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mossivo1986
01-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Hello all,

Most of you know me from the land-still thread as I've been piloting that particular brand of awesome for quite a while; however, times as they are I have adapted to the current meta-game with the current list thanks in large part to buddies Paul Kim and Spencer Hayes from team technology.

Back-story
Paul, Spencer, and I are testing before the Meandeck Open in november of 09, when paul mentions that he is sick of playing 60 card play bad spells and hope to win.dec. He wants to play something UGw that features noble hierarch qasali pridemage goyf knight of reliquary vendillion clique with the mana denial package of daze and waste. Initially I laugh, crushing his list with Landstill 3-1. His problem was that he was running counterbalance/ top in this list and it slowed him down.

a few weeks later...
I call Paul and he mentions that he and Spencer have not only Re-tooled the deck, but it's doing fantastic in the current meta-game.

Version 2.0


White Splash Tempo Thresh
2 misty
2 flooded
2 windswept
1/1/1 Basics (bant)
3 trop
3 tundra
4 waste

4 noble
4 qasali
4 Goyf
3 v. clique
2 Knight of the reliquary

4 force
4 daze
4 spell pierce

4 stp

4 bs
4 ponder

sb:
2/2 blue blast
2 teeg
2 path
2 needle
2 relic
1 tormod's
2 grip

Famous!
Legacy's Allure- Exploring Tempo Bant (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18235_Legacys_Allure_Exploring_Tempo_Bant.html)

I was shocked to see Paul and Spencer release the deck so quickly. I placed it on the back-burner along with my other pet decks UWb Wish Still, Wu Enchantress (Team Left-Field) and T.ezzeret C.ombo S.tax (idea also from T.L.F.)

The Call
So last week I call Paul and tell him I'm sick of my current meta-game of all fish style decks. I want to play W/ Tempo Thresh for reals. I tell him i've done a substantial amount of testing in the meta-game and i'm calling to see if he has any more match-up analysis that I don't know about or alterations that I don't have. He gives me the following.


White Splash Tempo Thresh

Lands: 19
2 misty
2 flooded
2 windswept
1/1/1 Basics (bant)
3 trop
3 tundra
4 waste

Creatures:18
4 noble
4 qasali
4 Goyf
2 v. clique
2 Knight of the reliquary
2 Rhox Warmonk

Permission: 11
4 force
4 daze
3 spell pierce

Removal: 4
4 stp

Draw/Kantrip: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
2/2 blue blast
4 relic or 3/1 samurai of the pale curtain/ relic
2 path
2 grip
3 needle

Fast Forward to the tourney
The room is small with only 15 or so peeps. Normally we get access of 25, but post Christmas it's been lagging. Hopefully this report attracts some more. All I have to do is dodge the 1 Ichorid pilot (my team-mate) also known as Jurda here.

r1: L.E.D.-less Ichorid
Are you kidding me? First round? Fine. He wins the die roll...
g1:
I get online quickly, counter his breakthrough, lay goyf, waste city of brass, pummel him to about 14, and he takes over the board with 2/2 zombies, which have a hankering for some Moss-ass.

g2: sb:
+4 relic
-3 spell pierce -1 noble

I'm unsure if this is the correct side-boarding plan, but I assume it's not a terrible one. We both mul. and keep at 6.
I have a semi fast start, and end up v cliquing him into city of brass number 3 and pithing needle on relic. I get lucky and race him with clique to 0 life. :)

g3: I offer the draw he thinks looks at the meta and bites. It appears as if were in good shape in this meta-game. Whew, I am all totes megotes now.

0-0-1

Since I have about 25 minutes left in the round an most everyone is still playing (something i'm not really used to playing landstill) I check out the entire meta-game. I think to myself, wow what an advantage this is. Something you all probobly don't know about me is that i've never piloted a creature deck in sanctioned play. I've done my fare share of testing, but we all know thats a hell of a lot different. So I scout the entire damn meta-game. Since there is only about 15 people I go and have a smoke afterwords.


r2: Faerie Stompy I win the roll
g1: I take sometime before we cut to consider my sideboarding strategy against him. I saw his last round and so I know he's piloting Faerie Stompy from the scouting. I decide that i'm siding out cliques and rhox warmonks for 2 path 2 grip. I figured this match-up was heavily in my favor.

I open with the following: 1 fetch 1 wasteland 1 noble 1 qasali 1 spell pierce 1 daze 1 brainstorm. Keep! He casts a turn 2 trinket with city of traitors, I Ok it and waste his city of traitors play noble number 2, and swing with 5/5 qasali, pridemage. He takes 15 eventually before realizing that hes at 10 instead of 12. He quickly goes into protection mode grabbing second mage for the 0/6 0cc goyf blocking wall. I stp said wall and smack him to death. He tries to cast sower of temp, but I force it. Swinging in for lethal the following round.
g2:
-2 v clique
-2 rhox

+2 path
+2 grip

He challices for 1 on t2, followed by land issues, and I run him over with goyf math. (goyf+goyf+goyf=win)

1-0-1

r3. Merfolk
g1: I win the roll with a nice opener of spell pierce forest noble hierarch force and maybe daze? I pierce his t2 vial, force a goyf through, and race him and his 3 lords and a Silvergill Adept. (he has 1 of each lord) Goyfs are 4/5's I go all in with him at 5 and he chumps with 2 lords, if he cracks another lord he wins, he doesn't and conceits to g1 goyf math.

g2:
sb:
-3 spell pierce
+2 path
+1 needle

He starts with island cursecatcher and procedes to stall the next couple of turns. (Apparently his hand was island cursecatcher standstill loa silvergill.) he draws vial, but presents no business and I run him over with Rhox warmonk and a goyf.

2-0-1

r4. Faerie sly (new Team-mate) I win the roll (both mull. to 6)
g1. What you need to know is this is a deck that runs 4 mishra 4 muta tricks with faeries, and runs 2 sower 2 vensor 2 vendillion clique with standstill.
I'm alittle worried because it's difficult to read his draws. qasali pridemage takes it 4/4 (noble exalted) as he draws nothing but lands apparently.

g2: ( I mull to 5, him 6.)
sb:
-2 clique
-2 pierce

+2 grip
+2 needle

I realize about half way through our game 2 that he has sided creature heavy and thus my sideboarding strategy is incorrect. He ends up guilded draking a goyf, but realizes it was a mistake when I beat him in the head with a 5/5 drake (exalted) down to 1 life. He then bounces it, and I almost win if it weren't for those blasted kids! No really, I end up with a board position at 3 with triple noble hierarch and top decking nothing. He sees sower venser with riptide lab and its all over.

g3. Since I realized i'm a dumb-ass (we both mull. to 6)
sb:
I change back to the original decklist and procede as follows:
-3 pierce
+2 path
+1 pithing
I'm on the play. Stuff gets countered I play threats, he counters some, I waste some lands, eventually I have 4 cards in hand. I have the option of dropping goyf or knight (knight would be a 5/5 goyf would be a 5/6) I drop knight (hes playing snare, and he has 6 cards in hand) knight lands, he taps out for venser with lab in play, meets for removing ponder. Goyf lands, he casts jitte cloudof-faeries, standstill, I smash he doesnt block, he attacks I stp, he looses because jitte is terrible on its own.)

Props/ shout outs
Recognizing incorrect sideboarding plan in finals
Paul and Spencer: We're all taking this to the gp right?
Joe Urda and Dan Buzzy: Team WhoDatNinja 1st,2nd, and 4th what? what?
Clementz: because you let me borrow deez tings called magic cards.
UofM: Goblue! Nice win over Ucon men's bb!
MTG special edition deck box for winning tourney!

Slops
buying 2x gold ion deck boxes the week of the tourney... Gave 1 to Joe for doing well, and a playmat the day before. You better buy gold sleeves!

Not playing samurai of the pale curtain in the board. Should have.... But in the long run the team did better and I still won!

no top 4. Come on guys im tired of playing swiss, lets finish with t4 and top8's for sanctioned recoreds jeeze!

Eldariel
01-19-2010, 04:41 PM
Lotsa blue you killed. Seems like a decent list; sort of an UGW Beatdown-deck, really; doesn't fiddle around with control, just lays down the beats and counters the few relevant card opponent plays FTW. The gameplan seems quite different from traditional Tempo Thresh, but it seems servicable in the role it has.

Good job; of course, you beat probably the only Faerie Stompy player left in that particular corner of the world which deserves frowns. Also, pity there was no Top 4/8; woulda been interesting to read of few more games. Either way, good showing for the first run.


By the way, I was paid to advertise Abyssal Persecutor. Abyssal Persecutor is totally gonna ruin your deck! A flying wall that prevents you from losing; how do you kill yourself then?!

deadlock
01-19-2010, 04:53 PM
First of congratz on doing good goyf math.

I have a couple of questions, as i like the concept of Ugw Tempo ***** quite a bit, but i am not sure if this or New Horizons (more lands and more big beats) is the right approach.

The questions:
- Do you think 4 Noble Hierarch is the right number? Its not needed in every matchup and seeing two in the early stages of the game may be unattractive, similiar to seeing two Vials in some decks (not completly filled with creatures like Goblins).

- Why run Relic over Crypt? It can hurt both Goyf and Knight, the only advantage i see is the first ability and that it replacces itself.

- Where you satisfied with the Needles over lets say Engineerd Explosives or any other SB card.

mossivo1986
01-19-2010, 05:05 PM
I have a couple of questions, as i like the concept of Ugw Tempo ***** quite a bit, but i am not sure if this or New Horizons (more lands and more big beats) is the right approach.

I think this model is probobly the best currently because it has the ability to lay an aweful quick clock on the decks that matter in this format. Sacrificing some overall power for speed and denial seems to me like a stronger plan right now.


The questions:
- Do you think 4 Noble Hierarch is the right number? Its not needed in every matchup and seeing two in the early stages of the game may be unattractive, similiar to seeing two Vials in some decks (not completly filled with creatures like Goblins).


I was blessed with Noble in most games and was never dissapointed save one select situation where I had already sided incorrectly (r4 g2). At that point the game could have gone either way. Yes it was a dead card in the end, but when he played guilded drake on me and took goyf, it was all inside smiles.



- Why run Relic over Crypt? It can hurt both Goyf and Knight, the only advantage i see is the first ability and that it replacces itself.

I'm not the one backing this, but if I had to go on the back of Paul's advice at the present time i'd probobly run samurai of the pale curtain. It seems like a much stronger piece of hate then either relic or tormod's and I think i'll play 3/1 with relic in the flex. The only reason I would play relic again at the 3 slot is if I expected high ammounts of tempo thresh because it just beats the tar out of them.


- Where you satisfied with the Needles over lets say Engineerd Explosives or any other SB card.

Don't get me wrong, engineered explosives is a great card, but needle is reserved for 2 decks and the obvious (if its crazy side it in) matchups. Those matchups are gobbos and 43land, but thats notall so yes 3 needle seems like the right approach to me. I think everything I've talked to Paul about has been spot on. Obviously k grip is substantially stronger in that specific flext slot, and in order to beat ichorid you need minimum 4 removal. So everything else is self explanatory.

Phoenix Ignition
01-19-2010, 06:24 PM
Nice deck and results. I gotta say though, after playing with it a couple times you need new sideboard graveyard hate. Samurai + KotR = wtf? Relic + goyf + KotR = wtf?

I could be skewed because my only loss was to reanimator, but I think you just flat out want Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, and at most 1 Relic unless you have some insider information on what you're going to run into and Samurai somehow blows them out of the water.

mossivo1986
01-19-2010, 06:41 PM
To me if you board in samurai in the chances that your winning the matchup anyways is probobly greater based on your exalted triggers etc. One is not limited to knight of the reliquary or Goyf, and to be honest goyf is probobly one of the worst creatures in the deck based on that all it does is attack and block. It wins its spot because of its efficiency, nothing else. a 2/3 goyf with samurai seems like a fare trade off against the decks you want see samurai in, aka ichorid etc.

Phoenix Ignition
01-19-2010, 07:00 PM
But isn't using 3 slots of dedicated sideboard graveyard hate bad if it doesn't really stop Loam or Reanimator?

Because Samurai is awful at those.

mossivo1986
01-19-2010, 07:15 PM
But isn't using 3 slots of dedicated sideboard graveyard hate bad if it doesn't really stop Loam or Reanimator?

Because Samurai is awful at those.

Fair enough. Suggestion Please?

Phoenix Ignition
01-19-2010, 07:20 PM
Fair enough. Suggestion Please?

:tongue: The hard part, I wasn't really ready for this.

Probably just use a mix of 3 Crypts and 1 Relic? Maybe 2 and 2 if you think more people are playing aggro loam. Ravenous Trap isn't good against Entomb so I wouldn't run it right now. Also, I like the Nogoyf's take on sideboard hate, spreading it out with 1-ofs of different cards. Wheel of Sun and Moon can seal a win against slow rolling decks, while Tormod's is the best to hit 1st turn. Really hard to say what the "best" is though.

mossivo1986
01-19-2010, 07:25 PM
I think i'd rather have the 3/1 approach. It seems to me that it promotes the most answers for the mana denial approach ala snap daze your shit, win the game. etc. etc. Also I just kind of run over aggro loam, and ichorid is the worst matchup. So tormod's it is.

Volt
01-19-2010, 07:58 PM
Nice job with the tournament. I've been working on a Tempo Bant list, so I have some questions for you:

1) Did you test Nimble Mongoose and decide it wasn't good enough? I'm inclined to run Mongoose over Pridemage, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

2) Any comments on Vendilion Clique vs. Knight of the Reliquary? Has one stood out as being better than the other?

3) How good were the maindeck Spell Pierces really? You sided them out a lot.

Hitman82
01-19-2010, 10:09 PM
But isn't using 3 slots of dedicated sideboard graveyard hate bad if it doesn't really stop Loam or Reanimator?

Because Samurai is awful at those.

I explained to Joel that Relic is far superior against Life from the Loam decks than Samurai. I suggested Samurai because he was worried about Ichorid and Samurai is a lock and a creature all in one. Your 'Goyfs are still 3/4 without exalted triggers even with a Samurai out since it only removes permanents. If you're concerned about Life from the Loam decks, play Relic. If you're worried about Ichorid, make them fight for their wins by beating a one card lock. If you're worried about both, diversify the sideboard. This was a small event so those were my suggestions. Regarding Relic, we're not worried about shrinking a two-of Knight or Tarmagoyf because, with eight exalted triggers in the deck, all our creatures are large.

To answer the question about Hierarch's effectiveness, he's a blow out. The most amazing play is to lead with turn one Hierarch, Daze your opponent's spell and still play a Tarmagoyf on turn two. Hierarch makes you largely immune to Wasteland and develops your mana so well that you can play Wasteland yourself. The combination of Hierarch, Daze and Wasteland is the reason to play the deck. Exalted triggers are the nuts. They make you win 'goyf standoffs, make your evasive Cliques bigger than they would normally be in order to race decks with Tombstalker, make your Rhox War Monks insane(r), etc.

Purgatory
01-20-2010, 03:06 PM
@The report: Nicely done, I like it a lot. Thanks for sharing it with us.

@The decklist: Exactly what makes it "Tempo" Thresh, rather than just Thresh?

Hitman82
01-20-2010, 04:58 PM
@The decklist: Exactly what makes it "Tempo" Thresh, rather than just Thresh?

You gain tempo when you stop your opponent from doing what he wants to do while you advance your own gameplan. This list develops tempo by abusing synergies with Noble Hierarch. The synergy between Noble Hierarch, Daze, Wasteland and, to a lesser degree, Spell Pierce are what gain you tempo because you're stopping your opponent from developing while you develop like normal. Other tempo decks try to do this simply by slowing the development of their opponent's deck with cards like Stifle and Wasteland. Wastelanding someone's land doesn't generate tempo because you haven't developed your manabase with the land you played. However, with Noble Hierarch, you're able to continue to develop your manabase while attacking your opponent's at the same time. Same with the countermagic. With your increasing resources and your opponent's decreasing resources, you continue to put pressure on with lots of creatures that are mana efficient for what they do. The Exalted mechanic has a lot to do with the efficiency of this deck's attack step. Your creatures generally have more value in this deck than in others because of all the exalted triggers. There's nothing Threshold about this deck really. It doesn't need seven cards in the graveyard to do anything.

jeanbathez
01-21-2010, 04:42 AM
You gain tempo when you stop your opponent from doing what he wants to do while you advance your own gameplan. This list develops tempo by abusing synergies with Noble Hierarch. The synergy between Noble Hierarch, Daze, Wasteland and, to a lesser degree, Spell Pierce are what gain you tempo because you're stopping your opponent from developing while you develop like normal. Other tempo decks try to do this simply by slowing the development of their opponent's deck with cards like Stifle and Wasteland. Wastelanding someone's land doesn't generate tempo because you haven't developed your manabase with the land you played. However, with Noble Hierarch, you're able to continue to develop your manabase while attacking your opponent's at the same time. Same with the countermagic. With your increasing resources and your opponent's decreasing resources, you continue to put pressure on with lots of creatures that are mana efficient for what they do. The Exalted mechanic has a lot to do with the efficiency of this deck's attack step. Your creatures generally have more value in this deck than in others because of all the exalted triggers. There's nothing Threshold about this deck really. It doesn't need seven cards in the graveyard to do anything.

Thanks for the good explanation, wouldn't stifle work in this deck too f.e instead of spell pierce ?

Hitman82
01-21-2010, 05:20 PM
Spell Pierce serves a very important role in the deck. In general, your creatures are strictly better than your opponents, whether it's because of the quality of them or simply all the exalted triggers. What you're worried about are non-creature spells that can slip through the cracks and overwhelm you. Even Spell Pierce on an opponent's Swords or Force of Will can be absolutely backbreaking.

Stifle is a hit or miss card. I've never been happy with it in a deck. The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetchland to Stifle. Your opponent just gained tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetchland. Besides, when people see Daze and/or Wasteland they're probably assuming you play Stifle or playing around it just in case you do anyway.

jeanbathez
01-22-2010, 03:19 AM
Spell Pierce serves a very important role in the deck. In general, your creatures are strictly better than your opponents, whether it's because of the quality of them or simply all the exalted triggers. What you're worried about are non-creature spells that can slip through the cracks and overwhelm you. Even Spell Pierce on an opponent's Swords or Force of Will can be absolutely backbreaking.

Stifle is a hit or miss card. I've never been happy with it in a deck. The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetchland to Stifle. Your opponent just gained tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetchland. Besides, when people see Daze and/or Wasteland they're probably assuming you play Stifle or playing around it just in case you do anyway.

O.k. i think i got it, last weekend i played Candian ******** and played 3 Rounds against deck without duals and 2 of them without fetchlands :rolleyes:

But is wasteland (and Daze) enough to make the spell pierce good ?
I played bant Survival and know how much pressure can come with exalted even with a pridemage attacking....Is that the tempoadavantage from this deck, so that the opponent can't wait until he has enough Mana for sword and to pay for spell pierce ?

I hope my questions aren't too ordinary ?

Edit : Is here a primer where this deck is dicussed ?

Jak
01-22-2010, 03:39 AM
You don't have to support Spell Pierce at all. It is a fine card on its own that can easily function the way you want it to without the addition of Wasteland and Daze. It does, however, get better when those two compliment it.

For example, Daze does not have to be played in conjunction with Wasteland, as you can see in CounterTop lists and the like. However, it does get better with it because Wasteland keeps Daze "turned on" for a longer period of time. The same is true for Spell Pierce.

Cenarius
01-22-2010, 04:56 AM
I'm sorry but isn't this just a BANT agro list?

Playing Wasteland and spell pierce is not the only reason to call a deck "tempo". The deck looks nice, though it's hard to call a deck "tempo" playing Swords to Plowshares putting your opponent on 26 life total.

Volt
01-22-2010, 09:55 AM
You don't have to support Spell Pierce at all. It is a fine card on its own that can easily function the way you want it to without the addition of Wasteland and Daze. It does, however, get better when those two compliment it.

I disagree. I keep wanting Spell Pierce to be good, but each time I try playing it maindeck, I end up being pretty disappointed. Once again, I'll note that Mossivo sided them out in 3 of his 4 matches. It seems to me that Spell Snare is still a better option.

Nightmare
01-22-2010, 10:03 AM
I disagree. I keep wanting Spell Pierce to be good, but each time I try playing it maindeck, I end up being pretty disappointed. Once again, I'll note that Mossivo sided them out in 3 of his 4 matches. It seems to me that Spell Snare is still a better option.

I respectfully disagree. I've had a lot of people walk blindly into Spell Pierce and be stopped cold by it, where Spell Snare wouldn't have done a thing.

It's also extremely relevant to note that vs. any blue deck, I'll gladly trade a Pierce for a Brainstorm - something I hesitate to do with any other counterspell other than REB. With the tight mana constraints of most "control" decks in Legacy, they really can't afford to miss their cantrips, and often this can be nearly as devastating as Stifling a fetchland activation.

Volt
01-22-2010, 10:15 AM
I respectfully disagree. I've had a lot of people walk blindly into Spell Pierce and be stopped cold by it, where Spell Snare wouldn't have done a thing.

It's also extremely relevant to note that vs. any blue deck, I'll gladly trade a Pierce for a Brainstorm - something I hesitate to do with any other counterspell other than REB. With the tight mana constraints of most "control" decks in Legacy, they really can't afford to miss their cantrips, and often this can be nearly as devastating as Stifling a fetchland activation.

Hmm. This might be a case where a card is better in practice than it is in testing, because of the "Surprise!" factor. Also, it's clear that Spell Pierce is better when you draw it early. My frustration with it is when I draw it in the midgame, when my opponent has 3 or 4 lands, and I can't stop that Plow.

deadlock
01-22-2010, 10:53 AM
Some points:

-Concerning Stifle:
I agree that it would be inferior to other choices in this deck. In my opinion Stifle is replaced by Knight in this deck, by just being able to get more Wastelands in one game.

-Concerning Spell Pierce:
Besides that i agree with Nightmare, you also have to look at what kinds of cards you want to stop with your third counter. Compared to Canadian where Spell Snare makes much sense, as they want to stop opposing Goyfs and Counterbalances (among others ofc), this deck does not care about these two cards in the same way. Reasons should be obvious.
My main concern when playing this pile is that either one of my creatures gets removed by STP or that my opponent lands something nasty (none creature), which i cant handle - so Pierce is superiour.

Sidenote

It's also extremely relevant to note that vs. any blue deck, I'll gladly trade a Pierce for a Brainstorm - something I hesitate to do with any other counterspell other than REB. With the tight mana constraints of most "control" decks in Legacy, they really can't afford to miss their cantrips, and often this can be nearly as devastating as Stifling a fetchland activation.

Interesting point, up to now i am not 100% sure when it is appropriate to counter a cantrip. In play i think that i have to let it resolve as it could be followed up by a more threating spell like Senseis / STP whatever, so i hestitate to use the Pierce on a cantrip. If you could drop some additional remarks about it - would be nice.

-Control matchup:
Its clear that the control matchup (having Landstill and Itf in mind) is not that good, as its difficult to stick a creature against them and keep there card advantage engines in check at the same time. Till now i think that siding in Loam / Crucible and Wastelock them is the best approach.
If someone has any other tips i would be glad to here them.

-Tribal matchup - Elves:
This sound a little bit strange, but i actually had difficulties beating them. While he couldnt attack me for quite some time because of tarmos and other creatures, he still was able to get an insane amount of creatures on the board. Especially Perfect and that little insect, which can return elves to his hand gave me trouble (forcing me to waste a STP on this guy).
I had only one EE in the board during that match and i upped to count to three afterwards - any other ideas what to bring in against them?
Beeing able to punch through the line of creatures is key i figured, so i value Terravore (which i run) quite high in this matchup.

Nightmare
01-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Hmm. This might be a case where a card is better in practice than it is in testing, because of the "Surprise!" factor. Also, it's clear that Spell Pierce is better when you draw it early. My frustration with it is when I draw it in the midgame, when my opponent has 3 or 4 lands, and I can't stop that Plow.

But Spell Snare isn't stopping that Plow either. And comparing the two, Pierce would have stopped it early, but Snare never will.

In this deck, where you're basically guaranteed to win the Goyf war if it comes to their resolved guys vs. your resolved guys, you're much more worried about their spells than their creatures. Pierce gives you a leg up in the early- to mid-game in that battle, where Snare may or may not.


Interesting point, up to now i am not 100% sure when it is appropriate to counter a cantrip. In play i think that i have to let it resolve as it could be followed up by a more threating spell like Senseis / STP whatever, so i hestitate to use the Pierce on a cantrip. If you could drop some additional remarks about it - would be nice.


It's a complicated question, and has a lot to do with elements outside the obvious - I'd say it's one of the more difficult decisions to make in Legacy, honestly.

First off, I will never trade tempo, go down cards, or pay extra mana to counter Brainstorm. This means, Daze will never counter it, Force of Will will never counter it - except in very rare circumstances - like when it's the only card in their hand.

However, if I have the opportunity to trade 1 mana and 1 card for their Brainstorm, especially early in the game, I will do it most of the time. Brainstorm is deceiving - although it is "just a cantrip" its function is much more profound than that of Opt, or Ponder, or even Top (although Top is much closer in power level in the short term, and much higher in the long term). The manipulation of the cards in their hand, and the ability to trade crap for good, followed by shuffling the crap away, is unparalleled in the game. It's far, far more relevant against decks where tutoring is important, like Tendrils or Reanimator. In those decks, stopping them from putting cards back can be gamewinning in itself, not to mention the possibility of denying a player access to land for a draw step or two - although that's the "perfect world" scenario, not the norm.

Additionally, my opinion of the play varies based on the opponent. A very strong opponent is actually much more vulnerable to the play than an average player. They're more likely to recognize the ability of Brainstorm to dig them out of a hole, and use it when important, rather than firing it off for no good reason. If they use it early, it's either to get rid of junk, or to find the missing pieces. I'll gladly deny them that.

Attitude also plays into it. That of course gets into the ability to read body language, etc. which I don't really want to get into at this point.

I strongly believe I could write a whole article on when you counter Brainstorm and when you don't - so I'll just keep it at the points I've already made, and hopefully you get some insight from there.

Volt
01-22-2010, 11:42 AM
But Spell Snare isn't stopping that Plow either. And comparing the two, Pierce would have stopped it early, but Snare never will.

In this deck, where you're basically guaranteed to win the Goyf war if it comes to their resolved guys vs. your resolved guys, you're much more worried about their spells than their creatures. Pierce gives you a leg up in the early- to mid-game in that battle, where Snare may or may not.

Yeah, I understand that I win goyf wars anyway. I also understand what Spell Pierce is trying to do. It just doesn't seem to do it very consistently when I play it. Also, I hate to keep coming back to this, but Mossivo sided Pierces out in 3 of his 4 matchups. So how good are they, REALLY?

Before anyone decides to go outside of the context of my comments, let me acknowledge up front that Spell Pierce is a fine sideboard card. My comments are in regards to Spell Pierce as a maindeck card. I think it's a "hit or miss" card that misses too often when applied so broadly.

Nightmare
01-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Yeah, I understand that I win goyf wars anyway. I also understand what Spell Pierce is trying to do. It just doesn't seem to do it very consistently when I play it. Also, I hate to keep coming back to this, but Mossivo sided Pierces out in 3 of his 4 matchups. So how good are they, REALLY?

Before anyone decides to go outside of the context of my comments, let me acknowledge up front that Spell Pierce is a fine sideboard card. My comments are in regards to Spell Pierce as a maindeck card. I think it's a "hit or miss" card that misses too often when applied so broadly.The fact that Mossivo sided them out so much doesn't really mean they're not good. I mean, I played six rounds with 3 maindeck yesterday, and sided 0 out the entire event. It's also possible (and in my eyes, likely) that he sided incorrectly.

For example - Round 1 (ichorid), I would have sided out 2 Clique and 2 KoR for the Relics. The Pierces still have the ability to counter the explosive starts Ichorid has, and can potentially stop a Dread Return if its early or in conjunction with Wasteland.

In the other two rounds he sided them out against heavy creature decks. That's not exactly an accurate cross-section of the metagame. Sure, if your whole metagame is Merfolk, Elves, and Zoo, it may not be as good as another counter in its place - but the chances of you playing against all creature decks in a 6 or 8 round event (including t8, of course) are pretty slim.

Volt
01-22-2010, 12:09 PM
The fact that Mossivo sided them out so much doesn't really mean they're not good. I mean, I played six rounds with 3 maindeck yesterday, and sided 0 out the entire event. It's also possible (and in my eyes, likely) that he sided incorrectly.

For example - Round 1 (ichorid), I would have sided out 2 Clique and 2 KoR for the Relics. The Pierces still have the ability to counter the explosive starts Ichorid has, and can potentially stop a Dread Return if its early or in conjunction with Wasteland.

In the other two rounds he sided them out against heavy creature decks. That's not exactly an accurate cross-section of the metagame. Sure, if your whole metagame is Merfolk, Elves, and Zoo, it may not be as good as another counter in its place - but the chances of you playing against all creature decks in a 6 or 8 round event (including t8, of course) are pretty slim.

My particular metagame is heavy with CounterTop, Zoo, and Merfolk.

Anyway, maybe I haven't been giving Spell Pierce a fair shake. My experience with it has mostly been in playtesting, which is perhaps being skewed by the fact that the other side always knows when to bait it and when to play around it.

frogboy
01-22-2010, 02:23 PM
I would Daze the shit out of a Brainstorm after turn one and am seriously wondering why it's in your deck if you aren't making that trade. I almost never care if my fetchlands get Stifled either, so we might be on different wavelengths. I also think Daze is considerably worse than Snare and Pierce.

Pierce also seems fine against Merfolk when you're on the play, because you can get Vial, Standstill, and their Force when you play your trump. Daze is only better against Force, which isn't nearly as important as the first two.

OurSerratedDust
01-22-2010, 10:02 PM
Do you think there is a place for some sort of bounce (ie, rushing river, wipe away) in this sort of tempo build? You know, similar to Canadian Thresh.

Volt
01-22-2010, 10:37 PM
Do you think there is a place for some sort of bounce (ie, rushing river, wipe away) in this sort of tempo build? You know, similar to Canadian Thresh.

What would you want to bounce? You've got Pridemages to kill enchantments & artifacts, and Plows to kill critters. Canadian Thresh runs bounce spells because it doesn't really have any other choice.

Blitzbold
01-23-2010, 02:48 AM
I've also been working on Bant Tempo lately, but after playing Canadian for nearly a whole year my approch was a lot less creature-heavy. Instead, I've been opting for a disruption suite similar to Canadian, but maybe this was just by habit:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

Obviously, there isn't that much space left for as many creatures as you are running. My list doesn't contain the full 4 Ponder though, so in the end the difference might not be that big.

Shugyosha
01-23-2010, 09:46 AM
What would you want to bounce? You've got Pridemages to kill enchantments & artifacts, and Plows to kill critters. Canadian Thresh runs bounce spells because it doesn't really have any other choice.

Planeswalkers, Iona (W) and Humility are quite annoying to name a few. A resolved Counterbalance can also be quite good against its answer (Qasali). All these things can be countered by Pierce but sometimes such cards hit the board and the deck has a massive problem then. Its also better to bounce his blockers and swing for the win than Swords one and get chumped by another which can give the opponent up to two turns to dig for answers.
Instead of 3rd Clique or a Rhox War Monk I would rather play 1 Rushing River as versatile answer to almost every nonland-permanent. In a Tempodeck like this it can be seen as 5th Qasali effect and 5th Swordseffect. In Canadian Threshold a Rushing River often led me to winning the game.

Volt
01-25-2010, 11:56 AM
The fact that Mossivo sided them out so much doesn't really mean they're not good. I mean, I played six rounds with 3 maindeck yesterday, and sided 0 out the entire event. It's also possible (and in my eyes, likely) that he sided incorrectly.

For example - Round 1 (ichorid), I would have sided out 2 Clique and 2 KoR for the Relics. The Pierces still have the ability to counter the explosive starts Ichorid has, and can potentially stop a Dread Return if its early or in conjunction with Wasteland.

In the other two rounds he sided them out against heavy creature decks. That's not exactly an accurate cross-section of the metagame. Sure, if your whole metagame is Merfolk, Elves, and Zoo, it may not be as good as another counter in its place - but the chances of you playing against all creature decks in a 6 or 8 round event (including t8, of course) are pretty slim.

I've been doing some more testing of this deck (not the exact same build as the OP, but close enough) over the weekend, with a focus on rigorously testing Spell Pierce. Since so few people around here are ever willing to admit they're wrong, let me set the precedent: You were right, I was wrong. Spell Pierce is a fine choice for this deck. Before, I thought Spell Snare was clearly better, but now I think it's a very close call. Overall, I'm fairly impressed with the deck. Someone should write a primer.

Hitman82
01-25-2010, 05:12 PM
One day I'll get to it but I'm swamped right now. My team's been wanting me to write the primer on it for some time now, too. If enough people show interest in a primer, I'll get on it.

Shugyosha
01-25-2010, 08:20 PM
I played the deck yesterday in a 95ish people GPT Madrid Tournament as I really liked it in testing. I decided to play Version 2 (first list) with the following changes:

-1 Tropical Island
-1 Tundra
+1 Misty Rainforest
+1 Flooded Strand

-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Ponder
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

The added fetchlands are actually quite good as you always hit GW in turn 2 even without Hierarch and it makes the Knight bigger obv. Top for Ponder is just a personal thing, I never play 4 Ponder and the Top simply wins games if the opponent manages to drag out the game. Jitte's were solid when I drew them which happened rarely.

I won against ANT, Zoo and BGw Loam and lost to DDANT, Merfolk/w, Staff Elves and BGw Laompox. The last three decks are quite troublesome matchups and as I indicated I sadly never saw a Jitte against Merfolk and Elves which would have won easily.

All in all I feel the List has some problems to assemble a favorable boardposition. Exaltedtriggers are nice and all but a bear plus 3 triggers is simply not enough to race in many cases and under pressure Hierarch and Pridemage are exceptionally bad blockers. I always wanted more big creatures especially as it is rarely a problem to hit 1GW for Knight. This girl is really awesome in the deck.

I also think the cut down to 3 Pierce is wrong. It's a card we want to see consistantly in the earlygame and even in the lategame 2 Pierce still counter most non-creature spells. With more Knights the Jitte would be pushed into the board as 6-7 Swords are good but 4-5 Swords and 1-2 Jitte are simply better against decks with 20+ small beaters. Still have to think about what to cut for the 4th Pierce mostly likely Top/Ponder, I guess.

Volt
01-25-2010, 09:07 PM
All in all I feel the List has some problems to assemble a favorable boardposition. Exaltedtriggers are nice and all but a bear plus 3 triggers is simply not enough to race in many cases and under pressure Hierarch and Pridemage are exceptionally bad blockers. I always wanted more big creatures especially as it is rarely a problem to hit 1GW for Knight. This girl is really awesome in the deck.

I also think the cut down to 3 Pierce is wrong. It's a card we want to see consistantly in the earlygame and even in the lategame 2 Pierce still counter most non-creature spells. With more Knights the Jitte would be pushed into the board as 6-7 Swords are good but 4-5 Swords and 1-2 Jitte are simply better against decks with 20+ small beaters. Still have to think about what to cut for the 4th Pierce mostly likely Top/Ponder, I guess.

I agree that the primary weakness of the deck is that the Exalted creatures are bad blockers. The Cliques are bad blockers, too, which is one of the reasons I run War Monks in my list. 3 KotR's might be the right call. That bitch is strong.

Btw, try running 4 Ethersworn Canonist in your SB. That will go a long way towards solving the ANT and Elves matchups.

Here's my list:
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

deadlock
01-25-2010, 09:08 PM
All in all I feel the List has some problems to assemble a favorable boardposition. Exaltedtriggers are nice and all but a bear plus 3 triggers is simply not enough to race in many cases and under pressure Hierarch and Pridemage are exceptionally bad blockers. I always wanted more big creatures especially as it is rarely a problem to hit 1GW for Knight. This girl is really awesome in the deck.

I agree with you here and therefore i play a more New Horzion-like creature base with

3 Knight
2 Terravore

In my opinion Rhox Warmonk is a little underwhelming in terms of size compared to these two, his advantage is that he pitches to FoW and therefore adding to the blue count (also Zoo isnt really played heavily in my meta).
Also playing Clique pushes the deck to far in the position where you have great attack force, but cannot block anything. I may play it because Aggro Loam has somewhat reemerged.
I would love to go to 4 Knight and 3 Terravore, the problem i see that i would make me a little too dependent on the graveyard and that i run into trouble with overall slots and blue count.

Not sure about 4th Pierce currently, has to test more.

Shugyosha
01-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Well I really like Clique's but I guess you are right and their slots should be used for big creatures, too. I have recently played Lorescale Coatl in CounterTop again and it is also an option as the snake grows quickly even without Top and it doesn't need the graveyard. People underestimate Coatl on paper but in actual games you never know if the player behind Coatl has a Brainstorm in hand and many people tend to play carefully when it hits the table.

As for the Sideboard: Yes Canonist seems to be better or even Meddling Mage as I really disliked Gaddock Teeg. Legendary sucked and having a Force in hand when my ANT opponent played Deathmark sucked even more. The problem with Canonist is that it doesn't do a thing against Controldecks or Natural Order. My test matches showed that I can live with the controlmatchup (w/o Teeg) but NO Prog Countertop seemed to be a quite difficult matchup because it runs Hierarch against manadenial, the same creature base and Balance/NO as mustcounters. Maybe with more CMC 3 beaters the MU percentage shifts a bit.

Sideboard looks like this then for an unknown meta:

2 Grip
3 BEB
2 Path
2 Jitte
3 Crypt (I never want a Relic in this deck)
3 Canonist or Meddling Mage

Misplayer
01-26-2010, 07:57 AM
I have a quick question: how much better is Spell Pierce/Daze/Wasteland than the Survival package? This deck seems to play moderately similarly to Bant Survival, but you have the opportunity to blow out opponents with mana denial and counterspells instead of with an unfair enchantment. Is this approach distinctly better, or is it just that not everyone wants to play Survival?

I'm also not sure why basic Plains is necessary when you play 4 Hierarch and you have such diverse color requirements in your creature base. It's pretty useless in your opening hand if you don't draw another colored source and would almost always be better as a Savannah or Tundra I would think.

mossivo1986
04-19-2010, 01:33 AM
I didn't even realize people had posted that much in this thread, rofl.

Misplayer:
I didn't like Bant survival when I ran it in a tourney a couple of months ago. I felt like the lack of a pressure element really set your gameplan back.

I ran a model of bant survival that ran very close to this list, but sacrificed most of the "tutor" slots to simply be more redundant. It didn't work as well as I'd hoped. Every time I dropped a survival I wanted it to be a threat "knight, Vendillion, Rhox, etc."

As for now the Archtype is quite solid and minus a few match-ups I really think the list is quite sturdy against the current meta-game. I encourage all to test it.


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


EE in the side was to hunt down decks that run mother of runes, as well as having an additional sideboard card against dredge.

Wargoos
04-19-2010, 08:22 AM
EE in the side was to hunt down decks that run mother of runes, as well as having an additional sideboard card against dredge.

Finally some1 came to realize the danger that is UWT (which other deck runs mom? oh wait DnT).
Pi4meterftw was right all the time! His deck is crushing the meta balls of this format we have to be prepared!!!!!!11!!
.
.
.
not.

Anyways I really like the EE in the side but dislike to have just 1 of it.
How good were Needle for you? I remember it to be a card that was good in multiples but sucked so hard all alone and therefore 2 Needles is a bit low for my taste. I think it's either 3 or 0. Also if you cut needles you can add some more EE which is the better call.
Also I don't like relic at all currently. The activation cost mattered in some games against reanimator and I think you really should give reanimator kuddos for being a good deck atm and prepare properly for gy based strategies. Crypt does it's job against dredge and reanimator, so why not playing those?

Mark Sun
04-19-2010, 09:49 AM
I think the 1-of EE is fine, it can maybe go up to two.

The thing is, EE becomes incredibly symmetric in this deck and it's not something that you want. At 3, you lose KotR, VClique, and RWM. At 2, you lose Pridemage and Goyf. I know at 1 it seems that you're not losing a lot when you nuke your Hierarchs, but they are fairly important in this deck, allowing you access to a t2 bomb creature on the play, the ability to play Daze on the draw, and fixing mana for dudes. Also gains value because you're playing 4 Wastelands and do need mana.

I played this deck last week at a local, I went 3-0-1 beating Zoo, WW, and a homebrew Bitterblossom/Standstill control deck. The deck plays very well, and has an incredibly threat density. So far, B/R Goblins has been a pain to playagainst (as I imagine most Tribal is, played against Elf Survival and it's pretty swingy) but otherwise it's been great in testing.

mossivo1986
04-19-2010, 12:45 PM
Tribal matchups are pretty bland for the most part.

Goblins you side in your 4 blasts 2 needle 2 path
zoo 4 blast 2 path 1 ee
merfolk 2 path 1 ee

Nessaja
04-19-2010, 02:26 PM
-Tribal matchup - Elves:
This sound a little bit strange, but i actually had difficulties beating them. While he couldnt attack me for quite some time because of tarmos and other creatures, he still was able to get an insane amount of creatures on the board. Especially Perfect and that little insect, which can return elves to his hand gave me trouble (forcing me to waste a STP on this guy).
I had only one EE in the board during that match and i upped to count to three afterwards - any other ideas what to bring in against them?
Beeing able to punch through the line of creatures is key i figured, so i value Terravore (which i run) quite high in this matchup.
This doesn't sound strange at all, Elves (especially the aggro version, not the combo version) preys on exactly this kind of deck. You need to splash red if you want to improve this type of matchup, really.

mossivo1986
04-19-2010, 02:41 PM
While I agree that aggro elves is a tough matchup, its not at all impossible to win. Also note, aggro elves always seems to be just a tier away from being worth playing.