[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Aggro_zombies]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/AreoCrunch/Loam.jpg

What is Aggro Loam?

Modern Aggro Loam strategies developed from the CALS deck from Extended seasons past, but their true spiritual predecessor is the old Wildfire list of the Urza’s / Tempest Standard format, known famously as being nothing but mana and bombs. Aggro Loam also blends elements of midrange control decks such as the Invasion-era Extended versions of The Rock and it is remarkably similar to modern Standard Jund lists in terms of redundancy, card advantage, and power. The final product of all of this is an aggro-control deck capable of both destructive board control and walloping beats.

Aggro Loam builds have existed in the format for a while but for a long time saw more play in Europe than in America; while popular in 2008 and early 2009, the ascendancy of Counterbalance in March of that year made Aggro Loam a less attractive choice as the deck lacked compelling tools to answer Counterbalance. While the matchup was not impossible, it is probable that many players shied away from the deck in favor of something with a much stronger game against Counterbalance. As the year progressed, Merfolk became the default answer to Countertop’s strong GP performance, but then lost ground to Zoo as the meta began to shift rapidly to decks that could answer the previous tournament’s winners. By late fall of 2009, Zoo began to underperform as Counterbalance builds started using Progenitus as a way to effectively address what had previously been a rough matchup. As the meta began to diversify once again, the last major tournament of the year took place in St. Louis – and it was won by Pat McGregor and his Aggro Loam deck.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terminate
3 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Firespout
4 Zuran Orb
3 Krosan Grip
1 Thorn of Amethyst

Pat McGregor’s list marks a break with what many might regard as the “traditional” Aggro Loam build using Burning Wish and multiple Devastating Dreams in the main. Several factors had combined to make such an approach less attractive, if not outright obsolete:

- The speed of the format, coupled with the popularity of blue and Spell Snare specifically, make these cards much less attractive.
- Traditional builds of Aggro Loam have a difficult time answering a live Counterbalance and lose a lot of steam when forced to play through it.
- Graveyard hate began to rise in the format as Ichorid became popular in the middle of the year, and the M10 rules changes made Burning Wish much worse at circumventing it.
- Aggro Loam’s primary route to victory – winning through strong internal synergy – fell under siege from several sides: on the one hand, blue disruption was particularly good at unraveling key components of the synergy tapestry, while on the other hand, several decks with equally strong synergy began to appear in the format.

Pat seems to have realized these points and addressed them by running more proactive, pinpoint removal spells and using the deck’s redundancy and to cover its potential softness to hate. While the deck loses some of the internal synergy that made Aggro Loam so impressive before, it makes up for it with raw power.

After McGregor's finish, several players (including myself) piloted similar or identical lists to decent finishes in subsequent tournaments for the next several months. A Russian Naya list, eschewing black for Knight of the Reliquary and Swords to Plowshares, placed just outside a combo-heavy top 8 at GP Madrid several months later, but flew largely under the radar; interest in the deck waned and it stopped making appearances in American tournaments. Mystical Tutor's banning on the eve of GP Columbus did almost nothing to revitalize interest in the deck, and the aftermath of that tournament made the situation worse as Survival rose to become Legacy's preeminent strategy in America (followed, belatedly, by good showings in Europe). Survival was a better midrange deck in virtually every way: it had more flexibility, more mid- and late-game power, and more ability to dodge or neutralize hate. Aggro Loam completely disappeared.

It would take both the banning of Survival in the final days of 2010 and the printing of Mental Misstep in the spring of 2011 to push the deck back into the limelight. Mental Misstep was a game-changer in many ways: not only did it increase the power of various midrange blue decks (decent matchups for Aggro Loam), it also slowed the format down to the point where a deck with a large amount of late-game plays could safely compete. Players looking for a deck free of one-drops, and therefore immune to an opponent's Misstep plan, brushed off McGregor-style Aggro Loam lists and updated them with the addition of cards like Punishing Fires and Sylvan Library. For the length of Misstep's legality in the format, Aggro Loam was a solid non-blue option.

However, Misstep got the axe at the next Banned and Restricted List update, and the format entered a period of drift. Many players assumed the format would revert to the way it was prior to Misstep's printing, but the Starcity Games circuit continued to be dominated by various blue decks well into the fall. Format inertia, and the development of other decks, caused Aggro Loam to slip back into fringe deck territory.

SCG: Los Angeles and The Major Rethink

On January 15th, 2012, SCG held one of its Opens in Los Angeles. While Maverick was the big winner at that tournament, Tony DeVeyra (Antonius) placed 12th with the first truly major, successful redesign of the deck since McGregor's list two years prior. First, the list he played:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Noxious Revivial
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Thoughtseize

Much of the deck's core remains the same, but a few key changes were made:

No more Chalice. I'll discuss the various arguments for and against Chalice later, but here I'd like to point out that removing Chalice opened Antonius up to running his own one-drops, giving him more early game plays.
Different creature configuration. Tarmogoyf has typically been on the weaker side in this deck; you can easily get him to about a 3/4, but vanilla 3/4s are just not what they used to be. Cutting into the Tarmogoyf numbers in favor of Scavenging Ooze gives the deck another large-ish creature as well as maindeck ways to deal with Snapcasters, Knights, Tarmogoyfs, and so on.
Streamlined spell slots. During the Mental Misstep era, players experimented with a variety of removal options, including Terminate and Punishing Fires, that gave the deck a more attrition-based control bent. Antonius's streamlined spell roster tilted the deck back in the direction of midrange aggro.
Expanded sideboard options. Noxious Revival in particular is interesting as a non-clunky, far cheaper Eternal Witness.

These changes allowed the deck to keep pace with a metagame dominated by decks capable of generating significant value in the early and mid-games through the use of powerful utility creatures (particularly Stoneforge Mystic, but also Snapcaster Mage, Mother of Runes, and the dork-heavy, GSZ-fueled Maverick lists). Removing Chalice and giving the deck more of a real curve allowed it to compete early without needing a Mox Diamond, but the deck lost very little power in the late game, Aggro Loam's traditional area of dominance.

The Current State of Things

If you're experimenting with Aggro Loam now, Antonius's list is a good place to start. It combines the rock-solid mana of the three-color versions with a consistent core of spells focused on power and card advantage. However, there are two other options available:

Four-color lists: Typically, these lists dip into white for Swords and Knight but stay in black for Dark Confidant and sometimes Maelstrom Pulse and sideboard options. While your spells are all very powerful, your mana generally isn't; you really need a Mox Diamond to effectively cast spells in a deck that wants to hit WGGRRRB in the course of a game.

Naya lists: I have yet to see these gain any traction outside of Russia, but it's worth mentioning them. These decks typically make up for the loss of Bob with either Sylvan Library or an increased reliance on Loam; they get to keep the powerful finishers of the four-color builds but have much better mana. They can also compensate for a generally three-drop-dense curve with two of the best removal spells at one mana, Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. I'm not sure I like the trade of Bob and Pulse for white, but these lists are not bad by any stretch.

In the next post, I'll address some important card choices and major debates for the deck.

Current as of 22-ii-2012. Banner compliments of sdematt.

[Aggro_zombies]

General Points

Aggro Loam is a deck built on synergy and redundancy; many of the cards it plays are individually mediocre, but become significantly more powerful within the context of the deck. At the heart of this is Life from the Loam: most of your card choices are made to synergize with the Loam engine. Your general game plan will involve ramping in the first few turns, preferably with a Mox Diamond and a Loam to recur fetches and other lands; simultaneously, you’ll be setting up a defense, removing problem permanents, and looking for a Seismic Assault and/or Punishing Fires (for the builds that run it). You then close out the game with burn and large creatures.


Specific Points

Playing around graveyard hate: At the current point in time (March 2012), the main forms of graveyard hate in the format are Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze, and to a lesser extent, Bojuka Bog and Tormod’s Crypt. Each of these cards sees play in different places and require different strategies to play around. In order:

Surgical Extraction: Sees play often as a foil to Snapcaster Mage. Unlike Extirpate, you can respond to it, making it far less of a threat. If you suspect your opponent has access to them (and decks with Snapcasters will often have them), try to dredge conservatively and limit the number of Loams in your graveyard. Keep at least one cycle land and mana up as often as you can. Keep track of Surgicals in the opponent’s graveyard as well, and be aware that two open mana on your turn may represent Snapcaster, flash back Surgical. It may be worthwhile to Surgical the opponent’s Surgicals if you are worried.
Scavenging Ooze: This seems play most often in decks running Green Sun’s Zenith (mostly Maverick at the moment). Maverick’s mana can be susceptible to Wasteland if you can keep them off of Birds/Hierarchs, which limits how many times Ooze can go after your Loams. If it becomes bothersome, it’s worth saving removal for Ooze, but if you can limit the amount of green mana your opponent has then playing around Ooze becomes the same as playing around Surgical.
Bojuka Bog: This sees very little play outside of decks looking to pair it with Knight of the Reliquary, and then it is often just a one-of in conjunction with other pieces of removal. Basically, if the opponent has an untapped Knight, be mindful of what you’re doing with your graveyard.
Tormod’s Crypt: The best use of Crypt is to sandbag it and then use it to empty a full graveyard of Loam targets, but I’ve had people play Crypt preemptively before. If you suspect your opponent has Crypts, it’s more important to protect Loam targets than Loam itself; you will draw more Loams, but losing a big chunk of your Wastelands and cycling lands will hamper you more in the near-term. If you can, try to keep a Loam in hand at all times (and use another to get lands back).

Stacking Crusher and Bob triggers: If you specifically do not want to draw a land off of Bob, stack Bob, then Crusher on top of it. This is often the best call because it will grow Crushers the most and fill your hand with gas, especially if you are going to dredge Loam on your draw step. However, in matchups where the opponent can put a lot of pressure on your life total, you may want to stack the triggers the other way: with around half of an average Aggro Loam’s list costing zero mana, you are less likely to lose life off of a random Bob flip. Here’s some slightly older math by luma (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-DtW-Aggro-Loam&p=430062&viewfull=1#post430062) for those who want it.

When to go for it and when to play conservatively with Loam: This depends on a couple of things: whether you suspect graveyard hate, whether you have a Bob, whether you have Assault, and what your targets for Loam are. If you suspect hate, it is usually correct to play conservatively with Loam unless it is close to the end of the game, in which case you may just want to go for it anyway. If you have Bob, there is little cost to dredging on your draw step, since you’ll be seeing a fresh card off of Confidant. If you have Assault, whether you want to go for it or not depends on your opponent’s life total; if you can kill him this turn, do so, but if you can, Loam once or twice to build up some lands and then go all-in as soon as your opponent is within lethal Assault range. As for Loam targets: cycling lands are best used on the opponent’s turn unless you need cards right now. Not only do they help you dodge removal for Loam that way, but it’s worth leaving mana up in builds that run EE, Punishing Fires, and Terminate. Loaming to draw is slow, mana-intensive, and clunky as well, so you will rarely have the mana to cycle cast a Loam, cycle a bunch of cards, and then cast another Loam on your own turn unless it is very late in the game and the board is clear of pressure (or you are trying to pump Crushers enough to win).



Concerning Chalice of the Void

Discussion about Chalice of the Void occurs regularly in the thread, particularly when builds without it do well. For a long time, Chalice was a staple card in Aggro Loam, and it continues to be good in the abstract in a format that plays many of the game’s most powerful one-drops. I personally do not like the card, but I want to lay out the reasons for and against it first before I discuss that.

Reasons to run Chalice:

Many decks rely on 1cc spells to operate. A short list of such cards includes Brainstorm, Noble Hierarch, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Ponder, and others.
Most of the removal in the format costs one mana. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and Lightning Bolt are (currently) the most prevalent of these spells, but there are many others.
Locking opponents out of their 1cc bracket has historically been proven to be quite good. The most recent example of this was the brief period when Mental Misstep was legal.
Aggro Loam otherwise lacks ways to interact with the stack. Since Aggro Loam’s interactive cards deal exclusively with permanents, the deck is soft to spells.

Reasons to not run Chalice:

You cannot run your own 1cc cards. This makes you squishier in the early game, especially when you do not have an early Mox Diamond.
Getting a turn one Chalice at one is rare. The longer Chalice takes to show up, the more 1cc spells the opponent can cast (thereby weakening Chalice’s value) and the more answers your opponent is likely to have.
Subsequent Chalices are dead draws. You can cast backup Chalices at one in case the opponent answers the first one, but in general you would rather not draw another Chalice once you have resolved the first one.
Chalice is easily answerable if the opponent deems it a problem. Green Sun’s Zenith for Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree, and Spell Snare are all cheap, effective answers for a resolved Chalice at one.
Chalice’s value is matchup-dependent. Decks relying on many 1cc creatures are often better dealt with via removal, while some decks are more resilient to losing 1cc spells than others.

Chalice is good in decks that can support consistently casting one early as part of a concerted denial strategy: MUD and Stax decks that run Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in addition to Moxen can often cast a Chalice in their opening hand on turn one. However, Chalice’s value diminishes as the game goes on and your opponent uses his 1cc cards. Particularly given the (current) prevalence of Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, not having a turn one Chalice means some decks will have significantly more ways to stop you when you do try to cast it; on the flip side, you can argue that a counter used on your Chalice is a counter that is not available to stop another bomb. However, there are a considerable number of worthwhile counter targets in your deck, enough that using Chalice as bait is not a good use of Chalice.

It’s also important to realize that not all 1cc spells are of equal worth. Some cards your Chalice can counter will be significantly more meaningful to you than others; countering an StP is going to be a lot better for you than countering a Noble Hierarch, for example. Furthermore, some 1cc cards your opponent runs will matter very little to you: Stifle out of RUG Tempo, for example, is actively bad against Aggro Loam after the first few turns, so being able to counter it is more of a bonus than a compelling reason to run Chalice.

Thus, the true number of cards for which you care about having Chalice in a given matchup is usually smaller than the total number of 1cc cards your opponent has. It may be helpful, when thinking about whether you want Chalice for a given matchup, to list all of the cards that Chalice can counter and then compare to all of the cards you really care about Chalice countering; if those two lists are similarly sized, Chalice is going to be useful. However, if the list of total CMC-1 cards is much longer, you may want to consider other cards that could be more useful. For example, against Maverick, Chalice stops Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch, and Birds of Paradise, but you only really care about StP and sort of care about Mom. It may be better to accept that your opponent’s StPs will be live and use the space you get from dropping Chalices to run better cards for the matchup (like Bolt, Lavamancer, Dreams, or others).

It’s also worth remembering that, as good as a card’s highs may be, it’s more instructive to look at that card’s averages. While Chalice at one on turn one is certainly powerful, it requires both two specific cards (Chalice and Mox Diamond), two non-specific cards (two lands, one of which must come into play untapped), and three other cards that aren’t bad (that is, a Chalice, Mox, and five lands is usually a mulligan). The far more likely scenario is that Chalice is cast sometime between turns two and four. Revisiting the point above (that the true number of cards for which you want Chalice is smaller than the total number of cards you can counter), and keeping in mind that the second, third, and fourth Chalices are usually dead draws, you may want to seriously ask yourself how much Chalice will help you in games where you don’t get it very early. The overall benefits of the card may be lower than they appear on paper.



Concerning the Blue Splash

Discussion about switching the black splash to a blue one comes up occasionally, so it’s worth addressing some of the issues with the blue splash here. The usual arguments for the blue splash can be summed up as follows:
1) It gives you access to counters, which improve the combo matchup;

2) It gives you access to Brainstorm, which is a powerful card drawing spell;

3) It gives you access to Intuition, which is a powerful tutor.

I want to address my specific issues with each of these three points and then add a few general comments on the blue splash.

Addressing #1: I think it’s helpful here to look at decks with a historically strong combo matchup (which Aggro Loam does not have) and differentiate what they do from what Aggro Loam does. For this analysis, I’m going to use RUG Tempo (or Canadian Threshold, as it was once called), but decks like Merfolk and some control decks have had positive matchups against combo as well. RUG Tempo is characterized by the following things: a high density of counters (usually some combination of Daze, Force of Will, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce), cantrips (Brainstorm and sometimes Ponder), a fast clock (most recently Delver, but also Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, and Vendillion Clique, backed by burn), and a low mana count (usually under 22 mana sources). A generic RUG versus combo matchup, won by RUG, will typically play out as follows: the RUG player disrupts the combo player’s mana in the early turns, counters key setup spells, and sticks one or two creatures that then beat down while the combo player tries to cobble together a good enough hand to go off through any remaining opposition. These games are not usually attrition-based; the combo player is favored going long, especially if he has access to disruption. The important thing to notice here is that the pressure applied by the RUG player is early, applied often, and is backed by a fast clock. By the time RUG runs out of disruption, the combo player should be under too much pressure from creatures to draw into a good hand.

The problem with adding counters to Aggro Loam is that Aggro Loam doesn’t have the ability to apply pressure early or often, and its clocks - while powerful - generally take several turns to get to full strength. Most combo decks are built to be resilient to a few counters; some, like Painter, run their own counters and will be able to fight back. Aggro Loam decks are also typically close to 50% mana between lands and Mox Diamonds, which means they have far more draws that don’t pressure the combo player than a deck like RUG. The combination of these factors results in what we can call a “strategic weakness” to combo: Aggro Loam’s core strategy of card advantage, attrition, and board control have little to no effect on stack-based combo decks. Adding counters doesn’t adequately compensate for deeper problems, like the higher percentage of mana, the large number of late-game cards, and the tendency of “unfair” decks to trump “fair” ones.

It’s also worth remembering that “combo” is not a monolithic entity. When many players talk about combo, they mean something like TES or ANT - storm-based combo decks - but Dredge, Reanimator, Painter, Burn, various Show and Tell builds, and Elves can all count as combo decks. Some of them, like Dredge, are naturally resistant to counter-based hate plans; others run their own counters and are in a much better position to win counter fights than you are.

Addressing #2: Brainstorm is certainly powerful in the decks that run it, but it’s worth trying to untangle why, and the easiest way to do that is to take a large number of random three-card samples from the various decks that run Brainstorm and compare them to random three-card samples from Aggro Loam. While many players would argue (correctly) that Brainstorm is a powerful card in and of itself, it’s also important to remember that Brainstorm can be made better or worse by the cards around it. An Aggro Loam Brainstorm will tend to draw a large amount of mana because the deck runs a large amount of mana; it will also draw a large number of mid- to late-game cards because Aggro Loam runs a large number of mid- to late-game cards. Brainstorm is very good in the decks that normally run it because it tends to draw a healthy mix of cards, and is therefore very good at all points in the game: at finding mana and setting up power plays in the early game, helping you consolidate your board or come back from behind in the midgame, and finding ways to seal the deal in the late game. Aggro Loam, as a linear strategy primarily focused on attrition, synergy, and powerful late-game plays, will have weaker overall Brainstorms than many blue decks.

On the other hand, reusable card advantage spells like Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library tend to be better than Brainstorm on average because their effects add up over several turns. They feed in well to Aggro Loam’s focus on going long in a way isolated Brainstorms typically don’t.

Addressing #3: Intuition is certainly a powerful card, but I think it strays too close to “the danger of cool things” territory. It is not often that an Aggro Loam deck will want to leave three mana open to cast Intuition, or to sink time into casting a three-mana tutor and then spending additional mana to cast the spell the tutor finds. Entomb, on-color for most Aggro Loam lists, does something very similar for a fraction of the mana.

Intuition may be more attractive in blue builds that want to keep mana open for counters, but such builds end up being torn between wanting to cast powerful proactive cards (Assault, Loam, Crusher) and reactive ones (counters), and keeping mana open while maximizing the strength of your proactive core can be a difficult task. I am not convinced that counters are sufficiently rewarding to make this plan viable.

Stepping back a bit, I think it’s important when proposing major changes to a deck, such as the choice of tertiary colors, to ask yourself what problems you are solving and what problems you are creating by doing so. The Jund formula (and non-blue formulas in general) have proven themselves to be consistent performers, but they are far from perfect decks. Any major changes made to the deck need to address its weaknesses without losing too much ground elsewhere; you want to maintain strong matchups against other fair decks while also boosting your performance against combo and other decks that can ignore or neutralize your linear plan.

[Aggro_zombies]

Resources
Previous thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6793-
Recent Aggro Loam Primer (as of 11-vii-2011): http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/press/2011/jund-a-summary-of-aggro-loam/#more-13

Recent Changes

10-ii-2010: Added suggested sideboard changes to matchups post.
11-iii-2012: Updated first and second post.


Going Forward / Discussion Points: (Current as of 11-iii-2012)

One of the major problems with the deck right now is its tendency to - for lack of a better term - durdle a lot. You may have an incredibly powerful late-game, but "great late-game" is no longer a selling point in a format where the top decks have powerful plays right out of the gates and their late-games are really Aggro Loam's midgame. Aggro Loam tends to fumble quite a bit in the first few turns, particularly when not opening on a Mox Diamond; you are trying to start several engines whose individual cycles are relatively weak, but whose power is cumulative. Furthermore, Aggro Loam's complete inability to interact with the stack (Chalice notwithstanding) means the deck must rely solely on having a powerful on-board presence to win. These things combine to make the deck generally mediocre in the current metagame.

For those working on the deck, the big question that should be at the front of your mind when making changes is, "What can I do to make this deck durdle less?" Legacy as a format is very good at punishing plays that don't have much immediate impact. What can be done to fix Aggro Loam's squishy early and midgames while still staying true to its powerful late-game and distinctive Loam engines?

[Wargoos]

Well done!
I overflew it just sparely because I am kinda in a hurry but:

I would kinda wish me that you distinguish your sample boardin plans for your sample list in the
"+ X
- X" - pattern.

I know it doesn't hit the fan because boarding should never be done the same twice and all.
But I think it's useful for starters to get the basic idea and what cards are needed most to fight
the worst matchups best.

I will read it through thoroughly later today but I have to write an exam in privat law today and still got nothing :(

[Aggro_zombies]

Well done!
I overflew it just sparely because I am kinda in a hurry but:

I would kinda wish me that you distinguish your sample boardin plans for your sample list in the
"+ X
- X" - pattern.

I know it doesn't hit the fan because boarding should never be done the same twice and all.
But I think it's useful for starters to get the basic idea and what cards are needed most to fight
the worst matchups best.

I will read it through thoroughly later today but I have to write an exam in privat law today and still got nothing :(
Yeah, I'll do that later. I'm headed to bed now and probably forgot to add that in when I wrote the primer.

[BreathWeapon]

If Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams are "too slow" for the current environment, then how is Seismic Assault "fast enough" by comparison? IMO, Seismic Assault has really lost its "umph" now that x/3s are the standard. The only decks Seismic Assault shines against are the same decks Fire Spout deals with, so is it really necessary anymore?

Also, has anybody tried Sylvan Library as a replacement for Dark Confidant, so the deck can cut down to 3 colors and just run Knight of the Reliquary?

[BreathWeapon]

If Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams are "too slow" for the current environment, then how is Seismic Assault "fast enough" by comparison? IMO, Seismic Assault has really lost its "umph" now that x/3s are the standard. The only decks Seismic Assault shines against are the same decks Fire Spout deals with, so is it really necessary anymore?

Also, has anybody tried Sylvan Library as a replacement for Dark Confidant, so the deck can cut down to 3 colors and just run Knight of the Reliquary?

[luma]

General Strategy Points
Do NOT announce whether you’re going to dredge until checking whether or not the cycling abilities on your lands resolve – otherwise, your opponent will try to Submerge your guys in response to force you to dredge them.

If you announce "cycle and dredge", and your opponent Submerges your guy in response, you don't have to dredge; you get to choose whether to draw or dredge.

More on topic: do you have any suggestions againt Enchantress? My local meta usually has two or three Enchantresses each tournament, and I'm having a lot of trouble with them, especially since I don't run Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence. Is there any other way to make the matchup even bearable than to dedicate some sideboard slots solely against Enchantress (Tranquil Domain / Tranquility / Reverent Silence)?

[chmoro]

Hi,
Aggro Zombies, thank you for this post, it's helpfull.
I'll probably play this deck in the GP here in Madrid, but I'm concerned for the growing Dream Halls decks.
Don't you think that adding some cruel edicts, or other sacrifice cards, in the SB would be good to have some chances agains Progenitus?

[Justin]

Outstanding job Aggro Zombies! Your hard work on this primer is much appreciated! I've had an Aggo Loam deck for a while, but I haven't made any major changes to it in months. You've given me some ideas. Nice job on the general strategy points, too!

[Aggro_zombies]

If Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams are "too slow" for the current environment, then how is Seismic Assault "fast enough" by comparison? IMO, Seismic Assault has really lost its "umph" now that x/3s are the standard. The only decks Seismic Assault shines against are the same decks Fire Spout deals with, so is it really necessary anymore?
Seismic Assault is also a Fireball that can kill the opponent. It's stayed despite being slow because of its value as an alternate win condition in addition to the creature-killing capabilities.


More on topic: do you have any suggestions againt Enchantress? My local meta usually has two or three Enchantresses each tournament, and I'm having a lot of trouble with them, especially since I don't run Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence. Is there any other way to make the matchup even bearable than to dedicate some sideboard slots solely against Enchantress (Tranquil Domain / Tranquility / Reverent Silence)?
Anusien suggested Harmonize, which I haven't tested. If there's that much Enchantress is may be worth dedicating some sideboard slots to it, and Harmonize and DD are pretty good together there. Also, I know the cycle-dredge issue, but it's easy to forget if you go into auto-pilot, which is something I was trying to emphasize as being bad here.


Hi,
Aggro Zombies, thank you for this post, it's helpful.
I'll probably play this deck in the GP here in Madrid, but I'm concerned for the growing Dream Halls decks.
Don't you think that adding some cruel edicts, or other sacrifice cards, in the SB would be good to have some chances against Progenitus?
It's easy for Progenitus players to have an extra guy in play to dodge your Edicts, so something like Perish is usually better. As for Dream Halls - I'm not sure, I haven't seen any here in the U.S. My suspicion would be that you would need dedicated sideboard hate. Indrik Stomphowler (to put into play with Show and Tell to kill their Dream Halls...hopefully they just don't drop Progenitus) and some Krosan Grips would probably help. My impression is that Dream Halls has a variable level of speed and Chalice will force it to slow down, which you want. This is the matchup were Edict effects would be useful as the deck can't spam creatures to protect Progenitus.

[Holiday]

I really like the new primer, A. Zombies! This needed to be done for awhile now and you did a great job.

I've recently cut my burning wishes and I'm not missing them too much.

Is it worth posting a Matchup analysis of Vial Goblins?

[malden]

The other thing worth noting is the complete absence of Devastating Dreams. While the land destruction and sweep effects are quite nice, Devastating Dreams has been losing a lot of value in the face of both blue and larger creatures. Zoo will require at least three cards to efficiently wipe its board, but you’ll have to discard several more if you want to get rid of Tarmogoyf (and killing Knight of the Reliquary is virtually impossible), and an active Sylvan Library makes the mandatory Mind Twist of Dreams much less attractive. Firespout is a much better answer against blue aggro-control decks while being equally solid against Zoo. However, Devastating Dreams does have its uses and is definitely better against aggro decks that don’t run counters or have much library manipulation; if the Zoo deck doesn’t have an active Library or lands in hand, it’s pretty screwed. The land destruction element is also randomly useful against other decks like Enchantress that are sensitive to losing lands en masse. Dreams may have lost a lot of its luster, but it is still worth considering at least for the sideboard.

I understand this argument for not running Devastating Dreams (DD from now on) main. I have a question based on this and the fact that most builds now use Chalice of the Void. Since most of the concern for running DD is your opponent having Force of Will and Spell Snare, would it make sense to still run DD main deck since 95% of the time you will be playing a Chalice of the Void set at 1 before hand? Wouldn't locking them out of lands still be a good play early?

[Volt]

Nice primer, AZ. Very nice.

@Holiday: Not much to say about the Vial Goblins matchup, imo. Aggro-Loam crushes it, especially if you're running Devastating Dreams, and even if you aren't.

I think running a ninja DD is a fine idea, btw.

[malden]

I think running a ninja DD is a fine idea, btw.

I already run 2 ninja Price of Progress in my build of Zoo and it works wonders all the time.:wink:

[Aggro_zombies]

I understand this argument for not running Devastating Dreams (DD from now on) main. I have a question based on this and the fact that most builds now use Chalice of the Void. Since most of the concern for running DD is your opponent having Force of Will and Spell Snare, would it make sense to still run DD main deck since 95% of the time you will be playing a Chalice of the Void set at 1 before hand? Wouldn't locking them out of lands still be a good play early?
This is actually a pretty complex issue. Part of it is exacerbated by the random discard element of Dreams; if it allowed you to choose, you could plan things to cushion the blow of having to pitch a number of cards.

Dreams has really been weakening in general over the past few years due to the continued printing of larger and more durable creatures. Tarmogoyf was a huge blow for the card as it lost the ability to be a complete one-sided Wrath of God thanks to a typical Tarmogoyf's 5+ toughness. Random discard on Dreams means that, even if you discard up to Tarmogoyf's current toughness, accidentally pitching an artifact would often be enough to keep Goyf alive and thus able to block Crusher. Terravore lost a lot of power for unrelated reasons (graveyard hate, mostly), so the previous Dreams plan of Wrath, swing for the win became a lot less frequent. The rise of Counterbalance a short time after Tarmogoyf's printing also gave blue players a handy, difficult-to-kill Meddling Mage on Dreams. The card was a blowout against Goblins, but Goblins has lost a lot of appeal in the last couple of years and is now a solid Tier II presence. Zoo, which took its place as the aggro deck-du-jour, requires at least three cards to kill perhaps 75% of its typical creature base. If you're low on life, you can't really swing into that as the creatures left alive will either be Tarmogoyf or Knight, both of which can be deadly if the Zoo player follows an attack with land, burn spell. And this is setting aside the fact that you're often only getting card parity in the best-case scenarios.

Blue is the real sticking point, though. When one of the downsides of a card is, "Your opponent gets real card advantage from Force of Will," you have to really examine how much mileage you're getting out of the card. It's easy enough to play around Daze, but if your opponent has one you can expect him to use it to save his lands (a problem). The card is nigh uncastable against Counterbalance and requires a significant investment against Merfolk to avoid having a lord vialed in as a response to save the team.

You can try to bait counters, but aside from the fact that you can't be quite sure you've gotten them all unless the opponent's hand is empty (unlikely), each card you play to try to bait a counter decreases your hand size and thus makes the subsequent Dreams worse. If you try to fill up on lands with Loam, you have to add "significant setup time" to the list of drawbacks. At some point, it just isn't worth it anymore, especially when Firespout is available.

[Sniper]

My personal compliments to Aggro Zombies for this primer (i love AggroLoam) and in general for his clever posts.:laugh:
I need some info's about Ichorid matchup (i face few times this deck); i own only Tormod's Crypt, is indispensable Leyline???
Thank you

[Aggro_zombies]

I need some info's about Ichorid matchup (i face few times this deck); i own only Tormod's Crypt, is indispensable Leyline???
Thank you
Thanks.

No, Leyline isn't indispensable, but it does slant things pretty heavily in your favor. Most Ichorid players know how to play around Crypt (as a novice Ichorid pilot, it's one of the first things you should learn once you know how the deck works) and can either force you to pop Crypt early, or slow-roll you with big Trolls or something. If you can get some Leylines, it's worth the investment, but you may be fine on just Crypts if you don't expect that much Ichorid. In most cases, Crypt is fine against other graveyard-dependent decks.

[flrn]

I really don't think Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams are too slow these days. We have a lot of aggro loam players in our meta at the moment, so im quite used to playing against it. And seriously, most of the time, a resolved Devastating Dreams means "hi, i win the game". Here's a list as reference:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31758

Oh and yeah, the random Stinkweed Imp is insane. Insane good.

[nodahero]

While your friends deck looks good on the surface it seems like he will get bent over preety hard to grave hate... His deck is extremely grave dependent. Game 1 shouldnt be an issue but come games 2 and 3... It dosn't seem preety, his deck really seems like it only does steallar with an active Loam... I may be wrong though.

My personal beef with the deck is the heavy land depdency with only 2 Loam main and 1 in the board. This means that a fair portion of the time if you want your beaters to do their thing you gotta Wish for Loam... or find a way to keep offing SImp. Personally I would suggest running at least the fourth Loam in the board for games two and three... At least then you can restart the engine easier if it gets dismantled.

[chmoro]

Hi again,
I've played versions with and without BW and DD, and my personal feeling is that the deck works faster without them. My results werent good anyway, but it was easier for me to do my play. And having a full SB is worth it, cause the worst pairings, like storm combo, are no more impossible.
Aggro Zombies thanxx again, could you pleaese write a matchup against canadian threshold?

[Forbiddian]

Are you sideboarding +3 zuran orb just for the black storm combo matchup and, like, burn?

[Aggro_zombies]

Are you sideboarding +3 zuran orb just for the black storm combo matchup and, like, burn?
Burn can be an issue for the deck, so yes.

Storm is pretty bad regardless, but you can get better percentages with either Orb or Thorn of Amethyst (which I don't run because it's pretty bad everywhere else).

[BantFTW]

U also side it in against goblins and zoo^^
It will steal some time to win against gobblins and zoo so it ain't bad..

[coraz86]

Storm is pretty bad regardless, but you can get better percentages with either Orb or Thorn of Amethyst (which I don't run because it's pretty bad everywhere else).

Correct me if I'm wrong--it's been some time since I've played Aggro Loam in Legacy--but I used to use Thorn in Extended before Odyssey rotated to help my Dredge matchup as well. In Legacy it might be less useful because of the presence of LED, but their mana bases are pretty thin to begin with, and the combination of Thorn and Wasteland seems like it might help.

[Antonius]

I know that people have played white as splash fourth color, but has anyone ever considered running white instead of red? I was brainstorming on a build something like

26 Lands
4 Mox Diamond

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goof
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

4 Life From the Loam
4 Vindicate
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Armageddon or Cataclysm (?)

[Fasbi]

Crusher > Knight > Terravore

Cutting Red (Crusher, Assault) for White (Knight, Vindicate) doesn't make any sense. Just take 2 more Maelstrom Pulse and you have no need for Vindicate.

At the moment I'm testing the differences between RGb with and without Wish. Both are really strong.


On the tournament last saturday I got paired two times with Belcher and won both rounds... strange... :D

[Aggro_zombies]

I've also had generally positive results against Belcher. I think it may be an exception to the Bad Storm Matchup Rule because it tends to go all-in on its opener and, short of playing and activating Charbelcher for lethal on your turn zero, you have a lot of tools to answer the Goblin tokens. At that point, Belcher is pretty screwed.

[Sniper]

We all seeing the rise of bant survival decks in these days.
AgrroLoam can be competitive against this archetype???

2 copies of Devastating Dreams in MD nowdays are useful used at the right time even versus Ubased.
Are you people of the same advice??? Can be advice for Bant Survival???:rolleyes:

[Sniper]

Someone will respond us???:frown:

[Krofojed]

It seems to me that the primer (which is othewise great!) is not entirely correct regarding stacking Confidant and Crusher.

(1) If you have no Loam in the gravayard or don't want to dredge:

(1a) Confidant resolves first, Crusher second:
You get a random card from Confidant (resulting in random life loss) and a spell on the draw. A random number of lands are milled by Crusher (this is independant of what you got from Confidant - if you got a land from Confidant, the other stacking would have given you one more land to grow Crusher, but if you got a spell from Confidant, the other stacking would not have grown Crusher at all).

(1b) Crusher resolves first, Confidant second:
You get a spell from Confidant (resulting in likely life loss) and a random card on the draw. A random number of lands are milled by Crusher.

In summary, you get one spell and one random card in either case and a random number of lands are milled by Crusher. The only difference is the probability of life loss from Confidant, which is greater in (1b). So if you don't have Loam, always stack Confidant on top.

(2) If you have Loam in the graveyard and want to dredge:

(2a) Confidant resolves first, Crusher second:
You get a random card from Confidant (resulting in a random life loss) and Loam on the draw. Dredging will put at least one non-land in the graveyard.

(2b) Crusher resolves first, Confidant second:
You get a spell from Confidant (resulting in likely life loss) and Loam on the draw. Dredging will put more lands in the graveyard on average than (2a).

There is no clear decision here. If you fear life loss and/or want to get a land (the latter being unlikely with Loam), (2a) is better. If you don't fear life loss and would like to get a spell, (2b) is better.

[Krofojed]

I have problems deciding on the sideboard for my Aggro-Loam deck. The deck I play is very similar to the first one in this thread. This is my current sideboard:

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
2 Kitchen Finks

The matchups I find the most problematic are Dredge and ANT, so I want to have at least 6 cards against each.

For Dredge, I have 3 Laylines and 3 Bogs, because Leyline gives them the most trouble, but they can bounce (or destroy) it and then I'm screwed, whereas Bog is not so great, but there's little they can do about it. Firespout also has some value against Dredge.

For ANT, I already have Chalices main, so the 5th and 6th cards and the Traps. I'm not too happy about them, because they can be duressed, but the only alternative I see is Thorn of Amethyst, which is answered by the same cards they will bring in against Chalices (and I like the idea of multi-pronged attack). What do you think the best choice against ANT is? Leylines and Kitchen Finks also have some marginal utility against ANT. And Trap is better than Thorn against Belcher, since they typically go off on turn one (when you're unlikely to have Thorn in play).

For various types of aggro, there are Firespouts and Kitchen Finks (which are also useful against burn). I think this is sufficient. Zuran Orb is often used instead of Finks, but I don't like the idea of sacrificing lands when I'm under pressure. Any thoughts on this?

Krosan Grips are obviously against Countertop and any other decks playing artifacts and enchantments, although they are clearly inadequate against stuff like Stax and Enchantress. However, I just have to hope I won't play play against these two.

In my experience, matchups against various NO-Bant-style decks are quite winnable unless they get a quick Progenitus. I would like to address this somehow, but I'm not sure how. Perish would help (and is also good against Zoo and minor players such as Elves), but what should it replace in the sideboard?

[BantFTW]

the new land from WWK ain't bad against dredge :P
so that's maybe good (maybe also for mainboard)
and I woudn't go for mindbreak trap

GOOD ANT players will never go off without thinking of things like counter, trap,...

I even play firespout main but that's because I'm in a heavy aggro meta.
Zuran orb let's u win against alot of things.
gobblins if u're going to slow, zoo, even ANT, they mostly can't do 30 damage or something...
Zuran orb is really good.

[malden]

GOOD ANT players will never go off without thinking of things like counter, trap,...

I agree with this and I have watched several people in my meta fall to ANT assuming that the pilot is not thinking about hate.


Zuran orb is really good.

It really is that good, and for the exact reason that BantFTW stated, you can easily push an extra 10 life out of this, and they have already used their combo to hit you for 20, if you can gain 10-12 life from zuran orb and have a Life from the Loam, they are toast, cause you just recovered really easily and reset yourself for gaining more life while they have to try to get a Ill Gotten Gains to even attempt to get you with a lethal Tendrils since they already cast it.:wink:

Zuran orb was one my favorite cards back in the day cause I would abuse the heck out of it with Life from the Loam for this exact reason. I had Seismic Assault in that casual deck as well and it did a great job of grinding decks into the ground slowly and painfully.

[BantFTW]

Has someone even thought to play zuran orb maindeck?
It seems like really strange but ur matchup against ANT and gobblins and such stuff goes really much better...
so i don't know but it doesn't seems so strange if u are in my meta (Holland, with alot of ant and aggro)
think about that hehe :P

[luma]

It seems to me that the primer (which is othewise great!) is not entirely correct regarding stacking Confidant and Crusher.

There is no difference in what you get (spells or land) whether you stack Confidant first or Crusher first, the probabilities are exactly the same for both scenarios. The only differences are that if you resolve Confidant first, you generally lose less life but have to reveal both cards you get, and if you resolve Crusher first, you don't have to reveal the card you get on your draw step, but usually lose more life to Confidant.

I actually ran a simple simulation (1M iterations) with a "deck" of 26 land, 10 0cc, 12 2cc, 12 3cc. Results (each figure is cards/life per turn):

Crusher resolved first
Lifeloss: 1.77
Spells drawn: 1.57
Lands drawn: 0.43
Lands put into graveyard: 0.74

Confidant resolved first
Lifeloss: 1.00
Spells drawn: 1.57
Lands drawn: 0.43
Lands put into graveyard: 0.74

As you can see, the spell/land/grave figures are exactly the same in both cases. Thus the only difference is in the amount of lifeloss and revealed cards. Of course, dredging can affect the decision, because with Confidant first, you get to see what you would dregde away (and will always dredge a spell), and with Crusher first, Confidant always gives you a spell and you don't know what you will dredge away.

[Sniper]

Aggroloam vs Bant Survival is competitive?
Any strategy??
How deal against Retainers+Iona combo (i was thinking relic to fast exile Iona when go down in the graveyard)???

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggroloam vs Bant Survival is competitive?
Any strategy??
How deal against Retainers+Iona combo (i was thinking relic to fast exile Iona when go down in the graveyard)???
I haven'''t played this matchup before,,, so you would have to test it...

Thanks to luma for the hard numbers there. I'll update the primer shortly.

[kortero]

I played Aggro Loam at GP Madrid making Day 2 against all odds. Not that I don’t trust myself as a player and in Aggro Loam as a deck, but I have pretty much zero experience of playing magic at a competitive level and I had played Aggro Loam only once in a small tournament in Helsinki with a record of 2-1-2. I wouldn’t have played any other deck on the GP though since I was happy to have finally found a competitive deck where I can play one of my all time favorite cards – Mox Diamond. Dark Confidant is another card that I’ve wanted to play for a long time, but it didn’t find a home in the CB/Top decks that I used to play before.

I didn’t take any notes so my report is pretty inaccurate, but I hope you like it nevertheless. I played Pat McGregor’s list with some very small modifications. I used to have one Swamp in the deck so I had switched one Wooded Foothills for a Verdant Catacombs. I switched the Swamp back to fourth Tranquil Thicked before the tournament, but left the Verdant Catacombs in. In the Sideboard I had 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Firespout, 2 Krosan Grip, 2 Thorn of Amethyst and 3 Zuran Orb. I couldn’t think of many situations where I wanted to side more than two Krosan Grips in and my sideplan against ANT was to board in 2 Thorn and 3 Zuran Orbs for 2 Pulse, 2 EE and 1 Terminate. Firespouts just felt too good not to play a full playset.

I had slept less than 2 hours the night before the GP and I suppose I might still have been a little drunk when I was woken up, but I was really looking for the GP and wouldn’t have missed it for any reason. I had no BYEs so I was looking at 9 rounds of magic and a very long day amongst 2220 players..

Round 1: Storm combo (of some kind)

I won the match 2-0. My opponent apparently kept really bad hands and was manascrewed under a turn two Chalice for one. I had a Crusher beating and Pulsed twice his Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox keeping him at one mana. I didn’t see any SB cards in game two, but his deck did nothing and somehow I won.

1-0

Round 2: Zoo

I wish I had notes, but I have a feeling that Chalice for one and big beaters had something to do with me winning the first game. I might have also had a Seismic Assault making things easier. Game 2: -4 Dark Confidant +4 Firespout. I remember casting Firespout once killing two of his creatures and winning the game afterwards.

2-0

Round 3: Supreme Blue

Opponent won the roll, had fast Top + CB. I had EE in hand and 3 mana so I cast EE for 2 with 3 mana. Opponent tops in response and shows Firespout on top of his deck. At that moment I realise it’s Supreme Blue I’m playing against, but he floated Firespout and some cc2 spell on top of his deck for the rest of the game and I had no way of winning. Game 2: -2 of something +2 Krosan Grip. Don’t remember exactly how things went, but I think I saw one Grip and also feel that I had a big beater with Chalice for one on the table. Seismic Assault is by the way really awesome at drawing out those Force of Wills against pretty much any blue based (bad?) players! Anyway I won game 2. Game 3: Opponent won with a very fast CB/Top and counters for everything. Not much one can do about it.

2-1

Round 4: Merfolk

My hangover was taking over! I was certain that I would drop if I lost the match even though I would still have had a chance of making day 2. Game 1: Tight match featuring topdecks. I won the match by topdecking an EE in a situation where my opponent had attacked with 2 Adepts and had an active Jitte with 2 counters while being at 2 life. He had two Reejereys untapped and my Tarmogoyf was 6/7. Well you can do the math. Game 2: -4 Chalice +4 Firespout. I remember my opponent running straight against Firespout. I think I drew out a Fow once again with Assault and played the one sided wrath afterwards. Quick 2-0 nevertheless.

3-1

I had more than 20 minutes to find something to eat to make it through the day. I found a store nearby and bought Tropicana pineapple juice. Close to that store I bought the best Kebab-alike-sandwich I’ve had in a long time. I was suddenly feeling better and since the deck felt really good I had a change of heart concerning the dropping.

Round 5: Supreme Blue

I learned that Supreme Blue is a pretty good matchup if you can stick Chalice for one on the table and/or if the opponent doesn’t get turn one Top, turn two CB with counter backups. Don’t remember exactly how I won the first game, but I won. Game 2: +2 Krosan Grip -2 of something (can’t really think how I would SB in that matchup even afterwards..) The opponent might have played a lone CB to which I had an answer. I had plenty of threats also and the opponent suffered from the card disadvantage of multiple Force of Wills. I drew a Chalice that resolved for one. I had also a Crusher that got pretty big soon. Then my opponent played an Elspeth that made things more difficult. I would face Elspeths ultimate pretty soon and had to think of something. I had 4-5 mana on table (not 4 different colors of mana), EE in hand and Crusher flipped Chalice. Opponent had one card in hand. I decided to go for it. EE for zero, sweep the lone soldier token. Chalice for one (hoping that the one card in opponents hand isn’t Swords) which resolved. Attacked Elspeth. Opponent conceded.

4-1

Round 6: Supreme Blue

Don’t really remember anything else than winning 2-0. Was really happy to have turned the one loss against Supreme Blue to two wins against the same deck.

5-1

Round 7: Dredge (LED build with UG Seas and Watery Graves)

Won the roll. Had couple of goyfs. Opponent mulliganed, and again to five. Land, go. Opponent played Breakthrough with Coliseum. No narcs nor dredgers to the grave. Land, Goyf, go. Opponent draws UG Sea and draws 3 with Coliseum. 1 Troll and a Thug to the graveyard. Tarmo hits for 6 and I play another Goyf. Opponent dredges the Troll, but sees only one Ichorid and concedes. I was happy to have luckily won game one against Dredge. Game 2: -3 Life from the Loam -1 of something +4 Leyline. I was really hoping to draw a hand of Leyline, Land, Mox, Chalice, but I saw no Leyline in the opening hand. Opponent mulliganed and me as well. No Leyline in my six, but I had two lands, Mox, 2 Goyfs and something. I decided to keep it in hopes of opponent having no business spells, but just antihate in hand. My risky plan was awarded with a win with 2 big Goyfs (thanks to opponent dredging all the different kinds of cards to his graveyard).

6-1

After the match, my opponent was nearly shouting that he shouldn’t be able to lose this matchup. Well, of course I was lucky to win, but also it seems like he was able to lose against Aggro Loam.

Round 8: Zoo

I played against some woman from Netherlands. She said that she loves competitive magic and that she is a very active Legacy player. She played some kind of techy Zoo with Elspeth. These we’re pretty tight games, but I managed to topdeck Pulse for the Elspeth before it was too late and dropped Chalice for two in addition to the Chalice for one that I had played earlier in a winning board position. I sided out 4 Bobs for 4 Firespouts. I won 2-0 and made it to the Day 2.

7-1

I was really happy just for making it day 2. This was my first GP ever and I made it. Perhaps I was too relieved since my playing was really sloppy in the last match..

Round 9: Merfolk

I kept a bad hand and lost because of it. Game 2 I won pretty easily, but in game 3 my opponent played ”Mutavault, Vial, go. Mutavault, Vial, Relic, go” against my not so fast hand and Forced my Pulse for the Vials so there was really not much I could have done in that situation. 1-2, but I felt good nevertheless..

7-2

I slept 5-6 hours the next night and felt good about day 2. I don’t know why, but I couldn’t really focus on playing that well on day 2. I made play mistakes and the biggest was to keep bad opening hands in game 1 in pretty much every game I played. I lost 1-2 against Survival Bant, 1-2 against UBR Faeries and drew against a Zoo deck. After that I dropped since I had no way of making top 64 and every one of those matches could’ve been winnable if I had made right choices instead of wrong ones.

Total record was 7-4-1. I can’t really say that I’m not satisfied with it, but I could’ve pretty easily done even better.

I was satisfied with the deck, but I’ve had some thoughts on the deck afterwards. I will post my current list with some explanations on the choices I’ve made later since I’m in a bit of hurry right now.

PART 2

I was pretty happy with the random one-off Terminate which was always useful when I drew it, but it can be changed for something else. Terravore wasn’t ever really big as I don’t and won’t play Devastating Dreams. After the tournament a good friend of mine suggested splashing white to the deck. He is much more experienced with Aggro Loam than me and made also Day 2 in Madrid with a homebrew Domain Zoo. He was also in the Finnish team at the Worlds in Rome this year so I have good reasons to listen to his opinion. Anyway, white gives us basically Knight of the Reliquary and some sideboard options.

I felt that splashing white wouldn’t really hurt the manabase that much so I started thinking about a list with white included. Blood Moon isn’t really that big problem and my manabase still includes a basic Forest for the Grips that I can bring in after sideboarding against Blood Moon and Back to Basics. Only time Wasteland was a problem was when I made the mistake of not bringing any fetchlands back with Life from the Loam when the only green source I had on the battlefield was a Taiga. I haven’t played any games against Canadian Threshold, Team America or Eva Green so my opinion might be a bit biased, but I feel that the manabase can work with non-basics and a basic Forest.

As a said earlier, the Pat McGregor’s list feels really good and that’s where I started. I cut the Terminate and Terravore for two Knight of the Reliquarys and made little changes to the manabase. I changed the sideboard to include three Gaddock Teegs. 27 lands feels like a good count so I won’t be changing that anytime soon. Seismic Assault just feels too good not to have 3 in MD.

This is what I’m trying out right now and to be honest, it feels really good.

MD

1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Seismic Assault

SB

4 Firespout
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Few words about the card choices:

I won’t say anything about the four-offs other than Countryside Crusher. The Crusher is a card that I like very much, but maybe I’ve just been lucky with the flipping. Anyway, I want four of them in my Aggro Loam. Other four-offs should be pretty automatic..

2 Knight of the Reliquaries: Usually comes down pretty big, but think of this guy more of as an utility creature. It fetches Wasteland when it really hurts the opponent, or acts as a tutor for other lands such as Volrath’s Stronghold. You can also surprise the opponent with the one-off Barbarian Ring that I’ve added with the Knight in mind.

2 Maelstrom Pulse and 2 EE: This felt like a good amount and configuration throughout GP Madrid so I’m not changing these.

3 Seismic Assault: I’m not saying playing only two of these is wrong in any way, but it just felt so good all the time that I don’t like the idea of going down to two. I don’t really remember how many times Seismic Assault drew the Force of Will from the opponent only so that I could drop the real threat on the table afterwards and win the game. If the Assault resolved, it usually also meant the game for me. Easy three-off for me.

Only one basic in the manabase: Yes, it’s a Forest so I can cast Krosan Grip under Blood Moon, or the Maelstrom Pulse with the help of a Mox Diamond. With Back to Basics on the table, the game is pretty rough even for the three color versions with more basics so there’s no big difference here.

Barbarian Ring: Gives the deck additional ways to deal with problematic flyers (exalted Vendilion Clique hitting for 4-5 for example) or to deal those final points of damage if your big beaters can’t seal the deal for some reason. With Knight of the Reliquary now in the deck, Barbarian Ring is tutorable for some nice combat tricks against an unprepared opponent.

I ran into few problems with 8 cycling lands in Madrid so I’ve cut one for Plateau/Savannah. 7 cycling lands feel like a good amount in a 27 land configuration.

Gaddock Teeg: Helps with combo such as the ANT matchup, but is also useful against Dredge shutting down Dread Return and against Progenitus Bant lists shutting down Natural Order and Force of Wills. Problematic with Chalice and EE though, but one can get around them by playing wisely.

Umezawa’s Jitte: I haven’t tested this card yet, but I feel it can be good in many matchups. It’s also good against decks packing their own Jittes since you can get rid of opposing Jittes by playing your own.

I might cut 1 Firespout and/or 1 Krosan Grip and/or 1 Gaddock Teeg for some other cards if I come up with something really good. I’m also open to any kinds of suggestions regarding the MD and/or SB.

-kortero

Ps. Props if you read the whole post. It's quite long.

[Areys]

I like the above deck list. One thing that I have been toying with is a hybrid between the Burning wish-less and the Wish versions of Aggro Loam. I have had some promising results from testing and am posting the list to see what others thought about my list:

MD

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness

2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Zuran Orb
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Firespout
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reverent Silence
1 Perish
1 Shattering Spree

The list is 61 cards. I like where 26 lands 6 Cycles feels so Cutting a land to 25 and making the deck 60 cards is an option but I am not sure thats where the cut needs to be made. I will say this about the decks that still run Burning Wish. Do not write them off. They still post top 8s as well as have their own feel when playing them that makes them still fun and hard to beat. Burning Wish often gets played as a must counter and thats why I like it. When you play it and not see a counter your opponent probably doesn't have the counter in hand. They don't know what you are going to grab so waiting to find out is a bad idea. Doing this on turn 2 can completely change how I play the next few turns. If they do counter it I know that there is 1 less counter in their hand for when I want to drop a crusher or Knight. (PS: Knight of the Reliquary is amazing in the deck. Love having 4)

A few drawbacks:
I have bounced between running EE Main and DD main. I can't decide whcih I like better. I find that the DD will rock non counter based decks while EE vs counters is always better. There is no room in the SB for EE either so that is why I have chosen to run 1 DD in board for a Wish target and EE main for the normal bomb.
I want to run Maelstrom Pulse x1 MB as well. Having 1 as a Wish target is really helpful yet knowing there is 1 MB/in hand after they spend the counter on your Burning Wish is always awesome.
I want to try 3 Seismic Assaults MB aslo but (back a few weeks/months ago) I was running 3 and found that 3 can really screw with your draws. Any opening hand with more than has been a bad keeper for me in the past as to SA needing alot of time to get the Loam+Cycle rotation really rolling. Then again, Running 2 has given me games where down to 15 cards in library and waiting on the 1 card in teh deck to finish the game and I never see it. Not to mention running 2 and dredging 1 into the graveyard means bad things.

[ninja_attack]

Hey guys, I took this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32617 and cut the terravore for 2 vampire hexmage and cut a cycling land and a fetch for 2 dark depths and started to test it. Seems to be working out really well by being able to kill planeswalkers and giving you inevitability when it comes to the late game and you are throwing a 20/20 down until they deal with it. Also, fanning a god hand by making a 20/20 on turn 1 or 2 isnt too bad either. Just a little food for thought.

[Areys]

Hey guys, I took this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32617 and cut the terravore for 2 vampire hexmage and cut a cycling land and a fetch for 2 dark depths and started to test it. Seems to be working out really well by being able to kill planeswalkers and giving you inevitability when it comes to the late game and you are throwing a 20/20 down until they deal with it. Also, fanning a god hand by making a 20/20 on turn 1 or 2 isnt too bad either. Just a little food for thought.

Sounds fun but having 2 more lands in the deck that wont give you mana sounds dangerous early game and lets not forget that almost every Aggro Loam deck runs 4 Wasteland and 1 Volrath Stronghold which are colorless. This means you create a deck with 7 of its 25-27 lands that will not create a color mana without Mox Diamond help. What this means is: If its in your opening hand and you need the mana source, Dark Depths is a bad card to have. If you pitch it with Mox diamond you get the mana you need however now you cant Hexmage it for an early game surprise and if you play the Hexmage without Depths in play she will eat removal faster than you can blink. If you loam Depths back to your hand because of Mox Diamonding it, you still have to worry about you opponent coutnering or stifling the Hexmage ability. Antoher drawback that comes to mind is she is a 2cc (BB). Not as easy to cast as the Confidant's 1B who's B usually comes from your Mox as you want your lands to be able to create R or G most of the time to cast the Crusher's 1RR or Loam.

With all that being said. Late game I can see Depths as a huge burden on your opponent. I am just not sure about it yet, though I will say I like your "thinking outside of the box" you've demonstraighted. To add to the think tank I think perhaps if 1 Depths and 3 Hexmage SB would not be too terrible if you play Kight of the Reliquary x4 Main board as I do. This will alow you to fetch the Depths and create the 20/20 more efficiently while putting these in the Sideboard will undoubtably allow you to create a more surprise factor games 2-3 should the matchup allow for you to fully utilize the combat tricks or Knight as well as know that your Hexmages will be able to stick long enough for her to do her job.

[Aggro_zombies]

@kortero: Congrats on the finish! Making Day 2 of the largest Magic tournament ever is nothing to sneeze at, and a final record of 7-4-1 is still quite good considering how many people didn't even make it that far.

As for the list...I don't know. It seems decent, and I can definitely see why Knight is attractive, but I'm not sure about the mana. I think I would trim a Wasteland or two for more basics, but that's just me. I'm not sure the deck has a high enough creature density to make Jitte matter, or what it would do for you in creature matchups that can be rough (Merfolk, for example, when they start vomiting guys all over the place, or have counters at awkward times). I agree on seven cycling lands, though. I've been testing Raging Ravine lately.

@Areys: I'd start by cutting Burning Wish for a fourth Loam and two Maelstrom Pulse (going back down to 60 cards that way). Burning Wish is actually quite bad, mostly because it never resolves against blue and is far to slow in the matchups where counters aren't an issue (Zoo, combo, etc). I also wouldn't run Devastating Dreams, as that card isn't very good anymore either; while it can sweep well against aggro decks, there are a lot of conditions that need to be met in order for it to not screw you over. I've since moved away from Dreams in my list as I've been unhappy with it, and briefly tried Firespouts main as replacements.

Seismic Assault is a total bomb and should probably be in the deck as a three-of.

EDIT: @ Depths combo: Seems poor without Urborg. You already have a late-game bomb in the form of active Seismic Assault, and with those numbers you're unlikely to draw your combo pieces in the midgame.

[kortero]

Thanks Aggro_zombies!

I'll try to test some games against different kinds of decks, especially ones with Wasteland and/or Stifles so I can get a clear opinion whether more basics are needed or not. As I said, the only times I've been colorscrewed before (when I ran 2 mountains and 1 forest) have been when I, myself have made the mistake of not bringing any fetchlands back with Loam and left myself with zero green mana after a wasteland.

Sideboard definately needs more testing. I've been pondering about removing the 4th Firespout so my sideplan would be +3 Firespout +1 Jitte against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo (-4 Chalice, -4 Chalice and -4 Dark Confidant). I'm also not sure if I want to keep the third Krosan Grip on the side since I've rarely, pretty much never, wanted more than 2 Grips in any matchup. I will try out one Worm Harvest against more controllish lists like Supreme Blue. I'll try to get some testing with Jitte as well to see if it really has any impact on any matchups.

I went 2-1 matches (1-2, 2-0 and 2-0) against a pretty good player with a good Pro Bant list yesterday. Not the easiest matchup because of thy Progenitals, but Chalice for 1 breaks his balls. I sided couple of Grips and a couple of Teegs, and it felt pretty good.

EDIT:

I'll keep Firespouts as four-off and the Jitte as an additional bonus in some aggro matchups. 3rd Krosan Grip becomes Worm Harvest leaving the SB as:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firespout
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Worm Harvest

[Waikiki]

Do any of you guys have the loam deck that made day 2 with maindeck pridemages and lightning bolt? Nikitin loam or smt I thought it was called.

[Tinefol]

Its a well known contender in Russia, the list drops Black in favor of white for KOTR and Qasali, it runs a solid removal suite of 4xbolt and 4xsword (chalices are in S/B), also there's top to make the deck as much consistent as it can be. He finished 17th at the GP

[Waikiki]

Can you PM me a link or list? thnx.

[Nidd]

Can you PM me a link or list? thnx.
I would also like to see the list. PM or link please!

[Tinefol]

I only have a pre-qasali list (he played it before GP), so here it is:

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life From the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond

Afaik, Finks had become the Qasalis

[Areys]

I am all for white in aggro loam (I run white as well). That said I do not think that running 10 creatures is enough. I believe that Crusher is extremely valuable and should not be cut lightly.

In my list I actually run 4 colors. Red and Green for the obvious Aggro Loam tools and Black for Leyline of the Void (Sideboard) as well as Dark Confidant and Maelstrom Pulse (Mainboard), then playing white for Gaddock Teeg (Side) and Knight of the Reliquary (Main). The rest is fairly straightforward.

Is it possibly that his meta didn't have a real need for Chalice to mainboard and that is why he chose to run a less traditional list?

[Julian23]

I only have a pre-qasali list (he played it before GP), so here it is:

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Life From the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Mox Diamond

Afaik, Finks had become the Qasalis

Went for lunch with him. He now plays -2 Finks -1 Lightning Bolt +3 Qasali Pridemage. I know that at least in Germany, people playing Nikitin Loam (I know of only one, for that matter) avoided getting the list published before the GP but with Dimitry's great finish in Madrid it seems one can no longer hold back on it.

[kortero]

Looking at that list reminds me of the first time I saw an Aggro Loam list - what is this pile of rubbish? I just couldn't figure out why the deck works so well. After playing with Aggro Loam for a while the "pieces just came together" and now it's one of my favorite decks in Legacy.

Maybe I need to test that "Nikitin Loam" as well before judging it as, well, pile of rubbish, but I just can't think of a good enough reason to cut Dark Confidants AND Chalice of the Voids from the maindeck. :>

[nodahero]

I have prolly logged about 200 games with CAL and Aggro Loam and I can, without a doubt, say that Chalice is trully replaceable if you build the deck well. As for Confidant... He can be replaced but you would need to find a REALLY odd metagame that allows for the Loam engine to replace him. I have never really seen such a metagame, but in games that have went long and I never cast a Confidant, Loam has functioned as a replacement.

I doubt it needs restating but... As with any deck knowing the meta game can do wonders for specific decks.

[Tinefol]

The problem with confidant, is that it doesn't let you run Devastating Dreams as freely, as it should be in such a deck. SDT on other hand, does just fine, letting you dredge/draw when you really need to. DD > meta.

I don't think Chalice is necessary maindeck unless your meta is all combo + ichorid. It finely resides in s/b and is only boarded in for these matches.

[kortero]

I don't see chalice as a maindeck answer for combo or ichorid. It's so good against any deck packing swords and/or paths, and I just wonder how that nikitin loam can keep threats (8+qasalis) on the battlefield without any protection. Chalice does plenty of other things against different decks, but that has been covered perfectly well in the primer or some other post.

Devastating Dreams seems also too risky against "blue opponents" that I wouldn't dare to maindeck it anymore.

I can see some of the benefits on the nikitin loam in an aggro heavy metagame featuring zoo, gobbs and so on, but as it doesn't really make any of the harder matchups (for me, at least) such as Pro Bant any easier, I'd rather stick to the more traditional lists.

[nodahero]

I personally think his list was designed for a blue light meta... That is the only conclusion I can come to... That or he got extremely lucky all day. It seems like his deck took all the 60/40 matches and he shoved them to like 70-30. An ok idea if you know you will play nothing but good matchups all day. It never hurts to hedge the bets if you know the outcome.

[Tinefol]

Well, w/e, its not like I'm going to defend the list or the deck I don't even play. But it works, believe it or not. And is actually quite good against blue.

[nodahero]

@tinefol: I think you misunderstood me. I was not knocking the deck at all. I was saying that he made a meta call and it paid off for him. That was all I meant. If he would have been forced to play reanimator and combo instead of a solid number of aggro-esq decks he would have done worse.

Another benefit of chalice I noticed is the power it has built in against Reanimator. A chalice at 1 is nearly GG surprisingly (depending on the build). That one play cuts off ponder, brainstorm, reanimate, entomb, spell pierce. Mystical tutor, and Thoughtseize/Duress... AKA you knock out 2upwards of 22-28 cards. Sadly Ravens crime does not boast nearly as awesome card power in that matchup. I may likely switch back to Chalice.

[Aggro_zombies]

@tinefol: I think you misunderstood me. I was not knocking the deck at all. I was saying that he made a meta call and it paid off for him. That was all I meant. If he would have been forced to play reanimator and combo instead of a solid number of aggro-esq decks he would have done worse.

Another benefit of chalice I noticed is the power it has built in against Reanimator. A chalice at 1 is nearly GG surprisingly (depending on the build). That one play cuts off ponder, brainstorm, reanimate, entomb, spell pierce. Mystical tutor, and Thoughtseize/Duress... AKA you knock out 2upwards of 22-28 cards. Sadly Ravens crime does not boast nearly as awesome card power in that matchup. I may likely switch back to Chalice.
It only does this on the play and only if you get it turn one. The main issue with Chalice is that it gets exponentially worse the longer you have to wait to play it. Let's assume a realistic scenario: you're on the play in game one against Reanimator (but you don't know this). You draw Chalice but no Diamond, and your hand is otherwise really good, so you keep rather than mulliganing into oblivion trying to find it. You go land, go. Your opponent goes land, Entomb, find Iona, go. Chalice at one is suddenly a lot worse.

Or your opponent goes land, Vial, go.

Or your opponent goes land, Top, go.

Point is, Chalice is great on turn one, mediocre on turn two, and downright bad afterwards. I've been thinking of moving it to the board the more I test. Then again, I've only stuck Chalice at one on turn one eleven times (yes, I've counted) since I picked this deck up over a year ago, so maybe my opinion of it is colored. It really sucks to have your Chalice totally invalidated just because you couldn't get it on turn one.

EDIT: Even if your opponent doesn't do these things, and just goes [Island of some sort], go, you're opening yourself up to Daze and Spell Pierce in addition to Force of Will for your big turn-two play. He can also Brainstorm to find the Daze or the Force. Generally, not getting Chalice on turn one against blue means you won't get it at all on turn two - for me, it's been rarer to resolve one than to have it countered against a blue opponent. And there's a lot of blue out there right now.

EDIT 2: Let me elaborate on the Reanimator example. Chalice is still good in this scenario IF your opponent does not have and a counter and IF his plan was to use Reanimate. If he has Exhume, you're still dead. If he has a counter, you're still dead. If he gets Show and Tell, you're dead (most likely). Whatever ends up happening, the damage was already done by the time you got Chalice out and you're now racing your opponent's topdecks. Even assuming you lay a land and Crusher on turn three, you're still looking at probably about three to four more turns before you can kill the opponent (if you also get a Loam active and another guy going too). Show and Tell for Robot Akroma screws you over so hard it hurts, as does Show and Tell for Inkwell Leviathan (though less so). And this sets aside the fact that your opponent will most likely lay a land and either Duress/Thoughtseize you or pass, then Entomb EOT if you don't do anything threatening or Brainstorm/counter if you do. That deck actually has a lot of ways to deal with a Chalice that doesn't come down before it gets a turn.

[nodahero]

I agree fully with what you say but the question is what would be a better solution? Crime does no better.

[Volt]

Can't agree with cutting Chalices. No 1cc spell you might replace it with will do more for the deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

The better solution is to realize that the mileage you get out Chalice varies by matchup, and that you should always have it somewhere in your 75 even if it's only in the sideboard. As it stands, yes, the current Jund-based Aggro Loam has nothing that really replaces Chalice very well, with the possible exception of more removal in the main. However, the issue here then becomes Bob, who will punish you for losing 0cc spells from the main. I think the Russian approach is a good illustration of what the deck would do if it dropped Chalice, as Swords is quite good and Bolt gives the deck a bit more reach. I've actually been working on a similar build independently, so I find it both funny and awesome that someone half a world away built something similar to what I had done, and without me seeing his list beforehand. I'll post what I've come up with after I do some testing, but that will have to wait until next week when I go on spring break and have the time to get lots of games in.

[kortero]

On the subject of Chalice, it's nuts against many different decks if you get the nutty land, mox, chalice draw on the play. It's also true that against certain decks, like merfolk or goblins, it really loses it's power after the first turn.

That said, I won't be cutting Chalice from main because in Madrid, there were many times when I couldn't get Chalice on the first turn, but after trading other threats for opponents removal or counters for some time, I got to stick Chalice for one and one beater (now protected against most common removal) to the table to win the game.

In the russian approach, even though Swords in good as removal, and Bolt gives the deck some reach, I really can't think of playing the deck without any means of protecting your own guys with only ~10 in the deck.

[Antonius]

curious, has anyone tried using Scroll Rack as a supplement to Loam? Seems like a pretty broken engine if you can get it online.

[Koby]

curious, has anyone tried using Scroll Rack as a supplement to Loam? Seems like a pretty broken engine if you can get it online.

Scroll Rack was in the primary days of the deck's evolution when it was mostly "aggro" with Loam to feed Wild Mongrel. It still a good tool, but most of the time it's overkill as you just want to smash with big guys and slow down mana production for your opponent.

RE: Chalice in maindeck
I agree with Aggro Zombies in that Chalice is largely matchup dependent. In my metagame, there are a lot of combo decks, and having Chalice@0 is very vital. Against Merfolk, not so much. For Jund-based Aggro Loam, there are very few replacements for the maindeck, and pretty much consist of Raven's Crime, which isn't that exciting anyway.

[Antonius]

I think scroll rack is awesome because its color neutral. Combined with Loam, its nuts. With Sylvan Library, it makes an equally powerful card draw/selection engine, which could sub for Confidant (and black as a whole).
Why go 2 color? I want to see how far you can go with Ancient Tombs or Cities in place of black duals. They make Chalice much stronger and also create potential for MD Trinispheres. Granted, that's a radically different approach to the deck and really just a thought in my head at this time, but it could be worth exploring.

[kortero]

How would you side against CB/Top with Progenitus with my build? (seen on page 2, but with +1 Knight -1 Crusher now)

My sideboard is:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zuran Orb
1 Worm Harvest

So far I've been siding +2 Teeg +2 Grip -1 EE -1 LftL -1 Crusher -1 Knight. Got any better ideas? Do Teegs do enough in the matchup? (disables Natural Order and FoW if stays in play)

[mchainmail]

What is the best way to beat Reanimator, using one of the standard Jund lists? I know we have chalice and Leyline, but is there anything else to really hate them out?

[B is for Big Job]

Faerie Macabre is pretty tech against reanimator

[Aggro_zombies]

What is the best way to beat Reanimator, using one of the standard Jund lists? I know we have chalice and Leyline, but is there anything else to really hate them out?
Splitting your removal package also helps. There are a number of mono-green options to destroy flying creatures, including a card from Urza's that's basically Wrath of God, but green and for things that fly (forget the name). That gets around shroud and Iona naming black, which is the color the opponent should name. If you have Terminate, and the Iona player names green, you can just Terminate Iona and go to town.

That leaves them with basically just Inkwell Leviathan as a good target, but it's not evasive against you and you can block it with a sufficiently large Countryside Crusher.

EDIT: I'm less sold on the Faerie because it gets hosed by discard, but then again in games two and three you can expect Reanimator to bring in bounce in anticipation of Leyline. Discard is less relevant against you because you're not using counters, so most of what the Reanimator player has to worry about comes out at sorcery speed and is too slow to compete with turn one or two Iona anyway. In that case, the Faerie can be quite good.

One thing to note is that you may want to avoid relying entirely on targeted removal because many of Reanimator's creatures have shroud (or psedu-shroud with Iona). The green flying Wrath takes care of Iona, Blazing Archon, and Empyrial Archangel, of which only Archon gets hit by Pulse (and will probably be on the bench in g2 and g3 because it's not very good against us). Edicts kill anything but Iona on black.

Basically, expect Iona to come out first against you every time. If you show the other guy a non-standard removal spell, expect something shrouded to come out if that spell was targeted. The shroud guys are all blue, if it helps (Leviathan and Archangel). We don't yet know if Rise has any Eldrazi that would work in Reanimator, but if one has shroud you can expect it to end up in that deck even if it has a DSC- or Kozilek-type anti-Reanimation clause.

Your ideal removal package is thus some sort of non-targeted green flying sweeper and Edicts.

[coraz86]

The green WoG is called Whirlwind. That strikes me as being phenomenally clunky, as it's only good against Iona on black. I've seen Dragon Stompy use Aftershock to cover corner cases like that, which imho is a better option; it's good specifically against Iona on black, and it has other applications (maybe against 43 lands or something, I don't know; I ran a Vindicate in my sideboard once because I couldn't find my fourth Krosan Grip and it turned out to be way better at hitting random unexpected whatever).

Of everything written so far, I'm most for Faerie Macabre, simply because it's the least narrow option. That or you could run Anarchy, I guess.

[mchainmail]

So I ended up going 3-4 today at Jupiter Games, losing to 4-color survival, losing to reanimator, beating RB goblins, beating tempo thresh, losing to merfolk (teammate) losing to dream halls, beating UB AnT.

The card from reanimator that wrecked me the most is sphinx of the steel wind, which dominates our entire deck, and I think it is impossible to win once they resolve one.

[PhanTom_lt]

Went for lunch with him. He now plays -2 Finks -1 Lightning Bolt +3 Qasali Pridemage. I know that at least in Germany, people playing Nikitin Loam (I know of only one, for that matter) avoided getting the list published before the GP but with Dimitry's great finish in Madrid it seems one can no longer hold back on it.

I haven't seen any Lightning Bolts when I played vs him in the GP. He had Oblivion Rings and Pithing Needles from the SB too.

[Julian23]

I can gurantee you he plays 3 Lightning Bolts. From what I've been told Oblivion Rings' main purpose was to combat Dream Halls of which he was scared as hell.

[walkerdog]

So I ended up going 3-4 today at Jupiter Games, losing to 4-color survival, losing to reanimator, beating RB goblins, beating tempo thresh, losing to merfolk (teammate) losing to dream halls, beating UB AnT.

The card from reanimator that wrecked me the most is sphinx of the steel wind, which dominates our entire deck, and I think it is impossible to win once they resolve one.

I have SB Edicts for these types of situations. Just a thought.

[sauce]

Duplicant works pretty well for removing Iona and Sphinx of Steel Wind.
But its kinda slow... If you keep playing vs reanimator just replace the Leylines with 4 Faerie Macabre.

[Sniper]

Some evil applications for the new card of Rise of the Eldrazi:
REALMS UNCHARTED???

[Koby]

I see that the card is better suited for Lands decks, but we could use it here as well to find Wasteland, cyclers, and fetchland.

The problem is that our lands don't inherently do broken things; it's just the volume of them.

[Aggro_zombies]

Some evil applications for the new card of Rise of the Eldrazi:
REALMS UNCHARTED???
I'm not sold. It has more applications in the white builds because those tend to have land toolboxes anyway, but then it overlaps quite a bit with Knight but without the benefit of being able to attack. It's possible that a 43land/Aggro Loam hybrid could be made that would like this card, but I'm not sure how good such a deck would be.

[leander?]

It sucks balls. Period. How is it better than LftL, Intuition or Gifts?

[kortero]

Aggro Loam doesn't really have that many lands that one would want to tutor for. Realms Uncharted would also be good basically only when you have Life from the Loam already in grave or in hand. And this is coming from the mouth of a guy that's playing with Knights in MD.

[malden]

I'm not sold. It has more applications in the white builds because those tend to have land toolboxes anyway, but then it overlaps quite a bit with Knight but without the benefit of being able to attack. It's possible that a 43land/Aggro Loam hybrid could be made that would like this card, but I'm not sure how good such a deck would be.

Lol, this be what you are referring too http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32008.

Would be interesting to put Realms Uncharted in this, but I think the numbers in this deck are really tight already and it would be hard to fit it in this deck since KoTR and Crop Rotation already tutor for the lands you want.

God I wish Tabernacle wasn't so expensive!:cry:

[malden]

It sucks balls. Period. How is it better than LftL, Intuition or Gifts?

For the application of purely finding land it is better or excellent in combination with LftL. For the same cost but in the primary color you are in you get to tutor for an extra card AND keep and extra card, this already makes it better than Intuition for getting the lands you want, but the utility of getting spells is not there. Gifts costs one more and each card has to have a different name on it. You still get to search for 4 cards and keep 2.

In some applications of just finding specific land, its good, while intuition and gifts are better at getting the LftL engine started and keeping it going.

[johanessen]

Also, has anybody tried Sylvan Library as a replacement for Dark Confidant, so the deck can cut down to 3 colors and just run Knight of the Reliquary?

Interesting, but:

-the average life per card is better with Confidant in this deck.
-Confidant is better in multiples.
-Confidant goes the beatdown.

In favour of Library we have:

-On color.
-Hard to remove.

Both cards are similar and good but I'd stay with confidants since the on color fact is not a problem thanks to fetch and moxes, so confidant gives more advantadges than disadvantages.



As a one-of creature witness it`s clearly better than Stinkweed Imp/Terravore.

[kortero]

I'm running with 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Countryside Crusher and 3 Knight of the Reliquary and couldn't be happier. Colorscrew isn't really a problem with Aggro Loam as the deck is packing Mox Diamonds and Life from the Loams. The only basic land I have is a Forest that is fetchable with every fetchland in the deck (4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Verdant Catacombs and 1 Windswept Heath) and that is really the only basic land needed for Life from the Loams and Krosan Grips post board.

I wouldn't trade Dark Confidant for anything.

EDIT: If I've noticed one thing that's "hard" with Aggro Loam, it's making the correct mulligan decisions. Zack Wilson said it quite well at SGC Orlando finals: "I hate that hand that's fundamentally decent enough to make you think 'Well, it might just get there…" Well, most of the time the correct decision is to take a mulligan and this is exactly where Dark Confidant shines in addition to Life from the Loams by making recovering easier or even possible.

[blue_mage]

I’m currently planning to build the 4c variant of this deck mainly because I like Knight of the reliquary a lot. I just lack maelstrom pulse and chalice.

Need some help though, is maze of ith really needed? And in addition is burning wish really needed in Aggro loam builds?

Our meta is like 40% rock decks, 25% merfolk, Bant, thresh, 15% Zoo and goblins, 10% ANT and 10% reanimator.

I would really appreciate the help. Thanks!:smile:

[Nelis]

Interesting, but:

-the average life per card is better with Confidant in this deck.
-Confidant is better in multiples.
-Confidant goes the beatdown.

In favour of Library we have:

-On color.
-Hard to remove.

Both cards are similar and good but I'd stay with confidants since the on color fact is not a problem thanks to fetch and moxes, so confidant gives more advantages than disadvantages.


You're forgetting the most important benefit of Sylvan Library. You may dredge the cards you would draw. And it lets you dig deeper for answers too.

[kortero]

I’m currently planning to build the 4c variant of this deck mainly because I like Knight of the reliquary a lot. I just lack maelstrom pulse and chalice.

Need some help though, is maze of ith really needed? And in addition is burning wish really needed in Aggro loam builds?

Our meta is like 40% rock decks, 25% merfolk, Bant, thresh, 15% Zoo and goblins, 10% ANT and 10% reanimator.

I would really appreciate the help. Thanks!:smile:

I haven't played with Maze of Ith, but I don't really feel that Maze is necessary. Most of the time Aggro Loam isn't on the defensive anyway and sadly Maze doesn't do anything against the most "problematic" guy, Progenitus. I have also never played with Burning Wish so I can't comment on that.

If you're going for 4c build, I'd suggest trying out what I have sleeved right now:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Sejiri Steppe

The lone Forest can be found with every fetchland. Most of the time you want to fetch Taiga -> Badlands -> Plateau to have three red mana for Seismic Assault, but of course it depends also on what you have in hand. Against decks with manadenial you naturally want that Forest first. Luckily Mox Diamond makes life really easy if you happen to draw one.. or two.

I wouldn't go under three Seismic Assaults since that cards has just always been too awesome for me. I have a 3/3 split on Crusher and Knight since I can't really decide which one I like the most. But hey, what's better than to flip couple of lands to Crusher and then reveal a Knight, that enters the battlefield huge as hell?

About the lands, Volrath's Stronghold has been good enough to keep a spot in the deck. Barbarian Ring enables some funny combat tricks with Knight and of course gives the deck some additional reach. Sejiri Steppe is my latest tech which I haven't really tried out yet. It's for the same use as in the Mythic deck in standard. Sometimes you just have to get your BIG beater through your opponents defence (untapped Progenitus for example) and Steppe offers also additional protection against removal with Knight on the table. If it's not good enough, I'll switch it back to the third Tranquill Thicket.

Anyway, I'm not planning to "sell my views to everyone" or to "hijack this thread" or anything. I just thought I might provide blue_mage (and of course others) a good starting point (in my opinion) for a 4c Aggro Loam with some explanations on the card choices.

-kortero

[thefreakaccident]

Why isn't anybody trying to make this deck completely degenerate?

You really can if you just include bloodghast... Here's a list to look over:

lands//24
3 wasteland
1 volrath's stronghold
4 wooded foothills
3 baron moor
3 forgotten cave
2 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
2 taiga
2 badlands
1 forest

spells//22
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 small pox
4 cabal therapy
4 mox diamond
4 burning wish


creatures//14
4 bloodghast
4 tarmogoyf
4 countryside crusher
2 eternal witness


You can make the following plays:

after having dredged through bloodghast

1. play a fetch that you get with loam -> get back bloodghast -> sac bloodghast to therapy, fetch with the fetchland, bring back the bloodghast
2. small pox sacrificing the bloodghast, or even better discarding it and then being able to get it for 'free' later
3. devastating dreams wiping the entire board, either destroying your bloodghasts on board or discarding them for the devastating dreams... play a land and you have threats (maybe hasty threats depending on the gamestate) when they have a clear board.
4. simply dredging loam and then playing it for the land to instantly bring back all your ghasts.


The inclusing of small pox, devastating dreams, and wasteland/loam also give this list a powerful manadenial strategy, not to mention that crusher gets HUGE with most of these.

Smallpox can be a bitch if you have a goyf and no ghast or other critter, but playing smart and not poxing at inappropriate points in the game help with that.


The burning wishes can be cut down in favor of other cards, but i like the utility even if it is a little slow.

The deck is actually a lot of fun, because it can get silly being able to dredge therapies and ghasts and just playing them for 'free' just b/c you can get your lands back.

Very suceptible to yard hate, but keeping fetches and burning wishes on standby can save your ghasts and loams should the opp want to nuke your yard with relics/crypts.

Anyways, thoughts, comments?

[Aggro_zombies]

I've been trying to make it degenerate. Bloodghast is nice, but a 2/1 that can't block but doesn't die isn't exactly the definition of "degenerate" in this format. Discard is also much worse as a disruption option than Chalice in most cases.

Natural Order, on the other hand...

[thefreakaccident]

The card is retarded in the fact that you can make devastating dreams sooooooo unfair... and him + therapy + loam is just stupid b/c you can keep your dredge mechanic going, and for no cost you get both critters and disruption... You should try out the list, the interactions are actually quite nice.

[nodahero]

Cabal Therapy doesn't play nice with Chalice... If you are not running chalice as I see you are not, then I would venture to GUESS that you are not running enough disruption to go toe-to-toe with combo and reanimator.

[thefreakaccident]

Chalice or not, combo has never been a positive MU for any non-blue loam deck to my knowledge.

I think you should simply prioritize your MD slots to make sure that you don't lose against other common decks (merfolk, goblins, threshold, zoo)...

If you're so worried about combo and reanimator, then you shouldn't even be playing this deck anyways.

If you guys hate the idea of bloodghast, that's fine.

I will just stick to playing it... Being able to rape with bloodghasts after just sweeping the ENTIRE board with dreams is just too much for me to pass up.

[blue_mage]

I haven't played with Maze of Ith, but I don't really feel that Maze is necessary. Most of the time Aggro Loam isn't on the defensive anyway and sadly Maze doesn't do anything against the most "problematic" guy, Progenitus. I have also never played with Burning Wish so I can't comment on that.

If you're going for 4c build, I'd suggest trying out what I have sleeved right now:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Sejiri Steppe

The lone Forest can be found with every fetchland. Most of the time you want to fetch Taiga -> Badlands -> Plateau to have three red mana for Seismic Assault, but of course it depends also on what you have in hand. Against decks with manadenial you naturally want that Forest first. Luckily Mox Diamond makes life really easy if you happen to draw one.. or two.

I wouldn't go under three Seismic Assaults since that cards has just always been too awesome for me. I have a 3/3 split on Crusher and Knight since I can't really decide which one I like the most. But hey, what's better than to flip couple of lands to Crusher and then reveal a Knight, that enters the battlefield huge as hell?

About the lands, Volrath's Stronghold has been good enough to keep a spot in the deck. Barbarian Ring enables some funny combat tricks with Knight and of course gives the deck some additional reach. Sejiri Steppe is my latest tech which I haven't really tried out yet. It's for the same use as in the Mythic deck in standard. Sometimes you just have to get your BIG beater through your opponents defence (untapped Progenitus for example) and Steppe offers also additional protection against removal with Knight on the table. If it's not good enough, I'll switch it back to the third Tranquill Thicket.

Anyway, I'm not planning to "sell my views to everyone" or to "hijack this thread" or anything. I just thought I might provide blue_mage (and of course others) a good starting point (in my opinion) for a 4c Aggro Loam with some explanations on the card choices.

-kortero

@Kortero: Thanks a lot. Below is the list I’m currently testing. Just saw the list got 3rd out of 60 players. But I just tweak it a little.

I agree with the lone forest. I was also testing a list similar to the one you have posted above. But I kind of like to have burning wish main deck so as to have access to my SB game 1.

I like maze of ith because it can stop big creatures or even iona.

I have a question though what is the right number of lands for aggro loam builds? I have seen list with 25, 26 and even 27 lands?

Is engineered explosives really needed maindeck?

And what do you side board in against combo deck? Blue decks and aggro decks?
And what do you take out.

Again thanks :)

I’m planning to play this deck in a GP. So need all the help that I can get.

Mainboard:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond


4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Tranquil thicket
1 Forest

# 60
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void
2 Firespout
1 Worm Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chainer’s edict
2 Choke
# 15

[kortero]

You can manage with 26 lands, but I prefer to play with 27. At some point of my magic "career" I just realized that it's better to have too many rather than too few lands. I would never go down to 25 lands.

To be honest, I don't know anything about builds with burning wish, but I like to have 2 maelstrom pulses and 2 engineered explosives MD. They are pretty much always useful, and against storm combo, they are the cards I take out.

Sideboarding is also kind of different with wishless builds such as mine. Anyway, against storm combo, -2 pulse -1 EE +2 gaddock teeg +1 ethersworn canonist. Against merfolk & goblin, -4 chalice +4 firespout. Against zoo, -4 confidant +4 firespout. Against "Countertop decks", -1 loam -1 knight -1 crusher -1 seismic (-1 pulse -1 EE) +some combination of krosan grip, gaddock teeg and perish. Leylines come in against lands, dredge and reanimator. Against enchantress I have only 2 krosan grips.

I can't really give you any advice how to sideboard with a build with burning wishes. You're list looks weaker against storm combo since you don't have any of the hatebears. Devastating Dreams is also pretty risky against "blue" opponents, but the list you posted might be better against aggro decks (-merfolk) than mine. However, my record against aggro decks is still pretty good with 4 firespouts from sideboard and 3 MD seismic assaults.

Burning wishes and devastating dreams are pretty much a simple matter of preference. I just can't think of good enough reason to include them in my aggro loam. :)

Ps. I still play with the exact list I posted earlier. It works like a charm.

[Jayzonious]

So I've recently put this deck together and settled on the following list. I'm unsure of the ability for 2 Bojuka Bog to sufficiently hate the graveyard. Knight of the Reliquary can at best fetch it out on turn 3, while most graveyard based decks are very fast such as Reanimator and Ichorid. I would like to fit Leyline of the Void in the sideboard but I'm not sure what to remove.

4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire

1 Forest

3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou

1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold

3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
2 Seismic Assault

2 Engineered Explosives

3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

Sideboard:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Perish
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Firespout
1 Shattering Spree
3 Zuran Orb
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nomad Stadium

[supachai]

So I've recently started putting Aggro Loam together, and I've been having a little trouble how to fit everything in.

This is the build I'm currently at:

Aggro Loam

MD

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

4 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams

3 Seismic Assault

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold*
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp

If I were to try a Wish Build, I'd probably go -2 Explosives, -1 Witness, -1 Loam, + 4 Wish. I'd rather not cut Devastating Dreams from the main as it has been so good against anything aggro. Jayzonius (or anyone), do you ever feel that Burning Wish into Dreams would be too slow against faster aggro decks? Wouldn't you prefer to have them in the main? Also, is Explosives necessary?

[Aggro_zombies]

If your meta is infested with non-blue aggro decks, Wish into a sweeper can be quite slow, especially if the sweepers you're using are Dreams. You're better off running Firespout in the main and Wishing for Dreams as a way to break through. Firespout costs more mana total, but is better against a deck like Zoo because you have a better shot at killing their team without putting yourself in awkward situations where you have to Mind Twist yourself to get anywhere.

In case you haven't noticed, I really don't like Dreams. It's dead weight in the blue matchups, which is most of an expected SCG-type field right now.

Wish is the place where tempo goes to die. In a format as tempo-oriented as Legacy, I would stay away from it and instead focus on flexibility and redundancy in the main.

[Jayzonious]

Well yeah Burning Wish is alot slower, but I still run it for several reasons. It can really make a big impact on a game.

I agree with Aggro Zombies on DD, It's an insanely powerful card but it is very situational. It's a dead draw vs. blue. You NEVER want to risk having it countered. My single DD on my wishboard has worked perfectly.

[Valtrix]

With Knight of the Reliquary is Glacial Chasm a reasonable 1x to grab, or is that not necessary? It seems like it could really be very difficult for a lot of decks to deal with, and be an easy way to stabilize the game. Sorry if this was brought up already, I just had it on my mind. By the way, unlike Maze of Ith, it does stop Progenitus ;)

[Aggro_zombies]

With Knight of the Reliquary is Glacial Chasm a reasonable 1x to grab, or is that not necessary? It seems like it could really be very difficult for a lot of decks to deal with, and be an easy way to stabilize the game. Sorry if this was brought up already, I just had it on my mind. By the way, unlike Maze of Ith, it does stop Progenitus ;)
It's pretty bad in the absence of Exploration. You sacrifice a land to Knight to go get it, then you have to sacrifice a land when it comes into play, then you're either killing yourself to keep it around or letting it go to the graveyard, and then getting it back with Loam, using your land drop on it, and sacrificing another land.

It's pretty bad in decks that can't get around that at all.

[supachai]

I'll definitely test the Firespout main in place of the Dreams. With Firespout main, Dreams in the Wishboard, is there any reason to keep Explosives? Wouldn't Maelstrom pulse be as good or better for getting rid of artifacts/enchantments? Actually I don't think I even have any more space for Explosives. I might just be taking them out :/.

For Glacial Chasm, we can only recur it with Loam. And even then, we lose a land every turn. Also, that's one less mana-producing land and I'd rather not go under 20. Maybe it could work- some testing is in order.

Unfortunately, finals are next week so I won't be able to playtest much :(.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'll definitely test the Firespout main in place of the Dreams. With Firespout main, Dreams in the Wishboard, is there any reason to keep Explosives? Wouldn't Maelstrom pulse be as good or better for getting rid of artifacts/enchantments? Actually I don't think I even have any more space for Explosives. I might just be taking them out :/.
EE is useful as a way to get around Counterbalance and as an additional answer to problem permanents. It's redundant in most cases with Pulse, but redundancy is one of the core principles of modern Aggro Loam, so it may not be a bad thing. I'll agree that it can be lackluster at times, but then again, so is Pulse (pretty rough using it to take out a Goyf, for example). EE also costs zero for Bob, which helps reduce the average amount of life loss suffered.


For Glacial Chasm, we can only recur it with Loam. And even then, we lose a land every turn. Also, that's one less mana-producing land and I'd rather not go under 20. Maybe it could work- some testing is in order.
The issue is that it also prevents you from attacking while eating up all your lands, so it's not like you can use it to cover for counterattacks while rumbling in with large guys. If your intention is to buy time, it's pretty bad because you're losing mana production to it while not really answering what the opponent is doing/has done. You could try to Assault the other guy to death, but that becomes increasingly difficult the longer you have to mess around with Chasm - unless, of course, you want to pay the upkeep. But that can't always be done.

EDIT: On the other hand, you could retool the deck to be more like a Lands/Aggro Loam hybrid by running Exploration and ~30 lands or so. This is an interesting option, but you're trading one of Lands' strengths (difficult to interact with) for a better clock - but in a format as adept at answering creatures as Legacy is, it's not clear to me that it's worth it to make that trade. I can maybe throw a sample list together later if people want, though.

[supachai]

The issue is that it also prevents you from attacking while eating up all your lands, so it's not like you can use it to cover for counterattacks while rumbling in with large guys. If your intention is to buy time, it's pretty bad because you're losing mana production to it while not really answering what the opponent is doing/has done. You could try to Assault the other guy to death, but that becomes increasingly difficult the longer you have to mess around with Chasm - unless, of course, you want to pay the upkeep. But that can't always be done.

EDIT: On the other hand, you could retool the deck to be more like a Lands/Aggro Loam hybrid by running Exploration and ~30 lands or so. This is an interesting option, but you're trading one of Lands' strengths (difficult to interact with) for a better clock - but in a format as adept at answering creatures as Legacy is, it's not clear to me that it's worth it to make that trade. I can maybe throw a sample list together later if people want, though.

Well it doesn't necessarily prevent you from attacking. Just sac it during your upkeep (by not paying the 2 life), swing with your dudes during combat, and then Loam + play it during your second main. It still feels like a pain though. If your opponent has Progenitus out, it's not like you really want to be attacking into that.

Loam/Lands hybrid would indeed be interesting. I think Confidant should be dropped in favor of an Intuition package. Crusher could be kept as a beater and a faster way to find the Loam to get an engine going. Knight can fetch out a one-of Tabernacle or Chasm. The manabase would need some retooling, probably adding Maze of Ith, and the aforementioned Tabernacle and Chasm, along with Rishadan Ports. Chalice and rest of removal package should be dropped, except maybe a lone explosives. I don't know too much about the Lands deck, but here's a list I quickly threw together:

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
3 Rishdan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Isalnd
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
1 Island

Manabase feels VERY shaky. The list just looks like it can't really do what Aggro Loam does well and can't really do what Lands does well. Without Chalice, our fatties are prone to removal. Without enough lands, we can't abuse things like manabond. I really don't think its worth it, but maybe there's a build out there that will prove me wrong. Looking forward to seeing your list Aggro_Zombies.

[luma]

Does this deck have any reasonable answer to Hexmage Depths besides Wasteland? I just can't get to winning a Depths deck, no matter what.

[nodahero]

If you splash white you have StP... If you run Burning Wish you have access to Chainer's Edict which works occasionally.

[Carabas]

Most hexmage decks have their removal costing 2. Land a big beater and a chalice at 2, hopefully keeping a terravore or knight on top of your library with top, in case they have an out+discard?

[HAVE HEART]

If you splash white you have StP... If you run Burning Wish you have access to Chainer's Edict which works occasionally.

An active Knight of the Reliquary can also search out a Wasteland in response to him triggering Dark Depths.

[blue_mage]

I have been playing a 4c build with wish of this deck for months now but I'm having a hard time beating dream halls and zoo?

Any good side boards against this deck? Or against aggro or combo build in general?

I’m planning of adding kitchen finks against aggro match up. In my testing fire spout is just not enough to stop zoo or goblins.

I took out Armageddon and hull breach to have room for gaddock teeg just to add enough hate against combo.

My SB currently looks like this.

1pc Life from the loam
1pc Devastating dreams
2pcs Fire spout
1pc reverent silence
1pc perish
4pcs leyline of the void
1pc worms harvest
1pc shattering spree
1pc maelstrom pulse
2pcs gaddock teeg

[HAVE HEART]

I have been playing a 4c build with wish of this deck for months now but I'm having a hard time beating dream halls and zoo?

Any good side boards against this deck? Or against aggro or combo build in general?

Wasteland keeps Zoo's guys small. Firespout kills all of their creatures, except one. Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares gives you time to play fatties against them. If you go with the L.B./Swords plan, then it is gernally a good idea to cut Chalice of the Void from the deck, which is also Aggro Loam's best card against combo.

[Koby]

I played Aggro Loam in a MTGO Daily Event on 5/06/10 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1193742) going 4-0.

I ran into the following decks: (I didn't take notes on SBing, so these are guesses as to what I did - I literally built the SB 5 minutes before the tourney and haven't played the deck in over 4 months)

Round 1: Reanimtor (2-0)
SB:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Devastating Dreams -2 EE

Round 2: CB-Top Thopters (2-0)
SB:
+2 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 KotR

Round 3: 4c Deed-still (2-0)
SB:
+3 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 EE -1 KotR -2 Maelstrom Pulse

Round 4: Rgb Goblins (2-1)
SB for Game 2:
-3 Dark Confidant -1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Firespout +1 Pernicious Deed

SB for Game 3:
-4 Chalice
+1 Dark Confidant +1 Eternal Witness +1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Seismic Assault

I completely messed up game 2 SB and didn't realize until I started the game. This is where the lack of SB experience showed, but I managed to get control of the game at 2 life and overcome his Wort.

I also noticed a lot of decks just scoop to Chalice @1, which is refreshing since I hate playing the long game vs blue decks with Jace, the Mindsculptor. Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks. It's a good transformation when your opponents bring in creature hate and you side out a few dorks for the Seismic plan. In those matches, you have time to reach the late game to allow S.Assault to become inevitable. Also, even with the prevalence of g/y strategies - I did not run into any graveyard hate.

One last note: there was not a single Dredge deck in the tournament due to the card being banned online for game rules reasons. This may contribute to why there was a lack of yard hate, and made my matches a bit easier.

[Aggro_zombies]

Congrats. What dredge card is banned online?

I'll agree that Assault is probably not strong enough in the main anymore. How did you like Dreams? That also seems like a weak card, and you sided some of them out against blue quite often.

@supa: I wasn't able to come up with a list I liked, sorry. The issue seems to be that Lands and Aggro Loam are the most stable designs in their respective niches, and combining them leads to a lot of situations where you end up with something that makes you go, "But wouldn't this just be better as Lands/Aggro Loam?"

[kortero]

Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks.

I'd like to know exactly what aggro decks you are talking about since I haven't basically lost a game against Zoo, Merfolk or Goblins when I have resolved Seismic Assault early on or later in the game. :)

-kortero

[Koby]

@ AZ - Bridge from Below is banned since the 2nd ability doesn't actually exile them, hence making them unstopable thru creature sacs.

I really like DD against aggro, which I was expecting much of (Goblins, DnT, Bant). It just completely takes away any chance they have. Especially after throwing down a beater. I think I cast DD@2 multiple times this tourney. It's the best card vs tribal.

I don't like DD against decks running FoW generally, but they do buy so much tempo when you get them off. Mostly, its the issue of discarding your hand that I board them out as ineffective.

Against Reanimator - they don't do anything but destroy land - hence dead card (Wasteland does this too without slowing you down). My opponent scooped to Leyline on turn 2, and I don't think he was expecting Leylines. He seemed unprepared for hate.

Against CB-top much the same, but luckily I didn't have to face an active Counterbalance. Lucky me. I usually scoop vs active CB-top. I was able to get Wasteland recursion via Loam to prevent Jace/Humility/Moat/Deed from coming online then finally cast a threat.

My strategy against blue decks: board out DD, Crusher(s), and some removal for Witness, Seismic Assault, and Grips when appropriate. I find that late game I rely on Volrath's Stronghold recursion to setup good board states, and Witness gives me access to any card in the yard. Seismic Assault negates their creature hate, and Grips remove Relics/CB/Tops/Moat/etc.

It seems like the tourney's meta wasn't ready for Aggro Loam this tournament, as another Aggro Loam variant running the older Wish lists also made 3-1. (link to tourney in previous post).

[Koby]

I'd like to know exactly what aggro decks you are talking about since I haven't basically lost a game against Zoo, Merfolk or Goblins when I have resolved Seismic Assault early on or later in the game. :)


Against these decks, I'd rather get a big guy out, then go for DD to seal the game up. Seismic Assault usually sits in my hand being uncastable both due to it's restrictive cost, and opponent's Wastelands nailing my red sources. In this respect, Goyfs and KotR are easier to cast. I did lose G1 to Goblins because he wasted my only 2nd red source with DD in hand.

[supachai]

@supa: I wasn't able to come up with a list I liked, sorry. The issue seems to be that Lands and Aggro Loam are the most stable designs in their respective niches, and combining them leads to a lot of situations where you end up with something that makes you go, "But wouldn't this just be better as Lands/Aggro Loam?"

No probs. I don't think its the direction we should be taking this deck anyway.

I agree on the Dreams. A couple maindeck is always worth with it, despite running into blue deck. It just kills all the other aggro decks.

Does anyone find the Merfolk matchup surprisingly difficult? They can just really quickly drop a ton of lords before I get to stabilize. Aether Vial is also very annoying when I want to wipe the board with a Dreams. And not to mention Force of Will. Is there anything we can put in the maindeck to help this?

[kortero]

I played Aggro Loam in a MTGO Daily Event on 5/06/10 (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1193742) going 4-0.

Just checked the decklist you had. It was nice to see that it was almost the same decklist that I have played for couple of months. MD Differences are -3 Seismic -1 Sejiri Steppe +3 DD +1 Bojuka Bog. Anyway, differences are quite marginal and I'm satisfied that this kind of build has worked for someone else too.

Tomorrow is my turn to try out the deck in a legacy tournament. I'm trying a new card in the SB which is Tariff. Anyway, SB will look like this:

1 Tariff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
4 Firespout
1 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void

-kortero

[technogeek5000]

What do yall think about living wish and Llawan Cephalid Empress for Merfolk in a wishboard (im playing two colors and splashing one or two blue duls would be easy)?

[Aggro_zombies]

Does anyone find the Merfolk matchup surprisingly difficult? They can just really quickly drop a ton of lords before I get to stabilize. Aether Vial is also very annoying when I want to wipe the board with a Dreams. And not to mention Force of Will. Is there anything we can put in the maindeck to help this?
This can be the case, yes. I've found that having Firespout in the main and playing much more defensively tends to help. You want to play out as many guys as possible and kill Rejeerey on sight if you can. It's actually a pretty rough matchup if you don't get good hands.


What do yall think about living wish and Llawan Cephalid Empress for Merfolk in a wishboard (im playing two colors and splashing one or two blue duls would be easy)?
That's pretty bad. I don't think the deck should be splashing blue anyway, as the only worthwhile thing you get is Academy Ruins for recurring EE and maybe Intuition. While those are good, they're far too slow for the modern Legacy meta. You're also sacrificing your ability to block against Merfolk in the meantime, making an already poor matchup into a solidly bad one. Splash aside, though, Llawan is good in the Merfolk mirror because it's an uncounterable Wrath thanks to Vial; we'd be better off running Boseiju and thereby having actual uncounterable Wraths.

Besides, there's virtually nothing worth getting with Living Wish (for this deck). Knight of the Reliquary can enable a land toolbox in the main, and there aren't a lot of utility creatures worth running in a wishboard.

[chokin]

Burning Wish > Living Wish for Aggro Loam. And Burning Wish is now too slow.

@Aggro_Zombies - Have you given up NOPro in Aggro Loam? Haven't seen/talked to you in a while. I'm curious about your most recent list. I'm gonna try to get back into playing tournaments in the summer and I may be picking up Aggro Loam :D

[Aggro_zombies]

Burning Wish > Living Wish for Aggro Loam. And Burning Wish is now too slow.

@Aggro_Zombies - Have you given up NOPro in Aggro Loam? Haven't seen/talked to you in a while. I'm curious about your most recent list. I'm gonna try to get back into playing tournaments in the summer and I may be picking up Aggro Loam :D
I've not given up on it so much as switched to another deck that I think will have a better shot at Columbus. My most recent list is something like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus

3 Firespout
4 Life from the Loam
3 Natural Order
2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I think that's it, but I may be missing some cards (lands, most likely). The deck is pretty strong, but I'm not sure if that's due more to surprise factor or actual strength. Assaults should be something else; possibilities include going back to a black splash and having them be Maelstrom Pulses. I'd be kind of interested in testing Sprouting Thrinax in a straight Jund NO shell, but we'll see. I don't think Aggro Loam currently has what it takes to make the top tables in Columbus, given that Reanimator and Storm combo will probably be the two most popular decks going into it: Storm is almost unwinnable and Reanimator is pretty grim even if you have access to both Swords and Edict effects because they can always just get a shroud guy and beat you senseless.

It might be worth swapping Libraries to Scroll Racks. Accidentally drawing Progenitus is kind of a bummer for this deck. Sideboard Terastodon is actually a massive beating against aggro as another NO target (blow up three of your lands and it's almost impossible to race you, plus you can recoup what you lost pretty easily).

The sideboard is kind of up in the air, but I'd recommend starting at:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Terastodon
1 Nomad Stadium

...and going from there.

[coraz86]

I've not given up on it so much as switched to another deck that I think will have a better shot at Columbus. My most recent list is something like this:

(list)

I think that's it, but I may be missing some cards (lands, most likely). The deck is pretty strong, but I'm not sure if that's due more to surprise factor or actual strength. Assaults should be something else; possibilities include going back to a black splash and having them be Maelstrom Pulses. I'd be kind of interested in testing Sprouting Thrinax in a straight Jund NO shell, but we'll see. I don't think Aggro Loam currently has what it takes to make the top tables in Columbus, given that Reanimator and Storm combo will probably be the two most popular decks going into it: Storm is almost unwinnable and Reanimator is pretty grim even if you have access to both Swords and Edict effects because they can always just get a shroud guy and beat you senseless.

It might be worth swapping Libraries to Scroll Racks. Accidentally drawing Progenitus is kind of a bummer for this deck. Sideboard Terastodon is actually a massive beating against aggro as another NO target (blow up three of your lands and it's almost impossible to race you, plus you can recoup what you lost pretty easily).

The sideboard is kind of up in the air, but I'd recommend starting at:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Terastodon
1 Nomad Stadium

...and going from there.

I've been tossing the idea around of dropping Death Cloud in the Dreams slot, but I haven't had time to test it. In your build, it may be excellent; half the reason I'd run it is because you can use Boseiju to make it not garbage against blue (as Dreams tends to be), and your KotRs can tutor up a Boseiju. Boseiju would also help when you're trying to NO, though at some point I suppose the life loss would get awkward.

Flip side being, of course, that triple black will not be easy and will allow people with mana denial and Moons to totally molest you.

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? I haven't had time to test it, but if I do anytime soon I'll wax pathetic on it here.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've been tossing the idea around of dropping Death Cloud in the Dreams slot, but I haven't had time to test it. In your build, it may be excellent; half the reason I'd run it is because you can use Boseiju to make it not garbage against blue (as Dreams tends to be), and your KotRs can tutor up a Boseiju. Boseiju would also help when you're trying to NO, though at some point I suppose the life loss would get awkward.

Flip side being, of course, that triple black will not be easy and will allow people with mana denial and Moons to totally molest you.

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? I haven't had time to test it, but if I do anytime soon I'll wax pathetic on it here.
No, mostly because the consensus up to this point has been that, if you want to reach triple of some color, it's best to get triple red and have a LftL-fueled Fireball that can also kill creatures.

I'm not sure this deck is in a good position to take advantage of Death Cloud. It would be better in a Jund build focusing primarily on being :b::g: with stuff like Blooghast, Exploration, Worm Harvest, etc. You could even run Crop Rotation to find Boseiju.

[kirtash]

what do you think of this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35949

[Justin]

what do you think of this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35949

You should not just post lists (or links to lists) on this site without at least offering some comments of your own. Tell us what you think of the list and what inpired you to post the link. Is this your deck or just one that you saw?

As to your question, it seems like a very standard Aggro Loam list, with the exception of Lotus Cobra. At first glance, the card does not seem like it belongs in this deck. I'm not sure how necessary mana acceleration is for this deck. I would probably replace the cobras with Eternal Witness.

[kirtash]

well, I think there're a lot of zoo decks in my metagame so I was looking for an aggro loam list whick would be able to stop the speed of these decks. I found it in a Spanish forum, the list made a good top in Madrid GP, the inclusion of Lotus cobra accelerates the ability of the deck of ressisting aggro. It has very explosive beginings and can face up to bad matchups (reanimator).

I'm Spanish, so there might be expressions that you wont understand, please, excuse me

[Nidd]

I heard this deck isn't too good in the current format and I see this thread has about 0 traffic. How come? It's a DtB, it's not here because it smells good! People play it and they place with it, or am I missing something?

[kortero]

I heard this deck isn't too good in the current format and I see this thread has about 0 traffic. How come? It's a DtB, it's not here because it smells good! People play it and they place with it, or am I missing something?

It's kind of sad that there is no action with the thread, but no can do. A friend of mine won a small (twentysomething) tournament in Finland some weeks ago with a deck that is basically the same deck that I've posted earlier with a couple of small changes (-1 Knight -1 Land +1 Pulse +1 EE).

I like the fact that Aggro Loam doesn't really have any really good or really bad matchups. Of course some are better and some worse, but if you're a good player that knows the deck, you can do well against the field as a whole.

I'm trying 3 of those Lotus Cobras in my build at the moment, but that's mostly because I've had the same decklist for ages now and I actually really like the guy. There's going to be a big Legacy tournament in Finland in 1,5 weeks and I will be testing a build with Cobras there and I shall post some of my findings unless it's too horrible to think of (0-X-X).

While the deck doesn't really need additional mana acceleration, the worm enables some very funny rounds with fetchlands. I also like that fact that with a turn 2 Cobra, you can play third round three drop through Daze and also waste your opponent if you happen to have that Wasteland, or drop a land, play Crusher and you still have that one mana left for the cycling land to make the Crusher immediately 4/4. Of course these are hypothetical situations, but as I like the Cobra, I'm open for testing it out.

-kortero

[Aggro_zombies]

what do you think of this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35949
I think it's pretty standard, and I think Cobra is out of place. I've tested Cobra a bunch in various build of Aggro Loam, including ones with Natural Order, and the most exciting things you could do with him generally involved making Progenitus on turn two. Most of the time, he made an extra mana or two, chumped a guy, and was generally unexciting. You don't really have any way to take advantage of the mana boost until the very late game (where it improves your ability to Loam multiple times in a turn, making it easier to grow Crushers or burn people out with Assault).


I heard this deck isn't too good in the current format and I see this thread has about 0 traffic. How come? It's a DtB, it's not here because it smells good! People play it and they place with it, or am I missing something?
The deck has a surprisingly weak Merfolk matchup. You're not blue, so Islandwalk doesn't matter, but Merrow Reejerey is basically a Lord of Atlantis because you have so few guys that just one or two Merfolk will tap your team down and allow for an alpha strike. The counters are very good at keeping you off-balance and their creatures scale much better than any other deck's, making it hard to race.

Zoo is not so bad, but it requires you to retool the deck to be able to answer it effectively. Your big guys are on par with Zoo's big guys, but the loads of little guys will get you. I know there are people who swear by DDreams as an answer to Zoo, but in my experience it's been a pretty awkward answer unless you're way far ahead of the Zoo player. You can't kill the biggest threats with it, and Steppe Lynx builds will often sandbag a land or two in hand to make Steppe Lynx better during the mid- to late-game. That means that you'll often Mind Twist yourself, sacrifice most or all of your lands, and the other guy will go land, burn spell, attack, go. Plus, you need at least four lands and a Mox (or three lands and two Mox) to make Dreams not completely hose you versus Zoo.

Firespout in the main is much better. It's not nearly as good at punishing people who are behind, but it's much better at not randomly shooting yourself in the foot.

I think a big reason why this thread gets no traffic is because the deck is much more popular in Europe than it is in America, and even then, it's only "popular" in the sense that maybe a dozen people play it in Europe as compared to a half-dozen in America. Yeah, that's a bit of a joke, but you get the point: the deck is underplayed relative to the format's top-tier decks and therefore there's not a lot of innovation going on.

On the other hand, one of the biggest strikes against Aggro Loam right now is that's it's a pretty fair deck. I know people object to that terminology, but it's true: Aggro Loam doesn't do anything particularly powerful (it's not even the best deck at abusing LftL). It's basically The Rock but with more thematic focus, which just isn't very exciting in a format where you can make 7/7 flying "You can't play half your deck" dudes on turn two, or have five lands in play on turn one, or even just curve with a 3/3 for one, a 4/5 for two, and a 6/6 for three. I've tried to rectify some of this in my work on the deck, and there is a possibility I'll take some of my handiwork to Columbus. Here, food for thought: here's the list I've been tinkering around with recently:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus

3 Firespout
4 Life from the Loam
3 Natural Order
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

3 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Mountain

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave

Bob is pretty overrated in this format - actually, drawing cards for the sake of drawing cards is pretty overrated in this format (as opposed to drawing cards to set up something stupid). Scroll Rack and Life from the Loam are pretty stupid together, and Rack also lets you hide Progenitus if you draw it or set up explosive growth spurts for your Countryside Crusher. I don't think Assault is very good in the main anymore (as it is very slow and taxes your mana base), and it's mostly redundant as a finisher with Progenitus. You have far fewer green creatures than most decks making a Super Hydra, but in this case your goal is to find Arbor and upgrade it into your Pro:Everything dork - and if you fail, you can get Arbor back with Loam. I think the deck is pretty strong in testing, and being only three colors gives it lots of stability. I don't like the four-color versions because there are too many decks that can punish you for being greedy with mana, and then you fall behind very quickly because you're trying to get back on your feet instead of trying to stop the opponent from killing you. Bob is also pretty meh here and Maelstrom Pulse is not sexy enough to make me want to fuck up my mana for it. Yeah, Stronghold can only be activated with a Mox, but that's 1 land in a deck that doesn't often need it - and Stronghold is solid enough that I'm willing to overlook a single off-color activation cost.

Hope that helps. The meta is shifting back into something favorable to this deck (lots of aggro, not much combo and really anemic aggro-control decks), so now is as good a time as ever to pick up the deck and practice.

[Justin]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus

3 Firespout
4 Life from the Loam
3 Natural Order
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

3 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Mountain

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave


I like this list a lot. I've never seen Scroll Rack used in this deck, but you note that it has a number of great uses. It can also let you trade excess land you've drawn from Life From the Loam for cards from the top of your deck (some of which might be spells that help you win). I also like the idea of running EE and Firespout in the same deck. It's either/or with most lists, but this gives you a lot of great removal to be more competative in an aggro meta. This should help your Merfolk and Zoo matchups.

What do you think of Chalice of the Void in Aggro Loam? Do you not like it, or did you omit it simply because you couldn't find room?

One more thought is that you could substitutie Terravore for KotR and go with a RG deck with no splash in order to make the mana base more stable.

[Aggro_zombies]

What do you think of Chalice of the Void in Aggro Loam? Do you not like it, or did you omit it simply because you couldn't find room?
It's in the sideboard, which has about five open spots right now.

Chalice is okay, but not stellar. I mean, yeah, turn one Chalice at one is a beast, but this doesn't happen very often. You're far more likely to get turn two Chalice, which is often a turn too late in some matchups (Merfolk, Lands, and Reanimator being big ones). Pridemage being prevalent in blue-green-based aggro-control decks also makes Chalice much less of a backbreaker there than it used to be. In short, it's still useful, but it's not useful enough for me to want to maindeck it when I could be packing more removal or whatever.


One more thought is that you could substitutie Terravore for KotR and go with a RG deck with no splash in order to make the mana base more stable.
Nah, three colors is fine. Knight is a house and white gives you some interesting sideboard options.

[Mosesthecoot]

Chalice is ridiculous against Storm Combo. If for any reason, it's worth a sideboard slot for that alone. 0 stops petal, mox, and LED. 1 Stops Rit, Brainstorm, Ponder, Duress, Thoughtseize, Rite of Flame...

You mentioned before that our MU against combo is pretty poor. I run 4 Chalice and 3 Teeg out of the board for combo. It has won me games. Even Reanimator... Chalice at 1 stops Tutor, Entomb, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, careful study... It's so good.

[Jayzonious]

Is it possible to play Aggro Loam with blue in it? Seems like it could have alot of good match ups. I found it difficult to run enough Blue spells to include Force of Will though. Anyways, this is what I've come up with and wouldn't mind some critique.

Lands (26)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand

1 Forest

3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

1 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

3 Lonely Sandbar
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland


Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
2 Rhox War Monk

Spells (21)
4 Mox Diamond
3 Daze
4 Counterspell
4 Life From the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Hydroblast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt

What do you think?

[Aggro_zombies]

Chalice is ridiculous against Storm Combo. If for any reason, it's worth a sideboard slot for that alone. 0 stops petal, mox, and LED. 1 Stops Rit, Brainstorm, Ponder, Duress, Thoughtseize, Rite of Flame...

You mentioned before that our MU against combo is pretty poor. I run 4 Chalice and 3 Teeg out of the board for combo. It has won me games. Even Reanimator... Chalice at 1 stops Tutor, Entomb, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, careful study... It's so good.
One Chalice is only okay against Storm, although two might do it. The issue is that you're far less likely to get the Chalice down on turn one than you are on turn two, and even if you're on the play (likely, as you probably lost game one with any version of Aggro Loam), it's still possible for the ANT player to tutor or Brainstorm into a bounce spell (or play a Top, which in some ways much worse for you). If ANT is on the play, the opponent can also hit you turn one with a Thoughtseize/Duress or set himself up to bounce a Chalice before you can even play one.

Teeg is okay as a second line of defense, but if you stick a Teeg without sticking a Chalice first, you're in much worse shape than if you'd played Chalice, or even Ethersworn Canonist. Even if you do manage Chalice then Teeg, it's still possible for the ANT player to topdeck bounce spells - though it's much harder because he has two targets he has to get rid of, and you're applying pressure. Of course, Teeg does basically nothing against the minority of Tendrils decks using Doomsday.

Storm combo was, is, and will continue to be a bad matchup for this deck; one of several, in fact. Your ability to interact with that deck is weak and relies on you winning the die roll and/or losing the previous game played so as to be on the play, and then to basically assemble a four-card combo (two lands, Mox Diamond, Chalice). Even then your chances of winning are largely dependent on how many of the other three cards in your hand are creatures and whether or not you can do enough damage to the ANT player to put him in a position to accidentally kill himself when he does eventually combo off. There is a reason why non-blue decks are generally considered byes for competent combo players, and "Can't do shit to stop them" is a large part of it.

No offense to you, but I've won games against combo without sticking a single Chalice or hate bear. Granted, that version of the deck ran Lotus Cobra and made Progenitus on turn two, but people are notoriously good at remembering matchups where things came together the way they wanted, and notoriously bad at remembering all of the matchups where things didn't come together and they lost horribly. I'm extremely incredulous of the Teeg's ability to push the matchup past 50%, especially when most of the time (probably 70%) you end up dropping game one. In my book, with numbers that bad, it's best to just devote sideboard space to matchups that are marginally bad for you instead of trying to salvage one abysmal matchup while losing points across lots of others.

The deck I presented is reasonably strong against aggro and blue, variable against non-linear strategies like Reanimator or Lands, and weak to ANT/other storm. Against Reanimator, for example, you can actually pick up a lot of games you wouldn't otherwise win against people who just have no idea what they're doing. Right now, I'm working on trying to improve percentage against Lands and Reanimator with sideboard slots, as well as preserving percentage against blue. The results are something like this:

4 Pithing Needle
3 Oust
3 Krosan Grip
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Terastodon
1 Firespout

As you can see, there's no room in this mix for 4 Chalice. You can drop some number of Oust, but against Reanimator you really want to have a two-pronged attack to keep Show and Tell and counter-hate cards from completely ruining you. Speaking of which, Oust is an interesting option versus Reanimator, but it's a toss-up between this and Swords for this slot. Swords is better as a way to manage blue aggro-control decks (side out Firespout, bring in Swords), but Oust gives the opponent less life, which is relevant against Reanimator and sometimes Zoo. Being a sorcery is actually pretty irrelevant against everything but Merfolk, because most decks can't make creatures at instant speed, and the creatures they can make on their own turns usually don't buff their other guys. Potentially letting the opponent get his guy back is a concern against Zoo, but not so much against Reanimator, where "getting his guy back" entails getting another way to put the guy into the graveyard and another way to reanimate, all while potentially facing a bunch of pressure. I'd say Oust is probably better than Swords against Reanimator, worse against Merfolk, and the jury is still out on its performance versus Zoo and blue-green aggro-control. It may go back to being Swords. Feedback would be appreciated.

The tl;dr version: Chalice is good, but I'm pretty disillusioned with it. The hate cards for Counterbalance almost always overlap with the hate cards for Chalice, so your opponents will often have the ability to answer your answer in game two, and you don't have anything really compelling to bring in against them.





EDIT: @Jay: Well, aside from your Merfolk matchup becoming essentially unwinnable, I'm not sure how I feel about that list. The Daze are really out of place and should probably be cut, as I don't think they're really that great at doing what you want them to do. Counterspell seems okay, but they're pretty slow and don't play particularly well with Loam or trying to be aggressive. Overall, it feels like you tried to take the good bits in New Horizons, combined them with the good bits of Aggro Loam, and made something much worse than either of them.

[Mosesthecoot]

I was just saying Chalice was a way to slow/steal/stop? combo in any given matchup. Sure, they expect it. Hell, we're not running blue so your opponent must assume we have SOME kind of hate to this horrible MU, to which they'll bring in their anti-hate. I'm never sold on giving up completely on a particular MU but that may have to be the case.

Teeg isn't JUST for combo either, he's a utility hoser that I just figured I'd mention for tendrils, ETW etc. I like him for his ability to lock down NO particularly but where NO is usually accompanied by Blue it sometimes doesn't get there.

You say your deck is reasonably strong against blue? I'm not doubting it but I always have an awful awful time against blue (my favorite color to play, my least favorite to face). Anything besides the Grips I'm missing?

I still feel justified that bringing in Chalice against Reanimator is worth the slots. Unless they're running ritual... they reanimate turn 2 giving decent time to drop one. They only tend to run Force and a playset of discard spells so its not an awful plan. If the meta I'll be going to has a bunch of it I also like Tariff. If anything, it gets some looks and removes shroud critters that Stp or Oust can't touch.

I may take your advice next time, cut Chalice, and just pray I don't face any combo but I personally hate giving up on MUs.

[Aggro_zombies]

I was just saying Chalice was a way to slow/steal/stop? combo in any given matchup. Sure, they expect it. Hell, we're not running blue so your opponent must assume we have SOME kind of hate to this horrible MU, to which they'll bring in their anti-hate. I'm never sold on giving up completely on a particular MU but that may have to be the case.

Teeg isn't JUST for combo either, he's a utility hoser that I just figured I'd mention for tendrils, ETW etc. I like him for his ability to lock down NO particularly but where NO is usually accompanied by Blue it sometimes doesn't get there.

You say your deck is reasonably strong against blue? I'm not doubting it but I always have an awful awful time against blue (my favorite color to play, my least favorite to face). Anything besides the Grips I'm missing?

I still feel justified that bringing in Chalice against Reanimator is worth the slots. Unless they're running ritual... they reanimate turn 2 giving decent time to drop one. They only tend to run Force and a playset of discard spells so its not an awful plan. If the meta I'll be going to has a bunch of it I also like Tariff. If anything, it gets some looks and removes shroud critters that Stp or Oust can't touch.

I may take your advice next time, cut Chalice, and just pray I don't face any combo but I personally hate giving up on MUs.
Well, combo is a matchup you never want to see anyway. In a meta with a lot of combo, running Aggro Loam with Chalice and Teeg is basically infinitely worse than running blue-green aggro-control, mostly because your ability to stop combo hinges entirely on permanents that the combo player can bounce (as opposed to counters, which are harder to deal with and require significantly more planning to work around). If you give up on the matchup, it only goes from being very, very bad to being unwinnable, but the upside is that you get to dedicate maindeck and sideboard space to improving aggro matchups and solidifying your game against blue.

Speaking of which, you have several tools to beat blue:

Being aggressive. Zoo has a good blue matchup because it's basically straight gas, so it blanks a lot of blue's cards. As a blue player, you can counter Zoo's guys, but then you lose to the burn; alternately, you can counter the burn, but then you lose to the guys. If you try to split your counters between both (which is what usually happens), the Zoo player can run you out of counters by repeatedly throwing very dangerous things at you. Sure, you can hold a counter to let Tarmogoyf resolve if you're afraid of Knight, but that Tarmogoyf will get you - but countering means you have your pants down if the opponent follows it up with Knight. The philosophy of Aggro Loam (any version) is similar in that you want to play as many must-counter threats as possible to reduce the value of your opponent's counters in general. Your goal is to win in the quality department by being as proactive as possible. My latest version is pretty proactive, but like many Aggro Loam builds, there are a number of board control elements that don't really fit that plan, so you end up being Zoo lite where some of your draws are dead, but hopefully a lot less often than your opponent's draws.
Go big. Most blue decks have Tarmogoyf, RWM, and V. Clique as their largest creatures. In Aggro Loam builds running white, Tarmogoyf is actually your smallest creature, which means you're mostly in command of the combat step. You can put tons of pressure on the opponent with only a few creatures because all of them will be huge, forcing the opponent to block a lot to stay alive. There are two caveats to this: first, New Horizons; second, most other blue opponents tend to run a lot of creatures that are good at chumping (Pridemage, Hierarch, RWM). New Horizons can match you in the big guy department, but you have the ability to make your Knights bigger and can selectively make Crushers larger than Terravores by using Loam to get lands out of the graveyard pre-combat. The other blue decks can chump your big guys and counterattack, which makes something like Seismic Assault effective as a way to clear small creatures out of the way or to end the game quickly if you do punch through (or just to let you leave your guys open to prevent the opponent from attacking).
Don't run bad cards against blue, like Wish or Dreams. The meta is basically split into three main clusters of deck types right now - aggressive decks without counters (Zoo, Goblins), blue-based decks with counters and varying levels of aggression, and non-linear decks mostly immune to Dreams (Lands, combo). The first cluster of decks can be managed with Dreams, but Wish is mostly a late-game trump card there because of how fast these decks are, and how hard they hit. The middle cluster of decks - blue whatever decks with counters - are basically immune to Dreams (nice Mind Twist lol) and will probably let Wish resolve so they can counter the card you get. Dreams can actively lose you the game there, and the traditional "bait counters" strategy makes Dreams much slower and more dependent on active Loam to be big - and even then, Dreams is still pretty horrible against Merfolk and merely "solid" against Counterbalance decks that haven't stuck Counterbalance yet. Speaking of which - Counterbalance basically invalidates Burning Wish as an answer. The last group of decks allow you to get a bunch of utility out of Burning Wish, but most of them can ignore or mitigate Dreams in one way or another (although Wishboards prevent you from really effectively addressing these matchups in games two and three). I feel like cutting the Wish/Dreams package was a good move on McGregor's part at the end of last year, and continuing to run it may be holding the deck back. I don't think either card lives up to the claims of their fans, even in the matchups where they're supposed to be good. Legacy is all about explosive board presence right now; Wish doesn't provide that, and Dreams provides it at a very heavy price.


Obsoleted Aggro Loam lists can occassionally do well, but I think people need to really retool the deck from the ground up to bring it back to the forefront of the metagame. The deck is very proactive and good at scuplting the board, but it faces competition from Zoo in those departments. Zoo is the best deck in the format at being proactive, so Aggro Loam needs something else to give people a reason to play it instead of just seeing it as "crappy Zoo." The importance of the early game in the format makes having a powerful late game less exciting: many decks in the format can have powerful late games, but you often end up having to gut those strategic elements to shift emphasis towards surviving the early game. It's a zero sum game, and Zoo is very good at preying on decks that do this, hence its popularity right now despite the presence of a bunch of explicitly anti-aggro strategies like Lands. In order to thrive in this kind of environment, Aggro Loam needs to focus on its strengths: synergy, power, size, and just enough control to make it all matter. The NO-Loam list is a step in the right direction, although it has a bunch of issues that still need to be dealt with (the curve is awful, for starters).

[Mosesthecoot]

Everything duely noted. My basic list off the top of my head for comparison is:

4x Tarm
3x Knight
3x Vore

4x Loam
4x sTp
4x Bolt
2x EE
2x DD

3x Assault

4x Diamond

3x Thicket
3x Cave
4x Waste
1x Kor Haven
Xx Duals+Fetches+basics

I feel like I have more answers than threats, which isn't very helpful when you're telling me to keep playing them to bait out counters. I don't run Witness or black for Stronghold so I'm wary of going that route with Diamond alone but.. I'm going to miss DD even though playing it is a heart attack sometimes when I'm holding 4 cards and I need one of them.

[Aggro_zombies]

Everything duely noted. My basic list off the top of my head for comparison is:

4x Tarm
3x Knight
3x Vore

4x Loam
4x sTp
4x Bolt
2x EE
2x DD

3x Assault

4x Diamond

3x Thicket
3x Cave
4x Waste
1x Kor Haven
Xx Duals+Fetches+basics

I feel like I have more answers than threats, which isn't very helpful when you're telling me to keep playing them to bait out counters. I don't run Witness or black for Stronghold so I'm wary of going that route with Diamond alone but.. I'm going to miss DD even though playing it is a heart attack sometimes when I'm holding 4 cards and I need one of them.
Bolt seems like the weakest link here, and Dreams could easily be either Scroll Rack or Sylvan Library. In a deck without Progenitus tricks, the latter might be better because of how insane it is with multiple Loams; if you run Crusher, Knight, and Terravore, things will get out of hand very quickly just off of the dredging alone. Speaking of which, I would recommend shaving Vore and an Assault to make room for Crushers.

Something like:

-4 Bolt
-1 Assault
-1 Terravore
-2 DD

+3 Crusher
+2 Sylvan Library
+1 EE
+2 Other

Not sure what you want in the "other" slot there. You could run Firespout, but it has little use against blue decks packing Tarmogoyf, Knight, and RWM. Alternately, those two could also be reasonable meta slots depending on how much aggro versus aggro-control you expect to face, with options including Qasali Pridemage or Oust.

An additional bit of rationale for Library is that it provides a redundant library manipulation engine. Dark Confidant fills this role in traditional Jund builds, which is important because it makes you less susceptible to common graveyard hate (along with the use of Countryside Crusher over Vore) as well as allowing you to "draw" and dredge each turn. Library doesn't allow you to draw multiple times as well as Bob does, but if you have more than one Loam in your yard, you can replace each draw with dredge and not have to put any of the Loams back, which is sweet. In this respect, it's much better than Top - and you don't really have much use for multiple Top activations in one turn, so that's a bit of a wash. I liked Library when I used it before, but Scroll Rack was better at getting Progenitus out of my hand, so I ended up going with that.

I'm not sure about Kor Haven versus Maze of Ith. Untapping the attack creature can be relevant if you're trying to alpha strike, but in most cases your guys should just run over the other team in combat. Importantly, Maze of Ith costs no mana to use, which allows you to devote most of your resources to using Loam repeatedly in a turn.

Have you ever considered Raging Ravine? I like the card a lot as a 1-of, but never found a build where I liked it (mostly because by then I was working around Progenitus). Ravine is interesting because it's kind of like a Crusher that's asleep, but which can wake up at inopportune times and mess up combat math. Importantly, it attacks as a 4/4 the first time, which means the most common creature capable of dispatching it would be Tarmogoyf. In that case, it combos hilariously with Maze of Ith (save the Ravine, but get the counter; next turn, attack with a 5/5). It eats four mana per turn, though, which is a real issue. Another option is Stirring Wildwood, which blocks really well, and for less mana than Ravine. Neither of these lands are particularly necessary given how many large guys you're running, but they are something else that gives Counterbalance fits.

[Mosesthecoot]

Honestly, I miss Crusher a little but because I'm not running confidant, and adding white for Knight, I took him out. I don't know, I particularly like Vore in that spot better because he comes out instantly a beast and Crusher in the late late game, which happens in Loam, isn't as strong as dropping a 9/9 Trampler for the same mana investment. I'm also not a fan of only drawing lands by loaming. Another reason it was betterto have confidant.

With Library, (I've always loved libraries simplistic ruling..) can I replace the first draw with a dredge and look at two off the top and pick one of those to keep for my hand with no life loss? I ran a casual deck with words of wilding a long time back and that's how I was playing it. Just want to be sure before I make a fool out of myself at a tournament because I like the idea of Library

I could see cutting Bolt but I'm not going to be sold on it until I test it. It HAS won me several games where my opponent is worried about the board and forgets that I'm even running it. I got the idea from a Russian build, Nitikin Loam who originally had Pridgemages main in my terravore slot but I opted for a bigger creature than utility and larger Goyf attacks.

I've also been going back and fourth between Maze and Haven. Both have their plusses. Kor makes mana, kor doesn't untap the creature...Maze is free to activate..

I guess it'll just be up to testing. Also, I have firespout out of my board. Thanks for the suggestions by the way

[Mosesthecoot]

Honestly, I miss Crusher a little but because I'm not running confidant, and adding white for Knight, I took him out. I don't know, I particularly like Vore in that spot better because he comes out instantly a beast and Crusher in the late late game, which happens in Loam, isn't as strong as dropping a 9/9 Trampler for the same mana investment. I'm also not a fan of only drawing lands by loaming. Another reason it was betterto have confidant.

With Library, (I've always loved libraries simplistic ruling..) can I replace the first draw with a dredge and look at two off the top and pick one of those to keep for my hand with no life loss? I ran a casual deck with words of wilding a long time back and that's how I was playing it. Just want to be sure before I make a fool out of myself at a tournament because I like the idea of Library

I could see cutting Bolt but I'm not going to be sold on it until I test it. It HAS won me several games where my opponent is worried about the board and forgets that I'm even running it. I got the idea from a Russian build, Nitikin Loam who originally had Pridgemages main in my terravore slot but I opted for a bigger creature than utility and larger Goyf attacks.

I've also been going back and fourth between Maze and Haven. Both have their plusses. Kor makes mana, kor doesn't untap the creature...Maze is free to activate..

I guess it'll just be up to testing. Also, I have firespout out of my board. Thanks for the suggestions by the way

[Aggro_zombies]

With Library, (I've always loved libraries simplistic ruling..) can I replace the first draw with a dredge and look at two off the top and pick one of those to keep for my hand with no life loss? I ran a casual deck with words of wilding a long time back and that's how I was playing it. Just want to be sure before I make a fool out of myself at a tournament because I like the idea of Library
No. Sylvan Library requires you to put two cards drawn this turn back on top of your library. If you only draw two cards (because you replaced one draw with Loam), you have to put both of the other cards back. It doesn't matter which of the three draws you replace, either.

Similarly, if you replace two draws with dredging, you have to put the third card back - but the replacement effect of dredge doesn't count as "drawing," so you'd get two Loams out of the deal.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

What do people think about a blue splash? Notice I said splash, I don't want to turn this into a deck running Fow and CB top. I think, however, that academy ruins is a very strong card with EE and that intuition is worth considering as a 2-3 of to improve the power of loam, as well as giving added flexibility to the sideboard options. Admittedly this was conceived of in a meta where beating reanimator was at the forefront and intuition for fleshbag maruader, volrath's stronghold, and faerie macabre/karakas with a loam in hand seems real spicy.

It might be trying to do to much and not be worth hurting the mana base, but I have liked it so far in testing. Thoughts?

[kkoie]

What do people think about a blue splash? Notice I said splash, I don't want to turn this into a deck running Fow and CB top. I think, however, that academy ruins is a very strong card with EE and that intuition is worth considering as a 2-3 of to improve the power of loam, as well as giving added flexibility to the sideboard options. Admittedly this was conceived of in a meta where beating reanimator was at the forefront and intuition for fleshbag maruader, volrath's stronghold, and faerie macabre/karakas with a loam in hand seems real spicy.

It might be trying to do to much and not be worth hurting the mana base, but I have liked it so far in testing. Thoughts?

Wouldn't it be easier to just run Eternal Witness? To include Acadamy Ruins you would need to develope a 4c manabase, which in my opinion messes up the deck, or cut black, which weakens the deck.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Eternal witness doesn't tutor for loam, and academy ruins costs 3 mana less than recurring witness, plus you need witness to die. Also, this would be along the lines of other 4 color builds that splash for with for Knight of the reliquary, since we are only really running 2-3 blue cards and academy ruins, it is basically adding 2 blue duals. Doesn't seem that much worse for the mana base than any other list.

[polynomial p]

I played the following list at the STL star city tournament today:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

3 Firespout
4 Life from the Loam
3 Scroll Rack
4 Chalice of the void

4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan grip
3 Thorn of Amethyst

I havent played any magic in over a year, but managed to go 3-1-2 before dropping. I made tons of play mistakes and couldn't figure out the right decision quick enough which forced me to go to time in several of the matches.

I drew with zoo, beat reanimator, beat blue land, beat merfolk, drew with GW new horizons, lost to UGW new horizons. If I had played better I could have been 5-1 at that point.

The main deck was solid and chalice was an MVP the whole day. I would not play the tormod's crypt main if I had to do it again. Scroll rack was fantastic too, setting up huge crushers and helping to dig for answers. I never activated Volrath's stronghold once. With this many creatures that are simply beaters, I'm not sure its necessary. Perhaps a blue splash with academy ruins would have been better.

I hope this data helps. I think the deck could do well in this metagame in the hands of a proper pilot.

[Pot Pie Man]

I won a 19-person GPT with the following list:

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
2 Seismic Assault

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Lands
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Legendary Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Zuran Orb
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Perish
1 Raven's Crime
1 Reverent Silence
1 Unearth

Given I didn't play against Zoo, but the Zuran Orbs seem absolutely awful. In the future, I would probably replace them with firespout, as although I was 3-0 vs. Merfolk on the day, I'm still not particularly comfortable with the match-up. I've considered cutting the Dark Confidant for something, but I feel as if running Knight of the Reliquary can be a burden when they bring in their graveyard hate.

[Muradin]

As a conclusion this threads seems to advise for cutting Burning Wish. However what are you doing against Narual Order then? I also find Burning Wish to be slow and vulnerable to Spell Snare but it provies solutions to so many things that are otherwise really scary for this deck. However I have to admit that keeping your opponent from reaching 4 mana via Wasteland was a quite successful way of keeping Progenitus out of the field so far.

Another suggestion I have is adding mandlands to the deck. They help in every blue matchup by either making Standstill obsolete or coming around counterbalance. I'd suggest Treetop Village because it makes green mana and has a relatively fair cost to be activated. It increases the deck's threat density and makes most dedicated control decks a cakewalk. Besides it makes Knight of the Reliquary even more of a monster than he already is in Aggro Loam.

I think that Chalice has lost a lot of its former value since several months. It isn’t that good against Zoo because you have to drop it on the play turn 1 to be effective to it's full potential and that doesn't happen very often. Besides it sucks against Merfolk and most Bant and Zoo decks are running a playset of Qasali Pridemage.

My current list is:

31 Mana
4 Treetop Village
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Mox Diamond


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Firespout
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top

In testing I’ve had quite positive Merfolk and Zoo matchups. Combo has been really fucking bad so far but Bant decks were also quite even in testing, mainly depending on whether and how fast they could get a Counterbalance with 2 and 3 on top of their library and get rid of my beaters. Treetop Village has been pretty strong here so far sneaking out several wins against them combined with Wasteland.

Do you have any suggestions for the sideboard? I am for sure going to run 3 Krosan Grip so I can board out my Firespouts against Bant Counterbalance decks but besides I am not sold on any special other cards yet. Probably I am going to ignore my Storm combo matchup but I’d like to tweak my board so I have several good options against most other decks.

[jazzykat]

It could be me, but I think the format has slowed down some. If that is the case then why would decks (especially those packing DD) not look again to Terravore? KotR is awesome because it can pump itself, but it can be chumped all day. A lategame Terravore=gg with one attack usually.

[3duece]

I think it's too soon to tell, but yes the format might slow down a bit. I've always liked terravore in this deck but lately it seemed people shifted away from the heavy red element with dreams and assault, making it tough to get him large quickly enough. I want to try out this build I'm working on that puts seismic assault back in the main with realms uncharted and a little utility land package.

4 tarmogoyf
4 countryside crusher
2 knight of the reliquary
1 terravore

4 life from the loam
2 realms uncharted
3 firespout
4 chalice of the void
3 engineered explosives
2 scroll rack
2 seismic assault

4 mox diamond
4 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 savannah
2 mountain
1 forest
4 tranquil thicket
1 forgotten cave
4 wasteland
1 bojuka bog
1 barbarian ring
1 treetop village

[Aggro_zombies]

4 tarmogoyf
4 countryside crusher
2 knight of the reliquary
1 terravore

4 life from the loam
2 realms uncharted
3 firespout
4 chalice of the void
3 engineered explosives
2 scroll rack
2 seismic assault

4 mox diamond
4 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
3 taiga
1 savannah
2 mountain
1 forest
4 tranquil thicket
1 forgotten cave
4 wasteland
1 bojuka bog
1 barbarian ring
1 treetop village
Your curve is too high:

1CC: 0
2CC: 14*
3CC: 14

I'm counting Chalice as a two-drop here.

With a curve like this, you're far too slow if you don't open on a Mox Diamond - and if you do, you're still only about as fast as your "average" deck in the format. Opening on land, Mox doesn't actually happen that often unless you're a total sack, so I would recommend trimming some of the lackluster 3-drops and adding more 2-drops. So...

I'm not sure what Realms is doing for you that more Knight of the Reliquary couldn't already do (while also smashing face). Furthermore, your land configuration is odd: you should have more red cycling lands than green ones because you have more green sources, and I'm a little reluctant to run all four Wastelands in a deck that wants :r::r::r::g::g::w: to work completely. I also would prefer a 3/3 Crusher/Knight split, as Knight is pretty beastly and you want more if you're working with a land toolbox. You may also wish to look into running a Riftstone Portal to help with mana fixing (the worst case scenario is that you play it, then Wasteland it, then all your lands tap for colored mana) and Maze of Ith instead of Barbarian Ring.

Qasali Pridemage is a fine two-drop if you want more of those.

[lordofthepit]

Hey guys, new to this thread, but I really like the synergy of the deck.

Just wondering, in what metagames would you choose this over other non-blue aggressive strategies (particularly Zoo and Goblins)? In other words, in what matchups is Aggro Loam better than Zoo and Goblins? Also, I notice Aggro Zombies is dropping black from his list. In what situations would you prefer RGw, and in what situations would you prefer RGb?

[nodahero]

I am in full agreement with cutting Chalice ATM... The question is what to replace it with. ATM I think Diabloic Edict may be a clutch option right now. It gives outs to untragetable beasities such as Emrakul or Inkwell (depending on how the meta goes) and it also offs Progenitus in some situations.

This idea has only been mildly tested so far.

From my previous tourney experience though I often felt the deck could use more removal... The deck often has troubles with multiple creature comming down early.

Perhaps move the Chalices to the board to fight UWx match ups... It is still a beast in those matches.

[Dark Ritual]

The format might slow down enough to make burning wish viable again or it may not. It depends on whether or not zoo or control decks start to be played more. If the meta shifts towards 43/38lands, countertop control, landstill, etc. etc. I can see it being very viable especially because devastating dreams is a very powerful card against lands.dec, potentially wiping their entire board of lands and getting to swing in for the win the same turn with terravore, crusher, or KotR (I'm not a fan of him btw). I don't like KotR for several reasons:

If you cut black to play white, you miss maelstrom pulse, dark confidant, edict effects, removal not at cmc 1 like terminate or smother, along with some other SB options like deathmark. In white you get StP, KotR, and no more chalice because StP is a one drop which is where chalice will always be set at against most of the field sans all those combo decks that will be roaming around with mystical tutor getting banned you can set it for zero there /sarcasm

Right now I plan on going with a wishless build and seriously people I would not play a decklist without at least 1 terravore in it because he is a monster against most of the field currently especially against lands where he can eat them alive if they don't have maze of ith.

A blue splash, I feel, makes the manabase too unstable having to cut basics for volcanic islands or tropical islands to maintain consistency with mana is too much. Cutting black to add blue is also pretty bad losing what I said before very good cards like maelstrom pulse, dark confidant, and edict effects as well as SB options and creature kill.

Also, anyone trying to work on the combo MU will fail miserably unless you devote your entire SB to it. Loam based decks have always had a terrible MU against combo and will continue to have a terrible MU unless some insane card is printed in red, green, or black that is insanely good against combo decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hey guys, new to this thread, but I really like the synergy of the deck.

Just wondering, in what metagames would you choose this over other non-blue aggressive strategies (particularly Zoo and Goblins)? In other words, in what matchups is Aggro Loam better than Zoo and Goblins? Also, I notice Aggro Zombies is dropping black from his list. In what situations would you prefer RGw, and in what situations would you prefer RGb?
Black's main attractions are Dark Confidant, Maelstrom Pulse, and some sideboard cards like Edicts or Extirpate. Of those three, only the last one is truly compelling these days; Bob is terribad against Zoo and weak to totally irrelevant in many other places, while jack-of-all-removal-trades Pulse is just a tad too slow at three mana (it's a bad sign when many of things you want to kill with it cost less). White has Knight of the Reliquary as its main draw, but Knight is retarded, so it's well worth it to add Knight and then retroactively justify moving into white by adding other cards. I don't think going four colors is advisable - you don't want to give Zoo the opportunity to pwn you by using Pridemage to take out Mox Diamond and screw you out of a color at an awkward time.

Right now, I'm not actually sure about this deck's future. I've been trying to come up with ways to make the deck more powerful, since Legacy is increasingly boiling down to decks that get "Power through Efficiency" versus "Power through Trump Cards": Zoo is the flagship example of the former while something like Thopterbalance is a good example of the latter (this deck is just kold to active Thopter Foundry). If your meta is mostly Zoo with some Merfolk to keep Counterbalance decks out, Aggro Loam could be an interesting option; otherwise, it's not efficient enough to win through raw Zoo-ish power, and it doesn't have good enough trump cards to cheat wins like Thopterbalance does. Natural Order was a good start, but it's too often irrelevant. You can't hold the ground well enough against Zoo, so they can race you unless you time things just right; you don't want to be the deck that wins if things come together in just such a way against Zoo, because Zoo crushes those decks when things don't come together. Against blue decks, you don't have any way to protect NO, so you often end up sacrificing a Dryad Arbor and paying four mana to bait a Force while you win on the backs of Knight and Crusher. And putting all of this aside, the deck is just a touch too slow these days without Mox Diamond openers, and just fast enough to be in the game with them. Lowering the curve helps, but not without making sacrifices that are painful.

In short, synergy is worse than both raw power and random "Oops, I win" elements. Therefore, Aggro Loam is probably worse than both Zoo and Thopterbalance. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this deck's time is probably past, at least for now. I would sorely like for the GP to prove me wrong but doubt I will settle on a build in time to be the one to do it.


From my previous tourney experience though I often felt the deck could use more removal... The deck often has troubles with multiple creature comming down early.

Perhaps move the Chalices to the board to fight UWx match ups... It is still a beast in those matches.
Chalice probably still deserves a slot, but keep in mind that it's expected; Thopterbalance or a Landstill-esque deck will have answers to it in game two. At the very least, EE at zero from both decks kills your Chalice. As far as Counterbalance is concerned, a combination of Chalice and Null Rod seems right, even if Null Rod shuts off your own Diamonds (you don't need them much after turn one here anyway).

Edicts seem okay, but only against blue "Cheat Fatties" decks. If you want more targeted removal that's widely relevant, you have Terminate (good but sometimes too slow), Deathmark (surprisingly versatile given its targeting restrictions, but bad against Goblins), and Lightning Bolt (better against Zoo/Goblins and doubles as reach, but not against blue aggro-control decks).

[lordofthepit]

Thanks for the thorough breakdown.


In short, synergy is worse than both raw power and random "Oops, I win" elements. Therefore, Aggro Loam is probably worse than both Zoo and Thopterbalance. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this deck's time is probably past, at least for now. I would sorely like for the GP to prove me wrong but doubt I will settle on a build in time to be the one to do it.

That's diappointing to hear, but on the other hand, I also do enjoy playing with the decks that I play right now, Zoo included. :-)

[hyggli]

My list is the following

1 Glacial chasm
1 Volrath's stronghold
4 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wasteland
1 Treetop Village
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Malaterra
4 Tranquil Thicket
3/4 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
0/1 Mountain

3 Dark Confidant
2 Terravore
4 Countryside crusher
3 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Seismic Assault
4 Burning wish
3 Life from the loam
4 Chalice of the void
4 Mox diamond
2 Devastating Dreams

sb
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pulverize
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Chainer's edict
1 Bojuka bog
1 Firespout
1 Morningtide
1 Life from the loam

meta choices 2 between:
3 Solitary confinement / Krosan grip / Jund Charm / Zuran orb

Manabase is not solid, but I almost never get screwed. Try and stick a crusher just when needed and no problems occur via loam recursion.
The chasm is not necessary . with bwish and devastating + 16 creatures to take the board are enough. Merfolk is a very odd problem, but I'm givin' away that matchup anyway. Maelstrom pulse can be a viable choice ofc in sb to not let him play too many lords. Devastating is very bad here or vs thresh
Post-sb storm match is quite playable but not that much.
Chalice is impossible to renounce at and I would like to find a slot for Hull breach in sb. Right now it's not there cause of too many cbalance decks around. That pyroclasm is removable.

better matchups: goblin,zoo,thresh, prison
worses:ant,belch,reanimator,merfolk

the others are almost all around 50/50

[Neuad]

Haha this deck is so much fun.

Just played a MWS match and was down to 3 life, and he had 2 Reliquary's and a 2/2 on the board. I managed to get Crushers in play and Life up and running, then top decked a witness to pull out Assault.

[SARCASTO]

This used to be my favorite deck and I played it religiously for a few years winning a bunch of duals, a lotus, and the first St. Louis Starcity 5k, but I think its time came to an end when reanimator got good, and will probably not make a huge comeback now. One thing you have to ask yourself when picking up this deck is what matches are better than 43 lands? The slow card advantage engine of loam is not doing anything really broken other than drawing cards and with the amount of tribal guys decks ( and zoo) picking up that plan is a little too slow. With goblins builds pretty much all main decking wierding it makes the match up even worse as often before you could just stonewall them.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on what matches they thought were better than Lands and why, as I am currently at a loss to advise anyone to go to a tourney with this deck.

[Hanni]

but I think its time came to an end when reanimator got good

This decks time came to an end when they decks it beat up on (blue) started running Counterbalance.

For the record, I still think this deck is viable, it just needs a huge overhaul.

...this probably doesn't belong in here, and I already posted it in the UGb Intuition Thresh thread where it belongs, but I guess it doesn't hurt to post it here:

U/G/w Bant Loam

Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
2 Lonely Sandbar
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (26)
1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

[Neuad]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [ROE] Forest (1)
1 [ROE] Mountain (1)
2 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
2 [R] Taiga
3 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [GP] Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 [U] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [10E] Seismic Assault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [IN] Wallop
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 1 [HOP] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [FNM] Chainer's Edict


Here's the deck I stole from somewhere and edited as I saw fit. I really like it playing on MWS so far. Going to put it together and test it at a legacy FNM type deal on Wedensday.

I'd like to fit a 1 of Terravore in there somewhere. . .but I don't know what I should drop to get him. Only thing I can think of is 1 Forgotten Cave. But then I run into wanting to put a 4th goyf in there. Although thats an easy decision seeing as my group of friends only has 3 goyfs between us that aren't being used.


Edit 2 - Knights for more land fixing, or waste locking. Took EE's out to add them in so I'll see how it works. Added a Plateau to support the Knights, took out a Taiga for that. Took out a Forgotten Caves to fit a Skarrg in there. Give one of my crushers trample making them unstoppable.

[blue_mage]

I still believe in this decks power. Especially now that combo decks are not that strong anymore, with the banning of mystical tutor. If the meta shifts more to aggro I think this deck will be a tier one deck once more. It just needs to be tweak maybe?

I ‘m having success so far with my 4C loam. It’s not that dominating but its enough to put it at the top rankings. It’s just that I’m having trouble with goblins. Anyone who could help me out? I’m thinking of adding glacial chasm or tabernacle at pendrell vell

[Neuad]

// Lands
1 [ROE] Forest (1)
1 [ROE] Mountain (1)
2 [R] Badlands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [EVG] Forgotten Cave
2 [R] Taiga
3 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [GP] Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 [U] Plateau
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [10E] Seismic Assault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [IN] Wallop
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [HOP] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [FNM] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [UL] Unearth


How does this deck look? SB is obviously a wishboard not counting Leyline and KGrip

[Eddy Wally]

I used to play this deck in every tournament I participated in for almost two years, and every matchup was winnable (though not always positive) except storm combo. Unfortunately, storm combo is quite popular where I play (belgium). I had thrown the deck aside, until I saw that tutor was banned, and that they made a beautiful new white leyline (I played 4 colours, with a build tailored around personal experience and cards I enjoy playing with). I may just pick up the deck again.

Here's my list, the main deck (sideboard is completely different compared with a few months ago) top 8'ed a few times, but never a win.

4 wasteland
1 mountain
1 forest
2 forgotten cave
3 tranquil thicket
1 arid mesa
1 windswepth heath
1 verdant catacombs
4 wooded foothills
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 badlands
1 bayou
3 taiga
4 mox diamond
4 swords to plowshares
1 oblivion ring
4 dark confidant
3 seismic assault
4 countryside crusher
4 life from the loam
4 tarmogoyf
3 terravore
2 terminate
2 knight of the reliquary

sb:
3 pithing needle
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
2 krosan grip
2 gaddock teeg

It does pretty well in the mirror match, because it is slightly more aggro than the lists I usually encounter, has more spot removal and also has terravore (I flat out love that thing, I may drop one for an extra knight, but wouldn't go below two). The knight is very good too, but I only run two because I don't really have a toolbox.

The single O-ring is there because it's easier to cast than a pulse, and won't whack my own goyfs, unlike a pulse. Also, it's an enchantment, which boosts goyf in case it gets dredged.

I played with the idea of adding red-white Ajani, but that'd be way too slow. It'd be a cool surprise factor though.

Sideboarding: The leylines are self explanatory.

Gaddock Teeg is good against both natural order and storm combo, the pithing needles work against vial and countertop, and grip is good against loads of things.

I have a tournament this weekend. I had planned on playing countertop, but now that I think I have a chance against storm with the recent changes, I'll probably pick up my beloved loam deck again.

Constructive critique is always welcome.

[sillysam71]

I would really like to play some form of this deck at the GP, but I see a huge problem when it comes to the Aeon Bridge matchup. I think that deck is going to be popular enough where it creates huge problems for this deck. Any thoughts for this matchup?

[FoulQ]

I ‘m having success so far with my 4C loam. It’s not that dominating but its enough to put it at the top rankings. It’s just that I’m having trouble with goblins. Anyone who could help me out? I’m thinking of adding glacial chasm or tabernacle at pendrell vell

Hi, I'm a goblins player and I'll speak from my experiences about this matchup. I consider it about even. Here are a few of my thoughts. Take them or leave them, I don't care.

Devastating Dreams, EE, and sb Firespout are all measures to take. Aether Vial is one of the main problem cards and needs to be destroyed because it allows for them to recover from dreams (usually plan A).

Also, you must make sure to have some basics of course. Although goblins only has 4 waste (and sometimes port) to hurt your mana and you have loam to recover, it's often enough to cut you off a splash color for sideboard cards (ex. firespout)/EE color/DD second R, and oftentimes loaming for wasted lands is enough of a tempo loss that the goblins player is satisfied anyway.

Basically goblins has two options against DD versions: race them before DD comes online, or plan for DD. For me, the strategy is based on my opening hand, but I think most goblins players will just blindly race.

At first aggro loam seems to have a large advantage over goblins. It has a lot of board control elements, and goblins loves the battlefield (ugh I still hate the word change). But you are often tapping out to play a spell that has no immediate effect on the board...dark confidant, loam, countryside crusher, cycling, EE, etc. And if goblins can deal with your tempo sink in appropriate time then you just suffered a HUGE tempo loss, giving goblins a couple turns while you didn't accomplish anything. Stingscourger, Warren Weirding are both problems, so you need to make sure you have enough creatures (and the capability of casting the creatures) to combat goblin removal. The only problem with this is disynergy with DD, BUT if you have active loam and a plan for post-DD, you should be fine. Most goblin players are too dumb to trick the loam player into DDing while they have say, mountain + lackey in hand patiently awaiting DD.

Also know what the goblins player is likely to bring in SB. Most play GY hate and will bring it in against loam, most often crypt/relic. Smart goblins player will try to make it a tempo game with cards like stingscourger. Aggro Loam is actually lucky because it will win the card advantage attrition war with goblins, ringleader vs. loam.

The situation you DO NOT want to get into is being comfortable with your large creatures. Even 2 goyfs on the table will not stop goblins. Most of the time if I get wins against the loam player is when they are stupid. I know this sounds trivial, but the point is: your safety is very important and always in jeopardy, and you will win the late game attrition war most of the time as long as you have board sweepers. Goyf alone or just 2 fatties can always be taken care of by goblins in moments. Basically what this means is KILL WARCHIEF ON SPOT, especially if your goblins opponent has a mid to full sized hand size. Ex. with JUST warchief in play against 2 of your goyfs I can do stingscourger/lackey/piledriver, and now have to decide between letting in my lackey or letting 7 power come through. Either way you are taking 5 damage possibly 11, and if you don't have an immediate answer to the piledriver you are probably screwed (unless the goblins player has nothing off lackey, but do you want to take that risk? usually no).

Another important thing to do is to identify the goblin player skill. Only smart goblin players will save sting/lackey/piledriver alpha strike for when the time is right, most will look at their hands and think "piledriver turn 2 lol." Once you know how good the goblin player is you can make a plan. Most you can just race with DD and you will win. If you arent playing DD...well, if you aren't you definitely need SB firespout or accept the matchup as unfavorable.

The matchup is all about tempo and DD in my opinion.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@foulq: Very true. When I originally played Loam I found it slightly in favor of Loam. But not by much though. However, I haven't played the matchup since Warren Weirding caught on so I'm not sure how that effects the matchup. Gobbos are really afraid of: multiple Goyfs/Crushers, DD, and Seismic Assault. Assault just flat out wins the game with a Loam in the yard, but you can potentially outrace Loam if they have just 2 blockers or something. I ALWAYS tried to mull into a hand with Wasteland/Mox/DD and /or BW in it. DD on turn 3 just cripples Goblins, its pretty sick. I have seen them recover a few times, but its total lucksackery when my opponent rips 4 lands in a row off the top and Ringleaders into 3 goblins ... while I am stuck drawing shit cause I can't find one of my 7 Loams.

Since combo is ... basically sucking and I am all about winning I have decided to go back to playing Aggro Loam for the time being. Now I have a very fucked up looking build but I kid you not, it is incredibly effective against everything except combo and Dredge. Here is the list:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Shriekmaw
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Seismic Assault
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Devastating Dreams
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Burning Wish

1x Badlands
3x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Plateau
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Forgotten Cave
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Arid Mesa
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Life from the Loam
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Shattering Spree/Meltdown
1x Reverent Silence
1x Firespout
1x Chainer’s Edict
1x Regrowth
1x Raven’s Crime
2x Firespout
2x Choke
3x Krosan Grip

My goal is to totally cut off the reliance on the yard for anything except wastelock and Assault. So when the opponent brings in Leyline, you have no fear since you only have ... 3-4 dead cards depending on how you boarded. Kitchen Finks are a SAVAGE beating against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. Especially when you get Volrath's Stronghold active. StP is basically a requirement for me to play this deck. I used to run Chalice in those slots, then cut it because it was too often a dead card. Then I replaced it with Cabal Therapy which I would run again if I played Dark Confidant but since I didn't care much for that build, its out. I just thought, StP is rarely ever dead and helps the speed of the deck. You finally have an answer for Lackey and that fucking Nacatyl before they get in so much damage. Plus killing Merfolk's Lords at instant speed really sucks for them.

The problem is I REALLY want equipment in the deck but I don't know what to cut. For some unknown reason I really want to play Loxodon Warhammer. Most likely because of the fact that Crusher gets chump-blocked so easily and this ... well, it turns that off quick fast and in a hurry. It also makes the Finks able to trade with Goyf. I know how good Jitte is but, this has an immediate effect and allows you to comfortably swing into the opponent with immediate lifegain so you don't have to hold back blockers. This would make the creatures soo much better but I can't think of anything to cut. The closest card would be Seismic Assault and ... thats just stupid. It would lessen the deck's reliance on the yard a whole lot but how many matchups would it weaken?

And I know I should be running Knight but I'm not. My buddy who plays this loves it in there but will admit how often it goes farming and how you can easily fuck up your manabase playing the cute tricks that it allows. I want consistent and I don't want to mull because I have a Bojuka Bog and a cycle land in my opening hand or something like that. Don't get me wrong, I like Knight but don't think he is that necessary in my metagame. I feel Finks are strictly better the way things are now, especially with Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk being out in mass.

[Dark Ritual]

A few comments on your RGw build Pulp.

Maybe cut 1 finks for 1 terravore? Terravore is amazing against NH and is a solid beater with evasion lategame especially with devastating dreams. The way I see DD in aggro loam is that if you resolve it with a land based creature on the board like vore or crusher it is essentially GG's most of the time since it pumps crusher and terravore to insane proportions. On equipment in aggro loam.

On the wishboard. Maybe play nostalgic dreams in place of regrowth since it can get multiple cards back instead of just one. Another note on recursion of spells other than creatures. Maybe play a 1 of eternal witness MD to get back cards like DD, seismic assault, EE, a countered burning wish, or postboard options like k grip or wish targets like firespout.

Overall I like your build though, despite it being RGw and my preferred build runs RGb colors. Its understandable that you don't like knight because he does skew your manabase and when you get tutor targets like bojuka bog in hand it can really mess up your gameplan.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yeah, my old builds used to run 3 Terravore and 1 Eternal Witness. I'm just trying our new combinations. I am pretty sure I would run Knight over Vore now, back in the original lists I almost always borded out 1-3 Terravore, depending on the matchup. And now that Relic has gained such populatiry, I just don't like Terravore. BUT, he has won me a lot of games, I have seen times where he was bigger than a 20/20, that was just sick. But he is either really dominant or a total liability. So for those reasons I am not playing him. Witness was always a cute trick, and with Stronghold .... jesus, things get ugly real fast. But with the meta being so aggressive, I think Shriekmaw helps so much I couldn't cut it.

In my limited testing online the Finks were just sick. Now sure if I want to go down to 3 cause I always want them early in the game, and even late game, they still stall like champs and survive DD (usually). I still want equipment but I am going to leave the build alone for now.

I used to run Nostalgic Dreams in my Eternal Garden wishboard but I just never liked it. It seemed I always had so few cards in my hand at any given time. GG also worries me a little, but if it resolves its always nasty. I can't see one being better than the other, it seems like its all preference.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I would like to start playing this deck some, maybe try to do a few win-a-box's with it. My only question is: Countryside Crusher or Terravore? I am more inclined to play the Crusher, as I feel it is a more consistent threat even when they bring in GY hate... what does everyone think? This is the list I'm planning on throwing together:

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness

Enchantments
3 Seismic Assault

Sorceries
4 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Mountain

Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Taiga
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Legendary Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Firespout

[luma]

Patrunkenphat7: I say that Crusher > Terravore, because it's resistant to graveyard hate, helps fill up your graveyard for Loam, and guarantees (almost) only business on your draw step.

Here's my 4c deck which I took to a 23 player local tournament yesterday. The result: games 10-0. I knew that the metagame would be no combo, lots of Zoo, Goblins, 'folk and other aggro decks. Actually, of those 23 players, five were playing Merfolk. Good thing I didn't take New Horizons. Here's the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Seismic Assault

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Barbarian Ring

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tariff
1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virtue's Ruin (this was supposed to be another Teeg, but I couldn't get it for the tournament)

First, some notes:
- The land toolbox seems nice on paper, but at least in this tournament, I didn't fetch anything but Wastelands and Fetchlands with KotR. I'll keep at least the Bojuka Bog, not sure yet about Steppe and Ring. Steppe's nice against removal or getting a huge Crusher through blockers, but most of the time, the Knight gets removed before it's active.
- Five cycling lands was a bit too few, I want to go back to at least six.
- Seismic Assault > Merfolk (--Cpt. Obvious)
- The manabase was great, only once I missed RRR for Assault
- The sideboard is geared against aggro, dredge and legendary fatties. The tournament had no Flying Spaghetti Monsters running around, so Karakas didn't see play.

Here's how the tournament went:
R1, Pro-Bant
I start G1 with a turn 1 Chalice. I keep opposing creatures in check with Pulses, and finish the game with Assault.
SB: -2 Assault -1 Loam -1 EE; +2 Tariff +1 Teeg +1 Virtue's Ruin
I don't draw a Mox for G2, but land a Teeg on turn 2. He swords my Tarmogoyf, but gets stuck on two lands after I waste him twice. My creatures run over him soon. After the game, he reveals that he didn't see any FoWs or Orders, so that's why my Teeg was allowed to live.
1-0 (2-0)

R2, Eva Green
The player was a local guy who borrowed the deck and isn't really known for his playing skills.
SB: -3 EE;+2 Tariff +1 Grip
2-0 (4-0)

R3, Zoo
He starts the game with T1 Nacatl, T2 Goyf. I have a T2 Chalice and T3 Goyf, but it's only 2/3 against a 3/3 Nacatl. I add a Confidant and he trades his Goyf with it. Now the board is Chalice and Goyf at 9 life against a lone Nacatl at 18 life. I play a Chalice @ 2, since I know I'm playing more 3-drops than he and I'm afraid of PoP (which he wasn't playing after all). Also, he can't kill me with double Fireblast, so I'm not in a hurry to win. We play 4 rounds of Draw-Go with our aggro decks, until I find a KotR and he concedes.
SB: -4 Confidant; +4 Firespout
Again, I have a T1 Chalice. He only Bolts me in response. I have a hand full of removal: Pulse his Goyf, Pulse his Library, EE another Library. I land a Knight, and only need three combats.
3-0 (6-0)

R4, Merfolk
I win the dieroll for the first time! I don't really remember how the game started, but I resolve an Assault on T3 and draw a Loam the next turn. His fish get grilled when the earth arms itself with fire.
SB: -4 Chalice, +4 Firespout
I get a T1 Confidant while he opens with double Vial. I land a Goyf and a Knight, but he has a Crypt. I make him use it by blocking a 3/2 Adept, and refill my graveyard with the Knight. I bait a counter with Assault, so I'm free to Pulse his Vials, keep the way clear with double Firespout and go to town with KotR.
4-0 (8-0)

R5, BW Aggro
We both start with a land-go, then he Tidehollow Scullers my hand of Goyf, Bob, Loam, Knight, Crusher, Land. He takes the Loam, but I draw another one and cast the Bob. I cast a couple of big guys, and his 2/2s are no match to them.
SB: -3 EE; +3 Firespout
This time he starts by Thoughtseizing me, taking my T1 Chalice away. I discard a Loam and a Wasteland to his Gerrard's Verdict, then dredge the Loam to fill my hand with lands. In his next end step, I make a mistake by fetching when I have a Thicket in hand, Loam in graveyard and no other untapped lands. Of course, he has a Faerie Macabre to exile my Loam. If I had realized that he can sideboard those things, I should have waited until my upkeep to fetch. Anyway, his guys are still small and my guys are still big. GG.
5-0 (10-0)

First place, for 2 RV Volcanic Islands and 4 packs of my choice. I can't find a Jace in 4 WWK, but at least I crack a foil Avenger of Zendikar.

[sdematt]

So, I ended up playing Aggro-Loam in a 16 player tournament, and I almost placed 1st, but ended up placing 3rd.


Loam takes 3rd at local Legacy

So, I played this list:

Aggro-Loam

Main

1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

4 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness

4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terminate
3 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

Board:
3 Firespout
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Devastating Dreams

--------------------------------------

Round 1: Nixon with Counter-Top Thopter

Game 1: I pull a good hand of Mox Diamonds, Loam, Confidant and Crusher. I promptly lay out Confidant, land it, and get Crusher online. I lay some Goyfs, but he has Counterbalance. He manages to get Jace, but I crush it with Crusher. He fears my Pulses I bluff I have in my hand. He plays Moat, which I use Crusher and Confidant to get to. I grab it, destroy Moat, and get there.

Out: Crap
In: 4 Krosan Grip

Game 2: I have a slower start, and use Pulse to nuke Crucible. I don't have a ton of pressure onboard, but I start Loaming. Eventually, I get Assault online, but he needles, and I have no removal as of yet. I draw another Pulse, and a Grip off Confidant. I bait using Pulse, he reveals a 3-drop. Ouch. I Grip his Counterbalance on the draw step (as his 3 drop was crap), and he proceeds to Extirpate my Grips. Damn. He locks up the board with Moat, Humility, and finally, Back to Basics when I'm tapped out. That's cool.

He doesn't draw his other Jaces, and we go to time. He let me take the 2-0 win.

Games: 2-0
Matches: 1-0

Round 2: Jason with UBR Dreadstill

Jason's an excellent Dreadstill player, and last week we tied for first. Hooray!

Game 1: I manage to preemptively lay an EE at 1, and proceed to Waste his Mishra's factories and trade Goyf for Bob. He gets CB online, but I land Crusher. Crusher reveals 10 lands off the top on his second reveal, and swings in for the win. Go Crusher!

In: Krosan Grip, REB
Out: Crap

Game 2: I bait his early Counterspells with Confidants and EE, but I then land Chalice at 1. He doesn't draw Hurkyll's Recall or Echoing Truth, and does make a few misplays. I get there with Goyf beats + Assault.

Games: 4-0
Rounds: 2-0

Round 3: James with Doomsday

Game 1: He Duresses me, taking away my Chalice, then combo's off next turn. Damnit.

In: Thorn of Amethyst.
Out: Removal

Game 2: I lay down a T1 Thorn, and then a Confidant. He can't combo off, I beat with a large Crusher.

Game 3: He boards in Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo, and kills me. His first turn: Leyline on T0, swamp, Chrome Mox, Imprint, Dark Ritual, Helm of Obedience. He passes turn, I lay Chalice at 0, and pass back. He combo's, I die. Frack.

Games: 5-2
Rounds: 2-1

Round 4: Alex with Zoo

Game 1: I crush him with Assault + Loam, nuking all his creatures, and then his face. Chalice at one wrecks him.

In: Firespout, Dreams.
Out: Junk.

Game 2: I keep a risky hand, and don't see a second land for 10 turns.

Game 3: A tense 25 minute game of back and forth. He grips my EE on 1, I nuke his Goyf with Pulse. It goes back and forth, and I'm on two life. I play out a Terravore at 11/11, and then a Crusher. He tries to get a burn spell, but he can't. He Path to Exiles a Goyf, but doesn't get there. I extend my hand and nuke his face.

Rounds: 3-1
Games: 7-3
-------------------------


All in all, I feel he deck was very good, except it lacks enough permanent removal to keep up with CounterTop Thopter and its ilk. i really felt like if they landed Moat, it was tough going. Grip out of the board helped.

The 1-of Dreams was never seen, as with the Eternal Witness. I figured Witness is good to get back Loamed removal/EE. Dreams seems good against Zoo, but doesn't seem good against anything Blue.

Props: Countryside Crusher. This dude is amazing. He filters your deck, and makes himself bigger. Assault and Crusher are awesome.

Slops: Removal suite is a tad weak, but I'm used to playing the Rock, so it could just be my being partial to 4 Vindicate in a deck.


Hope you liked to read it! Sorry if I wasn't clear on sideboarding, but I honestly don't remember the exact numbers and such.

-Matt

[Patrunkenphat7]

When playing against Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, and Zoo, is it always a good idea to board out 4 Confidants for 4 Firespouts?

[Aggro_zombies]

When playing against Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, and Zoo, is it always a good idea to board out 4 Confidants for 4 Firespouts?
No.

Bob is bad against Zoo because he's fragile and causes life loss, but he's a good blocker against Goblins and Elves and a much-needed source of card advantage against Merfolk.

[blue_mage]

Played my loam deck in a legacy open. There were 96 players.

I was 4 - 1 after 5 rounds but my luck run out on the 6th and 7th round. ended 25th place with a 4 - 3 standing.

need help in changing the deck. suggestions will be much appreciated.

what should i cut I'm thinking in adding 2 pcs of maelstrom pulse in the MD. or should i add solitary confinement?

is kitchen finks good enough for a MD slot? should i cut dark confidants?

many thanks!

my matches

white stax w/ baneslayer (win)
survival (win)
belcher (win)
mono red (loss)
BGW rock (win)
affinity (loss)
mono black painter/dark depth (loss)

Note:
my losses were all 1 - 2. I could have won given good hands. My wins were all 2 - 0.

I haven't won a game against mono red in a tourney! what should be change with my list? what I figure the deck lacks spot removal? or should I add gain life cards?

I added another siesmic assault since during playtest a fast combo really helps a lot!

Deck
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Eternal Witness
2 Dark confidants
4 tarmogoyf

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments
3 Seismic Assault

Spells
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Devastating Dreams

Lands
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 windswept heath
3 Forgotten cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bayou
1 sejiri steppe

Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
1 shattering spree
1 reverent silence
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
2 gaddock teeg
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 firespout
1 glacial chasm ( bad for this deck)
__________________
Legacy: Eva green, BGw rock, GWb Progen rock, Naya Zoo, 4 color Aggro loam
Extended: Landfall zoo
Standard: Naya Vengevine

[Aggro_zombies]

Seismic Assault in a four-color deck is very greedy. I would recommend starting by removing them.

Burning Wish is generally pretty terrible unless you're using it to find Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. You should probably cut them as well.

Dreams is terrible both as a sweeper and as a mass-LD effect. Combining the two does not make the card any better because you have to discard at least three cards against most decks; this means you have an extremely high risk of taking yourself out of the game if the opponent is blue, or sandbagging lands, or has Tarmogoyfs and Knights.

I think this deck did a lot correctly: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34744

I probably would have started the Firespouts over 2 Assault, 1 Terravore, but whatever.

[Patrunkenphat7]

No.

Bob is bad against Zoo because he's fragile and causes life loss, but he's a good blocker against Goblins and Elves and a much-needed source of card advantage against Merfolk.

I have been boarding in the Firespouts for Chalices against Merfolk, but what about Goblins and Elves?? What would you board out instead? It seems like Bob would be the first thing to come out in those matchups. Not to mention the Firespouts sweep Bob anyways.

[Careve]

Guys, did you test Burnwillow&punishingFire duo in this deck?
I just added it into my deck for testings and so far they seem to fit very nicely. It gives you a very strong weapon against all aggro decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Guys, did you test Burnwillow&punishingFire duo in this deck?
I just added it into my deck for testings and so far they seem to fit very nicely. It gives you a very strong weapon against all aggro decks.
Seismic Assault does exactly the same thing for far less mana.

[Careve]

Well, I do play 2-3 assaults already, but I don't feel that they are enough, sometimes they come in a bit too late or you simply have no fuel for it.

[Antonius]

anyone play straight RG builds?
A couple buddies of mine were developing an RG build with 4x Terravore, 4x Crusher and 4x Assault. I thought it was pretty sick, if only because of the color consistency, the sheer strength of basics and the threat density. I think they ran 2 or 3 libraries to serve as the CA/CS engine in place of Bob and had 4 ee for removal.

Also: since Pulp mentioned equipment, has anyone experimented with Stoneforge Mystic? It's a totally random thought, but it could work and it could be sick. After all, active Jitte can generate as much CA as a bob.

[Careve]

What do they play against combo decks? Just Chalices?

[Antonius]

What do they play against combo decks? Just Chalices?

ya, they play chalice main and hope to slow them down enough to race, just like any other 3+ color build.

[Antonius]

anyone still actually play this deck?

Anyone experimented running Straight Rg with Koth and Moons?

[Dark Ritual]

If you were to do that why not just build dragon stompy? Because that's what it is likely to turn out to look like in the end. I play this deck personally over 43 lands 1 because I don't have tabernacles and 2 you can usually finish the round on time and losing game 1 doesn't make the entire match a draw or loss because of 43lands lack of a clock.

If you really want to beat combo with aggro loam, I suggest running 4 mind break trap and 4 pyroblast/REB's in the board alongside the usual chalices of course. Even that configuration may not be enough to consistently beat combo. Loam decks are traditionally very bad against combo decks due to lack of hard counters. Also zuran orb helps against combo somewhat; if you make a land drop each turn it requires them to up the storm count +1 each turn.

[Antonius]

here's a new build, with some (possibly) new tech, for this dormant thread to munch on:

4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Mountain
1 Forest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave

4 Goofy
4 Bobby
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Countryside Crusher

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice
3 Seismic

4 Loam

Yeah, on paper Cobra doesn't look that impressive...but the mana it produces causes unreal tempo gain.

It's like the ultimate partner to Dark Confidant--while bobby draws extra cards, Cobra lets you play 2-3 extra cards a turn, depending on your fetchland situation. A turn 1 Cobra can easily lead to a turn 2 seismic + Loam, or any combination of double-bob/double-goyf, or Crusher + double cycle... all number of utterly ridiculous shenanigans. In multiples...well, shit, you just combo out, using a single fetch to power out 2+ loams with the cycling costs to recur them and draw piss loads of cards.

[Dark Ritual]

I hate lotus cobra in aggro loam. Why? You just cut a crusher (one of the best cards in the deck), terravores are completely absent, and 2 you run 7 fetches to utilize the cobra. I would cut a taiga for another fetch probably a bloodstained mire. And it isn't really the ultimate partner to dark confidant crusher holds that right in this deck because you can almost guarantee a business card being revealed to bob sans mox diamond if you resolve crusher's trigger first then bob's second. And lategame would you want to topdeck a lotus cobra I dno't think so. Also missing from your list is maelstrom pulse, a card that greatly benefits this deck in so many ways because it answers almost everything from manabond to counterbalance.

[cuthbertthecat]

I'm curious as to why this deck sees less play. Whenever I play it, it just seems to roll over anything that runs creatures, which is a good amount of the field. The deck also isn't hard to play by any means. Do people feel it is just too clunky or not explosive enough?

[allek]

I'm curious as to why this deck sees less play. Whenever I play it, it just seems to roll over anything that runs creatures, which is a good amount of the field. The deck also isn't hard to play by any means. Do people feel it is just too clunky or not explosive enough?

Hi all!
I'm picking up this deck and will play it in a weekly tournament where I live tomorrow.
I played it with some success early 2009, winning a 40+ person tournament, with the classic Burning Wish-build.
Earlier this year and at GP Madrid, pre-MT-ban, i played Reanimator and recently Merfolks. I'm switching back now for two reasons. 1) It's my favourite deck and 2), I think it has a good matchup against a meta with Survival and controldecks, both which are abundant where I live.

I'll play Pat McGregors list with two minor modifications, 6-7 cycling lands instead of 8 and -2 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Krosan Grip.
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Firespout, 3 Zuran Orb, 2 Krosan Grip, 2 yet undecided, possibly 1 Engineered Explosives and 1 Worm Harvest.

[Antonius]

I'm curious as to why this deck sees less play. Whenever I play it, it just seems to roll over anything that runs creatures, which is a good amount of the field. The deck also isn't hard to play by any means. Do people feel it is just too clunky or not explosive enough?

The problem with this deck, at least in my experience, has been inconsistency. Any hand that doesn't open with Mox diamond will be behind the opponent by 1 turn in development for pretty much the entire game.

[mrorange]

I played the following in DE 1711692. I went 1-2. Any advice on deck, sb, or play is appreciated.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Shriekmaw

Other spells
4 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (27)
3 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Choke
1 Firespout
1 Shriekmaw
3 Zuran Orb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Worm Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Round 1 on the draw against Helmline and Dark Depths
Game 1 opening hand: Crusher, Diamond, EE, 2x 'goyf, 2x Foothills,
Opponent plays turn 1 Trinisphere off of Anceint Tomb and Mox Diamond. Turn 2 he gets Leyline Down off of a second land.
Turn 5 he plays Nether Void. I haven't seen another land and it is pretty much over here.
Sideboarding, OUT: Terravore, Shriekmaw, CotV. IN: Grip, Pulse, Deed
I'm hoping to hit his enchantments and artifacts. Terravore seems bad when he has maindeck Leyline. Shriekmaw is bad against black, and I only saw Thoughtseize to make me want to keep any CotV in. I would have taken more out if I thought I had more relevant cards.
Game 2 hand: Confidant, 'goyf, 2x Assault, Diamond, foothills and forgotten cave. He has an opening Leyline of the Void.
Turn 1 I play Confidant. He plays Mox Diamond. No land drop.
Turn 2 I cast Pernicious Deed. I break Deed Turn three to kill both our diamonds. The game basically ends on his turn five, at this point he had no permaments in play. He casts double Mox Diamond, plays Dark Depths, plays Hexmage. Maybe I should put some Diabolic Edicts in my SB?
0-1.

Round 2. From the replays it wasn't totally clear what my opponent was playing because he got stomped, but I did see Preordain, maybe I should have thought ANT?
On the play with Crusher, Confidant, EE, Diamond, Forest Badlands, Cave.
Well, I lose to Tendrils on his first turn.
Sideboarding, IN: Choke, Grip, 1 Zuran Orb. I iddn't take adequate notes here.
Game 2 Hand: Chalice of the Void, Eternal Witness, Loam, and 4 lands.
Turn 1 CotV for zero. He duresses me, taking Loam, which I just don't think was a great idea. I dredged it into Wasteland and Loam + Wasteland locked him out of game 2. Choke was nice because one turn I effecitvely wasted and underground sea that he tapped and was able to get more lands out.
Game 3 hand: CotV, Choke, Confidant, Pulse, 2 Diamond, Volrath's Stronghold.
I'm not sure if this was right, but I kept because CotV is too good to pass up as it feels like the only good card in this mu.
Turn 1 he plays Gemstone Mine and passes. A duress here would have been rough. I luck into a Wasteland, play CotV for zero and Confidant. He scoops.
1-1

Round 3. He is playing Armaggedon Stax. In retrospect I think my strategy should have been to mull to a creature or nice loam start.
Game 1 hand: CotV, EE, Assault, Diamond, 2 Mountains, and a cave.
I shoud have mulled this. I don't think Assault is the card you want against Stax.
Turn 1 I play Diamond and CotV for zero. This was just a bad play. It shuts off any attempt I want to make to play EE for zero, unless I draw into Waste or Stronghold. It was a silly keep and play…
Turn 3 he plays CotV for 2. I had 2 EE in hand. I might have had a chance if I hadn't played CotV for 0.
He casts Exalted Angel. I should have ignored the angel, Pulsed his CotV and started casting Life from the Loam and drew into other answers. I had two cycling lands at this point. But I pulsed the angel. He eventually wins after a Ravages of War and Magus beats.
Sideboarding, OUT: 4x CotV, 3x Assault - I can't pitch lands when he can hammer my lands in play. IN: Pulse, Grip, Deed, Shriekmaw, 3x Leyline
Game 2 hand: Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Diamond, Wasteland, Stronghold, 2x Foothills.
Turn 1 Confidant, ready for turn 2 waste + loam. He plays Flagstones so I play Bloodstained Mire and Tarmogoyf.
Turn 2 he casts Crucbile off of Ancient Tomb.
Turn 3 I draw into Loam (I've been getting a lot of gas off Bob) and Waste his tomb. I basically have the game now with a Tarmogoyf and Bob attacking, plus Wasteland recurision.
Game 3 hand: Tarmogoyf, Crusher, Wasteland, Thicket and three fetches. I keep because it has beats and lots of land.
Turn 1 He plays Horizon Canopy and I waste it. Was this the wrong play?
Turn 2 He plays Ancient Tomb. I play land.
Turn 4 He plays Smokestack off of Tomb and City of Traitors.
I draw a Wasteland and hit his Ancient Tomb.
Turn 5 he ramps stacks, plays an Ancient Tomb and a Crucible of Worlds.
Turn 6 I lose Taiga and concede. I probably should have tried to play this out to see I suppose who could get Mox Diamonds first? He would have probably beaten me with Flagstones of Trokair and CotV to sacrifice to Smokestack. Yeah, I should have played it out. Argh, maybe next time.
1-2 done.

[Koby]

Those are some pretty bad matchups you got. Aggro Loam doesn't really shine against Stax type decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with this deck, at least in my experience, has been inconsistency. Any hand that doesn't open with Mox diamond will be behind the opponent by 1 turn in development for pretty much the entire game.
This. Aggro Loam also has bad matchups against tempo decks, board control or prison decks, and Counterbalance decks. Since these matchups combined are quite common, and they all require different solutions, the deck doesn't do very well.

It doesn't help that the deck is basically now competing with Stax for worst curve in the format. Not running crappy cards like Chalice helps, but not enough.

[Antonius]

i've experimented with this build:

4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Wickerbough Elder

2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout

I put in 1 drops for exactly the purpose that you outlined, Aggro_Zombies-- without some 1 drops, the deck's gameplan is severely compromised without Mox Diamond. Steppe Lynx is amazing with loam and its cool because it allows for an extremely aggressive turn 1 without mox diamond. Wild Nacatl or Noble Hierarch could work in that spot, too, but neither are as aggressive and neither live through firespout. Also, with Loam as an engine for hitting land drops, Hierarch's mana fixing seems a lot less relevant.

[Aggro_zombies]

i've experimented with this build:

4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Wickerbough Elder

2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout

I put in 1 drops for exactly the purpose that you outlined, Aggro_Zombies-- without some 1 drops, the deck's gameplan is severely compromised without Mox Diamond. Steppe Lynx is amazing with loam and its cool because it allows for an extremely aggressive turn 1 without mox diamond. Wild Nacatl or Noble Hierarch could work in that spot, too, but neither are as aggressive and neither live through firespout. Also, with Loam as an engine for hitting land drops, Hierarch's mana fixing seems a lot less relevant.
This is an interesting take on it. Converging on Big Zoo is not something I would have thought of. Speaking of which:

Elder seems poor here. Knight of the Reliquary is on-color for this build, is cheaper, and hits very hard with Loam. If you want a Disenchant effect, Qasali Pridemage is simply better since the cost is lower (three versus five to play and activate is a huge difference). Yeah, you have to lose Pridemage but get to keep Elder, but does it really make much difference when the other guy's Survival has had that much more time to do its thing?

Not sure on Swords. It's okay, but you're mostly winning combat anyway, so I'm not sure what it does for you that, say, Lightning Bolt wouldn't.

One issue about relying too much on Loam in the current format is that the concentration of graveyard hate has risen because of Vengevines. Library and Confidant are always good backup plans.

[hyggli]

maybe the deck would not be that explosive as it is with steppe lynxes, but did you think about running wild nacatl instead? I did try a build with it and kird and went quite good. the other cards I did play were vindicate and burning wish and did not run swords to plowshares

[allek]

Well, I sleeved up McGregors list and got my ass kicked.

1. Johan with Death and Taxes
Hard matchup, jitte and SOFI on flyers seal my fate both games. Chalice is pretty much worthless if he gets Vial early. Still kept all four post-board though to prevent him from using STP and PTE. His Flickerwisps owns moxen, crushers, explosives and chalices and when paired with SOFI, it goes downhill really fast. 0-2.

2. Martin with UBw Dreadstill
Excellent matchup, chalice stops him cold game one and he has to go Trinket Mage > EE @ 0 which gives me time to attack with Crusher + Goyf.
Next game is even better since I get a start wit mox and land a Goyf on the first turn and follow it up with a Crusher. Him not getting enough time to answer all my threats and at the same time develop his own game gets me there. 2-0.

3. Henrik with GW Vengevine
This match is all about the creatures, unfortunately Henrik has Mother of Runes wich can send his 8/8 knights past my defense and post-board, Gaddock Teeg prevents me from playing Engineered Explosives to help matters. 0-2.

4. Robin with Goblins.
Game 1 is highly unfavorable for me because my list lacks Firespouts or Devastating Dreams main. I get early beats but his lategame bests mine. Seismic Assault would have helped. Postboard (+4 Firespout) this match is much more pleasant, I keep 4 lands, 1 Mox , Loam + Seismic, unfortunately he has Extirpate for my Loam. I use cyclinglands to draw dudes and keep him off his mana with Wasteland. I keep my lands in my hand and play Crusher at 3 lands, seismic in play, from there I beat him to 4 life, using lands to kill his blockers. Then he draws Tin-street Hooligan and wrecks a mox and wastes one on my lands thus making my Crusher locking me out of the game long enough it takes him to get insane with Siege-gang + Kiki-Jiki. Oh, he also extirpated my Firespouts after I played the first.
Thoughts: the deck is a blast to play and many of the losses come from me picking up this deck without any prior playtesting. The Dreadstill match was really easy to win and the Survival Match is really quite winnable, a reasonable answer to his Mother of Runes would have let me in the game again. Goblins are hard but Firespouts really help, I shouldn't have played the Crusher but saw my chance to make him go all the way.
I will play the same deck next week and report back then, please write your opinions on some of these match.
One questions I've been thinking about if I should have mulled the last hand against goblins (loam + seismic + mana, nothing else) out of fear of GY-hate.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, I sleeved up McGregors list and got my ass kicked.
This is not surprising, since the deck is not very good anymore.


1. Johan with Death and Taxes
Hard matchup, jitte and SOFI on flyers seal my fate both games. Chalice is pretty much worthless if he gets Vial early. Still kept all four post-board though to prevent him from using STP and PTE. His Flickerwisps owns moxen, crushers, explosives and chalices and when paired with SOFI, it goes downhill really fast. 0-2.
Leaving Chalice in was almost certainly a mistake. Chalice is very bad against Vial decks and only mediocre against more of the field in general. Artifact removal would have been a better use of those slots post-board.


3. Henrik with GW Vengevine
This match is all about the creatures, unfortunately Henrik has Mother of Runes wich can send his 8/8 knights past my defense and post-board, Gaddock Teeg prevents me from playing Engineered Explosives to help matters. 0-2.
Firespout is generally quite good against these sorts of decks. Bolt is also quite good here, but McGregor's list doesn't play any, unfortunately.


4. Robin with Goblins.
Game 1 is highly unfavorable for me because my list lacks Firespouts or Devastating Dreams main. I get early beats but his lategame bests mine. Seismic Assault would have helped. Postboard (+4 Firespout) this match is much more pleasant, I keep 4 lands, 1 Mox , Loam + Seismic, unfortunately he has Extirpate for my Loam. I use cyclinglands to draw dudes and keep him off his mana with Wasteland. I keep my lands in my hand and play Crusher at 3 lands, seismic in play, from there I beat him to 4 life, using lands to kill his blockers. Then he draws Tin-street Hooligan and wrecks a mox and wastes one on my lands thus making my Crusher locking me out of the game long enough it takes him to get insane with Siege-gang + Kiki-Jiki. Oh, he also extirpated my Firespouts after I played the first.
Dreams is actually kind of bad against Goblins, or any other deck, for that matter. Crusher is also not very good anymore, for the reasons you discovered. Dark Confidant is a good backup to Loam, but like every other Loam deck, you don't really have a substitute to losing your namesake card. Sounds like your second game was a combination of bad beats and not having enough creatures.


Thoughts: the deck is a blast to play and many of the losses come from me picking up this deck without any prior playtesting. The Dreadstill match was really easy to win and the Survival Match is really quite winnable, a reasonable answer to his Mother of Runes would have let me in the game again. Goblins are hard but Firespouts really help, I shouldn't have played the Crusher but saw my chance to make him go all the way.
I will play the same deck next week and report back then, please write your opinions on some of these match.
One questions I've been thinking about if I should have mulled the last hand against goblins (loam + seismic + mana, nothing else) out of fear of GY-hate.
No to the mulligan. If he has it, he has it. If he doesn't, the hand was reasonable.

[Dark Ritual]

You can take McGregors list and subtract maelstrom pulse's for firespouts MD because both cost 3 and are removal. You could also take out 1 terravore and some other random card for 2 more firespouts to have a good aggro MU games 1-3 because DnT gets owned by firespout and so does goblins along with some of zoo's creatures dying to it.

Keeping in chalices against DnT is terrible along with against any other vial deck. Especially on the draw if they land turn 1 vial or if you don't have the turn 1 chalice for 1 it's just awful. I'd side out chalices for firespouts if you have zero spouts MD very fast if they swords your dudes you play a seismic assault and they still lose.

The reason aggro loam isn't good right now is once people adapt to survivine extirpate hits a lot of our cards as well especially loam and having all our crushers removed isn't exactly good either. And when you get your firespout's removed it's pretty much game unless you draw like a champion. Devastating dreams isn't that good anymore in general I'm never going to have it anywhere in my 75. The card is so conditional and while its cute to play against some opponent with crusher on the board and/or terravore to swing in for the win the deck doesn't need that.

[blue_mage]

anyone still actually play this deck?

I'm still playing this deck and I'm currently having success with it. Contrary to many I'm running 4c loam with devastating, seismic and burning wish.

In my own opinion if you are planning to build a loam deck you have to consider your own play style and meta. My build is a bit controlish but it can also win games easily given a strong start.

I've had experiences were I played 2nd turn terravore 3rd turn devastating and it felt good : )

[coraz86]

I'm still playing this deck and I'm currently having success with it. Contrary to many I'm running 4c loam with devastating, seismic and burning wish.

In my own opinion if you are planning to build a loam deck you have to consider your own play style and meta. My build is a bit controlish but it can also win games easily given a strong start.

Is your fourth color white for additional control like Vindicate and StP or blue for library manipulation? I've had fun working with Gifts Ungiven packages (and Academy Ruins can be hilarious in the deck), but never had the balls to take it to any semblance of a tournament. Also, Knight of the Reliquary is insane in this deck, to my mind better than Crusher.

[Dark Ritual]

Knight of the reliquary is good no doubt about it but he is NOT better than crusher. Crusher is so synergystic with the rest of the deck it isn't even funny not to mention when he see's humility he laughs and rumbles on anyway. With loam active he is a lot better than knight.

I don't like 4c builds because of the shaky manabase I play strictly RGB. Splashing blue for gifts ungiven seems interesting but more interesting to me is intuition because it's 3 mana v. 4 mana. Gifts is CA true but intuition can be CA in the right situation depending. Vindicate in 4 color builds seems like the same as maelstrom pulse; sure you can randomly pull that game out where you manascrew them but usually we can do that with wastelock anyways not to mention pulse is usually used on cards that affect the game state a lot more than lands. Only reason to splash white to me is StP and knight. But I'm content with RGB at the moment.

Aggro Zombies nothing personal but do you really dislike this deck or something? It seems like every post you rip on the deck and rant about how bad it is. We know it's a metadeck. We know it's slow. I still enjoy playing the deck and having those busted hands with turn 2 seismic and turn 1 loam. Or even turn 1 crusher I made that play in a tournament the other day and the guy just couldn't answer it lol :tongue:

[blue_mage]

Is your fourth color white for additional control like Vindicate and StP or blue for library manipulation? I've had fun working with Gifts Ungiven packages (and Academy Ruins can be hilarious in the deck), but never had the balls to take it to any semblance of a tournament. Also, Knight of the Reliquary is insane in this deck, to my mind better than Crusher.

White splash is for KotR. It has been awhile since a run crusher. I prefer Knight better because it can tutor any land you need given a certain situation, like wasteland maze of ith, karakas, tabernacle. It can also up your mana production in a turn if you want to have explosive starts. It can also fix your mana color.

I replaced crusher with terravores

But I'm open in playing RGb builds just have not found the list I like.

[Dark Ritual]

So you replaced the GY hate resistant card with a card that reads "I die to relic of progenitus activation." I see no reason to run terravore over countryside crusher at all especially when crusher helps you find business spells by cycling through almost every land in your deck except mox diamond. Sure it reveals the card you draw but when does that matter if you dredge loam or you play that card immediately when you're in topdeck mode so to speak.

Knight toolbox is cute but if you don't have knight what then or god forbid the opponent pithing needles the knight, a card seeing more play now that survi vine is the most popular deck. Temporary wastelock is good but maze of ith, tabernacle, karakas, all are very meh cards if you don't need them. The most useful is maze of ith and even then you're running it over a spell like maelstrom pulse because it taps for 0 mana.

[allek]

Alright, new week, new tournament. I think we were 14 people this time and I finished 4th after losing the final to incredibly bad beats, but that happens to everybody from time to time.

I'm playing McGregors list with -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Terravore, +3 Firespout

1 - Erik, Landstill
I win G1 quite easy with chalice and quick beats. My threats are later killed when he EEs my chalice but I have seismic.
In the next game he has everything he needs and locks me out of the game with Humilty and planeswalkers. I sccop early and hope to win the last game but alas, it's a draw. Observation: EE@4 would wreck this deck but I couldn't find a mox, is a singleton Volcanic Island an option for this matter?
0-0-1

2 - Per, GWB Survival
Bad beats for Per, I get the nuts both games while he's manascrewed. I also have grip for his Survival.
1-0-1

3 - Johan, Death and Taxes
This was a really hard game last week, the maindecked firespouts are here mostly for this and the goblin match. This week it's easier, I lose game 1 due to his incredibly annoying Mother of Runes prevents me from killing his team with Firespout which otherwise would have been great. He gets active SOFI and it's sccop. -4 Chalice, +4 Krosan. G2 I have early confidant that gives me enough card advantage to get me in the game. He tutors for Aura of Silence but I have the grip so my Seismic gets me there. G3 I one-for-one all his threats and get double confidant which of course gives me enough gas into seismic + loam.
2-0-1

4 - Viktor, Dredge.
Finals!
G1 he mulls to five and I have a fast hand with both mox, bob and loam. I get seismic and throw lands at him before he is able to get his Zombies online. G2 I'm in an excellent position to win, I mull to the following six: Leyline, Mountain, Badlands, Crusher, Loam, Leyline. Put leyline into play, and fail to draw a green mana source for 9 turns while he kills me with hardcasted imps. WFT!!!? Oh yeah, I drew three consecutive moxen. Argh.
Last game I keep a sixer without leyline but with bob, early beats, EE and firespout. We trade back and forth, I get seismic and swing with a 10/10 crushers, bringing him down to 10. He has nothing, but will get two ichorids next turn. His out is Iona but needs to dredge down a dread return to get it. Of course he does, thus preventing me from winning the next turn. Viktor wins the tournament. Bad beats G2, but that's how magic is sometimes.
2-1-1

Analysis: the deck is really strong in the meta right now since combo and zoo are on the decline. Survival is hard but winnable, blue decks and semi-slow aggro (DaT, rock etc) are quite favourable matchups. I don't think I'll change my deck til' next time.

[blue_mage]

In a 4C loam is it ok to add elspeth?

[Aggro_zombies]

In a 4C loam is it ok to add elspeth?
Why? The deck's curve is already terrible, so you want to make it worse by adding a four-drop that does...exactly what for you?

[blue_mage]

Why? The deck's curve is already terrible, so you want to make it worse by adding a four-drop that does...exactly what for you?

I was just thinking of squeezing an alternative win condition that is not graveyard dependent.

1.) it makes all creatures in loam decks fly. help's win faster
2.) it makes your confidant a threat
3.) helps win games against moat decks
4.) gives a constant threat

[(nameless one)]

Im trying to build a R/G budget version for a friend of mine.

I was if anyone was wondering a R/G version (doesnt have to be budget) of this deck. A little guide would really help.

I was also thinking of including Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows combo on the budget version.

[Waikiki]

I think that would be a possible addition in a pure RG version.

[Careve]

I play Grove&Fire duo in non-budget 3-4 color Loam version and they are awesome.

I remember trying to build R/G version, but it really lacked some disruption and wasn't faster than 3-4 color Loam.

[(nameless one)]

But was the manabase stable at least?

Also, on the non-budget version (I'm actually interested in building this deck too now), would Chalice of the Void shine?

I have also noticed that Devastating Dreams aren't used anymore. Why is that?

[Antonius]

But was the manabase stable at least?

Also, on the non-budget version (I'm actually interested in building this deck too now), would Chalice of the Void shine?

I have also noticed that Devastating Dreams aren't used anymore. Why is that?

Devastating is only devastating against non blue decks. I run it in my sideboard right now.

Punishing fires seems interesting, but Grim Lavamancer is strictly better, IMO. Guy is so damn good.

[Dark Ritual]

Chalice of the void is our only out against combo and against competent pilots it usually doesn't matter much unless you get a turn 1 chalice at 0 and at 1 turn 2 crusher to apply quick beats and then turn 4 cast loam. That's a god hand though.

In a budget RG version would you be running mox diamond? Whether you do or not equates to whether you run chalice of the void or not. If you don't run chalice, I imagine grim lavamancer is decent as a 1 drop.

Devastating dreams requires a full hand to be good. Most creatures dodge it if you discard 3 cards it's an okay firespout that pumps crusher and vore. And against blue, they FoW it or spell snare it and you cry.

EDIT: I meant to say earlier that chalice is our only out against combo. Against aggro it is often very bad especially if they go turn 2 qasali pridemage which has made CotV very weak since its printing.

[Aggro_zombies]

Dreams is pretty bad. There are better land destruction options and better sweeper options, and having both in one card doesn't make up for the Mind Twist. Plus, it's actually pretty slow unless you want to take yourself out of the game by blowing up all your own lands.

Zendikar fetches should be cheaper than Onslaught ones and should still enable you to build a three-color version. Depending on how much money you want to sink into the manabase, shocklands are reasonable substitutes for duals, but filter lands and M10 duals are also fine if you run more basics and Zen fetches. Ghost Quarter is a reasonable Wasteland substitute.

The following seems fine for just two colors:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
3 Firespout
4 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hull Breach
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Stomping Grounds
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Mountain

[Careve]

Punishing fires seems interesting, but Grim Lavamancer is strictly better, IMO. Guy is so damn good.

Lavamancer is a great guy, but it is a bit non-sense to call the card strictly better than punishing fire. Punishing fire does not eat your graveyard (and thus making your goyfs smaller), can do 4 damage and is much more resistant to opponent's disruption.

In my opinion, Grove&Fire duo is seriously underrated in Loam decks. I was sceptical about them too, but once I tested them in several tournaments, I changed my opinion about them completely.

[Antonius]

Lavamancer is a great guy, but it is a bit non-sense to call the card strictly better than punishing fire. Punishing fire does not eat your graveyard (and thus making your goyfs smaller), can do 4 damage and is much more resistant to opponent's disruption.

In my opinion, Grove&Fire duo is seriously underrated in Loam decks. I was sceptical about them too, but once I tested them in several tournaments, I changed my opinion about them completely.

you do realize that 80-90% of Tarmogoyf's size in this deck comes from your opponent's yard, right? I mean, this deck is almost all permanents, usually has no instants, and dredges a lot of land. I've had many, many games where Tarmogoyf has been stuck at 1/2 or 2/3 for five-six turns. Punishing fires is just so slow. In a deck that's already starved for speed, you want to put in another painfully slow combo? Punishing Fires doesn't even punish zoo really, since it costs you 5 mana to kill a Nacatl. Sure, Lavamancer's not too hot against zoo either, but at least it doesn't cost three mana to use once.

Now, where do these cards make a difference? Tribal matchups, of course. Merfolk, for example, just scoops it up to turn 1 lavamancer. Do they do the same to Punishing fires combo? No, you're going to tap out to try and hit LoA, then they're going to daze it. They'll waste you off of grove of the burnwillows then spell pierce it the next time you try and cast it, by then they'll have two LOA's or a LOA + Reejerey and you'll need 5 mana to kill any of their guys. They'll tempo the hell out of you, then beat you same way they beat conventional aggro loam lists -- by being 1-2 turns FASTER than you. And goblins will generally just kill you before you get multiple uses out of Punishing fires. Also, punishing fires doesn't stop turn 1 lackey, go.

On the flipside, what does Lavamancer get you? Merfolk generally can't beat turn 1 lavamancer. Its hard for them to beat turn 2 Lavamancer, too. Even on turn 3, he can torch their whole team. If you add in some other burn (lightning bolt) then they're really just not getting anywhere with you. He seriously pumps your win in that matchup by like 15-25%. He's just nuts. He's not as strong vs goblins, since they have like six ways to get rid of him, but he's still a huge thorn in their side, forces them to commit more forces to the board and if you have any other kind of back-up removal, then he can get it done himself.

Seriously, Punishing Fires is slow. If you want direct burn, just play good old Lightning Bolt. Maybe aggro loam players underestimate it or discount it because it's not an engine, and the rest of the deck is, but seriously, bolt is amazing. There are games against goblins, merfolk, etc where you just win because you have pocket, instant speed removal for R. You nip coralhelm in the bud, get those LoA's or reduce their goblin count so incinerator just misses Tarmogoyf. I've also straight up won games with bolt as reach. It's a sick card.

The real disadvantage to Lavamancer is that he bars you from playing Terravore or KotR, but IMO, going 3-color is much better than 4 and Crusher should be enough to get you there. Also, Lavamancer is pure synergy with Crusher, Loam, Seismic Assault...the whole deck is designed to put cards in your yard, and you know that a lot of those cards are going to be chaff that you're not going to get back. Turn extra loams, fetches, cyclers, etc into shocks.

@Dark Ritual: What? Are you insinuating that our aggro matchup is...bad? What? Since when? The premier aggro decks in the format are Vial decks. I would say that even with a conventional build that matchup is 50-50 (maybe 55-45 aggro loam's favor, preboard). And chalice doesn't help you there--if anything, Chalice is the least relevant card in your 75. You have to take it out for natures claim, needle or bolt.
The other aggro deck...what, Zoo? Really? I mean, yeah, Chalice is good and all, if you get it early, but the longer the game goes, the more value it loses because the more Lightnings slipped through and already hit your face. Otherwise, the best cards you have are the cards that dominate their board. Have you forgotten that all our dudes, except confidant, are bigger than theirs? Just play goyf and crusher then fetch. Terravore is a boss. Seismic assault and Loam wipes their board. They play such a concentration of 1 and 2 drops that EE can wipe their board. Sure, sometimes their opening hand is good and they continue to rip the nuts down the stretch, but the balance is going to be in our favor.

On Devastating--
Yeah, it has weaknesses against blue, but it rapes all other decks. If anything, it was amazing in the meta game we just came out of, and it was the real reason why I picked up aggro loam (and why a lot of other people did, too, IMO). Devastating Dreams raped vengevine decks. It crushes both their lands and their mana dorks. Any time from turns 2-4, where they're ramping, they just can't recover from that kind of tempo loss.

Now, yeah, the meta is changing but Devastating dreams is still devastating reality against any deck that can't counter it and against any board state that doesn't have a KotR or a Terravore on their side. We were just talking about the Zoo matchup--devastating dreams rapes zoo. As i said earlier, KotR is their only out.

This was my most recent list, btw:

Main Deck
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
qty: 60

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Krosan Grip
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
qty: 15

I played this at the last big tournament pre-survival bannings. With the meta changing, I'm probably going to take MD claim out for either 2 Needle or 2 Maelstrom Pulse. Then I drop the 3 needles in my board for 2 Pyroblast and another Grip. 6 pieces of CBtop hate + duress/inquisition in the 75 should be enough to keep the blue decks off their game. Extirpate is still really good and Nihil spellbomb has just been sick.

[Hanni]

Loam + Seismic Assault > Grove + Punishing Fire

[(nameless one)]

Outside of having legs, how valuable is Bob over Sylvan Library? Is the black splash worth? Maybe I still don't quite understand the deck. I guess the OP needs to be updated.

[Aggro_zombies]

Outside of having legs, how valuable is Bob over Sylvan Library? Is the black splash worth? Maybe I still don't quite understand the deck. I guess the OP needs to be updated.
I haven't played this deck in ages and wouldn't recommend it to anyone as it doesn't really beat anything right now. But I can update it if you give me a list of things you want to see.

Black gives you access to more versatile removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate), Volrath's Stronghold, and Dark Confidant. Sylvan Library works better if you are going all-in on a dredge plan, but Bob is better at being a raw card drawing engine. Obviously, if you're not in black, you want a redundant source of card draw since Loam is slow and vulnerable, and Sylvan Library is in one of the colors you are definitely playing.

The deck is basically a classic midrange deck. It doesn't do any one thing particularly well but is flexible enough to get the job done most of the time. Black increases your flexibility by giving you real targeted removal and better recursion, but if you're on a tight budget it's probably fine to skip it.

[Nidd]

Splashing Black also gives you the opportunity to play more diverse GY Hate (Crypt/Spellbomb split) and opens up the possibility of playing Leyine.

And it gives you a third color for EE, not to mention you can play Maelstrom Pulse.

[Careve]

you do realize that 80-90% of Tarmogoyf's size in this deck comes from your opponent's yard, right? I mean, this deck is almost all permanents, usually has no instants, and dredges a lot of land. I've had many, many games where Tarmogoyf has been stuck at 1/2 or 2/3 for five-six turns. Punishing fires is just so slow. In a deck that's already starved for speed, you want to put in another painfully slow combo? Punishing Fires doesn't even punish zoo really, since it costs you 5 mana to kill a Nacatl. Sure, Lavamancer's not too hot against zoo either, but at least it doesn't cost three mana to use once.

Now, where do these cards make a difference? ...

Well, once again, I don't say PunFire is strictly better than Lavamancer, I just commented on your saying that Lavamancer is strictly better than Punfire which is not true to me (according to my experience). I'm not going to argue over this as we both have based our views on our experience.

Perhaps it's worth to notice that currently I play non-mox loam version which actually looks more like Zoo Loam.

[lorddotm]

G/W/R by Sylvain Lauriol

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Scroll Rack

Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants
3 Punishing Fire

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
2 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Taiga
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Morningtide
1 Shattering Spree


This is a list recommended by our dear World Champion. He claims to play a bit of Legacy in France, I don't know if anyone can testify to this, but the list sure looks interesting, although I'm sure Antonius will hate it.

[blue_mage]

G/W/R by Sylvain Lauriol

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Scroll Rack

Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants
3 Punishing Fire

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Life from the Loam
2 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Taiga
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Morningtide
1 Shattering Spree


This is a list recommended by our dear World Champion. He claims to play a bit of Legacy in France, I don't know if anyone can testify to this, but the list sure looks interesting, although I'm sure Antonius will hate it.


interesting list! Hopefully somebody tries it out.

just one thing i notice, is scroll rack enough card draw?

[Aggro_zombies]

interesting list! Hopefully somebody tries it out.

just one thing i notice, is scroll rack enough card draw?
He has cycling lands as well. Scroll Rack is quite good with an active Loam or Countryside Crusher, but since he doesn't run Crusher, one Rack is probably correct.

[ivanpei]

Anyone tried a list without red? I know it's not "Aggro Loam" without crusher or seismic assault, but both those cards have let me down recently. Seismic assault has been underwhelming for ages now, as everyone has noticed. Crusher is still fantastic, provided he lives a turn. However being in bolt range the turn he comes down (assuming you dont have any cycle lands etc), is kind of a turn off. He doesn't clog the ground up when he lands, which is not a big + against zoo and folk. I'm playing a GWB list now:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Religuary
3 Terravore

4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
4 Life from the loam
4 Mox Diamond

1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Savanna
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
4 Heath
3 Verdant
4 Wasteland

You still maintain a high density of bigs with terravore (unchumpable, lovely) and KOTR (superman on a stick), while black and white give you STP and Thoughtseize. Vindicate has been amazing here, doing so many things. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

So, it's literally Dark Horizons. Not this ambiguous name given to Rock by SCG, but literally New Horizons minus blue, and more land interactions.

I really like this, and I've tried something similar with Rock but with a less Loam-y feel. The thing about Seismic Assault and Crusher is that they're VERY good in this deck. True that 2 damage off of Assault isn't exemplary, but when you're going 6-10 damage a turn with it, you're either clearing the board or burning face. Once Loam is active with Assault, you have a machine gun against creatures. Even Merfolk can be relentlessly gunned down (usually over 2 Turns, one turn to take out their Lords, next turn to clean up), and Zoo dies horribly.

Crusher is in bolt range, but so are so many other creatures. Confidant, small Goyfs, Terravore (early on), etc. The only thing is Crusher doesn't die to Gravehate as much, and gets chumped like KotR does. Not sure if you could run a combination of Red and White.

Losing Chalice hurts because it's your main defense against 1-drops from Zoo, Combo, etc. Even though you gain Swords and Thoughtseize, you lose an edge against opposing removal and continuous streams of 1-drops from other decks.

Not sure which direction is right, but just trying to weigh the pros and cons of each side.

-Matt

[ivanpei]

Dark Horizons is similar, but I don't think it fully capitalizes on the moxes and the loam-interactions. It's leaning more towards a more discard heavy approach. Aggro loam seems to be underplayed right now. How is it's position in the current meta? I'm not really an active aggro loam player. I have the cards and sling them from time to time, but I'd like to hear from someone who is very familiar with this deck.

[sdematt]

I'm saying this literally would be Dark Horizons: because of the colour combo and the use of Terravore. It's be like New Horizons, minus blue add black :)

I play Aggro Loam quite often, but stopped playing it when Survival came around. We weren't quick enough. But, with Tribal coming back, I think Aggro Loam is in a good position. With access to Firespouts, discard, Plagues, and all the other fun stuff, we should be well positioned. I'm no expert on this deck though, someone else have something to say?

-Matt

[blue_mage]

I'm saying this literally would be Dark Horizons: because of the colour combo and the use of Terravore. It's be like New Horizons, minus blue add black :)

I play Aggro Loam quite often, but stopped playing it when Survival came around. We weren't quick enough. But, with Tribal coming back, I think Aggro Loam is in a good position. With access to Firespouts, discard, Plagues, and all the other fun stuff, we should be well positioned. I'm no expert on this deck though, someone else have something to say?

-Matt

I just played in a 70+ players tourney. had atleast a 4-2-1 standing. I think aggro loam will be in a good position with a right meta and with a lot of playtest! :)

Most of top 8 players were composed of combo players I was expecting lots of aggro decks but lost to merfolks, and TEPS!


By the way I'm looking for a list I'm interested in testing.

[Aggro_zombies]

I really like this, and I've tried something similar with Rock but with a less Loam-y feel. The thing about Seismic Assault and Crusher is that they're VERY good in this deck. True that 2 damage off of Assault isn't exemplary, but when you're going 6-10 damage a turn with it, you're either clearing the board or burning face. Once Loam is active with Assault, you have a machine gun against creatures. Even Merfolk can be relentlessly gunned down (usually over 2 Turns, one turn to take out their Lords, next turn to clean up), and Zoo dies horribly.

Crusher is in bolt range, but so are so many other creatures. Confidant, small Goyfs, Terravore (early on), etc. The only thing is Crusher doesn't die to Gravehate as much, and gets chumped like KotR does. Not sure if you could run a combination of Red and White.

Losing Chalice hurts because it's your main defense against 1-drops from Zoo, Combo, etc. Even though you gain Swords and Thoughtseize, you lose an edge against opposing removal and continuous streams of 1-drops from other decks.

Not sure which direction is right, but just trying to weigh the pros and cons of each side.

-Matt
Assault is not really good in this deck. It's a weak card that imposes severe mana restrictions and is strictly a late-game card in a deck already full of them. Furthermore, it increases your dependency on Life from the Loam, which makes the deck easier to hate. You'd be better off running Valakut.

The biggest issue with losing red is losing access to Firespout. In a format as aggro as this one, where three of the best decks are Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo, not having access to a sweeper is likely to be crippling. This deck is already too clunky to beat Merfolk reliably, and cards like Chalice don't help against aggro decks.

[kusumoto]

Valakut is in no way shape or form better then Assault. Assault wins games very easily and crushes tribal decks. Red is an important part of Aggro Loam. If you want to talk about some deck like Dark horizons, do it in that thread. Aggro Loam uses red.

Also, Chalice at one shuts off all of zoos removal and a third to half of their creatures. Merfolk is a tough match for sure though.

[Aggro_zombies]

Zoo maindecks Pridemage and will have access to further artifact/enchantment removal in the sideboard.

If when you say, "crushes tribal," you mean, "is several turns behind tribal's best draws and is a turn behind its average draw," then yes, Assault crushes tribal. In reality, triple red is a real issue against land denial from Goblins, Merfolk can largely ignore or delay Assault, and losing Life from the Loam makes Assault a joke. I would rather have Firespout.

Really, this deck is bad enough now that treating cards like Assault and Chalice as sacred, uncuttable cows seems like a bad idea. If you don't open Mox Diamond, you're basically doubling your chances of losing against any deck faster than you are (i.e., most of them). You don't beat combo, you rarely beat one of the most popular tribal decks, you kind of beat some of the Counterbalance decks, and there are better, more well-rounded decks with which to slay Zoo. This deck really needs to be re-evaluated in the sort of way ivanpei was willing to do. Aggro Loam isn't "a deck that uses red," it's a midrange deck built on synergies and redundancy that happens to use Life from the Loam. If swapping red for black while maintaining the deck's core strategy makes it better, then that's a good thing. Arguing about names doesn't make current builds of the deck any less Tier 2.5.

[Antonius]

all you guys with doubts about this archetype need to just play my build. Been crushing it, four or five tournaments in a row in Socal, where the Metagame is positively festering with Merfolks and Vial aggro decks. Lightning Bolt and Lavamancer.

[Philipp2293]

Antonius, is your build from the last page still your actual build?

[Antonius]

just switch nature's claim for the needle main then the 3 needle in board for 2 Pyroblast and a Grip and that's my current build.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I just went 4-0-1 (out of 25ish people) in my local tournament with Aggro Loam. It has been a while since I have played this deck but I feel it is greatly primed for the current metagame. The list is VERY solid against a large portion of the field and beats basically anything that isn't combo or Dredge, just like the classic lists did in their prime. Here is the list followed by a very short report of what happened:

4x Burning Wish
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Crusher
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Loam
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Grim Lavamancer (MVP ALL DAY LONG)
2x Seismic Assault (still the second best card in the deck)
2x Jitte
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Basilisk Collar

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
3x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Sideboard

3x Krosan Grip
2x Firespout
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Kitchen Finks

Wish Targets

1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Loam
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Regrowth
1x Wing Snare (don't laugh ... it won me a game and is the nuts VS Reanimator forcing them to call white w Iona since StP is in the main)

Round 1 - BYE - FAIL!!!! I was wanting to play this deck so bad and I get a damn bye ... wtf

Round 2 - Mono W Aggro w Equipments
g1 - He gets land screwed and I smash him in the face.
g2 - I keep a hand with all 2 drops and 2x StP and never draw my second land ... I play 26 ... wtf!
g3 - Krosan Grips take care of his equipment and Grim Lavamancer kills basically every creature he has. Wing Snare made an appearance and saved my ass at 6 life; Seismic Assault easily outraces his Silver Knight.

Round 3 - Mid-range G/B/r Red Death w shit tons of removal
g1 - Assault + Loam kills all his threats and him.
g2 - This one goes LOOONG. He Duresses first turn and doesn't take Seismic Assault. Swords and Loam get Extirpated and Lavamancer makes an even trade with my Goyf and his Tombstalker. Late game he is at 8 and I have Seismic Assault in play and I keep drawing lands and getting beat with another Tombstalker .... Barbarian Ring finishes him off when I draw the 3rd land in a row.

Round 4 - Countertop Thopter - ID - Had we played I would have smashed him.

Round 5 - Glimpse Elves

g1 - Turn 1 Lavamancer kills all his relevant threats and I have 2x Goyfs + Crusher in play.
g2 - I DD on turn 2 and he recovers!!! He attempts to combo off but can't find the second Summoner's Pact. Crusher + Jitte and Seismic Assault with Loam in the yard on my next turn makes him scoop.

Then we split in the top 4.

Overall the deck was savagely good. This is kind of a strange cross between Zoo and Loam ... in the end it is a very much AGGRO LOAM!!! There is a lot of work to be done to the deck as I am really not very satisfied with the list. I want to play Knight but at the same time, I would almost rather have Pridemage due to the versatility. I would certainly never run 4x Knight due to the cc as this deck is designed to fuck everything in the format aside from Dredge (which is on a complete downswing due to the hate and consistency) and combo which is an auto-loss.

Grim Lavamancer is the absolute nuts in this deck. I realize he is graveyard dependant but ... he is soooo good in the early game that he easily buys time to make it to mid which is where this deck completely flourishes. I realize there are some strange card choices and Basilisk Collar is the lone standout. Truth is I never drew it but I abolutely love the synergy this card has with the weaker creatures in the deck; mainly Pridemage, Finks, and Lavamancer (machie gunner muthafucka)!!! The lack of DD is apparent and I did this for a reason. I wanted to build a deck that is good against all aggro decks and CB based decks. DD seals games but is largely reliant in the graveyard, as is Knight. This is a very aggressive Loam deck that genuinely does not give a shit about the graveyard. If your opponent starts the game with a black leyline in play .. it really doesn't matter that much. Because u divert towards an awkward version of Zoo. SA and Loam are graveyard dependent, and the option to abuse either is there, but u are not focused on the graveyard to win games, its that simple. I feel this versio of the deck is ridiculously strong since it has most of the benefits of traditional Aggro Loam with few of the weaknesses.

Combo and Dredge are still a near auto-loss. And I am totally fine with that. Loam never had a good matchup against either and I simply choose to avoid those since neither is very prominent in my meta. Dedicating SB slots to them would be near insulting so I chose to make every other matchup better. Chalice would help, no doubt, but even with Chalice it can still be Duressed and any combo player with a bit of sense is gonna beat Loam. I never once dropped a tournament match to this deck when was playing something that wasn't Belcher. And even then, my buddy tonight was playing Loam w 4x Chalice main and almost lost to Belcher, going 2-1 to pure luck. Combo is not a matchup this deck can handle. Perhaps running a single Extract or Cranial Extraction in the board would help win the combo match but ... its still so bad I don't even worry about it. The fact that you have an advantage over probably 75% of the field is way good enough for me.

Now I am not advocating that people sleeve this list up. I have tested it and and really works in my meta. Yours may be different. But the way I see it, Chalice really sucks against a lot of the meta right now, especially against Merfolk and Goblins. Unless it hits turn 1 ..... it sucks. And late game when you draw it, how dead of a card is it? Best case scenario you drop it @ 2 and turn a good portion of your deck off. Maybe it belongs in the side. And Knight of the Reliquary, I really like the card, its really the fucking nuts, but I am not going to alter my manabase playing a bunch of lands that don't add mana or put some shit in the SB taking up very valuable slots just for the sake of playing him. I have played against it numerous times and know how good it is, but I much prefer a stable manabase w Mox Diamonds. Knight feels like more of a cute Parlor trick that my opponent easily deals with more than a threat. In this list Finks could easily be replaced by Knight. But still, maybe its just the meta I play in, but I absolutely love Pridemage. He deals with problem artifacts and breaks Goyf standstills which is key against Zoo.

I certainly agree this list needs some tweaking, but as it is right now, this deck is a fucking house! Honestly Basilisk Collar and Finks I think are the only real questionable slots. Based on these results and this analysis, what would you change and why? I think optimally it would be + 2 Knight and +1 Lavamancer and I would keep the board the same. Thoughts?

[jazzykat]

Cool list. Comments: unless you are hard up for life gain and then I would honestly look to a washable sb slot to fit the bill I agree with you cutting finks.

Collar can be good or bad. It's not conventional but that doesn't make it wrong.

KotR is incredible. I was shocked he already wasn't in your list. He is a massive beater that doesn't flat out die to relic of progenitus and runs on the theme of the deck. Cute parlor tricks aside think of him as 4 more tarmogoyfs that more likely dodges cb and is immune to spellsnare!

QP is awesome. No justification required in my book.

I face a lot of control with sweepers so I am more inclined to punishing fire but lavamang is definitely my choice in an unknown or maybe even in mine.

[sdematt]

I love Aggro Loam and I'm trying a new build, but I'm weighing costs vs benefits of a few things:

Red is great because you get Burning Wish, Seismic Assault, and Countryside Crusher. But, I'm more interested in the first two.

White gives you Swords and Knight of the Reliquary.

Black gives you Dark Confidant + boardpieces.

I'm wondering if I should drop Red, losing access to Firespout; Drop White, losing Swords, Knight, and possible sideboard slots; Drop Black, losing Dark Confidant, Pulse, Leyline/Extirpates/Plagues.

Ideally, I'd love to run four-colour, with the black Splash being very light for Dark Confidant and Plagues. I want to keep Red for Burning Wish and Assault, even if it costs RRR. I understand it's a bit slow, but it's another way to clear the path of creatures, Planeswalkers, and also just deal damage to the face if I can't get through with creatures.

I've dropped Chalices, as I've found they were never really good enough against combo as I had no discard, counters, etc. to go along with it.

I was thinking a list something along the lines of:

3x Burning Wish
2x Seismic Assault
3x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Firespout
2x Engineered Explosives
19

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Terravore
13

7x Fetchlands
6x Cycling Lands
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Volrath's Stronghold/Tabernacle
6-7 Duals
27

Board:
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life from the Loam
1x Worm Harvest
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
2x Wish Slots
3x Engineered Plague
2/3 Gravehate (Extirpate etc.)
3/2 Other

The only problem running 4 colours is mana screw, but black is splashed so lightly and with Mox Diamond, it may NOT be a problem, but I still have yet it test.

-Matt

[Pulp_Fiction]

I played 4 color a while ago and hated it. When running 5-6 cycle lands, 4-6 colorless lands, and 2-4 lands that only add 1 color it really sucks. If you want to play the black splash, run 1 Bayou/Badlands and just play Stronghold in the main or something like that. The key to this deck is a solid manabase and playing 4 colors is really just terrible. The advantages are obvious but it greatly dilutes consistency and losing games to mana problems is not acceptable in a deck that runs 26 + 4 Mox. Just try and stick w a RGw or RGb build as these are generally the most solid. Back when Loam was ridiculously good, the most successful lists were either RG or RGb. The white splash was never that strong till Knight came along and then everyone started realizing how good StP is in the deck. Chalice used to be amazing, but in my meta it is largely useless and a terrible topdeck in the mid-late game so I don't run it anymore. Pick 2-3 colors and stick with them, the benefits of playing 4 color are not enough to justify the manabase issues you will have.

@jazzykat: TY for the comments. I have been testing a new list with + 2x Knight, +2 Punishing Fire, +1 Path to Exhile and -2 Finks, -1 Collar, -2 Jitte and it feels really solid. While slow, punishing fire is REALLY good, especially in Goyfstills. It kills every relevant Goblin and Merfolk. Late game it feels like a shoddy Seismic Assault but when you have a recurring damage source lategame ... when is that bad? The manabase didn't take a hit as I just added 3x Grove to it and haven't had any problems. What I really like about playing this tiny combo is that the pieces don't suck on their own. Fire owns early on in the game acting like additional StPs in early turns and can return to your hand after you StP something. And Grove is just another Taiga that generally gives your opponent pointless lifepoints. I just really like this tiny combo since you basically are getting something for nothing and when you are stuck drawing shit and your opponent is drawing threats, you are never really down and out. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

Do you think it to be more advantageous running Knight/Swords or Bob? Both are good, but for their own reasons. I guess I could ways run Ghastly in place of Swords, and Crusher in place of Knight, but since you're not running Black, do you find yourself missing Bob's card draw?

-Matt

[ivanpei]

@ AggroZombies, thanks for the comments. I also agree that Seismic Assault is being treated somewhat like a sacred cow. I agree with all your points especially assault being "A loam dependant late game card in a deck full of late game cards". I have been having alot of success with my GBW lists and it is very respectable vs goblins and other aggro decks. The inclusion of swords is great as well as having dudes that are not boltable when they land (knight and the vore).

People underestimate the usefulness of simple junk-esque cards like thoughtseize and STP in this deck. I know you guys love chalice but it really isn't very good if you dont open it on the play or have a mox in your hand. I find it awesome half the time and terrible the other half of the time. Thoughtseize is always good to open and is not mox dependant. I've won games by ripping that T1 vial or necatl from the opponent's hand.

Pridemage is very common now, so Chalice has lost it's lustre somewhat. However these are my opinions. Not having firespouts hurt, definitely. But you will be surprised how big dudes + stp/vindicate can be equally effective against aggro. Bob + loam have been winning me games against control, so that hasnt changed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I agree, play whatever list u want that puts up results, but tonight i went 2-0-1 drop with this list:

4x Burning Wish
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Crusher
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Loam
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Seismic Assault
2x Knight of the Religuary
2x Punishing Fire
1x Path to Exhile

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Mountain

Sideboard

3x Krosan Grip
2x Firespout
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Kitchen Finks

Wish Targets

1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Loam
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Regrowth
1x Wing Snare
After winning 2 rounds then being paired against B/W D & T I drew and dropped because I would rather drink beer w/ my buddies than play magic. But, this list is easily the most savage thing I have ever played against my opponents. I played against Stax and 5c Silvers and just ravaged them. I left because 5$ buckets are > magic cards (IE 5 beers = 5$). But this is easily the most aggressive list of Loam I have ever played. The SB needs some tweaking but this list is close to optimal in the current meta. It literally beats everything besides dredge and combo. Almost every other match is a walk in the park and u are ready to win. I went 4-0 in my mathups tonight. The only reason I am posting now is because I am drunk and my last post no one responded 2 besides 1 awesome person. I don't give a shit about ur list but this is an unbelievably savage list that has its way with most of the format besides combo.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The funny thing is this, none of u fuckers even replied 2 this thread and don't even deserve this insight ... but since i am not totally sober i felt the need to updatye this thread and maybe get this thread started again. Once again, this list is 3-0 in tournaments and has sominated my metagame in every possible way. This list has rocked most of the meta and only lost when i dropped to go drink beer:

4x Burning Wish
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Crusher
4x Mox Diamond
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Loam
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Seismic Assault
2x Knight of the Religuary
2x Punishing Fire
1x Path to Exhile

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wasteland
3x Forgotten Cave
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Mountain

Sideboard

3x Krosan Grip
2x Firespout
4x Leyline of Sanctity

Wish Targets

1x Devastating Dreams
1x Worm Harvest
1x Loam
1x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Wing Snare

Now since noone has posted u guys are not deserving of a tournement report so I will give u a short summary of how diminant this deck really is:

round 1: Monoblack aggro
g1 - Assault Dominates
g2 - He gets a god draw and wins on turn 5-6.
g3 - Assault Kills him yet again.

round 2: G/B Discard
g1 - I kill his duals and resolve Crusher ...
g2 - He Tries to mull into the black Leyline and I kill him with Assault in 4 turns.

Round 3 - R/G/b/w Big Zoo w/ Vial
g1: He resolves a Planeswalker .... I waste him out of the game and Seismic Assault kills all threats and him.
g2: Pithing Needle on Wasteland stops my plan ... Seismic Assault + Loam kills his Planeswalker and hims in short fasion.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - Top 8 split

Now I assume noone is going to post about this list. in faict i assume someon is going to say "why not play this or ... why not play that" .... fuck all that shit. This list is SOLID AS HELL. And i assume people will post their lists and say this won in my meta and is whatever. The only reason I am posting this is because I want Loam to be good again and I hope people play something similar to this in their meta because it beats literally 80% of the mata. Dredge and combo yiou lose 2 ... everything else is in your favor, no joke.

[Dark Ritual]

It's an interesting list Pulp. I almost feel as though I should pick up grove of the burnwillows now since you're saying your list is retardedly good against the whole format sans combo and ichorid. How has wish been working out for you? I have always thought that the card was too slow to be good but since you're saying the list you posted has been winning for you maybe I was wrong about wishes power.

[TheShaun]

Not to insult you pulp, but I think a reason that people aren't paying attention are because of the lack of results against real decks. Of the matches you posted, the closest to a real deck is 4c zoo with vials. And I think that's stretching it. 5c slivers, G/B discard, mono black aggro may be solid pet decks, but at a large tournament you we can't count on playing any of these. I'm not saying your list is bad, I'd just like to see a report where you beat merfolk, goblins, real zoo, counterbalance, and rock. Those decks will be the major part of any large tournament, and people will be tentative to play something that hasn't posted any results against them.

[(nameless one)]

So no black splash for Bob. How was that? I wanted to build a R/G budget version and the 3 color gave me insights.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@darkritual: It really is that good. It seems every deck I play has Burning Wish these days. I wouldn't want to play the deck without it, and it is slow but ... so. Against Gobbos and Merfolk you still have a turn 2-3 Firespout/DD game 1 and 7 copies of Loam in the main. I like BW because regardless of what you are playing against it is always relevant. Its Loam, an answer, or a threat. It is also another out to Reanimator. Assuming they get Iona they HAVE to call white and Wing Snare (don't laugh) is awesome. One of the biggest enemies of this deck is Tombstalker and this card handles him nicely and has the added benefit of being good against random stuff like Serra Avenger.

@theshaun: Not at all, post exactly what u think. It ravages all of the decks you mentioned but for some reason I was about 55% preboard against CBThopter shit. I have played it a lot online and have had nothing but success against Merfolk, gobbos, and elves. In particular Merfolk since they have no Ringleaders and 4 real counters. Running 5x Swords, 2x Lavamancers, 2x Punishing Fire, 2x Seismic Assault and better creatures (plus access to Firespout game 1 and potentially 6 after the board) basically ruins their day. Test it out on MWS, it really is an animal against basically all of those. Lavamancer and Punishing Fire are the standouts here though, they easily kill every threat merfolk and gobbos play and usually ensure a mid-late game where Loam really thrives. And you also have the combo of Seismic Assault + deck ... both gobbos and merfolk are nearly dead in the water to SA on turn 2-4, even without active Loam it instantly kills any relevant threat and makes drawing 5 lands in a row not so bad :)

@namelessone: I used to play 4c Loam but the deck lost to its own manabase far to often. That and I really just don't like Confidant in the deck. One of my buddies swears by 4x Confidant, 4x Crusher, 4x Goyf, and 4x Chalice in the main. I used to run something similar to that and just didn't like it. Bob sucks at everything except drawing cards and can do nothing relevant in the early game and sucks late game when you are at lower life. He can't block, sucks at attacking, and greatly lowers the threat density of a deck already low in that area. I don't think there is a such thing as budget Loam, you HAVE to play Mox Diamonds, Goyf, Wasteland, and fetches/duals. Everything else is relatively cheap, but in order to be any kind of competetive you would not want to run it without those cards.

[Philipp2293]

Have you ever considered swapping the Path for a third Fire? Or is the 5th Sword effect too important for hitting stuff you can't burn down?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I did think about the 3rd PF but I think 5x Swords is too important. Especially on the draw against turn 1 Lackey and no Mox Diamond to get rid of him early with Fire. PF is an excellent card but it is really hit or miss against something like Zoo, so I think 5x Swords is better. However, the 3rd Fire certainly wouldn't be wrong if you play against a lot of merfolk, elves, or Death and Taxes variants. Against them most relevant threats you can burn but sometimes they get the triple lords going and since your creatures are better you can stall, but its just nice to draw the instant answer and start swinging. 5x answers to Goyf never hurt either :)

[sdematt]

I've been innovating on an RBG Firespout build, but it wasn't ready to present as of yet.

-Matt