[Deck] Sligh

[Jon Stewart]

Update:

The recently spoiled Kiln Fiend is fantastic, allowing you to attack for between 7-10 damage on the third turn to win you the game, all while burning out a blocker thanks to 1cc Burn Spells, Fireblast and Rift Bolt. But playing Fiend also means the deck needs to minimize the number of creatures it plays and maximize the number of sorceries/instants it plays, taking the deck in a radically different direction.

If you are curious, this is what my Kiln Fiend test build currently looks like, and I've grown quite fond of each and every card in the deck...

//Mana
18 Mountain (You could play a few fetchlands here as well)

//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast

3 Price of Progress
2 Shard Volley (Other Options: Lava Dart vs. Jackal Pup vs. Spark Elemental vs. Figure of Destiny)
2 Keldon Marauders (Other Options: Searing Blaze vs. Hellspark Elemental vs. Magma Jet)


Keldon Marauders/Searing Blaze and Price of Progress and Shard Volley have very occasionally backfired on me. But everything else has been incredibly good, 100% of the time. And PoP, Shard Volley, Fireblast and Searing Blaze when they do work (they usually do), are insanely powerful. But I could see Magma Jet filling in for any of those cards that you are uncomfortable with. No matter what you do, there should definately be 4 Searing Blaze between your sideboard and your maindeck.

I would absolutely be playing Magma Jet myself if it weren't for the fact that almost no one plays 1 toughness and 2 toughness creatures anymore. Lets just call it the Goyf effect, but nowadays, I rarely see anything with a toughness less than 3, 4, or 5.

Much much lower on the list of potential playable cards I'm considering are Genju of the Spires, Figure of Destiny, Jackal Pup, Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental and a few other creatures. Did I leave anything out, particularly as far as Instants and Sorceries are concerned? Special thanks to Angelfire for reminding me of the fantastic Manamorphose, it's ability to let you play a 56 card deck, and the synergy it has with Grim Lavamancer and Kiln Fiend, especially now that mana burn is no longer an issue.

The Original Opening Post

Mono Red Sligh recently slogged it's way through 17 rounds to place 11th at GP Madrid, the largest legacy tournament in history, with over 2000 players! :eek:

There are a number of creatures printed in the past few years that make it easy for Sligh to abuse Reckless Abandon. Reckless Abandon still remains perhaps the single best reason to play Sligh instead of Burn. Simply sacrifice the creature after your attack phase, and Reckless functions as a great finisher robbing your opponent of the last fifth of their life. It gets even more brutal if you have a Fireblast to supplement it. An opening consisting of some combination of Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning (17), Rift Bolt (14), Lava Spike (11), Spark Elemental (8), Reckless Abandon (4) and Fireblast (0) usually means a turn three win.

//Threats
4 Spark Elemental
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Reckless Abandon
2 Price of Progress

//Mana
20 Land

// Sample Sideboard
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Price of Progress
2 Blood Moon



Alternative Creatures

My experience suggests that the deck needs to play 15 creatures (4 with Unearth) to consistently fuel the 3 Reckless Abandon. You should never play more because the direct damage burn spells available to you are so strong. As a result, several excellent creatures had to be cut. As good as Grim Lavamancer is, it's rather mana intensive (it requires far more mana to deal the same amount of damage as your other spells). It's also better the later it shows up, and you never want to see it in multiples, so playing just 3 copies makes sense. The unspoken rule of legacy still applies for the most part, nobody blocks in legacy (unless they have Vigilance). They play a creature, and they attack with it the first chance they get, they never leave it untapped anticipating that a creature with haste will show up and neccesitate that they block it. So by playing lots of creatures with haste, you are able to abuse this situation.

Goblin Guide - As aggressive as this creature is, I am not yet convinced that it is worthwhile to risk aiding your opponent's mana development. However, testing may prove me wrong.

Jackal Pup - I love this card. I wish there was room for it. But alas, a 2/1 for one mana that doesn't even protect your lifetotal, doesn't have a place in modern legacy.

Mogg Fanatic - Mogg Fantastic isn't anywhere near as fantastic as it used to be before the rules change that got rid of most of it's tricks.

Slith Firewalker - I believe it is too slow in the current meta.



Alternative Spells

The deck only has room for 25 burn spells. And the options available to it are all absurdly powerful. The 23 most potent burn spells do 3-4 damage for 0 to 1 mana, putting your opponent on a three or four turn clock. Likewise, Price of Progress is incredibly effective in the current meta. And those are the spells that I opt to play. Compared to these, previously solid burn spells like Incinerate simply don't even warrant consideration. Thus fantastic burn spells, once considered staples in sligh/burn have to be left behind.

4 Magma Jet - It is a great card, but it simply can't compete with 23 burn spells that do 3-4 damage to your opponent for 0-1 mana. Scry or no Scry, paying twice as much mana to deal half as much damage isn't efficent.

4 Price of Progress - This card is an automatic four of between your maindeck or your sideboard. If lots of your opponent's play duals, I wouldn't hesistate to cut Lava Spike to make room for three to four copies of these. But in an unknown meta, playing 2 maindeck and 2 more in the board makes sense.




Discussion of sideboard options could go on for pages. What cards you play in the board is a personal decision entirely dependent on your meta. For example, if you anticipate facing Ichorid or Reanimator, you should likely play graveyard hate. So I will save that discussion for a later date.

Likewise, whether it is worthwhile to play Barbarian Rings to supplement the damage, or to play fetchlands to fuel Grim Lavamancer and aid Searing Blaze is also a decision that should almost entirely be made based on how popular Stifle is in your meta, and how aggresively your opponents attack your lifetotal.

[herbig]

You could use some fetchlands to better support Lavamancer. While you're doing that, you can splash green for Tarmogoyf.



The rule still applying, nobody blocks in legacy. They play a creature, and they attack with it the first chance they get, they never leave it untapped anticipating that a creature with haste will show up and neccesitate that they block it. So by playing lots of creatures with haste, you are able to abuse this situation.

If you go turn one Spark Elemental, I may do some mental jockeying and reconsider this rule of mine.

[Sevryn]

Is there any room at the top of the curve for Ball Lightning?

[Jon Stewart]

There's nothing worse than investing three mana into a Ball Lightning only to get it Smothered, FoWed, or StPed. It causes too big a loss of tempo. You play almost entirely 0cc and 1cc spells for a reason. You want to win by turn four, even if one or two cards get countered or removed, you will still be playing multiple cards a turn and thus applying pressure on your opponent every turn. Also, a big reason why you play creatures is Reckless Abandon. To play and attack with a Spark Elmental, and then play Reckless Abandon that same turn saccing Spark to deal 7 damage total, only cost you two mana. To play and attack with a Ball Lightning, and then play Reckless Abandon that same turn costs your four mana, which IS above this deck's curve.


You could use some fetchlands to better support Lavamancer. While you're doing that, you can splash green for Tarmogoyf.

I mentioned the possibility of playing fetchlands in the OP. It depends almost entirely on if your meta has Stifle roaming around. Giving opponents the chance to cripple your mana development and slow you down by several turns isn't worth the occasonal extra damage you get off a Lavamancer.

Tarmogoyf brings with it it's own share of pros and cons. This deck really wants the number of cards with a casting cost over one, to be kept to an absolute minimum. While Goyf doesn't cost three mana, the same argument against Ball Lightning, can be made about Goyf. When Goyf gets StPed, and it almost always will, you take a tempo hit. In addition...

a.) It's not really all that fast a creature. This deck aims to win on the third turn. Sometimes it takes as long as the fourth turn. Tarmogoyf slows that down significantly. The deck doesn't play any artifacts, enchantments or planeswalkers either, so Goyf never gets all that large without help from your opponents.

b.) You open your deck up to color screw and inconsistency. Even with eight fetchlands and four nonbasics, you will only be playing 12 green sources. That's not enough to ensure you see one every game. You have no cantrips to try and find a green source should you have a Goyf in your hand.

c.) It makes your mana base vulnerable. Everything from Stifle to Wasteland attacks your manabase and slows you down by atleast two turns, where as those cards didn't even phase you before.

It just doesn't offer enough for this deck to warrant splashing another color in my experience.

[herbig]

When Goyf gets StPed, and it almost always will, you take a tempo hit.

The same argument could be used for Hellspark Elemental. If a burn deck uses any creatures at all above one mana, Tarmogoyf should be one of them. I think if you tested with Tarmogoyf you would come to the same conclusion.

Tarmogoyf is also a Moat against up to two opposing Tarmogoyfs, buying you more of your precious tempo you lost when they Sworded your Hellspark Elemental you baited with. Your aim is to win, not win in 4 turns.

[Jon Stewart]

Sligh works.

Pablo Diaz makes 11th at GP Madrid with MonoR Sligh (out of a whopping 2225 players and 17 rounds), you can read it in Wizards' Coverage.

I would think that should be enough to shut the naysayers up. If 11th out of 2000+ players after 17 rounds in the largest tournament in Magic's history isn't enough to convince you of Mono Red Sligh's viability, nothing will.

P.S: I'm still searching for his decklist, which doesn't appear to be posted anywhere. But it is certain from the coverage that Pablo's list did play Goblin Guide.

I'm reconsidering my stance on the card. Goblin Guide is exceedingly fast and has haste. It only has a 1 in 3 chance of getting your opponent an extra land. And the other 2 of 3 times, it's actually helpful by letting you know what your opponent will be drawing next and giving you a very good indication of what matchup you're facing off against.


The same argument could be used for Hellspark Elemental.

Which is one reason why Hellspark is actually one of the weaker cards in the deck. Regardless, the reason I play Hellspark is because it has both Haste, and Unearth (and even Trample). Both Haste and Unearth are fantastic in this deck and make up for Hellsparks higher than the deck's ideal casting cost. Trample occasionally helps as well. Goyf has none of those abilities.

And actually, tempo is the least worrisome of Goyfs three main problems. You simply opted to not even address the other two so I'll reiterate..

"b.) You open your deck up to color screw and inconsistency. Even with eight fetchlands and four nonbasics, you will only be playing 12 green sources. That's not enough to ensure you see one every game. You have no cantrips to try and find a green source should you have a Goyf in your hand and no way to cast it. This deck lives or dies by it's consistency. Anything that dimishes that is a bad thing. And if you try adding cantrips, you slow this deck down even more.

c.) It makes your mana base vulnerable. The second you add Goyf to the deck, everything from Stifle to Wasteland can now attack your manabase and slow you down by atleast two turns, where as those cards didn't even phase you before."

Edit to add more content to my explanation:

There is no reason to open up the manabase to being disrupted just to play four copies of a creature that doesn't fit this decks game plan very well anyways (and actually makes Grim Lavamancer worse). There is absolutely nothing Goyf offers this deck that makes the trade off in speed and consistency worthwhile.

This deck isn't the same as Zoo. It's not as versatile, but it is roughly a full turn faster, more explosive, and less vulnerable to mana screw.

The second you add eight fetchlands and green, just to play a creature that slows down your deck in the process (Goyf) there is no reason not to add white as well and just pay Zoo. Once you give up the airtight manabase and speed, why not play Zoo? What advantage do you retain by half assing it and playing Goyf Sligh? Atleast Zoo gets access to cards like Wild Nacatl, StP and Qasali Pridemage.

You can either have speed and invulnerability to mana disruption, as this deck does. And as a bonus, you get to play kickass cards like PoP, Fireblast, Blood Moon and win on turn three.

Or you can sacrifice speed for non hasty but more resilient creatures, more versatility, but a slower deck that has a very vulnerable mana base as Zoo does. And you get all the bombs that white has to offer.

If you're fortunate enough to be in one of the last corners of legacy where Wasteland, Stifle, Blood Moon and every other nonbasic hate other the sun aren't super prevalent, go to the Zoo thread, and netdeck a list from there. There's no point in half assing it. If you're going to splash and slow the deck down, just go one step further and play Zoo. And you get to use awesome (albeit slower) cards like StP, Path to Exile and creatures like Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage.

If you do lose games to Stifle, Wasteland etc and want a deck that is resilient to that, then stick with monored. And you get to play with awesome cards like Fireblast, Price of Progress, and Reckless Abandon, and have a decent shot of winning the game by turn three. And if you are so inclined, you can even board in 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus of the Moon to completely screw over all sorts of aggro control and control decks without having to worry about it screwing yourself over as well.

[kicks_422]

Believe me, I've tried Sligh without any splashes. The power level just isn't there. Sure it's great to play casually, but when you run into Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and Tendrils of Agony, you'll know how much the deck lacks, especially without a splash. And it has long since evolved into RG Dryad Sligh, into RG Goyf Sligh, into RGW Goyf Sligh, which is just a few cards away from RGW Zoo.

I think my (severely outdated, pre-Goyf) Dryad Sligh primer is still floating around here somewhere. You might want to search for that.

EDIT: I was running 8 fetches in RG Dryad Sligh, and I was running the same number when I was still running mono-Red before that (8 red fetches, 10 basics). I honestly can't remember a game I lost due to a Stifle on my fetchland, though I'm not sure if that particular strategy was already popular back then.

Also, running fetchands allows you to run Plated Geopede

[Gocho]

I tried a similar deck when Hellspark was printed because I have a playset of Reckless Abandon. My idea was: If I can cast two 4-damage cards and four 3-damage cards, you can make 20 damage at turn 3-4 every game. So with 18 lands, 14 cards for 4-damage and 28 cards for 3-damage I had a deck.

I add Flame Rift, to get the 14 4-damage. Didn't works very well because I only play 12 creatures (no Lavamancer), and crush vs 2nd turn Counterbalance (too much low costs). I'll test with 15.

What decks do you side-in the 3 Searing Blaze? Wouldn't be better a full set of Blood Moon?

You need something vs gain life cards. Sulfuric Vortex is the most played option.

[herbig]

Which is one reason why Hellspark is actually one of the weaker cards in the deck. Regardless, the reason I play Hellspark is because it has both Haste, and Unearth (and even Trample)...Goyf has none of those abilities.

Goyf's ability is that it's fucking huge. You open on turn one whatever. I play fetchland, Ponder. You go turn two whatever. I play a 3/4 Goyf. I'm at 13 and 12 of your cards are turned off unless you want to go two for one, which I will gladly do against burn.

Merfolk plays 12 Islands and tends to find one quite often.

You are overstating the ability of other decks to hamper your manabase with a small green splash. If they want to sit on their Stifle you can do that all day too while you draw more cards. If they play a Wasteland, fetch up that mountain and have at it.


Have you playtested your deck with Goyf and without?

[FoulQ]

I gotta be honest Jon, I'm always confused as to why you try to defy popular results. The ubiquitous of Tarmogoyf in legacy, especially in burn-based decks, should be enough evidence to convince you that it is the best primary strategy for a deck like this. You aren't reliant on tarmogoyf, so its not like stifle is countering the storm on your tendrils or something. It is just a fetchland, and it takes an investment of the opponent not spending that one blue mana on something that can keep up with the fast pace of a goyf sligh deck.

You can admit that it is financial. I'm not claiming it is, but I have noticed you seem to play mono-colored decks without goyf. Hey, I'm the same way, considering I play primarily gobbos and secondary merfs. But we shouldn't try to logically explain why we wouldn't play goyf in a deck like this when all evidence points to yes. If it is financial, I say more power to you for trying to innovate mono red sligh.

Plus you get krosan grip out of the sideboard, a major boon. 12 green sources is plenty, considering that goyf is more of a mid-game punch for the deck and the SB green cards are usually reactive like grip. In goblins many people only play around 10 sources of the splash and that's about an equal splash as the one herbig is suggesting.

[Jon Stewart]

I gotta be honest Jon, I'm always confused as to why you try to defy popular results.

Good deck building isn't about going with whatever is popular. It's not about going with whatever the conventional wisdom tells you. It's about adjusting to your meta.

If you see a lot of hate for a particular strategy in your meta, the smart deck builder will find a way to circumvent that hate. The lazy deck builder will just netdeck whatever is popular and assume that just because it's popular, it's the best deck for their particular meta, no matter how much hate is running around.

What was it, three weeks ago, when the majority of legacy players scoffed off Reanimator as a tier two deck, a deck that doesn't even warrant testing against. So much for popular wisdom.

As I indicated in my OP, well before anyone even suggested splashing colors. My meta sees tons of nonbasic hate, while hate for this (chalice etc) is almost nonexistant. Close to half of all the popular legacy decks here play Wastelands. Plenty of decks play blood moon. And everyone still goes with what's popular, playing decks with the most vulnerable manabases imaginable. And I don't think it's just my meta. Just going off the decks to beat list, I'm guessing that whereever you play rainbow manabases, and wasteland/stifle are extremely prevalent as well..

There is no reason to open up the manabase to being disrupted just to play four copies of a creature that doesn't fit this decks game plan very well anyways (and actually makes Grim Lavamancer worse). There is absolutely nothing Goyf offers this deck that makes the trade off in speed and consistency worthwhile.

This deck isn't the same as Zoo. It's not as versatile, but it is roughly a full turn faster, more explosive, and less vulnerable to mana screw.

The second you add eight fetchlands and green, just to play a creature that slows down your deck in the process (Goyf) there is no reason not to add white as well and just pay Zoo. Once you give up the airtight manabase and speed, why not play Zoo? What advantage do you retain by half assing it and playing Goyf Sligh? Atleast Zoo gets access to cards like Wild Nacatl, StP and Qasali Pridemage.

You can either have speed and invulnerability to mana disruption, as this deck does. And as a bonus, you get to play kickass cards like PoP, Fireblast, Blood Moon and win on turn three.

Or you can sacrifice speed for non hasty but more resilient creatures, more versatility, but a slower deck that has a very vulnerable mana base as Zoo does. And you get all the bombs that white has to offer.

If you're fortunate enough to be in one of the last corners of legacy where Wasteland, Stifle, Blood Moon and every other nonbasic hate other the sun aren't super prevalent, go to the Zoo thread, and netdeck a list from there. There's no point in half assing it. If you're going to splash and slow the deck down, just go one step further and play Zoo. And you get to use awesome (albeit slower) cards like StP, Path to Exile and creatures like Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage.

If you do lose games to Stifle, Wasteland etc and want a deck that is resilient to that, then stick with monored. And you get play with awesome cards like Fireblast, Price of Progress, and Reckless Abandon, and have a decent shot of winning the game by turn three. And you even get to board kickass cards like Blood Moon without having to worry about it screwing you over as well.

[kicks_422]

So you won't lose to Wastelands/Stifles/Blood Moons/etc. from having a mono-colored manabase. That's cool.

But how would you win?

I mean, I'm sure this deck would steal games. Sligh always had the capability of doing that. But like I said, when you run into Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and Tendrils of Agony, what do you do?

[Jon Stewart]

FUCK! I lost the indepth explanation of the countertop matchup I just spend over an hour working on to a "Database Error" that occurred after I submitted my post and made the whole site inaccessible.

I don't have the patience or the desire to type it up all over again. If there is any way a mod could retrieve the post (it's the post that's about 10 paragraphs long), assuming the site cached what I posted somewhere, I would tremendously appreciate it.

To quickly sum up the main points...

I've repeatedly found that the deck actually fares pretty well against most Goyf and Countertop decks. The matchup really depends on how much countermagic your opponent sees, and if they luck into both pieces of the Countertop combo early on. They usually don't. The odds of them seeing both Top and Counterbalance in their opening 10 cards (counting Brainstorm) is a mere 2.5% Even in the opening 15 is under 5%. And the other 95% of the time that they don't assemble both pieces fast enough, it's not tough for you to win.

Ad Nauseum is the centerpiece of the combo these days. And while yes, it's not a great matchup (nor a frequent one). And i probably wouldn't play this deck in a meta where lots of people play tendrils combo. It's not a horrible matchup either. If they give you two turns, you cripple their life total enough that they can frequently fizzle with Ad Nauseum and lose the game. If they give you three turns, the game is already over.

An opening consisting of some combination of Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning (17), Rift Bolt (14), Lava Spike (11), Spark Elemental (8), Reckless Abandon (4) and Fireblast (0) or a number of variations of those all guarantee you a third turn win against the matchup.

The cards that I actually have a tough time against are actually Chalice of the Void+Trinishere combined with a fast clock. And in a meta where I see those often, I wouldn't play this deck.

Where did this idea that a deck can't have any bad matchups come from anyways? Every deck in the format has plenty of bad matchups. Ichorid has some terrible matchups post board. And it's still a deck to beat/watch. The trick is to pick the gameplan that suits your meta, and if necessary, tweak it to circumvent the sideboard cards that you see often.

[Gocho]

Sligh works.

Pablo Diaz makes 11th at GP Madrid with MonoR Sligh, you can read it in Wizards' Coverage. He played Burn with Ball Lightning, Figure of Destiny, Grim Lavamancer and Goblin guide. Sounds like sligh to me. But there aren't any list.

SelfQuote:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16682-Community-project-Gathering-Top-32-of-GP-Madrid&p=433420&viewfull=1#post433420



Pablo Diaz was playing mono-red burn. You can find his feature match vs. Paulo Vitor on Round 13.

After reading the Feature Match, I think that he played mono-red Sligh. Ball of Lightning and Grim Lavamancer would come in, but Figure of Destiny and Goblin Guide aren't Burn cards.

Do you think that he doesn't face any Tarmo after 17 rounds?

I played vs Canadian a lot of times with Burn. The best card was Volcanic Fallout because can't be countered. Many games, I lost with my opponent at 2-4 life points because I can't kill him before Tarmo kill me. You know that another Tarmo would improve this matchs, Why can't speed improve them too?

[Jon Stewart]

Thanks for the post Gocho. A 11th out of 2000+ players after 17 rounds in the largest tournament in Magic's history is a ridiculously amazing feat.

Is Pablo's full Mono Red Sligh list posted anywhere to your knowledge? I would love to add that list to the OP if it's available.

[herbig]

Have you playtested your deck with Goyf and without?

[Jon Stewart]

Why the hell would I? If you don't yet understand why it makes absolutely no sense to screw up the manabase in my (and I imagine most) metas, go read the rest of the thread.

If you insist that I must splash and make my manabase vulnerable and less consistent just to play slower creatures, don't half ass it, just tell me to go play Zoo. By swtiching to Zoo, you give up a full turn of your speed, your manabase and several maindeck and sideboard options, which you're already giving up by splashing for goyf. But you get to use awesome (albeit slower) cards like StP, Path to Exile and versatile creatures like Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage.

And if you continue to insist that a strategy that just placed 11th out of 2225 players in the biggest tourney in magic history is fundamentally wrong, and needs to splash a color in order to be competitive, then you're not making any sense.

[crow_mw]

Big props on the list. I totally agree Goyf does not belong here. Heck, even some RG Sligh builds opted to drop him. Sure, running RG has some advantages over this list, but mono R has advantages which cannot be discarded simply by 'need moar goyfs'.



...when you run into Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, and Tendrils of Agony, you'll know how much the deck lacks, especially without a splash.


I don't get that point. Goyf does not help you against assembled cb-top lock. Quite the opposite, slowing yourself down gives them more time to assemble it. Pretty much the only chance an aggro strategy has against combo is racing them. Again - slowing yourself down with goyf decreases your chances of winning (Goyf is 3/4 or even worse 2/3 for 2 mana here). As for opposing goyfs - sure they shut your creatures down, but they are far from invalidating your game plan.

[overseer1234]

Well, I've allway's been a big fan of sligh so I like that I'm not the only one playing it.

Here's my list from before they nerfed fanatic)

4x Blood Knight
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Figure of destiny
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Genju of the Spires
4x Fireblast
3x Incinerate
4x Lava Dart
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet Instant
14x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Chain Lightning

//sideboard
4x pyroblast
4x pyrostatic pillar
3x proce of progress
4x shattering spree

For now I would just replace mogg fanatic with goblin guide unless your meta iss ichorid infested, in which case I would keep fanatic.

Blood knight may seem weak, but the first strike+burn make's it easier to kill other creature's without getting serious card disadvantage, also with path to exile, Swords to plowshare's, rhox war monk, and qasali prodemage's roaming everywhere, this guy just got even better. Also a house in the goblin matchup (killing everything they got)

Figure of destiny, used to be jackal pup, but this give's us a better chance if the game happens to go long.

Genyu of the spire: the first time around it's a tad bit worse than ball lightning, but then it keep's on coming back and he's a house.

Lava dart: good in agro matchup's but probably not good enough anymore... you could replace it with a 4th incinerate and 3 price of progress so you get some more boarding-space (don't like PoP in the main deck since it can't kill of creature's in a pinch...), however I still like it.

[paK0]

And if you continue to insist that a strategy that just placed 11th out of 2225 players in the biggest tourney in magic history is fundamentally wrong, and needs to splash a color in order to be competitive, then you're not making any sense.

True, but from what I read you seem to be a little paranoid about splashes.

If we look at the DTB there are only 2 decks that do NOT run 3+ colours.

[Jon Stewart]

MonoR Sligh just placed 11th out of 2250 people. So how can any of you continue to argue that the deck somehow doesn't function well or perform well without splashing? Especially when the splash tends to slow the deck down, make it less consistent, and make it vulnerable.


If we look at the DTB there are only 2 decks that do NOT run 3+ colours.

Which is precisely why it's so advantagous to play a deck that can truly abuse cards like Price of Progress and postboard Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon to absolutely wreck those decks.

If we splash to play slower creatures, there is absolutely no excuse to not also splash white for slower but bombier creatures like Pridemage, Teeg, StP etc. And Naya Sligh/Zoo doesn't get to play cards like Blood Moon and PoP, it's almost as vulnerable to them as those decks are. It doesn't even get to play with Fireblast.

What does the Goyf do for you anyways that's actually worth the slowing down of your deck and clock?

As crow correctly pointed out... "Goyf does not help you against assembled cb-top lock. Quite the opposite, slowing yourself down gives them more time to assemble it. Pretty much the only chance an aggro strategy has against combo is racing them. Again - slowing yourself down with goyf decreases your chances of winning (Goyf is 3/4 or even worse 2/3 for 2 mana here). " (And it doesn't even have haste).

[Galroth]

I'm interested in seeing the list Sligh list that placed 11th at Madrid. And I'd be weary about using that argument as anything substantive prior to seeing that list. Large events have a tendency to mis-characterize a deck by using a common or traditional name when the last could largely vary from what is in your opening post.

Figure of Destiny, Grim Lavamancer are a far cry from Hellspark Elemental and Reckless Abandon. That's not to say that we don't need a MonoR Sligh category in established decks. But rather than watch this thread quickly degenerate into a flurry of scrubs posting their homebrew list (like every MonoR thready always does), I'd suggest starting with the list that placed 11th.

[Jon Stewart]

I would be happy to add the list to the OP the second someone can find the full list. However this thread was started with the list that I know best, the list that's been proven to work for me. The GP placing only serves to reaffirm, that indeed mono red sligh has all the tools needed to win tournaments and succeed in most legacy metas.

And once the list is found, it would be a great point of discussion and analysis as well. Nevertheless, the list isn't needed for this thread or for the discussion on Red Sligh to exist. This isn't like Pikula where the GP list was the first iteration to exist. Sligh has existed well before this GP. It just didn't always have all the tools that are currently available to it from recent sets.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This may not be optimal necessarily, but for the sake of discussion, I thought I'd mention that I always wanted to play a Red Sligh deck that splashed white for Jotun Grunt. He's just a beast in any deck that bins as many of its own cards as this one, not to mention that he plays rather well with Reckless Abandon. I feel that in this type of a shell, he would actually be more aggressive than Goyf, and compete less with Grim Lavamancer. He's still a 4/4 for two mana, no matter how many cards you have in your graveyard. And between all the haste creatures which live until the end of the turn, the burn spells, and the fetch-lands you would include to splash white, I think Grunt and Grim could get along ok... Also, he does a decent job of solving the "needs moar Goyf" criticism, since he provides maindeck Goyf hate while having a healthy body to beat with.

Grunt is the only white card that I could see being auto-include in the maindeck (if splashing white is explored), but white brings some other good options. Lightning Helix could also be a good card if your meta has a whole lot of aggro. And Path to Exile out of the sideboard could be sexy, since one of this deck's main weaknesses can sometimes be other larger creatures. Also, white brings artifact/enchantment destruction, although nothing really as good as K Grip.

Anyways, just a thought. I'm not saying it would be optimal, but I think it's at least a decent suggestion.

Regarding the mono-red version though, (ie the one in the OP) I think Goblin Guide should definitely be explored. 4 might not be the correct number, but he sort of seems too good not to use, at least in theory, since if you can get him to connect twice, you've already speeded up your clock in comparison to Lightning Bolt/ Lightning Elemental, etc.

Any food for thought in there?

[miko]

Regarding the mono-red version though, (ie the one in the OP) I think Goblin Guide should definitely be explored. 4 might not be the correct number, but he sort of seems too good not to use, at least in theory, since if you can get him to connect twice, you've already speeded up your clock in comparison to Lightning Bolt/ Lightning Elemental, etc.

Any food for thought in there?

There is no reason not to play Goblin Guide in a Mono Red Sligh build. I would even prefer him to Ball Lightning. It always deals at least 2 damage because your ops will always tap up blockers in legacy in order to attack. So Guide at least is a shock if not even a Fireblast...

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I agree. Goblin Guide seems really strong.

I'm just trying to figure out what to cut for it. Maybe Keldon Marauders? What would you cut for Goblin Guide?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Not quite sure what to cut for it exactly, but in your list, I think Keldon Maruaders, Hellspark Elemental, and Mountains 19-20 are the things that you should try cutting first.

I realize that Fireblast is Mountain-hungry, and it's totally an awesome card, but it might be better to run 3 copies if that lets you get away with cutting one or two lands. Mana flood is terrible for this deck.

[miko]

I would definitely cut Price of Progress and play 2-4 in sideboard. That way you have at least 2 slots for Goblin Guide. As this deck is a Sligh-build I would cut 1-2 Lava Spikes and try to use Guides instead. Lava Spikes does not affect the board, what you might want to do when you want to press some damage through with your creatures.

[Jon Stewart]

All good suggestions.

If I go with miko's suggestion, to cut burn spells (PoP and some Lava Spikes) to make room for Goblin Guide, I would be playing 19 creatures, which should atleast in theory be more than enough to support 4 Reckless Abandon.

At that point, 4 Reckless Abandon, I could probably get away with cutting a Fireblast and a Mountain or two as well, and maybe even put the PoP's back in (they're really strong in my meta, or for those who don't like PoP, to put the 2 Lava Spikes back in).

But I'm not sold on playing 4 Abandon either, or on playing 19 creatures. 15-17 and 3 Abandon seems like the correct number somewhat because it makes it very easy for you to burn your opponent out after the first two turns. I could see myself cutting 2 Keldon Marauders, or hell even 2 Spark Elemental for it.

I play 20 mountains because I don't want to miss my land drops until the third turn (that's the best shot I have at winning on turn 3), but I do not infrequently get to 4 lands, so maybe the deck would function perfectly well with 19 or even 18 lands.

Another option is instead of straight up cutting lands, playing a Barbarian Ring or two. That way, excess lands have lots of different routes to be sacced to deal damage. This has some dysnergy with Lavamancer though AND with Fireblast, and threshold is sometimes very tough to reach for the deck. So I'm thinking Barbarian Ring just isn't worth it.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think this is the rare deck where Keldon Megaliths might actually be better than Barbarian Ring, if you're looking for utility lands. I think Hellbent will be much easier to achieve than Threshold in this type of deck.

However, I would really consider dropping down to 19 lands, since the curve is so ridiculously low.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I'm going to drop down to 19 mountain (may even try 18), and work on getting a full playset of goblin guide to test.

[Gocho]

I'm interested in seeing the list Sligh list that placed 11th at Madrid. And I'd be weary about using that argument as anything substantive prior to seeing that list. Large events have a tendency to mis-characterize a deck by using a common or traditional name when the last could largely vary from what is in your opening post.

Figure of Destiny, Grim Lavamancer are a far cry from Hellspark Elemental and Reckless Abandon. That's not to say that we don't need a MonoR Sligh category in established decks. But rather than watch this thread quickly degenerate into a flurry of scrubs posting their homebrew list (like every MonoR thready always does), I'd suggest starting with the list that placed 11th.

I can't find it in any of the spanish forums.
As you can read in the wizards coverage (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day2#5) he plays this cards:

Bloodstained Mire
Mountain
Barbarian Ring

Goblin Guide
Grim Lavamancer
Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Rift Bolt
Magma Jet
Price of Progress
Ball Lightning
Figure of Destiny

SB:
Red Elemental Blast

So, I'm going to guess a little, and add Fireblast, so he can play something similar to this:


8 Red Fetch
12 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ball Lightning
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast


Maybe he plays lava Spike, but who knows?

[pandaman]

My guess (probably bad guess), if he played Lava Spike:

8 Red Fetch
11 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Ball Lightning
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

If he was playing with 4 Lava Spike he may have been playing with the above. I think that 4 Ball Lightning in a deck with 20 mana sources (and 8 fetchlands) may be too much, so maybe he was only playing with 2-3?

[Gocho]

Upps I (and you too) post a 62 cards deck.

-2 Mountain

[pandaman]

Card count fail :( Would be really nice to see the real list!

[crow_mw]

I like the OP list way better than the guessed Madrid lists. I especially wonder what the hell does FoD do Madrid list. A tech for times when you get mana flooded or what? I wonder if Pablo really uses 4 of them...

[herbig]

Why the hell would I [test with Tarmogoyf]?

Fair enough. I will assume you are playing worse cards purely for financial reasons, and concede defeat to this argument.

[syssc9]

History - I have enjoyed Sligh style decks since Ice Age gave us the 3rd bolt-like cheap burn spell, Incinerate, and pushed this deck over the top for me. I was building a deck for my 15 year old son (He’s 30 now!) Back then I used 3 sets of single CCC Goblins and Goblin Grenade, 3 sets of burn spells, Ball Lightning and the like. We called this deck “The Webber” because it was termed a barbeque deck in our old meta. I rebuilt it for fun a couple years back and it got renamed “Shorty” after I played 3 quick games against the king of Type 2 in a completely different meta in the much bigger city I had moved to.

Earlier this winter I got the hankering again, and the build I came up with looks a lot like the deck at the top of this thread. I love all the new hasty, baby-balls, and am going to have to try out Genju of the Spires as replacement for the real Ball Lightning. I also would like to offer one other creature for consideration. Since Sligh is all about mana curve and using all your mana every turn, it just seems to me that Lightning Serpent is the essence of Sligh. Hasty and scaleable, he will always use whatever mana is available. Seems like he could be usefull here.

And I can hardly wait till someone posts the actual Madrid Sligh decklist (or did I miss it somewhere above?)

[pandaman]

I like the OP list way better than the guessed Madrid lists. I especially wonder what the hell does FoD do Madrid list. A tech for times when you get mana flooded or what? I wonder if Pablo really uses 4 of them...

I suppose FoD is a 1/1 1 drop that you ignore at your peril, because it becomes a 2/2 for 1extra mana, and a 4/4 for an extra three. It could be for when you've hit the midgame and are in topdeck mode, spare mana you can pump into them. That may possibly justify having 4. But I'm with you, I didn't see Sligh running FoD at all at first...

[Jon Stewart]

Fair enough. I will assume you are playing worse cards purely for financial reasons, and concede defeat to this argument.

Lol, I love how you cut off the rest of my quote where I explained why the card doesn't work, why it slows you down, makes you more inconsistent, makes you vulnerable, why haste is so critical for the deck's clock and why you want to feed your yard to Lavamancer. But feel free to continue ignoring the actual reasons if it makes you feel better.

And fyi, I have Goyfs, I play Eva Nought which has four Goyfs in it (refer to my thread on "Eva Nought" if you don't believe me) and am currently also working on building a Bant Aggro deck. I know what Goyf does, and where it fits. It doesnt fit here. It's usually a freaking 2/3 or 3/4 that doesn't even have haste and thus can't even attack until a full turn after it comes out. I made it clear that this deck is designed to put your opponents on a turn 3 or turn 4 clock. And Goyf doesn't fit with that.

Anyways, I'm done talking about this.

crow_mw, I'm with you on Figure of Destiny. Playing 4 makes absolutely no sense imo.

Then again, we have no idea how many he did play, we're just guessing. For all we know, he may have played one maindeck and another one sideboard against the control matchup.

Same with Ball Lighting, or Lavamancer or hell any of the cards. He may have played significantly less than 4 and both are more midgame cards. We really don't know the numbers of each and the list could be completely different from the proposed lists.

Keldon Megaliths is a really crappy card imo. And even Barbarian Ring isn't good or worth playing. You won't get to threshold, and if you're filling up your yard, you are better off feeding it to Lavamancer consistently to get in lots of extra damage.

I think we are better off simply playing 18 or 19 Mountains.

sysscc9, I would personally much rather play Ball Lightning over Lightning Serpant. You are never going to have more than 4 lands in play (If you do, you already lost the game). So the most Lightning Serpent can be is a 5/1. But the curve really peaks at 2 or 3 90% of the games. Ball Lightning does far more damage for less mana.

[overseer1234]

Ball lightning doesn't really fit in a sligh deck imho... It's more like a burn spell that can get countered by removal, same goes for al the elemental's and keldon marauders for that matter, they're cute when you run reckles abandon but further down the road you're making a burn dck with to much "if" cards...

Also, Ive been playing genyu of the spire's for a while now, and like this guy so much better than ball lightning. It's like control's worst nightmare when you drop it ont turn 1 (sure they can remove it, but only STP and Path helps here, since the thing comes back over and over)+ it's not a 1 shot card like all the other elementals so it really puts on a clock.

Then there's blood knight, who's 2/2 for 2 might be a little small for the format, but the first strike make's goblins even more a cakewalk than it was, and with path, qasaly, teeg, warmonk path and plow seeing more and more play, this guy just demands to be loved a hell of a lot more.

I also don't get why people don't run figure of destiny... it together with genyu and grim lavamancer make sure you get there when your optimal gameplan fail's (read: you just don't get to the mid game) by keeping the pressure on them while you should otherwise be dying to the fact that you are topdecking and your opponent is sitting with his hand full.

Going over to the burn spell's that are debatable:

Lava spike: 3 damage for 1 mana, sounds good, but not in a sligh deck, you want every card to either effect the board possition, OR be a game finisher (PoP come's to mind)

Magma Jet: We don't run blue, and SDT sucks up way to much mana, so if you want some consistency then you have to run him, there are enough 2 toughness creature's that you want to nuke at O-EOT to make sure you don't draw crap the next turn and stay in the game.



And finaly there's my thought on the goyf issu:
Don't look at goyf like is the only green thing that you'll be running (kird ape and sideboard krosan grip come to mind). And while it does slow you down a bit, it give's you a better chance of winning through the mid game. Also saying it make's the deck inconsistent is really stupid and ignorant since you run more then enough fetch so that 1 forest 3/4 taiga + 8 fetch should make it pretty easy for you to get the right mana together to cast your spells.

That being said I don't think this splash is nessecary and think that mono red sligh is definitely viable.


To finish this post I'll just repost my decklist since apparently nobody bothered to discus about it:

4x Blood Knight
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Goblin Guide
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Genju of the Spires
4x Fireblast ==> (never really had trouble with running 4..)
3x Price of progress ==> (when I expect the meta to be light on non basics These guys become incinerate and move to the board)
4x Lava Dart ==>(this one's personal, you could run rift bolt or keldon marauders if you like))
4x Lightning
4x Magma Jet
14x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Chain Lightning
Sideboard
4x Pyrostatic pillar
3x tormod's crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Shattering Spree

[Jon Stewart]

To finish this post I'll just repost my decklist since apparently nobody bothered to discus about it:

4x Blood Knight
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Genju of the Spires
4x Lava Dart ==>(this one's personal, you could run rift bolt or keldon marauders if you like))


By devoting half of your spell base to slow cards, you're basically giving up against combo and resigning yourself to the midgame against everything else. You have basically zero chance of killing your opponent by turn three, and very little shot at beating them even by turn 4. And you're giving Countertop move than enough time to assemble both pieces of the combo and lock you out. And at that point, yes it indeed makes perfect sense to play Goyf, since you've geared your games to go well into turn 5 anyways.

But my point is, when you're going for that slow a strategy, why not instead play Zoo? Wouldn't that give you access to strictly better midgame cards? I emphasize the early game because that's red's strength, and no other color really has much if anything to contribute to a turn 3/4 win.

I guess we're just at two different philosophies. I've gearing my list to be hyperagressive, and maximize the shot at a turn 3 win, because it works for me, and I feel that is only chance you have against combo esp preboard but even post board. I devote a grand total of seven cards to the midgame (Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elemental, the former more than the latter). I would be willing to play a couple more based on the meta (Genju of the Spires might not be bad for that, haven't really tried it but I do dislike that it gives your opponent a target for their Krosan Grips and Disenchant effects and also effectively takes 4 mana to do what Ball Lighning does for 3). But I would never play more than 10 because it would just make the deck way too slow. I've tried such builds and they never work out that well.

[miko]

If I would play Sligh I would play it straight. That means: Slight wants to press through as much damage as possible as soon as possible. You want to have a well-balanced mixture of cheap creatures with high damage potential (Blood Knight is not such a creature) and burn spells that serve the same category plus affect the board.
One of the best creatures that serve the strategy above is Steppe Lynx. So I would definitely ad Plateaus and Fetchlands (have synergy with Lavamancer too). My creature base would be sth. like that:

3-4 Grim Lavamancer (because it is kind of slow but has a high damage potential)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx

(4 Keldon Marauders (They seem to be pretty good if we want to play Reckless Abandon- if we do not want to play Abandon we can cut them))

Landbase:
We can try to fit in 20-22 Lands - Twelve of them Fetchlands 4 Mountains 2-3 Plateaus 2-3 Wasteland (we might want to put pressure on the op by trying to keep him from stabilizing)

Burn/Removal:
3-4 Fireblast (to press through our last points of damage)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
(2-3 Reckless Abandon)
0-4 Magma Jet
0-4 Rift Bolt
0-4 Lightning Helix

That gives us two possible lists:

Reckless Abandon List:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauder
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
= 16 Creatures

4 Fireblast (if we play Abandon we want to have 4 Fireblasts too, just to end the game very fast)
2 Reckless Abandon
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet (seems to good in this list because it is an instant - which Rift Bolt is not - and since we do not play goyf we do not need more sorceries)
4 Lightning Helix / Path to Exile (Sounds weird in this deck but: helps to kill Rhox War Monk or other Threads like second-third turn Iona)
= 22 Spells
= 38 Cards

Manabase:
12 Fetchlands
3 Plateaus
3 Wastelands (We are the aggressor!)
4 Mountains
= 22 Lands (that we can play because of Steppe Lynx, 12 Fetchlands thinning out library and Magma Jet and Wastelands.)

And "Abandonless" List:
The same list just cutting Marauders and Abandon adding more Burn)

[Fuzzy]

A long time ago, in a format far far away, Red Deck Wins aways had played with 4 Tangle Wires. How good or bad it would be today?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If I would play Sligh I would play it straight. That means: Slight wants to press through as much damage as possible as soon as possible. You want to have a well-balanced mixture of cheap creatures with high damage potential (Blood Knight is not such a creature) and burn spells that serve the same category plus affect the board.
One of the best creatures that serve the strategy above is Steppe Lynx. So I would definitely ad Plateaus and Fetchlands (have synergy with Lavamancer too). My creature base would be sth. like that:

3-4 Grim Lavamancer (because it is kind of slow but has a high damage potential)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx

(4 Keldon Marauders (They seem to be pretty good if we want to play Reckless Abandon- if we do not want to play Abandon we can cut them))

Landbase:
We can try to fit in 20-22 Lands - Twelve of them Fetchlands 4 Mountains 2-3 Plateaus 2-3 Wasteland (we might want to put pressure on the op by trying to keep him from stabilizing)

Burn/Removal:
3-4 Fireblast (to press through our last points of damage)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
(2-3 Reckless Abandon)
0-4 Magma Jet
0-4 Rift Bolt
0-4 Lightning Helix

That gives us two possible lists:

Reckless Abandon List:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauder
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
= 16 Creatures

4 Fireblast (if we play Abandon we want to have 4 Fireblasts too, just to end the game very fast)
2 Reckless Abandon
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet (seems to good in this list because it is an instant - which Rift Bolt is not - and since we do not play goyf we do not need more sorceries)
4 Lightning Helix / Path to Exile (Sounds weird in this deck but: helps to kill Rhox War Monk or other Threads like second-third turn Iona)
= 22 Spells
= 38 Cards

Manabase:
12 Fetchlands
3 Plateaus
3 Wastelands (We are the aggressor!)
4 Mountains
= 22 Lands (that we can play because of Steppe Lynx, 12 Fetchlands thinning out library and Magma Jet and Wastelands.)

And "Abandonless" List:
The same list just cutting Marauders and Abandon adding more Burn)

I think the white splash could potentially be pretty good actually, but I think Jotun Grunt should also be explored if you're going that direction. Ideally, you will be able to feed it burn and dead creatures, use a fetch to shffle your deck, and use Grunt to improve your topdecks. Magma Jet might also be really good with Grunt, but I'm not entirely sure becaus its damage ratio is so inefficient.

[troopatroop]

The best Sligh deck is Naya, simply because Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are the best creatures. Reckless Abandon seems awful, especially in comparison to Reckless Charge.

[kicks_422]

Tarmogoyf

Sssshh, don't mention that here.

[Jon Stewart]

My point always was that if you opt to play slower creatures like Tarmogoyf, you should instead just play Zoo and splash white as well to play cards like Wild Nacatl and Steppe Lynx. There is nothing wrong with going that route. Zoo is an excellent deck that's more resilient (albeit slower). But there is already a thread where you can talk about it.

And I strongly disagree with the notion that this deck HAS to splash to be competitive. That notion is absurd. But if I were to only splash one color (instead of splashing two and playing Zoo), I would much rather splash white alongside 12 fetchlands for a truly fast fat creature like Steppe Lynx than splash green for signficantly slower cards like Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip.

And yes, Tarmogoyf IS slow in relation to everything else this deck plays and in relation to something like Steppe Lynx (that I actually do think is worth splashing for). In a deck with a clock like ours, Tarmogoyf deals half as much damage as Steppe Lynx does and takes up twice as much mana to do so.

I think you almost have to choose between Jotun Grunt and Grim Lavamancer. You can only count on your opponent to fill up their yard in certain matchups. Jotun Grunts is indeed a fantastic and underrated card though.



3-4 Grim Lavamancer (because it is kind of slow but has a high damage potential)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx

(4 Keldon Marauders (They seem to be pretty good if we want to play Reckless Abandon- if we do not want to play Abandon we can cut them))


I really love the idea of Steppe Lynx. But only if the build does play 21 or so lands with 12 fetchlands and 3 wasteland. And here's why...

If you only play 8 fetchlands, and white is not a primary color. When you play eight fetchlands, the odds are, you may well only draw one in the early game. And you may have to pop it to get the white source that lets you play Steppe Lynx in the first place. It leads to a creature that's a 2/3 at best and some turns, just a 0/1. Of course, the second you go up to 12 fetchlands and 3 wastelands, that equation changes.

[overseer1234]

Just for the record, but if you realy want to win like before turn 4 wy not play decks that are proven to do so like ichorid, belcher and storm? because with the idea of "i win before turn 4 ends or I die" sounds pretty damn awfull since most of the deck today are designed to either disrupt combo enough to get to a mid game, or just survive the early game ruch. Seeïng that the latter is what you are trying to do, why een boter with a sligh/burn deck wich is way less consistent

Just a short history checkup tell me that in the mono red spectrum you have:

Dragon stompy: (definetly the abyss of this deck since trinisphere and chalice rape you six ways til Sunday

Burn: I hope I don't have to explain this

Red deck wins: you throw down quick beats and finish off with burn (what you are trying to do here, and yes this deck is different from sligh)

Sligh: namd after the person that defined the concept of mana curve, you play cost efficient creature's (used to be jackal pup, and mogg fanatic) and use (cheap) burn (spells) to effect the board and get there with you creature's whle playing cards that get there through the mid game (used to be cursed scroll)


So I guess that you are trying the more RDW approach which is pretty different from the sligh approach.

Not saying that one build is better then the other, but when you start to play stuff like the elemental family (I'll leave keldon marauders in the middle), and lava spike, then you're not playing Sligh, but more like burn/RDW.

[crow_mw]

I think that resilient manabase and ability to play moon effects and PoP are the major advantages of playing this deck over Naya Sligh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15730-RGW-Naya-Sligh) (Goyf lovers - note that in standard setting Goyf is not recommended there, even though the deck already runs green. Yes Goyf is too slow for t3 kill deck). Admittedly Nacatl is the best sligh creature at the moment and Lynx is very strong. In mono R sligh only Goblin Guide (when played on first turn) can deal 6 damage by turn 3. If this deck was to give up advantages of being mono colored than I don't see reasons to not start playing all three naya colors.

I do not agree however, that mono R sligh is strictly inferior to naya sligh. In 'mirror' and against Zoo mono R has an edge with PoP and Blood Moon. Mono R will also have a much better game against mana denial strategies, such as Tempo Thresh. Admittedly there are matchups in which naya sligh is superior, but the statement 'in every possible meta naya sligh is superior to mono R sligh' is not true.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Just for the sake of discussion, I thought I would post a "white splash" list, along with a hypothetical sideboard (because sideboard seems to be the strongest area the white splash supports.)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Fireblast
2 Reckless Abandon

4 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
4 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serenity
4 Path to Exile
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage

...Or something like that. I'm a little less impressed by how that looks than I thought I would be, lol.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm honestly not a huge fan of Figure of Destiny. It looks rather slow and clunky. You are already playing 15 creatures without it. I would rather play Price of Progress or better yet, 2 Spark Elemental and a 3rd Reckless Abandon in it's place.

Otherwise, the list looks very fast and aggressive. I think only testing can establish if 12 fetches are enough to support Steppe Lynx. Steppe Lynx if it's consistent at getting to 4/5 atleast once but probably twice each game, is worth the splash imo. But otherwise, I don't think white offers enough to the deck to warrant the disadvantages of splashing.

Hell I wouldn't hesistate to go down to 3 Plateau and 3 Mountain to add two more fetchlands. You're already playing so many fetches that you aren't going to be able to play around stifle anyways. So just go all out and abuse Steppe Lynx to the maximum amount possible. It is I feel the only think maindeck that makes the splash worth it.

I agree with you though, I'm not as impressed with the splash as I was hoping to be.

[miko]

I tested the white splash in MWS - too bad that i did not dare bring that deck to a real-life tournament - and found out that it is not too easy to support Fireblast if you play such a low landcount. What I mean is that playing two Fireblasts would mean sacrificing one half of your lands that produce mana. One could argue that the game would be over by the time you have played two of that spells, but sometimes 2 Fireblasts just ain't enough.

I agree with Jon that we should not pay too much attention to Figure. But: I like Dukes list even if I do not think that Sligh is going to be a Deck to Beat - or better: a deck offering consistent results. Because: Goyf Sligh or Naya Zoo are just better and more consistent. Even if a Sligh build placed high in Madrid.

[anarkii]

This discussion is more active than the Boros thread and a lot of players are discussing a white splash so I figure I'd post the list I've been using.

4 Figure of Destiny
4 Plated Geopede
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Steppe Lynx

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile
3 Reckless Abandon
2 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast

4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB:
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Price of Progress
3 Disenchant
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Sulfuric Vortex

I don't like Goblin Guide in a format full of top, brainstorm, and other forms of deck manipulation. I'd much rather run something like path to exile in its place. Spot removal in form of path is critical for a deck relying heavily on Lynx and Geopede to connect in the early turns, and Path is the best removal spell in the format for this sort of deck. More burn helps with this issue as well, as well as enabling the player (along with the many fetches) to have both lavamancer and Grunt in the maindeck. Marauders I haven't tested and I'm looking forward to doing so. I'd imagine I'd cut a copy of lavamancer and possibly a magma jet.

Grunt is amazing, and I cannot justify not putting him in the maindeck, especially when he can be supported fairly easily in a deck able to run so much burn and so many fetches. I'd be more willing to cut lavamancer, who in my opinion is a tad out of place. If there is any reason to splash white it would be for grunt and to a lesser extent, Lynx.

I agree with the OP - cutting down plateaus and upping fetches is simply better.

[miko]

This is a pretty interesting list. It's purely Boros but: The exploitation of landfall seems pretty interesting in my opinion. But: Three Abandons are 1-2 more than we want to support. I would even tend to not play Abandon anymore, because it sucks if you topdeck it after your op stabilized the board.
Grunt is a nice idea since it beats for 4 and shrinks Goyfs. It's true that he is kind of anti-synergistic with Lavamancer. But Mancer is just too important in tribal matchups.
Three Fireblasts on four mountains seems to be pretty greedy by the way. And: 15 Fetchlands is as far as i can see way to much. You want to support Grunt and Lavamancer and the Landfallers but: You also have Magma Jet which helps to find new ammunition for all those needs. So I would rather cut them down to at least 13 just in case. Btw.: What do you need that basic plains for? Just out of curiosity... Are you really afraid of mana-denial?
And: Even if I argued for cutting down fetchlands for the sake of Mountains/Duals because of Magma Jets scry ability, I was not satisfied with testing them. I always wanted to play Chain Lightning or Lightning Bolt instead, because of cc1. So i would again cut them and play two more Chain Lightnings and one more Path.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This discussion is more active than the Boros thread and a lot of players are discussing a white splash so I figure I'd post the list I've been using.

4 Figure of Destiny
4 Plated Geopede
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Steppe Lynx

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile
3 Reckless Abandon
2 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast

4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB:
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Price of Progress
3 Disenchant
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Sulfuric Vortex



I'm not really so sure about Plated Geopede. If he had haste, sure, but he doesn't start dealing damage until turn 3, which is a little suspect for this type of strategy. Also, in a deck that only runs 20 land, you're not going to make your land-drop every turn. It just won't happen. And if you don't make that land drop, obviously he's just a 1/1 first strike for that turn... Which is pretty scrawny.

Also, I wouldn't play the full four Figure of Destiny. I think he should probably be a two-of at the most. He's really only good in the mid-to-late-game, so you basically only want to draw into him if your initial zeitgeist fails. I would cut him down to 2x and go up to 4 Chain Lightning.

Path to Exile seems a little suspect in the main-deck to me, but I suppose if you're willing to include any one card that doesn't deal damage, it should probably be this one. Also, I guess it frees up slots in your sideboard.

Also, if you only play 4 legit Mountains, I agree that 3 Fireblast seems a little greedy. I might cut one or two fetches for more Plateau/ basic Mountain. Especially since if I was you I would cut Geopede altogether.

That's my two cents.

[Sevryn]

The extended Boros Deck Wins lists are basically R/w Sligh with mad landfall abuse. For reference, here's a good list:


4 Goblin Guide
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Plated Geopede
4 Steppe Lynx

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
3 Path to Exile
4 Searing Blaze
3 Shard Volley
4 Zektar Shrine Expedition

4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn


This deck is capable of turn 3 wins in EXTENDED. The landbase lets you do amazing things... example hand:

Ghost Quarter, Flagstones of Trokair, Arid Mesa, Steppe Lynx, Plated Geopede, Zektar Shrine Expedition, Lightning Bolt

t1: play Flagstones, cast Lynx
t2: play Mesa (landfall), fetch Sacred Foundry (landfall), cast Geopede, swing 4
t3: cast Shrine, play Ghost Quarter (landfall), destroy Flagstones with Ghost Quarter (2x Landfall), sac Shrine, swing 20, cast Bolt

Yea, 27 damage by turn 3 from a pure Agro deck in Extended. This deck averages a turn 4 kill, with maybe 10-15% turn 3.


Obviously, Legacy has some toys to play with. The Ravnica duals can be replaced with Plateaus. Fireblast can join the burn suite, as well as Chain Lightning if desired (note, Shard Volley has decent synergy with Flagstones). More can likely be done, and maybe should be in a different thread, but this deck feels very sligh to me.

[Gocho]

For reference, when Steppe Lynx was printed, a Boros deck makes some successful TOP8 here in Spain in our regional tournaments.

Final Tournament of the Madrid Legacy League 08-09 (best 28 players from Madrid):
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29998

2º tournament of the Extremadura Legacy League 09-10:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30321

I don't like some card choices, but both decks worked fine.
If I'ld play Boros, I will play something like this:

Suicide Boros:
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jotûn Grunt

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Free slots

4 Plateau
2 Mountain
14 Red Fetch

But If I'm going to play an Aggro deck that want to win in the first 4th turns, I'll prefer to play some Naya Sligh with Nacatl, and only add Reliquary Knight and Tarmogoyf if I want to get to mid/lategame.

[JohnnyCage]

I whole heartily agree. I don't think splashing a color will solve any of the decks issues. The deck is only going to be weakened by splashing and opening the deck up to the mana denial package of merfolk. Counterbalance isn't a bad match up when you have a fast clock unearth creatures and ccs that can't be hit. They only have so many turns to set a balance soft lock and then they can start playing goyfs. The truth is 3 sphere and chalice hurt a lot more then balance. I still feel sligh is still a viable deck in the right meta. I played ant for a long time. Average turn is turn two or three and the deck needs around thirteen life to go off for sure. With two damage spells and a blast you can win the matchup. Not easy still but doable

[overseer1234]

Allright, I did some testing with the following list:

4x Blood Knight
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Goblin Guide
4x Figure of Destiny

3x Genju of the Spires

4x Fireblast
3x Price of progress
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning
4x Magma Jet

14x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills

4x Chain Lightning

Sideboard
4x Pyrostatic pillar
3x tormod's crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Shattering Spree

And I have to say that I'm very happy with how it preforms.

Most agro matchup's are verry good (lavamancer realy shine's here, and blood knights first strike kind of rocks in combination with instant burn+lavamancer.). Just try not to be to trigger happy with your burn, as it's hard to keep pressure when you've burned up your hand.
(And PoP is really lol against zoo, since they have like so much nonbasic's it's not even funny)

Also Genyu is a house against crontroll, drop it on turn 1 and see their faces. This guy really puts on a clock and unlike ball lightning sticks around pretty long (barring STP/Path and K-Grip), same goes for figure.

But combo is a really pest, Okay the bolt, bolt, blast plan is cute when you pull it off (you need 3 cards and they need to go to 10...), so pillar, blast, and crypt do their job (pillar make's ad nauseam really scary, blast for their bounce/mystical) and crypt for the IGG plan)

Ichorid became harder with mogg fanatic being less viable, but this is also stil doable since you can bolt your own creature's, and without bridges blood knight becomes a nightmare).

The problem's are chalice and sphere's and that's where the spree come's in, since against counterbalance you only need to make sure you have enough men down (or genyu and a big figure) to get there before they get the counterbalance lock. (countering rift bolt, and fireblast also is pretty hard for them without their hard counter so burning them out still works sometimes)

[JohnnyCage]

Keep in mind the damage damage blast isn't hard to get. Almost everything in this deck including guide is fast damage and they still have trouble at eleven life just as ten. Ant isn't unwinnable in any means. Ichorid depending on the version isn't terrible. This heavily depends on the varient of sligh as does the ant match but creatures that sac themselves such as hellspark really shine here. I don't know how to feel about blood knight. If your meta is pro bant or pro thresh he seems ok. Also white weenie lol if that's still a deck that anyone actually plays. But being pro swords isn't enough. All our threats are fast damage and our opponent will want to swords. So playing four cards the negate that just distributes where they go. The strategy of pro white as showed from mono black back in the day was to run so many pro white creatures it was completely negated. We have no such option and when I tested blood knight I was underwhelmed. Sorry if there are typos or what not I'm using my phone while working lol and it doesn't show me the whole screen.

[JohnnyCage]

What happened to this thread. This deck is viable and deserves some attention come on people let's optimize the list.

[kicks_422]

Forked Bolt from ROE is a very good card for Sligh. You might want to check that out.

[Lammina]

Forked Bolt from ROE is a very good card for Sligh. You might want to check that out.

Sounds worst than Shock...

[kicks_422]

Whoops, sorcery? Never mind then.

I just have to say that there probably isn't anything you could do with Sligh anymore, esecially with mono-red. It's just a collection of the most efficient red weenies and burn spells. You really can't do much to make it better, just hope for meta shifts where it could be a good choice.

[slylie]

Whoops, sorcery? Never mind then.

I just have to say that there probably isn't anything you could do with Sligh anymore, esecially with mono-red. It's just a collection of the most efficient red weenies and burn spells. You really can't do much to make it better, just hope for meta shifts where it could be a good choice.

haha yes I had posted how it is much better than shock, but then realized it was a sorcery. Even as an instant it wouldn't be that great, tho.

[overseer1234]

that dragon level up thingy that levels up for R and it's a 2-drop might work out okay (i mean that thing that can become a 8/8 flying trample with firebreathing)...

I mean, together with figure of destiny it give's you a hell of a good chance to still win if the game goes long...
It might be to slow, bit I remember everybody saying the same about figure of destiny and he seams to work out just fine.

[Combo Winter]

I propose a black splash as not only is it very powerful its sets you apart from the zoo decks in that you can do things they can't pure card advantage. Also i think that confidant works within the confines of a sligh deck because its very good late game as well as early game.

4 goblin guide
4 lavamancer
4 figure of destiny
4 confidant
4 plated geoped

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 riftbolt
4 pop
4 fireblast

12 red fetchs
4 badlands
4 mountain

Notice the lack of frills such as magma jet or hellspark elemental who have a terrible mana to damage ratio. I think that sligh deck would easily be one of the fastest aggro legacy decks as it outpaces zoo by a half turn. I think that this list gives a valid reason to leave goyf at home as it plays a 2 drop in geoped that is a 5/5 on turn 3 and confidant is a far better card than the reactive quasli pridemage for red aggro.

[Jon Stewart]

Sorry, I've been in new york the past month and haven't had much chance to play or post here.

Has anyone tried searing blaze in the deck.

Also, I was getting sick of playing a pure burn and haste version of sligh. The deck does great but every game feels exactly the same and it just stopped being fun after a bit. :frown:

So I kind of feel like trying a slower more creature focused version of the deck.

What are some ideas you guys have for solid creatures to try out in the deck?

I think Hellspark Elemental is still worth playing, and Keldon Marauders maybe as well.

I've heard people suggest Blood Knight and Figure of Destiny, and I've always loved Jackal Pup.

And of course, if I splash, both Steppe Lynx and Goyf are options.

Anything else I missed?

[overseer1234]

well, as I really like Jackal pup, it's been made pretty obsolete by goblin guide, and figure of destiny (whom both replace mog fanatic and jackal pup in my own build)

Keldon marauders might be a good call, but I thing that you'll end up playing your hasy creature+burn.dec but with les hasty creatures.....

Blood knight seems to be the best option in the 2-drop slot, an genyu who's essentially the deck's (4)3-drop, depending in when you drop and activate him.

But Kargan Dragonlord seems like the next thing that I'm going to test in the deck for the 2-drop slot

There just aren't a lot of mono red creature's that make the cut these days (tatermunge maniac if you don't like goblin guide) and obviously grim lavamancer is still totaly nuts.

Maybe magus of the scroll could be fit in if you really need more pinging stuff...



Other than that I don't thing there's a lot of choice (unless you want more 3-drop's but I wouldn't go to far on that)

[yuanshi23]

Hey guys, I've been playing Sligh for a while in Legacy, and I just wanted a few tips.

I'm going to a tournament in the beginning of May that has a lot of aggro in the meta. There's also a bit of control, and 1-2 combo like ANT and Belcher. My question is, what should my sideboard be like against an aggro heavy meta that consists of a lot of zoo, goblins, etc., along with 1-2 control decks such as countertop and merfolk, and last with a few combo decks? I'm talking about a 60% dominance of aggro decks, especially zoo.

[Jon Stewart]

Are you playing a build similar to the one in the OP (tons of hasty creatures that don't stick around?).

If so, I would play 4 Flamebreak in the sideboard and 4 Searing Blaze, also maybe throw in some Pyroclasms or that new 2R/2G cc Pyroclasm for 3.

There is also an older card that I forgot the name of that's awesome. It was basically...

1R Sorcery

Deal 1 damage to each creature and player.

You may pay an additional 2 mana as you cast this spell. If you do, deal 4 damage to each creature and player instead.

That card could be sweet in the board.

You could even consider cutting out creatures completely and playing burn so that you don't have to worry about blockers.

[yuanshi23]

I've been running a list similar to the bread and butter and Pablo Diaz's list. The 20 creatures, 20 spells, and 20 lands formula. I'm running 4 figure of destiny, 4 goblin guides, 3 ball lightning, 4 lavamancers, 4 hellspark elementals, and the bread and butter nukes. I had pyroclasms and fallouts in my SB, but I really don't know if that's enough for that kind of meta. I know the fallouts are god against merfolk, but against zoo, I'm not sure.

[troopatroop]

11 Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer

28 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Riftbolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Terminate
2 Sulfuric Vortex

21 Lands
4 Wasteland
10 Red Fetches
4 Badlands
3 Mountain

SB:
4 Deathmark
1 Terminate
4 Planar Void
5 Stormcombohate... of some kind

Searing Blaze seems like a card that could turn the Zoo matchup around. Dark Confidant is Good, and all cards have a great damage to cost ratio. I don't really know if Sulfuric Vortex is that great, but it seems like Control decks and Bant are becoming more popular. I think Sligh can be good in the right metas, specifically ones without Counter-Top.

[overseer1234]

Hey guys, I've been playing Sligh for a while in Legacy, and I just wanted a few tips.

I'm going to a tournament in the beginning of May that has a lot of aggro in the meta. There's also a bit of control, and 1-2 combo like ANT and Belcher. My question is, what should my sideboard be like against an aggro heavy meta that consists of a lot of zoo, goblins, etc., along with 1-2 control decks such as countertop and merfolk, and last with a few combo decks? I'm talking about a 60% dominance of aggro decks, especially zoo.

Well for the zoo matchup playing price pf progress make's et pretty easy to race since we run more burn then they do (since they started running path to exile).

Other than that I never really had that much trouble with (tribal)agro decks since blood knight (this is where pro white and first strike shines)+ grim lavamancer/burn make's it pretty easy to just flatout kill everything without card disadvantage...

For the CB matchup a bunch of red elemental blast's/pyroblast should help, as would pyrostatic pillar (brainstorming and pondering will realy start to hurt...) and those are also good against combo (just blasting when they want to bounce the pillar should do the trick...). You could maybe chalice if you expect a lot of combo.

Other then that I usually run like a couple of T.crypt's for the GY matchups, but running some kind of cheap sweeper could also help here AND it also helps solving your agro problem.

[kinda]

Anyone have an opinion on the new card "kiln fiend"? He'll have to be sided out on the draw...but it still looks like it has the potential to be absolutely nuts...I mean goldfishing t3 wins is pretty easy if you get him in your opening grip.

1 Drops and Kiln Fiend: 8-12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
Spark elemental or grim lava?

3+ damage for 1 or less mana instnats or sorceries: 20
4x lightning bolt
4x lava spike
4x chain lightning
4x fireblast
4x either lava dart or the sac a land bolt thing...

Land: 20-23 mountain...wasteland will hurt us too much.

Other:
Like...pop and searing blaze?

Edit:

List I tested that seemed ok:

Creatures: 8
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend

instnats or sorceries: 30
4x lightning bolt
4x lava spike
4x chain lightning
4x fireblast
4x lava dart
4x Rift Bolt
3x Burst Lightning (should probably be grim)
3x Price of Progress

Land: 22

SB:
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Flamebreak
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Mindbreak Trap

[kicks_422]

I tried out Sligh with Kiln Fiend. Seriously, that card is so awesome. It's like a distributable Furnace of Rath, with your burn spells clearing the way of blockers AND getting lots of damage in one attack.

I might just rebuild this for nostalgia.

[Combo Winter]

Kiln fiend is intresting im not sure how much better it is than the land fall guys but he will be pretty big when unblocked. Here is what my initial kiln version looks like

4 reckless charge/ lava dart
4 bolt
4 chain lightining
4 fireblast
3 fling
4 magma jet

4 kiln fiend
2 countryside crusher
4 lavamancer
4 jackle pup( no figure of destiny you wanna use all your mana on spells)
4 goblin guide

3 barbarian ring( cut these for mountains if you play dart over reckless charge)
8 fetch
8 mountain

[overseer1234]

Kiln fiend makes every burn spell look like a Searing Blaze with it's landfall triggered, but then for less mana + bonus damage, I'd definitely give this guy the blood knight spot in my build.

Owh, and the fact that you're limited to about 1 land a turn (barring double fetch) makes it easier to ramp up this guy than the other landfall guy's (suspend rift bolt, and then go double bolt+fireblast sounds really ugly)

[Jon Stewart]

Kiln Field is FANTASTIC.

It lets you to attack for between 7-10 damage on the third turn all while burning out a blocker thanks to 1cc Burn Spells, Fireblast and Rift Bolt. It also means the deck needs to minimize the number of creatures it plays and maximize the number of sorceries/instants it plays, taking the deck in a radically different direction.

//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

2 Shard Volley
2 Magma Jet
2 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
2 Flame Rift

//Mana
19 Mountain

[overseer1234]

Kiln Field is FANTASTIC.

It also means the deck needs to minimize the number of creatures it plays and maximize the number of sorceries/instants.

Thus maybe a build like this makes sense...

//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
14 Cards (Mountain, Grim Lavamancer, Shard Volley Price of Progress, Searing Blaze, Flame Rift. Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders are all options)

//Mana
18 Land

// Sample Sideboard
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Price of Progress
2 Blood Moon

My 14 cards:
4 Grim Lavamancer (cut 4 mountain for 4 fetch)
3 Genyu of the Spire's (it's this deck's 3-drop, and I don't like any of the other elementals)
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress

Also I don't like lava spike maindecked... since it can't be used to clear the board for your fiend (same goes for Price of Progress, but I've won more game's on the back of price of progress then on lava spike...)
So I would kick those for figure of destiny for a better midgame

[Jon Stewart]

Lava Spikes and 1cc Sorceries and Instants bring this deck's ability to win on turn three even higher (even when you don't have Fireblast in your hand) which is why I love such efficent burn spells. Since 16 (and probably more) of your burn spells already can damage creatures, I don't feel that it's a big issue that four do not.

Genju of the Spires seems really cool especially if you're clearing away blockers. I'll work on grabbing two copies and trying it. I always thought of it as a 4cc Ball Lightning without trample that manages to stay in play which is why I've been somewhat iffy on the card.

Have you played the card? How good has it been for you?

I've tried playing Figure of Destiny and hadn't liked it much at all. I deeply dislike that you have to sink five mana (three turns worth of mana) into the card before it becomes even a somewhat relevent threat. And a single piece of removal neutralizes all that investment. If you don't sink five mana into the card, then there are about a dozen other red creatures that are strictly more efficent than Figure. I certainly wouldn't play it in a build that is trying to maximize the number of sorceries and instants it plays.

[overseer1234]

Lava Spikes and 1cc Sorceries and Instants bring this deck's ability to win on turn three even higher (even when you don't have Fireblast in your hand) which is why I love such efficient burn spells. Since 16 (and probably more) of your burn spells already can damage creatures, I don't feel that it's a big issue that four do not.
I find Price of progress better, since it's mostly a finisher with or without other cards to support it


Genju of the Spires seems really cool especially if you're clearing away blockers. I'll work on grabbing two copies and trying it. I always thought of it as a 4cc Ball Lightning without trample that manages to stay in play which is why I've been somewhat iffy on the card.

Have you played the card? How good has it been for you?

Well that's basically how you play sligh: use burn mainly to clear away blockers, and eventually for the dome to get those last points of damage through... Ive always loved genju since you can use 1 spare mana and then get a ball lightning every turn than keep on comming backy unless they Path/plow (okay and when you are short on land).

Also good to have around if the game goes long.


I've tried playing Figure of Destiny and hadn't liked it much at all. I deeply dislike that you have to sink five mana (three turns worth of mana) into the card before it becomes even a somewhat relevent threat. And a single piece of removal neutralizes all that investment. If you don't sink five mana into the card, then there are about a dozen other red creatures that are strictly more efficent than Figure. I certainly wouldn't play it in a build that is trying to maximize the number of sorceries and instants it plays.

Well I play it because I'm not to triggerhappy with my burn and like it as a cos effective creature that can make the difference when the game goes long, or just a fatty and use my burn to make sure he gets there.

[Angelfire]

Manamorphose is a guaranteed 4 of in Sligh. It increases deck density (and thus card quality) and is awesome with Kiln Fiend. It is bonus "food" if you are running Grim Lavamancer as well. It also has essentially no drawback, its not a liability or a bad topdeck (now that manaburn is gone).

My List
//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

//Burn
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze

//Mana
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

[overseer1234]

Manamorphose is a guaranteed 4 of in Sligh.

Wut? o_O

[Jon Stewart]

Manamorphose is a FANTASTIC suggestion. Good call. I can't believe I forgot about the card. I hope you don't mind that I update my OP to include the card.

[kicks_422]

Wut? - second'd. You don't want to have to guess what you'd draw... You need to make decisions based on whether you have a burn spell, creature, or nothing in your hand. Manamorphose just for Kin Fiend pump and Lavamancer fodder is bad. Please just play a burn spell in place of it.

[Angelfire]

Wut? - second'd. You don't want to have to guess what you'd draw... You need to make decisions based on whether you have a burn spell, creature, or nothing in your hand. Manamorphose just for Kin Fiend pump and Lavamancer fodder is bad. Please just play a burn spell in place of it.

Guess what you are gonna draw? Like every card you draw every turn? If you topdeck a manamorphose it is hardly different than topdecking the card below it (unless you need an instant that can't be played right now).

It doesn't "take the slot" of a burn spell because it makes it so you are essentially playing a 56 card deck (more likely to draw the cards you want) instead of having to run the second class burn spells. The pump of Kiln Fiend and food for Grim Lavamancer is just icing on the cake. If you don't like Manamorphose you clearly don't understand probability. What is the drawback again? In 100 matches, Manamorphose would be the deciding factor in more matches than any other card you could put in that slot.

[overpowered]

I'm with Angelfire on this one. Manamorphose is an amazing card that can simply turn into +3 damage with Kiln Fiend, can help your lavamancer, and assists in drawing more potent spells. It makes your deck more consistant.

It was always one of my favorite cards in Belcher because of the built-in mana + card parity. Belcher runs it because it thins the deck out, not because it fixes colors. The same reason that they run Street Wraith.

Passing up Manamorphose is gimping your deck.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I don't see how Manamorphose is even up for debate. I was a fan of it in burn due to it's ability to let you play a 56 card deck, even when mana burn was still around. Now, especially given the synergy it has with both Kiln Fiend and Grim Lavamancer, it's an automatic four of.

I updated my opening post.

This is my current list, does anyone here see any issues with it at all?

//Mana
18 Mountain

//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast

2 Shard Volley
2 Searing Blaze
3 Price of Progress

Searing Blaze, Price of Progress and Fireblast/Shard Volley have very occasionally backfired on me. But everything else has been incredibly good, 100% of the time. And PoP, Shard Volley, Fireblast and Searing Blaze when they do work (they almost always do), are insanely powerful. But I could see Magma Jet filling in for any of those cards that you are uncomfortable with.

I would absolutely be playing Magma Jet myself if it weren't for the fact that almost no one plays 1 toughness and 2 toughness creatures anymore. Lets just call it the Goyf effect, but nowadays, I rarely see anything with a toughness less than 3, 4, or 5. Is it too much to ask that Wizard print a 1cc burn spell that says, Deal 2 damage to target player or 5 damage to target creature and 2 damage to yourself. Probably. :(

[Tao]

Manamorphose is not as good as described here. It might be worth to play with Kiln Fiend, but it certainly does not make you play a 56 card deck. You can't cycle it on turn 2 if you have no 2nd land and in the lategame it is much worse than a drawn burn spell because it might draw a land.

[Angelfire]

Manamorphose is not as good as described here. It might be worth to play with Kiln Fiend, but it certainly does not make you play a 56 card deck. You can't cycle it on turn 2 if you have no 2nd land and in the lategame it is much worse than a drawn burn spell because it might draw a land.

Give me a scenario where you have only one land, but a second rate burn spell would save you. They are very rare. A deck playing Manamorphose is more consistent than a deck that does not play it, so your "its a bad topdeck" argument is moot. Not to mention when you topdeck Manamorphose, it is almost like you topdecked the card below it, unless you need an instant that you can't play right then.

[overseer1234]

Manamorphose is not as good as described here. It might be worth to play with Kiln Fiend, but it certainly does not make you play a 56 card deck. You can't cycle it on turn 2 if you have no 2nd land and in the lategame it is much worse than a drawn burn spell because it might draw a land.

This.


And if you really need draw selection then play freaking sensei's divining top or magma jet, at least the last one does something to fix your topdeck and fix your draw for the next 2 turns, or at least make sure you skip 2 turns of drawing crap with it.

Cantrip's that don't do something relevant on their own are just...... bad

[kicks_422]

Oh, wow. This thread is bad. Such a shame that it's about one of my favorite decks of all time.

[Jon Stewart]

All the reasons being given against Manamorphose here don't make sense.

Have you played it? I have. And I have never once regretted it. It costs 0 mana to cast, and it draws you a card, and it's an instant. Plus it fills your yard for Lavamancer, and pumps you Fiend +3/+0. You can't even get mana burned with it.

Lets run through the two arguments offered up against Manmorphose (that it might draw you a land and that its unplayable if you are stuck at one land) and go through why mathematically, neither argument makes any sense.

The argument that it might draw you a land doesn't apply at all. In a 60 card deck, I always opted to play 19 land. But with a 56 card deck (ie, a deck with 4 Manamorphose), I opt to play 56 land. You should do the same. It's pretty much the exact same proportion of land to nonland. The odds of you drawing a third land off of Manamorphose in a deck with 18 land, are nearly the same the odds of that Manamorphose itself being a third land in the first place in a deck with 19 lands. This brings me to the next point.

The argument that it costs two mana and thus sucks if you don't have a second land, would only make sense if this deck is playing absoultely nothing that costs more than 1 mana. But every build plays 2cc cards (and subpar ones at that), and it does so because the deck is out of 1cc cards that are worth playing. Thus, the idea this "con" would apply regardless of whatever card you opt to run in it's place, because as we already determined all the good 1cc sorcery/instant burn spells are already being played. There is nothing left to look at that's actually decent until you get to 2cc.

[troopatroop]

Manamorphose is fine with Kiln Fiend, I can get behind that. I've always thought Sensei's Divining top to be bad news in Burn decks. It doesn't generate actual card advantage, only card quality. I'd sooner play Magma Jet, at least that actually does something.

[Angelfire]

And if you really need draw selection then play freaking sensei's divining top or magma jet, at least the last one does something to fix your topdeck and fix your draw for the next 2 turns, or at least make sure you skip 2 turns of drawing crap with it.

Cantrip's that don't do something relevant on their own are just...... bad

Manamorphose is not trying to create a Top or Magma Jet effect (both of which are bad in this deck, due to their slowness) and it costs 0 total mana, so it is unlike every other cantrip. Oh and its not relevant to give Kiln Fiend +3/+0 for no mana or card loss, grant food for Lavamancer, and increase the density/quality of your deck?

Posts that suggest that Manamorphose not be included in Kiln Fiend Sligh show that you don't understand math or logic, so please stop posting in this thread.

[Combo Winter]

I think manamorphase is terrible in sligh lava dart is far better than it with or without a kiln fiend on the board. The reason i initially thought that kiln fiend is worse than the landfall guy is that it warps the deck into a bad version of burn if you wanna play enough spells to make it decent. Like it just weakens your zoo matchup to not have blockers than effect combat as plated geoped can be a a 3/3 first striker on defense. Also look at the genral power per card in the 2 decklists. I think that the addition of kiln fiend weakens the zoo matchup as you have less relevent blockers and kiln fiend is terrible on the attack when your opponent has path and burn. Also i feel that conditionally dead cards like searing blaze and terminate don't have a place in sligh.

Look at the relitive power of the decklists:

18 Mountain

//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast

2 Shard Volley
2 Searing Blaze
3 Price of Progress

VS

4 confidant
4 lavamancer
4 goblin guide
4 figure of destiny
4 plated geoped/keldon marauders

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 pop
4 fireblast
4 riftbolt

12 fetch
4 badlands
4 mountain

I think the change just removes some of the best cards and replaces them with worse spells and makes the much much worse when your kiln fiend gets countered or stped or burnt.

[Combo Winter]

Edit: double post

[Koby]

Winnar! Lava Dart is much better suited in this slot.

I would also suggest Fling, but that's even more situational than Manamorphese; so I'd recommend against it. Is Reckless Charge suited for this deck? Are there more creatures we can squeeze out of this archetype to make it playable?

[Angelfire]

Winnar! Lava Dart is much better suited in this slot.

I would also suggest Fling, but that's even more situational than Manamorphese; so I'd recommend against it. Is Reckless Charge suited for this deck? Are there more creatures we can squeeze out of this archetype to make it playable?

Lava Dart is pretty mediocre and in no way better than Manamorphose in "that slot". Fling is a decent card, but got significantly worse with no "Damage on the stack tricks anymore"

Reckless Charge means you need to play more creatures to make it work consistently and then you are running less burn spells for Kiln Fiend and you open yourself up to 2 for 1's (flashback aside).

In regards to the post above this one: Kiln Fiend functions as nearly a Phage for 2 mana. One uncontested swing is usually gg, all while not sacrificing card advantage. If they deal with Kiln Fiend you are simply running a burn deck (with a few other creatures).

[JohnnyCage]

Let's play a game. Everybody who likes manamorphose post your rating and everybody who doesn't post that you don't with your rating. I do agree with lava dart being in the deck but not for the slot of our cantrip. So I like both. Btw if it wasn't a free cantrip that pumped your dude and drew you into a land. It woulda just been the land. So I will start. I like manamorphose...1864 dci eternal .

[Koby]

Compare Lava Dart vs. Manamorphose:

Lava Dart:
- 1 mana cost
- 2 "spells"
- removes blockers

Manamorphose:
- 0 mana cost
- Cycles

If the aim is to abuse Kiln Fiend for maximum effect, Lava Dart wins that case. It can remove a blocker (even X/2s) and pump for 6 power, while Manamorphose just digs. If I sleeved up this deck, I would put Lava Dart in over Manamorphose everyday of the week.

[troopatroop]

But Manamorphose can be 2 spells, it just isn't always. Lava Dart is cute, but rarely effective, especially in modern Legacy. A single land can be a big deal. If you're flashing it back just to throw it at your opponent and make kiln fiend bigger... that just seems bad. Manamorphose for me, I've no idea what my eternal rating is right now.

Also, this deck needs Wasteland. Wasteland is really good in Sligh, giving you an extra turn to attack. Is 16 mountains 4 Wasteland enough red sources you think?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Let's play a game. Everybody who likes manamorphose post your rating and everybody who doesn't post that you don't with your rating. I like manamorphose...1864 dci eternal .


My rating.... which granted use to be higher is only 1847


I won gencon a couple years back and for a while I was over 1900

How about we work on deck construction instead of E-peen construction?

Manamorphose is good because it doesn't need Kiln Fiend to be good, it fills the graveyard and thins your deck. The downside is that it is counterable, and then isn't "free." But the only way someone is ever going to counter it is if they have CB/Top out and then you're most likely screwed either way. Lava Dart is extremely narrow and relies on Kiln Fiend to be good. No one would run it if it weren't for the synergy with Kiln Fiend, but as the deck plays around 10 creatures anyway you're more than likely going to get him killed by StP or random burn, so he isn't worth playing worse than average cards for.

Lava Dart makes you sac a land to kill a 2 toughness creature, which is hardly impressive. Especially in a deck that needs to keep lands for Fireblasts...

[JohnnyCage]

Really pheonix? Your gonna be that guy at the party. And the deck needs both cards because if sligh goes anywhere near mid game its game over. And I was pointing out the right choices for the deck. The deck always has three lands from my testing and I only run blast as a three of. Dart is actually a fair card depending on the meta. That's the reason I include it in my "open" slots. Pheonix we are suppose to be cool. You don't flame bros man. We fuckin made folk what it is. Lol.

[troopatroop]

he has a point, bragging about your dci rating is extremely vain.

Meanwhile, opinions on Wasteland? Is it budget reasons that people don't like it?

[JohnnyCage]

he has a point, bragging about your dci rating is extremely vain.

Meanwhile, opinions on Wasteland? Is it budget reasons that people don't like it?

Vain for good reason.

And to answer your question. Can you do me a favor real quick and read wasteland. Does it say mountain? Is it only really effective turn three? Does it lessen by two damage from price of progress? Please try next time to look at the list and think of synergy.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Really pheonix? Your gonna be that guy at the party. And the deck needs both cards because if sligh goes anywhere near mid game its game over. And I was pointing out the right choices for the deck. The deck always has three lands from my testing and I only run blast as a three of. Dart is actually a fair card depending on the meta. That's the reason I include it in my "open" slots. Pheonix we are suppose to be cool. You don't flame bros man. We fuckin made folk what it is. Lol.

Running blast x 3 gives you enough mountains to probably run Lava Dart, but 4x Lava Dart seems pretty awful still. You are only ever going to flash 1 back, so a 2 or 3-of is probably still enough. If your plan of playing a bunch of spells and then swinging with Kiln fiend for the win falls through to a Path, Burn, StP, smother, even a well timed Vendillian Clique you don't want to be left with absolutely nothing.


And the only thing bragging does is make you a public enemy, it doesn't make people think your decisions are the right ones. Some people are very good and play fun decks, some people are very bad and still win with things because the things are easy to pilot (or they dumped enough money into a deck to pull out a few wins). Some good people don't have the time to play that much. I know for a fact you're a good enough player and smart enough deck designer/metagamer to make a better argument than "My DCI is higher, therefore do as I say."

There has been enough arrogance on the Source this year.

[troopatroop]

Vain for good reason.

And to answer your question. Can you do me a favor real quick and read wasteland. Does it say mountain? Is it only really effective turn three? Does it lessen by two damage from price of progress? Please try next time to look at the list and think of synergy.

The easiest way to win a game of Magic is manascrew. Wasteland provides free wins over time, without fail. The fact that it reverses the game back a turn, and gives your creatures a free attack is gravy. Sometimes the pro's outweigh the con's. You can't just cite the minor faults without looking at the big picture. Wasteland is a free LD spell. I don't care if it makes PoP a bit smaller, because PoP probably still has enough power in it to win the game anyways. I'm going to test it both ways, as opposed to making assumptions.

[Jon Stewart]

Lol, I think he just meant it in good fun.

I agree with you Pheonix. Lava Dart isn't worthwhile in the deck nowadays. Back when Goblins was the top aggro deck in the format, Lava Dart would've been incredible. But now that 90% of legacy creatures have a butt of 3 or more, neither Lava Dart nor Magma Jet have fared well.

Kiln Fiend is a fantastic creature, but you don't want to run inferior cards to support him in part because a.) you can only play 4 copies, b.) many decks play creature removal c.) he doesn't need the help, Fiend attacks for 7 to 10 damage for the win on turn 3 without lava dart, there is little to be gained from playing it to improve a card that is already broken in half if it actually hits. The cards that are being played are all cards that I still see burn decks play regularly (yes, I see players play Manamorphose in burn to good effect and have played the card myself back when I played burn), Lava Dart isn't one of them these days.

Wasteland is a good card. But when playing the deck, there are many games I win well before I ever see a third land. Turn 2 and turn 3, you need to play 2 Lightning Bolt equivalents both turns to be able to win even if one of them gets countered. And then you want to sac those two lands to Fireblast for finish the game. Wasteland doesn't let you do any of that unfortunately. If you want to play Wasteland, I would make sure you're playing 18 mountains along side it. You could try the list in the opening post, but replacing the two Searing Blaze with Wasteland if you would like.

[troopatroop]

Searing Blaze is the reason I'm going to play this deck, I'd never cut it. I'd cut Shard Volley tho.

[JohnnyCage]

Running blast x 3 gives you enough mountains to probably run Lava Dart, but 4x Lava Dart seems pretty awful still. You are only ever going to flash 1 back, so a 2 or 3-of is probably still enough. If your plan of playing a bunch of spells and then swinging with Kiln fiend for the win falls through to a Path, Burn, StP, smother, even a well timed Vendillian Clique you don't want to be left with absolutely nothing.


And the only thing bragging does is make you a public enemy, it doesn't make people think your decisions are the right ones. Some people are very good and play fun decks, some people are very bad and still win with things because the things are easy to pilot (or they dumped enough money into a deck to pull out a few wins). Some good people don't have the time to play that much. I know for a fact you're a good enough player and smart enough deck designer/metagamer to make a better argument than "My DCI is higher, therefore do as I say."

There has been enough arrogance on the Source this year.

I love ya pheonix lol. But our meta has been more gobs tempo and uw tempo where dart is very good. It's still only a three of. I do agree about seering btw. Another reason waste makes the deck a sad panda.

[overpowered]

Before this thread degenerates further with a debate about Wasteland's usefulness in Legacy Sligh, let's take one last look and finish the discussion on Manamorphose once and for all. This will be a lengthy post, and for frame of reference, I will be referring to the deck listed in post #84, so please take that into account and excuse my wall of text:

Facts:
Lava Dart essentially costs 1 land. Adds 1 card to your graveyard and nets two damage to the opponent. It helps Kiln Fiend by adding +6/+0. On the other hand, Manamorphose essentially costs 0 mana and no lands. Adds 1 card to your hand, 1 card to your graveyard and nets 0 damage to the opponent. It helps Kiln Fiend by adding +3/+0.

Opinion:
If these were the only determining factors, Lava Dart would win hands down. There are other factors however, such as the ratio of land:spells left in your library. So let's take that into account with our next assessment.

Supplementary Determining Factors:
Lava Dart remains as described above. Manamorphose becomes: +3/+0 to Kiln Fiend, adds 1 card to your graveyard, costs 0 mana and (in a deck with 18 land) has a 44% chance to draw a spell, a 25% chance to draw a creature, and a 31% chance to draw a land. That's a 69% chance to draw a non-land card. The non-land, non-creature (44%) card has a significant chance (~61% chance) of being a spell that will deal 3 or more damage. That doesn't include Price of Progress, Searing Blaze or Manamorphose, as they do nothing on their own. So playing the percentages, in 44% of draws from Manamorphose, you will draw a spell. In 61% of those draws concluding in a spell being drawn, you will draw a spell with an effect significantly better than Lava Dart. In the other 39%, you will draw Price, Searing Blaze or Manamorphose (I counted them as 0 damage to better exemplify the power level of Manamorphose). In the 56% of draws from Manamorphose that don't conclude in a spell being drawn, you will draw a land or a creature.

Note: Keldon Marauders can be seen as having an effect equivalent to Lava Dart, but have been excluded from the "burn spell" percentages.

Opinion:
In many games, I would rather see Manamorphose than Lava Dart, as the former has a higher chance to draw me into a more threatening card, while the latter is simply an underwhelming threat in itself. This is up for debate but ultimately dictated by personal preference. Hopefully, I have convinced many people of the benefits of Manamorphose, and what it offers to the deck versus what Lava Dart offers the deck. Again, in many match-ups I think that Manamorphose will take priority over Lava Dart.

Conclusion:
This is a reasonable post, backed with percentages as determined from the deck posted in #84. In the future, arguments FOR Lava Dart could be backed up by percentages of one or two toughness creatures in popular decks, citing misrepresentations of the importance of land in Sligh, and reasons why running it could be considered a more effective solution in light of the above evidence. I thank you for reading, and hope that this has cleared the air of all arguments concerning either card.

(edit) PS: Saying "well X, Y and Z are big in my meta, so I run Lava Dart" adds nothing to the discussion other than stating what is big in your meta. We should look at the deck on a card-only basis, with the absence of metagaming at all. Cases can be made for and against either card (or any card really) based on metagames. If you're looking for advice concerning certain cards in a specific environment, ask more specific questions and we can discuss them as a community. Generalized statements about "what's better?" should be referred to this post and any subsequent posts with advice or percentages. Thanks again.

[JohnnyCage]

But I wasn't saying run one over the other I run both. And a good deck always has meta slots so yes it is important to discuss mine since it makes dart warranted in my meta where as it wouldn't warrant in a different meta. I hope you understand how meta gaming is important for a tier two deck.

[JohnnyCage]

But I wasn't saying run one over the other I run both. And a good deck always has meta slots so yes it is important to discuss mine since it makes dart warranted in my meta where as it wouldn't warrant in a different meta. I hope you understand how meta gaming is important for a tier two deck.

[overpowered]

But I wasn't saying run one over the other I run both. And a good deck always has meta slots so yes it is important to discuss mine since it makes dart warranted in my meta where as it wouldn't warrant in a different meta. I hope you understand how meta gaming is important for a tier two deck.

Oh, absolutely. No doubt is metagaming important for any deck. Also, that wasn't directed at your post or anything... I just mean to ward off the inevitable swarm of mindless generalizations in response to mine. In trying to determine which card should be run over the other in a blind meta, without any knowledge of decks that will be there, I was hoping to make the case very clear. Definitely tailor decks to metas though whenever possible. It doesn't matter if your deck can beat every player in San Diego if you only compete in West Virginia. Just like it doesn't matter if 4x Ghostly Prison is good against aggro if everyone you play runs nothing but combo.

In my post, I'm trying to improve the base of the deck without taking any meta slots into account. I think that by getting a solid base down, it can be more easily determined what cards should come out and when. So again, no offense, as that was not directed at anyone, but more of a preventative measure.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I love ya pheonix lol. But our meta has been more gobs tempo and uw tempo where dart is very good. It's still only a three of. I do agree about seering btw. Another reason waste makes the deck a sad panda.

Actually we're like 50%+ Bant of some version, 20%ish Zoo, 10ish% goblins, and random others. UW Tempo has honestly been getting the pulp beaten out of it (ask graham or the other guy who plays it) by everything from zoo to countertop so I wouldn't run lavadart just for it.

Though there are plenty of Noble Hierarchs and a few bobs to get burned out, so I agree with you that you can run it, just not 4-of. Ever. Just too straining on mana and against all the Rhox it isn't really going to do much (I guess that + Searing isn't so bad on one, but still). 3ish would probably work pretty well.

You should post a list before the continuation of Lava Dart vs. Manamorphose continues though so people understand you are playing both.

[Jon Stewart]

Overpowered, that was an excellent post. There are a couple of probelms with the analysis but nothing major.

I think it would be interesting to do an analysis of...

Shard Volley vs. Lava Dart vs. Spark Elemental vs. Figure of Destiny vs. Jackal Pup

and

Keldon Marauders vs. Searing Blaze vs. Hellspark Elemental vs. Magma Jet

Lava Dart is clearly more flexible than Shard Volley but does less damage but I could see playing Lava Dart here if a meta has a lot of one casting cost creatures. The bigger question is if you're not better off just playing a one cc creature.

Searing Blaze is awesome against creature based decks but useless everywhere else whereas Keldon Marquders is okay there and fantastic everywhere else. However Marauders does it's damage over three turns and is not an instant/sorcery where as Blaze is immediate and deals with blockers. The other 2cc options seem less impressive than both.

[Combo Winter]

I think it is important to note that lava dart will not actively cost you a land in the early game as you will likely use it to take out a x/1 or go to the face 90% of the time in which case it waits in the yard. So to say as a card lava dart is always a better version of shock and a conditionally worse version of seal of fire as such it will never slow your kill unless you have 2 fireblasts + a dart And is equivalent to running wasteland or shard volley in terms of reducing your mountain count for fireblast.

My point that kiln fiend makes the deck worse in that you play a deck that has no late game because your strat is go all in on turn 3. To say that sligh has not late game means that you don't understand how red aggro decks are put together under the "philosophy of fire" sligh plan. Sligh has the one of the best late game plans because ifthe game goes long every topdeck goes to the face. It's like people are trying to make this deck into a deck that folds to removal and counters on kiln fiend. When normally removal and counters are bad vs sligh because it can just go to the face while they try to go one for one with you. Even thoughtseize(which is dead vs the version that plays 20 dudes) on kiln fiend on turn one can make a decent hand bad.

Also i think searing blaze that are dead vs our worst matchup combo so it should not be played because playing dead cards is terrible when you wanna win as fast as possible.

As for the guy who asked about eternal rating's eternal rating probably has little correlation with ones constructed skill please post your lifetime ptq top 8's and your GP/PT/Nats placing which in truth is far more indicative than a rating with little meaning as eternal. Its obvious that the level of play/deckbuiding at many local legacy events is that of fnm's. Not to mention roland chang who was vintage's champion used to play at neutral ground before it closed and his play level was below that of an average ptqer so I know eternal rating means very little.

[Jon Stewart]

You're wrong. If Kiln Fiend does get killed, you ARE playing a burn deck. This deck isn't playing any cards (other than Kiln Fiend) that burn decks don't play. Kiln Fiend getting countered or Thoughtseized is absolutley no different than some other burn card getting countered or Thoughtseized in a burn deck.

The only card in my whole list that burn decks wouldn't play is Lava Dart, and you're the one advocating to play that card, whereas I have been arguing that we should instead play a card that burn would play like Keldon Marauders or Shard Volley (because I don't see a whole lot of x/1 creatures running around in legacy).

Even if Kiln Fiend does eat an StP, that probably means that Lavamancer (or Goblin Guide) get to stick around and ping two life off of your opponent every turn till they die (unless your opponent luck sacked into several StP in their first couple of turns).

But if Kiln Fiend doesn't get killed, he basically doubles every burn card that you do play giving you ridiculous card advantage. You can kill your opponent on turn three with two-three cards in your hand to spare if Kiln Fiend does hit.

Basically, if you lose Fiend, you are playing a burn deck. If you keep him, even for just one turn, you kill your opponent usually that very same turn.

So why aren't you in favor of playing Fiend again?

[overpowered]

Considering that Keldon Marauders is one of my favorite cards, I think I'd like to look at the Marauders, Blaze, Hellspark and Jet argument... I'll be using deck #84 once again.

This may seem unfair, but I am going to exclude Magma Jet from the analysis. Since the deck runs 61% non-land cards, it can therefore be assumed that you'll draw one spell approximately every 1.6 cards. Since you have a greater than 50% chance of drawing a spell, it negates the benefit of playing scry instead of simply casting a stronger spell in its place. (see "Conclusion" for more reasoning behind this decision)

Data/Opinions:
So Keldon does 2 damage, over three turns, with a potential for 5 total damage. I can see how that seems underwhelming.
Searing Blaze does a total of 1 or 3 damage, instantly, and can elminate blockers.
Hellspark does 6 total damage over a course of two turns for a cost of 4 mana. Seems strong.

Keldon Marauders is generally not blocked, so therefore it gets the full 5 in for a cost of two mana to the sligh player, but allows the other deck another turn to establish. It also eliminates the element of surprise that Hellspark can achieve (not like it is blocked often anyway). It does nothing proactive to the opponent's blockers, which means that your Goblin Guides are still going to be met by bodies on their way to the opponent. I would say that Keldon Marauders, without haste, are lackluster but let's not be too hasty in discounting them entirely yet. One of the strongest ways that sligh can win is in the mid game, through damage:card ratio. Getting your "ball lightning" esque cards Path to Exiled, StP'd, Bolted, etc. injures the tempo of many burn decks. If we look at matches against non-combo decks, Keldon Marauders shines. If they bolt him, they still get 2 damage. If they block him, they still get two damage. If they choose not to block, they take a total of 5 damage. Many times on the play, with a power of 3, he will make it through to the opponent's body. I can't point to percentages, but there is not a significant number of ways to deal with him on the play that don't result in damage being done to the opponent.

Hellspark, when looking at the opponents removal suite, gets significantly worse. He costs the sligh player tempo for cards from the opponents hands, but allows them to get to the late game without taking damage on turn two and potentially turn 3. If we look at this from a worst case scenario, Keldon Marauders is clearly the stronger choice. Though Hellspark's best match up is combo, Ball Lightning would be a stronger card. Ball Lightning costs 1 less mana for the same amount of damage, upping the damage to mana ratio and quickening the tempo of the burn deck against 0 removal.

Searing Blaze is solid. I think the card is a fantastic solution to small blockers stopping your Goblin Guides on turn two. I feel like the card gets significantly weaker the longer the game goes on. As a long-term solution, the card isn't horrible. You can attack with Goblin Guide, they activate factory, you fetch and then Blaze their 3/3 Assembly Worker. With Daze, Force, etc. in the format though, and the necessity of fetch lands to fuel Blaze as an instant, I think that this card is a little scary to watch leave your hand, not knowing what's going to happen. It has a lot of potential and can solve many of Zoo's answers to Goblin Guide (they just have bigger creatures) but I don't think that warrants it as a 3 or 4 of in Sligh. Not to mention there are times when it is a dead draw, and that's something that Sligh should never have.

Conclusion:
All in all, I think Keldon Marauders is the strongest play of these three. It doesn't have the "speed" that Hellspark has, but slow and steady often wins the race. Unless it faces countermagic, it will ALWAYS deal at least 2 damage to the opponent, with a potential of 5. This is the sole reason that I cut Magma Jet from this analysis. Magma Jet will cost you a draw to deal 5. Searing Blaze can be a strong card, depending on the meta, but when walking into an unknown meta, it could just be a dead draw against combo, pox, or some other decks. If we eliminate the possibility for card failure, we build a more rounded and less situational deck. I say cut Blaze unless you run 4-6 fetch lands. Let's talk about it. I'd like to get some responses to the arguments I've put up so we can get more brains working on what I'd love to see become a tier 1 deck. ;)

Other:
In response to Combo Winter's Lava Dart argument, it depends on the deck. I wouldn't run Lava Dart if I was playing Fireblast and fetch lands, which lowers my mana density already. If I wasn't running fetches, I'd say it'd be something to consider.

[Angelfire]

@Overpowered I agree about Keldon Marauders. He is the best card in that slot. Hell Spark is bad for your tempo deals 0 damage against any decent blocker(s). Marauders can also play defense, which can buy you 1-2 turns while still dealing them 2 damage.

Awesome story about Marauders: My opponent is at 7 and is going to kill me next turn (he has a bunch of creatures that are far more than lethal, all tapped) I have just a Marauders in play (that I cast last turn) and one burn spell in hand. I swing for 3, drop him to 4 and then (super tech time) I Chain Lightning my own Marauders and then pay :R::R: to send it back to his face for the win :)

Why does Searing Blaze need fetches to be effective? Most of the time you simply need it to eliminate a blocker and you don't need fetches to kill a factory with it. The only 2 scenarios you want fetches for your Searing Blaze is to use it on your opponents turn and if you want to drop a land that turn, but don't need the mana from it.

[Jon Stewart]

Great analysis overpowered.

Just a few nitpicks. In the best case scenario, Blaze actually does 6 damage, not three. Because killing off potential blockers does deal additional damage, (either 2 damage with goblin guide, or 4 damage with fiend, for an average of 3 more damage to your opponent).

Also, the most frequent reason opponents hesistate to block Goblin Guide or Marauders even in those occasions where they do have a bigger blocker (ie. Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker), is because they don't want to risk losing their bigger blocker to a burn spell. In either case, you're still basically doing a one for one trade (your burn spell for their blocker), because both Goblin Guide or Marauder already dealt two damage, even if they do get blocked the turn after they are played. Just to clarify, I am operating under the assumption that Goblin Guide always deals 2 damage on the turn that it's played, because it comes as a surprise so your opponent wouldn't leave blockers open just to deal with it, and you wouldn't cast the card in the first place on a turn in which your opponent does have a bigger blocker untapped. So using it to take out a 4/5 goyf or 5/5 tombstalker the turn after would just be a bonus effect.

Now we just need to examine Shard Volley vs. Lava Dart vs. Spark Elemental vs. Figure of Destiny vs. Jackal Pup in the deck, and I think we can settle on a pretty much ideal list.

Here is my attempt to do so.

Shard Volley is being considered because many burn decks do play it a 2 of alongside Fireblast, and manage to support the card just fine. So it's basically yet another Lightning Bolt effect making it far more likely you can kill off your opponent on turn 3.

Lava Dart I think only makes sense in an environment that has a lot of x/1 creatures, otherwise, why wouldn't you play something else instead? And I'm not convinced that legacy in it's current form is such an environment. Although I am open to being convinced that indeed, it's still useful for finishing off a Goyf or Tombstalker after they block a Kiln Fiend, or for finishing off a Nacatl after it blocks a Goblin Guide, or that Noble Hierarch, Lackey and Confidant are enough x/1 creatures to justify playing the card.

Spark Elemental is too weak and condiitional and doesn't even pump Fiend, so it's out.

Figure of Destiny I still believe eats up too much mana to become an actual threat. Spending 5 mana just to get a 4/4 isnt the type of efficency sligh is looking for. It does give the deck a better lategame, but at the same time, sinking that much mana into just one card is just asking to get it Pathed and losing an enormous amount of tempo.

You will never pump FoD to the 8/8 in sligh because you're not going to get to six lands. So basically FoD is a ...

R for a vanilla 1/1
RR* for a vanilla 2/2
or
RRRRR* for a vanilla 4/4

* You can pay this casting cost over multiple turns.

Would any of those creatures be something that seem like a good investment for sligh or burn, I don't think so.

And Jackal Pup is a card that I actually still like quite a bit in a sligh deck. But alas, Goblin Guide seems strictly more efficent.

[overpowered]

You are both correct about Blaze. My judgment was a little clouded because I lost to two factories the other day with a blaze in hand ;_;...

So you're both right. I guess I'd just prefer cards that were never dead, but that's tough to get with PoP in the deck and people running basics only to avoid wastelands. I suppose Blaze is good in the aggro match, and can fit the role of Lava Dart if you can't proc landfall on it.

I'll be keeping it at a two or three of though. I do think that the card gets weaker as the game goes on and you near top deck mode... because in running fetches, alongside blaze, you thin mana density making it a bad top deck since you've lowered your chance to draw mana in the later game. I do stand corrected on the practical applications of Searing Blaze though, and after seeing arguments for Lava Dart, I think Blaze fills that role very nicely on the play.

[Jon Stewart]

I suppose Rift Bolt deserves some discussion as well as Angelfire opts not to play it and seems to play 4 Marauders in it's place going by post 84... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16828-Deck-Sligh&p=448015&viewfull=1#post448015

I personally have always loved Rift Bolt ever since I first started to play burn. It's another 1 mana for 3 damage, you just have to wait one turn to use it, which imo isn't a big deal. The one turn delay hurts your ability to pump Fiend sometimes, but it's really not that big a deal as it's only a 1cc card so you can cast something alongside it to pump Fiend with, not a two casting cost card like Marauders. Also, Rift Bolt is usually the ideal turn one play, so that you can decide it's target on turn two. The main instances where you want Rift Bolt's effect immediately is in the late game. And in the lategame, it can be played for 3 mana to give the effect immediately.

P.S: Angelfire, that Chain Lightning your own Marauders play is pretty epic by the way, but it also serves to demonstrate the one weakness with the card, that it takes 3 turns to deal its damage in full (unless you pull a stunt like that). For a turn two drop, that's pretty slow. It competes with Fiend's casting cost. You always want to play Fiend first since it can win you the game the very next turn. And playing Marauders that turn after Fiend was played is pretty bad as well. This is the reason I am opting to play 2 Marauders in Searing Blaze's slot, rather than playing 4 in Rift Bolt's slot.

[1maarten1]

I suppose Rift Bolt deserves some discussion as well as Angelfire opts not to play it and seems to play 4 Marauders in it's place going by post 84... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16828-Deck-Sligh&p=448015&viewfull=1#post448015

I personally have always loved Rift Bolt ever since I first started to play burn. It's another 1 mana for 3 damage, you just have to wait one turn to use it, which imo isn't a big deal. The one turn delay hurts your ability to pump Fiend sometimes, but it's really not that big a deal as it's only a 1cc card so you can cast something alongside it to pump Fiend with, not a two casting cost card like Marauders. Also, Rift Bolt is usually the ideal turn one play, so that you can decide it's target on turn two. The main instances where you want Rift Bolt's effect immediately is in the late game. And in the lategame, it can be played for 3 mana to give the effect immediately.

P.S: Angelfire, that Chain Lightning your own Marauders play is pretty epic by the way, but it also serves to demonstrate the one weakness with the card, that it takes 3 turns to deal its damage in full (unless you pull a stunt like that). For a turn two drop, that's pretty slow. It competes with Fiend's casting cost. You always want to play Fiend first since it can win you the game the very next turn. And playing Marauders that turn after Fiend was played is pretty bad as well. This is the reason I am opting to play 2 Marauders rather than 4.

The main reason you (imo) NEED to run 4 Rift Bolt, is that it dodges counterbalance. You stated well that the chance CB+TOP will land is very small, but in case it does Rift Bolt shines. I dont think we need to adept too much to Fiend, even though its awesome.

I think i'd play 3 Marauders, since 2 is too less imo. And also maybe 2 Blazes, since that card can be pretty badass aswell. Im going to do some testing with the deck, and i'll post my results :).

~Maarten

[Jon Stewart]

You're right. I think Rift Bolt is another auto 4 of personally.

I really like that Fiend says to pump it when you cast a sorcery or instant, rather than when you resolve one. This means that even if your sorcery gets countered with a CB+Top, it still atleast pumps fiend for you, plus it adds to your yard so that you can feed it to Lavamancer. That plus Rift Bolt and Fireblast imo give you a fighting chance against an opponent even if they lucksack and manage to draw and cast both pieces of their CB+Top combo onto the board with enough mana open to use them before you kill them off. Plus in game two, you get Smash to Smithereens and other sideboard goodies to help out where as almost no decks play any cards in the side to help them against the burn matchup.

Please do post your findings, and if you don't mind, the specific decklist you used and the cards you liked and disliked in that list.

[Grollub]

Posts that suggest that Manamorphose not be included in Kiln Fiend Sligh show that you don't understand math or logic, so please stop posting in this thread.
If Manamorphose was all that which you guys are saying, then how come it's not a 4-of in every deck with green or red mana?

Chalice, Trinisphere and other tax effects, Chill, Blasts, counters and Ethersworn Canonist are all frequently seen...

That's not to say Manamorphose shouldn't be used in burn/sligh (haven't tried it), just that it isn't without flaws.

[overseer1234]

If Manamorphose was all that which you guys are saying, then how come it's not a 4-of in every deck with green or red mana?

Chalice, Trinisphere and other tax effects, Chill, Blasts, counters and Ethersworn Canonist are all frequently seen...

That's not to say Manamorphose shouldn't be used in burn/sligh (haven't tried it), just that it isn't without flaws.

This.

Kiln Fiend is realy a sweet adittion to the dek, but there's no reason to start ruing cards that are only good with kiln fiend on the board. Because then you're just building a glass canon version of burn.

[1maarten1]

Ok here is my list:

// Creatures
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauders
total : 14

// Spells
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
total : 24

// Draw
4 Manamorphose
total : 4

// Lands
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
total : 18

// Sideboard
3 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus

And now the explenations:

I decided to go with 3 Marauders, because I find 2 too less, and 4 too many lol :).
4 Rift Bolt, for reasons stated earlier. I dont think this card should be cut at all.
4 Manamorphose, cause they rocked during the short testing i done with the deck.

I moved Searing Blaze to the side to fight the aggro decks alongside Volcanic Fallout. The sideboard has not been tested too much yet, but i looks pretty okay to me. I'll do some further testing and see if I need to make some changes to it. I would like to make some room for the 4th Relic of Progenitus, but I'm not sure I want to start cutting stuff too early.

I just tried to make the basic list, you can change slots around to fit in Lava dart/ Volley etc. but I just wanted to put down the basics :).

Any comments/suggestions?

~Maarten

[Jon Stewart]

Any comments/suggestions?


Only one, have you considered Flamebreak instead of Volcanic Fallout in the sideboard. It hits a lot of legacy creatures that Volcanic Fallout doesn't hit.



Chalice, Trinisphere and other tax effects, Chill, Blasts, counters and Ethersworn Canonist are all frequently seen...

Those cards effect every single card that Burn plays, not just manamorphose, so what does manamorphose have to do with your point.

overseer, you don't know what you're talking about. Manamorphose is by no means only good with Kiln Fiend on the table. Manamorphose is worth playing in burn decks, even without Kiln Fiend. Hell, I've even seen Manamorphose played in The Rock to great effect. It's an underplayed underestimated card in the format but by absolutely no means is it a bad card. Play with it, in any deck that can support it actually, and you'll see what I mean about it being extremely useful and almost never dead.

[Grollub]

Those cards effect every single card that Burn plays, not just manamorphose, so what does manamorphose have to do with your point.
That's exactly the point, Manamorphose makes you suffer the effect twice.

[Jon Stewart]

How exactly does Manamorphose make you suffer the effect of Counterspells or Blasts, or Chalice twice. Every burn card can be Countered, Blasted and whatever 2cc card you play in place of Manamorphose (the deck is already out of decent 1cc cards to run) would be stopped by a Chalice at 2 same as Manamorphose.

And I would much prefer that they Counter or Blast my Manamorphose than my Price of Progressf. And I would much prefer that they set their Chalice at 2 to counter my Manamorphose than that they set it at 1 to counter the rest of my deck.

And those other cards you listed are cards that barely see any play in legacy at all.

Your whole argument makes about as much sense as it does to claim that Brainstorm is a bad card because it makes you vulnerable to Trinisphere, Chalice at 1, and other tax effects, Canonists and is stopped by REBs and counters.

I suggest actually trying the card before you attack a card with the same exact argument that could be used against every single low cc cantrip from Ponder to Wall of Blossoms.

[Grollub]

And those other cards you listed are cards that barely see any play in legacy at all.
I don't know about you, but I frequently see Canonist and tax effects, both of which manamorphose is horrible against.


Your whole argument makes about as much sense as it does to claim that Brainstorm is a bad card because it makes you vulnerable to Trinisphere, Chalice at 1, and other tax effects, Canonists and is stopped by REBs and counters.
And that argument makes as much as Straw Golem getting a name change. ;)


I suggest actually trying the card before you attack a card with the same exact argument that could be used against every cantrip from Brainstorm to Ponder.

That's not to say Manamorphose shouldn't be used in burn/sligh (haven't tried it), just that it isn't without flaws.
Stop being so defensive...

Personally I'd only use it if I played a version with plenty colorless lands (Factory, Port, Wasteland - whatever), so the card actually could be useful for something other than being a free cantrip that randomly can be a dead draw.

[Jon Stewart]

That's not to say Manamorphose shouldn't be used in burn/sligh (haven't tried it)

Why don't you try out the card first then?

Just two hours ago, you were open to it's potential in burn. Now in those two hours, for you to swear the card isn't useful without factory, it's pretty clear that's based on emotion and not much more.

So seeing as how every single person here who actually played Manamorphose seems to swear by it and includes 4 copies in their build, how about lets drop the debate. And you can post back your thoughts on the card in a few days once you've had a chance to sleeve it up and play a round or two with it.

[1maarten1]

Only one, have you considered Flamebreak instead of Volcanic Fallout in the sideboard. It hits a lot of legacy creatures that Volcanic Fallout doesn't hit.

Plz gimme some examples :)! Fallouts uncounterable-ness and seeing that its an instant made me go for this choice. I think 2 damage is enough to get rid of the small critters, and for the bigger ones we'll have to use burn anyway since I dont think 3 is going to be enough either. And we also have Blaze to get rid of a single bigger creature. So I think Fallout is enough, tho I'll test and see what i like better :)!

~Maarten

[Grollub]

Why don't you try out the card first then?
It's only been a couple of hours since I wanted to chime in. ;)

Just wanted to point out it got some cons, albeit small - it got some, that needs consideration instead of just being a "mindless 4-of".


Just two hours ago, you were open to it's potential in burn. Now in those two hours, for you to swear the card isn't useful without factory, it's pretty clear that's based on emotion and not much more.
I'm still open to it, my gut instinct just tells me it isn't worth it. I'd be more concerned about losing a game thanks to a 'phose drawn with a tax effect active, than I'd win due to the 1 card filtering.

[Jon Stewart]

Well there's Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Vampire Nighthawk, Sea Drake, Serra Avenger, lots of random stuff. Plus it lowers your opponent's life total by another point so that they're easier to kill with burn.

But yeah, 2 should be enough for 80% of the creatures that Flamebreak can hit. If being uncounterable matters to you more, I could see playing Volcanic Fallout.

[troopatroop]

The main point, is that Manamorphose pumps Kiln Fiend for free, allowing three spells to be cast easily. The fact that it Costs 0 and Cantrips is almost good enough on its own, but the fact that it can be stellar with this new card is why it makes the cut. I'm not a fan of Keldon Marauders. Sometimes you want creatures that will actually stick around. Tarmogoyf seems much better than Keldon Marauders, and they both cost two. I would ask the people playing Marauders to justify it, as splashing for a few Taigas is easy, and fuels Lavamancer. Hate to be that guy, but it's true.

[Grollub]

The main point, is that Manamorphose pumps Kiln Fiend for free, allowing three spells to be cast easily. The fact that it Costs 0 and Cantrips is almost good enough on its own, but the fact that it can be stellar with this new card is why it makes the cut. I'm not a fan of Keldon Marauders. Sometimes you want creatures that will actually stick around. Tarmogoyf seems much better than Keldon Marauders, and they both cost two. I would ask the people playing Marauders to justify it, as splashing for a few Taigas is easy, and fuels Lavamancer. Hate to be that guy, but it's true.
The 'goyf splash also happens to put Manamorphose in the "mindless 4-of" spot. :P

[overseer1234]

overseer, you don't know what you're talking about. Manamorphose is by no means only good with Kiln Fiend on the table. Manamorphose is worth playing in burn decks, even without Kiln Fiend. Hell, I've even seen Manamorphose played in The Rock to great effect. It's an underplayed underestimated card in the format but by absolutely no means is it a bad card. Play with it, in any deck that can support it actually, and you'll see what I mean about it being extremely useful and almost never dead.

Dude, please stop acting like you invented hot water.

I hear you talking about how good manamorphose it and all, but seriously the cards been around for what? more then a year, en how many sligh decks that made top8 ran it???

If you speak so much of it being the next big thing for sligh builds then where are the result's??? And not just your own testing result's, but sanctioned tournament result's.

That shouldn't be a problem since you said yourself its always good, and rarely dead even without kiln fiend, so you shouldn't have trouble finding lists running it going by that fact you yourself have given.


And what's with the nonsense of that it should be in any deck that can support it???

Really there's no way in hell that statement is even remotely correct.

I mean how many (and here it comes):
Aggro Loam, Aluren, ATS, Bant Aggro, Bant Control, Bant Survival,Baseruption, Berserk Stompy, Bubble Hulk, Burn, Cephalid Breakfast, Chalice Green, CounterSliver, Dark Depths, Deadguy Ale, Doran Rock, Dragon Stompy, Dreaded Fish, Dreadstill, Elves!,Enchantress, Eternal Garden, Eva Green, Fish, Food Chain Goblins, Full English Breakfast, Funkbrew.dec , G/W Aggro , Gifts Rock ,Goblins, Ichorid , Lands.dec, Landstill Ubg/Ubgw, Life.dec, Loam Control, Madness , Naya Aggro, New Horizons, Not Quite Survival, Pattern, R/G Beats, RecSur, Sligh, Slivers!, Spanish Inquisition, Stax, Suicide, Survival Advantage, Survival Misc, Survival Rock, Team America, Ten Land Stompy, Terrageddon, The Fear, The Rock, The Tezzerator, Thopter Combo ,Threshold 5c, Threshold UG, Threshold UGb, Threshold UGr, Threshold UGw, Threshold UGwb, Threshold UGwr, Threshold/Swans, Unsorted CounterTop, VegasBG, Welder Survival, Zoo

-decks have you seen running it???? I mean I'm only showing those from deckcheck.net that don't even need to splash to run it??? (barring belcher and TES since they do (occasioaly) run them since the card is practicly made for those decks)

Simply saying that people don't know what their talking about is another thing you should watch out with, especially since you're the one trying to make a freaking burn deck out of sligh.

Ohw and here's some lecture about the sligh deck, I suggest you read it before you make stupid statement's again about how "wonderful" lava spike, manamorphose and ball lightning/spark elemental belong in a sligh deck.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/ash24

http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mf39

[troopatroop]

If you speak so much of it being the next big thing for sligh builds then where are the result's??? And not just your own testing result's, but sanctioned tournament result's.

How can there be tournament results, when Kiln Fiend has only just been spoiled? Calm down, Burn threads always fan flames.

[overseer1234]

How can there be tournament results, when Kiln Fiend has only just been spoiled? Calm down, Burn threads always fan flames.

Kiln fien might not be legal (yet) , but manamorphose sure as hell is, and as he stated himself that manamorphose doesn't need kiln fiend to be good.

Folowing that statement: show me those results...

[Jon Stewart]

Lol, overseer, how about you try to make your case based on reasoning. Manamorphose is a techy card, and certain lists support it perfectly. It's pretty well known that the card is fantastic tech in combo decks of all sorts. I can personallly attest to the fact that it's great tech in a particular build of The Rock that is heavy in sorceries, and cards like Tombstalkers and Goyfs. And it's been confirmed by me and everyone who's tried Fiend Sligh that it's fantastic tech in this list.

There's lots of upsides to playing the card (it fills your yard, improves deck consistency, pumps fiend) and no relevent or common downside. Mathematically, it's stupid and illogical not to play the card here.

Combo plays Manamorphose to improve deck consistency, and fix mana. This deck plays Manamorphose to improve deck consistency, pump fiend and fill the yard. In both these cases, it would be a mistake not to play the card. Manamorphose is an automatic four of in this deck.

If you actually bother to play with it, you would see exactly what I mean.


And yes, I have indeed seen Manamorphose played in The Rock (in a build that supported it perfectly) to great effect. I had the chance to try that deck out myself a while ago, and the next time I see him, I will try to get his decklist.

He played it to improve deck consistency, fix mana, fill the yard for Tombstalker, and because his deck consisted of almost entirley sorceries like Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Hymn and creatures and few instant effects so it pumped goyf for him and there was no downside to it (it would be different if he played counterspells and thus had to leave mana open for those). It was the perfect tech for his build and I think anyone running his particular build of the deck would be making a mistake not to play the card.

I don't think Manamorphose can be supported in any deck with countermagic for obvious reasons. But in a Rock deck like his with few instants, that plays Goyf and Tombstalker and needs to fix mana colors, such a deck supports it perfectly and I think you would be incredibly impressed with Manamorphose if you bothered to try it.

That's the whole concept of tech. Lots of cards are techy, in that they work extremely well in certain decks and certain purposes, but that few people are familiar with them and use them in those specific cases where they are supported and should be used. In Belcher, Combo, Fiend Sligh, some builds of Burn and his build of the Rock, Manamorphose is the perfect card to run and works on many different levels.

But we're going off on a tangent so lets get back to talk about this specific deck. Try it out here and come back and tell me with a straight face Manamorphose is not a great inclusion along side Fiend and Lavamancer.

[Grollub]

Calm down, Burn threads always fan flames.
Best pun in a long time. ;-)


Manamorphose is an automatic four of in this deck. Mathematically, it's stupid and illogical not to play it here. There's lots of upsides to playing the card (it fills your yard, improves deck consistency, pumps fiend) and no relevent or common downside.
It doesn't increase consistency. You're cutting a 2CC buisness spell for a spell that might turn into a buisness spell.

[Jon Stewart]

It increases consistency in getting Lightning Bolt, Kiln Fiend, Lavamancer and the other top tier burn/sligh cards is what I mean.

You could play a third tier burn card like Lava Dart in place of Manamorphose, or you can play Manamorphose alongside only tier one and tier two burn/sligh cards which in turn increases your ability to draw into those tier one and tier two cards, and also lets you get away with playing fewer lands. Burn and Fiend Sligh want to absolutely maximize the number of 1cc 3 damage spells in the deck. Unfortunatley, there's only 16-18 printed. Manamorphose helps you draw into those more frequently, and also lets you draw into bomby sligh creatures like Lavamancer and Fiend more consistently, all while feeding the yard and pumping Fiend.

[1maarten1]

Best pun in a long time. ;-)


It doesn't increase consistency. You're cutting a 2CC buisness spell for a spell that might turn into a buisness spell.

I just see it as if it is similar to fetch, but then for spells and creatures. If you play it, it makes the chance bigger you draw into a Bolt or any of those cards. Its never a dead draw, because when you play it, it just replaces itself. And by doing this, you are pumping your fiend. So yea its good, and if you dont believe it: go test it and you will see :)

~Maarten

[JohnnyCage]

I hate when people who haven't tested fiend with this card post. I can personally link you to my top 8 placing running burn with morphse in it in the morning. The card is amazing and dart is as well. Only as a three of. Dart is meta dependant but should be strong in an unknown meta as a three of. Folk, gobs, uw tempo, and other decks hate dart. It can clear the way for fiend without tying mana down that's its strength. But until you test manamorphse just stop posting how you hate it.

Ps...when do good players Ever reference wizards articles...and by those articles sligh wouldn't exist and only burn would seeing how quoting your article... is the most efficient use of maximum mana each turn...sigh. Some people hate synergy and fail to boil math of free cantrips. It also enables you to run one less land then without running it.

Pss...sorry about coherence and grammar...its two in the morning and I just finished watching ninja assassin...movie does deliver what it promises...lol thank god for low expectations.

[Jon Stewart]

You've convinced me JohnnyCage, I'm going to test Lava Dart again as a two of, and see if it's helpful in my meta. I don't recall seeing too many X/1 targets, but maybe I haven't been paying attention to stuff like Noble Hierarchs, or situations where I could Chain Lightning, then Lava Dart RWM.

[JohnnyCage]

I mean its obviously not the strongest card but some of the highest favored decks right now it truely shines against. Do me a favor though. Declare in your head one other card as a dart. Because dart is at its strongest when you get it early.

[Combo Winter]

The point is that dart is strickly better in cirten situations than lightning bolt (as well as another one mana burn spell you could play). these situations are:
1) kiln fiend is on the board
2) they have 2 1/1s or a 1/1 you want to burn
3) they have conterbalance on the board and you need damage to the face.
4) you need 1 damage to kill something and they have a counter.
5) your opponent sucks and forgets about the dart in your yard and it affects combat math
6) when they have a 4 thougness guy you wanna kill but still wanna save one damage to the face.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The point is that dart is strickly better in cirten situations than lightning bolt (as well as another one mana burn spell you could play). these situations are:
1) kiln fiend is on the board
2) they have 2 1/1s or a 1/1 you want to burn
3) they have conterbalance on the board and you need damage to the face.
4) you need 1 damage to kill something and they have a counter.
5) your opponent sucks and forgets about the dart in your yard and it affects combat math
6) when they have a 4 thougness guy you wanna kill but still wanna save one damage to the face.

3) doesn't work, flashback still gives it a cost of 1

I've seen this idea a lot, everyone should remember that killing a 1/1 with a 1 damage spell doesn't make it good. You're still spending a card to get rid of their cards, and just because your card has a more limited use doesn't mean it's necessarily well spent. It's like Spell Pierceing a brainstorm, even though people do it a lot because it seems like a decent thing to do, it's not necessarily a good play. It would be better to overkill a creature than to deal it just enough damage anyway.

[Combo Winter]

On number 3 my point was you could cast the dart in response to a top activation and then flash it back after playing another spell.
The point is that killing that x/1 and then getting an extra point of damage to the face is better than killing a x/1 with a lightning bolt, rift bolt or chain lightning. Also its not as if you have to sac a land to cast lava dart so often you will not sac lands untill they are irrelevent. Also i feel that the situations i listed are not that uncommon if one were to play a day of matches vs a varied meta.

[troopatroop]

Lava Dart is so underwhelming. Sure it can deal with a few creatures in some matchups, but there will be ones where it doesnt do anything. Killing Noble Hierarch with Lightning bolt is the SAME THING as killing it with Lava Dart, minus the flashback, which no decent player will walk right into. I just don't buy it, Lava Dart wasn't good enough years ago, and Kiln Fiend isn't going to change that. That's just my opinion tho.

EDIT: Lets make a list of Creatures it deals with

Mother of Runes
Weathered Wayfarer
Noble Hierarch
Goblin Lackey
Vendilion Clique
Dark Confidant
Cursecatcher
Silvergill Adept
Spellstutter Sprite

...anything else worth mentioning?

[Jon Stewart]

Lavamancer
Steppe Lynx
Pestermite
Dryad Arbor
Prepumped Figure of Destiny
90% of legacy playable elves
Empty the Warrens tokens
Siegegang Commander tokens
Bitterblossom tokens
Bloodghast
Flickerwisp/Mangadara of Corondor
Genju of Spires/Hellspark Elemental/Ball Lightning
Many of the nonshroud creatures in Berserk Stompy

I'm sure there's others. But overall, I think we've got all the important ones.

Yeah, I too think that Lava Dart is underwhelming. But I'm going to test it out just to be sure.

[JohnnyCage]

Lavamancer
Steppe Lynx
Pestermite
Dryad Arbor
Prepumped Figure of Destiny
90% of legacy playable elves
Empty the Warrens tokens
Siegegang Commander tokens
Bitterblossom tokens
Bloodghast
Flickerwisp/Mangadara of Corondor
Genju of Spires/Hellspark Elemental/Ball Lightning
Many of the nonshroud creatures in Berserk Stompy

I'm sure there's others. But overall, I think we've got all the important ones.

Yeah, I too think that Lava Dart is underwhelming. But I'm going to test it out just to be sure.

Lava dart is significantly better then years past. Also
Birds of paradise
Eternal witness
Warren instigator
Fleshbag marauder
Aven mindsensor
Elspeth tokens
Putrid imp
Mirror entity
Wirewood symbiote
And so many others I'm too last to name.

[Combo Winter]

Lava dart is never dead as it goes to the face for 2 and kills all the x2s in the format as well if needed. All those cretures you listed lava dart would be strickly better than our best burn spell lightning bolt at killing. Here is my list that highlights the power of lava dart. As i try to play a soild burn plan backed up by kiln fiend so if the fiend plan is countered the deck will have a solid midgame. and enough one drops. As playing manamorphase effects the consistancy of the turn one play which this deck needs if it wants to win on turn 3. Also when I see lavamancers without fetches I cringe. I feel that cursed scroll is needed in a deck thats main plan fails to any creature removal and is amazing in the kiln fiend versions worst matchup which is counterbalance.

4 kiln fiend
4 lavamancer
4 goblin guide

3 cursed scroll
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava dart
4 fireblast
1 riftbolt
4 magma jet
4 pop

3 barbarian ring
7 fetch
10 mountains

[Jon Stewart]

You claimed that Cursed Scroll is worth it to help the CB+Top matchup (which is not that bad a matchup already because the deck was usually fast enough to not give them an opportunity to even find the combo pieces.) But if Cursed Scroll slows the deck down, how is Cursed Scroll going to even resolve in that matchup or stay in play if it does. How do you cast it against a resolved CB + Top? It has a cc of 1, and Top can be put onto the top of your opponent's library in order to counter Scroll. There is no way a competent CB+Top player would let it resolve. If he doesn't have the combo, he's going to FoW or Daze it. Even if you get lucky and it resolves, he's going to Pridemage it

Most CB + Top decks play either 3-4 Qasali Pridemage or 3 Trygon Predator (alongside 4 Daze and 4 FoW). Before Cursed Scroll, the deck had no targets for these cards, but now it gave them some. Which would still be worth doing if Cursed Scroll was broken powerful in the way that Lavamancer and Kiln Fiend are. However, Cursed Scroll is not that powerful. I will explain below why it's not even a halfway decent card anymore.

If I wanted to give Pridemage and Trygon targets, I would rather play Ankh of Mishra (since that deals 4 additional damage for every fetchland your opponent uses), or one of the 3cc enchantments that deals 2 damage to your opponent every turn, without any additional mana investment. That 3cc enchantment actually has a decent shot of resolving even with a CB in play atleast.

But the real reason Cursed Scroll is bad is that it's extremely mana intensive for the effect it's giving. Investing 4 mana to deal 2 damage is not very efficent. It was efficent a decade ago, back when Cursed Scroll was actually good, and saw a lot of play. But this was because...

a.) Creatures sucked back then and creatures with a cc of 3 or less often had a toughness of 2 or less back then.

b.)There were no where near as many good burn spells back then as there are today, Burn decks back then had to play Shock.

c.) The only color that could deal with artifacts back then was White and Red and few if any decks played much if any artifact destruction. This is no longer the case.

d.) The format was overall a lot slower and less efficent back then.

[Angelfire]

Lava dart is never dead as it goes to the face for 2 and kills all the x2s in the format as well if needed. All those cretures you listed lava dart would be strickly better than our best burn spell lightning bolt at killing. Here is my list that highlights the power of lava dart. As i try to play a soild burn plan backed up by kiln fiend so if the fiend plan is countered the deck will have a solid midgame. and enough one drops. As playing manamorphase effects the consistancy of the turn one play which this deck needs if it wants to win on turn 3. Also when I see lavamancers without fetches I cringe. I feel that cursed scroll is needed in a deck thats main plan fails to any creature removal and is amazing in the kiln fiend versions worst matchup which is counterbalance.

4 kiln fiend
4 lavamancer
4 goblin guide

3 cursed scroll
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava dart
4 fireblast
1 riftbolt
4 magma jet
4 pop

3 barbarian ring
7 fetch
10 mountains

-Cursed Scroll is weak and slow. It is not needed and the "main plan" is not creatures, but burning them to death. Kiln Fiend is just an alternate win condition that steals games. A better solution to beating Counterbalance decks is Vexing Shusher (especially in the sideboard).

-4 Fireblast and 4 Lava Dart is very land intensive and you already run a lowish amount of Mountains (even at ~17) for just 4 Fireblast. It would be very difficult for you to double Fireblast and you could forget about flashing back any Lava Darts. Lava Dart killing X2s is a joke. Spending a card, a land, and a mana to kill one creature w/ 2 toughness is awful. Lava Dart also makes your deck even more Filn Fiend dependant, the key to this decks success is to compliment him, but don't build around him (don't splash green for berserk, for example). Lava Dart falls into that territory.

-Barbarian Ring opens you up to Wasteland, deals you damage when it taps, deals you 2 when you Price of Progress, can't be sacced to Fireblast, needs threshold to use it and you run 4 Grim Lavamancer etc... The cons really don't seem to be higher than the pros.

-You still refuse to put in Manamorphose which shows you either can't admit you are wrong or are not very good at evaluating cards. How does Manamorphose "effects the consistancy of the turn one play which this deck needs if it wants to win on turn 3."? You should be playing around 20 one mana spells, so its not like Manamorphose is going to make you take turn 1 off. If you wanted to win on turn 3 you wouldn't be playing Cursed Scroll, Magma Jet, Barbarian Ring, or Grim Lavamancer. This deck wins on turn 3 two ways, uncontested Kiln Fiend and uncontested Goblin Guide. You don't run enough 1 mana 3 damage spells (1 Rift Bolt, no Lava Spike) to consider winning on turn 3 with just burn spells above 1% of the time. You say people should run fetches for Grim and yet you still refuse to run Manamorphose? Does not compute...

TL:DR - Your list is very far from optimal.

[Jon Stewart]

All excellent points Angelfire.

[ReAnimator]

So if this list belongs in a different thread i'll delete it. I know some sligh decks have splashed goyf before. I don't think this is a super large departure from the lists here, but i don't want to step on any toes, i haven't read through all the pages of this thread so if this has been covered let me know. I'm just pumped about Kiln Fiend and running it in multiple formats. Goyf also seems really easy to play if you are already running fetches for lavamancer and manamorphose for fiend.


Lava Dart also makes your deck even more Kiln Fiend dependent, the key to this decks success is to compliment him, but don't build around him (don't splash green for berserk, for example).


Now i don't disagree with this premise in general, but i thought i should address it cause my build is sort of doing this, but with good reason i think. This is my list and it is a little more creature based than normal, but doesn't sacrifice too much burn in my opinion. Since something like berserk does work super well with Kiln fiend rather than just have that one synergy i wanted to find other cards that could compliment. I know Geopede isn't that popular compared with something like keldon mauraders, but with berserk it gets a lot better. I also feel being able to swing into goyfs and war monks is pretty good.

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancers
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Plated Geopede
4 Tarmogoyf
19 Creatures

4 Bolt
4 Chain
3 POP
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
2 Berserk
22 Spells

4 Wooded Foothills
6 Red Fetch
2 Taiga
7 Mountain
19 Lands

There are obviously a lot of options for the sideboard, It's possible you'd want a basic forest to bring in against certain decks, but i doubt it needs to be maindeck.

I'm not totally sold on the rift bolts, it may be better to have something that is easier to cast when you need to.

This is what i'm testing at the moment and it seems to be holding together pretty well, i know there are quite a few synergy's in here which can lead to inconsistency but i think a lot of them are worth it and the draw backs are pretty minor.

[troopatroop]

My finally tested decklist.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

10 Red Fetches
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

I don't think Geopede is any good, because we don't run enough lands. I have alot of experience with Steppe Lynx, and that guy is hard enough to get to work consistently. The problem is that he's a two drop that requires more lands. You really have to get lucky, opening two non fetchlands and fetches to pump it after. I like the idea, especially with Berserk + Kiln Fiend, but I don't want to have to worry about two for ones here. I don't think this deck could recover well enough without any draw. My list is straight forward and consistent. I've opted to play Tarmogoyf for a couple reasons that should be obvious to most people. Without him, opposing Goyfs are very scary. He's the best blocker in the format, and we play a metric fuckton of spells that win the Goyf stall. Granted, he's not very fast, but he's also huge. The fetches go a LONG way in fueling the Lavamancers, and Green gives us Krosan Grip as a SB option. Searing Blaze is a 4of for me. Two of the most common decks in Legacy, Merfolk and Zoo get hit very hard by that card. It's wonderful at evening out the board and getting you ahead. I wouldn't cut any of the cards for Lava Dart, Cursed Scroll, or Shard Volley. The SB I'm thinking, 4 Crypt, 4 Grip, 2 Vexing Shusher, 3 Runeflare Trap, 2 Mindbreak Trap. BTW, last night it went 6-0 against merfolks and 3-1 against Zoo!

[1maarten1]

My finally tested decklist.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

10 Red Fetches
2 Taiga
6 Mountain

I don't think Geopede is any good, because we don't run enough lands. I have alot of experience with Steppe Lynx, and that guy is hard enough to get to work consistently. The problem is that he's a two drop that requires more lands. You really have to get lucky, opening two non fetchlands and fetches to pump it after. I like the idea, especially with Berserk + Kiln Fiend, but I don't want to have to worry about two for ones here. I don't think this deck could recover well enough without any draw. My list is straight forward and consistent. I've opted to play Tarmogoyf for a couple reasons that should be obvious to most people. Without him, opposing Goyfs are very scary. He's the best blocker in the format, and we play a metric fuckton of spells that win the Goyf stall. Granted, he's not very fast, but he's also huge. The fetches go a LONG way in fueling the Lavamancers, and Green gives us Krosan Grip as a SB option. Searing Blaze is a 4of for me. Two of the most common decks in Legacy, Merfolk and Zoo get hit very hard by that card. It's wonderful at evening out the board and getting you ahead. I wouldn't cut any of the cards for Lava Dart, Cursed Scroll, or Shard Volley. The SB I'm thinking, 4 Crypt, 4 Grip, 2 Vexing Shusher, 3 Runeflare Trap, 2 Mindbreak Trap. BTW, last night it went 6-0 against merfolks and 3-1 against Zoo!

Im not liking the tarmogoyf splash tbh. It opens you up to wasteland disruption, which i dont like. And on turn 2 i ALWAYS want to drop fiend over goyf. I just think there is no place in such a tight list. And in what matchups is goyf going to significantly improve your chances of winning, over having some creature like marauder?

~Maarten

[Grollub]

Im not liking the tarmogoyf splash tbh. It opens you up to wasteland disruption, which i dont like.
I'd happily let my opponent waste a land if I'm playing Sligh+Goyf, as in most cases I would just have cast a 'goyf then and they are wasting (no pun intended) precious tempo which they cannot afford against a deck as aggressive as this.


And on turn 2 i ALWAYS want to drop fiend over goyf. I just think there is no place in such a tight list. And in what matchups is goyf going to significantly improve your chances of winning, over having some creature like marauder?
You don't always draw the "Killing Fiend", and goyf improves practical every match up involving creatures compared to the alternatives. The green splash also makes the sideboard alot stronger.

@troopatroop: I've arrived at the exact same list, put Goblin Guide just above Grim Lavamancer and the list you posted is 100% identic with the one at the top in my Legacy-sligh.txt! :-P

I've tested (all pre-board - we only brought decks) roughly 10 matches against Merfolk (which got utterly curbstomped; didn't lose a single game - and he is a competent player) and 6 versus a homebrew Jace2IhateCreatures.dec, which was a surprisingly hard matchup despite all the burn... Boggle.

Are you also missing the Wastelands, or is it just me?

[Phoenix Ignition]

You only have 4 fiend so a lot of the time the choice between turn 2 goyf and fiend is nonexistant-- just play the one you have. Goyf helps a great deal against decks like bant because rhox stops guide, marauders, and things like hellspark if you play it. Also, as troopatroop said it's great against opposing giant goyfs or for blocking if you need to stall to find more burn. It is Goyf after all.

[Combo Winter]

I just don't think you guys understand how cards you have never played with work. troopa Please explain how a deck that plays 7 one drops and 8 guys who do nothing until turn 3 along with a 2 drop burn spell that is dead unless they have guys in play is a better burn deck than a deck that is meant too deal 20 by turn 4 even if you draw no creatures. Cards like magma jet and cursed scroll are not that great in a regular sligh deck mainly because you wanna keep the mana to damage ratio high across the board, but in a deck that wants to empty its load on turn 3 you need longevity and card selection that is why these cards are often seen in burn builds which are the kiln fiend version are closer to.

Also if you don't understand how cursed scroll is good it is a must force of will turn one play for most blue decks. This is why i chose it as a turn one play over some random one drop guy. All the cards in my version except kiln fiend go to the face; the additions of searing blaze morphase and goyf takes away from the fact that you can actually play a decent burn deck without kiln fiend as opposed to a bad burn deck.

This goes to reanimator any sligh deck playing 12 2 drop guys with no haste and 7 one drops is way off. You need more turn one plays because if you don't play a guy on turn one and your turn 2 threat gets countered or killed your so far behind you wont end up attacking utill turn 4 at a minimum assuming you face no additional disruption. Comon card that will put to you in this situation are fow daze stp path any burn spell, any black removal spell ie I like your chances of not attacking until turn 4.

Either way I'm probably gonna stop posting on this thread because as I really don't belive a kiln fiend version that plays goyf is better than a three duce version that plays 12 one drops goyf/confidant and marauder as I belive that 12 true one drops is needed in sligh. At the very least i would add 4 cursed scroll to your sideboards as i think its a perfect addition to the kiln fiend version and have been strong in my limited testing.

[Grollub]

I just don't think you guys understand how cards you have never played with work.
I just think you are drawing baseless conclusions...


Please explain how a deck that plays 7 one drops and 8 guys who do nothing untill turn 3 along with a 2 drop burn spell that is dead unless they have guys in play is a better burn deck than a deck thats ment too deal 20 by turn 4 even if you draw no creatures.
Erm, what? You want us to explain why a burn deck is better at being a burn deck... Eh? I don't understand this question at all.

The only times where Lava Dart is remotely useful Searing Blaze is strictly superior. I fail to see how a, in my opinion, weaker burn suite (-3 Rift Bolt, -4 Searing Blaze, +4 Lava Dart, +1 Fireblast, +2 lands) can be leads and bounds better at killing turn 4 compared to a deck that can consistently turn a 'goyf or Killing Fiend sideways to the face starting turn 3. That being said, I don't think it's fair to compare our two versions really, our list is more focused on the regular sligh play where you're in the direction of traditional burn.

Searing Blaze certainly is less than stellar against every deck with little to no creatures, but that's the minority and what the sideboard is for. I haven't tested the board yet, but Cursed Scroll is certainly be on the list. :)

[troopatroop]

And in what matchups is goyf going to significantly improve your chances of winning, over having some creature like Marauder?

Merfolk, Counter-Top, Eva Green decks, Zoo. He sticks around, and puts up a huge fight for two mana. Marauder only lives to block for a turn. And like Grollub said above me, very few decks can get profit out of using Wasteland in the early turns against this deck. They're putting themselves a land-drop back, and our deck doesn't really care about accumulating 3+ lands. Usually, them Wasting you means you're gonna have a Goyf on the table, because you should be fetching for Mountains otherwise.


Also if you don't understand how cursed scroll is good it is a must force of will turn one play for most blue decks.

You're just wrong. Maybe you're good at baiting FoW, or the people in your metagame are awful, but Cursed Scroll doesn't kill any of Counter-Tops creatures, or do anything in the first 5 turns of the game. Noble Hierarch and Qasali are about the only ones, and Pridemage blows it up if they play that. By no means is it a mandatory turn 1 Fow, I can definitely see them just ignoring it while locking you down.

Cursed Scroll used to be good, because games would go long. Scroll gives you something to do every turn after you've run out of cards. Legacy has become faster, and less interactive. Decks like Belcher, ANT, Reanimator, they don't give a fuck about Cursed Scroll. Neither does Zoo really, and Merfolk is already a stellar matchup. It's also mana intensive. 3 mana for 2 damage? We can do better. Also, I would never sideboard Cursed Scroll, are you serious? SB space is reserved for bad matchups. Anything with creatures is already FINE. Especially with Searing Blaze, which I swear to all of you is absolutely incredible. It definitely gets boarded out sometimes, but it's so powerful. Believe me, I traded a Maelstrom Pulse for a set of Scrolls, and I still know they're not good enough.

People don't want Tarmogoyf to be in every deck, but I'm almost positive he belongs. When given the choice between turn 2 Kiln Fiend or Tarmogoyf, of course you play the Kiln Fiend. If it eats the removal spell, you now have a very angry Tarmogoyf.

[Combo Winter]

Cursed scroll will often deal the 4-6 damage you need vs counterbalance and tempo thresh(which has no answer to a resolved one.) I mean played thresh a fair amount incuding at gp's chicago and philly and would probably force a turn one scroll although it would totally depend on my hand. And although i would agree with the assertion that its mana intensive that is no longer matters as you have no spells to play turns to play when your hand is empty. Which the deck obviously gets to a decent amount of the time.

Also I think cursed scroll is quite decent vs zoo as you will go 1 for one with them for a while and the games often go long as kiln fiend is killed by 16 or so of their spells and at worst it will trade for a pridemage. The main reason i included it was that I wanted at least 10 one drops but wanted to stay true to a burn feel so something like figure of destiny or pup would be worthless so i don't think mogg fanatic or magus of the scroll are very good options so i went with scroll.

Grollub I would totally agree with your assesment that about the goal of my versions plan vs the morphase and goyf plan. You failed to note however that i also play magma jet which has been replaced by searing blaze in your versions which by far reduces the chances of getting there just with burn. vs the very matchups you mentioned cursed scroll being bad vs belcher ant and reanimator, goyf is just as bad. The main reason i dislike the additions of goyf is the lack of one drops I feel that lava dart vs another burn spell is far less relevant than playing sligh deck that often wont have a turn one play and is playing 12 2 drops along with berserk. Also please play barbariang ring it has won me so many games over the years.

[1maarten1]

Anways, goyf good or not good... those lists belong in other threads like Goyf sligh. This thread is about mono red sligh. So lets focus on that, and if you want to talk about how good goyf is, go to the zoo or goyf sligh thread :D:D:D

~Maarten

[Angelfire]

I have been testing my version on MWS the last few days and so far the results have been more than solid. I am 27-2 in games and I haven't left a single game/match. For people who leave mid game: I count that as a game loss for them, but not a match loss (no one has left while winning). I have beaten a number of high tier decks 2-0: Merfolk, UGR Thresh (no CB/Top), Survival, Bant aggro, Pox etc...

I understand MWS is not a well defined meta, nor does it harbor the best players. It does however have decks of above average strength/tier (due to everyone "owning" every card on MWS). I will update my record when it gets more statistically relevant.

My List
//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

//Burn
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze

//Mana
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

[mmmetaphor]

My finally tested decklist.

BTW, last night it went 6-0 against merfolks and 3-1 against Zoo!


The zoo matchup concerns me. The newer lists from this thread are looking strong and streamlined however vs zoo I think we are in trouble. They'll save burn to make sure they can handle kiln and they're often packing helix (lifegain). Also, they're creatures are fatter and they have more of them... best strategy I can see surprising them with a PoP as I think they have the advantge in every other way.

[1maarten1]

I have been testing my version on MWS the last few days and so far the results have been more than solid. I am 27-2 in games and I haven't left a single game/match. For people who leave mid game: I count that as a game loss for them, but not a match loss (no one has left while winning). I have beaten a number of high tier decks 2-0: Merfolk, UGR Thresh (no CB/Top), Survival, Bant aggro, Pox etc...

I understand MWS is not a well defined meta, nor does it harbor the best players. It does however have decks of above average strength/tier (due to everyone "owning" every card on MWS). I will update my record when it gets more statistically relevant.

My List
//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

//Burn
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze

//Mana
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

Thanks for posting your results :)! What are your thoughts on blaze in MD, and no Rift bolt maindeck? What did your sideboard look like?

thanks!

[Angelfire]

Thanks for posting your results :)! What are your thoughts on blaze in MD, and no Rift bolt maindeck? What did your sideboard look like?

thanks!

Searing Blaze (when it works) is one of the strongest spells in the deck. Occasionally you have to slightly alter your plays (I only drop a 4th land if I need all the mana that turn or if I have double Fireblast). It hasn't cost me a game yet, due to Blaze being a below average topdeck or no creatures to hit.

To test Rift Bolt I would cut either Searing Blaze, Grim Lavamancer or Keldon Marauders. The reason it got snubbed is mainly due to the fact it isn't great with Kiln Fiend or for getting blocker out of the way "right now". Turn one guide, turn two Searing Blaze your blocker is often unrecoverable tempo and damage for your opponent. Grim, uncontested, is so much damage and rapes decks like Merfolk, Elves, Goblins etc... He is also kind a flag bearer for removal spells making Kiln Fiend more likely to go uncontested himself. If you ran Burn w/ Kiln Fiend, he would get killed all the time and rarely work. Marauders are 5 potential damage for 2 mana, they are great against removal and are even good for playing defense while you go to their dome.

My Sideboard
4 Sulfuric Vortex - It has been amazing. Stops Jitte, Rhox Warmonk, Sword of Light and Shadow etc... right as they get online. While also providing pretty decent damage and being hard to get rid of. It won me a game against a deck that dropped Zuran Orb as well. (Boarded in kind of a lot)

4 Vexing Shusher - Fits great into sligh. Hell an uncounterable 2/2 for 2 is decent and he guarantees spells connect. Casting a Price of Progress for 8 damage or Fireblast for lethal, knowing they are powerless to stop it is quite fun. He is also great against Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. (Boarded in a lot, blue is very popular)

4 Faerie Macabre - My graveyard hate of choice. This deck is mediocre against Reanimator (one of my two losses) and people can play around or counter other GY hate cards like Tormod's Crypt. It is crippling to hit Reanimator targets in response or would be solid for getting rid of Life From the Loam type cards. (Rarely boarded in)

3 Pyrostatic Pillar - For combo decks. (Haven't boarded it in yet, faced zero combo so far)

It should be noted Vortex, Shusher and Pillar can also be boarded in if cards are dead (For example: Searing Blaze vs creatureless or PoP vs all basics) and provide decent spells even if they don't "hate" on the deck. A resolved Vortex against control or a slow clock deck can be a ton of damage and pillar is good against something like aggro elves or something else kind of janky that runs all basics.

[1maarten1]

Searing Blaze (when it works) is one of the strongest spells in the deck. Occasionally you have to slightly alter your plays (I only drop a 4th land if I need all the mana that turn or if I have double Fireblast). It hasn't cost me a game yet, due to Blaze being a below average topdeck or no creatures to hit.

To test Rift Bolt I would cut either Searing Blaze, Grim Lavamancer or Keldon Marauders. The reason it got snubbed is mainly due to the fact it isn't great with Kiln Fiend or for getting blocker out of the way "right now". Turn one guide, turn two Searing Blaze your blocker is often unrecoverable tempo and damage for your opponent. Grim, uncontested, is so much damage and rapes decks like Merfolk, Elves, Goblins etc... He is also kind a flag bearer for removal spells making Kiln Fiend more likely to go uncontested himself. If you ran Burn w/ Kiln Fiend, he would get killed all the time and rarely work. Marauders are 5 potential damage for 2 mana, they are great against removal and are even good for playing defense while you go to their dome.

My Sideboard
4 Sulfuric Vortex - It has been amazing. Stops Jitte, Rhox Warmonk, Sword of Light and Shadow etc... right as they get online. While also providing pretty decent damage and being hard to get rid of. It won me a game against a deck that dropped Zuran Orb as well. (Boarded in kind of a lot)

4 Vexing Shusher - Fits great into sligh. Hell an uncounterable 2/2 for 2 is decent and he guarantees spells connect. Casting a Price of Progress for 8 damage or Fireblast for lethal, knowing they are powerless to stop it is quite fun. He is also great against Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. (Boarded in a lot, blue is very popular)

4 Faerie Macabre - My graveyard hate of choice. This deck is mediocre against Reanimator (one of my two losses) and people can play around or counter other GY hate cards like Tormod's Crypt. It is crippling to hit Reanimator targets in response or would be solid for getting rid of Life From the Loam type cards. (Rarely boarded in)

3 Pyrostatic Pillar - For combo decks. (Haven't boarded it in yet, faced zero combo so far)

It should be noted Vortex, Shusher and Pillar can also be boarded in if cards are dead (For example: Searing Blaze vs creatureless or PoP vs all basics) and provide decent spells even if they don't "hate" on the deck. A resolved Vortex against control or a slow clock deck can be a ton of damage and pillar is good against something like aggro elves or something else kind of janky that runs all basics.

I agree on the Macabre, im just not sure yet if i prefer them over Relics, but i think i do. Shusher is also a good go i think.

Why no Volcanic fallout/etc...? Because we already run so much burn, we can easily burn them down? Vs. merfolk the card does seem good.

And last: No arti-hate like smash to smithereens? I think we really need some answer to chalice. And i like Smash to do that job. Im not so sure about the pillars, the combo matchup seems very unfavorable anyway, and i think that maybe mindbreak trap could be better in this slot, since you could also use it against goblins or smthn.

So from the top of my head my sideboard(untested):
4 fearie macabre
4 vexing shusher
3 mindbreak trap
4 smash to smithereens

Totally untested, but I think it covers most of the problems. Any comments? :)

~Maarten

[Grollub]

The zoo matchup concerns me. The newer lists from this thread are looking strong and streamlined however vs zoo I think we are in trouble. They'll save burn to make sure they can handle kiln and they're often packing helix (lifegain). Also, they're creatures are fatter and they have more of them... best strategy I can see surprising them with a PoP as I think they have the advantge in every other way.
It's not that bad, we're much more aggresive and Zoo isn't really well equiped to handle a massive attack in the early turns (before the troublesome creatures get big). Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are the only creatures that aren't easily burn-able and you got a clear burn advantage (Searing Blaze is really strong here), the random Price of Progress or Fireblast wins puts the match on about even grounds I'd say. Card by card Zoo got the upperhand, but the sheer "aggresiveness" of Sligh gives us an upperhand overall I'd say.

Pre-board I think it's slightly in Slighs favor, but post board it's looking grim if Zoo is prepared for it. I've been considering Countryside Crusher as a possible solution -- fat that can compete, and gives better draws, another route could be Wastelands to push Zoo into the defensive role faster which also happens to be a fantastic card against control matches.
........

I don't think just three cards are enough to swing a combo match, we either need more SB slots or abandon this match up entirely. Meh.

[kicks_422]

Well, there IS a Goyf Sligh thread here somewhere for those that run Goyfs. Better separate the discussion for RG lists from those wanting to stay mono-red for whatever reason.

[troopatroop]

The zoo matchup concerns me. The newer lists from this thread are looking strong and streamlined however vs zoo I think we are in trouble. They'll save burn to make sure they can handle kiln and they're often packing helix (lifegain). Also, they're creatures are fatter and they have more of them... best strategy I can see surprising them with a PoP as I think they have the advantge in every other way.

Searing Blaze is MVP. We run more burn to deal with their creatures, and I run Tarmogoyf as well. PoP can absolutely own them. All of our cards are good against theirs, I don't see the issue really. It's probably 50-50 because of Knight of the Reliquary.

Should I necro the Goyf Sligh thread?

[Muradin]

I am still not sure which amount of lands is the right one for this deck, 18 or 20? It feels that hitting at least your first 2 land drops is absolutely crucial, especially with zero library manipulation and thus I tend to rather include 20 but then you sometimes get flooded in the early game when you want to topdeck burn spells.

[1maarten1]

I am still not sure which amount of lands is the right one for this deck, 18 or 20? It feels that hitting at least your first 2 land drops is absolutely crucial, especially with zero library manipulation and thus I tend to rather include 20 but then you sometimes get flooded in the early game when you want to topdeck burn spells.

Im running 18, and havent had any troubles with that yet. Also: i agree with Grollub on the storm combo match. My sideboard looks like this atm:

4 vexing shusher
4 fearie macabre
4 smash to smithereens
3 volcanic fallout

Any comments/thoughts?

~Maarten

[YrdBrd72803]

While playing Legacy on MTGO, I see a ton of Rhox War Monks as well Jittes and Swords (Death and Taxes packing Stoneforge Mystic is really popular atm). Maybe your meta is different, but shouldnt Sulfuric Vortex or even Flames of the Blood Hand appear somewhere in the 75?

[Angelfire]

Volcanic Fallout kills Goblin Guide, Kiln Fiend and Grim Lavamancer. A good sideboard card for Burn, not so much for Sligh. Life gain wrecks this deck more than waves of creatures. Sulfuric Vortex has won me a bunch of games and is the better sideboard slot overall.

Note: a very important factor when determining sideboard is YOUR meta. No one sideboard fits every meta, even if your deck is the same. There are superior and inferior SB choices, but the discussion should be about a larger pool and make choices based on your meta.

[1maarten1]

Volcanic Fallout kills Goblin Guide, Kiln Fiend and Grim Lavamancer. A good sideboard card for Burn, not so much for Sligh. Life gain wrecks this deck more than waves of creatures. Sulfuric Vortex has won me a bunch of games and is the better sideboard slot overall.

Note: a very important factor when determining sideboard is YOUR meta. No one sideboard fits every meta, even if your deck is the same. There are superior and inferior SB choices, but the discussion should be about a larger pool and make choices based on your meta.

You are right, wasnt sure about the fallouts anyway. I'll go try out vortex :)
which makes my sb:
4 vexing shusher
4 fearie macabre
4 smash to smithereens
3 sulfuric vortex

Thoughts on cards like Anarchy/REB? I cant really find place for such...

Also i'll just test Relic in place of Macabre, even though im quite satisfied over this card, just for the Ichorid matchup where Relic is strictly better.

~Maarten

[Angelfire]

REB never deals damage and is easily countered by CB. I much prefer Shusher. Anarchy is amazing if you face a white heavy meta. The only thing I would kill is the occasional Qasali and Rhox War Monk.

[YrdBrd72803]

Im on a pretty tight budget and was wondering if you think your list would work as well without the fetches Angelfire?

[Angelfire]

Im on a pretty tight budget and was wondering if you think your list would work as well without the fetches Angelfire?

Yes they are by no means necessary. It makes Grim Lavamancer a little worse, Searing Blaze a spec worse (you can't ever deal 3 on your opponent's turn) and you will draw an extra land a negligible amount of the time (less deck thinning). On the plus side you won't take the 1 life loss, you will pump Goyf less and Stifle doesn't become 1 mana instant Sink Hole. Hmmmm, almost talking myself out of running them myself lol

[YrdBrd72803]

Yes they are by no means necessary. It makes Grim Lavamancer a little worse, Searing Blaze a spec worse (you can't ever deal 3 on your opponent's turn) and you will draw an extra land a negligible amount of the time (less deck thinning). On the plus side you won't take the 1 life loss, you will pump Goyf less and Stifle doesn't become 1 mana instant Sink Hole. Hmmmm, almost talking myself out of running them myself lolThanks. Glad I could help lol. If you were to replace them with basics, would you alter your land count at all? Or is 18 about where you really want it regardless?

[JohnnyCage]

Instead of vortex we have been having great success with everlasting torment.

[markbris]

Instead of vortex we have been having great success with everlasting torment.

any reason to run this over vortex? I guess it helps against glacial chasm, but why do you like it over vortex? Its not like there are alot of prevention effects in legacy iirc.

[YrdBrd72803]

I would assume Everlasting Torment helps fight annoying large blockers (looking at you Goyf and War Monk) since it turns all damage dealt to creatures into -1/-1 counters while still turning off lifegain and has the added benefit of stopping any kind of prevention effects.
Vortex just feels so much more in line with what the deck wants to do though. It shuts off lifegain and deals damage at the same time.
However, cant argue is someones done the testing to prove otherwise.

[troopatroop]

Instead of vortex we have been having great success with everlasting torment.

Ya see, this is your problem. You stand behind circumstancial evidence instead of facts. How do you justify that as better?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Ya see, this is your problem. You stand behind circumstancial evidence instead of facts. How do you justify that as better?

Just a guess, but it turns your small 2/2 from being stupidly chump blockable with a goyf into a withering annoyance. From previous comments he's been testing a lot against UW Tempo, and since Mom is a big bitch when you play essentially 1 color, this pretty much neuters her (Stops pro colors from doing anything). It makes Searing Blaze good against decks that only run things like Goyf + Tombstalker, and also means you don't have to spend 2 spells to stop Rhox War Monk.

Actually that does seem a lot better.

[troopatroop]

Just a guess, but it turns your small 2/2 from being stupidly chump blockable with a goyf into a withering annoyance. From previous comments he's been testing a lot against UW Tempo, and since Mom is a big bitch when you play essentially 1 color, this pretty much neuters her (Stops pro colors from doing anything). It makes Searing Blaze good against decks that only run things like Goyf + Tombstalker, and also means you don't have to spend 2 spells to stop Rhox War Monk.

Actually that does seem a lot better.

I'll admit, I should RTFC. Spells are sources, and would then have Wither. I'm actually gonna give the card a shot, it actually seems really strong with Grim Lavamancer and Tarmogoyfs of my own. I'll admit I was wrong, it's probably pretty good.

[Angelfire]

The main reason I don't run Everlasting Torment is that it is bad in multiples. Vortex always deals more damage so it "stacks", Everlasting Torment is "dead" in multiples. I can also board in Vortex if cards like Price of Progress are dead, Torment does not fill this role as well. I will probably run 3 Vortex and 1 Torment :)

[JohnnyCage]

Phoenix remember that time I worked all day and couldn't post. And then you said most my points. Not to mention a lot of decks are running an e tutor package and either story circle or cop red. I'm referencing land still and sadly rifter which is my pet deck. But its primary function is how it. Allows you to, like phoenix said deal with threats otherwise unable to be dealt with. It buys you so many turns making that 4/5 goyf a 1/2.

[Sevryn]

I'm on board with Kiln Fiend... the guy is a beast. No really, he is an elemental beast. I love him.

With 6-8 fetchlands, Searing Blaze should be easy to support. Fetchlands also have synergy with Grim Lavamancer. What do people think of running some number of Sensei's Divining Top? I think the deck is too tight to run Shrapnel Blast, but 2-3 SDT can really smooth draws out if the game goes "long" (as in past turn 4...), extra tops can be shuffled away, and it usually taps to draw the winning burn spell. Combined with magma jet, fetchlands, and manamorphose, SDT can see a lot of cards even without activating it every turn (mana intensive).

I think Shard Volley should see some more love in this deck, since its 'drawback' actually helps fuel Grim. Lightning Bolt is worth 3 + 1 damage with Grim on the table, while Shard Volley is worth 3 + 2. Four may not be the correct number to run, as multiples can be difficult to use, but 2-3 sounds good to me.

[Mesercus]

fetchlands + searing blaze and lavamancer is better than fetchlands +taigas/goyf-small green creatures amd k-grip?
Besides that i don't think you need the slow sdt , your topdeck are often burns or lands (not a bad topdeck with searing blaze).

[DivineChaos]

I may test the Kiln Fiend version later but right now I have something that looks like this:


4 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Plated Geopede

4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Reckless Charge

Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Jotun Grunt

Reckless charge opens up the ability of turn 2 kill and just generally increases the clock by adding haste

Sideboard was kinda thrown together for testing purposes. Path to get rid of blockers normally takes out helix or Rift bolt. Might turn that into searing blaze. Jotun grunt to make Goyf smaller. Duerger Hedge medge for pesky enchants and artifacts. Sulfuric for the obvious reasons.


What do you guys think about adding a taiga just so we can have Krosan grip as a silver bullet against jitte and counterbalance in the board? Not gonna add Goyf or anygreen crits but Grip seems a lot more effective than Hedge Mage.

[1maarten1]

I may test the Kiln Fiend version later but right now I have something that looks like this:


4 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Plated Geopede

4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Reckless Charge

Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Jotun Grunt

Reckless charge opens up the ability of turn 2 kill and just generally increases the clock by adding haste

Sideboard was kinda thrown together for testing purposes. Path to get rid of blockers normally takes out helix or Rift bolt. Might turn that into searing blaze. Jotun grunt to make Goyf smaller. Duerger Hedge medge for pesky enchants and artifacts. Sulfuric for the obvious reasons.


What do you guys think about adding a taiga just so we can have Krosan grip as a silver bullet against jitte and counterbalance in the board? Not gonna add Goyf or anygreen crits but Grip seems a lot more effective than Hedge Mage.

Looks more like a boros deck to me ;) Nice list, but i would necro that thread with it :P! Interested to see the fiend version tho!

~Maarten

[DragoFireheart]

How has Kiln Fiend been? Does it give this deck type an added boost to be more than just another Legacy deck?

[troopatroop]

I'm sure everyone here can say the same, but Kiln Fiend is everything you could ask for in a two drop. He "usually" eats a removal spell, but for all the times he doesn't, he's an absolute beast. Even casting 1 spell makes him a 4/2, and that's fine. A couple, which is generally pretty easy with Manamorphose, Rift Bolt, and 1cc Burn can get him to 10/2 or even 13/2. Against something like ANT or Reanimator, that's a biiig problem.

EDIT: So I've started experimenting with a new build, tell me what you think.

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Plated Geopede

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
3 Rift Bolt
3 Reckless Charge
2 Fireblast

4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
8 Red Fetches

This list abandons Tarmogoyf, but becomes a good deal faster. Steppe Lynx -> Reckless Charge is Great, Kiln Fiend -> Reckless Charge isn't bad either. No room for Manamorphose though, which is worth noting. EDIT2: More changes! -3 Path -1 Searing Blaze -3 Grim Lavamancer, +4 Plated Geopede +3 Rift bolt. Just burn spells now.

[Angelfire]

Update on MWS testing: I am currently 50-6 in games (a decent amount of people leave after I beat them in Game 1 as well). I have lost just one match and my opponent got 2 Goyfs early in all three games and I got mana screwed in Game 3. The damage from Sulfuric Vortex is amazing and I board it in a lot.

My List
//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

//Burn
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze

//Mana
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Faeries Macabre
3 Shattering Spree (I have never boarded these in)

[1maarten1]

Update on MWS testing: I am currently 50-6 in games (a decent amount of people leave after I beat them in Game 1 as well). I have lost just one match and my opponent got 2 Goyfs early in all three games and I got mana screwed in Game 3. The damage from Sulfuric Vortex is amazing and I board it in a lot.

My List
//Threats
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Field
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders

//Burn
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze

//Mana
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Faeries Macabre
3 Shattering Spree (I have never boarded these in)

I prefer Smash to smithereens over spree, since smash also deals damage to players. On the other hand: spree beats chalice which spree doesnt, but i dont see people put chalice on 2 too often :P.

For the rest, i run the same MD and almost the same SB, and I am very satisfied about it! :D

~Maarten

[Jon Stewart]

All the new lists look awesome. But I'm perfectly pleased with my list, with 11 creatures total. Great testing results Angelfire. I've had really good results with my build from the OP as well, but they're not as lopsided as 50-6 though.

The only real difference between your list and mine is that I play Rift Bolt where you play Searing Blaze maindeck.

Perhaps it's a mistake not to play Searing Blaze, as I do find myself siding it fairly often.

But have you ever had Searing Blaze whiff on you? Basically, you don't have a land to play that turn that you need to use Searing Blaze, or your opponent doesn't play creatures at all (Reanimator, Combo, Burn etc), or even when the creature they have has more than 3 toughness? The first two scenarios really screw the card up it seems like.

I can't see a good reason not to play Rift Bolt. It's such a strong and flexible card, basically, Lightning Bolt 9-12. Have you tested the card before deciding to cut it?

Overall, you have a really solid list Angelfire, congrats. :)



I'll agree with 1marteen that you should play Smash to Simithereens over Spree in the board. Smash is like Searing Blaze. You destroy an artifact, AND deal 3 damage to your opponent, so even if all you destroy with it is a Chrome Mox or a Sensei's Top, you still got your money's worth and then some, because you wasted an opponents turn without wasting your own. But when you take out Trinispheres, Jittes and Chalice at 1s (thats what people set Chalice to vs. Burn anyways), you will be incredibly pleased.

[Angelfire]

I run Rift Bolt in my burn deck and my Boros deck and it has won me games. I actually cut it before testing it (there was just never room for it and it is lack luster with Kiln Fiend). However, I don't own any Searing Blazes in real life and have been unable to find any at my local card shop. So for this weeks tourney I was actually gonna run Rift Bolt in its place. And to answer your question: yes it has "whiffed" or been bad as a late game topdeck, but when it works it is maybe the best burn spell in the deck. My brother and I were discussing that maybe a flukey card (in this case Searing Blaze) just doesn't belong in a good deck, run by a good player (consistency is often a more solid plan).

In regards to Smash to Smithereens vs Shattering Spree: Spree is great against decks you board in artifact hate for, specifically Stax variants and Affinity. I have raped both of those decks with a single Spree that a Smash would only dent. I think Smash is a fantastic card and is probably a better choice for a deck like Burn to run, however Shattering Spree has won me a bunch of games in the past. Also, I own zero Smash to Smithereens and am looking to acquire some, but that is another reason :)

[yuanshi23]

Hey guys, just wanted to tell you all that I'm going to a tourney on May 8th, and once again need help with the sideboard. I'm running a list similar to Angelfire's, but here's what I'm up against....

- Countertop decks (some Supreme Blue variations, and Grindstone Mill Countertop. Oh, there will be Rhox Warmonks)
- Affinity (Easily sided against)
- Landstill
- Zoo
- Dreamhalls (?!?!???!)
- Possibly ANT
- Merfolk (With the new level-up general)

It's a small 16 person tourney, but so far, I know for a fact these decks are the meta for this tourney. Question is, how should my sideboard look like?

So far, I have this for my sideboard ...

- Tormod's Crypt x3 (Might try out Faerie Macabre instead)
- Red Elemental Blast x2
- Pyroblast x1
- Vexing Shusher x2
- Volcanic Fallout x2
- Sulfuric Vortex x2
- Shattering Spree x3

Is there anything I can change to make this more efficient for me on games 2 and 3?

[Jon Stewart]

I'm not sure what you should sideboard but here's some cards to consider...

Pyrostatic Pillar (vs. ANT and other combo)
Searing Blaze (If you're not playing it maindeck)
Smash to Smithereens (if the merfolk deck plays jitte along with aether vial, you can bring this in to slow them down without hurting your clock, otherwise, play vs. grindstone painter countertop)
Shattering Spree (vs Affinity)
Magus of the Moon (vs. Countertop Bant, Zoo etc).

And then, there's
Red Elemental Blast
and
Price of Progress

which it seems you already play.

Tell us how it goes.

[1maarten1]

Hey guys, just wanted to tell you all that I'm going to a tourney on May 8th, and once again need help with the sideboard. I'm running a list similar to Angelfire's, but here's what I'm up against....

- Countertop decks (some Supreme Blue variations, and Grindstone Mill Countertop. Oh, there will be Rhox Warmonks)
- Affinity (Easily sided against)
- Landstill
- Zoo
- Dreamhalls (?!?!???!)
- Possibly ANT
- Merfolk (With the new level-up general)

It's a small 16 person tourney, but so far, I know for a fact these decks are the meta for this tourney. Question is, how should my sideboard look like?

So far, I have this for my sideboard ...

- Tormod's Crypt x3 (Might try out Faerie Macabre instead)
- Red Elemental Blast x2
- Pyroblast x1
- Vexing Shusher x2
- Volcanic Fallout x2
- Sulfuric Vortex x2
- Shattering Spree x3

Is there anything I can change to make this more efficient for me on games 2 and 3?

Ok, you will be needing alot more than just a 4 off, too make the combo match in little more favorable. I dont think its worth it. Rather get 4 sulfuric vortex, which rocked my (and Angelfire's) world in testing. If you expect Affinity, spree is fine. Cut the Fallouts, for reasons stated by Angelfire earlier. Pyroblast/REB is fine against Folk, but I prefered more shushers in my testing. The new ''level'' lord shouldnt be a problem, just burn it off early. I would definitly play Searing Blaze MD against that meta. It really owns against Zoo, also against Folk/Affinity.

Will be looking forward to your result!

~Maarten

[Angelfire]

I ran Sligh today at my local tournament, went 6-1 and placed 2nd.

Round 1: Countertop w/ Natural Order 2-0
Game 1 Goblin Guide deals a ton of damage and he falls far behind in life/tempo.
He has 4 CoP: Red in the board but doesn't see any Game 2.

Round 2: Bant Survival 2-0
Game 1 I power through a Kitchen Finks and manage to burn him out. Game 2 he drops Loxodon Hierarch one turn 3, next turn I drop Sulfuric Vortex. He finishes the game with Finks, Rhox Warmonk, Stoneforge Mystic (which grabbed Jitte) and maybe another Loxodon Hierarch in hand or in play. I drop a second Vortex and drop him to 3 and say go while he has lethal attackers on the board. Safe to say Vortex won me Game 2.

Round 3: Vial Goblins (my friend) 2-1
Close match that went to Game 3. I won the match because of Piledriver not getting the power from SGC tokens being used to slay my blockers. His alpha strike brings me to 2, I topdeck Guide and Fireblast him (he was at 6).

Round 4: Counter top w/ Painter's Servant 2-1
Kind of like Round 1. I play around Countertop pretty well. I lost game 2 to Painter/Grindstone.

Round 5: Dreadstill 2-0
More burn than counters. He Spell Snared a Vexing Shusher in Game 2 and I burned him out with Dreadnought ready to swing lethal in one of the games.

Round 6: Dreadstill Rematch 2-1
Game 1 is close but I pull it out. Game 2 I die to four 5/6 Goyf swings before I can burn him out. Game 3 he drops Standstill with a factory online. I try and build a good hand while he whittles me down with Factory. He pops the Standstill early to Stifle/Nought, but he also tries to Stifle Standstill and the judge and I inform him that I draw 3 still. I now have 10 cards in hand and end step Bolt, Bolt, Price of Progress (he Forces PoP). I drop Shusher and burn the shit out of him on my turn, suspend a Rift Bolt and say go. He Bashes for 14 (my life total), I block Factory w/ a Guide or Grim and go to 2. My turn I shoot him w/ Rift Bolt and Fireblast him backed w/ Shusher for the game.

Round 7: Vial Goblins Rematch 1-2
Game 1 is real close but I lose. Game 2 is also close (due to Thorn of Amethyst x2), but I pull it out thanks mainly to Keldon Marauders x2. Game 3 is brutal. He goes turn one Lackey, I answer w/ Chain Lightning. He drops a Thorn on turn 2, I cast double Guide and bash his face (I see him flip a Gempalm, which I know is gonna suck). Next turn I bash into an empty board, he draws a Wasteland. He then Gempalms one my Guides. I drop Kiln Fiend and he Pyrokinesises both my dudes. He drops another Thorn which slows me down too much and I lose.

I am happy with a 6-1 performance though.

[Jon Stewart]

Awesome performance Angelfire. Congrats and thanks for the quick report, it was a fun read.

It looks like you put the Rift Bolts back into the deck, what did you cut for them?

Did you make any other changes?

How did you like the changes that you ended up making?

How often was Searing Blaze useful?

[markbris]

Awesome performance Angelfire. Congrats and thanks for the quick report, it was a fun read.

It looks like you put the Rift Bolts back into the deck, what did you cut for them?

Did you make any other changes?

How did you like the changes that you ended up making?

How often was Searing Blaze useful?

He said he was running rift bolts over the searing blaze because he doesn't own any blaze in real life yet.

[Grollub]

Any changes to your last posted list?


Round 5: Dreadstill 2-0
More burn than counters. He Spell Snared a Vexing Shusher in Game 2 and I burned him out with Dreadnought ready to swing lethal in one of the games.
How'd he Spell Snare a Vexing Shusher?

Nice to see Sligh claiming heads! :)

[Plague Sliver]

Sick list, Angelfire. I'm going to give it a whirl.

Have you thought about adding more fetchlands in order to power out more Lavamancer activations?
And would Barbarian Ring be a good fit for the deck, or would you prefer to keep the deck wasteland-immune?

[Grollub]

I've had some succes with Runeflare Trap in the board, it's been really handy versus combo and standstill decks and everything with Brainstorm. Not exactly sure there's space in the board for it, but I felt it was worth noting the potential.

[Angelfire]

Awesome performance Angelfire. Congrats and thanks for the quick report, it was a fun read.

It looks like you put the Rift Bolts back into the deck, what did you cut for them?

Did you make any other changes?

How did you like the changes that you ended up making?

How often was Searing Blaze useful?

Yeah I wrote a quick report because I wanted to give an idea of match-ups without boring details and I took zero notes. I guess this is my first tournament report (though not my first tournament success by any means) and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

As was mentioned, I cut Searing Blazes for Rift Bolt. I also ran 3 Tormod's Crypt over Faeirie Macabre (I sideboarded them in zero times).

Rift Bolt was solid. Searing Blaze would have probably been better versus Vial Goblins, but I cannot be sure because it is not great against the Thorn of Amethyst he was dropping.



How'd he Spell Snare a Vexing Shusher?

Nice to see Sligh claiming heads! :)

You can target Shusher with counter spells, they just don't do anything :)

Sligh killed a lot of Planeswalkers yesterday :)



Sick list, Angelfire. I'm going to give it a whirl.

Have you thought about adding more fetchlands in order to power out more Lavamancer activations?
And would Barbarian Ring be a good fit for the deck, or would you prefer to keep the deck wasteland-immune?

I have never had an active Lavamancer and not been able to activate him. On turns 1-3 I am usually going to spend all my mana on spells anyway as well. It is very common for me to be able to use Grim 3-5 times in a game. I don't like Barbarian Ring for a number of reasons: It deals you kind of a lot of damage, opens you up to Wasteland (and other nonbasic hate like PoP), threshold is kind of hard especially with Grim and it is bad with 4 Fireblast in the deck (makes double Fireblast a pipe dream).

[Justin]

Regarding Angelfire's list: I'm going to second the recomendation for more fetches. Not only would this help Grim Lavamancer and Searing Blaze, but it would also allow you to run Plated Geopede over Keldon Marauders. I'm thinking that 10-12 fetches sounds right. Not so many decks maindeck Stifle in this format anymore, as Dreadought has fallen from grace. Because of this, you don't need to be shy about upping your fetchland count in mono-colored decks.

[Angelfire]

To quote myself - "I have never had an active Lavamancer and not been able to activate him. On turns 1-3 I am usually going to spend all my mana on spells anyway as well. It is very common for me to be able to use Grim 3-5 times in a game."

This is in ~80 games of testing. I don't run 10-12 fetches because of the life loss more than the fear of Stifle. Plated Geopede is awful late game (relying on land drops is not good) and is not guaranteed damage.

[Sevryn]

Plated Geopede is awful late game (relying on land drops is not good) and is not guaranteed damage.

Has anyone tested Zektar Shrine Expedition (with fetchlands)? Potentially seven damage off of one card is some good, maybe not enough without Flagstones of Trokair or Ghost Quarter in the deck for triple landfall turns.

[Angelfire]

Has anyone tested Zektar Shrine Expedition (with fetchlands)? Potentially seven damage off of one card is some good, maybe not enough without Flagstones of Trokair or Ghost Quarter in the deck for triple landfall turns.

Ball Lightning would be better and it doesn't make the cut already. Consistency is the key to this deck's success. Which is why I gotta say the Shrine, Geopede and maybe even Searing Blaze don't belong. Late game lands are not something you can rely on or want to rely on, especially when they are your 4th+ land.

[Hanni]

I don't understand the fascination over midrange cards. If you want midrange, play Zoo. The point of Sligh is to give up stability for speed. You become a glass cannon, but your clock improves by a full turn. The deck can very often race disruption like Counterbalance in this way, improves its combo matchup significantly, and the deck has an extremely positive aggro matchup (Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, etc).

I've been toying with Sligh for a long time now. They've continued to print cards that improve the deck dramatically and it's actually been just recently that I feel this deck has gained the tools to become a top tier deck.

Originally, I ran 4 Tarmogoyf and 2 Grim Lavamancer. During continual testing, I slowly came to find both of them being too slow. The soonest Goyf can swing is turn 3, oftentimes as a 3/4, sometimes even as bad as a 2/3. In fact, all 2cc creatures just don't fit the bill for me anymore in this archtype, barring some 2cc with Haste gets printed. Grim Lavamancer requires too heavy of a mana investment for the damage it can produce, and I found myself not needing the extra midgame strength it offered.

This is what I'm currently running:

R/W/g Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [A] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
2 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [ZEN] Burst Lightning
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
2 [WWK] Searing Blaze
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The deck focuses on consistency and speed. 12 1 drop critters makes dropping a guy on turn 1 very frequent. All 3 creatures are very aggressive and can dish out alot of damage by turn 3 (6 damage on average for 1 mana invested). With only 12 creatures, the deck is able to dedicate the majority of its spells to burn. This allows the deck to very easily switch roles, should the opponent have creature removal, big blockers, etc. The increase of 1cc burn spells allows the deck to curve out more efficiently in the first few turns, which is where it really matters. The ability to burn a blocker and drop a guy on the same turn makes a huge difference in the decks fundamental clock.

Of course the deck does have glaring weaknesses as well, like tempo decks (Stifle/Wasteland), Chalice decks that resolve it before it's too late, among others. That's the disadvantage to being a glass cannon, but it does improves alot of shaky matchups that Zoo has, so I find it to be a fair tradeoff. As far as aggressive aggro decks go, you won't find one that's more aggressive than this. The deck has a very consistent turn 3 goldfish. Against disruptions to the gameplan like creature removal, I still find myself winning by turn 4 very often.

[kicks_422]

Kiln Fiend would look really nice there, in such a burn-heavy build. Probably over the Burst Lightnings?

[Hanni]

If I was going to run Kiln, it would be in place of the 2 Searing Blaze. Burst Lightning has been too clutch for me, and also makes Kiln that much better. My problem with Kiln is that it swings at turn 3 at the earliest while consuming my entire turn 2's mana production and completely kills my clock if it eats any sort of removal spell. On the surface, it seems to reduce overall consistency of executing the gameplan by adding increased midgame strength, similar to what Goyf and Grim Lavamancer do, which I dismissed in earlier testings. If it had haste, trample, or untargetability, I'd be sold. Without those, a 2cc x/2 just screams vulnerability. The deck is already vulnerable to LD and Chalice, I'd hate to further expamd the glass cannon to creature removal too.

I'm sure that dropping 2 Searing Blaze for 2 Kiln Fiend doesn't make that big of an impact so it doesn't hurt to make the switch, but I'm not convinced that it's going to improve anything.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm pretty sure it makes no sense not to run Kiln Fiend in this archetype. I mean, yeah, it dies to removal... Just like every creature that you are running (Lynx, Guide, and Nacatl). It is also a must-answer threat that can turn a mediocre hand into a blowout in your favor really quick.

On another topic, recently I've been very curious about trying to make a Boros Sligh type deck. It seems to me that Steppe Lynx and Jotun Grunt are pretty ridiculous creatures in conjunction with lots o' fetchlands and burn, and I would plan on supplementing them with Goblin Guide and Kiln Fiend, possibly also Grim Lavamancer. Hell, even Lightning Helix is decent, I would certainly consider it comparable to Searing Blaze in terms of power level. I know there's been some slight discussion of the "white splash" around here, but does anyone have any ideas about this option? Strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons, that sort of thing?

EDIT:

Here's a sample list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

2 Manamorphose
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Plateau
2 Mountain

...Thoughts?

[Hanni]

I'm pretty sure it makes no sense not to run Kiln Fiend in this archetype. I mean, yeah, it dies to removal... Just like every creature that you are running (Lynx, Guide, and Nacatl). It is also a must-answer threat that can turn a mediocre hand into a blowout in your favor really quick.

The other creatures only cost 1 mana, so if they use a removal spell on it, it doesn't destroy nearly as much of my tempo or momentum. The difference between 1cc and 2cc is so rediculously huge in this style deck. Kiln is able to swing by turn 3 at the earliest, consuming my entire turn 2 mana production in the process. Most decks will have an answer by then. Not all decks will have an answer to a 4/5 swinging on turn 2.

Most hands aren't mediocre because of the decks consistency, and the only time Kiln turns hands into blowouts is when it actually is able to successfully swing for 7+ on turn 3. While I'm not saying that's not very possible, the deck doesn't need to rely on a vulnerable 2cc creature to still have 20+ damage dealt by turn 3. Hell, by turn 3, it's possible that the opponent has a blocker with 4+ toughness to simply block him (Goyf). I'm not saying he's not immensly powerful by any means, I'm saying that he trades consistency for power in a deck that relies on its consistency and doesn't need the extra power. Most of the hands where he would cause a blowout on turn 3, more than likely wouldn't need him to still be a blowout.

But like I said, the 2 Searing Blazes are not necessary for the deck to function, and can just as easily be 2 Kiln Fiends.

[Exospaciac]

If I was going to run Kiln, it would be in place of the 2 Searing Blaze. Burst Lightning has been too clutch for me, and also makes Kiln that much better. My problem with Kiln is that it swings at turn 3 at the earliest while consuming my entire turn 2's mana production and completely kills my clock if it eats any sort of removal spell. On the surface, it seems to reduce overall consistency of executing the gameplan by adding increased midgame strength, similar to what Goyf and Grim Lavamancer do, which I dismissed in earlier testings. If it had haste, trample, or untargetability, I'd be sold. Without those, a 2cc x/2 just screams vulnerability. The deck is already vulnerable to LD and Chalice, I'd hate to further expamd the glass cannon to creature removal too.

I'm sure that dropping 2 Searing Blaze for 2 Kiln Fiend doesn't make that big of an impact so it doesn't hurt to make the switch, but I'm not convinced that it's going to improve anything.

Seems like Reckless Charge would fix a lot of your woes about Kiln Fiend, while also making Steppe Lynx better, too.
Adding 4 Fiends and 2-3 Reckless Charge would help speed the deck up even more, which is the whole purpose of Sligh over Zoo, right?

Also, how often do you get the mana to kick Burst Lightning? Shouldn't the game be over by the time you get 5 mana?
I dunno, I could be way off in thinking that though.

[1maarten1]

Seems like Reckless Charge would fix a lot of your woes about Kiln Fiend, while also making Steppe Lynx better, too.
Adding 4 Fiends and 2-3 Reckless Charge would help speed the deck up even more, which is the whole purpose of Sligh over Zoo, right?

Also, how often do you get the mana to kick Burst Lightning? Shouldn't the game be over by the time you get 5 mana?
I dunno, I could be way off in thinking that though.

Yea, I saw a somewhat alike Naya sligh list run Charge, and it was kinda insane. I think that in multicolored lists, fiend is replaceble with better 1 drops, but when im testing my mono red list i havent really had that much troubles with it. So i will do some further testing on fiend, and see what I come up with.

That said, I run 3 searing blaze MD, and they really rock! Same thing for lavamancer, those 2 helped me alot in the zoo/merfolk matchup. I never found lavamancer too be too slow or something, but maybe thats just my way of using it.

And i'll give you an example of why i think you should run Reckless Charge in Naya sligh Hanni:
Turn 1: Drop land, Drop Nacatl
Turn 2: Play lynx, play fetch, pop fetch, charge the lynx --> attack for 10

Seems very, very strong to me.

~Maarten

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

EDIT:

Here's a sample list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

2 Manamorphose
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Plateau
2 Mountain

...Thoughts?

Just wanted to re-post this, since I edited it in after the flurry of activity just now. I'd really like some critique on the idea (which I realize isn't entirely original but whatevs), positive or negative, just as long as it's constructive.

[Hanni]

Seems like Reckless Charge would fix a lot of your woes about Kiln Fiend, while also making Steppe Lynx better, too.
Adding 4 Fiends and 2-3 Reckless Charge would help speed the deck up even more, which is the whole purpose of Sligh over Zoo, right?

Also, how often do you get the mana to kick Burst Lightning? Shouldn't the game be over by the time you get 5 mana?
I dunno, I could be way off in thinking that though

Reckless Charge is dependant on creatures, which makes it a bad burn spell. Not a bad card per say, but it again decreases consistency at the expense of power. The deck doesn't need the extra power to still lay the smack down with turn 3 goldfishes and turn 4 actual wins vs opponent's. I've seen a few people go the Reckless Charge route, which isn't bad, but it requires a different shell. By different, I mean more creatures and less burn.

The Burst Lightnings are just there to be additional 1cc burn to remove early blockers or fill the curve during burnouts. It rarely if ever gets kicked, but it's the best 1cc burn spell after the ones I'm already running. The random times it does get kicked makes it better than cards like Seal of Fire or Tarfire which pump the opponent's Goyfs.


That said, I run 3 searing blaze MD, and they really rock! Same thing for lavamancer, those 2 helped me alot in the zoo/merfolk matchup. I never found lavamancer too be too slow or something, but maybe thats just my way of using it.

The problem with Searing Blaze is that it costs 2 mana and requires land drops to be truly good, meaning its conditional. Very powerful spell indeed, but I found 3 to be too much (too often I didn't have landfall when I needed it). As far as Lavamancer goes vs aggro, in higher creature count lower burn count decks, it is great, but in a deck like mine, I already have so much burn that those aggro matchups are already good.


Just wanted to re-post this, since I edited it in after the flurry of activity just now. I'd really like some critique on the idea (which I realize isn't entirely original but whatevs), positive or negative, just as long as it's constructive.

How often have you wished Lava Spike could target creatures? I tried it for a while but ultimately went with Burst Lightning because it could hit guys.

How has running 8 2cc guys been for you? I'd highly recommend cutting down on the Grunts or cutting them altogether during some testing to evaluate the difference in speed vs power. Grunt's not bad, but 4 seems like it may slow you down and maybe even clog you up if you draw multiples.

Other than that, everything looks solid.

[1maarten1]

Just wanted to re-post this, since I edited it in after the flurry of activity just now. I'd really like some critique on the idea (which I realize isn't entirely original but whatevs), positive or negative, just as long as it's constructive.

Ok after reading what Hanni said about the list, I'll throw in my thoughts. I agree that 4 grunts is too much, i would cut down to 2 (maybe 3). I think i would cut lava spike, for something like PtE maybe? It can get rid of bigger creatures, which might be a major thing.

Also, when you are running your grunt, you dont want to land a lavamancer next to it I think, so maybe running 4 of both is kinda overkill. I think that cutting lavamancer here might be the way to go. And if you want another 1 drop, maybe Isamaru, hound of konda is a idea? Or if you want something for midgame, Figure of destiny??

Also, I kinda like lightning helix, although there might be better options for that slot. I think that my list would personally look something like this:
// creatures 14
4 Steppe lynx
4 Goblin guide
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Figure of destiny

// spells 28
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 magma jet
4 path to exile
4 rift bolt
4 Fireblast
4 lightning helix

// lands 18
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
3 plateau
2 mountain
1 plains
4 wooded foothills

Just thought of this, so there might be some mistakes :P

Thoughts?

[Angelfire]

Thoughts?

Figure of Destiny is weak, especially compared to Kiln Fiend. I am also not a fan of Path to Exile in Sligh or Magma Jet really ever. Even Lava Spike is better than Magma Jet and Price of Progress is a bomb that should be included. Manamorphose (after you add Kiln Fiends) is better than Path. Manamorphose is also "food" for Jotun Grunt as a bonus.

[鳥肉さん]

Is Tarmogoyf truly too slow for this deck? Ive had some moderate success with him in a Rg sligh build, at least on MWS.

[anarkii]

Kiln Fiend I'm not sold on. Taking your entire mana pool turn 2 seems to be far too slow. It doesn't attack any sooner than Goyf, which many seem to be against the inclusion of. Realistically you'll swing for an average of 7ish with fiend on turn 3. When I compare them:

Goyf will swing for an average of 4 on turn 3. Kiln Fiend will swing for an average of 7ish on turn 3.
Fiend will likely get in 1 good swing and will taper off dramatically. Goyf doesn't have this limitation.
Goyf is a far better topdeck than Fiend.
Goyf has a much higher toughness and is thus less prone to removal.
Fiend being blocked more or less screws him over completely.

Also, any removal spell will obviously kill fiend, which really blows if you've already used your burn to remove their blockers to get him to connect. Fiend is not bad against combo but mediocre against any deck with creatures or removal, and just awful against any deck with both.

Also, Fiend will not consistently improve your clock. Sligh without Fiend is capable of turn 3-4 kills fairly often. Fiend only really facilitates a turn 3 kill when the other player has no removal and no blockers, and even then you'd need to draw a fair amount of the the best burn spells in the deck to pull it off.

[yuanshi23]

Well, not sure if anyone's interested, but....just went to a legacy tourney today, and....did horribly.

Of course, this is using Kiln Fiend sligh. I am sure that I was just unprepared for the meta this time, but it also goes to show that...this deck's not doing so well, in my opinion.

Round 1 - Enchantress 1-2

Game 1 turn 3 win by me
Game 2 he brings out *CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: RED* on turn two.
Game 3 he brings out Solidarity Confinement turn 3

I was just....not fast enough...? Didn't have the hate to go up against Enchantress...not like mono red can do anything against enchantments...

Round 2 - TES 0-2

Game 1 he turn one puts out 12 1/1 goblins.
Game 2 he gets turn 2 lethal tendrils.

Bad....matchup...?

Round 3 - Ichorid 0-2

Game 1 it was a close one, but he had a horrible starting hand, and still managed to win on turn 4 with a 9/9 Golgari Troll
Game 2 I get turn one Tormod's Crypt, and stabilize for 3 turns. However, I mulled to 6 just to get the Crypt, and the rest of the hand was mediocre. However, he plays around the crypt on turn 4, when he's at 4 life (needed a Fireblast...), and gets out an Ancestor's Chosen, putting his life to 40. GG.

So, I guess...I just had really bad luck? And possibly poor piloting skills? But overall, I believe that I made the best possible plays. It just wasn't enough in my environment.

Oh, but good news is that, I was doing damn well against the countertops in that tournament. Casual of course, never got to face them in the first rounds, but played later. I had REBs and Shushers sided in, and worked wonders. Racing them was quite easy. Went 2-1 against 2 Ctops

[Angelfire]

Kiln Fiend I'm not sold on. Taking your entire mana pool turn 2 seems to be far too slow. It doesn't attack any sooner than Goyf, which many seem to be against the inclusion of. Realistically you'll swing for an average of 7ish with fiend on turn 3. When I compare them:

Goyf will swing for an average of 4 on turn 3. Kiln Fiend will swing for an average of 7ish on turn 3.
Fiend will likely get in 1 good swing and will taper off dramatically. Goyf doesn't have this limitation.
Goyf is a far better topdeck than Fiend.
Goyf has a much higher toughness and is thus less prone to removal.
Fiend being blocked more or less screws him over completely.

Also, any removal spell will obviously kill fiend, which really blows if you've already used your burn to remove their blockers to get him to connect. Fiend is not bad against combo but mediocre against any deck with creatures or removal, and just awful against any deck with both.

Also, Fiend will not consistently improve your clock. Sligh without Fiend is capable of turn 3-4 kills fairly often. Fiend only really facilitates a turn 3 kill when the other player has no removal and no blockers, and even then you'd need to draw a fair amount of the the best burn spells in the deck to pull it off.

I have tested Kiln Fiend Sligh on MWS a lot. I am 58-6 with Kiln on MWS, I went 6-1 with it in a tournament and 3-1 with Goyf/Kiln Sligh.
Essentially Phage for 2 mana is too slow? Uncontested Fiend is almost a guaranteed turn 3 kill. Normal Burn or Sligh struggles to kill turn 3 without a "God Draw". If they kill Kiln Fiend you almost never lose card advantage or tempo advantage. If your opponent is not tapped out you don't put all your eggs in to Kiln Fiend's basket, it is that simple. It is also glorious to have spells countered and still have Kiln deal 7-10 damage. Goyf costs green mana (thus opens the door for nonbasic hate and damage from your own PoP), is worth $70 more, deals less damage (aka is slower) and he is still very good in the deck.

[Jon Stewart]

I have tested Kiln Fiend Sligh on MWS a lot. I am 58-6 with Kiln on MWS, I went 6-1 with it in a tournament and 3-1 with Goyf/Kiln Sligh.
Essentially Phage for 2 mana is too slow? Uncontested Fiend is almost a guaranteed turn 3 kill. Normal Burn or Sligh struggles to kill turn 3 without a "God Draw". If they kill Kiln Fiend you almost never lose card advantage or tempo advantage. If your opponent is not tapped out you don't put all your eggs in to Kiln Fiend's basket, it is that simple. It is also glorious to have spells countered and still have Kiln deal 7-10 damage. Goyf costs green mana (thus opens the door for nonbasic hate and damage from your own PoP), is worth $70 more, deals less damage (aka is slower) and he is still very good in the deck.

Great post as always. Can you post your most current mono red sligh Magic Workstation list + sideboard, the one you used to get such strong results? I might update the OP (crediting you with it of course) with it if you don't mind. When you do, please specify if there's any cards that you are unsure on because you haven't had much chance to side them in or test with them.


yuanshi23, it sounds like you just had really bad luck. This decks worst matchups are combos like Ichorid, TES and Enchantress and it seems that those are precisely the matchups you faced. Even then the deck can win especially with a solid sideboard.

[1maarten1]

Great post as always. Can you post your most current mono red sligh Magic Workstation list + sideboard, the one you used to get such strong results? I might update the OP (crediting you with it of course) with it if you don't mind. When you do, please specify if there's any cards that you are unsure on because you haven't had much chance to side them in or test with them.


yuanshi23, it sounds like you just had really bad luck. This decks worst matchups are combos like Ichorid, TES and Enchantress and it seems that those are precisely the matchups you faced. Even then the deck can win especially with a solid sideboard.

I believe he was running the same as me ;) Please correct me if I'm wrong.

List: Fiend Sligh
// Maindeck 60

// Creatures 15
4#Kiln Fiend
4#Goblin Guide
4#Keldon Marauders
3#Grim Lavamancer

// Lands 18
2#Scalding Tarn
2#Arid Mesa
14#Mountain

// Spells 27
4#Manamorphose
4#Lightning Bolt
4#Chain Lightning
4#Fireblast
4#Lava Spike
4#Price of Progress
3#Searing Blaze

// sideboard 15
4#Sulfuric Vortex
4#Vexing Shusher
3#Smash to Smithereens
4#Faerie Macabre

Im currently 20-4 on MWS or so, Searing Blaze rocking Maindeck, and I think vortex is my most valueble sideboardcard at the moment.

~Maarten

[Jon Stewart]

Awesome. Thank you. The build looks great.


I have one main question: Have you tested Rift Bolt at all? What don't you like about it?


Also, which matchups do you bring in what sideboard cards against.

I'm assuming, Macabre vs. ANT, Reanimator, Ichorid.

Smash vs. anything with 7+ artifacts

Shusher vs. Countertop & Chalice of the Void

and

Sulfuric Vortex against any controllish deck, or any deck with Rhox War Monk.

Would that be correct?

Do you usually side out the Marauders generally, and side out Searing Blaze against control and combo decks and PoP against combo and mono colored decks?

[1maarten1]

Awesome. Thank you. The build looks great.


I have one main question: Have you tested Rift Bolt at all? What don't you like about it?


Also, which matchups do you bring in what sideboard cards against.

I'm assuming, Macabre vs. ANT, Reanimator, Ichorid.

Smash vs. anything with 7+ artifacts

Shusher vs. Countertop & Chalice of the Void

and

Sulfuric Vortex against any controllish deck, or any deck with Rhox War Monk.

Would that be correct?

Do you usually side out the Marauders generally, and side out Searing Blaze against control and combo decks and PoP against combo and mono colored decks?

Rift Bolt: I cut it in order to play Searing Blaze in the maindeck, and I have never regretted that choice so far. I always used to like Bolt, but in this sligh build i just prefer Blaze over it.

Macabre: Any graveyard based deck, Dredge/Reanimator, but also decks like ANT/Thopter/43 Lands
Vortex: Control decks, Landstill/Counterbalance/Bant etc.
Vexing Shusher: Control decks, and decks that pack CotV, I use it quite often in combination with Vortex/Smash to Smithereens
Smash to Smithereens: Decks that run, or will bring in artifacts to hate you, quite obvious :D!

As for boarding out:
Vs Combo as Ant:
I board out Blaze, and some Marauders, to fit in the Macabres.

Vs Combo as Dredge:
I also board out Blaze, since you want to be able to burn your own creatures down, and with blaze you will also shoot yourself in the face so thats not prefered. I board out some PoP, since they will usually get stuck on 1 or 2 lands, depends on the sort of dredge.

I dont really side out Marauders too much, since they are really good, but vs ANT i usually take them out.

Blaze i board out against Combo, and decks like Landstill that dont run many creatures. (but against decks like Bant its good.)

Against stuff like Merfolk i board out PoPs ofcourse, as well as any other mono coloured deck.

I hope that answers your questions ;) If it may not, plz tell me :D!

~Maarten

[Angelfire]

I believe he was running the same as me ;) Please correct me if I'm wrong.

List: Fiend Sligh
// Maindeck 60

// Creatures 15
4#Kiln Fiend
4#Goblin Guide
4#Keldon Marauders
3#Grim Lavamancer

// Lands 18
2#Scalding Tarn
2#Arid Mesa
14#Mountain

// Spells 27
4#Manamorphose
4#Lightning Bolt
4#Chain Lightning
4#Fireblast
4#Lava Spike
4#Price of Progress
3#Searing Blaze

// sideboard 15
4#Sulfuric Vortex
4#Vexing Shusher
3#Smash to Smithereens
4#Faerie Macabre

Im currently 20-4 on MWS or so, Searing Blaze rocking Maindeck, and I think vortex is my most valueble sideboardcard at the moment.

~Maarten

Different fetch lands :)

I also run Shattering Spree over Smash to Smithereens in the board. I run Rift Bolt over Searing Blaze in real life (always Searing Blaze on MWS). I am torn on which card I like more, leaning towards Blaze atm.

In regards to the sideboard question. I bring in Shusher in against anything with as little as just Force of Will and I bring Vortex in against a deck with ANY life gain (If I see Jitte or even Gerrard's Verdict it usually comes in). Vortex is great against decks that have a slow clock. I most commonly board out Lava Spike.

[1maarten1]

Different fetch lands :)

I also run Shattering Spree over Smash to Smithereens in the board. I run Rift Bolt over Searing Blaze in real life (always Searing Blaze on MWS). I am torn on which card I like more, leaning towards Blaze atm.

In regards to the sideboard question. I bring in Shusher in against anything with as little as just Force of Will and I bring Vortex in against a deck with ANY life gain (If I see Jitte or even Gerrard's Verdict it usually comes in). Vortex is great against decks that have a slow clock. I most commonly board out Lava Spike.

Yea me too! I have had some games in which i would have just loved to see Lava Spike hit creatures. I might even go test Rift bolt instead of Spike. I always play with Blazes on MWS, and In real life I have the deck as I posted, Im only missing some Sb cards. I'll see if I take it too some tournaments later, but first I have to make my exams, and then go drinking in Greece :P.

Fetches dont really matter :D I just own these IRL.

But maybe -4 Spike, +4 Rift Bolt might be an idea? Not sure tho.

~Maarten

[mmmetaphor]

I don't understand the fascination over midrange cards. If you want midrange, play Zoo. The point of Sligh is to give up stability for speed. You become a glass cannon, but your clock improves by a full turn. The deck can very often race disruption like Counterbalance in this way, improves its combo matchup significantly, and the deck has an extremely positive aggro matchup (Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, etc).

I've been toying with Sligh for a long time now. They've continued to print cards that improve the deck dramatically and it's actually been just recently that I feel this deck has gained the tools to become a top tier deck.

Originally, I ran 4 Tarmogoyf and 2 Grim Lavamancer. During continual testing, I slowly came to find both of them being too slow. The soonest Goyf can swing is turn 3, oftentimes as a 3/4, sometimes even as bad as a 2/3. In fact, all 2cc creatures just don't fit the bill for me anymore in this archtype, barring some 2cc with Haste gets printed. Grim Lavamancer requires too heavy of a mana investment for the damage it can produce, and I found myself not needing the extra midgame strength it offered.

This is what I'm currently running:

R/W/g Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [A] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
2 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [ZEN] Burst Lightning
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
2 [WWK] Searing Blaze
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The deck focuses on consistency and speed. 12 1 drop critters makes dropping a guy on turn 1 very frequent. All 3 creatures are very aggressive and can dish out alot of damage by turn 3 (6 damage on average for 1 mana invested). With only 12 creatures, the deck is able to dedicate the majority of its spells to burn. This allows the deck to very easily switch roles, should the opponent have creature removal, big blockers, etc. The increase of 1cc burn spells allows the deck to curve out more efficiently in the first few turns, which is where it really matters. The ability to burn a blocker and drop a guy on the same turn makes a huge difference in the decks fundamental clock.

Of course the deck does have glaring weaknesses as well, like tempo decks (Stifle/Wasteland), Chalice decks that resolve it before it's too late, among others. That's the disadvantage to being a glass cannon, but it does improves alot of shaky matchups that Zoo has, so I find it to be a fair tradeoff. As far as aggressive aggro decks go, you won't find one that's more aggressive than this. The deck has a very consistent turn 3 goldfish. Against disruptions to the gameplan like creature removal, I still find myself winning by turn 4 very often.

Good points. Ive been testing a similar version. I'm on the fence with regarding magma jet... There are better choices for damage to mana ratio for 2ccor even 1cc but the scry is so good, especially when only running 18-19 land.. do you ever consider replacing it with lava spike?

Also, and I know this has been brought up already, but the burst lightning seems rather awful... especially with PoP sitting on the bench. I'd start PoP over burst lightning any day.

Krosan Grip in the board is an unfortunate necessity. I'd much rather prefer smash to smithereens but I've been hosed by Cop:red too many times to over look it. It seems you've reached the same conclusion.

Why do you pack the Path to Exiles? In my board I've been playing Sulfuric Vortex in that spot and its been stellar..

What I've been playing:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nactl
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet ....lava spike?
4 Fireblast
3 Seering Blaze ...lava spike?

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Mountain

SB
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Krosan Grip
4 Faerie Macbre
4 Vexing Shusher

[Koby]

Having played a bit from the Standard RDW variations I had some ideas going into a Sligh build for Legacy. It is a bit unconventional, but truely explosive.

It maintains a monored build, but takes advantage of haste granting abilities of Goblin Bushwhacker and Devastating Summons to bring 10 power of attackers in one swoop. Other uses for Bushwhacker is to grant haste to Kiln Fiend, or just pump up a squad of Goblin Guides.

// Beaters
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Devastating Summons

// Hasters
3 Reckless Charge

// Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
3 Burst Lightning

// Mana
6 Fetchland
12 Mountain

I've been able to manuever around 1 Tarmogoyf, and blockers are very easily removed. Multiple Tall Men however are a big problem.

Kiln Fiend is playing out surprisingly well. Devastating Summons too, as it gives you large men to swing back. And since my lands are typically gone, I opt for mana-free solutiosn in my sideboard. Pyrokinesis has been good so far in testing. It serves the same purpose as it does in Goblins - clear the way and eliminate problematic creatures. It is also another "free" spell for Kiln Fiend to grow larger.

Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Flaring Pain
3 Pithing Needle
3 Smash to Smithereens

The only card that I've seen is suboptimal in my testing is Reckless Charge, which could easily become Lava Dart, Lava Spike, or Manamorphose. I'd prefer Lava Dart since it can combo with Kiln Fiend, but generally take care of lots of small creatures for only 1 mana. Also, managing your lands for both Devastating Summons and Fireblast seems to be an issue against blue decks. More testing will reveal how much of a problem the suicidal tendency of this deck has in those matchups.

[Jon Stewart]

Reckless charge is pretty narrow, however one card that I'm very highly in favor of in any deck with 15 creatures or more is Reckless Abandon.

With 15 creatures I find that it rivals and supplements Fireblast in how strong a finisher it is after your attack phase.

[paeng4983]

im a bit confused, what's the difference between sligh and burn?
if you'll try to go to deckcheck.net there's a burn and sligh are separated. but if you will try to check the cards in it, they're just basically the same.
why is it so? can anyone enlighten me on this.
thanks

[Angelfire]

Sligh is basically Burn with very aggressive creatures instead of the weaker burn slots. The tradeoff is your deck opens yourself up to creature destruction and their creatures being able to rob your deck of damage.

If your "Burn" deck runs Kiln Fiend and/or Goblin Guide your deck has become Sligh.

Note: Burn decks that run creatures like Keldon Marauders or Mogg Fanatic (who is now a bad choice) are not Sligh.

[saturn]

I'm currently trying to build a bideboard for my Naya Sligh. It's never seemed very good to me.

I'd like to know your SB plans against CT.
I find Grip too slow and Shusher always gets hit by removal. Perhaps Sulfuric Vortex to handle Monk while being cmc3 and providing reach? Lavamancer maybe? My opponents seem to respect him vastly since I never get to activate him. Also, he does nothing when drawn once they've got CT established.

Also, whats your favourite ANT-hate?
Tried Pyrostatic Pillars but it gets owned by Angels Grace.

Artifact removal other than Grip (for Jitte, Chalice, Vial...)
-Smash to Smithereens?
No other card have I lost more games to than Jitte.

Grave hate... essential against Dredge, but otherwise? Reanimator likes to take the Emrakul/Show and tell route I've noticed, rendering the hate less efficient. But there's also Survival and the Ill-gotten gains-plan of ANT. I've used 3 Relic plus 3 Faerie Macabre (uncounterable and so sweet: against Survival for ex. - remove Squee and Iona in response to retaineractivation). The problem is all grave hate take so much space if it is to be all-round. Macabre for ex is rather weak against dredge owing to Cabal therapy and its limited range.

Volcanic Fallout against tribal decks like Gobs, Merfs and Faeries?

I also run 3 PtE main, the match against Reanimator is a total scoop otherwise because of Sphinx and it's so damn useful in general (goyf, monk, Iona on Red, large animal with Jitte, pump own lynxes).
In addition, I have 2 Sylvan main. It's just the best card in the deck. A resolved Sylvan is almost always game.

[saturn]

About Shusher, this happened to me once against Landstill. I had bolted him twice and put a lethal Fireblast on the stack with Shusher in play and mana up. He then cast Cunning Wish for Mindbreak Trap and exiled the Fireblast, thus sidestepping Shusher. I lost that game.

[Sevryn]

Has anyone tested Flames of the Blood Hand? 4 damage from one card is better than lightning bolt (on a dmg/card basis only, of course : P), and by the time you are playing FotBH, your hand will be mostly empty so the mana cost isn't too big of a deal. It also potentially does more than 4 damage if you can use it in response to a heal trigger (Rhox War Monk, for example).

I'm going to be testing it maindeck, but I feel it could be a good replacement for Vortex due to synergy with Kiln Fiend. Yes, I realize that Vortex wins long games and shuts healing off for good, I am just testing other options.


EDIT: and on a side note, Rift Bolt gets around chalice at 1 and is easier to force through counterbalance. It's better than Lava Spike just because its CMC is 3.

EDIT2: I just outraced Phyrexian Dreadnought with Kiln Fiend. Opponent should have kept him back to block!

[Combo Winter]

Here is my current list I like moon because it is like a change of pace from the rest of the deck. And can change a game when it resolves. It provides a touch of disruption and has completly justified its place in the deck during my testing.


4 goblin guide
4 lavamancer
4 confidant
4 magus of the moon

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 riftbolt
4 pop
4 magma jet
4 fireblast

8 red fetchs
3 barbarian ring
1 swamp
4 badlands
4 mountain