[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[pippo84]

I just looked at the thopter decks that did well at StarCityGames.

The decks I looked at are these 4:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33479
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33300
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33222
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32002

I decided to see what they have in common and that should be the starting point to make a successful deck.
The sideboards were so different I did not consider them.
I just took in consideration spells that were in all 4 decks.

Here is what the sample list should look like:

Artifacts:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

Enchantments:

4 Counterbalance
1 Moat

Istants:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares (actually one list ran just 3, but it's a mandatory 4 of in my opinion!)

Planeswalkers:

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

21-22 Lands

I actually suggest 22 because you want to reach 4-5 lands ASAP.

They all played at least 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Seat of the Synod.

This should be the starting point. Considering 22 lands this leaves us 5 open slots.

I don't understand the Tormod's Crypt main deck though.. Comments on it?

I would suggest at least 2 Counterspells, better if 3.

To notice: 3 decks ran 1 Oblivion Ring and 0 decks ran Vedalken Shackles.

I will write some more when I have some more time.. :tongue:

[Tammit67]

So with the anticipated decline of combo, how much better would this deck be in a Landstill shell rather than a CounterTop shell?

The countertop shell is still entirely useful against half the meta. New Horizons, bant survival, NoBant, TES, Landstill aren't happy about it. It's still key against any deck that gives us time to set it up. The landstill shell seems better in an aggro meta, while I'd rather have this in every other case. The ability to E tutor it up is too strong

[SMR0079]

I just looked at the thopter decks that did well at StarCityGames.

The decks I looked at are these 4:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33479
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33300
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33222
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32002

I decided to see what they have in common and that should be the starting point to make a successful deck.
The sideboards were so different I did not consider them.
I just took in consideration spells that were in all 4 decks.

Here is what the sample list should look like:

Artifacts:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

Enchantments:

4 Counterbalance
1 Moat

Istants:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares (actually one list ran just 3, but it's a mandatory 4 of in my opinion!)

Planeswalkers:

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

21-22 Lands

I actually suggest 22 because you want to reach 4-5 lands ASAP.

They all played at least 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Seat of the Synod.

This should be the starting point. Considering 22 lands this leaves us 5 open slots.

I don't understand the Tormod's Crypt main deck though.. Comments on it?

I would suggest at least 2 Counterspells, better if 3.

To notice: 3 decks ran 1 Oblivion Ring and 0 decks ran Vedalken Shackles.

I will write some more when I have some more time.. :tongue:

Your on the right path keep it up...just remember that you also have to design going forward.

There are enough graveyard strategies in the format to make maindeck crypt worth while. O-Ring is a good catch all answer that can be tutored for.

The core of the deck builds itself then you just tinker around the edges. I have recently decided to build my main deck to beat aggro with Firespouts and Humility main deck, while having more silver bullets in the board.

[DemosLegion]

Ok here is the list I am testing

Lands x22
Flooded strand x4
Polluted delta x2
Misty rainforest x2
Scalding tarn x1
Tundra x2
Academy ruins x1
Tropical Island x1
Seat of Synod x1
island x6
plains x2

Artifacts x10
sensei's divining top x4
thopter foundry x2
sword of the meek x2
pithing needle x1
engineered explosives x1

enchantment x6
counterbalance x4
back to basics x1
moat x1

planswalkers x3
jace the mind sculptor x3

Instant x17
Brainstorm x4
Enlightened tutor x4
Swords to plowshares x4
Counterspell x3
Force of will x4

Sideboard X15
Back to Basics x1
Oblivon Ring x1
Circle of protection red x1
Humility x1
Wheel of sun and moon x1
Tormads crypt x1
Relic of Progenitus x1
serenity x1
pithing needle x1
threads of disloyalty x1
krosan grip x3
luminarch ascension x1
engineered explosives x1

[pippo84]

@SMR0079: I agree that there are many decks that use the GY in someway, even "reducing" a Goyf can be useful, but against other decks it's completely useless. Wouldn't a Relic of Progenitus be better? At least if you draw it you can cycle it if you don't need it.

[SMR0079]

@SMR0079: I agree that there are many decks that use the GY in someway, even "reducing" a Goyf can be useful, but against other decks it's completely useless. Wouldn't a Relic of Progenitus be better? At least if you draw it you can cycle it if you don't need it.

Relic is fine and less dead. Crypt is less mana intensive and better when you really need it as it's zero mana. If you don't see much graveyard decks then put it in the board, but in general, I think you want it.

[conboy31]

I am loving 1 ensnaring bridge in the board. It is 90 to 100% fatality vs. merfolk if it resolves.
A) They have 0-1 maybe 2 bounce in their 75.
B) By the time you land it their lords will almost always be bigger than your hand size.
C) its amazingly easy to find and cast w/ e tutors and being trip colorless in the face of wastelands and dazes. Spell pierces too.
Additional Scenarios: Cobra KAI can fly over moat and LOA can make the team unblockable for fatal just as thopter foundry combo gets online. Bridge solves those issues.

Try it out, I sometimes felt bad when I resolved it as it was such a blowout.

[pippo84]

Looking at the "skeleton" of the lists from SCG (posted above) I noticed a thing: the CB curve is terrible!
Considering 2 slots are still free and 3 Counterspells and 1 Oblivion Ring is added this is the curve:

0 ---> 23
1 ---> 17
2 ---> 10
3 ---> 1
4 ---> 3
5 ---> 4

The 23 drops at 0 are the lands + 1 Engineered Explosives and that's fine.

Considering 2 free slots I would at least try and change the drops in this way:

1 ---> 15
2 ---> 12
3 ---> 3

This seems like the minimum curve to support a CB.

Thoughts?

[Tammit67]

Yeah, the one problem I have is the awkward CB curve. And that chalice is no fun at all

[Aggro_zombies]

Looking at the "skeleton" of the lists from SCG (posted above) I noticed a thing: the CB curve is terrible!
Considering 2 slots are still free and 3 Counterspells and 1 Oblivion Ring is added this is the curve:

0 ---> 23
1 ---> 17
2 ---> 10
3 ---> 1
4 ---> 3
5 ---> 4

The 23 drops at 0 are the lands + 1 Engineered Explosives and that's fine.

Considering 2 free slots I would at least try and change the drops in this way:

1 ---> 15
2 ---> 12
3 ---> 3

This seems like the minimum curve to support a CB.

Thoughts?
If you're splashing black, Vindicate seems like a generally good card to have in game one (more useful than Aura of Silence, at least). If you're in red, Firespout should be in the list for sure.

[SMR0079]

I am loving 1 ensnaring bridge in the board. It is 90 to 100% fatality vs. merfolk if it resolves.
A) They have 0-1 maybe 2 bounce in their 75.
B) By the time you land it their lords will almost always be bigger than your hand size.
C) its amazingly easy to find and cast w/ e tutors and being trip colorless in the face of wastelands and dazes. Spell pierces too.
Additional Scenarios: Cobra KAI can fly over moat and LOA can make the team unblockable for fatal just as thopter foundry combo gets online. Bridge solves those issues.

Try it out, I sometimes felt bad when I resolved it as it was such a blowout.

Yeah that was what really pushed me to playing this particular build, and convinced me it's the best CTop design available. I have since switched to main deck Humility and Firespout with Moat in the board because of the Zoo match, but Enlightened Tutor into Bridge is some hotness for sure.

The curve is not ideal but sufficient. In the 2 slot you can run more counters, or Thopter/Sword. Personally, I would rather have access to a few silver bullets; Explosives, Crypt, Needle.

Any results on the pseduo mirro ie; Gofy based CounterTop?

[Misplayer]

Looking at the "skeleton" of the lists from SCG (posted above) I noticed a thing: the CB curve is terrible!
Considering 2 slots are still free and 3 Counterspells and 1 Oblivion Ring is added this is the curve:

0 ---> 23
1 ---> 17
2 ---> 10
3 ---> 1
4 ---> 3
5 ---> 4

The 23 drops at 0 are the lands + 1 Engineered Explosives and that's fine.

Considering 2 free slots I would at least try and change the drops in this way:

1 ---> 15
2 ---> 12
3 ---> 3

This seems like the minimum curve to support a CB.

Thoughts?

This is why I suggested moving away from a CB/Top shell and to a Landstill shell. You could essentially be UWx ETutor/Planeswalker Control, but the best control cards don't fit well into the 2-3 cmc slots that CounterTop decks like to see. CounterTopGoyf was/is such a powerful deck because it often curved out naturally that way. Cards like Humility/JaceTMS/Elspeth/Moat/Wrath/FoF are all big bombs in control but you're limited in your CMC 4 slots by playing Counterbalance and you're forced to cram in subpar card choices like Oblivion Ring. A UW Landstill/Thopter control deck would require only adding Standstill, Factory and let you play the best cards regardless of mana curve.

I'll stop hijacking this thread now, but I think it's an option worth considering, because the deck is already UWx ETutor Control right now. The Thopter combo is just a tutorable wincon that plays a relatively minor role in the deck, and the CounterTop is just a fancy card advantage engine that varies in potency depending on matchup (although the same could be said about Standstill).

[SMR0079]

This is why I suggested moving away from a CB/Top shell and to a Landstill shell. You could essentially be UWx ETutor/Planeswalker Control, but the best control cards don't fit well into the 2-3 cmc slots that CounterTop decks like to see. CounterTopGoyf was/is such a powerful deck because it often curved out naturally that way. Cards like Humility/JaceTMS/Elspeth/Moat/Wrath/FoF are all big bombs in control but you're limited in your CMC 4 slots by playing Counterbalance and you're forced to cram in subpar card choices like Oblivion Ring. A UW Landstill/Thopter control deck would require only adding Standstill, Factory and let you play the best cards regardless of mana curve.

I'll stop hijacking this thread now, but I think it's an option worth considering, because the deck is already UWx ETutor Control right now. The Thopter combo is just a tutorable wincon that plays a relatively minor role in the deck, and the CounterTop is just a fancy card advantage engine that varies in potency depending on matchup (although the same could be said about Standstill).

You have a point, but I wouldn't conclude that Landstill is the correct direction, rather, a new UWx control deck (check out team CAB). Landstill is a concept I find underpowered and out dated. Standstill doesn't draw you out of bad situations and the merfolk match is horrible.

As long as Legacy is dominated by decks with a curve that centers around 1 and 2 drops then counterbalance is going to be a defining feature to the format, and one of the best options available for control. The curve is not ideal in this deck but it is sufficient. The Thopter Combo combined with Tutor is actually one of the most powerful aspects of the deck. It allows you to buy back all the time and life, has inevitability while running minimal win cons.

[marax]

The curve is actually quite fine to abuse Counterbalance. Please do not forget that we can either use the Enlightened tutor to fetch a useful enchantment/artifact or Brainstorm to put a card in hand back on top. I have often countered a Tarmogoyf while also tutoring up the Foundry or the sword at the same time.

I agree that the 3 casting cost slot can be annoying, however. I tested the Madrid GP List by Mr. Santiago quite a bit (only changes were to replace spell snare with counterspell in the MD). Often it was possible to tutor for the shackles in response to a 3 drop beeing cast but I would have rather liked to search for something different (Thopter or Sword).

I am exited to remove the Confidants from the MB, possibly from all 75 cards even, and add a few silver bullets (Oblivion Ring;Back to Basics; Humility/Moat) into the deck while also adding the new M11 enchantment Dark Tutelage). I am also a strong supporter of Daze in the MD (3of). It is of course much stronger while on the play; but even in the late game I usually let a Daze float on top as my go to casting cost 2 reveal for Counterbalance.

[pippo84]

The curve is actually quite fine to abuse Counterbalance. Please do not forget that we can either use the Enlightened tutor to fetch a useful enchantment/artifact or Brainstorm to put a card in hand back on top. I have often countered a Tarmogoyf while also tutoring up the Foundry or the sword at the same time.

I agree that the 3 casting cost slot can be annoying, however. I tested the Madrid GP List by Mr. Santiago quite a bit (only changes were to replace spell snare with counterspell in the MD). Often it was possible to tutor for the shackles in response to a 3 drop beeing cast but I would have rather liked to search for something different (Thopter or Sword).

I am exited to remove the Confidants from the MB, possibly from all 75 cards even, and add a few silver bullets (Oblivion Ring;Back to Basics; Humility/Moat) into the deck while also adding the new M11 enchantment Dark Tutelage). I am also a strong supporter of Daze in the MD (3of). It is of course much stronger while on the play; but even in the late game I usually let a Daze float on top as my go to casting cost 2 reveal for Counterbalance.

Dark Tutelage? I just looked up this card! It's a Bob made enchantment! Not sure though if it's better than Phyrexian Arena, obviously the latter is harder to cast because of the :1::b::b: casting cost instead of :2::b:

Anyways tutorin up a piece to counter a spell is obviously strong, and that may actually help this CB curve..

As for playing Daze I see your points, but I have to disagree. :frown:
Usually games go so long that Counterspell is better because you don't need to leave it floating on top.

[DemosLegion]

O ring is for null rod and aposing planeswalkers and random hate cards so it is not sub par

[Anusien]

That's an incredibly narrow maindeck card to fight Planeswalkers (since no top tier decks play them) and sideboard cards.

[obituary 95]

I am loving 1 ensnaring bridge in the board. It is 90 to 100% fatality vs. merfolk if it resolves.
A) They have 0-1 maybe 2 bounce in their 75.
B) By the time you land it their lords will almost always be bigger than your hand size.
C) its amazingly easy to find and cast w/ e tutors and being trip colorless in the face of wastelands and dazes. Spell pierces too.
Additional Scenarios: Cobra KAI can fly over moat and LOA can make the team unblockable for fatal just as thopter foundry combo gets online. Bridge solves those issues.

Try it out, I sometimes felt bad when I resolved it as it was such a blowout.

do remember that after bridge resolves they still have a out .if they resolve standstill they can break it and kill you in one turn

[Tammit67]

You need to then to have not drawn a couple instants, or hit a force for that standstill. It seems unlikely. A resolved ensnaring bridge is a beating.

[obituary 95]

actually if the list from the scg 5k becomes the norm then a resolved ensnaring bridge might just be game vs the folk deck

[pippo84]

After extensive testing I dropped a few cards from my previous list.
I cut the Diabolic Edicts and the Esper Charms.

Since I now run less black I could cut a few Duals and add a fetch and some basic lands, thus I added 1 Back to Basics in the side.

Since Jace, the Mind Sculptor is so powerful I also added a third one.

I am trying Vedalken Shackles again, let's see how it goes. Another slot could be Ensnaring Bridge or another removal.

[obituary 95]

what is the right number of thopter foundry to sword of the meek ? there seems to be a lot of variation here. in some lists you see a 2/1 split in others you will see a 3/1 or even a 3/2 split

[Jeff Kruchkow]

what is the right number of thopter foundry to sword of the meek ? there seems to be a lot of variation here. in some lists you see a 2/1 split in others you will see a 3/1 or even a 3/2 split

I think it depends on how man E tutor you run, and also if you run jace or not. If no jace id run 2 sword so as to not get wrecked by random grave hate. And if you dont run 4 e tutor you want 3/2 so that you can find them more readily.

[SMR0079]

Went 4-1 and won a Sea last night.

Went with Moat/Bridge main, firespout/humility in board. I really like this configuration to beat aggro.

Run 4 tutors. There are no shortage 0f targets as you are assembling 2 combos and board control. With 4 tutors I only run 2 Thopter 1 Sword to minimize dead draws. You just have to be careful tapping out to avoid them removing your sword.

I really think there only a few questions when designing the main deck.
What and how many supplemental counters - Daze or counterspell?
What board control targets - Moat, Bridge, Humility, EE, Relic/Crypt, Oring, Back to Basics ?


Now, you could build a different deck that is more centered on the Thopter combo - their is a guy in our area who has had some success with this route, but that's for a different thread.

[pippo84]

Went 4-1 and won a Sea last night.

Went with Moat/Bridge main, firespout/humility in board. I really like this configuration to beat aggro.

Run 4 tutors. There are no shortage 0f targets as you are assembling 2 combos and board control. With 4 tutors I only run 2 Thopter 1 Sword to minimize dead draws. You just have to be careful tapping out to avoid them removing your sword.

I really think there only a few questions when designing the main deck.
What and how many supplemental counters - Daze or counterspell?
What board control targets - Moat, Bridge, Humility, EE, Relic/Crypt, Oring, Back to Basics ?


Now, you could build a different deck that is more centered on the Thopter combo - their is a guy in our area who has had some success with this route, but that's for a different thread.


What decks did you play against? What list did you play?

I agree, most of the Main Deck builds itself alone. I think that the most important thing to discuss on this thread is what color to splash and why.

[obituary 95]

with the green splash we get krosan grip and rwm

the red splash gives use firespout and direct damage spells

the black splash gives us edict and extirpate

am i missing any thing

[pippo84]

with the green splash we get krosan grip and rwm

the red splash gives use firespout and direct damage spells

the black splash gives us edict and extirpate

am i missing any thing


Well we should dscuss why the chosen color is the best.

As you mentioned Red gives Firespout and Burn spells. But we don't need burn spells and you forgot to mention REB that could be a good choice for the side.

Greed gives Krosan Grip, Qasali, RWM and Tarmogoyf post side (if you chose to add creatures in the side)

Black gives Extirpate, Edict, Engineered Plague and Perish that's an MVP atm.

I have not taken under consideration the green splash because Artifacts and Enchantments have never been a problem for this deck and I don't think that the creatures listed are useful here.

Red would be useful for Firespout mainly, it's good against Goblin, Merfolk, Dredge and Zoo, but does not help against ProBant and New Horizons. REB is always a nice card in the SB.

Black gives us Diabolic Edict, but after Reanimator losing popularity I don't think it's useful now. Extirpate is a SB card that depends on the meta you expect and actually is very good against the UGB Landeed that's gaining popularity atm, but I'm not sure if it's wort the slot. Perish is great against Zoo, ProBant and New Horizons and Engineered Plague is good against Tribal decks + Dredge.

Did I miss something?

What color splash did you chose and why?

Atm my list is UW in the main with the black splsh for Perish and Engineered Plague post side. Probably just playing WoG would be better and make me save slots.. :confused:

[obituary 95]

actually i have tried a myriad of color combinations in this deck .

i have tried uwg and played rwm and k grip in the side . rwm was decent but it did not help the zoo match up after board as much as i would have liked, i also was playing k grip for the mirror . all and all i found this color combo underwhelming and i believe i actually weakened the deck overall because if your zoo opponent forced g3 he would just side back in his pte

i am in the process of trying out the red splash , it just seems like we could have a amazing anti creature package with the color combination

[whidye]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if this deck should go here, but I think it fits. I was doing some testing and changed the plan to run factories instead of wasteland and I run more 'tutors':

1 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Do or Die
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard (incomplete):
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Jotun Grunt


I think I may be light on land - there are 20... Comments appreciated, thanks!

[obituary 95]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if this deck should go here, but I think it fits. I was doing some testing and changed the plan to run factories instead of wasteland and I run more 'tutors':

1 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Do or Die
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard (incomplete):
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Jotun Grunt


I think I may be light on land - there are 20... Comments appreciated, thanks!

one or to land are probably needed i usually don't play a control deck with out at least 21 to 22 lands, you might want to cut a bridge for it since bridges do nothing in multiples

[SMR0079]

What decks did you play against? What list did you play?

I agree, most of the Main Deck builds itself alone. I think that the most important thing to discuss on this thread is what color to splash and why.

I remember beating Thopter Gifts, Zoo, Merfolk, and lost to Lands, never finishing game 2. I drew primarily dual lands when I lost.

22 Lands: 4 islands, 2 plains, 2 tundra, 2 Trop, 2 Volcanic, 8 fetch, 1 ruins, 1 synod
3 Counterspell
Moat, Bridge, EE, Relic, ORing, needle
2 Jace, 2 Thopter, 1 Sword
4 ofs the obvious spells that matter

I run Green for Grip in the mirror. There is no substitute. Also for Wheel, and hitting flyers with Firespout - which is why I run red. Zoo is tough and Humility Firespout really improves the match up. You can also float firespout to stop Grip. If you don't run red for Firespout then you are on the 7-8 spot removal plan. The best strategy though is to set up the Thopter combo as fast as possible while killing their guys, they just have to many outs to try and CTop lock them with any regularity.

[Ratavagnimalf]

Here is the deck I've been play testing on MTGO. The meta online involves a lot of Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, and UBG Landstill deck with Jace + Deed. I found that the deck is always hungry for more mana, so i added in another basic plains. During play I rarely grab the duals unless it is absolutely necessary because they usually get wasted immediately.

Main Deck
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Wall of Omens
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Serenity


As to the sideboard, I went a little heavy on the aggro hate. I'm trying out Wall of Omens because it replaces itself and can stop a lot of early pain. I'm going to try this list out in a Daily Event tonight and I'll come back later and talk about how it went!

[obituary 95]

i have tried out wall of omens before and i was not super impressed with it , it was nice to draw a card but it did not really matter i mean it can absorb damage but it does not actually advance your plan.

[grahf]

Yikes, now that this thread is in Established (and rightly so), it really needs a better opening post. When I made the thread, I thought the deck was cool, but definitely didn't realize it would end up as a contender for best control deck in the new meta.

I can put some better and newer lists in the OP, and talk about card choices, but would anybody like to send me some matchup analyses? Or even do a full primer? I don't have the time or venue to test Legacy right now.

[easyrider]

I also don't see why Wall of Omens is great at stopping aggro. It doesn't actually remove attackers from the field and can be killed by their removal. Ratavagnimalf, do you find that 4 Path in the sideboard is not enough to beat agressive decks? I have not had problems against Zoo with 4 Swords, 2 Paths and don't see why 4 Swords, 4 Paths would be any less effective. Against Merfolk and Goblins, setting up a Moat (with a bunch of Plow effects) has been enough for me to win most times.

Are you guys finding this deck to be really bad against Landstill variants? Against UBG, you have less Jaces, and Academy Ruins is very important, but there isn't much of a chance of seeing it reliably. Is landing a Back to Basics enough?

[pippo84]

I also don't see why Wall of Omens is great at stopping aggro. It doesn't actually remove attackers from the field and can be killed by their removal. Ratavagnimalf, do you find that 4 Path in the sideboard is not enough to beat agressive decks? I have not had problems against Zoo with 4 Swords, 2 Paths and don't see why 4 Swords, 4 Paths would be any less effective. Against Merfolk and Goblins, setting up a Moat (with a bunch of Plow effects) has been enough for me to win most times.

Are you guys finding this deck to be really bad against Landstill variants? Against UBG, you have less Jaces, and Academy Ruins is very important, but there isn't much of a chance of seeing it reliably. Is landing a Back to Basics enough?

I don't know. Unfortunately I didn't test the UBG Jace-Landeed match yet, and it's gaining a lot of popularity. They have 4 Mishra's and 4 Jace 2.0 as their win conditions, but are packed with counters and have 4 Pernicious Deed that gie us problems. If we can land a Pithing Needle on Deed I think it's game for us, if we can't it's probably a really hard MU. Hope I can test it soon.

Anyways Back to Basics could help the match.

A fast CB+Top could be a win for us if we manage to leave some 3-4 drops on top..

[obituary 95]

i have played against landstill before and am currently 2 and 8 against it in matches .the match up is definitely in landstill favour , the only way i have any success is to get a needle down on deed then try and follow it up with a quick counterbalance. if you are playing in real life you probably should not be concerned with the deck though because hopefully zoo will beat it out

[Ratavagnimalf]

I don't think Wall of Omens is the right call either. It's nice that it replaces itself, but I think over all that any plan involving creatures is a bad plan. Against Deedstill, they have 10+ creature removal spells and even after boarding they still have to leave them in so there is a nice advantage to be had there. I'm going to stick with the 4 Sword main 4 Path side plan.

I ended up being too busy to play this weekend, but there was a lot of success with this deck on MTGO.

Saturday Premiere Event: 33 Players (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1395803)
Whiffy Penguin took 6th place, losing in round 1 of the top 8 to a Show & Tell deck with Emrakul that ended up in first.

Sunday Premiere Event: 33 Players (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1395804)
A build with MD Tezz, 0 Humility, anda 2nd Moat SB took first place beating out D&T, Quick Red, and Survival in the top 8. Whiffy took 6th again, and the SCG 1st deck took 7th place.


I'm going to talk to some of these guys in game and see how they felt about the sideboards, but the main decks are similar enough to draw some good conclusions. This is going to be a really good month for legacy data from MTGO because of the impending Legacy Grand Prix AND the MTGO MOCS (end of the season championship) is Legacy format as well. It will be exciting to see if this deck makes a splash in either tournament.

[easyrider]

Is there a reason that most lists sideboard Meddling Mage? It seems decent against UBG Landstill as a way to beat Deed or against the Mosswort Bridge deck to stop them from comboing. Is this just a product of the Mtgo metagame or is there something I am missing? Aren't there better, more flexible cards we can be playing that are not creatures?

Also, what is the best way to deal with Extirpate? Obviously Mage is an answer, but I don't want something that will die to removal. Do any of you guys board into Painter's Servant/Grindstone to have a win condition that doesn't involve the graveyard? Is Pull from Eternity too narrow?

Have you guys had problems finishing games? I use to early game to counter stuff, plow guys, tutor up and play necessary enchantments, and then play CB/Top. But after that, I find that I have trouble finding Thopter/Sword (sometimes 10 or more turns) and the game drags on way too long. Should there be more combo pieces maindeck? This also makes using Enlightened Tutor to fetch silver bullets more practical as well. I think that it would be easy to cut Crucible and another card.

[pippo84]

Is there a reason that most lists sideboard Meddling Mage? It seems decent against UBG Landstill as a way to beat Deed or against the Mosswort Bridge deck to stop them from comboing. Is this just a product of the Mtgo metagame or is there something I am missing? Aren't there better, more flexible cards we can be playing that are not creatures?

Also, what is the best way to deal with Extirpate? Obviously Mage is an answer, but I don't want something that will die to removal. Do any of you guys board into Painter's Servant/Grindstone to have a win condition that doesn't involve the graveyard? Is Pull from Eternity too narrow?

Have you guys had problems finishing games? I use to early game to counter stuff, plow guys, tutor up and play necessary enchantments, and then play CB/Top. But after that, I find that I have trouble finding Thopter/Sword (sometimes 10 or more turns) and the game drags on way too long. Should there be more combo pieces maindeck? This also makes using Enlightened Tutor to fetch silver bullets more practical as well. I think that it would be easy to cut Crucible and another card.

Meddling Mage stciks to play because usually opponents side out creature removals..
Pull from Eternity is really a narrow card. Extirpate does not see so much play and if you are afraid of it just leave a 1cc drop on top of your CB.

I find myself ok with the 2/1 split, but there are 2-3 slots that can be changed, so you should'nt have any problems to fit in those 2 cards.

And why do you play Crucible of Worlds here? You can't do a Wasteland recursion, the manabase is really solid and you should already play enough lands.. Cut it plz!! :tongue:

[(nameless one)]

And why do you play Crucible of Worlds here? You can't do a Wasteland recursion, the manabase is really solid and you should already play enough lands.. Cut it plz!! :tongue:

I do not get this part too. I did see Seat of the Synod. Maybe if Swords of the Meek gets exiled, thats the secondary plan? Sacrifice Seat of the Synod and replay it via Crucible?

It could also be just a random shuffler effect if you ran out of Fetchlands.

[mchainmail]

Meddling Mage stciks to play because usually opponents side out creature removals..
Pull from Eternity is really a narrow card. Extirpate does not see so much play and if you are afraid of it just leave a 1cc drop on top of your CB.

This. Generally, you can set up CB before trying to combo off and win.



And why do you play Crucible of Worlds here? You can't do a Wasteland recursion, the manabase is really solid and you should already play enough lands.. Cut it plz!! :tongue:

Recurring Factories in the early game, or just getting lands out of your deck and shuffling for CB, if you're running Factory. It also makes Academy Ruins better.

[Salogy]

An article about this deck has been posted here: http://puremtgo.com/articles/whiffys-lunch-box-43-back-countertop.

The author is the player who consistently placed 6th place in MTGO's last two Premier Events. These events are 33 player events with 6 rounds of swiss and a top 8 playoff. A majority of the article is about the matchups he faced during the two events but also includes sideboard and card tech for each matchup. Although the matchup analysis is brief, the diversity and insight is worth reading if you're already familiar with the deck. It reads very much like a tournament report.

[jazzykat]

I was thinking about the The Abyss as a competitor to Humility and Moat. A quick run down:

Both of these cards cost WW2 which isn't bad in a 2 color deck.
Humility: All creatures are 1/1 dorks. OK if you have thopter/foundry online or a blocker but you can still get beat down slowly. Obviously it stops QP. It is also rather confusing
Moat: Stops most creatures. You can still block whatever flying they have with your thopter tokens and they are free to swing away. Obviously creatures maintain abilities, most importantly QP.

The Abyss: Costs only B3 so you only need 1 colored mana of a NEW splash color. Your opponent will need to have 2 creatures in play before they get to swing with 1. You are basically immune to the effect but will continue to take full damage from existing creatures.

[Rico Suave]

The Abyss: Costs only B3 so you only need 1 colored mana of a NEW splash color. Your opponent will need to have 2 creatures in play before they get to swing with 1. You are basically immune to the effect if you have thopters going then you have an upkeep of 1 thopter per turn and you can continue to pump them out.

Thopters, and other artifact creatures, are safe from the Abyss anyway.

A few things:

1) It's kinda slow and further clogs the 4 drop slot which I don't think is good.
2) Aggro can still try to swarm if they really wanted to, which is not an option against something like Moat
3) It does not answer manlands such as Mutavault from Merfolk
4) Goblins has Warchief, making alpha strikes with the Abyss on the table not too difficult, not to mention the ability to create lots of goblins through effects like Matron -> Ringleader or just playing SCG

I'm not sure what the Abyss is meant to target that isn't better stopped by a combination of Moat, Humility, Shackles, and/or Ensnaring Bridge.

[jazzykat]

@Rico: My thinking is this:

If they get rid of Moat, or any of the other solutions you are potentially getting your face wrecked. At the very least they can still build up (maybe not with shackles) until they can grip it or whatever and potentially alpha strike. All the the options you listed obviously buy you time.

The Abyss oto Let's them hit you with all their creatures-1 every turn. The goblins matchup is probably where this is worst for the thopter player and abyss.

The difference is that if the abyss leaves play if they have 1 upkeep they are at least down a creature. The Abyss is a more permanent solution. You get to kill a creature a turn, if you are lucky enough to have shackles you get an extra blocker/and or something to sacrifice.

If you pair the abyss with any other of the cards mentioned you obviously have a much stronger lock on the game as well. The difference is that their creatures are gone even if the abyss is killed as opposed to a potential gang rush that would ensue if Moat is gone.

EDIT: I guess you can look at it like a chainer's edict per turn vs. the opponent. I figure that's pretty cool.

[pippo84]

I like the idea of The Abyss, but probably it's too slow to affect the game.. Will think about it anyways. But not as a replacement for moat.

[easyrider]

Is there a reason why this deck's win condition isn't Painter's Servant/Grindstone? I understand that the Servant is susceptible to removal, but we should have a CB/Top set up before we try to win.

[pippo84]

Is there a reason why this deck's win condition isn't Painter's Servant/Grindstone? I understand that the Servant is susceptible to removal, but we should have a CB/Top set up before we try to win.

I tried 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Grindstone in my deck for a while.

It wasn't bad, it occupies just 2 slots and it's an "oops I win" option. When you have one in hand you tutor for the other piece and it's GG.

If you have 2 free slots you can do it, but mind your 3 CC drops for Counterbalance then.

Anyways it gave me quite a few wins.

[menace13]

Is there a reason why this deck's win condition isn't Painter's Servant/Grindstone? I understand that the Servant is susceptible to removal, but we should have a CB/Top set up before we try to win.

That is a good question. I think it has to do with removal. There isn't always enough time to find/assemble CounterTop to protect the combo. Zoo with its infi removal (16-21?)for a 1/3 artifact creature in game one just sounds daunting. Also Thopter can survive 3 jitte counters, dodge: Sower,Shackles,Threads,etc. The list to what can hit a Painter and what can get Thopter Foundry is pages longer for a Painter. Sword of the Meek can recurr itself for 1 mana and a target provided Thopter Foundry is out. Nothing Played in Legacy aside Mangara and O-Ring can exile one half.

Blessing isn't played anywhere anymore, but Emrakul and Progenitus(very unlikely to matter, but it is one extra turn)see a good amount of play. The life gain is also an important aspect of it, while it can be argued that Painter will win on the spot. Foundry+Sword will do almost the same thing if active. Every deck but combo plays creature removal. Painter's Stone should be played when it can come out, where Foundry/Sword can be played almost anytime and not be constrained to sitting in hand. That is pretty much all i can think of.

[(nameless one)]

Hello guys,

I have been thinking of building this deck. I actually have most of its pieces and have done some testing on MWS.

Anyways, here is my initial list:


ThopterTop!
Lands:
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins

Other Permanents:
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Rune Snag



Here are some of my card explanations:

As it stands, you probably can tell that I am not running dual lands. Unfortunately, I do not have the budget to purchase them right now. I am trying to build up my store credit, hoping that I'll have enough to purchase one someday. But for now, my mana-base has been working fine for me. I might change the numbers between Islands and Plains depending on the changes on my main.

The namesake cards are there (CB/SDT/TF/SotM)

Permission suite is also present. You might ask why Rune Snag over Daze or Counterspell. I picked Runed Snag over Daze because I find Daze creates tempo loss if you can't create your own tempo. The deck already loses enough tempo via Force of Will and Enlightened Tutor. The reason why I picked Rune Snag is it fits the 2CC drop and its casting cost isnt restrictive. But I find that I can consistently drop Counterbalance no problem and its casting cost wasn't really an issue, so I think I will bring Counterspell back in favor of Rune Snag.

As you can see, I have a lot of 1-ofs. To explain that, I have to tell you that I am a current Quinn player. I chose those one-ofs so I can have a mini-tool box with E-tutor. I picked those (Needle, EE, Threads, O-ring, Fetters, Humility, Bridge, B2B) because I though it would fit my meta. At the end however, I might just run a second Humility over Fetters ($4 Moats only exist online), although I find Fetters to be really helpful against things that O-ring can't target (such as lands).

Mountains on the mana-base: I used to run Firespout but removed them to complement my Tutor toolbox (B2B and Bridge). I have not removed the mountains because it helps out EE. However, I am still uncertain about removing Firespout.

E-tutor vs. SDT numbers: When I was playing Quinn, My ratio was actually 3 Tutor and 4 SDT, but I never really had any problem with 3 SDT on this deck because I can actually back it up with permission. However, I maxed out my Tutors because not only they can find my win conditions and lock pieces, it also enables my toolbox frequently (if that makes sense)

Jace 2.0 vs. Elspeth - Currently, my buddy is letting me borrow his Jace (not only I'm broke, I also have back luck opening packs). I found that the second best alternative is Elspeth and shes really good at what she does. I also think that she fits my meta better (Aggro-meta). I was going to run Tezzeret on Jace's spot but I am trying to balance my 3+ CC for CounterTop.

I personally am a terrible blue-based deck player. I currently have the pieces so I figured I'd give it a try.

Anyone have advices? I am looking forward on hearing from seasoned CounterTop players. Is my build good enough for budget? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[pippo84]

Hello guys,

I have been thinking of building this deck. I actually have most of its pieces and have done some testing on MWS.

Anyways, here is my initial list:



Here are some of my card explanations:

As it stands, you probably can tell that I am not running dual lands. Unfortunately, I do not have the budget to purchase them right now. I am trying to build up my store credit, hoping that I'll have enough to purchase one someday. But for now, my mana-base has been working fine for me. I might change the numbers between Islands and Plains depending on the changes on my main.

The namesake cards are there (CB/SDT/TF/SotM)

Permission suite is also present. You might ask why Rune Snag over Daze or Counterspell. I picked Runed Snag over Daze because I find Daze creates tempo loss if you can't create your own tempo. The deck already loses enough tempo via Force of Will and Enlightened Tutor. The reason why I picked Rune Snag is it fits the 2CC drop and its casting cost isnt restrictive. But I find that I can consistently drop Counterbalance no problem and its casting cost wasn't really an issue, so I think I will bring Counterspell back in favor of Rune Snag.

As you can see, I have a lot of 1-ofs. To explain that, I have to tell you that I am a current Quinn player. I chose those one-ofs so I can have a mini-tool box with E-tutor. I picked those (Needle, EE, Threads, O-ring, Fetters, Humility, Bridge, B2B) because I though it would fit my meta. At the end however, I might just run a second Humility over Fetters ($4 Moats only exist online), although I find Fetters to be really helpful against things that O-ring can't target (such as lands).

Mountains on the mana-base: I used to run Firespout but removed them to complement my Tutor toolbox (B2B and Bridge). I have not removed the mountains because it helps out EE. However, I am still uncertain about removing Firespout.

E-tutor vs. SDT numbers: When I was playing Quinn, My ratio was actually 3 Tutor and 4 SDT, but I never really had any problem with 3 SDT on this deck because I can actually back it up with permission. However, I maxed out my Tutors because not only they can find my win conditions and lock pieces, it also enables my toolbox frequently (if that makes sense)

Jace 2.0 vs. Elspeth - Currently, my buddy is letting me borrow his Jace (not only I'm broke, I also have back luck opening packs). I found that the second best alternative is Elspeth and shes really good at what she does. I also think that she fits my meta better (Aggro-meta). I was going to run Tezzeret on Jace's spot but I am trying to balance my 3+ CC for CounterTop.

I personally am a terrible blue-based deck player. I currently have the pieces so I figured I'd give it a try.

Anyone have advices? I am looking forward on hearing from seasoned CounterTop players. Is my build good enough for budget? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

I really don't like the Fetters. I would cut it for a 4th Top. This deck really benefits from playing 4.

I would also swap the Threads for Vedalken Shackles. It's much more versatile, less narrow, but slower.

You can do just fine with the UW list instead of playing Mountains for Firespout. Opening with a Mountain sucks. Add some Path to Exile in the SB instead.

[menace13]

@Nameless- You can also replace the Misty with Scalding Tarn which also gets your mountains and islands as well.
Rune Snag at 3 seems weaker than Mana Leak which should be Counterspell as you said.

[sauce]

I am running this mana base with 2 firespouts main.


4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

5 Island
2 Plains

2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island (am considering -1 Volcanic +1 Mountain)

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy ruins

The decks you want Firespout against are also the decks that have Wasteland (Merfolk & Goblins)
In my testing resolving Firespout is almost impossible vs Merfolk due to Cursecatchers, and its also very questionable EV since they have Mutavaults.

Its a bit better vs Goblins I guess, but that matchup should just come down to a t4 Moat. So you need to concentrate on being wasteland proof and have an e.tutor and 4 lands by turn 4 and its auto win pretty much.

Granted, keeping them off Lackey -> (Matron ->) SGC is very important while setting up Moat.
My games vs Goblins usually end up in me landing Moat and then e.tutoring/playing a Pithing needle on SGC.

[JonBarber]

Quick jump back to the painter/grindstone idea, why not just play 1 painter 1 grindstone in the sb? Side it in vs non-zoo decks or decks with little removal that are more susceptible to it. Most creature removal is going to get sided out against you anyways.

[sauce]

Quick jump back to the painter/grindstone idea, why not just play 1 painter 1 grindstone in the sb? Side it in vs non-zoo decks or decks with little removal that are more susceptible to it. Most creature removal is going to get sided out against you anyways.

most deck are going to bring in artifact/enchantment hate, and you have to either hit 2 of your 1 outers together and have all this mana to get it out/active, no chance vs a deck like zoo with pridemage which also happens to not side out its lightning bolts and chain lightnings/fireblasts/helices/etc.

don't do it.

[JonBarber]

no chance vs a deck like zoo with pridemage which also happens to not side out its lightning bolts and chain lightnings/fireblasts/helices/etc.

don't do it.

Lets begin by reading before we respond


Side it in vs non-zoo decks or decks with little removal that are more susceptible to it.

Cool, now that we got that figured out. I'm talking more about decks like Reanimator, Merfolk, Combo, Landstill, Dredge, 43 Lands, Stax, Dragon Stompy, etc. Painter/Grindstone is a much faster 2 card combo than sword/thopter, and also isn't susceptible to all of the grave hate still running around. Besides, its 2 cards in the sb, doesn't seem like that much of an investment.

[nexus blue]

1. Adding a Painter/Grindstone combo might work as an alternate win condition, but there are other options that seem to add to the potential of the deck's synergy as well as adding their own game-changing benefits.

2. I've been following both this thread and Hanni's Countertop Walker thread, and there's clearly a good mix of very strong cards that both builds share, as well as a mix of philosophies. Hanni's build eschews E. Tutor for more direct responses, though he's not against E. Tutor itself. This deck seems to not realize the full potential of some of the Planeswalkers as well as Hanni's build does (Jace 2.0 and Elspeth).

I'd really like to work on a combination of the two decks, though I can see it being a jumble of too much good stuff and not enough space. I'm going to post a decklist below; I'll be playing this build in a few days at a local tourney that typically draws 20 - 30 players. Feel free to add your thoughts/comments.

Land
9 Island
8 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Kor Haven


Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Predict


Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility


Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek


Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Wrath of God
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast


As I stated above, I might be reaching for too much here. But Hanni's logic with regards to the power of Planeswalkers (indeed, they're his only win condition) is hard to refute. There has been extensive testing on MWS to prove this, and the recent inclusion of Jace 2.0 in just about any deck running Blue is a god testament. That being said, I think the drawback you run into by discarding Black and it's Vindicates are more than made up for with the inclusion of the E. Tutors and Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek.
On another note, no, I'm not running any duals. I don't have Tundras, but I don't see making my opponent's Wastelands any more useful than necessary. I might even cut the Academy Ruins and the Kor Haven, thought they've both come in plenty of use. Also, I understand the Sideboard is less than optimal, but I'm just posting what I'll be working with - like having only 2 Meddling Mage instead of 4.

Please feel free to give some constructive feedback on how this might play out and potential weaknesses. There's been a lot of good debate and discussion in both this thread and Hanni's Countertop Walker thread, so I know there are thoughts and opinions out there.

[JonBarber]

I got first place at my local tourny today. Matchups were

Dredge 2-0
Mono Brown Stax 2-0
The EPIC Storm 2-0
ID
Mono Brown Stax 2-0
The EPIC Storm 2-0

Only 15 players, and ironically enough I got paired against 2 of my 3 matchups from the swiss. Best part of the tournament was paying 6 for a brainstorm against stax. The deck played nicely, but these certainly weren't the hardest matchups in the world.

[sauce]

I got first place at my local tourny today. Matchups were

Dredge 2-0
Mono Brown Stax 2-0
The EPIC Storm 2-0
ID
Mono Brown Stax 2-0
The EPIC Storm 2-0

Only 15 players, and ironically enough I got paired against 2 of my 3 matchups from the swiss. Best part of the tournament was paying 6 for a brainstorm against stax. The deck played nicely, but these certainly weren't the hardest matchups in the world.

grats post your 75 ty

[easyrider]

@ nexus blue: I don't think that it is a good idea to run both Planeswalkers and Thopter Foundry as win conditions. Planeswalkers are clearly powerful and excellent win conditions, but I think that there is one reason to run Thopter Foundry over them: the speed of our kills. Planeswalkers can be very slow when it comes to closing out games (and Elspeth does not gain you life). Jace is fine because he also draws you a lot of cards when he is out. If you are not going to run Thopter Foundry in the deck, Enlightened Tutor loses a lot of value and there is less reason to run a card that gives you -1 cards.

The most exciting card we can port over is Predict. I think that this deck's biggest weakness is that it tends to run out of cards very quickly if CB/Top is not out. Predict lets us quickly gain back cards, and it is a two for Counterbalance as well. The problem I see with your list is 0 Counterspell. I find Counterspell to be a nice answer to random things, and like having some amount of flexibility in my list.

@ sauce: I understand that most people are boarding in artifact hate, but it is still good against Thopter Foundry as well. Whether they kill Thopter Foundry or kill Painter's Servant, we will have to have to Ruins it back and take an extra turn to set it up either way. I still don't see why it isn't fine maindeck. Isn't this why we play Counterbalance? So we can protect our win conditions as well? Against Zoo, if we don't have CB/Top assembled, a successful activation just kills them, while Thopter Foundry gives them a chance to draw a Pridemage and destroy it the next turn.

[nexus blue]

I can see where Elspeth might come up short. Jace is just a beast, especially with SDT and Predict. As Hanni showed, Predict synergizes so well with SDT and Jace, whether used on yourself or the opponent.
So I could swap Elspeth for a counterspell, but just one extra hard counter seems lame. Plus I'm not a big fan of running one-of's that I can't recurr, just doesn't look right. Anyone else have other thoughts?
Any thoughts on the sideboard?

[DemosLegion]

if fish is problem then why not splash black so u can have e plague so with a humility and e plague they can not play any dudes

[obituary 95]

nexus you are right predict works well with the deck .you can even go e tutor put sword on top then put the sword in the yard due to predict.but the problem i have with this card is that it does not advance our plan in any way , all it does is draw extra cards its not like it fixes any of our bad match ups such as enchantress.

[Tammit67]

if fish is problem then why not splash black so u can have e plague so with a humility and e plague they can not play any dudes

Because that is a very slow solution, especially against a deck running wasteland, daze, and force of will. If you set it up, it only leaves mutavaults to deal with (barring somehow phasing the humilty + coralhelm commander getting counters).

@ nexus: Your aggro matchup looks terrible without a permanent solution to attacks, especially main. I'd like to see ensnaring bridge or moat in place of the elspeth if it fits your style.

[DemosLegion]

How is enchantress bad i hear e tutor 4 serinity is pretty sick

personally i have not lost 2 enchantress yet may just be bad pilots tho
"if there r good 1s that is"

[nexus blue]

@ nexus: Your aggro matchup looks terrible without a permanent solution to attacks, especially main. I'd like to see ensnaring bridge or moat in place of the elspeth if it fits your style.

I would totally run Moat if I had the cash. Before the Predicts I tried a few MD Wrath of God and Propaganda, and while they work decently I have an aversion to the potential of having any more dead cards than normal in a deck. But that's probably more a function of me not being good with my sideboard than me being realistic in what I want the deck to accomplish.
I know the Predicts are cool but not the most advancing and not necessarily the best card choice. But they have added use when other people tutor for cards - it can be used on you or your opponent. And again, this is more something I'll be "trying by fire"; if it doesn't work to my liking I'll add more counterspells, o-rings, etc.

[Anusien]

How is enchantress bad i hear e tutor 4 serinity is pretty sick

personally i have not lost 2 enchantress yet may just be bad pilots tho
"if there r good 1s that is"
Solutions like Serenity are really bad if they have time to set up Karmic Justice, and even if you don't they can still beat you with Replenish. The best single card answer to them is probably Harmonic Convergence. Or Aura of Silence if you can get it down fast enough.

[sauce]

Solutions like Serenity are really bad if they have time to set up Karmic Justice, and even if you don't they can still beat you with Replenish. The best single card answer to them is probably Harmonic Convergence. Or Aura of Silence if you can get it down fast enough.

Aura of silence is the nuts, I run 2 in the board and 1 Seal of Cleansing.
I never lost to enchantress, they cannot beat thopters, just go for the combo, they literrally just cannot win.
It doesnt even matter what they do, you make infi dudes and then just avoid milling out by Academy ruins & EE.
If they go long and don't scoop to thopters cuz they think they can somehow win behind their Solity confinement then you win g1 and then usually there is no time for g2.

Edit: The only thing you care about is Words of war as it prevents them from milling out as well, but you can always EE for 3 and win.
Cards (that could be) main that are usually a problem for us: Choke (very rare, but maybe will be more likely @ the GP), City of Solitude (lets them Oring anything they want w/o you having a response, etc), Ground Seal (annoying since you cannot recur anything from the yard after that)

[pippo84]

Against Enchantress I actually prefer to set up a fast CB and Top and counter most stuff. Then just remember to keep Force of Will/Counterspell for Replenish or the win conditions and you can easily mill them. Even setting up a fast Thopter/Sword is good, but they are more likely to find some answers. Anyways tutor ASAP for the missing part of one of your 2 comboes (CB+Top or Thopter/Sword) and it shouldn't be so difficult.

Post side tutoring ASAP for Aura of Silence is usually GG

[ivanpei]

Been lurking for a while and recently splashed lots of $$$ for a moat. I strongly believe that if it weren't for the limited number of moats, this would be a DTB. Some thoughts I've had when playing the deck. 2/1 thopter sword split. Really? I understand drawing multiples is terrible, however I find it a headache sometimes when I have to tutor both pieces out. This isn't a problem against blue when you have lots of time but against aggro, I like having more more combo pieces. I also realized that most lists I've been seeing on this thread are pretty gas heavy. Ie counterspells, 2/3 Walkers, no daze. I'm pretty worried about the zoo MU as I've been testing that. Preboard is honestly not as easy as most people assume. Pridemage is a problem, but so is lavamancer and burn to the dome. I am not seeing how lists with 2/3 counterspells, 2 Jace, no daze, just 2/1 split of thopter sword is beating zoo. In my testing, by the time I land moat and force pridemage, I'm down to the last quarter of my life (ie 5-7 life), I'm easily within burn range with the above list. Due to this, I'm playing the following list to have a better MU vs zoo yet retain a respectable blue matchup.

4 Enlightened tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Thopter foundry
2 Sword of the meek
1 Jace TMS
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Seat of the synod
1 Academy ruins
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
2 Plains

I have a 2 drop number of 13, which is pretty healthy. The snares are excellent against pridemage/goyf/price of progress vs zoo yet good against blue/combo hitting balance, goyf, bob, tutors etc etc. Playing the 3/2 split IMO is a good way to bump up your 2 casting cost cards while speeding up your combo assembly against aggro. Playing this split in testing has yielded good results. Thopther pitches to force, and I seldom draw double sword of the meek. Single Jace for the blue MU and also as an alternate win con. I'm also thinking of switching my splash to green or black for the board. Here's some examples:
Default 9:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Humility
1 Threads of disloyalty
1 Pithing needle
1 Back to basics

As for the remaining 6, red gives 3 REB, 3 Firespouts. Black: 1 Dark tutelage, 2 Perish, 3 Path to exile. Green: 3 Grips (cut seal of cleansing and oblivion ring), 1 Sylvan Library, 4 Tarmogoyfs

Firespout is amazing vs zoo/folk. Rebs are excellent vs anything blue. Dark tutelage warrants testing but would be good in a blue heavy meta. As for green, grips are always good, if this deck gets popular I think the green splash for grips is a must as mirrors will be common. Bringing the goyfs in against zoo/aggro which board out paths/swords also will be very strong. Tutoring out Sylvan library/ dark tutelage seems very strong VS control. Thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

[Aggro_zombies]

If you're in red, Blood Moon seems much more punishing than Back to Basics against Lands and decks with greedy mana.

[ivanpei]

Agreed, Blood moon -> back to basics in red. Thanks. :)

[pippo84]

I agree about that the 3/2 split gives you more chances to find a piece soon and then tutor for the second. It's a matter of consistency/rendundancy vs versatility. I am testing the 2/1 split atm, but I started playing the 3/2 split when I first built this deck. I will try both in the future and see what fits best. I see you play 1 Jace in your list, I currently play 3!! :tongue:

As for the Daze point. I have to say I don't agree. I have always been a "blue" player and I played Daze in most (if not almost all) my lists. And I always board it out against Zoo. What do you want to Daze against them? And then get back in land drops in a match where you need to hit all your lands asap and don't have much time? That tempo loss can just lose you the game.

Anyways I like your post ending where you talk about splash colours for the SB. I am curently running Black for Perish and Engineered Plague. ProBant, Zoo and Goblins are everywhere in my meta. Also New Horizons and Dredge are gaining popularity and thus my choices.

[sauce]

I have played Blood moon in my SB, and it indeed is better than Back to basics as it does not slow you down at all from making Thopters w/ all your lands.

@ivanpei: cut the dazes and put in some 3 drops, you're better off running 2 firespout and 1 crucible in those slots if you want a better aggro matchup. also you want 22 lands not 21. you cannot afford to miss land drops as others have said.
i've run 2 firespout main deck for last 2 weeks, and it has been very good for me. its not as good vs merfolk because thye have counterspells, but its awesome as a precursor to moat vs goblins or just a way to X-for-1 vs zoo.

[dorkogoyf]

What do you guy think of Leyline of Sanctity from M11 in the sideboard for the Storm/Belcher/Discard matchups in the format?

PS-here's my current list, reconfigured after testing some aggro matchups last night...pretty certain that the Legacy metagame (in general) is trending towards Zoo decks, so this is geared to take advantage of that.

Lands (21):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Snow-Covered Island
2x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
1x Wasteland
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins

Artifact (10):
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (6):
1x Moat
1x Humility
4x Counterbalance

Planeswalker (1):
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant (21):
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares

SB:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Firespout
1x Blood Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Serenity

[JonBarber]

What do you guy think of Leyline of Sanctity from M11 in the sideboard for the Storm/Belcher/Discard matchups in the format?

Uhh, we have 4 force, 3-4 counterspell, 4 counterbalance, pithing needle, ee, and maybe meddling mage on the sb. I think our combo matchup is okay.

[obituary 95]

could you guys please critique this list

1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
2 [A] Plains (2)
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [BRB] Swamp (4)

// Spells
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [TE] Humility
1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Tempest of Light
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage

[JonBarber]

could you guys please critique this list

1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [LRW] Island (3)
2 [A] Plains (2)
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [BRB] Swamp (4)

// Spells
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [TE] Humility
1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [10E] Tempest of Ligh
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage

Underground sea is better than scrubland, and moat is better than humility.

3 Thopter Foundry seems a little overkill.

Cunning Wish seems very weak, and cursed scroll seems iffy. And no jace?

I'm going to assume this a more budget list seeing as theres no moat, usea, or jace. I'd say Jace is pretty important, definitely a good number of wins come from him.

[SMR0079]

Been lurking for a while and recently splashed lots of $$$ for a moat. I strongly believe that if it weren't for the limited number of moats, this would be a DTB. Some thoughts I've had when playing the deck. 2/1 thopter sword split. Really? I understand drawing multiples is terrible, however I find it a headache sometimes when I have to tutor both pieces out. This isn't a problem against blue when you have lots of time but against aggro, I like having more more combo pieces. I also realized that most lists I've been seeing on this thread are pretty gas heavy. Ie counterspells, 2/3 Walkers, no daze. I'm pretty worried about the zoo MU as I've been testing that. Preboard is honestly not as easy as most people assume. Pridemage is a problem, but so is lavamancer and burn to the dome. I am not seeing how lists with 2/3 counterspells, 2 Jace, no daze, just 2/1 split of thopter sword is beating zoo. In my testing, by the time I land moat and force pridemage, I'm down to the last quarter of my life (ie 5-7 life), I'm easily within burn range with the above list. Due to this, I'm playing the following list to have a better MU vs zoo yet retain a respectable blue matchup.

4 Enlightened tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Thopter foundry
2 Sword of the meek
1 Jace TMS
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Seat of the synod
1 Academy ruins
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
2 Plains

I have a 2 drop number of 13, which is pretty healthy. The snares are excellent against pridemage/goyf/price of progress vs zoo yet good against blue/combo hitting balance, goyf, bob, tutors etc etc. Playing the 3/2 split IMO is a good way to bump up your 2 casting cost cards while speeding up your combo assembly against aggro. Playing this split in testing has yielded good results. Thopther pitches to force, and I seldom draw double sword of the meek. Single Jace for the blue MU and also as an alternate win con. I'm also thinking of switching my splash to green or black for the board. Here's some examples:
Default 9:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Humility
1 Threads of disloyalty
1 Pithing needle
1 Back to basics

As for the remaining 6, red gives 3 REB, 3 Firespouts. Black: 1 Dark tutelage, 2 Perish, 3 Path to exile. Green: 3 Grips (cut seal of cleansing and oblivion ring), 1 Sylvan Library, 4 Tarmogoyfs

Firespout is amazing vs zoo/folk. Rebs are excellent vs anything blue. Dark tutelage warrants testing but would be good in a blue heavy meta. As for green, grips are always good, if this deck gets popular I think the green splash for grips is a must as mirrors will be common. Bringing the goyfs in against zoo/aggro which board out paths/swords also will be very strong. Tutoring out Sylvan library/ dark tutelage seems very strong VS control. Thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

Zoo is tough game 1. Running the extra combo peices will certainly help as getting the combo online pronto is your best line toward victory. I have made many of the same observations/points as you have posted. I'll try to address them.

I have tried splashing multiple colors black, red, green, they all have merits - but at the end of the day the deck really needs to be 2.5 colors. Against decks like NewHorizons and Merfolk to a lesser extent, all you need to do is develop a solid manabase that can't be wastelanded. You simply play basics, kill a couple guys and force through Moat/Humility/Bridge. This is leading me to beleive that Crucible is actually necassary.

I got greedy and splashed black this last weekened and paid the price. Grips for counterbalance decks are really the only card that you need to splash for.

I cut the Dazes awhile ago for all of the reasons stated, I do like snare and counterspell though. Against aggro you just load up on 3-4 Paths, killing their guys while you either get the combo online or lock things up. Humility should be maindeck as well as you side it in agaisnt everything except Storm/Lands. CoP Red should also be in the board.

You desperatly need Pithing Needle main deck. It stops Vial and Pridemage.

Oh yeah, add a 22nd land.

[ivanpei]

Ok, thanks for the constructive feedback guys. I'm going to go -4 daze, + 2 counterspell, + 1 Jace + land MD. @ humility main, tried it, played it, died too 1/1s too many times and the deck got 4 drop heavy. @ needle MD, i think this is good, but I don' like too many silver bullets. I 'll try this more mana intensive list and see how it pans out. I've got a zoo list 90% built so I'll have my friend pilot it in testing. In the board, assuming I splash green, Would you rather have paths or goyfs? Against folk path > goyf (islandwalkers), against zoo, goyf > path after they board their paths out. I'm guessing path is less narrow, but against folk, slam moat is GG if you deal with their bounce/commander. I'll put a COP red in the board. What is it for? Zoo? I'm guessing it saves you from a back breaking price of progress/ lavamancer to the face.

[dorkogoyf]

I'll put a COP red in the board. What is it for? Zoo? I'm guessing it saves you from a back breaking price of progress/ lavamancer to the face.

It's better against Vial Goblins, although it does have its uses against Zoo.

[Tammit67]

Honestly rather run CoP: Green. New horizons and Bant hate it

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys,

Here is my current list right now. There is an upcoming tournament at my local store and I was thinking of piloting this deck (There will be a lot of Zoo and tribal aggro)


ThopterTop!
Lands:
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins

Other Permanents:
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

One of my dilemmas is the dude I usually borrow the planeswalkers will not be there. I cannot really think of alternate win-conditions that is 4CC . What are some good alternatives for the planeswalkers? Would Conundrum Sphinx be a good alternative?

Any other suggestions? Also, whats a good overall sideboard against an aggro meta? I know Path to Exile should be there but what should I side out?

Thanks in advance!

[Tammit67]

I really like Kitchen Finks against aggro. Path and firespout go without saying though.

[pippo84]

I really like Kitchen Finks against aggro. Path and firespout go without saying though.

Against aggro you must play Firespout or Perish/Engineered Plague. Also path is a good call.

It depends on what aggro you are facing what to cut. Lately I have been playing Baneslayer Angel in my SB. Since opponents cut removals and bring in artifact/enchantment hate it's a real beating! I also played a 1 of Divinity of Wonders. Secret tech!

[SMR0079]

Ok, thanks for the constructive feedback guys. I'm going to go -4 daze, + 2 counterspell, + 1 Jace + land MD. @ humility main, tried it, played it, died too 1/1s too many times and the deck got 4 drop heavy. @ needle MD, i think this is good, but I don' like too many silver bullets. I 'll try this more mana intensive list and see how it pans out. I've got a zoo list 90% built so I'll have my friend pilot it in testing. In the board, assuming I splash green, Would you rather have paths or goyfs? Against folk path > goyf (islandwalkers), against zoo, goyf > path after they board their paths out. I'm guessing path is less narrow, but against folk, slam moat is GG if you deal with their bounce/commander. I'll put a COP red in the board. What is it for? Zoo? I'm guessing it saves you from a back breaking price of progress/ lavamancer to the face.

I had humility in the SB then found that I was bring it in agaisnt everything except for Storm, Lands, and the mirror. It also stops Pridemage cold. You could run Moat and Bridge main and keep Humility in the board.


Honestly rather run CoP: Green. New horizons and Bant hate it

Just play basics, board in 3 Paths and they can't beat you without high variance.

[pippo84]

If you are having problems against Zoo, New Horizons or Bant try the Black splash for Perish!

I actually found that matches against other CB lists are pretty much won by who can land CB + Top first. Obviously you can always trick your opponent and land yours, and it's one of the matches I prefer!

P.S. Check out the article: Zoo vs Counterbalance. It's interesting and talks about Thopters..

[SMR0079]

If you are having problems against Zoo, New Horizons or Bant try the Black splash for Perish!

I actually found that matches against other CB lists are pretty much won by who can land CB + Top first. Obviously you can always trick your opponent and land yours, and it's one of the matches I prefer!

P.S. Check out the article: Zoo vs Counterbalance. It's interesting and talks about Thopters..

As tempting as the black splash may be it is incorrect. Your own manabase and play error are the two things that lead to losses with this deck more then anything else.

Persih can be a blow out, but often you can;t afford to take wait for them to drop the 3rd, or 4th green guy. Path, Spell Snare, Humility/Moat, and extra comb peices will beat Zoo while retaining stability across the metagame.

In the mirror, Grips, Cliques, Crucible,Ruins, EE, and Jace are your trumps.

[pippo84]

As tempting as the black splash may be it is incorrect. Your own manabase and play error are the two things that lead to losses with this deck more then anything else.

Persih can be a blow out, but often you can;t afford to take wait for them to drop the 3rd, or 4th green guy. Path, Spell Snare, Humility/Moat, and extra comb peices will beat Zoo while retaining stability across the metagame.

In the mirror, Grips, Cliques, Crucible,Ruins, EE, and Jace are your trumps.

Since I only run two main colors (UW) and B just as a splash my manabase is really stable.

Perish is an additional removal that complements Humility/Moat. Think about it instead of Path to Exile. Instead of hitting just 1 creature it get's more. It owns Zoo, New Horizons and Bant. Btw you can sword their guys and wait to have a better Perish. Just sword the critters of other colors against Zoo.

Black also offers Extirpate, that is a narrow card, but it owns the mirror.

[Tammit67]

Just play basics, board in 3 Paths and they can't beat you without high variance.

I don't expect to lose against them. It's just another thing that helps. It's really the Worm harvest that worries me if anything.

[SMR0079]

Since I only run two main colors (UW) and B just as a splash my manabase is really stable.

Perish is an additional removal that complements Humility/Moat. Think about it instead of Path to Exile. Instead of hitting just 1 creature it get's more. It owns Zoo, New Horizons and Bant. Btw you can sword their guys and wait to have a better Perish. Just sword the critters of other colors against Zoo.

Black also offers Extirpate, that is a narrow card, but it owns the mirror.

I should have been more specific - the deck needs to be 2.5 colors - adding too much of the 3rd color or splashing 2 colors is incorect.

Perish is really good agaisnt all of those decks - but even in those matchups you often cannot affrod to wait for them to drop the 2nd green creature, and a good Zoo/Horizons opponent will play around it. The other issue is you only have so many slots to dedicate to aggro. Even though Path is one for one I prefer it becsaue it keeps you alive long enough vs all aggro long enough to resolve and protect Moat or get the combo rolling. The Merfolk match itself is enough to push me toward having 3 Path in the SB.

The other isse is the mirror. While Extirpating the Sword is a good move, I would rather have Grip to hit counterblance. I have found that the mirror usually involves a counterbalance war, followed by who can get Jace going. Crucible and Clique are two 3 drops that will also help you get there. The combo itself is actually pretty low on my lines of play in the mirror.

Now, if the meta shifts again toward more combo and control then having black for Bob or Dark Tutelage and Perish in the board makes sense, at which point I would have to reevaluate the Grips.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've been looking into :w::u::r: lately, with the red just being a small splash. However, there are a couple of nice things it gives you:

- Firespout: just as effective against Zoo as Perish, but also good against tribal when combined with lots of Plow effects.
- Ajani Vengeant: owns control HARD. You can't always count on Jace to get there for you since they'll have Jaces of their own, and Ajani V. blowing up all of their lands is just a total, well, blowout.

I should mention that I run 4 Swords main and 3 PtE, 3 Firepout side. Against Zoo, I drop my counters for the extra removal and just overload them. You can stop almost all of their burn spells with Counterbalance on one, and you just one-for-one their guys until you get Humility or Thopter Foundry going.

[Tammit67]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Celestial Colonnade *
5 Island
3 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Daze *

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Path to Exile
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing needle
1 ??????



The ***'s are stuff I'm unsure of. Colonnade is there for another dual, but also a manland. Factories were hurting my colors, but this might be a bad replacement. Daze is useful, as keeping things off the board initially is worth the land drop. Need help, especially with the sideboard. Not a fan of firespout tbh. Would like to fit in trinket mage if possible and/or needle, but a second Jace comes first

[SMR0079]

I've been looking into :w::u::r: lately, with the red just being a small splash. However, there are a couple of nice things it gives you:

- Firespout: just as effective against Zoo as Perish, but also good against tribal when combined with lots of Plow effects.
- Ajani Vengeant: owns control HARD. You can't always count on Jace to get there for you since they'll have Jaces of their own, and Ajani V. blowing up all of their lands is just a total, well, blowout.

I should mention that I run 4 Swords main and 3 PtE, 3 Firepout side. Against Zoo, I drop my counters for the extra removal and just overload them. You can stop almost all of their burn spells with Counterbalance on one, and you just one-for-one their guys until you get Humility or Thopter Foundry going.

I do love me some firespout, and have played in the past. However, I don't think that you can really afford to devote 6 spots to aggro in a devloped metagame that includes countertop and combo. That being said, I think it would be useful for people to post their boards and indicate what they are facing. You comments against Zoo are spot on and thats how I play the match, but would add that needling priodemage is important.

On another note, I don't think we need to spam the thread with full decklists anymore, especially when the core of the deck is a given now. Choosing the tutor targets, extra counters, and what color to splash are where we can tweak the deck.

Here's my board for a developed metagame with all players present:

1 Tsabo's Web
1 Canonist
1 CoP Red
1 Wheel Sun & Moon
1 Crypt
1 Relic
3 Grip
3 Path
3 Spell Peirce

Maindeck: Moat, Humility, EE, Needle, Crucible, 1 Oblivion Ring. 2 Counterspell, 1 Vendillion Clique. The Oring and the Relic move back and fourth between the maindeck and board. We have several control players who run something that resembles the mirror and Clique is really good in those matches. We have also seen an emergence of Emarkul decks whcih make ORing alot better.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sure. I've been looking at this for the GP:

3 Firespout
3 Path to Exile
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Aura of Silence
3 Spell Pierce
1 ???

The Pierces can't be optimal, but I wanted something extra for combo. I don't want to add a fourth color for Grip. I'm thinking the last spot should be Blood Moon, but we'll see.

[Anusien]

You should have a Back to Basics or a Blood Moon (probably a Back to Basics so you can fetch and hit your basics and your Islands) to beat Lands.

Splashing green for Grip is perfectly fine. You only need it once, and you don't need to do it against decks with Wasteland. A single Tropical Island will do it.

[flrn]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Celestial Colonnade *
5 Island
3 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Daze *

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Path to Exile
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing needle
1 ??????



The ***'s are stuff I'm unsure of. Colonnade is there for another dual, but also a manland. Factories were hurting my colors, but this might be a bad replacement. Daze is useful, as keeping things off the board initially is worth the land drop. Need help, especially with the sideboard. Not a fan of firespout tbh. Would like to fit in trinket mage if possible and/or needle, but a second Jace comes first

I don't know where to start to comment on your list. There's so many stuff i would approach in a completely different way. Let's start with the manabase.

Celestial Colonnade

Yeah it works with Humility and Moat. It doesn't work with Ensnaring Bridge, because you don't want to keep 4 cards in your hand to have your manland attacking. I would cut it, because you don't want an enters the battlefield tapped land in your opening seven. It's horrible when you face combo or fast aggro decks, because you need those turn 1 plays. And when i look at your list, you have 16 of them. That means you'll have always something to do on turn 1. Playing this land on your first turn is a timewalk for your opponent. It's also horrible with Daze, because you need to ramp to 6 mana to be able to effectively use this card. Yeah i know this is a control deck, but still using 6 mana every turn just to attack is bad. Other manlands are also bad, since they wont fix your mana and weaken your mana base against Wasteland and Moon effects.

-> Play more basics. They are awesome.

Don't play Daze

You aren't a tempo deck. You can't make use of the effect. Good opponents will play around Daze anyway, if they realize you play this card. You need every freakin landdrop to stay on the table, because this deck is as manahungry as it gets. Against fast aggro decks, you need to have 4 mana by turn 4 to drop one of your bombs.

Ensnaring Bridge vs. Counters

I'm not saying Ensnaring Bridge is a bad card in this deck. The card just doesn't work well with Counters. You don't want Counters staying in your hand with a Bridge on the table, since a clever opponent will simply attack and won't cast any spells. When the game goes in this direction against an aggro deck your best play is most likely to counter your own Brainstorm to get a better use out of the bridge. So you have to decide: Counters or Bridge.

Moat vs. Humility

Both are awesome. But they don't quite work together. If you have both of em on the table your only win option is Jace. Against most decks Humility is good enough on is own. It stops so many critters from working as they should and slows aggro decks down. I personally would cut Moat and put it in the board against stuff like Merfolk, where Moat is simply better than Humility.

Counterbalance

When building a deck around Counterbalance you need to take a look at the converted mana costs your cards have. To sum up your deck, you have:

1x cc0
16x cc1
13x cc2
1x cc3
3x cc4
4x cc5

The common problem i had when building this deck was that i never had enough cc2 spells. Playing more counters does solve this, but your cc3 couldn't get any weaker. The meta shifted. So many important cards are in the cc3 spots these days. So you should really up the cc3 spot a bit. Also Krosan Grip is a cc3 card and your only answer to this card is Counterbalance.

Enlightened Tutor

I recommend using a toolbox for this card. Like this you have more options to win preboard games. Good cards for a toolbox is stuff like Journey to Nowhere, more Engineered Explosives, Relic of Progenitus (even if you don't face any graveyard based strategy it's "Draw a card" for 2 mana), Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo and Back to Basics. I realized that this deck doesn't need any more counters than 4 Force of Will, because you can react to most of the stuff an opponent does to you, because you can tutor up anything from your deck. And you still have the Counterbalance softlock.

I really like this deck. You are beating your opponents face with softlocks until he can't do anything anymore. If you play this deck straight UW you should play as much basics as you can. I would splash red for Firespout, but i guess that's a meta choice. I would also play a third Foundry and a second Jace, to find my win conditions faster. Also opponents will use their artifact/enchantment destruction in game 2 against Foundry, so you really don't want to draw your whole library before you can win, if 1 gets destroyed.

On an unrelated note: Sorry for my bad english

[dorkogoyf]

Here's my current sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility (may switch this with mainboard Moat)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Back to Basics (debating switching this with Blood Moon; Moon turns off our Fetches but Back to Basics turns off our duals :/)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity

I am running 2 Spell Snares main and love them to death. It's a great solution to a ton of Turn 2 cards on the draw. Obviously, a lot of the best cards in the format are 2cc so it's natural to build around this idea.

I've found that loading up on Pyroblast and Paths against Fish makes the match a cakewalk. The Pyroblasts also pull double duty in the Countertop matchups; 1 mana to counter Force, Balance, Thopter Foundry makes them an extra 3 counters, and it hits Rhox War Monk and more importantly, Trygon Predator.

I've also altered my fetchland base to accommodate the red splash (consisting of one basic Mountain and a Volcanic Island; I may drop the Volcanic Island for a regular one):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

[Anusien]

With Counterbalance, Islands are more important than Plains. I've had no issues with 4 Flooded Strand 4 Scalding Tarn 1 Mountain 1 Volcanic Island.

I agree with most things flrn says, but I don't like running a toolbox for Enlightened Tutor. It's an invitation to get Krosan Gripped.

I'm also now convinced that Moat is better than Humility because it shines in basically every matchup. You need Needle on Pridemage, but that's it.

[SMR0079]

Here's my current sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility (may switch this with mainboard Moat)
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Back to Basics (debating switching this with Blood Moon; Moon turns off our Fetches but Back to Basics turns off our duals :/)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity

I am running 2 Spell Snares main and love them to death. It's a great solution to a ton of Turn 2 cards on the draw. Obviously, a lot of the best cards in the format are 2cc so it's natural to build around this idea.

I've found that loading up on Pyroblast and Paths against Fish makes the match a cakewalk. The Pyroblasts also pull double duty in the Countertop matchups; 1 mana to counter Force, Balance, Thopter Foundry makes them an extra 3 counters, and it hits Rhox War Monk and more importantly, Trygon Predator.

I've also altered my fetchland base to accommodate the red splash (consisting of one basic Mountain and a Volcanic Island; I may drop the Volcanic Island for a regular one):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

If you don't mind the absence of Grips, the red spalsh is awesome. I would cut -1 Path, -1 REB, -1 EE for 3 Firespout if I was you. What's up withy Serenity? I've seen it in a few boards, but outside of Stax or something, when do need it? It's probaly not going to resolve in the mirror if they have CounterbalanceTop. I also question MMage because he doesn't really stop Storm all that well anymore now that they have both Empty and Tendrils, not to mention you want a way to intereact when they go off turn 2 on the play. I choose Spell Pierce for those reasons.

I'm with you on Snare. I was running a 2/2 split with Counterspell for awhile, and it's much better then Daze in this deck.


With Counterbalance, Islands are more important than Plains. I've had no issues with 4 Flooded Strand 4 Scalding Tarn 1 Mountain 1 Volcanic Island.

I agree with most things flrn says, but I don't like running a toolbox for Enlightened Tutor. It's an invitation to get Krosan Gripped.

I'm also now convinced that Moat is better than Humility because it shines in basically every matchup. You need Needle on Pridemage, but that's it.

The Mesa is worth it becasue you run so many islands and need to be able to fetch basic plains on turn 1-2 if necassary.

Moat is superior overall, but Humility comes in vs everything but Storm, LAnds, and the mirror. There's really no reason not to run both. Your curve is short on 3s which makes Bridge so attractive, but it's fairly easy to accomadate both Maot and Humility main with all of the tutuor search.

Maybe we have different understandings of tool box but this deck definitly has one, you allude to as much when mentioing Needle. I think we just need to be very conservative about the "bullets" that are included. Moat/Humilty/Bridge are no brainers, EE, Needle as well, and sometimes Relic follow. I agree that maindecking Back to Basics is bad. Crucible is one that I'm on the fence about. If you start seeing the mirror along with wasetlands decks ever event then I think it can be justified.

We have tried both Back to Basics and Tsabo's web. I prefer the later becsaue it comes down a turn sooner, doesn't tap down your duals (nor theirs which is the trade off), and cantrips. Back to Basics is nore versatile, but we decided we didn't really want to bring it in vs Horizons, so it it became a single bomb , along with Wheel against Lands.

[dorkogoyf]

What's up withy Serenity? I've seen it in a few boards, but outside of Stax or something, when do need it?

I asked in another forum, they said that Serenity is in the board for Prison decks (DragonStompy, Enchantress, Stax).

I forgot to mention, I'm also running the Wasteland/Crucible of Worlds 'combo.'

[Tammit67]

I don't know where to start to comment on your list. There's so many stuff i would approach in a completely different way. Let's start with the manabase.

Celestial Colonnade

Yeah it works with Humility and Moat. It doesn't work with Ensnaring Bridge, because you don't want to keep 4 cards in your hand to have your manland attacking. I would cut it, because you don't want an enters the battlefield tapped land in your opening seven. It's horrible when you face combo or fast aggro decks, because you need those turn 1 plays. And when i look at your list, you have 16 of them. That means you'll have always something to do on turn 1. Playing this land on your first turn is a timewalk for your opponent. It's also horrible with Daze, because you need to ramp to 6 mana to be able to effectively use this card. Yeah i know this is a control deck, but still using 6 mana every turn just to attack is bad. Other manlands are also bad, since they wont fix your mana and weaken your mana base against Wasteland and Moon effects.

-> Play more basics. They are awesome.

That is the way I was leaning. It was cute, but not worth the slot.


Don't play Daze

You aren't a tempo deck. You can't make use of the effect. Good opponents will play around Daze anyway, if they realize you play this card. You need every freakin landdrop to stay on the table, because this deck is as manahungry as it gets. Against fast aggro decks, you need to have 4 mana by turn 4 to drop one of your bombs.

I don't like going for a turn 2 CB, only to have it countered, and then get something nasty dropped on me. It too, after some testing, has lost it's value.


Ensnaring Bridge vs. Counters

I'm not saying Ensnaring Bridge is a bad card in this deck. The card just doesn't work well with Counters. You don't want Counters staying in your hand with a Bridge on the table, since a clever opponent will simply attack and won't cast any spells. When the game goes in this direction against an aggro deck your best play is most likely to counter your own Brainstorm to get a better use out of the bridge. So you have to decide: Counters or Bridge.

Some thinking lead me to the same conclusion, even if it hasn't yet shown itself. Had already cut it for the second Jace. Was originally a solution to the quicker aggro decks that the extra mana for moat was too much.


Moat vs. Humility

Both are awesome. But they don't quite work together. If you have both of em on the table your only win option is Jace. Against most decks Humility is good enough on is own. It stops so many critters from working as they should and slows aggro decks down. I personally would cut Moat and put it in the board against stuff like Merfolk, where Moat is simply better than Humility.

Sure I only have one way to win, without academy recursion. But they probably dont have anything at all. Not entirely sold on this one


Counterbalance

When building a deck around Counterbalance you need to take a look at the converted mana costs your cards have. To sum up your deck, you have:

1x cc0
16x cc1
13x cc2
1x cc3
3x cc4
4x cc5

The common problem i had when building this deck was that i never had enough cc2 spells. Playing more counters does solve this, but your cc3 couldn't get any weaker. The meta shifted. So many important cards are in the cc3 spots these days. So you should really up the cc3 spot a bit. Also Krosan Grip is a cc3 card and your only answer to this card is Counterbalance.

The fact I can't really respond to Grip and that they only are going to have it post board is really what I care about. Sure I can float a three on top, but Grip will come down when I am forced to draw it or rearrange it so i don't draw it. What else at 3 do I really not like?


Enlightened Tutor

I recommend using a toolbox for this card. Like this you have more options to win preboard games. Good cards for a toolbox is stuff like Journey to Nowhere, more Engineered Explosives, Relic of Progenitus (even if you don't face any graveyard based strategy it's "Draw a card" for 2 mana), Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo and Back to Basics. I realized that this deck doesn't need any more counters than 4 Force of Will, because you can react to most of the stuff an opponent does to you, because you can tutor up anything from your deck. And you still have the Counterbalance softlock.
The 2 slow is terrible, hence the choice of counters. I don't like the idea of journey to nowhere though, and am hard pressed for something other than more combo pieces. The counterspell comes in handy so often though, especially against slower decks. It's nice to interact


I really like this deck. You are beating your opponents face with softlocks until he can't do anything anymore. If you play this deck straight UW you should play as much basics as you can. I would splash red for Firespout, but i guess that's a meta choice. I would also play a third Foundry and a second Jace, to find my win conditions faster. Also opponents will use their artifact/enchantment destruction in game 2 against Foundry, so you really don't want to draw your whole library before you can win, if 1 gets destroyed.

On an unrelated note: Sorry for my bad english
Your english is more than fine. Thanks for the feedback.

[flrn]

Another thing worth mentioning about the red splash, is the fact, that you are able to set Engineered Explosives to 3. I even have another offcolour dual in my list to be able to set Explosives on 4, if needed. I will post my last list, so you can get a clue what I'm talking about.

//Mana (23)

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//Instants (16)

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorcery (2)

2 Firespout

//Enchantment (6)

4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

//Artifacts (11)

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

//Planeswalker (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard (15)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Spell Pierce
1 Blood Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vedalken Shackles

The red splash also allows us to play a Blood Moon in the Sideboard. If you don't splash red, you really should have Back to Basics in that Sideboard slot. On the first look Crucible of Worlds seem bad, but the card allows us to break through a Wasteland-Lock or to use our Fetchlands multiple times. But the most important thing about Crucible is, that even without Sword of the Meek, we can produce 1 Token a turn with Seat of the Synod. This seems really slow, but it won me games.

My deck has the following converted manacosts: 2x cc0, 16x cc1, 8x cc2, 4x cc3, 3x cc4, 4x cc5. I'm a bit short on the cc2 spot, but since i play 23 lands i always had the mana to be able to juggle the second Counterbalance or a win option for some time on top of my library with my Sensei's Divining Top.

Other than that i always wanted Humility preboard, since it stops so many creatures from working as they should. And I'm not only talking about Qasali Pridemage. There's also Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Siege-Gang Commander, Weathered Wayfarer and it beats random flying critters an opponents deck might play. Moat might be better against Goblins and Merfolk, but i can easily board it in and Humility also quite destroys their strategy.

As I already mentioned the offcolour Tropical is there, to set Explosives on 4 and to be able to use Firespout to its fullest, if needed.

[dorkogoyf]

Did some Ponder-ing on this deck at the store tonight between matches at FNM.

Does <card>Intuition</card> have a place in this deck? If we go up to 3x Thopter Foundry, we have a high chance of drawing it every game. Then our Intuition pile is Sword of the Meek and 2x 0-Cost Artifacts (Explosives/ Seat of the Synod/Tormod's Crypt). It helps pad our 3-cost for flipping to Counterbalance.

Just a thought...

[NiRVeS]

Hi all.

I'm probably asking for a huge favor here, but I thought I could give it a shot anyway. I have a tournament tomorrow (in like...13 hours I guess?) and decided to try out CB-thopters. I normally play ANT (decklist nuked by mystical banning, and I need some time to get to know the new DD-fueled list), Quinn (given the expected meta, not a good call) or UBg Faeries (little bored of it atm), but given the reasons I listed I'm willing to dive into something new. Since I haven't had a lot of time to test, I sticking to the list which won latest SCG 5k. Seems reasonable, I guess. For reference:

Maindeck:

//Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Tormod's Crypt

//Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat > There's a pretty good chance I'll have to play Humility here, due to card availability. Or would Teferi's Moat (I know...) be a better replacement?

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Artifact Lands
1 Seat of the Synod

//Basic Lands
6 Island
2 Plains

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

//Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Humility
1 Serenity
1 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast

First some quick blurbs before I get to the favor-asking:
- Expected field, in order of importance: Bant (CB or survival), Merfolks, Goblins, Zoo, Combo (NLS/TES/DDFT), Faeries (UBr), Rock and Ichorid. Notably missing should be Loam, Belcher, Thopters en Landstill, other archtypes show up sporadically but mostly as 1-2 offs.
- Given this field and lack of Moat: should I try to squeeze in some firespouts? If so, what do I cut?
- Since most ppl will side out their creature-removal, would adding baneslayer angels to the sideboard be a good idea? I'd cut 1 Serenity, 1 Canonist and maybe the 1 EE (unless someone can convince me otherwise?

Now here's the favor thing: I absolutely SUCK at sideboarding. Especially when I have to reverse engineer it from a decklist full of one-offs I joinked from the net...you know, kinda like this one. So would anyone be willing to give me a quick guide on how to do this with the above decklist, for the decks I listed earlier: Bant (CB or survival), Merfolks, Goblins, Zoo, Combo (NLS/TES/DDFT), Faeries (UBr), Rock and Ichorid? It would be a real help. You can disregard the BSA-plan, although including it would be super awesome, of course :). Since offering a*s on this forum is against the rules (I think?), all I can promise in return is a nice long tournament report. But really, if anyone would be willing to help me out here, he (she)'ll have my eternal gratitude.

Thanks a lot,

Tom

[ivanpei]

Did some testing over the weekend with my list (notable differences 3/2 thopter sword split, 3 snare, 2 counterspell, no daze, moat MD, 22 land) against zoo and UGB jacestill. Snare was a standout, being useful vs more or less everything (from standstill to counterspell, to pridemage to goyf). 3/2 thopter split was also stand out vs zoo. I find that beating zoo preboard without dazes was fine, as long as you swords/force early drops and race to assemble the combo. They play 4 pridemages but you run enough answers to it. 22nd land was a bit heavy. I got flooded quite a bit so I'm cutting the 9th fetch. Counterspell was so-so but good vs landstill. I have to say, landstill was a terrible match up. I got destroyed by deeds, jace (they have 4). They simply have more bombs than us. I will also support fact that moat > humility any day in the md. I get killed by too many 1/1s while trying to assemble to combo. Moat is also golden vs manlands. Some weak cards I observed vs landstill: Enlightened tutor- god the card disadvantage hurts, STP- for obvious reasons. Insufficient Jaces. Deed is a major major problem. It stops me from assembling anything. I have to tutor for EE @ 3 first before I can do anything. I'm thinking of going -22nd land for either a 3rd jace, needle or oring to help this matchup. Which would be more appropriate?

[Anusien]

23 lands is the absolute minimum. I would strongly consider 24.

[Aggro_zombies]

Did some testing over the weekend with my list (notable differences 3/2 thopter sword split, 3 snare, 2 counterspell, no daze, moat MD, 22 land) against zoo and UGB jacestill. Snare was a standout, being useful vs more or less everything (from standstill to counterspell, to pridemage to goyf). 3/2 thopter split was also stand out vs zoo. I find that beating zoo preboard without dazes was fine, as long as you swords/force early drops and race to assemble the combo. They play 4 pridemages but you run enough answers to it. 22nd land was a bit heavy. I got flooded quite a bit so I'm cutting the 9th fetch. Counterspell was so-so but good vs landstill. I have to say, landstill was a terrible match up. I got destroyed by deeds, jace (they have 4). They simply have more bombs than us. I will also support fact that moat > humility any day in the md. I get killed by too many 1/1s while trying to assemble to combo. Moat is also golden vs manlands. Some weak cards I observed vs landstill: Enlightened tutor- god the card disadvantage hurts, STP- for obvious reasons. Insufficient Jaces. Deed is a major major problem. It stops me from assembling anything. I have to tutor for EE @ 3 first before I can do anything. I'm thinking of going -22nd land for either a 3rd jace, needle or oring to help this matchup. Which would be more appropriate?
What colors are you? If you're in black, Vindicate is better than more Jace, Needle, or ORing. Needle should be in your 75 anyway, but there are simply too many relevant targets for it against Jacestill: Deed, EE, Jace. If you Needle any one of those, the other two will get you, so...

Tezzeret is also pretty good against control. He allows you to slowroll the Thopter combo and can allow you to kill your opponent in a single turn if you build up enough loyalty to ultimate him, then make a bunch of Thopters into 5/5 flying guys.

If you're in red, Ajani Vengeant is pretty good against control. They can't really get rid of him, he locks down Factories, and then Armageddons them, which no control deck likes. You're going to have to fight to resolve him, but if you do, he warps the game even more than Jace does.

Landstill is always going to be a bad matchup. Basically, whenever two controllish decks sit down across from each other, the more controlling deck of the two is favored heavily to win. It's why aggro-control and midrange tend to be total dogs to true control decks; the control decks can simply stop the opponent from getting anywhere, and the control deck's card advantage elements matter much more.

[ivanpei]

I was in red. Now I'm convinced that zoo isn't that terrible of a matchup, I'm considering switching my splash. I think 3 paths in the board is sufficient for stopping zoo. Just need to stall and assemble the combo. Vindicate seems good, but not tuterable. I played vindicate in UBw landstill and it seemed pretty clunky, I'd play the 2nd EE over a vindicate, being able to sweep is relevant. Tezzeret is a good idea. Anyone has tried testing it? Is it better over Jace no. 3? I'm a bit skeptical because 5 mana is very heavy, maybe in the board. So now its black vs green splash. Red for spout is overkill IMO vs aggro. Aggro should be an excellent MU already. Green gives grips, sylvan library (maybe goyfs), black has dark tutelage, perish (no-pro, zoo, bant). I think Sylvan library -> dark tutelage vs landstill. Being able to E.tutor turn one into turn 2 sylvan and dig 6 cards in the following 2 turns is huge! This has to be tested IMO. Will update on results. Grips VS deed (assuming he passes priority or doesn't have enough mana to pop) is good. the issue is Jace. However I think leading with a sylvan library and drawing a lot of counterspells is the best bet. Sylvan IMO maybe even good enough MD. It's a 2cc for counterbalance, serves as top no 5 (although a pretty bad one) and a strong CA bomb vs slow control/ landstill (which is usually a bad matchup). It also has synergy with the life gain of thopters. I disagree with 23 lands being the minimum. I'm comfortable with 21/22. I don't miss my 4th drop ever, and seldom miss my 5th drop.

[Aggro_zombies]

I was in red. Now I'm convinced that zoo isn't that terrible of a matchup, I'm considering switching my splash. I think 3 paths in the board is sufficient for stopping zoo. Just need to stall and assemble the combo.

Vindicate seems good, but not tuterable. I played vindicate in UBw landstill and it seemed pretty clunky, I'd play the 2nd EE over a vindicate, being able to sweep is relevant.

Tezzeret is a good idea. Anyone has tried testing it? Is it better over Jace no. 3? I'm a bit skeptical because 5 mana is very heavy, maybe in the board.

So now its black vs green splash. Red for spout is overkill IMO vs aggro. Aggro should be an excellent MU already. Green gives grips, sylvan library (maybe goyfs), black has dark tutelage, perish (no-pro, zoo, bant). I think Sylvan library -> dark tutelage vs landstill. Being able to E.tutor turn one into turn 2 sylvan and dig 6 cards in the following 2 turns is huge! This has to be tested IMO. Will update on results. Grips VS deed (assuming he passes priority or doesn't have enough mana to pop) is good. the issue is Jace. However I think leading with a sylvan library and drawing a lot of counterspells is the best bet. Sylvan IMO maybe even good enough MD. It's a 2cc for counterbalance, serves as top no 5 (although a pretty bad one) and a strong CA bomb vs slow control/ landstill (which is usually a bad matchup). It also has synergy with the life gain of thopters.

I disagree with 23 lands being the minimum. I'm comfortable with 21/22. I don't miss my 4th drop ever, and seldom miss my 5th drop.
Eesh. Use Enter to space separate thoughts out a bit more, otherwise it's a pain to follow it all.

I've tested Tezzeret, and it's completely fine. He does a lot of things that Jace doesn't do and tends to have a much smaller target on his head than Jace does. Surprisingly, a lot of people seem to forget that his ultimate makes your Thopters 5/5s, so they leave him alone way longer than they should. Costing five is rough, yeah, but you're a control deck, so your goal is to get to a point in the game where you can afford to play five mana spells (and even if you weren't, you can't kill by turn five even with a god hand).

I am suspicious of Library. For starters, it doesn't actually draw you cards. Well, I mean, it does, but you don't actually net any extra cards unless you pay life. It's also at the same CMC as Counterbalance and Thopter Foundry, which means EE will sweep it when set to two. In my experience, paying a mana to Top every turn doesn't set you that far back after about turn four or so.

Dark Tutelage seems fine. You have Top and E Tutor to mitigate the life loss, it actually nets you cards, requires more input from the control player to answer, and does less damage to you overall than Library. It won't help that much against Landstill, but it does help a little bit.

Don't forget that red gives you Blood Moon, which is infinitely better than Back to Basics. It also gives you both red Blasts, which kill Jace.

There's not very much cost to just running a single Trop in place of a basic Island to have access to Grips in the board. In most of the matchups where Wasteland could be an issue, Grip is actually not that hot, so you basically don't care - and you should be on 5-6 Islands anyway, so adding a Trop doesn't really mess up your mana that much in tempo matchups.

Personally, I think it's better to look at either black or red and just use green for access to Grip. Black gives you Perish while red gives Firespout; the former is better against blue midrange and the latter is better against Merfolk and Goblins, both of which can be problems for this deck because it's hard to live long enough to get Moat going (and Goblins can still kill you even if you have Moat thanks to SGC). Black gives Extirpate, while red has nothing, so you get points on Lands that way; on the other hand, Blood Moon shuts Lands down just as hard, so take your pick. Black gives you Dark Tutelage for control, while red gives Ajani Vengeant; the former is easier to answer but pays bigger dividends in the middle term, while the latter is hard to answer and does a lot more damage over the long term. Blood Moon also punishes control decks using 4+ colors, so that's something. Red gives you Blasts, while black has nothing.

Personally, I prefer red for the cards I listed, but you may prefer black because your higher Thopter Foundry count makes aggro less difficult in game one.

[The_Red_Panda]

Personally, I think it's better to look at either black or red and just use green for access to Grip. Black gives you Perish while red gives Firespout; the former is better against blue midrange and the latter is better against Merfolk and Goblins, both of which can be problems for this deck because it's hard to live long enough to get Moat going (and Goblins can still kill you even if you have Moat thanks to SGC)

Saying perish is good against blue midrange made me chuckle.

Ninja Edit: Chuckle because perish says green creatures and is good against blue decks, not because what you said is wrong. It obviously isn't.

Against goblins, at least from what I've seen, a resolved moat will win you the game. They can win via SGC, but the odds that they can both get SGC through, and have him power out enough damage to kill you before you find thopter-foundry and kill them seem slim.

[ivanpei]

I just re-read sylvan library (damn you FBB library!) and it says 4 life instead of 3, so yes it is very terrible. I will try the black splash with 1 trop for grip post board. 1 off Dark tutelage MD it is. REB vs Jace is actually something very important. That might actually be stronger than black vs Jacestill. Actually splashing for the green gives you 4 colours main for EE. I found not having the 4th colour painfully annoying when trying to tutor for something to kill Jace. However in that case I would already be 6 mana and 3 cards down (Jace brainstorm + enlightened tutor + 1 missed topdeck).

I'll have to eventually decide between black or red. Both colours seem solid at the moment. Black (dark tutelage, extirpate, perish) is good vs bant/zoo, lacking vs merfolk, dark tutelage 1 off maybe insufficient vs landstill's 4 jace. Red (blast, moon, spout) good against zoo/folk, beating against lands, REB killer vs jacestill. Looking at this comparison. Theoretically red looks better. Moon is also pretty GG vs landstill, shutting off their splash colours. This may be able to win games if timed correctly. But will try both out.

Edit:
Have tested goblins matchup extensively. Resolved moat= GG, very difficult for them to resolve one before you actually get thopter foundry out. However, lackey is the biggest problem. Without daze, the deck has just 8 outs to a lackey (4 stp, 4 force). Then its off to the races. I haven't won that race before yet, but sideboard path/spouts make this matchup pretty easy.

[Aggro_zombies]

You don't want Tutelage main. The card is not very good in most matchups, and actively bad in the aggro ones (takes too long to get you anywhere, risk of life loss, cmc 3 not relevant for Counterbalance, can't block, etc). It's fine as a sideboard card for control, which is the only place you want it.

You basically want to be two-color control in the main with the option to play up to four colors after boarding. Typically, that means your mana will be something along these lines:

8-9 fetches
2 Tundra
1 Dual A
1 Dual B
5-6 Island
1-2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

...with the option of adding a basic for your primary splash color against decks with Wasteland (usually a Mountain to keep Firespout live versus tribal). I guess you can Needle Wasteland too, but typically you want to Needle Vial against tribal, so whatever.

In game one, most of your splash color cards won't be very high-value. The sole exception is Firespout in the red splash, if only because there's a lot of aggro floating around right now. Otherwise, you're better off minimizing your bullets and just using E Tutor to assemble missing engine pieces, since you lose consistency when making a toolbox approach, and many of the cards you could get aren't that exciting in game one (and you don't want to draw most of them). Plus, a lot of the bullets people use are pretty marginal: Crypt's usefulness is super variable, ORing isn't that great unless you get rid of a planeswalker or Emrakul, Crucible is pretty weak, and so on.

[ivanpei]

My manabase:
5 islands
2 plains
8 fetch
2 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Trop
1 Academy ruins

I'm cutting the 22nd land (seat of the synod- never ever searched for this in 20+ games of testing) for something else. What about back to basics main? Pitches to force, wrecks landstill/lands + other control. However, considering how bad it is against zoo/folk/goblins, that might not be a fantastic idea.

I am on the same line of thought as you are regarding silver bullets. I favor streamlining as well.I play only 2 silver bullets (moat and EE). I'll try the 3rd counterspell in an attempt to up my 2cc count and to shore up the control/blue MU.

[Aggro_zombies]

Use Predict. Since you aren't using Ensnaring Bridge, having extra cards in hand is fine, and it helps filter chaff off the top of your library. Bumping the Counterspell count isn't really that great since you're often very busy with your mana in the early game, and in the mid and late-game you have Counterbalance, so Counterspell is actually very mediocre. It's also actively terrible against Zoo and other aggro decks since you have to leave mana up for it and a lot of the most dangerous things cost one or two, meaning you're probably spending more mana than the opponent on the exchange.

Predict isn't tremendously hot, but it's better than a third Counterspell by a mile.

[dorkogoyf]

You don't want Tutelage main. The card is not very good in most matchups, and actively bad in the aggro ones (takes too long to get you anywhere, risk of life loss, cmc 3 not relevant for Counterbalance, can't block, etc). It's fine as a sideboard card for control, which is the only place you want it.

You basically want to be two-color control in the main with the option to play up to four colors after boarding. Typically, that means your mana will be something along these lines:

8-9 fetches
2 Tundra
1 Dual A
1 Dual B
5-6 Island
1-2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

...with the option of adding a basic for your primary splash color against decks with Wasteland (usually a Mountain to keep Firespout live versus tribal). I guess you can Needle Wasteland too, but typically you want to Needle Vial against tribal, so whatever.

In game one, most of your splash color cards won't be very high-value. The sole exception is Firespout in the red splash, if only because there's a lot of aggro floating around right now. Otherwise, you're better off minimizing your bullets and just using E Tutor to assemble missing engine pieces, since you lose consistency when making a toolbox approach, and many of the cards you could get aren't that exciting in game one (and you don't want to draw most of them). Plus, a lot of the bullets people use are pretty marginal: Crypt's usefulness is super variable, ORing isn't that great unless you get rid of a planeswalker or Emrakul, Crucible is pretty weak, and so on.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. A few iterations of this deck I've seen locally and online are opting for a maindeck toolbox approach, which I feel slows the deck down a lot (drawing Tormod's Crypt against Fish or Gobs = eww). I'm swapping into 4 colors, and here is a short sideboard list...

1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity

So the 2 Path/2 Hydroblast/2 Pyroblast split effectively gives me 4 additional removal against Fish (2 Path/2 Pyro) and Goblins (2 Path/2 Hydro). I may opt into a Firespout plan against Vial decks, but I will try this setup first, as it is a little more flexible against non-Vial strategies.

Pyroblast also functions as a counter for Force of Will, Counterspell, Spell Snare, Thopter Foundry, Counterbalance. In other matchups, it hits Trygon Predator and Jace 2.0.

The Hydroblasts are there as a concession between Goblins and Belcher. Hitting their Seething Song or Desperate Ritual is a pretty sweet exchange, in my opinion.

The more I think about it, the more I realize Blood Moon is the superior option over Back to Basics. Blood Moon doesn't keep your duals tapped down (necessary as this deck is very mana hungry with the Thopters and 4cc costs), and although the fetching ability on the fetchlands is turned off, they can still tap for R.

Pithing Needle is a necessity if you want to beat Zoo in Game 1, IMO. It's randomly great against Vial decks, Mosswort Bridge, Belcher, Elspeth, and a variety of other decks in the format.

I really like Serenity against Prison-style decks (DragonStompy, Stax, Enchantress, etc).

[ivanpei]

Cannonist sb, is it really needed? I'm guessing if you really see too much combo, that would be good. @ Predict, seems gassy with top, balance, brainstorm. Would have been better when opponents played mystical tutor. Will try the singleton predict. Can be big LOLs against enlightened in the mirror or if someone taps their top. :)

[raharu]

Okay, I play a much different version of the deck (it's missing counterbalance because a friend has my tops right now), and it has a good bit of interesting ideas to it that I'll just bring into the conversation:

creatures: 7
Disciple of the Vault x4
Sower of Temptation x3

Instants: 15
Swords to Plowshares x4
Counterspell x4
Thirst for Knowledge x3
Force of Will x4

Sorceries: 3
Thoughtcast x3

Enchantments: 3
Oblivion Ring x3

Artifacts: 11
Cranial Plating x3
Sword of the Meek x3
Thopter Foundry x3
Serum Tank x2

Lands: 21

The Thirsts are really damn good, and the instant speed is huge. It's actually half the reason I like the deck, and it'll only get better with countertop in the list. I like having a 1/1 guys to fish out sword with, and spare artifacts to make a token and fish out the sword as well. Disciple is really just cute, but it does stuff I like (kills people without having to wait, speeds up the clock, plays sword-fish for me, lets me get stupid pluses with Thirst, ect) and I really wish there was another utility 1/1. I'm almost tempted to play Myr Retriver but this list is largely irrelevant, it's just a few key concepts in it. I used to play Shackles but I added artifact lands, but shackles, in a better version of the deck, is just crazy. I'm thinking a super heavy control build of this deck with shackles, Thirst, Sower, and probably Back to Basics, that doesn't have to worry about playing Humility or Moat and uses Shackles and Sower, and of course counterbalance, for retarded amounts of card advantage against aggro decks and chrushing plays against control (like Back to Basics, our supremely difficult to stop win condition, the stupidity that is Thirst for Knowledge).

[sauce]

Okay, I play a much different version of the deck (it's missing counterbalance because a friend has my tops right now).

Wrong. Thread.

[Anusien]

If you're running a fetch and basic heavy manabase like you should be, Back to Basics is far superior to Blood Moon. I only have something like 7 nonbasics that tap for mana (1 Trop 1 Volc 2-3 Tundra 2 Academy Ruins) but I have 8 fetches, 5-6 Island, 1-2 Plains, that I want to be able to tutor up and use for blue mana. With Back to Basics out, all my fetches tap for blue or white (because they get basics). With Blood Moon out, they tap for red.

[sauce]

If you're running a fetch and basic heavy manabase like you should be, Back to Basics is far superior to Blood Moon. I only have something like 7 nonbasics that tap for mana (1 Trop 1 Volc 2-3 Tundra 2 Academy Ruins) but I have 8 fetches, 5-6 Island, 1-2 Plains, that I want to be able to tutor up and use for blue mana. With Back to Basics out, all my fetches tap for blue or white (because they get basics). With Blood Moon out, they tap for red.

blood moon is much better than back to basics, it shuts off annoying lands opponents are playing completly.

[Aggro_zombies]

blood moon is much better than back to basics, it shuts off annoying lands opponents are playing completly.
Another strike against it is that some (even many) nonbasic-heavy decks can play around Back to Basics with fetchlands and the like, and in most cases you're not fast enough to punish them for slowing down to get rid of your B2B.

There are far fewer decks that can successfully play around Blood Moon, though.

[raharu]

Wrong. Thread.

The concepts, not the list itself. Thirst is a really strong card that lets you pull stupid three for ones with sword and get a new card for extra tops and extra foundries, and various other things in that list that I mentioned help the deck kill faster. Three is too many Platings, but one or two really helps you get them dead.

And on a side note, back to basics doesn't make fetches tap for blue, they just don't untap. The question is this: do you let them fetch a trop and K Grip your land hating enchantment, or do you loose your abiltiy to ruins once and fix your mana, if you still need to? Personally I like Back to Basics more and it's in my final list after IHM gives me my tops and Deltas, but it's really a personal choice. What do you want it to do, what matches do you want to keep it in for and help or fix? Agianst aggro I'd prefer Blood moon so I can Sweep easier and they can't grip me (which is where the grip question is more relevant), but really it's personal preference. I'd say they're about equal in terms of power.

[Aggro_zombies]

The relevant issue is that you're looking for an enchantment to help you out against Lands, control decks, and assorted other decks with greedy mana bases. Lands has Mox Diamond to fix colors no matter what you do, but the other decks don't, necessarily, so it comes down to their basics count and whether or not they can fetch for the Grip under Back to Basics. A lot of decks these days can do this, but there are fewer decks that can wriggle their way out of a Blood Moon: for example, Jacestill is usually screwed because they only have basic Islands and therefore can't Deed or EE away Blood Moon once it resolves.

[The_Red_Panda]

And on a side note, back to basics doesn't make fetches tap for blue, they just don't untap. The question is this: do you let them fetch a trop and K Grip your land hating enchantment, or do you loose your abiltiy to ruins once and fix your mana, if you still need to? Personally I like Back to Basics more and it's in my final list after IHM gives me my tops and Deltas, but it's really a personal choice. What do you want it to do, what matches do you want to keep it in for and help or fix? Agianst aggro I'd prefer Blood moon so I can Sweep easier and they can't grip me (which is where the grip question is more relevant), but really it's personal preference. I'd say they're about equal in terms of power.

Under back to basics, fetches tap to find islands, which then tap to add blue, which is something Anusien pointed out in his post. As far as the bloodmoon/b2b discussion goes, I'm on the moon side, as it feels a lot more devastating against decks with greedy manabases. While B2b often slows your opponent down for several turns, moon can actually lock them out of the game, giving you free wins against decks without the basics they need to kill blood moon. I'm not going to comment on your list, as I've never tested anything remotely resembling it, but playing creatures seems bad. You lose all of the virtual card advantage your opponent's swords were giving you.

Also, Serum Tank? Wtf?


In other news, I got about 15-20 games in yesterday at a local tournament, and ended up splitting first place.

My list:


1x Plateau
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins
1x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Plains

2x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Enlightened tutor
1x Moat
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek

Side:
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Spell Pierce
2x Aura of Silence
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


Some quick thoughts on the list:
Seat of the Synod sucks. I rarely have to Etutor for mana with 22 lands, and making one of my basics wasteable is bad. This is going back to an island. I want the 4th Tundra, possibly losing the Plateau. It came in handy in exactly one game, where I needed the second white source and still wanted to spout that turn. All-in-all though, the less lands I have that don't tap to make counterbalance on turn two, the better. 1x Arid Mesa --> 1x Scalding tarn. Just didn't have the 4th one at the time. Lavamancers were in the board for Merfolk and Goblins, which I didn't play against. Spell pierce in the board was surprisingly awesome. I played with Humility for a very long time, and I have to say, Moat is about three times as good. The difference is insane.

I don't remember a lot from my matches, but this is what basically happened:


Round 1: Dredge (LEDless)
G1: He kept a hand with lots of draw (study, breakthrough), and no dredgers. I have turn one plow your imp, turn two foundry, turn three sword, and he doesn't find a dredger fast enough.

G2: I make first turn top, he uses coliseum to careful study, pitching some dredgers. I make counterbalance on turn two, and he's stuck dredging only during his draw step. About three turns later I'm down about 10 from ichroid beats, and I stick Ensnaring bridge. He can't dredge anymore, because he's been playing cards into my counterbalance, and his hand size always stays below 7. A little while later foundry/sword show up and I win.

Round 2: UGR thresh with Counterbalance

G1: We fight over counterbalances early; he has the counterbalance, but can't flip at two to counter mine. I try for top, he flips at 1, he tries for top, I flip at one as well. We play the blind flip game for about three turns, during which I again make Ensnaring bridge to keep the goyfs and Cliques away. 20-something turns later, I kill him somehow. I really don't remember whether it was Jace or thopterfoundry, but it was boring and painful.

G2: He gets stuck on two lands, but has counterbalance. Early counterbalance fights result in me getting a few brainstorms countered, but I stick a top and plow a goyf. On turn 5 I stick Jace with mana up to spin my top, my opponent makes his third landdrop, grips my Counterbalance. I EoT enlightened tutor for another one, untap, Jace him to make sure he's not on 2, and then drop balance. Jace takes it from there.

Round 3: Dragon Stompy

G1: I force a chalice, plow some dudes, land Jace, and then start looking at the top card of his deck. Dstompy screws itself just about as hard as a deck can screw itself while still being viable, and when you stack jace on top of its naturally horrible topdecks, Stompy just rolls over.

G2: He makes turn 1 trini, and turn two chalice at 1. I can't use my EE to destroy chalice, because I cant pay three while not making any colored mana. The five one-cost cards in my hand do me no good, and a Mauler gets there.

G3: He makes a Powder Keg on turn one, which I let resolve. I make my second landdrop, and have Counterspell/Spell pierce up. Cspell takes a Trinisphere, Pierce nabs a chalice. At some point in the game, he plays Gathan face down and pitches his last card to unmorph. I make Jace, bounce. He has 4 mana, and draws mountain to recast. Top shows me a path, and gathan bites it. Jace then looks at his top card, and decided he doesn't need a Pit dragon. He rips land, and Jace does his thing for 5 more turns to get there.

Round 4: Scrubby mono-black aggro:

G1: I make Moat, he has no nighthawk/tombstalker/fliers, so he loses.

G2: I make thopter-foundry, counter a pestilence (O_o), and win the game shortly.

Round 5: Enchantress

We split, but play the two games.

G1: Enchantress is apparently a horrible matchup. He plays a bunch of enchantments that cost three, and all the sudden I can't target him or deal damage to him. I lose to words of war.

G2: I tutor for and cast both of my copies of Aura of silence, but he draws (I counted) 15 lands off of one enchantress effect. I fuck up by not playing a relic when I should have, which lets him replenish back about four horrible enchantments, which included Choke and an Aura of Silence of his own. Eventually the tokens off of a sigil get there.


Sort of a gross loss at the end, but still not a bad result. I like the deck lots, but I am honestly concerned about the enchantress matchup. Anyone have suggestions? Aura of silence probably would have been enough if he hadn't had 3/4 of his manabase on top of his deck, but it still doesn't feel like enough. Maybe one serenity in the board too?

[Anusien]

4 Harmonic Convergence is the best plan I know of if you have the slots. Plus CB or something as well.

[The_Red_Panda]

4 Harmonic Convergence is the best plan I know of if you have the slots. Plus CB or something as well.

It's not in my colors, and I'm not sure I'm willing to drop red. I might test it though :-/

[Dino]

Presence of the Master is pretty good against enchantress, and you can get it with your etutors. You just have to counter replenish, early aura of silence, and seal of cleansing/primordium. most of the time they use turn2/3 for playing enchantress effects too

[Aggro_zombies]

It's not in my colors, and I'm not sure I'm willing to drop red. I might test it though :-/
Harmonic Convergence is a super, super narrow answer, though. If you're not expecting tons of Enchantress, you're better off just running one or two Aura of Silence and trying to get that and Counterbalance going.

[pippo84]

Harmonic Convergence is a super, super narrow answer, though. If you're not expecting tons of Enchantress, you're better off just running one or two Aura of Silence and trying to get that and Counterbalance going.

Enchantress? Just stick a CB+Top in play and it's easy. Alos Aura of Silence is GG against them.

Btw I don't think Zoo is a terrible MU as most of you say, this deck is designed to beat aggro.

And I'm still playing Black and happy with it.

[sauce]

My list:

1x Plateau
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins
1x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Plains

2x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Enlightened tutor
1x Moat
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek

Side:
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Spell Pierce
2x Aura of Silence
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


I don't think I can agree w/ wanting more non basics instead of basics.

You only really need 2 Volcanics with that setup (its what I run) and I have:
5 Island
2 Plains
9 Fetchlands
2 Tundra
2 Volcanics
1 Seat <-- it's good because you can always sacrifice it to make a thopter if you're dying and don't have a sword but need an extra turn.
1 Academy

The reason you're gravitating towards that manabase I think is you have not played vs Wasteland decks lately.
In your report you said you dodged Merfolk/Goblins. A wasteland in the early turns can cost you the game vs them.
Because you basically need to get to 4 mana asap vs them to land moat, when you hiccup (thanks to Wastelands) it can cost you a lot of life.

Anyways, in my testing for the last 2 weeks, I started always fetching for basics.
The deck does not need the non basics besides for Firespout or the occasional weird fetchland hand + Turn 2 Counterbalance where you have to get them.

Also, I don't like Grim lavamancer in the SB, he seems slow and mana intensive and requires you to put stuff in the yard.
He nowhere as good as he is in Zoo if you think about what you're trying to do.

[Anusien]

I've played against Enchantress a lot and narrowly beat a lot of bad players. If they're any good, it would be hard. If you can hold a Force of Will for Replenish and use Krosan Grips that you're already boarding Karmic Justice, mass removal will do it. I find that unlikely. The most hilarious board plan would be to run Opalescence to go with Humility so they wouldn't get the effects of any of their snazzy enchantments. That plan is pretty awful, in all likelihood, but it makes me laugh. The biggest problem is you want to play Opalescence first.

Otherwise, Serenity and Disk are decent options. You run a serious risk of getting blown out by Karmic Justice or Replenish though. Make sure however you board, it can contain Argothian Enchantress. I usually bring in Firespout just for it.

[The_Red_Panda]

I don't think I can agree w/ wanting more non basics instead of basics.

You only really need 2 Volcanics with that setup (its what I run) and I have:
5 Island
2 Plains
9 Fetchlands
2 Tundra
2 Volcanics
1 Seat <-- it's good because you can always sacrifice it to make a thopter if you're dying and don't have a sword but need an extra turn.
1 Academy

The reason you're gravitating towards that manabase I think is you have not played vs Wasteland decks lately.
In your report you said you dodged Merfolk/Goblins. A wasteland in the early turns can cost you the game vs them.
Because you basically need to get to 4 mana asap vs them to land moat, when you hiccup (thanks to Wastelands) it can cost you a lot of life.

Also, I don't like Grim lavamancer in the SB, he seems slow and mana intensive and requires you to put stuff in the yard.
He nowhere as good as he is in Zoo if you think about what you're trying to do.

My manabase isn't actually that far from yours. What I wanted my final manabase to look like was:

5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volc
8 Fetch
1 Ruins

We would have the same basic count as each other, but I would have 1 less fetch for one more dual, and I still want to drop the seat for another tundra. I just can't see where making one thopter with a foundry by killing my lands in a narrow subset of situations is going to be more relevant on the whole than producing white mana. Originally I had thought that the need to enlightened tutor for a mana source would trump making one of my islands wasteable, but in retrospect, it rarely comes up. I also don't really think I'm less wasteland immune than you. We've got the same number of basics, and I'm only one fetch down.

In my games against merfolk, I've noticed the exact same trend. Sticking moat/ensnaring bridge means you win the game, not getting them means you lose. I just don't see my manabase being less resilient, I guess. I've got a friend who's played folk religiously for a while now though, so I'll have to do more testing with him.

As for grim lavamancer, in the few post-board games I've had against merfolk, he's been an absolute house. This deck is fully capable of dumping brainstorms, swords, fetches, forces, counterspells, paths, and enlightened tutors into the graveyard. Against merfolk, I don't usually hold back cards conservatively; instead I rush for one of the two lock pieces and spend quite a few cards doing it. It's not unreasonable at all for lavamancer to activate on turn two, and against merfolk he's nearly guaranteed to kill whatever you point him at, buying precious time to find a lock piece and stick it.


Enchantress? Just stick a CB+Top in play and it's easy. Alos Aura of Silence is GG against them.


This seems entirely false to me. I've got about 10-15 games in against enchantress with this list, and 4-5 games in playing enchantress against UWB landstill with CB/top (a similar list), and I can tell you that CB absolutely does not seal the game against enchantress. A large quantity of the threatening cards from their list cost three or four mana, and most thopter lists have approx. 3 cards in the maindeck that can flip at three, and 2 cards that flip at four. Most of the 1 or two manacost cards that enchantress wants to play in this matchup(sprawl, growth, exploration, argothian) come down on turns one or two, before CB is capable of countering them. From there, enchantress really wants to play 3 cost spells against us. Choke, Justice, Presence, WoW, Aura of Silence, etc. Aura of silence is also a good stall vs. enchantress, but not nearly capable of winning the game on its own. In the second game I played against enchantress, I stuck an aura on turn three, followed by a second one on turn four. It slowed him down for about 3 turns, but this deck isn't aggressive enough to turn those three turns into a victory in such short order. It takes some time to set up jace, or thopterfoundry, and in that time enchantress is perfectly capable of slow-rolling into a confinement, choke, etc, to steal back that tempo that it lost.

It is worth noting, that the fellow I'm playing enchantress against has been playing the deck for something like two years now. He's fine-tuned a list that he likes, and he's a pretty strong player. That could be some of the discrepancy, but I can't imagine mainstream lists vary from his by more than four cards in the maindeck. When I built the deck, our lists had a total difference of 5 cards maindeck, which amounted to spirit guides on my part vs forests on his, and two utility cards swapped from main to board.

Presence of the Master, however, seems like a solid beating against enchantress, and might actually flat-out win games if it resolves. The only problem then becomes replenish, but with four forces, three counterspells, three spell pierces, and a relic postboard, it could very well be do-able.

[pippo84]

My manabase isn't actually that far from yours. What I wanted my final manabase to look like was:

5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volc
8 Fetch
1 Ruins

We would have the same basic count as each other, but I would have 1 less fetch for one more dual, and I still want to drop the seat for another tundra. I just can't see where making one thopter with a foundry by killing my lands in a narrow subset of situations is going to be more relevant on the whole than producing white mana. Originally I had thought that the need to enlightened tutor for a mana source would trump making one of my islands wasteable, but in retrospect, it rarely comes up. I also don't really think I'm less wasteland immune than you. We've got the same number of basics, and I'm only one fetch down.

In my games against merfolk, I've noticed the exact same trend. Sticking moat/ensnaring bridge means you win the game, not getting them means you lose. I just don't see my manabase being less resilient, I guess. I've got a friend who's played folk religiously for a while now though, so I'll have to do more testing with him.

As for grim lavamancer, in the few post-board games I've had against merfolk, he's been an absolute house. This deck is fully capable of dumping brainstorms, swords, fetches, forces, counterspells, paths, and enlightened tutors into the graveyard. Against merfolk, I don't usually hold back cards conservatively; instead I rush for one of the two lock pieces and spend quite a few cards doing it. It's not unreasonable at all for lavamancer to activate on turn two, and against merfolk he's nearly guaranteed to kill whatever you point him at, buying precious time to find a lock piece and stick it.



This seems entirely false to me. I've got about 10-15 games in against enchantress with this list, and 4-5 games in playing enchantress against UWB landstill with CB/top (a similar list), and I can tell you that CB absolutely does not seal the game against enchantress. A large quantity of the threatening cards from their list cost three or four mana, and most thopter lists have approx. 3 cards in the maindeck that can flip at three, and 2 cards that flip at four. Most of the 1 or two manacost cards that enchantress wants to play in this matchup(sprawl, growth, exploration, argothian) come down on turns one or two, before CB is capable of countering them. From there, enchantress really wants to play 3 cost spells against us. Choke, Justice, Presence, WoW, Aura of Silence, etc. Aura of silence is also a good stall vs. enchantress, but not nearly capable of winning the game on its own. In the second game I played against enchantress, I stuck an aura on turn three, followed by a second one on turn four. It slowed him down for about 3 turns, but this deck isn't aggressive enough to turn those three turns into a victory in such short order. It takes some time to set up jace, or thopterfoundry, and in that time enchantress is perfectly capable of slow-rolling into a confinement, choke, etc, to steal back that tempo that it lost.

It is worth noting, that the fellow I'm playing enchantress against has been playing the deck for something like two years now. He's fine-tuned a list that he likes, and he's a pretty strong player. That could be some of the discrepancy, but I can't imagine mainstream lists vary from his by more than four cards in the maindeck. When I built the deck, our lists had a total difference of 5 cards maindeck, which amounted to spirit guides on my part vs forests on his, and two utility cards swapped from main to board.

Presence of the Master, however, seems like a solid beating against enchantress, and might actually flat-out win games if it resolves. The only problem then becomes replenish, but with four forces, three counterspells, three spell pierces, and a relic postboard, it could very well be do-able.

Wow, it's just so difficult to tutor a 3 CC drop and float it on top. Against Enchantress you just have to know what to let pass and what to counter. Obviously you can't counter everithing, but usually they play 2 Replenish pre-board and 3 post-board. And they are must counter. And they usually just play 3 win conditions. Those are also a must counter. The rest can pass.. Well, it's also nice to counter Argothian etc if you can but it's not the real priority. Anyways if you know what and how Enchantress plays it's an easy MU, if you don't just lose.

[DFY889]

Concering the Back to Basics versus Blood Moon debate, has anyone considered Tsabo's Web. It doesn't randomly hose people who just happen to have nonbasics, but if you have a clear board or a moat or whatever against zoo by the time you can drop back to basics, you're probably pretty set. Web is easier to cast against lands as it's a full mana cheaper which is relevant for port disruption and if you're off a color because of wasteland web is easier. It also draws a card and may be a little more relevant for counterbalance. There may be some matchups I'm neglecting to think of, but I would mostly think such a card would be primarily for lands with some niche matchups against other decks. It does shut off academy which is a little annoying, but so do back to basics and blood moon.

[frogboy]

Another strike against it is that some (even many) nonbasic-heavy decks can play around Back to Basics with fetchlands and the like, and in most cases you're not fast enough to punish them for slowing down to get rid of your B2B.

There are far fewer decks that can successfully play around Blood Moon, though.

It's worth noting that Lands is probably capable of operating at reasonable efficiency through a Blood Moon if they fetch up their basic and draw Mox Diamond.

[sauce]

It's worth noting that Lands is probably capable of operating at reasonable efficiency through a Blood Moon if they fetch up their basic and draw Mox Diamond.

Yeah but what can they really do, they cannot do anything without their lands being special.
They have to draw K-grip...

[rogue.nine]

What do people think of A.J.'s Porphyry Notes tech , presumably as a fetchable early roadblock to agro

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

Bottom of article

[Anusien]

I've had one in lists posted in this thread for a while. It's fine but not amazing. You play it and pretty much hope to get a guy or two. You don't want to E-Tutor for it unless you can't survive to Moat time. It's very nice in that it deals with Inkwell Leviathan and Emrakul and Wild Nacatl.

[The_Red_Panda]

Wow, it's just so difficult to tutor a 3 CC drop and float it on top. Against Enchantress you just have to know what to let pass and what to counter. Obviously you can't counter everithing, but usually they play 2 Replenish pre-board and 3 post-board. And they are must counter. And they usually just play 3 win conditions. Those are also a must counter.

Then there's also seal of primordium/cleansing, which can destroy CB to let their spells through, or an early aura of silence of their own, which also stops a counterbalance, and the fact that you have to draw balance, draw top, and then tutor for a 3 cost, meaning you're relying on seeing three separate cards in order to start being able to reliably lock down an enchantress player, whereas they're accelerating as hard as they can, and any one of the cards listed, or an early copy of a win condition will mean a game loss before you're able to set up enough to lock them out. Counterbalance and Top don't magically float into your hand next to an enlightened tutor to find that three-drop, you actually have to dig for them some times, and while you're looking enchantress isn't going to sit on it's thumbs.


Anyways if you know what and how Enchantress plays it's an easy MU, if you don't just lose.

I've built enchantress, as I said in my previous post. It's got quite the game against decks such as this one, if the enchantress pilot knows to be aggressive and drop win conditions/lock pieces early, before more controlling decks get set up.

But whatever. This argument probably wont go anywhere. I'm going to test more games against enchantress, and you can do the same if you feel the urge.

[lordofthepit]

What do people think of A.J.'s Porphyry Notes tech , presumably as a fetchable early roadblock to agro

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

Bottom of article

I think it's a card with more synergy with Humility than Moat.

If I were playing Moat maindeck, I'd also run an Ensnaring Bridge to fill the 3-drop slot and to take care of big fliers. If I were playing Humility maindeck, I would run Porphyry Nodes to force my opponent to "extend" into the Abyss. Bridge obviously has poor synergy with Humility, because it would require you to keep your hand empty; Porphyry Nodes has poor synergy with Moat because sometimes the only creatures you can hit are non-fliers (and sometimes it takes out your Thopter tokens), whereas under Humility you can always choose with creatures to hit.

[pippo84]

What do people think of A.J.'s Porphyry Notes tech , presumably as a fetchable early roadblock to agro

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

Bottom of article

Also I would like to try it. Seems a fine slot to add. Probably you don't really want to tutor for it unless really necessary. Will try it for sure because it may have potential.

@The_Red_Panda: I have a lot of experience playing against Enchantress and that's my testing experience. Anyways I think we have more important topics to discuss..

Btw I totaly agree with lordofthepit's post. :cool:

[JonBarber]

I played this at a 70 man tournament last weekend and faced lands round 3. Game 2 I dropped blood moon thinking it was gg. He untaps and drops Meloku (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=meloku%20the%20clouded%20mirror) off his mox diamond. And because he had mana bond in play, he could essentially make as many dudes as he had lands a turn. Needless to say, I couldn't find an EE in time and lost. This option for lands allows them to dodge both blood moon and back to basics. Don't rush to board your swords out, and be ready for her.

[ivanpei]

Wow meloku sounds like some pretty savage tech. I guess saving the force for it might be better If you have access to a tutor-> blood moon. Usually the force targets are exploration/ intuition or manabond. Am I missing anything?

Did some testing today with 2 predict, 2 counterspell, 2 spell snare split. It played out quite smoothly. The predicts cycle extra tops and work well with top, brainstorm, even a blind balance. Ive never been forced to use them without the setup and setups are plentiful, easy and natural in this deck. I don't mention jace because if you stick him and are brainstorming with him, you should be winning already.

Tested against countertop progenitus today. Had no problems beating it, I played against the Trygon predator lists. The thopter combo is pretty irrelevant in this mu but was never flooded with components even with the 3/2 thopter sword split. We have so many ways to get balance and top that it simply is too difficult for them. Having more counterspells and gas is pretty good too. Natural order is seldom a problem, moat fixes that. I am really liking this deck. It really shouldn't be so easy to beat countertop progenitus.

Edit: Anyone played this in Columbus? I would really appreciate a write up on thoughts, silver bullet choices etc etc. I just realised painfully that I don't run a 3cc in my list. I sorely missed it when setting up the countertop lock against jacestill/bant progenitus. I don't like being blowned out by deed/predator just because I can't make space for 1 slot change in the MD. O-ring/ensnaring bridge are my options. I wreck aggro already with my 3/2 thopter sword split so I'm leaning on o-ring. I will take out the 2 predicts I've been testing for an O-ring and the 3rd spell snare. Snare has been wonderfully useful in so many matchups. Drawing a component has been annoying in the blue match up so if my meta becomes more developed (ie more countertop/ any blue control), I'll take out 1 thopter and 1 sword for 2 predicts. They have been tested to be pretty gassy and fits the curve better than jace 3 and 4. Cheers.

[damnthedoodle]

Here's my GP Columbus decklist:

Artifacts: 11
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 6
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring

Instants: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace the Mindsculptor

Lands: 22
1 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Wasteland
1 Plains
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
1 Toprical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Take Possession
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Meddling Mage

Round 1 vs Mono White Control (I'm pretty sure my opponent's deck is on this site somewhere, I remember reading about it prior to the GP)
I win 2-0. Game 1 he used 2 oblivion rings to take out my key cards (Thopter Foundry and Counterbalance). I find E.E. and set to 3....he's done. Game 2 I leave in Swords to Plowshares because I really didn't have much to bring in vs him...He plays Turn 1 Grindstone, turn 2 Painter's servant, turn three activates grindstone --> I have the swords though. Counterbalance lands and I jace him out.

Round 2: Zoo
Game 1 he mulls to 6. I get moat down with countertop online, he didn't start with a 1 drop. Game stalls for a while until thopter foundry takes it home.
Game 2 he mulls to 6 again. I get moat down, but he has the pridemage. I get ensnaring bridge down. We stall for a while, until I get recurring wastelands. His board is loaded with goyfs that can't attack, but I got rid of his green sources before he found a K grip and he scoops in frustration.

Round 3: Goblins.
Game 1 I land a moat and Win.
Game 2 I keep a terrible hand and get stuck on two land.
Game 3 I keep a sketchy hand. He gets a good start, gets me down to about 11 and I drop ensnaring Bridge, but I have 1 card in hand, which lets him attack with piledriver and his smallest gobbos. He forgets piledriver has pro blue and doesn't swing into my meddling mage. I almost win because of this mistake, but then he draws a gempalm and burns my mage. His buddies call him out on his misplay after he beats me, and he was happy it didn't cost him the match. I misplayed hard - I tutored up my CoP: red during my upkeep but couldn't play it because I had only 1 white source (I had ensnaring bridge in play) So I punted that game.

Round 4: Zoo.
Game 1 zoo does it's thing and crushes me.
Game 2 I stabilize at two life with thopter foundry, CoP: Red, Divining Top, academy ruins, and a lot of land. He already blew up my moat and my humility. I am making 1 token per turn and drawing off of the top each turn, then putting the top on top of my library. He calls me out for drawing a card before actually sacrificing my divining top (even though I tapped mana for the activation of the thopter foundry) so I lose. I probably would have lost either way, but still, some people are jerks.

Round 5: Landstill
Game 1 he drops mishras and standstill. He beats me up bad.
In: 2 Red blasts; 1 Blood moon. I don't recall what I pulled though.
Game 2: We control back and forth until he drops a standstill with no factory down. We both draw up to 7 (He had to discard a few times). I brainstorm and break the standstill at his EOT, he drops 4 cards into his GY. He only has 5 land to my 7, and i have 2 counterspell plus FoW backup, so I try to drop my counterbalance and get it down after a long counterwar involving 3 Forces, but now his hand is almost empty already and I have counterbalance in play. He plays a Pernicious Deed, so I tutor up Blood moon in response; he is sad. He extirpates something so i don't get the blood moon. I end up getting a Top though...so I'm cool with that. More control stuff happens which takes forever...I finally land my blood moon and Red elemental blast his Jace before it comes into play. I have 2 thopters because he extirpates my sword of the meek, but they go the distance.
1 Minute until match time is called: I am fairly new to tournament magic and don't know any of the tournament rules. Like don't offer your opponent to roll 2xD6 to determine the winner of the match. My opponent didn't call me out on it because he is a nice guy, but a judge was watching the game for the past 20 minutes (it was an interesting match :P) and tells us to just wait...He gets the head judge over who informs me that I'm DQ'd from the entire event. I offered to do this because we were both at 2-2 and we needed a 7-2 record to make day 2....Moral of the story: Don't offer to randomize the win.

I did run a 61 card deck because I really wanted to make room for that singleton wasteland, which actually won me a game. I figured the extra land can't hurt in this deck anyways, it's really mana hungry.

Overall I had a blast, and after I got DQ'd we went out and got all sorts of drunk and had even more fun. I can't wait for another legacy GP, hopefully I don't punt my goblins match....

Anyways, feel free to give me pointers on my deck, what do you like or not like? The singleton Take Possession is for Jace matchups, I usually have seven mana right before Jace goes ultimate, and there is no way they see it coming.

I think I would try to squeeze Firespouts into my board if I played again, or maybe perish over the green splash...either perish or firespout should be in there somewhere though.

[ivanpei]

Bad luck! Oh well, with more experience comes more success! All the best in your next try. My initial thought was: Too many silver bullets, by a mile. I'm only running 1 moat, 1 EE, 1 oring and those are all pretty good to draw. The same for your manabase, tolaria westing into stuff is a bit slow (hence why we don't play muddle the mixture). These may have led to your losses vs zoo and goblins, which are generally good MUs. You also need the spouts in the board. Against zoo, moat slows them till they get a grip. Then they grip your moat through your counterbalance lock and blow you out. Permanent solutions are better vs zoo, like spouting the board and going straight for thopter foundry combo (i prefer this strategy as opposed to counterbalance lock). My 2 cents. Cheers.

[damnthedoodle]

Is zoo really that good of a Matchup?? This is one of the few matches I actually tested a lot against, and I never got better than 50% (I was testing vs fast zoo, with step lynx and no jittes)

Game 1 they have 4 Pridemages, and even if they don't land one of those, step lynx is a beast, so is nacatl...Then Game two they have red blasts and grips for our thopter foundries.

If they hit a good 1 drop, and a good 2 drop, I find it very hard to win. I will be testing AJ Sacher's tech to see if that helps any, the second from the board seems good if you just draw into it.

Is it just me or does this deck need more land?? I miss my fourth land drop quite a bit, and I don't like that (Even with Top in play)

[damnthedoodle]

I agree that tolaria west is too slow - I wanted it because I tested a lot vs Emrakul Decks, and I was afraid lol. I wanted it to find my Karakas. I would have probably been ok with just a spellbomb in the board though.

The west was handy to tutor up academy ruins in the control mirror though.

[ivanpei]

Preboard, nope never have any difficulty beating zoo, they may get the nuts draw sometimes or I don't find an early sword. But outside of that, a force on pridemage and moat is usually GG. I just play around price of progress and then assemble countertop combo for the lockout. My list plays 3/2 thopter sword split so that may have been the reason why. I can assemble the combo quickly too when in a bind. Saving the snare/force for pridemage in that case is also the correct play. I don't play much silver bullets so my draws are pretty smooth without much clunkiness. I play 21 lands, tried 22, then cut down to 21 again. Depends on your play preference. Post board, grip is harsh, thats why I stressed on the importance or firespout as a permanent solution. The deck has to shift to a more control oriented approach with removal and not depend as heavily on enchantments due to grip. IMO my play style postboard is: Deal with early threats with spout/swords/threads (I play 1 Threads of disloyalty in the board). Then race to assemble thopter sword. Make a bunch of tokens, win. Once you assemble thopter sword, they have to find grip FAST or you make so many tokens that you don't care if they draw grip later on. I can't say the same for moat/countertop lock, because they can still eot grip, kill you. Tokens don't go away with a grip.

[Tammit67]

So did we get hated out at the GP thanks to everyone packing grips and spell pierce, or will this deck be underpowered in the current (perceived) meta? Something like 2 pilots made it to day two IIRC. Perhaps we took some residual hate against aluren, hell even an active E. Plague can slow us down enough. Everyone's thoughts on the results of the GP with regards to the future of this archetype?

[DFY889]

Wizards' metagame breakdown is a little weird. For example with the decks "Bant", "Countertop", "Aggro Countertop", and "Enlightened Tutor", they specify that "Bant" includes New Horizons and Natural Order variants. So where would Countertop Goyf fit it? Is it Bant? It is certainly in bant colors and plays natural order. It is also definitely a countertop deck, but is also probably the most aggro countertop deck of the major archetypes, so who knows which deck type it is classified as. I wouldn't be surprised if Countertop Thopter was classified under "Countertop" decks rather than "Enlightened Tutor" decks.

[damnthedoodle]

So did we get hated out at the GP thanks to everyone packing grips and spell pierce, or will this deck be underpowered in the current (perceived) meta? Something like 2 pilots made it to day two IIRC. Perhaps we took some residual hate against aluren, hell even an active E. Plague can slow us down enough. Everyone's thoughts on the results of the GP with regards to the future of this archetype?

I don't think this deck will go away - It can be customized to beat just about anything and do well in any meta. I'm pretty sure more than 2 pilots made day 2 also, like the poster above me was explaining.

[GexxX]

I have tested the deck for some time and I feel like black is the weakest color in there. It really only helps in the Sideboard with EPlague and Perish.
The lack of Mass Removal also seems quite bad right now. (I think Merfolk and Goblins have increased in number)

Maybe Red is a substitute packing Ajani Vengeant and another way to deal with Problematic Threads until you find Swords or it just burns the Piledriver PLUS the Ultimate in it is also very good. The Next Auto-in is Firespout. I really love this card for having CC3 with Counterbalance and being almost a Wrath of god most times.

For the Sideboard ReB, Pyroblast & Lavamancers should make it.

What do you guys think about it? I haven't had time to test it, but maybe someone else has and can post some results.

Thanks in advance for contributing.

[pippo84]

I have tested the deck for some time and I feel like black is the weakest color in there. It really only helps in the Sideboard with EPlague and Perish.
The lack of Mass Removal also seems quite bad right now. (I think Merfolk and Goblins have increased in number)

Maybe Red is a substitute packing Ajani Vengeant and another way to deal with Problematic Threads until you find Swords or it just burns the Piledriver PLUS the Ultimate in it is also very good. The Next Auto-in is Firespout. I really love this card for having CC3 with Counterbalance and being almost a Wrath of god most times.

For the Sideboard ReB, Pyroblast & Lavamancers should make it.

What do you guys think about it? I haven't had time to test it, but maybe someone else has and can post some results.

Thanks in advance for contributing.

From my testings Firespout isn't good enought against New Horizons and ProBant, but it's great as usual against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. Perish instead is great against New Horizons, ProBant and Zoo. Engineered Plague is great against Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge.

Reb is always a nice card to have if you splash red, but wouldn't include him in this deck. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but I'm not sure he fits this deck..

Has anyone thought of Wrath of God? Too slow?

[obituary 95]

From my testings Firespout isn't good enought against New Horizons and ProBant, but it's great as usual against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. Perish instead is great against New Horizons, ProBant and Zoo. Engineered Plague is great against Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge.

Reb is always a nice card to have if you splash red, but wouldn't include him in this deck. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but I'm not sure he fits this deck..

Has anyone thought of Wrath of God? Too slow?

wog is to slow, i have tried it . plus if you play it then you can not play jace since it screws up your curve for counterbalence

[DFY889]

You've had good results with e plague against merfolk? It kills unlorded cursecatcher and silvergill, but nothing else. I guess it saves a little damage and gives you a turn on your clock, but seems like it wouldn't be enough. In my experience, goblins in one of the best matchups as they have very few outs to moat or even countertop without an aether vial provided you plow or otherwise deal with their guys. Zoo is closer, but still fairly favorable, and can depend on the amount of hate they have. Merfolk I find is one of our worst matchups between cursecatcher, daze, and maindeck spell piece (since Saito's list is becoming fairly standard); the classic aggro control package seems to get there. Maybe I just need to play the matchup more and tighten up gameplay, but it certainly not an easy ride. I'm considering moving up to two or three maindeck EEs to help the matchup.

I don't think Ajani Vengeant is the way to go. He's slow, expensive, and is not tutorable. Against aggro the situations where he is better than moat seem very few and far between, and against control Jace seems to be better in almost any situation since 5 brainstorms is gg just about as much as a one-sided Armageddon.

[pippo84]

You've had good results with e plague against merfolk? It kills unlorded cursecatcher and silvergill, but nothing else. I guess it saves a little damage and gives you a turn on your clock, but seems like it wouldn't be enough. In my experience, goblins in one of the best matchups as they have very few outs to moat or even countertop without an aether vial provided you plow or otherwise deal with their guys. Zoo is closer, but still fairly favorable, and can depend on the amount of hate they have. Merfolk I find is one of our worst matchups between cursecatcher, daze, and maindeck spell piece (since Saito's list is becoming fairly standard); the classic aggro control package seems to get there. Maybe I just need to play the matchup more and tighten up gameplay, but it certainly not an easy ride. I'm considering moving up to two or three maindeck EEs to help the matchup.

I don't think Ajani Vengeant is the way to go. He's slow, expensive, and is not tutorable. Against aggro the situations where he is better than moat seem very few and far between, and against control Jace seems to be better in almost any situation since 5 brainstorms is gg just about as much as a one-sided Armageddon.

In my testing Moat and Engineered Plague are enought to stop Merfolk. It's not an impossible MU,probably around 50/50 pre and post board.

Ajani Vengeant seems good, but also I don't think it's the direction to take. Playing more Jace 2.0 seems just better (I actually play 3).

I was also thinking of adding some EE. They are good against aggro and also against CB. Pre board if an opponent lands a CB we don't have many ways to get rid of it..

[Verystrait42]

So is there really a superior choice between Moat and Humility for the Mainboard slot? I've been running both lately, not going terribly, but not sure if it would be possible to cut it between one of the two.

[nodahero]

Personally I feel Moat is a stronger inclusion overall.

In reality it is a question of risk vs reward. Moat has the most reward but in turn also suffers from the most risk. A single pridemage or Predator can cause certain death. A humility prevents those scenarios but allows for you to get eaten alive by midgets.

[DFY889]

In my testing Moat and Engineered Plague are enought to stop Merfolk. It's not an impossible MU,probably around 50/50 pre and post board.

Ajani Vengeant seems good, but also I don't think it's the direction to take. Playing more Jace 2.0 seems just better (I actually play 3).

I was also thinking of adding some EE. They are good against aggro and also against CB. Pre board if an opponent lands a CB we don't have many ways to get rid of it..

Yeah Moat is very good against merfolk, but I don't think engineered plauge is since it kills very few of their guys and most of the time there will be a lord out.

[ivanpei]

I realised I've been testing too much preboard and not enough postboard. Krosan grip IMO is a serious serious problem. I have black/green splash gobbos, zoo with grips, and bant with grips post. Man was that very difficult. Preboard I've always felt that this deck was godlike, having the silver bullets for most situations and setting up wins that were immune to STP. However after more postboard testing, I've felt that this deck is a bit fragile and cold to grip. The situation usually unfolds like this: I nuke a couple of cards with counters/removal. He drops more threats, I tutor up a hoser/ either combo. He grips at the worst possible time, and I can't do a damn thing about it even though I've stocked up plenty of counters. I lose to the previously locked up dudes (due to moat) or to a flood of drops (due to gripped balance) and I can't recover. I think that we really need 4 mages in the board to name grip. STP/ removal are most likely coming out, so I believe that is a pretty important play. Thoughts?

[dorkogoyf]

Meddling Mage seems fine. Vendilion Clique seems like a good card to board in too...and strong in the control mirror. It fits the curve pretty well as you can pre-emptively get their Grip out of hand before you play whatever you don't want him to Grip.

Clique + Karakas is a pretty neat interaction, as you can recycle the Clique's effect.

[dtrooper]

I picked this deck up when it first appeared in a SCG event. Last time I played it, managed to top3 a Magic-League trial. Not a strong feat, but still something to take into consideration.

The list was the following:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36773

Since then, I picked up Ubgw Landstill but eventually made up my mind about what Control shell I wanted to play. CounterTop Thopter is much more reliable and, surprisingly enough, can threaten to actually end the game quite fast after locking it, something Ubgw has trouble with.

I drew some conclusions after extensive testing against the top Grand-Prix decks, as well as the other Aggro matchups - namely Zoo and Goblins - and there are a few topics I'd like to address.

MOAT VS HUMILITY
Moat is better against Goblins, Humility is better against Zoo and Merfolk. Coralhelm Commander is still a card and gets around Moat pretty well, since basically you play the 4cc card against Merfolk only when you're in a pinch and wasted your spot-removal, and the Merfolk player will protect it at all costs if you're playing against a competent opponent. Goblins has absolutely no way of dealing with Moat except with a Green splash or Anarchy, while Zoo has the troublesome Qasali Pridemage which gets "answered" pretty swiftly with Humility instead of Moat. However, it is important to remind yourself that sticking either one in the battlefield isn't game over for your opponent. That's why I chose to bring two Firespout to the maindeck. Suddenly the aggro matchup goes from close to heavily in your favor, and considering you're -probably- playing Humility over Moat, it takes away the possibility of your opponent overruning you with 1/1s. Humility also has the offchance of nullifying Emrakul and Iona, something Moat lacks, and that's sometimes relevant.
One last thing I'd like to address in this discussion is the UG Madness deck gaining popularity. The tutorable Wonder makes Moat a joke against the deck, which is more of a reason to play Humility.
I don't see myself playing both enchantments as I already have two Jaces filling the 4-drop slot, and none of the two pitch to Force of Will.

POST-SIDEBOARD HATE
If you check the above list, you will see I chose to play with a playset of Tarmogoyf in the Sideboard. They were probably the best cards in my 75, but I would never maindeck them. There's too many creature hate maindecked these days and it is taken out when your opponent is faced against a deck with zero creatures, instead opting for artifact removal, which is stellar against CounterTop Thopter. An unanswered Tarmogoyf ends games very quickly, while all your opponent can do is kill your irrelevant artifacts, which grows Tarmogoyf even more. Plus, people are packing tons of Counterbalance hate Sideboard these days, and I've noticed your opponents tend to dillute their post-sideboard 60 with more hate instead of more pressure - making Tarmogoyf even more powerful. It also does something this deck lacks against combo - a fast clock. Sticking to this mindset, I have opted to, in addition to Tarmogoyfs, make room for two Meddling Mage and one Vendilion Clique in the sideboard (and still playing Ethersworn Canonist). Ever since, I haven't lost a single sideboarded match against combo.

MERFOLK
Merfolk is admittedly the matchup you will least like to face, but it isn't that bad. Make sure you drop a Pithing Needle on AEther Vial which makes them have to play a fair game with an actual fair curve - that's crucial. I have added a second Pithing Needle to the Sideboard over the Ancient Grudge (I was playing Ancient Grudge for the double purpose of killing AEther Vials and hurting Stax, but AEther vial is much more present) so I don't have to waste a Tutor on it every time. The matchup has proven to be close to fifty percent in testing which isn't a bad result at all, but makes me fear if Merfolk starts gaining popularity again - and it will; it won the Grand Prix, after all. A number of Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, maybe two, or one and a Llawan, Cephalid Empress will put you over fifty percent, and I'm studying the best way to accomodate them.

If anyone is interested in the list I'm working on, please show the interest. I will post it on request.

Feel free to disagree with my assessments, but at least justify why you do so we can have a decent discussion. :)

[pippo84]

I picked this deck up when it first appeared in a SCG event. Last time I played it, managed to top3 a Magic-League trial. Not a strong feat, but still something to take into consideration.

The list was the following:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36773

Since then, I picked up Ubgw Landstill but eventually made up my mind about what Control shell I wanted to play. CounterTop Thopter is much more reliable and, surprisingly enough, can threaten to actually end the game quite fast after locking it, something Ubgw has trouble with.

I drew some conclusions after extensive testing against the top Grand-Prix decks, as well as the other Aggro matchups - namely Zoo and Goblins - and there are a few topics I'd like to address.

MOAT VS HUMILITY
Moat is better against Goblins, Humility is better against Zoo and Merfolk. Coralhelm Commander is still a card and gets around Moat pretty well, since basically you play the 4cc card against Merfolk only when you're in a pinch and wasted your spot-removal, and the Merfolk player will protect it at all costs if you're playing against a competent opponent. Goblins has absolutely no way of dealing with Moat except with a Green splash or Anarchy, while Zoo has the troublesome Qasali Pridemage which gets "answered" pretty swiftly with Humility instead of Moat. However, it is important to remind yourself that sticking either one in the battlefield isn't game over for your opponent. That's why I chose to bring two Firespout to the maindeck. Suddenly the aggro matchup goes from close to heavily in your favor, and considering you're -probably- playing Humility over Moat, it takes away the possibility of your opponent overruning you with 1/1s. Humility also has the offchance of nullifying Emrakul and Iona, something Moat lacks, and that's sometimes relevant.
One last thing I'd like to address in this discussion is the UG Madness deck gaining popularity. The tutorable Wonder makes Moat a joke against the deck, which is more of a reason to play Humility.
I don't see myself playing both enchantments as I already have two Jaces filling the 4-drop slot, and none of the two pitch to Force of Will.

POST-SIDEBOARD HATE
If you check the above list, you will see I chose to play with a playset of Tarmogoyf in the Sideboard. They were probably the best cards in my 75, but I would never maindeck them. There's too many creature hate maindecked these days and it is taken out when your opponent is faced against a deck with zero creatures, instead opting for artifact removal, which is stellar against CounterTop Thopter. An unanswered Tarmogoyf ends games very quickly, while all your opponent can do is kill your irrelevant artifacts, which grows Tarmogoyf even more. Plus, people are packing tons of Counterbalance hate Sideboard these days, and I've noticed your opponents tend to dillute their post-sideboard 60 with more hate instead of more pressure - making Tarmogoyf even more powerful. It also does something this deck lacks against combo - a fast clock. Sticking to this mindset, I have opted to, in addition to Tarmogoyfs, make room for two Meddling Mage and one Vendilion Clique in the sideboard (and still playing Ethersworn Canonist). Ever since, I haven't lost a single sideboarded match against combo.

MERFOLK
Merfolk is admittedly the matchup you will least like to face, but it isn't that bad. Make sure you drop a Pithing Needle on AEther Vial which makes them have to play a fair game with an actual fair curve - that's crucial. I have added a second Pithing Needle to the Sideboard over the Ancient Grudge (I was playing Ancient Grudge for the double purpose of killing AEther Vials and hurting Stax, but AEther vial is much more present) so I don't have to waste a Tutor on it every time. The matchup has proven to be close to fifty percent in testing which isn't a bad result at all, but makes me fear if Merfolk starts gaining popularity again - and it will; it won the Grand Prix, after all. A number of Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, maybe two, or one and a Llawan, Cephalid Empress will put you over fifty percent, and I'm studying the best way to accomodate them.

If anyone is interested in the list I'm working on, please show the interest. I will post it on request.

Feel free to disagree with my assessments, but at least justify why you do so we can have a decent discussion. :)



I agree with your post.
I am playing moat and I always found it fantastic! Against Merfolk I land it before finishing my removals though..
Time ago I was also thinking of playing Tarmogoyf in the SB, but I prefer playing a 3 Color list to support basics and Back to Basics better. Thus I added Baneslayer Angel. It rocks! I never hav problems to reach 5 mana to cast it and with the lifelink he is a beating! If I would chose another creature it would be Vendilion Clique because of it's ability and because it can fly.

In my experience pre-board games are almost always at least slightly in our favour so I suggest testing post side a lot. I tried Meddling Mage when I first approached this deck. I always found him good, but thought that there could be better cards to SB. And then I thought of the "transformational" (not quite) board with Baneslayer Angels I'm playing.

Last point: I don't think that our worst MU is Merfolk, but Jace control (aka UBG Landeed).
With all the counters they have, Pernicious Deed and Jace I really see it a nightmare MU.. And the deck is getting more and more popular in my meta.

[Tammit67]

You could try Karmic Justice if you hate deed. That deck is very good against us though. I try to needle deed, get Back to Basics in play, but they still have such a counter suite it's hard.

[Tammit67]

Bump: Just came in 6th in a 45 person event, at TOGIT in Somerville, NJ. Got a beta Berzerk for my trouble... I'll post some small report tomorrow.

Edit: Report
Rd 1: Merfolk
G1: I make a great misplay running out Thopter foundry instead of sword of the meek turn two, and I get punished for it thanks to daze, and lose soon thereafter with sword sitting in my hand. Spell pierce is annoying.
G2: Lords and wasteland cut me off from enough mana to land moat before being overrun.

Rd 2: Hypergenesis
G1: He is a fatty short of going off turn one, and that is all I need. I untap with top turn one with E tutor in hand, waiting for that cascade or show n tell to fetch humility. No need to find counterbalance, as his show n tell nets him a clique(!) and I land humility. Moat comes down for the lock, and he gives it a couple of turns before scooping.
G2: E tutor and brainstorm, plus force/Jace and lands. Keep. I survive until turn two, and the fun starts. I e tutor for humility in response to hypergenesis, brainstorm it into my hand, putting back jace, picking up top and Karmic justice. Humility+top+justice come down while spirit guide+sphinx of the steel wind+ingot chewer land for him. Top finds me the combo in short order.

Rd 3: Merfolk
G1: A quick thoptersword stabilizes me at 6 through a lot of spell pierce/ force that shut down hopes of moat. He attacks into it once before we move on.
G2: Merfolk on the play is bad news. Spell pierce my top, standstill. The lords come crashing down soon after, and his force seals it.
G3: Hey look, my Sideboarded cards! Unfortunately my deck wont cough up a second white source and I am forced to e tutor for pithing needle-> mutavault to buy a turn. I rip the plains, and 3xkitchen finks starts shooting my life outside of alpha strike range, and swing for the win.

Rd 4: Joe Stempo with New Horizons
G1: I swords a creature, and ORing Jace, landing humility. He forces my thopter despite my attempts to bait a counter, and I soon die to 5 resolved 1/1’s. Nice hand.
G2: Moat, Jace Counterbalance, top, karmic Justice, Ult with jace, protecting from stifle, removing Clique to stop karakas interactions. We don’t have time for a game 3

Rd 5: Ryan McKinney with Lands
G1: Long and drawn out. He attempts to beat me down with factories since turn 2, ends up dropping me to 7 as I casually set up CB and thopter sword. He is forced to T west for tabernacle, and loams it back for EE. EE takes the tokens, ruins puts it back on top to hit my combo and CB, and my top finally reveals maindeck crypt, hitting loam and EE. I swords more offending Factories and we play draw go until I reassemble thopters and EE @3 to destroy ensnaring bridge.
G2: My hate stays in hand at 3 mana as I never have enough to cast anything thanks to port and ghostquarter preventing my draws from being land. He cannot kill me in time however, and is a turn or two short.

Rd 6: Jim Higgenbottom with TES
Jim could draw into Top 8 had he not been paired down, sitting at 12 points to my 10. Sorry Jim.
G1: I mull to 5 like a pro, brainstorming into CBtop turn 2/3 with force back up. I don’t have a 1 on top for chant, and place top there instead. He goes all in on infernal sensing weakness, but I have force or enlightened tutor to counter and he moves for his sideboard.
G2: My initial 7 are good, and set up CB top again,as he cantrips into K grip on my upkeep. I e tutor for back to basics to stunt his mana and find additional CB’s. LED’s come down to tempt my reveal while I’m tapped out, but I refuse to bite. I find jace, fateseal is a cruel Mistress.

Top 8: Evan with Merfolk
Man I don’t like playing against merfolk.
G1: Spell pierce sucks, I fetch the trop to bait a waste, which he does, but I cannot profit from it.
G2: Moat locks it out.
G3: Moat lands again with me at 10 while he has LoA and coralhelm. I get knocked to 3 thanks to attack and fetching and my top reveals more tundra’s and top. I play thopter foundry to scare his attack, but he swings for the win.

Ended up in 6th with a Beta berserk. A Fun day of magic.

[dtrooper]

@Tammit67, can you post your list? Congratulations on the result. :)

[Tammit67]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell


4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt (saw a lot of land.dec and moved the 2nd EE to the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Vedalken Shackles (soon to become Porphyry Nodes)
1 Pithing needle
1 EE
1 Karmic Justice

Some of the choices are weird. Not sold on Karmic Justice yet since it comes down slowly but I haven't had anyone attempt to blow up my stuff with it out. Nodes seems fine for anti aggro, much better than shackles. The main is solid, I really like Moat and Humility main. The ability to go both is huge against decks that frequently can put you in awkward spots. Gotta really be careful the opponent isn't running Planeswalkers themselves though, since you are effectively cut off from Thopping to victory.

[pippo84]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell


4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt (saw a lot of land.dec and moved the 2nd EE to the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Vedalken Shackles (soon to become Porphyry Nodes)
1 Pithing needle
1 EE
1 Karmic Justice

Some of the choices are weird. Not sold on Karmic Justice yet since it comes down slowly but I haven't had anyone attempt to blow up my stuff with it out. Nodes seems fine for anti aggro, much better than shackles. The main is solid, I really like Moat and Humility main. The ability to go both is huge against decks that frequently can put you in awkward spots. Gotta really be careful the opponent isn't running Planeswalkers themselves though, since you are effectively cut off from Thopping to victory.

Congratz on the solid finish!

Seems that you have been "rolled over" by Merfolk. Have you thought of something to improve the MU?

I noticed you aren't playing mass removal (eg. Firespout etc), but you are running Paths instead. How where the Paths all day? Having Firespout would have been better?

[Tammit67]

Congratz on the solid finish!

Seems that you have been "rolled over" by Merfolk. Have you thought of something to improve the MU?

I noticed you aren't playing mass removal (eg. Firespout etc), but you are running Paths instead. How where the Paths all day? Having Firespout would have been better?

Rolled over is a little harsh. Preboard it is certainly not in my favor (60/40 maybe?), but post it is closer to 50% i feel. The nodes hope to push it up. As for paths, they are better against other decks in the field than firespout. If I aim to include firespout, the finks are to be removed, but that hurts my zoo/goblins matchup (albeit spout helps goblins). Swords+path+finks+nodes makes the matchup acceptable without being dead in other games. Hell, I'd side in finks against control just to have beater.

As time goes on, firespout is probably the end I'm heading towards. But it won't be path that I take out for it.

[pippo84]

Rolled over is a little harsh. Preboard it is certainly not in my favor (60/40 maybe?), but post it is closer to 50% i feel. The nodes hope to push it up. As for paths, they are better against other decks in the field than firespout. If I aim to include firespout, the finks are to be removed, but that hurts my zoo/goblins matchup (albeit spout helps goblins). Swords+path+finks+nodes makes the matchup acceptable without being dead in other games. Hell, I'd side in finks against control just to have beater.

As time goes on, firespout is probably the end I'm heading towards. But it won't be path that I take out for it.



Sorry, I didn't want to be rude or what. I just wrote it because you lost from Merfolk more than once.. FYI I played a match against a friend with Merfolk and lost it too..
I wanted to draw more cards because I had lots of answers, but could not find them..

Anyways thanks for the answer.
It's good to read that post board there are other players that board in creatures. From what I saw choices played are Kitchen Finks, Vendilion Clique, Baneslayer and Tarmogoyf.

[Tammit67]

Sorry, I didn't want to be rude or what. I just wrote it because you lost from Merfolk more than once.. FYI I played a match against a friend with Merfolk and lost it too..
I wanted to draw more cards because I had lots of answers, but could not find them..

Anyways thanks for the answer.
It's good to read that post board there are other players that board in creatures. From what I saw choices played are Kitchen Finks, Vendilion Clique, Baneslayer and Tarmogoyf.

No offense taken. I faced 3 of the 5 merfolk at the tourney, so go me. Ensnaring bridge is better against them than what I maindeck, and that should factor into hwat people run.

The creatures are cool post board. I just really like finks versitility in aggro matchups, though clique/goyf are better against control for sure.

[pippo84]

Mmm.. 3 Merfolk out of 5? Unlucky!

I am testing Baneslayer post side and it's a real beating! Even though it's slow to cast when it lands it's usually GG because of the +10 race he gives. I also like Vendilion Clique because it sneaks problematic cards (Krosan Grip) from the opponent's hand. I never tested Kitchen Finks but I see they are really strong with the life gain ability + persist. I must say I don't like Tarmogoyf in here because it's the most played creature and an opponent can just leave another Goyf in defense and chump block it forever. I know we have removals though..
This said I also prefer flying creatures because of MD Moat.

I tried Vedalken Shacles for a while. They can be really good or so so. For this reason I'll try Ensnaring Bridge. It would have helped in many MU's I played.

[bum_man]

Greetings People! I am new to this thread, I have developed interest in building this deck because it seems very fun to play and seems competitive. I just have a question. I play in a meta full of Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Rock variants, Survival variants, Loam, and Dredge. I don't really know if a counter-top shell would do well in my meta because of all the vials and pridemages running around. My question is will a generic Counter-top thopter shell that is tuned to do well against aggro enough for this meta, or would it be better to drop the Counter-top shell altogether?

Thanks for your inputs guys!

[pippo84]

Lately I have been thinking about the list to play..

FYI this was my last list:

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Topter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Vedalken Shackles

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

22 Lands.

Ok, the list seems quite standard.. Btw I really suggest adding a third Jace..

Looking at the GP Columbus top8 I noticed the CounterTop list that ran just 8 creatures and more control. I thought that the deck was getting towards this direction (by this I mean Thopter because of few creatures).
He played Firespout main, like Supreme Blue did. I like the idea, so why not cut the Toolbox for Firespout?

1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Ensnaring Bridge for 3 Firespout. Thoughts? Seems an ok swap to me.

This leads to another point though...

The deck is really slow.. Lately I was thinking also to cut 2 cards (Pithing Needle and Ensnaring Bridge) to increase the combo parts in order to actually see them earlier (and thus going 3/2 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split).

But what about firespout then?

This lead me to another thought. (NOT TESTED YET).

What if I try and cut the Enlightened Tutors and the Toolbox to have more combo pieces?

This is what came out:

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare (a third would be great!)

3 Firespout

4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek

3 Jace 2.0

So, this list is much less flexible and suffers more from Extirpate, and less from Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. You don't have the possibility to tutor up for an answer, but will be less likely to need it because you will see all your combo pieces earlier and will be able to re-build your combo if it gets destroyed. And games should be shorter.

Thought?

Is this idea completely mad?


:eek:

[Ratavagnimalf]

I haven't done any tournament play on MTGO with the deck recently, but I agree with you. The deck can be very very slow at times. On MTGO, you only have 30 minutes of chess clock for up to 3 matches. Under those constraints, you want to go for thopter/sword quickly. I switched to 3 foundry / 1 sword, main deck firespouts, and I've been really really happy with it. Haven't gone to a third Jace, but as soon as I can afford another I will.

Good luck with your new build!

[Tammit67]

The lack of flexibility surely hurts certain matchups. Testing yo

[pippo84]

I will test the list as soon as I can. Anyways at least I want to increase the number from a 2/1 to a 3/2 split.

What about running Firespout MD?

[Ramirez777]

I have a very different take on Counter Top Thopter, and am not honestly sure if this is thread to post my version of the deck in. A majority of the lists I see posted take a more defensive approach to get thopter foundry online. I've taken my list to a local tournament only once and only made top 8 out of 32 players, but I am in the process of play testing the deck. I feel the deck is very refined in its approach, and few alterations should me made to the deck. The sideboard is currently a work in progress, but it is approaching completion. Below I will give the deck list, and then a list of card choices, and a general explanation. Once I get more testing in I will come back and edit it for match-up results.

U/B/W Counter Top Thopter

Creatures: 11
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Spellstutter Sprite

Spells: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact//Enchantment: 14
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Thopter Foundry
3x Counterbalance
3x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: 21
3x Mutavault
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle

Card Choices:

Creatures-

Dark Confidant: Primary draw engine for the deck. The curve is so low in this deck, that confidant will rarely burn you for more than 1 life. Three tops ensure that his damage remains minimal, and force doesn’t creep up on you. Brainstorm manipulates this stack as well.

Stoneforge Mystic: Serves dual purposes. To fetch the Sword of the Meek to get your thopter combo online, or provides a deadly piece of equipment to one of your flying tokens. The security of having a large piece of equipment uncounterable is very powerful against decks like Merfolk.

Spellstutter Sprite: Provides a good counter source for low cc spells, and can still be effective late game with numerous fairie tokens. Mutavaults also help power up the curve. As an added bonus Spellstutter Sprite can return Sword of the Meek to play.

A low, weak creature count does not hurt you, as all this cards are still very effective outside the damage they can deal. Almost all the damage that is dealt is done by your token generators.

Spells-

Force of Will: Duh, and yes there are 19 blue cards in this deck, including force, to ensure its usefulness.

Brainstorm: I run 7 fetch lands to ensure its success. Also, Brainstorm combos well with Bob.

Spell Snare: Helps fight opposing counterbalance decks, but could also be substituted with Spell Pierce.

Swords to Plowshares: We run white for Stoneforge, so we might as well add in one of the best creatures removal spells.

I run just the bare minimum of effective counters to take out cards that make the game near unwinable for us. While you will not be winning the counter war, you will still be able to shut down opponent’s bombs. Swords to Plowshares helps defend against early rushes from goblins, and can help shut off key utility creatures.

Artifact//Enchantment-

Sense's Divining Top: Obviously combos with Counterbalance, but also helps find solutions and fixes Bob's downside.

Thopter Foundry: Not only does this give you a non-fae flying tokens, to help prevent from being shut down by Engineered Plague, it combos with swords of the meek. The life gain provided also helps counter act losses from Bob and Bitterblossom.

Counterbalance: I only run three, because it's not absolutely essential 2nd turn play. Bob and Bitterblossom also set up around the same time, and you really don't want to see multiples. Nice to be able to pitch extras to FoW though.

Bitterblossom: This card wrecks so much face it's ridiculous. You need blockers *poof*, you need an army in the air *poof*. The major downside is this deck can typically only support one in play, but you almost always want see one with in the first few turns. Three feels safe.

Equipment: I'm going to just bundle all the best equipment playable in legacy in this group. Jitte, SoFI, & SotM are all amazing, and win you games. Jitte softens the life loss, and wreck winnie agro decks, SoFI kills merfolk and goblins, & SotM is your combo piece.

Land-

21x lands have been awesome, but some times you feel you want more just for the Thopter Foundry combo. Mutavault in play testing has not been amazing, but still performs a great role of boosting your fae count. Academy Ruins as a one of has provided some late game protection. The rest of the mana base seems pretty self-explanatory.

Sideboard-

Ensnaring Bridge: Amazing! You can almost always empty your hand when you need to by at least turn 3 or 4, and shut down opposing agro decks. You draw your card for the turn with an empty hand, swing with all your 1/1 flyers and then dump your one card, and say go.

Relic of Progenitus: I chose this over Tormond's Crypt due to it's 1cc in combination with Counterbalance. Plus, when you blow it you're card neutral.

Sword of Light and Shadow: Self explanatory, for when you need to change it out with SoFI.

Duress: Just an added bit of combo hate, but this slot is open for change.

Echoing Truth: To counteract opposing storm token generating decks and to bounce cards so you can swing in.

Pithing Needle: Absolutely needed. I'm thinking of changing the count to four. Engineered Explosives absolutely wrecks this deck. You have to shut it down at all costs. This also shuts down like cards, such as deeds, plane's walkers, and other dangerous cards.

-I will post match-ups as soon as I have more time to test the deck. If this deck needs to be moved by a moderator, please do so.

[pippo84]

I have a very different take on Counter Top Thopter, and am not honestly sure if this is thread to post my version of the deck in. A majority of the lists I see posted take a more defensive approach to get thopter foundry online. I've taken my list to a local tournament only once and only made top 8 out of 32 players, but I am in the process of play testing the deck. I feel the deck is very refined in its approach, and few alterations should me made to the deck. The sideboard is currently a work in progress, but it is approaching completion. Below I will give the deck list, and then a list of card choices, and a general explanation. Once I get more testing in I will come back and edit it for match-up results.

U/B/W Counter Top Thopter

Creatures: 11
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Spellstutter Sprite

Spells: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact//Enchantment: 14
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Thopter Foundry
3x Counterbalance
3x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: 21
3x Mutavault
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle

Card Choices:

Creatures-

Dark Confidant: Primary draw engine for the deck. The curve is so low in this deck, that confidant will rarely burn you for more than 1 life. Three tops ensure that his damage remains minimal, and force doesn’t creep up on you. Brainstorm manipulates this stack as well.

Stoneforge Mystic: Serves dual purposes. To fetch the Sword of the Meek to get your thopter combo online, or provides a deadly piece of equipment to one of your flying tokens. The security of having a large piece of equipment uncounterable is very powerful against decks like Merfolk.

Spellstutter Sprite: Provides a good counter source for low cc spells, and can still be effective late game with numerous fairie tokens. Mutavaults also help power up the curve. As an added bonus Spellstutter Sprite can return Sword of the Meek to play.

A low, weak creature count does not hurt you, as all this cards are still very effective outside the damage they can deal. Almost all the damage that is dealt is done by your token generators.

Spells-

Force of Will: Duh, and yes there are 19 blue cards in this deck, including force, to ensure its usefulness.

Brainstorm: I run 7 fetch lands to ensure its success. Also, Brainstorm combos well with Bob.

Spell Snare: Helps fight opposing counterbalance decks, but could also be substituted with Spell Pierce.

Swords to Plowshares: We run white for Stoneforge, so we might as well add in one of the best creatures removal spells.

I run just the bare minimum of effective counters to take out cards that make the game near unwinable for us. While you will not be winning the counter war, you will still be able to shut down opponent’s bombs. Swords to Plowshares helps defend against early rushes from goblins, and can help shut off key utility creatures.

Artifact//Enchantment-

Sense's Divining Top: Obviously combos with Counterbalance, but also helps find solutions and fixes Bob's downside.

Thopter Foundry: Not only does this give you a non-fae flying tokens, to help prevent from being shut down by Engineered Plague, it combos with swords of the meek. The life gain provided also helps counter act losses from Bob and Bitterblossom.

Counterbalance: I only run three, because it's not absolutely essential 2nd turn play. Bob and Bitterblossom also set up around the same time, and you really don't want to see multiples. Nice to be able to pitch extras to FoW though.

Bitterblossom: This card wrecks so much face it's ridiculous. You need blockers *poof*, you need an army in the air *poof*. The major downside is this deck can typically only support one in play, but you almost always want see one with in the first few turns. Three feels safe.

Equipment: I'm going to just bundle all the best equipment playable in legacy in this group. Jitte, SoFI, & SotM are all amazing, and win you games. Jitte softens the life loss, and wreck winnie agro decks, SoFI kills merfolk and goblins, & SotM is your combo piece.

Land-

21x lands have been awesome, but some times you feel you want more just for the Thopter Foundry combo. Mutavault in play testing has not been amazing, but still performs a great role of boosting your fae count. Academy Ruins as a one of has provided some late game protection. The rest of the mana base seems pretty self-explanatory.

Sideboard-

Ensnaring Bridge: Amazing! You can almost always empty your hand when you need to by at least turn 3 or 4, and shut down opposing agro decks. You draw your card for the turn with an empty hand, swing with all your 1/1 flyers and then dump your one card, and say go.

Relic of Progenitus: I chose this over Tormond's Crypt due to it's 1cc in combination with Counterbalance. Plus, when you blow it you're card neutral.

Sword of Light and Shadow: Self explanatory, for when you need to change it out with SoFI.

Duress: Just an added bit of combo hate, but this slot is open for change.

Echoing Truth: To counteract opposing storm token generating decks and to bounce cards so you can swing in.

Pithing Needle: Absolutely needed. I'm thinking of changing the count to four. Engineered Explosives absolutely wrecks this deck. You have to shut it down at all costs. This also shuts down like cards, such as deeds, plane's walkers, and other dangerous cards.

-I will post match-ups as soon as I have more time to test the deck. If this deck needs to be moved by a moderator, please do so.

A friend of mine tested a similar list and wasn't satisfied with it.
I played against him in a tournament and smashed him 2-0 easily.
Other than that I have no experience with the deck you posted because it plays differently from the "standard" one.

[RichardK]

By any chance, would a budget version of this deck be at least semi competitive? The only thing I cannot afford is FOW (costs $80 on MTGO). Could I just replace FOW with Spell Pierce or would that cripple the deck too much?

[bum_man]

By any chance, would a budget version of this deck be at least semi competitive? The only thing I cannot afford is FOW (costs $80 on MTGO). Could I just replace FOW with Spell Pierce or would that cripple the deck too much?
I don't think this deck will be competitive enough without FOW. The card is just to good to be left out. I too am building a budget version of this deck and at the very least i wont be using real duals, i'll be planning to use 3 shocklands since my list is very basic heavy. I won't be playing moat either, and i'm considering using only 1 Jace TMS. This is probably the most budgeted that I'd want to make the deck, the performance doesn't suffer as much, in testing at least. @__@

[RichardK]

Well, I can afford (or already have) most cards from this deck icnluding duals and fetches. But price for FOW online is ridiculous and I don't want to pay $320+ for a FOW playset (I might buy them as my Christmas present in December but not sooner :)) so I am looking for an alternative. FOW is ruining the CB converted mana cost configuration anyways (there aren't any spells you would want to counter with CB that have such converted mana cost).

[bum_man]

Well, I can afford (or already have) most cards from this deck icnluding duals and fetches. But price for FOW online is ridiculous and I don't want to pay $320+ for a FOW playset (I might buy them as my Christmas present in December but not sooner :)) so I am looking for an alternative. FOW is ruining the CB converted mana cost configuration anyways (there aren't any spells you would want to counter with CB that have such converted mana cost).
True it is expensive but it's value in the deck is irreplaceable. It's not there for CB anyway, its there as a free counter to counter opponent's spells that could wreck you, like an opposing CB top set-up for example. It's also a free counter for protecting the combo or other bombs your deck could play. If you don't have access to fow, have you tried misdirection? Its as good as fow in protecting the combo from permission but not at stopping opposing bombs though.

[bum_man]

I am starting to build this deck for casual and semi-competitive play on a budget, i already have majority of the parts and begun testing various lists to see what would work best. my meta is very diverse, full of BANT variants, survival variants, zoo, merfolk, goblins, rock, dredge, thresh variants, faerie variants, and some combo. I've arrived at the list below.

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3/4 Counterspell
3/4 Swords to plowshares

2 Firespout

4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3/4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

I am pretty much decided on how the rest of the deck looks except for the 60th card. I am testing what would be better 4th counterspell (it helps the curve for CB, its a hard counter which is good since i am very iffy on relying on counter-top too much), 4th swords to plowshares (i run 2 firespout main because of the number of zoo, merfolk, gobs, bant, rock, and other aggro/aggro-control. i feel that it should be 4 swords), or the 4th sensei's divining top (I understand and agree that for tops are mandatory for being to set-up the softlock early, but in testing I rarely notice the difference when it comes to the speed and frequency of being able to set up, although the redundancy of the card is very obvious). I just want to ask what you guys think about it. What card needs to be played as a set to be able help the deck most? And No, I don't plan on going down to 2 counterspell, the card is very strong especially as protection when casting counterbalance or top against blue decks. How bout playing with 61 cards, do you guys think is advisable? or it meddles with the numbers of the deck too much.

Thanks for the input guys! :smile:

[ivanpei]

I've been playing the 3/2 split since day 1 and I tried cutting down to 2/1 but never liked it. The combo comes online too slow and the card disadvantage of having to tutor up both pieces is a pain. I highly recommend going up to 3/2. Your aggro mu also improves by having more combo pieces negating the need to play firespouts main. I posted my list a few pages back and the only change is probably -1 oring + 1 bridge. They are both 3cc for balance but bridge seems more bomby to me. bridge + moat also protects you from being blown out by a top deck pridemage/grip. Its nice as insurance and also as an easier to cast moat. And looking at the above list, please don't play tez, he's too slow, more jaces please. I also don't like the seat of the synod, I've never once tutored for it. Getting it wastelanded on the other hand, was all too common. And sacking it to thopter is pretty narrow at best. I also prefer bridge over shackles. Cheers!

[bum_man]

I've been playing the 3/2 split since day 1 and I tried cutting down to 2/1 but never liked it. The combo comes online too slow and the card disadvantage of having to tutor up both pieces is a pain. I highly recommend going up to 3/2. Your aggro mu also improves by having more combo pieces negating the need to play firespouts main.
More combo pieces makes the deck faster but it also makes it more clunky, it lowers the card quality of the cards you get to see off a top before and after a shuffle. The most I could do in this direction is +1 foundry but not another sword. I'll try to look into this although right now the spouts are doing fine.


I posted my list a few pages back and the only change is probably -1 oring + 1 bridge. They are both 3cc for balance but bridge seems more bomby to me. bridge + moat also protects you from being blown out by a top deck pridemage/grip. Its nice as insurance and also as an easier to cast moat.
Like I said, I'm building this deck casually and semi-competitively. That means I'm not spending to buy a moat. Humility works fine, and I prefer it over moat because of the high number of pridemages in my meta. Bridge doesn't work well with counters nor does it work well with humility. How was your experience with O ring? It has been playing great for me, takes out opposing explosives, pridemages, propagandas, opposing jaces and alot of other things. I'd want to play another main but space constraints keep me from doing so.


And looking at the above list, please don't play tez, he's too slow, more jaces please. I also don't like the seat of the synod, I've never once tutored for it. Getting it wastelanded on the other hand, was all too common. And sacking it to thopter is pretty narrow at best. I also prefer bridge over shackles. Cheers!
Again, there's a tez because I'm not spending on another jace. Tez is slow, yes, but it's a tutor, a counter target and a win con, I've won games because he was able to animate my needles, tops and explosives to swing for the win after being hit by sadistic sacrament. Seat of the synod is a variable slot, i use it as a means to takeback sword of the meek in the event that i'm put in a position that an opponent crypts the sword. I rarely see seat enough in my starting hands that I play it as one of my starting lands. Again bridge doesn't work well with humility, and I really like shackles, in an aggro meta like mine, a resolved shackles is a very very good position, plus, it's a win condition. I try to make the deck very flexible in terms of ways to win and ways that I could combat whatever it is my opponent could bring to the table.

I'll looking into your suggestions in my testing. Thanks for the inputs!

[ivanpei]

No worries, if you're playing humility then I think you need to play the spouts. If you don't see alot of wastelands, I think 1 seat is fine. I still prefer another island instead though. Tez is a fine alternative to jace as a budget option. I agree that bridge and counters are not great. I think the most common problem with bridge is being stuck with a counter in hand and letting a noble heirarch or 1/1 poke you to death. You can brainstorm your counters back on top of your library and use top to keep the counterspells 'floating' on top of your library. That worked for me. If you manage to track down a moat, you might want to try it. O-ring was useful, it nuked jaces, opposing balances, bobs. It was never dead, its just not 'bomby'. With the 3/2 split, I don't have that much slots to play around with so it was a sad cut. Same goes for shackles. I haven't had many situations where I missed the versatility though. I much prefer consistency. Good luck with the deck!

[bum_man]

No worries, if you're playing humility then I think you need to play the spouts. If you don't see alot of wastelands, I think 1 seat is fine. I still prefer another island instead though. Tez is a fine alternative to jace as a budget option. I agree that bridge and counters are not great. I think the most common problem with bridge is being stuck with a counter in hand and letting a noble heirarch or 1/1 poke you to death. You can brainstorm your counters back on top of your library and use top to keep the counterspells 'floating' on top of your library. That worked for me. If you manage to track down a moat, you might want to try it. O-ring was useful, it nuked jaces, opposing balances, bobs. It was never dead, its just not 'bomby'. With the 3/2 split, I don't have that much slots to play around with so it was a sad cut. Same goes for shackles. I haven't had many situations where I missed the versatility though. I much prefer consistency. Good luck with the deck!
I see alot of wastelands in my meta, it's just that I haven't had seat of the synod in my starting hand nor in my first few draws that I play it immediately only to be wasted, I only play it late when its a non-factor, or when I really need an artifact for a thopter or to bring sword back. I tried moat in testing, its a good card its just too expensive and there are just too many pridemages where I play. O-ring is not bomby but its arguably the deck's best "silver bullet" its nice to be able to have at least 1 answer for random crap your opponents may have.

On my question, from my list, what do you think the deck needs most? a 4th top, counterspell, or swords? or play the 4th of 2 cards and play 61 cards?

[ivanpei]

I don't always have the luxury to hold back the seat until mid/late game. Especially if I'm worried about stifle, efficient brainstorming/jacestorming or using predict properly. To each his own, I just prefer a simple island, makes things less complicated. I'd play the 4th swords, 4th counterspell is pretty heavy. 4th top is not a must but highly recommended. You can cut a bullet for it. Like I said, o-ring is fine if you have space for it. It's never a bad card, I just prefer a streamlined deck with minimal silver bullets. I've always had a personal policy of simple, efficient, streamlined with minimal bells and whistles. This deck isn't lightning quick so STP is needed to keep you alive until you get your bomb enchantments out or until you assemble either countertop or thopterfoundry.

[pippo84]

I don't always have the luxury to hold back the seat until mid/late game. Especially if I'm worried about stifle, efficient brainstorming/jacestorming or using predict properly. To each his own, I just prefer a simple island, makes things less complicated. I'd play the 4th swords, 4th counterspell is pretty heavy. 4th top is not a must but highly recommended. You can cut a bullet for it. Like I said, o-ring is fine if you have space for it. It's never a bad card, I just prefer a streamlined deck with minimal silver bullets. I've always had a personal policy of simple, efficient, streamlined with minimal bells and whistles. This deck isn't lightning quick so STP is needed to keep you alive until you get your bomb enchantments out or until you assemble either countertop or thopterfoundry.

I am heading in the same direction. As I wrote a few posts ago I was leading to having less silver bullets, a 3/2 split and more consistency.
Having silver bullets is nice, but having the combo faster is really good against aggro. And games are shorter.

[ivanpei]

I agree with you sir 100%. I'm glad there are more people who share the same opinion. I wouldn't discount the 2/1 split totally. I might go to 2/1 if blue control suddenly takes over the format and aggro died out. However, in the control matchup, the problem is enlightened tutors's card disadvantage and not the number of combo components IMO. I guess I'd cut 1 tutor as well if I wanted an extremely good blue MU. But the card disadvantage from e tutor can be offset by their dead removal (swords especially).

[pippo84]

I agree with you sir 100%. I'm glad there are more people who share the same opinion. I wouldn't discount the 2/1 split totally. I might go to 2/1 if blue control suddenly takes over the format and aggro died out. However, in the control matchup, the problem is enlightened tutors's card disadvantage and not the number of combo components IMO. I guess I'd cut 1 tutor as well if I wanted an extremely good blue MU. But the card disadvantage from e tutor can be offset by their dead removal (swords especially).

Against decks running :b: post board I decrease the split from 3/2 to 2/1 because of the possibility of extirpate. However against aggro seeing the combo earlier is better.

[versus004]

I post my list if it could help you:

Counter-thopters (French meta, if it exists...)

// Lands
4 [M10] Island (2)
3 [IA] Plains (3)
1 [ON] Mountain (3)
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Tundra

// Spells
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [BD] Counterspell
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility (can't afford Moat)
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant (can't afford the 2nd Jace)

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes (currently in test)
SB: 1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring

The last version I played (the last week) contained a 3/1 split for thopter/sword, a mountain instead of a plain, Ajani vengeant instead of Elspeth and O-ring for the 2nd sword.

I'm open if you have some advises (sorry for my english).

[ivanpei]

I would play more fetches instead of the 3rd plains and the 3rd tundra. You don't need that much white, and fetches are excellent with top/jace/balance. The maindeck seems solid, some space for spell snare is optional. I've liked playing 3 snares in a fast meta. - Needle, 2nd EE and -1 Elspeth seems like a possible alternative. I highly recommend the 2nd Jace though. When you finally get it, I think cutting a snare will be ok. Sideboard really needs a rework, too many 1 offs. The only 1 offs that I think are must plays are: Crypt, relic, o-ring, blood moon, needle. The rest can be cut for some combination of path to exile/spouts (kitchen finks is pretty good too, how has it been in testing?) and red elemental blast. Red elemental blast especially, that card is insanely good vs blue (which is usually a high % of most metas). Some of my personal thoughts. Good job on playing the 3/2 split. I strongly believe its the correct call right now.

[versus004]

Thx for the help ivanpei.

Indeed, I think about cut the 3rd plain for a fetch but keep the 3rd tundra (or cut it for an island maybe). For the rest of the MD, last week was the first time I played the deck so I'll wait for more testing before cutting needle and the 2nd EE (which helps me several times).

About the sideboard, i agree it contains too many "one slots" but, like I said earlier, is only theorical. I like your way about REB and i think about include it instead of canonists, 3rd EE and wheel.

[bum_man]

@versus004: I agree with ivanpei that you don't need that much white, more fetches would be better. How was having 1 Volcanic and 1 Mountain have been in testing? I find it a little redundant especially considering you only need 1 red source at most. I suggest making the volcanic island and 3rd plains 2 more scalding tarns, it works quite as good as having a volcanic in play without the vulnerability to wasteland. I also suggest losing the arid mesa for another island. Me personally, I like having a lot basics in this deck because I see its being very light on dual lands as a major up-side (big reason why some lists have blood moon md), other than these, the rest of your manabase looks fine.
As for the maindeck, I believe 4 fow and 2 counterspells aren't enough. From my experience playing against blue, i'm not sure if it was how i played or was it my list, but it has always been a struggle resolving counterbalance-top especially against blue. They just out gun me during counterwars for counterbalance that i decided then and there that I need to rework my list (I'll be posting it later on). Since you play humility and spouts, I suggest losing 1 EE (I feel having more EE is stronger but spout works better with humility) and 1 Top and 1 sword of the meek (I'll explain the card choices later when I post my list)for 3 snares or just EE and top for 2 counterspells. Maybe its just personal preference but having counterbalances wouldn't make much sense if the deck struggles in winning counterwars outside of counterbalance-top. Apart from this, I see you play 1 Needle over an O-ring, how has needle been playing for you as compared to O-rings? I have also been thinking on which of the two should I play maindeck, I believe currently play O-ring because it's the silver bullet that you can tutor for to answer random troublesome permanents your opponents may have.

I looked into testing some of the suggestions thrown my way during my last post here and I have tested more extensively against more decks and thus, I made adjustments to my deck. My list is now:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares

2 Firespout

3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Now, for the explanation of the changes. 4 counterspell and 3 counterbalance. Chances are I am going to get alot of criticism for this, but regardless, this works for me. I believe this deck needs more than 6 or 7 hard counters in support of the counter-top soft lock. Like I mentioned earlier in testing with blue decks both tempo and counter-top mirrors, this deck struggles in counterwars to resolve counterbalance, and struggles to stop spells that find their way around the counterbalance lock (a 3 to cast EE on 2 colors @_@). I settled on 3 counterbalance because I rarely want to play counterbalance as my 2 drop, I'd rather have mana open for other spells, I often opt to play counterbalance as my four drop so it has counterpell and fow back-up, again maybe it's just the way I play the deck, but I don't always look for landing an early counter-top soft lock (maybe for the deck vets you can also give me cues if you think I'm playing the deck wrongly). I now play 4 stps, because as ivanpei mentioned before, it's very important especially for staying alive espeically for this deck that doesn't win as fast. Now, for 3 top and 3 thopter foundry. I settled on playing 3 tops because as much as I would to have a top in my starting hands, I prefer not having to look via top into more tops. Although, it's highly recommended to play 4, I prefer not having dead cards and drawing into top eventually. As for the 3/2 split, I looked into as I said earlier, the most I would go into this direction is a 3/1 split and that was exactly what I did. a 3/2 split is too much like a said and 2/2 split isn't as good because the 2nd sword is definitely the deadest card in the deck. So I settled on 3 thopter foundries. Thopter foundries are less dead as compared to sword of the meek, and more importantly, you only need 1 sword ever. You can have foundries countered or if you resolve one, the rest are pitched to fow or whatevever. As compared to swords that when countered isn't that big a loss, and when resolved the other sword becomes a blank. You only need to resolve thopter foundry and then just tutor of sword later when you are in a much better position. This is just how I play the deck, comments and constructive criticisms are always welcome. :laugh:

On a sidenote, I've been looking into whether O-ring, 2nd EE or a Needle gets the slot as a variable silver bullet slot? Any insight into this matter, people? Thanks for the input guys!

[heronimus]

Hi guys,

I play this deck for a while now and went to a tournament last weekend. 5 rounds, 1 win against Zoo, 1 draw against Bant Aggro, and 2 losses against Zoo and Landstill. Then I dropped. I played this list:

// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod

// Spells
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The deck plays very nice. But I have some concernes. Postboard I am afraid of Krosan Grips and GY hate. What do you guys do against that? One Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus can ruin your thopter-combo. And Krosan Grip will ruin your Counterbalance / Moat lock.

I thougt of 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard against Krosan Grip, or maybe Greater Auramancy. And maybe a seccond Pithing Needle in de sideboard against Qasali Pridemage and GY hate.

Another problem was that I had too much to tutor for. First tutor for control (counterbalance/moat), than tutor for the win (thoptercombo). For this I am going to add Tezzeret the Seeker. He can tutor for the total wincon, so more tutors can be used for control.

The splash of red and green are nice in the deck. Mainly against Merfolk I have some more answers.

[dorkogoyf]

Hi guys,

I play this deck for a while now and went to a tournament last weekend. 5 rounds, 1 win against Zoo, 1 draw against Bant Aggro, and 2 losses against Zoo and Landstill. Then I dropped. I played this list:

// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod

// Spells
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The deck plays very nice. But I have some concernes. Postboard I am afraid of Krosan Grips and GY hate. What do you guys do against that? One Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus can ruin your thopter-combo. And Krosan Grip will ruin your Counterbalance / Moat lock.

I thougt of 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard against Krosan Grip, or maybe Greater Auramancy. And maybe a seccond Pithing Needle in de sideboard against Qasali Pridemage and GY hate.

Another problem was that I had too much to tutor for. First tutor for control (counterbalance/moat), than tutor for the win (thoptercombo). For this I am going to add Tezzeret the Seeker. He can tutor for the total wincon, so more tutors can be used for control.

The splash of red and green are nice in the deck. Mainly against Merfolk I have some more answers.

First of all, your list is all over the place. You are trying to answer everything, which is spreading your deck too thin. You need one or two tutorable 'bombs' that win you the matchup, and that is it. I suggest streamlining your mana base down to 2 or 3 colors, not the 4 you have here. You are just asking to get blown away by decks with Wasteland.

Second, GY hate outside of Extirpate does not ruin your day if you are smart with making your Thopters. If they activate Crypt or Relic, just make another Thopter in response. When the Crypt or Relic ability resolves, your Sword will no longer be in the bin.

For Grips, you can board in some combination of Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage, or just a fatty game-winning creature that becomes better post-board since they usually board out all of their removal - some guys on here have been running Baneslayer Angel with decent results, I think. I have never tried her, though.
You don't need extra Pithing Needles against Zoo. Your goal is to establish Balance/Top with and float either 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 on top (depending on what kind of list they are running).

[cuthbertthecat]

Has anybody tested the Poryphory Nodes tech that was in that SCG article a while back? It seemed solid, but I never got around to testing it.

[(nameless one)]

Has anybody tested the Poryphory Nodes tech that was in that SCG article a while back? It seemed solid, but I never got around to testing it.

I believe that has been discussed a few pages back.

[Bongo]

Hi guys, I need a quick feedback on the following list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Humility

Curve
1cc: 14
2cc: 12
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4

As you can see, the deck lacks 3cc drops. What would you change to remedy this? Is Thirst for Knowledge viable?
Otherwise, I've been pretty happy with the deck. Back to Basics has been surprisingly good. I also upped the Thopter/Sword count from 2/1 to 3/2 and never looked back.

[versus004]

@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

[Sims]

@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

Do note- Grand Architect is a lord for blue creatures, so your thopters will be 2/2's, not 1/1's, and thus will not trigger Sword of the Meek from the yard when they enter play. So while you can tap your thopters for mana and make them a little bigger, you cannot go infinite with just Architect, a Sword, and a Foundry.

[versus004]

...
...
... I had forgotten this part of the sword...

Epic fail. ^^

[dorkogoyf]

Hi guys, I need a quick feedback on the following list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Humility

Curve
1cc: 14
2cc: 12
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4

As you can see, the deck lacks 3cc drops. What would you change to remedy this? Is Thirst for Knowledge viable?
Otherwise, I've been pretty happy with the deck. Back to Basics has been surprisingly good. I also upped the Thopter/Sword count from 2/1 to 3/2 and never looked back.

3 Jace/3 Foundry seems like a lot, and 2 Oblivion Ring looks really clunky. How has hit held up in testing? I personally like 1 Crucible of Worlds/1 Ensnaring Bridge.


@Darkogoyf: I like your idée about the game-winning creature in sideboard and I would like to know your feelings about the steel hellkite from Scars of Mirrodin. I really love this card and its ability to make a EE each turn.

In the other side, what all of the thopters players think about the Grand Architect which can change a mere thopter into a unlimited mana generator. Indeed, each thopter can, thanks to the Architect, produces 2 mana. With the thopter combo online, this ability may come to be monstruous.

The Steel Hellkite is a 6 mana artifact creature. The important part is that it is an artifact; we want to blank their removal and make them feel silly for boarding out all their creature removal for artifact removal (ie. turn those Krosan Grips and Ancient Grudges into dead cards); Steel Hellkite does not accomplish this.

@Everyone:
I am thinking of changing to a green splash to allow us to board in Rhox War Monk to fight Zoo decks who board in Grip. Any feedback here? I'm having a brainfart moment and can't recall other decks who are really dependent on Grip postboard against us...I know there's a few more.

[versus004]

Bant-like decks (aggro, NO, loam, counterbalance) apreciates the grip against us... New Horizons maybe

Edit: I forgot Survival decks.

[pippo84]

Is anyone still playing this deck? The thread seems dead..

I will play it agains.. Stopped for a while to try another deck, but I'm back..

Btw this list arrived second at Ovino 5, a tournament in Italy with 350 people from around Europe:

2° Place , Thopterstill , Marc Tobiasch

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcaninc Island
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Sword of the meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Spell Snare
61
SIDE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Whell of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing needle
3 Firespout
1 Moat
2 Perimeter Captain
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives

What do you think of the addition of Mishra's Factory and Standstill?

[nodahero]

At first glance the addition of Standstill and Factory just seems to really be pushing the deck into a more standstill esq direction and in that case I would suggest merely playing BUG Still instead... Landstill decks need CA not card quality (typically).

[pippo84]

Well, the list isn't mine, but the person that arrived second in a tournament of more than 350 people needs some credit probably..
I wanted some comments..

I will try a list with 3 Jace 2.0, 3/2 Thopter/Sword split and Firespout MD..

[obituary 95]

Instead of standstills why dont we just play dark confidant then you can cut the factorys for a better mana base

[pippo84]

Instead of standstills why dont we just play dark confidant then you can cut the factorys for a better mana base

We have 0 creatures in this deck. If you want to add 4 Dark Confidants they will just be dead.
I was looking for some different way to draw cards, but unfortunately didn't find any..

[JonBarber]

Kyle dorgan played this deck in its early stages with 4 dark confidant to some pretty good success.

[obituary 95]

i have been trying confidants again , and in my testing it has been really good. you dont really care if they stp bob becuse they have to keep in stp after board and they probably have to take out more useful cards

[pippo84]

I will give it a try.. But I'll have to change my SB then.. And my MD also because I'm currently testing with Firespout MD..
Anyone else tried 'spout main?

[bum_man]

@Landstill list: Very interesting list. His list looks loaded. The way I see it, he seemed to aim for versatility. I'm not really sure how he actually plays it out but I believe the standstills and man lands are there to allow you to change gears. With deck being very passive at times, the man lands are there to push the tempo more? He's got results so his deck is legit. Personally I'm not a big fan standstill in decks that are not built to support them. They're awesome in merfolk and landstill, but it doesn't seem right in counter-top thopter. Our deck aims to be aggressive, establish position with counter-top drop bombs like moat, and hopefully find the win before we stall the game too much. In my experience, I'm not really sure if it's just the way I play it or because of the fact that I don't have Jaces yet, but it does have a tendency to stall the game for a long time before winning via combo. I'm pretty sure Jace TMS fixes this problem but I won't be playing with him for some time because of budget constraints.

Edit: I just recently tweaked my list. I tried Bob. He was good but I prefer having firespouts more. From my experience, an early unanswered rush from aggro decks really gives this deck fits. Bob doesn't help against that, while Firespout helps me recover and "come back" in the game to certain extent. I've also tried the landstill list. It did fairly well, especially the factories. But as expected, the list became too cluttered, standstill was relatively useful, but with the low counter count in the deck, standstills often draws you into more spells (Usually excess counter-top pieces, the combo, bombs), that more often than not, won't help you counter the troublesome spell being cast. Standstill often gets you in deep water especially against the more dedicated landstill lists. It was actually good, I much rather prefer running the full counterbalance soft-lock. The deck really suffers without it. And its overkill to play standstill while having an active counter-top soft lock.

@pippo84: I have been playing with firespout main and it has been marginally useful so far. 2 is a very iffy number because you often get them when its too late or when you don't need them or when you don't have access to splashed mana sources, I'll try to find space for a 3rd one for testing but I don't think I'll keep that since I tested against a few match-ups where spout is dead i.e landstill, reliquary rock, new horizons, storm @__@ I rarely get to spout with humility online too. Come think about it I rarely even fetch humility because I usually expend a lot of resources to establish the soft-lock, because I strongly believe this deck really suffers without the soft-lock. I rarely try or even have the resources to fetch humility. For pros out there, am I playing the deck wrong by playing this way?

Edit: I've dumped shackles. It was good, but it often was too slow to make a difference, although it has this tendency to break stalemates against decks that run creatures, I often wanted something like moat that could potentially weather an early rush from my opponents. I decided to replace him with Ensnaring Bridge, and it did very well. Won me a lot more matches. I originally took out Tezzeret for the 4th top, but with the departure of Vedaliken Shackles and without my playset of Jace TMS, I decided to cut the 3rd Thopter Foundry for the Tezerret for the time being, as my 2nd win condition. It's not optimal, but its good enough for the time being. So after some extensive testing, I arrived at my current list which is:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares

2 Firespout

4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Sensei's Divining Top (I'm still in the process of testing the 4th top, It seems like its needed, but I'm still pondering if this deck needs the 4th top more or the 3rd Thopter Foundry)

1 Sword of the Meek

2 Thopter Foundry (Originally 1 Jace, but only 1 Jace seemed sub-optimal, so the slot went to the 4th top for the time being. I'm still testing this slot to see if the 3rd Foundry or 4th Top works better. What do you guys think?)

1 Ensnaring Bridge(Originally Vedalken Shackles, but I have settled with Ensnaring Bridge from now because it keeps you alive and in the game better than shackles. It seems bad to run it along with humility but in any case, you don't play them together anyway. Humiliy is for Zoo primarily, while Ensnaring Bridge is for primarilly Merfolk, Zoo and it works better against Goblins than Humility does to)

1 Pithing Needle

2 Academy Ruins (I've always wanted one in play 80% of the time, makes up for having only 1 EE, and 2 foundries)
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Mountain

1 Tezzeret the Seeker (I don't have Jace, he's proved his slot at least for me, fetched missing combo pieces and lock pieces and I've also won quite a number of games through his ultimate)

[bum_man]

I've noticed that most succesful Thopter lists play Crucible of Worlds to abuse the shuffle effect of fetchlands to look into their decks and find combo pieces faster. I've been testing it and it has been very strong since having the ability to look into more cards in your deck than the opponent has been this decks principle source of card advantage. But it seems in the final form of my deck (the one with 2 Jaces) I may very well be giving up the spouts and possibly go up to 61 cards to support the CoW. To those that play Crucible or have experience in playing Crucible, how good is it in the deck? Is it optimal? And is it worth to go to 61 cards for it? Is it worth cutting the spouts altogether? I'm very iffy in doing since my meta has alot of zoo, merfolk, bant, survival and gobs, and firespout has been good in delaying the game enough for me to have a chance it winning.

Thanks for you inputs!

[jrw1985]

So, Grand Architect...
Tap a Thopter, make a Thopter. Tap a Thopter, make a Thopter. Tap a Thopter, make a Thopter. Tap a Thopter, make a Thopter.
Seems good.

[versus004]

I've tried to post this idea before you... but thopters are 2/2 under Architect, so they don't trigger the sword ability.

[jrw1985]

Shit! I completely missed that! I hate Magic.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone tested out Fabricate at all? It costs more than Enlightened Tutor and is a sorcery and only grab artifacts, but it puts said card into your hand and can be pitched to Force of Will.

[bum_man]

I've tested it. It's reaaaaaly slow... 3 mana tutor is really slow. You rarely have any lands left to cast what you've fetched and/or to use on counterbalance. Having what you tutored for in hand isn't important because, more often than not, whatever it is that you tutored for get stuck in your hand till you untap next turn, leaving you vulnerable to discard, and more importantly leaving you with very little lands to keep counter-top active. Not being an instant sucks, it's less versatile and slow. And not being able to fetch enchantments sucks even more, you lose even more versatility. Enlightened Tutor is strictly superior.

On a side note, I've extensively tested Crucible of World in my deck in exchange for 1 firespout, leaving me at 1 random firespout in the deck. It wasn't bad. Being able to see up to 7 cards each turn is amazing. Being to look at a higher volume of cards in your deck than your opponent is one this decks primary sources of card advantage. This has a pseudo-tutoring effect that really speeds the deck up. I also included a singleton wasteland as an additional lock mechanism. Crucible is never bad. Never a dead draw. It's one more way of messing with your opponents. The fact that it is part of one of the mechanisms that give this deck card advantage is enough reason to play it. I've never had trouble finding my singeton firespout too because of the sheer volume of cards that I was able to see. I'll start testing on aggro archetypes to see if not having the 2nd firespout MD will be a detriment to the deck. The thing that I've noticed with Crucible is besides enabling the wasteland lock and allowing you to potentially see a lot more cards than your opponent, it doesn't really do anything else. It certainly doesn't help you against bad match-ups like Merfolk and Survival. It's because of this reason that I'm going to test Crucible more extensively. I'll also be testing cutting Tezzeret for the Crucible but I doubt I'll stick to it. Tezzeret is really good in this deck, It's won me a lot of games, and I couldn't imagine not having it in my 60 especially without having Jace, TMS.

In connection with the "it doesn't help us against our worst match-ups of Merfolk and Survival" topic, what does help us against these match-ups? These two decks have been dominating our metagame that they need serious sb considerations. And having a bad match-up against these decks doesn't help either. I was thinking of playing 3 needles (1 MD), 2 relic of progenitus, 1 tormod's crypt, and 1 wheel of sun and moon, and 2 ensnaring bridge (1 MD) against them. I'm not really sure if this enough against Madness, especially the graveyard hate. Against Merfolk, I'll probably replace the gy hate with 2/3 Propaganda. I haven't tested against these decks so I don't know what works well against them. The counter-top thread suggests peacekeeper but sadly I don't have those. For those that still play this deck, what generally do you sb in against Merfolk and Survival?

Thanks for your inputs guys!

[DragoFireheart]

Another Janky suggestion, but what about Muddle the Mixture? Gets you any piece of the combo you want or counterbalance. It can't get a lot of other things though, but I thought it would be an interesting suggestion if we wanted more cards that can find the combo pieces that also did other things.

[bum_man]

Another Janky suggestion, but what about Muddle the Mixture? Gets you any piece of the combo you want or counterbalance. It can't get a lot of other things though, but I thought it would be an interesting suggestion if we wanted more cards that can find the combo pieces that also did other things.

Muddle the Mixture is interesting. It obviously doesn't replace counterspell because at UU it's a very very narrow counterspell. The transmute ability could have potential, but costing 3 mana at sorcery speed is very slow, it requires you to have at least 5 mana to transmute and play what you tutored for, leaving you with little to no mana to operate counter-top to protect the combo, yourself or to keep your opponent off resolving relevant spells. And given that the deck has 4 tops, 4 brainstorms, 7-8 fetches, 1 crucible of worlds, 2-3 jaces and 4 enlightened tutors, you get to look at and have access to more cards a turn/the whole game than your opponent that it's as if you were tutoring for cards. Muddle is a slow card and the deck doesn't really need anything more to slow it down, it needs things that either speed you up or let you live long enough. Honestly the core of the deck is generally going to stay as it is until a bomb gets printed (i.e. Jace TMS), the only work that needs to be done on the deck are generally finding the right tutor targets for a specific metagame and finding the right sb cards against the decks worst match-ups as of the moment, merfolk and survival variants.

[DragoFireheart]

How does this deck handle the new U/G Madness deck that has been stomping the Meta with Vengevine, Survival of the Fittest, Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla?

[(nameless one)]

From the playtesting that I've done, mine is 65-35ish.

The only difference from my build to the regular build is I don't run Jace. Rather, I run 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant and 2x Humilty with no Jace 2.0. Mine also has a playset of Swords to Plowshares.

Survival of the Fittest is a must-counter, Pithing Needle and Humility also help especially with Qasali Pridemage and Eternal Witness shenanigans.

[JonBarber]

From the playtesting that I've done, mine is 65-35ish.

The only difference from my build to the regular build is I don't run Jace. Rather, I run 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant and 2x Humilty with no Jace 2.0. Mine also has a playset of Swords to Plowshares.

Survival of the Fittest is a must-counter, Pithing Needle and Humility also help especially with Qasali Pridemage and Eternal Witness shenanigans.

Its still a pretty miserable matchup. You are wayy too slow, and they have kgrips/pridemages for you postboard. No counterbalance decks have a very good matchup vs it, hence why its fallen out of popularity.

[DragoFireheart]

Its still a pretty miserable matchup. You are wayy too slow, and they have kgrips/pridemages for you postboard. No counterbalance decks have a very good matchup vs it, hence why its fallen out of popularity.

But we run a lot of anti-aggro mesaures. Thopter Sword can gain life and chump the Veggies regardless of Wonder. We can run things like Ensnaring Bridge main that will help protect us and still be good in other matchups. I personally don't think this deck is anything worse than 50/50 due to the silver bullets we can run. Even post board if they want to run Pridemage and Grip, we can run so much crap that they'll just waste time blowing up our stuff, buying us time to get something online to stop them.

One question: I plan to tinker this deck for a random/unknown meta. What would be the best picks for the non-core stuff?

[bum_man]

But we run a lot of anti-aggro mesaures. Thopter Sword can gain life and chump the Veggies regardless of Wonder. We can run things like Ensnaring Bridge main that will help protect us and still be good in other matchups. I personally don't think this deck is anything worse than 50/50 due to the silver bullets we can run. Even post board if they want to run Pridemage and Grip, we can run so much crap that they'll just waste time blowing up our stuff, buying us time to get something online to stop them.

It's true that this deck arguably has the most insurmountable defenses against aggro in the format, but the thing is, these defenses take a lot of time of set-up i.e. Being able to cast Ensnaring Bridge with a very low hand-size. Another thing is being able to effectively protect our defensive measures. This deck's primary means of protecting itself is via counter-top. Counter-top itself takes a significant amount of time to set-up and protect especially considering that Madness practically doesn't care about the counter-top lock itself. Having to tutor for answers is also very slow considering that Madness could kill you by turn 4 or 5. Post-board we can board in more defenses and counters to at least have a shot at delaying the game enough that we can effectively set-up our defenses. And even then, they could just grip Bridge and Kill is right then and there. This is probably a tad less than 40% pre and post-board. This is already a very generous estimate, it could possibly become lower or a bit higher once I get more testing against this match-up. I'll be trying a number of cards that could possibly help in the Madness match-up.


One question: I plan to tinker this deck for a random/unknown meta. What would be the best picks for the non-core stuff?
I'd probably pack a main deck needle and crypt/wheel of sun and moon in a big tournament given the high chances of going up against Survival.

[Teown]

What do you think about The abyss? i play 1 on my MD and save me a lot of games when comes into game and hard cbalance countereable in countertop matchs (a lot in my metagame), and other card that im actually testing, Bitterblossom, works really fine and is another win condition because an extirpate hurts this deck really if your only win con is jace.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone thought of splashing black for discard effects to prevent Grip effects from owning us?

[bum_man]

Has anyone thought of splashing black for discard effects to prevent Grip effects from owning us?

I personally haven't had any problems against grip, much less being owned by it. Or maybe its just the way I board that I board a lot more pieces that people eventually need to grip before they can win, like propagandas, needles and ensnaring bridges. I don't play Jace but I assume that this would even be a smaller problem if I had Jace since I would just lock-up the board then Jace them away (which I had already done against zoo and bant in testing). There's really no need to splash black for discard, just play 3 Vendilion Cliques and Karakas and you'll be fine. I have been having problems against Needle though having only 2 answers to needle hurts the deck especially considering that needles are on the rise. Being vulnerable in the early game also makes needle more problematic against this deck as compared to grip. This is based from my experience that is.

[bum_man]

This thread has been inactive for some time. Just to bump it for updates, a version of the deck top 4'd in a large legacy tournament of 114 people (I think). It had the a black splash, it played 3 Innocent bloods along with 4 StPs main. It also played MD Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridges, O-Ring, Shackles, 3 Jaces, 1 Tez and zero FoWs along with 3 CBs and 3 Brainstorms. The sb had 3 Extirpates, 2 Meddling Mages, 2 Spell Pierces, 1 Peacekeeper and singleton silver bullets including Needle, Crypt, Ghostly Prison, and WoG.

What do you guys think? Does anyone still use the deck nowadays? I think the deck can still survive in the Survival infested meta game, maybe building it to become more of a prison shell could do well in a meta full of Vengevine. Thoughts?

Edit: I was actually trying to find where I saw the list. Thanks for the link (nameless one)!

[versus004]

I still use the deck but the list you mentionned could be intersting.

Could you post a link?

[(nameless one)]

I still use the deck but the list you mentionned could be intersting.

Could you post a link?

Here you go:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs471.ash2/74464_172080626139721_112843112063473_649068_1228782_n.jpg

[jcsy]

that must be the best way to post a list, ever

[ivanpei]

No force, only 3 brainstorms, 4 top, 3 counterbalance. I stopped reading after that... Seriously though, I think the only way around grip is to force them to be more "honest" with removal and play tarmogoyf postboard. Forgo the moat/humility-lock Idea and just go4c control after board. This is what I'd play:

MD:

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 STP

3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

3 Jace TMS
2 Thopter foundry
1 Sword of the meek

1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives

9 Fetch
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy ruins
2 Tropical island
2 Volcanic island

SB:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Firespout
2 REB
2 Krosan Grip
1 Aura of Silence
1 Needle
1 Crypt
1 Relic

The plan VS decks with grip is to board out the thopter combo and enlightened tutor. Against Bant, new horizons:

- 2 Thopter, -1 Sword, - 3 enlightened tutor (No cut for moat/bridge, these are still extremely potent vs aggressive blue like bant/new horizons and have to be met with grip, this drags removal away from your countertop combo)
+ 4 Tarmo, + 2 REB.

VS countertop:

- 2 Thopter, -1 Sword, -4 Enlightened tutor, - 1 moat (Bridge is still useful for wrecking progenitus/keeping monsters off your back)
+ 4 Tarmo, + 2 REB, + 2 Grip

VS Zoo:

- 2 Thopter, -1 Sword, - 4 Enlightened tutor, - moat, - bridge ( Moat and bridge can stay in if you dont suspect choke/library)
+ 4 Goyf, + 3 firespout, + 2 Grip (if you see sylvans and chokes, highly likely)

Basically the idea is to transform from enlightened tutor.deck into countertop after board when facing grip. Opponents who board in grave hate + artifact/enchantment hate will get destroyed by an unexpected goyf. Also by boarding out our tutors and combo, we bypass the card disadvantage problem of enlightened tutor that we used to face. Everything opponents throw at us are one for one. Game 3 our opponent may board removal back in and this keeps them honest. This may work IMO.

[obituary 95]

I Have Been Trying A 4/3 Thopter Combo Split Recently, And I Have Been Having Some Success . It Has Allowed Me To Speed Up The Decks Defenses . It Has Also Allowed Me To Not Be As Vulnerable To Cards Such As Grip And Pridemage Because A Lot Of The Time They Will Blow Up A Combo Piece And You Will Just Combo Off The Next Turn.

what do you guys think?

[paK0]

Good, I tried the same and liked it.

I played the deck last IS and scrbbed out, but won all 3 g1 against different Vengevine decks, so the position of the deck is pretty good right now.

After a little more testing I arrived at the following list:

// Lands
3 [U] Tundra
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [R] Tropical Island
5 [IN] Island (4)
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
3 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [WWK] Nature's Claim

The only slot I dislike is the Ascension, I'D like to swap it out for an Artifact based wincon that can be recurred with the Ruins. Anybody got an idea?

[Nidd]

The only slot I dislike is the Ascension, I'D like to swap it out for an Artifact based wincon that can be recurred with the Ruins. Anybody got an idea?
Chimeric Mass might be what you're looking for.

[obituary 95]

what about Cursed Scroll. it was really good

[klaus]

haha namelessone.. i digg your handwriting :-D

[(nameless one)]

haha namelessone.. i digg your handwriting :-D

Unfortunately, that isn't mine. I found that from a tournament report, which was posted on Facebook.

But ya, why is this deck running only 2 Foundries and 1 Sword for the most part? Wouldn't the combo be more consistent if there were more copies? I mean as a Quinn player, you can also use your E-Tutor to tutor for defense.

Also, I think Chrimeric Mass is a good backup.


@ pak0:

Is there a reason why you are not running Super Jace? I personally do not own Jaces and I just given up on buying really expensive singles.

Also on alternative Win-Con:

I used to use Goblin Charbelcher on Super Jace's spot from the old list. I cant say its the best but it did help. It acted as a removal late game and an alternative win con. The problem I have with it is that I didn't really extensively playtested it. Has anyone tried it?

I was also going to try Conundrum Sphinx. It seemed good with Top but its lame under Humility.

[obituary 95]

here is the list i have been playing : it has been doing well . i initally tested mishras factory for a win condition but after a while i disliked it . it mad the mana really clunky

9 [EUL] Island (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tundra
2 [4E] Plains (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [7E] Counterspell
3 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [OV] Cursed Scroll

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [WWK] Dispel

the reason why I am not running jace is that he coasts 4 mana . it does not support the cb lock . and the only match-ups he is relevant in are control matches , and a lot of the control decks are running top making his plus 2 ability useless . he also dies quickly to vv . there are also a lot of needles going around which can just make him even more of a dead card . so in my opinion the risks out number the rewards of playing the card

[paK0]

Charbelcher seems nice, Mass can be plowed, so that is out.

The reason I don't run Jaces is because they suck. I started with 3 and the more I tested the more I disliked them, so I kept cutting until noone was left^^. At the point where you can protect a Jace you are pretty much in for a win, thats why I was looking for a wincon that can be tutored for.

There are quite some Extirpates running around here, so Sword alone won't do it.

[(nameless one)]

Charbelcher seems nice, Mass can be plowed, so that is out.

The reason I don't run Jaces is because they suck. I started with 3 and the more I tested the more I disliked them, so I kept cutting until noone was left^^. At the point where you can protect a Jace you are pretty much in for a win, thats why I was looking for a wincon that can be tutored for.

There are quite some Extirpates running around here, so Sword alone won't do it.

What is your meta geared on? Is it more against aggro/Vengivivals, control or combo?

Also, I noticed that you are not running Moat or Humilty. Is it because of the WW on their cost? Is Ensnaring Bridge good enough? I find that I always have cards in my hand for Ensnaring Bridge. At one point, I was running 2 Humility + 2 Propaganda (because it can be pitched to FoW). Like what I said with my above post, I haven't extensively tested in a while, hence I cannot provide any information if they actually help.

[bum_man]

@Pako: Don't you find having a 4/3 configuration clutters hands especially the 3 swords? How good was FoF and Grips as sb cards?

Has anyone been consistently playing the deck? I 've seen a number of list putting up some results in deckcheck. After some minor tinkering with the deck I arrived at:

Instant

3 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Spell Pierce


Enchantment

3 Counterbalance
1 Humility


Artifacts

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

Lands

2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Steam Vents

Planeswalker


1 Tezzeret the Seeker


I'll be testing this list over the weekend then I'll post some results. Basically, I added Pierces because I needed more counters in the early game and a means to protect counter-top in few early turns. With 4 top, I took 1 brainstorm, I'll be testing if enlightened tutor would be a better cut. Only 3 counterbalance because counterbalance is weak in my meta full of survival, rock, vial gobs and merfolk. I added the 3rd foundry to compensate for the lack of my formerly 2 MD spouts against aggro. I MD'd 2 Needles because they are really good right now. Tez was supposed to be a secondary win-con because I don't have Jaces yet. I think he's going to be good in my list since I'm planning to build my deck around a more prison-ish shell.

Just post constructive comments and I'll add more observations in a while when I wake up since its 3am here where I am.

[obituary 95]

yes i have also noticed that the deck has also been putting up numbers in recent tournaments, but you must also realize that these tournaments are in Europe where storm rules .

getting excess thopter pieces in hand is not really a issue , a lot of the time you wont get the excess pieces because of brainstorm and sensis diving top.

[paK0]

@nameless: A crapload of Vengevines, after that a lot of Storm and CB on the rise. That and your occasional tribal stuff (mostly Goblins and Folk)

Bridge really fulfills its role of stopping creatures, so Moat/Humility is not needed. but I could see myself running some if the Vengevines become Nacatls again.

@bum: It only really sucks when you draw the same piece twice without having the other one. But if one "combo" stuck you are in pretty good shape anyway, so drawing multiples then usually doesn't matter.

Grips are a meta call, like I said, the number of CB decks is going up and I don't wanna be on the wrong side of the lock.

FoF is amazing against U based control (which rarely shows up^^) but I like having some. Landstill never really dies and FoF is really great there.


I also played my first games with Charbelcher and I have to say that on first impression I like him. Being cc4 is a nice bonus, hardcast VVs are always annoying. I'm not 100% sold, but I'm confident.