[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[ivanpei]

Storm combo will be very popular due to survival so UWg thopthers is my current meta deck of choice. Bridge-> Survival. Thopters murders storm combo too. Its also excellent vs fast aggro. SB I'm playing tarmogoyf plan to dodge all the damn needles and grips floating around.

Goyfs in board have been working for me. Everyone boards out removal. Never cut brainstorm. It is the BEST card in anything blue. I've gone down to the 2/1 split because the combo sucks against blue and survival. Having lots of components means u draw the components early but if one thopther gets countered/destroyed u get stuck with a (or 2) useless sword(s). It's card disadvantage. Against decks without artifact/ enchantment hate like gobbos/ folk, landing moat/bridge is GG anyway. You're main concern is dealing with opposing blue decks and stuff like md pridemage.

That's where having 3 spell snares and 2 counterspells are useful. Jace is also the bomb in the blue mirror, also once you have the lock down, he is a win condition/ prevents opponents drawing grip/ pridemage. I've cut red from my list for mana stability and am playing the 22nd land. Lots of wastelands running around esp in survival.

[grahf]

I've updated the opening post of this thread with a primer that Pippo84 sent me months ago. Sorry for not posting it earlier, dude, I kinda fell off the face of the earth for a bit and lost interest in magic for a while. But I'm back now.

Is this deck still even relevant? I hope so. What we still really need to complete the primer are objective matchup analyses written by competent players (i.e. not me).

[ivanpei]

Nice job on the primer! Credit goes out to pippo too! I would have to say that I have tested this deck a fair bit and have a few conclusions:

Pros:

-Awesome against anything aggro. Sticking moat/bridge= GG, alternatively, humility/firespouts also destroy aggro.
-Very versatile. Having 4 tutors allow sideboard cards to be diverse yet able to be searched out consistently by enlightened tutor.
-Virtual CA in having no dudes, dead STPs are golden.
-Countertop/Jace are robust CA engines that make the deck pretty formidable in the blue/control mirror PREBOARD (will cover this in cons)
-Great vs storm combo, countertop + 4 tutors? Excellent. Lack of clock is an issue, but usually with limited MD answers to countertop preboard, you should be ok.
-Munches venges with ensnaring bridge against UG. Against WG, answering survival and dropping ensnaring bridge is also pretty easy.
-Can run high amount of basics.

Cons:
-SUCKS against grip/counters/duress/relevant cards postboard. Enlightened tutor is auto card disadvantage. The thopther combo is also terrible if the other component gets answered.
-Landstill rapes you like a bitch with deed/more jaces/ more counters/ laughs at your moat and bridge.
-Slow as a turtle in winning. Can go to time very often. Drawing is annoyingly common.


I address the weaknesses by playing the 2/1 split and more counterspells (snare) and jaces (3) MD for more CA, sacrificing a little bit in the aggro MU where you are already very strong. I then play this board:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

I like the man plan board and just 3 colours as you are more stable with your mana though I miss REB and firespouts at times. I also almost always board out the enlightened tutors (and crap bullets) and thopther combo for the man plan. Sure this does not turn off my opponents anti-enchantment/artifact cards which can still hit top and balance but thats fine. Those are 1 for 1 trades that are not as disastrous as popping a lock piece (which you tutored for and are dependent on) EOT with grip and alpha striking. Also top and balance are excellent cards even when stand alone without the other. Removal will definitely be going out for components so a quick goyf may catch opponents off guard and win you games. Man plan also quickens your clock if you lost G1. Without the man plan, if you lose G1, you are unlikely to win G2 and G3 in time. Cheers!

[mulder]

I was wondering if Thirst for Knowledge would be worth a try.
It fills up the 3 mana gap, generates card advantage and cycles excess Tops and Counterbalances.

And isn't Spell Snare better than Counterspell? I think you need a first turn counter against Goyfs, Pridemages, Confidants, Survivals, ... . Plus, on your turn two you'll probably want to cast a Counterbalance.

[ivanpei]

TFK was tried and cut I believe. 3 Mana to dig 3 cards and generate CA 50% of the time is not good enough.

@ Snare vs counterspell. They both do different things. Snare is a great card, but I will run max 3, sometimes you draw multiples when you're opponents bombs are not 2cc like natural order, jace, show and tell, ad nauseum etc. Having a split is therefore a wiser idea. I've been playing a 2-2 split for the longest time, but now I'm playing 3 snares, 2 counterspells due to survival seeing a lot of play and the format speeding up in order to adapt to survival.

[rooneg]

Played this at a small tournament today. Thought I'd leave a report for the curious. First the decklist:

4 Counterbalance
4 Divining Top
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

23 land (w/ two tropicals and 1 volcanic for firespout and goyf in the board)

Sideboard was:

4 Goyf
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle

When I say small, I mean small. 14 people, so 4 rounds of swiss and cut to top 4. Maybe half the decks were real legacy decks, half jank people had lying around.

match 1 - 80 card vampires jank

I'm pretty sure this was his first tournament of any kind. Stabilized quickly in both games (with Firespout assistance in game 2) and got there with Elspeth.

match 2 - aggro elves

Won 2-1. Took the first game with a flying Elspeth token after countering and swordsing a bunch of elves. He rolled right over me in the second (didn't draw any of the three Firespouts). Got the Firespout in game 3 and Jace's ultimate finished him.

match 3 - G/W vengvine survival

This was my friend Sam, who was actually loaning me the two Jaces I was using. He took both games in short order, I have no idea how to beat this deck, vengvine is just too good.

match 4 - burn

Went 2-1, these were the only games in which I actually assembled the thopter/swords combo, life gain plus lots of little flyers is good against burn.

Cut to top 4...

match 5 - G/W vengvine survival

Sam again. A repeat of match 3. Still haven't figured out how to beat this. Maybe the DCI will solve the problem for me.

I ended up in 4th, $25 bucks for my trouble (minus the $10 entry fee, of course). I now have a perfect 2 and 0 record at this shop, every time I play there I make the cut to the elimination rounds and then lose to Sam ;-)

Some conclusions:

4 Planeswalkers is probably too many. Next time I'll play 2 or 3. Oddly I liked Elspeth better than Jace most of the time. Back to Basics maindeck wound hopefully be better in a more developed metagame. As it was I wish I'd put the oblivion ring in that slot. The transformational sideboard was a total waste, the plan was to put in Goyfs if the opponent was likely siding out removal, but I never actually had that happen.

[The Treefolk Master]

Sam again. A repeat of match 3. Still haven't figured out how to beat this. Maybe the DCI will solve the problem for me.
.

Play peacekeeper, it auto wins if you can protect it from removal against versions running white, and against UG is an auto win.

[ivanpei]

Hmm, how exactly did he beat you? I don't think it's that hard of a MU. I find that countertop thopthers is actually one of the better decks against veges. I play moat though and 3 Jaces along side bridge. I usually look for bridge G1 and it just wrecks them. My G1 strategy is to ignore his creatures. Build up protection for the bridge (either with countertop/force) and tutor for the bridge. You can drop a snare here or a swords there to slow his clock. Once you drop bridge, protect it (no grips G1 and you play a ton of counters) and win with Jace/ thopther.

G2 is slightly more tricky. I play with goyfs from the board too and war monks. I also have paths in the board instead of firespouts (I play UWg) so I have a good MU vs veges. Save you're exile effects for the veges and just wall of goyf/ goyf stomp them out of the game while keeping survival off the board. You're cards outclass their pound for pound and you should win it if played right. Hope this helps! My list for reference:

MD
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Enlightened
4 STP
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Moat
1 Bridge
1 EE
2 Thopther
1 Sword
3 Jace TMS

4 Strand
4 Misty
1 Heath
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy
5 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

Boarding plan vs survival:
- 4 Tutors
- 2 Thopter
- 1 Sword
- 1 Moat
- 1 Bridge
- 4 Balance

+ 4 Tarmo
+ 2 Rhox
+ 2 Path
+ 2 Pierce
+ 1 Needle
+ 2 Grip

Their grips will be targeting tops mostly as that's the only thing to hit. You should have squeezed a couple of activations out of top already to make it worth while. They're investing 3 mana to wreck a 1 mana artifact too, so its beneficial to you if they grip it. Basically just counter/shoot everything down, drop a fatty and pound their ass into dust old school. All you're cards are active (no dead combo components, card disadvantage from tutors etc) AND you have 3 Jaces so you will come out on top in the card advantage slugfest. They're stuck with basking rootwallas, wild mongrels and terribad cards while you have quality threats and answers. WG is harder but you should be able to fight them pound for pound. Saving the swords/path is crucial. Only use them for KOTRs/venges if you can.

[ivanpei]

Hmm, how exactly did he beat you? I don't think it's that hard of a MU. I find that countertop thopthers is actually one of the better decks against veges. I play moat though and 3 Jaces along side bridge. I usually look for bridge G1 and it just wrecks them. My G1 strategy is to ignore his creatures. Build up protection for the bridge (either with countertop/force) and tutor for the bridge. You can drop a snare here or a swords there to slow his clock. Once you drop bridge, protect it (no grips G1 and you play a ton of counters) and win with Jace/ thopther.

G2 is slightly more tricky. I play with goyfs from the board too and war monks. I also have paths in the board instead of firespouts (I play UWg) so I have a good MU vs veges. Save you're exile effects for the veges and just wall of goyf/ goyf stomp them out of the game while keeping survival off the board. You're cards outclass their pound for pound and you should win it if played right. Hope this helps! My list for reference:

MD
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Enlightened
4 STP
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Moat
1 Bridge
1 EE
2 Thopther
1 Sword
3 Jace TMS

4 Strand
4 Misty
1 Heath
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy
5 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

Boarding plan vs survival:
- 4 Tutors
- 2 Thopter
- 1 Sword
- 1 Moat
- 1 Bridge
- 4 Balance

+ 4 Tarmo
+ 2 Rhox
+ 2 Path
+ 2 Pierce
+ 1 Needle
+ 2 Grip

Their grips will be targeting tops mostly as that's the only thing to hit. You should have squeezed a couple of activations out of top already to make it worth while. They're investing 3 mana to wreck a 1 mana artifact too, so its beneficial to you if they grip it. Basically just counter/shoot everything down, drop a fatty and pound their ass into dust old school. All you're cards are active (no dead combo components, card disadvantage from tutors etc) AND you have 3 Jaces so you will come out on top in the card advantage slugfest. They're stuck with basking rootwallas, wild mongrels and terribad cards while you have quality threats and answers. WG is harder but you should be able to fight them pound for pound. Saving the swords/path is crucial. Only use them for KOTRs/venges if you can.

[(nameless one)]

I wanna put this deck back together but I have limited budget. I have most of the cards (from FoW to Strands) except for Super Jace, Moat and Duals. I have substituted Tundras with basic lands (heavily relying on fetchlands, running 9) and Moat with Humilty/Ensaring Bridge

What is a good alternative/substitute for Super Jace? I recently got 2 Elspeth vs. Tezzeret DDs. Would they be a good alternative or would that screw the curve? I was also thinking of using Goblin Charbelcher on its place as a means of win condition/creature removal.

Any suggestions?

[obituary 95]

elspeths are goood alt win cons. i would avoid belcher though it just seems bad

[Mana Drain]

With Survival out of the meta, I think this deck is going to become a serious force.
My current list with my SB still shaky due to the unknown meta ahead (my prediction is heavy aggro, some CB, and some Storm as the main opposition):

4 Strand
3 Tarn
2 Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Academy Ruins
3 Island
1 Plains

4 BS
4 Force
4 CB
4 Top
4 Tutor
4 Swords
3 Big Blue Boss Man
3 Daze (I like it more than Predict for early game interactivity, but Predict is a perfectly acceptable choice also)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword
1 Shackles
1 EE
1 Crucible
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
2 Grips
1 Oring
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Prog
1 Needle
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Vendilion Clique (MVP against anything not-aggro)

Pretty standard, although I don't see many lists with Daze. I've found it invaluable against other CB decks, Zoo, Merfolk, and Storm. I mean really, turns 1-3 it's a free counterspell. It gives you the extra "push" to force through an important spell in the early-game, and is a blue two-drop. I don't feel this deck needs a "draw engine" like Predict, off of the sheer fact that this deck is inherently full of card disadvantage, and no card can make up for that. So I'd rather make sure my important spells resolve (like CB and Jace), rather than try and draw 2.

Also, Clique in the board has been straight hotness. A preemptive answer to Grip/Extirpate, peeks at their hand, a clock (albeit a slow one), another 3 drop for the curve, and randomly trades with a dude once in a while. I highly suggest a pair in the board for anyone who is worring about Grip. Not an answer, but it will always take the best thing they have in the hand.

[JonBarber]

3 Daze (I like it more than Predict for early game interactivity, but Predict is a perfectly acceptable choice also)

Pretty standard, although I don't see many lists with Daze. I've found it invaluable against other CB decks, Zoo, Merfolk, and Storm. I mean really, turns 1-3 it's a free counterspell. It gives you the extra "push" to force through an important spell in the early-game, and is a blue two-drop.

Definitely disagree with this. I think this should be counterspell. This deck is in no way a tempo deck, and your land drops are extremely important. Besides, this deck is all about the late game. Daze is terrible after turn 3, especially when your doing nothing to their mana base. Counterspell is hard counter that never stops being good.

[say no to scurvy]

how viable is this without moat? i've been searching a while and found an italian list that top4ed a 31-man tourney



4 x flooded strand
4 x scalding tarn
4 x island
1 x plain
1 x mountain
3 x tundra
2 x volcanic island
1 x tropical island
1 x academy ruins
1 x seat of the synod
2 x vendilion clique
4 x sensei's divining top
4 x counterbalance
2 x spell snare
4 x swords to plowshares
2 x firespout
1 x oblivion ring
1 x vedalken shackles
2 x jace the mind sculptor
2 x thopter foundry
1 x sword of the meek
4 x brainstorm
3 x enlightened tutor

SIDE:
2 x sower of temptation
2 x red elemental blast
1 x pyroblast
1 x firespout
2 x spell pierce
1 x tormod's crypt
1 x engineered explosives
1 x pithing needle
2 x relic of progenitus
1 x ethersworn canonist
1 x humility

[Frid]

I posted in the countertop thread some days ago, didn't know even there was a specific one for countertop thopters. I'll just copy paste:


I won a 35 man tournament with the following list I've been performing during the last month:


// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
7 [B] Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip


It's a new focus for thopters in legacy, using as the core of the deck 4 intuitions, instead of the typical disadvantage enlightened tutors that have been used in thopters decks during the past year. The list has a plenty of tricks/cards interactions (ITF style), and a really solid manabase. If anyone is interested in my card choices/deck strategies/whatever I would be glad to discuss about it. I have done a report but it's in spanish, you can use google translator if you want and if something remains unclear just ask about it: http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3735
Greetz

[ivanpei]

I like this list. I find it interesting. I'll do a bit of Enlightened vs intuition pro and cons.

Enlightened Pros and Cons:
- Enlightened fetches 1-offs like moat, pithing needle, engineered explosives and ensnaring bridge, which intuition cannot do. This is inherently powerful.
- Enlightened is much cheaper to cast but has built in card disadvantage.
- Enlightened tutor is very strong with counterbalance because it stacks cards on top beautifully and can be used later in the game as somewhat of a counterspell.

Intuition Pros and Cons:
- No card disadvantage. Looks for non-enchantments and artifacts specifically FOW in a bind or life from the loam for an alternate engine.
- Slow as hell. I play intuition countertop and I run 2, I can't imagine running 4.
- Intuition works with less than 3 sword of the meek by tutoring cheap artifacts in the pile. Even if they give you the cheap artifact, just cast it and sac it to thopther, getting sword back anyway.

Interesting but ultimately IMO, intuition is better against slower control matchups when the card disadvantage of enlightened hurts but in other MUs, you want enlightened because it is quicker and can look for silver bullets effectively. I've been addressing the CA problem of enlightened by siding them out totally for goyfs and other good cards in the board for the control matchup. This is an interesting take on countertop thopthers but I think you forgot that playing intuition also makes your deck extremely vulnerable to grave hate. Both your loam engine and thopther combo have trouble against any form of gravehate. You will be very likely to be blown out by it after board. My 2 cents.

[Frid]

My version is neither graveyard nor intuition dependant, because it was built with that intention. I run as few "utilities" for loam as I can, and the ones I run are excellent cards on their own, like maze of ith, vedalken shackles, explosives, dust bowl... And you can easilly play around graveyard hate having 2 sword of the meek, and saving loam from being removed with brainstorms and tops. And of course you can just avoid playing around graveyard, because the deck isn't graveyard dependant at all, it uses the graveyard as an useful tool to win matches by tutoring and recurring lands and artifacts but it does not rely on it in every match if you don't want. See how I played 4 relics in my sb with no problem.
Speaking about relic of progenitus, it's a card that gives them their card back, but I love when people side in crap like tormod's crypt or extirpate against me, because it's like they're playing the round with one card less ;).
Nearly in every round I faced graveyard hate, when it was relic I just had to adapt a bit my gameplan until my opponent saw the relic was doing nothing and cracked it, and when it was tormod's crypt or extirpate it was like my opponent was playing with one extra mulligan. Cards that hurt much more the strategy of the deck are cheap hard counters that make you very hard to win counterwars, like pyroblast, dispel or even spell pierce.
It's true that aggro decks are the harder ones to beat, but tutorable peacekeepers solve completely the problem against merfolk, with should be terrible easy post sb, and I'm working on a tech to beat goblins and zoo post sb, as the match is 50-50 preboard but with my actual sb postboard it gets better for them.

[Cenarius]

Let me present my take on Countertop Thopter UWR. I’m a Threshold-player from origin, playing Tempo Threshold for a long time now. Before that I played Countertop (or Threshold as it was called back then).

I believe this deck is insane. This is how control should look like in 2010/2011. Landstill isn't viable anymore with an abundance of Vial-decks in the metagame. This deck is all about card quality, even so that card disadvantage (in the form of Enlightened Tutor) deals no damage to the deck. But heck, we all knew that already. So, let me proceed with an actual decklist.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell / Spell Pierce (Counterspell is slightly the favorite here)
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Firespout

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Moat

2 Open slot: currently 1 Ensnaring Bridge, can be Shackles aswell but I found that to be not as good as I hoped. I usually just go Enlightened Tutor to Moat in (nearly) all creature matchups. Ensnaring Bridge and Shackles are therefore not really needed, in my opinion. The other open slot is Firespout. Oblivion Ring might be good aswell, here.

4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard

Combo Matchups
3 Spell Pierce (+ control matchups)
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Agro Matchups
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle

Control matchups
1 Blood moon
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
(3 Spell Pierce)

Graveyard dependent Matchups
2 Relic of Progenitus

General Sideboard Swaps
2 Elspeth, Knight errant (alternative kill-condition postboard)

My metagame consist of skilled combo players, tribal, rock, tempo and diversified tier 2 and 3 decks. In other words I expect everything, but control. Control is pretty much dead here and I want it to start walking again.

So now, probably some questions occur to you guys?

1. Why 3 Sensei’s Divining Top and not 4?
2. Why 3 Enlightened Tutor and not 4?
3. Why sideboard cards for Combo, while we already have a good combo matchup?
4. What’s so different about the deck and why precisely do you want to write a post?

Questions 1 and 2 are pretty much from personal experiences. I never, ever liked 4 Sensei’s Divining Top. Therefore I do not want to play 4 Sensei’s Divining Top. Sensei’s Divining Top is probably the best card in Legacy, and it sure is the best card in this deck (just above Jace and Moat IMO). I want Sensei’s Divining Top in every game, because it creates an unfair amount of Card Quality. However, I do not want multiple Sensei’s Divining Top. Almost every game I playtest with 4 Sensei’s Divining Top leads to either 2 Sensei’s Divining Top in my Opening Hand or me drawing nearly every copy in the entire game. I therefore play 3 Sensei’s Divining Top, it’s my magical number.
So why play 3 Enlightened Tutor? Well as I explained above, 3 is my magical number. That counts for Enlightened Tutor aswell. Enlightened Tutor is a great search engine, but I do not want to be totally dependent on it (That’s one of the reasons why I play 3 Firespout in my Mainboard). I believe that 3 Enlightened Tutor is the magical number for me.

Question 3 is pretty much metagame dependent. I have skilled combo players in my team and therefore in my metagame. If u do not have skilled combo players in your team/metagame, your mainboard will be enough to stop your combo players.

Question 4 can be answered by Firespout and Pyroclasm in the sideboard. This deck is metagame dependent, designated to slaughter tribal and combo. Your mainboard should be enough to win from Agro-control decks. About the rest: I don’t care. Let them come…
So why do I want to write a post about the deck? My first sentence depicts my idea about this deck. This deck is insane. It has a stable manabase, it plays the strongest cards in legacy (Top, Moat, Jace and Brainstorm) and it’s a blast to play it.

I’m not finished, yet.
I have some statements/questions concerning this deck:
1. I’m not sure about the correct number of Thopther/Meek. I played the 3/2 split for just a few games, I’m now playing 2/1 for quite a while now. While playing numerous games it occurs to me that fast Thopther/Meek hands tend to end game fast. Is a 3/2 split or 3/1 split a good idea for the deck, to speed things up? On the other hand, why do we want to speed things up? Our mainboard is pretty good and can handle about anything.
2. What are your experiences with Ensnaring Bridge? It’s been (so far) better than Shackles, though both cards have different strategies ofcourse. Sometimes the card is good, but sometimes the card is just plain bad.
3. I’m thinking about adding a Tropical Island to the Mainboard for my Firespout. I’ve faced several games where I wanted my manabase to offer green for Firespout aswell. On the other hand my manabase will become (slightly) weaker by it.

[ivanpei]

Some of my thoughts:

1. I played 3/2 from the beginning. It ends games fast and I loved it. You want to finish matches in time and having more thopthers/swords were good. This is a notoriously slow deck, and unless you play really fast, killing quickly is good. The problem with this deck is that you will face grips in the board and that usually blows you out G2 and G3. There is (almost) nothing you can do about grip on moat/bridge eot into the alpha strike.

This has really put me off playing this deck for a while until I've decided to go transformational into goyfs and warmonks post board. And when you go transformational, you don't want to put too many combo components in the MD. Thats my view on it, but others have claimed that a 2/1 split is enough because you hate the combo against control. Your first component will stick, and they will always counter the 2nd component. You are then left sitting there with a dead card in play. Basically more components are good vs aggro, not so good vs control.

2. I love ensnaring bridge. You don't always have 4 mana to play moat or double white. IMO bridge -> shackles. It comes down quickly and stops decks in their tracks. Sometimes bridge isn't great against goblins due to their vials dropping uncounterable dudes while your counterspells sit in your hand, but those are acceptable risks. Bridge is a blow out vs decks with big dudes like zoo and folk. It's so much easier to cast when you are facing wastelands and dazes or facing a board that will put you in burn range (moat is sometimes too slow vs zoo).

3. I haven't really played with firespouts main because moat/bridge have been locking stuff up for me well in the MD. I don't have much problems vs aggro, its the control MU that I'm having trouble with where the card disadvantage of tutor and the dead combo components hurt. However the trop may be useful. Random faeries can show up and trygon predators are going to get popular due to Green Sun's Zenith being able to tutor for them now. You might also see death and taxes with serra avengers and flickerwisps.

My 2 cents, Cheers!

[grahf]

On Intution: Earlier in this deck's development, I overlooked Intuition in favor of Gifts Ungiven because Intuition doesn't give you both pieces of the combo in hand like a Gifts pile can. Probably an error in retrospect, as Gifts ended up being slow as molasses. But I'm still curious, if you would have the urge to Intution for Foundry, Sword, Ruins... (which would be useless as you'd get Sword in hand, and what then?)

On the number of Thopter/Swords: I've been playing 3/1, and I like it. The idea being that I can draw/filter into Foundry, then tutor for the Sword. Sometimes rushing for the combo feels like the right thing to do. So much so I might experiment with 4 Foundries and a few Chrome Moxen, and see where that leads.

On planeswalkers: Thoughts on the new Tezzeret? Like Jace, he's card advantage, board control, and a win condition all in one card. I see potential he might require a few more artifacts to filter into.

[Frid]

Well, intuition does not provide the full combo, but that's no problem really. Depending on the game state you will intuition for different cards, and many times you will have already one of the four cards you need to combo off in hand or on the board. In any case, I think the most uncommon intuition piles I use to do are the ones with just combo pieces: Against aggro and aggrocontrol your first intuition goes for any combination of loam+ruins+explosives+shackles+maze, against control loam+dust bowl+ruins+sword+top, against combo 3x counterspell or 3x fow... Unless you have one piece of the combo already in hand, your first intuition should give you a good position on the board simply. Winning the game is for the second one, or most of the time you won't even need to intuition another time just to win because in the meantime you've drawn already the combo or a jace. Remember what I said some posts above: intuition in this deck is just an useful tool but nothing else, you don't need to resolve an intuition in evey game to win. The deck is not intuition nor graveyard dependant, cards like maze of ith, dust bowl, shackles, explosives... are excellent cards on their own. Obviously it's better if you can recur them, but they don't rely on this. Much like I'ts the Fear, another similar deck to this one that I've succesfully played during many months in the past

[DragoFireheart]

Is it worth main-decking Tarmogoyf with the thopter sword combo? It turns on their removal but gives us Goyf!

Also, if I don't have a few hundred dollars to blow on Moat, is Humility acceptable?

[grahf]

Humility works just fine, I use it myself, though it does bring its own set of pros and cons. You could also just go without a 2WW enchantment and lean a little bit more on Shackles and Ensnaring Bridge. Humility + Bridge is a nonbo however... I've been thinking, running Porphyry Nodes could reduce the size of the horde sitting across from whatever army-stopping card you go with, so you wouldn't get blown out by Grip quite as bad.

[versus004]

After testing Porphyry Nodes, I think the card is too slow. Without Humility, Nodes are almost useless and with, is overkill or underploited.

[DragoFireheart]

Krosan Grip:

What are some ways we can stop this card from ruining our day? I propose the following ways to deal with Grip:

Hanna's Custody

+ Protects the combo.
+ Must be killed before the combo can be hit.
+ Can be tutored for.
- Can still be answered by Grip or pridemage.
- Doesn't protect Counterbalance.

Meddling Mage

+ Prevents Grip from being cast at all.
+ Requires removal to kill, which the opponent likely removed.
+ Can answer other cards.
+ Can be pitched to force.
- Can't be tutored.
- Dies to lots of removal [Bad vs Zoo].



Any other suggestions?

[Frid]

Running intuition solves completely the grip "problem" (it isn't a problem at all, it's just a 1x1) by tutoring ruins and loam and therefore recurring any artifact you may need (again). And that way you don't need to run bad cards like the ones you named or the like.

[DragoFireheart]

Would I run Intuition in the board or main decked?

[Tammit67]

Some of the better cards are enchantments however, and it is a problem when you get alpha-striked

[grahf]

@versus: thanks for the advice about nodes, I don't get a chance to test much.

I think it's wise for this deck to have a backup plan if the Thopter plan doesn't work out for whatever reason, be it Grip, Needle, or just not drawing the pieces. If finishing matches on time is a problem, I'd play more planeswalkers, going up to 4-5 Jace+Elspeth. A wincon that was tutorable and recurable would be nice too. Chimeric Mass was actually suggested... I'm dubious but hey maybe it's just the thing.

Hanna's Custody might be almost good if it shrouded enchantments too. It's an old card, so it's due for a power creep update right...?

@Frid, I'm intruiged your advocacy of Intuition as the main tutor for this deck. You've put forth some convincing arguments for its use, and it may indeed be that that's the way forward for Thopters. I haven't tested your version but certainly the casting cost difference in the tutors will make a difference in how the deck can is played. Neither better nor worse, in that regard, just different; you'll do other things besides tutoring in the early turns. I also see that you run neither Humility nor Moat. A clever way to avoid getting into the situation of losing your seemingly impenetrable wall, not having one in the first place.

[Frid]

You don't need enchantments at all in this deck apart from counterbalance, and many times it is better to do so especially post sb.

[Morgothian]

how viable is this without moat? i've been searching a while and found an italian list that top4ed a 31-man tourney



4 x flooded strand
4 x scalding tarn
4 x island
1 x plain
1 x mountain
3 x tundra
2 x volcanic island
1 x tropical island
1 x academy ruins
1 x seat of the synod
2 x vendilion clique
4 x sensei's divining top
4 x counterbalance
2 x spell snare
4 x swords to plowshares
2 x firespout
1 x oblivion ring
1 x vedalken shackles
2 x jace the mind sculptor
2 x thopter foundry
1 x sword of the meek
4 x brainstorm
3 x enlightened tutor

SIDE:
2 x sower of temptation
2 x red elemental blast
1 x pyroblast
1 x firespout
2 x spell pierce
1 x tormod's crypt
1 x engineered explosives
1 x pithing needle
2 x relic of progenitus
1 x ethersworn canonist
1 x humility


I played this list last week and scored 2nd, I splitted in the finalas with Ichorid and gave him the victory.

The deck is strong, and will be definitely the tier1 control deck in Legacy, but we have to adapt it to the new meta. Countertop decks are spreading out in verious ways (Baseruption, Supreme Blue, Thopter) and the field response is anti-balance decks (Goblin, Merfolk and Maverick GW) and some combos (Ichorid, Sneak&Show and so on).

The Counterbalance curve must be set well, with 5-6 cc3 drops, and we have to fully exploit our bomb-tutor with at least one artifact/enchantment drop for every casting cost, including 4 (tutoring moat/humility to counterbalance an opponent Jace IS a good play). Firespout/Ensaring bridge/Vedalkenb Shackles are also good ways to slow fast aggro 'til the time we set the combo.

I think we have to concentrate on the other Counterbalance decks: since that the first who resolves Top+Balance gains the quasi-win, and since they play Daze so they can go Countertop with maybe double protection, we have to react properly:

-Spell snare is necessary to avoid too many losses from mirrors; although Counterspell is good, it is not enough, so a 2-3 spell snares heklp us against Counterbalance and also Goyf, Confidant, a bunch of Merfolks and some other sad cards like Infernal Tutor, Qasali Pridemage and so on.

-Repeal is a bomb against Vial Decks, we enter CounterTop and then repeal they're vial, and suddenly we're closer to the victory. Unfortunately this is a not tutorable card and the space in the deck is very scarce...maybe Pithing Needle is a better move.

-Jace Beleren is a cc3 drop that's nuts against control and is very very useful to remove an opponent's Jace, TMS. I've added a couple in sideboard against such decks.

[Tammit67]

You don't need enchantments at all in this deck apart from counterbalance, and many times it is better to do so especially post sb.

Counterbalance is very much essential in most matchups, along with O-ring, and moat/humility. Post board, yeah, more artifacts, but they can still tempo you with grip despite you being able to recur Artifact X

[bokepa]

This is what im testing in MWS to use thopther with new Tezz:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel

3 Trinket Make

Control and manipulation
4 Force of Will
4 CounterBalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Life from the loam
1 Enlightened Tutor

Win conditions
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
1 Vedalken Shakles
3 Tezzeret

Utility and silver bullets
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihilit Spellbomb
1 Executioners Capsule
1 Dispellers Capsule
1 EE

The deck has 3 different win conditions: painting, thopther-sword, tezzeret himself while also having the cb lock and a lot of ways to find its key cards.

The deck is slow but if you survive early turns is very hard to beat it as you have answers to almost anything. Is very adaptable to anymeta as the silver bullets can change depending of what you expect but this are the more generalistic i've found. One important thing when doing the sivler bullet package is use bullets that are never dead or they cantrip.

You can also ignore the silver bullets part and go straight combo wich will make you faster but more vulnerable:
-5 silvers -1 Vedalken (never get out Bridge)
+2 Grindstone
+2 Painter Servant
+1 Sword of the meek
+1 Thopther Foundry
Maybe we can go full combo main and use all the silvers in the side, i have to test this more.

When playing the deck i would advise you to not use tezz with your win conditions unless you must have to as you dont have many and they need another especific card to win, being vulnerable to stop its no good. Lands or silver bullets are the best targets.

The majority of games you will won it on the spot with painters or do some tokens then ultimate tezz. You will find that you will need to use the 5/5 to block until you find a Bridge or a Shackles. the games where you can go agroo with 5/5 are rare.

With 3 trinkets and 1 ET, 4 Bs and 3 intuition you can establish any of the combos fast, just be sure you have ways to protect them or you can just win. Its almost always better to establish countertop and then go slowly for the win condition.

Pithing needle is main for a reason, use it wisely.

Cards that hurt you are trygon, qasali, krosan, aura of silence, serenity, leyline of sanctity, extirpate. The good thing is you have ansers for them all.

Sb is still in work but it will be something transformational like:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyrexian Reworker (or whatever is called pithing on legs)
3 Master of Etherium
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Meekstone
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Leyline of Sanctity

[Morgothian]

You have no counters except for Force of will, so statistically you lose to enemy countertops which run dazes or Snares.

You have no spot removals, so you can easily lose to a single T1 wild Nacatl while you lose time to find a proper solution.

The deck tries to do a lot of things, and do all of them bad. try to build a solid shell and decide the main winning conditions...in a countertop shell you cannot put a bunch of powerful cards just because they're good, you need to be a control deck that, when is finally in total control, drops his win-con and closes the game.

[DragoFireheart]

What decks is CounterTop thopter best suited to fight? I know from testing it's amazing against combo due to having 8 Counterbalances ala Enlightened Tutor, but how does it fair VS Zoo, tribal and control decks? I'd imagine that due to the card disadvantage of the tutor and Force of Will that this decks weakness is dedicated control decks.

[Frid]

I'd imagine that due to the card disadvantage of the tutor and Force of Will that this decks weakness is dedicated control decks.
That's one of the main reasons I vastly prefer intuition over enlightened tutor. Your pairing against aggro might be a bit weaker but your pairing against aggrocontrol and other control decks is MUCH better.

[brattin]

I really like Frid's recent lists with Intuition, but I also have been looking for a deck to run *old* Tezz. Has this been tried? I was thinking this deck might be a good home for him, because you're already running some artifact lands to abuse his + ability, and you can use him to search out combo pieces or ensnaring bridge, and this deck has a mana sink so his + ability isn't entirely useless late game (whereas most artifact mana accel decks I try to put him in eventually get to the "too much mana and nothing to do with it" phase). And when people board in grips, he can be an alternate win condition.

Probably win more, right?

I'm just curious if anyone has tested him.

[Frid]

Old Tezzeret is slow as hell, isn't it? In vintage people don't play it anymore because of his high cost despite being a one turn clock by itself with time vault in the deck.

[rogue.nine]

I haven't played him in thopters but i did play him in a weird grindstone/counterbalance deck as a two of at first then a 1/1 split with JTMS.

He's been good to me when he resolved cause of his raw tutor power, but basically if you're resolving 5 cc sorcery speed things they had better be good, and its not really fair to say oh i resolved him and then won the game == good
Because:
1) If you opponent had a counter he would not have let you resolve a planeswalker.
2) If you opponent has no counter you can resolve anything and win the game -> so its not really tezz but the fact that i already won the control war and tezz just sped up closing the game and acted as a finisher.

Because there were plenty of times I had him in my hand in the course of the game and he sat there because I could not stabilize/could not afford 5 mana/ had other things to do.

If you are in a position to resolve tezz and then untap you're probably doing fine anyways, the biggest problem I have had with this deck is stabilizing the game. Once you stabilize and your combo kicks in you're going to win pretty much guaranteed so big late game drops that don't help you get to that point and don't really help when you're dying are probably win more. Like I am aware you can tutor for your missing combo piece with him but you don't have mana to spend to gain life until next turn 99% of the time and at that point you're either dead or as I said you were stabilized already. I hate to say it but Jace 2 is probably better in the PW slot for his versatility and power, although a CB deck with Tezz 2 is very intriguing since he can throw a blocker on the field to stop the bleeding, comes down earlier and can win you the game outside the red zone...but Jace is probably still stronger curse him :(

Tl;dr:
Tezz doesn't help much when you're behind and if you're ahead Tezz could be anything since you've stabilized, ergo with this sort of deck you're winning. There are other powerful cards you could probably play with that impact the board and have the potential to come down a lot earlier.

[The Big Ragu]

I've yet to play against this deck. How frequently does Jace pull off his ultimate finisher?

[Tao]

In 90% of the games the opponents scoop to save time when you begin to charge Jace because it means that they don't have any threats in play and that you don't have any need for extra cards anymore. In a real tournament where time matters and the opponents benefit from the game taking longer you might win some games with his ultimate because they make you go through the steps.

Aside from that it depends on the version how many games you win with Thopters and how many you win with Jace. Lists with 4 Foundry/4 Sword will of course win more often with the Combo.
In my version with Enlightened Tutors and only 2 Foundrys/1 Sword I win about half the game via "check mate" (Jace/Countertop/Moat or similar locks) and the other half with the combo.

[forsmark]

StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Indianapolis - Josh A Guibeault
4 out of 267 players
Source: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5592&iddeck=40475

//NAME: CounterTop Thopter
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Blood Moon
4 Counterbalance
1 Future Sight
1 Moat
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Wrath of God
6 Island
2 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun And Moon
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wrath of God

Good old Wrath of God but also Blood Moon MD tech. Thoughts?

[ivanpei]

At first I was like WTF future sight? What is this? EDH? Then I thought for a while, seriously. I always wanted an enchantment draw effect in blue to tutor for against control. I splashed black once for dark tutelage MD but that sucked balls against aggro. I needed something that was in the main colour and not a splash for mana stability. Also blue stuff pitches to force when it's terrible. I honestly played honden of the seeing winds for a long time. But it wasn't good enough and I failed miserably.

Now let's compare it to future sight, the mana cost is not an issue as this is more or less a 2 colour deck. The 5cc, well you are just tutoring this for control so lets hope you don't draw it against aggro. Fow fodder is never bad. Ok say we actually resolve it, it's... The nuts? I mean it completely bypasses enlightened tutor's card disadvantage as you can play it off the top. It combos insanely with sensei's divining top and brainstorm. You can play like 2/3 cards a turn off FS and still leave a counterspell somewhere on the top 3 to screw your opponent. It's literally like a super counterbalance. The downside is that its not good with a blind balance as you are revealing your top card. In conclusion, this is very interesting. Control has always been the weak MU for thopthers and I'm very excited by this new tech.

I love mtgthesource for exactly this. The forefront of crazy new tech! Thanks foresmark!

[The Big Ragu]

I've yet to test or play against this deck, but Tezzy seems like an overcosted tutor, with his other abilities not bringing much to the table.

[Justin]

At first I was like WTF future sight? What is this? EDH? Then I thought for a while, seriously. I always wanted an enchantment draw effect in blue to tutor for against control. I splashed black once for dark tutelage MD but that sucked balls against aggro. I needed something that was in the main colour and not a splash for mana stability. Also blue stuff pitches to force when it's terrible. I honestly played honden of the seeing winds for a long time. But it wasn't good enough and I failed miserably.

Now let's compare it to future sight, the mana cost is not an issue as this is more or less a 2 colour deck. The 5cc, well you are just tutoring this for control so lets hope you don't draw it against aggro. Fow fodder is never bad. Ok say we actually resolve it, it's... The nuts? I mean it completely bypasses enlightened tutor's card disadvantage as you can play it off the top. It combos insanely with sensei's divining top and brainstorm. You can play like 2/3 cards a turn off FS and still leave a counterspell somewhere on the top 3 to screw your opponent. It's literally like a super counterbalance. The downside is that its not good with a blind balance as you are revealing your top card. In conclusion, this is very interesting. Control has always been the weak MU for thopthers and I'm very excited by this new tech.

I love mtgthesource for exactly this. The forefront of crazy new tech! Thanks foresmark!

The thing that I like about Future Sight is that, with Counterbalance, you can counter a Force of Will (or any other 5cc spell) if you resolve Enlightened Tutor in response.

[ivanpei]

And the funny thing is that future sight is EXACTLY the card you want to see against a control deck that runs force of will. That and the major style points for kicking ass with it. Look mom, I actually won a game in legacy by casting a 5cc card that isn't called Ad Nauseum!

Edit: Also with top, future sight can instantly be milked for maximum effect before it gets blown up. 1: Draw a card, is pretty awesome (tap top: draw a card, pay 1 recast top, repeat).

[forsmark]

I also find the Future Sight tech quite interesting. And @ivanpei you're absolutely correct, it's completely insane with an active top. It's says ":1:: Draw a card. :1:: Brainstorm." Think about it. Looking at the top three cards, rearranging them, an being able to play one of them for :1: repeatedly is completely bonkers as well. Other cool interaction, as said, is hiding a counterspell/fow in the top 3, and just bring put it on top and play it whenever needed. One question though: If I have fow on top with future sight in play, I can still play the fow for its alternative casting cost, right?

Also, looking through the list there are quite a few interesting things I would like to discuss as well:

1) 2x EE and 2x Ruins maindeck. I think this is a very plausible idea. Ruins is so good in this deck, it's completely unfair. Recurring EE are one thing, but recurring lost Thopter Foundrys are good.

2) 1x Karakas MD. I've never been a fan of singletons without a way to tutor them up. Why do you think this was here?

3) Blood Moon MD and Red Elemental Blast SB. I am not sure what to think of this. Someone with more experience playing the deck should probably have something clever to say.

4) Ensnaring Bridge as a compliment to Moat. I like. Not sure I will be able to use it though, as I don't own any moats and play humility instead.

5) Wrath of God > Firespout. It's a whole turn slower, but is on color and takes care of Goyfs and Knights as well. Not to mention other randomness that firespout can't handle. Metal call or? Thoughts?

6) MD Pithing Needle. I like this very much, takes care of so much randomness. For example, Landstill is still around in my meta, would shut down factories and jaces if need be like a champ.

7) Some "missing" cards that I always try to make room for: Vedalken Shackles and Oblivion ring. While I think shackles is more of a meta card than anything else, I think I would miss the oblivion ring. Both cards are also 3cc for the purpose of CB.

Thoughts?

- forsmark

[FieryBalrog]

While I'm sure he was really tired and the matchup is annoying and tedious and complicated, I felt like Josh threw away a superior position in game 3 vs. Ben Weinburg's 4-color countertop.

[ivanpei]

@ forsmark:

1) Agreed academy ruins is a great card, however this deck plays up to 4 colours and still needs to run sufficient basics to play around wasteland into moat/humility on turn 4. If you are not splashing too many colours, the 2nd ruins seems fine. IMO he should play more volcanic islands. He runs 3 REB in the board, what if his volc got wasted? He would have 3 dead cards in his deck!

2) Guy likes cool things, or maybe he's seeing alot of show and tell/emrakul/reanimator

3) MD moon is not too bad, its excellent vs half the decks out there while being bad against the other half. There are too many decks that play noble heirarch and with the printing of Zendikar enemy fetches, bloodmoon is kinda lacklustre now. REB sb is quite common, most guys here have red for firespout and REB in the board. REB is the best card to run against blue control. It not only counters blue spells, it also nukes Jaces and counterbalances that are already in play. It can also be used as a STP against merfolk.

4) I play moat + bridge. I tutor for bridge half the time and moat half the time. Sometimes I go for both because they compliment each other. Usually I try to land moat but bridge is often easier to cast against things with wasteland. Bridge is MVP vs zoo and folk. Folk has wastelands and coralhelm commander which makes moat less effective while zoo is often so fast that a turn 4 moat is sometimes too slow. If you are playing humility, I don't recommend bridge.

5) Wrath is too slow in general, I think he just threw it in. Notice that he has no counterspells or spell snares. IMO this guy was getting slightly greedy.

6) MD needle is good in some metas, I play mine in the side though. You can shut down factories with moat/bridge too. Naming Jace with needle kinda splash damages on your own Jace too. You want to kill/counter Jace with EE/REB/O-ring, needling it is not as effective.

7) The problem is always space, pick and choose wisely, I usually like to play a 2/2 spell snare-counterspell split so I have limited space and my 3cc slot is currently ensnaring bridge.

I love future sight. I can't wait to test it. :)

Edit: I don't see why you can't pay the alternate casting cost for Force when future sight is on the table. There seems to be no ruling I can think of that says otherwise.

[forsmark]

@Ivanpei

Thanks for the enlightenment. I have only been playing the deck online or with proxies, as I sadly own neither Jace nor Moat. I still however really really want to make a decklist that work. So far I've been replacing with Elspeth and Humility, respectively. I am starting to think it's not really doable. Thing is though, I simply refuse to pay 100$ for a type 2 card and quite a few cards are higher and my financial priority list than a 200$ singleton that's only really useful in a few decks.

[ivanpei]

@ Moat, I agree that this card is a pain in the ass to get. I only bought it after I finally finished getting all my 40 duals and 40 fetchlands (along with every other legacy staple). Of course I don't play standard at all so I have the money to concentrate on legacy and I've been playing since revised. Seriously though, its very strong in this deck.

As for Jace TMS, I don't see this card dropping in price anytime soon. Maybe after it rotates, but that's a long time. It will still be played in extended for as long as it remains legal. And even after that, it already is a legacy staple. It should settle at roughly 70+ USD or so IMO after it leaves standard. If you are willing to wait, why not save 30$ each? Elspeth+ humility seems like a good alternative, though I would claim that moat+ jace is better.

I'm playing this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 STP
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top

2 Thopther
1 Sword
1 EE
1 Bridge
1 Moat
3 Jace TMS (Will try future sight instead of Jace 3)

3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell

1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Misty
4 Flooded
1 Windswept
5 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

I play a transformational sideboard against anything that runs krosan grip. I board out 4 tutors, 2 thopthers and sword of the meek for goyfs, warmonks and other good stuff.

[forsmark]

@ Moat, I agree that this card is a pain in the ass to get. I only bought it after I finally finished getting all my 40 duals and 40 fetchlands (along with every other legacy staple). Of course I don't play standard at all so I have the money to concentrate on legacy and I've been playing since revised. Seriously though, its very strong in this deck.

As for Jace TMS, I don't see this card dropping in price anytime soon. Maybe after it rotates, but that's a long time. It will still be played in extended for as long as it remains legal. And even after that, it already is a legacy staple. It should settle at roughly 70+ USD or so IMO after it leaves standard. If you are willing to wait, why not save 30$ each? Elspeth+ humility seems like a good alternative, though I would claim that moat+ jace is better.

Moat + Jace is definately stronger, no doubt. It is however also several hundred dollars more expensive. :P

My list as of now:


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Pithing Needle
1 Future Sight
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell

2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
4 Island


The maindeck Needle is there for opposing Jaces and all sorts of junk.
Still not decided on the SB, but definately some staple singletons against graveyard and some firespout and REB/Pyroblast. Also, Vedalken Shackles and the third EE should be there.

A few things I would like help on:

1) 2x Humility or 1x Humility + 1x Ensnaring Bridge? Humility and Bridge obviously don't play together well, but as you said yourself, sometimes you tutor for one sometimes for the other depending on the situation. Bridge also gives me a 3cc tutorable card for CB.

2) Land configuration. I am thinking that maybe I should replace one of the Ruins with a Tolaria West. No matter what, I want to have more than one ruins in there somehow. Big fan of EE + Ruins.

- forsmark

[ivanpei]

IMO 2nd academy is better than the tolaria. Cip tap lands are terrible in legacy. The 3rd counterspell is too much, I would cut a Cspell and the 2nd humility for 2 snares. I find snares very useful in all mu's while cspell is really slow vs zoo and folk. As for bridge, I won't play it in your list. If you have a bridge in play, you can't kill with elspeth. Unless you plan on indestructable 1/1s getting past goyfs. If you upgrade elspeths to jace, I'll switch humility to bridge because I've been poked to death by 1/1s too many times. ;) generally I dislike humility in decks without manlands. Being able to stop a horde of 1/1s with a humble factory/vault that's built into your manabase was what traditionally makes humility good.

[forsmark]

IMO 2nd academy is better than the tolaria. Cip tap lands are terrible in legacy. The 3rd counterspell is too much, I would cut a Cspell and the 2nd humility for 2 snares. I find snares very useful in all mu's while cspell is really slow vs zoo and folk. As for bridge, I won't play it in your list. If you have a bridge in play, you can't kill with elspeth. Unless you plan on indestructable 1/1s getting past goyfs. If you upgrade elspeths to jace, I'll switch humility to bridge because I've been poked to death by 1/1s too many times. ;)

Right you are about Elspeth + Bridge. Didn't see that. Thanks for your help. Last thing, what would you recommend in SB vs a meta with folks and zoo?

[Tao]

A combination of Kitchen Finks and Path to Exile.

[ivanpei]

I would play paths, REBs and firespouts. I find firespout -> finks most times. Finks doesn't stop island walking merfolks and finks can be pathed/burned by zoo. If you don't plan to splash red, finks + paths are probably best. Cheers.

[sauce]

In case anyone is interested, I've recorded a few matches w/ cbtop thopters on modo and posted them on my youtube channel.

Here is a match vs Jace/Loam/Cbtop, two epic games.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5F039163EF2F7BD3

You can find the others there too.

[Rune]

In case anyone is interested, I've recorded a few matches w/ cbtop thopters on modo and posted them on my youtube channel.

Here is a match vs Jace/Loam/Cbtop, two epic games.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5F039163EF2F7BD3

You can find the others there too.

Kewl. Could watch these kinds of Legacy videos all day :I

[sauce]

Here is Thopters vs BW Death-n-Taxes
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D4F92D1C13E7AF3C

Here is Thopters vs Monored Goblins
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BE40A9F3F31FCE0D

[ivanpei]

Watched G1 vs Intuition countertop. I think letting Jace resolve was a mistake. You should have brainstormed/toped into the counterspell and cast the counterspell. Then when he forced you, you should have forced back. You would have won much earlier had you done that. Thats my 2 cents, the rest of the plays were good. Also, if you knew intuition countertop's list, you would know that it doesn't play No-pro, so you shouldn't have boarded in Llawan. I want to praise you on playing around spell pierce in G2 though. You slow rolled your top and that's a good play.

EDIT: G2, your opponent was super greedy, why did he blow up an EE for 2 when you both had counterbalance? I wouldn't have done that, even if I was sandbagging the 2nd balance. He was under no pressure to do so.

EDIT 2: You playing the thopther first was a mistake. You had a relic on the board. If you played sword first, baited the counter, then played thopther later on the same turn, you can sack relic to thopther and return sword back to play. ALWAYS bait with sword first in all situations.

[sauce]

Thanks, yeah I had no idea what he was playing until after the match, he told me... I did not even know it was an actual archtype (feel silly now).

[ivanpei]

Oh and btw, why did he not blow up the moat and go to town with the tarmogoyf G2? He would have killed you a hell of a long time ago with countertop lock and EE lock. What the heck?

[Link Ramirez]

Hi, I was the opponent.




EDIT: G2, your opponent was super greedy, why did he blow up an EE for 2 when you both had counterbalance? I wouldn't have done that, even if I was sandbagging the 2nd balance. He was under no pressure to do so.

Actually I should have K-Gripped the Counterbalance and EE the O-Ring. Or just ignore the O-Ring and play the second CB.
This was just me being stupid. I play better at weekends :wink:



EDIT 2: You playing the thopther first was a mistake. You had a relic on the board. If you played sword first, baited the counter, then played thopther later on the same turn, you can sack relic to thopther and return sword back to play. ALWAYS bait with sword first in all situations.

But since I also play a deck that brings stuff back from the grave I wouldn't have tried to counter stuff that comes back anyway. But you are of course right, always try to bait the counter with unimportant stuff first.

My reason for the Moat situation. At that point we both had to play the clock to win the match. And sauce had less time left. Since he already exiled his sword I assumed the only (realistic) way he could win was via Jace. And for this I conveniently had an Explosives on 4 in play. I know, not a manly way to try to win. As sauce said in the video, in paper the match would have ended in a draw.
But life is fair and he was playing the clock (and the match in general) better than me.

[Frid]

Just won today another 46 man tournament with the same decklist I posted here one month ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836-[Deck]-CounterTop-Thopter/page26

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
7 [B] Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


I've done a report, but it's again in spanish, so if someone is interested I can link it so that you can use google translator if you want.
The only change I did to the deck I used last month is the addition of one tabernacle in the sb instead of the fourth relic of progenitus, but I'm not totally sold on this yet.
The deck has performed really well in these last 30 days, as the only two tournaments I've played with it have been victories for me :D. I'm really looking forward to optimize the sb and bring it to Annecy in may, because it is really really solid. Give it a try.

[Rancorous Fool]

Could you post a link to your report? I'll see if I can get it translated.

[Frid]

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3966

If something remains unclear just ask

[Toofresh]

Hi, let me start by saying I am a new member at the source and hope to contribute and help as much as I can. I have been using these forums for some time now just never bothered to sign up. I have been focusing on Legacy for the past year or so and have played many diff decks, including Fold, Survival, and all sorts of Countertop variants.

Just started playing Counter-Thopter on MTGO for the past few days, and I am using the list that Top 8 the INdi star city event, with a slightly different SB. My SB is this:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
4 leyline of sanctity
3 red elemental blast
2 tormods crypt
2 wrath of god

To answer a question somebody asked about why this list runs Karakas, I think it is more to deal with keeping Mangara offline against Death and Taxes, as well as combating Emrakul.

I have an idea that may or may not be a good edition to this deck. I was thinking sticking a way to bring Emrakul into play in the deck. Since we already run 0 creatures a polymorph and Emrakul would only take up 2 cards and could be a backup plan, although this may just be a win more situation, I feal like it may give the deck another solid win condition in certain situations. For example if we only have thopter in play with no sword, we could make a token by sacing another artifact than morphing into Emrakul. This could work especially well in game 2, where most good players will have boarded out there removal and therefore will have no way to destroy the polymorph target. This is just an idea, and im not sure if its feasible or would help the deck. I just figure since we already have no creatures it may be possible to work Emrakul in without affecting the rest of the deck too much. Other ways could be running 1 copy of Gamekeeper wit Emrakul since we already run 1 green mana source. Or running 1 copy of polymorph and dryad arbor or something along those lines. Any thoughts on this as a viable addition to the deck? Or does it seem like a win more kind of thing?

Also was thinking an Emrakul package could be put in the SB. After they board out removal for game 2 and bring in hate for the thopter combo, we board in Emrakul and a way to put him on the battlefield for a nice surprise.

So far testing the list from the Indi SCG open has gone well, not sure about the Blood Moon, would think back to basics would be a better choice. Although deck lacks 3cc for Countertop and being able to fetch Blood Moon with enlightened tutor comes in handy on a rare occasion. Any thoughts would be appreciated. This deck seems to be positioned well because it does so good against creature strategies. Would love to see more lists, and discussion of card choices.

Frid: How is intuition compared to Enlightened Tutor? I think you have enough disruption, but Moat seems like it is necessary in this deck, along with Bridge. How do you use Loam?

What do you all think about wrath, I am looking to make room for some counterspells atm, thoughts?

[Frid]

@Toofresh: Obviously enlighteted tutor lists are better against aggresive decks than intuition ones, but against aggrocontrol and control mirrors intuition is vastly superior. And moat isn't THAT necessary at all, I play peacekeeper in my sb to board it when needed. Bridge is for me directly a bad card, because when you're playing a control deck you try to have as many cards as possible in your hand, not viceversa. Loam is there to enable many different intuition piles to recurr artifacts and lands, which are basically the main engine of the deck.

[grahf]

@Toofresh: Welcome to the Source!
I'm glad to see interest in the deck, and I'd recommend reading through the almost 30 pages of discussion in this thread. The deck hasn't changed substantially since its creation and I think we've discussed most card choices at one point or another.

An Emrakul backup plan could maybe possibly work, I haven't tried it, but I'm a bit skeptical. Here's a few reasons why.

- Polymorph isn't an artifact so it can't be fetched with E Tutor or recurred with Academy Ruins.
- Proteus Staff could be used instead of Polymorph, but this costs more mana is cold to the same sideboard cards that the Thopter combo fears, namely Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle.
- As you point out, you need some creature on the board to morph. Saccing your Thopter Foundry to itself seems like a corner case, costs 3 mana, and is counterproductive besides. As you'll notice as you test the deck, when the full Thopter combo comes online, you usually just win. To get full and consistent use out of Polymorph/Staff, you would want to play 4x Mishra's Factory, which would change the deck's manabase substantially, and not in a good way. One of this deck's strengths is that it plays lots of basic lands, enough as you point out to potentially support Blood Moon or B2B. If you played Gamekeeper, how would you get it in the graveyard?

Prove me wrong! Try it and see how it works. You could get away with playing just one Proteus Staff because it's fetchable, but I think you would want at least 2-3 Polymorphs.

The SCG Indy list looks heavily teched out for its anticipated metagame, it clearly did well but I wouldn't assume those choices are gospel. Some of the one-ofs he played could be moved to the sideboard in favor of Counterspells in a more unknown meta. Personally I wouldn't leave home without CS anyways because Counterbalance will not always save your ass. However I don't Wrath of God is all that necessary, but Firespout might be worth a look - here's why. Against the decks you want a board sweep against (Merfolk, Zoo, Gobs, Elves), you want it online as soon as possible, you want to clear a board of weenies, and you might not get to four mana before you die. All these points are in Firespout's favor over Wrath. The things that only Wrath can kill - large Goyfs, KotR, Progenitus, Emrakul - are actually less of a problem for us as I see it. You either stall with Moat/Humility, chump block all day long with Thopters, or just race. The lifegain helps tremendously with racing, and you should theoretically be able to outrun even Emrakul's Annihilator triggers if you can put enough tokens on the table.

I used to play this deck as if it were Landstill + Thopters - with Wraths, Factories, and even Standstill. That didn't work out so well. There's subtle but notable differences in how the two decks play even if they share a lot of cards. Fewer lands and a lower mana curve, for one.

[Anusien]

Presumably the plan is Show and Tell, not Polymorph. If you have Thopters going, I doubt you need anythinge else.

[Arsenal]

IMO 2nd academy is better than the tolaria. Cip tap lands are terrible in legacy.

But you're not supposed to count Tolaria West towards your land count, it's used as an uncounterable, in-your-hand tutor spell 99% of the time.

[Toofresh]

Wow just took like 30 minutes writing a post detailing my experience so far with this deck and questions and analysis and somehow it didn't submit and I lost the post. Will have to get back to everybody later BC I am not about to re write it all. Oh well, heres the list I have been playing on MTGO, just keeping this short thought/opinions?

1 Moat
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tundra
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Counterspell
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
6 Island
1 Humility
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tropical Island
2 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wrath of God
1 Blood Moon

I know Humilty and Moat in the same starting 60 looks weird but I have liked it so far, lets me draw one easier, and more importantly lets me play Humility to shut off Pridemages and Lavamancers, and Moat when it is more appropriate. Like I said had a long post prepared but it was deleted, will have to get back to you all, grrrr.

I have been having troubles finishing games within the time limits on MTGO. I have games completely locked up but it just takes too long to finish them off, and if it goes to game 3 I rarely have enough time to finish them, despite usually always being in a winning position. Therefore im looking for ALT win cons, you guys pointed out the flaws in Emrakul. Maybe something else? Painters servant grindstone? IDK

Also how fast should I look to crank out thopters? I know every situation is different but I usually lean toward establishing a Countertop lock first, than Moat or Humility and than go for the thopters or jace (mainly speaking of game 1 but also I do this game 2 and 3 most of the time). I never drop thopter and sword early, even if they are in my hand. Is this wrong, should I sometimes be aggressive and look to to canrk out thopters in the early game? This is a MUCH MUCH abbreviated version of the post that I wrote which was lost, Ill have to get back to you all with my in depth results later.

Any thoughts comments are appreciated, thanks.

[versus004]

@ Toofresh: There is 2 ways to play Thopters:
- If you have one (all) piece(s) of Countertop: You play Countertop as soon as possible et use it to make tempo until you play your kill.

-You have one (all) pice(s) of Thopter: You play the combo as soon as possible and you protect it until victory.

For Moat and Humility: I think you should better play Humility + Ensnaring Bridge. The bridge is better for the mana curve of the deck.

[Frid]

Got 3rd out of 180 today again with my personal version of thopters, this time with a red splash:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
5 [B] Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast


Found the red splash totaly useful against the tier decks and I think I will play the deck like this in the future: Played against 2 zoos crushing them, one goblins, two WG equipment aggro, one junk, one UBG landstill and one UBGr threshold. Made a perfect in rounds and lost in semifinals against one of those WG maverick, as they're called. I didn't play well there, I was tired and lost much concentration, I had g1 nearly closed on my favor two times and my misplays let my opponent stay in the game and finally win, and in g2 I countered the wrong cards, which made me lose fast.
Anyway I'm totally satisfied with the deck, and look forward to get more good results with it.

[ivanpei]

@ Toofresh, Up your win con count. A 2/1 Split of thopther/sword + 2 Jace is not enough. You need the 3rd Jace and/or a 3/2 Split.

@ Versus: Humility + Bridge is a bad combo :( I personally play moat + Bridge myself, but that's personal preference. I try to counter pridemages.

@ Frid: I'm glad to see the intuition version doing well. It feels like a cross between Intuition Countertop and Countertop Thopthers. Loving it! I'll take this for a spin. I'm giving alternative blue control decks a go now as I'm unhappy with Intuition Countertop's Vial aggro MU. Punishing fire-grove seems like a weak/slow solution while thopthers seems like a simpler "I win" plan. BTW, why 2 Sword of the Meeks? With 1 Sword, you can still get away with Sword, Top, Top pile. They will always give you sword because if they give you top, you can cast top, draw and in response sac top to bring back sword and a thopther token! I guess more components= good as well.

[Frid]

I play 2 sword of the meek mainly because it's easier to get the combo that way without tutoring for it. And also to play well around graveyard hate post sb.

[forsmark]

At SCG Open Edison we saw Adam Barnello do well with Thopters. His list is quite different though, opting for a more modern metagame I would say.


//NAME: CounterTop
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Lim-dûl's Vault
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Mox Opal
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
1 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Spell Pierce


Things of note (imo):

1) Only one Counterbalance, thus shifting the deck a lot less towards the lock. There are many different opinions on CounterTop lock nowadays, personally I think it's getting worse because of the bomb-esque combo decks running around.
2) LDV and E. Tutor split. I think this is reasonable. Upping the blue count after cutting back on the number of Counterbalances seems necessary. This is also the reason for the 2 Ponders I believe.
3) Mox Opal mana acceleration and lots of artifact lands. I don't know about this, not sure it's needed, but it fits the deck alright. I think with this change the deck could support Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas but I don't know if it's even needed or wanted.
4) Singleton LED which I have no idea why is there. The only application I can think of is making mana for thopters. Seems strange.
5) The sideboard is interesting. I like the Spell Pierces and the plagues as well as the complimentary 2 needles. Karmic Justice is some interesting tech as well. The 2nd Ensnaring Bridge seems just fine as well, giving you a higher chance of drawing it and giving you a second out vs. Pridemage. Not sure what Cursed Totem is in for, mainly stops Noble Hierach and Grim Lavamancer I think. Hmm.

What do you think about this list?

[Justin]

The only thing that I can think of for Lion's Eye Diamond is that you can use it with Ensnaring Bridge to get your hand size down to zero in a pinch. Still, I must be missing something, because it still doesn't seem worth it.

[(nameless one)]

Honestly, I don't get the list at all. Why only the singleton Counterbalance? Why LED? I would love to hear more from Nightmare. Hopefully a report.

Kudos to him though.

[Wiseman4]

My main question is the lack of either the teched 1 Tezzeret or the lack of Trinket Mage. Seems to give the deck a lot more consistency.

[Grollub]

With all the cantrips and tops you can do alot of stuff with LED. The list looks like it really wants to power out a bomb fast, LED does exactly that. Certainly an interesting list.

[Jak]

Got inspired to try just a UWr list just for a splash for Blood Moon main and then some sideboard cards. Seems to have a decent game and a strong game plan.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Counterbalance
1 Blood Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat

SB
3 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

Would love a nice 3 cmc card like Thirst for Knowledge to draw some cards and fill the void in the 3 spot. Any thoughts?

[spedn7]

i am testing out a UW build which looks like this

2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Repeal
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Counterspell
2 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Jace Beleren
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 Back to Basics

i was wondering if there was something better in the repeal slot i was thinks wipe away or echoing truth. If you have any questions be feel free to ask

[SMR0079]

Honestly, I don't get the list at all. Why only the singleton Counterbalance? Why LED? I would love to hear more from Nightmare. Hopefully a report.

Kudos to him though.

Because unless your playing against Storm all day - Counterbalance is the worst card in the deck. Of course I'm being somewhat facetious, but several high level players have come to a similar conclusion about the strategy as of late and switched to tempo control or combo.

What's interesting about Thopter Control is you can actually go down to a single Counterbalance while focusing on the combo and board control. I've been messing around with a version inspired by Gearhart:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21286_Deck_Tech_ThopterSword_with_David_Gearhart.html

When the metagame rolls back around to more aggro it could be a nice change. It basically maxes out on the combo while playing both Jace and Tezz. It's similar to a another Thopter control deck created by our own Smutty Pete who created Legacy Tezzerator topping at SCG Indiana last year.

My friend who always plays Merfolk would say, "Why don't you run more then 1 or two copies of your combo and best spells in the deck like Bridge." I would then go on and talk about tutoring and control decks needing to be flexible, but there was something to his observation. Games where I would assemble the cobo by turn 3 I would generally win no matte what. Games where I resolved a Bridge on turn three and could dump my hand quickly would also lead to wins, but games where I would get counterbalance top online were not as relevant. Hmmmm The problem is that the combo matches make many of the cards that are best against aggro and control to be irrelevant.

It has actually been a good lesson in opening my mind around design space as it's really easy to get stuck accepting the stock versions of any legacy deck because the cards are so powerful and the metagame has up until recently, moved fairly slow.

Thoughts?

[ivanpei]

That looks like an interesting list in this Aggro/Midrange meta. It also looks like it would get wrecked by combo, which countertop is traditionally good against. It's a trade off IMO. I'm currently testing the intuition lists. Will update on findings.

[(nameless one)]

I think the Combo matchup shouldn't be underestimated. The reason being is that Combo tends to show up in an aggro meta.

Originally, my list didn't run Super Jaces and instead ran silver bullets like a Quinn deck because of budget reasons. Interestingly, it was doing well against combo (a CounterTop deck should naturally do well against combo anyways) and aggro. I ran 3 Foundries and 2 Swords. If you want to have something against Control, you can always run Super Jaces from the side.

I think with the diversity of the format right now, control is at it's all time low so I personally think we shouldn't worry about the control mirror.

I could be wrong with the Jaceless build but I have found myself doing quite well playtesting with my main not having Jaces.

[obituary 95]

My friend who always plays Merfolk would say, "Why don't you run more then 1 or two copies of your combo and best spells in the deck like Bridge." I would then go on and talk about tutoring and control decks needing to be flexible, but there was something to his observation. Games where I would assemble the cobo by turn 3 I would generally win no matte what. Games where I resolved a Bridge on turn three and could dump my hand quickly would also lead to wins, but games where I would get counterbalance top online were not as relevant. Hmmmm The problem is that the combo matches make many of the cards that are best against aggro and control to be irrelevant.

yes your friend would be right about counterbalence in some match ups but he is also forgetting the fact that if he does not play vial on turn one and you get counterbalence lock down then it is over for him . because at that point he is almost playing a extended deck.

but one thing that i have learned in playing the deck is that you should not rely on tutors in aggro match ups . that why for a long time i had a 4/3 split between the pieces of the combo which allowed me to get them down and protect them by turn three consistently . and it lead me to have quite a good aggro match up and i particular a good merfolk zoo and goblins match up

but the other thing I have learned about control decks while playing this one is that consistency always is better than flexibility. i mean if you can not do something consistently than what do you have. that is one of the reasons i really dislike countertop decks with a lot of silver bullets in the main.

[Deady]

I'm currently testing the intuition lists. Will update on findings.


Which 'lists' do you mean? Cause, there's only one Thopter list with Intuitions, made by Frid. Intuition is a hate or love card; some players don't like it or don't know how to play it (they find it too slow or clunky), while others find it one of the most amazing blue tutors available for blue control. Anyway, I definately like the Intuitions. Intuition is a tutor; it's not something the deck depends on. Honestly I'm not so interested in your findings about the list, cause it's great the way it is and it already proved itself (thumbs up for Frid as well here), but if you think you can add something to the discussion, then let us Intuition players know.

[supachai]

I've been thinking about building this deck but I cannot afford Moats and thus will probably be running Humility. In fact, Humility can be better against a lot of creatures (pridemage, emrakul, etc). Since it is less capable of shutting out an aggro deck entirely, I would like to run one more creature lock card. Ensnaring bridge doesn't play well with Humility as in playtesting I've rarely had a completely empty hand. Have Propaganda or even Thunderstaff ever been considered in the main? Propaganda would be nice against stuff like goblins and merfolk, and Thunderstaff + Humility is a hard lock, though it's not very good by itself.
I've posted my current decklist for reference:

4 Counterbalance

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Propaganda
1 Humility

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains

I'm running Elspeth over Jace for a few reasons. 1. It plays nicely under Humility. 2. It's much better against aggro than Jace is. 3. I don't have any Jaces (though I still think Elspeth and Jace each have their own merits).
Last thing, has anyone found the blue count to be a bit on the low side for Force of Will? 19-20 cards including Thopter Foundry doesn't always guarantee me a blue card in hand. Top helps a bit, but is there anyway to increase the blue count? I just don't know what to add/cut.

[sauce]

I got 13th at SCG 5K Legacy with Thopters, if any of you are interested, here is the list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37287

My only losses both top8'd Junk (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37281) and GerryT's Team America (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37279)

I lost to Junk in rd2 (in 2 games) and GerryT in rd5 (in 3 games due to him getting both him Maelstrom pulses on my Peacekeeper back to back)

I would not make any changes to the deck.

The Volcanic is for setting ee @ 4, JTMS is very tough for this deck to beat unless you have thopters out.

[Justin]

Nice job. The main deck is almost exactly as I would play it. How did you like the 2/2 split of Counterspell and Spell Pierce? Did either card to better for you? I like this deck, although it can be very slow to play. Did most of your games go to time (or come close to going to time)? Were you able to stay mentally focused throghout the long day?

[Arsenal]

Nice job. The main deck is almost exactly as I would play it. How did you like the 2/2 split of Counterspell and Spell Pierce? Did either card to better for you? I like this deck, although it can be very slow to play. Did most of your games go to time (or come close to going to time)? Were you able to stay mentally focused throghout the long day?

Did you ever consider adding an Elspeth, Knight Errant to perhaps speed up the kill? She still works fine with Moat/Humilty as she'll give pump + evasion, and if you ever ultimate her, you're pretty much guaranteed not to lose.

[sauce]

Nice job. The main deck is almost exactly as I would play it. How did you like the 2/2 split of Counterspell and Spell Pierce? Did either card to better for you? I like this deck, although it can be very slow to play. Did most of your games go to time (or come close to going to time)? Were you able to stay mentally focused throghout the long day?

I never went to time with my deck during the SCG 5k because I've played it for over a year and also test it online most of the time.
I've seen most of the situations that are possible with this deck already so it's easier to just make a decision quickly.

I definitely was not in that position at GP Columbus when I went 6-1-2 in Day1 and missed Day2 because of my draws (due to time)
I would not recommend taking this deck to a big tournament unless you have 6months of playing it under your belt.
Every decision + topping every turn is going to drain the clock.

I never got to cast Spell pierce at the tournament, but it is really good on the draw vs Counterbalance & Hymn.
I tested it on MODO for a week, and loved it. It is also great at stopping Vial/Top on the play.


Did you ever consider adding an Elspeth, Knight Errant to perhaps speed up the kill? She still works fine with Moat/Humilty as she'll give pump + evasion, and if you ever ultimate her, you're pretty much guaranteed not to lose.

I have played Elspeth in the board before (8 months ago) but I never had a slot for it main deck.
I do not feel like it is necessary unless you do not have Moat and instead are running Humility main.

I've tried Wrath/Firespout main before, but it just is unnecessary most of the time.

[thefreakaccident]

Honestly, I don't get the list at all. Why only the singleton Counterbalance? Why LED? I would love to hear more from Nightmare. Hopefully a report.

Kudos to him though.

Well, I actually really like the LED in the list for several reasons, mainly that you can power out anything in the deck by turn 2 with a sensei's divining top. I'm really unsure about the 1 counterbalance in the list... I could see playing less than a full set b/c of the amount of tutors he has, but just playing 1 out of the 75 seems rather foolish, perhaps he could only find 1?

[Djz05]

Thopter Foundry
60 cards, 15 sideboard
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra
22 lands


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
38 other spells


Sideboard
2 Spell Snare
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Aura of Silence
1 Serenity
2 Engineered Plague
2 Meddling Mage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Back to Basics
15 sideboard cards
Created with Decked Builder

Sent from my iPod

[Djz05]

I've only recently started getting into legacy. I decided to play thopters because A) the money cards in his deck (FoWs/Tundra/d-top) where legacy cards I already had or intended to get, and B) i've always liked playing UW. This was more or less the list I ran with a few times so far. I've went against a couple of decks and so far I've been pretty confident about winning games. Most of the losses i've had were partly misplays on my part especially against decks I've never come up against or unfamiliar with. (artifact affinity / merfolk).

For starters how is the merfolk matchup for everyone else? I've lost all the merfolk matches i've come against so far, even after boarding. So far what I would try to do is Mull for a first hand force for vial, only play basics to make wasteland a dead card, and after board play pithing needle for vial/jitte, meddling mage his lords, bring in eng plague. It doesnt help that I've only really played the deck recently so I miss out some important interactions like using E. Tutor w/ counterbalance for a 1cmc hard counter or drawing with top to counter any 1 cmc spell.

[Morgothian]

I brang this deck to two medium tournaments this week end, one 40 players on Saturday and one 30 players on sunday. I went 1st on the first day and 6th on the second one, losing my matches only against the same person both days. The list:

DEEP BLUE THOPTERS

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Sea of Synod
1 Academy Ruins

2 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopter Fooundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Humility (Saturday)/Moat (Sunday)
1 Vedalken Shackles (Saturday)/Ensnaring Bridge (Sunday)

Saturday MUs

1° Ooze Reanimator, 2-1
2° MOST (deck played by a great player with Qurion, Fauna Shaman, Mother of Runes, Opposition, Stasis and Tradewind Rider), 1-2
3° ANT, 2-0
4° Rubin Zoo, 2-0
5° Spiral Tide, 1-1 due to time,we couldn't begin G3
6° Dark Horizons, 2-0
Quarterfinals: Dredge, 2-0
Semifinals: Kuldotha combo, 2-1
Finals: Zoo Sligh, win by drop

Sunday MUs

1° Death&Taxes, 2-1
2° Enchantress, 2-0 (G1 unbelievable, he has about 18 enchantmens, 1 Emrakul in play and he loses because I create every turn 8 thopters, sacrifice 6, block with 1 and attack with the other)
3° Progenitus Rock, 2-0
4° MOST, again... 1-2
5° Merfolk, I.D.
Quarterfinals, MOST again and again...1-2, sob!

[forsmark]

I have been testing a version inspired by David Gearheart's list at the SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21286_Deck_Tech_ThopterSword_with_David_Gearhart.html) to some decent success. I am swapping Jaces with Elspeth and Moat with Humility for budget reasons. I have a fairly good matchup against the tempo decks (tested mainly against Team America) but I get crushed but aggro (mainly testing against Zoo and Affinity, Goblins been okay thanks to SB E.Plague). I am looking for ideas to improve. The sideboard is still a mess, been swapping cards back and fourth all the time.


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance
1 Pithing Needle
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Den
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Engineered Plague


Still unsure wether the whole Tezzeret thing is worth it, but it's been a beast when it hits. It just pains me that I have to run a lot of artifact lands to keep him active, when he is only a 2-off.

- forsmark

[obituary 95]

right now i think cards such as tezeret and jace are bad right now. for one it costs 4 mana and you are playing in a format filled with huge dudes. second by the time you get to four mana aagainst decks such as team america you are so far behind it dosent matter

[Djz05]

Ivanpei how is he transformational sb package working for you? I was thinking of doing he same thing with he trops and goyfs i had. A lot of game 2/3 i had, i wish i had some sort of beater since most removal has been sided off and im swinging with meddling mages equipped with the sword after the combo was answered with grips/o rings/extirpates

[wizard_of_gore]

Hi guys. I have question.
Is moat really essentially and necessity for this deck? Because i can't afford it, is humility enough for deck or need something more? On first look, i don't like ensnaring bridge (because it's to conditional), but i'm not sure about it because i didn't test it yet. So how ensnaring bridge working for those who are playing with it?

[forsmark]

Hi guys. I have question.
Is moat really essentially and necessity for this deck? Because i can't afford it, is humility enough for deck or need something more? On first look, i don't like ensnaring bridge (because it's to conditional), but i'm not sure about it because i didn't test it yet. So how ensnaring bridge working for those who are playing with it?

The way I see it, it works really well. Most of the time, it's a better Moat. The deck thrives on card quality, not card advantage (see Enlightened Tutor, and especially if you're not running Jace), thus you empty your hand quite fast. Wild Nacatl and other 2-3 power dudes is the worst (Goblins being a problem obviously) but cards like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary grows way to fast to be able to attack through the bridge. Also, Ensnaring bridge is just about the most awesome thing against Progenitus and Emrakul, as they will never ever be able to attack (in reality).

I am currently playing a split between Ensnaring Bridge and Humility, fetching up which ever one is most appropriate. I think that if you don't have Moat, the risk of drawing both is negliable compared to the power of flexibility (a word that encompasses the deck really well I think). I am thinking of putting a second Ensnaring Bridge in my deck. It's that good.

[Morgothian]

If I have to say which is the card that made me win games which seemed desperate, I would say Ensnaring Bridge.

Against Kuldotha, in the semifinals, I had 3 island in play after a sundering titan and in hand Trinket, Flooded Strand and Enlightened, while he had double Welder, Wurmocoil Engine, Metalworker and Sundering Titan, and a lot of mana+voltaic key and grim monolith.

I draw a Sensei's Divining Top, i fetched for Plains, played Trinket for Pithing Needle and played it on welder, then I chumpblocked the titana and went 5 life, upkeep Enlightened for Ensnaring, played is, played top, manipulated the draw while he wasn't able to attack me, found Jace, controlled his draw avoiding Phyrexian Revokers and won by Jace.

Ensnaring is sooo strong, and Moat is too, t's the only card which saves you against Goblins and Merfolk. Resolving Moat against Gobboz is often GG, and it's valuable also vs. Merfolk.

[Djz05]

Personally I like playing humility more over Moat. Humlity just solves a lot of problems from creatures like those in zoo, fish, goblins, aggro loam. Taking 1 damage pings was easy to get back from soon as I had the thoptersword combo going.

[The Treefolk Master]

Personally I like playing humility more over Moat. Humlity just solves a lot of problems from creatures like those in zoo, fish, goblins, aggro loam. Taking 1 damage pings was easy to get back from soon as I had the thoptersword combo going.

You wil get back into the game regardless of the situation if you have thoptersword going, 99.9% of the time.

Moat stops the bleeding and is often GG in G1, while Humility (which can also be devastating) just slows down the bleeding (not very good against, say, 4 Gobs).

[AggroSteve]

i have seen a few, bit older lists, running tezzeret, the seeker,.... are there any possible tricks with him? don't know maybe with divining top, or vedalken shackles, or was his sole purpose to tutor up for artifacts?

[GGoober]

Any further news/development on Adam Barnello's (Nightmare) list?

I really enjoy his take on Counterthopter with 3 Opals, artifact lands, Ensnaring Bridge MD, Thopters, Top and other artifact goodies. I've been working on a personal list and Tezz 2.0 is very very powerful. The deck wins faster because of Tezz 2.0 (digging 5 cards a turn is huge) and ultimating with ~5-10 artifacts is game-winning and allows the deck to win much faster with/without Thopters.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested similar versions of Adam's list before I go about posting one. It proably doesn't belong in this thread since it's quite different than the classic Thopters list.

[Arsenal]

A traditional UWx CounterTop Thopters list made 14th place at SCG Open Atlanta: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37576

Pretty standard looking list, although I'd probably replace the 3 Mindbreak Trap with something else in the sideboard, possibly Spell Pierce.

[forsmark]

Any further news/development on Adam Barnello's (Nightmare) list?

I really enjoy his take on Counterthopter with 3 Opals, artifact lands, Ensnaring Bridge MD, Thopters, Top and other artifact goodies. I've been working on a personal list and Tezz 2.0 is very very powerful. The deck wins faster because of Tezz 2.0 (digging 5 cards a turn is huge) and ultimating with ~5-10 artifacts is game-winning and allows the deck to win much faster with/without Thopters.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested similar versions of Adam's list before I go about posting one. It proably doesn't belong in this thread since it's quite different than the classic Thopters list.

I'll be very eager to see that list. I have been brewing something along these lines as well, but I have been having trouble with Zoo and other fast aggro. If not here, then please share it in a PM or start a new thread dedicated to Turbu Thopters (or what it's gonna be called :P).

- forsmark

[Arsenal]

For those having trouble finishing games with/without ThopterSword, have you considered running Elspeth instead of radically changing the deck? I mean, Elspeth makes 4/4 flyers by herself, makes your 1/1 tokens 5/5 flyers, she protects herself/Jace, works well with Humility/Moat, and is less vulnerable to stuff like Rebuild than Tezzeret & Co. are.

[Mackan]

Me and a couple of Swedes went to Danish Legacy Masters last weekend. Here's a brief report and a decklist!

ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Humility
INSTANTS (16)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
ARTIFACTS (15)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
1 Engineered Explosives
LANDS (20)
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
SIDEBOARD
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Future Sight

~90 players, 7 rounds. Not remembering that much...

R1: Goblins. A pretty tough matchup... He denied me mana. I had about 4-5 turns to find Ensnaring Bridge but failed. Sideboard;
-1 dark tutelage -1 engineered explosives -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek -4 counterbalance +3 thoughtseize +1 pithing needle +1 ensnaring bridge +3 path to exile. I kept an ok hand and seized aways his only threath. He wasted some lands while I failed to find anything relevant except Ensnaring Brdige. A ringleader for 4 later and my chances looked grim. He revealed a Tin-street hooligan and I hoped he would play it. I figured he wouldn't because me playing draw go for a couple of turns signaling that I either had spells I couldn't play or some kind of counterspell. He did and I forced removing brainstorm. He followed up with Matron for SCG. I could either find white for the humility I was holding, enlightened tutor for pithing needle or black mana for the thoughtseize i had. I didn't and lost.
I think the matchup is reasonable but wasteland/port just gets people without blockers =P

0-1

R2: Bant. This was pretty easy. I plowed a few threaths, bated fow with thopter foundry (love having multiples for that purpose) and tezz went nuts. Game 2 was more of the same except I also had path to exile.

1-1

R3: BW Deadguy. It was a fun/tense game with all the discard going on. My deck topdecks pretty sweet, esp. with Sensei's divining top. Humility was mvp. I don't remember what I sideboarded... Tezzeret's second ability takes care of bears with sword of fire and ice, even when protected with mother of runes =)

2-1

R4: BWG Junk.

About the same as last game except he had bigger creatures.
Sideboard -4 fow -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek +3 path to exile +1 ensnaring bridge +2 spell pierce

3-1

R5: Dredge
He mulliganed to 5 game1 and I almost had him... Not that upset loosing a game1 against dredge though:)
G2: I kept a decent hand. He removed my Tormod's crypt (I should perhaps have waited playing it but I was afraid of Cabal Therapy). Tezzeret came down and was a 2 turn clock.
G3: I shipped a 1-lander, saw none and kept a good 5. He kept a slow hand with 2 discard outlets, nature's claim and some lands. I had a window of 4-5 turns to find hate/bomb but failed. He dread returned 2 grave trolls which is good against humility. I had foundry to buy a few turns but didn't find sword of the meek or a plow/path. He also had terastodon backup. Quite annoying as the matchup feels ok... he was a nice guy who played well though.

-4 counterbalance -1 dark tutelage -1 sword of the meek -1 thopter foundry +3 path to exile +1 nihil spellbomb +1 tormod's crypt +1 wheel of sun and moon +1 ensnaring bridge

3-2

R6: Merfolk
I felt a bit exhausted but knew that they can't win through Ensnaring bridge... I did my best to resolve it but it was not ment to be.
Sideboard: -1 thopter foundry -4 counterbalance +1 pithing needle +3 path to exile +1 ensnaring bridge. I was temped on thoughtseize/spell pierce for additional Ensnaring Bridge protection but decided it was not worth it. I ran thopter foundry into daze just to get it out of the way. Cast bridge turn 5 with mana for daze/cursecatcher on my fow. He also had fow. He played Thada Adel and drained me from the combo. I tried to resolve my second bridge but he had spell pierce.

3-3

R7: A Swedish friend of mine, we knew each others decks. Mirror (except he had stoneforge mystic and squadron hawks). From playtesting earlier I knew that besides it was a grind I couldn't let him connect with Sword of Fire and Ice.
G1: I resolved Dark tutelage and he couldn't beat that.
Sideboard -4 swords to plowshares -1 humility -1 ensnaring bridge -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek +3 thoughtseize +2 spell pierce +1 future sight +1 wheel of sun and moon +1 pithing needle (for jace/sofi).
G2: In this game (I think) he resolved jace and fatesealed me while i had EE / Academy ruins going for his squadron hawks. If he had brainstormed instead I think he would have pulled ahead. I had a few drawsteps to find an answer to jace but didn't.
G3: He drew quite poorly and scooped them up when I had cb/top, dark tutelage, tezz and foundry.

4-3. I think I could've won against dredge/merfolk aswell as loosing to that BW-guy. The deck was a blast to play and I would play the same list again.

In a deck as slow as this Tezzeret is the real deal. Making 5/5:s out of nowhere is something people are not prepared for.
I remember one game when we were both empty... I had sword of the meek in my yard and some lands/tops/mox. I drew and played tezzeret. +1 for thopter foundry, made 3 tokens eot. Made 6 more tokens during my turn and drained him for lethal with tezz.

Mox Opal is great aswell. Im tempted to run a singleton Chrome mox but decided against it... the opal beeing legendary is not that big of a deal. One match I was hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge and had 2 moxen in hand. I taped them for mana and saced them to the foundry, played the next, did the same and was safe for the time beeing:)

Against black I usually board -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek for fear of extirpate. Most people bring a lot of hate (krosan grip) so it's a good idea to rely less on it.

[hyc8028]

Is Dark Tutelage better than Future Sight? It is nice that we can tutor that up for card advantage and it is a lot easier to cast than future sight.

[Mackan]

At first I tried Dark confidant in the sideboard and it was ok.They were a bit shaky and died even though most people (should) take their creaturehate out. Tutelage only takes 1 slot which is a big plus in this deck. It also dodge spell snare. I was so happy with it that i decided to put it in the main. Having a E.tutor target for 3 that is not horrible against an empty board is also a plus (unlike ensnaring bridge).

It was truly devastating on the Hymn to tourach decks. I have 12 cards that help me not killing myself so the lifeloss is not that relevant.

I still like Future sigh as a complement in the controlmatchups... they can't really beat that card:) going inf with top or counter force of will with enlightended tutor is just gravy.

[ivanpei]

@ Mackan, The losses to Goblins and Merfolk could be avoided if you had played traditional UW. Basics are really good right now and I think that going heavy artifacts is not great for this deck. The games you won with Tez, could also have been won with Jace, since both are insane. Tez also forces you into 3 colours, where Jace is as good if not better than Tez. Seat of the synod and other artifact lands are IMO bad because wasteland really can screw your metalcraft for mox and keep you off the mana you need for bridge/moat. IMO the Adam Barnello/Gearheart thopther builds are "in danger of cool things". That's my 2 cents though.

[Arsenal]

The traditional UW version, with Jace and/or Elspeth, seem fine to me. Thopter/Sword only takes up 3-5 slots, with the rest of the deck operating independently as a UW CounterTop Jace deck that just so happens to run a rediculously good, albeit slowish, two-card combo in Thopter/Sword. Being able to run 5-7 on-color basic lands is also AMAZING. I'm not really sure what value people are getting from going a firm 3 color route, relying heavily on artifacts, and playing Tezzeret instead of Jace/Elspeth. Not my style, but if results suggest that UBW Tezzeret lists outperform UWx lists, then I suppose we should investigate.

[spedn7]

I agree with Arsenal UW works very well with jace or elspeth. The only time i would say you would want to splash is for a known meta. The one example I have of this is when i use to run UWr for main deck bolts to raise my spot removal up to 7 from 4 because my meta at the time was a largely merfolk with stoneforge and other tribe decks. But for an unknown meta U/W work amazing because like Arsenal said you get a larger number of basics , which my experience help win games more then a lot of other cards.

[Morgothian]

Yo to everybody, I played a 36 people tournament and a mini 16 people torunament this week edn with the following lists:

Deep Blue Thopters

4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei'd Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard

2 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun//Moon
1 Aura Flux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring

1° turn, New Horizon: 2-1
2° turn, Life.deck: 2-0
3° turn, Enchantress: 2-1
4° turn, Zoo: 0-2
5° turn, Brun: 1-1
6° turn, Dark Horizon: 2-0
Quarterfinals, Canadian Threshold: 2-1
Semifinals, Dark Horizon: 2-1
Finals, Burn: 0-2

I ended 2nd and won 2 Volcanic Islands and 2 Scalding Tarns. Next day I decided to try something different, a more aggro-control shell with Tophter foundry in sideboard:

Caw-Caw Varsuvius

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

4 Squadron Hawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard

2 Perish
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Energy Flux
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Wheel of sun//Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Only 4 turns, I won first two rounds against Goblin (G1 resolving Moat = GG) and Bant, then I.D. on 3rd and 4th round.
Quarterfinals: Thopter Foundry, 2-0
Semifinals: Jace Landeed, 2-1
Finals: Ichordi, 2-0 with Moat taht wins alone


for any detail in the game Pm me.

[(nameless one)]

The traditional UW version, with Jace and/or Elspeth, seem fine to me. Thopter/Sword only takes up 3-5 slots, with the rest of the deck operating independently as a UW CounterTop Jace deck that just so happens to run a rediculously good, albeit slowish, two-card combo in Thopter/Sword. Being able to run 5-7 on-color basic lands is also AMAZING. I'm not really sure what value people are getting from going a firm 3 color route, relying heavily on artifacts, and playing Tezzeret instead of Jace/Elspeth. Not my style, but if results suggest that UBW Tezzeret lists outperform UWx lists, then I suppose we should investigate.

I just want to add that Elspeth is better if youre meta is more aggro. If it has more control, Jace breaks the control mirror.

[Arsenal]

Here's my current list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

1 Wrath of God

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Spell Pierce
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Plague
1 Serenity
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I'm most likely going to test -1 Tundra, +1 Volcanic Island, then try to fit 3 Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard. I'm also going to probably go -1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Future Sight in the sideboard as I find Crucible of Worlds to be good, but not great as I don't run Wasteland and Future Sight should be able to break control mirrors in a more impactful way than Crucible of Worlds could.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, pretty sure I'm going to go -3 Counterspell, +3 Mental Misstep... looking to trim something else to fit the 4th in somewhere maindeck. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

I'm trying this list so far, as Counterbalance is getting worse generally as time wears on:

1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jace, TMS
3 Top
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Pithing Needle
1 Cannonist
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Warmth
3 Engineered Plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Serenity
1 Back to Basics
1 Energy Flux
2 Extirpate

My meta is full of Tribal/Zoo/combo.

-Matt

[(nameless one)]

Is Jace, TMS really effective against aggro?

[Arsenal]

I think 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor is pretty standard in UWx Thopter lists; he does whatever you need him to do (bounce an Emrakul, Brainstorm the opponent to death, Fateseal to ensure control of the game is held onto, wins the game via noncreature/damage method, etc). I wouldn't run any controllish blue deck without at least 2 JtMS somewhere in my 75.

The real issue here is 3 Spell Pierce/2 Counterbalance configuration. Matt, this puzzles me slightly as Spell Pierce is almost dead versus Tribal, so-so versus Zoo, good versus Tempo, and impressive versus Combo. However, almost the exact same things can be said of Counterbalance, but Counter+Top can still, even though it's presence has been waning, lock an opponent entirely out of the game. I personally don't want to decrease my chances of having a turn 1 Top, turn 2 Counterbalance, turn 3 untap -> WIN just so I can threaten Spell Pierce, especially if I'm facing down creatures... which brings me to my next point:

No Wrath? Only 1 EE maindeck? If you go -3 Spell Pierce, +2 Counterbalance, you have 1 extra slot to fill with more creature control. Vedalken Shackles, Wrath of God, 2nd EE, even Oblivion Ring would be reasonable. What has Spell Pierce been doing for you in a tribal/Zoo meta? And wouldn't Counter+Top just be better versus the combo decks you run into?

EDIT: For an aggro meta, I like this list alot: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5592&iddeck=40475 I'd make a few slight changes, but overall, it looks pretty good. He doesn't run Counterspell/Spell Snare/etc as countermagic is traditionally weak versus aggro, and removal is where you want to be. As such, he runs 2 EE maindeck, 1 Wrath maindeck, 2 Wrath in the SB. I think the Future Sight and Blood Moon could be something else/moved to SB if you're not expecting a ton of blue-based control decks (Jacestill, opposing CounterTop decks, etc). I like his 23 land count to combat Vial aggro Wasteland nonsense, but a case could be made for 22 land as 8 basics are involved and you really only need to fetch a dual on the turn you want to EE.

[(nameless one)]

Against Tribal Aggro, or just Aggro meta in general, what about that newly spoiled NPH card: Mental Misstep?

I think everyone is on the right page about not being able to deal with a first turn Vial or something like Nacatl on the draw.

Also, what happened to the 1x Wasteland/ 1x Crucible of Worlds tech? I am guess just a single Wasteland doesn't really make a difference?

[Arsenal]

I ran Crucible in my SB, but don't run any Wasteland, so I wasn't really getting full value out of it. I'm testing Future Sight in that SB slot as my anti-control card. Future Sight, in theory, seems to be bonkers. It's been floating around a couple peoples' lists, so perhaps they could shed more light on Future Sight in the blue-based control matchup?

[(nameless one)]

I ran Crucible in my SB, but don't run any Wasteland, so I wasn't really getting full value out of it. I'm testing Future Sight in that SB slot as my anti-control card. Future Sight, in theory, seems to be bonkers. It's been floating around a couple peoples' lists, so perhaps they could shed more light on Future Sight in the blue-based control matchup?

Also with Future Sight, you can run singletons of Helm of Awakening and Brain Freeze and combo out another way (of course you need SDTop there too, which the deck is conveniently running).

[dakkon]

Future Sight started off as a joke during playtesting over the third Jace. In the control mirror, it pretty much ends the game immediately when it resolves due to the overwhelming card advantage with Top. E-tutoring for a 5 drop for Counterbalance to counter Ad Nauseam or FoW was also relevant. When it works, it's bonkers. But you're better off running the 3rd Jace unless you're expecting many rounds of the control mirror.

[sdematt]

I haven't had oodles of time to play it, but with the Combo players in my meta, Spell Pierce has been amazing. I was thinking Spell Snares since my 2 count off of CB is low (9 or so), so if I needed to counter a 2-drop Snare could work.

When finals are done, I'll get more testing in with my build. I'll also think about Wrath, most definitely.

-Matt

[ivanpei]

I sort of went the anti aggro suit with my lists recently and it has been paying off. Here's what I'm playing:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Tutor
4 STP

4 Thopther Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace TMS
1 Needle
1 Moat
2 Bridge (This is very necessary from my testing)
1 Oring

8 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Academy ruins
4 Strand
3 Misty
2 Heath

I have had alot of success with this list against anything aggro. I learned a few things from the Gearheart/Barnello Opal Thopthers list.

1. Basics are good, in the Opal lists, wastelands played a big role in dropping me off metalcraft and delaying the bridge/moat etc. I don't splash and I find the stability well worth it. 80% of games, I can go without dropping duals in the first 3 turns, ramping up nicely into a moat/bridge.

2. Ensnaring bridge is the nuts. I really really feel that we should run 2 bridges. IMO I always want to see it and it always saves my ass. Once you land it, I always search up the 2nd bridge for insurance if I don't have any of the combos (Countertop of Thopther-Sword) ready. Remember losing to grip/wipeaway? It's alot more difficult for opponents to deal with 2 bridges.

3. By having more lockpieces, the deck is heavily dependant on them. Therefore, I chopped down the disruption suit. This is to ensure I empty my hand quickly and not have counterspells clunk up my hand and screwing my bridge lock.

4. I increased my thopther-sword count because the combo is bonkers and increases my 2cc drops. 1 Sword and 1 Thopther could/should be 2 predicts if you see more control, but it's a trade off. The Opal lists ran the 4/2 split and I liked it, so here it is. I realised that opponents always force thopthers. Since if they don't and you have a sword in hand, they lose if you have any artifact in play. So baiting with a thopthers is a valid play.

I'm building this deck to be more proactive rather than reactive. I feel that conditional counters and hard counters are losing their value. Vials, GSZ, diversified curves all mess up our counters. I prefer just running out my own bombs and preempt the opponent. Has worked well for me, thoughts?

[Morgothian]

List looks pretty good but there are a couple of thing I don't like:

-First, 4 Thopter and 2 Swords is really too much, in particular if you play them and you don't use counters
-Secondly, I don't like to run 4 Sensei's Divining Tops because often you find yourself with multiple copies of them and you lose time, while 4 Counterbalance copies NOW can be a good choice

Since there's also the need to empty our hand to set up the Bridge plan, I agrre with cutting Counterspells (which are often slow) and Spell Snares and I suggest you -1 Top -1 Thopter Foundry -1 Sword + 3 Mentalo Misstep: I tried them and they are nuts, counter Aether Vial, Thoughtseize, Snares on our Combo Pieces or Balance and also Pithing Needle on Thopter Foundry. You'll never find yourself stucked with them in hand since every Legacy decks (with a couple of exceptions) plays from 14 to 18-20 cc1 drops.

[obituary 95]

List looks pretty good but there are a couple of thing I don't like:

-First, 4 Thopter and 2 Swords is really too much, in particular if you play them and you don't use counters
-Secondly, I don't like to run 4 Sensei's Divining Tops because often you find yourself with multiple copies of them and you lose time, while 4 Counterbalance copies NOW can be a good choice

Since there's also the need to empty our hand to set up the Bridge plan, I agrre with cutting Counterspells (which are often slow) and Spell Snares and I suggest you -1 Top -1 Thopter Foundry -1 Sword + 3 Mentalo Misstep: I tried them and they are nuts, counter Aether Vial, Thoughtseize, Snares on our Combo Pieces or Balance and also Pithing Needle on Thopter Foundry. You'll never find yourself stucked with them in hand since every Legacy decks (with a couple of exceptions) plays from 14 to 18-20 cc1 drops.

dude how much have you played the deck. because when you play agro and control match ups thopter foundry is really important. it allows you to do things like kill your opponent threw a active counterbalence . and the combo is really important in aggro match-ups

[Morgothian]

Well, let's say that I brang it to 4 40 people-tournaments and won 2 + made 2 finals, while made 5-2 to a 220 people event, and we can say I'm the principal Thopter-foundry Legacy player in Italy.

And I played always with a list with 3 Enlightened, 2 Thopter Foundry and 1 Sword of the Meek, because I choose a more control approach with various counters...by the way, I know what I'm talking about.

[Arsenal]

I'd never run less than 4 Top, 4 Counterbalance, 4 E Tutor, 2 Thopter, 1 Sword. That's the absolute core of the deck. 4 Top increases your chances of going turn 1 Top, turn 2 Counterbalance, turn 3 untap and win. Fetchlands, E Tutor, and Thopter Foundry are reasonable ways of dealing with extra Tops.

EDIT: I agree with Pippo84's primer on page 1. 7 flex slots that can be anything (more lock pieces, more countermagic, more removal, more planeswalker, etc). 7 flex slots is an extraordinarily high number of customizable slots. There really shouldn't be too much argument over the core.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Well, let's say that I brang it to 4 40 people-tournaments and won 2 + made 2 finals, while made 5-2 to a 220 people event, and we can say I'm the principal Thopter-foundry Legacy player in Italy.

And I played always with a list with 3 Enlightened, 2 Thopter Foundry and 1 Sword of the Meek, because I choose a more control approach with various counters...by the way, I know what I'm talking about.

If you advocate running less than four SDT, you sure as hell don't really know what you're doing. Not having a Top is really bad, having two is pretty sweet if you have them under CB lock and if you really don't want two, play one, flip it, crack a fetch/play a Tutor. I don't care how many tournaments you won with a list with less than four SDT, that is just wrong. Winning tournaments means you played well and your deck was solid. Suboptimal decks win tournaments all the time. Especially with Misstep probably making a big splash, redundancy as far as SDT is concerned becomes extremely important.
I agree with you, though, that this deck wants to run Misstep. CB and Standstill-decks are likely to profit the most from the card because they finally have a fast, cheap answer to Vial, which is exactly what they needed.

[grahf]

Pippo84's primer on page 1.

Pippo seems to have moved on from this deck, making me the de facto primer maintainer. Is there anything that anyone would like to see added? I know we're all pretty experienced with the deck but I think it's a useful reference nonetheless.

At the least I'll put Mental Misstep in the list of flex slot counterspells. Never liked Daze there anyway.

[AggroSteve]

i am still a bit confused with the new manasymbol, does mental misstep add to the force-count.... meaning is it a blue card?
i definitely think that is just a awesome card, countering vial, nacatl, lackey, thoughtseize, divining tops, just awesome

[spedn7]

Yes misstep is blue the new mana symbol means that it also has a casting coast of 2 life if you don't what to pay the color mana

[Arsenal]

Primer looks great. I agree 100% on the core of the deck, and the 7 flex slots should be emphasized as a major selling point to the deck. SEVEN slots that be anything you want can completely shape the deck to be unique is an incredible amount of flexibilty. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas players? You now have room for your Mox Opals, Tezzerets, etc. Traditional UWx players? You can play with Elspeth, Knight Errant and Wrath of God for aggro metas. The list goes on and on.

For me personally, I will use 4 of those flex slots for 4 Mental Misstep. The remaining 3 slots will most likely be Wrath of God, Ensnaring Bridge, and either Pithing Needle or Oblivion Ring (torn here because Pithing Needle is primarily there to stop Vial shenanigans... which 4 Mental Misstep should be able to do for me, and slower stuff like Pernicious Deed that Needle could hit, Oblivion Ring can hit as well... but Needle is still bonkers, need to test more to determine which is the right call post-NPH).

If the format slows down slightly as predicted by many due to Mental Misstep, this deck should profit greatly as we don't fully assume control of the game until turn 4 (Moat, Humility, Wrath of God, Jace, Elspeth, etc). It's an exciting time to be playing Thopters.

[Justin]

I think the Mental Mistep is bonkers and is one of the best cards ever printed for this format, since Legacy was created. Nevertheless, I have my doubts about it in this specific deck. CounterTop Thopter is more of a traditional control deck. It plays Counterspell over Daze for this reason. This deck generally does not lose to a resolved one-drop from an opponent. It has a toolbox of cards that can turn off an opponent's various threats. If you add Mental Mistep, what do you cut to fit it in? You certainly don't want to cut any of your artifacts, enchantments, or tutors. Counterspell sounds like the obvious answer. Is Mental Mistep better in this deck than Counterspell? I'm not so sure. As I said, Counterspell tends to be better is a slower control deck than spells such as Daze or Mental Mistep, which are more important for decks concerned with tempo early in the game. Counterspell is a 2cc spell that plays much better with Counterbalance than Mental Mistep, which is 1cc. It could turn out that Mental Mistep is just too broken not to play in this deck, but I think that the jury's still out on this.

Also, I thought I'd weigh in on the number of tops to run. I absolutley think that four tops is mandatory for this deck. After playing the deck enough times, I've found that it usually wins games when it has a top on the board and loses games when it does not. Top is the best card in the deck, hands down. You really want to maximize the chances of dropping it early. Which, now that I think about it, strengthens the case for running Mental Mistep.

[Arsenal]

Mental Misstep strengthens our Vial aggro matchup and our CounterTop mirror match (which I anticipate seeing an uptick in play due to Mental Misstep, at least for the short term while the format is experimenting). In my opinion, there's almost nothing worse than seeing turn 1 Vial, getting beat down by a bunch of green or blue men, while I can't hit 4 mana due to Port/Wasteland/Stifle. 2nd worse is seeing an opposing CounterTop player get online before I do, especially with an active Top on his side of the board.

I will absolutely cut Counterspell for Mental Misstep and rely more heavily on my permanents to control the board as opposed to Counterspell controlling the stack. I firmly believe that a minimum of 3 Mental Misstep will be required, with a strong case made for running the 4th copy.

[neckfire]

i know this isnt the exact same deck,but i was wondering how come no love/discussion for gearhearts deck?
for a reference point here is the link
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=21286

[ivanpei]

I'll wait till missteps are legal before I post my misstep list. But as it looks now, I'll probably cut a Foundry, a sword of the meek, needle (this always names vial anyway) and a Jace for 4 missteps. The format will involve alot of misstepping misteps so being quicker is very important. So far, a ton of basics + plenty of lock pieces/combo components has been working for me. Counterspell is often too slow and daze/pierce/snare are just too conditional. I see no reason not to play 4 misstep (though this applies to like 80% of legacy decks).

[Morgothian]

But you will weaken the Counterbalance curve at cc2, and Pithing Needle is too valuable as it can call Qasali Pridemage, E.E. at 2 and other annoying stuff...I agree in cutting Counterspell just because is often too slow, but I think that Spell Snare must be preserved in the list.

[slaydo]

i know this isnt the exact same deck,but i was wondering how come no love/discussion for gearhearts deck?
for a reference point here is the link
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=21286

Long time lurker of this thread.

I was actually hoping that we could discuss this version more too. I have built the deck and the card quality in it is the nuts imho. At a recent tournament I saw a humility being played against bant with pride mages and thought WOW. Having 4 counterbalance in the side against combo is awesome as well and tezzeret 2.0 is exactly what this deck needs against aggro.Its a deck for an unknown meta like mine. Everybody who plays legacy over here in the netherlands can build different decks easily so its better to come prepared against a very diverse field.

My question is the following: looking at Gearhart's list, what would you take out to include 4 mental misstep? I chose 1 sword of the meek, 2 thopter foundry and 1 Jace, the mind sculptor. Why? 1) for the sword and the foundry we have tutors in the deck and we are already running a lot of CA with 4 brainstorm, 2 JTMS, 4 SDT and 3 Tezzeret 2.0. i don't see a requirement for the 3rd Jace. Would you agree?

[sdematt]

So I sleeved up this list and took it to local Legacy: and tied for 1st:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
3 Sensei's Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
4 Force of Will
2 Jace TMS
4 Enlightened Tutor

Board:
1 Warmth
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Cannonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Serenity
1 Energy Flux
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Back to Basics

Round 1: Frodo with UR Painter
This was a pretty disappointing two games. Both games, I had the board locked down but couldn't complete the kill. In the first game I had him off the combo, but Jace ultimate didn't kill him and he Millstoned me. Ugh. Game 2 I couldn't find anything, and died to two Trinket Mages.

Record: 0-1

Round 2: Edward with Elves!
Game 1 I blow him out with Turn 3 Combo online with an EE preset on 1, taking out his guys. I win soon afterwards.
Game 2 I run out Arcane Laboratory, then Humility, then get the combo online with Jace going. He concedes.

Record: 1-1

Round 3: James (Plague Sliver) with NLT
A grueling set of games against a master Thresh player. He Stifles and Wastelands the hell out of me, but I hold on for dear life. Eventually, I remove his stuff and manage to barely land the Combo through a counter war. He doesn't see his hate.
Game 2 I lose horrible to bad beats.
Game 3 is long and drawn out since everyone is also watching Game 7 of a Hockey final (Canucks vs. Chicago, Game 7). The game goes long but I manage to hold on and get the last combo piece and get there. He fetches and brainstorms infinite times, but is unable to find his 4 Pithing Needles.

Record: 2-1

Round 4: Nick with ANT
Nick's an excellent ANT player, but he'd been drinking beer all night, so I figured that might give me some percentage points. He'd just blown out my friend playing Bant, so I was wary. I kept a double Force, double Pierce hand and got there. I slowly assembled the CounterTop engine, then rode Jace to victory.
In game 2, I kept an alright hand and we were both off to a slow start. I topdecked a much-needed Spell Pierce to protect my hand, and I managed to counter a critical Ad Nauseum. In the middle of the game, our team won, leading to dice going everywhere and cards all over the place. We continue our game, and I manage to Extirpate a countered Burning Wish, then lay Arcane Laboratory. He scoops.

Overall, I got a whole $5 for my effort, but I made my money back!

-Matt

[neckfire]

I'll be at thescg nc open this weekend with both tezzeret and adams version probably playing the tezz version in the legacy challenge to see if I like it still,iv had it since he won his gpt with it.its spicey,I jst like the sword varient adam has

[Arsenal]

Long time lurker of this thread.

I was actually hoping that we could discuss this version more too. I have built the deck and the card quality in it is the nuts imho. At a recent tournament I saw a humility being played against bant with pride mages and thought WOW. Having 4 counterbalance in the side against combo is awesome as well and tezzeret 2.0 is exactly what this deck needs against aggro.Its a deck for an unknown meta like mine. Everybody who plays legacy over here in the netherlands can build different decks easily so its better to come prepared against a very diverse field.

My question is the following: looking at Gearhart's list, what would you take out to include 4 mental misstep? I chose 1 sword of the meek, 2 thopter foundry and 1 Jace, the mind sculptor. Why? 1) for the sword and the foundry we have tutors in the deck and we are already running a lot of CA with 4 brainstorm, 2 JTMS, 4 SDT and 3 Tezzeret 2.0. i don't see a requirement for the 3rd Jace. Would you agree?

I guess I don't understand the value in making your manabase vulnerable (note: the referenced Gearheart list plays ZERO basics), while playing a bunch of cards like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal in order to justify Tezzeret. You state that Tezzeret is exactly what this deck needs versus aggro. I don't understand this at all. What exactly is Tezzeret doing versus aggro that Elspeth can't?

Also, Gearheart's list doesn't have Counterbalance anywhere in it's 75, so I'm not quite sure where you're getting the "4 Counterbalance in the sideboard" thing from. Despite CounterTop not doing well versus Vial aggro decks, people tend to forget that CounterTop (particularly Thopters thanks to E Tutor + 3cc and 4cc spells to tutor up for Counterbalance) can actually lock the opponent out of the game as early as turn 3. Midrange decks, opposing CounterTop decks, random stuff like Burn, and various combo decks all are pretty cold to an early CounterTop online.

I really don't see the need/reason to make the manabase vulnerable to commonly played non-basic hate cards, the need to play conditional stuff like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal/Mirrodin lands in order to make Tezzeret worthwhile, and I don't understand what Tezzeret does for Thopters that Elspeth and Jace already don't.

[neckfire]

Check out his new version,you play 4 counterbalace 4 ethersworn canonist in the sb

And what tezzeret does is give you a combo kill out of nowhere.

[bum_man]

Hi All,

I am planning to play this deck in a big tourney during the weekend and I am having difficulty in designing my sideboard. Could the vets of this deck give me tips regarding the sideboard plan? A few concerns I have are:

Is Krosan Grip needed in the sb or could 2 aura of silences in the board take care of null rods and needles, as well as, being a good sb card vs enchantress which is a top 8 staple where I play.

I play 2 spouts main because of the high volume of zoo and merfolk deck where I play. I only play 3 tops, 2 counterspells, and 3 enlightened tutors. The logic was that I replaced them with sweepers like EE and firespouts as a means to handle fast aggro where counterspells and the counter-top combo is weak. I commonly play against these decks, and this how I compensate for not having moat in my 75. Does this make sense?

Also what are the common bad match-ups for this deck so I would be wary of what decks I should be prepared for. Though I haven't experienced lop-sided loses with the deck, I seem to have noticed that I encounter difficulty against decks like Rock, Thresh Variants, Team America, as well as other decks that's main game plan is to keep me off being able to establish a favorable board position. What other decks did I miss?

Thanks for the inputs guys!

[The Treefolk Master]

@sdematt: haven't you considered cutting 1 Undeground Sea for a Swamp or another Island? Are the 3 black duals really necessary?

[sdematt]

Wasn't sure if 3 were necessary, but I liked having them. I'm sure it could easily be changed, though, since my black count is low.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Check out his new version,you play 4 counterbalace 4 ethersworn canonist in the sb

And what tezzeret does is give you a combo kill out of nowhere.

The list you referenced was http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=21286. Linking a list, then discussing something other than the linked list doesn't really help. I still don't know which list you're referring to.

Also, if we were going to be using cards regardless of Tezzeret's inclusion, that'd be one thing. Jace is a great example of being able to stick 1-2 maindeck and not altering a single thing about the deck; manabase, spell set, etc remains exactly the same. Tezzeret is the exact opposite, you need to include janky stuff like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal/Mirrodin lands in order to justify his inclusion. You also start opening yourself up to non-basic hate, something that is a major strength of traditional UWx Thopters.

I suppose the question becomes; how many games do I win using Tezz's ultimate versus how many games I lose because my opponent's non-basic hate keeping me off mana and the fact that Chrome Mox/Mox Opal are largely useless (assuming Tezz is not in play). Also, the absense of Counterbalance maindeck leaves you at a disadvantage in the mirror and against aforementioned decks.

[RandomTask]

The list you referenced was http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=21286. Linking a list, then discussing something other than the linked list doesn't really help. I still don't know which list you're referring to.

Also, if we were going to be using cards regardless of Tezzeret's inclusion, that'd be one thing. Jace is a great example of being able to stick 1-2 maindeck and not altering a single thing about the deck; manabase, spell set, etc remains exactly the same. Tezzeret is the exact opposite, you need to include janky stuff like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal/Mirrodin lands in order to justify his inclusion. You also start opening yourself up to non-basic hate, something that is a major strength of traditional UWx Thopters.

I suppose the question becomes; how many games do I win using Tezz's ultimate versus how many games I lose because my opponent's non-basic hate keeping me off mana and the fact that Chrome Mox/Mox Opal are largely useless (assuming Tezz is not in play). Also, the absense of Counterbalance maindeck leaves you at a disadvantage in the mirror and against aforementioned decks.

I played a modified version of this list in SCG Boston. I started off beating affinity, then losing to Merfolk while at 39 life because he ripped the Lord of Atlantis (I know, it happens, I'm not complaining, just saying how I lost), then realing off a few wins in a row. I also dropped a round to Team America, which should be a good matchup, but my Top just didn't get me there (no fetchlands/shuffle effects, etc. etc.), and was sitting at 6-2 in the last round before being paired against Eli Kassis, who happens to be a pretty decent player for those that don't know, and we had tested the matchup earlier--it was terrible for me, especially considering the voluminous amount of hate he had post board.

Anyways, enough about that, and onto responding to these comments. Ironically enough, Eli also looked through my deck the day before and we made some changes, including adding 1 basic Island over 1 Chrome Mox, changing 1 Enlightened Tutor to 1 Lim Dul's Vault (extra blue cards for Force) and taking out 1 Jace to maindeck a Counterbalance (I also ran 3 more in the board, but no Ethersworn Cannonists). So, my list was quite similar, although not exact.

I, too, am confused by the comment about Tezzeret being there specifically for aggro decks, but we'll get to that. The main advantage of this build, in my opinion, is that it is more proactive than the countertop build. Allow me to elaborate: the reason that you run both Tezzeret, and the artifact packages, is so that the deck can deploy the combo more reliably and quicker than the old list. Against aggro, they most likely have nothing other than maybe a Pridemage or a Vindicate to stop you from assembling Thopter/Sword game 1. The Moxen and artifact lands serve to help you accelerate it out, rather than casting them later on in the game, and even needing to tutor for them. This deck regularly deploys the combo by turn 3, but can have it on turn 2 with the right hand. This lessons the reliance on lockpieces (which I might add can also be dropped significantly earlier in this version), and allows you to assume control of the game at a much higher rate of speed and frequency. This gives you an increased edge in otherwise extremely close matchups. For example, I played against burn twice, and was only able to get there thanks to my fast assembly of the combo. It's also better against the "cat sligh" versions of zoo. Casting a Humility on turn 4 doesn't do nearly as much against those types of decks as either having the combo in operation, or casting Humility a turn (or 2) sooner, which is entirely possible. So, the point of the artifact acceleration is to be faster and more proactive. I don't think that is totally surprising, but you, arsenal, seem to miss that advantage of this build.

Additionally, the Moxen help you to play around land disruption a bit more than you might think. Achieving metalcraft is an absolute certainty with this deck, and it often occurs on turn 1 or 2. A Wasteland might set that back a turn, but chances are that this will also allow you more time to develop since they spent the turn disrupting you rather than applying pressure.

Tezzeret, I think, fulfills two functions quite nicely in the deck: 1) he helps you assemble the combo, or locate a needed lockpiece with greater regularity (e.g. casting him on turn 3, impulsing for your missing piece, and then comboing off); and 2) providing an alternate win condition under more pressured circumstances. It is also not uncommon to use him to find more artifact lands. If you've ever played with the Thopter/Sword combo, you know that once you've got it, every land you draw helps you tremendously as it provides an additional 2 point life swing per turn (at least). Being able to insure land drops in crucial situations when your life is low is another added bonus. Often, once you have the combo going, you won't want to take the time to cast Tezzeret unless they have some way of preventing you from winning with it (e.g. too many blockers, although this probably never comes up), but you do always have the option of dropping Tezz, fogging for a turn with Thopters, making dudes and ultimating for the win. He is almost always a 1-turn clock in the deck, and is a must-answer regardless of board state. I have also needed to make 5/5's before, and that is not an irrelevant ability. Elspeth accomplishes none of these (accept maybe making blockers/a token, then pumping it to swing), and has no place in this deck.

As far as nonbasic hate being an issue, the only decks where I think it matters significantly are those than can actually assemble a lock with Loam or Crucible, but you can even beat those with Moxen (I beat Mono White Stax with Wasteland/Crucible assembled after Armageddoning my lands in the SCG open). Otherwise, we're talking about decks like Team America, Goblins, and Merfolk. Team America is a really good matchup. They have no way to disrupt your combo besides keeping you off of mana, and they are so threat-light that you can easily buy yourself the time you need to work out of their Stifle/Wasteland. Merfolk is the toughest of the group in that their 1 wasteland can set you back the turn it takes for them to win before you establish control, but they also have no answer to Ensnaring Bridge (except maybe an Echoing Truth or 2 post board). But Merfolk has to have the perfect mix to beat you: fast aggression, timely counterspells, and Wasteland. If they don't have just these things (or if you get into a drawn-out game where you see half your deck but no way to tutor for Ensnaring Bridge, and then they rip their 3rd Lord of Atlantis after you countered one and swordsed one the turn before you're about to kill them) they lose. Same with Goblins. They absolutely have to have Lackey into something sick with you having no answers. Piledriver is troublesome from them, but easily answered enough. The point is that you make the sacrifice of mana stability for greater speed and proactivity, and this tradeoff has a lot of positive effects that outweigh the additional potential of mana disruption in my opinion.

To give you an example of how powerful the mana acceleration is, I played against Tendrils (straight u/b), and drew the nuts game 1. Guess what that is? Turn 1 Counterbalance and Top. Now, I only have a 1-of Counterbalance main, but this is the plan postboard, along with other disruption. You can also turn 1 Thopter Foundry, turn 2 Sword of the Meek-make a dude, which I did against burn in game 3. If you want to mix tutoring in, do the math. It's simple: the deck has much more powerful starts this way. You sacrifice a touch of consistency, and mana stability for brokenness. I'm not the first person to say that Counterbalance isn't good in today's meta. The old deck could afford to sit back and protect itself with Counterbalance. That doesn't work so well anymore. So why not be more proactive if your ability to protect yourself is compromised? Isn't that the natural progression? This deck still has all of the tools available to it that the old one does (lockpieces, one-of answers, etc.), but now it also has speed.

I'll end by reiterating a question asked earlier: what are people's thoughts on Mental Misstep and how it affects this deck? I, for one, am not as sold on this card as others are. I think that it will only shine as a strategy-specific tool, rather than succeed as a broadly-adapted tool. For example, I don't think that this deck wants to play them at all. The only 1 casting cost spell that you're even remotely scared of is Pithing Needle, and that's just an inconvenience. By the way, please don't respond to my question by saying that the reason this deck wants Mental Misstep is to counter other people's Mental Missteps. I reject that theory for a few reasons: 1) the card you're most scared of them countering with it is Top, and while Top is great in this deck, its most important spells are higher on the curve (yes, I know that Brainstorm and Swords and E-Tutor are important, but you won't flat-out lose the game if they get countered under most circumstances, not like they just cast Progenitus and you need a Bridge or you're dead); 2) If they are playing Mental Mistep, they had to take something else out of their deck, be it Daze, Spell Pierce, or even a threat. Once you identify what they sacrificed for the Mistep, you don't have to worry about that card. For example, when you're casting a Jace, you have to worry about Daze, Pierce, and Force. If everyone is playing Misstep, they are going to be lacking at least 1 of those, so even though your earlier curve is hampered, your later curve spells will be easier to set up; 3) The deck (both versions) are already card disadvantageous enough without running a situational 4-of (for the countertop version, Misstep might make more sense given that 1-drops give the deck serious problems); 4) It simply isn't worth sacrificing 4 other cards in the deck for Missteps. The large number of Thopters and Swords are for redundancy and speed. You lose this when you cut some number of them. I'm already at 2 Jaces because I main a Counterbalance, so that's not an option. I've already covered the artifact acceleration and the Tezzerets. What's left? Your tutors? Your tutor targets? I guess my question is how do you think other decks (Merfolk, specifically, as I think they are the scariest Misstep deck, with Team America variants, and possibly Bant variants as the other archetypes most likely to benefit from the card) will peform against this list with Misstep, and does this, in general, make the deck less viable and, if so, by how much?

[Arsenal]

Wouldn't have Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Counterbalance against Burn have gotten there? That's pretty much how I've beaten Burn, regardless of the deck that I was running CounterTop in (Supreme Blue, Bant, etc). ThopterSword assembled early is fantastic, but you make it sound as though that's the only out versus Burn in the early game, which it is not. But since you don't run 4 Counterbalance, I suppose you'd have to rely on early ThopterSword to beat Burn.

I understand the concept of mana acceleration, I just don't agree that it should come at the expense of basic lands. Also, Elspeth is a win condition entirely independent of the rest of your deck, which imo, is an asset, not a drawback as you've implied.

[obituary 95]

radome task, you made good and excellent points but I do say that I disagree with you. in regards to say your commit about tezzeret . I am sure the card is good but does it not take up to much economic card space and in all reality is not worth it. you also say that he makes the deck less reactive and more proactive and I am sure he does . but you must keep in mind that mana is like power plants in times of war . if your country does not have the resources to commit to the charge and to the assault then you will not be in the war that long.

also in my testing you really do not need tezeret to assemble the combo in fact i have been playing the counter top version with a 4/3 split and it has been doing marvelously .

on the side of mental misstep, I do agree some sentiment on this front however I do think that some versions of the deck need to play this spell because it is such a efficient way to deal with cards such as vial or just stupid things like wild nacatl. in your version of the deck mental misstep does not belong. and I also think that mental misstep is not really the control messiah that it has been made out to be . it is only exceptionally good in only a few decks eg landstill and probably some type of tempo decks, and to be honest anyone saying that this card will be played in aggro decks are probably doing something Illegal in there free time. I do not think goblins wants this for the same reason it does not want the trap. and all of zoos cards are really interchangeable due to there power and just pure repetition

[ivanpei]

I'm with most of the other posters here. Tezzeret 2.0 is the epitome of "in danger of cool things". The weak manabase, Multiple Opal draws, dodgy metalcraft enablers (it's going to be pretty hard to maintain metalcraft vs a bunch of wastes/pridemages) all seem like really heavy sacrifices to play Tez. I play 3 walkers (Jace TMS) and it already seems like alot of Gas for me.

I learned alot of things while playing the Gearheart lists and that list does have its merits. For example, being proactive-> reactive. I agree on this point. So I just upped by Thopther sword split to 4/2 and upped by bridges to 2 while playing no Counters other than Force. I achieved the same "proactiveness" without exposing myself to the weaknesses I mentioned above. Just check out my list from the previous page. It runs 10 basics, and consistently ramps up to 3/4 lands without having to drop a single dual.

[RandomTask]

I'm with most of the other posters here. Tezzeret 2.0 is the epitome of "in danger of cool things". The weak manabase, Multiple Opal draws, dodgy metalcraft enablers (it's going to be pretty hard to maintain metalcraft vs a bunch of wastes/pridemages) all seem like really heavy sacrifices to play Tez. I play 3 walkers (Jace TMS) and it already seems like alot of Gas for me.

I learned alot of things while playing the Gearheart lists and that list does have its merits. For example, being proactive-> reactive. I agree on this point. So I just upped by Thopther sword split to 4/2 and upped by bridges to 2 while playing no Counters other than Force. I achieved the same "proactiveness" without exposing myself to the weaknesses I mentioned above. Just check out my list from the previous page. It runs 10 basics, and consistently ramps up to 3/4 lands without having to drop a single dual.

One thing that I want to be clear about is that I'm not certain that the deck plays the artifact lands and opals, etc. to justify Tezz's inclusion; I actually think that once you make those steps the Tezz inclusion seems natural. I will undoubtedly be playing some version of this deck in Providence, and determining which version is best is important, so I'm interested in your comments, and this discussion. Tezz is definitely on the borderline of the legacy power threshold, but he's at least as good as Elspeth, I think. I played Elspeth pretty much the whole time she was in standard, so don't mistake my disregard for her for the deck as lack of acknowledgment of her power. But, to be honest, I didn't even play her in the straight up countertop version. I started out trying to play her, but I just wasn't impressed enough. There are very few decks that she is great against (for example, Goblins and Merfolk plan on swarming; one blocker per turn doesn't help with this problem), and you can't even pump a token and beat under a bridge, although she's definitely good under Humility. I will say that if you go in the artifacts direction, I still think Tezz makes more sense because he pretty much never misses, and because they have to answer him or they just die.

In response to using him to assemble Thopter/Sword, I agree that he is not necessary to do this, but he does make it easier if you don't have a tutor. When you say that you "ramp up" to 3/4 lands, what you mean is that you play them in consecutive turns. This is great, and the deck can definitely still function that way, but the artifacts version actually ramps its mana, and will have 3/4 mana by turn 2/3 with high frequency. When I played the countertop version, one of my favorite aspects of it was the relative immunity to mana disruption, and the ability to play cards like Blood Moon or Back to Basics to disrupt others mana. This is certainly an advantage, and one worth a great deal of consideration. In response to the burn comment, playing Counterbalance on turn 2 is still good, but you have to admit it's still better on turn 1. Assuming that you need either a fast combo assembly or countertop by turn 2 against burn, which is probably close to true, I think that the artifact version is more likely to be able to accomplish these things.

After some thought, I actually think that Mental Misstep goes straight into the countertop build. The basic fundamental point of my argument is that being proactive is currently better considering the meta, which makes the artifact version more appealing, but I do expect some changes post-rotation, for sure, and I think that Misstep could potentially prevent the need to be as proactive as I want to be now. It answers many problems with not being as proactive, for sure. What I'm worried about, and what I think is worth thinking about is how decks will react to Misstep being a part of the game. If they are now more worried about resolving 1-drops, do they shift focus to bigger spells (e.g. Green Sun's Zenith) in order to counteract the effects of Misstep, or do they just accept that Misstep exists, and try to fight through it? The thing is, if they shift their focus slightly, making Misstep worse, then the natural progression is to also make Counterbalance worse because they will push further along the curve. And if this happens, then I think that being more proactive is still the preferable strategy. But, if they just keep the same constructions, then maybe Misstep makes Counterbalance good again, and the more controlling build is the way to go. I'm not by any means a master at metagaming, but these seem to be the two potential outcomes of the card becomming widely adopted, so your thoughts are welcome.

My end argument is that if it's the case that decks adapt in such a way as to limit the value of Misstep, this naturally limits the value of Counterbalance, and if this occurs, then being more proactive is most likely the favorable strategy. On the other hand, if the card is not properly planned for, then I'd prefer to be on the more controlling side because you've now gained a tool to prevent the things that give you the most trouble from giving you trouble. I am not alone, by the way, in my desire for proactivity, as players such as Adam Barnello or Gearhart himself have also tried to move in that direction. You want to be able to crush aggro decks (except Merfolk will always be tough, obviously, and they get MUCH better with Misstep), and tempo decks, so whichever form of the deck is most likely to be able to achieve this while still maintaning decent matchups otherwise, I'll get behind. I will say that the artifact version is seriously dependant on Top, doesn't have the room or desire for Misstep, and could be seriously hampered by that card if they have it at the right times, but I'm going to stick with it until the rotation at least, and I'll let you know how it goes and if I learn anything else. There's a GPT at Diehard this Sunday, which will be the last tourney I'll play this in (I think) before Misstep becomes leagal, so we'll see how that goes. Also, anyone that's been doing post-rotation testing, feel free to let us know how Misstep has affected your build/game play.

[Arsenal]

One thing that I want to be clear about is that I'm not certain that the deck plays the artifact lands and opals, etc. to justify Tezz's inclusion

I don't share the same uncertainty as you. I am in the camp that unless you're running Tezzeret, you're not naturally running 3-4 Mirrodin lands, 2-3 Chrome Mox, 2-3 Mox Opal as a standard mana/spell base.


I actually think that once you make those steps the Tezz inclusion seems natural.

Of course it "seems natural", because you've now altered your deck to the point where his abilities are now relevant whereas before, they were too conditional and too inconsistent to warrant his inclusion.


I will undoubtedly be playing some version of this deck in Providence, and determining which version is best is important, so I'm interested in your comments, and this discussion.

For wide-open metas where you can expect anything and everything, I think traditional UWx is the way to go. Tournament results also reflect this. I suppose that if you know the meta, specifically aggro-oriented, then a case can be made for UBx Tezzeret, but Providence will be a large, wide-open tourney, not a finely tuned weekly tourney that all the regulars know what to expect.


I will say that if you go in the artifacts direction, I still think Tezz makes more sense because he pretty much never misses, and because they have to answer him or they just die.

Of course Tezzeret will be better in a deck that you're running a high number of questionable artifacts in; all of his abilities are artifact-related. This much is obvious. The question is, why would you run Tezzeret version in the first place? You claim that it should be better due to less reliance on CounterTop, faster combo assembly due to Moxen, and yet, the traditional UWx version is the only version I'm seeing consistently top8/top16. Perhaps this could be because nobody is running the Tezzeret build, or it could be that UWx is just better equipped to deal with a large, diverse field of potential opponents than Tezzeret is. I suppose only time, and tourney results, will tell.


In response to the burn comment, playing Counterbalance on turn 2 is still good, but you have to admit it's still better on turn 1. Assuming that you need either a fast combo assembly or countertop by turn 2 against burn, which is probably close to true, I think that the artifact version is more likely to be able to accomplish these things.

But you're not playing Counterbalance on turn 1 in the first place (again, I'm still using the SCG list neckfire linked until someone links/posts a decklist that they're talking about so I can follow along). Also, by the time I get to untap on turn 3, I should still be at a reasonable life total (10-11 versus normal Burn draws), so I don't agree that I need to have turn 1 Counterbalance in order to live.


...as players such as Adam Barnello

Coincidentally, Nightmare placed 11th at SCG Boston running a slightly unconventional, albeit still traditional UWx ThopterSword deck. Sort of like a hybrid Cawblade-Thopter deck, but it's shell very closely mirrored the traditional UWx Thopters list. No Tezzeret, only 2 Mirrodin lands, no Moxen. Before that, he placed 12th at SCG Edison running a Tezzeret-less list that did run Mox Opal, 5-6 Mirrodin lands, and stuff like LED. As a good player, and someone who has top 16ed with both styles of decks, I'd be interested in getting his take on the advantages/disadvantages of each build.

[Frid]

Talking about the new "free" counterspell, I don't like mental misstep in this deck. I mean, I find it great in other countertop builds with many undercosted creatures, such as dark confidant, tarmogoyf and the like, but in a deck with zero creatures like this I find more valuable to run other cards, such as removal or simply combo pieces or silver bullets. Misstep is a good card that will of course see legacy play, but in decks with at least 8-10 creatures, which will surely benefy from it. I can think of some decks that will highly improve adding this card: Baseruption, TA, Threshold style decks, Merfolks... But in decks like thopters, landstill and any other control deck with few or none creatures and therefore many ways to deal with opposite monsters misstep will not have that much impact. I have personally tested it and I'm 90% sure I won't play it in my thopters list in the big BoM in France next month.

[Arsenal]

Being able to stop Aether Vial and opposing Tops (I think we're going to see an uptick in CounterTop decks while the MM experimentation is ongoing) is enough for me to run it. Other 1cc spells are relevant too (Imp, Nacatl, etc), but there's almost nothing I hate worse than seeing a turn 1 Vial or turn 1 Top and I'm not holding FoW.

[Frid]

The issue with misstep is that it's great in your initial hand, but in this deck it sucks after turn 3 99% percent of the time. In decks with creatures you can still use it in the midgame to defend them from removal and get a more or less quick win from there, which is nice, but here you got no creatures to defend and that's a big difference. That's why I like the card in nassif's style countertop builds but not here. Imagine you get two of them in your initial 7 and your opponent plays land-go or a weak turn 1 like ponder, you will have switched useful cards from your maindeck for a card that will do nothing or a poor 1 for 1 the whole game.
Personally, the more controllish the deck is, the less I like situational cards.

[neckfire]

The list you referenced was http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=21286. Linking a list, then discussing something other than the linked list doesn't really help. I still don't know which list you're referring to.

Also, if we were going to be using cards regardless of Tezzeret's inclusion, that'd be one thing. Jace is a great example of being able to stick 1-2 maindeck and not altering a single thing about the deck; manabase, spell set, etc remains exactly the same. Tezzeret is the exact opposite, you need to include janky stuff like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal/Mirrodin lands in order to justify his inclusion. You also start opening yourself up to non-basic hate, something that is a major strength of traditional UWx Thopters.

I suppose the question becomes; how many games do I win using Tezz's ultimate versus how many games I lose because my opponent's non-basic hate keeping me off mana and the fact that Chrome Mox/Mox Opal are largely useless (assuming Tezz is not in play). Also, the absense of Counterbalance maindeck leaves you at a disadvantage in the mirror and against aforementioned decks.

i linked that list,then this past weekend the new version received press,i wasnt going to talk about the new version as i have not revieved word to do so.but once drew did a deck check it didnt matter.

[ivanpei]

I'm on the fence here regarding Misstep in Thopthers. I sadly believe however, that we HAVE to play it. If you haven't noticed, misstep is devastating against us. It shuts down Top and most importantly Enlightened tutor. Going combo heavy is no longer a good idea post Misstep because aggro decks now have a way of disrupting the combo. We need Misstep to Force through our own Spells and also to stop Vials and the like. Even if we play no targets for STP, we absolutely need it to stay on top of other quick decks.

Having said this though, the more conditional counters we run, the worst Bridge gets. Ever Slammed a bridge and then drew Spell Snare, Spell Pierce/ Force? Yup, been there. It sucks. I'm going to drop down to a Counter-top centric plan with less Combo components and concentrate on being reactive. It's back to Missteps, Counterspells and Jace FTW again.

[mossivo1986]

Ivan. MM would be terrible in this deck for the reasons you mentioned. Running a card because everyone else is playing the cards isn't a reason to run a card. Your better off actually trying to play to your game plan, or rather winning the game....

[ivanpei]

You may be right but Misstep hoses us, badly! I'll test both reactive lists with Misstep and Proactive lists without Misstep. Will update with findings.

[Frid]

You can always play intuition over enlightened tutor to be more misstep proof

[Dalapin]

New to legacy, been lurking for a few months, etc.

If mental misstep isn't for us, what about Gitaxian Probe? Knowing if it's safe to run out your combo (CB or Thopters) seems relevant.

[Justin]

Gitaxian Probe doesn't make sense for this deck. Although Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry is technically a combo, it is quite slow and the life loss is relevent. This is really much more of a control deck than a combo deck. Probe works best in fast combo decks that would like to effectively thin their deck to 56 via a "free" cantrip. This deck is a toolbox deck and doesn't have room to play a card like Probe.

[Arsenal]

i linked that list,then this past weekend the new version received press,i wasnt going to talk about the new version as i have not revieved word to do so.but once drew did a deck check it didnt matter.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. You linked a decklist for us to discuss. I started to discuss it. You then started to discuss a different decklist that apparently I should know about, even though it wasn't linked/posted in this thread.

Anyway, I'm a strong believer that MM belongs in this deck. I don't agree that MM is only good in your opening hand as an opponent's turn 5 Top can be just as devastating as a turn 1 Top if the gamestate is such that you're both scrapping for advantage. Also, MM isn't a conditional counter that gets worse over time like Daze is, so it can most definitely still be 100% effective no matter what turn it's played on, the opponent just needs to play a 1cc spell... which they will do past turn 1.

[obituary 95]

I am still on the fence about this card , i went from loving it to its ok. the real problum with this card is that a lot of time the 1cc spells will tend to be less relevent after turn one or two. and the card also only stops aggro decks from curving out on turn one. the card also start losing lots of value when your opponent can play a lot of little dudes and deploy them in one turn .

I also sort of have to retract my statement about it not being good in aggro decks . I played agginst a goblins player who had it md and he just started blowing me out. so to get back on topic here maybe the card should be part of a 2/2 split with counterspell or spell snare . but I do not think that this card is a auto four of becuse you just lose so much value in the mid game.

in fact mental misstep in my oppinion is not really a control card it is almost like a silver bullet card that rewards decks for being proactive .and allows creature decks to play around and through certin control cards.

The other problum with this card is that it does not shore up the weeknesses counterbalence has . which makes me ask the question should we just cut counterbalence completly and just put it in the board.

[Arsenal]

Counterbalance decks main weakness is Aether Vial. MM can answer Aether Vial. Now, yes, I understand that Aether Vial players can/will also run MM, but that's besides the point. Other than FoW, which we already run, there is no other card that can deal with Aether Vial when we're on the draw.

Pithing Needle can "deal" with it, but you're tapping turn 1 mana for Needle instead of Top, and it doesn't actually do anything if the opponent goes, Goblin Tinkerer -> Pithing Needle... vomit my hand?

[RandomTask]

I've got to be honest; I never clicked on the link that sparked this initial conversation, so I'm not sure what it's to, but in case there's lingering confusion, I'm playing almost Gearhart's 75, with some slight modifications.

Post board, the nut Counterbalance + Top hand is: artifact land, Mox Opal, Top, Chrome Mox, card to pitch, Counterbalance. Which is turn 1 Counterbalance + Top. The Chrome Mox isn't always there, but you can still turn 2 Counterbalance + Top activation, which is actually reasonably consistant, and better than the straight countertop version.

The Tezz question might be a chicken or egg thing, or it might be that Gearhart moved to the artifact base specifically to play to Tezz's strengths, I'm not sure as I can't ask him. The artifact lands and Moxen have been tried by others (you even mention Barnello's Edison list) without Tezz, so I think it's reasonable to assert that faster mana is a legitimate deckbuilding pursuit without necessarily intending on building to Tezz's strengths. Doesn't really matter either way; the point is that Tezz does function well in that build, which is why he's in it.

You might be right that the traditional shell, plus maybe some Missteps is the way to go, but it's at least worth considering both options. Have you played the Gearhart version? It's not without its merrit, I think. Anyways, I'm playing in a GPT this weekend in Providence (I think I mentioned that), so I'll have some more feedback, and immediately following that I'll be shifting my focus to post-rotation testing.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Hello guys. I hate counterbalance so I am trying a list that plays chalice of the void instead? I know it is a nontraditional list but I am wondering what you think. Cliques are flex spots and I know jeweled amulet is weird but I like it so far.

3 The Abyss
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Force of Will

4 Lotus Petal

3 Jeweled Amulet
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Island
4 Underground Sea

4 City of Traitors

3 Ancient Tomb

2 Vault of Whispers
3 Darkwater Catacombs

SB:
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Transmute Artifact
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Mindbreak Trap

[obituary 95]

Counterbalance decks main weakness is Aether Vial. MM can answer Aether Vial. Now, yes, I understand that Aether Vial players can/will also run MM, but that's besides the point. Other than FoW, which we already run, there is no other card that can deal with Aether Vial when we're on the draw.

Pithing Needle can "deal" with it, but you're tapping turn 1 mana for Needle instead of Top, and it doesn't actually do anything if the opponent goes, Goblin Tinkerer -> Pithing Needle... vomit my hand?

ok so now lets think and lets look at some of the decks that run aethier vial. hmm ok so fish runs it and in general has maybe elleven targets . 7 of which probably wont matter. ok now lets look at another aethier vial deck. now lets look at goblins. so they have eight spells that cost one mana . 4 of which you can swords and can block.

now lets get real if the only thing that we want mm to counter is vial in the early game then there really isnt any reason to play it. becuse yes it helps you survive the early game but the card gets substanshionally worse in the midgame. and by the late game the card is just blank.

you are right about aethier vial being one of counterbalences main weekness but the other weekness is that players have started to change up there curves to get around the balence. this card also has the ability to make balence even worse if players start playing less one drops

[Arsenal]

Thopters is one of the CounterTop decks actually the best suited to combat opponent's varied mana curves due to our E Tutor and the multiple 3cc and 4cc artifact/enchantments we can fetch. Not only do we have Top and Brainstorm like every other CoutnerTop deck out there, but we have a RELIABLE method of getting 3cc and 4cc spells to the top of our deck at a moment's notice. This is a huge, huge advantage that Thopters has over other CounterTop decks imo.

[obituary 95]

yes but you have to admit that after you e tutor for your three to four mana cost card you have to keep it on top in the fear of another three to four mana cost cards. so in all reality that tactic is not really for the long game it is just a stop gap

[Arsenal]

How many spells is your opponent playing that are all 3cc and 4cc turn after consecutive turn? Of those, how many do you care about? I mean, I suppose context is important here; if I have a Humility in play, I don't care if my opponent plays Knight of the Reliquary. If I have a Jace in play, and my opponent plays Oblivion Ring, I probably want to E Tutor for Vedalken Shackles/Oblivion Ring in that situation. Also, you're not taking into account the 3cc/4cc spells that you're tutoring up will most likely deal with whatever 3cc/4cc spell your opponent is playing. Opponent plays KotR, you E Tutor Vedalken Shackles, counter his KotR. Your opponent now may be less inclined to just run his Rhox War Monk out there next turn. Or if your opponent plays Goblin Ringleader, you E Tutor for Moat/Humility, counter his Ringleader. Your opponent needs to alphastrike you RIGHT NOW, you they're lose when you slam down Moat next turn. Again, this is all context sensitive, but these are all commonly played cards in commonly played matchups that will arise.

But the point I'm trying to make is that we already have all the tools available to other CounterTop decks (Top, Brainstorm, Jace 2.0 Brainstorm) in order to manipulate the top of our deck PLUS we have E Tutor. Varied mana curves are less of a worry than an opponent's Turn 1 Vial when I'm on the draw.

[grahf]

These lists without Counterbalance and with Tezz 2.0 + more artifacts are taking the deck in a pretty different direction. Those who are promoting such might want to start a new thread for it, both to reduce thread confusion and to focus deck development.

The thread's title pretty clearly states "Countertop," I don't have an opinion on which direction is better, it's just that there will be endless ideological debates getting in the way of actual development if we try to accomadate Countertop and sans-Countertop in the same thread. IMO.

[DFY889]

yes but you have to admit that after you e tutor for your three to four mana cost card you have to keep it on top in the fear of another three to four mana cost cards. so in all reality that tactic is not really for the long game it is just a stop gap

If you're sandbagging a card for multiple turns on top, how is that not playing for the long game? I frequently e-tutor for a blank, flip counterbalance, then shuffle. That line is more "stop gap" I suppose, but it is a perfectly valid line of play. You're still trading 1-for-1, and enlightened tutor is mana efficient.

Plus, I think this deck has pretty significant advantages over most other decks if and when the game does go long.

[RandomTask]

Both decks run Counterbalance. But you're right that they're pretty different, too.

[Dalapin]

As someone strictly lurking to learn about NOT-tezzeret decklist, I'm all for 2 separate threads.

[sdematt]

So I took Top 3 (same score due to breakers) at weekly Legacy.

I'll do a quick report.

Round 1: Dan with TES

Game 1, I set up CounterTop and wreck him. He can't get any relevant spells through, then I force him into Empty the Warrens path by selective counterspells. I then drop the EE and he scoops. Sad for Dan, he's a great Storm pilot, but drew land after land and I sculpted his Storm path.

Game 2, I side in Cannonist, Crypt, Extirpate, Spellbomb, and Arcane Lab for irrelevant creature removal. I counter key cards, then Extirpate LED by mistake (I counter LED instead of the Tutor he had, as I was a bit on edge. I knew he had it, but I just slammed Force out of habit). Anyway, I rid him of LED and he tries to slowly rebuild. I drop Lab, but he bounces a few turns in a row. I eventually stabilize and counter a desperate Tutor attempt on his part. Then, I Jace him out. He scoops.

1-0

Round 2: Gavin with Affinity

I knew it was Affinity going in. He starts slow for Affinity, and I get a few decent draws. Eventually, he has multiple guys and drops Master of Etherium. I tutor for Humility, and get Thopter foundry, eating my useless Needles and Seat of the Synod. I hold on and he drops Tezzeret, turning a dude into a 5/5. I Needle it the next turn, and I also Top into the Sword of the Meek. I make a ton of guys and get out of the 5-life range, and puke Thopters. He scoops when he can't Affinity me out.

Game 2, I board in Serenity, Arcane Laboratory, Energy Flux. He goes turn 1: Darksteel Citadel, 4 Ornithopter, Mox Opal, pass turn. I act like I'm fucked, and drop turn 1 Top and EE @ 0. He cries, then topdecks the Needle. I cringe, then drop Serenity. what a blowout. I rebuild faster than he does, and I just Humility/Moat lock him. Jace wins it for me.

2-0

Round 3: James with U/R Painter

Since Humility doesn't play nice with Painter, I know I'm going to get hosed. I manage to counter, Swords, Needle, and combo, but he draws like a champion and busts out the combo.

Game 2, the same thing happens. I counter him to high heaven, but he boards in 6 Blasts and fucks me up with Painter online under Humility. What a beating.

2-1

Round 4: James (Plague Sliver) with NLT

Again, it comes down to me Humiliating him and Needling Jace, then going for the Combo.

Game 2, similar events occur and I take it home.

3-1

-------

I place 3rd on 3-1, but I get third due to breakers. I get $10 credit for my efforts.

Props: Ensaring Bridge, sideboarding for poor people (Affinity and Dredge). It's like throwing change at hobos, it's so wrong, but feels so right. I feel the deck is strong against inexpensive decks and Storm.

Slops: Layer 6 and Layer 4 screwing me over. Humility should Humiliate a Painter's Servant, but it doesn't.

-Matt

[C Rayz Walz]

haha that last line was awesome. Can you post you list?

[neckfire]

so honest question,does mental mistep kill this deck?
seems like in the Uw version's you dont really have room for MM and MM does shut down the silver bullet tutor package.

[Arsenal]

UW version has 7 flex spots to tinker with, we most certainly have room for 0-4 Mental Misstep. CounterTop and Mental Misstep can help combat opponent's Mental Missteps. If you don't have any countermagic at all, then it wouldn't really matter if your opponent cast Counterspell or Mental Misstep on your E Tutor as you had no way to push it through.

[sdematt]

Sorry, Mother's Day got me sidetracked.

My list was:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
5 Island
2 Plains

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Top
2 Counterbalance
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce/Mental Misstep
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Board:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Warmth
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Arcane Laboratory
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity

My thoughts are I'd definitely love at least another Bridge main. It's my go-to lockpiece, to be frank.


@ Mental Misstep

I'm not going to stop running cards because they MIGHT get countered, otherwise I'd just run infinite Blurred Mongeese, Vexing Shushers, or some other garbage. Force of Will is more rampant than MM, yet I still play counterable cards. My word!

-Matt

[Frid]

If you're that worried about mental misstep (which can be a pain in the ass, not that much on enlightened tutor but specially on your stp as my testing showed), you can simply play intuition over enlightened tutor.
I don't think this deck should run mental misstep at all, neither as it is nor as an answer to opposite missteps. The best decks for misstep are blue creature based decks, for example daze+wasteland based decks or countertop builds with at least 12 creatures, because misstep is at its best a turn 1 answer AND a removal answer for the further turns, not just an answer for their turn 1 vial or top. And we run zero creatures, so misstep won't perform as its best here.

[sdematt]

Well, I've got 3 Extra slots with Spell Pierce, and with all the creatures in the format, nixing a Vial to give me time to set up could be fine.

-Matt

[ivanpei]

@ Matt, grats on doing well with the deck! Little nitpick on the affinity MU, I don't think you should have dropped the EE T1, since he did not thoughtseize you, that means he doesn't have it. He may have pierce T1 ready and he could needle (and did) your EE. I always drop an EE only when I am ready to blow it.

Btw I don't think Misstep hurts this deck that much if you aim to be less dependant on Enlightened ie: play more Bridges. Having said that I don't think we should run Misstep in this deck as we don't need to hit STPs and conditional counters hurt Bridge's ability to lock down dudes. I prefer to just run most permanents with only Force as my counter. Here's a post Misstep list:

4 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Tutor
4 STP

3 Jace TMS
3 Bridge (Best card in deck, want to draw it naturally)
1 Moat
1 O ring
4 Thopther
2 Sword

2 Tundra
8 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Strand
4 Misty
1 Heath

No frills, simple and straight forward. We just ignore Vial/Dudes/Misstep by just running out as much permanents as possible. The deck is less flexible, but we can leave the bullets and conditional counters in the board.

[Dalapin]

@ Matt, loved your post :-) Keep them coming if you can, they are really helpful. However it's layers 5 and 6 that are screwing you over ^.^

[RogueMTG]

Sorry, Mother's Day got me sidetracked.

My list was:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
5 Island
2 Plains

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Top
2 Counterbalance
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce/Mental Misstep
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Board:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Warmth
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Arcane Laboratory
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity

My thoughts are I'd definitely love at least another Bridge main. It's my go-to lockpiece, to be frank.


@ Mental Misstep

I'm not going to stop running cards because they MIGHT get countered, otherwise I'd just run infinite Blurred Mongeese, Vexing Shushers, or some other garbage. Force of Will is more rampant than MM, yet I still play counterable cards. My word!

-Matt

I've been testing out your list for the past few days with some very nice results, and will probably be taking something nearly identical to a local event soon. So thanks!

My one suggestion is Rule of Law over Arcane Laboratory in the board, as TES/Charblecher run often run Pyroblasts post-board.

[sdematt]

Ah, I totally forgot about that. Then yes, Rule of Law would be better.

Concerning Tezzeret, one good thing is he lets you win in two turns under a resolved Humility + Moat, instead of Jace taking a million years. If need be, he can race an opposing Jace, a pithing Needle on your Jace, and isn't killed by Jace legend rules. If I do in fact do that, take my list and do -1 Counterspell -1 Pithing Needle +2 Tezzeret, and the sideboard would be +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Needle -1 Cannonist (doesn't stop Affinity at all...) -1 E. Plague.

I've also changed my sideboard just a tad because I love Ensnaring Bridge *this* much. Even if I don't put Tezzy in, I'd still change my sideboard to include another Bridge at the cost of a Plague. Merfolk has to scoop to Bridge if they have a Lord down :P

-Matt

[puppektion]

I've been toying around with this deck for a little bit. Basically ripped the core list from the Standstill build from the opening post, but had to switch the sideboard around a bit. The list:

4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Spell Snare
1x Argivian Find

4x Counterbalance
3x Standstill
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek

1x Ensnaring Bridge

2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Humility

4x Force of Will

1x Engineered Explosives

4x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Plains
1x Snow-Covered Plains

Sideboard:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Propaganda
2x Hibernation
2x Meddling Mage
2x Path to Exile
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Hanna's Custody

I played today in a local event (Only 8 people, but decent prizes, so nobody was really fucking around) and placed first overall, going 4-1 in rounds and 8-3 in games.

Round 1 - Nick with Mono-Red Storm.

I've played this matchup before, with a variety of decks. It's got some crazy redundancy (he's using Empty the Warrens + Burning Wish, Storm Entity and Dragon Storm) and can randomly explode into a wild turn 1-2 "Surprise! 16 Goblin Tokens *and* Goblin War Strike your face".

Game 1, I messed up. I was able to stall for a few turns by using Spell Snare on one of his rituals, but eventually he got his ETW off for 8 tokens, which wouldn't have been that bad if I had remembered that I had EE for an Enlightened Tutor target (I had a few drinks with lunch). His tokens just raped my face.

Sideboard: -3 Swords, -1 Humility, +2 Propaganda, +2 Meddling Mage.

Game 2, I kept a hand featuring Top, Counterbalance, Force of Will + Blue card, and 3 lands. I go turn 1 Tundra => Top. He goes turn 1, Mountain, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Desperate Ritual (I try to respond with a Force of Will), he Red Blasts it, Seething Song, Empty the Warrens for 14 Tokens. I died hard.

Record: 0-1 (0-2 for games)


Round 2: Anthony with Geddon Staxx

I didn’t like the idea of this matchup going in. The idea of Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle just terrified me. However, I was pleasantly surprised with how it ended up going.

Game 1, I lucked out and was able to Spell Snare his Chalice at 1, Force for Trinisphere, and an eventual EE for 3 to wipe out his Crucible and Ghostly Prison. Humility was able to stop Magus from ruining my day, and even through Smokestack + Geddon, I was able to recover (Particularly due to the EE eating his board after he dropped the Stack). Eventually Gifts for Foundry, Sword, Find and Ruins gave me what I needed to finish the game.

Sideboard: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Standstill +3 Grip, +2 Tormod’s Crypt
Game 2 was a bit more terrifying. He opens up, Mishra’s Factory, Mox Diamond (pitching a plains), Phyrexian Revoker (naming Foundry). I breathed a sigh of relief as he didn’t name Top. Over the next couple turns, he was stuck on 2 lands, but was still beating face for 4 each turn. Eventually I was able to KGrip the Revoker and land a factory of my own to slow the game down. Counterbalance eventually locked the game out when I had both a Humility and a KGrip on top. He scooped once he saw them both.)

Record: 1-1 (2-2 for games)


Round 3: Melissa with Burn
I wasn’t terribly concerned. She was still a little new to the game, but was loaned a competitive burn deck and actually faired pretty well overall. However, Counterbalance + Top, as well as Foundry + Sword really does a number on the deck.

Game 1: Landing counterbalance wins games. Swordsing Hellsparks and Keldon Marauders always seems like a good call to me. In the end, counterbalance + top with one Factory won it for me. The fact that I’m apparently the “luckiest son of a bitch” when it comes to counterbalance also helped significantly.

Sideboard: -1 Humility, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Path to Exile

Game 2, the pressure was on right from the start. She opened up with a turn 1 Goblin Guide, swings in, and I reveal a Sword of the Meek. Not terrible, but not great. I opened up Tundra go, she drew, bolted me and swung in again. I brainstormed with the Guide’s trigger on the stack to sneak an extra draw in. The next couple turns consisted of me dropping top and Foundry, and eventually dropping Sword and just winning from there.

Record: 2-1 (4-2 for games)


Round 4: Tim with UGr NO
The games started to blend together, but a good chunk of countermagic, Counterbalance, and EE + Academy ruins really put a damper on his game plan. Game 2, Ensnaring Bridge left him beating face with an Exalted Dryad Arbor, but EE slowly killed off his board. Gifts grabbing missing the Thopter/Sword pieces ended the game pretty hard.

Sideboard: -3 Standstill, -1 Spell Snare, +2 Hibernation, +2 KGrip (He had mentioned Energy Flux before the tournament started)

Record: 3-1 (6-2 for games)


Round 5: Nick with Mono-R Goblins
Game 1: I was able to stall out until I landed Humility, only to be stuck with a Thopter Foundry in play, no ways of recurring it and no way of finding Sword of the Meek.

Sideboard: -3 Standstill, -1 Island, +2 Propaganda, +2 Path

Games 2 and 3: Ensnaring bridge is pretty solid once they’ve landed their second Goblin Chieftain. Eventually, a combination of Ensnaring Bridge, Propaganda in one game, Humility and Propaganda in the other, was able to lock out the game. EEing away Lackey and Vial is incredibly useful, as is effectively having 6 swords.

Ending record: 4-1 (8-3 for games)

In the end, I only had a couple thoughts:
Sideboard: I used every card in my sideboard but Wheel of Sun and Moon and Hanna’s Custody. I’m not sure If they’re unnecessary or if it just wasn’t right for the metagame.
Spell Snare: I like it, but I wonder if here, it’s better suited as Mental Misstep (especially in a deck that can abuse Standstill)

I dunno… that’s what I’ve got for now. Thoughts? Questions? Concerns?

[Dalapin]

@puppektion

Given this list feels like a combination of Landstill and regular Countertop Thopters, what do you feel that this list does better/worse than the either of the regular lists? i.e. Why play this list?

Was Jace not in because of availability or do you have a more specific reason?

Your opinion of Intuition vs. Gifts Ungiven?

Lastly, any neat tricks this deck can pull? (e.g. things that may not be apparent to us that haven't played the deck)

[sdematt]

Tezz gives you another win con under Humility and Moat, because if you pump out Thopter Tokens, even though they can't attack, they'll count towards Tezzeret's ultimate ability :)

Also, Ensnaring Bridge ruins Merfolk, as their own lords work against them.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Tezz gives you another win con under Humility and Moat

But doesn't Elspeth do this too?

[(nameless one)]

But doesn't Elspeth do this too?



And Elspeth is great against aggro.

[sdematt]

Meh, using the attack phase is for chumps :P

-Matt

[YoullBeDead]

Why not one TimeSeive... for infinite turns with 6 mana/foundry/sword?

[sdematt]

I like the way you think, good sir. But, that combo doesn't actually get you anywhere within a reasonable amount of time (your opponent will probably make you run the turns out), but it's obviously viable.

-Matt

[VsTheWorld]

Why not one TimeSeive... for infinite turns with 6 mana/foundry/sword?

If you have 6 mana/Foundry/Sword, you're already winning.

Anyway, I picked up this deck a month or so ago after seeing Nightmare's list from SCG Boston. In that time, almost all my losses came at the hands of Jace. Stoneforge, while good in theory, never really panned out in practice. When it's the only creature you play, it just eats all the removal and you can never really get any Sword action going (granted, I never tested Batterskull). So after realizing the deck generally destroys aggro and just loses to Jace, I cut the Stoneforge package (3 Stoneforge, 2 Swords, 2 Inkmoth Nexus) for a fetch, an Island, and 5 cards that are just way better against control (having previously cut 2 Counterspell and 1 Needle for 3 Misstep in the Stoneforge version). I would rather not post my exact list prior to the GP, but it will probably be available in the 1K TCQ thread since I top 8'd with it today. I think the SB needs some work but otherwise I was very happy with it. The only problem is sometimes being able to win matches in time. I picked up 2 unintentional draws in 6 rounds today (Zoo and Enchantress).

[YoullBeDead]

I think your right but the Time Sieve does hard lock the win, making a ton of thopters still requires getting to an attack, and it gives the opponent one last shot at pulling his fat from the fire. Just a thought, you may be right that its overkill. Ive been looking to add more basic land. It dawned on me that many of the most established decks are running low 10-12 on real land, plus sacks.... with extirpate and surgical extraction now, along with wasteland, you could easily exile ALL of your opponents land in a couple turns. I think its smart to be more robust in the land dept.

As for Jace, there are new tools for ending him, anyone tried hex parasite in anger yet? Since the TCQ allowed NPH were there any suprises/innovations you noticed... I assume this was a Diehard? Did he actually give out the announced prizes?

[YoullBeDead]

Has anyone considered replacing enlightened tutor with "Long-Term Plans", given we have top, it becomes an instant tutor for any card in the deck without giving the opponent any info.

[thefreakaccident]

Have any of you guys tested carnival of souls? Seems like it could be decent to make infinite tokens... And if you ran some more token generation it could possibly make you power better in the midgame. I haven't tested it at all.

[puppektion]

Given this list feels like a combination of Landstill and regular Countertop Thopters, what do you feel that this list does better/worse than the either of the regular lists? i.e. Why play this list?

I kinda like being the control player, you know, "that guy". I keep going back to CounterTop. I was fumbling through the OP and saw the list encompassing Standstill figured I'd been holding on to mine for years without actually having played them in ages, so I decided to try it out. Me making a claim that this is 'better' or 'worse' than either of the regular lists wouldn't be fair, as I actually haven't tested the other lists, or, for that matter, this one as extensively as I normally would like.

I will say, however, that I just rather enjoy having the ability to kinda go down either road; being able to drop Standstill while sitting on Mishra's Factory is wonderful, and once the Standstill breaks, being able to ride the CA into Combo Pieces, etc. is just wonderful. I haven't played a game where a Standstill wasn't broken in my favour, and every game in which a Standstill resolved, I've won.

I'm not sure if that adequately answers your question, or your future question about why I didn't adequately answer it. Also, I'm tired and not thinking straight. But at least this time, alcohol isn't involved.


Was Jace not in because of availability or do you have a more specific reason?

The biggest reason was availability; I don't own them, and as high as they are, I'm not too keen on jumping on picking them up. There's a good chance that I would have been able to borrow them for that event, although if I run Jace, then Humility becomes Moat, and then it returns to a matter of budget :P


Your opinion of Intuition vs. Gifts Ungiven?

Gifts allows you to assemble the full combo off of just one card. With Gifts, you're able to grab: Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek, Argivian Find, Academy Ruins. They can give you Sword and (Find or Ruins), but you still grab back Foundry. If you want to Intuition for the full combo... well, you can't without having at least one of the pieces already available. Additionally, if you already have one (or more) of the pieces, you can always grab other toys to be abused with Ruins.


Lastly, any neat tricks this deck can pull? (e.g. things that may not be apparent to us that haven't played the deck)

I don't think there's anything that's not incredibly evident. I think the biggest tricks are just Gifts stacks and tricks using Academy Ruins, neither of which are terribly difficult to figure out. If there's anything else hiding, I'm blanking on it at the time.

(Reading through this now, I feel like I'm giving a bunch of "I dunno" answers here. Maybe something came out right?)

[DragoFireheart]

I haven't played a game where a Standstill wasn't broken in my favour, ...


Then play against Merfolk.

[puppektion]

Then play against Merfolk.

Hahahahahaha. Why would I ever cast Standstill against a deck that runs it (or at the very least, *can* run it) itself?

[DragoFireheart]

Hahahahahaha. Why would I ever cast Standstill against a deck that runs it (or at the very least, *can* run it) itself?

That's exactly the counter point I was making against you. You simply said it for me.

[ivanpei]

I tried a list with missteps yesterday, man were there important. In the blue mirror, he who has the most missteps usually wins. I drew 3 against torpornought once, basically raped his cantrips and missteps for free. He couldn't recover and my countertop just rolled him. Against affinity it counters their signal pests, springleaf etc.

Being dead in hand wasn't much of a problem. I kept a bridge lock with 0 cards in hand against affinity for like 20 turns while I tried to find jace/jace him out. We really need misstep to compete IMO. I really really always want to see it in my opening hand. Later in the game it's a fine topdeck too. IMO any deck with 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm should really run it.

[puppektion]

That's exactly the counter point I was making against you. You simply said it for me.

See, in that matchup, more likely than not, it would be fodder to Force of Will or shuffled away after a Brainstorm. Although even in the worst matchups for running it, there are still situations where it makes sense to cast it. Post board, it would likely come out.

[Dalapin]

@Ivanpei I'm not sure where to start with a Mental Misstep version, so could you post a list? Thank you ^.^

[Arianrhod]

Here's what I'm working on tuning for Providence. It's a fairly no frills main deck list, all the technology is in the sideboard. I will say from the outset that this is a Tezz version, but I haven't seen a thread dedicated to that variant, so I'm just going to put it here.


//Artifacts
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Pithing Needle
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Opal

//Enchantments
1x Moat
1x Humility

//Walkers
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Instants
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Brainstorm

//Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Academy Ruins
4x Island
3x Plains
1x Swamp

//Sideboard
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Back to Basics
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Cursed Totem
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Energy Flux
1x Counterbalance


Chains is the card that makes me want to play this deck, even beyond my long favoritism towards this general archetype of tutor+bullets decks. There is a lot of card drawing in legacy right now, and Chains punishes those decks heavily. Cursed Totem seems weak at the moment, but I'm not sure what I like in that spot more.

Not going to say it's without its problems, but it's a blast to play, and shouldn't stress me out too much at the GP, which I suppose is also an important factor.

[Koby]

I must be missing something, but how can you reliably turn on Mox Opal when you only run 12 artifacts, with 25% of them being legendary?

You may want to consider Chrome Mox to actually act as acceleration. In your build Mox Opal is just win more.

[Arianrhod]

I'll grant it's been a bit light -- the duplicates haven't bothered me, since I can just feed them to Foundry. That said, might be better to take two out for perhaps an additional copy of Thopter and Sword. I like having one in, though, as it allows E.T. to act as a mana fixer without the vulnerability of the artifact lands.

[Barbwire]

I'm running a build similar to this, and I have often found myself not able to hit metalcraft reliably, I think I'm going to either cut them for Chrome's or at least lower the count to 2.

[puppektion]

I played this (virtually identical to last list, just minor sideboard changes) in an event last night. Ended up going 3-0-1(an ID) before cut to top-8, took the first round of top-8 and we split at top-4. Decklist:

Lands
2 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strands
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

All the other ☺☺☺☺
1 Argivian Find
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Humility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Hibernation
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Propaganda
1 Rule of Law
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Round 1, versus Lands

Game 1, a fairly explosive open on his end (Exploration, Manabond) was slowly stopped by Engineered Explosives. Eventually, Counterbalance locked him out of his Life from the Loam, and Thopter tokens eventually overwhelmed him.

Game 2 went to time, as game 1 actually took about 35 minutes.

Record: 1-0 (1-0 for games)



Round 2, versus Dredge

Game 1, a combination of an early Thopter/Sword, and Engineered Explosives ate his bridges and his zombie tokens. Ensnaring Bridge kept his Ichorids and eventual Grave-Troll from attacking, and he scooped once I had enough Thopters on the field (although I had considered just letting him draw to death; he was down to 1 card by the time he scooped)

Sideboard: For the life of me, I can't remember what came out. I do, however, remember bringing in 2x Propaganda, 2x Tormod's Crypt and 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

Game 2, a combination of Swordsing his Tireless Tribe and Putrid Imp, establishing a lock with Crypt and Academy Ruins, and eventually landing Wheel of Sun and Moon enchanting him ended the game fairly quickly.

Record: 2-0 (3-0 for games)



Round 3, versus Bant

Game 1, Sword of Body and Mind was giving me a run for my money. Academy Ruins was one of the only things saving my ass, but eventually got Wasted. Ensnaring Bridge was able to lock him out fairly well until Thopter tokens were able to take over.

Sideboard: -1 Humility, 2 Spell Snare, +3 Hibernation

Game 2 actually took us to time again. Counterbalance, IIRC was what got him to scoop, but EE for his Batterskull and Swords for his Stoneforge were also huge.

Record: 3-0 (4-0 for games)



Round 4, ID



Top-8, versus (Uwr Jace+Punishing Fire+Forbid)

The fact that he was running EE+Academy Ruins of his own was a bit difficult. More than anything else, that was the difficult part. Dropping a ruins of my own shut off his recursion after he had blown up my first Foundry, and eventually drawing into the second sealed game 1.

Sideboard: -2 Swords, -1 Humility, +2 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Game 2 was a bit trickier. He was able to keep me off my Thopter Foundry for the most part, then Pithing Needled my Factories. After that, I needed to hold out until I could EE the needle away, but unfortunately, he held his countermagic for that. Stuck with a Crypt in hand and drawing nothing for turn after turn (through Top and shuffling), I eventually died to Jace

Sideboard: -2 Swords, -1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 3 came nice and easy. I started early with Factory beats, he opened with a Needle naming Thopter Foundry. After he had dropped an EE at 2, I played Standstill (to force him to blow his EE). Eventually he blew the EE, I was able to drop the Thopter and Sword anyway (he still had Needle out), and he landed Jace. I KGriped the Needle, and eventually Thopter tokens took the game.
Record: 4-0 (6-1 for games)




A few thoughts:
I still love standstill
I'm still torn on Spell Snare. I'm still not sure if it's better suited as Mental Misstep or not.
I *love* it when people Mental Misstep my Tops. I don't quite know why; I just seem to get some sort of sick kick out of it.
Humility wasn't really relevant in any of my matches, although I don't think Moat would have been any better. The only time that it might have mattered was in the Bant matchup, but the only time I saw my Humility there was when it was getting milled by Sword of Body and Mind.

Again, I'll ask: Thoughts? Questions? Concerns?

[heronimus]

Hi,

I played this deck today in a small local tournament (12 players), here is the report:

R1 - Dream Halls
G1. I have to mull to 4 cards with a CB, land, Fow, Top. I counter his first turn Show and Tell. After setting up CB-Top he gets a Progenitus into play and I loose.
G2. After some countering he resolves a Dream Halls, gg.
0-1-0

R2 - Dragon Stompy
G1. Easy matchup for me. He plays a Phyrexian Revoker on my Sword of the Meek :p One turn later I play a Thopter Foundry.
G2. Turn 2 I have CB-Top lock. Turn 4 I resolve Jace.
1-1-0

R3 - Rock
G1. Takes very long. I counter stuff and he destroys stuff with Maelstrom Pulse and Pridemage. I finally land Back to Basics when he tapped out. We play till time.
1-1-1

R4 - Again Rock
G1. I counter some GSZ's. And win with Jace.
G2. Same as G1.
2-1-1

I am placed 4th and going into T4.

T4 - Merfolk
G1. I loose through Merfolks and counters
G2. I win by Pithing Needle on Mutavault, Ensnaring Bridge and Jace
G3. I win with Pithing Needles on Mutavault and Aether Vial, Ensnaring Bridge and thopters.

T2 - Sneak and Show
G1. I win with counters and Jace.
G2. A long match. We both counter lots of stuff. Finaly he resolves a Show and Tell for Emrakul, but I had a Humility in hand :D. I win with thopters.

Here is the list I played:

Maindeck:
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tropical Island

4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Back to Basics
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:
1 Humility
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Telemin Performance
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Krosan Grip


+ Like:
Back to Basics
Academy Ruins
Ensnaring Bridge

- Don't like:
All the hate everyone haves.... (Krosan Grip, Extirpate, Pridemage)

I don't have Peacekeepers. I think they are very good and they pass a lot of hate.

[obituary 95]

is this deck dead? where do we stand with the landstill match ups. in particullare the blue white list.

[(nameless one)]

Hey puppetkion,

How was your list without Jace. I noticed that you're running Gifts Ungiven in that slot. How was it?

Also, this might sound noobish but how would you do your Gifts package?

[merfolkotpt]

I know this thread is mostly dead or dying, and that CounterTop Thopter is not in the best place but I think enlightened tutor control (sans CB potentially) is still a strong strategy with a lot of flexibility.

That being said we need to start thinking about how to beat the other blue decks. I have noticed that many of them run very few win conditions, at maximum i have seen 10-12. What do people think about running the abyss somewhere in the list against the RUG , and BUG lists?

Additionally, how about running more ways to deal with our good friend Jace? Thoughts?

I think fundamentally the most important thing we can do to make the deck better against the other blue decks is max out on MM and have some number of additional one mana counters between between board and main.

[Morgothian]

This deck is not dead: it only needs some adjustement after Mental Misstep, and also needs to tune a good CB curve which in this meta is very strong.

Originally, the deck suffered a lot decks such as Merfolk and Jace Landeed, but with the opportune adjustement I and my team mate Lorenzo Fedeli were able to tune a very performing version of the deck.

Basically, the real problem after Mental Misstep was announced is that Mental Misstep is too good, both for us and for the opponents.

For us , it transaltes in the fact that we need to play it, because is a very strong free counter that stops fast starts (Wild Nacatl), accelerations (Noble Hierarch), discards (Duress, Thoughtseize) and also counters Aether Vial, CB's worst enemy.

Unfortunately MM stops also Enlightened Tutor. I do not agree to the claim that an Enlightened-Tutoring strategy is viable in the current meta: the card both goes under MM and makes card disadvantage. Moreover, playing a full set of ET and also MM woul rape the Counterbalance curve, leaving us with a suboptimal deck.

Careful considerations and calculations were performed in the building of the deck I will show you in a moment, and also the sideboard plan was built with the aim to destroy the most negative MU.

Here is the list:

Morgothian Supreme Thopters

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins

A solid manabase, with 22 lands that gives us access to 4 colors, of which only U and W are relevant pre side. With 6 basic lands and 9 fetches we rarely have te risk to suffer Wasteland plans/recursions, and we are also able to support a Bloo Moon side plan. The singleton Tropical Island allows us to maximize Firespout and make a significant card advantage with the inclusion of the very performing Ancient Grudge; if your meta is not infested by Stoneforge-Batterskull decks however, the card can be changed with Disenchant or, if many Standstill.decks are present, Seal of Cleansing.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

Although Mental Misstep is very strong, in a CB shell can become redundant and unuseful once we have assembled the combo. Two Counterspells allow us to hard counter any menace not covered by CB, which comes into a 3+3 split despise of the many ones claiming that a Thopter deck must absolutely run 4 Sensei's D. Top.

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Batterskull
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

The combo is now tutored, as for Barnello's list, by the marvellous Stoneforge Mystic, which can also provide a very resilient sideplan (Batterskull). The single Enlightened Tutor helps to fluidify the deck, and must be seen as a virtual +1 copy of every key slot of the deck: the 4th Top, the 4th Balance, the 3rd Thopter Foundry and very rarely the 2nd Sword of the Meek. Moreover, playing just 3 creatures which are predominantly used to tutor Sword of the Meek rends many anti-aggro cards unuseful for the opponent, while we retain a deck that is full of bombs.

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Firespout (cc3 meta slot: can be adapted in correspondence of the meta, mine was supposed to be very aggro Maverick/Zoo/Merfolk)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Full of bombs, yes, because on T2 we can go with a Counterbalance, a Stoneforge or a piece of the combo, on T3 we can vial a Batterskull or use a cc3 solution and on T4 cast a JAce and gain significant advantage.

The sideboard has been built to empower the Mus vs. Merfolk, Patriot and Landeed.

Sideboard

Fixed Slots
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
1 Mental Misstep

Flex slots
1 Wrath of God
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensanring Bridge

I hope I convinced you all that there's still a hope for the deck, it's just a matter of adaptability and changing of the old schemes.

Did I mention that yesterday I placed 1st on a 95 people tournament, playing also the finals?:smile: A list of the MU I found may help to understand powers and weaknesses:

1. Dredge, 2-0 [1-0]
2. Punishing Zoo, 2-0 [2-0]
3. Hive Mind, 2-0 [3-0]
4. 1-land Belcher, 0-2 [3-1]
5. Patriot, 2-0 [4-1]
6. Teammate with UW Turtenwald, I.D. [4-1-1]
7. UW Turtenwald, 2-0 [5-1-1]

I entered the top8 as 5th with a 63% rating.

Quarterfinals: Fauna Shaman Zenith Tricks, 2-0
Semifinals: RUG Order, 2-1
Finals: 1-land Belcher, same of Swiss, 2-0

Within a week the video coverage of the top8 will be online, I will link it to anyone interested (courtesy of the Milan Legacy League, 100 player-mean for the season).

Thank you for reading.

[say no to scurvy]

very interesting list, it's pretty much everything i want to play in a cb list - stoneforge, thopters, and cbtop

congrats, what would you change in the list, if anything? and how'd the totem serve you?

[Morgothian]

I wouldn't change anything from the maindeck, it's really permorming; however, the couple of Firespout can be everything, depending on the meta.

In a control/combo meta they can become Vendilion Cliques and you can add a Karakas instead of a Fetch. If you prefer, you can try Vedalken Shackles or a Blood Moon maindeck, they can be virtually anything...they are the weakest slots of the side but they fill optimally the CB curve.

Cursed Totem was there against Maverick and decks with Qasali pridemage, because it shuits all the activated abilities of their creatures, rending their deck a crap. In the quarterfinals, I played it aganist a Maverick UWG deck and he was forced:tongue: to Force.

[Minkkiq]

Oh man, I really would like to try out Stoneforgers in an upcoming small local tournament (20-30-man anticipated). Too bad I've included all my copies in my GWu (Maverick/Bant Aggro... whatever...) deck, that I'm lending to a friend, so I've got to try out something else :/

I have very little experience with this deck as I mostly have gathered it from what I have just recently and lend the rest. Unfortunately I cannot do any playtesting at all (except fishing), so it also makes it rather exciting to be trying it out next Saturday. I've done some research (limited, as I've got close to no time nor chance at all to be surfing Internet nor chatting with friends familiar with format), more or less from this site. I did gaze upon MTGsalvation... I felt violated...

I'm strongly anticipating a meta with Affinity (as I'm once again lending a deck to another friend), Maverick/NO-variants (it has been rather popular in recent tournaments in here as well) and Team America (couple of my buddies were talking about it quite fervently not too long ago), Painterstone perhaps and random (Dredge to Combo to casual). I haven't played legacy for over 4 months and I have mostly only glimpsed shortly what is IN and what is OUT so I might be a bit out of touch today's fashion.

In any case, here is a list I've put together. Feel free to bash it how you please. First I was thinking including Standstills and E.Tutors/Trinket Mages for taking an oldish Landstillish approach, but wasn't sure of 'em in the end so I displaced them. Also it was so hard to find space for everything, therefore it still is 61 card...

22 land

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 UG Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Rest 39

3 Sensei D. Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 StoP
2 Counterspell

1 Pithing Needle
1 EE
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Humility

2 Jace TMS
3 Tezzeret AOB

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Perish
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 EE
3 Spell Pierce
1 Rule of Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle

In fishing, I've noticed how it rarely does anything until very late. It feels weak, combo is hard to find and above all else I don't have almost any clue how to play it as I've never played any Countertop decks before, only against. So uh... Here is this mess and... well... be gentle :D
I'd be very happy for any input you'd might have.

My first sketch was this:

+ 3 Standstill
+ 1 EE
+ 3 Trinket

- 1 CB
- 1 Humility
- 1 Misstep
- 3 Tezz
- 2 something, can't remember

[Morgothian]

Cut immediately Tezzeret, AoB: it sucks, really...it requires at least 12 artifacts to be not a piece of crap, while 20 to be at least decent. You have 9, and you wanna play a deck with 7 cc4 drops in it? you will mulligan or die very soon man...

Cut tezzeret and Black, put in red for Reb, BLood Moon and grim Lavamancer, a if u expect affinity bring in 1x Energy FLux and also a Cursed Totem against Maverick.

you cannot pretend to fin the combo playing only 3 pieces of it: switch the 3 Tezzeret with 3 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Humility with a Thopter Foundry. Also, your CB curve sucks, you've not enough cc3 drops.

I reccomend you to cut the 4th Misstep and the 4th Balance for another couple of cc3 drops. If you expect a lot of aggro decks, try with Firespout.

[Arsenal]

Morgothian, your list looks almost exactly like a Supreme Blue list, except you're running the SFM/ThopterFoundry package instead of the Clique/Goyf/Lavamancer creature suite that many Supreme Blue lists run; you even run the Lavamancer in your board.

Having played Supreme Blue and UWx Thopters (both pre and post-Mental Misstep), I'm wondering why you feel that the SFM/ThopterFoundry package is superior to just dumb ol "turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf, win the game from there" plan that Supreme Blue can execute.

[Morgothian]

You're right, we started the list from a 4C supreme blue (name is, indeed, "Supreme Thopters"). We removed almost all the green and the Goyfs because in this way we obtained:

-Better resistance to creature hate, rending opponent's removal practically unuseful...often he will side them out finding the lavamancer trio raping his creatures;
-Better manabase, full of basic lands;
-Access to Batterskull, which gives u a better MU against Merfolk;
-Access to a killing combo you can tutor making card advantage: when you topdeck two Tarmogoyf u are in a good board position. When you topdeck the Thopter Sword combo, you win. That's why basically: I prefer winning IF x in comparison to have a good board position that maybe, IF x IF y IF z, will led me to victory.

I don't believe very much that a T2 T3 Tarmogoyf wins the game; I also don't believe very much that in the current meta Tarmogoyf is strong as it was one year ago. On sunday I won every game 2-0 except one in the semifinals, and just because I decide that vialing a Batterskull and equipping it to a Thopter was not a sage move to contrast a Progenitus O_O...Tarmogoyf would have never done as well as Stoneforge+Thopter Sword.

[Morgothian]

Some video coverage, just to see how the deck works:

Round 7 against Emanuel Monteleone: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21069461xBy8hFXd

Quarterfinals against Daniele Pati: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v210716714rB8eC3F

Finals against Enrico Riccardi: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21069466jRgf7C6Q

[The Treefolk Master]

The videos won't play, anyone having the same issues?

[dsck]

The videos won't play, anyone having the same issues?

Works fine for me.

[TheElvishPiper]

I have been testing Morgothian's list, and its pretty awesome! I have been running a slightly different sideboard though. For reference, here it is:

1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God

[crovakiet]

I want to try the Morgothian list out for some reason even though I have been mainly playing U/W & UBG Landstill, and more recently U/W Stoneblade. It's been awhile since I have played with top(s). How is the matchup against a lot of the top current decks of the metagame such as the ones in the 'decks to beat' forum? How is the NO RUG matchup in particular since as a U/W Stoneblade player, NO RUG is a terrible matchup, and very much in favor of NO RUG pre and post board.

[obituary 95]

Hey Morgothian how did you get your numbers for your cb curve. Is there some mathlimatical formula that you use. You also seem to have a really tight mana base. Nine feth lands seems a little much don't you think.Also I have not played the no rug match up but in theory it seems good. All you really have to do is to make sure they dont get progenitous out and you will be fine.

[GGoober]

I usually dislike the playstyle of counterthopters, but I find Morgothian's initial list above to be incredibly strong. This is what I've been thinking of playing,

21 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins


REMOVAL: 7
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

Card-advantage/tutor: 10
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 ETutor

Permission: 12
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Daze/Spell Snare (depending on meta)
1 Counterbalance

WIN: 11
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Jace TMS
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

SB: 15
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Counterbalance
1 EE
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce

As much as ETutor is card disadvantage, the ability to fetch single bombs that eventually net back all the advantage is a little too precious to give up. Grabbing an Ensnaring Bridge against Merfolks/Show/NO can steal some game 1's.

I opted for only 1 Counterbalance in the MD as a tutorable lockpiece towards the mid-late game. Going turn 1 Top, turn 2 Counterbalance IMHO is really not viable these days with Misstep running around (i.e. misstep'd top makes a turn2 Counterbalance not as effective, stranding that against a field of resolvable GSZ/SFM/Bob). I feel that this deck should and can aggressively play turn 2 plays (SFM/Thopters) and then finish the attrition war with a well-timed ETutor for relevant bombs.

I really like the threat density for the 'controllish' style of this archetype with SFM. SFM grabs Batterskull, Sword of the Meek, this allows you to drop down to 1 Sword of the Meek while playing higher counts of Thopter Foundry. SFM fetching equipment also has some nice synergy with Thopter flying tokens although I'm not perfectly sure if SB Swords e.g. SoFI, SoFF, SoBM are worth the slots.

[crovakiet]

I usually dislike the playstyle of counterthopters, but I find Morgothian's initial list above to be incredibly strong. This is what I've been thinking of playing,

21 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins


REMOVAL: 7
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

Card-advantage/tutor: 10
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 ETutor

Permission: 12
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Daze/Spell Snare (depending on meta)
1 Counterbalance

WIN: 11
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Jace TMS
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

SB: 15
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Peacekeeper
2 Counterbalance
1 EE
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce

As much as ETutor is card disadvantage, the ability to fetch single bombs that eventually net back all the advantage is a little too precious to give up. Grabbing an Ensnaring Bridge against Merfolks/Show/NO can steal some game 1's.

I opted for only 1 Counterbalance in the MD as a tutorable lockpiece towards the mid-late game. Going turn 1 Top, turn 2 Counterbalance IMHO is really not viable these days with Misstep running around (i.e. misstep'd top makes a turn2 Counterbalance not as effective, stranding that against a field of resolvable GSZ/SFM/Bob). I feel that this deck should and can aggressively play turn 2 plays (SFM/Thopters) and then finish the attrition war with a well-timed ETutor for relevant bombs.

I really like the threat density for the 'controllish' style of this archetype with SFM. SFM grabs Batterskull, Sword of the Meek, this allows you to drop down to 1 Sword of the Meek while playing higher counts of Thopter Foundry. SFM fetching equipment also has some nice synergy with Thopter flying tokens although I'm not perfectly sure if SB Swords e.g. SoFI, SoFF, SoBM are worth the slots.

If you are really thinking about the late game, in my opinion a counter spell or 2 really needs to be part of the 60 ala Morgothian's list. Also reducing the number of counterbalance(s) to 1 is also probably a mistake. From the decklist and seeing as how you are opting for daze/snare instead of counterspell(s) it almost seems like you want to be playing U/W Stoneblade instead with a very aggressive style using daze/snare to protect your mystic and then trying to jam the top/counterbalance/thopter/meek in as an afterthought for the late game whereas Morgothian's list which I've been playtesting a little bit seems a lot less aggressive and more about assembling the soft lock and winning in the late game, which probably has more to do with the inclusion of counterspell if anything.

[Morgothian]

Crovikiet's interpretation of my deck is correct: the deck is not aggressive, and I don't believe that the old, enlightened-for-bomb approach is currently viable, just because there are too many MM around. Moat is no longer the bomb it used to be...Goblin is less played, and with this deck you never lose post-board against Merfolk, and also the g1 is enhanced thanks to Stoneforge for Batterskull.

As I sayed, there were two flex-slot in the deck (2 Firespout) which were included because the meta was full of Maverick and Merfolks. In the evolving situation, I've done some changes to the maindeck, also because I want to assemble the combo faster: -1 Tropical, -2 Firespout, -1 Enlightened, -1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Topther, +1 Stoneforge, +2 Vendilion, +1 Sword of BM.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

@Crovakiet: the NO Order MU is not that bad, you just need to resolve Ensnaring Bridge and seize the game. Post board you insert Grim Lavamancer to kill every creature he plays and keep the Stp for goyfs. You board a second Bridge and go for CB protection to avoid their Ancient Grudge recursion. There are easier MUs, of course, but I played two times against this deck and won 2-1 and 2-0.

@Obituary: I agree with my team interpretation of the CB curve, which follows this scheme:

cc1: 12-14 (playing 14)
cc2: 11-12 (playing 13)
cc3: 4-5 (playing 4)
cc4: 3-4 (playing 3)
cc5: 4-5 (playing 5)

Which is the reason why including Enlightened Tutor will ruin the CB curve. I'm looking forward to see if cutting the mono-fluidificating Enlightened Tutor creates problems (it's a 1x that acts as the 4th top, 4th cb, 2nd maindeck bridge and additional peice of combo) to the deck: if so, I shall return to the 2 Thopter-1 Sword of the Meek configuration.

[obituary 95]

no I think you are wrong morgothian, I think you can play e tutor in a counterbalence deck without destroying your curve. even though I do agree with your idea that tutoring for bombs is a bad idea. I think it is better implemented by just tutoring for combo pieces. Also I do not think that MM belongs in this deck. The card is really bad right now. If you want proof just look at some of the decks to beat and tell me how many cards you actually want to counter with a cmc of one. and then you will see that the cards you want to counter are best answered by force of will. and also morgothian what is the point of running alot of creatures in this deck. one of the core ideas of this deck is that you are able to blank most of your opponents removal. I do not see why you would want to play more creatures to turn on your opponents removal spells .

here is my current list for reference
1 batterskull
4 sensei's diving top
4 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek

3 stoneforge mystic

4 counterbalence
4 brainstorm
4 dismember
4 enlightened tutor
1 fact or fiction ----- can be cut for another four drop
4 force of will

2 elesbeth night errant
1 preordain

1 academy ruins
1 buried ruins
4 flooded strand
9 island
1 marsh flats
4 plains
3 tundra

[TheElvishPiper]

Crovikiet's interpretation of my deck is correct: the deck is not aggressive, and I don't believe that the old, enlightened-for-bomb approach is currently viable, just because there are too many MM around. Moat is no longer the bomb it used to be...Goblin is less played, and with this deck you never lose post-board against Merfolk, and also the g1 is enhanced thanks to Stoneforge for Batterskull.

As I sayed, there were two flex-slot in the deck (2 Firespout) which were included because the meta was full of Maverick and Merfolks. In the evolving situation, I've done some changes to the maindeck, also because I want to assemble the combo faster: -1 Tropical, -2 Firespout, -1 Enlightened, -1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Topther, +1 Stoneforge, +2 Vendilion, +1 Sword of BM.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

@Crovakiet: the NO Order MU is not that bad, you just need to resolve Ensnaring Bridge and seize the game. Post board you insert Grim Lavamancer to kill every creature he plays and keep the Stp for goyfs. You board a second Bridge and go for CB protection to avoid their Ancient Grudge recursion. There are easier MUs, of course, but I played two times against this deck and won 2-1 and 2-0.

@Obituary: I agree with my team interpretation of the CB curve, which follows this scheme:

cc1: 12-14 (playing 14)
cc2: 11-12 (playing 13)
cc3: 4-5 (playing 4)
cc4: 3-4 (playing 3)
cc5: 4-5 (playing 5)

Which is the reason why including Enlightened Tutor will ruin the CB curve. I'm looking forward to see if cutting the mono-fluidificating Enlightened Tutor creates problems (it's a 1x that acts as the 4th top, 4th cb, 2nd maindeck bridge and additional peice of combo) to the deck: if so, I shall return to the 2 Thopter-1 Sword of the Meek configuration.

I actually went the opposite route. I have been playing your list for the past few weeks since you posted it, and I thank you for it. After playing a few small tournaments and several hours of testing, i have made only a few small changes to the deck. Here is the list I am currently running:

3 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Academy Ruins
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Blood Moon
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt

My first update to your list was cutting a Tundra for a second Plains, and cutting one Counterbalance for second Enlightened Tutor. I had originally put a second copy of Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard and found myself boarding it in for every match up. The second series of changes that I made to the deck was cutting the 2 Firespout (found them to only be really good against Merfolk) for one Vedalken Shackles and a 3rd copy of Enlightened Tutor. I absolutely love Enlightened Tutor in the deck, and I dont think that it ruins the CB curve at all. Im still not 100% on the Vedalken Shackles, but im still testing it.

I have an insane match up versus merfolk, and i feel that the NO Rug match up is also really good. Zoo is the reason why i wanted a few more one drops in the deck. The only decks I feel that I have a bad match up against after testing for a while are Show and Tell style decks.

[Morgothian]

It's a good change to the deck, TheElvishPiper: you added Enlightened Tutors to have virtual copies of more cards, so you were able to dimish the number of CB, Thopter Foundry and so on, while I prefered to have more concrete pieces without having card disadvantage (+1 Stoneforge Mystic and +1 Thopter Foundry).

I tested Vedalken Shackles some times ago and I was positively impressed; also, it's a cc3 drop sideout when you board for moons.

I don't really like a cc curve with onl 3 cc3 drops, but since your CB plan is lowered in power, it may be viable. Let me know!

[sdematt]

My question is regarding playing the deck without E. Tutors:

How can you do it? The deck searches for 1-2 copies of bombs, so why would you play without it? I know it might ruin your curve a bit, but I'd rather have the E. Tutor go through and get my game-ending Ensnaring Bridge.

-Matt

[crovakiet]

I like the Vedalken Shackles as well as a 1 of. Ensnaring bridge handles all the 'too big' power creatures cheated in by reanimator/show&tell/NO. Shackles steal the rest.

[sdematt]

Any thoughts on this deck at the moment? I know this deck basically "evolved" into Stoneblade, but I think there's still some potential. I think we really have to be able to deal with SFM and Jace in the early game, and then grind out the long game with lock pieces. Once Thopter Foundry + Sword is up, Stoneblade can't win. Batterskull can't get through, neither can Clique, etc. Plus, we can attack their Jace.

But, I don't agree with the half-assed SFM plan of our own. We play less counterspells, less removal, and we've not all-in on that plan anyway. We're almost attempting to play that game better, but we're not as good, so I'm thinking cut that plan from the deck, as it just isn't worth it.

I think Torpor Orb deserves a slot somewhere to basically stop Stoneblade from performing Clique and SFM shenanigans in the long game, and Counterbalance should help us grind out and win the counter war.

Thoughts for anyone still playing the deck?

-Matt

[Justin]

I think the problem with this deck is that it is extremely tight. It doesn't have a lot of flex spots left over after putting in all the core cards. It runs a toolbox of Enlightened Tutor targets, typical countermagic, removal, and two different combos.

I think this deck has been hurt by the printing of Mental Misstep. Yes, I realize that it can run Mental Misstep itself, but MM doesn't fit into this deck as seemlessly as it does Stoneblade and others. When opponents are playing Mental Misstep, it makes it that much harder to resolve Top. Before MM, you could pretty reliably resolve it on turn one, especially when on the play. MM also hits Enlightened Tutor, a key card of the deck. If CounterTop is unable to cast those spells reliably, it is going to suffer. I think control players have opted for UW Stoneblade, Landstill or decks that they find it easier to fit in their MMs and Jaces.

[sdematt]

You can easily fit it all in, but you do have to make some sacrifices. Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes, but that's why you run MM of your own, and rawdog E Tutor when possible. It's like any backbreaking 1-drop play: sometimes they'll have it, other times they just won't.

My list thus far is as follows:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Shackles/Control piece
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

You're running a ton of basics, and many answers to SFM. Swords, Spell Snare, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Thopter Foundry Combo and Force all deal with big threats. I'm thinking about running another 4 drop so I can reliably counter Jace into the late game.

Again, you basically try to either drop a quick lockpiece and hold the game until you can either set-up Counterbalance/Top or Jace, or you go for quick combo. Counterbalance lock allows you to counter mid game Ancestral Visions, further SFM, etc. Tons of value since they can't counter the triggers.

The only problem is actually doing all of this. Reliably locking up the early game so we can actually get TO the late game is the main problem. Like you said, having two engines and being a slow deck really sucks.

Out of the board though, you hopefully try to wreck up the board with Humility, or go for the long haul with Blood moons, Blasts, and Humility.

-Matt

[Justin]

Well the four Spell Snare certainly helps against SFM. I would argue that you want to run a full set of Top. I've found that Top is the MVP of this deck. The deck will win a majority of the time against opposing decks if you can resolve a quick top. I also have to question 3 foundrys and 2 swords. I think you could probably cut one of each and devote those slots to either enlarging your toolbox or adding more Top and Counterbalance. I'm also not sure if you need two Ensnaring Bridge, although it is awesome against SFM decks and aggro in general.

[sdematt]

You also want to reliably hit combo without having to dig too much for it, is my thing. Also, they add to your 2-drops for your CB curve.

Bridge wins SO many games, and with Moat, it means nothing in Stoneblade can get through (if Batterskull is equipped to anything, you'll have less cards than that creature's power). Only Manlands sometimes slip through. It hoses Merfolk, since their own Lords hose them. Stops Progenitus, Emrakul, most Goyfs, Knights, Thrun, etc.

Once you can get Thopter Combo online, Stoneblade can't beat it, NO RUG can't beat it, Zoo, etc. Unless they actually combo off, nothing can sit there and beat Thopter combo. An active Emrakul is beaten by 7 Thopter tokens.

-Matt

[GGoober]

You can easily fit it all in, but you do have to make some sacrifices. Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes, but that's why you run MM of your own, and rawdog E Tutor when possible. It's like any backbreaking 1-drop play: sometimes they'll have it, other times they just won't.

My list thus far is as follows:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Shackles/Control piece
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

You're running a ton of basics, and many answers to SFM. Swords, Spell Snare, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Thopter Foundry Combo and Force all deal with big threats. I'm thinking about running another 4 drop so I can reliably counter Jace into the late game.

Again, you basically try to either drop a quick lockpiece and hold the game until you can either set-up Counterbalance/Top or Jace, or you go for quick combo. Counterbalance lock allows you to counter mid game Ancestral Visions, further SFM, etc. Tons of value since they can't counter the triggers.

The only problem is actually doing all of this. Reliably locking up the early game so we can actually get TO the late game is the main problem. Like you said, having two engines and being a slow deck really sucks.

Out of the board though, you hopefully try to wreck up the board with Humility, or go for the long haul with Blood moons, Blasts, and Humility.

-Matt


I disagree MM ruins counterthopter lists. It obviously will ruin lists that are bent on winning on the back of Countertop, but in your list, and many other recently developed list, you are actually fine with MM hitting your SDT since you are playing basically the same control deck as any other deck would, except having 4-6 slots dedicated to the thopter combo (which is great in plentiful of matchups).

And yes, Ensnaring Bridge is brutal :) They need Grips to truly deal with it, otherwise you are accumulating cards to protect Bridge and your combo so outside of Grips, they can't do anything abuot it. I like Bridge better than Moat (Tombstalkers/Emrakul/Spellstutter Sprite/Clique are all the more popular these days(.

[sdematt]

Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes

I never said it ruined the deck, just sometimes it's brutal to have a crucial E. Tutor easily countered with a Mental Misstep.

Metal, since you probably have more time than me (maybe), would you mind maybe running my list and tell me what you think?



-Matt

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, exactly how good is Blood Moon? Is it really that good against the meta? I mean, I don't have a huge fear of Wasteland, and I run fetches...I'm just a little cautious to just auto-include something that isn't a huge house against my bad matchups. It looks good paired with Torpor Orb and maybe Revokers all in the board. That's a real hose paired with CB. Also, I'm trying something a little unorthodox right now, but I don't want to unveil it quite yet (the cards for the effort are eluding me, and I want to test before I post it, so I don't look like a n00b). Is there a Planeswalker other than Jace to use? I just hate all the Jace Wars and was wondering if there is another planeswalker that might be an acceptable choice. I think Koth + Blood Moon and a few more non-basics might be pretty decent...I dunno. Probably just stick with the Jaces, but I keep mine in the board. Sounds stupid, but I don't really even need them most of the time. I prefer the combo kill and the business instead of wasting a turn to drop a 4cc brainstorm...

Thanks for your answers, this looks like it might become my next signature deck (just left ANT and varients for good, even sold the LED's...:(

-ABC

[sdematt]

There's definitely a super card that me and my team are testing. In theory, it's super good against cards with card advantage. Is that the one you're talking about, Bee?

If it is, I don't think we can reliably run it, because we want card advantage, too.

Blood Moon is super good as Stoneblade can't reliably hit their White sources (they rely on fetches to get them), Team America dies in a fire with White America, slows down combo/Hive Mind if fast enough, and is just a general fuck-over card to so many decks if they get greedy and don't fetch basics. One of the reasons to run Red is Blood Moon and REB, so since you're in it for REB, might as well run Moon as well.

I'm thinking the Abyss is really good in theory, but is a damn pain in the ass to: A) cast, b) Be relevant. I mean, Stoneblade can't reliably win through it in the early game unless they pop a ton of creatures at once. It's a tough decision.

Another Planeswalker I tried for a while was Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. If you're running enough artifacts, you can run Mox Opals and artifact lands. Once you get 15-20 artifacts, he's VERY good. He can win out of nowhere. He gives you an insta-win condition under Moat/Humility lock that's faster than Jace.

-Matt