[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[sdematt]

There's definitely a super card that me and my team are testing. In theory, it's super good against cards with card advantage. Is that the one you're talking about, Bee?

If it is, I don't think we can reliably run it, because we want card advantage, too.

Blood Moon is super good as Stoneblade can't reliably hit their White sources (they rely on fetches to get them), Team America dies in a fire with White America, slows down combo/Hive Mind if fast enough, and is just a general fuck-over card to so many decks if they get greedy and don't fetch basics. One of the reasons to run Red is Blood Moon and REB, so since you're in it for REB, might as well run Moon as well.

I'm thinking the Abyss is really good in theory, but is a damn pain in the ass to: A) cast, b) Be relevant. I mean, Stoneblade can't reliably win through it in the early game unless they pop a ton of creatures at once. It's a tough decision.

Another Planeswalker I tried for a while was Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. If you're running enough artifacts, you can run Mox Opals and artifact lands. Once you get 15-20 artifacts, he's VERY good. He can win out of nowhere. He gives you an insta-win condition under Moat/Humility lock that's faster than Jace.

-Matt

[Morgothian]

In my opinion, the Stoneforge plan to tutor is perfect, even though is still possible to try playing a non-stoneforge build. I won another tournament in Verona (64 players) last sunday with this list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Seat of Synod
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Batterskull
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Firespout
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Humility

Sideboard

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
1 Wrath of God
1 Cursed Totem
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux

Firespout is too storng in this meta, it gets rid of Merfolk, MAverick and kills virtually all the critters of RUG ORder. Moreover, I tested against the Order-Rebirth combo and went 7-3. Humility is superior to Moat and synergic with Firespout.

A non-Stoneforge build will have -3 Stoneforge -1 Batterskull +1 Thopter Foundry +1 Sword of the Meek +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Is also possible to cut the 2nd Sword of the Meek for a 3rd copy of Enlightened Tutor.

[sdematt]

Thoughts on this, Morgothian?

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I think I'll definitely try the Firespouts, especially with Humility. I've been finding Spell Snare pretty hot, though, especially since my CB curve is a bit low on 2's.

Also, what matchups did you face? Want to do a tournament report? :)

-Matt

[eluvial]

I like your new list Morgothian but 21 lands seems very light. Maybe I am drawing bad but I am finding even 22 to not be enough and thinking 23 is the way to go.

[sdematt]

In control decks, I usually play 23-24 lands. It's served me well.

-Matt

[eluvial]

Here is a list that has been having some success on Magic Online. I love the Dark Confidants in the board but the counterbalance curve looks terrible.

1: 20
2: 7
3: 2
4: 3
5: 4


1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
23 lands

0 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mental Misstep
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
37 other spells


Sideboard
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendilion Clique

[DragoFireheart]

This deck needs to drop the CounterTop combo. Granted, it'll be a new deck, but the combination isn't that great anymore. Between MM and Vials, it just doesn't work as well as in the past.

[sdematt]

It's actually super greasy in the late game. It's never great in the early game, but grinding out the long game, it's so good. Stoneblade can't counter it, and bitches cry when it's online. :)

-Matt

[sdematt]

I've reworked my list to have a bit more early game...game. I've adjusted Morgothian's manabase to a not-so-greedy 23 lands, and I'm playing both SFM and the Thopter combo, with multiple lockpieces. Ideally, you want to combo, but you can always just grind Batterskull. I've lowered the "reliance" on CounterTop, with online one in the main, and one in the board. It's not good in the early game, and only comes alive later on.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

BOARD

1 Counterbalance
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat/lockpiece

-Matt

[eluvial]

Why 1x Underground Sea? Seems kinda loose just for Explosives. I run a tropical in that spot for ancient grudge and the occasional firespout.

[sdematt]

Our viability has increased. Huzzah!

This is a real deck again. Prepare to grind out decklists, gentlemen.

-Matt

[(nameless one)]

Our viability has increased. Huzzah!

This is a real deck again. Prepare to grind out decklists, gentlemen.

-Matt

Actually it hasn't. If you don't believe me, check all the Top8s at SCG Opens from when Survival of the Fittest got banned to when Mental Misstep became Legacy legal.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'll guess I'll turn to this deck now, since it looks like the only good control deck (RIP Standstill, you'll be avenged! Well, maybe not...).

If RUG doesn't die, could Hanna's Custody be a SB option to, you know, not die to Ancient Grudge.

Now that aggro is poised to make a return, I'm thinking the MD aggro hate should look something like this:

4 Swords to Plowshares (mandatory)
2 Ensnaring Bridge (Still awesome)
1 Humility // Moat (Humility shuts down everything, but does not play well with Bridge)
1 Vedalken Shackles (Cards posted above handle big guys, this handles the rest)

With misstep gone, Enlightened Tutor is much better now, and the search for a bomb => win plan is much more reliable.

Post-Innistrad, what do you think of 1 Nevermore SB-MD????

Thoughts on Countertop? Maybe 2 Counterbalance main deck to handle combo, burn and zoo, and an extra one (or 2) in the SB for said match ups.

I'm thinking Counterspell should be in the list, maybe 2-3. Thoughts on Spell Snare?

Would Stoneforge Mystic remain in the deck??? Mystic => Batterskull is still powerful, although I'm not sure HOW powerful. Spell Snare is likely to see more play, and Mystic will be plowed every day of the week.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'll guess I'll turn to this deck now, since it looks like the only good control deck (RIP Standstill, you'll be avenged! Well, maybe not...).

If RUG doesn't die, could Hanna's Custody be a SB option to, you know, not die to Ancient Grudge.

Now that aggro is poised to make a return, I'm thinking the MD aggro hate should look something like this:

4 Swords to Plowshares (mandatory)
2 Ensnaring Bridge (Still awesome)
1 Humility // Moat (Humility shuts down everything, but does not play well with Bridge)
1 Vedalken Shackles (Cards posted above handle big guys, this handles the rest)

With misstep gone, Enlightened Tutor is much better now, and the search for a bomb => win plan is much more reliable.

Post-Innistrad, what do you think of 1 Nevermore SB-MD????

Thoughts on Countertop? Maybe 2 Counterbalance main deck to handle combo, burn and zoo, and an extra one (or 2) in the SB for said match ups.

I'm thinking Counterspell should be in the list, maybe 2-3. Thoughts on Spell Snare?

Would Stoneforge Mystic remain in the deck??? Mystic => Batterskull is still powerful, although I'm not sure HOW powerful. Spell Snare is likely to see more play, and Mystic will be plowed every day of the week.

[DragoFireheart]

Actually it hasn't. If you don't believe me, check all the Top8s at SCG Opens from when Survival of the Fittest got banned to when Mental Misstep became Legacy legal.

All I see are a whole bunch of CounterTop-Thopter lists.

[The Treefolk Master]

These are all the Countertop Thopter (and some purely "Thopter") lists I could find:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37287

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37576

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38052

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38177

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37040

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36629

[Justin]

I agree that this is one of the few blue decks that actually comes out stronger with the banning of Mental Misstep. Tops and Enlightened Tutors are now much easier to resolve. It also should not be too hard to fill those MM slots, as this deck has a pretty tight decklist. Combo should be able to make a comeback and countertop varients will have an easier time dealing with them than UW Stoneblade and other non-top control decks.

[DragoFireheart]

This wouldn't be an awful deck to try the SFM - Batterskull combination in. SFM can also grab Sword of the Meek.

[GGoober]

Lists have been posted on the past few pages on SFM builds Drago. And yes, this deck is a good contender post-MM ban. It has a great aggro matchup, SFM gives a chance against Merfolk along with Ensnaring Bridge. Combo is neutered with Countertop. I'm excited to pilot this deck confidently again.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm going to start testing this list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives

SB: 3 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Spell pierce
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Counterbalance

http://deckstats.net/deck-828831-e8883f1e8b7326be5fc5d0807206fe35-en.html

I'm not sure on the MD Blood Moon, but I'll see.

The Countebalance curve is a little crappy, with 15 1 drops, 9 2 Drops. MAYBE we could cut 1 E. Tutor for the second Sword of the Meek.

Any thoughts or ideas?

[sdematt]

Basically, you use CB now to grind out combo or kill late game Ancestral Visions. I'm putting CB in my board.

Our viability has totally increased: You can now profitably fetch Humility, Moat, etc. I'm keep SFM since even if it gets roasted, it still searches for Combo pieces or Batterskull. My 3 MM have now becomes an extra e. Tutor and 2 Spell Snares.

Woot!

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

You're playing this list?



4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

BOARD

1 Counterbalance
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat/lockpiece


Shouldn't you go up to 4 Swords???

You're running 4 Spell Snares then? Have you considered 3 Spell Snares and 2 Counterspells (the singleton counterspell seems too random)?

No love for crucible of worlds?

I think you should drop a Plains for another Island, and cut the Plateau (maybe add Karakas?)

[sdematt]

I'm running:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, TMS
2 Spell Snare

3 SFM

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

---BOARD---

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 REB(not sure how good this is in the new meta, we'll see, could be more aggro hate)
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Counterbalance
1 Cursed Totem
1 Rule of Law
1 EE

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

I'm so glad I kept all my CounterTop Thopter related cards.

[The Treefolk Master]

It seems good, but I'm not totally convinced by the lack of Countertop.

[obituary 95]

So mental misstep is now gone. And we now have nevermore from the new set. So what do we do with this deck. Do we take it back to its base or what?

[DragoFireheart]

And we now have nevermore from the new set.

- What's your point?

[obituary 95]

My point is that the card could be good for the deck espically becuse it can shut down large swoths of hate cards. for example it can shut down k grip,deed and enginered explosives.

[DragoFireheart]

My point is that the card could be good for the deck espically becuse it can shut down large swoths of hate cards. for example it can shut down k grip,deed and enginered explosives.

- Sounds like a really good sideboard card. We can also fetch it with Enlightened Tutor...

Good catch. However, I don't think it's main-deck material (at least not on a glance).

[sdematt]

Warmth may be a decent 1-of, meta dependent of course. You can probably up your Spell Pierces to 3 if Reanimator starts to make a comeback as well. Not sure if Jin will remain the primary target, since you need Force to protect it reliably now, but we'll have to see.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

I doubt Reanimator will come back. Graveyard hate hurts it a lot, Storm decks are faster, and it lost MMS, which helped it control the first couple of turns.

[Pingu]

Has anyone thought in a list with Snapcaster Mage? He seems really good in this deck...

[sdematt]

For my sideboard, I was thinking:

1 Counterbalance (with one in the main)
1 Blood Moon
1 Cursed Totem
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Rule of Law
3 Path to Exile
1 Warmth/Leyline of Sanctity
1 Engineered Explosives

Basically, you're shitting on aggro and combo out of the board, even more so. I'm running 1 Moat 1 Humility and 2 Bridge main.

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

Instead of Warmth (having 1 Leyline just does not seem worth it), have you considered Aegis of Honor? It's so dumb vs. burn...

I really like the sideboard, the rule of law is sure to annoy the crap out of Storm Players.

In the last list you posted, you were not running EE maindeck, did you have any issues with non-creature permeantens? (Enchantress, Cranial Plating, etc).

Post-Innistrad, we could try Nevermore vs. Combo and Krosan grip...

[TheGodOfHouse]

@Morgothian:
I really like your latest list. What would you change from it post MM bannings? For now I just replaced 3 MMs with Spell Snares...

[eluvial]

Nevermore is interesting but I think it will be strictly worse than Meddling Mage. I would rather have the 2/2 body and play it sooner versus the matches I bring it in. They are also light on removal making the body rarely a liability. (Hive Mind, Enchantress, Storm, random combo)

[Bzka]

Due to obvious reasons i consider to change my uw stoneblade list to this deck. Looking at the previous lists posted i recognize the lack of Vendilion Clique, which have been MVP for controlish decks in the last months.
Is there any reason to not run them in thopter.decs?

[GexxX]

Is there any reason to not run them in thopter.decs?

Well it seems like having to spend 3Mana on their Draw Step (mostly) on an proactive spell is only good when you have some mana left to use Top. And Top seems to do more at the moment. I guess that's the main reason. ;)

[sdematt]

Clique isn't great against hordes of Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. It's really only good against more control and combo based lists. I think at the moment, it's better in the board.


-Matt

[obituary 95]

Nevermore is interesting but I think it will be strictly worse than Meddling Mage. I would rather have the 2/2 body and play it sooner versus the matches I bring it in. They are also light on removal making the body rarely a liability. (Hive Mind, Enchantress, Storm, random combo)

I disagree, becuse one of the reasons why this deck was not playing meddling mage in the sideboard or even in the maindeck was becuse of its fragility. And its ability to be destroyed with every piece of removal. Or just the need to block something and it dies. Where as a card like nevermore does not die very easily, especially if you name cards like I stated previously. it also has the ability to shore up match-ups that we have truble with after side boarding.

[eluvial]

Have you played much with Meddling Mage? It shines versus decks with few win conditions and little to no removal. It does not effect the game state and therefor must be very powerful in the matchup to be brought in. IMO it is only playable versus combo. The only matchup I could see Nevermore improving on MM is something like aggroloam if you have no other answers to Life from the Loam.

[sdematt]

Except, you know, Wheel of Sun and Moon/Tormod's Crypt? :P

-MAtt

[eluvial]

Yes I play both of those. I was just trying to think of a scenario for Nevermore being better than Mage.

[Bzka]

Or just the need to block something and it dies.

Why should preventing lethal damage be something bad?

[bluna]

Hey Guys

I'm new here in this forum, so please understand that i don't want to read all 40 pages of this thread. But I have some questions:

How much does cursed totem disturb our own SFM-Plan? I think there are some matchups where i want want to run both, so do you guys think it's valid to play them both? Or do you usually side out SFM+BS when siding in cursed totem?

[sdematt]

You use SFM like so:

If you can profit by grabbing Batterskull and protecting it, then you go that route, usually against aggro.

In the later game, you use it to grab Sword of the Meek. Even if you run Cursed totem, you're fine with it, since you can just easily cast the Sword, and you don't care if it's countered. Where Cursed Totem is good, it's really good (Pridemage, other SFM plans, Mishra's Factory, Dryad Arbor, Noble Hierarch, etc.)

-Matt

[Bliven731]

What do you guys think of this list?

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Unknown lands (Should I put in 1 volcanic island just for EE for 3?)

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of the Meek

Sideboard:
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
2 Wrath of God
2 Vendilion Clique
1 CoP: red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Energy Flux
1 Counter Balance
3 Unknown

Tell me what you guys think and what you can suggest for the unknown cards.

Edit: I wanted to point out this is for SCG Indianapolis this weekend.

[ivanpei]

This deck is so back from the dead now that mental misstep is gone. I'm planning on running this list:

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Etutor
4 Stp
3 Jace TMS
1 Moat
2 Bridge
3 Thopther
2 Sword
1 Oring

22 lands

Without Misstep, Tribal and Storm will be big again. Countertop thopthers does very well against these 2 decks.

Peacekeeper in the board for aggro and cliques for control/combo really forces opponents to pick their poison. Looking forward to playing this deck again!

[Pulp_Fiction]

I'm sorry, I don't need another site warning or temporary ban, but I am kind of drunk and can't help myself. This is not like the negative things I posted in the Merfolk thread. I HOPE this deck comes back. PLEASE, when MM goes, I WANT this deck to be good again. It is literally the best blue thing a combo player can see across from them. Focus hard and make this a DTB :)

[ivanpei]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or actually serious. Countertop thopters is a legit deck, so I don't really get your points. This deck Preboard is so-so vs storm. Post board, as long as you play a canonist and a few cliques, the matchup becomes very favorable vs storm. This deck's primary weakness is the control mirror where enlightened tutor's card disadvantage hurts too much.

[ArCoNisS]

Hi,
I have build this list for a futur tournament. I have make many tests vs Reanimator, Merfolks, Dredge, Dead guy, Affinity and High Tide with goods results.
When i played the classic list of counterThopter, i always wanted to play Ensnaring Bridge turn 3 with no card in hand vs many matchup and assemble Couterbalance + Top in others case. Thats why i have make this list :

Main Deck :

21 lands + 3 mox :
(8 fetchs for counterbalance + top. Many basics vs wasteland)
7 Island
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mrash Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 scaldind tarn

3 Chrome Mox

Locks :
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 propaganda
2 FOW

Draw + Tutors
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor

Kills :
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Utils :
1 needle
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Side :

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 relic of Progenitus
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 spellpierce
1 Humility
1 Nevermore
2 disenchant


Mana Curve :
1 : 13
2 : 10
3 : 8
4 : 3
5 : 2

What do you think about it ?

[heronimus]

I have to agree with Pulp_Fiction. For a good combo player this is the less worse blue matchup. I play almost exactly Ivanpei's list and lost several matches against ANT. Especially the good ANT players can play through the counters and hate. I always bring Spell Pierces in sideboard against combo.

@ Arconiss: Nice list. When I have some time, I will test it.

[ArCoNisS]

I m thinking about replacing propaganda by Energy field. I will test it in the future.

[sdematt]

Field seems meh. Discard/Wasteland blows you out? Awkward. I want my Mental Missteps back.

-Matt

[ArCoNisS]

Yes after tests Field is not a good idea in actual meta.

[Bzka]

Currently testing this list:

3x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
6x Island
2x Plains
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Tropical Island

cc0 (1)
1x EE

cc1 (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x E. Tutor
4x StoP
4x SDT

cc2 (10)
3x CB
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Counterspell

cc3 (4)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Oring
1x Vedalken Shackles (could be a 3rd bridge soon)

cc4 (3)
2x Jace, TMS
1x Humility

cc5 (4)
4x FoW

Sideboard (very experimental)
2x B2B
3x Spell Pierce
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Canonist
1x P. Metamorph
1x Needle
2x Disenchant
1x Wrath of God
1x Path to Exile



At the moment i am missing some serious testing against Combo and Maverick, but this list does quite well against aggro and tempo decks.

Any opinion / critism? Would combo crash me?

[heronimus]

Hello, you all. I'm playing for almost two years with this deck now. I like the 'oldskool' list the most, so without the Stoneforge Mystics. The list is very tight, so I don't see how it fits in anyway. I am very happy with my current list (see below). Especially the Ensnaring Bridges are great. Oh yeah, and the Back to Basics is just awesome!

I pack a lot of creature hate. My last addition is the Tolaria West mainboard, so I can go to Academy Ruins more easily. Also it gives the option for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in the board. What do you guys think of this?

CVC 0 (23):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra

1 Engineered Explosives

CVC 1 (18):
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

CVC 2 (8):
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

CVC 3 (3):
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Back to Basics

CVC 4 (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat

CVC 5 (4):
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Humility
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
1 Cursed Totem
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Counterbalance

[ArCoNisS]

Hi,
I have played a similar list in a tournament last week end and the principal problem was the time for killing opponent that made a lot of draw. Did you have similar problem with the deck ?

[heronimus]

Yeah, time is a problem. But I think we should play to win the first game and win/draw the second. Just as with Landstill. And I think expierenced players can play faster and make better dissisions. And this deck has a lot of dissisions... I still think there can be made aprovements to the decklist and to me as a player as well...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yeah, time is a problem.

This is why Stoneforge/Batterskull is the nuts here. Not only does it stall aggro, but it provides a fast clock and helps prevent you from going to time.

[ivanpei]

I advise playing a man plan in the board against control/combo to speed up matches. Especially Cliques! Opponents will definitely board out removal so a postboard man plan is actually pretty good. My board is this:

3 V Cliques
1 Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Back to Basics
4 Peacekeeper
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence

Beat Down with Cliques can help you get there faster. Post board against control, the weakest cards are the combo (3 Thopther + 2 sword + 1 Etutor) so I board them out for 3 Cliques, 2 Spell Pierce and 1 Back to Basics. Double Etutor is too much Card disadvantage so cutting a copy is fine.

Against Aggro, you guys really need peacekeeper, nobody ever keeps in removal, landing a peacekeeper is game over. If you really have trouble winning in time, Admiral_Arzar is right, Stoneforge helps some what, you can cut 4 Peacekeeper, 1 Aura of Silence from the board and add 4 SFM and a Batterskull. No one will expect it. SFM also fetches Sword for the combo finish.

[votan]

Learn to play the deck. Learn to make decisions faster. Learn to go from control to aggression at the right time. 50 minutes will be more than enough almost every time :)

[bluna]

Hey Guys,

I really love this deck, but mostly end up screwing myself up with it -.- I recognize my misplays afterwards but I think I need some general advice of How to play this deck. I read all the pages, but still I'm doing something terribly wrong ^^

My Meta is mostly Aggro/Control and pure Aggro (mostly Merfolk). My List is pretty Standard:
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Etutor
4 STP
2 Jace2.0
1 Humility
2 Bridge
3 Thopther
2 Sword
1 Oring
1 EE

22 Lands (1 Volcanic for EE@3 and Sideboard REB)


I think my main problem is, that I first tended to rush the Thopter combo on the table asap? Afterwards I thought it would be better to play more defensively and tried to lock them out (Humility/Bridge or CB/Top).But the opponents handled them with pridemage (G2/3 Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge) and just raced me.

Next thing I tried was setting up my CB/Top first but while doing this they hit me in the face by an army of dudes. Even with turn 2 CB and Turn 1 or 3 Top I almoust every time got beaten.

So now I'm asking you: Is my playstyle wrong? What lock would you set up first against that meta?
Or maybe should I fix my MD with some more removal (looking for Firespouts maybe). Or should I leave this Deck aside because it's to skill intensive. To be honest, this is the last thing I want to do =D

I'm pretty new to legacy (playing for about half a year), so I'm clearly lacking experience. Nevertheless I thought it would be nice to get some advice.

[candellum]

Add in wrath of god... it will help a lot, also an elspeth goes a long way against an aggro strategy under humility. Lasty i have had much success by adding in 2 stoneforge and 1 batterskull. being able to switch gears and have all that life gain really helps the matchup.

[Justin]

I don't like Wrath of God in this deck because you cannot fetch it with Enlightened Tutor. Cards such as Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and Humility fulfill the same function (albeit in different ways) in keeping your opponent's creatures from beating you and they can be fetched. Jace 2.0 is superior to Elspeth in this kind of deck, as it gives you a win-condition that is not shut down but your anti-creature artifacts/enchantments. I don't think Stoneforge is necessary in this deck. It has enough win-conditions and a very tight deck list. I don't like the idea of devoting three extra slots to this. You really don't want to cut into your toolbox or countermagic to make room. As a win condition, the SFM slots are directly competing with the Thopter/Sword combo and Jace. I really don't think you want to make that trade.

[ivanpei]

SFM maindeck is not a good idea. You give them a target for their removal (which is usually dead). If you really want to play SFM, she belongs in the board.

@ Bluna, you have to learn to switch gears against different decks. For example, @ Zoo: Always go for the Double lock which is either Double Bridge or Moat + Bridge. Try to always go for the double lock against decks packing Green because of Grip. You usually can't do anything about Grip so having 2 lock pieces really makes it hard for them to kill you. Different decks need different playstyles. For example:

Zoo (or decks with Grip/GSZ): Double Lock
Team America Style decks (Decks with Clique): Moat is obviously not very good, and CB/Top is bad against stuff like Tombstalker/Clique/Jace. Just Go for Bridge and Try to Rush out the Combo.
Merfolk: Resolve Bridge is GG, no brainer here.

Also don't try assembling the combo against anything control/blue. Your second piece will almost always get countered/killed. Then the first piece will look silly on the battlefield/you wasted too much cards (including the one not drawn when you etutor) trying to assemble the combo. Brainstorm Sword back into your deck and use Thopther as force food. Try not to cast Enlightened tutor and shuffle it away as much as possible. Always try to edge them out in the attrition war. Landing Cbalance/Top or Jace is the top priority in this matchup. Rushing out the combo does no good.

I always recommend Peacekeeper after board. Nobody will keep in removal so Peacekeeper is a very good addition. You can then kill them with Jace OR just assemble the combo. When you have enough tokens for lethal, just don't pay the upkeep and alpha them. The card is good, Grip looks silly when a Peacekeeper is holding down the fort.

[candellum]

I don't like Wrath of God in this deck because you cannot fetch it with Enlightened Tutor. Cards such as Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and Humility fulfill the same function (albeit in different ways) in keeping your opponent's creatures from beating you and they can be fetched. Jace 2.0 is superior to Elspeth in this kind of deck, as it gives you a win-condition that is not shut down but your anti-creature artifacts/enchantments. I don't think Stoneforge is necessary in this deck. It has enough win-conditions and a very tight deck list. I don't like the idea of devoting three extra slots to this. You really don't want to cut into your toolbox or countermagic to make room. As a win condition, the SFM slots are directly competing with the Thopter/Sword combo and Jace. I really don't think you want to make that trade.

How is elspeth shut down by our artifacts and enchantments??? her 1/1's attack under ensnaring bridge, her 4/4 flies over moat and humility, as well as humility makes her token generation amazing. I dont know how she is shut down... She also protects Jace, i have had multiple cases where i had both in hand, cast her then next turn cast jace. they protect each other and are oppressive.

Just Because we cant tutor for a card doesn't make it unplayable. with humility out causes our opponent to over extend in order to kill us. Wrath plays right into that.

i have played the deck without stone forge and with stone forge, the 3 slots are not that big of a problem i only run 2 foundries and 1 sword (since she can find) and i don't know if any of you have had a batterskull in play with humility but its just dirty. I probably am loosing 1 slot to counter magic due to this trade off but i feel that it is worth it. Also they can use their removal on her if they want. it just makes her an E tutor that doesn't cause us card disadvantage, since we do not rely on her to do much other than tutor. I don't find that i need to use the vial in ability as much as you would think, my deck tends to be able to hit land drops no problem.

I am not saying every decision i have made is right i still think these decisions would be a good choice for bluna due to his heavy aggro meta.

[Gollus]

I will play this deck at the grand prix amsterdam:

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island



3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Moat
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Firespout



SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon

Curve
0: 23
1: 13
2: 11
3: 5
4: 3
5: 5

The maindeck is good against a big variety of decks but i am not sure about the SB.

relic/crypt_________obvious.
humility___________i like moat more, so Humility got the sb slot.
wrath_____________not sure about this.
path to exile________against aggro it's a nice thing to have more pointremoval.
grim lavamancer____Filler.
spell pierce________Filler.
red elemental blast__always good.
Ancient Grudge_____with flashback really awesome
blood moon________is the unexpected "uups i win" button.

Wrath,spell pierce and grim lavamancer don't look so nice in the board. Perhaps a little bit more against combo like Meddling Mage should go in, and i think i need some enchantment removal too.

Expected Meta:
A lot of Combo(Storm/Belcher/Elves)
A lot of Aggro(Merfolk/Maverick/Zoo)
less Aggrocontrol (Reanimator/*****/Team America)
just a few Controldecks
and of course like t1.5 is, every deck that exists as a 1of.

any suggestions?

[Piceli89]

Round the Countertop combo to 4 each. Storm is gaining a huge resurgency. Also, I personally ditched Stonrforge Mystic and filled the 2 cc curve with other options. I'm finding Pyroclasm to be extremely powerful these days (I play UWr).

[GGoober]

Where Tempo Thresh can sadly no longer play Pyroclasms in the SB because of gaining Delver of Secrets, and expecting a potential huge resurgence in Tempo decks, Piceli is spot on with Pyroclasm. I've played Pyroclasm in Canadian Thresh SB and it can single-handedly win games. If there's a ton of tribal, and the new tempo decks with Delvers, and fair amounts of Maverick/SFM, Pyroclasm is pretty brutal (also hits flying faeries)

[bluna]

Hey Guys

First of all, thank you for your help! Especially ivanpei, your explanations about how to fight different decktypes told me big lessons!

@Justin:
I don't like wrath of god, because it's almost always to slow against so many decks like fish or tempo. Especially with them playing dazes and other countermagic. If i would go the boardsweeper-route, i would definitly take firespout, since they come a round earlier and hit almost the same. For Elspeth it's the same thing: too slow and doesn't have that much of an impact like bridge.

@gollus:
I have two questions:
1) against what decks do you board in Blood Moon? Because u call it the "i win button", so there must be some decks out there wich can be fisted really hard with moon effects.
2) What do you need Ancient Grudge for? I assume Batterskull/Sword of X and Y isn't that much of a problem since you play double bridge and Moat. What artifacts are that scary to you? MUD.deck? Affinity?

@all:
My sideboard would look like:
3 Peacekeeper (as suggested from ivanpei)
3 Vendillion Clique (to fight combo and Control)
3 Red Elemental Blast (godlike against so many decks)
2 Surgical Extraction (very good against combo)
1 Relic of Progenitus (against Dredge/Knight/Goyf decks)
1 Tormod's Crypt (same)
1 Cursed Totem (I think it will help alot against Pridemage, Knight, and other G-based creature decks)
1 open slot i cant really decide.

Maybe the open slot will be Wheel of Sun and Moon, because it's nearly Autowin against Dredge/Reanimator. Especially with 3 Peacekeeper, 2 Extraction and Crypt/Relic. In my meta, Dredge is one of the decks you will almost always play against, so having a good MU postboard is fine for me ^^

Maybe after gollus explanations the open slot will be Blood Moon ^^

Do you think i should pack in more removal? Maybe -1 REB -1 Clique +2 removalspells? Since my meta is full of Aggro-Control decks like Maverick and Merfolk. But as you all know,combo will have a big revival, so REB and Clique might be better. I think it depends on how my meta changes ^^ My question now is: would you prefer sweeper like firespout or would you rather play spotremoval in form of PTE?

BTW: thanks for helping a newbie ^^

[Gollus]

I see that pyroclasm is a strong card. On the one hand it isn’t enough against Zoo
or merfolk with 2 lords (rare situation as you need clasm only in the early turns without Bridge or something similar) but on the other it’s cheaper to cast and kills nearly all creatures except Zoo’s pets.


@ bluna: As the meta gets faster a huge amount of decks use more nonbasics. I don't play wasteland but lots of nonbasics too so nobody expects a blood moon from the sb. they don't search for basics and then the blood moon steals games. It's good against nearly every deck with more than 10 nonbasics as Treshhold, Storm, dredge..... Turn 3 Blood Moon wins you the game or brings you so much time till they find enough basics to actually play anything and at this point it's too late for them or you have at least a Counterbalance online.

Ancient Grudge is good against a lot of annoying cards like Mishras Factory or Aether Vial. And you haven't always a Bridge or Moat in game against equipped creatures.

[sdematt]

Zoo doesn't usually fetch for basics, from what I've seen. I think an early Blood Moon should help you shut off their ability to go get a Pridemage against you.

-Matt

[Piceli89]

I've recently switched from Landstill to this deck, due to several factors (Storm combo returning, the proliferation of tempo decks, and the general incapability to play a purely Control deck without dying to your own screw and random broken stuff or a single Wasteland).
There are some considerations I'd like to express. I haven't tested the deck extensively yet so some of them may be flawed, but I've played a handful of games against Canadian Threshold and the major tiers, and I've followed the archetype evolving since its inception and lists Morgothian has publlished.

-Ensnaring Bridge is too good, it wins games alone. This is pretty Capitan Obvious, but just to reiterate the concept to those who're playing still with a singleton maindeck. It 's just the card around which you're building your decisions in certain matchups, saving your counters for using the other spells as lure, and your first ETutor target. Merfolks doesn't have a way to solve it. Reanimator, Goblins, Canadian Threshold, Team America neither. With Bridge you're basically forcing them to win in narrow ways (depleting your manabase just to make you unable to cast the stuff you draw, but it's kinda undoable) or to dig for a Jace. Since this deck can be pretty much considered as a blue-based prison deck with a low spell density and a high permanent threat one, Bridge is surely optimized.

-Stoneforge Mystic: still necessary? As I was saying in a previous post, without Misstep the alternate plan of fetching Batterskull doesn't sound that appealing to me anymore. You're giving them targets for removal and wasting room for a now-suboptimal pattern of cards. I think it's better to use those slots to optimize the other plans of the deck, i.e. increasing the Thopter-combo pieces to 4 (3+1), playing 4 Counterbalances, and use the remaining 2 slots for something else. What I've noticed is that this deck sometimes doesn't manage to find a win-condition in time, and 2+1 pieces of the Foundry aren't always enough (especially if you're playing just 2 Etutors like me). Foundry is a real threat because control decks feel urged to counter it, especially when you've reached 4 mana, because of the fear of Sword following. And less to no one control deck is packing a solution to the combo pre-side (the only thing I can think of is Jace Landeed with Pernicious Deed).

-An optimal curve for Counterbalance should consist, in my opinion, of something along the lines of 16 cc1- 10-11 cc2- 5 cc3- 3 cc4 (-4 cc5, Fow). I've seem lists playing only 13 cc1 slots; which is wrong because you're lowering your chances to blind-flip the critical cmc with a lone Counterbalance. Keep also in mind that the format is getting quicker after Misstep, and the core of the cards played is slowly moving to that zone (once again, think Storm and Canadian Threshold). Natural Order and Jace are slightly decreasing in number, as a natural consequence of NORug and Stoneblade departing in numbers. That said, the cc1 section should be focused on:
- mandatory pieces: 4 SDT, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Plows, 2 ETutors.
- optional pieces: 1-2 more Etutors, (2 Spell Snares/a Path/something else).

I'm currently playing with 2 Snares because they strenghten the matchup against black-based decks on the draw, as well as being a response to Qasali Pridemage and the new-staple Snapcaster Mage. Options may vary of course here, but personally I don't like to fill the deck with a full set of Enlightened tutor, because opening a hand with 2 of them just make card disadvantage. The deck can function with its lock pieces played in squared numbers (4 CB- 2 Bridges) already pretty well, so Etutor acts just like a complementation, not an engine to revolve around.

-Humility maindeck? Although the advantage of having a tutorable 4cc is pretty sweet against opposing Jaces, I actually dislike it maindeck for two reasons: first, you would be cutting a Jace slot for it, and I think Jace is way more strong and valuable in this deck, as it creates a lock both with the Countertop engine and with a Bridge on the table. You're aiming to dig for a Jace in almost every matchup, as it's also the only source of "sure" card advantage you have. On another point of view, Humility is a nombo with Ensnaring Bridge, and this is pretty remarkable; and, unlike Bridge, it doesn't stop creatures from beating you, which may force you to dig quickly for a Firespout or to sac the Foundry to trade 1 for 1s.
I still concede that it's a definitive solution, pre-side, in dealing with GSZ+Qasali decks. Still, I don't think it deserves a slot maindeck, for the reasons stated above.

- The 3cc section varies a lot between builds. If we can agree about double Bridge being that good, what are your thoughts about the other slots? I'm currently playing 1 Firespout, 1 Clique, and a Shackles. I wanted Clique (originally played 2) to have another strong tool against control and combo; Firespout, although being the weaker among the others, is just fine sometimes in resetting a board, and Shackles acts like an additional win-condition. I fear the lack of a tutorable piece of removal (Oblivion Ring), but I thought about the most probable targets it would hit: Jace, Emrakul and Sylvan Library. Although this last one seriously hurts if resolved, the deck's already well equipped to deal with the other 2. What are your thoughts about these slots? Is ring necessary?

------------------------------------------------------------------
@Ivanpei: Pyroclasm is pretty brutal, you're right, but I've found myself with it stuck in hand against already-thresholded Mongooses, or it being pretty dead against Zoo, where it just hits Hierarches. It's pretty much a love-hate relation: card is godly or shitty depending on the situation. Firespout is sometimes better, sometimes worse. Pyroclasm has the upside of hitting Vendilion Clique and flipped Delvers, but gets hit by Snare. Nacatls are 3/3s, and Qasalis would be ofc sacced on out stuff in response, so its use becomes pretty narrow. It acts like a Mini-Wrath against Maverick and tribals, but Maverick can be won assembling the Thopter combo quickly (another reason for which I added the 3rd Foundry), while tribal just folds to a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. Long story short, I cut it and contemplate trying it into the sideboard for those matchup, of just drop it completely.

------------------------------------------------------------------



SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon



This is the best sideboard I've read of in the last pages. It's just well balanced and prepared for an unknown metagame. The only thing I'd change is the Ancient Grudge, which I question because Stoneforge decks will decrease in number, thus not being able to make card advantage with that frequency Grudge used to provide. If you want to play another strong piece against artifact-heavy decks (Affinity, MUD), if it's really necessary, I'd go for the singleton Energy Flux. Paying for your own Tops and Bridges may hurt, though, so I don't know.
I'd also try to find a slot or 2 for Vendilion Clique. Against control decks, you're siding out the double Bridge and the Firespout/Oblivion Ring/Shackles. If you want to keep the CB curve unchanged, you need a 3rd cc slot that comes in replacing those. Finally, I'd make room for a Seal of Cleansing: this deck loses to Choke. You need a solution to it. Against Maverick and Junk, you're usually bringing out a number of Fows, so you may be unprepared against a resolved Choke when you tap out to play a lock piece. Spell Pierces help, but aren't enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoping to have given some food for thoughts and not having written a sea of BS, I want to give a bit of discussion. Deck's pretty sweet and has a the potential to do pretty well again, especially because it plays a defensive role ala Stax: dropping a must-answer/must-counter/auto-win threat one after the other. Whilst keeping a strong structure (lots of basic) and flexibility, as well as being built in the best colour.

[Gollus]

I like Stoneforge Mystic because he gives the option to end the game fast. You only need 1 Mystic into Batterskull instead of the 2 card combo and he also finds Sword of the Meek so you can enable the combo faster. Then you have Enlightened Tutor to search for Thopter Foundry. He also generates card advantage, is a blocker and a 3rd turn Batterskull is strong against Aggro, Burn, Tendrils(if you can stop him in the first turns). As he is a target for removal, he already has done his job. Batterskull and Bridge/Moat don't fit together but then you just search for Sword of the Meek.

I like the Idea of having more Counter so i put 2 Spell Snare maindeck. This increase the 1 manaspellcount too.

Is Vedalken Shackles good enough? I think it is really slow, especially in the new speeded up meta. And against aggro is Bridge mostly better.

Counterbalance/Top setting to 4 pieces each may be good put the space is really tight and i am happy with just 3.

SB:

Isn't Wheel of Sun and Moon too slow against dredge or Reanimate? You need 2 white Mana and you have with the tutors only 3 cards to get it out turn 2. Put the mainconcern is that all cards allready in the grave stay there. Pro is of course the fact that it's not a one time effect.

possible other sb-cards:
Cursed Totem/Humility - Cards they are against for are mainly Quasali Pridemage and Emrakul. But i think Emrakul won't be played anymore. So Humility is too expensive to cast and Cursed Totem has only restricted usage)

Peacekeeper - another good 3 drop against Aggro

Pyroclasm/Firespout/Wrath/Grim Lavamancer - which one's the most commendable?
Pyroclasm is fast and kills the most creatures, Firespout kills Zoo and Mongoose, Wrath is good against bigger creatures like Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary but 4 mana is a lot and Bridge/Moat does this job quite well, Lavamancer is fast, good against nonZooAggro, Dredge, Control...

Meddling Mage/Nevermore/Vendilion Clique - Meddling Mage is fast and can start beating, Nevermore is tutorable and harder to get rid off, Clique beats better and is more versatile. All three are good against combo and Krosan Grip.

List so far:

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 Plains
5 Island


1 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Moat
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top


2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
2 Spell Snare


SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
1 Firespout
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Blood Moon

Curve
0: 22
1: 15
2: 10
3: 5
4: 3
5: 5

Changes:
2 Spell Snare in.
1 Stoneforge out (2 are enough, you don't want to draw more than one)
1 EE out (i never tutor for it because there is always a better target. The only thing it's good is against 0 Mana tuff like Empty the Warrens tokens or LED)
1 Firespout into side (Firespout is a dead card against so many decks)
1 Vendilion Clique in (as 3mana replacement)
Without the green from Firespout/EE/Ancient Grudge flashback, the landbase changed a little bit.

[obituary 95]

quick question why is counterspell still in the deck. the card is way to slow. and it seems really clunky. the deck sort of wants to use a lot of mana. also I do not really think that peacekeeper is that good of a sideboard card. beacuse every deck runs removal right now.

[Sansian]

The idea is that they board their removal in the second game. The third game, if one occurs, you have a rock paper scissors situation where you can remove them again if you think they are replacing their removal.

[Gollus]

@obituary 95: Counterspell is on turn 2 castable. Why is this too slow? It's a perfect Counter in the 2 mana slot and has no targetlimitation.
This deck has no creatures in it worth playing removal against. So for game 2 the creature removals are getting changed to artifact/enchantment removals and Peacekeeper lies undisturbed around.

[obituary 95]

@obituary 95: Counterspell is on turn 2 castable. Why is this too slow? It's a perfect Counter in the 2 mana slot and has no targetlimitation.
This deck has no creatures in it worth playing removal against. So for game 2 the creature removals are getting changed to artifact/enchantment removals and Peacekeeper lies undisturbed around.

beacuse in a lot of match ups it is to slow to counter the cards that matter. for instance you are not able to counter a turn one aether vial, and then the card gets worse if you are on the draw since it can not counter cards like qusali priidemage played on turn two.

[sdematt]

I'm also questioning the SFM plan, but if you can keep BS on board, it wrecks aggro, and lategame, it fetches Sword, allowing you to save your E. Tutors.

Humility main is really good, I've found, as is Moat, so I'm running both (greedy, but worth it). Sometimes, you want to just Moat out the game and run over with Thopters, other times, you just want to shut EVERYTHING down (like an active Lavamancer or something, for example).

I'd almost want to run 4 Snares in the main, since it hits all the stuff you're trying to deal with (Qasali, Confidant, Hymn, etc.). 2 Bridge main is a must, since you just hose Merfolk in every way possible.

-Matt

[anomie-p]

I'm also questioning the SFM plan, but if you can keep BS on board, it wrecks aggro, and lategame, it fetches Sword, allowing you to save your E. Tutors.

I am considering Snapcaster instead of Stoneforge. I played in a store legacy tournament on Friday, and although overall I got smashed (because I am a terrible player anyway and new to legacy to boot), eot snapcaster, flashback E. Tutor seemed really good.

[obituary 95]

I actually tried a split between snapcaster and stoneforge. the snapcaster was ok but one of the problems with the card is that it does not really do any thing fast enough. there were also a lot of times where i would draw him on turn to and just look at him for a good four turns before he did anything. that was my issues with him but I would still encourage you to try him out. he might work better than mystic. who knows

[Arew]

I'm new to this deck, but I decided that I wanted to try to make this my new go-to deck and here is my current list after a day or so of testing:

Creatures:
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Lands:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
5x Island
2x Plains
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Academy Ruins

Artifacts/Enchantments:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Humility
1x Back to Basics
1x Vedalken Shackles
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Batterskull

Spells:
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Spell Pierce

Planeswalkers:
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
4x Thoughtseize
2x Wrath of God
2x Counterbalance
1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Spellskite
2x Spell Pierce


So far I've only had a chance to test against U/W Stoneforge, Goblins, and Maverick, but I'm having trouble with U/W Stoneforge because of the amount of Spell Snare's that he runs with Snappy, Goblins I only played two games preboard and lost because I tried to be greedy, and against Maverick, I've only played preboard, and it seems to come down to if I can resolve Humility or not. Any comments on my list would be awesome.

[obituary 95]

I'm new to this deck, but I decided that I wanted to try to make this my new go-to deck and here is my current list after a day or so of testing:

Creatures:
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Lands:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
5x Island
2x Plains
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Academy Ruins

Artifacts/Enchantments:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Humility
1x Back to Basics
1x Vedalken Shackles
2x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Batterskull

Spells:
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Spell Pierce

Planeswalkers:
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
4x Thoughtseize
2x Wrath of God
2x Counterbalance
1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Spellskite
2x Spell Pierce


So far I've only had a chance to test against U/W Stoneforge, Goblins, and Maverick, but I'm having trouble with U/W Stoneforge because of the amount of Spell Snare's that he runs with Snappy, Goblins I only played two games preboard and lost because I tried to be greedy, and against Maverick, I've only played preboard, and it seems to come down to if I can resolve Humility or not. Any comments on my list would be awesome.

here are the cards I would cut.
1 batterskull
1 Humility
1x Back to Basics
1x Vedalken Shackles
1Vendilion Clique

cards I would look into cuting
2 jace the mindsculptor
snapcaster mage

general notes.
fix up your mana base, I really do not see a reason to splash three colors. and lets be serious four thougtseize is not going to hinder combo decks all that much. play more core cards. these cards are like swords to plowshares and sensis diving top and counterbalence

reasons why
lets start at the top here with the batterskull. batterskull is a card that is really good. but it really does very little against zoo. it does not kill cards such as night of the reliquary. which if it goes unanswered is a pain in the side. and there is this great idea going around becuse of dogma that batterskull just beats merfolk. and this is not true at all. the decks that run and depend on batterskull to be a threat also play quite a bit of other anti-creature cards as well. batterskull does not just win the game against merfolk. it is mearly the instrament that gets countrol decks ahead on life. and not to mention the card looses alot of value if the combat ever becumes in the sky. or your opponent simply stops sending his creature into the readzone.

2, humility.
I played this card for a long time and it is really powerfull. but it is also really sketchy and is really slow. and I had continued experiences where my opponene would be able to come over with his flock of 1/1s and he would eventually win. plus other than being a card used to counter jaces when counterbalence is in play the card does not do anything in the early game. and it seems to be takeing away slots from core cards such as swords to plowshares

3, back to basics
ok lets be honest what is this card doing. we are not a deck that really needs this type of effect. plus the way you have built your mana base can make it a awkward card for you to ever fetch up and use since some of your more powerfull lands are nonbasic.

4, we gain a advantage by not giving our opponents good creatures to use there removal on.

5, vendalkin shakels. man I thought we already went over this. this card again is to slow and is just to mana intensive. the only things I really want to spend five mana on is force of will.

6,reasons why I would look into cuting jace the omg sculptor and snappy (scm)
jace is a card that is much better in slower formats. plus i have really never understud why we even play this card. it really adds very little to the deck. this deck is not a deck based of card advantage. we are almost the exact opposite. and the reason why I would consider cuting scm is that in my experience he seems to help more proactive agro decks much more than reactive decks. part of the reason why this is so is becuse they play spells much more quickly. they also have a higher density of spell than we do.

[sdematt]

Someone placed Top 8 in a big Italian Tournament with this deck, the list is:

1 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Firespout
2 Wrath of God
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Plague
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpto
SIDE
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt


And since you're all lazy buggers, I've posted the T8 here so we all know what we'll have to face, on average:

Liste top8 e deckbreackdown
Ringrazio Anda semplicemente un angelo per la collaborazione nello svolgere questo meticoloso lavoro:

36 maverick
29 Merfolk
25 zoo
24 Candian
23 Ant/Tes
21 Spiral Tide
19 NO RUG
13 reanimator
13 dredge
12 NLU
12 burn
11 Thopter Combo
11 Team America
9 Belcher
8 rock
8 MUD
8 Bant
7 URG Control
7 goblin
6 landeed
6 hive mind
6 affinity
4 White Weenie
4 Team Italia
4 sneack attack
4 junk
4 Caw Blade
3 Stiflenought
3 pikula
3 Pattern Combo
3 Faery Stoneforge
3 Eva Green
3 enchantress
3 Elf Combo
2 UW Control
2 show and tell
2 Painter
2 Landstill
2 Infect
2 Dragon Stompy
2 Dark *****
2 Aggroloam
1 White Stax
1 UR Ninja
1 Ur control
1 stoneforge TA
1 Splinter Twin
1 show and tell NO
1 most
1 Mono U
1 Mono Black
1 Mesmeric Orb Combo
1 eureka.deck
1 dream halls
1 Defense NO
1 Dark Depths
1 cephalid breakfast
1 Birting Pod
1 Aluren

Liste: http://magictutor.org/library/tournament/259

1° Classificato - Marcotti Davide con Team America
3 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SIDE
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Extirpate
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nihil Spellbomb

2° Classificato - Sartini Roberto con Other - Aggro
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Ponder
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SIDE
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus

3° Classificato - Milillo Andrea con Thopter Combo
1 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Firespout
2 Wrath of God
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Plague
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpto
SIDE
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

4° Classificato - Fedeli Lorenzo con Spiral Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
SIDE
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away

5° Classificato - Giarola Andrea con G/W Aggro
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SIDE
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

6° Classificato - Blasi Matteo con Threshold Ugr (Canadian)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Fire/Ice
SIDE
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness

7° Classificato - Scalchi Massimo con RUG Order
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Fire/Ice
SIDE
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Divert
1 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

8° Classificato - Moyschewitz Fabian con Threshold Ugr (Canadian)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Fire/Ice
SIDE
1 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Pyroclasm
2 Mind Harness
3 Tormod's Crypt


-Matt

[Yan]

Split the finals of a local tournament yesterday, 20 players

Swiss went 3-0-2 with 2 ID:s on the last rounds. (Team America, BW StoneBlade, URb StifleNought, [TES, UW StoneBlade])

In top 8 I plaeyd a 2 hour counterbalance "mirror", I end up winning the last game in 10 minutes with counterbalance lock and Clique. In top 4 I beat combo elves, both games he went for aggro plan and I won on 1-3 life with a total lock. We split the finals with the UW StoneBlade...probably would have been a favourable matchup but it was enoung playing for that day.

Lands:

7 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

Other Spells:

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Force of Will

SB:

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance
1 Energy Flux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I would probably add 1 Jace more somewhere, other than that it felt solid.

[Yan]

Split the finals of a local tournament yesterday, 20 players

Swiss went 3-0-2 with 2 ID:s on the last rounds. (Team America, BW StoneBlade, URb StifleNought, [TES, UW StoneBlade])

In top 8 I played a 2 hour counterbalance "mirror", I end up winning the last game in 10 minutes with counterbalance lock and Clique. In top 4 I beat combo elves, both games he went for aggro plan and I won on 1-3 life with a total lock. We split the finals with the UW StoneBlade...probably would have been a favourable matchup but it was enoung playing for that day.

Lands:

7 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

Other Spells:

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Force of Will

SB:

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance
1 Energy Flux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I would probably add 1 Jace more somewhere, other than that it felt solid.

[anomie-p]

I actually tried a split between snapcaster and stoneforge. the snapcaster was ok but one of the problems with the card is that it does not really do any thing fast enough. there were also a lot of times where i would draw him on turn to and just look at him for a good four turns before he did anything. that was my issues with him but I would still encourage you to try him out. he might work better than mystic. who knows

Hmm - the way I've been playing, once I have top + CB down, I just eot top, draw land and play draw-go until I draw or tutor up a thopter foundry and sword of the meek. So having snapcaster to flashback STP or Brainstorm or ETutor actually sometimes gives me a quicker win, and sometimes gives me a shot to counter something for 1WU (Snapcaster, ET) or 1UU (Snapcaster, brainstorm), dependent on having the right cmc in my library or hand, if I can't find the right cmc with top - which is good if I really, really need to not let something resolve. Like I said, though, I'm new, so I'm sort of worried that it's fine but maybe not good enough overall. I've been playing it as a 2-of.

[obituary 95]

Hmm - the way I've been playing, once I have top + CB down, I just eot top, draw land and play draw-go until I draw or tutor up a thopter foundry and sword of the meek. So having snapcaster to flashback STP or Brainstorm or ETutor actually sometimes gives me a quicker win, and sometimes gives me a shot to counter something for 1WU (Snapcaster, ET) or 1UU (Snapcaster, brainstorm), dependent on having the right cmc in my library or hand, if I can't find the right cmc with top - which is good if I really, really need to not let something resolve. Like I said, though, I'm new, so I'm sort of worried that it's fine but maybe not good enough overall. I've been playing it as a 2-of.

What list are you playing if you dont mind me asking?

for reference here is my current list

4 top
1 meek
4 thopter foundry

creatures
3 stonefore mystics

enchantments
4 counterbalence
1 nevermoore

spells
4 brainstorm
2 counter spell
4 dismember
4 enlightened tutor
4 force of will
3 spell pierce

land
4 flooded strand
9 island
1 misty rainforest
4 plains
3 tundra

and by the way i got third a few weeks ago at a local tournament and won a mox dimond. there were only eight people .

[anomie-p]

I honestly don't know how good it is. I seem to win enough, but it's in the tourney practice room where opponents can be hit or miss. I try to have an E. Tutor target at each CMC up to 5. I figured Batterskull at 5 would be ok without mystic because mystic almost always gets killed anyway (in my experience).

Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Moat
1 Batterskull

Lands
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
5 Island

(Note that I don't have a Moat in paper, so I use Humility instead there)

Sideboard I have
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Energy Flux
1 Aura Flux
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

(23 lands, 15 1-cmc, 10 2-cmc, 4 3-cmc, 5 5-cmc maindeck)
(The rest of the SB slots I am floating around and changing a lot and haven't really settled on yet - Trying things like Firespout, O-Ring, more EE, some spell snare, some spell pierce, etc)

Edit -> Fun things I've done w/ the above deck:
counter deed by E. Tutor for Shackles with CB trigger on stack, then beat the guy to death with his own 'goyf.
Against that same deck (game 3) -> he plays turn 2 depths, turn 3 hexmage, sac for Marit Lage token. I top, put tolaria west as top card, untap, draw, transmute for karakas, play it, bounce token. Win it many, many turns later by playing sword of the meek, go with Foundry already on the board and a ton of open mana - the turn after he gets his second Marit Lage.
Played through 2 relic activations with EOT sac sword to make a guy, (opponent activates relic), sac Seat to make a guy, (opponent activates second relic), flip & sac top to make a guy + draw one, get sword back, let relic activations resolve.
Killed opponent's Jace (that he'd had on the board long enough to push it up to 13) through his Tombstalker with Thopter/Sword making tokens at end of turn, then killed opponent.

Things that have killed me:
Early hand disruption w/ my having no brainstorm in hand or no land on the board
Mana denial when I can't find basics (example: an opponent wastelanded a white source when I had a Moat and a land in hand and two white and a blue source on the board)
Burn decks (I don't know if I play correctly against them)
I've beaten affinity game 1 with lucky draws (usually involving getting a shackles, with them having just a slightly slow draw) but they usually smash me (hence the E. Tutor -> Energy Flux sideboard plan).

[Gollus]

After testing a little bit more my deck changed to this:


Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
6 Island

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Moat
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blood Moon

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
2 Spell Snare


SB:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spell Snare
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout

@anomie-p: instead of 1 Energy Flux and 1 Aura Flux you can possibly play Aura of Silence. Doesn't help so much against enchamntments/artifacts already played but doesn't effect yours either.
And Aura Flux is mostly against Enchantress, Energy Flux against Affinity, but Aura of Silence helps against a lot of decks.

[sdematt]

Why the switch to only 2 E. tutor?

-Matt

[sdematt]

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Underground Sea
23

1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
17

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
3 Spell Snare

I think I'm in a bit more Red than you, but I want certain cards for the board:

1 EE (Anyone using this to much success? I've never wanted to lose it though, it's always useful)
3 REB
2 Spell Pierce
1 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Torpor Orb
2 Path to Exile

Thoughts?

-Matt

[anomie-p]

@anomie-p: instead of 1 Energy Flux and 1 Aura Flux you can possibly play Aura of Silence. Doesn't help so much against enchamntments/artifacts already played but doesn't effect yours either.
And Aura Flux is mostly against Enchantress, Energy Flux against Affinity, but Aura of Silence helps against a lot of decks.

Isn't Affinity fast enough that Aura of Silence won't help much? I have actually had people kill me with Affinity on turn three through an Energy Flux by paying for ravager and saccing everything else out.

I am actually considering Energy Flux against affinity and Serenity against enchantress - and bringing both Energy Flux and Serenity in against Affinity. I can't seem to find a Serenity online, though.

[heronimus]

Hi guys,

I placed second in a small local tourney in the Netherlands. I only lost twice to Eternal Rock in the rounds and in the finale. And I lost to UGB thresh, but we already ID'd. In the T4 I won against him. I also won against a Planeswalkers deck, NO RUG and StifleNought.

The Rock matchup was very difficult, I almost had no chance. He played 4 Qasali Pridemages en 4 Vindicate. End he was able to land a Choke against me, while I couldn't find any answers. I played with the following list:

CVC 0 (23):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra

1 Engineered Explosives

CVC 1 (18):
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

CVC 2 (8):
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

CVC 3 (3):
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Back to Basics

CVC 4 (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat

CVC 5 (4):
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
4 Peacekeeper
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Counterbalance

What do you guys do against Rock-decks? They have a lot of great cards against us. Maybe we need Nevermore in the board? Krosan Grip and Vindicates are our greatest enemys I think.

[Gollus]

i haven't switched to 2 tutors, i never played more. Tutor makes carddisadvantage and with top brainstorm and fetchies i already find what i am searching for constantly. The tutortarget i search most frequently are Bridge or the other part of the Thopter/Sword combo. Counterbalance is often already available, as i play 4. In my list the Blood Moon is the most searched target. But i am thinking of adding maybe 1 tutor more and EE too but i don't know what to cut in main and sb, or switch into sb.

btw: a resolved Counterbalance against us is extremely strong. And a resolved Blood Moon against the opponnent is neckbreaking most of the time.


on the flux question: as you said is energy flux also too slow. And it's only good against a few decks. Aura can be boarded in against every deck playing artifacts or enchantments.

[sdematt]

Rock loves to play against this deck, because it makes Pernicious Deed good. If you want to play a good card against it, try Karmic Justice.

-Matt

[anomie-p]

on the flux question: as you said is energy flux also too slow. And it's only good against a few decks. Aura can be boarded in against every deck playing artifacts or enchantments.

A resolved Energy Flux is "They have to untap and kill you or lose" against affinity. (which they sometimes can).
A resolved Aura of Silence would seem to be just offsetting some of the decrease they get from affinity for artifacts, and maybe their plating costs 4 if they haven't dropped it yet.

The point was not that E. Flux is too slow (it's devastating if they *can't* untap and kill you, which they often can't). The point was that, I wanted a one-of that would considerably help the affinity matchup, and I don't think Aura is that (I'm open to being wrong on that, and I'm going to playtest it some - but I don't see it helping against affinity enough).

With 3 E. Tutors and an energy flux in the deck, it's right around 60% (if I've done the math right) to get what you need for a turn 3 flux if you're willing to aggressively mull (down to 4) to try and find it - not counting hands that you might draw that could beat affinity without an E. Flux. What I really want to know is, is that good enough to make E. Flux worth it against affinity?

[sdematt]

You could run Serenity, as well. You also get to yell, "Serenity now!" when you bust it. I'm pretty sure that's worth it.

-Matt

[anomie-p]

You could run Serenity, as well. You also get to yell, "Serenity now!" when you bust it. I'm pretty sure that's worth it.

Sounds like a plan. :wink:

[Gollus]

finally I have time to write a short tournamentreport from GP Amsterdam.

Decklist:
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
6 Island

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Moat
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blood Moon

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
2 Spell Snare


SB:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spell Snare
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura of Silence
1 (Seal of Cleansing) edit: this slot was EE
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout




1st Round: Belcher
1:He took two mulligans and did nothing. Mystic into Batterskull kills.
2:He tried to win turn 2 with just 2 manamorphose in hand but didn't draw anything. top-> Counterbalance->Clique

1.0.0



2nd Round: Bant
1:We both played Stoneforge/(Force,Spellsnare) to ged rid off respective other Stoneforge in the early turns. Then he drew a Elspeth which killed me.
2:Moon took him out of the game. Counterbalance lock too but I was not able to kill him so i won by milling him because he had less cards in library.
3:He played too much creatures and killed me.

1.1.0



3rd Round: Belcher
1: 2nd turn kill and I had no force.
2: CB, Clique with EE and Firespout was too much for him.
3: I took three Mulligans and kept a hand with 2 Force a Land and a Clique. I drew no lands but enough blue cards to support both forces. Later Clique killed.

2.1.0



4th Round: Merfolk
1: First turn Top. Second CB than Bridge and Jace. He hit me down to 1 life and I managed to win with Jace, 0 cards in hand, a moat and of course just 1 life.
2: I took 3 Mulligans and kept a hand with no blue manaproducing lands and an EE. Wasn't enough.
3: He beat me to 6 and I got 2 Bridges into play. He still attacked with Cursecatcher but Jace and 0 cards in hand won.

3.1.0



5th Round: Jacestill
1: I tutored for Moon which takes him out of the game. Jace won for me.
2: A hard long battle with Jace killed Jace actions, Deed killed CB and Batterskull, Deed killed Moon and after 30 minutes he won with Factorys.
3: We both fought till our hands were empty. I drew a jace but unfortunately he also, so we ran out of time.

3.1.1



6th Round: Dredge
1: Maindeck it is too difficult to win against dredge.
2: Never found a tutor or gravehate.

3.2.1



I still kept playing despite the fact that day 2 was not reachable anymore.


7th Round: Ad Nauseam Storm
1: Without knowing against what I play I kept a good looking hand but it wasn't that good against Storm.
2: CB lock into Batterskull
3: Same but with Jace

4.2.1



8th Round: Tempotresh
1: Bridge was enough to stop him entirely and Jace won.
2: A resourcesbattle but i managed to win with Clique because he boarded all his creatureremovalspells out.

5.2.1



9th Round: Ad Nauseam Storm
1: A hilarious game in which i won because of moat. He played Ad Nauseam and i had CB but only 1 mana to activate Top. On the top of my library was something for 0,1,2 and i decided to take the 0 Manacost spell because he drew 2 Empty the Warrens but no Tendrils and i wanted him to be not able to cast them because he had no redmanaproducing land at this time. But he drew one with Gitaxian Probe but the castable Moat in my hand said no to him.
2: Blood Moon took him again out of the game but he had a Confidant in play. Luckily I drew a EE and Jace won.

6.2.1




So I had 2 points too little to play day 2. :/

All in all I became around 260th of 1880 players.





Blood Moon and Bridge ruled all tournament long.
Stoneforge and Batterskull did too little.
I wish I had more gravehate in my SB.
And the deck needs more cards against Planeswalkers.

[sdematt]

Nice tournament report!

I definitely agree Moat is a house, and it seems like you did most of the stuff you wanted to do, and just got screwed by random matchups (Dredge can suck if you draw crap).

I'd suggest adding a land (even with all the basics, you're a control deck and need the right mana).

I'd cut SFM and Batterskull, and add Tutors. I know every single player in Europe is against me on this, since it's card disadvantage, but in this deck, you want to find your back-breaking lockpieces. The reason why Stax is even a decent deck (decent compared to being garbage) is because it has huge bombs that lock up the game. You want to be able to tutor for bombs that change the way the rest of the game plays out.

I'd also suggest another Spell Snare, since it's really good right now. How did you find this:

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spell Snare
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout


Personally, I'm not really a fan of Aura or Seal. Sure, it's tutorable, and it's cute, but is it good enough? Your hate for graveyard seems pretty mediocre, especially with Snapcaster being nuts. I'd actually suggest a Torpor Orb in the board. Why? Snapcaster, Goblin Ringleader (yes, it's a card), Reejerey, SFM, Siege Gang, etc. It's most useful against other Cliques as well. With Reanimator being good as well, I'd suggest:



1 Cursed Totem (again, for Qasali, Noble, Dryad Arbor, Welder, etc.)
1 Humility (if you're facing lots of creatures like Qasali, similar usage to Totem)
1 Other hate (if not running Humility, maybe run another Red Blast, might as well maximize your third colour)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (can also save you against Painter combo)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Torpor Orb
1 Blood Moon
1 Firespout

-Matt

[anomie-p]

You could run Serenity, as well. You also get to yell, "Serenity now!" when you bust it. I'm pretty sure that's worth it.

-Matt


I played it in the SCG Kansas City Legacy Open and ended up doing terribly (2-5-1). I think this has more to do with my being a terrible player than anything else (There were terrible hands kept, countertop trigger missed because I'm too used to mtgo doing it for me - although the one I missed didn't actually matter because when I drew it was the wrong cmc, etc). Deck was slightly different, I didn't run wasteland, ran two counterspells, one less snapcaster, and I think one less E. Tutor. Never got to bust the Serenity and yell "Serenity now!", but had a lot of fun playing in the lower brackets. Less dead-serious play (although people still played to win), more bs'ing and cracking jokes and designing of the SCG Legacy Open Drinking Game -> "Every time you crack a fetch ... Drink." Etc. ;) Ran Wheel of Sun and Moon in my SB instead of the relic and crypt (picked it up the thursday before I headed out to KC).

To be honest I'm somewhat happy that I even won a match for my first time at a larger tournament. I'll get better :)

[Dalapin]

Given my experience in Nashville and others as posted here, I feel like we can safely say the SFM plan in this deck is just not enough. SFM Batterskull just isn't powerful enough in our silver-bullet deck.

Thoughts?

[anwei]

Given my experience in Nashville and others as posted here, I feel like we can safely say the SFM plan in this deck is just not enough. SFM Batterskull just isn't powerful enough in our silver-bullet deck.

Thoughts?

Can you expand on this more? (Or others toss in testing results?)

This seems like one of the major decisions within this list, and non-obvious.
Running SFM normally gives a combo-piece tutor that doesn't create card disadvantage like ET and provides a non-trivial board presence for chump-blocking or addressing a Jace (for example) on an otherwise empty board.
Having the Batterskull option is gravy - a bonus in G1 against lists with limited removal or a better clock against (say) combo.

Removing 3sfm/1bs seems like it would require adding a 3rd thopter foundry and another (4th) e tutor, netting only 2 slots (and blanking all their creature removal) in return for a helpful package and extra win condition.

Thoughts?

[sdematt]

That's what i've done. You're not a full-on SFM deck, so if you're on that plan, and they have the removal/Stifle/Counterspell, you're pretty hosed. I'm on the 4 E Tutor 3rd Foundry Plan, and so far, so good.

I need to do more testing, but still.

-Matt

[Gollus]

Yeah i will cut them too but i am not sure about the 4 tutor 3 Foundry plan.
a 3rd Tutor will be good but i never felt to need so many more than 2.
There are just a few decks without blue in todays t8 and tutoring for something just to get it countered is so bad. Of course when you have 1 Foundry in hand you want the sword for it but when you don't have it you go for something nuts (Moat, or CB top). The Problem is that this bullets are also only good when you are able to protect them.
So i think 3 Tutor and more Protection is the way to go.


I like it when your opponent board out all his removal and you just beat him with Cliques.
Surgial Extraction is also such a good card against Combo/Gravedecks and control. All decks with little cards which actually can kill you. (thresh/Jacestill/Stoneforgedecks...)
And we need a solution against Planeswalker! Just 1 O-Ring isn't enough. And Needle is a problem with own jace. Any ideas? Only black spells as vindicate come to my mind.

[Dalapin]

I'd be happy to expand on that. I've tested both 4 and 2 SFM with Batterskull, and the consistent problem I have is that it just never feels like enough in this deck. My opponents "always" have the removal for SFM, I mean that you simply HAVE to assume that when selecting which of the equipments to fetch, and so unless my opponent is Merfolk I can never in good conscience fetch Bskull, even though Bskull would be an amazing board state improvement for me. In situations where you REALLY want that lifelink the reality is you can't afford to play it for 5 mana.

I would assert 3 or 4 SFM is too many because she simply isn't powerful in the same way as our other cards. Imagine for instance that we were playing different U/W deck that went something like this:
T2 SFM fetching Batterskull, which gets StP'd
T3 Clique
T4 Tiago -> Double StP
T5 Bskull
Every turn we are applying threat after threat. In that situation I think SFM does it's job a lot better because even when it's removed your opponent simply can't answer the following threats. In our deck however, if you play SFM into their removal early you can't follow it up with more board pressure; our opponents answer our 1-4 creatures with their 4-8 removal spells without batting an eyelash.

Even if you consider her a 1/2 blocker, that in and of itself is nowhere near the power level of the other cards we play, because even when she tutors you usually can't combo kill until you stabilize with our powerful answers, e.g., EE, O-ring, Bridge (Holy stone cold nuts Batman), Moat, P-needle (On planeswalkers). There are just more powerful things I'd like to do with my mana and cards.

However at Nashville when I fetched SotM with SFM I was definitely pleased at how consistent my combo was. Running 1 or 2 SFM as a better tutor for our kill combo may definitely be the way we want to go. Personally I prefer to convince my opponents to board out their removal, and to do so I run no creatures.

If you're interested I wrote a Tournament report for Nashville (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22337-First-Legacy-Event-SCG-Nashville-Report-U-W-Enlightened-Tutor-Control) where I used an Adam Barnello list from last April which included 3-4 SFM. I detailed what cards really rocked my world and which did not, and also how I realistically ended up playing SFM.



How do we feel about 1 SFM as a pseudo 2nd Sword of the Meek? I don't know that I'm yet convinced.

Secondary discussion: People complain about the CA problem with E-tutor and I've always thought it was a great synergy with Bridge. Maybe?

[The Colonel]

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread for awhile now but havn't posted because I wanted to get framiliar with playing the deck before I did. That being said here is what I have observed:

My deck has really gone through 3 phases to get to where it is today.

Phase 1- Combo (2 foundry), 3 Jace, 3 SFM 1 BS, along with the other normal stuff.

Phase 2-Cut Jace. EVERYTIME I drew him in opening hand I lost. +1 Counter balance +1 Top and +1 ensnaring bridge

Phase 2 results...

Never once missed GAYce. My Bridges were now up to 3 and i was consistanly drawing them, which saved my E tutors for other things, Was now finding Top and CB very consistantlty.

Phase 3- Never once had fetching BS with SFM ouright won me a game. It was just never enough. More often than not, I fetched Sword with it. I was still at 2 foundry so I needed E tutor more often than not to find it.

Phase 3 lessons-SFM into BS was never enough. However, SFM for SotM was great.

So I thought to myself: at 4 CB, 4 top, 3 bridge I never really needed to Etotor for them. That saves me 4 Etutors to look for the combo (which is better than SFM into BS) so what good is SFM in there now? Don't really need it. 4 Etutor for the combo is enough and if I up my foundry to 3 I really only need to devote one Etutor for the combo to find the sword and I have 3 left for silver bullets.

Current phase-Only win condition is now the combo, which I can RELIABLY get just by drawing. Brainstorm and top make it even easier. So now I can reliably get the combo up, get CB/Top online, and find a Ebridge (which I love) and I have 3 Etutors (4-1 to find sword) to help in finding a silver bullet fast.


Overall lessons from this thread and playing the deck:

People are trying to make the deck do to much. When you give the deck to many win cons it can't do anything brilliantly. We need focus... Get the lock peices up first and foremost (CB/top, Ebridge etc..,). Oh and by the way our win con is also a lock peice. From looking at past posts I think people are missing that. When we can put 4 blockers into play and gain 4 life every turn, that in and of its self is a lock peice. So our best lock peice can also be our win condition. You're Etutors can then be saved for that timely silver bullet.

GAYce is cute, but that's all there are better things we can do with 4 mana, SFM into BS just isn't enough when you don't have back up for it AND it makes your oponents removal spells relevant. When we focus on foundry/sword you just about make 4-8 of our opponents card slots useless.


Conclusion: FOCUS - get the lock, get the combo... that's all




I welcome any comments as I am still learning. This is one of those decks that can change from month to month. It's a ton of fun to play because you have so many options.

[Dalapin]

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread for awhile now but havn't posted because I wanted to get framiliar with playing the deck before I did. That being said here is what I have observed:

My deck has really gone through 3 phases to get to where it is today.

Phase 1- Combo (2 foundry), 3 Jace, 3 SFM 1 BS, along with the other normal stuff.

Phase 2-Cut Jace. EVERYTIME I drew him in opening hand I lost. +1 Counter balance +1 Top and +1 ensnaring bridge

Phase 2 results...

Never once missed GAYce. My Bridges were now up to 3 and i was consistanly drawing them, which saved my E tutors for other things, Was now finding Top and CB very consistantlty.

Phase 3- Never once had fetching BS with SFM ouright won me a game. It was just never enough. More often than not, I fetched Sword with it. I was still at 2 foundry so I needed E tutor more often than not to find it.

Phase 3 lessons-SFM into BS was never enough. However, SFM for SotM was great.

So I thought to myself: at 4 CB, 4 top, 3 bridge I never really needed to Etotor for them. That saves me 4 Etutors to look for the combo (which is better than SFM into BS) so what good is SFM in there now? Don't really need it. 4 Etutor for the combo is enough and if I up my foundry to 3 I really only need to devote one Etutor for the combo to find the sword and I have 3 left for silver bullets.

Current phase-Only win condition is now the combo, which I can RELIABLY get just by drawing. Brainstorm and top make it even easier. So now I can reliably get the combo up, get CB/Top online, and find a Ebridge (which I love) and I have 3 Etutors (4-1 to find sword) to help in finding a silver bullet fast.


Overall lessons from this thread and playing the deck:

People are trying to make the deck do to much. When you give the deck to many win cons it can't do anything brilliantly. We need focus... Get the lock peices up first and foremost (CB/top, Ebridge etc..,). Oh and by the way our win con is also a lock peice. From looking at past posts I think people are missing that. When we can put 4 blockers into play and gain 4 life every turn, that in and of its self is a lock peice. So our best lock peice can also be our win condition. You're Etutors can then be saved for that timely silver bullet.

GAYce is cute, but that's all there are better things we can do with 4 mana, SFM into BS just isn't enough when you don't have back up for it AND it makes your oponents removal spells relevant. When we focus on foundry/sword you just about make 4-8 of our opponents card slots useless.


Conclusion: FOCUS - get the lock, get the combo... that's all




I welcome any comments as I am still learning. This is one of those decks that can change from month to month. It's a ton of fun to play because you have so many options.

While I completely agree on SFM I am very nervous to cut Jace. I win probably half of my games off of Jace alone. Having only the 1 win con also makes us incredibly susceptible to extirpate effects, especially so because the combo is constantly in the graveyard.

[The Colonel]

Okay, here's the thing... I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't a little nervous about extirpate... but thats kind of it. And with Surgical Extraction now out people run fewer and fewer Extirpates... Surgical extraction can be countered. We run so many 1cc cards we can also get a consistant 1 flip off a blind CB trigger as well. I've never even seen Exterpate or Surgical Extraction played against me. I see from your list you run 3 Jace. The problem is, you are relying on nothing but luck to have him in your hand... sure you can use top and brainstorm to help in the serch but at the end up the day all you are relying on is luck to get him. Meanwhile your 3 Jace slots could be somthing that help protect thopter/sword combo or get the combo into play. I'm not big on relying on luck. And when you win with Jace you win because you got lucky and drew him.

7 out of 57 chance opening draw
1-3 out of 30-53 to top deck him

I don't like those odds... especially when it seems that this decks major problem is its self. The deck must be streamlined and must be consistant. I'll be playing this weekend on a 70+ tourny. I'll let you know how it goes with thopter/sword as my only win con.

[sdematt]

@ Addressing how to kill an opposing Jace

You're playing Red, mainly so you can play Blood Moon, but you also get access to REB. 3 REB's from the board, including all your other crap, should be enough to stop the 1-2 Jace you may see on the other side of the table. Plus, you have Top to manipulate what gets Fatesealed. With MM format, you never really reliably had Top.

Also, you know what kills Jace pretty well? 1/1 Flying Thopters.

@ SFM vs. non SFM

SFM has its own merits in the sense that you can play the Stoneblade plan, but you're not a Stoneblade deck is the main problem, and this isn't a month ago. Everyone has removal for this bastard. I mean, if you get it, then great, but most of the time, with this deck, you won't have time to set up the backup before you get killed.

SFM tutoring for SotM has been VERY sexy, but again, I have E. Tutor.

@ Jace or no Jace

This is pretty debatable. I played the deck before Jace came out, and after. I've liked having 2-3 Jace just to either Filter, or have something to do while I don't draw the combo while under a Bridge or Moat lock. Bridge and Moat are key bombs in this deck, but they don't do anything by themselves.

No Jace means you don't get to bounce creatures, fateseal, and Brainstorm, which is fine, but are the cards you're replacing it with giving you enough value? I'd say at 4 mana, even if you were to replace it with some other awesome card, you're a) cutting your Blue count, and b) probably playing a card that isn't as good as Jace, even in the meta as we speak.

@ 4 E Tutor vs. 2 E. Tutor

Every single European has told me the same thing. Card Disadvantage this and that. Sure, it sucks to have your backbreaking play countered. But, in place of your 2 E. Tutors you could be playing 2 pieces of removal or something. My question is, are those two counters/removal going to get you there? If you're got a bunch of creatures coming against you, with that extra Spell Snare win you the game? But, will getting the EOT Thopter Foundry to pump out 7 tokens? Will the Moat? Will the Humility? If they counter it, then you're hooped unless you've got the sauce against them. But, I'd rather improve my chances of getting the card I need to seal the game.

Counters don't improve the game state if you're at parity or if you're behind. Once your board is disfavourable, countering something irrelevant isn't going to get you there, but perhaps an E. Tutor might. I mean, why did Reanimator play Mystical? Sure, it was card DA, but you got what you needed; you added consistency. Sure, you have to sacrifice actual value for consistency, but isn't that what you're after?

----

I think what we really have to look at is as follows:

a) What makes us better than a deck not playing Enlightened Tutor? Say, Stoneblade/Landstill.

Good guess, it's E. Tutor! That's the defining factor that makes us different (not necessarily better or worse) than those other decks, so you might as well exploit it.

b) How are we trying to win the game?

c) How are we beating other people to win the game?

d) What are the holes in our plan that cause us to lose? Why are we losing?

e) Are the matchups we're poor against acceptable losses for your metagame?

That's how you have to look at it, I think. If you're okay losing to Painter Combo, but winning the Thresh matchup, then awesome.

So, we're trying to grind advantage by playing awesome, hard to answer lockpieces combined with huge value created by Thopter Combo. To win the game, we attempt to grind the game out using removal and lockpieces until we can either attack with a lethal amount of Thopters, or Jace the opponent out.

How do we lose? We get rushed and can't set up, they break through our counter web and combo out/drop too many threats, or they remove our main combo.

How do we combat losing? By having a sideboard that hopefully takes care of annoying creature rushes, or protects our combo, or hates out their deck more.

The real question is, how to do all of this, or to do most of it in the most efficient manner possible.

-Matt

[anwei]

However at Nashville when I fetched SotM with SFM I was definitely pleased at how consistent my combo was. Running 1 or 2 SFM as a better tutor for our kill combo may definitely be the way we want to go. Personally I prefer to convince my opponents to board out their removal, and to do so I run no creatures.

If you're interested I wrote a Tournament report for Nashville (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22337-First-Legacy-Event-SCG-Nashville-Report-U-W-Enlightened-Tutor-Control) where I used an Adam Barnello list from last April which included 3-4 SFM. I detailed what cards really rocked my world and which did not, and also how I realistically ended up playing SFM.

How do we feel about 1 SFM as a pseudo 2nd Sword of the Meek? I don't know that I'm yet convinced.

Secondary discussion: People complain about the CA problem with E-tutor and I've always thought it was a great synergy with Bridge. Maybe?

I've seen a couple 1/2-of lists which (apparently) just use SFM as the tutor, with/without batterskull available. That doesn't seem worth the slot. I'd be curious to know (a) how frequently boarding an SFM package in for game 2 (likely against no removal) is worth the slots and (b) whether running her out as a tutor in game 1 has been enough to have the opponent ever leave removal in, blanking 4-8 cards for game 2.

I think I read your report before and skimmed it now, and saw a number of time concerns. How quickly do your non-SFM decks usually find and set up the combo? How often do you have time issues when on the clock?

I'm convinced enough to try without..

Top and Tutor both definitely work well with E Bridge - it seems so unlike Magic to end 8 consecutive terms with no cards in hand but total board control and an intricate plan for your next few moves...




7 out of 57 chance opening draw
1-3 out of 30-53 to top deck him

I don't like those odds... especially when it seems that this decks major problem is its self. The deck must be streamlined and must be consistant. I'll be playing this weekend on a 70+ tourny. I'll let you know how it goes with thopter/sword as my only win con.

The math is wrong and the conclusion is almost certainly wrong. If you run 4/3/2 Jaces, you have 40/32/22% odds of seeing him in your opening hand, 53/46/34% seeing him by turn 4. With gobs of shuffle effects, top, and brainstorm, this is rarely ever a problem. (A "dig 3" increases those odds another 10% or so each time.)
Obviously, you're as likely to see 1 of 3 Jaces as 1 of 3 ET's. You have better odds to get 1 Jace than 1 Sword/ET and 1 Foundry/ET with the regular numbers.

Streamline-wise, he does board control, card advantage, alternative win condition, protects/enforces your lock with fatesealing, and answers opposing Jaces (which is not a small thing when, as stated, O Ring is often the only md removal out and he can beat you while you're trying to tutor up the combo).



@ 4 E Tutor vs. 2 E. Tutor

Every single European has told me the same thing. Card Disadvantage this and that. Sure, it sucks to have your backbreaking play countered. But, in place of your 2 E. Tutors you could be playing 2 pieces of removal or something. My question is, are those two counters/removal going to get you there? If you're got a bunch of creatures coming against you, with that extra Spell Snare win you the game? But, will getting the EOT Thopter Foundry to pump out 7 tokens? Will the Moat? Will the Humility? If they counter it, then you're hooped unless you've got the sauce against them. But, I'd rather improve my chances of getting the card I need to seal the game.

Counters don't improve the game state if you're at parity or if you're behind. Once your board is disfavourable, countering something irrelevant isn't going to get you there, but perhaps an E. Tutor might. I mean, why did Reanimator play Mystical? Sure, it was card DA, but you got what you needed; you added consistency. Sure, you have to sacrifice actual value for consistency, but isn't that what you're after?


Right now I'm running 3 with the 4th in the board, and I'll probably stick with that. On match-ups (Dredge, ANT) where the best play is "find my answer, now," having 4 ETs + a Wheel of Sun/Moon or Canonist or whatever is crucial. Having the full set available post-board seems crucial for any number in the md..
The fact that ET top-decks the card is also perfect at those times - I used to play Spiral Tide, and having to play around discard with my Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish was awful. If I didn't have the brainstorm to hide my answer or the mana to drop it immediately, I'd lose it to Duress/Cabal Therapy without fail.

[anomie-p]

Plus, you have Top to manipulate what gets Fatesealed. With MM format, you never really reliably had Top.

Also, you know what kills Jace pretty well? 1/1 Flying Thopters.

A lot of people seem to fateseal me with jace when I have a top on board - and it seems so terrible for them to be doing that.

- They bump jace up two counters, but they're basically just making you spend two mana instead of one to put the card you want on top.
- Sometimes you can put a threatening looking card on top that you really want them to ship, and see an extra card. (I played a game where my opponent was fatesealing me with Jace, I had a Thopter Foundry in hand already, so I put a thopter foundry on top - he shipped it, I ended up keeping him off Jace ultimate with tokens and then winning).

It seems so much better to either a) brainstorm or b) fateseal yourself (depending on what you need - a card, filtering, or counters going up) if your opponent has a top vs. your Jace. Right/wrong?

(Still want Jace in the deck, for the same reasons you noted)

[sdematt]

I think if you have Jace and they have Top, but you have no Top, you Fateseal yourself. If you also have Top, you still Fateseal them. You're hoping at some point they flip Top by mistake, then you Fateseal it away. Plus, you're building counters. Or, the Fateseal yourself plan is still an option, just to dig deeper.

-Matt

[anomie-p]

Yeah, I can see myself fatesealing them with a top on board if I know I want my top cards to stay (from my top). I think I'd stack the top three in their end step so that I card I want to ship is second if there's a card I want to get rid of.

My opponent in the above example wasn't even playing top, it just seemed to me like he would have gotten so much better value out of fatesealing himself if he was on a jace-to-win plan.

[Dalapin]

I've seen a couple 1/2-of lists which (apparently) just use SFM as the tutor, with/without batterskull available. That doesn't seem worth the slot. I'd be curious to know (a) how frequently boarding an SFM package in for game 2 (likely against no removal) is worth the slots and (b) whether running her out as a tutor in game 1 has been enough to have the opponent ever leave removal in, blanking 4-8 cards for game 2.

I think I read your report before and skimmed it now, and saw a number of time concerns. How quickly do your non-SFM decks usually find and set up the combo? How often do you have time issues when on the clock?

I'm convinced enough to try without...

I agree I don't think the slot is necessarily worth it, but having that tutor did allow me to set up the combo earlier than I normally do with the SFM package.

When it comes to time, without 4 SFM to help make the thopter combo happen a bit earlier, the deck is a bit slower. Though I firmly agree with the many posts that have already been made in this thread with regards to time: knowing your match-ups very very well and being familiar with all of Countertop Thopters' many board states is the best way to address time problems; you can't afford to consider all your million tutor-able options in an unfamiliar match-up.

After they board out their removal I'm currently boarding in Clique as my faster win-con for game 2 (perhaps 3) though I've never tried boarding in an entire SFM/Batterskull package. At first glance it seems like a lot of slots.

Has anyone tried boarding-IN SFM package for game 2?

[sdematt]

That strategy was used, iirc, with the list from Ovinosex in Italy, where it placed 3rd/100+ people.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread for awhile now but havn't posted because I wanted to get framiliar with playing the deck before I did. That being said here is what I have observed:

My deck has really gone through 3 phases to get to where it is today.

Phase 1- Combo (2 foundry), 3 Jace, 3 SFM 1 BS, along with the other normal stuff.

Phase 2-Cut Jace. EVERYTIME I drew him in opening hand I lost. +1 Counter balance +1 Top and +1 ensnaring bridge

Phase 2 results...

Never once missed GAYce. My Bridges were now up to 3 and i was consistanly drawing them, which saved my E tutors for other things, Was now finding Top and CB very consistantlty.

Phase 3- Never once had fetching BS with SFM ouright won me a game. It was just never enough. More often than not, I fetched Sword with it. I was still at 2 foundry so I needed E tutor more often than not to find it.

Phase 3 lessons-SFM into BS was never enough. However, SFM for SotM was great.

So I thought to myself: at 4 CB, 4 top, 3 bridge I never really needed to Etotor for them. That saves me 4 Etutors to look for the combo (which is better than SFM into BS) so what good is SFM in there now? Don't really need it. 4 Etutor for the combo is enough and if I up my foundry to 3 I really only need to devote one Etutor for the combo to find the sword and I have 3 left for silver bullets.

Current phase-Only win condition is now the combo, which I can RELIABLY get just by drawing. Brainstorm and top make it even easier. So now I can reliably get the combo up, get CB/Top online, and find a Ebridge (which I love) and I have 3 Etutors (4-1 to find sword) to help in finding a silver bullet fast.


Overall lessons from this thread and playing the deck:

People are trying to make the deck do to much. When you give the deck to many win cons it can't do anything brilliantly. We need focus... Get the lock peices up first and foremost (CB/top, Ebridge etc..,). Oh and by the way our win con is also a lock peice. From looking at past posts I think people are missing that. When we can put 4 blockers into play and gain 4 life every turn, that in and of its self is a lock peice. So our best lock peice can also be our win condition. You're Etutors can then be saved for that timely silver bullet.

GAYce is cute, but that's all there are better things we can do with 4 mana, SFM into BS just isn't enough when you don't have back up for it AND it makes your oponents removal spells relevant. When we focus on foundry/sword you just about make 4-8 of our opponents card slots useless.


Conclusion: FOCUS - get the lock, get the combo... that's all




I welcome any comments as I am still learning. This is one of those decks that can change from month to month. It's a ton of fun to play because you have so many options.

No Jace? No SFM-> BS?


Surgical Extraction
Extirpate


You need other win cons with this deck. Jace should stay in. Maybe not as a 4 or 3 of, but a well placed above card ruins this deck too easily.

[Teknique]

Long time reader, first time poster here. A couple things:

@Gollus, great Amsterdam writeup, however, you mention EE in multiple matches, and there's no EE in your list? Mind clarifying what's different in the list because I think it's one of the strongest I've seen.

Is daze a viable option as a 2 or 3-of? It allows us to run CB out turn 2 with daze/fow backup, and turn 3 drop land again and depending on your turn 1 (did you play top or leave up brainstorm), drop top and have land up, or just have 2 land up for top/counterspell/etc...

In testing with this deck, I have found 4 tutors unnecessary, 2-3 is almost certainly all we need.

SFM package is meh. It just takes up spots and dies. However a 1 or 2-of SFM for SotM I have liked a bit, but I think I still prefer devoting those spots to protection.
As for running her in the board, it's just too many resources gone. Again, I'd prefer to fill the board with protection/more bullets.

Also, dropping Jace is wrong, He's too damn good. Recently I've only been running 2 because of space issues, but I really wish I could push a third in.

[Dalapin]

Is daze a viable option as a 2 or 3-of? It allows us to run CB out turn 2 with daze/fow backup, and turn 3 drop land again and depending on your turn 1 (did you play top or leave up brainstorm), drop top and have land up, or just have 2 land up for top/counterspell/etc...


In my testing the problem with Daze is it's the opposite of what we want to do, we want to drop a land every turn and play Ensnaring Bridge and Moat. Delaying our CMC 3 and 4 lock pieces is scary to me.

Also Daze is a one trick pony, after your opponents know what's up they just play around it, or play through them if they're aggro and prefer we have less lands on the field.

[Teknique]

In my testing the problem with Daze is it's the opposite of what we want to do, we want to drop a land every turn and play Ensnaring Bridge and Moat. Delaying our CMC 3 and 4 lock pieces is scary to me.

Also Daze is a one trick pony, after your opponents know what's up they just play around it, or play through them if they're aggro and prefer we have less lands on the field.

Isn't this a good thing, effectively delaying the opponent's key plays by a turn? And in the late game of g1, it's BS and Force fodder. Also, this allows us to side some number to all the dazes out for real cards while the opponent still plays around it for at least part of a game. And recently so many decks have taken favor to daze again, we can't just rush a bridge/moat out turn 3/4 without anticipating an opposing daze. In either case, daze on our side helps push anything we need through asap.

I do agree that delaying our plays is scary, but I still feel it's something that warrants more widespread testing in this new meta.

[Dalapin]

Isn't this a good thing, effectively delaying the opponent's key plays by a turn? And in the late game of g1, it's BS and Force fodder. Also, this allows us to side some number to all the dazes out for real cards while the opponent still plays around it for at least part of a game. And recently so many decks have taken favor to daze again, we can't just rush a bridge/moat out turn 3/4 without anticipating an opposing daze. In either case, daze on our side helps push anything we need through asap.

I do agree that delaying our plays is scary, but I still feel it's something that warrants more widespread testing in this new meta.

I could see it working in a Daze vs. Daze meta, but I'm skeptical at the moment. Try it out and let us all know!

[Gollus]

@Teknique: You are right. I played EE instead of Seal of Cleansing in the SB.

My Deck is very similar to all the others here posted, but the main difference i think is Blood Moon. It won me a lot of games alone or lead the way to victory. Sometimes I can not play white spells without an plains out under Moon but with top and enough islands i find my plains fast enough because i have infinity time as my opponent can't play anything!

Daze has to be tested but i think it won't fit that good. Other Controldecks just counter with FoW or Spellsnare and have 1 mana left to pay for Daze. And against Aggro it's fine but as said, there you want the lands to cast Bridge/Moat.

[Dalapin]

@Teknique: You are right. I played EE instead of Seal of Cleansing in the SB.

My Deck is very similar to all the others here posted, but the main difference i think is Blood Moon. It won me a lot of games alone or lead the way to victory. Sometimes I can not play white spells without an plains out under Moon but with top and enough islands i find my plains fast enough because i have infinity time as my opponent can't play anything!

Daze has to be tested but i think it won't fit that good. Other Controldecks just counter with FoW or Spellsnare and have 1 mana left to pay for Daze. And against Aggro it's fine but as said, there you want the lands to cast Bridge/Moat.

I think you have an excellent point, Daze does not give us anything in the long-game when we play against non-aggro. Against combo it can be very sketchy, and against control it's abysmal unless they run head-long into it.

[obituary 95]

I think you have an excellent point, Daze does not give us anything in the long-game when we play against non-aggro. Against combo it can be very sketchy, and against control it's abysmal unless they run head-long into it.

just play spell pierce. it is much better than daze.

[sdematt]

I used to run 2 Pierces in the main back in the day (pre-Stoneblade, pre Misstep, post Survival) and it was pretty decent, since you were always running up against decks with usually a bit more counter power.

-Matt

[heronimus]

Hi guys,

I played at a 32-player tournament yesterday in the Netherlands. It was 6 rounds. I won against ANT, Elfcombo and some 6 year old control deck. I lost two rounds against Esper Blade. And I had to play against my teammate who also played CounterTop Thopters. We decided that i won, we didn't play.

The matchup against Esper Blade is really difficult. I had a Torpor Orb in my sideboard wich was nice. I also played Vendilion Cliques, but wished they were Elspeths. I don't like Vendilion Clique (against Esper). Peacekeeper and Ensnaring Bridge are better.

What do you guys side against Esper Blade?

[Dalapin]

Hi guys,

I played at a 32-player tournament yesterday in the Netherlands. It was 6 rounds. I won against ANT, Elfcombo and some 6 year old control deck. I lost two rounds against Esper Blade. And I had to play against my teammate who also played CounterTop Thopters. We decided that i won, we didn't play.

The matchup against Esper Blade is really difficult. I had a Torpor Orb in my sideboard wich was nice. I also played Vendilion Cliques, but wished they were Elspeths. I don't like Vendilion Clique (against Esper). Peacekeeper and Ensnaring Bridge are better.

What do you guys side against Esper Blade?

Post dat decklist!

I would use my Pithing Needles for sure. Maybe combine humility with Elspeth for the lock? E-bridge still gets there but turn 3 Batterskull seems really frustrating.... I'm also a fan of shackles (perhaps incorrectly).

[heronimus]

This is the list I played yesterday:

CVC 0 (23):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains

1 Engineered Explosives

CVC 1 (18):
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

CVC 2 (9):
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

CVC 3 (3):
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Back to Basics

CVC 4 (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat

CVC 5 (4):
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Torpor Orb
1 Seal of Cleansing

[puppektion]

This is the list I played yesterday:

CVC 0 (23):
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains

1 Engineered Explosives

CVC 1 (18):
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

CVC 2 (9):
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

CVC 3 (3):
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Back to Basics

CVC 4 (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat

CVC 5 (4):
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Torpor Orb
1 Seal of Cleansing

A couple questions:

Why no Tolaria West? A way to tutor up Ruins is pretty solid, especially since Ruins + EE wrecks so many decks.

Did you find that two Bridges were really necessary?

Spell Snare vs. Spell Pierce - What made you opt for Pierce?

[heronimus]

A couple questions:

Why no Tolaria West? A way to tutor up Ruins is pretty solid, especially since Ruins + EE wrecks so many decks.

Did you find that two Bridges were really necessary?

Spell Snare vs. Spell Pierce - What made you opt for Pierce?

I'll test Tolaria West. Isn't too slow?

Ensnaring Bridge is really good. I always want to have a chance to cast it. I rather play three than one. I find it easy to control my handsize.

Spell Pierce. Well IMO the only cards we really need to counter are noncreatures. Hymn, GSZ, Vindicate, FoW, Daze, etc. The only creature wich wrecks is is Qasali Pridemage. And a lot of decks search for it with Green Sun's Zenith. Combined with Back to Basics, Spell Pierce is better in 95% of the time IMO. But maybe others think different about this...

[sdematt]

Tolaria West is slow as hell. It's good in 43 lands since you're getting huge mana advantage from Manabond and exploration with Mox, but here, you're not. I just think upping your E. Tutors to 3 would be better.

Now, I'm just trying to decide which lockpieces to have main.

So far, I think 2 Bridge, Moat/Humility, and Blood Moon should be in there. My question is, with all the Delvers flying around, is Moat as good? I'm thinking Humility is a bit better right now, since shutting off Qasali is also really good. I wouldn't mind a Moat in the board against basically anything, but my point still stands.

I'm thinking:

4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
23

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
38

If you wanted to be super greasy, I'd suggest just plowing in a Moat :P

Board:

2 Pyroclasm (actually hits Flying stuffs, unlike stupid Firespout :P)
3 REB
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon (I'm thinking Back to Basics may be a no-no: I'd rather have manascrew against them then have them save their coloured mana to kill my stuff. Also, I can function under a Blood Moon better (can use Red mana to power Thopters) than I can a Back to Basics).
1 Torpor Orb (it's my 16th card, I'll either shove one in the main, or I'll cut something for it in the board).

-Matt

[anwei]

(I'm thinking Back to Basics may be a no-no: I'd rather have manascrew against them then have them save their coloured mana to kill my stuff. Also, I can function under a Blood Moon better (can use Red mana to power Thopters) than I can a Back to Basics).

I'm curious what results others have had testing Blood Moon vs. Back to Basics, maindeck vs. sb, and how you fetch (basics?, when?, and how many?) with it in the deck.

If you're main-decking blood moon, do you fetch into it on turns 1-3 and try to drop it asap? If you fetch basic island, basic plains, and a red source on turns 1-3, you're left to play with 4 u/w basics (in sdematt's list) and a ton of Mountains in your deck. They end up dropping several basics and this could go quite poorly, and you'll probably not get to UU for a while and WW never.
If you don't try to run it out asap, is worth much by turn 5-8+?
If you start running out basics and they have enough that it puts you even (or down), has sub-optimal land fixing screwed you over?

This to say: If you don't know that Blood Moon will wreck them, does it still help if you're not preparing for it? And since you may not know for a turn or two, especially on the play, doesn't it hurt if you don't know and try to prepare?

[sdematt]

In this deck, I fetch for basics. Usually U, then W, then U, then W, if possible. If not, Tundras work well. This deck likes its mana development more than most decks, so you don't want a Wasteland fucking you over. If possible, fetch all the basics out of your deck (Mountain isn't as important in the main, moreso for the boarded REB).

As for slamming a Blood Moon, you need at least a basic Island and Plains down before you slam it. At least. Remember, Blood Moon needn't be dropped turn 3, even on Turn 4-6 it can be devastating. Bloon Moon wrecks any deck that isn't actively fetching basics from turn 1 and onwards. Even if you get a bit fucked over, they'll be more hosed than you, since most decks run approx. 0-4 basics. It's worse with Noble on the other side of the board, but Cursed Totem from the board shuts down their mana development like that.

-Matt

[Gollus]

The most decks play just a few basics so even a Blood Moon later in the game says"You will not play anything from now". And when they start fetching basics in the next game, it is because they are afraid of 1 card in your deck (or maybe two with sb) and they weaken their available mana a lot.

You don't necessary need a white mana with Moon. 1 blue is enough for a lot of turns. A top/Brainstorm/Island will show up. At this time you have 2 Islands and can play your deck with all it's strongness. White is just needed for winning. But jace wins as well and you have enough time to find your plains.

But of course i fetch for basics if the colourrequirement isn't that high because of wasteland. But tutoring for Moon isn't that important. Battle your opponent till he is out of resources, or when you have enough countermagic, and then lay Moon.

[3duece]

I haven't posted here in quite a long time.I've been running a version with one maindeck blood moon. If I'm going to run it, I like to cut back on as many nonbasics as possible. Since this deck would usually have basics than tundras, I cut one for a single volcanic island that can be fetched the turn you need it.

4 top
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
4 enlightened tutor
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
2 jace, the mindsculptor
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 blood moon
1 ensnaring bridge
1 humility
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
3 tundra
1 volcanic island
7 island
3 plains

Edit/ also, I'm pretty sure humility in the main and moat in the board is the way to go right now. Delver, tombstalker, clique, knight, pridemage, mother, confidant, stoneforge, the list goes on. You can side in moat against tribal/swarm style decks. My current sideboard is:
1 mountain
2 firespout
3 reb
1 moat
2 cannonist
2 path to exile
3 tormod's crypt
1 relic of projenitus

[oRen]

Cursed Totem seems super sucky to me. I would rather play wrath and destroy everything than play a proactive card which does not that much standalone.

I do not get why you play more than 1 basic Plains. This deck eats so much blue ... and after you resolve Blood Moon you should not need any WW card anymore. The Mountain was also super bad for me most of the time.

A few things will be needed to consider while testing further. I am unsure about Tarn number 4 vs Volcanic number 2. Maybe Seat of the Synod or Tolaria West will find their way in my 75. You never want to make -1 handcard for searching Seat with E.Tutor and you never want to play Tolaria tapped so this needs kind of a lot of testing to see if they deserve a spot.
Also I would like to utilize the Tropical a bit more.

Here is what I am tooling around with. Random but fun :tongue:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Island (1)
1 [R] Plains (1)
3 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Plateau
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [R] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [DDF] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [TE] Humility
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 [LG] Moat

@Matt ... The only card I am obviously leaking is a Moat ...

[sdematt]

@ Oren

Needs 3x more Moat :P

If you really, really need one, I've still got my playset, so if you ask really nicely, I might give you one.

-Matt

[oRen]

I am looking for a signed and altered Italian copy. Can you provide that?

At least I am intending to run 1 Moat/Humility/Elspeth ... kind of a memorial :P

[sdematt]

I don't have any Italian ones, unfortunately.

-Matt

[Shimi]

Hi folks, I was brainstorming this year and find out that Uw and Canadian can't beat a Thopter Foundry combo MD, so I decided to give it a try. Played with the following list against Uw and made 2-1(only pre-sb matchs, lose to a T2 Stoneforge and did not find the thoptercombo or StP in time with top) and in one game my Thopter Combo + 0 cards in hand won against his Jace, Batterskull , SoFF , Jitte , 2x Stone , Clique , Snap and Ripitide on table, making me believe that Uw can't handdle Thopter Combo MD.

My list was:
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
4 STP
3 Jace
4 Stoneforge
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 SoBM
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 E. Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Plains
5 Islands
7 Fetchs
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Esnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Tormod's
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Canonist
3 ReB
1 O.Ring
1 Shackles
1 Needle
1 Blood Moon

Note that:
i) I give up to counter 3cc cards at CB with Maindeck list, my plan is to removal/fow a KotR or GSZ and really lock the 1cc/2cc which shutdown all canadian and Uw good cards(except Jace/Clique, but we have ours jaces and thopters).

ii)I added SFM, it is a 2nd win con , tutor up Sword of the Meek and helps against this many Surgicals all around, wins against aggro and random things, also I can play like Uw Blade in T1-T3 and then slam the CB or Thopter combo.They SoBM is a pro green sword that helps to win fast some hard countrol matchs(milling), also it reads protecion from Canadian(except Dismemeber),the wolf also helps to get a blocker so you can attack throught a KotR with your SFM and win the race.

iii)My list has only 1 E. Tutor because I always found that the card disadvantage and too many "conditional draws" were the weak point of this deck so I added up 2 Snapcasters(It is like more StP/BS/Snare and can reuse a lategame E. Tutor, also works very good with SB cards).

So I posted my list here because I would like to add the 3rd Spell Snare and the 2nd Tutor in my MD list but I really don't know what to cut or if it is really needed.Also I would like to add a basic Mountain but don't know if I should cut Volcanic or Tundra for it.


Thx in advance!

[sdematt]

Interesting. It's a bit of a different take; it's all in on the SFM plan, but that's not a bad thing.

The main reason why I'm building this is because a Jace deck can't beat Thopter Foundry. They just can't. You're right as well: Canadian, if you can get it, can't either. It deals with their burn, you block all their guys, etc. I'm just a tad concerned about successfully landing a SFM and having it survive with all the Bolt/Dismember/Stifle that deck has. But, if you get it together, you're in the money. Your board includes all the things I'd usually want in the main, so I approve.

This is what I've got going on thusfar:

5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain (could be another Volc, but I really want a solid red source post-board to run Blasts off of)
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon (really good against Canadian)

BOARD:
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pitihing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (playing this on yourself vs. Leyline can sometimes be ok :smile:
1 Moat
3 REB
2 Spell Pierce
1 Seal of Cleansing

Thoughts on this?

-Matt

[4eak]

Like sdematt, I don't like the SFM route, not just because it is very hard to secure, but also because it conflicts with Humility, which is the real reason to play this deck. Here is a list a friend and I are developing (for him to use):

// Lands - 23
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

// Card Selection - 12
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor

// Board Control - 7
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Stack Control - 9
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

// Control Win-Cons - 9
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Dispeller's Capsule
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 4 Spell Pierce

I love Factory with Humility. Factory, unfortunately, makes color smoothing difficult, which may not be acceptable in a Canadian dominant metagame. Thoughts?

I'm really questioning whether or not we should splash red. I don't know if Firespout is necessary. REB doesn't look necessary. Blood Moon and 4cc on EE is where I'm sorely tempted to add red.


peace,
4eak

[sdematt]

Well, Red give you some huge advantages, especially in a largely aggro metagame.

a) Pyroclasm gives you the most bang for your buck, since Firespout won't hit Delver. With Humility in play, it's a Wrath

2) Factory right now seems like a liability. Their Bolt gets to be a Wasteland? Awkward. I noticed this when playing Dryad Arbor, it always got bolted. So sad. It does play super well under Humility, though.

3) Elspeth under Moat is excellent, especially with Humility. I remember doing that with Dutch Stax :)

4) Red gives you REB, which is great, and EE on 4 against Elspeth, Jace, or even your own Humility if you need to attack for lethal in the air or something.

5) REB is huge against other Jace decks, mucking Grim Lavamancer's poking your Jace/face, mucking a Chain of Vapour for Cannonist, Turnabout, High Tide, etc. It's even better in Painter, since they'll probably name Blue anyway. Now you've got more outs again!

-Matt

[4eak]

Firespout does hit Delver with Tropical Island.
I think the important part of playing with Factory is making sure you don't activate it if you can't afford to lose it. Many people aren't conservative enough with their factories. That said, creature removal is a serious worry. What about just cutting down to 2?
Moat is excellent, unfortunately, we don't have access to one. If I did have one, I wouldn't put it main (as has been pointed out before). The 2nd Humility is arguably better, as I want Humility before Moat, and that is especially true in the face of permission and enchantment destruction.
I am increasingly convinced to go red just for the sake of EE, which I rely upon too often. If I don't go red, I may use O-stone. Oblivion Stone has pretty good, and it does provide a sweeper for all CC's.
REB against opposing Jace is a good reason, but maybe not good enough (the rest of the examples aren't significant to me). In some ways, I'd rather just get Thopter online to handle Jace though. I'm still not sold on the card.


peace,
4eak

[sdematt]

I also forgot, Blood Moon is the tits against everything in the format. Whoops.

-Matt

[anwei]

2 Q's:
1. Do you guys have trouble playing EE around your own permanents? With key stuff that you want in play at CC 1-4, I'm always inclined to SB these because if *anything* is going right, it's an awkward card to play against anything but zombie tokens.

2. Against G/X/x or any other creature-heavy aggro or midrange decks (inc. Thresh), do you play earlier towards board lock (E Bridge, Moat, Humility) or Thopter combo? Obviously this depends some on the matchup, position, and draws, but in general?

[sdematt]

Well, remember that GSZ has access to Pridemage. This is huge. You'll want Humility as soon as possible on this one, then you'll want Bridge/Moat/Thopter Combo. Plus, since they don't have Daze, you can run it out turn 4 without worry.

-Matt

[anwei]

So if you land Humility (or against Canadian, etc. without Pridemage), do you look for a Moat/Bridge lock or Thopters first?

[sdematt]

Depends what you have available. If you have tons of cards in hand, Bridge is bad, Moat is good. If you have a piece of the Thopter Foundry combo but not the other, I'd say go combo. If they have very few creatures, if any, then do what you want :)

Essentially, if they've got tons of possible damage onboard, then you need to stop that ala Firespout, Moat, Bridge is you're low on cards, etc. If they have a few, then you could have enough time to go for Thopters.

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

Depends what you have available. If you have tons of cards in hand, Bridge is bad, Moat is good. If you have a piece of the Thopter Foundry combo but not the other, I'd say go combo. If they have very few creatures, if any, then do what you want :)

Essentially, if they've got tons of possible damage onboard, then you need to stop that ala Firespout, Moat, Bridge is you're low on cards, etc. If they have a few, then you could have enough time to go for Thopters.

-Matt

This saturday I have an important legacy tournament, and due to the late surge in stoneblade and the usual large amounts of aggro, I've decided to play this deck, more specifically your list -1 Spell Snare, +1 Engineered Explosives.

Some thoughts:

Why no EE maindeck? I can't help it but feel naked and exposed if I can't blow up anything sans Jace that lands on the table.
Everytime I play 61 cards, I loose horribly. It's probably a statistical anomally, but can you think of anything to cut?
I often have trouble dumping my hand to make Bridge useful, do you experience the same?
Any SBing advice?

Thanks in advance!

[Shimi]

Played today my Stoneforge list(last page, -1volc -1tundra +1 fetch +1Mountain) against BUG Snapcaster pre-sb and it was very good(4-0), again my Snapcasters were just more StP or BS so I'm going to test -2 Snapcasters -1 SoBM +1 E.Tutor +1 Snare +1 PtE.

[sdematt]

I think you may just come to the conclusion that +Spell Snare + E. Tutor > Snapcaster stuffs.

-Matt

[sdematt]

This saturday I have an important legacy tournament, and due to the late surge in stoneblade and the usual large amounts of aggro, I've decided to play this deck, more specifically your list -1 Spell Snare, +1 Engineered Explosives.

Some thoughts:

Why no EE maindeck? I can't help it but feel naked and exposed if I can't blow up anything sans Jace that lands on the table.
Everytime I play 61 cards, I loose horribly. It's probably a statistical anomally, but can you think of anything to cut?
I often have trouble dumping my hand to make Bridge useful, do you experience the same?
Any SBing advice?

Thanks in advance!

If you're having trouble with Stoneblade, then I'd run some Torpor Orbs. Also helps with Snapcaster.

EE in the main is fine; it could probably replace the maindeck Blood Moon. Even though they serve different purposes, Blood Moon isn't the best against Stoneblade, whereas EE is much better.

Your loosing probably doesn't have much to do with the 61 cards or not. If you HAD to cut something, cut a Snare or something.

I don't usually have trouble dumping my hand, since everything in this deck is either a lockpiece, a Counterspell, or removal. Sure, if you've got a hand full of Forces and nothing else, then yeah, your hand will be crap. In that case, go for Moat or something. It happens though. I've had opponents just wait until I drew enough cards so they could attack. Point being: get a Jace online and try to start Jacing them out.

Sideboarding?

You've got extra stuff for your plans. If on the anti-aggro plan, board in Moat, Pyroclasm, Cursed Totem, Needle, etc. Load up on crap like that. You may want to cut Forces sometimes if your blue count gets low, or if there's too many things to counter.

If you're playing against control, Moons, Blasts, pierces, Needle, etc. come in. You try to be the better control deck.

If playing Combo, bring in the same stuff for Control, minus needle. Bring in Clasms for Goblin tokens.

If playing against Reanimator, bring in Crypt, blasts, Wheel, Moat, etc. Humility off of SnT is hot stuff.

-Matt

[Koby]

If you're having trouble with Stoneblade, then I'd run some Torpor Orbs. Also helps with Snapcaster.


Torpor Orb kind of stops your combo...

[sdematt]

Ah, I misread Torpor Orb as "Creatures lose Comes into play abilities." My bad.

Cursed Totem does a different, but good job. Shutting off Pridemage, Ooze, SFM, Knight, Mother of Runes, etc. is pretty good.

-Matt

[anwei]

How do y'all board against Tempo RUG (which seems relevant)?

I've been dropping some counterbalances/tops in testing for REB (amazing vs. snapcaster/delver builds which only run goyf as a non-blue dude) and other removal and like it.

Obviously a live counterbalance lock shuts down most of what they plan, but it's fairly mana intensive to play around Stifle/Wasteland and get UUW for CB + removal. Even a resolved lock can be too late.
Early Removal + a protected combat lock seems more effective to play for.

[sdematt]

So, I went 2-1 tonight; a play mistake cost me going 3-0.

I played the list I posted several times.

Round 1: Frodo with RUG Tempo - 1-2

Game 1, I get a decent hand, and lock him out with Bridge and removal. I get Thopters online, and he scoops.

Board in: 1 Blood Moon, 2 Pyroclasm, 2 REB
Board out: 4 Force of Will, 1 Counterbalance

Game 2: I get Bridge online, but I draw lands 7 turns in a row, so I never get my hand below 5. Awkward.

Game 3: The game goes long, and he Surgicals out my REB's. I get Jace out, and I have Bridge up, but it gets Krosan Gripped. My play mistake is: He plays Snapcaster Mage, I Spell Snare, he Force of Wills. I have the mana up to Counterspell, but I don't see he has Grip in the board, since he immediately grabs Surgical. As I let it resolve he gets Grip. My bad for not checking. Otherwise, my Jace was at 11. Oh well.

Round 2: Chad with Grixis Tempo - 2-1

Game 1: I get him easily when he uses double Daze to save his turn-2 Delver. I get ahead and land Jace, and he can't recover.

Boarding: Very similar to other tempo

Game 2: I lose since I open with a Volcanic Island/Tundra hand, and never draw land again.

Game 3: I fight through Extirpate, REB, etc. and finally land my last Jace and get him. This was a 45 minute game. Ouch.

Round 3: Dan with High Tide - 2-0

Game 1 I know Dan's on High Tide, so I auto-keep the Counterbalance/Top hand. He lands Candelabra, but I keep him off anything until I get the lock up. I land Jace then grind him out.

Boarding: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Humility, -Crap, -1 Blood Moon
Boarding in: +3 REB, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring

Game 2 I keep a hand of Snare, Pierce, Island, Fetch, Force, Jace, Top. I draw the Counterbalance and slam it on turn 2. I proceed to grind Dan until turn 4, and I force a Jace through. He Meditates into nothing, so I take 2 turns putting counters on Jace. I keep 1 and 2 floating off Counterbalance with an E. Tutor up for the 3-drop in case. It doesn't matter, since Jace gets him.

----

Overall, I'm really happy with the performance. Just a note: EE is really good, Moon was really good, Humility was great. I think I might want Moat in the main, but I'm not sure. These were not matches that I would want to board Moat in due to Delver, but Moat and Humility instead of Bridge would have given me more breathing space, since Bridge + Humility had me getting hit by 1/1 Delvers. Ugh.

I think 3 Jace is the right number, and I wouldn't want less than 3 Foundry, since you want to save Tutor for your bombs. Bridge was the tits, as was expected. I also really liked the board.

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

Thoughts on my sideboard?

3 Red Elemental Blast

[The Treefolk Master]

Thoughts on my sideboard?

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Karmic Justice

Thoughts?

I considered another Counterbalance SB, but Countetop doesn't seem too good right now. Pithing Needle is a nice catch all.

CoP: Red seems a bit narrow, but I like having an "Oops, I win" factor vs. all the red decks. Could be Aegis of Honour, but the latter is dead vs. Goblins, where CoP: Red shines.

I have 1 Blood Moon MB, although it hasn't been performing much (I'll admit I haven't encountered many MUs where it's useful), and 1 Humility MB.

Should I bring Moat post board vs. Blade Control? It narrows their kill to Clique and Jace, but their better at winning the Jace war. However, we have countertop, and it buys time for us to drop lock pieces, the combo, our own jaces, etc.

Thoughts?

[sdematt]

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Karmic Justice


Firespout is only good if you're also running the Trop for it, as well. Otherwise, just run Pyroclasm.

Circle Red could also be Warmth. No mana investment, but not exactly the same effect. It works pretty well, though.

I guess if you're running into infinite Pernicious Deed/postboard mass hate, Justice is great.

Do you run into lots of Combo? Not sure if you need both Cannonist AND Rule of Law.

I think you should being in Moat, since it stops Factory beats and Tar pit, and makes a lock with Bridge (their only flying creatures are Clique, and I'm sure you can keep your hand under 3). Plus, it only gets worse when they try to equip :P

-Matt

[anwei]

Here's the list I'm planning on playing this weekend (which obviously resembles a lot of lists here). I'm pretty new coming back to Magic after a few years, and don't get to play much. I'd appreciate any feedback:

Lands (22)
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn (1 will be an Arid Mesa, if I get one)
1 Academy Ruins
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

Selection (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 E Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top

"Spell" Control (12)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
1 Blood Moon

Board Control (8)
4 Swords
2 E Bridge
1 Humility
1 O Ring

Winning (7)
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 JTMS
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant(?)

CB Curve: 22 / 17 / 9 / 4 / 4 / 4
FOW Count: 20

Board
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aura of Silence(?)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds(?)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles(?)

The decision I consistently have the most trouble with is what to board out against creature-heavy aggro or tempo decks. Against (say) RUG Tempo, all of the lock pieces (CB-Top, Moon, Bridge, Humility) can dominate if I can get them up in time, and counters/removal helps establish these and/or hold off early threats. I would theoretically like bringing in 3 blasts, 2 Pyroclasms, EE, Shackles, and maybe Crucible/Needle (for Wasteland), but very little obviously comes out (O Ring). What else do you side out for this matchup? I saw sdematt pull Forces, which is probably right, but tutoring into a countered bridge can end the game. I tried removing counterbalance for a bit - it can obviously stop their mid game cold, but is still inferior to blood moon in this respect, doesn't touch their early creatures, and is pretty mana hungry. How do others play this matchup, or (generally) side out against aggro? Any other suggestions (especially on the '?' cards - I don't have access to Moat)?

[sdematt]

I think Shackles is a bit slow, but once you get it, you're good. I'd also take a look at Cursed Totem against Qasali and Scavenging Ooze.

I think Aura could be Seal of Cleansing, if you're looking for artifact/enchantment removal.


The decision I consistently have the most trouble with is what to board out against creature-heavy aggro or tempo decks.

Very true. It's like boarding against Zoo. In this case, you bring in your Blasts (hits Delver/Snapcaster), Pyroclasms, EE, and Spell Pierces. I think you take your Forces out here, since it's all about card quality, and 2-for-1'ing yourself is garbage. Force is good, but Spell Pierce is close enough. You want as many bombs as possible. I'd cut 4 Forces, Elspeth, and possibly O-ring, since you'll never really want to grab it.



I tried removing counterbalance for a bit - it can obviously stop their mid game cold, but is still inferior to blood moon in this respect, doesn't touch their early creatures, and is pretty mana hungry.

Counterbalance is the reason you can cut Forces. You are the control deck here, but you honestly can't afford to chuck many of your cards, and your blue count is tight anyway. You might as well just board in psuedo-counters, and grind the fuck out of them with Counterbalance. Sure, sometimes you won't get there, but I've found Force to be bad here.



How do others play this matchup, or (generally) side out against aggro? Any other suggestions (especially on the '?' cards - I don't have access to Moat)?

Moat is pretty key, I'd say. I mean, you can get away with more Humility (Humility with Pyroclasm is greasy), but stuff like Moat, Humility, Cursed Totem, etc. are all good at keeping creatures at bay. I'm not sure why you'd want to run Crucible, since it's not like you can Wastelock your opponent (which, with only one Wasteland, would be mediocre at best). You'd much rather Blood Moon them. Most decks won't have an immediate answer to Moon. Tempo can't Grip it, and they can no longer cast anything except Bolts/Dismember (which are boarded out against you).

I've also taken out my Plateau for a Karakas, and it's been much better. Reanimator can be relevant :)

If I were you, my board would be:

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing (are you using it for Enchantress? If so, then Aura is fine).
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles/Blood Moon/Moat/Karmic Justice

PS: I'd also go up one land to 23.

-MAtt

[Iron Buddha]

Counterbalance is the reason you shouldn't cut Force, because with Counterbalance you're able to overcome the CDA.

[anwei]

Counterbalance is the reason you shouldn't cut Force, because with Counterbalance you're able to overcome the CDA.

CDA?

What do you cut, then?

[sdematt]

Card disadvantage.

My point exactly. What do you cut, then?

-Matt

[bum_man]

I've played this match-up a lot recently and based on your sb, I'd probably put in:

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroclasm
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives

And take-out 1 Jace, 1 O-Ring, 2 FoW, 2 counterspell, 2 snares, 1 thopter foundry. My list plays 4 cb and top, so my main focus is to establish cb-top lock as early as I can. Slow counters are out since rebs and pierce are stronger against this match-up since its basically about fighting over your bombs (clasms, bridge, shackles, thopter and cb-top combo). I take-out Jace since I prefer Elspeth against buying me time against Goyfs and SCMs just in time to get cb top online into thopters. Counterbalance is a house against RUG if you're able to stop their early game surge, so loading up on removal and cheap counters for counter-wars is the way to go imo.

Just my 2 cents.

[mrtn]

Hey there,

This is the list that I might play in a tournament this saturday. What do you guys think about it? :)

1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Thopter Foundry

1 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
6 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Blood Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout

[sdematt]

I think you really want 4 Swords to Plowshares.

-Matt

[mrtn]

I think you really want 4 Swords to Plowshares.

-Matt

What would you cut then?

[sdematt]

Cut? Add. 61 is your friend.

-Matt

[Koby]

-1 Counterbalance
+1 Swords to Plowshares

That was an easy fix. Why do you suspect you need the 4th Counterbalance with 4 E-tutors?

[bum_man]

-1 Polluted Delta
+1 Swords to Plowshares

22 lands is enough, with all the stifle around, early game fetches is bad for a deck that lives or dies based-on being able to establish a stable manabase in the first few turns.

If you're going to play Spell Snares, -1 Counterbalance, +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

[sdematt]

@ ruckus

I didn't even see he was running 4 CB still. That's a better fix.

@ 22 lands

Are you fucking nuts? This is a control deck. You want at least 23.

-Matt

[Piceli89]

@ ruckus

I didn't even see he was running 4 CB still. That's a better fix.

@ 22 lands

Are you fucking nuts? This is a control deck. You want at least 23.

-Matt

Wrong. This is a control deck that runs a smooth manabase to optimize Counterbalance and solidity, without Wastelands and/or Factories (which would require a great amount of lands, as in UW Stoneblade ad Landstill). Really difficult to disrupt. 22 is the right number, you don't want to flood your early draws with lands in case of Top being absent. Never ever had screw problems with 22.

[Justin]

I agree. This deck works fine with 22 land for the reasons mentioned above. You can use Top and Brainstorm to to find what you need. Don't forget that you can Enlightened Tutor for a Seat of the Synod if you desparately need another land as well.

[sdematt]

Whenever I ran 22, I had tons of problems, even with all the basics we run. Now that I've run 24, but now cut back to 23, it was fine. Maybe it was just shit variance for all the time I was running 22, but I was always getting kicked in the nuts at 22.

-Matt

[The Colonel]

As far as the talk about lands go, lets not forget that 90% of the outcome of the game is based upon your opening hand. And NO ONE has control over what they draw. This is a card game and by it's nature, luck ultimatly controls how your hand will look.


Unfortunatly I'm being forced to shelve this deck for a couple months. We are victims of the current meta, at least in my area. I was at an 80+ tourney last weekend and I can't tell you how many games I heard my opponent say "Extirpate sword in response to the trigger". Even decks without black can rip our plans to shreds ANYONE can run surgical extraction. Unforunatly for us we are currently collateral damage of the format. Thank you very much dredge, snapcaster, reanimater. No one boards extirpate or surgical extraction because they are afraid of thopter/sword. But since the current format craves thos cards we get the splash damage from it. "hmmmm... I didn't expect to see thopter/sword. BUT HEY! I have 8 cards on my sideboad that completely wreck their deck." This must have been what my opponents were thinking after they were decimated game 1.

I think one of thopter/swrods best advatages is that no one sees it comming until it's to late. But because of the big graveyard decks out there right now everyone has the most viciouse hate for us.

thoughts?

[Piceli89]

As far as the talk about lands go, lets not forget that 90% of the outcome of the game is based upon your opening hand. And NO ONE has control over what they draw. This is a card game and by it's nature, luck ultimatly controls how your hand will look.


Unfortunatly I'm being forced to shelve this deck for a couple months. We are victims of the current meta, at least in my area. I was at an 80+ tourney last weekend and I can't tell you how many games I heard my opponent say "Extirpate sword in response to the trigger". Even decks without black can rip our plans to shreds ANYONE can run surgical extraction. Unforunatly for us we are currently collateral damage of the format. Thank you very much dredge, snapcaster, reanimater. No one boards extirpate or surgical extraction because they are afraid of thopter/sword. But since the current format craves thos cards we get the splash damage from it. "hmmmm... I didn't expect to see thopter/sword. BUT HEY! I have 8 cards on my sideboad that completely wreck their deck." This must have been what my opponents were thinking after they were decimated game 1.

I think one of thopter/swrods best advatages is that no one sees it comming until it's to late. But because of the big graveyard decks out there right now everyone has the most viciouse hate for us.

thoughts?

Surgical isn't a problem as long as you have 2 untapped mana. Extirpate is another story, but it already used to wreck the combo.
It is, however, played exclusively by Team Portugal/Junk as of now, and some form of crappy Monoblack deck.
What this deck lacks, in my opinion, is an alternative win-condition that eludes hate on the Thopter Combo while still being sort of tutorable, synergic with the strategy of the deck, and most of all that fills the CB curve nicely. Currently, there is nothing like that.
When people see Thopter+Sword from game 1 and manage to disable it, you're left with 3 Jaces as win-conditions, which implies 3 outs and great odds of ending the game into a tie (given this is basically a lockdown deck).

[tsabo_tavoc]

As far as the talk about lands go, lets not forget that 90% of the outcome of the game is based upon your opening hand. And NO ONE has control over what they draw. This is a card game and by it's nature, luck ultimatly controls how your hand will look.


Unfortunatly I'm being forced to shelve this deck for a couple months. We are victims of the current meta, at least in my area. I was at an 80+ tourney last weekend and I can't tell you how many games I heard my opponent say "Extirpate sword in response to the trigger". Even decks without black can rip our plans to shreds ANYONE can run surgical extraction. Unforunatly for us we are currently collateral damage of the format. Thank you very much dredge, snapcaster, reanimater. No one boards extirpate or surgical extraction because they are afraid of thopter/sword. But since the current format craves thos cards we get the splash damage from it. "hmmmm... I didn't expect to see thopter/sword. BUT HEY! I have 8 cards on my sideboad that completely wreck their deck." This must have been what my opponents were thinking after they were decimated game 1.

I think one of thopter/swrods best advatages is that no one sees it comming until it's to late. But because of the big graveyard decks out there right now everyone has the most viciouse hate for us.

thoughts?

1. Getting the stall suite and CounterTop before assembling the kill;
2. There is always Jace once the board is stalled.

Extirpate effects are annoying, but they do not kill the deck. Surgical Extraction is even easier to deal with. I am more afraid of Extirpate after an Enlightened Tutor than aiming at a win condition.

Edit: Extirpate can be rendered useless by Blood Moon.


What this deck lacks, in my opinion, is an alternative win-condition that eludes hate on the Thopter Combo while still being sort of tutorable, synergic with the strategy of the deck, and most of all that fills the CB curve nicely. Currently, there is nothing like that.

I have 4 Leyline of the Void + 1 Helm of Obedience from the board. Obviously, they only come in against graveyard decks and combo decks.

[obituary 95]

Whenever I ran 22, I had tons of problems, even with all the basics we run. Now that I've run 24, but now cut back to 23, it was fine. Maybe it was just shit variance for all the time I was running 22, but I was always getting kicked in the nuts at 22.

-Matt

I agree I have recently gone up to 24 lands and I am still considering going up to 25.

after years of playing I have learned to not care about cards like extirpate and surgical extraction, they are easilly stoped with counterbalence.

[sdematt]

If you're super worried about the Extirpate, if you can, float 1's on Top :P

-Matt

[bum_man]

@Lands: I've also played 22 lands in this deck ever since I picked it up late last year. It's been stable, resiient, and I've never encountered a time where I wanted any more lands. 23 would be fine though, but I would think anything more than that and the curve for counterbalance starts to get diluted. The only time I would ever want to draw into lands is when I'm under a bridge digging for win-cons.

Matt, noticed that you play Snares. I don't play Snares, that probably is the reason why I'm fine with 22 lands, I don't always need to have mana-up for counters.


@Extirpate/Extraction: Like Matt said, we can always float a one on CB when we expect extirpate and the like. I rarely go for the combo unless I'm pretty sure I could ride it to victory, so I always try to get cb-top online before going for the win. This is why I play 4 of each. I also play a singleton Vedalken Shackles as an extra win-condition/lock piece.

@Extra win condition: I agree with Piceli that a major problem in the deck is the lack of pressure that it could put on an opponent once the board has been stalled. A team-mate always said when we played that the deck is good but it needs to be able to finish games more, especially considering that this deck has the most crucial game 1s of any deck I've played. This is why I'm considering playing a 4th jace or Elspeth off the board so I would have more outs during the gritty post-board games.

[obituary 95]

@Lands: I've also played 22 lands in this deck ever since I picked it up late last year. It's been stable, resiient, and I've never encountered a time where I wanted any more lands. 23 would be fine though, but I would think anything more than that and the curve for counterbalance starts to get diluted. The only time I would ever want to draw into lands is when I'm under a bridge digging for win-cons.

Matt, noticed that you play Snares. I don't play Snares, that probably is the reason why I'm fine with 22 lands, I don't always need to have mana-up for counters.


@Extirpate/Extraction: Like Matt said, we can always float a one on CB when we expect extirpate and the like. I rarely go for the combo unless I'm pretty sure I could ride it to victory, so I always try to get cb-top online before going for the win. This is why I play 4 of each. I also play a singleton Vedalken Shackles as an extra win-condition/lock piece.

@Extra win condition: I agree with Piceli that a major problem in the deck is the lack of pressure that it could put on an opponent once the board has been stalled. A team-mate always said when we played that the deck is good but it needs to be able to finish games more, especially considering that this deck has the most crucial game 1s of any deck I've played. This is why I'm considering playing a 4th jace or Elspeth off the board so I would have more outs during the gritty post-board games.

you can try playing stillmoon cavalier to try and resolve this problem. or you can alter our mana base to play mishras factorys.

[sdematt]

I think Factory destabilizes our manabase, and gets bolted, STP'd, etc. to kingdom come, nevermind Wastelanded. I'd rather add an Elspeth or something. It also solves the Moat + Humility lock dilemma.

Snares are so good though. Against Snapcaster, Goyf, Qasali, etc. Awesome stuff.

-Matt

[lemariont]

Surgical isn't a problem as long as you have 2 untapped mana. Extirpate is another story, but it already used to wreck the combo.
It is, however, played exclusively by Team Portugal/Junk as of now, and some form of crappy Monoblack deck.
What this deck lacks, in my opinion, is an alternative win-condition that eludes hate on the Thopter Combo while still being sort of tutorable, synergic with the strategy of the deck, and most of all that fills the CB curve nicely. Currently, there is nothing like that.
When people see Thopter+Sword from game 1 and manage to disable it, you're left with 3 Jaces as win-conditions, which implies 3 outs and great odds of ending the game into a tie (given this is basically a lockdown deck).

Hi people. Im new in the forum, but I´ve been reading it for 6 months or so. First all, sorry for my bad english.

-My first question is for Piceli89... How to avoid the surgical with the two mana?? I dont understand, explain a bit please.

-And as for the another win-con question; I´ve been trying in the deck, the inclusion of Tezzeret the Seeker. Is an alternate win-con, and an amazing tutor for the combo.

Bye...

[Piceli89]

Surgical Extraction is easily played around when it targets Sword of the Meek with its return trigger on stack by saccing another artifact and returning it into play. At that point, Extraction will fizzle as there is no target. I know it's kinda expensive to have another thing to sac, but this deck runs an acceptable artifact density.

My main concern with this deck, however, is that it aims to create a lockdown situation and, in doing this, it completely dedicates most of the turns trying to set and keep the Countertop combo and grabbing the other pieces. While this often works, you may find yourself in situations where you lose because of a missed cmc on top or the opponent managing to break your lock before you ramp Jace to win. This literally makes you lose the entire match because you're left with something like 15 minutes and we all know you can't win in that time with this deck (left alone rare cases in which you get the Thopter combo on the field on turn 2-3-4 and the opponent doesn't do anything to stop you).
What I mean is that this "only-defense" approach may often kick you in the balls. Especially now that Maverick seems to be the real deal, and runs Qasalis, Thrun, Zenith, and postboard Krosan Grip. All that stuff punishes permanent-based control so hard; plus, Ooze makes disables the Thopter combo hard. Morgothian has heavily modified the maindeck to fight that very matchup, and, although this sounds good (now he runs a grand total of 10 cards between spot and mass removals), you're just a totally defensive deck with little to no win-fast power. Plus, I really fear those cases where you board out the Foundry combo because it's no good, and you're only left with Jace. What if they Extirpate it? Surgical is a real card, and it's always boarded in against any form of control.
This metagame requires to answer threats and win games from there fastly with our owns. But it seems we lack diversified, resiliant win conditions. Unfortunately, Counterbalance poses serious costraints that furtherly restrict our choices for this purpose.

Also, how many times did you find yourself with Foundry or SotM in hand (you opened with or drew into it), and it was essentially a dead card doing little to nothing on its own without the other piece? Because of this reason, I abandoned that route. You can't afford to run cards that aren't strong on their own, and relying excessively on Enlightened tutor hurts a deck that should want to capitalize on some sort of advantage. It would be alright if the build was heavily directed at it (something along 3-2 F/S or even 4-2 F/S), but that implies other tweaks and the deck would lose ground against some matchups.

@Tezzeret, AoB: Morgothian used to run it for a period, but then cut it because- I guess- judged it to be shit.

[sdematt]

You need to run more cheap artifacts for Tezz to be good. It's a route, but it's different than traditional Thopters. You'd have to run a more artifact land heavy manabase, and probably some Chrome Moxen/Mox Opal.

-Matt

[lemariont]

Many thanks for the comments. I know that you can save SoTM with another artifact in play, in response to Surgical Extraction, but did not understand with te "two mana"; ty for the explanation Piceli.

On the other hand, I have a tournament next Sunday. This is the deck I´ve been testing; very similar to Andrea´s Morgothian Supreme Thopters, but with less removal and with a little more counters....

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain

1 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened tutor
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

1 Wrath of God
1 Pyroclasm

1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
3 Counterbalance

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Sense Divining Top

Sideboard:

1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Energy Flux
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Moat

The only cards that I´m not sure, are trinket mage and EE. I´m thinking of changing the Mage for another Enlightened Tutor in Main, and maybe the EE for an Oblivion Ring.

And in the other hand, I have too many problems to win with this deck, post board. I have 2 pithing, but yesterday in second game against Agro Bant, I played Pithing to Qasali, and my oponennt destroyed my Ensnaring Bridge with EE in the next turn. How do you deal with that toons of different removals??

Some advice??

[sdematt]

Cursed Totem is great at fighting both Qasali and Ooze, two of the main problems you'll find with the deck. That way, Pithing Needle can go name something more relevant, instead of always have to worry about that crap. Plus, it turns off Knight so they can't Bog you, they can't accelerate with Noble, can't Grim Lavamancer you, no Mother of Runes effects, no Scryb Ranger, etc. They lose so much value in all of their creatures. I'd suggest it as a 1-2 of.

Trinket is interesting. It gets EE, Needles, Top, Seat and Crypt and puts them into your hand, which might be a bit better than the E. Tutor. But, I think at 3 mana, I'd almost just rather have an extra E. Tutor, even if it does put it on top.

For Aegis of Honour, you could also try Warmth. Similar, but not as mana intensive. In the pure Burn matchup, Aegis is probably a bit better, but this deck is mana hungry, I'm not sure if it's the best. Your call, though.


-Matt

[Morgothian]

Hi everyone, it's a long time since I don't post here...I don't have much time to play anymore, but one week ago I brang a revised Thopter List desined to succeed in a field where:

-about 30-35% of decks are Maverick
-about 20% of decks are Canadian URG
-about 20% of decks are Storm Combo, Ichorid, Reanimator and Hive Mind decks

So, knowing roughly more than two thirds of the meta I've tuned the deck with a maindeck configuration that owns Maverick, due to the vast amount of spot and mass removal, allows you a good MU vs. Storm combo thanks to 4 Top + 4 CB + 2 Tutors supported by counters and allows you to play fairly (and more-than-fairly post-board) against Canadian, for the solid manabase.

The deck, as usual, has a number of tutorable silver bullets that are istant win against many decks, in particular Ensnaring Bridge and Humility.

Here's the list:

Thopter Foundry aka “The Winter is Coming” by Davide Christian Orazi

1x Academy Ruins
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn

4x Sensei’s Diving Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
4x Counterbalance
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
1x Esnaring Bridge
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Wrath of God
1x Humility
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Enginereed Explosives
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard

2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pyroblast
3x Flusterstorm
1x Path to Exile
1x Energy Flux
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Blood Moon
1x Esnaring Bridge
1x Cursed Totem

Having no creatures maindeck gives you an immediate advantage in G1, because the removals of your opponent will always be dead cards. Sideboard adjusts a lot of games against control and aggro-control; by the way, after the tournament, I've cut 1 Energy Flux for 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant.

The MUs I've enxcountered in this 7 turn tournament:

T1: Belcher, 2-0
T2: Ichorid, 2-0
T3: Hive Mind, 1-2
T4: Monoblack, 2-0
T5: White Weenie, 2-0
T6: Maverick, 2-0
T7: Maverick, I.D.
Quarterfinals: Maverick, 2-1
Semifinals: Hive Mind, 2-1

In the finals I splitted 4 Tundra and 4 Dark Confidant FOIL with a Maverick player.

For questions and doubts I'm at your disposal.

-Morgothian

[sdematt]

Nice fucking job, I like it.

-Matt

[lemariont]

Hi all

Is not best pyroclasm than firespout??

What do you think???

[sdematt]

If you want to splash the Trop, than Firespout is better. But, I want a more stable manabase, so I'll take Pyroclasm.

-Matt

[Koby]

@Morgothian

What would you suggest to change in your deck for a metagame with less Maverick and more Reanimator?

[sdematt]

Probably another Bridge, and some Humility, Moat, Karakas action.

-Matt

[Morgothian]

Well, if you have a lot o reanimators in your meta you can make these changes:

-2 Firespout +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Engineered Explosives +1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Plains +1 Karakas

And cut from the sideboard 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Enery Flux and 1 Relic of Progenitus in favor of 2 Firespout and 1 Engineered Explosives.

[sdematt]

Wishing all you gentlemen a Merry Christmas!

Any progress?

-Matt

[lemariont]

Marry Christmas to all¡¡¡¡¡¡

Trying in last decks, with Stoneforge sb. Is fantastic and gives us a quick victory in the second game (when all opponent´s removal is out) with batterskull or thopter combo.

For me, much better with Stoneforge.

[sdematt]

But do you feel you have enough counterspells to protect it, even if they've boarded out most of their removal?

Show us your deck and boarding plans.

-Matt

[lemariont]

No creatures in first game, give us a great card advantage against at least the 80% of the metagame (and the other 20 is usually ANT, and we have the perfect card against it; the counterbalance). For me at least, the first game usually becomes victory; the problem is the second game.

In second game, our opponents, usually sb out all removal, and sb in artifact hate, and anticontrol cards (pernicious, krosan grip, engineered explosives, red elemental blast, etc.). This is the perfect opportunity for ous stoneforge.

If the opponent begin agressively, we can search a batterskull, or maybe the SoTM, if we have the thopter foundry or a tutor in hand. Stoneforge, is not card-disavantatge, give us half-combo even if she dies, and gives us some time for our lock-pieces.

Two months ago, this deck worked perfectly with stoneforge. I give her another chance, and I think that she still work. This is my last deck....

2 Academy Ruins
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility

1 Wrath of God
2 Firespout

Sideboard

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Energy Flux

What do you think????? At least for me, best with stoneforge, and best if hidded in sb.

Marry Christmas¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

[dsck]

In second game, our opponents, usually sb out all removal, and sb in artifact hate, and anticontrol cards (pernicious, krosan grip, engineered explosives, red elemental blast, etc.). This is the perfect opportunity for ous stoneforge.


So you have the perfect opportunity to have 1/2 Squires? Why not Elspeths and Cliques?

[mishrazz]

Im putting together a counterTop deck as soon as my cards arrive in the mail.
I have a few questions for the more experienced CT players.

1. How come i never see Energy Field in the SB of this deck? Should be pretty sweet against aggro. It buys time to set up lock and find a sweeper.

2. I consider running a Tezzeret, agent of bolas MD. He helps you find your artifact pieces, can gain you life, and create blockers or finishers out of your extra SDT's/shackles/bridge etc. Any thoughts?

3. My meta is overrun by tempo BUG and RUG, Any advice on how to teach the delver/stifle boys a lesson? What to SB against them and what to counter?

Thanks in advance :smile:

[sdematt]

1. How come i never see Energy Field in the SB of this deck? Should be pretty sweet against aggro. It buys time to set up lock and find a sweeper.


Because you crack fetchlands and have Thopter combo. Plus, Field is actually garbage.


2. I consider running a Tezzeret, agent of bolas MD. He helps you find your artifact pieces, can gain you life, and create blockers or finishers out of your extra SDT's/shackles/bridge etc. Any thoughts?

Some people have tried it and liked it. I'd be ok with one maindeck, since it does give you an out besides Jace if you're under Moat + Humility lock. He's ok, but he works better if you have 15-20 artifacts.

3. My meta is overrun by tempo BUG and RUG, Any advice on how to teach the delver/stifle boys a lesson? What to SB against them and what to counter?

Pyroclasm is good, Blood Moon is great, Humility is good (no Snapcaster, Pyroclasm = Wrath), Swords stays in, Counterbalance is great, etc. Counter Snapcaster if you can, but always check their graveyard to see what they can flash back. You're the attrition deck, but play it safe. If you wait until they tap out before you combo with Thopters (fear Stifle and Surgical), then you shoudl be fine.

-Matt

[Arcadia]

I have seen a lot of decklists with stoneforge MD. Why not? Sure now you are somehow vulnerable to removal but...If you don't feel like dying to STP search for sword of the meek. If you have counterbalance, you can go for batterskull. Also, an aggro deck spending their second turn on removal is not bad.

I think instead of running firespout it's better to run snapcaster or path. Most of decks actually kill you with just on creature, or 2 and probably the best you can get is a 2x1. Or getting wastelanded and without casting firespout. That sucks. Snapcaster is slower, but you can reuse snare/ brainstorm/ whatever.

[obituary 95]

I have seen a lot of decklists with stoneforge MD. Why not? Sure now you are somehow vulnerable to removal but...If you don't feel like dying to STP search for sword of the meek. If you have counterbalance, you can go for batterskull. Also, an aggro deck spending their second turn on removal is not bad.

I think instead of running firespout it's better to run snapcaster or path. Most of decks actually kill you with just on creature, or 2 and probably the best you can get is a 2x1. Or getting wastelanded and without casting firespout. That sucks. Snapcaster is slower, but you can reuse snare/ brainstorm/ whatever.

I agree, I think the idea of not playing creatures so that you gain virtual card advantage is wrong. and I think this for two reasons. the first is that blanking on average four spells is not all that great, expecially since the format has spead up alot. also I think that the idea that you can go on with out playing creatures when they are getting more powerfull than spells is not correct. it is only a matter of time before creatures get on par with spells or get more powerfull.

three casting cost spells are becoming a smaller part of the format we need our counterbalence curves to reflect this change

[sdematt]

We neither have the counterspells nor the tempo advantage to run out a Stoneforge and have it get plowed. We don't have enough Forces, and having an equipment with no creatures to attach it to (unless we go for Batterskull or the SotM) sucks.

Everyone is ready for SFM, and the decks its played in best have either lots of counters or creatures to attach the equipment to, of which we have neither.

I think it's a fine tutor, since it also gives the flexibility of going to get Batterskull/Sword of Feast and Famine, but remember, we're not all in on it, and I think it dilutes what we're trying to do: Thopters. If you're using it to grab Sword, then do what you want, but know that you're just tutoring, and don't expect much else. Plus, dead cards, no matter how many, are great. Sure, they're easy outs for sideboard material, but I'm okay with that.

-Matt

[lemariont]

We neither have the counterspells nor the tempo advantage to run out a Stoneforge and have it get plowed. We don't have enough Forces, and having an equipment with no creatures to attach it to (unless we go for Batterskull or the SotM) sucks.

Everyone is ready for SFM, and the decks its played in best have either lots of counters or creatures to attach the equipment to, of which we have neither.

I think it's a fine tutor, since it also gives the flexibility of going to get Batterskull/Sword of Feast and Famine, but remember, we're not all in on it, and I think it dilutes what we're trying to do: Thopters. If you're using it to grab Sword, then do what you want, but know that you're just tutoring, and don't expect much else. Plus, dead cards, no matter how many, are great. Sure, they're easy outs for sideboard material, but I'm okay with that.

-Matt

That is the reason I play the stoneforge in sb for second game: Opponent dead cards in first game. I think that is very important and give us a grest advantage. But in second game, the stoneforgecan easy take batter or SoTM, and his survivality has increased a lot....

[sdematt]

I agree with you. Some people argue though that he should be in the main, since 4 dead cards don't matter, and I disagree with that. I think if you are going to play him, it should be as a 3-of, and in the side.

-Matt

[lemariont]

Hi all

3-4 place in a 25 players tournament last Sunday (not bad for me xd). The deck, very similar to morgothian´s deck. Only changed one firespout for another wrath of god; and for de cc3, I added the vedalken shackles for one jace (two many cc4). My sb was little different too...

3 Stoneforge
1 Batterskull (give me the victory more times than thopters lol)
3 Red elemental blast
1 Pithing needle
1 Spell pierce
1 Wheel of sun and mon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Energy flux
1 Cirle of protection: Red
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Blood moon

And the MUs I´ve encountered:

T1: Reanimator, 2-0
T2: Reanimator, 1-1
T3: Reanimator, 2-0
T4: Blade Control, 2-0
T5: Goblins, 1-1
Quaterfinals: ANT, 2-0
Semifinals: New Horizons, 0-2

The counterbalance was awesome, giving me the reanimators pairings and the quaterfinals vs ant. But the new horizons deck... bufff, is one of my worse pairing. I always lose against it :mad: (¿Any advice against this deck????)

I have thought some changes, and the deck would look like this.....

1 Academy Ruins
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod

1 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords
2 Enlightened tutor
3 Jace
1 Ensnaring bridge
4 Top
1 Sword of the meek
3 Thopter foundry
1 Engineered explosives
4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God
1 Firespout

SB: The same, in first of this post

With this changes, I removed the vedalken (very useless) and added the trinket mage for the cc3, and another jace (perhaps too cc4).

Any thoughts??????

[Storming_Dude]

Really nice job!

@Decklist: Have you tried to play Oblivion Ring instead of Trinket Mage? - I really like it a lot cause it's handling a lots of nasty stuff.
I'm also running the second Fire Spout instead of the second Wrath, just a personal preference. Did it help you alot during the tournament?

@Sideboard: I really like the idea of adding SFM & Batterskull to the SB, during which MU has it won your games and what have you sided out for it?

[lemariont]

Oh sorry, forget the Oblivion Ring in the list (edited).

-I tryed the deck with the 2 Firespout and 1 Wrath of God configuration sometimes, but encountered in too many games that firespout doesnt did his job (tarmos, KotR, delvers and no tropicals, etc.). Wrath of god is 1 mana more, but its white (more easy to find), and also affects a noble hierarch or a great tarmogoyf (is best in some MUs, like Show and Tell or Reanimator too; where firespout is useless)

-I usually sideboard the two Jace for the SFM and Batterskull if I have a quickly deck in front and maybe two FOW if its a tempo deck, or removal if its a combo deck.... Depends on pairing.

[sdematt]

I think the key to beating Bant is shutting off Qasali and if you can, Grip. Cursed Totem slows them down by taking out their mana production and protection via Mother of Runes, as well as shutting off both Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Scryb Ranger, etc.

Ensnaring Bridge is a beast here, since they can't put Equipment on their stuff, nor can they swing with Knight. Moat is also huge, since they can only grab Scryb ranger to fly in, and well, I'm sure in 20 turns you can find something to kill them with :)

I think Totem right now is huge. I'm almost thinking of maindecking 1-2, and sideboarding another.

-Matt

[from Cairo]

I definitely like the application of Ensnaring Bridge against a lot of the format. But I think Wrath of God and Humility (w/ 4x+ Island and 2x Plains) are stronger than Cursed Totem. They have application against Tribal, Junk, Deadguy, Reanimator and Show and Tell, where Cursed Totem is really only ridiculous against decks with 8+ ability guys: Maverick, Bant and Death and Taxes. The fact that Cursed Totem still leaves you cold to Exalted, in the GW(x) matches, is a pretty relevant point as well.

[sdematt]

Don't worry Cairo, I'm playing everything, I just want moar Totem.

-Matt

[lemariont]

You are on the right goal Matt. In the two games against Bant, the quasali was who makes the difference. In first game qasali destroys my ensnaring bridge, and in second game, I was forced to counter a qasali, and in my turn, my opponent countered with Fow my Wrath of God.

I think that really the key is humility, but is true that Cursed Totem is more, more quickly than humility, and then maybe the solution is to put two Totems in sb against this decks. He is bound to counter the Totem via Fow, and if he plays Grip, we have the other Totem and the Humility.

And... what do you thinks about my list guys?????

[lemariont]

I have a Maverick deck ready; but I feel sorry now that my Thopters begins to work really well.
:cool::cool::cool:

[Koby]

@sdematt - Can you share your latest list? I'm looking for a list to throw into my Gauntlet. The last list I've played was Morgothian's and it seems that one might the place to start.

I'm also thinking that once Dark Ascension is out, playing a small Trinket Mage package (2 Mage, 1 EE, 1 Cage) might be useful for the maindeck.

[Koby]

Hi everyone, it's a long time since I don't post here...I don't have much time to play anymore, but one week ago I brang a revised Thopter List desined to succeed in a field where:

-about 30-35% of decks are Maverick
-about 20% of decks are Canadian URG
-about 20% of decks are Storm Combo, Ichorid, Reanimator and Hive Mind decks

So, knowing roughly more than two thirds of the meta I've tuned the deck with a maindeck configuration that owns Maverick, due to the vast amount of spot and mass removal, allows you a good MU vs. Storm combo thanks to 4 Top + 4 CB + 2 Tutors supported by counters and allows you to play fairly (and more-than-fairly post-board) against Canadian, for the solid manabase.

The deck, as usual, has a number of tutorable silver bullets that are istant win against many decks, in particular Ensnaring Bridge and Humility.

Here's the list:

Thopter Foundry aka “The Winter is Coming” by Davide Christian Orazi

1x Academy Ruins
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn

4x Sensei’s Diving Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
4x Counterbalance
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Firespout
1x Esnaring Bridge
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Wrath of God
1x Humility
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Enginereed Explosives
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard

2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pyroblast
3x Flusterstorm
1x Path to Exile
1x Energy Flux
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Blood Moon
1x Esnaring Bridge
1x Cursed Totem

Having no creatures maindeck gives you an immediate advantage in G1, because the removals of your opponent will always be dead cards. Sideboard adjusts a lot of games against control and aggro-control; by the way, after the tournament, I've cut 1 Energy Flux for 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant.

The MUs I've enxcountered in this 7 turn tournament:

T1: Belcher, 2-0
T2: Ichorid, 2-0
T3: Hive Mind, 1-2
T4: Monoblack, 2-0
T5: White Weenie, 2-0
T6: Maverick, 2-0
T7: Maverick, I.D.
Quarterfinals: Maverick, 2-1
Semifinals: Hive Mind, 2-1

In the finals I splitted 4 Tundra and 4 Dark Confidant FOIL with a Maverick player.

For questions and doubts I'm at your disposal.

-Morgothian

Bringing this up to the fore-front. Now that American metagame is catching up to Europe's I feel this deck warrants another look as "The Solution".

[sdematt]

Sure, Jacob.

I ran this the other night and went 1-2. Round 2 against Maverick was bad. He could have Demonic Tutor'd every turn and not gotten better cards, it was insane. I had tons of answers, the combo, but he had everything.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
1/2 Volcanic Island
1/0 Mountain
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell/Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

board:

2 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon

(swapped a Moat for another Totem, but Moat's great if you're expecting tons of other aggro like Zoo).

-Matt

[sdematt]

An Italian gent placing 3rd with a 62 card maindeck. What a boss.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7515&iddeck=54575

Any thoughts on the new shift of the meta including lots of Deed to combat Maverick? We're collateral damage here, fellas. I'm thinking boarding more Needle, Crypt/ Grafdigger's cage, and Karmic Justice.

-Matt

[GGoober]

Deed probably doesn't play well with Counterthopters (since you want permanents in play), but I was very tempted to try out Deedstill (Jacestill) :D

Regarding rukcus' comment on Trinket Mage, is it worthwhile exploring TM as a 2-3 off in the maindeck? It could provide some 3cmc slot and shifting the Firespout removal to Wrath in the 4cc slot, not sure if upping the overall cmc of the deck this way does the deck any good.. I feel that Trinket Mage into cage is still a tad too slow against Reanimator/Dredge etc when you can just max out on ETutor to get the card out faster at the cost of a card.

[sdematt]

My cards are on the way, right? :)

I was talking about Deed owns us as well, not discussing us including Deed :tongue:

-Matt

[Piceli89]

My cards are on the way, right? :)

I was talking about Deed owns us as well, not discussing us including Deed :tongue:

-Matt


Since Deed is pretty much played only by Nic Fit, and being it on the rise, a good idea may be to run a parallel combo in the deck that doesn't rely on permanents, that may also shore the Maverick matchup as well as being an all-star utility and a (looooong term) win condition. Punishing fire + Grove of the Burnwillows is that combo. A poster suggested a list some time ago, I managed to give it a catch before it was deleted.

The only problem worth discussing, with 4 Groves, is how you'd be forced to dirt your manabase and reduce the consistency of turn 2 Counterbalance (which isn't impressive at all in this metagame except for Storm combo and Threshold, tbh). CB Curve should be adjusted to tweak a right number of 2 drops, too.

[3duece]

Countertop lock is just as good against the field as its always been, except now almost no one plays mountain, lackey go. It's great against stoneforge and bug, and outside of zenith is good against maverick. Against nic fit, deed and pulse are really the only problematic cards, humility takes care of everything else. Just float a three on top. Or play pierce over snare. Also, veteran explorer is our friend. My current list is this-

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
4 tundra
6 island
2 plains
1 academy ruins
1 seat of the synod
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
4 enlightened tutor
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 spell snare
2 counterspell
3 jace, the mindsculptor
3 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 humility
1 ensnaring bridge

3 spell pierce
3 grafdigger's cage
1 tormod's crypt
2 wrath of god
2 path to exile
2 seal of cleansing
2 oblivion ring

[Dalapin]

My goodness there hasn't been any talk in this thread. Get excited! if Delver burn is a thing, so to can be Counterbalance

Well I'm excited to play my new Moat at SCG Cincinnati next weekend, but I could really use some sideboard ideas for U/W For the following list. Now I know with all this Delver that Moat is probably better in the side, but I'm going to lose the first or second rounds anyway and will be paired with non-meta lists so maybe Moat main is better against random stuff?

Lands: 22
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Academy Ruins

U/W Spells: 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Counter Spell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Tutor Package: 18
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance (likely 1 in the side)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Moat

Initial SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage (Wheel of the Sun and Moon until I get one)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge (Too many bridge effects?)
1 EE (Even though I run Bridge effects maybe good for tokens?)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Stony Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence

Just some general side board recommendations and any thoughts on how best to side against U/R Delver, RUG tempo, Maverick, and Reanimator would be greatly appreciated. They are just not match-ups I'm super familiar with.

[Piceli89]

When will people understand that 4 Enlightened Tutors are a mistake?

[3duece]

Why? Enlightened tutor gets any combo piece, any lock piece, and any cc on top? In my opinion it is the whole reason to play the deck.

[The Treefolk Master]

When will people understand that 4 Enlightened Tutors are a mistake?

Agreed.

E. Tutor is card disadvantage, if the card you tutored for gets countered/destroyed, you just con essentially Time Walked. I think 2 is the right number, enough to be able to find what you need, but not too many (horrible topdeck in icky situations; more card disadvantage).

You probably want another Thopter Foundry in, 3 and 1 is the correct number of combo pieces in my opinion.

I'd definitely run 4 Counterbalance and 4 Tops.

2 Bridge effects in the 75 is the right number, running less is likely a mistake. They are too good, no one really expects to face it right now, which gives a nice element of surprise.

I think you should choose between Moat and Humility MD. Right now, Humility is likely better (Maverick, Snapcasters, too many creatures with abilities), although if your meta is full of underprepared aggro decks, Moat takes a dump on their heads. I'd run Moat in the side though (or alternatively Moat MD, Humility SB). I really think Humility is better against random stuff, if they are trying to kill you with dudes, turning them into 1/1 is always game changing.

I'd remove the Stony Silence, it's too counterproductive.

If you have the possibility to splash red, do so. Blood Moon is amazing, and running 3 REBs SB really helps in the blue match ups. If you do so, V. Cliques are not needed (I'm not convinced by these anyhow, the Countertop Engine destroys combo and really trumps control).

You could try Flusterstorms instead of the Spell Pierces, but I'm not sure.

You could try a pair of Wraths in the board, they demolish Maverick and any random aggro decks without having to rely on grippable artifacts/enchantments.

I'm not confident enough to give SBing advice, you could ask Morgothian or sdematt on that though.

[Dalapin]

When will people understand that 4 Enlightened Tutors is a mistake?

Your logic and grammar are sound. I suppose I must agree with that sentiment.

[Iron Buddha]

But not with Counterbalance. Not only does it find a combo piece, it is part of the combo. Running 4x E. Tutor is actually the best reason to also run 4x Counterbalance.

[Koby]

I ran Morgothian's list in a local 8-man and went into the finals. Ensnaring Bridge and Humility are fucking awesome in the current metagame. I added a SB Elspeth to help out against attrition and it helped tremendously. The red splash helped out with Firespout, but I'm thinking that without much Zoo around that Pyroclasm or Whipflare (bonus doesn't hit Thopters or Mishra's Factory) would be better, especialy against Maverick and Tempo.

The O-ring is very useful too in the MD.

[sdematt]

Firespout is decent because you can not nuke your own Thopters, though.

I would say 4 Tutor is too many, but 2-3 is fine. I'm running 3 right now and I'm loving it. I've never been a huge fan of 4 CB/4 Top, so I'm running 3/3.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Anyone notice Thopters did really well this weekend? 5tyh place and 25th? place ain't too shabby. They're running the Tezzeret version, but still, great stuff. Just goes to show you Humility and Thopters are still good.

It's been discussed that maybe black is the way we want to go at the moment, since it gives you access to Perish/Virtue's Ruin. Plus, you can run a bit more gravehate. I also noticed these decks were running more Sword of the Meek, which can probably be attributed to the fact they're also running Tezzeret (you can draw into the combo more often, fair enough).

I'm thinking:

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring/Moat (all the Goblins, Dredge, Elves that may be coming up)
14

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
2 Sweeper (Wrath probably)
19

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
23

Sideboard:
2 Noxious Revival -> Anti-gravehate
1 Grafdigger's Cage -> Fuck you, Dredge/GSZ
1 Tormod's Crypt -> Fuck you Dredge
1 Virtue's Ruin -> Maverick
1 Perish -> Maverick
1 Cursed Totem -> Maverick/Goblins
1 Pithing Needle -> Goblins/the format
1 Engineered Explosives -> Tempo
2 Spell Pierce -> Anything/Storm
2 Flusterstorm -> Storm
1 Karmic Justice -> Pernicious Deed/Grip
1 Sun Droplet/Aegis of Honour/Chill (Chill is also nice since so many people run REB)

Thoughts? Revival is nice for dodging Surgical or just bringing back Bridge or something like that. It's been super good in Aggro Loam, and you're basically on a very graveyard dependent plan as well. Also, bring back Jace? Sweet.

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

I've been testing the deck a bit, and Oblivion Ring has been insane for me all day long.

I'm playing the following list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare//Counterspell (I'm only running 8 2 drops, Counterspell would up these to 2, which could be a positive thing... Plus it's much more solid in the Late Game. However Spell Snare stopping most of the format is insane)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

My SB is:

3 Red Elemental Blast (control, combo)
2 Flusterstorm (Control, combo)
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wrath of God (anything aggro, having 4 sweepers post board is nice)
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I'd like to fit a Seal of Cleansing or an Aura of Silence in the board, the biggest candidate to come off is the T. Crypt, as we're already running Cage + 2 Extractions. I could also try some Burn hate (probably Aegis of Honour), as I'm planning on taking the deck to a large tournament on Sunday, and it's probably going to be full of Burn given it's late success & cheapness. However, I'm thinking we should beat the deck playing tight (Countertop + Thopter Combo, although the latter is quite slow).

@sdematt

I like the deck, although it does hurt my eyes to see Mana Leak in a Legacy Decklist :tongue:

Black only adds Perish and Ruin, which I think is not enough. With Firespout, you're destroying the decks which you want to use Perish/virtue's Ruin against (Maverick) aswell as many more (Goblins, Elves, random dorks).

Plus, you get to run Blood Moon (trumps BUG, Punishing Maverick, etc) and REBS; which have been awesome in testing.

Nice Outside-of-the-box thinking on Noxious Revival, it had never ocurred to me to consider that card. It could be a good idea, although the presence of Extirpate in BUG decks plus the card disadvantage is a little discouraging. I'm not ruling it out completely however.

Any thoughts on my build?

[sdematt]

No one is really running Extirpate, everyone is running Surgical Extraction due to Snapcaster Mage, so you shouldn't have much to worry about. Ideally, I'd love you to play both Snare and Counterspell. What about cutting a Counterbalance (blasphemy, I know) for a Counterspell? I know they're two different cards, but one is a hard counter and one isn't.

Overall, I like the list, but I'm not liking the Surgicals. What are you using them for? Is it your Reanimator hate? If so, you're running Crypt, Bridge, Humility, Cage, Blasts, Jace, etc. You're fine. If it's for something else, enlighten me :tongue:. Get it? :cool:

-Matt

[Teknique]

I've been using almost exactly Morgothian's list as you all seem to have been doing as of late too. It's testing fairly well, the one thing I don't understand and has personally been an issue in multiple games already is the 2 Arid Mesa and 3 Scalding Tarn. This is just wrong. It should be 4 tarns (and maybe even cut the last Mesa), blue is always the most important color.

I run 1 Cage in the main. It's actually been phenomenal in testing, stranding GSZs in hands, shutting off PiF, it makes Snapcaster lonely, and the utility it obviously has against reanimator and dredge(haven't played this matchup yet though). I then usually side it out for real grave hate post board (obviously leave in vs Maverick), so for that reason I don't like it in the side; It's not as strong as dedicated hate, and if it's going to be ran should be in the main for at least g1 if only for the slight edge.

@ sdematt: surgicals have been pretty nice to get rid of annoying niche cards: (surgicaled the shit out of an angel's grace vs turbofog so I could actually win), Loam, Deeds, etc. But I'm not sold on the idea that it's absolutely better than just running multiple crypts or the like. Just recognize that it does offer a lot of utility for unexpected situations.

Also, I really like the idea of Noxious Revival and will test it out whenever I get around to it. Although, both you and The Treefolk Master seem to have overlooked (or at least forgot to mention) a pretty important selling point; its has awesome symmetry with CB itself..

[The Treefolk Master]

Now that I think about it, it is also hate vs reanimator, dredge, etc, as it works on them too.

Edit: Plus timewalking them...

[Teknique]

Now that I think about it, it is also hate vs reanimator, dredge, etc, as it works on them too.

Edit: Plus timewalking them...

I recognize that utility as well, however it's much less likely than it sounds. Noxious Revival wont come in till post board games, and Reanimator typically sides into Show and Tell. Your time walk potentially turns their entomb into Vampiric Tutor and kills you, so I'd play it as such very carefully.

Although I'd rather save it for better uses, if you're in dire straights, it also gives people -1 new card off brainstorm and other cantrips.

[from Cairo]

I run 1 Cage in the main. It's actually been phenomenal in testing, stranding GSZs in hands, shutting off PiF, it makes Snapcaster lonely, and the utility it obviously has against reanimator and dredge(haven't played this matchup yet though). I then usually side it out for real grave hate post board (obviously leave in vs Maverick), so for that reason I don't like it in the side; It's not as strong as dedicated hate, and if it's going to be ran should be in the main for at least g1 if only for the slight edge.

I definitely agree with this point. Cage has pretty broad application, and while it's not as powerful as dedicated hate, having it as a silver bullet preboard seems like it will give some virtual card advantage on most DTBs and some free wins against a couple archetypes.

[Koby]

Having played with Morgothian's list with MTGO's oddball metagame (everything under the sun, including 7 basics BUG... don't ask), I would agree with Matt that upping Tutors to 3 and reducing Counterbalance to 3 is the right approach.

I would still stick with 4 Tops, because that card is far more important for the deck than the optimal number of CB or Tutors; both of which can vary slightly depending on the metagame.

I have noticed how sub-par Spell Snare is as a 2 of, and would agree that it could be replaced with Counterspell. Especially so if we reduce the Counterbalance to 3 of.

[Jeff]

I'm the guy who top 8'd with the Tezz version this weekend, and for what it's worth I won't be sticking with the maindeck cage. That slot in the build was a complete metagame call, and the room was crawling with dredge in the early rounds. None of it made it very far in the tournament, because everyone was prepared, but walking around the room made it clear that dredge was there in force, so I figured cage was useful enough to be maindeck material.

I played against Maverick twice and RUG delver once, and never played the cage, despite having it in my opener against the RUG deck. It's a defensible maindeck card, but don't take my success with the deck as proof that the card belongs there, because it never entered the battlefield all day.

J

[Koby]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with Cage. Would you mind elaborating on some of the more interesting games/matches/plays from your run at the event?

[Jeff]

I don't mind at all. It's important to mention that I didn't design this deck. I play Team America about 75% of the time, and after a horrible run at SCG: DC, I mentioned to a friend that I was going to do something else for a break that week at our weekly event. He handed me this deck and told me to give it a shot. I had a lot of fun, and decided to practice with it for 2 weeks and play it in richmond. My point being, most of the card choices that worked I can't take credit for, and anything offbeat, I can't necessarily defend. The Cage was my own decision, as we both agreed to move Engineered Explosives to the board and used that flex slot for different things (he played a Contagion there).

The most important thing I learned with the deck was that playing lots of copies of the combo pieces was super important. I won a lot of games because I kept hands like Land, Land, Foundry, Sword, Force, Tezzeret, Chrome Mox. That hand lets you go for it turn 1 into turn 2, or be patient and go turn 2 and turn 3 with force backup. Drawing both combo pieces naturally instead of having to tutor for them is huge and offers options.

Against one of my maverick opponents, game one I assembled the combo T2 and T3, and he never really got back into it. Game 2 I assembled it T1 and T2, because I knew he couldn't counter it, and he answered with a turn 3 pithing needle naming Foundry. I don't remember exactly how but I tutored for or drew and stuck both Ensnaring Bridge and Humility, locking him out of using Pridemages to kill the Bridge, and then stuck a Tezzeret, who suspended for 1 and then drained him. The needle stopped me from blowing him out, but the fact that I had an incredibly efficient and easily protected alternate win condition meant it wasn't a big deal. If he hadn't been presenting a pretty good clock I probably could've tutored for an ORing and gotten the needle, but I think I remember doing the math and a K-Grip would've lost me the game, so I tutored for the Bridge instead and it worked out.

My match against Drew Levin was a feature match and is covered here (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_5_drew_levin_vs_jeff_mca.html). Drawing 3 foundries in game 2 was pretty nice, and more proof of why I'm running so many copies of my combo pieces.

Against Burn game 1 he started slow with a T1 Figure into T2 pump figure suspend rift bolt, which is absolutely about as slow as they ever start, so when I naturally had the combo on board by about turn 4 he never really had a chance. I don't think I went below 13 life at all that game. Game 2 I tutored on T2 for Aegis of Honor, which I played on turn 3. With 3 mountains in play, he responded by sacrificing two of them to fireblast in response to the Aegis, and then never managed to do much of anything else. With me at 4, He had two goblin guides off the top that would've been problematic if I hadn't had StPs, because he had a Barbarian Ring in hand that I wouldn't have been able to stop if I had taken 2 from a Guide, but I eventually assembled the combo and just won.

In the top 8 I was never even in a game. I played against the really aggressive affinity list, which was really my only bad matchup in the top 8. I kept a bad hand game 1 (5 lands, brainstorm, tezz) on the draw. Drew a land, then brainstormed into another land and 2 Sword of the Meek. Put 1 sword and a land back, cracked a fetch, and drew a sword of the meek. So yes, you occasionally see a lot of useless swords, but I lost one game to that all day, which was built on a bad keep, and won countless games by just randomly drawing both pieces.

Game 2 I kept Scrubland, Divining Top, Mox Opal, Swords to Plowshares, Tezzeret, Enlightened Tutor, Enlightened Tutor on the play. I play the scrubland and top turn 1, as well as the opal (just to shut off his, since it isn't active yet). T2 upkeep I spin the top and whiff, seeing Brainstorm Brainstorm Tezz. I draw a brainstorm and pass. T3 upkeep I tutor for Seat of the Synod, draw it and play it. I pass back to him with two mana open (opal and synod). He plays his 3rd land, then casts and flashes back ancient grudge targeting my seat and my opal. I spin the top in response and still see no land. T4 upkeep I use my second ETutor to go get an Ancient Den, which I play and use to StP something, but it isn't enough and I die quickly. Sometimes you just don't draw land, and then ancient grudge is a double stone rain.

That's most of the memorable stuff. I also played against Pox, but there really wasn't much to say there. His graveyard hate was Leyline of the Void, but he didn't have it in his opener, and never really got to 4 land. I stuck a Karmic Justice against him game two that really hurt the Wasteland/Sinkhole plan.

J

[Dalapin]

Thoughts? Revival is nice for dodging Surgical or just bringing back Bridge or something like that. It's been super good in Aggro Loam, and you're basically on a very graveyard dependent plan as well. Also, bring back Jace? Sweet.

-Matt

Well my thing with anti graveyard hate is usually I'm only worried about them hitting my Sword of the Meek, but unless it's extirpate as long as I leave 1 mana open I can always sac something on the stack to return my sword before Surgical resolves. I suppose it could be good to save Jace, I usually board into alternate win-con anyway (Elspeth/Clique).

I do like it as a possible blowout when combined with CB or Top however. But I imagine it's rough on the card advantage.

Matt can you tell us your experience with Noxious Revival thus far??

[sdematt]

I'll be doing some testing tonight and this weekend, so I'll keep y'all updated.

I do somewhat agree with running more pieces, but I think if you're running a non-Tezzeret build, I don't think you shouldbe running 4/3 Thopter/Sword split. With Tezzeret, you can dig like a champion, so you want 4/3 to draw it naturally. With us however, I think 3/1 or 3/2 is pretty good. I'm trying out 3/2 at the moment, and I'll let you guys know the results.

-Matt

[AngryTroll]

If you run black, is there any reason not to run Tezzeret? He seems like an incredible bomb. Space is tight, and you might have to choose between Counterbalance and Tezzeret, but even then you get to keep Counterbalance in the board.

[sdematt]

But the real question is, does Tezzeret do enough? Then you're already so heavy on 4-drops, that gets pretty awkward. Right now, I'm at 5 4-drops, with 3 Jace 1 Humility 1 Wrath of God, nevermind 3 Jace 3 Tezzeret 1 Humility 1 Wrath of God.

The black version is much more all-in on the combo. I'm not saying Tezzeret is bad or anything, I'm just unsure about it, personally. I think if you are running Black, you can still run the more traditional Morgothian build with black sweepers, which is still pretty sweet. Counterbalance is still a good card, and lets you have a more broad sideboard (you open up 3-4 slots).

I've recently switched Cursed Totem out of the board for another Humility. Even costing 4, I always want more Humility, especially with stuff like Firespout/Wrath. Delicious toasty everythings.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, post #1000.

edit: I just saw someone thinking decently well: Phyrexian Metamorph in the board. Why? Copy Teeg (hooray!) but also, copy their SFM to search for our Sword of the Meek. Excellent thinking, good sir.

-Matt