[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[Teknique]

Also, post #1000.

edit: I just saw someone thinking decently well: Phyrexian Metamorph in the board. Why? Copy Teeg (hooray!) but also, copy their SFM to search for our Sword of the Meek. Excellent thinking, good sir.

-Matt

For as long as I've been playing the deck (a few months now), I've always had 1 Metamorph in the board. It's another tutorable 4 drop if you need it, it's great as a nuke, and copying major utility (like SFM, Pithing needles, batterskull itself, the list goes on...) is always useful.

[sdematt]

Now I can play my Russian copy. I had always (narrowly) thought about it as copying Emrakul/Progenitus, or just another Ensnaring Bridge. The tutoring seems a bit better than I imagined.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Played a couple of very handy preboard games against Stoneblade. Oblivion Ring = the tits. Humility = Amazing. Honestly, I just love playing this deck.

Game 1 I ended up getting the combo online in the way late-game, but held him off by saccing useless artifacts to create tokens under Humility. Oblivion Ring took out his Jace so I had time to set up full combo.

Oblivion Ring takes out his Batterskull, and I'm able to get the combo online. Deck, you are amazing.

I wouldn't go to 2 tutors, however.

-Matt

[Teknique]

I played quite a bit last night in prep for a GPT. Unfortunately I can't say the same about my situation. My deck took heavy shits on me all night. I played against Stax, BUGstill (minus standstills if you understand the build I'm talking about), and RUG delver.

Any suggestions on these matchups, or was I just drawing terribly.

Stax is a serious pain in the ass. So much early disadvantage having to force literally everything they play. And I already play sub optimally in this matchup just because of how much tilt I'm put on by knowing I'm playing against Stax...I f***ing hate it that much.

BUGstill is terrible because deed's a blowout...no pun intended. And they almost always have the means to keep you from landing CB before they drop a deed.

RUGdelver is too damn fast. A bunch of games I finally stabilized at 1 life (almost none of which were with a CB in play), so I died a few turns later to bolt/chain lightning.

Any suggestions on optimal play strategies / SB strategies against these (I really only see delver as being played at the tournament, but knowing that my matchups suck against the others doesn't exactly make me glow...)

@stematt: what's your current build, MD and SB looking like?

Fun Facts:
- I played Noxious Revival and it was pretty hilarious. It actually would have been even more useful if it wasn't stuck in my hand under a 3sphere...(would have been able to put a force on top of my library to CB a batterskull)
- It acted as a time walk in the lategame once to put a land on top of opponent's library (was already not losing this game though), and a snapcaster to reuse a swords that was in my gy.

- I was never actually disappointed to draw it.

[sdematt]

Stax isn't super fun. I mean, sometimes they'll get the nut-draw, but they're super inconsistent. If you're really worried about Stax, just run Serenity or something in the board, and just remember they can't beat an active Jace. Crucible and Armageddon are their key bombs, so focus on those.

Glad to see Revival is as awesome as I thought it was. I'll have to try it a bit more. RUG Delver can be a bit horrible if you draw poorly.

-Matt

[Dalapin]

I was at SCG Open Cincinnati this past weekend playing our deck (The detailed report will be up later) and I didn't find Revival to be super blowout like I'd hoped but I had trouble figuring out how to sideboard all day (not just Revival, all 15). But 3-2-1 drop + the legacy challenge was super fun, and our buddy went Top 4 with RUG ^.^

Spoilers:
Moat VS Stoneblade = House
Pithing Needle > Grafdigger's (In the Main)

[sdematt]

Cool, let us know what you won and lost against.

-Matt

[sdematt]

I'm just wondering, has anyone tried the 1-of Ancient Tomb in the traditional lists? Just wondering if it's worth it as a 1-of.

New list, considering Looty Dredge is good:

Regular manabase (23)

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard: (Need to test Noxious more, but...)

1 Karmic Justice (Nic Fit is DTB? wtf...)
1 Pithing Needle (Coliseum, etc.)
1 Chill
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Moat (good against Dredge, I hear)
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spell Pierce
3 REB

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Koby]

I ran 1 Elspeth K-E in the SB a few weeks ago, and that performed really well in the Blue control mirrors. It nicely avoids REB/Pyro which some splash for. Other than that, it's looks like we can all generally agree on the base 60-70 cards.

I think that the SB Moat would be better served as Grafdigger's Cage if the goal was to answer Dredge. Same goes for the SB Humility. It might just be better served as a Metamorph against Reanimator.

[sdematt]

Metamorph for SFM into our own Sword also seems hot. Humility is for Pridemages and Oozes.

Your point seems super valid. How good is Grafdigger? Didn't someone say it wasn't the tits?

-Matt

[Teknique]

Against Dredge it's definitely not the tits. They still have all these ancient grudges in their yard and if one resolves, you're right fucked. I think double Ebridge is still the best (aside from moat but I don't own one :/ ) until your thopter army's big enough to close it out.

Elspeth is awesome vs control and jank like the gate and I wouldn't leave home without her.

I also want to keep testing revival but lately I've been running real cards in my sb to be safe.

[sdematt]

I think if more Dredge hate becomes super apparent, Revival will get better, since we get affected by Dredge hate.

-Matt

[Teknique]

I think if more Dredge hate becomes super apparent, Revival will get better, since we get affected by Dredge hate.

-Matt

I can see this being the case and I'm excited to blow people out with revivals. Now to get Russian ones....

[maurobad2k4]

Against Dredge it's definitely not the tits. They still have all these ancient grudges in their yard and if one resolves, you're right fucked.

How would they resolve a Grudge from the yard with a Cage in play ?

[Teknique]

How would they resolve a Grudge from the yard with a Cage in play ?

This is a good point. I brainfarted and mistakenly thought the second part was torpor orbs text.

[Koby]

Grafdigger's is easier to get out early, then setup a more stable long game lock like Humility or Moat. The point is that it can be cast on the 2nd turn with tutoring, rather than on the 4th turn.

[sdematt]

I've already got Russian Cage and Revivals on order, Tech :tongue:

-Matt

[Teknique]

I've already got Russian Cage and Revivals on order, Tech :tongue:

-Matt

:cry: Mind sharing your source? I've looked and can't find good selections on russian singles anywhere.

[AlmostGrown]

Any advice for playing against UW Stoneblade?

[Koby]

Any advice for playing against UW Stoneblade?

Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Cursed Totem, patience.

[Dalapin]

Here is the report I promised (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23191-2nd-Ever-Legacy-Event-SCG-Cincinnati), took 5 hours to get through all my notes. Let me know what you guys think!


Any advice for playing against UW Stoneblade?

Actually, I played 4 rounds against Stoneblade and did well in those match-ups this past weekend.

The actual advice is this:
- Cursed Totem is silly when it doesn't affect Geist of Saint Traft, Snapcaster, or any man-lands they choose to play.
- Moat beats all their guys
- Ensnaring Bridge beats all their guys.
- Humility + Elspeth beats all their guys.
- With all their guys beaten all they can do game 1 is play Jace, barring that, or their 1-of EE or O-ring, they lose.
- The most dangerous guy for us is actually Geist of Saint Traft because our only out is to have Combo online or a lock piece in play, if we don't he's a 3/4 turn clock.
- Know that all your 2 drops (Counterbalance and Thopter Combo) will get countered by spell snare.
- Yes, it's a slow, slow game; you'll win when they concede.

[sdematt]

The combo is what actually beats Stoneblade, though. Once you resolve Combo, unless they've already got a Jace ultimate online, they can't physically win.

-Matt

[sdematt]

How much grave-hate do you guys feel is enough? I'm wondering if I should be going with Crypt, Cage, and Wheel of Sun and Moon (the only matchup this would come in against, besides 43 Lands/Painter) or just go with Crypt and Cage (and you have sweepers, etc.

Thoughts on:

1 Moat (this is better against Stoneblade than I thought :tongue:)
1 Chill (not running Red would make this better)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout (maindeck has 1 Wrath 1 Firespout)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gerechtigkeit des Schicksals
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Open (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Back to Basics, Blood Moon?)

Also, thoughts on cutting Red? A friend suggested cutting Red, and then just upping your basic land count by 1-2, and running Back to Basics, since most of the Red cards we're playing can be replaced (says he). Pyro --> Pierce, Firespout --> Wrath

Jacob, if you had to run a sideboard at another GP LA where you'll be expecting some of the new Dredge, what do ya think?

-Matt

[Dalapin]

How much grave-hate do you guys feel is enough? I'm wondering if I should be going with Crypt, Cage, and Wheel of Sun and Moon (the only matchup this would come in against, besides 43 Lands/Painter) or just go with Crypt and Cage (and you have sweepers, etc.

Thoughts on:

1 Moat (this is better against Stoneblade than I thought :tongue:)
1 Chill (not running Red would make this better)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout (maindeck has 1 Wrath 1 Firespout)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gerechtigkeit des Schicksals
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Open (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Back to Basics, Blood Moon?)

Also, thoughts on cutting Red? A friend suggested cutting Red, and then just upping your basic land count by 1-2, and running Back to Basics, since most of the Red cards we're playing can be replaced (says he). Pyro --> Pierce, Firespout --> Wrath

Jacob, if you had to run a sideboard at another GP LA where you'll be expecting some of the new Dredge, what do ya think?

-Matt

You know how I feel about the 3rd color, I hate playing 4 Tundra's as is. Waste is just so frustrating when you're trying to resolve Moat, more Basics always feels good to me. Also you can run an extra basic and an Ancient Den which I love. BUT, EE get's worse. Not being able to hit 3's is huge, and makes the card a lot less versatile.

About Sweepers, I don't get them. We have lock pieces what do we need sweepers for exactly? I can't tutor for them, and they are equally as expensive mana wise. But after Cinci, I could see running more Dude-hate in the side in the form of a Wrath.

Chill? For the Burn spells that we can't hit with Counterbalance? I just haven't played enough match-ups where that card feels any more relevant than CoP: Red.

Pithing Needle is a house, it hits something major in almost every deck, and is excellent in the Stoneblade match-up.

I really feel like we should be running 1 if not 2 alternate win-cons in the side, Shackles and Elspeth seem to fit that very nicely, helps against all that graveyard hate as well.

Also B2B beats Lands, says Lands-guy-I-played-in-Cinci :-D

[sdematt]

B2B + Needle on EE = Lands does not win.

I was testing more tonight, and I was running this Sideboard against Stoneblade and Reanimator:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Moat
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Wrath of God
1 Karmic Justice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon/B2B
1 EE
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Chill
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

I really enjoyed it, actually. Against both decks, I had enough to bring in, and the cards I did use were 100% relevant. Cage is amazing against Reanimator. They need to derdle with bounce if they let it resolve, or wait for a Show and Tell (which isn't good, considering our bombs are just better).

Sweepers are necessary because sometimes they just counter all your stuff, or you don't draw what you need when you need it. Having something to buy you time is always good. I keep wanting to test Revival, but again, the only slots that are wishy-washy (Elspeth is amazing Jacob, thanks!) are Chill/Metamorph. I'd want Chill just for the extra fuck-you towards Burn, so we'll see, but Metamorph is very good against Reanimator and helps in the Stoneblade matchup. Moat was a house against Stoneblade; it single handedly won me the game. No Clique for you!

-Matt

[Storming_Dude]

Hey everybody,

I was lately testing a lot of different ThopterCombo Decklists and I've ended up with the following list, which performs pretty well for me:

Lands (22):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Creatures(3):
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Artifacts(9):
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Gravedigger's Cage
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Instants(20):
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker(3):
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchanments(2):
1 Back to Basics
1 Humility

Sorcery(1)
1 Wrath of God

The Sideboard isn't ready, but here are the some thoughts (with some feedback from sdematt, thanks for that!):

1 Karmic Justice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage #2
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Humility
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Phyrexian MetaMorph
1 Chill

The main changes might be cutting red and exchanging Counterbalance and Stoneforge Mystic. The first change was the switch of CB and SFM, because the Deck was way to slow and most the times I got killed before I had the ThopterComber only. That's why I added the SFM, and I have to say he does a great job in combination with E. Tutor cause I'm getting the combo really fast and consistent. Additionally landing a Turn 2 SFM into Batterskull and beating the opponent with Counterbackup is a great BackUp plan.
After these changes, I haven't found a single point for leaving red in the Deck. I cutted E. Explosives cause I personally never found it very useful during my test games (I maybe tested against the wrong decks^^). I also replaced Blood Moon with Back to Basics and I have to say I love it!

Another idea of sdematt was, to cut the B2B for a third Thopter Foundry and somehow adding a second Ensnaring Bridge.
I have to aggree with the Bridge, it is one of my most often tutored targets. But I'm currently doing pretty well with 2 Foundry's and the B2B which randomly steals games.

So just let me know your thoughts, looking forward to your responds!

Greets from Germany

[Dalapin]

@Matt what were you siding out in those match-ups?

[sdematt]

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Moat
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Wrath of God
1 Karmic Justice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon/B2B
1 EE
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Chill
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Stoneblade:

In: 1 Elspeth, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Phyrexian Metamorph, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Moat.
Out: 1 Force of Will, 1 Wrath of God, 1 Firespout, 4 Swords to Plowshares.

For me, the STP's didn't matter as much, since if they landed Equipment, big whoop. I'm trying to lock them out of the game, and all the stuff I bring in is better at doing that than trying to kill their SFM before it's active.

Reanimator:

In: 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Metamorph
Out: 1 Wrath of God, 1 Firespout, 1 Thopter Foundry, 1 Sword of the Meek, 1 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 random I can't remember :P

-Matt

[Hanni]

Because of my work on Superfriends, I never really spent alot of time playing or developing this deck. However, I decided to work on a bit, and I must say that I am impressed. While I'm still partial to Superfriends, the two decks a very similar, and have a very similar feel to them. Anyway, this is the list I've settled on for the moment:

U/W Control 2k12

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
6 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures (4)
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (35)
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I know the deck is a little bit different from most of the traditional lists. I mean, I'm only running a 1/1 split of Thopter/Meek, so it's really hard to classify this deck as Thopters. At the same time, because I run a 2/2 split of the Planeswalkers, it could just as easily be classified as Superfriends, and because I run 4/1 SFM/Batterskull, it could just as easily be classified as Blade Control. For that reason, I'm simply listing it as UW Control 2k12.

That is exactly what I love about this deck, though. It has a multitude of options for controlling the board, and many different angles of attack. The deck could go into Blade mode and drop SFM for Batterskull, or the deck could go Superfriends mode and drop a CounterTop lock followed by a Planeswalker.

What I really like is that with 4 SFM and 3 E Tutor, along with the 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top, I can get away with a 1/1 split of Thopter/Meek and still assemble it consistently every game. The benefit of going that route is that I'm able to cut down on the combo pieces, which are rather bad on their own, to run more control elements and better standalone spells.

I'm not sure if a list like this has been discussed before, and I'm not sure if a list like this is something that would generate any popularity within the Thopters community, but I figured I'd share my insights anyway. I'm really enjoying this list and it has been performing very well for me.

EDIT: Just realized that I only have 17 blue spells for FoW. Hmm... that's not good. Looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to remedy that. As much as I do not want to cut Elspeth, maybe it would be best if I cut it for 2 Clique or 2 Snapcaster. I think Clique would be better overall since this deck doesn't have a ton of instants/sorceries and it does have some bombs that it wouldn't mind Clique'ing before resolving. I can't see anything else worth cutting out of the maindeck besides SFM, but I think SFM adds more to the deck overall than Elspeth does, and is less top heavy. Going with Clique also ups my 3cc spell count some more, which is always good for the Counterbalance curve. Last but not least, Clique has flying, which plays nice with Moat... although Elspeth + Batterskull plays alot nicer under Moat, but whatever.

-2 Elspeth
+2 Clique

I guess...

I'll edit the above decklist to reflect these changes.

Actually... I'd be better off upping the Thopter count. I really don't want more than 2 though, since they are dead draws by themselves... -1 Clique +1 Thopter? Sounds good to me. 19 blue spells should be enough, I think.

[Dalapin]

Yay Hanni returns!

Sidenote, I'm cutting the Cliques in my side to try something closer to Matt. Is Metamorph actually good enough?

[yutang]

Re Hanni

How about adding in Spell Snare in the Elspeth slots? Spell Snare works well with Countertop.

Also, going to 22 lands is worth considering

[sdematt]

You're a control deck. Stoneblade runs 24, I usually want to run 23, since we want to consistently hit 4 mana on turn 4 if possible.

-Matt

[Dalapin]

I run 22 in 2 colors with only 7 nonbasics not including fetches. I feel if you pump up the basic count running 22 is safe enough when it comes to hitting 4 mana turn 4.

[sdematt]

Well, you also want Karakas, so....

-Matt

[Nazzerith]

Is less than 4 enlightened tutors really the way to go? I feel that, while they are card disadvantage, the amount of cards that can be tutored by them justifies running a full set. ANT used to run 4 mystical tutors, didn't they?

Also, is it beneficial to cut down on counterbalances and tops to make room for other cards like spell snare? Since the deck is based around the countertop combo I feel like it would be wrong to cut down on them. Is 3 of each really the right numbers?

Finally, what is the correct number of thopter combo pieces? 3 foundry 1 sword, 2 foundry 1 sword, or 3 foundry 2 sword?

[sdematt]

You also won the game the turn you cast Mystical tutor.

RE: Counterbalance numbers: It doesn't hit everything, and sometimes you won't have a 2 on top. I personally feel 3 CB with 3-4 Tops is the right number.

For the Combo, I've tried 2/1, 3/1, and 3/2 split. I've been liking the 3/2 thusfar, but 3/1 is also nice. Ups your 2-drops for CB curve, and adds another blue card for Force. Thopter is more important than Sword, since it'll restart the combo.

-Matt

[Koby]

1 Moat (this is better against Stoneblade than I thought :tongue:)
1 Chill (not running Red would make this better)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Firespout (maindeck has 1 Wrath 1 Firespout)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gerechtigkeit des Schicksals
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Open (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Back to Basics, Blood Moon?)

Jacob, if you had to run a sideboard at another GP LA where you'll be expecting some of the new Dredge, what do ya think?

-Matt

I think that the SB you posted is fine against Dredge. Lots of those cards have a ton of utility elsewhere too. EE for 0 is a good stop-gap measure, and Pierce still ruins their day. This is assuming you have 2 Bridges maindeck too.

I think 22 lands is fine for this deck, but it does make some of the early turns a bit tricky if you're land light. For that reason, I opt for a max 4 Tops to help ensure I make my land drops to 4 mana.

[Dalapin]

I think that the SB you posted is fine against Dredge. Lots of those cards have a ton of utility elsewhere too. EE for 0 is a good stop-gap measure, and Pierce still ruins their day. This is assuming you have 2 Bridges maindeck too.

I think 22 lands is fine for this deck, but it does make some of the early turns a bit tricky if you're land light. For that reason, I opt for a max 4 Tops to help ensure I make my land drops to 4 mana.

On the topic of carefully using Top with land light hands, sometimes you can also just go balls-to-the-wall with a mulligan to 6 against Reanimator like so:

Top
Flooded Strand
Counterbalance
Force
Force
Enlightened Tutor

Flooded Strand for Tundra -> E. Tutor @EOT -> Seat of the Synod -> Slam Seat and Counterbalance -> Force if Necessary.

Nailed it last night during testing ^.^!

[sdematt]

I love Seat. So nice for when you need an artifact to jump-start Thopter combo (and they can't counter it) or when you just need a land :)

-Matt

[Dalapin]

So, check it out, the Tezzeret version of our list made last night to Top 4!! Go team?

[Koby]

So, check it out, the Tezzeret version of our list made last night to Top 4!! Go team?

Barnello and Gearhart have been working on this version for about a year. It wasn't really good metagame for it last year however.

[sdematt]

This does count as a "way to go." Mind you, Gearhart is an excellent player anyway, so that certainly helps.

From reading the reports, seems like bombs are good. In that build, Tezzeret seems pretty great, but I'm still not moving over to the dark side. REB still helps in many matchups, and Moon can still be very good.

It just goes to show you Thopters itself is a legitimate strategy. Gotta love how you can break up the combo, but another Thopter Foundry turns it back on. I love it. Plus, Humility juicing that guy from getting 5 mana? Very nice.

Yeah, Barnello has had a love affiar with Thopters since before GP Providence last year. I'm glad they've made it work. I'd like to hear if anyone played the more traditional list in the tournament, and if they did play it, what did they think?

-Matt

[Jeff]

The version Gearhart and I played in Richmond and Charlotte eats RUG and all Stoneblade variants for breakfast. It's a complete metagame deck that is NOT a good all-around deck for whatever tournament you happen to go to, but considering what the average metagame is, I like the build right now. I haven't decided if I'm playing it for Indianapolis yet, but it kind of depends on what the next few weeks bring.

Somehow I played 8 rounds of magic in Charlotte and didn't face a Stoneforge Mystic or a Tarmogoyf (Saw Burn, Burn, Pox, Pox, Sneak and Show, BUG Control (not team america), Mono green stompy, and High Tide). My Top 8 in richmond was on the back of multiple maverick and RUG matchups. I'm pretty sure Gearhart faced 5 stoneblade decks in the swiss.

So . . . if you're going to play against stoneblade, rug, or maverick, this is a great deck right now. Also, the pox matchup is hilarious. Stick ensnaring bridge and watch them keep your hand empty for you. I'm now 6-0 in games against pox between richmond and charlotte, and none of the games have even been close.

J

[sdematt]

The Thopter combo itself just beats them, hands down. They have no way of interacting once it's on the board.

Unfortunately, I play in a very diverse meta where anything can show up, so I'm not prepared to go balls to the wall with the Combo. I do like Tezzeret for the fact that if you've walled yourself in under a Moat/Humility or such lock, you have a win condition with Tezz as well as Jace.

-Matt

[Jeff]

For what it's worth, after a disappointing showing in Charlotte I'm now 24-11-3 with the deck in sanctioned matches, and I'd wager that in that average sample size I've won as many games with Tezzeret as with Thopters. He's not the emergency backup win condition for when thopters don't work, he's a pretty ridiculously powerful card that wins games on a regular basis.

J

[sdematt]

Fair enough, but you're also all-in on the Tezz plan as well. I'm more thinking of it if I were to shoehorn a copy or two into the traditional list.

-Matt

[Jeff]

Oh absolutely. I'm not trying to convince you to tweak your list to add cards that are good in mine, I'm just trying to make it clear what the cards in this list are doing, and why they're better in list than they would be if they were just randomly stuck in. I actually run enough artifacts that he rarely whiffs on drawing, and in postboard games the -1 ability is relevant and wins (G1 it just turns on the creature removal they have dead in hand).

Unlike in affinity lists, he isn't QUITE "Suspend 1, win game", but he's pretty close. It usually takes an extra turn or two, but with him drawing you an extra artifact every turn, you can get 10 on the board pretty fast.

[Dalapin]

I've been considering the Tez list because all the acceleration looks like a ton of fun, but I don't really want to stray from my U/W basics and Moat....

Jeff could you enlighten me a bit on why it's a meta-game deck? Does it just lose to certain Combo or Combo in general? Can it be adjusted for different metagames or does the deck just naturally prey on decks that can't beat the combo and can't really be adjusted?

[AngryTroll]

It is worth noting that the Uwb Tezzeret Thopter list has two Top 8s and another Top 16 in the last few weeks at the SCG Opens. The lists have all been 59/60 in the maindeck, with one flex slot that varies between Oblivion Ring, Contamination, and a Grafdigger's Cage. I'm surprised that there isn't more discussion of the Tezzeret list here. Do people have strong feelings about the black splash? Is one splash more appropriate for a wide-open metagame?

[Teknique]

It is worth noting that the Uwb Tezzeret Thopter list has two Top 8s and another Top 16 in the last few weeks at the SCG Opens. The lists have all been 59/60 in the maindeck, with one flex slot that varies between Oblivion Ring, Contamination, and a Grafdigger's Cage. I'm surprised that there isn't more discussion of the Tezzeret list here. Do people have strong feelings about the black splash? Is one splash more appropriate for a wide-open metagame?

No disrespect, but did you read this whole page? (Or do you specifically mean talking about and listing different Tezz list ideas?)

That's all that's been talked about. Jeff is one of the people who top 8'd with the list..

[Koby]

No disrespect, but did you read this whole page? (Or do you specifically mean talking about and listing different Tezz list ideas?)

That's all that's been talked about. Jeff is one of the people who top 8'd with the list..

The other person being Mr Gearhart, which accounts for the other 2 finishes.

[sdematt]

Played in a tournament yesterday with Thopters, and drew some of the worst hands ever. I went 1-2, losing first round to RUG Delver (Vortex out of the board, and I was tapped out with Spell Pierce in hand, awk), then losing to Affinity (where I don't hit a lockpiece or tutor in about 10 turns).

Back to Basics was decent against Affinity, but I'd have preferred it be Blood Moon all day. Mucking our own stuff is fine if it's a Mountain, but when it doesn't do anything? Awk.

-Matt

[AngryTroll]

No disrespect, but did you read this whole page? (Or do you specifically mean talking about and listing different Tezz list ideas?)

That's all that's been talked about. Jeff is one of the people who top 8'd with the list..

I wasn't very clear; I meant that over the last five or ten pages there has been very little discussion about the Tezzeret lists. I was excited to see Jeff post some answers about the deck, but there's been almost no discussion about the Tezzeret list beyond wondering if the UB Planeswalker is worth losing the basics you get to run in UW (an excellent question).

Jeff's posts have been pretty helpful, but I'd love to see detailed discussion of the Tezzeret list, how they arrived at the list, choices on the slots, more detailed tournament reports, anything. Example questions I've had as I assembled the deck over the last month:

19 land seems low and 2 basics seems pretty low. Seat of the Synod is awesome. How did the deck's creators settle on this manabase? How did they settle on 1 Ancient Tomb?

Chrome Mox keeps looking questionable. Some games it's awesome, some games I wish it was a Seat of the Synod, and some games it's awkward. How did these slots get set in stone?

Is Maverick a big enough portion of the metagame to run the Humility maindeck over the third Ensnaring Bridge? With Counterbalance in the board, it's 4cc casting cost and Etutor-fetchability isn't an advantage. The third Bridge is easier on the colored mana, cheaper to cast, and can be grabbed with Tezzeret's +1.

Game one against combo seems really, really bad because of the slow clock and only Force of Will for permission. In an unknown metagame that could contain some amount of combo, are you better off running the Tezzeret version or the UW Countertop version of the Thopter deck?


There's been a ton of debate about whether you should run 2, 3, or 4 Enlightened Tutor in the classic UW builds, but there's been zero discussion about the card choices in the Tezzeret build. That's all I meant by there being a lack of discussion about the Tezzeret build.

[sdematt]

Just remember it not only stops Qasali, it stops Snapcaster, Stoneforge Mystic, Nimble Mongoose, Clique, Lavamancer, Thrun, etc.

-Matt

[Dalapin]

If you want discussion about the Tezzeret all-combo list, I'm playtesting it more tonight, but I think it feels strong.

[Deep6er]

I wasn't very clear; I meant that over the last five or ten pages there has been very little discussion about the Tezzeret lists. I was excited to see Jeff post some answers about the deck, but there's been almost no discussion about the Tezzeret list beyond wondering if the UB Planeswalker is worth losing the basics you get to run in UW (an excellent question).

Jeff's posts have been pretty helpful, but I'd love to see detailed discussion of the Tezzeret list, how they arrived at the list, choices on the slots, more detailed tournament reports, anything. Example questions I've had as I assembled the deck over the last month:

19 land seems low and 2 basics seems pretty low. Seat of the Synod is awesome. How did the deck's creators settle on this manabase? How did they settle on 1 Ancient Tomb?

Chrome Mox keeps looking questionable. Some games it's awesome, some games I wish it was a Seat of the Synod, and some games it's awkward. How did these slots get set in stone?

Is Maverick a big enough portion of the metagame to run the Humility maindeck over the third Ensnaring Bridge? With Counterbalance in the board, it's 4cc casting cost and Etutor-fetchability isn't an advantage. The third Bridge is easier on the colored mana, cheaper to cast, and can be grabbed with Tezzeret's +1.

Game one against combo seems really, really bad because of the slow clock and only Force of Will for permission. In an unknown metagame that could contain some amount of combo, are you better off running the Tezzeret version or the UW Countertop version of the Thopter deck?


There's been a ton of debate about whether you should run 2, 3, or 4 Enlightened Tutor in the classic UW builds, but there's been zero discussion about the card choices in the Tezzeret build. That's all I meant by there being a lack of discussion about the Tezzeret build.

This is probably the last time that you'll see me on The Source, but I'll give brief answers to these questions.

1). Tezzeret is worth losing the basics for. It's a rare situation where I want more basics, because the Moxen help buff my non-wastelandable mana sources. But, I want double white and double blue, and the color requirements are kind of all over the place, plus you have necessary colorless, and effectively colorless lands that you need to run, too. Basics are sweet, but I'm effectively immune to most nonbasic hate, and if people try to bring in Choke/Blood Moon/Back to Basics, that just makes me happier because those aren't cards against me. Running too many basics means that you can get wasted off of your colored sources, and it means that you can't run the sweet lands that I run now. Not worth it.

2). I settled on the manabase after a lot of tweaking and testing. It's an extremely delicate balance between enough mana sources to fuel you consistently getting to four, while also making sure that you draw enough gas to make sure you're doing something that impacts the board. The Artifact Lands should be pretty obvious as to their function, but the function of the Ancient Tomb is to allow for more explosive starts, and to allow for more Thopter production later in the game. I've ALWAYS been happy with the miser's Tomb, and probably won't cut it without a drastic shift in the metagame (which would probably make me change decks, but that's not the point). Nineteen lands isn't what you should be looking at. You should be looking at mana sources. Of which the deck has twenty four. That's more than most other non-Loam decks run. Mox Opal has only failed to ever activate in one game that I've ever played, and Chrome Mox has heinous utility in keeping Bridge active, and in giving me the color of mana that I need, because I only have three black cards in my entire seventy five, it's usually blue or white mana.

3). Humility isn't entirely for Maverick. It's for basically every deck currently being played. MOSTLY it's for Reanimator/Emrakul decks. Very simply, that card is incredible against them. The fact that it's also completely absurd against Maverick is just icing on the cake. Plus, it's one of the few ways for you to gain even more advantage out of your planeswalkers (having a 5/5 after a Humility is in play means that it's pretty difficult to lose the creature race, even without Thopters).

4). Combo is kind of awkward, sure. But there are some busted starts the deck has access to, and you have to trade something to have good match ups against a lot of the most commonly played decks. Hell, it's possible to win on turn four (with Force back up!) with this deck. I haven't had it done in a tournament yet, but it's theoretically possible.

5). Three Enlightened Tutors with the fourth in the board has been something that I've liked ever since I started doing it. You really only want one tutor in all of your preboard games, and it's often too slow if you have three, or even two. Now, I board up to four in some match ups because those decks all play into my "make the game go slower so I can play these ridiculous cards" strategy, and it makes sense there. Or when I REALLY need to see something like a Counterbalance against Storm. But three has always been the sweet spot for me, and I've tested most of the numbers (never just one).

So there we go, that's what I think about Shot in the Dark. This bullshit about calling it Tezzeret Thopters or Tezzeret Control or whatever other fucking horseshit that they try to call it notwithstanding. Whenever I've played the deck, I've always written "Shot in the Dark". So has Jeff. At least respect me enough to call the deck the name that I gave it.

[sdematt]

I do like the insight, thanks David!

Just wondering: you don't like posting on the Source?

-Matt

[Dalapin]

No lie, whenever I test Shot in the Dark (Can we at least do like a SotD thing for shortness?) the acceleration is bonkers, I absolutely love it. Artifact land, Top, Mox Opal turn 1 is just my favorite opening period. And after sideboards going Artifact Land, Top, Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, Counterbalance against Storm is also bonkers. The all in nature of the deck is simply too much fun! (Also the tuned manabase is nothing short of beautiful, I think I just have a thing for finely tuned 1-ofs)

I just don't know where to put my Moat, or how to pilot some of the hands lol.

Matt, you've got to try it, until combo is huge again and Counterbalance is warranted main I just can't have more fun than turn 2 bridge against RUG......

[sdematt]

What I see myself doing is tuning the regular list to something between the two lists (Tezzeret and Jace), eventually finding that's garbage, then moving onto Davids list. Sigh.

The thing between the two lists is major. It's a proactive deck, whereas traditional Thopters is very reactive. It has far fewer Counterspells, but it has more bombs. I'm really torn.

After looking at each decklist, basically this is what's happened:

CB --> Tezzeret
3 lands --> Mox Opal
2 Sweepers --> 2 combo pieces
2 Snare --> Chrome Mox

Obviously a bit more proactive in this version :)

-Matt

[lordofthepit]

I do like the insight, thanks David!

Just wondering: you don't like posting on the Source?

-Matt

Guess it might have to do with his signature.

[sdematt]

Are you going to GP Seattle, Lord?

-Matt

[Dalapin]

What I see myself doing is tuning the regular list to something between the two lists (Tezzeret and Jace), eventually finding that's garbage, then moving onto Davids list. Sigh.

The thing between the two lists is major. It's a proactive deck, whereas traditional Thopters is very reactive. It has far fewer Counterspells, but it has more bombs. I'm really torn.


I really agree with that lol! The way I see it, this version gives up it's very solid combo matchup to strengthen it's Aggro matchup significantly. It's a meta-game version of the U/W we normally prefer. (I think)

The U/W one is really nice because you have a chance against any deck you will ever see games 1, 2 and 3... And having a chance against anything really drew me to the deck in the first place, I hated the idea of having "bad" match-ups.

But when you look at the match-up percentages, even though they aren't awful, they aren't always that good either. e.g. In Cinci with U/W, some games I drew Bridge and Moat against Stoneblade, some games I drew 3 CBs and had them all Spell Snared. On the opposite hand, I play-tested against Tide Spiral with SitD, and game 1 was laughable at best and but very playable game 2.

Try it, when combo shows up in the meta, we'll bust out our U/W lists :-)

Just my 2 cents on the matter.
-Justin

[Dalapin]

CB --> Tezzeret
3 lands --> Mox Opal
2 Sweepers --> 2 combo pieces
2 Snare --> Chrome Mox

Obviously a bit more proactive in this version :)

-Matt
Also, in my minimal playtesting this week I found Mox Opal can be a pain to get online early without the 4 total artifact lands, just FYI :-)

[sdematt]

I was thinking a hybrid list with more real lands and 2 Mox Opal. My attempt is to give us a bit more boost, but not throw away the all-around goodness that is U/W for the meta-crusher that is Tezzeret.

I was thinking:

2 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

3 Jace, TMS
2 Tezzeret, AOB

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Top
4 Foundry
3 Sword
2 Mox Opal

4 Force
4 Swords
3 E. Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare

----

3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chill
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karmic Justice

Thoughts?

-Matt

[lordofthepit]

Are you going to GP Seattle, Lord?

-Matt

No. I actually wasn't aware that it was anytime soon, despite living in Seattle and following big Legacy events very closely. I really don't know anything about how the Pro Tour/Grand Prix structure work.

Also, I'm going in for a minor surgery so it would be bad timing. :laugh:

[Dalapin]

I was thinking a hybrid list with more real lands and 2 Mox Opal. My attempt is to give us a bit more boost, but not throw away the all-around goodness that is U/W for the meta-crusher that is Tezzeret.

I was thinking:

2 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

3 Jace, TMS
2 Tezzeret, AOB

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Top
4 Foundry
3 Sword
2 Mox Opal

4 Force
4 Swords
3 E. Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare

----

3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chill
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karmic Justice

Thoughts?

-Matt

I like the 21 lands because the mulligans with SitD can be harsh when you get 1-landers, that said I'm bad at deck building so get give us your thoughts when you get some play testing in :-).

Also, if you want the counter spells main deck to support the reactive play style have we considered SP over Snare main?

-Justin

[sdematt]

Snare hits many things that Pierce doesn't, is the problem. Qasali (but Pierce would hit GSZ-->Qasali), SFM, Tarmogoyf (it's relevant enough:cool:), Price of Progress, Snapcaster, Stony Silence (but Pierce would get this as well), Dark Confidant, etc.

Ideally, I'd have both. But, I don't live in magical Candyland where I get to play all the cards. :tongue:

Edit: Lord, clear your inbox. It's full.

-Matt

[anwei]

CT Thopters just placed 15th at SCG Memphis (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44251).
Cursed Scroll is some nice tech - that might be old news, but tutor-able, recurring removal seems really good. It also functions well with the ET card disadvantage (like SDT, E Bridge).

Here's the list:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
1 Moat

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifact Lands
1 Seat of the Synod

Basic Lands
6 Island
2 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plateau
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Serenity
2 Pyroblast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[sdematt]

Someone running my-ish list. Huzzah!

-Matt

[Dalapin]

Someone running my-ish list. Huzzah!

-Matt

I saw that and thought you'd be pleased :-P
-Justin

[GGoober]

No beta duals in that list though. So kinda sdematt-ish :P

Is both cage + needle MD really neccesary as ETutor targets? Otherwise I like the list quite a bit.

[sdematt]

I wouldn't play Cage and Needle MD, personally.

-Matt

[Hanni]

Could be a local meta decision.

[Storming_Dude]

Just a short note:

I played on a local small tournament and placed 1st (2-0-1, 5-1) with the list to pages ago.

I played against Vampire Aggro (2-0 ThopterCombo > Vampires), Reanimator (Ensnaring Bridge > Reanimator) and BUG Tempo (Draw, have to say it is a difficult MU).

The deck performed very well, I'll definitely continue to test this build.

[somethingdotdotdot]

It seems like some of the counterbalance lists have shifted their curves a bit. The top 16 list is only running 7x 2cc spells and 2x 3cc for counterbalance. I assume this is due to the fact that counterbalance is just too slow for countering stoneforge mystics and the fact counterbalance is highly unlikely to resolve due to the prevalence of spell snare? However, it seems like the deck could try and use a couple more 3cc spells to hit geist/knight later on in the game.

Either way, it seems like the counterbalance strategy is being neglected to something of a side-plan to be used versus tempo/combo. I guess I'm asking if you guys even bother trying to resolve a counterbalance versus maverick anymore. My current list runs about 6x cc3 spells so it may be better suited to balance out geists/kotr's.

[lordofthepit]

Has anyone that tried Gearhart's list (Jeff, or David if he has Internet access) been frustrated with only 14 other blue spells to support 4 Force of Wills, along with 19 total lands? Granted, there are 5 Moxes, but 2 of them are Chrome Moxes, and between your 19 lands and 14 colorless artifacts, there are only 27 spells to pitch. God forbid if one of them is a blue spell.

I'm sure the final decklist was arrived at through a lot of testing, and granted, this list is capable of some absolutely absurd starts. But it's also very capable of crapping on itself.

I'm tempted to shave a Swords to Plowshares or two since this deck is already very strong against aggro.

[salvor]

Currently playing with next list:

Artifacts:
1 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Opal
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Engineered Explosives


Enchantements:
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance
1 Karmic Justice

Instants:
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands:
1 Ancient Den
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Aegis of Honor
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Thopter Foundry
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek
SB: 1 Grafdiggers cage

It's basically David's list which trades some combopieces(sword+thopter) for maindeck balance(helps vs ant and tempo a lot and is never dead). I've also cut some manasources(mox+opal, dislike multiple moxes in hand and believe we have enough card disadvantage with tutors+forces) for maindeck karmic justice(wastelands are too scary) and explosives. Mulliganing becomes harder, but with top you usually can find mana you need (totally 22 manasources). Possibly I should replace land with aditional chrome mox.

[Oiolosse]

I have been toying around with a black splash for Lim Duls Vault and so far i love it. I just assembled the deck with just a few proxies and i am having a blast. Has anyone else tried LDV? It's basically a counterspell with top in play. It finds combo pieces, duh, but most interestingly, it finds control cards as well. Often times i need a STP or Vindicate. I usually see piles with control cards and combo pieces.

I just dont know how much i like weakening my mana base for it. Thoughts and criticism would be appreciated. F

[sdematt]

What's your list? We could better see what's happening if we can see what you're running.

-Matt

[Oiolosse]

What's your list? We could better see what's happening if we can see what you're running.

-Matt

You got it!



4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Vindicate
1 Carnival of Souls
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Diabolic Edict

Land

1 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats



Motivation

I have been a super lurker of CounterTop Superfriends, CounterTop Thopters and Esperblade (GO ESPER!). I own 4 Tundras, 2 Scrubland, 2 Underground Seas, some of the fetches and a good chunk of the cards. I thought, why not sleeve up one of these and see how it goes. Since I have the mana base for all of them I could make a meta call and go either way before any tourney. I don't quite own everything (some fetches and 2 Jace's) but I figured that if I liked how it played I would just save up a bit and purchase what I need.

I LOVE IT.

The motivation for black is a bit bullshit. I swore I owned more than 2 Enlightened Tutor's but I don't. Even though they are less than 10 bucks I figured I would try Lim-Dul's Vault since I own a playset.

I LOVE THEM.

The fact that they're instant really makes them playable. I can in response LDV and with counterbalance in play counter pretty much anything up to 5 CMC. Without CB but with Top in play I can find FoW and activate Top to Force if need be. Or without either I can always LDV and then brainstorm into Force. This deck has been favorable against TES, the only combo deck I have had a chance to playtest against. My friend isn't the best with it but I still count it as favorable.

It finds combo pieces of course. That's why I only run 2 Foundrys and 1 Sword. With 2 Etutor, 4 Brainstorms, 3 Tops and 3 LDV I find it fine enough.

------

If I were to drop black I would add 1 more Etutor, 1 more Jace and 1 more Top. I would fit in more countermagic as well. Either Counterspell or Spellsnare.

-------

Carnival of Souls. I've only played about 10 games with it and it may be win more but it sure is fun. I've never seen anyone run it and as a 1 of I haven't (yet) had awkward mulligan decisions. Thoughts?

Diabolic Edict has been good, but not great. It may turn into counterspell. And if Carnival of Souls doesn't work out then it will turn into Counterspell as well; in which case I may drop black altogether, not sure yet.

Vindicate - duh. Great card.


I have yet to try Superfriends. I want to playtest this more first. Like I said, so far I love the way it plays. Although I feel like I need more countermagic.

Please critique the list and you won't hurt my feelings so feel free to cut into my decisions.

Thanks!

[Vandalize]

Carnival of Souls. I've only played about 10 games with it and it may be win more but it sure is fun. I've never seen anyone run it and as a 1 of I haven't (yet) had awkward mulligan decisions. Thoughts?

Totally win-more. But that's so funny. Making infinite tokens in the turn you can assemble the combo is indeed a nice tech for games you can't manage to drop Humility/Moat/Bridge.

[albertomp1985]

Regards

I play this deck list:

MAIN:

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Intuition
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Life from the loam
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Thopter foundry
2 Sword of the meek
1 Vedalken shackles
1 Engineered explosives
4 Flooded strand
2 Misty rainforest
2 Scalding tarn
5 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Tropical island
2 Volcanic island
1 Maze of ith
1 Academy ruins
1 Dust bowl

SIDE:

3 Tormod's crypt
3 Ensnaring bridge
3 Krosan grip
3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout

[Teknique]

Welcome albertomp. I'm curious to what extent you've played your list and could highlight why you've chosen it over more common builds. It's interesting but it has what seem to be a few major flaws, at least on paper.

How do you not just die to aggro? You have no lock pieces (bridge/moat/humility), your only maindeck sweeper is EE, which is a fine card, but is very slow to reuse. Some number of bridges should be in the main, with perhaps a third in the side, but they certainly shouldn't all start out.

Your only tutor is intuition which seems pretty underwhelming. You can't play it until turn 3 (and then can't play the actual card until t4), so you sit there durdling around hoping to draw whatever you're looking for off only top/brainstorm. Enlightened tutor is so good in these decks, especially when you have bridges to work with the 'disadvantage'. Also, to have a chance against something like burn you need to mull until you start with top/cb, and 2 blue lands, otherwise you die before you can search for the second half. That's a lot to bank on drawing and your sb doesn't help you out in that match at all.

Thopter/Sword seems to be your only win condition in this deck, which unfortunately is easily blown out a surgical/extirpate/well timed grave hate. Sure, you have Jace, but with only 2, no protection, and no guaranteed way to get CB/Top online by turn 3, he's difficult to stick.

Shackles is a fine card that helps here and there, but again you have no way to find it when/if you need it. And the thing its best for today is grabbing delvers, sometimes goyfs. Unfortunately, you're probably too close to dead by the time you drop shackles and can activate against RUx Delver with this list.

The loam package, again, in general is too slow when you don't have protection or the board locked down. And maze of ith is cute, but tutoring then loaming for it, is not a good plan when this deck needs the card very early. And getting maze early is a bad plan itself because this deck needs mana, which maze does not provide.

Thanks for the input and your list, I hope this post doesn't come across in a bad light.

[AngryTroll]

I'm tempted to try a single Entomb over the third Sword of the Meek in the Tezzeret Thopter builds (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2012-01-08&end_date=2012-04-01&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=tezzeret%2C+agent+of+bolas&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=thopter+foundry).

Entomb means you need black mana and some other artifact (probably a Mox, land, or a spare Divining Top) to start producing Thopters, but Entomb shuffles (Brainstorm, Top, and Jace) and is easier to cast than the Sword.

Getting Entomb countered is worse than getting Sword countered, but it's also easier to cast. Is the added shuffle worth the extra artifact requirement?

[Oiolosse]

I'm tempted to try a single Entomb over the third Sword of the Meek in the Tezzeret Thopter builds (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2012-01-08&end_date=2012-04-01&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=tezzeret%2C+agent+of+bolas&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=thopter+foundry).

Entomb means you need black mana and some other artifact (probably a Mox, land, or a spare Divining Top) to start producing Thopters, but Entomb shuffles (Brainstorm, Top, and Jace) and is easier to cast than the Sword.

Getting Entomb countered is worse than getting Sword countered, but it's also easier to cast. Is the added shuffle worth the extra artifact requirement?

I think the fact that you're playing a Tezzeret build secures you having an extra artifact in play. However, I don't think banking on another artifact being in play, that you probably need in the first place, is the best idea. Entomb will only find the Sword, or EE if you run it.

Actually, looking at the list, there is not a whole lot there I would be willing to sacrifice. In my recent playtesting (non-Tezzeret), I've found that Countertop Thopters likes about 3-4 land pretty consistently and having to sacrifice one of them or a Mox is unappealing.

[sdematt]

Wanted to share my updated list:

1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Moat
1 Cursed Totem

--BOARD--

1 Karmic Justice
1 Chill
1 Warmth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Virtue's Ruin/Wrath of God
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
1 Phyrexian Metamorph


-Matt

[Waikiki]

That list looks pretty tight. Could you share some boardplans against the tiermatchups and how you think your chances are against them (apologies if this has allready been mentionned)

[sdematt]

Sure, I'll definitely do that. I've got a paper that's due, so I'll try to whiz through that and post here. Expect my answer Wai either today or tomorrow.

Good to see you around, haven't seen you in a while :)

-Matt

[sdematt]

i want to preface my entire statement with I haven't ground out hundreds of games with this list, I've only done minor testing against Maverick, Delver, and Stoneblade. I'd love to test more, but school takes up a lot of my time.

My main aim with my build was just to sit and look back at the format. Maverick is everywhere, and it's probably our worst matchup, as bad as it sounds. At least, in theory. Scavenging Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Qasali, and Aven Mindcensor all do pretty good work on us. But, we have access to basically everything. So, considering everything is available, what do we choose?

1) Right now, activated abilities of creatures are the tits, especially against us. Ooze and Qasali especially. Shutting them off is key.

2) ETB triggers are also huge. Enter SFM and Snapcaster. We don't want those.

3) Knight is a big creature. We need to have it not attack us, and if possible, not Wastelock us.

4) Burn is a deck/RUG Delver is a deck, and it's fast.

5) Life gain is good.


So, with those major points out of the way, we can see that Humility is good, Ensnaring Bridge is good, Cursed Totem is good, EE is good (clearing away 1 drops), and the Thopter combo, once active, trumps most everything else (particularly awesome against Stoneblade).

My move from Black to Red was pushed by Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin, essentially. Spell Pierce gives us enough value that we don't "need" REB, and Blood Moon is good, but Back to Basics screws over more decks (they can fetch basics, and could still run well off of 2 basics and mountain). Stoneblade can't function as a deck off of it's 1-3 basic lands. At that point, it's awful unless it's already winning. Maverick doesn't suffer the same problem, but once you turn off manadorks, Back to Basics looks better. RUG Delver runs no basics, so it's good. Keeping them tapped out and off of Ancient Grudge/Grip is good.

One thing I really liked from the Tezzeret list was the Ancient Tomb. So many times I've been a turn behind, or just wanted the extra mana. We're a very colour intensive and 3-4 drop intensive deck. Because of this, 1-2 Ancient Tomb are pretty good. I've been really liking it, even as a 1-of.

Since most of the maindeck stuff is explanatory, I'll go over the sideboard.

Engineered Explosives: You need something against Delvers and Mongeese. 2 EE after board makes your matchup at least a bit better. It helps you hold off the swarm until you lock.

Chill: Burn decks suck, Goblins can suck, Lightning Bolt can kill you. Slowing this down is good. The reason why this isn't 2 Warmth? Making Ancient Grudge cost more, making Goblins cost more (life could end up being irrelevant), and making Bolt cost more. Eating up their mana is a good thing. Also helps slow down Vortex, which Warmth gets screwed over by.

Warmth: Same as above, by more critical against Burn than the other incidentals.

Spell Pierce: Your anti-combo, anti-control, anti-GSZ "tech." Basically, it replaces Force post-board against Maverick (FoW is awful there), or ups your counterspells against decks that play big things, or combo.

Phyrexian Metamorph: Your anti-Reanimator, copy target troublesome legend, or copy good creature tech. Also good in the SFM mirror, so you can copy SFM and tutor for the Sword of the Meek.

Pithing Needle: Ooze, Qasali, Knight, Jace, Elspeth, Deed, etc.

Grafdigger's Cage: Hate against Dredge.

Tormod's Crypt: Different Dredge hate, can also nuke for Knight, etc.

Virtue's Ruin: Essentially Wrath of God against Maverick. Could be Perish, but hits Thalia and Mother of Runes. Wrath is also fine, but why get screwed over by Gaddock Teeg more is the advice Ruckus gave me.

Elspeth, Knight Errant: Anti-control card. Bring it in where you need guys, or just need to work to make your stuff indestructible. I bring it in against Stoneblade, Junk, Deed.deck, etc.

Karmic Justice: Against Qasali, Wasteland, Grip, Grudge, Vindicate, DEED etc.

Back to Basics: The most flexible slot, comes in against RUG, Stoneblade, or anything running tons of non-basics. Could be another Cursed Totem if need be.

Dread of Night: Great against MoM, Thalia, and especially Spirit tokens. SFM can no longer get Jitte counters as well.

As for actual sideboarding, I haven't played enough games to get a consistent flow down, but I'll try to test more when I can.



-Matt

[Waikiki]

hmm Will have to test out that matchup indeed. I thought we could manage that matchup but seems its harder then I thought. Thnx for the quick reply !

[Koby]

Matt - you're dead wrong about Warmth. It's a shit spell.

Play COP:Red.

[sdematt]

You really think so? Why?

-Matt

[Koby]

Because all the burn decks are already prepared for life gain elements by running Vortex. Warmth is cancelled by it, while COP:Red just means you have a :1: insurance plan against it.

[sdematt]

True, you can just gank the damage with COP. I swear you're making me buy Korean versions of all the tech, then telling me not to use it :P

-Matt

[AngryTroll]

I went 4-1-1 with Tezzeret Thopter over the weekend, beating Bant, Burn, Dredge, and White Stax and losing 0-2 to Maverick. I beat High Tide in the Top 8 and then lost 0-2 again to Maverick, then lost to the Burn player I beat in the Swiss for 4th out of 35.

I resolved a Humility and an Ensnaring Bridge against Maverick in our first game, but he surprised me by fetching Taigas and burning me out. In game two he kept me off of double white for Humility and off of black for Perish with Pridemages, Wastelands, and Knights.

I lost 0-2 to the same Maverick player in the Top 8 because multiple Pridemages and Green Sun's Zeniths is really hard to beat with the artifact-heavy Tezzeret version. In game two, he had access to Stony Silence and Choke, which really outclassed my two Perishes. It is not an easy matchup.

[sdematt]

That's why I don't like the clunky artifact version, too many do-nothings, not enough basics and good-stuff. Tezzeret's fine, but if it allowed you to get 1 card, and not just one artifact, it'd be fine.

So far, my list has been going decently well. Cursed Totem is a fucking blow-out against Maverick.

-Matt

[lemariont]

Hi guys.

No new ideas for the deck???
Someone placed second in Italy with two snapcasters md. What do you think about???

Im already with the Morgothian list from four months ago.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7273&iddeck=52934

Do you suggest any changes to the deck for the actual meta???

And what do you think for the new blue miracle???

[sdematt]

I think the blue miracle card is awful unless you're playing 2 just for the sake of maybe getting an extra turn late in the game. It could be useful, but we're already so tight it's unbelievable.

RE: Snapcasters, I think they're fine; it's essentially replacing Enlightened tutor #3 and another bomb-slot. I think it's fine, but personally, I'm more interested in playing the tutor and the bomb, even though there is more selection with Snapcaster itself.

My current list is:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
2 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

--BOARD--

2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Back to Basics/Chill
1 Karmic Justice

-Matt

[Oiolosse]

Love the solid mana base, lots of islands. This begs me to ask why you aren't running Back to Basics in the 75. I love that card and it can just win.

2 Cursed Totem? I'd rather play another lock piece, a miser counterspell or another counterbalance. Did that replace your O-ring?

[sdematt]

2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Back to Basics/Chill
1 Karmic Justice

Yep, running it.

@ 2 Cursed Totems

Shuts down your main enemies: Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, and to a lesser extent: Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Sharpshooter, etc.

Sure, it could be a Moat or something, but Cursed Totem is SO backbreaking you want more chances to get it. I guess you could move one to the board and bring the Ring back in, or a Moat/lockpiece.

-Matt

[TkDodo]

I think the blue miracle card is awful unless you're playing 2 just for the sake of maybe getting an extra turn late in the game. It could be useful, but we're already so tight it's unbelievable.

RE: Snapcasters, I think they're fine; it's essentially replacing Enlightened tutor #3 and another bomb-slot. I think it's fine, but personally, I'm more interested in playing the tutor and the bomb, even though there is more selection with Snapcaster itself.

My current list is:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
2 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

--BOARD--

2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Back to Basics/Chill
1 Karmic Justice

-Matt

Hi Matt,

I really really like your list. I was looking to get something going with CB-Thopters, so I started right away with your list.
Especially the mana base looks very solid. My only changes were removing the Karakas for another fetch, as I don't think the nonbasic-plains is worth the slot without playing Clique yourself, just to randomly screw Reanimator from time to time. Also, 7 fetches in on the low side these days.
I agree that Ancient Tomb is very good, better than other accelerants like Chrome Mox or the like. Not producing colored mana was never an issue for me, and I was always happy to see it.

I also really like Cursed Totem, but not maindeck. It just doesn't do enough against anything that's not Maverick. Against the other DTB (RUG Tempo, BladeControl, Sneak&Show, Dredge, ANT), I think it doesn't do anything.
I moved them to the board and added 1 SFM and 1 Batterskull for it. Batterskull gives you another angle of attack against decks that are prepared for the Thopters Combo, especially postboard when you get GY-hated. SFM can tutor up Sword of the Meek, so it should never be really dead. On a side note, with Batterskull, you can counter FoW with a CB and an Enlightened Tutor, which can be relevant from time to time.

I also added a couple of Snapcasters, since I think they are really good getting back our conditional counters (especially Spell Pierce, I almost want more Pierces in the main!), and flashing back Enlightened Tutors can be so back-breaking.

What I also noticed was that Jace was not that impressive in this deck as he was in others. I think that is because we rarely get to a completely empty board by T4 or 5, since we will be busy either getting the CB/Top lock, a bomb to handle their stuff or the Thopters Combo online, we don't have the time/capacity to counter/handle everything they do on the spot. Compared to U/W Blade, Jace is amazing because they can mostly just Snare/CSpell/StoP everything you do, repeat it with Snapcaster, Clique you EOT and then drop Jace on an empty board or protected by a creature (Snapcaster, Clique, or of course Lingering Souls Tokens). I however found myself frequently in spots where I was theoretically able to drop Jace, but it wouldn't have netted me more than a Brainstorm, which seems underwhelming for 4 mana and a turn. He's still Jace, so I just tried swapping one with an Elspeth. She just helps stabilizing the board a lot better than Jace.

So here is my current list. The SB is still a mess, I'm just trying to figure out how to beat Maverick (this seems to be a crux with every U/W list) without having too many narrow things in the board so that you can't board out your creature hate against combo because you have nothing to bring in ;)


4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Batterskull

SB:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Plague
2 Cursed Totem
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Meekstone

[JJ-JKidd]

Drew Levin suggested this in premium:

U/W Enlightened Tutor Counterbalance
Featured by Drew Levin on 2012-04-22 (Legacy)

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Meekstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares


Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
8 Island
1 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

[xfxf]

The funny things is he recommends a transformational sideboard with Dark Confidants but I don't see any black mana sources in the list. An he goes on about the importance of being Wasteland resistant and the adds a third color out of the blue.

[vercadium]

The funny things is he recommends a transformational sideboard with Dark Confidants but I don't see any black mana sources in the list. An he goes on about the importance of being Wasteland resistant and the adds a third color out of the blue.

Read the full article. He talks about how the Volcanic Island is present to allow Engineered Explosives @ 3 and REB, then states it can be swapped for an Underground sea to allow for a transformational sideboard. This then allows you to run Dark Confidant. I wouldn't call a single land splash to support 1 card "adding a third colour out of the Blue". The deck is already extremely resilient to Wasteland because of the 9 basic lands.

[DrHealex]

Drew Levin's list appears pretty bad, I would find it hard to believe that he even played with that list once.
The lists from sdematt and tkdojo appear tested andd well thought out, as opposed to something slapped together to make a premium deadline or something. I feel sorry for the sheep that might end up playing it.

Perhaps there is something to that whole "Disregard Levin" saying...

[sdematt]

I like the thought behind Drew Levin's article, but not the result. He's definitely a good player and knows the format, and he's doing some brainstorming, and these are his notes, so to speak. He hasn't been working on the deck for years like we have, but he's trying. We can definitely try some of these ideas and run with that.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Ah, but, Meekstone is also hand size independent, allowing you to not nut yourself with cards so creatures can't attack you. Hm.

Huge downside: Jitte + tokens, tokens in general, or they alpha-strike you in one go. Therefore, I think a nice Venn diagram-effect of gumming up the board is good.

-Matt

[Koby]

I like Meekstone, but I think three is far too many. One or two is fine, and when used with Trinket Mage (to pad the 3 drops) it's use is improved. I would still run Ensnaring Bridge too, to help out the 3 spot in the deck. Matt and I discussed the use of Trinket Mage before, and I think it warrants another look at its inclusion.

[csy]

I want meekstone so bad in a control build. I really like the way counterThop is looking lately, and Im gonna have to start playing full time in round soon I think... stupid reanimator getting bad...

[Maëlig]

1 Arid Mesa





1 Arid Mesa


Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

[dillonkbase]

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

It really depends on your sideboard and if you are trying to find anything other than plains/island. This slot can either find volcanic or sea, and so really it depends on the sb to see which is more important.

[Maëlig]

It really depends on your sideboard and if you are trying to find anything other than plains/island. This slot can either find volcanic or sea, and so really it depends on the sb to see which is more important.
I was talking about TkDodo and Matt's last lists, with the black splash and no red.

[TkDodo]

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


Totally, thanks for pointing that out. Must have been a leftover from my red-splash, which I usually have. The difference is minor, but Marsh Flats is strictly better in this case, so there is no way Arid Mesa is correct.



Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

Yes, Terminus looks promising. I think decks with Tops are the best option to try out Miracles, because we have the most library manipulation and the option to float it on the top as long as needed and the possibility to instant-miracle it with a top activision.
It does, however, not fit the CB curve, and gets shut of by Teeg (in comparison to Perish). I will probably test it in the board additionally to Perish.

I wanted to have a singleton Vindicate in the main. I don't think it's a sb card though. The sideboard can and should be narrow hate/removal, not catch-alls. It fills the 3-slot, which is imporant, because we really don't have many threes. That's also the issue I have with Snapcaster Mage. Yes, its a very powerful card, but it's actually a three-drop with CMC 2. Adding more threes might lead to a clunky deck.
For the list of cards you want to get rid of you provided, I think more Spell Pierce is better. Take Choke for example. They can rarely afford to play around Spell Pierce. Yes, you have to leave mana open, but I'm positive that you mostly cannot recover if you tap out T3/T4 and they choke you, even if you have Vindicate in hand. Sure, you can have lands that untap, but all the while where you are trying to handle Choke, you are getting beaten by Knight and the like. So I think Spell Piercing the aforementioned Spells is a better approach than Vindicating them. Oh and it also doesn't cost you a turn, and they don't get a PW-activision out of it. That's the main reason why I want the full set of Pierces againt Maverick postboard for instance.

[Maëlig]

I wanted to have a singleton Vindicate in the main. I don't think it's a sb card though. The sideboard can and should be narrow hate/removal, not catch-alls. It fills the 3-slot, which is imporant, because we really don't have many threes. That's also the issue I have with Snapcaster Mage. Yes, its a very powerful card, but it's actually a three-drop with CMC 2. Adding more threes might lead to a clunky deck.
For the list of cards you want to get rid of you provided, I think more Spell Pierce is better. Take Choke for example. They can rarely afford to play around Spell Pierce. Yes, you have to leave mana open, but I'm positive that you mostly cannot recover if you tap out T3/T4 and they choke you, even if you have Vindicate in hand. Sure, you can have lands that untap, but all the while where you are trying to handle Choke, you are getting beaten by Knight and the like. So I think Spell Piercing the aforementioned Spells is a better approach than Vindicating them. Oh and it also doesn't cost you a turn, and they don't get a PW-activision out of it. That's the main reason why I want the full set of Pierces againt Maverick postboard for instance.

OK that makes sense, I wasn't suggesting replacing spell pierce for it though. I play 3 pierce and 3 vindicate in my 75. It's nice to have multiple answers to the most problematic cards, and a way to deal with them once they hit the board too (this is especially important vs an early chalice for instance, which we can't always counter). Besides, playing stony silence (for instance) with 2 extra mana isn't so hard in the mid/late-game, and I still want to have an answer to that.

[obituary 95]

here is the list I am currently running, I would like some criticism of the list if possible

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Thopter Foundry
9 Island
3 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Terminus
1 Misty Rainforest

[Koby]

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


This makes a ton of sense. *brainfart* Good catch.

[sdematt]

I'm pretty sure we all had a collective brainfart. Sorry.

I'm thinking the real question is, how many Trinket Mages? Not fetching Thopter combo itself is my only beef with Mage, otherwise I could warrant running more.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Koby]

I'm pretty sure we all had a collective brainfart. Sorry.

I'm thinking the real question is, how many Trinket Mages? Not fetching Thopter combo itself is my only beef with Mage, otherwise I could warrant running more.

Thoughts?

-Matt

I'm slating 1 right now. It's pretty slow truth be told, but getting EE/Top/Meekstone is kind of clutch.

[sdematt]

I agree, and postboard, you can grab Crypt, Cage, Needle, or more EE or something.

-Matt

[sdematt]

So just some verbal diarrhea here, but has anyone EVER tried Gideon Jura? I was randomly looking through someone's trades and saw this guy again.

Now, first off, why even bring him up?

1) It mucks tapped creatures. This is cool, especially if you need to knock out a Knight.

2) He's a 6/6 attacker that can do something after you've Wrathed up the board.

3) He makes creatures attack him instead of you. If you've got other lockpieces up, he Forces the few attackers to attack him instead of your Jace/you.

With Bridge, big things can't attack you, and the little things mean they're maybe pecking him to death (ex. he'll take a hit from all their Noble Hierarchs and Qasali instead of allowing the Qasali to go under the Bridge and get Exalted, assuming they have another creature attacking as well).

With Meekstone, he forces those creatures to attack him, then they don't untap, causing them to never deal damage to you once before they become useless. Plus, then you muck tapped things after you've made them attack since they won't untap under Meekstone.

He'll untap after Meekstone since he won't be a creature during the upkeep, and you might be able to pound through for 6.


Thoughts?

-Matt

[Oiolosse]

I've always like the card but you want more wrath or jace me thinks.

[lemariont]

I think that at 5 CMC, there are best cards, like Tezzeret the seeker or Future Sight.

Tezzeret can take and directly in play, any artifact. Im thinking on try one for ona jace....

[sdematt]

So right now, I'm actually trying something quite drastically different.

Throughout my playtesting against RUG, Maverick and the like, I've never liked Force of Will, especially in this deck. Why? 2-for-1'ing yourself with this deck seems to be especially awful, and Force has been terribly inconsistent.

We're running anywhere from 18-21 blue cards, which is technically fine. However, the blue cards that you are pitching here are either Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Thopter Foundry, Jace, or Spell Snare/Counterspell/Pierce if you're playing them. None of those except maybe Snare/Pierce are things you actively want to throw away, they're things that either, a) Win the game, b) Find things to win the game.

Many times, I've sat there without the Force, Force and no blue card, and fewer times have I had Force with a blue card that was irrelevant to pitch at the time.

I'm not saying I don't like the safety and security of having a counterspell when I'm tapped out, and if you're meta has much combo, then Force may be a necessity.

However, here we're wanting not to gain tempo advantage and beat down like RUG, we're all about the long term. Getting rid of our Counterbalance to take out Tarmogoyf isn't necessarily the play.

My friend played Thopters against my Maverick (I ran Maverick since I didn't want any bias). With the configuration as we tested, Snares and other counters were fine, and not pitching key cards was actually BETTER. Maverick is the nightmare matchup for this deck: Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Noble Hierarch (Exalted and 0/1), Qasali Pridemage, Aven Mindcensor, Scavenging Ooze, but it was fine.

We're already boarding out Force a bunch anyway, so now, I'm just preboarding. I'm not saying don't run Counterspells, I'm just saying Force stripping your hand of win conditions may not necessarily be the play at the moment, considering how many other answers we have.

So, I cut my 4 Forces initially down to 3 Forces and replaced the Force #4 with a Counterspell (along with 3 Snares). At 3 Forces, the deck could also be fine to play, but instead, I tried again. I cut 3 Forces for 2 Mana Leak and 1 Open Slot. I tested secret tech in the open slot, but didn't come up so I won't both reporting it, but just talking generally.

Perhaps going the way of Nic Fit is better in this meta. Instead of trying to out-counter and out-do, I think the answer is just to go bigger. We're a control deck, but if we run against Esperblade, they have plenty of answers. I think the trump to their control is for us just to go bigger. Don't try to match counterspells, just play more bombs that THEY have to answer. Be the proactive control deck, if that makes sense. I was testing a card that's great in the Esperblade match, but again, until I get solid relevant proof, I don't want to talk about it, since it sounds stupid (not stupid good, it literally sounds awful).

For reference:

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

3 Counterbalance
3 Top

3 Jace

2 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Open

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Meekstone (so far, not too bad, but I wouldn't want 3)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring

Tentative Board:

1 Cursed Totem
3 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
2 Dread of Night
1 Perish
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Perish
2 Open


Thoughts?

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

I won't be able to sleep now thinking about "the tech".

I'm a tad reluctant to cut FoW, since it was the first Legacy card I ever bought. However, I can't help but feel the "go bigger" is actually the correct route.

Whenever I won a game with this deck, I wasn't because I was Fowing something, but rather I stuck a Bridge and stopped the table.

The one bad thing is that we loose Choke insurance, plus we're unable to defend our stuff so effectively.

I'd look into fitting a Moat in the SB, maybe a second Bridge too (it was always one of the best cards available). 2nd Ensnaring Bridge could also be MD, by cuting a Leak, since we have less counterspells now...

[Maëlig]

(Sorry, nothing to do with the debate on FoW-less builds)

I'm mostly working on "classic" (thopter-less) UW CB-top decks at the moment, but I keep an eye on this thread for new ideas. This got me thinking : in a general sense, I have the feeling that CB thopter is stronger (compared to other CB decks) g1 thanks to the raw power of the combo and its "pre-SB" configuration (ET --> humility pretty much kills maverick for instance). On the other hand, it has a much harder time g2 & 3 once people side in artifact and GY hate, making it difficult to get the combo working. Would you agree with this assessment? Since there isn't such a big difference between the lists, I thought it might be worth considering a transformational SB. The idea would be to cut all the artifacts (except top) and humility to replace them with entreat the angels and a combination of spell pierce (or possibly CS to better fit the CB curve?) and path to exile. This way you dodge most of the hate. Here's a sample list (untested) :

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Terminus

4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage (debatable, might kick it to the SB)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce (or 2 CS / 1 pierce ?)
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Entreat the Angels

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Cursed Totem
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura of Silence


Thoughts?

[Justin]

Not that I've tested it, but Terminus does not seem right in this deck. The deck already has plenty of ways to shut down creatures with Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and Humility. I would up your count of Enlightened Tutor to help fetch your silver bullets and combo pieces.

[Maëlig]

Well, it's obviously a compromise between the MD and SB configuration (in the latter we don't have access to the silver bullets you mentionned, so we need some other kind of protection), so I want terminus in my 75. Your point is valid though, I might try moving them to the SB for the 3rd ET and a pierce in these MD slots.

[Syaoran]

After lots and lots of testing, I have come to the conclusion:

Temporal mastery is broken as @#%$^&.

Lets assume you draw it early: If you have a spare land in hand, boom. 1U: You play play an extra land this turn. Draw a card. Untap all your lands.

Sounds pretty damn good, no?

Mid game: 1U: Drop a bunch of stuff onto the board, while being able to keep mana open to counter your opponents next move. In other words, develop a strong board position.

Late game: 1U: Gain a massive advantage. Possibly win the game.


Notes: Early game, you do NOT want to chain them. It ends horribly getting you nowhere. If you have a bunch of lands to drop, why did you keep the hand?

Don't run more than 3. 3 is the right number I believe, as it's mostly utility. I've never flipped over a temporal when I wanted something to counter with counterbalance.

Current list:


// Lands
10 Island (3)
2 Plains (3)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
2 Oblivion Rings
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Counterspell
1 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Temporal Mastery
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

Kinda heavy on the creature hate- it's my meta.

Specific notes:

Yes, I have 61 cards. I'm personally of the belief in this type of card selection deck, along with the math behind drawing, that you can get away with one extra card.

With the number of brainstorms, tops, jace, etc. miracles become SO GOOD. I'm considering cutting one swords for another terminus.

I probably should get a better clock in place.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm pretty sure you meant to post this in the UWx Countertop Walker thread.

[Shaka1333]

I'm very interested by this deck right now. I think Terminus really pushes it over the top but i'm kind of worry about your Combo matchup especially Sneak and Show as you have probably the slowest clock of the format.

Has anyone tested against this deck ?

[TkDodo]

I'm very interested by this deck right now. I think Terminus really pushes it over the top but i'm kind of worry about your Combo matchup especially Sneak and Show as you have probably the slowest clock of the format.

Has anyone tested against this deck ?

I did, in fact, test this matchup ad nauseam. With Counterbalance, you generally shouldn't be worried about Storm combo. It definitely is the best matchup there is.
Sneak & Show is somewhat different, as a resolved Counterbalance is still good, but not backbreaking. However, preboard, they can't beat Bridge or Humility, so if you can E.Tutor for them early, do so. It invalidates 50% of their enablers on the spot, namely Show and Tell. If you can cast it with double-backup, also, go for it. They have literally no outs against it. Your clock doesn't matter. In fact, I boarded the Thopter combo out against them, since they are the better combo deck. They will have between 2-4 bounce spells postboard, so I bring in more permanents that matter. Needle for Sneak Attack. Canonist in general: they can't easily counter him, since they rely heavily on Spell Pierce and REB. Once he sticks, all their counters are dead (given that you have a counter yourself). And he is a clock by himself. They inflict enough damage to themselves. Bring O-Ring if you have, more Spell Pierces, and maybe some Extractions (they are always fine against combo, but against Inutition in particular).

Preboard, it all depends how fast they are. I think the matchup is slightly in their favor, as we have dead cards (StoP, EE and stuff), and they have more counters than we do. Postboard, they will be a lot slower, giving you time to stick a bomb, so it should be in our favor. Just don't get blown-out by blood moon. I don't think they should board it against us, since we have so many basics, but just in case, you still have to fetch for them ;)

Hope that helps

[Shaka1333]

I wanted to send you a private message TkDodo but unfortunately you desactivated this option.

Anyway, thank you very much for your answer.
I have been liking a lot all of your posts so far and i'm very pleased that you spent some time to answer me.
We have a big tournament in France in 10 days (Bazaar of Moxen 6) and i will very likely play this kind of deck.
I don't know where you are from but european metagame is a bit different than SCG Open metagame : Maverick, Rug and Stoneblade are also the big three decks but there are a lot more combo decks here.

Here is my decklist right now :

Lands (23)
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge mystic

// Spells
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Batterskull

// Sideboard
1 Terminus
2 Disenchant
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterbalance
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 not determined slots : EE, Meddling Mage, Relic etc...

I didn't have the time to test Enlightned Tutor yet.
The deck have been performing very well right now (crushing Maverick with Terminus (Turn 5, Terminus + Jace is usually game) and Esper Stoneblade with Meek + Thopter, and beating RUG with Terminus and Counterbalance mainly). I couldn't win against Reanimator main deck (0-5) but nearly couldn't lose after sideboard (6-1). Unfortunatly i was very unfavored against Sneak and Show both main and sided deck. I think S&S is very good right now, Griselbrand is crazy.
I guess Enlightned Tutor with Humility and maybe Ensnaring Bridge and Karakas might improve the matchup.

Others comments about my version : i don't have a precise opinion about Entreat the Angels yet because i think it's a very good kill but it's awful in the first 10-12 cards the draw and the deck may not need it. I think the deck don't need 4 Counterbalance (at least not without E.Tutor) because the counterbalance curve is not great and because it's not very good against some played decks and bad in multiples. V.Clique is really nice to cycle miracle cards and a good card/clock against combo, that's why i play 4 four of them after sideboarding. I might consider cutting it if i play E.Tutor though. I'm still a bit worried about the time, that's why i play maybe a bit more win condition than other people.

What do you think about my version ?
Do you think E.Tutor package is better ?
Which version would you play ?

About your comment : How do you kill after sideboarding against S&S ? only Jace ?

[Maëlig]

S&S is definitely our worse MU. Bridge is good but it's not even a gamebreaker, since they can now griselbrand into protected bounce. Humility is our best bet, even though it's slow and hard to protect.

[Shaka1333]

I like your plan Maëlig to side out artefacts in some matchups but i'm not sure how good 3 Entreat the Angels would perform. It's a great finisher card but definitely not something you want to see in your opening hand : 3 is very likely too much... maybe a mix of Entreat the Angels/Elspeth and Vendilion Clique ?

[sdematt]

In all honesty, I think Terminus is a better card than Entreat. Entreat's XWW Miracle cost is more of a discount or it's on sale rather than being a Miracle. It's really hard to cast, especially if you're paying XXWWW. Terminus, on the other hands, won't take up your entire turn's mana, and still has a major impact on the boardstate.

So far, in my testing, Oblivion Ring has been utter garbage (I've mainly been testing the Maverick/RUG matchup). It's great to have, but maindeck, it's been mediocre, at best.

The problem is, Gaddock Teeg still ruins both those cards. Sure, miracle into Terminus is great, but, at 6 CMC, it won't rush through a Teeg. Other than that, I might be testing that in the place of Oblivion Ring.

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

3 Counterbalance
3 Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Meekstone (has been somewhat debatable, but I'll keep testing it)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Terminus

--BOARD--

1 Cursed Totem
3 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
2 Dread of Night
1 Perish
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Karmic Justice
1 Open

[TkDodo]

I wanted to send you a private message TkDodo but unfortunately you desactivated this option.


I wasn't aware of that, sorry ;)



Anyway, thank you very much for your answer.
I have been liking a lot all of your posts so far and i'm very pleased that you spent some time to answer me.
We have a big tournament in France in 10 days (Bazaar of Moxen 6) and i will very likely play this kind of deck.

I would really love to play @ BOM myself, unfortunately, I have work to do *g*. Hopefully I can make it to GP Ghent though.



I don't know where you are from but european metagame is a bit different than SCG Open metagame : Maverick, Rug and Stoneblade are also the big three decks but there are a lot more combo decks here.


I am from Vienna, Austria. Yes, it's pretty much the same here ;) That's why I switched from StoneBlade to CB-Thopters in the first place.



Here is my decklist right now :

Lands (23)
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge mystic

// Spells
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Batterskull

// Sideboard
1 Terminus
2 Disenchant
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterbalance
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 not determined slots : EE, Meddling Mage, Relic etc...

I didn't have the time to test Enlightned Tutor yet.
The deck have been performing very well right now (crushing Maverick with Terminus (Turn 5, Terminus + Jace is usually game) and Esper Stoneblade with Meek + Thopter, and beating RUG with Terminus and Counterbalance mainly). I couldn't win against Reanimator main deck (0-5) but nearly couldn't lose after sideboard (6-1). Unfortunatly i was very unfavored against Sneak and Show both main and sided deck. I think S&S is very good right now, Griselbrand is crazy.
I guess Enlightned Tutor with Humility and maybe Ensnaring Bridge and Karakas might improve the matchup.

Others comments about my version : i don't have a precise opinion about Entreat the Angels yet because i think it's a very good kill but it's awful in the first 10-12 cards the draw and the deck may not need it. I think the deck don't need 4 Counterbalance (at least not without E.Tutor) because the counterbalance curve is not great and because it's not very good against some played decks and bad in multiples. V.Clique is really nice to cycle miracle cards and a good card/clock against combo, that's why i play 4 four of them after sideboarding. I might consider cutting it if i play E.Tutor though. I'm still a bit worried about the time, that's why i play maybe a bit more win condition than other people.

What do you think about my version ?
Do you think E.Tutor package is better ?
Which version would you play ?

About your comment : How do you kill after sideboarding against S&S ? only Jace ?

First of all, I think your list looks sweet. I like the SFM inclusion, since this is something I am trying out myself. SFM -> Batterskull just gives us another angle of attack, which I really like (this is also my win-con against S&S, although they scoop mostly prior to that). My current list is on page 56, including some thoughts on it, so I don't want to repeat myself. I just replaced the Snare with a CSpell and changed the board a bit.) I based my list on sdematt's list, especially the mana base. It's very stable and has some nice specials, like the Seat of the Synod to tutor up with E.Tutor or the Ancient Tomb to allow for a T3 Jace or a T4 Batterskull.
The mana base is also where I would start working in your list. I don't think Wastelands are neccessary. Our deck is very mana hungry (top for instance, even more so with SFM), needs UU a lot, and would not profit from an early Wasteland on an opponent, even if he's somehow struggeling with his mana development, as we can't punish him very fast for that. In Stoneblade, I was playing 2 Wastelands to deal with troublesome lands, mostly Maze of Ith or Grove of the Burnwillows. Both are irrelevant though if you can go for the thopter combo. I would also not play Glacial Fortress. If you want a blue source that untaps under Choke, play Seat of the Synod. Otherwise, just play more basics (maybe a second plains [if you have Elspeth, which I would suggest]) or a 9th fetch, which can't hurt. Splashing black or red is also very possible with that deck, the mana base would not suffer too much, especially if you are only splashing for the sb.

On the topic of which "package" (E.Tutor or Terminus) is better, I would probably have to say E.Tutor. Although tutor is not outstanding against decks that can just counter what you tutor for (like uw blade decks), it has great synergy with CB (responding to the trigger) and it can fetch silver bullets from the board. Cursed Totem is backbreaking against Maverick, as is Humility. Humility is, in general, one of the best cards this deck has to offer. Its perfect with the combo and with Batterskull. You have to cut creatures with CIP effects though (Clique).

I like the interaction of cliquing away your own unneeded Miracles, so I can see your version working if you don't completely wreck your CB-Curve with it ;) For now, I just think that E.Tutor is superior (feel free to prove me wrong ;)

On a side note, I went to a local tourney today (16 players), and went 3-1. I was short on my Cursed Totems, it didn't matter though, as I didn't face any Maverick. Last I checked, everybody was playing combo. Half the field were UW blade decks though today ;)

R1: 2-1 against UW Blade, I loose G1 quickly to Geist of Saint Traft, win G2 (after I lock him out) with Batterskull and can kill him G3 in the 5th extra turn with a Jace. He had double equipped Geist out, but I had Bridge and CB-Top.

R2: 0-2 against Imperial Painter. I blundered both games, keeping bad hands, putting back StoP with my brainstorm so I cannot kill his Painter, stuff like that. He T2 killed me in G2 on top of that. I guess I needed the break ;)

R3: 2-0 UW Delver Blade (some form of UW tempo with Geist, Delver, SFM, Stifle, Wasteland). G1 he has no counters for the combo and tries to race it with double delver + Geist. I only have 3 lands so I can only make 3 tokens a turn, but still, you can't realistically race thopters ;). G2 I blow him out with a well timed Back2Basics after he beats me with two flipped Delvers. Swords on one and Jace on the other and he scooped with no untapped land in play

R4: 2-0 against Sneak&Show. Unfortunately, I get paired against my playtest-buddy. We played this matchup a ton as I said earlier. I steal G1 by brainstorming into Humility while he had Sneak Attack out but was missing the creature after he won the counter war over Sneak Attack and my Bridge. G2 he mulls and I open with T1 top, T2 CB with force backup, T3 Canonist, still having Spell Pierce backup and Bridge in my hand. Nothing he could do.

[Shaka1333]

You are right about Wasteland. I played them when my plan was to kill with real creatures (not just token) and forgot to think about removing them.

I really like the idea to play Ancient Tomb and Seat of Synod. Are you 100% sure about Trinket Mage though ? He is obviously pretty sweet but is he really worth the slot ?

Is Ensnaring Bridge really good ? I hate having no cards in hand and i feel like Humility is basically the same but better. Speaking of which, you told me to cut V.Clique if i play Humility but you are actually playing 4 CIP effect creature in your decklist :p

I also like playing 1 or 2 Snapcaster Mage in this deck but it's really hard to find a room for it.

I can't tell yet which package is superior but i think it's possible to play both by cutting some cards (easier said than done i know). Terminus would improve your Maverick matchup, make you not need to splash black only for Perish and EE or play an other splash like red for Pyroblast (my favorite sideboard card).

What have you been thinking of Back to Basics so far ?
Did you test Vedalken Shackles ? Isn't it better than Brigde ?

To come back on what Maëlig said, i agree than one of the main problem of the deck is game 2 and 3 where your opponent can bring stuff like Ancient Grudge for your artefacts and REB for your Jace. It's probably right to have acces to an another kill which is not sensible to these cards. Does anyone see something else than Entreat the Angels and Elspeth ? What do you yhink about it ?

[TkDodo]

You are right about Wasteland. I played them when my plan was to kill with real creatures (not just token) and forgot to think about removing them.

I really like the idea to play Ancient Tomb and Seat of Synod. Are you 100% sure about Trinket Mage though ? He is obviously pretty sweet but is he really worth the slot ?

Is Ensnaring Bridge really good ? I hate having no cards in hand and i feel like Humility is basically the same but better. Speaking of which, you told me to cut V.Clique if i play Humility but you are actually playing 4 CIP effect creature in your decklist :p

I also like playing 1 or 2 Snapcaster Mage in this deck but it's really hard to find a room for it.

I can't tell yet which package is superior but i think it's possible to play both by cutting some cards (easier said than done i know). Terminus would improve your Maverick matchup, make you not need to splash black only for Perish and EE or play an other splash like red for Pyroblast (my favorite sideboard card).

What have you been thinking of Back to Basics so far ?
Did you test Vedalken Shackles ? Isn't it better than Brigde ?

To come back on what Maëlig said, i agree than one of the main problem of the deck is game 2 and 3 where your opponent can bring stuff like Ancient Grudge for your artefacts and REB for your Jace. It's probably right to have acces to an another kill which is not sensible to these cards. Does anyone see something else than Entreat the Angels and Elspeth ? What do you yhink about it ?

Yes, there is definitley some anti-synergy in playing creature with CIP effects and Humility. However, If you resolve a Humility in a matchup where it matters (Maverick, RUG Tempo, Sneak&Show), what does it matter that your creatures don't do anything anymore, the game should be in your favor now. I wouldn't go higher than 4 though. And yes, I can also see myself playing 1 Vendilion Clique over the Trinket Mage. I really love the Clique. I just don't think the flash part if as neccessary as it would be in, say, Stoneblade. We aren't really a keep-mana-open-all-the-time kind of deck. They are both 3drops and blue, so they are reasonably interchangeable. Postboard, Trinket Mage becomes better in some matchups, being able to fetch Crypt or Needle. Still, I'm not 100% sold. I just know I want a blue 3-drop creature ;)

I kind of like the idea of cutting Perish for Terminus in the board, abandoning the black splash. Apart from Perish, black only helps me casting Thopter Foundry once in a while off an USea and an Island for instance. Red seems like a good splash color as well, offering REB effects, which I love a lot myself. It could help against UW decks, although I don't know how much that would be neccessary. REB is also obv. good against most combo decks, though we should beat them anyway.
I think I need to get more testing done against Maverick with the black splash and without it to see the difference.

I didn't test Shackles, but I can't imagine it being better than Bridge. See, Bridge plays very well with the core strategy of the deck, which is not neccessarly creating card advantage, but dropping combos and bombs that generate virutal card advantage by outclassing most of the things your opponents do. Shackles is just a solid 2-1, which can turn games around, but it's very slow, and a Bridge at the right time can stop every army.

Back2Basics is a card I really like in the board, because it can be so relevant in some matchups. Even against decks that have basics, most of them don't expect it from a 3 color deck (mostly overseeing that we have about 7 basics), so they don't neccessarily fetch for basics in G2. I remember two games that Back2Basics won for me recently against opponents who had basics in their deck, but they just figured since I don't play Wastelands, why would they need their basics? Maybe it's not ideal to base a card's strength on your opponents playing incorrectly, but as long as they do, I will keep playing it. It's like back when people didn't know how to play against Standstill, it was a blast to play it ;). A series that frequently happens is boarding it in in G2 and boarding it out in G3 (assuming I lost G1) when they saw it, since now the jig is up and they will go for basics anyway in G3, hopefully cutting them off some mana in the proccess.
That's just on top of the matchups where B2B is always good, like RUG Tempo or BUG decks, which don't have basics at all.

Regarding an additional wincon, I prefer Elspeth. Oh and SFM->Batterskull of course. I'm not really afraid of REB or Ancient Grudge. I mean, there is so much they want to / have to target with it, if they want to wait until I drop my Jace / Thopter combo, great, have fun handling Counterbalance, Bridge and Batterskull.
Entreat the Angels sounds good in theory, and it has CMC 3, which could be relevant. The fact that you mostly only want to see in the really late game makes it a 1-of at most. TBH, I haven't tested it yet, I just generally feel that I don't want to fill the deck with too many clunky Miracle cards...

[Shaka1333]

Thank you for sharing your point of view about Trinket Mage, Clique, Bridge, Shackles and B2B.

The more i think about it the more i like your version :). I'm going to test a version very close to your main deck this week end.
But still, i really think i want to play some Terminus.
Entreat the Angels might not be worth but Terminus is definitely worth some slots and probably 1 to 3 in the main deck, it is that good.
I still have some questions about your version though :

I understand your reasoning about playing only 2 Jaces with your version (not sure i agree though but you have more experience and i'm kind of Jace addicted ^^;) but would you play 3 Jaces with Terminus ? As i said, Terminus + Jace in the same turn is the nuts. I would like to play an Elpseth though. Do you think 5 4cc cards is too much ?

Do you agree that Blood Moon is better than B2B ?
Do you like Cursed Totem, Meekstone and Engineered Plague out of your sideboard ?
I feel like with 4 StP, 3/4 Terminus, 2EE, Bridge and Humility lock after sideboard (...), it's very hard to lose against an aggro deck and thus i don't see the need of those cards.
Don't you think 4 antiGY cards with 2 Tutor and Trinket Mage is a bit too much ?

[TkDodo]

I understand your reasoning about playing only 2 Jaces with your version (not sure i agree though but you have more experience and i'm kind of Jace addicted ^^;) but would you play 3 Jaces with Terminus ? As i said, Terminus + Jace in the same turn is the nuts. I would like to play an Elpseth though. Do you think 5 4cc cards is too much ?

Going back to 3 Jaces is understandable if you have Termini maindeck. You can play an Elspeth sb then for instance. If you have Batterskull as a 5drop also in your deck, I wouldn't play too many 4drops. I would stick to 3 Planeswalkers and Humility.



Do you agree that Blood Moon is better than B2B ?


Not neccessarily. Mostly, I would drop B2B when the opponent tapped out, or tapped like 3 out of 4 of his lands, effectively waste-landing him three times. Most decks can operate just fine with 1 or 2 basics and a couple of mountains. On the other hand, if they get a couple of fetches, they can go for basics and get out of B2B, or just go for REB (like RUG for instance). If I were to splash red, an argument could be made for trying out Blood Moon.



Do you like Cursed Totem, Meekstone and Engineered Plague out of your sideboard ?
I feel like with 4 StP, 3/4 Terminus, 2EE, Bridge and Humility lock after sideboard (...), it's very hard to lose against an aggro deck and thus i don't see the need of those cards.

Oh, I actually cut some of them recently from my board. It currently is:

1 Cursed Totem
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish

Sure, if I were to play with 3/4 Terminus, I would cut the Perishes and probably the Meekstone as well from the board. Cursed Totem is very good against Maverick, most lists have no out, as Pridemage can't kill it. Turning off all their Mothers, Hierarchs, Dryad Arbors, Knight Tutoring and Oozes, what's left? A couple of goyf-like vanilla creatures with no protection. We can beat that all day with thopters, or even with Batterskull and StoP.
I added a 3rd E.Tutor in the board, as it is very good against decks that can't counter (like Maverick). Card disadvantage is nothing if you can stick Humility T4 ;)



Don't you think 4 antiGY cards with 2 Tutor and Trinket Mage is a bit too much ?
Surgical Extraction can be brought in against most combo decks too, so I think it's fine. Crypt is a little more narrow (Reanimator and Dredge exclusively actually), but tutorable. If you don't expect a lot of dredge, going down to 2 Extractions is ok. Just make sure you have enough things to bring in against ANT and the like, because you have a lot of dead cards to board out.

[sdematt]

At the moment, who's running Cursed Totem, and how many are you running total?

I'm just wondering if one in the main is enough. Like, I've got another in the board, but 2 doesn't do me any good, and they basically can't kill it. Plus, it's not like I'm trying to draw it naturally.

I'm just wondering on the merits of two total, or if one should be enough.

-Matt

[TkDodo]

At the moment, who's running Cursed Totem, and how many are you running total?

I'm just wondering if one in the main is enough. Like, I've got another in the board, but 2 doesn't do me any good, and they basically can't kill it. Plus, it's not like I'm trying to draw it naturally.

I'm just wondering on the merits of two total, or if one should be enough.

-Matt

I am having 1 in the board alongside 2 E.Tutor main + another 1 in the side for a total of virutal 4. That's more than enough to have it early against Maverick consistently. I don't see why I want more, given that it doesn't do enough in other matchups apart from Maverick. That's also why I don't see it as a maindeck card.

[Maëlig]

Until I see a majority of maverick lists with krosan grip / ancient grudge in the board, I don't really see a reason to play more than 1. If you want to see it more consistently just add another e tutor, or play another humility which at least is useful in other MU.

[sdematt]

I'm playing 3 E. Tutor main, 1 Totem main, and 1 Humility Main. I was thinking whether or not to have another one in the side.

-Matt

[TkDodo]

I'm playing 3 E. Tutor main, 1 Totem main, and 1 Humility Main. I was thinking whether or not to have another one in the side.

-Matt

Just out of curiosity, I would like to hear your reasoning on the Totem in the main. I mean, it must be horrible to pull it against any of the top decks apart from Maverick. If you can tell me what to do with it against Dredge, ANT, RUG Tempo, StoneBlade and to some lesser extent SneakAttack, Burn, Reanimator, [insert any deck !Maverick here], I might give it a shot.

[Philipp2293]

Some cases might be marginal, but:

Dredge: Putrim Imp
Burn: Lavamancer
Sneak Attack: Griselbrand (also Reanimator if he's run in there)
Stoneblade: Stoneforge Mystic
Nic Fit: Ooze, Wickerbough Elder
Elves
Mono W Lifegain

I admit, some of these cases might occur pretty seldom, but in the 2 tourneys I ran Totem in the SB of UW Landstill it has been relevant quite some times.

[Koby]

Some cases might be marginal, but:

Dredge: Putrim Imp
Burn: Lavamancer
Sneak Attack: Griselbrand (also Reanimator if he's run in there)
Stoneblade: Stoneforge Mystic
Nic Fit: Ooze, Wickerbough Elder
Elves
Mono W Lifegain

I admit, some of these cases might occur pretty seldom, but in the 2 tourneys I ran Totem in the SB of UW Landstill it has been relevant quite some times.

Most of these situations would be better with Humility. A split between the two in the 75 should be more than enough, and a 2nd Totem is overkill/wasted SB slot.

[Shaka1333]

I played this deck Saturday and finished 1st in a very random 10 people tournament :

5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

2 Counterbalance
4 Top

1 Stoneforge mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Terminus

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thirst for Knowledge

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Schakles
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Terminus
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance
1 Force of Will
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing

I played against Dredge (2-0!), Dream Halls (2-1), Aggro Loam (2-0), Aluren (2-0) and 43 Lands (2-0) ... i know, it was very random but still i was very impressed by the deck.

My only hesitations are :
- The number of Counterbalance : 2 or 3 ?
- The number of Force of Will : 3 or 4 ?
- Vedalken Schakles ?
- Not sure about all of the sideboard (B2B and Terminus)

I need more test to know if i want to "waste" a slot playing Cursing Totem only for Maverick or if my 4 Terminus swing already enough the matchup in my favor.
I have been very impressed by Thirst for Knowledge. I think it's the best blue 3 drop.

The only thing i don't like about the deck is the stress to go on time... you have to press your opponent to play faster and i don't like doing that.

What do you think ?

[TkDodo]

I played this deck Saturday and finished 1st in a very random 10 people tournament :

5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

2 Counterbalance
4 Top

1 Stoneforge mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Terminus

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thirst for Knowledge

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Schakles
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Terminus
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterbalance
1 Force of Will
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing

I played against Dredge (2-0!), Dream Halls (2-1), Aggro Loam (2-0), Aluren (2-0) and 43 Lands (2-0) ... i know, it was very random but still i was very impressed by the deck.

My only hesitations are :
- The number of Counterbalance : 2 or 3 ?
- The number of Force of Will : 3 or 4 ?
- Vedalken Schakles ?
- Not sure about all of the sideboard (B2B and Terminus)

I need more test to know if i want to "waste" a slot playing Cursing Totem only for Maverick or if my 4 Terminus swing already enough the matchup in my favor.
I have been very impressed by Thirst for Knowledge. I think it's the best blue 3 drop.

The only thing i don't like about the deck is the stress to go on time... you have to press your opponent to play faster and i don't like doing that.

What do you think ?

Congratulations on your finish. That list looks very very well! With that many Termini, I could see myself abandoning the black splash as well. However, why didn't you play 1 REB (probably over 1 Pierce in the side) ? Seems pretty good against all the decks you want Pierce as well.

Thirst for Knowledge sounds like a very good idea. Blue 3 drop, instant speed, draws and filters, can ditch unneded artifacts (like superflous tops, or, even better, Sword of the Meek). I'm positive that I will try it out over the Trinket Mage.

I still think Ensnaring Bridge >> Vedalken Shackles. We loose cards in hand pretty quickly, most aggro decks have little to no outs to it preboard, and the Thopter combo can always attack through it. Besides Humility, Bridge is a main reason to play Enlightened Tutor. I don't think you can hold off an army with Shackles like you can with Bridge, although with Terminus, this might not be needed that much.

On the number of Counterbalances, I would go with 3. The only thing that bothers me a little bit with your list is that it looks like the combo matchup is not as easy as it could be. There are so many "useless" cards G1, I can imagine it being somewhat tough winning against ANT or TES, especially with only 3 FOW and 2 CB.

One question on the sb: You mentioned Clique being very good with cycling away unneded Miracles, which sounds great, at least in G1. Postboard however, I believe the Termini are either coming out completely, or you want more of them. In matchups where you want 4, I can't see Clique being any good. I'm wondering if you really bring in Cliques and Terminus at the same time?

On another note, I would be curious on how you really closed most games. The last tourney I played, I found myself only actually assembling the Thopter combo once or twice. Just wanted to know if you have the same experience.

And yes, the time constraint can be a problem. Especially when we loose G1 and G2 is locked up (like literally unlosable), it drives me crazy if my opponent doesn't scoop ;)

[Shaka1333]

I hesitated to play 2 or 3 REB until the last minute but decided to stay on a slightly better manabase but i think it's probably wrong because REB is still way better than Spell Pierce (which is already awesome) and it takes only one more Volcanic Island or one Mountain to make the red splash playable so not a big destabilisation of the manabase.

I mentioned previously that Clique was nice with unneeded miracles but here i play Clique "only" as a great card against Combo and Stoneblade and eventually for addionnal pressure if needed, not for the bonus effect to shuffle back miracles because as you said i side out Terminus in those matchups. I might keep one Terminus against Esper and Sneak and Show though. Moreover, against Sneak and Show, it increases your 3cc drops making your Counterbalance better.

I'm not sold on Vedalken Shackles yet but i don't think i'm going to play Bridge... i may be wrong but i think with 2 Terminus MD and 2 other in the side, i don't really need it.

I won most of my games with Jace (40/45%), then the combo (35-40%) and then Batterskull (15-25%) but again in this tournament, opposing decks and opponents were very random. When i tested against more serious decks and opponent, i won nearly all my games with the combo against Esper Stoneblade (they have the mere Vindicate as their only out MD). Against Maverick, nearly all my games on Jace or Terminus + Jace followed by as much Brainstorm as needed/possible and then kill with fatesealing or with the combo. I'm going to test the RUG matchup a bit more tomorrow.

I don't know about Enlightened Tutor ... i think it's already good enough if you play it to find your 2 combos and sometimes Humility and the sideboard cards ... it doesn't need much more to be excellent.

You must be right about my ANT matchup but i'm not sure if ANT is still played or not ... i would like to play 3 Counterbalance and more Pierce/Counterspell but it's pretty hard to find the right cbalance :).

I would also like to test 1 Entreat the Angels again but i don't know if i will have the time :(

[Watanabe]

Hi all,

Here is the list I played in a tournament (45 players) saturday :

// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [UNH] Island
1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [SOM] Trinket Mage
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [6E] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [7E] Meekstone
SB: 1 [CMD] Path to Exile

This list come form one of you ! Don't remember exactly who but I remembered that I netdecked it form this forum :)

Her's my little report :
Round 1 : Affinity
G1 : He won the roll die and begin by... Heap Doll !! Just notice that this guy didn't know me so he played it in blind... he keep on by a turn 2 Heap Doll again and beat me with a etched champion. I find no solution to this despite my turn 1 top and a lot of fetchlands.
G2 : Turn 3 I got Thopter Sword on the board and active (thx to Ancient tomb, definitively MVP of the deck saturday !), and he scooped
G3 : He had a big turn with 3 Thoughtcast and 2 cranial plating... Etched chamion equiped and I scooped...

End of the 1st round and I'm quite fed up with 2 things :
- Not playing any mass removal... :(
- Legacy is so pairing dependant... Thx to the 2 Heap Doll on R1 G1 ! :o

Round 2 : Rock with NO
Not too much to say, my opponent was not a good player and I succeed in ultimate my Elspeth with Humility on table on G1.
On Game 2 I have Thopter Sword (he didn't see the combo on G1) and that's game. (He put me at 1 with a groundbreaker exalted...WTF is legacy ?)

Round 3 : Bant :
G1 : He scooped when I have Jace + Ensnaring bridge on the board with his single Qasali in his Yard :)
G2 : I keep a 2 lands opening hand, and I'll never draw a mana source in 5 turns... If I had drew one, I had won this game by keeping me out of his Geist + Tarmo (I had Thopter Sword on the board). I'm very disapointed about it...
G3 : I have the board but can't succeed in beating him before the end of the 5 additional turns... So it's a draw...

I'm at 1/1/1, and a bit angry.

Round 4 : UW Control
G1 : He made a huge mistake by using his snare on Sword of the meek, which allowed me to play Thopter Foundry with a Seat of Synod on table.
G2 : THIS ! This is the kind of game I really really love ! 35min, ery very interesting. No winner at the end of the 5 additional turns so I won 1/0 but the G2 was impressive !

Round 5 : UW Miracle (teammate)
G1 : He made a T1 Top, T2 CB with back up... I didn't scoop because I succeed in sticking a thopter foundry on the board with Seat of Synod and Aca ruins on the table. So Sword of the meek and I'm totally in for the win... But I'll never find it :)
G2 : I made a T1 Top, T2 CB with Back-up...
G3 : He made a T1 Top, T2 CB with back up... Well, not very funny :rolleyes:

Round 6 : Tempo ***** :
G1 : He mulliganed to 5 and scooped after I CB Top
G2 : I have the Thopter Foundry on the board, and he scooped.

Conclusion :
- MVP : Ancient tomb and Humility
- Things to improve (I think) : include a mass removal !


I'm convinced that Thopter is a really good deck in Legacy now, so I tried to find some new lists and find one I loved :

// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TE] Humility
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [M12] Mana Leak
1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 1 [TSP] Disenchant
SB: 1 [6E] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

I tuned it a little (including Ancient Tomb dude !!). Things I love :
- 4 CB and 4 Top
- 2 Mass removal (I'm not totally convinced by Terminus... Maybe Wrath is a bit better because having a Terminus in hand means a mull @6 :o)
- 3 Foundry (I was always looking for the combo so I think we need to play more foundry / sword)

Things I feel bad with that list :
- Not enough counter
- Only 1 Sword.





Thx for reading, hope I'll get some feedbacks from you ;)

[Black Rain]

To be honest I've hagd this deck for at least three years and the only creature that was ever worth running was SFM. By not running creatures you turn all of aggro controls removal into card disadvantage. I think Terminus is one of the greatest tools. I've always won with this.deck.when my opponents board is empty or Damn near. Once the board is empty you drop Jace or CB and u just win thru control. I know Snapcaster is good but when you are trying to remove the board he can be anti synergistic with say Terminus, Wrath,Humility e.g. I like running builds with no.creatures. That's my two cents.......will post my list shortly

[plimplam]

What do you think about this list? Top 4 in a 85 people tournament in Madrid (Spain) ??

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
5 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB:

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Terminus
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Noxious Revival

[Watanabe]

NoThopter, no foundry... Man, you should post in another thread I guess :)

[sdematt]

I was running pre-board games against Maverick, and so far, I've been loving my list. Thalia is a beating, so basically, keep mana up on their turn two to counter her is my only advice.

-Matt

[Anusien]

Do RUG lists you all face not pack Ancient Grudge? I'm really nervous about playing mono-artifacts.dec when I know they have Grudge against me already.

[Koby]

Do RUG lists you all face not pack Ancient Grudge? I'm really nervous about playing mono-artifacts.dec when I know they have Grudge against me already.

Few, if any run Grudge and only as a singleton copy. Some also play K-Grip. Both are easily answered with an active Counterbalance, and the former is easily countered with <Snare/Counterspell>.

[Watanabe]

I was running pre-board games against Maverick, and so far, I've been loving my list. Thalia is a beating, so basically, keep mana up on their turn two to counter her is my only advice.

-Matt

Good to hear that ! Is it possible to have your list again ?

And how do you feel against RUG and UR Delver ? I have a lot of issues to manage with an early Delver, and both Miracles (Temporal and Wrath) are very difficult to counter :)

[sdematt]

Grudge isn't widely played, and if they're playing Grip, they have to eenie-meenie-minie-moe to choose which is relevant enough to hit.

I also tested extensively against Goblins (looking to test against an aggressive, disruptive swarm deck) and it was sad. I got there so hard, so many times.

My list is:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
6 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Cursed Totem
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
1 Terminus
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

-Matt

[Shtchepahn]

Grudge does nothing against counter-top which is the weapon of choice against Threshold.
The only relevant things it can hit is Ensnaring Bridge and T-Foundry, but we can still make some tokens if we try to go off late.

[mossivo1986]

Counter-top thopter

4x flooded strand
1x polluted delta
1x Misty rainforest
4x tundra
1x seachrome coast
1x underground sea
2x volcanic island
4x island
2x plains
1x academy ruin
1x wasteland
1x seat of synod

4x force of will
4x brainstorm
4x counterbalance
4x swords to plowshares
3x jace, the mind sculpter
3x enlightened tutor
3x sensei's divining top
3x spell snare
2x thopter foundry
1x sword of the meek
1x crucible of worlds
1x ensnaring bridge
1x pithing needle
1x engineered explosives
1x moat
1x future site

Sideboard
1x sacred mesa
1x cursed totem
1x moat
1x humility
1x ensnaring bridge
1x ethersworn cannonist
2x spell pierce
1x Nihil spellbomb
1x peacekeeper
1x serenity
1x blood moon
1x wheel of sun and moon
2x red elemental

Old list im looking at testing. Thoughts?

[Maëlig]

@sdematt I'm quite curious on your choice of snare in place of pierce. From my experience pierce is generally better in getting us through the early game, which is our main challenge. It also allows us to counter spells that escape CB-top (planeswalkers, GSZ, etc), whereas snare is generally dead once we've set up the soft-lock.

[mossivo1986]

Snare counters problematic creatures that I dont want to see for an efficient cc. at the point where my opponent is casting noncreature spells I will have stronger options to " counter" they're line of play.

[Justin]

From my experience playing this deck, the two most important non-blue cards are Top and Enlightened Tutor. A really prefer to play a full set of four for both of these cards. I've noticed that I usually win with the deck if I resolve an early Top and the sledding gets much tougher if I don't. I've also found it useful to run an additional Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, upping it to a 3/2 split. This makes getting your win condition more reliable. Players who opt for the 3/2 split over the 2/1 split, should probably only run two Jace, as you don't want your win cons taking up too many slots.

Future Sight is cute and I did test it for a while before finally dropping it. It's cool, but really not necessary in this deck. I would also move Crucible and Needle to the sideboard to make room for the other cards I mentioned above.

[mossivo1986]

Justin.

I will retest top four.
I dont like the idea of dropping cow. I think its very important. It also fits my playstyle.

Referancing my last post. Maybe we should consider playing counterspell, and just outvaluing our opponents with superior cards as opposed to more efficiency? is the format slow enough?

Future site is the stone cold nuts in my opinion.
As for needle, that I could see as well. are vial decks/jace decks not a large part of the field anymore?

[Arsenal]

Back when I played UWx CounterTop Thopter, 2 Counterspell was pretty standard for most lists (some even played 3). Haven't touched this deck since Mental Misstep was printed, then quit Magic for about 8 months and just recently came back, so I'm unsure if Counterspell still has a home here (as an aside, Counterspell still finds it's way into UW Stoneblade decks to ensure a hard counter for late game bombs that Snare and Pierce can't hit).

[sdematt]

Snare hits Thalia, Ooze, Qasali, Gaddock Teeg. Pierce does not hit these.

GSZ for Qasali, Ooze, Teeg is hit by Pierce, not by Snare.

Snare is still pretty good, but that's why I'm backing it up with Leak/Counterspell: both hit what Snare doesn't. They're casting Thalia so much on turn 2/3 that I'd rather have Snare atm. If they didn't have Thalia? Then it'd be more debatable for me.

-Matt

[Iron Buddha]

Why not just running PtE instead of Snare/Pierce? PtE is one of the few cards that deals efficiently with Delver of Secrets, whereas regarding the main-targets of Snare/Pierce it's pretty easy to find other cards that can deal those, maybe not as efficient as Snare on SCM or Spell Pierce on Jace, but that's a slower matchup anyway, where it rather comes down to power than to efficiency.

If you ask me, I would run a mix of PtE and Counterspell.

CoW and Future sight are pretty cool, but I wonder if you need both, since they actually do the same thing: straight out generating CA.

[mossivo1986]

Future site is a tutorable jace, with the added bonus of outright winning the jace wars even when one is played against you.

Crucible fights the tempo style decks, also allows you to randomly waste lock an opponent. Both are great in aggro control and control matchups, but the main issues I see at this point is making g\w maverick favorable preboard.

I think it may end up looking completely top heavy preboard, ie 2x moat, bridge, humility, etc. that way post board you have the greatest chance of beating them. In case your wondering ive had lots of trouble beating maverick before. And with the new 2 drop they picked up, thingd, seem harder. Any thoughts on hozer cardd guys?

[Justin]

New two-drop hozer card? I assume you mean Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Well, if you can't counter it, I suppose Swords for W1 isn't too bad. I still run a couple Counterspell and have run that card ever since I picked up this deck. I'm not sure if that's still the right decision anymore, though.

A lot of these silver bullet cards are really meta-dependent on whether or not you want them in the main deck or sideboard. I'd say this holds true for Needle, Humility, graveyard hate, etc. By the way, if you expect any Reanimator at all, Grafdigger's Cage is great because it wins G1 all by itself if you drop it. I would include one copy of that card somewhere in the 75 of any version of this deck.

You mention that you like Crucible because it helps fight decks that attack your mana base. Another way to improve your chances against those decks is to run more basic lands. Your list splashes both red and black. Is that really necessary? There are only a few cards that you run in those colors. It's only EE in the starting 60 and then Nihil Spellbomb, Blood Moon, and REB in the sb. I'm not sure how necessary those cards are. As mentioned, I like Grafdigger's Cage as graveyard hate. I'm not sure about REB, because I prefer sb cards that you can tutor for. I've found that a straight UW list can work very well. It helps against decks that run 4 Wasteland and allows you to cut Crucible from the main deck. The only card that I really want to run extra colors for is EE.

[menace13]

Have been testing Temporal and Terminus, but the lists are so tight it's really hard trying to make cuts. I went creature-less despite wanting to jam a few Snapcasters. I don't want Mystics I feel they are lacking against RUG and Maverick. So far I have this list;

[Artifact]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

[Land]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra

[Planeswalker]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Enchantment]
4 Counterbalance
1 Humility

[Instant]
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Sorcery]
3 Temporal Mastery
2 Terminus

SB is currently at ;

1 Back to Basics
1 Cursed Totem
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Terminus
1 Tormod's Crypt

[mossivo1986]

I still like ee as opposed to o ring
I like cage, but thats still up in the air
Agree with manabase

Counter-top thopter

4x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
1x marsh flats
4x tundra
1x underground sea
5x island
2x plains
1x academy ruin
1x wasteland
1x seat of synod
1x karakas

4x force of will
4x brainstorm
4x counterbalance
4x swords to plowshares
3x jace, the mind sculpter
3x enlightened tutor
3x sensei's divining top
3x spell snare
2x thopter foundry
1x sword of the meek
1x crucible of worlds
1x ensnaring bridge
1x grafdigger's cage
1x humility
1x moat
1x future site

Sideboard
1x sacred mesa
1x cursed totem
1x moat
1x humility
1x ensnaring bridge
1x ethersworn cannonist
3x spell pierce
1x Nihil spellbomb
1x serenity
1x engineered explosives
1x volcanic island
2 Extra slots

Thoughts?

The previous model was centered around fighting jace/ centric decks, and therefore it gave up a safer landbase. This new model seems solid, though id like to see the sideboard cleaned up a bit. I think I still want a needle in the board, or aura of silence. Maybe an o ring in the main even if I dont like it.

[matunos]

I still like ee as opposed to o ring
I like cage, but thats still up in the air
Agree with manabase


Cage has a lot of disynergy with Future Sight, which seems pretty expensive to play for marginal benefit anyway (just flip SDT if you need the top card that bad).

[sdematt]

@ Menace

I'm not sure if jamming 5-6 Miracles is the right idea, but let us know how it works out for you.

-Matt

[mossivo1986]

How does cage interact with future sit when you play no creatures?

Futute site works with the deck in several ways.

1. Allows you to flood the board with perms. Its absolutely frustrating to be on the opposing side of a live future site.

2. Its a tutorable jace effectively. With the bonus of being better in jase based matchups.

3. With countertop in play you effectively can tutor counter 1/5.

4. With top you can fill your grip 1 mana for a card. So you font get land. Counterspell blocked.

5. With future in play e tutor turns into idylic tutor for 1.
I understand it looks costly, but consider for a minute the pure potency.

[matunos]

How does cage interact with future sit when you play no creatures?

Don't forget the 2nd paragraph:

"Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries."

[mossivo1986]

Oh man. Big rtfc there! I thought it was only creatures...
Well thats really not a huge deal. Then that slot changes to

Needle
Ee
O ring
Or ...

[TkDodo]

I went to a local tourney yesterday, doing not-so-good. I was mainly concerned with my mulligan descisions that day. For Instance, I lost 2-0 against a friend of mine playing Sneak Attack (he came in 3rd, so I'm actually fine with that), keeping a hand in G1 consisting of an Ensnaring Bridge, 3 lands, a StoP, an SD.Top and a FoW without a blue card. Yes, that hand invalidates Show and Tell, and if I find a blue card (which I didn't), I can counter once (which seems irrlevant, since he mostly has counter-backup anyway). At that time, the hand felt ok, since I don't think we are favoured G1 anyway (lots of dead cards, not enough counters), so having that Bridge seemed pretty good. I lost promtly to a Sneak Attack. G2 I kept an even worse hand of 4 lands, Canonist, Fow, Snapcaster Mage. Canonist is good with counters, since it invalidates their 10-12 counters, so they will never resolve a threat. Well, I played Canonist, he forced, I forced back, now my hand was 3 lands and I lost soon after that. In hindsight, I think there are a lot better 6 cards hands that completely blow him out, since I boarded 9 cards.

Now the real hand in question happend G3 against RUG Tempo. I won G1 after a mull to 6 pretty quickly on the back of CB, and lost G2 to his Delver, Mongoose, all Counters hand. I was on the play and had:

2 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 SD.Top
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Back to Basics

I had early interaction for his threats in the form of StoP (2/3rds of his threats). If he happens to have a Mongoose, at least it takes some time before he starts bashing for 3. The idea was to find another land to get a basic Island in the top three, try to resolve B2B with Pierce backup and win from there. A friend of mine argumented that I should not keep a hand without a "reliable" blue source against RUG. Had the USea been a fetch, yes, that hand would have been better. I still think it's worth keeping, but I'm not sure. When you go down to 6, you can't expect more than 2 lands I think, and if you have duals in them, you will loose to Wasteland even more than the 7 card hand would. On top of that, if he didn't have Wasteland but Stifle instead, the 2 Plains 1 USea mana base is still ok.

Since the top 10 cards of my lib had neither a land nor a shuffle effect (E.Tutor for instance) and he obv. opened with Mongoose and wasted my USea T3, we didn't even have a game.

Nevertheless, I would really like to know if you would mull that hand or not.

[sdematt]

The problem with that hand is this:

Ideally, you drop turn 1 Top and it resolves. Upkeep, you Top and hopefully hit Island. Otherwise, you drop Plains #2 and use Swords if you can. Turn 3, you drop Back to basics. Problem being, you can't use Spell Pierce to protect your Back to Basics. If that hand was Plains Plains Island, you'd be 100% fine.

-Matt

[RPrajzner]

Hey guys. I've been a lurker for a long time over here and this is pretty much my first post (other than advertising a tournament I'm running around the corner). I just Top8ed a local 36-man tournament and wanted to share my decklist with the people here that don't frequent MTG Salvation Forums.


Artifacts: 12
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments: 8
1 humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
4 Counterbalance

Instants: 17
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Future Sight
1 Nevermore
1 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Spell Pierce
1 Swords to Plowshares[/deck]

With 38 players, that meant 6 rounds before Top8 and I’d have to go 4-1-1 to lock it up.

Round 1: Affinity

Game one I have a Bridge in the opener and get it out while I’m at 18 life still. He swings then plays a Plating and next turn he’ll have enough black to equip after swings. On the end step I ETutor for humilty but I’m down one mana to play it. After drawing humility I flip my Top and luckily get the last land to play humility and lock him out of Game1. I think I also Pithing Needled Tezzeret at some point.

Game two I had an early Porphyry Nodes and a Seal of Cleaning which I had to use to kill Phyrexian Revoker before Nodes took care of it so that I wouldn’t die as he just decided to try to power through Nodes. I had my Nevermore in hand and was trying to guess his last card. I either name Krosan Grip to stop that or I name Tez. Since I didn’t have anything else he could Grip and a Tez kills me on the spot. I trade a spot removal or two for his guys, Needle on Cranial Plating to make his Ornithopters useless, then get Jace online and start fatesealing him. That winds up being more than enough as I give him more Platings, Tezs, Ornithopters, and a bunch of permanents that tap for mana.

Affinity is a deck that likes to mulligan aggressively and tries to get lucky. Because they play flying creatures and equipment and Walkers and low power dudes, they’re actually a little tricky to lock out. It helped a lot that this guy was my friend and I knew what he was playing. I do think having Energy Flux is a good card to have in the board because of how versatile the deck is but I’m not packing it. Generally, for me, I would say the plan is to try to get lucky (like Affinity) and hope that you wont even face this matchup. If you can win a few rounds, you’re usually in a position where Affinity isn’t around though I do think the deck is good. I decided before this tournament though that I was going to cut cards from my board that just hose one or two archetypes.

Round 2: Ru Burn

Game one I see Volc, Goblin Guide, Mountain, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide. There’s really no beating that. It’s actually the nuts.

Game two he Thunderous Wraths me after a Brainstorm and burns me a bit. I go for a CB when he’s tapped out, and he then untaps and REBs it. I blind flip and miss, unfortunately. When I have the CoP:Red, I only have 2 life left, and he shows me his burn spell in hand with my CoP on the stack. ☹

Burn I think is kind of a toss-up but it’s so popular that I think it is worth keeping the CoP in the board- especially considering it’s actually pretty versatile. Game 1 was obviously a little unfair and Game 2 was very close. I usually win the boarded games but both ThopterSword and CounterTop are good here so it’s not unwinnable without the CoP. The trick is sometimes just having the right answer. If they have dudes, CBTop wont win it, and Thopter Sword can lose to them having lots of big spells.

Round 3: Burn

Game one I keep a hand half the ThopterSword combo and an ETutor knowing he’s playing burn. He’s got the turn one Goblin Guide but doesn’t throw down two more the next turn. I keep his Goblins and Marauders and Hellsparks at bay once I have the combo online and the game is pretty much wrapped up with me with a Force of Will in hand for backup.

Game two I drop a Counterbalance and a Jace and honestly, that was pretty much enough. I had the CoP:Red in a few turns to prompt the concession but even at that point I was at >10 like at Jace was sitting pretty at ~7.

That’s how the matchup goes more often than not. Many people have opted for no hate cards for Burn and it may be right though Hate is the only thing that’s going to stop their really powerful starts so it can be good to have.

Round 4: TPS

Once I get to the later rounds in the tournament I just always pretend my opponent is playing RUG. I kept 4 lands, Jace, Swords, and CB. After a turn one Delta from my opponent, I still didn’t really know what to expect but a turn two Gemstone and I could figure out what was up. I put my Counterbalance out on my turn two and it was pretty much over from there.

Game two he has turn one Dark Ritual into Inquisition + Defense Grid. His discard spell only has three choices; Ethersworn Cannonist, Counterbalance, and Counterbalance. This game worked out to be pretty much the same after I got the
Counterbalance on board. He played Chrome Mox to try to get me to blind flip. I just let it resolve. Then I let Silence resolve with him with one card in hand, USea untapped, and two LEDs in play. He I wound up sacrificing Thopter Foundry to itself each time I drew it to apply some pressure and the game was over 10 turns later with him unable to combo.

The combo matchups for this deck are honestly just very easy. I rarely test them and manage to do very well each time. The only combo decks that I sometimes have problems with are Elves and Hivemind. The Ethersworn Cannonist in my board is more for those. While it’s not the best against them, it’s still good and it’s just so versatile that you do want it. One important thing to realize against Hivemind in particular is that they have incredible inevitability. Against some decks, you really just want a clock. Likewise, sometimes you just board out all win conditions ☺

Round 5: Dredge

I’m actually pretty sure this guy is playing Dredge since I’d just seen two copies of the deck near the top tables. Game one I’m pretty sure it was simply an Ensnaring Bridge plus Thopter Sword. There was a turn where I tapped out and opened myself to Cabal Therapy on Enlightened Tutor but my opponent didn’t think of that play.

Game two I keep double Spell Pierce get to keep both after his turn one Cabal. His turn two I counter his blue spell and my turn two I get rid of his land with my Wasteland. He’s gotta spend sometime drawing from the top here to refill his hand now. My turn three I lay down a Counterbalance which is huge against Dredge. I spend a turn to play a Foundry and sacrifice it to itself on his endstep, then make this play again, Spell Pierce mana open all the while. Swinging for two here does two things. Firstly, it puts him on a clock. Secondly, it made him make worse plays. When he was at 11 he kept around a pair of Narcomoebas to block before he had too many Bridges. This was probably the right play for him as him loosing his Bridges would ultimately be a loss, and he would have to kill at least on of my guys eventually. Also, Caballing while I had CB in play wasn’t too appealing for him. I Swordsed a Narc, untapped, and ORinged the second, putting him down to ten. Soon I got a Top and then a Bridge, which was protected from Nature’s Claim/Chain of Vapor by CBTop. That was pretty much all I needed to get in the final points of damage, though Karakas was certainly good too.

Dredge is a good matchup and I’m pretty confidant that we need zero hate cards since almost every card in our deck is good against them. You don’t always need to beat them either since decking them is a pretty legitimate strategy. One thing I forgot about during my second game (and my opponent did too) is that he can point Cephalid Coliseum at me to get under a Bridge so it is a legitimate Pithing Needle target. The deck is pretty versatile and honestly, the games against it are actually fun with this deck. That being said, you really need to face a very good pilot to even have a shot at losing. I would recommend playing Dredge a few times yourself so you know what to fear and know what to play around. With CounterThop it REALLY helps to know exactly what game plans other decks will have and one of the best ways to test is actually just picking up other decks and playing them. I’m not incredibly well versed in Dredge but playing it a few times helps me stay calm and realize I really don’t have much of a shot at dying turn one.

Round 6: ID

Top8: UR Delver

Both games were very quick and pretty much the same. He spent his first two turns playing multiple 1-drops and proceeded to only miss one chance to flip, nailing all the others blind. Game two it seemed I had more of a shot but he just let my Bridge resolve since I had four cards in hand and I wasn’t able to use Force of Will so I lost. Maybe I should be Forcing the turn one Delvers more. I don’t know- and I’ve written enough about what I do know already so there should be enough to read there rather than me just guessing.

Some of my thoughts on some recent discussion points you've had here;

@TkDodo- Both of those hands are very good, IMO.
I am a fan of Future Sight, shaving a Spell Pierce so that I could keep it around.
I don't like Cage for the reasons listed above.
I could very well see myself playing Terminus in the future. I don't think it's worth cutting slots for Temp Mastery though. TM seems very much win-more.
I like Spell Pierce over Spell Snare every day. Both are bad against Maverick so I just look at where else they come in. Pierce is much better everywhere else.
Also, Top and ETutor aren't the best non-blue spells in this deck. IMO, They are the best spells, period. They just let you play so many random cards with such consistency and power.

I look forward to joining the discussion!

[Thorondor]

nice report thanks for that one!

conserning your list:
could you see yourself cutting 1 ET, 1 CB, 1 TOP, 1 Expedition Map (is it needed?)
for:
1 STP (you really need that!!)
3 Spell Pierce (or 2 Spell Pierce 1 Spell Snare) or maybe even add 2 Ponder or even Terminus depending on your local meta of course.

you play 18 Blue spells including 4 force, I know this is the minimum requirement but I would feel more comfortable with view more blue spells.

especially for the RUG/UR-Delver matchups you need 4 STP. These are imo the harder matchups and I don't see many good cards against these kind of aggro decks beside CB and your combo which is often too slow or not?

[RPrajzner]

nice report thanks for that one!

conserning your list:
could you see yourself cutting 1 ET, 1 CB, 1 TOP, 1 Expedition Map (is it needed?)
for:
1 STP (you really need that!!)
3 Spell Pierce (or 2 Spell Pierce 1 Spell Snare) or maybe even add 2 Ponder or even Terminus depending on your local meta of course.

you play 18 Blue spells including 4 force, I know this is the minimum requirement but I would feel more comfortable with view more blue spells.

especially for the RUG/UR-Delver matchups you need 4 STP. These are imo the harder matchups and I don't see many good cards against these kind of aggro decks beside CB and your combo which is often too slow or not?

I don't think you can shave ETutor or Top with this deck. They're phenomenal. I can see cutting CB but that's a meta call and it's better than Spell Pierce against the big decks right now.

The fourth Swords is a maindecked Porphyry Nodes for the Delver matchup specifically- though I may move some stuff around to fit more maindeck removal just to put up better numbers there.

[menace13]

I don't think you can shave ETutor or Top with this deck. They're phenomenal. I can see cutting CB but that's a meta call and it's better than Spell Pierce against the big decks right now.

The fourth Swords is a maindecked Porphyry Nodes for the Delver matchup specifically- though I may move some stuff around to fit more maindeck removal just to put up better numbers there.

Nodes is such sick tech for against Mongeese and MoM. Way to go old school with it!

[matunos]

I'm curious on how to effectively use Porphyry Nodes. Do you wait for at least 2 creatures? Is the intent after its out to just slow the opponent down? Is it better than, say, Terminus?

[RPrajzner]

I'm curious on how to effectively use Porphyry Nodes. Do you wait for at least 2 creatures? Is the intent after its out to just slow the opponent down? Is it better than, say, Terminus?

I'm fine running Nodes out against just one creature. Goblin Guide and Delver put you on such a quick clock. Nodes really just helps you develop your mana and get to the midgame. Against Delver, I've found that you really can't just wait around to try and get maximum value out of your cards. I probably wouldn't play it against just a Mongoose though.

Terminus is certainly a sweet card that I will be trying soon!

[matunos]

I'm fine running Nodes out against just one creature. Goblin Guide and Delver put you on such a quick clock. Nodes really just helps you develop your mana and get to the midgame. Against Delver, I've found that you really can't just wait around to try and get maximum value out of your cards. I probably wouldn't play it against just a Mongoose though.

Terminus is certainly a sweet card that I will be trying soon!

In the situations you describe, isn't a StP better?

[Arsenal]

Probably, but E. Tutor gives you "5" Nodes on top of your StPs that may already have been spent/countered.

[TkDodo]

Probably, but E. Tutor gives you "5" Nodes on top of your StPs that may already have been spent/countered.

That sounds very slow. If they have a Delver out, they can make 6 more damage before your upkeep with Nodes out if you have to E.Tutor for it. They can also just play another unflipped Delver / Mongoose to make 9 damage. That's a lot! I think I would rather have the 4th StoP main every day.

[RPrajzner]

Sometimes they will have a hand where they can just power through a Nodes though that's typically only if you're almost dead. Swords is better there. Where Swords isn't better is turns 1-3. Yes, you'll still take some damage but it will also cause them to skip a turn of playing creatures. This extra time makes Nodes playable.

[menace13]

That sounds very slow. If they have a Delver out, they can make 6 more damage before your upkeep with Nodes out if you have to E.Tutor for it. They can also just play another unflipped Delver / Mongoose to make 9 damage. That's a lot! I think I would rather have the 4th StoP main every day.

They only get 1 attack phase not 2. If they do play another creature they are giving up cards to the Nodes. I wouldn't play it over a 4th StP, but it is good in this deck and good against Shroud/protection etc. The Time Walk effect of not playing a creature when Nodes is out isn't bad either. Also you can drop it off SnT untap kill everything(Grissle still draws but w/e)

[matunos]

I dunno. I think I'm just gonna try a Bitterblossom, since I've already got black, and there's some synergy with SotM there.

[Koby]

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

[Piceli89]

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

Pyroclasm and Firespout and still weak-ish when compared to Terminus, if you already run a maindeck configuration that can put them on top quite reliably.
The only advantage is avoiding Gaddock Teeg- in all the other scenarios, Terminus bypasses Mother of Runes, Daze, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, which the other two won't.

I agree though that Pyroblast is such a strong card with Show and Tell and UW Miracle on the rise. In reference to the latter, having a catchall for Jace, Snapcaster, Vendilion, and for every kind of Snare/Cspell/Pierce split gives you a lenghty edge. Thopter combo does the rest, if they don't see it coming.

[matunos]

In light of a recent push by Show and Tell decks, I recommend going back to the Red splash and using Pyroclasm/Firespout as the sweeper. It's weaker against Maverick, but more powerful against Blue combo (REB).

With regard to Sneak Show, if you have Ensnaring Bridge and/or Humility, it is very hard for them to win. The decklist that just won SCG Nashville has 2 soft-outs to permanent-based hate in the SB (Echoing Truth). If you needle or totem Griselbrand, that stops their draw engine as well, decreasing the chances of them drawing one of those outs (and being able to kill you in one turn before you can re-cast it).

The Sneak Show deck that got 2nd place in SCG Orlando had one harder out in the SB in the form of Woodfall Primus, but that's it.

So, I think the standard anti-creature stuff is sufficient, especially considering they're tutorable and drawable in response to SnT (if you have a Top in play). It's Sneak Attack that is more frightening, because it sticks around and resolving a Griselbrand with it is devestating. Against Sneak Attack, BEB/Hydroblast seems sufficient (BEB is better, I think, because it's harder to Misdirect).

[Hanni]

There's also the option of splashing black and using Terminus as the sweeper of choice. 1cc targeted discard is less narrow than REB/BEB/etc and is good in a wide-variety of combo and control matchups. Getting to see the opponent's hand is almost as valuable as discarding their best card. There are other valuable sideboard options in black, too.

[Piceli89]

There's also the option of splashing black and using Terminus as the sweeper of choice. 1cc targeted discard is less narrow than REB/BEB/etc and is good in a wide-variety of combo and control matchups. Getting to see the opponent's hand is almost as valuable as discarding their best card. There are other valuable sideboard options in black, too.


Discarding a card in the control mirror and tapping you out is exactly where you don't want to be. They have 4 Brainstorms, 4 Tops, and Spell Pierce. You negate your own Pierces and they can slam Counterbalance when you're tapped out.
Reactive vs proactive is an unfair fight if your deck does not play the proactive role well. Thopter doesn't at all.
REBs are fantastic counters that essentially trade their 2-3-4 mana for 1 of yours, and are immune to topdeck. They also serve as instant Vindicate, while topdecking a discard spell with a Jace stuck on the field doesn't smell that appealing.
Plus, discarding a Show and Tell is much worse that waiting for them to play it and counter it, if they don't see that coming. You essentially have REBs to counter Show and Tell and CB to lock the cantrips, until ENlightened Tutors arrive and you place 3 ccs and 4 ccs on top. This is quite difficult to assemble against competetent players, but REBs along with Pierces really help a lot in covering you where you are weakest: the first 3 turns.

With the print of Terminus, Black has lost lots of its appeal-which was mainly given by Perish and other quasi-sweeper to shore up the (bad) Maverick matchup. Extirpate isn't really a reason to run a colour, while REBs do stand alone.

To have hand information without playing cards that do not fit the deck's philosophy, Vendilion Clique is still the best weapon avaiable. A singleton Surgical may be fine, too, since it also screws up Counterbalance triggers and Top activations to miracle.

[sdematt]

Cannonist, Clique, Spell Pierce, REB, Gilded Drake, Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage,Pithing Needle, Cursed Totem, and Humility are all cards where you want to be.

We have access to most of these, and all of them if we want it. Drake is ideal (assuming they don't use Sneak attack) since they'll only have Force of Will to counter it (they don't run Snare). Also, if we choose to run Meddling Mage for Show and Tell, forcing them into the Sneak Attack gameplan and forcing them to have to resolve a 4-drop against Pierces and 4 drops in our Counterbalance curve seems saucy.

Cannonist is also the tits. You just wait for Sneak Attack/SnT, then counter it.

-Matt

[mossivo1986]

Im suprised people arnt working on this at all.

[sdematt]

I'm actually writing an article for Eternal Central on this right now.

Feel free to talk, I'll just sit here in the background with my clipboard.

In all honesty, I think going back to the red version is going to be much better going on, Merfolk is back, and REB is required to deal with Show and Tell.

My new list is something like:

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 landy

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

3 Counterblaance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Cursed Totem
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Poryphyry Nodes

1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels (trying these two out)

--BOARD--
1 Ensnaring Bridge (for all the Sneak, but also for Merfolk. So many Lords mean Bridge is a tank)
1 Circle: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Moat
1 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

-Matt

[obituary 95]

I'm actually writing an article for Eternal Central on this right now.

Feel free to talk, I'll just sit here in the background with my clipboard.

In all honesty, I think going back to the red version is going to be much better going on, Merfolk is back, and REB is required to deal with Show and Tell.

My new list is something like:

6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 landy

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

3 Counterblaance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Cursed Totem
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Poryphyry Nodes

1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels (trying these two out)

--BOARD--
1 Ensnaring Bridge (for all the Sneak, but also for Merfolk. So many Lords mean Bridge is a tank)
1 Circle: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Back to Basics
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Moat
1 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Firespout
1 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

-Matt

i have been playing the terminus with two in the main and one in the board and it has been really good. it gives the deck the ability to have a edge against maverick and Canadian threshold. it also has a non zero effect on other match ups like enchantress. i have also been playing entreat the angels , it is slow but it works very well in control mirrors.

[mossivo1986]

The build im playing right now focuses on abusing the extreme synergy this deck has with the miracle spell terminus that has had quite a bit of discussion in various different threads.

after some pretty extensive testing terminus and swords are really all this deck needs for removal at this point, as both win conditions offer aggro disruption as well.

My current list is as follows.


4x top
4x brainstorm
3x jace the mind sculpter
3x enlightened tutor
4x force
3x counterbalance
2x counterspell
4x swords to plowshares
4x terminus
1x humility
1x ensnaring bridge
2x thopter foundry
1x sword of the meek
1x land tax
1x graffdiggers cage

grafdiggers is the one piece the im still feeling slightly uncomfortable with because its so difficult to judge if you can actually pick up on if your opponent is playing reanimator. when theyre not its just dead most of the time. Im thinking it might become nihil spellbomb. atleast then it replaces itself and retains the 1cc as well as limits them. the problem is its a temporary answer. Im just not sure at the present time.

terminus is the real deal. Land tax replaces crucible, because crucible is hella slow right now, and land tax fights all the fair decks, which is nice. Merfolk is on the rise, and I look forward to smoking them all with terminus. If reanimator dies down then ill proboble read future site and or needle. We will see I guess as the meta developes itself.

The board I have is just adjusted to the different things ive seen in the metagame, along with my usual bombs against certain archtypes. I see alot of people playing random silver bullet answers from the board, that just arnt that good.

There seems to be this argument that spell pierce is a better option then snare at the present time. Let me make this abundantly clear. You will be losing. This deck is designed to gain permanent control via counterbalance and other pieces. The counter magic used in this deck is to either -A- keep the board clear once those pieces are in place. If your casting your permission before your pieces land, you have to have the pieces in hand, and then your not really developing like you should. don't be afraid to take some damage, as your gaining incremental advantage with your pieces every turn they stick.

Ive also noticed myself being very aggressive for the combo much earlier. It seems like against the fair decks, its REALLY difficult for them to adjust to our current strategies. Let me know if any of you choose to pick this up and test it.

[sdematt]

I'll give it a test and let you know what I think.

-Matt

[sdematt]

A very close adaptation of my list did well (3rd place) at a GPT for Ghent in Finland:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8599&iddeck=62749

Thopters by Janne Nousiainen

3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

1 Cursed Totem
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Humility
1 Sword of the Meek

6 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
1 Seat of the Synod

--BOARD--

4 Spell Pierce
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

-Matt

[mossivo1986]

So in my testing today i dropped cage again from the main in favor of needle. But im starting to get greedy and I want to play EE. Needle is clearly the better metagame choice as vial decks are popping up again.

The maindeck feels alright solid. i re added the fourth tundra, as you always want to start with fetch or tundra. You want to have maximum range for brainstorm swords terminus. I think counterspell needs to go down to 1, but im not sure. Ill have to do yet more testing. Im diggin the list though.

Im noticing alot of people want to purposefully miss land drops if I tax early. This absolutely makes me want to wasteland them for their ignorance. Im wondering if this is the right call.

[Iron Buddha]

So in my testing today i dropped cage again from the main in favor of needle. But im starting to get greedy and I want to play EE. Needle is clearly the better metagame choice as vial decks are popping up again.
Pithing Needle is great, but I'd say EE actually does the same thing as Needle, but is just better in general, e.g. you can board it in against Tempo Thresh.


There seems to be this argument that spell pierce is a better option then snare at the present time. Let me make this abundantly clear. You will be losing. This deck is designed to gain permanent control via counterbalance and other pieces. The counter magic used in this deck is to either -A- keep the board clear once those pieces are in place. If your casting your permission before your pieces land, you have to have the pieces in hand, and then your not really developing like you should. don't be afraid to take some damage, as your gaining incremental advantage with your pieces every turn they stick.
I don't quite understand your point against Spell Pierce. My reasoning is that Spell Pierce is the perfect card to have against Show and Tell, Reanimator, opposing Counterbalance and Planeswalkers.

[mossivo1986]

show and tell shouldn't be a problem for this archetype.

Counterbalance isn't a large enough portion of the field to warrant playing maindeck hate for it.

they key to beating reanimator is not one shot permission spells. its playing a perm. that they have to answer, or get overrun by counterbalance top

the argument shouldn't be which is better for the meta game pierce or snare. the argument should be, whats better for me, in order to maintain control as I develop. Counter spell is ideal in this scenario. Its a 2 drop for cb, a solid 1-1 thats universally good, and it holds value as the game progress, where as pierce does not, and in fact is dead in the mid-late game, and snare is very limited in what it handles.

[sdematt]

I'm running, instead of 3 actual Counterspell, 1 Counterspell 1 Mana Leak 1 Spell Pierce. Why? Counterspell early on is hard on the mana, especially since we're usually fetching all basics. Pierce is decent, and Mana Leak is hard counter for 1 -drops until Turn 4, so it's still good for most crap into the late game, and people don't expect it. The Pierce is there just for random cheap stuff.

My friend and I were rebuilding last night and have decided to run:

5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
1 volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
23 (Switched 1 Island for Karakas)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Terminus
20

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
7

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Humility
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
11

--BOARD--

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Moat
1 Poryphry Nodes
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Oblivion Ring/EE #2

-Matt

[Iron Buddha]

show and tell shouldn't be a problem for this archetype.

Counterbalance isn't a large enough portion of the field to warrant playing maindeck hate for it.

they key to beating reanimator is not one shot permission spells. its playing a perm. that they have to answer, or get overrun by counterbalance top

the argument shouldn't be which is better for the meta game pierce or snare. the argument should be, whats better for me, in order to maintain control as I develop. Counter spell is ideal in this scenario. Its a 2 drop for cb, a solid 1-1 thats universally good, and it holds value as the game progress, where as pierce does not, and in fact is dead in the mid-late game, and snare is very limited in what it handles.
Yeah, I agree.
The proactive gameplan of this deck is much more reliable and powerful than a reactive one with loads of Spell Pierce, so we should focus on the former.

[mossivo1986]

After testing with my friends and running an online gauntlet ive cut the counterspells from my list.

1. Counterbalance should he all you need to close out games where counterspell could and should be relivent. Hands where you have any form of counter other then force are hands youd rather just have another proactive card or universal answer.

2. When you do have use for it, too many times your spending mana on ur turn or holding for something better to

With this logic I tried sdematts 3/1 combo split, along with ee in the main. Ive added a volc to the board for matchups where you need an answer to jace and I really like the idea. I did cutt the grafdiggers cage bc the card is virtually untutorable in most situations do to its lack of actually doing anything for the investment.

[mossivo1986]

So hey all. I know its been a minute, and I can see most of you are interested in other decks or busy at the moment, but I thought id update you on what ive worked on and for sure cemented so far.

the three thopter plan is without a doubt where I want to be at. Nice call matt. I dont miss countermagic really at all, as its not really what we are trying to do atm.

As for the board, im still missing four slots, and thats mainly due to metagaming and im missing a few things that im not sure about via I just need some more testing against the combo decks in the format.

// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [TE] Humility
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [AVR] Terminus
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [LG] Land Tax
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Warmth
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [B] Volcanic Island
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 [ON] Future Sight
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Cannonist
SB: 2 Envelop

Anyway hope to hear some feedback on thoughts.

[Justin]

I hate to be that guy, but I'm wondering whether the printing of Entreat the Angels doesn't make this deck inferior to UW Miracle. Both UW Thopters and UW Miracle play mostly the same cards: Top, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Jace 2.0, Counterspell (or whatever countermagic), and now even Terminus. About 46-50 of the spells in both decks are the same.

The differences are that ThopterTop runs Enlightened Tutor, Sword/Foundry combo, and some silver bullets. Miracle runs Snapcaster, Clique, and Entreat the Angels instead. The key difference is the major win condition. I'm not sure why I would want to play the Sword/Foundry combo when I could just play Entreat the Angels. Sword and Foundry are a two-card combo and more difficult to assemble than Entreat the Angels, which is one card.

I also notice recent Thopters lists are cutting tutors and making Foundry/Sword a 2/1 split (when more players did a more consistant 3/2 split in the past) to make room for Terminus. Terminus seems much stronger in Miracle builds, which are not nearly as tight as Thopters builds and can easily fit in four without dilluding the deck. I also like that you can Clique yourself to get Miracle cards out of your hand.

The most compelling reason that I can think of to run Thopters over Miarcle is the ability to tutor for the silver bullets. However, I don't like that Enlightened Tutor leads to card disadvantage. Furthermore, Miracle runs spells that Thopters doesn't that lead to card advantage (Snapcaster) or virtual card advantage (Clique).

So can anyone present a strong case as to why a control player would want to play this deck over the UW Miracle deck that is currently among the Decks to Beat in Legacy?

[xfxf]

I think I can take Justin's argument a step further and argue that while UWb Blade has a better aggro/tribal matchup with Batterskull, Jitte and Perish and a better combo matchup with SCM and discard than UW Miracles, why would you play UW Miracles over UWb Blade? Following that argument it seems to me that UW Thopters < UW Miracles < UWb Blade in terms of UW control but I could be wrong. I would very much like to hear arguments why any other UW deck in the format should be preferable over the current Esperblade deck.

[Justin]

I think I can take Justin's argument a step further and argue that while UWb Blade has a better aggro/tribal matchup with Batterskull, Jitte and Perish and a better combo matchup with SCM and discard than UW Miracles, why would you play UW Miracles over UWb Blade? Following that argument it seems to me that UW Thopters < UW Miracles < UWb Blade in terms of UW control but I could be wrong. I would very much like to hear arguments why any other UW deck in the format should be preferable over the current Esperblade deck.

That's an interesting take. I do agree that SFM into Batterskull is relatively easy to assemble than Sword/Foundry. However, I don't want to derail this thread by getting into an Esper Blade vs. UW Miracle debate. This is the Thopter thread, afterall. I think this would be an interesting new topic for another forum, and which is the best UW or UWx control deck in the format.

But as I said, I think the most compelling reason to play Thopers is Enlightened Tutor and the package of silver bullets. I suppose that one could argue that having access to Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat makes this deck strong against non-blue aggro builds. Running a single Grafdigger's Cage or Pithing Needle can give this deck an advatage against certain decks that Esper Blade and Miracle don't have. The problem is when you resolve a Tutor and then get your silver bullet countered by an opposing blue deck. You've just been two-for-oned and didn't resolve the spell that you needed. And as we know, there is a lot of blue in Legacy.

[obituary 95]

I have been playing the deck recently and I have a question. why are we still playing ensnaring bridge? the ensnaring bridge seems to do the same thing that terminus does but has the added risk of being blown up. after testing there seems to be no match-ups(other than merfolk) that I would rather have bridge than terminus.

[matunos]

I have been playing the deck recently and I have a question. why are we still playing ensnaring bridge? the ensnaring bridge seems to do the same thing that terminus does but has the added risk of being blown up. after testing there seems to be no match-ups(other than merfolk) that I would rather have bridge than terminus.

Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hypergensis...

[mossivo1986]

Bridge is hands down relevant in plenty of match-ups.

Some of you have mentioned Uw Miracles, as well as Uwb stoneblade, so i'll address it.

Thopter foundry is excellent versus most of the legacy format, excluding a few decks. On the contrary Entreet the angels is just a bad card. It's an exciting decree of justice that actually just sucks balls to open in a starting hand worse then terminus or virtually any other miracle spell that I can think of. Sure it CAN win you the game, but in reality, how many more times are you getting blown out by a daze, or something of that nature. Thopter is fragile, but the benefit is that the combo is much much more powerful, and easier to invest in at virtually any stage of the game.

snapcasters not card advantage, its either nothing at all, a kantrip, a 187, or a tempo counter. None of these things equate to direct card advantage. Now if you snapcaster an fof, that's actual card advantage. If anything snapsters permanent advantage.

if you counter my e tutor target, its not directly a 2-1, and in many cases bluffing an e tutor target is an excellent way to win games.

E tutor overall is an EXCELLENT card, and the reason this deck is playable and very good.

Uw miracles is a fine arch-type, I just choose to play the arch-type with more utility, and I personally think thopter foundry is very strong right now because humility is SUCH a blowout.

[mossivo1986]

// Lands
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [TE] Humility
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [AVR] Terminus
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [LG] Land Tax
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TE] Warmth
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [B] Volcanic Island
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 [ON] Future Sight
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Im thinking a slot for the show and tell omniscience deck IE disenchant enchantment may be necessary.

[sdematt]

I played Thopters last night at the local tournament, and went 2-1-1.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Tomb (very good all tournament)
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
4 Enlightened Tutor

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

--BOARD--

2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Poryphry Nodes
1 Moat
1 circle of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring

Round 1: Nixon with RUG Delver

These two games were over pretty quick. In both, I was usually a turn behind locking him out of the game.

In Game 1, I end up landing an Ensnaring Bridge against an active Delver and small Nimble Mongoose, but he had already burned me quite a bit, and countered some removal. I manage to land Bridge to keep the Aberration out, but he pumps the Goose after getting the attack online. I search for Sword of the Meek with Thopter Foundry on board, but I have only 4 mana. He EOT Bolts me down to 3. He mainphase Bolts again, I counterspell, but he has Force of Will and another Burn spell.

In Game 2, I attempt to land Bridge and Bridge turn after turn, but both get countered (I attempt #2 since #1 got countered), but he had double Force of Will, with mana open against my Spell Pierce. Boo.

0-1

Round 2: Alex with Dredge

Game 1, I end up getting Jace, Counterbalance, Top, and Thopter Foundry online, but never see ANYTHING else. I sit there until he ends up slow grinding Zombies out at me from Ichorids dying EOT and bringing tokens with Bridge form Below.

Board in: 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Moat, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Spell Pierce

Out: 3 Counterbalance, 3 Force of Will (I know he's non-LED Dredge)

In Game Two, I get Bridge on Turn 2, followed by Combo on Turn 3. He concedes.

In Game 3, I lock him out with Grafdigger's Cage on turn 2 (t1 E. tutor) and then drop Moat. Good game, sirs.

1-1

Round 3: James with Doomsday

Game 1, he ends up killing me with Lab Maniac through my 2 Force of Wills and Swords to Plowshares. Boo!

Board in: 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Cannonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt

Out: -2 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Thopter Foundry, -2 Terminus

In Game 2, he drops Turn 2 double Dark Confidant, whereas I drop T3 Humility into 2 active Dark Confidants. We fight over it, but I win the battle. He starts beating for 2, while I drop Jace and Swords one of them. Eventually, I get a Thopter Foundry up and create a blocker against him. He ends up casting Doomsday 3 times, since he has to create piles to play around Humility. He tries Chain of Vapour, but I have Counterbalance and float 1. He creates a Shelldock Pile and gets Emrakul and Maniac out, but doesn't have Humility removal. We go to time and into turns, and I search for artifacts to sacrifice to Thopter Foundry to attack for lethal. I kill him by bouncing his 1/1 Emrakul and sending in 3 tokens for the kill, but he draws, and decides not to give me the 2-0.

1-1-1

Round 4: Brandon with Goblins

Not much to say here. I 2-0 him since this deck shits on Goblins.

Overall, 2-1-1. I'm happy, but RUG definitely isn't out best matchup.

-Matt

[obituary 95]

how many terminus should we run? I have seen lists that have four and some that are all the way down to two. I have been running three but I am tempted to go to four. any thoughts?

[matunos]

snapcasters not card advantage, its either nothing at all, a kantrip, a 187, or a tempo counter. None of these things equate to direct card advantage. Now if you snapcaster an fof, that's actual card advantage. If anything snapsters permanent advantage.


I have to disagree with you somewhat here. Snapcaster is card advantage because he lets you cast a spell (a card) again when you normally wouldn't be able to, while still getting a (small) flashable body on the board.

All of the things you mention above except for "nothing at all" are examples of card advantage. For example, if you're Snapcaster lets you flashback a cantrip, you just cast a cantrip that wasn't in your hand in addition to getting a 2/1 creature. The 2/1 flash creature for 2cmc may not be fantastic by itself (although he makes a good surprise blocker), but even so, you got the equivalent of two cards from it.

We can split hairs over whether one should call it "card advantage" or "permanent advantage" (I'm presuming what you mean here is that it's usually the flashbacked spell that's more important, and then you got a free 2/1 creature out of it), but what's the point in that debate?



if you counter my e tutor target, its not directly a 2-1, and in many cases bluffing an e tutor target is an excellent way to win games.

E tutor overall is an EXCELLENT card, and the reason this deck is playable and very good.


Folks rarely counter E Tutor (unless you're doing it to counterbalance something) itself. If they're sitting on a counter, they're more likely to counter whatever it is you're tutoring for, with some situational exceptions (like, an EOT tutor they can Spell Pierce while you're tapped out to pay).

Tutor is good with Ensnaring Bridge, when the card disadvantage actually plays to your favor (FoW is also good with Ensnaring Bridge for the same reason). It's also a good way to get cards to the top of your deck for Counterbalance triggers. Other than that, it's good when the value of the card you're tutoring for is greater than the card disadvantage of the spell (SDT also helps mitigate). I'm just stating the obvious, though. A CounterTop deck with Ensnaring Bridge should definitely not be afraid of Enlightened Tutor.

[Justin]

I'll just say a few more things about my concerns about CounterTop Thopters. The list was pretty tight even before Terminus was printed. Now that we have a one mana Wrath of God, players have been trying to jam it into their lists. But really, what do you cut for it from your pre-Avacyn Restored list? I've noticed people cutting e-tutors, combo pieces, countermagic, etc. Adding Terminus helps against creature decks, but it was weakens the ability of this deck to tutor for what it needs and assemble its combo pieces. Terminus sort of fulfills the same function as Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Humility, etc. in that they are all used to stop the other player from killing you with creatures. The printing of Terminus makes me think that decks with these particular artifacts and enchantments aren't necessary. You can just run four Terminus and cut your e-tutors and silver bullets to make room for other spells. You can also cut Sword/Foundry for Entreat the Angels, since the former are only playable with e-tutor.

Bottom line, is that the current decklists seem too tight. I'll use sdematt's list as an example. He's only running two Terminus, and is short a FOW, a Top, a SB, and a Sword in what I would consider to be ideal. I like mossivo1986's list a little better, as he finds room for four Terminus. However, the deck is light on countermagic, relying totally on four FOW and three CB. He also cuts a tutor. UW Miracle lists are not as tight and can easily fit in four Terminus and additional (non-FOW) countermagic, and thus seems a better choice to me.

[sdematt]

That was a typo, I'm back up to 4 Tops.

-Matt

[kiblast]

I'll just say a few more things about my concerns about CounterTop Thopters. The list was pretty tight even before Terminus was printed. Now that we have a one mana Wrath of God, players have been trying to jam it into their lists. But really, what do you cut for it from your pre-Avacyn Restored list? I've noticed people cutting e-tutors, combo pieces, countermagic, etc. Adding Terminus helps against creature decks, but it was weakens the ability of this deck to tutor for what it needs and assemble its combo pieces. Terminus sort of fulfills the same function as Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Humility, etc. in that they are all used to stop the other player from killing you with creatures. The printing of Terminus makes me think that decks with these particular artifacts and enchantments aren't necessary. You can just run four Terminus and cut your e-tutors and silver bullets to make room for other spells. You can also cut Sword/Foundry for Entreat the Angels, since the former are only playable with e-tutor.

Bottom line, is that the current decklists seem too tight. I'll use sdematt's list as an example. He's only running two Terminus, and is short a FOW, a Top, a SB, and a Sword in what I would consider to be ideal. I like mossivo1986's list a little better, as he finds room for four Terminus. However, the deck is light on countermagic, relying totally on four FOW and three CB. He also cuts a tutor. UW Miracle lists are not as tight and can easily fit in four Terminus and additional (non-FOW) countermagic, and thus seems a better choice to me.

Coming from a newbie of the deck (played to death UWx Landstill, Landeed, Caw Cartel, but Thopers just for few games) isn't 4 Terminus a bit overkill? (I'd ideally stick with 2) considering that one of your wincon (the thopter combo) just rapes aggro by itself?

Moreover, since you are a Countertop deck, isn't 4 6cc drops kind of fucking your curve? I'd like to have more 3cc and 4cc in the form of Humility/MOat and/or E-Bridge since they are not only more than decent hosers for Aggro strategies, but also they provide decent cc's for your CB Curve, specially when facing the Control matchup where 3ccs and 4ccs are critical since you can counter Planeswalkers, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Oblivion Ring and V-Cliques.
Again, this coming from a kind of newbie of the deck.

[mossivo1986]

In my testing I found that adding moree countermagic didnt help in the current metagame. I have always played 3x tutor in my list, and havent ever needed four except in certain matchups, ie whoch is y my fourth is in the board for now.

To kiblast. yes terminus hurts the cb curve, funny thing though. Flipping a terminus often says, fml for your opponent.

[mossivo1986]

Also this business about tight lists is false. I chose not to play countermagic, not I couldnt.

[Justin]

There is a drawback in not running enough countermagic. It is that your matchups against other decks (that run more countermagic than you) get weaker. It becomes tougher to stop combo and you will be unlikely to win "counterwars" against other control decks and combo decks that run permission. Ideally, I would like to see this deck run 4 FOW, 4 CB, and three other countermagic (Spell Pierce, Counterspell, Spell Snare or whatever).

Cutting those countermagic slots for Terminus does give an advantage against aggro and creature-based decks, so that might be the right call in the right meta. Against a control mirror and UWx decks like Miracle, Stoneblade, and other Thopter builds, you will be at a distinct disadvantage if you are light on countermagic. Those matchups generally come down to who can stick their CounterTop combo or who can resolve a Jace or other win condition. So it usually comes down to who wins those counterwars.

[mossivo1986]

There is a drawback in not running enough countermagic. It is that your matchups against other decks (that run more countermagic than you) get weaker.


This just isn't true. Alot of the major countermagic in this format are tempo counterspells like daze, spell pierce etc. Mostly irrelivent. on the occasion that you do face a deck with lots of hard counters, counterspell, counterbalance, etc. you have E.E., terminus to buy you time, academy ruins and thopter foundry to run over them. The plan against these style of decks is to just go for the combo right from the get go.


It becomes tougher to stop combo and you will be unlikely to win "counterwars" against other control decks and combo decks that run permission. Ideally, I would like to see this deck run 4 FOW, 4 CB, and three other countermagic (Spell Pierce, Counterspell, Spell Snare or whatever).

This WAS the old way of doing things. Back when I first started toying with the deck I ran

4 force
3 counterspell
3 counterbalance
2 snares?

As the metagame had changed the archtype has followed. No longer can we rely on our draw go roots, and instead need to evolve into a tapout control style deck.


Cutting those countermagic slots for Terminus does give an advantage against aggro and creature-based decks, so that might be the right call in the right meta. Against a control mirror and UWx decks like Miracle, Stoneblade, and other Thopter builds, you will be at a distinct disadvantage if you are light on countermagic.

If you'd like to test on mws I would enjoy testing against you.

[pechunato]

I picked the deck up again after some time, here are some thoughts:

1) I added a single Thirst for Knowledge as Brainstorm #5 to get rid of dead cards, it also comboes well with all the artifacts the deck runs and Academy Ruins. It's been working fine so far.

2) I don't find Counterbalance as effective as I'd like it to be, so I had this crazy idea of playing only 1 or 2 copies and tutor for it to seal the endgame; as if it was another silver bullet, rather than my main way of countering spells. I wasn't able to test yet, but maybe someone else is having the same issues with this card?


Another thing I'm going to try is Expedition Map, and to get the most of it, I thought of a few utility lands that may be useful:

Bojuka Bog: against graveyard strategies or recurring cards
Karakas: vs Show and Tell, Thalia, etc
Wasteland/Dust Bowl: to get rid of problematic lands like Academy Ruins, Cavern of Souls, etc
Academy Ruins: mainly for Engineered Explosives lock (and recover countered/destroyed artifacts)
Tolarian West: functions as an additional copy of another utility land, fetches Engineered Explosives and, althought slow, turns Enlightened Tutor into Engineered Explosives lock (Enlightened Tutor->Expedition Map->Academy Ruins->Expedition Map->Tolarian West->Engineered Explosives)

I have never played with Expedition Map, so maybe someone with more experience can help me here; but I think I would play Karakas, Wasteland and Academy Ruins at the very least. I don't think these lands would make the manabase vulnerable.

[Spawnk]

Hey guys. I just started playing with this deck and I love it. I love the play style I love how it works. I had a few questions for the more experienced players of this deck though

1) Ashnod's Altar I thought of adding this card as a cool little trick to go infinite with the sword foundry. And input?
2) 3 or 4 tops? Ive seen many lists running different amounts
3) Would you guys think splashing black for Cabal Therapy could work? I mean you practically have an infinite amount of creatures why not?

[Oiolosse]

Hey guys. I just started playing with this deck and I love it. I love the play style I love how it works. I had a few questions for the more experienced players of this deck though

1) Ashnod's Altar I thought of adding this card as a cool little trick to go infinite with the sword foundry. And input?
In my experience, if the combo needs to be assembled for the card in question to be useful then it's not at all worth including. It will be dead and the fact that you can't pitch it matters as well.

2) 3 or 4 tops? Ive seen many lists running different amounts
I personally prefer 4 tops and 3 Counterbalance. It's amazing with and without CB.

3) Would you guys think splashing black for Cabal Therapy could work? I mean you practically have an infinite amount of creatures why not?
See my response to 1)

[sdematt]

I think what we need to basically look at with this deck is see what we're going to beat Miracles, since it's been heavily played. It's essentially the mirror match, and whoever hits Counterbalance is probably going to win. Thopter Combo straight up beats them, but we may need to adapt a bit to their game. Even though they have some dead cards, let's do a little brainstorming for this matchup.


Sorry I can't say more, I'm off to class.

-Matt

[Spawnk]

I think what we need to basically look at with this deck is see what we're going to beat Miracles, since it's been heavily played. It's essentially the mirror match, and whoever hits Counterbalance is probably going to win. Thopter Combo straight up beats them, but we may need to adapt a bit to their game. Even though they have some dead cards, let's do a little brainstorming for this matchup.


Sorry I can't say more, I'm off to class.

-Matt

I think discard. Hymn could be very punishing in this match up.

[sdematt]

Hymn to Tourach in UWx CounterThopters? I'm not sure we can/should support it.

-Matt

[Spawnk]

We could side out o ring game two for nevermore calling entreat

[Koby]

Or play Ensnaring Bridge / EE as those both answer Angel tokens, and 90% of Legacy's creatures/permanents.

[Spawnk]

Yea, you're right. I'm just thinking of direct answers to entreat. that's really all they have on us. Is that going off first.

[Piceli89]

..Or just play Miracle Control ourselves pushing dead/specific cards to the minimum and differing from traditional lists just for core cards and the Thopter Combo.


2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Seat of the Synod
2 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
1 Karakas


SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist


Humility in the sideboard because it's really required only in the Goblin and Maverick matchup; otherwise, Ensnaring Bridge alone (with double Ruins, because EE+ Ruins means victory against Miracle Control) may hold off several decks pre-board.

Snapcaster Mage is too good to be renounced, since it makes off for the card disadvantage Etutor provides, as well as recycling spot removals and soft counters.
The single Clique is there because most of the blue-based matchups nowadays revolve around clearing the path to stick Jace- or Thopter foundry, in this case. Clique evades Spell Pierce and, again, is a powerhouse I can't just skip to play another clunky sorcery-speed nail this deck is already full of.

This list is the most tailored to behave well in the current metagame (at least the European one). Perhaps the 3rd Foundry could find a slot, but I don't like cards that do nothing on their own, prefering to maximize efficiency and balance between all-good cards with a little room for specific solutions/combo cards.

One last thing I already mentioned some time ago: the red splash is all-around the best, because pyroblast is a mandatory card to hit Snapcaster, Jace, Clique and CB, as well as being spot removal #5-#7 against Threshold. It is by far the best sideboard card in Legacy as of now, with Sulfur Elemental being strictly the second, since he can be pretty much sided in anywhere (from Thresh to combo to the Miracle mirror) as he does too much things in just one card. Evades counters, kills Mongeese, kills Elspeth, shuts off half Maverick, Lingering Souls (if anyone is still playing that), and so on. Kind of an all-star card this deck needs.

Everyone claiming that black still has to offer powerful options to a UWx Counterbalance deck is clearly a bullshiter, or doesn't have a grasp on how to play the mirror control. Still, I don't know if it is really better than the Entreat the Angels counterpart, because it tends to suffer a multi-angled hate postboard that makes Thopter combo often a liability and pushes to transform it into a quasi-artifact-less version. Many matchups are so tight that you don't want to topdeck Foundry or Sword alone, while you'd much rather have straight Jace better protected (more counters) or more Snap-Cliques. Justin nailed this issue pretty much some posts ago.

[obituary 95]

..Or just play Miracle Control ourselves pushing dead/specific cards to the minimum and differing from traditional lists just for core cards and the Thopter Combo.


2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Seat of the Synod
2 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
1 Karakas


SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist


Humility in the sideboard because it's really required only in the Goblin and Maverick matchup; otherwise, Ensnaring Bridge alone (with double Ruins, because EE+ Ruins means victory against Miracle Control) may hold off several decks pre-board.

Snapcaster Mage is too good to be renounced, since it makes off for the card disadvantage Etutor provides, as well as recycling spot removals and soft counters.
The single Clique is there because most of the blue-based matchups nowadays revolve around clearing the path to stick Jace- or Thopter foundry, in this case. Clique evades Spell Pierce and, again, is a powerhouse I can't just skip to play another clunky sorcery-speed nail this deck is already full of.

This list is the most tailored to behave well in the current metagame (at least the European one). Perhaps the 3rd Foundry could find a slot, but I don't like cards that do nothing on their own, prefering to maximize efficiency and balance between all-good cards with a little room for specific solutions/combo cards.

One last thing I already mentioned some time ago: the red splash is all-around the best, because pyroblast is a mandatory card to hit Snapcaster, Jace, Clique and CB, as well as being spot removal #5-#7 against Threshold. It is by far the best sideboard card in Legacy as of now, with Sulfur Elemental being strictly the second, since he can be pretty much sided in anywhere (from Thresh to combo to the Miracle mirror) as he does too much things in just one card. Evades counters, kills Mongeese, kills Elspeth, shuts off half Maverick, Lingering Souls (if anyone is still playing that), and so on. Kind of an all-star card this deck needs.

Everyone claiming that black still has to offer powerful options to a UWx Counterbalance deck is clearly a bullshiter, or doesn't have a grasp on how to play the mirror control. Still, I don't know if it is really better than the Entreat the Angels counterpart, because it tends to suffer a multi-angled hate postboard that makes Thopter combo often a liability and pushes to transform it into a quasi-artifact-less version. Many matchups are so tight that you don't want to topdeck Foundry or Sword alone, while you'd much rather have straight Jace better protected (more counters) or more Snap-Cliques. Justin nailed this issue pretty much some posts ago.

1)I have tried this idea multiple of times with a multiple of different iterations and it has lots of problems. 1) you will get to the point that the game goes long and you have the opponent locked . and instead of finding your combo pieces you will find a nice entreat the angel. and then you will kill them with it. this actually happens quite a bit till you get to the point where you realize that you have built a worse miracle deck, even though thopter does add something that something is usually not enough to justify what you are trying to achieve.

2) enlightened tutor does not put miracles on top of your deck. you will sometimes have opening hands of 1 e tutor 1 terminus 1 entreat 3 land 1 counterbalance. at this point you have basically mulled down to five with out trying. also in my experiences miracles are consisitantly inconsistent. you will; find them when you want them and not when you need them

3) also thopter combo is not particularly amazing right now especially with the printing of abrupt decay.

response to post in general
1) I have never understood why we constantly want to jam ensnaring bridge into every list of this deck ever. look the cards good and all but it is situational . its awesome when your opponent has creatures but sucks when the board is empty. it also sucks when you are playing against other control decks. another thing about the card is that it only hits creatures 100 percent of the time against a few match-ups namely show and tell decks and merfolk. even though it can have great effect on the board when it hits it hits such a small swath of decks in the meta that I would rather play the card in the sideboard rather than the main

2) we are a Permanate based deck why are you playing snapcaster mage. the mage is not card advantage and the reason (I believe) are on the page before this one.

3) you need more 3cc spell for the counterbalence curve.


I think what we need to basically look at with this deck is see what we're going to beat Miracles, since it's been heavily played. It's essentially the mirror match, and whoever hits Counterbalance is probably going to win. Thopter Combo straight up beats them, but we may need to adapt a bit to their game. Even though they have some dead cards, let's do a little brainstorming for this match-up.


Sorry I can't say more, I'm off to class.

-Matt
I agree , I have been trying our a lot of different things. the thing that has served me the best is cursed scroll to the face every turn. it can also keep jtms in check.


thoughts

how and why you build the deck a certain way is much more important than how you play the deck.( playing matters just not as much) how you build your deck will determine what cards can disrupt your combos. for instance if you build your curve to have higher cc it will have a higher chance to hit grip ( if the card is still played)

A challenge for this deck in the future is how we raise our curve. we have great spells at the lower casting costs but the spells at 3 casting cost sort of suck.

another thing that I want to address is the idea of enlightened tutor being card disadvantage, it is . we should not care. the cards we are tutoring for usually has enough of an impact that the fact that we have just generated card " disadvantage" does not matter very much. I seem to hear this comment a lot and it seems like people are valuing card advantage far to highly. this is not the early 90's when card advantage was king.

[sanchezoe]

Hello

I have just recently gotten into magic through a close friend who chose to start me off with a counter top thopter deck. I love playing it and have been looking online recently to see the different builds. Now I like magic, but I refuse to drop 20 dollars plus on a card. I was hoping to get some advice on some cheap alternatives for some of the cards commonly played in this deck. For instance, all the dual lands and force of wills. I will include here a list of the cards I currently own and I would very much enjoy hearing suggestions.

creatures
stoneforge mysticX1
Steel HellkiteX1
Mentor of the MeekX1
PeacekeeperX1

Sorcery/instant
Swords to PlowsharesX4
Hindering LightX2
CounterspellX2
FabricateX3
BrainstormX4
TerminusX3
Agivian FindX1
Enlightened TutorX2
Entreat the AngelsX1
Oblivion RingX1

Artifacts/Enchantments
Sensei's Divining TopX3
Sword of the MeekX2
Ensnaring BridgeX1
Cranial PlatingX2
Thopter FoundryX3

Basic Land
IslandX6
PlainX7

Non-Basic Land
Seat of SynodX1
Burial RuinsX2
Glacier FortressX4
Evolving WildsX3


My deck is set this way currently due to the fact I play my wife most of the time and playing with counter balances makes it not very enjoyable for her.

Here are the rest of the cards I own that I play around with

Sorcery/instant
Spell SnareX1
Oblivian Ring X2
DisenchantX3
FabricateX1
Spell PierceX4
FabricateX1
Agivian FindX1
CounterspellX2

creatures
Phrexian MetamorphX2
Trinket MageX1
Lone RevenantX1

Artifacts/Enchantments
Tormod's CryptX2
Pithing NeedleX2
MeekstoneX2
Sword of the MeekX1
Serra's BlessingX1
Curse of ExhaustionX1
Elixir of ImmortalityX2
Oblivian Ring X2
Aura of SilenceX2
KismetX1
Island SanctuaryX2
CounterbalanceX3

I am working slowly but surely on getting the last 2 enlightened tutors. I am thinking of getting two tezzerets as well. I am looking at humility as well. Thanks in advance for the help!

[thefreakaccident]

Misdirection is very limited, but is relatively cheap, and can sometimes provide added advantages that FoW cannot (i.e. against board control elements). Misdirection also helps to protect against countermagic in a similar way as force of will... The problem is that it cannot deal with critters, or non-targeted effects.

[Oiolosse]

@Sanchezoe

I would move this to the Budget Forum honestyly. CounterTop Thopters isn't an inexpensive deck, especially if you ever choose to splash a third color.

But lemme take a look:

1. Where is Counterbalance, did you leave this out on accident?
EDIT: I see, makes sense. The very rare moments my wife plays with me I always play a shitty creature deck since she gets a kick out of attacking and doing little kid things...like, she thought Timbermare was THE SHIT.

2. I would cut Mentor of the Meek for more countermagic or another O-Ring

3. You have enough search/filter with Fabricate, E-Tutor, Brainstorm, top that I would cut the second Sword and both Platings for more utility

4. I have never used Hindering Light, and although I like the design of the card I would just run Spell Pierce.

5. Yeah, if yuo don't want to fork over all that dough for FoW, then 2-3 Misdirection is a good choice. I love that card.

[The Treefolk Master]

So, I've been scouring over Magic Online Dailys to see if I find any hidden gems, and the following deck caught my attention. The user "Goliat2" has been 3-1 and 4-0 with this deck since forever, and won a premier a year ago if I'm not mistaken.

Here's the list:


1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Terminus
2 Thopter Foundry

Sideboard:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Meddling Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Perish
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Terminus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique

It may be that this only works online, but I think it deserves a chance. Sideboard Dark Confidants in a non-BUG control deck are something I've been wanting to play for some time now, and they shatter the control mirror.

Thoughts?

[Piceli89]

I think Thopters is well positioned at the moment. This may sound bullshit in the era of Abrupt Decay, but when you overload your deck with juicy targets, it becomes relatively easy to bait them into hitting the wrong piece.
The combo has a clear potential in a metagame full of Miracle and Goblins, and it doesn't suffer Deathrite Shaman.
Furthermore, to me it has advantages over the Rest in Peace+ Helm of Obedience counterpart:

+ Thopter combo costs 2 and 2, while Helm combo costs 2 and 4.
+ Thopter foundry alone can produce token/tokens in response to Decay; Sword may be equipped to a creature in a pinch. Although RiP is clearly good alone, Helm of Awakening alone is terribly useless and clunky.
+ Foundry pitches to Force of Will; neither of the RiP combo do.
+ Although not killing immediately, Thopter combo gains life and gives board presence. This is relevant against Grip, REB and Disenchant.
+ Thopter combo is more easily recurrable from graveyard via Academy Ruins, and once Foundry has resolved, it becomes very hard for a blue-based opponent to both stop Sword of the Meek and every other artifact entering the battlefield to not let the combo start.
----

I started crafting a list in the new-formed metagame keeping an eye BGx decks.
I think the deck should start to drop Enlightened Tutor if it wants to keep up the pace. I know this sounds ridiculous because Thopter has always used that card as the centerpiece of its strcture, but it is a terrible topdeck and also clearly dead if drawn in critical occasions; plus, nowadays the piece it would grab (mainly CB and Ensnaring Bridge) can't grant a safe lock anymore, given the existence of Decay. The only worth target remained is Humility, but that's not enough for me.

Those slots should be converted in efficient, card advantage-providing tutors that are good to be drawn and offer lateral benefits. I came up with Stoneforge Mystic and Trinket Mage.
SFM:
+ Enables a parallel deck for the deck, which is Batterskull.
+ Is a devastating 2 drop that must be answered quickly; even if STP'd or Bolted, she has given CA.
+ Obviously, she acts as Sword of the Meek #2-3.
+ Provides a shuffling effect post Brainstorm/Jacestorm, and comboes with Jace.
+ Attacks and blocks.

Trinket Mage:
+ Acts as Top #5-6, which is crucial in this deck. This offers great resiliency in the face of discard.
+ Acts as EE #2-3. Being able to grab Explosives is quite relevant because BUG decks are now packing sb Pithing Needle to fight Top, which is a trump to their strategy. Since Explosives is the only removal decent to be kept in in those matchups (who would board Disenchant or such stuff?), having multiple ways to find it is quite valuable.
+ Can also ramp mana via Seat of the Synod. This is good when needing to reach 4 mana to Jace/(Verdict).
+ Doesn't suffer Pierce nor Snare.
+ Provides a shuffling effect post Brainstorm/Jacestorm, and comboes with Jace.
+ Pitches to Force.

Those two cards provide ways to strenghten the combos of the deck without playing a card that sucks against Control and discard. I also got to the conclusion that 4 Forces are useless, because most of the non-combo matchups are now fought with board presence, and this deck already tends to pile up with clunky cards sometimes.
You clearly don't want to draw into double Force-hand against a Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize deck where nothing is really worth doing a 2x1 (except for Confidant maybe), but the same may be said against e.g. Esperblade or even Miracle. 3 is a perfectly fine number for Force of Will right now, and I'd rather complement the counter-suite with good universal answers like Spell Snare (which has found again its power) and Counterspell.

This is what I came up with.

2 Trinket Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
---
3 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
---
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
---
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
---
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
---
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
---
1 Batterskull
---
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
---
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
---
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
---
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

23 lands maindeck are the right number for a Wasteland-based metagame. I split sweepers between Terminus and Supreme Verdict because too much Terminuses are dead cards in the starting hand, whereas Verdict, although slow, pitches to Force and has an utility for the CB curve.

The sideboard consists of Trinket targets, 3 REBs (mandatory in the Miracle matchup and vs Show and Tell, which is kinda hard with this new approach), 3 Cliques (for the same matchups of REB, although 1 may be trimmed down for something else). Everything else is there to strengthen the aggro/tempo matchups (Terminus, Elspeth, P2E) or as multi-purpose solutions (Disenchant and Flusterstorm).

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I suggest trying this out to all the Thopter lovers. I've had a decent success with it on Cockatrice, and the deck seems to be well tailored to keep up with the influx of black-based decks, while keeping strong percentages against the rest of the fields as well as autowin combo/locks/recursions. I know the list may seem to be a bit clunky because of all the sacred cows were cut to 3x, but this is functional to the actual metagame (and working).

[smurphy]

Now I have just finished reading over the first 20 pages and the last 10 and I have no experience with this deck in person, yet. But I do plan on building a varient of the deck but I play exclusively on MTGO and the decks I have played against all seem like CA is the most important thing so I was thinking of a BUG shell for the deck itself and dropping the white altogether. Shardless Agent just seems perfect for this deck as well as Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for the draw engine. Possible even Dark Confidants from the board as more consistancy since you would be loosing the toolbox effect. You could still run Ensnaring Bridge for SnT and Merfolk matchups as well as and also EE and could run Trinket mage for a smaller silver bullet package. Has anyone attempted this? I know Bob was tested at first but found to be mediocre but that was with the E Tutor box. Plenty of kill spells for creatures like Perish (only hits your agents if you didnt board them out) and Engineered Plague for those pesky Gobs and Spirit Tokens. Thoughts????

[Koby]

I played a Legacy Daily Event with CounterThopters today to a 3-1 finish.
Here's the recorded video - http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/361458518

This was the list I used. I did not play perfectly, and punts were had.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminus
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[sdematt]

I played a Legacy Daily Event with CounterThopters today to a 3-1 finish.
Here's the recorded video - http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/361458518

This was the list I used. I did not play perfectly, and punts were had.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminus
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Grafdigger's Cage

I feel like it needs more E. tutor to fetch your bullets, but I can't disagree with results that speak for themselves.

-Matt

[Koby]

@sdematt
I know in the past (long past in fact) we've ran a basic Mountain. During the tournament, it played out significantly weaker than a Volcanic Island. The list I used in the DE was using a basic Mountain, but during one of the rounds I found it in my opening hand and it was hindering. Mulliganed into the same mountain again, and finally went to 5. I don't think the benefits of protecting the red source from Wasteland is worth the added workarounds to it just being Volcanic. Against the decks where we need the red source (blue mirrors), Volcanic is good enough.

[sdematt]

@sdematt
I know in the past (long past in fact) we've ran a basic Mountain. During the tournament, it played out significantly weaker than a Volcanic Island. The list I used in the DE was using a basic Mountain, but during one of the rounds I found it in my opening hand and it was hindering. Mulliganed into the same mountain again, and finally went to 5. I don't think the benefits of protecting the red source from Wasteland is worth the added workarounds to it just being Volcanic. Against the decks where we need the red source (blue mirrors), Volcanic is good enough.

I asked about Tutors not Mountains :P

-Matt

[Koby]

I asked about Tutors not Mountains :P

-Matt

I'm aware. I don't think there is much value in the 2nd tutor either. I never thought "i could use another E-tutor in my hand right now" at any point in the tournament. I would sooner play the 2nd SFM than the 2nd Tutor. Muddle the Mixture also wouldn't be the worst - it puts the card directly in my hand, shuffles, and has secondary use as a conditional counterspell. Being an additional blue card, and being 2cc for CB are both relevant. Not being able to do CB triggers with Etutor is a con. The amount of card disadvantage already present in this deck makes me hesitant to run more Etutors.

I'm actively looking to find ways to add more CA elements. A Predict could go a long way.

[sdematt]

but when you need your Bridge, how are you finding it?

-Matt