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grahf
03-12-2010, 02:03 AM
Pippo84's New and Awesome Thopter Foundry Primer, v1.1:
edited and maintained by me, Grahf

This primer will not give you a sample list, or a sideboarding guide. This primer is about how to build the core of a good CounterTop-Thopter list and give you an idea of how the deck works.

Index
What is CounterTop Thopter?
Building CounterTop Thopter
Card Analysis
Why should I play this deck?
Topics to Discuss
History
Match-Ups (to come)


What is CounterTop Thopter?

CounterTop Thopter is a deck that wants to get to the long game, and win by swarming the opponent with a bunch of 1/1's. The deck uses the well known Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top soft lock to gain the control of the match and then uses the Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo to win. How does it work? When both cards are in play you can pay 1 mana and sacrifice the sword to create a 1/1 artifact creature with flying and gain one life. Since a 1/1 enters the battlefield the sword's ability triggers and the sword comes back to play equipped to the token. You can go on as long as you have enough mana. This deck is also very different from the other CounterTop lists because there are no creatures here, except from the token ones.

Building CounterTop Thopter

The core of the deck builds itself. It's commonly agreed that these cards must be played:


Artifacts:



4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Thopter Foundry




1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments:


4 Counterbalance 

1 Moat or Humility



Instants:


4 Brainstorm

4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares



Planeswalkers:


2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

22 Lands: In addition to the usual fetch/dual suite, this deck can support a high basic land count, and it's recommended to do so. (6-8 Islands and 2 Plains is not uncommon)

This leaves 7 open slots.


Core Card Analysis:

4 Brainstorm: One of the best blue spells in the format, an automatic 4 of.
4 Force of Will: Probably the best counter ever printed.
4 Swords to Plowshares: the best removal of the format.
4 Enlightened Tutor: This 1 mana instant card is what gives the glue to the deck. It can grab most cards in the deck and therefore gives more consistency. You can get the 1 ofs that are played (eg. Moat) or the missing piece of the combo. Enlightened tutor is also very synergistic with Counterbalance because you can tutor the correct casting cost card in response to a spell: a 1 mana hard counter! A few lists have used Intuition instead of E Tutor, making for a deck with a slightly different play style - it's a little slower but doesn't create card disadvantage.

4 Counterbalance: This creates a soft lock that gives virtual card advantage and helps during the whole game. Nothing more to be said about it, every one knows what it is and how it works.
4 Sensei's Divining Top: Excellent card to check the top cards for Counterbalance and to acheive card quality during the whole game. It also works well with Thopter Foundry: you can tap the Top to draw a card and sacrifice it to Thopter Foundry (paying 1 mana). This gives you 1 card, 1 life and 1 token, tech!
1 Moat: Some people prefer Humility in this slot. It is really a meta call, but it's necessary. Moat is better against Tribal decks and Humility is better against decks with Qasali Pridemage or against Reanimator. I actually prefer Moat because if you don't find answers you can die from many 1/1's.
1 Engineered Explosives: A tutorable removal against most of the things out there. It can easily do a 2 for 1 or a 3 for 1. It's an out against so many cards, very versatile.
2 Thopter Foundry: The question here could be why just 2? People usually play the 2/1 split or the 3/2 split between Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. You can use the Enlightened Tutors to get the missing piece of the combo and playing a lower number opens some slots for versatility.
1 Sword of the Meek: The minimum necessary. If it's in the GY you can sacrifice another artifact to Thopter Foundry and make it come back (remember, the ability triggers when a 1/1 enters the battlefield under your control). Multiple Swords in hand aren't nice to have.
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: This planeswalker is just the nuts! It wins the game alone and behind a Moat or with a CB+Top in play he will be likely to stick there and your opponent will stop playing because of the +2 ability. Try him if you're not sure!

The 22 land configuration usually has enough basic lands to support Back to Basics and also plays:
1 Academy Ruins: The only land in the deck that produces colorless mana. It's very useful to return your artifacts on top of your library: a countered/answered Thopter Foundry or a EE recursion.
1 Seat of the Synod: This slot is still not sure, it's a tutorable land if you're screwed (but you should have mulliganed then) and it's useful to sacrifice it to Thopter Foundry. It's a common choice in many successful lists.

Cards to fill the flex slots:

Counter magic: Counterspell, Daze, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or the new Mental Misstep are all possibilities.

Counterspell: This is a controversial slot. Some people prefer Daze in it's place. For UU, Counterspell is not the easiest spell to cast, but having a stable manabase helps. The real advantage over Daze is that the opponent cannot play around it (leaving 1 mana open) and can counter everything on the long game (and most games will be long). After saying this the deck is quite mana hungry and you want to reach 4/5 mana asap, so missing a land drop is not so good.

Daze: Interacting in the early game is good, but slowing our mana development is not so good.

Mental Misstep: The new kid on the block. Promises to stop Lackies and Vials even better than Daze did, without bouncing an Island. Time and testing will tell what is the correct number to play.

Board Control:
Ensnaring Bridge: Since this deck is currently lacking a draw engine (but creates virtual CA through CB) the opponent's creatures aren't likely to attack with ES in play.
Oblivion Ring: A 3 CC tutorable drop for Counterbalance that's an answer to almost everything.
Vedalken Shackles: Another 3 CC tutorable spell. It can steal an opponent's creature and this is always very nice. The deck runs plenty of islands to support it. Some players say it's too slow, but it can be gamebreaking.
Ghostly Prison: Slows down the opponent's creatures. Probably sideboard material.

More Removals: Having removals is always nice! Path to Exile or Wrath of God would be the obvious choices, or perhaps Firespout if red is splashed. However most lists seem to prefer permanent-based answers.

Other Tutorable Answers:
Pithing Needle: A tutorable answer for Wasteland, Vial, Planeswalkers, Qasali, Mishra and so on. There are always plenty of targets to choose.
Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus: A tutorable GY hate in maindeck. It can be useful against Reanimator, Dredge, Loam and so on.
Back to Basics: The deck has a very stable manabase to support it. It can be a good MD call if you expect many non-basic lands. It's a great sideboard card anyways.

Draw engine?:
Predict: A suggestion from Hanni. It works well with Brainstorm, Jace 2.0 and Sensei's Divining Top. It allows you to mill a card and draw 2, so you can look at 3 new cards with top the next turn. Good for card advantage and card quality at the same time. The hard part is fitting it in - does it take the place of countermagic, board control, or combo pieces?

Why should I play this deck?

This deck is really fun to play and controls the match enough to lock the opponent and win. An advantage is that it has no creatures, so all the opponent's removal are useless. This deck is also strong against aggro because if you have the combo down you have almost infinite chump blockers and gain life in the mean while. A positive point of the deck is that it's so versatile that you can get out of any situation and have many answers to everything.

Topics to Discuss.

a) The most important thing to discuss is the color to splash. The MD is almost (if not entirely) UW. What advantages does each other color bring?
b) Humility or Moat main?
c) After your testings do you prefer a 3/2 or a 2/1 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split?
d) What are the best cards in the open slots and why?
e) What type of sideboard cards are needed?
f) What weaknesses does the deck have, and how can they be addressed?

History.

This deck was born after the printing of Thopter Foundry (Alara Reborn) and had a huge success in the old Extended Format. Legacy players were more skeptical about it, but it's done quite a few placings in big tournaments. The first big result is probably from Carlos Santiago that was Undefeated Day 1 at GP Madrid. (see below for his list)

Match Ups.

To come.

------ END PRIMER ------

Grahf's Original Thopter Foundry Post: (for historical purposes and so the first few posts make sense. The list I brewed up with Standstill and Gifts is crap, don't play it.)

Hello everyone. This is the first thread I've bothered to make here on The Source. I'd like to talk about the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo, in a Countertop Control shell.

I could have sworn there was a thread dedicated to Thopter Foundry already, but I couldn't find it. There are other decks which use the combo, but look substantially different:

Punishing Gifts (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16416-%5BDeck%5D-Punishing-Gifts), focusing more on a Gifts toolbox and the Punishing Fire / Grove of the Burnwillows combo.
Tezzeret Foundry (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15917-Tezzeret-Foundry), using heavier mana acceleration to power out Tezz and other artifacts.

I'm particularly inspired by the following list which went undefeated on Day 1 of GP Madrid (see here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day1undefeated)):

2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

Now that's all very nice, and doing so well in such a big tournament is not an achievement to diminish in any way, but I'm going to transform the list a little to reflect my personal biases and card availability. The cards I'm not convinced about are Dark Confidant, Jace the Mind Sculptor and Vedalken Shackles (I happen to not own any of the three either, how convenient). I can see how Confidant's lifeloss would be offset by the lifegain of Thopter Foundry, but he has the drawback of being a magnet for the opponent's otherwise-blanked spot removal. I'm sure Jace 2.0 can do fun stuff, but I'm just not excited to tap 4 mana at sorcery speed for questionable gain. Nor should we need the pseudo-lifegain of soaking up an attack. (nor pay ~$100 for just two of him, but that's a different problem entirely). And Shackles, a lot of people are saying it's too slow for the current Legacy meta. I've never played with the card so I couldn't say for sure, but the argument seems reasonable. Maybe it's a sideboard card.

Basically, this deck is Landstill with the Thopter/Sword combo instead of Landstill's traditional bombs:

// 22 land
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 splash color blue fetch
1 splash color blue dual
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Plains

// 13 draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Gifts Ungiven

// 10 counters
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

// 10 white cards
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find
1 Humility

// 4 artifacts
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Open Slot

// sideboard: I don't know yet, but let's assume it will be fairly similar to the original.

thoughts on the land:
I didn't like how the only route to victory in the original list was Thopter/Sword, so I added Mishra's Factories to mitigate that somewhat. Two Academy Ruins seems reasonable in a deck so dependent on artifacts. The basic/snow covered split is for Gifts, so we can get both if need be. I haven't decided about the splash color: keep black like the original list, go for red like my Landstill list, or no splash at all. Originally just 20 lands total, it's now 22; I think the slightly higher count is appropriate in a Landstill-style shell. There are more colorless lands, but the color splashes are smaller, so the manabase should be stronger overall.

thoughts on the rest:
Standstill seems like a reasonable substitute for Confidant. We can play Factories and make Thopters under it just fine. Squeezed for space, I went down to three. We can find it with E Tutor if necessary, an option that Confidant does not provide.

Gifts Ungiven instead of Jace, Mind Sculptor is probably the biggest change. It's like a Fact or Fiction that always finds what you need. The Argivian Find was added to make better Gifts piles: one of Foundry, Sword, Ruins, Find will get the whole combo straightaway.

Humility should be very strong here. Oh, our thopters lose flying, oh noes. In exchange, a vast number of things that would have scared the thopters, no longer do. Only one is necessary because we can find it with E Tutor when and if needed.

That open slot could be a lot of things. The 4th Standstill, Path to Exile, Counterspell, Muddle the Mixture (jank?), another Sword or Foundry, or a wedge for fitting Daze back in.

Things that are lacking:
The Dazes from the original list didn't survive my translation. Dropping them may not be correct, but I feel that I want to hit 4 mana as soon as possible, to start making lots of thopters and casting Gifts or Humility if necessary. I'm not sure what I'd cut to get them back in, either.

There is not a single card at the 3 casting cost slot for Counterbalance. This is actually a glaring omission, and on further reflection, is probably the primary reason that Shackles was in there. I'd welcome input on this; is acquiring a Shackles the best option? Any 3cc card I do add ought to be an artifact or enchantment, so that it's fetchable with E Tutor when Cbalance is on the table.

Lastly, I haven't played this deck against real people yet, but I'm thinking about taking it to a local tournament later this month if it works out well.

HPB_Eggo
03-12-2010, 09:14 AM
Two Academy Ruins seems like a bad idea. Just toss in Tolaria West so you can tutor for Ruins or EE when you happen to draw it.

Gifts Ungiven seems like a really poor card choice when you're already running the full set of Tops and three Standstills. You don't need more draw, and Enlightened Tutor provides tutoring and shuffle effects and the like. It also meas you can cut Argivian Find, which leaves you with four empty slots to stick better things in.

Maveric78f
03-12-2010, 10:06 AM
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

I agree with you with Dark Confidant being a bad idea MD. But it could be fine in SB. I would replace it MD with Bitterblossoms. As HPB_Eggo, I think that Tolaria West is better than the second Academy Ruins.
I don't like Daze in a control deck with no mana denial. According to me it's completely irrelevant in such a deck.
I also think that Jaces are bad (at least MD). They would be nicely replaced with 1*Humility and 1*Moat. They are gg against a lot of decks MD and even if you don't want them both in play, you can use the combo to lock out the opponent, develop and they outrace him with Thopters. Humility is combo with Plague in SB. And they are both answers to 4CC spells through ET with counterbalance into play. Humility is also a great protection against most MD anti-artifact/enchantment (Qasali and Trygon Predator).
The SB does not justify a G splash neither.
Shackles is probably a bad call I agree. It forces the deck to play a lot of dual lands although it could keep a strong mana base. (the colour requirement is not that terrible in first turns, only UU). It has to be replaced with a 3CC artifact/enchantment though. I'd propose Words of Wind which is awesome with top (activate top to draw, pay 1 to replace draw with bounce, bounce top. For 2 you bounce 1 permanent from the opponent. How ever it may be even slower than Shackles. Oblivion Ring is also a good option for the 3CC slot.
I would play 1 Umezawa's Jitte to equip those thopters and faeries and maybe 1 Sword of Fire and Ice.



Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

Tokens: 6
3 Bitterblossom
3 Thopter Foundry

Usual Control Package: 24
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Toolbox: 10
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Umezawa'sJitte
1 3CC artifact/enchantment spell

ddt15
03-12-2010, 06:13 PM
I also put together this deck, but instead of a Jace (don't have the card) I run Tezzeret. He works pretty good as well. Id run one Tezz even if i had Jaces.

obituary 95
03-15-2010, 05:44 PM
i know there was a thopter combo list that made the top 8 at the indeanapolis 5k

heres the list

1 Chalice Of The Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword Of The Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

Creatures
2 Trinket Mage

Instants
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Path To Exile
3 Spell Snare
1 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Planeswalkers
2 Tezzeret The Seeker

Sorceries
1 Wrath Of God

Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat Of The Synod

Basic Lands
10 Island
2 Plains

Basic Snow Lands
1 Snow-covered Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolaria West
1 Tundra

Legendary Lands
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Meekstone
1 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Trinket Mage
3 Stifle
2 Oona, Queen Of The Fae
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wrath Of God

nodahero
03-16-2010, 03:44 PM
The deck did in fact make top 8 I believe. The deck actually made a feature match on Sunday in which it destroyed Saito's Storm list piloted by Jeremy Seroogy. Jeremy thought that deck was prolly the most groundbreaking and perhaps the best deck on the day in terms of raw strength. He said he simply couldn't get a step in edgewise to really compete agaisnt it due to the decks high amount of flexibility and versatility.

OurSerratedDust
03-17-2010, 01:00 AM
Interesting. Has anyone actually tested this out in their meta or anything? It sounds pretty good, not to mention surprising.

nodahero
03-17-2010, 02:44 PM
I have not tested out this version of ThopterSword although I have tested it in various others shells including Staxx and Gifts. Both of those shells have illustrated the degenerate power of that combo. I will be getting around to testing this deck (hopefully this week). I will let you know how the testing goes.

majikal
03-17-2010, 09:07 PM
I'll put this together and test it.. I've got a few ideas as well, like Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience out of the SB. :cool:

venice
03-18-2010, 12:13 PM
The following list won Italyīs "D-Day" tournament, 178 players were attending.

List:

GIANI FRANCESCO

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divinig Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Catene Vedalken
3 Chrome Mox
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
2x Mysty Rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Plain
1x Sede del Sinodo
1x Academy Ruins

SIDE

2x Path to Exile
3x Engineered Plague
1x Harmonic Convergence
2x Krosan Grip
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Humility

All other T8 lists of the tournament can be found here:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16217

DrJones
03-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Quick! Change the deck's name to Counter-thopter before it gets popular!

AcidFiend
03-21-2010, 02:03 AM
I played against this on MWS and found it to be pretty strong - wouldn't surprise me if this goes on to big things. Its a shame anyone packing graveyard hate against Reanimator/Dredge can hurt you incidentally (I'm thinking Faerie Macabre & Leyline).

hjalte
03-21-2010, 06:04 AM
The worst graveyard hate is, by a long shot, Leyline. It prevents the Sword from ever hitting the graveyard.
Any other graveyard hate can be somewhat played around, by saccing other artifacts in response, so you can save your sword. Planar Void is almost as bad as Leyline.

arebennian
03-21-2010, 07:18 AM
The worst graveyard hate is, by a long shot, Leyline. It prevents the Sword from ever hitting the graveyard.
Any other graveyard hate can be somewhat played around, by saccing other artifacts in response, so you can save your sword. Planar Void is almost as bad as Leyline.
Except Extirpate.
That hurts this deck quite a bit. Your Conterlock has to be set at 1 if your opponent is plaing a deck with black and you suspect it.

grahf
03-27-2010, 10:12 PM
Mini-report! My first ever Legacy tournament too, yay. I think 10 people were in attendance, but it was a pretty mature and varied meta. I saw 2 Merfolk, 2 Zoo, Eva Green, Aggro Loam, Reanimator, Affinity, ANT, and me with the Thopters.

Round 1: Merfolk

Game 1: I was doing OK until I walked an StP into Daze, classic noob mistake.
Game 2: Two wastelands keep me below 4 mana, and by the time I get Elspeth down, islandwalking kills me.

Round 2: Eva Green

Game 1: I Oblivion Ring an early Hippie, but he has another. Hymn rips up my hand, but I have Top down. I'm hiding Humility on top of my library, looking for a fourth land, which I eventually find, but I get blown out anyways by Seal of Primordium. He's holding seven cards in hand the whole game, which I was confused about, but later he shows me they were all Snuff Outs and Edicts. Well, at least I scored some virtual card advantage, har-har.

Game 2: I keep an extremely questionable hand with 2 Factories as my only land, hoping to find more with Top. Of course I never do, as Wasteland eats me alive again. By the time I get a Chrome Mox down and start Plowsharing things, it's too little to late.

Ugh. In the above two matches, I never had Thopter/Sword going even once, and CounterTop countered maybe one or two cards, which barely mattered. My boarding in both matches was -2 Spell Pierce +2 Path to Exile, and -1 random +Jitte.

Round 3: A bye? The person I was supposed to play dropped, so I watch Zoo vs. Reanimator. The Reanimator player names green with Iona, promptly gets it Path'ed, but rips Exhume off the top for the win anyways.

Round 4: Aggro Loam

Game 1: Finally some close games. These were all long and a bit blurry. Here, I can't stop Seismic Assault or Chalice at one from getting through, which both mess me up considerably. I make a misplay where I forget to put a loyalty counter on Elspeth, and she gets blown up by Assault too quick to do much. I'm able to make a few Thopters, but EE @ 2 eats my Thopter Foundry and Counterbalance. I get Waste-locked, he draws lots of cards, I can't recover.

Boarding: -1 Elspeth -1 Chrome Mox -1 Thirst -1 Oblivion Ring / +1 Aura of Silence +1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Crucible. It was tough to decide here because I wanted to bring in at least half my board, but couldnt figure out what to take out. Not sure if I made the right choices.

Game 2: Notably, this is the only game I won all day, and not coincidentally, the only game where I make a large amount of Thopters. Finding and resolving Gifts helped with that. 9 Thopters race a Seismic Assault for the win.

Game 3: Tough game. I have a Relic turn one, and Top turn 2. I start eating his yard slowly, but he forces me to sac it when he plays EE @ 1. That was a misplay on my part because I had Spell Pierce floating in my top 3. From that point it's downhill - Ruins gets Wasted, Foundry gets Pulsed (I sac it to itself), and my lone token gets Pulsed as well. I frantically search for StP, don't find it in time, and get punched in the face by a 9/9 Countryside Crusher. This guy went on to win the tournament, beating Zoo in the semis and Reanimator in the finals, congrats to him.

My rather sketchy list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Tolaria West
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Chrome Mox

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Argivian Find

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Aura of Silence
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Something else???

My scrubby results don't do justice to the potential of this archetype.

Mishra's Factory was a terrible idea, I was constantly wishing they were basic lands or another Academy Ruins. The singular Volcanic was for EE @ 3, though I never cast it at that number. Tolaria West never messed me up, I used it to find EE once. 21 lands +1 Mox did not feel like quite enough, I would add more land or moxen, however I only own one Chrome Mox right now.

As you can see I played Thirst instead of Standstill which I was exploring previously. It is probably the best choice of draw spell (not being able to cast Standstill in a losing position is a real bummer), but it still felt awkward, because the artifact count didn't seem quite high enough. In Theory, I could pitch extra Tops, or even the Sword of the Meek, but that never happened, and pitching artifact lands is very "meh" especially when I feel land-light in the first place.

I'm pretty convinced that Gifts Ungiven is the way to go, as far as searching for the Thopter/Sword combo. Enlightened Tutor underperformed all day, I'm sad to say. This may sound obvious, but E Tutor only gets half the combo, whereas Gifts gets the whole thing. This matters when I don't "draw into" the other half. Also, using E Tutor to stack the top of my library for Counterbalance is a pretty conditional play, and my deck didn't even really have the range of casting costs necessary to exploit that.

The core problem I faced is the deck schizophrenia induced by trying to assemble two separate combos. Removing Countertop would free up a ton of deck space to deal with quick aggro assaults (merfolk and zoo) and the versatility of more search. Gonna get me some Tezzerets and explore that route, I think.

I keep looking at that SCG Indy list and saying, "wtf!?!" Where's Brainstorm and Humility, why 3/1 Path/Plow split, why only one Wrath maindeck, why Oona in the sideboard? But it's hard to argue with results like that.

A final note: we now have two threads for the Thopter Combo, this one with CounterTop, and another without: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16959-Gifts-Thopters If lists with countertop continue to put up results, post them here. The other thread should be for lists without a Counterbalance focus.

obituary 95
04-12-2010, 10:47 PM
out of curiosity, i keep seing perish in the side board and well i was wondering why the card was threre. i mean i ont really know what id want to board it in aginst

whienot
04-12-2010, 10:59 PM
Natural Order decks, Zoo, Elves, Berserk Stompy, 9 land Stompy, Noble Faerie.dec

pippo84
04-13-2010, 08:50 AM
Posted a small tournament report in the "tournament reports" section if someone is interested.

obituary 95
04-14-2010, 01:13 AM
please critique this list

1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

pippo84
04-14-2010, 05:08 AM
please critique this list

1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

So, first thing you need to add in my opinion is another dual for EE at 3. I would also cut 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Spell Snare for + 1 Sword of Meek and +1 Thopter foundry.
Why did you add Eternal Dragon? I think I'm missing the point of playing it in this list.
Btw you really benefit of a 4th Counterbalance if you can add it.
Another thing to keep in mind when building a deck with counterbalance is to watch the CC curve.
You currently have 24 drops at 1 and 6 drops at 2. It won't work.Try cutting 1CC spells to add 2CC spells.

frenchy-man
04-14-2010, 05:44 AM
yes, why on earth do you play eternal dragon ?
As was already said, watch out your mana curve when you play CB...

obituary 95
04-15-2010, 10:39 PM
actually eternal dragon was in my list becuse landstill has been geting more popular in my meta

boclfon479
04-20-2010, 04:21 PM
is there a particular reason why this deck plays almost no 3cc cards, even though it is playing Counter-Top in it?

I can understand if it is because there are not many cards at 3cc that are "good enough" to be used (TfK and Shackles excluded), because the deck is a thopter foundry deck, but if we were to instead think of the deck as a counterbalance deck with thopter foundry / sword of meek as a wincon (possibly using Tezzeret if you have him in your list), wouldn't that make the deck more resilient to certain decks that are played more, suck as other counterbalance decks, and a majority of the aggro decks, which i feel like to have their curve top at around 3-4 to stop mana issues.

also, what is the reason there are no wraths or evacuations (one of my favorite cards) in the lists i have seen on here? i could see no wraths being used because it is mainly a blue deck but, with the chrome moxes, we should be able to get to 5 for evacuation, and i feel like evacuation could be a useful card because i do not really think it is played too much in legacy, though it could just be because i haven't gone to a legacy tourney, just read up on the decks as of now (hoping to start going this summer)

obituary 95
04-20-2010, 06:26 PM
the deck gets much more resiliant when people play oblivion ring.the reason for know wrath effects is well they are slow and by the time you are at 4 mana you are almost dead even whit the chrom mox excel

boclfon479
04-20-2010, 06:37 PM
what do you mean by "the deck gets much more resiliant when people play oblivion ring"?

do you mean if we play it, or if they are playing it? because the wording feels a little off...

nodahero
04-21-2010, 01:19 AM
If it is ran in this deck... the deck is more resilliant. The deck is then capable of solving problematic cards through a means other than bounce.

BreathWeapon
04-21-2010, 05:27 AM
Not playing Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte as a tutor for Sword of the Meek and an alternate win condition is a sin in this deck, IMO, multiple Swords of the Meek is pointless when you never have to worry about it getting countered in the first place.

pippo84
04-21-2010, 06:39 AM
Not playing Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte as a tutor for Sword of the Meek and an alternate win condition is a sin in this deck, IMO, multiple Swords of the Meek is pointless when you never have to worry about it getting countered in the first place.

This may be a good idea. I'll try it in the future.

@ Oblivion Ring: I never had the chance to test it in this deck, but I wanted to include 1 from when I built my first list. It can solve all types of problems and it's a tutorable 3CC for CB. :smile:

Now I'm testing a slightly different version of the deck: it has Counterspell, Spell Snare and Mishra's Factories. The main difference is that I also included Polymorph and Emrakul.. :eek:

Whitewolf
04-23-2010, 01:22 PM
I've actually Been testing out this Particular deck for Quite some time now(e.g. 4/5 months), i originnally started with a heavy Control vesrion of Counter-top but Quickly noticed that the power level of Foundry-Sword in extended was just Broken, anyways,
Oblivion Ring has been in my list since almost the inception and has worked Quite well at mitigating faster decks and Providing additional utility when needed.

I have found that As far as 3cc spells go, some of your bests bets are Ashnods Alter, Oblivion Ring and Back to Basics/Crucible of Worlds. Keeping in mind that these spells are also Tutorable with E. Tutor.(read Counter-top Synergy)

Ashnods Alter Fills the role of 3cc spell and Combo win well enough in my build. Thoughts?

As for the possible inclusions of the Mystic and the Jitte package, i suppose the same counterpoint could be uses against this as Bobby Mascara, the possible card advantage seems underwhelming when the opponent likely has kill spells inhand, for your mystic. I'd rather have a "real" tutor up or a piece of the Combo 99% of the time.

I haven't tried to include tezzeret in my Build but it is an idea i've been toying with.

I'll see if i cant post up My decklist soon Along with some Matchup analisis, For my local meta Which is Quite poor over all -No bant, Pox, Drege, Merfolk, and Survival-

Whitewolf
04-23-2010, 01:37 PM
Also, as far as graveyard hate goes, the leyline is not the "Worst" one in my opinion, The Possible Turn Zero Leyline is Often Killed by my MD O. Ring.

The biggest problem is Extripate! B/c unless your floating a 1cc spell on top of your library You are Screwed!

All other Graveyard hate can wait till you have the proper removal or in the case of The Crypt/relic, Multiple Artifacts in play.(op: activate Crypt/relic in Responce to the swords trigger, Us: sac a artifact in play to keep our sword alive)

Whitewolf
04-24-2010, 11:39 AM
As Promised hereís a Decklist:

Thopter-top By Whitewolf

//Lands-22

2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Plains
4 Island
1 Forest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Academy Ruins

//Combo Package
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ashnodís Altar

//Draw/Library Manipulation/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Standstill
4 Senseiís Divining Top
1 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor

//Control and Utility
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives

Now, Before I get to The Card Choices, I need to say a couple things, Read Ahead for those uninterestedÖ

I started playing in the legacy format around a year ago, testing the traditional UW landstill build. The deck felt Slow and ponderous in the face of most Aggro/combo Strategies at the time. Since then I have been a major fan of Board control, But dismayed at the actual results in testing such builds. Merfolk, Zoo, Ant, Thresh, all are well equipped to deal with the slow start of a Traditional Control Build. Enter Counter-top/Foundry-Sword. The inclusion of Counter-top in any Deck means in terms of awesomeness a solid Chuck Norris rating. This however, meant the loss of Sweepers (e.g. Nevís Disc and the like). Foundry-Sword takes the place of the ďfinisherĒ. Being able to Survive the Swords/wraths?/Explosives of the format is almost the Holy Grail of a Control deck. Both in one deck means Far more access to large amounts of control than one person wielding 75 anime-sleeved cards should have.

What Eventually resulted was the Above list. Iíve tested the deck numerous times against the archetypes of the format and the results while not spectacular are promising. Please note that Iím not in any position to say that my build is the definitive build, my metagame is the Urborg of all metagames, nor am I anywhere near good enough to be authoritative on card selection but please bear with me.

First lets Establish the Auto includes.

3/2 Split on Foundry/sword or a 3/1 split favoring Foundry,
-Do I really need to explain Why you should play with at least four pieces of this degenerate combo favoring U *cough*Forceofwill*cough*

8xCounterspells 4 of which should be Force of will
- Considering that your playing with Counter-top you need additional ways to protect your board position as well as your win. Um alsoÖitís rumored that at one point Chuck Norris was designing cards for WotC but due to Complications involving several Deaths in the FFL was kicked off the team, luckily for us they did Print one of the cards he designed, Iíll give you one Guess which one it was.

4xBrainstorm/5+ fetches
- Being able to find any card in your deck and your mommaís deck isnít broken at allÖ

3-4 Counterbalance/ 4xSenseiís Divining Top
- Chuck Norris Orders you to play these cards!

4xSwords to Plowshares
- It would be easier to compile a list of what this doesnít kill, Run 4 minimum!!!

Now to spark some Debate.

4xE. Tutors
-if I could Run 12 of these I would! E. Tutor is immensely synergistic with Counterbalance, that being said I donít want to include cards like Intuition/Gifts because they force me to run ďbadĒ cards like Argivian Find which in turn Clog up my Deck and Take slots from Control Cards.

1xAcademy Ruins
-Iím not sold on this myself. Iíve literally never had to Activate this more than a few times in all of my testing. Engineered Explosives is Relatively new and might change that but If the opponent has the kill for my combo/control pieces then usually I have to scoop soon after.

2xPath to Exile
-Killing Critters is a must, in my meta itís the thing to do behind scooping to Ant. Not that I scoop to AntÖAnyways, between Zoo & Merfolk Critters are everywhere(Iím looking at you wake thrasher/Tarm), So you better Bring Some Raid or this if you donít want to scoop.

1xOblivion Ring
-Utility is Good and needed in this deck, and I hear that countering 3 drops is nifty.

1xPonder
-This is more like a place holder in my build, Iíve never been sad to draw it in any of my test games. This could easily be something Else however.

1xBack to Basics
-I keep on Switching this with Propaganda/Crucible. Not settled on it but having game against lands/aggroloam is important these days. Also in my Meta, itís like a free win against Dualland heavy decks, AKA Survival Scoops!

1xStandStill
-This Card Reads 1U, Sorcery, Draw three Cards on your opponents turn 99.9% of the time. The other .01% It Reads Silence for a load of Turns. That Said, Its one of the few card Advantage engines in the deck. This, E.E.+Academy Ruins, and Top+CB.

1xEngineered Explosives(E.E.)
-A recent Addition to the Deck, I have high hopes for this little bugger. I donít like however that this demands more colors in this deck. Yeah I run Fetches/Duals, Whateva, but more colors means less of my precious man lands! Speaking of Which.

2 Celestial Colonnade
-Having an Additional Finisher is De facto Important! On the other hand I have no idea What De facto means soÖ

And some General Stuff.

Spash of Green?
-allows Krosan Grips SB, Plays nice W/E.E., & Cuz I donít Have Polluted Deltas

61 cards?
-Someone once said that playing Blue in An eternal Format is like Playing a 40 card deck, 1 card difference is not that big of a deal guys.

High Basic Land Count?
-ppl Like Blowing Up my Lands, But at least I can Fight the Dust Bowls & Wastlands of the World if I play with my Unhinged Basics!

Wow thatís a ton of Stuff, Feel free to Critique, or insult my intelligenceÖI just Want this deck to do well.

BreathWeapon
04-25-2010, 09:51 AM
IMO, not relying on Thopter/Sword as your only wincon is crucial for the deck's success, I've been experimenting with both Stoneforge Mystic and Spellstutter Sprite in the deck and I've found just being able to beat down with Jitte while countering spells and tutoring for the combo (otherwise) is incredibly fucking strong. You get to slip in and out of being control, combo-control and aggro-control almost effortlessly, and that flexibility just really causes people to misplay left and right. Playing a shitty version of Painter/Stone is not the way to go, IMO.

neckfire
04-25-2010, 03:43 PM
IMO, not relying on Thopter/Sword as your only wincon is crucial for the deck's success, I've been experimenting with both Stoneforge Mystic and Spellstutter Sprite in the deck and I've found just being able to beat down with Jitte while countering spells and tutoring for the combo (otherwise) is incredibly fucking strong. You get to slip in and out of being control, combo-control and aggro-control almost effortlessly, and that flexibility just really causes people to misplay left and right. Playing a shitty version of Painter/Stone is not the way to go, IMO.

jace2.0.....try it out people i hear he's pretty good.

obituary 95
04-25-2010, 04:44 PM
why are you running two sword of the meeks,the last time i checked they were the worst part of the combo.that slot would probably be better off if it became another thopter foundry.

also why is the altar there.the only reason i can see for running the card md is if ther is a lot of reanimater in your meta .but in all other cases alter should be a sidboard card

shouldn't the colonaides becume factoys .i mean they just seem beter they activate sooner and it just seems like overall mishra is a beter card

boclfon479
04-29-2010, 04:06 PM
what do you guys think about having humility in the maindeck as both a control-esque card that only minimally affects us, and so we can use the enlightened tutors in combination with counterbalances to counter tendrils and other important 4 mana cards found in legacy?

obituary 95
04-29-2010, 09:44 PM
i was playing humility md for a little while but i think ensnaring bridge is better unless you play a list with a lot of card draw

what is the worst match ups for this deck?
the only matchups i have found is
rdw
dredge
43 lands

obituary 95
05-03-2010, 04:47 PM
please critique this list it has been performing well in my playtesting


6 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory

// Spells
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

the sideboard needs some help ,but the main deck has been doing well

boclfon479
05-03-2010, 05:27 PM
please critique this list it has been performing well in my playtesting


6 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory

// Spells
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

the sideboard needs some help ,but the main deck has been doing well

do you feel that you are seeing enough of the sword of the meek with only 1 in the deck through the use of the brainstorms and tutors?

also, how has the ensnaring bridge been doing for you? how many cards do you usually have in your hand for it? you think it would be better off as a humility? i think humility would be a little better because it removes abilities from creatures, screwing over qasali pridemage and other anoying creatures??

also, how are the O-rings working out??

EDIT: also, how are the factories working out? do you think they would be better as blinkmoth nexus's so you can sac to make a token if needed??

obituary 95
05-03-2010, 05:56 PM
do you feel that you are seeing enough of the sword of the meek with only 1 in the deck through the use of the brainstorms and tutors?

also, how has the ensnaring bridge been doing for you? how many cards do you usually have in your hand for it? you think it would be better off as a humility? i think humility would be a little better because it removes abilities from creatures, screwing over qasali pridemage and other anoying creatures??

also, how are the O-rings working out??

EDIT: also, how are the factories working out? do you think they would be better as blinkmoth nexus's so you can sac to make a token if needed??

i have had no problume finding sword of the meek

actually when i play the brige i usually end up with 1 card in hand


the o rings are good but im thinking about cutting 1 or 2 of them. i mean they are so slow that they are a dead draw against agro. and they usually get boarded out for pte.im actually starting to wonder if it is not better to not play any 3 drops at all and if it would be better if we would just play more 1s and 2s . i mean sure we get less reselientcy to korosan grip but i think the speed we would pick up might be invaluable . if we decided to do that the ENSNRING BRIGE should still stay . its effect is amazing against folk and aganst some versions of gobos

the factories are better than the nexus since they are 2/2s compared to the nexus puny statue

boclfon479
05-03-2010, 09:34 PM
what about mutavaults then?

they are basically the same, but against tribal decks, they become better...

Salogy
05-03-2010, 10:10 PM
Here is a list that has gone 3-1 in a Daily Event on MTGO (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1175104). The pilot is Fiatlux running a UW version with a big enlightened tutor toolbox. The enlightened tutors help find answers in conjunction with maximizing Counterbalance. The artifact lands are used with the Thopter Foundry if needed and can be recurred with Crucible of Worlds. Moat + Humility can be put down early with the Chrome Mox and with both out, shuts down creature based decks. The list is very much a walker/landstill deck with thopters.

// 21 Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra
1 Wasteland

// 40 Other Spells
1 Back to Basics
4 Brainstorm
2 Chrome Mox
3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Standstill
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 A?ther Spellbomb
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Dispeller's Capsule
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 2 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wing Shards

obituary 95
05-03-2010, 11:28 PM
THE deck that won that placed the mtgo event is horrible it doesnt even play swords to plowshares

Koby
05-04-2010, 01:11 AM
And yet, it has a winning record. Which goes to show for something.

I think the toolbox approach is a bit haphazard, since the singletons won't be good topdecks in random spots. A better approach might be to stream line the singletons into functional blocks, while still retaining the E.Tutor engine. 1x Standstill can't be that useful IMO.

boclfon479
05-04-2010, 03:08 PM
i was thinking about the toolbox direction, and i had an idea.

what if you guys used golden wish and sideboarded the toolbox cards, along with 1 sword and thopter foundry?

it would help you get the toolbox cards when you need them, and it would also make the deck a little more resilient to extirpate and other global removal spells. the only downside is that it costs 3WW and is a sorcery, but it could be fairly invaluable if it works out...

obituary 95
05-04-2010, 05:10 PM
i was thinking about the toolbox direction, and i had an idea.

what if you guys used golden wish and sideboarded the toolbox cards, along with 1 sword and thopter foundry?

it would help you get the toolbox cards when you need them, and it would also make the deck a little more resilient to extirpate and other global removal spells. the only downside is that it costs 3WW and is a sorcery, but it could be fairly invaluable if it works out...

golden wish coast five mana i would rather just play cunning wish and get enlighened tutors out of the bord ,but i think that is a bad idea the format is just to fast to allow you to play such sinnanagens

boclfon479
05-04-2010, 05:45 PM
golden wish coast five mana i would rather just play cunning wish and get enlighened tutors out of the bord ,but i think that is a bad idea the format is just to fast to allow you to play such sinnanagens

ok. I was just looking at it as a way to get around having your combo extirpated and being unable to win.

boclfon479
05-04-2010, 08:11 PM
it seems like none of these decks are playing TfK. is there a reason for it, or is it just too slow?

I have 3 in my deck atm, should i remove them and the engineered explosives for 2 lands and a 2 jace M/tezz?

FiatLux
05-05-2010, 06:41 AM
That list of mine is an older version. I change it frequently. I don't run Back to Basics anymore, and it hasn't helped me much. Someone mentioned the singleton standstill being a bit useless. I agree. I think I'll buy a 4th enlightened tutor for the list to replace.

The Kor Firewalkers are gone. I'd prob use warmth or circle of protection which can be tutored. Firewalkers are only marginally better vs online burn decks that run x4 Goblin Guides and x4 Keldon Marauders, but I already run Moat and Humility anyway.

Toolbox builds can be slow, but it's just a personal preference of my own for decks that can respond strongly to a wide variety of threats, even if they run slower. I don't necessarily think they're better, it's just more entertaining for me.

FiatLux
05-05-2010, 06:55 AM
it seems like none of these decks are playing TfK. is there a reason for it, or is it just too slow?

I have 3 in my deck atm, should i remove them and the engineered explosives for 2 lands and a 2 jace M/tezz?

I do use Thirst for Knowledge in that particular list, but in general, it's too slow unless you're running multiple moxen. I don't think I even run enough to justify it really. I think it's a lot stronger in vintage where you have a dozen or more artifacts to pitch, and very quick artifact mana.

I never tried E.Explosives in that particular list. I had another that didn't run moxen, and is blue/black/white that does run EE, but I can't run EE in that particular list because it only has 2 colors. Besides that, I usually don't have an empty board (my counterbalance and thopter foundry at 2 CMC, moxen at 0 CMC, pithing needle, nodes, divining top at 1 CMC) as the opponent. For creatures, wrath, humility, moat, does fine. Along with Nodes in SB to tutor for. For other things... I guess I'd just have to rely on pithing needles and counters.

Suggestions are welcome though.

menace13
05-05-2010, 06:56 AM
I prefer Sphere of Law as long as the deck is casting Moats and Humility, it trumps Warmth when facing Goblins(except Piley) or Creatures already on Board(think Lavamancer) also can not be Needled as CoP can. I think that Standstill as a singelton is there just for your entertainment solely.

Not that TFK isn't good, take Extended for example where it sees plenty play outside Vintage, but the use of TFK is advantageous when there are multiple fast mana artifacts and/or redundant copies of pieces(Chalice,Shackle,EE,Staxx parts) which are going to be recurred(Welder,Ruins) anyway if needed. FoF or Vision may be better if you have not tried it already.

FiatLux
05-05-2010, 05:39 PM
Sphere of Law is a great idea, and a good foil to Sulfuric Vortex/Flames of the Bloodhand.

obituary 95
05-05-2010, 09:55 PM
Suggestions are welcome though.[/QUOTE]


ok. I was just looking at it as a way to get around having your combo extirpated and being unable to win.

honestly in the match ups that run extirpate are usually control decks which we already have a 50/50 match up against besides its not like the combo is our only win condition .i mean in most lists that have done well at least on deck check.net have eitheir run man lands or other creatures

boclfon479
05-05-2010, 10:38 PM
Suggestions are welcome though.



honestly in the match ups that run extirpate are usually control decks which we already have a 50/50 match up against besides its not like the combo is our only win condition .i mean in most lists that have done well at least on deck check.net have eitheir run man lands or other creatures[/QUOTE]

here is a copy of the list I am currently testing:

---------------------
Counter Thopter
---------------------

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Counterbalance
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

** ATM, I have no sideboard created, but the trop is in there in case i put a grip in the board.

what do you think i should change around to make it work better? as you can see, i have been adding concepts that seem good in theory, but the deck seems to have a mana problem...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, but i feel like the explosives is crippling the deck because if i use it on 0, 1, or 2 i will end up destroying my own permanents...

obituary 95
05-05-2010, 11:47 PM
honestly in the match ups that run extirpate are usually control decks which we already have a 50/50 match up against besides its not like the combo is our only win condition .i mean in most lists that have done well at least on deck check.net have eitheir run man lands or other creatures

here is a copy of the list I am currently testing:

---------------------
Counter Thopter
---------------------

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Counterbalance
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island

1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

** ATM, I have no sideboard created, but the trop is in there in case i put a grip in the board.

what do you think i should change around to make it work better? as you can see, i have been adding concepts that seem good in theory, but the deck seems to have a mana problem...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, but i feel like the explosives is crippling the deck because if i use it on 0, 1, or 2 i will end up destroying my own permanents...[/QUOTE]

depending on your meta i would consider putting o ring to the board or maybe not running it at all the same goes for tfk..
i would also try to cut the artifact land and a few fetches for cards that produce mana

i do agre with you on the explosives ,i almost feel like the deck is useing ee as a crutch .i mean in all the time ive played the deck there has never been a specific instance that i actually wanted ee.even when i play against zoo it would usually go countersomething kill something else with stp and then just get down the soft lock.actually against dredge it is quite usefully but that match up is so bag g1 that unles we combo off we are going to loss any way

i would cut a sword of the meek but that is just my personal prefrence . i have also begain testing kitchen finks in the deck as another win con

boclfon479
05-06-2010, 01:25 AM
what shold i replace the o-ring and TfK's with?

also, the 1 artifact land in the deck i like because i can use the enlightened tutor for it if i have an opening hand with a W and no U.
also, instead of the ee, what do you think about using humility in its place? it is able to hose aggro down while only minimally affecting us(only losing flying), but also, against ANT and other decks that rely on 4 cmc cards to win, you can enlightened for it onto the top to counter stuff w/ CB.

SpeedOfDark
05-06-2010, 01:41 AM
Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with the archetype to comment productively...

However I can give one invaluable piece of advice:

rename the deck to CounterThop :DDD

BreathWeapon
05-06-2010, 02:45 AM
I doubt I'd run Glittering Wish over Enlightened Tutor, but a UGW Bant running both Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of the Meek in the MD with Glittering Wish in the MD and Thopter Foundry in the SB is kind of interesting, IMO the man plan is the only thing making Counter/Thopter viable over Painter/Stone.

Whitewolf
05-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Has Anyone thought about Vendillion Clique As an Additional Control/clock card?
I've recently got some and i've been thinking about it.

Also i agree that Engineered explosives isn't as great as originally stated, it's to much of a precise kill card in most cases and it really only shines when killing tokens. But i'm more inclined towards moat than humility...thats just me tho.

And How bout ThopterTop for a name?

boclfon479
05-06-2010, 02:55 PM
Has Anyone thought about Vendillion Clique As an Additional Control/clock card?
I've recently got some and i've been thinking about it.

Also i agree that Engineered explosives isn't as great as originally stated, it's to much of a precise kill card in most cases and it really only shines when killing tokens. But i'm more inclined towards moat than humility...thats just me tho.

And How bout ThopterTop for a name?

the reason i like humility more is because it completely levels the playing field for all creatures, giving us the advantage for out instant creature production. Also, and more importantly, it removes abilities on creatures that would otherwise hurt us a lot, like pridemage, Iona, Eldrazi, ect.

obituary 95
05-06-2010, 05:09 PM
i like they idea of humility but have not tested it but i will test it more tonight

pippo84
05-06-2010, 05:51 PM
I have tested Humility and it's really good.
I stopped using Daze, all my games went to the long game and so I found it quite useless. Thoughts?

Koby
05-06-2010, 05:55 PM
1) Humility is good. I run it singleton with E.Tutor to fetch. It works really well.
2) Daze is bad. You want to reach 4 mana ASAP and taking the tempo loss hurts a lot here. I play Spell Pierce, but Spell Snare works just as well.
3) Stoneforge Mystic + Sword of the Meek with a tutor maindeck seems like an interesting option. It might be the Danger of Cool Things however. Needs more testing.

obituary 95
05-06-2010, 11:21 PM
intresting i have started to play daze again becuse i didnt have enough two drops in the deck.

pippo84
05-07-2010, 07:13 AM
intresting i have started to play daze again becuse i didnt have enough two drops in the deck.

Play Counterspell! :tongue:

Actually that's the swap I made.. Daze was not good for long game and Counterspell is.

If we could play Mana Drain.. :eek:

Anusien
05-08-2010, 01:11 AM
The problem with these UWx Enlightened Tutor control decks is that they stuff their maindecks to the gills with shitty Enlightened Tutor targets and 4 Enlightened Tutors. Then they end up dropping games to "Oh no, this Moat I went three cards in to get got Gripped" or "Oh shit, I drew Crucible of Worlds and Tormod's Crypt against Zoo when I needed an answer." So I think you want to minimize the amount to which you're a cute toolbox deck, especially in game 1 situations.

Also, I've done my best to minimize the actual reliance on enchantments and artifacts. It's already bad that your two best comboes, CounterTop and Thopter Foundry both get shut down by Grudge and Grip and Pridemage. You really don't want to be all in on a Vedalken Shackles or something similar in game2 and just get hosed.

The last sideboard card in the sideboard for me is a Mystic Remora, because I think it might sort of do all of these roles. It's something I need to test. You probably either want to make it something random like a Crucible of Worlds to beat Stax, some tutor card against Enchantress, Curfew, an anti-Dredge card, or a general blue mirror card like Sower of Temptation.

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinket Mage
3 Enlightened Tutor

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Humility

6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Mystic Remora

Whitewolf
05-11-2010, 12:20 PM
@Anusien
I dont think that Three to Four cards is pushing it too much, with regard to a good toolbox.
the real problem lies in the toolbox options themselves and which ones will cause an autoscoop for our opponent.

For instance Moat v. Humility? There both four drops and white but while moat leaves you more vulnerable to Enchantment kill in the form of pridemage it doesent allow for any bleed through damage that occurs with Aggro decks from time to time.

Having a blowout card is amazing in a deck, drawing inapropriate amounts of useless blowout cards is not, Balanceing these cards withan appropriate shell is what we're aiming for here.

IMO: Veldeken shacles is much too slow for any real consideration, playtest against Reanimator if you dont think so

Also How is the Trinketmage/engineered explosives pakage going for you? I noticed your running 4 colors yet no on color spells in your MD whatsoever, are they really that Nessesary?

Anusien
05-11-2010, 12:34 PM
With Moat v Humility, it comes down to A) Price, and B) which decks you expect more of. Humility is better against Zoo, Moat is better against Merfolk.

Oblivion Ring is almost on its way out too. I want a three-drop there, but a friend encouraged me to add it largely to have an Enlightened Tutor-able three-drop. It's another way to remove Jace and Counterbalance, but I think it might need to become something non-awful.

The manabase is actually pretty awesome. Firespout and Grudge SB is an awesome package against decks like UW Tempo and Merfolk. Remove their Vials, remove their Jitte, remove Needles on Explosives. Also Grudge is one of the better cards in the mirror.

Here's the test for all the singletons. A) How many matches will this card win you being in the maindeck over a SCG $5k? If the answer is 1 or fewer, cut it. B) If it's 2 or more, cut it and test the matchup anyway. See how badly you lose with it not being there.

Maveric78f
05-11-2010, 02:44 PM
Moat seems better because it's not antisynergic with Ensnaring Bridge which is the perfect 3CC tutorable drop it needs. ORing seems also very important to have an answer to planeswalkers. Flying thopters are also good to that but the set-up is often slow to settle.

Anusien
05-11-2010, 02:49 PM
Is your argument against Humility really "It has anti-synergy with this other bomb"?

What matchups is Ensnaring Bridge actually good against besides Reanimator? I'm still not sure if I dump my hand enough to make it good against Merfolk or something.

pippo84
05-11-2010, 03:09 PM
Never tested Ensnaring Bridge, and I think I never will.
Moat and Humility are both really strong. Humility shuts down Qasali Pridemage. Moat stops most critters. It probably comes down to a meta call.
I am currently testing a version with more counters (Counterspell and Spell Snare, no Daze) and added 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Grindstone. It really is an oops I win factor! And another win condition.
Was not sure to add this or 2 Jace, but the Grindstone combo seems synergic with the rest of the deck. This said I know Jace is a power house! Thoughts?

sauce
05-11-2010, 03:55 PM
the beauty of the deck is that it blanks opponents removal, why do you want to play cards that allow your opponents swords to plowshares to become useful?

obituary 95
05-11-2010, 05:20 PM
Is your argument against Humility really "It has anti-synergy with this other bomb"?

What matchups is Ensnaring Bridge actually good against besides Reanimator? I'm still not sure if I dump my hand enough to make it good against Merfolk or something.

ensnaring brige is good against several decks .such as merfolk reanimater and show and tell decks that try to dump there hand.
and honestly i played against u/w tempo and i just played a ensnaring brige and it bought me like 10 to 15 turns

arebennian
05-11-2010, 09:00 PM
Not sure if this article has been posted here or not, or if one of you is the author. Thought I would stick it up here anyway.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19122_Fishing_Lessons_Enlightening_in_Legacy.html

arebennian
05-11-2010, 09:01 PM
Not sure if this article has been posted here or not, or if one of you is the author. Thought I would stick it up here anyway.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19122_Fishing_Lessons_Enlightening_in_Legacy.html

Anusien
05-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Ensnaring Bridge is pretty awful against UW Tempo since you have to dump your hand down to 1 card to turn on. I'm not sure how good it is against Merfolk; it obviously shines as an answer to Iona and Inkwell Leviathan, which few cards are.

I would not want Painter's Servant and Grindstone. I'd rather not have more situational and awful cards that I'd have to use two Enlightened Tutors to win with. I would rather add more Thopter/Swords than Painter/Grindstone.

pippo84
05-12-2010, 06:00 AM
Ensnaring Bridge is pretty awful against UW Tempo since you have to dump your hand down to 1 card to turn on. I'm not sure how good it is against Merfolk; it obviously shines as an answer to Iona and Inkwell Leviathan, which few cards are.

I would not want Painter's Servant and Grindstone. I'd rather not have more situational and awful cards that I'd have to use two Enlightened Tutors to win with. I would rather add more Thopter/Swords than Painter/Grindstone.

So would you play 2 Jace the Mindsculptor insead of the Painter's Servant and Grindstone or what? I already play 3 Thopter Foundry and 2 Sword of the Meek.
In my testing they were pretty good though. Another win condition, synergic with the deckand especially a fast one.

Anusien
05-12-2010, 12:35 PM
So would you play 2 Jace the Mindsculptor insead of the Painter's Servant and Grindstone or what? I already play 3 Thopter Foundry and 2 Sword of the Meek.
In my testing they were pretty good though. Another win condition, synergic with the deckand especially a fast one.
I'd run the list as above, possibly with an extra Jace the Mindsculptor instead of something else. If I suggested something else, that something else would be in the list above.

The problem with running extra win conditions is that most of the time Thopter Foundry or Sword of the Meek isn't worth two cards, let alone one. Technically you could win with Painter's Servant + Grindstone by turn 4, but it requires a ton of work and to be pretty lucky. Most of the time I have to spend all my mana not dying before I can go find a win condition.

Whitewolf
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
I'm not sure if this is a conpletely Viable idea but If anyone is contemplating Ensnaring Bridge then the Argument for Chrome Moxes Becomes Much more Appealing.

I've recently added them to my decklist and ensnaring bridge as well and i fel that between those and force of will/enlightened tutor you have a reasonable shot to blank out Critters by turn Four.

Just thought i'd mention it.

Also i agree with Anusien, extra win conditions further dilute your Thopter/sword combo by watering down your already watered down E. tutors

Anusien
05-12-2010, 03:06 PM
I'm leery of being all-in on Ensnaring Bridge because if they find Krosan Grip or Qasali Pridemage you lose instantly.

pippo84
05-12-2010, 04:03 PM
@Anusien: I just re-read your list. You play with just 4 Force of Will + 4 Counterbalance as counters? I could never play with just those counters especially in a slow deck as this one.
I also think that 3 Engineered Explosives are too many, 2 should be enough.

Anyways I think that having a second win condition can be worth it. I'll see how testing goes. Trying 2 x Jace or Painter + Grindstone..

Btw I play a very solid manabase for this list: just UW with 1 dual of another color just for EE at 3. I don't see the reason to splash other colors..

Anusien
05-12-2010, 04:34 PM
Firespout is the best anti-aggro solution ever. It changes the entire dynamic of a lot of those matchups.

I don't think you test enough against aggro decks if your plan is to cut extra EEs and extra Firespouts.
First off, 2 EE is about the worst number possible. You can't count on seeing one early when you need it. 3 is a high enough number to see one early; sometimes you get to run it out for 1 on turn 1 against Merfolk/Goblins/UW Tempo, which is about the best feeling ever.

Post board you can side out a few Counterbalances and then Force of Will and bring in Firespout and Grudges against all those decks which makes you virtually unbeatable. You have a dominating long game and then just infinite removal, almost all of which is a 2 for 1 or better. That plan is incredibly solid, and I wouldn't change it. That's the part of the deck I'm most sure about.

Running extra counters is sort of awful. Most of them suck, although I'm considering a single Disrupting Shoal or something similar in the maindeck over the 24th land to present some extra interactivity. Generally I don't want to sit around and casting counterspells. It's inefficient, redundant with the principal plan of the deck, and just all-around loose. The important spells either come with Force backup (Natural Order), are uncounterable (Krosan Grip), or affect the board (creatures). The only things I'd want to counter I have other ways to deal with, like Counterbalance and Jace. Oh and staring at a hand of counters when looking at Aether Vial or Counterbalance or Dark Ritual sucks.

By and large, I don't want to get into counter-wars. I use my Force of Will to be non-interactive, not to be interactive. I don't want to sit back counterspelling things. I want to lock the game up. As much as possible, it's a prison deck, not a control deck.

pippo84
05-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Firespout is the best anti-aggro solution ever. It changes the entire dynamic of a lot of those matchups.

I don't think you test enough against aggro decks if your plan is to cut extra EEs and extra Firespouts.
First off, 2 EE is about the worst number possible. You can't count on seeing one early when you need it. 3 is a high enough number to see one early; sometimes you get to run it out for 1 on turn 1 against Merfolk/Goblins/UW Tempo, which is about the best feeling ever.

Post board you can side out a few Counterbalances and then Force of Will and bring in Firespout and Grudges against all those decks which makes you virtually unbeatable. You have a dominating long game and then just infinite removal, almost all of which is a 2 for 1 or better. That plan is incredibly solid, and I wouldn't change it. That's the part of the deck I'm most sure about.

Running extra counters is sort of awful. Most of them suck, although I'm considering a single Disrupting Shoal or something similar in the maindeck over the 24th land to present some extra interactivity. Generally I don't want to sit around and casting counterspells. It's inefficient, redundant with the principal plan of the deck, and just all-around loose. The important spells either come with Force backup (Natural Order), are uncounterable (Krosan Grip), or affect the board (creatures). The only things I'd want to counter I have other ways to deal with, like Counterbalance and Jace. Oh and staring at a hand of counters when looking at Aether Vial or Counterbalance or Dark Ritual sucks.

By and large, I don't want to get into counter-wars. I use my Force of Will to be non-interactive, not to be interactive. I don't want to sit back counterspelling things. I want to lock the game up. As much as possible, it's a prison deck, not a control deck.

In my testing this deck just hoses zoo. And has a good game against merfolk and goblins. The lifegain and the tokens just give you a blast against aggro.

I guess we are playing the deck in a different way. I play it as pure control. I play more plow effects and many counters.
I know that firespout is the best thing against aggro, but Moat or Humility look really good as well.

Anusien
05-12-2010, 05:52 PM
The good players will be prepared for Humility and Moat.

obituary 95
05-12-2010, 08:31 PM
pippo84 what list do you play

Something like this could have been sent in a PM directly to pippo, no?

-PR

pippo84
05-13-2010, 04:53 AM
pippo84 what list do you play

This was the last list I played. You can find it and comments in the tournament reports section.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

6 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of Synod
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Side:

3 Meddling Mage
2 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Earthsworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre



My current list is:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility/Moat
2 Jace the Mindsculptor (to test) or the 1 Painter's Servant + 1 Grindstone I'm playing atm.

6 Island
4 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Comments? :smile:
Insults? :mad:
Suggestions? :tongue:

Anusien
05-13-2010, 12:04 PM
-1 E-Tutor, +1 Top. I thought everyone learned this lesson a million years ago.

Do you find not having any 3s to be a problem?

Whitewolf
05-13-2010, 02:49 PM
Pippo84, You should really add the fourth Divining top, Multiples mean great synergy as you can activate the second ability and with it on the stack sacrifice it to your foundry to effectively cycle it.

Also Why not Black for a splash?
in my testing the deck falls short in the control game due to its inability to interact with the opponents hand at times, such as ANT or Rock style decks. Hymn to Tourach would help immensly in this regard, IMO.

Anusien
05-13-2010, 02:55 PM
Then you're playing the deck wrong. I wouldn't want Thoughtseize/Hym against ANT. If you can't win with Back to Basics, Counterbalance/Top, Force of Will and Ethersworn Canonist, you're not going to win by adding a package of Thoughtseize either.

I wouldn't want Thoughtseize/Duress/Hymn to beat the rock anyway. That's a matchup you're going to dominate with CounterTop. Brainstorm/E-Tutor does more to win those matchups than black discard ever would.

pippo84
05-13-2010, 05:34 PM
Then you're playing the deck wrong. I wouldn't want Thoughtseize/Hym against ANT. If you can't win with Back to Basics, Counterbalance/Top, Force of Will and Ethersworn Canonist, you're not going to win by adding a package of Thoughtseize either.

I wouldn't want Thoughtseize/Duress/Hymn to beat the rock anyway. That's a matchup you're going to dominate with CounterTop. Brainstorm/E-Tutor does more to win those matchups than black discard ever would.

Neither I would play Thoughtseize or Duress in this deck. We already have a good combo match up.

One question: how is Jace working for you? Is it worth those 2 slots?

I always played Countertop with 3 Tops. But ok, I'll add 1 because it's really synergic in this deck.

I know I play just 1 drop at 3 now, But it can be tutored and kept on top with Top. Having a second tutorable drop at 3 would be great, but I have no Idea on what to add or to cut.
Suggestions?

Btw there are also counterspells here to counter threats that evade my CB.

obituary 95
05-13-2010, 06:01 PM
This was the last list I played. You can find it and comments in the tournament reports section.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

6 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of Synod
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Side:

3 Meddling Mage
2 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Earthsworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre



My current list is:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility/Moat
2 Jace the Mindsculptor (to test) or the 1 Painter's Servant + 1 Grindstone I'm playing atm.

6 Island
4 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

Comments? :smile:
Insults? :mad:
Suggestions? :tongue:

i would cut a sword the explosives the shackles , and all the black out of the deck entirly.
the sword of the meek is unnesasary the shakles is to slow and the deck crutches on the ee . i also think that are worst match up is aggainst other counterbalance decks and becuse of that green is a far better splash

pippo84
05-13-2010, 06:44 PM
i would cut a sword the explosives the shackles , and all the black out of the deck entirly.
the sword of the meek is unnesasary the shakles is to slow and the deck crutches on the ee . i also think that are worst match up is aggainst other counterbalance decks and becuse of that green is a far better splash

And what do you suggest to add in these slots?

Sword of the Meek just comboes with Thopter Foundry..
Shackles is too slow? Have you ever tested it? It's really awsome in a slow deck as this one!
EE I half agree.. Most our permanents are at CC2, but you can explode and then cast things, or reset the board and start all over again..

The 1 and only Underground Sea is not there for a black splash. My build is just UW, it's there only for EE@3

obituary 95
05-13-2010, 07:02 PM
but wouldnt a tropical be better so you could cast k- grip

Anusien
05-13-2010, 07:11 PM
Having Enlightened Tutor to fiddle with Counterbalance does not excuse the fact that you haven't figured out yet that countering 3 drops is a good idea.

Nidd
05-13-2010, 07:12 PM
i would cut a sword the explosives the shackles , and all the black out of the deck entirly.
the sword of the meek is unnesasary the shakles is to slow and the deck crutches on the ee . i also think that are worst match up is aggainst other counterbalance decks and becuse of that green is a far better splash
First off, please fix your ortography. Then, use capital letters.

Why would you remove 1 keycomponent of the combo finish from the deck? Sword is necessary.
Also, EE is a very strong card. I can't imagine a matchup where they are bad.

Anusien
05-13-2010, 07:25 PM
I don't think I'd want more than 2 Foundry/1 Sword, and I'm considering going down to 1 Foundry in some matchups where it's not important. I don't see the logic of going to 3/2 instead of, say, 4/4. Most of the time Thopter Foundry is a blank anyway; I would absolutely hate seeing two. The only logic behind 2/1 instead of 1/1 is that sometimes the first one gets destroyed/pitched to Force, and it's significantly better to be able to tutor up #2 then dig up Academy Ruins.

spedn7
05-13-2010, 09:57 PM
What is the core of the deck besides 4 force of will and 4 e.tutor

obituary 95
05-14-2010, 12:05 AM
brainstorm is really good and i would like to say counterbalence top.

Raystar
05-14-2010, 03:54 AM
I know I play just 1 drop at 3 now, But it can be tutored and kept on top with Top. Having a second tutorable drop at 3 would be great, but I have no Idea on what to add or to cut.
Suggestions?

I would suggest adding a Crucible of Worlds, it would make the deck a lot more resilient against the removal of Academy Ruins and would allow to add (MD or SB) a wasteland or Dust Bowl to fight a Tabernacle or any difficult to manage lands threats.

This way you have another 3cc cost tutorable card and make the deck more robust against some of its weaker match-ups.

pippo84
05-14-2010, 09:37 AM
I would suggest adding a Crucible of Worlds, it would make the deck a lot more resilient against the removal of Academy Ruins and would allow to add (MD or SB) a wasteland or Dust Bowl to fight a Tabernacle or any difficult to manage lands threats.

This way you have another 3cc cost tutorable card and make the deck more robust against some of its weaker match-ups.

I thought of Crucible of Worlds when first building the deck, but I play no manlands, no Wastelands and a very solid manabase, soI think it'snot worth the slot.
To deal with problematic lands (which ones, just Tabernacle?) I had in my sideboard Wipe Away (:3:) uncounterable bounce..

Any ways if I had to add a :3: I would probably add 1 Oblivion Ring. Tutorable, and answers almost everything.

Muradin
05-15-2010, 02:35 PM
So I've been building on this deck for some time now and have come to a list without Enlightened Tutor as I feel that it loses most of its value postboard and makes you run useless silver bullets that are dead cards in quite some matchups. I actually think that the card is quite weak in general as most deck in the format seem to be well equipped to handle almost everything you could search up. Running Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top and Thirst for Knowledge has proven to be far more effective in my testing and tournament play so far.

My maindeck also features 4/3 Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek as those can be discarded to Thirst for Knowledge, the Foundrys are blue for FoW and are CC2 for Counterbalance. So far this also feels like the right number after I've tried several configurations, such as 2/1 with 4Tutors and 3/2 with 2-4 Tutors (which sucks most). Postboard I feel that in several matchups the whole CB + Top combo loses some of its value and that's why I feel that some other win conditions are definitely needed.

If I can get some more testing with my list I'll eventually post it. Besides that, props to Anusien, your last list looks very reasonable and strong thus far.

Anusien
05-16-2010, 04:24 PM
I'm more interested in the sideboard for an Enlightened Tutor-less build than the maindeck. I would drop Enlightened Tutor in a heartbeat if there were maindeck cards good enough (there probably are, like Spell Snare and Repeal) and I could figure out a sideboard that has a chance against the field.

3eowulf
05-19-2010, 09:51 AM
I played the following deck to a top4 in a field of 41 players:

// Lands
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Plains

// Spells
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist

Matchups where:
round1 - Affinity 1-1
round2 - Rock Survival 2-0
round3 - Jace Bant 2-1 (actually it would have been a draw with him in overwhelming board position after extra turns, but he gets pissed beacause I don't scoop, so he does)
round4 - ANT 2-1
round5 - Burn 2-0
round6 - ID
top8 - Aggro loam2-1
top4 - Enchantress 0-2 (I'm really tired and punt each game at least twice)

The maindeck was almost perfect but I'm wandering wheter a different winc-con (possibly instant) would be better:
- Painter+ Grind is less mana intensive but vulnerable to creature removal ad utterly useless without the other piece.
- Leyline + Helm requires too much mana but is situationally useful.

I'm also considering wheter intuition or a split might be better than thirst.

In the sideboard I'd probably drop some anti-aggro stuff for some more explosives since they're awesome, expecially with ruins out, and at least an aura of silence.

Vacrix
05-19-2010, 01:20 PM
I played the following deck to a top4 in a field of 41 players:

// Lands
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Wasteland
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Plains

// Spells
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist

Matchups where:
round1 - Affinity 1-1
round2 - Rock Survival 2-0
round3 - Jace Bant 2-1 (actually it would have been a draw with him in overwhelming board position after extra turns, but he gets pissed beacause I don't scoop, so he does)
round4 - ANT 2-1
round5 - Burn 2-0
round6 - ID
top8 - Aggro loam2-1
top4 - Enchantress 0-2 (I'm really tired and punt each game at least twice)

The maindeck was almost perfect but I'm wandering wheter a different winc-con (possibly instant) would be better:
- Painter+ Grind is less mana intensive but vulnerable to creature removal ad utterly useless without the other piece.
- Leyline + Helm requires too much mana but is situationally useful.

I'm also considering wheter intuition or a split might be better than thirst.

In the sideboard I'd probably drop some anti-aggro stuff for some more explosives since they're awesome, expecially with ruins out, and at least an aura of silence.
Dude I really like your list. Have you considered a singleton O-Ring? It gives you even more flexibility when dealing with troublesome permanents. It might have helped in your Enchantress matchup as well. Porphyry Nodes is another possibility that also gets rid of those pesky Shroud Enchantress (Nodes doesn't target).

arebennian
05-19-2010, 05:08 PM
Has anyone tried running Factories and putting a Proteus Staff + Beef in the sideboard for a quick win game 2/3 and circumvent the graveyard?

DragoFireheart
05-21-2010, 06:05 PM
I have a few questions about this deck:


1. Why not run Tarmogoyf? (note: virtual card advantage is not an answer).

2. What are the difficult matchups for this deck?

3. How does this deck handle graveyard hate (Relic, Crypt, Leyline, etc)?

4. Other than planeswalkers, what are some other win cons we can squeeze into this deck?

grahf
05-21-2010, 11:54 PM
I'm not yet an expert with this deck, but:

1. For me it's primarily a budget choice. I just have the cards to play UW control, but I wanted something with a faster win than traditional Landstill. Also, the manabase stability gained by keeping the deck 2 colors is nice.

2. From my limited testing, Merfolk is pretty tough, as it is for most countertop decks.

3. If you have a Sword of the Meek in the graveyard, and a Thopter Foundry in play, and your opponent activates a Crypt or Relic, you activate Foundry which triggers Sword, pulling it out of the 'yard before the Crypt/Relic ability resolves. Planar Void could be EE'd, Leyline would be pretty big trouble though, I'd just go for an alt-win at that point (factory + Elspeth for me).

4. Jotun Grunt, hate bear beatdown, Decree of Justice, or as suggested above Proteus Staff + something big, probably Progenitus or Emrakul. I don't think it really needs any of the above, but I like the Proteus Staff idea (that prerelease foil Emrakul wants to see some action).


I also have a question for folks: those who are playing Thirst for Knowledge as the primary draw spell, how's that working out for you? Personally I hated the card, as the mana cost felt awkward and I almost never had extra artifacts I wanted to pitch. I like Anusien's list with Trinket Mage, and my own is quite similar to Landstill, with Standstill.

About Intuition: I think the problem with that is it doesn't reliably get the whole combo. If your pile is Foundry, Sword, Academy Ruins, and your opponent gives you the Foundry, what then? You need to have some other artifact on the table to sacrifice in order to get the combo going. With Gifts you can throw an Argivian Find or Reconstruction into the pile, and not have that problem. But it seems Gifts isn't being run anymore either. Too slow?

nodahero
05-22-2010, 01:30 AM
There are alot better things we can and SHOULD be doing with 4 mana. We don't really have the time to waste on a gifts... I miss that card...

grahf
05-22-2010, 02:06 PM
Obviously you're right about Gifts... perhaps it would be somewhat more playable in a build of this deck using 2-mana lands and Chrome/Diamond Mox. But, I don't see much development on that version either. Unfortunately I don't think Intuition can replace it (feel free to prove me wrong).

An addendum on alternate win-cons that I forgot: Stoneforge Mystic, with fetchable Jitte or the Sword of the Meek.

bleuisforwhimps
05-22-2010, 03:56 PM
Maybe master of etherium as an alternate win con could be viable in a more artefact oriented list, you could even add ethersworn cannonist but that would be taking the deck in a completely new direction i guess.

obituary 95
05-25-2010, 10:10 PM
I have a few questions about this deck:


1. Why not run Tarmogoyf? (note: virtual card advantage is not an answer).

2. What are the difficult matchups for this deck?

3. How does this deck handle graveyard hate (Relic, Crypt, Leyline, etc)?

4. Other than planeswalkers, what are some other win cons we can squeeze into this deck?

tarmo gives our opponent something to do with there removal,so instead of blanking 4 plus cards we give them a target

the match-ups go something like this
zoo 50/50
folk 50/50
goblins 50/50 these all depend on how your opponent starts the game. some times if your opponent gets to quick of a start they can just run over you

lands game 1, 30/70 in there favor they have a really quick start and the only time i have actually one game one is when you combo out on turn three.but usually g2 is better becuse of gy hate

aggro loam
10/90
this match up is horrible they are just so fast .not to mention they have allot of ways to disrupt you

nodahero
05-26-2010, 01:55 PM
I gotta believe you pulled thlose numbers out of your @$$ Obituary.... Those numbers feel very inaccurate. Zoo is a fairly good matchup. As is Merfolk assuming LoA dosn't rip you a new hole.

My difference in view may be due to the lists we are each playing I suppose.

What does your current list look like?

obituary 95
05-26-2010, 05:30 PM
my current list looks like this

4 [B] Tundra
8 [9E] Island (4)
4 [R] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge

pippo84
05-26-2010, 06:35 PM
my current list looks like this

4 [B] Tundra
8 [9E] Island (4)
4 [R] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge

Why is Eternal Dragon there? It seems like crap. How is Daze working for you? I tried it and decided to take it away, almost all games are so long.

I started playing the list with Thirst for Knowledge, then cut it. But now I'm missing a draw engine or something with that purpose. Other than Standstill what would you suggest?

Vacrix
05-26-2010, 06:35 PM
How is Bridge working out? It seems counterintuitive in a control deck. Otherwise, it looks like a pretty good list.

obituary 95
05-26-2010, 08:22 PM
eternal dragon is there for the control on control match up ,he makes hands with two land dragon a keep . not to mention the match ups that play relevant hate for thopter-combo he can turn into a win condition on the fly

at first glance the bridge does seem counter intuitive but i believe it is correct.because we are not a old school control deck we don't rely on card draw to get silver bullets in for creatures. so that allows use the ability to use fow effects and tutors get out hand to a low level and just stop creatures and buy us time.

i know some one is going to come on the forum and critique the deck saying that there is two little amounts of cards that have a cmc of 3 for counterbalance.so i will answer this question proactively the cards that are remotely good in the 3 cmc slots are just really bad for the deck they are slow and don't actually help any poor match-ups so they should not be run.

daze has actually been testing really well in the deck .it allows me to use my counter spells early .and it is not as slow as counterspell ,but to be fair my meta is infested with copious amounts of zoo and other agro decks so..

if you want a card advantage engine you could try ponders md ,it could be good

critique the board i am playing
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

pippo84
05-27-2010, 06:53 AM
eternal dragon is there for the control on control match up ,he makes hands with two land dragon a keep . not to mention the match ups that play relevant hate for thopter-combo he can turn into a win condition on the fly

at first glance the bridge does seem counter intuitive but i believe it is correct.because we are not a old school control deck we don't rely on card draw to get silver bullets in for creatures. so that allows use the ability to use fow effects and tutors get out hand to a low level and just stop creatures and buy us time.

i know some one is going to come on the forum and critique the deck saying that there is two little amounts of cards that have a cmc of 3 for counterbalance.so i will answer this question proactively the cards that are remotely good in the 3 cmc slots are just really bad for the deck they are slow and don't actually help any poor match-ups so they should not be run.

daze has actually been testing really well in the deck .it allows me to use my counter spells early .and it is not as slow as counterspell ,but to be fair my meta is infested with copious amounts of zoo and other agro decks so..

if you want a card advantage engine you could try ponders md ,it could be good

critique the board i am playing
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist



In other decks I played I board out daze against zoo. Losing a land drop for this deck is not good, and letting zoo gain more tempo is bad too.

Sorry, but when did ponder become a card advantage card? It's card quality, not advantage. There is quite a difference.

allek
05-27-2010, 07:51 AM
Hi everyone!
I'm in the process of building this deck so I haven't tested it yet, but Counterspell seems a lot better than Daze which is rather weak without LD or a tempo-based strategy. Is Leyline-/Helmcombo in the sideboard too much danger of cool things? 2-4 slots are often dedicated to GY-hate anyway.

Regarding the question of 3-drops for the curve I think that Krosan Grip is the only spell really worth countering. Almost all other CMC3 spells are creatures, for which we have answers in STP and blocking thopters. Incidentally, Tutor for Shackles in response to War Monk/KotR/Clique being played not only counters it with CB in play, it also handles any creatures already in play.
Back to Krosan Grip: Against decks boarding grips, you're likely to board in 2 Perish and thus increasing your CMC3-count.

bleuisforwhimps
05-27-2010, 01:54 PM
Hi Allek, play spell pierce instead of counterspell, most of the things you counter are instants and sorceries anyway . I play a build with trinket mage who searches for meekstone or EE to take care of creatures and it works fine for me, I also play 3 stoneforge mystics as a tutor for Sword and zero E.tutors, must be me but I m not too fond of Enlightened tutor.

obituary 95
05-27-2010, 05:14 PM
In other decks I played I board out daze against zoo. Losing a land drop for this deck is not good, and letting zoo gain more tempo is bad too.

Sorry, but when did ponder become a card advantage card? It's card quality, not advantage. There is quite a difference.

actually you only board out daze on the draw on the play it is rather good since it can counter a early goyf ,and on the mater of a card advantage engion i have know idea of what you would play ponder was just a idea

Anusien
05-27-2010, 06:08 PM
Back to Krosan Grip: Against decks boarding grips, you're likely to board in 2 Perish and thus increasing your CMC3-count.
Perish seems worse than Firespout. Against NO, Perish is tons better, and aganist Zoo they're about even, but against Merfolk and similar decks, Firespout is much better.

Also, I've played with Shackles a lot. It's a huge liability. I've lost a lot of games because I spent 5 mana on a Shackles just to get it EOT gripped, untap and swing for lethal.

pippo84
05-27-2010, 06:28 PM
How are the Stoneforge Mystics working out?

I also thought about them, but never had the occasion to try them.

How many Thopter Foundry do you play since you have no tutors for that combo piece?

Anyone is trying some draw engine in this deck?
I was thinking of adding some Mox to speed up the deck and play heavier CC spells like Fact or Fiction or something else to draw cards, but I'm not sure if it's the right thing.

bleuisforwhimps
05-28-2010, 07:45 AM
The stoneforge mystics are great just because they buy you some time against aggro decks by chumpblocking , so are trinket mages. And I play 3 thopter foundry wich is enough because with these creatures you have additional shuffle effects + brainstorm,SDT so they are actually synergistic in that way too.

grahf
05-28-2010, 02:55 PM
Yup, I tried 4 Stoneforge Mystics at first but it was too much, the multiples were not as helpful, even with a Jitte in there, 3 is a good number. I'm trying 4 Moms, 3 Mystics, 3 Trinket Mage, 3 Vendilion Clique as my creature base, and Serra Avenger is a likely inclusion. It's very interesting how playing Mystic instead of E Tutor shifts the feel of the deck considerably from that of a Landstill variant. It becomes equipment Fish with a combo win, like some bastard child of UW tempo and Excalibur, except with Countertop.

obituary 95
05-29-2010, 01:34 PM
i am thinking about cutting academy ruins from the deck,most the time there ether too slow or just not relevent entirerly ,so what do you guys think should it stay ?or should it be axed for another basic or something

Whitewolf
06-03-2010, 02:20 PM
Regarding weather or not to cut the academy ruins depends largly on how many artifacts your running at key costs like 2 and 3(as you can return them with CB on the stack) as well as how often you can expect them to be blown up, in reality the ruins is for more of a lock peice with EE and that usually does not happen but in heavy control mirrors which you should have an edge in anyways, i only run one in SB.

Anusien
06-03-2010, 02:34 PM
I would never want to play the mirror without at least one, and maybe two.

pippo84
06-03-2010, 04:17 PM
Has anyone updated their list or tried something new in the deck?

SMR0079
06-03-2010, 07:50 PM
This is the first Coutertop list I have found that can go 50%+ against the field, including merfolk

11: Stack Control - 4Force, 4Counterbalance, 3Daze
11: Draw - 4Top, 4Brainstorm, 3Tutor
11: Board Control - 3 StP, 2Firespout, Shackles, Bridge, Moat, Explosives, Relic, Needle
5: Win - 2JAce, 3thopter/Sword
22: Land - 2 Ruins, 8 Fetch, 6 Basics, 6 duals

SB:
3 Grip
2 Counter Spell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Firespout
1 StP
2 PAth (1humility?)
1 Crypt
1 Wheel
1 Back to Basics
1 Canonist/Halo ?

I ended up settling for Daze as it helps me interact in the first few turns and survive into the mid to late game. Dropping down to three tutors and less dependence on silver bullets has been an improvement. I'm trying a maindeck split of 3/2 with Swords and Firespout, although runing less then 4 swords feels wrong.

I hope this helps, it's been performing for us.

Anusien
06-03-2010, 10:21 PM
I have a hard time believing that list can go >50% against Reanimator. I'm pretty sure you need some out to their guys.

SMR0079
06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
I have a hard time believing that list can go >50% against Reanimator. I'm pretty sure you need some out to their guys.

Reanimator is good, I play it as well, but it's not as tough for this list. We need to put more games in to really say definitively, but it appears to be failry even. When they get the turn 2 Iona/Inkwell with double counters they win. However, they can't always god draw you, and when the game slows down by just a turn or two, you can find bridge to stop them, or just lock them out with countertop if they have a slower hand. Null Rod is great for them in this match which makes me want a Wheel in the board. I"m a little light on yard hate, and thinking of cutting something in the board for more.

What would you change to improve the match up?

Anusien
06-04-2010, 04:58 PM
The best card I've found for that 15th card in the sideboard (that was Mystic Remora) is Compost. It has a lot of utility in a lot of matchups.

Also, I've traded in Sower of Temptation for a Porphyry Nodes, and Ensnaring Bridge for Noetic Scales. From my original maindeck, I'm -land, +1 blue spell, probably Jace #2.

obituary 95
06-05-2010, 05:31 PM
i have played against reanimater alot,and i have found that if you know what cards are important in the match up you should win as long as they do not get a way to reanimate turn 1

Anusien
06-07-2010, 03:17 PM
Okay, which cards do you consider important then? I'm assuming you mean something less obvious than "Don't let them put a fattie onto the battlefield if you can't deal with it, and don't let them resolve Mystical when you're all-in on Ensnaring Bridge."

ninja
06-07-2010, 05:31 PM
I've seen a lot of lists posted, most of which do not include include Seal of Removal, or Seal of Cleansing. Seal of Cleansing provides an answer to range of hate cards, from pithing needle to null rod to leyline. It's tutorable and nobody ever sees it coming. I played it at a BoM trial, and it was fantastic.

Seal of Removal is a much more narrow card, but provides a less costly blue out to reanimated ionas. Inkwell's and such all fall to bridge, and humilty is an expensive to re-animator. Maybe more wheel of sun and moon is require to beat this match-up more effectively.

Has anyone played with main deck moat? I'm debating moat vs. humility, and am unsure about which to I would use at a large event (200+).

obituary 95
06-07-2010, 06:51 PM
Okay, which cards do you consider important then? I'm assuming you mean something less obvious than "Don't let them put a fattie onto the battlefield if you can't deal with it, and don't let them resolve Mystical when you're all-in on Ensnaring Bridge."

lol this happened when you played me (ps i am death on mws)

has any one tested sideboarded games against zoo ,i played a sb game against zoo and he just kept korosan griping my artifacts . and that was the reason i lost against him . i am thinking about putting a meddling mage in the board to try and get k-grip . i have know idea if it is corect but it might be worth a shot

Anusien
06-08-2010, 11:20 AM
That very reason (tons of Krosan Grips) is why I don't rely on artifacts against Zoo. It's too easy to spend five mana Shackles a guy (which can be two turns) or whatever only to have them Grip it at EOT and kill you.

pippo84
06-08-2010, 11:22 AM
I already tried Meddling Mage in the board. Sometimes it was great, others just underwhelming. If they side out creature removal it's really good. In a match I had Pithing Needle on Qasali and Meddling Mage on Krosan Grip and he didn't have any outs from my combo.
Anyways I'm not sure if I would run it again because it can be great or useless.

Ansusien: on what do you rely against zoo? Firespout and?

ninja
06-08-2010, 02:30 PM
Every zoo player, game two, boards out: Path to Exile! I've been running 3-4 Gameslayer Angels in my side against those decks who just can't deal with it post board. I also run an extra 2 path to exile in the board, to bolster the 4 main deck stp. Seriously, Game 2 is a lock if you land one.

Arcadia
06-08-2010, 07:32 PM
I've tried the deck, and I have a few conclusions. Chrome mox and tfk are usually horrible. Maybe it's bc of my meta is full of blue, and I don't like to lose cards, but mox always stays in my hand until I can shuffle/discard. Mixing mox tutors and fow seems a bit dangerous. TFK is not bad, but sometimes you just don't have the artifact to discard, and it's a bit slow.

I've run a build without creatures MD and 3 cliques +1 baneslayer sb...and it's awsome. I'm thinking on using some more baneslayers and cliques. Not everyone SB out all the swords, but with clique you can win with creatures, and cycle krosan grips an other stuff. The problem is that I don't have enough room..but i'll figure it out.

I was very pleased by humility as 1-of in the sideboard. I would like to ask about merfolks and zoo matchup. In 2 tournaments I still haven't faced them..

SMR0079
06-09-2010, 03:29 AM
We cut Shackles and Crucible from the maindeck. Bridge and Moat main, with a humility in the board for pridemage and terrestadon. Firespout was replaced with path cutting red all together. Not sure whether thats right or not. My friend has a love affair with Cliq and currently has 2 maindeck, whereas I prefer Baneslayer Angel.

Zoo is tough with both pridemage and grips. Firespout or extra paths are definitly necassary.

SB Silver Bullets:
Cop Red, Canonist, Tsabo's Web, Wheel, Relic, Humility

(nameless one)
06-09-2010, 12:19 PM
Budget Time!

Alright Guys,

I will getting a playset of Flooded Strand sometime next month and since I have most of the cards from this deck, why not try to build a 'budget' version

Here is my 'budget' version (I call it budget since I am planning to use miniimal cash on cards to build the deck):




4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant

2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Plains
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den


I essentially used this as my template:


This is the first Coutertop list I have found that can go 50%+ against the field, including merfolk

11: Stack Control - 4Force, 4Counterbalance, 3Daze
11: Draw - 4Top, 4Brainstorm, 3Tutor
11: Board Control - 3 StP, 2Firespout, Shackles, Bridge, Moat, Explosives, Relic, Needle
5: Win - 2JAce, 3thopter/Sword
22: Land - 2 Ruins, 8 Fetch, 6 Basics, 6 duals

SB:
3 Grip
2 Counter Spell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Firespout
1 StP
2 PAth (1humility?)
1 Crypt
1 Wheel
1 Back to Basics
1 Canonist/Halo ?

I ended up settling for Daze as it helps me interact in the first few turns and survive into the mid to late game. Dropping down to three tutors and less dependence on silver bullets has been an improvement. I'm trying a maindeck split of 3/2 with Swords and Firespout, although runing less then 4 swords feels wrong.

I hope this helps, it's been performing for us.

I was thinking of using Tezzeret instead of Jace but I dont have him too (although I will be purchasing that Tezzeret vs. Elspeth deck)

Yes, I am aware that I am not running Dual Lands (not enough funds to purchase them).

Any friendly advice?

Thanks in advance!

Anusien
06-09-2010, 12:54 PM
I have Firespout and a Poryphyry Nodes. I had a disappointing run of games against Zoo so I'm gonna go back and figure out what's going on there and what I need to change. I've been somewhat less impressed with multiple Engineered Explosives than I would hope.

I am strongly considering something awful like a pair of Wall of Omens in the maindeck.

I am also not 100% confident in the Reanimator matchup. It's really frustrating having to sit back and be the reactive deck when they have so many ways to mess you up; especially post-board when they have Wipe Away.

kinglear
06-09-2010, 02:49 PM
I have taken a real interest in this deck and have most of the pieces. I see it being slow but extremely flexible. The question I keep asking my self is what colors? I feel UWb or UWg seem the best choices. I'll post up a decklist here soon after I can sort some more stuff out, I feel l like daze is weak in the list but may be a necessary evil. I have also been thinking crucible of worlds plus wasteland, does it seem too cute? Crucible fills one of the problems of a relevant, tutorable 3 drop for CB that could help in a lot of matchups. Along with tolaria west can result in another lock option.

Anusien
06-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Back to Basics is better than Crucible/Wasteland.

This thread doesn't need more random untested decklists.

Whitewolf
06-09-2010, 04:01 PM
@ kinglear, There is Definatly enough room in the deck to facilatate a third or fourth color, I personally prefer black but some if not most like the red/green splash for firespout to help out in aggro matchups. Green allows you to run Goyfs/k-grips/random jank so it's considerable. As for the inclusion of daze as your supplementary counterspell, it shoud be a decision based on your meta. I really dont think theres any one argument to put either Conterspell or Daze in the lead.

@ Anusien, what exactly is it that makes your E.E.'s not awsome?
Might it be the overlaping CMC of your matchups permanents?

Minosse
06-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Hello,

this is my version of the deck:

// Lands 22
4 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [IN] Island (2)
2 [OD] Plains (3)
3 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Spells 38
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ALA] Dispeller's Capsule
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [NE] Daze
3 [HOP] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will


I like a lot the sinergy between Academy Ruins, the various artifacts (Capsule, Seat, combo pieces) and TfK...
I also have cards with different cc for Counterbalance...


Bye

Anusien
06-09-2010, 05:48 PM
EE is just super slow. I was playing against Zoo and had the nuts draw where I knew I was playing against Zoo and I had the opportunity to lead out turn 1 on the play with EE and it was just so underwhelming; I had to spend two turns killing a Nacatl. I think you want access to one in the maindeck to remove Needles, Vials and when Zoo plays out two or three one-drops, but it's underwhelming as a primary line of defense. I shuffled it back a lot and didn't want it in my hand.

I don't really mind having EE wreck my board. If I have CB, I'm not likely to need EE (although sometimes I do. It's an extremely flexible card. In the same game I used it once to kill Jace and once to kill some Thopter tokens (I think I also killed a Thopter Foundry in that game).

I can't fathom running Daze in the same deck I run Humility/Moat and Jace, the Mindsculptor. Anyone saying this is a metagame call just doesn't know what's right. Saying "X is a metagame call" is generally supreme laziness and unwillingness to test.

unicoerner
06-09-2010, 05:56 PM
@ Anusien: Why are you so harsh to everyone around here? There`s no reason to think that your favourites are really the best calls. How do you know if deck list are untested?
And yes, this deck probably isn`t a Daze deck, but just imho.
Oh, i don`t like your list. But even that is just play style

Anusien
06-09-2010, 06:32 PM
I don't know if I'm right. But somebody has to stand up and start saying, "Some of your card choices are completely confusing and don't make any sense." Whether Daze is right in the deck isn't really an opinion. There is a truth about whether the card is right or not, and it's discoverable by testing. Saying "X card and Y card are fine metagame choices or up to personal privilege or whatever" detracts from the quality of the thread and helps people make bad decisions. This thread, like most others, needs less opinions and more facts.

SMR0079
06-09-2010, 07:47 PM
On the subject of Daze -

I understand the logic of not wanting to set back on land drops, we had counter spell in it's place for a long time. We ended up returning to Daze because the deck was struggling in the early game. Using it to make sure your spells resolve is much more preferable then just dazing there threats. It really shines against other blue decks, including reanimator/Storm. Whether a card is right or not is contextual - in certain matchups it is excellent, others it is not, both what you are playing and how you are using it make all the difference.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 10:16 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Anusien, Firefox logo. Daze makes little sense for this deck since:


1- We are more of a controllish deck that wants to get the land drops to ensure that we have mana for 4CMC spells, mana for Countertop and mana to make lots of flying 1/1 tokens.

2- We don't have mana accel like bant lists that use Noble, so losing a land drop sets us back quite a bit.

DragoFireheart
06-09-2010, 10:25 PM
I am strongly considering something awful like a pair of Wall of Omens in the maindeck.




Why is a cantripping Wall that blocks most of the creatures in the format bad? Well, it's bad with Nodes: why not just run more nodes? It's cheap and will easily start picking off annoying creatures. Even if the node kills two creatures, that's card advantage there. Saves swords for the larger things and let the nodes kill everything else: if they refuse to play creatures, you are winning.

SMR0079
06-10-2010, 12:07 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Anusien, Firefox logo. Daze makes little sense for this deck since:


1- We are more of a controllish deck that wants to get the land drops to ensure that we have mana for 4CMC spells, mana for Countertop and mana to make lots of flying 1/1 tokens.

2- We don't have mana accel like bant lists that use Noble, so losing a land drop sets us back quite a bit.

I understand where you are coming from - it's counter intuitive to include Daze. Do a search and you will find that more often then not Daze shows up in the Thopter lists that have had the most success.

Game one, you need Daze against any type of pseudo control mirror, or you just can't keep up. You and your opponent tap out so much in turns 1-4 in Legacy that Daze is necessary. The war over CounterTop often comes down to who can stick it with double back up. If you are not running Daze then you need some combination of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, REB in order to interact with other decks that have counters.

I don't want to sit back and play defense with counterspells - I want to establish stack control with Countertop and board control with Moat/Bridge. Daze helps me to establish both of those objectives by either helping to resolving those spells, or survive long enough to do so. The one mana it sets me back is negligible.

Don't forget that you can also hard cast it ;)

Whitewolf
06-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Props to SMR0079 on that particular conterpoint.

In fact i have tested Daze in my deck and i have found that it helps immensly within the matchups (ANT, Bant-top, Eva-green) i am likely to face in my areas meta which is why i said what i said, this doesn't mean that it's the best counterspell for the deck.

Currently i believe that the added flexibility of daze is trumped by the hard counter of counterspell in the deck but saying that Daze definativly destroys the gameplan of the deck seens narrow-minded at best.

In addition Anusien can say whatever comes to his/her mind, it doesn't matter to me, he/she is not in the least the final athority on determining what is the best for any deck.

DragoFireheart
06-10-2010, 03:16 PM
I have always hated the idea of "virtual card advantage" as all it does is force one to run bad cards. Burn use's the idea of virtual card advantage... not quite Tier 1. A deck shouldn't purposely try and create virtual while also sacrificing good cards that could fit into the deck.



Due to that idea, I wanted to try a hybrid of Bant and Thopter Countertop:



2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



Basically, instead of trying to get the combo of Thopter-top with random.jank support, I believe we should stick to using good cards.

Tarmogoyf for beats, Pridemage to blow up troublesome enchantments/artifacts. The sword can be equipped to the Gofy or Pridemage when you don't have foundry out. If the game drags on, you can get the Thopter-Meek combo rolling for life gain and chump swarms (the combo is much better than the stupid War Monk as it can end games and isn't as color intensive). This deck doesn't run humility, but that is the sacrifice made to be able to run Gofys to help with early on before you stabilize. I suppose you could run a couple of humility, though they are anti-synergistic with Gofys. I also look at Landstill decks and see how they have started to decline. This deck can't afford to be slow and controlling as the format is a bit fast for that.

This is just my take on how this deck could look if it went UWg.

The Treefolk Master
06-10-2010, 05:10 PM
Why don't you run Stoneforge Mystic (and maybe 1 jitte if you do) to tutor for the swords and as an alternative win condition (jitte + dude, specially Tarmogoyf).

I also think you should change your Tundra-Tropical Island numbers (6 green mana symbols in the deck, 9 white mana symbols in the deck).

unicoerner
06-10-2010, 05:36 PM
Lands
1 [OD] Plains (3)
7 [IN] Island (2)
4 [A] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

Hey guys. I am running neither Counterspell or Daze!
In my build, i am unsure about the Vedalken Shackles spot, this could be a Crucible aswell(Waste) is included then.
Shackles needs lots of Islands, but the Seats are Sweat with Thirst and Foundry.

Any other suggestions?

Anusien
06-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Why would you use Crucible over Back to Basics?

pippo84
06-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Actually I agree with Anusien this time..

DragoFireheart
06-11-2010, 02:52 PM
Why don't you run Stoneforge Mystic (and maybe 1 jitte if you do) to tutor for the swords and as an alternative win condition (jitte + dude, specially Tarmogoyf).

I also think you should change your Tundra-Tropical Island numbers (6 green mana symbols in the deck, 9 white mana symbols in the deck).

That's a good idea. I had the pridemage as an out vs any crazy artifact/enchantments.

obituary 95
06-11-2010, 09:58 PM
dragon fire heart, why do you run thirst for knowledge i thought by know it was a pretty common consensus that thirst was a little two slow. i also believe if i am not mistaken that most legacy players dislike jace on the same merit of why we dislike thirst

ninja
06-12-2010, 12:12 AM
You are terribly mistaken, Jace is disgustingly good. I would say that while playing this deck (not dragon's) I have won well over a quarter of my matches with Jace. When your combo goes broke, or when you can land and protect it with cb, jace serves a well required secondary win condition.

Thirst is a little bit of a controversial slot. However, if a list runs chrome mox it is almost a auto 4-of. With 4 sensei's, 4 mox, silver bullets that aren't match-up applicable in g1, it is a busted draw engine. Let alone a ditch outlet for sword. I personally would never cut it from my list, but I also play chrome mox.

SMR0079
06-12-2010, 12:22 AM
Lands
1 [OD] Plains (3)
7 [IN] Island (2)
4 [A] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

Hey guys. I am running neither Counterspell or Daze!
In my build, i am unsure about the Vedalken Shackles spot, this could be a Crucible aswell(Waste) is included then.
Shackles needs lots of Islands, but the Seats are Sweat with Thirst and Foundry.

Any other suggestions?

If you want to run Thirst then you need chrome mox. thopter sword should be 2/1 or 3/2 not 3/1.

How do you expect to resolve Counterbalance with only Force as your back up? Consider adding more secondary counters. Cut black and add green for Grip out the board. Add Back to Basics and Wheel of the Sun and Moon to your board as well.

ninja
06-12-2010, 12:45 AM
unicoerner, love the list. I have some question's though:

1) 3 enlightened tutor's seems awkward when making a tool box as a sideboard. Why 3?
2) How have you liked O-ring?
3) How have you like plague out of the board?

I like the mana base, however I found I liked 2 plains, 3 tundra. I also play chrome mox to create explosiveness (turn 3 moat/ humility, turn 1 cb, gives thopter foundry something to sack), but also works well with thirst. Have you tried chrome mox out?

Also a little tidbit which seems controversial, I don't play with the tormod's in the main just because it's so narrow. Ichorid, lands, loam, re-animator are in my opinion completely beatable without it. I know it's nice to have, but I found I've hated drawing it or having it in my opening hands in irrelevant match-ups. Same can be said about shackles, but I found I've won quite a few g1s stealing diddies or knights. Just mentioned this to help make the list more "compact". Maybe this could be used towards a 4th tutor? You're sb will love you for it.

p.s. wheel of sun and moon is a dec option out of the board. Seal of cleansing is a great anti-hate against needle, rod, leyline, also boardable against cb. Love the deck tho!

my list:
// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 STP
4 Counterbalance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
1 Humility
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek
SB: 1 Thopter Foundry
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Moat

REALLY want to put spell pierce or counterspell in the board. What's the first sb cut?

Arcadia
06-12-2010, 09:52 AM
About Daze. I'm unsure but I think it's necessary: You have lots of things to do in turn 1 and 2, just as your opponents and you can't afford spell snare or counterspell. Sure, you run some cost 4...but you don't want to cast jace on turn 4. Jace is good vs control and when the game is stable, so you need to wait to play it. As I see it, the main goal of daze is try to have a fast start with balance, top, thopters or whatever while you can counter some threat or protect yourself. Anyway, i will try some built without them.

My decklist

// Lands
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
1 Trinket Mage

// Spells
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Thirst for Knowledge

The reason for trinket, firespout and TFK is that I want some cost three. Trinket is the 4th tutor, and TFK is card advantage and I need it. I think 1-2 is the correct number. Jace is another win condition and card advantage, and moat...wins by itself. You can change it by humility. Firespout is nice, but that forces you to run red. Green is for 1 reverent silence on sb and Krosans.

I don't want to write too much about.. I want to include 1-2 cost 3 cards more, but I don't know what to remove. Maybe relic (and with that, trinket too), since it's not an excelent card..but it's useful a lot of times. The only cost that I have too many cards is 1 and I think I can't remove any of them. The other problem is the number of colors and # of lands. Do you think firespout is a must?

obituary 95
06-12-2010, 11:24 AM
i have been playing a blue white thopter deck and have never really needed firespout

Anusien
06-12-2010, 01:25 PM
Jace is awesome. It's the single best card in control mirrors, possibly even over CB because there are so many awesome answers to CB and Goyf that don't answer Jace (like Grip).

I've added some Counterspells to my list over Engineered Explosives. They were surprisingly good, even against Zoo and UW Tempo.

Arcadia
06-13-2010, 09:40 AM
The problem is that there are very few 'control' decks in legacy. At least in my meta. There's a lot of aggro-control and aggro, where a brainstorm or a boomerang doesn't do much if the game isn't stable. So I would never run 3, at most 2 depending on your metagame. I think it would be nice as 1-of in the sb.

Anusien
06-13-2010, 08:26 PM
I actually used one two nights ago against UW Tempo. I got like two full time walks and a card out of it. He had a tapped Mother of Runes and a freshly cast Serra Avenger. I bounced the Serra Avenger and passed. He untapped, recast the Avenger and passed. I fatesealed myself, put some blank on the bottom, and he had to attack with Mother and Avenger to punch out Jace. Not amazing, but not a blank by any means. You could easily ramp a Jace up to lethal against Zoo with other pieces. And having bounce + CB in place is pretty nice. Jace also has some amazing synergies with E-Tutor.

I'm not saying go crazy. I have 2, and I don't think I want more in the main. I had just one and wanted it more often, even against beatdown decks. You could sideboard a 3rd.

Also, Jace is a nice kill condition against ANT and Reanimator because it prevents them from winning while you kill them because you just fateseal their gas away.

unicoerner
06-14-2010, 09:32 AM
unicoerner, love the list. I have some question's though:

1) 3 enlightened tutor's seems awkward when making a tool box as a sideboard. Why 3?
2) How have you liked O-ring?
3) How have you like plague out of the board?

I like the mana base, however I found I liked 2 plains, 3 tundra. I also play chrome mox to create explosiveness (turn 3 moat/ humility, turn 1 cb, gives thopter foundry something to sack), but also works well with thirst. Have you tried chrome mox out?

Also a little tidbit which seems controversial, I don't play with the tormod's in the main just because it's so narrow. Ichorid, lands, loam, re-animator are in my opinion completely beatable without it. I know it's nice to have, but I found I've hated drawing it or having it in my opening hands in irrelevant match-ups. Same can be said about shackles, but I found I've won quite a few g1s stealing diddies or knights. Just mentioned this to help make the list more "compact". Maybe this could be used towards a 4th tutor? You're sb will love you for it.

p.s. wheel of sun and moon is a dec option out of the board. Seal of cleansing is a great anti-hate against needle, rod, leyline, also boardable against cb. Love the deck tho!

my list:
// Lands
3 Tundra
2 Plains
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 STP
4 Counterbalance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
1 Humility
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek
SB: 1 Thopter Foundry
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Moat

REALLY want to put spell pierce or counterspell in the board. What's the first sb cut?

Imo -1 Foundry +1 Tutor is def. a good option.
O-Ring can bet Tutored is CC3 and this is quite good on his own. BEing ablto remove everything what disturbs us is really worth the spot.
I am really not sure about the Plague, and this def depends on your meta and which colour you want to splash. We play basically 5 Plagues( with Legendary rule) in g2/3. Imo it`s good in thew side.

On the Chrome Mox: It`s carddisandvantage and we already play Tutors and lots of our other cards trade 1/1. I haven`t found it too problematic, if i have to wait until turn 2 or 3 to drop sth relevant. Turn 1 Sensei is still sick and we have lots of other CC1 in our deck.

Perhaps i have to cut 2 Thirst without the Seats and Crucible ( which was very unimpressing) and add some Pierce or Snares.


On Crucible: It has good Interaction with Thirst, by recycling Seats and we can create one token each round with Foundry. Being able to get our ruins back seems quite good aswell.

Anusien
06-14-2010, 10:44 AM
Playing Crucible to get back lands we've lost to Legend rule or Wasteland has always seemed really unimpressive to me. Just run more fetchlands and fewer dual lands. The manabase I run is actually really good, with 5 Islands and 8 fetchlands.

If you want to lock out wastelands and manlands and stuff, Back to Basics is super strong.

unicoerner
06-14-2010, 11:22 AM
I try B2B right now. Being pitchable is n1 aswell.

What do you think about MOxen?

obituary 95
06-14-2010, 01:11 PM
i personally do not like the idea of playing moxen .we already run out of cards rather quickly so i don't really see a need to accelerate that. besides if we play moxen how will that help the deck . its not like the deck needs mana excel so i don't see the point in playing them

pippo84
06-15-2010, 10:55 AM
Before beginning this post I want to say that I don't like posting new ideas without testing them, but I'll do an exception this time. This list jumped into my mind and so I will just write it down.
The idea came when I wanted a deck that could control the game and draw some cards. It was also made thinking af a tournament with these expected decks: Merfolk, Zoo, Gonlins, NO Bant, Reanimator and ANT.
A problem I always faced with this deck is wanting to draw cards.

21 lands. Would be nice to cut 1 card to reach 22.

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinket Mage
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Elspeth or Jace the Mindsculptor

Choices I did, just the uncommon ones.

Daze: I usually don't think that it's good in this deck as I already stated in previous posts, but having protected spells when tapping out can be good: see the 3 cc drops and a second turn cb.
Firespout: against swarm decks it's MVP so why not play it in the main? It's also virual card advantage, and the same goes for EE and CB.
Relic of progenitus: We don't play Goyf. It shrinks Goyf and so it goes under Firespout. It also gives an edge on the first match against Dredge, Reanimator, ANT (going for IGG), Loam, Survival etc. And it's never a dead card, because you can always cicle it away. Another part of this deck concept. Small card advantage + virtual CA.
Thirst for Knowledge: it's an instant speed drawing effect and there are many artifacts to support it well.

The rest is quite usual.
What?? No Enlightened Tutor? Exactly. With virtual card advantage (Firespout, EE, CB) and small CA (Relics and Trinket Mage) + T4K the deck manipulates well if we also count Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining top so it's shouldn't be needed because there are no silver bullets here. I would just like to have 1 or a 3rd Sword to enable the combo better.

Still have not thought of a sideboard.

Merrfolk, Zoo and Goblins should be ok having the mass removals MD, Reanimator should be ok with counters and Relics, ANT should be ok with CB+Top and Counters. NO Bant should be 50%. Both have CB, they have a faster finish, but we have a lifegain combo..

Thoughts and comments?
I will test it asap..

Anusien
06-15-2010, 02:47 PM
It's been 7 pages without posting my list, so I'm going to do it. I need the context because I'm trying to figure out what to replace one card with. Before I do, here are the things I feel strongly about:

Crucible of Worlds: You shouldn't need this for Wasteland protection. Just build your manabase stronger. The one below I included is pretty ridiculously good, actually. Sometimes Humility is hard to cast with only the one Plains, but you already sometimes have problems casting Counterbalance on 2 because of the 5 spells that don't cast CB. Then again, Dreadstill had 7 and it got there. Against maybe half the decks you care about, you don't cast CB until turn 3 anyway because of Daze. So you get the chance to look with Top on turn 2. If you just want to Wastelock somebody, run Back to Basics instead.

Daze: I really think this card is kind of bad. I don't think it's worth giving up a land drop most of the time. With CB, I just want to get to turns 4-6 or so where i can dominate my opponent with my superior, more expensive cards and strategies. I'd rather play Counterspell and just not tap out on turn 2. It's slightly harder to play CB on 2, but it's exciting with E-Tutor where you can play CB on 2, get it Forced and play CB on 3 too.

Tutors: I love the tutors. It turns out that the best decks in the format are all built around tutoring. What I don't like are the useless targets. The card you tutor up with E-Tutor has to be worth a card and a draw step. Crucible of Worlds is not. Relic of Progenitus is not. The bullets that win you the game in one matchup and are blanks in the others belong in the sideboard. I find that for all that people talk about using E-Tutor to find the right converted mana costs, I never do.

So here's my list. I need a card to replace Oblivion Ring, because it basically doesn't do anything:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinket Mage
3 Enlightened Tutor

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Humility

5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Noetic Scales
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Compost

Options:
4th Enlightened Tutor, 3rd Jace, the Mindsculptor, 4th Trinket Mage, 1st Back to Basics, 1st Relic of Progenitus, 1st Tormod's Crypt.
Are there other other reasonable choices? Is there one of these that is actually better than the others?

pippo84
06-15-2010, 02:56 PM
It's been 7 pages without posting my list, so I'm going to do it. I need the context because I'm trying to figure out what to replace one card with. Before I do, here are the things I feel strongly about:

Crucible of Worlds: You shouldn't need this for Wasteland protection. Just build your manabase stronger. The one below I included is pretty ridiculously good, actually. Sometimes Humility is hard to cast with only the one Plains, but you already sometimes have problems casting Counterbalance on 2 because of the 5 spells that don't cast CB. Then again, Dreadstill had 7 and it got there. Against maybe half the decks you care about, you don't cast CB until turn 3 anyway because of Daze. So you get the chance to look with Top on turn 2. If you just want to Wastelock somebody, run Back to Basics instead.

Daze: I really think this card is kind of bad. I don't think it's worth giving up a land drop most of the time. With CB, I just want to get to turns 4-6 or so where i can dominate my opponent with my superior, more expensive cards and strategies. I'd rather play Counterspell and just not tap out on turn 2. It's slightly harder to play CB on 2, but it's exciting with E-Tutor where you can play CB on 2, get it Forced and play CB on 3 too.

Tutors: I love the tutors. It turns out that the best decks in the format are all built around tutoring. What I don't like are the useless targets. The card you tutor up with E-Tutor has to be worth a card and a draw step. Crucible of Worlds is not. Relic of Progenitus is not. The bullets that win you the game in one matchup and are blanks in the others belong in the sideboard. I find that for all that people talk about using E-Tutor to find the right converted mana costs, I never do.

So here's my list. I need a card to replace Oblivion Ring, because it basically doesn't do anything:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinket Mage
3 Enlightened Tutor

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Humility

5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Noetic Scales
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Compost

Options:
4th Enlightened Tutor, 3rd Jace, the Mindsculptor, 4th Trinket Mage, 1st Back to Basics, 1st Relic of Progenitus, 1st Tormod's Crypt.
Are there other other reasonable choices? Is there one of these that is actually better than the others?


I would add the 4th Enlightened Tutor because it gives you more chance of seeing it.
I would do it because you have a sideboard of singletons (even I did).

Anusien
06-16-2010, 01:28 AM
The card is good but I don't know if it's that good. I intentionally started at 3 because I wanted to de-emphasize the role of the card in the deck so I didn't just get blown out by hate.

Vacrix
06-16-2010, 03:29 AM
Thats a solid list Anusien, with an exception. Isn't 4 SDT 1 too many when you have 3 Trinket Mage, 3 Enlightened Tutor, and cantrips to find it? Cutting it to 3 might be better so you can fit in one more EE.

Also, props on not running Thirst for Knowledge. I think that slot was very weak in most of the builds I've seen.

Aggro_zombies
06-16-2010, 04:33 AM
Jace TMS can be pretty OP sometimes. If you want to cut the Oblivion Ring, I'd recommend the third Jace instead.

pippo84
06-16-2010, 05:51 AM
Thats a solid list Anusien, with an exception. Isn't 4 SDT 1 too many when you have 3 Trinket Mage, 3 Enlightened Tutor, and cantrips to find it? Cutting it to 3 might be better so you can fit in one more EE.

Also, props on not running Thirst for Knowledge. I think that slot was very weak in most of the builds I've seen.

You need some way to create card advantage other than the virtual one from CB. And this deck is slow and needs to draw cards. Any other option?
I started with T4K, then cut it and now I'm putting it again because you need to draw in some way.

Anusien
06-16-2010, 10:06 AM
You don't necessarily need to generate card advantage (although Trinket Mage draws you a card!). This is a dirty dirty myth I see propagated all over the place.

Aggro_Zombies: Is 4 4-drops too many at that point? I'm worried about fanning open a hand and having to mulligan because it has 2 lands and two Jaces and a Humility and a Top or something.

4 Top is a myth. Yes, you can tutor for it, but if you want to CB lock them out on turn 3, you pretty much need Top on 1, CB on 2. Tutoring up Top ruins this plan, especially if it's turn 4 from a Trinket Mage. Plus, you don't ever want to have to use E-tutor on a Top, although I've done it.

Maveric78f
06-16-2010, 10:28 AM
Plus, you don't ever want to have to use E-tutor on a Top, although I've done it.

I always do it when I have CB in play. Generally I wait until my opponent plays a 1CC spell but I even sometimes do it before.

pippo84
06-16-2010, 12:29 PM
You don't necessarily need to generate card advantage (although Trinket Mage draws you a card!). This is a dirty dirty myth I see propagated all over the place.

Aggro_Zombies: Is 4 4-drops too many at that point? I'm worried about fanning open a hand and having to mulligan because it has 2 lands and two Jaces and a Humility and a Top or something.

4 Top is a myth. Yes, you can tutor for it, but if you want to CB lock them out on turn 3, you pretty much need Top on 1, CB on 2. Tutoring up Top ruins this plan, especially if it's turn 4 from a Trinket Mage. Plus, you don't ever want to have to use E-tutor on a Top, although I've done it.

Sure a control deck with empty hands will control the game for ages..
So your plan is stic a cb + top and control the game. If for whatever reason you can't to it you simply lose because you emty your hand as fast as belcher?

I think that Enlightened Tutor is good, but overrated. I would play 4 if you have a singleton sideboard just for consistency. It's card quality, but also cards disadvantage and you have no way to regain it except for virtual CA with CB.
Btw since so many aggro decks are around I really think that having 3 Firespout MD is a good call. Even when Landstill was around the deck packed Wrath of God and Swords to Plowshares.

I think that Enlightened Tutor should be in the deck if you want to put singletons like Moat, Humility and Vedalken Shackles. For EE, Top and Pithing Needle Trinket Mage should be played.

Anusien
06-16-2010, 12:35 PM
I always do it when I have CB in play. Generally I wait until my opponent plays a 1CC spell but I even sometimes do it before.
Oh for sure I'll do it, and it'll sometimes be the best play. But I'd much rather just play Top on turn 1 (since it's the best card in the deck and all) and save the Enlightened Tutors to fetch Humility or Sword of the Meek or something.

Arcadia
06-16-2010, 03:53 PM
Card advantage is not totally necessary when most of the decks don't have them. If you can soft-lock with counterbalance, that's REAL card advantage. And you don't need card advantage if you already win with thopter-sword. Anyway, I think that it's good to run something to fight more controlish decks and refill you're hand.

Options:
Court hussar, Compulsive research
TFK
Dark confidant
Jace

I prefere 1-2 tfk, 1-2 Jace but I want to try hussar or compulsive research.

Aggro_zombies
06-16-2010, 04:03 PM
Aggro_Zombies: Is 4 4-drops too many at that point? I'm worried about fanning open a hand and having to mulligan because it has 2 lands and two Jaces and a Humility and a Top or something.
I don't think it matters much; you can already open hands with Jace, a Humility, and two lands in them. Top and Brainstorm can help find more lands, but if you want to smooth your draws then the next option is Ponder, which is hardly exciting. I mean, you're playing a control deck in Legacy. Of course you are going to get hands that have some awkward mix of business and responsive elements and then get run over by people who build their decks to not do that.

Jace is card quality, board control, and a win condition in a single card and forces the opponent to split his resources between addressing your combo and addressing Jace. That alone is a reason to try to max out on them, IMO.

What are the Counterspells for, by the way? Supporting your curve? I'd rather have Spell Pierce or Spell Snare in those slots, given how incredibly lackluster Counterspell is even in situations where it's good.

SMR0079
06-16-2010, 04:07 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33300

Here is the build I designed for my friend Paul who made top 16 in his first large Legacy event. It was enough to make him do a 180 from standard to legacy.

The volcanic and Trop count got switched. He never sided in the 3rd Path and are considering alternatives. We have gone back and fourth between path and firespout in the sb slots.

I was on the fence about Clique at first but have grown to appreciate it's versatility in the deck. We found shackles to be redundant, and Crucible inconsequential. Staying as close to 2 colors as possible in the maindeck gave us a better game against the field then adding Bob or Firespouts main.

Traditional card advantage is unnecessary in most Legacy matchups. Tempo as a loose concept is really much more important. Focus on what matters in each match up - controlling the stack with counter top and the board with Moat/Bridge. That combination buys back any card disadvantage from tutor. You are often in a situation where you have locked up the board and stack with 0-1 cards in hand, a Jace in play, and can almost not loose even without any cards in hand.

obituary 95
06-16-2010, 04:15 PM
i actually have been running wall of omens as of late so that i can have a cantriping wall to give me some type of card advantage.the problem i have with the idea of having no card advantage is that you become less resilient to hate . and because you have no card advantage you make the deck weaker to things that cannot be countered such as krosan grip or vexing shusher. making the deck reliant on the counterbalance combo which after board is easier to disrupt and can be done by a lot of decks. not to mention if you ever fall behind on board advantage you just lose

sauce
06-16-2010, 04:41 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33300

Here is the build I designed for my friend Paul who made top 16 in his first large Legacy event. It was enough to make him do a 180 from standard to legacy.

The volcanic and Trop count got switched. He never sided in the 3rd Path and are considering alternatives. We have gone back and fourth between path and firespout in the sb slots.

I was on the fence about Clique at first but have grown to appreciate it's versatility in the deck. We found shackles to be redundant, and Crucible inconsequential. Staying as close to 2 colors as possible in the maindeck gave us a better game against the field then adding Bob or Firespouts main.

Traditional card advantage is unnecessary in most Legacy matchups. Tempo as a loose concept is really much more important. Focus on what matters in each match up - controlling the stack with counter top and the board with Moat/Bridge. That combination buys back any card disadvantage from tutor. You are often in a situation where you have locked up the board and stack with 0-1 cards in hand, a Jace in play, and can almost not loose even without any cards in hand.

how do you even begin to combat goblins w/o firespout, moat and 4 stp seem like the only outs you have to not die.

DragoFireheart
06-16-2010, 05:58 PM
Is it viable to not run Enlightened Tutor? I really do not like it and would rather run 4/4 Sword/thopter and run something like TfK or some other card drawing spell.

The_Red_Panda
06-16-2010, 06:33 PM
Predict. It costs 2 for counterbalance, filters away a bad card, is an instant so you can cast it EoT while leaving mana open, and nets you the same card advantage as a TfK.

TFK:
+3 (Cards drawn)
-1 (TFK)
-1 (artifact pitched)
+3 -1 -1 = +1

Predict
+2 (cards drawn)
-1 (predict)
+2 -1 = +1

Predict also lets you see the same number of cards, as it's going to filter away a dead card (not unlike TFK). But it isn't forcing you to run way too many artifacts and it doesn't cost 3 mana.


On a less productive note, how do you guys not ROLL OVER to qasali pridemage? The deck's putting up results, so pridemage can't be completely ruining your day, but if you're stalling against zoo with Countertop or ensnaring bridge/moat, how does a resolved pridemage not wreck you? Do you force that sucker if you see him? Do you try to plow before you land CBtop/Moat/Bridge? What's the general strategy against pridemage?

SMR0079
06-16-2010, 06:59 PM
Running the tutor allows you to find Moat or Bridge which stops aggro. This makes Goblins fairly easy. Zoo is much more difficult post side with grip because they can force you to out a 1 or 2 on top then Grip the Moat/bridge and come over with the alpha strike. I have run Firespout instead of Path for this reason, and we go back and fourth on it. Path is better against Merfolk because they can waste your 2 volcanics, and Daze/cursecatcher the firespout.

On the subject of tutor - if you don't understand how unnecessary drawing extra cards is in most legacy match ups you won't appreciate enlightened tutor. It allows you to run the singletons and combo/lock peice that generate more card advantage then any draw spells will. The alternative is to try TfK/Chrome Mox, and more redundancy, with less dependece on silver bullets like moat. Maxing out on Thopter Sword is a good idea if you choose this strategy. Otherwise, if you want to draw extra cards just play landstill.

Wall of omens is fine - or you good just run more Paths. Once again, you don't have time to sit back and draw cards. Your objective is to balance controling the board while setting up counter top, or control the board while setting up thopter sword. Grip is the only relevant hate card that really disrupts this plan, but it is common and you need to play with it in mind.

Red panda,

I've been wanting to try Predict for some time - thanks for the reminder. Pridemage is a beating, Plow him, counter him, needle him, or find a 2 drop for the lock. It comes down to focusing on what matters in each match up at any given moment, which is a skill that takes time and practice. I know as I'm very much still trying to learn it.

pippo84
06-17-2010, 03:05 PM
Looking at the lists that made top8 I saw some 3/2 and 2/1 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split.
What do you suggest and why? I would opt for a 3/2 split because you have more chance to see them. The only reason to run a smaller split in my opinion is for space.
Thoughts?

SMR0079
06-17-2010, 04:38 PM
Looking at the lists that made top8 I saw some 3/2 and 2/1 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split.
What do you suggest and why? I would opt for a 3/2 split because you have more chance to see them. The only reason to run a smaller split in my opinion is for space.
Thoughts?

It's really about space more then any thing else. I prefer to max out on tutors and run a 2/1 split. In our list the only cards I would be comfortable cutting for extra combo pieces is Clique, but then we go down to only 1 three drop.

I'd like someone to try and develop a competitive list that runs tfk and more combo pieces. Here's a rough skeleton for those of you who hate on tutors and Daze ;)

12 Draw: 4 TfK 4Top 4 BS
8 Stack control: 4 FoW 4 CB
9 Win Conditions: 7 Combo, 2 JAce
8 Board Control: 4 StP, 2 Humilty, 2 Explosives
23 Mana: 3 Mox 20 land

SB: Grips, Firespout, Counters, Yard Hate

Deck wants a Baneslayer I think, and maybe more removal.

pippo84
06-17-2010, 05:03 PM
I never tried the moxen in this deck because they don't convince me. Do you need to be fast? Don't think so. Enlightened tutor is Card disadavantage and same for the moxen. Ok, they work well with T4K, but that's it.

SMR0079
06-17-2010, 05:18 PM
I never tried the moxen in this deck because they don't convince me. Do you need to be fast? Don't think so. Enlightened tutor is Card disadavantage and same for the moxen. Ok, they work well with T4K, but that's it.

Cards like Tutor or CMox set you back one card with the expectation that their return will put you much further ahead. It doesn't matter if I'm down one card once I've blanked my opponents spells 1, 2 drops, blanked their attack, or on my way to making thopter tokens. Now if the card you tutor for is countered you could be in trouble.

C Mox may be unnecessary but it allows you to run TfK, which otherwise is slow and clunky. Not to mention speeding up the turn you resolve something like Humility is the difference between life and death.

Seriously though, if you have such a problem with it play Bob, or just switch to Landstill.

pippo84
06-18-2010, 06:12 AM
Cards like Tutor or CMox set you back one card with the expectation that their return will put you much further ahead. It doesn't matter if I'm down one card once I've blanked my opponents spells 1, 2 drops, blanked their attack, or on my way to making thopter tokens. Now if the card you tutor for is countered you could be in trouble.

C Mox may be unnecessary but it allows you to run TfK, which otherwise is slow and clunky. Not to mention speeding up the turn you resolve something like Humility is the difference between life and death.

Seriously though, if you have such a problem with it play Bob, or just switch to Landstill.

...I was just asking people's opinion on Chrome Mox....

Sorry if I'm trying to see diffeternt opinions and thoughts...................

DragoFireheart
06-18-2010, 07:46 AM
Cards like Tutor or CMox set you back one card with the expectation that their return will put you much further ahead. It doesn't matter if I'm down one card once I've blanked my opponents spells 1, 2 drops, blanked their attack, or on my way to making thopter tokens. Now if the card you tutor for is countered you could be in trouble.

C Mox may be unnecessary but it allows you to run TfK, which otherwise is slow and clunky. Not to mention speeding up the turn you resolve something like Humility is the difference between life and death.

Seriously though, if you have such a problem with it play Bob, or just switch to Landstill.


Wait, why can't this deck also aim for card drawing? Landstill isn't a good card for shits and giggles.

Arcadia
06-18-2010, 03:56 PM
...I was just asking people's opinion on Chrome Mox....

Sorry if I'm trying to see diffeternt opinions and thoughts...................

You have 4 Fow, 3-4 tutors and you have to pitch cards to fow too. Lots of times I wanted to play mox, but cards in hand were more important than speed (vs. blue that's always). With mox you can play TFK but you don't have so many artifacts to discard.

Tammit67
06-20-2010, 03:01 AM
Playing this deck for the first time, and I'm having a hard time against zoo. Surely its not going to be easy, but I feel a quick combo is about all I can do against the quicker versions that see play these days. Thoughts?

pippo84
06-21-2010, 01:12 PM
Just for your info this s my latest list I am currently testing:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabloic Edict
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Esper Charm
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Side:

3 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
1 Aethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce


Probably if Reanimator won't see play or if it will see less changes some choices should be seen again (eg. Diabolic Edict, Karakas).
Yes, there are just 3 Sensei's Divining Top: Space Reasons. Also I would like to have room for 1 Vedalken Shackles, but I think that the list is quite tuned this way.
I am sure some of you will think that Esper Charm is a bit "clunky" to play, and probably it is, more testing will give me answers. Anyways 1 card that can make you: draw 2, destroy an enchantment or force the opponent to discard 2 cards seems quite nice to me.

:cool:

obituary 95
06-21-2010, 08:03 PM
Just for your info this s my latest list I am currently testing:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabloic Edict
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Esper Charm
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Side:

3 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
1 Aethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce


Probably if Reanimator won't see play or if it will see less changes some choices should be seen again (eg. Diabolic Edict, Karakas).
Yes, there are just 3 Sensei's Divining Top: Space Reasons. Also I would like to have room for 1 Vedalken Shackles, but I think that the list is quite tuned this way.
I am sure some of you will think that Esper Charm is a bit "clunky" to play, and probably it is, more testing will give me answers. Anyways 1 card that can make you: draw 2, destroy an enchantment or force the opponent to discard 2 cards seems quite nice to me.

:cool:

wow your list looks really good but have you tried predict , i have actually have begun to test it and its flexibility has made it amazing

kinda
06-21-2010, 11:52 PM
This is what I would do:

4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
2 island
2 plains
2 ancient tomb

4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 counterbalance
4 swords to plowshares
1 moat

4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
1 predict

4 enlightened tutor
3 proteus staff
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek

1 emrakul, the aeons torn

2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 elspeth, knight errant

pippo84
06-23-2010, 07:43 AM
From my list if Reanimator shows less and more aggro decks are played I will change the 2 Diabolic Edicts for 2 Wrath effects.

@Kinda: I would play just 1 Proteus Staff and add the 4th Counterbalance and the 4th Top.

@obituary85: I haven't yet tested Predict. I see it's a solid choice with Top. I'll try it after some more testing with Esper Charm.

Pelikanudo
06-23-2010, 09:41 AM
Why no body plays Tezzerete in this build, I find it key, I recognize it +1 mana tan Jace, however it's key, Ive been playing the list with +1 City of traitors and really love this apprach, I mean the hability to play Tezz in 4th turn and helped as well by moxen, the unique reason I would run mox if to play as soon as possible both Tezz or Gifts Ungiven, thats why Im thinking in adding more city of traitors or something like that,

Tezz-> Bridge is an auto win most of the times
Tezz -> Sword and next Thopter --> win with mana open
Tezz-> Nedle --> saves us from complicated situations
I have to say that the c.b approach is in my opinion at least for these archetypes a must
therefore E.Tutor should be a must to,
however the doubt that consumes me is as I find Tezz a Must what should I run to accelerate it and not loosing card advantage, as I said the single City worked well when I drew it, I need a mixture of Tezz, Tutor and c.b and I need it works well

pippo84
06-23-2010, 11:10 AM
Why no body plays Tezzerete in this build, I find it key, I recognize it +1 mana tan Jace, however it's key, Ive been playing the list with +1 City of traitors and really love this apprach, I mean the hability to play Tezz in 4th turn and helped as well by moxen, the unique reason I would run mox if to play as soon as possible both Tezz or Gifts Ungiven, thats why Im thinking in adding more city of traitors or something like that,

Tezz-> Bridge is an auto win most of the times
Tezz -> Sword and next Thopter --> win with mana open
Tezz-> Nedle --> saves us from complicated situations
I have to say that the c.b approach is in my opinion at least for these archetypes a must
therefore E.Tutor should be a must to,
however the doubt that consumes me is as I find Tezz a Must what should I run to accelerate it and not loosing card advantage, as I said the single City worked well when I drew it, I need a mixture of Tezz, Tutor and c.b and I need it works well

I tested Tezzeret a lot and he was always underwhelming. Just twice I won tutoring stuff with him.
5 Mana for a tutor seems really too much, and you will never go ultimate with him in this build.

(nameless one)
06-24-2010, 02:28 AM
Has this build proven to non-blue aggro decks and prison decks or is this build only good against combo?

I have a set of Counterbalance and SDT, a couple of Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry, and most of its pieces from my Merfolk and Quinn deck. I believe I am only missing Tundras (which I am not planning on aquiring due to price)

I wanna have a new deck to tinker around with but I am not sure if it would fit my meta. My meta has shifted to Aggro and Prison decks (which sucks because it feels like its meta-gamed against Merfolk).

I am also running on a budget. Since I already have most pieces, I'd figure why not spend $20 to complete it.

Unfortunately, because of my stingy budget, I will not be able to run Jace or Elspeth with it (I never had the luck to crack them from my packs).

Would Mishra's Factory be good enough as Thopter alternate win-con? What are other possible win-cons that can deck utilize? I like the idea of Proteus Staff to Emrakul but if you're not able to produce tokens, I think that engine won't work anyways.

Any suggestions?

Tammit67
06-24-2010, 02:33 AM
I currently run factory since I cant seem to get my hands on Jace. You can do some neat things with crucible/factory/foundry. The high basics count helps against prison, and the 4CMC bombs like moat/humility help against aggro, but its not great. Best bets are quick combos or a heavy sideboard. I think this deck is a bit overlooked since it's slow, but is fine in the meta.
You really only need 2 win cons. Any more than that, and you are forced to sacrifice engines or control elements.

pippo84
06-25-2010, 08:12 AM
I saw that quite a few successful "Legacy Thopter Decks" play dark Confidant.

I think that the card is extremely powerful, but since it's the only creature it will die really fast so probably it's not worth in the main. Post side probably people side out most of the removal and it could be a good space..

Thoughts?

nodahero
06-26-2010, 01:17 AM
I don't think his value out weights the loss of 4 slots. Only bringing him in for 1 to 2 games per match seeems iffy... Prolly only 1 cause they will prolly bring in a LITTLE removal if you actually even cast him in game 2...

DragoFireheart
06-26-2010, 08:29 AM
When is this deck going to replace the current Counter-Top deck? It gives Zoo a hard time while crushing most every other matchup. Also, since the combo matchups have now been weakened, how does that alter the main deck for Thopter-Top?


Finally, I don't have enlightened tutor. How should I adjust my deck if I am unable to obtain them?

obituary 95
06-26-2010, 10:57 AM
well after the ban aggro will be every where so it seems like we it might be a good idea to not play jace since he will just die more often , also we might see other combo decks try to fill he void left after the banning so lets go belcher

Tammit67
06-26-2010, 02:12 PM
I'm not quite sure what you are saying there obituary. If you are advocating cutting Jace, I think you are wrong, if the reason is aggro. Jace is a win con and a beast. If you hang him out to dry, he's going to get neutered, but you should lock up the board before casting him. I almost feel this deck is more prison than control, with each play diminishing the outs the opponent can make and still win.

pippo84
06-26-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm not quite sure what you are saying there obituary. If you are advocating cutting Jace, I think you are wrong, if the reason is aggro. Jace is a win con and a beast. If you hang him out to dry, he's going to get neutered, but you should lock up the board before casting him. I almost feel this deck is more prison than control, with each play diminishing the outs the opponent can make and still win.

Cutting Jace? Don't think so, he is a real beast!

How can you say that this is a prison deck and not a control one? What prison elements you play? None.

obituary 95
06-27-2010, 12:49 AM
i have been thinking about playing extirpate in my board so that i can just get rid of spells people sideboard,SO i could just give them a target for pridemage /grip ,/reb and just get rid of them all just a idea for the board

i personally believe it is decent to call this deck a prison deck in the way that we limit what our opponents do and we limit our opponents outs

SpikeyMikey
06-27-2010, 11:12 AM
jace2.0.....try it out people i hear he's pretty good.

Oh no, people on this site are convinced that Jace sucks.

grahf
06-27-2010, 01:25 PM
If you don't have or want to use E Tutors, instead play 3-4 Thopter Foundries so you can draw/filter into them, and 3-4 Stoneforge Mystics to find your Sword of the Meek. Doing so takes the deck in a different but quite possibly still valid direction, much more aggro-control/tempo. I was experimenting with a creature base of Moms, the Mystics, Trinket Mage, and V Clique. Oh and you'd want Jitte and/or SoFI in there so Mystics past the first have something to do, and to make your little guys more of a threat. Playing CounterTop might be more of a liability than an asset in this version.

SMR0079
06-28-2010, 05:34 PM
Quote Originally Posted by SMR0079 View Post
The short answer - you take one step back to get much further ahead.

Classic card advantage (drawing more cards then opponent) is not really necessary in Legacy for the most part because tempo is so important. However, that doesn't mean that card advantage in the broad sense of the word isn't important.

The counterbalance lock itself creates massive card advantage, more then you could ever get from draw spells. When you combine this with silver bullets like Moat/bridge/ ect, and the Thopter combo - Enlightened tutor becomes a great investment. It sets up your both stack control, board control, and your win con, all of which create massive card advantage.

I won a lot of prizes with NO Ctop, but these Tutor based builds are the wave of the future.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33479

Surprised no one's discussed the Countertop deck that took 1st yesterday. As, noted above, I believe Countertop Thopter to be THE build going forward.

I think the sideboard will need to be adjusted to improve the Zoo match. Pridemage and Grip are obviously really good. We 've been going back and fourth between Paths, Firespouts, and Perish in the board. Sitting behind moat is dangerous when they have grip. You have to survive the onslaught and set up thopter sword as soon as possible.

I'm not a fan of Crucible. Oblivion ring has grown on me as it's an answer to an opponents Jace and the Emarukul decks that are in development.

Check the SCG counter top lists that have made top 8 this year. There have been only 5 so far - 2 Natural Order, 2 thopter, and 1 Bant.

Thoughts?

Posted this in the DtB forum.

They really need to move this thread into at least the established deck section, if not just create sub-columns in the DtB section.

I keep going back and fourth on Daze vs Counterspell. When I am playing against an Daze Agrro-Control I want my own Dazes to push through the Countertop lock, otherwise, Counterspell tends to be superior in the deck.


If you don't have or want to use E Tutors, instead play 3-4 Thopter Foundries so you can draw/filter into them, and 3-4 Stoneforge Mystics to find your Sword of the Meek. Doing so takes the deck in a different but quite possibly still valid direction, much more aggro-control/tempo. I was experimenting with a creature base of Moms, the Mystics, Trinket Mage, and V Clique. Oh and you'd want Jitte and/or SoFI in there so Mystics past the first have something to do, and to make your little guys more of a threat. Playing CounterTop might be more of a liability than an asset in this version.

You are correct about upping the Thopter sword count, but running Stoneforge Mystic is not what this control deck wants to do. Instead, I would try a few Thirst for Knowledge to syphon the dead artifacts away, and give you more three drops.

pippo84
06-28-2010, 06:25 PM
Posted this in the DtB forum.

They really need to move this thread into at least the established deck section, if not just create sub-columns in the DtB section.

I keep going back and fourth on Daze vs Counterspell. When I am playing against an Daze Agrro-Control I want my own Dazes to push through the Countertop lock, otherwise, Counterspell tends to be superior in the deck.



You are correct about upping the Thopter sword count, but running Stoneforge Mystic is not what this control deck wants to do. Instead, I would try a few Thirst for Knowledge to syphon the dead artifacts away, and give you more three drops.


Nice post! The link did not work for btw..

I tried Daze again and switched back to Counterspell in a few matches. Games take long, the only reason to have it is to protect a turn 2 Counterbalance. After my testing I find Counterspell a better fit for this deck and the UU requirement is almost never a problem.

I am trying Esper Charm ATM, and it's quite good, but I'm not yet convinced on it. I have to do more tests. The thing I like is that it's versatile and for this reason I prefer it to T4K.

What does your sideboard currently look like?
I have:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
1 Utility Slot that I'm not still sure of.

I would also like to have 2 Trinket Mage main deck, but I don't have space..
Also you may have noted that I have no enchantment hate in the side. That's because of the 3 Esper Charm MD. As for artifact hate.. Well, counters or EE..

Also, what colors are you currently running?

SMR0079
06-28-2010, 11:03 PM
Nice post! The link did not work for btw..

I tried Daze again and switched back to Counterspell in a few matches. Games take long, the only reason to have it is to protect a turn 2 Counterbalance. After my testing I find Counterspell a better fit for this deck and the UU requirement is almost never a problem.

I am trying Esper Charm ATM, and it's quite good, but I'm not yet convinced on it. I have to do more tests. The thing I like is that it's versatile and for this reason I prefer it to T4K.

What does your sideboard currently look like?
I have:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
1 Utility Slot that I'm not still sure of.

I would also like to have 2 Trinket Mage main deck, but I don't have space..
Also you may have noted that I have no enchantment hate in the side. That's because of the 3 Esper Charm MD. As for artifact hate.. Well, counters or EE..

Also, what colors are you currently running?

Honestly, the main deck that took first is nearly optimal.

I would not run Esper Charm or TFK. The latter is to slow and the former is "cute" but not optimal. I run an Ensnaring Bridge instead of Crucible. Crucible is just so underwhelming against decks that are not gunning for your land, and I want to diminish the dead cards main deck. I'm also back to Counterspell. 4 Tutors make Trinketmage unnecessary.

I splash red (or black) and green in my sidebaord. Aside from the counter set up the toughest decisions have been what anti-aggro package to run in the board. For now I'm running firespout, but you can make an argument for any of the three. Path let's you stay U/W which can be vital against Folk, Gobbos, and New Horizons, but you don't get any 2 for 1s.

2Grip
3 Firespout (or Perish)(or Path)
Explosives
Tsabo's Web
CoP Red
Humility
Wheel
Crypt
Relic
Canonist
Runed Halo

Aggro_zombies
06-28-2010, 11:30 PM
Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.

DragoFireheart
06-28-2010, 11:52 PM
Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.


Probably humility to ensure that you slow down zoos clock while also stopping their pridemages.

SMR0079
06-29-2010, 12:27 AM
Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I ask because I own Humilities but can't really afford to buy Moats. I realize that Moat is better under Counterbalance because then the opponent can't force through Pridemage, which makes the "ability removal" aspect of Humility less important. However, I appreciate Humility's ability to deal with random utility creatures and fliers, and making guys into 1/1s slows down a lot of decks. Zoo's clock is a lot less impressive when it only has three or four 1/1 dorks in play, and it also seems better against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in games 2 and 3 when you'd expect them to have some way to get rid of it (although Moat seems much better g1 against both of those). Humility also turns Firespout into a true Wrath, although I'm not sure how much that matters.

Basically, it seems that Humility vs. Moat boils down to, "Am I looking for a continuous Fog to keep myself alive until I set up Foundry, or am I looking for a way to stop troublesome utility creatures?" Put that way, it seems entirely meta-dependent, but I was wondering if one was generally better than the other.

Humility is a fine substitute to Moat, and better in certain circumstances, shutting off Pridemage in particular. The only problem is that even with Humility out, the damage can mount fairly quickly. I run Bridge and Moat maindeck, Humility in the board. The one less mana for Bridge has been very useful with Enlightened Tutor. Since I have found room for the Bridge, there's really no reason you can't run Humility and Moat if you have them, Otherwise Humility with some additional removal would be good.

lordofthepit
06-29-2010, 02:15 AM
Quick question: what are people's thoughts on Humility versus Moat?

I'm in the same situation as you, where I can put the rest of the deck together but don't want to shell out for a Moat.

Obviously, Humility and Moat have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their relative advantages depend heavily on the decks you expect to face. My opinion is that Humility is a stronger card overall than Moat (to the point that I wouldn't actually want Moat in my Landstill or Quinn decks), but that I'd probably prefer the latter in CounterThopter with an Enlightened Tutor package because it plays better with other commonly played artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge or Vedalken Shackles.

The problem with Humility is finding a way to prevent yourself from getting beaten by a swarm of 1/1s. In Landstill, that can often be managed by the likes of Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice, but that's not really a practical solution for CounterThopter. You can also use jank like Orim's Prayer, Caltrops, or Thunderstaff to shut off those weenies, but no self-respecting player would ever include such narrow solutions. My inclination at this point, if I were to play Humility in CounterThopter, is to include more Swords of the Meek/Thopter Foundry to try to "combo out" faster.

Disclaimer: take my opinion with a few kilos of salt because I've never tried it out in a competitive setting.

jazzykat
06-29-2010, 03:31 AM
From what this deck list looks like, I can see moat being a little better except in a lot of corner cases. I think that Humility is a lot more of a known quantity i.e. you take damage but not as much, and you can block all of their creatures with anything (including a manland) where Moat is better in normal cases but you are still in trouble from a Tombstalker, Clique or Predator.

pippo84
06-29-2010, 07:05 AM
From what this deck list looks like, I can see moat being a little better except in a lot of corner cases. I think that Humility is a lot more of a known quantity i.e. you take damage but not as much, and you can block all of their creatures with anything (including a manland) where Moat is better in normal cases but you are still in trouble from a Tombstalker, Clique or Predator.

Humility is better against Qasali Pridemage, Faeries and Reanimator, Moat is better against Merfolk, Goblins and New Horizons.
It really depends on what meta you are expecting.

Actually I don't understand why he played 1 Crucible of Worlds, he did not play Wastelands or Manlands, so I think that having another free slot is better.

How is managing 4 colors? I prefer playing just 3 to have a more stable manabase..

Bardo
06-29-2010, 09:39 AM
Moved to Established.

pippo84
06-29-2010, 10:26 AM
Moved to Established.

Cheers! :laugh: Well done, maybe now we will have some more input! :cool:

BantFTW
06-29-2010, 10:40 AM
But if you don't win with the thopter combo?
How do you win then :O:O?

And humilty is quit better I would say^^

pippo84
06-29-2010, 10:52 AM
But if you don't win with the thopter combo?
How do you win then :O:O?

And humilty is quit better I would say^^

Can you give reasons to why Humility is better than Moat? Everyone before you commented the choice..

Anusien
06-29-2010, 11:28 AM
Humility is significantly better against Reanimator's stuff if we still care and Emrakul if that's a real deck. It's better against Pridemage and such, and worse against everything else. Personally I think Humility is better, but I don't think the difference is that significant.

Maveric78f
06-29-2010, 11:34 AM
Moat is better to protect Planeswalkers.
Humility is better when you play manlands.
Moat is better to save your butt for 2 or 3 turns.
Humility is better to lock the opponent on a biggest scale.

SpikeyMikey
06-29-2010, 01:26 PM
Perhaps I'm the only one, but after having played a UW control version of Thopter, I found that I had serious trouble with Goblins. Simply, by the time I could assemble the combo or drop Humility, I was too far behind the curve to pull it out. Even bad Goblins versions were smacking me around. I tried finding board hate. Peacekeeper struck me as being useful, as they would probably board out Incinerators against a creatureless deck and it came down faster than Moat. But that still left me losing badly in game 1 and less than 50/50 post board.

So I've switched to a more aggressive 4 color aggro version with Bob's and Goyfs and Knights. I don't blank my opponents creature removal anymore and my Lands M/U has gotten worse, since I don't have B2B anymore, but I've become much harder to board against, since I'm packing so many routes to victory (beats, thopter and Jace). I'm not as susceptible to Faerie Macabre or Krosan Grip and my aggro M/U has improved a great deal, especially with War Monks out of the board.

Has anyone else been dissatisfied with the full on control route?

Rico Suave
06-29-2010, 02:26 PM
Perhaps I'm the only one, but after having played a UW control version of Thopter, I found that I had serious trouble with Goblins. Simply, by the time I could assemble the combo or drop Humility, I was too far behind the curve to pull it out. Even bad Goblins versions were smacking me around. I tried finding board hate. Peacekeeper struck me as being useful, as they would probably board out Incinerators against a creatureless deck and it came down faster than Moat. But that still left me losing badly in game 1 and less than 50/50 post board.

If you want to beat Goblins, play Moat. There's no real substitute despite its pricetag, unfortunately. Same goes true for Merfolk, which is cold to Moat but still hits for 3-4 even with Humility down.

SMR0079
06-29-2010, 03:08 PM
If you want to beat Goblins, play Moat. There's no real substitute despite its pricetag, unfortunately. Same goes true for Merfolk, which is cold to Moat but still hits for 3-4 even with Humility down.

Moat shuts down Gobos, but Folk has the commandeer now.

I play both at the moment with Humility in the Board. If I could only run humility I would probably pack Firespout main deck

4 stP
3 Firespout
1 Humility
1 Explosives
1 Needle
1 Crypt

12 Draw/11 Counter/5 Win/21 land

That actually seems really good...


In regards to the 4th color - I only have it for Krosan Grip, which is primarily for the mirror. You seldom have a match where you need both red and green, so it hasn't been much of an issue.

SpikeyMikey
06-29-2010, 03:58 PM
Money is no object; I only play on MWS. I used to have a Moat. Actually, two Moats and an Il Fossato :)

The thing is 4 mana has been too slow for me, especially if I'm forced to Daze a turn 1 Lackey or on the draw. I guess if it works for everyone else, it's definitely good against Fish if you can get it down. Stops that pesky Islandwalking.

Tammit67
06-29-2010, 04:39 PM
Cutting Jace? Don't think so, he is a real beast!

How can you say that this is a prison deck and not a control one? What prison elements you play? None.

I agree with you, Jace is necessary in this deck. We are on the same page.

What prison elements do we play? Um... Moat/humility, Cbtop, recurring EE. It's not prizon in the sense the opponent can't do anything, but more in the sense what they do has zero consequence. We blank creatures almost entirely, dealing with other threats with EE or needle. That is only if they can find a way through Cbtop with tutor targets off of enlightened. When you hit the combo, you basically lock them out of the game. If you stabilize and set up, the rest of the game feels like a formality. That's all.

And hurray for established

DragoFireheart
06-29-2010, 04:57 PM
Moved to Established.


Next step: DTB.


Enchantress decks are going to be more popular since they do well against Zoo. How does this deck handle them?

Rico Suave
06-29-2010, 04:58 PM
Actually, two Moats and an Il Fossato :)

The thing is 4 mana has been too slow for me, especially if I'm forced to Daze a turn 1 Lackey or on the draw. I guess if it works for everyone else, it's definitely good against Fish if you can get it down. Stops that pesky Islandwalking.

Fossato!

You don't need to Daze a turn 1 Lackey, especially if you run Moat. If you are in a position to Daze a turn 1 Lackey, it means you're on the play and will get to 4 mana before Goblins can kill you.

In fact, I would recommend not playing Daze at all.


Moat shuts down Gobos, but Folk has the commandeer now.

Yea, but you can StP that badboy. Humility + StP is poor.

Aggro_zombies
06-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Next step: DTB.


Enchantress decks are going to be more popular since they do well against Zoo. How does this deck handle them?
Counterbalance, plus countering the Enchantress effects.

The opponent can still draw a card from casting an enchantment, even if it's countered, but a draw engine doesn't do him a lot of good if you can lock him out of his 1 and 2cc bracket. You should also have some number of Disenchant effects in your board to deal with Needle/Null Rod, and an Aura of Silence or two is a great way to grind Enchantress to a halt. Jace is also a decent way to end the game if your Thopters get neutralized.

Basically, you don't need to worry about sweeping Enchantress - you just need to stop them from drawing too many cards and locking you out of your graveyard with Wheel of Sun and Moon.

sauce
06-29-2010, 05:48 PM
I prefer Moat main and SB Humility vs decks that have creatures w/ abilities.
Also, if you run Humility, you should run Elspeth.

Tammit67
06-30-2010, 01:34 AM
Any thoughts on an energy field main?

Aggro_zombies
06-30-2010, 01:52 AM
Any thoughts on an energy field main?
It seems awful beyond words. It basically requires you to not do anything for a few turns and pray the other guy doesn't draw Qasali Pridemage.

lordofthepit
06-30-2010, 02:00 AM
It seems awful beyond words. It basically requires you to not do anything for a few turns and pray the other guy doesn't draw Qasali Pridemage.

Would make a hilarious janky combo with Wheel of Sun and Moon though. :laugh:

Tammit67
06-30-2010, 02:02 AM
Yeah, I feel like an idiot posting that. Most of the time wasteland answers it just fine, or p mage. I really should just get to sleep before I embarrass myself more

mchainmail
06-30-2010, 02:11 AM
It seems awful beyond words. It basically requires you to not do anything for a few turns and pray the other guy doesn't draw Qasali Pridemage.

"Bad versus Pridemage" seems like a great standard to use when evaluating cards.

Let's look at what it stops you from doing first:

Casting:
Enlightened Tutor
Counterspells
Brainstorm
Swords
Activating Fetchlands

So it shuts off around a third of your deck.

Let's look at what it does:
In game 1:
Stops Goblins, Merfolk. With Pithing Needle on Pridemage, Zoo.
Does not stop: Emrakul / Annihilator Eldrazi

It also gets removed if one of your spells gets countered.


When would we want Energy Field? I think it's a card that can be cast on turn 2, to set up a turn 4 moat / humility in the aggro matchups. It demands an answer, and if the aggro player spends an entire turn answering it, We're in good shape. Also, it absorbs a Pridemage for Moat.

I think the card merits testing in aggro matchups. However, we need to pay attention to how many REBs are in the meta; if Zoo and Goblins board them more often, Energy Field becomes worse.

lordofthepit
06-30-2010, 03:42 AM
So it shuts off around a third of your deck.

Let's look at what it does:
In game 1:
Stops Goblins, Merfolk. With Pithing Needle on Pridemage, Zoo.
Does not stop: Emrakul / Annihilator Eldrazi

I think it would be inaccurate to say it stops Goblins or Merfolk because they can easily just Wasteland one of your fetchlands (or other nonbasics). Unfortunately, this is also an extremely common scenario against those decks. Granted, it still can buy you a turn or two, but there are many cards that can do that, some of which are deemed unplayable. Moreover, against Merfolk, it shuts off more than just half your deck, because you'd risk running your permanents into a counterspell everytime you cast one. There's also a slight chance that you're not able to draw two more basics or "live cards" before you're able to build up to enough mana to cast Moat; it might not be very likely, but the combination of all these limitations is enough to weaken Energy Field.

Unfortunately, there's only one situation in which you'd really want to tutor for an early Energy Field. It's exactly as you described, against decks with which you can win by dropping Moat, but for which Energy Field would be useful for buying you a few turns without damage. However, I think that's narrow, since Moat only realistically "wins" against Merfolk, Goblins, and Dredge (and they certainly have outs). Something like Ghostly Prison or Ensnaring Bridge would probably do the same with fewer restrictions; although they certainly don't "lock out" the opponent, I doubt Energy Field will either in a real match.

pippo84
06-30-2010, 06:05 AM
This deck against enchantress:

You must counter the relevant stuff, they usually run 3 win conditions and they must not pass. Another spell that must be countered is Replenish. If it passes they will win. Board in some GY hate anyways.

The best way to win is a fast CB+Top and counter the relevant stuff. Find a :3: CC drop and leave it on top.
A few days ago I played against a friend of mine with enchantress. Long game. The only permanents I cast in the whole game were 1 Sensei's Divining Top and 1 Counterbalance. Unfortunately I did not see many lands so I had to keep open to counter his relevant stuff. I just countered almost anything, leaving some spells pass and won by decking my opponent!! :tongue:
Well, it was a strange game.

How do you find this deck against Landstill? I think that pre-board we are favoured, but after it's in their favour.

And how about Aggro-Loam? I played against a friend of mine pre and post board and just got hosed many times! Chalice at 1 is really terrible!!

lolosoon
06-30-2010, 06:43 AM
How do you find this deck against Landstill? I think that pre-board we are favoured, but after it's in their favour.
A stable Manabase of 4 Islands//2 Plains + B2B from SB would help for sure...

Misplayer
06-30-2010, 12:13 PM
So with the anticipated decline of combo, how much better would this deck be in a Landstill shell rather than a CounterTop shell?