[Deck] The Gate [Archive]

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Michael Keller

03-16-2010, 12:46 AM

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T H E + G A T E
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Preview and Background

After a few months of evaluating the format and tinkering with ideas, I sat back and decided I wanted to try something new. I noticed the format was following a disturbing (but typical) trend with decks consistently...time and time again... showing up in large numbers and subsequently placing in large events. In noticing this, I began outlining a new project with the goal in being able to compete, defeat, and place within these decks on a consistent basis. I needed a good starting point, so I decided to compile a list of cards in a singular colored deck that can create massive amounts of card advantage without having to overextend your resources.

The hardest part was deciding what color(s) to play. Right off the bat, I really thought that black had so many good, underused things going for it. People just overlook it as being a crutch-color for decks that need combo protection or acceleration and really nothing more. I went back into the archives and decided that an "anti-establishment" approach to building this deck was the way to go with the vast amount of similar decks plaguing the format today. In doing so, I settled on black as a solitary color to begin the foundation of what would become a very efficient and consistent deck that steers away from stereotypical mono-colored builds and goes in a completely bold, new direction.

Unquestionably, the deck generates card advantage and allows a clear opportunity to play unmatched threats while stockpiling cards, life, and creatures. By doing so, it becomes very difficult for an opponent to match this level of consistency when you repeatedly have answers for everything they try. By conducting this strategy, the deck opens itself up for so much more flexibility. Each card in the deck serves an important purpose.

With that being said, I present to you "The Gate".

Creatures

After several drafts, the list I ultimately decided on proved to be most effective in testing and worked very smoothly. Here is a list of the creatures I run for reference:

Abyssal Persecutor.
Dark Confidant.
Gatekeeper of Malakir.
Vampire Nighthawk.
Faerie Macabre.

As you can see, this suite of creatures presents serious trouble for opponents not necessarily because of what they do during the attack step, but what they accomplish on their own merit. Let's take a closer look at what each does and why it is important to include them in the main deck list:

Abyssal Persecutor
This creature had an awful lot of hype in its recent release. For four mana, at the cost of two colorless and two black, we get a 6/6 flying trampler. Seems good. Seems really good. Unfortunately, people look upon the extra text in the card as a turn off:

You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.

Okay, so, I beat an opponent until they're at negative twenty and they live? Well, what if I can kill it myself? There are so many dual-purpose ways of doing this it is no problem at all. This can put your opponent on a serious clock and places them in the precarious situation of having to stop you from killing your own creature, which is an extraordinarily difficult task with the other cards the deck uses. A devastating beater.

Dark Confidant
There isn't much that can be said about this creature except for the fact that he is one of the best creatures ever printed. He stagnantly places cards into your hand for the price of their cost while being able to beat. The very definition of card advantage. People have a tendency to write this creature off because of its fragile toughness value or immediate board presence by suggesting it will be removed immediately, effectively never seeing the light of its fruition. You'd be surprised how often this creature lives and goes active. And, if he does, he has already served his purpose by netting you an additional card and providing a body for which to either attack or block with.

Gatekeeper of Malakir
With the amount of powerful creatures in the format today, it's no wonder how good removal can really be. Especially when it is built into a creature, as a sacrifice, and even being able to target yourself killing a Dark Confidant to save life or kick Persecutor for the win. This is one of the best cards in the deck and for good reason: He generates card advantage and can attack. His sacrificial kicker can knock out Progenitus as well (assuming they had a green creature that lived). The same for Inkwell Leviathan and Nimble Mongoose.

Vampire Nighthawk
Gaining life is a very underrated ability in the format right now with Zoo variants all over the place. With cards like Confidant and Bitterblossom, gaining life never felt so good. It also has flying and deathtouch, an ability that lets it destroy anything it comes into contact with. This is good against anything and with Jitte is utterly devastating. A truly effective card that gives you everything you could ask for.

Faerie Macabre
People are starting to see why this is such a good creature to run, even in their main builds. It comes out of nowhere and is absolutely ridiculous against decks predicated on a more intentional use of the graveyard. One of the main reasons for its inclusion in the main build has to do with its uncounterable ability and added bonus of being a body to equip and attack with. It completely stuns the unknowing and hits so many decks unknowingly right off the bat so very hard that they simply cannot recover in time. At worst, he's a 2/2 flyer for three mana. Highly abusable and underused.

Key Spells

Duress.
Cabal Therapy.
Deathmark.
Innocent Blood.
Wasteland.

Let's take a further look now at the key spells in the deck and see how they function in setting up a systematic board dominance process:

Duress
Some questions arose as to why this card was selected over Thoughtseize. The reason is quite simple, really: The loss of life becomes cumulative over time with Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant and with the removal the deck plays creatures are absolutely never an issue. Duress is just as effective in eliminating early specialty counters like Daze and draw spells like Brainstorm. This can be crippling in some instances and on the play Duress is that much better. You essentially set your opponent up into going more aggressive after eliminating their defenses and let them walk right into your trap of destroying their creatures and beating in hard for the win.

Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy is just so good with Bitterblossom and Abyssal Persecutor. Following up a Duress, it is so absolutely savage if left resolved. On the play game one, it's never a bad idea to Therapy and name some moderately troublesome cards like Aether Vial or Daze, although both don't necessarily do anything to affect your primary goal which is to knock off their creatures with your own removal and cards like Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, etc. Therapy also gives you another way of nixing Bridge from Below if need be. Very multilateral.

Deathmark
In the main, really? As of right now, the format is absolutely drenched in ridiculously overpowered green and white creatures. Here are some of the most prolific, to name a "few":

Tarmogoyf.
Qasali Pridemage.
Rhox War Monk.
Noble Hierarch.
Meddling Mage.
Knight of the Reliquary.
Wild Nacatl.
Steppe Lynx.
Terravore.
Dryad Arbor.
Birds of Paradise.
Gaddock Teeg.
Jotun Grunt.
Trygon Predator.
Birds of Paradise.
Quirion Ranger.
Scryb Ranger.
Figure of Destiny.
Tireless Tribe.
Blazing Archon.
Llanowar Elves.
Priest of Titania.
Magus of the Tabernacle.
Fauna Shaman.
Vengevine.
Eternal Witness.
Kitchen Finks.
Mother of Runes.
Serra Avenger.
Weathered Wayfarer.
Flickerwisp.
Stoneforge Mystic.
Soldier Tokens.
Angel Tokens.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Mangara of Corondor.

That list is loaded with some of (if not ALL of) the best creatures in Legacy. Deathmark is an outstanding choice in today's Legacy meta and is a more than fine call to run main. In fact, it is excellent. It is a simple yet effective removal spell that for its cost is an absolute bargain.

Innocent Blood
A very efficient one mana removal spell that forces an opponent to sacrifice a creature. Works wonders with Bitterblossom and allows you to sustain the first few turns with no threats facing you down. Knocks off "untargetable" creatures like Progenitus and Inkwell, too.

Wasteland
I consider Wasteland an actual spell in the deck, as that is ultimately its sole purpose. With seventeen Swamps, four Wasteland are a fine compliment to cripple an opponents' mana supply at any point in the game while banking removal and playing threats. Very effective.

Artifacts and Enchantments

Bitterblossom.
Umezawa's Jitte.

Bitterblossom
Just maybe the heart and soul of the deck. It is just so annoying to deal with. You just continue to stockpile Faeries every turn and just beat an opponent down. With Jitte, it is purely sensational. The best thing about it is, as these tokens fly they are much harder to stop and therefore make Jitte ridiculously good.

Umezawa's Jitte
What makes the world go around. Being able to gain life, pump creatures, and kill creatures all for dealing combat damage is just so good.With Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant, it's almost an auto-include. It has won me big games and close games, and it just lets you draw cards with Bob and makes Faeries with Blossom.

The List

The Gate (as of 15SEPT10):

[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk

[4x] Duress
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Deathmark
[3x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Hymn to Tourach

[3x] Umezawa's Jitte
[3x] Bitterblossom

[17x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

//Sideboard

[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Extirpate
[3x] Dystopia
[3x] Thorn of Amethyst

How the Deck Plays

The deck essentially runs like aggro-control. You dictate the board state with removal and remove key spells with Duress and Cabal Therapy. Your opponent will be hard-pressed to match your intensity with the amount of removal you run. But again, it is all about card advantage and situational Magic. This application of thought is what made the deck work to begin with. You build cards with Bob, build creatures with Bitterblossom, two for one with Gatekeeper and Faerie, or beat down to hell with Persecutor and Nighthawk.

The deck is so versatile and has such a good match against many of the formats' decks to beat. It has answers to almost everything while not depleting itself out, and that's the key. You get the biggest bang for your buck and maximize the potential of each card you play. This throws an opponent for a loop because you are systematically wiping out threat after threat while actually building threats of your own. It's a fun thing to do and it is quite effective. Remember, in Legacy the game can be decided as early as turn two or three. If you can sustain these turns by gaining a clear advantage at hand and board, then you allow yourself a great chance to win. This is a philosophy for which this deck predicates itself upon: To generate card advantage early enough in the game without trading tempo for consistency at an alarming rate.

By playing basic lands, you are also just completely nullifying an opponents' Waste or Moon strategy. This again is a fantastic situation as you render cards like the following useless:

Price of Progress.
Wasteland.
Magus/Blood Moon.

Again, cards like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom are stagnant builders that enable you to generate advantage at the cost of life. This is offset by Jitte and Nighthawk and provides a synergistic approach in how the game plays out for you. It'll almost make you feel like the Predator up in a tree counting Goyf skulls as trophies. Hard to argue with consistency.

Against decks like Merfolk and Goblins, depending on if you're on the play, you can knock out key cards with Duress and go into removal mode from there. The trick is to nullify their early counter-magic and force them to just drop a creature and say go. You have enough firepower to match forces, as there is no Island-walking going on.

Sideboards

As of right now, I am testing several different sideboards and seeing how they work. Here are a few for reference:

//Sideboard [1]

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Soul Spike
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow

As you can see, this sideboard is predicated largely on focusing on gaining life and maintaining a solid grip on the Zoo match-up, while focusing a little bit on the combo match with Faerie Macabre and Soul Spike, respectively.

//Sideboard [2]

[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sadistic Sacrament
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Pithing Needle
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

This sideboard I've been testing focuses more on the control match by adding in another Hymn to Tourach and a pair of Needles. Sadistic Sacrament is there in an attempt to cripple slower combo decks (like Sneak Attack) and even Survival of the Fittest. Dystopia more often than not does the trick against Survival, but Eternal Witness at times can be a pain.

//Sideboard [3]

[4x] Soul Spike
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

I've looked at this sideboard as being more stringent and cut and dry towards specific match-ups against decks using the graveyard as a primary catalyst, while "gunning for blood" against Storm combo by adding a full set of Soul Spike in addition to Hymn to Tourach.

As far as which sideboard I currently play, I have been running the first one since moving Faerie Macabre to the sideboard and freeing up space in the main build. It seems to be nicely balanced and rounded out. The second one, however, has some great appeal to me. I am interested in further testing the control match and seeing how that goes. Sadistic Sacrament (believe it or not) is actually really good against control. You're able to remove up to three copies of Jace, Standstill, etc., while crippling a specific function of their deck simultaneously.

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The Gate
Match Analysis============================================

Zoo

One of the most prolific and consistent decks in the format. The Gate's match-up against "Zoo" is quite solid. Game One is predicated largely on removal from both sides. By generating card advantage by knocking off our opponent's creatures with cards like Gatekeeper of Malakir, we will be able to at the very least limit their activity on the board by diminishing threats. Cards like Deathmark and Innocent Blood become so incredibly relevant, it is hard to dispute their productivity. With a large portion of The Gate dedicated to removal and generating card advantage, we have an excellent chance at blowing them out by systematically disrupting their clock and subsequently creating one of our own.

The switch can be flipped, however; Zoo has the explosive capability of dishing out as much as it can take in. And in the case of the first game, it really can become a toss-up depending on how we draw against them and what they draw against us.

Life gain is a huge asset in the second and third games. Cards like Spinning Darkness and Sword of Light and Shadow help supplement our life-gaining capability with cards like Vampire Nighthawk and Umezawa's Jitte. Dystopia is another huge problem for them as long as Pridemage doesn't stick (and usually doesn't). There are so many different ways of killing creatures and gaining life that it becomes harder for the Zoo player to keep up at times. Gaining life each turn is key, and with copious amounts of removal, we have little to worry about until we crush their hands and force them to top-deck better than us whenever we generate card advantage in some capacity. Persecutor is a beating, too.

As long as we can knock off early threats and cripple their board, we have an excellent chance to pull either of these games out. The Gate is a removal-heavy deck, and there's no question it gets more ruthless post-board. Personally, I do not underestimate Zoo's capability to fight through hell and still win.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).

Reanimator

Reanimator appears to be a complex, yet favorable match. Taking a look at the different types of creatures it runs, namely creatures with “Shroud”, The Gate really doesn’t have too much of a problem dealing with these threats due to the copious amount of sacrificial, un-targeted removal the deck plays. When you are able to answer each of the deck’s threats one at a time, the game typically tends to swing in your favor over the course of a few turns. At this point, Reanimator tends to deplete its resources faster than one would normally think in an effort to stick a large threat.

The first game should generally favor The Gate due to a solid discard and removal suite - pending a (potentially) serious reactive opening start with the right tools by Reanimator. Otherwise, The Gate typically takes this match more often than it does not. Reanimator mulligans very aggressively and this opens them up to painful discard effects that can be staggering, to say the least.

Games two and three are a little more of the same, as the main build already has a foundation woven on dealing with slower combo decks more reliant on larger creatures. Depending on the type of choices the Reanimator player is featuring, you can play it a little slower or more aggressive (without giving too much leeway). Bringing in cards like Faerie Macabre and or Extirpate give you shots at taking out their targets, and perhaps even giving you a creature when all is said and done (post-Exhume).

Reanimator has always had difficulty dealing with blatant discard knocking out key spells in hand and leaving the player pinned with large creatures in hand and nothing more. The difference here is that Reanimator has a strong defensive package that can match your discard or invite it (depending on what they have in hand). This is where (inadvertently) Duress is better than Thoughtseize; you do not have to select a creature in their hand and giving them the benefit of a solid top-deck bringing it back. Make Iona irrelevant, and the match is ours.

Any way you slice it, this match got a lot easier now that Mystical Tutor is history.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).

Merfolk

I’ve found Merfolk to be a rather annoying match on the draw. Having to deal with Daze and Aether Vial can be a pain, but it certainly isn’t a bad thing. The Gate picks up some tempo by forcing an opponent to return an Island back to their hand. Discard on the play is just utterly devastating; it completely changes the course of the game in that they must now play lands and hard-cast creatures each turn. This is a very favorable situation as it allows the deck to setup its threats by using removal and establishing an overpowering board position. It can be extraordinarily hard for the Merfolk player to gain any sort of creature-based advantage once their threats are dealt with and they go into top-deck mode.

I’ve noticed some problems in this match with Deathmark in that it is hit or miss. If they are running a splash of green for Tarmogoyf, then Deathmark obviously isn’t all together dead. This also opens them up for more Waste-hate, in addition to hitting their man-lands. Standstill can be rather annoying, but now that Hymn to Tourach has made its way back into the main, Standstill becomes a little less relevant at certain times.

Games two and three are interesting. Spinning Darkness finds its way in to nail creatures that have been pumped up from “Lord” effects. This is actually quite easy with the number of cards hitting the graveyard each and every turn. The trick is focusing on removing (or trading) as many threats as possible while getting ready for an all-out assault with Abyssal Persecutors, equipped creatures, or whatever else you may have readily available for an alpha-strike. Sword of Light and Shadow (or Fire and Ice, depending on which you prefer) can help recur your threats or destroy theirs while netting you card advantage at the same time.

Islandwalk here also doesn’t matter, so the Merfolk player sneaking in with unblocked attackers (aside from miscellaneous activated abilities from other Merfolk) is never an issue.

What it all boils down to in this match is Aether Vial versus discard; whoever wins the die-roll gets a serious advantage - depending on the opening hands of both players. The Gate runs removal; they run sneaky counter-magic. It really does come down to a coin-flip and that’s a testament to the strength of Merfolk’s resolve by churning out threat after threat, much like Goblins.

OVERALL: EVEN (50/50).

Goblins

Goblins are a little more difficult to deal with in game one on the draw. If The Gate player can open hand Innocent Blood for Lackey, then they have a great chance at stalling them out and battling in a war of attrition. It can be relatively difficult because players can replenish their hands using cards like Goblin Matron or chaining Goblin Ringleaders. While those cards are certainly the worst cards for The Gate, it also maintains a variety of cards which two for one and allow it to slow down any impending threats. Believe it or not, Hymn to Tourach is actually a key spell in this match because it can downsize their hand for a potential serious assault the following turn. Game one is essentially about who plays first and how strong their opening hand is.

If you land some threats and offset theirs with removal, you’ll be just fine the first game.

Games two and three are still kind of hard to evaluate, because no matter what happens with the supplementary cards that come in from the sideboard, it still comes down to a dogfight between armies. Whoever goes first in the second game could have a slight edge nailing down the first land and either dropping that Lackey or Vial without having an answer turn one. On the flip-side, if The Gate plays first, the door is opened for the very real possibility of crippling their hand with a Hymn or discard spell before they can drop anything relevant.

Sword of Fire and Ice, Spinning Darkness, Jitte, and removal also help the cause here. If you continue nailing threat after threat, you have a golden opportunity to establish board position and capitalize on their lack of productivity. Continue to stay aggressive and use your powerful creatures like Persecutor and Nighthawk to bury them.

OVERALL: EVEN (50/50).

Counter-Top Bant

This is not a desirable match, but not lost by any means. This is where Deathmark truly shines. Bant has difficulty in getting going in the mid to late stages of the game as they continue to search desperately for creatures. In the first three turns, it is highly unlikely that any opposing creatures will stick because of the large amounts of removal The Gate plays. The sacrificial removal also allows for the death of Progenitus and effectively becomes a three for one in the sense they lose: A creature, the Natural Order, and the Progenitus – potentially due to a one mana removal spell. Deathmark gets really good in this match, as essentially all of their threats are either: Green, white, or a combination of both.

Dealing with Counterbalance is something I’ve had to face head on Game One and with a great deal of success. If we can Duress, Therapy, or Hymn it out of their hand, we’re going to be all right. The trick is stopping Sensei’s Divining Top. Even if the opponent still has Top out, they will be forced to use essential mana to search for answers. Forcing the opponent to play reactively is what we want to do, we just need to land as many threats down as possible and attempt to cripple their mana base (with Wasteland and nixing Hierarch) so they cannot play anything. Bant has a very fragile mana base, so hitting those early and hard can alone win us the game. Hymn to Tourach is also a thrashing in this match.

Games two and three are a little better because of Dystopia and Sword (L/S or F/I). Pridemage rarely sticks with the obscene amount of removal, and if it does, it will have to be used immediately with these cards on the table. These are good supplements to an already punishing suite of creatures generating card advantage. Dystopia is very effective in this match, as it allows us to save removal for other potential candidates. As long as Counter-Top is not online, then we have a great opportunity to win the match as that is (really) all they can play that genuinely becomes immediately relevant.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).

Ichorid

This is the match that is generally difficult to assess due in large part to the skill of the Ichorid player. It is very difficult for an Ichorid player to recover from an early Faerie Macabre (depending if you run them main still or not; it is considered a meta choice). In fact, it is essentially game-breaking. Cards like Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy are capable of helping eliminate Bridge from Below, as are the other removal spells in the deck.

One combination that truly shines in this match is Bitterblossom with Umezawa’s Jitte. If this goes online, the game will be over. Being on the play helps to Duress out cards like Breakthrough and Careful Study. Also, stopping Iona as a Dread return target is important. Creating a clock for the Ichorid player is huge, and establishing board dominance is crucial.

In the second and third games, we bring in Extirpate or more Faerie Macabre, which is obviously a big help. It can basically go down to a war of attrition, but the trick is to mulligan appropriately in the second and third games to hit a good hand capable of crippling them early. If we can do that, we’ll be okay. Ichorid has about as good a top-deck as we do, so with more relevant hate in game one and more so subsequently in games two and three, we have a distinct edge here that should and has played out in our favor.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY FAVORABLE (55/45).

Storm Combo

Not exactly the best match in the whole world for The Gate. I’ll be the first to admit that the deck had a dire chance of pulling off a game one upset. That has changed some since the inclusion of Hymn to Tourach in the main. If we can slow them down enough where we can land Persecutor and other threats and whittle their life and hand down enough where they can no longer use Ad Nauseam, we can get it done. If they try the Ill- Gotten Gains loop, we do have Faerie Macabre to stun them. If we go on the play and open with a solid discard suite, we can also have a legitimate shot. Otherwise, it’s lights out for The Gate.

Games two and three get a little more interesting, albeit still a little painful. Now that we are aware of what they are playing, the mulligan prospect becomes unbelievably critical in finding the right set of cards to work with. Board hate can include Sadistic Sacrament to supplement discard, and it at the very least can give us an out to cripple their win conditions. Soul Spike is another cute trick that has won rounds of sanctioned tournament play. By surprising the unknowing and (potentially) killing them post-Nauseam, we give ourselves at least another out against a card we have no business responding to. It is very effective when it lands, and is completely unexpected.

It’s not exactly the best match, but with more effective discard and Spike to help against Ad Nauseam, we at the very least have a fighting chance. The loss of Mystical Tutor gives us some confidence to force them to work harder finding Ad Nauseam. The real war is stopping Empty the Warrens, which is still a work in progress.

OVERALL: VERY UNFAVORABLE (35/65).

Death and Taxes

This is a match we really enjoy because of the vast number of white creatures we can nail. Even Mother of Runes cannot protect her friends from the sacrificial removal imposed on them. Deathmark is again outstanding and hits everything they have. Stoneforge Mystic is not really a problem, because we run discard to hit the equipment they find or just him in general. Either way, it’s a win-win for us. If we can cripple their threats early and punish their hand, there is little chance they can come back.

Jitte itself is also a removal spell - if need be.

The Gate top-decks much better than this deck with the amount of two for ones the deck possesses. The trick is stopping Mother of Runes from becoming too much of a problem which she rarely is because she never survives. Keep the threats off the board like the deck is supposed to and the match will be greatly in our favor as the game draws out.

After boarding in Spinning Darkness, Dystopia, and Sword (L/S or F/I), there is no reason to believe anything will remain on the table the first five to six turns that is relevant. These cards will assist the already punishing amount of removal and should be the clamp-down to win us the shootout. Equipment is no good if they can’t attach it to a creature, and Mother of Runes cannot protect against sacrificial removal. We have Wasteland for Karakas shenanigans, too.

The only card to worry about here is Aether Vial, which we bring in Pithing Needle for (like the aforementioned). It’s a very multilateral tool that hits so many relevant targets (Karakas, Vial, Mother, Mangara, etc.).

OVERALL: VERY FAVORABLE (65/35).

Burn

A tricky, yet winnable match. There isn’t a single creature that will stick on the board, first and foremost. With systematic discard paving the way for creatures like Vampire Nighthawk and Abyssal Persecutor, it is going to force them to expend burn on your creatures rather than yourself. This is where hand-depletion becomes key, as now we are able to drop threats (with a Jitte, perhaps) and beat-down unmercifully until the game is over. Burn players wash their hands out very fast and with discard to boot, they will be out of time in a hurry. A resolved and unattended Nighthawk is major trouble for them.

There are some setbacks in the first game that could hurt us, however. Cards like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom early can be problematic if enough damage is dealt. The trick is knowing when it is safe Game One to drop either of these cards before they become too dangerous to depend on. Of course, you can’t win if you don’t take risks, so sometimes it is all right to drop them and hold your breath.

Spinning Darkness is magnificent in this match. Generally, the Burn player will churn out a few threats to compensate for no permanent sources of damage. Being able to gain even just three life (generally) negates one of their burn spells and allows us to establish board presence with creatures. If an opponent decides to hit our creatures, they will be mislead into having to deal with them and not me. This fuels Darkness’s free cost.

Jitte is unquestionably a back-breaker in this match. All in all, Burn will just stall out after two or three turns and go into top-deck mode. From there, it’s easy pickings as threat after threat implodes their strategy and becomes just overwhelming. Sword of Light and Shadow is also a back-breaker that again forces a burn player to divert his or her attention to your threat as opposed to you.

Most people don’t give Burn the credit it deserves for doing what it does best, which I do. Burn is a tough match – no mistake – but there are too many relevant threats and cards that supplement our life total that it just gets too hard for them to overcome.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).

Canadian Thresh

The “dream match” if there ever was one. There are so many ways to disrupt Canadian Thresh, it isn’t funny. Canadian Thresh really only runs eight or nine creatures and they are all green. Deathmark becomes awesome and sacrificial effects nail Nimble Mongoose. They gain hardly any tempo on the lack of non-basic lands we run and zero fetches that eat it to Stifle. There are few, if any ways, this deck can top The Gate’s unstoppable amount of removal in addition to its “under the radar” approach dodging tempo-attacking decks.

With an ultra-sensitive mana base, Wasteland becomes even more relevant against the Thresh player. Granted, they run Stifle, but consistency is what matters most and if they happen to have one, it may be preceded by Duress to stun them and perhaps even win us the game. There is just too much for them to deal with and they simply do not have the firepower to deal with it all.

Sideboarding really doesn’t even matter here. We could keep the deck as it is and the match will even stay just as good for us Games Two and Three as it does for us Game One. They have nothing relevant against mono-black decks that are built in this manner. The only cards that may give us a speck of trouble are Sower of Temptation and or Firespout. Even then, that just isn’t simply enough when you consider the amount of hate we run.

There isn’t even a need to overextend our resources once we: Deplete their hand, force them to use counters to protect their hand, and subsequently cash-in with removal on their minimal threats.

OVERALL: VERY FAVORABLE (65/35).

Landstill

This is another one of those matches where Hymn to Tourach gets better and better. It is a very difficult match to be sure, but it can also very difficult for the Landstill player. They must sustain the first few turns of play or otherwise stare down a clock. They play a lot of removal, which can be bad for us. Fortunately, Wasteland is a big help against early Duals and Factories, and discard helps against a resolved Standstill by plucking what they need most at a given time.

Games two and three are a little tricky because the deck is already using discard-control elements to work in every single game anyways. Dystopia is about the only card that would come in to help against enchantments like Humility and Moat (which even then isn’t a huge problem because we run fliers all over the place with Nighthawk, Persecutor, and Bitterblossom), although Dystopia is actually much better in many other ways. Landing a Bitterblossom that sticks is very good, and if our opening hand is good enough, we can pull it off.

Pithing Needle comes in to help save the day against Jace, the Mind Sculptor and the like. It is so useful in this match that it becomes almost a crime not to run a full set of four. Being able to shut down their most important cards for the rest of the game at such a low cost is certainly worth consideration, but a minimum of three should find their way into this match- no doubt.

Still, this is a match we don’t really want to see too often. If we can cripple them hard to start the game, we have a good shot at doing some damage. Landstill unfortunately is very resilient and we need to try and steal the first game to put the pressure on.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY UNFAVORABLE (45/55).

Mono White Stax

This is a match that on paper looks fairly un-winnable. Fortunately in play-testing, this is proven to be untrue. This is a surprisingly very favorable match. The biggest thing is being able to hit their best cards early and often with discard. Wasteland is obviously huge in slowing them down and knocking out cards like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. If we can get in there enough before a series of Ghostly Prisons emerge, we should - and probably will - win the game. Bitterblossom is just devastating in putting them on a clock as they now have to find a way to race my permanents with Smokestack. There is little chance one of their only creatures (Magus of the Tabernacle) will stick anyways, so maintaining a legitimate clock shouldn’t be a problem.

If we’re on the play, that can become very bad for them. Hymn is just devastating and Chalice really doesn’t affect us all that much. We can still sacrifice Persecutor to satisfy the alternate cost of Therapy even with Chalice out to win the game.

Sideboarding gets solid for us after game one. Gate to Phyrexia and Dystopia are just devastating and there really isn’t anything they can do to stop it all together. What gives us the edge in this match are cards like that in the second and third games that are far more back-breaking than anything they can bring in to stop us, as these cards stop whatever they bring in for us too.

Extirpate isn’t that bad here either, as hitting those problematic cards once they’ve been dropped by discard becomes pretty effective.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY FAVORABLE (55/45).

The Rock

Rock variants over the years have gained notoriety for having solid match-ups against many competitive decks in the format.

Thankfully, so do we.

It is extraordinarily difficult for either deck to gain a distinct advantage over the other because both decks play similarly. It really depends on whose opening hand is stronger with discard and creatures than the other. The first game is a toss-up that comes down to a war of attrition and being able to stick a clock and roll with it.

Sideboarding also depends on the variant we are playing against. Depending on who goes first, we board accordingly and go from there. There is enough discard and removal Game One to go around, and likewise for them. This is the definitive coin-flip match because both decks match firepower as it pertains to removal and threats. Both decks are predicated on crippling and sculpting the board in their own favor, and a clear-cut winner can ultimately be determined by skill of player and boarding correctly.

Mulligan when necessary but be vigilant when deciding if it’s the right choice when being on the play or on the draw.

OVERALL: EVEN (50/50).

Dream Halls

This is a fairly expensive combo to get going. We have enough discard to slow them down and cripple their hand, while doing the same with key Wastelands. Assuming they even try to land a Progenitus off Show and Tell, there is no way in hell that is going to stay in play. If we can cripple them enough, we’ll just go beat-down for the win. If they resolve Dream Halls with Conflux ready to go, it is over.

Games two and three are a little better with cards like Nevinyrral’s Disk potentially coming into the picture. Extirpate and or Sadistic Sacrament are other helpful cards that would reduce their combo to nothing.

As long as we can knock out the relevant cards the following games, we can win. This isn’t a fast combo deck, and the more the game goes along the more it favors us. If they can’t win with Progenitus, they’ll have to win with Conflux.

Good luck.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).

43 Lands

Lands are an iffy match but not entirely un-winnable. The trick is being able to hit Life from the Loam and hopefully knocking out key spells on the play turn one. If we can stall long enough, we can get the win. If not, it becomes harder and harder as the game wears on to stop their lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith.

One good thing is that Extirpate can slow them down and can eliminate important spells or lands in their graveyard. It’s very hard to gain an edge in this match though because so much of the game is predicated on them building their board with lands that we simply cannot stop. It’s definitely not the match we want to see, depending on their start. Otherwise, we’ll have to contend with an explosive start of Exploration and or Manabond.

Paired with our sorcery-speed removal, this isn’t exactly the ideal match-up and there is little we can do except go for the throat before things get out of hand. Tsabo’s Web is a cute touch to help if need be.

OVERALL: UNFAVORABLE (40/60).

Thopter-Sword Combo

Gauging this match is relatively easy because of how much the deck relies on this combo to win the game. The problem lies in its resiliency, which is unfortunately very strong. Depending on what kind of start we get, we can annihilate their hand and create a clock (depending on what variation they are playing and whether or not Counter-Top is active). If they cannot get this combo going Game One and we have a solid start, chances are good we can slow them down enough to get the win.

Knock out Academy Ruins with Wasteland immediately and on sight. That card makes us work twice as hard and we don't need the headache.

Games two and three are a little more fun with Dystopia, which knocks out Thopter. Extirpate is also relevant as it stops the combo right in its tracks – same with Faerie. Punish them with cards like Sword of Fire and Ice and cash-in on a clock by forcing them to distort their thinking. If we choose to play (and land) a Sacrament, that can truly be devastating. Pithing Needle is a more effective solution that can solve the problem (temporarily) and allow you to go for the throat.

This match is a dog-fight but I’ve always found myself on the winning end of matches because by the time the combo goes online, they are already too low on cards or life that it just doesn’t matter as they stare down an alpha-strike.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY FAVORABLE (55/45).

*Matches are based on a scale of favorability as follows:

Very Unfavorable (35/65)
Unfavorable (40/60)
Slightly Unfavorable (45/55)
Even (50/50)
Slightly Favorable (55/45)
Favorable (60/40)
Very Favorable (65/35)

badjuju

03-16-2010, 01:14 AM

Very cool. I'm excited to see more development

kicks_422

03-16-2010, 01:33 AM

Is 20 lands really enough, considering your curve? You've got a lot of 1cc spells, but 7 creatures with 3cc (counting Gatekeeper) and 4 with 4cc.

LegacyDan

03-16-2010, 01:46 AM

I like the Maindeck Macabre, very interesting..... I myself have been trying to figure a way to abuse Persecutor and you seem to have found a good shell for him to fit into, KUDOS.

I would be VERY interested in seeing your matchups from the tourney it placed fourth in.

Although, only seven ways of killing your Persecutors? And Chalice at one deletes that option.... Plus Deathmark? this is another reason I am curious about the tourney report.

P.S.- I have always loved using Nighthawk/Jitte together.

hungryLIKEALION

03-16-2010, 01:57 AM

_erbs_

03-16-2010, 02:02 AM

Why no dark rituals ? it could powerout the persecutor as early as 2nd turn after 3 swings all you need is cabal theraphy or innocent blood. I know dark confidant is a great card drawer but having bitterblossom aswell and the chance of flipping a persecutor is kinda suicide. I know you have nighthawk and jitte for lifegain but its still very risky.

If the deck really needs a card drawer maybe phyrexian arena is much better over dark confidant.

LegacyDan

03-16-2010, 02:08 AM

He has 11 ways to remove persecutor, 4 gatekeeper 4 innocent blood and 3 cabal therapy, and the therapy flashback is uncounterable because it's a cost, so he can still just cast the therapy, let chalice counter it, and then flash it back for victory.

If I am not mistaken, Chalice can still counter it. Flashing it back means you are still playing a spell, and Chalice will check Therapy's CMC and then counter it again.

...and my bad, I forgot about Gatekeeper being able to KO Persecutor.

Vacrix

03-16-2010, 02:09 AM

This is great. I happen to have most of the deck so I'll give it a spin when I get my hands on a few more Confidants.

Whats the board look like? I know you are still working on it, but a working board could at least help with the development of the deck. You should post it Hollywood.

Sevryn

03-16-2010, 02:32 AM

Sorry, I'm really not buying the Deathmarks main idea. Why not just Diabolic Edicts or something, with Deathmark in the board?

sclabman

03-16-2010, 02:57 AM

I too wasn't sold on Deathmarks, until I realized what creatures I was consistently matched up to and having trouble with. It's useless against Goblins and Merfolk though which I don't like. Smother is my go-to removal of choice for decks with black, so I'll definitely be testing both.

Sims

03-16-2010, 07:57 AM

If I am not mistaken, Chalice can still counter it. Flashing it back means you are still playing a spell, and Chalice will check Therapy's CMC and then counter it again.

...and my bad, I forgot about Gatekeeper being able to KO Persecutor.

If you don't have one in the grave, cast it and have it countered. Then flash it back. It doesn't matter if the flashback is countered or not, as the sacrifice is part of the flashback cost, so the other player is doomed.

Nidd

03-16-2010, 08:20 AM

Could you use Cardtags, please?

Also, very, very nice list. once persecutor starts tod rop in price, I'll see whether I'm able to sleeve this baby up!

Maveric78f

03-16-2010, 09:04 AM

If you don't have one in the grave, cast it and have it countered. Then flash it back. It doesn't matter if the flashback is countered or not, as the sacrifice is part of the flashback cost, so the other player is doomed.

Meddling Mage FTW or should I say FNL (for not losing) !

Tao

03-16-2010, 09:18 AM

I think this should be moved to N&D. The opening post is nice, but the list has no real tournament success so far and in my opinion the list is not good yet. 16 Swamps and 4 Wastelands without any Draw or search are by far too less Mana for a deck with 7 3-Drops, 4 4-Drops and Jitte. 23-24 lands are needed with this curve (I mean it, 22 lands would be not enough and 20 lands is a joke).

Deathmark is questionable with Goblins and Merfolk in the format and other options like Doom Blade or Smother available. Also Faerie Macabre Maindeck is nothing that should be presented in an opening post because a card that is dead against Countertop, Merfolk, Goblins and prett ymuch dead against Zoo and ANT is clearly a Metagame choice.

Aleksandr

03-16-2010, 10:21 AM

Meddling Mage FTW or should I say FNL (for not losing) !

Innocent Blood / Deathmark FTW?

Justin

03-16-2010, 10:29 AM

Nice write up, but I agree with Tao that this should be moved to N&D. Established is for decks that have posted multiple results and multiple big tourneys. You might also take a look at this thread for a similar deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16245-Contaminated-Demons/page3

Moduloc

03-16-2010, 11:17 AM

I really like your idea, how about using Phyrexian Tower for speed and to kill your Evil angel.

Michael Keller

03-16-2010, 11:33 AM

I asked Nihil before posting the list and primer in here and he okay'ed it.

There will be a lot of similar incarnations, but the fact is this variation placed well also in its first large tournament and it is important to try and build on it from here so we can develop it into a more efficient product. It doesn't matter to me where it goes.

I think this should be moved to N&D. The opening post is nice, but the list has no real tournament success so far and in my opinion the list is not good yet. 16 Swamps and 4 Wastelands without any Draw or search are by far too less Mana for a deck with 7 3-Drops, 4 4-Drops and Jitte. 23-24 lands are needed with this curve (I mean it, 22 lands would be not enough and 20 lands is a joke).

Deathmark is questionable with Goblins and Merfolk in the format and other options like Doom Blade or Smother available. Also Faerie Macabre Maindeck is nothing that should be presented in an opening post because a card that is dead against Countertop, Merfolk, Goblins and prett ymuch dead against Zoo and ANT is clearly a Metagame choice.

1. It placed 4th out of 32 players in its first tournament with a flawed sideboard. Even pending improvements, that is a success in its own right.

2. Dark Confidant is the deck's primary draw engine, but drawing isn't necessarily what makes the deck ultimately effective; it is generating card advantage that wins you games by depleting their resources while building your own.

3. 23 to 24 lands in a mono-colored build is a relatively terrible idea. The cards that cost three or four to play are of no concern because of the setup due to the copious amounts of one-cost removal, board control, and discard. Fact is, your opponent should rarely have a creature out while you do. Calling twenty lands a joke is absurd; I only got mana screwed once against New Horizons in the tournament and I almost ended up pulling that game out because of the one-cost removal I play.

4. Goblins does not define the Legacy format anymore and sees play once every so often. It is still a good deck, but again: I'm willing to play four Deathmark and take my chances (which are still phenomenal) on the format as a whole than utilize other relegated removal for a deck I can still lock horns with. It's like calling Red Elemental Blast bad in Imperial Painter, which it isn't, and then calling a card which is actually more useful by itself (in some ways) bad, when it really is far from.

You haven't even seen a sideboard yet to make such a conclusive statement. That is being worked on.

5. Faerie Macabre won me 75 to 80% of my matches; beating Reanimator and Ichorid, so obviously you have no clue what you're saying. At worst, he's a 2/2 flying creature that gets in there. He's a body for Therapy and Jitte. He's just...that good.

Dead against Zoo? Since when is shrinking Goyf (which is very relevant when you play Nighthawk) or plowing through an opponents' creatures with removal then attacking a bad thing? I think you're just taking the good away and addressing the bad...without understanding how good the good is.

Maveric78f

03-16-2010, 11:51 AM

badjuju

03-16-2010, 11:53 AM

Also Faerie Macabre Maindeck is nothing that should be presented in an opening post because a card that is dead against Countertop, Merfolk, Goblins and prett ymuch dead against Zoo and ANT is clearly a Metagame choice.

Vs. ANT, it is likely they will opt to win with IGG if given the opportunity. Responding to it by pitching Faerie Macabre is a tech play, especially if they Orim's Chanted you already before going off. If they go off via AdN, well, there's nothing you can really do about that, but saying Faerie Macabre is "pretty much dead" vs ANT is false.

DrJones

03-16-2010, 11:59 AM

Vs. ANT, it is likely they will opt to win with IGG if given the opportunity. Responding to it by pitching Faerie Macabre is a tech play, especially if they Orim's Chanted you already before going off. If they go off via AdN, well, there's nothing you can really do about that, but saying Faerie Macabre is "pretty much dead" vs ANT is false.Heh, Faerie Macabre is tech against Cabal Ritual, too, I love meddling with their numbers.

Michael Keller

03-16-2010, 12:03 PM

Checking Honesty: how is your Enchantress MU?

More seriously, are you sure you want to play wasteland ? Instead you could play more swamps and 2 strongholds (looks good with Faerie Macabre). Seeing your list, I'm quite sure you experience difficulties to kick Gatekeeper. I would also follow the advices concerning your mana base and fitting 1 or 2 more lands.

About Deathmark, my concern is that you have no instant removal and this can be sometimes kind of a problem. Apart from that, it probably does the job you want it to do.

Enchantress game one goes like this: You have Duress and Therapy. If your opponent is on the play and plays Wild Growth, name Enchantress's Presence. You have Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper for Argothian Enchantress, and you can just try beat in for the win. Game two, you bring in some board hate for Replenish (or Bog if you want to main deck that), and Nevinyrral's Disk to hit everything they have. You have Wasteland for the Sanctum. I'd say it really depends on who goes first, but I'd give Enchantress a 60-40 to 65-35 match game one, with a potential 50-50 game two. Again, depends on the sideboard.

God I've never had difficulties kicking him. With solid basics, I don't have to worry about Waste effects, Stifling, Moon effects, Price of Progress, anything. I've never played a game where I couldn't get to three black.

I don't count Wasteland as a land in the deck for the reasons you just gave, Maveric. I'm considering, however, potentially going up to 18 mana sources and adding two Bogs.

LegacyDan

03-16-2010, 12:49 PM

While I do think this deck MIGHT benefit from going up to 18 Black mana producers, I would be very leary on using Bog. Its Sorcery speed Graveyyard hate when most graveyard based decks laugh at that idea. Granted, it helps against Goyf, but ya already got maindeck hate for him.

Nelis

03-16-2010, 12:59 PM

Ichorid's main weapon to combat graveyard hate is Duress or Thoughtseize. It happened too often I lost my grave removal (in other decks) to those cards, so them not being able to get rid of Bojuka Bog is a plus if you ask me. Against the other decks you have more time anyway.

wcm8

03-16-2010, 01:17 PM

Is there a reason you are not playing Hymn to Tourach in a mono-black deck? Sure, it's random, but 2-for-1 is the definition of card advantage and it has a good chance of wrecking a lot of decks early on. It's utility is limited later-game, but then so is the creature control against combo and a lot of control.

I also think at least 2 Dark Ritual should be considered for an explosive opening.

Justin

03-16-2010, 01:26 PM

Here's a couple ideas lifted from the Contaminated Demons thread. Contamination could be a strong card for a deck like this. It is mana denial against most opponents (preventing them from playing spells) and you should be able to have plenty of creatures to sac for the upkeep cost. Second, you could run a number of black fetches to make room for Bloodghast. You can keep Bloodghast on the board a lot and use it as a sac outlet for stuff.

umbowta

03-16-2010, 02:13 PM

I think this should be moved to N&D. First off, sorry Tao, I have to agree that this belongs in established. I played a VERY similar deck recently and went 4-0 in matches, soundly defeating both Merfolk and Thresh, WITHOUT a sideboard. I didn't have a side because I had just built the damn thing and had no idea what to board yet. So I said, "F-it. Lets have some fun". The card advantage theory packed into this archtype is so often insurmountably strong I was shocked. Love the deck. Love that someone else is working on it too.

2. Dark Confidant is the deck's primary draw engine, but drawing isn't necessarily what makes the deck ultimately effective; it is generating card advantage that wins you games by depleting their resources while building your own.

I actually eschewed Dark Confidant in favor of Sword of Fire and Ice and Bloodghast. Both directions generate card advantage but SoFaI/Bloodghast feels more aggressive and stronger against Zoo. SoFaI also makes Merfolk pilots cry...even more.

3. 23 to 24 lands in a mono-colored build is a relatively terrible idea. The cards that cost three or four to play are of no concern because of the setup due to the copious amounts of one-cost removal, board control, and discard. Fact is, your opponent should rarely have a creature out while you do. Calling twenty lands a joke is absurd; I only got mana screwed once against New Horizons in the tournament and I almost ended up pulling that game out because of the one-cost removal I play.

4. Goblins does not define the Legacy format anymore and sees play once every so often. It is still a good deck, but again: I'm willing to play four Deathmark and take my chances (which are still phenomenal) on the format as a whole than utilize other relegated removal for a deck I can still lock horns with. It's like calling Red Elemental Blast bad in Imperial Painter, which it isn't, and then calling a card which is actually more useful by itself (in some ways) bad, when it really is far from.
I'm actually running 20 land and four Dark Rits alongside 3 Damnations. Funny thing is, Damnation was rarely generating the card advantage it should because of GateKeeper, Nighthawk, Jitte, and SoFaI keeping the board nice and clear ...or just providing such a strong clock that I could care less about what else is on the board at the moment. I'll be trying your Deathmark plan for sure. Nice call on the Faerie Macabre too...I should've thought of that.

Thanks for sharing.

Tao

03-16-2010, 02:31 PM

markbris

03-16-2010, 02:46 PM

A couple people mentioned smother and smother does kill all of those creatures you listed for deathmark other than blazing archon and sphinx but will also cover goblins and merfolk. I dunno, seems like a good choice.

SteakKnife

03-16-2010, 03:09 PM

I am having trouble believing that noone has compared this deck to the one Craig Wostratzky piloted to a 5th place spot on the SCG 5k tour.

Here is his list.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

Creatures
3 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Shriekmaw
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Enchantments
3 Phyrexian Arena

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries
1 Chainer's Edict
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach

Basic Lands
7 Swamp

Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bojuka Bog
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
2 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Extirpate
2 Chainer's Edict

The decks are very similar with a few choice differences.
Both decks run ~12-15 removal spells.
Both run ~8 Discard Spells.
Both are ~20 lands.
Arena over Confidant.
Tombstalker over Persecutor.
Bog over Fairie.

Major differences are running Dark Rit. to power out a first turn Arena. Hollywood is also running Jitte and Blossom which are better in his more aggro deck.

I believe we could use Craig's Side as a starting point as well.

Nihil Credo

03-16-2010, 03:09 PM

Some clarifications feel needed:

1) 4th out of 32 is hardly an impressive finish. However, this is a common misunderstanding: tournament success has never been a requirement for a deck being present in the Established forum, though it is welcome. The Established forum is for "Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested". It doesn't really matter how good they are; what matters is how close they are to how good they can be.

A good example of this are decks like Spring Tide or DreadStalker. Their metagame presence has never been more than negligible, and they're generally agreed to pretty much suck; why, then, are they in Established? Because they are "finished" decks: if one wants to build sorcery-speed High Tide combo, you are going to start from the lists presented in the Spring Tide thread. You may have improvements, even significant ones, but the Established lists are unlikely to be completely off the mark.

Hollywood's deck is a black midrange build. I happen to strongly suspect that there is a pretty low ceiling to the power level of this archetype because of several reasons, mainly the lack of versatility of its threats and answers leading to critical inconsistency. Nonetheless, that is irrelevant.

What matters here is whether the proposed build is close enough to the "optimal" mono-black midrange that it can become a reference thread for everyone who's interested in the archetype - as opposed to Hollywood's pet project. It is not a judgment I feel confident enough to make on the spot: some cards are shoe-ins (Confidant, Blossom, Jitte), others make me feel sceptical. But not sceptical enough to automatically move it to N&D because of the list in and of itself.

2) With that said, I agree with Tao. The opening post is currently not up to Established standards. You do a good job, Hollywood, at explaining why each card is in the list, even the more unconventional ones (e.g. Deathmark). But asides from the opening and closing hype paragraphs, there is no indication of the decks's strengths and weaknesses (and it has weaknesses. If you can't say what they are, you haven't tested enough).

A sideboard and a honest matchup analysis, at the very least, are required. If you can't provide these because " the sideboard right now is in its developmental stages", then the deck does belong in N&D.

Michael Keller

03-16-2010, 03:16 PM

I understand what your deck tries to do and the concept is interesting but still this belongs to N&D. The Established Deck section is for Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. Your deck doesn't even have a Sideboard yet, so it is definetely not thoroughly tested by any means because it is impossible to test a deck without testing the games postboard. I assume you have spent more time writing the primer and linking pictures than testing a matchup ot your mana base.

I have a sideboard that I am currently developing based off what I think are the deck's inherent weak matchups. I will go into that further. As far as linking pictures are concerned, there are newer players who might not be as familiar with certain cards and I prefer to spicen up a primer by advocating certain choices using supplemental visualization as no more than a footnote during the read. If you don't like that method of writing, too bad.

See this deck list for example: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=8384

This deck can play 20 lands and get away with it. His curve ends at two, he plays 4 free spells and he also plays 4 Dark Rituals, which might be 1-shots but still give a lot of possibilities in such a low curved list. Do you even know what playing only 16 Swamps means? That means that ~40% of times you will only have 1 Swamp or less in your opener. That is flat out awful if your other cards might be Gatekeeper, the 4 Mana Demon or Nighthawk and you want to cast them at an appropiate time.This makes absolutely no sense what so ever. With an absolute plethora of one mana removal and discard, the idea isn't to simply Dark Ritual out a creature only to have it get Swords to Plowshared or Path to Exiled. It is meant to systematically dismantle an opponent's early game while preparing for turns three to five with a horde of creatures. This deck doesn't simply quit after the first turn like the archetype of Suicide Black, I'm sorry to tell you.

Gatekeeper of Malakir is the ONLY card in the deck required to need three black mana in order to be used properly. This deck, as I stated before, doesn't pack it in to Stifle, Wasteland, or other non-basic land hate as you seem to think it does. Getting mana is hardly ever a problem and upping the count of basics even to 18 would be no problem. I don't give even the slightest edge to my opponent, and if we're using percentages as a tool for debate, then you should check to see how many decks in the format currently hate on non-basic lands and come back to me. Then, we'll talk.

No, Obviously you don't know what you are saying. I said that in a certain Metagame Faerie might be right to play mainboard and I don't know if you had a good read on your local metagame or if you just got lucky with your pairings but it is a fact that the Faerie is either dead or abysmal against 2/3rd of a normal Meta and so you shouldn't advice to play it maindeck in general.You're just one of the minority on this point, so I'll dismiss it as invalid because results speak louder than words.

I really don't think you have tested the Zoo matchup at all if you think that a 2/2 flier is relevant or that "shrinking their Goyf" will be useful more than 1 time out of 20. The same is true against ANT, it may do something relevant in 1 out of 20 games but it will usually suck.There is a metric fuckton of decks in the format at this time that currently thrive and abuse the graveyard. I don't even know where to start on this. I don't know what you're talking about, because I actually have tested the Zoo matchup out (pre-board) and determined that this deck has a slight overall edge of a winning margin by time after time after time destroying their creatures while gaining life off Jitte and Nighthawk.

In case you didn't read this primer carefully, I mentioned already how long I had been testing this for before I even considered playing it in a tournament. Faerie Macabre is never a dead card. Again, one of the minority on this and no one agrees with you based on simplistic results. The card wins games, I'm sorry if you don't want to believe that.

As far as the sideboard goes, there is a massive tournament approaching in the next few weeks and there are some cards I'd rather not mention because they are secret tech. After the fact, no problem. But basic sideboard options I already stated I will go over and we can all pitch in our two cents to see what works best. If placing the deck in New and Developmental lets people decide for themselves what they can do to better the deck, I'm all for that; whatever works best.

Nihil: I agree; that's totally fine. But, fourth out of thirty-two in the deck's inaugural event can be an eye-opener of sorts, especially considering the quality of decks that were defeated. We can wait to pass judgement in the coming weeks to months but for now victory is a fantastic starting point to address the deck's weaknesses and strengths under a microscope.

All right, then. Moved to N&D until the meat shows up. ~NC

hungryLIKEALION

03-16-2010, 03:25 PM

To me, running Macabre main is similar to running Grip main. Sure, grip is there for CB/Top, but if you pick off a sylvan library or jitte with it against zoo it's still not a "dead" card. Macabre hoses reanimator, which is currently a very popular deck, but also picks up a jitte or just flies over for unblockable damage against the rest of the format; This is not an illegitimate use for a card that has such a massive upswing in other matchups.

AcidFiend

03-16-2010, 07:03 PM

I'd drop Deathmark for Hymn. Its just better.

I don't really like Faerie Macabre either. With Leyline/Extirpate in the board, you already have Graveyard strategies covered (with the possibility of adding a few Bogs main as well). With Blossom you have enough flyers to carry Jitte. Since I advocated taking out Deathmark for Hymn, if you wanted some targeted removal I'd consider Shriekmaw in this spot. In a pinch has Fear for Jitte-carrying too.

jrsthethird

03-16-2010, 09:43 PM

I think I watched you test this against a UGB build at Jupiter Games this weekend while we were waiting for the Top 8 to finish. It looked pretty interesting then.

I agree that Shriekmaw should be in there instead of Deathmark. Also gives you more utility in the late game by swinging with Fear. He fits your CA theme as well by being a late-game 2-for-1.

I like the maindeck Faerie Macabre too; I would compare it to something like Qasali Pridemage. Ask yourself, why doesn't anyone run Sigiled Paladin? It's a better body on the field than Pridemage, being a 2/2 Exalted, First Strike for 2. It doesn't have the situational utility of Pridemage, so Pridemage gets played because of the possibility of being able to kill enchantments/artifacts (and as a result losing the creature).

So we can compare Faerie Macabre to something like Kor Aeronaut, which is a 2/2 flyer for 2 mana, the same body as Faerie Macabre, but cheaper. But Kor Aeronaut is unplayable since all he does is swing, no situational utility. Faerie Macabre is less efficient than the Aeronaut but he has a situational grave-hate ability (also resulting in the loss of your creature) which renders him much more playable than Aeronaut.

dyzzy

03-16-2010, 10:09 PM

Innocent Blood and Wasteland makes me think this deck also wants Smallpox.

On a budget note, I don't have Persecutors - think Tombstalker could fit in that spot (maybe as a 2/3 of)? Obviously with some Tops because of Bob.

(in b4 turning the list into a typical MBA build...)

Clark Kant

03-16-2010, 11:10 PM

Excellent analysis Nihil Credo. I think you are spot on.

There is no reason why there can't be a black aggro deck in the Established Forum. But it has to fewer narrow cards than the deck in the OP is.

I've seen a far more optimized way to use Persecutor that was very impressive (it played Innocent Blood, Small Pox, Pox, Gatekeeper, Bloodghast, Tombstalker and basically no other creatures)

This list seems more optimized and I love it...

I am having trouble believing that noone has compared this deck to the one Craig Wostratzky piloted to a 5th place spot on the SCG 5k tour.

Artifacts
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

Creatures
3 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Shriekmaw
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Enchantments
3 Phyrexian Arena

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries
1 Chainer's Edict
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach

Basic Lands
7 Swamp

Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bojuka Bog
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
2 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Extirpate
2 Chainer's Edict

Referring to the list in the OP,

Deathmark is way too narrow for a maindeck card. What does it do against goblins, merfolk, dragon stompy, fairie stompy, Dreadnought/Lodestone/Metalkworker, sligh and tons of other decks, including the mirror matchup. I would much rather play Snuff Out, esp since you're playing Vampire Nighthawk. Red, Artifacts and Blue (stuff like merfolk, vendilion clique, sower of temptation) have more creatures in the format than white and green do. You should play something that hits a ton more colors like Snuff Out, Smother, Smallpox or Edict.

Also, black aggro staples like Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach are staples for a reason, they're ridiculously powerful. IMO, it's a mistake not to play them over a few of the weaker threats this deck runs (Fairie Macabre, Bitterblossom etc). Fairie Macarbre is not good enough for the MD. It doesn't really hate the graveyard like Bog does. Bog greatly hurts Goyf and Tombstalker, which see a lot more play than Ichorid and Reanimator (the only things Macarbre hurts) And Duress seems weak compared to both Thoughtseize and Hymn.

Otherwise the rest of the deck looks very strong.

You're off to a great starting point, good job.

Tivon

03-16-2010, 11:31 PM

You wouldn't run snuff out for the same reason that you don't run thoughtseize. The deck runs Vampire Nighthawk, but the lifegain from Nighthawk and jitte is to allow you to use dark confidant. Doomblade costs 2 but is at least an instant and has slightly higher utility in being able to also hit the decks which you mentioned, however, it is also dead in the mirror and costs 2. I think that smother would be a better choice as it still hits a lot of creatures but can still target black creatures at 2 mana. But snuff out would definitely be more life loss than you want to deal yourself - not to mention additional lifeloss from flipping it with Confidant. If anything, I would play Doomblade or Smother in that slot over Deathmark.

Arguing that a card is dead against merfolk and goblins is one thing, but stating that something is dead against Dragon Stompy is a bit of a joke. Dragon Stompy is certainly not Tier one, and is something you might see once per tournament - if someone even shows up with it.

Clark Kant

03-16-2010, 11:56 PM

Going back to Craig's list...

Disk seems unneccesary. You play tons of creature removal, and too many creatures to be playing sweepers. Discard should be enough to deal with problem artifacts/enchantments.

Which brings me to...

Thoughtseize > Duress is it not

Smother > Edict. Smother hits 95% of the creatures out there. Plus it's targeted, which is nice for when there's a creature you really want to take out since you're playing so much removal that isn't targeted.

The exception to Smother being better is if you're playing Abyssal Persecutor. The card seems like it could be a natural fit in this deck.

Also, with wastelands, you could instead play Smallpox and Pox to support them.

Here's my sample list.

4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Tombstalker
2 Bloodghast

4 Smallpox
3 Pox

2 Phyrexian Arena

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Innocent Blood

8 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bojuka Bog
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower

I wish it had room for Crucible.

Tivon

03-17-2010, 12:20 AM

Yeah, I wasn't trying to argue that Deathmark was too narrow, just that the proposed alternative wasn't the best proposed alternative. I personally really like Deathmark on paper when I think about all the different decks I've seen in the past two events i've attended that it hits. There was an abundance of Merfolk at the most recent Jupiter Games event, which is the main reason that I'm thinking of alternative spells that have the added benefit of slightly more flexibilty.

Clark Kant

03-17-2010, 12:20 AM

To critics of Deathmark as being too narrow, I have a question: how different is it from Snuff Out or Spell Pierce? Both are considered top-class spells for what they do, but both are also extremely narrow as well.

Lol, Spell Pierce and Snuff Out aren't anywhere close to as narrow as Deathmark. Deathmark is dead 60% more often.

Clark Kant

03-17-2010, 12:43 AM

It's pretty straight forward.

Snuff out hits red creatures, blue creatures, green creatures, white creatures AND artifacts. There's very few decks in the format that it doens't effect. Deathmark only hits white and green. It can't do jack against merfolk, goblins, fairie stompy, workshop aggro, affinity, sligh and countless other decks.

Spell Pierce hits all instants, sorcries, enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers. There's basically zero decks in the format that doesn't play one of the aforementioned card types. Deathmark only hits green and white creatures.

Hence, Deathmark is a lot more narrow.

Like I said, if you want midrange aggro control (basically a monoblack version of The Rock), I would play this...

4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Tombstalker
2 Bloodghast

4 Smallpox
3 Pox
3 Sign in Blood/Phyrexian Arena

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole

8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
3 Bojuka Bog
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

It's more disruptive and plays more aggressive creatures that put opponents on a tighter clock.

Clark Kant

03-17-2010, 02:12 AM

I think you're wrongly considering all of the hypothetical possibilities for Smother and Spell Pierce versus Deathmark rather than the much, much fewer actual possibilities that will arise in a game. Believe it or not, not every deck plays every card ever...

And since you mentioned it, there are no planeswalkers @CMC=2.

I'm going to assume you've never tested the deck with MD Deathmark...

:really:And I'm going to assume that you don't know what Spell Pierce actually is.

You started your discussion with Snuff Out and Spell Pierce and saying they were dead more often than Deathmark. I'm just saying that's completely untrue.

You're right, not every deck plays every card ever. That's precisely my point. You defend Deathmark saying that pretty much every deck plays Goyf. I'm just saying that isn't true. Just a quick glance reveals that the majority of the threads in the Established Forum are centered on decks that don't play Goyfs or any green or white creatures at all. Zero Deathmark targets.

Yet all but a couple of them do play key cards that Spell Pierce, Snuff Out (and Smother) all can hit, even creatures like Mishra's Factory and Painter's Servant that are easy to neglect (and of course the obvious stuff like the various red, blue, or artifact based creature decks).

morgan_coke

03-17-2010, 02:32 AM

On the mana issue:

The mana criticisms being leveled at this deck are very, very legitimate. Even though all the basics in the deck are likely to stick around/not be disrupted, the simple point is that lacking a draw engine beyond Dark Confidant, there just aren't enough of them.

Lets take Abyssal Persecutor for example. You want to cast it on turn 4. That means you need to have drawn 4 lands by then. You have only a 42% chance of drawing four lands by turn four if you run 20 in your deck. But wait, you've got Confidant, right? Well, assuming he comes down turn 2, and lives to turn 4, you've still only got a 60% chance of having drawn a fourth land by that point. And this is of course assuming that you don't actually use any wastelands you may or may not have drawn.

The numbers aren't much better for Vampire Nighthawk. With 20 lands, you've only got a 62% chance of having a third land by turn three. If you played Bob on turn 2 and he lived, that only goes up to 70%. Again, these numbers are far, far too low for consistent performance in tournament settings.

If you want to run the curve in this deck, you need more lands, or more draw to help find lands. There's just no way around the math on that.

Tao

03-17-2010, 02:36 AM

Work over the mana base: I still think you play too few lands and you also do not take enough profit out of the possibilities the format offers. Sure it is a good thing to be completely immune to Wasteland and Stifle, but usually the profit gained by playing nonbasics is higher than the price paid. Even with a few Nonbasics, your mana base should still be rock solid. I really see no reason to not...

a) play the 4 Bojuka Bog to increase your mana base while still providing utility or

b) splash White like every second deck does just because of Swords to Plowshares. I agree with you that my suggestion Smother is not better than Deathmark because of the mana cost, but Swords is just so much better than Deathmark because it can hit the Merfolk deck, the Goblin deck, Iona (!), Manlands, Dark Confidants, Ichorids creatures, Dragon Stompy / Faerie Stompy creatures and much more I did not list. Playing nondead removal changes these matchups sustainable because even if you can side DM out you still have to keep suboptimal cards in whereas with Swords plus SB cards you have a much better Removal package post board. I think the answer should be to splash because the odds to face nonwhite/nongreen creatures are imo higher than the odds to lose against Nonbasichate, especially thanks to the recently printed Marsh Flats. The W splash also offers you Vindicate which is a decent solution to many problem cards for Mono Black decks (Enchantments, Artifacts) and if they don't play such cards it is still Removal. It would also allow you to play Stoneforge Mystic who has synergy with Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy.

SteakKnife

03-17-2010, 04:05 AM

I think you're wrongly considering all of the hypothetical possibilities for Smother and Spell Pierce versus Deathmark rather than the much, much fewer actual possibilities that will arise in a game. Believe it or not, not every deck plays every card ever. In fact, the same cards keep coming up time and again. Yes, Smother (or Snuff Out since I made the mistake of referring to it when I meant Smother) and Spell Pierce hit everything within their respective guidelines. But let's consider:

>50% of decks in the format play goyf and it's always a threat when it resolves. Deathmark is strictly superior here either because it's cheaper (Smother), not suicidal (Snuff Out) and doesn't require you to leave mana open (Spell Pierce). This means in at least 50% of cases, Deathmark is a superior choice.

All of the matchups you mentioned with the exception of "countless other decks" (I'm sure you can count them and that number is < that the amount that run goyf) are already good matchups with the sole exception of stompy and then only if they land chalice @1, which will shut off 1/3 of the deck anyway. Smother and Snuff Out don't significantly help the matchup and Pierce would be hit just as hard.

Zoo, CBtop, Bant decks (Survival, ProBant, etc.) are much harder matchups and they all run valid targets. In fact, they all run a lot of valid targets, not the least of which is the aforementioned goyf. Since these are the matchups Deathmark is geared toward anyway, it makes sense to include a strictly superior card.

So I looked up the top X lists for the last few big tourneys listed on SCG and this is what I could find.

At SCG Indy 3/14/10 of the top 16 Decks:
10 Decks ran W/G creatures (1 deck had Elspeth so I counted that)
7 Decks ran Tarmogoyf
4 of the decks running Goyf had only Goyf as G/W creatures.
2 of the 10 Decks were reanimator and I would assume that they would not get creatures that die to Deathmark.
Thus of the top 16 of SCG Indy, you could expect to use Deathmark reliably in 7 matches but your only targets in 4 of those matches are Tarmogoyf.
3 of the matches not running W/G were Merfolk x1, Goblins x1, MBC x1 in which we can safely say that any other removal spell would be better.
Deathmark: 7/16
Smother: 10/16.

SCG Richmond 2/28/10 Top 16:
7 Decks ran targets for Deathmark. (1 Merfolk deck ran Goyf)
6 of those decks had multiple targets for deathmark.
5 of the top 16 were not running W/G creatures in which another removal spell would have been better. All 5 were merfolk.
Deathmark: 7/16 Decks
Smother: 13/16 Decks

GP Madrid 2/28/10 Top 8:
5/8 Decks Ran W/G Creatures. 3x Zoo and 2x CounterTop
The other 3 decks were Reanimator x1 and ANT x2.
Smother would not be an improvement here.

There were a total of 5 Reanimator decks in the top 16/16/8 of those tourney's in which Diabolic Edict may have been a better call than either Smother or Deathmark... Of course Iona is a game over to this deck no matter what removal you are running.

So can we just agree that deathmark is probably a metagame call?

Wyrath the Great

03-17-2010, 04:20 AM

I like some aspects of this, the OP's that is, list, and as I have been working on my own AP deck for a while, I did find some of the discussions on the various card options useful. It does become a bit tiring to hear the constant "this deck is awesome and all the card inclusions are perfect"-answers. There's a lot of "do this" but not a lot of "is it really worth doing it?" or even some openess towards changing the cards. I also think that going mono-black is a big mistake. I'll probably either go with White or with Red for a sort of updated Red Death list.

tyleredw

03-17-2010, 08:42 AM

:really:And I'm going to assume that you don't know what Spell Pierce actually is.

You started your discussion with Snuff Out and Spell Pierce and saying they were dead more often than Deathmark. I'm just saying that's completely untrue.

You're right, not every deck plays every card ever. That's precisely my point. You defend Deathmark saying that pretty much every deck plays Goyf. I'm just saying that isn't true. Just a quick glance reveals that the majority of the threads in the Established Forum are centered on decks that don't play Goyfs or any green or white creatures at all. Zero Deathmark targets.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Spell Snare the entire time, and is confusing it with Spell Pierce. Clearly the comparison between Deathmark and Pierce isn't really a valid one, but comparing it with Spell Snare is much more logical, as they are both very situational cards, but focus on being an extremely cheap and efficient counter to the current metagame.

Spell Snare would see ZERO play if the current legacy format didn't revolve around the 2cc area, and as such, the same argument can be used for Deathmark, which seems like a good metagame counter to decks that are current filled with Goyfs, Knights, Nacatls, Steppe Lynx, Pridemages, Terravores, etc.

He also never meant to talk about Snuff Out, thus his explanation of his Ninja Edit, which was to change the word to Smother, and talk about how smother is situational to a certain degree as well, yet still a viable removal card.

I think we can all generally accept that Deathmark is situational and definitely a metagame call. It's stupid to disagree with that point. However, I think that in a well developed metagame, the vast majority of creatures being played in tier decks are going to be affected by Deathmark enough to warrant its use. It's a house against Zoo, Bant, Thresh decks, Aggro Loam, Survival Decks, and it's not completely dead against Ichorid if they ever return a big ass Troll. That's at least one use against basically every single deck in the DTB forum. For one mana.

Moving on:

I've been playing with the decklist from the opening post a decent amount on Magic Workstation (yes i know, not exactly the best testing, but i don't have Persecutors :frown: ) and I've noticed a few trends that I'm sure Hollywood knows about, but being that his opening post has no match-up analysis yet, It hasn't really been discussed.

Counterbalance/Top:
When this resolved against me, it wasn't instantly GG, as Persecutors and nighthawks still easily resolved, however it was slightly bothersome that all of the removal spells are 1cc and 2cc. Not to mention, the 1cc removal suite is all sorcery speed. There were actually multiple games that i would've won if deathmark was an instant and i was able to kill a Goyf in response to them flipping their top to counter the first removal spell.

Goblins:
This match-up seemed pretty even, even with the completely dead Deathmark in the main. It seemed like the match-up basically boiled down to: If he has an extremely broken fast start, he wins game 1 regardless. However, if I have a Jitte or Nighthawk, it's extremely difficult for them to deal with it and combined with 1-2 removal pieces it was enough to seal it. Bitterblossom was also amazing against them, as it essentially turned piledriver off completely. However, it definitely seems like a match-up that, if goblins was expected to be a big part of your metagame, sideboard slots would be necessary to make it favorable. Obvious option seems like E-Plague, but that seems too slow. It seemed like if i survived with a decent enough life total beyond turn 4, I would win the long game anyway. Other Suggestions?

Bant:
Wow, this match-up just wasn't even funny. This deck makes Bant decks it's bitch. Deathmark is the best removal spell ever against them, and hits 100% of their creatures, and you have, on average, 900 ways to deal with Progenitus. If Bant decks are big in your metagame, which is seeming to be what mine is turning into at least, this deck seems like a great choice against them. I'm starting to like it a lot.

Chubu!

03-17-2010, 01:49 PM

First off, @ Hollywood: Thanks for the primer! Love the decklist. I was quite excited to see your list, as it is similar to lists I have been messing with for the last month or so. Interested to see so many others chiming in, too. There's definitely something in the works, here, as so many of the decks have so many cards in common. I'll post my current list below, along with some questions/comments.

@ morgan coke:
I like your numbers. Hard numbers are good. Speculation is mediocre, at best. I am running 22 mana sources, at the moment. Could you give me the bob/no bob percentages of pulling 3 and 4 lands by turns 3 and 4, respectively? Better yet, could you just provide me the formula, so I can do it myself? Consistency is key to my enjoyment in playing a deck, to the point that I am willing to trade a bit of explosiveness for some consistency. Don't look for me on any Top 8 lists anytime soon. :)

Here's my current list, with sideboard:

Mana Sources (22):
16x Swamp
2x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Dark Ritual

Creatures (16):
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant

Spells (16):
4x Innocent Blood
4x Smother
3x Damnation
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Chainer's Edict

Artifacts (6):
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Powder Keg

SB:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
3x Faerie Macabre

Thoughts:
There's really two to three "open slots" in the deck, as I see it - Nighthawk #4 and Chainer's Edict. If I'm running Nighthawk main, I want no less than three, to have some chance of seeing him regularly. (Even with 4x bob, this chance isn't too great unless I run the full 4 Nighthawk.) Faerie Macabre seems good, but I want no less than 3, if I run her. I'd consider cutting a Keg, a VNH, and the singleton Chainer's Edict for 3x Faerie main. However, I'm a little hesitant about going down to 3x VNH. To be honest, I was skeptical about the fellow until I started running enough to accomodatet for the first one being removed almost as fast as it hit the board. Now that I'm a fan, it's hard to go back. My question: Is Faerie Macabre MVP in a wide enough variety of matches to warrant maindeck slots? I can definitely see the use in certain m/u's, I'm just having cold feet here. VNH certainly is. He is a toolbox (the good kind,) once you get one to stick. I'd even consider adding a 23rd land, depending on how it would change the percentages of drawing lands 3 and 4 in a timely fashion.

Only 16 creatures. wtf?! Call me crazy. It's working very well for me. I'm not trying to go aggro right off the bat. I want to absorb the impact of my opponent's opening 7 with my removal, Hymns, etc... then finish them off once they're in topdeck mode, or darn close to it. This list evolved from my desire to run Mono-black Control, although it's far from that, as posted. I have tested many different build-types, which I will not describe in detail for want of space, and this feels the best, to date.

Hymn/Keg/Damnation - Nice synergy here. Hymn punishes opponents for holding back. Damnation and Keg punish them for overextending. Damnation may seem counter-synergistic. I encourage all in doubt to try it out before passing judgement. Cleans up board positions that have gotten away from you. Works well with Hymn, for reasons already mentioned. 2x Volrath's Stronghold makes it even better.

3x Jitte, 3x Keg - Blows up stuff. Especially their Jitte and their Vial(s). Vial can be a problem, since much of the deck's removal is sorcery speed. Hymn and Keg can force them to dump their hand before your end step, so your removal can do its thing.

4x Smother - I'm not going to discuss the Smother/Deathmark/Swords thing here. It's been done. I choose Smother. What I would like to emphasize is that at least 4 targeted removal and 4 instant-speed removal feels best to me. Smother is both of those. Play what feels best to you. It's your deck, and I'm no authority.

Sideboard - meh. just meh. I don't hate it, but I haven't tested enough to feel out what matches are most in need of some SB-love. Obviously, I'm geared towards combo and 'yard-based decks with my build. Maybe cut 1 Leyline for the 4th Faerie? E-Plague is another option. Mine is far from optimized, IMHO.

bleuisforwhimps

03-17-2010, 03:00 PM

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 04:54 PM

Iona is everywhere, so splashing a color is very necessary because every deck here rolls over and dies to iona. Now some people will say that is oversimplifying things but here's a summary of decks getting iona in to play very fast:ichorid, reanimator,dreamhalls,survival and probably more so. So i think a splash for white (swords, path) wouldn't be too much of an offense for hardcore MB players. You could argue that cabal therapy, and duress solves that problem for you, well duress then because first turn therapy probably won't get the problem solved if you don't know what your up against.So imho i think a splash for white would be highly recommendable and would not change the way the deck plays.Thus splashing white just for Iona? Yes, plus you can have a much better sideboard too, because MB sideboards are quite narrow i think

Explain to me how the Reanimator player gets Iona in play when I Faerie Macabre it out and get it back in play with Exhume still on the stack game one?

I played against konsultant in nearly 20 games of pre and post board play and out of those twenty games, he won a total of three. Three.

Reanimator does not beat this deck. That matchup I've tested to the bone.

I'm working Phyrexian Arena into my new list; it's been ridiculously good. Also, in some current live testing, I just defeated mono-blue Merfolk 2-1.

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 05:13 PM

I just ended up going 2-2 live against Zoo. Another good option might be Spinning Darkness in the sideboard. I can substitute Dark Confidant for those against Zoo and Burn, while leaving Arena in play which is a rather negligible amount of life loss when all things are considered.

It shrinks Goyf and Lightning Helix's, essentially.

Or even Soul Spike; that would allow me to remove the *useless* Deathmarks and do some amazing things (keeping Goyf small, too). Deathmark, however, was absolutely a bomb against Zoo. Turn one Nacatl getting trail-blazed was outstanding game one.

Mystical_Jackass

03-17-2010, 06:46 PM

Cool deck, yea my friend even used Faerie as a SB teck now, I'm seeing it show up more.

The other day, the person who went 1st place at our 30+ tourney was using a similar deck except with Goyfs & Maelstrom pulse, funny enough, so this deck sorta caught my eye. But yea, nighthawk + jitte is a beast :wink:

@Deathmark

Seems okay to me. If your meta really really isn't seeing any of the power green/white creatures, SB it. I played against elves, eva green, B/W control (jotun grunts &shi*), and countertop the other day and it just so happened 4/4 games had green or white creatures in them, so in my situation I could see it =P

morgan_coke

03-17-2010, 06:48 PM

You still have yet to address the severe mana issues I pointed out. Also, EDIT your posts, don't double them within a few minutes of each other.

caiomarcos

03-17-2010, 07:22 PM

I think we can all generally accept that Deathmark is situational and definitely a metagame call. It's stupid to disagree with that point. However, I think that in a well developed metagame, the vast majority of creatures being played in tier decks are going to be affected by Deathmark enough to warrant its use. It's a house against Zoo, Bant, Thresh decks, Aggro Loam, Survival Decks, and it's not completely dead against Ichorid if they ever return a big ass Troll. That's at least one use against basically every single deck in the DTB forum. For one mana.

I'd like to point out that Smother seems like a better call against Aggro Loam. Besides the obvious problem that Chalice at one is, Smother hits what is probably the biggest threat in Aggro Loam - Countryside Crusher.

I think that's the point against Deathmark, it is not that it is dead most of the time (it is dead many times) but for those match ups where it is good, there are better options, or just as good.

It is a very narrow sorcery. Cards like that need a huge upside to be maindecked. Hitting 50% of the field is not one.

AcidFiend

03-17-2010, 07:42 PM

To critics of Deathmark as being too narrow, I have a question: how different is it from Smother or Spell Pierce? Both are considered top-class spells for what they do, but both are also extremely narrow as well.

Firstly, a lot of decks like Merfolk often run Spell Pierce in the SB. A place Deathmark would be perfect for as others have stated.

Instead of suggesting crappy decks from crappy archetypes that can't compete above tier 4 in Legacy, the OP is trying to expressly take a different approach to mono-B builds by choosing midrange control and using only cards that advance that plan. Dark Ritual is a tempo card and card disadvantage in the long run. Shriekmaw, Edict, Smother and Hymn are all tempo cards, even though Hymn nets CA. Instead of entirely missing the point by suggesting cards that have been tried and unsuccessful in making black a powerful monochromatic deck choice, consider this: all of The Gate's disruption/ removal is 1 mana, not 2. That is a very significant difference.

So now Hymn is a crappy card used in crappy Tier 5 and below decks? You just lost all credibility there bro. 17 pages of Legacy decks on Deckcheck say Hymn has been working for people. Strange lack of Deathmark to be found too.

What is the best turn 1 play the Gate has?
-Duress/Therapy/Innocent Blood/Deathmark

Compare Craig Wostratzky's list turn 1 plays:
-Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn/Edict/Nantuko/Shriekmaw
-Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena/Gatekeeper/Nighthawk

Frankly Dark Ritual is at its best when you have cards like Arena or Bob, because they make up that 'disadvantage' in a single turn!

Imagine going:
-Dark Ritual, Duress, Bob

Take their removal and go to town. DR also allows second turn Persecutors, which after a turn 1 Duress not many decks can probably handle. DR + Hymn open up some crazy plays. I think currently the Gate is playing too fairly for this format.

Also I'd prefer Withered Wretch in the Faerie Macabre slot. 1 cheaper, and just destroys graveyard decks. You can pick apart all the cards you need at instant speed, meanwhile you don't have to sacrifice it to do so. The card is underrated IMO, and is leagues more effective against the graveyard-based strategies supposedly taken care of by Faerie. The only 'con' might be it doesn't have evasion; thats why you have 4x Bittblossom. Regardless, Jitte can win games regardless of what its attached to anyways because its that strong.

arebennian

03-17-2010, 08:32 PM

If you drop Bob for Arena, wouldn't you drop Shade for Tombstalker as well?

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 08:45 PM

Firstly, a lot of decks like Merfolk often run Spell Pierce in the SB. A place Deathmark would be perfect for as others have stated.

So now Hymn is a crappy card used in crappy Tier 5 and below decks? You just lost all credibility there bro. 17 pages of Legacy decks on Deckcheck say Hymn has been working for people. Strange lack of Deathmark to be found too.

What is the best turn 1 play the Gate has?
-Duress/Therapy/Innocent Blood/Deathmark

Compare Craig Wostratzky's list turn 1 plays:
-Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn/Edict/Nantuko/Shriekmaw
-Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena/Gatekeeper/Nighthawk

Frankly Dark Ritual is at its best when you have cards like Arena or Bob, because they make up that 'disadvantage' in a single turn!

Imagine going:
-Dark Ritual, Duress, Bob

Take their removal and go to town. DR also allows second turn Persecutors, which after a turn 1 Duress not many decks can probably handle. DR + Hymn open up some crazy plays. I think currently the Gate is playing too fairly for this format.

Also I'd prefer Withered Wretch in the Faerie Macabre slot. 1 cheaper, and just destroys graveyard decks. You can pick apart all the cards you need at instant speed, meanwhile you don't have to sacrifice it to do so. The card is underrated IMO, and is leagues more effective against the graveyard-based strategies supposedly taken care of by Faerie. The only 'con' might be it doesn't have evasion; thats why you have 4x Bittblossom. Regardless, Jitte can win games regardless of what its attached to anyways because its that strong.

Dark Ritual is a card that does grant you tempo; no one is disputing that. However, what you fail to realize is that decks running Dark Ritual tend to pack it in to Swords to Plowshares or a well-timed piece of counter-magic. Deathmark is no more situational than any other card which depends on a given scenario to only work. It's just a good card.

Imagine going (on the draw): Swamp, Ritual, Hymn...

Opponent: Spell Snare.

This happens all too often. You dump your hand in hopes of gaining tempo early, without being able to do anything else beyond that. This is why actually a lot of players have abandoned Dark Rituals in their builds because it is a dead draw late game. I'm not looking to do that. Our goal is to run each turn with single-cost removal or discard and not looking forward to drawing dead late game. In case you haven't noticed; this deck has a phenomenal mid to late game because that is what it is tailored to do. It's not out to dump your hand turn one and then lose; that's not how this works.

Withered Wretch is mana-intensive and is horrible against Reanimator game one. By the time you can actually play that, they probably already have something in play; something relatively large. Macabre doesn't need any prior notice and is an uncounterable piece of graveyard hate. Which brings me to my next point...

Bojuka Bog. I really like this card, but it requires a reworking of the mana foundation. We are trading speed for control and it is important to be able to answer threats each turn. This requires us to wait. That is, however, nullified by the fact it cannot be stopped and taps for black mana.

Craig Wostratzky's list was fine for what it was meant to do; it was a faster mono-colored deck that used traditional black spells. However, the reason people keep referring to mono-black decks as being "sub-par" or "not good" is because all you're doing is trading cards for tempo at an alarming rate. But the real issue stems in trying to recuperate after the turn one play. You go into top-deck mode, essentially like he did.

Except it just happened to work out for him.

@morgan-coke: The mana issues are being worked on and I'm open to suggestions. I'm trying to fit Bog in. I double-posted because I was giving updates live as they were happening.

@caiomarcos: Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper hits Crusher too; what's your point?

AcidFiend

03-17-2010, 09:37 PM

Actually I'm embarassed to admit I was thinking you had to sac faerie not discard it. My bad. I still like Wretch in decks that can support him tho.

You wouldn't run into Spell Snare via Ritual + Hymn if you didn't have something to use the additional black for. Namely a Duress that would clear the way.

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 10:36 PM

Okay, so here is my current list, for reference:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [CS] Deathmark
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [US] Duress
1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [IN] Tsabo's Web
SB: 3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness

Based on what everyone is saying, perhaps I can go a little deeper into the deck's match-ups and do my best to explain in an honest and fair way how the deck fares:

[b]NO Bant

This is a fantastic matchup for The Gate. One of the primary characteristics of this deck is that it can knock off creatures left and right, using sacrificing as a means of kill. This helps knock off Progenitus, and two for one with Gatekeeper. Even with Counterbalance and Sensei's Top, you still play a numerous amount of three and four cost cards that it shouldn't matter if they get it online. Here is an example of a match I played recently:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6073/capture2jz.jpg

As you can see, the board state is clearly dominated by lethal damage on the board. In this game (game three), I lead off on the play with a Duress, taking a Top. I proceeded to Therapy away two Counterbalance; effectively putting my opponent in dire straits. I then dropped a Dark Confidant to generate more card advantage. Get the idea?

This is one of the most popular decks in the format at the moment. Being able to remove all of my opponents' threats is key. Being that this deck primarily runs off creatures to begin with, The Gate shouldn't have too much trouble generating an overall advantage in every facet of the game. Even Wasteland can be potentially crucifying, as it normally is (especially after killing Hierarch, leaving them nothing).

Merfolk Variants

I hadn't tested this match all that much, to be honest. But I have today, and from what I can gather The Gate holds a slight advantage over mostly all Merfolk variants, including: Mono blue, splash white, or splash green. The massive amounts of removal and frankly basic Swamps essentially nullify Lord of Atlantis as being the primary source for victory. However, against Merfolk, you need to name Lord of Atlantis on the draw if they drop Vial or turn one Vial if you're on the play. This slows them down immensely and gives you the opportunity to crush their threats and establish your own.

Games two and three are basically about playing and drawing first. If you can rip their hand apart with Hymns on the play and even Tsabo's Web (for Mutavault, perhaps), you can slow them down enough where their attempt to establish a serious board presence is greatly diminished. This is where Spinning Darkness is excellent. Being able to Helix a Lord is awesome. But overall, I'd say the match is close to 50-50 and dependent on opening hands, the draw and play factor, and mulligans.

Goblin Variants

Goblins are tricky because they have the ability to generate card advantage as well. Fortunately, you have answers for Lackey turn one. You also have numerous ways of shutting down their speed if you can nab cards with Therapy. Waste on Badlands is effective to stop Weirding effects and crippling their mana base. This is the match that I'd like to test a little more. I've played a few games against Goblins and it actually ended up in my favor overall. This is in large part due to the amount of removal the deck possesses. There was even an instance where Wort couldn't get a creature because I had to Macabre them away. I ended up kicking Gatekeeper and after trading blows, I "bobbed" into a draw-step Persecutor and smashed/sacrificed for the win.

Goblins is always a difficult match, no matter what you are playing (including combo, according to a tournament report I read on here earlier). Goblins can just get crazy in a hurry, but good thing for The Gate is that it has Innocent Bloods and Gatekeeper to assist in slowing the game down. So far about even, but total advantage may go to Goblins.

Armageddon Stax

I've been doing some extensive testing against this deck and I've found that a startling number of games came down to the first turn period. If I could somehow dodge an early Chalice, I was okay. Other times, not so much. This is where Hymn to Tourach is so absolutely awesome, which is why I included it in the board. Nevinyrral's Disk is just balls against them, too. Crucible-Wastelocking just isn't effective against you with all the basic lands you run. And Bitterblossom is very good, assuming they do not drop Ghostly Prison.

Game one is a rather tough one to pull out, depending on if you are on the play. In that instance, it is certainly winnable. Games two and three are more favorable because I see a lot of hate coming in for them and very little (if any) coming in for The Gate. There is another card I wanted to throw out there which seems excellent against this archetype (and Stax in general):

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGANQ/gate_to_phyrexia.jpg

It's really good with Bitterblossom. Here, you are able to stack it during your upkeep and knock off unwanted artifacts, including Chalice at one. It also hits Mox Diamond which depending on the circumstances can be very effective. Overall, this is another tightly contested match, but post-board things are amazing for you - giving you a distinct edge in the overall scheme.

Zoo

This is actually a very winnable match for this deck. People have a tendency to think about the loss of life being a problem, but it rarely tends to be. There is so much hate built in against creatures that there is rarely more than one on board. I've thoroughly tested this match and give an advantage to The Gate. Vampire Nighthawk and Jitte are outstanding in gaining life and knocking off creatures. Spinning Darkness is an outstanding sixth man off the bench; repaying the Helix favors. It is hard for them to recover from systematic removal and discard early. Zoo is a deck which top-decks very well.

The Gate has draw effects built into it, and because you run discard, early on you can Duress out burn spells which may be used to whittle at your life. Burn is really the only thing this deck has to worry about and with the counteracting life-gain and removal built into it, you should have no problem at least taking the match two games to one.

Strengths

http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/08/Pink-Floyd-Pig-Children-Wall.gif

One of the many strengths the deck possesses is being able to slow the game down tremendously. It can take a lickin' and keep on tickin', so to speak. With much of the format being dictated and run over by cheap, effective creatures at the moment (Rhox, Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, etc.), the deck takes each of the first three turns either removing creatures from play or discarding an opponent's hand, without having to deplete your own hand too much and banking on simply a fast start to win the game. It's methodical in its approach, and that seems to work a lot of better than most think. Creatures just keep going to the meat-grinder against you.

The creatures the deck possesses are capable of doing game-altering things. Consider knocking off an opponent's creature with Gatekeeper, and then equipping with Jitte. Or imagine them putting Iona in the yard their turn one and trying to reanimate it, only you discard Faerie to potentially get it back and stall them severely. And just imagine buying time with removal and discard while building an array of Faeries each turn. If a card in this deck does a job, there is always another to back it up, which makes it harder to stop.

Newer cards like Spinning Darkness and Skeletal Scrying also shrink Goyf, which is always a plus.

Weaknesses

Well, it's mono-black for starters. Let's be honest: Mono black decks get a bad wrap from a lot of people. It's understandable, as they feel as though after the first three turns the deck goes into top-deck mode. This is true in some instances here, but we are working on fixing that. Dark Confidant can survive believe it or not beyond a turn. What the deck is currently lacking is a little more rounded out mana base to support the curve. Even with a single Swamp, the deck can do some serious damage. Getting to three is key and getting to four means bad things for an opponent. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen as often as I'd like, and I'm working on adding more land.

I'm also trying to find another supplement to Dark Confidant, like Skeletal Scrying (which has been great). Arena won't get online until turn four, which is fine, but Scrying will hit you one from D.C. and draw you many more at an opponent's E.O.T. step. So as of right now, getting that straight is a priority.

I hoped this helps a bit. There are more strengths and weaknesses I need to address; I'm testing to work on these and reworking a card or two here and there.

Wargoos

03-17-2010, 10:43 PM

stuff

Do you have 2 Umezawa's Jitte in play in the game against the NO Bant player?
If so I have to tell you that this is not very techy...

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 10:44 PM

Do you have 2 Umezawa's Jitte in play in the game against the NO Bant player?
If so I have to tell you that this is not very techy...

Those are called counters that you can make visible for the player to see so that, you know, they aren't "hiding" behind the creature and subsequently misleading an opponent.

Very techy for..."stuff".

Wargoos

03-17-2010, 10:49 PM

Those are called counters that you can make visible for the player to see so that, you know, they aren't "hiding" behind the creature and subsequently misleading an opponent.

Very techy for..."stuff".

Ah, then it's alright, the thought that it could be there to show how many counter are on the jitte came to me after I posted.
But then I do not really play any mws, so excuse my wrong assumptions. No offense intended.

Michael Keller

03-17-2010, 11:59 PM

Ah, then it's alright, the thought that it could be there to show how many counter are on the jitte came to me after I posted.
But then I do not really play any mws, so excuse my wrong assumptions. No offense intended.

No harm, no foul.

Mystical_Jackass

03-18-2010, 12:46 AM

Question. What do you think about the card Withering Wisps, maybe as like a SB card against tribal and stuff?

Gate to Phyrexia... tell me how that works, I've wanted to try running that card forever lol, don't have my hands on any

Eldar

03-18-2010, 02:32 AM

Gate to Phyrexia seems like it would be very good also I don't know if it has been said yet but have you thought about diabolic edict, maybe instead of deathmark. I understand the logic behind deathmark it just makes me feel bad to main deck it lol. Also how about maybe just one volrath's stronghold even if only to potentially recur macabre?

badjuju

03-18-2010, 04:06 AM

Mystical_Jackass

03-18-2010, 03:09 PM

One idea, a friend of mine's actually using in a GBw deck... Fleshbag Marauder.

It's strong with Blossom & recurring nightmare (a great card for that CA u mentioned). Use to sac Persecutor, it's more smoothly imo then having to "terror" your own creature ya know. Err.. it'd be more "built in" to your game instead of being caught in a situation where you have to kill your own dude

Michael Keller

03-18-2010, 03:11 PM

Got a chance to play a few games vs. UW Tempo and Pro Bant today.

The removal package was stellar - Innocent Blood is an amazing card and was especially good versus Pro Bant. Gatekeepers and Deathmarks are really great at keeping the board clean, and Abyssal Persecutor can end games rather quickly.

For the most part the deck performed as I expected it would, but the one card I was least impressed with was Bitterblossom (oddly enough). It's a bit slow and out of place, and even though it synergizes well with some cards, the fact that it doesn't provide any immediate impact (like every other card in the deck) makes it rather underwhelming. That said, it isn't terrible, but I just am not a fan of it right now. I'd probably drop the number to something like two - the deck can function completely fine without it (and in many cases, I don't even want or need it). It might just have been the matchups I played it in and I know you strongly advocate the card - maybe I just haven't played enough games with it to see it truly shine.

In all, it feels like the deck is almost there, but still needs some sort of engine that provides more advantage. A lot of times we'll just be sitting across from each other, playing and killing each others threats, but the lack of card draw and filtering automatically puts me in worse shape than my opponents. Skeletal Scrying is a great idea, and I think it's a powerful choice. Our yards are often filled with tons of cheap spells, and it'll be an easy way to draw 3-4 cards when gas is low.

I'm glad you enjoy how the deck is playing, as I'm certainly having the same results.

Going over Skeletal Scrying, a little bit: I'd like to point out how absolutely amazing this card has been in play-testing. Here are a few reasons why it has been so good in testing and in general overall:

1.) It has a converted mana cost of one with Dark Confidant, so that works out fantastic.
2.) With all of the cards you end up playing, you can draw three or four cards without a problem.
3.) It shrinks Tarmogoyf (as if that matters here).
4.) It is an instant.
5.) It is a home-run late game when you want more cards.
6.) It is totally unexpected.
7.) You can get around Chalice at one.
8.) It dodges Counterbalance.
9.) It's a game-swinging spell.

I've liked it so much, I'm working to get two in there as we speak. With that in mind, I'd like to address Bitterblossom. I am probably going to end up cutting one for the time being and see how adding a Skeletal Scrying in its stead would pan out. The way I figure it is, if I'm losing three life total to a single Bitterblossom, I can trade that same amount of life for three cards. It isn't systematic life-loss and can just flat-out win games when an opponent least expects it.

badjuju

03-18-2010, 03:39 PM

I'm glad you enjoy how the deck is playing, as I'm certainly having the same results.

Going over Skeletal Scrying, a little bit: I'd like to point out how absolutely amazing this card has been in play-testing. Here are a few reasons why it has been so good in testing and in general overall:

1.) It has a converted mana cost of one with Dark Confidant, so that works out fantastic.
2.) With all of the cards you end up playing, you can draw three or four cards without a problem.
3.) It shrinks Tarmogoyf (as if that matters here).
4.) It is an instant.
5.) It is a home-run late game when you want more cards.
6.) It is totally unexpected.
7.) You can get around Chalice at one.
8.) It dodges Counterbalance.
9.) It's a game-swinging spell.

I've liked it so much, I'm working to get two in there as we speak. With that in mind, I'd like to address Bitterblossom. I am probably going to end up cutting one for the time being and see how adding a Skeletal Scrying in its stead would pan out. The way I figure it is, if I'm losing three life total to a single Bitterblossom, I can trade that same amount of life for three cards. It isn't systematic life-loss and can just flat-out win games when an opponent least expects it.

For sure.

I know that what I am about to complain about is in a niche matchup, but Mother of Runes was giving me a lot of problems against UW tempo. If they're on the play, they can still blow you out with Daze on Deathmark. From then on, it's just a lot of annoying things. Clogging up the board with cheap creatures so I can't properly use Gatekeeper / Innocent Blood, and then having a Serra Avenger + X Moms to permanently chump block my Abyssal Persecutors. And while we're on that subject, Jotun Grunts can get rid of Therapies, so you're forced to use them early and not be able to save them for your Persecutors. Stoneforge Mystic was another great addition to UW that was making my life living hell. An active jitte is still really hard to deal with and often times kept my Bitterblossoms at bay. He wasn't even running Sword of L/S, which people have been advocating in that thread.

By principle I should be able to just straight out-muscle the matchup, but while playing the deck I was still using the 16 Swamp / 4 Wasteland setup, which often left me stranded on lands and caused me to have no choice but to walk into Spell Pierces and Dazes. Having key spells Forced is really bad for this deck too, as you have no way of consistently keeping up. All this said, the matches all still came down to the wire. I think with the addition of Skeletal Scrying and more lands (18 vs 16 as you have already), the match might start turning more favorable than even, but it's still an uphill battle.

jrsthethird

03-18-2010, 05:16 PM

I'm testing a version of this right now with a W splash for Stoneforge Mystic and Swords. Haven't gotten many matches in but if I can get the cards I will play it at our local free tournament this Sunday and post how it does.

makochman

03-18-2010, 05:52 PM

Michael Keller

03-18-2010, 06:01 PM

I'm going to playtest something similar once I have a 4th Persecutor. In the meantime I have some comments/questions.

Wouldn't Diabolic Edict be better than Innocent Blood? It's much less situational. Innocent Blood is probably only really good against Goblins, which is not so popular right now, and only on turn 1.

Have you considered/tested Blooghast + Fetchlands? He seems a rather good Jitte carrier and works with Cabal therapy too.

& finally, wouldn't it be possible to run both Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor if this deck were to replace Dark Confidant with Phyrexian Arena and include Fetchlands and Dark Rituals? I know it's probably a different deck, but the decklist is still in a state of flux.

No, it wouldn't for the aforementioned reasons on the last few pages. It is a one mana removal spell that is used to play out over the first few turns. I believe you are incorrect about Innocent Blood being more situational than Diabolic Edict, which requires you to pass on playing threats (tapping out) and then waiting another turn to play it. Innocent Blood does the job with one mana.

And no, it is not just good against Goblins. Paired with the other removal the deck possesses, depleting your opponents' threats turn in and turn out simply allows you to play your own threats and go from there. Innocent Blood hits a turn one Noble Hierarch, and does not pack it in to a Daze (like Edict would) your turn two. If they Daze that turn one, that is fine. Now they have used a counter on something that was obviously critical to begin with. Considering that, I would have to disagree.

Bloodghast doesn't block and allows an attacker to push through. It is no real threat and doesn't work half as well as the other creatures do in the deck. Fetchlands open you up for Stifle, more unnecessary life loss, and other effects than can be presented upon activation. No tricks.

Wargoos

03-18-2010, 06:01 PM

So I gave this deck a try and playtested a bit against Banttop and Zoo-ish decks and I have to say
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xnmtl1pt5AA/Saq3n0jgmwI/AAAAAAAAAF8/6DkhyFPgXPc/s400/the-gate.jpg

Like the people say the Bant mu is a total devastation.
Discard makes it nearly impossible (besides some funky brainstorm tricks) for the opponent to
get the cblock online and no creature will survive on the opponents side to deal any damage to us - not even progenitus.
The persecutor is a real powerhouse and I actually won a game where the opponent was on -4, had the cblock and progenitus in play.
Saccing persecutor to flashbacked therapy even when the opponent had his counters was great.

Zoo was a bit worse that bant.
While the removal package still hits everything, the maindeck macabre was a bit underperforming and nighthawks did not make that much of a difference because they died to every burn/removal spell the zoo player had. Also getting jitte online still wasn't the win because of QPM's.
I believe I played 6-5 against zoo the day.
But still this deck felt great to play and I liked it even more because it remembered me on the good Torment times where MBC with shades and shambling swarms (!!) was one of the better decks.

Michael Keller

03-18-2010, 06:05 PM

So I gave this deck a try and playtested a bit against Banttop and Zoo-ish decks and I have to say

Like the people say the Bant mu is a total devastation.
Discard makes it nearly impossible (besides some funky brainstorm tricks) for the opponent to
get the cblock online and no creature will survive on the opponents side to deal any damage to us - not even progenitus.
The persecutor is a real powerhouse and I actually won a game where the opponent was on -4, had the cblock and progenitus in play.
Saccing persecutor to flashbacked therapy even when the opponent had his counters was great.

Zoo was a bit worse that bant.
While the removal package still hits everything, the maindeck macabre was a bit underperforming and nighthawks did not make that much of a difference because they died to every burn/removal spell the zoo player had. Also getting jitte online still wasn't the win because of QPM's.
I believe I played 6-5 against zoo the day.
But still this deck felt great to play and I liked it even more because it remembered me on the good Torment times where MBC with shades and shambling swarms (!!) was one of the better decks.

Did you try using Spinning Darkness in the board? I placed it in mine and it has vastly improved that match.

Wargoos

03-18-2010, 06:15 PM

Did you try using Spinning Darkness in the board? I placed it in mine and it has vastly improved that match.

No, I played just preboard games, but spinning darkness really looks good for this matchup.
How many copies do you run in the side - 3?
Would you swap them for the faerie macabres?

Overall I think I need to test more , and also other common matchups like tempothresh (which seems very good) and dredge.
What gy hate would you advice to run?
Could planar void be of use?

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-18-2010, 07:06 PM

Hollywood, would Contamination be any good in this deck's sideboard? I could potentially see it in the Tsabo's Web slot (although if that's supposed to just be dedicated hate against 43lands, then it might not be a good replacement.)

Anyhow, this deck looks fun as all f*ck... Sort of similar to some of the ideas I was kicking around when Persecutor was spoiled, but more streamlined than anything I came up with. I really want to test it.

Michael Keller

03-18-2010, 07:38 PM

No, I played just preboard games, but spinning darkness really looks good for this matchup.
How many copies do you run in the side - 3?
Would you swap them for the faerie macabres?

Overall I think I need to test more , and also other common matchups like tempothresh (which seems very good) and dredge.
What gy hate would you advice to run?
Could planar void be of use?

Planar Void is bad because it knocks off your Cabal Therapies and nullifies your Skeletal Scrying. That is actually my board plan; siding out Macabre games two and three for Spinning Darkness. It has been sensational.

Threshold is disgustingly easy. I tested this match to the bone (Canadian and G/u/w). They only really run eight to nine creatures, and they bank on the fact you can't target Nimble Mongoose. You run Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper, which is very good in that scenario. Tarmogoyf dies to everything you play. Stifle and Wasteland are effectively negligent in the match. Overall, very favorable.

@Duke: 43 Lands is a pretty bad match for this deck if you can't stop an opponent on the draw with cards like Manabond. Faerie Macabre becomes relevant, but just being able to simplify all that by shutting down their offense with a two-cost artifact (that even replaces itself) is very effective. Contamination is just a win more card that wants to be good but really isn't. There are far more effective choices that can be considered in the sideboard.

AcidFiend

03-18-2010, 08:45 PM

Also, the number of decks using hymn to success has dwindled sharply in the past 6 months because it's just not getting there like it used to. Most of those results on deckcheck are years old and the format has sped up tremendously.

17 pages includes decks from 2004 to 2010. Thats 6 years, on average you'd expect nearly 3 pages per year. Theres nearly 3 pages that cover the last 6 months however. Even if there was a big spike somewhere in the middle, thus leading to your 'dwindled sharply', its use is still above total average. 31 Top 8's in 2010 alone seems at least decent enough to suggest it is fact still 'getting there'.

Those are very rough numbers I know; feel free to share the data you based your statement on. I do like the fact Hollywood has been testing it at least in the SB. This deck is so focused on creature destruction maybe it could prove useful in the Control/Combo matchups.

Michael Keller

03-18-2010, 09:59 PM

Okay, here is an updated version of the list with some explanations:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 2 [CS] Soul Spike
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tsabo's Web
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

A few things:

1.) I'm liking the mana base with the addition of the two Bogs. They have been critical in testing and I've managed to flip those off Dark Confidant several times (which has subsequently won me those games). Two seems to be the perfect fit so far.

2.) I removed a Faerie Macabre from the main and set it at two (paired with the two Bogs). These are both uncounterable surprise game-one winners. 2-2 seems to be the best option here as they have rounded out nicely in testing.

3.) I upped the Deathmark count back up to three. I just can't say enough about this card in so many match-ups. After going to two, I just always wanted that one more. It works out nicely at the moment and I haven't had any problems with it.

4.) I mentioned I wanted to try and add another Scrying to the deck. You may also notice I cut a Bitterblossom as well. Bitterblossom is great, but I think three is the right number here because it's not too many when it isn't necessary, and it is just right when you need it most. I rounded it out by going 3-1 (Blossom-Scrying).

5.) Spinning Darkness has been great. It has helped me immensely in the Zoo matchup and is an amazing top-deck, just like Scrying. I'm trying to improve the deck's late draws by adding cards like this to help improve the match. It's so multilateral.

6.) Four Hymn to Tourach I've really enjoyed having in the sideboard. Against Storm combo on the play game two, getting one of these off early can really do some damage if you hit the right cards. Storm combo decks can be resilient, but this is one of the best cards you can honestly get against them. You have to slow them down, and this seems to do the trick.

7.) I run Soul Spike in the combo match to catch an opponent off-guard with Ad Nauseum and even give me some life. This is actually been a [i]very effective attempt as I actually ended up killing someone in testing when they Ad Nauseum'd down to three.

8.) I ended up removing one Disk; it works really well, but I'm bringing in Hymns on the play game two and two Disk seems just fine to work with as I need to wait a little bit to get it going. Aside from that, it works out very well.

Hope this helps.

Chubu!

03-18-2010, 11:01 PM

@ Hollywood

I've been testing several builds, including your OP build, since my post yesterday. Still deciding on what feels best to me. Each change I make seems to improve certain MUs while hurting others. I'll go into this in more detail after I play some more games with each build. I'm messing with SoFI at the moment, although I haven't played enough games with it to say anything concrete, as of yet. The advantages of SoFI are obvious. The drawbacks I would like to hear about from you, as I imagine you've given the card some thought as you build the deck.

Finally, is "Death & Blaxes" funny to anyone else but me? The deck does carry the common theme of little critters that do double duty as hate/CA. (Plus a big boy with a big black tetanus-ridden sword.) The deck does some cool tricks, albeit not quite as many as D&T. Just saying.

markbris

03-19-2010, 01:39 PM

I'm thinking about building this deck, one thing thats nice is it has to be one of the cheapest if not the cheapest deck I've seen in legacy that also has the chance to be pretty competitive.. Persecutor, Blossom, Confidant, Jittes, Wastelands are expensive but not very much so and everything else is so cheap.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-20-2010, 04:21 AM

Has Sygg, River Cutthroat been mentioned as a possible additional source of card-draw? It doesn't seem like three damage to the opponent's dome a turn would be living too much of a pipe dream for this deck, considering all the evasive creatures.

Also, as much as one reason that I like this deck is that it's mono-colored, I feel like whoever made the suggestion to splash white might be on to something. Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are a pretty boss type of removal package. I mean, Innocent Blood and Deathmark are good, but I think you should at least test Swords/ Vindicate in these slots. I know Vindicate costs three mana, compared to Deathmark's one, but the added flexibility you get for the extra two mana is pretty freakin' incredible. I'm not saying necessarily that the damage to the mana base is going to be negligible compared to the gains from trying out the white splash, but I think it should be tested if it hasn't already been.

eq.firemind

03-20-2010, 04:28 AM

I think white cards that could be good in this deck are Swords to Plowshares and Stoneforge Mystic.
Vindicate seems to be too expensive and 3-costed slot already contains too much cards.

@ Spinning Darkness:
Looks very promissing against Zoo, Merfolks and Goblins, but what to side out? The problem is that flipping it off Dark Confidant seems to be awful against aggro...

Also, the deck is very flavorfull. Evil wizards, demons, vampires and vile spells are just everywhere in the deck. Truly Forces of Evil =)

badjuju

03-20-2010, 04:48 AM

Also, as much as one reason that I like this deck is that it's mono-colored, I feel like whoever made the suggestion to splash white might be on to something. Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are a pretty boss type of removal package. I mean, Innocent Blood and Deathmark are good, but I think you should at least test Swords/ Vindicate in these slots. I know Vindicate costs three mana, compared to Deathmark's one, but the added flexibility you get for the extra two mana is pretty freakin' incredible. I'm not saying necessarily that the damage to the mana base is going to be negligible compared to the gains from trying out the white splash, but I think it should be tested if it hasn't already been.

Adding more removal is NOT what the deck needs, we have plenty of that already. What do you need to kill with Swords that you can't kill with something else? Almost every relevant creature in the format can be handled with what the deck already offers. If people still want to harp on the gobbos / elves / merfolk or whatever matchup, you can always switch Deathmark to Smother if you actually expect a large number of said decks. I think you're missing the point of Innocent Blood - it serves as an outlet for Abyssal Persecutor. And while we're on that subject, Abyssal Persecutor out-muscles virtually all of the creatures in this format, even its older brother Tombstalker. It is an extremely efficient threat.

You can make the argument for Vindicate, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary that you have answers for artifacts / enchantments. It's true that cards like Elephant Grass and an opposing Jitte are problematic, but it's just something that this archetype will have to deal with. Once again, the reason I am opposing this is becase adding a color will open you up to all sorts of problems related to running nonbasics.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-20-2010, 05:30 AM

Adding more removal is NOT what the deck needs, we have plenty of that already... I think you're missing the point of Innocent Blood - it serves as an outlet for Abyssal Persecutor. And while we're on that subject, Abyssal Persecutor out-muscles virtually all of the creatures in this format, even its older brother Tombstalker. It is an extremely efficient threat.

You can make the argument for Vindicate, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary that you have answers for artifacts / enchantments. It's true that cards like Elephant Grass and an opposing Jitte are problematic, but it's just something that this archetype will have to deal with. Once again, the reason I am opposing this is becase adding a color will open you up to all sorts of problems related to running nonbasics.

I'm not suggesting adding more removal, I'm suggesting that by using a little bit of white, this deck could run spell-based removal that is much more flexible than what it runs at the moment. Frankly, I don't know whether or not it would be worth it, but I'm just suggesting that it might warrant a little bit of testing.

Also, I'm not missing the point on Innocent Blood, but StP kills your own Persecutor just as well as Blood does.

It would make me happy if the mono black version of this deck is the best version and it doesn't need a splash. But from what I can tell, no one seems to have tried it out. I'm just saying I think the folks who are testing this might want to just try out a very moderate white splash and provide some feedback. If I could figure out how to make MWS work on my Mac, I'd do it myself, but I digress.

jrsthethird

03-20-2010, 10:08 AM

If I could figure out how to make MWS work on my Mac, I'd do it myself, but I digress.

This guy wrote about it in his blog. Give it a try, worked for me:

http://richshay.com/posts/70

Mystical_Jackass

03-20-2010, 04:31 PM

@ Spinning Darkness:
Looks very promissing against Zoo, Merfolks and Goblins, but what to side out? The problem is that flipping it off Dark Confidant seems to be awful against aggro...

Yea, that was what I was wondering too. That's almost as bad as eating a Tombstalk @.@ Otherwise, I can't see boarding out Confidants, it's like the deck MvP..

In my Mono Black Stax deck, I run Dystopia's against Zoo... you take a small life hit, but you can completely wipe out their board position risking a good ~3-6 life. I found, as long as you stay above ~7 life you're safe to run away with the win.

Michael Keller

03-21-2010, 11:11 AM

The chances of you flipping a Spinning Darkness off a Dark Confidant are very low. You run three. And it isn't as bad as hitting a Tombstalker. And what it can do is provide you life back and kill a creature immediately in the *remote* instance you actually do flip it. So, in that respect, it's actually quite effective.

The side-out strategy would depend on what you're playing against. Against Zoo, I'd try this:

-4 Dark Confidant
-3 Bitterblossom
-2 Faerie Macabre

+4 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Spinning Darkness
+2 Soul Spike

As the early game permits, you will obviously have more spells in the graveyard after nuking all their threats or making them discard. Then, Spinning Darkness gets that good early on.

Soul Spike could even be (and I'm trying it out, which so far has been working great) boarded in to combat mid-game threats after you've destroyed everything else in your path. It can even serve as a finisher in some circumstances. Getting to seven lands can happen when you turn in and turn out destroy everything they play. I originally intended to reserve this for the combo matchup, but with Hymn to Tourach, the other discard, removal, etc., Soul Spike can be a great mid to late game top-deck when you need it most. Try it out a little and see how it works.

The trick against Zoo is to deplete them of all their dumped resources by having an answer for everything they have. When this happens, you can just go to town with creatures. By siding out D.C. and B.B., we're negating some life loss on our part, which is good. Granted, we're not getting more cards, but there really isn't anything D.C. or B.B. tokens can kill when blocking or attacking into against Zoo anyways. That's fine, because that almost offsets with the removal we play.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-21-2010, 02:15 PM

Michael Keller

03-22-2010, 09:40 AM

-**Some cards that seem like they could potentially be good in the sideboard: Dystopia, Perish, Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Leyline of the Void...

Just wondering if any of these have been considered. Dystopia and Perish might not be necessary in a deck that plays Deathmark in the main, but Dystopia especially seems like it could be juicy against Zoo.

Extirpate seems especially good against Reanimator and any Loam-based decks. Sadistic Sacrament seems good against most Combo in general, as backup to our discard spells. Also, it seems good against random Control archetypes.

Leyline just has wide uses against the field, but I'm not sure if it would be better than Relic.

-**Also, what about my idea of Sygg, River Cutthroat? Would this dude potentially be better than the single copy of Skeletal Scrying, or would he be win-more?

Any ideas?

-**Also, @Hollywood, regarding the Zoo sideboarding plan:

Hymn to Tourach doesn't seem all that good against them, IMHO. Also, I can see taking out Dark Confidant, but I think Bitterblossom's ability to infinitely chump-block their dudes could be pretty solid in this match-up. It puts pressure on you to either find some life-gain or establish a clock, but I think -1 life a turn is pretty fair for something that says "now you have to overcommit to the board to touch me." Also, it helps you establish a clock on its own once you start to accumulate extra Faerie tokens.

EDIT: I would probably take out Jitte over Bitterblossom against Zoo, because they have enough point removal to make equipping Jitte a pain in your ass. And all the creatures in this deck besides Persecutor are gonna die to any burn spell.

Dystopia is a card I have been heavily considering running in the sideboard against many other archetypes as well (Enchantress, etc.). Perish, while it is a great card, just plays out as overkill with the removal the deck plays. The sideboard is geared towards improving the combo matchup.

As far as Exirpate goes, I have considered running it in the sideboard as an alternative for Relic of Progentius. I like the fact is has split-second, but on the other hand, it does not hit the entire graveyard, which is key in some matches against cards building momentum off cards in the graveyard anyways (Knight of the Reliquary, Ichorid, etc.). With Faerie Macabres being able to nail cards early and the Bogs there to cleanup, Extirpate really isn't what I'd rather play.

Leyline is only good in your opening draw and with Dark Confidant in play it is the ultimate in bad top-decks. It's not just the fact you're losing four life, but you're probably incapable of casting it thereafter. It's just not worth it.

With Spinning Darkness and even Soul Spike, you are able to gain that life you need and knock off their creatures at the same time. I wouldn't take out those Jitte's against Zoo; no how, no way. They are ridiculously effective and are in fact the best card you can legitimately have online against Zoo. Jitte also knock off other Jitte's; a very effective play in some circumstances.

Skeletal Scrying is a supplement mid to late game when you are low on cards. Once you have depleted your removal or other spells, you are able to replensih your hand at instant speed. I've found it to be a very nice addition and have always love drawing into it.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-22-2010, 04:30 PM

Dystopia is a card I have been heavily considering running in the sideboard against many other archetypes as well (Enchantress, etc.). Perish, while it is a great card, just plays out as overkill with the removal the deck plays. The sideboard is geared towards improving the combo matchup.

As far as Exirpate goes, I have considered running it in the sideboard as an alternative for Relic of Progentius. I like the fact is has split-second, but on the other hand, it does not hit the entire graveyard, which is key in some matches against cards building momentum off cards in the graveyard anyways (Knight of the Reliquary, Ichorid, etc.). With Faerie Macabres being able to nail cards early and the Bogs there to cleanup, Extirpate really isn't what I'd rather play.

Leyline is only good in your opening draw and with Dark Confidant in play it is the ultimate in bad top-decks. It's not just the fact you're losing four life, but you're probably incapable of casting it thereafter. It's just not worth it.

With Spinning Darkness and even Soul Spike, you are able to gain that life you need and knock off their creatures at the same time. I wouldn't take out those Jitte's against Zoo; no how, no way. They are ridiculously effective and are in fact the best card you can legitimately have online against Zoo. Jitte also knock off other Jitte's; a very effective play in some circumstances.

Skeletal Scrying is a supplement mid to late game when you are low on cards. Once you have depleted your removal or other spells, you are able to replensih your hand at instant speed. I've found it to be a very nice addition and have always love drawing into it.

You make some points I can agree with.

I think Sadistic Sacrament is good enough that you should consider it though. Combo and Control decks, as a whole, tend to be very light on win conditions. Against ANT, for example, you take away their Tendrils and their engine cards (Ill-Gotten Gains or whatever), and how exactly are they supposed to win after that? Playing against Landstill? Take away all but one Mishra's Factory, or take their Decree of Justices and whatnot. I think it's pretty obvious what you take against Belcher. These are all just random examples. My point is, it seems like T1 discard spell, T2 discard spell or threat, T3 Sadistic Sacrament would be a pretty dope sequence of plays against either combo or control. Yes, it costs three mana, and combo decks can sometimes win before that, but it's not like you're playing it without other discard spells to back it up.

As far as taking out Jitte against Zoo... If you really tend to get it equipped and online in this matchup, then by all means leave it in. But my guess about how it would turn out would be, "In response to your equip- Path/ Bolt/ Helix/ Fireblast/ etc."

Michael Keller

03-22-2010, 04:33 PM

You make some points I can agree with.

I think Sadistic Sacrament is good enough that you should consider it though. Combo and Control decks, as a whole, tend to be very light on win conditions. Against ANT, for example, you take away their Tendrils and their engine cards (Ill-Gotten Gains or whatever), and how exactly are they supposed to win after that? Playing against Landstill? Take away all but one Mishra's Factory, or take their Decree of Justices and whatnot. I think it's pretty obvious what you take against Belcher. These are all just random examples. My point is, it seems like T1 discard spell, T2 discard spell or threat, T3 Sadistic Sacrament would be a pretty dope sequence of plays against either combo or control. Yes, it costs three mana, and combo decks can sometimes win before that, but it's not like you're playing it without other discard spells to back it up.

As far as taking out Jitte against Zoo... If you really tend to get it equipped and online in this matchup, then by all means leave it in. But my guess about how it would turn out would be, "In response to your equip- Path/ Bolt/ Helix/ Fireblast/ etc."

And what this does is it inherently forces my opponent to conserve their burn and spot removal for my creatures now, instead of me. That is exactly what I would want to have happen; to force my opponent to expend burn spells on something that isn't me.

makochman

03-22-2010, 05:49 PM

You make some points I can agree with.

I think Sadistic Sacrament is good enough that you should consider it though. Combo and Control decks, as a whole, tend to be very light on win conditions. Against ANT, for example, you take away their Tendrils and their engine cards (Ill-Gotten Gains or whatever), and how exactly are they supposed to win after that? Playing against Landstill? Take away all but one Mishra's Factory, or take their Decree of Justices and whatnot. I think it's pretty obvious what you take against Belcher. These are all just random examples. My point is, it seems like T1 discard spell, T2 discard spell or threat, T3 Sadistic Sacrament would be a pretty dope sequence of plays against either combo or control. Yes, it costs three mana, and combo decks can sometimes win before that, but it's not like you're playing it without other discard spells to back it up.

Without Dark Ritual, Sadistic Sacrament loses a lot of its appeal, though. As far as I know it's mainly used in the SB by ANT decks, which have a lot of acceleration.
Also with those Bojuka Bogs and Wastelands it seems quite likely you won't always have BBB on turn 3.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-22-2010, 06:16 PM

And what this does is it inherently forces my opponent to conserve their burn and spot removal for my creatures now, instead of me. That is exactly what I would want to have happen; to force my opponent to expend burn spells on something that isn't me.

Ironically, Bitterblossom tokens are the only creatures in this deck which I would consider them getting burned out in response to an equip as being a favorable exchange (maybe also Gatekeeper, since it would usually imply that he already killed one of their creatures). And you seem pretty set that you're siding out Blossom vs Zoo...

The problem with the strategy of using Jitte to draw out their burn spells to your creatures, as I see it, is that you will be trading two-to-three mana creatures (plus the :2: you spend to equip), for their one-mana removal spells. So let's say you get Nighthawk killed by a Bolt after you try to equip. This is essentially a one-for-one trade, because they lose one card (Bolt) and you lose one (Hawk). But the difference is, they spent :r: plus one card, and you spent :3::b::b: (cast Hawk + equip) plus one card on that play. You saved yourself three damage in the short run, but you still don't have any counters on Jitte yet, and you just got out-tempo'ed like a muffucka on that play. (This is basically the same argument that everyone uses to explain why Jitte is bad against Zoo if you're playing Merfolk. If you want to see it reiterated by many other people, just check that thread's history.)

Yes, Jitte kills opposing Jitte, and yes, it's going to be the nuts against Zoo if you can get some counters on it. But if you really want to use Jitte to get them to waste burn on insignificant creatures, keep Bitterblossom in, because Faerie tokens are the ideal thing that you could possibly get them to spend a Lightning Bolt on. Not to mention that no creatures in Zoo fly, so if you do get a succesfully equipped Faerie token, it's swinging to the dome every turn until they get rid of it.

EDIT: 100th post. It's a celebration, bitches.

Michael Keller

03-23-2010, 12:34 PM

Without Dark Ritual, Sadistic Sacrament loses a lot of its appeal, though. As far as I know it's mainly used in the SB by ANT decks, which have a lot of acceleration.
Also with those Bojuka Bogs and Wastelands it seems quite likely you won't always have BBB on turn 3.

I've been trying to reconfigure the mana base to allow that third Faerie Mcabre back in the main. I just always keep wanting to have him in my opening draw, and he turns into a beater whenever you need him. The Bojuka Bogs are good, don't get me wrong, it's just that against decks like Reanimator it is far easier for them to go off with an EOT Mystical Tutor and nullifying the Bogs' effectiveness. But at the same time, I'm trading mana production for versatility, which is good and all, except I do want to have an acceptable amount of black mana.

I'm reworking that as we speak.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-24-2010, 01:16 AM

I think Volrath's Stronghold could be a good one-of. I know you're not trying to have too many non-basics, but your creatures are definitely good enough to exploit Stronghold, and its ability is pretty broken.

Chubu!

03-24-2010, 02:48 AM

@ Hollywood:
I am currently at 3 Faerie Macabre, 1 bog. Overall, I feel like Fae's ability is more useful in a wider variety of matchups than bog. Un-counterability and instant speed are clutch. I even keep #4 in the board. I was skeptical on the card at all, to begin with; now I'm totally sold. Very good call.

@ Duke
Volrath's Stronghold is up in the air for me. It looks perfect - recur fallen duders, duders you sacked to therapy, McFaerie, etc... However, it is not always as useful as I'd like it to be. The cost often means tapping out, or close to it. In the early game, this is not too good a deal for us. We're focused on getting them into topdeck mode at that point in time. Mid to late game, it's not bad, but in testing I've found I'm usually on my way to winning by the time Stronghold becomes viable. Very rarely has it actually turned a losing situation into a win.

My current manabase:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Volrath's Stronghold
15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

If I cut the Strongholds, it's going to be for two basic swamps. Note that I'm not running wastes. If I run wastes, I'll go 4 waste, 17 swamp, 1 bog. 15 swamps, or other turn 1 sources of B that don't require a land (i.e., Ritual) seems like an absolute minimum to me. I have a hunch Hollywood's base, although possessing less "cool stuff potential," may be the more solid choice. Still, I will play more games with my current build, my possible cut of Stronghold, and Hollywood's build with wastes. I want to get a better feel for how valuable Stronghold may or may not be.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-24-2010, 03:40 AM

other turn 1 sources of B that don't require a land (i.e., Ritual)
-Chubu!

How do you figure that Dark Ritual is a first turn source of :b: that doesn't require a land?

Honestly I'm really not too crazy about Dark Ritual in this specific deck, I think it makes it less consistent overall, because it's pretty bad except for on your first or second turn. Ritual is good in decks that are trying to win as quick as possible. This deck is more looking to get to the mid-game and dominate.

As far as Volrath's Stronghold, I would probably never run more than one, because it's legendary and doesn't produce :b:. I think one copy could be good, but it might just be superfluous, I'm not entirely sure. Seems strong though.

Also, I'm in favor of the 3-1 split on Faerie Macabre/ Bojuka Bog. Instant speed and un-counter-ability are good, and being a 2/2 flier when grave hate is irrelevant is good. Meanwhile, coming into play tapped on the Bog kind of irks me, but it's a strong effect, so mise have one copy.

Hawdes

03-24-2010, 03:59 AM

As far as Volrath's Stronghold, I would probably never run more than one, because it's legendary and doesn't produce :b:. I think one copy could be good, but it might just be superfluous, I'm not entirely sure. Seems strong though.

Instead of changing the manabase and open yourself up to non-basic hate, you could aswell run Sword of Light and Shadow. It recurrs creatures from your yard aswell and netting you some life at the time. I think that equipping a BB token with the sword seems good enough, although this requires more mana (1 more mana to play and the added equipcost), but it gives you so much more for the mana investment.
Since the deck already runs x Jittes, you could easily replace one, or just add 1 SoLS in the mix. Equipping Vampire Nighthawk with this is good I've heard, even races some monsters like Progenitus.
It's just a thought, there's no testing behind this statement. It might be all wrong. But it's a way better "recurr" effect than Volrath's Stronghold imo.

Michael Keller

03-24-2010, 10:12 AM

Instead of changing the manabase and open yourself up to non-basic hate, you could aswell run Sword of Light and Shadow. It recurrs creatures from your yard aswell and netting you some life at the time. I think that equipping a BB token with the sword seems good enough, although this requires more mana (1 more mana to play and the added equipcost), but it gives you so much more for the mana investment.
Since the deck already runs x Jittes, you could easily replace one, or just add 1 SoLS in the mix. Equipping Vampire Nighthawk with this is good I've heard, even races some monsters like Progenitus.
It's just a thought, there's no testing behind this statement. It might be all wrong. But it's a way better "recurr" effect than Volrath's Stronghold imo.

Progenitus is the absolute least of your worries with Gatekeeper and Innocent Blood. Umezawa's Jitte give you the ability to gain life, power your creatures, and kill other creatures. Sword of Light and Shadow costs one more and is only effective the moment it hits an opponent. Jitte's ability can be used anytime, which is critical. You could not *easily* replace Jitte; it is far superior.

I've also been testing Nether Void in the combo match and it has generally been an auto-win in every circumstance (this against ANT and Solidarity). The main-deck and sideboard both are being tweaked; I'll have a list up later.

Chubu!

03-24-2010, 11:07 AM

How do you figure that Dark Ritual is a first turn source of that doesn't require a land?

I don't. I just don't iterate my thoughts too well at 3 in the morning. What I meant to say was that the manabase, as I'm currently running it, has only 15 ways (basic swamps) to generate B on turn one without having a land in play. Sorry for the confusion.

As for Stronghold as a 1-of, meh. I'm hesitant on 1-ofs in this deck, unless they're somewhat redundant. Skeletal Scrying, for example, I run as a 1-of, because it's my 5th source of card advantage after 4 Bobs. I will try cutting the Rituals for basic swamps and see how it feels. If I were going to run Wasteland and Stronghold, I guess I'd cut Scrying and run 1x Stronghold as the 23rd land. (I wouldn't do this. Scrying is great.)

I, too, have toyed with the idea of a sword in the deck. There's some logic behind it, especially SoFI. SoFI on Nighthawk is hot sauce, killing creatures, gaining life, drawing cards, making sweet love to your opponent's face, etc... However, I have tested a little bit, and it feels win-more. I want cards that will take me through to the midgame, not cards that will make me even more of a threat when I get there. Not that SoFI's all bad, I just prefer Scrying in the last open slot in the build. SoLS I tested a bit, as well, and I just wasn't getting the use out that I was out of SoFI. Remember that not all of our duders fly, and we can't always count on getting a non-flyer through for the dmg.

@ Hollywood
Without Ritual, how do you stall long enough to get Nether Void into play vs. combo? The combo match I most worry about is the Doomsday build of storm combo. They can go off from surprisingly low life, and kill us even with quite a bit of life. (I lost a match the other day where I had Nighthawk on the board, and life totals were 26 to 8, I believe.) Granted, in that match, I would have had time to land a Nether Void ftw, but I don't count on making it several turns in w/o a lucky Therapy nailing a few key cards in their hand, as happened that time. Not much of a gameplan, obviously. The player suggested Mindbreak Trap to me, as I didn't see a Pact in his build. Fair enough. On the other hand, Trap is a reactive card, and can thus be Duressed/Thoughtseized away before they go off. And a smart combo player will do such.

Michael Keller

03-24-2010, 11:39 AM

@ Hollywood
Without Ritual, how do you stall long enough to get Nether Void into play vs. combo? The combo match I most worry about is the Doomsday build of storm combo. They can go off from surprisingly low life, and kill us even with quite a bit of life. (I lost a match the other day where I had Nighthawk on the board, and life totals were 26 to 8, I believe.) Granted, in that match, I would have had time to land a Nether Void ftw, but I don't count on making it several turns in w/o a lucky Therapy nailing a few key cards in their hand, as happened that time. Not much of a gameplan, obviously. The player suggested Mindbreak Trap to me, as I didn't see a Pact in his build. Fair enough. On the other hand, Trap is a reactive card, and can thus be Duressed/Thoughtseized away before they go off. And a smart combo player will do such.

You run Cabal Therapy and Duress. Game two, considering you're on the play, you also run Hymn to Tourach. You bury their hand and drop a Void. That's how you do it.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-24-2010, 03:22 PM

Nether Void? Cool idea... but damn, so much for "budget-friendly"! Do you think Sphere of Resistance/ Thorn of Amethyst might be decent alternatives for those of us clutching our wallets these days?

Michael Keller

03-24-2010, 05:43 PM

Vacrix

03-24-2010, 07:14 PM

You run Cabal Therapy and Duress. Game two, considering you're on the play, you also run Hymn to Tourach. You bury their hand and drop a Void. That's how you do it.

Do you also board in Hymn against control?

makochman

03-24-2010, 07:19 PM

In general, this deck runs more lands to get around Nether Void, which is almost complete destruction against ANT if it resolves. The point is, decks like these in general have a disadvantage against combo for the inherent lack of counter-magic. That's okay though, because we run black; a color dead-set on destroying players' hands. It really is one of the best cards you can use against ANT and Storm combo in general.

Is Nether Void really that good against ANT? It hits play on turn 5-6. Also I would imagine ANT could tutor for Chain of Vapor or other bounce once they have 4 mana, then bounce back Nether Void and combo out.

IMHO if combo has a strong presence in your metagame, then more disruption, Dark Ritual and SB Sadistic Sacrament might be necessary. It is true that Dark Ritual is card disadvantage, but it does allow you to power out Bob or Bitterblossom turn 1,which is a very strong play, and makes you gain card advantage faster.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-24-2010, 09:51 PM

This might be a jank-ass suggestion, but would Dash Hopes be any good in the combo match-ups? It seems decent against ANT at least, since you can use it aggressively to make them more likely to whiff on Ad Nauseam.

I'm not so sure about Dash Hopes, but it seems like if there ever was a deck that card might be good in, this is probably it. I'd be curious to hear y'all's evaluations.

EDIT: In retrospect: This probably is a jank-ass suggestion. But it does bear mentioning that Dash Hopes fulfills a very comparable function to Soul Spike against combo. It doesn't work as creature removal in other match-ups, but Soul Spike is such shitty creature removal that I think this is a negligible downside. Also, Dash Hopes plays better with Dark Confidant and causes you less card disadvantage. The downside of Dash Hopes is that it's worse against opposing Orim's Chant and Thoughtseize, because if you use it to counter their protection spell, they will likely just let it get countered and hold onto their 5 life.

I think that Dash Hopes is comparable enough to Soul Spike to at least bear mentioning though. I feel like there are pro's and con's to either one.

Michael Keller

03-24-2010, 09:55 PM

Is Nether Void really that good against ANT? It hits play on turn 5-6. Also I would imagine ANT could tutor for Chain of Vapor or other bounce once they have 4 mana, then bounce back Nether Void and combo out.

IMHO if combo has a strong presence in your metagame, then more disruption, Dark Ritual and SB Sadistic Sacrament might be necessary. It is true that Dark Ritual is card disadvantage, but it does allow you to power out Bob or Bitterblossom turn 1,which is a very strong play, and makes you gain card advantage faster.

The points you bring up have already been addressed by other people in previous posts and we've already been over (most of) this.

Nether Void is that good against ANT. It hits play on turn four, and even if the ANT player Mystical Tutors for Chain of Vapor, they will have to do it in response to me playing it. Obviously they could do that, but what you are giving is a scenario for the combo player under these circumstances and ignoring the fact that their mana base is very light. With discard and Wasteland, it would be near impossible for them to recover from that card once it resolves. And even if they do that, I can still Soul Spike them out (now that Nether Void has been unprecedentedly bounced). Most ANT players give it up at four or three life, thus giving me yet another opportunity of killing them in response to an Orim's Chant with fifteen cards in their hands.

This archetype has difficulty against combo, and unlike Trinisphere, Nether Void is a crushing card once it resolves because it doesn't make everything cost at least three, it makes everything cost three more. That's the difference. It isn't that hard to get to four mana with this deck.

Dark Ritual - again - is not effective in this deck. What it does is powers out a turn one play that would open myself up for removal, Daze, etc. Then, once my hand is depleted, I get hammered and cannot recover. Dark Ritual is a good card, but it is no good in a deck that utilizes each of the first three turns in succession to:

1.) Remove threats.
2.) Discard spells.
3.) Establish threats.

This three-pronged approach is the cornerstone of this deck-building scheme. By dumping your hand turn one, you are hoping (and praying) your opponent can't subsequently answer early enough to nullify what you've done. It's just...not...worth it. I will not eat it to Spell Snare or Daze unless it is a one-for-one trade-off and not a two-for-one; that's it. If I have discard, I'll use it first. But under no circumstances am I in a hurry to dump my hand.

Here is my updated list for reference:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
4 [US] Duress
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tsabo's Web
SB: 2 [CS] Soul Spike

In essence, I've done more work on the sideboard than anything else. I'm looking to work the Hymn to Tourachs back in the board, but I'm in the process of shuffling them around. This is where it currently stands.

I've had absolutely [i]zero problems with turn one Chalice or Trinisphere. I've been able to bide my time through each turn and knock off creatures with Gatekeeper or lands with Wasteland. I just got done crushing Dragon Stompy, an emphatic 2-0. I also tried against Armageddon Stax, winning 2-0.

Nether Void has been an effective, sufficient solution against combo. This is where Hymn comes back into the mix. It buys me time to get it online so I can shut an opponent down. I'm not sure how to rework the board just yet, but I'm leaning towards removing the Spikes and replacing them with potentially two Hymns to round out the discard package nicely.

markbris

03-24-2010, 10:49 PM

I like your idea of removing the soul spikes for hymn to tourach. Soul spikes seem like such a reactive solution and it seems like although it could help you against ANT occasionally, hymn will always help you against ANT. just my two cents. You are the one testing obv.

Michael Keller

03-24-2010, 11:31 PM

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4881/capturest.jpg

This was a match (against Team America) I ended up winning two games to one. The only reason I dropped game one was that I kept an inept one-lander and ended up paying for it. Games two and three were sound wins. I'm still trying to decide whether or not Bitterblossom is good enough in the aggro match. It plays well so far, and typically draws a counter early because of how fast it can get out of hand.

Chubu!

03-24-2010, 11:53 PM

Dark Ritual - again - is not effective in this deck.

You're right. I realize now, after testing without, that the deck benefits more from the solidity of basics than the occasional explosiveness of a Dark Ritual. I played a very small (24 or so ppl) tourney tonight and came in 1st. I believe it was first, the final standings I never actually saw. My record was 4-0 matches, 8-1 games. My loss came game 1 to Kobolds combo, 'cuz I had no idea what the hell the deck even was. Needless to say, I learned quick. My match wins were (in order): Kobolds, Rats, (yes, rats.) 'Folk, and Pox. What I feel was most important to mention, though, is ZERO MULLIGANS. I highly doubt that this would have been the case were I running rituals instead of extra basics. Never doubt the solid benefits of extensive shuffling and ample lands. Nighthawk, Bob, and Cabal Therapy were MVPs. I saw Bitterblossom three times, never cast it. I'm content with it in the board.

My current list:
19 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Skeletal Scrying

3 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Bitterblossom
3 Soul Spike
1 Faerie Macabre

markbris

03-25-2010, 10:46 AM

I tested a match against solidarity on mws. First game he had it ez as I had very little discard and clock isnt near quick enough. Second game I got some discard and was able to drop a nether void for the game. Third game I had two duresses and a hymn but couldn't find a nether void and my clock was too slow cuz i couldnt get to four lands for persecutor. I like nether void alot though and the discard is much more effective I bet against ANT and belcher than solidarity so I like the plan.

mossivo1986

03-25-2010, 08:44 PM

hollywood,sorry about today. I get disconnected. My stupid internet. If you want to hook up and test that matchup id be down. Im pretty sure its in your favor but my theory in testing has been working out well for me. Anyways ball is in your court. ttyl

jrsthethird

03-25-2010, 10:19 PM

So I'm not sure where this belongs, if it deserves it's own thread or not. If I do well with it maybe it's worth a different topic with a primer but right now I'll just post it in here.

It's a version of this deck that splashes white for Stoneforge Mystic. It plays with a lot of the same principles (card advantage with lots of hand/board removal and potent threats). The name is a play on the main splash card and the name of the OP deck, but I think it's ironic since the deck's namesake has no relationship to the deck at all.

Mystic Gate by Joe Stempo

22 Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
8 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

18 Spells
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Innocent Blood
3 Duress

Sideboard
4 Disenchant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Path to Exile

What do you guys think?

A couple differences between this and the mono-B deck:

Bitterblossom - MVP here. If this sticks I win 80% of the time. With 4 Mystics I can grab an equipment to stick on a Faerie token and swing, and each one is game-breaking.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - solid creature, but I'm afraid that getting a consistent BBB in one game is a little tough. This plus the lack of evasion when he hits makes him only a 2 of. I tried Serra Avenger in this slot previously but the WW ended up being a major inconvenience. I don't want to run many more 3-drops because of Bob and the fact that my mana is tight as it is, with all the equips.

grahf

03-26-2010, 12:18 AM

Seems like Stoneforge Mystic is the new "it girl" of Legacy, she's popping up everywhere. With 8 shuffle effects, Divining Top suddenly looks worth a look to manage Confidant's lifeloss.

Michael Keller

03-26-2010, 12:21 AM

With cards that require triple black like Gatekeeper, you can't ideally run two colors (not to mention with Wasteland) and open yourself to Stifle, Moon, and Waste effects and hope to get that online. I just don't like white in this deck personally; I think it takes away from what the deck is really trying to do and that's evading typical, streamlined hate purposefully with basics and simple removal to render cards in an opponent's deck useless. If that is a route you want to go, by all means. Personally, I don't see a need for a white splash at all.

Right now, my sideboard has been reconfigured to fit four Hymn to Tourach. I took out the Web's as they were redundant with Relic and other graveyard removal.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

This has been a major improvement in the combo matchup, which seemed to be a cavity for the deck to begin with. This "root canal" of sorts allows the deck to punish an opponent's hand, and set them up against Nether Void or Persecutor. I also just recently defeated Enchantress, two games to one with this updated sideboard (which was a relatively difficult match to begin with). That problem appears to be solved in testing.

I also should mention I played against ANT and won the match, two games to one. I ended up doing enough damage to setup Nether Void for the win. My opponent kept a one-lander with a Top, and he didn't see it coming.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-26-2010, 02:18 AM

Right now, my sideboard has been reconfigured to fit four Hymn to Tourach. I took out the Web's as they were redundant with Relic and other graveyard removal.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

This has been a major improvement in the combo matchup, which seemed to be a cavity for the deck to begin with. This "root canal" of sorts allows the deck to punish an opponent's hand, and set them up against Nether Void or Persecutor. I also just recently defeated Enchantress, two games to one with this updated sideboard (which was a relatively difficult match to begin with). That problem appears to be solved in testing.

I also should mention I played against ANT and won the match, two games to one. I ended up doing enough damage to setup Nether Void for the win. My opponent kept a one-lander with a Top, and he didn't see it coming.

So as far as the combo matchup, do you think Sadistic Sacrament would be a semi-viable alternative to Nether Void? Or should I just accept some combo losses if I can't get Voids? I'm toying with the idea of buying Persecutors and Bitterblossoms so I can make this deck, and honestly besides the fact that it seems fun to play, another thing that's attractive is that those would be all the money cards I'd have to buy to put it together. As cool as it would be to own 3 Nether Voids, I don't think I can justify the expense IRL right now.

jrsthethird

03-26-2010, 02:35 AM

Seems like Stoneforge Mystic is the new "it girl" of Legacy, she's popping up everywhere. With 8 shuffle effects, Divining Top suddenly looks worth a look to manage Confidant's lifeloss.

What would you propose to take out for Top? I think I had a couple in with a slightly different build but now I wouldn't know what to remove since I'm really digging the deck as it is. My problem with Top is that it doesn't do anything on its own right away and the deck already requires a lot of mana to work.

With cards that require triple black like Gatekeeper, you can't ideally run two colors (not to mention with Wasteland) and open yourself to Stifle, Moon, and Waste effects and hope to get that online. I just don't like white in this deck personally; I think it takes away from what the deck is really trying to do and that's evading typical, streamlined hate purposefully with basics and simple removal to render cards in an opponent's deck useless. If that is a route you want to go, by all means. Personally, I don't see a need for a white splash at all.

I originally didn't play Gatekeeper since he needs BBB. What do you think of Gerrard's Verdict in that spot instead? Or Tidehollow Sculler?

I think the white plays great; I admit the focus is slightly different but most of the deck plays the same. Increased vulnerability is a trade-off for being able to tutor up equipment and run the best removal spell in the format. I think the sideboard is a little more useful due to the ability to play Disenchant and Canonist. I understand how you feel though, but if you have any suggestions for me (short of dropping W of course) I would appreciate it.

eq.firemind

03-26-2010, 07:23 AM

So as far as the combo matchup, do you think Sadistic Sacrament would be a semi-viable alternative to Nether Void? Or should I just accept some combo losses if I can't get Voids? I'm toying with the idea of buying Persecutors and Bitterblossoms so I can make this deck, and honestly besides the fact that it seems fun to play, another thing that's attractive is that those would be all the money cards I'd have to buy to put it together. As cool as it would be to own 3 Nether Voids, I don't think I can justify the expense IRL right now.
I'm very interested in this question too...
What combo decks are in your meta? If there are only stock ANTs that run 1-2 Tendrils as a wincon and no backup plan, resolved Sacrament is game.
If it's TES or Belcher, than maybe you should try Trinisphere in that slot.

Michael Keller

03-26-2010, 10:51 AM

I'm very interested in this question too...
What combo decks are in your meta? If there are only stock ANTs that run 1-2 Tendrils as a wincon and no backup plan, resolved Sacrament is game.
If it's TES or Belcher, than maybe you should try Trinisphere in that slot.

Sadistic Sacrament is a great choice in the sideboard. It would be worth considering in the combo match, but Nether Void also offers you help against decks that run light mana-bases, like Thresh (which should be almost an auto-win for you anyways). For all intents and purposes, you could actually run [2x] Nether Void and [2x] Sadistic Sacrament. This would give you a nice balance of removal and protection.

Chubu!

03-26-2010, 10:52 AM

@jrsthethird:

With a white splash, you can probably run Diabolic Edict as your edict effect. It's instant speed, and can still target yourself to get Gatekeeper off the board. Your curve will still be the same as the original deck, as well, considering StP is now your 1-drop removal. (And a damn fine one, at that.) Also, you can probably get away with dropping down to 2 jittes, as you are running Mystic. This is up to you, though. It's nice to have the reassurance of that third jitte, when there's pridemages, predators, grips, jittes, Duress, etc... across the board. Ultimately, the white splash wants the deck to be something different, in my opinion. It's totally viable, just a different deck. I'm with Hollywood on the "streamlining" train of thought. Part of what makes this deck run is its simplicity. Basic lands and one-color construction are keys to said simplicity.

Having said that, I have toyed with the white splash a little bit, without ever considering Stoneforge Mystic as a viable creature to include. How stupid of me. I always wanted to go a more tempo-ish route, i.e. Pikula, with a white splash. I'm intrigued. Maybe start a new thread?

jrsthethird

03-26-2010, 11:25 AM

Yeah I'll probably start a new thread once I have time to write a small primer. I only run 2 Jittes, I have 2 Swords as well for utility equipment (I've won a ton of games with a Faerie carrying SoFaI). I like Innocent Blood over Edict because it still gives me an answer to Lackey/Heirarch.

eq.firemind

03-26-2010, 02:01 PM

Enchantress runs something about Words of War and 1-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne. Sacrament hits them all.
Just saying...

makochman

03-26-2010, 02:53 PM

Here is my updated list for reference:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
4 [US] Duress
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IN] Tsabo's Web
SB: 2 [CS] Soul Spike

I've got a few more questions...

I noticed that you dropped Skeletal Scrying. I'm a bit surprised because I thought this doubled as Tarmogoyf hate in this deck. Between Bojuka Bog, Faerie Macabre and Skeletal Scrying it must have been easy to keep both graveyards empty. Was it just redundant? Or did the life loss become problematic?

I understand that Tsabo's Web is for the 38 Land matchup. Wouldn't Extirpate be better (and more generally useful) in that slot?

badjuju

03-26-2010, 02:59 PM

I've had similar experiences to Chubu!.

I playtested this deck last weekend against Merfolk and Reanimator. Deathmark was kinda sucky and Faerie Macabre was amazing against Reanimator. I changed mark to Smother, just cause I was sick of it being dead g1 against folk. I figured, Smother pretty much kills everything that we need mark to kill. Even though it is a turn behind, I don't think that's enough of a drawback to dismiss its versatility. As I've stated before, I've always found Bitterblossom less impressive than most, and Chubu! ended up cutting them. While I don't think dropping it entirely is the correct solution, going down to 2 definitely sounds more reasonable to me.

All this said, I went 50/50 vs both archetypes. I plan on getting more testing in against Aggro Loam and Bant Survival soon.

frenchy-man

03-26-2010, 03:38 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-26-2010, 11:53 PM

This deck is very strong and don't really have very bad Mus. Nevertheless, I would play Tombstalker over Persecutor because it can be played as quickly as the demon and 5/5 will do the same job. Add to it that one mustn't have to get rid of it in order to kill the opponent, and I think that it is a better win condition.

I'm not so sure about this. Persecutor has way better raw synergy with Dark Confidant (lose 4 life > lose 8 life), it takes less resources to get a second Persecutor in play if the first one gets killed compared to Tombstalker, plus he's bigger than Tombstalker and has trample.

Also, this deck plays ten maindeck cards that are capable of killing Persecutor. It seems pretty solid.

jrsthethird

03-27-2010, 01:55 AM

Cabal Therapy and SB Spinning Darkness slow down Tombstalker, while it's double damage with Confidant and we don't run Top.

frenchy-man

03-27-2010, 02:17 AM

Ok ok you convinced me^^

Michael Keller

03-27-2010, 02:20 PM

I'm not so sure about this. Persecutor has way better raw synergy with Dark Confidant (lose 4 life > lose 8 life), it takes less resources to get a second Persecutor in play if the first one gets killed compared to Tombstalker, plus he's bigger than Tombstalker and has trample.

Also, this deck plays ten maindeck cards that are capable of killing Persecutor. It seems pretty solid.

Depending on which version you're playing. I'm running four Gatekeeper, four Innocent Blood, and three Therapy (for eleven). I've also used Jitte to remove it in some circumstances.

I'm also really liking Sacrament. I've essentially removed the Voids and gone in this direction. It seems more crippling.

Hiis

03-27-2010, 03:06 PM

I've been using Unmake instead of Deathmark and so far it's been quite good. Obviously it's slower than deathmark but gets rid of every creature without shroud and can even be used to kill Persecutor as well.

Wyrath the Great

03-27-2010, 11:19 PM

I use a slightly different list, but so far I've been quite happy with my results from testing. Here's the list in any case:

Lands:
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
14 Snow-Covered Swamps

Creatures:
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Shriekmaw

Spells:
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bitterblossom

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Spinning Darkness

I think this list fits my meta quite well. I play a lot of aggro decks, so there needs to be a heavy deal of removal, but there's still enough combo decks around to call for a varied sideboard. I also tried to pick sideboard cards that are useful against a large number of decks (apart from Ravenous Trap maybe).

What I'm unhappy with so far:

Faerie Macabre:
Seems good, but has been useless in all my games so far.

Bojuka Bog:
Again a card that seems to have some upside, but is more or less just an annoyance. Even when I had two against an Ichorid deck he just comboed off on his turn out of nowhere to make it useless. Would probably be a lot better in a Knight of the Reliquary deck, where you can tutor for it at instant speed.

Nevinyrral's Disk:
Probably needed against some match ups, but just seems so incredibly slow.

What I'm happy with so far:

Abyssal Persecutor:
Finally a guy that can crush the hated Goofball. Been game almost every time, where I've been able to cast him. Love the guy.

Phyrexian Arena:
There seems to be a huge lack of Enchantment removal in my meta, and I've basically been taking great advantage of this. Did die once to Zoo due to not being able to remove it (Bob would had been better there).

Shriekmaw:
Dead against certain decks obviously, but so swingy when you get it out against almost any of the DTB decks using targetable creatures. Seems nice with Stronghold too, but not counting on that to happen.

Vampire Nighthawk:
I was sceptical about this card to begin with. He does dies to Bolt-effects obviously, but he's just so intimidating and swingy. Great inclusion by the OP.

EDIT:

Some spelling/grammar.

Michael Keller

03-28-2010, 02:25 PM

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8826/newbitmapimagewc.png

This was a game three against Dream Halls combo. As you can see, Hymns were huge in crippling his hand. He had Progenitus, but it didn't matter with Innocent Blood or Gatekeeper at hand. What the photo doesn't show you is what happened game two with Sadistic Sacrament; I ended up Duressing a Dream Halls turn one and turn three exiled the other three out of his deck. Putting him on Progenitus is more than fine with the sacrifice effects the deck possesses.

This is good news because the construction of the board is critical against combo, and the Hymns and Sacraments seem to be working great.

MakeMyDay

03-29-2010, 12:28 PM

It might be useflull to have one or two copys of Skullclamp in the main and then get back to the Bitterblossom.
Skullclamp looke like it would go very well with the effects of innocent blood and the gatekeeper where you loose a creature.
It also is a huge card advantage when bitterblossom is online!

jrsthethird

03-29-2010, 12:38 PM

Skullclamp is banned.

Michael Keller

03-29-2010, 12:40 PM

MakeMyDay

03-29-2010, 12:49 PM

sorry, I forgot about it ... It would have been really nice tough

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-29-2010, 01:11 PM

sorry, I forgot about it ... It would have been really nice tough

Trust me, if Skullclamp weren't banned, plenty of decks would play it, not just this one.

Teumie

03-29-2010, 04:18 PM

markbris

03-29-2010, 04:27 PM

I would imagine its not that easy for people to get iona in play against the Gate. he already said he is crushing reanimator in testing. If they go for the graveyard route then they can't stop faerie macabre and he's running 3 of them. Most decks don't run show and tell maindeck either, I don't even know how many really use show and tell.

Michael Keller

03-29-2010, 04:36 PM

Hollywood, could you please post your latest list or update the primer?

What is the sideboard plan now?
Nether void, or sacrament and hymns?

any changes in the mainboard?

I just have one question: what do you do against Iona? scoop? that's the major reason i see for running white (i.e. replace deathmark with swords, add 2 duals and 2-3 fetches) ?

thanks!

Here's my current list:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [US] Duress
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament

I think the better question is, what does my opponent do when Iona gets exiled with a Faerie Macabre out of the blue or a Bojuka Bog following up a Careful Study? Or better yet, how about dropping a Vampire Nighthawk before it even hits play? This is all Game One Theory. When you evaluate the list, you'll notice the deck has a very good match against Reanimator in the first game. I also previously mentioned that I tested against konsultant and won a vast majority of pre-board matches. The surprise factor of Macabre in the first game can just flat-out win you the game.

Game two, I have Relics, Disk, and Sacraments to supplement my Faeries and Bogs. Disk is just amazing and as we all know it is a high probability that the Reanimator player will bring in Show and Tell games two and three, making it even that much better. I've also considered Arena of the Ancients.

Again, in my opinion, white adds nothing to the table anymore than Swords and maybe some miscellaneous artifact or enchantment spot-removal. This is really irrelevant when you consider the hate you already have for creatures anyways. Is Deathmark situational? Sure. But you also have to think to yourself and rationalize that there are dead cards sometimes in certain match-ups with just about every deck you could think of (barring combo, perhaps). I like Deathmark and it works for me. It eliminates a vast majority of problematic creatures in the format without having to commit to a second color (which is really all you'd need it for anyways; this isn't "Deadguy Ale").

Mystical_Jackass

03-29-2010, 05:06 PM

Have you considered running Recurring Nightmare?

Its card advantage is pretty good, and I'm thinking... say you have Abyssal Persecutor out and crush your opponent's life to 0, you could use it to sac him and bring back, say Macambre or one of your creatures ftw for when Therapy isn't present. Or do you think innocent blood & therapy are enough atm

MakeMyDay

03-29-2010, 06:37 PM

I think the problem with Recurring Nightmare is that it is not so strong in most of the other cases. In a regular game situation the other creaures are not really worth getting sac. for something other then Abyssal Persecutor, who happens to almost never be in the grave.

I have been playing the Gate (just copied Hollywoods list) but now I will drop the two bitterblossom for a pair of Bloodghast.
Once I was in topdeck mode it's a pain to wait for a creature that you can attach to jitte and only getting swamps or wastelands.
I know he cant block and it makes him a bit weaker but he is much nicer to sac. He's a reappearing guest who trades with innocent blood for other creatures. I love drawing lands in the Midgame with him.
(Maybe I just wanted to get rid of bitterblosson after I lost two games for a bunch of 1/1 flyers who didn't inflict much damage)

Since I Love Black I Had Been Waiting For A Deck Like The Gate !

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-30-2010, 12:43 AM

Since I Love Black I Had Been Waiting For A Deck Like The Gate !

This. For some reason, ever since my Necropotence deck of yore, playing mono-black has always made me feel like a pimp.

On an actual content note related to what you're bringing up, I can see Bloodghast being ok potentially. It still seems a little lackluster though, compared to Bitterblossom.

I still haven't gotten around to testing, but it seems that Bitterblossom might not be as good as it seems in this deck?? It looks like an amazing card on paper to me, since it gives non-stop chump-blockers, it gives a little bit of a clock on its own, and it's sexy with Jitte. But is the life loss too much of an issue? Has it just not been pulling weight for y'all? If so, I feel like there has to be some sort of mono-black bomb that we haven't thought of yet that could take that slot...

For example, do y'all think Big Game Hunter is garbage in this deck, or might he be worth a shot? That's the only obscure black card I can think of off the top of my head that seems playable, but I'm sure there are oodles more.

(EDIT: /rant) Blargh... I can't wait to start testing this deck. I'm thinking about buying the cards I'm missing, because I have most everything besides Persecutor and Blossoms. Just need to take it for a few test spins before I purchase, if you know what I mean. I gotta call my computer-savvy buddy and convince him he wants to make MWS work on my Macbook.

jrsthethird

03-30-2010, 01:44 AM

(EDIT: /rant) Blargh... I can't wait to start testing this deck. I'm thinking about buying the cards I'm missing, because I have most everything besides Persecutor and Blossoms. Just need to take it for a few test spins before I purchase, if you know what I mean. I gotta call my computer-savvy buddy and convince him he wants to make MWS work on my Macbook.

Follow what this guy says in his blog. It worked for me (there's a couple bugs, it crashes sometimes, but I can generally get matches in at least 90% of the time I try). I had a couple issues setting it up but I eventually figured it out:

http://richshay.com/posts/70

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-30-2010, 03:57 AM

Follow what this guy says in his blog. It worked for me (there's a couple bugs, it crashes sometimes, but I can generally get matches in at least 90% of the time I try). I had a couple issues setting it up but I eventually figured it out:

http://richshay.com/posts/70

nice thanks man. i saw your post before actually, but i've been too lazy to fuck with it... until now! i'm gonna take a crack at it, and if that shit works, i'm testing this deck. Lol

EDIT: I know this isn't really the thread for this, but since there's someone in here trying to help me out...

Apparently Darwine is no longer available, so I downloaded some thing called Wine Bottler that it linked me to...?

I'm trying to follow the steps in that dude's blog, but it makes no sense to me so far. I'm trying to install the fonts and rendering packages, and Wine keeps giving me an error that I don't even begin to understand because that's not my parlance at all. Help anyone?

jrsthethird

03-30-2010, 08:27 AM

Same thing that happened with me. I had to search on google for Darwine and found it somewhere. I'm not exactly sure the steps I took to do it, but it roughly followed his post once you find Darwine on another source. Winebottler was more than useless to me.

It should work for a Macbook. I have a Macbook Pro, so I don't know if that makes a difference, but I tried to get it to work on my friend's Powerbook G4 and I couldn't do it for the life of me, and I don't know why.

grahf

03-30-2010, 01:29 PM

"Wine" stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator," because it isn't. It is a native code translation layer. It cannot translate x86 -> PowerPC code. All varieties Macbooks have Intel processors, but the old Powerbooks have PPC.

(sorry for offtopic)

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-30-2010, 01:30 PM

Update: So I (sorta) got MWS to work with Wine Bottler. Not really though. I'm as far as being able to open it successfully with the Wine client (or something like that), but the only way for me to successfully open the program is to have Wine reinstall it each time I want to open it. So I can't load the card info/ pictures databases, because there's no way I can figure out to open the same copy of the MWS program twice.

I'm gonna see if I can find this Darwine thing. If you still have a link or something, it'd be helpful.

Sorry to waylay the thread with all this bullshit. I'll switch to sending you PM's after this post, if I still need help. Thanks, by the way.

Mystical_Jackass

03-31-2010, 12:11 AM

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-31-2010, 12:59 AM

Okay, my newest rant: Bojouku Bog

I'm running two in a deck much similar to this one. I finished a tourny today, I did well, but that's not really the point.. I literally found the card not useful in all my particular matchups.
Now, none the decks were of the Dredge, Aggro Loam, Stax type.. but it was BOTHERING me. Just about every time it came up early or opening hand I'd hold off as long as I can and end up having to drop it on turn3 or something, too early to be useful even if it mattered. It too often set me back not being able to play that 3cc spell or 2cc/1cc play I wanted.

I'll probably be taking it out, or SB at best. I think it's a misconception that it "shrinks goyf" (possibly shrinks it by 1, for a turn maybe) since you also have to factor your gy, and reanimator is unphased, it can drop a creature and reanimate it one motion np. I think it's unpredictability of when it shows up and slowness outshine its benefits from when I used it.

I think the thing to consider is "randomly good" can also be "randomly bad" much of the time.

I've had a little doubt about Bog or no Bog myself. I really like Faerie Macabre, since you can use its ability for free and at instant speed, and it's a mediocre creature if you don't need grave hate. On the other hand, Bog is just a CIPT swamp that bites it to Wasteland, and sorcery speed can be important. I'm just theory-crafting here, but I'd like to hear some feedback from more folks who've been testing on how Bojuka Bog has been for them, because I'm a little dubious.

Honestly, I think Volrath's Stronghold could be good in Bog's slot. There's also Phyrexian Tower as an additional outlet to sacrifice Persecutor, but this is probably just too cute since the deck doesn't have much need for a conditional tap-for-:b::b:, and its normal ability produces colorless mana unfortunately.

Seriously though what's with no one running Stronghold?

Mystical_Jackass

03-31-2010, 01:34 AM

Seriously though what's with no one running Stronghold?

I run as a 1-of in a Mono Black Stax deck. I wouldn't consider playing more than one in a deck like this at most; you have to consider the mana costs in the cards like Hymn & Gatekeeper, which could potentially set you a turn back. What is one turn, though.. sometimes winning/losing unfortunately :/

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-31-2010, 01:39 AM

I run as a 1-of in a Mono Black Stax deck. I wouldn't consider playing more than one in a deck like this at most; you have to consider the mana costs in the cards like Hymn & Gatekeeper, which could potentially set you a turn back. What is one turn, though.. sometimes winning/losing unfortunately :/

Obviously Stronghold is a one-of card, unless your whole deck is based around it (and obviously such a deck would suck.) It's a late-game card though, and it's pretty awesome at winning attrition wars. I don't see what harm it could do as a one-of if people were to cut Bojuka Bog or move it to the sideboard. And I can see how it would be awesome, since Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, and Dark Confidant are all pretty good creatures to be able to recur. As is, I don't think the deck needs more than six non-basics, but I'm wondering how good Bog actually is in a deck that can't search for it as an instant (ie Crop Rotation or Knight of the Reliquary.)

Anusien

03-31-2010, 07:50 AM

What happens if you just don't draw Faerie Macabre against Reanimator and they're on the Iona plan? You'll see it something less than 50% of your games.

Michael Keller

03-31-2010, 08:21 AM

What happens if you just don't draw Faerie Macabre against Reanimator and they're on the Iona plan? You'll see it something less than 50% of your games.

Seeing as how very few (if any) decks in the format currently run some aspect of unstoppable graveyard hate main-deck, running three Macabres and two Bogs is still effective enough game one that if I draw either, they could potentially win me the game.

Running Duress is also big because it can help stall a turn or two and nail a key spell from their hand. In fact, it isn't even stalling; I can just drop creatures the next few turns and go beatdown. There are some other variables involved such as who is on the play, what turn it is, etc. Being realistic, I have a decent opportunity to stun an opponent with uncounterable graveyard removal game one, which is more than a lot of other decks can say. Now granted, I am playing a single color, but Iona herself can simply shut off white and more often than not that is just as effective as naming "black" against me; it would just win them the game like it would if they named "white" against the opponent with two Swords or Paths in hand.

Mystical_Jackass

03-31-2010, 10:24 AM

What happens if you just don't draw Faerie Macabre against Reanimator and they're on the Iona plan? You'll see it something less than 50% of your games.

We'll see it in <50% of our matchups? Seems a little excessive, I dunno if that many players run survival or reanimators, especially based on budget. And of those, Iona is generally a 1-of, maybe 2, your chances of accidently having them discard it are slim. And what does Bog do in either of those matchups? Very little. If your opponent gets survival out, in one scenarion, he will most likely survival at the end of your turn not giving you the chance to bog anything pertinent unless he's an idiot, then loyal retainers and go off on his turn. Reanimator is much the same. Faerie is good in those situations, Bog is slow and clumsy like a volcanic hammer. :P

markbris

03-31-2010, 12:02 PM

We'll see it in <50% of our matchups? Seems a little excessive, I dunno if that many players run survival or reanimators, especially based on budget.

I'm pretty sure he meant that we would draw the card in <50% of our games.

Mystical_Jackass

03-31-2010, 02:50 PM

I'm pretty sure he meant that we would draw the card in <50% of our games.

Ah, my mistake with the interpretation :wink: I thought "it" was referring to Iona

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-31-2010, 02:56 PM

http://www.abandomoviez.net/db/foto/thegate.jpg

Just bumped across this little gem. Lolz.

AcidFiend

03-31-2010, 06:49 PM

I agree with the Duke - in testing I have hated Bogs and replaced them with Swamps, while 1 x Stronghold is awesome. Recurring your Shriekmaw/Nighthawks is excellent.

Vacrix

03-31-2010, 07:00 PM

Just bumped across this little gem. Lolz.

I lol'd!!

Why is this deck playing something as janky as Sadistic Sacrament? Sure its good against ANT.. like generic ANT. If you run into a good version of storm combo like TES/NLS... then its not so great. I think those 3 spots can be put to better use.

Anusien

03-31-2010, 07:05 PM

Seeing as how very few (if any) decks in the format currently run some aspect of unstoppable graveyard hate main-deck, running three Macabres and two Bogs is still effective enough game one that if I draw either, they could potentially win me the game.

Running Duress is also big because it can help stall a turn or two and nail a key spell from their hand. In fact, it isn't even stalling; I can just drop creatures the next few turns and go beatdown. There are some other variables involved such as who is on the play, what turn it is, etc. Being realistic, I have a decent opportunity to stun an opponent with uncounterable graveyard removal game one, which is more than a lot of other decks can say. Now granted, I am playing a single color, but Iona herself can simply shut off white and more often than not that is just as effective as naming "black" against me; it would just win them the game like it would if they named "white" against the opponent with two Swords or Paths in hand.
Let's say you're on the play aganist Reanimator. How far are you willing to mulligan to find Faerie Macabre or Bojuka Bog? Let's assume that if you see it, you win (not a given), and if you don't, you lose (also not a given, but closer). Are you willing to mulligan to 5 looking for it? To 4? To 1?

FoulQ

03-31-2010, 07:23 PM

Let's say you're on the play aganist Reanimator. How far are you willing to mulligan to find Faerie Macabre or Bojuka Bog? Let's assume that if you see it, you win (not a given), and if you don't, you lose (also not a given, but closer). Are you willing to mulligan to 5 looking for it? To 4? To 1?

Please realize that he has 2 relics in his sideboard, as well as nev's disk if he wants to bring it in for Iona. And against non-Iona targets he has plenty of other options on top of those.

Michael Keller

03-31-2010, 07:25 PM

If it is game one, I can't mulligan knowing that my opponent is playing Reanimator. I'm glad you addressed the mulligan strategy, Anusien; I haven't touched base on that yet.

As far as game two goes, I would definitely bring in some more hate and mulligan into some sort of graveyard hate. I'd be willing to mulligan to five against a deck drawing strength from its graveyard to win. It would depend on the matchup.

Bogs are probably going to be seeing their way out, too.

Anusien

03-31-2010, 11:24 PM

If it is game one, I can't mulligan knowing that my opponent is playing Reanimator. I'm glad you addressed the mulligan strategy, Anusien; I haven't touched base on that yet.
You never scout?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and saying you know your opponent is on Reanimator. Since Bogs are on their way out, you just have 3 Faerie Macabre maindeck + discard to beat Iona. So how low are you willing to mulligan to find Macabre?

Also, how favorable do you consider the Reanimator matchup in game1?

Michael Keller

03-31-2010, 11:41 PM

You never scout?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and saying you know your opponent is on Reanimator. Since Bogs are on their way out, you just have 3 Faerie Macabre maindeck + discard to beat Iona. So how low are you willing to mulligan to find Macabre?

Also, how favorable do you consider the Reanimator matchup in game1?

I'll do a walk-around in between rounds to see if I can catch a glimpse of what I may be dealing with. In large events, it's even that much harder but it's always worth the effort.

Faerie Macabre isn't necessarily the bread and butter of the deck, but like I said there is no realistic way to know what a face is playing earlier in a larger event in a game one. Bogs are helpful, but I'm just considering sticking with three Faeries the first game. I'd mulligan on the play to at least five if I knew what my opponent was playing. Games two and three get even easier. I'd mulligan to (at least) five on the play games two and three, and to five on the draw.

Edit: This strategy has worked so far in testing.

Anusien

03-31-2010, 11:55 PM

How favorable do you think Reanimator is Game 1?

Michael Keller

04-01-2010, 12:18 AM

How favorable do you think Reanimator is Game 1?

It really comes down to who wins the roll and goes first. But even so, it depends on how crushing a start either deck gets. Game one, assuming you don't know what your opponent is playing, you have a 32% chance of opening the game with a Faerie in hand and a 35% chance of drawing into it turn one on the draw. Again, it all depends on the strength of hands.

If we are going by raw testing, I played against konsultant nearly twenty games (mostly pre-board) and ended up winning somewhere in the area of 75% to 80% of those games. These statistics are based on the pre-board match-ups and alternating on the play and draw each time. If I had to base an educated conclusion on it, I'd say it is close to 60/40 in favor of The Gate, pre-board only.

Anusien

04-01-2010, 12:21 AM

If you're willing to mull to 5 every game to find a 3 of on the play, you'll see it less than 62% of the time. That each Macabre isn't guaranteed to be a win.

I find these claims very very sketchy.

Michael Keller

04-01-2010, 12:33 AM

I've spent countless hours sitting in my barracks room on my off time testing day in and out; I can assure you, I have no reason to bullshit you.

You let me know how many decks in the format are capable of stopping a turn one or two Iona when the Reanimator player also packs Force of Will game one. Then, we'll talk.

This is a deck that, at the very least, has an answer game one that can cripple (possibly even three for one bringing Faerie into play) an opponent and win you the game (*snap*, just like that). If my percentages seem fixed, you can assume whatever you like. But this is the product of hours of testing and I can assure you that just like you mentioned: If my opponent is playing Reanimator and they decide to go off on turn one or two, then sure - I had no idea what they were playing and I wasn't able to stop it (even with Bog, Faerie, Duress, and Therapy).

But that also means that Reanimator player has to forfeit a card in their hand if they try to dodge Duress with Mystical-Entomb. Now, they've lost a reanimation spell and I've still bought myself time.

Bottom line is I've beaten Reanimator more times than I've lost to it. And I've played it out...a lot.

EDIT: Also, Macabre is more often than not a game-winner if and when it does hit Iona. I'm not sure how much testing you have done against it, but when you nix the only card in their deck that matters, the rest of their threats become a joke against you (Inkwell, Archon, Sphinx, etc.). Assuming they run another copy of Iona, you should at least have established a board presence before they have a chance to recuperate from such a hit and expending two (if not three) cards to make it happen.

And with a light mana base, you can bet Wasteland is big in that match as well.

Anusien

04-01-2010, 12:50 AM

My advice would be to test it a lot more and come back once you have a finished product. There might be some potential here, although I'm skeptical. But here's what happened in this whole thread:
1) You come out with a list that you claim beats everyone. You yell at everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand the deck. You point at the tournament results you have to make people go away.
2) You make a change (that's likely one somebody suggested to you that you disagreed with).
3) Goto 1.

Like yes, Faerie Macabre is an interesting card that does beat countermagic. But it doesn't beat Exhume + another Entomb or Show and Tell. But a single 3 of isn't enough game 1 to claim a winning matchup.

Anyway, the point that makes everyone so skeptical is that if you have all those hours of testing and tournament performance and the deck is so awesome, why have so many slots changed since the opening post?

nicolasbol

04-01-2010, 01:52 AM

you have no idea what you are talking about

In case you are blind

Got it? Good.

in case you haven't done your reading

I don't know who you think you are

so please refrain from being Inspector Dick and attacking my integrity any further

It's a real turn off to deal with so much aggresivity, I was very enthusiastic about the game, the tournament result and maybe getting involved with its development but I will refrain.

If you are as well educated as you claim, just let the haters slide and show some class, there is nothing more impressive than great result with great attitude.

You probably don't care much about my opinion though.

This being said, good luck with the development of this type, I sincerely wish to see you perfecting it and win some tournaments.

Michael Keller

04-01-2010, 01:56 AM

It's a real turn off to deal with so much aggresivity, I was very enthusiastic about the game, the tournament result and maybe getting involved with its development but I will refrain.

If you are as well educated as you claim, just let the haters slide and show some class, there is nothing more impressive than great result with great attitude.

You probably don't care much about my opinion though.

This being said, good luck with the development of this type, I sincerely wish to see you perfecting it and win some tournaments.

I'll do you one up. Fixed. Thanks.

pi4meterftw

04-01-2010, 02:12 AM

Hollywood, this list is very impressive. In legacy, there are about 10 decks that aren't strictly dominated right now, and I think this can be added to that list. It looks solid, and there's nothing I can say in my limited experience that even comes to mind that might make it better. I thought about tombstalker, but even I could tell that wasn't going to work because you don't fill your graveyard. So good job, I especially like the death mark.

Also, regarding Anusien's list of steps in development of this deck, NoGoyf followed roughly the same pattern, but then we backed the results up with tournament play. Perfect thinkers wouldn't have this skepticism just because you claim to beat everybody. Decks can do that. It's called: good construction. There isn't some cosmic limit that decks can't beat everything. What's probably true is that if you do beat everybody, then other people need to step up their game to make the metagame even again. I doubt UWT will always be the reigning champion of the format. Just as soon as people wise up, it'll be put into its place.

He also accuses you of making changes that other people have suggested, which isn't really a meaningful accusation. The way things work is people fling a lot of changes, and if you fling enough at the wall, some of it will stick. Additionally, there are some good minds that make suggestions that stick with a rather high consistency, but there's no problem with that. I don't see any contradiction here, since it's not as if you claimed every single human being is stupid.

Hopefully this goes well, but as I said, I have nothing to contribute to the development. My experience in this area doesn't really exist, nor have I really thought about it much.

Mystical_Jackass

04-01-2010, 02:24 AM

Meh. People posting good tournament results... it's like a double edged sword, but I can see where Hollywood's coming from.

When you do not have results, everyone's all about "we wanna see stats, stats, stats" before they take ANYTHING seriously, since opinions and backed up facts aren't good enough and get thrown around too often. If you do post and stand by tourney results, you sorta get played off like some sorta gloater. I guess its more a matter of integrity.

I just like kicking ideas, black is my fav color in MTG. I enjoy trying to help people bringing ideas to the table, knowing only a small % go through doesn't matter 'cause its a good way of ruling through all the choices. I think creativity's what sets you ahead of the curve, I like where this is going and I hope we got some new gg black spells revealed soon

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-01-2010, 04:26 AM

Wow. Way too much e-peen in here today.

Anyways, regarding Reanimator, I think it's silly to pretend that they're some sort of boogeyman deck with the power of a Norse god to play T1 or T2 Iona against all odds. Reanimator is a good deck, but this one has enough cards to be able to interact with it early enough to matter. And it's not like they're immune to disruption.

I feel like "how does deck X, Y, or Z beat Reanimator?" is becoming a straw man argument on the caliber of "it dies to removal."

Bottom line: every deck and every player are subject to the same laws of statistics. It's not like anyone's trying to say this is the holy grail in deck-building, and it's just as equally silly to suggest that Reanimator, or Blue White Tempo, or whatever-the-fuck, is the perfect deck.

Personally, I think this deck is at the stage where it can stand to try out a few slight variations, tweak around the numbers here and there, find a few new cards to try out, etc. It's a solid idea for a deck, and I don't doubt that it plays well. But I think constructive criticism and friendly discussion are what's going to help it improve in here, rather than all the pissing contests.

In the spirit of bringing up random cards for consideration, I'll mention Mirri the Cursed for people to weigh in on. I wouldn't consider it as anything more than a one-of because obviously it completely sucks against any deck that runs Lightning Bolt etc, but it seems like the abilities are pretty versatile, and she's an excellent creature to attach a Umezawa's Jitte to. It probably is in the "not going to work" department, but I just wanted to clear the air in here a bit by bringing up a cool card.

badjuju

04-01-2010, 06:53 AM

I'll reiterate my testing vs reanimator again: it was 50/50.
Yes, I did proxy this up IRL, yes I did actually sit down and play more than "a few" matches.

Pre-board, it all came down to whether or not I had the Faerie Macabre. Seriously. Even if I did have hand disruption, it wasn't hard for him to Brainstorm or Mystical in response into whatever enabler he needed to go off. Post board was a little easier because of Relics (I wasn't running Nev's Disk), but it's basically the same game + more chances to disable them. Really though, what you want to see in that matchup is a Persecutor cause he'll shorten the game into 4 turns.

I also had the chance to play this deck vs UW Tempo for several matches. I think it was 40/60, their favor, pre-board.
One of the primary reasons is the presence of Mother of Runes. She's really annoying when combined with Serra Avenger, to basically have an infi blocker against your aerial threats. They also run many more creatures, meaning if you aren't stocked with removal, Gatekeeper and Innocent Blood begin to suck. Because of Stoneforge Mystic, they can always get the upper hand in the Jitte war, and that alone can end the game quickly. Jotun Grunt messes up your Cabal Therapies and then they have Fathom Seers that dodge your Deathmarks and are able to chump your grounded 2/X's. In short, it's a terrible uphill battle where you literally have to cut them off right in the beginning by Deathmarking their Wayfarer/Mother and then Wastelanding their Tundra. Only then can you have a sure victory.

I'm beginning to question a few choices in the deck - mainly cards that are narrow bombs versus cards that are better in a wider variety of matchups. Case in point is Deathmark. Smother costs 1 more, but hits virtually everything relevant in the format (even Phyrexian Dreadnought), and anything you can't kill with Smother you wouldn't have been able to with Deathmark anyways. Is costing B instead of 1B really that much more important? Is it so you can play around Daze? After playing the deck a bunch more, I just feel like the benefits of Smother outweigh the benefits of Deathmark. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Bitterblossom has been extremely, extremely underwhelming. In short - the card is slow. On the defense, it takes a turn before it chump blocks, and on the offense, the damage it provides is minuscule (cause I'm using it defensively most the time anyways). In the end I just don't know if this card is necessary. The more I play with it the more I feel like I'd rather just have something else. I thought it might have just been me the first few times I played the deck, but after playing it even more the card just isn't that great.

So what do we replace it with? There are SOOO many options in black it's not even funny. I think what this deck needs more than anything though is card advantage. The only card in the deck that actually provides you with more cards than you pay for is Dark Confidant (assuming he even lives - which is often NOT the case). The deck is great at trading 1-for-1, but if your opponent is able to somehow draw more cards or waste more of your resources, you will fall behind with no way of catching back up.

Hymn to Tourach
Even without the help of Dark Ritual, two cards at random is extremely devastating to any deck. This is one of signature spells of black, and I think that the deck would benefit from something like this. However, one thing to note is that this archetype does benefit more from dealing with resolved threats rather than preemptively removing them, so this may not be 100% correct as far as what we're looking for. It's also not the greatest topdeck.

Phyrexian Arena
Slow, but steady. We need to draw more cards, and this is one of the best ways to do it. Once again, the power of this card is hurt without the inclusion of Dark Ritual.

Damnation
I know, I know. But seriously, while playing this deck, there were tons of times where I wished I had something to just clean the board out. Innocent Blood sometimes just doesn't cut it when there are multiple threats on the table. The deck might have to change to include this card, but I implore you to consider this.

Shriekmaw
Flexibility. Good early game, even better late game. I could definitely see this replacing the Bitterblossom slot, cause it provides defense AND offense at the same time.

All this said, and I know this isn't the right thread for it, but take a look at this MB suicide deck - it's awesome:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33992

jrsthethird

04-01-2010, 07:40 AM

I'm beginning to question a few choices in the deck - mainly cards that are narrow bombs versus cards that are better in a wider variety of matchups. Case in point is Deathmark. Smother costs 1 more, but hits virtually everything relevant in the format (even Phyrexian Dreadnought), and anything you can't kill with Smother you wouldn't have been able to with Deathmark anyways. Is costing B instead of 1B really that much more important? Is it so you can play around Daze? After playing the deck a bunch more, I just feel like the benefits of Smother outweigh the benefits of Deathmark. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Smother is also an instant. I remember trying out Deathmark in standard. I tried to use it as a combat trick, then my opponent showed me the typeline, and I said "Shit. Why am I playing this over Smother?". I think that same logic applies here.

Bitterblossom has been extremely, extremely underwhelming. In short - the card is slow. On the defense, it takes a turn before it chump blocks, and on the offense, the damage it provides is minuscule (cause I'm using it defensively most the time anyways). In the end I just don't know if this card is necessary. The more I play with it the more I feel like I'd rather just have something else. I thought it might have just been me the first few times I played the deck, but after playing it even more the card just isn't that great.

So what do we replace it with? There are SOOO many options in black it's not even funny. I think what this deck needs more than anything though is card advantage. The only card in the deck that actually provides you with more cards than you pay for is Dark Confidant (assuming he even lives - which is often NOT the case). The deck is great at trading 1-for-1, but if your opponent is able to somehow draw more cards or waste more of your resources, you will fall behind with no way of catching back up.

Bitterblossom is card advantage, if it sticks for more than 1 turn. Also, I'm running a B/W deck that plays similarly and I'm running 4 Bitterblossom and it's definitely one of the best cards in the deck. I usually like to see it over Persecutor because it's harder to deal with and comes online faster. The tokens carry Jitte like a champ.

Anyway have you noticed a difference in when you cast Bitterblossom? If you play it turn 2, it's amazing. Every turn afterwards, it gets a little bit worse but still good for me. I can imagine in this deck it isn't as useful, but I still see it being a great part of the deck, considering how expendable the tokens are for Therapy/Blood. It's not a good late-game topdeck, so maybe the problem is that you aren't seeing it early enough for it to be really good.

Anusien

04-01-2010, 09:12 AM

I'm a fan of Smother. Against decks with Vial or manlands, like Merfolk or Goblins, having no instant speed removal is a liability.

Chubu!

04-01-2010, 10:29 PM

@Vacrix:

Why is this deck playing something as janky as Sadistic Sacrament? Sure its good against ANT.. like generic ANT. If you run into a good version of storm combo like TES/NLS... then its not so great. I think those 3 spots can be put to better use.

Such as, and for what reason(s)?

@DukeDemonKnight

Seriously though what's with no one running Stronghold?

See my list from page 6 of this thread. I have considered cutting Stronghold on several occasions, but I stick with it. It has helped me out several times, now, and turned some possible game losses into wins. Having a Stronghold in play means that your opponent must think twice before attacking into a Gatekeeper, because sending him to the yard means he may well be hitting the board again next turn. Obviously, there are other uses for Stronghold, but this is the particular use that has won me a few games, recently. I do feel like running Stronghold means cutting Wastelands (or going for more than 22 total lands.) Otherwise, there are too few black sources in the manabase. I also prefer to run two copies, because the first one is likely to draw a Wasteland right quick. Test both Stronghold and Wasteland, and see what you think.

@Mystical Jackass

I think creativity's what sets you ahead of the curve, I like where this is going and I hope we got some new gg black spells revealed soon

Thank you. Creativity is what makes new decks viable, and keeps established archetypes in the top tiers. If anyone thinks a particular card may work for the deck, test it, dammit. If it works after lots of testing, mention it, and why it works. If said card is a huge fail, then at least one learns something about the deck, and in the future will be better at picking out other cards to test that may be viable.

eq.firemind

04-02-2010, 02:12 AM

How about Skullsnatcher? This dirty rat can do some funny things in this deck: additional GY hate, reuse Gatekeeper of Malakir and bounce Abyssal Persecutor. And sometimes you can catch you opponent when he aims spot removal on your unblocked dude.

f|i[p]

04-02-2010, 04:20 AM

I'm a fan of Smother. Against decks with Vial or manlands, like Merfolk or Goblins, having no instant speed removal is a liability.

I have noticed this as well, although I didn't play the deck, but against it. Doesn't it bother you that all your creature kills seem to be done on your turn.

Although I must say, death mark is really good and I am very impressed with it, in terms that most fat creatures in the format is green. (it would have been better if it was instant speed however)

Chubu!

04-02-2010, 10:31 PM

To any and all interested; looking for some opinions here:

In which matchups is Bitterblossom MVP, in your respective opinions? I'm looking to play some more matches with this deck, using builds both with and without Bitterblossom, and would like to hear what people think are the most important matchups to test.

Also, I've been trying out Sadistic Sacrament in the board, and have noticed that it comes in handy vs. some less common but still viable decks. For example, I played a match vs. a Garruk/Stasis lockdown deck last night, and Sacrament allowed me to remove several wincons. Although I still lost the match 2-1, I think I could do much better in a rematch, knowing better now how to board for the m/u. I like cards that have such toolbox-type utility, because it is usually the case (in my experience) that, in a small-to-large group-type setting, one will encounter at least one deck that is not of a "popular" or even "Top Tier" archetype. When a card can help a problematic-but-potentially-winnable matchup against a Tier I archetype, (storm combo) and also be useful against a semi-random deck, (in this case, Garruk-Stasis lock) it warrants a good hard look, IMO.

AcidFiend

04-05-2010, 09:10 PM

eq.firemind: Love the Skullsnatcher idea, very cute. Not sure he'll make my list but certainly something worth taking a look at. The reaction of your opponent when you ninja in response to a Swords would be priceless. Throat Slitter has a great effect, though the 2B ninja cost might be prohibitive.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-05-2010, 11:59 PM

Yeah, I've been meaning to say that the SkullSnatcher idea was kinda cute. I don't know though, because although he can do a few things, he doesn't do any of them very reliably. It's just a teeny-weeny creature, unreliable grave hate, and as a combat trick preventing removal, I just don't think it's going to come up all that much.

On another note, does anyone think that Dusk Urchins might be useful as a two-of or so? It's not really ideal, but he seems ok as a speed-bump against aggro, since he cantrips while potentially taking out one of their attackers. He also plays nicely with Innocent Blood, which seems somewhat important, since from what I've been hearing people say, Bitterblossom is the card that's the most up for debate in this deck. Obviously though, he kinda sucks against burn spells.

Honestly I'm a little surprised how hard it's been trying to think of good potential additions to this deck... Maybe Korlash, Heir to Blackblade?? Blargh...

Wyrath the Great

04-06-2010, 04:15 AM

On another note, does anyone think that Dusk Urchins might be useful as a two-of or so? It's not really ideal, but he seems ok as a speed-bump against aggro, since he cantrips while potentially taking out one of their attackers. He also plays nicely with Innocent Blood, which seems somewhat important, since from what I've been hearing people say, Bitterblossom is the card that's the most up for debate in this deck. Obviously though, he kinda sucks against burn spells.

Honestly I'm a little surprised how hard it's been trying to think of good potential additions to this deck... Maybe Korlash, Heir to Blackblade?? Blargh...

I used Dusk Urchins in my Extended version of the deck. In general it is better in Pox dekcs or decks with Contamination-like effects (at least in my opinion). As for other options I've tested both Nyxathid and Tombstalker (I play Phyrexian Arena, not Bob). Nyxathid won me some games against decks like Burn and Zoo, but in general it just felt like a more unreliable Goyf. To be honest I'd rather splash green if I just wanted a big dork. Actually splashing green for Grip, Goyf, Deed and Pulse tempts me more and more. Could also give Living Wish to search for Gatekeeper or Macabre.

deadlock

04-06-2010, 10:51 AM

If this has been discussed already feel free to ignore it.

Dark Ritual
There were strong reasons against its inclusion and i want to discuss it once again. Examples like getting 2-1 with Ritual and it being dead in the later stages of the game seem to be the best arguments.
-About being 2-1: First of the deck runs quite a bit of expensive spells, so Ritual would help in that regard for sure. What i am concerned about is mainly dealing with Daze and to a lesser extend Spell Pierce. In contrast to say Spell Snare, the opponent doesnt need any mana open to Daze a e.g. Nighthawk. Delaying your plays by a turn is sometimes not an option, so please dont use that argument. Also dont forget the cases where an early Ritual doesnt get answered, while being a little bit inconsistent, Ritual powered spells can devastate your oppoent very early.

- Being dead later on: This is a concern i share and which cant be negated completly without adding specific cards to the deck, which can utilize Ritual even later on. In Suicide Black this card was (among others?) Shade, which i dont recommend as it looks quite weak to me. On the other hand a card like Skeletal Scrying could profit quite a bit from Ritual, sure you lose an additional card from your hand, but it would turn the otherwise dead Rituals into cards. Another possibilty which come to my mind are Drain like spells (eg Consume Spirit), which may be a little underpowered.

Another suggestion would be SDT, which would require the deck to be reworked by quite a bit. Maybe not the best idea for the current version. Still i would like to see something, which allows to manipulate draws. Especially because the deck runs quite some spells which are a total bomb in on matchup and are dead in another.

TheSleeper

04-06-2010, 05:17 PM

I seem to recall Dusk Urchins being discussed in the Demon Stompy thread, with the general consensus being if you need draw there are better cards (Phyrexian Rager - draws you a card straight away unlike a Bolt'd Urchin), and if you need beaters there are better also (Negator).

Personally I'm dying for a viable home for Negator once again - I love that guy. But with so many decks packing Lightning Bolt I'm not sure now is his time to shine :(

Chubu!

04-06-2010, 10:43 PM

@ Deadlock

Dark Ritual
There were strong reasons against its inclusion and i want to discuss it once again. Examples like getting 2-1 with Ritual and it being dead in the later stages of the game seem to be the best arguments.

I held on to running Dark Ritual for quite some time. The main reason I cut it was consistency. I feel as if I take very few mulligans with the deck (I don't have any numbers to accompany this statement. Sorry.) Unless other cards are cut, adding in Ritual would most likely mean more mulligans. I'm not saying that Ritual doesn't do the deck any good (Hell, 3 mana on turn 1 is generally ok with me) but my personal opinion is that its disadvantages in this deck outweigh its advantages. The deck has plenty of turn 1-2 disruption, and a fair chance of hitting BBB by turn 3 with the 20 black sources I'm running (64% on the play, 72% on the draw.) Given this, my personal choice was the consistency of basics over the speed of ritual.

Obviously, there are many other arguments both for and against Ritual in the deck, but I'm focusing on this particular one. If the deck were a little more tempo-ish (i.e. maindeck Hymn) MAYBE Ritual could have a place. As is, what I really like to see in my opening hand is a couple of basics, Duress, Therapy, I-Blood, and and some other form of removal, be it Gatekeeper or Smother/Deathmark. Granted, I rarely see all these in the opening 7, but note that only two of the mentioned cards cost more than B (and not everyone runs Smother.) This means that, in order to really make a crushing play with Ritual, I need to see it plus at least two other of the mentioned cards in my hand. I'm not saying that Ritual is absolutely useless after turn 1, either, but its potential usefulness does diminish with each successive land drop. As far as Ritual being dead in the late game, generally, the basic land with which I replaced Ritual is not what I want to pull, either. If it is, I'm probably close to being dead, too. :)

As for SDT, I agree it would require the deck to be reworked a bit. I tried it out quite a while ago, when my build was somewhat different from what it is now. Top and Bob are great together. This is no mystery. With the way the deck plays, though, I just wasn't getting much use out of top until I had a significant amount of mana on the board, because I was always using my mana in the early game to disrupt/play threats, leave open for Smother, etc... Scrying I definitely like, and I run as a 1-of. I would like two, but just can't decide what I would cut to fit in the second. I like staying heavy on creature removal, personally. I'm fine with a 1-of, in this case, because of the card's redundancy with Bob. \

(My list is posted on page 6, I believe. Note that the board has changed greatly from what I posted.)

EDIT: I forgot about Bojuka Bog coming into play tapped. Make my chances for BBB by turn 3 - 61% and 69%, respectively

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-07-2010, 04:44 AM

EDIT: I forgot about Bojuka Bog coming into play tapped. Make my chances for BBB by turn 3 - 61% and 69%, respectively

Not entirely true, because this doesn't seem to factor in that you could play Bog on your first or second turn and still be able to have :b::b::b: on your third turn.

I can't really understand why you're making such a huge deal about triple black mana by the third turn though. Gatekeeper of Malakir is the only thing in the deck that even needs that anyways. And it's not like you have to be able to play him on turn three every game.

Chubu!

04-07-2010, 03:58 PM

Not entirely true, because this doesn't seem to factor in that you could play Bog on your first or second turn and still be able to have BBB on your third turn.

Agreed.

I can't really understand why you're making such a huge deal about triple black mana by the third turn though. Gatekeeper of Malakir is the only thing in the deck that even needs that anyways. And it's not like you have to be able to play him on turn three every game.

Also agreed. I quoted some numbers simply for the sake of taking a look at the chances of playing the deck's most color-intensive card at the earliest possible opportunity, without any acceleration (i.e. Ritual.) I haven't looked at how running 4x Ritual in place of basics would affect that number, nor at what would be the chances of hitting 2BB by turn 4, (or sooner) both with and without Ritual. In the second paragraph of my previous post, I mentioned some of the reasons for which I choose not to run Ritual.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-07-2010, 05:12 PM

In the second paragraph of my previous post, I mentioned some of the reasons for which I choose not to run Ritual.

True dat. We're both agreed on why this deck is better off without Dark Ritual. This deck goes for a methodical approach rather than an explosive one, basically. It's better to just disrupt the opponent's play for the first couple of turns rather than take more mulligans due to replacing lands with Ritual, or to have Ritual lurking in your deck like a dead draw waiting to happen after the first couple turns or so.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-10-2010, 04:32 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104043&d=1270785727

I think this has the potential to be better than Duress in this deck. I think it fits in better with the overall plan of controlling the opponent's tempo during the first couple of turns, since we can use it to take away their creatures. Not being able to get Force of Will is a risk, but we do also run Cabal Therapy for that issue. And I really think about 90% of the cards that get played in this format cost less than :3:. I'm not entirely sure if we should flat-out replace Duress with this, but I think it's good enough to run a few. I could even see a 3-3 or 3-2 split, if we were to expand our discard package a little bit.

What do y'all think of the card?

slylie

04-10-2010, 06:13 AM

I think the card is good. It might seem a bit narrow as it can't hit stuff like FOW, Ad Nauseam, Natural order, ect.

But still strong.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-11-2010, 01:27 AM

I think the card is good. It might seem a bit narrow as it can't hit stuff like FOW, Ad Nauseam, Natural order, ect.

But still strong.

Well, I've been thinking about this: chances of hitting Ad Nauseam with discard is relatively slim anyways, because they usually run 1-2 copies. You usually just want to hit their tutors and whatnot in order to make them not be able to combo out. Natural Order tends to fetch for Progenitals, which we can ideally just hit with Innocent Blood. Force of Will is the main issue, and we could still hit that with Cabal Therapy. And also, this is why it seems interesting to split Inquisition of Kozilek with Duress. Selective discard for :b: with no loss of life attached is just that good-- I could see myself pretty happily splitting 3/3/3 between Inquisition, Therapy, and Duress. I would probably try cutting the 2x Bitterblossom from Hollywood's latest list in order to test this out...

Speaking of which, how's the deck been doing? Has anyone taken this to any tournaments recently?

Chubu!

04-11-2010, 01:56 AM

I'm intrigued with your idea of a 3-3-3 split. I feel like Inquisition is more of a tempo-style card than Duress, but I was hesitant to consider cutting Duress for something that couldn't hit Force of Will, even with Therapy to back it up. Testing will tell if that's too much discard or not.

Any thoughts on Suffer the Past? (I haven't found a hi-res image yet.) This:

Suffer the Past
XB
Instant
Uncommon
Exile X target cards from target player’s graveyard. For each card exiled this way, that player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.

Could this replace Soul Spike and/or Spinning Darkness in the board? I like the instant speed; I also like targeted yard removal. Life gain is good. CC of 1 is good. (Granted, this would sometimes come in when Bob is coming out, but still...) Is not hitting creatures too big an issue to make it a consideration? Do we run enough land to make this viable, without an accelerator, or will it force us to withhold too many plays, in order to keep mana open? (I'm not sure in which matchups, if any, this last thought would be a consideration, but I'm throwing it out there while it's on my mind.)

jrsthethird

04-11-2010, 01:58 AM

What matches do you take out Bob for?

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-11-2010, 03:45 AM

What matches do you take out Bob for?

Zoo (http://thestorageanarchist.typepad.com/weblog/WindowsLiveWriter/lt&b.png), maybe Burn.

Coetzee

04-11-2010, 06:06 AM

So I decided to give legacy on MTGO a try and since I didn't feel like spending a fortune and getting digital versions of the cards I already own I browsed around on the board in search for cheap but still competetive decks to try.

I always had a soft spot for mono-black and i found both this deck and "the nightmare effect" interesting. However the nightmare effect played a lot of cards that were useless without Tortured Existence so I decided to test out what happened if you put a Tortured Existence "engine" into a deck that plays cards that are actually good on their own.

So this is the bastardized hybrid between the two decks i have been testing on MTGO over the weekend, it is most likely worse than the gate but i felt like sharing it anyway.

Lands:
18 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog

Creatures:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tombstalker
2 Shriekmaw

Artifacts:
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Spells:
4 Tortured Existence
4 Smother
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy

Some notes on card choices:
No wastelands, the deck is very hungry for black mana early on and I have not played a single game so far where I felt like I would have had much use for a wasteland. I'm not going to lie and say that the price for getting these online didn't factor in on my choice on not running them.

Stinkweed Imp is surprisingly good, he trades with almost every relevant offensive creature in the format and comes back the next turn to tell you all about it. Also he plays really well together with tortured existence and cabal therapy as well as filling your graveyard with cards for tombstalker. He alsp carries a Jitte pretty well.

Smother instead of Deathmark since there seems to be a lot of wierd random decks as well as a lot of monoblack on MTGO making smother a better choice here.

Tortured existence is really good letting you reuse Gatekeepers, Shriekmaws and Macabres. Four is probably one too much since they are useless in multiples.

Notes on matchups:
I have played a few matches against competetive decks and even more against weird and budget variants so I'm just going to give a short summary of my impressions so far.

Zoo seems favorable, massive amounts of removal paired with recurring creatures seems to be too much for them to handle in the games I have tried so far same goes for the Bant decks I played against.

Played one match against Belcher and it was an easy win as well with duress + therapy stripping his hand.

Played several matches againt burn. Discard, nighthawk and jitte makes this an easy win.

Other mono black aggro and pox seems to be about even.

Random aggro decks are a positive matchup.

I have been stomped by loam decks several matches but a good sideboard probably helps against this. It's probably also a case of me learning how to play against them properly...

I have also lost A LOT of games due to mana screw, I should probably run confidant or something to help out with early draws but that would probably mean I will have to cut Tombstalker wich has been amazing and which I as planning making a 3 or 4-of.

I have noticed several people boarding large amounts grave hate against me resulting in them ending up with a crippled deck and getting smashed by jitte carrying imps or vampires.

To summarize, the deck needs further tweaking but is really fun to play and so far seems to be quite powerful.

jrsthethird

04-11-2010, 07:24 PM

Budget Gate looks pretty good. Everything but Jitte is cheap.

Zoo (http://thestorageanarchist.typepad.com/weblog/WindowsLiveWriter/lt&b.png), maybe Burn.

Yeah looking at this I agree. It's just that in my history of Legacy, I've never been paired against a Zoo deck so I wouldn't have made that connection yet. I've only been playing for a few months but in 5+ tournaments I've never played Zoo...odd.

Michael Keller

04-11-2010, 07:48 PM

Some notes on card choices:
No wastelands, the deck is very hungry for black mana early on and I have not played a single game so far where I felt like I would have had much use for a wasteland. I'm not going to lie and say that the price for getting these online didn't factor in on my choice on not running them.

Stinkweed Imp is surprisingly good, he trades with almost every relevant offensive creature in the format and comes back the next turn to tell you all about it. Also he plays really well together with tortured existence and cabal therapy as well as filling your graveyard with cards for tombstalker. He alsp carries a Jitte pretty well.

Smother instead of Deathmark since there seems to be a lot of wierd random decks as well as a lot of monoblack on MTGO making smother a better choice here.

Tortured existence is really good letting you reuse Gatekeepers, Shriekmaws and Macabres. Four is probably one too much since they are useless in multiples.

Notes on matchups:
I have played a few matches against competetive decks and even more against weird and budget variants so I'm just going to give a short summary of my impressions so far.

Zoo seems favorable, massive amounts of removal paired with recurring creatures seems to be too much for them to handle in the games I have tried so far same goes for the Bant decks I played against.

Played one match against Belcher and it was an easy win as well with duress + therapy stripping his hand.

Played several matches againt burn. Discard, nighthawk and jitte makes this an easy win.

Other mono black aggro and pox seems to be about even.

Random aggro decks are a positive matchup.

I have been stomped by loam decks several matches but a good sideboard probably helps against this. It's probably also a case of me learning how to play against them properly...

I have also lost A LOT of games due to mana screw, I should probably run confidant or something to help out with early draws but that would probably mean I will have to cut Tombstalker wich has been amazing and which I as planning making a 3 or 4-of.

I have noticed several people boarding large amounts grave hate against me resulting in them ending up with a crippled deck and getting smashed by jitte carrying imps or vampires.

To summarize, the deck needs further tweaking but is really fun to play and so far seems to be quite powerful.

You noted there were a lot of games where you got "stomped". To start off, there should be no reason why you are not running four of arguably the best card in the format. That would be Wasteland.

Running Tombstalker is God-awful slow in this deck. You run no Dark Rituals and Abyssal Persecutor is bigger and tramples.

Tortured Existence is flat-out terrible. It's even worse when you run cards like Tombstalker. Why in God's name you want to run Stinkweed Imp is up to you. It is ridiculously slow and serves as no real efficient clock. It *may* give you some synergy with Tortured Existence, but again: You're beating around the bush rather than playing it straight-forward and to the point.

Smother is up to you. I personally don't like it in the deck because I don't like eating it to Daze.

Bojuka Bog is also too slow. I hate having to wait a turn to play a spell, and it just isn't that good against the decks it really should shine against.

I noticed you cut Bitterblossom all together. I would run two as it is far more effective with Jitte than any other card in the deck. It produces threats every turn and becomes a major annoyance.

You really need to run Dark Confidant. It is probably the best overall card in the deck and, well, yeah. I know you're going budget, which is cool and all, but the reason you're getting stomped in those matches you *should* be winning is because of the inherent lack of those critical, key cards.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-11-2010, 09:44 PM

Hollywood, what's your take on Inquisition of Kozilek? (link (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104043&d=1270785727))

Khurtz

04-18-2010, 08:55 AM

So yesterday I tried The Gate at RIT with lackluster results partially due to bad draws but also disappointing sideboard performance and in one instance horrendous play error. My list was this:

4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Knighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Faerie Macabre

3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
2 Smother

4 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
16 Swamp

SB:
1 Faerie Macabre (Reanimator reared it's ugly head and I found this to be a little more effective than Relic and Crypt)
2 Nevinyrral's Disk (As I knew Stax would be there and possibly Enchantress this seemed like a no brainer)
2 Gate to Phyrexia (Once again Stax and later saw Affinity hanging around)
3 Pithing Needle (Versus Goblins and the MUC deck that had been dominating the past few weeks. Shackles is no fun.)
3 Spinning Darkness (Gobbos, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc...)
4 Hymn to Tourach (Belcher and Ad Nauseum were supposed to be there but Ad Nauseum didn't show)

First round was against U/R/W/B Ravager. I was able to overrun him with more relevant threats and a little creature removal here and there on the first game. Second game I blew up his lands with wasteland 2 turns in a row and he got mana screwed.

Second round was against U/W/B Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek control. I made a horrendous play error in the first game by not using Faerie Macabre at the right time and allowing him to sac his foundry to get Sword back. I believe I also drew fairly light on threats as well. Second game I was able to control his resources with a combination of second turn Gate to Phyrexia, 3rd turn Bitterblossom and several well placed Wastelands. Third game I was able to hit him with a Hymn early on that caused some damage and although I was able to control his resources fairly well he resolved Jace the Mind Sculptor while I had only one threat and then with a combination of counters and removal was able to keep me from getting a creature to stick while eventually building up to 12+ counters with Jace. I resolved Nevinyrral's Disk but wouldn't ya know it doesn't hit Planeswalkers :(

Third Round was against Goblins, which I was excited for as it should've been a good matchup. Unfortunately I had to mull down to 6 first game due to lack of land and I ended up keeping a hand without Innocent Blood in the hopes that he wouldn't drop turn 1 Lackey. He did and proceeded to drop more threats than I could keep up with. Game 2 I boarded in Spinning Darkness and Pithing Needle and was able to control his board well enough to get my threat engine going. I had to hard cast Spinning Darkness due to competition between Cabal Therapy and Skeletal Scrying for use of my graveyard and the fact that I was barely getting enough black cards in there to make it active. 3rd round I got in some early control and resolved some decent threats but he proceeded to drop multiple Ringleaders and was able to power out too many goblins to handle, swinging for game with 3 Piledrivers, warchief and chieftain.

Fourth round was against MBC. I drew a threat heavy hand which got controlled by 3 consecutive chainer's edicts, even though I RFG'd 2 with Macabre. I drew some useless creature control and proceeded to get beat down by consume spirit and Planeswalkers. I boarded out Innocent Blood, Smother, 1 Gatekeeper, 1 Jitte in favor of Hymn's and Pithing Needles. I was able to hit with some early Hymn's and duresses that dismantled his hand and I resolved Abyssal Persecutor plus a Macabre to soak up edicts. I proceeded to beat him down into the negatives but drew no way of removing my Persecutor. I drew Jitte and got 2 Swings in before he resolved Staff of Dom and proceeded to tap down my Jitte'd creatures. I then drew about 6 consecutive Swamps while beating him down to -30. Meanwhile he built up about 40-50 mana a turn through massive amounts of swamps and 2 coffers which he used to gain life and draw cards off Staff. Finally he got himself back up to +1 life the turn I drew gatekeeper and was able to finish me off with a Planeswalker. In retrospect I might've used Disk or Gate instead of Pithing Needle however as Disk couldn't hit either of his planeswalkers it seemed wasteful to use it against O stone and Staff of Dom when Pithing Needle was more efficient.

Fifth round was against Fling-A-Tog affinity. I proceeded to pound the deck with Wastelands and creature control the first round and beat in with Jitte'd faerie tokens FTW. Second round I boarded in Spinning Darkness again. Once again Spinning Darkness competed with Therapy and Scrying for use of my yard cards and became an unplayable burden as not enough black cards were hitting my yard. I kept the game controlled but died to a 12 point flung atog a turn or 2 before swinging for lethal. 3rd round I was able to draw some better control and resolve Persecutor along with Knighthawk. I steadily beat him into the negatives and was able to pull out a win on turn 4 of the 5 turn limit after time was called.

Good stuff:

-Gate to Phyrexia was pretty much amazing and I wish I'd run 3 copies. Only drew once though so more testing may be in order.
-Hymn to Tourach almost proved it should be maindecked with the kind of advantages it gave in the MBC and Thopter/Sword matches.
-Bitterblossom was never really a terrible draw and definitely came to the rescue more than once
-Jitte was teh ph34red and won a few by itself
-Knighthawk was beast and I was never sad to see him in my hand. The only issue is that he seemed to get locked into standstills with my opponents bigger guys where they refused to swing making me unable to utilize the life gain feature.
-Persecutor was amazing, except for that one game where my deck decided to go environmentalist for 6 turns and give back to nature instead of drawing useful cards, but that was a bit of a statistical outlier.
-Faerie Macabre did some amazing things and would've been more amazing if I'd gotten my timing down a little better/actually read some of the cards my opponent was playing : - P

Bad stuff:

-Disk was highly ineffective and most likely needs to be replaced with Oblivion Stone which comes out a little quicker and still pops turn 5 just like disk, but can actually hit those damn planeswalkers.
-Spinning Darkness- competed too much with my other yard manipulation cards and actually lost me games by being slow and too often dead. IMO needs to be cut for something a little faster.
- Innocent Blood definitely did not shine as everytime I drew the damn thing my opponent had something like Matron or Arcbound Worker on the board and I had something like Knighthawk or a Persecutor I didn't want to sac or I had tokens but exchanging a token for a Matron didn't really seem worthwhile. Granted I barely seemed to draw this card for some reason but it didn't seem to fit in well due to a lack of higher quality creatures on my opponents end that I could hit. Not saying it needs to be cut, just that it ended up being really disappointing and needed to be paired with more spot removal.
-Bokuka Bog- I...HATE...THIS....CARD. I had one copy and I literally drew it about 80% of the time. Every time I drew it, it was useless and in some cases really messed up my land drops. I suppose if your meta is 43 land heavy it might be worth it but in a mixed meta this card is GARBAGE. Cut.

I found myself never looking back on cutting deathmark but this is due to my meta containing at best 1 Zoo/Survival and maybe 1-2 elf decks so it was really a meta call.

Smother was good enough and didn't really suck or shine.

Scrying was useful about 70% of the time but I kept drawing it at awkward times, like turn 2, when I really needed more removal or discard.

My addition of a 4th Therapy was due to my disbelief that this deck has a good matchup against Belcher or Ad Nauseum. I'm probably a little too paranoid about turn 1 wins but I've played Belcher enough to know that if you don't do something your first turn against it you're pretty much screwed and relying on 4 Duress and 3 Cabal Therapy(which you have a 50/50 or worse chance of using effectively) just wasn't that appealing. I really wanted to toss in Mindbreak trap but couldn't find stuff to cut and didn't have an extra set (my girlfriend was running my set in another deck).

All in all I do like how the deck plays but it needs a little more tweaking for my meta. Probably cutting that extra Therapy and possibly scrying in favor of something else. Also Bojuka Bog, may it burn in hell, may end up becoming a swamp or a plains or temple of the false god or something that isn't Bojuka Bog :mad:.

I'll go ahead and weigh in on Inquisition of Kozilek quick. I don't like it. The point of discard is to hit cards that your opponent is comboing off with and since it can't hit Tendrils, Ad Nauseum, Empty the Warrens, Belcher, Dream Halls, Conflux, Natural Order, Replenish or other relevant cards like Force of Will, Smokestack, Fireblast, Fact or Fiction, Planeswalkers (minus Jace Belern), Wrath, Tombstalker, Ringleader, Siege-Gang, Kiki-Jiki, or Damnation it seems terrible to me. Too limited for what the purpose of discard is supposed to be and definitely NOT a good replacement for Duress. I'm not a fan of opening up with that card against belcher and not being able to remove their win condition.

I probably won't be playing this guy for a little bit but I will try tweaking it and I will probably run it again in a month or so. Let me know what you think of this report in the meantime and if you have any suggestions for what to try over Spinning Darkness and what your opinion on O Stone vs. Disk is. Thanks for reading!

1maarten1

04-18-2010, 11:17 AM

This is the latest list i saw from you Hollywood:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [US] Duress
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament

Is this still the same? I think the Bojuka bogs have changed right? Maybe its possible to test the 3-3-3 split, where you cut 2 bogs and 1 duress, and add 3 of the 'new' duresses. I like the sb btw! I think i might be building this deck soon! :). I'll start testing it asap, and let you know my results!

Mystical_Jackass

04-19-2010, 11:46 AM

Personally, I'd go:

+4 Dystopia (Zoo, Enchantress, Aggro Loam ... elves, soldiers, white stax, etc.)
+4 Engineered Plague (Tribal)

I see why you'd run them... but I think I'd just take out the sacraments and disks, either too slow or don't do enough imo.
Plague is sooo good against tribal, and Dystopia's never let me down when it comes out against some of the decks I've mentioned, it'll single handedly win those matches sometimes.

1maarten1

04-19-2010, 01:46 PM

ShiftyKapree

04-25-2010, 05:20 PM

I've currently been toying around with the deck myself and found it to very interesting. Here's my list and tell me what you think of it.
19 lands:
8 fetchs
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp

Creatures
4x Dark Confident
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Tombstalker

Spells
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Hymn To Tourach
2x Umezawa's Jitte

I think the deck handles fine against the aggro match. Hymn to Tourach def eat's peoples hands away. I thought about cutting 2 fetches for more basic land but I am still up in the air about it. SB is being worked on.

Captain Hammer

04-29-2010, 02:19 PM

I think this deck would be just about perfect if it simply played Smother instead of a narrow card like Deathmark that is completely useless in tons of matchups.

There is a grand total of one card that Deathmark hits that Smother can't. Baneslayer Angel, which barely sees any play in legacy anyways.

Where as, I can list 50 different legacy played creatures that Smother hits that Deathmark can't, and hits at instant speed at that. Decks like Goblins and Merfolk simply laugh at Deathmark.

Also Inquisition of Kozilek>>Duress. Being able to hit Tarmogoyfs, Lackeys and such is good. Where as Duress gives you very narrow options on what it can hit against tons of matchups, and against goblins, Duress is straight up dead. With your wastelands, there was little chance your opponent was going to be able to cast cards with cc higher than 4 anyways.

Basically, I think Hollywood should update his OP's list to this, and then the deck would be perfect...

//Creatures
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Abyssal Persecutor
[4x] Gatekeeper of Malikir
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Vampire Nighthawk

//Spells
[4x] Innocent Blood
[3x] Smother
[4x] Inquisition of Kozilek
[4x] Wasteland
[3x] Cabal Therapy

//Artifacts and Enchantments
[3x] Bitterblossom
[3x] Umezawa's Jitte

//Mana
[16x] Swamp
[1x] Bojuka Bog

I'm also a HUGE fan of Hymn to Tourach and would love to see that card in the list somewhere, perhaps in place of a Jitte, a Bitterblossom, a Cabal Therapy and/or a Vampire Nighthawk.

Chubu!

04-29-2010, 03:04 PM

@ Captain Hammer:

If you're happy with your list, then run with it. Seems like quite a playable list to me.

Inquisition of Kozilek>>Duress

I'd call this meta-dependent. There's already a thread talking about Inquisition vs. Duress vs. Thoughtseize on the forum, so I won't go into what-hits-what here, but I'm sticking with Duress. Recently, I learned just how good Duress can be game 2 vs. Blue, when one may likely see Misdirection out of the board. Countertop (w/ New Jace), Reanimator, and Merfolk all see play in my local meta, and I like going in to game 2 with 2 discard cards (Duress, Therapy) that don't put me at risk if my opponent responds with Misdirection. I agree that Inquisition hits more cards than Duress, the obvious ones being creature cards, but I choose to rely on my removal to take care of the creatures. Still, I don't think Inquisition is a "wrong" choice.

I'm also a HUGE fan of Hymn to Tourach and would love to see that card in the list somewhere, perhaps in place of a Jitte, a Cabal Therapy and a Bitterblossom.

I'd love to maindeck it, too, but can't decide what to cut. The most common question I get, when people look at my deck, is "Why isn't this (Hymn) in the main?"

Also of note, the following are "problem cards" that I see quite a bit:

Bitterblossom
Humility
Planeswalkers
Umezawa's Jitte
Iona (duh...)
Counterbalance/Top

There are more, but those come to mind first, and represent big headaches for me when they stick.

My current list, for reference:

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
1 Skeletal Scrying

3 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Bitterblossom
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sadistic Sacrament

bakofried

05-01-2010, 05:03 PM

@Hollywood:
I'm sorry, I can't remember if someone has mentioned it or not, but have you tried a single copy of Volrath's Stronghold?

Kangaxx

05-01-2010, 05:23 PM

Hey Hollywood. At first I didn't want to go public with this tech but I figured I couldn't afford tabernacles anyways so I said screw it. ;)

Here's a list that utilizes The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale which I find surprising that no one has ever mentioned this card. It not only allows you to sac Persecutor to end the game during your upkeep, but Confidants as well, as well as do all the nasty stuff, well, that Tabernacles do. Here's my tech that I've been winning with.

UB The Cathedral

// Lands
3 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [BD] Island (3)
4 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [U] Sinkhole
3 [BRB] Dark Ritual
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [5E] Zur's Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask

Basically I implemented stuff to support Tabernacles, mana denial and such. In the form of Stifles, Sinkholes and Wastelands. I've always had a fetish for Zur's Weirding and mana denial happens to work great with the card. The idea actually started out as a Zur's Weirding deck and turned into this. It also has alot of cute tricks like Cabal Therapy with Wierding. SoLaS and Jitte offset the life loss from Wierding, etc. as well as stall the game with life gain while digging for a way to sac Persecutor. The rest of the deck is just pretty standard stuff, that I don't have the time or effort to explain.

Well, there it is. I didn't want to go public with this tech, but I figured I'd share since I'm probably never going to get it built IRL becuase I have alot of other cooler decks I'm working on. =P

Cavius The Great

05-01-2010, 05:58 PM

Hollywood, i always liked your decks, but why aren't u splashing green for Goyf? I mean, he's really good.

bakofried

05-02-2010, 12:28 AM

What's your latest version of the deck?

Jon Stewart

05-05-2010, 08:45 PM

I've been playing various versions of black aggro decks for what seems like a lifetime now. I think the list in the OP is solid with just three simple revisions...

1.) Up the land count, esp the black mana source count. 20 land (4 Wasteland) is too low for a deck whose most reliable threat has a casting cost of 4, and whose best tempo threat has a casting cost of BBB (well BB + Kicker B). 22 is the bare minimum.

2.) Replace Deathmark with a card that's not dead against Merfolk and Goblins, like Doom Blade or Diabolic Edict, or if it must be 1cc, then Ghastly Demise is a solid option, even Vendetta isn't a bad call. The bonus with Edict is that you can even use it on yourself to get rid of Persecutor.

3.) Make room for Hymn to Tourach somewhere. That card wins me so many games singlehandedly. It doesn't matter who the opponent is. Robbing them of two of their higher casting cost cards at random completely screws up their game plan, virtually every single time. At the very least, it forces them to prematurely expend their Force of Will or Daze, almost every time. Plus, this deck desperately needs more things it can cast on turn 2.

Maybe something like this...

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Fairie Macabre

4 Inquisition/Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
3 Diabolic Edict/Doom Blade
1 Skeletal Scrying

2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Fairie Macabre
2 Bitterblossom
3 Deathmark
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sadistic Sacrament

I'm not sold on Sadistic Sacrament yet, but a lot of people who's opinions I respect seem to play the card in their sideboards.

KaraZorEl

05-05-2010, 11:35 PM

I was going through my stuff today, and I found a card that might work well with this deck.

Accursed Centaur

1x Black
2/2
-When Accursed Centaur comes into play, sacrifice a creature.

Mystical_Jackass

05-06-2010, 12:30 AM

Innocent blood and Therapy are in the deck, how does a one-drop with a drawback like that benefit the deck? That's a bad card man, take Lacerator any day over that card or simply play Fleshbag instead at that point.
Careful about including tabernacle and all the other fun stuff; the mana base was always solid running monos which is one of the few reasons not to splash green but your just opening yourself for more waste hate.

@Jon Stewart

Replace Deathmark... Doom Blade or Diabolic Edict, or if it must be 1cc, then Ghastly Demise is a solid option, even Vendetta

Make room for Hymn to Tourach somewhere

Agreed. Hymn is so good it's hard to see a mono black aggro deck not using it. Deathmark can't be maindeck imo, your taking a gamble that you'll even be able to use it, Engineered Plague is the same way, it's so good against some decks but as much as you get caught up thinking of all the areas it excels, people tend to midigate all the matchups its dead ya know.

Chubu!

05-10-2010, 01:00 PM

The list I have been testing lately:

19 Swamp
3 Wasteland

4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Smother
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre

4 Abyssal Persecutor

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Bitterblossom
3 Engineered Plague
1 Hymn to Tourach

The board is based on my local meta, which includes several decks vs. which Engineered Plague is a nice choice, and multiple Graveyard-dependent decks. (Pox, Reanimator, Survival, etc...) Combo is present, but, as luck would have it, I have yet to face a Belcher or Storm player.

Some thoughts that have led me to this build:

22 mana sources - I don't like going below this number. I cut a Wasteland for a Swamp to make Gatekeepers come down that much easier. Personal choice.

18 threats - This is a minimum. I say 'threat' instead of 'creature' to include Bitterblossom in this number, for those that run it maindeck. Less than 18 started to feel anemic to me during testing, especially with the prevalence of removal in the current meta. In fact, this is why Hymn is only a 3-of, instead of a 4-of.

So far, Inquisition is doing well in testing. I am nervous about opening up to Misdirection, games 2 and 3, but I'll go with it for now. I am considering making room in the board for at least 3 Duress, to account for this. Therapy, while great, was the 1-drop I least wanted to see, so I cut one to make room for Hymns.

Wyrath the Great

05-13-2010, 12:39 AM

I've been beaten by Reanimator time after time (thanks to Iona), so I decided to try a splash. This is the two lists that I have been working on (with red and white as splash for the respective lists):

BR (Gateless) The Gate

4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Faerie Macabre
18

1 Dead and Gone
4 Innocent Blood
2 Burning Wish
2Terminate
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt
21

3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
2 Mountain
7 Swamp
21

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dead and Gone
1 Meltdown
1 Perish
1 Reanimate
1 Earthquake
1 Decompose
1 Damnation/Breath of Darigaaz /Consuming Vapors/Thought Hemorrhage/Ruination/Firespout/Anarchy/Hull Breach (add a Bayou to the list instead of a Swamp)/????

BW (Gateless) The Gate

3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre
16

3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Bitterblossom
4 Duress
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
23

4 BW fetch
4 Scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
2 Plains
6 Swamp
21

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mask of Memory/Lightning Greaves/Specter’s Shroud or Unscythe, Killer of Kings (lulz)

As I play on MTGO exclusively the decks to beat are the following (so please base your (hopefully) constructive criticism on that):

1. Reanimator
2. Death and Taxes
3. ANT
4. Goblins
5. Ichorid

For a better overview of the online "meta" see this article:

http://puremtgo.com/articles/look-legacy-april-29-may-4-month-review

Any feedback would be most welcome.

jrsthethird

05-13-2010, 01:49 AM

BW (Gateless) The Gate

3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre
16

3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Bitterblossom
4 Duress
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
23

4 BW fetch
4 Scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
2 Plains
6 Swamp
21

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mask of Memory/Lightning Greaves/Specter’s Shroud or Unscythe, Killer of Kings (lulz)

How has this been working for you? I'm not going to bother reading the article, but I think it's well-placed in that meta, based on the decks you listed. I have a similar build and one of my friends plays Reanimator, I think I have about 70% matchup against him. I've played against it in tournaments and went 2-1 (lost a game 3 to a turn 1 Inkwell =/). Also I think the deck works pretty well against combo (I beat Dredge and ANT at a 100+ tournament last month). Here's my list:

22 Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
7 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

18 Spells
3 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Duress

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Innocent Blood
2 Perish

Not sure on the board, I see more Lands than I'm comfortable with and Greaves is good there, but I'm not sure if Perish is overkill or not. Chalice doesn't seem good because we run a pretty spread out curve from 1-4 so playing it for 0 seems good against ANT but at 1 it shuts off our discard. Also, why Arena instead of Bob? Afraid of taking 4? hahah it's not that bad! SOLS, Nighthawk, and Jitte are your friend (especially SOLS on Nighthawk, gain 7 when attacking?), and he's easy enough to get rid of when you're low on life.

Oiolosse

05-13-2010, 07:28 AM

@ jrsthethird -- I have been testing a deck very very similar to your BW one there...let me post it quickly

4 bitterblossom
3 Elspeth

2 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Basilisk Collar

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt

4 StP
4 Vindicate

3 cabal therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

22 Land

I know that it doesnt utilize Persecutor but I chose to go more controllish with Elspeth and a bit more discard. Jotun Grunt is a floater card, could make it Nighthawk for a try. 4 Vindicate may seem like a lot but it hits everything. Not having a sac effect sucks against shroud but if my discard slows them enough then blossom can block pretty well and jitte circumvents Iona. Stillmoon Cavalier may seem like a shit pick but I love it. It is resilient as hell and wears with SoFI is pretty much invincible.

denial

05-13-2010, 11:53 PM

@Oiolosse

you know thats a completely different deck right and has nothing to do with the gate right ?

:eyebrow:

Oiolosse

05-15-2010, 02:09 AM

@Oiolosse

you know thats a completely different deck right and has nothing to do with the gate right ?

:eyebrow:

of course :) -- I was responding to jrthethird

鳥肉さん

05-15-2010, 04:55 PM

What's the reason for most of these lists not running a combination of Abyssal Persecutor and Tombstalker? I find that Stalker is a much better card than Dark Confidant (in this deck) because it makes a huge and immediate impact on the game. Also, i see it as an alternative because the two are rarely run together.

Giggioz

05-18-2010, 07:47 AM

Hi folks,

first of all i want to thank Hollywood for sharing his creation. I loved the deck at first glance and last sunday i brought it to a legacy tournament with 40 people.

My english is not good and i have no too much time to write a reportage, but, yes, i did TOP 8 with the deck!

Round 1 vs Rock 2-0
Easy win

Round 2 vs Enchantress 2-1
Rough match. Nevinyrral's Disk is a must.

Round 3 vs sort of Rock 2-0
Easy win

Round 4 vs mono Red 2-0
I was thinking it would have been hard, instead thanks to Jitte, Vampire, discards and no fetch effects, i won.

Round 5 ID

Round 6 ID

Quarter finals vs same Enchantress 0-2
He wins game 1 easily. Post side i have good cards against him and hope to do the same i did before in swiss.
Game 2 i duress him and see 2 runed halo, 2 solitary confinement and replensih.
I chose replenish. He doesn't have WW for runed halo (he knows i have sadistic sacrament in sideboard) so i can cast the sorcery and may be i do the mistake to exile 3 of 4 winning conditions he has instead to choice 3 of 4 elephant grass that lock me hard if in play (what to do you think of this choice?).

During the game i make him discard almost all but he have time to cast runed halo on sadistic sacrament (which i drew...).

The game stalls for a while, with him at 3 and elephant grass and me with a lot of creatures and 2 dark confidant looking for Nevinyrral's Disk is... he can't mantain elephant grass, goes in top deck mode, and finds Replenish... game over with a bit of disappointment for me.

I posted this thread to share with you my list and make a couple of considerations:

Lands:

18 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures:

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Dark Confidant

Spells:

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach

Artifacts:

2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

2 Innocent Blood
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Perish
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Tendrils of Corruption (i would test Extirpate or even Shadow of Doubt !!! )

Variations respect to the lists i saw in this thread:

- 3 Wasteland instead of 4 because 3 black mana at turn 3 are important.
- Smother over Deathmark for the reasons that all already have expressed ...and instant speed over sorcery speed matters :)
- Diabolic Edict over Innocent Blood beacuse of instant speed and because it doesn't require me to sac a creature if i don't want
Furthemore, Smother and Diabolic avoid Chalice of the Void to 1 :)
- 3 Hymn to Tourach and 2 Jitte instead of 2 Hymns and 3 Jitte because i'm more scared of control and combo than aggro and because Hymn helps even against aggro

Sideboard is pretty common and self explicative, i have just 2 slots that i would tune up: maybe extirpate is a good cards to play now because i saw a lot of counterbalance decks (our discards are not enough, they play full sets of Sensei and Counterbalance) and thopter's combo decks...

Well, i would finish making some considerations to improve the deck :
- maybe 2-4 fetch lands instead of 2-4 swamps could (even if a little bit) make our late game draws better
- 2-3 mox diamonds could allow us to make some very good turns 1, like Confidant, Hymns, Duress+Cabal or turn 3 Abyssal... we should try them instead 2-3 swamps and see if it wastes our mana base...

I hope you understand what i wanted to say :)
Please comment my thoughts.

See you and thanks again to Hollywood,

Luigi.

Chubu!

05-19-2010, 01:39 PM

@ Luigi:

Congratulations! A question:

How has Perish in the board worked out for you? In which matchups do you side it in? I have been testing Dystopia in the board, and am decently pleased with it. I will stick with it, for now.

What's your plan vs. zoo? My current build is quite similar to yours (it's posted a few posts back) and I feel like the Zoo matchup is right on the fence, as is Death & Taxes and UW Tempo. Dystopia definitely comes in in all three of these matchups. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

My current sideboard, for reference:

1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
3 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void (Lots of reanimator in my local meta)
3 Sadistic Sacrament

Giggioz

05-20-2010, 07:18 AM

Hi Chubu!,
thanks for the reply.

Perish is strong, Dystopia too:

Against fast zoo decks with Nactal, Tarmos, Knights (and Terravore!), perish it's usually a 2x1 or a 3x1. I've never tried Dystopia but it apparently can do the same for some life points, but it seems slow.

Against Death & Taxes probably Dystopia makes its work better (more white creatures than green).

Same for UW control decks (it gets rid of Elspeth, Humilty, Moat...).

Against Enchantress maybe Dystopia is too slow (they draw a lot and the can sacrifice minor enchantments), perish is not a must in this match up but i side it in anyway because i have no better cards... even if it destroy only one enchantress would be good. Mh...

Against Elves! perish is a must have.

We could continue to speak about these cards for a while... the answer is that it depends from the meta.

While i'm writing here on this post i'm just thinking that maybe Dystopia seems to represent a solution to some very critical situations (humilty, elspeth, moat...) but i have to say that for this i have Disks... instead Perish is good against cards that we should be able to manage in other ways...

Maybe Dystopia deserves one shot :)

What do u think about my suggestions in the previous posts about mox diamond and fetchs?

Regards,
Luigi.

Chubu!

05-20-2010, 03:29 PM

What do u think about my suggestions in the previous posts about mox diamond and fetchs?

As far as using fetches to thin land is concerned, I'm not a fan. IMO, the improvement in draws (according to the stats) is so slight that it does not justify the life loss. That's me.

As far as Mox Diamond, I'm also not so sure. I feel like 22 lands is the minimum with this deck, and the card disadvantage with Mox Diamond would create some situations where we would mana-screw ourselves. If you were to cut some non-land cards for Mox Diamond, then it could work. Of course, you'd also be out some precious spells. I've noticed that Eva Green/Vesper Green builds tend to run about 21 lands, plus a full set of Rituals. You could cut 2 lands and 2 *somethings* for a set of Mox Diamonds, but I would hate even to cut the two *somethings*.

I played a 16-20 person Legacy weekly tournament last night and got stomped pretty bad. I lost round 1 to Lands, 0-2. I made a really stupid mulligan call game 2 when I kept a hand without Leyline. Ironically, this was the second time I have played this person, and the second time I have made a huge play mistake while playing against him. He probably thinks I'm a moron, at this point. ¡Ha!

Round 2 bye. :(

I lost round 3 to a very controlling build of Dorian Rock, running maindeck ensnaring bridge and Enlightened Tutors. 0-2

Round 4 I lost to New Horizons 2-1. My deck played beautifully all three games, feeding me lands when I needed them, spells when I didn't, and lots of hand disruption to take care of his permission spells. Both of my losses were due to Jace the Mind Sculptor, well, "Jace-ing" me. /Sad face/ /Tail between legs/

My overall record was 1-3 matches, 1-6 games. I dropped before round 5 and went home, to see if I could find any scraps of my self-esteem lost between the couch cushions, or something. At least all of my opponents were very friendly. :)

What's to learn from this? Well, Dystopia was not a bad sideboard call for the meta, but it was far from the best one, either. There were actually quite a few decks I could have beaten, I just didn't happen to play any of them. I agree that a board sweeper may be a sideboard necessity, but I'm actually debating going all the way and running Oblivion Stone. I have been Jace'd to death in one other match, and hand disruption is not always an adequate answer to Jace, as they can (and will) float one on top of the library with Brainstorm, Top, etc.

Any thoughts on Oblivion Stone vs. Nev's Disk? Both feel rather clunky and awkward to me, but such is the drawback, when one runs monoblack.

bakofried

05-24-2010, 02:34 AM

Has Hollywood given up on this deck? I hope not, I really wanted to see how this deck will evolve.

bakofried

06-01-2010, 06:14 PM

Bump.

So is anyone still testing with this? Is it turning out well? Not so well? Any reports, suggestions, ideas, anything?

Chubu!

06-02-2010, 01:26 PM

So is anyone still testing with this? Is it turning out well? Not so well? Any reports, suggestions, ideas, anything?

Although I haven't had much success of late, I am still messing with the deck. My current list is posted on the last page, I believe. I have worked in room for 3 Hymn to Tourach, being my most significant change from the OP list. Also, I am running a 2-2 split of Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, in place of Duress. I am very happy with that change. As far as fitting in Hymn goes, I am always happy to see a Hymn in the early game, although sometimes I feel that the deck is a bit light on threats. (I'm running 18.) I have lost some "should have won"-type matches lately, (R/B Gobs and Eva Green come to mind) which has frustrated me. I want a greater threat density, and am currently testing running only 3 Smother, in favor of a 4th Gatekeeper. I've also tested lists more along the tempo/pikula lines, some which splash white, some which do not. Rituals are nice, but I do not want to cut lands to fit them in, and therefore it means cutting precious spells.

Ultimately, I am going to put the deck down for a while, as-is, and pick it up again later. I do not feel as if the deck is Tier 1, but it remains hugely fun to play, and I do not want to frustrate myself trying to make a Tier 1 deck, when it is simply not going to happen. Cards that are really screwing me, lately, when they get played include:

Planeswalkers. I see new Jace from time to time, and his Fateseal ability often lets my opponent stall me long enough to ramp his ultimate. Ouch. I have been boarding Oblivion Stones, as a result.

Sword of Light and Shadow. No explanation necessary. With Stoneforge Mystic being quite prominent, this comes down more often than I'd like to see. (Which is never.) Again, Oblivion Stone.

Sower of Temptation. Dodges Smother/Deathmark, sort of "shuts off" our Edict effects, by giving the opponent a convenient sac. outlet. Really sucks when they take a Nighthawk.

Speaking of Nighthawks, this card has been one of the stars of the deck. I'm almost never bummed to topdeck one, and I feel like it is very worth inclusion as a 4-of. Frankly, it's just a fun creature to run, and I even like the artwork. Good job, designer(s) of this card.

Overall, I will keep this deck and run it from time to time. I think it has potential to win tourneys, depending on the luck of the matchups (duh), but is probably not going to be a DTB anytime in the near future. That's just fine with me. The deck is fun, competitive, and not nearly as expensive to build as many of the decks it can beat (Survival, Reanimator, Zoo, etc...) I also feel like it has surprisingly good game vs. many of the current DTB. Hell, I may even cut the Hymns and go back to a list I was running earlier, simply for the fun factor. (I miss Skeletal Scrying, and drawing three on turn 4.) Great deck for those (like me) for whom "fun" doesn't necessitate "Tier 1." I will continue to follow this thread and test cards that other people have tested and recommend. I like the archetype (monoblack aggro-control) quite a bit.

As a final note, I have piled almost 20 goblins in my opponent's yard, on a couple of occasions. This matchup has become a sort of "solitaire" for me, in testing. Anyone else care to weigh in with some numbers? ;-)

ImpinAintEasy

06-02-2010, 04:06 PM

I've been messing around with version of this deck online (MTGO) for several weeks now and I love it. I might get flamed, but I splashed bayou to run tarmos and have access to sb cards like grip.

I think it shouldn't be abandoned, but I do think it might need some type of splash, although I'm not sure green is the way to go.

The problem I always find is a late TD discard spells is always unwanted and the deck doesn't seem to be fast enough at times. Maybe I am just missing blue, who knows.

Jace and SofLaS are all over the online meta so I see them being huge problems. I have put needles in sb to help with these issues.

I have no hard core testing data as most of my games are in the tournament practice room. I have won a few 2 man events but thats nothing to write home about.

markbris

06-02-2010, 04:11 PM

danielcrocker

06-02-2010, 04:52 PM

I played around with it for a while but it just seemed to be not strong enough. Like Impin said, I felt like the deck was slow as well.

Edit: I'm toying around with a white splash, but its closer to Deadguy than the gate. I think the deck needs a splash though.

This deck is actually pretty effective without a splash ....my friend had been playing nothing but different versions of this deck for 3 years lol.

i suggest using Consuming Vapors ... its pretty good

Jon Stewart

06-02-2010, 04:58 PM

ImpinAintEasy

06-02-2010, 05:07 PM

In a format filled with brokenness (Ichorid, Reanimator, Belcher, hell even Elfcombo), I feel like this deck plays a little too fair and suffers for it. There is nothing at all explosive about anything the deck does (most builds don't even play Dark Ritual or Hymn for godsake), and really, I've found that it's not even all that synergic (it's creatures all clog the 3cc and 4cc slots unfortunately, which is a bummer).

The list I've been running has 2 hymns, but I completely see your point. It is just a fancy turn your creature sideways and attack deck. When I do win it is many times without Persecutor anyways. I'd almost rather cut down on the creatures, run blue and dig for the deck's goodness and protect. Maybe it's the thresh player in me sneaking out! At that point you lose focus of the point of the deck however.

Oh and btw, it folds to Reanimator naming black.

I will be doing some more messing around with a list splashing some type of color.

AlterEgo

06-08-2010, 02:28 PM

Oh and btw, it folds to Reanimator naming black.

That's precisely what I run Faerie Macabre for.

This is my first post here, although I followed the thread from the start - and I must say I LOVE it!
Anyway, my list is similar to Chubu!'s latest suggestion:

4x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Bitterblossom
4x Dark Confidant
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Vampire Nighthawk
-> 17 creature (21 with Gatekeeper)

2x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
-> 9x discard

3x Diabolic Edict
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Innocent Blood
-> 10x sacc-removal

1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
-> 2x equipment

3x Wasteland
19x Swamp
-> 22x land

Some Notes:
- SoLaS instead of 2nd Jitte, because I tend to draw both equipment or none at all (and currently only have one of each)
- 3/3 of Blood and Edict, because I still can't decide which is better. Both have their pros and cons
- Bitterblossom - it's card advantage, isn't it?
- Duress > Inquisition, because most of the time I want them to discard key spells - creatures rarely stay on the 'field for a long time. But I do play 3-4 Inquisitions in the side.

Chubu!

06-18-2010, 11:02 PM

I've been playing with the archetype a bit, as of late. I have been testing a couple of different lists, both without maindeck Hymn to Tourach. Why? I felt like the inclusion of Hymn was stretching the deck too thin. From the start, what made this deck fun to play for me was its removal. Kill creatures; kill lots of creatures, drop your own, turn them sideways, repeat. While Hymn is an amazing card, and rarely ever a "bad" card, per se, I felt as if I wasn't getting the mileage out of it that I'd hoped. After some testing, I have two rather different lists both with their respective strengths and weaknesses.

First, a more familiar list:
19 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Executioner's Capsule

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Smother

4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre

4 Abyssal Persecutor

This list is the closer of the two to the lists suggested by the OP, Hollywood. Why Executioner's capsule as a 1-of? Well, it's a 1-drop, it's a headache for reanimator (which may have just ceased to exist as a commonly-played deck), and it's more removal. This list is strong vs. Thresh, New Horizons, Merfolk, Combo, Reanimator, etc... (Note that my board includes Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague, Hymn to Tourach, Sadistic Sacrament, and Oblivion Stone.)

...and a somewhat different list:
11Swamp
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland

4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Jitte
3 Bitterblossom

2 Fleshbag Marauder

4 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Shriekmaw

3 Tombstalker

This list does away with Bob, due to lifeloss from the higher-cc cards, and his propensity to be removed before providing any card advantage. It runs no Smother, in favor of Shriekmaw. It runs Dark Rituals, to support its higher-cc duders and add the element of Ritual-fueled explosiveness that is one of the trademarks of black, as a color. It is stronger against Zoo and Countertop builds (somewhat,) but weaker vs. archetypes like New Horizons, Tribal, and Reanimator. Basically, it is a bit more like Pikula-type builds, but without Hymns or Sinkholes in the maindeck. The list is nowhere near optimized, but it represents an idea with which I have been experimenting. Basically, you just stall with removal until you can land a fatty, then you turn said fatty sideways a few times and then your opponent shakes your hand. That's the theory, at least... ;-)

I have also messed with splashing white, which basically led me back to black-splash Death & Taxes. (Black for Thoughtseize, Confidant, and Tidehollow Sculler,) green, which led to Eva-Green, and both, which led back to Rock. Basically, splashing a color fundamentally alters the balance of the list, to the point that it wants to change greatly, in order to maximize the resources available in the splashed color.

As far as current state of the deck goes, it's hard to tell. The banning of Mystical Tutor potentially eliminates two of the more common and stronger decks out there, (Reanimator and ANT) so time will tell where this deck will sit when the dust settles. I definitely feel as if we need a better answer to Zoo, in order to be competitive. (Perhaps, if reanimator falls from grace, we can cut maindeck Faerie Macabre for ????) Perish out of the board, while nice, isn't enough on its own to throw the balance of the match in our favor. And while the Zoo m/u isn't unwinnable, I feel as if it's definitely not in our favor.

Thoughts?

jrsthethird

06-19-2010, 01:55 AM

If you're running Fleshbag, Shriekmaw, and Innocent Blood with fetches you should consider Grim Discovery. Also, adding Phyrexian Rager provides for maximum abuse of Grim Discovery.

This is similar to what I'm doing in Standard, although in that format the speed is slightly more forgivable, and I use Wall of Omens to gain massive card advantage with Grim Discovery, which I suppose would be an option in a W-splash build.

1maarten1

06-21-2010, 04:35 AM

That's precisely what I run Faerie Macabre for.

This is my first post here, although I followed the thread from the start - and I must say I LOVE it!
Anyway, my list is similar to Chubu!'s latest suggestion:

4x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Bitterblossom
4x Dark Confidant
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Vampire Nighthawk
-> 17 creature (21 with Gatekeeper)

2x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
-> 9x discard

3x Diabolic Edict
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Innocent Blood
-> 10x sacc-removal

1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
-> 2x equipment

3x Wasteland
19x Swamp
-> 22x land

Some Notes:
- SoLaS instead of 2nd Jitte, because I tend to draw both equipment or none at all (and currently only have one of each)
- 3/3 of Blood and Edict, because I still can't decide which is better. Both have their pros and cons
- Bitterblossom - it's card advantage, isn't it?
- Duress > Inquisition, because most of the time I want them to discard key spells - creatures rarely stay on the 'field for a long time. But I do play 3-4 Inquisitions in the side.

This list came in 2nd in a tournament recently, was it you? :)

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36613

AlterEgo

06-21-2010, 05:20 AM

Michael Keller

06-21-2010, 02:53 PM

Pretty obvious, isn't it?

Yes, it was me, but I'm not proud of it.
I made so many misplays, I should have gone like 2:3 or 3:2 instead of 4:1 (only lost against the Bant deck that went 1st in the first match of the tournament - and I could have won this one!)

Decks that are capable of winning games (effectively on autopilot) based on poor decision-making shows how resilient they can be. When I first designed the concept for this deck, I decided to utilize cards that worked very well on their own merit, rather than simply using cards that require situational tendencies. That is what makes it so multilateral; a very rare adjective used to describe mono-black builds.

Of course, it still has its flaws. The fact it operates using a single color can be a problem because of a lack of options outside the realm of the color black.

AlterEgo

06-21-2010, 03:36 PM

That's what I meant to say - me becoming 2nd proves one of two things: Either I had a boatload of luck or the deck itself is good as hell.

Anyway - how far do you think we're away from becoming an "established deck"?
"The Gate" is becoming more and more popular...

dahcmai

06-21-2010, 05:50 PM

Michael Keller

06-22-2010, 12:11 PM

It does have a problem with a decent Zoo player. I kept running into the problem of being one turn too late. Pridemage is just a pain since it sets you back a turn and Grim Tutor puts you behind in life by one lightning bolt worth. I always ended up being just a turn off with last combo piece in hand as I died. I was running 3 edicts and 3 gatekeepers and it didn't seem like enough.

If you run Deathmark in the main like I do, Pridemage becomes an afterthought very quickly. Of course, a lot of people don't like playing Deathmark because they feel it just doesn't warrant spots in the first sixty cards. I, however, feel otherwise.

Mystical_Jackass

06-22-2010, 12:58 PM

When I first designed the concept for this deck, I decided to utilize cards that worked very well on their own merit, rather than simply using cards that require situational tendencies.

Deathmark and Macabre are pretty situational in my book.

Anyway - how far do you think we're away from becoming an "established deck"?
"The Gate" is becoming more and more popular...

It's black aggro and it's been around since the beginning of Magic. Only thing that's changed is the name and updated lists.

Michael Keller

06-22-2010, 01:26 PM

Deathmark and Macabre are pretty situational in my book.

Faerie Macabre is, at worst, a 2/2 flying creature for three mana that can be equipped with Jitte. It is (effectively) unstoppable graveyard removal. It can be inadvertently reanimated off an Exhume when an opponent least expects it. It is a very multilateral creature and given its cost for what it does on its own, it is really not that situational. There are a ridiculous amount of decks in Legacy that operate off the graveyard and this is a card that doesn't even have to be used in the game specifically for that reason.

The argument can be made for Deathmark being a situational Magic card. It is in theory, but you also have to (once again) stop to think about what the most prevalent and effective creatures are in this format and what colors they are. The list just grows and grows and I have rarely opened with a Deathmark that hasn't been useful in at least some capacity. It's a powerful choice for what it is meant to do.

The point of the deck is to exploit the commonalities of the format and punish people for falling into the typical category of social mimicry. Magic is a game that is predicated heavily on assimilating information from others and using the same ideas and theories that provide those individuals (like so many others) a great deal of success and using that information for your own benefit. I prefer to surprise and punish people for this level of idiosyncrasy by utilizing cheap (albeit sometimes situational) cards that do what they do best and even better than what something else could do in a general sense for a higher cost. It has worked for me for the most part and I really want to find a legitimate reason to remove that card from the official build, but with all the testing and tournament play I've given this deck, I see no reason to take them out as of this time.

At the absolute very least, it is a one-mana black sorcery that reads, "Destroy target creature named Tarmogoyf." Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. While that may be situational, it is borderline just the opposite in today's metagame. I'll concede the cards mentioned do have some level of situational play, but they are arguably the most effective choices at what they can do and can provide a crushing swing in the early going of a match which is generally contested within the first three turns anyways.

Mystical_Jackass

06-22-2010, 03:11 PM

Faerie Macabre is, at worst, a 2/2 flying creature for three mana that can be equipped with Jitte. It is (effectively) unstoppable graveyard removal. It can be inadvertently reanimated off an Exhume when an opponent least expects it. It is a very multilateral creature and given its cost for what it does on its own, it is really not that situational. There are a ridiculous amount of decks in Legacy that operate off the graveyard and this is a card that doesn't even have to be used in the game specifically for that reason.

The argument can be made for Deathmark being a situational Magic card. It is in theory, but you also have to (once again) stop to think about what the most prevalent and effective creatures are in this format and what colors they are. The list just grows and grows and I have rarely opened with a Deathmark that hasn't been useful in at least some capacity. It's a powerful choice for what it is meant to do.

The point of the deck is to exploit the commonalities of the format and punish people for falling into the typical category of social mimicry. Magic is a game that is predicated heavily on assimilating information from others and using the same ideas and theories that provide those individuals (like so many others) a great deal of success and using that information for your own benefit. I prefer to surprise and punish people for this level of idiosyncrasy by utilizing cheap (albeit sometimes situational) cards that do what they do best and even better than what something else could do in a general sense for a higher cost. It has worked for me for the most part and I really want to find a legitimate reason to remove that card from the official build, but with all the testing and tournament play I've given this deck, I see no reason to take them out as of this time.

At the absolute very least, it is a one-mana black sorcery that reads, "Destroy target creature named Tarmogoyf." Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. While that may be situational, it is borderline just the opposite in today's metagame. I'll concede the cards mentioned do have some level of situational play, but they are arguably the most effective choices at what they can do and can provide a crushing swing in the early going of a match which is generally contested within the first three turns anyways.

Macabre... okay I think you sold me on that, maindeck gy hate's pretty important in Legacy these days. :smile:

I totally hear what you're saying regarding Deathmark. I agree completely of its usefulness in those matches, however it's more of a metagame decision like you mentioned, so subjective from player to player, not the universal choice. It can easily be SB in, np, for those matches. The problem I have, too, is the card cannot even be used with your deck to sacrafice persecutor if needed.

Regardless of mine or anyone's opinion, the argument is always going to either be "skillful read of the metagame" vs "unnecessary risk game1". It's possible that Storm and Reanimator might take a plummet, so maybe seeing even more green... we'll see.

bakofried

06-23-2010, 01:46 AM

Has your latest list changed at all, Hollywood?

sporenfrosch1411

06-23-2010, 09:27 AM

@AlterEgo

Can u recap parts of the tournament?
Especially interesting would be the Sideboard...
How did u use ur Sideboard - meaning, what did u board in and out versus what :)

Also:
Why do you play Sword Light and Shadow over Sword Light and Shadow Fire and Ice? Is the Lifegain > the burn and the return creature > draw ?