[Deck] UGw Tempo

[anwei]

So heres an update on the model I posted last time. I did some testing and im fairly happy with the following.


I'm playing around with different New Horizons builds at the moment, trying to see if Delver is good or not, and stumbled upon this thread.
Three suggestions/thoughts occur:
-The creature base is somewhat divided between aggro and midrange-oriented choices. Obviously Delver can steal games quickly and has potential late-game value in evading ground stalls, but there's a lot of slow guys being played here too. Specifically, running Ooze/Pridemage over the set of Goyfs and paying an extra mana for GSZ both seem slow and incongruous with Delver. Classic New Horizons lists were running 0 1-drop creatures with a monstrous set of 2- and 3-drops, which means Delver has the same awkward place in those lists. Getting them close to dead in a Bant list, then having them stabilize, is a lot less forgivable without the ability to topdeck bolt.
-Relatedly, the taxing counters get obviously worse as the game goes on and you have the full set. Do you often close games out fast enough that these hold that much value? The midrange Bant decks I've played in the past have often run 4 Force, 3-4 soft counters. Stifle extends the relevance of those cards (Again, no-1-drop NH doesn't suffer for holding up Stifle mana t1, and you do, but they do have a good chunk of relevant targets beyond fetches and even keeping them off 3-4-5 mana can keep the other soft counters relevant.)
-Rest in Peace/Relic cannot be the right grave hate cards when they lock your Goyf/Knight/Ooze in as Goat/Bear/Bear.

For comparison, I'm currently testing:
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
8 Fetch
4 Waste
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze (61st Card)

4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Knight
2 Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 StP
2 EE
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Pierce
4 Stifle

[mossivo1986]

Welcome. New horizon's and UGw Tempo are in fact different archetypes. This deck is a bit faster and is generally more aggressive then its more mid-range counter part.

The "fat" as you say is perfectly fine. Qasali is almost always a fine card, goyf is generally regarded as good fat to tutor for in a pinch, and scavenging ooze is a game changer. The biggest concern is the land base in my opinion.

Im currently playing the following

4x misty rainforest
1x flooded strand
3x tropical island
2x tundra
1x savannah
4x wasteland
1x dryad arbor
1x karakas
1x snow covered forest
1x snow covered island


The creature suite has played quite strong. Im really enjoying the 3x zenith.

[mossivo1986]

Has anyone tested Centaur Healer by chance? I havent gotten a chance to test against the burn decks and I wonder what the results were. Without rhox it doesnt seem favorable.

[Asthereal]

Lol, stumbled over this thread when I have just decided to start testing the following:

BANT DELVER

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk /15

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith /27

Lands:
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath /18

Sideboard:
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas /15

Zenith fits perfectly with the Delvers, since it's a sorcery that still gets dudes.
The full set of Ponders is also nice when you need to dig for certain things.

I decided to start testing this because I first was playing a Natural Order Bant list, but the Natural Order usually came too late to still steal the games for me. So I decided to switch to a faster semi-unfair wincon. Delver came to mind almost instantly. Downside is that we don't have the Progenitus anymore to help us win the control matchups. Fast Delver beats might still do the trick though.

Biggest difference with your attempts is Wasteland over Path to Exile. I had decided that removal is needed more, because Merfolk just kills us if we cannot get rid of the Islandwalk Lords. Also, since I play Zenith and no Knights of the Reliquary, Wasteland cannot be chained as easily, which makes it lose a lot of value. Not playing Wasteland also allows me to run basics, which are nice against TempoThresh.

[lavafrogg]

Lol, stumbled over this thread when I have just decided to start testing the following:

List

Zenith fits perfectly with the Delvers, since it's a sorcery that still gets dudes.
The full set of Ponders is also nice when you need to dig for certain things.

Biggest difference with your attempts is Wasteland over Path to Exile. I had decided that removal is needed more, because Merfolk just kills us if we cannot get rid of the Islandwalk Lords. Also, since I play Zenith and no Knights of the Reliquary, Wasteland cannot be chained as easily, which makes it lose a lot of value. Not playing Wasteland also allows me to run basics, which are nice against TempoThresh.

While I agree with you on zenith playing awesomely with Delver, I disagree with the lack of wastelands on a very serious level. Your list only gets better with wastelands as dazes and spell pierces will stay active for longer. Allowing you to keep your one drop swinging for the longest time possible and allowing you to out "tempo" your opponent. For this reason I feel you need another strong one drop so I ask the question " why are you not playing nimble mongoose?" If you want to be aggressive than heirarch is not the way to go and you need to be playing the goose. Goose forces miracles to terminus to which you can play another goose and keep beating!

For a fast beat down plan I would recommend:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Quasali Pridemage

Which plays much better than Heirarch/Clique/War Monk. If you want to play Heirarch in a bant list you need to be casting knight of the reliquary and jace to end your games, not delver.

I made some changes that IMO make UGw tempo flow better, using your zenith idea to help delver flip more often. I bumped the instant/sorcery count to 30 for a 50/50 flip chance on average.

UGw Zenith Tempo

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
4 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exiles
2 Tormod's Crypt

This is what I have been writing up in my head for a few weeks now btw, I might be a little addicted to GSZ at the moment.

Ps. I'm reading the opening post now. Sorry if I went against all if your card choices from the opening post. I can either shut up or we can discuss the delver list I made.

Cheers

[KobeBryan]

While I agree with you on zenith playing awesomely with Delver, I disagree with the lack of wastelands on a very serious level. Your list only gets better with wastelands as dazes and spell pierces will stay active for longer. Allowing you to keep your one drop swinging for the longest time possible and allowing you to out "tempo" your opponent. For this reason I feel you need another strong one drop so I ask the question " why are you not playing nimble mongoose?" If you want to be aggressive than heirarch is not the way to go and you need to be playing the goose. Goose forces miracles to terminus to which you can play another goose and keep beating!

For a fast beat down plan I would recommend:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Quasali Pridemage

Which plays much better than Heirarch/Clique/War Monk. If you want to play Heirarch in a bant list you need to be casting knight of the reliquary and jace to end your games, not delver.

I made some changes that IMO make UGw tempo flow better, using your zenith idea to help delver flip more often. I bumped the instant/sorcery count to 30 for a 50/50 flip chance on average.

UGw Zenith Tempo

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
4 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exiles
2 Tormod's Crypt

This is what I have been writing up in my head for a few weeks now btw, I might be a little addicted to GSZ at the moment.

Ps. I'm reading the opening post now. Sorry if I went against all if your card choices from the opening post. I can either shut up or we can discuss the delver list I made.

Cheers

I like it...but I probably will take out the 3 gsz for qasali pridemages. Imagine turn 3 delvers attacking at 5 is just too sweet to pass up.

Also i dont like your sideboard at all. Whats the point of having a gaddock teeg? Tempo decks usually don't have any problems with combo decks. The weakness is usually against a control deck, which means i will up the krosan grips. As for rhox war monk. I guess its time to race against a burn deck instead of playing any life gain. Or maybe board in REB.

[mossivo1986]

I don't necessarily hate the idea of making the archetype more like Rug currently, but if you do, I firmly feel like your losing value in other places where its not necessary.

I feel like clique is a necessity in the current metagame, be it for the random terminus stopper, turn eot rapage, or merely stopping show and tell from doing the dirty. The evasion is so sweet in this format.

as far as replacing noble hierarch, I think its a mistake but id like to understand why you think its bad. I'd also like to see if you are actually testing with it.

[lavafrogg]

I don't necessarily hate the idea of making the archetype more like Rug currently, but if you do, I firmly feel like your losing value in other places where its not necessary.

I feel like clique is a necessity in the current metagame, be it for the random terminus stopper, turn eot rapage, or merely stopping show and tell from doing the dirty. The evasion is so sweet in this format.

as far as replacing noble hierarch, I think its a mistake but id like to understand why you think its bad. I'd also like to see if you are actually testing with it.

I love clique but I feel she is too mana intensive for the mana base and game plan I went for in my list. I feel she is right at home in a bant list with knight and karakas.

I will start testing tonight.

P.s. gaddock teeg is just another random terminus/verdict hoser against control. It doesn't hurt if you are already running GSZ. The war monk is for decks whee you will not be waste landing much and just need to race.

[anwei]

I don't necessarily hate the idea of making the archetype more like Rug currently, but if you do, I firmly feel like your losing value in other places where its not necessary.


I've been working on Tempo Bant with/without Delvers/Hierarchs/GSZ for a bit, trying and thinking about different combinations. Some thoughts on the list lavafrog just posted, specifically on how it compares to RUG Delver and it's cohesiveness:
An obvious question you should have a good answer to is: Why aren't you playing Rug? When Maverick was a bigger chunk of the metagame, upgrading your removal to StP at the cost of reach made sense, but the last 6 months have made going RUG->Bant worse. There are far fewer creatures who need Swords, while you lose reach/blasts against combo and lots against UW (burn for Jace, Sulfuric Vortex, blasts). Without 5-7 burn spells, and with StP, you're slower than RUG. Games that they would barely close out, you will lose. Decks that almost-but-couldn't stabilize against them will get to against you. If there are reasons to play Bant over RUG (and I think there are), you have to come to terms with the fact that you lose RUG's advantages and are slightly slower.
On your specific list, I don't think 18 land are enough to support Ooze or GSZ. Many RUG lists are running 19 land for good reason, and you have a 5th 2-drop creature with 3 2-to-3-drop sorceries, which are open to be Pierced. An ideal GSZ for Goyf (or Teeg) lets you keep a 4th mana open to protect with your own Pierce. (Note that many RUG lists have dropped md Ooze with the drop in Maverick and lacking the mana to use him well).

I continue to think that taking a couple pages from the old New Horizons lists is a great place to start: upgrade some Goose to Knight and add a couple Horizon Canopy to smooth out the land without risking flooding. I'm currently testing 2 builds which use 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight, 2 Clique (22 mana) and 4 Delver, 3 Hierarch, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight (21 mana), respectively (no GSZ). In many matches, Hierarch is just okay - the mana acceleration doesn't mean much for long and exalted is only pretty good. In the Tempo mirror, she's a monster. You win Goyf wars and mana wars and they're stuck bolting your dork to have any chance while you're swords'ing their Goyf. Thus, I'm very split on the lists.
The two obvious downsides are the lack of Mongoose's shroud, particularly against UW control, and running around ~24 Delver flips instead of ~30. The Delver disparity is significant, but only comes up <10% of the time blind and very rarely when using a cantrip. Lacking Mongoose rarely matters against decks other than UW control (heavy removal match-ups are all hard, and worse for Bant than Rug bc burn, but they have the most targeted removal where he could really do damage), which is a tough match-up.
I have kicked around running ~2 GSZ (perhaps in the board?) with 1 Mongoose as a way of having access to more guys, being able to get Hexproof, recovering from Terminus better for the long-game, and getting Teeg. (Teeg is solid enough against miracles/Jace that I consider running a couple in the board without GSZ.)

[mossivo1986]

I've been working on Tempo Bant with/without Delvers/Hierarchs/GSZ for a bit, trying and thinking about different combinations. Some thoughts on the list lavafrog just posted, specifically on how it compares to RUG Delver and it's cohesiveness:
An obvious question you should have a good answer to is: Why aren't you playing Rug? When Maverick was a bigger chunk of the metagame, upgrading your removal to StP at the cost of reach made sense, but the last 6 months have made going RUG->Bant worse. There are far fewer creatures who need Swords, while you lose reach/blasts against combo and lots against UW (burn for Jace, Sulfuric Vortex, blasts). Without 5-7 burn spells, and with StP, you're slower than RUG. Games that they would barely close out, you will lose. Decks that almost-but-couldn't stabilize against them will get to against you. If there are reasons to play Bant over RUG (and I think there are), you have to come to terms with the fact that you lose RUG's advantages and are slightly slower.
On your specific list, I don't think 18 land are enough to support Ooze or GSZ. Many RUG lists are running 19 land for good reason, and you have a 5th 2-drop creature with 3 2-to-3-drop sorceries, which are open to be Pierced. An ideal GSZ for Goyf (or Teeg) lets you keep a 4th mana open to protect with your own Pierce. (Note that many RUG lists have dropped md Ooze with the drop in Maverick and lacking the mana to use him well).

I continue to think that taking a couple pages from the old New Horizons lists is a great place to start: upgrade some Goose to Knight and add a couple Horizon Canopy to smooth out the land without risking flooding. I'm currently testing 2 builds which use 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight, 2 Clique (22 mana) and 4 Delver, 3 Hierarch, 4 Goyf, 3 Knight (21 mana), respectively (no GSZ). In many matches, Hierarch is just okay - the mana acceleration doesn't mean much for long and exalted is only pretty good. In the Tempo mirror, she's a monster. You win Goyf wars and mana wars and they're stuck bolting your dork to have any chance while you're swords'ing their Goyf. Thus, I'm very split on the lists.
The two obvious downsides are the lack of Mongoose's shroud, particularly against UW control, and running around ~24 Delver flips instead of ~30. The Delver disparity is significant, but only comes up <10% of the time blind and very rarely when using a cantrip. Lacking Mongoose rarely matters against decks other than UW control (heavy removal match-ups are all hard, and worse for Bant than Rug bc burn, but they have the most targeted removal where he could really do damage), which is a tough match-up.
I have kicked around running ~2 GSZ (perhaps in the board?) with 1 Mongoose as a way of having access to more guys, being able to get Hexproof, recovering from Terminus better for the long-game, and getting Teeg. (Teeg is solid enough against miracles/Jace that I consider running a couple in the board without GSZ.)

I think the overall speed of the format makes playing goyf really not all that sweet without direct damage backing you up for the one time it actually connects. Cards like Delver are strictly outclassing goyf for a reason. I am highly against playing goyf at this stage in the game, especially with decks consistently ending games on two with show n tell and such. It just brings down your consistency and Im not a fan of filling up slots for bullshit.

[mossivo1986]

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [C13] True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [JGC] Natural Order
SB: 1 [MMA] Progenitus
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk


update. still testing. just got back into the format. from first look it looks like the bug deck is just stronger. both against us and as a deck. need to find a trump for that deck. need more research.