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mossivo1986
05-17-2010, 06:31 AM
U.G.w. Tempo
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cfx/87.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/mprp/1.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/jvc/23.jpg

1. Intro
2. History
3. List
4. Card Selevtion
5. Sideboard Choices
6. Matchup Analysis
7. Credits



1. Introduction
U.G.w. Tempo or “Tempo Bant” is an aggro control deck designed to win through the use of tempo, redundancy, and card selection.

Since there are plenty of archetypes and people that miss-use the term Tempo, we should probably explain it, so you have a complete understanding of how this archetype really functions. Tempo, is something you obtain when you stop your opponent from casting relevant spells and developing like they normally would; while you continue to develop like normal, and improve your board position. “How!” you might ask, “can you accomplish this task of developing and denying at the same time?” This list develops tempo by abusing synergies with Noble Hierarch. The synergy between Noble Hierarch, Daze, Wasteland and, to a lesser extent, Spell Pierce, along with all the efficient creatures, are the tools that you will use to gain such tempo.

Now you might ask “Why play this instead of other archetypes, like Canadian Thresh?” Other archetypes in Legacy attempt to gain tempo through slowing an opponents development down with cards like stifle and wasteland. "Wasting" someones land doesn't generate tempo by itself, because you haven't developed your mana-base with the land you have played; However, with the addition of Noble Hierarch you are able to continue to develop your mana base, while attacking your opponents at the same time. The same "basic" principles can be applied to the counter-magic suite for this archetype.

Another key difference in this tempo deck is the lack of the blue instant Stifle. I'm sure your thinking I must be crazy to not auto-include this in a blue based tempo deck, but calm down junior! Your answer awaits you. The theory goes a little something like this. The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetch-land to Stifle. Your opponent just gains tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetch-land.

This brings us to our major difference between other Tempo archetypes and Tempo Bant; value. U.G.w Tempo strives to not only bring a strong tempo game, it also attempts to be as efficient for the costs as possible, while retaining card value over a longer period of time. That may sound like cheese to you, but rest assure that those decks playing “one trick pony” cards like stifle, nimble mongoose, or submerge, which only have value for a certain time-frame, or in a favorable board position. Without it; those archetypes suffer drastically. U.G.w Tempo does not share the same problem, as the card values of this Archetype are rarely cards you don't want to draw. When combined with 8 cantrips the deck virtually tutors for what it needs, so you have good cards, all the time.

Anyways back to the game-plan. As you have an increasing number of resources comparatively to your opponents decreasing number throughout the game; you continue to apply pressure "or a clock" with lots of creatures that are mana efficient and have strong utility. The Exalted mechanic has a lot to do with the efficiency of this deck's attack step. Your creatures generally have more value in this deck than in others because of all the exalted triggers and secondary abilities.

2. History
I'll be as brief as possible as this is not very relevant. U.G.w Tempo began as a concept deck in October 2009 at the Mean Deck Open. Paul Kim and Spencer Hayes are the decks creators; and relentlessly tested the deck for 6-8 months before taking a brake from the format. Since then I have piloted the deck with great success at small events and large ones.

Doug Lynn and Spencer Hayes did an article on the archetype. I think it's about as good as it gets for articles on the Legacy format.
Click Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18235_Legacys_Allure_Exploring_Tempo_Bant.html)

A few tournament reports I wrote

Click Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16214-UGw-Tempo-Thresh-Takes-Lansing-MI)

Click Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17739-W_Tempo_Thresh-takes-3rd-at-Premier-Coins-and-Collectibles!-Lansing-MI)

Click Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19312-2nd-at-Evolution-Games-UGw-Tempo-strikes-back)<-- Newest Report

3. The List


Lands 19
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Wasteland

Creatures 18
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Rhox War Monk
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Permission 11
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

Draw/Kantrip 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Removal 4
4x Swords to Plowshares


4. Card selection

Mana-base- The base is structured to suit daze, while playing about as safe of a configuration against opposing denial strategies and giving you as many colored sources as possible. 6 Fetches is pretty standard against stifle, 2 basics is bare minimum against wasteland, and 7 duals is pretty standard to give you the most “bang for your buck.” Noble Hierarch is the real reason this archetype can get away with running 4 wasteland.

You may notice the original base looked like this


2 misty
2 flooded
2 windswept
3 tundra
3 trop
1/1/1 basic of each color
4 wasteland.

I found after extensive testing that the extra basic was a little too much; and basic island was becoming a colorless source the more I played with it. You never want to draw hands of double wasteland, or wasteland island go. Therefore; cut the island, fixed the fetches, and added a savannah, so it would be a bit more difficult to hate directly on the base. Your slightly more prone to extirpate on windswept; but thats quite unlikely, and usually a bad play against you anyways.

Qasali Pridemage- triple utility. A stand alone threat which helps break stalemates with exalted. deals with pesky artifacts and enchantments. Multi-pridemage openings usually result in complete blowouts. Said by many to be the best creature in the deck.

Rhox Warmonk- Incredibly efficient and synergistic with exalted triggers. Creates bow-out scenarios. Pitches to force; rarely ever a dead card.

Knight of the Reliquary- The big daddy of the deck, like many others is quite useful at breaking stalemates because of his huge power creep. Also is a temporary “waste-lock” which keeps opponents shenanigans daze and spell pierce-able.

Spell Pierce- Stops opponents from casting stuff that not only kills your dudes, but also stops them from doing much of anything else other than making their own dudes; coincidentally your dudes eat theirs anyways. Phenomenal tempo control-counter. Establish your plan, while prohibiting theirs.

Brainstorm/ Ponder 8 Kantrips- Allows for as much allowable redundancy as a tempo deck can reasonably get away with. Acts as a filter early game, and a tutor late. Pitches to force.

Cards that almost made the cut

Vendillion Clique- Most efficient flyer for the cost in Bant colors. Kicked on ability almost always good, either trades with larger critters I.E. Tombstalker because of exalted triggers, or opponents become victims rather quickly. We like to call him flying goyf. Was eventually cut due to the dominance of the Zoo archetype.

5. Side-boarding choices

The sideboard is clearly highly interchangeable based on your preconcieved metagame. General sideboards include the following

Some combination of blasts, paths, gy removal, pithing needle, etc. My current sideboard looks like this for my metagame.


2 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
3 path to exile
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 relic of progenitus
1 Bajuka Bog
3 Pithing Needle


6. Matchup Analysis
Matchup Analysis

Goblins
This is one of the worst matchups for Tempo Bant. Applying constant pressure and protecting your threats is absolutely key. They have good removal in the form of Incinerator. Preboard. Also keep in mind you can very easily get swarmed early. Cards that matter: Gempalm Incinerator, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief's. You need to side in additional blasts, paths, and perhaps 2 needle if you can squeeze it in.

Post board you need to watch for things like pyrokinesis, perish, and other goodies. Keep this in mind keep strong aggresive hands and you should be alright post board.

Merfolk
Another not fun matchup. Merfolk is in their favor preboard and should be shored up post. Staying aggressive against their alpha is again key. Forcing them to make bad blocks, and keep them on the backfoot especially preboard is essential. Cards that matter: Lord's, Jitte.

Post board you even the matchup out with the additional paths. Before I was siding in EE, but since it's been removed theres no blowout play against them (ee at 2.) Some versions run Perish, some versions opt for jitte and mind harness. submerge was seen as well. Be aware, and don't trade the last of your gas for the last of theirs without know your ripping gas and you should be fine. Be prepared against commander. It's usually the card that the match comes down to.

Dredge
it's something like 20-80 preboard. Ouch! I've won once in the many games i've played sanctioned preboard, but he mull'd aggresively. Relivent cards: Breakthrough, Tireless Tribe, Cabal Therapy.

Post board you bring in some combination of graveyard hate. Knight into bog is an auto tilt for them. Staying aggressive is once again key. Siding in Path for stp is relivent.

Tendrills
Tendrills combo is a solid matchup based on your countermagic suite. You usually have just enough to get there preboard. If all else fails remember that STP can gain you life if you nuke your own goyf. Post board you need to side in the cannonists, and if you see B wish and rite, it's probobly a good idea to find spots for those as well.



7. Credits
Obvious dues to the decks creators Paul Kim and Spencer Hayes. Thanks to Doug Linn for the article. Thanks to all you people out there who took time to read this thing. Thanks to Jak for an outline of his primer on Bant Survival. Thanks to all of my friends IRL who listen to me blab about this deck constantly. You are all greatly appreciated.

Skeggi
05-17-2010, 06:48 AM
Why isn't this just another take on Bant Aggro? Yes, it has Wasteland, yes it has 2 Knight of the Reliquary instead of 2 Rhox War Monk, but the basic principle of the deck seems similar to Bant Aggro.

stacker
05-17-2010, 06:55 AM
Knight's ability and STPs are hardly considered 'tempo'

Julian23
05-17-2010, 07:19 AM
You dare to call this deck "Tempo" without Stifle? Hell, this is just plain and simple Bant Aggro with 4 Wastelands.

Skeggi
05-17-2010, 07:25 AM
'White Thresh' should contain the following cards:

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Optional:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mana Tithe
Force Spike
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare


The problem with White Thresh is that you can't really use either Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. So I'm uncertain what you should fit in the removal slot. It seems strictly worse than Canadian.

johanessen
05-17-2010, 07:29 AM
'White Thresh' should contain the following cards:

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Optional:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mana Tithe
Force Spike
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare


The problem with White Thresh is that you can't really use either Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. So I'm uncertain what you should fit in the removal slot. It seems strictly worse than Canadian.


And 4 Qasali Pridemage.

My take on white thresh is swaping fire/ice and lightning bolt for swords and qasali. But the sideboard is bad compared with the red thresh one.

jazzykat
05-17-2010, 07:31 AM
Obviously there are some different cards, but how would you differentiate this deck from New Horizons?

mossivo1986
05-17-2010, 03:57 PM
Why isn't this just another take on Bant Aggro? Yes, it has Wasteland, yes it has 2 Knight of the Reliquary instead of 2 Rhox War Monk, but the basic principle of the deck seems similar to Bant Aggro. -Skeggi

Explanation:

The basic gameplan of Tempo Bant is to play out an early attacker and utilize cards like Daze and Wasteland to increase its mana advantage. It then can ramp into a card like Knight of the Reliquary or Vendilion Clique. Both, while seemingly costing three mana, functionally often cost much more in Legacy because the player is holding up mana to protect against Daze, Spell Pierce an opponent or cast Brainstorm to find cards. Often, one big attacker (or three Exalted creatures on the board) will quickly end the game.
-Doug Linn

If your going to compare this deck to Bant aggro then I think it's only fair that you distinguish that bant aggro uses counterbalance/ top as a means to lock an opponent out, and in doing so sacrifices the idea of a tempo plan in order to give itself a potential soft lock. Also the nombo that is counterbalance+daze in that deck should be recognized as well.


Knight's ability and STPs are hardly considered 'tempo'-Stacker

Explanation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16214-UGw-Tempo-Thresh-Takes-Lansing-MI&p=421209&viewfull=1#post421209)

Check out New Horizon's (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15244-[Deck]-New-Horizons)


You dare to call this deck "Tempo" without Stifle? Hell, this is just plain and simple Bant Aggro with 4 Wastelands. -Julian23

So what your asking me is why is this deck called a tempo deck? I answered that. If your question is why is it called a tempo deck while not running the card stifle, then here is an answer.

Explanation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16214-UGw-Tempo-Thresh-Takes-Lansing-MI&p=421618&viewfull=1#post421618)


'White Thresh' should contain the following cards:

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Optional:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mana Tithe
Force Spike
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare -Skeggi

As stated earlier there is no real reasoning behind calling the deck a thresh-deck because it doesn't revolve around obtaining a goal of getting seven cards in the graveyard. With that said the play-style of the deck plays similarly to that of Red thresh and so it was named white thresh.



The problem with White Thresh is that you can't really use either Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. So I'm uncertain what you should fit in the removal slot. It seems strictly worse than Canadian. -Skeggi

You can in fact use STP in tempo decks, that point is invalid and has been explained. Path to exile is apart of the sideboard and should be addressed accordingly. If your quiery is post board play then you should ask yourself "what am I siding out post board against decks that I want to side in path to exile." In that question you will find yourself siding out the tempo plan for a more control plan involving more creature removal and less permission to aid your better creatures. This is how you win creature match-ups.

Exactly how does it seem worse then Thrash?
-Better creatures (knight, rhox, qasali)
-Better land-base (basic lands+noble hierarch)
-Better transition into post-board play (Doesn't need to play a tempo roll in post board play)


Obviously there are some different cards, but how would you differentiate this deck from New Horizons? -Jazzykat

Excellent question. New horizons is similar to W_Tempo_Thresh obviously.

The main differences
Noble Hierarch
The synergies discussed before make the match-ups substantially different. While both decks play similarly (get a big threat and ride it) noble hierarch not only allows W_Tempo_Thresh to play with wasteland, but plays better against them as well comparatively.
Spell pierce versus Stifle.
The reasoning for this has already been covered within this post.
Qasali Pridemage
One of the bigger weakness to New Horizon's that i've witnessed and also heard from pilots of the arch-type is that non-creature permanents tend to be a big problem. Most notably Umezawa's Jitte. Qasali pridemage not only serves as THE answer to all things lame that your opponent is doing, but is also widely regarded by the creators as well myself as one of the best creatures in the deck.

There are various other glaring differences to me but i've run out of time to post. I hope this serves as an explanation to you all.

mossivo1986
05-17-2010, 11:51 PM
Cleaned up the intro a bit, still working on it though.

LOurs
05-18-2010, 09:21 AM
Interesting build, close to existing Bant strategies as mentioned but it seems clearly more tempo oriented, at least in playstyle.

I have 2 questions anyway :

> Bounce ability
I know that all the deck is designed to prevent the opponent from playing anything harmful in the right tempo, but sometimes it happens. And when that is the case, to bounce the threat is often a decent answer. Plus it could be useful in a tempo gain view (sometime, to bounce an opponent's lonely hierarch eot provides huge tempo gain) . That said, I see no options neither md nor sb to do it (echoing, wipe, rushing are some example of possible bounce cards). No need ?

> Graveyard hate
Is your defense vs graveyard strong enough ? Vs Dredge, loam or other heavy GY based deck, this decks seems to loose consitency vs its thresh cousins (no way to stifle any GY effect) and to play relic sb seems risky (terrible for your goyf & knights). How are your results vs dredge ??

I didnt test this build enough at the moment, so consider my questions as pure feeling and good luck with that deck.

Skeggi
05-18-2010, 09:50 AM
If you're going to compare this deck to Bant aggro then I think it's only fair that you distinguish that bant aggro uses counterbalance/ top as a means to lock an opponent out, and in doing so sacrifices the idea of a tempo plan in order to give itself a potential soft lock. Also the nombo that is counterbalance+daze in that deck should be recognized as well.
Bant Aggro doesn't use CounterTop. As soon as a deck with Bant colors employs CounterTop it's a whole different deck, here at The Source, the aptly named 'CounterTop'.



As stated earlier there is no real reasoning behind calling the deck a thresh-deck because it doesn't revolve around obtaining a goal of getting seven cards in the graveyard. With that said the play-style of the deck plays similarly to that of Red thresh and so it was named white thresh.

A while ago, these decks were renamed (here, on The Source) to avoid confusion. No Threshold-mechanic? Don't call your deck Thresh.


You can in fact use STP in tempo decks, that point is invalid and has been explained.
Bant Aggro isn't a Tempo deck, it's an Aggro Control deck. Merely including Wasteland doesn't merrit discrimination. Swords to Plowshares is a Control card, not a Tempo card.


Excellent question. New horizons is similar to W_Tempo_Thresh obviously.
Actually it differs more from New Horizons than it does to Bant Aggro. New Horizons is build around Horizon Canopy. This deck doesn't use that card, nor puts out any effort to potentially abuse that card.

I still stand by it. This is Bant Aggro with Wasteland. Sven Dijt's Naya Zoo from top8 GP Madrid also ran Wasteland. Does that make it not Naya Zoo? Should we call it Tempo Zoo instead?

Bahamuth
05-18-2010, 10:46 AM
I have quite a bit of experience with Canadian Thresh and my team's own brew of black Tempo Thresh, and I have a couple of problems with this list. First of all, Hierarch is an excellent tempo card. Actually, I'd consider more mana critters as a part of this deck (it's probably not good enough though).

You gave no explanation for running Spell Pierce over any other counters that serve comparable purposes. Why wouldn't you run Spell Snare in these slots? Why wouldn't you supplement the Pierces with Spell Snares?

I agree with some of the above posters that Stifle is very important in a tempo list. Canadian Thresh is built to abuse Stifle + Waste, and this deck might be able to do it better, because of Hierarch's mana ramp and the haste-ish effect the exalted guys have. If you play your deck properly, your opponent can't get a tempo advantage over you, given that you can get through the first couple of turns without losing the advantage you have. Spell Snare is important for that. The example given in the first post is too limited. This deck can keep a Tundra open, and have up to 3 options to play some card that offers tempo, StP, Stifle and Pierce, and maybe Spell Snare could be added to that as well. If the opponent doesn't fetch the turn you have mana open, you're very likely to Pierce or StP something instead.

There are too many creatures in this list. Creatures don't offer tempo advantage generally. Clique is a good tempo card, and offers a very good synergy with the exalted guys. The exalted guys themselves are good at generating tempo as well. Knight is not and RWM isn't either. I'd cut them to reduce your creature count and add Stifles.

The mana base is bad. You cannot run basics in a list like this. The idea is to use your mana as tight as possible, and basics will screw this up way too often. You always want to have a Tundra open, and you always want to be able to play a (possible multicolored) creature next to it.

And why do you board out Daze all the time?

Jak
05-18-2010, 10:51 AM
Dictionary.com-

tempo
–noun
1.Music. relative rapidity or rate of movement, usually indicated by such terms as adagio, allegro, etc., or by reference to the metronome.
2.characteristic rate, rhythm, or pattern of work or activity: the tempo of city life.
3.Chess. the gaining or losing of time and effectiveness relative to one's continued mobility or developing position, esp. with respect to the number of moves required to gain an objective: Black gained a tempo.

Switch the word "chess" with "Magic" and there you go essentially. Magic is a game of resources and if you use yours better than the opponent, you win. It is all about getting ahead and every deck in the format does it. Some try to take advantage of tempo early, like Zoo who plays out guys fast, has a low mana curve and efficient spells. Others, later, like Landstill who is slower out of the gates since the mana curve is higher, but later on it can use all of its mana casting more powerful spells like Wrath of God, Planeswalkers, etc. The raw power of Landstills cards allow them to win the game later on from being behind on tempo.

I hate calling cards tempo cards, because everything can be a "tempo card" in the right situation. Cards aren't tempo, they can only generate it by giving you opportunites to get ahead of the player sitting across from you. Casting StP on Rafiq can be a great tempo boost. You each lose a card but it only cost you one mana (and three life) to their four mana. Now you can capitalize and cast your own threat and get ahead because with your resources you answered his/her threat and produced your own.

Bant Aggro is aggro-control, but that doesn't exclude it from being a "Tempo deck"*. It uses efficient spells and Noble Hiearchs to get ahead of the opponent.

*= Most people call decks "Tempo decks" if they are blue, include Wasteland, have a very low mana curve, and run cheap creatures. However, something like ANT is much more of a tempo deck than Canadian Threshold. I really don't like the term "Tempo Decks" since it is mainly only used to describe blue decks with Wasteland.

Anyway, rant over. I think the deck is good. I feel as if it is competing against New Horizons and Bant Aggro since it is like a hybrid of both, but it obviously plays different than both.

F3lix
05-18-2010, 11:16 AM
This is just bant aggro, but I'm glad it got it's own thread anyway because it deserves more love. Here's a similar list I posted back in January:


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MR] Plains (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (3)
1 [7E] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant



Notable changes are lack of RWM and the addition of Guildmage, Elspeth, and more counters. I personally love drawing Guildmage and believe that Noble makes it playable here. Stifle on a stick and its tap ability are huge for this deck.

This deck is more suited for my meta, as I don't see an overwhelming amount of Lightning Bolt. Though if I do I often just change the the Cliques to RWM. I play this as straight tempo, but have the Guildmages and Elspeth to give me reach. This deck can wreak havoc on CB decks, which I do enjoy.

Lastly, whoever says this is not a tempo deck is just plain wrong. Tempo is defined as the pace in which a given object moves. In magic tempo is colloquially defined as developing ones board with creatures and lands, putting pressure on an opponent, while simultaneously stifling (not literally) the development of an opponent thus creating an asymmectrical tempo in your favor. The card that best enables this is noble hierarch. Optimally I want to lay one down on turn one. And the way I generate 'tempo', at least in the early game, is to start laying down threats while leaving me an open mana to play any of my 15 counterspells, or wasteland. Later on I can use Clique, which is a great card at maintaining tempo, and Guildmage which again, is a great tempo card because I'm laying down a threat that not only aims at your life total, but often nulls your opponents blockers, while also having its often backbreaking second ability ready to strike, and neither of these abilies cause it to tap, which is huge.

Additionally, Noble lets me soak up tempo when an opponent tries to daze or wasteland me, as I can recover quicker. Say an opponent wins the roll lays a land and passes, I play a land and noble and say go. He wastlands my land and says go. Think of how huge this is. It is the start of turn 3 (or virtually my turn 2) and now I'm laying down my second land (noble is also a land) to his 1. The roles are now reversed, because you drew first, you were already a card ahead, but now you are a land ahead as well! Again, this may look like a small play on the surface, but it really is huge in practice and is the best example of using tempo to your advantage.

LOurs
05-18-2010, 11:36 AM
To me, in MTG, following a tempo strategy is trying to prevent a deck from following its natural spell mana curve : it consists to slow the opponent deck enough in its own win strategy to allow to the tempo deck to reach the victory before opponent fills its late (late could be to not have enough mana to cast the answers/ win con at the correct moment, to delay a combo launch ... )

With that in mind, I would agree with that : "I hate calling cards tempo cards, because everything can be a "tempo card" in the right situation."

A StP could be a tempo card when you remove an early hierarch in example (by breaking the acceleration the opponent's deck is trying to get and the access to the whole spells suite based on that acceleration). But StP could also to not be tempo at all if it removes an attacking creature late game (a good board position play, but probably not a tempo gain = it is mostly in that case a control card) ...

Only my opinion

F3lix
05-18-2010, 12:29 PM
With that in mind, I would agree with that : "I hate calling cards tempo cards, because everything can be a "tempo card" in the right situation."


I would go even as far as to say that tempo cards do not exist as there are only tempo plays.

mossivo1986
05-18-2010, 04:49 PM
Graveyard hate has been brought up for the board. I haven't REALLY tested ichorid led and non led. I imagine its poor without playing samurai of the pale curtain. In the tournament report there was alot of indepth information regarding some of the key card choices. I urge all who have not read it to go through it.

As for the name, don't get stuck on it. Everyone has their own position on it; it's not relivent, so leave it alone. We can change it once the archtype starts showing up and playing in larger tournaments.

Stifle has been discussed and beaten to death both here and on the tournament report. Stifle is only a tempo card when you use it to stop fetchlands, and if your losing the tempo race stifle only stalemates, it does't actually further your game plan in my opinion. I don't like the card, Paul doesn't like the card, it's not what we are looking for in this shell.

The creature count is fine.the deck is designed to have good matchups against the tiers in the metagame currently. Playing 18 creatures is perfectly legitimate. High threat density is what wins you magic games too :). More mana producers is not an option currently. By adding in additional mana producers you reduce either threat density, kantrip, or counter protection. All of which are vital to the archtype. Increasing the raw power plays one can make doesn't make the deck better, but less consistent and more prone to heavy spot removal like firespout.

Jak
05-18-2010, 07:34 PM
I would go even as far as to say that tempo cards do not exist as there are only tempo plays.

You're right which is what I was trying to convey. Cards create the opportunities for tempo. Swords a Rafiq, like I said, can grant you a lot of tempo but you have to capitalize with the mana you have left.

Skeggi
05-19-2010, 01:24 AM
As for the name, don't get stuck on it. Everyone has their own position on it; it's not relivent, so leave it alone. We can change it once the archtype starts showing up and playing in larger tournaments.
I totally agree, Bant Aggro is a good deck. Except that it's already being discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-[Deck]-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant).

Here's a list I top-8'd with a while ago at a GPT Madrid (about 60 players if I recall correctly), as a note: the Counterbalance in the sideboard sucked :wink:. Elspeth count may be reduced to 3. This deck however is unable to run Wastelands because it requires some more mana intensive spells (it evolved from a more 'tempo' oriented list, but you'll soon find out 'tempo' isn't that good once people know how to play against it).

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB:
4 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Orim's Chant

mossivo1986
05-19-2010, 09:01 PM
I hate to rag on you skeggi; wait no I don’t you’ve been ragging all over my list. So your list was a tempo list, but then it changed. When you changed it I assume you added STP AND P2E after the change correct? Also obviously I’m going to harp on you for telling me that Bant Aggro doesn’t play counter/top and you JUST showed us a list, yours none the less that runs it. And like you said 4x Elspeth? Seriously? I think its better if we just stopped communicating because nothing you’re going to tell me is going to be constructive, just negative and down-right wrong sometimes. I like you a lot on the mish mash thread. You’re a really funny guy, but I honestly think it’s best if we leave it at that and you go constructively criticize other threads.

Skeggi
05-20-2010, 02:38 AM
Hey, I didn't say I didn't like your list. It's a good deck. I just said it's not W Thresh: it's Bant Aggro with Wastelands. If we're posting about Bant Aggro I might as well post my Bant Aggro list, right?

But apparently it's me vs. the world, so I guess I'm wrong. I'll shut up now :wink:. Please continue :smile:

Vacrix
05-20-2010, 03:13 AM
I hate to rag on you skeggi; wait no I don’t you’ve been ragging all over my list. So your list was a tempo list, but then it changed. When you changed it I assume you added STP AND P2E after the change correct? Also obviously I’m going to harp on you for telling me that Bant Aggro doesn’t play counter/top and you JUST showed us a list, yours none the less that runs it. And like you said 4x Elspeth? Seriously? I think its better if we just stopped communicating because nothing you’re going to tell me is going to be constructive, just negative and down-right wrong sometimes. I like you a lot on the mish mash thread. You’re a really funny guy, but I honestly think it’s best if we leave it at that and you go constructively criticize other threads.
I agree that 4 Elspeth if an odd choice but hell he top'd 8 with it at a decently sized tournament.

Aside, are 8 cantrips really necessary? As much as I like Ponder in tempo, I think you could put a few of those slots to better use. If I were to play it, I think I would cut 2 ponder and a QPM for some Nimble Mongoose actions. Especially since you lack equipment, I would expect you to be running a few Geese.

mossivo1986
05-20-2010, 02:16 PM
Hey, I didn't say I didn't like your list. It's a good deck. I just said it's not W Thresh: it's Bant Aggro with Wastelands. If we're posting about Bant Aggro I might as well post my Bant Aggro list, right?

But apparently it's me vs. the world, so I guess I'm wrong. I'll shut up now :wink:. Please continue :smile:

It's not you versus the world. I felt as though you were just attacking the entire integrity of the deck from start to finish. If you want to be apart of the establishing of this arch-type to the top then be my guest. I think your a fine pilot. But if your going to be nasty from the start then obviously I don't want to argue with you, your a nice guy.

Also just because someone does well in a tourney doesn't mean their list is insane. It simply means a number of factors went right for them. Personally I think a large part of that tourney had to do with skeggi's ability as a player, with very little in terms of negative drawbacks from his deck (i.e. drawing 3 elspeth in an opener etc.)

Draener
05-21-2010, 04:11 PM
I agree that 4 Elspeth if an odd choice but hell he top'd 8 with it at a decently sized tournament.

Aside, are 8 cantrips really necessary? As much as I like Ponder in tempo, I think you could put a few of those slots to better use. If I were to play it, I think I would cut 2 ponder and a QPM for some Nimble Mongoose actions. Especially since you lack equipment, I would expect you to be running a few Geese.

The geese are good, but the cards you suggest cutting are part of the reason that nimble mongoose is good. With less cantrips and less exalted, nimble mongoose becomes a 3/3 much later, allowing your opponent to recover from the tempo you spent your early turns setting up.

On a side note, I would never cut ponders from a tempo oriented deck list such as this. The package of 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder drastically improve your odds of seeing your other dudes, which are among the top power level in the format, while allowing you to have a much more reasonable chance of seeing key sideboard cards.

EDIT: It seems that the needles are meh in the sideboard, and that your grave hate is a little lacking. Wheel of sun and moon is quite good against both reanimator and dredge, and might be a good swap for the two needles.

mossivo1986
05-22-2010, 02:53 AM
On a side note, I would never cut ponders from a tempo oriented deck list such as this. The package of 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder drastically improve your odds of seeing your other dudes, which are among the top power level in the format, while allowing you to have a much more reasonable chance of seeing key sideboard cards.

+1 QFT. Redundancy in this arch-type is one major position for it's success.


EDIT: It seems that the needles are meh in the sideboard, and that your grave hate is a little lacking. Wheel of sun and moon is quite good against both reanimator and dredge, and might be a good swap for the two needles.

Needles are to equalize match-ups like 43land(maze) and goblins(vial). Though you side in needle against goblins it doesn't mean you side it in against every deck running vial. It's particular to that match-up because of Ringleader. Overall needle is quite solid and I don't think i'd toss it out of the sideboard.

Everyone keeps mentioning not enough graveyard hate. While I understand that Dredge is a real deck and requires extensive testing, is it really that necessary to bring in specific hate, rather then generalized and hope for the best if the match-up isn't that much stronger regardless? With relic as strong as it is against a variety of decks it seems like the better plan. Recursion is already a decently favored match-up with the disruption package presented and honestly I feel like if you incase yourself with mass gy removal options (6 slots or more) you fall into this abyss of testing the wrong match-ups.

mossivo1986
05-23-2010, 08:02 AM
Revised primer. Thanx to Jak for such a fantastic layout!

mossivo1986
05-25-2010, 01:57 AM
Updated the Primer with new testing results. Unsure if relic should or should not be replaced at this point. Anyone crunch any numbers on how much recursion is showing up in larger tournaments and finishing well? I need to test this match-up specifically and also establish the combo match-ups actual numbers.

Pheonix. I need to get some numbers crunched against zurr as well. I know that sounds weird but I consider the deck relevant still because your playing it. :)

I think 3rd rhox,4th spell pierce, and a 4th Relic are all considerations for the board. I just need to organize my thoughts a bit more.

mossivo1986
05-31-2010, 01:00 AM
Report Time. Played another tourney and got 3rd. Click here for a report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17739-W_Tempo_Thresh-takes-3rd-at-Premier-Coins-and-Collectibles!-Lansing-MI&p=459447). I'm now 8/8 in tournament play (t4,split, or just win)

mossivo1986
06-01-2010, 07:21 PM
So the tournament report I put up has been locked. All constructive criticism, additional questions about playing the deck, as well as any other information well nature d comments about the deck will be placed here.

I talked to Paul today and noting from the tournament I should not have played teeg, and I probobly should have cut krosan grip instead of the ee and relic. The krosan grips should have turned into ethersworn cannonist if I was afraid of combo, which I agree on; I just wanted more universal hate. Obviously siding in ee with teeg is such a nombo, but its all hate non the less.

Vacrix
06-02-2010, 03:26 AM
Nice work mossivo. Your 8 for 8 record so far is impressive.

I'm still a fan of replacing PtE. Has any progress been made on finding a replacement for that slot? Or are you satisfied with it? Its so anti-tempo..


The geese are good, but the cards you suggest cutting are part of the reason that nimble mongoose is good. With less cantrips and less exalted, nimble mongoose becomes a 3/3 much later, allowing your opponent to recover from the tempo you spent your early turns setting up.

On a side note, I would never cut ponders from a tempo oriented deck list such as this. The package of 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder drastically improve your odds of seeing your other dudes, which are among the top power level in the format, while allowing you to have a much more reasonable chance of seeing key sideboard cards.
I agree with everything you said. What if other cards were cut to make room for geese? Exalted triggers and goose are a pretty sexy combination.

mossivo1986
06-02-2010, 12:18 PM
In the match-ups your bring in P2E your not really worried about playing the tempo roll as i've tried to explain. This is really P2E's biggest argument. Although I would like to note that the original lists that Paul had contained 3x Path. I have since cut one in favor of EE. As EE is so universally good against a variety of match-ups you really need it in.

I talked to Paul last night about a 3rd pithing needle in the side as there are soo many decks that are trying to abuse mother of runes/ maze/ vial/ etc. I'm thinking that this may be a good idea. I don't know about cutting ee #2 though.

Draener
06-02-2010, 02:11 PM
In the match-ups your bring in P2E your not really worried about playing the tempo roll as i've tried to explain. This is really P2E's biggest argument. Although I would like to note that the original lists that Paul had contained 3x Path. I have since cut one in favor of EE. As EE is so universally good against a variety of match-ups you really need it in.

I talked to Paul last night about a 3rd pithing needle in the side as there are soo many decks that are trying to abuse mother of runes/ maze/ vial/ etc. I'm thinking that this may be a good idea. I don't know about cutting ee #2 though.

Pfft, mother of runes? Who would play such a terrible card? You shouldn't even worry about such a marginal creature :wink:. In more relevant discussion, needle has always been an good sideboard card, but never a great one. I would add an enlightened tutor to the SB before adding another needle, as siding in 3 needles hardly ever seems like the right sb plan. I would swap one of the relics to a crypt as well, so needle/mage doesn't do all your gravehate in.

As for the path, I think they are decent enough in the matchups they come in. Condemn would probably be better in the goblin matchup (hitting the most important targets in piledriver/lackey/instigator), while being slightly worse in the merfolk matchup. They would also be worse in the zoo matchup. I think path answers the comination of those three decks the best, however.

Forbiddian
06-05-2010, 04:16 AM
You mentioned elsewhere that other people are playing this deck to success. I haven't seen anyone play this deck other than you, and Doug Linn (who I don't think plays in tournaments). Not saying they don't exist, but where do you get your information?

Also, would you like to play some exhibition games against UW Tempo?

pi4meterftw
06-05-2010, 04:39 AM
You mentioned elsewhere that other people are playing this deck to success. I haven't seen anyone play this deck other than you, and Doug Linn (who I don't think plays in tournaments). Not saying they don't exist, but where do you get your information?

Also, would you like to play some exhibition games against UW Tempo?

More in this vein, Mossivo, can you explain how you have a highly unfavorable matchup against UWT game 1, but then because of the controlling aspect of 2 EEs you become highly favorable? I usually think of highly favorable as like >70-75%. So assuming you're making the least substantial claim possible, you still have to at least show that you can go from 30-70% with just 2 EE. I don't really see how you can even draw EE 40% of the games, and that's assuming that every time you draw it a lose becomes a win. More realistically, for a number N of EEs to have a 40% swing, N probably has to be such that you draw EE almost 100% of the games it's in your deck. I can imagine (Barely) the matchup with a deck like this being highly unfavorable for me on UWT if you were guaranteed to start with EE every game.

Mark Sun
06-05-2010, 04:50 AM
You mentioned elsewhere that other people are playing this deck to success. I haven't seen anyone play this deck other than you, and Doug Linn (who I don't think plays in tournaments). Not saying they don't exist, but where do you get your information?

Also, would you like to play some exhibition games against UW Tempo?

I had a small stint with it, I'm not that experienced with the list (combat math + playing with dudes for the first time is a little awkward). Not a lot of results, just two four round swiss tournaments, 3-0-1, then 3-1.

The 3-0-1 outing I beat Zoo (2-0), White Weenie (2-1, fuck Mother of Runes :wink:), Tempo Faeries (2-1), and drew in with Enchantress for prize.

The 3-1 outing I beat Burn (2-0), lost to New Horizons (0-2, probably could have played better), and beat Bant Aggro (2-0). I got paired down twice this tourney, so my buddy at 1-2 scooped to me to try to get into T4, and I didn't quite get there. Two 3-0-1's and two more 3-1's that tournament.


So yeah, I'm probably going to pick this deck up after the 5K this weekend, I have Goyfs but I haven't been using them. Still really new to the deck, as I mentioned I've been playing Landstill, the transition to playing with dudes, interacting in the red zone and stuff is still a little odd for me.

pi4meterftw
06-05-2010, 07:21 AM
Actually, I'm not even sure I'd care if my opponent started with EE, I thought about how I'd play against EE and realized that any good player would just follow within +/- one step of you. It's not hard to ensure that:

for 1cc creatures I have no more than 1 more 1cc creature than you do.

Same for 2cc.

Say you play a noble hierarch and a tarmogoyf. To maintain board parity here, I can play mom, or even swords. If you add hierarch, then I have to play double mom, or mom grunt, or mom avenger, mom jitte, mom swords, etc.

I can't imagine a situation where you can somehow force me to overextend in the crazy ways that you mention, since UWT plays the control role and only has to respond to your threats. (When in the hands of a competent pilot who realizes this.) Unlike the situation, say, UWT vs. landstill where UWT plays aggro, here UWT plays control and doesn't overextend.

But even in the hands of a bad player, I don't see why you were so excited to hear that EE went 4:1. The 3:1 is much much more devastating than the 4:1 you gave. The 3:1 was mom mom vial. If that happened without anything dying from your side, I could see that swinging the game. But the "4:1" was jitte, avenger, fathom seer, SFM. Okay, so SFM got a jitte, so that's really just -1. If you do the math, it's card advantage parity. The UWT player invested an SFM, an avenger, and a fathom seer, and came out with 2 cards. (Net: -1)

The W thresh player invests 1 EE (-1).

And then, according to you that's supposed to be like the shining pinnacle of EE plays. It's not a good trade for the UWT player for tempo issues, but it's not even like a good sideboard card, for kind of the same reasons UWT itself does not run EE, even though we considered it.

mossivo1986
06-05-2010, 12:05 PM
More in this vein, Mossivo, can you explain how you have a highly unfavorable matchup against UWT game 1, but then because of the controlling aspect of 2 EEs you become highly favorable? I usually think of highly favorable as like >70-75%. So assuming you're making the least substantial claim possible, you still have to at least show that you can go from 30-70% with just 2 EE. I don't really see how you can even draw EE 40% of the games, and that's assuming that every time you draw it a lose becomes a win. More realistically, for a number N of EEs to have a 40% swing, N probably has to be such that you draw EE almost 100% of the games it's in your deck. I can imagine (Barely) the matchup with a deck like this being highly unfavorable for me on UWT if you were guaranteed to start with EE every game.

Pre-board your mother of runes kick my ass. This should come to no suprise. Mother of runes wins attrition match-es quite handily as you already know.

Post-board you throw in EE, Needle, and Path and woops all of a sudden I run UWT over because I have redundant answers to Mother. The strategy is simple.



You mentioned elsewhere that other people are playing this deck to success. I haven't seen anyone play this deck other than you, and Doug Linn (who I don't think plays in tournaments). Not saying they don't exist, but where do you get your information?

Team Technology is the team which designed the deck. This is the team that runs the arch-type. They don't really care about who all knows about the deck etc. I am doing it because I wanted to see if the deck had similar results across the board as it has with me and the Team Tech. Crew. Morbid has his results. There are several others who have done fairly well.

Exhibition matches? I have no interest in playing you Forbidden. Now Jeff, if you wanted to throw down a couple of matches for old times sake thats absolutely alright. get on your damn aim every once in a while and we can talk.

Draener
06-05-2010, 04:55 PM
But the "4:1" was jitte, avenger, fathom seer, SFM. Okay, so SFM got a jitte, so that's really just -1. If you do the math, it's card advantage parity. The UWT player invested an SFM, an avenger, and a fathom seer, and came out with 2 cards. (Net: -1)

The W thresh player invests 1 EE (-1).



If you are stricly looking at card advantage, this "4:1" isn't really card advantage. However, in terms of mana spent, the EE player gained a ton considering it cost 2 to play and 2 to blow up. The UW tempo player spent 2 for SFM, 2 for Avenger, 3 for Fathom Seer(bouncing 2 lands), 2 for jitte and 2 for equip. Thats 4 mana vs 11 which is quite a bit of difference. Now some of that could have been paid with vial, but atleast 3 from fathom seer and 4 for jitte which is still 7 vs 4 in the best case scenario.

Without context it is impossible to determine how deeply that mana difference effected board state, but it's definately not a terrible play regaurdless.

TossUsToLions
06-06-2010, 12:21 AM
mossivo1986, I love this deck. I have been testing my own version on MWS and I am trying to pick up the cards in real life (hopefully i can make some trades at GP Columbus). I completely agree that this deck plays differently than bant aggro decks. Here is the deck I've been testing:

1 [IN] Island
1 [OD] Forest
2 [A] Tundra
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [OD] Plains
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [JGC] Stifle
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

I love stifle in here. It just feels like this deck was meant to play it. Combined with early wastelands, spell pierces and dazes, it keeps your opponent off of the board for much of the early game. I really love Knight of the Reliquary, but 4 may be too much and I am probably going to replace 1 0r 2 with Rhox war monk. How are vendilion cliques working for everyone? I haven't tested them yet but I may get around to it. Are they important for the deck?

pi4meterftw
06-06-2010, 01:29 AM
If you are stricly looking at card advantage, this "4:1" isn't really card advantage. However, in terms of mana spent, the EE player gained a ton considering it cost 2 to play and 2 to blow up. The UW tempo player spent 2 for SFM, 2 for Avenger, 3 for Fathom Seer(bouncing 2 lands), 2 for jitte and 2 for equip. Thats 4 mana vs 11 which is quite a bit of difference. Now some of that could have been paid with vial, but atleast 3 from fathom seer and 4 for jitte which is still 7 vs 4 in the best case scenario.

Without context it is impossible to determine how deeply that mana difference effected board state, but it's definately not a terrible play regaurdless.

Indeed, I mentioned this fact and even recognized that the EE player is favored in this interaction, but not by enough to get even close to this being a GG play, especially since no sane UWT player would have this kind of board pressure and then still equip jitte. I hope you were just pulling that out of nowhere. And then this is like basically the optimal EE situation. If the EE player has even 1 2 CC creature, then this exchance has a much different outcome. Let's count mana spent to play all creatures, since vial is inherently a tempo boost in my computations. Thus it is 9 mana. You list returning 2 lands just to list one more thing to make it sound like you have more I guess, but it's not really even a drawback UWT cares about on average. So the EE player gains 5 tempi. The problem is the W thresh player is much more hardpressed to convert tempi into card advantage or pressure, the way UWT does, so it's probably the equivalent of +2 cards or so, whereas the UWT player could easily convert 5 mana into 3 or more cards. So it's a pretty good play, but it's not like it's game over.

Now if we take this unbelievable situation where the UWT player overextended (because he was retarded) into an opposition of 0 2cc creatures, and replace it with even 1 qasali or 1 tarmogoyf, the exchange becomes UWT player gets +1, loses 3 relative tempi. The UWT player is used to getting 3 mana for +2, and then your sideboard card made it 3 mana for +1. There are even situations where I'd want 3 mana for a +1.

If the W thresh player has 1 qasali and 1 goyf, then it's not even close. The UWT player spends 1 relative mana to get +2 CA. There's a card that does this. Its name is ancestral recall.

I can't imagine why the UWT player would play that much even if he didn't know EE was coming in, unless the W thresh player had some stuff as well.

Phoenix Ignition
06-06-2010, 02:37 AM
I should take my own advice and not feed the trolls, but whatever.

Without Mom and Jitte UWT cannot deal with exalted. A Vendillion Clique will quickly outpace any flier UWT produces, and even a rhox gets bigger than any creature in UWT with a single exalted trigger (very very easy to do). Without UWT landing and sticking one of the 2 Jotun Grunts KotR and Goyf are going to be gigantic with or without exalted triggers. I play Jotun Grunt, I know how good and how weak he can be in different matchups, but against bant with exalted triggers he cannot block and live through a single attack step. The situation I refer to is when you top deck him against an aggro bant deck which should already have out at least 1 exalted trigger. Goyf gets to be a 4/5 long before you can reliably draw a Jotun Grunt.

EE kills Mom. Any exalted trigger + decent beater kills 1 or more UWT creatures if Mom is out of the way. Jitte is then the most relevant card to turn bigger creatures into smaller creatures, which QPM or Needle or EE can handle. I can't confirm Mossi's results, but being as UWT is a deck that wins after a very drawn out period of time against decks like this one, 2 EE's are going to make a large impact. UWT's board is full of 1 or 2 drops, so an EE at any point in the game can cause a devastating board change.

All of this is not to mention that UWT has relatively no sideboard against bant. Aura of Silence only shuts down EE's if the person casting the EE doesn't know how sunburst works.

Seriously, how can you say that all of your creatures are so big when you have 4 at 4/4 who both die to themselves, 4 3/3's who can be matched or outraced by Cliques (exalted), and a myriad of 1 power underlings who make marginal card advantage? Card advantage is a horrible way to say what EE does by the way, because if your board consists of Weathered Wayfarer, two Fathom Seer, a Stoneforge Mystic, and a KotWO, you can't even deal with a single KotR. Bigger creatures completely negate literally 66% of your creatures who have 1 power. Turning off the way that they can deal with big creatures (Mom and Jitte) turns them into chump blockers.

mossivo1986
06-06-2010, 03:14 PM
]mossivo1986, I love this deck. I have been testing my own version on MWS and I am trying to pick up the cards in real life (hopefully i can make some trades at GP Columbus). I completely agree that this deck plays differently than bant aggro decks. Here is the deck I've been testing:

I'm happy to see you hold an interest. Maybe we can test the mirror sometime? my aim is messenger is on the left side of your browser screen obv. Hit me up.


1 [IN] Island
1 [OD] Forest
2 [A] Tundra
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [OD] Plains
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [JGC] Stifle
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder


How has Horizon's been treating you? It seems like a cute trick, but honestly the only lands I would consider would be sejjiri steppe, Bajoka Bog, and a list of other sub-optimal cards. But it may work for you. Let me know how it tests.

QPM needs to be 4x. It's the best creature in the deck.

I like add. knights but I don't like cutting rhox or vendillion. Both are very strong cards as well, and create situations where knight is just an attacker/blocker with no real game impact against mass creature arch-types like Goblins, merfolk, etc. etc.

I believe if you look on the primer you will see the reason why stifle is not being run for our models. Maybe it works better for you then it has us?


r opponent off of the board for much of the early game. I really love Knight of the Reliquary, but 4 may be too much and I am probably going to replace 1 0r 2 with Rhox war monk. How are vendilion cliques working for everyone? I haven't tested them yet but I may get around to it. Are they important for the deck?

vendillion was M.V.P. in my last tourney. It's situationally amazing, or good, but never really bad. They offer evasion where your other threats have none. You will quickly find if you continue testing that vendillion without exalted triggers is a beating, with them it's one hell of a clock.

deadlock
06-08-2010, 07:53 AM
Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.

mossivo1986
06-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.

I agreed with your post.

Your build is solid obviously, and while I can't force you to play the creature utility package in the md, I certainly hope you try it. I also think you should cut 1 pierce and fill that fourth pridemage.

TossUsToLions
06-08-2010, 02:12 PM
@mossivo1986
I haven't tested horizon canopy much because i rarely get the one in my deck. Because I'm jus ttesting the deck I think Im going to add a second so that I get it more so I can see how it works.
All of your suggestions make sense and were supported with persuasive arguments. But when trying to follow your suggestions and changing up my deck i came up with a deck almost identical to yours. It may be the optimal build, but while trying to develop a new archetype it doesnt really make sense for everyone to be running identical decks, right? For this reason I am going to leave in the stifles and 4 knights and continue to test them. I am going to put in the fourth pridemage though. I really don't know why I only had three in to begin with.
And maybe we can test the mirror after i'm done with school. Right now finals are trying to destroy me



Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.

I agree that they are pretty similar. This deck just seems more streamlined and polished, though, which is why it originally caught my interest. I don't llike how reliant NH is on the graveyard. But, NH gave me the idea of running horizon canopies and the four knights. My version is kind of a mix of NH and W tempo thresh

mossivo1986
06-08-2010, 03:33 PM
I think it's important to note that I really wish I could run 4 knight. I feel like I am at a cross-roads with the current set of match-ups in the meta though.

mossivo1986
06-17-2010, 08:07 PM
I think the deck needs a new name. People don't get why I called it W_Tempo_Thresh. I tried No-Thresh but thats equally confusing. Theres a couple other names I came up with but I wanted to figure it out with you guys.

I'm updating the primer. I've removed match-up analysis for the most part as there is a shift in the meta-game present and I don't want to give away anymore information in regards to sbing strategy. Atleast in the primer where all can obtain the information. I'd rather have people actually do some information and playtest the matchups as I have.

This weekend I finished 2-1-1 in a small tournament with a tie against New Horizons, ran out of time, and a loss to zoo.

I have also noticed zoo is much harder then my initial testing results showed. I am removing a blast in the sb for a single Rhox War Monk. I'm hoping this will help Improve the match-up.

deadlock
06-18-2010, 09:50 AM
mossivo, about the Zoo matchup: My first advice was to remove the Clique (at least from the maindeck) and replace it with a creature which is good in the Zoo matchup. As i read your card description in the primer, i realized that Clique serves the same role as Terravore in my list / New Horizon: An either evasive or trampling beater, which can break through even if the ground is stalled.

With the deck strategy in mind, Terravore fullfills this role better / is stronger against aggresive decks, but lacks against control and combo. The latter too are not that concerning, there other strong anti combo cards in the deck and control is nearly not existent.

As i said before, give the more "synergistic" version a try, Knight is insane and Terravore too. My list looks very close too yours, except slightly different creature base, mana base and i want to test Stifle in the Spell Pierce slot.

I hope that the New Horzion people will realize how powerful Noble Hierach is, especially if you consider the 8 "mana disadvantage card": Daze and Waste, together with 6+ 3cmc cards.

mossivo1986
06-20-2010, 11:57 PM
Finished 3-3 today. First time i've ever finished outside of t4 with this deck. Akward....

r1. MU Fae (with 8 manlands)

g1. He drops a relatively early standstill, and I let it resolve. My hand builds with no lands 2x daze, 2x force 3x stp. I draw goyf and he snares. We contrinue slow rolling and he ends up on top because I cant draw lands, and I didn't force vial when I should have. I feel like an idiot Facepalm.

g2. He drops another early standstill and I immidiately break. He hits 3x force and slow rolls me. Overall this matchup was more that I drew 5 threats over the entire match and 3 of them were countered, the other 2 were noble hierarch..... Aggrivating.

r2. Affinity. BLOW OUT city.

r3. New age rock.

g1/g2. x3 goyf game1. x3 bob, 1x knight 2x goyf game 2. I can't keep up. Should have sided in ee. I put him on bgw aggro loam but sided incorrectly. More aggrivating.

r4 Affinity. Look ma, I dreamcrushed an arch-type today!

r5 ANT. g1 he lives the dream t1 into my force. G2. I draw very well seeing double pierce double daze force. Behind double noble rhox it takes me all the way.

r6. Goblins No splash.
g1 Mull to 5. I hate doing that.
g2 Mull to six, he resolves triple ringleader triple matron. I hear when you cast demonic tutor 3 times in a game you should win. ... I almost stabilize but he incinerators my rhox. Bad beats....


I deffinately could have played alot tighter today. the matchups I lost (besides goblins) could have played out dramaticly different had I not played like I was retarded. It sickens me how bad I played actually. oh well.

1 more shot at byes next week. Ill let yall know.

paK0
06-21-2010, 11:45 AM
Played the deck yesterday and I made Top 4 (wrote a small report in the appropriate section).

It is really awesome and every card did what it was supposed to do (only Explosives were rather unimpressive).

That said the deck seems to mulligan quite a bit. Is this normal or was I just unlucky? Obv it was not that much of a big deal since even with 6 cards you have a good shot, since the deck contains lots of business and the cantrips to find it, but randomly loosing games because you had to mull down too much seems rather unexciting =).

But well, I will put the deck on my "play again" list, I sure had a blast.

mossivo1986
06-21-2010, 12:39 PM
Sometimes the deck mulligan's harder. But thats the bear of playing the landbase we are running. Noble hierarch is meant to help with these problems.

TossUsToLions
06-21-2010, 10:30 PM
I think the deck needs a new name. People don't get why I called it W_Tempo_Thresh. I tried No-Thresh but thats equally confusing. Theres a couple other names I came up with but I wanted to figure it out with you guys.


Some names i thought of were blue zoo, tempo bant, safari tempo (no idea why, but sounds kinda cool), goyfTempo. I kinda like no-thresh, too.
I am currently preparing for gp columbus and i won't be playing this (can't afford the deck by then) so i might put it on hold for a bit but i will try to continue to test it on mws occasionally.

Also, dont you think that adding one or two more fetches could help out with the mana base? It gets you what you need and it helps out knights (which im running four of). Its tough to find room for it but i think it may be possible to cut the singleton plains. And i run twenty land instead of 19

mossivo1986
06-22-2010, 10:06 AM
Honestly I believe the mana-base balanced very well. I would consider adding another land before I cut one of the basics. The basic lands in this deck are quite essential in fighting certain match-ups.

Hitman82
06-22-2010, 10:45 PM
Just call it UGW Tempo

mossivo1986
06-23-2010, 03:27 PM
Sounds good to me. UGw Tempo. Also i've been testing counterspell in the board, and it's been fairing really well.

Vacrix
06-23-2010, 03:38 PM
Sounds good to me. UGw Tempo. Also i've been testing counterspell in the board, and it's been fairing really well.
What did you cut for counterspell?

Also, when is this getting moved to Established? It looks like its putting up a lot of good results.

Hitman82
06-23-2010, 05:57 PM
Playing Counterspell is like begging to get raped by Daze and/or Spell Snare. Why are you keeping two blue open in a tempo deck? If you're changing to the control role post-board, why? The point of the "transformational" sideboard isn't to change roles but to change the way in which we gain tempo in given matchups. What matchups are Counterspell for?

mossivo1986
06-23-2010, 06:36 PM
Landstill, non blue disruption decks IE eva green bw pikula etc. Combo (additional protection) Its proved quite usefull.

Hitman82
06-23-2010, 11:40 PM
Landstill can be dicey no matter what you sideboard because if it's built right, Landstill is designed to beat up on creature decks. That said, with the speed of the creatures, mana denial and cheap or free countermagic, Landstill isn't a huge favorite by any means. I wouldn't even board in this matchup unless you want to take out Swords for the E.E.s you play in the board.

I'm telling you the Bx decks suck. Just keep hands with early countermagic or Brainstorm and you'll be fine. Relic of Progenitus is a beating against them. You play six "Swords" post-board. They play pointless cards like Hymn to Tourach. Also, you're not going to have positive expectation against combo with a single Counterspell. A single Canonist is much stronger. Even a Gaddock Teeg would be stronger than Counterspell.

Remember, you gain tempo when you inhibit your opponent from advancing his gameplan while advancing your own at the same time. Holding up mana instead of actively hurting your opponent neither gains tempo (it actually makes you lose immense tempo) nor is particularly effective at interacting with an opponent unless your deck is designed to do so.

People need to stop thinking that one-for-ones are going to shore up unfavorable matchups. If you're a dog in a certain matchup you're going to have to make up for lost mainboard value. One-for-ones just don't do that. While having Counterspell in your hand might make you feel safer, it's not good enough and won't make the impact you want it to. It looks like a card that was thrown in because you didn't know what to play and it's a catch-all.

mossivo1986
06-24-2010, 02:41 AM
I understand. I think i'm going to play some combination of grip/ee this weekend. I see both mother of runes and Humility in the metagame at hand.

also yay we've been promoted?

Forbiddian
06-24-2010, 05:15 AM
Nice, changed the title finally.

mossivo1986
06-25-2010, 10:34 AM
Nice, changed the title finally.

Right? Well we just needed something that wasn't just bant aggro.

So I'm fiddling around with the knight/vendillion slots. 3x knight has been working but then again I will actually figure this all out saturday when I test with Paul. Any news from anyone else?

mossivo1986
06-25-2010, 01:56 PM
As of right now this is the generalized build i'm running.


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I may re-add the EE if I can figure out some things with my meta-game.

Lord_Cyrus
06-25-2010, 02:17 PM
You probably discussed this before, Mossivo, but why Pierce over Snare? Personally I prefer to counter their goyfs rather than their removal. I've been playing a version of this deck for quite a while now, only significant difference is I run Stoneforge Mystic --> Jitte. It works well for me in a aggro-heavy environment. IMHO this and New Horizons are the best 2 Bant decks out there. Sadly NO/Pro is dying off I think... it's too slow to survive the massive beats that will be coming soon.

paK0
06-25-2010, 02:19 PM
With the banning of Mystical I can see the 3rd Knight being better than Clique. If more Landstill shows up Cilque is better, but I like the switch.

What is your meta like? Unless Goblins and Burn are running rampage the Blasts seem unneeded.

Aside from that Relic looks really bad. You have 4 Goyf and 3 Knight, so I think Crypt (or a split of Crypt/Macabre) might be better.

I think I'm gonna take this to another tournament, but it might be some time till I get a chance to play again =(.

Boogie
06-25-2010, 03:19 PM
I also think that stone-forge would be an excellent choice in this deck. He does what you want war monk to do, but is better in other situations. plus, I'm a sucker for behemoth sledge in anything that can run it. Makes goyf and knight run over armies of chump blockers, and lightning greaves is incredible from the side. equipment is also fantastic with exalted.

Maybe something like:

-2 war monk
-1 ponder
-1 something

+2 sfm
+2 equip

Lord_Cyrus
06-25-2010, 03:44 PM
@Boogie: Yeah that's pretty much my list right there. I enjoy how it repeatedly rapes Zoo... it just makes sense to adopt the best part of Excalibur and graft it onto the deck if you expect a lot of aggro. By changing a few cards in the main, your percentages improve quite a lot.

mossivo1986
06-25-2010, 04:29 PM
Pierce over snare should be addressed in the primer. If not I know it's in the first tournament report thread.

Relic out of the board is fine. The decks you side it in against it crushes. Decks like Thrash, New Horizons, Lands, Aggro loam. It's not as strong against dredge and reanimator but with the recent bannings it should be that much better. It all depends on what your metagame entails. Play to your strengths. My meta has alot of New Horizons right now, and I expect a dredge or two as well as alot of Lands players so Relic is insane. The argument about hozing your graveyard is not really that important. the deck runs 8 exatled triggered threats to keep you in the redzone ahead of your opponents threats etc.

Excalibur: This deck plays sub par creatures and makes up for it with it's ability to abuse equipment, making each creature in turn a threat for the added investment. It's incredibly in-efficient for a deck like this, and quite simply win-more of the time. Playing correctly and using your threats/ permission/ removal should render these strategies void. Implementing the strategy not only slows the deck down, but also makes your strategy less synergistic and prone to additional disruption.

Blasts come in against a variety of match-ups that UGw Tempo is a dog to. It's been great for me, and honestly I don't see why the slot is being questioned.

Lord_Cyrus
06-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Now I didn't say that this deck was Excalibur or that I was playing it like Excalibur - I merely said I was playing Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte & SoFI instead of Rhox War Monk and Vendillion Clique. The truth is that SFM is an excellent 2-for-1 which creates tempo and greatly accelerates the threat level posed by all the creatures you have in play (which also scales well with Exalted triggers by further empowering your lone attacker). In addition, it totally rapes Aggro strategies and helps a lot against Zoo and Goblins.

mossivo1986
06-25-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm not saying anything is a catch all. I think you misunderstood me.

Lord_Cyrus
06-25-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes, it was a simple case of me not reading your post well enough. Fixed it.

Anyhow, the basic issue I have is - why do you think that SFM is bad in the deck? 2-for-1's obviously are not the only part of a tempo oriented strategy, but they are an important generator of tempo advantage. One of the most crucial parts to this is relative mana investment. If I pay 1W to get a 1/2, obviously that is a terrible deal, and loses me tempo relative to Zoo, or just about any other Tier1 in the format. However if I get a 1/2 and search my library for Jitte, I have now gained an important advantage against an Aggro deck. Jitte may be an additional 4 mana investment, but it has the potential to trump their entire strategy and clear multiple creatures from their side of the board. Facing a combat with a Jitte equipped attacker is so awful partially because there is almost no way not to lose CA and thus tempo.

But the real plus of SFM is filling up multiple roles for the low cost of 1W, which is a pretty sweet deal at that cost. If I am able to gain a serious threat (Jitte) for the cost of 2 mana I can now spend the mana I saved over a 3CC guy like Rhox War Monk on a Swords to Plowshares or keep it open for Spell Pierce. This generates even more tempo, and puts the opponent even further behind in the race to establish board dominance and produce game-ending threats.

Am I missing something? How is that bad? Obviously though, the extreme value of Jitte is mostly apparent in Aggro matchups because it then becomes a CA generating machine once it hits the board.

mossivo1986
06-26-2010, 12:42 AM
I am not saying jitte is a bad card or that stoneforge mystic is a bad card. I just talked to Pheonix Ignition about a stoneforge sideboard package. I don't know that it is or is not the answer. I think i'd rather be playing a threat for the cost of jittes first equip. I think in situations where your going to win already jitte secures that, but only after you've already secured the win. Outside of that realm of thinking I don't know. Ask Paul. He's better at theorizing then I am.

mossivo1986
07-03-2010, 05:16 AM
Report up. Check it out.

routlaw
07-10-2010, 01:41 AM
Put this together this evening and did some testing against non-LED Ichorid, Eva Green, Landstill , and Enchantress.

Ichorid went about as you would expect G1, but I am very familiar with this matchup and definitely think that if you can get them keeping a shaky hand and mull into disruption, you can maybe steal G1. G2&G3 should be way better. I am planning a gravehate package of 3x Relic, 1x Bojuka Bog. The only graveyard deck I am worried about in my meta is Ichorid. There are a couple of other potential good sideboard cards that would be good here-Meddling Mage and Engineered Explosives in particular.

Eva Green went 3-1. Had a really hard time with lands game 1, despite 2 brainstorms and a ponder, but I marked that up to bad beats. The deck did naughty things to him the other games, Hierarch (he can't afford to Smother it due to our threat density) was huge here. Wouldn't have minded another Spell Pierce from the board here. This deck has a terrible, terrible time dealing with Rhox War Monk in particular as it drags the game out, something Eva can't deal with.

Landstill was 2-0, with both games coming down to the usual Landstill problem-as long as you keep one good threat on the board and a counter in hand for Standstill, Landstill is an awful deck. This deck makes it not hard to do so due to its threat and counter density.Again, would have liked another Spell Pierce from the board here, and maybe Meddling Mage to name Deed.

Lost 0-2 to Enchantress, but it was late and I was making play mistakes as I'm unfamiliar in general with the matchup (though not anymore!). The Krosan Grips in the board would have been of huge help (Sterling Grove), but the (most sideboard Legacy viable) card I easily wanted the most was Engineered Explosives. Another Spell Pierce would have been great as well, butI found Daze to be underwhelming in this matchup.

Overall, I really liked the deck. My friends playing it were like "this is it?" and expected me to play out Counterbalance/Top or Natural Order into a big dumb hydra. The exalted triggers are very powerful and help to control the combat step on the attack and Hierarch is amazing for helping you build board pressure while still being able to play Daze/Wasteland. The smooth creature curve in this deck is so very sexy. An additional thing I noticed was that people walked into Spell Pierce all day while avoiding Daze, which was awesome.

I'm playing your most recent list w/ 3 Knight and thought it was fine. It's not like New Horizons, where Knight is used to deal the finishing blow to the opponent's mana base, but Knight is used here more like she is in Zoo, where she's just a huge beast of a creature that has to be dealt with and is absolutely absurd with Exalted triggers. Grabbing out a Wasteland can still be a winning play with Knight though, that's why I like the three count but don't feel it's totally warranted to go to four. It's worth pointing out that each time I played Knight I wouldn't have minded too much it if it was a Vendilion Clique instead.

One last thing-not having to hold open U for Stifle early on is somewhat liberating.

My local metagame is usually heavy on the following archtypes:

*) Combo of all 2 sorts. Painter/Servant, Storm combo, Belcher, you name the combo we'll have some people playing it.
*) non-LED Ichorid, with good pilots.
*) B/x aggro/control, where X is usually either white or green. Pox variants and such, Eva Green hybirds, etc.
*) Bant Countertop (normally this is one of the decks to beat)
*) Merfolk

There is some occasional players of Enchantress, but not so much that I would swing the meta for it.

There is very, very little of the following:

Zoo (too much combo for too long drove people from playing Nacatls)
Goblins
New Horizons/Threshold style decks ( though I have been piloting NH for so long everyone will still assume I am packing Stifle)

Point being, the blue blasts have never been great in my metagame (I've been playing blue here for months now).

I was thinking as such the following sideboard would be OK:

2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grips
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Meddling Mages

It's definitely not the board I would run at a 5K, where I would easily be stuffing blue blasts in like mad and agree with you that people shouldn't question the choice going into a larger or unknown meta. The Meddling Mages really help with the Ichorid matchup while splashing as good hatebears against combo (which I already feel strong against). The EEs are good in a variety of matchups and I've always liked having them when I was playing NH in my metagame.

mossivo1986
07-13-2010, 12:31 AM
Put this together this evening and did some testing against non-LED Ichorid, Eva Green, Landstill , and Enchantress.

Ichorid went about as you would expect G1, but I am very familiar with this matchup and definitely think that if you can get them keeping a shaky hand and mull into disruption, you can maybe steal G1. G2&G3 should be way better. I am planning a gravehate package of 3x Relic, 1x Bojuka Bog. The only graveyard deck I am worried about in my meta is Ichorid. There are a couple of other potential good sideboard cards that would be good here-Meddling Mage and Engineered Explosives in particular.

Eva Green went 3-1. Had a really hard time with lands game 1, despite 2 brainstorms and a ponder, but I marked that up to bad beats. The deck did naughty things to him the other games, Hierarch (he can't afford to Smother it due to our threat density) was huge here. Wouldn't have minded another Spell Pierce from the board here. This deck has a terrible, terrible time dealing with Rhox War Monk in particular as it drags the game out, something Eva can't deal with.

Landstill was 2-0, with both games coming down to the usual Landstill problem-as long as you keep one good threat on the board and a counter in hand for Standstill, Landstill is an awful deck. This deck makes it not hard to do so due to its threat and counter density.Again, would have liked another Spell Pierce from the board here, and maybe Meddling Mage to name Deed.

Lost 0-2 to Enchantress, but it was late and I was making play mistakes as I'm unfamiliar in general with the matchup (though not anymore!). The Krosan Grips in the board would have been of huge help (Sterling Grove), but the (most sideboard Legacy viable) card I easily wanted the most was Engineered Explosives. Another Spell Pierce would have been great as well, butI found Daze to be underwhelming in this matchup.

Overall, I really liked the deck. My friends playing it were like "this is it?" and expected me to play out Counterbalance/Top or Natural Order into a big dumb hydra. The exalted triggers are very powerful and help to control the combat step on the attack and Hierarch is amazing for helping you build board pressure while still being able to play Daze/Wasteland. The smooth creature curve in this deck is so very sexy. An additional thing I noticed was that people walked into Spell Pierce all day while avoiding Daze, which was awesome.

I'm playing your most recent list w/ 3 Knight and thought it was fine. It's not like New Horizons, where Knight is used to deal the finishing blow to the opponent's mana base, but Knight is used here more like she is in Zoo, where she's just a huge beast of a creature that has to be dealt with and is absolutely absurd with Exalted triggers. Grabbing out a Wasteland can still be a winning play with Knight though, that's why I like the three count but don't feel it's totally warranted to go to four. It's worth pointing out that each time I played Knight I wouldn't have minded too much it if it was a Vendilion Clique instead.

One last thing-not having to hold open U for Stifle early on is somewhat liberating.

My local metagame is usually heavy on the following archtypes:

*) Combo of all 2 sorts. Painter/Servant, Storm combo, Belcher, you name the combo we'll have some people playing it.
*) non-LED Ichorid, with good pilots.
*) B/x aggro/control, where X is usually either white or green. Pox variants and such, Eva Green hybirds, etc.
*) Bant Countertop (normally this is one of the decks to beat)
*) Merfolk

There is some occasional players of Enchantress, but not so much that I would swing the meta for it.

There is very, very little of the following:

Zoo (too much combo for too long drove people from playing Nacatls)
Goblins
New Horizons/Threshold style decks ( though I have been piloting NH for so long everyone will still assume I am packing Stifle)

Point being, the blue blasts have never been great in my metagame (I've been playing blue here for months now).

I was thinking as such the following sideboard would be OK:

2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grips
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Meddling Mages

It's definitely not the board I would run at a 5K, where I would easily be stuffing blue blasts in like mad and agree with you that people shouldn't question the choice going into a larger or unknown meta. The Meddling Mages really help with the Ichorid matchup while splashing as good hatebears against combo (which I already feel strong against). The EEs are good in a variety of matchups and I've always liked having them when I was playing NH in my metagame.

Read most of your report. Enjoyed your testing explanations. Some of it you got dead on, other things you were alittle off in my opinion. Bant is a dog to landstill period.But it is winnable, its just hand/land dependant on the landstill players part. if they take a permission heavy hand, you win. if they take a removal heavy hand, it can be tough to fight against.

mossivo1986
07-13-2010, 10:55 AM
This is what I came up with for your metagame. You have obscene ammounts of combo running rampant through your meta. I would suggest this maindeck (perhaps the vendillion count is off, but im sure of the fourth pierce obv.)

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile

I feel like you've addressed the combo matchup prebiard so I dont know exactly what or why you would put anything else in the board for it. EE and path against pro bant. Samurai and ee are good against ichorid. Path and EE, and possibly needle come in against eva green, but it really depends on their models. Just remember to slide force out in those matchups and theres where you get a majority of the slots you'll need.

Overall I really like your meta, it's really skill intensive and it seems fairly unbalanced, which is awesome!

Good luck, let me know how you do in your upcoming events! Thanks for your resoluts and your excitement with the deck.

Keep in mind I dont know what your meta looks like or who the tough pilots are so im just going on what you gave me. You have four slots completely for your meta which is actually really good. Normally I have less, because my meta is all over the fucking place.

Mark Sun
07-14-2010, 11:52 PM
Feel like I'll chime in here, small local tournament today, was running really short on time so I had to throw together Joel's list (1 Clique, 3 KotR) and just hope for the best.

3-0-1 again, ID'ing last round to split T2, kind of reminds me of last time. Quick breakdown:


R1) Blue Lands: Game one is a blowout, slow style. He manages to recur some Life from the Loams until he has built up a good mix of Mazes, Tabernacle, and Factories. I haven't played a match against Lands yet, so I'm kind of nervous, but I scoop to have adequate time for g2 and g3.

Boarding: -4 Daze, -1 Vendilion Clique (hits nothing), -2 Rhox War Monk (3c cost), +4 Relic of Progenitus, +3 Pithing Needle.

I decided to board out 4 Dazes instead of 4 StP, mainly because I didn't know how "dead" Daze would be in a situation; like I said I've never played the matchup before, but he has Factories that need to be dealt with to make room for my guys swinging in. He actually does get the Loam engine going in this one, however I draw some timely Relics to halt the growth. He can't dredge into any more Mazes, as I take the first with a Wasteland + Relic, and has a bad draw with accelerants but no additional lands, so when he lands EE @ 3 without mana to activate, I land a Pithing Needle on EE, and swing in for victory. I see a Smokestack dredged in this game as well, so for g3 I decide to board -4 StP, +2 Daze, +2 Krosan Grip. Regardless, I hold on to my Grip for the crucial moment this game, but he isn't hitting anything with draws/dredges, and eventually I waste out any protection, Needle his Factories, and Goyf and Pridemage bring it home.

2-1 games, 1-0 matches.


R2) Burn: Unfortunately there is a card called Rhox War Monk in this deck, and burn had to devote too much to get it off the board (which I was okay with). A giant (exalted) Goyf takes it home for me.

Boarding: -4 Daze, +4 Blue Blasts

I'm on the draw so I don't need to be setting myself back in tempo, plus he has a lot of 1cc and 2cc, which Daze's effect becomes diminished as the game goes on. I open with Land, Ponder, Hierarch, 2x Spell Pierce, 2x Blast. Seems good to me. I am able to use my Pierces early on a Magma Jet, then a post-draw step Vendilion Clique eats a Fireblast but takes away a Rift Bolt, giving him what I believe to be a land. Having 2 Blue Blasts drawing into anything was game.

4-1 games, 2-0 matches.


R3) ANT: This is post-banning ANT, and I have yet to play a match against it, so I'm wondering how it goes. Well, here's a taste. I open up with triple Daze, Spell Pierce, Hierarch, and Lands. With the correct disruption, and no Mystical Tutor, I force him to combo out without enough storm with a mixture of Dazes, the lone surprise Spell Pierce, and Pridemage activations on his LED's. He finally goes off (I have nothing), but without proper tutoring or filtering with SDT, he can only get me down to 10 from 26 (storm 8), and as he draws nothing, I draw into business and kill him. I'm worried about IGG loop, so I board:

-1 StP, -3 KotR, +4 Relic of Progenitus, figuring that I could disrupt his life total with dudes and keep him off having a proper graveyard for IGG.

He opens with Chrom Mox (Infernal Tutor), Land, Bob, which eats a FoW, and he's already down 4 cards. This game sadly was not close, as I resolved double Hierarch + Goyf, 6 damage a turn ends the game fairly quickly with countermagic backup. Not seeing Wasteland g1, and playing two of them g2 was pretty good as well.

6-1 games, 3-0 matches.


R4) Zoo: So this is my teammate Media314r8, we decide to split so can just go home. His build is a special Zoo build with some added "trix," which I have not tested against but will probably get an idea of soon to come.

Overall, 3-0-1 again for a small amount of store credit. Not terrible.

aznepyon7
07-15-2010, 12:51 AM
So one thing that really differentiates NH from UGW Tempo is the use of hierarch.

I don't play UGW Tempo but I do play NH. An ideal start for me would be stifling a fetchland followed by a wasteland while it looks like here Noble hierarch is probably the preferred play?

I have many questions about this deck, but one of my main is why early hierarch over stifle?

Also how well is this doing against Cat Sligh Zoo (steppe lynx) and Traditional Zoo (FoG/KoR/Helix)?

Hanni
07-15-2010, 01:06 AM
So one thing that really differentiates NH from UGW Tempo is the use of hierarch.

I actually do run Hierarch in my New Horizions list.


I don't play UGW Tempo but I do play NH. An ideal start for me would be stifling a fetchland followed by a wasteland while it looks like here Noble hierarch is probably the preferred play?

I have many questions about this deck, but one of my main is why early hierarch over stifle?

Hierarch lets you use your spells like Stifle on turn 2, while still letting you play your other spells. Stifle still has an effect on turn 2, and it's even better when casting Stifle doesn't set back your own development. An easy example would be turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Goyf with U open for Stifle/Spell Pierce.

Basically, Noble Hiearch is really, really good.

routlaw
07-15-2010, 01:17 AM
I'm a NH player who has picked up this deck, so I'll take a stab at it. I'm sure mossivo will have a better answer, but hey if he corrects me, at least I'll have learned something. :)

Early Hierarch allows you to actually use your mana to develop a board position right from the start. Every turn afterwards you have a lot of options open to you-drop a goyf, leaving U open for spell pierce. Play a wasteland and a goyf, setting up a good situation for a Daze into exalted goyf beats. Either way, Hierarch is good for setting up superior early board position and leaving you with more options of play going into the midgame.

Stifle is an extremely powerful card. When combined with Wasteland, the package of stifle/waste is the most efficient early land denial/disruption plans in the format. It can win games on its own, and stifle is-in most matchups-never a dead card-at its worst, your opponent plays around it (losing tempo) and you eventually wind up pitching it to force (which is effective card advantage for you). Here you sacrifice early board development in exchange for disruption, which buys you time to get out enormous creatures that are synergistic with your early game plan (in the case of NH, and that synergy is why it is so good compared to the old UGR Tempo Thresh builds).

I think both approaches have merit, and what is superior is likely dependent on the metagame you are playing in.

I haven't tested the deck against Zoo. I would say that if I was playing in a heavy Zoo meta or at a 5k/GP (which will be a heavy zoo environment) I would strongly suggest the blue blasts in the board. You really want to have extra removal/cheap counters to burn with this deck. Grim Lavamancer in particular seems especially troublesome.

Edit: I had the pleasure playing the deck again in testing (the prerelease trumped our weekly tourney last week) and was delighted again with its performance against a well-build Stax deck. Maindeck Pridemage was obviously MVP, but the extra mana from the Hierarch and exalted triggers really went the distance here. Every creature I played, even a 2/2 pridemage, was a solid threat with a Hierarch on the board.

I went 3-1 in testing, losing one game to a T1 chalice@1 , T2, trinisphere, T3 armageddon. I still almost clawed back into that one as well until he topdecked armageddon number two.

When playing this deck , it's easy to dismiss it since it doesn't do any of the really "broken" kind of plays that Legacy is known for. It just puts dudes on the table, counters important things (hence the spell pierces over snares. Creatures will not beat you) and swings for damage. It's subdued, yes, but every card in the deck is extremely efficient and powerful and the cards all work very well with each other.

mossivo1986
07-15-2010, 10:04 PM
aznepyon7

So one thing that really differentiates NH from UGW Tempo is the use of hierarch.

Along with many other differences, but another notable difference is qasali pridemage.


I don't play UGW Tempo but I do play NH. An ideal start for me would be stifling a fetchland followed by a wasteland while it looks like here Noble hierarch is probably the preferred play?


Noble Hierarch is a blow out. The most amazing play is to lead with turn one Hierarch, Daze your opponent's spell and still play a Tarmagoyf on turn two. Hierarch makes you largely immune to Wasteland and develops your mana so well that you can play Wasteland yourself. The combination of Hierarch, Daze and Wasteland is the reason to play the deck. Exalted triggers are the nuts. They make you win 'goyf standoffs, make your evasive Cliques bigger than they would normally be in order to race decks with Tombstalker, make your Rhox War Monks insane(r), etc.



I have many questions about this deck, but one of my main is why early hierarch over stifle?
Stifle is a hit or miss card. I've never been happy with it in a deck. The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetchland to Stifle. Your opponent just gained tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetchland. Besides, when people see Daze and/or Wasteland they're probably assuming you play Stifle or playing around it just in case you do anyway.


Also how well is this doing against Cat Sligh Zoo (steppe lynx) and Traditional Zoo (FoG/KoR/Helix)?
Zoo traditionally has the advantage pre-board. Our sideboard address zoo correctly so post board you should be favored.

routlaw


I haven't tested the deck against Zoo. I would say that if I was playing in a heavy Zoo meta or at a 5k/GP (which will be a heavy zoo environment) I would strongly suggest the blue blasts in the board. You really want to have extra removal/cheap counters to burn with this deck. Grim Lavamancer in particular seems especially troublesome.
I've tested this theory many times and it's incorrect. The way to address this match-up is through creature removal, not tempo.



When playing this deck , it's easy to dismiss it since it doesn't do any of the really "broken" kind of plays that Legacy is known for. It just puts dudes on the table, counters important things (hence the spell pierces over snares. Creatures will not beat you) and swings for damage. It's subdued, yes, but every card in the deck is extremely efficient and powerful and the cards all work very well with each other.
QFT

routlaw
07-18-2010, 09:39 PM
Went 3-1 in matches at my local tournament today, with the only game losses occurring in the final match.

Here's my list:


Lands 19
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Wasteland

Creatures 18
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Permission 11
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

Draw/Cantrip 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Removal 4
4x Swords to Plowshares


My sideboard was:


2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Spell Pierce
1 Meddling Mage


Would have preferred the Samurai of the Pale Curtain tech but didn't have them.

Basically the primer list with an extra Knight subbed for a War Monk, as generally my meta has less Zoo/Goblins and more combo and control decks.

Match 1 : versus Reliquary Stax (W 2-0)

G1: I get a nut draw with two Hierarchs and beaters after a mull to six. He won the roll, but didn't get turn 1 trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. He was one turn too slow and died to exalted Goyf beats right before he could stabilize with Kor Haven, Wasteland recursion, Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle.

I brought in the Krosan Grips to fight Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void.

G2: I got a good hand with a Hierarch, again he had no T1 disruption play of Chalice@1 or Trinisphere. I got down creatures and Vendilion Clique robbed him of the Armageddon he was going to cast after he had a Magus of the Tabernacle out. Clutch play, he would have stabilized with Tabernacle effect+2 Ghostly Prisons the turn after I killed him.

Match 2: versus Merfolk (W 2-0)

G1: No T1 vial, swords hit a leveled Coralhelm commander halfway through. Pridemages and Goyf got in the beats and wasteland on a mutavault kept him mana constrained enough for me to run him over with bigger creatures. I see a Jitte late but a Pridemage eats it.

I wanted to point out that this deck seems to have game against Merfolk from the games I played. Especially after board, you have enough removal and attacking with one creature only is very good in this matchup. You can also have Knight eat away your islands if you need an out to Lord of Atlantis, but it wasn't needed here.

I board out the forces and two other cards (don't remember), board in 3 Path to Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives and a Rhox War Monk. I felt that this significantly improved the matchup in my favor-outside of him resolving Kira, it was going to be hard for Merfolk to stick the Lords they need to compete in the creature department.

G2: I get a steady flow of good creatures throughout the match, and stop an early Standstill with a Spell Pierce. He gets some nice Stifles against Pridemages trying to blow up Jitte, but I wind up getting it eventually and he barely is able to get through any damage all game due to my removal. 5/6 exalted War Monk puts the game out of reach and he scoops two turns later.


Match 3: versus non-LED Ichorid (W 2-0)

The local Ichorid pilots are really good, and they hate playing me since I basically change my GY hate every week. Today was only a little different, but I had packed a couple of surprises from the board.

G1: He mulls to five, I spell pierce a turn 1 careful study and he has to draw up to 8 to discard before he can start dredging thanks to a T2 Wasteland. In the meantime, I am not finding much creatures-only a fistful of permission- but have a Hierarch+Goyf is getting in for 3 for a few turns. He eventually gets going but I am able to counter his business and race him before he can really get anything going.

G2: He dumps his hand on turn 2 with a Breakthrough for 1 without a dredger in the yard. I put him on Chain of Vapor or Pithing Needle in hand, and let it resolve since I have an opener with Tormod's Crypt. Next turn I Vendilion Clique him mainphase, with the idea of getting him off his protection and into something useless in hand since he'll dredge with the draw (and then I'll show Tormod's Crypt). He has another Breakthough, I have him put it on the bottom, and he indeed Dredges a grave troll with the draw. I crypt him too early during my turn (dumb!) but he topdecks another Breakthrough and gets a Dredger in the yard after I blow the crypt.

While he recovers Clique + exalted gets in and brings him down to 4.

He starts to get going, and I see creatures but not a Knight for a while (to get bog) and not a Meddling Mage-Hierarch, Goyf and a second Clique. I wind up having to legend rule my own Clique to stop the Zombie army with Bridge triggers on the stack, but clique myself into Knight and then draw into Meddling Mage (Dread Return) and Knight two, which eventually gets big enough to block the 11/11 Grave Troll and Knight lets me nuke his yard wtih a Bojuka Bog tutor. He winds up decking himself.

I always make one mistake or two versus Ichorid, but here thankfully it didn't matter too much.

Match 4: versus Bant (not Natural Order/Progenitus) Counterbalance (L 1-2)

G1: He drew more Knights and more useful cards than I did. I got him down to 9 off Pridemage beats but he stabilized with Knight-Goyf-Goyf and I couldn't draw cantrips to dig or creatures. They were there in the deck, just bad beats.

G2: He keeps a land-light hand with Top, I grip top and wasteland him off white with Knight tutor. He scoops two turns later with no propsects of getting another land drop in time to recover.

G3: More of the same of Game 1-he drew three Knights early and I couldn't draw into enough removal to deal with them. A weird thing here was that we both had one Knight out cycling 2 lands a turn into the GY, but he could do it longer since he had more land! Eventually he got two Knights out and I couldn't keep up, but that was after he already had assembled top/counterbalance.

Edit: Important to note that if I was paying attention in G1 , I would have gone -1 Island, +1 Bojuka Bog and been able to tutor the bog during an attack by the CouterTop player for the blowout and win G3 with it. So chalk that match loss up to pilot error, not deck error. Sadly, I wasn't, and now I feel like I punted the match despite otherwise playing well.

I think the matchup is about even-and he's a really, really good player to boot-and enjoyed the round immensely even though I lost.

Deck is fantastic. I would not hesitate to run it at a 5K or at the GP over New Horizons. You will scare people to death with Noble Hierarch, as they immediately put you on ProBant, and they will proceed to board poorly and play around a card that isn't even in your deck. The deck doesn't roll over and die to Merfolk like most blue Tarmogoyf decks do, and has a good game against any combo deck. I am looking forward to playing it again at our local tournament, and wish I could take it to the GP (sadly I cannot make it-attending to family matters that weekend).

I think I have some sideboard issues that I need to tweak (Mage and the extra Spell Pierce wasn't that good, would have liked another Path to Exile for a 10-card removal package against aggro). Sort of torn about Pithing Needles, but am tempted to put two in and adjust my sideboard to something closer to the primer, with +2 Path - 2 BEB, because we had two Zoo lists today and a Goblins player to boot running good builds out of a field of around 11 people (Summer is kind of slow around here).

mossivo1986
07-19-2010, 08:39 PM
1. How did you side against pro bant.
2. Ive also shared success in the merfolk matchup
3. I agree with the siding incorrectly. in blind metas it happens alot. siding in krosan grip against us most of the time is a death sentence.

Nice performance overall. too bad you cant make it to the gp. would love to meet and chat. Im writing a sideboard matchup analysis that we can work on if you'd like. Let me know if you have any interest.

once again nice job!

p.s. I got to do additional testing against landstill. The matchup is how i percieved. My opponent was missing several key cards and I think this makes the difference in our games if he sees them. I did rape him several times with good draws however, but its still not a good matchup at all.

mossivo1986
07-19-2010, 08:59 PM
also, any form of elves is much worse usually then merfolk for us.

routlaw
07-19-2010, 09:35 PM
I was able to pin the Bant Counterbalance player as not being on Natural Order this week, thanks to finishing my rounds early and noting that he was playing Zoo and had a prolonged G1 (where as normally Zoo would either run him over or he'd win via Progenitus). So I boarded like this against him:

+3 Path to Exile
+2 Krosan Grip
-4 Force of Will (w/ Pridemage I have six MD outs to a resolved Counterbalance, his scariest threat.)
-1 Something else. Might have been a Daze since I was bringing in Path to Exile.

I was basically hoping to do the following in games 2 and 3:

a) Keep him off Counterbalance with Pridemages, Krosan Grip, and Spell Pierce.
b) Have more removal in my deck than he had relevant creatures (Knight of the Reliquary. I can exalted beats past Goyf in a goyf stall)

He drew three Knights fast despite not even having Top and I drew 1 Path to Exile. I just think it was bad beats and me not boarding in the Bojuka Bog, which I normally think of as grave hate and not Knight hate because I rarely play against Knights in my meta to the extent that I even thought that minor grave hate would be warranted.


also, any form of elves is much worse usually then merfolk for us.

Elves and Goblins both seem really scary, though I haven't played Goblins yet, intuitively it seems really bad.


p.s. I got to do additional testing against landstill. The matchup is how i percieved. My opponent was missing several key cards and I think this makes the difference in our games if he sees them. I did rape him several times with good draws however, but its still not a good matchup at all.

Having played quite a bit against the UBG "Deedstill" build, I'll definitely also admit that is not a good matchup. Generally I think the best bet is to try to get a fast hand and put the petal to the metal with creature drops, hoping they have a grip of permission-perferably Forces-and Jaces/Standstills-and not a bucketful of removal and Pernicious Deeds.

Hitman82
07-20-2010, 12:12 AM
You can also have Knight eat away your islands if you need an out to Lord of Atlantis, but it wasn't needed here.

Unless you're talking about dual lands, you can't sac Islands to Knight.


I got to do additional testing against landstill.

Just play three Needle in the board. This is actually a matchup were you might want to Needle Flooded Strand. Every Landstill list should play four Flooded Strand. If you can cut them off basic lands with Needle and Wasteland their non-basics, it doesn't matter how many Swords they play in their deck. Swords is the card to worry about against them. Your mainboard is well-equipped to fight every other facet of Landstill.


Im writing a sideboard matchup analysis that we can work on if you'd like.

If I were going to the GP, I'd play this board:

2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

You don't need Krosan Grip or Ethersword Canonist so much now since Counterbalance and Storm isn't particularly good right now. However, aggro is strong so the board needs to address aggro-based strategies and decks that beat the snot out of aggro-based strategies, i.e. Zoo, Goblins and Landstill.

-Against Zoo: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce
+2 Path to Exile, +2 E.E., +1 Hydroblast
Force of Will and Spell Pierce are not going to win you this match. Pitching a filterer like Brainstorm or Ponder to stop an early one-drop is lackluster when you could be using those cards to find removal and large creatures, which will win you this matchup.

-Against Landstill: - 3 Swords
+3 Pithing Needle
You need to stop mana production and their deck implodes on itself. Spell Pierce Brainstorm and destroy every land that's reasonable to destroy. Needle E.E. and Flooded Strand and Decree. Don't let Humility or some other four-drop resolve. If they're playing janky 4-color, Needle Pernicious Deed and whatever other crap they're playing.

-Against Goblins: -3 Spell Pierce, -3 Force of Will
+2 Hydroblast, +2 B.E.B., +2 Path to Exile
Watch out for Pyrokinesis. It's a blowout. Kill the creatures that matter. Do not counter Ringleader or Matron. Just counter/kill Piledriver, Warchief, Siege-Gang and the like (the creatures that kill you). Ringleader will just net them cards but with your ten "Swords" against them, just kill every creature you see that actually matters and not the 1/1s and 2/2s.

If there are other matchups you want to talk about let me know.

mossivo1986
07-20-2010, 12:42 AM
Paul I sent you a pm.

Hitman82
07-20-2010, 05:27 PM
Tormod's against new horizons seems substantially worse. I think i'd board like this:

+2 path,2 relic,2 ee
-4 daze, -2 rhox?


Don't cut Daze against New Horizons. More than half of their creatures cost three and they play Wasteland. Daze should be good against them all game in conjunction with your Wastelands and tempo plan. Wasteland will be their worst card against you because they're trying to do what you're doing just less efficiently. They can't afford to use Wasteland but since so many Legacy players are terrible, they'll use their Wastelands anyway and you'll blow them out with Daze and your Wastelands.

mossivo1986
07-20-2010, 06:41 PM
So whats your strat with 4 relic?

+4 relic, +2 path, +2 ee,
-3 pierce, -4 force?

Hitman82
07-20-2010, 08:47 PM
I think you sideboard too much. I don't think you need to bring in 8 cards against this deck, or probably any other deck. If you find yourself such a dog to enough decks in the field, play another deck. Against New Horizons, just board in 4 Relic and cut 3 Spell Pierce and a Ponder. I don't think you need Path to Exile or Explosives. When you have a Relic, use it well. Force them on the backfoot by attacking with all your exalted triggers on one creature. They won't want to be x-for-1ed so they'll either take the damage or chump block. With just a Qasali on your side or better, your Relic will keep them from attacking (at least for value) against you. Just like us, they have no long term card advantage so when you wear down their board in this fashion they can't do much but eventually lose.

Remember, when deciding what to sideboard, just throw all your sideboard into the mainboard pile and take out cards that won't be effective in the matchup. You may be playing strange numbers of cards and/or you may be surprised at what you find yourself cutting but this is an effective way to both hide what you're boarding in but more importantly actively thinking about what you need in a matchup to win. You should always be thinking about this anyway. Daze shouldn't be cut against New Horizons because it's close to the nuts against them. "Well what do I side then? Well, I know I don't want to see a lot of Spell Pierces because all they have is Swords and Stifle, neither of which are too terribly good against me. Ponder filters into needed spells but so can a cantripping Relic so I'll cut the worst cantripper in the deck for a Relic." These are the kind of thought processes you should have when you're boarding and playing actually. The greatest skill in playing Magic is knowing what's important.

mossivo1986
07-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Paul is completely right on needle. Did testing against various landstill pilots and needle is quite strong with the strategy implemented on hozing them.

Deady
07-25-2010, 02:53 PM
So how does the deck compare to something like Bant Countertop and New Horizons in power level?

routlaw
07-25-2010, 05:39 PM
I can't speak for Bant Countertop, but I feel this deck has a lot of advantages over New Horizons, which I have also played extensively in local tournaments. The most important of which (IMO) is that you're not a dog to Merfolk and run a better counter suite against combo (note that you are only slightly worse against Storm combo, and much better against non-storm combo). You have a strong maindeck answer to counterbalance as well.

People play around Daze all day and walk right into Spell Pierce. It's such a good card.

Qasali Pridemage gives a lot of decks in the format fits. It is a very disruptive card that is also a good early beater and helps go the distance late through exalted contribution while 100% retaining its disruptive properties. This deck trades off New Horizon's narrow focus on land disruption ( which is strong in a meta with land light combo decks like Reanimator and ANT) and instead has wider disruption that is IMO more useful against the overall current Legacy metagame.

edit: Placed first in my local tournament today, turnout was light because it's summer and REALLY hot here. Went to time with Enchantress (I misplayed AND got unlucky game 1, G2 was a triple Pridemage blowout, and G3 he staved off lethal for turns w/ Solidary w/ no gas. Annoying!) , and stomped Painter/Grinstone combo and Aluren combo 2-0. I should have beaten Enchantress and you can throw that loss up to pilot error and me forgetting about "Replenish" in that deck (and him topdecking it w/ no other draw).

So, I've played 7 sanctioned matches with the deck now, 5-1-1, with all five wins being 2-0, and both the draw and the loss being pilot error. I need more practice-the deck is not difficult to play IMO (a good thing) and is very strong.

ivanpei
07-27-2010, 10:59 PM
I've tested somewhat of a white thresh list yesterday vs zoo to great success. I hope I get taken more seriously then over at the New Horizon's thread as I believe that NH has big issues with its mana curve. I've always liked tempo thresh's 1 mana always open strategy and its disruption package. I've recently made the switch due to nimble mongoose being terribly small nowadays and burn being unable to kill KOTRs and goyfs. Here's my list:

4 Goyf
3 Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Snare
4 Swords

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty
4 Windswept heath
3 Tundra
4 Tropical

I know I may be getting a bit greedy here with my manabase and being heirarch-less, however this list has performed well for me. I dislike having mana open for stifle (and therefore being unable to cast heirarach turn one) and having my opponent drop a non-fetchland. If I am on the draw, it is worse as he may drop a goyf/bob etc. The snare/stifle suit is very good in this situation (those who have played tempo thresh would know). The deck plays very similarly to tempo thresh, just with bigger dudes (Kotr) and better creatures (pridemage is great against many things, while being able to swing for 3 itself). Also, I find it as disruptive as Team America since KOTR keeps the wastelands coming. I think this is definitely more UGW tempo then New Horizons, so I decided to post it here. Let me know your thoughts.

Dark Ritual
07-28-2010, 01:58 AM
That doesn't even look a thing like a 'traditional' UGw tempo thresh list. Those typically play 2 RWM's, 4 QPM's, 4 hierarchs, vendilion clique as a 2 of...along with the lack of spell pierce maindeck. It looks like you are trying to shove canadian thresh from red into white for the third color and trust me, it will not work as it has been tried before and failed.

The problem with NH is its curve along with its very awkward manabase IMO. You're trying to cast blue spells alongside spells that require 1GG, 1WG, among other things and it is, simply put, inconsistent at least in my testing of the deck. That's why I'm looking to build UGw tempo since the deck looks incredibly powerful and good against the field with the strong counter suite as well as exalted dudes like hierarch and QPM who are quite powerful. This deck is defined by the t1 hierarch turn 2 goyf play with a daze in the middle since the tempo swing is huge.

Hitman82
07-28-2010, 07:28 PM
4 Goyf
3 Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Snare
4 Swords

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty
4 Windswept heath
3 Tundra
4 Tropical

The problem with this list is it doesn't do anything. I don't say that to be mean or condescending. There are too many random control elements and no inherent synergy. A deck like this folds to Landstill because it doesn't apply an adequate amount of pressure in the face of Swords/Path. With eight exalted triggers in UGW, every creature is a threat, even potentially Noble Hierarch. This early pressure from nearly any creature you play in conjunction with the large tempo swings in your favor lead to a very favorable mid-game against several decks in the format. Without the inherent pressure and tempo synergies, you're vulnerable to more strategies. The control elements you play aren't universal, like Counterspell, but situational. Altogether, the lack of abusable early tempo, an aggressive early board presence and the situational nature of your disruption will be lackluster against a typical varied Legacy field. The disruption you run should be more universal since there's a great deal of variance in the kinds of decks you run into in Legacy. The more I play Magic, the more I'm convinced being the control deck for an extended length of time is the wrong way to go. You only want enough control elements to keep your opponent at bay long enough to kill him. I hope these comments helped.

ivanpei
07-28-2010, 10:57 PM
I have no issues with your argument. I agree that disruption in this sort of tempo deck is geared towards keeping opponents offbalance until you can kill them. I have sacrificed my clock/accel (in the form of more dudes and heirarch) in favor of more disruption spells like stifle/snare. You would be surprised at how this deck performs against slower decks like landstill. Stifle/snares are important at countering early bombs such as deed, standstill, engineered explosives etc. In this matchup, I am not looking to race and kill him, I also have the option of permanently screwing over his manabase with KOTR fetching wastelands and growing bigger every turn. I have won almost half my matches in the above manner, against anything with a dependance on duals including quick decks like zoo.

I put a large emphasis in this list on countering/answering early threats, stick a combination of stifle/waste/reliquary and ride a big dude to victory before the opponent can recover from the initial landscrew, similar to team america. This deck however, does not suffer from the narrowness of cards like sinkhole and thoughtseize late game, or the lifeloss of thoughtseize/snuffout. We may have different approaches to winning but I have found this combination of cheap fast disruption (though conditional) and consistently screwing opponents mana very successful. I cannot argue about this anymore but would encourage some testing before the idea is scrapped totally. Going the aggro way is also another option, I'm presenting an alternative view of how UGW tempo can be played. Cheers, Ivan.

Deady
07-31-2010, 04:46 PM
@Routlaw:

Do you still play with the 2-2-2 RWM, KotR, Clique set-up or do you prefer the 3rd Knight? How is that been working for you?

How about a singleton Savannah, for an extra green/white mana producer next to Tropical Island and Tundra? I think it could be really useful especially with Knights and RWM's, but I don't know if there's any room for it, -1 Wasteland/-1 Plains?

routlaw
07-31-2010, 08:23 PM
I'm running 3 knight, 1 war monk, 2 clique. This is sort of a meta choice since Zoo isn't all that prevalent where I play. I would reconsider 2-2-2 in a larger tournament. I like the third Knight but if there was more burn/price of progress around it would be a 2nd Monk really quick.

Deady
08-01-2010, 10:30 AM
I just have to playtest it more as I just recently got all the cards to put the deck together, but so far it seems really powerful indeed. Do you guys think there's a place for Jace in UGW Tempo (-2 Ponder, +2 Jace) or would it be a bad move for a tempo deck like this? Also, why isn't this deck as popular as New Horizons or Countertop? Is the concept just too new or is the deck too expensive to put together for most people?

Hitman82
08-01-2010, 12:18 PM
I just have to playtest it more as I just recently got all the cards to put the deck together, but so far it seems really powerful indeed. Do you guys think there's a place for Jace in UGW Tempo (-2 Ponder, +2 Jace) or would it be a bad move for a tempo deck like this? Also, why isn't this deck as popular as New Horizons or Countertop? Is the concept just too new or is the deck too expensive to put together for most people?

I think the reason this deck isn't as popular as other UGW archetypes is because it's not very forgiving. There is no long term source of card advantage so, just like Canadian Threshold before it, there is little room for error. Bant Survival has Survival, CounterTop has CounterTop but we don't have anything resembling a long term source of card advantage. The deck has all the tools needed to win but the burden is on the player to play it very well to get all the value out of it. You should be thinking three turns ahead with this deck. To be honest, I don't think right now is the best time to be playing this deck. The recent Mystical Tutor banning actually hurt this deck because some of its most favorable matchups just got destroyed so you shouldn't expect to see those decks in the same numbers as before. Rather, they're getting replaced by things like Goblins and Zoo (less favorable matchups). I think Dredge is an excellent deck to be playing right now.

I don't think there's a place for Jace in this deck. If you wanted to play it as a one-of in place of something like a Vendilion Clique it wouldn't be the end of the world or anything. If you decide to play Jace, only play one and in place of a three drop. The problem with Jace is that he's a liability against your bad matchups. Goblins is trying to lock down your mana and Zoo is straight up racing you. Landstill will overrun you with removal unless you kill them quickly so dropping a source of card advantage isn't really doing what you need to be done. I think what you need to ask yourself is, "What matchup is this card trying to shore up?" If you don't come to a reasonable conclusion, you probably shouldn't add it. I don't even think Jace is that good to begin with in Eternal formats but that's another topic.

Deady
08-01-2010, 04:06 PM
So I guess it's time to pick up Supreme Blue again, with maindecked Firespouts and other control elements.

PhanTom_lt
08-02-2010, 11:06 AM
I finished 2nd in Manchester Mox Weekender, 37 players, 6 rounds, with this:
Lands 19
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Wasteland

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Rhox War Monk
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard
3x Path to Exile
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Krosan Grip
2x Meddling Mage
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Spell Pierce
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt

Matches: 2-1 Zoo, 2-1 Zoo, 2-1 Merfolk, 1-1 Mono Blue Painter, got a concession vs Hypergenesis, 2-0 Dredge. Top8: 2-1 UGr Countertop, 2-1 Hypergenesis, 1-2 Team America.

Was really fun to play. Didn't actually get to resolve Elspeth in any match that would matter, so can't really comment on its inclusion.

mossivo1986
08-03-2010, 12:32 PM
Columbus Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18421-report&p=477769)

This is what im looking at post gp columbus. I think negate needs to be involved in the discussion.

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [M11] Conundrum Sphinx

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [M11] Negate
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

Deady
08-06-2010, 06:20 PM
@PhanTom_lt:

What about -1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, +1 Jace , the Mind Sculpter? Also I was thinking that Karakas might deserve a place in the deck, as you play 2x Vendillion Clique...opinions on this?

Plague Sliver
08-06-2010, 06:23 PM
@mossivo1986: is there any function that Negate fulfills that Mana Leak / 4th Spell Pierce / Dispel wouldn't do better?

I'm just trying to think of what scenarios you'd want to run with Negate. Is UU too difficult to access consistently?

Aggro_zombies
08-06-2010, 06:45 PM
You're going to have to explain Sphinx to me. Given the number of Tops in the format, it seems much better as a sideboard card than as something in the main. IIRC you don't like Vendillion Clique, but it's a better card by far than the Sphinx is in most matchups.

Negate is an option over Counterspell because it's easier on your mana, and the deck has more non-creature spells that it wants to counter. The "tax" counters are fine in the early game, but there are some matchups where you simply have to be able to counter something, and Negate is a hard counter in those matchups.

Also, it's not that UU is hard to get, it's that you usually want to use your blue duals on creatures, meaning you'll be tapping for lots of green and white. In those situations, you may not have double blue up on the opponent's turn even if you have the mana in play for it (although I agree that the deck has a lot of blue and that this probably doesn't happen that often after the first few turns).

routlaw
08-06-2010, 06:56 PM
Sphinx is a great (somewhat undercosted) evasive beater that doesn't die to firespout, sure, but all it takes is a top or brainstorm from the other side to make it miserable.

Any card to be considered at 2UU needs to answer the question-"How is this card better than Jace?", in my opinion.

mossivo1986
08-06-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm twiddling around with the deck but honestly everytime I go back to the original configuration I just win.

The zoo matchup needs to be thoroughly tested. I will test it when I can. If anyone else can test with this strat

-3 pierce
-4 force
-1daze

+2 ee+2path+4blast

let me know how its working out for you

Hitman82
08-06-2010, 10:06 PM
I'm twiddling around with the deck but honestly everytime I go back to the original configuration I just win.

That's because the original list doesn't have crap in it like conundrum sphinx and negate. Against your harder matchups, Zoo and Goblins, these cards are the nut low. I keep saying that four-drops don't belong in a deck with 19 lands but people just keep wanting to add terrible cards to the deck. Neither Jace nor Sphinx do anything you want to be doing in your harder matchups, which is why you're trying to retool the deck. Your adjusting to a perceived deficiency. Your solutions are just adding to the problem. As I said before, now might not be the time to play the deck but if you play the deck, don't butcher what it's trying to do. The reason the original list wins is because it's trying to do something specific and it's already playing all the best cards to do that. I'm all for improving but narrow countermagic, which doesn't even help against Zoo or Goblins, and four-drops that will never realistically see play when it matters are just diluting and underpowering the deck. What makes a deck or strategy powerful is the ability to abuse synergizes in a reasonable time frame. Don't destroy the curve and countermagic to address short-term failure.

If you want to improve the creature matchups, your best bet may be to cut Vendilion Clique, which isn't an all-star in creature showdowns, and replace it with something like Condemn or just more beef like Knight of the Reliquary. The problem with adding more Knights is that your deck becomes vulnerable to graveyard disruption now. Giving them life with Condemn doesn't really matter. Giving the resources to blank your interactive pieces of disruption because you mainboard Path to Exile is terrible. That's really all you can do with the deck right now. I'm not even convinced the Zoo matchup is as bad as made out to be. Everytime I've tested it in the past, UGW is slightly favorable including post-board games. I understand Goblins is probably the decks worst matchup but nothing's really changed. You have the tools post-board to give them a really hard time and if you lose, you lose. Every deck has bad matchups. It's your ability to dodge bad matchups by good deck selection that wins you tournaments in the long run, not simply taking the same deck to tournament after tournament "tweaking" it to maybe marginally improve bad matchups at the expense of your good ones.

I think UGW is a fine deck but I think Landstill and Goblins is better positioned right now.

As an afterthought, perhaps Mother of Runes in the Vendilion Clique slot is worthwhile right now. Just a thought.

mossivo1986
08-07-2010, 01:13 PM
That's because the original list doesn't have crap in it like conundrum sphinx and negate. Against your harder matchups, Zoo and Goblins, these cards are the nut low. I keep saying that four-drops don't belong in a deck with 19 lands but people just keep wanting to add terrible cards to the deck. Neither Jace nor Sphinx do anything you want to be doing in your harder matchups, which is why you're trying to retool the deck. Your adjusting to a perceived deficiency. Your solutions are just adding to the problem. As I said before, now might not be the time to play the deck but if you play the deck, don't butcher what it's trying to do. The reason the original list wins is because it's trying to do something specific and it's already playing all the best cards to do that. I'm all for improving but narrow countermagic, which doesn't even help against Zoo or Goblins, and four-drops that will never realistically see play when it matters are just diluting and underpowering the deck. What makes a deck or strategy powerful is the ability to abuse synergizes in a reasonable time frame. Don't destroy the curve and countermagic to address short-term failure.

If you want to improve the creature matchups, your best bet may be to cut Vendilion Clique, which isn't an all-star in creature showdowns, and replace it with something like Condemn or just more beef like Knight of the Reliquary. The problem with adding more Knights is that your deck becomes vulnerable to graveyard disruption now. Giving them life with Condemn doesn't really matter. Giving the resources to blank your interactive pieces of disruption because you mainboard Path to Exile is terrible. That's really all you can do with the deck right now. I'm not even convinced the Zoo matchup is as bad as made out to be. Everytime I've tested it in the past, UGW is slightly favorable including post-board games. I understand Goblins is probably the decks worst matchup but nothing's really changed. You have the tools post-board to give them a really hard time and if you lose, you lose. Every deck has bad matchups. It's your ability to dodge bad matchups by good deck selection that wins you tournaments in the long run, not simply taking the same deck to tournament after tournament "tweaking" it to maybe marginally improve bad matchups at the expense of your good ones.

I think UGW is a fine deck but I think Landstill and Goblins is better positioned right now.

As an afterthought, perhaps Mother of Runes in the Vendilion Clique slot is worthwhile right now. Just a thought.

Im putting together landstill as we speak, but I figure im going to run this into the ground until i stop winning with it!

Deady
08-07-2010, 07:43 PM
Well, after some more serious testing I've become a believer! The original configuration plays like butter and I love the synergy between all the cards. Powerful deck!

Keep up the good work guys.

Any thoughts on Kira? (vs Clique).

mossivo1986
08-08-2010, 11:18 AM
Well, after some more serious testing I've become a believer! The original configuration plays like butter and I love the synergy between all the cards. Powerful deck!

Keep up the good work guys.

Any thoughts on Kira? (vs Clique).

good card but exalteds sort of void kira don't they?

Phoenix Ignition
08-08-2010, 12:46 PM
good card but exalteds sort of void kira don't they?

Exalted doesn't target, Kira works here. Progenitus doesn't even have protected from exalted.

mossivo1986
08-08-2010, 12:49 PM
Nice. Maybe it will work.

Deady
08-09-2010, 07:52 PM
Kira seems great in a meta dominated by aggro/Zoo; therefore I'd like to know if she fully deserves the spot above Clique MD. Needs testing, but it seems interesting.

Also, what about the Karakas-Clique combo? It could give some extra edge in some situations and it's also strong against an opposing Karakas...-1 plains, +1 Karakas? We already run 3x Tundra, 4x Hierarch (and 6 fetches), so usually we shouldn't have much problems to get white mana, especially not with Brainstorm/Ponder.

We could even go -1 ponder +1 Karakas...

Karakas-Clique is a strength on its own. The only question behind this is if the change is worth it or not. In theory (with 2x Clique) I'd say YES. Opinions on this?

Hitman82
08-09-2010, 09:26 PM
If you want to play Karakas, don't cut a land for it. Cut another card and add Karakas. What matchups do you want a recurring Clique in that you aren't already winning with tight play? Is this addition even worth it?

Kira is strictly better than Clique in the Zoo matchup but I wonder if it's even good enough in the Zoo matchup. I think we'd rather just have more Rhox War Monk and/or Swords.

mossivo1986
08-10-2010, 02:52 AM
Theres soo many matchups where knight is just the best creature you can possibly have, and even in the zoo matchup id almost always rather have knight then another rhox. Im not racing their life total or burn. Im racing the rediculous size versus efficiency of their creatures. I want more removal and fat to compete. Its either that or cutt a qasali to the board.

CaptShetz
08-17-2010, 01:29 AM
I made money at GP Columbus with the following list:

4 KotR
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Goyf
3 Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace 2.0

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

SB
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Elspeth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce

Went 11-5 (with 3 byes) for the weekend, getting 57th or so place. Lost to S&T Emrakul, UBwr Countertop (punted), Aluren (more like lost to the NO Prog sb plan), Merfolk and Loyal Retainers Survival (punted badly). I was happy to go against any other aggro deck, and I stomped them mercilessly.

Tried -1 Forest, -1 Plains, +1 Savannah, +1 Karakas for the GenCon Legacy Champs Prelim, but got punished for not having enough basics. I decided to play it out and went 4-2, lost to Zoo (Price of Progress) and monowhite stax (wasteland lock).

In the actual Championship, I went back to my GP list and I lost round 1 to ANT and round 4 to a teammate running Madness. I probably could have recovered to a decent finishing record, but Pastimes has crap for prize support, so there is no reason to continue after 2 losses, and being GenCon, I had other awesome stuff to do.

As for changes, the basic plains can come out. The only time I ever needed it was when a player killed noble hierarch and extirpated it, and then wastelanded my tundra and extirpated it. It can probably be a Karakas as an out to Emrakul, but it should probably just be Savannah.

I was really happy with the deck and glad to beat Goblins and Zoo (except when I did not have enough basics). The deck has some serious problems with a resolved Progenitus or Emrakul... as in near zero outs. Gilded Drake, Karakas, and Sower of Temptation are all reasonable to combat Emrakul, and Progentius can be solved with an adequate race. Not very good options... probably better to stick with the current plan (don't let them resolve).

Rhox War Monk MD is the source of a lot of my frustration. It is clearly the weakest card in the MD, but it helps so very greatly against goblins and zoo. It actually becomes weaker against them postboard, since they bring in their REBs and whatnot. VClique is sooo much better in other matchups that making the swap seems reasonable. If I added them to the MD, I would certainly make the basic plains a Karakas.

Other than those issues, the deck works well. My current setup does sacrifice some MUs (combo, control to an extent) for others (aggro), but that was the expected meta at the GP, and it paid off.

Eddy Wally
08-17-2010, 03:48 AM
I top 8'ed once, and won a 29 person tournament with it on another occasion, in the 4 times I played this deck. I play few counters and a whole lot of removal because of the abundance of tribal decks.

1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Braimstorm
2 Ponder
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Natural Order
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Progenitus

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Krosan Grip
1 of that 9/9 elephant which makes 3/3 tokens
1 Empyrial Archangel

Because I don't play with too many blue cards, there have been moments I've been caught with a dead FoW in hand. I've been thinking of playing with 3 Forces and 4 Dazes instead. Daze does less, but is never completely dead either.

Nobody plays countertop anymore, I may replace the Krosan Grips with Qasali Pridemages. The Elephant is all but useless and will be replaced with a better Natural Order target.

sclabman
08-17-2010, 05:20 AM
Here's my list:

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland


The equipment package is a bomb against Merfolk and Goblins and allows more life-gain to fuel the Sylvan Libraries. This allows you to rack up card advantage very quickly. The life-gain is also useful against Zoo. When playing against combo just side out the equipment package for 4x Spell Pierce and whatever other hate you like. It's been fairly strong for me in testing.

mossivo1986
08-20-2010, 02:52 AM
what do jitte, library, stoneforge and additional beef shore up in terms of matches? What does it take away? Is it really worth the slots that your choosing?

Plague Sliver
08-20-2010, 03:22 AM
Didn't he say that at the end?




The equipment package is a bomb against Merfolk and Goblins and allows more life-gain to fuel the Sylvan Libraries. This allows you to rack up card advantage very quickly. The life-gain is also useful against Zoo. When playing against combo just side out the equipment package for 4x Spell Pierce and whatever other hate you like. It's been fairly strong for me in testing.

Deady
08-21-2010, 06:27 PM
@ Sclabman:

The 'problem' is that the original configuration is already tight as it is; there's also no real reason to completely change the deck. With a main list yours you'll hurt the consistency of the deck, as well as the power of the exalted triggers (no Qasali), including the brutal power of FoW (+2 Stoneforge, +3 Sylvan Library, +2 Jitte instead of 4x Ponder and 3x Spell Pierce). You're also adding more 3-drops (+2 RWM, +1 Knight of the Reliquary)...that doesn't seem like UGW 'Tempo' anymore. Stoneforge Mystic and Jitte are SB cards as well.

I'd rather stay with 4x Ponder, 3x Spell Pierce and 4x Qasali main; they're just too important parts of the deck that can't be ignored.

sclabman
08-22-2010, 05:47 AM
@Deady
Those are issues I've been running into... Weakened FoW and missing Qasali. I'm in the process of reworking the creature base, even considering Spellstutter Sprite for more blue cards (but then the deck looks a little too much like the list in the Excalibur thread and I don't like the tiny 1/1 body. The Sylvans and equipment package have been really too helpful against the decks I don't like seeing to consider cutting.

My decklist was a response to the lack of card-advantage in the deck, and it works out pretty well, even with the issues. Tests on MWS show a strong game against Merfolk and other Tempo Strategies, as well as random janky stuff.

mossivo1986
08-22-2010, 01:39 PM
sclabman

I understand what your trying to do. But you do need to realize that your moving in a different direction then where the deck needs to go. Removing cards like Qasali Pridemage (best creature in the deck) for cards like Sylvan library (Board presence against control?) is really not the direction you want to go in.

I do understand wanting to add knights and rhox in the maindeck. I have tried half a dozen times to do that. It hasn't worked well for me.

The point of this deck is to play the best cards avalible with the most synergy possible in order to apply pressure and put your opponent on tilt early. Spellstutter sprite while a reasonable counter, doesn't actually do anything for the deck that it doesn't already do with better cards IE spell pierce and daze. In the mid-late game yes spellstutter sprite is relivent, but our goal isn't to be playing the late game with a deck like this, it's to gain an advantage and ride it home.

Jitte while a good card is not what I want to play. Jitte is strictly win more in my opinion. Answer this: Why play jitte, and spend roughly a turn of mana to play/equip in the early mid-game when I can play better threats? Opposing Jittes? You run qasali, it happens to be the nuts against jitte.


In other news:
Kira has been absolutely insane in a variety of matchups.

Eddy Wally
08-22-2010, 05:27 PM
I top 8'ed once, and won a 29 person tournament with it on another occasion, in the 4 times I played this deck. I play few counters and a whole lot of removal because of the abundance of tribal decks.

1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Braimstorm
2 Ponder
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Natural Order
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Progenitus

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Krosan Grip
1 of that 9/9 elephant which makes 3/3 tokens
1 Empyrial Archangel

Because I don't play with too many blue cards, there have been moments I've been caught with a dead FoW in hand. I've been thinking of playing with 3 Forces and 4 Dazes instead. Daze does less, but is never completely dead either.

Nobody plays countertop anymore, I may replace the Krosan Grips with Qasali Pridemages. The Elephant is all but useless and will be replaced with a better Natural Order target.

Placed 13th in a 50 man tournament with this build today. I went 4-2, and lost to a countertop build (I got him on 1 life, twice, but still lost 2-0) and a goblins deck that got all of its manadenial while I didn't see that one extra land needed to use a good starting hand.

I grew tired of the Natural Order combo. I will replace the Dryad Arbor with a single Yavimaya Hollow for next tournament, and Progenitus and the three NO's will be replaced by a Garruk, a third Knight of the Reliquary, a fourth Rhox War Monk and a third Qasali Pridemage.

I'll remove the two NO targets in the sideboard and two Tormod's Crypts with a Bojuka Bog and three Meddling Mages (against combo).

The Karakas, Yavimaya Hollow and Bojuka Bog work as a mini toolbag with the three KotR's.

CaptShetz
08-23-2010, 01:47 PM
I have not been pleased with Kira when I've used her in other decks. I don't think she will be particularly useful in this deck. At her best, she will work as a counterspell for two removal spells (counters the first one that targets her, and then gets removed). More likely, Grim Lavamancer will shoot her, and then she'll eat a bolt. Or Karakas targets her, and then she eats swords to plowshares. She is at her best against goblins, and then does nothing in any other matchup. Might as well get a better body for the mana investment, or get some disruption from VClique.

As you'll notice, I've cut one Qasali Pridemage from my build. I disagree with calling it "the best creature in the deck," that honor goes to either Noble Hierarch or Knight of the Reliquary (and its probably Hierarch). It is pretty bad in quite a few matches (Zoo, Goblins, most combo matchups) and only shines vs counterbalance and stax (enchantress will usually have shroud for their enchantments). I think he is pretty good and worthy of the maindeck, but I've found him to be awkward sometimes.

I've also found a miser's Karakas to be annoying (I've been trying it out over a basic plains in my build from a page back). I will probably go back to a basic plains, or maybe a Savannah. I've also tried VClique over RWM (and subsequently added another RWM to my board over one of the Jittes). Vclique is better than RWM against most control decks and combo decks, and definitely gets better with the MD Karakas. Maybe I've been facing too many aggro decks lately, but I'm leaning towards RWM for the maindeck.

Meddling Mage has been pretty stellar as a hate bear for me. Aluren, ANT, S&T, NO Prog... they all hate seeing it, and have to work to remove it. Naming disruption pieces to allow my countermagic to be effective has really worked, but so has shutting out the engine (decks like aluren are pretty slow post board, in my experience). I'm not sure how I am going to fit in another 2... unless I start cutting Tormod's Crypts and just abandon any graveyard hate plan. I am doing pretty well against dredge even without graveyard hate (gogo RWM, Jitte and Meddling Mage!), and Reanimator and Lands have all but disappeared. Given my MD from a page back, I may change the sb to -3 Crypt, +2 MM, with one open slot for whatever meta I expect. Maybe +1 BEB, +1 RWM, or something (EE?). I don't like going without graveyard hate (I always find myself getting paired against some random gy based deck), but it might not be necessary... I don't like siding in crypts against something like crucible of worlds (heh, that is what pridemage is for!), or anything like KotR.

The Stoneforge Mystic plan isn't completely terrible. It is, however, rather slow. Sword of Mind and Body from Scars might be worth it (slide past goyf AND leave a blocker behind? Could be good... too bad the mill effect is terrible). But, there is still at least one other sword out there (obv enemy colors, so the white-red sword and green-black sword are out there somewhere). Mystic is one of those cards that will only get better with time - after every expansion, they are likely to have some sweet equipment ready for it. Still, no idea if it is getting any better than Jitte. Time will tell!

So, still trying out versions and card selections for this deck. I started with this deck after trying to decide on a deck for a GPT, and just decided to think of the best cards available in Legacy, and ended up something close to my list from a page ago. I think the deck has merit, it just needs some final tweaking to "get there." I don't think the list is "tight," and I think the deck has a lot of refining ahead of it. I still think it is better than the "stock" New Horizons build, since that deck is clearly awful (Terravore? No Hierarch? Horizon Canopy? MD EE in your tempo deck? REALLY?). Hopefully, this deck will start to amount to something soon.

Phoenix Ignition
08-23-2010, 03:15 PM
I have not been pleased with Kira when I've used her in other decks. I don't think she will be particularly useful in this deck. At her best, she will work as a counterspell for two removal spells (counters the first one that targets her, and then gets removed). More likely, Grim Lavamancer will shoot her, and then she'll eat a bolt. Or Karakas targets her, and then she eats swords to plowshares. She is at her best against goblins, and then does nothing in any other matchup. Might as well get a better body for the mana investment, or get some disruption from VClique.

So your definition of "nothing in any other matchup" is "eats 2 removal spells that are directly targeted at her"? I can't understand this logic, what decks are you playing against that have infinite removal? Is Karakas that prevalent in the decks you play with, and if so, wouldn't you rather she ate that swords than your RWM or Knight? At her best against goblins? I must be missing something here, I could swear she is "at her best" against lands, decks with StP, and any other deck with the generic 4-8 creature removal slots. You speak as if a counterspell to 2 removals is a bad investment for a 1:u::u: beater with wings. If her death is to eat a lavamancer and a bolt then at least it didn't take out your Pridemage or War Monk.



As you'll notice, I've cut one Qasali Pridemage from my build. I disagree with calling it "the best creature in the deck," that honor goes to either Noble Hierarch or Knight of the Reliquary (and its probably Hierarch). It is pretty bad in quite a few matches (Zoo, Goblins, most combo matchups) and only shines vs counterbalance and stax (enchantress will usually have shroud for their enchantments). I think he is pretty good and worthy of the maindeck, but I've found him to be awkward sometimes.
Enchantress doesn't get shroud for enchantments out that quickly since the beginning turns are all about mana acceleration and enchantress effects. You have Spell Pierce, Daze, and FoW to keep your QPM an active naturalize even if they do play one of their 3-4 Sterling Groves. Also, the fewer QPM you run the more the shroud effect is going to hurt you since if you have 2 out you can always just kill the Sterling Grove and then use the other QPM to kill whatever you want.

Hitman82
08-23-2010, 05:59 PM
I agree that Kira is a bad card for the deck. This deck does poorly on defense. What aggressive decks will do is just attack and force you to block and they'll just target you with their burn. Zoo can easily swarm this deck early on and push us on the backfoot. What you want is a card that puts early pressure on your opponent or catches you up from behind like Rhox War Monk. I think Kira sucks against Goblins. They don't even need to kill it. They'll just swarm you with Ringleaders and Aether Vials. It's slightly better against Zoo. Where it shines is against Landstill. They're forced to depend on Wrath of God which falls perfectly into your Daze/Spell Pierce/Wasteland plan. To beat Zoo, you have to beat three toughness creatures so either have a creature that kills three toughness creatures or removal. Rhox War Monk is a fine card for this. I like creatures better because I like killing my opponent over needlessly drawing out a game. What ever happened to Threads of Disloyalty? I think that cards has potential against Zoo.

I think Meddling Mage is a fine card right now since combo decks have become so diversified. It replaces Ethersworn Canonist really well. However, I think Mystic is terrible and Jitte is really overrated. Karakas in unnecessary. It weakens your manabase unnecessarily unless you're replacing a spell. If you're replacing a spell, you're losing a powerful play for a mediocre play except for corner cases.

mossivo1986
08-23-2010, 07:43 PM
// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

How does this look to everyone?

CaptShetz
08-23-2010, 08:49 PM
So your definition of "nothing in any other matchup" is "eats 2 removal spells that are directly targeted at her"? I can't understand this logic, what decks are you playing against that have infinite removal?

At her best, she does double counterspell duty. At her worst, she is a Wind Drake. Congrats on your three mana spell. That's my main problem with her. See Hitman's post for more details.


Enchantress doesn't get shroud for enchantments out that quickly since the beginning turns are all about mana acceleration and enchantress effects. You have Spell Pierce, Daze, and FoW to keep your QPM an active naturalize even if they do play one of their 3-4 Sterling Groves. Also, the fewer QPM you run the more the shroud effect is going to hurt you since if you have 2 out you can always just kill the Sterling Grove and then use the other QPM to kill whatever you want.

Pretty sure you will be a little distracted fighting their card advantage engines (Enchantress, Presence and Replenish) to worry about keeping the pridemages active. Although this did remind me that I like Tormod's Crypt in this matchup, since it helps a lot vs Replenish, and if you can remove their "Words" effect and keep Sigil of the Empty Throne off the table, they just deck themselves.

Hitman82
08-23-2010, 10:59 PM
I like the mainboard. The sideboard looks sketchy and you don't describe what you're trying to address. A sideboard doesn't mean much without a context. There are some auto-includes but for the most part you need to breakdown what you expect and determine where you're weak based on those predictions. I consider the four blue blasts and two Path to Exiles auto-includes. I think Pithing Needle is really good right now. It hits Survival which will be big after the GP, it's good against Landstill, it's good against Lands and it's good against fringe decks that are trying to be cute.

I expect Zoo, Survival, Goblins, Merfolk and Counterbalance to make up the majority of the metagame. With that in mind, I would play:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
2-3 Meddling Mage (I can't decide whether one or two is right without testing)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

If I expect to see more Survival and Counterbalance decks in addition to decks like Aluren and Storm combo, Meddling Mage gains a fair amount of value.

sclabman
08-23-2010, 11:48 PM
Why Path over Condemn in a deck running Wastelands, especially against Zoo and the aggressive decks you'd side them in for? I get that it doesn't remove stuff like Grim Lavamancer other things that don't attack, but it seems one of our best options against Zoo is to keep them off-kilter as far as mana goes.

Also, if you're expecting Counterbalance and Survival, I would up the Grip count, maybe 2-3. Needles and Mages are good pro-active solutions, but if you draw them after CBT is set up they're useless (needle being easily countered).

Dark Ritual
08-24-2010, 12:19 AM
Path is better because you can path their dude then swing for the win. Sure it is card disadvantage but it is the second best removal spell in white for W next to swords. Grim lavamancer is really good against us; It kills pridemages, hierarch's, goyfs sometimes, and vendilion clique. Not being able to remove it is very bad. Also against fetchlands condemn is terrible because when they shuffle their library after having a creature put on the bottom they can draw it again which they can't do if you path it. And sometimes path has no drawback if they fetched all their basics against you you can simply go "path your guy" and they can say back "fail to find".

Also has anyone found themselves colorscrewed? I keep encountering this problem quite frequently and sometimes have to mulligan those hands with only wasteland or non island basic lands in them. I know playing basics is important but I've seriously lost games to manascrew where I can't find an island to save my life or have really awkward starts where I don't have green mana available so I can't cast the majority of the creatures in the deck.

Vacrix
08-24-2010, 01:36 AM
In other news:
Kira has been absolutely insane in a variety of matchups.
In theory it serves the same function as Mother of Runes, but it protects itself as well. Looks pretty good.

Are you playing it post-board or mainboard?

mossivo1986
08-25-2010, 08:09 PM
I like the mainboard. The sideboard looks sketchy and you don't describe what you're trying to address. A sideboard doesn't mean much without a context. There are some auto-includes but for the most part you need to breakdown what you expect and determine where you're weak based on those predictions. I consider the four blue blasts and two Path to Exiles auto-includes. I think Pithing Needle is really good right now. It hits Survival which will be big after the GP, it's good against Landstill, it's good against Lands and it's good against fringe decks that are trying to be cute.

I expect Zoo, Survival, Goblins, Merfolk and Counterbalance to make up the majority of the metagame. With that in mind, I would play:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
2-3 Meddling Mage (I can't decide whether one or two is right without testing)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

If I expect to see more Survival and Counterbalance decks in addition to decks like Aluren and Storm combo, Meddling Mage gains a fair amount of value.

I think your 3rd path competes with my engineered explosives, and I think EE serves u better in more match-ups for alittle sacrifice in efficiency.

2 mage seems perfectly legitimate as we're cutting the cliques. If you cutt the cliques that seems like a perfect replacement for the board. Otherwise if your not cutting the cliques theres no reason; the combo match-up is fantastic if you play it correctly.

I didn't even see graveyard removal in your board; which is necessary for obvious reasons. Dredge still looms around in every tournament and honestly without 4-5 pieces of indirect hate against it, new horizons, thrash, aggro loam, 43 land, and other decks I feel like relic just deserves the slot. Bajuka bog is deffinately an add in for the fourth relic in my build; which coincidently in mvp in certain matchups i e anything where your racing their tempo with knight, or whatnot. It literally breaks their back. It also combos with ee against landstill giving you an out to their 4 drops. and 0 drops ie decree tokens. Giving you 6sideboard slots for that matchups 2 ee 1 bog 3 needle.

I feel like we're making alot more head-way. I just want to get alittle more testing in before I feel sold on it all. till then

-greets MoSs

mossivo1986
08-31-2010, 06:43 PM
So i've had some additional testing take place. I feel much more confident in the Landstill matchup. Especially the 4 color lists we all saw at the gp. What is it with Magic players playing shitty mana bases?

Anyways, Noting that the UWgb Landstill is much better then the traditional UWb models I want to make it perfectly clear that your still a dog; your just less now then you were before because of the immense testing thats been done.

People are giving ras to the Painter decks, coincidentally we have a good matchups.

People are playing U/G Madness, I have yet to lose to it, but I can see how one could get blown out by playing incorrectly. I think Bog is going to shine here where you absolutely need to bring in lots of removal+ bog in order to hoze wonder shenanigans.

Zoo is still slightly unfavorable, but when i've sided in

4 blast 2 path 2ee for 4 force 3 pierce 1 daze i've been golden.

Landstill retrospectively involves
1 bog 3 needle 2 ee, taking out 4 stp, 1 island 1 rhox?

Merfolk remains the same
2 path 2 ee for 4 daze

Goblins matchup has changed alittle
obviously it involves 4 blast 2 path #needle? The question remains what to side out

New horizons is a bye if you play carefully
White thresh is a bye if you play carefully.

Dredge is still bad, 3 relic 1 bog 2 ee for 3 pierce 3 force

loam strategies vary. 43 land 3 needle 1 bog 3 relic for 4 daze 3pierce

aggro loam has seemed unfavorable, or the guy i tested against seems really good at cycling into all gas.

Jonathan Alexander
09-01-2010, 08:44 AM
So i've had some additional testing take place. I feel much more confident in the Landstill matchup. Especially the 4 color lists we all saw at the gp. What is it with Magic players playing shitty mana bases?

Anyways, Noting that the UWgb Landstill is much better then the traditional UWb models I want to make it perfectly clear that your still a dog; your just less now then you were before because of the immense testing thats been done.

People are giving ras to the Painter decks, coincidentally we have a good matchups.

People are playing U/G Madness, I have yet to lose to it, but I can see how one could get blown out by playing incorrectly. I think Bog is going to shine here where you absolutely need to bring in lots of removal+ bog in order to hoze wonder shenanigans.

Zoo is still slightly unfavorable, but when i've sided in

4 blast 2 path 2ee for 4 force 3 pierce 1 daze i've been golden.

Landstill retrospectively involves
1 bog 3 needle 2 ee, taking out 4 stp, 1 island 1 rhox?

Merfolk remains the same
2 path 2 ee for 4 daze

Goblins matchup has changed alittle
obviously it involves 4 blast 2 path #needle? The question remains what to side out

New horizons is a bye if you play carefully
White thresh is a bye if you play carefully.

Dredge is still bad, 3 relic 1 bog 2 ee for 3 pierce 3 force

loam strategies vary. 43 land 3 needle 1 bog 3 relic for 4 daze 3pierce

aggro loam has seemed unfavorable, or the guy i tested against seems really good at cycling into all gas.

Assuming you're playing the list from post #131, your boarding against Dredge seems questionable. At first, why aren't you boarding in your Path To Exile but keep in Swords To Plowshares? Path is always better against Dredge since when you're in a situation where you have to swords your own critter, you're gonna lose anyway. But in my opinion, you should rather board in Path in addition to keeping Swords. I found Engineered Explosives to be not that good against Dredge, so I wouldn't board them in, I guess. I'd much rather board Path. Swords, Path and Relic are the best cards against Dredge. Everything else can easily be played around (maybe Ravenous Trap is still worth metioning). And I would never board out Spell Pierce. It's incredible against them. I'd just go for -4 Force Of Will -1 Ponder -1 Land (depends, most of the time I'd board out Forest or Plains) and +3 Relic +2 Path + 1 Bog. Just try it, it should be really good. Oh and by the way, I know what I'm talking about, there isn't a single deck I played against nearly as much as against Dredge. On tournaments I lost like three postboard-games so far, my boardings seem to work really nicely.

MrShine
09-01-2010, 10:25 AM
@ Mossivo - How are you finding the lack of Grip in the SB? You didn't give your impression of the Countertop Matchup in the last post so I'm wondering how its working out. Also, Grip is still good vs PainterStone

mossivo1986
09-01-2010, 05:57 PM
Jona:
That makes alot of sense. I'm currently doing alot of the testing for this deck alone and it can get frustrating. Thank you for your input, I will test it. EE has actually been good for me. And theoretically its excellent for the situation where the game is out of your control. the idea that I had when I was sideboarding was that I didn't want to pay mana to counter any of my opponents spells which was why pierce was sided, instead I wanted to focus all of my mana on threats and putting my opponent on tilt, Path seems correct, I will be changing that after I test it.

MrShine


Krosan grip is a good card, and has utility in this deck, but i've found that EE comes in more matches, and is vital in more matches then grip ever was. Since you don't want to play both in your board as it's just a waste, grip got the axe.

Also qasali daze pierce force ee are usually enough to handle countertop, also your three count is higher.

And yes I am using the list from 131.

miko
09-02-2010, 10:51 AM
On the base of your list, mossivo, I created my list, that I'm going to test this weekend.
It looks like that:

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Island
1 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
1 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
1 [IA] Hydroblast
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

I chose to add a Volcanic and 3 Firespouts just because my meta is full of tribal/zoo-decks. A boardsweeper like Firespout is the only way of beating them. Tormod's Crypt came into the sideboard due to multiple dredgelists - it's way faster than Relic but I did not touch one single Relic just because of Needle on Crypt.

The maindeck was changed because of my personal preference for the (almost) full Wasteland/Stifle-Package. I cut Spell Pierce, too, simply because I had not enough room for it main. Spell Snare is too strong not to be played with so many cc2 threads around.
My ideas might already have been discussed. If so, I'm sorry for spamming the thread. But if I decide to play this list at the weekend I promise to write a short report.

Eddy Wally
09-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Do you really need Wasteland? I imagine those clog your hand if you want a second or third turn RWM.

Jonathan Alexander
09-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Jona:
That makes alot of sense. I'm currently doing alot of the testing for this deck alone and it can get frustrating. Thank you for your input, I will test it. EE has actually been good for me. And theoretically its excellent for the situation where the game is out of your control. the idea that I had when I was sideboarding was that I didn't want to pay mana to counter any of my opponents spells which was why pierce was sided, instead I wanted to focus all of my mana on threats and putting my opponent on tilt, Path seems correct, I will be changing that after I test it.

Alright. The difference between boarding Explosives and boarding additional spotremoval is their purpose. Path actually prevents them from "going off" (I think it's right to say that Dredge goes off in a way since therre will always be the situation were you will just completely lose control and start to just watch what the Dredge-player is doing: casting Therapy, usually naming Force Of Will (the reason to board it out, they're rarely naming Daze) then either going for Dread Return or going for Breakthrough, dredging a lot of stuff and then going for Return.
Explosives just deals with the Zombie-Tokens they get along the way, apart from that it does nothing. So Engineered Explosives is only good when you're losing, but it usually shouldn't save you. The trick against Dredge is to play a lot in their Upkeep and Drawstep. That's usually the point where you're choosing to activate your gravehate or to swords/path their guys.
You have to keep in mind that you're a tempo-deck and definitely not a control deck that has a lot of sweepers and cardavantage. Explosives does just not serve a tempo-purpose so it's kind of bad in here, at least against Dredge. By the way, speaking of tempo, you should consider boarding out Daze for Force Of Will on the draw. Having an active Force and a Relic against Dredge is a beating, you're just slowing them down so much. They will usually play into your Force Of Will (they don't have a choice, DDD is no option since they should know you have Relic) or outright lose the game to Relic since they're never getting enough cards into their graveyard.


MrShine


Krosan grip is a good card, and has utility in this deck, but i've found that EE comes in more matches, and is vital in more matches then grip ever was. Since you don't want to play both in your board as it's just a waste, grip got the axe.

Also qasali daze pierce force ee are usually enough to handle countertop, also your three count is higher.

And yes I am using the list from 131.

I think you're right here. Engineered Explosives just serves so much more purposes than Krosan Grip. You have eleven mainboard answers to Counterbalance anyway (fifteen if you count Daze, but I think Qasali, Force and Daze are more reliable) so you don't want to waste slots in the Board for things you don't really need. I think Explosives is much better than Grip in general, it's a really good card.
Anyway, regarding your boarding-plans gainst Zoo, did you think about boarding in Relic against Zoo? I'm usually boarding in at least one or two Relic against Zoo. You're literally shutting down their Grim Lavamancers, shrinking their Knight Of The Reliquary and you get to choose the time when Tarmogoyf should be big or small. It's really good here, trust me. I'd take out Ponder for Relic again. They both cantrip but Relic has an immediate effect on the gamestate, which is very important against Zoo. Against Zoo you rather want actual business (even if it's just for tempo-purposes) than cantrips. I'm usually fine with taking out Ponder for Relic against Zoo, no matter what I'm playing. And by the way, I think I prefer to keep in the full set of Dazes but I think that's negotiable because of playstyle.
There's just one more thing regarding the sideboard (there's nothing to say about the mainboard, I think it's great as it is and I wouldn't even change the fetches at all) and that is Pithing Needle. Do you really think it's needed? I'm not sure about them but I don't know how to replace them. But it definitely seems like you're only bringing them in against Lands. Is that a metagame choice? Or are you boarding them in against Goblins? Speaking of Goblins, are you sure that blasts are needed? You could cut them for Submerge, that should improve Zoo significantly since it's such a huge tempo play. I'd suggest to go for - 4 Force Of Will - 3 Spell Pierce + 2 Engineered Explosives + 2 Path To Exile + 3 Pithing Needle against Goblins then. You might cut a single Needle for a single Umezawa's Jitte. Random Jitte from the board is something I'm doing really often recently and it seems to always work great. But that's still kind of a metagame choice, so if your meta is full of Grips or artifact-removal in general it shouldn't be worth testing.
I think that's everything I got to say right now.

PS: Eddy Wally: Are you serious? Wasteland is insane. It's a really strong tempo play combined with all these exalted creatures (especially Hierarch) and Daze. Cutting your opponent off from the color of their removal or mana in general is the shit. What do you think makes Merfolk as good as it is? It's definitely the huge amount of tempo-tricks they can pull while still developing their own board.

mossivo1986
09-02-2010, 03:32 PM
Miko


On the base of your list, mossivo, I created my list, that I'm going to test this weekend.
It looks like that:


Welcome to the thread. Please read the primer and let me know if theres anything I missed regarding card selection. I haven't looked at it in so long that i'll have to get on it.

Cards in question from your maindeck

3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

Why would you remove 1 qasali?
What matchups does snare, stifle shore up that my list doesnt?


I chose to add a Volcanic and 3 Firespouts just because my meta is full of tribal/zoo-decks. A boardsweeper like Firespout is the only way of beating them.

EE does the same job less efficiently but handles a wider variety of threats. The object of the Zoo matchup is to race them with your exalted triggers, and in doing so you need to protect them.


Tormod's Crypt came into the sideboard due to multiple dredgelists - it's way faster than Relic but I did not touch one single Relic just because of Needle on Crypt.


If your concerened with dredge you should be playing Samurai of the pale curtain. Unless you have other graveyard based decks, then its up to you.


The maindeck was changed because of my personal preference for the (almost) full Wasteland/Stifle-Package. I cut Spell Pierce, too, simply because I had not enough room for it main. Spell Snare is too strong not to be played with so many cc2 threads around.


Spell snare is a strong card, but you have to think about what specificly you WANT to counter, versus what your deck is trying to counter. IE you want to counter tempo plays that give you an advantage, brainstorms when your opponent is on tilt, mana bond, path to exile, price of progress, intuition, etc. Your looking to cut your opponents throat early and ride the tempo wave home before they can catch up back into the game. Spell snare doesn't accomplish this task as much as pierce does. The same goes for stifle: Stifle has been addressed in various places in this thread and tournament reports.

Eddie Wally


Do you really need Wasteland? I imagine those clog your hand if you want a second or third turn RWM.

It happens, but consider the fact that all you need is two lands and a noble or three lands not named wasteland to play rhox, and it's really not that difficult. To help you out we have a kantrip package of 4 brainstorm 4 ponder. So yes it does happen, but honestly your better off with wasteland and a tempo plan, than vice versa.

Eddy Wally
09-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Merfolk deals so well with its own Wastelands because it is a monocolour deck which can cast its most important spell (Vial) off of a single Wasteland if need be. It's a good card that doesn't go in any deck. In the five months I've used this deck, occasionally with great success, I've never played Wasteland, and I've never seen anybody else use it. That's not an argument per se against the use of the card (if everybody stuck to conventional wisdom no new decks would be created), but it does tell me many people seem to share my concern about manascrewing yourself with so much colourless lands. You become even more dependant of your Hierarchs.

Honest and serious question: is Wasteland a common element of this deck in your German metagame? Its inclusion really surprised me.

Plague Sliver
09-03-2010, 01:13 PM
Merfolk deals so well with its own Wastelands because it is a monocolour deck which can cast its most important spell (Vial) off of a single Wasteland if need be. It's a good card that doesn't go in any deck. In the five months I've used this deck, occasionally with great success, I've never played Wasteland, and I've never seen anybody else use it. That's not an argument per se against the use of the card (if everybody stuck to conventional wisdom no new decks would be created), but it does tell me many people seem to share my concern about manascrewing yourself with so much colourless lands. You become even more dependant of your Hierarchs.

Honest and serious question: is Wasteland a common element of this deck in your German metagame? Its inclusion really surprised me.

It's a valid question. Without having tested UGw Tempo a great deal, I can tell you that 15 mana producing sources plus 4 Hierarchs, not to mention 4 Ponder/Brainstorm is more than enough. Coming from other "land light" decks, you take your chances that the opponent has a "god draw" that kills your hierarch, stifles all your lands and wastes the rest. I am of the opinion that this mana base is quite solid, especially compared to Canadian/Team America/etc. 4 Hiearchs is really like 4 additional lands.

There are other types of Bant decks that forego Wasteland. See Excaliber and its variants. But this is a Tempo deck that runs Spell Pierce.

I would test more with -1 Wasteland, +1 fetchland but I really wouldn't cut the Wastelands out entirely.

mossivo1986
09-03-2010, 03:58 PM
It's a valid question. Without having tested UGw Tempo a great deal, I can tell you that 15 mana producing sources plus 4 Hierarchs, not to mention 4 Ponder/Brainstorm is more than enough. Coming from other "land light" decks, you take your chances that the opponent has a "god draw" that kills your hierarch, stifles all your lands and wastes the rest. I am of the opinion that this mana base is quite solid, especially compared to Canadian/Team America/etc. 4 Hiearchs is really like 4 additional lands.

There are other types of Bant decks that forego Wasteland. See Excaliber and its variants. But this is a Tempo deck that runs Spell Pierce.

I would test more with -1 Wasteland, +1 fetchland but I really wouldn't cut the Wastelands out entirely.

Cutting a wasteland seems like a bad idea. The entire point of running this deck is abusing its ability to just destroy decks that have terrible manabases and or bad threat density. Start removing the "combo" and your making your strategy less redundant.

miko
09-05-2010, 01:19 PM
I actually won the tournament 4-0-1 (including 1 attentional draw - we played 2 games for fur: 2-0 in my favor). Played against Elves-Survival, Slivers, Zoo, Death and Taxes and Burn.
Won 4-5 of the games because of Firespout (Zoo, Elves, Slivers, Zoo). EE would not have helped especially in the Elves matchup. So I think that the Firespout-SB seems to be very strong if you are playing in an aggro-heavy meta.

mossivo1986
09-05-2010, 02:14 PM
I actually won the tournament 4-0-1 (including 1 attentional draw - we played 2 games for fur: 2-0 in my favor). Played against Elves-Survival, Slivers, Zoo, Death and Taxes and Burn.
Won 4-5 of the games because of Firespout (Zoo, Elves, Slivers, Zoo). EE would not have helped especially in the Elves matchup. So I think that the Firespout-SB seems to be very strong if you are playing in an aggro-heavy meta.

Elves-Survival, Slivers, Zoo, Death and Taxes and Burn.

EE is fine against all those decks except burn. Firespout is a bit better against zoo and survival but lacks against dnt and slivers.

mossivo1986
09-15-2010, 07:27 PM
Ran some additional matches against zoo, merfolk, tes, landstill

TES: I feel like knowing this deck it's alot easier to beat; and I think something additional is needed in the board to help solidify the matchup. This is speaking from me being the TES pilot and a friend who plays this deck piloting it. 2 sideboard slots should be enough. Probobly cannonist. This is only if your in a meta with some TES and you deem the pilots really good at reading into what you have. If you feel like your opponent can see you have an empty hand; then this is the way to go.


Merfolk
Merfolk preboard was slightly unfavorable after several matches. Suprisingly I won all the matches I was on the draw, and lost every one that I was on the play. What does this mean if it's all preboard? I think the current board is fine.

Zoo: I need to test this more preboard to get a better idea. There are soo many zoo variants out there right now. Mastershake mentioned to me that I need to test against the version I do the worst against and continue from there. Ill get back with you all on that one.

Landstill: Still awefull preboard: post is a little better. Considering revisions in gameplan.

lolosoon
11-17-2010, 03:05 AM
Congrats for the good results you had during the last 2 tournaments.

I see you definitly dropped the V.Cliques from the deck ? I'm a li'l bit surpised, cause I thought 'Flying Goyf Maths' were good in your deck ?

By the way, I have a question about the SB you ran :
No more K.Grips ?!

The main sideboard slots that SHOULD not leave the board are as follows.

2x Krosan Grip

Still, and even with those SurviVine deck out there, you don't run them any more...
Relying solely on Needles + GY Hate is enough in your testings ?!

Vs the UG versions with Trygon Predators, ain't they a liability ?


Moreover, are the 4 BEB-like that necessary in the SB ?

I understand from the primer that you pack them mainly for the goblin matchup, and Zoo.

Still, you faced more Zoo than Goblins (and it is logical since there is a lot of zoo outthere, and they prey on Gobs). Aren't you tempted to go down to 2 BEB effects and make room for additional P2E, EE, Grips or maybe MindHarness/Submerge like other 'Tempo-oriented' decks ?!

Oh, and thank you for the primer and the input you give on this thread. The last past hours I spent here were really enlightening !

mossivo1986
11-19-2010, 04:43 AM
Thank you.

I dropped clique because it's bad in the national metagame of survival (marginal), zoo (Bad), merfolk (Bad), goblins (Bad), Tes (Excelent).

I am currently figuring out a configuration that I feel comfortable with that includes grip (although grip is marginal against vengevival and other combo survival decks.)

I will keep you posted.

Also the primer hasnt been updated in quite some time. I will get on that over break.

GGoober
11-19-2010, 11:48 AM
Moss have you tested Jace in your tempo build? He's a tad slow at 4cmc but I have a friend who plays his competitive Bant deck that utilizes 2 Jace. In a tempo shell, I think he's great at maintaining tempo: re-usable bounce, fatesealing to further drag out the tempo gap, and Jstorming to refill counters/threats.

mossivo1986
11-19-2010, 04:26 PM
Moss have you tested Jace in your tempo build? He's a tad slow at 4cmc but I have a friend who plays his competitive Bant deck that utilizes 2 Jace. In a tempo shell, I think he's great at maintaining tempo: re-usable bounce, fatesealing to further drag out the tempo gap, and Jstorming to refill counters/threats.

The problem I have with Jace, the mind sculpter is that while jace is a fine card. drawing cards, bouncing critters on a non enchantment non artifact is excellent.

-Which matchup's does Jace, the mind sculpter shore up?
-is this matchup relivent in the national metagame/ your metagame?
-What cards do you cut in order to run this card?
-It costs four mana in a deck that aggressively uses wasteland as a means to gain tempo control.

Enter friend Matt H. a friend who also plays a bant tempo shell.
UGw Tempo/ W Jace (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-[DTW]-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant&p=487314&viewfull=1#post487314)

His thoery is that alot of matchups get clogged board positions, and that jace solves that problem. This also helps the UWx Landstill problem.

Vacrix
11-19-2010, 07:14 PM
Has Quirion Ranger been considered? It untaps Hierarch to produce tons of mana as well as untaps KoTR for Wasteland tricks. Further, it untaps all of your dudes to block, which is especially strong when you maindeck Rhox War Monk. Its not particularly strong on its own but it can save your blue duals from Wasteland against a careless opponent (happens so often). The only problem I see is that the list is tight so it would be difficult to fit a few in. If Merfolks preboard is slightly unfavorable then maybe roll with Scyrb Ranger. Blocking Wake Thrashers all day is fun.

mossivo1986
11-20-2010, 02:21 AM
Has Quirion Ranger been considered? It untaps Hierarch to produce tons of mana as well as untaps KoTR for Wasteland tricks. Further, it untaps all of your dudes to block, which is especially strong when you maindeck Rhox War Monk. Its not particularly strong on its own but it can save your blue duals from Wasteland against a careless opponent (happens so often). The only problem I see is that the list is tight so it would be difficult to fit a few in. If Merfolks preboard is slightly unfavorable then maybe roll with Scyrb Ranger. Blocking Wake Thrashers all day is fun.

Merfolk is just barely under 50% pre-board, and much better post board with additional removal. You play better creatures, remove the creatures that matter, and force them to make bad blocks. End of story.

The rangers are both poor cards inherently. Which is why they arn't playable in a deck that values its redundancy, and tutors for removal spell/ better threat (post board) in these match ups.

Overall all three cards (both rangers and jace) fill the same kind of problem. They're cards that do things in situations that you shouldn't be in. (in my opinion)

Deady
11-20-2010, 07:09 PM
Mossivo:

Have you tested the deck against VV survival?

mossivo1986
11-20-2010, 07:16 PM
Mossivo:

Have you tested the deck against VV survival?

Yes,

Deady
11-21-2010, 08:13 AM
Right answer.

Still the strange thing about this deck is that it doesn't seem to rise in popularity, no matter the results...which is kind of strange, as most of the (expensive) cards are also used in Countertop builds and Countertop isn't that great against VV Survival, Merfolk etc. UGW tempo should have an edge over Countertop and/or other bant aggro strategies these days, but it might be just me talking nonsense.

mossivo1986
11-21-2010, 11:05 PM
Right answer.

Still the strange thing about this deck is that it doesn't seem to rise in popularity, no matter the results...which is kind of strange, as most of the (expensive) cards are also used in Countertop builds and Countertop isn't that great against VV Survival, Merfolk etc. UGW tempo should have an edge over Countertop and/or other bant aggro strategies these days, but it might be just me talking nonsense.

I can give you theories, but I think its mostly because the deck doesn't have the same cool factor that other decks have. It also doesn't have broken factor, which is a problem in todays legacy meta's.

mossivo1986
12-09-2010, 12:27 AM
Just to update this is the current model im running. The board is more of a what would I take to a GP look. I might cutt a cannonist as all my testing against combo has been against speed ANT, not tes or fetchland. I feel comfortable with the numbers. I might like to add a grip or 2 to the board, but they are really not necessary as countertop really isnt around. Still have to figure out how many needles to bring in against vial mother decks; probobly all three, but before I was siding in 2 path 2 needle 2 ee with great success obviously. Now with the lack of EE the deck looses some of its (very little) versatility for a much stronger more linear approach. Dredge hate may need to move +1 but I dont really see it being a necessity. I've been testing 1 bog for 1 waste against decks like new horizons and it seems to be fine, as it doesnt add to your double waste draws and keeps them in check. Obviously the matchups pretty good already.

// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

mossivo1986
12-14-2010, 06:56 PM
Current board:

4 Cannonist
3 needle
3 path
2 relic
1 bog
2 blast

mossivo1986
12-19-2010, 12:47 AM
Hello all. As it pertains my model of UGw hasn't really changed all that much in the past few months. A few sideboard changes and the like; but clearly we're going to have to see where the metagame goes.

In my local metagame the deck does quite well. Currently I have the following:

DnT
Zoo 2x
Dredge (non led) 2x
Ant
Stax
Dragon Stompy
Ooz Reanimator
Wg Aggro (DnT but with better card quality and less mana denial.)
RDW
UWx control IE landstill or countertop thopter
4cc or New horizons
Team America or supreme blue
Gw survival
sometimes goblins, but rare
1-2x merfolk
Faerie aggro/ 3c naught/thopter foundry/ dark depths combo
2x affinity
1x elf combo


Thats all I can think of off the top of my head. There probobly are a few others I missed out on.

This is currently what im slinging

// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah


// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Realisticly I should be running a fourth pierce in the side for a cannonist. I should also probobly drop the needle count to 2 against this meta to run 1 more relic as TA and non led dredge are here.

I'm wondering if I should be siding in the relics against ant to stop them ritualling, but I doubt it's necessary. The matchup it very hand dependant as the pilot has an ultra quick trigger finger.

The EE's left for the third path, and I probobly should find room for grip or natures claim, but thats really meta dependant on what I see. Countertop hasnt really been a problem for this deck; and if I run the fourth pierce I think i'll be more then comfortable.

Elf combo worries me; as this deck is kind of a dog to elves and green based strategies; but he's not running cradle and that makes me feel a hell of alot better.


When the meta switches I wont really feel the impact that others will feel; but I am still comfortable with zoo/ merfolk/ aggressive style decks comming back.

mossivo1986
12-22-2010, 02:51 AM
Played in the local again this week. Couldnt find the fourth goyf so I played a grunt instead

the board looked like this:

3 blast
3 path
2 needle
1 bog
2 relic
3 cannonist
1 ee

The EE was meant to be a grip, but I couldnt find one before the tourney. No big deal either way.

R1. Tom ledless ichorid
G1. I mull to 5,Ichorid stabilizes and wins
G2. My opener is reli grunt path bog + countermagic and lands? I win.
G3. I have a noble knight into bog, he dies.

Sided:
in 2 relic 1 bog 1 ee 3 path
out 3 stp 3 daze 1 waste

R2. Joe with Rock
G1. He mulls to 4 I open a risky hand against him, but if he doesnt stp my noble, I have countermagic for days.
G2 He puts me into a position where we both have knights (his is bigger) and I have a noble, he has life advantage. He swings, I am forced to blocksys and multi crack wastelanding my own land to trade with him. we both draw blanks until I draw knight number 2. I win.

Sided:
in 3 path 1 ee
out 4 force (tons of discard makes these not valuable.)

R3. U/G Survival
G1. He has the nuts, and I attempt to stop it but he has double force into a creature for survival on his turn.
G2. I stomp all over an even nuttier hand with double qasali spell pierce. I beat him from 16-1 with double hierarch.
G3. We opt to draw it out, but play anyways. My hand is nutty. A curb stomp is in order.

Sided:
in: 3 path 2 needle (wanted the third) 1 ee 1 bog
out: 3 daze 1 waste 3 rhox (not sure if the fourth daze should have come out or not. Will have to test if 1 rhox is better then none?

R4 Curtis Tate. RDW
G1. He goes ape on my life total with a solid line of plays. I stabilize and attacksys. Rhoxy joins the party, swordsx2 make me feel comfortable.
G2. I mull hard to the rhox war monk hand which is supported by Noble. I draw a second one for my first card. Land the first, he blasts it; the second one takes the game.

in: 3 blast 3 path
out: 3 knight 3 force.

finished 3-0-1 (2nd) for the billionth week in a row.

GGoober
12-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Moss, what are the weak matchups for this deck?

Have you ever wished Pierces were Snares/Stifles? I can see the power of Pierce in this deck, it's essentially as tempo as Stifle since your threat density is high and the only threats you are worried about are counters and removals since your creatures are effective and you run removal against opposing creatures. Just wanted to confirm if I got your train of thought correct.

I don't really like PtE in the SB, are they mainly against other aggro decks? If yes, specifically Gobs/Merfolks/Zoo/UGx aggro/Rock ?

I have been testing Mind Harness in my tempo lists (Dreadstalker, Team America, Canadian, BUG Tempo) and I think it answers everything in the format outside of Merfolks. I think that maybe a reason why I shouldn't play Mind Harness because it doesn't answer Merfolks :P But seriously, against anything playing Green, it's so brutal and we all know how powerful Mind Control is in limited, and Mind Harness costs just U! It steals Goyfs, Knights, Warmonks, aka good creatures in Legacy. It's quite weak against Gobs, but it seems that you already have a strong Gobs matchup. Where do the paths come in specifically? Merfolks?

mossivo1986
12-23-2010, 03:56 AM
Moss, what are the weak matchups for this deck?

Dredge
Goblins
Landstill

Most other matchups are boarderline or outright favorable, but these three are the ones that give this deck the biggest problem generally.


Have you ever wished Pierces were Snares/Stifles? I can see the power of Pierce in this deck, it's essentially as tempo as Stifle since your threat density is high and the only threats you are worried about are counters and removals since your creatures are effective and you run removal against opposing creatures.

No. In order to play stifle you have to hold mana up in the hopes that your opponent is going to fetch a land or crack an ee. This isn't gaining you anything, because your not improving your board position. Pierce gains you a small ammount of tempo because its more likely your opponent is going to be doing something to try to win the game, or remove a creature; usually resulting in pierce denying their gameplan, while you continue your clock.


I don't really like PtE in the SB, are they mainly against other aggro decks? If yes, specifically Gobs/Merfolks/Zoo/UGx aggro/Rock ?


Yes to all. Path is an excellent card. Your siding in 3 to give you a redundant draw of creature, removal, land, kantrip. It changes between matchups obviously. If your fighting against rock with lots of discard then obviously FOW is the first thing to go for paths and such. Whereas if your playing against the mirror pierce isn't exactly optimal.


I have been testing Mind Harness in my tempo lists (Dreadstalker, Team America, Canadian, BUG Tempo) and I think it answers everything in the format outside of Merfolks. I think that maybe a reason why I shouldn't play Mind Harness because it doesn't answer Merfolks :P But seriously, against anything playing Green, it's so brutal and we all know how powerful Mind Control is in limited, and Mind Harness costs just U! It steals Goyfs, Knights, Warmonks, aka good creatures in Legacy. It's quite weak against Gobs, but it seems that you already have a strong Gobs matchup. Where do the paths come in specifically? Merfolks?

Mind harness is an excellent card. Path is simply better for a deck like this, because you don't want to specify your removal and while harness is game breaking; keeping your opponent one step back IE leaving them with subpar creatures to block or crack back at your with, then following it up with another kantrip into removal spell or better threat is a fine gameplan.

Over Christmas break I will be updating the primer again. It needs some work, but when it's done I suggest you read it and you'll get a much better idea of what this deck is capable of.

mossivo1986
12-27-2010, 07:30 AM
Update the Primer. Still need to add matchup-analysis somewhere in there, but I shortened the primer dramaticly, and made it more interesting to read at the same time.

Check it out and tell me what you think.

GGoober
12-27-2010, 01:52 PM
Nice primer. I see your philosophy of not running Stifles. Perhaps a good analysis on the % chances of Stifles being effective against the current metagame is fruitful, but from my experiences, if you do not stifle a turn 1-2 land, the card actually ends up destroying your tempo. But when you do, it is quite a good boost considering the deck can afford to keep turn 1-2 open just to disrupt/counter.

But I've been somewhat displeased with Stifles myself for the same reason. You hold it in your hand and if they dropped a dual and go off, if you don't have a Brainstorm/Daze, you lost tempo, by not playing the Hierarch that can set you up for more craziness next turn, or the Ponder to dig into better cards to out-tempo your opponents. Although to be fair, Stifle's application outside of its early game mana-denial is still relevant against many other targets later on in the game (EE, wastelands, Factory activation) althouhg those gains are incrementally bad compared to an early Stifle on a fetch but if you don't pull that off, you don't really develop your tempo game anywhere.

Good write up. I'll piece this up on day to play. RWM and Pridemage are like the best creatures in the deck. Amazing what standard commons and uncommons can do for legacy :P

hyc8028
12-27-2010, 02:11 PM
Nice primer! It would be also nice if you can list out what to side in game 2 and/or game 3 against the common archtype.

GGoober
12-27-2010, 03:30 PM
Yupp and common questions/scenarios: "Do you force that Turn 1 Top?!" God I hate it when Top hits play.

That's the nice thing of having 3 Pierce over Stifles, you don't have to force that Top :P

Koby
12-27-2010, 03:47 PM
Big question still remains, do you Force Top turn 1 on the draw? I'm always inclined to do so, because I hate how it slows down the game.

Hitman82
12-27-2010, 05:54 PM
Nice primer! It would be also nice if you can list out what to side in game 2 and/or game 3 against the common archtype.

Basically, in creature matchups like Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, etc. you side out cards that don't generate you much advantage, like Force of Will, for more removal, like Path to Exile. This way, you just clear their creatures out of the way and swing with exalted creatures. Against Goblins, you bring in the Blue Blasts too. Needle is a catch-all that was for things like Survival, Mother of Runes, Explosives, etc. Canonist comes in for storm combo and Relic/Tormod's/whatever comes in against Dredge and Loam. I don't know why he plays Bojuka Bog over better graveyard removal or the Explosives, which is pretty bad. If he's bringing Explosives in for Counterbalance, Krosan Grip is almost strictly better. If he's trying to get value out of blowing up a board with several 1/1s, you're incurring too much damage before getting value out of the Explosives. It's just better to side in cheap removal, clear the important creatures off the board and swing/block with your better creatures. The sideboard is pretty self-explanatory.


Big question still remains, do you Force Top turn 1 on the draw? I'm always inclined to do so, because I hate how it slows down the game.

It always depends. I probably wouldn't the majority of the time. How slow it makes the game shouldn't be a consideration. How much it contributes to winning is a much better reason. Since you're a tempo deck, tempo sinkholes like Top aren't the problem. Sweepers, large creatures, sometimes countermagic and things like this are what matter.

mossivo1986
12-28-2010, 06:13 PM
I will be working on a match-up analysis section soon.

mossivo1986
12-29-2010, 04:59 PM
Worked on some of the match-up analysis. I tried to include QA in the intro. Let me know if there are some QA that I should answer?

Mana Drain
12-30-2010, 01:53 AM
Moss, I've been playing a your build with a few minor changes, and I just have a few questions/points of interest:

1) KotR, and the fact that you're not running 4. I understand you have a 3/3 split between him and Monk, but other than Goofy himself, Knight is always the biggest creature on the board. He's easier on the color requirements than Monk, doesn't die to REB/Pyro that the Zoo/Gobs player will be siding in, and trades your lands for Wastelands while pumping himself. There is no faster clock in Legacy for 3 mana, and it helps compensate for our lack of heavy removal (only 4 Swords). Monk is still great, but I don't think you should cut a Knight for one.

2) 6 fetches vs 8, why? Fetches are the most valuable source of color fixing in the deck, protection from opposing Wastelands, shuffle effects for our cantrips, minimize fatesealing effectiveness of Jace, give us "virtual" basic lands if needed, and of course, pump Knight. The benefits of fetchs outway the vulnerability to Stifle in my opinion.

3) Spell Snare vs. Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce is an amazing counter, but I find the things I'm most scared of cost 2, and are often creatures. Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Dark Confidant, Pridemage, Jitte, Price of Progress, Standstill, Piledriver, LoA, Corralhelm, and to name a few cards from the decks you listed as your meta: Thopter Foundry, Hexmage, Bitterblossom, Ravager, Cranial Plating, Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish, Stoneforge, etc. Some of those are non-creature, but the worst to see (Tarmogoyf, Confidant, LoA, Piledriver), barring CB and Standstill, are dudes that Pierce can't hit. If we're playing a tight tempo game, cards like NO, Moat/Humility/WoG, Jace/Elspeth shouldn't be hitting in the first place, and we run 4 Daze if they cast it too early. So, most dangerous non-creature spells that don't cost 2 would include Swords/Path, Top, Vial, and Duress/Thoughtseize, which all cost 1 mana, which relagates Spell Pierce to the first 3 turns. Spell Snare is always at optimal efficiency, better on the draw, and is only dead if your opponent doesn't play 2 drops, which means your opponent is playing a Standard deck.
It may be personal preference, but I feel that Pierce is much better in the SB against non-aggro matchups with a slower gameplan.

4) I've never found myself wanting to fetch up basic Plains. Many a time have I wanted an Island, ensuring that cantrips and counters remain online, allowing you to dig for the necessary white source. Again, personal preference, but I feel Plains is just suboptimal.

Some SB nitpicking/constructive criticism:

5) I'm usually a Relic over Crypt guy, but with at least 7 cards in our MD that are GY dependent, I don't feel Relic is optimal. Crypt is faster against Loam and Dredge, doesn't get hit by Chalice at 1, and doesn't shrink our main beaters. The ability to drop Crypt and use my mana has been far more important than drawing a card and not playing spells in my matches.

6) I play in a meta that has some serious green aggro like yours, and Submerge has been excellent as a 2 of. I also have some red from Zoo and Goblins, so I have 2 BEB in there also, which is nice against TES (if the ANT list you have doesn't run red, disregard that). I use them in the Needle slots and 1 Path slot as the only targets I've found worthwhile are Top, Vial, and Jace playing this deck.

It's still a great deck, and is very consistent. Combo is a bad matchup in my opinion, as they usually bring in some Deathmarks/Slaughter Pact for the Canonist and you don't always have the counters to protect her. We can totally handle aggro with the SB, and CB/Control decks are usually good matchups, barring an early CB blowout (which does happen unfortunately).

Great work on the deck Moss and good luck!

mossivo1986
12-30-2010, 03:17 AM
Firstly, i''d like to ask if you read the primer? What did you think?



1) KotR, and the fact that you're not running 4. I understand you have a 3/3 split between him and Monk, but other than Goofy himself, Knight is always the biggest creature on the board. He's easier on the color requirements than Monk, doesn't die to REB/Pyro that the Zoo/Gobs player will be siding in, and trades your lands for Wastelands while pumping himself. There is no faster clock in Legacy for 3 mana, and it helps compensate for our lack of heavy removal (only 4 Swords). Monk is still great, but I don't think you should cut a Knight for one.

-Knight is an excellent mid-late game card against the format; some decks its an absolute blowout against. Phenominal finisher in a deck like this. The fact that mid-game it's larger then goyf, and late game it can rival dreadnaught is just obscene. The problem is that knight scales a bit slower then guyf in the beggining of a game, and there are alot of times when pancake flippers life advantage is a better racing tool. Another problem is that with 7 dudes that are effected by gy hate, your already alittle more prone then earlier models. If you moved up to 4 it would probobly be even more so. Thats not to say you shouldn't run 4. As a tempo deck if your meta calls for four knight, then yes obviously run it. But if your meta has matchups where pancake flipper is just better, then clearly you would want to run a model more like mine. The key is to find a balance that your comfortable with. Honestly I really hope that Clique is worth playing again "IE zoo stays bad in the national metagame" becsause thats an even better blowout.


2) 6 fetches vs 8, why? Fetches are the most valuable source of color fixing in the deck, protection from opposing Wastelands, shuffle effects for our cantrips, minimize fatesealing effectiveness of Jace, give us "virtual" basic lands if needed, and of course, pump Knight. The benefits of fetchs out-way the vulnerability to Stifle in my opinion.

If you've ever taken hands against other tempo style decks then you'd understand. Taking the wasteland fetch noble hand is a death sentence because of the risk involved unless you mise out of it. All the things you labelled are nice qualities that fetches all share, but is there an absolute reason that you'd want to add even more risk to a deck with an already shaky manabase? Remember that this list is meant to give you the maximum assurance that your going to "play it safe" while doing what you want to do. If you want to increase that risk, thats perfectly fine. Just remember that there isn't a "broken factor" in this deck like dreadstill, vvsurvival, ichorid, tendrills combo and you should be alright.



3) Spell Snare vs. Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce is an amazing counter, but I find the things I'm most scared of cost 2, and are often creatures. Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Dark Confidant, Pridemage, Jitte, Price of Progress, Standstill, Piledriver, LoA, Corralhelm, and to name a few cards from the decks you listed as your meta: Thopter Foundry, Hexmage, Bitterblossom, Ravager, Cranial Plating, Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish, Stoneforge, etc. Some of those are non-creature, but the worst to see (Tarmogoyf, Confidant, LoA, Piledriver), barring CB and Standstill, are dudes that Pierce can't hit. If we're playing a tight tempo game, cards like NO, Moat/Humility/WoG, Jace/Elspeth shouldn't be hitting in the first place, and we run 4 Daze if they cast it too early. So, most dangerous non-creature spells that don't cost 2 would include Swords/Path, Top, Vial, and Duress/Thoughtseize, which all cost 1 mana, which relagates Spell Pierce to the first 3 turns. Spell Snare is always at optimal efficiency, better on the draw, and is only dead if your opponent doesn't play 2 drops, which means your opponent is playing a Standard deck.

It may be personal preference, but I feel that Pierce is much better in the SB against non-aggro matchups with a slower gameplan.

First off if your afraid of opposing dudes other then perhaps bob, your proboby doing it wrong. You generally run more efficient creatures for what they do then your opponent outside of tribal and zoo matchups. The exalted triggers help even out the tribal and zoo matchups as well as bring utility to a board state. In the two drops you named, you should actually be fearful of the following: counterbalance, bob, piledriver "situationally", Loa, Corralheim. Spell pierce is slightly better generally because we're a tempo style deck and not a control deck. We care more about things that are not creatures, because ours are generally better, and thus we either want to protect ours; or stop their bombs/ countermagic. Things like WoG humility moat elspeth don't "really" exhist in legacy in real numbers because they are simply too expensive for the format. This deck should should be an excellent example of why. We run pleanty of ways to keep them off that mana, or stop them when they get there.



4) I've never found myself wanting to fetch up basic Plains. Many a time have I wanted an Island, ensuring that cantrips and counters remain online, allowing you to dig for the necessary white source. Again, personal preference, but I feel Plains is just suboptimal.

Then run basic island? I cutt it because I deemed it not what I wanted. I always wanted white or green; but if you want island then go for it!

Some SB nitpicking/constructive criticism:



5) I'm usually a Relic over Crypt guy, but with at least 7 cards in our MD that are GY dependent, I don't feel Relic is optimal. Crypt is faster against Loam and Dredge, doesn't get hit by Chalice at 1, and doesn't shrink our main beaters. The ability to drop Crypt and use my mana has been far more important than drawing a card and not playing spells in my matches.

It's really not a what you prefer as much as what the meta calls for. My meta includes alot of tempo decks ledless dredge which relic is fine against. This is why I play relic. Relic is better against loam decks.


6) I play in a meta that has some serious green aggro like yours, and Submerge has been excellent as a 2 of. I also have some red from Zoo and Goblins, so I have 2 BEB in there also, which is nice against TES (if the ANT list you have doesn't run red, disregard that). I use them in the Needle slots and 1 Path slot as the only targets I've found worthwhile are Top, Vial, and Jace playing this deck.

Blast is an excellent choice for our board. Path over submerge. You want solid removal, not potential removal or time walk removal.

The ant list around my parts is an ari lax 4 cabal ritual tons of duress effects style list. It doesnt play B wish.

Things needle is good against, enough to warrent bringing it in.

Equipment, Mangara, occasionally a fetchland if it resolves "landstill", EE, Top, plainswalkers, decree, deed, maze of ith, port, vial, survival "until its banned" fauna shaman, if they are playing mishra and muta, the one your choosing not to wasteland, or if they oopsy multiples and im absolutely sure the list goes on even though i've run out of things to say. Needle is the sickness and is often a 3 of in my boards. I feel very confident with this statement.


It's still a great deck, and is very consistent. Combo is a bad matchup in my opinion, as they usually bring in some Deathmarks/Slaughter Pact for the Canonist and you don't always have the counters to protect her. We can totally handle aggro with the SB, and CB/Control decks are usually good matchups, barring an early CB blowout (which does happen unfortunately).

combo can be scary, but I've found it to be quite comfortable. they clearly can steal games from you, but in all honesty i've only had a few problems with the archtype and they all are based on time. If they go off before I get a turn obviously my chances arn't good at being able to stop them. The longer the game goes on the better my chances are. If they are siding in cards against cannonist thats fine. They are more then likely non creature spells that i'm dealing with anyways.

Great work on the deck Moss and good luck![/QUOTE]

Deady
12-30-2010, 04:28 PM
I picked up this awesome deck again, mostly because of the improvements concerning the original configuration. The single Savannah is awesome and I prefer the basic plains/forest over the basic island as well. The whole mana base seems rock solid. Don't forget that Noble Hierarch plays a big part here as well; it gives you whatever kind of mana we need (which also contains blue).

I'd rather play 3 RWM, 3 KotR instead of 2 RWM, 4 KotR, because of the reasons Mossivo already mentioned.

I'd love to play Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce (if it's only because of the art!), but I agree Spell Pierce is just better in general for this deck and just another great card. We shouldn't care too much about opposing creatures...if we should, then Spell Snare would have been a great choice instead.

mossivo1986
12-31-2010, 04:27 PM
I picked up this awesome deck again, mostly because of the improvements concerning the original configuration. The single Savannah is awesome and I prefer the basic plains/forest over the basic island as well. The whole mana base seems rock solid. Don't forget that Noble Hierarch plays a big part here as well; it gives you whatever kind of mana we need (which also contains blue).

I'd rather play 3 RWM, 3 KotR instead of 2 RWM, 4 KotR, because of the reasons Mossivo already mentioned.

I'd love to play Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce (if it's only because of the art!), but I agree Spell Pierce is just better in general for this deck and just another great card. We shouldn't care too much about opposing creatures...if we should, then Spell Snare would have been a great choice instead.

Glad to see your back!

Mark Sun
12-31-2010, 05:06 PM
I'm thinking about sleeving up the deck again, officially said goodbye to Survival and I really don't feel like playing the other decks that I have access to (cough Landstill).

I feel like right now with an open format and tons of Perish effects running around that I would at least try the old build with 1 Basic Island + 2 Vedilion Clique for now to "get the feel" for the deck again. I haven't touched it since the grinders at the GP and I still like the disruption that VC offers for the deck. For me the only real change is going to be 4 Preordain over 4 Ponder, I understand that it's an odd decision, but I started playing Standard recently and I gained a new appreciation for that card. In the time it takes me to relearn this deck, I could get a good feeling for both.

Hitman82
01-01-2011, 01:07 AM
I feel like right now with an open format and tons of Perish effects running around that I would at least try the old build with 1 Basic Island + 2 Vedilion Clique for now to "get the feel" for the deck again. I haven't touched it since the grinders at the GP and I still like the disruption that VC offers for the deck. For me the only real change is going to be 4 Preordain over 4 Ponder, I understand that it's an odd decision, but I started playing Standard recently and I gained a new appreciation for that card. In the time it takes me to relearn this deck, I could get a good feeling for both.

Unless you plan an playing against a lot of Zoo, Vendilion Clique is better than the third Knight and third War Monk. You often won't have to race or waste time blocking but just fly over the top with exalted triggers.

Preordain is not as good in this deck. Ponder is better than Preordain if you play a lot of shuffle effects. This way you can shuffle all the chaff away if you needed one of the top 3 or it strictly digs deeper than Preordain. With 6-7 shuffle effects, not including Knight of the Reliquary, Ponder is better than Preordain. Preordain is better at filtering on its own than Ponder is but that's not a concern you should have with this deck. Ponder is also better when you need to complete a combo since it obviously digs deeper to do that. If you don't want to play mini-synergies like Ponder-fetchland, than Preordain will be less frustrating. If you build your deck right, Ponder is better.

Deady
01-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Unless you plan an playing against a lot of Zoo, Vendilion Clique is better than the third Knight and third War Monk. You often won't have to race or waste time blocking but just fly over the top with exalted triggers.

I don't agree. KotR is one big **** in legacy and he fits perfectly in the gameplan of UGW Bant; especially next to your Wastelands and fetches. Last but not least, he's also way easier to cast compared to Vendillion Clique. Clique needs UU, which is problematic when you play a deck that mostly relies on green and white mana, together with 4x Wasteland. THAT'S the biggest problem with Clique in UGW Bant. The card might have its uses against combo, but then it's still not a need.

mossivo1986
01-01-2011, 03:05 PM
While I agree that Vendillion is tremendous; theres no way i'd ever go back to a 2-2-2 split again.I might do something like 2 rhox3 knight 2 clique cut a ponder, but I would have to know what my metagame is without a doubt. knight at 2 feels incorrect for any gameplan based on the fact that you almost always want to be establishing him in the mid game; and there are so many plays where knight just trumps over the other card you could play.

Hitman82
01-01-2011, 06:31 PM
I don't agree. KotR is one big **** in legacy and he fits perfectly in the gameplan of UGW Bant; especially next to your Wastelands and fetches. Last but not least, he's also way easier to cast compared to Vendillion Clique. Clique needs UU, which is problematic when you play a deck that mostly relies on green and white mana, together with 4x Wasteland. THAT'S the biggest problem with Clique in UGW Bant. The card might have its uses against combo, but then it's still not a need.

That's all well and good but if the goal of a tempo deck is to keep ahead on the resource count while keeping your opponent's down, there's little better than keeping mana up to interact along with the possibility of dropping a threat on their turn. If you tap three mana on the main phase, you have fewer options because you've tapped more mana when you didn't need to. Knight is just another creature. It can be infinitely chump blocked and just as easily Swordsed as any other creature. The value in a creature is in its ability to connect and/or have a relevant ability that actually affects things. You guys wouldn't have such a hard time casting a spell with UU in it if you'd stop cutting blue mana sources. Vendilion Clique is actually awesome because he's almost guaranteed to connect. You don't play him for storm, since he's pretty terrible against storm. You play him for evasion and an always relevant ability. I don't know what's wrong with your games where you think you need several Knights when you have Tarmogoyf and exalted triggers but it's not actually needed like you guys think. If you're going to cut a card, cut Rhox War Monk, not Vendilion Clique. The same reason you play War Monk is the reason you don't play Clique, Zoo.

Cutting a Ponder is pretty bad since it helps provide the mix of interactive and aggressive cards you need to win. If Zoo doesn't see a whole lot of play coming up, I'd change two of the War Monks to Cliques and play a silver bullet for the worst matchup that's seeing common play. Rhox War Monk is, by far, the worst creature in this deck.

mossivo1986
01-02-2011, 03:46 AM
That's all well and good but if the goal of a tempo deck is to keep ahead on the resource count while keeping your opponent's down, there's little better than keeping mana up to interact along with the possibility of dropping a threat on their turn. If you tap three mana on the main phase, you have fewer options because you've tapped more mana when you didn't need to. Knight is just another creature. It can be infinitely chump blocked and just as easily Swordsed as any other creature. The value in a creature is in its ability to connect and/or have a relevant ability that actually affects things. You guys wouldn't have such a hard time casting a spell with UU in it if you'd stop cutting blue mana sources.

I am getting so irritated with this. Drawing any hand with Basic Island Wasteland has been a death sentence. The same is basically true for basic plains; the difference being that basic plains is relivent in more situations. Against so many decks you want to be casting qasali on 2, and with 5 "colorless" sources thats alot more unlikely in my testing.


Vendilion Clique is actually awesome because he's almost guaranteed to connect. You don't play him for storm, since he's pretty terrible against storm. You play him for evasion and an always relevant ability. I don't know what's wrong with your games where you think you need several Knights when you have Tarmogoyf and exalted triggers but it's not actually needed like you guys think. If you're going to cut a card, cut Rhox War Monk, not Vendilion Clique. The same reason you play War Monk is the reason you don't play Clique, Zoo.


Fair enough.



Cutting a Ponder is pretty bad since it helps provide the mix of interactive and aggressive cards you need to win. If Zoo doesn't see a whole lot of play coming up, I'd change two of the War Monks to Cliques and play a silver bullet for the worst matchup that's seeing common play. Rhox War Monk is, by far, the worst creature in this deck.

It's sad to say that he's the worst creature in the deck "I do agree with this statement." It's just funny to see him turn to gold.

jazzykat
01-02-2011, 04:15 AM
I've been playing what used to be this deck and what I have hybridized to be closer to New Horizons. Regarding basics, I play a grand total of 1 and it is a forest. I also play Stifles+Wastes and 20 land but my curve is higher.

My point is that you need to get the mana to cast your spells. If you need to play into Wasteland (assuming they are actually running it) to have a chance to cast your spells then you do it or change what you are trying to cast if it makes you too uncomfortable.

It seems to me that Legacy deck designers are obscenely greedy with their mana-bases, which they usually need to be. I really like land and play an extra Horizon Canopy in place of a Ponder. I think that any (aggressive) deck that plays Xgw should consider Horizon Canopy because they turn dead midgame land drops into a card AND provide a non-island source of GW mana.

I am back and forth regarding a Clique vs. the 4th. KotR. KotR is a monster truck, but Clique helps in the combo and control matchups. He is hillarious to cast in response to an opponent playing Standstill.

Whoever said you don't play him vs. storm is incorrect. How valuable is it to keep mana up for BeB or Pierce or whatever and then drop a Clique on their endstep thereby screwing up their hand and getting a clock on the table? Also, in a best case scenario he can come down turn 2 off a Hierarch opening and swing for 4 on your turn!

Hitman82
01-02-2011, 12:42 PM
I am getting so irritated with this. Drawing any hand with Basic Island Wasteland has been a death sentence. The same is basically true for basic plains; the difference being that basic plains is relivent in more situations. Against so many decks you want to be casting qasali on 2, and with 5 "colorless" sources thats alot more unlikely in my testing.

By all means, continue to live in magical Christmasland where Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds never sees play. We're talking about one card here. You're acting like it's the end of your world if you open on Wasteland-Island and don't have eight blue cantrips, Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will.

SpikeyMikey
01-02-2011, 12:52 PM
They don't see much play. How often do you actually see Lands or Aggro Loam? How often do you see ANY deck running Crucible. You're far more likely to see Blood Moon, either occasionally out of D Stompy or more frequently out of mono-R Goblin's board.

Mark Sun
01-02-2011, 02:11 PM
By all means, continue to live in magical Christmasland where Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds never sees play. We're talking about one card here. You're acting like it's the end of your world if you open on Wasteland-Island and don't have eight blue cantrips, Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will.

I think you're right in talking about the importance of basics, but you could have used a better example. Honestly it's not about recurring Wasteland, it's about Wasteland itself. Without Hierarch in play, getting a dual wasted is a pretty devastating setback in terms of board development. As stated above, I don't ever walk into somewhere blind and go, "boy, I can't wait to play a Loam based deck today," although I would argue that we have the correct tools to fight that kind of stuff in the sideboard; the percentages of seeing those matchups is pretty low. I understand why the Basic Island may seem unfavorable in Joel's current model with 3 KOTR/3 RWM; the original build had a 2/2/2 split of the 3cc guys and it was necessary to have access to an additional U to cast the Clique. Through mana denial, that Basic Island was fairly important.

Anyhow, as stated I was thinking about picking the deck up again, but to reiterate whay I posted on the Bad Guys forums, there are some of the factors that make me hesitant in playing UGw Tempo at the moment. From reading the thread, I gather that tribal isn't the greatest matchup for this deck (Merfolk and Goblins, mainly), followed closely by Zoo (a 50-50 split). I think these decks will rise in popularity for this new year. Badlands are now $120+/set again after sitting at 80/set through Survival's popularity and there is really only one deck that I can think of that supports an playset. Everyone already knows the UB version of Merfolk. If we are fighting through Warren Weirding, Gempalm Incinerators, and Goblin Ringleader on one end of the tribal spectrum, and Submerge and Lord of Atlantis on the other with a common denominator of Perish/Nature's Ruin (or Hibernation for the Mono-U builds), I don't like our odds. Compound that with yet another DtB matchup that is a coin flip or worse, and I don't believe that this deck is positioned well at all right now.

EDIT: Obviously, running certain non-Green creatures and Equipment is a great way to combat this, but that is not the overall game plan of the deck (the Equipment part, not the creature part). I'm leaning towards Excalibur at the moment to offset these issues generated by the nature of the deck.

mossivo1986
01-02-2011, 02:39 PM
the additional sub par creatures arn't going to shore up tribal matchups.

Hitman82
01-02-2011, 03:45 PM
That's true.

mossivo1986
01-03-2011, 12:39 AM
Played in the local tonight.

R1. Joe Goblins Mono red
G1. I stp a lackey on the draw, he plays a land and passes. I play noble ponder pass. I end up beating him down and keeping his mana tied up while smashing in with noble (exalted 3) followed by a monk which makes very short order of things.

Side
3 Path 3 blast
4 daze 2 force.

G2. He gives me time to develope a hand and board position. Casts a t3 warchief. I apply pressure via 2x 4/5 goyf. Eventually he lands a ringleader into the nuts, but it still isn't enough. Eventually he runs out of card draw and tutors to stabilize and dies to double goyf.

R2. Kevin with 8 Manland Fae.
G1. Qasali and goyf smash until he sowers the goyf. When he does this I cast two more and he conceits in short order.

Side
3 path
3 daze

G2. He has a grip for the longest time, but my qasali's are ravaging him. I'm assuming he's got a gilded drake in hand. He also has vial in play which he doesn't want to lose out I guess. He looses several turns later to big beats once I've established a mana base.

R3. Tate with UB Dreadstill
G1. He mulls to 5.

Side
2 grip
3 path. (I don't know if I should have even sided in path.)
3 Rhox 2 daze


G2. He misez removal spells to my qasali's, then drops counterbalance with force backup, then drops dreadnaught in 3 turns.

+2 needle
-2 daze

G3. I mull to 5 and it isn't even close because it's too painful to mull to 5 against dreadstill.

R4. Draw in. End up 5th place outside of prizes, but whatever. Just a small tournament and I wanted to go home anyways after playing against dreadstill and having a poor game 2 and 3. . .. How aggrivating!! rhox was boss tonight, although im not so sure that vendillion wouldn't have been better.

Hitman82
01-03-2011, 05:02 PM
Siding in Path is certainly wrong against a Counterbalance deck. I don't like the way you sided this match. I would have kept Daze and War Monk but cut a Ponder and a Swords for two Grip and that's it. I wouldn't have brought in Needle for, I assume, Top. I would have kept in the War Monks just to keep threat density up and Daze because if he's playing Daze and Wasteland but you are too, you'll win these interactions because you play Noble Hierarch. Keeping mana superiority is usually how you win this matchup because it translates into card advantage when he's two-for oneing himself with Dreadnought and you only have to Spell Pierce, Swords, Grip or Qasali it to get rid of it. Leave him with Top since using it takes up precious mana and you're trying to bottleneck him there. Just take out the Counterbalance with Grip and call it a day. You have Grip and Swords for Dreadnought if he does get it off. In UB, he couldn't have had many worthwhile threats. Without knowing the list, I can't know for sure. Was he playing Tombstalker, Dark Confidant or Bitterblossom? You don't want to side in Path because he's a Counterbalance deck and one/two mana spells aren't that great against Counterbalance. Grip is good though and that's probably all you needed since you also have Qasali for Dreadnought if he sneaks through. If he's playing Confidant, keep the 4th Swords and cut a Noble Hierarch. Noble Hierarch, when you're staring down a Dreadnought is a terrible draw, especially if he has a Counterbalance out. If he just has the Dreadnought and no Counterbalance, Swords gets through to clear the Dreadnought problem whereas Hierach just looks stupid. You need enough removal for both Dreadnought and Confidant if he's playing it.

This is why I'm always harping about over-sideboarding. Unless the cards you're bringing in are actually better than the cards you're taking out in the context of the match you're playing, don't bother. I know it seems obvious but I can't tell you how many times I've seen players bring in cards because they might have an application no matter how unlikely or poorly thought out that might be. Against Dreadstill, you want to punish their card disadvantage win condition by taking out their only real ways of making up the lost card advantage, Counterbalance and potentially Dark Confidant if they're playing it. That way, they'll drown themselves when you get rid of the Dreadnought. If they're playing Tombstalker, you still don't want removal over Rhox War Monk because with War Monk out, you can just ignore the Tombstalker since you most likely have a better clock on the table and you're gaining life, especially if you have exalted triggers too. Just my two cents.

mossivo1986
01-03-2011, 05:33 PM
Siding in Path is certainly wrong against a Counterbalance deck. I don't like the way you sided this match. I would have kept Daze and War Monk but cut a Ponder and a Swords for two Grip and that's it. I wouldn't have brought in Needle for, I assume, Top. I would have kept in the War Monks just to keep threat density up and Daze because if he's playing Daze and Wasteland but you are too, you'll win these interactions because you play Noble Hierarch. Keeping mana superiority is usually how you win this matchup because it translates into card advantage when he's two-for oneing himself with Dreadnought and you only have to Spell Pierce, Swords, Grip or Qasali it to get rid of it. Leave him with Top since using it takes up precious mana and you're trying to bottleneck him there. Just take out the Counterbalance with Grip and call it a day. You have Grip and Swords for Dreadnought if he does get it off. In UB, he couldn't have had many worthwhile threats. Without knowing the list, I can't know for sure. Was he playing Tombstalker, Dark Confidant or Bitterblossom? You don't want to side in Path because he's a Counterbalance deck and one/two mana spells aren't that great against Counterbalance. Grip is good though and that's probably all you needed since you also have Qasali for Dreadnought if he sneaks through. If he's playing Confidant, keep the 4th Swords and cut a Noble Hierarch. Noble Hierarch, when you're staring down a Dreadnought is a terrible draw, especially if he has a Counterbalance out. If he just has the Dreadnought and no Counterbalance, Swords gets through to clear the Dreadnought problem whereas Hierach just looks stupid. You need enough removal for both Dreadnought and Confidant if he's playing it.

This is why I'm always harping about over-sideboarding. Unless the cards you're bringing in are actually better than the cards you're taking out in the context of the match you're playing, don't bother. I know it seems obvious but I can't tell you how many times I've seen players bring in cards because they might have an application no matter how unlikely or poorly thought out that might be. Against Dreadstill, you want to punish their card disadvantage win condition by taking out their only real ways of making up the lost card advantage, Counterbalance and potentially Dark Confidant if they're playing it. That way, they'll drown themselves when you get rid of the Dreadnought. If they're playing Tombstalker, you still don't want removal over Rhox War Monk because with War Monk out, you can just ignore the Tombstalker since you most likely have a better clock on the table and you're gaining life, especially if you have exalted triggers too. Just my two cents.

Thanx; I needed that. Needle was a test, I thought for some reason we brought in 2 path 2 needle normally. This all makes sense and i'll remember to book it.

Also his list
lots of basic islands
mishra's x4
0 wasteland?
lots of fetches with multiple sea.
Lim duals vault, bob, perish, ghastly deminse were the cards I played against.

Koby
01-03-2011, 05:41 PM
There seem to be many variants of Bant popping up, so I'm not sure which version I built falls under.

I piloted a version listed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16881-[Deck]-Excalibur&p=511837&viewfull=1#post511837). Please let me know what y'all think.

While the tournament performance is not significant due to the small amount of people, the sideboarding strategy is what I was testing. Any thoughts about sideboarding with the archetype in general?

mossivo1986
01-04-2011, 08:57 AM
Obviously your lists looks alot like ours, after all the basic line-up "bant" is going to look like each other anyways.

Obviously the largest differences are that you've cut some of your early game for a bit more late game. You also lack wasteland, which in your report you discuss that you do want to play it, but you also want consistency in your base. I would recommend testing our model out and seeing what you think.

The side boarding with UGw Tempo specifically is really fun.

mossivo1986
01-10-2011, 03:35 AM
So; i've been doing some thinking. Why am I playing combo hate IE cannonist in the board? Sure sometimes your going to play against combo, and yes it can be more then favorable with 3 cannonist plus; but in all honesty, why arn't we just scrapping the matchup? I mean how many times do you actually end up playing against combo? one out of every 12 or so matches? How bad is the matchup honestly? Is it really worth dedicating sideboard answers to play against something you never get paired against?

My answer for now is no.

So this is what i'm looking at.

// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

With the additional slots we cover the extra grips we almost always want to fit in, a fourth pierce to fight a variety of different matchups, and it just feels better. I almost feel like cutting a rhox for a vendillion, but every time I do I end up changing my mind because I constantly win with rhoxy.

Koby
01-10-2011, 06:02 PM
I would sooner cut 1 Ponder for 1 Clique than the 3rd RWM.

Cliques are awesome when you're not facing Vial/Zoo, much more than the 4th Ponder.

A Series of Questions:
How does this deck deal with Perish from an assortment of decks (B/x anything, Affinity, etc)?
What consideration would Spell Snare have over Spell pierce in the maindeck?
Would Spell Pierce be better served from the SB in the former case?
Without AEther Vial, how do you reconcile against aggressive Wasteland from your opponent? (say, Merfolk draws the nuts = Waste, Vial, Waste)
How does this deck recover from Turn 1 Goblin Lackey on the draw?

Hanni
01-10-2011, 06:16 PM
Cliques are awesome when you're not facing Vial

Casting Clique in response to the opponent tapping Vial is pretty sweet sometimes. Flying + Exalted is pretty nice too.

Koby
01-10-2011, 06:35 PM
The point, as mentioned in previous points as well, is the Vendilion Clique is better off as RWM in those matchups. If it was a Split card (RWM/Clique) I would run 4 of no questions asked. However, we have to make a choice (or in my case, play 3 RWM and 2 Cliques at the expense of Ponders).

In a field that is predicted to be roughly 40% aggro (Zoo, Merfolk, etc) and only about 20% dedicated control (Landstill, CBtop, etc) the choice to put in Clique in place of RWM appears to be incorrect.

Sometimes, I wish I could play an 80 card Bant deck because I want Vial, SFM/Equips, tons of counters, BS/Ponder, and StP. UGHHHH too many good cards!

mossivo1986
01-10-2011, 06:39 PM
The original answer I gave to this was incorrect. Perish is matchup dependant. Against goblins in my testing on the draw the best shot you have against it is daze, spell pierce was habitually too slow. If you attack them correctly they only have 3, and the likelyhood that they have it and your caught cold tends to be low. If you do get caught 50% of the time you should be dead anyways. The other 50% you get caught cold and it happens. Its apart of variance, deal with it. Cut them off of badlands if you can, play well, you should be fine.

In merfolk perish is the same idea, keep them off of it, you sideboard out less countermagic because the matchup is slower. You generally have more mana available, so choose wisely.

mossivo1986
01-21-2011, 07:45 AM
Quick tourney report:

Took the following


// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

R1. Goblins Sam
G1 on the draw. I put him on Goblins because the sleeves look familiar to me and I note that he's new to Legacy. turns out i'm right, but not the model I thought it was. He's mono red on the play. He misses his vial/lackey start. I ponder into goyf math. Better lucky then good as Chris would say!

side
3 blast
3 path

4 daze 2 force
G2. He resolves a blood moon and i'm cold to it with no basics. Oops, ya got me bro!

G3. Open a hand with double noble qasali. Apply some pressure to put him at 8 with fetches etc. Drop a knight and pass (knights a 2/2) I block his alpha with knight and blast his instigator, take a billion. Crack back and drop him to 8. I then tilt him to alpha me with the ability to crack back for lethal in the back of my mind. He alphas, I chump with 2 nobles and block his chieften with knight. wasteland my trop, response crack it for wasteland. On my turn drop another wasteland, and crack in for billions.

R2. Kenta GW Aggro He wins the roll. This deck is the bane of all GW decks for me.
G1. He drops an early vial. Jitte on 2, avenger eot, equip and swing, and I catch him twitch for a second which indicates that hes got the flickerwhisp where my swords wants to go. I suck it up, and he eventually just overwhelms me. Not much ya can do.
side
3 needle 3 path
dont remember what I sided out. I think 4-2 again.
G2. He gets lucky with a double vial waste hand, misses a land drop and hits two while wasting me out. I needed a needle to cripple him. Oh well.

R3. Clements with Rock
G1. He plasters me with discard and threats. I just don't have the answers and I mulld to five on the draw.

side 3 path 1 snare

4 force

G2. Qasali fucking pridemage is a house. Beats the snot out of him while he plays weak threats, and tries to wastelock and destroy my hand.

G3. Apparently Qasali Pridemage also beats quad thoughtseize. Lotus cobra chumps late, but he can't dig a threat.

R4. ID with Piperzack playing New Horizons "teammate" he wins and ends up in first. <--- I've now paid you back, next time we do battle.

All in all, meh. Sucks losing to GW, but the deck is designed to kick the crap out of aggro control and aggro strategies. Nothing it can do against combo and control.

the new set should be interesting for this deck. It's got alot of game if another broken factor deck dominates for format, but spell pierce is terrible right now. I've been testing other decks like fetchland ddt for a while now and will probably be taking it to this weekly event as the meta is pretty cold to combo. Final record 2-1-1

Gui
01-21-2011, 07:59 AM
Hey mossivo,

I know I may sound stupid for poiting out a card without much of reason, but have you tryed using predict? You use 8 brainstorms, and it's pretty much a draw 2 and remove a bad card from top.

As a made-up excuse to point the card out, buying more cards faster could help the midrange aggro matchup. :P

mossivo1986
01-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Midrange aggro isn't the problem generally. GW aggro with mother of runes, flickerwisp eternal witness, and several other cards give this deck all it can handle.

Koby
01-21-2011, 11:07 AM
I will second that comment. Even UW Tempo can manhandle this deck to no end. MoM + 3/3 vigilant Avenger + equipment is game over. The only way I can get out of that is by baiting MoM with swords and/or Maze of Ith.

mossivo1986
01-21-2011, 11:37 AM
I will second that comment. Even UW Tempo can manhandle this deck to no end. MoM + 3/3 vigilant Avenger + equipment is game over. The only way I can get out of that is by baiting MoM with swords and/or Maze of Ith.

Don't bring UW tempo into this thread. If I really cared about ever facing this matchup i'd play ee again, and the matchup would be a blowout. As it stands the matchup is in their favor preboard because they run mother of runes. Post board a combination of path and needle, or ee and path would due just fine and bring the matchup well in my favor.

Koby
01-21-2011, 04:02 PM
Don't bring UW tempo into this thread. If I really cared about ever facing this matchup i'd play ee again, and the matchup would be a blowout. As it stands the matchup is in their favor preboard because they run mother of runes. Post board a combination of path and needle, or ee and path would due just fine and bring the matchup well in my favor.

No need to get your panties in a bunch amigo. No need to get all emotional about an objective evaluation.

The point is that Mother of Runes (WG Maverick, UW tempo, DnT, etc) can stop a lot of threats. Once you add Serra Avenger (same decks) and now they can race you and stop your attacks. These types of decks give removal-lite Bant a tough time.

mossivo1986
01-22-2011, 02:30 AM
No need to get your panties in a bunch amigo. No need to get all emotional about an objective evaluation.

The point is that Mother of Runes (WG Maverick, UW tempo, DnT, etc) can stop a lot of threats. Once you add Serra Avenger (same decks) and now they can race you and stop your attacks. These types of decks give removal-lite Bant a tough time.

Preboard your correct. The addition of Pithing needle and extra removal gives the matchup new birth, as it exposes their dudes for what they really are. Undercosted dudes with no real board presence.

mossivo1986
02-09-2011, 07:20 PM
Went to Indy this past weekend. Tournament report in the correct section on the source. Ended up 7-1-1 for the day, which ended up being 9th place. "snaps fingers."

Overall the new list was designed to have good matchups all over the place, and not be a dog to anything in particular except elf combo and tendrills combo (tendrills post board is pretty bad without cannonist.) The board was designed to handle goblins on the draw, and green and taxes in particular. The deck performed most of the time exactly how I wanted it to. I did scoop a couple of games do to mulligans, but the base is solid still. Added a zenith to increase density, and removed a ponder because drawing the 2 ponder brainstorm hand sucks monkey butt.

Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19930-Moss-s-Sc5k-Report-INDY)

mossivo1986
02-10-2011, 11:56 PM
Some additional information for the thread that I didn't really mention earlier.

New stuff available to us:

Leonin Relic-Warder. This guy is pretty sweet in a select few match ups. The double white in it's casting cost isn't really hard for this archetype obviously, but the body isn't really all that great for us. Against vial decks more specifically merfolk this is clearly the best match up, but as that match up isn't impossible to us by a long shot, this guy really isn't all that playable for us. It also doesn't trump like we want it to, doesn't have much board presence at all really, so it didn't make it in the end.

Green Sun's Zenith. Initially I did a lot of testing with 2 of this card in place of a rhox and a ponder. I also added the arbor in place of a forest for noble's 5,6. On the draw against anything with spot removal and wasteland it's a virtual blowout against you, also drawing arbor elf against virtually anything is just aweful as it normally is. When I finally tested against zoo, that was really the end to the "package" deal, so I cut 1 zenith and the arbor, and have been quite happy since. One zenith really solves the multi ponder problem, while still giving you a shuffle effect, and gives you slightly better creature redundancy then you normally would have. In 0% of circumstances its also a shuffle tutor when you don't want to lose to decking.

Phyrexian Revoker. I liked it at first. Its a creature needle, something i've really wanted for a long time. The problem starts with it's ability. Not hitting Maze of Ith, as well as Port is a problem. Paul says it also costs too much, while I think it's ass is too small. In short, it's not quite what we wanted all around. Finish that off with artifact creature "I had to dream that this would be blue or white."

There wasn't a lot else for us to look at, but if you guys have any thoughts let me know.

Also for any of you looking at 4 zenith.dec, consider that spell pierce is a real card in this format; as well as daze. Not to mention that in order to do that you have to cut creature density, which is not something you want to do. It slows down many match ups like goblins, where your already a dog, and it's not something you want to be a dog against for some major event. All in all, really not playable in more then really small circumstances.

mossivo1986
02-17-2011, 07:00 AM
Played at GYGO tonight.

List


// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk


// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

R1. Supreme blue: He wins the roll
G1: Slower start, but multi waste, pierce action keeps him low on land. goyf beats him down.

2 Grip
1 Pierce

3 stp

G2: Another slow start, but I clean it up in the mid game with goyf qasali action.
Green zenith deffinately helps in this matchup. wish I could tutor for some utility other then just qasali as a one of.

R2: Stuart Supreme Blue: He wins the roll
G1. I mull to 6, he gets an early goyf lead, and rides it.

Same as before

G2. Live the hierarch dream into goyf action. He can't recoup from the resource denial.
G3. I feel like he's playing sower. I don't know why I don't check these stock lists more often... I get him to 3, he lands a jace, bounces me with 1 card in hand 2x, drops a sower, I get a rhox and offer him the draw as I dont think he has enough in 3 rounds to beat me, he eot's a clique grabbing my pierce, bounces my guy, killing his jace, lands another one, and the tempo is too much. Kills me on turn 5. Awkward.... Rhox war monk needs to get sided out in this matchup I think. Not sure yet, need additional testing as im splitting way too many matches with this deck currently.

R3: Green and Taxes Im on the play.
G1: He opens a pretty solid hand, but it doesn't include mother, so he dies soon to my meat and tempo.

2 jitte
3 path
2 needle

G2: He gets the game to a stall, at one point i'm sitting with 3 lands 3 goyf and a noble, 4 cards in hand 1 of them is a path, but I cant do anything to his double mother double qasali action. Man Im missing EE :)

G3: we have no time, but I want to play it out. I want the win. He scoops to me if I show him this list as he really likes it and wants to play bant. I agree.

R4: Rock ID
Practice games
G1: he takes this one, I flood out on a mull to 6 3 lands with noble. Awkward...
G2: My goyfs are bigger
G3: basic forest noble, into trips wasteland with pierce open to protect my only white blue source "noble". End up taking it with trips goyf.

T8:
Buddah Sneaky show he wins the roll
G1 island go, me live the dream, him land, exile mana bear, show and tell, me daze, him daze, I drop qasali, he drops progenitus.

Incorrect siding plan
G2: A long drawn out game where noble hierarch and his fetching ends up killing him over the long hall. He has to intuition for a pile of firespoutx2, show and tell because he cant cast sneak and have a second red open. I give him the spout. I win in the following 2 turns.
G3: He draws 2 ancient tombs which take him the distance against my non existent wastes. he produces enough mana and has double show. he shows me the missing member of his team for the first two games, which happens to have lots of tendrils. I scoop em up.

that metagame was very inbred for this deck to be successful. I really wanted to play a clique instead of rhoxy 3, but didnt get a chance to pick one up. Completely forgot about it too!!

Oh wells.

Hitman82
02-17-2011, 09:24 AM
Awkward.... Rhox war monk needs to get sided out in this matchup I think. Not sure yet, need additional testing as im splitting way too many matches with this deck currently.

Thank you...I told you Rhox War Monk is crap. However, I also told you to play Vendilion Clique, which is excellent in this matchup. Just saying.

Why are you bringing Jitte in against Death and Taxes? If they have a Swords you just lose.

The Show and Tell deck should be really favorable. Did you side out countermagic???

The metagame didn't look very inbred. Two Supreme Blue decks, Death and Taxes, Rock and Show and Tell. I think you sided wrong against Death and Taxes and am wondering what you sided against Show and Tell.

mossivo1986
02-17-2011, 03:37 PM
Test the matchups out.

mossivo1986
03-23-2011, 04:05 AM
So its been a long time since I posted in this thread. Heres an update

// Lands
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [PT] Natural Order
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip


Right now Junk is the worst matchup you can run into. In order to fix this we now play No out of the board. I'm used to playing 4x, but 3x looks better on paper for now plus it gives us a bit more space to work with. It's also invaluable against green and taxes.

Meddling mage is normally in the board currently, 3x in place of the cannonist's and a kataki. This package along with the fourth pierce should be enough to stop show and tell decks, along with tendrills combo. I am missing needle though, and I really want it alot.

Thrun is for supreme blue along with the pierce. It also gets boarded with the pierce and mages against landstill.

jitte for goblins and merfolk and elf combo. Grip for random decks.

All in all its coming together.

Went to the jace tourrney finishing 3-2-1 losing to junk and taxes and the gate, drew (should have lost) to teammate Draener playing 1 billion removal spells countertopthopter.

All in all i'm taking a break from the deck for a while to pick up counter top thopter, but I think the deck will have good position in the metagame soon.

GGoober
03-23-2011, 10:36 AM
Moss, nice list. Grats on the continued effort. I still prefered your SCG 9th place list with 1 GSZ. In fact, back at SCG Dallas, watching AJ Satcher resolve GSZ was for most parts back-breaking.

The only real problem with GSZ is that people playing GSZ are too concerned with cute things i.e. like playing 2 Goyfs or 2 Pridemages and playing singleton Trygon, Terravores. IMO this is a good strategy only if the deck is mid-ranged, but yet you see those lists playing both Stifles and GSZ.

I think GSZ is a really strong inclusion in your list. From your SCG list, I could not find a slot to fit the 2nd, and the singleton was great. I'm a fan of 3 knights v.s. 4 due to clunkiness when playing the tempo version of Bant. GSZ does solve the clunkiness of not playing the 4th knight while still providing the ability to fetch one when needed.

Was the 4th Ponder still good? I see more value in a singleton GSZ over the 4th Ponder. With your list, your permission/threats are fairly dense so I can see you get by with 1 less ponder.

Perish is very very solid in this metagame. I played with it in the Legacy challenge before the legacy SCG opens, and it felt completely unfair against GW decks. I would say that playing against Perish would involve tweaking concepts on tempo against matchups running Perish i.e. you can match board development with theirs but you don't have to maintain superior position at all times by wasting counters. You need to save those counters against the Perish that wrecks the deck. Junk is indeed tough because they are going to always keep you at low board/card development, so you are inclined to overextend, not to mention them stripping counters out of your hand.

I agree with 3 over 4 NO. You are playing Bant, you have more digging than other GW variants, so the 4th NO is clunky and bad.

Draener
03-23-2011, 01:33 PM
So its been a long time since I posted in this thread. Heres an update

Went to the jace tourrney finishing 3-2-1 losing to junk and taxes and the gate, drew (should have lost) to teammate Draener playing 1 billion removal spells countertopthopter.


You owe me! I clearly deserved a win after perishing a noble. It wasn't really one billion removal counterthopter anymore... just one billion removal.dec.

mossivo1986
03-24-2011, 01:47 AM
So I heard you boarded out the thopters draener, you fiend.

Metal. GSZ is a fine card. I wouldn't doubt anyone for playing it in multiples. I feel like its situationally better then ponder, but ponder remains the better card most of the time. When the meta is pretty aggressive with vial decks that dont run mother and qasali I feel gsz is better for us. When the meta is packed with junk and mother of runes I think its just time to play no out of the board. As it is now, I think gsz was the right call for that tournament, but overall just overkill.

Koby
04-20-2011, 01:21 PM
Hump de bump!

New goodie in the new set:
Mental Misstep. Now we can counter StP/Bolt on our dudes. How will this fit into the deck?

I also wanted to add that I ran a UGw Tempo list in a 32 man Mox Sapphire tourney, and won. :d
I was using SFM to shore up the aggro matchup, as it was invaluable against Team America, then got lucky by not paired up against TES, and beat Dredge with some lucky draws.

I ran this list:

4 wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah (gonna try out Horizon Canopy in place)
8 Fetchlands

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Jitte
1 SoFI

and 1 other that I don't remember. SB had Needles, G/y hate, Cliques/Karakas, 2 KGrips (never used), and some extra Spell Pierce/Dispel. I ran pretty hot, but Stifle ended up getting cut many of the games.

The Treefolk Master
04-20-2011, 02:25 PM
It is interesting to see how many, many topics are necroed due to the spoiling of Mental Misstep (don't take me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the card).

Pale Moon FTW
04-20-2011, 06:14 PM
I think that Mental Misstep is mostly bad news for this deck since it runs so many 1cc spells, it especially screws with our mana by countering Noble Hierarch or that turn 1 Ponder I so often use to dig for a land. As for running it, I think I'll try a counter suite of 4 FoW, 2 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce and 3 Mental Misstep.

mossivo1986
04-25-2011, 05:36 AM
Hell I didn't even know people were following this anymore :P

Congrats Ruckus. Another friend of mine just got second in a 30 something tourney the other day.

Regarding Mental Misstep. I've done alot of testing, but I haven't gotten a chance to test with my team yet.

So far the response from my team is 1/2 its INSANE 1/2 its just something your going to have to play against for a while, and then people will get off the train.

I've tested the following packages

4 force
3 pierce
=============
2,3,4 mistep
2,3 daze (the flex slot coming from ponder and the clique in my list.

Ready to enjoy the hotness?
here goes :P


// Lands
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

Mental offers us alot of value. It counters some important cards against us. IE

STP
Lavamancer
Mother
Lightning Bolt
Wild Nacatl
High Tide (Allows us not to play Mage in the board.)
opposing pierces
lackey

These are all threats we really wanted to have answers to. Vial was not among the cards we cared about.

Now. Some of you know that I have been running NO for a while. We need this to address "and Taxes" decks as well as "the rock"

Most of the time when i'm boarding against aggro decks "goblins, zoo, mid range piles" i'm boarding in the no plan and 2 paths. merfolk is the only reason i'm running the third currently.

I don't know how prominent dredge is right now. Before the starcity fired back up dredge was seeing alot of play, and it's been reasonably consistent at doing well in the starcitys due to noone running graveyard hate.

mossivo1986
04-25-2011, 05:37 AM
Hell I didn't even know people were following this anymore :P

Congrats Ruckus. Another friend of mine just got second in a 30 something tourney the other day.

Regarding Mental Misstep. I've done alot of testing, but I haven't gotten a chance to test with my team yet.

So far the response from my team is 1/2 its INSANE 1/2 its just something your going to have to play against for a while, and then people will get off the train.

I've tested the following packages

4 force
3 pierce
=============
2,3,4 mistep
2,3 daze (the flex slot coming from ponder and the clique in my list.

Ready to enjoy the hotness?
here goes :P


// Lands
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

Mental offers us alot of value. It counters some important cards against us. IE

STP
Lavamancer
Mother
Lightning Bolt
Wild Nacatl
High Tide (Allows us not to play Mage in the board.)
opposing pierces
lackey

These are all threats we really wanted to have answers to. Vial was not among the cards we cared about.

Now. Some of you know that I have been running NO for a while. We need this to address "and Taxes" decks as well as "the rock"

Most of the time when i'm boarding against aggro decks "goblins, zoo, mid range piles" i'm boarding in the no plan and 2 paths. merfolk is the only reason i'm running the third currently.

I don't know how prominent dredge is right now. Before the starcity fired back up dredge was seeing alot of play, and it's been reasonably consistent at doing well in the starcitys due to noone running graveyard hate.

mossivo1986
04-28-2011, 05:27 AM
I've done alot of testing with Mental Misstep in the past week or so.

This list im running cuts a ponder a clique and a daze to run 3. I've also cut the island for savannah in this build. The counter-package feels alittle akward, i'm not going to lie. Although I can see with more testing this being fine.

3 pierce
3 daze
3 mm
4 force

It definitely helps the manabase develop better IE more basic lands earlier. Team America seems to be a worse matchup then it was before based on the lists ive been testing against. With that noted; im throwing relic back in over crypt. I want to beat the other aggro control archetypes more then I care about beating dredge.

The board currently looks like this
1 pierce
1 beast within "new permenant destroyer"
4 natural order
1 Progy
3 path
2 relic
1 bog
1 jitte

mossivo1986
05-05-2011, 06:44 AM
I feel like initially we should let the MM wave ride over legacy until people figure out thats it's not good in everything. MM happens to be excellent for this deck when every other deck doesnt run it, but I want to make sure something like zoo isnt going to run it or this deck will have to change or not exhist as a tier strategy anymore. Right now im running landstill but the last list I came up with looked like this

4 trop
2 tundra
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
4 windswept
1 misty
1 flooded

4 noble
4 qasali
4 goyf
4 knight

4 bs
3 ponder
1 sylvan library

4 stp

4 force
4 daze
3 mm

board
3 path
4 pierce
2 beast within
1 bog
1 karakas
2 jitte
2 warmonk

This was a very rough list, but i wanted to revamp the deck and try to figure out a different approach. im not sure if this is sufficient for a meta or not.

I do know the old list with no in the board felt quite comfortable. Maybe theres something with all this.

damionblackgear
05-05-2011, 03:20 PM
I didn't even know this was a thread. My deck would be considered Blasphamy here though as I have no intention of running MM over stifle or spell pierce in the main. I'd love some constructive criticism though. The deck is being run to with great results and I believe that it's a good way to go. As far as MM goes, I think it's more hype than hope.

My list Pre-NPH:

4 Noble Hierach
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Rhox War Monk

1 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

Board

1 Bojuka Bog
2 Divert
3 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Suspect Cards (by your eye or mine):

Rhox War Monk - I hate this card in the deck. It's done nothing for me and I believe that it should be something else. I've tried V. Clique and I believe that both are poor choices. I'm looking for alternatives but right now I don't think there is a stong one.

Stifle - I different type of tempo card than what is being pushed here but I find that it's more helpful against the current trend than Spell Pierce. Although many of the 'Pro's' believe that the card is worthless past turn 1 or 2 I've found that it to be useful still. Even decks like Stax and Merfolk have triggered abilities. And just because something is in the main-deck, doesn't mean that it has to be in for the next game(s).

Sword of Body and Mind (this is going to take a moment) - Probably an eyesore to you. I'm going to just say give it a shot before you jump to conclusions. I keep trying to explain it but it takes about 3 paragraphs each time I type it.

Divert - An optional slot I've found to be very useful against decks which have a lot of removal or hand disruption. It also acts as Spell Pierce 4 & 5 if need be. I encourage you to look at your meta before adding.

Sideboard Tarmogoyf - Looks funny I know but, there are some decks you just need to get there against and he'll bring the beats at the 2 slot better than any other creature. I didn't like it in the main, and I'd get rid of it if there was something better, but there isn't anything right now.

mossivo1986
05-06-2011, 02:24 PM
You have an interesting set up. I do agree with you on war monk. He can be a beast but he's also underwhelming as of late. Which is why you noticed I put him in the board.

I don't think it matters if I like stifle or not, it doesn't change what the deck is overall trying to do.

welcome to the thread

Koby
05-06-2011, 03:03 PM
@ mossivo
What purpose does Ponder serve in your list?

I ask simply because each time I've played the deck, I feel like Ponder would rather be a threat. Digging for answers is a luxury we can't afford with a tempo deck such as this. With the coming of MM, I feel as though we should be pushing the aggro element as hard as we can while letting the 12 free counters shore up some tempo so we can punch through.

I'm not entirely sure what the metagame will finally settle on with MM, but I suspect many more mid-range decks will pop up to avoid getting hurt by MM. For this reason, I'm anticipating needing the use of equipment/SFM to help make our d00ds be overbearingly powerful in combat.

My alternative proposal from your list:
-3 Ponder
-1 Qasali Pridemage

+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Jitte
+1 SoFI

This also raises amount of creatures. More often than not, an unanswered Jitte is victory onto itself against mid-range. Moreover, against decks that don't care to interact with combat (such as board-control and combo), we have sufficient counters to interact. I will be testing out 4 MM to make sure that I get to see it enough times during testing. I suspect that I may end up cutting one of either MM or Daze in the long run, and I'm probably leaning towards Daze so I don't lose the tempo (and enable turn 2 KotR =D )

mossivo1986
05-06-2011, 03:31 PM
What does stoneforge mystic do for this deck?
What does all this equipment do for this deck?

Ponder serves to dig for pieces that you need like searching for additional counters, removal, creatures or land.

damionblackgear
05-06-2011, 03:57 PM
I think what he's trying to suggest is a way to 'sure up' some of the matches your deck may have difficulty with (mainly Merfolk). Having access to 7 swords effects is nice and all but why not diversify your answers to them. When the format shifts they'll have more ways to fight your swords effects than before and most will stay in The Mystic package gives you access to Jitte (in pseudo multiples) to fight with, starting game 1. *Folk is one of the decks that is improved with MM.

On Ponder - I've found that it's more for the blue count (Force) that can be shifted than anything. Is there a reason it's not preordain? I used 1 preordain and was told to try ponder. I don't know which is better at this point so I would love some outside input.

Snief
05-06-2011, 04:07 PM
I played a Bant Tempo list with success for some weeks which plays SFM, too.

Creatures:

4 Goyf
4 Hierarch
4 KotR
2 Trygon Predator
2 SFM

Spells:

4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 BS
4 StoP
4 Daze
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI

Lands:
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
6 Fetch

The Equipments works as additional Removal/threat and SFM is able to find them. You also have a way better aggro matchup than a deck without Equipment (Goblins and even Merfolk preboard(after boarding it becomes a walk in the park)).

mossivo1986
05-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Tempo bant doesn't struggle against merfolk. It's literally 50-50 edged in our favor.

the problem I see with Stoneforge mystic is that your spending this mana, to get a guy thats not a threat. It searches for a threat, which then costs you 4 additional mana and a tap of your mystic to get said threat into play and hopefully active. If your opponent removes the first threat, you've now dedicated this much mana 4WW on a 1/2 and an equipment that isn't equipped. This isn't what bant is trying to do.

Bant wants to gain the maximum value/efficiency/ for each mana you spend. This is specificly why we don't run mystic or packages. We have to understand that Tempo Bant thrives in enviornments where there is a strong broken factor deck IE Reanimator, survival, etc. Rhox is the efficient way out of the aggro matchups. In fact he's just a boss in those matchups.

In other matchups where you need a bigger out, IE pt Junk where they diminish your hand quality, lands, remove your creatures etc. the idea should be to cast a natural order. This is something they cant deal with.

Koby
05-06-2011, 05:21 PM
You have an interesting set up. I do agree with you on war monk. He can be a beast but he's also underwhelming as of late. Which is why you noticed I put him in the board.




Bant wants to gain the maximum value/efficiency/ for each mana you spend. This is specificly why we don't run mystic or packages. We have to understand that Tempo Bant thrives in enviornments where there is a strong broken factor deck IE Reanimator, survival, etc. Rhox is the efficient way out of the aggro matchups. In fact he's just a boss in those matchups.


So which is it? RWM - good in the deck, or bad?

I'm of the opinion that Equipment is better in those matchups than RWM. I believe the key to those matchups is nearly endless removal that Jitte and SoFI provide; not a 4 point life gain. SoFI and Jitte make every creature a threat; whereas without them your Noble Hierarchs can't even punch through a Grey Ogre.

mossivo1986
05-07-2011, 02:48 PM
So which is it? RWM - good in the deck, or bad?

I'm of the opinion that Equipment is better in those matchups than RWM. I believe the key to those matchups is nearly endless removal that Jitte and SoFI provide; not a 4 point life gain. SoFI and Jitte make every creature a threat; whereas without them your Noble Hierarchs can't even punch through a Grey Ogre.

Well, lets have a look at what I said. Rhox War Monk is underwhelming as of late. Why would I say that? Probobly because theres a lack of tribal decks at the top tables of tournaments. While bant wants to gain the most in efficiency, cards are still going to be bad based on different metagames; IE there is no perfect list.

If your over the opinion that non-creature spells are good against merfolk, or that your going to stick an equipment consistently/ have enough mana to against goblins then you are fighting a losing battle. The reason our matchup is so cutt and dry against merfolk is because we have lots of removal post board, which allows us to gain efficiency by trading one drop removal spells for 2-3 mana loards, while also playing our fatties.

You are right that sofi and jitte make every creature you run a threat

but at what cost?

Stoneforge requires 6 mana to use and equip, and to top it off alone it's a squire. How terrible is that? Without the mystic your looking at 5 or 4 respectively to cast and equip. Isn't that just worse? Casting a non-creature spell against merfolk seems like an absolute wrong choice to make.

For the investment that your paying you have to look at what your deck actually is trying to to, versus what is happenning. For the same mana i could cast thrun, spirit monger, or our good old buddy silvos.

So play efficient creatures that kill your opponent. Thats how you win games.

mossivo1986
05-07-2011, 02:48 PM
So which is it? RWM - good in the deck, or bad?

I'm of the opinion that Equipment is better in those matchups than RWM. I believe the key to those matchups is nearly endless removal that Jitte and SoFI provide; not a 4 point life gain. SoFI and Jitte make every creature a threat; whereas without them your Noble Hierarchs can't even punch through a Grey Ogre.

Well, lets have a look at what I said. Rhox War Monk is underwhelming as of late. Why would I say that? Probobly because theres a lack of tribal decks at the top tables of tournaments. While bant wants to gain the most in efficiency, cards are still going to be bad based on different metagames; IE there is no perfect list.

If your over the opinion that non-creature spells are good against merfolk, or that your going to stick an equipment consistently/ have enough mana to against goblins then you are fighting a losing battle. The reason our matchup is so cutt and dry against merfolk is because we have lots of removal post board, which allows us to gain efficiency by trading one drop removal spells for 2-3 mana loards, while also playing our fatties.

You are right that sofi and jitte make every creature you run a threat

but at what cost?

Stoneforge requires 6 mana to use and equip, and to top it off alone it's a squire. How terrible is that? Without the mystic your looking at 5 or 4 respectively to cast and equip. Isn't that just worse? Casting a non-creature spell against merfolk seems like an absolute wrong choice to make.

For the investment that your paying you have to look at what your deck actually is trying to to, versus what is happenning. For the same mana i could cast thrun, spirit monger, or our good old buddy silvos.

So play efficient creatures that kill your opponent. Thats how you win games.

Snief
05-08-2011, 06:37 AM
Sorry, I am absolutely not your opinion. With the list mentioned above I haven`t dropped a single game against Goblins and no single match against Merfolk. Sure, the mana investment is huge, but the reward is even bigger. You seem to think that my (and maybe others) intention is to play SFM asap, then the Equipment and the equip cost. While it is true that I try to land SFM early, it is really difficult to find the perfect moment to cheat the Sword into play and swing back. Normally a game vs Merfolk goes like this:
T1: Land, Hierarch.
T2: SFM -> Equipment, 1 mana open for counter/removal.
T3: Critical turn, depending on board situation. Another creature/removal/counterbackup. Eot: Eqipment into play if possible.
T4: Equip, win.

Sure, that is the optimum, but it happens. As i already mentioned, after boarding with extra removal like PtE it becomes a lot easier.

mossivo1986
05-08-2011, 08:21 AM
I don't care for stoneforge mystic. I don't care for stifle. If I wanted to play those cards I would play Uw Tempo, or some sort of UWb fish. This is a deck that utilizes efficiency and card quality. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some card quality for better efficiency, and this is and has been exactly what i'm explaining to you.

I've taken this deck to several high finishes in 30+ man tournaments including an appearance at Star City Indy.

As for Mental Misstep. I've tested it for a solid month now. I know the number I would work with is between 2 and 3 if I played it. Do I think it will happen? No. I think i'll switch decks to UWgb landstill until the format identifies that MM isn't going to be in every deck. Then i'll switch to bant when I have more information about what decks are actually doing. I won't take bant to a blind metagame.

Also. Stop being Cute. Cutt the damn Trigon predator, and play a real threat. Qasali is part of why this deck is so successful. Trygon is terrible.

Koby
05-08-2011, 12:49 PM
And I've taken this deck to several high placing finishings as well, but with the SFM package. In fact, it was critical against Team America builds that run Dark Confidant. When every potential creature you play can activate removal (jitte), and your opponent has many removal spells; equipment really shines. Plus, Sword of Fire/Ice gives you card advantage.

But I suppose we can't convince you of the SFM package's usefulness in UG/w.

I for one, think that's one of the benefits of running the white splash. Otherwise, this deck is no different from UG/r or UG/b builds.

Mark Sun
05-08-2011, 01:13 PM
I am one to believe that if you run Daze, then you shouldn't be running the SFM package, and vice versa. The mana intensive part of the SFM package requires you to be ahead on resources.

I think you guys are both arguing the advantages of your respective archetypes, which are not the same. I have been playing Stoneforge Bant (obviously not post-NPH) with good success, but nowhere close to the same playstyle that I played UGw Tempo at.

Equipment does have a place in Bant, it just depends on what your game plan is. Equipment is great at "increasing" threat density, and breaking creature stalemates. Just food for thought.

mossivo1986
05-08-2011, 03:04 PM
In fact, it was critical against Team America builds that run Dark Confidant. When every potential creature you play can activate removal (jitte), and your opponent has many removal spells; equipment really shines. Plus, Sword of Fire/Ice gives you card advantage.

In regards to Team America have you tested my build? It's posted good results for me. With NPH the matchups gotten alot tougher, but I need to test that more thoroughly.



I for one, think that's one of the benefits of running the white splash. Otherwise, this deck is no different from UG/r or UG/b builds.

Red the primer. I discuss alot of my opinions as well as the creators there.

Morbid, I don't know about daze and stoneforge. I can see what your saying though. BTW don't move to Texas, or there will be a Chainsaw Massacre when I come to town buahaha.

Mark Sun
05-08-2011, 03:24 PM
Morbid, I don't know about daze and stoneforge. I can see what your saying though. BTW don't move to Texas, or there will be a Chainsaw Massacre when I come to town buahaha.

If I keep getting fucked over in the job search I'm gonna be right here, beautiful. In fact, I'm still in Ohio until someone gives me work.

That was my point btw, SFM and Daze don't really belong in the same deck, thus Stoneforge Bant vs. UGw Tempo, they have different deck philosophies.

luckme10
11-13-2011, 05:51 AM
Moss I'm not sure if you're still working on this deck, but in trying to find a home for Delver of Secrets in a Bant build, I've been thinking about this deck a lot. I almost feel like that card was the ideal fit for Delver. You naturally run ponder and Library, creature out at 3cc, and the exalted emphasis does really well for turn 1 fliers. The deck is also naturally spell heavy and unlike other bant builds, even for the time, took advantage of the wasteland manabase. Are you still working on this build, and if so, have you given Delver any thoughts?

mossivo1986
02-10-2012, 02:16 PM
I haven't played magic in quite a while actually. I needed a break, to enjoy other things in my life. As such I haven't tested delver at all. At first glance it looks good, even though I have said the card was bad before I believe. I was clearly wrong about that. CLEARLY :P

mossivo1986
05-20-2012, 04:43 AM
This is something ive been working on for a bit. I havent done any research on other bant decks. This is purely thoughts, list go. Ill test it out soon.

Ugw tempo
2x flooded strand
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
3x tundra
1x forest
1x island
1x karakas
4 wasteland

4x swords to plowshares
4x daze
4x force of will
3x spell pierce
4 brainstorm
3x ponder

4x delver of secrets
4x noble hierarch
4x quasali, pridemage
3x snapcaster mage
3x knight of the reliquary
1x vendillion clique

Sb:
3x path to exile
3x pithing needle
1x spell pierce
2x thalia
4x relic of progenitus
2x empty slots

copywriter
07-04-2012, 05:57 AM
This is something ive been working on for a bit. I havent done any research on other bant decks. This is purely thoughts, list go. Ill test it out soon.

Ugw tempo
2x flooded strand
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
3x tundra
1x forest
1x island
1x karakas
4 wasteland

4x swords to plowshares
4x daze
4x force of will
3x spell pierce
4 brainstorm
3x ponder

4x delver of secrets
4x noble hierarch
4x quasali, pridemage
3x snapcaster mage
3x knight of the reliquary
1x vendillion clique

Sb:
3x path to exile
3x pithing needle
1x spell pierce
2x thalia
4x relic of progenitus
2x empty slots


Did you ever test this build? I'm curious to know how Tempo Bant really plays out.

Thanks.

mossivo1986
07-05-2012, 05:32 AM
Yes. Delver is a great card but ultimately its not what you want to be doing if your trying to play the normal bant game.

The theory is good, but your running in too many directions. Im currently not testing the deck.

copywriter
07-05-2012, 07:25 AM
Yes. Delver is a great card but ultimately its not what you want to be doing if your trying to play the normal bant game.

The theory is good, but your running in too many directions. Im currently not testing the deck.


Thanks! I've been thinking the same. Might I ask what you are currently testing?

mossivo1986
10-20-2012, 10:50 AM
So heres an update on the model I posted last time. I did some testing and im fairly happy with the following.

/
/ Lands
2 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [B] Savannah
3 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [JGC] Natural Order
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
SB: 3 [JU] Envelop
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast


1x hydro
1x relic
1x snapcaster I am testing at the moment. I think theyll be fine

the board was

4x no
3x rip
4x envelop

just trying to open up space.

let me know what you think.

mossivo1986
10-20-2012, 01:10 PM
subbed out the blast for a rhox.

Tammit67
10-20-2012, 01:14 PM
To you find it hard to tempo your opponents with swords/3 drops? Are the delvers worth cutting down on KotR? What do you gain over just playing a Bant midrange strategy? How has goyf been?

mossivo1986
10-20-2012, 02:16 PM
Do you find it hard to tempo your opponents with swords/3 drops?


No. The lifegain off of swords doesn't directly negate your tempo.
As far as the three drops are concerned I don't understand. Did zoo both big and small versions run 3 drops?


Are the delvers worth cutting down on KotR?

Yes.

What do you gain over just playing a Bant midrange strategy?

The ability to win games against the current metagame of combo decks.

How has goyf been?

Hasn't really come up much. Scavenging ooze has been relivent when i've drawn him. I generally am tutoring for qasali or dryad arbor.