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Nightmare
05-18-2010, 11:11 AM
Alright, people were asking for a primer of sorts on this deck, so here you go.

Let’s start with a decklist, and go from there. We’ll get into some specific card choices, some strategy, and some of the deck’s subtleties later.

Aeon Bridge – by Nightmare

4 Show and Tell
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 See Beyond
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Wipe Away

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Chrome Mox
4 Mosswort Bridge
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Forest


SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Progenitus
2 Duress


This is the list as I would play it on 5/18/10. I played a slightly different list on the 15th, and wrote a report which you can find here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17601-Wait-what-does-that-thing-do-again-A-tournament-report-from-Nightmare&p=456820). Some of the preliminary discussion in that report details the early progression of the deck, where we started, etc. I won’t go into that too much here, because its irrelevant. Moving on.

Card Choices – lets run down the list:
Show and Tell – The real reason to play the deck. This allows you to put a huge monster into play for three mana, with the slight drawback of allowing your opponent to do the same. Boo Hoo. Chances are, if you can survive your opponent attacking with his monster (which you can, since it’s like turn 3-5, and Emrakul blocks pretty hard), then his monster will get eaten on your next turn, thanks to Annihilator 6. Seems like a fair deal.
Cards you don’t want to see Shown and Told – Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, Blazing Archon, Karakas, Ensnaring Bridge

Worldly Tutor – Pretty good at setting up Mosswort Bridge, or finding the Dreadnought to turn it on.

Lim-Dul’s Vault – The scariest tutor in Legacy. This card does everything. It finds every card you want to be in your hand, and paired with either Brainstorm or See Beyond, it acts as multiple Vampiric Tutors. You can look at your entire deck for 9 life at most points in the game. If LDV can’t find you the win, nothing can. It also sets up sick Briges, giving you the Nought + the creature to go under the bridge at the same time. If you EOT the LDV (gg), put the Nought on top, and the Emrakul in the rest of the 5. You draw the Nought, and recycle the rest of the LDV. Or, you can main phase it, and put the Nought last to protect from discard and activate it next turn.

Next few cards are standard fare for blue decks.

See Beyond – I wasn’t sure about this card until I played with it. I will not say that it is a good card in a generic Legacy deck. I will not say that decks like Thresh or even Reanimator would want to play it. However, this deck loves it. For whatever reason, should you draw a pair of Emrakuls, or Noughts, or a Chrome Mox you don’t need, or even get a little mana flooded, this turns the chaff into pure gas. It’s a turbo-charged Lat-Nam’s Legacy, except it acts more like Brainstorm+Fetch 5-7. It is a little worse at digging for land than Ponder, but it’s much better at making your hand be what you want it to be. I am now a believer in this card – in this deck, and decks running Oath of Druids anyway.

Stifle – For Nought, mostly, but also extremely useful in protecting your manabase (specifically Bridge) from Wastelands, and protecting Emrakul for the turn you need to Annihilator 6 their problems away. What, you have Jace online? Stifle. Oh, Karakas? Stifle. Nice Seal of Removal. Stifle. Sick Aether Spellbomb. Stifle.

Thoughtseize – Protection.

Wipe Away – Catch all spot removal, for all intents and purposes. It is unlikely that the things you’re wiping away (Blazing Archon, Ensnaring Bridge) will be coming back after Emrakul attacks once.

Phyrexian Dreadnought – This card is here for two reasons. First, and BY FAR foremost, is to activate the Mosswort Bridge. It is extremely rare that you will be casting this and stifling the trigger. That opens you up to some pretty silly disasters when you get owned by Shatter. That’s simply not your plan – unless you’re looking at a combo deck, or Reanimator game 1, or Dredge. Some decks are, in fact, still cold to a turn 2 12/12 Trampler. These decks are getting fewer and further between, however, so focus this guy on plan A – Time Walking into Annihilation.

Emrakul, the Game Wrecker, Wife Stealer, Mother Lover, Baby Killer – Emrakul, the Aeons Torn cannot be countered. When you cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, take another turn after this one. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn cannot be Swords, Pathed, Chain of Vapored, Krosan Gripped, Washout’d, Perished, Red Blasted, or Wiped Away. Flying. When Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is declared as an attacker, your opponent sacrifices their will to continue playing this game.

Chrome Mox – this is here as a concession to the fact that a turn 1 Nought is better than a turn 2 Nought, and a turn 2 Show and Tell is better than a turn 3 Show and Tell. However, it is not a need – just a “that’d be cool.” Often suggested was Ancient Tomb. However, this does not play nicely with the extremely large amount of colored mana symbols in the deck. It would be great for accelerating out Show and Tell, but no other spells in the deck could use it. Chrome Mox is a fine replacement, and I’ve been really happy with it as a 2-of.

Mosswort Bridge – When this comes into play, look at the top 4 cards of your library, and put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn under it. If you control a creature named Phyrexian Dreadnought (even for a second), you may pay :g: and tap this land to win the game.

Other lands are lands.

The sideboard is a combination of catch-all answers (Krosan Grip, Duress, Pithing Needle, Crypt) and specific matchup exchanges. The Dudes sub in for 1 Emrakul each in specific matches:

Progenitus – Blue decks which would have access to Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, Jace Mind Sculptor, etc. Lands (Karakas). This dude has protection from EVERYTHING.

Iona, Shield of Emeria – Mono colored decks like Stupid Red Burn, Mono-B control, White Weenie, etc. Also against Combo, since naming Black wins.

Blazing Archon – Merfolk, Dredge, sometime Joblins. Attack-y decks that don’t run Path. Sometimes you board him in against Zoo anyway, since he makes them have the Path, and you get to Force it anyway.

Faerie Macabre doesn’t come in for Emrakul, but the card beats the shit out of Reanimator, and is not terrible against Dredge.

Duress comes in against anything with Blue or burn, Grip comes in against Grippy stuff, Needle comes in against their hate cards, Crypt is for Dredge and Reanimator. You all get it, standard stuff.



Strategery –

So, the basic plan A is to set up a Mosswort Bridge with an Emrakul under it, and play Dreadnought. You respond to the Dreadnought trigger with activating Mosswort Bridge, and making a Time Walking Emrakul. Then you let the Nought die. Who cares, he’s served his purpose. Then you take another turn, and wipe their board off the table. They go to 5 or less, and die. Most of the time, you say “take another turn” and they’re already sideboarding.

Plan B, or rather, Plan A2, is to cast a Show and Tell with Emrakul in your hand. This is the slightly slower, slightly more risky plan, but is almost always sufficient to get you there. Chances of the opponent having a card in hand that is more devastating than yours are slim – and it’s even ok to cast this spell against Reanimator! It’s not that big a deal for them to put Iona into play if they’re gonna lose it next turn, since they can’t even attack into Emrakul. It’s not that bad to take 7 from Inkwell once, since you smashy smash it on your turn. It’s really not even that bad to see them drop Blazing Archon, because they can’t attack either, and you’re going to have plenty of time to find either Wipe Away, or LDV to find the Wipe, and then the game is over. Unfortunately, this is not a winning strategy sometimes against aggro decks, since often the one card can be the difference between beating their clock and losing to it. This is a sacrifice that you have to make, though, in order to have 8 ways to cheat Emmy into play.

Plan C, or “oh look what I can do!” is to play a Dreadnought, and Stifle it’s trigger. Alternatively you could have a second Nought under a bridge, and cheat it into play with the trigger on the stack, then sac it to the other one. Either way, you end up with a 12/12. Seems ok, but it’s extremely vulnerable to a ton of different bad things. However, if you hit it on turn 1 or 2, you can often beat the hate.

That’s all there is to it. There is obviously a lot you need to feel out by playing the deck, but those are the basic strategies. Note that they are not independent of each other. They all have common cards, and they all work well together, although don’t forget your Emrakul is Legendary. There’s nothing wrong with running out a Stifle-Nought on turn 2, and activating the bridge on turn 3. Time Walking with lethal on the board is pretty awesome.

A couple other things I’ve learned from experience –

~ There is no matchup where you should side out Wipe Away. DON’T DO IT.
~ There is a reason you don’t board in Iona or Archon against Reanimator.
~ Don’t be afraid to run an extra Show and Tell out against blue with no guy in hand. They have to counter it. If you can document a situation where they choose to put a Sower in, and you put a land in, I will personally give you a high-five next time I see you. If you follow that up with another putting Emrakul in on the next turn, upgrade that high-five to a hug.

Some things to consider to start us off –

An additional land. That would be a great addition against decks like Merfolk and New Horizons. Could it be in the maindeck without diluting the deck, or should it be a sideboard slot?

I’ve been really tempted to try Misdirection. Is it worth playing?

Another off-key card I’ve been interested in trying is Teferi’s Response. It’s obviously narrow, but your lands are extremely important to protect. Granted, your opponent would likely be playing around the Stifle anyway, but it seems like a blowout.

That’s about all I have for now. Let’s get to the discussion!

Tournament Report (additional info) - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17601-Wait-what-does-that-thing-do-again-A-tournament-report-from-Nightmare

swoop
05-18-2010, 11:28 AM
I just got hard by reading your deckilst.
It looks fun and promising. As much as I hate progenitus/NO in sideboards,
this decklist lacks that, just uses Progenitus as a normal sideboard card for show and tell.

I will certainly test this deck as I own most of the cards, and rest I will blatantly steal (emrakuls) from guys
who've been to releases :)

Hope you get to work on this list!

emidln
05-18-2010, 11:28 AM
With the similarities this bears to the Emrakul deck I've been working on, I'll chime in on Misdirection. It's great vs Merfolk and Counterbalance decks, and bad vs everything else (maybe no Bg/x piles, but who runs those?).

The reason that it's good vs Merfolk (better than Daze or Spell Pierce) is that once they apply pressure in the early turns, they tend to sit with a bunch of lands open. This happens even faster if they resolve a Vial. Pitch counters let you build up a wall of lands with which to drop Show and Tell with Daze/Cursecatcher mana up (hopefully for Blazing Archon, which is a card that is very difficult for them to deal with). Emrakul past turn 3ish is sketchy as they'll sometimes just drop LoA and kill you, but before then is fairly solid. I counteract this a lot of accel (Dark Rits and Lotus Petals) that I keep in postboard. You have more dudes so should be able consistently go turn 2-4 depending on your protection (i.e. if you can afford to counter Daze with your own Daze or a pitch counter).

The reason that it's good vs Counterbalance is that it lets you force the issue on 3cc bombs. Even the Bant lists playing "a lot" of threes don't really have that many. Resolved counterbalance and often be let go as all it means is that they've tapped out and only have Force up, maybe Daze. Further, since you have Misdirection, you're more likely to be able to protect early Dreadnoughts (i.e. make them resolve) to activate Mosswort Bridge. Misdirection is excellent here at controlling early stack wars, which is exactly the sort of thing you want to be in against modern Counterbalance.

Aleksandr
05-18-2010, 12:51 PM
I just realized, that Mosswort Bridge is not errated in Gatherer. Does it mean that we actually donť cast Emrakul, or did they just forgot to errata it?

Anusien
05-18-2010, 12:53 PM
Play: 1. To play a land is to put a land onto the battlefield as a special action. See rule 114, "Special Actions," and rule 305, "Lands." 2. To play a card is to play that card as a land or cast that card as a spell, whichever is appropriate. See rule 601, "Casting Spells." 3. (Obsolete) Casting a spell used to be known as playing a spell. Cards with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Cast. 4. (Obsolete) Activating an activated ability used to be known as playing an activated ability. Cards with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Activate. 5. (Obsolete) The battlefield used to be known as the in-play zone. Cards that were printed with text that contains the phrases "in play," "from play," "into play," or the like are referring to the battlefield and have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Battlefield.

Anusien
05-18-2010, 12:56 PM
Did you consider cutting the Stifles for Tarmogoyf to serve as a blocker and randomly activating Bridge off Goyfs?

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 01:01 PM
Did you consider cutting the Stifles for Tarmogoyf to serve as a blocker and randomly activating Bridge off Goyfs?

Interesting question. In the tournament report, I mentioned that Goyf was originally in the list but was cut due to the fact that it was dead 99% of the time. It was basically a blank card on turns 3-5, when you really wanted to be drawing the stuff to make the combos work. I was ready to dismiss your comment out of hand due to this, but it's actually an interesting substitution. You lose the ability for Stifle to protect the Bridges, and for it to make Nought active, but you gain additional threats when you don't have a Nought in hand, and blockers. It could be worth a look, but my initial displeasure with the way Goyf plays in the deck makes me think I'll be happier with it being Stifle.

Anusien
05-18-2010, 01:20 PM
It didn't seem like you were doing a lot of Stifling Wastelands anyway, although you could have done it and just not mentioned it. If that's what you're using it for, how much worse is Teferi's Response?

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 01:22 PM
I didn't see a whole lot of Wastelands, honestly. I think only one was directed at a Bridge and I did indeed Stifle it. Of course, stifle has a bunch of other applications other than protecting your lands, which I'm sure you're aware.

Anusien
05-18-2010, 01:45 PM
It has other uses, but they're all kind of awful and I hate them and don't want to run the card. I would also feel like an idiot for Stifling the fetchlands of a deck with Waste and then get blown out by Wasteland.

The lack of Defense of the Heart in the deck concerns and confuses me. It's only one more mana than Bridge + activate + Dreadnought and it seems unbeatable against Fish decks and similar. At worst case, it just puts Emrakul onto the battlefield, but it gets nutty if you sideboard another man.

Valtrix
05-18-2010, 02:09 PM
I can't see Defense of the Heart being good in this deck because of it's slowness, cost, and vulnerability to enchantment removal. I feel like the deck has better things to than wait for 4 mana, and then wait again until next turn to make sure that the opposing player has enough creatures. Admittedly it is powerful, but it seems too conditional to be useful. It's not giving you the same game plan--Just another, worse method to go find creatures.

Also, this deck looks fun. Though, I am disappointed at the number of decks trying to cheat big creatures into play lately.

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 02:14 PM
If they keep making ridiculous creatures, we're gonna cheat them into play.

DrJones
05-18-2010, 02:34 PM
Also, this deck looks fun. Though, I am disappointed at the number of decks trying to cheat big creatures into play lately.You can see it as an update to the old mossnaught bridge deck.

Jon Stewart
05-18-2010, 02:47 PM
So is playing a three card combo?

Worldly Tutor + Mossburg Bridge + Dreadnought

that can also be two subpar two card combos...

Dreadnought + Stifle

Show and Tell + Emrakul

worth playing over one card combos like Natural Order that require you to devote far fewer slots to them (and devote more slots to disrutpion), and also play a more resilient creature.

FYI, Sower of Temptation can steal Emrakul, Oblivion Ring can get rid of it, as can Humility, Edicts, Innocent Bloods, Wraths/Damnations and a whole host of other hate.

Anusien
05-18-2010, 02:57 PM
Defense of the Heart is incredibly clumsy in the maindeck. But it seems like a fantastic card to board in against decks that are helpless to it, like Merfolk and Goblins especially.

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 02:57 PM
So is playing a three card combo?

Worldly Tutor + Mossburg Bridge + Dreadnought

that can also be two subpar two card combos...

Dreadnought + Stifle

Show and Tell + Emrakul

worth playing over one card combos like Natural Order that require you to devote far fewer slots to them (and devote more slots to disrutpion), and also play a more resilient creature.

FYI, Sower of Temptation can steal Emrakul, Oblivion Ring can get rid of it, as can Humility, Edicts, Innocent Bloods, Wraths/Damnations and a whole host of other hate.Are you planning to add something constructive, or just shitting in cornflakes?

I'm perfectly aware of the obstacles. There are ways to play around most of them. In fact, all of the cards you mentioned were mentioned in the opening post (or at least parallel hate cards were).

But because I'm killing time at work, let's say I do it again.

Sower of Temptation - Problematic, but not unbeatable. There are three ways to beat it. First, don't use Show and Tell. If you Bridge the Emrakul, they die before they get to play it. Second, Wipe it Away on their EOT, and kill their board. This is the least viable option. Third, board in Progenitus. This card is specifically why Progs is in the sideboard.

Oblivion Ring - See Sower, except they can't kill you with your own Emrakul. Also, Krosan Grip.

Humility - See Oblivion Ring. Again, if you EOT bounce it, and Bridge in an Emrakul, they are unlikely to be able to replay it.

Edicts - You play Thoughtseize, Duress, Force and Daze for a reason.

FYI - Emrakul is nearly as resilient as Progenitus, and has haste about 50% of the time. In addition, it assures that your opponent will NEVER be able to win after swinging. It also ignores Glacial Chasm (most of the time) and Circle of Protection: White.

emidln
05-18-2010, 02:58 PM
So is playing a three card combo?

Worldly Tutor + Mossburg Bridge + Dreadnought

that can also be two subpar two card combos...

Dreadnought + Stifle

Show and Tell + Emrakul

worth playing over one card combos like Natural Order that require you to devote far fewer slots to them (and devote more slots to disrutpion), and also play a more resilient creature.

FYI, Sower of Temptation can steal Emrakul, Oblivion Ring can get rid of it, as can Humility, Edicts, Innocent Bloods, Wraths/Damnations and a whole host of other hate.

That is assuming they have mana to cast said Sowers, Ob Rings, Humility, etc. Off Mosswort Bridge, they tend to lose that mana.

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 03:02 PM
Defense of the Heart is incredibly clumsy in the maindeck. But it seems like a fantastic card to board in against decks that are helpless to it, like Merfolk and Goblins especially.

Here's my concern - Defense of the Heart is 4 mana, where Show and Tell is three. You're playing it on turns 3-5, most likely on turn 4. When you do, you wait a whole turn for it to activate, so it is usually going to be a turn 5 Emrakul + Blazing Archon, with a turn 6 win. Against Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins, if they have the 3 creatures to activate the Defense, you're in bad shape anyway. They'll be running dudes into it and racing you. I mean, either that, or they smash your face with two guys and it never activates. I don't know. I'm willing to think about it but it feels slow and clunky to me. Not to mention, Pridemage.

Wargoos
05-18-2010, 03:14 PM
Is this a pun on Thunderbluff?

Nightmare
05-18-2010, 03:25 PM
No. I actually played this in a tournament, and it's actually really good.

Carabas
05-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Don't forget that stifle 'counters' O ring/Sower. I've been testing this deck a little bit, and while stifle hasn't done much, the only match it's been useful, it saved me twice: Once v. O ring, once v. waste on bridge.

Vacrix
05-18-2010, 08:49 PM
I like this list. Looks pretty solid. Though I understand the justification behind See Beyond, I still think its a pretty weak slot. Sorcery speed card quality at 2cc doesn't seem that great. Doesn't Brainstorm do the same thing at 1cc? I think Ponder looks stronger in that slot, especially when you can just Ponder into Brainstorm, and then throw back Emakrul (and BS obviously allows you to throw back 2 cards) with a fetch.

Otherwise this looks like a really solid list. Great work Nightmare. (props on the name btw)

EDIT:
Also Spell Pierce > Duress post board?

DragoFireheart
05-18-2010, 10:53 PM
What does this deck do to handle Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Jace can easily be brought down when you cast Show and Tell and simply bounce your Aeon right back into you hand.

Edit:


Oh and what we didn't even realize: They can not put Jace into play with Show and Tell. If you want to know why, read the card.

My bad. Ignore this post.

Jak
05-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Posted on Nightmare's report too.

Pros of See Beyond
-Gets rid of chaff in hand
-Gets you two new cards

Cons of See Beyond
-Sorcery
-Costs two
-Digs two deep
-No CA


Pros of Ponder
-Costs one
-Digs three cards deep

Cons of Ponder
-Sorcery
-No CA
-Doesn't fix up cards in hand

I dunno, I guess they are equal, but Ponder seems to be better in a combo-oriented deck since it is faster and digs deeper.

Van Phanel
05-19-2010, 01:49 AM
What does this deck do to handle Jace, the Mind Sculptorr? Jace can easily be brought down when you cast Show and Tell and simply bounce your Aeon right back into you hand.

Congratulations. You found yet another purpose of Stifle.

BKclassic
05-19-2010, 02:10 AM
Congratulations. You found yet another purpose of Stifle.


Also, Pithing Needle in the board isn't just for Sorrows Path.

Van Phanel
05-19-2010, 08:09 AM
Oh and what we didn't even realize: They can not put Jace into play with Show and Tell. If you want to know why, read the card.

Nightmare
05-19-2010, 09:11 AM
Because the conversation is split a bit between this thread and the tournament report, I'll go over a couple things again, so that we have it covered.

@ See Beyond - This card was a test slot in a few local events, but prior to that we ran Ponder in this position. So effectively, this replaced Ponder. Given that Ponder was working fine, I'm not going to flat-out say that you shouldn't run it, or that See Beyond is strictly better than Ponder in this or any deck. However, I will say I've been impressed with See Beyond, and it has been exactly what I was looking for it to be - three more Brainstorms in a deck that REALLY likes to Brainstorm. While Ponder has the benefits of digging deeper and previewing the top of your deck before you play Mosswort Bridge (let's be honest - it doesn't actually set it up, it just lets you know 50% of the cards Bridge will access), See Beyond has the ability to put those extra copies of the dead cards back where you want them. Looking at it from another perspective, it draws two cards, and puts the most situationally useless card away. Often I found myself shuffling either a Land, a Dreadnought, a Chrome Mox, or a spare Emrakul back. In all of the times I cast the card, I never needed to shuffle an active card away.

Again, I will concede that if you decide to pick up the deck, you may prefer to run Ponder. If that's the case, I'm happy you're picking the deck up at all. If you'd like to consider it an experimental slot, then feel free to test it out and let me know what you think.

@ Answers for Emrakul - Sure. There are cards that answer him. There are also cards that answer Iona, and Sphinx of Steel Wind, and Inkwell, etc. Reanimator is still undoubtedly one of the format's best decks. The existence of answers to your threat does not cause the threat to be any less effective. I've answered a few of the specific cards, and others have as well. However, one specific point that people suggesting these problems are continually forgetting is the fact that activating Mosswort Bridge CASTS Emrakul. You get the extra turn. The opponent who has an active Jace will not have the opportunity to use him, if you don't give them the turn to do so. The player who has a Sower in hand looks pretty foolish when you ignore Show and Tell and Bridge -> bash; alternatively, you could play like you have a clue and either Thoughtseize them prior to casting S&T, or wait for another mana to Stifle the Sower. Post board, you suddenly have a creature that ignores 99%* of the problems you've laid out (while they're likely to board in more of those type of answers), and you get to play Pithing Needle, which answers about 75%* of them.

Duress Vs. Spell Pierce - I had considered Spell Pierce, but the issue is that it costs a mana on the turn you want to play Show and Tell or activate the Bridge. If I were going to play additional blue protection in that slot, it would be Misdirection, simply to have more pitch magic against other counterspells, to prevent them from stopping my own spells. The advantage of Duress is the ability to take their answers proactively, on turns one or two - this means you really only need to worry about the topdecks between that turn and the turn you "go off," which is where your own counters come in. Spell Pierce is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it makes S&T cost 4, or even more if your opponent is playing Daze.

*(percentages are a fabrication)

Master Shake
05-19-2010, 02:47 PM
I don't feel this is being nit-picky; but the original post really doesn't seem to meet up to the standards established in the heading of the Established Decks section. Its clear that some testing has been doing with it and some work toward optimization has been done but I don't know how many people would agree that this deck list is definitive of the last word on the archetype. There is no match-up analysis included here and the report clearly doesn't cover the gauntlet.

That said, It looks interesting, I've done some goldfishing with and and it was terrible but I may try doing a run with this in my local tournament tonight. But man, See Beyond really isn't Brainstorm 5-7. I'll include a mini-write up. I'd like to echo the concern that this deck is really looking to hit 3 lands every game and there are only 18 (+2 Chrome mox) and the mana has just been driving me insane. For my tournament with the deck I'll likely be playing +1 Fetchland (Although there are times I can see really wanting a Bayou) -1 Show and Tell (I own 3, if I can get the 4th I may just play this list staright) Hopefully the deck does better in action than it has with my goldfishing.

Nightmare
05-19-2010, 03:01 PM
I don't feel this is being nit-picky; but the original post really doesn't seem to meet up to the standards established in the heading of the Established Decks section. Its clear that some testing has been doing with it and some work toward optimization has been done but I don't know how many people would agree that this deck list is definitive of the last word on the archetype. There is no match-up analysis included here and the report clearly doesn't cover the gauntlet.
That's fair, and fortunately, I have both the ability to correct the opening post, and the forum it's posted in. I'll work on the opener, but for now I've moved it to N&D.

morgan_coke
05-19-2010, 04:15 PM
Entire deck concept is cold to Astral Slide. Hope it becomes popular online, will enjoy the free wins. Thanks.

But on a more serious note, I'm not really convinced that Emrakul is what you want to be Show and Telling into play given the ever increasing popularity of stuff like Karakas and Seal of Removal, which have been growing in popularity due to the growth of this exact type of strategy - i.e., cheat a big huge monster into play using S&T or Reanimate or NO or Loyal Retainers. You're pulling in a lot of splash damage with this as your main plan.

emidln
05-19-2010, 05:14 PM
Entire deck concept is cold to Astral Slide. Hope it becomes popular online, will enjoy the free wins. Thanks.

Except that whole blow you out with stifle on your astral slide trigger, take another turn, make you sac your board thing and take 15 part of the deck right? I wish all of my decks were that cold to something...

Vacrix
05-19-2010, 05:43 PM
Except that whole blow you out with stifle on your astral slide trigger, take another turn, make you sac your board thing and take 15 part of the deck right? I wish all of my decks were that cold to something...
Hes clearly trolling. Who the hell plays astral slide?

MMogg
05-19-2010, 05:50 PM
Hes clearly trolling. Who the hell plays astral slide?

Umm, he does. If you hadn't noticed it's his favourite/pet deck and so he usually mentions it over and over and over. He has an Astral Slide thread started as well. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10626-[Deck]-Astral-Slide-vs-Legacy-take-78) (This is not meant to be disparaging to MC, just saying, it isn't a troll.)

morgan_coke
05-19-2010, 06:38 PM
Also, the entirety of my post still stands. Currently something like 2/3 of Legacy decks have a "cheat huge fatty into play and win" plan B going on. The format is adapting, and exposes a deck that relies on what is normally a Plan B as a Plan A to an absolutely absurd amount of splash damage. Honestly, how much longer will it be until people start boarding Fleshbag Marauders as a counter to Show and Tell/Eureaka tricks? Karakas is already everywhere, and O-Ring is gaining in popularity.

This is a cute deck, and it can be explosive, but it looks like a basically more combo oriented take on Dreadstill. And as the author notes, pretty much everyone can deal with a t2 12/12 now. Wont' be long before the decks that haven't bothered with it yet adapt to t2 "random giant legend" as well.

Also, Emidln, that was one of the most pathetic attempts at dismissing a Slide decks abilities I've ever seen. The obvious counter to a Stifle is to simply cycle another card. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Koby
05-19-2010, 09:23 PM
True story:

In testing this deck, I cast Emrakul twice vs. Death and Taxes. Stifle Karakas trigger, and bash for 15.

He untaps, plays another Karakas, and I'm out of the game while he recovers.

This happened twice in one match.

Master Shake
05-19-2010, 10:46 PM
I did play with this deck, and it did about what I expected it to:

Round 1 - Enchantress.

Game 1 - I thoughtseize an Enchantress, Counter an Enchantress, Counter an Enchantress all while I set up. I finish setting up and then win.
Game 2 - He mulligans into land + Sprawl. He is missing the 3rd mana source. My turn 1 Thoughtseize takes ChokeI take a few turns to set up and then get Emrakul to win.

Round 2 - Reanimator

Game 1 - We screw around for a long time I can't seem to set anything decent up, he entombs a Woodfall primus, he has double animate-spell to being it back and it just kills me. I eschewed the suggested Graveyard hate for Misdirection, it wasn't favorable.
Game 2 - We screw around a lot again, He reanimates a Primus discarded Careful Study off, I Show and Tell an Emrakul, he gets a land.He Careful Studies again and Edicts me. I draw a Brainstorm while holding another Show and Tell, but The Brainstorm doesn't give me an Emrakul.

Round 3 - Goblins

Game 1 - Turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Vial, he has one land. Turn 2 Stifle-Nought. He concedes
Game 2 - Much closer he has turn 1 Lackey, I start setting up. He gets a Ringleader (That wiffs) and A vial on 2. I keep setting up. He gets a piledriver on 3. I Stifle-Nought, he attacks into it, I block the Piledriver, he Lackeys in a Matron for Stingscourger, bouncing Dreadnought. I play a Show and Tell, he has nothing, I have Emrakul. He topdecks a Matron but only plays one Stingscourger.

Round 4 - Bgw Loam

Game 1 - I get a turn 2 Show and Tell. I put in Emrakul (Hidden) He puts in Karakas. That was the end of that.
Game 2 - He keeps one land, Duress, Duress. He never really gets a second land and I set up 2 Bridges (Emrakul and Stifle) and finally find LDV for Nought. Put 27 damage on the table, take an extra turn.
Game 3 - I take a ton of beats while I try to find a third land, I lay an early Needle on Wasteland which keeps me in the game. He is struggling for white. I finally find my 3rd land and don't have time to Lim-Dul's Vault into Dreadnought (for the Emrakul uner my Bridge) so I go for Show and Tell, I put in Emrakul he puts in Knights of the [old] Republic (KotR) That turns a Bayou into a Karakas and makes it so I take even more lethal damage than before. I did get to misdirection a Vindicate at his Karakas, but I didn't draw another bunch of cards that I needed to even be in the game.

-------------------------------
My observations (some are restatements.)

The mana gave me all kinds of problems just like I thought it would. Its mandatory to jump through hoops to play anything because the deck needs GGBU to operate.

See Beyond was either decent or not very good. Ponder helps set up a turn 2 anything, where See Beyond can only do that with the assistance of Chrome Mox.

Mosswort bridge is an awful mana source.

I'm skeptical that Reanimator is as favorable as suggested.

KotR is a problem for all of these show and Tell decks because he always has the back-up of disruption of some sort.

Anusien
05-20-2010, 02:09 PM
Should Stifle just become Needle?

Nightmare
05-20-2010, 02:12 PM
I get it. You hate Stifle. Get over it.

Master Shake
05-20-2010, 04:30 PM
Should Stifle just become Needle?

I'm pretty sure you cannot Pithing Needle a Phyrexian Dreadnought and have anything good come of it.

Anusien
05-20-2010, 04:31 PM
If that plan were amazing, we'd all still be playing Dreadstill.

Koby
05-20-2010, 04:32 PM
While I like Stifle to play tempo - this deck needs something more reliable to stop recurring annoyances like Wasteland or Karakas, even AEther Vial can be a problem sometimes.

I'm also not sure if I'm playing this deck correctly. There are many turns where I'm literally doing nothing and just passing the turn to draw into gas, or into Dreadnought to trigger Mosswort Bridge, or waiting to draw into Bridge so I can fire off an Emrakul, or waiting to draw a Show and Tell to cheat it into play. Maybe my luck is just bad, but there are many turns where I feel like I'm not advancing my goals and getting beat down instead.

Nightmare - can you provide a few sample hands and discuss what you consider is a good hand, and what you consider is a weak hand?

Master Shake
05-20-2010, 04:59 PM
If that plan were amazing, we'd all still be playing Dreadstill.

So, rather than discuss the deck, you're going to dismiss it on the platform that you don't like the Stifle-Dreadnought Interaction? That doesn't seem like the sort of discussion that should really be in the thread.

Or perhaps you are proposing just using Deadnought as only an enabler for Mosswort Bridge and to not include a disruption piece that can enable it as a win condition. Because with that line of play makes it so that the only path to victory is Show and Tell Emrakul or Play Dreadnought with a Mosswort Bridge hiding an Emrakul. If that is what you're suggesting - that's the worst.

Needle is also awful all over, especially game 1 - where at least Stifle can stop something. In fact, nearly time I was Duress/Thoughtseized Stifle was the card that was taken (Over Force, Misdirection, some other blue card.) And I really didn't think that was the wrong play.

And while we're doing off-topic stuff - I believe there was a tournament report about Dreadstill coming in second at BoM 4. That's odd.

It is comments like the ones you've made are which are the reason why I stole my signature from Dinosaur Comics. I don't really understand why you've been trolling this thread with the most absurd and awful ideas.

edgewalker
05-21-2010, 10:26 AM
So, rather than discuss the deck, you're going to dismiss it on the platform that you don't like the Stifle-Dreadnought Interaction? That doesn't seem like the sort of discussion that should really be in the thread.

Or perhaps you are proposing just using Deadnought as an en onlyabler for Mosswort Bridge and to not include a disruption piece that can enable it as a win condition. Because with that line of play makes it so that the only path to victory is Show and Tell Emrakul or Play Dreadnought with a Mosswort Bridge hiding an Emrakul. If that is what you're suggesting - that's the worst.

Needle is also awful all over, especially game 1 - where at least Stifle can stop something. In fact, nearly time I was Duress/Thoughtseized Stifle was the card that was taken (Over Force, Misdirection, some other blue card.) And I really didn't think that was the wrong play.

And while we're doing off-topic stuff - I believe there was a tournament report about Dreadstill coming in second at BoM 4. That's odd.

It is comments like the ones you've made are why I stole my signature from Dinosaur Comics. I don't really understand why you've been trolling this thread with the most absurd and awful ideas.

I think he's referring to pithing needle on dreadnaught

Master Shake
05-21-2010, 03:10 PM
I intend to give this deck another run with Ponder over See Beyond - Considering that this is a combo deck, Ponder seems much more well suited to setting up a fast win, rather than just helping to shuffle away a bad card.

I'm torn between wanting to play LDV and Worldly Tutor, I may rather just play additional Stifle effects or Misdirection over the Worldly tutor, there was only one time I ever Went Worldly Tutor into Emrakul, but there have been a couple of times where I have used it to get a second Dreadnought.

death
05-21-2010, 08:03 PM
4 Show and Tell
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Lotus Petal
4 Mosswort Bridge
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest

I've done minor tuning.. Cutting See Beyond and the redundant green tutor. Replaced CD (card disadvantage) moxes with 3 petals since you mostly need accel for SnT anyway. I bet this speeds up the deck a bit, more consistent/quality draws with Ponders + 6 fetches. 2cc cantrips seem slow. Lastly, I added the missing combo/disruption piece (Trickbind).

Oiolosse
05-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Living Wish? I am sure it has passed through most of your minds but tell me the reasons not to include it? You can find Emrakul if you have SnT. You can find Mossbridge if you have Emrakul on top. You can find dreadnought if you have Mossbridge. You can even find karakas, maze of ith, etc..

Have you guys tested Ancestral Knowledge? I have always loved this card. Pruning any number of ten cards and rearranging the rest is incredible. In ten cards you are likely to find one of, Mossbridge, dreadnought, emrakul, SnT. Trust me, AK is worth a try.

Oiolosse
05-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Living Wish? I am sure it has passed through most of your minds but tell me the reasons not to include it? You can find Emrakul if you have SnT. You can find Mossbridge if you have Emrakul on top. You can find dreadnought if you have Mossbridge. You can even find karakas, maze of ith, etc..

Have you guys tested Ancestral Knowledge? I have always loved this card. Pruning any number of ten cards and rearranging the rest is incredible. In ten cards you are likely to find one of, Mossbridge, dreadnought, emrakul, SnT. Trust me, AK is worth a try.

death
05-21-2010, 10:25 PM
It's hard to pay the upkeep cost every time when you can just spend mana to tutor pieces or disrupt the opponent. When it leaves play, you also shuffle your library which is futile. LDV works better than wish since it finds also the sorceries and instants.

Finn
05-22-2010, 06:00 PM
So for only the second time in my life I took someone else's deck to a competitive environment. (It wasn't quite a tournament.) I have some observations to report.

This deck has a hard freaking time against lands. I don't mean the deck "Lands". I mean the card type. In case you hadn't noticed, Karakas is now officially everywhere. "Just as the format is adjusting to Iona" is a bad time to be introducing this deck. Wasteland is obviously also a problem. Even Rishadan Port essentially shuts an element of this deck off. By the way, since we are on the subject, Mangara and Oblivion Ring are also not fun for this deck. The guy even had Goldmeadow Harrier. So you can predict my matches against D+T.


While I like Stifle to play tempo - this deck needs something more reliable to stop recurring annoyances like Wasteland or Karakas, even AEther Vial can be a problem sometimes.This is my sentiment exactly. The deck has such serious problems with some really common lands. Maybe Stifle and Needle are both necessary. If they are I don't think the deck is going to work in the long run, though it may still be worth pursuing it. The crappy part about these measures is that Thoughtseize doesn't even protect us against them since it can't hit lands. I think Thoughtseize has to go.


But also,
Merfolk is starting to use Seal of Removal more often.
I have not experienced it, but I will bet that Goblins can keep Mosswort Bridge out of the picture often enough to race the Show And Tell'd Emrakul.

I think the deck needs a plan B that does not involve attacking with Emrakul. I already tried the deck out with no green and no Dreadnoughts. I used red in its place and liked it well enough to offer it as an alternative. The reason: Erratic Explosion. If the deck can reliably kill in this completely different manner, opponents will have a much, much harder time defending it. The problem - it's still only 15 damage. You have to manage the rest in some other way or cast it twice.

Nightmare
05-25-2010, 09:56 AM
Lands are, in fact, an issue for the deck. I'm aware of that, but it's something that's difficult to really deal with in any meaningful way, aside from the 4 Stifle in the main and 3 Pithing Needle in the board.

Death and Taxes is not, nor has ever been, a concern of mine. It can have a 100% matchup against this deck and I would not change a single card because of it. It would appear, yes, that it's a rough matchup, but as I've played against the deck in exactly one sanctioned match ever - which was almost 5 years ago - I'm not really worried.

At one point I was running Red instead of black in order to access Firespout. I was also running more Worldly Tutors and Goyf. This went a long way to improve the aggro matchups, obviously, but it ultimately felt like a weaker deck. You gave up a lot of speed to play a more controlling game, when in reality you should have just been trying to win faster than they could disrupt you.

I've taken some of the considerations in the thread to heart, replacing the See Beyonds with the Ponders they used to be. I've also cut a card for an additional land, which has been good obviously. I'm testing a list with lands in place of the Chrome Moxen to see what that does for consistency, I'm not positive it will be a true improvement, but I don't believe the loss of a turn here and there will be more important than the additional security of the manabase. The interesting thing to me, however, is that Chrome Mox played more like an un-disruptable mana source than acceleration most of the time, and I may actually miss that more than anything. Lands can't Port or Waste a Chrome Mox.

I'll keep you guys posted on whether I consider these changes improvements, or if anything else in the deck switches around.

DragoFireheart
05-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Take a look at this new deck:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242014



It's basically a bastard child of Storm and your Aeon Bridge deck.

Anusien
05-25-2010, 05:51 PM
How much advantage do you get from running your own Karakas to Legend rule theirs? The mana is probably too awful to consider making the change, but it's something to think about.

P.S., Master Shake: I'm not trolling, I just don't like the card Stifle. I think Needle has more value than it. I'm willing to be wrong on this issue, but I'm going to offer suggestions I think are valid. Personally, I think the Stifle-Dreadnaught plan is awful, and most people have moved away from it. I will point out that many people posted in the thread that they had problems stopping Karakas long enough to get two swings. Needle lets you spend mana pre-combo to stop Karakas instead of on the combo turn, where your mana is tighter.

Mirrislegend
05-25-2010, 06:35 PM
I cannot figure out how Bridge->Nought gets you around the Nought trigger. It's driving me nuts. Can someone explain this?

emidln
05-25-2010, 06:37 PM
Take a look at this new deck:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242014



It's basically a bastard child of Storm and your Aeon Bridge deck.

Except that we never saw Nightmare's list when developing the deck. To be honest, it's not like "cheating fattie into play" backed by cheap cantrips, tutoring, and disruption is a novel concept. I mean, there's been Dragon, Flash, Cephalid Breakfast, Reanimator, random Show and Tell decks, the original Mosswort Bridge/Protean Hulk deck, etc, etc.

Roman Candle
05-25-2010, 06:45 PM
I cannot figure out how Bridge->Nought gets you around the Nought trigger. It's driving me nuts. Can someone explain this?

It doesn't, unless of course you flip up a Stifle or another Nought with Bridge. The main goal, though, is to play Nought, activate Bridge with its ability on the stack, play Emrakul, then sacrifice Nought, and pretty much win.

swoop
05-26-2010, 06:19 AM
And if possible win by stifling nought then, and hitting for over 9000 dmg the next turn

iOWN
05-28-2010, 04:36 PM
I personally don't like Crop Rotation at all because it messes up the top of your library, but it does help a little against both Wasteland and Karakas (if you ran a one-of Karakas in the sideboard). It seems like you should be able to play around Karakas without too much trouble though; wait until you have Show and Tell or Stifle, or enough extra mana to tutor for Show and Tell during your second upkeep.

denial
06-04-2010, 03:01 PM
Whats the purpose of Lim-Dul's Vault in this deck ? Also, whats the reason for the low land count ?

death
06-04-2010, 06:42 PM
It functions as a multi-purpose tutor, sorta like an instant speed Imperial Seal except it costs U more, lets you set up the extra 4 cards on top of your libray, and can pitch to Force. The earliest deck I know that utilize it was Necropotence/Mirror Universe way back when Mirror was newly unrestricted in vintage

Nightmare
06-20-2010, 10:26 AM
Just as an aside on this deck (which I'm still playing, and doing well with) - The banning of Mystical Tutor makes this deck much better against the field, since the worst kinds of hate for it were splash damage from Reanimator. With that deck off the radar, we should be seeing less Karakas and such, and that will make a much better environment for this deck to thrive.

Vacrix
06-20-2010, 11:26 PM
I agree that this deck got stronger post-MT ban. I do think we will see more Karakas though simply because WoTC just got rid of 2 of DnT's worst matchups.

Would you change the board at all now that you don't have to deal with Reanimator? Faerie Macabre is looks like it could get cut for something else.

Nightmare
06-21-2010, 08:29 AM
Honest reply - I don't understand what universe you people live in where death and taxes is a real deck. I'll say it again: in the 6 years I've played this format at its highest level, I've played against it once, and that was in 2005. Its not worth my concern as a deckbuilder.

As for macabre, I'm reserving one slot for it, since worldly tutor still sets it up. The second copy will likely change. I'll have a better idea of what it changes to once the metagame settles.

Mystical_Jackass
06-21-2010, 11:55 AM
Awesome, how did I miss this deck? I love it, the only small suggestion I would consider, if I were putting it together, maybe go -2 chrome mox and +4 Lotus Petal. Having some experience running the Shelldock the card disadvantage for a permanent mana source isn't really needed, for something like this where it's just a one time shot, ya know. Petal can also produce green in case of wastes, and you can save some more blue in your hand for FoW. That's all I got.

death
06-21-2010, 03:52 PM
"Mossnought"

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mosswort Bridge
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
2 Forest

This made T6/60 yesterday 6/20. Some differences include the absence of 4x Thoughtseize, SnT, Ponder and LDV. Instead it utilizes 4x Wordly Tutor, 4x Crop Rotation, 3x Trinket Mages, 2x Top and Expedition map to tutor for pieces.

MMogg
06-21-2010, 05:11 PM
Honest reply - I don't understand what universe you people live in where death and taxes is a real deck.

MTGO? It's pretty popular on there, most likely for cost reasons.

cb4
06-22-2010, 01:00 AM
Amulet of Vigor might be worth a slot if you run trinket mage. It would allow you to drop mosswort and crack it on the same turn. It would still be vulnerable to wasteland in response to the hideaway trigger.

jrsthethird
06-22-2010, 01:44 AM
Amulet of Vigor might be worth a slot if you run trinket mage. It would allow you to drop mosswort and crack it on the same turn. It would still be vulnerable to wasteland in response to the hideaway trigger.

Although, if they crack Wasteland in response to the Hideaway trigger, it saves you from exiling your win-con.

Nightmare
06-22-2010, 06:34 AM
I would never play this deck without 4 Show and Tell. I suppose running more green and no black is considerable, but no S&T is a recipe for 8 dead cards in your deck showing up without any Brainstorms to put them back.

Kuma
06-23-2010, 03:24 PM
I've been playing Aeon Bridge for a couple of weeks, and while I had high hopes for it, it has been disappointing. While it's a much better deck than Cephalid Breakfast ever was, that's what it reminds me of. Aeon Bridge is vulnerable to artifact removal, creature removal, land destruction, discard, non-graveyard Reanimator hate, Pithing Needle, and Stifle. It can play through a lot of that, but it often can't play through enough of that. Slow control is difficult, Merfolk is ~30/70 in testing, and ANT is unfavorable too. Granted, Aeon Bridge destroys Zoo, Lands, and Bant, but it isn't something I would take to a large event. I've done well in local tournaments, but I went 1-3 at two seperate GPTs. Hopefully the Mystical Tutor ban improves Aeon Bridge's prospects, because it's a blast to play. Still, any deck that relies on Phyrexian Dreadnought is always going to have issues with hate.

dahcmai
06-27-2010, 03:40 PM
Here's what I have been playing with lately.

4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothils
3 Mosswort Bridge
3 Living Wish
3 Show and Tell
4 Worldly Tutor
3 Emrakul
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
3 Burning Wish
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Erratic Explosion


It shows some promise so far, but still need serious tuning. Might be worth thinking about some of the odd choices in here. Most of the interactions are redundant and obvious. I probably don't need to go into it much so just ask if you have a question. It's similar enough to Aeon Bridge so I figured I'd post it here.


Edit: Probably want this.
Preliminary Side/Wishboard

Mosswort Bridge
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Erratic Explosion
Wasteland
Psionic Blast
REB
BEB
Krosan Grip
Emrakul
Show and Tell
Bosigie, who Shelters All
Karakas

Jak
06-27-2010, 06:00 PM
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19622.html

Nightmare
06-27-2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah, apparently Conely Woods invented this deck today. Or took my list and added Form of the Dragon.

I'm unpleased.

dahcmai
06-27-2010, 08:51 PM
Well, SCG is noted for not really knowing what's going on actually and not talking to the players so we can hope that Conley will mention it on Channelfireball. It's too close of a list to not give credit.

Aggro_zombies
06-27-2010, 09:02 PM
Well, SCG is noted for not really knowing what's going on actually and not talking to the players so we can hope that Conley will mention it on Channelfireball. It's too close of a list to not give credit.
He probably doesn't know who invented it. Usually, when a pro shows up to a tournament like this with a fringe deck developed by someone else, the tournament report will say something like, "A friend of mine gave me a list that he found on some website and that looked like it had potential. I changed a few cards I didn't like and then played it."

Also, he's apparently not doing so hot with it after five rounds of play (EDIT: According to the Twitter feed, Top 8 was announced a little while ago. Why does SCG always have such infinitely slow coverage updates?).

Arsenal
06-27-2010, 09:20 PM
13 year old Standard player piloting Merfolk crushed Michael Pozsgay running Aeon Bridge.

cdr
06-27-2010, 09:44 PM
Bill Stark loves to give credit for decks to the first person he sees playing it. I wouldn't blame Conley without more evidence.

dahcmai
06-28-2010, 12:04 AM
It's still nice to see this new type tested in a decently large tournament and see it do well. Maybe it didn't hit the number 1 spot, but it shows it has promise.

Aggro_zombies
06-28-2010, 02:05 AM
Well, one of the two of them made top 8: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33466

I'm kind of puzzled by the Form of the Dragon. It's not something you'd ever want to play against Zoo, and Emrakul makes it too hard for control decks to play attrition thanks to Annihilator. The card is a blank versus combo. Where do you want it? Even a deck like Counterbalance can fight you over your ways to get it into play, and the NO varieties can show you really awkward Qasali Pridemages. I mean, the best I can come up with is that it's an out to Lands if the game has gone long, but if the game has gone long enough for Lands to completely blank Emrakul with LftL, you shouldn't have any mana left because of Ports, Wastelands, and Ghost Quarters. So yeah, I'm not sure where the random Form is better than the fourth Emrakul.

EDIT: Maybe versus Humility? But it seems like you're pretty well equipped to fight that with permission and discard...

Rico Suave
06-28-2010, 02:24 AM
After watching the feature match and listening to one of his opponents talk after the match, it was pretty evident that Form of the Dragon won him at least 2 matches.

Is it good against Zoo? Not really. But it hoses so many other decks like Goblins and Merfolk and Natural Order. Half the top 8 at that tournament basically scoops to the card, both pre and post board.

Skullclamping
06-28-2010, 04:22 AM
Stark just gives his bad opinion... check what he says about the Dream Halls - Conflux deck, totally misses the win-con

iOWN
06-28-2010, 12:14 PM
The Bridge, which is quite possibly making its debut in the Legacy format this weekend,

What a joke...

menace13
06-28-2010, 12:32 PM
Wow missed that part, I mean what does he know? Not like you can pull up deckcheck in a second and see a few Mossnoughts and Full english Bfast decks with it???

JACO
06-28-2010, 07:15 PM
I talk a little bit about this deck, and about Bill Stark's coverage, in my new article for Eternal-Central.com today:
Instant Analysis – SCG St. Louis Legacy $5K (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=109)

I've got a slightly updated decklist in there too, and I'd be curious to hear Nightmare's thoughts on this.

danyul
06-29-2010, 12:10 AM
http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3226

Little but of action stirring up on another forum which Bill Stark frequents. Jaco, your article is mentioned too. Apparently the player claimed the list was his and Stark saw no reason not to believe him since they knew each other. Just thought you guys might want a bit of clarification from Stark himself.

Nightmare
06-29-2010, 06:50 AM
Thanks for the backup, guys. I'm not usually one of those people clamoring for credit, but this situation is rather odd in my eyes. You've got a guy who's known for his deckbuilding skills, who takes an obscure deck off a forum no pros really care about, and calls it his own. I feel like I've put too much effort into this deck (when almost every person who has seen it has laughed it off as a joke) for someone to snake it from me. I'm not super-upset, like people seem to think, I'm just kinda bummed at the situation.

That being said, the latest list I played had also cut Worldly, and had cut Chrome Moxen for more lands. I'm willing to admit that Form of the Dragon is pretty hot tech, so I would say it's worth playing. I would not, however, run less Emrakul. It's hard enough to find the card as it is. I also really don't get what value Clique has as a singleton, and that's where I would start with finding wiggle room. Here's how I would re-work it:

4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Show and Tell
4 Stifle
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Wipe Away
1 Form of the Dragon

4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

It seems like Jaco and I agree on the spells, but the manabase is different. It's extremely important to have green sources, and the Swamp sucks. I could see cutting a dual for another fetch, but it would be the third Sea, not the fourth Trop.

JACO
06-29-2010, 02:48 PM
That being said, the latest list I played had also cut Worldly, and had cut Chrome Moxen for more lands. I'm willing to admit that Form of the Dragon is pretty hot tech, so I would say it's worth playing. I would not, however, run less Emrakul. It's hard enough to find the card as it is. I also really don't get what value Clique has as a singleton, and that's where I would start with finding wiggle room.I talked to Mike at the event and he seemed to really like the Clique and was maybe thinking there should even be another in the board for more disruption, but the cost/benefit ratio kills it for me. Swinging with a 3/1 that dies to everything isn't really going to get you there, and for 3 mana I'd rather be winning the game with Lim-Dul's Vault or Show and Tell.


It seems like Jaco and I agree on the spells, but the manabase is different. It's extremely important to have green sources, and the Swamp sucks. I could see cutting a dual for another fetch, but it would be the third Sea, not the fourth Trop.Green is important for Mosswort, but there's no other Green costs in the deck, right? I'm the type of person that loves to sit on fetchlands and will nearly always fetch basics first when possible, so the manabase I designed is for how I play in general. I don't like the idea of leading with Ponder (Island), then fetching a dual lands that's going to get Wastelanded when I want to cast Thoughtseize or Lim-Dul's Vault on turn 2 (and yes, I understand that's one less Wasteland that could be pointed at Mosswort). There's actually a good amount of Black in the deck that you want to be casting, and with a relatively land light deck I think I want one of each basic to be able to sufficiently cast my spells against Merfolk and other garbabe, play around Daze/Cursecatcher/Spell Pierce/etc. That being said, I think it might be right to cut the additional Underground to play another Tropical, because there's pretty much never a situation where I can see myself fetching more than even the first Underground in a game.

denial
06-29-2010, 06:27 PM
If you think I have time to worry about some guy on a forum claiming HE built a deck when a respected pro I have done many deck techs with claim it's his own build, you're crazy. It's just not a relevant thing to care about;


Nothing personal. But I dont think I've ever respected a liar in my life, pro or anyone else.

:eyebrow:

Aggro_zombies
06-30-2010, 12:17 AM
Thanks for the backup, guys. I'm not usually one of those people clamoring for credit, but this situation is rather odd in my eyes. You've got a guy who's known for his deckbuilding skills, who takes an obscure deck off a forum no pros really care about, and calls it his own. I feel like I've put too much effort into this deck (when almost every person who has seen it has laughed it off as a joke) for someone to snake it from me. I'm not super-upset, like people seem to think, I'm just kinda bummed at the situation.
If it makes you feel any better, Gerry T name drops you in his article today as the guy who created the deck.


On the bright side, Adam Barnello’s Mosswort Bridge/Emrakul deck made Top 8 in the hands of Michael Poszgay. That was one of the decks that I was considering playing since it looks so fun and awesome, so I’m glad to see Adam’s creation doing well.

Nightmare
06-30-2010, 06:42 AM
Yeah, Gerry and I have been discussing the deck for a while. He was interested in it from when I posted the tournament report a month or two ago.

I'm over the whole deal. At this point its become more of a "thing" than I ever expected it to. If Conley would have just mentioned he found a list online, it wouldn't have blown up like this. Fortunately, I've got support enough to actually get the real story out there. And thanks again to all of you who have helped! But as I said, I'm over it. Let's get back to discussing the deck - since now people may believe its actually awesome.

Ps - thanks to Hi-Val for the name drop, too.

menace13
07-02-2010, 11:24 AM
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8990

Conley Woods explains his side of it.

MMogg
07-03-2010, 01:46 AM
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8990

Conley Woods explains his side of it.

Yeah, not to drag it out, but this is bullshit:


I am sorry if someone felt they lost credit for the deck and if they felt that it was important to them. I don't think it is worth the discussion that has come about as a result. The bottom line is that I did not steal a deck but rather evolved it simultaneously and would think that moving past this and focusing on more important things would be best for everyone. Decks likely get built simultaneously all the time in Legacy, as that is the nature of the format. Regardless, I had not gotten to speak my peace on the subject so thought addressing it now was for the best.

Sorry, but parallel evolution is hard to believe when there are three levels to the deck (Stifle-Nought, Show & Tell, and Mosswort Bridge). When it comes down to it, it's his unverifiable word versus the date of the forum post where Nightmare displayed the deck. No matter how much I say I was in my basement working frantically on the same deck as New Horizons, the fact of the matter is, it's already Price's. Same goes here in my humble opinion. He could have at least mentioned Adam's name and not been such a douche about it. "Oh yeah, I stole Wipe Away but nothing else." :eyebrow: Got some ocean front property in Kansas I can buy?

Anyway, saw this deck in action on MTGO today... went 4-0. Really interesting deck that looks like a blast to play. Not as all-in as it first appears on paper. I was also surprised that Mosswort allows Aeon's time walk ability to trigger. Because of the wording on Mosswort, I thought it didn't trigger. That makes this deck much more nuts than I had first imagined.

menace13
07-03-2010, 02:45 AM
Yeah, not to drag it out, but this is bullshit:



Sorry, but parallel evolution is hard to believe when there are three levels to the deck (Stifle-Nought, Show & Tell, and Mosswort Bridge). When it comes down to it, it's his unverifiable word versus the date of the forum post where Nightmare displayed the deck. No matter how much I say I was in my basement working frantically on the same deck as New Horizons, the fact of the matter is, it's already Price's. Same goes here in my humble opinion. He could have at least mentioned Adam's name and not been such a douche about it. "Oh yeah, I stole Wipe Away but nothing else." :eyebrow: Got some ocean front property in Kansas I can buy?

Anyway, saw this deck in action on MTGO today... went 4-0. Really interesting deck that looks like a blast to play. Not as all-in as it first appears on paper. I was also surprised that Mosswort allows Aeon's time walk ability to trigger. Because of the wording on Mosswort, I thought it didn't trigger. That makes this deck much more nuts than I had first imagined.

I agree, total dickhead move: He ends up proclaiming that he now all of a sudden simultaneously evolved it?? buh whattt??? That fat rosey cheeked bastard

Edit:Mossbridge is game ending much like shelldock isle in DDGO lists.

Darkenslight
07-03-2010, 01:43 PM
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8990

Conley Woods explains his side of it.

Mythbusters Conslusion: Plausible, but unlikely.

To contribute: What about the card Preordain? Scry2, then draw seems pretty strong.

Also, Vengeful Archon seems like a good plan against Aggro.

menace13
07-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Bayou (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Bayou'))
1 Forest (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Forest'))
2 Island (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Island'))
3 Misty Rainforest (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Misty_Rainforest'))
4 Mosswort Bridge (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Mosswort_Bridge'))
3 Polluted Delta (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Polluted_Delta'))
1 Swamp (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Swamp'))
2 Tropical Island (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Tropical_Island'))
3 Underground Sea (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Underground_Sea'))

20 lands


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Emrakul,_the_Aeons_Torn'))
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Phyrexian_Dreadnought'))
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Sphinx_of_the_Steel_Wind'))
9 creatures


4 Brainstorm (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Brainstorm'))
3 Daze (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Daze'))
4 Force of Will (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Force_of_Will'))
1 Form of the Dragon (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Form_of_the_Dragon'))
4 Lim-DA?l's Vault (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Lim-DA?l[s_Vault'))
4 Show and Tell (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Show_and_Tell'))
4 Stifle (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Stifle'))
4 Thoughtseize (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Thoughtseize'))
3 Worldly Tutor (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Worldly_Tutor'))
31 other spells
Sideboard

1 Blazing Archon (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Blazing_Archon'))
2 Duress (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Duress'))
1 Faerie Macabre (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Faerie_Macabre'))
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Iona,_Shield_of_Emeria'))
2 Krosan Grip (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Krosan_Grip'))
3 Pernicious Deed (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Pernicious_Deed'))
2 Pithing Needle (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Pithing_Needle'))
3 Tormod's Crypt (http://javascript<b></b>:autoCardWindow('Tormod[s_Crypt'))
15 sideboard cards

Piloted by DoctorPenick to back to back 4-0's with Steel Wind and Wordly Tutor package.
LSV also gave the deck a whirl going 1-2 drop.Nice to see the deck getting picked up.
Thoughts on the Tutor plan?

Nightmare
07-04-2010, 01:34 AM
Look, I'm not one to continue drama after the fact. Stark apologized, Conley Woods apologized, and gave credit at least in some form to myself and this thread. I got my name attached to the deck in multiple articles on SCG, where people are actually reading about it. That's good enough for me. As I said off the bat, I never claimed he stole anything. Thats not how this game works. I just wanted to be credited the way that I now have been, so as far as I'm concerned, its a dead issue. Conley got Wipe Away from me (amongst other things, I'm sure) and I got Form from him - which has been really good.

Let's leave it at that, and talk more about how awesome it is to drop 15/15 Fliers for 3.

Anusien
07-04-2010, 10:26 AM
LSV is playing this deck in the Daily Events; he's been experimenting with Worldly Tutor.

What do you think of Conley Woods's sideboard? Granted the metagame is different, but there were some interesting ideas there.
You probably don't need extra Form of the Dragons, since those were really an answer to Reanimator creature hate, which shouldn't be a problem. I think Deed is a good idea though.

Which cards do you consider cuttable post-board, and what sort of sideboard strategies would you pursue against the field?
Edit: In other words, in what matchups do you just try to jam the combo in, versus bringing in a lot of removal like Deed, etc.

Srovex
07-04-2010, 04:54 PM
Hello!

I actually went 3-1 with his deck in small (16 players, 4 rounds, no top 4) local tournament today.
My Main deck was basically the same as Nightmares last list with few differences. Most downgrades because I didn't have enough time to get all the cards needed. Most notable exceptions:
land base was inferior at 1 flooded strand, 4 polluted delta, 1 misty rain forest and only 3 tropicals. I didn't face any problems with it tough but I will definately invest in 4x Misty for the next time I use this.
Second change was that I had to use Duress instead of Thoughtseize, Most of the time it was good but mattered in perhaps in 2 matches in tournament and in one match for fun after it. It is a must upgrade too tough and I will explain one situation where it would have lost me the game later.
Third I didn't have Form of the Dragon so was was going to use 4th ponder but forgot it home :rolleyes: So I used Trickbind instead and it was fine in every game I got it.
In side I had
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormods Crypt
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Pithing Needle
1x Iona
Again I would probably have wanted Blazing Archon in here somewhere if I had gotten one.

The tournament wasn't exactly the most competitive one, but that's one of the reasons I took this deck to a walk instead of my dear Zoo. I was a nice opportunity to test it in actual tournament environment.

R1 Goblins
He didn't have too tuned up list and he also said that he's coming back to game after few years brake.
G1 He plays and starts with turn 1 skirkprospektor. Turn 2 lotus petal -> Warchief. Turn 3 piledriver. I get a turn 3 S&T -> emrakul and he has some 2 power goblin come out. His next turn I block the piledriver and go down when he shows me goblin grenade. I stare hopelesly at Force and 2 nonblue in my hand.
G2 was naty one. I have UG Sea -> Duress. He shows me hand with Goblin Recruiter. on to G3...
G3 I get turn 2 Dreadnought and thats it.
2-1

R2 Faeries
G1 Turn 1 Duress him -> countered with FoW :really:, Turn 2 duress him -> spellstutter :really:, Turn 3 S&T -> Emrakul (didn't have force to back it up but my opponent was low on cards and I had other gas if it get countered too) and that is gg.
G2 He plays Standstill few turns later I break it with nought -> gg
2-0

R3 Uwbg Landstill
G1 I win with resolved S&T -> Emrakul after few 3 duress. He had only Spellsnare in hand at that point.
G2&3 were basically both the same. Hi gets to counter my rather slow starts and kills my emrakul with Diabolic edict (twice) and Wrath of god (once). I had to try desperate duress -> S&T -> Emrakuls in both games as he was drawing cards from his Standstills. Both times he was able to hide his emrakul kill with BS. Most notable of these games is that I actually get to attack with Emrakul in one of these games, Annihilator was stifled tough and he was left at 2 life before drawing the removal.
1-2

R4 Dredge
G1 These games were total blow outs. First game he mulligans to 4 and I FoW his discard. Mosswort -> emrakul at turn 3 kills him from 14 life. (He had taken damage from Citadel)
G2 He says the he don't really have any outs for my strategy except even faster clock. This proves to be false as he discards (Breakthrough) Angel of Despair. Good thing that I have force in my hand for the inevitable Dread Return. Altough he made a mistake when he discarded it as I win with S&T -> Emrakul.
2-0

Bonus Aggro loam
This was the guy who went 4-0 in the tournament.
G1 We both get fast starts but I get to annihilate him before it's too late. Would have died to his Knight of the reliquary unless I had a Wipe Away in my hand as he had 7 permanents to match my Annihilator 6
G2 He gets really fast start and kills me before I can do anything.
G3 This is where my Engineered Explosivesi (plural? :laugh:) really shone. He plays Mox Diamond Chalice@1. I go 2nd turn land EE@0 -> blow his board. He has a second Chalice but I have second EE in hand, lucky! He also casts LftL whitch I remove with Fearie Macabre. After screwing up his boar I EOT Lim-Dul to Force and S&T Emrakul the next turn.
After games he showed his singleton sided card in match up: Tariff.
2-1

All in all I was really suprised for the raw power of the deck. It can really punish slow starts and prey on unprepared opponents. If I had had the Form of the Dragon I could have won the landstill match too.

I'm carefully following this thread so if you have any question feel free to ask. Deck was a blast to play, thanks Nightmare!

kinda
07-04-2010, 08:49 PM
How has the zoo matchup been? I remember having a lot of difficulty not getting burned out when trying to build gu eureka/snt...

danyul
07-04-2010, 09:52 PM
R1 Goblins
He didn't have too tuned up list and he also said that he's coming back to game after few years brake.
G1 He plays and starts with turn 1 skirkprospektor. Turn 2 lotus petal -> Warchief. Turn 3 piledriver. I get a turn 3 S&T -> emrakul and he has some 2 power goblin come out. His next turn I block the piledriver and go down when he shows me goblin grenade. I stare hopelesly at Force and 2 nonblue in my hand.
G2 was naty one. I have UG Sea -> Duress. He shows me hand with Goblin Recruiter. on to G3...
G3 I get turn 2 Dreadnought and thats it.
2-1


Isn't Recruiter banned? Or was that a typo? Anyhow, nice report.

MMogg
07-04-2010, 10:06 PM
Isn't Recruiter banned? Or was that a typo? Anyhow, nice report.

Must be Ringleader.

Srovex
07-05-2010, 04:44 AM
No.. It was't ringleader... Duress suddenly got a "bit" better.

Duress B
Sorcery
You win the game.

thebigblue
07-07-2010, 08:13 AM
what about Sensei's Divining Top ?

as it is often played in ANT, i would like to add it.

Lim-Dûl's Vault in 4 slots seems me too much. never want to have the 2nd.
wipe away often does nothing interesting game1.

-1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
-1 wipe away

+2 Sensei's Divining Top

Nightmare
07-07-2010, 11:15 AM
LSV is playing this deck in the Daily Events; he's been experimenting with Worldly Tutor.

What do you think of Conley Woods's sideboard? Granted the metagame is different, but there were some interesting ideas there.
You probably don't need extra Form of the Dragons, since those were really an answer to Reanimator creature hate, which shouldn't be a problem. I think Deed is a good idea though.

Which cards do you consider cuttable post-board, and what sort of sideboard strategies would you pursue against the field?
Edit: In other words, in what matchups do you just try to jam the combo in, versus bringing in a lot of removal like Deed, etc.
We initially had Worldly Tutor in the list but as we developed the deck more, they were cut in favor of more LDVs. Its still not terrible, but the deck really hates cards that don't pitch to FOW and aren't huge guys.

My sideboard is currently
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
4 yard hate of choice
3 Krosan Grip

It doesn't really matter what yard hate you play since reanimator isn't as good anymore. I also found the Form tech to be exactly what you want to the point of the other creatures being unnecessary from the board. At this point, stopping hate is more relevant than toolbox answers to decks. Annihilator fixes all the other issues.

Generally speaking, the most frequent sideboard plan is to side out some ldvs some ponders, and some combination of stifle anx nought depending on number of cards coming in. This sacrifices some consistency of the combo in favor of disruption or protection.

Nightmare
07-07-2010, 11:20 AM
what about Sensei's Divining Top ?

as it is often played in ANT, i would like to add it.

Lim-Dûl's Vault in 4 slots seems me too much. never want to have the 2nd.
wipe away often does nothing interesting game1.

-1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
-1 wipe away

+2 Sensei's Divining Top
To someone who has only theorized with the list on paper and hasn't played it, wipe seems bad. As soon as you start playing the deck without it, you run into "I can't win" scenarios that would be solved with wipe in the deck. It is not cuttable. Its not even on the list of cards I'm willing to side out. It is absolutely needed both ore and post board.

Srovex
07-07-2010, 06:05 PM
At that last tournament I lost to few things.
First one of my game losses was against that sub-optimal goblins list. Altough I did win I won because I got lucky for he having a illeagal deck and bad list. Had the list been up to date I'm pretty sure it would be bad match-up. As we suffled for game three I was terrified to see a turn 1 lackey (luckily he didn't have it). This deck don't really have too many answers for it outside of force. If we have Form we can atleast race them.

Second loss for me, and my only match loss, was to Diabolic Edict (and huge pile of Counterspells). To be honest the edict was only the peak of the problems that begun with mishra beats, triky BS action dodging duress and standstills into more countemagic, but in the end we don't really care if it is curfew or edict. If it resolves we are toast.

One way to dodge these remnants of reanimator era is to trust on Form or adopt a little reanimator tech. Namely Dryad Arbor. It could come from side or we could run manabase like this:

3x UG Sea
3x Tropical
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
4x Mosswort
Dryad Arbor
3x Basics (Island + any combination Island/Forest/Swamp)

What do you think?
As a sidenote I'd love to have some Top's in but this deck is just so tight I don't know what to cut...

nodahero
07-07-2010, 11:39 PM
Nightmare: Could you please post a tenative sideboard plan for common decks? I really wana get into this deck but the list feels really interconnected and I have no idea what to cut for what...

lordofthepit
07-07-2010, 11:46 PM
This seems like a really powerful deck with a lot of versatility as well. I really like being able to pack in so much raw power (Emrakul, Dreadnought) with so much card searching power as well as protection.

That being said, what would you say are good matchups for Aeon Bridge (Nightmare's build)? What would you say are rough matchups? Are you able to "combo out" quickly against fast strategies like Zoo, Merfolk, or Goblins?

thebigblue
07-08-2010, 02:54 AM
Nightmare : "you run into "I can't win" scenarios that would be solved with wipe in the deck."

could you give examples of scenarios ?

i see humility, what else ?

cseraph
07-08-2010, 02:29 PM
I've been fairly impressed by this deck so far. Emrakul off Mossbridge is an improvement on Dreadnaught in that unlike naught by itself, most of the time when Emrakul comes in to play you actually do just win. Like, immediately.

On the other hand, hoping to mise Emrakul under the bridge seems a bit loose, and he's much less impressive off show and tell. Is see beyond really better than ponder, even though ponder lets you see and stack the emrakul?

Also, what hate cards would you say beat your deck? Karakas, Stingscourger, Humility... anything else?

Kuma
07-08-2010, 03:39 PM
To someone who has only theorized with the list on paper and hasn't played it, wipe seems bad. As soon as you start playing the deck without it, you run into "I can't win" scenarios that would be solved with wipe in the deck. It is not cuttable. Its not even on the list of cards I'm willing to side out. It is absolutely needed both ore and post board.

I've played Aeon Bridge in six or so tournaments, including a GPT, and I was only in one "I can't win" situation because I didn't run Wipe Away. That doesn't sound like a card that isn't cuttable. If you're going to run something for problem permanents, why not run a Krosan Grip instead? What creatures and lands do you have to be able to remove game one?


My sideboard is currently
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
4 yard hate of choice
3 Krosan Grip

Is Pernicious Deed a "catch all" for problem permanents? It seems way too slow to deal with aggro. With Krosan Grip, Duress, and Pithing Needle on't we have enough answers for hate?

Current list:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Mosswort Bridge

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Show and Tell

SB:

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Form of the Dragon
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
2 ???

I realized that Daze is terrible in a deck that wants three mana by turn three every game. It's also unreliable protection at best. I cut Dazes from my list for two Duress and a Bayou. The Bayou is awesome for playing a discard spell turn one, Worldly Tutor and Mosswort Bridge turn two, and comboing turn three.

Nightmare
07-10-2010, 12:28 AM
First off, sorry for the spotty replies. Work blocked the Source recently, so I'm usually posting from my phone, which is a pain in the ass. I'll do my best to deal with questions as they come, but you guys may have to help each other. I know.


I've played Aeon Bridge in six or so tournaments, including a GPT, and I was only in one "I can't win" situation because I didn't run Wipe Away. That doesn't sound like a card that isn't cuttable. If you're going to run something for problem permanents, why not run a Krosan Grip instead? What creatures and lands do you have to be able to remove game one?While I admit that its popularity is waning, Reanimator putting Blazing Archon into play either their natural way or via your S&T is good game without access to reactive answers from you. They may not be able to swing through your Emrakul, but you can't win if they don't mess up. This gives them all the time in the world to reanimate another guy. This has happened to me twice since playing the deck (in game 1) and I have won because of Wipe Away (or lost due to not finding it). It's also another answer to Karakas, should you need it. Post-board, most of the permanents you need to deal with are Ench/Arts, but that doesn't mean the card is worthless in the deck. As mentioned, Humility and Ensnaring Bridge are both issues that must be dealt with to win - although the more recent addition of Form does go part of the way to solving these as well.


Is Pernicious Deed a "catch all" for problem permanents? It seems way too slow to deal with aggro. With Krosan Grip, Duress, and Pithing Needle on't we have enough answers for hate?Deed is admittidly in the testing phase right now. I loved the card when I boarded it in Cephalid Breakfast and other similar combo decks, and I'd like to see it play in this deck as well. The creature package was underwhelming, so I'm playing with other options to see what works best.


I realized that Daze is terrible in a deck that wants three mana by turn three every game. It's also unreliable protection at best. I cut Dazes from my list for two Duress and a Bayou. The Bayou is awesome for playing a discard spell turn one, Worldly Tutor and Mosswort Bridge turn two, and comboing turn three.Daze is definitely the worst piece of protection, but it does buy you time against a lot of decks, and it is much better than Duress the turn you're casting S&T or Dreadnought. I'll try out your configuration, as its possible Daze isn't good enough, and I really like Duress from the board anyway. I've also been known to play Misdirection in those board slots, so that is a contender as well - against most decks, it's either a counter in a counter war, or a counter that trades two for two (removal spell+ their creature).

Kuma
07-10-2010, 11:41 AM
While I admit that its popularity is waning, Reanimator putting Blazing Archon into play either their natural way or via your S&T is good game without access to reactive answers from you. They may not be able to swing through your Emrakul, but you can't win if they don't mess up. This gives them all the time in the world to reanimate another guy. This has happened to me twice since playing the deck (in game 1) and I have won because of Wipe Away (or lost due to not finding it). It's also another answer to Karakas, should you need it. Post-board, most of the permanents you need to deal with are Ench/Arts, but that doesn't mean the card is worthless in the deck. As mentioned, Humility and Ensnaring Bridge are both issues that must be dealt with to win - although the more recent addition of Form does go part of the way to solving these as well.

Good point. I forgot about Blazing Archon. I'm still not convinced Wipe Away is worth the slot when Reanimator's popularity is waning, especially since it's harder for them to get the creature they want without Mystical Tutor. It does deal with Karakas, but unless 15 damage was enough to kill them, they'll play it and bounce Emrakul on their next turn. Then again, they probably won't be winning after annihilator 6 anyway.

Except for Blazing Archon, Form of the Dragon solves all these problems and more. That more than anything says Wipe Away isn't needed.


Deed is admittidly in the testing phase right now. I loved the card when I boarded it in Cephalid Breakfast and other similar combo decks, and I'd like to see it play in this deck as well. The creature package was underwhelming, so I'm playing with other options to see what works best.

Yeah, I loved boarding in Deed in Cephalid Breakfast too. It was great for hitting all those Needles/Crypts/hate bears/etc. Let me know how it works for you. I can't test it because I sold my Deeds. Although I can't imagine it will be, if it's great against Merfolk/Goblins I'll be thrilled.


Daze is definitely the worst piece of protection, but it does buy you time against a lot of decks, and it is much better than Duress the turn you're casting S&T or Dreadnought. I'll try out your configuration, as its possible Daze isn't good enough, and I really like Duress from the board anyway. I've also been known to play Misdirection in those board slots, so that is a contender as well - against most decks, it's either a counter in a counter war, or a counter that trades two for two (removal spell+ their creature).

Daze rarely buys time, since it puts you back a turn from being able to put an Emrakul on the battlefield. It's better the turn you cast Emrakul, sure, but I'd much rather do a turn one Duress, turn two cantrip/tutor + Mosswort Bridge, turn three Emrakul, than a turn one cantrip/tutor, turn two Mosswort Bridge, turn three Emrakul with Daze backup. Daze loses most of its power after turn two, and by turn four it's almost worthless unless your opponent is mana screwed.

I'd rather have Misdirection than Daze because it's a hard counter. However, sometimes it's too hard to sculpt a hand that can go off and Force/Misdirection in a timely manner.

nodahero
07-14-2010, 05:04 PM
So I have been actively testing this deck for Columbus (and also TES). One thing I have noted from testing (MWS is the only access to a "meta" I have) is that I must concur that Wipe Away really is useless.

Outside of the Blazing Archon Scenario I cannot find a single reason why I would want Wipe Away. If Karakas is a problem can't we just stifle the activation?

With the above in mind I would suggest adding either a Squelch or Trickbind in place of Wipe Away. They both act as Stifle #5 which I could see being handy in a variety of situations. You can work to hamper your opponents mana base, you can counter the storm triggers, you can protect your Nought from a Pride Mage and should you face the mirror you can counter your opponents Bridge activations (among other things).

Another thing I have noted is the weakness of Daze particularity on the draw. Would the inclusion of Inquisition be better? This way it allows you to "answer" your opponents 2 drop without hamstringing yourself and it also will provide information in the coming turns such as wether it would be safe to run a Nought with Stifle out.

Just a little food for thought. I look foreword to everyone's input.

PS Can we get a rules clarification on how removing a Nought from play in response to a Bridge of the Mosswort variety activation works? Does it essentially "fizzle".

sillysam71
07-16-2010, 04:39 PM
@nodahero: I like the idea of upping the stifle count with squelch or trickbind, but squelch only hits activated abilities and not triggered, so I think that it's out out of the question since it doesn't help dreadnought.

As for the trigger situation, I believe it's: You cast dreadnought. It resolves and enters the battlefield. Then the CIP ability triggers. You activate Bridge in response to the CIP ability. (Enter awesome bridged card) Dreadnought's ability resolves and since you did not sacrifice creatures, you must sacrifice the dreadnought. (Unless you decided to also stifle its ability)
No fizzling involved. Hope that answered your question.

sillysam71
07-16-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm pretty sure I misinterpreted your question.

I'm not possitive on the ruling, but I'm pretty sure that it just fizzles since it checks for the creature upon resolution. You leave the card under the bridge since you MAY play it IF you have the 10 power.

Anusien
07-16-2010, 05:13 PM
If you don't control creatures with total power 10 or greater when the ability resolves, you can't play the exiled card.

No_Life_No_Future
07-20-2010, 05:02 AM
Could Vesuva be a potential sb/mb card?

It could serve as extra bridges/mana source or another way to deal with karakas.

lordofthepit
07-20-2010, 05:23 AM
Could Vesuva be a potential sb/mb card?

It could serve as extra bridges/mana source or another way to deal with karakas.

Does it preserve come-into-play abilities like Hideaway?

No_Life_No_Future
07-20-2010, 06:22 AM
Does it preserve come-into-play abilities like Hideaway?

yes

Nightmare
07-22-2010, 07:08 PM
Update: I've been tweaking based on many comments I've received here and otherwise. I've come around on the Wipe Away issue, since Archon is really the only thing that Form doesn't solve. That doesn't mean it has no place post-board, because you'd still like to be able to handle any circumstance, but MD it isn't quite as essential as I had originally anticipated. The fact that you won't be playing vs. Reanimator every other round anymore is also helpful.

Second - Daze is underwhelming. Currently taking applications for better protection.

I have a new list with revamped everything, but I'm playing this weekend, so I'll be sure to update prior to the GP and after my own next event.

Aleksandr
07-23-2010, 09:48 AM
Second - Daze is underwhelming. Currently taking applications for better protection.



Spell Pierce?

kinda
07-23-2010, 10:40 AM
Lotus petal.

Kuma
07-23-2010, 12:49 PM
Second - Daze is underwhelming. Currently taking applications for better protection.

Duress and Misdirection.

Papeface
07-24-2010, 05:25 PM
singleton dryad arbor?

Fixes mana base issues and protects from edict effects.

Srovex
07-26-2010, 07:50 AM
Went 4-2 (9th place =E) on a bit larger (43 participants) tournament here in finland.

Here is my list:
4 Force of Will
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Forest
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
2 Duress
4 Lim-Dul’s Vault
1 Swamp
3 Ponder
4 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs

Side:
3 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wipe Away
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle

It is basically the same main that can be seen few pages back but -2x Worldy tutor +2x Engineered Explosives. I'm not really sure how much the change affected my games but EE wasn't helping me in the games I lost (both against Merfolk). This list probably need to replace at least 1 Island with Tropical, but as I only own one I ran only 1 + basic forest, It didn't matter all day though.

The sideboard looks kinda awkward and that might be because it is. It' definitely needs more dedicated merfolk hate.
I would have won one game if I had had the Dryad Arbor in main and I sided in once for G2&G3. But as it turned out it didn't matter at all in those games.
I won 2 games with resolved Iona.
I won 1 game with resolved Form of the Dragon (didn't get it out in merfolk games :frown: )
No action for Grave hate.

Short report for those who are interested:
M1: TES
G1: I won the roll and thoughtseize him revealing some rituals and ad nauseam. At this point I'm already grinning inside because I know I have this game already. I take ad nauseam and we both proceed to draw-go for few turns. He decides to break the stalemate and tries to go off but I have force so he fizzles. A turn later I get stifle-nought and punch him once. He's now in 4 life and casts Ad Nauseam hoping to hit burning wish and 0 cost acceleration but fails.
G2: I remember that I had slow hand but just enough disruption to get to turn 3 S&T -> Iona naming black.
2-0

M2: Merfolk
G1&G3: he has bunch of small guys, lords and vial to kill me before I can get anything relevant on board (Emrakul is a lousy blocker). I hate the Dazefish.
G2: I get one swing in with emrakul and he can still attack me to 1 before I get another swing. Really close game.
I'm not sure how much the Form would have helped here because he had some bounce for it. And I didn't have any protection for it. Couldn't go for it with Lim-dul's because I had so low life total. Maybe I should have risked it though.'
1-2

M3: CounterTop-Landstill-HelmLine mash-up.
G1&3 He has really slow clock so I can just sculpt my hand to have as much disruption as I need to go safely off (even trough couple of standstills).
G2 he overwhelms me with counterspells (and wipes emrakul once with Wrath of God) and kills me with Leyline+Helm
2-1

M4: Umm.. Not really sure what it was.. (saw wasteland, daze, Brainstorm and Mishra's factory during the games, So maybe it was landstill of some sort?) =D
G1: Fast Bridge -> Emrakul and my opponent scoops up his board in disgust =P
G2: I drop turn 1 forest (he had Mishras factory), turn 2 blind Bridge and get nought underneath, he wastes it. turn 3 blind bridge with Emrakul underneath, he wastes it. Turn 4 Lim-dul's into turn 5 S&T Emrakul. I had nought in my hand all the time so I could have casted anything from the blind bridges. Hooray for monogreen Emrakul! Also I was biting wastes with the bridges to have blue source for the S&T. Luckily it all went down as I expected. =D
2-0

M5: Merfolk
G1&G2: He gets fast beats and I cant do basically anything relevant.
0-2

M6: Pox
G1: I make stupid error of not destroying his Rack (with EE) before attacking in with Emrakul. This lets him sacrifice everything except his tombstalker and swing in. After that he Innocent bloods the board clean and I was on 1 life...
G2: I drop fast Iona naming black. He stares at my Beatstick for 3 more turns.
G3: He gets out Noetic Scales(!), I countered the first one so maybe he thought that it would matter but it didn't as I payd 7 life to dig for Form of the dragon. S&T resolved text turn and I draw 4 and watched he squirm for his turns. Later we discussed and his only out was to have some combination of Pox and Smallpox in the same turn to kill me straight from the replenishing 5 life. Also it's worth noting that Form stops The Rack bleeding quite nicely. He was also sad that he didn't save the Noetic scales for S&T, I agree as I would have probably gone for Iona again if I hadn't seen it before.



As for now I'd like to discuss your game plan and sideboard strategies against merfolk, as it really seems to be really bad match up for us.

thebigblue
07-27-2010, 08:08 AM
i don't understand why you play Dryad Arbor. Could you explain ?

against merfolk, what do you think about Llawan, Cephalid Empress ?

Llawan, Cephalid Empress + pithing needle seems very good against merfolk.

GrooGrux
07-27-2010, 08:14 AM
singleton dryad arbor?

Fixes mana base issues and protects from edict effects.

This is a great idea...

Except, it actually weakens your mana base. If you draw this opening hand, it could cost you the game. Dryad, go, swords, go could be a disaster. Basically, if you open grip this land, you can't count it as a land.

Papeface
07-27-2010, 10:23 AM
This is a great idea...

Except, it actually weakens your mana base. If you draw this opening hand, it could cost you the game. Dryad, go, swords, go could be a disaster. Basically, if you open grip this land, you can't count it as a land.

Well i mean i would hope you didnt keep a hand with just a dryad arbor as your only land in this deck...and it could very well go in the sb, i neve rsaid just md.

thebigblue
07-27-2010, 06:28 PM
instead of dyrad arbour, i think a 2nd form of the dragon is better.

can decks with edicts effects destroy form of the dragon ?

what do you think about this ?

Nightmare
07-28-2010, 06:34 AM
FYI - my newest list:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Duress
1 Misdirection

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Pernicious Deed

I hate deed. I want to run Goyf in the board. Thopter/Sword is something I came up with just prior to Eli's last event and it won a round by itself. It was awesome.

thebigblue
07-28-2010, 10:11 AM
when do you use the thopter combo ?
why do you hate deed ?

thanks in advance for your answers

nodahero
07-28-2010, 05:46 PM
I think Deed is terrible because it dosn't really protect the combo in an way and is often to slow to be a controlled wrath effect.... As for when you bring in the combo... I would wager against Karakas or its ilk... Though that is a guess. Nightmare... your answers?

zeratul734
07-28-2010, 10:20 PM
I've been having an awful experience with deed also. After extensively playing the deck i have to agree with everyone else that daze is simply awful.

Does anyone else think that 4x emrakul is too many? I never have a problem finding it, and often end up with multiple copies in my hand. I've been running 3 with no issues.

Would it be beneficial to run more copies of the thoptersword combo pieces rather than goyf in the deed slot?

Thanks.

Nightmare
07-29-2010, 06:44 AM
Deed is bad because it's slow and doesn't actually do what you want it to, which is slow down aggro. It's a turn 4 Wrath (sometimes), but it never actually works out that way. All you really want is time, and Deed isn't as good at doing that as I'd hoped.

I want Goyf because I'm looking into alternate paths to victory that don't work the same way as the Emrakul win. This is based largely on the experiences with Thopter Sword. Attacking from different directions or angles is good. Goyf would allow you to whittle life away while setting up the rest of the combo which would be great post-board when their hate is more directed at your spells.

The Thopter Sword combo comes in against control and aggro decks, since it's equally good in both of those matchups. If your Sword is in the yard, don't forget that Dreadnought is an artifact, and a great way to start the combo.

Atwa
07-29-2010, 07:58 AM
If you want to buy time against Aggro and Deed isn't fitting in that role, would you consider cards like Propaganda and Elephant Grass in those spots?

slaughtercult
08-02-2010, 03:59 AM
If you want to buy time against Aggro and Deed isn't fitting in that role, would you consider cards like Propaganda and Elephant Grass in those spots?

i think elephant grass would be great here, it is cost effective and stalls long enough to get your combo pieces ready. propaganda in my opinion may be too slow.

NesretepNoj
08-15-2010, 11:45 AM
Have been testing Nightmare's latest list the last two days. I've found that getting the primary combo (Bridge+Nought into Emrakul) working against FaeStalker, is nearly impossible. Having both Stifle + Waste for the bridge coupled with 12 counters and Terminate for the Nought gives the deck a really hard time. That being said, the matchup is not unwinnable, as the Show and Tell plan is much easier to get through with the help of discard. Although untested, I would imagine the same goes for decks like Team America and Canadian Threshold, with the latter of course not being able to kill the Nought once resolved (except for bounce).

I know neither of the aformentioned decks is tier one, but they definitely show up once in a while.

Am I completely wrong or is it just my lack of play skills? Any thoughts?

On a site note, a friend of mine played the deck to a second place in a 28-man tournament last saturday (his list will be on deckcheck.net as soon as they update the site). I will play the deck on wednesday and think I will do just fine. With both Michael Pozsgay and Conley Woods picking up the deck and doing quite okay, maybe this should be moved to established?

mistervader
08-15-2010, 11:09 PM
I ran this list last Sunday, and I will readily admit my sideboard was meh and could've used a lot of work...

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Form of the Dragon
2 Duress
2 Worldly Tutor


3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Mosswort Bridge
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trickbind
1 Duress
1 Misdirection
1 Wipe Away
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria

My only losses were to Zoo (both in Swiss and top 8) due to not assembling the combo before I get burned out, and Merfolk, who shocked me with a Gilded Drake trading places with my Emrakul. :(

Anyways, how do you guys normally board out? I normally find it hard to board cards out, even though I generally know what I want to bring in against most matchups. The Dredge MU is obvious: -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Yard Hate, but in general, what do you take out against the other matches? Boarding against Zoo and Merfolks have proven to be difficult for me.

I currently am a fan of the Petals, but I'm thinking you either run 2 or 4, but not 3. You either want it all the time, or want it only occasionally for the first-turn boosts you can get. 3 copies is that awkward position between those two possibilities, so I feel that maybe cutting a Petal would be nice, but I don't know if I should add another land, or just more goodies.

Is running 4 Ponder really that much better than running Worldly Tutor? I tend to like the inevitability of Worldly Tutor in getting your combo going if you have either Stifle, Show and Tell, or Mosswort in your hand. That's not a shabby 12 cards to toy with right there.

Anyways, the tournament turnout was 36 players, I got 4-2, beating ANT, Merfolk, Stiflenaught, and Affinity along the way. Most of my wins were fairly rote. I won twice via Stiflenaught, once via Form of the Dragon, thrice via Mossworting into Emrakul/Iona, and the rest of the wins were Show and Tell into Emrakul.

perm
08-16-2010, 02:00 AM
gonna suggest duress as a 4 of, and then either 2 inquisition or 2 counters

mistervader
08-16-2010, 10:12 PM
Since you're not paying half your life in one go (like Doomsday or Reanimator), I infinitely prefer Thoughtseize to Duress in every single matchup except Zoo or Burn. Inquisition of Kozilek has been tested, and the fact you can't take out FOW is terrible. You can't always be hoping that the only card they have costing 4 or more is a *solitary* FOW. There will be situations where they are holding two, and there go your best-laid plans.

I don't see any reason to go below 10 disruption slots for this deck: 4 FOW, 4 Duress effects, 2-4 other slots that counter or discard.

Right now, I'm sold on Lotus Petal. Just need to determine exactly how many slots I should devote to it.

Bardo
08-16-2010, 11:59 PM
Moved to Established.

Tokobotenkai
08-17-2010, 12:22 PM
Hey guys, new to this deck.

Have you guys considered preordain vs ponder?

Also, any MU data (i.e. with boarding in) against majority of the top tier decks? I.e. TES, Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins etc

How's the current deck power compared to the dream halls, the current reanimator and even merfolk?

Looks as fun as the reanimator post mystical banning :p

EDIT: I'm thinking of trying something like this:

// 20 Lands
4 Mosswort Bridge
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Forest

// 8 Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Other Spells
4 Show and Tell
1 Form of the Dragon
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

What do you guys think?

mistervader
08-18-2010, 07:55 AM
Well, Ponder seems significantly better in terms of digging deep, as it can dig potentially 4 cards deep, and that's the main reason you want to Ponder, aside from the fact that you want the option of keeping critters on top of the deck, which Preordain would have a harder time doing, since you only see two cards as opposed to three.

I'd personally test it, but I have a strong feeling that Ponder would edge it out in terms of utility.

Tokobotenkai
08-18-2010, 10:11 AM
Well, Ponder seems significantly better in terms of digging deep, as it can dig potentially 4 cards deep, and that's the main reason you want to Ponder, aside from the fact that you want the option of keeping critters on top of the deck, which Preordain would have a harder time doing, since you only see two cards as opposed to three.

I'd personally test it, but I have a strong feeling that Ponder would edge it out in terms of utility.

What's your thoughts on lotus petal? (from your prior post)

I could see it used similarly to the pre banning reanimator (Practical's version) where you get the combo out asap.

mistervader
08-19-2010, 12:25 AM
What's your thoughts on lotus petal? (from your prior post)

I could see it used similarly to the pre banning reanimator (Practical's version) where you get the combo out asap.

I'm still stuck at 3, because I don't know if I should move up or down a slot on the card.

I *really* like Lotus Petal. It has allowed me to do a first-turn Stiflenaught against Merfolk that has won me the game in the last tournament, among other neat little plays, and also powers out Show And Tell a turn sooner.

While Petal is great, I don't know if I want to decimate some of my manabase for it, which is why in my decklist, I couldn't go with the full set of 4. You're not a fast combo deck, so while the speed is nice, it's not the be-all end-all, especially since you want a bit of stability to get you by in the form of more lands that are fetchable.

This is why I considered going down to 2 copies. However, I don't know if that one slot should become a business card or another land/fetchland. As such, I've been stuck with 3 Petals for a while, since I don't quite know where to take it, but at the moment, I'm considering cutting the Bayou in favor of a fourth Petal.

NesretepNoj
08-19-2010, 05:57 PM
Today I got an odd idea. It probably wouln't work or be any good, but I just feel like I have to share it in case there's actually something to it.

This deck could actually add Protean Hulk. If you put the hulk under the Bridge, cast Nought, activate Bridge and sac both creatures to the Nought, you get to abuse the Hulk (Flash Hulk style).

This gives some options. The deck could pack the classic hulk-combo package (Carrion Feeder, Reveillark, Bile Urchin, Body Double) and just win. There are obvious reasons, why this is sub-optimal compared to Emrakul. It takes up four extra slots, the cards are bad on their own and it makes Show and Tell almost useless (if we cut the Emrakuls in favor of combo pieces). One way to correct this, would be to change Thoughtseize to Cabal Therapy, which gives another way to kill the Hulk. I'm still not saying this is better, than the Emrakul kill, I'm just sharing some thoughts.

Another option is to take advantage of the fact, that the deck already packs Noughts. Instead of packing the classic combo-package, you could fetch up something like two Nougts, two Sylvan Safekeepers. The one Noughts sac the other one, and the Safekeepers can protect it. This even leaves 2-3 open fetch slots (maye something giving haste or a Fling-effect).

I haven't tested any of the suggestions, I just wan't to hear your opinions on this. Is there something to it, or is it just jank/danger of cool things?

--- --- --- --- ---

On a more related note, I took the deck to my local game shop yesterday (without much testing pre-board and absolutely no testing post-board). I played Nightmare's list except, that I moved the Form of the Dragon to the sideboard in favor of a second Misdirection (which had proven to be good in my minimal testing). My sideboard was:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Form of the Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap

I went 2-2 gaining a first round bye.

I start off losing a close battle 1-2 against Ubgw Landstill. Not considering him playing Innocent Blood, I get to resolve a SnT (Emrakul). He puts down Pernicious Deed (shutting of future Noughts), plays Blood the following turn and puts down Standstill. In game two I SnT a FotD and he scoops. In game three I get to time walk in an late Emrakul, but he has seven permanents, I'm at two and he has a Meddling Mage (naming SnT).

I then proceed to beat UWr Landstill 2-0. I discard his Swords to Plowshares and counters, and Bridge in Emrakul turn four, GG. In G2 I SnT in a FotD; he puts down humility but Oblivion Ring my FotD on his turn. Luckily I have the Krosan Grip EOT and win.

In round four, I lose 0-2 against LEDless Dredge. Game one he just races me and game two I lose to Cabal Therapy coupled with Ancient Grudge.

All in all I really like this deck and is looking foreward to testing a lot more. I definitely feel there's some power to it :)

Kuma
08-19-2010, 07:52 PM
Hulk combo takes more slots, and isn't any better at winning the game than Emrakul. Also, Show and Telling a Hulk is weaksauce.

kinda
08-19-2010, 08:03 PM
Today I got an odd idea. It probably wouln't work or be any good, but I just feel like I have to share it in case there's actually something to it.

This deck could actually add Protean Hulk. If you put the hulk under the Bridge, cast Nought, activate Bridge and sac both creatures to the Nought, you get to abuse the Hulk (Flash Hulk style).

This gives some options. The deck could pack the classic hulk-combo package (Carrion Feeder, Reveillark, Bile Urchin, Body Double) and just win. There are obvious reasons, why this is sub-optimal compared to Emrakul. It takes up four extra slots, the cards are bad on their own and it makes Show and Tell almost useless (if we cut the Emrakuls in favor of combo pieces). One way to correct this, would be to change Thoughtseize to Cabal Therapy, which gives another way to kill the Hulk. I'm still not saying this is better, than the Emrakul kill, I'm just sharing some thoughts.

Another option is to take advantage of the fact, that the deck already packs Noughts. Instead of packing the classic combo-package, you could fetch up something like two Nougts, two Sylvan Safekeepers. The one Noughts sac the other one, and the Safekeepers can protect it. This even leaves 2-3 open fetch slots (maye something giving haste or a Fling-effect).

I haven't tested any of the suggestions, I just wan't to hear your opinions on this. Is there something to it, or is it just jank/danger of cool things?

--- --- --- --- ---

On a more related note, I took the deck to my local game shop yesterday (without much testing pre-board and absolutely no testing post-board). I played Nightmare's list except, that I moved the Form of the Dragon to the sideboard in favor of a second Misdirection (which had proven to be good in my minimal testing). My sideboard was:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Form of the Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap

I went 2-2 gaining a first round bye.

I start off losing a close battle 1-2 against Ubgw Landstill. Not considering him playing Innocent Blood, I get to resolve a SnT (Emrakul). He puts down Pernicious Deed (shutting of future Noughts), plays Blood the following turn and puts down Standstill. In game two I SnT a FotD and he scoops. In game three I get to time walk in an late Emrakul, but he has seven permanents, I'm at two and he has a Meddling Mage (naming SnT).

I then proceed to beat UWr Landstill 2-0. I discard his Swords to Plowshares and counters, and Bridge in Emrakul turn four, GG. In G2 I SnT in a FotD; he puts down humility but Oblivion Ring my FotD on his turn. Luckily I have the Krosan Grip EOT and win.

In round four, I lose 0-2 against LEDless Dredge. Game one he just races me and game two I lose to Cabal Therapy coupled with Ancient Grudge.

All in all I really like this deck and is looking foreward to testing a lot more. I definitely feel there's some power to it :)

That was done a while ago...on this forum actually. It won some deckbuilding contest...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8261-%5BCaNG-WINNER!%5D-MossNought

nodahero
08-19-2010, 10:14 PM
That deck was actually the predecessor to this deck. Also I concur with the weak sauce status of running Hulk.

kicks_422
08-19-2010, 10:23 PM
If I recall correctly, the kill for MossNought used some sort of Dracoplasm combo. So, yeah, stick to Emrakul.

NesretepNoj
08-20-2010, 01:10 AM
That was done a while ago...on this forum actually. It won some deckbuilding contest...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8261-%5BCaNG-WINNER!%5D-MossNought

Okay, at least there WAS something to it ... I'll just stick with Emrakul -- sorry for the wasted forum space :smile:

mistervader
09-10-2010, 11:41 PM
So... does anyone have a basic guide as to what you board in and board out during specific matches? I'm especially curious what you do during the Merfolk and Zoo matchup, particularly since boarding in the Thopter combo on top of other board cards seems pretty slot-intensive.

bruizar
09-11-2010, 06:30 AM
I´ve been having a hard time with this deck. The set up is pretty hard and Mosswort Bridge comes into play tapped. That said, I was rather happy with my sideboard the last match I played.

I ran

2 Elephant Grass
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tormod´s Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Massacre
2 Krosan Grip

The Elephant Grass's in particular won me a couple of games. The Maelstrom Pulses helped me out as well (I couldn't find pernicious deeds, but these were still good)

Srovex
09-12-2010, 03:17 PM
To breathe some new air to the thread I'll post some results. Went 4 - 1 - 1 (ID) in 46man tournament and lost in top8 in quartes. I was 6th overall.

R1: Merfolk
Won 2-0
Last game involved one of the coolest plays in my tournament. I stifled his Coralhelm Commanders level up to live at 1 life. Then proceed to cast S&T -> Form and then winning few turns later after decimating his side of the board.

R2: Bant survival
Lost 0-2
This guy ended up in top8
Game 1 he stole my Dreadnought with topdecked Sower of Temptation..

R3: Dredge
Won 2-0
What can I say... this match is like a bye if they don't have any nasty responses to S&T like Terastodon or angel of despair.

R4: Dragon stompy
Won 2-1
One of the top moments of this match was him mulliganing to 5 and me keeping hand with 3 FoW and 2 blue cards. ouch...
In fact I saw 3 fow in each game I won.

R5: Merfolk
Won 2-1
The player was good and each game was really close. I won last game with combined attack of dreadnought and emrakul. If he had drawn LoA I would have lost.

R6: ID

top8: Merfolk
match was 1-1 and I FoWed a divert on my thoughtseize even tough I had the mana to pay for it... I also stacked my brainstorm in wrong way and my opponent topdecked a C.Commander turn before I got Form of the dragon online. After this streak of misplays I deserved to get kicked out of competition and lost my changes to get some juicy duals. Atleast got some draftsets. darn.
Lost 1-2
For anyone interessed here is my list:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Duress
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
1 Form of the Dragon

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Mosswort Bridge

SB:
1 Dryad Arbor <- against decks with Innocent blood or Curfew type effects. Never had a chance to use. Mainly because I have yet to play against a deck to play with these cards.
3 Tormod's Crypt <- Obligatory gravehate of choice. 0cc goodness.
3 Pithing Needle <- Great but I don't feel it should be 4-of. Comments?
3 Krosan Grip <- Great but I don't feel it should be 4-of. Comments?
1 Wipe Away <- Never used so it's up to debate.
1 Form of the Dragon <- great when tryin to fend off land based offences with little burn and no MD enchantment removal. Namely Merfolk and Dredge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria <- never used. Is here mainly for burn/mono black where she just blows them out.
1 Trickbind <- never used, not sure where I would need it.. Up to debate.
1 Relic of Progenitus <- to have some variety in my gravehate

btw. As you can see I won 2/3 of my Merfolk matches and almost won the third. My side plan was:
-1x Emrakul
-3x some combination of ponder and duress (usually 2x ponder 1x duress. I really like to see their hand before trying to go off)

+1x FotD
+3x Pithing Needle (for vial and waste obv. had one for mutavault too)

Usually when I won the game dragged long and I could negate alot of their cards by just having enough mana to pay for cursecatcher, daze or spell pierce. To work this strategy needed some aggressive thougtseizing and FoWing. It also helps if you are adept at suffling your opponents deck and at die rolling.

NesretepNoj
09-13-2010, 05:53 PM
@Srovex: I like your build. I've got to test Lotus Petals my self. I guess, they are great coupled with Brainstorm and especially LDV revealing a pile consisting of both BS and LP. I guess, it is because of the petals you're running 6 discard spells over eg. Misdirection, Spell Pierce or Daze? Have you ever missed the third or fouth Ponder? I like the idea behind the single Dryad Abor in the sideboard as well, even though it's a bit narrow.

Don't you ever have manabase consistency problems? I only run 2 islands and 1 swamp and I'm considering dropping basics entirely (Petals of course helps here).

kilukru
09-14-2010, 11:20 AM
So, I've been packing up on store credit lately so I'm looking for a new deck to build and i think it will be this one, look fun, competitive and people wont really expect it, even if wasteland is everywhere in my meta.

One question, most people seem to look for a good answers for decks like merfolk and aggro in general, has anyone tried the perish/E.plague combination in the board?

Something like :

3x Perish
3x E.Plague
3x Pithing needle
1x Iona
1x Form of the Dragon
3x Grave hate (your choice)
1x Krosan Grip

Against Merfolk/Goblin you get E.plague+FotD
Against Zoo it's Perish+FotD

Thoughts?

mistervader
09-18-2010, 09:11 AM
Just won a pre-release pass with the deck today. It was a pretty small tourney, though, and I was exceptionally lucky because out of 4 rounds, 3 of them were rounds that were FOW-free.

A brief report:

Round 1, versus Merfolk

Game 1: Merfolk got the drop on me after hitting Wasteland on my Sea, and me never finding an Island until turn 6.
Game 2: I was trying to assemble S and T into Emrakul. He countered my Lim Dul's Vault then never looked back while his Mutavaults beat me down.

Round 2, versus Survival Rock

Game 1: I hit Show and Tell on turn 2 because of a Petal. He had nothing.
Game 2: On turn 2, I Lim Dul's Vault for Form of the Dragon, as I was already holding S and T. I guessed right, because when I played S and T, he played Bone Shredder. I won via Form Burn 4 turns later.

Round 3, versus Rock

Game 1: I Stiflenought then play Form of the Dragon under Mosswort Bridge around turn 5. He has 2 confidants and a Goyf who will go lethal in two turns. He managed to Smother the Nought, but the Form took me the rest of the way.
Game 2: I managed to hide Emrakul under a Mosswort Bridge, and was waiting to untap next turn with Dreadnought in hand, along with LDV. He Hymns me. I LDV for another Nought on the topdeck. I win the turn afterwards.

Round 4, versus Zoo

Game 1: I LDV for a 3rd turn Show and Tell into Emrakul.
Game 2: Thanks to Petal, I Show and Tell Emrakul on the 2nd turn.

Looks like Mosswort worked for me only twice. All my other wins were S and T related.

To those who run the Thopter combo, what do you normally board out to support them, on top of the other board cards you side in for the matchup? Furthermore, does your overall gameplan change drastically when you try to assemble the Thopter combo? Or do you just assemble it only when you chance upon the pieces, but not actively search for them?

Lastly, after so many games, I have realized that I *seriously* want 4 Lotus Petals there. They have proven their worth for me, as they have allowed me to S and T before my opponent's good and ready for it. As such, what would you suggest I cut? I'm tempted to cut 4 Ponders, replace them with 2 Petals and 2 Worldly Tutors, but that's neither here nor there for me. Any other thoughts? Since majority of my wins were brought to me by S and T, it makes all the sense in the world to run 4 Petals.

Here's the list I'm running today, though, which I tweaked from yesterday's list in anticipation of today's bigger tournament...

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Emrakul
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Form of the Dragon

4 Force Of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
1 Thoughtseize

4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Show and Tell
4 Stifle

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

I decided on running Sphinx instead of Archon solely because I stopped caring about the Reanimator matchup. Sphinx plays nice with Gobs, does decently against Merfolk, and gives Zoo more fits than would Archon. If I ever end up missing Archon, I'd let you know.

Learnings from this tournament (I top 4'd in a pool of 30.):

- The Foundry combo is slooooooowwww. And I already run Petals.
- Sphinx is cool in matchups where it's relevant.
- I should turn all my 'yard hate into Extirpate just to hit Vengevine.
- 3-4 Petals is pretty important.

Tokobotenkai
09-22-2010, 11:07 AM
@mistervader: Long time since I read the thread.

How are the MUs like now, any descriptions?

How is the deck's (current build) consistency working out?

mistervader
09-26-2010, 12:36 AM
@Bruizar: I think Maelstrom is better than Deed for our purposes, TBH. You wanna destroy stuff *now*, not wait for the right moment to do so.


@Tokobotenkai: Well, my meta has next to zero combo, so I can't comment on that matchup, but what I noticed is that the deck consistently assembles its two-card combos within three turns: a Stiflenaught or an S and T + Target.

Mossworting stuff is a different story, though.

In all the matches I played, you have a sense of inevitability against any deck out there except Merfolk and Vengevine Survival (provided they run counters). I was not pleased by the Thopter combo in the board, as I felt it was way too slow to assemble, and didn't really help too much against any matchup except Zoo, which you already do well against, provided you combo out before turn 4.

So ultimately, I feel the deck *is* consistent, but Mosswort is only the sideplan, even if it's the best one at winning the game outright. S and T into Emrakul/Dragon is plan A, Stiflenaught is Plan B, and Mosswort is plan C.

As for matchups, I'd describe them as thus:

1. Rock - Favorable because you can BS your combo pieces on top of the deck when they hit you for discard. Show and Tell gets them with ease, especially with 3-4 Lotus Petals.

2. Zoo - Favorable on the play. On the draw, you have to hope to Petal into S and T, or else it might be too late for turn 3 S and T as it's their turn 4 already by then. Stiflenaught isn't bad, either. If they PTE it, you get to ramp into S and T a lot quicker. Sphinx is awesome here from the board. One swing is all you need to turn things around, and it's easy enough to protect the Sphinx since they can only PtE/STP it, but not hit it with Pridemage. Overall, even if they can win the MU, most Zoo players in my meta are afraid of my deck, so I utilize the psychological advantage whenever I can.

3. Bant - Decent matchup because your clock is better, unless they NO. Sphinx is actually great here, too. I raced Progenitus in game 2 against NO Bant, thanks to Sphinx.

4. Vengevine - Ugh. Just ugh. This is why I believe 4x Extirpate in the board is the way to go. Pithing Needle is nice, too, but Extirpate just settles the Vengevine problem once and for all. It's worse when they have permission on top of the Survival engine, although two of the decks I played against were Rock Survival decks, not Bant, so it was more manageable.

5. Landstill - They're way too slow, so I was never afraid of Standstill at all. I just fetched out basics, then TS'd away stuff. Their clock is abysmal. I actually assembled Mosswort against the Standstill MU twice in as many games with impunity.

6. Gobs - It's a race, but if I were you, I'd make sure to not let in two critters: Lackey and Piledriver. Anything else is manageable. The second Form from the board really helps out in this MU, as it's safer than Emrakul, given how quickly Goblins can multiply.

7. Ichorid - Manageable, as long as you assemble your combo first. Shouldn't be too hard, and TS actually helps you against them, as it keeps them off of Careful Study/Breakthrough/Discard outlet critter.

8. Faeries - Haven't played this MU yet, but I'd imagine it'd be about as difficult as the Merfolk MU, especially since they'd run Sowers and the like.

9. Merfolk - Your absolute worst MU in my meta. Every single time I S and T'd into Emrakul, I wished it were Form. The deck is that fast, and Emrakul can't block islandwalking Merfolk, thereby assuring you that on their turn 4 (assuming you're on the play, and they thwarted your first S and T attempt), you'd probably be staring down four creatures of 3-4 power each, swinging at you.

In my meta, here are decks I've never encountered or seen, so I can't chime in on the MU: White Stax, Dragon Stompy, Thresh.

Here are decks I've seen or encountered, but not enough to form a good opinion: Enchantress, Ad Nauseam (He held AN in hand both games when I TS'd him on my first turn.).

RexFTW
09-28-2010, 06:39 PM
Interesting matchup sidenote: you are immune to any milling strategies game 1 with emrakul in your deck.

Also, this deck plays well as a control deck that has a combo finish. That is, you do not need to win on turn 3. You can easily stall the game out to turn 10 against most decks.

With 8 counterspells and 5 discard spells and stifles maindeck you should be able to slow them down considerably. Also, you can easily board in Pernicious Deed, Mind Harness, LLawan or E. Plague from the board in the agro match ups for additional control.

I recommend Birds of Paradise instead of lotus petal.

mistervader
09-29-2010, 11:39 PM
A fair point RE: Birds. I'll look into it, although it removes the potential for first-turn Stiflenaughts.

Just to be clear, though, Daze isn't in the deck anymore, so we only run 4 Counters, 5-6 Duress effects, 0-1 MisD now. You can control to an extent, but not as much as you'd want to.

As a note, Stifle is devastating against Zoo. Each turn they are off two mana on board is a Time Walk for you.

Vacrix
09-30-2010, 12:27 AM
Interesting matchup sidenote: you are immune to any milling strategies game 1 with emrakul in your deck.
Interesting matchup sidenote: Solidarity has a milling strategy, and it laughs at Emrakul.

Anusien
10-01-2010, 05:05 PM
Is Form of the Dragon still any good, at least in the maindeck? The beatdown decks all have pretty easy ways to bust through it and kill you. Conley said he originally added it to beat Reanimator hate like Edicts and Karakas, and those seem far less widespread. So when do you want it?

mistervader
10-02-2010, 02:19 PM
I want it against Merfolk and Gobs. I've won more than enough games off the back of Form, so I don't regret having it in the maindeck at all, since Merfolk is my main mismatch, and having a nice answer to it in Game 1 isn't such a bad thing at all.

Having said that, if Merfolk isn't that big a threat to you, then maybe the Form could be the fourth Petal slot we've all been looking for.

Anusien
10-03-2010, 03:48 PM
Coralhelm Commander laughs at Form of the Dragon. So does Siege-Gang Commander.

I think it may be a fine sideboard card against hate, but I don't think it belongs main.

Kuma
10-03-2010, 04:48 PM
Coralhelm Commander laughs at Form of the Dragon. So does Siege-Gang Commander.

I think it may be a fine sideboard card against hate, but I don't think it belongs main.

In order for Seige-Gang Commander to kill you, they need six mana. Also, Seige-Gang Commander needs to be on the battlefield when Form of the Dragon hits, or they need to be able to put it onto the battlefield and have six mana without the use of Lackey/Instigator. Otherwise, you can use your first Form of the Dragon trigger to kill Seige-Gang Commander.

As for Coralhelm Commander, he needs to be fully leveled, not sick, and pumped by another lord to kill you. If he isn't, you can kill him with Form of the Dragon.

Seige-Gang Commander and Coralhelm Commander can kill you with Form of the Dragon out, but to say they laugh at Form of the Dragon vastly overestimates their worth.

mistervader
10-03-2010, 11:28 PM
Top 8'd again in a 20++ tourney, and here are a few notes:

1. I took my own advice and sent Form of the Dragon to the sideboard, and put in a fourth Lotus Petal. I will explain why I did this in a bit.

2. My sideboard looked like this:

4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

I didn't face off against Zoo at all this time, so the Sphinx never came into play. Explosives was good, but I still found it too slow. I might replace the Sphinx and the Explosives, and I really want a Wipe Away in the board. More often than not, my opponent has 7 perms in play, and bouncing one away would just solve all my problems for when Emrakul annihilates the board.

3. Four Petals was awesome. My only loss in swiss was to Soul Sisters, which caught me by surprise, and Emrakul didn't come out quickly enough. In the top 8, I lost to Merfolk because I was down to 2 and he had seven permanents in play, including a bunch of 2-power critters. I had to Show and Tell Form in game 2 to force a third game, but he was holding Gilded Drake (grumble), and that was all she wrote. I did beat another Merfolk deck, though, and it came from Petals putting in S and T ahead of schedule. First-turn Stiflenaught has also happened for me about four times during matches. Overall, I did not miss Form of the Dragon, because the speed I was afforded by four Petals really pushed me into the thick of things at all times.

4. I will test 4 Birds of Paradise in the Petal slot. The reason is twofold: I want a stable mana ramp rather than Petal, and I want Edict fodder. The only thing you really give up is a first-turn Dreadnaught/S and T, but you still get your second-turn S and T. It seems worth testing, at the least.

5. Matchups: Soul Sisters (1-2), White Stax (2-1), Dredge (2-1), Merfolk (2-0), Sligh (ID). Then the other Merfolk deck snagged me in two.

RexFTW
10-04-2010, 04:16 PM
Interesting matchup sidenote: Solidarity has a milling strategy, and it laughs at Emrakul.
Interesting side note, I have been playing legacy for the last two years without seeing anyone playing solidarity much less having played against it.

Go troll your own thread plz. Leave the rest alone.

mistervader
10-07-2010, 05:15 AM
Quite frankly, I don't see how Solidarity could realistically beat Aeon Bridge if Bridge does what it normally does: get Emrakul on the table within three turns.

Solidarity normally needs about four turns to set up, and to keep them off that, you have 5 Duress effects and 5 FOW-ish effects in your deck on top of their worries over you assembling your own combo.

I think that combo isn't the matchup to worry about for Aeon Bridge.

I have another tournament this Sunday in Legacy, but I doubt I'd be able to give a mini-report since I have a feeling I'm gonna be playing Storm (Which is the archetype I'm known for in Vintage.) instead.

NesretepNoj
10-13-2010, 05:16 PM
Won a local 22-man tournament tonight. Ran a modified version of Srovex' deck:

4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Show and Tell
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
1x Duress

3x Lotus Petal
4x Mosswort Bridge
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
---
3x Krosan Grip
2x Form of the Dragon
2x Pithing Needle
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Relic of Progenitus


VS. UGr Canadian Threshold: 2-1
VS. UGw CounterTop Bant: 2-0
VS. Mono Red Sligh: 2-0
VS. BW Control: 2-1

I don't like FoTD main, so I moved it to the sideboard. My meta don't feature a lot of graveyard-dependent decks, so I left the yard-hate at home. Lotus Petal is just awesome and wins games against waste/port/stifle/sinkhole and helps beating daze.

addaro
10-31-2010, 02:30 PM
So I bought all the cards and Im slowly preparing for my first tournaments with this deck. But I have slight problems with manabase and sideboarding. What is everyones opinion about mana base? My problem is getting the right color at the right time and when fetching basics I sometimes get screwed (Im trying playing with all 3 basics, 8 fetches, 5 duals). Or is the right approach to play 8 fetches and 8 duals, when they waste one its one less wasteland for bridge?

Sideboarding: elephant grass, xantid swarm, carpet of flowers, pithing needle, (form). I want all these against merfolk, which do you think is the best approach? I was trying carpet of flowers because it gets rid of daze/cursecatcher/spell pierce and it also enables you to cast a lot of stuff in one turn. All the other cards are self explanatory, the problem is, how to fit all of them in (i.e. what to cut).

masonbrune
10-31-2010, 11:06 PM
I've only recently jumped in to Legacy, but I've done well with this deck in my first 3 tournaments (placing 2nd, 1/2nd split, and 3/4th). My mana base looks similar to yours and I strongly support the running of the basics. So far, I have not had problems color-wise with this deck and I'm not sure what to tell you in that department. While it is dependent on the hand, I've found I tend to fetch underground sea first due to it being the best land for search and disruption. Though the last tournament I played I did find myself fetching more for basics due to many of my opponents playing wasteland interactive decks (lands and aggro loam).

I've had a very hard time side boarding out more than 5-6 cards in this deck and as such, I've tried to keep the sideboard in line with that thought. As far as siding against merfolk, I've stuck to what Srovex said a few pages ago about putting in 2 fotd (I don't run one main) and 3 pithing needles. If I can get an early needle on vial, it makes the game so much easier I've found.

NesretepNoj
11-01-2010, 07:37 AM
Cards I usually side out are: 3 Lotus Petal (against slow control decks not running land destruction), Thoughtseize/Duress against aggresive decks like Zoo and Goblins (you can keep Thoughtseize in, if you are on the play), 1-2 Ponder, 1 Emrakul, 2-4 Force of Will.

You can find some examples of my sideboarding in my tournament report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19090-[Report]-Hyggemagic-dk-9-0-%28Legacy-Gun-Zone-Aarhus-DK%29-1st-playing-Aeon-Bridge).

alphacat
11-07-2010, 02:32 PM
I'm wondering what you guys do against Pox. Seem like LD + Edict effect is the worst news for this deck. Any strategies pre and post board?

Also, how's the matchup against VV Survival?

mistervader
11-15-2010, 04:30 AM
Speed is your best bet against Survival. Post-board, I run 4 Extirpate, which gives them fits. Overall, as a pseudo-combo deck, you're much less worried about VV Survival than most other decks, although they can and will naturally have more answers to Emrakul than most decks due to Survival itself.

mistervader
02-06-2011, 09:17 AM
So... it's been ages, but I guess there's some great news to share.

I came in first after swiss in today's tournament, comprised of 50 players. I think a lot of it had to do with the nature of my matchups, though. Lemme give you my list, and a brief tournament report.

3 Polluted Delta (Should've gone for 4-2 instead, but I wasn't sure about running a basic Forest 'til the last minute.)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp


4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Emrakul
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught

4 Force Of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Show and Tell
4 Stifle

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
3 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Form of the Dragon
3 Elephant Grass

Anyways, here's my tournament report. I didn't take any notes, so it will be very brief.

Round 1 : Versus Rock

Game 1, I just S and T into Emrakul around turn 3. He had nothing.
Game 2, I filter into a Mosswort into Emrakul on turn 3. He had nothing.

1-0

Round 2: Versus Rock

Game 1, I Ponder once, I Brainstorm on the second turn, I fetch, then I topdeck an Emrakul. I had S and T, and I play Emrakul. He had 7 permanents, though, and one of them was a Vampiric Nighthawk. We sweep, I S and T into another Emrakul, he plops in a Nev's disk. He sweeps, and I play a Stiflenaught, to which he has no answer.

Game 2, he overwhelms me with Goyf beats after making sure Emrakul bites the dust to an Edict.

Game 3, he keeps an iffy hand and it took me four turns before I realized he had Urborg in play, which turned my lands into Swamps as well. I was holding a Lim Dul's Vault and could've won sooner had I realized it earlier on, but I set myself up for a Mosswort, and I manage to let it take me all the way.

2-0

Round 3: Versus Dark Depths (Noticing a pattern yet?)

Game 1, I assemble Show and Tell into Emrakul on turn 2, thanks to Lotus Petal. He actually told me I was supposed to take an extra turn. I didn't have the heart not to correct him, but I still won anyways.

Game 2, He hits me with Inquisition of Kozilek on turn 1, and sees two Thoughtseizes. I kept a very iffy hand here... Emrakul, 2 Thoughtseize, and four lands. He removes one TS, and then shakes his head. I TS him back and find out why: he was holding the Hexmage and the Depths, and I take out the Hexmage. I then luck into a Lim Dul's Vault, grab a Brainstorm into a Mosswort, Petal, and Dreadnought, then assemble the combo the next turn.

3-0

Round 4: Versus Rock (See what I mean?)

Game 1, I bring down Emrakul on the third turn via S and T. He had nothing.

Game 2, I bring down Form of the Dragon on turn 3 (He had Karakas in play.), but he Vindicates it, and his Goyf takes him all the way. Boooo!

Game 3, I bring down Stiflenaught on turn 1, and it takes me all the way.

4-0

Round 5: Versus Zoo (!)

Game 1, I S and T into Emrakul on turn 3. He had nothing.

Game 2, I Stiflenaught on turn 3, and Emrakul was hiding under a Bridge for turn 4 insanity.

5-0

Round 6: Versus Burn (!!!)

We ID.

5-0-1

That's right: I encountered ZERO blue decks in this tournament, thereby making my life infinitely easier. Had i been a tad greedy, I could've refused a T8 split, but I wanted to go home early, so I didn't bother trying to double my winnings into a T4 split. Note that there were NO blue decks in the top 8, aside from me and from an Ad Nauseam deck who obviously doesn't run permission anyways.

Crazy luck, I must say.

Kuma
02-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Good to see someone still kicking butt with this deck.

The only blue deck I have trouble with is Merfolk. Unfortunately, that's blue deck number one right now. There really isn't much we can do about it, as it's nearly impossible to resolve a Show and Tell against them. In my experience, our best bet is to Duress/Thoughtseize them turn one and drop a Dreadnought turn two. That's a pretty hard start for them to beat unless they have two or more counterspells.

How's Elephant Grass working? I can't imagine being able to pay the upkeep while playing your setup cards. I need almost every mana my deck has on turns one, two, and three to set up the kill.

mistervader
02-06-2011, 09:37 PM
So far, the Elephant Grass hasn't come up yet. (Pun not intended.) I only ever wanted to use it against the Zoo deck, and I never saw it and just won on the spot instead.

Still, it has its uses, if only to help me stall while I naturally draw into business. I normally lose after S and T by only one turn, so if I can stall them out by that one turn, Elephant Grass would've already done its job. I might try using Goyfs instead, though, and I'm still testing out Birds in lieu of Petals, for the mana stability and Edict sidestepping.

I have a feeling Merfolk will try coming back next tourney. I might end up going back to my combo deck next time.

Kuma
02-07-2011, 12:49 PM
I guess if you cast Elephant Grass turn three and play a fourth land and Show and Tell turn four it's buying you a turn. The problem is if you cast it turn one or two and keep paying the upkeep you won't be able to cast any Lim-Dul's Vaults, and by the time you actually draw what you need your opponent will have a critical mass of attackers. You also need four lands by turn four. Wasteland becomes even more of an issue versus Goblins and Merfolk.

I like the idea, but I'm not sure how much upside it has over Fog, and no one is running Fog.

mistervader
02-10-2011, 03:27 AM
I tend to use Ponder more often than not, when I'm doing my filtering. I really wish I could reliably use Goyf for my purposes, but Goyf can't block Islandwalking Merfolk.

NesretepNoj
03-02-2011, 05:31 PM
Took the deck for a spin today in a local 20ish tournament. This is the list I ran:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection

3 Lotus Petal
4 Mosswort Bridge
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

//Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Krosan Grip
2 Form of the Dragon

vs. Bgw Junk: 2-0

- Turn two Dreadnought with FoW backup
- Turn four Bridge Combo

(Board: -1 Misdirection, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Ponder, +3 Pithing Neelde)

vs. Death and Taxes: 1-2

- Mull to four, died to land destruction
- Show and Tell into Emrakul with Stifle for Karakas
- Land destruction + Karakas

(Board: -1 Misdirection, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Ponder, +3 Pithing Neelde)

vs. UGw Tempo Bant: 2-0

- Fast Dreadnought with FoW backup
- Thoughtseize: take counter, Show and Tell into Emrakul

(Board: Nothting)

vs. Rbg Goblins: 2-1

- Couldn't get a non-bridge land. Died on turn four
- Turn three Show and Tell into Emrakul.
- Turn one: Stifle Lackey, turn two: Goyf, turn three: Show and Tell into Form of The Dragon.

(Board: -1 Misdirection, -4 Thoughtseize, -4 Force of Will, +3 Blue Elemental Blast, +4 Tarmogoyf, +2 Form of the Dragon)

Thoughts: If I where to play the deck again tomorrow, I would change the Misdirection into the fourth Lotus Petal. Being able to hold a stifle for whatever the opponent puts into play with Show and Tell or Thoughtseize them is really important. I think the deck is still very powerfull; especially because of the rogue factor ie. your opponents don't know what you are playing and/or don't know how to play against it.

Srovex
03-13-2011, 07:45 PM
Just dropping by to say that I won a 19 player tournament (5 rounds, no top 8) this sunday. My list was pretty much as the previous list I posted. Dryad Arbor will be cut and some spot removal will be added. Need to decide what. I'll be testing perish and maybe some bounce (wipe away, echoing truth) any suggestions are welcome.

Round 1 Landstill
G1: He gains control of the game after few round of trading counters and business. Not much I can do when Factory beats me down.
Side: In goes pithing needles and some Iona and 2x FotD are coming in in places of 3x Emrakuls.
G2: Fast needle on factory and Jace 2.0 shuts him down early. He too has peacekeeper down so game is at halt when I get a Iona on Blue in from S&T. Some quick Draw and Go later I'm able to drop also FotD and he's toast
G3: I'm losing this game with 39 life (swords on dreadnought in response to bridge activation) and needle on factory. Unluckily he has jace2.0 going for ultimate and standstill on board. Jace ultimates -> I stifle, he has now something like 10+ card in hand and he counters my stifle. I stifle again -> brainstorm, brainstorm -> no other counters \o/. Time is shout at that moment so we tie.
1-1-1

R2 Bant.
G1&2 I see daze, rhox war monk and some other slow typical bant stuff. Win him 2-0 in like 15 mins.
2-0

R3 Merfolk
Just typical for me to run into the only merfolk in this tournament.
G1: Me mulligans to 5. Easy game
G2: A bit tighter game where I drop FotD after some discard but no counter back-up. Luckily he didn't draw his echoing truths in time (was 2nd from top when we checked after game.. phew!)
2-0

R4 Charbelcher with tallmen and culling the weak.
G1: He mulligans to 5 and I have kinda nutty hand. Damn I have lucky fingers!
G2: double toughtseize and force help me to endgame and turn 4+ Dreadnought finishes him for me.
2-0

R5 Elf combo
G1: I get too comfortable when I see "forest llannowar elves go." -Start. And go for turn 1 Dradnought. After I hit him to 8 he starts going off but gets only 13 mana (and he payed summoners pact too!) with Emrakul in hand. Phew again!
G2: manage to stop him from going off but he still manages to beat me down with thise pointy eared freaks. Highlight of the game was him destroying my 'nought with freshly tutored Viridian Shaman. I stiffled it once but he still had enough power to bounce it back and cast again in the same turn!
G3: Turn 2 S&T -> Emrakul was too much for him and I win the tournament! Yay.
2-0

This deck is a blast to play with its little flaws and all. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I do!

Srovex
03-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Just reviewed my last list and noticed that it had changed quite a lot after all. So here is my updates list:

Aeon Bridge

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
1 Duress
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Mosswort Bridge

SB:
1 Dryad Arbor <- Maybe one more duress or something... I don't know yet.
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

NesretepNoj
03-15-2011, 06:59 PM
@Svorex: I can see that our lists are very similar except for the mana base. Why do you run three basic islands? There's no cards in the deck that requires UU. I don't get the basic forest and only one tropical either. When do you need the basic forest?

Beatusnox
03-16-2011, 06:19 AM
@Svorex: I can see that our lists are very similar except for the mana base. Why do you run three basic islands? There's no cards in the deck that requires UU. I don't get the basic forest and only one tropical either. When do you need the basic forest?

Hardcasting force if its needed? Incase the kill the Trop with a waste? I don't know if those are his reasons but they do seem like plausible ones.

Beatusnox
04-05-2011, 03:07 PM
Replying again, What do you guys think of adding the new Karn in here as an alt win condition?

nodahero
04-05-2011, 03:37 PM
The new Karn is certianly a potent card in a vacuum but I doubt he packs any true value... Why would this one suddenly be better than Play Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker? Bolas could at least be pitched to FoW and could just as easily end games.

Bolas has an immediate impact towards winning if need be. Karn does not.

Beatusnox
04-06-2011, 03:38 AM
The new Karn is certianly a potent card in a vacuum but I doubt he packs any true value... Why would this one suddenly be better than Play Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker? Bolas could at least be pitched to FoW and could just as easily end games.

Bolas has an immediate impact towards winning if need be. Karn does not.


The removal provided by Karn be a factor for the game. Even if he is only two turns of removing a permanent, its still two threats down. Though, I agree he is not an unbelievable godsend to the deck, he seems like he could be playable.

NesretepNoj
04-06-2011, 04:00 AM
@Beatusnox: I don't get it. Why would you play planeswalkers in this deck? They can't be put into play using Show and Tell and why spend all the energy to put it under the Bridge, when your opponents can just counter it or you could be winning straight away with a time walking Emrakul?

Beatusnox
04-06-2011, 02:54 PM
Im not saying its great or I am going to run it, just trying to get a discussion going on it. <_<. lol.

nodahero
04-07-2011, 11:35 AM
Perhaps the Jedi Eureka deck could use it. I think that was the name of that deck...

GexxX
04-13-2011, 09:09 AM
What is the new Karn? Searched for Karn, only found the good old silvergolem.
I really think the basic forest is not much use in the deck. The opponent will much more likely target your bridge instead of a tropical and I find it quite easy to fetch a green land at the right time, but that depends on the metagame. If I were expecting like 40% of the field to pack wastelands I'd love to have an extra basic or even two.

Kuma
04-13-2011, 02:19 PM
Right now over half the field is running Wasteland. That's reason enough for two basic lands, IMO. Basic Swamp sucks, so Island and Forest seem like the logical choices.

Srovex
04-17-2011, 04:53 PM
I'm first to admit that my manabase might not be optimal. I can easily see that 2x Islands can be changed to some combination of tropical/UG Sea. What comes to basics I'm just fond of having one basic of each kind. I haven't yet lost any games due to my manabase so I haven't changed it for no reason. Why fix if it isn't broken? ;)

What comes to Karn I agree with NesretepNoj. There is no reason to run finishers that can't be dropped with S&T.

What do you guys think of having that new Extirpate from New Phyrexia in our sideboards?

heretek242
04-17-2011, 05:18 PM
I'm new to this site (admittedly a fail already) but I've been playing, off and on, for quite some time (when Revised came out). I played in a GPT yesterday with a version of this deck I had been developing since last fall. I just read the whole thread and realize it IS possible to develop from the same concept with different results. I worked on this weeks leading up to the C-Bus Grand Prix, but went with New Horizons since I was more comfortable (missed day two at 5-3). I am by NO means attempting to get in a pissing contest...I am simply looking for comparison and logic. Someone I played against told me they saw a version of the deck (which I had called Hide-n-Seek) on The Source so I have come here to check it out. I'll give my list...looking for discussion, not to be berrated on it's inadequacies. Up front I will say I missed the cut on tie-breakers....if I were a better player, I would not have punted game three of the 1st round to a Duplicant , which inevitably cost me a shot at the byes. Here is the list :


Hide-n-Seek

4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Worldly Tutor
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Mosswort Bridge
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
1 Plains
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ground Seal
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gilded Drake
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod



There it is. I'm sure I'll hear some better options, but through my own separate development....outside of what was posted here, and outside of what Conley did/said....it is my own version. And I guess credit is due to Nightmare....apparently....LOL

Kuma
04-18-2011, 12:55 PM
What do you guys think of having that new Extirpate from New Phyrexia in our sideboards?

Why do we need graveyard hate at all? Ichorid is the only graveyard deck seeing widespread play, and it's pretty easy to keep them in check with Force of Will and discard spells.


I'm new to this site (admittedly a fail already) but I've been playing, off and on, for quite some time (when Revised came out). I played in a GPT yesterday with a version of this deck I had been developing since last fall. I just read the whole thread and realize it IS possible to develop from the same concept with different results. I worked on this weeks leading up to the C-Bus Grand Prix, but went with New Horizons since I was more comfortable (missed day two at 5-3). I am by NO means attempting to get in a pissing contest...I am simply looking for comparison and logic. Someone I played against told me they saw a version of the deck (which I had called Hide-n-Seek) on The Source so I have come here to check it out. I'll give my list...looking for discussion, not to be berrated on it's inadequacies. Up front I will say I missed the cut on tie-breakers....if I were a better player, I would not have punted game three of the 1st round to a Duplicant , which inevitably cost me a shot at the byes. Here is the list :

I think I talked to you at the GPT at Kidforce.

A few things:

I can't think of any reason to run Inkwell Leviathan. If you're running him for islandwalk and trample, Progenitus is unblockable. If you're running him for shroud, Progenitus is untargetable. I can't see any reason to run Inkwell Leviathan over a second Progenitus at the very least.

Daze and Wasteland seem out of place. In a deck that desperately wants three mana by turn three, running cards that set you back on mana development seems subpar.

I recommend running a black splash instead of white. Lim-Dul's Vault is much better than Enlightened Tutor, and black allows you to run discard spells.

What are the Engineered Explosives for?

I've experimented with the idea of a Living Wish package, but found it subpar because that extra mana made the deck trip over itself too much and often slowed it down a turn. That's a turn we can't afford to lose against aggro. Still, the deck has changed a lot since I last tried it, and it might be worth another look.

heretek242
04-18-2011, 07:03 PM
"I can't think of any reason to run Inkwell Leviathan. If you're running him for islandwalk and trample, Progenitus is unblockable. If you're running him for shroud, Progenitus is untargetable. I can't see any reason to run Inkwell Leviathan over a second Progenitus at the very least."

Inkwell Leviathan is an artifact creature. It ensures you have a target for your Enlightened Tutor, if you are without a Worldly Tutor, Emrakul, or Progenitus to start the game. Enlightened Tutor is in the deck to help ensure a Dreadnought, and seek an Explosives when needed. It also plays into the sideboard plan of bullets.


"Daze and Wasteland seem out of place. In a deck that desperately wants three mana by turn three, running cards that set you back on mana development seems subpar."

1. Daze is simply another counter to protect the combo. Until you test and see how consistently you are set up by turn 3 in this build, with counter back up, you won't understand the Daze. First two turns all you are using are tutors to set up combo on T3, or straight up show and tell on T3.
2. Wasteland can be used to cast Dreadnought, or colorless for Living Wish, or colorless for Show and Tell. So it isn't setting you back. It also can protect a Bridge in a few scenarios..like when you play it turn two before a Bridge...and can waste their waste beforehand. None of these situations set you back. If you HAD to Daze or Waste before turn 3, you did it to better your game state anyway.
3. Have you ever played New Horizons? In a vacuum...Wasteland and Stifle, together, can and have won games before they start. Especially against Zoo. You already pack the Stifles...the wastes just give added resiliency. They also give you more game against combo outside of your counters.


"What are the Engineered Explosives for?"

I actually only ran one in the main, with one in the board. Once I lost to Merfolk because of TWO reolved Chalice for 1's (I tutored for, and EE'd the first Chalice on 1, qasali'd the Aether Vial (he was stuck on 1 land thanks to my wastelands and killing the vial looked to set me up to go off next turn until....I didn't have the counter for the second Chalice for 1. I had Dreadnought in hand with an active Bridge hiding Progenitus ready to win...and I couldn't move the Chalice). I have two slots to work with....and I chose the EE's. There are SO many matchups where they are crucial for stability on T2 or 3 when you aren't able to live the dream due to your opponent "having the nuts" when they need it. The EE's wipe out soooooo many problems. But...the slots could be something else, if convinced.


I've experimented with the idea of a Living Wish package, but found it subpar because that extra mana made the deck trip over itself too much and often slowed it down a turn. That's a turn we can't afford to lose against aggro. Still, the deck has changed a lot since I last tried it, and it might be worth another look."

Living Wish is like adding 4 more Mosswort Bridges, 4 more Emrakuls, and four maindeck answers to nearly ANY deck you face with the sideboard you have. It is a HOUSE in this version. If you think that tapping two lands and Wishing a Bridge out of the board because you didn't draw it yet and play it immediately is bad, then I don't know what to say. Wishing a turn two Faerie Macabre? (dredge is back. so is reanimator. dedicating 3 or 4 slots to them is not bad) I could go on and on. The ability to side out the wishes is there...and bring in your tutorable cards, and it is required in a few situations. But Living Wish is the reason I was able to gel the build I had worked so hard on.
No matter how consistent the build, there will be times you just don't get all the pieces to the puzzle. It is in these times that the resiliency of this build will give you outs that none of the others will.


"I recommend running a black splash instead of white. Lim-Dul's Vault is much better than Enlightened Tutor, and black allows you to run discard spells."

Funny thing happened....I never thought to use Lim Dul's Vault until Feb/March of this year. Slipped my mind. I began testing and realized how powerful it could be. However here is what I encountered...
1. The discard package would cut into the counter package (Daze).
2. Vault can be Stifled (tutors can't).
3. Life loss (only relevant in a few instances...but still relevant)
4. You end up all in on the Vault.
5. If it is taken from the deck, somehow (several tricks out there), you have very little chance of winning. (again, few instances, but relevant)
6. You lose access to white mana, unless you jack into your mana base. Some of the sideboard options in white are just too good to pass on. I guess you are under the impression that with the discard, you will hit what you need which alleviates the need for some of those cards. Maybe true...but the percentages are with the tutor/white package on this one.

I would LOVE to work this out with everyone. Feel free to chime in..offer ideas. (especially in the board)

Yes.....I was at Kidforce. I hadn't played in a Legacy Tournament since GP Columbus....and it showed. I will be running this list quite a bit to work out the kinks...but I am convinced it is the way to go...at least for now.

dsck
04-19-2011, 05:16 AM
"What are the Engineered Explosives for?"
I actually only ran one in the main, with one in the board. Once I lost to Merfolk because of TWO reolved Chalice for 1's (I tutored for, and EE'd the first Chalice on 1, qasali'd the Aether Vial (he was stuck on 1 land thanks to my wastelands and killing the vial looked to set me up to go off next turn until....I didn't have the counter for the second Chalice for 1. I had Dreadnought in hand with an active Bridge hiding Progenitus ready to win...and I couldn't move the Chalice). I have two slots to work with....and I chose the EE's. There are SO many matchups where they are crucial for stability on T2 or 3 when you aren't able to live the dream due to your opponent "having the nuts" when they need it. The EE's wipe out soooooo many problems. But...the slots could be something else, if convinced.


Merfolk running Chalice of the Voids? WUT!?

Kuma
04-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Inkwell Leviathan is an artifact creature. It ensures you have a target for your Enlightened Tutor, if you are without a Worldly Tutor, Emrakul, or Progenitus to start the game.

Makes sense. I wasn't thinking about Enlightened Tutor because I don't run it.


1. Daze is simply another counter to protect the combo. Until you test and see how consistently you are set up by turn 3 in this build, with counter back up, you won't understand the Daze. First two turns all you are using are tutors to set up combo on T3, or straight up show and tell on T3.

Daze only protects your combo if your opponent is tapped out --- you can't rely on that happening. How consistently you combo turn three doesn't change that. Thoughtseize and Duress are much better pieces of protection because they're guaranteed to stop any problem card except Wasteland and Karakas. The information they give you is priceless in determining your course of action.


2. Wasteland can be used to cast Dreadnought, or colorless for Living Wish, or colorless for Show and Tell. So it isn't setting you back.

It is if you use it for its God intended purpose of destroying a land. If you're not going to do that, you're better off running lands that make colored mana. This deck is really color hungry.


It also can protect a Bridge in a few scenarios..like when you play it turn two before a Bridge...and can waste their waste beforehand. None of these situations set you back.

How does losing a land in a deck that desperately wants three lands by turn three not set you back? No smart player is going to leave a Wasteland sitting out against this deck. They're going to immediately destroy one of your lands, because they realize how crucial having three mana is for this deck.

The kinds of decks that run Wasteland are tempo decks designed to wreck your resources without slowing themselves down. These decks usually run Aether Vial so their Wastelands don't hinder their mana development. Aeon Bridge is not that kind of deck. If we sacrifice a Wasteland, we do so at the expense of our mana development. There's no way around this.

You could run Pithing Needle to stop their Wastelands/Karakas while not setting yourself back on lands. That's the beauty of the discard/Pithing Needle package. Discard hits everything but lands, and Pithing Needle stops all the problem lands.


3. Have you ever played New Horizons? In a vacuum...Wasteland and Stifle, together, can and have won games before they start. Especially against Zoo. You already pack the Stifles...the wastes just give added resiliency. They also give you more game against combo outside of your counters.

Most decks running Wasteland and Stifle also run Aether Vial and/or Noble Hierarch to make up for the tempo loss of sacrificing Wasteland and holding mana open for Stifle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't New Horizons run Noble Hierarch? I know it runs Knight of the Reliquary to ensure it hits a critical mass of Wastelands, because one Wasteland in a vacuum rarely does anything.

I'm sure you'll win some random games because you had a hand with two Wastelands and a Stifle while your opponent was land light. I'm also sure you'll lose games to fast decks with stable mana bases because you couldn't get the colors you needed fast enough. Decks with weak mana bases tend to be strong matchups already. Zoo is among our best matchups without Wastelands. The decks that give us trouble are things like Merfolk, Death & Taxes, and to a lesser extent, Goblins.

Also, discard is much better against combo than Wasteland.


I actually only ran one in the main, with one in the board. Once I lost to Merfolk because of TWO reolved Chalice for 1's (I tutored for, and EE'd the first Chalice on 1, qasali'd the Aether Vial (he was stuck on 1 land thanks to my wastelands and killing the vial looked to set me up to go off next turn until....I didn't have the counter for the second Chalice for 1. I had Dreadnought in hand with an active Bridge hiding Progenitus ready to win...and I couldn't move the Chalice). I have two slots to work with....and I chose the EE's. There are SO many matchups where they are crucial for stability on T2 or 3 when you aren't able to live the dream due to your opponent "having the nuts" when they need it. The EE's wipe out soooooo many problems. But...the slots could be something else, if convinced.

Like the other guy said, Merfolk almost never runs Chalice of the Void. Instead of EE, I run Lotus Petals to speed the deck up. Turn one Dreadnought and turn two Show and Tell is more than most aggro decks can handle. Besides, there are tons of times the deck just wants one more mana, and the Petals do that admirably.

I can see EE being decent against Merfolk and Death & Taxes, but I think Lotus Petal has more applications.


Living Wish is like adding 4 more Mosswort Bridges, 4 more Emrakuls, and four maindeck answers to nearly ANY deck you face with the sideboard you have. It is a HOUSE in this version. If you think that tapping two lands and Wishing a Bridge out of the board because you didn't draw it yet and play it immediately is bad, then I don't know what to say. Wishing a turn two Faerie Macabre? (dredge is back. so is reanimator. dedicating 3 or 4 slots to them is not bad) I could go on and on. The ability to side out the wishes is there...and bring in your tutorable cards, and it is required in a few situations. But Living Wish is the reason I was able to gel the build I had worked so hard on.
No matter how consistent the build, there will be times you just don't get all the pieces to the puzzle. It is in these times that the resiliency of this build will give you outs that none of the others will.

Random thought: Why not run one Phyrexian Dreadnought in the sideboard so you can wish for it?

My only beef with Living Wish is that it slows the deck down. It probably increases your percentages of turn four wins, but at the cost of a cohesive sideboard.

I personally don't think we need any graveyard hate. Ichoid is inconsistent, and if you Thoughtseize or counter their discard outlet, you should have all the time you need to win. I haven't played against Reanimator with Aeon Bridge, and I don't think it's that common of a deck, but maybe it is in your metagame.


Funny thing happened....I never thought to use Lim Dul's Vault until Feb/March of this year. Slipped my mind. I began testing and realized how powerful it could be. However here is what I encountered...
1. The discard package would cut into the counter package (Daze).

Thoughtseize is a much, much better card than Daze.


2. Vault can be Stifled (tutors can't).

Vault can't be Stifled.


3. Life loss (only relevant in a few instances...but still relevant)

I rarely pay more than 2-3 life on a Lim-Dul's Vault. I tend to side out one or two versus aggro anyway.


4. You end up all in on the Vault.

How so? And why would this be any less true for Worldy Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, or Living Wish?


5. If it is taken from the deck, somehow (several tricks out there), you have very little chance of winning. (again, few instances, but relevant)

See previous response.


6. You lose access to white mana, unless you jack into your mana base. Some of the sideboard options in white are just too good to pass on. I guess you are under the impression that with the discard, you will hit what you need which alleviates the need for some of those cards. Maybe true...but the percentages are with the tutor/white package on this one.

The best thing about Lim-Dul's Vault is that you can use it to get more than one card that you need. You can get Mosswort + Emrakul, or Dreadnought + Emrakul, Dreadnought + Stifle, etc. I'm not sure what the percentages are for any version, but I think you need to consider LDV's ability to get multiple cards a little more heavily.

Kuma
04-19-2011, 03:01 PM
My current list for discussion's sake:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pithing Needle
2 Form of the Dragon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Progenitus
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Srovex
05-08-2011, 08:09 PM
My current list for discussion's sake:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pithing Needle
2 Form of the Dragon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Progenitus
2 Maelstrom Pulse

How has the worldly tutor been working for you?

Also, as the NPH closes in we should think if this deck is viable in post Mental Misstep metagame. And where should we put ours. Because, face it... we have to have that card in this deck with so many vital cc1 spells.

My suggestion to above list:
-2x worldly tutor
-2x duress
+ 4x MM

Srovex
05-08-2011, 08:10 PM
double post

Kuma
05-08-2011, 10:54 PM
How has the worldly tutor been working for you?

Fantastic. I don't understand why most people aren't running it. It greatly improves the deck's consistency flexibility. Having six Xantid Swarms against Merfolk and four Iona's against storm is huge.


Also, as the NPH closes in we should think if this deck is viable in post Mental Misstep metagame. And where should we put ours. Because, face it... we have to have that card in this deck with so many vital cc1 spells.

My suggestion to above list:
-2x worldly tutor
-2x duress
+ 4x MM

I don't know how you play the deck, but I win almost every game with Show and Tell. Mental Misstep is annoying, sure, but I don't think we want to be running it. We don't really want to counter too many one mana spells, and running Mental Misstep to counter Mental Misstep is a fools errand. Where does it fit? Duress and Thoughtseize are much better than Mental Misstep at stopping problem cards, because even if they Misstep it, we still got rid of a Mental Misstep. Show and Tell, Force of Will, Emrakul, Brainstorm, and LDV aren't going anywhere. That leaves Worldly Tutor, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Stifle on the chopping block.

Mental Misstep makes me want to get rid of the entire Dreadnought/Mosswort Bridge package for Natural Order/Green Sun's Zenith/mana dorks. That's an entirely different deck.

I don't fear Mental Misstep from most decks since it's going to be their only relevant hate card. What worries me is Merfolk having four more ways to stop Xantid Swarm. The already shaky Merfolk matchup just got a lot worse, and we can't afford to be worse than 50/50 against what's going to be the deck to beat for the foreseeable future.

I don't think this deck is a good choice for the metagame right now, and adding four Mental Misstep doesn't change that.

Srovex
07-03-2011, 05:09 PM
I have been playing Zoo and ANT for the last few tournaments and I have been doing quite bad and those decks just don't suit my play style. I like more controlling play (not going to leave my home without Forces anymore..) and permanent based combos.
So after some testing with cephalid breakfast and reanimator (proxyed) I decided to go with my trusted Aeon Bridge! I already had almost all the cards (still didn't get the wordly tutors I wanted to test in field..) and it was familiar to play. I think I have at least top8'd all the tournaments I have played with it and won two times so I'm quite fond with it ;).

So I TOP 8:ed two times with this deck this weekend (~30 and ~20 participants). Here is what happened (or what I remember of it...)

1st, Saturday tournament:

R1 Painters stone without recruiters
g1 He complains not having any maindeck responses to multiple emrakul
g2 He still complains as I beat him brutally.
1-0

R2 GW angrybears (maverick)
g1 Strike him with Emrakul -> he sacs all his lands and have huge Knight + aven mindcensor in play afterwards. I bridge in another emrakul to get the extra round but (not suprisingly) draw nothing that can save me and die.
g2/3 Can't remember if I won the second round or did he finish me of then and there. In any case I lost both times to poor draws.
1-1

R3 Merfolk
g1/g2 He mulligans both games and I win by comboing him very fast. Iona for blue was funny.
2-1

R4 Stax
g1 I got game loss for showing up too late for round... damn slow service at local fast food restaurant =(
g2 Combo him easily really early. (at this point we have used like 10mins of total match time.)
g3 The game goes to time after long and frustrating game (that saw 3 resolved armageddons!) where in the end he had humility, chalice for 1, 2 and 3 in play and some other stupid stuff. I have pithing needles for wasteland, mishra's factory and Jace 2.0 -> and I suffled my graveyard in with emrakul. He would have eventually won the game (she was slowly closing in for the needles with smoke stacks) but the time was called and he couldn't finish it in time.
Made stupid playmistake this game that lost me the whole round. He had humility in play and I had emrakul, form, nought, s&t, some stuff and bridge in hand after BS. I decide to "slowroll" Form (to play around humility) with bridge. 2 seconds after putting my 2nd sideboarded form under the bridge I realise that 'noughs don't trigger off the bridge with humility on board... stared that S&T and emrakul in my hand for the rest of the long game trying do dig for 1-off form with cantrips...
2-1-1

R5 High tide with resets
g1 kill him with fast 'nought
g2 he combos me easily after I kept a hand with 2 discard, 1 xantid swarm and drawing nothing but mosswort and xantids after =(
g3 I show and tell, he tanks for awhile while thinking aloud if he could win trough anything i drop. S&T resolves, I show him iona and he scoops. Tough luck mate!
3-1-1

last place to top8!

top8 I get paired up with uw landstill
g1 He clearly doesn'e understand the interaction between mosswort and dreadnought.
Him: " 'nought reselves"
Me: "ok, activate Bridge"
Him: "ok..."
Me: "cast Emrakul"
Him: (first noticing he can't counter it...) "ok. . ."
Me: "go for the extra turn?"
Him: "oh.." *scooop*
g2/g3 despite for the amusing 1 game he gets me both games pretty easily. I just draw too badly for the situation and he had counters in all the relevant points of the game. Standstills draw him many extra cards.
Funny thing happened when he had leyline of sanctity on board and I dropped Form with echoing truth in hand. I was forced to discard the ET to my second FoW by oblivion ringing my form (he had lethal ground damage on board) to my second force.. had to shoot myself with the Form =D
LOSE.

Sunday:
R1 paired up with ANT (he wasn't too familiar with legacy and was probably only playing because we had standard PTQ Saturday at my town. He was playing the storm good enough though.)
g1 he ad nauseams from 17 life after stripping my hand of counters turn before my S&T came live. Too bad he killed himself.
g2 I stifled his first attempt to tendrils but afterwards he drops confidant and beats me to 7 life before storming me for 10 life. I draw irrelevant cards all game.
g3 I get to drop Iona for black and beat him 2 times. at 4 life he chain of vapors iona and starts to go off. He didn't have good enough protection tough and I get to stifle his tendrils(again!) and drop iona for win next round. This game went to time! =D
1-0

R2 Burn
g1 fast 'nought for the win
g2 he gets me with smash to smithereens on nough after I dropped it to block his little beaters.
g3 1st turn 'nough 2nd turn 'seize for the win.
2-0

R3 BUG Still
g1/2 he winds me hands down after I keep some shaky hands with some bad playing on my part. Could have played many things differently and maybe lost because of those mistakes. (also draw 3 mosswort bridge and bayou..)
2-1

R4 Lands!
g1 after seeing his hand with seize I drop nought and it gets there.
g2 is really long and involves me dropping form of the dragon and progenitus. he answers the form at 4 life with glacial chasms and zuran orb. He dredges away his krosan grips to deal with my form though and is unable to draw manabond -> mind slaver lock me before time.
3-1

R5 ID
3-1-1

TOP8
Play against my my R5 opponent =D
He is playing bant.
g1 he wins me after tight game.
g2 I win by bridge emrakul -> annihilate his board -> needle for karakas after.
g3 He wins after semi tight game. At first we traded blows well but in the end I didn't draw enough lands to match his wastes and disruption and I lost.

I'll post my list here if there is anyone here interested of this deck anymore =D

TheG
07-04-2011, 06:25 AM
yes i'm interested! how do you handle a post MM legacy?

Kuma
07-04-2011, 12:29 PM
yes i'm interested! how do you handle a post MM legacy?

Run something like this:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Noble Hierarch

4 Show and Tell
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vendilion Clique

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terastodon
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Form of the Dragon

menace13
07-04-2011, 04:39 PM
Run something like this:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Noble Hierarch

4 Show and Tell
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vendilion Clique

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Terastodon
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Form of the Dragon
Aeon Bridge. Pretty sure that involves a Dreadnought and some Bridge.

Kuma
07-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Aeon Bridge. Pretty sure that involves a Dreadnought and some Bridge.

http://picardfacepalm.com/picard-facepalm.jpg

Pretty sure that's an awful strategy in a format of Mental Missteps.

I'm suggesting a way to play something similar that doesn't really care about Mental Misstep.

mistervader
07-16-2011, 10:33 PM
Tried your list, but I missed Ponder terribly. Worldly Tutor has its uses, but Ponder did more for me in the long run.


My current list for discussion's sake:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Lotus Petal

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pithing Needle
2 Form of the Dragon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Progenitus
2 Maelstrom Pulse

menace13
07-17-2011, 12:11 AM
http://picardfacepalm.com/picard-facepalm.jpg

Pretty sure that's an awful strategy in a format of Mental Missteps.

I'm suggesting a way to play something similar that doesn't really care about Mental Misstep.
Cute pic, but kinda old now.
You're in the wrong thread.
And if you're not playing Nought+Bridge then you're not playing Aeon Bridge? I thought it was pretty simple./

Holden1669
09-20-2011, 11:13 PM
So. Now that mental misstep is banned is Aeon Bridge playable again?

Spigore
11-16-2011, 03:57 AM
Is anyone still playing this deck? Kuma? Srovex?

I've been checking out this threat but stayed away from building due to Mental Misstep.
Now I'm looking forward to actually play this.

Kuma
11-16-2011, 10:55 AM
I haven't played this in a long time. The last thing I played that was even close was the Natural Order/Show and Tell list I posted in here months ago.

There's too much countermagic and removal going around right now to make this deck viable. I can't see this beating BUG or Uwr Stoneblade reliably. It likely has problems with RUG, too.

Esper3k
11-16-2011, 10:58 AM
All the Stifles in the Meta right now seem to make Mosswort Bridge sad...

NesretepNoj
11-16-2011, 11:28 AM
The only thing making this more viable at the moment is the popularity of Go for the Throat and Dismember (compared to the numbers of Swords to Plowshares).

I actually sad down yesterday, and tried to rethink this deck. My conclusion was, that except other combo-decks like the storm-based ones, becomes increasingly more popular, Hive Mind is just the better deck.

Hive Mind only fears three things: Taxation-counters, heavy discard and dedicated hate. It is on average multiple turns faster, and hence, can race aggro decks. Aoen Bridge, on the other hand, has problems with all cards ever printed except graveyard-hate.

That being said, if I were to play this deck again, this would probably be my list:

1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm
1 Duress
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
1 Form of the Dragon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Divert
1 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Form of the Dragon

TheRedBaron
11-30-2011, 09:15 AM
I have been thinking about building this deck for quite some time. My approach will be different. Worldly tutor seems to actually be the best card in this deck... why less than 4-of? It's instant speed respond-to-Hideaway trigger.

I'm thinking G/U/r, with fully transformational board into counterbalance. You can drop a standstill and cheat into play an emmy from a bridge under Protection of balance and top. Suppose something like this could work?

To my list:

Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Instants
4 brainstorm
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
Sorcery
4 Show and Tell
2 Ponder
Enchantements
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalker
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Forest
Sideboard
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Firespout
3 Standstill
3 Tarmogoyf

Depends highly on match, but you can board as follows, firespout being flexible and pretty solid vs snapcaster decks:
- 4 Show + tell
-3 Emmy
- 1 Dread
-1 Prog
- 1 library
-1 Tutor
-2 Ponder

+1 JTMS
+ 4 CB
+ 3 Goyfs
+ 3 Standstill
+2 Tops

Might find room for Bolts for removal as well. Flexibility of worldy tutor + cantrips/top also means you don't have to drop the combo all together. Also, from the list, because of redundancy, I may -2 ponder -1 library main, for +2/3 Tops, leaving room on board for K-grip or additional transformational cards.

Holden1669
12-01-2011, 06:32 PM
I would love for this deck to be viable so I really like the idea of shaking things up somewhat. I have mixed feelings about dropping black, though. I found both thoughtseize/duress and lim-dul's vault to be very helpful when I used to play the deck (it has been nine months or so since I tried it). I also expected worldly tutor to be really good but for some reason it wasn't for me and I usually preferred to see LDV instead. But if you are dropping black then LDV -> tutor makes a lot of sense. I think you lose something going from thoughtseize -> daze but that does seem like the first replacement to try for sure.

I also tried spashing red for firespout because i kept losing to zoo, merfolk, etc and couldn't get it to work. It will probably be more successful if you drop one of the other colors, though, so I like where you're going with that.

One of the big advantages of a deck like Aeon Bridge is that people don't see it coming and often don't know how to react to it even after game one. I like the idea of a transformational sideboard. I don't know if counterbalance is the way to go or not but it seems like a cool thing to try.

How is the maindeck Jace working for you? Is it a viable Plan B win condition without any creatures to protect it or do you tend to use it to bounce/brainstorm and help set up the combo?

Anyway, good luck! I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.

menace13
12-02-2011, 12:44 AM
You can drop a standstill and cheat into play an emmy from a bridge under Protection of balance and top.
You don't want to break your own Standstill. Mosswort casting Ermakul-or anything- triggers Standstill.

damionblackgear
12-02-2011, 04:12 AM
@TheRedBaron - I Like your list. I think it could be better than the other options stated as reasons not to play this deck (hivemind, show and tell, etc) simply because of available resiliency. I would suggest working on protecting/disrupting instead of locks with your board. A couple blasts, and perhaps another 1-2 Firespouts would work out better than the counterbalance lock. It may also be a good idea to just use top. You have enough shuffle effects to take advantage of it. I'll give it a whirl when I get a chance, but that may be a little while as my collection was recently downsized.

moseby
12-15-2011, 10:21 AM
Has anyone thought about adding torpor orb?
Beside the obvious reason to run it, it shuts off SFM, and Snapcaster which are running rampant.

I really like aeonbridge but the prevalence of wasteland in my meta makes it very difficult to run.

beau-ass
12-15-2011, 01:54 PM
Add Tefiri's Response to the board...

TheG
04-16-2012, 03:50 PM
Hello everyone :)

the new print http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129994&stc=1&d=1334270803 + mutavault seems perfect with this top.card.manipulation deck

could it be the card that reinvigorate this awesome archetype!?