Scion of the Ur-Dragon

[sunshine]

This deck is amazingly fun to play and just as powerful. You get to see a ton of cards and cheat some serious beaters into play. There's a utility dragon for almost every situation plus a couple other targets to fill in the gaps.

// General
Scion of the Ur-Dragon

// Enablers - 16
Bazaar of Baghdad

Breakthrough
Careful Study

Ideas Unbound
Strategic Planning
Tolarian Winds

Thirst for Knowledge
Attunement
Compulsive Research
Flux
Frantic Search
Magus of the Bazaar
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall

Careful Consideration
Fact or Fiction

// The Cheats - 17
Reanimate

Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Exhume
Life/Death

Corpse Dance
Loyal Retainers
Necromancy
Show and Tell

Diabolic Servitude
Eureka
Makeshift Mannequin
Vigor Mortis

Living Death
Miraculous Recovery
Patriarch's Bidding

Dragonstorm

// The Dragons - 14
Keiga, the Tide Star
Kilnmouth Dragon
Malfegor
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Teneb, the Harvester
Yosei, the Morning Star

Bladewing the Risen
Dragon Mage
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Thunder Dragon

Bogardan Hellkite
Hellkite Overlord
Nicol Bolas
Scourge of Kher Ridges

Dragon Tyrant

// Non-Dragon Reanimation Targets - 3
Terastodon

Iona, Shield of Emeria

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

// Utility - 3
Chaos Warp
Oblation

Decimate

// Acceleration/Fixing - 14
Chrome Mox
Mana Crypt

Mana Vault
Sol Ring

Dimir Signet
Fellwar Stone
Grim Monolith
Izzet Signet
Rakdos Signet
Sphere of the Suns
Talisman of Dominance

Coalition Relic
Darksteel Ingot

Gilded Lotus

// Lands - 31
Arcane Sanctum
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Cephalid Coliseum
City of Brass
Command Tower
Crumbling Necropolis
Ancient Tomb
Exotic Orchard
Gemstone Mine
Grand Coliseum
Jungle Shrine
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Mirrodin'S Core
Mosswort Bridge
Reflecting Pool
Rupture Spire
Savage Lands
Seaside Citadel
Shimmering Grotto
Snow-Covered Island
Snow-Covered Swamp
Spinerock Knoll
Tarnished Citadel
Tendo Ice Bridge
Unstable Frontier
Vesuva
Vivid Crag
Vivid Creek
Vivid Grove
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Meadow

Recent Changes (6/23/2011)
Removed a few dragons and weaker reanimation spells for more draw/discard. Also working in some removal. Giving Jin-Gitaxias a try. Finally managed to track down a Bazaar of Baghdad and Strategic Planning :).


Currently Testing
Avatar of Slaughter
Tooth and Nail

Alternative Lists
Zlatzman (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16467-[EDH]-Scion-of-the-Ur-Dragon)

[sligh16]

Yeah, scion is pretty fun to play, but Recurring nightmare is banned, for good reasons ^^. Maybe Rise from the grave, or cauldron dance or dance of the dead or even Goryo's vengeance can fill the spot.

[Bryant Cook]

This deck would be a fuckton cooler if it played dragonstorm.

[sunshine]

Yeah, scion is pretty fun to play, but Recurring nightmare is banned, for good reasons ^^. Maybe Rise from the grave, or cauldron dance or dance of the dead or even Goryo's vengeance can fill the spot.

Damn, where is the actual comprehensive banned list for EDH? I've never had anyone comment on it being banned before but I'll gladly (sadly :cry:) take it out if it is.


This deck would be a fuckton cooler if it played dragonstorm.

True sir, most likely that's what'll go in the Recurring Nightmare slot if it is indeed banned.

Edit: I actually overlooked it because I don't own one.

[Aggro_zombies]

You could lobby your play group for an exemption to the ban on Recurring Nightmare. You're not doing anything too broken with it, so they might be fine with letting you play it as long as you don't try to set up any infinite loops or anything.

EDIT: Also, your land count seems kind of low.

[sunshine]

Made the following changes:

Recurring Nightmare -> Dragonstorm
Kokusho, the Evening Star -> Spellbound Dragon

Turns out Kokusho is banned as well.


You could lobby your play group for an exemption to the ban on Recurring Nightmare. You're not doing anything too broken with it, so they might be fine with letting you play it as long as you don't try to set up any infinite loops or anything.

I'll likely just keep Recurring Nightmare and Kokusho in the EDH box and swap them in depending on the group I'm playing with. Dragonstorm is a pretty solid choice regardless. I plan to throw down some EDH goodness at the GP at the end of the month so I'll at least make sure everything is kosher for that. Losing Kokusho and Recurring Nightmare makes me sad.

EDIT:

Gave Volrath's Shapeshifter the axe, without Recurring Nightmare he's just not so amazing...

Volrath's Shapeshifter -> Yawgmoth's Will

Will isn't always golden in this deck, often it will just be a more expensive reanimation effect + land drop - which really is good enough. With enough mana it's obviously stupid so it gets to come back in.


EDIT: Also, your land count seems kind of low.

The number of actual lands is on the low side. However, as long as my opponent isn't actively disrupting my manabase I'm generally fine. There's plenty of artifact mana (total of 44 mana sources in the deck) to smooth things over and all the draw effects help as well.

[Baumeister]

I have a friend who plays this general and he always accelerates into a turn four Scion followed by searching for Dragon Tyrant on turn five to general somebody out. Either I have an instant-speed answer for his dragon, or I lose. Is there any reason to play this deck any other way?

I feel like a lot of the dragons you have, you would never even search for. And when would Kilnmouth Dragon ever be useful? It's hard enough to get that thing to be more than an 8/8 in my casual 60 card dragon deck with 12 dragons in it. Your ratio is even lower.

[sunshine]

I have a friend who plays this general and he always accelerates into a turn four Scion followed by searching for Dragon Tyrant on turn five to general somebody out. Either I have an instant-speed answer for his dragon, or I lose. Is there any reason to play this deck any other way?

I feel like a lot of the dragons you have, you would never even search for. And when would Kilnmouth Dragon ever be useful? It's hard enough to get that thing to be more than an 8/8 in my casual 60 card dragon deck with 12 dragons in it. Your ratio is even lower.

My guess is your friend plays a lot more two player duels than I do. In a 4+ person game its pretty rare to untap with Scion before turn 7-8. I typically won't even play him unless I have the mana open to at least threaten a morph into Quicksilver to deflect a removal spell.

[Baumeister]

My guess is your friend plays a lot more two player duels than I do. In a 4+ person game its pretty rare to untap with Scion before turn 7-8. I typically won't even play him unless I have the mana open to at least threaten a morph into Quicksilver to deflect a removal spell.

True. I've all but had to take apart my Azusa deck because it has no way to stop a turn four Scion.

Have you found that people tend to target your general as soon as it hits play? How often do you go after Tyrant if you know you can push through damage (if not, what dragon do you search for first most of the time)? Do you tend to one-shot with different dragons and then reanimate them all? Lastly (sorry for the interrogation), are there any cards that you hate to see when playing with Scion?

[sunshine]

True. I've all but had to take apart my Azusa deck because it has no way to stop a turn four Scion.

Have you found that people tend to target your general as soon as it hits play? How often do you go after Tyrant if you know you can push through damage (if not, what dragon do you search for first most of the time)? Do you tend to one-shot with different dragons and then reanimate them all? Lastly (sorry for the interrogation), are there any cards that you hate to see when playing with Scion?

I've definitely found that Scion has a huge target on his head - and rightly so - especially if you don't have the mana open to spin him into a Kamigawa dragon or Quicksilver.

Tyrant typically won't be my first choice even if I have a clear shot at somebody, unless of course I do have enough red mana to get a kill. I usually reach for Nicol Bolas which is probably just as good to connect with in a 1-1 game.

Which dragons I search up first is very dependent on the deck I'm playing against. If I haven't managed to get any dudes in my graveyard yet with draw/discard effects I'll often search up a Yosei or Keiga at eot just before I untap for the first time with him in play. Bladewing + X is a frequent play as well, netting two dudes for a single reanimation spell. Thunder Dragon and Scourge will often come out early if I'm facing lots of tokens or worrisome low-toughness creatures.

As for which cards I hate to see - it seems like your friend's build (which I'm guess is the motivation for the question :wink:) is a little different but the only thing I really hate to see are things that attack my manabase. Moon effects, Back to Basics, mass artifact destruction, even a well timed Waste/Strip Mine can set me back long enough to be troublesome. Besides that I generally don't have many ways to answer problematic enchantments (Humility and Ground Seal come to mind).

[Baumeister]

Tyrant typically won't be my first choice even if I have a clear shot at somebody, unless of course I do have enough red mana to get a kill. I usually reach for Nicol Bolas which is probably just as good to connect with in a 1-1 game.

As for which cards I hate to see - it seems like your friend's build (which I'm guess is the motivation for the question :wink:) is a little different but the only thing I really hate to see are things that attack my manabase. Moon effects, Back to Basics, mass artifact destruction, even a well timed Waste/Strip Mine can set me back long enough to be troublesome. Besides that I generally don't have many ways to answer problematic enchantments (Humility and Ground Seal come to mind).

I've been hit with Nicol Bolas a couple of times, but it's usually because I've taunted him into doing something splashy to get some victory points. Both times I had mass recursion (Cast Uril then Replenish for Fires of Yavimaya + a couple of enchanments for a quick win). I think I may have scared him off of using Bolas.

You run a lot of artifact acceleration. I'm pretty sure about 1/3 of my friend's deck is literally rampant growth affects. He usually has a board full of basics which are hard to disrupt and the few times I've play dedicated land destruction, he's been able to recover fairly quickly. Also, LD kind of goes against the idea of the format (in my opinion).

I did notice that you don't run a lot of answer cards, but I don't know if you need them. The deck generally plays out threats that demand answers until nobody has them anymore. There's always the rare Solitary Confinement (or whatever), but I think most of the time it won't matter. I'm pretty sure you're generally going to play the aggro role.

I guess I'm just bitching and moaning more than I need to. Scion isn't a very common general and I just got stuck with somebody who thought it would be cool to throw all of his dragons into an EDH deck and have at it. You'll have to let me know if people start to roll their eyes when you sit down to play EDH and pull out your Scion deck.

[sunshine]

That's the other reason I didn't just build for the fast Tyrant plan. I find it more fun to run esoteric cards and splashy effects like Eureka and Show and Tell.

I haven't had anybody roll their eyes yet - but then I used to roll with Oona combo which was... less interactive. Also, the other general I play often is Mangara, Vindicate on a stick gets old a lot faster than dragons.

Oh - also Ensnaring Bridge is a solid colorless option for stopping those pesky fliers.

[Baumeister]

Oh - also Ensnaring Bridge is a solid colorless option for stopping those pesky fliers.

That's actually a pretty great idea. I'll have to try it out.

And just so we're clear, using it's ability and then attacking with Scion still counts as general damage, right? I'm pretty sure it does, but I'm not entirely sure on the way the rules work.

[sunshine]

That's actually a pretty great idea. I'll have to try it out.

And just so we're clear, using it's ability and then attacking with Scion still counts as general damage, right? I'm pretty sure it does, but I'm not entirely sure on the way the rules work.

Yeah, that still counts as general damage:



Being a General is not a characteristic[MTG CR109.3], it is a property of the card. As such, "Generalness" cannot be copied or overwritten by continuous effects, and does not change with control of the card. Examples

Examples: A Body Double copying a General in a graveyard is not a General. A General which is affected by Cytoshape, or is face down, is still a General.


The relevant part being that a general affected by Cytoshape (i.e. your general becomes a copy of some other creature) is still a general. Here's a link (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php) to the rules page I grabbed that from. Click on "Play" then "Examples" for rule #9.

[Zlatzman]

Been playing Scion in EDH myself and I find it to be great fun.

The core of the deck is quite similar (acceleration + scion + dragons + reanimation), but I've chosen to run some mass removal instead of ways of cheating cards into play (e.g. Show and Tell). I also run a rampant growth-package instead of artifact acceleration, as there is more artifact-removal than land-removal in my playgroup.

As for possible inclusions to the deck:

Genesis
Zirilan of the Claw
Lightning Greaves


if you include Zirilan you might want to look at Greater Good

[sunshine]

Greater Good is pretty interesting even without Zirilan - combo's well with Corpse Dance . If you want to post (or pm me) your list I'd be happy to include it in the OP as an alternate take on the deck - same goes for anyone else actively working on this general.

I've been thinking more and more about switching up the acceleration package to a rampant growth style one. Having all the artifacts really hasn't been too much of a hinderance and I don't really like the idea of needing green mana to play my acceleration but I'll probably give it a try at some point.

[Zlatzman]

You can check out this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16467-[EDH]-Scion-of-the-Ur-Dragon) thread for my old list. The current list is quite similar to that list, I guess 10 or so cards are changed.

I think I'm going to move a bit towards the list you're running, with more ways to put dragons into the graveyard.

[sunshine]

Took a look at your list, I overlooked both Makeshift Mannequin and Twilight's Call - once I get my hands on a copy of each they'll definitely be making their way in. Especially since they both have the potential to reanimate Emrakul.

Also, with all the draw/discard effects I'm running Life from the Loam is probably worth testing at least.

EDIT:

@Zlatzman - I added a link to your thread in the OP. If you have any objections just let me know and I'll take it down.

[sunshine]

Going to give Betrayal of Flesh and Dimir Doppelganger a spin in the Body Double slot. Trying to maximize the instant speed reanimation effects to make sure I have a reasonable chance of getting Emrakul into play.

[sunshine]

Updated list in the OP to include some of the recently printed dragons:

Steel Hellkite
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Malfegor

Always nice to get some added utility without making too many sacrifices.

I'm testing Survival of the Fittest as well - I'm already running Retainers + Iona/Emrakul so it seems like a natural fit given that it also a wellspring of reanimation targets. Being able to shuffle my yard back into the library with Emrakul should also be nice as I'm usually the first target for things like Crypt.

[TheArchitect]

A friend of mine recently added Steel Hellkite and Malfegor to his scion deck and I must say, there is usually nothing I dread more that seeing him fetch one of those 2.

[Zlatzman]

I'm running Steel Hellkite as well, but I don't really see the value in Malfegor. If fetched with Scion he's just a 6/6 flyer and if I do get him into play somehow discarding my entire hand for sweeping the table doesn't seem like the best play. It could be used as part of a finisher along with Karrthus and Dragonstorm I guess, but it still feels like a too risky move for me.

Personally I've removed Nicol Bolas for Thunder Dragon, due to Bolas being too unpopular in my playgroup.

[sunshine]

I like Malfegor as he can further break the symmetry of things like Living Death, Eureka, Bidding, and even Show and Tell. You can usually just tuck him away in your gy at the end up someone's turn with Scion's ability and if you need to clear the board he's there. I think the deck (as I have gone with it) can really only benefit from a more diversified toolbox. Malffegor offers a pretty unique and possibly devastating effect.


Personally I've removed Nicol Bolas for Thunder Dragon, due to Bolas being too unpopular in my playgroup.

I'm running both at present - I'm curious what your current lineup of dragons looks like? Given that last comment I'm assuming your list linked to in the OP is not up to date.

Also, I've seen some lists running Skithiryx but can't seem to convince myself it's worth a slot. Being able to kill with poison counters is nice I guess, but you've always got general damage if someone gains lots of life. His other upshot is allowing you to give Scion haste and still morph into something else.

[Bane of the Living]

This is one of the first EDH decks we built. I think you should play more mana accel like rampant growth style and less talisman style. Most of the games this deck lost were due to getting the Ravnica lands blown up or early artifact removal.

Artifact removal is becoming much more prevailant in EDH.

[sunshine]

While I agree that artifact destruction can be a problem - I don't like being stuck without a green source if I'm leaning on Rampant Growth effects for acceleration. Armillary Sphere seems like a reasonable option though - which may mean I should stick another basic somewhere.

Also, this version of Scion runs quite well on a relatively small number of mana sources. Unlike the combo oriented builds you spend a lot of time casting draw/discard effects helping you find your lands and dump creatures into the yard for recursion.

I had a note in the OP before, but one of the major reasons I went with the 5c lands + Signets/Talismans instead of Duals/Fetches/Growths is that I'm not a huge fan of shuffle effects in this format and my general does that enough on his own.

[NetherGamer]

A cool card I like for Scion decks is Conspiracy. Swing, what no blocks, okay phage the untouchable. targeting scion, how about emrakul, the aeons torn :) That one is reusable too!

[Zlatzman]

@sunshine: Yeah, I haven't updated the list in my thread in quite a while. As of recently I've just jammed loads of dragons and dragon-related cards into the deck. Sadly there are a few too many good dragons, so there isn't enough room for them all.

Current dragons:
Ancient Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen
Bogardan Hellkite
Broodmate Dragon
Dragon Broodmother
Dragon Tyrant
Flameblast Dragon
Intet, the Dreamer
Hellkite Charger
Hellkite Overlord
Keiga, the Tide Star
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Mordant Dragon
Numot, the Devastator
Oros, the Avenger
Quicksilver Dragon
Rith, the Awakener
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Teneb, the Harvester
Thunder Dragon
Two-Headed Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star

Dragon-related cards:
Dragonskull Summit
Bladewing's Thrall
Dragonspeaker Shaman
Zirilan of the Claw
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Crucible of Fire
Dragonstorm
Slave of Bolas

I also run some cards that are generally just cool: Legacy Weapon, Lurking Predators, Maelstrom Nexus and Mirari's Wake.

[sunshine]

Conspiracy is an interesting idea. I don't think I'd run Phage (unlike Emrakul she isn't Show & Tell/Eureka/Quicksilver Amulet etc. -able), but being able to morph Scion into Emrakul is a pretty solid trick.

I've toyed around with the idea of running Dragonspeaker Shaman, I feel like he often wouldn't last long enough for me to cast more than 1 or 2 Dragons at reatail, and paying 4-5 for the dragon that happens to be in my hand isn't as exciting as paying 2-4 for any of the dragons in my yard (Shaman would likely have to replace a reanimation sell). Might be worth a try though, and if I ever play matches with sideboarding he'd likely get a slot for the case where no one was running mass removal colors.

Maelstrom Nexus may just be cool, but it's really cool. I think I'll give it a try. It's too bad you can't get a cascade the turn you play Nexus since it will likely be carrying a big bullseye.

[Zlatzman]

Dragonspeaker Shaman:
He can be nice for getting out early dragons, but I don't think he's worth it based on power level. Most playgroups have enough mass removal for him to be gone before you've taken advantage of him. My main reason for running him is that he has the word "Dragon" in his text-box.

[sunshine]

Bah, Emrakul is getting the boot. I'm more sad because now I'm not really sure if Show and Tell deserves a spot anymore. I think Eureka can stay on coolness alone but SnT loses a lot of stock.

I don't think there's anything that can really replace Emrakul. Looks like:

- Some instant speed reanimation spells
+ Some more efficient sorcery speed ones

- Emrakul
+ some dragon?

- Show and Tell?
+ Survival?

[Zlatzman]

So, new set means new Dragon. This time: Hellkite Igniter.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114444&d=1295617396
5/5, Flying, Haste, 1R: +X/+0 where X is equal to the number of Artifacts you Control.


The lack of trample probably means he will not see play though, as our current finishers (Hellkite Overlord, Dragon Tyrant) will outperform it in most situations.

[bokwinkle]

honestly, this deck promotes an environment where you play one of 2 decks - countermagic to stop your general, or land-destruction to keep you from playing anything. That's the primary problem with this general - it's way too easy to win unexpectedly in one turn, and decks like that ruin the play environment. Generally, if I see someone pull a 5-color deck then I'm either racing to a crucible/wasteland/stripmine lock down or I'm playing azami and just countering everything they play - usually putting their general on the bottom of their library with hinder or spin - 2 decks I reserve for people that dont' understand that this format is about having fun....not search for land, search for land, play my general, win. This format - more than any other - is about interaction....anyone can put together decks than win in one turn...and we can all sit around a table and watch someone go off...or we can actually play magic - it depends on your playgroup, but generally noone wants to just sit there and watch you jerk off scion.

[sunshine]

@bokwinkle

EDIT: My initial post came off as a little rude so I thought I would filter it down a bit (apologies to bokwinkle).

In the abstract I don't see anything wrong with combo in EDH. Some people are of the opinion that combo isn't in the spirit of EDH and therefore shouldn't be played, and that's fine, though I feel that banning of any strategy (which is explicitly banned by the format rules) is something that individual playgroups will have to come to on their own. If combo decks are indeed a general problem it's up to the rules committee to recognize that, and it is certainly outside the scope of this thread. The particular list in here is not combo oriented but that's not to say there is anything wrong with lists that are - I chose to go in this direction because frankly I think it's more powerful in a multiplayer setting, and I think you get to play cards that are more fun.

re: Hellkite Igniter

I'm not sold on it. I'm hesitant to run dragons that don't do more than attack for damage (Tyrant being the exception since it's *a lot* of damage).

For some reason I always thought Bazaar of Gaghdad was banned in this format... now I need to track down one of those :cry:.

[bokwinkle]

Please bear with me...that wasn't so much directed at you, as much as directed a several other posters that were suggesting the deck go in that direction I shouldn't have use the word "This" when I was talking abou "this deck", as I meant it much broader, and not specifically your deck. I did notice that you powered out your creatures (general or otherwise) with artifacts...not searched for land :). Actually, I was going to commend you on the fact that you weren't even running survival in your original list...but I got on my rant and forgot...lol. The truth is that you could easilly up the power level on your deck a bit and you still wouldn't be too broken as long as you limit your dragon choices. I assure you that a turn 4 Nico - while it's not an Auto-win - is just as bad as a turn 4 dragon tyrant or something equally broken...which is, I'm sure, why you've decided to remove it. I would suggest going with something like dragon mage or something like that which is cool, devestating, completely fun, and (eventually) lethal...but doesn't create and auto-win scenario - and it can blend nicely into a reanimation theme...which is pretty easy to execute with Scion.

Unfortunately, the desire to break this general (and the format) is so common that I always react to this dragon the same way. This general's potential upsets the balance of the format - along with a couple of others. The generals that tutor are pretty much all busted - and this one is in the top 3 or 4 because he also gives access to all 5 colors. I really wish that the color requirement was a hinderance instead of a help, but the reality is that fetches, filters, shock-lands, and true-duals make 5-color down right easy to play...and having access to all of the black tutors, plus survival, Plus Primeval Titan, plus tooth and nail, plus the visions tutors...etc. makes breaking the format incredibly easy. The problem is that none of these cards on their own merit a banning - and most of them don't even need to be watched (seriously, do we really need to worry about mystical tutor breaking the format? lol) but being able to run all of them in conjuction is just aweful...and when you add to that a general that tutors....well, it shouldn't be hard to see why I (or anyone else) would be annoyed when they see someone pull this out accross from them. Tutoring is good for the format, but being able to tutor as will utterly decimates the format...which is exactly what this general is capable of.

Oh, and you're welccome for my opinion....lol.

[sunshine]

Updated list in the OP, managed to get my hands on a couple gems - Bazaar and Strategic Planning. Also, cut a number of creatures in order to fit in more draw/discard as well as a few more mana sources - still pretty light in that department though.

[Zach Tartell]

My mono red Hivis of the Scale deck is going to absolutely destroy your 5c dragons.

[sunshine]

Haha, that's some savage tech... I guess.