[DTB] Sneak Attack

[bfeingersh]

Didn't do so hot at my local event on Thursday, only going 2-2. First round I played against Doug McKay who was running 4x Dungeon Geists in his deck :frown:. I think it was game 2 I had a 1st turn lotus petal which I used for a brainstorm which left me with ancient tomb, 2 more petals, show and tell, Emrakul, spell pierce in my hand. Put down the 2 petals and the tomb, cast show and tell, he force'd, so I cast spell pierce and popped emrakul onto the table while he plopped down dungeon geists. Game 3 the dungeon geists reared its ugly head again locking down my show and tell'd Griselbrand, a few turns later, one revoker on sneak attack and one on lotus petal preventing me from being able to cast firespout to kill the geists and a glen elendra archmage preventing me from being able to try to cast a echoing truth was game over.
What was he playing at the NELCQ yesterday? I saw some of his match and it looked like some kind of Sea Stompy-ish list.

[Jim Higginbottom]

eli and i split the finals @ jupiter games yesterday both on this deck.

[dameus]

Gratz on the finish.

Whew, no longer a Deck-to-Beat. Good.

Is anyone trying to put 1-2 Temporal Mastery in this deck?

[Norm]

Grats to Jaco on the Top 16 finish in SCG Madison :cool:

[bfeingersh]

eli and i split the finals @ jupiter games yesterday both on this deck.

Congrats. I was looking forward to the finals match :(

[Jim Higginbottom]

i played against mono red sneak attack rd 3...the mirror is miserable.

[catmint]

I played with 2 Temporal Mastery a couple of games and the extra turn (extra land drop/extra cantrip) can be the acceleartion to go off "1 turn earlier". Not sure if it is worth it to cut protection for it though.

btw: wher can I find the decklists from the jupiter games finals?

[JPA]

Congrats to Jason Jaco and Dresden Chung for their Top 16 finishs at SCG Open Madison!! Let's get back to Deck to beat :wink:

Edit: Wow, Blood Moon main. That's actually pretty nice, because 1. they won't have enchantment removal game 1, 2. they don't expect it, 3. it just autowins against so much that it might be worth it to take the risk of having a dead card game 1, when the reward is that you just win against the Top Tier decks like RUG. It's also nice against Maverick, because they will usually fetch for duals when they see we are on combo and the Moon shuts down their Karakas.
Very nice tech! I would love to hear Jason Jaco's insight, if he reads this. :-)

[Dresden]

I um...took just about no notes, sorry guys :) I do remember vividly how I lost though, 0-2 vs RUG and notably 1-2 to the T8 Junk deck against the very nice gentleman who offered a draw in G3. I declined since I was on the play vs a deck with no counterspells but I misboarded, misplayed, and mulliganed badly, sigh.


Congrats to Jason Jaco and Dresden Chung for their Top 16 finishs at SCG Open Madison!! Let's get back to Deck to beat :wink:

Edit: Wow, Blood Moon main. That's actually pretty nice, because 1. they won't have enchantment removal game 1, 2. they don't expect it, 3. it just autowins against so much that it might be worth it to take the risk of having a dead card game 1, when the reward is that you just win against the Top Tier decks like RUG. It's also nice against Maverick, because they will usually fetch for duals when they see we are on combo and the Moon shuts down their Karakas.
Very nice tech! I would love to hear Jason Jaco's insight, if he reads this. :-)

[JACO]

Congrats to Jason Jaco and Dresden Chung for their Top 16 finishs at SCG Open Madison!! Let's get back to Deck to beat :wink:

Edit: Wow, Blood Moon main. That's actually pretty nice, because 1. they won't have enchantment removal game 1, 2. they don't expect it, 3. it just autowins against so much that it might be worth it to take the risk of having a dead card game 1, when the reward is that you just win against the Top Tier decks like RUG. It's also nice against Maverick, because they will usually fetch for duals when they see we are on combo and the Moon shuts down their Karakas.
Very nice tech! I would love to hear Jason Jaco's insight, if he reads this. :-)
Ask and ye shall receive. I wrote a report on Eternal Central, which can be found here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2723

I talk about some of the thought process behind the deck, as well as quickly recount the matches throughout the day. Peep it!

[tsabo_tavoc]

Ask and ye shall receive. I wrote a report on Eternal Central, which can be found here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2723

I talk about some of the thought process behind the deck, as well as quickly recount the matches throughout the day. Peep it!

Congrats and thanks for the report, a nice read:laugh:

I believe MD Blood Moon is the way to go considering the prevalence of Mavericks and Tempo blues. I am not comfortable with only 6 cantrips though, especially since you board out Intuitions very often. It seems that in the games you lost, extra Ponders could have helped you digging into the right cards, be it lands or sneaky pieces.

[JPA]

Ask and ye shall receive. I wrote a report on Eternal Central, which can be found here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2723

I talk about some of the thought process behind the deck, as well as quickly recount the matches throughout the day. Peep it!

Awesome! Thank you so much!

Going down on Intuitions and (often) boarding them out after game 1 seems like the right way to go.

About going down on cantrips: I think it's possible, because we just need to assemble our combo of cheater and Griselbrand to basically automatically win the game, since he will "cantrip" enough to finish it off. And I don't see anything else to cut for the main Blood Moons. So cutting 1 Intuition, 2 Ponder seems logical, I will definitely test Jaco's build.

(Matchup analysis coming soon :cool:)

[catmint]

I do not agree. Cantrips should find either combo pieces, lands or protection and since you have to mulligan a lot it is crucial to smooth out draws. If you decide to play blood moon main, I would cut protection for it since that is also what you would proably put in the board instead of blood moon. Also blood moon will often eat a counterspell and can therefore be better compared to spell pierce/flusterstorm/misdirection.

I can also imagine going down to 3 sneak attack since playing blood moon first should give you some more time for the combo.

Blue count is a consideration playing 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection. Not less than 22, 23, 24? I would opt to go on the save side. Blood moon not pitching is surely a disadvantage.

[Dresden]

I also disagree with cutting down on cantrips, the deck is luck-dependent enough as it is and it seems less cantrips would make it more risky.

On day I 1-3'ed the legacy challenge side-event since every time I kept a hand with half of the combo + diggers I failed to find the other half. Day 2 I added 1 Griselbrand to the deck (61 cards), going up to 8 each of both halves of the combo, and was a bit more successful digging for answers, most of my game losses were not due to failure to find a combo piece.

I did not play vs Maverick at all in this event so I have no opinion on the necessity of MD blood moon against this deck. Against RUG however, I'm fairly sure that G1 is in our favor so md BM is not needed and I would rather have the extra counters. Postboard against ALL decks, I would definitely always take out intuition. Both of my match losses were due to one card, 'Extirpate'. Against this card, Griselbrand is not quite as strong unless you're at high life and can get a SA into play and team with Emrakul to swing for the win, and Intuition spells 'I lose'.

Oh and also, although I didn't keep hardly any notes, I remember bits and pieces so if anybody has questions I hope to help. Inexperience on my part in playing this deck led to a couple of misplays otherwise I think T8 was a distinct possibility :) Thank you all for this thread, which gave me the deck idea, sb cards, etc.


I do not agree. Cantrips should find either combo pieces, lands or protection and since you have to mulligan a lot it is crucial to smooth out draws. If you decide to play blood moon main, I would cut protection for it since that is also what you would proably put in the board instead of blood moon. Also blood moon will often eat a counterspell and can therefore be better compared to spell pierce/flusterstorm/misdirection.

I can also imagine going down to 3 sneak attack since playing blood moon first should give you some more time for the combo.

Blue count is a consideration playing 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection. Not less than 22, 23, 24? I would opt to go on the save side. Blood moon not pitching is surely a disadvantage.

[Einherjer]

Ask and ye shall receive. I wrote a report on Eternal Central, which can be found here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2723

I talk about some of the thought process behind the deck, as well as quickly recount the matches throughout the day. Peep it!

Congrats!

One question: You mulliganed like 9 out of 10 times and still feel comfortable with running 19 lands? You mentioned most of the time that you struggled with your manabase or mulliganed away land-light hands? Wouldnt it be a logic conclusion to up your count of lands? Maybe by one Volcanic Island? Then youd play my manabase :)

Greetings

[JACO]

One question: You mulliganed like 9 out of 10 times and still feel comfortable with running 19 lands? You mentioned most of the time that you struggled with your manabase or mulliganed away land-light hands? Wouldnt it be a logic conclusion to up your count of lands? Maybe by one Volcanic Island? Then youd play my manabase :)I thought about playing another basic Island, but I think the manabase is OK. Some of the time I was mulliganing either because of no lands or more often because my hands would be something like 2 lands, all 4 Sneak Attacks, and a Spell Pierce. Weird hands like that are auto-mulls, and I was getting many of them early (less of them late). Against the RUG Delver deck they were land light mulligans. If the metagame stays like it was this past weekend I would probably play the same manabase that I did in Madison.

[JPA]

I also disagree with cutting down on cantrips, the deck is luck-dependent enough as it is and it seems less cantrips would make it more risky.

On day I 1-3'ed the legacy challenge side-event since every time I kept a hand with half of the combo + diggers I failed to find the other half. Day 2 I added 1 Griselbrand to the deck (61 cards), going up to 8 each of both halves of the combo, and was a bit more successful digging for answers, most of my game losses were not due to failure to find a combo piece.

I did not play vs Maverick at all in this event so I have no opinion on the necessity of MD blood moon against this deck. Against RUG however, I'm fairly sure that G1 is in our favor so md BM is not needed and I would rather have the extra counters. Postboard against ALL decks, I would definitely always take out intuition. Both of my match losses were due to one card, 'Extirpate'. Against this card, Griselbrand is not quite as strong unless you're at high life and can get a SA into play and team with Emrakul to swing for the win, and Intuition spells 'I lose'.

Oh and also, although I didn't keep hardly any notes, I remember bits and pieces so if anybody has questions I hope to help. Inexperience on my part in playing this deck led to a couple of misplays otherwise I think T8 was a distinct possibility :) Thank you all for this thread, which gave me the deck idea, sb cards, etc.

I would like to know if Flusterstorm did anything for you that Spell Pierce didn't. And how was Leyline of the Void? Did you encounter any graveyard-based decks and did you mull down to the Leyline there?
What would you change in your list if you played the deck again?

[Dresden]

My buddy Alex and I played the exact same deck day 1, except he had 3 pierces and I had 3 flusterstorms. Day 2 he ran with pierces as well and I was partially convinced by him to split into 2 flusterstorm, 1 pierce. Afterwards we both agreed, irrespective of our results that some number of flusterstorms is better than pierces.

Throughout the weekend I never found a reason to use spell pierce and the couple of times I drew it it wasn't relevant. I think about the only cards relevant for pierce vs flusterstorm are Jace, Liliana, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge...pretty short list right? With 12 counters in the deck, if I lose a counterwar and they land a planeswalker then I still have a chance to Sneak in and bash face. If Humility/Ensnaring Bridge lands, well GG but I think our matchup against that archetype should be fairly good due to a slow clock and our natural number of counters.

My main reason for Flusterstorm vs pierce just came down to just a better matchup against combo. If you have flusterstorm vs pierce, the matchup against combo improves - storm, high tide, dreams halls, etc. and it is more likely that you can win counterwars against control decks.

Quick summary on what I played against:
R1: Affinity, 2-1
R2: RUG, 2-1 - lost G1 to triple counters
R3: BUG, 2-1 - very close game and I might have lost this one if opponent didn't get a game loss G1 for accidentally playing with 59 cards.
R4: Stoneblade, 2-1
R5: RUG, 2-0
R6: Nic Fit, 1-2 - extirpate ftl
R7: RUG, 0-2 - extirpate ftl, I'm an idiot landing griselbrand instead of emrakul..
R8: High Tide, 2-0

I didn't get to play against maverick nor dredge so no idea on how good the leyline of the void would have worked out. The only matchup I would have boarded it against among my opponents was High Tide, and I may have misboarded G2 by not bringing them in but I got lucky and won anyways.

As for what changes I would make in the future, not sure man - I got most of my ideas from you guys :) I was debating cutting intuition as well and eagerly read all the arguments to and for it in this thread but ultimately decided to run 2 MD since it slightly increases the number of keepable hands. I found myself mulliganing a fair amount throughout the weekend and not having to mulligan as much may have produced better results (I mulliganed to a not-really-keepable-5 cards in both R6 and R7 in losing to RUG and NicFit).

P.S. I just read Drew's article on how to beat RUG on SCG, mentioning SneakShow! I agree that our manabase is a bit tough and like Jaco says, keeping a hand with more lands is often not a bad idea. I do think that our RUG matchup is pretty good though, esp G1 where landing emrakul is generally game. I didn't lose to wasteland/stifle the whole weekend except for when I intentionally ran a fetch into a stifle to prevent it being used for the more important sneak attack next turn although this may be attributed to T1-Delver RUG players. It probably also helped that I always fetched for basics - most games I never fetched for volc island.

[catmint]

If Humility/Ensnaring Bridge lands, well GG but I think our matchup against that archetype should be fairly good due to a slow clock and our natural number of counters.

It is a really bad batchup and there is not a lot we can do to change that. If we would have a positive matchup against a hardcore control deck with counterbalance, counterspells and many lockpieces we would break the format. :)

I tested A LOT against my buddy plaing this deck and g1 was slightly in our favour because as you said we have more counterspells. G2 he brings in 9 cards including needle, canonist, more counterspells, surgical extraction,... and from then on you have maybe a 30% chance to win a game. You basically only win if you have a strong draw and they have to mull to a weak hand.

Against other counter-top thopters lists I played online, even the first game was already negative. They played trinket-mage/needle and Terminus MD. They can also make a simple play like EOT e. tutor to blank our show&tell.

[Blitzbold]

I played with 2 Temporal Mastery a couple of games and the extra turn (extra land drop/extra cantrip) can be the acceleartion to go off "1 turn earlier". Not sure if it is worth it to cut protection for it though.

btw: wher can I find the decklists from the jupiter games finals?

I was looking for them as well and found them: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/12252/may-12-2012-nelc-legacy-coverage

[DeppChef]

Nicolas Crepelle from France just made it into Top 8 at Bazaar of Moxen in France under 723 buddies with this:

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

4 Lotus Petal

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD :

3 Magus of the Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

No Dazes and Leylines, Magus of the Moon instead of Blood Moon. Only 2 Intuitions. Looking forward for a hopefully coming report.

http://www.watchdamatch.com/Articles/Magic/Coverage-et-News/MTG-BOM-2012-MAIN-EVENT-LEGACY.html

[Blitzbold]

JPAnghelescu went 7-2 according to my information. As that's all I heard so far I am also looking forward to his list and report. :)

[catmint]

I went 4:1 in my local tourney today winning me a Scrubland.

The list:

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

3 Lotus Petal

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
3 Blood Moon



Round 1: 2:0 vs. monored burn.
Quick S&T in both games. Misdirecting a bolt to a Figure of Destiny to buy time in G2.
No board since opponent does not board, so Intuitions can stay in.

Round 2: 2:0 vs. my buddy with counter-top thopters
Pretty bad matchup since he is running humility/ensnaring bridge main, but I had very strong draws.

G1: Very good hand: Sneak attack, Emrakul and tons of counters. After wiping his board he quickly finds new lands with SD.top and I have to counter an ensnaring bridge 3 times due to his Academy Ruins before I finnally find a 2nd creature.

G2: He wins a counter war over a canonist. Oblivion rings my first sneak attack. Second sneack attack is answered by e. tutor for pithing needle, but I have the bounce spell in hand. Wiping his board with emrakul he again lands the needle for sneak attack next turn, but I draw S&T for my Griselbrand

Boarding: -2 Intuition, -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Redblast +2 Echoing Truth

Round 3: 2:0 vs. Reanimator
G1: Opponent mulls to 5, looses counter war over entomb and gets sneak-attacked.
G2: let him entom band blow out the reanimation spell with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction, Force of Will in hand. Sneak attack soon afterwards.

Boarding: -3 Show & Tell, -3 Lotus Petal, -1 Intuition, - 1 Emrakul, -1 Griselbrand, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Grafdiggers Cage, +2 Echoing Truth, + 2 Blood Moon

Round 4: 1:2 vs. UW Stoneblade
PLayed against this build before. Straight UW with 4 Wastelands more counterspells main and 3 canonist, 2 Pithing needle in the SB.

G1: Quick S&T with 2 counterspells backup
G2: Mull to 6. Keep a hand with 2 animals no cantrips and draw 3 Griselbrand for a quick loose.

G3: questionable keep of 7: 4 lands, 1 FoW, 1 Flusterstorm 1 Sneak Attack. Not having the cantrip hurt a lot since I just draw lands. I force his needle and he resolves a canonist with some counterspells in hand.

Boarding: -2 Intuition, -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Redblast ,+2 Echoing Truth

Round 5: 2:0 vs UR Burn
Combo off quick both games facing only 1 counterspell each game.

Conclusion: Loved it! Had a pretty good run though except for the 2 games versus UW Stoneblade I lost. I am boarding out intuitions a lot becuase of extractions and feel every hand with a cantrip has a lot more value. Therefore possible changes: -1 pierce or flusterstorm +1 Preordain and since there is a ton of UW in the meta +1 Red-blast, -1 Surcigal in the SB.

[Final Fortune]

Instead of Blood Moon, I think we should really tryout Cursed Totem in our SBs, because I have been play testing Cursed Totem vs Maverick on Cockatrice lately and it has completely neutered most of their threat base.

[Tenbin]

Instead of Blood Moon, I think we should really tryout Cursed Totem in our SBs, because I have been play testing Cursed Totem vs Maverick on Cockatrice lately and it has completely neutered most of their threat base.

Thing is, Blood Moon stops Karakas, which is really the most dangerous thing that they have against us; Cursed Totem does stop their creatures but with Emrakul and Griselbrand we should quite easily race their threats anyway.

@Catmint: Congratulations on the great finish :D I'm gonna go down to 2 Intuition as well now, feels like the better number

[Einherjer]

catmint: How do you feel with 3 Misdirection? Isn`t it a little over the top? I would rather cut a Misdirection than a U Counterspell. And how do you feel about 3 petals? Isnt it minimizing the chances for SneakAttack into Griselbrand into Emrakul? I wouldnt leave home without these playset of Petals.

And once again I have to critizice the manabases you all seem to run, heres the one I do run:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Scalding Tarn

3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
6 Island

Whats the difference? First of all you guys play 1-4 more Fetchlands, on cost of 1 Sol-Land and Islands. Some of you add even a 4th Volcanic. First of all you open yourself to mana-denial strategies, speaking of Canadian. Its been quite a fair-good matchup, but if you run a manabase like this itll be getting considerable worse. On the other hand it may lead to a two-side-blow-out when you land a Blood Moon from a Ancient Tomb + Volcanic Island. Guys like you play 2-4 Islands. How are you going to find them? I play 6 and therefore its pretty easy to find some Islands in order to win the game. I would really beg all of you to reconsider your structure of the manabase!

Greetings

[catmint]

I love the 3 Misdirections. The reason why I rather want to cut a Pierce than a misdirection for the Preordain is that I often cannot use the pierce because the mana is tight AND because it is often the case that you have something like: S&T, Griselbrand, FoW, Misdirection, Ponder; Spell Pierce. Pondering for an additional land and an additional blue card to have 3 counterspells backup is worse than just going for it much earlier with 2 hard counters I think. The misdirection is also supergood versus edict/discard and at redirection burn to the face from UR/Burn/Rug to a creature.

Concerning the manabase:
Good Point on the 4th Volcanic. An Island would be better imo.
However I don't like your manabase very much. The fetchlands are super important to get more value out of brainstorm so 7 is the minimum. You have to know how to play versus stifle decks and there will be situations where you are forced to play right into stifle but that is a much less bigger concern that the overall utility of brainstorm/fetchland. Also with only 8 red sources, did you had the problem of not getting red mana?

3 vs. 4 Petals is close imo, but the consideration is not that I cannot win in the same turn with sneak attack/Griselbrand because I am missing 1 petal. I just pass the turn with a full hand hope to win the next turn. The situations where this is relevant are rather rare. I think the 20th land or the 11th counterspell are more valuable than the 4th Petal.

[menace13]

2 to 4 Islands seems to be the average with 2 to 3 Volcanic. Despite Stifle, around 8 fetchlands are needed since red is vital to one half of the combo and after board. Trying to find double red mana on the same turn for Sneak is easier as well. Ponder and Brainstorm are harder to abuse, Preordain might be better in a list with less fetchlands.

Grisslebrand has made the deck even better having 2 top 8's in Bazzar Of Moxen and the recent SCGs event.

[JPA]

I made 51. of 723 at the Bazaar, losing the first 2 rounds against decks I didn't expect to be played (merfolk one of them...), and winning the next 7. I didn't play Sneak Show, but my own Show and Tell build, since I saw A LOT of Sneak Show and wanted to improve my mirror match.

I will write more as soon as I got some sleep and recovered from 4 days of non-stop Magic. :wink:

[rxavage]

This is what I'm considering playing at a gpt next week and the scg in worcester


CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

SPELLS 28
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal

LANDS 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD
3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 REB
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroclasm



I've been playing without city of traitors up until now. What is the optimal way to utilize CoT?

[Einherjer]

The mainboard is good. (its same as mine) The manabase is as everyone else seems to play it, but I would like to hear your opinion about the sideboard....

If you dont want to play Leyline, thats fine, but why 4 Relics? They cost :1:! And for this :1: you could play Grafdiggers Cage which has a much larger impact than the Relic right?

[rxavage]

Here is my reasoning behind relic: I've played both reanimator and dredge, cage slows you down but is by no means a blowout. Playing either of those decks I would rather have seen cage over any of the other forms of hate. Other decks that utilize the grave yard in a different way are also on the rise ie nicfit and aggro loam. Being able to target your own grave in response to surgical extraction is the biggest reason. I've read alot of people saying that getting extracted cost them the game.

Why is leyline so important?

[Final Fortune]

Anybody have any experience with Top in here?

[JPA]

So, here is what I played at the BoM after seeing that I had to beat Sneak Show and Tempo RUG in order to achieve something:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Show and Tell
4 Through the Breach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lotus Petal
2 Gitaxian Probe

2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

SB:

3 Boseiju, who shelters all
4 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth
2 Firespout
3 Grafdigger's Cage

I guess I have to explain. ;-)

So, this is definitely the slower version of Sneak Show, but more consistent and kind of a rogue attempt at a Show and Tell deck. I played only 2 Petals and 20 lands, with only 4 Sol-lands, because I wanted to be on the less brutal and fast and more safe side for this tournament.

When you are playing against Tempo RUG, the only problem is to resolve your Show and Tell / Through the Breach, after that you have basically won. In order to make this easier, I played a strong countersuit main and Boseiju/Stifle (vs wasteland, karakas, Maze, etc.) in the sideboard.

It worked very well and I especially loved the situations where my opponent played a Needle game 2 on turn 1 naming "Sneak Attack". I pretended to think about it, then let it resolve and saw how my opponent's face brightened. 3 Turns later a hasted Blightsteel Colossus killed him. :-)
The Colossus is also great against Storm and creatureless decks in general while being very bad vs Goblins (one of my losses in the 2nd tournament on sunday).

The maindeck Gitaxian Probe is for the Sneak Show matchup so Show and Tell doesn't turn into a dead card there. And it also gave me important information against other decks, to know if I can go off without getting countered. To top it off, a Turn 1 Probe into Volcanic Island into Ponder makes your opponent always think you are on storm combo. Next Turn you lay the City of Traitors and play Show and Tell, awesome feeling.

So basically this Show and Tell version was designed for this special event, after I played the classic Sneak Grisel in the trials on Thursday.

My only losses were to Junk with maindeck edicts and Merfolk, both of them I didn't expect at all.

So here is what I played against:

Saturday Main event:

Round 1 vs Junk

In game 1 he just scoops it up after I resolve Turn 2 Emrakul and misdirected an Inquisition of Kozilek.

+ 4 Stifle
- 2 Gitaxian Probe
- 2 Intuition

Game 2 I get an early Emrakul again, but he has 2 Edicts in 1 turn. I can counter 1 of them, the other one resolves.

Game 3 I get a Blightsteel Colossus online in turn 3, but he has Liliana, who wins the game for him.


0-1

Round 2 vs Merfolk

Game 1 he wins the roll and starts with Cursecatcher... So strong vs Show and Tell. Turn 3/4 Emrakul isn't enough and I get overrun by the blue men.

+ 3 Firespout
+ 2 Echoing Truth
- 2 Intuition
- 3 Daze

I don't board Boseiju, because Merfolk is way too aggressive and I need my action at turn 2 if possible.

But... This deck isn't designed to beat Merfolk, so I lose game 2 similarly. :-)

0-2 :mad:

Round 3 vs Zoo

Ahhhhh a free win, finally!!! My opponent is new to Legacy and I feel bad when he plays a Chain Lightning at 3 life and shooting it back...
Game 2 I daze his Pridemage so my Colossus can 1 shot him.
I boarded the Firespouts and Echoing Truths, taking out Misdirection, Spell Pierce, 1 Probe. Or something like that. xD

1-2

Round 4 and 5 vs Maverick

Well, both rounds went the same and I was motivated to win everything after my bad start. So, my opponents mull to hands with Knight, take out their Swords to Plowshares and die to Hierarch vs Blightsteel Colossus fight. I took out the Misdirections, Pierces, Intuiton, Probes and boarded 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Firespout, 4 Stifle.

3-2, getting better! :cool:

Round 6 vs UG Vengevine Fauna Elves

Game 1 he overruns me, I cant counter his 3rd turn Glimpse and he wins through Emrakul.

+ 3 Echoing Truth
+ 2 Firespout
- 3 Daze
- 2 Misdirection

I probe him on turn 1, seeing that he plays Blue (1 Spell Pierce, 1 Intuition). He does some crazy Elf action on his turn 2 and I resolve a Turn 3 Show and Tell into Blightsteel Colossus after a little counterwar.
Next Turn I attack him, he chumps with a Nettle Sentinel, putting him on 9 poison. He intuitions for Metamorph EOT and plays it, copying my Colossus, while my hand is Island, Fetchland. He puts me on 4 life in this turn and has the Colossus copy and about 10 other elves on the battlefield.
I topdeck.... a Firespout! Not only do I wipe his whole elf army of the board, but also his Colossus gets 3 damage, going to 8 toughness, so I can attack with my trampling monster for the lethal poison. Awesome game.

Game 3 is also very close, but I have 2 Force of Wills for his 2 Glimpses in 1 turn. Very exciting games, my longest match that day.

4-2

Round 7 vs Tempo RUG

Finally :-)

Game 1 I probe him on Turn 3, after only playing lands for the first 3 turns. I have double counterbackup for his 2 counters and Emrakul seals the deal.

+4 Stifle
+3 Boseiju, who shelters all
-2 Intuition
-3 Daze
-2 Gitaxian Probe

I keep a hand with Boseiju, he doesn't have a Wasteland and a hasted Colossus ends it on turn 3.

5-2

Round 8 vs Loam

Game 1 he topdecks a Karakas before Emrakul can kill him, but the Colossus follows shortly thereafter, and he has no answer.

+4 Stifle
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Misdirection
-3 Daze

Game 2 I hastly annihilate him on Turn 4 but don't get a second chance to put a fatty into play (that's where Sneak Attack is better) and his 10/10 Knight kills me on Turn 10 or something. xD

Game 3 I stifle his Maze and the Colossus kills him.

6-2

Only 1 more round and I might make it to Top 64

Round 9 vs Lands piloted by the Russian Legacy Champ

Lands is generally a pretty nice matchup, especially for my build, because it applies no pressure at all. I win game 1 very early, and game 2 with Stifle.

7-2

Yay, I finish 51 of 723 and win a Badlands (better than nothing).

On sunday, I play the other Big Legacy (99 players) and finish 10th, losing to Goblins and GW (he has Maze, Karakas in his starting hand), winning a Bayou; played the same list as on saturday, to test it more.

After watching the Vintage finals on Sunday we drove all night from France to Germany, my buddies dropped me off at a station 2 hours away from where I live and I arrived completely exhausted and with a nasty, nasty cold at 10 am. So excuse me if I made mistakes in my report.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I liked playing something slightly different from Sneak Show and enjoyed how my plans sometimes worked out just as I imagined.

[mrjumbo03]

I topdeck.... a Firespout! Not only do I wipe his whole elf army of the board, but also his Colossus gets 3 damage, going to 8 toughness, so I can attack with my trampling monster for the lethal poison. Awesome game.

Does it work like that? I'm not sure if its toughness goes down due to damage.

[Esper3k]

Does it work like that? I'm not sure if its toughness goes down due to damage.

With trampling creatures, you only have to assign lethal damage to the blocker before you can assign the rest to the defending player.

So the Blightsteel had 11 toughness with 3 damage on it, he could assign 8 damage to the blocking Blightsteel (which is lethal to it), and then assign the remaining 3 to the defending player.

This is also hilarious if you have a Deathtouch Trampling creature.

[mrjumbo03]

Oh I see. Brainfart on my part, he just made a shortcut in his explanation. Awesome tourney by the way, what with starting 0-2 and ravaging through the rest of the matches to finish top 64.

[Justin]

Anybody have any experience with Top in here?

I tried Top for a while, but I eventually dropped it in favor of more cantrips. Top can be nice off a turn 1 Ancient Tomb because you can cast it and look during the same turn. However, you generally don't want to drop Tomb first unless (1)you know your opponent is not playing Wasteland or (2) you don't have a Daze (with Daze it's better to drop an island, obviously). Top seems best in control and mid-range decks. For a "combo" deck like this that wants to drop a fatty within the first few turns, Top is too slow. I prefer to just run cantrips and draw a card right away for U mana.

[Esper3k]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the 2nd place finish this deck also made at SCG this past weekend?

Hopefully it'll push the deck back to DTB status.

[catmint]

Brainstorm >>> Top because it's brainstorm...
Ponder >> Top because you can shuffle.
Preordain > Top because I play 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection and very often Pitch a cantrip as my last blue card to have double counter backup.

Top is surely better in the control matchup, but I rather play the 1st Preordain than the 1st SD.top. Also Ponder/Preordain are often 1 turn faster. Not relevant in grindy matchups where Top is good but in all the aggro/burn/combo matchups where ever turn counts.

Also blue count is an issue imo. I do not have any math calculation but playing 7 "FoW" I am careful cutting any of my 23 blue cards.

[wizard_of_gore]

I'm working on this deck, and i really like it, but i have to ask You a question

Guys, do you think that show and tell could be banned in near future for some reason? We all know that show and tell is enabler, and it's not played only in this deck. Plus - griselbrand boost show and tell, so is there any chance that this deck survives if S&T gets axe? Is there any other option to play then beside sneak attack ?

[Thorondor]

I am pretty sure that show and tell won't get banned in the near future, these decks are nice and do broken things but they are not 100% consistent and can be beaten.

to me it does not sound imbalanced so you can easily buy them. ;-)

[wizard_of_gore]

I am pretty sure that show and tell won't get banned in the near future, these decks are nice and do broken things but they are not 100% consistent and can be beaten.

to me it does not sound imbalanced so you can easily buy them. ;-)

Well, this is kinda relief :smile: I want to say, if we are in constant fear of printing of powerful permanent which may break show and tell, then i don't know what it could be and is it possible to be better than griselbrand... :D

sry for bad grammer

[menace13]

Well, this is kinda relief :smile: I want to say, if we are in constant fear of printing of powerful permanent which may break show and tell, then i don't know what it could be and is it possible to be better than griselbrand... :D

sry for bad grammer

Grissle is just a dumb card. Even if SNT starts to dominate top 8's, WOTC has shown that they will take their time to ban. So, we get a few months to play and sell.

[Einherjer]

Grissle is just a dumb card. Even if SNT starts to dominate top 8's, WOTC has shown that they will take their time to ban. So, we get a few months to play and sell.

When will you know when to sell? If everyone calls for a ban? Then nobody will buy your cards...

Greetings

[menace13]

When will you know when to sell? If everyone calls for a ban? Then nobody will buy your cards...

Greetings

They usually ban things after a few months of huge non stop placings. Survival and Misstep both took at least 3 months.

I want to add that I think with Grissle there becomes even less things than before that the deck has to counter. Misdirection might be correct to max out on now since a counterspell on SnT/Sneak is the only thing that matters. Not like this is new or recent change with how the deck plays, but Grissle drawing and Lifelink on a finisher is so over the top that Spell Pierce most likely isn't needed.

[lordofthepit]

I took this deck for a spin recently and went 4-0, dropping one game to the mirror. The non-mirror matches lasted less than 5 minutes if you didn't count shuffling and mulliganing. It was fun trash talking to my friends and being done early, but I didn't feel like I was playing Magic.

I don't think the deck puts up enough numbers to warrant any bannings, but Show and Tell is simply a busted card that is probably on the DCI's watch list to begin with. Between this deck, Hive Mind, and Dream Halls, there is a possibility that these decks will put up more Top 8s, although RUG Delver makes many of the other options less attractive.

That being said, there are many ways to fight this deck, and I personally think the format will adjust just as it did with Reanimator.

[The Colonel]

I wouldn't worry about the ban hammer at all. This deck may get popular but it's not overpowered. I mean think about it... our entire deck pretty much gets funneled through one card. Counter (which is everywhere) S&T and you shoot the deck down for at least 3 turns. The if you Extract (which is EVERYWHERE) S&T it's pretty much over for the deck. Yes you have Sneak but S&T is the primary wincon. DCI bans cards that are not only broken and detremental to the format state but also these cards have redundancies. S&T isn't detrimental to the format state OR redundent. Meaning it can't protect it'self like Survival could. So go ahead and spend your160 bucks on a playset. You'll be able to use them 5 years from now and they'll still be good 5 years from now. Also I could see S&T going up to 60 bucks 5 years from now. So it'll be a good investment. I bought mine at 25 a peice X amount of years ago. I like my return :cool:

[S1N1STER]

I bought mine at 25 a peice X amount of years ago. I like my return :cool:

I picked mine up about a year ago for $22-25 per so when I picked up a Japanese one recently and found out that I could trade my extra copy in to a store for $31 in credit I was pleasantly surprised.

[wizard_of_gore]

Anyway, in case of banings, what would be the best replacement for show and tell? something like fold into aether or something else? Is there any chance this deck survives if banings happens?

[TheMinel]

Eureka, but would need green...actually I've seen a build with both, it was quite a nice version too.

[JPA]

Anyway, in case of banings, what would be the best replacement for show and tell? something like fold into aether or something else? Is there any chance this deck survives if banings happens?

Well, for cheating big creatures into play there are several strategies that could replace Show and Tell: Mono Red Sneak Attack Through The Breach Pyromancy Mana Ramp (it's actually quite strong; ask me if you want a sample list :wink:), Hypergenesis with Eureka, Reanimator, Polymorph with Eureka, etc etc

The deck Sneak Show itself would die of course, but the strategy would remain.

Edit: But why think about that? It isn't banned so enjoy it! :-)

[catmint]

Why should it be banned. Not even close to break the format. Sneak & Show is probably the best combodeck atm, but it has consitency problems compared to the 3 color aggro/control decks and can be hated out (just not aseasily as reanimator or storm).

[rxavage]

Why should it be banned. Not even close to break the format. Sneak & Show is probably the best combodeck atm, but it has consitency problems compared to the 3 color aggro/control decks and can be hated out (just not aseasily as reanimator or storm).

SneakShow is a meta call, just like maverick was before. Some people think their pet deck should have game against everything and don't like losing. On top of it Griselbrand makes the deck a little more resilient to counterspells and removal so the game against control has improved and people haven't had enough time to playtest the match extensively and lose when they'd been winning before so they panic and call for bannings.

[JPA]

Why should it be banned. Not even close to break the format. Sneak & Show is probably the best combodeck atm, but it has consitency problems compared to the 3 color aggro/control decks and can be hated out (just not aseasily as reanimator or storm).

Maybe also because the Tempo decks require more skill to achieve their goals than Sneak Show does. ;-)

Sneak Show has raw power, is probably the most "brutal" deck. I still don't think they will ban it, it is slightly overpowered with Griselbrand now, but even Maverick can hate it out with stuff like Wing Shards.

[Einherjer]

How about updating the primer now? :P

Ive had great results while playtesting with my list. And I will take it to a tournament on Sunday. My list atm is:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

3 Volcanic Island

1 Mountain
3 Island

4 Lotus Petal

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
1 Preordrain

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt

3 Trinisphere

3 Blood Moon

2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast

The expected meta is combo, combo, dredge, combo, dredge, dredge, Maverick, UW Control, that is why I play this strange-looking sideboard. But considering the mainboard, I am still instisting that THIS is the optimum, or actually pretty near it...
...still feedback is appreciated - Im always open for new thoughts :)
Greetings

[Deez_Naughts]

You need more fetch lands. This deck has to able to consistently fetch a red source, shuffle away Brainstorm residuals, and go for basic islands. With 6x Sol lands and only 6x fetch lands, I can see issues arrising.

[Einherjer]

I might add more Fetchlands, but due to an completly different cause. I will cut the Blood Moons from my sideboard as they disappointed me in the Maverick-testing-session this afternoon. Ill will add 3 Pithing Needles instead, which are good vs Karakas aswell plus offer usefulness in other match-ups aswell! What are your experiences with Maverick? Mavericks in my meta tend to play 2 Savannah, which is making them a loot stronger vs Blood Moon.

What would you cut for more Fetchlands? 1 Island?

[JPA]

Yes, you should/could cut 1 Island or 1 Volcanic for more Fetchies. Otherwise your maindeck looks nice. If you think the sideboard will be good for that event, then you should play it like that. Just know that Blood Moon is one of our strongest SB-cards.

I will update the primer as soon as I find the time and motivation. ;-) Probably after SCG Nashville, if someone places awesomely with Sneak Show. :wink:

[rxavage]

I plan on taking a SCG Worcester in a few weeks with a similar main to phillip's. :wink:

[bfeingersh]

I plan on taking a SCG Worcester in a few weeks with a similar main to phillip's. :wink:

I'll be there with a similar list too. No Intuitions for me though.

[rxavage]

I'll be there with a similar list too. No Intuitions for me though.


So looks like we'll be splitting for 1/2 at the buncha duals next weekend?


I've been questioning the inclusion of intuition in sneakshow as well as dream halls and people insist they are a necessity. What are you runnning in its place? How has this worked for you? Up until now I've had to test with one intuition and no city of traitor's, my wife indulged for my bday which is actually the weekend of the SCG, so I have no comparison and just assumed they were better.

[whienot]

What would you cut for more Fetchlands? 1 Island?

Cut 1 Volcanic. The deck doesn't need 3, and rarely wants to see one in the opener. Keep the 4 basics; being able to cast Sneak Attack on basics alone is pretty good.

What I'm currently testing:

4x Sneak Attack
4x Show and Tell

4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Griselbrand

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

4x Force of Will
4x Misdirection
3x Dispel

3x Intuition

4x Lotus Petal
4x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
4x Scalding Tarn
3x U Fetch
3x Island
1x Mountain
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Blood Moon
3x Wipe Away

The maindeck is focused on winning the counterwar and stopping removal. I'm not sold on 4x Misdirections yet, but it is still being tested. Dispel over Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm is an experiment. It's a hard counter in matches where you get into the late game, stops most removal, and is solid against burn & storm. You don't get to interact with Planeswalkers as much, but Sneak Attack beats walkers, Karakas and company.

Regarding Flusterstorm, the card is better against opposing combo strategies than winning the counter war. If they have another counter after you Flusterstorm, they'll just aim it at your original Show & Tell/Sneak Attack. Seems that having the last hard-counter is better. Am I missing something here?

[Deez_Naughts]

I might add more Fetchlands, but due to an completly different cause. I will cut the Blood Moons from my sideboard as they disappointed me in the Maverick-testing-session this afternoon. Ill will add 3 Pithing Needles instead, which are good vs Karakas aswell plus offer usefulness in other match-ups aswell! What are your experiences with Maverick? Mavericks in my meta tend to play 2 Savannah, which is making them a loot stronger vs Blood Moon.

What would you cut for more Fetchlands? 1 Island?

-1 Island -1 Volcanic

I have found maverick a relatively easy match up, as the plan is basiacally keep them off Knight, and to a lesser extent, Teeg. Post board, Blood Moon shuts them down completely, or hinders their board development long enough to combo. I also don't mind bringing in echoing truth in this match up.

Pithing Needle is very narrow in the sense that it does not do anything, they can simply continue playing out their hand, and find an awnser, where as Moon is a lock piece, which is also a bomb against x/x/x color decks like RUG, etc;

If your meta is combo and dredge heavy, I would suggest:

3x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Trinisphere
3x Blood Moon
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Echoing Truth

This gives you a soild board against combo, dredge, maverick, while retaining elements to fight RUG.

[Einherjer]

Thank you for the input. Ill do -1 Volcanic +1 Fetchland, but only because I do not expect any Tempo-decks. Considering the Sideboard - Grafdiggers Cage is still coming via post.. so no Cages for this tourney.
I will play the sideboard posted above, and report to you guys how it worked out.

Greetings

[JPA]

I just found a deck tech video of Nicolas Crepelle explaining his Sneak Show deck that finished Top 4 at the Bazaar of Moxen last weekend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TOvGDnIZY

I know a little French, so I could understand parts, but it would be nice if a Frenchman could sum up Nicolas' thoughts for everyone to understand.

And there was obviously a mistake in the list reported on all websites. The 2 "Through the Breach" in the sideboard are actually Vendilion Cliques.

Congrats on his awesome finish!

[Final Fortune]

They usually ban things after a few months of huge non stop placings. Survival and Misstep both took at least 3 months.

I want to add that I think with Grissle there becomes even less things than before that the deck has to counter. Misdirection might be correct to max out on now since a counterspell on SnT/Sneak is the only thing that matters. Not like this is new or recent change with how the deck plays, but Grissle drawing and Lifelink on a finisher is so over the top that Spell Pierce most likely isn't needed.

The problem with Force of Will and Misdirection is that they're resource intensive, and in the case of Misdirection it doesn't do anything to protect you from your opponent's threats i.e. Infernal Tutor and Breakthrough type cards from Storm and Dredge respectively. Our deck is very much control-combo in the "who's the beatdown" vs certain match ups, and while Dredge is addressable post-board I wouldn't give Storm a "free" game up just for Misdirection.

[menace13]

The problem with Force of Will and Misdirection is that they're resource intensive, and in the case of Misdirection it doesn't do anything to protect you from your opponent's threats i.e. Infernal Tutor and Breakthrough type cards from Storm and Dredge respectively. Our deck is very much control-combo in the "who's the beatdown" vs certain match ups, and while Dredge is addressable post-board I wouldn't give Storm a "free" game up just for Misdirection.

You still have 4 fow 3 Daze. Misdirect also misdirects discard spells, strangely....

[catmint]

From my testing I felt not very good about the Maverick matchup, which does not really fit to the picture that i often read which suggests it is very much in our favour.

My feeling is that a skilled maverick opponent can get an edge over us:
Things I am facing:

- I don't want to Show&Tell into Emrakul and hope they don't have knight. I think it's a bad play, so the combo is weakened by the fact that you have to show&tell into Griselbrand and then win with the 7 cards you draw with sneak attack. If that happens Turn 2 we should be ok, life total is an issue since they can attack exhalted and setting up the sneak attack board wipe is also not that easy.

- The problem with the sneak attack plan is that they have "endless" pridemages, which not only messes with the blood moon plan, but it is pretty easy for them to setup knight (-> karakas) and pridgemage. That forces you to have Sneak attack + 2 activations for Emrakul in 1 turn. This 6 mana (3 RED mana!!) can be quite a lot. If they have Thalia out and/or use Knight to get wastelands this can become quite challenging!

I do not have any solutions yet, but I want to bring it up to discussion since you should be very well prepared for that matchup going to a larger tournament in Europe.

[Deez_Naughts]

The problem with Force of Will and Misdirection is that they're resource intensive, and in the case of Misdirection it doesn't do anything to protect you from your opponent's threats i.e. Infernal Tutor and Breakthrough type cards from Storm and Dredge respectively. Our deck is very much control-combo in the "who's the beatdown" vs certain match ups, and while Dredge is addressable post-board I wouldn't give Storm a "free" game up just for Misdirection.

This archetype is in now way control, it is an extremely linear combo deck. Given the limited amount of threats that actually interact with our deck, our main target is disruption cards. In the case of Storm, you should know exactly what to counter, such as LED, Wish, Ad Nauseum, and shut them down.

Given the aforementioned, I really feel some people are completely over evaulating cards like Flusterstorm, and *gulp* Dispel, while under evaluating cards like Daze, Spell Pierce, and MisD.

I'm not going to elaborate on cards like Daze, Pierce, and MisD, other than to say the our most important turns are 1 through 4, and having a cheap and free counter suite is absolutely critical.

[Deez_Naughts]

From my testing I felt not very good about the Maverick matchup, which does not really fit to the picture that i often read which suggests it is very much in our favour.

My feeling is that a skilled maverick opponent can get an edge over us:
Things I am facing:

- I don't want to Show&Tell into Emrakul and hope they don't have knight. I think it's a bad play, so the combo is weakened by the fact that you have to show&tell into Griselbrand and then win with the 7 cards you draw with sneak attack. If that happens Turn 2 we should be ok, life total is an issue since they can attack exhalted and setting up the sneak attack board wipe is also not that easy.

- The problem with the sneak attack plan is that they have "endless" pridemages, which not only messes with the blood moon plan, but it is pretty easy for them to setup knight (-> karakas) and pridgemage. That forces you to have Sneak attack + 2 activations for Emrakul in 1 turn. This 6 mana (3 RED mana!!) can be quite a lot. If they have Thalia out and/or use Knight to get wastelands this can become quite challenging!

I do not have any solutions yet, but I want to bring it up to discussion since you should be very well prepared for that matchup going to a larger tournament in Europe.

The matchup overall is favourable, the game plan is counter their Knight and GSZ.

As for the Show and Tell/Knight, unfortunately they either have it or don't, this should not stop you from combo'ing as fast as possible. You only have two plays, Sneak/Show, and you are going to win or lose based on those linear plays.

[Final Fortune]

This archetype is in now way control, it is an extremely linear combo deck. Given the limited amount of threats that actually interact with our deck, our main target is disruption cards. In the case of Storm, you should know exactly what to counter, such as LED, Wish, Ad Nauseum, and shut them down.

Given the aforementioned, I really feel some people are completely over evaulating cards like Flusterstorm, and *gulp* Dispel, while under evaluating cards like Daze, Spell Pierce, and MisD.

I'm not going to elaborate on cards like Daze, Pierce, and MisD, other than to say the our most important turns are 1 through 4, and having a cheap and free counter suite is absolutely critical.

Every deck is the control deck when they are facing Storm, and Misdirection does absolutely nothing to prevent the opponent from winning before you can resolve your threats. I don't think being able to Misdirect an Orim's Chant or Duress is much of an argument either, you're trading two for one or two for two at best and that's only when they bother to disrupt you. Otherwise you're eating a Tendrils to the face for 20 while you stare at Misdirection blankly.

Daze is fairly bad in a deck trying to reach 3+ mana and who resolves threats that disregard board position, and I don't think there's really any important difference between Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, honestly I play all 8 copies of both between the MD and SB anyway but whichever you play MD isn't that big of a deal.

[catmint]

Are you thinking that we have a bad storm matchup Final Fortune? We have a ton of counterspells (4 FoW, 3-4 Pierce/Flusterstorm) and a very fast kill or at least the ability to draw into a ton of cards. Misdirecting a Duress or an Orim's chant is also a very good play... what are you complaining about? That we not always trading 2 for 2 but sometimes 2 for 1? Does that matter...? not really an attrition matchup is it? Anyway misdirection is an awesome card to win counter wars vs. RUG/UW and has a great upside to fight edict/discard/burn.

I would rather discuss the Maverick matchup (see my previous post) which is way more problematic and common.

[wizard_of_gore]

I would rather discuss the Maverick matchup (see my previous post) which is way more problematic and common.

I can agree with your statement. 40-50 % time i cast show and tell, maverick puts KOTR. Which means he puts you back to 1-2 turn. Sneak attack is to slow then since after fetching karakas, KOTR usualy starts fetching wastelands and lock us out with thalia. Even drawing 7 with grislebrand in situation when you put it with S&T (and oponent respond with KOTR), sometimes is not enough to gain all you need to proceed to win. Irony is that maverick players complain about Sneak show because they don't play force of will and have hard time against sneak show. They want to beat everything in meta with green and white. Bastards :) :cool:

[JPA]

misdirecting a duress

Judge! :D

[catmint]

yeah... got me with the duress :laugh:

Good to have someone with a similar experience wizard_of_gore. I wonder if Phillips approach with Needle is best. I had the idea before but did not really test it. The big advantage is that you can play it "naturally" befor the combo without wasting mana or a turn as you would with blood moon. Also needle can shut off pridemage which is just a awesome for the sneak attack plan. Needle cannot really replace blood moon in the SB, however I could beat Esper & RUG many times without drawing it. I suppose the needle plan gets better if all kinds of Terminus or counterbalance decks become more popular.

[Einherjer]

I am not sure which 3 cards to squeeze into my sideboard. Blood Moon disappointed me yesterday, as it shut me down aswell. With Needle I have an option that hits Pridemage OR Karakas and just costs one and it DOES NOT hinder myself. Ill do some additional Maverick-testing before my tournament and decide after this... As I do not expect alot other MUs where BloodMoon is good I might take Needle as it is good vs the named Doomsday (naming Top/LED).
If I can motivate my brother to a test-session you can await further information this evening!

Greetings

[wizard_of_gore]

I am not sure which 3 cards to squeeze into my sideboard. Blood Moon disappointed me yesterday, as it shut me down aswell. With Needle I have an option that hits Pridemage OR Karakas and just costs one and it DOES NOT hinder myself. Ill do some additional Maverick-testing before my tournament and decide after this... As I do not expect alot other MUs where BloodMoon is good I might take Needle as it is good vs the named Doomsday (naming Top/LED).
If I can motivate my brother to a test-session you can await further information this evening!

Greetings

Pithing needle is a CARD! :D but naming LED with it won't solve problem because it can't stop mana abilities.:wink:

Btw., i found playing against maverick, needling a karakas is best thing you can do, and ASAP. Save your counterspells against qasali / GSZ and you are probably going to win. At the time you want play blood moon - you should be playing show and tell, so pithing needle is maybe better than blood moon, and it's faster. Sneak attack is a little bit to slow - they have time to establish position, and find various answers that will put obstacles in your way. It's still favorable matchup for us, but not SO EASY like everyone says....

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, I'd say the Storm match is unfavorable albeit not horribly so, and the more you rely on linear counters like Misdirection and Dispel the worse the match up gets.

[rxavage]

Flusterstorm is better than Spell Pierce in this deck. Consider this:

You cast Show&Tell, then the opponent responds with spell pierce, if you pierce the opponents pierce he will only have to pay 2 but if you respond with Flusterstorm he has to pay 3 and thats the minimum. Flusterstorm wins counterwars. Our only concerns should be resolving S&T or SneakAttack.

[Deez_Naughts]

Every deck is the control deck when they are facing Storm, and Misdirection does absolutely nothing to prevent the opponent from winning before you can resolve your threats. I don't think being able to Misdirect an Orim's Chant or Duress is much of an argument either, you're trading two for one or two for two at best and that's only when they bother to disrupt you. Otherwise you're eating a Tendrils to the face for 20 while you stare at Misdirection blankly.

Daze is fairly bad in a deck trying to reach 3+ mana and who resolves threats that disregard board position, and I don't think there's really any important difference between Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, honestly I play all 8 copies of both between the MD and SB anyway but whichever you play MD isn't that big of a deal.

I'm sorry but this is not true, against Storm we need to combo ASAP, while having an active Daze, Pierce, or FoW to stop their 0cmc mana accelerants. Moreover, if you combo out a quick Griselbrand, it's almost impossible for them to win.

If your sitting back allowing them to develop mana, and draw cards, while hoping to simply sculpt a "control" hand, your playing the match wrong.

Also, FoW'ing or MisD'ing a Duress, Inquizition, or Thoughtseize is a fine play if it keeps an active combo intact.

As for Flusterstorm, I really feel this card is sub-optimal for Sneak and Show, and by and large Legacy as a whole. Not being able to stop artifacts, enchantments, PW's or creatures is very relevant, especially in a large open event. This card simply plays so differant in a format like Vintage, where generally every Sorcery or Instant is a bomb on its own merit. Legacy is very diverse, and choosing narrow cards like Flusterstorm is, IMO, sub-optimal. Overall, I just see no reason to run Flusterstorm outside of closed local meta game, where you have information you can use to affect card selection.


I have tested this deck like crazy within my Eternal team, and run it in three Mox tournaments and won 2 and top 8'd the other. Out of the aforementioned, my conclusions have always been that the counter suite should be comprised of Daze, Spell Pierce, MisD, FoW, and REB out of the board. Each serves an important function, but culminate in forcing through the combo, as cheaply as possible. This deck is amazing in terms of early game power, but so bad as the turns progress due to the linear game plan. This is why cards like Intuition are sooooooo good, as you need to own turns 1-4.

[Final Fortune]

I'm sorry but this is not true, against Storm we need to combo ASAP, while having an active Daze, Pierce, or FoW to stop their 0cmc mana accelerants. Moreover, if you combo out a quick Griselbrand, it's almost impossible for them to win.

If your sitting back allowing them to develop mana, and draw cards, while hoping to simply sculpt a "control" hand, your playing the match wrong.

Also, FoW'ing or MisD'ing a Duress, Inquizition, or Thoughtseize is a fine play if it keeps an active combo intact.

As for Flusterstorm, I really feel this card is sub-optimal for Sneak and Show, and by and large Legacy as a whole. Not being able to stop artifacts, enchantments, PW's or creatures is very relevant, especially in a large open event. This card simply plays so differant in a format like Vintage, where generally every Sorcery or Instant is a bomb on its own merit. Legacy is very diverse, and choosing narrow cards like Flusterstorm is, IMO, sub-optimal. Overall, I just see no reason to run Flusterstorm outside of closed local meta game, where you have information you can use to affect card selection.


I have tested this deck like crazy within my Eternal team, and run it in three Mox tournaments and won 2 and top 8'd the other. Out of the aforementioned, my conclusions have always been that the counter suite should be comprised of Daze, Spell Pierce, MisD, FoW, and REB out of the board. Each serves an important function, but culminate in forcing through the combo, as cheaply as possible. This deck is amazing in terms of early game power, but so bad as the turns progress due to the linear game plan. This is why cards like Intuition are sooooooo good, as you need to own turns 1-4.

I pretty much disagree with almost everything you've just said regarding the Storm match up and the deck in general, but it's really simple logic that if your opponent has a faster fundamental turn than you do then your first objective is to not die and not to be the second one to combo out.

I have no problem with Misdirection being in the deck, I just have a problem with Misdirection being a 4x in the deck because even your disruption becomes linear at that point and it can't even address half of the cards you've just mentioned vs. Storm anyway.

[catmint]

From my experience the storm matchup is pretty good. Daze was not very good in my testing. Doing it before the combo turn sets as back and taxing for 1 during the combo does not get it done.

Did anyone ever put some thought into how bad the MU are in number and how a specific SB choice changes that?

I was bored so I put an excel together. The numbers in there (hopefully) reflect my local meta :), but the MU% and how SB choices affect it are just a first rough estimate.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9121/sneakattacksbstrategy.png

Would be nice to have your input on the numbers and of course just PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the excel.

[Einherjer]

Pithing needle is a CARD! :D but naming LED with it won't solve problem because it can't stop mana abilities.:wink:


Got me aswell! Haha

Yeah I will definitely take Needle to the tournament and will report you back on Sunday evening.

By the way, Flusterstorm is not a bad card. Daze is. I think we have gone trough this so many times its just not worth repeating it again...we all know the pros/cons for each counter and we are not going to convice those who think Flusterstorm/Daze is pro and Flusterstorm/Daze(choose what you didnt choose earlier) is bad... Let's just be it like:"Its a decision of personal play-style!"

Greetings

[Deez_Naughts]

Got me aswell! Haha

Yeah I will definitely take Needle to the tournament and will report you back on Sunday evening.

By the way, Flusterstorm is not a bad card. Daze is. I think we have gone trough this so many times its just not worth repeating it again...we all know the pros/cons for each counter and we are not going to convice those who think Flusterstorm/Daze is pro and Flusterstorm/Daze(choose what you didnt choose earlier) is bad... Let's just be it like:"Its a decision of personal play-style!"

Greetings

Daze is not "bad", this is simply misinformation.

[catmint]

Why do you think daze is good?
Being set back before the combo is a very good argument. Daze can be useful against RUG in a counterwar, but even in this matchup you can take some turns to find double-triple counterbackup. But by doing so they can make land drops to pay for daze. Against UW I find daze to be too weak.

[rxavage]

Why do you think daze is good?
Being set back before the combo is a very good argument. Daze can be useful against RUG in a counterwar, but even in this matchup you can take some turns to find double-triple counterbackup. But by doing so they can make land drops to pay for daze. Against UW I find daze to be too weak.


Why would you be using daze before the combo? Our counters are used to protect our Combo. We are the beatdown, there is no reason the be countering anything before dropping S&T or SA. In this deck flusterstorm is better than spell pierce, I would go as far to say that in THIS DECK daze is better than spell pierce; considering our only concern is resolving S&T and SA. Winning counter wars is what matters. Which is why I moved pierce to sb and put daze mb. I may even try and get 2 more flusterstorm to replace pierce completely.



CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

SPELLS 28
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal

LANDS 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD :

3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 REB
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
2 Spell Pierce <--- possibly flusterstorm

[menace13]

Storm is not that common of a match up right now. If your local meta has storm decks all over the place: play RUG.

If you don't like Daze replace it with Pierce/Fluster/REB/whatever you like.

My counter suite would be 4 Misdirect 4 FoW 3 Daze(you can play Pierce or Fluster here). I like Daze, but that's just me. It is one of the few counters against Maverick that can be spent for value(or in other agrro match ups too).

Show and Tell into Sneak Attack with a red mana open beats them showing a KotR.

4 Misdirection is the goods right now. Only things that matter are counterspells on SnT/Sneak. The deck wins by resolving one spell. Misdirect is fow 5 through 8 which means you wont really have to dig for them.

You cannot Misdirect Duress but IoK/Sieze are great targets and that is a 2 for 2.

[Einherjer]

Ive done 50 sideboarded-games against Maverick. Even though this number may not be fully enough it provides atleast a few numbers.
I played 25 with Blood Moon and 25 with Pithing Needle.
I boarded as following:
-2 Intuition
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Misdirection
+2 Spell Pierce
+3 Blood Moon/Pithing Needle

BloodMoon Games:
11 won
14 lost

PithingNeedle Games:
16 won
9 lost

The conclusion I(!) take is that Needle is definitely better in the Maverick-MU alone. And I will take it to my local tournament, but I cannot say for sure if its the way to go for a biig tourney like GP, which I will attend aswell..

Greetings

And btw...You may say Flusterstorm is bad, but I am now allowed to say Daze is bad? We have a little communication-problem here hu? But as mentioned above, it's useless to discuss this again..

[catmint]

Thanks Phillip. Was your opponent a competent Maverick player? Do I know him? :laugh:

Very good info.. thx a lot. You do not happen to know how many pre / postboard games you won/lost with the different configurations? WOuld provide more value for the excel sheet. :cool:

[Einherjer]

My opponent was a Maverick player. Not an excellent one, nor a profi, but a decent one.

Sorry I don't seem to get you, I got here the data for the postboardgames. As I only played postboard we got the data here. Preboard shouldnt make a real difference considering the different sideboards right? Oh while writing this, I think Ive got you - no I cannot provide figures for 50 preboard-games. I am sorry.

What is the list you are playing at the moment?

Greetings

[JACO]

If you guys are having trouble with Maverick and anything else for that matter, Blood Moon main is key. I don't know how else to tell you. Casting that early and protecting it is more than enough to get you to a favorable point where you can land a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell without fear of Karakas setting you back.

I have cut Intuition altogether from my list for another Ponder and another basic Island. Unless something changes in the next two months that's what I'll be playing at big tournaments this summer.

[Water_Wizard]

If Maverick is a huge concern, I think running Submerge in the board is the way to go. (EDIT: Or Blood Moon main, as Jaco suggests above.)

I played a very frustrating match against Storm last night. He won game 1, I won game 2. Game 3, I was able to turn 3 Sneak Attack Emrakul into play with help from an Ancient Tomb and a Lotus Petal. This destroyed his board (2 lands) and put him at 3 life. Over the next few turns, I proceeded to cast 3 Ponders and a Brainstorm (shuffling with the Ponders and cracking a fetch after the Brainstorm), not finding my final threat to finish him off. On his 7th turn, he draws a fetch, cracks it for Tundra, Chants me, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor (for Dark Ritual), Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains (3 B floating) (returns Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor), Ritual, Ritual (7 B floating), Infernal for Infernal (why not run the Storm count up?), Infernal for Tendrils, Storm 12. Frustrating.

I thought about bringing in Blood Moon in this match-up. I didn't because 1) I figured it might be too little, too late, and 2) Storm has a lot of artifact mana plus some basics.

What are everyone's thoughts about Blood Moon vs. Storm?

I sideboarded -3 Misdirection, -1 Griselbrand, -2 Intuition (I've seen Surgical Extraction pop up in some Storm lists lately), +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +2 Pyroblast.

Also, is there a reason people are running REB over Pyroblast? I thought Pyroblast was strictly better since it can target a Phantasmal Image that copies a non-blue creature (not that Phantasmal Image is seeing much play, but it is a corner case).

EDIT: I am going to run Blood Moon main. I was running it main, but stopped because: 1) it's a dead card against certain match-ups (namely, Burn) and 2) It requires a more robust mana base (i.e. if you are going to run Blood Moon, you need to include more basic Islands, fewer fetches, and fewer Volcanic Islands.) Currently, I run:
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
8 Fetch
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
(20 Lands)

With Blood Moon Main, I may try the same mana configuration, only switching an Ancient Tomb for a City of Traitors (3/3 split, since the drawback of CoT is negated by Blood Moon and the life loss of AT can be an issue against fast decks (Burn) and with Griselbrand card drawing - Against control decks, it is nice to be able to draw 14 cards to sculpt your hand, and with Ancient Tomb activations and fetchlands, you can fall below 15 life).

Jason, if I read your post below correctly, you are running:
5 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
6 Fetch
(20 Lands)

So, the only difference between our mana bases being 2 Islands / 2 Fetch. A higher fetch count is more susceptible to Stifle, but also works well with Ponder and Brainstorm (plus thinning the deck). However, with Blood Moon in play, fetches become basic Mountains and it is essential to have at least 1 Island in play, most likely more than 1 if you hope to S&T and have Spell Pierce mana open or play UU cards out of your sideboard (V. Clique or Wipeaway). I may try 4 Islands / 7 Fetch.

In conclusion, I agree with Jaco, Blood Moon is very strong in the current meta, there is not much enchantment hate (outside of Pridemage), there are many non-basics and greedy mana bases, it solves the Karakas problem, and most opponents do not expect it game 1.

[rxavage]

I may just play preordains over intuitions since quite a few people have attested to removing them. I never thought they were that good in this deck and was always curious why it was a must include especially now that Progenitus is no longer in the deck.

Pyroblast can be misdirected.

[JPA]

I think playing 2 Intuitions main and siding them out against almost everything because of Surgical is the way to go. Cutting them altogether makes the deck way too inconsistent and makes us mulligan even more.

The Storm matchup is equal to negative, I can't win against them with Sneak Attack, because they always recover when I annihilate them. Didn't drop Griselbrand against them yet. ;-)
Blood Moon vs Storm is too slow. They play Petals and stuff and I'd rather want the T2 Show and Tell than Blood Moon against Storm Combo.

I think having real trouble vs Maverick is impossible with Sneak Show. Yes, they do have answers for some of our business, but generally a Turn 3 Show and Tell is enough to win.

[Water_Wizard]

Pyroblast can be misdirected.

But if you Misdirect REB you are going to target the Misdirection 99 times out of 100. I do not understand. What is a situation where the "colorlessness" of Pyroblast is relevant?

[Water_Wizard]

Blood Moon vs Storm is too slow. They play Petals and stuff and I'd rather want the T2 Show and Tell than Blood Moon against Storm Combo.


Thank you - that is what I thought and I agree :)



I think having real trouble vs Maverick is impossible with Sneak Show. Yes, they do have answers for some of our business, but generally a Turn 3 Show and Tell is enough to win.

I agree with this. Jacob Kory (Koby on here), "the godfather of Maverick" said


Like I said, lunch break. Without something extreme like Ensnaring Bridge, this matchup is pretty bad. Sneak Show is one of those decks that punish Maverick for not running counterspells.

If it looks this bad from their point of view, than the match up must look good from our point of view.

[rxavage]

But if you Misdirect REB you are going to target the Misdirection 99 times out of 100. I do not understand. What is a situation where the misdirection is relevant?

Here's an article explaining the difference for you because I'm too lazy:

reb vs. pyroblast (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=21311)

[Water_Wizard]

Here's an article explaining the difference for you because I'm too lazy:

reb vs. pyroblast (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=21311)



Thank you for the article, it was very good (and a mental exercise).

What I gathered was:
REB is better when you will be targeting a permanent, since it cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

Pyroblast is better with cards that are sacrificed if targeted (like Phantasmal Image), since Pyroblast can target non-blue spells (color is checked upon resolution).



Consider that in the rare instance you want to reb your opponents island after dropping blood moon and you've yet to drop an island of your own it cannot be misdirected, where as blast could.

I don't believe you can REB a land, since it is colorless (an Island is not a blue permanent, unless a Painter's Servant is in play naming blue).

[rxavage]

I don't believe you can REB a land, since it is colorless (an Island is not a blue permanent, unless a Painter's Servant is in play naming blue).

Lol, you're right. I just reread the article and came back to edit.

[JACO]

To me the matchup against Maverick is a toss up against a good player. You can't reliably just Show and Tell in a creature (because of the Knight of the Reliquary into Karakas problem, which is frequent), which means you need Sneak Attack. With how common Maverick and Junk decks are at tournaments (and likewise with how common RUG Delver is) you can't afford toss ups in commonly played matches. You need to beat those decks like a drum, and consistently, if you want to win a tournament. Blood Moon main is a beating against all of those decks.

Against Storm decks (there's a lot of different varieties, but most play shitty manabases), Blood Moon is not bad at all if you land it in the first turn or two, and all they have left to generate colored mana is Lotus Petal (because they aren't going to be able to use Lion's Eye Diamond effectively). That being said, in my sideboard games I'm bringing in Vendilion Clique and Flusterstorm against them.

Water_Wizard, to answer your question, my current main deck is this:
Sneak & Bargain 20122Q 1.2, by Jaco 05-15-2012
Business (36)
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Blood Moon
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Mana Sources (24)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain

I don't like having a million fetchlands in here with how good Blood Moon is. I have had no trouble finding Red mana with 13 sources main (and more if a Blood Moon hits).

[Water_Wizard]

Jaco, thank you.

You do not bring Leyline of Sanctity in against Storm? I imagine you are removing 3 Misdirection and possibly a Lotus Petal for +2 Clique, +2 Flusterstorm?

I like your list. I like the lack of Intuition. I realize you sacrifice some cantrips and fetches for maindecking the Blood Moon package, which I believe is an overall improvement in this current meta. Including Blood Moon main also opens up slots in the sideboard.

EDIT: The reason I ask about Leyline is because I wonder if it is worth keeping in the board. It typically comes in against discard, burn and storm. However, if we aren't bringing it in against Storm, is it worth the sideboard slots?

[JACO]

Jaco, thank you.

You do not bring Leyline of Sanctity in against Storm? I imagine you are removing 3 Misdirection and possibly a Lotus Petal for +2 Clique, +2 Flusterstorm?

I like your list. I like the lack of Intuition. I realize you sacrifice some cantrips and fetches for maindecking the Blood Moon package, which I believe is an overall improvement in this current meta. Including Blood Moon main also opens up slots in the sideboard.

EDIT: The reason I ask about Leyline is because I wonder if it is worth keeping in the board. It typically comes in against discard, burn and storm. However, if we aren't bringing it in against Storm, is it worth the sideboard slots?
After playing a lot with Leyline of Sanctity I don't really like it, and will probably be cutting it from the sideboard moving forward. In my experience you don't even need it, and against discard decks there are more efficient options that don't require you to mull to Leyline.

[catmint]

I was sceptic about the Leylines as well but playing a ton I find them pretty good. No need to mulligan very aggressively if the rest of the hand is good though. Yes, we have answers vs. decks with Duress,... but cabal therapy is a big problem. Many of those decks also run liliana and edict, which is too answered by Leyline.

Concerning storm:
- ANT can find bounce after Ad Nauseam
- Tes as well plus they can goblin you out
- High tide will easily find a bounce spell after going off
- The only deck you should side it is versus Belcher. Nuts in this MU!!

I would not side leyline versus burn. They still have enough ways to do damage and you should just keep comboing fast since they cannot interact with it well or beat it.

So, altough I find the Leyline very good I only bring it in versus very few matchups (nic fit, BW, Pox, Junk, Belcher), which are not too bad to start with. see: http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9121/sneakattacksbstrategy.png

Maybe we should use the slots for something else...

[Einherjer]

Ive had a discussion with another competent SneakAttack-Player which made me transform my sideboard into the following:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast

Why the lack of BloodMoon and Trinisphere? After some additional testing and due to the experience the other SneakShow player has, we agreed to cut them, as there are better things againt Storm-Combo. Why no Blood Moon? We agreed, that Pithing Needle is just as good vs Maverick BUT it does not hinder us in any way, and yes BloodMoon does, doesn't matter how well prepared your Manabase it. In addition to this point Pithing Needle adds itself to the list of a useable sideboard-card in many other MUs too, whereas BloodMoon is only good vs Canadian and semi-good vs Reanimator. If youre a tricky player you can even board it in the mirror. (I go the Emrakul route? Well then Ill play Peedle naming SneakAttack/Griselbrand?), or shut down things like Sensei's Divining Top and its consorts. BloodMoon can be Pridemaged, and so can Needle, but 2 BloodMoons cannot protect itself, PithingNeedle can. After drawing 7/14 with Griselbrand it is not unlikely to drop a PithingNeedle on Karakas and Maze of Ith or Qasali, and attack with Griselbrand alone, taking the chilled way. Considering the UW Terminator-MU..how good are they without Senseis Divining Top, which is completely shut down by PithingNeedle.

So guys, here are my thoughts and arguments, what do you think?

Greetings

[catmint]

You made your point for needle vs. maverick with your testing results. So if you expect a lot of maverick 3-4 should be fine. Still think there should be some room for blood moon in the SB. I like the argument of Jaco that in a larger tournament where a lot of Maverick/RUG is running around BLood moon might be a good maindeck choice.

Why mass removal and 2 additional GY slots when running 4 leyline of the void?
I also would never run spell pierce in the SB over Redblast. Redblast is a hard counter for blue which has a lot of utility in other mu's for the cost of only beeing able to hit the cantrips vs. ANT, TES.

[Einherjer]

I expect a lot, and when I say a lot I mean A LOT Dredge, thats why I added 2 Crypts. The mass-removal is for a joke-match-up called Merfolk, whats that? Its not 2011 right? It seems to be celebrating a come-back at my meta and that's why I want to be prepared. Remember that this is NOT my sideboard for Ghent but for my local tourney.

Greetings

EDIT: Guys did you realise, that we are whining about Match-Up X,Y and Z and Match-Up X,Y and Z are whining about us? We all claim that the other deck is so mightey - just hilarious :P

[Justin]

EDIT: Guys did you realise, that we are whining about Match-Up X,Y and Z and Match-Up X,Y and Z are whining about us? We all claim that the other deck is so mightey - just hilarious :P

That suggests to me that the people who post on this thread and well as threads "X, Y, and Z" are all terrible players.

[catmint]

what a statement... Sure its true that people over/underestimating certain matchups are often poor/less experience players. So what is your job here? Just beeing offensive and insulting without offering any piece of advise or your opinion/experience on the topic? Great way to lower the quality of the forum. :tongue:

I brought up the topic Maverick , because I faced certain problems during my testing. The opinions I read/heard go from "easy matchup anyway" "luck dependent" to "fairly difficult" or "play blood moon main",... If there is similar stuff going on the maverick side then that probably inclines that a short term reports are heavily draw dependend and nobody did enough testing to provide objective information (not looking at you here philip - thanks again). So the community does not yet have a clear picture of the MU% or the sideboard plan. Exciting times to test and share information...

[Justin]

I was making a joke. Hopefully, most people who don't take themselves too seriously got a chuckle out of it.:smile:

I will re-state something that's been bugging me about the deck. As we all know, there are some cards that opponents can play to shut this deck down (Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Blazing Archon, etc.). Some Sneaky Tell players run maindeck answers to these problems, Echoing Truth, as the most common of these. Many of those lists also run Intution. What bugs me is when I see lists that run two copies of Echoing Truth (and other silver bullet cards that you might want to tutor for) when they are also running Intution. I think it makes more sense to run three copies so that you can directly "tutor" for the spell you need.

[Einherjer]

I just came back from my locals. I took it down with 5-0. That was my list:
//Lands//Fastmana
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 City of Traitors
2 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
//Combo
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
4 Griselbrand
//Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
//Tutor/Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
1 Preordain
//Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap

Even though I did not need the Pithing Needles I will keep them in as they were very helpful in my testing. My MUs were:

UBW Terminator: 2-0
UBWR Doomsday: 2-0
UB Reanimator: 2-1 (misplay here :/)
UR Delver: 2-1 (misplay again)
LED-Dredge: 2-1

The only match I lost without a misplay as Dredge. I could have taken it down with 10-1 but whatever .P

Deck was fun and it feels ready for a big event:)

Greetings

[Dia_Bot]

First of all, congratz. Secondly how did you feel about the singleton preordain? Did you ever wish it would have been a 3rd intuition instead ?

(btw, I'm asking this bc it's about the only difference with my list :tongue:)

[rxavage]

Nice job. I'm also getting ready for 2 GPT's and an SCG in the next few weeks. Although I'm expecting alot of RUG and plenty of the other tier1/1.5 decks so I'll be happy walking a way ith a grip of duals or whatnot.

[catmint]

Congrats Phillip! Unfortunately there is a lot more attention for the deck now, so coming to the GP in Gent people will be much more prepared.

[rxavage]

3 in top 8, 4 in top 16. Take shelter the fallout is going to be horrible. Prepare for the hysteria and wide-spread panic.



And SneakShow takes 1st.

[Water_Wizard]

- Tes as well plus they can goblin you out
- The only deck you should side it is versus Belcher. Nuts in this MU!!

I would not side leyline versus burn. They still have enough ways to do damage and you should just keep comboing fast since they cannot interact with it well or beat it.

So, altough I find the Leyline very good I only bring it in versus very few matchups (nic fit, BW, Pox, Junk, Belcher), which are not too bad to start with.

Maybe we should use the slots for something else...

Why do you bring it in against Belcher? Can't they "goblin you out" as well? I understand if they don't realize you've boarded it and they keep a Charbelcher kill hand and then you drop it on them after you both keep. It just seems like it only stops 1/2 their combo and isn't likely worth the 4 slots. Thanks...

[Einherjer]

First of all, congratz. Secondly how did you feel about the singleton preordain? Did you ever wish it would have been a 3rd intuition instead ?

(btw, I'm asking this bc it's about the only difference with my list :tongue:)


I was playing with 20 lands for such a long time. But as everyone else seemed to be playing well with 19 without the need to cheat XD I thought, yeah why not try it. So I cutted a land for a Preordain and I gotta say... I mulled more often due to few lands but when I had enough lands the 9th Cantrip was pretty powerful. I wouldn't want to play with 3 Intuitions. Maybe you should try to switch the 3rd for a Preordain.

Yeah I got a GPT in two weeks coming. Hopefully I am winning this aswell - 3 Byes are friggen neat for the first GP I attend to :P

I did some changes to the sideboard aswell:
-1 Ravenous Trap -1 Surgical Extraction -1 Red Elemental Blast -1 Pithing Needle + 1 Grafdigger's Cage +3 Echoing Truth
I do not feel like having to hardcast Emrakul/Griselbrand again. Oh I didnt mention it on this forum: In the third game vs Reanimator I boarded out 2 Show and Tell and he Needled my Sneak Attack, I had Cage + Crypt + Surgical. We played draw go for 10-15 turns until I HARDCASTED A GRISELBRAND FOR THE WIN!!!!

Greetings

EDIT: rxavage, which tournament are you refering to?

[Water_Wizard]

We played draw go for 10-15 turns until I HARDCASTED A GRISELBRAND FOR THE WIN!!!!

Greetings

Using 4X Lotus Petal? Wow! Awesome!

I've thought about hardcasting Emmy - 4 Ancient Tomb, 2 COT (tap first before you play second) and lands, LP, never done it yet, and I'm not sure I'm so sorry I haven't :)

Congrats Phillip!

[Sigar]

What's the best card UW miracle control can bring in against Sneak Attack from the SB?

[Einherjer]

What's the best card UW miracle control can bring in against Sneak Attack from the SB?

Ethersworn Canonist, at the first glance weak, is a beast. If he sticks you cannot counter back their counters - which is pretty tough if you ask me.

Yes, using all 4 petals, I had the mana for Emrakul aswell, but topdecked Griselbrand earlier XD Draw-Go ftw :)

Greetings

[catmint]

Why do you bring it in against Belcher? Can't they "goblin you out" as well? I understand if they don't realize you've boarded it and they keep a Charbelcher kill hand and then you drop it on them after you both keep. It just seems like it only stops 1/2 their combo and isn't likely worth the 4 slots. Thanks...

Sure it only stops half of their combo but them having charbelcher "stops" our combo (S&T) since you just loose if they put it into play.Once I had to put Leyline in from a S&T before I could start to kill him just in case he has charbelcher. As for the goblin combo: them comboing off for belcher or goblins should not happen with our counterspells.

[JPA]

3 in top 4, 4 in top 16. Take shelter the fallout is going to be horrible. Prepare for the hysteria and wide-spread panic.



And SneakShow takes 1st.

3 in Top 8 you mean. ;-) Still, pretty insane stuff. Deck to beat, here we come again.

[catmint]

What's the best card UW miracle control can bring in against Sneak Attack from the SB?

They will probably try to setup terminus on our turn in case we sneak attack (but they can do that maindeck). In general I think that UW decks running a bunch of Ethersworn Canonist have a much bigger chance of beating us. We can only Force it and once its there all of our protection is gone. Then the UW player does not need to play another spell, he just needs to counter our bounce or our combo attemp, while canonist starts to kill us slowly. Sure they could run out of counterspells if we are able to apply enough pressure, but it happens rarely that we have that overload of business spells.

[Water_Wizard]

What is the link to view SCG lists before they post to the "Coverage Archives" section? How do I see the lists from today? Thanks!

[catmint]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-05-27&end_date=2012-05-27&event_ID=20&start_num=25&start_num=0&limit=25

Lists are not that exciting to me. Some odd sideboard choices. Not a lot of blood moon or pithing needle around, but stuff like Blue elemental blast or pyroclasm.

[Final Fortune]

Damn, those are some seriously amazing placings there ... RIP Show&Tell?

[Water_Wizard]

Thank you catmint.

When people run Through the Beach in their sideboards, what match ups do they bring it in against and what do they side out? Is it a S&T substitute? An alternate win condition? An extra threat? All of the above???

@Final Fortune - I wouldn't say bye S&T yet, it's just one week and it's an SCG tournament, not a large, sanctioned event.

[Einherjer]

Amazingly 3/4 played 9 Cantrips. Seems to be the way to play.

No, not RIP Show and Tell. There are Decks that can handle this deck very well. People just gotta realise how to beat Show and Tell. Discard+Counter+Clock still work wonder vs our deck. A new-aged TeamAmerica like I play it for fun beats Show and Tell quite regulary. No need to panic, people just need to adapt. Just remember the HiveMind-Hype? Now it's nothing more than an outdated-fringe-deck right? Or CounterThopter is a very bad MUs aswell. As long as there are serveral decks that actually got a GOOD MU vs some "overpowered" deck no bannings will happen.

Greetings

EDIT: Trough the Breach is against decks that Peedle your SneakAttack and you dont want to Show and Tell against speak Show and Tell Mirror and Reanimator!

[Water_Wizard]

Did you notice almost the complete lack of Blood Moon?

[Einherjer]

Did you notice almost the complete lack of Blood Moon?

Yes! I think they came to the same conclusion as I did earlier: Blood Moon is good. But it hinders us too much to be very good. Even though they didn't solve the problem like I did -Peedle they went in the right direction if you ask me.

Greetings

[Water_Wizard]

Yes, and part of the problem with Blood Moon is that it can be too little, too late. Against RUG, great if we get a turn 2 Blood Moon, but if they get a turn 1 Delver, we still have to race and find an answer to that threat on board (although it does shut down their Pierce and Daze).

[Water_Wizard]

Yes! I think they came to the same conclusion as I did earlier: Blood Moon is good. But it hinders us too much to be very good. Even though they didn't solve the problem like I did -Peedle they went in the right direction if you ask me.

How do you explain the lack of answer to Karakas? Meta decision?

[catmint]

Probably some ignorance "we beat maverick anyway". Also a lot of people in SCG belive that RUG is the best deck in legacy and therefore Maverick is not as popular as in europe.

[Water_Wizard]

But if I were expecting a lot of RUG, I would run Blood Moon. Unless our counter-suit is strong enough without it :)

[Dia_Bot]

I was playing with 20 lands for such a long time. But as everyone else seemed to be playing well with 19 without the need to cheat XD I thought, yeah why not try it. So I cutted a land for a Preordain and I gotta say... I mulled more often due to few lands but when I had enough lands the 9th Cantrip was pretty powerful. I wouldn't want to play with 3 Intuitions. Maybe you should try to switch the 3rd for a Preordain.

Yeah I got a GPT in two weeks coming. Hopefully I am winning this aswell - 3 Byes are friggen neat for the first GP I attend to :P

I did some changes to the sideboard aswell:
-1 Ravenous Trap -1 Surgical Extraction -1 Red Elemental Blast -1 Pithing Needle + 1 Grafdigger's Cage +3 Echoing Truth
I do not feel like having to hardcast Emrakul/Griselbrand again. Oh I didnt mention it on this forum: In the third game vs Reanimator I boarded out 2 Show and Tell and he Needled my Sneak Attack, I had Cage + Crypt + Surgical. We played draw go for 10-15 turns until I HARDCASTED A GRISELBRAND FOR THE WIN!!!!

Greetings

EDIT: rxavage, which tournament are you refering to?

Ok, thanks for the explanation.
I'll try out swapping one for a preordain and see how it goes.

[Tenbin]

Regarding Blood Moon: While I see Phillip's point about it oftentimes not being enough, I find it almost vital in beating BUG Control, as they usually just run 1-2 basics and rarely fetch for it, Blood Moon just wrecks their game completely. It's all a meta-choice though.

Pithing does do wonders against Maverick as that's an answer to both Karakas and Knight and it's an answer that can stop decks that have problematic cards but with a fairly non-greedy manabase

[Water_Wizard]

Regarding Blood Moon: While I see Phillip's point about it oftentimes not being enough, I find it almost vital in beating BUG Control, as they usually just run 1-2 basics and rarely fetch for it, Blood Moon just wrecks their game completely. It's all a meta-choice though.

Do you run Leyline of Sanctity against BUG (for Liliana/Edict)?



Pithing does do wonders against Maverick as that's an answer to both Karakas and Knight and it's an answer that can stop decks that have problematic cards but with a fairly non-greedy manabase
What do you mean by the fairly non-greedy manabase part?

Thanks,
W_W

[Einherjer]

How do you explain the lack of answer to Karakas? Meta decision?

Meta decision sounds fair. But a lot of them play some kind of sweeper. With sweepers we have a new way of winning:
1) Let them over-extend.
2) Counter their main threats
3) Sweep the rest
4) Play Sneak Attck
5) Beat Karakas with SneakAttack ( 2 red mana + 1 Emrakul, you guys know how to do it

Yes BUG and TA are some bad MUs indeed. But as for the time being they are no meta factor yet. BUG Control just folds to Canadian Threshold and has a very bad MUs vs Dredge and StormCombo. If he meta-game doesn't change I do not see a reason to worry about this MUs as other fix meta-factors suppress this decks.

At the moment I am working on a decent sideboarding-plan for the friggen mirror.

Greetings

[Tenbin]

Do you run Leyline of Sanctity against BUG (for Liliana/Edict)?


What do you mean by the fairly non-greedy manabase part?

Thanks,
W_W

I do run Leyline of Sanctity, yes =)

Blood Moon wrecks decks that have greedy mana-bases such as RUG Delver, BUG Control and similarly. However, against decks like U/W Control (which is a fairly good match-up anyway, but I digress), a deck that plays a great deal of basics and often 1-2 Karakas (and Tundras of course) Blood Moon is not a very good card to bring in.

This is where Pithing Needle shines: It can shut down the one problematic land they have (As the Mana denial part of Blood Moon would carry little significance in this match-up) as well as Sensei's Divining Top and any Miracle cards they have.

Blood Moon can be a complete blow-out against certain decks but having read the discussion about Pithing Needle in this thread I have actually come to believe that might be a very good choice as well as it is much more versatile in the way it can deal with opposing decks.


@Philipp802: I agree about BUG Control not really being a huge part of the meta and probably not really worth spending too much time thinking about. Against them I've found that my 2 Main-deck Jace 2.0 work wonders if it sticks though.

Against the mirror I'd actually consider Through the Breach, siding out Show and Tells. Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack is a bit dodgy but could work. I also once again feel the need to be an advocate for out spots main; a Chaos Warp or a Jace main can save a game against Sneak Attack.

[CephalidBreakfast]

This is Jonathan Hickerson from the Nashville Open. I have long lurked this thread, and you all deserve some thanks for influencing my deck decision for this weekend, so thanks.

I noticed the discussion about Blood Moon, a card I have long disliked in the sideboards of U/R combo decks. I understand that in the context of this deck, it shuts down Karakas, which is a problematic card, but I do not feel like the card does anything beneficial to actually advance your plan to kill them. Without any answer, Sneak Attack beats Karakas, and Show and Tell into Gristelbrand probably beats it. In my testing for this tournament, I lost to Karakas zero times despite playing against it several times - you just have to adjust your play if you can.

Philip Dickman's Blue Blasts and Pyroclasms are bad. He was in a rush before the tournament and copied McDarby's sideboard from last week. I tried to give him my sideboard, but they were literally putting up seatings as I was doing this, so he was unable to upgrade. Don't play Blue Blast or Pyroclasm.

Play Through the Breach if you aren't already. It's super sweet.

Thanks again. I'll probably go back to lurking, but I'm happy to discuss my experience if anyone wants to. Thanks again for your unknowing input.

[JPA]

This is Jonathan Hickerson from the Nashville Open. I have long lurked this thread, and you all deserve some thanks for influencing my deck decision for this weekend, so thanks.

I noticed the discussion about Blood Moon, a card I have long disliked in the sideboards of U/R combo decks. I understand that in the context of this deck, it shuts down Karakas, which is a problematic card, but I do not feel like the card does anything beneficial to actually advance your plan to kill them. Without any answer, Sneak Attack beats Karakas, and Show and Tell into Gristelbrand probably beats it. In my testing for this tournament, I lost to Karakas zero times despite playing against it several times - you just have to adjust your play if you can.

Philip Dickman's Blue Blasts and Pyroclasms are bad. He was in a rush before the tournament and copied McDarby's sideboard from last week. I tried to give him my sideboard, but they were literally putting up seatings as I was doing this, so he was unable to upgrade. Don't play Blue Blast or Pyroclasm.

Play Through the Breach if you aren't already. It's super sweet.

Thanks again. I'll probably go back to lurking, but I'm happy to discuss my experience if anyone wants to. Thanks again for your unknowing input.

Tournament report please :-) :wink:

Congratulations on 1st place!

[Einherjer]

Congratz! Why don't you join us in our everyday discussion about that deck?

Yes, Through The Breach is my top-canditate for my sideboard aswell. It would probably take the slot of EchoingTruth, considering my sideboard. It does so many things, the main of them are:
1) Blanking Needle on SneakAttack
2) Overloading on buisness-spells - useful for the UW Control-MU if they drop a Canonist
3) Can replace Show and Tell in the Mirror, when you do not want to drop a Show and Tell

Greetings

[Deez_Naughts]

Played on Saturday at Worlds Collide in Oshawa, in their monthly Mox tourney, taking down the event, and winning a Mox Saphire. This makes 4x events played with this archetype, top 8'ing all 4 and winning three, winning two mox's.

I ran my previously posted list, with a slight tweak of -1 Volcanic and adding the fourth Griselbrand.

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Mountain

4x Griselbrand
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4x Force of Will
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Lotus Petal
4x Sneak Attack
4x Show and Tell
3x Misdirection
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
2x Intuition

SB:

4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Blood Moon
2x Echoing Truth


Round vs Burn:

G1- Turn 3 Emrakul gets the job done, as I use Daze and Pierce to slow down his dome shots.

G2- I open with Leyline of Sanctity, and he slumps in his chair. He does get a decent turn 1/2 Goblin guide beat down going, but a turn 4 Griselbrand shuts the party down, and beats down for the victory.

1-0

Round 2 vs High Tide (a member here on the Source)

G1- I mulligan to 6 on the play, knowing my opponent is on High Tide. I keep a hand of Tomb, Petal, Emrakul, Show, Intuition, and Ponder. I decide to go for it turn 1, and he does not have the FoW. Im fine with this hand an play, as mulling to 5 or playing more conservatively with that 6 seems bad against High Tide.

G2- I go for an early Show, which meets a Flusterstorm, I have three active counters in hand, but concede this counter battle, as I have another Show. The next turn I draw another blue card and have sculpted a crazy hand with 2x active FoW, and a REB. I go for the Show, and a counter war ensues, when the dust settles I have an Emrakul in play, but he has an open turn to go off. He draws, cantrips, and scoops them up.

2-0

Round 3 vs UWG Delver

G1- He has a 2x double FoW, 2x Daze hand that stops my Show. He setups CB/Top lock, shutting me out by keeping a Natural Order and Krosan Grip....hmmm, ok...

G2- He keeps a heavy control hand, and gets his Top/CB going, while beating with a Goyf.

2-1

Round 4 vs Nic Fit

G1- I get an early Emrakul into play, and win.

G2- I mulligan to 6, and shredded by Explorer/Therapy, and scoop after playing draw go for 5 turns with his Liliana in play.

G3- I keep a good grip with Leyline of Sanctity, Tomb, Petal, Fetch, 2x Brainstorm, and Ponder. The Leyline locks out his early discard, and he is forced to Cabal Therpay himself to get Veteran Explorer online. He gets his lands and sits on four mana, but can't seem to get anything going. I play out Ponder, and brainstorms and only find a Show, with the cards being utter rags. I eventually get stuck under my Brainstorm pile and have to play draw/go for a bit. I daze and FoW a few of his plays and finally find Griselbrand who ends the match very quickly by drawing me Petals, Sneak, and big poppa E.

3-1

Round 4 vs BGw Junk

ID into top 8.

3-1-1

Top 8 vs B/W

G1- This event was run with competive REL, giving my opponent (and all subsequent opponents) the play. Sadly for him, he felt the raw power of this archetype, in two of the fastest games I have played. I stick a turn one Show/Emrakul, he scoops.

G2- I open with Leyline, and he plays Mox, Land, Hymm, and hits two of my lands. No worries, I draw, play Tomb, Petal , Show, Emrakul....go. He draws hoping to hit an edict, but fluffs and scoops.

4-1-1

Top 4 vs U/W Miracle Control

G1- I'm paired against a buddy, who is fresh from Pro Tour Barcelona, and co-creator of another buddies PT deck, one Alexander Hayne, PT Barcelona Champion. Not surprisingly, he is playing a spicy UW Miracle control deck. I keep a hand of 2x Show, Emrakul, Tomb, Fetch, Ponder, FoW. I go for Show turn 2, which he allows, putting oblivion ring into play. Boo. We draw/go for awhile and I try another Show\Emrakul with 2x FoW, he is able to win the counter war, leaving us with a card each. After a few more turns I stick a Sneak/Grisel, and he goes for Swords. I activate Yawgmoths Bargain and draw an epic fail; 6x Lands and a daze.....ouch. I lose Grisel, and he eventually gets there with a Jace and Snappy.

G2- I stick an early Show/Em, but he has O-ring again. We draw/go and I stick a Sneak/Em, blowing his board up, including o-ring, and shuffle my dudes back in. I draw a ponder next turn and find the win in another Noodle Monster.

G3- I win a mid game counter war and stick Show/Grisel. On his turn I draw 14 cards and obviously get Sneak/Em the next turn.

5-1-1

Finals vs Affinity

G1- I'm playing against another buddy who has allot of success on the SCG open series, and he has the play. His turn one is sick, he vomits his hand on the table and casts Thoughtcast. I'm dead turn 3 to a Cranial/Etched Champion.

G2- He has a slower, but still aggressive hand, but I'm able to lock things up with a turn 4 Griselbrand.

G3- we both mulligan and I end things fast with a turn 3 Show/Em.

6-1-1

[Deez_Naughts]

I also like Through the Breach, great tool vs the mirror and Re-animator.

I think my next SB will be something along the lines of:

4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Echoing Truth
2x Through the Breach
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm

[Tenbin]

Regarding Through the Breach: I'm thinking about perhaps cutting 2 blasts in the board for 2 Bosejus if I'm boarding Through the Breach as sometimes you'll want to board out the Sneak Attacks and then you can instead for an uncounterable win-con. This mainly for slower match-ups where more sculpting is necessary, thoughts?

[Deez_Naughts]

Regarding Through the Breach: I'm thinking about perhaps cutting 2 blasts in the board for 2 Bosejus if I'm boarding Through the Breach as sometimes you'll want to board out the Sneak Attacks and then you can instead for an uncounterable win-con. This mainly for slower match-ups where more sculpting is necessary, thoughts?

Trouble is, it's CiPT, non-fetchable, non-color producing, and a real blank in the SB.

This deck has more than enough counter options to help resolve the combo.

[bfeingersh]

G2- I open with Leyline, and he plays Mox, Land, Hymm, and hits two of my lands. No worries, I draw, play Tomb, Petal , Show, Emrakul....go. He draws hoping to hit an edict, but fluffs and scoops.

Uh, what?

Also congrats to Jon Hickerson for taking down the open last night!

[Deez_Naughts]

Uh, what?

Also congrats to Jon Hickerson for taking down the open last night!

Sorry, should have been, "no opening Leyline", my apologies.

[catmint]

Concerning SB in general: Against a lot of decks you have to board out the intuitions, so I would be careful to dilute the deck too much with anti-hate. For example boarding 4 leylines and 3 blood moon.

I wrote before about Leyline of Sanctity and my tests to cut it, so I can play basically blood moon and Pithing needle. I do not board Leyline in against todays BUG control (because they do not run hymn). It also does not shut down Innocent blood, so just for 4 discard and liliana it is not worth diluting your deck too much, since Blood moon is an all star against BUG.

So what I am testing at the moment is running 2-3 divert. Along with the 3 misdirection maindeck that could be enough for discard based disruption strategies. The advantage of divert is that you can also bring it in vs. esper or "light" discard decks where it works very well vs. thoughtseize but can also just be another spell pierce in a counter war.

I tested a little bit with Boseiju and did not like it. If they know you have it RUG, UW will save their wastelands and having a colorless land that comes into play tapped is very bad for tempo. I would much rather have redblast over Boseiju.

I did not consider through the breach yet. Overloading on business is surely good for the canonist situation Philip described. However in non-canonist situations, the disadvantage of having 2 business spells over 1 business spell with backup is that you give them another draw step and time to reuse their mana. Can anyone describe the situations, MU where through the breach is necessary/good? Needle for Sneak attack and canonist is not enough for me.

[Deez_Naughts]

Concerning SB in general: Against a lot of decks you have to board out the intuitions, so I would be careful to dilute the deck too much with anti-hate. For example boarding 4 leylines and 3 blood moon.

I wrote before about Leyline of Sanctity and my tests to cut it, so I can play basically blood moon and Pithing needle. I do not board Leyline in against todays BUG control (because they do not run hymn). It also does not shut down Innocent blood, so just for 4 discard and liliana it is not worth diluting your deck too much, since Blood moon is an all star against BUG.

So what I am testing at the moment is running 2-3 divert. Along with the 3 misdirection maindeck that could be enough for discard based disruption strategies. The advantage of divert is that you can also bring it in vs. esper or "light" discard decks where it works very well vs. thoughtseize but can also just be another spell pierce in a counter war.

I tested a little bit with Boseiju and did not like it. If they know you have it RUG, UW will save their wastelands and having a colorless land that comes into play tapped is very bad for tempo. I would much rather have redblast over Boseiju.

I did not consider through the breach yet. Overloading on business is surely good for the canonist situation Philip described. However in non-canonist situations, the disadvantage of having 2 business spells over 1 business spell with backup is that you give them another draw step and time to reuse their mana. Can anyone describe the situations, MU where through the breach is necessary/good? Needle for Sneak attack and canonist is not enough for me.

I would not play this deck without LoS. It saves you against Nic Fit, Junk, BW, and any deck running targeted discard. Not to mention shutting off burn, key removal, Jace, Liliana, Tendrils, Brainfreeze, etc;

Running Divert and MisD, is complelty redundant, with Divert being a really inferior option.

As for through the Breach, it is great against the mirror, and re-animator. The more results this deck posts, the more influence it will have on the meta game, and you have to have the technology to adjust.

[Einherjer]

Yes especially the mirror will be an important factor in near times. Ive been durdling around with the thought to play another superior Show and Tell deck like HiveMind, which should beat SneakAttack easily, but is weaker to the rest of the metagame ofc but I think TtB is a decent SB-Upgrade for the mirror. As said, it might not be enough to put it into sideboards yet, in Europe, but soon it will.
Greetings

[S1N1STER]

The Karakas in Eli's sideboard list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23726-(1K)-MythicGamesElmira.com-May-Legacy-Event-in-upstate-New-York-(1K)) has got me thinking.

[Deez_Naughts]

The Karakas in Eli's sideboard list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23726-(1K)-MythicGamesElmira.com-May-Legacy-Event-in-upstate-New-York-(1K)) has got me thinking.

That SB is an utter mess...but regarding Karakas, it's cute, but why run it? How do you get it in your hand for it to be reliably effective? Ugh.

[CephalidBreakfast]

Concerning SB in general: Against a lot of decks you have to board out the intuitions, so I would be careful to dilute the deck too much with anti-hate. For example boarding 4 leylines and 3 blood moon.

I wrote before about Leyline of Sanctity and my tests to cut it, so I can play basically blood moon and Pithing needle. I do not board Leyline in against todays BUG control (because they do not run hymn). It also does not shut down Innocent blood, so just for 4 discard and liliana it is not worth diluting your deck too much, since Blood moon is an all star against BUG.

So what I am testing at the moment is running 2-3 divert. Along with the 3 misdirection maindeck that could be enough for discard based disruption strategies. The advantage of divert is that you can also bring it in vs. esper or "light" discard decks where it works very well vs. thoughtseize but can also just be another spell pierce in a counter war.

I tested a little bit with Boseiju and did not like it. If they know you have it RUG, UW will save their wastelands and having a colorless land that comes into play tapped is very bad for tempo. I would much rather have redblast over Boseiju.

I did not consider through the breach yet. Overloading on business is surely good for the canonist situation Philip described. However in non-canonist situations, the disadvantage of having 2 business spells over 1 business spell with backup is that you give them another draw step and time to reuse their mana. Can anyone describe the situations, MU where through the breach is necessary/good? Needle for Sneak attack and canonist is not enough for me.

Divert is an interesting alternative to White Leyline.

Through the Breach is excellent in any matchup where casting Show and Tell is dangerous. For instance, I played against a UW anti-Sneak and Show deck playing Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, and Enlightened Tutor. Casting a protected Show and Tell lost me the first game, so I sided them out and brought in Through the Breach. It is also great against Reanimator or any other Show and Tell deck. I also sided it in against UW Miracles to have more business spells and won because of it after my Sneak Attacks got Surgically Extracted.

[JPA]

My opinion on the sideboard discussion:

There is no "perfect" sideboard, since you have to guess the Metagame you are expecting at YOUR tournament.

But for a really big, important tournament, I would play the following cards for sure:

1. Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon (i prefer Magus, as you know). It is the strongest card Sneak Show can play in the sideboard. No discussion about this, please. It is the most diverse sideboard card we have. You don't have to name a card like with Needle, you just destroy a lot of manabases, especially Rug's and Bug's, both rather bad matchups.

2. Echoing Truth. Vs Hatecards, Dredge, etc, it can win us games that seem lost. Can also be used to bounce a sneaked Griselbrand after the attack.

3. Red Blast / Pyroblast. Against any decks with counters, these have to come in for Intuition/Petals.

Just my opinion. ;-)

What do you guys think about Vendilion Clique in the sideboard? It's strong in the mirror (in response to opposing Sneak Attack (while Sneak Attack is still on the stack, with the Clique trigger resolving first)), improves our combo/control matchup and can also be played in response to an Edict-effect.

[bfeingersh]

Things I've heard thrown out as ideas include Trinisphere and Submerge. Submerge can get rid of a Knight before they can Karakas you, even if they put it in off your Show and Tell. Trinisphere can act both as defense against combo as well as a Defense Grid against control decks.

[CephalidBreakfast]

1. Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon (i prefer Magus, as you know). It is the strongest card Sneak Show can play in the sideboard. No discussion about this, please. It is the most diverse sideboard card we have. You don't have to name a card like with Needle, you just destroy a lot of manabases, especially Rug's and Bug's, both rather bad matchups.


If this is a taboo topic in this thread, I'm willing to not discuss it, but I do not believe this question is nearly as cut-and-dry as you're making it, and I take the exact opposite position.

I believe RUG is a favorable matchup, and while BUG is unfavorable, I would rather have White Leyline. Blood Moon feels like a do-nothing.

[catmint]

True, through the breach makes a lot of sense in Reanimator and the mirror.


I would not play this deck without LoS. It saves you against Nic Fit, Junk, BW, and any deck running targeted discard. Not to mention shutting off burn, key removal, Jace, Liliana, Tendrils, Brainfreeze, etc;

Running Divert and MisD, is complelty redundant, with Divert being a really inferior option.

I am testing to run 2 divert instead of 4 Leylines to free up sideboard slots. The clear advantage of divert is that you can board in as a 2 of in matchups where you would never board in leyline (i.e: esperblade). Sure Leyline is just freaking awesome versus Nic Fit, Junk and BW, but the question is how much of the meta is running it and how much of a game do we have without the Leylines. And therefore shouldnt we maybe play more sideboard slots for the mirror, reanimator, Humility decks or whatever?

It sounds like you are overusing Leyline a lot if you board it in against all the matchups you listed:

-) If you board it in against any deck running targeted discard (light discard aka just 4 thoughtseize) you are doing more damage to your deck than their discard spells would likely do.

-) you should never side it in vs. burn. They can easily killl you with creatures flame rift, price of progess,... while you are weakening your deck. 2 Divert are much better in this matchup. Invest U to 2 for 1 them and buy a ton of time. Anyway: Primary focus is keep deck clean for faster goldfish and if not counter some stuff.

-) Concerning Tendrils: Yes if they don't expect Leyline and if it's not a burning wish version. I would much rather have more counterspells and no dead cards instead of the leylines.

-) Brain Freeze: high tide "drawing its deck (including cunning wish)" generating so much mana cannot deal with 1 permanent?

So, only MUs where I think its correct to use Leyline are BW, Pox, Nic Fit, Belcher, Heavy Discard BUG control, UB ANT. The question is if you want to devote 4 SB slots for this or if you fight it of with the spell pierces/flusterstorms/misdirections/FoW + Divert.

Edit: I was missing some posts.
Magus of the moon is not an option for me. My experience is that RUG keeps in at least some number of ligthting bolt and I also saw STP (Maverick) and Edict, GFTT and a like postboard. I don't care if they get it wrong but reason enough not to run magus imo.

Submerge: Not an option because of this stupid white 1/1 that is never attacking.

[bfeingersh]

I disagree re: Leyline vs. Burn. Sure, they can kill you with a Goblin Guide and Flame Rift, but it blanks their Lightning/Rift Bolt, Chain, Lavamancer (halfway), 40% of a Marauers, etc. That's a lot of damage it soaks up. Probably 20 cards.

[Deez_Naughts]

True, through the breach makes a lot of sense in Reanimator and the mirror.



I am testing to run 2 divert instead of 4 Leylines to free up sideboard slots. The clear advantage of divert is that you can board in as a 2 of in matchups where you would never board in leyline (i.e: esperblade). Sure Leyline is just freaking awesome versus Nic Fit, Junk and BW, but the question is how much of the meta is running it and how much of a game do we have without the Leylines. And therefore shouldnt we maybe play more sideboard slots for the mirror, reanimator, Humility decks or whatever?

It sounds like you are overusing Leyline a lot if you board it in against all the matchups you listed:

-) If you board it in against any deck running targeted discard (light discard aka just 4 thoughtseize) you are doing more damage to your deck than their discard spells would likely do.

-) you should never side it in vs. burn. They can easily killl you with creatures flame rift, price of progess,... while you are weakening your deck. 2 Divert are much better in this matchup. Invest U to 2 for 1 them and buy a ton of time. Anyway: Primary focus is keep deck clean for faster goldfish and if not counter some stuff.

-) Concerning Tendrils: Yes if they don't expect Leyline and if it's not a burning wish version. I would much rather have more counterspells and no dead cards instead of the leylines.

-) Brain Freeze: high tide "drawing its deck (including cunning wish)" generating so much mana cannot deal with 1 permanent?

So, only MUs where I think its correct to use Leyline are BW, Pox, Nic Fit, Belcher, Heavy Discard BUG control, UB ANT. The question is if you want to devote 4 SB slots for this or if you fight it of with the spell pierces/flusterstorms/misdirections/FoW + Divert.

- A deck running targeted discard, likely has more discard post board, black targeted player removal, and Liliana. So yes, it is relevant.

- Don't side it in against burn? Are you kidding me? No, really? Divert does absolutely nothing to stop their clock, their game plan is complelty unmolested. LoS wrecks them, giving you time to go off with impunity.

- Regarding combo (Feeeze/Tendrils) its irrevelvant that it stops those cards, the point is they must invest resources in removing it. Their combo is more intricate, ours is two cards....

- Your comparing apples and oranges. Divert is not a solution, it is situationally effective card that your opponent has the option to simply pay the 2. That is horrible. Divert is not Spell Pierce.....LoS has a concrete effect across a plethora of cards that directly effect us, and that is value, especially in a large meta game.

[JPA]

I tested Divert a while ago, it is worse than Leyline for sure.

[catmint]

No question that Leyline is better than divert. The questions I brought up for discussion is:

Sure Leyline is just freaking awesome versus Nic Fit, Junk and BW, Belcher,... but the question is how much of the meta is running these decks and how much of a game do we have without the Leylines. And therefore shouldnt we maybe play more sideboard slots for the maverick, rug, mirror, reanimator, Humility decks or whatever?

And Re: Burn.
Last 10+ Matches I played I did not loose a single one. Maybe a couple of game losses overall. All without Leyline. If you beat Burn also with Leyline, so be it. But that matchup is not relevant if to SB Leyline or not. Divert a bolt t otheir lavamancer/guide/marauder and tell me again it does nothing against burn.

[JPA]

also saw STP (Maverick) and Edict, GFTT and a like postboard. I don't care if they get it wrong but reason enough not to run magus imo.


That's one of the reasons to run Magus, if you ask me. :D Because a good player won't leave Swords to Plowshares in, against Griselbrand it is very bad and against Emrakul, it is dead. And the Magus is great vs Edict if we have a fattie in play next to him.

@ Jonathan (name brother :smile:): Of course its not taboo, I just think that Blood Moon (along Leyline of Sanctity) has the greatest impact on the game of all of our sideboard cards. And in the games we board it, our opponent will always have to find a way to counter or destroy it, making it easier to win with our combo.
And it's a opponent-does-nothing-anymore, so its a do-a-lot in my opinion. :wink:

[Einherjer]

Agreed. The Burn-MU is nothing we really have to worry about. But I was posting this post because you wrote something that's completly wrong.

You said:"- Regarding combo (Feeeze/Tendrils) its irrevelvant that it stops those cards, the point is they must invest resources in removing it. Their combo is more intricate, ours is two cards...."
It is just as wrong as you could get it. Let's take 2 decks - say HighTide and DoomsDay... Neither of these decks really care about bouncing eoT or putting a bounce into their pile. One Leyline costs us much more. It costs us a secure land-drop each turn. It costs us our whole consistent combo as we have to mull for it.

Honestly, I would never board in Leyline vs Combo. I might board it against BUG - but therefore we have BloodMoon right?

Greetings

[Tenbin]

If this is a taboo topic in this thread, I'm willing to not discuss it, but I do not believe this question is nearly as cut-and-dry as you're making it, and I take the exact opposite position.

I believe RUG is a favorable matchup, and while BUG is unfavorable, I would rather have White Leyline. Blood Moon feels like a do-nothing.

Considering the fact that slamming a Blood Moon against BUG essentially means you denied on-color mana for the rest of the game for them, I hardly agree with you saying it's a do-nothing; it's basically a scoop for them unless they have an overwhelming board presence (which they probably won't).

I agree with your assertion that RUG is a positive match-up though, as long as you're careful about when you fetch and fetch basics unless absolutely necessary you do have a few rounds to dig for a bunch of counters and they can't really answer any of our beasts if it hits.

Regarding Leyline vs. Burn: I'd advocate boarding leyline against them for the reasons stated. 16 bolts are made useless, 4 fireblasts, 4 Lavamancers, 2/5 of the Keldon Marauder damage, Any Barbarian Rings, Magma Jets, Thunderous Wrath if they play a couple. Taking my Burn list as an example it blanks 30 cards. take 18 lands into account and I'd have 12 cards in the deck that did anything against you. Against Burn you'd also always fetch basics as getting Price'd for 6 hurts when you need to use Ancient Tomb. That leaves about 8 cards that will work at 100% capacity, for the investment I think that's pretty neat. Keeping some counters in will make those 8 cards a non-issue as well.

Those are my 2 cents in the Leyline vs. Burn debate anyhow.

[bfeingersh]

I think people mull into Leylines too much. Board it in, if you have it in your opener it's great, if you don't but you still have a solid hand with an early combo, just keep and play your game.

[catmint]

I read some good content from a lot of (probably) smart people. And we all agree that Leyline is superstrong in certain matchups. But unfortunately nobody is talking about the "Gretchenfrage" aka crucuial question. Is it currently worth it to use 4 SB slots or should we focus on different things because we do have "ok" game anyway against the decks we board leyline.

[JPA]

I read some good content from a lot of (probably) smart people. And we all agree that Leyline is superstrong in certain matchups. But unfortunately nobody is talking about the "Gretchenfrage" aka crucuial question. Is it currently worth it to use 4 SB slots or should we focus on different things because we do have "ok" game anyway against the decks we board leyline.

Our storm matchup is ok (not that favorable though), but Leyline makes it a lot easier. It's not a mandatory sideboard card like Moon effects in my opinion, but it is one of the strongest we can play, because it protects us so well against Discard, and that hurts us a lot. And since we only drop it, if it's in our opener, it is better against BUG than Blood Moon, even though I would probably try to board 2 Moon, 4 Leyline vs them, siding out Petals and Intuitions or cantrips.

[S1N1STER]

That SB is an utter mess...but regarding Karakas, it's cute, but why run it? How do you get it in your hand for it to be reliably effective? Ugh.

Not saying that I am going to be running it, but that it got me thinking. Thought about the games I have lost with a sneak attack out after swinging with an Emrakul where I was unable to find a 2nd creature in time (doesn't happen often but it has happened). Also thought about the time I cast T2 show and tell and put out Griselbrand while my opponent put out Emrakul.

And I imagine that with his 4x intuitions plus the noxious revival and snapcaster in his board he could just intuition for whatever he needed without having to worry about surgical extraction. Which while costing 5 mana, 2 life and losing your draw seems like a lot to me, I still found it interesting.

[Koby]

I rocked a list with Blood Moon at the GP Anaheim side event, and can safely say the deck is doing unfair things.

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul the Aeon's Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Blood Moon

4 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Echoing Truth

Round 1 - Dredge
Game 1, Blood Moon cuts him off from blue discard, and he never hits a dredger.
Game 2, topdecked Grafdigger's Cage forces the scoop on turn 1.

Round 2 - Bant
Game 1 - EOT Intuition for Show and Tell meets Clique, strips way to cheat fattie.
Game 2 - Sandbagged Karakas cancels any and all plans to cheat fatties into play.

FoW + Karakas + Knight is a tough matchup. Clique too.

Round 3 - Lands
Game 1 - Durdle around, then Show and Tell when he has no hand into Griselbrand. Drawing 14 cards is unfair.
Game 2 - Sneak Attack into lethal. Fair.

Round 4 - Sneak Attack
Game 1 - He casts Show and Tell, we do a dance and Emrakuls go shuffling. Sneak Attack into unfair stuff wins it later.
Game 2 - He casts Show and Tell twice. I boarded two out. (IDK why anyone would ever cast Show and Tell in this matchup...)

Round 5 - Elves
Game 1 - Turn 2 Show and Tell puts an unanswered Emrakul into play.
Game 2 - Force on Glimpse, then he goes for a risky Summoner's Pact. I untap and cast Firespout, forcing him to lose the game.

Round 6 - UW Miracle Control
Game 1 - I run him out of counters, then resolve Sneak Attack into unfair things.
Game 2 - I run him out of counters, then resolve Show and Tell into Griselbrand, and draw an unfair amount of cards.

Round 7 - UR Delver
Game 1 - I run Show and Tell #1 into Force on my turn 2. Then the next one gets Mana Leaked with 2 mana up... (WTF? Mana Leak in Delver?) Lose to Delver + burn.
Game 2 - Show and Tell resolves, I win with Emrakul.
Game 3 - Keep a hand with 2 cantrips, SNT, and counters, cantrip into more cantrips, but fail to find any business. Run out of cantrips then draw 3 straight turns of lands. :\

Ended up 5-2, and the only difficult matchups were Clock + FoW.

Blood Moon was interesting, but I think it's better in the sideboard. Eight cantrips isn't enough with only 2 Intuition. I'd prefer more cantrips to more Intuition, as you want to be casting unfair cards as early as possible. Sneak Attack was always the safer option given a choice. Sideboard could use a tweak - Cages were good, Firespout is fine but maybe Pyroclasm could be useful. Pyros/Spell Pierce is a good mix.

Here's what I'll be testing within the next week:


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul the Aeon's Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

Cheers!

[menace13]

Blood Moon was interesting, but I think it's better in the sideboard. Eight cantrips isn't enough with only 2 Intuition. I'd prefer more cantrips to more Intuition, as you want to be casting unfair cards as early as possible. Sneak Attack was always the safer option given a choice. Sideboard could use a tweak - Cages were good, Firespout is fine but maybe Pyroclasm could be useful. Pyros/Spell Pierce is a good mix.

Here's what I'll be testing within the next week:


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul the Aeon's Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

Cheers!

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.

Your loss to UR Delver in game 1 was because Pierce would fail on Leak? The 4th Misdirection is more important for resolving Sneak/Show than Daze and Pierce.

I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.

[Water_Wizard]

Nice to see all the activity! Here we come DTB :)

I'm advocating Daze/Flusterstorm over Misdirection. My current counter-suit is 4 FOW, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Daze. Let me explain:

Daze - I like it because it hits anything and it also fits into the "quickness plan."
Flusterstorm - mainly because I face a fair amount of Storm in my meta.
Pierce - hits Walkers and the occasional pesky artifact.

I stopped running Misdirection due to a) it's limited uses (only hits other spells) and b) the fact it needs another blue card. The second effect is the largest reason why I cut it.

I prefer to have 2 counters in order to go off (sometimes one is enough). However, if I am going to have 2 counters plus business, that requires 6 cards if I am using FOW/Misdirection. What blue cards am I going to be holding? Pierce- I would most likely use it, Cantrips - I most likely used them to sculpt my hand. S&T - I'm most likely going to use it to combo.

I like Misdirection, but 2/3 Misdirection with 4 FOW requires too many blue cards in hand. Considering most of our blue cards are designed to build or implement the combo, I just had too many hands where I had 2 pitch counterspells and not enough blue cards.

The decision to run both FOW/Misd is one of the strongest reasons to run Progenitus, in my opinion. Does anyone know why Eli Kassis still continues to run Progenitus? Fear of Karakas/STP?

[Deez_Naughts]

No question that Leyline is better than divert. The questions I brought up for discussion is:

Sure Leyline is just freaking awesome versus Nic Fit, Junk and BW, Belcher,... but the question is how much of the meta is running these decks and how much of a game do we have without the Leylines. And therefore shouldnt we maybe play more sideboard slots for the maverick, rug, mirror, reanimator, Humility decks or whatever?

And Re: Burn.
Last 10+ Matches I played I did not loose a single one. Maybe a couple of game losses overall. All without Leyline. If you beat Burn also with Leyline, so be it. But that matchup is not relevant if to SB Leyline or not. Divert a bolt t otheir lavamancer/guide/marauder and tell me again it does nothing against burn.

I'm not sure what you consider testing, but to say LoS should not be brought in against burn, yet state a card like Divert is somehow as good or better, is absurd.


Agreed. The Burn-MU is nothing we really have to worry about. But I was posting this post because you wrote something that's completly wrong.

You said:"- Regarding combo (Feeeze/Tendrils) its irrevelvant that it stops those cards, the point is they must invest resources in removing it. Their combo is more intricate, ours is two cards...."
It is just as wrong as you could get it. Let's take 2 decks - say HighTide and DoomsDay... Neither of these decks really care about bouncing eoT or putting a bounce into their pile. One Leyline costs us much more. It costs us a secure land-drop each turn. It costs us our whole consistent combo as we have to mull for it.

Honestly, I would never board in Leyline vs Combo. I might board it against BUG - but therefore we have BloodMoon right?

Greetings

I'm not sure you understand the importance of resource denial in the Storm match up. I will reiterate, LoS against Storm is not to prevent their kill condition, it is to force them to use resources and a turn(s) to setup removing this roadblock, while at the same time shutting off targeted discard (ANT), and also having them have to contend with counters and our fast clock. Furthermore, you never mulligan into LoS in the Storm match-up, unless the hand in and of itself warrants a mulligan, but this should be common sense in an explosive deck like ours.


I read some good content from a lot of (probably) smart people. And we all agree that Leyline is superstrong in certain matchups. But unfortunately nobody is talking about the "Gretchenfrage" aka crucuial question. Is it currently worth it to use 4 SB slots or should we focus on different things because we do have "ok" game anyway against the decks we board leyline.

IMO, it is correct to have 4 SB slots devoted to such a catch all type of card.

IMO, any SB should be built on this model:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
0-4 Grave Hate
2-3 Bounce Spells
0-3 Moon Effect(s)
2-3 Control Slots (Pierce, REB, Pyro, Flusterstorm)
0-2 Tech Slots (Clique, Through the Breach)
X Meta Game Slots

Addressing the above considerations, we have a very effective SB.



Not saying that I am going to be running it, but that it got me thinking. Thought about the games I have lost with a sneak attack out after swinging with an Emrakul where I was unable to find a 2nd creature in time (doesn't happen often but it has happened). Also thought about the time I cast T2 show and tell and put out Griselbrand while my opponent put out Emrakul.

And I imagine that with his 4x intuitions plus the noxious revival and snapcaster in his board he could just intuition for whatever he needed without having to worry about surgical extraction. Which while costing 5 mana, 2 life and losing your draw seems like a lot to me, I still found it interesting.

I didn't mean to imply anything, rather it's a cute SB but seems a little sketchy.

Though, I admit, his design is creative and innovative, turning his Intuitions into mini-pseudo Gifts Ungiven, which is spicy. However, this SB plan leaves you wide open to extraction. Also, his post board Intuition pile will almost always be; Snappy/Revival/X (to ensure he always gets his desired one of), which you should be giving him the Snappy and forcing him to invest another 2 mana and life to get his card.

[Water_Wizard]

I also like LoS versus Burn. Burn has not been an auto-win for me. I've lost to burn a few times - a good burn hand can kill you on turn 4-5. If they have the play, even a turn 3 monster is sometimes not enough to beat them. Furthermore, on the draw, I've had turn 2 Emmy wipe their board (2 LP, 1 CoT, Land), only to have them bounce back and ping me away.



Philip Dickman's Blue Blasts and Pyroclasms are bad. He was in a rush before the tournament and copied McDarby's sideboard from last week. I tried to give him my sideboard, but they were literally putting up seatings as I was doing this, so he was unable to upgrade. Don't play Blue Blast or Pyroclasm.


I was actually running BEB, but it was for Burn (it didn't help much, in most situations, a SP or Flusterstorm is just as good). As an aside, McDarby said Pyroclasm was bad in his Top 8 Legacy Profile.

My biggest problem with LoS is what to side out. Bringing in 7 cards (4 LoS and 3 REB/Pyroblast) is difficult. I know the obvious answer is 2 Intution, 4 Lotus Petal, and a cantrip or Daze if you are on the draw. However, I want Lotus Petal in my deck against fast decks. For example, if I am playing Storm, Burn, Belcher, I want at least 3 Lotus Petals in my deck to improve my speed and improve my chances of a Griselbrand->Lotus Petal->Emmy of off a Sneak Attack. Against slower decks, like UW, BUG Control, etc., it is easy to cut Lotus Petal, because we have more time to sculpt our hand and win a counter war.

[Water_Wizard]

What do we side in/out versus Maverick?

In a meta where I expect Maverick, RUG, and BUG, I would surely include Blood Moon in my 75 (I would include it main if I expected 50% or more of my matches to be against these decks).

Blood Moon is also good against Storm and Dredge, although it can be too late if they have a strong hand. Storm can rely on artifact mana and Dredge can go manaless after they start the dredging process.

Assuming Blood Moon in in the sideboard, an using a sideboard constructed like this:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

(and using Koby's updated mainboard, below), I would go:
-3 Misdirection
-4 Lotus Petal
-1 Preordain
+3 Blood Moon
+3 Echoing Truth
+2 Firespout
(assuming we won the first match)

I think Spell Pierce is still relevant for GSZ and Choke with FOW hits the following 2 and KotR.

I assume Maverick is bringing in Choke in this match-up?

[Water_Wizard]

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.
I agree with you. I think 3 AT, 2 COT, 3 VI, 3 Island, 1 Mtn, 7/8 fetch is the way to be. Currently, I am in favor of cutting the 8th fetch for a Preordain. I think 3 CoT is only strong with Blood Moon main (because it reduces the sacrifice effect). I agree 3 VI is the right number (especially with all of your fetches finding Islands), for your above mentioned reason. If you have 1 VI in the 'yard (from Wasteland), 1 in play, and a non-Scalding Tarn fetch, you need to be able to find the 3rd mountain to cast/use or double use Sneak Attack.



I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.
I really like Clique in this deck. It allows us to 'clear the way' end of turn to either 1) win a counter war or 2) make sure we are not allowing them to Show and Tell something unfavorable into play (assuming they don't draw something good). However, I think Vendilion Clique and Blood Moon are mutually exclusive. First of all, they would most likely come in versus different decks (Blood Moon would be for BUG, RUG, Maverick and V. Clique would be against Control/Combo) and second, it can be difficult to hit UU with Blood Moon in play.

Against a control deck, V Clique causes them to burn or lose a counter and can punish them for cutting removal from their deck.

[Koby]

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.

Your loss to UR Delver in game 1 was because Pierce would fail on Leak? The 4th Misdirection is more important for resolving Sneak/Show than Daze and Pierce.

I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.

I almost always searched for basics regardless. The deck doesn't need Red mana until it's casting Sneak Attack - 7 sources is enough for that.

I was more surprised to see Mana Leak rather than Spell Pierce (which I did play around). Doesn't really strike me as an optimal card in those decks maindeck.

Clique never came up, and it seems half the time you're struggling to find enough lands early. I like it in theory, but against the true control decks, just baiting spells with Sneak Attack and Show n Tell are usually enough. Worst case, you hardcast Griselbrand with 4 Lotus Petal XD


I agree with you. I think 3 AT, 2 COT, 3 VI, 3 Island, 1 Mtn, 7/8 fetch is the way to be. Currently, I am in favor of cutting the 8th fetch for a Preordain. I think 3 CoT is only strong with Blood Moon main (because it reduces the sacrifice effect). I agree 3 VI is the right number (especially with all of your fetches finding Islands), for your above mentioned reason. If you have 1 VI in the 'yard (from Wasteland), 1 in play, and a non-Scalding Tarn fetch, you need to be able to find the 3rd mountain to cast/use or double use Sneak Attack.

I really like Clique in this deck. It allows us to 'clear the way' end of turn to either 1) win a counter war or 2) make sure we are not allowing them to Show and Tell something unfavorable into play (assuming they don't draw something good). However, I think Vendilion Clique and Blood Moon are mutually exclusive. First of all, they would most likely come in versus different decks (Blood Moon would be for BUG, RUG, Maverick and V. Clique would be against Control/Combo) and second, it can be difficult to hit UU with Blood Moon in play.

Against a control deck, V Clique causes them to burn or lose a counter and can punish them for cutting removal from their deck.

20 Land was way too much for this deck. I flooded in 3 games that could have been over had I drawn cantrips/nonlands. 19 is enough IMO, so long as we realize that we can run the risk of being mana screwed.

I never considered boarding out Lotus Petal. Is this a good idea against?

[bfeingersh]

Any thoughts on Trinisphere as anti-control that also hits Storm and Burn?

[rxavage]

Any thoughts on Trinisphere as anti-control that also hits Storm and Burn?



I've contemplated it cause it costs the same as blood moon and we have petals, tombs, and cities for ramp. I'm going to test it but it could end up hurting us cause we'd have to essentially wait til we could produce six mana to show&tell protected if the opponent has access to 3 mana and force.

[catmint]

Just because you had a bad run of flooding you cannot conclude that 20 lands is "way" too many. 19 lands 4 petals should be fine for the curve, but I think you should mulligan a lot to be more successful overall and for that plan 14 blue lands are better than 13.

SB vs. Maverick: I currently bring in 2 Blood Moon & 3 Pithing needle for 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Intuition, 2 Misdirection.

I side out some number of Lotus Petal in some control matches I expect to go long like UW, Deedstill,... Here you often should take the time to find the extra land drop and the extra counterspell. Loosing a counter war where you invested cards in tmp mana is also devastating.

[Water_Wizard]

20 Land was way too much for this deck. I flooded in 3 games that could have been over had I drawn cantrips/nonlands. 19 is enough IMO, so long as we realize that we can run the risk of being mana screwed.
I agree. 19 is optimum.



I never considered boarding out Lotus Petal. Is this a good idea against?
Any deck faster than us, leave petal in. Against control decks, take it out. Against control, I think the few games it allows us to win aren't worth the games when you wish it were a counterspell. If you expect a lot of control (however, there doesn't seem to be much being played right now), I advocate removing lotus petals for pyroblasts. Obviously, this changes if you expect Surgical Extraction (and who doesn't), then Intuitions would come out as well.

[Esper3k]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

[Koby]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

Leyline is too high variant, Relic requires 2 mana to use effectively (1 to cast, 1 to pop). Grafdiggers on the other hand, stop everything. Counters protect it too, hopefully long enough to fire out a Show and Tell/Sneak Attack and just end it right away.

I suppose Tormod's Crypt also works (esp against KotR decks) but Grafdiggers is also nice against GSZ.

[rxavage]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

Relic can also prevent surgical extraction blowouts.

[Koby]

Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

[Esper3k]

Leyline is too high variant, Relic requires 2 mana to use effectively (1 to cast, 1 to pop). Grafdiggers on the other hand, stop everything. Counters protect it too, hopefully long enough to fire out a Show and Tell/Sneak Attack and just end it right away.

I suppose Tormod's Crypt also works (esp against KotR decks) but Grafdiggers is also nice against GSZ.

Yeah, but Relic cycles and my experience hasn't been that the 1 extra mana has been super relevant.

I guess Grafdiggers is more of a consideration for us here as opposed to other decks since we don't care about other yard based things that it doesn't stop like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, shrinking Knights, Tarmogoyfs etc.


Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

I think it's fine in the board, but I think Blood Moon is still better. We generally don't need the body that Magus provides and once Blood Moon resolves, I tend to find we have plenty of time to finish the game, so why play the card that's a lot easier to remove?

Also, against RUG, Blood Moon is significantly superior, so that's a pretty large consideration for me.

[Esper3k]

Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

There really isn't much Bant in my meta, but I'd really like to test some stuff I've seen suggested here (Submerge / Vendilion Clique sounds really interesting) to help with those matchups.

Don't get married, guys - preparing for a wedding really cuts into your testing time!

[Koby]

Yeah, but Relic cycles and my experience hasn't been that the 1 extra mana has been super relevant.

I guess Grafdiggers is more of a consideration for us here as opposed to other decks since we don't care about other yard based things that it doesn't stop like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, shrinking Knights, Tarmogoyfs etc.


Right, the best use for us is against Dredge, and also a slight answer to Reanimation spells. We generally have about 2-3 turns that we need to setup and Cage does that well enough. Playing counters helps to make sure it sticks.



I think it's fine in the board, but I think Blood Moon is still better. We generally don't need the body that Magus provides and once Blood Moon resolves, I tend to find we have plenty of time to finish the game, so why play the card that's a lot easier to remove?

Also, against RUG, Blood Moon is significantly superior, so that's a pretty large consideration for me.

Both good points. I'm inclined to continue playing Blood Moon, since there isn't as much non-aggro 3c decks in my metagame where Magus would shine.

[Esper3k]

Both good points. I'm inclined to continue playing Blood Moon, since there isn't as much non-aggro 3c decks in my metagame where Magus would shine.

Yeah, I think the only deck I would really use Magus from the board against is something like BUG control where they're pretty creature light, 3 color, plus can help protect your guys from Edict effects.

[Blitzbold]

Don't get married, guys - preparing for a wedding really cuts into your testing time!

Now guess what happens if you also get children... Not a single complete tournament for me since last June. But most of the time it's absolutely worth it. Both wife and children I mean. ;-)


On topic:
My current Maindeck features both Blood Moon and Intuition as a two-of. One of the tradeoffs is only running 7 creatures, though. I haven't had enough time to test this configuration, but I really like the idea. Especially because 1) Blood Moon creates random blow outs and 2) it frees up much appreciated SB Slots.

[Esper3k]

I've really liked Blood Moon main as well. In addition to the random "oops, I win" situations as others have mentioned above, it really helps our Game 1 against Maverick.

[rxavage]

@Koby
I've considered siding BSC for the same reason, although Progenitus may be a better choice I just really want to use my BSC.

[Koby]

@Koby
I've considered siding BSC for the same reason, although Progenitus may be a better choice I just really want to use my BSC.

I would hate for BSC to end up getting lost in a Maze...

[Einherjer]

Hmm I am not happy, when I see the way all of you seem to go.

Lemme sum this up, from my point of view:
You include a 2of which can lead to a situational blow-out in some specific MUs. Fine.

But you cut one of the things, thats's been essential for this deck. Consistency. Our deck isn't the best because it's doing the strongest and unfairest moves. It's strong because it's fucking consistent. Why would I cut counters, creatures, tutors, cantrips for some situational blow-out in some specific MUs? If I would expect a meta filled with RUG, Maverick and BUG Control, fine I might play BloodMoon Mainboard, but not as an extra, more like a game-plan --> playing 3-4 of them, including a new mana-base. But is this really worth it? Look at the new UW Terminator-deck. A deck with roughly 8 basics laughs at our BloodMoon. (Same for the mirror)I'd love to see your guys faces when all your hand has is a BloodMoon and you land it vs the wrong deck. And due to the sacrificed consistency you are draw-going for a while. Do you want that? Do you really want that?

[rxavage]

I would hate for BSC to end up getting lost in a Maze...

I used to get so irritated when my Sphinx of the Steel Wind would get mazed and my Inkwell Leviathin/Empyrial archangel getting chumped by a Scryb Ranger then Ooze comes along and starts feasting on my graveyard and to top it off in G2 Show&Tell into Knight.

[Koby]

I used to get so irritated when my Sphinx of the Steel Wind would get mazed and my Inkwell Leviathin/Empyrial archangel getting chumped by a Scryb Ranger then Ooze comes along and starts feasting on my graveyard and to top it off in G2 Show&Tell into Knight.

More reasons to just run Progenitus? :laugh:

[menace13]

Hmm I am not happy, when I see the way all of you seem to go.

Lemme sum this up, from my point of view:
You include a 2of which can lead to a situational blow-out in some specific MUs. Fine.

But you cut one of the things, thats's been essential for this deck. Consistency. Our deck isn't the best because it's doing the strongest and unfairest moves. It's strong because it's fucking consistent. Why would I cut counters, creatures, tutors, cantrips for some situational blow-out in some specific MUs? If I would expect a meta filled with RUG, Maverick and BUG Control, fine I might play BloodMoon Mainboard, but not as an extra, more like a game-plan --> playing 3-4 of them, including a new mana-base. But is this really worth it? Look at the new UW Terminator-deck. A deck with roughly 8 basics laughs at our BloodMoon. (Same for the mirror)I'd love to see your guys faces when all your hand has is a BloodMoon and you land it vs the wrong deck. And due to the sacrificed consistency you are draw-going for a while. Do you want that? Do you really want that?

The deck isn't consistent. If it was it would be killing the format like Survival or putting up Mav/RUG numbers, because those decks are what I call consistent. Sneak suffers from having to have combo parts. The other decks? Not so much.

Progenitus isn't even that good in the MAV match up unless he lands early or to a soft board. Seething Song is good here( as it is in all aggro Match Ups, like Affinity and Zoo), but you dont really want song in any other MU.

[Koby]

I'm willing to accept that matchups with KotR + Karakas + Force of Will will be nearly un-winnable. That's just too much disruption. But I'm not willing to throw away the match against Maverick which at best can throw down Thalia on the play and seriously mess up the tempo.

What are some suggested board plans against Maverick with Moons in the SB?

I'm thinking (using the list posted last page or two)
+3 Blood Moon
+2 Firespout

-3 Misdirection
-2 Spell Pierce

[Esper3k]

I'm willing to accept that matchups with KotR + Karakas + Force of Will will be nearly un-winnable. That's just too much disruption. But I'm not willing to throw away the match against Maverick which at best can throw down Thalia on the play and seriously mess up the tempo.

What are some suggested board plans against Maverick with Moons in the SB?

I'm thinking (using the list posted last page or two)
+3 Blood Moon
+2 Firespout

-3 Misdirection
-2 Spell Pierce

Yeah I'll board out Misdirections & Spell Pierce against Maverick. Those two cards are pretty dead against them. If you see them keep in StP, I might bring Misdirections back in since it's amazing when you Draw 7 in response to StP on Griselbrand and Misdirection it back to their Knight.

I'm not a huge fan of Firespout against Maverick just because it doesn't deal with Knight or Karakas, which is all we fundamentally care about in this matchup. Maybe Echoing Truth / bounce would be better here? Again, I would love to test Submerge out here as well since it allows you to play Show & Tell without fearing Knights against Maverick (but it could be too narrow a sideboard card otherwise).

That being said, I do love playing a deck that gets to pretty much ignore a T1 Mother :D

[Koby]

Firespout/Pyroclasm are essnetially there to ignore Mother. Each other spot removal is prone to an active Mom. With Firespout, it takes out either Mom and/or Knight (hopefully early enough to actually kill it). I've also found that Pridemage throws a wrench into the Sneak Attack plan. That's why I would prefer to have 'Spout.

I still like going with the One-shot kill method as it's much safer overall.

[catmint]

Good that the topic consistency was brought up. The deck is consistent in a way that it is relatively easy to get the 2 combo parts together because you run 8 of each. However that also leads naturally to situations where you draw 2-3 of 1 combo part. Especially hurts when drawing a bunch of creatures. (Btw. thats why I would never side out cantrips! Even thinking about going up to 10!). So it will happen (more regularly than with other decks) that you draw a bunch of dead cards after a mulligan, which feels like the deck beats itself. This is a good thing since the deck would be too good otherwise...

So with this info in mind I would not opt to go for 3 blood moon maindeck, since it adds "clunk" to the deck. If you insist on it because 40% of the meta is Esper, RUG, Maverick I would then cut 1 Sneak Attack, 1 Emrakul and 1 petal (go to 3) to remove some "clunk". The deck is a little slower then but the blood moon is counterbait and/or buys time. I would not remove blue cards to keep the count high for 3 Misdirection.

But even with 40% Esper, RUG, Maverick I would not play blood moon main, because I would so hate it drawing the moon instead of the 2nd combo piece and loosing to some Tier2 deck in Round 1. Preboard games are strong enough and we have a supergood postboard plan against the Tier decks, so no need to weaken the deck IMO.

Concerning Maverick:
Please tell me Philip did not play 50 postboard games against Maverick for nothing. :laugh: Forget Firespout and use needle. Needle is about 10 times better against Maverick plus it hits SD.top, Belcher, Grindstone, Liliana, Jace, SFM,...

[Koby]

OK went back up a few pages and read more closely. I'll try out Pithing Needles for this weekend. I suspect there are a lot of Maverick decks in the metagame, and a good number of RUG - hence why I would prefer Moons. Testing tonite vs Maverick.

[KobeBryan]

OK went back up a few pages and read more closely. I'll try out Pithing Needles for this weekend. I suspect there are a lot of Maverick decks in the metagame, and a good number of RUG - hence why I would prefer Moons. Testing tonite vs Maverick.

WOW...you're not playing maverick?

[JDK]

Our deck isn't the best because it's doing the strongest and unfairest moves. It's strong because it's fucking consistent.

That are just your insane draws. Actually it is the opposite. :P

[Water_Wizard]

Leyline is too high variant...
I notice you don't run the white leyline either. Currently, I am running the white leyline, but I don't like the variance factor, either. Koby, suggestions? What do you run against discard and sac effects? You just expect not to see it or misdirect discard back at its caster?



...Grafdiggers is also nice against GSZ.
But no one boards it in against GSZ. If you are boarding in GDC versus Maverick, please let me know what you board out. We already bring in Blood Moon and needle/bounce vs. Maverick, I can't see where we can create 4 more slots for GDC (nor do I think it is worth stopping only GSZ, maybe worth it against a Loyal Retainers build).

[Julian23]

WOW...you're not playing maverick?

Sssssh, Maverick is already on the decline. I'm not surprised to see Koby make the switch already.

Ontopic:

If you don't want Leyline against Discard there are just two (other) ways to chose from: you can either play dedicated countermagic against it; cards like Divert, Spell Pierce or Envelop come to mind.

The other option (borrowed from Solidarity) is to play more carddraw, first of all Meditate. Decks that employ a dedicated discard-suite usually can't take a lot of advantage from taking an extra turn, compared to the +2 CA Meditate provides. In case you've played Solidarity or High Tide, you surely know what I'm talking about. The only thing I'd be worried about is the higher amount of interdependence in this deck.

[Esper3k]

Also, another interesting option if you really want a counterspell to deal with discard is Outwit.

[bfeingersh]

Probably bringing this to a tournament this weekend, thoughts?

16 combo pieces
4 Emrakul (4/4)
4 Griselbrand (3/4)
4 Show (4/4)
4 Sneak (4/4)

11 counters
4 Force (4/4)
2 Fluster (2/2)
2 Daze (2/2)
3 Pierce (3/3)

10 Cantrips
4 Ponder (4/4)
2 Preordain (2/2)
4 Brainstorm (4/4)

4 Mana
4 Petal (2/4)

19 lands
3 Island (3/3)
1 Mountain (1/1)
3 Volcanic (2/3)
3 Tomb (3/3)
2 City (0/2)
4 Tarn (4/4)
2 Misty (2/2)
1 Foothills (1/1)

SB:
3 Trinisphere (2/3)
3 Submerge (2/3)
3 Blood Moon (3/3)
3 Relic (3/3)
2 Echoing Truth (2/2)
1 Wipe Away (1/1)

Parenthesized numbers are just reference for me for what I need to find by this weekend...

[Koby]

I notice you don't run the white leyline either. Currently, I am running the white leyline, but I don't like the variance factor, either. Koby, suggestions? What do you run against discard and sac effects? You just expect not to see it or misdirect discard back at its caster?


But no one boards it in against GSZ. If you are boarding in GDC versus Maverick, please let me know what you board out. We already bring in Blood Moon and needle/bounce vs. Maverick, I can't see where we can create 4 more slots for GDC (nor do I think it is worth stopping only GSZ, maybe worth it against a Loyal Retainers build).

The plan with GDC was when Blood Moon is maindeck. You have too many dead cards main with Misdirection so being in something that does SOMETHING. With moons or needles maindeck that doesnt make sense. Again its all about trimming dead weight for something that does relevant stuff.

I vasically chose to ignore the discard and combo matchup. We can generally counter relevant stuff va combo and try to Ponder/Brainstorm the key vards to setup Sneak Attack against discard strategies. Liliana might be a problem against this plan however.

[menace13]

Testing 4 Misidrection/3 daze/2 Intuition, 4 of everything else and 19 lands with 3 Volcanic Island/5 Sol/8 fetch. The Dazes could be Pierce or REBS even though I've never liked more than 2 REB if main. The free cost of Daze often comes up after Grisel hits play. I think I may want more Sol Lands now will have to cram sessions in.

Misdirect is like FoW 5 through 8 for resolving Sneak/Show/FoW. Also it does things to StP/Diabolic Edict/Seize/Hymn/IoK. Card disadvantage or Blue count(28?) is not an issue. Only one spell has to resolve.

Grisel is the only thing that matters any longer. Because of 7 power lifegaining Bargain with wings I feel no remorse slamming it down against Jace or Karakas to draw 7 for 7 life and 3/5 mana. It is a upgrade on every enabler over the previous slot of Progenitus and often is the first thing I want to put into play. Usually drawing 7 will get Sneak Attack or more counters if Sneak resolved.

I dont know why Dream halls or Hive is playing another creature. I havent tested that yet, but I did see some interesting things against those decks. Most importantly Flying Bargain allows the deck to keep in some number of SnT against Hive Mind and Dream Halls. Before now they would be relegated to SB because Dream and Hive were better off SnT, although I think this is only better vs Dream Halls since Hive can copy your 6 counters drawn and still win off of Pacts. Careful play with daze and Petals can off set this. It also outraces Prog in a head to head.

For the actual mirror I suggest Cliques. Through The Breach is also great and SDTop is an absolute game winner here.
Edit: Problematic cards like Needle/Revoker/MMage/Humility/Bridge/Karakas/Jace are all shuffled by Chaos Warp which might be better than E Truth. Needle and Revoker off of SnT will let the player see and name whatever hit play (Sneak/Grisel).

[rxavage]

Probably bringing this to a tournament this weekend, thoughts?

16 combo pieces
4 Emrakul (4/4)
4 Griselbrand (3/4)
4 Show (4/4)
4 Sneak (4/4)

11 counters
4 Force (4/4)
2 Fluster (2/2)
2 Daze (2/2)
3 Pierce (3/3)

10 Cantrips
4 Ponder (4/4)
2 Preordain (2/2)
4 Brainstorm (4/4)

4 Mana
4 Petal (2/4)

19 lands
3 Island (3/3)
1 Mountain (1/1)
3 Volcanic (2/3)
3 Tomb (3/3)
2 City (0/2)
4 Tarn (4/4)
2 Misty (2/2)
1 Foothills (1/1)

SB:
3 Trinisphere (2/3)
3 Submerge (2/3)
3 Blood Moon (3/3)
3 Relic (3/3)
2 Echoing Truth (2/2)
1 Wipe Away (1/1)

Parenthesized numbers are just reference for me for what I need to find by this weekend...



Scoundrel!!! My list is very similar the only thing I would advise is replacing atleast one of the pierces with a Misdirection. Anyways, I'm assuming that you will be at the same place I will be Saturday and as such I have a submerge and volcanic you could borrow for the event if you're still in need by then. I'm also hoping there aren't too many more of us.

[Einherjer]

That are just your insane draws. Actually it is the opposite. :P

This sentece just displays your inexperience with Show and Tell builds. Ive been playing old SneakAttack and HiveMind and both were not as consistent as this deck is.

On the weekend Ill do some decent testing-session against UWB Terminator - maybe 25-25 again. I will test Through the Breach in the sideboard. Do you guys have any other sideboarding-plan youd like to have tested extensivly? If not Ill just do 10 preboard and 20 postboard or so to display a % for the MU.(Actually UWB is way stronger than UW due to Thoughtseize+Extirpate)

Greetings

[Final Fortune]

I think the people who complain about the deck being inconsistent are the same people who insist on playing Intuition, I haven't had any problems since moving away from Intuition to Pre-Ordain at all.

I do not understand how you guys who are playing Misdirection and Daze are beating the Storm matchup, I am playing all 8 of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm between the MD and the SB and still struggling pre and post-board vs 8 and 11 disruption spells respectively.

REB just seems worse than Flusterstorm for the people who are SBing it, it offers nothing, or next to nothing, vs non control and aggro-control match ups and doesn't give the deck the ability to play the control roll vs Storm, Reanimator or Dredge or protect itself against discard - which it badly needs to be able to do -

I also HATE City of Traitors and don't think you should bother to play it as more than a 1x, you always rather draw an Ancient Tomb on your way to ramping up to Sneak Attack fwiw.

[catmint]

Sneak&Show is more consistent than hive mind (which is basically a 3 card combo with a lot more dead cards and a more conditional win) and obv. stronger than old sneak attack. I would not say Sneak&Show is inconsistent, it would not be such a good deck without a certain level of consistency, but it is not consistent in a sense how Maverick or Burn is consistent. You will have draws with multiple creatues and no brainstorm to shuffle it back. Maverick and Burn will just play the business spells they draw and support their gamplan.

[Water_Wizard]

On the weekend Ill do some decent testing-session against UWB Terminator - maybe 25-25 again. I will test Through the Breach in the sideboard. Do you guys have any other sideboarding-plan youd like to have tested extensivly? If not Ill just do 10 preboard and 20 postboard or so to display a % for the MU.(Actually UWB is way stronger than UW due to Thoughtseize+Extirpate)
Greetings
Philipp, what sideboard are you using for this match up? I see your sideboard as:

//Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap

I'm not sure Through the Breach shines in the UWB Terminator match up - is there something you're worried about them S&Ting into play? Given the list you posted on 5.27, is your sideboard plan -3 Lotus Petal, -2 Intuition, +3 REB, +2 Spell Pierce?


The plan with GDC was when Blood Moon is maindeck. You have too many dead cards main with Misdirection so being in something that does SOMETHING. With moons or needles maindeck that doesnt make sense. Again its all about trimming dead weight for something that does relevant stuff.

I vasically chose to ignore the discard and combo matchup. We can generally counter relevant stuff va combo and try to Ponder/Brainstorm the key vards to setup Sneak Attack against discard strategies. Liliana might be a problem against this plan however.
Do you cut Pierce vs. Maverick? Seems relevant vs. Choke and GSZ (obviously less relevant vs. GSZ if your are bringing in 4 GDC).

BUG has been on a hiatus lately. RUG dominating has kept Storm at bay. If Sneak & Show continues to do well, I think BUG with Edicts, discard, and Liliana will pick up again. I also think Storm will come out and play. I don't think our match-up vs. Storm is bad because we run so many counterspells (more than most control decks).

We'll see what happens this weekend.

[Sloshthedark]

I don't think our match-up vs. Storm is bad because we run so many counterspells (more than most control decks).

We'll see what happens this weekend.

Your storm match-up isn't bad anymore because of Griselbrand not because of ~8 relevant counterspells

[Deez_Naughts]

I was discussing legacy with my Eternal format team, and the growing amount of Show & Tell in our meta. I was looking for some new tech (or old school) to swing the mirror, and suggested Gilded Drake.

In our initial testing it seems quite good now that Griselbrand has replaced Progenitus.

If they are not running the Through the Breach tech, you effectively neutralize their Show and Tell line of play (unbeknownst to them post board game 2). You can then focus your counters on their Sneak line of play, or simply win off Drake.

It also has some eclectic uses like pinching a Knight, a re-animation target, Etc;

I'm not saying it's optimal, just sharing some ideas. If anyone has tested this please share your view point.

[bfeingersh]

Scoundrel!!! My list is very similar the only thing I would advise is replacing atleast one of the pierces with a Misdirection. Anyways, I'm assuming that you will be at the same place I will be Saturday and as such I have a submerge and volcanic you could borrow for the event if you're still in need by then. I'm also hoping there aren't too many more of us.

DHG? That's where I'll be. I should be able to find the rest of the stuff from the other Bostonians I'm heading down with, but thanks. We should definitely meet up since I don't think we've met off the source :P

[Einherjer]

Philipp, what sideboard are you using for this match up? .
Oh sorry that I didnt mention it. The sideboard I posted earlier was the one for my local meta. THIS is the one Id play at a big tournament and which is the base of my tests (wouldnt make much sense to test a local-sideboard)

3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Through the Breach
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon( not sure about this slot. As mentioned Im no fan of it vs Maverick as Peedle is superior, but if BUG keeps to arise Ill have to play BloodMoon...)

When I play vs UWB CounterTop my sideboard-tech is: - 2 Intuition - 4 Lotus Petal +3(2) Through the Breach +2 Blood Moon +1(2) Red Elemental Blast

Greetings

[JDK]

This sentece just displays your inexperience with Show and Tell builds. Ive been playing old SneakAttack and HiveMind and both were not as consistent as this deck is.
Just because you compare the deck to it's older form doesn't make it super consistent overall. Sure, for a combo deck it is relatively consistent, but because of it's nature not as consistent as e.g. Maverick and Canadian. Doing "unfair" things, as you put it, is exactly what this deck is made for.

@menace13
Dream Halls is playing Progenitus because he is multicolored, a decent SnT target and gets shuffled into the library again...

[Water_Wizard]

Philipp,
Thank you. Why do you run the 3rd TtB? If you are uncertain about Blood Moon, I would run Vendilion Clique. Vendilion Clique is limited against Aggro matches, but against combo/control, it acts as disruption, information, and a clock.
I would do:
-4 LP
-2 Int
+2 TtB
+2 REB
+3 V. Clique

What tournament are you playing in? What match-ups do you expect?

[Koby]

Do you cut Pierce vs. Maverick? Seems relevant vs. Choke and GSZ (obviously less relevant vs. GSZ if your are bringing in 4 GDC).

BUG has been on a hiatus lately. RUG dominating has kept Storm at bay. If Sneak & Show continues to do well, I think BUG with Edicts, discard, and Liliana will pick up again. I also think Storm will come out and play. I don't think our match-up vs. Storm is bad because we run so many counterspells (more than most control decks).

We'll see what happens this weekend.

Basically, I was using an older list that still has Blood Moons maindeck. That changes how SB works since you still have Misdirection to cut and not much to bring in - enter GDC. With my newer list, I would bring in:

+4 Pithing Needle
-3 Misdirection
-1 Spell Pierce

I'm not really worried about Choke since we can still fire off an enabler with Sol lands and Lotus Petals. Now that someone mentioned it, I think Submerge might have some merit afterall.

[catmint]

Submerge? What if Maverick does not side out mothe rof runes?

[Esper3k]

Submerge? What if Maverick does not side out mothe rof runes?

They still have to get it out and active before you Show & Tell. It's just something to consider if you're going to be going in on the T2/3 Show & Tell and want some protection against Knights.

[Koby]

I'm mostly just thinking out loud. I'm going to get some more games in tonight against Maverick to decide what's the best method. Submerge gets much better vs Bant than it does Maverick - and that's where I fear Karakas more

FoW + KotR + Karakas = :frown:

[Einherjer]

What tournament are you playing in? What match-ups do you expect?

Normally I am playing in my own local tournaments - but I got some own sideboards for this. The sideboard displayed above is for GP Ghent, even though it's still under construction. Its built to beat the Decks to Beat (of my view): Canadian Threshold, Maverick, LED-Dredge, SneakAttack, UW Terminator.

Greetings

[rxavage]

DHG? That's where I'll be. I should be able to find the rest of the stuff from the other Bostonians I'm heading down with, but thanks. We should definitely meet up since I don't think we've met off the source :P


Yup, DHG. No worries. We can meet up and share techs, I'm really curious to see how trinisphere has been working for you. I may end up with blood moon main and siding 3spheres and some number of through the breach. And I'd also considering pithing needle moving forward depending on how it goes this weekend, then onto SCG Worcester.

[bfeingersh]

Yup, DHG. No worries. We can meet up and share techs, I'm really curious to see how trinisphere has been working for you. I may end up with blood moon main and siding 3spheres and some number of through the breach. And I'd also considering pithing needle moving forward depending on how it goes this weekend, then onto SCG Worcester.

I literally haven't played a game with this deck yet but I'm planning to test tonight!

[catmint]

FoW + KotR + Karakas = :frown:
Pithing Needle for Karakas and their occasional turn 3 Jace are strong vs. bant. Opponents having FoW is not really an issue. Did not play it yet, but I think should be a positive matchup.

[JPA]

Pithing Needle for Karakas and their occasional turn 3 Jace are strong vs. bant. Opponents having FoW is not really an issue. Did not play it yet, but I think should be a positive matchup.

Bant with Clique, Jace, Karakas, is actually the worst matchup Sneak Show has, at least in my experience. In games 2 and 3 they have even more countermagic. Plus, they have a quite fast clock with Hierarchs and Knight, so we have to fight the aggressiveness of Maverick paired with the countersuit of a control deck.

Luckily and strangely, I haven't seen much Bant in the past months.

[sdematt]

That's because Bant is caught in the middle, which is getting eaten alive.

I just wanted to say I put this deck together to gauntlet, and man is it fun. Pounding face with big monsters is usually amazingly fun. It does suffer from the same problems of "I have one piece but not the other, so either you kill me or I topdeck and get you."

Other than that, super fun. I could easily play this deck for 9-10 rounds of Legacy, since the decision trees aren't quite as numerous as other decks.

-Matt

[Koby]

Aye, it's very easy to pilot at 70%, and with a little effort (like playtesting more than 30 min before an event) could be very easy to do very well.

It's only short list for GP Atlanta at this point.

PS: My favorite thing about this deck is that both enablers are available in Korean. :laugh:

[S1N1STER]

Aye, it's very easy to pilot at 70%, and with a little effort (like playtesting more than 30 min before an event) could be very easy to do very well.

It's only short list for GP Atlanta at this point.

PS: My favorite thing about this deck is that both enablers are available in Korean. :laugh:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg843/scaled.php?server=843&filename=sneakattacka.jpg&res=landing

Picked up one back during Urza block and just recently got the other 3.

[Koby]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg843/scaled.php?server=843&filename=sneakattacka.jpg&res=landing

Picked up one back during Urza block and just recently got the other 3.

I wish I could just put that picture in my signature. Hot sauce extra spicy.

[rxavage]

That is a sexy set of Sneak attack.

[Jessenator]

How are your guy's counter packages working? I'm doubting the lack of Daze in the deck. The card is incredibly good and it allows your cards to go off as early as possible. It's a very easy side board card that you can side out. 3 Misdirections may be too much especially with the meta filled with Maverick.

Right now I'm going 3 Daze, 2 Pierce, 2 Misdirection and 4 FoW. The Dazes has been working wonderfully. Stopping things from Thalia and Sylvan Library. It's also a very good card against RUG if your hand supports a turn 2-3 combo. As RUG are often like to be greedy and establish threats and cantrips early and sit on soft counter magic. Daze punishes that early aggression.

I've found without Progenitus, the deck is lacking more targets for FoW and Misdirection. Often I would have combination of FoW and Misdirection sitting in my hand and waiting on a blue source to make those live, very frustrating. Daze does not have those problems. Let me know what you guys think about my counter package. And what about Flusterstorm v. Pierce in main/side?

[bfeingersh]

I'm on 4 FoW, 3 Pierce, 2 Daze, 2 Flusterstorm. Daze feels like the weak link to me.

[Einherjer]

Ive been playing quite a while with Daze but it's been underwhelming due to this reasons:
1) When you go off T1 with Sol-Land + Peta Daze is urgh, wheres FoW/Misdirection shines
2) When you go off later, Daze looses all of his power
3) When you Daze a Thalia it is no great thing, as youre one land behind instead of paying one mana more? See the difference? 1 card in your hand vs 2 dmg/turn...sounds bad to me

So my Suite atm is:
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
Sideboard: 2 Red Elemental Blast

Greetings

[Deez_Naughts]

My counter's main are:

4x FoW
3x MisD
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce

[JPA]

The most succesful counter-suite lately has been 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce Main and Blasts or 1 additional Spell Pierce in the sideboard.

I do agree that Daze has its upsides, but didn't we discuss that already some weeks ago?

[Water_Wizard]

The counterspell package is on of the most hotly debated topics on the Sneak & Show thread. Why? Because:
1) the counter-suite is one of the few "flexible" aspects of the deck (the mana base, combo package, and cantrips are relatively agreed upon), and
2) the counterspell package is meta/player dependent. We each expect to see different things each week and we each have our own preferred play styles.

As Philipp put it:


...we all know the pros/cons for each counter and we are not going to convice those who think Flusterstorm/Daze is pro and Flusterstorm/Daze(choose what you didnt choose earlier) is bad... Let's just be it like:"Its a decision of personal play-style! (emphasis added)"

I'm going to:

1) Outline the issues regarding Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm;
2) Summarize some (not all) of the previous arguments made in this thread (there are some really good posts for and against all of the cards, but for the sake of brevity, I could not include them all.); and,
3) Create a decision tree to help players decide which counter spells are best for their decks.

To start with the opening post (which, by the way, has some really good information about sideboard cards as well):



4 Force of Will: Nothing to argue about here; we play a blue deck that needs protection so we play a playset of Forces.

0-3 Misdirection: It makes our bad matchups better, while being dead against things like Maverick (where it can only be a Force pitch or change the target of a swords if you’re running creatures other than Emmy or Proggy). But the fact that it is so strong against discard, which hurts us a lot, and that it acts as a Force of Will against a counterspell makes it necessary to test in your environment.

0-4 Daze: Seen by some as controversial in Sneak Show. While it is nice for countering a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary, it does set us one turn back if it’s not used while going off. Especially when it has to counter an opposing Careful Study or an Aether Vial, Spell Pierce is often more effective (that is, if you didn't ponder turn 1). Daze can be very strong in game 1 and many lists play 3 Daze main and 3 Spell pierce to replace them post-board if needed.

0-3 Spell Pierce: Many players opt for Spell Pierce over Daze in the maindeck. Most that don't run them main include some number in the board. (See sideboard section.)

0-3 Flusterstorm: Some prefer Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce because it's more effective against counters/discard/storm strategies/everything that matters against us in the current meta outside of Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

0-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Serves a variety of functions, including protection, and is popular with some players. Proponents argue that he a) draws out counters, further ensuring successful resolution of the combo; b) buys time by digging or bouncing while preparing to go off, in effect gaining life while solidifying the combo; c) opens up the option of bouncing Emrakul after a Sneak Attack assault; d) provides protection when putting creatures in off of Show and Tell, marginalizing any creature that they choose; e) and is an out to opposing Jaces. Opponents argue that he is too often a 4 mana sorcery speed brainstorm or echoing truth that gains 3-4 life, and that his slots are better filled by more counters or acceleration. Uniquely, Sneak Show offers a consistent turn 3 Jace. Ultimately, it comes down to play-style preference. Lists running Jace tend to combo out (slightly) more slowly, but gain some versatility and interactivity that the strategy otherwise lacks.


You can see the primer is a little dated (it was last updated in April), as it mentions Progenitus over Griselbrand. Progenitus does have the extra option of being a blue pitch card.

I included the part about Jace because it is another 'must counter' spell for an opponent and, if it sticks, it creates card advantage and can do some nice tricks with Sneak Attack (bouncing end of turn) and Show and Tell (bouncing that Knight they just dropped). Jace also legend rules opponents' Jaces. While Jace hasn't seen any play as of late, it is a card to consider.

Next quote...

My buddy Alex and I played the exact same deck day 1, except he had 3 pierces and I had 3 flusterstorms. Day 2 he ran with pierces as well and I was partially convinced by him to split into 2 flusterstorm, 1 pierce. Afterwards we both agreed, irrespective of our results that some number of flusterstorms is better than pierces.

Throughout the weekend I never found a reason to use spell pierce and the couple of times I drew it it wasn't relevant. I think about the only cards relevant for pierce vs flusterstorm are Jace, Liliana, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge...pretty short list right?

My main reason for Flusterstorm vs pierce just came down to just a better matchup against combo. If you have flusterstorm vs pierce, the matchup against combo improves - storm, high tide, dreams halls, etc. and it is more likely that you can win counterwars against control decks.


Takeaway: Flusterstorm is better than Pierce vs. Combo and Control. Noted.

However, as the Primer and Dresden note, Pierce is better against Walkers, Enchantments and Artifacts. Meta game decision.

Decision tree:
1) I expect to face: a) many combo decks, or b) control decks without permanent hate = run Flusterstorm
2) I expect to face: a) tempo decks with "efficient" mana bases, or b) control decks with permanent hate (Jace, Liliana, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, etc.), or c) an unknown meta = run Spell Pierce (as Spell Pierce has a boarder applicability).

As JPAnghelescu (who also helped write the primer to this thread) notes:

The most succesful counter-suite lately has been 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce Main and Blasts or 1 additional Spell Pierce in the sideboard.

This recent trend towards Spell Pierce is due to two reasons: 1) Combo isn't being played much right now (RUG Tempo keeps Storm at bay), and 2) In an unknown or shifting meta, which is common with a new set release, Spell Pierce is a better catch-all than Flusterstorm.

Up next, the question of blue pitch cards (to FOW/Misdirection)...

[The Colonel]

Since we're posting counter suites I'll post mine and my opinions on them.


4 FoW
3 Flusterstorm
3 Daze
2 MisD

also 3 Pierce on the board

4 Force is a given

3 Flusterstorm is optimal IMO. I've found it to be better than Pierce because often it hits multiple counters or forces the opponent to pay more than 2. It's also better than Pierce against storm combo because you can hold it until they play their deadly spell. This way you don't have to worry about which mana producer to counter and just wait till they empty their hand and then counter each one of their 10 copies of what ever crazy storm spell they play.

3 Daze; now if you go back to pages 13-25 or somthing of this thread you'll find I was a daze opponent. Now I'm a proponent. Yes, a turn 1 victory is cool and does occassionally happen, and yes sometimes the deck has to go to turn 12 to win. But MAINLY we win turns 2-4 and in those turns Daze is just the best. It means having the ability to tap out playing S&T and a 1 mana cost counter for backup and then Daze wins the counter war when you bounce your tapped Island.

2 MisD. Well, I used to run 3-4 but I was just tired of my OP casting Jace or Knight the turn before I would win and looking at my hand to find MisD. So I cut it back to 2 and found that it works really well and is easy to side out for Pierce or REB.




Also I would like to say that I've found that 2 Intuition MD is the way to go, at least in my running of the deck. It helps us get that all important game 1 victory. And then I almost always side out them to avoid the all to ever present Surgical Extraction which can wreck us and bring in Spell Pirece of Blood Moon or whatever.

[Water_Wizard]

To pitch, or not to pitch, is the question. i.e. the question of how many "pitch counters" to run (i.e. Force of Will and Misdirection). As both Jessenator and I noted, is it really right to play 7 blue pitch counters (see quotes below)?

Let's look at the deck's blue-card count (I'll use a sample list for purposes of discussion):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Spell Piece
4 Show and Tell


25 blue cards, plus 23 Mana Cards (19 lands and 4 Lotus Petals), plus 12 other combo pieces (4 Sneak Attack, 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakul).

Conventional wisdom tells us we want at least 17 blue cards to run with 4 FOW, with 18 or 19 being preferred. In this deck, we have 25, but we also run 3 Misdirection.

However, post-board (games 2 and 3), we frequently cut blue cards (i.e., We cut Intuition every game. However, if the blue cards we are cutting are Misdirections, then, not that big of a deal).

So, cutting Intuition, we go down to 23 blue cards.

Cutting Show and Tell (say vs. the mirror, Reanimator, or Belcher), we go down to 19 blue cards (dangerously low with 7 pitch counters).

Against RUG/BUG, we want to bring in Blood Moon (if Sneak and Show continues to do well, you can expect BUG to gain popularity as the antidote), but what do we cut? -2 Intuition, -2 Misdirection, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 REB, +3 Blood Moon seems like our best bet. Keeps our blue count at 21 with 6-pitch counters (this is the bare minimum ratio I would run).

Some general observations about counters:

Daze shines against combo and tempo decks, where they are likely to: 1) utilize their mana every turn (tap out) and 2) you want to go off quickly due to their increased clock.

Misdirection shines against control decks because it is a "hard" counter. Control decks are more likely to wait, leaving mana open to pay for Daze or Spell Pierce. Additionally, we have more time to sculpt our hand against control decks, since we won't face much of a clock (i.e. holding an extra blue card to pitch to FOW/Misdirection is not as big of a deal).

A few additional notes about Misdirection.
1) It protects Griselbrand from Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile (assuming there is another creature on board). This becomes relevant when you play Griselbrand, they target with STP/PTE, you draw 7 to find an answer, you would like to hit a Misdirection/FOW.
2) Misdirection is very solid against discard, except duress.
3) Misdirection, along with Force of Will, Sneak Attack, and monsters dodges Inquisition of Kozilek.

As a side note, neither Daze or Misdirection is very good against aggro decks, such as Maverick, hence why both are usually the first cards to be boarded out (Daze can be decent against Maverick on the play, but the tempo loss on the draw is usually not worthwhile and Misdirection, outside of Misdirecting a STP aimed at Griselbrand, is worthless against Maverick.).

Which brings us to the question of blue pitch cards. As previously noted...


I stopped running Misdirection due to a) it's limited uses (only hits other spells) and b) the fact it needs another blue card. The second effect is the largest reason why I cut it.

I prefer to have 2 counters in order to go off (sometimes one is enough). However, if I am going to have 2 counters plus business, that requires 6 cards if I am using FOW/Misdirection. What blue cards am I going to be holding? Pierce- I would most likely use it, Cantrips - I most likely used them to sculpt my hand. S&T - I'm most likely going to use it to combo.

I like Misdirection, but 2/3 Misdirection with 4 FOW requires too many blue cards in hand. Considering most of our blue cards are designed to build or implement the combo, I just had too many hands where I had 2 pitch counterspells and not enough blue cards.


and


How are your guy's counter packages working? I'm doubting the lack of Daze in the deck. The card is incredibly good and it allows your cards to go off as early as possible. It's a very easy side board card that you can side out. 3 Misdirections may be too much especially with the meta filled with Maverick.

Right now I'm going 3 Daze, 2 Pierce, 2 Misdirection and 4 FoW. The Dazes has been working wonderfully. Stopping things from Thalia and Sylvan Library. It's also a very good card against RUG if your hand supports a turn 2-3 combo. As RUG are often like to be greedy and establish threats and cantrips early and sit on soft counter magic. Daze punishes that early aggression.

I've found without Progenitus, the deck is lacking more targets for FoW and Misdirection. Often I would have combination of FoW and Misdirection sitting in my hand and waiting on a blue source to make those live, very frustrating. Daze does not have those problems. Let me know what you guys think about my counter package. And what about Flusterstorm v. Pierce in main/side?

Griselbrand's replacement of Progenitus reduced our blue count by 4 (or 3 in some decks).

Breaking our blue cards into categories, we have:
11 'cantrips' (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 1 Preordain, 2 Intuition)
10 counterspells (4 FOW, 3 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce)
4 combo pieces (4 Show and Tell)

Which of these are we willing to pitch?

Cantrips- most likely we have used or will use them to assemble the combo or counterspells in our hands. There is the possibility we have a "left over" cantrip.

Counterspells- I could see pitching a FOW to a Misdirection or vice versa or pitching a Spell Pierce (if my hand were something like FOW, FOW, Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Monster, Combo Piece).

Show and Tell - It is possible we have 2 Show and Tell in hand or 1 Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack.

1) However, if I have 2 Show and Tell, I would rather cast one, bait a counter, and cast another the following turn.

2) If I have Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, I would rather use one as bait and push through the other the following turn (I realize there are corner cases where a) "We have to go off this turn," or b) We don't want to cast S&T because they will drop Knight, Belcher, Humility into play, but these are corner cases.

Replacing Progenitus with Griselbrand is an overall improvement to the deck, but it hurts Misdirection, because one of the most common pitch situations is: I have two Monsters in hand, I only need to get one into play, let me pitch Progenitus to FOW/Misdirection to allow Emrakul or my other Progenitus to get into play. However, we now have more of a need for Misdirection in the deck to protect Griselbrand (since Griselbrand may be targeted by Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile).

Those running 4 FOW/3 Misdirection, no problems with not having enough blue pitch cards? Most of our blue cards are 'business' cards and Jessenator and I have found it unlikely that we will have extra blue cards waiting to pitch.

[Water_Wizard]

4 FoW
3 Flusterstorm
3 Daze
2 MisD

also 3 Pierce on the board



You run 12 Counters, I assume 16 Combo Pieces. How many mana slots and cantrips?
23 Mana Slots and you only have room for 9 cantrips (2 Intuition, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder?).

Are you running REB in your board (in addition to the 3 Spell Pierce)?

Thanks!

[Jessenator]

I'm on my phone right now so it's a little hard to write in completely organized formats. I have realized the problem with 7 pitch counters during my last few weeks of testing. Daze is extremely vital vs RUG tempo in my opinion. Sometimes we should be patient and wait to draw another blue card to make let's say.. FoW and Misdirection live. Against Tempo decks we cannot afford to wait and do that. They'll be throwing bolts at us constantly and spamming threats the first few turns.

Daze is an option vs lower mana decks. The only matchup I am scared of is the RUG tempo matchup. The fact that a lot of people are running 3-4 Pierce over Stifle is pretty scary. They'll leave up 1 mana at the end of turn to probably use the Pierce. We can easily play around their Daze and Daze their Pierce.

All our blue cards in our deck are "business" cards and I often use the cantrips to find combo pieces and the pitch discards would often be dead. I am considering Flusterstorm over pierce or a combination of both. Lost to Flusterstorm a few matches I have played, especially when my friend sided it in during the mirror. 7 pitch discard meaning that we either ditch one for the other, or wait and draw a blue card in order to use it. In a format where RUG tempo is dominant, we cannot afford to do so at times. We need cheap efficient counters that are immune to their Dazes.

[The Colonel]

@Water_Wizard


16 slots for combo peices (4 Sneak, 4 S&T, 8 creatures)

12 slots for counters (as previously stated)

10 slots for cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder, 2 Intuition)..... not sold on preordain just yet

19 slots for land (I use 19 because I run 3 Cities and 3 Tomb) which I've found to be
more than enough. I won't lay a City until the turn I "go for it" so
wasteland is rarley a problem.
3 slots for petal (I know some people like 4 but 3 is all I've ever needed to find one for
a second Sneak activation off of Grislebrand)
___
60 Cards total


I make the extra 2 slots for counters available from running 1 less land and 1 less petal. I think I speak for everyone when I say that lossing a counter battle with this deck is EXTREMELY frustrating and defeating. The extra 2 counters go a long way. I ussually find that I can go 3 counters deep when trying to go off.

I run 2 REB on the board currently though I have been considering cutting them. Mainly for Jace because I do run 3 Flusterstorm MD. They ussually come out when I run into a Jace deck. (-3 Fluster, -2 Intuistion, +3 Pierce, +2 REB)



Comments are most appreciated. Criticism is very welcome and always appreciated.

[Water_Wizard]

Colonel,

Thanks for your response. I run a similar list, except +1 Petal, +1 Preordain, -2 Counters. However, I like your finding that 3 Petals is often enough, so I may drop to 3 Petals in order to add an 11th counter. The Preordain is in place of a 20th land and it is a change I am happy I made.

Regarding your sideboarding strategy, I ran into a similar situation. I was running a combination of 5 cards against control decks - a combination of 5 of the following: Vendilion Cliques, Red Elemental Blasts, Pyroblasts, Flusterstorms, and/or Spell Pierces.

The situation I encountered is not having "enough" slots to swap during sideboarding. As our deck is pretty tight (there isn't much to take in/out vs. against most of our match ups), I was having difficulty freeing 5 slots to bring cards in against the control match up.

As you mentioned, you bring in 2 REB and 3 Spell Pierce and cut 2 Intuition and 3 Flusterstorm. I also cut the 2 Intuitions (as is heavily noted throughout this thread, they come out versus most post-board match ups). However, I could not justify cutting Flusterstorms against a control deck. I decided to cut Lotus Petals instead. My strategy being: hit my land drops, sculpt my hand, and go off with as many 1-mana counters as possible, plus the help of FOW/Misdirection. I figured in most "sculpting" situations (basically, draw-go as the control player leaves mana open to pay for our conditional counters and both players sculpt their hands), I would rather draw a Flusterstorm off the top, as opposed to a Lotus Petal. I realize there are certain situations where a timely Lotus Petal can be the difference in forcing through an early combo piece, but I thought, on the whole, it would be better to have more counterspells.

Another reason I cut Lotus Petal over Flusterstorm is it improves our blue count. Related to my earlier post, our blue count is crucial to effectively using FOW and Misdirection. If we plan to cut Intuition every game, then we are down to 23 blue cards (on average). The Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm exchange keeps the blue count at 23. However, a Spell Pierce/Lotus Petal exchange improves the blue count to 26 in a match up where "pitch-counters" really shine.

On a related note: Vendilion Clique is very nice against combo/control match-ups. The current meta is more Tempo oriented, where V. Clique is not as good, but if/when the meta shifts, I expect all of us to be running 2-3 Vendilion Cliques in our sideboards.

[The Colonel]

@Wizard

I totally understand why you would say "side out petal over flusterstorm against control decks." One of my other decks is counterbalance/thopters. Which is as heavy as a control deck you can play. And I can tell you from experiance the way to beat these decks is speed; raw, nasty speed. (my 3rd and final deck is Maverick, just an FYI). I used to go slow against the control decks but you're playing right into their hands. Against these decks you want the game over by turn 4. You'll never have enough counters/answers against heavy control decks if the game goes late.

Clique...Clique Clique Clique.... I just debated on giving you a long winded answer on why I don't like them. Hell, I'll just say it: I can't justify $paying$ for them. As far as the card it's self. Costs 3, for this deck the only thing you want to pay more than 1 for is Your win cons. Gitaxian Probe** does mainly the same thing for 2-3 less. I know it doesn't get rid of a problem card but hell, it lets you see their hand which can be the most important thing Clique does.


**Disclaimer**
This post is in no way starting a discussion on including Gitaxian Probe
**Disclaimer**

[Water_Wizard]

I like your disclaimer.

I like your perspective on control. Counter top I would treat differently than a U/W list without counter top or top/terminus. The reason is, as you mention, giving them more time is "playing directly into their hands." Especially with counter top, once Counterbalance hits play, all of our 1-caster counterspells are worthless, so speed trumps in this match and Flusterstorm is no good, considering it can't counter Counterbalance.

Against the traditional StoneBlade list (without Counterbalance), I advocate the "Grinding Station" plan, basically, sculpt your hand, draw one more threat than they have answers, and push the combo through.

I am interested why you think Clique is bad (besides the money). I like it for two reasons: 1) Flash - you can cast it end of turn 3 to set up your turn 4 combo - they must counter it or lose a counterspell (they are losing a counterspell either way, baring drawing into another one) and it gives you valuable information if left uncountered, and 2) it's a clock - perhaps Clique was more effective during the Progenitus era, because all Swords to Plowshares used to be boarded out (now some are left in for Griselbrand), but it does form an alternate win condition. There is a corner case that it provides Edict/Liliana protection, but that is a pretty particular situation.

There is a reason Reed Duke runs 4 Vendilion Cliques in all of his NO RUG lists. V. Clique is the ultimate e.o.t. 3 play (for the above mentioned reasons). Colonel, please provide your "long winded answer". There are two sides to every coin and I'm interested in your perspective. As I noted above, I don't feel Clique is very good in a tempo environment, but I do feel it is solid against control/combo. As a closing note, Clique is very solid against combo, as we can hold mana open for counters and it creates a clock (plus it's an extra blue card to pitch).

To summarize Clique:
Tempo/Aggro: Not very good against these decks
Control: Gives information, makes them use/lose a counter, creates a clock, alternate win condition
Combo: Allows us to cast e.o.t. (keeping mana open for counters), gives information, causes them to lose a combo piece (assuming they don't draw a new one), creates a clock

[Jessenator]

I really like the Preordain, its even better than the Ponder at times. I really don't think 18 or 20 lands is the way to go either. Right now I'm running the typical 19 and I don't have a problem with it. I did cut a Volcanic Island for a basic Island. I rather start with the Island than a Volcanic. There was maybe once I needed to fetch for a Volc and I didn't have it, but that's over the course of about 40 matches.

Vendillion Clique is definitely a very viable card, I'm expected to see a lot of SnT type of decks this weekend and that card is an absolutely wreckage against them if played correctly. I'm just worried about having room in the sideboard. What has been your guy's sidedeck? I'm debating between Pyroclasm and Blood Moon. So far it looks like this..

3 Blood Moon
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Through the Breach (want to up to 2).

I also want stuff like Flusterstorm in the side too. Since Dazes are very easy side outs game 2 and 3 if you're on the draw.