[DTB] Sneak Attack

[Jessenator]

You run 12 Counters, I assume 16 Combo Pieces. How many mana slots and cantrips?
23 Mana Slots and you only have room for 9 cantrips (2 Intuition, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder?).

Are you running REB in your board (in addition to the 3 Spell Pierce)?

Thanks!

I really don't think REB is needed in the sideboard if you have Flusterstorm in the main and Pierces in the side. Having that Volc vs Maverick or RUG probably is not the best thing to do. Its better to play soft counters that involve blue mana off your basic Island.

I really want to go up to 3 Intuition though, especially for longer match up where some of your stuff gets countered, but I know its not the most consistent thing in the world to have in your hand when you open at times.

[Water_Wizard]

Jess- Do you want to post your whole list? It's hard to comment on your sideboard without seeing your other 60.

[S1N1STER]

I got to hard cast Emrakul tonight for the first time with this deck. It was game 2 vs. re-animator, I started out with a cage on turn 1, then he won the counter war over a pithing needle thanks to his flusterstorm. I sided out my show and tell's and did not side in any echoing truths so it was just draw, play land, go for a while until I got to 15 mana with the help of the sol lands and some petals.

[Water_Wizard]

Nice, nice, very nice! I've had that thought many a game, but have yet to live the dream.

EDIT: Who am I kidding? The dream is a turn 1 protected Show and Tell into Emrakul when they do not drop a Karakas or Knight of the Reliquary into play :)

[bfeingersh]

It's also better than Pierce against storm combo because you can hold it until they play their deadly spell. This way you don't have to worry about which mana producer to counter and just wait till they empty their hand and

This never actually works, just saying.

I do agree though, Flusterstorm is awesome.

[slaydo]

I got to hard cast Emrakul tonight for the first time with this deck. It was game 2 vs. re-animator, I started out with a cage on turn 1, then he won the counter war over a pithing needle thanks to his flusterstorm. I sided out my show and tell's and did not side in any echoing truths so it was just draw, play land, go for a while until I got to 15 mana with the help of the sol lands and some petals.

At my last tournament I hardcast emradaddy in 2 different matches. That is pure awesomeness when you get to pull it off. My opp went OMGWTF!! lol and scoop in both cases. Needless to say, I won both those matches.

I have one question I need some help on, I just can't decide.

What counter package is best? FoW/Misdirection/Daze or FoW/Misdirection/Spell Pierce or FoW/Daze/Spell Pierce?

Thanks,

Slaydo

[rxavage]

At my last tournament I hardcast emradaddy in 2 different matches. That is pure awesomeness when you get to pull it off. My opp went OMGWTF!! lol and scoop in both cases. Needless to say, I won both those matches.

I have one question I need some help on, I just can't decide.

What counter package is best? FoW/Misdirection/Daze or FoW/Misdirection/Spell Pierce or FoW/Daze/Spell Pierce?

Thanks,

Slaydo


IMO the best configuration of the options provided is FoW/MisD/daze. Free counter magic shouldn't ever be underestimated, especially when you want to get your critter out asap.

[Suneloon]

Replacing Progenitus with Griselbrand is an overall improvement to the deck, but it hurts Misdirection, because one of the most common pitch situations is: I have two Monsters in hand, I only need to get one into play, let me pitch Progenitus to FOW/Misdirection to allow Emrakul or my other Progenitus to get into play.

Those running 4 FOW/3 Misdirection, no problems with not having enough blue pitch cards? Most of our blue cards are 'business' cards and Jessenator and I have found it unlikely that we will have extra blue cards waiting to pitch.

Thank you for all your awesome posts! Intelligent debate, is the whole reason why this forum is worth following.

I disagree however that Griselbrand over Progenitus, hurts Misdirection: Drawing 7/14 off Griselbrand, looking for a hard counter to protect him, comes up very often for me. And this is where Misirection shines. It doubles as protection for going of (here is where it may be worse than other counters), but it's real justification, is protecting a Griselbrand already in play. I'm playing more Misdirections now, than before Griselbrand.

Thanks!

[Water_Wizard]

And thank you for yours :)

Are you playing against Maverick or UW? I think the correct counter-suite is highly meta dependent. I've been facing a lot of combo (Storm and some Belcher), Burn, and RUG (plus some Goblins and other stuff). None of those decks run white, so I haven't faced much STP/PTE. The idea of Burn/RUG burning out Griselbrand is absurd and Misdirection can't interact with Belcher (outside of Misdirecting a post board Pyroblast) and Misdirection's only interact with Storm is with Thoughseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Cabal Therapy - it doesn't even hit Duress.

I see your point and I appreciate your feedback. If I expect to play against more white, I'll include more Misdirection in my list. How many do you run? Have you ever had a situation where you have no Misdirection targets (especially, say the turn after an Emrakul swing off a Sneak Attack)?

Also, assuming you're facing white, what's your plan for beating Karakas and Knight?

[Suneloon]

I agree that its essentially a meta choice. I currently play 3 Misdirection. I feel like discard really gets me. And that countering removal (which is live against us now), is a big deal.
Misdirection is rarely dead due to no targets, but off course it happens. Not a big factor I’d say.
Against Karakas: Someone said this a couple of pages back, and I’ve been all in on it ever since: Vs Karakas, your plan becomes, Sneak attack, with 2 red open and Emrakul in hand. It cuts of some lines of play for us, but we are by no means dead to it. This + Blood moon or Needle in the SB, makes me not worry too much about Karakas.

[Deez_Naughts]

Since we're posting counter suites I'll post mine and my opinions on them.


4 FoW
3 Flusterstorm
3 Daze
2 MisD

also 3 Pierce on the board

4 Force is a given

3 Flusterstorm is optimal IMO. I've found it to be better than Pierce because often it hits multiple counters or forces the opponent to pay more than 2. It's also better than Pierce against storm combo because you can hold it until they play their deadly spell. This way you don't have to worry about which mana producer to counter and just wait till they empty their hand and then counter each one of their 10 copies of what ever crazy storm spell they play.

3 Daze; now if you go back to pages 13-25 or somthing of this thread you'll find I was a daze opponent. Now I'm a proponent. Yes, a turn 1 victory is cool and does occassionally happen, and yes sometimes the deck has to go to turn 12 to win. But MAINLY we win turns 2-4 and in those turns Daze is just the best. It means having the ability to tap out playing S&T and a 1 mana cost counter for backup and then Daze wins the counter war when you bounce your tapped Island.

2 MisD. Well, I used to run 3-4 but I was just tired of my OP casting Jace or Knight the turn before I would win and looking at my hand to find MisD. So I cut it back to 2 and found that it works really well and is easy to side out for Pierce or REB.




Also I would like to say that I've found that 2 Intuition MD is the way to go, at least in my running of the deck. It helps us get that all important game 1 victory. And then I almost always side out them to avoid the all to ever present Surgical Extraction which can wreck us and bring in Spell Pirece of Blood Moon or whatever.

This is perceisly why Pierce main is superior to Flusterstorm, it hits everything we care about (save for Knight).

There is nothing worse than staring at a threat with a brick of counter in your hand, and just throwing away a game.

[Einherjer]

Ive done some intense testing vs UW Terminator yesterday evening. My opponent is like one step above me, considering play skill, and we got following results (counting for me):
0-2, 2-0, 1-2, 2-1, 2-1, 0-2
making it a 7-8

I would have lost horribly without my 3 Pithing Needles in the sideboard. My boarding-plan was:
-4 Lotus Petal
-2 Intuition
-2 Spell Pierce

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Through the Breach

Needle AND Through the Breach were 100% important for winning. I believe this MU to be a horro if you don't run a similar sideboard as I do. I am still testing my large-scale-sideboard tested before and I believe it's pretty well geared against the decks to beat atm. Would you guys suggest a different boarding-plan? What are you experiences with this MU? Do you go the "Combo-off-as-fast-as-possible-route" or do you play like me, first gain control, then overtake them with 11 buisness-spells costing 3,4 and 5?

Greetings

EDIT: Guys did you read all this shit in B/R about Show and Tell getting the axe? What do you think? It wouldn't mean a finacial loss to me, but also a personal - as Show and Tell has been my fav deck for the last year..what do you think?

[slaydo]

Thanks for the info
I too am wondering why it gets all the flak. there are people who dont want to learn to play against it by adjusting their deck with sb tools (of which there are plenty I might add). Instead they immediately scream ban this, ban that.. its op omgwtfbbq! (pardon my french). I am sure that wizards would have thought things over with griselbrand. Note, legacy is still predominantly a format where players like to play their favorite pet deck. When money is involved people who want to win play popular decks or decks that are good in. particular meta. I dont mind that, what I do mind is idiots screaming ban this ban that because its op.

I'd rather curb prize support of thousands of dollars to a lot lower amount, thus removing the urge and need of players to change over from their pet deck to the weekly flavor. Btw, when the mageblade lists surfaced as the dominant force at the last US GP no one cried ban hymn or sfm.

Food for thought that is all.

slaydo

[Deez_Naughts]

It gets the "flak" for being a completely degenerate card; compounded by WoTC desire to ever push the power level of huge nasty monsters.

Moreover, the card is so linear and powerful that any half wit can pilot it (if you think playing this deck successfully is honing your skill, your wrong). It has a bad flavor of another degenerate combo, Flash Hulk; but at least with that you had to do some thinking to combo off.

The other issue is Griselbrand. The power level on this card is obscene, and free draw 7's are a taboo issue. Since including him into my build, the influence on the deck was imidiate, and I find myself wanting to have him in play over Emrakul in most situations.

That being said, this archetype has not posted results that would indicate a problem exists that would warrant a ban. Furthermore the prevalence of Canadian Thresh and it's RUG off shoots really keep the format in check.

I can however see Griselbrand being watched with a very close eye, as he may be to good for this format.

[Jessenator]

Jess- Do you want to post your whole list? It's hard to comment on your sideboard without seeing your other 60.

My 60 is.

Creatures:
4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

3 Lotus Petal

2 Intuition
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

19 lands.
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty
4 Tarn
3 Tomb
2 Traitor
2 Volcanic

Sideboard consideration. I probably will include Blood Moon since Maverick / UW Control naturally drawing out Karakas means a bad g1 if they have any sort of defense / removal vs the Griselbrand that they cannot bounce back.

Cards for consideration
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm

[Jessenator]

Another thing I wanted to do was take out a Misdirection for a third Spell Piece / Flusterstorm in my 60. I feel the Daze + Pierce / Fluster combo is extremely powerful, especially the fact that the Daze adds another Storm counter to the equation. I really am not liking the misdirections a whole lot but if they do try to Thoughtseize you turn 1 the Misdirection allows you to blow them out and go off safely. The lack of blue cards is not giving me a high incentive to play more than 2 Misdirections..

[Esper3k]

And thank you for yours :)
Misdirection's only interact with Storm is with Thoughseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Cabal Therapy - it doesn't even hit Duress.

Just to note - against TES, you can also Misdirect the Chants as well.

[Koby]

Just to note - against TES, you can also Misdirect the Chants as well.

As well one copy of Tendrils in a pinch to avoid dying.

[Water_Wizard]

Just to note - against TES, you can also Misdirect the Chants as well.

Correct. You can Misdirect Orim's Chant, but not Silence. I'm noticing more of a 4/1 Silence/Chant split as of late, because Silence dodges Leyline of Sanctity (along with any other card giving a player hexproof) and Misdirection.


As well one copy of Tendrils in a pinch to avoid dying.

Good point, good point.

[Water_Wizard]

To summarize posts earlier in the page about Misdirection:

1) Misdirection protects Griselbrand from Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile (assuming there is another creature on board). This becomes relevant when you play Griselbrand, they target with STP/PTE, you draw 7 to find an answer, you would like to hit a Misdirection/FOW.

2) Misdirection is very solid against discard (Hymn, Thoughtseize, IoK, Cabal Therapy), except Duress.

3) Misdirection, along with Force of Will, Sneak Attack, and monsters dodge Inquisition of Kozilek.

4) Against Storm, Misdirection is able to target an Orim's Chant or a Tendrils of Agony copy in addition to Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Inquisition of Kozilek, and bounce spells (Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth, assuming there is another legal target).

[Water_Wizard]

Vendillion Clique is definitely a very viable card, I'm expected to see a lot of SnT type of decks this weekend and that card is an absolutely wreckage against them if played correctly. I'm just worried about having room in the sideboard. What has been your guy's sidedeck? I'm debating between Pyroclasm and Blood Moon. So far it looks like this..

3 Blood Moon
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Through the Breach (want to up to 2).

I also want stuff like Flusterstorm in the side too. Since Dazes are very easy side outs game 2 and 3 if you're on the draw.


Jess- Do you want to post your whole list? It's hard to comment on your sideboard without seeing your other 60.


My 60 is.

Creatures:
4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

3 Lotus Petal

2 Intuition
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

19 lands.
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty
4 Tarn
3 Tomb
2 Traitor
2 Volcanic

Sideboard consideration. I probably will include Blood Moon since Maverick / UW Control naturally drawing out Karakas means a bad g1 if they have any sort of defense / removal vs the Griselbrand that they cannot bounce back.

Cards for consideration
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm

I would make 1 small change to your main, -1 Misty Rainforest, +1 Volcanic Island.

I would not run the Pyroclasm. David McDarby said they were no good against RUG. Firespout is an option, but unless you are using a Petal to cast it (and pay G), it will not hit Delver and probably wouldn't kill a Goyf (assuming land, instant, sorcery in the graveyard). It could wipe the board vs. Maverick, assuming no Mother of Runes and Knight didn't get too big. Emrakul could also wipe the board vs. Maverick. So could Submerge.

Currently, I'm running
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Echoing Truth
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Through the Breach

My meta is very combo heavy, hence the Cliques and Through the Breach (for the mirror).

I'm considering going rogue and cutting the Echoing Truths all together. Why, might you ask, is Water Wizard being so risky? Well, let me tell you.

a) We don't face much hate. Yes, yes, perhaps the meta is shifting. Perhaps we can expect to see more Ensnaring Bridges...

b) We can counter the hate we face. Just don't let them drop it in off a Show and Tell (that will ruin your party), but that's what Through the Breach is for.

c) We can race the hate we face.

Ensnaring Bridge = 3 Drop.

Humility = 4 Drop (w/ WW plus limited deck compatibility).

Peacekeeper = 3 Drop (Owwww, this card hurts - should I run Gut Shot? How about Sudden Shock)?

Liliana = 3 Drop (and activated at sorcery speed).

Jace = 4 Drop (and activated at sorcery speed).

Out of all of these cards, Ensnaring Bridge is the only one that really concerns me because: a) it's colorless and can be run in any deck, and b) it's the most likely card we'll face.

Is it worth it to go 'naked' against permanent based hate in order to improve other match ups?

Second, Leyline of Sanctity has been unimpressive. In general, I've been skeptical of running any Leyline in a deck that can't naturally cast it. Yes, you can shuffle it away with Brainstorm. However, I am not going to mulligan an otherwise good hand to find a Leyline. Perhaps I haven't played against enough BUG decks, the match up in which Leyline really shines, but against Storm, Belcher, and Burn, it's been underwhelming.

Jessenator, regarding your sideboard. What I gathered above is that you expect to face Maverick, UW Control, and the Mirror. Given that prediction, I would make sure your sideboard includes:

3/4 Blood Moon or Pithing Needle (Phillip tested 50+ games and Needle is better vs. Maverick and UW)
2 Through the Breach
2/3 REB/Flusterstorm - I don't think you need to run 2 of each (I don't think you'll have enough slots to take out).
4 Leyline
3 Grafdigger's Cage

The irony of this sideboard, and all S&S sideboards is that we dedicate considerable sideboard space to match ups we don't expect to face (i.e. Leyling for BUG, Junk, Deadguy Ale (heavy discard / creature sac effect decks) and Dredge/Reanimator (I know Dredge is a tough match up, but is it worth 3/4 sideboard slots? Probably yes, but it does get old to dedicate ~25% of our sideboard space to one match up (realizing, GDC is good vs. the Reanimator mu as well (but it is mainly there for Dredge)).

Does anyone else feel like going 'rogue', cutting down on the dedicated discard/edict/graveyard hate and utilizing those slots for match ups we expect to face?

[Esper3k]

Yeah, Pyroclasm is really bad against Tarmogoyf. There just has to be one non-sorcery in the yard and Goyfs survive Pyroclasm.

I'm thinking of cutting Leyline of Sanctity as well (I've been actually looking at Outwit for something that isn't as horrible to draw outside our opener). I also haven't been seeing many BUG decks. Junk decks that run discard, I've usually been able to beat just either by Forcing / Misdirecting their T1 discard spell or protecting my goodies with Brainstorm. It's just the BUG decks that I think we really need Leylines for (although it may be more necessary if Edict effects start making more of a comeback, but Outwit also hits those too).

[rxavage]

So this is my general plan for tomorrow, bu I'll obviously have to make some boarding changes based on what I see.

CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

SPELLS 29
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Intuition

ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal

LANDS 19
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD :
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Reb
3 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach


U/x
-2 misdirection, -1 intiuition, -4 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 blast, +2 through the breach

G/w
-2 flusterstorm, -2 misdirection, -1 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 through the breach

Combo
-1 petal, -2 preordain --> +3 blood moon

Graveyard decks
--1 petal, -2 flusterstorm, -2 preordain--> +3 relic of progentius,+ 2 echoing truth

[Water_Wizard]

rxavage, Thanks for posting your list.

1) What is the extra Ancient Tomb for in the board? It isn't used in any of your sideboarding plans.

2) I like the plan vs. U/x and G/w.

Against a straight U/x list, Blood Moon might be underwhelming, as they run 6-7 basics. You are really only stopping Karakas, which they have no way of fetching (unlike G/w). It also shuts off their fetches, but it hits yours, too. It might be better to leave Misdirection in.

3) Against Combo, I'm not sure Blood Moon is enough. Yes, you could God hand it and get it off Turn 1 or 2, but assuming "normal" land drops, do you really want to tap out turn 3 to play it? Additionally, even if it does hit play, it may be too little, too late. With the amount of artifact mana certain types of combo run, it may be a moot point. Additionally, if you plan to God hand an early Blood Moon, you need to find an island of your own, which may be tough with only 3 in your deck and your fetchlands turned to mountains.

I think I would go -2 Preordain, +2 REB, leaving in the LP for speed.

4) Against graveyard, is Echoing Truth really that good? This is a general question, related to all decks, not just Sneak and Show. I read somewhere (I think in an SCG article) not to bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge because if you have to cast it, you're already losing. The same is true for Wrath of God, etc. Additionally, if the Dredge player is in Zombie token mode, they most likely have Cabal Therapied you at least two times. Assuming they go Cabal Therapy 1, naming X, and then see you have a Echoing Truth, Cabal Therapy 2 will most certainly name Echoing Truth. Since you have to cast the Echoing Truth in response, you will get the Zombie tokens off the first Cabal Therapy, but not the second one (and then they will name another card with the second Cabal Therapy since Echoing Truth is no longer in your hand). However, bouncing the Zombie tokens off of the first Echoing Truth may buy you a few turns.

General question: Is it worth bringing in reactive creature removal vs. Dredge (i.e. Echoing Truth or Wrath of God)? I realize in a white deck with STP (getting waayyyyy off topic here), STP would stay in to stop Ichorid/Putrid Imp/Fattie Grave Troll, but is it a winning play to board in Echoing Truth vs. Zombie tokens?

[Koby]

SIDEBOARD :
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Reb
3 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach


U/x
-2 misdirection, -1 intiuition, -4 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 blast, +2 through the breach

G/w
-2 flusterstorm, -2 misdirection, -1 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 through the breach

Combo
-1 petal, -2 preordain --> +3 blood moon

Graveyard decks
--1 petal, -2 flusterstorm, -2 preordain--> +3 relic of progentius,+ 2 echoing truth

What's the point of running 4 Relic SB if you're only bringing in 3? I would cut 1-2 Misdirection here too based on the specific strategy.

[rxavage]

What's the point of running 4 Relic SB if you're only bringing in 3? I would cut 1-2 Misdirection here too based on the specific strategy.

Now you've helped me decide what I want to cut for the 4th relic and the 3rd echoing truth. To be honest I found myself with 2 extra spaces so I threw in the extra relic and the tomb. I was considering shattering spree instead, there will be a few decks they would be useful against but am unsure if its worth it.


The truths are also there for permanent based hate. I was trying to brainstorm a sideboarding strategy before the tourney tomorrow. I never do that and always end up taking alot of time to think about the previous match , dead cards etc. There's a difference between 4 rounds against soft competition and people competing for playsets of blue duals and 3 byes.

[Esper3k]

So I've been considering Wipe Away again over Echoing Truth mainly because it deals with Karakas and doesn't get hit by Spell Snare (I love how this deck makes all the Spell Snares in the format a dead card).

Any thoughts? Sure Echoing Truth hits zombie tokens, but that seems to be like a rarer situation than the uncounterable benefit you get from Wipe Away?

[Water_Wizard]

I've considered the same. Wipe away is also nice because it blanks Mother of Runes. One concern with Wipe Away:

1) UU - Especially if you play to run Blood Moon and Wipeaway simultaneously, UU can be hard to come by.

Spell Snare is a moot point, because any smart pilot is taking that out games 2/3.

[Einherjer]

Why would you play Relic over Cage? Lemme list some pros/cons here:

Relic:
+ Can trim down graveyards by tapping
+ Can blow up the GY in response to bounce/destroy
- Costs 1 to play and 1 more to activate

Cage:
+ Trims all graveyards by simply being on the battlefield
+ Costs 1 to come in play and no more to activiate
- Can be bounced, before doing some GY-action

If you ask me, the Cage is superior, because of its effecitivness concerning the mana and it's effect on the graveyards. Reanimator + Dredge cannot do ANYTHING when Cage is on the battlefield, whereas for example, the Dredge-man might be dredging further if you have Relic and once you blow the Relic he might just use Memories Journey and youre kind of fucked. Cage is just superior to this one.

Considering the Blood Moon! It's a great card vs BUG and RUG decks, but lacks it's superior strength in the UW/GW MU. I would strongly advise you guys to do some testing with PithingNeedle before taking BloodMoon to a tournament for this MUs. I play 2 Blood Moon in the side but do not board them in against Terminator or Maverick, normally.

Greetings

[Jessenator]

It's probably too late to change up things tomorrow, I really like the pithing needle idea but I don't think I want to risk putting in something I haven't tested for tomorrow at the open.

Daze has been absolutely a wreckage against RUG Tempo, I really never regret putting them in at all. The REBs / Pyroblasts have been underperforming though. I often cannot fetch up a basic mountain to use it and have to fetch for a Volcanic Island, then gets Wasteland and would be behind. I think Flusterstorm would be a way better choice here. It's amazing in counter wars and especially against RUG / Combo / Control decks.

I think Blood Moon have to go in, I really dislike the card but baiting out a card vs RUG / other decks is just bonkers. And its an absolute blow-out vs other decks. This is one card I would board in vs Maverick though, as Karakas + Maze from a KOTR basically means good game.

Also, this may sound crazy, but I'm going to board out 2 Show and Tells vs Maverick and put in 2 Through the Breach. There has been too many times where I SnT and they show in a KOTR and basically blank me a turn. Through the Breach allows me to hit definitely with a fatty and gain advantage.

Leyline of Sanctity has been very god awful as well. I may even just take those out for more soft counters tomorrow. Echoing Truth is also a candidate that I may take out but the viaibility of that card is just too important in a vast format as Legacy, and it's a good card vs Dredge. Pyroclasm probably will be going out as well.

My sideboard consists of.. (considering)

3 Graffdigger's Cage
3 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
1 Misdirection (2 in main, 2 sided).

[Jessenator]

The real question is that should I be running 2 or 3 Intuitions. and cut a Grisel? I'm probably going to coinflip for that tomorrow.

[Water_Wizard]

Good questions, good questions. Please let us know how you do tomorrow...



I think Blood Moon have to go in, I really dislike the card but baiting out a card vs RUG / other decks is just bonkers. And its an absolute blow-out vs other decks.
This is one card I would board in vs Maverick though, as Karakas + Maze from a KOTR basically means good game.


I agree. I like what you've done with your sideboard. Cutting Leyline opens up room for Blood Moon.



Also, this may sound crazy, but I'm going to board out 2 Show and Tells vs Maverick and put in 2 Through the Breach. There has been too many times where I SnT and they show in a KOTR and basically blank me a turn. Through the Breach allows me to hit definitely with a fatty and gain advantage.


I don't think that's crazy at all and running TtB allows us to remove Show and Tell while keeping the threat density high.



Leyline of Sanctity has been very god awful as well. I may even just take those out for more soft counters tomorrow.


Good for you. I've been debating this decision and should probably just pull the trigger. Leyline is necessary for BUG and unless there is a major meta shift tomorrow, which I doubt there will be, the 4 Leyline slots can probably be used best elsewhere.

Perhaps it's just variance (and lack of sample size), but I haven't had too many Leyline hands I'm happy with. I either end up mulling to Leyline and keeping an otherwise junk hand or keeping a strong hand (without Leyline) and drawing 2 or 3 that I can't cast during the came (and just thinking "What if these where the useful cards (usually Dazes or Lotus Petals) I boarded out?").

Also, if you plan to run Flusterstorm over REB/Pyroblast (which it appears you do, below), you have additional answers to early discard/edicts. I think it's reasonable to replace 2 of the Leyline slots with Flusterstorms.



Pyroclasm probably will be going out as well.


Yes, yes. The word on the street is that this card is no good. Unless you expect Elves, Affinity, Soul Sisters, or some other 'swarm' type deck, Pyroclasm isn't necessary.



My sideboard consists of.. (considering)

3 Graffdigger's Cage
3 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
1 Misdirection (2 in main, 2 sided).

I take it Misdirection should be 2? (It only adds up to 14 otherwise).

Why not 4 Grafdigger's Cage? I think it makes sense to run 4 of anything you'll mull to.

I think the one strength of REB/Pyroblast is that it hits Delver (hence, it alleviates some of the decision not to run Pyroclasm vs. RUG).

When, oh when, do you plan to bring those Misdirections in? It seems like that might be a wasted/under-utilized/redundant slot.

I would go -2 Misdirection, +1 REB, +1 Grafdigger's Cage.


The real question is that should I be running 2 or 3 Intuitions. and cut a Grisel? I'm probably going to coinflip for that tomorrow.

I'm a fan of running more combo pieces, as that's what you need. Usually, you will use your Intuition to find a combo piece, and wouldn't you rather just run that combo piece and go off a turn earlier?

What's your sideboard strategy vs. the following decks?

RUG
Mirror
Combo
Burn
Maverick
UW
Any other decks you expect to see.

It's really important to work through this (if you haven't already) and this will help you answer you question about 2/3 Intuition (one benefit of a 3rd Intuition is that it opens up a sideboard spot most post-board matches).

With a 3rd Intuition and Daze, you may find yourself with much to board out each match. Additionally (especially if you plan to board in up to the full playset of Misdirections), be mindful of your blue count.

If you would post this, I would really appreciate it. I'm working through mine. My current sideboard is:
4 Grafdigger's
4 LoS
2 TtB
2 REB
2 Wipeaway (decided to run that since it hits Karakas and I'm not running Blood Moon)
1 Woodfall Primus (fits into the non-Blood Moon, non-Echoing Truth strategy. Doubles as a 9th monster. Persist is good with Sneak Attack. A lot of the control matches, once they have an Ensnaring Bridge on board, will let you resolve Sneak Attack / Show and Tell, because they save their counter magic to protect their Bridge.

Sneak Attack -> Woodfall Primus (blow up Ensnaring Bridge) -> eot Sneak Attack trigger, followed by persist trigger -> bye, bye Jace and I have a 5/5 monster in play.

If I cut Leyline, I'll probably go +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I won a local GPT for Gent:
Round 1: 2-0 BUG Control
Round 2: 2-1 GWb Maverick (Game 1: Show and Telled Griselbrand get raced by a Batterskull with an equipped by a BG Sword)
Round 3: 1-2 Dredge (Game 3 mulliganed to 3 for the lost)
Round 4: 2-0 Dredge
Round 5: Draw into Top 8
Quarterfinal: 2-1 Next Level RUG (Game 2 was in late game with light protection)
Semifinal: 2-0 BGW Stoneblade
Final: 2-0 GWU Knight
3 Byes, Gent, ich komme:tongue:

3 Blood Moon main shined in the developed meta. I will write more after another tournament today:smile:

[Waikiki]

Why would you play Relic over Cage? Lemme list some pros/cons here:

Relic:
+ Can trim down graveyards by tapping
+ Can blow up the GY in response to bounce/destroy
- Costs 1 to play and 1 more to activate

Cage:
+ Trims all graveyards by simply being on the battlefield
+ Costs 1 to come in play and no more to activiate
- Can be bounced, before doing some GY-action

If you ask me, the Cage is superior, because of its effecitivness concerning the mana and it's effect on the graveyards. Reanimator + Dredge cannot do ANYTHING when Cage is on the battlefield, whereas for example, the Dredge-man might be dredging further if you have Relic and once you blow the Relic he might just use Memories Journey and youre kind of fucked. Cage is just superior to this one.

Considering the Blood Moon! It's a great card vs BUG and RUG decks, but lacks it's superior strength in the UW/GW MU. I would strongly advise you guys to do some testing with PithingNeedle before taking BloodMoon to a tournament for this MUs. I play 2 Blood Moon in the side but do not board them in against Terminator or Maverick, normally.

Greetings

I think the fact that a dredge player gets all his goodies back when taking the cage out is a major downside which puts it into favor of relic, making him have to rebuild its grave.

[Suneloon]

Relic can also be used against Surgical Extraction. I don't know if this is viable irl, but is has been mentioned in here a couple of times.

[Esper3k]

Also, what I consider to be the biggest plus to Relic that wasn't mentioned is that it draws you a card when you blow it.

[Esper3k]

Also, I did some testing against Elf combo yesterday and good lord that matchup is rough. They're so aggro and fast that if we don't have a really fast start, we're usually dead. On top of that, they vomit out permanents so quickly that Emrakul's annihilator sometimes isn't enough and Griselbrand can't race the horde of 3/3+ dudes.

[rxavage]

Also, I did some testing against Elf combo yesterday and good lord that matchup is rough. They're so aggro and fast that if we don't have a really fast start, we're usually dead. On top of that, they vomit out permanents so quickly that Emrakul's annihilator sometimes isn't enough and Griselbrand can't race the horde of 3/3+ dudes.


LOL, I played horrible yesterday and I faced 1 control and 6 combo decks 3 of which were elves, I had never played against before, and all of them could hardcast their Emmy somehow every turn after I would drop mine. Played a forgemaster deck and got mind slavered twice and he just drew me cards with griselbrand. I had enough counters to beat to U/w control deck I played against but I misplayed bad. I won't be making the same mistakes next week. Daze I found practically useless. Echoing truth saved my as in 2 matches and pyroclasms are going back in the board.

[Jessenator]

Good questions, good questions. Please let us know how you do tomorrow...

If you would post this, I would really appreciate it. I'm working through mine. My current sideboard is:
4 Grafdigger's
4 LoS
2 TtB
2 REB
2 Wipeaway (decided to run that since it hits Karakas and I'm not running Blood Moon)
1 Woodfall Primus (fits into the non-Blood Moon, non-Echoing Truth strategy. Doubles as a 9th monster. Persist is good with Sneak Attack. A lot of the control matches, once they have an Ensnaring Bridge on board, will let you resolve Sneak Attack / Show and Tell, because they save their counter magic to protect their Bridge.

Sneak Attack -> Woodfall Primus (blow up Ensnaring Bridge) -> eot Sneak Attack trigger, followed by persist trigger -> bye, bye Jace and I have a 5/5 monster in play.

If I cut Leyline, I'll probably go +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique.

Sorry to dissappoint you guys, but I got pretty sick this morning and I couldn't make it to the convention center. I've been testing vs some good players and this deck runs extremely smooth w/ no problem (Daze version).

@ Water_Wizard: So about the Sideboard strategy

What's your sideboard strategy vs. the following decks?

My sideboard I settled on (was going to settle on).

4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth

RUG
play: -2 Intuition, -1 Ponder (actually like Preordain as a one of better), -1 Lotus Petal , +3 Blood Moon, +1 Red Elemental Blast.
draw: -1 Intuition, -3 Daze, +2 Red Blasts, +2 Flusterstorm. I don't like Blood Moon on the draw at all.

Mirror
play / draw the same thing. I still keep the Dazes in, the combination of that + Pierce / Flusterstorm is just amazing.
-4 Show and Tell, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Flusterstorm +1 Blasts +2 Through the Breach

Combo, your dazes probably would go out against most UB or Mono-Blue combo decks. In this game plan I want to go off as soon as possible to prevent them from going off. Since you take more than 1 turn to win but they only need 1. The Flusterstorms REALLY shine in this matchup, it's almost stupid.

-3 Daze, -1 Preordain, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Blasts

Burn
Pretty bad matchup for you, this is where Leyline would shine. But screw that card! The Dazes I like to put in on the play or draw, they want to jam in as much damage as possible. Most burn players wont' or shouldn't play around Daze. Misdirection here is pretty good for sure. FoWs are pretty bad, you want counters that doesn't mess w/ your attrition.

-2 Force of Will, +2 Flusterstorm.

Maverick, be careful of their Chokes, some Maverick players may side in. Cards to look out for are the 2nd Gaddock Teeg, and 2-3 Chokes. I sided out the Spell Pierce but please be careful.

play: -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Intuition, -2 Show and Tell, -2 Misdirection, +3 Blood Moon, +2 Through the Breach, +2 Echoing Truth,

draw: (I keep Spell Pierces in on the draw since the Dazes get sided out, I'm a little scared of Choke at times). -3 Daze, -2 Show and Tell, . -2 Misdirection, +2 Through the Breach, +2 Echoing Truth, +3 Blood Moon

UW(b), the miracle match up is just ridiculous. This is a hard one to win.

vs Blade Control (UW): if Esper, Blood Moons are in (less counter spells, more Moons). Dazes are generally bad here period. I like siding in stuff like Through the Breach. Sometime this matchup may be VERY long and you want more business cards to get your fatties on the field due to their strong discard / counter packages.

play: -3 Daze, -1 Ponder, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast +1 REB, +2 Through the Breach
draw: (I would side the same probably)

UW Miracle: -3 Daze, -2 Lotus Petal, -1 Ponder, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Flusterstorm +2 REB

These are approximation for each matchup, not 100% what I would do.

Cards to watch out for are Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and stuff like Meekstone.

[Water_Wizard]

Jessenator - Cool, cool. Thanks. It's amazing how (as you mention at the bottom of your article) there is flexibility in how we sideboard for this deck.

It's interesting against Burn, if you read their thread, they believe this match is unwinable for them.

I'm sorry you're not feeling well. I like your final sideboard.

Against RUG, I think it's always worth bringing in the max number of REB/Pyroblasts to kill a flipped Delver. Facing a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flip is one of the quickest ways to lose this match-up, so I think it's imperative to have max Delver hate present.

I would also bring in the 2nd Blast vs. the Mirror, probably trimming the Intutions and leaving in all Lotus Petals.

Against Maverick, if they go on the Teeg plan, I'm 2nd guessing boarding out the Show and Tells (since it's our only way under Teeg). Earlier in the forum, people advocate going "all-in" with Show and Tell (basically, show me a KotR or else). If we are S&Ting Griselbrand into play, we can still draw 7/14 and almost certainly set up a kill within the next 1-2 turns.

It'll be interesting to see the decklists that post today...

[The Colonel]

So we've been talking about grave hate against Reanimator and Dredge. I've gone back to an old reliable from when WotC first unbanned entomb and I've started running Faerie Macabre and I've gone back to that for Reanimator and I've loved it. Can't counter it, can't respond to it and IT'S FREE. So I've gone to that for Reanimator and it's worked perfectly. I don't like the cage because it just seems spotty at best and has none of the advantages against reanimator that the Faerie has. For Dredge I like Pyroclasm to take care of Zombie tokens. So anyways that's my 2 cents.

[bfeingersh]

Faerie Macabre is a real pain in the ass to play around from reanimator's perspective.

[bfeingersh]

LOL, I played horrible yesterday and I faced 1 control and 6 combo decks 3 of which were elves, I had never played against before, and all of them could hardcast their Emmy somehow every turn after I would drop mine. Played a forgemaster deck and got mind slavered twice and he just drew me cards with griselbrand. I had enough counters to beat to U/w control deck I played against but I misplayed bad. I won't be making the same mistakes next week. Daze I found practically useless. Echoing truth saved my as in 2 matches and pyroclasms are going back in the board.

I played against

Hulk Rebirth/NO (2-1)
Aggro Loam (2-0)
Bant Maverick (1-2) (Krondo9, made top 8)
Aggro Loam (2-0)
UW Miracles (1-2)
UG Elves (2-1)
Bant (1-2)

My main was posted a couple pages back with the following sideboard:

3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Through the Breach
3 Blood Moon
2 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Sucks to lose to 2 guys who were in our car and play against a 3rd (Maverick, Miracles, Elves) but shit happens.

[Koby]

I also played this deck at a Legacy side event at GP Anaheim, and a GPT on this last Saturday....

Legacy side event:
Dredge (2-0)
Bant (0-2)
Lands (2-0)
Sneak Show (2-0)
Elves (2-0)
UW Terminator (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)

Then again, GPT yesterday:
Dredge (2-0)
Elves (2-0)
RUG Delver (2-0)
ID for 2 rounds
Top 8 - UW Cartel (2-0)... notice a theme?
Top 4 - Maverick (2-1)
Top 2 - Chopped the byes and Mox favorably, and I got the 3 byes to Atlanta. :D

List from Saturday:

4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
7 fetches
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon

So a grand total of 5 games lost over 14 rounds... Deck is fair.

[Atog]

I also played this deck at a Legacy side event at GP Anaheim, and a GPT on this last Saturday....

Legacy side event:
Dredge (2-0)
Bant (0-2)
Lands (2-0)
Sneak Show (2-0)
Elves (2-0)
UW Terminator (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)

Then again, GPT yesterday:
Dredge (2-0)
Elves (2-0)
RUG Delver (2-0)
ID for 2 rounds
Top 8 - UW Cartel (2-0)... notice a theme?
Top 4 - Maverick (2-1)
Top 2 - Chopped the byes and Mox favorably, and I got the 3 byes to Atlanta. :D

List from Saturday:

4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
7 fetches
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon

So a grand total of 5 games lost over 14 rounds... Deck is fair.

Congrats for byes! :) How were Cages working for you? It could be if you can counter their nature's claims and/or Chain of Vapor targeting Cage, you will be doing fine, since they arent. Were Pyroclasm enought vs. elves, rug and maveric? Or did you even side them in against rug, since there are lots of cards you could bring in against them.

[Koby]

Congrats for byes! :) How were Cages working for you? It could be if you can counter their nature's claims and/or Chain of Vapor targeting Cage, you will be doing fine, since they arent. Were Pyroclasm enought vs. elves, rug and maveric? Or did you even side them in against rug, since there are lots of cards you could bring in against them.

Cages are doing exactly what I need them to do: prevent losing in the first 1-3 turns while I assemble fatties into play. Pyroclasm is against Maverick, Elves, and rarely used against RUG - Pyroblast is just better here. You can ignore their creatures and bait out their soft counters. We playtested some matchups and if they counter all your spells, you're probably not winning (cantrips included). RUG might be a tough matchup due to this. Flusterstorm could improve that scenario.

Pyroclasm is just better than Firespout because the goal isn't to kill Mongoose/Knight/Goyf. It's to kill hate-bears and destroy Elves.

I very rarely go balls-deep with Show & Tell. I prefer to put down Sneak Attack from S&T often, because it ends up being faster (attack right now) and safer (no interaction). Sometimes, Sneak'ing Emrakul off the S&T/SA setup is more than enough to effectively win, even if you need to dig for another finisher later.

[Atog]

Cages are doing exactly what I need them to do: prevent losing in the first 1-3 turns while I assemble fatties into play. Pyroclasm is against Maverick, Elves, and rarely used against RUG - Pyroblast is just better here. You can ignore their creatures and bait out their soft counters. We playtested some matchups and if they counter all your spells, you're probably not winning (cantrips included). RUG might be a tough matchup due to this. Flusterstorm could improve that scenario.

Pyroclasm is just better than Firespout because the goal isn't to kill Mongoose/Knight/Goyf. It's to kill hate-bears and destroy Elves.

I very rarely go balls-deep with Show & Tell. I prefer to put down Sneak Attack from S&T often, because it ends up being faster (attack right now) and safer (no interaction). Sometimes, Sneak'ing Emrakul off the S&T/SA setup is more than enough to effectively win, even if you need to dig for another finisher later.

So Cages are there just for buying some time, not being permanent answer.

So you side in 6 cards vs. RUG (3 blood moon & 3 pyroblast?), what do you take out? Intuitions, Misdirection and cantrip?

Were elves matchups close, since that should't be good matchup because they are usually just faster than us? Sideboard gives you two cards but that isn't that much if they won't show early enought or you don't get fast starts. So is that key in that match, mulligan aggressive to fast SaT or Sneak?

[Deez_Naughts]

So we've been talking about grave hate against Reanimator and Dredge. I've gone back to an old reliable from when WotC first unbanned entomb and I've started running Faerie Macabre and I've gone back to that for Reanimator and I've loved it. Can't counter it, can't respond to it and IT'S FREE. So I've gone to that for Reanimator and it's worked perfectly. I don't like the cage because it just seems spotty at best and has none of the advantages against reanimator that the Faerie has. For Dredge I like Pyroclasm to take care of Zombie tokens. So anyways that's my 2 cents.

Cage is "spotty"? Cage locks them out of their game plan, cold.

Faerie Macabre simply nerfs one re-animation spell.

This is substantially less usefull in this match up, and across the board.

[Einherjer]

Okay guys,

there's always a point where a journey ends. My SneakAttack journey with all of you ends now. I sold all my Show and Tell-Stuff. All Enabelers, alls Creatures, all Enchantments, all Pacts. This is due to the B/R-Update in a few weeks. Even though I strongly believe that Show and Tell is not banworthy, I cannot say for sure what WotC does. I sent them the results of this poll in this forum with 25-75 for banning Show and Tell. I hope this helps to keep Show and Tell legal. I, for my part, cannot risk to lose 400€ at once. I wish all of you all the best, and keep putting up good results! Thanks for all the good discussions and conversations we had. May the force be with you.

Greetings

[wizard_of_gore]

Okay guys,

there's always a point where a journey ends. My SneakAttack journey with all of you ends now. I sold all my Show and Tell-Stuff. All Enabelers, alls Creatures, all Enchantments, all Pacts. This is due to the B/R-Update in a few weeks. Even though I strongly believe that Show and Tell is not banworthy, I cannot say for sure what WotC does. I sent them the results of this poll in this forum with 25-75 for banning Show and Tell. I hope this helps to keep Show and Tell legal. I, for my part, cannot risk to lose 400€ at once. I wish all of you all the best, and keep putting up good results! Thanks for all the good discussions and conversations we had. May the force be with you.

Greetings

Oh man, i'm feel sorry! But there is something new, and even cheaper than sneak show. Look :
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46648

Deck can operate fine even without show and tell, because there are 8 other show and tells in deck :cool::cool::cool:. In case of baning S&T, intuition can be solid replacement, and you can play clique, leylines, krosan grip, blood moon, firespouts, trinispheres etc in sideboard.

[Einherjer]

Haha thank you :P but expenses are not the measures I choose a Legacy-deck by. Ill play the decks listed down there in my sig, but it was the unsureness about SnT getting banned or not, that forced me to make that switch..

Greetings

[JPA]

I don't get it... :eyebrow: Why sell everything based on an assumption that has a very low probability of actually happening??

If you are 25:75 sure they don't ban it, why sell all of it right now? Did you need the money instantly?

[DrHealex]

Well selling it off right now and then picking them up after the banning annoucement simply gives him an inconvenience picking them back up if they don't get banned (since its doubtful the price will go any higher between then). I for one have faith in Wizards not banning anything that isn't a problem.

[Esper3k]

Oh man, i'm feel sorry! But there is something new, and even cheaper than sneak show. Look :
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46648

Deck can operate fine even without show and tell, because there are 8 other show and tells in deck :cool::cool::cool:. In case of baning S&T, intuition can be solid replacement, and you can play clique, leylines, krosan grip, blood moon, firespouts, trinispheres etc in sideboard.

What's funny is that I have almost all of Hypergenesis foiled out from when I tried playing the deck briefly last year.

Sadly, I think Hypergenesis is much easier to hate out than Sneaky Show. Stifle, Ethersworn Canonist, Trinisphere, Chalice @ 0, and a shaky manabase (plenty of Wasteland targets) make it fairly easy to disrupt.

[Einherjer]

I don't get it... :eyebrow: Why sell everything based on an assumption that has a very low probability of actually happening??

If you are 25:75 sure they don't ban it, why sell all of it right now? Did you need the money instantly?

It had 2 reasons:
1) Even though I think it doesn't deserve banning I wasn't sure about what WotC would do..
2) On the other hand, playing with this deck felt great, because you won most of your games. But, everytime you won, you were feeling like..great deck...great list...well build sideboard..but hey? My whole possible playskill didn't interact with the game at all? Making no mistakes was everything that could push your strength with this deck. You know what I mean? When you compare this to playing tempo or control, playing tempo and control just adds another level of complexity to the game, which results in a better gaming-experience.

No I didn't need the money instantly - what I did with this money is buying the last duals to finish of my "collection" of having each blue dual land 3 times. But that doesn't belong in this thread^^

But that's just my opinion. Keep on playing this strong deck and enjoy winning.

Greetings

[whienot]

As mentioned in another thread, legacy has such a critical mass of cheatafattyintoplay enablers, that banning Show & Tell won't stop Griselbrand from eating the format. Jumping the wagon may be a bit premature. Survival took a good 6 months of shenanigans before it finally received the ban.

In other news, I won a GPT with Sneak Attack on Saturday. Nothing exciting to say about the maindeck. Sideboard:

4x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Blood Moon
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth

TES (2-0)
Belcher (0-2) - On the draw, mulled to 3 and 4. No FoW, Belched both games.
Burn (2-0)
Combo Elves (2-1)
UW Stoneblade (2-1)
Affinity (2-0)
Griselbargain / Count Chocula (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23888-Brainstorming-Griselbargain) 2-0

[csy]

Okay guys,

there's always a point where a journey ends. My SneakAttack journey with all of you ends now. I sold all my Show and Tell-Stuff. All Enabelers, alls Creatures, all Enchantments, all Pacts. This is due to the B/R-Update in a few weeks. Even though I strongly believe that Show and Tell is not banworthy, I cannot say for sure what WotC does. I sent them the results of this poll in this forum with 25-75 for banning Show and Tell. I hope this helps to keep Show and Tell legal. I, for my part, cannot risk to lose 400€ at once. I wish all of you all the best, and keep putting up good results! Thanks for all the good discussions and conversations we had. May the force be with you.

Greetings


1/10

Enjoy your new deck. Stop feeling guilty for winning.

[Esper3k]

I was thinking about this a little more this morning - if Hypergenesis starts to get more popular, Trinisphere and Flusterstorm (answers we can play fairly easily) sound like they would be awesome sideboard cards for us.

[Koby]

I was thinking about this a little more this morning - if Hypergenesis starts to get more popular, Trinisphere and Flusterstorm (answers we can play fairly easily) sound like they would be awesome sideboard cards for us.

Mana Maze. Boom. nice :g: Cascade spells. Also, I cast Show & Tell, you can't cast Blue spells?

Did I just break open the format?

[Esper3k]

Mana Maze. Boom. nice :g: Cascade spells. Also, I cast Show & Tell, you can't cast Blue spells?

Did I just break open the format?

Rofl that's awesome! We just can't bring it in against red decks running REB, hah.

Conversely though, they cast Show & Tell and we can't really stop it without Pyroblast/REB either.

I'd also think in this matchup, we want to board out Show & Tell since they run more dudes than we do and just go for the Sneak Attack / Through the Breach plan?

Also to note - for all the complaining we're getting here about this deck, it only got 1 in the T16 (granted it T8'd) compared to Maverick and RUG still putting up more numbers.

Hell, Belcher put up more numbers that tournament than we did...

[rxavage]

Mana Maze. Boom. nice :g: Cascade spells. Also, I cast Show & Tell, you can't cast Blue spells?

Did I just break open the format?


I thought about mana maze after a friend dropped one on me but dismissed it, maybe I didn't really give it a chance.

[Koby]

Rofl that's awesome! We just can't bring it in against red decks running REB, hah.


Mana Maze only cares about the last spell cast, not all spells. Blue spell -> REB opens up the possibility to use FOW to counter REB.

[csy]

Mana Maze only cares about the last spell cast, not all spells. Blue spell -> REB opens up the possibility to use FOW to counter REB.

mana maze... wow thats dirty. I love it.

[Esper3k]

Mana Maze only cares about the last spell cast, not all spells. Blue spell -> REB opens up the possibility to use FOW to counter REB.

Hah totally didn't see that. Nice!

[menace13]

Mana Maze was old extended tech for Reanimator decks against Mind's Desire. Oh deckcheck how I miss you...

[Jim Higginbottom]

its also tech from 43 lands to beat elf combo and is passable against ub ant.

[jrw1985]

So has anyone put together the Hive Mind transformational sideboard yet?

[metamet]

Ryan wrote an article about Hypergenesis vs. Sneak Attack/Sneak and Show: Show Me Something New: Why Hypergenesis Isn’t Worth Writing Home About (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2012/06/show-me-something-new-why-hypergenesis-isnt-worth-writing-home-about/).

[HokusSchmokus]

Cage is "spotty"? Cage locks them out of their game plan, cold.

Faerie Macabre simply nerfs one re-animation spell.

This is substantially less usefull in this match up, and across the board.

It's from a page back, but from the Dredge players perspective, Cage is spotty indeed. If your goal is to delay the opposing deck cage can work out fine, but as a hoser it's absolutely shit.
Cage prevents Dredge from 2-3 things, depending on list, namely Dread Return(if you run any), Flashback Cabal Therapy and putting Narcomoebas/Ichrorids into play. The problem is that as a Dredge player, you mull until you are sure you can beat Cage+1 Counter or so, then flip your deck, kill the cage, kill them. Also you can still get Zombies with Cage in play.

[bfeingersh]

How do you get zombies if you're not flashing back therapy/dread return or putting ichorids into play?

(I understand they come from the stack, not the GY, I just don't know what situations you're being put in to make them)

[HokusSchmokus]

Putrid Imp only costs 1 mana, Thug and Moeba 2. Your deck provides the sac outlet. I know it's not likely enough, but still, it can work. That's why Cage is so bad imo. It doesn't affect my ability to dredge/I can still have Zombies.
But as I said, I was talking about Cage being a hoser. It still delays the Dredge player.

[MGB]

How does Dredge remove Cage against a deck packing counters? How does Dredge hope to win when it can't reliably remove Cage? Once Cage lands, they need to hope they draw into a Nature's Claim or something similar, and typically, by drawing one card a turn, their chances of drawing multiple Claims are very thin, so if you can Spell Pierce or Force their singleton Claim, you have locked them out of the game until you can win with your own game plan. And if they mulligan into a Claim hand, and you counter it, they're in the same predicament and don't want to dredge until they draw another Claim.

I've literally never lost a game against a Dredge player when I landed Cage with at least one counter backup.

In my opinion, Cage is the 2nd best Dredge hoser in the game behind Leyline.

[Koby]

You can get Zombies with Cage in play, but how are you sacrificing creatures without flashback being active?

[HokusSchmokus]

MGB: the play is to wait and just dredge a ton, and wait for a window of opportunity. If you have Therapy, you can check for counters, try to catch them with like 3 cards in hand tapped out/response to fetch or something. Its managable. Cage isn't a hoser bc it doesn't prevent everything relevant a Dredge deck does(i.e. Dredging)
Koby: sorry I phrased it kinda vague. What I meant is as long as I can put 2-3 creatures into play, Sneak Attack into Emrakul is my sac outlet. Obv Griselbrand + Emmy is too much. But I won quite a number of games by just being attacked with an Emrakul. It's still a corner case though.

[Koby]

At the point where Emrakul becomes the sacrifice outlet, it might be too late to really matter. With Cage in play, Griselbrand is usually the better choice (given an option, well duh of course its the better option, drawing 14 cards vs no pressure... I digress).

If we have all the time in the world against opponent that we have forced to durdle (Blood Moon, Cage, counter decks), then it's entirely within the possibility just to setup Sneak Attack plans. That's the safest and quickest method to ending games once we resolve our enabler.

It's possible that with Cage out we still lose to Zombie tokens. But that would be hard to walk into considering it involves 100% public information.

[MGB]

MGB: the play is to wait and just dredge a ton, and wait for a window of opportunity. If you have Therapy, you can check for counters, try to catch them with like 3 cards in hand tapped out/response to fetch or something. Its managable. Cage isn't a hoser bc it doesn't prevent everything relevant a Dredge deck does(i.e. Dredging)


Dredging is pointless if you can't eventually remove Cage. You can't cast anything from the graveyard, so dredging into stuff like Ancient Grudge is pointless. The only thing the dredge player can do is to actually draw cards intead of dredging and hope to land a Nature's Claim or similar hate spell. And if the Dredge player is drawing cards one per turn and hoping for a topdeck, then he has already lost against most decks.

And while you are waiting for a "window of opportunity" (I assume you meant if you have a hate card like Claim already in your hand) your opponent is also building counterspells in his hand and probably casting his game-winning spell pretty soon.

Competent players who run both counters and cage will practically never lose to Dredge if they have one of each in their hand.

[Que]

You guys forget this is HokusSchmokus were talking about. Hes never lost a competitve Match of Magic with Dredge to Leyline of the Void!!

I'm sure a measly cage wont deter him.

[menace13]

You can get Zombies with Cage in play, but how are you sacrificing creatures without flashback being active?

Hardcasting Ichorids, clearly

[emidln]

Hardcasting Ichorids, clearly

Golgari Thug into other castable creatures combined with combat.

[Michael Keller]

Competent players who run both counters and cage will practically never lose to Dredge if they have one of each in their hand.

Competent Dredge players who understand how to mulligan properly and sideboard correctly do not lose to bad cards like Cage or conditional counter-magic.

[Koby]

Competent <deck> players who understand how to <do something> properly and <do something else> correctly do not lose to bad <noun> like <card> or conditional <answers>.

Amidoingitright?

[Tinefol]

Yep, them's, the Golgari Thug and Narcomoeba beats, eat that, bad cards and bad counters.

[Michael Keller]

Amidoingitright?

Sure are!

[HokusSchmokus]

If I'm getting ridiculed anyway there's no point in posting any further than what I already said: Cage is good as slow-down,bad as hoser. That's all.

[Esper3k]

If I'm getting ridiculed anyway there's no point in posting any further than what I already said: Cage is good as slow-down,bad as hoser. That's all.

That's fair. Pretty much all we're looking for though is something to slow Dredge down long enough for us to get a fatty down.

[rxavage]

If I'm getting ridiculed anyway there's no point in posting any further than what I already said: Cage is good as slow-down,bad as hoser. That's all.


Would you rather face a cage or relic?

[MGB]

Competent Dredge players who understand how to mulligan properly and sideboard correctly do not lose to bad cards like Cage or conditional counter-magic.

Based on this chain of logic, I suppose that the only reason that dredge hasn't completely taken over the Legacy metagame is due to a lack of competent pilots? It has always had an edge in practically every matchup in game 1. If hate such as Cage and Leyline are so ineffective against competent dredge players, what's stopping the deck from steamrolling through every Legacy tournament?

[bfeingersh]

Who will I be seeing this weekend in beautiful Worcester Mass? I'm not sneaking or showing but I'll be around, maybe tomorrow but definitely sunday.

[Norm]

Who will I be seeing this weekend in beautiful Worcester Mass? I'm not sneaking or showing but I'll be around, maybe tomorrow but definitely sunday.

I'll be there, likely casting Show and Tells

[Calado]

Based on this chain of logic, I suppose that the only reason that dredge hasn't completely taken over the Legacy metagame is due to a lack of competent pilots? It has always had an edge in practically every matchup in game 1. If hate such as Cage and Leyline are so ineffective against competent dredge players, what's stopping the deck from steamrolling through every Legacy tournament?
Nice discussion here. I'll add something here. Neither decks is an autowin against eachother.
First, dredge really is lacking of pilots (not only competent, but we can see in the lists that are so many Canadian, Stoneblade and Maverick pilots, but few Dredge players). A deck hard to pilot and with a lot of hate cards in the format isn't that attractive to run with.

Second, Cage really won't win you games by itself. Cage+fast Sneak Attack can do this, of course. Cage and Leyline aren't ineffective. But in that discussion, it comes down to who has a more powerful hand and play smartly. The dredge player can still win through one cage+counter if it makes you discard your combo pieces. The opposite is true if you have a strong hand and he has nothing. Mulliganing into Cage/Leyline can seal the fate by giving you a poor hand (the same for mulliganing into Nature's Claim mindlessly). That's the point.

Third, when a deck really starts steamrolling every tournament, people start siding more against it (happened recently when Burn won 2 in a row, wich allowed Adam Prosak win the next Tournament without anti-hate sideboard). The same would happen if dredge couldn't win through hate, we would have to side in hate cards against Sneak Show (which isn't usual).

[S1N1STER]

Made top 4 at a local GPT today and picked up a tropical and a tundra. Almost didn't run blood moons in my sideboard, but ended up putting them back in last minute. There were a few maverick decks which might not have gone my way without those bloodmoons.

[KobeBryan]

Made top 4 at a local GPT today and picked up a tropical and a tundra. Almost didn't run blood moons in my sideboard, but ended up putting them back in last minute. There were a few maverick decks which might not have gone my way without those bloodmoons.

Bloodmoon, man

I really hate dedicating so much sideboard cards to fight you guys.

[rxavage]

Blood moon has been awesome for me. I wouldn't replace it in this deck.

[Michael Keller]

Based on this chain of logic, I suppose that the only reason that dredge hasn't completely taken over the Legacy metagame is due to a lack of competent pilots? It has always had an edge in practically every matchup in game 1.

Dredge is a deck that does have a very high game one win percentage. Even in the hands of a lesser pilot, it can still find ways to be just dumb and win games it outright has no business winning, in addition to finding outlets based on opponent's' incompetence or ignorance of how to play against it appropriately.

So in some bizarre, twisted fashion - yes, you are (kind of) correct: Dredge has the ability to dominate Legacy from a universal playability standpoint. (Or at least in an unprepared meta.)


If hate such as Cage and Leyline are so ineffective against competent dredge players, what's stopping the deck from steamrolling through every Legacy tournament?

Cage and Leyline have their moments, but it really depends on how the Dredge player is able to work through the motions of sideboarding and mulliganing when necessary game two and three. What kills Dredge players is essentially the aforementioned; it is far too difficult to simply toss the deck together "As Seen On TV" and expect to do well with it.

If I'm running against the Sneak player and he or she mulligans to five with a weak hand and Leyline to start, chances are their hand has been desaturated or completely stripped of anything relevant other than the said hate. In that instance, I can keep even a relatively decent hand with some anti-hate or potentially some filters spells to find answers to it.

Building a good sideboard is something most players do not take advantage of properly, and I find myself sometimes being guilty as well. However, I take the time to test the hell out of it to make sure it's optimal - or at least as optimal as can be hoped for. Leyline and Cage are just cards that buy time against skilled Dredge players. Crypt, Relic, etc. off the top (including sandbagged or well-timed activations) work much better under most circumstances because they are definitive solutions that don't necessitate retarding your opening hand - without the ability to cast it if you don't have it.

You can reliably take a good mulligan as the Sneak player and just cantrip into a Crypt and protect it in hand. Cage is just a card that has to get thrown out as soon as possible and is relatively innocuous as a definitive and crushing answer. But with a good seven or solid six, it is still hard to beat.

Which is why Dredge cannot and will not ever dominate the format. It sometimes gets kicked in the pants and can't do anything about it.

[Koby]

Hurdadurped into more winnings tonight with the last list i posted a few pages back. I did some testing against RUG delver and it's much easier to play against than a good Maverick list/pilot.

Today's record: 5-0-2 matches (split in finals) 10-1-6 in games (ID is three draws)
Overall record: 15-2-4 matches, 31-6-12 games

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Esper3k]

Did some testing today as well against RUG and Reanimator.

Reanimator G1 can be tough since they have both discard and countermagic as well as a slightly faster combo than we do. However, I'm confident that post board it gets a lot better for us and they'll get hit by the increased Dredge hate in the meta.

I am also much more confident playing against RUG than I am against Maverick, especially Game 1. Resolving a Show & Tell or Sneak Attack is usually game and we can usually afford to wait a little bit to play around Daze and even Spell Pierce.

[JustPAT4]

Sneak Show put 3 in the Top 8 of Jupiter Games Annual NELC Legacy Invitational:
http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51293/2012-nelc-invitational-top-8-decklists

[Justin]

Did some testing today as well against RUG and Reanimator.

Reanimator G1 can be tough since they have both discard and countermagic as well as a slightly faster combo than we do. However, I'm confident that post board it gets a lot better for us and they'll get hit by the increased Dredge hate in the meta.

I am also much more confident playing against RUG than I am against Maverick, especially Game 1. Resolving a Show & Tell or Sneak Attack is usually game and we can usually afford to wait a little bit to play around Daze and even Spell Pierce.

Reanimator is a bad matchup, and game 1 is pretty grim. They can land fatties of S&T. If they get a Blazing Archon on the board, it's gg against any Sneaky Tell deck that can't bounce it or kill it. They also run Angel of Dispair and mulptipe Griselbrand. If you have a choice, you should definately try to win with Sneak Attack against them rather than Show and Tell. In games 2-3, you can board in graveyard hate, and which can buy you more time to search for your Sneak Attack.

[bfeingersh]

Lent cards to Darwin and played my silly brew, and he goes and top 4s. Should've played Sneaks today :(

[Water_Wizard]

JustPAT4 - thanks for posting the Jupiter Games link.

A few topics of discussion, in the link PAT posted above, all 2 of the lists had the following in the sideboard:
4 Progenitus
2 Submerge
No Blood Moon
No Leyline of Sanctity

It looks like the 1st and 3rd place finishers built their decks together. Other than a small maindeck difference (+1/-1 Intuition/Misdirection) their decks and sideboards are the same.

Progenitus is an interesting choice. I imagine it is mainly for the Maverick match up. Thoughts?

Submerge is also interesting, although something discussed a few pages back. I imagine it is for the Maverick/RUG match up (or any other deck that runs Forests and plays creatures).

What's everyone think of these decks' sideboards? For discussion purposes, they are:
4 Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Through the Breach
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique

From the looks of it, they expected a lot of mirror and maverick. I would imagine the plan vs. maverick is something like
-3 Daze
-1 Misdirection
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 FOW/Griselbrand
+1 Wipeaway
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Submerge
+4 Progenitus

Submerge is also solid vs. Thalia and Pridemage. The inclusion of Progenitus allows us to Show and Tell vs. Maverick with impunity. Is it worth the 4 slots?

[JPA]

I don't really like these sideboards. I can understand to cut Blood Moon, did the same now, but not playing red blasts and Leylines is a pretty huge drawback imo.

Progenitus can be raced pretty handily by Maverick if it hits the battlefield after Turn 3. Griselbrand will have a much bigger impact, even if he gets bounced he will get us the combo pieces to Sneak for the win.

I have found Jonathan Hickerson's Nashville-winning list to be the currently perfect one. Darwin played the EXACT same 75 btw. :wink:
(for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46501)

[catmint]

I am currently up to 10 cantrips, 2 Intuition. I think lands and cantrips are the most important elements of a good starting hand. Making sure you do not draw multiple creatures is key. I can even imagine going down to 7 creatures and 11 cantrips.

[Norm]

I just went 7-2 placing 19th out of 305 in SCG: Worcester. I may write a tournament report but the most interesting game by far was a later round against Hive Mind (his name was Norman too!) where he hard cast Hive Mind, then Show and Tell placing another Hive Mind into play, Pact of the Titan, Pact of Negation...I won that game. :laugh:

[Esper3k]

I just went 7-2 placing 19th out of 305 in SCG: Worcester. I may write a tournament report but the most interesting game by far was a later round against Hive Mind (his name was Norman too!) where he hard cast Hive Mind, then Show and Tell placing another Hive Mind into play, Pact of the Titan, Pact of Negation...I won that game. :laugh:

How'd you pull that off? :)

[Vandalize]

How'd you pull that off? :)

He probably used Chaos Orb and destroyed his foe's board, and then casted his shiny Dragonite. I don't see any other ways.

[DrHealex]

How'd you pull that off? :)

While 2 fatties off the double show and tell probably allowed him to win next turn. 1 flusterstorm would have been all it would take to not die next turn.

[Norm]

I feel like I should save it for the tournament report, it was rather intricate. :cool:

Additionally, I did not run/cast Flusterstorm

[Water_Wizard]

I don't really like these sideboards. I can understand to cut Blood Moon, did the same now, but not playing red blasts and Leylines is a pretty huge drawback imo.

Progenitus can be raced pretty handily by Maverick if it hits the battlefield after Turn 3. Griselbrand will have a much bigger impact, even if he gets bounced he will get us the combo pieces to Sneak for the win.

I have found Jonathan Hickerson's Nashville-winning list to be the currently perfect one. Darwin played the EXACT same 75 btw. :wink:
(for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46501)

But the deck that Top 8'ed ran the Progenitus sideboard: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46817

Could you expand a little bit more upon "I don't really like those sideboards."

I don't think Maverick can race a turn 3 Progen, especially with their equipment coming out. Unless they have a very ideal hand and plow one of their own creatures, I like my chances with a turn 3 Progenitus.

[catmint]

I also thought about Progenitus as tech vs. Maverick.

Decided against it because:

1) Progenitus is still aweful with sneak attack and show & tell (without hate) is still aweful with Emrakul. If you side out Emrakul instead of Griselbrand, Sneak Attack gets even worse.

2) Pithing Needle is awesome hate vs. Maverick and has also applications against other decks which run: liliana, SD.top, Jace and other random stuff like belcher, grindstone,...

[sdematt]

No love for Crater Hellion?

-Matt

[menace13]

I just went 7-2 placing 19th out of 305 in SCG: Worcester. I may write a tournament report but the most interesting game by far was a later round against Hive Mind (his name was Norman too!) where he hard cast Hive Mind, then Show and Tell placing another Hive Mind into play, Pact of the Titan, Pact of Negation...I won that game. :laugh:

At that point you would need 6 mana and 2 Pierce or 2 Daze and 2 mana/2 Islands. Or untapped with uu3+4r and won.

[rxavage]

I think both leylines are terrible for this deck. We saw how well LotV worked out against reanimator. Kastle ran that exact 75 because he'd never played the deck before, borrowed it and quite honestly has no clue about legacy, granted his playskill earned him mtg Hall of Fame.

[rxavage]

2) Pithing Needle is awesome hate vs. Maverick and has also applications against other decks which run: liliana, SD.top, Jace and other random stuff like belcher, grindstone,...

How is pithing needle awesome vs Mav? Those 3 tutorable md Pridemage say otherwise.

[Norm]

At that point you would need 6 mana and 2 Pierce or 2 Daze and 2 mana/2 Islands. Or untapped with uu3+4r and won.

You're close, I'll explain because I don't feel as though I'll have the time to write a tournament report:


The game has been going long, I sided in Through the Breachx2 and Red Elemental Blastx3, while siding my Show and Tells out, along with one Preordain. He has a Pithing Needle naming Sneak Attack and I've been developing mana to either pay for pacts or hard cast Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. I'm at 14 or 15 and he's at 13.

After discarding many times, he feels comfortable going for it. He hard-casts Hive Mind, I Intuition in response, it resolves. I grab three Red Elemental Blast, then allow his Hive Mind to resolve.

He then casts Show and Tell
*trigger*
We both put cards down, I reveal Emrakul, The Aeons Torn and he reveals Hive Mind number two.
Pact of the Titan
*Trigger* *Trigger* - Retain priority Pact of Negation targeting his Pact of the Titan *Trigger* *Trigger*
I Red Elemental Blast my own Pact of Negation *Trigger* *Trigger*
He aims both copies at his Pact of Negation
I then Spell Pierce my Pact of The Titan#1 *Trigger* *Trigger*
He aims both copies back at my original, I pay
He then Flusterstorms my Spell Pierce with every copy and makes it quite clear that I don't receive storm (I know this)
I take my two Flusterstorms and aim them at my own Pact of the Titans leaving just a Pact of Negation on my side to pay for (I've got access to 12 mana)
He then moves back to his Show and Tell that's been hanging out on the stack, I tell him it resolves and we both place cards face down:

He reveals Griselbrand, but I reveal Griselbrand as well :eek: No seven cards into machine gun death for me today, sir!

He's forced to pass the turn, I pay on my upkeep then destroy him with Spaghetti Monster :cool:

In hindsight, playing Griselbrand first would likely have been correct. But I live on the dangerous side :)

[menace13]

You're close, I'll explain because I don't feel as though I'll have the time to write a tournament report:

"Sick shit"
:)
That wasnt even close to how i imagined it lol!

[bfeingersh]

Played the following sideboard (standard main w/ 2 Intuition 2 Preordain, 8 counters) at our local weekly last night and was very happy with it:

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Through the Breach
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Submerge

[rxavage]

Played the following sideboard (standard main w/ 2 Intuition 2 Preordain, 8 counters) at our local weekly last night and was very happy with it:

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Through the Breach
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Submerge

Thats Almost the same sb 15 I've been running except -1 REB, -2 Submerge, -1 Wipe Away for +3 Blood Moon and +1 Relic. I run a singleton Wipe Away Main. The only thing I changed from a few weeks ago was adding the Cliques. I think 4 pieces of gy-hate is the minimum with Dredge and the fact that our Reanimator match-up sucks, which I can attest to,
and will become more of a presence again. Good thing I'm able to audible and run Reanimator when people start slacking on grave-hate like they have been.

[Dresden]

Erm :) I think it's a bit premature, SnT has won...a couple tourneys? It's not anywhere close to where RUG was/is in its heyday, nor maverick. I'll hold on to all my snt's at this point, best of luck philipp, hope you come back!


Okay guys,

there's always a point where a journey ends. My SneakAttack journey with all of you ends now. I sold all my Show and Tell-Stuff. All Enabelers, alls Creatures, all Enchantments, all Pacts. This is due to the B/R-Update in a few weeks. Even though I strongly believe that Show and Tell is not banworthy, I cannot say for sure what WotC does. I sent them the results of this poll in this forum with 25-75 for banning Show and Tell. I hope this helps to keep Show and Tell legal. I, for my part, cannot risk to lose 400€ at once. I wish all of you all the best, and keep putting up good results! Thanks for all the good discussions and conversations we had. May the force be with you.

Greetings

[Water_Wizard]

@ Norm - so, it's a massive mistake for him to play Flusterstorm, as it allows you to counter both of your copies of Pact of the Titan (before he played it, you had 1 copy of PotT and 1 copy of PoN to pay on your upkeep). However, probably didn't matter as you had enough mana to pay for one or both copies and a spaghetti monster in play.

Did you talk to him at all after the match and get his reaction?

[Norm]

@ Norm - so, it's a massive mistake for him to play Flusterstorm, as it allows you to counter both of you copies of Pact of the Titan (before he played it, you had 1 copy of PotT and 1 copy of PoN to pay on your upkeep). However, probably didn't matter as you had enough mana to pay for one or both copies and a spaghetti monster in play.

Did you talk to him at all after the match and get his reaction?

You're right, and I did have the mana to pay for both on my upkeep. I took a few minutes to talk about it with him after the game, he was a little upset but these things happen. Overall, he was a nice guy and a fun opponent to have at the table. He did, however, have purple hair :eyebrow:

[feline]

This and Maverick are the 2 next decks I'm going to focus on obtaining, time to trade like crazy, again! though at least with this deck I only need about half of it, volcanic island / griselbrand / emrakul / misdirection / sneak attack, though that is the pricey'er half, if I can trade for candelabra of tawnos, I can find a way to trade for these >^,^<

[rxavage]

This and Maverick are the 2 next decks I'm going to focus on obtaining, time to trade like crazy, again! though at least with this deck I only need about half of it, volcanic island / griselbrand / emrakul / misdirection / sneak attack, though that is the pricey'er half, if I can trade for candelabra of tawnos, I can find a way to trade for these >^,^<


Welcome to the dark side and good luck in your endeavors.

[Esper3k]

May the screams and whining of your opponents keep you warm at night. (I know it does for me)

[DragoFireheart]

Explain to me how this deck doesn't auto lose to Reanimator.

Show and Tell? LOL Angel of Despair/Blazing Archon/ their own Griselbrand.

Got a Griselbrand in hand? LOL they Thoughtseize it and reanimate it later at their convenience.

They run as much disruption as you if not more ala Discard, which will royally screw up you setting up the combo.

[rxavage]

Explain to me how this deck doesn't auto lose to Reanimator.

Show and Tell? LOL Angel of Despair/Blazing Archon/ their own Griselbrand.

Got a Griselbrand in hand? LOL they Thoughtseize it and reanimate it later at their convenience.

They run as much disruption as you if not more ala Discard, which will royally screw up you setting up the combo.



LOL at playing reanimator and having creatures in hand. Honestly its a tough match-up but not nearly auto-lose, especially g2-3. And it's funny when your TS gets misdirected. Then when I sneak attack with Emmy lolzes on you LOL.LOL>LOL... See how stupid that looks. LOL.


Also, Brainstorm is a card. I mean seriously think about these things. Reanimator is just slightly faster but there is also much more hate.

[DragoFireheart]

LOL at playing reanimator and having creatures in hand. Honestly its a tough match-up but not nearly auto-lose, especially g2-3. And it's funny when your TS gets misdirected. Then when I sneak attack with Emmy lolzes on you LOL.LOL>LOL... See how stupid that looks. LOL.


Also, Brainstorm is a card. I mean seriously think about these things. Reanimator is just slightly faster but there is also much more hate.

Counter your brainstorm/MD? Duress/Thoughtseize on first turn?

Also, for game 2/3, you're weakning your combo to give you a better fightning chance while they are all set those games. They bring in their own SnT, use discard to see what you have first before they cast.

[Koby]

If we're playing the "best possible scenario" then anything can happen. Try to beat a grindy game of "2-card combo" is where skill kicks in. Show & Tell (as a card) is a liability. We board it out for Through the Breach, along with bounce for Blazing Archon.

[DragoFireheart]

If we're playing the "best possible scenario" then anything can happen. Try to beat a grindy game of "2-card combo" is where skill kicks in. Show & Tell (as a card) is a liability. We board it out for Through the Breach, along with bounce for Blazing Archon.

So your only means of winning is Sneak Attack?

[Koby]

So your only means of winning is Sneak Attack?

Do you even read at all?

[DragoFireheart]

Do you even read at all?

Apparently not. :laugh:

I thought it was a bounce spell. :tongue:

Are there any alternatives for cheating guys into play? I'm not fond of getting only one shot to hit them, especially at 5 mana like that.

[Koby]

Apparently not. :laugh:

I thought it was a bounce spell. :tongue:

Are there any alternatives for cheating guys into play? I'm not fond of getting only one shot to hit them, especially at 5 mana like that.

There is Fold into Æther but it's a 4 mana counterspell. That seems excessively slow. We also bring in graveyard hate to remove Reanimator's ability to cheat at Magic.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, but aren't we diluting our deck to fight theirs?

[rxavage]

Yeah, but aren't we diluting our deck to fight theirs?

Not really, it dilutes it to the point any other g2-3 would.

[Esper3k]

Plus, if you shut off their yard, you're going to have quite a bit more time to set up your own combo.

I also think them bringing in Show & Tell is probably incorrect as our dudes (Griselbrand / Emrakul) tend to trump their guys. As Koby mentioned, even if they happen to have Blazing Archon (which they're probably only going to be playing 1-2 of), we still have the ability to bounce it and kill them.

[Water_Wizard]

There is Fold into Æther but it's a 4 mana counterspell. That seems excessively slow. We also bring in graveyard hate to remove Reanimator's ability to cheat at Magic.

Unless I'm reading Fold into Aether wrong, it's the spell's controller that gets to put a creature into play (not Fold into Aether's caster). Although I do give you mad props for being able to figure out how to do that funny AE thing.

Through the Breach is strictly better. For FiA to work, you would have to cast and counter your own spell.

I think Reanimator will get hated out by all of the other decks. While graveyard resurrection is a turn quicker than hand-based cheat-a-fatty-into-play effects, graveyard resurrection is subject to a lot more hate. Players have been skimping on the graveyard hate in their sideboards and Reid Duke took advantage of that. If everyone runs 1-2 more pieces of graveyard hate next week, Reanimator is facing more of an uphill battle.

Reid Duke won with Reanimator last week, but 1) it's Reid Duke (he's a great player) and 2) it's only one week. Sure, there will be copy-cat decks in Atlanta, but just like when Burn won back-to-back SCGs, it was hot for a few weeks and it fell back into place.

I predict one of two things will happen over the coming weeks:
1) The field will adapt to fight Reanimator and put it back in its place (through running more graveyard hate), or
2) Griselbanned

[Koby]

Ya reading cards FTW. I saw someone suggest it and thought it read YOU put a creature. Nix that idea.

[rxavage]

Reid Duke won with Reanimator last week, but 1) it's Reid Duke (he's a great player)

Not to mention every feature match I watched dude always had Entomb. I'm not saying he cheated at all just that he had lucky draws. Also noticed he didn't have to mull often. Luck/variance and matchups play just as big a part as skill.

[Water_Wizard]

Yes, that and how people play against you. There was a fair amount of discussion below the SCG article recounting last week's final match regarding Duke's opponent's decision to Daze his EOT Entomb. The scenario is this.

Match 3, Reid is on the play. Reid drops a Polluted Delta and passes the turn. His opponent makes a Delver and at EOT Reid cracks for Swamp and casts Entomb. Opponent Dazes. Gerry T (in the comments) makes a good point that that's a strong tell Reid has a 2nd Entomb in hand (else, why wouldn't Reid cast Entomb on his 1st main to avoid Daze?). The counter argument to this is that Reid is playing around Tormod's Crypt (his opponent had 3 in his sideboard). Anyway, a debate breaks out over whether his opponent should counterspell Reid's enablers (Entomb, Careful Study, Hapless Researcher) or Reid's reanimation spells (Reanimate, Exhume). It's probably best to counterspell the reanimation spells, especially considering you can fight the enablers with Crypt or Ooze (you have more answers to enablers and Reid is running fewer reanimation spells (8 reanimation spells to 9 enablers, excluding sideboard decisions), but Daze loses potency as the game goes on.

I digress, but adding to rxavage's factor's below, the experience and skill of your opponent also comes into play. I love SCG's Top 8 Legacy Profiles each week - it seems like half or more of the top 8 has never played Legacy before in their lives - Matt Costa's (Reid's finals opponent) response when asked how long he had been playing this weekend's weapon of choice - "Second time playing it."

Since Reanimator hasn't been a DTB for the past few months, someone new to the Legacy scene wouldn't exactly know how to optimally play against it. Another benefit to running a 'fringe' deck - the surprise factor - newer/inexperienced players won't include it in their testing gauntlet and you'll get a few free wins because people won't know how to optimally play against you.

[lambert101]

hey everyone....just getting into this deck. Thinking about moving away from T.E.S. It looks like a ton of fun. So what would be a good list to start with? I noticed some people play Daze and others do not. Also whats a good side board plan for Maverick and RUG?


P.S. I have only played T.E.S. and Belcher for the past 2 years as my first Legacy decks.

Many Thanks.
-Lambert101

[rxavage]

Ya reading cards FTW. I saw someone suggest it and thought it read YOU put a creature. Nix that idea.


Gitaxian Probe is played along with it, so it becomes a 3 card combo but its got some surprise factor if the person doesn't have a clue and they'll probably laugh to themselves while you counter your own Probe then feel stupid when you drop Gris/Emma.

[Deez_Naughts]

I will reiterate again; Gilded Drake.

I suspect this technology is being grossly overlooked...

[JPA]

hey everyone....just getting into this deck. Thinking about moving away from T.E.S. It looks like a ton of fun. So what would be a good list to start with? I noticed some people play Daze and others do not. Also whats a good side board plan for Maverick and RUG?


P.S. I have only played T.E.S. and Belcher for the past 2 years as my first Legacy decks.

Many Thanks.
-Lambert101

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46501

That's the stock list I would recommend to anyone. I tested with it a lot (among other lists) and it is, in my opinion, just the best one.

Against RUG you would board in the Blasts, probably for 2 Intuition and 1 Misdirection. Against Maverick bringing in the Through the Breaches and Echoing Truths, taking out the Misdirections and 1 Intuition or something like that.

But these 2 matchups are pretty good in general. Against RUG, we have enough counters to push our combo through. Versus Maverick/Karakas we have Griselbrand, who will draw us enough cards to win via Sneak Attack.

Btw, we are back to Deck to Beat! :)

[Esper3k]

I'm still a pretty big fan of Blood Moon both against RUG and Maverick. RUG players still aren't playing any basics, so it becomes another bomb we throw that they have to counter or lose the game (if they don't have much pressure out). Against Maverick, it shuts off Karakas.

[Esper3k]

Also, how do people feel about Pyroclasm against Maverick? It cooks off all the little dudes like Thalia & Qasali Pridemage (to slow them down and give us more time), but is considerably less effective when Mother is around.

Also, do you guys really board out some Misdirections against RUG? I feel maximizing the number of FoWs in that matchup is so important since we can play around much of their countermagic (Daze, Spell Pierce) and stopping their hard counters (FoW, REB) is the real key to getting down Show & Tell / Sneak Attack?

[Deez_Naughts]

I'm still a pretty big fan of Blood Moon both against RUG and Maverick. RUG players still aren't playing any basics, so it becomes another bomb we throw that they have to counter or lose the game (if they don't have much pressure out). Against Maverick, it shuts off Karakas.

There is an underlying misconception regarding Blood Moon vs RUG. In decks that play the midrange and/or control strategy Blood Moon is a bomb. With Sneak/Show, we simply win by resolving Show/Sneak turn(s) 2-4; for which they have no awnser, there by making Blood Moon almost redundant, that is, if your resolving Blood Moon, you would have simply combo'd off.

As previously mentioned, Blood Moon vs Maverick is ok, but Griselbrand simply goes over the top of Karakas with Sneak and Breach.

Those 3 SB slots are much better off shoring up the tech and bounce slots.

[Deez_Naughts]

Also, how do people feel about Pyroclasm against Maverick? It cooks off all the little dudes like Thalia & Qasali Pridemage (to slow them down and give us more time), but is considerably less effective when Mother is around.

Also, do you guys really board out some Misdirections against RUG? I feel maximizing the number of FoWs in that matchup is so important since we can play around much of their countermagic (Daze, Spell Pierce) and stopping their hard counters (FoW, REB) is the real key to getting down Show & Tell / Sneak Attack?

I have found sweepers to be much to narrow against the field, including Maverick, given MoR.

As for boarding vs RUG, I go -1 MisD, -2 Intuition (as most lists run Extraction), +3 REB

My current list:

4x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Island
2x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain

4x Griselbrand
4x Emrakul, The Aeons Torn

4x Lotus Petal
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack
3x Misdirection
2x Intuition
1x Preordain

Side Board:

4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Echoing Truth
2x Through The Breach

I have finally come around to the idea of cutting Daze, and adding the full complament of Pierces, and a Preordain. Given my success with this archetype, I have a good feeling of what works, and I belive Spell Pierce to be a real lynch pin for this deck, espicially given the increase of Show based decks and Reanimator. All in all, Pierce is extremely good right now, and I suspect it will be for quite sometime.

[Esper3k]

There is an underlying misconception regarding Blood Moon vs RUG. In decks that play the midrange and/or control strategy Blood Moon is a bomb. With Sneak/Show, we simply win by resolving Show/Sneak turn(s) 2-4; for which they have no awnser, there by making Blood Moon almost redundant, that is, if your resolving Blood Moon, you would have simply combo'd off.

As previously mentioned, Blood Moon vs Maverick is ok, but Griselbrand simply goes over the top of Karakas with Sneak and Breach.

Those 3 SB slots are much better off shoring up the tech and bounce slots.

See, while I agree that Blood Moon isn't good against RUG if they have pressure on the board, my experience with it is that it's another must-counter for them otherwise they lose the game in most situations. If it resolves, great - you won. If it doesn't, it ate countermagic that could've stopped Show & Tell / Sneak Attack.


I have found sweepers to be much to narrow against the field, including Maverick, given MoR.

As for boarding vs RUG, I go -1 MisD, -2 Intuition (as most lists run Extraction), +3 REB

Yeah, I was thinking Pyroclasm might be a little too narrow, but man I also hate losing to Elves!

Against RUG (and most lists in general), I'll board out Intuition as well due to Extractions. I've been preferring Flusterstorm / Cliques over REBs though. I've really been liking Clique because it frees up your mana on your combo turn and deals with pretty much anything your opponent might be holding in their hand to drop off your Show & Tell or extra countermagic.

[useL]

Sooo,

who will continue to play this deck when Griselbrand gets axed in a few days? I feel I might have overcommitted and bought 4 Griselbrand too soon.

[JPA]

I will play this deck until either enabler gets banned. :-) Maybe not as my main choice anymore, also because I have found it more fun to play interactive decks lately (I just feel dirty when I play with Griselbrand xD), but it will still be a pretty decent deck without Griselbrand.

[Esper3k]

Just picked up my 4th foil GB, so I'm all in!

[catmint]

surely not playing it without griselbrand. Sneak Attack Progenitus... :cry:

[rxavage]

surely not playing it without griselbrand. Sneak Attack Progenitus... :cry:

SneakShow was a decent option over Reanimator in the meta before Griselbrand was printed. Granted Gris has given the deck some consistency it was lacking but I think if he is banned Progenitus will do ok in a meta filled with Mav and UW miracle.

[Michael Keller]

If Gilded Drake starts getting out of control to fight it off and either piece is still legal, there's always GriselBrand (http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGUSG/brand.jpg)!

[rxavage]

If Gilded Drake starts getting out of control to fight it off and either piece is still legal, there's always GriselBrand (http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGUSG/brand.jpg)!

LOL. Not bad, and it cycles!

[bfeingersh]

Has anyone figured out something to beat Reanimator? I played against it 3/4 rounds at a small GPT yesterday and it felt impossible to win :frown:

[lochlan]

Beating Reanimator starts with 4 Grafdigger's Cages. They can't bring in Show and Tell post-board, thus Cage totally shuts down their deck. Their only out to a resolved Cage is bounce, so it slows them down considerably.

They are almost always going to win game 1, so the only hope is to blow them out games 2 and 3--thus 4 Cages are required, 3 will never be enough (even with cantrips). My current sideboard plan vs. Reanimator is bounce (1x Echoing Truth and 1x Wipe Away, for Pithing Needle naming Sneak Attack), Cage, Through the Breach, and a couple tech slots, and it's been working very well.

Edit: another important piece is to make sure you're not dismantling your deck when you SB. A lot of people see Lotus Petals and Intuition as being the go-to flex slots, but that's not always correct. Reanimator is faster than you, so if you board out four Petals and two Intuitions you'll be slow and have a hard time finding the win. Obviously Show and Tell is the best board-out in the Reanimator match-up, but I'd also go for: 1x Intuition, 2x Misdirection, 1x Preordain, and maybe up to one lotus petal depending on what your board looks like.

[rxavage]

Has anyone figured out something to beat Reanimator? I played against it 3/4 rounds at a small GPT yesterday and it felt impossible to win :frown:

Fight over their entomb's, careful studies, and Thoughseize if they target themselves, you also need atleast 4 pieces of gy-hate. If they run exhume leave your intuitions in so you can intuition for Griselbrand in exhume one of your own blowing theirs. I run a Wipe Away main so I don't auto lose to Blazing Archon g1 and side 2 more Echoing Truth. So I'm Usually siding in 4 relic, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Through the Breach, and 2 REB while taking out 4 Show&Tell, 2 Spell Pierce, 4 Lotus Petal. I'm unsure if siding the petals out is correct but theyre already faster than us anyways. I'd maybe even take out 2 ponder for 2 Vendilion Clique now that i think about it. Also, playing around Daze at all times is a given.

[catmint]

Reanimator has been discussed already, but let's go through it again now that SCG figured out that Reanimator would be a good choice right now.

G1 is of course bad. You need luck. Don't be shy going for S&T if there is no sneak attack in sight. So of course it kind of starts as an uphill battle. G2 you have to go on "full control" mode. I bring in:
+ 2 Grafidggers Cage
+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Echoing Truth
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Divert

- 4 Show & Tell
- 3 Lotus Petal
- 3 Creatures (2 Griselbrand, 1 Emrakul)
- 1 Preordain

[Final Fortune]

If you have to SB out Show&Tell then you need to SB in Through the Breach in order not to be completely passive in the match up. It's an irritating loss of SB space for Reanimator, but just trying to out counter them and out hate them leaves you in awkwards situations where you're struggling to assemble the win condition.

The same applies to the mirror, Through the Breach becomes the most important card in your SB IMO.

[lochlan]

Through the Breach becomes the most important card in your SB IMO.

I could not agree more. Vs. Reanimator I expect Pithing Needle naming Sneak Attack. If I didn't bring in Through the Breach (in addition to my bounce) I could not win.

And my testing has shown that taking out your Lotus Petals is a bad idea. "Full control" means you're giving them more turns to win (or find Pithing Needle) before you can execute your plan. Although the deck feels hopelessly slow compared to Reanimator that doesn't mean you should just give up all hope of ending the game quickly.

[catmint]

Sure ,Through the Breach is the best option in a meta with a lot of Reanimator and Show and Tell. It was not that important for my current meta so not in the SB so far, but Pithing Needle out of Reanimators SB is a very good argument.

Concerning "Full control". What I mean with that is you are only casting cantrips to find hate and leave mana open for counterspells. If you lock them out with cage or "blow them out" with surgical extraction you do have a lot more time to win.

I don't know the exact SB plan of Reanimator, but them needing discard, bounce and needle I suppose they do not have space for surgical extractions which means we can keept the intuations in to support the quick win when needed.

[whienot]

Strictly regarding the mirror and Reanimator, is Through the Breach better than Bribery?

[Deez_Naughts]

Strictly regarding the mirror and Reanimator, is Through the Breach better than Bribery?

Against Re-animator Bribery does not work well with Cage. Also, by the time it comes online, they will have probably pitched dudes to the bin.

Against the mirror, it's ok I guess, but I don't like the double UU.

[Water_Wizard]

Fight over their entomb's, careful studies, and Thoughseize if they target themselves

You think it's better to fight over then enabler as opposed to the reanimation spell?

The current reanimator lists are running more enablers than reanimation spells, so I figured it would be better to fight the reanimation spells.

Careful Study allows filtering, so it may be best to fight it. Because enablers are played before reanimation spells, Daze/Spell Pierce are also more effective.

This is more of a strategy discussion, but I thought it was better to let them bin a creature and then attempt to battle the reanimation.

Thoughts?

[rxavage]

You think it's better to fight over then enabler as opposed to the reanimation spell?

The current reanimator lists are running more enablers than reanimation spells, so I figured it would be better to fight the reanimation spells.

Careful Study allows filtering, so it may be best to fight it. Because enablers are played before reanimation spells, Daze/Spell Pierce are also more effective.

This is more of a strategy discussion, but I thought it was better to let them bin a creature and then attempt to battle the reanimation.

Thoughts?


It depends on the lists but generally they will run more reanimation spells than discard, but that may not be so now. Hitting their Careful Studies with REBs is fun, they can't dig for answers/bin fatties. It really comes down to the fact that if you lose the counter war over the reanimation spell they have that fatty now as opposed to binning it then having to resolve the reanimation spell after exhausting their resources. I guess you have to pick your battle..

I'm really considering going with 3 relic 3 surgical extraction in the sb as reanimator and uw miracle are gaining momentum. The extractions are versatile and can help bait or remove counter/removal(terminus). I've gone to a counter-suite of 4 fow, 3misD, 3flusterstorm too.

[Koby]

Do people really have trouble against the Miracle deck? Aside from the cards that lock out combat (Peacekeepr, humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc) what clock does Miracles put on us? So long as we resolve Sneak Attack we win.

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show to act sooner than it should is going to lose to a resolved Sneak Attack. Even Karakas can't beat an active Sneak Attack.

[Water_Wizard]

I've been playing 4 Relics. I was on 4 GDC, but I ran into an unfortunate situation against AggroLoam and LoamPox and I decided I needed to be able to remove that graveyard as opposed to preventing creatures/spells from coming into play/being cast out of it.

Regarding my counter-suite, I'm running 4 Spell Pierce / 4 FOW / 2 Misdirection (0 Daze / Flusterstorm). I'm also running 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder / 2 Preordain / 1 Vendilion Clique (0 Intuition). The Vendilion Clique is "experimental" and I'm considering it a flex slot with the possibilities of Intution or Wipe Away. Overall, I like Clique because it has implications against Control and Combo. I feel S&S does well against the "fair" decks and the Clique can help disrupt combo / start a clock and it serves as a "must counter" against Control. Interestingly, if you eot Intuition, good Control players will let your Intuition resolve and fight the card you select with it (the exception being if you are going for 3X Lingering Souls). However, when you bring Clique into the match, they must counter the Clique or lose their FOW and face a clock (plus give up valuable information about their hand).

My sideboard is also pretty crazy at the moment:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Submerge

The most notable "absence" in my sideboard is the lack of REB/Pyroblast. The reason I didn't include REB/PB is because I was getting "counterspell overload." When I used to run Daze/Intuition, I had easy sideboard options during games 2/3. However, now I don't think the sideboard slot is worth the marginal value of bringing in a REB/PB over a Spell Pierce or Misdirection.

Against RUG, I bring in the Blood Moons, because it is a "must counter," as if it lands, it turns off all of their Dazes/Spell Pierces. Against RUG, I think - 1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Griselbrand, +3 Blood Moon is appropriate given my list. What do you think?

[Water_Wizard]

My list, for reference, is pretty standard:
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
7 Fetch
(19 Land)

4 Lotus Petal

4 Grisel
4 Emrakul

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

1 Vendilion Clique (Flex slot - could be Intuition / Wipe Away / Misdirection / Flusterstorm / Daze)

[Koby]

Emrakul is less important than Griselbrand against RUG, but it's semantics really. They can't beat either one, and we lost to Gilded Drake. /nitpick

[Water_Wizard]

Yes, good point. I live in fear of the stifled draw 7, so that is my reason for cutting Griselbrand. Thoughts on the June 20th bannings? Sneak and Show did not do well at last weekend's SCG (despite, reportedly, being well represented). However, the recent emergence of Reid Duke's Reanimator lists running 4 Griselbrands may put his demon-head on the chopping block.

I think WotC will wait on Griselbrand. It's rare they ban creatures and there are certainly answers in the current meta game (albeit, some have been slow to deploy them).

[rxavage]

Do people really have trouble against the Miracle deck? Aside from the cards that lock out combat (Peacekeepr, humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc) what clock does Miracles put on us? So long as we resolve Sneak Attack we win.

Any deck that doesn't put pressure on Sneak Show to act sooner than it should is going to lose to a resolved Sneak Attack. Even Karakas can't beat an active Sneak Attack.

The first time I played against it I lost do to play mistakes, the second time I faced the deck I 2-0'd. The deck gives so much time to sculpt your hand against it its absurd but I have a feeling this match-up will become a bitch in the future. My suggestion of using SE on terminus was just something I threw out there without much thought, if you're extracting a terminus you're probably going to lose. But I'm still hard pressed to include extractions in my 75, 4 relics are cutting it for now.



@WaterWizard
Also, I'd side out an Emmy before Gris but that would also depend on the matchup and what else was being sided.

[Koby]

Friend: "Want to playtest more games with Sneak Show?"
Me: "No, I'm sick of playing"
Friend: "Aren't you playing this at the GP?"
Me: "Yes, 10 min of game play 40 min of downtime. I don't actually like interacting in Legacy right now."

:laugh:

I really like the 2 Preordain build right now. It definitely makes the deck "tick". I would be inclined to push it to 3 Preordain too, but that makes sideboard plans really clunky. Here's my proposed SB:

3 Blood Moon
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 REB/pyro mix
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away (might swap the numbers of bounce, altho I doubt i bringin Wipe Away against just Karakas)
2 Through the Breach

Maindeck I might swap 1 Misdirection for 1 Spell Pierce - have to test against Reanimator more to figure out for sure.

[Esper3k]

I've been playing 2 Preordain / 1 Intuition myself. As awesome as Intuition is, my issue with it was that:

1) I didn't feel like 8 cantrips was enough to consistently dig with on Turns 1 & 2.
2) Intuition was slow and sometimes I'd be too far behind for a Show & Tell to save me.

It's pretty refreshing to be playing a deck that pretty much ignores combat math & Mother of Runes.

[rxavage]

I've been playing 2 Preordain / 1 Intuition myself. As awesome as Intuition is, my issue with it was that:

1) I didn't feel like 8 cantrips was enough to consistently dig with on Turns 1 & 2.
2) Intuition was slow and sometimes I'd be too far behind for a Show & Tell to save me.

It's pretty refreshing to be playing a deck that pretty much ignores combat math & Mother of Runes.


I used to feel the same way until whiffing on the preordains more than I prefered. Intuition gets what you need in hand at instant speed, which allows for eot--> win the following turn. Whether you're going for the wincon, enabler, or protection the only thing you have to fear is Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I'm crazy but I was running 2 preordains while everyone was running 2 intuition and now I switch to Intuition and... well you get the idea. It's also possible I haven't done nearly enough testing. Same thing with the single Wipe Away I put in the main, I never seem to find it when I need it and it could probably be better served as another cantrip. I like Flusterstorm over pierce, personal preference.

[Esper3k]

I used to feel the same way until whiffing on the preordains more than I prefered. Intuition gets what you need in hand at instant speed, which allows for eot--> win the following turn. Weather you're going for the wincon, enabler, or protection the only thing you have to fear is Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I'm crazy but I was running 2 preordains while everyone was running 2 intuition and now I switch to Intuition and... well you get the idea. It's also possible I haven't done nearly enough testing. Same thing with the single Wipe Away I put in the main, I never seem to find it when I need it and it could probably be better served as another cantrip. I like Flusterstorm over pierce, personal preference.

Yeah, I started out playing 3x Intuition and found myself opening with 1-2 and wishing it was something faster. I felt Intuition adds to our consistency, but is slower. To be fair, every time I Preordain, I curse that it's not Brainstorm or Ponder :)

I also like Flusterstorm - I play those instead of Spell Pierces as well. If you're wanting to win counter wars, Flusterstorm is simply better than Spell Pierce. For non-creature hate you might be Spell Piercing, I just run more bounce to deal with it.

[Water_Wizard]

How much bounce do you run main? One wipe away?

The flusterstorm/spell pierce question, we know the pros/cons (flusterstorm is better at winning a counter war, while spell pierce hits planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments).

The main reason I run Pierce is Liliana. Even with bounce, they still hold priority and make you sacrifice a creature or discard, so you're losing 2:1 if you use a bounce spell.

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

[Final Fortune]

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

I tried, without Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce Storm decks will just roll you.

[Esper3k]

If the purpose of flusterstorm is to win counter wars, why not just run REB/PB main? Or Dispel?

I understand Flusterstorm has the ability to hit instant and sorceries, which is nice if you are playing against discard and counter spells.

That's a really good point. I kind of like Flusterstorm over REB/PB since it's blue and pitches to Force (and most of the time, it's just as good at stopping countermagic). On top of that, I'm oftentimes fetching my basic Islands out and don't necessarily have R open (easier to protect if you have Island, Island, Sol Land in play, for example).

So for me, it's the combination of being easier to use than REB/PB, more powerful than Spell Pierce for stopping countermagic, but still more flexible than Dispel.

[Water_Wizard]

Esper3k - very good point! I am also always fetching basic Islands first in order to cantrip, so we most likely will have more U available than R.

I haven't faced very many storm decks lately (might just be my meta). However, a few weeks ago when I was facing Belcher a lot, I ran Flusterstorm without question (I ran a 2/1 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce split with 3 Daze and 0 Misdirections - I also ran 2 BEB from the board). However, even against Belcher, Flusterstorm put me in some tricky situations because I had to decide if they were trying to cast Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charbelcher. Against Charbelcher, a Flusterstorm isn't doing me much good.

Anyway, I digress.

[Esper3k]

Against Belcher, I think most of the time it's safest to stop them when they're playing the last accelerant to get to 4 mana.

Sure, you can try and go for the blowout, but if they cast the wrong finisher, you're dead.

[Koby]

Against Belcher, I think most of the time it's safest to stop them when they're playing the last accelerant to get to 4 mana.

Sure, you can try and go for the blowout, but if they cast the wrong finisher, you're dead.

Also, if they cast Land Grant it makes it that much easier.

[Water_Wizard]

True, true.

And it can be difficult to determine when they are at "4 mana."

With ESG, SSG, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox (the first two being uncounterable) 2 mana or 3 mana could really equal 4 mana.

Do you counter the first Rite of Flame you see each turn? Doubtful.

Anyway, I digress. Again...

[Koby]

I think the points on Flusterstorm are worth examining against the wider metagame. Spell Pierce has its merits too, but I feel mostly against decks with non-Sorcery/Instant answers to the combo, like Humility and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of those cases are better answers with bounce regardless?

[Esper3k]

True, true.

And it can be difficult to determine when they are at "4 mana."

With ESG, SSG, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox (the first two being uncounterable) 2 mana or 3 mana could really equal 4 mana.

Do you counter the first Rite of Flame you see each turn? Doubtful.

Anyway, I digress. Again...

You can look at the storm count and determine what you're afraid of, I guess. Unless they're using Land Grant, they're going to have to start going off starting with a Petal or Lotus. If they go Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Spirit Guide, Spirit Guide, then you don't really have to worry too much about ETW since their storm count is pretty low.

It's always somewhat of a gamble unless they're kind enough to Land Grant (as Koby pointed out) and give you perfect information :)


I think the points on Flusterstorm are worth examining against the wider metagame. Spell Pierce has its merits too, but I feel mostly against decks with non-Sorcery/Instant answers to the combo, like Humility and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of those cases are better answers with bounce regardless?

For me, I like Wipe Away over Echoing Truth against Humility & Ensnaring Bridge. Against decks that typically run those (especially Humility), they're:

1) Playing blue - ie, have countermagic so Split Second is important
2) Have a slow clock - you have plenty of time to get mana for Wipe Away's increased cost.

Also, from my experience, those types of decks tend to let you get out Griselbrand & Emrakul once they have Humility / Bridge in play, so while they're laughing at you, you can set up your dudes (or Sneak Attack), then Wipe Away / I kill you.

[JPA]

Griselnotbanned! :cool:

[Suneloon]

:smile:

[CabalTherapy]

Okay guys,

there's always a point where a journey ends. My SneakAttack journey with all of you ends now. I sold all my Show and Tell-Stuff. All Enabelers, alls Creatures, all Enchantments, all Pacts. This is due to the B/R-Update in a few weeks. Even though I strongly believe that Show and Tell is not banworthy, I cannot say for sure what WotC does. I sent them the results of this poll in this forum with 25-75 for banning Show and Tell. I hope this helps to keep Show and Tell legal. I, for my part, cannot risk to lose 400€ at once. I wish all of you all the best, and keep putting up good results! Thanks for all the good discussions and conversations we had. May the force be with you.

Greetings

Good job, dude.

[jccarter]

I may have read it incorrectly, but I swore one of the starcity legacy tournament top 10er's with sneak and show was boarding 1 wood primus. What's the use in that? I can understand boarding 3 considering you could fetch with intuition, but beyond that I thought that was pretty dumb. Maybe I'm wrong?

By the way, the counterbalance top combo. I got raped by sneak and show pretty frequently until I started boarding in pithing needle and a 2nd karakas (main deck one). I needled the sneak 1st turn, 2nd turn brand with another needle. He showed emrakul his turn two and then I dropped karakas 2nd turn. I ended up winning. Lucky draw for me, but anyways. Moral of the story, karakas is nasty against sneak and show

[jccarter]

Griselnotbanned! :cool:

Amen! I hate the people whining about him in legacy. Honestly? I can understand EDH, but there are ways to put up with him in Legacy. You only see him really in Sneak and Show and Dredge decks. Karakas can shut him down, pithing needle as well.

[Deez_Naughts]

I think the points on Flusterstorm are worth examining against the wider metagame. Spell Pierce has its merits too, but I feel mostly against decks with non-Sorcery/Instant answers to the combo, like Humility and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of those cases are better answers with bounce regardless?

It's the exact opposite, Pierce is better in a wider, larger, and diverse meta game, where your information on the field is limited. Where Flusterstorm is more effective in smaller local meta's, where you have a better understanding of what is being played.

The bottom line is the cat is out of the bag with this archetype, and as the meta adjusts, our SB bounce spells do nothing to awnser main deck silver bullets.

[Hopo]

Verbal warning for spam and flaming. - Bardo

[rxavage]

A friend that usually pilots RUG decided to try sneakshow for a night went 1-3 and says the deck sucks, lol. I tried to explain he didn't know how to play the deck and he replies that Gilded Drake makes the deck unplayable just because his turn 2 Show&Tell backfired.

[Koby]

A friend that usually pilots RUG decided to try sneakshow for a night went 1-3 and says the deck sucks, lol. I tried to explain he didn't know how to play the deck and he replies that Gilded Drake makes the deck unplayable just because his turn 2 Show&Tell backfired.

So he discovered what we already discussed? That Show and Tell is not the end-all be-all in this deck?

Sneak Attack is the safer game plan, but at the cost of speed.

[Esper3k]

I may have read it incorrectly, but I swore one of the starcity legacy tournament top 10er's with sneak and show was boarding 1 wood primus. What's the use in that? I can understand boarding 3 considering you could fetch with intuition, but beyond that I thought that was pretty dumb. Maybe I'm wrong?

By the way, the counterbalance top combo. I got raped by sneak and show pretty frequently until I started boarding in pithing needle and a 2nd karakas (main deck one). I needled the sneak 1st turn, 2nd turn brand with another needle. He showed emrakul his turn two and then I dropped karakas 2nd turn. I ended up winning. Lucky draw for me, but anyways. Moral of the story, karakas is nasty against sneak and show

Yeah from what I understand Primus is just played as a Sneak Attack guy since he'll Persist and come back. Probably also an alternative to permanent based hate (although I think Angel of Despair would probably be better for that then?).

2x Pithing Needle + Karakas in hand by T2 is pretty good I hear :)

=========================================

Btw, is anyone else also excited by Land Tax being unbanned and it's implications for us?

Imo, Land Tax is horrible for those tempo decks that are based on Stifle/Wasteland denying your opponent mana (*cough*RUG*cough*).

Of course, we don't care if our opponent wants to spend a card and fetch 3 basics :)

[rxavage]

So he discovered what we already discussed? That Show and Tell is not the end-all be-all in this deck?

Sneak Attack is the safer game plan, but at the cost of speed.


Pretty much. But people are still going to bitch and whine and believe that the deck is a broken unstoppable juggernaut that can be piloted by any moron.





On Land Tax:

I picked up a nm Legends playset last night for 70$ and I'm regretting not picking up more while I had the chance. I'm hoping the card finds a home and is competitve.

[JPA]

I may have read it incorrectly, but I swore one of the starcity legacy tournament top 10er's with sneak and show was boarding 1 wood primus. What's the use in that? I can understand boarding 3 considering you could fetch with intuition, but beyond that I thought that was pretty dumb. Maybe I'm wrong?


David McDarby played 1 Woodfall Primus in his sideboard that made 2nd at SCG Orlando. It was his out vs stuff like Ensnaring Bridge (didn't play bounce) and it's much easier to draw into 1-ofs with Griselbrand.

[Esper3k]

Pretty much. But people are still going to bitch and whine and believe that the deck is a broken unstoppable juggernaut that can be piloted by any moron.





On Land Tax:

I picked up a nm Legends playset last night for 70$ and I'm regretting not picking up more while I had the chance. I'm hoping the card finds a home and is competitve.

It's also hilarious when people complain about Sneak Attack. Really? Complaining about a 4 mana enchantment that requires you to have another card in hand and that card gets sacrificed at the end of the turn?

[mike1987]

What do you guys think of this card?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/omniscience/

[Esper3k]

I think it's neat, but not for this deck.

Part of the power of the deck is that both Show & Tell and Sneak Attack are individually usually game enders when you cast them.

Omniscience is something that you pretty much have to Show & Tell to cast.

======================================================

On a different note, I've been just brainstorming and messing with some ideas and here are two cards I was thinking about trying to incorporate and test in the main deck:

Gitaxian Probe

I've been fairly unhappy with Preordain and Probe similarly cantrips. The pros are obviously so you can see if you're walking into a blowout before you Show & Tell and how much countermagic you're going to have to deal with. The cons is that it doesn't actually advance our plan of trying to find one of our two combo pieces.

Impulse

Again, with how unhappy I've been with Preordain, I started looking at other options. With people starting to play less Spell Snares in the meta these days, I'm thinking that 2 mana cantrips are more viable again?

[csy]

how could you be unhappy with preordain? that card is great in this deck. with most decks running 18/19 land and 4 petals the preordains in my deck always help me get there. Gitaxian probe is a card that I've always hated. For the most part its a card that lets you know if its ok to go off, and draw a card. Id rather not pay the 2 life since Im already paying plenty with fetches, tombs, fow, Gmoney. Every extra life payment is 1 less Gdraw.

Against decks that Id be worried about whats in their hand its almost always going feel like Im paying 2 to see that they have disruption. If I dont already have the ability to protect my Show into sneak, or show into fatty then I dont care what your hand is.. Im waiting.

the card Im most unhappy with in the deck is intuition, and Im highly considering cutting the 2 intuitions myself. With how much I worry about top based decks, Im considering running a sneaky think twice, or thought scour to punch the top setup.

[Esper3k]

how could you be unhappy with preordain? that card is great in this deck. with most decks running 18/19 land and 4 petals the preordains in my deck always help me get there. Gitaxian probe is a card that I've always hated. For the most part its a card that lets you know if its ok to go off, and draw a card. Id rather not pay the 2 life since Im already paying plenty with fetches, tombs, fow, Gmoney. Every extra life payment is 1 less Gdraw.

Against decks that Id be worried about whats in their hand its almost always going feel like Im paying 2 to see that they have disruption. If I dont already have the ability to protect my Show into sneak, or show into fatty then I dont care what your hand is.. Im waiting.

the card Im most unhappy with in the deck is intuition, and Im highly considering cutting the 2 intuitions myself. With how much I worry about top based decks, Im considering running a sneaky think twice, or thought scour to punch the top setup.

I'm unhappy with Preordain because I keep wishing it was Brainstorm / Ponder :)

Really, it just doesn't dig enough for me, which was why I've been starting to consider Impulse.

Regarding Probe: It's mainly there to tell you if your Show & Tell is safe or not (ie, do they have a Knight / Drake / something that will push in your shit). I think even casting it the turn before with U (if you're worried about paying the 2 life) is fine if all you're trying to do is see if the way is clear.

[Water_Wizard]

@ Koby - what are your current flex slots? I read in the Miracle Control board you are running 2 Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm (I assume this is inclusive, not two of each). This led me to wonder what else you were running? 3 Misdirection and 2 Intuition? You are on the 10 cantrip plan, I was just wondering what else you are running main (besides the 23 mana, 8 creature, 8 business, 10 cantrip, 4 FOW spells I already know about)?

I plan to change my sideboard (from page 59) -2 Submerges to +2 Pyroclasm to deal with Elves, BW, Thalia and other random small creature decks that have been popping up on MODO.

[Koby]

The only recent change I'm trying is -2 SPierce +2 Flusterstorm as a way to hedge my game against Reanimator (Entomb/reanimate/counter-war that ensues). The list hasn't changed from what I posted 3 weeks ago aside from the changeout in 1cc counterspell.

[rxavage]

The only recent change I'm trying is -2 SPierce +2 Flusterstorm as a way to hedge my game against Reanimator (Entomb/reanimate/counter-war that ensues). The list hasn't changed from what I posted 3 weeks ago aside from the changeout in 1cc counterspell.

You won't regret the change. I'm currently running 3 Flusterstorm and seriously contemplating going to 4, I'm just not sure if it's completely necessary.

[csy]

4 flusterstorm is about as overboard as you can legally go. A buddy of mine (you know who you are) said something that totally switched my game plan for piloting SnT.

'Maybe we're just playing differently. Im only interested in countering spells that stop me from going off, now slowing down my opponent'

and he's right I was. Im used to playing reanimator where you play a little more of a control game when you need too, and in fact SnT doesnt care about playing the control game.

[Koby]

'Maybe we're just playing differently. Im only interested in countering spells that stop me from going off, not slowing down my opponent'


More or less, ya.

[rxavage]

4 flusterstorm is about as overboard as you can legally go. A buddy of mine (you know who you are) said something that totally switched my game plan for piloting SnT.

'Maybe we're just playing differently. Im only interested in countering spells that stop me from going off, now slowing down my opponent'

and he's right I was. Im used to playing reanimator where you play a little more of a control game when you need too, and in fact SnT doesnt care about playing the control game.


I made the switch from Reanimator too and stated similar a few pages back, something along the lines of only winning counter wars and Flusterstorm does just that, which is why I'm tempted to run 4. My meta is infested with RUG decks, there is very few non-blue decks. ATM I'm trying out a suite of 4 FoW, 3 misdirection, 3 Flusterstorm. I've thought of replacing the MisD's with Daze although I'm hesitant because I only get to really playtest one night a week and I don't like losing games I don't have to.


BTW, anyone going to GenCon Indy? A few of my buddies and I are planning on driving out. I've never been, how is it?

[Esper3k]

4 flusterstorm is about as overboard as you can legally go. A buddy of mine (you know who you are) said something that totally switched my game plan for piloting SnT.

'Maybe we're just playing differently. Im only interested in countering spells that stop me from going off, now slowing down my opponent'

and he's right I was. Im used to playing reanimator where you play a little more of a control game when you need too, and in fact SnT doesnt care about playing the control game.

Yeah exactly - when we have effectively 7+ Force of Will, we can just go off with odds that we have a much better chance of having Force than they do.

Especially against RUG, whose counters primarily consist of taxing effects like Spell Pierce & Daze, you can play around those and worry pretty much only about Force.

Also, I've found that unless they open a super aggressive hand (T1: Delver, T2 Goyf, etc.) we tend to have time to push through a Show & Tell to just trump whatever they have.

[JJ-JKidd]

Omniscience?

[Esper3k]

@rxavage: I'll be going to GenCon again this year (6th year going). Honestly, it's ways been a lot of fun for me. The sheer number of MTG events is pretty nuts, but just all the other games and things to see & do is awesome as well. If it's not too late, I'd recommend getting a hotel that's within walking distance of the convention center so you and your friends can come and go at your own schedules (there are events around the clock). Having your badges FedEx'd to you is also worth it so you don't have to spend a lot of time waiting in line to get them.


=========================
Did some more testing last night and I may have to start playing Pyroclasm or something in the board for Maverick. Post board, that matchup is just tougher than I'd like it to be. I have not liked Through the Breach against Maverick since between Thalia and Teeg, it's just too unreliable. Even Blood Moon isn't a guarantee out due to Pridemages.

The matchup is still favorable, but not the ass beating I'd like it to be. Anyone have any suggestions on board cards?

[Deez_Naughts]

Omniscience?

It turns a two card combo, into a three card combo. Not playable in Sneak-Show.

[catmint]

=========================
Did some more testing last night and I may have to start playing Pyroclasm or something in the board for Maverick. Post board, that matchup is just tougher than I'd like it to be. I have not liked Through the Breach against Maverick since between Thalia and Teeg, it's just too unreliable. Even Blood Moon isn't a guarantee out due to Pridemages.

The matchup is still favorable, but not the ass beating I'd like it to be. Anyone have any suggestions on board cards?

As already discussed earlier in the thread pithing needle is the best SB option vs. Maverick. Phillip played 25 games with needle and 25 with blood moon to compare which one does a better job against maverick and it was clear in the favour of needle.

The reason is that you can needle karakas & pridemage depending on whats best at the moment and you do not have to "jump through hoops" to get the blood moon out, so playing neelde in the combo turn or 1 turn before does not slow you down.

I dont like removal in the board since it is really only good vs. elves, but pithing needle does work vs. Liliana, Jace, SD.top, Belcher and a lot of other random stuff coming your way.

In a maverick heavy metagame i would put 4 needle in the SB!

[S1N1STER]

I am wondering if I should spend any $ on a couple Japanese Homeward Path, if I start running into Gilded Drake I might give it a try.

[Water_Wizard]

Someone suggested Brand a few days ago. Probably a better option due to the cycling, instant ability, and wasteland-ability-proof. This deck really only wants colorless lands that produce double mana. And, you can buy Brand in Korean, because it's Urza's Saga.

And, the even better part about Brand is that you still get to keep the Drake! (I'm not a rules expert, but because Brand says "you" and Homeward Path says "each player," I think Brand let's you keep the Gilded Drake, while Homeward Path would switch both.)

[Cyrandir]

I agree that Homeward Path is probably not the optimal choice. For Gilded Drake, I think the discussion should be between Stifle and Brand.

Stifle stops the Drake's cip trigger, is blue (pitch to FoW/Misdirection), and is generally more useful.

Brand gets your creature back, cycles, and keeps the drake, but is red (no pitch).

Both are 1cmc instants, so no speed difference.

I think I would generally come down on the side of Stifle. I don't care if they keep their 3/3 flyer and would rather have a utility card that I can pitch to FoW/Misdirection over a cycle. If I'm missing some important aspect of this, someone please let me know.

[Koby]

The thread has taken a turn for the stupid.

REB and Pyroblast already answer Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation right now. We bring them in against Blue decks (that, OMG!) play blue cards. Stifle has some merit against Karakas no doubt, but Blood Moon and Sneak Attack already beat that strategy.

Let's NOT discuss Brand please. As much as I love packing the deck with Saga rares and calling this Mono-Saga.dec, we shouldn't be boarding into Crater Hellion. At least not to beat Gilded Drake :laugh:

[Cyrandir]

How does pyro/REB answer Gilded Drake? Destroying the Drake doesn't return control to you.

Does fine for Sower of Temptation.

[Telperion]

When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make an exchange, sacrifice Gilded Drake. This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)

The exchange must happen for them to get your critter. If you blast the drake before the exchange trigger resolves, they do not get your Emrakul.

[Water_Wizard]

Seems like the thread has taken a turn towards 'Established Decks.'

Was S&S a flash in the pan? It hasn't been putting up the numbers it was a few weeks ago.

Under-powered or under-represented?

Did Reanimator take its spot? Having played the Reanimator v. S&S mu, Reanimator is a turn faster and seeks to do the exact same thing Sneak and Show does, only with more disruption (not to mention, Reanimator turns off our Show and Tells.) Thoughs?

[Koby]

Seems like the thread has taken a turn towards 'Established Decks.'

Was S&S a flash in the pan? It hasn't been putting up the numbers it was a few weeks ago.

Under-powered or under-represented?

Did Reanimator take its spot? Having played the Reanimator v. S&S mu, Reanimator is a turn faster and seeks to do the exact same thing Sneak and Show does, only with more disruption (not to mention, Reanimator turns off our Show and Tells.) Thoughs?

Perhaps Reanimator has. Reanimator has a much higher profile of hate than this deck - graveyard is a resource to them. Comparing the Reanimator / SS matchup is like asking who who is favored: ANT vs TES. There is a clear winner, but the likelihood of seeing this matchup is extremely slim. (assuming 10% Reanimator and 8% Sneak Show in the meta... simple math says 0.8% matching - probably higher since both tend to go to the upper tables rather quickly)

If you're comfortable with the matchup being bad, then the matchups are lopsided -

RUG / Maverick - favored
Reanimator - highly unfavored
everything else - bye

EDIT: oh, and this deck can't actually beat a first turn Liliana of the Veil. (Pox... LOL)
EDIT #2: According to TC Decks, Sneak Show is still #4 deck for June.*Subject to change*

[rxavage]

The thread has taken a turn for the stupid.

REB and Pyroblast already answer Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation right now. We bring them in against Blue decks (that, OMG!) play blue cards. Stifle has some merit against Karakas no doubt, but Blood Moon and Sneak Attack already beat that strategy.

Let's NOT discuss Brand please. As much as I love packing the deck with Saga rares and calling this Mono-Saga.dec, we shouldn't be boarding into Crater Hellion. At least not to beat Gilded Drake :laugh:


Co-signed.

[Esper3k]

I don't think the Reanimator matchup is highly unfavorable, but definitely in their favor.

G1 is pretty rough, but we should have plenty of yard hate to bring in (since Dredge wrecks our shit) for G2 & 3. Their Show & Tell plan is pretty rough against us since most of our guys trump most of their guys.

Regarding Gilded Drake: If you want a card that's really dedicated for fighting stuff like that, try Not Of This World. I don't think there is enough hate like that yet in the meta, but notw stops much of the triggered ability stuff that people have been bringing in and it's faster than Stifle. Otherwise, the simple Show & Tell into Sneak Attack plan is pretty hilarious against Gilded Drakes as well - it's even funnier because when people have one in their hand, they'll tend to let your Show & Tell resolve to try and get a blowout.

Also, is anyone else really happy Lands won the last SCG? Looking at that list, I think we'd have an amazing matchup against it.

[Koby]

Also, is anyone else really happy Lands won the last SCG? Looking at that list, I think we'd have an amazing matchup against it.

Yes, the entire Top 8 too. I especially like that the Elf decks don't pack Emrakul anymore, since they don't like free wins apparently.

[Esper3k]

Yes, the entire Top 8 too. I especially like that the Elf decks don't pack Emrakul anymore, since they don't like free wins apparently.

The Elf decks actually made me sad because that matchup was really bad for us in my testing.

However, I am packing 2-3 Pyroclasms these days to burn small green & white creatures away, so I'm hoping that'll be enough for the pointy-eared bastards.

[Water_Wizard]

EDIT: oh, and this deck can't actually beat a first turn Liliana of the Veil. (Pox... LOL)


Can?

Our deck also has a much better counter-suite than Reanimator. After playing Reanimator this weekend, having Dazes and FOW as your only counters gets old. If you don't go off turn 2, Daze is about dead. Likewise, trying to protect Grisel is tough, since Reanimator only has 4 'hard' counters. Sneak and Shows Flusterstorms and Spell Pierces give the deck some additional utility vs. the field.



EDIT #2: According to TC Decks, Sneak Show is still #4 deck for June.*Subject to change*

Good point. As you mention, subject to change. S&S didn't place in yesterday's SCG. And it placed 10th and 12th in the Invitational last weekend and 11th and 14th in the Open last weekend. Not that SCG determines the world meta.

As tournament results from last weekend trickle into TC Decks over the next few days, it will be interesting to see how S&S did in other parts of the world.

Presently, it's looking like S&S came onto the scene in early May, peaked in mid/late May and early June, and is starting to wane. However, this is a small sample size. It could pick back up in July. Atlanta will be telling.

[Koby]

Nope, S&S cannot beat Liliana of the Veil. Discard is another reason why we have such a hard time against Reanimator too. We need practically every single card in our hand to be able to combo off. Take away one card and we're at least one turn slower.

[Water_Wizard]

Okay, I thought you were drawing a comparison between Reanimator and Sneak Attack - haste can escape a Liliana -2.

Going with your approximations from earlier, if Reanimator is 10% of the field, and Sneak and Show and 8%, Pox is 1%?

I'll take my chances...

[Lans89]

There are quite some sideboard choices for the deck... Which cards do you guys prefer the most? I currently run:

2x Through the Breach
2x Pyroclasm
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Blood Moon
3x Echoing Truth

But I see a lot of 4x Leyline of Sanctity, 2x Vendilion Clique and/or 4x Leyline of the Void/Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus in other people's sideboards. I can think of cutting 3x Surgical and 1x Echoing Truth (but I might need 3 as long as this deck is popular and hated) for different graveyard hate. But for Leyline of Sancity I could only cut the Blood Moons + something, while I really like Blood Moon. It's nice vs RUG, Maverick (fast Karakas) and I know quite some players who don't run basics at all!

[Water_Wizard]

The general consensus is against LoS because there isn't much discard or sac effects (like Liliana or Diabolic Edict) around these days, so the slots are better used on more frequent match-ups.

Your sideboard looks solid. I'm running much the same.

EDIT: I run 4 GY hate - 4 Relics, which I'm not sold on. I switched from Grafdigger's to Relic because I had a 'bad experience' with LftL (although Aggro Loam is that not common). However, Relic requires 2 mana and can be Pithing Needled. I may switch back to Cage, because we often need to use the graveyard hate before our next turn, which can be tough unless we have a Lotus Petal.

[Esper3k]

I run 5x graveyard hate cards, but that's mainly because I absolutely hate losing to graveyard based decks for some reason (probably because they're even cheatier than we are!).

[Koby]

I run 5x graveyard hate cards, but that's mainly because I absolutely hate losing to graveyard based decks for some reason (probably because they're even cheatier than we are!).

I would run 3 Crypt 2 Surgical in that case. They're all good against Reanimator and Dredge, while still having game against Loam and combo (Surgical).

[Esper3k]

I would run 3 Crypt 2 Surgical in that case. They're all good against Reanimator and Dredge, while still having game against Loam and combo (Surgical).

I've been doing a 3x Cage / 2x Relic split so far, which has seemed ok to me so far.

I haven't been horribly worried about Loam mainly because I feel like we should have the game won by the time they start durdling with Loam, imo.

[Deez_Naughts]

Here is my current board:

4x Grafdiggers Cage
3x Blood Moon
3x Echoing Truth
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Through The Breach

I belive this to be the most optimal configuration against the current meta.

I'm playing in a large event this weekend, and will probably include one MD Wipe Away, so as to not insta-scoop to a game 1 Ensaring Bridge/Humility, which are seeing more and more play.

I'm also a strong proponent of 4x Spell Pierce main, as this card is bonkers right now. My counter suite consists of 4x Pierce, 4x FoW, 3x Misdirection. I'm also running the 9x cantrip package.

[Esper3k]

Here's what I've been running:

3x Vendilion Clique (there's almost no hate they can bring in that this card doesn't deal with)
2x Wipe Away
3x Pyroclasm (Testing this for the Maverick matchup. Doubles as Elves hate if that deck sees an uptick)
2x Through the Breach
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus

[Norm]

Here's what I've been running:

3x Vendilion Clique (there's almost no hate they can bring in that this card doesn't deal with)
2x Wipe Away
3x Pyroclasm (Testing this for the Maverick matchup. Doubles as Elves hate if that deck sees an uptick)
2x Through the Breach
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus

I've run Firespout and Volcanic Fallout over the last year and a half but haven't tried Pyroclasm, how do you like it? I would imagine that Thalia makes it a much better choice in our current meta.

[Esper3k]

I've run Firespout and Volcanic Fallout over the last year and a half but haven't tried Pyroclasm, how do you like it? I would imagine that Thalia makes it a much better choice in our current meta.

It's been alright, we're going to do heavier testing tonight with it vs Maverick.

You hit it on the head on why it should be better against Maverick in theory. From our testing, a lot of games to Maverick are lost when they have T2 Thalia out while holding a Knight in their hand (to protect from Show & Tell). That T2 Thalia just seems to buy them just enough time to get there against you. Much of the time, Maverick will also preemptively GSZ for a Pridemage or Teeg to back up Thalia, so you can oftentimes really get them with Pyroclasm.

In our sideboarding, Mother of Runes actually came out a lot over StP since you still have to have an answer to Grisselbrand (and the cards + 7 life may not do S&S enough to recover if you've been putting damage on them).

Playing against Maverick, I found that even a T2-3 Grisselbrand isn't enough against them. You can pretty much count on them having Knight and while you can still draw cards in response to Karakas, you're down a bunch of life and a Wasteland just destroys your chances of recovering since you don't have enough of a manabase to make use of all the cards you have.

[Norm]

It's been alright, we're going to do heavier testing tonight with it vs Maverick.

You hit it on the head on why it should be better against Maverick in theory. From our testing, a lot of games to Maverick are lost when they have T2 Thalia out while holding a Knight in their hand (to protect from Show & Tell). That T2 Thalia just seems to buy them just enough time to get there against you. Much of the time, Maverick will also preemptively GSZ for a Pridemage or Teeg to back up Thalia, so you can oftentimes really get them with Pyroclasm.

In our sideboarding, Mother of Runes actually came out a lot over StP since you still have to have an answer to Grisselbrand (and the cards + 7 life may not do S&S enough to recover if you've been putting damage on them).

Playing against Maverick, I found that even a T2-3 Grisselbrand isn't enough against them. You can pretty much count on them having Knight and while you can still draw cards in response to Karakas, you're down a bunch of life and a Wasteland just destroys your chances of recovering since you don't have enough of a manabase to make use of all the cards you have.

As someone who plays against Maverick frequently, I agree with the majority of your points. I also feel as though Blood Moon is a fantastic card to bring in against Maverick. Perhaps the appropriate boarding approach would be 3 Blood Moon and 2 Pyroclasm. This takes care of early Pridemages, and alternate sources of producing colored mana.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your testing, please share them when you have a chance. Thanks!

[Esper3k]

As someone who plays against Maverick frequently, I agree with the majority of your points. I also feel as though Blood Moon is a fantastic card to bring in against Maverick. Perhaps the appropriate boarding approach would be 3 Blood Moon and 2 Pyroclasm. This takes care of early Pridemages, and alternate sources of producing colored mana.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your testing, please share them when you have a chance. Thanks!

I'm already playing Blood Moon main (I really wanted to hedge my G1 chances against RUG & Maverick), which is why I wasn't mentioning boarding it in.

Blood Moon alone has been great against both RUG and Maverick. We just wanted to make the Maverick matchup even better, thus the Pyroclasm testing. If it pans out well, it'll also be a good card to have if there's an uptick in the number of Elf decks running around.

We're running very light on extra countermagic with this build (no Spell Pierces and we finally cut the Flusterstorms from the board). The idea is that in matchups where we'd want extra countermagic, Vendilion Clique works just fine (you EOT Clique them). Most blue decks will be bringing in countermagic that doesn't stop it (Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm) and of course, it gives you valuable information on what your opponent has.

Again, I'm really digging Clique right now because of people packing permanent based hate to drop off of your Show & Tell. When they're holding it in their hand giggling to themselves, your EOT Clique is pretty dream crushing.

[Koby]

Tested against Maverick last nite:

On the play:
3-2, losing every game I played Show & Tell

On the draw:
1-4, losing to Thalia and Teeg, not necessarily in the same games

Sideboard:
1-2 before the shop closed down

Like Esper mentioned, an early Griselbrand doesn't even matter most of the time. I'm starting to think that even with Blood Moon, it's not enough since Maverick can ignore it half the time with basics/Hierarch. In that regard, I'd rather play Pithing Needle which does two things:

1. Shuts down Karakas until they deal with it.
2. Costs :1:. This is the most important point, since we ultimately don't have that much time to durdle when we have a great Show & Tell hand.

The idea is that we want to make Show & Tell a threat rather than a liability. It also allows us to do it on the same turn.

I still like the Pyroclasm idea too, as it kills Revoker, Thalia, Teeg, and Pridemage in anticipation of the Sneak Attack plan. I'm going to test new sideboard tonite.

4 Pithing Needle
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Through the Breach
2 REB/pyroblast
2 E-truth
1 Wipe away

[rxavage]

@Koby

Do you side in the cages against Mav?

[Esper3k]

@Koby: I think generally against Maverick, we have time to dig for either a Blood Moon or Sneak Attack. Generally speaking, they don't put a huge amount of pressure on us (because smart players will hold Knights in their hand in anticipation of Show & Tell rather than risk it being countered). As long as we don't play Show & Tell to accelerate their clock, we should have time to find something to make our Show & Tell live. From my experience, even a T4 or so Show & Tell into Grisselbrand, with no Blood Moon or Sneak Attack, is still very winnable. If they Karakas him, usually a draw 7 can be enough for you to win the next turn even if they Wasteland you.

I just find we lose the games most when we Show & Tell on T1-2 against Maverick since they have the capacity to set us back on mana while simultaneously getting a faster clock + dealing with our threat.

Regarding Grafdigger's Cage: I don't really like it vs Maverick. It would be ok I guess, but I think we just have so many better things to bring in from the board. Also, we don't want to board out too many cards and dilute the combo.

We've been boarding out:
-3 Misdirection
-1 Intuition (just in case of Extractions, we only play 1 Intuition main)

We'll be testing tonight:
+3 Pyroclasm
+1 Vendilion Clique / Wipe Away

Btw, normally against decks where Show & Tell is a liability, common sideboarding strategy is to board in Through the Breach as well. My experience has shown that this is actually a bad call against Maverick due to Thalia & Teeg both making it pretty difficult for you to use TtB. Ideally, you just want to drop a Blood Moon then S&T or just S&T into Sneak Attack.

[Koby]

@Koby

Do you side in the cages against Mav?

-3 Flusterstorm
-2 Misdirection
+3 Blood Moon
+2 Through the Breach

Blood Moon was too slow, GSZ never mattered post-board as I was usually already dead on board. Effectively, S&T was neutered from Knight and/or Karakas. Having a proactive Needle helps against that and fits the curve better than Blood Moon. I'm dubious as to whether Blood Moon is all that effective since we only bring in against 3c control (already positive matchup thanks to Flusterstorm) and Maverick. Needle is better against the latter.

With the new board:
-3 Flusterstorm
-1 Misdirection (leaving one as protection vs spot removal)
+4 Needle

[Esper3k]

I've liked Blood Moon both against RUG and Maverick, myself.

Against RUG: Unless they have a super fast start (ie, T1 Delver, T2 Tarmogoyf on the play), you can just lead off with a Blood Moon and use it to force counters out of their hand. If you have time, playing around Daze / Spell Pierce with it also means that those two spells get shut off when you play your Show & Tell / Sneak Attack next turn.

Against Maverick: All we care about is Karakas really, right? While Pithing Needle is stronger because of its cheaper casting cost, having Blood Moon in the main has let me steal some games because Maverick players tend not to fetch basics anymore when they figure out you're on combo so the Blood Moon can actually do bad things to them. Also, you can catch them if they do something like Savannah->GSZ->Dryad Arbor. Oops, no basics!

Just my $0.02.

[Esper3k]

Btw, my maindeck is a fairly standard one (3 Islands, 1 Mountain, 5 Sol Lands) with my flex slots as:

3x Misdirection
3x Blood Moon
2x Preordain
1x Intuition

[rxavage]

I've been going the 3 Blood Moon & 2 Through the Breach route myself. Blood Moon hasn't been performing like it was for me and although I don't face alot of maverick ATM I think the Needles are slightly more versatile.

[Water_Wizard]

If Maverick is a problem (and to a lesser extent, Karakas and Jace from UW), it's time to bring in Progenitus from the board.

There were some decks doing this a few weeks ago. I posted about it. Koby, I'm curious if you switch your Needles with Progenitus if that doesn't give you a better M/U vs. Maverick.

[Norm]

If Maverick is a problem (and to a lesser extent, Karakas and Jace from UW), it's time to bring in Progenitus from the board.

There were some decks doing this a few weeks ago. I posted about it. Koby, I'm curious if you switch your Needles with Progenitus if that doesn't give you a better M/U vs. Maverick.

What would you bring out for these?

[Atog]

Koby: what's your maindeck is looking now? You are playing maindeck flusterstorms so are you playing them in Spell pierce's place?

Others:

Have you played against merfolk recently? Have you worried about matchup, that new lord is going to push more players to that direction? Obviously sideboard REBs are great, but some are playing maindeck Chalice of the void, so that shutsdown easily that opinion. Sideboard pyroclasm should help if they don't get too many lords throught cavern of souls / vial.

[Water_Wizard]

What would you bring out for these?

Flusterstorms, Misdirections, Intuition, maybe 1-2 Griselbrand, depending on what you run and what you want to bring in.

Given Koby's swaps above, just replace 'Pithing Needle' with 'Progenitus' and that's the best configuration for his list.

The idea behind Progenitus is that it keeps Show and Tell as a live card. A turn 2/3 Show and Tell -> Progenitus means you are going to win the game 90% of the time. Progenitus is also proactive, vs. reactive.

[Koby]

I am still debating the merits of Progenitus vs Needle, but either fit the bill of proactive. Problem with the former is that I never feel like I would be boarding out either Emrakul or Griselbrand in either matchup to make room for him - maybe -2 Griselbrand +4 Progeny -2 Intuition... That's the line that stumps me.

Bold statement time:
Ponder is the best card in the deck.

Discuss.