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rxavage
06-27-2012, 05:25 PM
Ponder being the best card in the deck is situational. When you're digging for that last piece of the combo it has no rival. The only situation I can think of where Ponder isn't the best choice is when I have the combo but lack protection, Brainstorm is superior here. On another note, I don't think the deck could function without Sneak Attack.

Water_Wizard
06-27-2012, 05:43 PM
I am still debating the merits of Progenitus vs Needle, but either fit the bill of proactive. Problem with the former is that I never feel like I would be boarding out either Emrakul or Griselbrand in either matchup to make room for him - maybe -2 Griselbrand +4 Progeny -2 Intuition... That's the line that stumps me.

You wouldn't be bringing in both Needle and Progen. And Needle is proactive? I guess proactive in the sense that you play it proactively to stop a threat. Maybe I chose my words poorly and should have said 'offensive' vs. 'defensive'. Drop a Progenitus = win the game. Drop a Needle = don't lose the game.

The one big issue I see with Needle is that it only stops 1 threat. Karakas, Maze of Ith (against GB), Knight of the Reliquary, Qasali Pridemage, which one do you choose?

A positive for Needle is that it has a large variety of applications, beyond just the Maverick mu. It shines vs. PW's, SDT, etc.



Bold statement time: (it just seemed right to bold that)
Ponder is the best card in the deck.

Discuss.

What do we hope to gain from this discussion?

We can't run more than 4 and we're not going to run less than 4. Yes, it's a good card. Yes, it's a staple in the deck. Situationally, can it be the best card? Yes. But so can Griselbrand, Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Force of Will, Lotus Petal, etc.

menace13
06-27-2012, 05:50 PM
What do we hope to gain from this discussion?

We can't run more than 4 and we're not going to run less than 4. Yes, it's a good card. Yes, it's a staple in the deck. Situationally, can it be the best card? Yes. But so can Griselbrand, Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Force of Will, Lotus Petal, etc.

0o 9+ cantrips is what he is referring to. Anyway.

Sensei Top is a good card and something worth looking into. It is insane in the mirror which will go many turns and out performing the one shot filter spells. Maybe as a 2 of.

Esper3k
06-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Against Maverick, Needle is getting dropped on Karakas first, no questions.

Everything else pretty trivial to deal with.

Water_Wizard
06-27-2012, 06:00 PM
0o 9+ cantrips is what he is referring to. Anyway.


Thank you. Isn't it universally agreed upon that this deck (and most decks) first run 4 Brainstorm, then 4 Ponder, then X Preordain?

The only question in this deck is whether you run Preordain, Intuition, or both?

Personally, I run 2 Preordain / 0 Intuition and 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder.

Regarding, SDT, have you tested this? What would you run it in place of?

Thanks.

rxavage
06-27-2012, 06:07 PM
Water Wizard brings up a good point and one I've been wrestling with myself. Running Progenitus has its merits. I've contemplated running 3/3/3. I really wish I had more time to test.

Water_Wizard
06-27-2012, 06:16 PM
Progenitus is a threat with a built in Pithing Needle.

It.... just.... makes....




sense.


Not to mention the slight surprise factor in the current meta.

"Sure, I'll let your Show and Tell resolve. I have a KotR in hand. (versus Bant)."

menace13
06-27-2012, 06:22 PM
Thank you. Isn't it universally agreed upon that this deck (and most decks) first run 4 Brainstorm, then 4 Ponder, then X Preordain?

The only question in this deck is whether you run Preordain, Intuition, or both?

Personally, I run 2 Preordain / 0 Intuition and 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder.

Regarding, SDT, have you tested this? What would you run it in place of?

Thanks.
Yes and I have even played against and lost to it in a top 8. The list was piloted by Kram7 who just top 8'd the recent BOM with Maverick. http://mtgstats.com/Tournament.aspx?TournamentID=4609

I have played Preordain over Ponder in a few events and it performed reasonably well. The Tops go in for the 9th and 10th cantrip , in place of the 19th land, or the Intuitions.

Water_Wizard
06-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Water Wizard brings up a good point and one I've been wrestling with myself. Running Progenitus has its merits. I've contemplated running 3/3/3. I really wish I had more time to test.

I would still bring Progenitus in from the 'board (unless you are looking to up the threat count) and run 4/4 Emrakul/Griselbrand main-deck.

Grisel and Emrakul shine in most match-ups and are the 'go to guys.'

@ Menace - thanks

Esper3k
06-27-2012, 11:57 PM
Did some testing tonight with Blood Moon main still.

Against Maverick post board, the 3 Pyroclams were pretty amazing. Maverick by its nature has to poop out a bunch of small creatures both to disrupt you and to put a clock on you. Wiping out a Thalia, Pridemage, and Dryad Arbor all at once was backbreaking.

The next set of testing we did was against a RUG deck that was as nastily boarded as one could feasibly expect to see (4x FoW, Daze, Stifle, Pierce, REB, 2x Gilded Drake).

Man, that matchup was bad! It is interesting since it feels like we're pretty favorable G1, but all the hate from the board was pretty nasty.

Testing now with Cliques main and we're looking to test Defense Grid in the board next.

Water_Wizard
06-28-2012, 12:51 AM
@ Esper

Thanks for sharing! I bet the Pyroclasm packs a nice little surprise factor as well.

Keep us posted on Defense Grid :)

csy
06-28-2012, 01:12 AM
Did some testing tonight with Blood Moon main still.

Against Maverick post board, the 3 Pyroclams were pretty amazing. Maverick by its nature has to poop out a bunch of small creatures both to disrupt you and to put a clock on you. Wiping out a Thalia, Pridemage, and Dryad Arbor all at once was backbreaking.

The next set of testing we did was against a RUG deck that was as nastily boarded as one could feasibly expect to see (4x FoW, Daze, Stifle, Pierce, REB, 2x Gilded Drake).

Man, that matchup was bad! It is interesting since it feels like we're pretty favorable G1, but all the hate from the board was pretty nasty.

Testing now with Cliques main and we're looking to test Defense Grid in the board next.

defense grid just sounds bad. Also against decks that you can assume will have drake you should really wait for your sneak attack to show and tell anything. And if you REALLY expect it, through the breach on the back of blood moon stalling works great.

Deez_Naughts
06-28-2012, 09:42 AM
I am still debating the merits of Progenitus vs Needle, but either fit the bill of proactive. Problem with the former is that I never feel like I would be boarding out either Emrakul or Griselbrand in either matchup to make room for him - maybe -2 Griselbrand +4 Progeny -2 Intuition... That's the line that stumps me.

Bold statement time:
Ponder is the best card in the deck.

Discuss.

I'm really not understanding where this thread is going; Needle, Prog, Top, MD Moon.....Defence Grid..

Maverick is only beating you game one with an aggressive Thalia/Teeg draw while you keep a U-durdle hand, or, with a pressured Kinght/Karakas draw/show.

Simply playing tight by countering key spells, and relying on Sneak with double R, makes this match a good one. I have seen so many instances in testing and at events where people get a magic hard on when they have a turn one or two Show (and knowing they were playing Maverick) and want to bust that nut right away without thinking.

Post board, the Moon/Pyroclasm/Breach package, wrecks them.

Where as, Needle does not stop their board development, they dont care about Needle, they care about having their mana shut off and losing board position.

Prog is another pro/con option, sure he dodges Karakas... but so what? He is horrible with Sneak/Breach, and against every other match up. In addition he takes up valuable SB slots. He is also strictly inferior to Em/Grisel in the main.

Moreover, it's Emrakul that is great against Maverick, unless your gameplan is impatiently running out a Show ASAP. I will say this, Daze is very good in this match up, and should probably be run if your meta is Mav heavy.

As for RUG, this match up is favorable as well. Our counter suite is more effective, and theirs is predictable. If you can't play around Daze and Pierce, I'm not sure what to say. Their cards are low impact, and timing becomes critical in this match; your only losing to a nut Delver Goyf double hard counter draw. Post board Moon and REB make things especially tricky for them, as they now have 11 must counter spells to contend with.

Cards I think have the most diverse SB impact:

-Blood Moon
-Pyroclasm
-REB
-Cage/Relic
-Breach
-Echoing Truth

P.S

Ponder is the best card in the deck, yes.

Esper3k
06-28-2012, 10:10 AM
Regarding Maverick: If you're playing G1, you can't always count on having Sneak Attack. A lot of times, you get a hand that's say Show & Tell, FoW, lands, cantrips. Those types of hands can be pretty bad against Maverick if they're holding the Knight (which they always have).

Post board, I still contend that Through the Breach is pretty bad. Much of their deck (Thalia, Teeg) makes it difficult for us to cast as well as by that point, a Through the Breach is not a guarantee win (they often have enough permanents to survive an Emrakul hit or your life is low enough that a Grisselbrand activation can kill you on their turn).

To me, the matchup revolves first around Karakas and second around Thalia + Teeg. Whether you play Blood Moon or Pithing Needle, both of those cards are ones we play to be geared at fighting Karakas and making our Show & Tells live. Pyroclasm is to buy us time against the Thalia + Teeg swarm.

Regarding RUG: I disagree that our counter suite is more effective. Playing against the maximally (in theory) boarded RUG deck last night (which became essentially a deck of just countermagic and creatures), RUG will oftentimes drop a T1 creature or T2 Goyf and sit on countermagic for the rest of the game. The heavy Stifle builds are actually problematic because hurting our manabase makes their Dazes & Spell Pierces live. Spell Pierce in particular effectively becomes a hard counter unless we can find multiple Sol lands without getting Wastelanded.

I actually find our countermagic suite much less efficient than theirs - ours almost always 2 for 1's ourselves while they pretty much 1 for 1 us due to the disruption on our manabase.

I've actually liked Clique more than Blood Moon in this matchup because it's essentially a must-counter for them. If they don't, you're probably going to pop it in, strip them of a counterspell / Gilded Drake and trade with a Delver.

Togores
06-28-2012, 12:31 PM
I didnt even know why u plople are still plaing pyroclasm over volcanic fallout, when fallout is even better...
i have been plaing fallout in side for mere than a year, it wrecks merfolks, goblins, gw, pacekeeper, and delver+vendion and can kill a planeswalker like i did 2 times already (liliana and jace).

killing pacekkeper at instant spell and dont being able to be countered makes the card a lot worth.

Esper3k
06-28-2012, 12:38 PM
Because we're bringing it in against decks that tend not to run countermagic? Having it be more playable under Thalia as well as not costing RR against decks that run Wasteland is also a reason too...

Togores
06-28-2012, 12:41 PM
yes, but against merfolks and goblins its worser, becuase they can still kill u with lands+lords and with goblins+haste.
and merfolks can counter it, from my experience its faaaaar better than pyroclasm.^^

Esper3k
06-28-2012, 12:59 PM
yes, but against merfolks and goblins its worser, becuase they can still kill u with lands+lords and with goblins+haste.
and merfolks can counter it, from my experience its faaaaar better than pyroclasm.^^

Maverick and Elves are more common matchups these days though and the cheaper cost of Pyroclasm is pretty key there.

csy
06-28-2012, 01:53 PM
in a meta with merfolk and goblins Sneak should be doing fine. I have only had problems with goblins when they get to 'go off' faster than me. for the most part elves and gobs are easy matchups

Esper3k
06-28-2012, 02:18 PM
defense grid just sounds bad. Also against decks that you can assume will have drake you should really wait for your sneak attack to show and tell anything. And if you REALLY expect it, through the breach on the back of blood moon stalling works great.

Defense Grid, in theory, should only come in against decks that are doing a combination of molesting your mana base backed up with cheap countermagic (ie, tempo decks).

Against something like pure control, you shouldn't need it because you should be able to develop your mana and play through Spell Pierce.

Honestly, I think most of the time we simply can't wait around and try to play around Gilded Drake unless you're expecting like 4x from the board. Statistically, they won't have it most of the time and if you wait too long, that increases their odds of drawing it / more countermagic.

I think Through the Breach is way too slow against tempo decks (RUG) to really be considered. First you have to get to 5 mana and then you have to hope they don't have a Daze or Spell Pierce. Pretty unlikely for that to happen, imo.

rxavage
06-28-2012, 11:08 PM
Went 4-0, 8-2 for games tonight. Nothing to to brag about just burn, MBC heavy discard, affinity prison deck, and punishing mav.

menace13
06-29-2012, 01:21 AM
Went 4-0, 8-2 for games tonight. Nothing to to brag about just burn, MBC heavy discard, affinity prison deck, and punishing mav.

How did you beat MBC and Affinity Prison? Was MBC on Therapy, Seize, Hymn, Lilianna? No Pox cards I assume? What was in Prison Affinity? Golem, Wire, Thorns?

dunk
06-29-2012, 07:45 AM
yes, but against merfolks and goblins its worser, becuase they can still kill u with lands+lords and with goblins+haste.
and merfolks can counter it, from my experience its faaaaar better than pyroclasm.^^

Troll? 3 mana is infinite more than 2, and 2 damage doesn't even kills the folks. Actually not even Firespout hits them unless something seriously goes wrong on the merfolk side. Pulling of RR vs. wasteland decks also sounds unlikely and then we even deal 2 damage to ourself. So I can just ask again, are you a troll? Or an incarnation of the WORSTCLAW?

rxavage
06-29-2012, 08:47 AM
How did you beat MBC and Affinity Prison? Was MBC on Therapy, Seize, Hymn, Lilianna? No Pox cards I assume? What was in Prison Affinity? Golem, Wire, Thorns?

I did what the deck does and dropped bombs early, the deck was very kind to me last night except for one game where I lost with 2 S&T and 3 SA in hand without ever seeing a beast. I actually lost one games with a Griselbrand out to a really aggressive Affinity draw backed with spheres and Jitte. The MBC list I got to see very little of cause I dropped Ema turn 2 both games.


Good Luck to those playing in the Gp. I want to see Griselbrand smash face.

emrakultenticles
06-29-2012, 07:48 PM
I know this is more or less a noob question in regards to the stack but here it is:
Q: after activating griselbrands draw ability your opponent response with a path to exile, for this scenario say you only have 10 life and no answers in hand. would you still get the 7 cards even though path exiled griselbrand?

I have searched for this answer and all I can find if someone swords/path you can respond by drawing 7-14 cards pull a answer and deal with it, but if you was to activate the ability and then they sword/path would you get the cards?

this came up at a friends house and we searched for ever online for a answer came out empty handed.

if I am correct griselbrands trigger would go on the stack you would loose 7 life, then Path to exile would be placed on the stack.
path to exile would resolve exiling griselbrand and you would draw 7 cards. just because they exiled/killed griselbrand his ability would still be on the stack correct? or am I wrong...
I hate asking these questions... >.<
thanks for your help, if anything this will be quick reference should the issue come up again.

menace13
06-29-2012, 07:53 PM
I know this is more or less a noob question in regards to the stack but here it is:
Q: after activating griselbrands draw ability your opponent response with a path to exile, for this scenario say you only have 10 life and no answers in hand. would you still get the 7 cards even though path exiled griselbrand?

I have searched for this answer and all I can find if someone swords/path you can respond by drawing 7-14 cards pull a answer and deal with it, but if you was to activate the ability and then they sword/path would you get the cards?

this came up at a friends house and we searched for ever online for a answer came out empty handed.

if I am correct griselbrands trigger would go on the stack you would loose 7 life, then Path to exile would be placed on the stack.
path to exile would resolve exiling griselbrand and you would draw 7 cards. just because they exiled/killed griselbrand his ability would still be on the stack correct? or am I wrong...
I hate asking these questions... >.<
thanks for your help, if anything this will be quick reference should the issue come up again.

He will still deliver your cards.

Deez_Naughts
06-29-2012, 08:01 PM
I know this is more or less a noob question in regards to the stack but here it is:
Q: after activating griselbrands draw ability your opponent response with a path to exile, for this scenario say you only have 10 life and no answers in hand. would you still get the 7 cards even though path exiled griselbrand?

I have searched for this answer and all I can find if someone swords/path you can respond by drawing 7-14 cards pull a answer and deal with it, but if you was to activate the ability and then they sword/path would you get the cards?

this came up at a friends house and we searched for ever online for a answer came out empty handed.

if I am correct griselbrands trigger would go on the stack you would loose 7 life, then Path to exile would be placed on the stack.
path to exile would resolve exiling griselbrand and you would draw 7 cards. just because they exiled/killed griselbrand his ability would still be on the stack correct? or am I wrong...
I hate asking these questions... >.<
thanks for your help, if anything this will be quick reference should the issue come up again.

Once a Griselbrand activation is placed on the stack, it will resolve regardless of whether Griselbrand remains in play.

rxavage
06-29-2012, 08:47 PM
The StP/PtE doesn't have to resolve after drawing your cards, you can counter their spell if you draw into something relevant.

emrakultenticles
06-29-2012, 09:13 PM
thanks guys, I was about 90% I was correct but its always good to be 100%

Water_Wizard
06-29-2012, 10:44 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but your only option in that situation is to draw 7 more cards or let Griselbrand exile.

So that stack is:
(top)
Path to Exile
draw 7 activated ability
(bottom)

You are at 10 life and you do not have an answer in hand. As mentioned above, you can either let the PtE resolve (Griselbrand is exiled and you fetch your basic land), or you can pay another 7 life and put another draw 7 on the stack. If you choose the latter option, you would be at 3 life and that stack would look like this:
(top)
draw 7
PtE
draw 7
(bottom)

Assuming you go with the 2nd route, after your 2nd draw 7, your opponent would get a chance to respond. Assuming no responses, you would draw your 7 and then be able to respond to the PtE on the stack.

The correct decision is game-state dependent. Did you win your match?

Also, in deciding whether to re-activate Grisel, it's important to remember that Force of Will costs life, as does Ancient Tomb and fetchlands.

emrakultenticles
06-29-2012, 11:13 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but your only option in that situation is to draw 7 more cards or let Griselbrand exile.

So that stack is:
(top)
Path to Exile
draw 7 activated ability
(bottom)

You are at 10 life and you do not have an answer in hand. As mentioned above, you can either let the PtE resolve (Griselbrand is exiled and you fetch your basic land), or you can pay another 7 life and put another draw 7 on the stack. If you choose the latter option, you would be at 3 life and that stack would look like this:
(top)
draw 7
PtE
draw 7
(bottom)

Assuming you go with the 2nd route, after your 2nd draw 7, your opponent would get a chance to respond. Assuming no responses, you would draw your 7 and then be able to respond to the PtE on the stack.

The correct decision is game-state dependent. Did you win your match?

Also, in deciding whether to re-activate Grisel, it's important to remember that Force of Will costs life, as does Ancient Tomb and fetchlands.

if your @ 10 life you can only draw 7 off griselbrand a 2nd activation would be suicide.

it was just a casual playtesting game between me and a friend, but I ended up winning even though the issue came up with the stack, I was able to convinced him that even though he removes griselbrand his ability is still on the stack.

sidenote: I wasn't playing sneak show I was playing hypergenisis but I thought I could ask the question here.

Water_Wizard
06-29-2012, 11:46 PM
if your @ 10 life you can only draw 7 off griselbrand a 2nd activation would be suicide.



When you perform any activated ability, everything before the colon is done first, then the item goes on the stack, both players get a chance to respond, and then the action occurs, assuming it is still valid (it hasn't been Stifled or something).

With Griselbrand:

"Pay 7 life: draw seven cards."

The life is paid before the card draw goes on the stack. So when you say:



Q: after activating griselbrands draw ability your opponent response with a path to exile, for this scenario say you only have 10 life and no answers in hand. would you still get the 7 cards even though path exiled griselbrand?



It implies that you still have 10 life after the first activation (i.e. you started with 17 life).

But yes, at 3 life you would be unable to draw 7 cards, as you cannot pay life that you don't have. The only way to really "commit suicide" with Griselbrand is if you are at exactly 7 life.

emrakultenticles
06-30-2012, 01:45 AM
When you perform any activated ability, everything before the colon is done first, then the item goes on the stack, both players get a chance to respond, and then the action occurs, assuming it is still valid (it hasn't been Stifled or something).

With Griselbrand:

"Pay 7 life: draw seven cards."

The life is paid before the card draw goes on the stack. So when you say:



It implies that you still have 10 life after the first activation (i.e. you started with 17 life).

But yes, at 3 life you would be unable to draw 7 cards, as you cannot pay life that you don't have. The only way to really "commit suicide" with Griselbrand is if you are at exactly 7 life.
now I see what your saying, but I was talking about being at 10 life before the first activation. sorry I wasn't clear

Water_Wizard
06-30-2012, 04:37 AM
now I see what your saying, but I was talking about being at 10 life before the first activation. sorry I wasn't clear

No worries. :)

Haakon
06-30-2012, 01:59 PM
Hi everyone

I've noticed some difficulties when playing against miracle control post-sideboard

They usually side out all white cards to board in additional counters or, worse, meddling mages and pithing needles, so they seem a wall for us

How do you sideboard against miracle control and what is the better strategy to win the game?

lsho
06-30-2012, 06:20 PM
How cool was the feature match of Sneak vs. Chapin on Reanimator? ;)

rxavage
06-30-2012, 08:28 PM
Hopefully we get to see Koby in a feature. Good Luck man.

menace13
06-30-2012, 09:52 PM
Hopefully we get to see Koby in a feature. Good Luck man.

He's at 6-2-1 after going 6-0-1, last 2 rounds loses to re-animator and stoneblade and the draw was with re-animator.

rxavage
06-30-2012, 10:27 PM
He's at 6-2-1 after going 6-0-1, last 2 rounds loses to re-animator and stoneblade and the draw was with re-animator.

Ugh that sucks. Well I hope he goes undefeated here on out.

menace13
06-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Koby is in day 2.

Nope he didnt make day 2. 134th was his placing 128 is cutoff

dunk
06-30-2012, 10:34 PM
Ugh that sucks. Well I hope he goes undefeated here on out.

Only 7-2 and better makes it. Pretty sucky outcome after a really good start...

rxavage
06-30-2012, 10:43 PM
Any sourcers make day 2?

JeroenC
07-01-2012, 04:40 AM
Koby is in day 2.

Nope he didnt make day 2. 134th was his placing 128 is cutoff

X-2 is usually the cutoff at a GP, not necessarily position.

Koby
07-01-2012, 09:16 AM
X-2 is usually the cutoff at a GP, not necessarily position.

My tiebreakers going into the last round were 82.5% which is insane! The smaller size of the GP means that there was a possibility that 6-2-1 could make it but it wasnt the case this time.

Deck imploded on me against Stoneblade when i failed to find either cantrips nor additional enablers. I only saw one Sneak Attack in each game.

Against the loss with Reanimator i got turn 2 Grisey'd even though i countered an Entomb. Then game two we both mull to five i keep on fetch, tomb x2 sneak attack and through the breach. I fail to find a fatty before he revives griselbrand. And so it goes.

JDK
07-01-2012, 09:55 AM
X-2 is usually the cutoff at a GP, not necessarily position.


If 799 or fewer players register for the event, all players with an X-2-0 or better record OR the top 64 players—whichever number is greater—will advance to the second day of the event.
If 800 or more players register for the event, all players with an X-2-0 or better record OR the top 128 players—whichever number is greater—will advance to the second day of the event.

Esper3k
07-01-2012, 10:07 AM
My friend playing our build went 5-3 (lost to MUC, RUG, Esper Stoneblade).

Our plan of boarding Defense Grids against RUG worked great. In the match he lost, his opponent even brought in Ancient Grudge (which is normally great for us), but he happened to actually draw them when my friend had Defense Grid out (bah!).

Julian23
07-01-2012, 10:41 AM
Do you bring in Defense Grid because you expect them to board out Spell Snare? Or has it turned out to be overall super strong?

Esper3k
07-01-2012, 11:54 AM
Do you bring in Defense Grid because you expect them to board out Spell Snare? Or has it turned out to be overall super strong?

Most RUG lists have cut Spell Snare entirely for Spell Pierces main these days.

In our testing, post board (especially when they bring in all those REBs), it can be hard to fight through their countermagic.

So, we stole a card from some High Tide lists and turned to Defense Grid. If you resolve it, it makes it very difficult for them to use multiple (if any) counterspells on our business spells. Since we don't really care about countering their spells on their turn, it's a pretty one sided effect.

Deez_Naughts
07-01-2012, 06:55 PM
After having a rough weekend at a large local event, and seeing the results of the GP, my previous ascertion was spot on; the cat is certainly out of the bag for this archetype.

IMO, Daze is now an absolute must main deck. Removing it, and relying on spell pierce makes this deck a turn slower, and that is simply not where we need to be.

Being able to turn 1 ponder with protection, and pushing through an early Sneak/Show, is absolutely critical.

We also need LoS, I'm now 100% sure of that, and regret cutting them for this recent event.

rxavage
07-01-2012, 07:07 PM
After having a rough weekend at a large local event, and seeing the results of the GP, my previous ascertion was spot on; the cat is certainly out of the bag for this archetype.

IMO, Daze is now an absolute must main deck. Removing it, and relying on spell pierce makes this deck a turn slower, and that is simply not where we need to be.

Being able to turn 1 ponder with protection, and pushing through an early Sneak/Show, is absolutely critical.

We also need LoS, I'm now 100% sure of that, and regret cutting them for this recent event.


I already switched out my misdirections for dazes this past Thursday and I didn't miss the misdirections at all. My meta is usually all RUG but I found daze was useful a few times against random.dec moreso than misdirection woudl've been.

Deez_Naughts
07-01-2012, 07:43 PM
I already switched out my misdirections for dazes this past Thursday and I didn't miss the misdirections at all. My meta is usually all RUG but I found daze was useful a few times against random.dec moreso than misdirection woudl've been.

MisD is great, it is even better with Daze...

It acts only as supplemental FoW's, giving you the ability to force key spells through. Any other role is purely a bonus.

rxavage
07-01-2012, 08:44 PM
MisD is great, it is even better with Daze...

It acts only as supplemental FoW's, giving you the ability to force key spells through. Any other role is purely a bonus.

I'm running 3 flusterstorm instead, 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Flusterstorm. I may add a MisD we'll see how I like this suite.

Atog
07-02-2012, 01:07 PM
What does people who has LoS and Flusterstorm in side, take out against tes / ant? I'm sure you take out intuitions. I guess you can also take out misdirections, because they don't are great against their deck other than discard, and not even there always (duress) Althought, misdirecting their Orim's chant or Silence could do something, but not necessary if they go off in response. I'm thinking something like this:

- 2 intuition
- 3 misdirection
- 1 Emrakul

?

Also, what's your sideplan against Belcher, do you side out Show and tells here that they can't drop belcher from that?

lochlan
07-02-2012, 01:50 PM
People who are playing Daze:

Daze/no Daze has been done to death I think? I don't think it really warrants further testing at all, it's just personal preference. Daze makes you pick up a land in the case where it's "faster" than Spell Pierce--i.e. it's not faster at all, because if you get to play it for free you are down a land. We are, unfortunately, not Reanimator. We can not operate on 1-2 lands (aside from Island+Sol Land, natch), and the tempo loss to picking up an Island to Daze is really bad.

And I personally have found that vs. a competent RUG pilot, they will heavily play the control role, basically only putting a clock into play when they have other Islands up to Stifle/Spell Pierce. You have to play around Daze and Spell Pierce (or you're just wasting your cards vs. RUG) , so your mana is tied up with actually playing your combo--thus free spells become absolutely critical. I can see why some people think this means Daze is good...but what can end up happening is you daze their counter, they win the counter war, and now you have to spend more time rebuilding against a deck that can punish your land base with Stifle and Wasteland. Thus, Misdirection becomes really really good. Not only is it a free counter, but it's one that doesn't give you -1 life, which in the RUG match-up is sometimes relevant. You do board out Mis-d a lot, but those are the match-ups you'd board out Daze anyway. Furthermore, Daze gets much worse after a few turns--even against RUG.

If Daze is working well for you, great. I tested extensively with and without Daze and my win percentages increased without it.

Also, Stifle RUG is much much harder for us than no-Stifle RUG. When you add Stifle to RUG, it goes from being a favorable match-up to more-or-less even.

Water_Wizard
07-02-2012, 06:53 PM
We also need LoS, I'm now 100% sure of that, and regret cutting them for this recent event.

Could you elaborate upon this point?

Thank you very much!

Deez_Naughts
07-03-2012, 08:54 PM
Could you elaborate upon this point?

Thank you very much!

Firstly, Re-animator has access to black discard, and the match up is bad enough post board having to rely on the 5cmc plan. Secondly, in larger events, your going to run into allot more hand disruption from non-blue decks who are prepared for this archetype.

4x LoS and 4x Cage/LotV is very much where you want to be right now, and ironically, it always was.

Avez
07-04-2012, 02:10 AM
I'm planning on playing Sneak & Show on Grand Prix Ghent and I would appreciate any feedback you could give me of my current deck, especially the sideboard. I'm certain I'm going to play against Reanimator a lot so there's 2 Gilded Drake on the sideboard, but should there be also Through the Breach?

2x Island
1x Mountain
2x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
3x Volcanic Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn

4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand

4x Sneak Attack

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Misdirection
3x Intuition
2x Spell Pierce

4x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
1x Preordain

4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard
1x Pyroblast
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Shattering Spree
2x Echoing Truth
2x Submerge
2x Gilded Drake
3x Leyline of Sanctity

Esper3k
07-04-2012, 10:40 AM
You'll definitely want to go up to 4x Griselbrand. He's generally safer to drop than Emrakul is.

tsoikkeli
07-04-2012, 01:11 PM
I'm planning on playing Sneak & Show on Grand Prix Ghent and I would appreciate any feedback you could give me of my current deck, especially the sideboard. I'm certain I'm going to play against Reanimator a lot so there's 2 Gilded Drake on the sideboard, but should there be also Through the Breach?

2x Island
1x Mountain
2x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
3x Volcanic Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn

4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand

4x Sneak Attack

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Misdirection
3x Intuition
2x Spell Pierce

4x Ponder
4x Show and Tell
1x Preordain

4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard
1x Pyroblast
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Shattering Spree
2x Echoing Truth
2x Submerge
2x Gilded Drake
3x Leyline of Sanctity

Four Griselbrands is a absolute must. Cut something else. Also Gilded Drakes doesn't seem too be that good tech against Reanimator. They will get Griselbrand online much faster than you and also they won't be bringing in Show and Tell against Show and Tell decks. Gilded Drake is good against you.

I would pile up with gy hate instead. I'm playing four black Leylines and two Surgical Extractions in metas where dredge and reanimator dominate. You can side in the Extractions in other matchups like against Snapcasters decks. If 4-6 pieces is too much you can go with lower numbers by switching to other graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt and such. Just make sure you always play four Leylines if you're playing them.

Through the Breach is okay in matchups where you side out your Show and Tells. Especially if you play Seething Song or two. This is an interesting option if you think you're against lot's of mirror matches. Pithing Needle is a card which I'm also considering to play. It blanks Sensei's Top, Karakas, Pridemage among other crucial things.

Also, I would play more Pyroblasts. They are just great against multiple decks.

Pyroclasm or even Firespout should be considered if Elves, Merfolk or Goblins or other creature decks gains more popularity. Now sweepers are just okay against Maverick and RUG Delver.

I haven't tested Submerge in this deck but I think there shouldn't be room for that. Play Echoing Truth or Wipe Away as your bounce spells.

Just my train of thoughts.

And btw long time reader first time poster. Former 43 Lands player playing Sneak & Show. See you at GP Ghent.

-Tuomas

rxavage
07-06-2012, 12:31 AM
So, I'm going back to 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection, 3 Flusterstorm because I've noticed more decks packing Flusterstorm and Misd is good for taking out 2 copies. I'm really not digging Though the Breach at all, maybe I just need to add Seething songs to the sb. I think I'm going to be toying with the sb alot in the coming weeks, I'll keep y'all posted.

Koby
07-06-2012, 02:39 AM
I am saddened and disappointed I couldn't sneak into Day 2. Sometimes, the deck just gives you lemons and no sugar to turn it into a real game. Ran smooth for 4 rounds then crapped its pants against one of the better matchups (UW Stoneblade) then got outdrawn by Reanimator in round 9. Ugh!

3 Flusterstorm was amazing, except when going long against true control. 5 untapped lands make Flusterstorm look really bad.

NathanS2k
07-06-2012, 03:10 AM
^ Let's go back to Maverick? :tongue:

Avez
07-06-2012, 03:11 AM
Gilded Drake is good against you.

Should the Gilded Drake still be in the sideboard in the case of mirror? In mirror Gilded is better than Through the Breach cause it doesn't eat that many slots in the sideboard. Against Reanimator Gilded Drake could be used to capture opponents Blazing Archon but yeah, maybe Echoing Truth or something else is a better option there.



I would pile up with gy hate instead. I'm playing four black Leylines and two Surgical Extractions in metas where dredge and reanimator dominate. You can side in the Extractions in other matchups like against Snapcasters decks. If 4-6 pieces is too much you can go with lower numbers by switching to other graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt and such. Just make sure you always play four Leylines if you're playing them.

I don't like playing four Leylines for some reason so maybe I go with 3 Tormod's Crypt 2 Surgical Extraction package. Surgical is also great for determining when to combo cause you can see your opponents hand and decide if you go with Show and Tell or Sneak Attack. Also what about Gitaxian Probe in the maindeck, is it any good there?



Pithing Needle is a card which I'm also considering to play. It blanks Sensei's Top, Karakas, Pridemage among other crucial things.

Needle is great but what about Blood Moon? It can really mess up many Legacy decks and it still stops Karakas.


Pyroclasm or even Firespout should be considered if Elves, Merfolk or Goblins or other creature decks gains more popularity.
Maybe Pyroclasm. Hate to lose to a combo elf.



Just my train of thoughts. See you at GP Ghent

Thanks for these, much appreciated! I'm going to be there wearing a black t-shirt with a Charlie Sheens face and text:"Winning" :)

edit.
New sideboard plan:
3 Crafdiggers Cage vs. Reanimator
2 Surgical Extraction vs. Renimator/UR Delver

2 Pyroclasm vs. Elf/Goblin/Affinity
3 Blood Moon / Needle vs. Karakas&Maverick

1 Echoing Truth vs. Esnaring Bridge and others that stop you from attacking
2 Pyroblast vs. everything blue
2 Gilded Drake vs. mirrormatch

rxavage
07-06-2012, 07:52 AM
I am saddened and disappointed I couldn't sneak into Day 2. Sometimes, the deck just gives you lemons and no sugar to turn it into a real game. Ran smooth for 4 rounds then crapped its pants against one of the better matchups (UW Stoneblade) then got outdrawn by Reanimator in round 9. Ugh!

3 Flusterstorm was amazing, except when going long against true control. 5 untapped lands make Flusterstorm look really bad.


I was sorry to here about it, although it happens from time to time it still sucks being one of the better players and losing to your deck. Sometimes I won't even playtest before a big tourney, which is dumb, because I get superstitious and think that I get all my good hands and top decks in testing and then that 10% is the tourney. Anyways, I hope you'll continue contributing to the archetype, I'm sure you'll take down a GP it's only a matter of time.

tsoikkeli
07-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Should the Gilded Drake still be in the sideboard in the case of mirror? In mirror Gilded is better than Through the Breach cause it doesn't eat that many slots in the sideboard. Against Reanimator Gilded Drake could be used to capture opponents Blazing Archon but yeah, maybe Echoing Truth or something else is a better option there.

Gilded Drake is only good against Balzing Archon. If I have understood correctly reanimator is trying to get Griselbrand online as fast as possible and overwhelm you with cards. Getting Blazing Archon first to prevent attacking beefs isn't getting you anywhere. Get Griselbrand and get cards to protect it. In mirror you are facing hasty Emrakuls and Griselbrands which makes your Gilded Drakes look stupid in your hand. I just cannot see how it could be good enough in this deck. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Needle is great but what about Blood Moon? It can really mess up many Legacy decks and it still stops Karakas.


Honestly I dislike Blood Moon a lot. In my opinion it just generates more random wins which drifts you away from you're game plan. Play cards which support your combo or protect it. Against Maverick it's meh if they have any early Hierarchs. This makes you to play counters on Hierarchs which should be protecting your combo. Otherwise Blood Moon becomes dead card. Against RUG they just slam down their clock and just free-counter any relevent combopiece. Depending on first turn Blood Moon (which is highly inprobable) isn't ideal to me. Of course it's good against more controlling decks like BUG so you should keep the option open.

Karakas isn't that big of a deal. Then you just need to find two red sources and activate Sneak Attack twice into attacking Emrakul. Griselbrand helps you find these. I see it problematic only in Maverick MU where they represent decent clock alongside with Karakas.



I don't like playing four Leylines for some reason so maybe I go with 3 Tormod's Crypt 2 Surgical Extraction package. Surgical is also great for determining when to combo cause you can see your opponents hand and decide if you go with Show and Tell or Sneak Attack. Also what about Gitaxian Probe in the maindeck, is it any good there?

Actually I played 3 Gitaxian Probe MD in a local tournment couple weeks ago. It went poorly (2-2-1) but I really liked the Probes. All games were winnable which were lost to random punts. Note to self: play more. If you see protection you can continue to sculpt your hand. I went -2 Intuitions -1 Preordain of the standard list. Didin't miss the Intuitions a second. They are pretty slow and clunky. Probes are easily SB'd to Extractions or something else. Still I'm unsure if I'm going to play Intuitions or not.

tsoikkeli
07-06-2012, 12:53 PM
Creatures with power greater than the number of cards in your hand can't attack.

I don't know if this is worthwhile but all this pondering leads me to an interesting idea. Play couple Ensnaring Bridges in sideboard. Board them in against mirror. You'll play the Bridge and nobody attacks you. Proceed to find Sneak Attack, enough red sources and bunch of fatties. When you get Griselbrand and Emrakul out by winning the legendary rule combat you can attack when you draw bunch of cards. Just be careful with your life total that you can draw enough cards to attack with emrakul. So you need 15 lives assuming you have one card left in hand. It's grindy approach but how can fatties deck win this. I would assume that these decks won't SB in any bounce against you. Bounce is pretty bad against Emrakul and Griselbrand.

BWM
07-09-2012, 06:51 AM
I board Vendilion Clique in the mirror...

lsho
07-09-2012, 04:18 PM
so what's the current SB plan anyway?

8 Leylines
2-3 Through The Breach
2 Bounce
2-3 flex slots ?

The plan seems like more combo protection... so can anyone explain why there are 3 seething songs in Corbett Gray's list from SCG Seattle? I get it, that it's obvi for speed reasons but what to board out and against whom to bring?

What cards does the deck board-out anyway if we bring leylines?

Cheers

Koby
07-09-2012, 04:55 PM
I wouldn't categorize the sideboard like that at all.

It's likely closer to this:

4 graveyard hate
2-3 Through the Breach
2-3 bounce spells
5-7 flex slots

White leyline isn't that impressive on its own - hence the push towards Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and REB.

rxavage
07-09-2012, 05:07 PM
^^^I agree. The Leylines are garbage and lead to more mulligans and more losses.

lsho
07-09-2012, 05:11 PM
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroblast
2 Clique
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle

sounds like a plan?

I like the leylines but I don't really digg that we have to mull into them. Diversified GY hate in form of Cage + Crypt + Relic seems to be the most painful choice for Dredge (I expect them pretty big in Ghent) and for Reanimator, it ought to be enough too.

Question: Why do people play E-Truth over Wipe Away? I guess Split second could come in handy at times.

Esper3k
07-09-2012, 05:15 PM
I think some people play Echoing Truth over Wipe Away because of the cheaper cost.

Personally, I think the Split Second is really important. We're typically going to bring it in against blue decks that play permanents that wreck us, ie: Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Blazing Archon, etc. so we'll typically need to potentially deal with countermagic to get the bounce spell through.

Also, Leyline of Sanctity sucks. Why? Because my friend was playing it the other day and I was playing Eva Green on a whim :(

rxavage
07-09-2012, 05:20 PM
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroblast
2 Clique
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle

sounds like a plan?

I like the leylines but I don't really digg that we have to mull into them. Diversified GY hate in form of Cage + Crypt + Relic seems to be the most painful choice for Dredge (I expect them pretty big in Ghent) and for Reanimator, it ought to be enough too.

Question: Why do people play E-Truth over Wipe Away? I guess Split second could come in handy at times.

Now that sb looks a hell of alot better and exponentially more practical.

Valtrix
07-09-2012, 05:25 PM
I'd just play 4x Grafdigger's over the other options for graveyard hate. The GY decks have a hell of a time dealing with that thing. They can fight through their GY being exiled once, but they must answer cage in order to do anything. Plus, any answers to cage can answer relic and crypt.

Avez
07-10-2012, 06:49 AM
Wouldn't it be wise to always play at least 3 Cage because then you can Intuition into them?

Koby
07-13-2012, 06:26 PM
My sweet Sneak Attack, I have not forgotten you!

So after the Grand Prix, my tournament performance with the deck is still ridiculously good:

GP record: 3-2-1 matches +3byes, 7-9-1 in games
Overall record: 18-4-1 matches, 36-15-1 games (factoring out ID and Byes)

I think the deck is still well positioned, but has to pay attention to any hate cards. I'm going to be playing this a large tournament next weekend. You may even see me on a live stream ;)

rxavage
07-13-2012, 06:42 PM
My sweet Sneak Attack, I have not forgotten you!

So after the Grand Prix, my tournament performance with the deck is still ridiculously good:

GP record: 3-2-1 matches +3byes, 7-9-1 in games
Overall record: 18-4-1 matches, 36-15-1 games (factoring out ID and Byes)

I think the deck is still well positioned, but has to pay attention to any hate cards. I'm going to be playing this a large tournament next weekend. You may even see me on a live stream ;)


I agree, the deck is still well positioned, I'll be running sneakshow at a decent size tournament in 2 weeks. Good luck with your tourney, don't forget to provide us with a link.

lochlan
07-15-2012, 03:16 PM
What are people's thoughts about the Metalworker match-up? How do we beat them? It seems slightly tricky pre-board (although winnable) and pretty tough post-board. We're faster, but only by about a turn or so.

Casting Show and Tell is a little sketchy pre-board because they have at least one Duplicant that give us trouble if S&Ting a creature, and Sundering Titan really screws up S&T into Sneak Attack. Sometimes they don't have a Duplicant in hand and we get there, but if they do it's a total blow-out. Do we avoid casting S&T pre-board? Or do we only S&T into a creature and hope they don't have the Duplicant? (Or Platinum Emperion, which slows us down because only Emrakul can remove it pre-board if running a build without main-deck bounce--although we do get the Lifelink off Griselbrand.)

Post-board, they probably bring in even more Duplicants and a set of Phyrexian Revoker, so S&T is pretty bad. Misdirection is totally dead against Metalworker. Bounce and Through the Breach for S&T and Mis'd seems like the best plan.

What has everyone else's testing shown? Does anyone have any good tech that is broad enough to deserve the sideboard slot?

Esper3k
07-15-2012, 09:29 PM
MUD is one of those matchups where I feel that since we're playing red, we have plenty of sideboard options if we want it.

If it's a real issue for you, I'd just say board a couple of Shattering Sprees and call it a day?

Game 1 I wouldn't be too afraid of Duplicant - the odds of them having it with no library manipulation is pretty low.

delcameron
07-16-2012, 12:51 AM
Funny you should bring up Shattering Spree. I've been playing Sneak Show for about a month, and my sideboard has three bounce spells; however, the only things I've been bouncing are Pithing Needle and Ensnaring Bridge.

So why not have three Shattering Spree instead? Or are there other significant threats that Echoing Truth hits?

planarvoid
07-16-2012, 01:50 AM
just because for example : peacekeeper, humility... and so on

lochlan
07-16-2012, 02:02 AM
Yes, we are on red (barely...), but I wanted to know if anybody had any strategies not involving warping the sideboard. Artifact hate doesn't seem great in this format, although..


the only things I've been bouncing are Pithing Needle and Ensnaring Bridge

...that's a really interesting point. Now that I think about it, I also frequently bounce either Pithing Needle or Revoker. In fact, that's probably upwards of half the cards I have to bounce in my various match-ups in both testing and tournaments. 1x Shattering Spree along with 2x bounce might not be the worst, although my sideboard plan is pretty tight as-is. Still, something to think about.

Edit: Actually, nevermind. It's still too narrow. I always know to bring in bounce post-board, because it will be useful 99% of the time. Artifact hate post-board could be dead, so it seems risky to waste a slot on it. Improving the Metalworker match-up doesn't seem worth it.

Avez
07-16-2012, 02:37 AM
although my sideboard plan is pretty tight as-is.

Care to share? :)

Also Merfolk seems to rising its head a little and I was thinking should we prepare for this matchup someway? Are 2-3 Pyroblasts enough in the sideboard? Pyroclasms could also work, although they're not that good when there are multiple lords in the table.

lochlan
07-16-2012, 06:07 AM
Care to share? :)

Sure. For whatever it's worth I have tested this extensively (although I still need to test the Merfolk match-up--not sure if/how this will alter my board).

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Defense Grid
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach
2 Karakas


Pretty standard for the most part.

The 2x Karakas seems bad but:
1) it's an easy board-in for 1x Ancient Tomb and 1x Lotus Petal, 2) it bounces Teeg/Thalia, 3) it bounces Griselbrand/Emrakul back to hand post Sneak, and (of course) 4) it blows up a Karakas on the other side of the table (which I always plan for if my opponent is on white), one of the few cards that gives us trouble.

Karakas is also phenomenal in the mirror and has some decent utility against Reanimator, which is a terrible match-up (my plan vs. Reanimator is 10 cards, but has been excellent). I played this board at SCG Seattle (ending 5-3) and 2x Karakas was amazing all day long.

The Defense Grid is for RUG, but also comes in for some other matches (e.g. Stoneblade).

My main deck is the same as this Jonathan Hickerson list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46501) with +1 fetch -1 Volcanic Island. I started with a deck about ~5 cards off and arrived independently at that configuration, I believe it to currently be the optimal main deck.

Stephan/
07-16-2012, 09:27 AM
/.../
The 2x Karakas seems bad but:
1) it's an easy board-in for 1x Ancient Tomb and 1x Lotus Petal, 2) it bounces Teeg/Thalia, 3) it bounces Griselbrand/Emrakul back to hand post Sneak, and (of course) 4) it blows up a Karakas on the other side of the table (which I always plan for if my opponent is on white), one of the few cards that gives us trouble.


^^ I'm playing Karakas in sideboard since a couple of weeks and really don't think that those seem bad. The only point I would disagree is boarding out an Ancient Tomb for them - most times in the control matchups you don't want your Petals and it's nice to have gainst their Karakas, but in tempo oriented matchups or gainst mana denial you want both, Petals and additional lands. I even board them gainst RUG - not only nice to have more lands, but also there is the unrealistic gimmick in making Gilded Drake little bit worse ;)

But anyways - nice to see that some people came to the same results in testing =P

Avez
07-16-2012, 09:58 AM
Karakas is also phenomenal in the mirror and has some decent utility against Reanimator, which is a terrible match-up (my plan vs. Reanimator is 10 cards, but has been excellent). I played this board at SCG Seattle (ending 5-3) and 2x Karakas was amazing all day long.


Haven't even though about Karakas! Now I must also have to have 2 of them in my sideboard :D Thanks!

My main is also just like Jonathan Hickerson list except I have 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Misdirection, 2 Daze and -1 island. BTW Is it too paranoid to play 1 Wipe Away in maindeck in case of Blazing Archon, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility...

lochlan
07-17-2012, 03:36 AM
most times in the control matchups you don't want your Petals

I know that people like to board out Petal, but I never board out more than one. Taking them out really slows us down, which is rarely a good idea. Petal also helps play around Daze and Spell Pierce. Furthermore, reducing the number of available red sources is a little scary.


in tempo oriented matchups...you want both, Petals and additional lands.

I have not tested using non-mana slots for Karakas in the RUG match-up. I get why that seems good, but additional non-colored sources doesn't sound that appealing to me. My feeling is that I'd rather have dig/permission than more colorless lands--yet playing around Daze is critical, and it does have some marginal utility vs. Drake, so I will at least try this out in testing. I do board into extra lands in certain MU's, such as Maverick, just not RUG in particular.

@Avez:

Is it too paranoid to play 1 Wipe Away in maindeck

Whatever wins the tournament is correct. I don't play main-deck bounce--Annihilator 6 is my removal of choice--but it definitely means I'm completely cold to a Blazing Archon pre-board. You should do what works in your regional meta game.

Stephan/
07-17-2012, 08:44 AM
I know that people like to board out Petal, but I never board out more than one. Taking them out really slows us down, which is rarely a good idea. Petal also helps play around Daze and Spell Pierce. Furthermore, reducing the number of available red sources is a little scary.


Well, control decks usually don't play Daze and in my humble opinion additional lands just seem better than Petals to play around Pierce. I just don't believe that you can win with speed gainst counters, discard and additional counters from board (e.g. esper blade), but I think that this might highly depend on your main board - for instance I dropped the Intuitions quite early to play 11 cantrips.
My plan gainst control is not to board out cantrips, but rather to increase the threat densitiy and bring hard counters like Pyroblasts. FoWs/Misdirections (of course Misdir. stay in gainst discard) I take out, because I need cantrips to search through and find business, lands and counters. I don't have the situations when I want to pitch them - I just don't believe that post board gainst control an early Show with FoW backup is the winning goal (not even speaking of Flusterstorm to play gainst).

Zyroc
07-19-2012, 10:45 AM
First timer post, fairly new to SneakandShow. I have a few question/need a few tips about SB. In our meta we have a few Deadguy/BUG decks and i often tend too lose those games.

My SB;
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I take in 4 Leyline of Sanctity against those decks but i really dont like to take a mulligan for digging after then.

Are then any options/cards i can use against those type of decks?

Esper3k
07-19-2012, 10:53 AM
First timer post, fairly new to SneakandShow. I have a few question/need a few tips about SB. In our meta we have a few Deadguy/BUG decks and i often tend too lose those games.

My SB;
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I take in 4 Leyline of Sanctity against those decks but i really dont like to take a mulligan for digging after then.

Are then any options/cards i can use against those type of decks?

If you've got heavy discard in your meta, Leyline of Sanctity is fine because it'll also typically protect you from their Edict effects. Also don't forget Brainstorm is generally one of your best weapons against hand disruption as well.

Suneloon
07-22-2012, 01:10 AM
First timer post, fairly new to SneakandShow. I have a few question/need a few tips about SB. In our meta we have a few Deadguy/BUG decks and i often tend too lose those games.

My SB;
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I take in 4 Leyline of Sanctity against those decks but i really dont like to take a mulligan for digging after then.

Are then any options/cards i can use against those type of decks?

I've been toying around with stuff like Flusterstorm and Senseis top to combat BUG/deadguy etc. Just something you might try out for yourself :)

delcameron
07-22-2012, 11:17 AM
For those of your who don't run Through the Breach in your SBs, what is your plan when you have to side out your Show and Tells? Like against Reanimator, the mirror match, or Twelvepost? (Yes, a few people regularly play Twelvepost here in Montreal...) Are just the four Sneak Attacks enough enablers to consistently land your fattie?

delcameron
07-26-2012, 09:52 PM
And here's another: do you always side out your Intuitions - like 100% always? I know it's to avoid Surgical Extraction, but are there matchups where you are confident they don't have the Surgicals?

rxavage
07-26-2012, 10:02 PM
And here's another: do you always side out your Intuitions - like 100% always? I know it's to avoid Surgical Extraction, but are there matchups where you are confident they don't have the Surgicals?

Most of us don't run Intuition and run Preordain or more counters instead. If you read the thread you will notice this has all been discussed, recently.

lochlan
07-27-2012, 12:21 AM
Most of us don't run Intuition

Hmm. Maybe the people in this thread discussing the deck don't run Intuition, but if you look at lists that have actually achieved decent tournament results (both in the US and Europe), it seems that most people run at least 2x. Such results lead me to believe that at least 1x Intuition is correct. Cantripping is great, but you have to use those cantrips to find your win condition eventually--and Intuition acts as a virtual win con.

I mean, the card is almost an instant-speed Demonic Tutor.

I personally run 9x cantrips and 2x Intution, which has been working out well for me.

Anyway, sub-optimal card choices aside, you didn't answer his question!

@delcameron: Provided that I don't expect Surgical, I do not always side out my Intuitions. In such cases, typically I take out 1x in match-ups where I feel like it's too clunky but I would love to rip it late game.

For example, Reanimator (which does not play Surgical) is a deck that plays permission and is way way faster than me, so getting bogged down with 3-mana tutors is pretty bad--but on the other hand, you're going to have to remove 4x Show and Tell, so having additional win conditions is pretty necessary. It's hard to assemble a combo with only 2x Through the Breach and 4x Sneak Attack--I've found that having that single Intuition can really make a difference in cases like these.

menace13
07-27-2012, 12:53 AM
For those of your who don't run Through the Breach in your SBs, what is your plan when you have to side out your Show and Tells? Like against Reanimator, the mirror match, or Twelvepost? (Yes, a few people regularly play Twelvepost here in Montreal...) Are just the four Sneak Attacks enough enablers to consistently land your fattie?

I havent tested the match up extensively and only played it a few times recently with Sneak. Has anyone jammed games against it repeatedly?
How many cards are brought in? 3-4 Grave hate, If you have Cliques they seem good EOT here, what else goes in?

Taking out all the Show And Tells might not be correct because it enables Sneak Attack earlier. Having the perfect 3 cards of Emrakul, SnT, and Sneak will beat anything Reanimator can Show and Tell out aside the single Archon. You never cast the Show and Tell without the 3 cards or without having hand information.

I almost always go down to 18 lands against anything without Stifle or Wastes by taking out Mountain, and Island if over 19 total. Rarely taking Petals out unless It's the mirror or some control decks where they are bringing in 7+ cards. Even then Petals almost always remain main decked to some number

Griselbrand is a liability against Thoughtseize into Reanimate/Animate Dead. Would cutting down on a few be wrong? Havent tried this.

koba
07-27-2012, 05:15 AM
You take out all show and tells against reanimator. You do not want to go show and tell into sneak attack into griselbrand against a deck that plays 4 griselbrand.

Besides, after sideboarding with 4 cages and 2 through the breach, the matchup is fine, even in your favor I would say. You do not have to rely on drawing the perfect hand. If you have clique and counters, you side that in as well. Some people add bounce, but I do not like that.

As an aside, I would first take out a petal before siding out a land.

To answer the other questions: if you expect a lot of decks where through the breach would be useful (like it is in Montreal, so it seems), play with a few breaches on the side. Relying on just 4 sneak attacks to win is risky.

I do not always take out my two intuitions. First, decks like dredge, sneak show, elves or reanimator do not usually play with extraction, so they are still fine cards, a bit slow perhaps, but possibly better than your other options.

Second, against some other decks like maverick that do play extraction, I sometimes keep in one or two intuitions as well. It depends on whether I have better cards to side in for the cards I want to take out. I definitely want to side out misdirection and flusterstorm in this case and if I only have 7 cards to side in, I keep an intuition. They usually (and rightly so) use their extraction on ponder anyway.

Johanovich
07-28-2012, 06:28 PM
For example, Reanimator (which does not play Surgical) is a deck that plays permission and is way way faster than me, so getting bogged down with 3-mana tutors is pretty bad--but on the other hand, you're going to have to remove 4x Show and Tell, so having additional win conditions is pretty necessary. It's hard to assemble a combo with only 2x Through the Breach and 4x Sneak Attack--I've found that having that single Intuition can really make a difference in cases like these.


You take out all show and tells against reanimator. You do not want to go show and tell into sneak attack into griselbrand against a deck that plays 4 griselbrand.

Besides, after sideboarding with 4 cages and 2 through the breach, the matchup is fine, even in your favor I would say. You do not have to rely on drawing the perfect hand. If you have clique and counters, you side that in as well. Some people add bounce, but I do not like that.

I do not always take out my two intuitions. First, decks like dredge, sneak show, elves or reanimator do not usually play with extraction, so they are still fine cards, a bit slow perhaps, but possibly better than your other options.

I usually play reanimator and I've noticed that some lists do run 2-3 surgicals in the sideboard. Also Against sneaky show I wouldn't say that the game advantage swings to sneaky show games 2 and 3. I usually bring in at least 2 pithing needle, 1 gilded drake and 3 echoing truth. Combined with archon and tyrant/angel of despair this gives a decent amount of outs so I'd rather say that it becomes 50/50 after sideboarding.

lochlan
07-28-2012, 06:58 PM
I usually play reanimator and I've noticed that some lists do run 2-3 surgicals in the sideboard.

I have not seen that and I don't believe it's common at all, but given the card's popularity I will take your word for it that at least one pilot as tried out Extraction. However, between bounce and Pithing Needle, Reanimator doesn't really have the space to bring in graveyard removal vs. Sneaky Show.


Also Against sneaky show I wouldn't say that the game advantage swings to sneaky show games 2 and 3.

Kind of depends on your sideboard plan, no? But 4 Cages are VERY hard for Reanimator to beat. They have probably two or three bounce spells in the entire deck.


I usually bring in at least 2 pithing needle, 1 gilded drake and 3 echoing truth. Combined with archon and tyrant/angel of despair this gives a decent amount of outs so I'd rather say that it becomes 50/50 after sideboarding.

Reanimator playing Gilded Drake is totally worthless against Sneaky Show (as in: zero value) because Sneaky Show WILL board out Show and Tell.

Tyrant is a great card, but you can't get it out against a resolved Cage.

So you will, post board, have exactly three outs to a resolved Cage. Pithing Needle is NOT an out to Cage, it just gimps Sneak Attack almost as much as Cage gimps Reanimator. In that board state (which I have experienced many, many times) it all comes down to who can find their bounce quickest...but Sneaky Show also has TtB, so usually Sneaky Show has more ways to win with a Needle/Cage board state.

Post board 4x cage is unfavorable for Reanimator, but if you're like me and also bring in 2x bounce and 2x Karakas in addition to 4x Cage and 2x TtB then Reanimator typically has a very hard time winning.

Johanovich
07-29-2012, 08:35 AM
I have not seen that and I don't believe it's common at all, but given the card's popularity I will take your word for it that at least one pilot as tried out Extraction. However, between bounce and Pithing Needle, Reanimator doesn't really have the space to bring in graveyard removal vs. Sneaky Show.


Check the reanimator threads here and on salvation. It was first used about half a year ago and some lists still play it now so it isn't the absolute oddity you think it is. Some sideboard examples from the threads:

4 Show and Tell
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Echoing Truth
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Submerge

4 Show and Tell
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
2 Flusterstorm

Then also, my sideboard is the following:
3 show and tell
3 echoing truth
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
2 pithing needle
1 gilded drake
1 inkwell leviathan
1 iona, shield of emeria

So game 2 (assuming you lost game 1) you can start with cage and the only out to that are the maindecked forces and the truths. But game 3 the chances of resolving and sticking a cage are slimmer because of the extra discard and extra counters plus the bounce.
Half of my creatures are also nonlegends thus karakas doesn't always spell game over.

I'm not saying that game 2 and 3 are easy for reanimator against sneak show, but it isn't a walk in the park for sneak as well. Just expect a fight.

rxavage
07-29-2012, 06:28 PM
Looks like Overmaster is legit tech, according to Eli Kassis. When Hollywood mentioned it I thought it was cool but dismissed it, Eli's explanation has convinced me to try it.

lochlan
07-29-2012, 10:48 PM
Check the reanimator threads here and on salvation. It was first used about half a year ago and some lists still play it now so it isn't the absolute oddity you think it is.

I am going by lists that either 1) I have personally played against in tournaments or 2) have performed well and been circulated online. I have no doubts that some people on the internet are putting a popular card in their sideboard, but that does not necessarily reflect the lists I will typically face in a large tournament.

Regardless, if Reanimator is bringing in Surgical vs. Sneaky Show, they are using valuable slots for a reactive card. It's a bad plan that would slow them down (and being faster is what gives them the edge in the first place)--so whether or not Reanimator runs Extraction is irrelevant, they are making a mistake if they bring it in against me


So game 2 (assuming you lost game 1) you can start with cage and the only out to that are the maindecked forces and the truths. But game 3 the chances of resolving and sticking a cage are slimmer because of the extra discard and extra counters plus the bounce.

If you say so. With four Cages I have--in the numerous Reanimator games I have played in both tournaments and at the kitchen table--only not been able to land a cage a handful of times. Obviously Reanimator can hit cards in my hand with discard--but I have brainstorm, too, y'know? (Edit: also I expect to lose G1 so G2 I am almost always on the play--i.e. they don't have time to hit my hand with Discard if my T1 play is Cage.) (Edit 2: I see your point about g3 but with 4x and cantrips it hasn't been an issue for me). There are a lot of factors and possible interactions, but from my testing 4x Cages means it's very easy to consistently resolve it.


Half of my creatures are also nonlegends thus karakas doesn't always spell game over.

OK. But some of your best creatures are Legends, and--perhaps you are the exception?--I have never encountered a Reanimator player who was anything less than shocked when I dropped Karakas. It's not something they assume will be coming. With Eli Kassis' deck tech today this may change, however.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 01:51 AM
Buy Overmaster buy them now. How did we miss this card? It's fantastic. It's like a cycling orims chant for sneakshow! It's better than misdirection because it cycles and does not need to pitch a card. It's good even if you just have sneak attack because they must counter it or die to show and tell. You can also bluff with it earlier and even if they don't counter it, it cycles! It's like a preemptive orims chant. It's freaking awesome. Even against aggro it cycles for 1 mana!

Koby
07-30-2012, 01:57 AM
Buy Overmaster buy them now. How did we miss this card? It's fantastic. It's like a cycling orims chant for sneakshow! It's better than misdirection because it cycles and does not need to pitch a card. It's good even if you just have sneak attack because they must counter it or die to show and tell. You can also bluff with it earlier and even if they don't counter it, it cycles! It's like a preemptive orims chant. It's freaking awesome. Even against aggro it cycles for 1 mana!

Not sure if drunk, or just being sarcastic.

I'm not entirely sold on Overmaster - it helps you beat a matchup that was already heavily favored. Show me a cycling card that soul-crushed Reanimator, or helps beat Karakas; and you'll have my undivided attention.

In other news, Pyroclasm has proved to be good against random.decs. I really liked having access to it against Affinity, which would otherwise has zero cards to board in.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 02:10 AM
As a protection spell its tops. Misdirection isn't great against Reanimator as well. A protection suit of Force, Spell pierce and Overmaster should be the correct suit. I've always dislike misdirection because it's simply too much card disadvantage. Overmaster replaces misdirection very well because it's better as a protection spell and cycles against non blue decks like goblins or gw Mav.

It doesn't solve reanimator, definitely, but it's better than misd against counters.

Koby
07-30-2012, 02:25 AM
As a protection spell its tops. Misdirection isn't great against Reanimator as well. A protection suit of Force, Spell pierce and Overmaster should be the correct suit. I've always dislike misdirection because it's simply too much card disadvantage. Overmaster replaces misdirection very well because it's better as a protection spell and cycles against non blue decks like goblins or gw Mav.

It doesn't solve reanimator, definitely, but it's better than misd against counters.

You're correct on card disadvantage. Good thing we're not trying to win by grinding people out...

Overmaster being Red and being played against RUG is the complete opposite of what you this deck wants do. Casting Overmaster means you need :r: (obviously), which this deck has 7-8 sources, and half of them are burst. Seems dangerous to expose this much of our manabase to resolving Show & Tell. Furthermore, it puts the deck into more situations that made Gilded Drake better.

Misdirection also stops Surgical Extraction, can re-direct Animate Dead to other targets (low odds of that, but has happened before), is a free counter in a war. Finally, it's another blue card for FoW.

I like my chances better with MisD than Overmaster.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 02:33 AM
I think it's generally accepted that the first cards to go out are intuitions when boarding. And misdirection an animated dead is... Yeah pretty narrow. I don't see the issue here, you just fetch out the Overmaster when you are trying to go off against rug. You cast it on your combo turn, so you fetch your Volc then.

What about against gw Mav, Goblins, affinity and a whole lot of jank out there. Being able to cycle is a very strong ability. You can stick to the misdirections, but I've disliked the card for a while because in counter wars, each card matters. It isn't very good against control because it costs another card while being bad against aggro because it does nothing. That gives Overmaster a very strong case.

Edit: it was Eli Kassis who was playing it at the SCG Open. He's no slouch.

NathanS2k
07-30-2012, 02:33 AM
Come on.....why can't we all agree Overmaster is good? I already purchased a playset of foil Overmasters for dirt cheap. Lets all agree that it's good card so I feel better about it. :laugh:

catmint
07-30-2012, 03:25 AM
I am thinking about rocking sneak&show again now that reanimator is declining. Also overmaster is very inspiring to me. Did not even know that card existed :laugh:

Concerning red mana issues against RUG: That is indeed a new challenge, because we want a basic mountain, but I think it is doable. Especially if you run more Preordains. Overmaster does not necessarily need to replace exclusively Misdirection. I think Spell Pierces are also a good candidate.

Defense Grid seems also better than redblast against RUG or Esper. They tend to tap out early for threats, ponders, SD.top,... while we can play it off a Sol land. Once it's in play they cannot play threats if the want to counter at least once.

What I do not like about Eli Kassis's sideboard is not enough against reanimator. It is a very bad matchup and sugricals/cage/Through the Breach are very good.

Most importantly I was thinking about cutting 1 Emrakul and 1 Sneak Attack and upping the Preordain count to 3 or 4. Anyone ever tested that? Not sure if that is correct though...

Also did anyone consider going a slower route like omniscience playing 2-3 burning wish so you have more answers?

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 03:36 AM
The omni version with wish is interesting. It's slower though and more dependant on show and tell. An untapped karakas may be a serious problem here. I think sticking to the fast route and having sneak attack as an anti karakas component seems better.

Omniscience feels like an unneeded extra component. To make it work, you need show and tell, omni and wish/fatty. It's a 3 card combo. I think simple and clean is best. Overmaster is really good, I think the card is for real. Even late game when pierce/daze are bad, Overmaster still shines.

catmint
07-30-2012, 04:01 AM
I was not thinking about playing omniscience. Just 3 burning wish for S&T, Pyroclasm, Overmaster and maybe Stone Rain in the SB. You could also be cute and get silent departure before going off with S&T against maverick.
...just ideas. Probably not good.

Anway by prepareing a lot against RUG, Esper, Maverick and Maybe Reanimator by playing hate, overmaster, defense grid and what not, you can just easily run into storm and loose. :)

StefN
07-30-2012, 04:17 AM
I already ordered a playset of overmaster 2 month ago, but it was always too bad to play it. The positive aspects has already been discussed, so I will try to explain the drawbacks.
- First of all, overmaster is only good for Show and Tell obviously.
- Overmaster means that S&T now also cost 4 Mana like SneakAt.
- Overmaster is only good if you allready have all the combo pieces together. Misdirection can at least also be used against discard etc.
- Most of the time, an early Daze or Spell Pierce from your opponent for overmaster means, that you can't go of in that turn. 3Mana for S&T + 1 OverM. + Daze or Pierce Mana is too much most of the time. That means that you pay for the Overmaster to draw the card, and then try to go off the next turn. This is too slow most of the time. To support this tech you need a different Manabase like Kassis was playing. 20 Lands + 4 Pedal + 1 Spirit Guide. I play 19 lands + 4 Pedal like most other people wich means we have 2 more slots for other stuff. I don't thinck, that Overmaster + the different Manabase is all that trouble worth.

Just my 2cents :wink:

Water_Wizard
07-30-2012, 05:38 AM
I just bought a playset of Overmaster online for $0.24. I'm not sure if it's the next big thing or not, but for $0.24, I view it as an insurance policy. if everyone logs on tomorrow and the price doubles to $0.12 per card, than I've just saved nearly a quarter.

Too bad Overmaster doesn't say "instant or enchantment."

Additionally, why isn't it an instant? Instant speed would certainly help with cycling if it comes to that.

Eli has been a steady Sneak and Show player, although his decks are usually a little 'rogue', although it seems he performs very well. The fact that Eli is speaking highly about an unknown card doesn't surprise me.

Speaking of the Burning Wish plan, it used to be much more popular. I ran it about a year ago. It's good and it gives you a 2 drop. Just make sure to run Eye of Nowhere as a sorcery speed bounce spell.

Here are a few Burning Wish bounce deck's I found:
http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=7795
http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=10444
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Noformat&aname=&main=sneak+attack%3B+burning+wish&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

Burning Wish effectively increases the Show and Tell count, but it broadcasts it. Might be good with Overmaster. I guess it's a good thing Overmaster is a sorcery after all :smile:

Water_Wizard
07-30-2012, 05:45 AM
Lord has also been piloting a 'big' Sneak and Show list to some finishes in MTGO dailies.

Here are his two most recent lists:

July 8: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=131134

July 15: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=132969

He forgoes all 1 CC cantrips and all counterspells for Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere, running Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge, and Compulsive Research.

The only change he made between the lists was adding 3 Blood Moon (for 3 Firespout) in the sideboard and swapping a Grim Monolith for a Island (to accommodate for Blood Moon) in the main. It's kind of like Dragon Stompy meets Sneak and Show.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 07:22 AM
Not sure about big sneak. Losing fixing hurts combo decks more than non-combo decks in general. You might get chalice and trini down, but just die to a Goyf that goes all the way because you can't assemble the combo fast enough. But worth a try.

I think the Kassis manabase is not too radical. It just means that your cantrips are not going for lands as often. With the 19 land manabase, I feel 13 blue was too light anyway. I always wanted the 14th blue. I'm not sure about cutting a tomb though, he's just running 4 sol lands.

I think 8 fetches, 4 volcs, 1 Mountain, 2 Island, 5 sol lands is alright. The extra guide could be tested, I think 1 is an ok number. Fact is, misdirection doesn't win you counter wars due to the card disadvantage, and Overmaster is not the perfect fit but I still think it's better than misdirection.

catmint
07-30-2012, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the Input on overmaster StefN.
The drawbacks you mentioned are also the reason why I think it could easier replace spell pierce than Misdirection. Spell Pierce in the combo turn is also only good if you have 4 Mana. Overmaster can have a similar/better effect the turn before. Obviously cutting down Spell Pierces hurts your combo matchup.

The "too slow" argument is not that valid IMO, since in a match where the "stack war" will decide the game, you usually cast cantrips until you have enough backup. If you faster but loose the counterwar you gain nothing. Now instead (or in addition) to that you cast overmaster and draw out their counters. You can also bluff/confuse them by casting it without the mana to play show & tell (like if you want to cycle it) or as Eli mentioned just pay for their spell pierce and be a card up for next turn. In all other matches where counters are not relevant but you race, you just cylce it where it does not hurt you.

The biggest challenge I think is to get the mana right, because you do not want to use a temporary mana source for Overmaster. Therefore you have to go for Island, Mountain,... 20 land with 4 instead of 5 sol lands is a good start, but I would add more preordain and cut down 1 Sneak & 1 Emrakul. Maybe also a different fetch configuration and only 2 Volcanic Islands...Beeing a Turn 4-5 combo deck instead Turn 3-4 against a counter deck is not a big deal.

If you run burning wish the basic mountain is even more important. The posted lists with wish are all pretty bad I think.

No comments so far to my attempt of runnung 14 instead of 16 combo pieces...:cry: I think you often have to mulligan because of too much combo and very seldom have the problem not finding a combo piece. Especially if you add 3 Preordain and 3 Burning Wish.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 08:55 AM
Not a huge fan of Overmaster just because it's another mana (R at that as others have pointed out) that you need to go off. With Misdirection / Daze, you are effectively a turn faster. It's not like we're control and are going to need to grind people out with card advantage. If you're hoping to draw a combo piece off of the Overmaster then you're already in worse trouble.

I've been a proponent of Defense Grid, but I think 4 is a little much.

catmint
07-30-2012, 09:29 AM
I don't really understand the "turn faster argument". Only if you have the "god hand" you go off turn 2-3 against RUG right? Going for it early (helps their dazes btw.) and loosing the counterwar is often loosing the game! Of course we are not grinding out, but they HAVE to use either a spell pierce or a FoW against Overmaster and then you might draw another enabler/counter/cantrip and he looses the card. This could be the tipping point to win the counter war 1-2 turns later.

Still not sure if stretching the manabse for basic mountain T2 is worth it, but the meta adapted to Sneak. Esper running more discard and RUG playing 4FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Stifle and 3-4 Red-Blast (+mabe Gilded Drake and Surgical) from the board is much tougher to beat than it used to be back those days Grisel just arrived. So we need to adapt as well imo. Of course you can just optimize the SB for these matchups(i.e.: Defense Grid), but it might need a bigger "paradigm shift (i.e.: loosing speed for resilience in certain matchups)". A Burning Wish and/or Overmaster build could be a way.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 09:42 AM
I don't really understand the "turn faster argument". Only if you have the "god hand" you go off turn 2-3 against RUG right? Going for it early (helps their dazes btw.) and loosing the counterwar is often loosing the game! Of course we are not grinding out, but they HAVE to use either a spell pierce or a FoW against Overmaster and then you might draw another enabler/counter/cantrip and he looses the card. This could be the tipping point to win the counter war 1-2 turns later.


Overmaster is a turn slower because you have to have 1 extra mana more than you normally would to be able to use it (just like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm). If you're not holding it up for Overmaster, that extra mana gets used to play around Daze. It's very unlikely that you'll get to use Overmaster + enough mana to play around Daze against RUG.

Overmaster also obviously only works if you're going for Show & Tell. Say you're on the Sneak Attack plan - Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm are just better here.

Slowing down the combo when we already don't auto win if we resolve Show & Tell / Sneak Attack seems bad to me.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 10:01 AM
If you're on Sneak Attack plan they DONT KNOW. That's the whole point. Blue players are very unlikely to risk it. They will counter the Overmaster. I think they are many good points being brought up. Yes the deck is slower with Overmaster compared to Misdirection. However Overmaster allows more double/triple protection hands. Too often, It's force pitch Misdirection and Misdirection + Blue card for double protection or something similar. That's 4 card and already really late in the game. With Over Master, you can have Force + Overmaster + Overmaster/Pierce. The extra card really matters.

And as brought up above, you don't care about being a turn slower vs blue decks. RUG Delver may have a quick clock, but its not that quick. They still take 5-6 turns to kill you fastest and that's still plenty of time. Against aggro, you just cycle the overmaster. It's a win win. I think we can't play to many pierces with overmaster. Im not sure what the ideal numbers are but I think 9 pieces of protection should be ok. Ie: 4 Force, 2 Pierce, 3 Overmaster.

I think we don't need the SSG, if you need speed, Overmaster should just be cycled. G1 against Reanimator is Terrible anyway, so Overmaster over Misd shouldn't be such a big deal as it's almost unwinnable. Misd is also pretty bad against Reanimator so it's a pretty near side swap.

Against RUG or UW Miracle/Stoneblade is where Overmaster shines. Ok so you're a turn slower, it doesn't matter against these kind of decks. Like said earlier, you can run it out and if they pierce, it you pay, draw a card and try again next turn. That's pretty fantastic IMO. In these matchups, what matters is card advantage, you need every single card here.

Against aggro, Misdirection is a dead card (not counting discard). Against most Non-blue, it does nothing while overmaster cycles. Ever get those slow, protection heavy hands even after mulling? Yeah they suck, Overmaster makes it easier to keep these hands because you can cycle them away.

So to recap, Overmaster compared to Misdirection is better against Control and most non-discard aggro. It's equally bad against Reanimator, but at least cycles. It's only bad against decks that pack Hymm. Even against Thoughtseize, Misd-ing a Thoughtseize is card parity, even though it does protect the most important cards in your hand and strips your opponent's best card.

I say the pay off is much better than what you're losing.

catmint
07-30-2012, 10:14 AM
Misd-ing a Thoughtseize is card parity, even though it does protect the most important cards in your hand and strips your opponent's (best) worst card.

Fixed that for you. Opponent is still choosing. It is still often correct to do it.
I like misdirection also just as more FoW in a counter war, so I would swap some number misd/pierce/fluster for Overmaster. Not exclusively Misdirection. A blue card is oftem more affordable (or less conditional) than U up and them not beeing able to pay 2.

Misdirection a diabolic edict, a surcigal extraction, orim's chant, discard of course or even burn on a creature in a race is also a lot of utility I don't want to give up completely. Maybe if you play Leyline of Sanctity in the board.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 10:26 AM
Misdirection isn't in the deck to try and have the FoW + Misdirection hand. It's there to complement Force of Will in getting at least 1 "free" counterspell ready. Without Misdirection, your odds of having your own Force to trump theirs gets significantly worse.

To me, Overmaster is like Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm, but worse because it's not blue and it's more limited in application.

Yes, if you replace Misdirection with Overmaster / Pierce / Flusterstorm, you'll have less card disadvantage countermagic. But, against decks like RUG, it's very unlikely you'll have the mana available to use it all. I also think you're underestimating the speed that RUG can potentially kill us. If they open with a T1 Delver on the play (because that deck always seems to do that), we can potentially be in a world of hurt, especially post board.

Again for me, if you like Overmaster, Pierce & Flusterstorm are just better because they can protect Sneak Attack and add to the blue card count for FoW / Misdirection.

Yes, they might not know you're on the Sneak Attack plan. Or, they might have Thoughtseize / Cliqued you earlier and are now laughing at your hand of Sneak Attack + Overmaster.

xfxf
07-30-2012, 11:11 AM
I agree that if you are using Overmaster to protect your combo piece or to bait out a counterspell you can use Flusterstorm instead to the same effect. In either case you'll nullify the opposing counterspell for 1 mana.

There are two cases, opp has counters for Overmaster: If your opponent is not holding double counters it's the same effect as Flusterstorming his singleton counter. If he's holding a second counterspell and you don't have protection for Overmaster he'll first counter Overmaster and than your combo piece, so he'll win. This is again the equivalent of having a Flusterstorm as he'll counter your combo piece twice and come on top.

The second case, opp doesn't have counters for Overmaster: You win. With Flusterstorm you win again.

The only advantage of Overmaster is you can tutor for it with Burning Wish and can't tutor for Flusterstorm.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 11:15 AM
I agree that if you are using Overmaster to protect your combo piece or to bait out a counterspell you can use Flusterstorm instead to the same effect. In either case you'll nullify the opposing counterspell for 1 mana.

There are two cases, opp has counters for Overmaster: If your opponent is not holding double counters it's the same effect as Flusterstorming his singleton counter. If he's holding a second counterspell and you don't have protection for Overmaster he'll first counter Overmaster and than your combo piece, so he'll win. This is again the equivalent of having a Flusterstorm as he'll counter your combo piece twice and come on top.

The second case, opp doesn't have counters for Overmaster: You win. With Flusterstorm you win again.

The only advantage of Overmaster is you can tutor for it with Burning Wish and can't tutor for Flusterstorm.

This is also assuming you're going off with Show & Tell and not Sneak Attack. Overmaster is a protection piece that only works for 1/2 of our combo pieces.

Koby
07-30-2012, 11:33 AM
If you're on Sneak Attack plan they DONT KNOW. That's the whole point. Blue players are very unlikely to risk it. They will counter the Overmaster. I think they are many good points being brought up. Yes the deck is slower with Overmaster compared to Misdirection. However Overmaster allows more double/triple protection hands. Too often, It's force pitch Misdirection and Misdirection + Blue card for double protection or something similar. That's 4 card and already really late in the game. With Over Master, you can have Force + Overmaster + Overmaster/Pierce. The extra card really matters.

And as brought up above, you don't care about being a turn slower vs blue decks. RUG Delver may have a quick clock, but its not that quick. They still take 5-6 turns to kill you fastest and that's still plenty of time. Against aggro, you just cycle the overmaster. It's a win win. I think we can't play to many pierces with overmaster. Im not sure what the ideal numbers are but I think 9 pieces of protection should be ok. Ie: 4 Force, 2 Pierce, 3 Overmaster.

I think we don't need the SSG, if you need speed, Overmaster should just be cycled. G1 against Reanimator is Terrible anyway, so Overmaster over Misd shouldn't be such a big deal as it's almost unwinnable. Misd is also pretty bad against Reanimator so it's a pretty near side swap.

(1) Against RUG or UW Miracle/Stoneblade is where Overmaster shines. Ok so you're a turn slower, it doesn't matter against these kind of decks. Like said earlier, you can run it out and if they pierce, it you pay, draw a card and try again next turn. That's pretty fantastic IMO. In these matchups, what matters is card advantage, you need every single card here.

(2) Against aggro, Misdirection is a dead card (not counting discard). Against most Non-blue, it does nothing while overmaster cycles. Ever get those slow, protection heavy hands even after mulling? Yeah they suck, Overmaster makes it easier to keep these hands because you can cycle them away.

(3) So to recap, Overmaster compared to Misdirection is better against Control and most non-discard aggro. It's equally bad against Reanimator, but at least cycles. It's only bad against decks that pack Hymm. Even against Thoughtseize, Misd-ing a Thoughtseize is card parity, even though it does protect the most important cards in your hand and strips your opponent's best card.

I say the pay off is much better than what you're losing.

Some thoughts,

1. Against RUG and UW Miracle Game 1, it's just a matter of resolving an enabler. They can't interact with either one outside of the stack. Flusterstorm shines here just as much as Overmaster, as well as Misdirection. Being reactive vs proactive is much better here since they aren't guarenteed to have a counterspell.

2. Granted, Overmaster cycling is nice, and Misdirection is a dead card. But we're winning this one 80% of the time without either of those two spells anyway. Show & Tell -> win game. or Sneak Attack -> win game. Having more cantrips (blue kind) help much more than simply cycling.

3. Control has never been a hard matchup for this deck because they don't represent a clock. So long as they don't, we have all the time in the world to setup. Overmaster is inconsequential in these matchups as protection.

In those matchups where we can't afford to pay :r: extra for proteciton is what makes/breaks the card selection for me. In those matchups having free counters 5-7 helps much more than Overmaster.

joemauer
07-30-2012, 03:28 PM
One other advantage Misdirection(or any counterspells that Overmaster will replace) has over Overmaster is after you get a Grisselbrand in play the Misdirections will be better to draw into than Overmaster.

Final Fortune
07-30-2012, 05:48 PM
Have any of you guys tried 4 Force of Will, 4 Misdirection and 4 Gitaxian Probe? For the purposes of resolving either Sneak Attack or Show and Tell, the pitch counters are the most effective. However, the problem with pitch counters is that they exhaust your ability to recover from a lost counter war by expending your resources at 2 to 1. By playing Gitaxian Probe, you can judiciously enter into counter wars with your opponent knowing whether or not you'll come out ahead or behind and play accordingly.

Now, the problem is pitch counters concede ground vs Storm and Reanimator, especially against TES playing Silence over Orim's Chant. But regardless the Storm and Reanimator match ups aren't really great game 1 anyway, but we can make up ground vs both of them, especially Reanimator, post-board.

What I'm recommending is something along the lines,

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Griselbrand
4 Emakrul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarns
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic island
2 Island
1 Mountain

catmint
07-30-2012, 05:52 PM
Overmaster has some significant advantages over Pierce or Misdirection:

1) Most importantly:
It can bait out a hard counter for 1 red mana and a card ... or bait a spell pierce/daze for 1 red mana and 1-2 mana saving the card WITHOUT risking to loose your enabler in a counterwar. Assume you have 3 overmaster and they have 3 counterspells. If you live for 3 turns they will loose their counterspells and you free to go. Assume you have 3 pierce/flustestorm/misdirection, you will very likely not be able to use them to the same effect in one turn. Please don't tell me "but they can draw new counters"... we also have a draw step...

2) It will bait out a counter even if you do not have the mana to cast show and tell or show and tell itself in your hand. To play spell pierce you need to have the extra mana to do something and with with Misdirection the extra blue card.

3) If overmaster is not needed it cylces and does not sit dead in your hand.

The disadvantages are also very significant though:

Upfront. I don't think you are slower in the goldfish, so that does not matter. Slower against RUG or Esper is not that relevant imo (and apparently ivanpei agrees). Yes, RUG can have a superfast goldfish, but then they have less counters. A turn 1 delver needs 6 turns to make 18 damage.

1) Manabase: .
Basic Mountain becomes way more important. -> More lands, less sol lands, different fetch lands,... I cannot say without testing how much you need to change and of course how much it hurts mulligan and/or goldfish, but you surely need to do something about it, if you dont want a wasteland to fuck you. As I write this fetching for this mountain will hurt spell pierce/flusterstorm to protect your combo much more than Misdirection...hmmmm.....

2) You loose your ability to counter what hurts you compared to Spell Pierce: Other combo decks, counterbalance and sometimes a Jace, GSZ, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge or whatever.

Therefore my conclusion so far is that it is a meta call.
If you face a lot of faster combo or counterbalance go for the traditional build.
If you face a lot of Esper, RUG,... I think overmaster is the right call.

Last comment @ Koby:
You mentioned that control is not a hard matchup. I do not agree for the following reasons:
- they are more consistent and have an edge on the long term. Playing Sneak you feel sometimes undefeatable, but then other games you mull to 5 and draw monsters loosing to yourself.

- Esper does not kill that fast, but attacks you also with discard. Clique and SFM are not the worst win-conditions.

- The clock of Miracle control is the counterbalance lock or other hate like Canonist, Meddling Mage, Needle, Ensnaring Bridge,...

S1N1STER
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
I went 6-2 (18th in standings after the Swiss rounds) at yesterdays SCG Buffalo with a pretty standard sneak and show list except I had two maindeck karakas which came in pretty handy in the two mirror matches. My 1st lost was to high tide, and my second loss was to Kenny Castor playing RUG. Both losses were because I could not win any counter wars. After briefly talking to Eli in the line to get our prize $ I was convinced enough to order a playset of foil overmaster's and at least try them out.

ivanpei
07-30-2012, 07:58 PM
I think another thing I'd like to point out is to test Overmaster over postboard games. Misdirection becomes really bad in postboard games when counter mass is more important that speed. It's the worst card in the protection suit after board because rug or esper will be armed to the teeth and every card counts. I'd rather have a suit of Force, reb, Overmaster and pierce because it's a varied protection approach which does not have too much card disadvantage. Also when the game draws out, pierce becomes less effective while Overmaster is still a chant.

Catmint pointed out the pros and cons pretty well. The main point is that you can run it out earlier and actually require less lands. Say you have 2 pierces to protect snt, you need 5 mana to make it work. With Overmaster you just need 4 if you have double protection because you can lead off 1 turn and if countered, try again next turn. If it gets forced, profit, if pierced you net 1 card as well.

Overmaster fucks over spell pierce and that's nothing to scoff at. The whole format has adjusted and most blue decks are playing a ton of pierces and flusterstorms. I'm primarily a uw miracle/blade player and I play 5-6 tax counters in my blue decks between main and board. I would not want to be in a position against an Overmaster, it is a serious threat.

Moosedog
07-31-2012, 08:42 AM
@S1N1STER
what was your list exactly? Where did you fit the Karakas is what I am most interested in.

catmint
07-31-2012, 08:54 AM
No serious discussion about burning wish.
No serious discussion about reducing combo pieces with more cantrips to be more consistent.

We are back to "what is your list".

*frustration*

Esper3k
07-31-2012, 08:59 AM
Why Burning Wish again? It only fetches Show & Tell (unless there's some other sorcery that fetches Sneak Attack?) out of our 4 possible combo pieces and it's not like we play hand disruption for protection?

Not to mention it's slow...

I don't see why it's better than Intuition, which gets us whatever we want at instant speed and is blue?

Esper3k
07-31-2012, 09:45 AM
Regarding Overmaster: I think it's going to be better for the Omniscience Show & Tell decks than it will be for Sneaky Show since the Omniscience decks are all-in on the Show & Tell win to begin with. Since they run Burning Wish as well, they can also run it in the board if necessary.

catmint
07-31-2012, 09:46 AM
Well it could fetch Overmaster and some hate in the form of bounce or artifact/land destruction, mass removal against a hate bear or in desperation. Having 7-8 virtual show&tell feels very strong versus discard.

It cant be compared to intuition because having 3 in the maindeck or 1of in the sideboard is a big difference. I would not just swap it for intuition.

I got the idea in my attempts to go down on "clunky" combo pieces. The arguments of beeing slow and limiting the sideboard space is kind of important though.

ivanpei
07-31-2012, 09:47 AM
Burning wish costs 2, which is huge because you don't have to drop a double land to play Intuition. Burning wish can fetch silver bullets to help in bad situations such as Pyroclasm against Mav or Overmaster against Blue.

Generally the deck is really hard to hate though and doesn't fold to any specific hate. That's what I like about SNT/Sneak, most hate only affects 1 of the combo pieces. What do you really really need to kill? It's not like TES where Thalia/Teeq= GG.

Esper3k
07-31-2012, 09:52 AM
Sure, Burning Wish has the potential to be good, but what are you going to cut for it?

Most of the decklists are pretty tight on space as is. I just don't think cutting protection or cantrips for something that tutors for only 1 card out of our combo is worth it.

Intuition is more powerful in our deck because it's virtually an instant speed Demonic Tutor.

ivanpei
07-31-2012, 10:05 AM
Anyway, sinister, how was the Proggy over the 4th Griselbrand? And why Replace Grisel over Emrakul? I also feel 8 Monsters is quite alot since they don't pitch to Force anymore. Did that 1 Blue Monster help, or did you keep wishing it was a Griselbrand? I've realised that I've been sending monsters back to the library with Brainstorm the most, compared to any other card. Because multiple monsters really don't do anything, I think going down to 7, but playing 2 Intuitions should be ok.

S1N1STER
07-31-2012, 06:50 PM
@S1N1STER
what was your list exactly? Where did you fit the Karakas is what I am most interested in.

I ended up taking out a lotus petal and an intuition for the two MD Karakas. The list I ended up playing was:

4x Brainstorm
3x spell pierce
1x Flusterstorm
4x Sneak attack
4x Emrakul
4x Ponder
4x FoW
4x Show and Tell
4x Griselbrand
3x Lotus Petal
2x Misdirection
2x Intuition

4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty rainforest
1x Polluted delta
1x Flooded strand
3x Ancient tomb
2x City of traitors
2x Island
1x Mountain
3x Volcanic Island
2x Karakas

There was one game vs. affinity where had a Karakas on the board with a sneak attack and Emrakul in hand but only one red source, maybe if that Karakas had been a 4th lotus petal I would have won that one, but I still ended up winning the match with a T2 Emrakul in game 3.

lambert101
08-04-2012, 12:04 AM
Have been testing the following list:

Main:

Land [23]
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures [8]
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Cantrips [11]
2 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain

Counters [10]
3 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Enablers [8]
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

Sideboard:
3 Cursed Totem
2 Through the Breach
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
2 Firespout

Board Plans:

Maverick:
- 3 Spell Pierce
- 3 Misdirection
- 2 Intuition
- 2 Show and Tell

+ 3 Cursed Totem
+ 2 Firespout
+ 2 Echoing Truth
+ 2 Through the Breech

I feel with this set up I am playing control. I understand that that Cursed Totem hits Griselbrand, but the 7/7 flying lifelink will get the job done.

RUG:
- 2 Intuition
- 1 Misdirection

+ 3 Pyroblast

You have access to 13 counters including Pyroblast. Pyroblast also hits Gilded Drake and Delver of Secrets.

Stoneblade/Miracles

- 2 Intuition
- 1 Preordain
- 3 Misdirection

+ 3 Pyroblast
+ 2 Echoing Truth

Not sure if this plan is optimal.

Any comments or questions feel free to evaluate.

catmint
08-06-2012, 05:44 AM
My comments to your SB plan.

Cursed Totem is strong versus maverick, but they can still draw their Karakas. I prefer Pithing needle, which has also a lot of utility in other matchups (SD.top, Liliana, Belcher,...) where cursed totem is useless.

I guess the plan with firespout is to get some time, however with a Thalia out the spell costs 4, which makes it bad. No utility in other matchups except for elves I guess.

Echoing Truth is also narrow. Only good: EOT Thalia to go off.

IMO Best SB plan in a Maverick heavy meta is 4 Pithing Needle.

Vs. RUG:
Red-blast is of course very strong. The problem that I see is that you need a lot of mana to play the combo & cast the protection in the same turn, which can be challenging vs. their mana denial plan and plays into their daze. Therefore I like the tech's of preventively drawing out their counterspell without risking your combo. Best options I know so far: Overmaster & Defense Grid.

lambert101
08-06-2012, 06:57 AM
@catmint

Looking over my post I can see your points. Any suggestions for a side list?

catmint
08-06-2012, 07:47 AM
For your maindeck in an unknown meta I would probably try something like this:

3 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
3 Defense Grid
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Through the Breach
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Overmaster

ivanpei
08-06-2012, 09:45 AM
Tested the deck over the weekend against RUG, Reanimator and the usual suspects. Overmaster was a boss, especially after board. The points have been argued but I'm keeping my Overmasters in the main as a 3 off.

Also, I think 2 Through the Breach should be in every SB. Reanimator and the Mirror may not be that common but I've found TtB very important. Pithing needle from Reanimator absolutely destroys this deck. REBs can't hit them and usually we don't bring in bounce against Reanimator.

Esper3k
08-06-2012, 10:06 AM
I actually think some bounce vs Reanimator is probably correct since we have absolutely no outs to Blazing Archon otherwise.

rxavage
08-06-2012, 11:52 AM
Tested the deck over the weekend against RUG, Reanimator and the usual suspects. Overmaster was a boss, especially after board. The points have been argued but I'm keeping my Overmasters in the main as a 3 off.

Also, I think 2 Through the Breach should be in every SB. Reanimator and the Mirror may not be that common but I've found TtB very important. Pithing needle from Reanimator absolutely destroys this deck. REBs can't hit them and usually we don't bring in bounce against Reanimator.

I've been really diggin' the 3 Overmaster main too. Always bring bounce in vs Reanimator, Through the Breach saves games sometimes.

lambert101
08-06-2012, 11:52 AM
Good discussion going! Trying to make side more geared towards an open.meta with a huge amount of Maverick and RUG.

3 Pithing Needle
3 Defense Grid
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Through the Breach
3 Overmaster

Esper3k
08-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Good discussion going! Trying to make side more geared towards an open.meta with a huge amount of Maverick and RUG.

3 Pithing Needle
3 Defense Grid
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Through the Breach
3 Overmaster

Why not play 3 Karakas in the side instead of Needle if you're using it just for the Maverick matchup anyways?

Also like Relic as yard hate for us since we don't care about the yard anyways.

useL
08-07-2012, 12:39 AM
Been playing this archetype for a year now or so and you have had the same discussion about sideboard (excluding Overmaster) the entire time.

On the other hand I made a change recently that made my deck explode.

- 1 Emrakul (now 3)
- 1 Volcanic Island (now 2)
- 1 Misdirection (now 2)
- 2 Intuition
+ 3 Preordain
+ 2 Simian Spirit Guide

The deck is so much faster now. I really recommend going down in lands and adding Simian. I played against RUG yesterday where Daze and Pierce usually is a problem to resolve your spell. He walked into Simian Spirit Guide with his Daze and that was the match.

Over to your boring sideboard discussion again.

lochlan
08-07-2012, 09:59 AM
- 1 Volcanic Island (now 2)
+ 3 Preordain
I really recommend going down in lands and adding Simian.

How many lands are you running? Your hubris is confusing when your pluses and minuses are "useLess" without a list to reference. I'm assuming you went from 19 to 18? It's not surprising that you had to add more cantrips to find your permanent mana sources. I'm sure the 2 SSGs help, but I've found that this deck has a lot of trouble with 18 lands. It's kind of like when you cut lands in Spiral Tide: yeah, you can make it work because you have so many cantrips, but then you just end up using them to find land instead of business spells.


I played against RUG yesterday where Daze and Pierce usually is a problem to resolve your spell. He walked into Simian Spirit Guide with his Daze and that was the match.

Your implication is that 2x SSG will shore up the RUG match? That doesn't seem likely. I agree that they won't see it coming, but against RUG (particularly the versions running Stifle) I often have trouble getting enough mana to cast spells, period--let alone play through soft counters. I don't see how -1 Volcanic and +2 SSG is going to change that drastically.

Koby
08-07-2012, 11:19 AM
I also run 18 lands, being very unsatisfied with the 19 land count. No problems so far. In fact, I have a much tougher time finding business than I do lands. Sol-lands makes the low land count irrelevant most of the time.

S1N1STER
08-12-2012, 10:10 AM
Ended up making top 4 at Jupiter's NELC yesterday. Played the same list that I played at Buffalo with a slightly different sideboard:
http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51548/nelc-decklists-august-11th-2012

The top 4 ended up splitting the prize $ so we could all go home, so I ended up taking credit and picking myself up a moat, tropical island, and a foil stifle.

rxavage
08-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Ended up making top 4 at Jupiter's NELC yesterday. Played the same list that I played at Buffalo with a slightly different sideboard:
http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51548/nelc-decklists-august-11th-2012

The top 4 ended up splitting the prize $ so we could all go home, so I ended up taking credit and picking myself up a moat, tropical island, and a foil stifle.


Nice job. Do we have a report coming?

Zyroc
08-13-2012, 08:29 AM
Nice job. Do we have a report coming?

If not, just wonder how u SB:ed against Maverick?

Jacemindbreak
08-13-2012, 11:28 PM
If not, just wonder how u SB:ed against Maverick?

turn 3 sneak attack emrukal

useL
08-14-2012, 01:25 AM
I am about to pick up this deck once more after a crushing blow the last tournament that made me hate it.

What do you guys recommend having in your sideboard to better tackle UW-miracledecks? In my meta we have several also running counterbalance with 6 cmc3 cards in maindeck making it quite hard to battle through.

JPA
08-19-2012, 04:04 AM
Sneak Show wins the Legacy Championship at GenCon!

S1N1STER
08-19-2012, 12:25 PM
If not, just wonder how u SB:ed against Maverick?

My experiences vs. maverick are if you can take care of their karakas with either your own or a blood moon from the board you don't lose very often.

bfeingersh
08-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Sneak Show wins the Legacy Championship at GenCon!
On a halfway related topic, Show and Tell/Omniscience wins the legacy MOCS, with 3 more in the top 32. 1 Sneak Show in the top 32 as well.

yankeedave
08-19-2012, 01:28 PM
On a halfway related topic, Show and Tell/Omniscience wins the legacy MOCS, with 3 more in the top 32. 1 Sneak Show in the top 32 as well.

Got a link for that?

bfeingersh
08-19-2012, 01:45 PM
Got a link for that?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4213076

yankeedave
08-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Thanks!

JPA
08-19-2012, 04:22 PM
The winner of the "Offline"-Champs Chris Bergeson (maybe he is even on this forum and might post a report or some of his thoughts) copied Eli Kassis' Overmaster-list almost 1-1, with some minor tweaks in the sideboard.

For reference:

3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
3 Overmaster
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

SB:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Defense Grid
1 Pithing Needle
2 Karakas
2 Wipe Away
1 Red Elemental Blast

This list is clearly designed to crush Maverick and Tempo RUG.

The Overmasters are better in Omniscience since you can Wish for them and I think playing 3 of them main might be ok in the current meta where everyone (or 30 %, at least) plays boring Canadian. I've really been liking Defense Grid, since I tend to lose the counterwar against RUG in games 2 and 3.

Moreover, I wonder how he could beat discard heavy versions of Esper Blade without Misdirection or LoS. I haven't been a big fan of the Leyline in the past myself, but if you can fit them in your sideboard, they really do a lot vs some decks.
Maybe discard decks are too bad anyway, since they lose vs topdecks and Sneak Show is great at just that. :D

I didn't write in this thread for a long time, because I felt that Sneak Show is sometimes too random for me, but its raw power and the fun of Griselbrand always pushes me back to it. ^^

Omnisciene getting popular is understandable, because people always prefer the direct kill instead of being vulnerable to 1-ofs like Karakas and Humility. I still like Sneak Show better, it's more linear, less focused on Show and Tell only. All of its combo parts interact with eachother (except creature+creature), Omniscience plus Griselbrand does nothing without a Show and Tell, Sneak Attack plus Griselbrand wins the game in 90 % of the cases.

Let's stay in the DtB section, we are still the biggest baddy. People will realize that again soon, maybe it starts with the GenCon-win.

JPA
08-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Hooray, Chris Bergeson will write a tournament report that will be published on Eternal Central!

JPA
08-23-2012, 02:40 PM
Check it out: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3018 !!

oneiros76
08-23-2012, 03:25 PM
Hey all, happy to bring home the win for Sneak and Show! The article JPAnghelescu links to lists a lot of my thoughts on the deck and how it compares to the Omni lists, but in general I thought that the Omni list is a bit slower and has a weaker manabase and less explosiveness but is a bit stronger against control decks. Initially I thought that the Omni list would be a decent choice due to being able to dodge things like ensaring bridge, karakas, gilded drake etc but the major weaknesses of a weaker manabase and needing the extra card to be able to go off after resolving omniscience compared to just sneaking or showing a guy then death for opponent was to much of a setback, and for this tournament i was definitely not wrong.

MeddlingMageGR
08-26-2012, 11:24 PM
I try to make the correct recipe, for the last 9 open slots in this deck.
The non-negotiable slots are :

4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
= 32 cards

19 lands

The 9 slots can contain cards like : Preodrain, Intuition, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Overmaster, Misdirection. These are the most favorable cards. Im really confused. Any help plz ?

Esper3k
08-27-2012, 08:47 AM
I try to make the correct recipe, for the last 9 open slots in this deck.
The non-negotiable slots are :

4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
= 32 cards

19 lands

The 9 slots can contain cards like : Preodrain, Intuition, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Overmaster, Misdirection. These are the most favorable cards. Im really confused. Any help plz ?

What are you confused about? Most people fill those last 9 slots with a mix of extra protection & cantrip/tutoring.

MeddlingMageGR
08-27-2012, 09:12 AM
Thanx a lot, i know that :)
Is it better to use for example 4 Flusterstorm, 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Misdirections than 1 Preodrain, 2 Intuitions, 2 Misdirections 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Flusterstorm ? What's the best mix for you ?

Esper3k
08-27-2012, 09:22 AM
Really depends on your preference. When I played the deck, I liked 3 Misdirection, 2 Preordain, 1 Intuition, 3 (insert card for the expected metagame).

Koby
08-27-2012, 11:51 AM
I also run 18 lands, being very unsatisfied with the 19 land count. No problems so far. In fact, I have a much tougher time finding business than I do lands. Sol-lands makes the low land count irrelevant most of the time.

Everytime I try to play 19 lands, I get punished by drawing all of them. *sigh* Never doing 19 lands ever again with this deck.

dameus
08-27-2012, 08:49 PM
Everytime I try to play 19 lands, I get punished by drawing all of them. *sigh* Never doing 19 lands ever again with this deck.

Is there any way to mix luck? I play 20 lands and played an 8 rd Swiss yesterday (17 total games) and had a 7-card no-land mulligan three times!

MeddlingMageGR
08-27-2012, 09:23 PM
You must be a very lucky person. Personally with 19 lands i have problems.

menace13
08-27-2012, 10:22 PM
Thanx a lot, i know that :)
Is it better to use for example 4 Flusterstorm, 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Misdirections than 1 Preodrain, 2 Intuitions, 2 Misdirections 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Flusterstorm ? What's the best mix for you ?

Stifles, Probes, Overmaster, 1 or 2 Omniscience, Cliques, Jaces, Karakas, REB, More Accel, What ever you think you will be facing the most, pack a few answers for.


Drawing and cantrip into land gets worse for this deck after the first few (3+)are already in hand or play. 18 lands can be supported and it has before-The old GP list-. There is a minimum of 8 Cantrips, 4 Sol lands, and 4 Accelerators in most every build easing the 18 land count. Land slots would be replaced with additional acceleration like Seething Song, and Simian Spirit Guide. Playing 5 or more Sol Ring lands also helps.

Koby
08-27-2012, 11:09 PM
Is there any way to mix luck? I play 20 lands and played an 8 rd Swiss yesterday (17 total games) and had a 7-card no-land mulligan three times!

I still get those too. The hands that are just terrible are the 2 cantrip hand that you shuffler after your Ponder finds bricks, then hit a pocket of lands afterwards. More lands = more dead draws.

MeddlingMageGR
08-28-2012, 11:02 PM
Has any of you tried out Snapcaster Mage? With 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, some Spell Pierce and some Flusterstorm, and of course 4 Show and Tell, seems that helps...

JPA
08-29-2012, 04:01 AM
Has any of you tried out Snapcaster Mage? With 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, some Spell Pierce and some Flusterstorm, and of course 4 Show and Tell, seems that helps...

More expensive cantrips and Show and Tells? No thank you, I'd rather keep these slots for protection/1mana cantrips.

catmint
08-29-2012, 04:54 AM
I still get those too. The hands that are just terrible are the 2 cantrip hand that you shuffler after your Ponder finds bricks, then hit a pocket of lands afterwards. More lands = more dead draws.

I have a a different view on this:

- What is most important for the deck is to control it's draw. Therefore I play 11 cantrips. "Basic Island" Ponder/Preordain is what I want except for having nut-draws.

- The nature of the combo is that you have 8 creatures where you don't want more than 1 and half of the enablers (sneak attack) are usually also bad/clunky in multiples. Hence, you get a lot of virtual mulligans or clunky hands you should mulligan.

- Mulligan with this deck is not necessarily a bad thing because the power level is so high and you have to "trust in randomness" that you get better hands going down to 6 or 5 on a regular basis.

Now comes the math (which I do not calculate, I judge by my feeling):
Which scenario hurts more (compare 18 lands (13 blue sources) with 4 petal vs. 20 lands (15 blue sources) 3 petal)

Assume you already have 4 mana sources drawn. How much more likely is it to draw an extra manasource on an unfiltered draw (keep in mind only 1 manasource more in the 20 land build)?
-> too lazy to calculate but I guess it is negligeble and experiences of people going up to 19 and then beeing flooded for some games is just variance and has to be evaluated without the emotions.

How often should you mulligan to 6 and to 5? (I think the number is pretty high; Courious what you think.)

How much more often willl I end up without a blue source if I mulligan to 6 or 5.
here I know the number out of MWS for the opening 7:
- 15 blue sources chances are 88% to get a blue source;
- 13 blue sources chances are 84% to get a blue source;
If it is already 4% in the opening hand, I guess the number will add up to a significant amount going down to 6 and 5, which makes a high number of blue sources necessary (and please don't tell me to win games with a temporary blue source).

Another factor is of course how often will your opponents deck try to disrupt your mana development? Tipp: (In legacy probably the most common forms of disruption.)

To be fair what is not calculated is how much more you can go off 1 turn earlier running 1 petal more, but I think this number is again pretty low.

My conclusion:
Beeing able to comfortable mulligan to 5 and beeing more resistant vs. mana disruption (wasteland, Port, Thalia, Daze, Pierce) is much more important than getting a little bit more flooded. Of course I am open to be convinced otherwise if someone can show the math behind the argument.

JPA
08-29-2012, 11:04 AM
I also think that more lands are better. Especially against the decks without counters that can only stop you with mana denial it is extremely comfortable to be immune to that denial; same against RUG.

Chris' GenCon winning list played 25 mana sources (it's also my stock list right now) and it feels just right. Especially with more Petals/Spirit Guides you are really explosive. With 18 lands I often have the 1 Tomb hand.

thefreakaccident
09-02-2012, 07:59 PM
I've been tinkering with a janky Ug version of this deck, and i was wondering what you guys thought.

Lands//21
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
3 island
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
2 flooded strand
1 wooded foothills
4 mutavault

creatures//13
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
1 progenitus
4 mothdust changling
1 shapesharer

cheat spells//8
4 descendant's path
4 show and tell

spells//18
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's divining top
1 intuition
1 personal tutor
1 worldly tutor

sideboard//
3 echoing truth
2 karakas
4 tormod's crypt
1 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
1 moment's peace
1 intuition







With descendant's path you actually get to cast emrakul to get the extra turn. This deck was inspired by a noob online playing tribal treefolk, but I still like the idea. Changeling-> win
Simple enough. The deck does not have much to say for itself as far as speed against any of the current lists, but it's usually fast enough. The little critters actually do a lot when facing a ridiculous amount of innocent bloods/smallpox/gatekeepers, but other than that they just try to stall/activate the path.

JPA
09-03-2012, 08:56 AM
I've been tinkering with a janky Ug version of this deck, and i was wondering what you guys thought.

Lands//21
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
3 island
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
2 flooded strand
1 wooded foothills
4 mutavault

creatures//13
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
1 progenitus
4 mothdust changling
1 shapesharer

cheat spells//8
4 descendant's path
4 show and tell

spells//18
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's divining top
1 intuition
1 personal tutor
1 worldly tutor

sideboard//
3 echoing truth
2 karakas
4 tormod's crypt
1 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
1 moment's peace
1 intuition







With descendant's path you actually get to cast emrakul to get the extra turn. This deck was inspired by a noob online playing tribal treefolk, but I still like the idea. Changeling-> win
Simple enough. The deck does not have much to say for itself as far as speed against any of the current lists, but it's usually fast enough. The little critters actually do a lot when facing a ridiculous amount of innocent bloods/smallpox/gatekeepers, but other than that they just try to stall/activate the path.

This isn't a UG-Version of Sneak & Show, it's a different deck. ;-) Wrong thread I think.

JPA
09-04-2012, 06:55 AM
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383194_464428290245266_279695577_n.jpg

Could he find a home in Sneak & Show? :D

Hopo
09-04-2012, 07:44 AM
Suffers from the same issues as the big green persist guy: Swords to Plowshares. Both are basically playable only with Sneak Attack, and that is not what this deck wants from it's creatures.

Dia_Bot
09-04-2012, 07:58 AM
I agree with hopo, you never want your creature to get stp'ed (and not get at least 7 new cards out of the deal :)).

catmint
09-04-2012, 08:28 AM
Even without the STP consideration, by the time I get sneak attack online I feel I am often so far behind that I need Anihilator 6 to win. This beast far away from playable.

Justin
09-04-2012, 09:56 AM
I agree that the new wurm doesn't come close to making the cut with Emrakul and Griselbrand available. That speaks to the power creep of Magic today. A few years ago, he would have been a nice addition to a Sneak Attack deck.

MeddlingMageGR
09-16-2012, 01:23 AM
More expensive cantrips and Show and Tells? No thank you, I'd rather keep these slots for protection/1mana cantrips.

Why is so bad, in late game to play again and again your ponders, your brainstorms and your spell pierce ? And from sideboard your Pyroclasm, and your Surgical Extraction ? As I said before this deck has 9 open slots for cards. Some players play Misdirection or Intuition or Overmaster or Flusterstorm or Daze or anything else. So, Snapcaster could be an option.

MeddlingMageGR
09-18-2012, 10:25 PM
Why is so bad, in late game to play again and again your ponders, your brainstorms and your spell pierce ? And from sideboard your Pyroclasm, and your Surgical Extraction ? As I said before this deck has 9 open slots for cards. Some players play Misdirection or Intuition or Overmaster or Flusterstorm or Daze or anything else. So, Snapcaster could be an option.

Well... after 4 hours playtesting, I figured out that Snapcaster is not so helpful. I spend 2 mana and 1 more, and with that cost i could play an Intuition and get anything I want. Im not a very lucky person, and sometimes after 2-3 ponders and 1 Snapcaster I still missed to get a creature. That's my first observation. I cut Snapcaster and return back to Intuition.
Observation no2 : Iam wondering when ppl will switch back to Progenitus. Cards like Mangara of Corondor, Oblivion Ring, Gilded Drake and ofcourse Swords to Plowshares and Karakas are a big trouble.

I test a version with 3 Emrakuls, 3 Griselbrands, and 3 Progenitus. From some early matches Progenitus won me some games. And that's very promising.

menace13
09-18-2012, 10:42 PM
What I think is The best version of this deck, runs Omniscience in addition to 2 to 3 Sneak Attacks. The lists are all over MTGO.
Sample list:

60 cards

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
20 lands

3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
6 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Show and Tell
2 Sneak Attack
34 other spells

MeddlingMageGR
09-19-2012, 01:25 PM
What I think is The best version of this deck, runs Omniscience in addition to 2 to 3 Sneak Attacks. The lists are all over MTGO.
Sample list:

60 cards

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
20 lands

3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
6 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Show and Tell
2 Sneak Attack
34 other spells

With only 4 Force of Will and 3 more pseudocounters ? No thanx.

Final Fortune
09-19-2012, 02:06 PM
Overmaster is ridiculous at what it does, which is win the attrition war vs. aggro-control and control at the cost of not being able to disrupt other combo decks. I have a really hard time choosing between playing Overmaster and Defense Grid or Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm because even tho' the latter two are more versatile, the prior 2 are just busted as fuck vs. anything with Islands not named Reanimator.

JPA
09-19-2012, 02:11 PM
I am playing a Sneak Show version with 12 cantrips right now (without Omniscience) and it's working very well. Will post my full list after a big tournament this weekend.

Esper3k
09-19-2012, 02:29 PM
Again, I feel Overmaster is better in the pure Omniscience deck because you absolutely have to resolve that Show & Tell.

In Sneaky Show, half your won conditions don't benefit from Overmaster resolving...

menace13
09-19-2012, 02:53 PM
With only 4 Force of Will and 3 more pseudocounters ? No thanx.

Good for you.

Playing Sneak Attack without Omniscience is worse off for the deck. Think of it as Sneak Attacks but only much better.

The list and different versions can all be found on:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/whatshappening

MeddlingMageGR
09-19-2012, 05:38 PM
yeah, with the only small difference that Sneak attack can be casted from the hand paying 4 mana, but Omniscience is playable only with Show and Tell.

Pennywise the clown
09-20-2012, 05:47 AM
Hello fellow sneakattackers :smile:
I am a first time poster but long time lurker who has just gotten back into mtg. I have a love for the card sneak attack that goes back all the way to playing it in type 2 during Urzablock.

2 days ago I went to the local legacy tournament (33 players and the room was full of good decks) and to my big surprise I ended up going 4-0 winning against burn, belcher, goblins and UW control.

I posted this mainly to say thanks to you guys writing here, all the information I have found on this page has been priceless and really helped me get back into the game.

Fenrus
09-20-2012, 06:34 AM
What I think is The best version of this deck, runs Omniscience in addition to 2 to 3 Sneak Attacks. The lists are all over MTGO.
Sample list:

60 cards

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
20 lands

3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
6 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Show and Tell
2 Sneak Attack
34 other spells

I am very confused by this list. I don't think there's a point in running 2 Sneak attacks in what clearly wants to be an omniscience deck. By doing so, you're just diluting a seperate archetype in an attempt to create a hybrid which is more or less unwanted. Also, a sideboard would be extremely helpful when you post a list main-decking four burning wishes.

I'm not up-to-date on Omniscience, as I like playing Sneak Attack, but why not try two Intuitions instead of Sneak Attack? Or misdirections? Also, there is a thread to discuss Omniscience (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24583-DTB-Omniscience) now.

menace13
09-20-2012, 09:58 AM
I am very confused by this list. I don't think there's a point in running 2 Sneak attacks in what clearly wants to be an omniscience deck. By doing so, you're just diluting a seperate archetype in an attempt to create a hybrid which is more or less unwanted. Also, a sideboard would be extremely helpful when you post a list main-decking four burning wishes.

I'm not up-to-date on Omniscience, as I like playing Sneak Attack, but why not try two Intuitions instead of Sneak Attack? Or misdirections? Also, there is a thread to discuss Omniscience (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24583-DTB-Omniscience) now.

It's not my list. They belong to the players in the mtgo dailies. The links- decklists with sideboards- to the events are in my post above.

Also, It doesnt matter anymore what thread. Omnisci is the best thing you can show and tell out in the format and this is a show and tell deck. Oh, and all that diluting crap is tedious to answer. The list has many results by many pilots in a highly competitive meta that adjusts daily.

TheXile
09-20-2012, 01:35 PM
yeah, with the only small difference that Sneak attack can be casted from the hand paying 4 mana, but Omniscience is playable only with Show and Tell.

This part is huge. The Omniscience decks are one trick ponys (unless you revert to the Esper one). You have to resolve S&T in order to do anything with the deck. I like the sneak attack versions as you can hardcast the Sneak and win as well.

Esper3k
09-20-2012, 02:19 PM
I'm actually fairly curious about the hybridized version myself. Seems like it can work well. I'll have to give it a spin sometime.

Koby
09-20-2012, 02:22 PM
I'm actually fairly curious about the hybridized version myself. Seems like it can work well. I'll have to give it a spin sometime.

Turns out S&T -> fattie is just as miserable as it was about 2 months ago. Nothing has changed that much today. The problem is now everyone is gearing to beat the S&T plan.

The best course of action is to attack with Emrakul as soon as you put it into play. This means Omniscience or Sneak Attack.

Esper3k
09-20-2012, 03:21 PM
Turns out S&T -> fattie is just as miserable as it was about 2 months ago. Nothing has changed that much today. The problem is now everyone is gearing to beat the S&T plan.

The best course of action is to attack with Emrakul as soon as you put it into play. This means Omniscience or Sneak Attack.

Yeah, so that's why I'd like to try out a hybrid version where your primary goal is to S&T Omniscience or to use Sneak Attack?

Not sure how consistent it'd actually be, but if we can make it work where you can play the Omniscience combo while still having the Sneak Attack backup plan...

TheSleeper
09-25-2012, 12:22 AM
Just wanted to chime in and say congrats to all those doing well with the deck. When I stopped playing MtG (after moving away from my home city for work), I had been playing and winning with this deck. It just seemed like the most unfair. Low and behold a year and half later I come back and Wizards have gifted us with Griselbrand, making it even better!

Edit: I plan on playtesting the hybrid version with Omni & SA as I love decks with high threat density. In theory you'll have to mulligan less and are less boned if they counter one.

ThediscoPower
10-01-2012, 05:46 PM
With only 4 Force of Will and 3 more pseudocounters ? No thanx.

what's so wrong with that? I am pretty sure that you can compete with that exact counter suite, as long as you don't plan on staying with this counter suite post sideboard...

aluisiocsantos
10-02-2012, 11:20 AM
I'd just like to remember Sneak Attack has haste, therefore avoiding Karakas and etc.

TheSleeper
10-02-2012, 12:19 PM
I'd just like to remember Sneak Attack has haste, therefore avoiding Karakas and etc.

Not sure what you're trying to say but Karakas can still bounce a hasty Emrakul before it attacks. However if you have another red mana you can activate Sneak attack again and replay him while the Karakas is obviously tapped.

MeddlingMageGR
10-02-2012, 08:29 PM
what's so wrong with that? I am pretty sure that you can compete with that exact counter suite, as long as you don't plan on staying with this counter suite post sideboard...

My counter suite contains 4 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Flusterstorms. Its obviously stronger.

ThediscoPower
10-03-2012, 02:32 PM
My counter suite contains 4 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Flusterstorms. Its obviously stronger.

You are not awnsering the question here, as I could not care less about what you are playing. I am asking you about what makes you snap call a counter suite consisting of 4 FoW and 3 daze in the maindeck unplayable, to the point that you would not even consider reading the list Menace13 gave.

aluisiocsantos
10-03-2012, 02:40 PM
Not sure what you're trying to say but Karakas can still bounce a hasty Emrakul before it attacks. However if you have another red mana you can activate Sneak attack again and replay him while the Karakas is obviously tapped.
Yeah, exactly that. Though I guess you can cast Emrakul indefinately with omniscience, having the same result i nthe end. (with additional turns)

Fenrus
10-04-2012, 08:58 AM
You are not awnsering the question here, as I could not care less about what you are playing. I am asking you about what makes you snap call a counter suite consisting of 4 FoW and 3 daze in the maindeck unplayable, to the point that you would not even consider reading the list Menace13 gave.

I'll take this one, Meddlingmage.

The list above is an abomination(not in a good way.) You're trading counters and consistency to be cute and have the ability to surprise your opponent with the bastardization of two actual decks. A much more likely scenario is that you end up Mulliganing yourself into oblivion as you now have 10 cards that require show and tell to be good and 2 permanents which are only useful when you also have one of six creatures in your deck at the same time.

Yes, Show & Tell into Omniscience is fucking cool. It's also super powerful. But there is no reason to hybridize the deck when it works fine either as an effective 7 Show and Tell/omniscience build or a 4 sneak attack 4 show and tell build. To do a combination of both just marginalizes your deck and throws away disruption and protection so that occasionally you can win game one with omniscience and game two with sneak attack (much more likely that you'll be out countered and beaten by an average tempo player.)

menace13
10-04-2012, 01:12 PM
I'll take this one, Meddlingmage.

The list above is an abomination(not in a good way.) You're trading counters and consistency to be cute and have the ability to surprise your opponent with the bastardization of two actual decks. A much more likely scenario is that you end up Mulliganing yourself into oblivion as you now have 10 cards that require show and tell to be good and 2 permanents which are only useful when you also have one of six creatures in your deck at the same time.

Yes, Show & Tell into Omniscience is fucking cool. It's also super powerful. But there is no reason to hybridize the deck when it works fine either as an effective 7 Show and Tell/omniscience build or a 4 sneak attack 4 show and tell build. To do a combination of both just marginalizes your deck and throws away disruption and protection so that occasionally you can win game one with omniscience and game two with sneak attack (much more likely that you'll be out countered and beaten by an average tempo player.)
You and Mage are both wrong.

4 Fow 3 daze has proven to be a winner. It shows up enough in both Omni and Sneak deck listings. You can all talk shit like it's not good or will never win. But there's numbers supporting it on sites.

Secondly you arent really diluting a deck that centers around Show and Tell by adding more cards that enable the name sake card.

SnT is really bad against a host of decks currently unless you plop out Omni and maybe Sneak in both cases with Emrakul.


Omni is the best thing anyone can Show and Tell in the format.

Oh and that abomination thing. That deck has a ton of results on MTGO. It's doing very well. The pilots have all placed it more than you two have in your locals.

Fenrus
10-04-2012, 05:50 PM
You and Mage are both wrong.

4 Fow 3 daze has proven to be a winner. It shows up enough in both Omni and Sneak deck listings. You can all talk shit like it's not good or will never win. But there's numbers supporting it on sites.

Secondly you arent really diluting a deck that centers around Show and Tell by adding more cards that enable the name sake card.

SnT is really bad against a host of decks currently unless you plop out Omni and maybe Sneak in both cases with Emrakul.


Omni is the best thing anyone can Show and Tell in the format.

Oh and that abomination thing. That deck has a ton of results on MTGO. It's doing very well. The pilots have all placed it more than you two have in your locals.

Looking over results from actual legacy tournaments (those with more than the 8 people MTGO dailies) in the last month, Omni-Tell has indeed placed better than Sneak and Show. Most of those decks are running a very similar counter suite as well in 4 force and 3-4 daze, but with one big difference. They're all playing Overmaster. It's an anti-counter card that cantrips, which would likely allow you to play fewer counters and still do well versus decks with heavy counters.

I don't think that a Hybrid deck will ever win. It just isn't good. Your threat-to-cards that do something ratio is disproportionately high, leading to inconsistent hands all too often.

If omni is the best show and tell target in the format, then why is Sneak and Show still in the decks to beat section of this forum? Why is it still making top 16s in 100+ person legacy tournaments (SCG: Opens?)

Results from MTGO are kind of worthless. 8-man dailies for legacy fire maybe once a day, if at all. And there is no guarantee that the people in them are actually high quality players or even playing top-tier decks. Not to mention that the economy of MTGO, where force of will is over $100 and Candelabra of Tawnos is less than $5 is nothing like real life. One of the better magic players I know from my locals plays LED-less belcher on MTGO to great effect because he doesn't want to shell out $100 for Lion's-Eye diamonds(A deck that he would never take to an actual tournament.) Which just goes to show that you don't need a top tier deck to win in MTGO dailies.

As for my local meta, which I feel is kind of a personal attack, it is infinitely more evolved than most. On average we get anywhere from 12-20 players playing 20 seperate archetypes. Last week we had fourteen people playing the following: Sneak and Show, Maverick, Esper Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Nic Fit, BUG Delver, Imperial Painter, Belcher, Enchantress, Affinity, RDW, Goblins, Combo Elves, and Merfolk. I'd say that's a pretty varied and strong meta, wouldn't you?

Koby
10-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Results from MTGO are kind of worthless. 8-man dailies for legacy fire maybe once a day, if at all. And there is no guarantee that the people in them are actually high quality players or even playing top-tier decks. Not to mention that the economy of MTGO, where force of will is over $100 and Candelabra of Tawnos is less than $5 is nothing like real life. One of the better magic players I know from my locals plays LED-less belcher on MTGO to great effect because he doesn't want to shell out $100 for Lion's-Eye diamonds(A deck that he would never take to an actual tournament.) Which just goes to show that you don't need a top tier deck to win in MTGO dailies.


You had a point until you said this.

MTGO Daily Events require at MINIMUM 16 people.
Caliber of players:
LSV deck (http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=523352)
Paul Cheon deck (http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=542294)
Sam Black (Vicalis)
Owen Turtenwald (qazwsxedcrfvtgb)
Dave Williams (RUG Doctor)
Ari Lax (armlx)
Caleb Durward (CalebD)
plus many more who aren't as familiar but just as good.

MTGO tournaments are a fine metric, provided you understand what you're reading.

I think SCG tournaments have also shown you don't need LEDs to win with Belcher. And, yet, they still win in 200+ person tournaments.

Fenrus
10-04-2012, 07:16 PM
You had a point until you said this.

MTGO Daily Events require at MINIMUM 16 people.
Caliber of players:
LSV deck (http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=523352)
Paul Cheon deck (http://www.mtgstats.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=542294)
Sam Black (Vicalis)
Owen Turtenwald (qazwsxedcrfvtgb)
Dave Williams (RUG Doctor)
Ari Lax (armlx)
Caleb Durward (CalebD)
plus many more who aren't as familiar but just as good.

MTGO tournaments are a fine metric, provided you understand what you're reading.

I think SCG tournaments have also shown you don't need LEDs to win with Belcher. And, yet, they still win in 200+ person tournaments.

I was unaware that they required sixteen people. My apologies, I don't play MTGO all that often. And when I do, I draft.


And there is no guarantee that the people in them are actually high quality players or even playing top-tier decks.

As I said, there is no guarantee that the people playing in the MTGO events that day were pros, nor is there a guarantee that they weren't testing homebrews, drunk streaming on twitch, or actually trying as a MTGO daily is worth a finite amount of tix or MTGO product. There isn't an actual purse to claim so people may not be playing it as seriously.

LSV's Omniscience deck is pretty cool. I especially like the fact that it is not playing Sneak Attack. He took #1.

ThediscoPower
10-05-2012, 12:10 AM
I'll take this one, Meddlingmage.

The list above is an abomination(not in a good way.) You're trading counters and consistency to be cute and have the ability to surprise your opponent with the bastardization of two actual decks. A much more likely scenario is that you end up Mulliganing yourself into oblivion as you now have 10 cards that require show and tell to be good and 2 permanents which are only useful when you also have one of six creatures in your deck at the same time.

Yes, Show & Tell into Omniscience is fucking cool. It's also super powerful. But there is no reason to hybridize the deck when it works fine either as an effective 7 Show and Tell/omniscience build or a 4 sneak attack 4 show and tell build. To do a combination of both just marginalizes your deck and throws away disruption and protection so that occasionally you can win game one with omniscience and game two with sneak attack (much more likely that you'll be out countered and beaten by an average tempo player.)

ok...so you explained to me why the list in itself is so bad just by looking(in your humble opinion), but you see, there is a simple problem in all this paragraph. You do not explain to me why Meddlingmage snap calls that he doesn't want to read a list that contains 4 Fow and 3 daze as the maindeck counter suite (let it be an omniscience list, or a sneak attack list, or whatever other variation of the deck you might want to imagine). What I want to know were his points on the issue. Now yes, I think he is wrong in his reasoning (to this day, non existant, shall I add), but I still want the hear his view on this, as his points have the potential to be very valid, and show me something I never saw before. so yeah...


now that this is out of the way, lets keep going with other things I do not agree with :


Looking over results from actual legacy tournaments (those with more than the 8 people MTGO dailies) in the last month, Omni-Tell has indeed placed better than Sneak and Show. Most of those decks are running a very similar counter suite as well in 4 force and 3-4 daze, but with one big difference. They're all playing Overmaster. It's an anti-counter card that cantrips, which would likely allow you to play fewer counters and still do well versus decks with heavy counters.

what's the point of this paragraph? because if you are arguing aganst the list Menace13 wrote down here, and if that list is similar to the ones that we have seen in those dailies so far, these lists are all running overmaster too. like, all of them, except 1 guy, who was running a gitaxian probe instead. so, yeah... do you mind clarifying? you'll also gonna have to say more than that to make that theory make any sense at all, because it's not really the first time I see that kind of counter suite played in the first place (as such dream halls comes to my mind, as a deck that played 4 fows, 3 dazes). Even then, the first omnitell list played by Simon Groetzen in GP Gent is literraly only playing 4 Fow, 4 dazes and that's it. people only recently understood that this card even existed at all, and it could be found with a burning wish...

also this is not the reason why 4 FoW and 3 dazes can work imo, btw. the reason is, imo, more in the lines of the fact that you usually don't need more in game 1 to have your threats resolving, not when you have access to 12 cantrips to have those counters in your hands at the right time, or to have a way to combo again. Understand that even controlish deck don't just stare at you the whole freaking game, with 2 forces and 4 spells piereces and 1 counterspell in their hands and 5 lands untaped and nothing on the board, especially on game 1 when they have so many dead cards against you and usually what? 9-10 counters maindeck? (in my case, I know i used to play 4 FoW, 2 pierce, 2 snare, 1 counterspell in my stoneblade, which is close to be what those decks are usually playing. But I haven't touched that deck for some time). but that's another debate.


LSV's Omniscience deck is pretty cool. I especially like the fact that it is not playing Sneak Attack. He took #1.

that's like what? 2 months ago? when people thought that omniscience was just a big bad joke. Before people started playing things like oblivion rings in side, against which omnitell is just bad. now, if you ask me, people being afraid of omntell just means that either omnitell players start trying new stuff other than resolving a show and tell to win (like, for instance, a sneak attack, as we are starting to see), or that stock sneak show will become the better option (because oblivion rings and angel of despairs don't really stop a normal sneak attack strategy). but that's just my opinion.



One of the better magic players I know from my locals plays LED-less belcher on MTGO to great effect because he doesn't want to shell out $100 for Lion's-Eye diamonds(A deck that he would never take to an actual tournament.) Which just goes to show that you don't need a top tier deck to win in MTGO dailies.

You actually don't need 4 leds to play that deck, according to scg...so your point was?



As for my local meta, which I feel is kind of a personal attack, it is infinitely more evolved than most. On average we get anywhere from 12-20 players playing 20 seperate archetypes. Last week we had fourteen people playing the following: Sneak and Show, Maverick, Esper Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Nic Fit, BUG Delver, Imperial Painter, Belcher, Enchantress, Affinity, RDW, Goblins, Combo Elves, and Merfolk. I'd say that's a pretty varied and strong meta, wouldn't you?

well, isn't that what most metas just look like nowadays (minus imperial painter)? I must confess that I have no idea what it looks like outside our big towns here tho, but you just described my meta when there is a tourny for more than a bunch of boosters in every big town i walked in. I guess that makes my happy and that i am generalising too much.

Now, as an ending note, understand that I agree with most of what you say, but my initial question was very specific, to the point that I did not care about the actual list. That, and just saying unverified facts (sometimes, straight up wrong) is something I just hate.

menace13
10-05-2012, 02:56 AM
As for my local meta, which I feel is kind of a personal attack, it is infinitely more evolved than most. On average we get anywhere from 12-20 players playing 20 seperate archetypes. Last week we had fourteen people playing the following: Sneak and Show, Maverick, Esper Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, Nic Fit, BUG Delver, Imperial Painter, Belcher, Enchantress, Affinity, RDW, Goblins, Combo Elves, and Merfolk. I'd say that's a pretty varied and strong meta, wouldn't you?

MTGO is exactly like what you just wrote here, except... with more sharks, and people adjust everyday, not weekly or w/e you guys play, and it's from a pool of hunderds/thousands(whta lgs has that?). 16-20 ppl is an average daily.

Sneak Attack is still in the DTB because half those (recent)placings are Omni decks not attributed correctly.

Everything Koby said is correct.

You don't have to like any lists, they are not mine, I copied it from a daily and solely for its resemblance to the other winning SNT lists.

Also, everything you wrote below is asinine:


Results from MTGO are kind of worthless. 8-man dailies for legacy fire maybe once a day, if at all. And there is no guarantee that the people in them are actually high quality players or even playing top-tier decks. Not to mention that the economy of MTGO, where force of will is over $100 and Candelabra of Tawnos is less than $5 is nothing like real life. One of the better magic players I know from my locals plays LED-less belcher on MTGO to great effect because he doesn't want to shell out $100 for Lion's-Eye diamonds(A deck that he would never take to an actual tournament.) Which just goes to show that you don't need a top tier deck to win in MTGO dailies.


I dont even know where to start.
Who plays at your local, exactly? Some guy you know that is really good but we dont know him, right?

More words that mean little:


As I said, there is no guarantee that the people playing in the MTGO events that day were pros, nor is there a guarantee that they weren't testing homebrews, drunk streaming on twitch, or actually trying as a MTGO daily is worth a finite amount of tix or MTGO product. There isn't an actual purse to claim so people may not be playing it as seriously.
.

I'm sure people are always trying to win when it's for money. The same things can be said of your locals

MeddlingMageGR
10-05-2012, 04:53 PM
ok...so you explained to me why the list in itself is so bad just by looking(in your humble opinion), but you see, there is a simple problem in all this paragraph. You do not explain to me why Meddlingmage snap calls that he doesn't want to read a list that contains 4 Fow and 3 daze as the maindeck counter suite (let it be an omniscience list, or a sneak attack list, or whatever other variation of the deck you might want to imagine). What I want to know were his points on the issue. Now yes, I think he is wrong in his reasoning (to this day, non existant, shall I add), but I still want the hear his view on this, as his points have the potential to be very valid, and show me something I never saw before. so yeah...




Its simple. I cannot trust Daze. Daze as I mentioned before, is a psefto-counterspell. Its very easy for my opponent to overtake it. And that makes it a dead card in my hand. Probably not in the first game, but surely in the 2nd. Just like I do, when I face Dazes. I always leave 1 mana open. Not to mention that in late game, its useless. In antithesis with Spell Pierce and much more with Flusterstorm. After 12 years of Magic, I still can't understand why ppl play this spell.
Besides that, how I can fight counter-wars and discard spells? Especially discard. 1st turn > Thoughtseize, 2nd Turn > Hymn to Tourach? How many Islands should I return to my hand ? Even If I play 2nd, I feel security when my opening hand contains a Flusterstorm or a Spell Pierce. With Daze no. After 2-3-4 rounds the possibilities to counter a cc1 spell, are almost ZERO.

About your opinion that "X players play THIS list with 4 Fow and 3 Daze with great results" I feel the need to answer these :

a) Most of the ppl just copy a decklist, trusting other people's judgment. They dont think, they just copy/paste.
b) Personally I prefer to hear opinions and thoughts, judge them by myself, and then decide what I like to play and what I DONT like to play. "Like" means "find it logically enough in my mind". Daze seems to be not so logical to me. It has "holes". I prefer to play something more "stable".
c) Daze is not a winning card in this deck. The main idea of the deck remains great, even if you use 3 Daze or 3 Flusterstorms or even 3 "original" Counterspells. So, a great deck gets great results. Fair Enough.
d) My current decklist has 61 cards, and 9 creatures. 3 Emrakuls, 3 Griselbrands, 3 Progenitus. Why? Because I dont force my mind to get in a tin. I open it and I think : Are 4 Emrakuls and 4 Griselbrands enough to win? Some times no. My losses, showed me that im vulnerable in some cards, like Mangara of Corondor, Oblivion Ring, Maze of Ith, Karakas. I have even lost from a Tradewind Rider.. lol!! With Progenitus I feel safety (again). Its 10dmg in the head, no matter what. You have 2 rounds to respond. Its the best target for Show and Tell, and has won me many games. If you ask me If I feel that its missing a 4th Emrakul and a 4th Griselbrand... mmm, no I dont miss them at all. They play too and have won games with them.. obviously!! Each creature has a role. Plus that Progenitus can be discarded for FoW. I have done it many times.
Nowadays magic is full of powerful cards. When you dont run removals, at least run decent counterspells.

ThediscoPower
10-05-2012, 10:14 PM
Its simple. I cannot trust Daze. Daze as I mentioned before, is a psefto-counterspell. Its very easy for my opponent to overtake it. And that makes it a dead card in my hand. Probably not in the first game, but surely in the 2nd. Just like I do, when I face Dazes. I always leave 1 mana open. Not to mention that in late game, its useless. In antithesis with Spell Pierce and much more with Flusterstorm. After 12 years of Magic, I still can't understand why ppl play this spell.

now you see, the problem is, if you even bothered to read the first comment, what I am saying is simply that a maindeck counter suite of 4 forces and 3 dazes can be correct, AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THAT SUITE GAME 2-3. In other words, daze is the spell that just comes out a lot post sideboard, simply because you are always looking to upgrade it. so yes the point is that daze is played as a good all around GAME 1 counter, in a list that actually doesn't run too many mana sources. (also aren't usual sneak show decks running no flusterstorms anyways, and running misdirection instead along with a bunch of spell pierces?) Then again, some would simply say that if you force your opponent to play around daze the whole game, then it has done it's job of delaying your opponent.


Besides that, how I can fight counter-wars and discard spells? Especially discard. 1st turn > Thoughtseize, 2nd Turn > Hymn to Tourach? How many Islands should I return to my hand ? Even If I play 2nd, I feel security when my opening hand contains a Flusterstorm or a Spell Pierce. With Daze no. After 2-3-4 rounds the possibilities to counter a cc1 spell, are almost ZERO.

you are not playing the same game here. If the deck is explosive enough, daze is usually a hard counter against any kind of counters if you are going off early. If it gets to late game, and for some reason you could not go off before, then shouldn't you have a well sculpted hand anyways? should YOU not be the one actually able to play around HIS spell pierces at that point? I don't know, but at theses points, I found it possible to just pay for their pierces and their dazes anyways, because I did not need the extra mana I had, and because if the pressure isn't strong enough on you, you can actually afford to just build your hand and build your mana base. (now, understand that this is all after playing an omniscience deck, and not sneak show, as the list that we are talking about is a list closer to omnitell then sneak show). Now, as far as discard spells go, I really don't understand your point. Usually, when they are countering the first thoughseize in the first place, it usually means that they either have a really good hand, or a really bad one and they don't want you to know. I found chosing to counter or not to be more in founction of what you can do to win in the following turns, how much you can hide with brainstorm, and how you can get to put an enchantment in play (omni, sneak does the same thing I guess), as theses decks rarely have a way to break your enchantments anyways.


b) Personally I prefer to hear opinions and thoughts, judge them by myself, and then decide what I like to play and what I DONT like to play. "Like" means "find it logically enough in my mind". Daze seems to be not so logical to me. It has "holes". I prefer to play something more "stable".

here's where our way differ. I don't like judging stuff by only ''trying to logicaly reason'' them, because, lets face it : I do not think i have a good enough judgement to do this properly, even after all those years. My judgement is usually biased. Most of the time, when I try to do this, I just end up not seeing things, and fail (not always, but it happens). This is why, instead of that, I just try cards. Build decks differently, and test them out in my group to see how it works out. if it works, I buy it. If it doesn't, then I don't. simple enough. Takes time tho. But I guess I have some time to lose recently. Oh well...


d) My current decklist has 61 cards, and 9 creatures. 3 Emrakuls, 3 Griselbrands, 3 Progenitus. Why? Because I dont force my mind to get in a tin. I open it and I think : Are 4 Emrakuls and 4 Griselbrands enough to win? Some times no. My losses, showed me that im vulnerable in some cards, like Mangara of Corondor, Oblivion Ring, Maze of Ith, Karakas. I have even lost from a Tradewind Rider.. lol!! With Progenitus I feel safety (again). Its 10dmg in the head, no matter what. You have 2 rounds to respond. Its the best target for Show and Tell, and has won me many games. If you ask me If I feel that its missing a 4th Emrakul and a 4th Griselbrand... mmm, no I dont miss them at all. They play too and have won games with them.. obviously!! Each creature has a role. Plus that Progenitus can be discarded for FoW. I have done it many times.

I actually agree with trying out progenitus again. it could very well be the best way to respond to those pesky oblivion rings, and angels and all those other shenanigans. Now, If I remember well, the problem with that guy was that 10/10 wasn't enough to race the other decks, at some point. I don't know what the situation looks like now tho. definatly something to test out.

MeddlingMageGR
10-06-2012, 10:32 AM
now you see, the problem is, if you even bothered to read the first comment, what I am saying is simply that a maindeck counter suite of 4 forces and 3 dazes can be correct, AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THAT SUITE GAME 2-3. In other words, daze is the spell that just comes out a lot post sideboard, simply because you are always looking to upgrade it. so yes the point is that daze is played as a good all around GAME 1 counter, in a list that actually doesn't run too many mana sources. (also aren't usual sneak show decks running no flusterstorms anyways, and running misdirection instead along with a bunch of spell pierces?) Then again, some would simply say that if you force your opponent to play around daze the whole game, then it has done it's job of delaying your opponent.





So, the whole argument is not about "what is the best counter suite for Sneak and Show", but "what's the best tricky way to follow, playing Sneak and Show" :) If I follow you in that, I must find 3 slots from my sideaboard that is already full :) All this reminds me a football coach that keeps in bench his 2 best players, and put them into play in the second half, just to surprise the opponent... Its obvious that i'm not interesting to follow that path. I came to fight with the best weapons I can have. I thought you did the same...
And the conclusion is that If everybody play 3 Dazes in MTGO, how many of them know that this is just a trick ? All these copypasters are aware of that? Have they a little mind to think ? Of course not. In my country there is a saying : "1 billion of flies, are eating shit. They must know something..."

ThediscoPower
10-06-2012, 02:42 PM
So, the whole argument is not about "what is the best counter suite for Sneak and Show", but "what's the best tricky way to follow, playing Sneak and Show" :) If I follow you in that, I must find 3 slots from my sideaboard that is already full :) All this reminds me a football coach that keeps in bench his 2 best players, and put them into play in the second half, just to surprise the opponent... Its obvious that i'm not interesting to follow that path. I came to fight with the best weapons I can have. I thought you did the same...
And the conclusion is that If everybody play 3 Dazes in MTGO, how many of them know that this is just a trick ? All these copypasters are aware of that? Have they a little mind to think ? Of course not. In my country there is a saying : "1 billion of flies, are eating shit. They must know something..."

look, you still don't understand the fact that I am talking about some kind of omnitell list in which the best catchall weapon (in game 1) is daze, imo, and it is ok to have only that counter suite to start with. Because you don't have enough mana to run anything like spell pierce without having to play a different, slower type of game, because misdirection is too taxing for that list. Now, i will say it again, i feel it is the best weapon in a list that is made after the shell of onmitell. I am still talking in regard of the list Menace13 has provided, because that was the point of the whole conversation anyways. If you want to know, I am right now trying out a list that looks like it, to see what it looks like. It is also interesting to note that I am not really seeing the troubles you described, so far, with the deck doing not so bad in most pratice games against different decks in the meta, and winning the last weekly I played in. Of course, it doesn't mean much, until I can try it for at least quite a few more games, but I have what I have so far. Now, I have no idea how sneak show should play nowadays, I don't play that deck right now, and don't plan in resleeving it in the near future anyways, unless people get so afraid of omnitell that they just forget sneak show.

It's also not about suprising the opponnent, but the act of upgrading your protection package for the right situation, if needed. If that's not how you understand it, then I do not know how I can try to explain it better. I also don't think I told you to follow other people in what they do, or don't do. In fact, I told you quite the opposite, if I read my own post well.

However, if you really had to ask me, and excuse me for that, but with the amount of misinformed information and unverified information you just wrote in the last posts, I am not very inclined to eat your shit either,if I can reuse your expression. I actually almost think those people on MTGO are more informed than you actually are. Now, I am not saying that I am all knowing (in fact, the reason I wanted to have a conversation at all was to see if I could learn something here), but more like that, so far, you are not talking about the list we are debating about (different of sneak show, to which you keep refering to), give lackter reasons (sometimes misinformed, and entirely relying on what you think, and not actual practice) to why you would not try a list that IS NOT sneak show, but runs force and daze, and that you do not bother to actually argue with what I say, but twist what I write instead. Think what you want, but I think I am just done trying to argue with a wall that doesn't actually try to prove me wrong with actual arguments on the actual subject.

Have a nice day

MeddlingMageGR
10-06-2012, 09:03 PM
Please don't be rude, even if you disagree with me. We all come here to have a conversation. Wa cannot all agree in the same things.
The post here is about Sneak Attack, and not for OmniTell. Remember that.

ThediscoPower
10-07-2012, 12:27 AM
Please don't be rude, even if you disagree with me. We all come here to have a conversation. Wa cannot all agree in the same things.
The post here is about Sneak Attack, and not for OmniTell. Remember that.

fun fact, I actually found out that I was NOT talking to that fenrus guy during the lasts few posts. that's...akward? i was convinced that you were playing dumb with me, until I actually took time to read the names

Still don't agree with the fact that you just won't bother reading Menace13's list without actually trying it, or think about it first, especially when that counter suite does look adequate, as it is, because your reason doesn't seem that valid for that exact situation.

menace13
10-07-2012, 06:15 AM
So, the whole argument is not about "what is the best counter suite for Sneak and Show", but "what's the best tricky way to follow, playing Sneak and Show" :) If I follow you in that, I must find 3 slots from my sideaboard that is already full :) All this reminds me a football coach that keeps in bench his 2 best players, and put them into play in the second half, just to surprise the opponent... Its obvious that i'm not interesting to follow that path. I came to fight with the best weapons I can have. I thought you did the same...
And the conclusion is that If everybody play 3 Dazes in MTGO, how many of them know that this is just a trick ? All these copypasters are aware of that? Have they a little mind to think ? Of course not. In my country there is a saying : "1 billion of flies, are eating shit. They must know something..."

What?

No, really, what?

All I got from that was: 3 Dazes are shit for flies because tricky football coach.

MeddlingMageGR
10-07-2012, 07:49 AM
What?

No, really, what?

All I got from that was: 3 Dazes are shit for flies because tricky football coach.

hahahahahahahaha.... 1000++++ :laugh:

Togores
10-07-2012, 05:13 PM
d) My current decklist has 61 cards, and 9 creatures. 3 Emrakuls, 3 Griselbrands, 3 Progenitus. Why? Because I dont force my mind to get in a tin. I open it and I think : Are 4 Emrakuls and 4 Griselbrands enough to win? Some times no. My losses, showed me that im vulnerable in some cards, like Mangara of Corondor, Oblivion Ring, Maze of Ith, Karakas. I have even lost from a Tradewind Rider.. lol!! With Progenitus I feel safety (again). Its 10dmg in the head, no matter what. You have 2 rounds to respond. Its the best target for Show and Tell, and has won me many games. If you ask me If I feel that its missing a 4th Emrakul and a 4th Griselbrand... mmm, no I dont miss them at all. They play too and have won games with them.. obviously!! Each creature has a role. Plus that Progenitus can be discarded for FoW. I have done it many times.
Nowadays magic is full of powerful cards. When you dont run removals, at least run decent counterspells.

Thanks for this

And here is a report wining with 61 cards Sneak and Show

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24799-1st-Place-with-61-Cards-Sneak-and-Show&p=678150#post678150

MeddlingMageGR
10-08-2012, 08:59 PM
Ouaou!!! I feel a little proud :D:D:D Congradulations!!

Michael Keller
10-11-2012, 10:01 AM
I think I'll run Sneak and Show tonight at the local. Might even toss a few different trinkets in there just to play with and see how it does.

Togores
11-14-2012, 02:24 AM
Thanks for this

And here is a report wining with 61 cards Sneak and Show

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24799-1st-Place-with-61-Cards-Sneak-and-Show&p=678150#post678150

Won this weekend another time the month league with the same md. Only i changed the side to beat more control decks. And because usualy there are only ~3 graveyard decks and by not so goid players i put out all grave hate.
My sb was
2 boseiju
2 pyroblast
2 reb
3 vendilion
3 echoing truth
3 blood moon

kaosjr
12-08-2012, 10:47 PM
I recently top 8'd the SCG Legacy Open in Baltimore. Here's my list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51289 (http://http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51289). Misdirection was insane as well as defense grids from the board. I recently cut 1 intuition in the main for the 4th griselbrand and I believe I cut a spell pierce for the 2nd misdirection.

Griselpuff
12-08-2012, 11:58 PM
Congrats Zach! What do you think about Sneak and Show vs. Omni-Tell and Hive Mind? Which MUs do you see as more favored and less favored for each?

Also, I totally agree with the Misdirections and D-Grids. So much countermagic and discard running around these days.

kaosjr
12-09-2012, 02:22 AM
Congrats Zach! What do you think about Sneak and Show vs. Omni-Tell and Hive Mind? Which MUs do you see as more favored and less favored for each?

Also, I totally agree with the Misdirections and D-Grids. So much countermagic and discard running around these days.

I see my version to be much more streamlined and more threat heavy. The omniscience versions are generally forced to play less countermagic due to having to include burning wishes, etc. The meta right now has no hate for this type of deck so I wanted to be as consistent as possible with as much countermagic as I could. The omniscience versions are usually trying to assemble a 3 card combo where my version is only 2 that are all 4 ofs. I even tested against the omniscience version and it is very lopsided in my favor. They can only win off of show and tell where you have sneak attack to haste your creatures. Basically all you have to do is drop your emrakul into play after they show and tell and untap and annihilate them. Every 6-7 games they will have their 3 card combo and enough countermagic to push through, but I still found the matchup to be at least 70-30.

kaosjr
12-09-2012, 02:26 AM
Congrats Zach! What do you think about Sneak and Show vs. Omni-Tell and Hive Mind? Which MUs do you see as more favored and less favored for each?

Also, I totally agree with the Misdirections and D-Grids. So much countermagic and discard running around these days.

Misdirection was awesome. I got to do some sweet stuff like:

- misdirection a maelstrom pulse on my sneak attack to their flipped delver.
- misdirection a thoughtseize to make them discard a Bob and reveal that they had no counterspells so I could go for it next turn.
- misdirection a hymn to tourach to my opponent
- misdirection a counterspell while at one life (couldn't force of will because it would kill me)

There were probably others but those stood out the most

Esper3k
12-10-2012, 02:07 AM
Sneaky Show just won SCG Las Vegas!

r3dd09
12-10-2012, 02:47 AM
Sneaky Show just won SCG Las Vegas!

It was only a matter of time ;)

lordofthepit
12-10-2012, 05:01 AM
Sneaky Show just won SCG Las Vegas!

Certainly not the first time Sneak Attack has won a big event, but I do recall someone said he'd eat his Black Lotus if that ever happened. Anyone know if he stayed true to his word?

JPA
12-10-2012, 05:51 PM
Certainly not the first time Sneak Attack has won a big event

The 3rd time ;) Jonathan Hickerson in May at SCG Nashville, Chris Bergeson at GenCon and now Richard Centanni. It makes Top 8 pretty often, but winning a whole tournament is rather rare.

Congratulations to Richard, maybe he reads this and shares some of his thoughts about how the deck worked in the tournament. :-)

Koby
12-10-2012, 06:04 PM
I can't comment on the rest of his rounds, but Top 4 match Game 2 went like this:

Probed/Duressed for Blood Moon.
SnT's Griselbrand - bounced with Karakas, draw 14 cards. Discard ~10 lands leaving Sneak Attack, Grisel, Emmy, Fow, blue card, Volc <Ponder?>
Duress'd - counter with FOW. Duressed again same turn, taking Sneak.
Plays land - Ponder into: Flusterstorm, SnT, Sneak Attack, stack SnT-Sneak-Flusterstorm and drawing Flusterstorm.
Flusterstorm Infernal Tutor on Storm 5.
Cast Sneak Attack, activate to put Emmy (Karakas'd) put in Emmy again, putting me down to 1.
I play Fetch, go.
Sneak Grisel GG

Richard got very unlucky with the Griselbrand draws, but the Ponder made up for it.

Griselpuff
12-10-2012, 06:14 PM
A couple questions on sb choices:

1. How useful is Surgical Extraction and when is it brought in? I presume vs. other Show and Tell decks, but what about vs. Miracles or EsperBlade? It seems like Defense Grid and REBs are just stronger
2. How about Wipe Away? Obviously it seems good vs. Humility, but isn't a better strategy to win before it gets to that point? I can see potential uses vs. CounterTop lock, but again, I think winning earlier and using proactive disruption (Defense Grid) with cheap counterspells seems better.
3. I presume Shattering Spree and Ancient Grudge are for Pithing Needle and Chalices etc., I think Spree is probably better.
4. I presume Stifles are for Karakas and Jace, but it seems like Karakas/Needle themselves are stronger.
5. When is Through the Breach useful? I guess when you want business spells 9 and 10? Maybe against decks with a lot of counterspells? Someone explain this to me?

I'm coming over from playing Hive Mind and I'm thinking about picking up this deck. Basically it seems to me like the easiest way to win the blue match-up is to resolve a Defense Grid (or make them waste their counters on it) and then cast Show or Sneak.

Vs. the fair decks, Pithing Needle and Karakas seem sufficient.

Fenrus
12-10-2012, 11:06 PM
A couple questions on sb choices:

1. How useful is Surgical Extraction and when is it brought in? I presume vs. other Show and Tell decks, but what about vs. Miracles or EsperBlade? It seems like Defense Grid and REBs are just stronger
Didn't Run it. Felt that Grafdigger's cage was sufficient as GY hate and is also decent against GSZ deckis. Defense grid would be very good versus Stoneblade. Might test that in the sideboard...


2. How about Wipe Away? Obviously it seems good vs. Humility, but isn't a better strategy to win before it gets to that point? I can see potential uses vs. CounterTop lock, but again, I think winning earlier and using proactive disruption (Defense Grid) with cheap counterspells seems better. Wipe Away is great in that it deals with any problematic permanent, especially when you are on the Show and Tell plan. Defense Grid --> SNT --> Emrakul will win a truck load of games, but when they put humility, detention sphere, ensnaring bridge, etc in off of show and tell you can be in serious shit.


3. I presume Shattering Spree and Ancient Grudge are for Pithing Needle and Chalices etc., I think Spree is probably better.
Shattering spree is another catch all. I've been a fan of it since I was playing vintage in that it gets passed things like Chalice of the Void. It's also an insane spell versus affinity and is a lot more useful versus TES than misdirection's in that you can blow up LEDs, Petals, and Chrome moxes if they haven't gone off yet.


4. I presume Stifles are for Karakas and Jace, but it seems like Karakas/Needle themselves are stronger.
Stifles are for Karakas, Jace, Fetch lands, Pact trigger's on upkeep against hive mind, against any spell with Storm, against Wasteland, etc. They are really good and I'd be lost without them.


5. When is Through the Breach useful? I guess when you want business spells 9 and 10? Maybe against decks with a lot of counterspells? Someone explain this to me?
It's incredibly useful when you know they side in something to fuck you over with. Often times players will hold humility, ensnaring bridge, etc, waiting for you to cast show and tell so that they can put it into play without presenting an oppurtunity for you to counter it. It is also extremely relevant in the mirror where I often -2 Show and Tell and +2 Through the Breach, thus bypassing the chance that they put anything into play.


I'm coming over from playing Hive Mind and I'm thinking about picking up this deck. Basically it seems to me like the easiest way to win the blue match-up is to resolve a Defense Grid (or make them waste their counters on it) and then cast Show or Sneak. Defense grid could be very good. I'm not sure. It's a double edged sword, though. Be careful when playing it.


Vs. the fair decks, Pithing Needle and Karakas seem sufficient.Probably. I think our toughest match-up is probably Esper Stoneblade or the psuedo mirror.

Griselpuff
12-10-2012, 11:21 PM
Really? I'm fairly sure the worst match-ups would be disruption heavy Team America and RUG.

Fenrus
12-10-2012, 11:43 PM
Really? I'm fairly sure the worst match-ups would be disruption heavy Team America and RUG.
All of their non-FOW counters are pay counters. Daze, Spell Pierce, etc. All you need to beat that is patience and sol lands. Not to mention they almost always run few or no basics and just die to blood moon. That's my opinion, though. I've never had a problem beating RUG or BUG and lose handily to Stoneblade every time I play against a decent pilot.

JPA
12-11-2012, 09:40 AM
Fenrus, which decks did you play against in the tournament and how did you side against them? Did Repeal do its work? How was the countersuite?

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Griselpuff
12-11-2012, 10:39 AM
I'm pretty sure it's a lot worse than you're making it out to be. If they land a turn 1 Delver or Goose, you won't have the luxury of waiting. Blood Moon is good, but often times they can just kill you with their turn 1 creature. If it's BUG they have discard too.

Fenrus
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Fenrus, which decks did you play against in the tournament and how did you side against them? Did Repeal do its work? How was the countersuite?

Would love to hear your thoughts.

I played against Burn Twice, Rest in peace miracles, Stone Blade, UR Delver, and Belcher. My loss was against Stone Blade in round 5. I drew with AJ Sacher to get into Top 8 in the last round. I didn't write down what my round three or four opponents were playing, I know one was RIP Miracles but I can't remember what the other match was.

I played Repeal as I was originally going to play Cloudpost, and when I took that apart to put Sneak and Show back together I was left with a choice--Two Repeals or two Preordains. I never really liked preordain in here, either. I think Repeal was pretty amazing all day. I used it to bounce flipped delvers, various creatures/threats to buy time, I often had it in hand to bounce Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, etc in Games 2 and 3 but my opponents never drew them. I also used it to bounce my own Lotus Petals at EOT to dig when needed or to bounce their 7th Permanent before swinging in with Emrakul to prevent a lethal alpha strike. I don't think I'll be taking them out any time soon.

The countersuite was really good. I especially loved the main deck flusterstorms. Mindbreak trap saved my ass in round seven versus belcher when he had the ability to make fourteen goblins on turn one through a force of will in game three. I would not have made top 8 without it.

Sideboarding:
Against Burn on the draw: -2 Daze -2 Show and Tell -1 Repeal +1 Spell Pierce +2 Through the Breach +1 Wipe Away +1 Shattering Spree. On the play I sided the Dazes back in for Pierce/Wipe away

Rip Miracles: -2 Daze +2 REB

UR Delver: Cannot remember, sorry.

Stoneblade: -2 daze -2 Show and Tell -1 Repeal +2 REB +1 Through the Breach +2 Blood Moon

Belcher: -2 Misdirection -2 Repeal +2 Stifle +1 Mindbreak Trap +1 Spell Pierce

Storm: -2 Misdirection -2 Repeal +2 Blood Moon +1 Mindbreak Trap +1 Spell Pierce

Hive Mind: -2 Show and Tell -2 Repeal -2 Misdirection +2 Through the Breach +1 Shattering Spree +1 Spell Pierce +2 Stifle

I think that's how I sideboarded in the matches I can remember. Sorry, there may be some errors.

JPA
12-12-2012, 06:53 AM
Thanks a lot for sharing this. :-)

Jodzilla
12-12-2012, 06:43 PM
Im new to this deck, gonna play it at a tournament this upcoming weekend. I am curious what kind of hand you generally want to keep or throw back? Is it you want either 1 fattie in your hand or 1 SnT? Or would you rather have a hand of cantrips? Or throw the hands back if you don't have a cantrip?

Water_Wizard
12-12-2012, 11:51 PM
Depends on your opponent.

Against a deck with Stifle (if you are on the draw), you'll want an Island or multiple fetches.

Against a deck with Wasteland, you'll also want a basic Island.

Against discard decks, hands with Brainstorm are more powerful (so you can hide threats).

Against fast aggro decks with minimal disruption, you'll want a fast hand.

Against slower decks, you can opt for a fast hand if you have protection or a slower hand with lots of cantrips so that you can sculpt your hand.

Generally, a hand with 1-2 lands, 1-2 cantrips, 1-2 counterspells, and 1-2 combo cards is a good hand, but I'm quite sure you could apply this statement to 90% of the decks in Legacy and be correct.

You almost always want access to a blue mana source. Also, be mindful of redundant or dead cards. Daze loses value on the draw. Force of Will or Misdirection requires another blue card. Multiples of the same creature (Emrakul or Griselbrand) are usually dead cards (unless you are going to play them in subsequent turns with Sneak Attack). Repeal (if you run it) is close to useless vs. certain decks. Multiple Show and Tells and Sneak Attacks can also be dead, although sometimes are good if you are playing against counterspell decks because you can run one out to bait their counterspell and then play the next one the following turn.

Jodzilla
12-13-2012, 09:06 AM
Thanks! It is very much appreciated! Anybody ever test a transformational sideboard into Hive Mind? It doesn't seem good to me but me and my teammate were discussing it.

Rekk
12-13-2012, 09:12 AM
Thanks! It is very much appreciated! Anybody ever test a transformational sideboard into Hive Mind? It doesn't seem good to me but me and my teammate were discussing it.

ok my quick response to that is, you will have no other cards in your board and you are still just a show and tell deck. aka it makes no sense to transform from Sneak attack to Hivemind because despite those names. they are really Show and tell decks, except Hivemind has grim monolith to cast hivemind. so do you also board in grims? and when will this ever win the game for you where sneak attack wouldn't win. theirs more effect ways to use your sideboard.

Fatestitcher
12-13-2012, 10:11 AM
Certainly not the first time Sneak Attack has won a big event, but I do recall someone said he'd eat his Black Lotus if that ever happened. Anyone know if he stayed true to his word?


LOL @ Sneak Attack! If this strategy ever wins a large tournament I will eat my Black Lotus.