PDA

View Full Version : [DTB] Sneak Attack



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

JustPAT4
09-19-2010, 03:56 AM
Sneak Show



http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5594&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5697&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=193452&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=159092&type=card


Overview

"Sneak Attack with Show and Tell," or "Sneak Show," or whatever you want to call it, is a combo-control deck that primarily operates by trying to resolve one of the aforementioned spells as early as possible and choosing creature cards such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Progenitus, Blightsteel Colossus, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Woodfall Primus to crush the opponent quickly.

I consider the deck to be a strong choice because it has the speed to keep up with aggro strategies, the control to hold back other combo strategies, and the ability to consistently shape a hand and ram through one key spell against other control oriented strategies. It's other major advantage is that it's tremendously easy to pilot and, unlike other combo decks, it's much less susceptible to typical forms of combo hate. The simple goal is to resolve a Sneak Attack or a Show and Tell, turn monsters sideways and pray that you've won.

There are legitimate reasons and advantages to splashing in each of the other three colors. Most of the information and analysis covered here deals with U/R lists.


Introduction

Special thanks to JPAnghelescu for his assistance and insight in organizing this primer!

Sneak Show is a U/R/x combo control deck. Its game-plan is to resolve either a Show and Tell or Sneak and attack as soon as possible while protecting this combo with a strong countersuit. With one of these spells it cheats in an unfair creature like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Progenitus that usually ends the game by itself.

The deck exists since mid-2010, when the release of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn made cards like Show and Tell, Eureka and Sneak Attack rise drastically in price.
At GP Columbus, Korey Age piloted a list with 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and 4 Woodfall Primus to a Top 8 finish which made the deck more popular.

The next half-year Sneak Show was a present contender in the Survival-metagame. At that time, lists with Black and White splashes for Extirpate vs. Survival of the fittest and Enlightened Tutor for consistency were the ones with the greatest success.

When Mental Misstep joined the Legacy metagame in May 2011, Sneak Show's position increased since its cards were unaffected by the little counterspell, while its addition to the deck helped it to fight against popular cards like Thoughtsieze and Stifle which can hinder the strategy.

Two very similar lists played by Rodrigo Togores and Johannes Gutbrod made Top 16 at the Bazaar of Moxen that year. While Mental Misstep continued to alter the format, after Grand Prix Providence, Hive Mind became extremely popular, arguably THE Deck to Beat in Legacy. For the next few months, Sneak Show hid behind the other popular Show and Tell strategy, since the Sneak Show/Hive Mind matchup was 40-60 for Sneaky Tell, mainly because Hive Mind + Pact wins on the spot, while an Emrakul or Progenitus needs 2 attack steps.

With Mental Misstep banned, the format sped up slightly to the advantage of Sneak Show.

While only 1 Hive Mind appeared in the Top 16 of Grand Prix Amsterdam, double the amount of Sneak Show decks did. They were piloted by Dutch natives Jan van der Vegt (15th) and Erwin "Sneak" Sneek (16th) who played the exact same maindeck and had worked on the deck together. Their creature configuration of 4 Emrakul 3 Progenitus is considered standard by many players.

Since the misstep banning, Sneak Show's position in the metagame has continued to improve the more popular decks like Maverick and Stoneblade variants have become, and the less popular Merfolk has become. In early 2012, there was almost always a Sneak Show deck in the Top 16 of the SCG Open or any other big tournament.

Recently, Hive Mind and Dream Halls have regained some popularity, but with Griselbrand on the near horizon, some speculate that Sneak Show will become Tier 1, along with Maverick, Stoneblade and RUG Delver.

Historical Decklists

Korey Age's GP Columbus Top 8 list 2010


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
3 Seething Song

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout


Yuuki Ookubo's Top 4 Japan Eternal Festival 4c Sneak Show 2010


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Echoing Truth

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

2 Lotus Petal

3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors


Sideboard

3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
2 Perish


7th Place Bazaar of Moxen May 2011 by Rodrigo Togores


3 Lotus Petal
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
3 Misdirection
2 Seething Song
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island


Sideboard

3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Wipe Away


Chris Cornwell-Shiel's 5th place SCG Open August 2011


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Seething Song
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island


Sideboard

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Massacre Wurm
2 Propaganda
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle


Erwin Sneek GP Amsterdam 16th October 2011


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
3 Misdirection
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island


Sideboard


3 Echoing Truth
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Trinisphere


Fujimoto Tumoya Worlds 1st Place December 2011


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
2 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Spell Pierce

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island


Sideboard


3 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique


David McDarby Top 4 SCG Open February 2012


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
3 Lotus Petal
2 Misdirection
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island


Sideboard


3 Blood Moon
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree


Ways to build the deck

The deck consists of 5 different parts that comprise the maindeck:

1. The Cheaters!!!

4 Sneak Attack: One half of the name-sake, no card in the history of magic more effectively cheats creatures into play for such value…again and again.

4 Show and Tell: The other half of the equation, Show and Tell enables all the broken spells at the cost of 2U.

0-4 Through the Breach: Functioning as a one-shot Sneak Attack, Through the Breach can work as a supplement providing further redundancy to the creature cheating strategy or can replace Sneak Attack and abuse Boseiju, Who Shelters All to protect the combo.

2. The Cheater Creatures

The standard configuration is Emrakul and Progenitus, in a 4/3 split. They work very well together, Emrakul being more vulnerable, but generally winning games in blowouts if he sticks; while Progenitus is immune to Emrakul-haters like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Karakas, Sower of Temptation, Angel of despair, etc. The mix ensures that even those few cards that are effective against Sneak Show are dead about half the time. The main disadvantage of Progenitus is he is only marginally effective with Sneak Attack. He deals 10 damage and doesn’t affect the board or game-state unless the 10 damage is relevant or lethal. Still, the consistency and staying power with Show and Tell make him one of the safest choices.

Other creatures that can be played are:

Woodfall Primus: He works very well with Sneak Attack, but is vulnerable to Removal and can rarely finish the game by himself.

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur: Similar to Woodfall Primus in that he is vulnerable to removal and unlikely to finish a game by his lonesome, he loads up our hand up to combo off again, can hinder the opponent (especially ANT/TES/High Tide), and pitches to Force and Misdirection.

Rune-Scarred Demon: Especially strong with Sneak Attack, he enables you to play a Tutor-package of creatures that can fit each situation, or, more likely, just tutors up Emrakul. With Show and Tell he can secure the piece of the combo you're missing if you already have one half, allowing you to go off again next turn, but he's poor if you Show and Tell him into play and don't have another combo part or an Intuition in your hand.

Blightsteel Colossus: All about the timing with him. He's vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares and, unless you have multiples, is effectively dead if he attacks via Sneak Attack and the opponent has at least 2 toughness available to block.

3. The Search Engine

4 Brainstorm: In case you haven't heard, this card turns out to be quite strong in strategies with access to Blue mana and fetch lands.

3-4 Ponder: Next best after Brainstorm, Ponder is preferable to Preordain in this strategy because it digs a card deeper and the deck craves the pieces of its 2 card combo.

2-4 Intuition: Provides versatility within the maindeck and sideboard. Most often it grabs the most effective combo piece or creature for a given situation, though other times it grabs counter-magic or a specific sideboard piece. Intuition gets blown out by Surgical Extraction.

0-2 Preordain: Offers more redundancy.

0-2 Sensei's Divining Top: Another effective card filtering option, Top is especially effective in the mid-game.

4. Protection

To be able to protect the combo against control decks and discard, and to counter opposing cards that would stop the creatures from attacking like Peacekeeper, Moat, Humility, Blazing Archon, and Ensnaring Bridge, Sneak Show utilizes a strong counter-suite that consists of:

4 Force of Will: Nothing to argue about here; we play a blue deck that needs protection so we play a playset of Forces.

0-3 Misdirection: It makes our bad matchups better, while being dead against things like Maverick (where it can only be a Force pitch or change the target of a swords if you’re running creatures other than Emmy or Proggy). But the fact that it is so strong against discard, which hurts us a lot, and that it acts as a Force of Will against a counterspell makes it necessary to test in your environment.

0-4 Daze: Seen by some as controversial in Sneak Show. While it is nice for countering a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary, it does set us one turn back if it’s not used while going off. Especially when it has to counter an opposing Careful Study or an Aether Vial, Spell Pierce is often more effective (that is, if you didn't ponder turn 1). Daze can be very strong in game 1 and many lists play 3 Daze main and 3 Spell pierce to replace them post-board if needed.

0-3 Spell Pierce: Many players opt for Spell Pierce over Daze in the maindeck. Most that don't run them main include some number in the board. (See sideboard section.)

0-3 Flusterstorm: Some prefer Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce because it's more effective against counters/discard/storm strategies/everything that matters against us in the current meta outside of Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

0-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Serves a variety of functions, including protection, and is popular with some players. Proponents argue that he a) draws out counters, further ensuring successful resolution of the combo; b) buys time by digging or bouncing while preparing to go off, in effect gaining life while solidifying the combo; c) opens up the option of bouncing Emrakul after a Sneak Attack assault; d) provides protection when putting creatures in off of Show and Tell, marginalizing any creature that they choose; e) and is an out to opposing Jaces. Opponents argue that he is too often a 4 mana sorcery speed brainstorm or echoing truth[cards] that gains 3-4 life, and that his slots are better filled by more counters or acceleration. Uniquely, Sneak Show offers a consistent turn 3 Jace. Ultimately, it comes down to play-style preference. Lists running Jace tend to combo out (slightly) more slowly, but gain some versatility and interactivity that the strategy otherwise lacks.

5. Acceleration and lands

The land configuration looks like this:

6-8 Fetch-lands including [CARDS]4 Scalding Tarn (others should be blue)
3-6 Sol lands including 2-4 Ancient Tomb and 0-2 City of Traitors
2-4 Volcanic Island
2-3 Island
1 Mountain

Due to our vulnerability to Wasteland, Sneak Show lists do not commonly run a full set of Volcanic Islands. Fetching up a Volcanic Island occurs in specific situations. Otherwise, players prefer to fetch up a basic if possible and would much rather have an Island or a Fetchland in their starting 7. To fetch out basic islands is also important post-board when the deck has access to Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon.
The exact amount of lands varies with the amount of Petals you want to play or amount of lands you are comfortable with.

Acceleration:

2-4 Lotus Petal: Excellent with both Sneak Attack and Show and Tell, Lotus Petal allows this strategy its potentially explosive starts.

0-3 Simian Spirit Guide: Similar in function to Lotus Petal, but its advantage is its surprise. It can unexpectedly counter a Daze in a key situation and, in rare circumstances, it can serve as a beater after Emrakul has cleared a path. However, because it doesn't produce Blue mana, its major drawback is that it denies the possibility of the "God Hand." Where Sol Land, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Force/Misdirection, blue card, x, creature likely leads to a first turn scoop from your opponent, that same hand with a Simian Spirit Guide is a mulligan.

0-3 Seething Song: Incredibly strong with Sneak Attack, it adds speed to the deck at the expense of consistency. As it's dead in the overwhelming majority of circumstances where you don't have a Sneak Attack, most players choose to cut the accelerator in favor of additional counter-magic.

6. The Sideboard

0-4 Leyline of Sanctity: Very strong against the decks Sneak Show has problems with: heavy discard ones, heavy control decks with only Jace ultimate as win condition. It's also not bad that it turns the Burn-matchup from 60-40 in game 1 to 70-30 games 2 and 3.

2-3 Blood Moon or 2-3 Magus of the Moon: Against a variety of opponents a resolved Moon effect is a devastation. It can turn a negative matchup like BUG Control (or something with a similarly greedy manabase) into a positive one and can win games by itself. There are a few schools of thought regarding which Moon effect is the more effective option for Sneak Show players. Some argue that Magus avoids Spell Pierce post-board, gets in for key damage, and is unlikely to die to creature removal which has likely been boarded out, while enchantment removal has been boarded in. Those who favor Blood Moon argue that many U/W/x strategies where Moons are effective will keep in a couple copies of swords to plowshares with the hope of winning a race against Progenitus, that some opponents board in edict effects and can float mana and take out Magus, and that floating mana for enchantment removal outside of Nature's Claim is unlikely to be an issue once Blood Moon resolves.

1-4 Red Elemental Blast: Strong in protecting the combo and getting rid of things like Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

0-3 Spell Pierce or 0-3 Flusterstorm: Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm appears in the 75 of the vast majority of Sneak Show lists these days.

2-4 Grafdigger's Cage or Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt: Reanimator and Dredge are poor matchups for Sneak Show. Some kind of grave-hate is important in order to improve these matchups.

0-3 Echoing Truth and 0-1 Wipe Away: Not useful in most matchups, but in those rare situations where you run into Humility, Peacekeeper, Blazing Archon, or Ensnaring Bridge you'll be happy to have packed some bounce. Echoing Truth is also strong in the dredge matchup.

0-3 Chaos Warp: It's an alternative to Echoing Truth that removes problem permanents. In corner-cases it can give us a fattie by casting it on something like an non-basic that would otherwise be wastelanded. It's also strong against things like Karakas.

0-3 Trinisphere: If you expect storm combo or a lot of burn at your tournament and don't have 4 slots available for Leyline of Sanctity, Trinisphere is a possibility.

0-3 Firespout, 0-3 Volcanic Fallout, 0-3 Pyroclasm: In an aggro field, it never hurts to be able to wrath an opponent playing a creature deck like Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, Zoo, or Maverick. Volcanic Fallout tends to be stronger against Merfolk and RUG Delver, while Firespout is more broadly useful, especially considering the prevalence of Maverick and Zoo.

0- 2 Shattering Spree: If you fear stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or want to improve your affinity matchup, Shattering Spree will do a perfect job!

Why play Sneak Show over Hive Mind or Dream Halls?

All Show and Tell decks play out similarly. Your main plan is to resolve a Show and Tell and win by abusing it in the manner of your choosing.
Let's start by comparing the backup plans of the 3 big Show and Tell tactics:

Hive Mind: Show and Tell/Hardcasting Hive Mind + Pact(s), Show and Tell into Emrakul(Progenitus)

Dream Halls: Show and Tell/Hardcasting Dream Halls, Show and Tell into Progenitus

Sneak Show: Sneak Attack into Creature(s), Show and Tell into Creature, Show and Tell into Sneak Attack into Creature(s)

So, here you have the first strength of Sneak Show over Hive and Halls. All of the Sneak Show player's combo plans can work together: you can Show and Tell an Emrakul, but you can also Sneak Attack it into play and you can Show and Tell a Sneak Attack into play in order to attack with Emrakul immediately.

On the other hand, you can't do anything with an Emrakul and a Hive Mind in your hand, or Dream Halls + Progenitus, if you can't hardcast the Dream Halls and can find a colored spell.

Moreover, Sneak Show plays more counters than Hive Mind and far more than Dream Halls. That is because it has less dead cards like Pacts or Conflux and therefore more room for counter spells. Additional counter-magic leads to Sneak Show resolving its combo more consistently.

Its disadvantage is the smaller chance of actually winning the game after you resolved a Show and Tell. While a Hive Mind on the table is a 99% win and Dream Halls about 95%, an Emrakul or Progenitus can be outraced in some instances, held in check with Humility or Ensnaring Bridge, sacrificed to an opposing Liliana or edict effect, and Emrakul can be stolen with a Sower of Temptation or Gilded Drake and bounced by Jace or Karakas.

Thus, Sneak Show's advantage is that its component parts work together more effectively and it can more consistently assemble and protect its combo. It's disadvantage is that it is less effective at winning once the combo resolves.

In the end, it is a matter of personal choice. Sneak Show is more consistent and more linear than Hive Mind and Dream Halls. Some players might find the redundancy of the strategy boring after a time, while Hive Mind/Dream Halls occasionally face different scenarios that require more various lines of play.

Totals by card type

Ultimately most lists settle on these totals, which are useful as guidelines as you construct:

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

Creatures: 6-10
Planeswalkers: 0-3
Draw/Search effects: 10-14
Counter-magic: 7-13
Bounce: 0-2
Lands: 18-21
Acceleration: 2-6


Sneak Show

Match-up Analysis


Zoo

Zoo is easily one of the most common and most consistent decks in the format today. Sneak and Tell does have a favorable Zoo match-up, but if you can’t resolve a Sneak Attack or a Show and Tell by turn 3, then Zoo can and will outrace you. The key creature in this match-up in Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: the Annihilator trigger buys you the time you need to win. Also a well timed Force of Will can save you 4 to 5 life in the end, which is not insignificant in this race. Big Zoo builds maindecking Gaddok Teeg, Knight of the Reliquary, and Karakas are more of a challenge because Show and Tell into Emrakul becomes marginalized. You risk punting the match. Sneak Attack is strong against these builds (just be careful not to leave it on the table without activating it or it may become lunch for a Qasali Pridemage).

After sideboarding, Firespout can buy you 2 to 3 extra turns of breathing room which is usually more than enough (and Blood Moon isn't bad in this matchup either).

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40).


Merfolk

Another tier 1 deck with the brutal combination of speed and consistency, Merfolk is a particular challenge for Sneak Show because it puts on a fast clock while countering spells. Game 1 is especially tough. The key to winning this match-up is A) playing around Daze (and Spell Pierce post-board) and B) being able to cast Sneak Attack or Show and Tell holding counter back-up.

After sideboarding, Firespout and Pyroblast help to keep you alive a few more turns and provide additional counter back-up support.

OVERALL: UNFAVORABLE (40/60)


Goblins

Most Goblin builds these days splash black for Warren Weirding which is a painful threat if going the Show and Tell route. Similar to Zoo, Goblins consistently puts on a fast clock so if you haven’t resolved a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell by turn 3, it’s probably good game. However, Sneak Attack and Emrakul shine in this match-up and the Annihilator trigger can steal some games that you would otherwise have no business winning. If you try to win off of SnT, it’s important to save your countermagic for the Warren Weirding.

Post board, as in most aggro match-ups, Firespout will often buy you the time you need to win the race.

OVERALL: FAVORABLE (60/40)


The Gate

The Gate might be the worst match-up for Sneak and Tell in the format today. Show and Tell is only marginal at best because of maindeck Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper of Malakir. The relentless discard package of Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Hymn to Tourach is often crippling, especially when you consider that the deck also applies time pressure with cards like Bitter Blossom, Vampire Nighthawk, and Abyssal Persecutor. Sneak Attack is crucial in this match-up. Pound one out as soon as you can so it doesn’t get discarded even if you can’t activate it right away. If your lucky enough to have a Brainstorm, try to hold one so you can cast it in response to a discard spell allowing you to hide your key cards.

The sideboard doesn’t offer much relief. Echoing Truth might buy you a couple of turns by clearing away Bitter Blossom tokens or sending a Persecutor back to its owners fist as soon as he hits the table, but it definitely leaves something to be desired.

OVERALL: VERY UNFAVORABLE (35/65)


White Stax

This match-up is good for Sneak and Tell. The key is to get things moving as quickly as possible before they get a chance to lock you out. Hold on to the countermagic for spells like Armageddon and Oblivion Ring. Ghostly Prison can be annoying, but 1 is manageable. Trinisphere isn’t much of an issue considering both SnT and Sneak Attack already cost 3 and 4 respectively. If they open with chalice on 1 and you kept a hand with cantrips but no clear win condition you’re asking for trouble. However, if you get rolling by turn 2 or 3 you’ll make quick work of this deck.

After game 1, resolving a Blood Moon will help to slow the Stax player down quite a bit.

OVERALL: VERY FAVORABLE (65/35)


43 Lands

This is an awfully good match-up for us. Of course you don’t want to give your lands opponent the time to build up, but thankfully the path is clear to cast you Sneak Attacks and Show and Tells as soon as you can. If they’re lucky enough to get an Ensnaring Bridge online quickly, Woodfall Primus becomes the ideal Intuition target. Be sure to play around Wasteland game 1 especially. Maze of Ith really isn’t that big a deal here because Emrkul’s Annihilator trigger still goes on the stack and Progen can’t be touched.

Post-board, it gets really ugly for the other guy. Bring in your Crypt’s and Blood Moons and watch him squirm.

OVERALL: VERY FAVORABLE (65/35)


Thopter-Sword Combo

This is a tricky and grueling match-up. With a vast counter package, Enlightened Tutors, and devastating cards like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and Oblivion Ring we risk getting shut out completely. This deck is one reason that Woodfall Primus has become such a popular choice and he is key in this match-up. It’s also important to be able to generate some counter back-up to ensure you resolve a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. Luckily, this deck gives you all kinds of time which helps you get to the cards you need. The biggest fear is that they get Counterbalance-Top online early effectively keeping you off everything but Sneak Attack.

After Game 1 you should bring in Blood Moons and Pyroblasts, but expect to see some Pithing Needles with Sneak Attack in mind. All things considered this is not a match-up you want to see to much of.

OVERALL: UNFAVORABLE (40/60)


New Horizons

This match-up really comes down to the opponents build. One question is important above all else: are they running Karakas? If yes, this is automatically an unfavorable match-up as Show and Tell into Emrakul risks handing them the game. Knight of the Reliquary is a powerful threat if they have Karakas. Progenitus becomes the creature of choice if Show and Tell is your only option. Sneak Attack is definitely the spell of choice here. Game 1 make sure to play around Daze and if you’ve got counter backup you’re in business. If they don’t play Karakas, you’re the favorite and bringing Emrakul to Show and Tell is the ideal play. And of course be prepared to play around Wasteland/Stilfe.

Games 2 and 3 you pick up Blood Moon which utterly devastates New Horizons. You also get Pyroblast for extra counter protection, but be prepared to play around Spell Pierce this time.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY FAVORABLE (55/45)


STORM COMBO

Storm Combo can be a really rough ride. It’s just faster than we are and most of the sideboard that would be good against this match-up (I’m thinking about Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void) has terrible synergy with cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Lotus Petal. (That said, don't rule out Trinisphere as a sb option if you expect lots of storm.) If they don’t see Duress or Orim’s Chant your chances are wildly improved as you can sit back and wait to Force the Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor. If they do, Agony is imminent. Your strategy is to throw monsters at them as quickly as possible and hope that 1 Force of Will is enough to stop him in his tracks. It should be noted that Spell Pierce is good in this matchup, though occasionally they can fight through it because of instant speed mana acceleration like Dark Ritual. If they have a nasty starting hand it’s bad news, but if they don’t you can get there. Progenitus is pretty weak here, but Blightsteel and especially Jin-Qitaxias are bosses against storm.

OVERALL: SLIGHTLY UNFAVORABLE (45/55)

Landstill

It depends on the build, but let’s start with UBG Landstill. It’s a bad matchup. Really really bad. Maindeck Innocent Blood marginalizes Show and Tell and the healthy hard-counter package plus Counter-Top makes this a nightmare. Vedndilion Clique is also no treat and once Jace comes out to play you might as well scoop.

Hitting your boarded-in Blood Moons and Pyroblasts early in games 2 and 3 is your best shot. Expect to lose this match up all day if you can’t resolve a Blood Moon. Also expect to see Pithing Needle in from their SB.

UWG Landstill is slightly better but not by much. At least Show and Tell is still relevant. However you now have to contend with Enlightened Tutors, Oblivion Ring, and the dreaded Humility (ooooo it sends chills down my spine just writing it, but I’m probably just a puss). If you can ram a SnT or Sneak Attack down their throat early and with counter backup, you have a good shot. If not, as soon as Counter-Top gets online it’s bad news bears.

Post-board is the same deal. Blood Moon is key, Pyroblast is Clutch, and expect to see a Needle with your name-sake on the tip.

OVERALL: UBG VERY UNFAVORABLE (35/65), UWG UNFAVORABLE (40/60)


*Matches are based on a scale of favorability as follows:

Very Unfavorable (35/65)
Unfavorable (40/60)
Slightly Unfavorable (45/55)
Even (50/50)
Slightly Favorable (55/45)
Favorable (60/40)
Very Favorable (65/35)

I feel like enough has been said to kick this thread off. It's one of the easiest decks to play period as far as I can tell: you cast Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and you choose enormous monsters to beat the other guy to death.

coraz86
09-19-2010, 02:55 PM
Gratz on the finish and nice report.

One question; Daze seems pretty okay in this deck. Korey Age ran it, but you didn't. I assume (as was recently said in the DreadStill forum, among other places) that Daze is iffy when you're trying to resolve expensive spells, but it seems good to have more free counters the turn you're trying to resolve S&T or Sneak Attack to make sure it resolves (as opposed to your maindeck Spell Pierce). Would you mind talking about your decision to cut Daze? Was it a metagame call or was there a more generally applicable reason?

JustPAT4
09-19-2010, 04:38 PM
Daze is definitely perfectly okay for this deck. It's a free counterspell in a deck that effectively sits there and twiddles its thumbs if it can't resolve a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. Daze also allows you to be a little more aggressive against Merfolk in particular.

Ultimately, Spell Pierce was a Meta call. I expected a lot of blue and got it. Anticipating control I wasn't worried about waiting that extra turn so Spell Pierce could shine.

Also, space in this deck is tighter than it might seem. I was having some consistency problems with Korey's 18 land mana-base and I've become a believer in the value of Progenitus in this deck.

However, in the finals I got absolutely crushed by Merfolk, which is ubiquitous in the current environment. If i'd had even 1 Daze I might have stolen a game.

Daze should absolutely be a consideration if you're interested in building a deck along these lines. As I tweak and test, if I can make 3 more maindeck holes, they will all become Daze.

PaRa
09-19-2010, 05:40 PM
A thread for this deck already exists and your list ist quite simular to mine ;) but gratz to the finish and your effort to improve the deck!

Perhaps you should include this into the old Sneak Attack thread.

I'ml not playing woodfall primus so how well where they for u so far? I just don't like them as the deck is completely StP proof without them. What i like is that they can get rid of cards like Karakas which are a pain in the ass for Emrakul but in this case the Progenitus does the job as well.

For Cards like Humilty, Ensaring Bridge i play two Echoing Truth maindeck so i have solutions in the pre-board games also. After boarding i can side in the 3rd Echoing Truth which is tutorable with the Intuitions.

JustPAT4
09-20-2010, 01:24 AM
Hey PaRa,

Yeah there is a thread for Sneak Attack post ROE generally in the New and Developmental Forum and I posted much of the same content there as well. However, unless I'm drastically mistaken this is the first thread of its kind in the Established Decks Forum. Due to the power level of this deck and because of its recent success in tournament play I made decision that Sneak Attack with Show and Tell deserved more exposure.

As for Woodfall Primus, I fully understand your hesitation. He definitely leaves something to be desired off of Show and Tell and the fact that he gets hit by Swords and Path is a drawback. However, even if he gets hit by Swords he still sends Humility or Ensnaring Bridge to the graveyard rather than to the hand where they come down again next turn to ruin your day all over again. Also, most players will side out their Swords and Paths after game 1 because they are effectively dead cards against us.

I'm just not sure that Echoing Truth is good enough as your only Artifact and Enchantment removal, although it does have other applications. You need to be able to get rid of nasty artifacts and enchantments permanently. Even after boarding more bounce spells you're leaving yourself way to vulnerable to Humility and Ensnaring Bridge--making them go away for one turn is almost irrelevant because remember we almost always need 2 attack steps to win. Also against many decks that are running Humility and Bridge you have to worry about countermagic. I don't think you want to waste your counters protecting Echoing Truth for temporary relief when you could save your counters to help resolve a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and simply choose an un-counterable Woodfall Primus to blow the problem up.

It took me awhile to come around to him, but as you continue testing and tinkering I think you too might embrace the Primus.

Cheers,
Pat

menace13
09-20-2010, 01:36 AM
I don't think you want to waste your counters protecting Echoing Truth for temporary relief when you could save your counters to help resolve a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and simply choose an un-counterable Woodfall Primus to blow the problem up.

It took me awhile to come around to him, but as you continue testing and tinkering I think you too might embrace the Primus.

Cheers,
Pat

Primus can only nab Humility if both are revealed off the same SnT, otherwise Humility rapes anything the deck does.

PaRa
09-20-2010, 07:39 AM
Hey Pat,

you are right about the thread issue, i didn't think about that :)

I going to test the Woodfal Primus and i think a split of three Woodfall Primus and 3 Progenitus is the right way to go.

Another question, how is the Seething Song for you? Is it really needed?

This is the list im going to test now:

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Intuition
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Scalding Tarn
1 City of Traitors
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:

2 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
1 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce

JustPAT4
09-20-2010, 10:49 AM
Yeah man I like that list,

Clearly the drawback to Seething Song if that it has no synergy with anything in the deck except Sneak Attack. I tried playing around with the mana-base, stepping up to 22 lands with x4 City of Traitors, and running a pair of Mox Diamonds, but I eventually moved back to the Songs.

My reasoning is that in the vast majority of situations you want to be able to cast a Sneak Attack with an activation as soon as it resolves and you still have priority. Seething Song means for 3 mana, even if the other guy has a Daze, you're gunna get there (unless he counters the Song, which is unlikely).

It's marginal really and risks being a dead card in certain situations, but it's also come up big for me. In a deck that relies incredibly heavily on just two spells, it has remarkable synergy with one.

JustPAT4
09-20-2010, 11:02 AM
Primus can only nab Humility if both are revealed off the same SnT, otherwise Humility rapes anything the deck does.

Hideously enough that is correct:

"611.3c
Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don’t wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield."

For the record though you might as well take your best shot at getting away with it, what have you got to lose? The game? Hahaha that already happened when they resolved Humility. I've seen judges flub this rule to my benefit. --Jk Don't cheat folks...unless you really really want to win. :tongue:

CorpT
09-20-2010, 11:35 AM
Hideously enough that is correct:

"611.3c
Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don’t wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield."

For the record though you might as well take your best shot at getting away with it, what have you got to lose? I've seen judges flub this rule to my benefit.


Encouraging cheating sounds like a great plan. If you want to get DQed anyway. Might want to ask Charles Gindy how that work out.

JustPAT4
09-20-2010, 02:38 PM
:confused: Kidding buddy, slow your roll. Nobody ever has and ever will get DQed for not knowing how Humility interacts with ETB triggers. Let's comment on the deck, not jokes in poor taste.

CorpT
09-20-2010, 03:08 PM
:confused: Kidding buddy, slow your roll. Nobody ever has and ever will get DQed for not knowing how Humility interacts with ETB triggers. Let's comment on the deck, not jokes in poor taste.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds09/disqualifications


Round 6 here at Worlds saw the disqualification of Charles Gindy. This disqualification highlights the DCI position on clear play, and has a direct impact on the team competition at Worlds, so we caught up with Head Judge Sheldon Menery to get all the details of what happened.

At the end of the match, Gindy asked why his opponent had not assigned damage to kill one of Gindy’s Wolf tokens when Master of the Wild Hunt’s ability resolved. This made it clear that Gindy knew that one of his Wolf tokens should have been assigned damage, but had chosen not to say anything at the appropriate time.

It is mandatory that the ability of Master of the Wild Hunt be completed in full, and by intentionally allowing the card to be misplayed, Gindy committed fraud as defined in the Infraction Procedure Guide. With Master of the Wild Hunt, a clear assignment of damage must be made for the ability to have fully resolved. It is not an option to see an opponent making a play outside the rules and allow it to happen.

Communication is one of the areas of the rules that is occasionally unclear in how it works, even to top players of the game. In this instance there was no ambiguity. It is the responsibility of both players to maintain the game state, and when they see that there is a problem, they must communicate it to their opponent.

http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/MTG_IPG_1Jul10_EN.pdf

6.2. Cheating — Fraud
Penalty: Disqualification

A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error.

A player must be aware that he or she has committed an error in representation in order for the infraction to be Fraud. For example, a player targeting a black creature with Terror has not committed Fraud if he or she forgot that Terror can not target black creatures, even though the action (playing Terror) was intentional and illegal. It is Fraud if a judge believes he or she was aware and hoping that his or her opponent would miss it.

Your "solution" to Humility is Fraud. Maybe you should have a better answer to Humility than that.

JustPAT4
09-20-2010, 03:37 PM
Your "solution" to Humility is Fraud. Maybe you should have a better answer to Humility than that.

Hahaha I'm working on it. Not a "solution" friend. A joke. Maybe you should have a better way of occupying your time (like helping me find a solution to Humility). :laugh:

PaRa
09-27-2010, 07:26 AM
Hey guys a short report from my last small tournament. I went 4:1 (9:5)

The list is 99% of the list i posted earlier i only had to switch one Ancient Tomb for a third Island which was "ok" but in some situations i wanted the Tomb instead...

The games:

Round 1 vs DDFT (NQN)

Game 1: He has to mulligan once and i keep my first 7 with a slow hand (3rd turn Sneak) but FoW. As he has no gas i resolve the Sneak in Round 3and go for the kill with a Woodfall Primus and an Emrakul in Round 4. He Chant's with Kicker but i have the FoW for it. (1:0)

Game 2: I keep a hand which i should not have kept and get destroyed in round 3 or 4 (1:1)

Game 3: I guess the same as Game 2..I Daze three spells from him in the first three rounds to stop him from going off but in round 4 he has what he needs and gets there easily even with back up for one FoW from me.(Which i didn't even have...) (1:2)

0:1 / 1:2

Round 2 vs Naya Zoo.

Game 1: I have a first turn Emrakul via Show and Tell (1:0)

Game 2: This game takes a little longer, i Firespout his Critter leaving him only with 2 Birds of Paradise. After that i resolve a Show and Tell on Progenitus with him putting another Bird into play. His attempt to Wrath my Progenitus gets forced and its game after that. (2:0)

1:1 / 3:2

Round 3 vs Domain Zoo

Game 1: I have a turn 2 Emrakul again...hell jeah...(1:0)

Game 2: I have to slow role a bit to find my relevant cards and he gets a Knight of the Reliquary and a Tarmogoyf online. I Intuition for Progenitus and put him into play via Show and Tell . I was scared of a boarded Karakas therefore went for Progenitus which was the wrong play..He attacks with the Knight and the Goyf which drops me to 5. He than shows me the top decked Volcanis Island and his Tribal Flames to deal me the missing 5 damage. I unfortunately didn't have a counter for it...Emrakul would have won the game as he didn't have a Karakas...(1:1)

Game 3: I resolve a fast Emrakul or Progenitus and win soon after (2:1)

2:1 (5:3)

Round 4 vs 4c Dreadstill without Standstill.

Game 1: I have a good hand and i expect him not to make quick pressure so i go for first turn Ancient Tomb into Sensei's Diving Top with a mana open as Daze backup. Well it resolved and i can use the mana already to see nuts on the top. Emrakul and Show and Tell. So in my 2nd turn i flip the top to cast Show and Tell with Emrakul in Hand. I have a Lotus Petal in play as Daze backup but he has the Spell Pierce...but didn't i say i had a good hand? So i had the FoW for it! Show and Tell resolves and after short thinking he scoops so we go on to game 2 (1:0)

Game 2: I keep a hand with Top, Ponder, Brainstorm Emrakul, Land, Intuition and Sneak Attack. I think this was a mulligan....I'm not able to find another land in Ponder, and about 10 Sensei's D.Top activations I discarded a Progenitus and a Emrakul to shuffle my library two times but it didn't help. When i found my 2nd land he already had 1 Goyf and 2 Dark Confidants with a Sensei's D. Top in play already so we go on to game3...(1:1)

Game 3: He should have won this game...I start of with a Sensei's D Top in round 2 and he tries to Daze it bouncing his Island. Unfortunately he forgot to tap it for a mana so i Daze his Daze....I soon after find a Show and Tell for Progenitus which he Daze's tapping his 2 mana....I Daze his Daze....He tries to FoW i FoW back... he FoW again so Show and Tell doesn't resolve but he is now out of counter magic. My next turn Show and Tell resolves so its game after that. He could have won this easily by bouncing a land for the Daze instead of casting it. In this case he would have had the 2nd FoW for my 2nd Show and Tell...but lucky me...(2:1)

3:1 (7:4)

Round 5 vs Lands

Game 1: I win fast via Progenitus (1:0)

Game 2: I have a decent hand but his Wastelands and Rishadan Port's keep me from resolving the game winning Show and Tell. He also Spell Pierces (!!!) my Blood Moon which i tried early in the game with a Lotus Petal and 2 Lands. (1:1)

Game 3: This is by far the most thrilling game. I'm able to FoW a early Crop Rotation and soon after i'm able to resolve a Show and Tell on Emrakul. i was really scared that he finds a Karakas but after the game he told me that he didn't play it. (2:1)

4:1 (9:5)

I didn't use the 2 Echoing Truth maindeck at all so i'm thinking about cutting them for a try on Seething Song's but im really not sure if i need these. And i haven't got space to squeeze the Echoing Truth into the board...so i still have to think about this...

JustPAT4
10-01-2010, 06:47 PM
Hey PaRa,

My 2 cents: Give the Songs a try and let me know what you think. Cut Spell Pierce x3 from the board to make room for Echoing Truth +2 and +1 Pyroblast.

Also I'd consider cutting out the City of Traitors. You really never want 2 lands that produce only colorless mana at one time. 3 seems like the right number of Ancient Tombs and you can use the open slot for the 4th Daze I think.

NukeMoose
10-04-2010, 11:09 PM
I'm working on putting this together but I lack a good environment to test it in right now. I'm split between going the cantrip route with Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain or the Chalice route.

Pros for cantrips
+ overall consistancy
+ quicker/more explosive turn 2's and 3's
+ blue count for FoW

Cons for cantrips
Chalice hurts against us/can't utilize it
counterbalance
less business spells/must rely of FoW/Daze to get your cards through

Pros for Chalice plan
Chalice wrecks lots of decks
Stops StP, Innocent Blood, discard, spell pierce
ups the curve=stronger against CB
can play 3sphere/isn't wrecked by it

Cons for chalice
can't effectively run cantrips

I've been running Dream Halls which is a similar concept of blue cantrips, Fow, Daze, SnT, bomb enchantment, and big stuff that needs the enablers to do anything. My experience with it: I could not control swarms easily or fight through dedicated control deck's permission so unless I was able to force something through early I couldn't keep up. Even a turn 4 Prog is often not enough against Zoo or Goblins.

So I'm thinking I want Chalice to help distrupt them/protect what I'm doing. Also if I can lock them out of playing StP/1 drops, then Ulamog looks a lot more attractive as your 2nd board affector (instead of Primus).

But that's all just thoughts in my head. If anyone had tested both versions. I see most of the lists running the cheap blue spells so I feel like that's the overall consensus, but this thread could use some more discussion.

JustPAT4
10-05-2010, 03:56 AM
Ooo ooo I've tested both versions!

I took a Chalice list into the top 8 in a 75 man event at the Vestal anniversary tournament this summer.

I was running something like this:

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Mox Diamond

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

This is definitely another legitimate direction to go with this archetype, and it has it's advantages and drawbacks. First of all, it's less consistent. Secondly, it's slightly slower on average. And thirdly, it offers no protection (outside of trinisphere) for it's key spells until you get your pyroblasts post board. However, it does offer way more relevant action spells that can be nightmares for so many lists out there today. Blood Moon, Trinisphere, and Chalice are often game changing spells that require an immediate answer. Without an answer to one of those spells on turn 1 or 2 you can cripple the opponent and effectively buy yourself quite a bit of time.
It's certainly worth entertaining depending on your Meta. You become a monster favorite against storm, improve your dredge matchup, and the maindeck Blood Moons can steal you games against New Horizons, Lands, Landstill, Rock and others.

NukeMoose
10-05-2010, 04:32 AM
The Chalice version seems to have a lot of raw power that is hard to match in the format. It's not a glass cannon like belcher but it can steal a lot of games by playing 1 card. But it's also not as consistant as I would like my blue decks to be.

From just goldfishing, I think Sandstone Needle is a great addition to speed things up in this version. It enables T2 SnT or Sneak Attack a larger percentage of the time with less hurt on the mana base than Crystal Vein or Traitors. There's also no T1 spells outside of Chalice and we have plenty of cards that enable that.

Do you remember what decks you crushed and which ones you had a hard time dealing with? Any specific hate that's hard to break? What was your SB like? Humility and Ensaring Bridge are my worst fears but they are kind of rare. Both are dealt with by Ulamog although that's like turn 10 or so (but decks playing those cards give us a bit of time to rack up mana).

1 piece of tech I like is Undying Flames, which gets around CB and should end the game quickly since 10/36 nonland cards cost 10 or more and the rest cost 3-4.

JustPAT4
10-05-2010, 04:55 AM
I got completely crushed by the Gate twice and I lost hard to ThopterSword combo. I beat up on Pro-Bant twice, TES, the Rock, and Survival Combo.

My SB was roughly:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Through the Breach
2 Shattering Spree
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout


I've always loved Sandstone Needle in mono-red Sneak Attack builds, but I haven't tested it with Sneak and Show.
Undying Flames is cute...maybe too cute... Hit you for 10 every 3.5 turns... idk.
The nastiest stuff for this list to deal with is an online Counterbalance-Top, Ensnaring Bridge, Jace, Innocent Blood, The ever-present FoW, Oblivion Ring, and the dreaded horror of Humility.

NukeMoose
10-05-2010, 05:20 AM
>I've always loved Sandstone Needle in mono-red Sneak Attack builds, but I haven't tested it with Sneak and Show.

I run like 7 islands and 5 other blue lands so T2 SNT has never been easier. Sneak also craves for double red so you can activate it the turn it comes down. Needle is the only land that comes into play tapped; so far it's been good but again I haven't tested it thoroughly. I've always been a fan of the depletion lands but it probably depends how often I see wasteland for it to make a difference.

With no brainstorms I'm not running fetches since I think the lifeloss combined with Tombs gets scary against aggro. They also get shuffled back in after a creature hits the bin and stifles any deck thinning when you want to draw another threat. Not to mention Stifle is always a threat...

>Undying Flames is cute...maybe too cute... Hit you for 10 every 3.5 turns... idk.

It hits for at least 3 each turn, and 10 every 3 turns. that's 16/3 or over 5 damage a turn. Still, I think I want to play 2-3 SDT MD even though it conflicts with 3sphere and Cotv. Without the cantrips I think it might be a concession you have to make. If you can filter your library, it also sets us up to run erratic explosion or flames to get around the hate cards.

>Counterbalance-Top, Ensnaring Bridge, Jace, Innocent Blood, The ever-present FoW, Oblivion Ring, and the dreaded horror of Humility.

Except FoW and Jace, flames isn't a bad answer to those. It's a threat that doesn't rely on our fatassed creatures. If you board in Boseiju and Flames (and find them!) it's almost unbeatable by the control lists I'm used to seeing (and it's not like they will board in Leyline of Sanctity against Sneak Attack).

Against control, most decks run 4-7 hard counters max. We've got Blood Moon, Trinisphere, SnT, Sneak and then Flames for must counter cards. And if they wait long enough we might even cast Ulamog off Seething songs.

Anyways, thanks for the discussion! I'm glad somebody's still up.

NukeMoose
10-05-2010, 05:38 PM
So this is the list I'm going to test for Nashville. I still need ideas for the sideboard.

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone needle
4 Shivan Reef
1 Volcanic (should be 4)
7 Island

4 Simian Spirit Guide 0/2R
2 SDT 1
4 Chalice of the Void XX
3 3Sphere 3
3 Blood Moon 2R
1 Erratic Explosion 2R
3 Fact or Fiction 3U
4 Show and Tell 2U
4 Sneak attack 3R
1 Through the Breach4R
1 Undying Flames 4RR
2 Prog 10
3 Ulamog 11
4 Emrakul 15

SB (as of now)
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Pyroblast (replace chalice in merfolk matchup)
4 Firespout
3 Bounce spell/answer to hate

Darkenslight
10-06-2010, 05:23 AM
How about 2 Wipe Away and one Echoing Truth in the board?

JustPAT4
10-07-2010, 12:37 PM
Yeah I think Darkenslight has the right idea. Wipe Away is your best answer period to Humility and Echoing Truth is good against Dredge's Bridge from Below tokens especially.

Good luck to ya :wink:

Demonic_Attorney
10-09-2010, 05:46 PM
I took my personal list down to Vestal, NY for Jupiter Games' 40 Duals Competition and managed to sneak away with 2nd place overall.

My list:
[CARDS]
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Mountain



Just curious, why no main deck bounce?

Don't you think that wipe away is better then echoing truth because most things that you want to bounce play in a deck with counter back up or other answers?

JustPAT4
10-10-2010, 09:52 PM
Just curious, why no main deck bounce?

Don't you think that wipe away is better then echoing truth because most things that you want to bounce play in a deck with counter back up or other answers?

Well it's a couple of reasons... First of all, in my experience, the bounce effects are so rarely relevant in today's environment. Because I consider this to be the case, precious maindeck slots for bounce spells don't make sense to me. In my last 36 matches, I've sided in Echoing Truth a grand total of twice (both times vs. Dredge).

That said, Wipe Away vs. Echoing Truth is an interesting arguement. It really comes down to what you are more worried about/see more of. They are different cards with different advantages. Echoing Truth is pretty spicy tech against Dredge and Belcher, making those tokens look ridiculous. Wipe Away shines against UWg Landstill and ThopterSword combo in particular because it gets you out from underneath Humility for a turn with no questions asked (unless Counter Balance chimes in). Additionally it hits Karakas. However, there is more immediate tech you want against those decks post-board anyway (Pyroblast, Blood Moon).

So it really comes down to your own meta I think. I definitly wouldn't disagree with 1 or 2 Wipe Away maindeck in a big tournament, but you'll probably find yourself siding it out in more matchups than you leave it in.

JustPAT4
10-10-2010, 10:19 PM
I took the following list down to Vestal, NY for their Lotus and Moxen event yesterday. I finished 5th out of a field of 115.


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
3 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt


I ended up going 6-2 (13-5) on the day. The only decks I lost to were New Horizons and Zoo (Decks I also stomped during the tournament). I had no trouble with TES, Reanimator, or Vengevival. I beat New Horizons when my deck didn't vomit all over me and I beat Zoo with relative ease two of the three times I played it. (The Zoo list that did give me trouble was running maindeck Gaddock Teeg AND Karakas (plus KOTR) which marginalized bringing Emrakul to Show and Tell, plan 1a against Zoo.)

All things considered I'm still pretty confident in this deck in the current Legacy environment. The new, popular kid on the block, Vengevine with Survival, gives this deck another favorable matchup that shows up all over the place.

APodeschwa
10-12-2010, 05:03 AM
Congrats to ur result, i played 11-3 in two ~75 player tourneys with my show and tell deck (without sneak but with personal tutor and black for discard). i like to see that blood moon handels karakas and that this deck is more speedy than mine, but i see some problems with ur combo matchup, what about adding 3 spell pierce in the board instead of tcrypt. ur dredge MU isnt that bad with echoing truth in the board and you'll see less dredge then combo i guess.

is seething song that good? i guess a 4th petal and a 4th intuition are more constant in that slot (petal, tomb, seething song, sneak attack, and 2 creatures doesnt happen that often).

do you have any sort of sb-plan for ur deck?

PaRa
10-12-2010, 05:52 AM
Hi again,

i only was able to test the two Seething Songs instead of the 2 Echoing Truth in two games yet so i really don't know if i like them or not as i always boarded them out..

1st match vs Dredge was stupid...Game 1 i forced his discard outlet round one and lay down the Emrakul round 2...Game 2 he mulls to 4 and i start of with T. Crypt round one and Emrakul again in Round 2....

2nd match vs Lands was "different"...

Round1: He got the nuts hand and i'm screwed on one land until approx round 10...
Round2: He keeps me at two Islands (lucky me as he has a wasteland already waiting...) locked with 2 Rishadan Port's for about 5-6 round but i'm able to resolve a Blood Moon in the next round and its over 2 rounds after (Sneak into Emrakul + Primus)
Round3: He mulls to 4...and i keep a hand with 2 Sneak Attack's, Intuition, 1 Show and Tell + 2 Lands and Top. He is able to grip my first Sneak Attack but the 2nd one clears his board and i win the next round.

I boarded vs Dredge: - 2 Ponder / - 2 Seething Song / - 1 Lotus Petal / - 3 Woodfall Primus / + 3 T. Crypt / + 3 Echoing Truth + 2 Red Elemental Blasts

The Woodfall Primus perhaps should stay in but i prefered the cards from the board

If i remember right i boarded vs Lands: - 2 Ponder / -1 Lotus Petal / -2 Seething Song / -1 Daze / + 3 T.Crypt / + 3 Blood Moon

JustPAT4
10-12-2010, 02:39 PM
is seething song that good? i guess a 4th petal and a 4th intuition are more constant in that slot (petal, tomb, seething song, sneak attack, and 2 creatures doesnt happen that often).
Here's the thing about Seething Song; it's either a dead card or a friggin All-Star with no room in between.

Would +1 Lotus Petal and +1 Intuition be more consistent in its place? Arguably yes. However, the deck is pretty darn consistent as is and Seething Song opens up the potential for the lucky hand, something I always look for in a long tournament. Also you don't need 2 critters to cripple the opponent with Sneak Attack. Turn 2 or Turn 3 Seething Song into Sneak Attack choosing either Emrakul or Woodfall Primus is pretty much devastating and buys you valuable time.

The fact of the matter is Seething Song has flat out won me games in situations where Intuition and Lotus Petal would've been too slow. And I don't think that starring at the Seething Song in my hand has ever cost me a game...I play pretty close attention to it when it comes up because it really seems like a marginal card.


do you have any sort of sb-plan for ur deck? I see some problems with ur combo matchup, what about adding 3 spell pierce in the board instead of tcrypt. ur dredge MU isnt that bad with echoing truth in the board and you'll see less dredge then combo i guess.

Of course I have a sideboard plan for my deck... Actually you've hit on the very thing I'm considering at the moment. The Storm matchup is poor on paper and my current sideboard yields no help whatsoever. That said, I'm 4-1 (9-4) in the 5 times I've played against Storm Combo. Go figure. Chalk it up to bad draws if you want, but if they don't hit their discard spells (or Chant) it actually becomes a favorable matchup... Still you're right, I do want Spell Pierce in the Board. I just don't think cutting Tormod's Crypt is the right call. It's a go-to card against Dredge, Lands, and Reanimator and that already makes it more versatile than Echoing Truth. For the past few days I've been considering cutting x2 Echoing Truth from the board, finding a singleton maindeck whole for Wipe Away, and adding +2 Spell Pierce to the board.

affinitypimp
10-12-2010, 02:53 PM
Seething Song is VERY good in this deck and i am still trying to currently test it at 4 copies MB. there are plenty of times when you can use it turn 1 but mostly turn 2 is easier to get with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and such. its good because it puts a sneak attack in play. I used to run Sundering Titans a few months ago since it wasn't hard to seething song (i ran 3 back then) one into play since they costed only 8 mana and they used to give very good board position (and if the opponnent somehow StP's it then they get more lands blown up. But since Woodfall can stay on board even after u sneak one in i started using them instead.

Demonic_Attorney
10-12-2010, 09:06 PM
I took the following list down to Vestal, NY for their Lotus and Moxen event yesterday. I finished 5th out of a field of 115.


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
3 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt





I really, really think you need to get the 4th Acient Tomb in their for sure. Korey Age agreed he would make this change and has going from 3-4. Want it in your opening hand and no better way to do that then maxing out and increasing your chances.



Seething Song is VERY good in this deck and i am still trying to currently test it at 4 copies MB. there are plenty of times when you can use it turn 1 but mostly turn 2 is easier to get with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and such. its good because it puts a sneak attack in play. I used to run Sundering Titans a few months ago since it wasn't hard to seething song (i ran 3 back then) one into play since they costed only 8 mana and they used to give very good board position (and if the opponnent somehow StP's it then they get more lands blown up. But since Woodfall can stay on board even after u sneak one in i started using them instead.

Seething Song is not just good but is in fact great in the context of this particular deck. Song should be in this deck and anybody who has top 8 at any major legacy event playing this deck used 2-3 of them. Using one is futile and with all due respect, 4 is just too many.

Look at it like this. Wild Mongrel and especially Aquamoeba are bad creatures and should not be in any viable legacy deck. However, in the context of Survival/ Vengevine they serve their purpose and are very playable in the context of that particular deck. I think the same thing must be said about Seething Song in the context of Sneak Show.

Spell Pierce has been main decked for me for the same reason Saito moved them from the baord to main deck at GP Columbas; fear of combo which is huge in my metagame right now. In large scale tournaments you have to be prepared for that which is why Age had two miandeck, and two sideboard at GP Columbus. I like 2-3 maindeck.

JustPAT4
10-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Yeah I can't disagree about the fourth Ancient Tomb. The deck LOVES to see one... The problem is that it HATES to see two.

However, Brainstorm and 8 fetches does occasionally help shuffle away this problem should it occur. I've been going back and fourth between 3 and 4 and I'm currently marking an island as an Ancient Tomb as I test.

As for Spell Pierce, It's gotta be a meta call. If you're seeing a decent amount of Combo, run 2-3 maindeck. If you're seeing a relatively low amount of combo, board 2-3. If Combo is seriously low to nonexistent in your meta, you can cut it completely... If you're entering any tournament with 75 or more players and not boarding at least 2, it may come back to haunt you.

I got paired against TES round 2 down in Vestal this past weekend after dropping round 1. When I realized the matchup, I nearly punched myself in the dick for not adding the Spell Pierces to the board. I got seriously lucky to sweep that matchup.

PaRa
10-13-2010, 04:35 AM
I actually have the same problem with the Spell Pierce and the Red Elemental Blasts :) I always decide before the tournament which of them i will play...and it is often not easy to choose...

About the lands, i played five of the 2 colorless lands for a while and it was never a real problem as i always wanted one of them in round 2 latest (4 A. Tombs 1x City of Traitors) but as i forgot to take the 4th A. Tomb to the last tournament i added a 3rd island and played 3x A. Tomb and 1 City of Traitors and it was perfect. I don't want to run four A. Tomb as the life loss can be a problem(i lost 1-2 games which i would have won if i only had 1-2 life more...) ofc one City of Traitors does not make a huge difference but is helpful time by time.

Have you guys tried Sensei's Divining Top now? I still believe its better than Ponder Nr. 3 & 4 ;)

addaro
10-13-2010, 05:15 AM
Interesting take on the deck http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/examining-the-top-8-decks-at-tokyo%E2%80%99s-eternal-festival/

ForlornEgoist
10-13-2010, 01:31 PM
I've been playing the Mono-Red Sneak Attack ver. (One which was good 5 years ago that used Dragon Tyrant, Blazing Shoal, Nicol Bolas, etc.) and after seeing the GP Top8, I now see that UR Sneak Show is definitely the way to go.

Since Eldrazi I've been taking a look at Hellcarver Demon. Is he viable in a UR build? I know in the Mono-Red ver that uses a Dragon Stompy Shell he can fit, but is he justified in UR? The problem I often ran into when trying to use him is that if I wanted to make full use of his ability I needed 16+ creature count, which is hard to obtain in this deck. Here was a list I've been testing:

4 Hellcarver Demon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth
4 Woodfall Primus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

4 Sneak Attack
3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarns
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Based on my testings of him I found that while he does allow for some amazing plays, he also forces me to cut a lot of protection (ie. Daze, Spell Spierce, Wipe Away, etc.), thus making me more vulnerable to losing counterwars (which are especially prominant in my meta that consistent has 3+ Merfolks, 2 Survivals and 2 Bants).

How has Progenitus been working for those who've used him? When I was using him in the MonoRed ver I found that beyond the initial 10 damage he did little to affect the gamestate which I felt was necessary. Does his evasion alone make him useful?

I think Seething Song more than justifies itself in this deck, however with the 8 fetches/8 cantrips I think we shouldn't have too much difficulty finding them if necessary, so we can live off 2 and bumb the Tomb count to 4 (which I found provides more explosiveness overall in the deck).

ForlornEgoist

JustPAT4
10-13-2010, 01:43 PM
Sick find addaro!

This list made Top 4 at the 245 player Eternal Festival in Tokyo (The text after the list are Tomoharu Saito’s impressions):

Show and Tell/Sneak Attack / Yuuki Ookubo – Top 4

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Echoing Truth

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

2 Lotus Petal

3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

• Sideboard

3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
2 Perish

"This deck uses Show and Tell and Sneak Attack to put huge creatures into play. Here, white and black were added to earlier blue and red versions, in particular Enlightened Tutor. Because of this card you can tutor for Sneak Attack, but also if you only have Show and Tell in hand you can search for Sphinx of the Steel Wind. As such, it seemed that due to the white splash the deck’s stability had increased considerably. I felt that Personal Tutor had much the same effect. And, it’s interesting to think that in a long game you could probably also win by hardcasting Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Because it is four colors, I had the feeling that this deck could still develop further. This build plays Enlightened Tutor, and as a result if I were to play this deck I have the feeling I would like to play one copy of Oblivion Ring in the main deck or sideboard to handle my opponent’s various enormous permanents in the mirror including Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Then, even if my opponent put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play using Show and Tell when I have Progenitus in play, I could search for Oblivion Ring using Enlightened Tutor and regain control."

There are so many places to pick up discussion on this list and Saito's brief analysis... White for MD E-tutor and SB Meddling Mage, Black for SB Extirpate and Perish, MD Pyroblast/REB, No Seething Song, 21 MD land with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors Split... Increased vulnerability to Wasteland... No Blood Moon option. Black splash, but no MD Lim-Dul's Vault ( which seems pretty spicy).

This one's juicy folks and there's LOTS of places to go with this discussion. Can't wait to get something rolling! :laugh:

JustPAT4
10-13-2010, 06:46 PM
Since Eldrazi I've been taking a look at Hellcarver Demon. Is he viable in a UR build?

Hey Egoist,

So I began testing Hellcarver Demon with the Eldrazi legends in mono-red Sneak Attack as soon as they were spoiled and these were my impressions: First of all, too bulky (too many maindeck slots consumed by monsters just so that the Hellcarver Demon doesn't punt the match for you). Secondly, with the exception of Emrakul, all the critters were vulnerable to Swords/Path which was very annoying. And finally, even with 8 Eldrazi monsters the chances of hitting one off of Hellcarver, while good, were not spectacular (each card of the top was about a 1 in 6 shot to be a monster).

So the short answer is no. In my opinion, Hellcarver Demon is absolutely not viable nor desirable in a competitive legacy environment, especially not with Show and Tell builds. With UR builds you need to focus more on control and resolving your key spells... I think Hellcarver Demon and all the friends he craves takes up too much precious space.


How has Progenitus been working for those who've used him? When I was using him in the MonoRed ver I found that beyond the initial 10 damage he did little to affect the gamestate which I felt was necessary. Does his evasion alone make him useful?

Yeah I think you're right about this one. In mono-red Sneak Attack, if you're lucky enough to get 1 activation (or resolve a Through the Breach) you better be threatening to win the game or cripple the opponent enormously. Progenitus just doesn't do that. Emrakul does. Protean Hulk does. Serra Avatar does (against control oriented decks). Sovereigns of Lost Alara (+Pattern of Rebirth/Eldrazi Conscription) does/can.

In Sneak Attack with Show and Tell however, Progenitus rocks. Not surprisingly, most decks can't recover if you bring Progen to Show and Tell turns 1-3. Plus he un-Swords/Path-able, un-Karakas-able, hell for all intents and purposes he's un-everything-able (expect Perish-able). Also he doesn't outright suck with Sneak Attack, he is an auto 10--and perhaps most significantly, he pitches to Force of Will in a pinch.

Demonic_Attorney
10-13-2010, 08:16 PM
Interesting take on the deck http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/examining-the-top-8-decks-at-tokyo%E2%80%99s-eternal-festival/

Don't like this list for a variety of reasons. First and foremost splashing black and white to a deck that already has to play red and blue now playing four colours in total with a deck that generally only plays 18-19 land is very risky and too inconsistent.

That being said, the metagame in that particular tourney would have seen any decent version of Sneak Show do very well. I do, however, take my hat of to him for that impressive finish.

JustPAT4
10-14-2010, 10:55 AM
Don't like this list for a variety of reasons. First and foremost splashing black and white to a deck that already has to play red and blue now playing four colours in total with a deck that generally only plays 18-19 land is very risky and too inconsistent.

I donno if I'd call the list inconsistent (he was running 21 lands and the White mana was only used for 1 spell MB, Black 0 MB), but risky perhaps. It's definitely much more vulnerable to land hate. The ability to effectively play around Wasteland and Board in Blood Moon is one of the things I like most about the UR version.

To be sure, I think that Ookubo's list could use some work, but there's something to it that I feel shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

rgripp
10-14-2010, 03:55 PM
What I did that improved a bit my matchup against the Gate (and other decks that pack black for the SB hate) is a single Dryad Arbor in my sideboard. Since I play 4 Misty Rainforests, I can not pop one, and let it sit there waiting for the edict.

JustPAT4
10-15-2010, 01:51 AM
Haha yeah man, Dryad Arbor is pretty cute.

Innocent Blood is certainly a problem for this deck and there really isn't much of anything we get in terms of relief from the board in UR.

If you're seeing a lot of The Gate or other decks running Innocent Blood you've gotta do something to improve your match-up. Dryad Arbor definitely leaves something to be desired, but for pure sneakiness factor in a Sneak Attack deck--I say bravo! :laugh:

APodeschwa
10-18-2010, 05:56 AM
I finished 3th with a 5-1 yesterday with this list:

// Lands
3 [B] Island (3)
1 [A] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
3 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [NE] Daze
3 [PT] Personal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

I won against Goblins, Zoo, UW-Faeris, Bant and Death n Taxes. I lost only to Canadian Threshold.

I like the deck but it has one major problem: It's very hard to win against the tempodecks. u can often steal g1 due to the fact that they dont know what ur playing but g2 and g3 is very very hard to win because they know that they only need to counter SaT and Sneak Attack. I guess we need to develop due to this matchups. being only 2 coloured is definately a plus but they have 4 daze, 4 spell pierce 4 fow and depending if its merfolk or can.*****: 4 cursecatcher, 4 standstill or 4 REB.

Against Merfolk we have 3 REB and 3 Firespout and against Can.Treshhold we have 3 Moon and 3 REB.

How can we improve those MUs ?

JustPAT4
10-18-2010, 04:03 PM
Nice finish, I find your list interesting for a number of reasons, but let's start with your question: How can we improve our match-up against Merfolk, Tempo Thresh and the like?

Considering that (in my environment) these are the most popular of the decks Sneak and Tell struggles with, I've begun maindecking 1 Pyroblast and 1 REB (though Spell Pierce is fine in its place if this doesn't appeal to you). I'm now running a counter suite of 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast. In the board I have 1 Pyroblast, 1 REB, and 3 Spell Pierce.

Against Next Level Thresh/Tempo and other tempo based decks, always play around Wasteland and take for granted that they have 1 Stifle in hand. You can actually surprise the Tempo player in game 1 into thinking he/she is up against the mirror and if you get a solid starting hand and wait for double counter backup, you can steal game 1.

After game 1 I get my other REB effects and Blood Moons. The only time I ever beat this deck post board is when I can resolve a Blood Moon. You have lots of counters too and a Blood Moon can be just as devastating as a Sneak Attack/Show and Tell, plus it's another way to draw out counters before you go for the action spell holding your counters.

Maindeck REB effects also rock against Merfolk. I haven't got much in the way of ideas except more REB effects and more Firespouts if you're seeing a lot of fishies.

Looking at your 6 matches, the Pyroblasts probably saw action in 3 of them. In a longer tournament It would likely be more frequently. I went through my tournament history over the past few months and calculated that I was using REB effects in just under 70% of my matches. Because I feel confident in many of my match-ups that aren't running blue, and because of how popular blue is in general, I don't find it problematic to maindeck them. If they aren't running blue, sideboarding becomes painless and at worst you might be left with a dead card game 1 vs. Goblins or Zoo. (Was that spell pierce really gunna help you anyway?)

I don't think I said anything you weren't already aware of, but that's my 2 cents. Nice deck man.

APodeschwa
10-19-2010, 03:39 PM
hey spell pierce went to the sideboard that morning cause quite some people were playing combo (mostly DD). i think we dont have a too bad MU against the graveyard decks so crypt isnt needed that much.

i really like the personal tutors, they offer turn 2 show and tells with a petal or a tomb much more often. what other cards could solve the tempo-deck-weakness. defense grid? more REB? a 4th bloodmoon? misdirections ?

i think sneak and tell is really good in the meta but we need to find a way to counter merfolk and can.***** ?

any thoughts?

Demonic_Attorney
10-19-2010, 08:01 PM
@ APodeschwa:

Merfolk really isn't as bad of a match up as you’re making it out to be. Yes it is true, it is definitely not one of our more favorable matchups, but it is still very beatable.

I also play 4x FOW and 4X Daze main right now with 4x REB, 3x Blood Moon and 3x Fire spout in the board. I beat both fish decks 2-0 this past Saturday. All of those cards are amazing against Merfolk. That is a lot of hate for any one deck.

I do have to say that playing 4x intuition is manifestly excessive. Not only is it too slow, but it will cost a whooping four (or more) to play against fish at any given time with cursecatcher, daze and spell pierce and all. I am starting to like personal tutor but intuition just doesn't do for this deck what it does for Aluren for example. I also don't like the fact that you’re not sporting even 2x Seething Song. It is one of those cards that you hate to put it but still needs to be included nevertheless. Look at all the top Sneak Show decks that have topped 8 at any major Legacy event recently; they all have 2-3.

JustPAT4
10-20-2010, 03:57 AM
@ APodeschwa:

Yeah I don't really know what to say about extra support in the tempo MU. One of the main advantages to red mana in legacy is REB (and Firespout). And the ability to run Blood Moon out of the board is huge. REB and Blood Moon together is 6-7 extremely relevant spells in that MU. I really can't see making too much more fuss about a deck that comprises less than 5% of the Meta I'm used to seeing.

Defense Grid isn't as patently absurd as it seemed to me at first glance and if your environment sees a lot of Tempo, Thresh, and Landstill maybe 2 or 3 holes in the board are worthwhile.

I have to agree with Demonic Attorney that x4 Intuition is excessive. 1 is nice to fix a hand or find a key SB card in a particular MU, but the deck doesn't crave it or abuse it any special way.

Merfolk is not a MU that you want to see, but it's a MU that a lot of decks don't want to see--that's why it's popular. Again, in Legacy, if you're splashing red, it's for the awesomeness of REB and Firespout. They're both bombs against those pesky fish. You have 6 to 7 cards of super-spice games 2 and 3, 3 of which read "Wrath of God for 3 mana", 3 to 4 of which read "counter any spell or blow up any dude for 1 mana." If you're always dropping this match, you're not hitting any of the SB. If they start to curve out like a champ, it's gonna be a painful match, but this matchup is not un-winnable if you can hit even 1 piece of counter magic/ 1 Firespout.

So idk man. I'll of course keep thinking on it, but my gut tells me I'm devoting about as much SB space as I reasonably can to combat tempo and merfolk.

Personal Tutor is certainly a legitimate option, especially considering that your deck is much more heavily oriented towards Show and Tell. I also really like that it snags Firespout from the board. In limited testing on MWS though, I've wished it was either a monster or a counterspell more than half the time.

Oh and I really think Tormod's Crypt is preferable to Echoing Truth, but it's your call. In theory, Echoing Truth has more utility, but not in practice. I just never bring it in from the board. Yeah it is good against Dredge, but you know what's even better? TCrypt. Unless you are bringing in Echoing Truth in MU's that I'm not accounting for, in every case that Echoing Truth is relevant from the board, TCrypt is just better. That's a pretty simplistic assertion, but I'd love to get deeper into the precepts of my argument if anyone wants to make a case for Echoing Truth.

Muppet86
10-20-2010, 09:18 AM
Hey all,

in a few weeks we will have nationals here and i am planning on playing this deck. I played the folliowing list during the side event of the pro-tour Amsterdam:

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Woodfall Primus
2 progentius

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
3 Seething Song
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard
2 firespout
2 wipe away
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progentius
3 blood moon
4 pyroblast

Won against the gate, lands and burn...lost to ANT and Rock (had 14 hate cards sb and played a mb needle)

I was impressed by the sheer power of the deck, but like other people here...i fear the tempo match-up. Goblins is duable, they do not counter anything so you can set up, but New Horizons and Merfolk, two popular decks are more difficult.

What do you guy;s advice in changes in the MB and SB concerning nationals? I really want to destroy Merfolk for once;-)

APodeschwa
10-20-2010, 11:36 AM
well i changed my list to the follwing:

// Lands
3 [B] Island (3)
1 [A] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [SOM] Liege of the Tangle

// Spells
3 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [NE] Daze
3 [PT] Personal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

the choices:

liege of the tangle: i really wanna test this guy, in some situations (all decks without stp, path or perish) hes quite good, expecially with sneak attack. but i think he wont get the maindeckslot because he is only good in some sitautions and only with sneak attack. maybe ill add a 9th brainstorm (preordain) or a misdirection.

no seething song: i only have 3 sneak attack and this spell is only good with sneak. often it is a dead card. sometimes its good but only sometimes.

personal tutor: offers more often turn 2 emrakuls

wipe away: bounce CBs, humilities, other shitty cards.

JustPAT4
10-20-2010, 12:05 PM
What do you guy;s advice in changes in the MB and SB concerning nationals? I really want to destroy Merfolk for once;-)

I think you're going to find that "plan A" with this deck is a quick Show and Tell. That said, I would consider flipping the count on the bottom two critters and running 4 Progenitus, 2 Woodfall Primus (or maybe a 3/3 split). Progenitus wins the game more often than not if you only have Show and Tell and resolve it turn 2 or 3. If you're stuck with just Woodfall Primus in hand when you cast Show and Tell, you're gunna have problems.

If you're really worried about your MU's against Tempo based decks and Merfolk in particular and are expecting a good deal of them, maindeck REB effects. If you wanna go in ready to crush aggro and especially Merfolk you can maindeck a pair of REBs and a pair of Firespouts.

Also if you haven't given Intuition a try, I'd consider testing 2-3 as I've found it helps to smooth out the deck.

I've found New Horizons to be a favorable MU for me. I'm 5-2 (11-5) lifetime with SneakShow vs. this deck. If they don't run Karakas it's pretty painless (and most builds aren't, not yet anyway). Yeah mana denial in the form of Stifle can be annoying, but Blood Moon is a complete devastation for NH and Next Level Tempo (thresh). Also, if you resolve a Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, OR a Blood Moon it's generally GG on the spot.

I hope this gives you something to chew on. Can't wait to hear about a stellar result!

Demonic_Attorney
10-20-2010, 05:32 PM
well i changed my list to the follwing:

// Lands
3 [B] Island (3)
1 [A] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [SOM] Liege of the Tangle

// Spells
3 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [NE] Daze
3 [PT] Personal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

the choices:

liege of the tangle: i really wanna test this guy, in some situations (all decks without stp, path or perish) hes quite good, expecially with sneak attack.



I really like your sideboard; mainly because mine is the exact same right now (4x Pyrobast instead of REB).

Playing only 3 Sneak Attack is definitely suspect in any build or version of this deck. I have yet to see any that have sported less then a full play set. I strongly suggest taking out one of your 3 Intuition or 3 Personal Tutors to play the 4th Sneak Attack. 3x Personal Tutor and 3x Intuition still seems like too much.

Moreover, what further aggravates it, particularly in your build is the fact that you are running, or going to be running a card that is much better off of Sneak Attack then it is show and tell; that being Liege of the Tangle.

All that being said, have you actually tested the 3x Intuition with 3x Personal Tutor in any 40-50+ player Legacy Events?

I am going to be playing this deck in the only side event Legacy Tournament at Grand Prix Toronto this weekend. Anybody else plan on attending? It is for a Beta Ancestral Recall. They are anticipating well over 100 players and I am looking forward to see how this deck does in a large scale Legacy Tourney.

JustPAT4
10-20-2010, 06:17 PM
Sadly I can't make it up to Toronto this weekend--too busy. Good Luck Demonic Attorney--can't wait to hear a report. :laugh:

@APodeschwa:

Is their any particular reason you're not running the 4th Sneak Attack?

And I've gotta say that Liege of the Tangle doesn't thrill me so much in Legacy's removal heavy environment. It's true that if you crash with him you are very likely to win, but at least when Woodfall Primus gets swords he takes a land with him.

It is an intriguing card though. Test it out and let us know what you think. Ultimately though, I'm skeptical that it'll earn a spot in the deck in the current environment... Misdirection, though, is a card I go back and forth with. It counters any opponents counterspell on the stack by deflecting it to itself, essentially acting as Force backup when trying to resolve an action spell, and it has other (albeit much more limited) applications against nasty threats like Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtsieze.

Misdirection is a spell deserving of strong consideration. Free hard-counters in backup situations are just what this deck wants.

JustPAT4
10-20-2010, 06:23 PM
I am going to be playing this deck in the only side event Legacy Tournament at Grand Prix Toronto this weekend. Anybody else plan on attending? It is for a Beta Ancestral Recall. They are anticipating well over 100 players and I am looking forward to see how this deck does in a large scale Legacy Tourney.

I definetly think it's a strong choice right now. I've run this deck in 3 hyper-competetive tournaments with between 75 and 115 players and made top 8 each time. I'm glad to hear that someone will be representing it!

APodeschwa
10-20-2010, 07:12 PM
I played this deck in 3 tourneys yet:

1. 87 people finishing 3th with 6:1
2. 76 people finishing 4th with 5: 1 :1
3: 54 people " 3th " 4 :1

Alltogether 15: 3: 1.

i lost 2 matches to merfolk and 1 to canadian. i never felt i was missing a 4th sneak attack. intuition helped me to find the creatures i was looking for.

i think liege of the tangle wont get a maindeck slot although i would love to have a 9th creature. in a format full of StP liege is not good enough. is there any creature that has the following things except emrakul and progenitus:

1. shroud or "emrakul-shroud"
2. the license to kill nearly always in no more than 2 rounds.
3. good with SaT and SA.

i think the only debateble slot is what to play instead of the 4th intuition: a 9th brainstorm (preordain), a creature, a "creature tutor" or a misdirection. i looked at all the creatures availible but none of them solve 1. and 2. except emrakul and progi.

i nearly never used intuition to find a sneak attack or a show and tell (due to personal tutor), nearly always i tutored for the creature of choice or for force of will or for a sideboard card.

by the way why do all guys play seething song, except with sneak attack or eot seething song into 2x intuition or having extra mana to resolve show and tell (tempo decks often just counter ur seething song and restart beating u with there guys, this is often a turn too much) it is always a bad deal to play it. of course petal + tomb + seething song + sneak attack + 2 creature is very good, but thats the nuts draw that u'll have about <0,5% times. personal tutor is way better there because it offers much more turn 2 SaTs, in the early game its like an extra SaT (4SaT + 3 Perso = 7 SaT that should be availible turn 2 or 3) - it makes the deck much more consistent.

sneak attack to me is nearly always the option no 2 except u need the haste emrakul to deal with lethal dmg from ur opp. on the next turn. the good thing about sneak is that ur opps REBs do nothing against it, but krosan grip handles it and so does pithing needle. show and tell is often mch better and much faster. thats why i see no reason to play seething song over personal tutor.

woodfall primus has 1 major problem: it is bad with show and tell and it isnt that good with sneak attack. liege of the tangle is much better than the primus. i would love to run a 9th or even 10th creature but all the creatures i found were just bad.

Liege of the tangle seems like place 3. but not having shroud is a pain in the as s.

JustPAT4
10-21-2010, 12:41 AM
by the way why do all guys play seething song. personal tutor is way better there because it offers much more turn 2 SaTs, in the early game its like an extra SaT (4SaT + 3 Perso = 7 SaT that should be availible turn 2 or 3) - it makes the deck much more consistent.

sneak attack to me is nearly always the option no 2 except u need the haste emrakul to deal with lethal dmg from ur opp. on the next turn. the good thing about sneak is that ur opps REBs do nothing against it, but krosan grip handles it and so does pithing needle. show and tell is often mch better and much faster. thats why i see no reason to play seething song over personal tutor.

woodfall primus has 1 major problem: it is bad with show and tell and it isnt that good with sneak attack. liege of the tangle is much better than the primus. i would love to run a 9th or even 10th creature but all the creatures i found were just bad.

Liege of the tangle seems like place 3. but not having shroud is a pain in the as s.

Seething Song has been discussed so many times in this thread. There's only 1 reason it sees play: it has truly fantastic synergy with Sneak Attack. Seething Song absolutely wins games for this deck...like right away if you've got Sneak Attack. Personal Tutor is kinda like another Show and Tell...one that reads "Skip your next draw and reveal to your opponent your entire plan. P.S. hope you weren't low on mana considering you are running a whopping 18 lands." If you already have three mana in hand (at least 1 being a Tomb or Petal), Personal Tutor means you get to attack with Emrakul, not this turn, not next turn, but if you're lucky the turn after next. That's only if you don't have to waste a turn or two to cantrip and find mana or counter backup (considering your opponent knows your strategy). Seething Song either reads "RAAAAARRRRR HERE COMES A MONSTER!" or "Please ignore me." You didn't even have to stop cantriping and you can always send it home with Brainstorm if you're lucky enough to do so. So Seething Song is a speed thing. Just a speed thing, not a consistancy thing. If we ran our decks against each other I'd win because I have Seething Song.

Ok, Krosan Grip hits Sneak Attack, sure, but not before you get an activation in. Split Second doesn't override priority. Unless the race is on, if there's a chance my opponent has enchantment removal, I never cast Sneak Attack unless I have the mana to activate it aswell. Seething Song makes this crazy easy.

Now you're right that Woodfall Primus isn't neccesarily desireable with Show and Tell, but what do you do when your opponent plops down Ensnaring Bridge off of Show and Tell (or manages to resolve one)? Scoop? That's pretty lame. Lands, ThopterSword combo, Burning Bridges, and many Landstill builds run Ensnaring Bridge maindeck. Woodfall Primus is your one maindeck out to Bridge. Plus it gets your stuff out from underneath Oblivion Ring, and blows up Karakas, Pithing Needle, an occasional Moat, and Jace. In fact it does all this even if it gets hit by swords/path. So I disagree that "Liege of the Tangle is much better than Primus." It's scope may be limited, but Woodfall Primus has proven itself valuable in this deck.

JonBarber
10-21-2010, 01:39 AM
Two questions for you Pat,

1. How is your vengevine matchup?

I think thats the biggest question for today's meta. Any deck that can't handle plants seems like a weak choice to play.

2. Whats your current list?

I know you cut the spell pierces for the last vestal, are you still running things that way? We've decided its time to stop ignoring your insane results with the deck and start testing it.

Muppet86
10-21-2010, 05:59 AM
@Jonbarber,

i've tested a lot against the plants. The annoying thing is that they have waste+stifle and a quick clock. Other than that, they do not counter that much. Sneaky show usually goes t2/t3 or so. They go t3/t4. You are quicker, and emrakul is a beating for them.

The annyoing bit is though that once they have the vengevine, they will have enough permanets to sack to your emrakul, and will beat you the next turn.

@ APodeschwa
If you cut the liege, you are at 8 creatures. Do you think that will be enough? I'm running 10 at the moment. Is the personal tutor that good for you that you do not need the extra 2 creature slots?

(sorry for the English guys, it's not my first language)

JustPAT4
10-21-2010, 10:46 AM
Two questions for you Pat,

1. How is your vengevine matchup?

I think thats the biggest question for today's meta. Any deck that can't handle plants seems like a weak choice to play.

2. Whats your current list?

I know you cut the spell pierces for the last vestal, are you still running things that way? We've decided its time to stop ignoring your insane results with the deck and start testing it.

On the whole, my Vengine matchup is even to slightly favorable. In competetive legacy I'm 3-0 (6-1) vs Vegevival. It does vary slightly depending on the build. The white splash version is better for SneakShow, dropping Wasteland (and in some builds Stifle) Vengevival loses the 1 tempo gaining stragey it has vs. this deck. The fact of the matter is though, SneakShow is faster on average. Or I should say Emrakul is faster on average (the game I dropped yeilded me a turn 3 progen off of Show and Tell and I got outraced). In theory it's a matchup very similar to Merfolk (quick clock/countermagic/some mana denial), but we get to utilize graveyard hate from the board instead of Firespout. Game 1 I play to keep the opponent off of SotF and if he wants to blow all his counterbackup in order to jam it into play that's just fine because I'm playing an action spell next turn. So yeah, this deck can handle Vengevival.

This is my list today:

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
2 Woodfall Primus

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

SB:

1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Firespout
3 Blood Moon


P.S. If you wanna get really spicy and improve your Vengvine mathup a bit more, a black splash offers MD Lim-Dul's Vault and SB Extirpate.

JonBarber
10-21-2010, 11:11 AM
Hmm... woodfall primus as a 2 of seems weaker because you can no longer intuition for him. Also, maindeck REBs aye? Did you play those on the last vestal? Is this to improve the maindeck merfolk matchup?

JustPAT4
10-21-2010, 01:01 PM
Here's the thing: Woodfall Primus was a 3 of for me when ThopterSword was gaining popularity a few months back and Landstill was still seeing a fair amount of play. Now due to the popularity of Vengevival in the current meta, ThopterSword and Landstill have fallen out of favor because they have a poor matchup against it. Thus, Woodfall Primus has become a less relavent spell right about now. In a long tournament, I may still have to stare down an Ensnaring Bridge at some point so I can't justify cutting it out completely, but the amount of times I actually want to Intuition for it is incredibly narrow. It could still happen and I'll take my lumps because I'd rather have a piece of countermagic in most circumstances.

Maindeck REBs. Aye. Didn't run them last Vestal, but the next day in Rochester I got devastated by Next Level Tempo and just barely snuck by Fish after dropping game 1. I went through my tournament history of late and found that they were entering my deck in 70% of my matches anyway. Among the decks that SneakShow struggles with (Tempo-based decks, Merfolk, Landstill, Thopter combo, and Mono-black Aggro) REB is an important card in the majority of them, especially considering the unequal proportion of Tempo and Merfolk among them in the overall Legacy meta. REB is good against Fish, against New Horizons, against Vengvival, and against Thresh/Tempo strategies and that comprises a pretty healthy portion of the meta already. (It also allows you to stop TES from cantripping.) Ok, so it's a dead card against Goblins and Zoo. I'm still a pretty healthy favorite there and Spell Pierce is pretty much irrelavant in those MU's anyhow.

That's my rationale anyway, but Spell Pierce fills that spot adaquetly too.

JonBarber
10-21-2010, 01:26 PM
Here's the thing: Woodfall Primus was a 3 of for me when ThopterSword was gaining popularity a few months back and Landstill was still seeing a fair amount of play. Now due to the popularity of Vengevival in the current meta, ThopterSword and Landstill have fallen out of favor because they have a poor matchup against it. Thus, Woodfall Primus has become a less relavent spell right about now. In a long tournament, I may still have to stare down an Ensnaring Bridge at some point so I can't justify cutting it out completely, but the amount of times I actually want to Intuition for it is incredibly narrow. It could still happen and I'll take my lumps because I'd rather have a piece of countermagic in most circumstances.

Maindeck REBs. Aye. Didn't run them last Vestal, but the next day in Rochester I got devastated by Next Level Tempo and just barely snuck by Fish after dropping game 1. I went through my tournament history of late and found that they were entering my deck in 70% of my matches anyway. Among the decks that SneakShow struggles with (Tempo-based decks, Merfolk, Landstill, Thopter combo, and Mono-black Aggro) REB is an important card in the majority of them, especially considering the unequal proportion of Tempo and Merfolk among them in the overall Legacy meta. REB is good against Fish, against New Horizons, against Vengvival, and against Thresh/Tempo strategies and that comprises a pretty healthy portion of the meta already. (It also allows you to stop TES from cantripping.) Ok, so it's a dead card against Goblins and Zoo. I'm still a pretty healthy favorite there and Spell Pierce is pretty much irrelavant in those MU's anyhow.

That's my rationale anyway, but Spell Pierce fills that spot adaquetly too.

Makes sense. Considering that rational of improving bad matchups main deck, have you thought about adding blood moon back to the main? It simply wins against so many decks, and definitely helps the landstill and temp matchup. Not to mention, nuking vengevines duals shuts them off precious green mana. What you say are your big reasons for not playing it maindeck?

JustPAT4
10-21-2010, 01:45 PM
Makes sense. Considering that rational of improving bad matchups main deck, have you thought about adding blood moon back to the main? It simply wins against so many decks, and definitely helps the landstill and temp matchup. Not to mention, nuking vengevines duals shuts them off precious green mana. What you say are your big reasons for not playing it maindeck?

There's only one big reason--and those fuckers have gills!

I definitely think about it and it gets me excited in all the right places... That is, until I realize that I'd be starting a dead card against Merfolk. However, if I were a numbers man (which I am though I try my best to hide it) the risk reward ratio is pretty devastatingly in favor of mainboarding Blood Moon in today's Legacy game.

APodeschwa
10-21-2010, 07:37 PM
hmm well yes seething song is only desireable with sneak attack thats right and i also think i need to run a minimum of 9 creatures. its like having a creature thats only good with sneak attack - there ptutor might be better.

ptutor also reveales the plan and skips a draw step, but on the other hand it offers better draws against the deck that dont have an answer, it also slowes the opp saying: lay down a 2 drop and ill kill u the turn after. and running only 8 "i put a fatty into play"-spells is like only having 8 creatures, but u only need 1 creature the whole game for SaT and 2 for SA. if u lose a counter war another SaT or SA is needed. i like to have mystical back but that will not happen. i think ptutor > seething song overall. maybe 2 ptutor and 4 sneak attack.

isnt terrastodon better than primus? at least it has the chance to kill 3 of ur lands and the opp has to deal with 18 dmg next rurn. in my more SaT orriented build its stronger i guess.

any advices?

JustPAT4
10-21-2010, 08:02 PM
It's still situational, but yeah in a more SnT oriented build like yours Terastadon is probably preferable to Primus. We'll agree to disagree about Seething Song--I'm not sure we're hearing each other.

APodeschwa
10-22-2010, 09:59 AM
what about gigadrowse in the sb? eot tapp all ur lands and resolve a SA or SaT on the following turn only against his FoW.

+ each replicate copy can only be countered on his own. taps creatures if wanted.
- cost mana (minimum 2-3 blue), replicate is stifleable

what do u think running it as a 3 off in the sb? or instead of REB main if someone plays this ?

JustPAT4
10-22-2010, 12:01 PM
what about gigadrowse in the sb? eot tapp all ur lands and resolve a SA or SaT on the following turn only against his FoW.

+ each replicate copy can only be countered on his own. taps creatures if wanted.
- cost mana (minimum 2-3 blue), replicate is stifleable

what do u think running it as a 3 off in the sb? or instead of REB main if someone plays this ?

Meh, I'm not exactly sure what matchups you're thinking of. I can't see myself ever siding in Gigadrowse instead of REB/Blood Moon in the tempo matchups. I don't think this is the answer we're looking for. Defense Grid was a little closer, but I think you would focus on a different build entirely if Defense Grid was included.

In my opinion we can't afford to use precious slots MD or SB tapping someone out at end of turn or gaining a tempo by tapping a dude. We've gotta play to our strengths.

NukeMoose
10-24-2010, 03:59 PM
I've played this deck in about 5 tournaments with a several different versions. I was wondering how often Sneak Attack is relevant or wins games for you all? My experience is that SnT gets me the game 80-90% of the time. Is this normal? If not, what % of the time does Sneak work for you? If it is normal then is there something else we could use better than Sneak?

PaRa
10-24-2010, 04:30 PM
often SnT is the card that wins you the game but if you face decks that can put something into play with SnT that can stop your critter Sneak is the way to go.

Sneak Attack also often helped me out of situations in which a SnT would have been to slow as i wasn't able to cast it in turn 1-3 or it was simply countered.

You can play a different built a friend of mine played for some month with Eureka in the place of the Sneak Attack but it is UGB instead of UR so it is a little more vulnerable to wastelands. Still he had great finishes with his list.

But i don't know if it is the way to go to discuss one of the two key cards of the deck? Shoudn't we dicuss how to support the two cards the best we can :)

menace13
10-24-2010, 07:20 PM
Testing out Preordain x4 along with 8 usual cantrips, I like them a lot, turn 1 Cantrip is the 2nd best thing this deck can do aside SnT/Sneak and playing 12 lets me sculpt the first few turns if i cant win outright and are always welcomed draws.
Debating on 3 Lotus Petal main or 3 Spell Pierce, feel like i want Petal all the time(esp vs Zoo,Merf,Tempo), but Pierce helps against Combo and blue decks. Running Daze 4x for protection on early Show/Sneak, never sad to see one. I still get clucnky hands every 10th game or so where i open up on no action just daze/fow+cantrip+lands, or creatures+counters+lands or no landers with my terrible land count of 19 sometimes 1 lander with only Tomb, all very awkward- this gets worse if no Petals-. Anyone else see these kind of hands that often?

NukeMoose
10-25-2010, 01:10 AM
often SnT is the card that wins you the game but if you face decks that can put something into play with SnT that can stop your critter Sneak is the way to go.

Sneak Attack also often helped me out of situations in which a SnT would have been to slow as i wasn't able to cast it in turn 1-3 or it was simply countered.

You can play a different built a friend of mine played for some month with Eureka in the place of the Sneak Attack but it is UGB instead of UR so it is a little more vulnerable to wastelands. Still he had great finishes with his list.

But i don't know if it is the way to go to discuss one of the two key cards of the deck? Shoudn't we dicuss how to support the two cards the best we can :)

I understand and agree that Sneak is the "back up plan" to the usual SnT wins. I was just asking how often and useful the back up plan was going for everybody else. I don't think Eureka is any faster than Sneak, and it's also more risky (the individual card and the deck that's built around it); I really wasn't trying to argue that Sneak shouldn't be in the deck. My comment was mainly geared toward finding out how I can better use Sneak Attack since my experience with it has been less than stunning. Obviously Seething Song has an attraction to Sneak but that's really the only support card that goes soley to it (everything else supports SnT or both engines).

If I just haven't had enough experience and should keep my faith in Sneak winning games I'd like to hear that, too. I'm just surprised by difference in results I've had so far.

NukeMoose
10-25-2010, 01:17 AM
Testing out Preordain x4 along with 8 usual cantrips, I like them a lot, turn 1 Cantrip is the 2nd best thing this deck can do aside SnT/Sneak and playing 12 lets me sculpt the first few turns if i cant win outright and are always welcomed draws.
Debating on 3 Lotus Petal main or 3 Spell Pierce, feel like i want Petal all the time(esp vs Zoo,Merf,Tempo), but Pierce helps against Combo and blue decks. Running Daze 4x for protection on early Show/Sneak, never sad to see one. I still get clucnky hands every 10th game or so where i open up on no action just daze/fow+cantrip+lands, or creatures+counters+lands or no landers with my terrible land count of 19 sometimes 1 lander with only Tomb, all very awkward- this gets worse if no Petals-. Anyone else see these kind of hands that often?

I haven't had any serious testing with it but that was the first list I built. I played a ton of test hands and came to the conclusion that you can have too many cantrips and never put further effort into it. It's nice to be able to find the creature, enabler, mana or protection you need but it's horrible when you just dig into more and more cantrips while your opponent is actually doing something.

I suggest running 3 Intuition as that's the best way to find THE card you need. If you're running 12 cantrips and 3 intuituion then you've got way too many blue library spells.

JustPAT4
10-25-2010, 01:43 AM
I understand and agree that Sneak is the "back up plan" to the usual SnT wins. I was just asking how often and useful the back up plan was going for everybody else. I don't think Eureka is any faster than Sneak, and it's also more risky (the individual card and the deck that's built around it); I really wasn't trying to argue that Sneak shouldn't be in the deck. My comment was mainly geared toward finding out how I can better use Sneak Attack since my experience with it has been less than stunning. Obviously Seething Song has an attraction to Sneak but that's really the only support card that goes soley to it (everything else supports SnT or both engines).

If I just haven't had enough experience and should keep my faith in Sneak winning games I'd like to hear that, too. I'm just surprised by difference in results I've had so far.

Are you still running the Chalice/Trinisphere oriented build? I'd like to see an updated list from you for reference, but in any case I don't think your experience is A-typical in any way. Really this thread is (intentionally) misnamed. It would more aptly be titled Show and Tell with Sneak Attack since it is essentially a Show and Tell deck with a red splash for Sneak Attack and some of the best SB in Legacy (REB, Firespout, and Blood Moon). In my experience, Show and Tell is the prefered method about 80-85% of the time and is used about 75% of the time; however, there are many matches where you'll be happy you have Sneak Attck as an option.

So yeah, keep the faith, it'll win you some games that you have no reason to win.

menace13
10-25-2010, 02:13 AM
I haven't had any serious testing with it but that was the first list I built. I played a ton of test hands and came to the conclusion that you can have too many cantrips and never put further effort into it. It's nice to be able to find the creature, enabler, mana or protection you need but it's horrible when you just dig into more and more cantrips while your opponent is actually doing something.

I suggest running 3 Intuition as that's the best way to find THE card you need. If you're running 12 cantrips and 3 intuituion then you've got way too many blue library spells.

I tried the Intuition package for a while, i dont like it and only liked it against aggro decks, it did help out with opening hands w/o Creature or Cheat spell, but i would rather cast SnT/Song+Sneak when i get to 3 mana and all those cantrips let me make sure i get to 3 mana in a 19 land deck-with 4 colorless lands- while setting up Counter or missing combo part. I rarely have cantripped into nothing but more cantrips and the shuffle effect of Ponder,Fetches and scry with Preordain make sure I dont pick up extra Cantrips if i have nothing. Also have tested Tops and found them good against Janky discard decks like Eva/Deadguy/Pox, but slow, so i went with the Preordains. Maybe i am not using the Intuitions correctly, but i am much happier casting cantrips turn 1 and 2 than waiting for 3 mana on Intuiition.

JonBarber
10-25-2010, 02:24 AM
I went 4-2 at the Toronto Legacy portion of the GP. I lost round 1 to a Turn 2 show and tell by having my oppenent flip over a shriekmaw to my emrakul. Game 3 I mulled to 4. I then lost my last round to GB Vengevival maindecking big game hunter and shriekmaw. Certainly not a fun matchup.

Sneak attack is terrific against decks with edict effects, cards like shriekmaw, or the mirror. Sideboard idea- (not saying it should be run, but just gathering thoughts) what does everyone think of Form of the Dragon for the sb? Its insane vs merfolk, and really good vs vengevine survival (as long as you can deal with wonder, but one would assume they sided that out anyways). Not as good as firespout vs goblins and zoo though. Thoughts/opinions?

JustPAT4
10-25-2010, 03:18 AM
Sideboard idea- (not saying it should be run, but just gathering thoughts) what does everyone think of Form of the Dragon for the sb? Its insane vs merfolk, and really good vs vengevine survival (as long as you can deal with wonder, but one would assume they sided that out anyways). Not as good as firespout vs goblins and zoo though. Thoughts/opinions?

I think about adding copies of Form of the Dragon on the regular. After Emrakul and Progen it seems to be hands down one of the best spells in the game off of SnT. The main problem is that it blows with Sneak Attack... Still, it wrecks New Horizons and goblins as well as being sick against merfolk and post-board vs. vengevival. That alone I think makes it worthy of consideration at the very least.

For your viewing pleasure, I've been toying with the black splash for some time now since Vengevival is eervreewhere, paying careful attention to play the same number of basics so I can still effectively play around Wasteland and still utilize Blood Moon. I've been testing on MWS (since I don't actually have time to play competetive magic until mid-november) and I find this list to be friggin filthy:

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
2 Woodfall Primus

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Intuition

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
1 Mountain

SB:

3 Extirpate
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth


There's still quite a bit of room to play with both maindeck and sideboard for any given environment, but I'm finding this to be more flexible, more reliable, consistently fast, and (potentially) more interactive than typical UR builds. Lim-Dul's Vault seems beauteous for this deck and Extirpate is such a bomb right about now.

ReAnimator
10-25-2010, 11:33 AM
I went 4-2 at the Toronto Legacy portion of the GP. I lost round 1 to a Turn 2 show and tell by having my oppenent flip over a shriekmaw to my emrakul. Game 3 I mulled to 4. I then lost my last round to GB Vengevival maindecking big game hunter and shriekmaw. Certainly not a fun matchup.


I was the guy with GB survival, i'm pretty sure we played in round 4, not 6.

Form seems like really sick tech, though i think it's only good if people don't know about it, there is a good chance people will still have enchantment hate boarded in because of sneak.

NukeMoose
10-25-2010, 12:39 PM
Are you still running the Chalice/Trinisphere oriented build? I'd like to see an updated list from you for reference, but in any case I don't think your experience is A-typical in any way. Really this thread is (intentionally) misnamed. It would more aptly be titled Show and Tell with Sneak Attack since it is essentially a Show and Tell deck with a red splash for Sneak Attack and some of the best SB in Legacy (REB, Firespout, and Blood Moon). In my experience, Show and Tell is the prefered method about 80-85% of the time and is used about 75% of the time; however, there are many matches where you'll be happy you have Sneak Attck as an option.

So yeah, keep the faith, it'll win you some games that you have no reason to win.

I've played about 3 tournaments with the Red Stax build but I've since switched to the heavy blue builds with a Green splash for K grip. What I was getting at with my first question is that if SnT is the biggest reason we are winning then perhaps a discard package could be more helpful than countermagic for protection. Thoughtseize/Unmask and Hymn to Tourach could stop your opponent from using SnT and it can also blank their answers to your cards or stop combos.

It's just a thought. I like trying to keep this thread active.

NukeMoose
10-25-2010, 12:45 PM
I tried the Intuition package for a while, i dont like it and only liked it against aggro decks, it did help out with opening hands w/o Creature or Cheat spell, but i would rather cast SnT/Song+Sneak when i get to 3 mana and all those cantrips let me make sure i get to 3 mana in a 19 land deck-with 4 colorless lands- while setting up Counter or missing combo part. I rarely have cantripped into nothing but more cantrips and the shuffle effect of Ponder,Fetches and scry with Preordain make sure I dont pick up extra Cantrips if i have nothing. Also have tested Tops and found them good against Janky discard decks like Eva/Deadguy/Pox, but slow, so i went with the Preordains. Maybe i am not using the Intuitions correctly, but i am much happier casting cantrips turn 1 and 2 than waiting for 3 mana on Intuiition.

I'm still running Ponder and Brainstorm so I have things to do in the first two turns. We're each playing 11-12 blue library cards it's just that the Intution version has a more powerful mid/late game since it can find exactly what you want after turn 3 rather than be restricted to looking at the top three cards of your library.

thranmonster
10-26-2010, 07:02 PM
Sick find addaro!

This list made Top 4 at the 245 player Eternal Festival in Tokyo (The text after the list are Tomoharu Saito’s impressions):

Show and Tell/Sneak Attack / Yuuki Ookubo – Top 4

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Echoing Truth

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

2 Lotus Petal

3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

• Sideboard

3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
2 Perish

"This deck uses Show and Tell and Sneak Attack to put huge creatures into play. Here, white and black were added to earlier blue and red versions, in particular Enlightened Tutor. Because of this card you can tutor for Sneak Attack, but also if you only have Show and Tell in hand you can search for Sphinx of the Steel Wind. As such, it seemed that due to the white splash the deck’s stability had increased considerably. I felt that Personal Tutor had much the same effect. And, it’s interesting to think that in a long game you could probably also win by hardcasting Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Because it is four colors, I had the feeling that this deck could still develop further. This build plays Enlightened Tutor, and as a result if I were to play this deck I have the feeling I would like to play one copy of Oblivion Ring in the main deck or sideboard to handle my opponent’s various enormous permanents in the mirror including Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Then, even if my opponent put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play using Show and Tell when I have Progenitus in play, I could search for Oblivion Ring using Enlightened Tutor and regain control."

There are so many places to pick up discussion on this list and Saito's brief analysis... White for MD E-tutor and SB Meddling Mage, Black for SB Extirpate and Perish, MD Pyroblast/REB, No Seething Song, 21 MD land with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors Split... Increased vulnerability to Wasteland... No Blood Moon option. Black splash, but no MD Lim-Dul's Vault ( which seems pretty spicy).

This one's juicy folks and there's LOTS of places to go with this discussion. Can't wait to get something rolling! :laugh:

No one has any comments? I am so tempted to play this at a tourny. Very fresh deck.

Muppet86
10-27-2010, 12:38 PM
The list from Japan is decent, although it has a lot of one offs. The one personal tutor to find to one piece you want? Enlightend tutor is a way to make the deck a more control of list, instead of beating the hell out of your oppponent in the beginning.

You say you can not play blood moon in that list? Sure you can, you play 3 mountains and 1 island. Make it 2-2 and blood moon is still a strong sb card. The addition of meddling mage, i don;t know. I rather prefer other cards than a singleton lock creature. Against what decks would board it in? All our bad match ups get rid of it pretty easily.

I have changed my list to become rather consistant mb. The 4 intuition make the deck a lot stronger. With that you can make a sb that will coexist with it.

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Lotus Petal

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progentius

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

The spell pierces can be traded in for REB/pyroblast of you prefer.

PaRa
10-28-2010, 11:38 AM
You say you can not play blood moon in that list? Sure you can, you play 3 mountains and 1 island. Make it 2-2 and blood moon is still a strong sb card.

I think you got something wrong there. We all play 3 Islands and 1 Mountain and i really see no sence at all to increase the Mountain count when all your non basics become Mountains anyway due to the Blood Moon ???

By the way, anybody here going to the GP in Bochum?

APodeschwa
10-28-2010, 11:45 AM
i will be there...but ill play the main events but if im not making day2, i'll play the legacy event SO morning. has anyone a sideboard plan, expecially against merfolk and new horizons its hard what to take. can anyone make a good sb plan for this liste here:

// Lands
3 [B] Island (3)
1 [A] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [WWK] Terastodon

// Spells
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [NE] Daze
2 [PT] Personal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

rgripp
10-29-2010, 11:18 AM
I'm going to a medium tournament tomorrow (expecting like 24-28 people) and I'm running the following list:

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Island

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus

2 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

3 Intuition
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

I'm expecting a lot of supreme blue and merfolks, some goblins, the ocasional dredge and zoo.

I'm still working on a sideboard, but I reckon it will look like this:
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Vexing Shusher (really good against Merfolks. You play one on turn 2, Show and Tell as soon as you can and then you can sac it to the edicts if the guy splashed black)
3 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Form of the Dragon
3 Pyroblast/REB

I don't really like Blood Moon in the SB, considering the only deck I find it really shines in against is Supreme Blue, which isn't exactly a bad matchup.

JustPAT4
10-29-2010, 12:18 PM
I don't really like Blood Moon in the SB, considering the only deck I find it really shines in against is Supreme Blue, which isn't exactly a bad matchup.

I think you're WAY off about Blood Moon. It's easily one of the best cards in the 75 card list and even deserves main deck consideration in the current legacy environment.

A resolved Blood Moon is usually gg vs. New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, Next Level Thresh, Teem America, The Rock, CounterTop, Bant, ProBant, 43 Lands, Landstill...Shall I continue? It cuts most Vengvival builds off of precious Green mana. It reduces Zoo to a deck that plays Kird Apes and Burn spells. It's a devastation against Enchantress. It turns Karakas into mush. It's effective against ThopterSword Combo and UW Tempo. It's gold against CounterSliver.

So I think you really need to reevaluate Blood Moon. It's transpearanlty one of the biggest threats this deck has to its credit.

Muppet86
11-03-2010, 09:16 AM
How did you guy's do how went to the GP?

JonBarber
11-03-2010, 03:41 PM
GP Toronto? My two loses were to decks maindecking shriekmaw and big game hunter.

codegeass
11-04-2010, 09:03 AM
I want to build this deck. how is the game against aggro decks? i see alot of merfolk and zoo at my metagame. Also how often do you not have a show and tell or a sneak attack when you need it? Or have one of those but do not have any creatures? i really like the ideal of running 3xIntuition i think it is almost essential to the deck.

klaus
11-04-2010, 09:41 AM
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I like your maindeck, but I think Personal Tutor might be too slow. Preordain looks better imo.

Also: you should consider cutting Crypt from your sb, as it's really only good versus Dredge.
Spell Pierce looks stronger imo, as it's an out to a larger variety of strategies (as well as dredge).
If you really wanna play gy hate go for 3 Faerie Macabre (faster + more relative profit) - you're playing a fast deck afterall.
Either way, I'd replace 1 Pyroblast and 2 Wipe Away's with 3 Pierces in that case.

rgripp
11-04-2010, 11:35 AM
I want to build this deck. how is the game against aggro decks? i see alot of merfolk and zoo at my metagame. Also how often do you not have a show and tell or a sneak attack when you need it? Or have one of those but do not have any creatures? i really like the ideal of running 3xIntuition i think it is almost essential to the deck.

Merfolk is a tough matchup. It has enough disruption to shut you down, and a fast enough clock to profit from it. Zoo on the other hand, is a really easy matchup, considering they have close to no answers to a show and tell.

codegeass
11-04-2010, 02:20 PM
Merfolk is a tough matchup. It has enough disruption to shut you down, and a fast enough clock to profit from it. Zoo on the other hand, is a really easy matchup, considering they have close to no answers to a show and tell.

hi thanks for the reply i would like to ask you two more question about the deck 1.how often do you not have a show and tell or a sneak attack when you need it? Or have one of those but do not have any creatures? I really like the ideal of running 3xIntuition i think it is almost essential to the deck. 2.Is there any answer to moat or humility? There is at least 4 landstill players in my metagame and enchantress is popular.

JonBarber
11-04-2010, 02:23 PM
hi thanks for the reply i would like to ask you two more question about the deck 1.how often do you not have a show and tell or a sneak attack when you need it? Or have one of those but do not have any creatures? I really like the ideal of running 3xIntuition i think it is almost essential to the deck. 2.Is there any answer to moat or humility? There is at least 4 landstill players in my metagame and enchantress is popular.

Your answer to moat is Emrakul or woodfall primus. Humility is wipe away/echoing truth fromt the board.

You usually go for show and tell because its faster, but if your oppenent is playing black or something playing emrakul/progenitus sneak attack is the better way to go.

Also, if you maindeck REB/Pryoblast, merfolk is a much easier matchup.

NukeMoose
11-07-2010, 01:01 AM
I haven't seen a whole lot of debate between Woodfall Primus and Terastodon but most of the lists I've seen use Primus. What's the main reasoning for this? I have yet to seriously test either but I'm looking for a third creature to use for utility and wanted to hear your opinions. On paper, the Elephant looks like a better option to me as it can put more power/faster clock on your side while laughing off StP.

However I'm guessing you rarely need to kill 3 lock pieces to swing for the win, and trading your board for elephant tokens may not be as great of a play as I am thinking it can be (EE, Echoing Truth, Firespout, etc).

What do you all think?

death
11-07-2010, 01:19 PM
I haven't seen a whole lot of debate between Woodfall Primus and Terastodon but most of the lists I've seen use Primus. What's the main reasoning for this?

Persist.

Trample.

5~6 dmg.

NukeMoose
11-07-2010, 01:50 PM
Persist.

Trample.

5~6 dmg.


You may be surprised to know that I've read the card before. I was simply asking why those traits are better than the abilities of the Elephant in most/all situations. I'm very open to reason but telling me "x is better because it does what x does on the card" isn't much help.

IsThisACatInAHat?
11-08-2010, 07:59 AM
Primus is a better card because it 1. can target creatures without giving your opponent a 3/3, which can be extremely relevant if you can't go off with Emrakul and 2. stays on the board after a Sneak Attack. Destroying 3 permanents versus 2 really isn't a huge deal since very rarely is the ideal play SnT-> Terastodon-> blow up 3 lands for elephants, which is the best possible scenario you could hope for.

Anyway, I just T8'd Boston with the 4c SneakShow deck from this (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/examining-the-top-8-decks-at-tokyo%E2%80%99s-eternal-festival/) thread, -1 Intuition because it was 61 cards... silly Japanese. I can't say for sure if it should have been -1 Personal Tutor instead since I never saw it except during the quarters, during which it was useful only because I desperately needed a shuffle after an awful Brainstorm. The extra SnT/ sweeper postboard are nice in theory, but both P. Tutor and Intuition were equally underwhelming all day, so it feels like choosing between bad and worse. Epic long report is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19270-Sneaking-into-top-8-Attacking-for-15-Showing-up-in-Boston-Telling-you-all-about-it&p=499896).

Hopo
11-08-2010, 08:37 AM
Primus is a better card because it 1. can target creatures without giving your opponent a 3/3

Primus cannot target creatures. Otherwise it's more solid since it stays on board after sneaking it in play. Both Terastodon and Primus are still lacking shroud of any kind, so I'm not too eager to play with neither.

Wilkin
11-08-2010, 10:19 PM
GP Toronto? My two loses were to decks maindecking shriekmaw and big game hunter.

Tough luck Jon. I was one the guys maindecking Shriekmaw. I had a feeling it was Emrakul or Iona, crossed my fingers that it wasn't Progenitus (which you did in game 2).

Just wondering, is there a good solution to an opponent having something like Shriekmaw, Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake etc. other than playing Sneak attack or playing Progenitus? I've seen on Star City where someone had Vendillion Clique in it, which I kind of like. It lets you see if playing Show and Tell is a good idea and can put that Shriekmaw on the bottom of the library.

Thinking of building the deck myself. I think Primus is better than Terastodon. My reasoning....Off of a Sneak attack Primus swings for 6 and kills 2 non-creature permanents. And then comes back as a 5/5. Terastdon can kill 3 non-creature permanents but if you kill one of theirs they can chump block the Terastodon. And then the 9/9 elephant dies.

rgripp
11-10-2010, 09:02 AM
The reason I don't like the Primus, is the same reason I don't like Iona.

While the Primus is a great Sneak Attack creature, it's subpar on Show and Tell. It's clock is too slow and it eats all the removal in the field.
Iona on the other hand, is a great Show and Tell creature, but subpar on Sneak Attack.

Honestly, the best solution against Ensnaring Bridge or Moat is an Echoing Truth or Wipe Away.

Nekrataal
11-10-2010, 10:30 AM
I played the deck in a 20 player tournament going second place. Until round 4 I was undefeated (12:0) playing against Random Deck, 43 Lands, Merfolk, 4c Thopter Foundry Landstill. In the last match I lost my luck and was screwed 2 times. The first time it was my own fault being too optimistic about my starting hand. The second time it was just being screwed hard even after 2 mulligans. All in all I was pretty satisfied with my build even against Countermagic or Countermagic paired with a strong clock (Merfolk). Most valuable thing recognized: Emrakuls Annihilator ability always empties the board no matter what advantage was gained by the opponent in 3 to 4 turns.

My list was:

// Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island

4 Lotus Petal

// Enabler: 8
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

// Impact: 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Progenitus
2 Woodfall Primus

// Dig and Search: 12
2 Intuition
2 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

// Backup: 10
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away

// SB
1 Spinal Villain (more a fun slot but actually it was relevant in my 2. game against Merfolk. Emrakul emptied the board coming into play via Sneak Attack. Then I had to wait several rounds until the next monster showed up. Inbetween I drew and played this little guy which kept the board clear of any pesty folks.)
3 Extirpate
3 Firespout
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Pyroblast/REB
3 Blood Moon


I included a black splash last minute because I wanted to have those Extirpates against Vengevine shenanigans. Wood fall Primus was infact relevant in a few games e.g. against Lands removing Karakas or removed Pithing Needle. Progenitus actually is the worst of the Impact cards except against decks utilizing Sower where Emrakul can be a treacherous Out. Blood Moon was THE SB card in some of the matches (Lands, Landstill). I had an epic game against Thopter Foundry playing like 20 rounds draw and go because my opponent wasn't able to find any Basics and I wasn't able to find S&T or Wipe Away to bounce his Needle on Sneak Attack. However funniest match I had in a while.

PaRa
11-11-2010, 04:06 AM
How where the Sensei's Divining Tops for you?

I really like the black splash i might think about it too.

Nekrataal
11-11-2010, 08:11 AM
Well I just play two because of the "space issue" but they were always welcome. Together with Fetchlands they are a great tool in this deck. Probably one could play more in exchange with Ponder e.g. 3/3 Split. On the other hand I often use the shuffle effect from Ponder.

The black splash wasn't needed for what I intended it for (Vengevine). Nevertheless the splash is light-weighted and the deck can support it. it even can come as a surprise if you haven't revealed Badlands to your opponent. Actually I boarded it in a couple of games but never came to play it (I just win too fast ;-) ). Obviously Extirpate is good if you a dragged into a longer game against Lands and Thopter Foundry stripping them off their engine / win condition respectively.

Imported sidenote: If you board Bloodmoon make sure you play it with BOTH Islands in play. The reason for this is Needle. Everyone is playing it these days because of Survival and it is good against us because it renders 50% of our enablers useless. With two Islands you have the chance to actually play "Wipe Away". Otherwise you are screwed yourself or you have to play Echoing Truth.

Tokobotenkai
11-12-2010, 11:30 AM
@Nekrataal:

Why Badlands over Underground Sea?

I normally want to see U mana over R (at least during my plays).

Nekrataal
11-15-2010, 06:37 AM
Well before I played a basic mountain in this slot and it was a short-termed change. Probably Underground Sea is fine as well because you can fetch it more easily.

APodeschwa
11-15-2010, 02:05 PM
The URwb list has won some bigger tourneys but honestly i dont know why...having e.tutor does make the deck more consistant but the bad matchups are canadian, merfolk, TES and some other. having more than 2 colours is the opposite of a plus against the tempo decks (canadian, merfolk,...). i think 2 colours is enough and instead of playing e.tutor i would suggest playing preordain.

atm im playing the following deck:

// Lands
4 [B] Island (3)
1 [A] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [NE] Daze
3 [M11] Preordain

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth

i really like the draws offered by preordain :-)

rgripp
11-15-2010, 09:25 PM
A Sneak Attack deck just won a 87-player tournament in Brazil. I'll see if I can get the list...

IsThisACatInAHat?
11-15-2010, 11:22 PM
The URwb list has won some bigger tourneys but honestly i dont know why...having e.tutor does make the deck more consistant but the bad matchups are canadian, merfolk, TES and some other. having more than 2 colours is the opposite of a plus against the tempo decks (canadian, merfolk,...). i think 2 colours is enough and instead of playing e.tutor i would suggest playing preordain.
The correct color splash seems pretty meta-dependent. UR is objectively faster and better against naturally bad matchups, which are tempo-based disruption decks like Merfolk, TA and Canadian. 4c has a stronger late game, a better TES matchup and can more easily fight through hate. Though the improvement against Merfolk is a considerable advantage for UR, I'm pretty sure there are only like 6 people in the world still playing non-Merfolk tempo decks. Your most current list shows maturity; cutting Seething Song and upping the land count to at least 20 is pretty universal for any version that wants to be competitive in the long term. The only direct improvement I can think of for your list would be a 2/2 split of Tomb/City, but aside from that, it plays very well.

Gui
11-18-2010, 03:24 PM
A Sneak Attack deck just won a 87-player tournament in Brazil. I'll see if I can get the list...

The list (translating the comments =P (I wasn't the one playing, just found the list)):

Decklist:

//Monsters:
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2x Progenitus (trash)

//Monster food:
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal

//Monster support:
3x Trinisphere
4x Blood Moon
4x Brainstorm

//Monsters best friends:
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack

//Lands:
3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Volcanic Island
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

//Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Defense Grid
1x Trinisphere
4x Shattering Spree
3x Echoing Truth

Tokobotenkai
11-18-2010, 03:27 PM
Looks rather interesting, though wouldn't 3sphere screw with the brainstorms and petals?

Broham
11-18-2010, 03:35 PM
The Brainstorms are probably used as soon as possible to dig for a third or fourth mana source to play Show and Tell, Sneak Attack or the Trinisphere - after that the card would be obsolete. Almost the same for Lotus Petal, if you already have the Trinisphere down, then you probably don't need the Lotus Petal. This deck is very streamlined, hell I'd even try to shove in Street Wraiths to make her faster.

APodeschwa
11-20-2010, 04:20 PM
i like the brasilian deck, a mixture of dragon stompy and sneakshow, but i think it needs more consisty. i would like to add intuition, i would cut elvish spirit guides. and by the way why only 2 progenitus and more eldrazis, prognitus has to be a 4 off, becuase it has sword to plowshares protection which all the eldrazis dont have.

NukeMoose
11-22-2010, 04:17 PM
Speaking of irregular lists, any thoughts on this list I've been working on?

I've replaced Sneak with Stronghold Gambit (go ahead, look it up). This makes both of our cheat-enablers the same style (rather than Iona being good with one card, bad with the other).

http:// http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21357

It's way more powerful against control decks but is slower against decks that can sandbag creatures. I'm trying to find a sideboard that accounts for this.

4 Show and Tell
4 Stronghold Gambit
3 Progenitus
3 Iona
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Intuition

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Gemstone Mine

Nekrataal
11-23-2010, 08:49 AM
The brasilian list is made for speed with comboing early or bringing down a lock piece as early as T1. It is less synergetic (Trinisphere - Brainstorm?) and looks atr least more inconsistent to play. I still prefer a version with more control / savety and search elements (Fow, Daze, Ponder).

Stronghold Gambit: "Each player chooses a card in his or her hand. Then each player reveals his or her chosen card. The owner of each creature card revealed this way with the lowest converted mana cost puts it onto the battlefield."

Help me here. So the card is a gamble if the opponent holds any creature or not? I would say in a aggro meta (which we face) this is ... like not good?

NukeMoose
11-23-2010, 02:36 PM
The brasilian list is made for speed with comboing early or bringing down a lock piece as early as T1. It is less synergetic (Trinisphere - Brainstorm?) and looks atr least more inconsistent to play. I still prefer a version with more control / savety and search elements (Fow, Daze, Ponder).

Stronghold Gambit: "Each player chooses a card in his or her hand. Then each player reveals his or her chosen card. The owner of each creature card revealed this way with the lowest converted mana cost puts it onto the battlefield."

Help me here. So the card is a gamble if the opponent holds any creature or not? I would say in a aggro meta (which we face) this is ... like not good?

I've played to DS version and although it can be very powerful it's much more inconsistant than the cantrip versions. I can see it making it showing once a year or so, but it's not going to put up results very often.

Stronghold Gambit is ridiculously good against creatureless decks (enchantress, storm, belcher, hivemind, landstill, countertop) and strong against creature-light decks (dream halls, team america, rock). In order to beat aggro decks you need to help them lose their hand (thoughtseize, hymn, clique) or find SNT. Against aggro, Sneak was never very helpful to me as it comes down much slower and doesn't give you a guy to block with (so only Emrakul helps, and if they have 7+ things you still lose).

I'm not trying to argue this is a better deck, but I feel like most people have never even heard of this conditional SNT and might be able to take this in a positive direction. I think thoughtseize and hymn are way better support cards than daze/spell pierce toward resolving our main plan, however since we've changed 4/8 of our main plan cards I would like it if others could help me test this path out to see if it's viable.

JustPAT4
11-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Hey NukeMoose,

I think that you have an interesting idea that might be viable, and even preferable, given the right environment. However, I'm worried that you've found the wrong place to start discussion on it.

The thread is titled "Sneak Attack with Show and Tell" in the hope that people will discuss ways to support the combination of those two spells. Your list doesn't include Sneak Attack. I'm sure there's a dedicated Show and Tell thread that would be a better breading ground for your idea. APodeschwa has an interesting and under-appreciated thread titled "URg- APO Show and Tell." Just a thought.

Anyway, I'm interested in your assertion that the discard package is better support than the non-FOW counter package. I've tested Thoughtsieze on a number of occasions and have had mixed results. I would agree that discard is nice for this deck, but it seems like bonus to me-- definitely not disappointing, but rarely essential. It certainly doesn't do for us what is does for TES or ANT.

Thoughts?

APodeschwa
11-23-2010, 07:27 PM
i think discard is ok, perhaps an alternative for daze, the good think about discard is that u know what ur opp. will put into play via show and tell. another bonus is that u neednt cast it the turn u wanna do business. a minus is that ull need a 3rd colour with will hurt ur manabase a bit (not too much). and with gw surv on the rise daze doesnt counter survival very often.

in the cantrip version discard is definately playable: 1st choice: tseize, 2nd choice: duress

black for discard makes the quality of the deck a bit better, but the manabase a bit worser.

NukeMoose
11-23-2010, 11:46 PM
@JustPAT4

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have hesitated posting this idea here, but this is my favorite style of deck right now and I like to spark discussion (even if it's a little tangential to the thread's main focus). I also feel like I'd receive better feedback here than starting a new post (although I'll have to check out the one you pointed me to, but I haven't seen it on the first page in a long time so I thought it was dead).

Anyways, I have thought about suggesting Stronghold Gambit for the sideboard as it's better than SNT against many decks but going in to a large tournament you rarely want to maindeck something that creatures strategies hose (without a discard package).

However, just after playing this version, I think I will work on trying to fit black into my Sneak deck. Thoughtseize is extremely powerful and the information you get out of seeing your opponent's hand can often be the difference in winning the game or rolling over to their deck. For strict UR versions, I advocate using Vendillion Clique for this role.

I'm still uncertain to what my 4-8 discard spells should be. Hymn is always powerful but sometimes not the right tool I need. BB is also hard to support. Inquisition helps support Gambit, but cannot fight through force of will or nab nasty stuff you don't want them to SnT in. My first choice was Parallax Nexus for this role, but I feel like without Stifle's to stop their cards returning it was just too slow and awkward. Mindtwist could be usefle in decks that run Seething Song, Tomb, Cities and other mana accel. I might try this next myself.

9volt
11-25-2010, 02:45 AM
The list (translating the comments =P (I wasn't the one playing, just found the list)):

Decklist:
[cards]
//Monsters:
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2x Progenitus (trash)

...

Just out of curiosity, why does it say "trash" after Progenitus? Are they trying to imply that the card is no good?

Tokobotenkai
11-25-2010, 07:37 AM
Just out of curiosity, why does it say "trash" after Progenitus? Are they trying to imply that the card is no good?

Yes. As you usually will go for Emrakul over prog unless you see stuff like Karakas in play. There are very few situations where prog is better than Emrakul.

What's more, prog doesn't get rid of stuff on board unlike the annihilator effect, meaning it's easier to be outraced.

Nekrataal
11-25-2010, 10:42 AM
Especially with Sneak Attack Emrakul does much more than Progenitus. Progenitus is only a more save option against some decks that support things Emrakul can't deal with like Oblivion Ring or Sower. Also Progenitus can be pitched for FoW.

9volt
11-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Ah, I see. Good points.

JimmyC27
11-28-2010, 04:40 PM
Hey there. I just picked this deck up in the last couple of weeks. I run the obvious 4x Emrakul. However, the next 3-5 creatures seem to be up for debate--so I was hoping to get your opinions before purchasing more critters. I see a lot of 4x Progenitus (or 3x Progen, 1x Sphinx) filling these next creature spots. I've also seen some Woodfall Primus, and dudes with "Annihilator X". Iona? Inkwell Leviathan? Simic Sky Swallower (hehe)?

In general, it seems like I'm looking for something that has:

High strength (1-3 turn clock?)
Shroud of some sort (pro white for STP seems to be pretty important)
"Screw the other guy effects" (Annihilator, Vindicate effects, etc.)

Thanks for your help.

Jimmy



For reference, my decklist is below:

(20) Lands

3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

(8) Creatures

4 Emrakul
4 ???

(13) Finders

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Intuition

(8) Cheaters

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

(7) Counters

4 FOW
3 Daze

(4) Other

3 Lotus Petal
1 Echoing Truth

(15) Sideboard

2 Echoing Truth
4 Extirpate
3 Firespout
3 Blood Moon
3 REB

Tokobotenkai
11-28-2010, 06:52 PM
I would cut 1-2 lands for additional counters/creatures as you already run 3 petals.

As of current I'm running a 2/2 Split for Prog (in case of stuff like karakas) and Primus (blows up pesty pw/enchantments/artifacts).

JimmyC27
11-28-2010, 07:05 PM
Have you tried Angel of Despair over Woodfall Primus? I know you only get one blow up effect, but you get a 5/5 flyer that can also hit creatures. Do we need to hit creatures for anything, like Death and Taxes?

Tokobotenkai
11-29-2010, 08:59 AM
Have you tried Angel of Despair over Woodfall Primus? I know you only get one blow up effect, but you get a 5/5 flyer that can also hit creatures. Do we need to hit creatures for anything, like Death and Taxes?

It's good. Flying is almost considered evasion in legacy and blows up almost everything.

I would say AoD and Primus would be picked based on metagame.

I'm using Primus because the only person in my meta playing Karakas and/or Death&Taxes is me.

Nekrataal
11-29-2010, 09:49 AM
The reason to play Primus is two-fold. Unlike other creatures like Angel of Despair it is not only good with S&T but perfectly good with Sneak Attack because of its Persist ability. It triggers TWICE (so remove two non-creature permanents) and it is still a 5/5 beater after having it sacced once. Actually considering Sneak Attack, Primus is even better than Progenitus imho. There is no way I would play any other creature besides those three except maybe additional Eldrazi. Always remember: A creature for this deck must be good with Sneak Attack AND S&T. This renders a lot of typical Reanimtor or S&T targets unplayable.

JimmyC27
11-29-2010, 05:00 PM
Does anyone use the Kamigawa dragons? Kokusho or Yosei seem legit. Keiga can steal creatures on the way out with Sneak.

JonBarber
11-29-2010, 05:03 PM
Does anyone use the Kamigawa dragons? Kokusho or Yosei seem legit. Keiga can steal creatures on the way out with Sneak.

5 damage plus stealing a goyf? Seems underwhelming.. Especially if they are put into play off of a show and tell.

JimmyC27
11-29-2010, 05:10 PM
5 damage plus stealing a goyf? Seems underwhelming.. Especially if they are put into play off of a show and tell.

Yeah. Of the three, I'd be least enthused about Keiga. Kokusho at least can do ten damage, and grab you 5 life via Sneak. It'd probably be the first one I would playtest.

APodeschwa
11-29-2010, 06:44 PM
all of the kamigawa dragons are worser than the eldrazi. and all of the eldrazis (except emrakul) are worser than progenitus and emrakul (or woodfall primus) because none of them are StP proof. i would even play liege of the tangle above the other eldrazis.

Nekrataal
12-01-2010, 10:06 AM
Kamigawa Dragons are simply unplayable because they do not win you the game or provide enough time when brought into play via Sneak Attack. Stop thinking "Reanimator"!

Emrakul:
----------
Via S&T: Auto-Win if played early enough. Annihilator 6, hits for 15 hard to deal with except a few cards
Via Sneak Attack: usually gives you 2-5 extra rounds where your opponents needs to recover, hits for 15, alnost impossible to deal with when sneaked in. Plus it shuffles your complete GY including himself into your library. Most of the times you what exactly that to happen.

Progenitus:
-------------
Via S&T: Auto-Win if played early enough. Hits for 10 and almost impossible to deal with
Via Sneak Attack: Unfortunately that is his weakness. He just hits for 10. Shuffles your library

Woodfall Primus:
-------------------
Via S&T: Unfortunately that is his weakness. Removes a noncreature permanent and can trample for 6-x.
Via Sneak Attack: His strength's here. Remove 2 noncreature permanents and hit for 6. Have a 5/5 trampler after your opponent has been set back up to 2 rounds (even better if going sccrewed). Quite relevant for me in some games: Is an out to Karakas.


Every other creature has to be compared to that e.g.

Kokusho:
----------
Via S&T: Underwhelming 5/5 creature with evasion
Via Sneak Attack:Underwhelming. Hits for 10 is OK but gaining 5 life is more or less irrelevant for the deck. It doesn't shuffle your library nor remove any critical permanents nor set back your opponent. It is no out in special situations like Primus.

JimmyC27
12-01-2010, 12:19 PM
Progenitus:
-------------
Via S&T: Auto-Win if played early enough. Hits for 10 and almost impossible to deal with
Via Sneak Attack: Unfortunately that is his weakness. He just hits for 10. Shuffles your library

Woodfall Primus:
-------------------
Via S&T: Unfortunately that is his weakness. Removes a noncreature permanent and can trample for 6-x.
Via Sneak Attack: His strength's here. Remove 2 noncreature permanents and hit for 6. Have a 5/5 trampler after your opponent has been set back up to 2 rounds (even better if going sccrewed). Quite relevant for me in some games: Is an out to Karakas.



Does this mean a 2/2 split with Progenitus and Woodfall Primus is the way to go, to avoid having 4 weak creatures with Sneak? Or do you play 3/1, 4/0 Progen/Woodfall because Show and Tell is the more often used cheater card?

JimmyC27
12-02-2010, 03:14 AM
If I can't find 4x Progenitus before the next tournament, is it better to run 4x Iona or 4x Bogardian Hellkite?

caenel
12-02-2010, 05:57 AM
Hey guys,

I'm prepping for a tournament and at the moment, my deck of choice will be this one. I have a pretty basic maindeck, but there are some things that I'm not really pleased with yet and would like to have your input. Here is the decklist:


3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce

3 Woodfall Primus

2 Seething Song
4 Sneak Attack

3 Progenitus

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout


The main problems in testing I have at the moment are mana issues. I often have a hard time getting to 3 or 4 mana quickly to cast/protect an early Show and Tell. Another problem is sometimes finding a Show and Tell to go off (Intuition is nice, but at 3 mana, is kind of expensive. Especially when you already have mana issues and often need to use a Lotus Petal to fire off the Intuition). I'm thinking of adding 1 or 2 Personal Tutor as extra Show and Tells. At the moment I'm looking at changing this:
-2 Seething Song
+1 Ancient Tomb
+1 Personal Tutor

I know, Seething Song is great when coupled with Sneak Attack, but every other time it is just an awefull topdeck. With these changes in mind, I would also change the creature package a bit (since I would be putting more focus on Show and Tell than on Sneak Attack) to this:
+1 Progenitus
-1 Woodfall Primus

I'm expecting a field with a decent amount of storm combo, Vengevine Survival and Merfolk. Also, Goblins, Landstill and other Survival builds will be there. The tournament will probably have 50+ players, so I'll be running into a lot of different decks. If anyone has good ideas/additions/changes for the sideboard or certain sideboard plans for a specific matchup, I would greatly appreciate it if you would share your thoughts.

Thanks

NukeMoose
12-02-2010, 05:25 PM
If I can't find 4x Progenitus before the next tournament, is it better to run 4x Iona or 4x Bogardian Hellkite?

If you can find any Progenitus I'd run a 3/1 or 2/2 Split. Primus is the next best creature with Terrastodon being able to fill a similar role and should be easily found.

Between Iona and Hellkite? Hellkite is at least castable especially if you are playing Seething Songs. Both are pretty bad with SA, so I'd try to find a green guy first.

codegeass
12-13-2010, 11:33 PM
Hi have some questions on how this deck works and plays. how consistent is the deck? What do you do if you have none of the cards combo in your hand? Do you just die or can you still combo off? What is the best intuition move? What are good and bad match up? What is the best first turn move? How well is the deck doing in current legacy format? Thanks

Asking questions is all good and fine, but people are unlikely to bother answering you if you could have found the answer yourself with just a minimum of reading. ~NC

rgripp
12-14-2010, 10:35 AM
If I can't find 4x Progenitus before the next tournament, is it better to run 4x Iona or 4x Bogardian Hellkite?

I would just play another deck. Iona is absolutely terrible on Sneak Attack. Locks nothing and hit for relatively little. If you must use one of the 2, use the Hellkite that can buy you time against Merfolk or other critter decks and don't really fuck up the clock if you draw multiples.

It's probably better to use the other Eldrazi's, though. They are easy to remove on Show and Tell, but most decks doesn't pack a shit ton of removal, and they at least blow up the opponent's board on Sneak Attack.

Tokobotenkai
12-14-2010, 11:21 AM
I posted this on salvation, so I thought maybe I posted it here for more discussion.

What do you guys think of Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal?

Petals help with mana fixing and gives U whereas Simian Spirit Guide can surprise your opponent when he daze your spells, looks better in a mono red dragon stompy shell too.

Any more comparisons of why to run one over another or even a split?

rgripp
12-14-2010, 12:02 PM
I used to play 4 of each. I thought it was too much and dropped the Spirit Guides to 2 Seething Song/2 Spell Snare.

The thing about the Spirit Guide is that a hand with an Ancient Tomb, a Guide, a Show and Tell, a monster and no other lands is pretty much unkeepable, where the same hand with the Petal is pretty much a Godhand.

Nekrataal
12-15-2010, 10:33 AM
SSG imho made sense only in the early versions which included Seething Songs. IT has its usage but Petal is better because it can provide U. Simple as that.

"What do you do if you have none of the cards combo in your hand? Do you just die or can you still combo off?" I won't answer the questions fully just what I think needs to be added. It is crucial to mulligan correctly here. If I have no Combo Piece in Hand which means neither S&T nor Sneak Attack nor any fatty this is usually a mulligan.

"What is the best intuition move?" There is no magic here like in Lands where you go for piles of different cards. It is just a tutor for a missing piece with the chance to shuffle cards lost to the GY back into the deck with Emrakul later.

"What are good and bad match up?" Aggro usually is good. However you have to be fast as well to not get overwhelmed. SB improves the matchup (Firespout). Combo usually is good as well at least in the version I play there are 10+ counters. Tempo is even because they can hold you off comboing for too long. Control depends on the deck. Multicolored control decks can be crippled by Blood Moon. Other control decks might leave you no chance to actually play S&T (because then they just drop something more devastating) and can defend against the key cards for quite a long time. I remember an epic game against Thopter Landstill where we had like 20+ turns of draw and go and some counter wars inbetween before I finally managed to stick a fatty to the board.

"What is the best first turn move?" Isn't that obvious or are you kidding? T1 Fatty with Counterbackup.

"How well is the deck doing in current legacy format?" It regularly shows up in every second Top8 lately. I would rate it not Tier 1 but upper Tier 2. See also latest Legacy stats in this forum.

practical joke
12-15-2010, 10:45 AM
You have to be honest.

Treshhold decks are your worst nightmare.
I've tested it pretty much and you can hardly do something about their massive ammount of counters.
Even if you play 10 counters, you are the one that has to resolve a combo as well. Tresshold simply drops a single goyf, confidant, mongoose or what not to win that game while hiding behind a wall of counters.

Aggro-match-ups are pretty good in overall since you can get the time you need to fix your combo and then go for a blowout when using emrakul.


Sneaky Show is about a Tier 2 deck, shows that it's capable in T8-ing once in a while, but not on a regular base. Might also have to do with the low ammount of appearances of the deck at tournaments.

Justin
12-15-2010, 10:49 AM
SSG imho made sense only in the early versions which included Seething Songs. IT has its usage but Petal is better because it can provide U. Simple as that.

"What do you do if you have none of the cards combo in your hand? Do you just die or can you still combo off?" I won't answer the questions fully just what I think needs to be added. It is crucial to mulligan correctly here. If I have no Combo Piece in Hand which means neither S&T nor Sneak Attack nor any fatty this is usually a mulligan.

I would say that having a combo piece is not enough on its own. Besides the obvious of having enough mana, you should also have a cantrip or (castable) Intuition. Taking a mulligan once or twice with this deck is not too terrible. You will often find what you need.

SMR0079
12-15-2010, 07:23 PM
If you are having difficulty against Tempo control be patient and play around Daze. You can generally build up a mana base while you craft a hand with Force and the combo.

Post SB you get REB and they get SPell Perice so it evens out except that you are the aggressor so you should have a higher chance of resloving your spells.

I'm trying to decide on the right Tutor package and maindeck disruption. Enlightened Tutor x2 finds Bloodmoon, Oring, Sneak, and a Robot. Personal Tutor finds ShownTell, Counters, and echoing truth. If I could find the Personal turor I would run it over intuition.

I was also considering cutting white for Thoughtseize but it seems like mit would decrease the combos consistency.

Cards like Seething Song and even Spirit Guide seem strictly inferior to Chrome moxor lotus petal in this deck. Has anyone tested between the latter two? I ran Chrome Mox with success last night, but that's alot of card disadvantage considering both Force and misdirection.

4 force, 2 Misdirection, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 ORing, 1 Blood Moon
2 ETuror, 2 Personal Tutor, 8 BS/Ponder
16 combo

At any rate, I for one think this deck is more then just a fluke and has actual staying power.

DeppChef
12-16-2010, 02:17 AM
If you search any Counter or Echoing Truth with Personal Tutor I´d call the judge :cool:

It´s only good for Show and Tell. Being a sorcery it´s not good enough to play a whole set of it, maybe a single one.

Nekrataal
12-16-2010, 07:22 AM
You have to be honest.

Treshhold decks are your worst nightmare.
I've tested it pretty much and you can hardly do something about their massive ammount of counters.
Even if you play 10 counters, you are the one that has to resolve a combo as well. Tresshold simply drops a single goyf, confidant, mongoose or what not to win that game while hiding behind a wall of counters.

Aggro-match-ups are pretty good in overall since you can get the time you need to fix your combo and then go for a blowout when using emrakul.


Sneaky Show is about a Tier 2 deck, shows that it's capable in T8-ing once in a while, but not on a regular base. Might also have to do with the low ammount of appearances of the deck at tournaments.

I honestly think this deck is upper Tier2. It was at place 15 last time I checked in DTB section http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-Deck-Selection/page2 . I saw quite a number of tourney results on different sites and got the impression it is even gaining numbers. Unfortunately there is no deckcheck anymore and you have to check several sites now. And not to forget this deck was played on 09. December 2010 at World Championships 2010 Chiba - Legacy Public Event and reached the 8. place.

Threshold ... massive amount of counters? Most of the counters are pretty conditional and many decks do not play more than 7/8 pre-board either it is FoW with Daze or Fow with SS sometimes Spell Pierce. So you play the same amount of counters (at least in my build I do, and post board you have more counters for there additional counters) and Spell Snare e.g. doesn't do anything. You can play around Tempo Counters (by loosing speed yourself of course). I see no issue here. But you are right in another way because the real issue I have with Tempo is Stifle + Wasteland cutting me from needed mana to play + play around + protect my spells what leads to the fact that Daze & Co cannot be played around soon enough. Especially the needed shuffle from Fetchies or the loss of Vulcanics/Tombs is hard to recover from. Maybe you meant that but still it is slightly different from what you posted.. Sorry to nitpick here ;-)


I would say that having a combo piece is not enough on its own. Besides the obvious of having enough mana, you should also have a cantrip or (castable) Intuition. Taking a mulligan once or twice with this deck is not too terrible. You will often find what you need. Yepp I shortened my answer to a minimum. This should have been obvious. Without any combo piece your hand must be loaded with options so this is for me the most clear choice apart from the obvious 7 or no-lander ;-) Of course it should hold 1-2 Cardquality spells best paired with a fetchland. Although this deck has so many potential to dig through the library and reshuffle it (and also GY back into the deck) it is not "set" that you find the combo pieces even by extensive digging. SOmetimes there are just games where you find just nothing relevant until you die. If I had to quantify it I would say every 6th game or so (I made a list against goldfish when I started to play the deck how often I wasn't able to accomplish anything by T5). Having played the deck for some time now I would lower that ratio due to better mulligan practice to every 8th game or so (and mabye also the more sloppy shuffling when whacking the goldfish).

practical joke
12-16-2010, 07:41 AM
the newer treshhold lists play approx 10-12 usefull counterspells (not counting spell snares, since it effectively does nothing at all)

you are correct that it's not only the counters but TT is well-equipped screwing your mana base the hard way.
You were right to correct me. That combined should make it a horrible match-up.

Tokobotenkai
12-16-2010, 08:11 AM
the newer treshhold lists play approx 10-12 usefull counterspells (not counting spell snares, since it effectively does nothing at all)

you are correct that it's not only the counters but TT is well-equipped screwing your mana base the hard way.
You were right to correct me. That combined should make it a horrible match-up.

You're right. If I'm not wrong, you're referring to Tempo Thresh right? Or are you referring to the recent Dark Thresh? (which is a terrible terrible MU).

Tempo MU (i.e. Merfolk and New Horizons) is the bad ones and here and there, Death and Taxes.

How many counters are you guys running? I'm currently running 3 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce and 4 FoW MB and 3 REB and 1 Spell Pierce in SB.

As for the splash, how is it going so far? Any comparisons between the splashes? (I'm running URb currently with B for Extirpates).

Nekrataal
12-16-2010, 12:50 PM
You are both right although I luckily had few matchups against Tempo decks. I lost hard against New Horizon because fetched Wastelands with KotR sucks hard but there were games where I could go for speedkill G1 and then with luck win G3. Howwever I agree that the average matchup stats should be below 40% especially for the black version (I know but did not have to battle) and the new TempoThrash with 10 counters main + Jace seems ugly. Merfolk isn't that hard especially after having Firespout available. They still can race you but usually they do not play all the tempo elements anymore so it is just swarming you what is the danger.

menace13
12-18-2010, 08:58 AM
Quick report on MTGO daily event.
I played the world's second worst configuration of this deck evar.
Online has a tendency to field a lot of aggro like Zoo,Affinity,Gobs,DnT with smaller showings of Merfolk,Storm,Dredge and Survival.


1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Strands
4 Tombs
1 Mire
4 tarns
4 Volcanic
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
1 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth

1 Primus
3 Progenitus
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Emrakul

1 Petal
2 SSG
2 Seething Song

Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout

I only had 1 Petal because a bud is using them, wasn't online and i was too high and lazy to ask any other friends.
And so i played SSGs, not that i agree with this, but it was 4am.
I do not like Intuition vs control and do not play it, although it is good and I like Seething Song VS aggro.

Rd1; Game 1. vs unknown on play i keep hand of Tomb,Petal,Daze,Ponder,Sneak,Show and big daddy sac your board card. Show resolves Game Over.

game2. Keep Progenitus x2, Sneakx2,Daze and Volcanic+Tarn. Opp reveals Zoo. I draw Emrakul,Kozilek,Volc,Misty while he played around the Daze and i lost waiting for a Song/Show or if i drew the lands first, turn 5 to Goyf,KotR, Nacatl and Chain.
I side out Dazex2, Mountain for 3 Spouts.

Game3. Keep Tomb, Spoutx2, Song,FoW, Kozilek and Sneak Attack. Yes, i know and i don't recommend it. I rip Ponder play Tomb go, he plays animals. I draw a Tarn like a champ -> Sneaky Kozilek cleans board and i rip another land for the Ponder to find Prog after untapping.
2-1 vs Zoo

Rd2; Game1. Vs Merf on draw. Opp Mulls to 6 and I mull too for Island,Tarn,Tomb,FoW,Ponder,Show Tell. He plays Island+Catcher go. I draw Preordain then play Ponder off island and put SSG into hand and Prog on top some irrel below.
Opponent plays island go. I draw Prog, Play Preordain put Emrak on top and some irrelevant on bottom, play Tarn and figured i would wait for him to tap out. Opp Plays Island-> Reejery, I rip Sneak, Play Tomb and Show&Tell a Sneak Attack into Play->Emrakul, Keep up FoW+Prog and SSg. 1-0

Game 2. Side out all Songs and Daze for Spouts and Pyroblast. Keep Volcanicx2,Tombx2,Island,Preordain,Spout,Emrakul. Opp leads with island+Catcher. I play Volcanic(hoping he Wastes me)->Preordain and get a Ponder in hand and Fow on top. He plays Needle Naming Sneak go.
I draw FoW drop Island Go. He drops Island into Silvergill revealing Coralhelm. I play Ponder and put FoW in hand and another Ponder on top. Opponent plays LoA swings, i am at 13 untap Draw Ponder play Tomb into Spout I FoW pitching FoW on his FoW and Spout resolves. I Ponder and find Pyroblast+Show&Tell win next turn after Showing Emrak and Blasting Reejery. 2-0 vs Merfolk

Rd3; game1 vs Affinity on Play. Keep Tomb,Volc,Tarn,Ponder,Brainstorm,Show&Tell+Kozilek. Lead with Volc for Ponder put Daze in hand off top. Opp Leads Seat,Thopter Springleaf Drum, i Daze the Drum because it's late and i don't want to hear a Drum he passes. I draw Sneak Play Volc pass. He does nothing i draw Misty play Tarn pass. Opp plays Ravager I Bstorm on stack FoW it pitching Show&Tell.
Shuffle away land+Tomb and i draw a Tomb right after Play Tomb into Sneak and pass. Affinity drops Champion,Frogmite and lands, I untap and Sneak kozilek he scoops with Champion and Frogmite left to block 12 at 20.

Game2. I side out some Dazes for Wipeaway and Needles. I keep FoW,Ponder,Bstorm,Preordain,Song,Emrakul,Tomb. Opp leads with Furnace,Opal,Thopter,Ravager gets FoWd with Ponder pitched(besides not mulling i should have pitched Bstorm). I play Tomb go. He plays out Enforcer,Springleaf,Nexus,Opal not in that order. I find Mire for Volcanic Bstorm into nothing. Next turn Preordain into nothing lose. 1-1

Game3. Keep Mire,Ponder,Brainstorm,FoW,Progenitus,Emrakul. I Play Mire go, Opp Furnace,Opal,Needle gets FoWd pitching Prog after i Bstorm into Island and Ponder. Play Ponder into another Ponder into Tomb for Show&Tell->Emrakul. 2-1 vs Affinity.

Rd4 Game1 ANT with 12 cantrips. I mull no lander, mull Tomb no protection hand. Keep 4 bad cards and FoW that i cant pitch for. Lose to turn 2 Ad Naus after he plays Brainstorm go. 0-1

Game2 Mull no lander, Mull useless hand into irrel shit play Show->Emrakul turn 4. Opp Ad Nauses into nothing but Duress,Rituals, Cantrips and Infernal needing a Petal or Led he thinks for like 5 minutes until i ask and tell him he needs a Led or Petal off his Cantrip or lose. I win 1-1

Game3 And now for the offical Punt of the evening; I Blast his Bstorm buying me turns to play Sneak Attack and sculpt Dazex3 and FoWx2 thru Cantrips. I think no way does he have it since if i untap i can hopefully mise into Cantrip for Emrakul. So he plays Ritual and I for no reason other than holding all these dazes and Fows decided to FoW the Ritual...GG. He plays Cabalx2 into Ad Naus i FoW again.
Last 2 cards are IT+LED and i deserve it. 1-2 ANT

Sorry if this is written with terrible neglect of proper puncuation ,Fuk u2 it's almost 8am and i need sleep.

SMR0079
12-20-2010, 01:30 AM
I cut the white and main deck answers for more search and counters, putting my answers in the sideboard. It's very consistent. If you wan tPrimus main deck cut -1 Preordain, -1 Progentius, -1 Misdirection

//ShowNSneak V2.0


4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus

4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 2 Bloodmoon
SB: 3 Relic
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

TheShaun
12-20-2010, 10:44 PM
First I'll say that I haven't played this yet, just decided a couple weeks ago that I wanted to give it a go and have been building the pieces slowly. A friend suggested (and actually gave me them for free) using Gamble. I haven't seen it mentioned at all in this thread, and was just curious if anybody else had tried it out, and if so, what were the positives and negatives? I can't wait to get this together though, seems like lots of fun.

JustPAT4
12-21-2010, 05:55 PM
First I'll say that I haven't played this yet, just decided a couple weeks ago that I wanted to give it a go and have been building the pieces slowly. A friend suggested (and actually gave me them for free) using Gamble. I haven't seen it mentioned at all in this thread, and was just curious if anybody else had tried it out, and if so, what were the positives and negatives? I can't wait to get this together though, seems like lots of fun.

This deck can be lots o' fun to play... mostly though it's just really easy to play. You can be high as a kite or devastatingly hungover and still manage to pay 2U and put a 15/15 Flying Spaghetti Monster into play. The deck pretty much plays itself. :laugh:

I've had quite a bit of experience using Gamble over the years. It's a very cute card, but I don't think it makes the competitive legacy cut, at least not with this deck. The reason is simple, the card's drawback leads to inconsistency. Even in the best case scenario where you're casting it with a full hand on turn 1, you're still likely to be holding at least 2 necessary spells before the discard. That means a 2 out of 6 or 2 out of 7 shot, or about a 30% failure rate. As the game goes on and your hand size decreases, you're lucky if you have 50% success odds. What's worse is that a failed Gamble can leave you without a business spell for turns. And even if the discard effect doesn't hit one of the combo pieces, it hits the counter backup, the necessary mana, or the cantrips that were going to get you to the mana. In my opinion, it's flat-out too inconsistent to reliably compete with the overall legacy field. I'd suggest using that same mana on cantrips such as Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain.

For search effects, a lot of players like the versatility of Intuition, especially toward the mid to late game. Others use cards like Enlightened Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, or Personal Tutor.

Increasingly, though, it seems that many U/R lists run no search elements at all, opting instead for an increased number of cantrips. I'd love to read some more feedback on this forum about reasons not to run Intuition or Personal Tutor. I know there are people who are ready to make a good case against Intuition. It's definitely a topic worth discussing.

menace13
12-21-2010, 08:50 PM
Went 4-0 Today 30 man daily. Larger field then usual 16- low 20's and i knew i had to adjust since it will not be 3 rounds of aggro. Changed the deck slightly and sideboard was also different. Played Intuition help to fetch 3balls vs Storm. Still don't have Petals back and will get them next time!

Faced TES,Burn,Zoo and Tes. Loved having Had 20 minutes of actual game play time all event. Woot for Annhiliator, Flying and Pro Spells.

[Artifact]
1 Lotus Petal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Lotus]+[Petal])
[Creature]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Emrakul,]+[the]+[Aeons]+[Torn])
4 Progenitus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Progenitus])
2 Simian Spirit Guide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Simian]+[Spirit]+[Guide])
[Land]
4 Ancient Tomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Ancient]+[Tomb])
2 Flooded Strand (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Flooded]+[Strand])
3 Island (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Island])
2 Misty Rainforest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Misty]+[Rainforest])
1 Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Mountain])
4 Scalding Tarn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Scalding]+[Tarn])
4 Volcanic Island (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Volcanic]+[Island])
[Enchantment]
4 Sneak Attack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Sneak]+[Attack])
[Instant]
4 Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Brainstorm])
4 Daze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Daze])
1 Echoing Truth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Echoing]+[Truth])
4 Force of Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Force]+[of]+[Will])
2 Intuition (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Intuition])
1 Seething Song (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Seething]+[Song])
[Sorcery]
4 Ponder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Ponder])
1 Preordain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Preordain])
4 Show and Tell (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Show]+[and]+[Tell])
60 cards
Sideboard
2 Blood Moon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Blood]+[Moon])
3 Firespout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Firespout])
3 Pyroblast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Pyroblast])
3 Tormod's Crypt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Tormod's]+[Crypt])
3 Trinisphere (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Trinisphere])
1 Wipe Away (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[Wipe]+[Away])

The Big Ragu
12-21-2010, 09:04 PM
This is a fine deck, but I wish there was a better name for it. Even just calling it 'Sneak Attack' somehow feels lacking.

Scordata
12-21-2010, 11:51 PM
How about:
Spaghetti with a side of Progenitals?

JustPAT4
12-23-2010, 12:02 AM
I've always called it "Sneak-A-Tell"

Koby
12-23-2010, 12:47 AM
We're all stars now, at the Sneak Show.

Tokobotenkai
12-26-2010, 02:38 AM
Anyone trying out a 3rd color splash? Or is going UR better? I used to run a singleton Underground Sea for Extirpate for the VV Survival issue, but now that the MU is gone, what other options do we have?

My current list:
// 18 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island

// 8 Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Progenitus

// 34 Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away

// Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
3 Extirpate
3 Firespout
1 Pyroblast
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

I'm thinking of dropping extirpates for maybe a tormod's crypt and a combination of wipe away/spell pierce. Or even Vendilion Clique.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: Alternatively, the black splash could lead to LDV and Thoughtseize, but I'm worried about destabilizing the mana base against the tempo MU.

Nekrataal
12-28-2010, 03:52 PM
I did post a list with black splash a few pages up the thread for exactly the same reason. With Survival leaving the format this is not required anymore and I am content with UR. Thoughtseize? Why? You play 9 Counterspells and can ramp it to more via SB.

Tokobotenkai
12-28-2010, 05:59 PM
I did post a list with black splash a few pages up the thread for exactly the same reason. With Survival leaving the format this is not required anymore and I am content with UR. Thoughtseize? Why? You play 9 Counterspells and can ramp it to more via SB.

Just brainstorming for ideas.

In that case, what do you swap in for Extirpate?

I'm thinking of Trinisphere (combo MU) or Defense Grid (tempo MUs?).

menace13
01-06-2011, 07:37 AM
[Artifact]
4 Lotus Petal
[Creature]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
[Land]
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
[Enchantment]
4 Sneak Attack
[Instant]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
[Sorcery]
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
60 cards
Sideboard

3 Blood Moon

3 Firespout

3 Pyroblast

3 Tormod's Crypt

3 Trinisphere

Went 4-0 Legacy Daily beat RDW,UR Landstill, Merfolk, and ub OOze combo, fun times. SnT turn 1 on play twice in 4 matches,,weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Tokobotenkai
01-06-2011, 07:42 AM
@menace13:

Some questions:

Given your MUs, I don't think you board 3sphere at all? And how was the MU against Ooze (I assume is Ooze reanimator)?

How's having 8 counters working for you? I find that they aren't enough.

How do you like your 20 land mana base vs the usual 18?

Julian23
01-06-2011, 07:48 AM
Just to let you guys know, this deck put 2 guys into the Semi-Finals of German Magic 2 (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=5785).
190 players attending.

menace13
01-06-2011, 07:57 AM
@menace13:

Some questions:

Given your MUs, I don't think you board 3sphere at all? And how was the MU against Ooze (I assume is Ooze reanimator)?

How's having 8 counters working for you? I find that they aren't enough.

How do you like your 20 land mana base vs the usual 18?

I didn't board the 3balls at all today(mainly there for Storm and *****/Tempo decks), nor did i board the Spouts, despite playing Merf(i went with Pyroblasts and Blood Moonsx2).

The ub Ooze was Reanimator(Duress,Pierce,LDV,Buried Alive,Reanimate,Rituals,Petals,Chrome Mox), but i dont know if he had Daze or FoW as i never seen one in 2 games. It was pretty easy to resolve SnT game 1 and I mulled to 5 game 2, then drew into 4 lands and a Brainstorm in that sequence and somehow managed to find 2 Tormod's Crypt to buy infi time for Sneak->Emrak.

8 counters, They aren't enough, and even worse to Daze or FoW for value against blue decks. Although vital against aggro to buy time while digging. I play 3 Pyroblasts(3 3balls) in sb for blue, I do miss Pierce vs combo.

I like the higher land count a lot, i tend to open too many 1 Ancient Tomb land hands. Even with 20 I somehow still mulled twice tonight a no land opening and 1 Tomb land hand... : /.
I always board out basic mountian and island against Zoo,Combo-non wasteland decks-

DeppChef
01-07-2011, 03:13 PM
I played the deck at the German Magic 2 last week. 190 players, 3 of them piloting SneakShow, 2 of them reaching top8, one of them -me- (virtually ;-) ) winning. My decklist was like

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Seething Song
3 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

Board

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroclasm (I simply couldn´t find Firespout)
2 Spell Pierce


Swiss I played 6-1-1 against 2 Stax, 2 Rock, 2 CounterTop, 1 ANT, 1 Survival. The loss was against Rock who preboard simply crashed every card I ever wanted to play or use. Postboard I couldn´t find Leyline and was crashed again. Last round was ID against ANT but we played it 2-0 thanx to Leyline.

Top8 was 2-1 against Canadian and 2-0 against Survival. Final should have been against Survival again which I normally win, with all respect for the opponent. Due to the flu and facing a long lasting homedrive we splitted and droped which meant 30 duals for both of us.

Maindeck I wouldn´t change to much, maybe -1 Seething Song and +1 Daze. As you can see I played 8 Eldrazis cause Annihilator simply rocks. Progenitus does not convince me at all especially when its only sneaked onto the battlefield. Even with Show and Tell you are not safe from being raced. MVP was Intuition which gets you anything you need. It should be played more often, even in Legacy generally.

The deck is selfexplaining and makes whole lot of fun. More than once I showed and telled an Eldrazi within the first two rounds. On the other hand its good to know that you dont have to. Cleaning the board after a couple of turns means always gg.

menace13
01-07-2011, 11:50 PM
I played the deck at the German Magic 2 last week. 190 players, 3 of them piloting SneakShow, 2 of them reaching top8, one of them -me- (virtually ;-) ) winning. My decklist was like

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Seething Song
3 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

Board

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroclasm (I simply couldn´t find Firespout)
2 Spell Pierce


Swiss I played 6-1-1 against 2 Stax, 2 Rock, 2 CounterTop, 1 ANT, 1 Survival. The loss was against Rock who preboard simply crashed every card I ever wanted to play or use. Postboard I couldn´t find Leyline and was crashed again. Last round was ID against ANT but we played it 2-0 thanx to Leyline.

Top8 was 2-1 against Canadian and 2-0 against Survival. Final should have been against Survival again which I normally win, with all respect for the opponent. Due to the flu and facing a long lasting homedrive we splitted and droped which meant 30 duals for both of us.

Maindeck I wouldn´t change to much, maybe -1 Seething Song and +1 Daze. As you can see I played 8 Eldrazis cause Annihilator simply rocks. Progenitus does not convince me at all especially when its only sneaked onto the battlefield. Even with Show and Tell you are not safe from being raced. MVP was Intuition which gets you anything you need. It should be played more often, even in Legacy generally.

The deck is selfexplaining and makes whole lot of fun. More than once I showed and telled an Eldrazi within the first two rounds. On the other hand its good to know that you dont have to. Cleaning the board after a couple of turns means always gg.

Nice prize!

A report would be sweet.

The list looks fast, I find Sneak Attack too slow w/o at least 2 Seethings. I like the 8 Annihilators and 4 Intuitions seem like it could crush most aggro decks without disruption, will try this out.
How was the lack of any bounce spells at all. Half of your pairings in Stax and and Cbalance did not have Bridges or Humility ?

That nice guy
01-08-2011, 04:55 PM
For search effects, a lot of players like the versatility of Intuition, especially toward the mid to late game. Others use cards like ..., Lim-Dul's Vault, or Personal Tutor.

Increasingly, though, it seems that many U/R lists run no search elements at all, opting instead for an increased number of cantrips. I'd love to read some more feedback on this forum about reasons not to run Intuition or Personal Tutor. I know there are people who are ready to make a good case against Intuition. It's definitely a topic worth discussing.

I am running a list with 10 pieces of search being; 4 Bstorm, 4 Ponder, and 2 Preordain. I do this for first turn consistency. The thing I have been wondering lately is weather or not the preordains should be Intuition or even gifts?????

Gifts would be needed card advantage against control decks, and with tomb I do not see it being hard to play.

So yea, 2 more cantrips or Intuition?

Tokobotenkai
01-08-2011, 11:14 PM
I am running a list with 10 pieces of search being; 4 Bstorm, 4 Ponder, and 2 Preordain. I do this for first turn consistency. The thing I have been wondering lately is weather or not the preordains should be Intuition or even gifts?????

Gifts would be needed card advantage against control decks, and with tomb I do not see it being hard to play.

So yea, 2 more cantrips or Intuition?

I'm running 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 2 SDT and 2 Intuition currently.

Though I'm considering to cut some stuff (maybe 2 cantrips) for more counters.

@DeppChef:
What MUs did you face? My issue with the other Eldrazis was that they kept eating spot removals (StP/PtE).

That nice guy
01-09-2011, 01:34 AM
I'm running 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 2 SDT and 2 Intuition currently.

Though I'm considering to cut some stuff (maybe 2 cantrips) for more counters.

@DeppChef:
What MUs did you face? My issue with the other Eldrazis was that they kept eating spot removals (StP/PtE).


So you're saying if you did not have tops you's rather have those intuitions over preordains?

Tokobotenkai
01-09-2011, 01:48 AM
So you're saying if you did not have tops you's rather have those intuitions over preordains?

I ran 2 preordain over 2 SDT initially in addition to intuition.

However, I had some rough time with my mana base 18 lands with 4 tombs, tops helped with one tomb land draws.

dave8
01-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Hello everyone.
I played this deck at the local legacy tournament last sunday. 30 players - finishing 2nd (won 54 SOM boosters:smile:).
My decklist:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard

3 REB
3 Tormod´s Crypt
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
3 Echoing Truth

Short report:

1 round - Lands 2-0
This matchup is nearly a BYE. I play Emrakul or Progenitus means GG.

3 pts

2 round - Reanimator 2-0
This is rather easy matchup too. Game 1 i play show and tell he puts Iona i put emrakul gg. Game 2 he uses hymn but I recover and killed him few turns later.

6 pts

3 round - Counterballance 1-1
Game 1 - I win easily. Game 2 he had more counters than I did. Game 3 the time was called.

7 pts

4 round - Merfolk 1-2
Very very bad matchup. I managed to win Game 1 but lost the other two.

7 pts

5 round - Painter combo 2-1
Easy matchup. Game 1 I played SA and won. G2 he uses grindstone and I scooped (later I realized that I had emrakul and progenitus so he couldn't have won) nevertheless G3 I won.

10 pts

TOP 8 - Counterballance 2-1
It was really really tight matchup. G1 I won rather easily. G2 he had too many vendillions. G3 I managed to put progenitus from show and tell and he couldn't find any answer to that.

TOP 4 - UWB Landstill 2-0
I was really surprised how easy it was. G1 I played SA with primus (to destroy karakas) few more turns Emrakul :) G2 - SA echoing moat and killed him with emrakul and progenitus.

Final - Merfolk 1-2
Again the worst matchup. I managed to steal the game but can't win it nevertheless.

Do you have any suggestions how to beat merfolk or how to sideboard?
In the tourney I did :
-3 Intuition (too slow for merfolk imo) -2 ponder -1 lotus petal; + 3 REB +3 Firespout.
Now I think that I should have done:
-3 Intuition -3 Primus (useless against merfolk) + 3 REB +3 Firespout.
What do you think of that??

Azathoth
01-11-2011, 01:11 PM
I use Volcanic fallout instead of Firespout... The surprise is awesome agains melforks and another control decks ( with Peacekeeper, meddling mage... ) and permit you to kill mutavaults and mishra's; It is rare that the opponent controls more than a "Lord of Atlantis or similar" giving bonus to the others melforks ( In this case maybe you have the combo or you can quit one with REB or prevent with a counterspell )

menace13
01-11-2011, 02:42 PM
.

Do you have any suggestions how to beat merfolk or how to sideboard?
In the tourney I did :
-3 Intuition (too slow for merfolk imo) -2 ponder -1 lotus petal; + 3 REB +3 Firespout.
Now I think that I should have done:
-3 Intuition -3 Primus (useless against merfolk) + 3 REB +3 Firespout.
What do you think of that??
Merfolk is a rough MU. Sbing depends on how the player is playing you. For example if he isnt playing his dudes out for fear of Firespout and is rolling you with Mutavault+ any Merfolk, then Blood Moon might be better to give them 8 mountains. Try to get a fast SnT if they tap out since you can get a mana or 2 to pay for Daze+Catcher, hopefully FoW is enough on thier FoW.

As for what to sideout; Ponder, Primus and Intuition seem correct in your list. I also frequently sideout a single Sneak Attack if they are playing 2 or more Needles.

Also knowing what type of hands the player keeps against you helps. My last Dailiy Event I had Merfolk player in a game 3 look at his hand for like 5 seconds longer than he did in the other 2 games and something told me he had no FoW but kept a good hand of Pierce,Daze,Catcher,Vial. I played a first turn SnT before he had a chance to play a land and won.

Has anyone tried Xantid Swarm or Chants/Silence as an option? I am not really worried about the mana Base at all since it will likely be something like x1 Tundra/Tropical.

dave8
01-11-2011, 03:38 PM
Merfolk is a rough MU. Sbing depends on how the player is playing you. For example if he isnt playing his dudes out for fear of Firespout and is rolling you with Mutavault+ any Merfolk, then Blood Moon might be better to give them 8 mountains. Try to get a fast SnT if they tap out since you can get a mana or 2 to pay for Daze+Catcher, hopefully FoW is enough on thier FoW.

As for what to sideout; Ponder, Primus and Intuition seem correct in your list. I also frequently sideout a single Sneak Attack if they are playing 2 or more Needles.

Also knowing what type of hands the player keeps against you helps. My last Dailiy Event I had Merfolk player in a game 3 look at his hand for like 5 seconds longer than he did in the other 2 games and something told me he had no FoW but kept a good hand of Pierce,Daze,Catcher,Vial. I played a first turn SnT before he had a chance to play a land and won.

Has anyone tried Xantid Swarm or Chants/Silence as an option? I am not really worried about the mana Base at all since it will likely be something like x1 Tundra/Tropical.

Instead of splashing another colour I would consider Overmaster. It does the same thing as Chant/Silence in this deck.
Thanks for your thoughts about Merfolk MU.

Nekrataal
01-11-2011, 04:48 PM
Overmaster? Against Merfolk this is just worse than another REB which does the same (draw a counter) but has much more flexible usage. I would play 2 creatures less in general and fill up with 2 counters than you are set also for the Merfolk matchup because you can easily board ReBs without harming the initial structure of the deck too much. Firespout should be enough for them. Mind the Tempo Version of Merfolk using Stifle (rarely played these days anymore) is much more difficult like any another Tempo Deck. Eventually I played Spinal Villain which was kind of fun to see the Merfolks play jaw drop when reading the card. Instead of worsening our already fragile mana base (see Tempo Matchup) I would rather consider playing more counters. Against Merfolk this does not help much G1 but G2 it opens sideboard slots. Against other matchups this comes in more handy. Since we often tap out to play stuff T2 or 3 I would recommend Daze although this is not a Tempodeck.

Tokobotenkai
01-12-2011, 05:26 PM
Speaking of tempo and maybe control MUs, what do you think of a singleton Tropical Island to cast Xantid Swarm?

The minor splash is not enough to destabilize the manabase I think (just like 1 Underground Sea just for Extirpate pre-SOTF banning).

I could see 3 of them in the SB. Like reanimator, using swarm to chant your opponent turn after turn to combo off seems good.

GexxX
01-13-2011, 06:03 AM
I think you might as well play a Trop instead of the USea and run Xantids in the board against Merfolk.
It's quite strong against them. If they cant counter it you should be able to win. I've allways liked Xantid in my Storm lists to fight Merfolk...
Green can also enable other nice SideboardCards like Krosan Grip.

Just a thought for those thinking about a third color. =)

Tokobotenkai
01-13-2011, 12:45 PM
I think you might as well play a Trop instead of the USea and run Xantids in the board against Merfolk.
It's quite strong against them. If they cant counter it you should be able to win. I've allways liked Xantid in my Storm lists to fight Merfolk...
Green can also enable other nice SideboardCards like Krosan Grip.

Just a thought for those thinking about a third color. =)

I agree.

What do you think would make the cut?

My current list:

// 18 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain

// 8 Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Progenitus

// 34 Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away

// Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

I'm thinking -1 Mountain +1 Trop -3 Trinisphere (my meta has very few storm) +3 Xantid Swarm

What do you guys think?

Nekrataal
01-14-2011, 04:28 AM
There is no simple answer to this. Without Trinisphere you are severly worsening your Combo Matchup which is OK if there is not a lot of fast Combo in your Metagame. With Swarm you are in principle improving the control matchup NOT the Merfolk matchup so much because Merfolk plays just 7-8 counters (4 FoW, 4 Daze) at maximum, where 4 of them are no hard counters. Also Spell Pierce has fallen from grace lately. You play at minimum as much counters as them especially after sideboarding REB! The problem with Merfolk is if you play not around Daze or have no counter protection yourself while the Merfolk player has everything (Pressure + early counters).Anyway I do think that the Merfolk matchup is slightly positiv after boarding REBS and Firespout.

Tokobotenkai
01-14-2011, 12:19 PM
There is no simple answer to this. Without Trinisphere you are severly worsening your Combo Matchup which is OK if there is not a lot of fast Combo in your Metagame. With Swarm you are in principle improving the control matchup NOT the Merfolk matchup so much because Merfolk plays just 7-8 counters (4 FoW, 4 Daze) at maximum, where 4 of them are no hard counters. Also Spell Pierce has fallen from grace lately. You play at minimum as much counters as them especially after sideboarding REB! The problem with Merfolk is if you play not around Daze or have no counter protection yourself while the Merfolk player has everything (Pressure + early counters).Anyway I do think that the Merfolk matchup is slightly positiv after boarding REBS and Firespout.

My meta has only 3 Belcher and 1 TES (which is a very small portion of the meta).

I was more on the lines of trying to improve the tempo MU like New Horizons and Dark Thresh. Merfolk are usually fine.

Control MUs or decks with tons of counters are also a problem which I believe Swarm will help.

What number of counters do you recommend? And what should I cut for them?

menace13
01-16-2011, 12:36 PM
3-1 Legacy Daily on MtgO today, same list as last except I moved the 2 bounce spells to the sb removing 3rd Blood Monn and 3rd Firespout to add 2 Seething Songs to main. Beat CFB-Cbalance, Bant Aggro w Cbalancex2 and lost to RB Goblins. Faced a lot of Cbalance and the meta is starting to shift towards that and Goblins with some Storm and Dredge.

@Toko- Your list looks fine, Tops, Pierce -10 counters main-and Rebs in board is all solid. I play 8 main, Eight counters is sometimes too few and Pierce is really good for many reasons in almost every match up, but MtgO has a lot of aggro so I usually get free wins. How has Primus been in your meta, what decks have you found him to be useful or needed for? I sometimes think Progenitus is not good enough and am considering replacing him with Kozilek.

JimmyC27
01-16-2011, 02:43 PM
I agree.

What do you think would make the cut?

My current list:

// 18 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain

// 8 Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Progenitus

// 34 Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away

// Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

I'm thinking -1 Mountain +1 Trop -3 Trinisphere (my meta has very few storm) +3 Xantid Swarm

What do you guys think?


-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Tropical Island

The basic mountain helps play around Wasteland... that's been oddly important for my experience with this deck.

menace13
01-17-2011, 12:49 AM
Just went played another Daily on MtgO and went 4-0 with Same list from the 3-1 daily this morning. Played against CFB Cbalance, RB Goblins, Affinity and ANT. Weeeee for like maybe...probably closer to hour and a half, 2 hours of total play time in both events.

This puts me at 4-0 against CBalance variants on the day.

Tokobotenkai
01-17-2011, 07:11 AM
@Toko- Your list looks fine, Tops, Pierce -10 counters main-and Rebs in board is all solid. I play 8 main, Eight counters is sometimes too few and Pierce is really good for many reasons in almost every match up, but MtgO has a lot of aggro so I usually get free wins. How has Primus been in your meta, what decks have you found him to be useful or needed for? I sometimes think Progenitus is not good enough and am considering replacing him with Kozilek.

I'm avoiding kozilek due to the tons of StP/PtE in my meta. Woodfall usually blows up Karakas, meekstone/ensnaring bridge and even lands, but humility is still an issue.

Prog is there due to his protection but I agree, he can be sorely lacking at times.

I'll think about testing kozilek due to increase in aggro and aggro control decks.

Justin
01-19-2011, 01:44 AM
Well, this new card seems worth a look:

Blightsteel Colossus 12
Artifact Creature - Golem
Trample, infect
Blightsteel Colossus is indestructible.
If Blightsteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Blightsteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
Illus. Chris Rahn #99/155 11/11

It will kill immediately after a Sneak Attack unless the opponent can exile it or otherwise keep it from attacking.

NukeMoose
01-19-2011, 02:31 AM
Justin you know I've been trying to kick sneak out of sneak attack for a while now but the first thought I had after seeing BC spoiled was how this might give Sneak just what it needs to get it out of tier 2-3. Since it's a one hit kill, Sneaking BC is better than Showing it into play since you win a turn faster. The only problem is that if they leave a creature back then it's worse than a Sneaked Progenitus as giving only 1-9 poisen counters is a near-100% pointless play.

I'm very curious about testing this guy.

Barook
01-19-2011, 03:08 AM
There is also a new Trinket Mage variant that fetches an artifact for a CC of 6 or above. Sounds like a good tutor for Blightsteel Colossus.

Tokobotenkai
01-19-2011, 07:29 AM
Colossus definitely looks interesting however, besides removal, the other issue is that it has infect meaning that even if it's blocked, the opponent's life total is unchanged, meaning we need to swing twice with emmy and/or prog.

dave8
01-19-2011, 07:57 AM
Colossus definitely looks interesting however, besides removal, the other issue is that it has infect meaning that even if it's blocked, the opponent's life total is unchanged, meaning we need to swing twice with emmy and/or prog.

Couldn't agree more, in addition to it's StP/PtE vulnerability colossus is affected by a cards such as maze of ith or a single toughness 2+ blocker.
In my opinion Prog is 1000 times better.

Tokobotenkai
01-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Couldn't agree more, in addition to it's StP/PtE vulnerability colossus is affected by a cards such as maze of ith or a single toughness 2+ blocker.
In my opinion Prog is 1000 times better.

I think the more appropriate comparison would be Kozilek vs Colossus. Though what do you guys think of a 3 way comparison between Kozilek (annihilator and indestrucible) vs Colossus (infect and trample) vs Progenitus (Evasion)?

menace13
01-19-2011, 09:18 AM
I think the more appropriate comparison would be Kozilek vs Colossus. Though what do you guys think of a 3 way comparison between Kozilek (annihilator and indestrucible) vs Colossus (infect and trample) vs Progenitus (Evasion)?

I Need Emrakul 5-8.:mad:

I think Blightsteel is playable in certain match ups like combo or mirror where there will not be a blocker/bounce/removal or not much in the way of anything else.

Progenitus in the same MUs is sorely lacking compared to Eldrazi sac effects of clearing lands and maybe a mox, also the 15 from Emrakul is relevant to Ad Naus life totals where sometimes 10/12 is just not enough. Distinction of The only creature in the deck that is immune to O-Ring and Karakas-and EVERYTHING- goes to The Soul of the World.

I have tried 1 Kozilek before, reason being a 12/12 is pretty much indestructible and the extra 2 damage may make a difference-small chance- over Ulamog's 10/10.

None of the these aside Progenitus dodges the most common removal Stp/PtE and/or Bounce.

dave8
01-19-2011, 09:28 AM
I think the more appropriate comparison would be Kozilek vs Colossus. Though what do you guys think of a 3 way comparison between Kozilek (annihilator and indestrucible) vs Colossus (infect and trample) vs Progenitus (Evasion)?

As far as I am concerned Progenitus is the best solution of those 3 because he is just awsome with show and tell, and he is also quite solid with SA as he does 10 damage which cannot be avoided by your opponent. To compare Ulamog (Kozilek is not indestructible) and Colossus I think that it is a meta call. As I said before Colossus is vulnerable to maze of ith and blockers while Ulamog/Kozilek is not. On the other hand Colossus usually attacks once.

Tokobotenkai
01-19-2011, 09:53 AM
I Need Emrakul 5-8.:mad:

I think Blightsteel is playable in certain match ups like combo or mirror where there will not be a blocker/bounce/removal or not much in the way of anything else.

Progenitus in the same MUs is sorely lacking compared to Eldrazi sac effects of clearing lands and maybe a mox, also the 15 from Emrakul is relevant to Ad Naus life totals where sometimes 10/12 is just not enough. Distinction of The only creature in the deck that is immune to O-Ring and Karakas-and EVERYTHING- goes to The Soul of the World.

I have tried 1 Kozilek before, reason being a 12/12 is pretty much indestructible and the extra 2 damage may make a difference-small chance- over Ulamog's 10/10.

None of the these aside Progenitus dodges the most common removal Stp/PtE and/or Bounce.

That's my issue with Kozilek/Ulamog is that they keep getting hit by StP/PtE/Bounce and even stuff that hits emrakul i.e. Karakas.

I'm running 2 prog as of current (I don't really like to see prog all the time), woodfall is for removal (which I too don't want to see all the time).

What do you guys think about a 3/1 or 2/2 Split of Prog + Koz/Ula?

Just curious, no one tried form of the dragon too right (from the old DD/S&T decks)?

dave8
01-19-2011, 11:08 AM
That's my issue with Kozilek/Ulamog is that they keep getting hit by StP/PtE/Bounce and even stuff that hits emrakul i.e. Karakas.

I'm running 2 prog as of current (I don't really like to see prog all the time), woodfall is for removal (which I too don't want to see all the time).

What do you guys think about a 3/1 or 2/2 Split of Prog + Koz/Ula?

Just curious, no one tried form of the dragon too right (from the old DD/S&T decks)?

Kozilek/Ulamog/Emrakul are non Karakasable while you have SA in play :)

I personally don't like 2/2 splits in this deck because it has very bad synergy with Intuition.

Justin
01-19-2011, 11:15 AM
It's vulnerbility to spot removal may be the downfall of the Colossus, but consider that it can give this deck a turn one kill. An opening hand that includes Anicent Tomb/City of Traitors, Lotus Petal/SSG, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, and Colossus equals good game unless your opponent has an answer. One the play, it wins you the game, unless your oppoent has Force of Will. It can also work with a normal land and two Petals. A "god" hand would be something like the following: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, Colossus, Force of Will, any Blue card. The problem is that you won't to get that draw very often.

It might be fun to build and test an ultra-aggressive version of S&T that tries to maximize the chances of getting a turn one Colossus. Even a turn one Show and Tell with this guy is pretty good, if you have Force or Daze backup to keep him alive. An ultra-aggressive deck would include City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal and Simian Spirit Guide, and a full set of Seething Song. You could possibly include the new Treasure Mage to fetch Colossus. My guess is that this would not be better than the current version of S&T because you would give up too much consistancy and could not build the ultra-aggresive deck without cutting some key cards such as cantrips and tutors.

Treasure Mage, by the way, would be awesome in this deck if only the Eldrazi were artifact creatuers.

The vulnerability of Colossus may prove to risky to maindeck over Progenitus. However, Colossus might be a good sideboard option against combo and other decks that lack answers to it, because he speeds up your kill a full turn.

Nekrataal
01-20-2011, 01:22 PM
The vulnerability of Colossus may prove to risky to maindeck over Progenitus. However, Colossus might be a good sideboard option against combo and other decks that lack answers to it, because he speeds up your kill a full turn.

If you can "sneak in" Colossus it does not speed up your kill necessarily because an opponent usually cannot recover from a attack from Emrakul especially combo players either. So yes to be precise the kill might be earlier but the win is there nevertheless although the actual kill comes a turn later.

Colossus imho is far to conditional to be useful. I'd rather pack other tools into my sideboard.

menace13
01-20-2011, 02:04 PM
If you can "sneak in" Colossus it does not speed up your kill necessarily because an opponent usually cannot recover from a attack from Emrakul especially combo players either. So yes to be precise the kill might be earlier but the win is there nevertheless although the actual kill comes a turn later.

Colossus imho is far to conditional to be useful. I'd rather pack other tools into my sideboard.

I have had 3 different Storm players take 15+ sac their board, only to untap with around 7 cards and storm off in my face with Cantrips,Rits,LEDs,Petals and chained Tutors. The most dangerous are the Chant/Silence lists when they Igg Loop at any amount of life. Blightsteel kills them on the spot, no chance to Untap.

Justin
01-20-2011, 04:11 PM
If you can "sneak in" Colossus it does not speed up your kill necessarily because an opponent usually cannot recover from a attack from Emrakul especially combo players either. So yes to be precise the kill might be earlier but the win is there nevertheless although the actual kill comes a turn later.

Colossus imho is far to conditional to be useful. I'd rather pack other tools into my sideboard.

You aren't boarding out your Emrakuls for it. You are borading out your Progenitus, Woodfall Primus, etc. Colossus clearly kills faster than they do.

Nekrataal
01-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Sure but anyhow I see no reason to have the dude SB because I see no problems with fast combo (especially in a to-be-expected-post-Survival-Meta full of CBT). We can play enough counterspells to fend them off a couple of turns. Storming off protected from a cleared board seems more like lucky try. However it is possible but I refuse to take this as the usual matchup outcome. Maybe my list is playing more counterspells than others (there is still fluctuation regarding different players) ...

zerzab11
01-22-2011, 07:22 PM
Hey Guys,

I played for awhile now with the version of DeppChef, posted two sites ago, and really had problems with sideboarding. I never wanted to put out any cards. For example I boarded +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +3 Bloodmoon and +2 Red Elemental Blast vs Doomsday (each of these cards is good vs Doomsday I think), but didn't want to put anything out. And I lost many times, although having boarded hate cards, while I won games 1, 2 or 3 when I didn't sideboard anything...

So my question is, can we afford that much sideboarding, or is our Maindeck just perfect the way it is?

P.S.: First Post :)

menace13
01-27-2011, 07:47 AM
Talking to a friend online about Sneak Show, He pointed out a few lists to me.

See what guys think about the lists.

Some different choices were Vendilion Cliques in Main, 2 REBs main, No petals but SSG instead, 2 Tomb/ 2 City split, Sideboards had 2 Magus/ 2 Blood Moon.

1st place, 4th Place, 54 man.
http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_83rd.html

Blog and report in Japanese for a different event and player.
http://35292.diarynote.jp/201101232249132827/

Opportunist Cheats is the translation for Sneak Attack, such a fitting name, Google Translator is awesome.

The Blog mentions that he wanted to splash Black for Seize or maybe splash Wastelands as spells. Also he commented on that he liked SSG over the Petals.

Rain
01-27-2011, 08:55 AM
The author of the blog is known as the best ANT/TES player in Japan.
At the blog, he says he wants to cut the whole set of Vendilions for Preordains or other manipulations.
He doesn't say he wants Wastelands, he means he have felt he needed some disruptions like Thoughtseize but he wouldn't sacrifice the constancy of his mana base at all.
What he mentions is the necessary to play around Wastelands

menace13
01-27-2011, 11:31 AM
The author of the blog is known as the best ANT/TES player in Japan.
At the blog, he says he wants to cut the whole set of Vendilions for Preordains or other manipulations.
He doesn't say he wants Wastelands, he means he have felt he needed some disruptions like Thoughtseize but he wouldn't sacrifice the constancy of his mana base at all.
What he mentions is the necessary to play around Wastelands

Thank You very much, I misunderstood.

dave8
01-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Talking to a friend online about Sneak Show, He pointed out a few lists to me.

See what guys think about the lists.

Some different choices were Vendilion Cliques in Main, 2 REBs main, No petals but SSG instead, 2 Tomb/ 2 City split, Sideboards had 2 Magus/ 2 Blood Moon.

1st place, 4th Place, 54 man.
http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_83rd.html

Blog and report in Japanese for a different event and player.
http://35292.diarynote.jp/201101232249132827/

Opportunist Cheats is the translation for Sneak Attack, such a fitting name, Google Translator is awesome.

The Blog mentions that he wanted to splash Black for Seize or maybe splash Wastelands as spells. Also he commented on that he liked SSG over the Petals.

The list from the second link is just awesome. I like it very much. I think vendilion clique is a very nice and interesting addition to this deck. I personally don't like the sidebord though. I completely cannot understand why he was running submerges? Any thoughts?

Tokobotenkai
01-28-2011, 10:58 AM
The list from the second link is just awesome. I like it very much. I think vendilion clique is a very nice and interesting addition to this deck. I personally don't like the sidebord though. I completely cannot understand why he was running submerges? Any thoughts?

Looks like their meta has quite a few creatures? Maybe tempo decks with goyf? Considering there's SB propaganda.

But why is Magus in there? What MUs does he help with?

Karhumies
01-28-2011, 11:24 AM
But why is Magus in there? What MUs does he help with?

When dropped on T1-2 (the lists are running 2 A.Tomb, 2 C.ofTraitors, 3 Lotus Petal/Simian Spirit Guide), anything except for mono-R Goblins, mono-U Merfolk, Mono-G Elves, Mono-B The Gate and mono-W weenie, pretty much?

I can see at least landstill decks having quite some problems if their primary win condition is Mishra's Factory, for example. And casting a Jace with 4 Mountains (supposing a 3c or 4c landstill build which fights versus being Wasteland color-screwed by removing all basic lands and replacing all of them with duals) should not be that easy, either.

I am guessing it is somewhat of an anti-Karakas (possibly even anti-Jace) card, which can also mana screw some other opponents using lots of duals. Which sounds like covering many of the deck's bad MUs, really.

EDIT: Paying the upkeep cost of Peacekeeper should also be difficult without basic Plains.

Tokobotenkai
01-29-2011, 01:50 AM
When dropped on T1-2 (the lists are running 2 A.Tomb, 2 C.ofTraitors, 3 Lotus Petal/Simian Spirit Guide), anything except for mono-R Goblins, mono-U Merfolk, Mono-G Elves, Mono-B The Gate and mono-W weenie, pretty much?

I can see at least landstill decks having quite some problems if their primary win condition is Mishra's Factory, for example. And casting a Jace with 4 Mountains (supposing a 3c or 4c landstill build which fights versus being Wasteland color-screwed by removing all basic lands and replacing all of them with duals) should not be that easy, either.

I am guessing it is somewhat of an anti-Karakas (possibly even anti-Jace) card, which can also mana screw some other opponents using lots of duals. Which sounds like covering many of the deck's bad MUs, really.

EDIT: Paying the upkeep cost of Peacekeeper should also be difficult without basic Plains.

I understand the power of moon effects, but why Magus over Blood Moon? If either is better, we would see a 4 of either card instead of a 2/2 split. That's what's I'm not getting.

NukeMoose
01-29-2011, 02:25 AM
The list from the second link is just awesome. I like it very much. I think vendilion clique is a very nice and interesting addition to this deck. I personally don't like the sidebord though. I completely cannot understand why he was running submerges? Any thoughts?


I have always been a fan of submerge. but the thing I like most about it in Sneak in Show is that can "condem" KotR if they activate it. It's also not bad against Goyf and fetch lands. When I played S&S I was most afraid of decks running those cards, but maybe that's just me. Getting rid of KotR can win games because often it's the only thing that answers Emrakul in their deck.

Rain
01-29-2011, 08:03 AM
Blood Moon can often be hit by Spell Pierce post board. Magus can't.

Tokobotenkai
01-29-2011, 01:51 PM
Blood Moon can often be hit by Spell Pierce post board. Magus can't.

Good point, never thought of it that way.

That nice guy
02-02-2011, 03:10 PM
I have a lot of trouble trying to decide what to side out. Anyone care to help?

ForlornEgoist
02-02-2011, 03:36 PM
Which particularly MU's are you trying to side in/out against? Also post a decklist please so we can see what we have to work with. :P

So, y'know, I honestly don't know how I feel about the Blightsteel Colossus. On the one-hand it becomes that much less amazing when StP/PtE or if they chump block and they're sitting there with less-than-lethal poison, but on the other hand the aspect of killing them immediately when it CIP makes it highly attractive. I'm currently doing the standard 4-4 split of Emrakul but I may considering dropping perhaps 1-1 of both and possibly a Song to see how the card performs.

Forlorn Egoist

kingsey
02-02-2011, 10:18 PM
For the upcoming SCG open what would be the list of creatures you would run?

4 Emrakul is a given but then what?

Progenitus?
woodfall?
Ulamog ( the sac 4 is amazing )


Also what do you feel about using SDT in this deck?

Tokobotenkai
02-02-2011, 10:34 PM
For the upcoming SCG open what would be the list of creatures you would run?

4 Emrakul is a given but then what?

Progenitus?
woodfall?
Ulamog ( the sac 4 is amazing )


Also what do you feel about using SDT in this deck?

I personally ran both woodfall and prog, and I feel that Prog is still the best. I don't like Ulamog due it being easily removed. Woodfall is kinda removal for those ensnaring bridge and other pesky stuff but all of them don't help against humility. I'm also currently trying out Form of the Dragon as moat + beacon of destruction works amazing against quite a few decks.

SDT is great here for added library manipulation but maybe at a 1-2 of, you don't want to run 4.

kingsey
02-03-2011, 12:09 AM
I was going to 2 tops.

U said you ran both?

What numbers did you use?

4 emrakul
3 progen
3 woodfall?

I'll be running 3 intuition as well so 3 seems to be a magic number?

Mind posting up your best list we can compair?:cool:

Tokobotenkai
02-03-2011, 12:20 AM
I was going to 2 tops.

U said you ran both?

What numbers did you use?

4 emrakul
3 progen
3 woodfall?

I'll be running 3 intuition as well so 3 seems to be a magic number?

Mind posting up your best list we can compair?:cool:

I ran a 2/2 split but dropped woodfall in the end, as I don't meet decks with ensnaring bridge.

I run 2 intuition, haven't tried 3 though.

This is my current list I'm testing.

// 19 Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tropical Island

// 8 Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus

// 33 Other Spells
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
3 Firesprout
1 Wipe Away
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

There's no reanimator and dredge in my meta so no gy hate, and my meta has next to zero storm combo except for a significant number of belcher which I have no issues with.

I'm wanting to try Form of the Dragon but no idea what to cut for it.

Wipe Away is there to fill the last slot in my SB.

menace13
02-03-2011, 12:40 AM
I personally ran both woodfall and prog, and I feel that Prog is still the best. I don't like Ulamog due it being easily removed. Woodfall is kinda removal for those ensnaring bridge and other pesky stuff but all of them don't help against humility. I'm also currently trying out Form of the Dragon as moat + beacon of destruction works amazing against quite a few decks.

SDT is great here for added library manipulation but maybe at a 1-2 of, you don't want to run 4.

Form of Dragon sounds amazing against RB Goblins and Landstill off of a SnT.
One of the lists in the links i posted last page had Steel Wind, 1 in main 3 in sb. No reason why It couldn't be Iona, Sphinx seems good only in the favorable mus.

A fast Progen can still race almost anything, last daily I played against Dreadstill and made a Prog off of a SnT he made Stiflenought, 2 turns 14 damage from him 20 from me.

@That Nice Guy- sideboarding is different every game and matchup. What list are you using and what match ups do you need help with?

kingsey
02-10-2011, 12:14 AM
Hey guys this is the list i think i've settled on.

3x lotus petal
4x sneak attack
4x show and tell
4x emrakul
4x progenitus
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
3x daze
3x spell peirce
2x intuition
2x sensei's top
2x island
1x mountain
4x ancient tomb
4x volcanic island
4x scalding tarn
4x blue fetch

Looking for help on the sideboard. also what to take out vs what match ups?
sideboard looks like

3x firespout ( tribal )
3x Red ele blast ( CB/FISH )
3x null rod ( Lots )
3x cyrpt (dredg )
3x ???

Looking forward to what you think.

JadeOberg
02-10-2011, 12:21 AM
I've recently picked this deck up, and I was wondering if people have tested or theorized about burning wish, and moving one show and tell to the sideboard?

ivanpei
02-10-2011, 04:00 AM
Instead of Sneak Show, this guy runs Natural Order- Show and Tell:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36632
It T8ed SCG Open Minneapolis just recently. I opened a thread here including my proposed list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19952-Show-and-Tell-Natural-Order&p=520707#post520707

I would like your insights on this combination at the thread above as I have no experience with Sneak Show and your thoughts are valued. I played Necrotic Ooze/Show and Tell so I have some experience with Show and Tell, but not a whole lot. Cheers and sorry for clogging up this thread.

Tokobotenkai
02-13-2011, 09:09 AM
I've recently picked this deck up, and I was wondering if people have tested or theorized about burning wish, and moving one show and tell to the sideboard?

We did have some discussion about Wish in Salvation and it was mostly kinda meh.

It screws up your sb and we don't really have many decent targets to wish for, at least, enough to warrant BW main.

@Ivanpei:
Looks real interesting actually, quite similar to a few old reanimator lists where they have goyfs as a backup plan.

But how is the manabase against decks with non-basic hate? With the higher cmc requirements, it might seem rather tough.

ivanpei
02-13-2011, 10:58 PM
From my experience, its painfully slow. T3 combo, kill on Turn 5 (Turn 4 with emmy). Against aggro it's fine because you can disrupt with thoughtseize and force while chumping with your mana bears/dryad arbod. Wastelands and stuff are fine, you are slowed a turn but so is the opponent. You don't have the "initial mana" problem because it runs 19 lands and 8 mana critters. You do turn on their STP though, if they know how to use them correctly on your mana critters. The deck however, is very good vs control, the combo is easily assembled, very little dead cards, can run 4 force, 4 thoughtseize, 1 duress + 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm, 3 LDV for very high consistency and disruption package.

The weakness is the combo mirror. This deck is way too slow to put a clock on other combo decks. I tested against reanimator and he Iona-ed me a turn quicker than my own show and tell/No, raping my deck. TES and other combo decks are much faster than this deck and run a similar disruption package. That's the major problem.

SMR0079
02-14-2011, 03:41 AM
I got to the finals today and won a set of Forces with the Natural Order version. I think it's strictly superior to Sneak Attack.

R1 - Merfolk 1-2
R2 - B/W Death &Taxes 2-0
R3 - Landstill - 2-0
R4 - Landstill - 2-0
R5 - DRAW
T8 - Goblines 2-1
T4 - Countertop - 2-0
T2 - Zoo - 0-2

In the finals I lost game 1 to Price of Progress. Game 2 I mulled and kept a medicore hand and lost to e

ivanpei
02-14-2011, 03:57 AM
Can we see the list? Congratulations! Btw was it the stock SCG UG list or did you try my UGb list? Cheers! Would love to see a report!

caenel
02-14-2011, 06:04 AM
I just did a 5-2 run in a side event on GP Paris, finishing 14th in a field of 83 (worst resistance because of losing the first 2 rounds). I basically play a standard-ish Sneaky Show deck with 9 creatures. Here's the list I played:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
2 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

1 Woodfall Primus

1 Seething Song
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack

4 Progenitus

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout

In the end, I was quite happy with how the list performed, but starting out, I was getting rather frustrated with some mana issues. I'll give you a quick rundown on my rounds (all from memory, but I'll try to do my best).

R1: CounterTop
G1: I have a hand that can go for a T3 protected Show and Tell, but need to find one additional mana... I need to wait untill turn 5 or 6 to have it. By that time, a goyf is hitting me and he's got too many counterspells to get through.
G2: See game one, but replace Show and Tell with Sneak Attack. Honestely, it would not have made any difference here, since his hand was like 5 counters after the game...

0-1-0

R2: CounterTop
This round is rather vague in my memory, but I think I manage to win game 1, lose game 2 and for game 3, I refer to my round 1 matches...

0-2-0

Needless to say I'm a bit sad at this point.

R3: Death and Taxes
G1: I have to mull down to 5, but keep a hand with a T2 Show and Tell --> Progenitus. I win.
G2: I'm lucky I didn't show any red cards/land in game 1 and he doesn't think I have Sneak Attack. He makes the error of tapping out with his Karakas on the table with 6 permanents on his side. I can Sneak Attack in Emrakul and attack in my turn. Game over.

1-2-0

R4: Sneaky Show
G1: His hand has a quick Sneak Attack, mine has a quick Sneak Attack and counters. I win.
G2: He boarded in Stronghold Gambit and plays it on turn 2. I'm lucky enough to have a Progenitus in hand to match his Progenitus. I have a lot of card draw and race him to a quick Sneak Attack with Emrakul.

2-2-0

R5: Zoo
Both of these games are really easy to describe. Two times T2 Show and Tell --> Emrakul. He seemed a bit upset after the match...

3-2-0

R6: Enchantress
G1: I have a quick Show and Tell --> Emrakul and beat him.
G2: I work my way to a Sneak Attack --> Emrakul after dispatching of his Peace Keeper, but manage to totally screw it up (don't ask) and lose the game.
G3: I have a quick Sneak Attack --> Emrakul and win.

4-2-0

R6: home-brew Rock type
G1: T3 Show and Tell --> Emrakul is good enough.
G2: He keeps me off balance with discard long enough to win.
G3: I manage a quick Show and Tell --> Emrakul again. He puts in Knight of the Reliquary and I get scared, but he didn't play Karakas, so it was enough.

5-2-0

In the end, I was rather pleased with how the deck went, but sometimes, the "nearly there, but just not" hands are very frustrating.

Some notes:
- I love Preordain, it never let me down.
- I really love Woodfall Primus as well. A maindeck solution to common hate is really handy.
- Bounce in the board is a must, as is Pyroblast.

Rallye
02-14-2011, 07:15 AM
At the moment i play with this list:

lands:
4x ancient tomb
4x scalding tarns
4x island
2x mountain
4x volcanic island
1x flooded strand
1x wooded foothills
1x misty rainforest

creatures:
3x emrakul
3x progenitus
3x woodfall primus
works great with intuition

3x lotus petal(ssg is more vulnerable to discard)
4x show and tell
3x intuition
4x sneak attack
4x fow
2x seething song
3x ponder
4x brainstorm
3x daze

Ponder will be replaced bij preordain as soon as i have them. I choose for daze over spell pierce. Most of the time when i play show&tell or sneak attack I'm tapped out, so the pierce is useless.And since i use the counters only to protect my own treads or on a humility, this is for me the better option. For other big non creature problems is have the primus.(jace, karakas) The only real problem is when humility resolved. But that's not the card i see much right now.

At the moment my sideboard is something like this:
3x pyroblast
3x submerge get rid of knight when they fetch.
3x firespout
3x bloodmoon
3x .. meta slot

Didn't play it at a tournament jet, cause I'm still improving,and look for the best sideboard, en finding out how, and what to side, butt overall it works fine.Siding seems the biggest problem. Most of the time i pull daze out.Maybe you've got some tips?
Meta here you'll see lot of:
Elf combo with emrakul and mirror entity
countertop
ant
burn
zoo
merfolk

-~Rallye

caenel
02-14-2011, 07:50 AM
If your meta really has a lot of CounterTop like decks, at least consider playing SSG over Petal. You said yourself that SSG is more vulnerable to discard than Petal, but the meta you list shows no decks capable of throwing around a lot of dedicated discard. And SSG is way stronger vs CounterTop than Petal, since you will never ever land a Petal when they have CounterTop going while SSG always nets you a mana there.

menace13
02-14-2011, 08:32 AM
If your meta really has a lot of CounterTop like decks, at least consider playing SSG over Petal. You said yourself that SSG is more vulnerable to discard than Petal, but the meta you list shows no decks capable of throwing around a lot of dedicated discard. And SSG is way stronger vs CounterTop than Petal, since you will never ever land a Petal when they have CounterTop going while SSG always nets you a mana there.

I find Counterbalance to be an easy Match up. They have to have Counterspell heavy hands and not tap out. It leaves enough time to sculpt FoW/Daze or SnT/Sneak. I usually board out to 18 lands against them or any other lists not attacking my mana(-1 Mountain -1 Island).

For your list I would also side out to 8 cantrips, no Songs, Primus for 3 Rebs and 2 Moons. Daze is pretty good against the lists using Counterspell(even on the draw) and rarely you can nab the Pierce or REB/BEB with it.

@SMR and Ivan- Feel Sneak to be better than anything else against Merfolk, Zoo,Dredge and Affinity. A NatOrder for Prog mid to late against those decks is just a really big wall and won't stop them from winning.

Jessinchen
02-14-2011, 04:35 PM
Hey hey and greetings from Germany,
it's my first post and please don't be angry for my school english. ^.^

I just starting to play Sneakilicious and after testing a lot of these lists here, I found the following one which finished 2nd on a 42 tournament,... I want to share it with you:

MD:

4 Emrakul
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus

3 Ponder
4 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition

3 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack

4 Lotus Petal

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

SB:

3 Firespout
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Red Elemental Blast


Especially Pyrostatic Pilar seems an really interesting and strong option against a lot of Non-Vial decks. At the moment I'm not sure if it is necessary. Blood Moon MD is a meta choice for sure. Mhh maybe, I will test this list (a bit modified) on a smaller tournament at the next weekend.

Squirrel
02-14-2011, 04:36 PM
no Emrakul?

Jessinchen
02-14-2011, 04:40 PM
Sorry sorry,

i forgot Emmy. I edited it. :)

Jester*
02-14-2011, 04:55 PM
hi! i'm the player who finished second in that tournament, and I made four consecutive top8 with sneak and show, two with this list ... i'm not mad, I play Emrakul! :) for the blood moon maindeck, it's very strong versus control (land deed, landsteel, etc) and 43lands ; furthermore is an answer for Karakas! pyropillar is there mainly for Tes, which usually win a turn before us!

ah, sorry for my bad english XD

SMR0079
02-14-2011, 05:10 PM
I find Counterbalance to be an easy Match up. They have to have Counterspell heavy hands and not tap out. It leaves enough time to sculpt FoW/Daze or SnT/Sneak. I usually board out to 18 lands against them or any other lists not attacking my mana(-1 Mountain -1 Island).

For your list I would also side out to 8 cantrips, no Songs, Primus for 3 Rebs and 2 Moons. Daze is pretty good against the lists using Counterspell(even on the draw) and rarely you can nab the Pierce or REB/BEB with it.

@SMR and Ivan- Feel Sneak to be better than anything else against Merfolk, Zoo,Dredge and Affinity. A NatOrder for Prog mid to late against those decks is just a really big wall and won't stop them from winning.

And what about when you Sneak Progentius rathern then Emrakeul? You generally lose.

kingsey
02-14-2011, 05:12 PM
Other then death and taxes ( green and taxes ) what decks play karakas maindeck?

do you think 4 progen 4 emmy is enough or cut 3 spell peirce for 3 woodfall primus?

Jester*
02-14-2011, 05:45 PM
in my area zoo play karakas maindeck! :(

eight monsters may be sufficient but i love primus, is an excellent answer to all the problematic permanents (except humility..) and we can often use it as land destruction, in matchups like tes this is very good! i don't like spell pierce maindeck, usually when i go for fast combo i don't have mana for other spells, so i use only free counter

menace13
02-14-2011, 06:14 PM
And what about when you Sneak Progentius rathern then Emrakeul? You generally lose.

Yes, Happens, but at least the potential is there to Sneak a board wipe and not NatO and lose.

SMR0079
02-14-2011, 06:24 PM
Yes, Happens, but at least the potential is there to Sneak a board wipe and not NatO and lose.
IT goes both ways. Against Countertop you generally prefer Progentius over Emrakul. Against aggro Emrakul over Shown tell. In neither instances do you want to Sneak in Progentius.

If I was to play red instead of green It would include Burning Wish and some number 1-3 Sneak attacks.

menace13
02-14-2011, 07:38 PM
IT goes both ways. Against Countertop you generally prefer Progentius over Emrakul. Against aggro Emrakul over Shown tell. In neither instances do you want to Sneak in Progentius.

If I was to play red instead of green It would include Burning Wish and some number 1-3 Sneak attacks.

There is no doubt that NatO for Prog is better than Sneak Prog(only in the case of 10 or less life and passing turn is lethal).What Sneak Attack allows is for Emrakul to have 8 outlets and Sneak also can get around Karakas(and almost anything else) provided an extra red mana.

Why less than 3 Sneak Attack if you can't tutor for them?

menace13
02-19-2011, 06:20 AM
Two 3-1's in the Daily Events online last few days. Meta is Cbalance, Storm, Junk, GW Maverick, GW Taxes. Zoo, and Dredge. Replaced Ponder for Preordain. Down to 19 lands now from 20, 18 is really hard to do with the online shuffler.

[Artifact]
4 Lotus Petal
[Creature]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
[Land]
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

[Enchantment]
4 Sneak Attack
[Instant]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
2 Pyroblast
[Sorcery]
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
60 cards

Sideboard

2 Blood Moon

2 Echoing Truth

2 Firespout

1 Pyroblast

2 Spell Pierce

3 Tormod's Crypt

3 Trinisphere

15 cards

arwall
02-20-2011, 10:39 AM
I really think replacing Woodfall Primus with either Malfegor or really if what you are going for is getting rid of their stuff, I don't know why you didn't just put in Terastodon. With the fire power you have, your opponent having three 3/3 creatures is kind of diddly.

Tokobotenkai
02-20-2011, 10:56 AM
I really think replacing Woodfall Primus with either Malfegor or really if what you are going for is getting rid of their stuff, I don't know why you didn't just put in Terastodon. With the fire power you have, your opponent having three 3/3 creatures is kind of diddly.

Malfegor eats StP/PtE, so does terastodon.

Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair CIP trigger blows an annoying permanent up (primus blows 2 with sneak) and swings for some point of damage (if via sneak, else S&T is kinda bad with them). But compared to Terastodon, you have to drop both emrakul and terastodon in order to utilize the full capacity (blowing up your lands for 3/3 creatures are usually win more) as you don't want to blow a couple of permanents dropping terastodon alone, having your opponents StP/PtE the elephant, giving your opponent free 3 3/3 beatsticks.

menace13
02-20-2011, 10:07 PM
Made top 4 at mtgo Premier with same list as above. Lost in Swiss to 2nd(gobs) and 5th(UW Bane) place and lost in top 8 to mirror match and eventual winner of the event.

Highlite of my night was playing against 12 Post Candelabra. Now I need Prime Titans :(

Top 8

1. Sneak Show
2. Rb Goblins
3. Zoo
4. Sneak Show
5. UW Baneslayer Control
6. Dredge
7. UGR with BBElf, Ancestral Visions, Noble and Goyf.
8. 4 color Cbalance

TheShaun
02-20-2011, 11:02 PM
Finished 3rd at the Comic Depot Legacy event with the following:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Emrakul
2 Progenitus
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastadon
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarns
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
2 Mountain

SB
3 Pyroblast
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
3 Firespout
3 Leyline of Sanctity


Beat Deadguy Ale, Pump Infect, Enchantress, and Naya Sligh, then 2 draws into top 8. In top 8 I beat the coolest lands deck I've ever seen, but it was a terrible matchup for him. Top 4 I played the same Enchantress deck from before and he beat me in 3. 3rd game was probably the most epic game I've ever been a part of. I was facing down a lethal turn as he has Words of War in play, Solitary Confinement, Sterling Grove, and an O ring on my Woodfall Primus. He cracks the Sterling Grove during his upkeep to get... I can't remember, but during his draw step I Sneak in Terastadon blowing up Words of War, the O ring, and Solitary Confinement. Woodfall blows up his Serra's Sanctum, and he's left with a board seriously lacking gas. All I need to do is draw a fatty or Intuition and I'm money, but that doesn't happen for 3 turns. Then he plays Replenish for like 25 enchantments. Overall was a great tournament, I know I made plenty of mistakes but definitely learned a lot.

I am quite happy with this build. I initially had 3 Blood Moons in the place of Spell Pierce, but as I showed up I saw nearly half the field playing blue and made the swap. I do think I was pretty lucky to dodge blue the whole time, but at least I was prepared. Chalice was my sideboard MVP for sure. Only changes that I'm considering are making a decision between Woodfall or Terastadon, but there are situations where each of them is definitely preferred. I also think I should look into upping my Progenitus count to 3 so I can Intuition for it, but I'm not sure. Daze has been kind of underwhelming for me so far, but it might just have been bad timing today.


Edit to add hilarious moment of the day, Pump Infect opponent. I make a turn 2 Emrakul on the draw, he had an infect dude turn 2. Turn 3 he attacks, I block, and he goes Invigorate, Berserk (it's the guy who gets +2/+2 when blocked), making it into a 14/7 infect dude. Emrakul lives, but becomes a 1/1. Luckily for me, that 1/1 still has annihilator 6 and locks the board down. Eventually it gets there.

JustPAT4
02-22-2011, 07:12 PM
@TheShaun: Definitely think you should get up to 3 Progen to give you slightly more versatility with Intuition--that circumstance will definitely arise.

I'm interested in more info on why Chalice of the Void was your MVP. What matchups did you bring it in against and what did you set it at?

TheShaun
02-22-2011, 07:53 PM
@TheShaun: Definitely think you should get up to 3 Progen to give you slightly more versatility with Intuition--that circumstance will definitely arise.

I'm interested in more info on why Chalice of the Void was your MVP. What matchups did you bring it in against and what did you set it at?

Set it at 1 vs Sligh to shut down every burn spell and every creature except Goyf. Put it at 1 vs Enchantress, but that really only works if I do it on turn 1 or 2. I brought it in vs the lands opponent to set at 2 and shut down loam and burning wish (his variant was very different like I said), but never drew it against him. He would have been pretty hard pressed to find a way to win if I had gotten it out though. Also I think I made a huge sideboarding error by not bringing in my Firespouts vs Enchantress, I think they would have been huge and bought me a few turns. Come to think of it, I might have decided on Firespout as MVP if I had brought it in for that matchup. I think that both of those cards are great for us, as we can't expect to get a turn 1/2/3 Emrakul every game. Either of those cards will buy us typically 2 more turns minimum.

JustPAT4
02-22-2011, 11:25 PM
Set it at 1 vs Sligh to shut down every burn spell and every creature except Goyf. Put it at 1 vs Enchantress, but that really only works if I do it on turn 1 or 2. I brought it in vs the lands opponent to set at 2 and shut down loam and burning wish (his variant was very different like I said), but never drew it against him. He would have been pretty hard pressed to find a way to win if I had gotten it out though.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. Did Chalice on 1 ever hinder you considering it turns 10 cards in your list into dead cards? I could see where the risk/reward ratio is probobly in your favor vs. sligh, but in general I think I'd argue for other sideboard options considering that Chalice at 1 (one of legacy's strongest plays) nukes a solid quarter of our spells.

thoughts?

TheShaun
02-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Well almost every time I SB it's a 3 for 3, since almost everything I play is in 3's. So if it's just the Chalice, I'll take out Ponder. If it's Chalice and something else, I'll also take out 3 Spell Pierce. Really cuts my 1 drops down to only Brainstorm, and who can really cut Brainstorm.

Though I did run into a rough spot in my final match when I made a turn 1 Chalice at 1 against Enchantress. Was great as he had 4 1 drops in his hand, but he eventually O ringed it. I used my Echoing Truth on a different O ring that was holding Sneak Attack, which put the Chalice back into play but set at 0 now. And of course my next 2 draws were Lotus Petal :o

Zirath
02-23-2011, 11:22 AM
I've been noticing there is a lot of overlap in the strategy between this deck and Dragon Stompy. Is it possible to make use of the Dragon Stompy disruption package MD while still running out Sneak-Show to win? I'm sorry for not having read the thread deeply enough to see if this was discussed.

Tokobotenkai
02-23-2011, 11:26 AM
I've been noticing there is a lot of overlap in the strategy between this deck and Dragon Stompy. Is it possible to make use of the Dragon Stompy disruption package MD while still running out Sneak-Show to win? I'm sorry for not having read the thread deeply enough to see if this was discussed.

Yes there is.

There were some older list that was Sneak Attack with a Dragon Stompy shell that were successful too, running Through the Breach over S&T due to it being mono red.

Zirath
02-23-2011, 12:38 PM
Mmm, alright. I'll dig through the thread carefully to find out more about it.

TheShaun
02-24-2011, 12:04 AM
It's definitely possible, with a hindrance. There are really 3 things you can do with the deck. Speed, protection, disruption. Speed will be cards like cantrips, seething song, lotus petal, ssg. Protection is FoW, spell pierce, daze, etc. Disruption is blood moon, trinisphere, chalice, etc. I really like all 3 aspects, but I am unable to find room for all 3. I did have 3 maindeck blood moons until I saw a mountain of blue cards in my last tournament. It is definitely doable, I just think you'll have to really weaken one of the other aspects. I can really only see this in an aggro heavy field where you can drop protection to add disruption, buying yourself extra time to set up.

kingsey
02-24-2011, 12:38 AM
I'm leaning towards U/R protection route is the best. I tried the mono red accel route and it just folds to any deck with counterspells.

Think i got my list finalized. Now learning how to sideboard properly


Firespout is awesome just incase anyone didnt know:cool: