[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

I'm now running:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Inquistion of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

--BOARD--
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
1 Perish (6 cards against Maverick seems good)
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Slots (Extirpate, Duress, Diabolic Edict, etc.)

[Arsenal]

I've wanted to get Libraries in my build too, but always was like "Bob + Top is already alot" and Bob and Library have the same cmc (don't want to get too overloaded at 2cc slot for Spell Snare blowouts). I suspect they've been nutty everytime you get to untap with it.

[Qweerios]

@Sughayyer

I think Goyf is a zero-or-four-of card, and here is why:

He is vanilla, smaller than KotR, and subject to the same weaknesses. Being "on the curve" is not an argument when you have other options such as Ooze, Qasali, Teeg, or even space to add more GSZ. Goyf in the Legacy environment is a tempo card while GSZ is a midrange card. Unless you are commited to a conflicting strategy, don't play both in your Legacy deck. In the advent that you only have 3 mana and GSZ for 2 is your best or only option and your purpose is either to put pressure on your opponent or grant immediate defense (which seems to be the arguments in favor of a Goyf here), don't GSZ for a Goyf because:

-Those situations are infrequent;
-On a poor board and in Top deck mode, Goyf offers less in terms of disruption, versatility, and therefore pressure than Ooze, Teeg, Pridemage, or hell, even Skinshifter;
-As a defensive move, cards like Ooze, Sporecap Spider, Wall of Blossom will do a better job;
-As an offensive move, you are either: losing the game, on tilt, or need to buyback into the game and Goyf will do that more poorly than any of the aforementioned cards...

The only situation I can think of when Goyf is favored as a 2 CMC GSZ target is when your options are limited or your can only produce 3 mana, your life total is in lethal range of your opponent's creature(s), and your opponent's life total is in lethal range of Goyf. Only in that extremely narrow siatuation is Goyf superior to his alternatives because you have nothing better to play or cannot play anything better, and his immediate high p/t has to be used in both a defensive and offensive fashion.

Bob is also zero-or-four but for different reasons that I won't elaborate on.

Vindicate/Pulse cards are clunky. I wouldn't play anywhere near more than 3 Pulse if Pulse is my card of choice. As for Vindicate, I think 4 is fine because you can use it in a proactive fashion by destroying lands, and that grants Vindicate more application in more matchups. As for playing a split of both, don't go overboard and play more than 3-4 pieces total IMO.

I wouldn't play more than 1 LftL in your list because it isn't central to your gameplan. LftL isn't something you necessarily want to see in every game and drawing a second one would be more detrimental than incremental. I don't currently own a LftL but I have played with it before and I think having a singleton in your 75 can be very beneficial, especially with Liliana and Mox.

[sdematt]

Untapping with Sylvan has been amazing. Squeeze at least one in, if you can.

I don't think Goyf is the wrong card for this deck at all. You need actual threats and disruption, not Qasali Pridemage and disruption. What I mean is, you need fat. We're a deck that rips apart hands and blows stuff up, and if you don't have anything that can close the gap quickly, you're doomed. Utility is good, but so is beef. I know many lists are dropping him, but show me a replacement that closes games and I'll change to it. As of right now, there isn't anything great at 2 CMC. If I could play more Knights, I would.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Untapping with Sylvan has been amazing. Squeeze at least one in, if you can.

I don't think Goyf is the wrong card for this deck at all. You need actual threats and disruption, not Qasali Pridemage and disruption. What I mean is, you need fat. We're a deck that rips apart hands and blows stuff up, and if you don't have anything that can close the gap quickly, you're doomed. Utility is good, but so is beef. I know many lists are dropping him, but show me a replacement that closes games and I'll change to it. As of right now, there isn't anything great at 2 CMC. If I could play more Knights, I would.

-Matt

How do you untap with sylvan?

[damionblackgear]

How do you untap with sylvan?

If you have a Sylvan Library in play when your turn starts, you've untapped with Library.

I like the points of Goyf being a 0 or 4 card but don't agree. It's not strong enough to warrant 4 spots anymore. The format again contains decks which Goyf is required (for it's randomly larger size and speed in which you can play it). As such, I don't think it's a 4 or a 0.

lastly, New Matches are up here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTeWPPwQn0c&list=PLFFE18FB4B4B0315B&feature=mh_lolz).

[Stuuch]

Went to a local GPT ghent today. Had some bad matchups. Lost against two high tide decks and one maverick deck. Won against painter and budget hive mind deck. My list was almost the same that is posted about two three pages back. Really missed vindicate and hymn in the combo matches but otherwise the deck worked fine. Could have won the maverick match but I was a bit unlucky there in game two.

[sdematt]

That's too bad. You''ll get them next time! :cool:

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

A couple of questions for experienced Rock players:

1) Does anyone use Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime/Cycle lands anymore?

2) Is Pernicious Deed no longer good enough for maindeck inclusion?

3) Has anyone tried Grave Titan as a high-end bomb? (This may be more of a Nic-Fit type of play.)

Thank you in advance for any help!

[Sughayyer]

Today, i lended the deck to a friend from my team, end he's playing a tournament with it (with i unfortunately couldn't attend to)

He'xs using this list:
3 inquisition
3 thoughtseize
3 vindicate

4 swords to plowshares

4 knights of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
3 bob (i had 4, i just found out that i lost one :S)
3 kitchen finks

3 liliana of the veil

3 sensei's divining top
1 umezawa's jitte

3 pernicious deed

as for the lands, the same as before, but adding bojuka bog and karakas to main.
side:

2 enlightened tutors
3 engineered plagues
2 maelstrom pulses
1 life from the loam
1 nihil spellbomb
1 relic of progenitus
3 leyline of sanctity
1 elspeth, knight errand
1 pithing needle

he's expecting a lot of aggro decks for today... I'll post his results

and you all, thanks for all the advice :) Befor I knew this forum, I thought I was the last Rock lover rsrsr

[Sughayyer]

sorry for all the grammar mistakes on the last post, im in a hurry

[sdematt]

A couple of questions for experienced Rock players:

1) Does anyone use Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime/Cycle lands anymore?

2) Is Pernicious Deed no longer good enough for maindeck inclusion?

3) Has anyone tried Grave Titan as a high-end bomb? (This may be more of a Nic-Fit type of play.)

Thank you in advance for any help!

1) So far, it seems very slow, especially in today's meta of very fast tempo decks. However, I believe lavafrogg/someone else is still using that plan. I'm playing a 1-of Life just for value.

2) Not really. It's quite slow and narrow, and it has fewer matchups that it's good against than before. Problem is, against Maverick, they can GSZ and Qasali it before you can play and activate it. It's still very good in the sideboard, though.

3) I haven't personally tried it, but it could be tried. 6 mana is a lot, and we're usually doing stuff with that mana anyway (Ooze, casting spells, etc.). You could definitely try it and let us know :)

-Matt

[Arsenal]

EE seems better than Deed maindeck. EE is usually a turn faster, doesn't hurt off a Bob reveal, and can hit Planeswalkers. I understamd EE doesn't sweep the board completely, but EE's positives outweigh the negatives when compared to Deed.

[lavafrogg]

A couple of questions for experienced Rock players:

1) Does anyone use Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime/Cycle lands anymore?

2) Is Pernicious Deed no longer good enough for maindeck inclusion?

3) Has anyone tried Grave Titan as a high-end bomb? (This may be more of a Nic-Fit type of play.)

Thank you in advance for any help!

I think I'm the only one who swears by Loam/cycle lands, and that has been solidified by the inclusion of liliana of the veil.

Deeds and titans are just not fast enough right now and make perfect sideboard cards for the slower match ups. You have to be mainboarded to deal with faster decks, rug/combo, as they are super popular right now.

[damionblackgear]

It may be time again to switch back to Leyline of the Void as the preferred Graveyard hate. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

Why would you say that?

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Why would you say that?

-Matt

There has been an increase in Graveyard (semi)based strategies coming back into the light. *That was REALLY fast for a response!

[sdematt]

I'm just sitting here, waiting for your replies. PM me your msn :P

Has Dredge really come back in a big way, or are you referring more to Reanimator, or both?

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I'm just sitting here, waiting for your replies. PM me your msn :P

Has Dredge really come back in a big way, or are you referring more to Reanimator, or both?

-Matt

It's that a lot of decks I've been seeing (Dredge, Loam based decks, Reanimator, etc) have not only been coming back but have also become fast enough and packing enough disruption that you're not 100% on being able to hit with the extractions. Additionally, the counter decks are now returning to Spell Pierce>Snare which causes issues there as well.

[ryn ball_2]

It may be time again to switch back to Leyline of the Void as the preferred Graveyard hate. Thoughts?

i'm putting it again in my 15 (and will do playtest this coming days), after attending GP manila philippines side event legacy i faced lots of reanimators dumping griselbrand and also dredge players esp. faithless dredge, sorry folks i used nic fit there, and starting from now i'm back from my first legacy deck--junk :) still i enjoyed a GY hate of 2 nihils, 1 tormods, 1 relic of progenitus, 2 extirpate from my nic fit sb :)

[lavafrogg]

I think at this point junk should be the deck playing 3-4 oozes main in addition to faster hate in the sideboard. At least that would give us a good shot at most game ones against graveyard decks.

[damionblackgear]

I think at this point junk should be the deck playing 3-4 oozes main in addition to faster hate in the sideboard. At least that would give us a good shot at most game ones against graveyard decks.

I 100% disagree with this idea. I'm not saying that it isn't a good card. Why I'm disagreeing, "Ooze gets worse with each one past the first you add to your 75. It's not Goyf - multiples don't play well together."

Additionally, even though the format has been returning to the importance of graveyards and its hate, there are other matches out there. Adding more Ooze to your 75 pulls from those matches. 1-2 Ooze is fine. At 3-4 you're asking to have issues with them stepping on each other's 'toes'.

[ryn ball_2]

I think at this point junk should be the deck playing 3-4 oozes main in addition to faster hate in the sideboard. At least that would give us a good shot at most game ones against graveyard decks.

i agree with you lavafrogg, i'm thinking of 4 bob 4 kotr 2-3 goyf and 3 ooze as my creatures w/ or w/o GSZ, your thoughts?

[KobeBryan]

i agree with you lavafrogg, i'm thinking of 4 bob 4 kotr 2-3 goyf and 3 ooze as my creatures w/ or w/o GSZ, your thoughts?

3 oozes are way too much. Ooze isn't a good card to topdeck when you already have one in play.

[ryn ball_2]

3 oozes are way too much. Ooze isn't a good card to topdeck when you already have one in play.

i think thats fine, i will not play the ooze in my hand and let my ooze in my field annoys my opponent GY if he destroyed it thats fine also i have a 2nd one in my hand, atm u have 2 ooze idk if it is enough, ooze is quite expensive here and limited in sources lemme know your thoughts?

[KobeBryan]

i think thats fine, i will not play the ooze in my hand and let my ooze in my field annoys my opponent GY if he destroyed it thats fine also i have a 2nd one in my hand, atm u have 2 ooze idk if it is enough, ooze is quite expensive here and limited in sources lemme know your thoughts?

i already told you my opinion. you seem content to run 3.

[ryn ball_2]

i already told you my opinion. you seem content to run 3.

sorry bro i mean to say i have only 2 copies of ooze :) yes my initial plan is to run 3 but i will test it first in mws maybe :)

[lavafrogg]

Ooze just has a pseudo legendary status. Against reanimator and dredge you want the first ooze ASAP, especially since we have no way to dig for one. If you are playing GSZ that might be fine but most junk players are not.

Against non graveyard matchups an ooze usually needs to only eat 2-3 dudes to be the largest creature on the board. Leaving plenty of room for others.

[Neffy]

Talking about specific dudes, are anyone trying to do some business with Thrun?

I just got über rolled by mirace whip last night and had everything countered, but i recon that thrun could be a problem for them. Is it too expensive though?
Im thinking that it could be a one off in decks that use Mox Diamonds to fix the double green mana issue easily.
Any thoughts?

[damionblackgear]

Getting an early Ooze up to a high enough level when you're Swording and other people are also trying to Ooze can be a bit more difficult than it may seem (graveyard based decks are going to be easier). I think it's a bad idea but, Everyone thought my mixing the SFM and GSZ Packages was a bad idea. So give it a chance. Let us know how it turns out.

As far as Thrun goes, a lot of people tried it and didn't like it (myself included). Against Miracle Whip, I think you'd rather have Choke and an Extra Teeg instead. Thrun still bites it to Terminus.

[ryn ball_2]

Talking about specific dudes, are anyone trying to do some business with Thrun?

I just got über rolled by mirace whip last night and had everything countered, but i recon that thrun could be a problem for them. Is it too expensive though?
Im thinking that it could be a one off in decks that use Mox Diamonds to fix the double green mana issue easily.
Any thoughts?

i did, i include thrun in my list as 1-off together w/ 2 gsz in the era of UW stoneblades with snapcasters. If this deck will increase in number i will add thrun in my deck again.

[ryn ball_2]

Getting an early Ooze up to a high enough level when you're Swording and other people are also trying to Ooze can be a bit more difficult than it may seem (graveyard based decks are going to be easier). I think it's a bad idea but, Everyone thought my mixing the SFM and GSZ Packages was a bad idea. So give it a chance. Let us know how it turns out.

As far as Thrun goes, a lot of people tried it and didn't like it (myself included). Against Miracle Whip, I think you'd rather have Choke and an Extra Teeg instead. Thrun still bites it to Terminus.

i'm back piloting again a junk deck, i will test your list in upcoming saturday legacy small event but i made my own modification something like -1 lily, +1 KOTR we will see :) and thanks for posting your mtgo vidz in your youtube channel i watched your matches.

[lavafrogg]

Damion, have you tried the list from a few pages back that had zero moxes 4 birds SFM and GSZ? it was pretty slick IMO and made the equipment plan a lot stronger.

it is qwerrios list...proably -arena +confidants.

[damionblackgear]

Damion, have you tried the list from a few pages back that had zero moxes 4 birds SFM and GSZ? it was pretty slick IMO and made the equipment plan a lot stronger.

it is qwerrios list...proably -arena +confidants.

I did. I honestly try to play most of the lists that're posted before I comment on them as a whole. I still feel Birds>Mox is a bad idea (at least for me). There are a lot of Forked Bolts in my local area though and that makes them a bit of a liability. Because of that, I didn't stick with the attempt for very long.

ryn ball_2 - Thank you. I'll keep posting them as long as there are people watching. Good luck at your tournament.

[Thorondor]

also have the same feeling, a first turn bird is not that strong than a first turn mox.

you can play your first turn confi/mystic/hymn, which most of the time gives you back you card disadvantage and the mox sticks most of the time, if you do not run deed on your own. :D

bird gives you 3 mana second turn, but most of the time you want to play 2cc drops anyway, if the bird did not die!

is it not the strong 2cc first turn drop why we play mox diamond?

[damionblackgear]

is it not the strong 2cc first turn drop why we play mox diamond?

No. We (should) play it for fixing. Using it simply because it Ramps on Turn 1 isn't a realistic purpose as we don't play 4. If we did play 4, we'd have other cards to take advantage of the Mox mana and/or requirements (i.e. Loam). We (should) use it because it allows us to play around things like Wasteland, Price of Progress, Submerge, and Moon Effects.

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys

It ended up that the list I posted before wasn't used. Nevertheless that was a very meta-specific list. Tomorrow I'm playing at my local store, and I'm switching back to this:

4 thoughtseize (or some split with inquisition of kozilek, still thinking)
4 hymn to tourach
3 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse

3 mox diamond
3 sensei's divining top

1 sylvan library

3 dark confidant (i know... still missing the fourth)
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 swords to plowshares

2 liliana of the veil

lands:

4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

I'm still deciding options for my sideboard, but since there are many esper lingering souls I'll probably add another pulse, or deed, or even plague.

I'd like t add a stoneforge package in here, but i'd have to remove 5 cards, and I'd like suggestions.

Also, is it a bad idea to use a sejiri steppe (to protect the reliquary)? And what about a single ooze too?

[ryn ball_2]

Hi guys

It ended up that the list I posted before wasn't used. Nevertheless that was a very meta-specific list. Tomorrow I'm playing at my local store, and I'm switching back to this:

4 thoughtseize (or some split with inquisition of kozilek, still thinking)
4 hymn to tourach
3 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse

3 mox diamond
3 sensei's divining top

1 sylvan library

3 dark confidant (i know... still missing the fourth)
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 swords to plowshares

2 liliana of the veil

lands:

4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

I'm still deciding options for my sideboard, but since there are many esper lingering souls I'll probably add another pulse, or deed, or even plague.

I'd like t add a stoneforge package in here, but i'd have to remove 5 cards, and I'd like suggestions.

Also, is it a bad idea to use a sejiri steppe (to protect the reliquary)? And what about a single ooze too?


Nice list there somewhat classic junk/dark horizon build which i ran way way back
1) sb against esper lingering, deeds and pulse are straight forward answer, e-plague is just an add-on to fight against it but if you suspect your local meta runs tribal decks add e-plague but if only esper lingering souls are available just a sb of deeds and explosives are good, my suggestion is like 3 pulse, 1 vindicate in your MD game chances are high against them, vindicate is good but the echo effect of pulse is significant even it doesnt hit land :)

2)stoneforge package, hmmm i dont think you will agree to this -4 hymns, -3 mox d, +3 sfm, +2 equipments, +2 IOK or make a 3 thoughtseize 3 IOK split along w/ 3 sfm 2 equipments thats my configuration when i pilot sfm package

3)it is good to protect KOTR w/c is a big threat if not answered/countered i havnt try to insert sejirri steppe, maybe you can test it out :)

4) a single ooze is good along w/ GSZ if your like running sfm package w/ single ooze maybe check damionblack gear's list, atm i dont run sfm due my friends borrowed the package so i'm trying to make this creature list 4 bob 4 KOTR 3 goyf 2 ooze

[Sughayyer]

Today I won a local tournament (in a store that upholds tournaments on wednesdays, tuesdays and fridays), with a slightly different list than I postes (3 seize 1 iok, 2 vindicate and 2 pulse) and sideboard as follows:

2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 conversion
1 life from the loam
1 elspeth, knight-errand
1 thrun, the last troll
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 nihil spellbomb
1 duress
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 pithing needle

It was a small tournament (4 rounds), and i played against a gw, a sneak&show, a bug control and a lands.
Other decks present were a burn, a merfolks, a goblins, an esper stoneblade, and a bw no friends.
Shall I post a more detailed report?

And thanks for all your help and support :)

[damionblackgear]

Shall I post a more detailed report?

Yes, please.

[Qweerios]

@Thorondor

Well you see, the point of Birds was to land Arena/Lily/KotR on T2 or any combination of 1 and 2 CMC card without having to discard a card. Rock being a midrange aggro-control deck should be worried about discarding lands for tempo or pseudo-color-stability-thing.

Also, Forked Bolt is not an issue with Birds because there is nothing to Fork aside from dorks and a single Arbor in this deck. Unless you start overextending with Birds, your opponent is getting no value out of his Forks.

Here is my latest Bird Rock list:


Creatures (14)
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instant/Sorcery (16)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Artifact/Enchantment (8)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Phyrexian Arena

Lands (22)
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Choke
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Kitchen Finks


I took out Lily in favor of more Tops and Arenas because those are the real deal breakers in most fair matchups. I am also back on Vindicate because unlike Pulse, it is useful when you don't want it. Land denial is also a serious plan pre and post board.

[sdematt]

I'm pretty sure if I'm in the situation where I have too much removal, I've been doing my job, not I need to waste it on lands :P

-Matt

[Thorondor]

No. We (should) play it for fixing. Using it simply because it Ramps on Turn 1 isn't a realistic purpose as we don't play 4. If we did play 4, we'd have other cards to take advantage of the Mox mana and/or requirements (i.e. Loam). We (should) use it because it allows us to play around things like Wasteland, Price of Progress, Submerge, and Moon Effects.

sure, that is another big reason.
Any RUG deck, will bolt/fork bold/chain your bird if he can, or maybe even daze it, especially if you played a dual. But a resolved mox diamond will be there for the complete match.

I don't know about birds, but try it out, and keep us posted about the results.

[sdematt]

Birds taking a Bolt better than you taking a Bolt.

Question is, do you keep a hand with 2 lands and a Birds vs. two lands a Mox? One's 3 mana potentially, letting you play everything if it sticks, the other isn't.

-Matt

[Thorondor]

Birds taking a Bolt better than you taking a Bolt.

Question is, do you keep a hand with 2 lands and a Birds vs. two lands a Mox? One's 3 mana potentially, letting you play everything if it sticks, the other isn't.

-Matt

I could easily say: depends on the rest of your cards in hand. :P

Also if you are on the draw or on the play. Anyway having e.g. 1 confi, 1 mystic, 1 1cc discard and 1 maelstrom pulse, I gladly keep it with mox diamond. Only if I am stuck with mass 3cc spells e.g. 2 maelstrom, 1 lili, 1 knight, I would take a mulligan.
My experience with Mox Diamond is that the mana base is stable enough, sometimes you might get stuck on 2-3 lands, but most of the time the speed bonus you get makes it up for you.

[Sughayyer]

Due to requests (or at least one kkk) I'm reporting my last tournament.
The complete list of decks that were playing:
1 merfolks
1 goblins
1 dredge
2 esper blades
1 burn
1 sneak & show
1 bug control
1 gw
1 boros (rogue)
1 no friends (bw sinkhole/braids/the abyss shenanigans - who still plays this?!?!?!?)
1 BGW Junk (me!!)
1 lands

Round 1 - GW

I win the roll and start on play (he mulligans to 6 and keep without even looking). I open with 2 lands, a waste, a stp, a bob, a goyf and a top, if I remember. I play my land, he plays a fetch and passes (rather strange), i draw, cast my bob, and he casts a gut shot (!!!!) in the end of my turn. he casts then a gaddock. I remove him, cast my goyf and start punishing, cracking his savvanah, plowsharing his stoneforge, and hymnning him. he scoops.
1-0
on g2 he starts with zenith for dryad. I cast seize, and see 2 mother of runes, 1 reliquary, and removal. he draws a lot of threats wich i cant answer in time and wins the match
1-1
side: -3 mox, -1 library, + 2 deed, + 2 tutors
I didnt side for g2, i was waiting to see what he would bring. I decided I needed more deeds than mana fixing, and I was on play.
I start with a top, then a bob wich is plowshared. On his turn 3 he resolves a crucible and I resolve my deed. He wastelanded me, but I topdecked a land, bursted his board (also included a dryad).
then I cast a reiquary followed by a goyf next turn. He scoops.
2-1

Round 2 Sneak & Show

That player usually pilots a reanimator (main reason for me including the karakas and bojuka bog main deck). After I win the roll and start on with a mox and a Toughtseize, I realized he was playing sneak & show. he had an ancient tomb, a volcanic island, a griselband, 2 brainstorms and a ponder. Since there was no real business, I discard the ponder, ony thing that he may use to shuffle his deck right now, play a wasteland (I started with the mox) and passed.
He plays the volcanic, waste, he answers with a brainstorm, etc. I resolve a goyf, and start punishing him. He simply didnt find ANYTHING on g1.
on g2, he plays a fetch, I play mana, mox, bob wich is countered. he plays another land and passes
I resolve a goyf and he shows and tells for sneak attack, but he didnt have another red mana left to use it. I put reliquary on the board, and on my turn I pulse sneak attack and hit with goyf.
He plays another sneak attack, but he didnt have enough threats, i had reliquary to fetch the karakas etc..... he puts emrakul down to attempt a block (and to lure me to fetch and tap the kakarask on my turn) but i let my goyf die (at this point I had 2 goyfs and 1 reliquary). he tried that one again, and in the next turn was dealt lethal damage.
2-0

Round 3 BUG Control

I knoew this was goint to be one of the worst matchs. Deed, Jace, Liliana, innocent bloods, disrupts, counters, snapcasters and life from the loam. I was able to answer most of his early threats, like a liliana and a jace, but he resolved a pernicious deed wich was hard to paly around since he also had a lot of removal in his hand. I tried to buy time, but he started biting me with a mishra, and later, a creeping tar pit. This game took too long, and I can't remember it all. But one thing I remember is he almost asking me to concede (my, you're persistent, aren't you) then I realized he was getting out of resources. He started to bounce a reliquary with jace to gain time, andI couldn't find another threat - but a single swing would kill him. eventually, my life ran out due to recursive mishras and the tar pit,
0-1
side: -3 mox, -1 stp, -1 liliana, +1 loam, +1 thrun, + 1 extirpate +1 surgical + 1 spellbomb
game 2 I am on the play, and I wastelocked him with life from the loam (wich he countered twice, but when the spell removed and I got 2 wastelands back he conceeded)
1-1
game 3 was unfinished due to time, but if I played it right I could have won. I had a spellbomb, an extirpate, 3 wastes and 2 lands. I kept, and started wasting him
I should have played the swamp first, to extirpate his undergound seas... instead he played a lot of lands. I wasted tem all, but my spellbomb and extirpate were discarded.
I resolved a thrun, and we had less than 2 minutes. He proposed a draw, but I knew if he didin't answer the thrunn I would win. I find a reliquary, he finds a liliana, and time's out. Knowing that it wouldn't end in 5 turns, we agreed on the draw.
1-1

Match 4: Lands

I was prepared to lose g1, but it didn't happen. He opens with a wooded foothills and I paly mox, thoughtseize and remove his loam. Then I play my bojuka bog and pass (if I didin't do that, he would've alreay wastelocked me).
He wastes my bog, and I play a goyf, then a reliquary, then a liliana, and he would never have the fifth mana for cracking the oblivion stone in time.
1-0

side: -1 maze, -4 hymn, +1 loam, + 1 surgical, +1 extirpate, + 1 pithing needle, + 1 spellbomb

game 2 didin't exist. He had crucible, loam, waste and ghost quarter vc a deck with 3 basics.
1-1
game 3 I was able to wastelock him myself, discard a reliquary (I knew post board he would run 4, thus I kept removals) resoled a goyf, a reliquary, and a Liliana. He cast a karmic justice, and by the time he cast a smokestack i had already lethal damage.

I ended then 3 - 0 - 1 thus winning the small tournament.
I hope my post wasn't too confusing! And thanks again for all the support :)

[ryn ball_2]

Today I won a local tournament (in a store that upholds tournaments on wednesdays, tuesdays and fridays), with a slightly different list than I postes (3 seize 1 iok, 2 vindicate and 2 pulse) and sideboard as follows:

2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 conversion
1 life from the loam
1 elspeth, knight-errand
1 thrun, the last troll
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 nihil spellbomb
1 duress
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 pithing needle

It was a small tournament (4 rounds), and i played against a gw, a sneak&show, a bug control and a lands.
Other decks present were a burn, a merfolks, a goblins, an esper stoneblade, and a bw no friends.
Shall I post a more detailed report?

And thanks for all your help and support :)


congrats!! interesting SB tutor package you have :)

[Sughayyer]

@ryn ball_2
Thanks! In fact, I'd like to add a second Life from the Loam on the side.

[Qweerios]

I'm pretty sure if I'm in the situation where I have too much removal, I've been doing my job, not I need to waste it on lands :P

-Matt

It becomes relevant when you calculate how many cards are dead against combo in the mainboard (SFM package, StP, Qasali, Pulse) and look at how much sideboard space you can dedicate to this archetype. Vindicate is something I keep against combo and that complements Thalia and Choke quite nicely.

Also, Vindicating a land is very common against dedicated control decks. Pulsing a Jace is a losing scenario (I hope I won't have to explain that one), however, Vindicating and/or Wasting your opponent off his double blue/white mana or keeping him short of his 4th mana can be much more beneficial.

[Sughayyer]

@Qweerios

I feel like this about vindicate, too, but whereas vindicate is an "all-purpose removal", pulse hits multiple targets (and this can be really relevant). That's why I started running a 2/2 split.

Also, pulse is useful against TES since if he keeps his LEDs and petals in his hand, they'll be discarded (but yeah, vindicate is far better in these matches).

I'd like to run the third vindicate (and a second life from the loam), but my side AND my MD are too tight already.

[sdematt]

Fair call.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Pulsing a Jace is a losing scenario (I hope I won't have to explain that one), however, Vindicating and/or Wasting your opponent off his double blue/white mana or keeping him short of his 4th mana can be much more beneficial.

You'll have to explain this to me.

The longer the Jace (Or any planeswalker) is on the field the worse things become (this is similar to the old standstill game). Explain to me how successfully Pulsing the Jace is losing or how Vindicate (successful or otherwise) would do any better.

Is it because Jace can only be a one of? Let's be honest here, there are some cards that, without the legend/planeswalker/world rules would be absurd. Could you imagine being kept under Nether Void + The Abyss lock? How do many decks could beat something like that assembled on the field? (Mud, Lands, Stax... maybe)

My point in short is that the only thing added to your equation between the two (Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse) is the ability to hit lands. Yes, it helps preemptively (Which you're just delaying, not stopping) but you can't always spend the mana/time to do that (Don't have the card, busy taking care of other things...). Additionally, there is no benefit to the objects you're trying to use as examples once they're in play.

Oh, Lastly, If your point was they they'd just brainstorm into other Jace(s) - Think back to those old Standstill games. Your spell typically got countered. Standstill even usually found another one, but not always. You won by making them run out of things to stop you from doing what you were doing. Standstill was even better in those situations because they got to Draw three cards instead of filter their hand. They didn't have to put anything back.

[Qweerios]

Pulsing or Vindicating a Jace is a losing scenario because you are using a card to get rid of another that has already generated card advantage AND card quality (brainstorm) without mirroring the effect with your removal spell. It is comparable to Pulsing a snapcaster after it flashed back a Brainstorm or a StP on your KotR. Idealy, you don't want your opponent to be in a position where he can lay down a Jace on an empty board because no matter what you do about it will be a losing move. Just think of any spell you could play, and add a CiP brainstorm effect to it.

There isn't many ways to make those spells fair aside from preemptive discard or counterspells. I prefer keeping my opponent off his double colored lands or his 4th land altogether while I try to build a board with enough inevitability to be able to deal with Jace in a cost-efficient way. A combat step is a much cheaper price to pay than a card and 3 mana, and Vindicate helps me accomplish that goal more effectively.

@Sughayyer

I avoid Pulse/Vindicate splits for various reasons. The main one being that we don't have much library manipulation or any ways to fetch them reliably therefore their respective differences cannot be relied on when the card is played in small numbers. In short, if you play a 2/2 split, you are basically narrowing your chances of getting the desired sub-effect of the spell in 50% of cases, which is largely suboptimal... Another reason why I don't play splits is because one has to be better than the other in more matchups than the other. The "multiple copies" clause is nice when it works in your favor, it sucks when it works against you, and is overall uncommon (discount Lingering Souls because that's just terrible). Having the option to hit lands however, is extremely common and doesn't require much else to quickly become a central element of the game. Whenever I see a missed land drop, I immediatly rethink my strategy and consider screwing my opponent's manabase with Vindicate/Waste and/or an eventual KotR.

[Mr. Safety]

1) So far, it seems very slow, especially in today's meta of very fast tempo decks. However, I believe lavafrogg/someone else is still using that plan. I'm playing a 1-of Life just for value.

2) Not really. It's quite slow and narrow, and it has fewer matchups that it's good against than before. Problem is, against Maverick, they can GSZ and Qasali it before you can play and activate it. It's still very good in the sideboard, though.

3) I haven't personally tried it, but it could be tried. 6 mana is a lot, and we're usually doing stuff with that mana anyway (Ooze, casting spells, etc.). You could definitely try it and let us know :)

-Matt

Thanks for the feedback, you were the one I was hoping to catch with the questions.

I am wary of the Loam/Crime/Cyclers because of how slow it is, especially because I think they are more pet cards than anything. I have been using it and I get, on average, 3-4 activations of Raven's Crime in a game (playing 3 Loams, 3 Crime's, and 6 cycle lands, 3/3 split between Tranquil Thicket and Barren Moor.) I like it enough to stick with it, but I'm not sure if it is optimal given an unknown metagame.

The comment about Grave Titan was because of how explosive it can be. Dropping 10 power onto the table is a two turn clock, and post Deed it seemed to be really good. I'm testing a 1-of.

I should really qualify my statements with a list. It is not a traditional list by any means, and I have hesitated to post because it isn't close to competitive lists on here. For the sake of clarity, here it is (currently):

4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Grave Titan
2x Eternal Witness

3x Life from the Loam
3x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Raven's Crime
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Crop Rotation
1x Profane Command

2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains


Thanks for responding, I hope I didn't sidetrack the thread with my noob-ish posts.

[damionblackgear]

Pulsing or Vindicating a Jace is a losing scenario because you are using a card to get rid of another that has already generated card advantage AND card quality (brainstorm) without mirroring the effect with your removal spell. It is comparable to Pulsing a snapcaster after it flashed back a Brainstorm or a StP on your KotR. Idealy, you don't want your opponent to be in a position where he can lay down a Jace on an empty board because no matter what you do about it will be a losing move. Just think of any spell you could play, and add a CiP brainstorm effect to it.

There isn't many ways to make those spells fair aside from preemptive discard or counterspells. I prefer keeping my opponent off his double colored lands or his 4th land altogether while I try to build a board with enough inevitability to be able to deal with Jace in a cost-efficient way. A combat step is a much cheaper price to pay than a card and 3 mana, and Vindicate helps me accomplish that goal more effectively.

OK. So, if I'm reading that right, it's not the attempt to kill the problem (using a card or otherwise) that's 'losing' but the fact that it even hit play. As you said,
you are using a card to get rid of another that has already generated card advantage

I just wanted to clarify that there is no action (except known-to-fail attempts, and trades for significant value loss) which is/are losing when attempting to get a threat like a planeswalker (especially Jace) off the board.

I do agree that your best fight against them (those styled threats) is to keep them off the board. I just think trying to get them off after you failed to stop them qualifies as a containment measure more than a "losing scenario". You have to stem the bleeding, or else you risk death.

[Mirrislegend]

Given that Land Tax is unbanned, the usefulness of Vindicate's ability to hit lands is greatly reduced. Given that the ability to hit lands is the biggest reason to play Vindicate over Pulse, I think Pulse is the correct call in that slot these days.

Here's what I've brewed up, in my attempt to update my deck. If you scroll back and find my list from 20th place at SCG Worcester, you'll notice the biggest flaw is lack of 1 drops or any semblance of speed. That's the main point I'm trying to address:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond

25 Land

Threat density feels really low. I'm not sure how to bring it up. Given Land Tax being unbanned, I suspect denial strategies will decline, so maybe I'll cut the 25th land for the 2nd Goyf. I miss Lingering Souls, but I just cannot fit it, especially considering it is not truly a threat. It may show up in the SB for trouncing control

[lavafrogg]

Considering land tax is borderline unplayable and does nothing to stop the strongest denial deck in the format, Canadian, I feel that any determination based on the recent unbanning is flawed.

That being said, pulse is proably the better card due to the low chance of vindicating a land with a mid range deck like rock. You are more likely to waste an opponent off of a color that deny them all mana.

Hymns are pretty bad right now, and if you want more threats you can -4 hymn +3 goyf +1 discard.

On top of that you should pick one of the "stock" lists and run with them as a started point instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend
I may be wrong, but Land Tax seems a card in wich a deck must be built around, not a card that you can sneak into an existing deck.
Also notice that Land Tax only fetches basic lands, and most tier decks run with few basics. Decks that can benefit from Land Tax are the same decks that lose to a resolving Pernicious Deed.

However, there's a thing about LD: It is not our primary strategy, otherwise we'd run sinkhole and life from the loam main deck (for recurring wastelands). Games can be won by mana denial, but more games are won by a resolving Knight of the Reliquary (again, please correct me if I'm wrong).

@ Lavafrogg
Hymn is not that bad, if you are playing the more control-like version (like mine).

[Mirrislegend]

Hymn is AMAZING. Many games I win, it's on the back of Hymn. I believe this had been discussed before, but a quick rundown:

RUG: Not easy to resolve in a timely manner, but empties their hand, leaving them stranded with what's on the board
Maverick: See RUG
Stoneblade: keeps them from running away with the game via card advantage
Combo: Slows them down so your beats can catch up

How is Hymn bad?!?

EDIT: Did you see the most recent SCG T16? Creatures everywhere. Countertop with sweepers may surge back strong. They're probably vindicate-as-LD proof already (Top into more lands), and they love Land Tax. So the answer to the current meta is primed to abuse Land Tax...

[Arsenal]

I'm running the traditional Goyf/Bob/KotR list and have been fairly happy with Hymn. Sometimes I think about going -4 Hymn -2 flex slots and +4 SFM +2 equipment, but with dedicated Control and various Combo seeing more play, I think Hymn to going to be better positioned than it was when the meta was solely Mav/RUG/Blade Control.

[lavafrogg]

It is actually pretty amusing in that the last time we were discussing hymn, I was the one that was saying hymn was amazing and others were trying to convince me otherwise. Hymn is not a bad card per say, it is just that Rock does not have a fast enough clock, or enough disruption, to make the card worth it in the long run.

Against blue decks, spell snare and spell pierce will ensure that the spell does not resolve in an reasonable amount of time. You also need to be able to hit the key spell in your opponents hand, early and consistently. Taking the GSZ, sneak attack, batterskull or jace, every time, before they have a chance to cast it wins games on its own. Hymning away nothing only to have a griselbrand dropped onto the board next turn is discouraging.

Against red decks, they are already going to have pressure on the board that you need to deal with before you can address their hand. Taking their one drop before they are played gives you time to make land drops and survive the onslaught.

Against green decks: they want you to waste turns discarding cards while they are beating face! Tarmogoyf and mongoose like cards in graveyards.

Against combo, being able to take what they need to most will give you better results that random cards. I have hymned a spiral tide player twice for lands and junk and then lost to the time spiral/high tide that was left. It is bad luck but you want to remove as much luck from your games as possible.

Hitting discard on turn 1 is the biggest reason to play discard right now. There are way too many cards with built in advantages snapcaster, jace, SFm or that don't card about discard, anything in Canadian. Legacy is less about card advantage these days and more about card quality and tempo.

If you want more discard play Lilliana. If you want good black disruption play thoughtseize/IoK/Duress

Going back to the vindicate/pulse argument: pulse is like engineered explosives that always costs three. It is a really good card and should be played if you want to beat situations where creatures/tokens are massing on the board. Vindicate is to hit anything ever be it that maze of ith that is holding your knight back or that jace that landed last turn. Always remember that pulse can be played around and that land tax is NOT a good card and will not be slipped into UW miracles because they like having lands in play to play there sweepers and library manipulation.

[Arsenal]

People running Hymn are already running 4 1cc discard spells too, so we still get all that targeted goodness, but we also get that "oops, I randomed your two lands off my turn 1 Hymn, ggpo homey". And to use the argument that Lilana = good discard, but that Hymn = bad discard because Spell Pierce hits it is just strange. Snare sees little-no play anymore as people have been steadily moving away from Goyf and SFM.

[sdematt]

I think right now, I want to be running a ton of point discard as well. I'm running 8 pieces of 1 CMC discard, and it's been pretty good. In case you were wondering about whether or not Legacy is cyclical, it is. Merfolk is back, and it's good. It's awful against Maverick, but it beats up on RUG. The Merfolk player in out Legacy event at GP Vancouver Top 4 or 8'd, I can't remember.

-Matt

[warfordium]

Merfolk is back, and it's good. It's awful against Maverick, but it beats up on RUG. The Merfolk player in out Legacy event at GP Vancouver Top 4 or 8'd, I can't remember.

-Matt

he won the whole thing!!!

[Arsenal]

sdematt -

What config do you run for 8 1cc discard? 3 IoK/3 Seize/2 Duress? I can't imagine you'd want to go higher than 3 Seize.

[paeng4983]

rock players, I just want to know, what is rock's winning percentage vs:

merfolk
RUG
gw mavs
reanimator
Bw
esper
UW control
UW blade
UR
rdw
dredge

thanks.

[Sughayyer]

Well, I play seize, hymn AND liliana. About rock not being a fast enough deck to benefit from hymn: that was really a weird remark. See, when I play BW Tokens (blossom, souls, sfm) I run 7 pinpoint discards (3 cabal therapy, 3 iok, 1 seize) because I WANT to pinpoint cards to take away. I'd rater discard a specific snare, pierce, deed, but cards like plowshares are innefective against such a deck. However, rock is one of the few decks in wich anything that a hymn hits is a great hit. Pinpoint discards are usually my first drop or used to protect a creature (before casting it) or disrupting a key piece of my opponent's hand. And liliana's function os different: she works as a recurrent removal, and keeps the opponents' hands short - and also keeps them in "kill this thing fast" mode, because no one wants a cabal curse on their side of the table.

About merfolks, rock decks are merfolk's natural predators - i remember losing only once to a merfolk playing rock (of course this was when I used maindeck pernicious deed). Nevertheless it shouldn't be a very difficult match.

About counterbalalnce - land tax is not a problem,and if the CB player is relying on that card, he is making his lock even slower than it is. Usually a resolving deed and discards can break his strategy (but the match is not easy, you have to play around his lock if he succeeded to cast CB + top)

[damionblackgear]

rock players, I just want to know, what is rock's winning percentage...

Depends on the build. The different packages adjust the matches. Also, as with any match, the pilot must also be taken into consideration. My view (using my build) of the match-ups I listed below. Added some as I feel we tend to be pretty good against those.

merfolk - 70;30
RUG - 55;45
gw mavs - 60;40
reanimator - 70;30 (pre Grislebrand. Haven't played since.)
Bw - 60;40
esper - 55;45 (Blade?)
UW control - 35;65
UW blade - 60;40
UR - 45;55
rdw - 35;65
dredge - 45;55 (preboard, reverse postboard)

TES/AnT - 30;70
Belcher - 20;80
Goblins - 55;45
Sneak Show - 50;50 (depends on disruption from both sides)
Lands - 70;30
MUD - 70;30
Bant - 50;50 (Based on build)
Elves - 35;65

So, why doesn't everyone play the deck (any build) if the odds are so good against most things? A couple of reasons:

1) It's not blue. Pro's have been pushing Blue and talking about how if you don't play blue you're not good.
2) It's hard to play. The deck doesn't recover well if you start down the wrong line(s).
3) There are tons of other decks.
a) You have to be very well versed in the format and identify quickly what you're playing in order to pick the correct lines/keeps.
b) People want to try other decks.

[lavafrogg]

The matchups and win percentages all vary on the list you play. A tuned rock list can beat any deck the only problem is that no one knows what the best rock list looks like.

Without a solid core of cards decklists vary from 1-2 card differences to 10-20 card differences. How much discard, how much removal, threat density, tutor packages. The only thing we really know is that we play knight, confidant, swords and discard( for the most part that is agreed on). From there you can look like a black splash maverick to a aggro nicfit.

Whatever you choose will alter your numbers significantly.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry for the double post but my phone is being dumb....

After my last post I realized that we should most likely build a core for the deck based on popular deck choices and card selection. If we can all get behind a list we should be able to grow a player base. I would suggest starting with sdematts list and going from there.

His most current list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Inquistion of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

--BOARD--
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
1 Perish (6 cards against Maverick seems good)
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Slots (Extirpate, Duress, Diabolic Edict, etc.)

The list is strong and has some intricacies that are only seen by playing and refining rock lists. He does not play 2cc discard or any acceleration outside of GSZ for zero. He instead opts to play the longer game with library manipulation and the loam/garruk split.

That being said, matt only plays seven real threats(plus GSZ) and has a hard time with maverick lists that can go toe to toe with his big dudes and then flood the board afterwards. He used pointed discard to take whatever is most valuable at various stages of the game and hope to land a library/garruk/loam to put himself over the top when the dust settles.

He depends on removal to keep faster decks at bay with sweepers after the board, don't forget his old "kill everything" plan from a few months ago.

From this list you have to ask yourself the popular questions: more GSZ heavy like qwerrios? more SFM like daimonblackgear? Tarmogoyf as a 4 of? The only thing in stone in my eyes is:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Knight of the Reliquary

and thats where we all stop playing nice.

Just for clarification: I swear by the loam/mox/Lilliana combination to grind out games and fix mana.

[Thorondor]

if you want to build a core list, you need to add some more cards, and remove fancy choices.
I would suggest:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3-4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

3-4 Knight of the Reliquary
1-4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1-2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Qasali Pridemage
0-3 Stoneforge Mystic
0-1 Birds of Paradise

2-3 Inquistion of Kozilek
2-4 Thoughtseize
0-4 Hymn to Tourach

2-4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1-3 Maelstrom Pulse
0-2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Top
1-2 Sylvan Library

0-1 Garruk Relentless
0-1 Life from the Loam
0-2 Liliana

0-3 Mox Diamond
0-1 Batterskull
0-2 Umezawa Jitte


there are many choices, one thing I like about this deck. :-)
Kind of hard to settle for one real core deck.

[ryn ball_2]

hmmm true-->Kind of hard to settle for one real core deck.
But we can approximate the list just like Thorondor's breakdown.

Being 'core cards' i agree to lavafrogg's list
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares

Atm i'm thinking of 3 archetypes of rock that exist

1) controlish rock--something like brad nelson's list
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf, 4 totsiz, 4 hymn, 4 vindicate, 4 stp, 1-2 deeds, 3 SDT

2) aggro rock
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, some GSZ'able creatures, 2-3 sfm, 4 discards, 4 stp, 2-3 equipments, 2-3 vindi/pulse effect

3) aggro-control rock--i will define this as a mixture of controlish list and aggro list but the sfm package is drop and some GSZ'able creatures retained and maybe dedicated to board control since MD deed
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, 3-4 goyf, 1-2 ooze and some 1-off GSZ'able creatures along side 6-8 discards (4 totsiz+4 hymn or 3 totsiz+3 IOK) 2-3 vindicate/pulse effect, 4 stp, 1-2 deeds

This archetypes are only my perspective about current existing rock.
And atm the run a aggro-control build that i havnt test in some tourneys but i started from a controlish list and made some tops in our local stores.

Feel free to share your thoughts :)

[Sughayyer]

The thing is, The Rock is one of the largest archetypes, and you can tune it more towards control or aggro. I think that's exacty the beauty of the deck.

I was thinking... nobody uses that "Dark Horizon" list anymore? With hymn and gerrard's veredict, etc? could that list see play - maybe adding the fourth mox, to ensure all the nice 2-drops DO happen on turn 1?

[ryn ball_2]

The thing is, The Rock is one of the largest archetypes, and you can tune it more towards control or aggro. I think that's exacty the beauty of the deck.

I was thinking... nobody uses that "Dark Horizon" list anymore? With hymn and gerrard's veredict, etc? could that list see play - maybe adding the fourth mox, to ensure all the nice 2-drops DO happen on turn 1?

yeah i term this junk deck as dark horizon when i started playing this archetype using a brad nelson's list, i will play a dark horizon if our local meta is infested with combo decks anyways about the 4th mox d, i rather stick to 3 copies in a deck there are cases that 4 moxes in a deck can kill your first 7 opening hand cards maybe having 1-2 lands etc. 3 copies is still a good number to ensure you can probably get it in an opening hand.

[lavafrogg]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

[paeng4983]

@ damionblackgear
Thanks for the stats man. I eying the rock as my next choice for an upcoming legacy here. I felt like the deck has the solutions in all possible situation.

I think I am in the same page as any rock player right now, "what kind of rock will I bring to the tournament?"

As of the moment, I told byron (ryn ball) that im going without GSZ and SFM packages.
Here's what my deck looks like as of the moment:

4 verdant
4 marsh
4 bayou
4 scrub
3 wasteland
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 swamp
1 plains

3 thoughtseize
3 duress
3 hymn
3 surgical / extirpate

2 mox d
2 s.d. top

4 STP
2 deeds
2 pulse

4 tarmo
4 KOTR
4 dark confidant


as for the SB im not yet decided on what to have.
any reaction from you guys?
^_^

[AggroSteve]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

where is the "like-button" ? ^^

anyway, i did not post for a while because of exams, but the late discussion here forces me to post even if i got not much time, specially the thing about the dark-horizons list

in fact i am using a somewhat dark-horizon list for a while now and it works just fine, but i have to admit i havent been to any events for quite a while because of university.
my "dark-horizons-list" is a bit different to brad nelsons from a year or something likely ago, but works allmost the same. the main differences would be the following

gerrards verdict = life from the loam
using 4 mox diamonds
using only 2 divining tops (even if i wanted to play more)
using a 2/2 split between vindicate and EE (would love another vindicate but got no free slots)
and using 2 quasali pridemages as aditional versatile threats (could also be terravore, tombstalker or whatever, maybe tombstalker would play nicely with loam...)
..... i would love to fit in 1 or maybe 2 lilianas in the list but i would not know what to cut (depending on the way i want to go: cutting pridemage -> more controllish, cutting EE or something else maybe -> aggro-controllish; and so on.....)

i like the list, and the occasional 1st turn hymn i still freaking awesome, even if lately i have been thinking more and more of turning them into pinpoint discard.

IMO we should not talk about archetypes, we should as we previously did, talk aboult viable packages, tutor packages and other packages, and viable card-choices for each package and accelleration

to list some i have in mind right now:

SFM + 2-3 Equipments
GSZ + Situational very strong creatures
Loam + Liliana (+ Mox Diamond)

Hexmage + Dephts (a bit older, do not know if its still viable)
.......
.......

hymn IMO is not a bad card. Like every other card is has its good moments and its bad moments. I think using hymn at the moment would depend on which package you use.
Using the loam-liliana package, i would recommend using hymns for the occasional blowout turn 1, using one of the other 2 mainly used packages i would recommend 6 to 8 targeted discard-spells

i do not agree with ryn ball_2 though, that a list using hymn would be controllish, and Stoneforgepackage more aggressive, i think its the other way around because lists using hymn will be focused more on tempo then other lists, thus forcing them to be more aggressive, and the SFM tutor package gives more options to stay longer in the game/controll the game in a more versatile matter.

thats all of my thoughts for now^^, hope you enjoyed this long post :tongue:

[Sughayyer]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

Yeah, well. The Rock IS an archetype after all. See, many decks fit into this archetype -traditional BG Rock, BGW Junk, BGW Dark Horizons. It is like "UW Control archetype" - we have UW Stoneblade, UW Counterbalance, UW Landstill, etc. All of them are UW Control, but they are all different.

We have too many options - some like stoneforge, others play 8 pointed discards, some shun mox in favor of maindeck pernicious deeds. Different metas, different styles of play, different decks. Some people stick to builds that just doesn't work anymore, and get dissatisfyed.

I am actually very happy with my build, and it is getting me results. So I'm going to stick with it for a while. Damionblackgear's list is giving him results. He plays that list. sdematt's build works for him. 3 different decks, 1 same archetype.

[Sughayyer]

I was going to talk about the difference among the various decks but 1) I do not feel qualified for that and 2) My computer is not helping me today.

But, we can post different lists (lists that are bringing results) and talk about the differences, and the reason why we choose the cards.

You agree?

My list:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
2 vindicate
2 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares

3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond

1 sylvan library

3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

2 liliana of the veil

lands:
4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

side:

2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 nihil spellbomb
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 elspeth, knight-errand
1 thrun, the last troll
1 life from the loam
1 pithing needle

needle saved my life once, but I'm considering replacing it with a second life from the loam.

I played that list last week and won the tournament (report in previous pages).

[Qweerios]

i do not agree with ryn ball_2 though, that a list using hymn would be controllish, and Stoneforgepackage more aggressive, i think its the other way around because lists using hymn will be focused more on tempo then other lists, thus forcing them to be more aggressive, and the SFM tutor package gives more options to stay longer in the game/controll the game in a more versatile matter.

I agree with you on that. Somehow a lot of people are under the impression that Hymn is a control card because it is a discard spell, or that SFM is a tempo card because it is a creature when in fact it's the opposite.

[damionblackgear]

3-1'd last night using the Madison 75 (I'm lazy and don't feel like looking for the changes yet). Played Reanimator (2-0), Merfolk (2-0), Food Chain (0-2), and UR (2-1).

Still have my $20 for Reanimator. Merfolk isn't bad at all. Shouldn't have won the UR match. Game 3 he drew 3-5 lands in a row where any creature/burn would've done it. He then proceeded to punt by not remembering Dryad Arbor could be fetched. The food chain match was my fault game 1. I had pridemage on the field and swung it to death to allowing him to combo. Game 2 he went off the turn before I would've won.

I'm not worried about that match but would like to stress the importance of discard there. It's definitely a match that hymn would be better against.

[militiaman89]

So i think rock is very well positioned to make a come back in legacy right now. I took the list from eli kassis from last year and made some tweaks. I really would like opinions on stoneforge if he should be there or not and swithing him out for MoM would be better?
Lands
1 [R] Savannah
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Swamp (3)
1 [M10] Plains (3)
1 [OD] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

[lavafrogg]

Staying with the topic of the official list, I feel that Stoneforge Mystic is not a card that rock decks want to play and tarmogoyf and green sun's zenith are. We want to be tapping out on our turn for powerful threats and discard and cannot sit back on counter magic to activate the mystic(or protect it for that matter) Maverick can play the mystic due to the high creature count and the need to run mother of runes.

That being said, Tarmogoyf should be a 4 of in any rock list due to its strong presence in any aggro matchup like maverick or rug. He is also a must answer threat against control making him good in any matchup you play(hello combo!).

I still feel he is the strongest creature in the game and any deck that can play him should.

New Agreed On cards:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Teeg
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

Still Up for Debate: Discards Suite, Draw/Manipulation, Sweeper/Removal, Planeswalker, Recursion

[Arsenal]

I don't quite understand why people have slowly moved away from a 4/5 for 1G. He's the best at what he does for his cost; turn sideways and beat face. I've always been a 4-Goyf player and don't foresee myself opting not to run him unless I have a very, very good reason not to.

[TerribleTim68]

I don't quite understand why people have slowly moved away from a 4/5 for 1G. He's the best at what he does for his cost; turn sideways and beat face. I've always been a 4-Goyf player and don't foresee myself opting not to run him unless I have a very, very good reason not to.

For me it's the fact that he costs at least $100 each and I don't own any. I think that effects a lot of people's decisions on why they don't run him. :wink:

[Arsenal]

When we're talking about optimal/competitive builds, cost/price shouldn't be a factor. That's like saying, "whelp, Underground Seas cost $xxxxx...., so I'll run Darkslick Shores instead when I pilot Reanimator".

[TerribleTim68]

Don't get me wrong, I'd run him over anything else, period. But I can't, so I play a different deck. :wink:

[damionblackgear]

On Goyf - it's not as good as it use to be. The format is dropping more dangerous Fatties, Playing 30 creatures in one turn, Burning, and giving protection to it's threats/defense. Goyf doesn't deal with these things very well. It was, and still is, good against the more streamlined older decks (Looking at you Canadian Thresh) but the newer ones make it appear pretty mediocre. I like Goyf (don't get me wrong, I really do) but It's not worth as much in a 75 as it use to be.


When we're talking about optimal/competitive builds, cost/price shouldn't be a factor. That's like saying, "whelp, Underground Seas cost $xxxxx...., so I'll run Darkslick Shores instead when I pilot Reanimator".
Sending you a pm on why you're tagged in this Arsenal.

[sdematt]

Terrible Tim, I notice you're from the Northwest. Are you coming to SCG Seattle this weekend?

Also, I'll be going to SCG Seattle this weekend. I'll be representing with Junk this time (finally).

Here's to watching me crush face in a feature match. :cool:

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Mr blackgear, I disagree with your view of tarmogoyf. A quick goyf is the most efficient way to pressure a combo deck that wants to burning wish or dump 30 creatures into play. You need to have disruption backed by a clock to bar any chance at winning against these non interactive decks.

Turn one discard, turn two goyf, turn three teeg is about as good as you can do against combo. Waiting to drop and grow a knight is just going to let them set up even more.

[damionblackgear]

Mr blackgear, I disagree with your view of tarmogoyf. A quick goyf is the most efficient way to pressure a combo deck that wants to burning wish or dump 30 creatures into play. You need to have disruption backed by a clock to bar any chance at winning against these non interactive decks.

Turn one discard, turn two goyf, turn three teeg is about as good as you can do against combo. Waiting to drop and grow a knight is just going to let them set up even more.

I was actually thinking of Elves when I was writing that. Against the decks that want to Burning Wish to into critters, We're too slow as it is (they race pure aggro decks). I'd rather have a Thalia or the like compared to a Goyf. If I had to have a beater, I'd actually rather have Stoneforge. You can at least make an attempt to Batterskull yourself back into the game after the storm passes (no pun intended).

I'd agree that a quick Goyf is your best bet against combo except Thalia exists. She's a slower clock than Goyf but she also slows them and you're more concerned with gaining the time than anything else. We're quick on an aggro start but they're faster.

*For Elves, you just want to kill their elves so both creatures are pretty bad as The Insect laughs at either's real use, holding Jitte.

[lavafrogg]

Elves is a glass canon and as long as anyone hates it out they won't win. Game one can be solved with the same scenario as I used last time.

T1 discard
T2 goyf
T3 GSZ to goyf

Then depending on what else you have you can take a victory from combos greedy hands. Discard+swords+wasteland+beats is pretty hard for elves to beat.

Maverick can get away without goyf due to teeg and main board hatebears, which we don't run. They also will drop a creature turns 1,2,3,4 and the damage adds up.

[Mirrislegend]

Goyf only does ONE thing, that nothing else does better. He provides power relative to speed. Not max power over all, not max speed, and obviously no utility or long game threat. Just power relative to speed.

This shifts his relevance (in this deck) greatly. He's good against decks that play only the most efficient creatures, regardless of raw power (RUG). He's good where speed is the single most important thing (some combo decks). In every other situation, I'd rather have Stoneforge or KotR. That's why I always trim Goyf.

btw lavafrogg, that is NOT how you beat elves. If you seriously think that, you haven't played against it in ages. Across the table, I watched it go off turn 2, I watched it go off through tons of disruption, I watched it go off without a hitch. That deck is not to be underestimated. Luckily, my Mav hate (Zealous Persecution) hits Elves hard.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry for any misconception on my scenarios. I was refering to game one with minimal prior knowlege about the deck you were playing against. After board you can bring in any amount of hate to interact with any deck, especially glass cannons.

Goyf allows you to interact with your opponent to the fullest for what he requires in mana and deck space.

[damionblackgear]

Elves is a glass canon and as long as anyone hates it out they won't win. Game one can be solved with the same scenario as I used last time.

T1 discard
T2 goyf
T3 GSZ to goyf

Then depending on what else you have you can take a victory from combos greedy hands. Discard+swords+wasteland+beats is pretty hard for elves to beat.

Maverick can get away without goyf due to teeg and main board hatebears, which we don't run. They also will drop a creature turns 1,2,3,4 and the damage adds up.

I'm afraid we're differing more and more as this conversation goes on. Elves may be a glass canon (a plexiglas cannon!) but it's still a bad matchup for us (it's definitely in their favor). Under few circumstances is discard, Goyf, Goyf enough to win (their draw must have been really bad). They can (and typically do) win on turn 3 before that second Goyf would have become active.

I also find very rare instances where Wasteland actually become relevant. Most of the time I see it, the elf player is 'going off' and it's a Bust of random mana to allow them to continue. They may Crop Rotate for another 1 later. Even then, Wasteland, is not the highest priority since I probably have 2 or 3 lands in play.

I also haven't seem a Maverick with Teeg in the main in a long time. Maybe it's just me and the tournaments I play in (I admit I try to stick to 6+ rounder's at this point for family reasons). I do see Thalia who is justifiable based on the fact that the deck is almost all creatures in a format of spells. Occasionally, I'll see Aven Mind Censor but that's not all that often (Also, not a bear).

Lastly, we do work. We don't need the hatebears in the main. Proof? I won a SCG (a.k.a. large FNM) a little over a month ago with the deck using a single Goyf meant as a Large body to get with GSZ@2. My only hatebears (Teeg and Thalia) were in the board. I dodged Combo all day but I still don't have many issues with the 'new' combo (non-storm combo - I'm putting Elves in the storm category)

-Edit- I take too long to type things out. You responded already.

[Sughayyer]

I made 3-1 today: Burn 2-1, Burn 2-0, GW 0-2 (first game out of luck and second one out of my own stupidity) and merfolks 2-0.

I naver had such an easy match against burn with most of my other builds. :D
decks present were: TES, Merfolks, Burn (x2), GW, Spiral Tide, BW Nofriends, BW Stax

[f|i[p]]

@Sughayyer
Congratulations on the 3-1... as well as your 2-0 vs burn...
-----------

Agreed!

Combo elf match up has always been difficult for me... And I have been playing rock type decks for quite a long time...and I still see it as a bad batch up... discard and stp may buy you a turn, sometimes it doesn't. but if does buy you some time, you'd usually have to deed them away.. but I really see this a bad match up, and it gets worse post board as the local combo elf player here brings in 4 leylines in.

Ethersworn cannonist might slow them a bit for you to win..

but I never saw the scenario of discard, goyf , then gsz to goyf ...then win...I also don't understand wasteland....

But yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate combo elves, when they use rock type decks...or they just don't have experience vs combo elves at all (or perhaps a good combo elves player)...

[lavafrogg]

Lol, I'm not sure how we got around to talking about exclusively elves but Whateves. We have sideboards for combo decks like elves to help us in the match. My point is that before board goyf gives you the best chance to steal a game from them and post board it gives them less time to recover from our hosers.

With the alternatives being SFM or more ooze, tarmogoyf fills more holes in the deck in problem matchups. He provides a faster clock and earlier on board interaction. For mid to late game antics we don't need SFM because we run the mini planeswalker(knight) and should be packing some real walkers of our own.

It is my opinion that rock is a mid range deck, goyf helps the aggo plan against control decks and the control plan against aggro decks.

Focusing on elves: it is a bad matchup. Just like other storm/fast combo decks. My point is goyf provides speed to steal game ones from these decks. It increases win percentages across the board with no downside. Against maverick the only thing bigger is a knight and you also play those.

With my discard/goyf/goyf scenario: those are five cards from your hand against an elves deck. You will have 4-5 more cards available to interact with them and hopefully you can sneak a win with some timely discard, swords, vindicate/pulse or wastelands(on an exposed gaes cradle). With goyfs beating in they will have to start blocking or go off. It's a better plan than just losing game one.

Edit: you can also waste a GSZ for zero dryad arbor.

Mirri- what the hell can anyone do against elves if they go off on turn two? Shit happens. And I am also not taking out kotr so you don't have to compare goyf to knight. If anything compare knight to SFM in that they both take over the mid to late game and do next to nothing on the early turns or when the best deck in the format is having its way with you(rug can't deal with a resolved goyf, knight cost 3 and can be wastelanded off the correct colors, stifled off three lands or dazed when you finally get there). What is your plan against elves game one? Lose? Get a jitte active by turn four only to have then wish/zenith for a natralise on legs?

P.s. want a good sweeper? Play infest. It is such a house against elves/tribal and maverick. We are also pretty much the only deck that can play it.

[Thorondor]

concerning goyf: i rather play first turn confi/stoneforge with mox diamond and then knight/lilli/maelstrom pulse... than first turn goyf into something....

I enjoy diamondblackgears list, since the dumb plan: "playing a big creature and go attack" is kind of boring. I love things that do something beside attacking.


concerning elves: at the moment I consider one darkblast (as fifth removal) main against elves and maverick. It also has synergy with library/sdt.

[Sughayyer]

I think in all that talk we lost the focus. It all started with Goyf/no Goyf discussion, and it turned in "beating elves 101" (ok terrible joke).

On the thing about elves/combo: most of rock players now shun hymn to tourach, but it is not only a great tempo card, it is also a powerful disruption tool. It can wreck combo's hands. (But, yes, againt elves I board it out, since I have more efficient solutions against them).

About goyf, it was already explained here: if you run the "toolbox" version of junk, you don't need it - you can fetch functional creatures, and leave the beating to other creatures you might have (Ooze, KoTR). But if you run a more traditional build, goyf is way better sicne it performs various roles.

On a different issue: What I'm saying now may be utter stupidity, but wasn't Rock real strenght it's simplicity? Wreck hand, play big fat guy, and you have all the removal backing it up for you? After trying various lists, I returned to that premise (as I posted twice) and it turns out that it's the build that gives me more results.

Hope I'm helping and not just being an annoyance :)

[sdematt]

Well, it depends. If you have a build that does the plan of "hand disruption, big guys, beat face, remove things" then yes, you'll put up some good results.

I plan on playing this at SCG Seattle:

3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress (Sneak and Show, etc.)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life form the Loam

--BOARD--

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Perish
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements

I've moved EE to the board in favour of the Duress for more disruption. Merfolk might make a small comeback, so I've kept EE in the 75 as well, same as Deed. I've opted for Perish instead of Virtue in case of Elves, and a whopping 5 pieces of grave-hate since a) 43 Lands won the last SCG event, b) Reanimator is the deck positioned to beat Sneak and Show.

I've briefly considered cutting 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 something for the 2 EE in the main, opening 2-3 slots in the board for more combo hate. Thoughts?

Timely is for the UR Burn/ RUG Delver matches, and I've got 6 slots against Maverick.

Thoughts? Pieces of tech I'm missing?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Well, it depends. If you have a build that does the plan of "hand disruption, big guys, beat face, remove things" then yes, you'll put up some good results.

I plan on playing this at SCG Seattle:

3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress (Sneak and Show, etc.)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life form the Loam

--BOARD--

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Perish
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements

I've moved EE to the board in favour of the Duress for more disruption. Merfolk might make a small comeback, so I've kept EE in the 75 as well, same as Deed. I've opted for Perish instead of Virtue in case of Elves, and a whopping 5 pieces of grave-hate since a) 43 Lands won the last SCG event, b) Reanimator is the deck positioned to beat Sneak and Show.

I've briefly considered cutting 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 something for the 2 EE in the main, opening 2-3 slots in the board for more combo hate. Thoughts?

Timely is for the UR Burn/ RUG Delver matches, and I've got 6 slots against Maverick.

Thoughts? Pieces of tech I'm missing?

-Matt

I'm a big fan of your ability to be aggro and apply pressure while keeping fair control of the board. Your SB confuses the heck outta me though. How do you beat Sneak and Show? How do you beat combo? I believe SBs be shoring up bad MUs, instead of just carrying flex slots

[Thorondor]

my tech would be:
-2 Duress, add some discard in SB
-1 GSZ or -1 Loam

+3 Mox Diamond ;-)

against combo he has 8 1cc discard main and after SB surgical/extirpate and a hopefully kind of fast clock, this must be enough or game over.

But the list looks weak against U/R delver burn or RUG or just BURN.

dunno, have you tested these matchups and how did they go for u?

[damionblackgear]

I'm out of the Elves conversation. It's looping in circles now.

Matt, I would actually cut a GSZ from your list (Regarding EE). You have more targets than I do but, only 2 real singles (Arbor and Pridemage). I would theorize that there is enough consistency from your multiples to warrant 2 GSZ... possibly even 1 but I wouldn't advise that without a good testing session). You also have more Library manipulation (second Sylvan).

I would also switch Dread to Zealous Persecution as it's useful in more match-ups and also benefits you offensively as well. It's still strong against the Maverick match and you typically only need one shot to clear some of the clutter against them.

Lastly, Have you given any thought to Fight Bear (Ulvenwald Tracker)? Matched with your Garruck it gives you a stream of either 2/2's to fight with (pseudo Lavamancer) or deathtouch 1/1's (Kills anything). Just a thought, I don't know if it's too cute but, I've found that it's great vs Aggro (Especially Merfolk) and Mid-Range.

[lavafrogg]

Lol, elves discussion was awesome but it all started with the debate about tarmogoyf being a 3-4 of instead of a 0-1 of.

Fight bear is awesome! I don't know how I have never seen that card before but I feel like it is a must have for GSZ lists as a 1 of.

I actually think Matt should increase his reliance on GSZ in his list and squeeze some tutor targets into his board, like fight bear. "multiple" copies of teeg, witness, ooze or tracker are a boon for any deck, especially rock. GSZ might be the strongest green spell for the near future, we should play it.

As for the toolbox version of rock, it still needs goyf, if you remember the non combo versions of survival: they just fetched and played more goyfs.... It is effective.

New question: why is volrath's stronghold left out of everyone's list? Regrowing beaters and pridemages every turn seems pretty win to me.

[Arsenal]

If you're going to be a GSZ deck, isn't Maverick just better at that point? More consistent manabase, you can run double green and double white stuff if you really want without worrying about mana considerations, you still get to run 4x Wasteland, etc...

[lavafrogg]

Arsenal- some maverick lists are dropping GSZ and running more hate bears and fauna shaman to combat the rise of combo. Due to our discard, we dot have to rely on other hatebears to give us a chance against combo. Also, with goyf, you can run a -x/-x sweeper and the only cards you have to worry about are knights, the single ooze they run, and equipment. It still is a lot but it helps.

At that point it almost becomes and ooze war and with discard + GSZ you have a chance to win!

[Arsenal]

If Maverick is moving away from GSZ, then I think they're making a huge mistake as GSZ gives Maverick consistency and answers (1-ofs to deal with various situations) that Green has only dreamed of prior to the printing of GSZ. Take away GSZ and Maverick is just a smattering of Green/White good creatures; GSZ is the glue that holds that deck together, imo.

[Mirrislegend]

For reference, discard + Extirpate effects does not beat non-storm combo.

I have 2 Teeg in my SB, with 3 GSZ MD, and 4 Surgical in my SB, and I still feel unprepared for combo sometimes. I feel sdematt's list is WAY lacking in that arena

[lavafrogg]

Matt's metagame has always been less combo more maverick(and by more I mean all) and he devotes his sideboard accordingly.

[Mirrislegend]

Good to know! In that case, I cannot recommend Zealous Persecution highly enough. It becomes a matter of "Do I nail him for a very solid 2-for-1 that could ruin him, or do I take a risk and wait a turn for the possibility of a blowout 3-for-1?" And if drawn late game, it just shatters stalemates against them

[lavafrogg]

My problem with zealous is that it is incredibly narrow for what it does. It has applications against maverick and elves but do you bring it in against gobbos? I would prefer to use a stronger board sweeper like infest or deed. I agree that moms are the problem in the matchup but even EE is a better option to kill moms and rangers imo

I think perish or virtues rain is a stronger choice as a maverick hoser. They are not going to keep you from reaching the mana to play them so you might as well play stronger cards.

[Mr. Safety]

P.s. want a good sweeper? Play infest. It is such a house against elves/tribal and maverick. We are also pretty much the only deck that can play it.

If you're serious about that, I'm listening. I've been thinking of using Infest in legacy but I had always stood by Deeds and Explosives...if this is indeed valid tech, I will be testing it out.

[lavafrogg]

Tribal hates infest. Period. It has the added bonus of wrecking maverick and only killing your confidants( which are usually in the graveyard anyways).

You have to have a heavier black commitment for the casting cost though.

[damionblackgear]

My problem with zealous is that it is incredibly narrow for what it does. It has applications against maverick and elves but do you bring it in against gobbos?

Yup. There are a lot of Gobos that are x/1s: Goblin Lackey, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Matron, Goblin Token (Seige Gang Commander), Tin Street Hooligan...

It's not that it's limited to killing x/1's but that it's also able to make your bird of paradise able to kill a natural X/2. Barring Knight, Goose, Goyf and a pumped Ooze, many decks don't play larger creatures unless they're putting something MUCH larger into play.

It's also one-sided and an instant.

[sdematt]

Fair calls, champs.

I like the Fight Bear, but would you run it main or side? Would you still cut a GSZ and add the tutor target?

If you guys had to re-tool my sideboard for a SCG Open, what would YOU make it? Teeg certainly doesn't do anything against Sneak and Show, since Show gets under Teeg.

I haven't tested Ur Burn much yet, but I know it's probably not super favourable. That's what I'm hoping the Timely's end up doing for me.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Yup. There are a lot of Gobos that are x/1s: Goblin Lackey, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Matron, Goblin Token (Seige Gang Commander), Tin Street Hooligan...

It's not that it's limited to killing x/1's but that it's also able to make your bird of paradise able to kill a natural X/2. Barring Knight, Goose, Goyf and a pumped Ooze, many decks don't play larger creatures unless they're putting something MUCH larger into play.

It's also one-sided and an instant.

Goblins it doesn't kill: goblin ringleader, goblin warchief, goblin piledriver, any goblin with a chieftain out, siege gang commander. Lackey after turn one doesn't count(see wasteland/being on the draw)

Goblins infest kills: all of them.
Elves infest kills: all of them
Merfolk infest kills: all of them( barring rediculous lord numbers)
Maverick creatures infest kills: everything except knight and grown oozes/creatures equipped with sword of x/y.

Also: kills all the same creatures zealous does plus all x/2's.

Zealous is not a bad card but I think it is too narrow barring extreme metagames(see sdematts sideboard)

[sdematt]

So is something like this more useful/broad?

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Perish
2 Choke
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution/Dread of Night/Maverick hate

Better? I realize I'm stone cold losing to Burn, but, whatever. Burn doesn't race Iona well.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Merfolk infest kills: all of them( barring rediculous lord numbers)


actually, 2 lords is all merfolks need (since the lords are 2/2 by their own and pump each other).

I need your help now... you see, I like zealous A LOT, as well as infest, but given my choice of cards to run, do you think that is wise to take away the deeds from the side and add those? Because deed fills in many roles - it's great against tribal, affinity, tokens, mud (the mana artifacts, mox, worker, wurmcoil tokens, staff), i like it. Because it is kinda slow, sometimes I think about dropping it, but then I'll have to redesign the whole sideboard....

[damionblackgear]

Goblins it doesn't kill: goblin ringleader, goblin warchief, goblin piledriver, any goblin with a chieftain out, siege gang commander. Lackey after turn one doesn't count(see wasteland/being on the draw)

Goblins infest kills: all of them.
Elves infest kills: all of them
Merfolk infest kills: all of them( barring rediculous lord numbers)
Maverick creatures infest kills: everything except knight and grown oozes/creatures equipped with sword of x/y.

Also: kills all the same creatures zealous does plus all x/2's.

Zealous is not a bad card but I think it is too narrow barring extreme metagames(see sdematts sideboard)

Truth, Any pump lord does negate the spell. I'm not disagreeing with you on anything on these spells. We can't get the spell we both want (one-sided infest for less than 2cc). Instead, the choice is between the instant that doesn't kill as much, and the sorcery that kills everything (including you).

-Edit-

Matt, I'd play the Tracker in the board. It's not good vs enough of the format that there isn't really a place for it main. Pretty much any aggressive deck would be a good place for it to come in against.

If I had to retool your sideboard, I would cut 1-2 pieces of Graveyard hate and put 1 timely back into it and Lili's in the other slots. I think Surgical is fine and you have enough hate in the main to fight the graveyard decks (you'll be slowing them down games 2 and 3).

[lavafrogg]

I'm all aboard the GSZ train right now to the point I would say to drop a library or a top and go up to 4 to ensure you draw them early and often. You already run the goyfs to power out I would drop an ooze and add the tracker main to give you tutorable removal against all of the random aggro that flocks to larger tourneys.

That being said, I think you need to expect a surge of elves players due to the last SCG with elves placing twice. Goblins has also been making a comeback as of late so swarm aggro is on the rise seeing how Merfolk Has also been rising in popularity. Engineered plauge is starting to look more and more appealing the better humans get as a tribe:/

Infest or black suns zenith could be correct calls as would bringing back the red splash for blasts/grudges and specificly pyroclasm.

For graveyard strategies I feel crypt is the stronger card to get you from start of game to an active ooze and it doesn't force you to fetch non green sources so you can get multiple activations against dredge(they can power through). It gives you a way to nuke opposing knights as well( more maverick hate to bring in over discard on the draw).

Before I get to sneak and show I will say that uw miracle is making a splash so you cannot be cold to counterbalances at all. You should have 4 GSZ to play around balances and re find your creatures but grips might be needed if you get a feeling for the could be popular land tax powered Quinn deck that has been under the radar.

Surgical extraction/extirpate have uses outside of recursion in the combo/miracle/sneak matchups when paired with discard, seems good.

I feel that burn is a good deck to be cold against right now as there are other budget decks that are on the up and up right now.

Finally, sneak and show. The best card I have found for The sneak and show matchup: smallpox is a beating against them but is mostly unplayable in other matchups. Hitting their land, hand and life total attacks them on all fronts. If you have a huge scary feeling that sneak show will be present than it might be needed but I think the deck is on the decline as reanimator is the better gristlebrand deck and only runs show and tell from the board. You can switch you planeswalker to Lilliana or side in edicts to combat reanimator.

So IMO: maindeck: -1 top -1 ooze +1 tracker +1 GSZ

And I would run a sideboard of:
2 krosan grip
2 zealous persecution/infest
1 teeg
2 EE
1 virtues rain/deed
3 todmod's crypt
3 surgical extraction

Hope any of this helps or sheds another opinion on the subject.

[damionblackgear]

New question: why is volrath's stronghold left out of everyone's list? Regrowing beaters and pridemages every turn seems pretty win to me.

I didn't see a response to this question from last page. I cut it (again) when the format sped up and Ooze became a bigger part of it. I find that the Utility Wasteland is more useful now (since that's the slot it fills in my 75). I also no longer need a recurring creature but I agree, the pridemage was sweat. There was a point where I also had Sword of Light and Shadow (SoLS) and Eternal Witness (E.wit) alongside the stronghold. All have been lost (again) over time.

*Tags and shorthand are for the newer people who may not know them. We've got a lot of new names popping up and that makes me happy.

[sdematt]

No one is running Choke against UW Miracles/RUG?

-MAtt

[Sughayyer]

I'd like to run Choke. Seems great! I will try it next week.

[damionblackgear]

No one is running Choke against UW Miracles/RUG?

-MAtt

I still haven't cut choke. I've posted my current board below.

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Choke
2 Dismember
1 Timely Reinforcements

[sdematt]

I'm also wondering if there's any point to running Grip. Is there anything right now we NEED to Grip?

-Matt

[Qweerios]

I've had great results with Consuming Vapors as a sideboard card. It isn't exactly a sweeper but it always leaves you with more than what you paid for. I really like it against RUG and UR Delver. It combines well with Darkblast and Liliana to lock down Maverick and other aggro decks.

[lavafrogg]

I don't think choke can resolve in a timely enough manner or consistanly enough to matter in enough matches. They should also be antisideboarding for choke and attempting to counter it at all turns.

Against rug, if you get to the point in the game where you can resolve a choke and are not dead on the board or praying to not get burned out, you should have already won. Grip is increasingly needed as humility has become a real card in the miracle sideboards and you are going to be cold to it.ono-white will be making a showing for the next couple weeks until everyone gets their hearts filled with land tax love.

Grip is going to kill counterbalances in the miracle matchup as well. Which can be a bitch to play around as a rock player.

I feel that if you assign yourself as the aggro deck and drop beaters and teeg you should be able to get there more often then not.

[damionblackgear]

It's true. The Miracle deck's counterbalance can be annoying but, it's not the end of the world. I don't think you need Krosan Grip to beat it. Pulse and Vindicate are typically enough. If you have the GSZ in your list then Pridemage is also an answer. Just remember, they play 3's and 4's as well.

As far as choke goes. I find that if it lands against Canadian Thresh or pretty much any other Blue based deck, it's game over from there. An opponent who can't plays spells is pretty much dead on board.

-Edit-

New Example video going up with this weeks videos (Should finish uploading today). How to Beat an in play Griselbrand.

[Mirrislegend]

So is something like this more useful/broad?

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Perish
2 Choke
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution/Dread of Night/Maverick hate

Better? I realize I'm stone cold losing to Burn, but, whatever. Burn doesn't race Iona well.

-Matt

1x Kitchen Finks in your SB will improve your burn MU significantly. It's the perfect GSZ target for vs Burn. And it's not a wasted SB slot, as Finks is a nightmare for RUG and BUG. IMO, Uvenwald tracker is WICKED unnecessary in your list. You already run a large amount of removal. Here's how I would change that SB:

-1 Tracker, -2 undecided Mav hate slot
+1 Finks, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Teeg or Timely (depending on if you expect Storm combo or burn)

This setup still leaves you a gazillion ways to deal with Maverick (Dread, Perish, Deeds, EE, even Finks if you want) and buoys some of your weak points

~~~~~~~~~~~~

@ daimon: I believe we discussed this before, but I don't remember your answer. You play 2 Dismember in your board. I don't understand why they're there. Now normally, at a certain point, you just gotta go with what you like for SB, but given how tight we are for SB space, I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind your choice (Especially that you play plenty of removal MD)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is anyone else having TONS of trouble beating Sneak and Show? I'm desperately trying to fit Diabolic Edicts into my SB just for that MU. very much looking forward to that video, daimon

[Thorondor]

is anyone planing to play some sort of this deck at ghent gp? And if yes, what do you think the meta will look like? Hymns good or not? more control or more aggro?. ....

[damionblackgear]

@ daimon: I believe we discussed this before, but I don't remember your answer. You play 2 Dismember in your board. I don't understand why they're there. Now normally, at a certain point, you just gotta go with what you like for SB, but given how tight we are for SB space, I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind your choice (Especially that you play plenty of removal MD)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is anyone else having TONS of trouble beating Sneak and Show? I'm desperately trying to fit Diabolic Edicts into my SB just for that MU. very much looking forward to that video, daimon

The Dismember's are because I wanted Instant speed removal that costed 1. The choices were: Path to Exile, Vendetta, Dismember, Ghastly Demise, and Snuff Out. (I think that was all of them)

The requirements set because I needed to be able to interact with my opponent at my choice of times (Instant) and quickly (hence the 1cc). Of the Choices:

Path - Ramps opponents. Perhaps not much but it's not the Canadian Thresh matches that I want the extra bit of removal for. It's the Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, etc matches which all benefit greatly by having extra mana.

Vendetta, Snuff Out, and Ghastly Demise - Can't hit black creatures.

That left only Dismember. I can afford to lose the 4 life if I'm killing Mom or Lackey. I can pay for it in the later turns. So, in essence, This spell costs me life to resolve serious issues.

I would gladly replace the spell if Wizards would print a more useful and equally versatile removal spell. Even removing the Non-Black clause from Vendetta would be enough for me.

As for why it's there - The Aggro decks survive by putting 'problematic' cards into play quickly (i.e. Mom, Lackey, Lords, etc). Sometimes you need to Kill things quickly. Having the extra cheap removal increases those odds, of having a solution to those 'problematic' cards. In other words, "No problematic cards. No problems winning."


-Edit-

Videos up here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DfkVNUg2Ps&list=PLED9BB5431A2C4827&feature=plpp_play_all)

Griselbrand... KO'd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwq547hFJns&feature=g-upl)

[militiaman89]

So right now I can't decide if hymn is good right now especially with a lot of misderection in main decks.and spell peirce maybe like a break down of 3 iok 2 thoughtseize 2 duress then removal of 2 pulse 4 stp and 1 zealous

[lavafrogg]

Damion- I love your videos.

For dismember- have you tried EE in that spot? It can answer 1 drops quite nicely and also dig you out of an active mother of runes hole later in the game. It is a hard sweeper against merfolk when set on 2 or three(also takes out vials if that is your thing) but has less to say against goblins the deck(better against goblins that have been emptied from their warrens...)

[damionblackgear]

Damion- I love your videos.

For dismember- have you tried EE in that spot? It can answer 1 drops quite nicely and also dig you out of an active mother of runes hole later in the game. It is a hard sweeper against merfolk when set on 2 or three(also takes out vials if that is your thing) but has less to say against goblins the deck(better against goblins that have been emptied from their warrens...)

Thank you.

I the restrictions for the Dismember slot was Instant speed removal that could be used on the first turn. EE's slot would be the Zealous Persecution but I've been enjoying the Persecution because it can be offensive as well.

[sdematt]

This is what I'll likely play on Sunday:

Only things that have changed since last posting:

+1 Ulvenwald Tracker
-1 Duress

--BOARD--

1 Duress/Ruin/Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt (Bog better? I think I still like Crypt more here)
1 Perish
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Choke

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

Hello rock players sorry for unnecessary post of archetype 'thing' that is only my perspective on how i describe a rock deck, anyways no more extended discussions on that.
Btw i participated a 18 man legacy tourney and got 3rd (4-1) and luckily i drew a huntmaster of the fells from the packs i received.
Here's my matches
R1 vs merfolk: 1-2
R2 vs gobs: 2-1
R3 vs dredge: 2-0
R4 vs monowhite kitkhins: 2-0
R5 vs grixis tempo: 2-0

for reference, actually i took damionblack gear's list but i made changes according to my taste and preference :)
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
2 stoneforge mystic
1 tarmogoyf
1 qasali pridemage
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun the last troll
1 dryad arbor

4 thoughtseize
3 maelstrom pulse
2 green sun's zenith

4 swords to plowshares

2 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of light and shadow( actually this must be batterskull but my friend returned my batterskull when i was playing the rounds so from that moment i used solas)

1 sylvan library
1 liliana of the veil

2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy

sb
2 nihil spellbombs
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 thalia guardian of thraben
2 duress
2 pernicious deed
1 humility
2 choke

[damionblackgear]

Nice run. What happened with the Merfolk match?

Just a quick bit of advice - Don't play Relic. You have 4 Knights and a Goyf. Your Graveyard matters (Even if it is a single). Use another Crypt or Spellbomb if you NEED the sweep hate.

[ryn ball_2]

Nice run. What happened with the Merfolk match?

Just a quick bit of advice - Don't play Relic. You have 4 Knights and a Goyf. Your Graveyard matters (Even if it is a single). Use another Crypt or Spellbomb if you NEED the sweep hate.

Hmm i side-in relic for can thresh just to uncheck there threshold, but yes i dont prefer relic i was force to use it cuz my other tormod's are used by the friends, about merfolk match G1: i was on the draw the game is too fast he countered my KOTR, wasteland by black sources (i cant play bob) and from there i cant recover, game 2 was a good one, simple i thoughtseized him, stp 1 of the atlantis, drop choke, drop KOTR and drop goyf from there i cant resist my fatties, game 3 i have good hand w/ deeds but i got wastelanded and series of nonland cards i drew from there so i got raped :)

[Mirrislegend]

@ daimon:
Watched your Solidarity video: you're discussing Thalia as combo hate. You are very correct about the problem that the classic combo decks she preys upon are no longer played. That's why I use Teeg. In addition to the classic combo decks, Teegs hits Dredge, Miracle Control, and pretty much every combo deck that Thalia hits. In addition, Teeg doesn't hinder your discard the way Thalia does. I only want Thalia against Sneak and Show, that is the ONLY common situation where I'd prefer her over Teeg.

Your Gristlebrand video: You have Karakas out already. Also, they clearly had a very slow start. That doesn't really teach us anything :/

[damionblackgear]

Tough breaks game 3. Mana disruption is about the only way for them to beat us.


@ daimon:
Watched your Solidarity video: you're discussing Thalia as combo hate. You are very correct about the problem that the classic combo decks she preys upon are no longer played. That's why I use Teeg. In addition to the classic combo decks, Teegs hits Dredge, Miracle Control, and pretty much every combo deck that Thalia hits. In addition, Teeg doesn't hinder your discard the way Thalia does. I only want Thalia against Sneak and Show, that is the ONLY common situation where I'd prefer her over Teeg.

Your Gristlebrand video: You have Karakas out already. Also, they clearly had a very slow start. That doesn't really teach us anything :/

I also Run Teeg. :smile:

The Griselbrand video's main purpose isn't meant to be informative but instead to show that it is possible to beat that card after coming into play (Since everyone says the demon is unbeatable if it hits play. That was the second match I played against that person. There was a Griselbrand in the first match and he didn't win their either.

The Karakas being in play is irrelevant as there is a knight that could fetch it. I could have used the already in play Wasteland to destroy the black source. I fetched in case he had Submerge but should' have waited to keep Bog/Maze up. Also, his draw was average. No, he didn't Turn 2 (fast) the Griselbrand but, by no means was it slow (turn 4).

[lavafrogg]

This is what I'll likely play on Sunday:

Only things that have changed since last posting:

+1 Ulvenwald Tracker
-1 Duress

--BOARD--

1 Duress/Ruin/Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt (Bog better? I think I still like Crypt more here)
1 Perish
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Choke

-Matt


Let us know how the tracker does and try to remember everything you board to share with us after you win!

[ryn ball_2]

Hello rock players. i will attend a major legacy tourney this coming sunday and my estimated meta are RUG, UR, GW/x maverick, esper stoneblade, merfolk, elves, goblins, hivemind, sneak and show, reanimator, dredge.

And this is what my sideboard looks for july 8;
2 pernicious deed or 2 zealous persecution?
1 umezawa's jitte
2 ethersworn canonist or 2 thalia?
2 duress
2 choke
2 surgical extraction or 2 extirpate?
2 nihil spellbomb
1 gaddock teeg
1 kitchen finks

what is your thoughts about it? thanks!

[lavafrogg]

Have an answer to merfolk, with all of the blue running around right now the island walking fishes are coming back strong. Especially with the quick clock and disruption suite they run against combo(especially sneak and show).

I feel we have always been strong against the folk but goyf was always our best defense against quick decks. With elves all over last weeks open and merfolk all over this one...Engineered plague might be a plan against the world right now. Naming humans against maverick, merfolk, goblins, elves...could be better or worse than infest seeing how you can GSZ for an arbor turn one and drop a plague turn two...

[Thorondor]

Have an answer to merfolk, with all of the blue running around right now the island walking fishes are coming back strong. Especially with the quick clock and disruption suite they run against combo(especially sneak and show).

I feel we have always been strong against the folk but goyf was always our best defense against quick decks. With elves all over last weeks open and merfolk all over this one...Engineered plague might be a plan against the world right now. Naming humans against maverick, merfolk, goblins, elves...could be better or worse than infest seeing how you can GSZ for an arbor turn one and drop a plague turn two...
I agree, Engineered Plague can definitely go into the SB again and Darkblast, I even consider playing 4 STP + 1 Darkblast main.
The Merfolk MU should be fine for us, as long as we play around daze and do not totally miss on removal.

Btw.: If Griselbrand is out, you lose! :P (if the opponent still has 15 or more HP)

@ryn ball_2
considering your meta:
I would prefer thalia, deed and surgical extraction
maybe try Darkblast over Jitte or 1 Nihil Spellbomb (you should play bojuka bog main, it rocks!)

if you fear merfolk, elves and goblins add engineered plagues over deed and something else. (I would prefer 3 EPs and not just 2)

[sdematt]

Fresh off a long 22 hour day with 4.5 hours of driving, I'm back from SCG Seattle, and I liked how I did.

Total was 5-3 (should have been 6-2, but whatever), and Top 64.

Again, my decklist:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 GSZ
4 Swords to Plowshares

--BOARD--

1 Duress (this should have been something else, probably)
2 Timely Reinforcements (very solid)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution (solid)
1 Perish
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke


Round 1: Bryce with Mono Black Aggro

Bryce is a nice guy, and I see him with a first turn Duress. He takes Top or something, and I rip Thoughtseize and see he's either Pox of Mono Black Aggro. Not totally excited. He starts running out Vampire Nighthawks, so my Knights cannot plow their way through. He lands Persecutor, but I get Sylvan online and get removal + Ulvenwald Tracker to chuck an exalted Qasali into the Nighthawk. He lands Persecutor, but I run over that with Garruk Relentless. Woot.

In: 2 Engineered Explosives
Out: 1 Duress, 1 Random

Game 2, he's stuck on Wasteland and Swamp, and goes into Dark Confidant. I murder it, then he drops another. I waste his Waste, then go in for Tarmogoyf beats. He draws land far too land, and I fetch a Dryad Arbor in response to his kicked Gatekeeper of Malakair. I get Tracker online, along with Ooze, and mop up.

1-0

Round 2: Drew with RUG

Drew again seems like a nice guy, but has to mull twice. I start applying pressure, but he has so many burn spells. I get him down to ten with Knight, but he gets too many Delvers going.

In: 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Timely Reinforcements, 2 Choke
Out: 1 Thoughtseize, 3 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Duress, 1 Garruk Relentless

Drew has a hand that's amazing, apparently. I keep a decent seven with Dark Confidant, Sylvan, Goyf, enough lands, etc. He has triple Daze, double Spell Pierce, and Forces. What. The. Fuck. I lose.

1-1

Round 3: Lochlan (The Source member Lochlan) with Sneak and Show

Lochlan wins the die roll, but I say I'm mulling first. He keeps a loose hand he tells me, and I get there on a 6-card hand of discard and Knight beats. He doesn't draw anything relevant, or I make him discard it. He slow-rolls a Sneak Attack, but I've got Pulse.

In: 1 Duress, 2 Choke, 3 Surgical Extraction
Out: 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Tracker, 1 Top, 1 Garruk Relentless, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Dark Confidant

Lochlan elects to play and I ransack his hand with some discard. I crack some fetches and play Maze of Ith and Dark Confidant. He Sneaks Griselbrand, I choose Knight. I get Karakas up, but he can't get through Maze and Karakas unless he hits Blood Moon, but by this point, Knight was huge and he was at 9 (I had lethal with Confidant and Knight). So, I bounced Grisel and killed him.

2-1

Round 4: Galen with UG Infect

I Thoughtseize on the play and hit his Glistener Elf. Fucking infect. I try to build up a Force, and I get Tracker into play. However, he drew another Elf, and Brainstormed into 3 (three!) pump spells. Boo. Never saw removal.

In: 2 Zealous Persecution, 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Deed
Out: 1 Duress, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Garruk Relentless, 1 Top, 1 Loam

He builds up and gets 2 Noble Hierarch and an Inkmoth nexus. I try to Zealous Persecution out his team, but he has the pumps. I then EE away the Nobles (accidentally, since they would have died to the Zealous, but I didn't have anything else to do with my mana besides that), but he draws another pump. Nice topdecks.

2-2

Round 5: Chris with U/R Burn

Chris opens game 1 with Goblin Guide. I wasn't looking forward to this. He burns the garbage out of me, but I remove his stuff. I wasteland him down to Mountain, then play Knight. He proceeds to brick and I win with Knight in 4 turns.

In: 2 Choke, 2 Timely Reinforcements, 1 Duress
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Garruk Relentless, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Chris goes first again, and Brainstorms in reponse to my Thoughtseize. He then Miracles into Thunderous Wrath, two turns in a row, taking me to 8. I Choke him out when he's tapped out, and he can't Brainstorm off his Mountain to find more land. I dodge double Price of Progress by Wasteing myself, putting Knight to very huge. Knight crushes.

3-2

Round 6: Adam with Esperblade

Adam goes first and Thoughtseizes and Inquisitions me, while I do the same to him. He gets Jace online, and has 3 counters for my removal attempts, then gets Batterskull and Clique online. Ugh. Lose.

In: 2 Zealous Persecution, 2 Choke (tight boarding here)
Out: 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Dark Confidant, 1 Life from the Loam (no Wastelands to worry about).

Game 2 we're both off to a slower start, but he has 4 STP and 2 Snapcaster. I tank through some Knights, and none of them stick. Goyf tries to come in, but can't. I Persecution away a team of Faeries and Wizards, then drop 7/7 Knight. This also dies. Then, Ooze comes to clean up the entire party.

Game 3, I'm on the sketchy keep with Choke, Swamp, Forest, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Garruk, Dark Confidant. Sketchy meaning only perfect. I Thoughtseize taking the discard spell, let Dark Confidant get countered, Choke him out. He doesn't/cannot recover. I drop Tarmogoyf and Dryad Arbor, and they go to town. He tries to fight back, but Ulvenwald is better.

4-2

Round 7: Nick with Dredge

I knew Nick was on Dredge since he sat next to me in Round 3, and he knew I was on Junk/the guy with the Beta duals. Game 1, he goes off turn 3 after 3 Faithless Looting. Ouch.

In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Tormod's Crypt
Out: 1 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Loam, 1 Garruk

Game 2 is bad for him. I respond to his Cabal Therapy by Surgical'ing Golgari Grave Troll. Then, I lay out Ooze and slowly take him apart.

In Game 3, the same basic thing happens, except I have big creatures for some blocking, then I lay out Ooze after a GSZ, then mop up his graveyard. No chance for him.

5-2

Round 8: Michael with Goblins

Game 1 is a slow 35 minute game where I barely lose. He attacks, but I have Garruk making tokens, Goyfs, and Knight, but I can't push through due to Piledrivers, etc. I get him to 3, but I never see a removal spell.

In: 2 Zealous Persecution, 2 Timely Reinforcements, 1 Deed, 2 EE
Out: 1 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Garruk, 1 Confidant, 1 Top, 1 random

Game 2 is pretty bad, I don't hit relevant threats or any removal until it's far too late. Deed doesn't hit much, and I die.

5-3

Overall record is 5-3, and I get $50. I'll update with what I liked and what I didn't tomorrow, since I'm really tired now :P

---------

Also, I find it super offensive I placed 47th? and I'm not on the decklists thread. Boo. Who do I complain to? Junk is a real thing. If you guys know who to complain to, ask for Matt P's Junk deck in 47th place to be listed on the SCG decklists thing. It's very high finishing for non-blue, non-Maverick, non-Combo.

I'm in this pic:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150978189657918&set=a.10150975860897918.407086.174376972917&type=1&permPage=1

To the right of the guy in the the white shirt in the second row from the front, I'm sitting second from the left on the side of that second row furthest from the camera. I'm mostly obstructed.



-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Sounds like Uvenwald was great for you! Any MD or SB changes that you would make? (hah, just read your comment on that. Get to it when you're awake)

Looking at the Top 32 decklists, I'm getting worried that my Stoneforge build may be outdated. tbh, I LOVE how it crushes random (which is a big part of winning a major tournament), but it seems vulnerable to so many things these days. Anyone playing Stoneforge having a tough time?

[Thorondor]

thx for the report sdmatt and gratz for the 5:3, sad it wasnt 6:2 ;-)

@mirrislegend:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Feventcoverage%2Fgpatl12%2Fwelcome#0

check top 32 stoneblade seems not to be outdated, some splash black for 1cc discard and sideboard options.
Interestings lists, also this is not the thread for stoneblade discussion.

[Arsenal]

He meant GWB lists running Stoneforge Mystic, not UWx lists running Stoneforge Mystic+Snapcaster Mage, etc...

I don't see anything wrong with Stoneforge in Junk. Stoneforge + Batterskull is one of the best possible plays you can do against all the fair decks in the format. Problem is that unlike UWx Stoneforge decks, we don't have free countermagic to protect our Stoneforge, meaning we have to crutch even harder on 1cc target discard spells in the hopes we pull their only removal prior to us casting Stoneforge Mystic.

[Thorondor]

oh, dumb me. sorry

I still play 3 sfm jitte and batterskull.

first turn (mox diamonds ftw) sfm ist very strong against many decks especially if goblins, merfolk and elves make a comeback.

[Mirrislegend]

Arsenal hit the nail on the head, concerning the major problem with Stoneforge: it beats FAIR decks. We have minimal tools that are truly effective against unfair decks (mulliganing to a double discard hand seems bad, and is often not enough). And even the fair decks are realizing what a beating Stoneforge is, so they're SBing more for it.

[Sughayyer]

Congratulations, Matt!!

@Mirrislegend:
I tried Stoneforge on junk for about a month or so. I didn't like it (had to take too many cards away for the sfm package) but I think that was mostly due to my style of play. Stoneforge is a great card nevertheless, and batterskull+ jitte is far too good.

[ryn ball_2]

Have an answer to merfolk, with all of the blue running around right now the island walking fishes are coming back strong. Especially with the quick clock and disruption suite they run against combo(especially sneak and show).

I feel we have always been strong against the folk but goyf was always our best defense against quick decks. With elves all over last weeks open and merfolk all over this one...Engineered plague might be a plan against the world right now. Naming humans against maverick, merfolk, goblins, elves...could be better or worse than infest seeing how you can GSZ for an arbor turn one and drop a plague turn two...

i agree dropping goyfs against merfolk causing them to cease fire and also dropping big KOTR, one of the card i'm thinking of along side e-plague was dueling grounds great synergy w/ our maze of ith. and yes i realized naming human against mavericks works well :wink:

[Mirrislegend]

i agree dropping goyfs against merfolk causing them to cease fire and also dropping big KOTR, one of the card i'm thinking of along side e-plague was dueling grounds great synergy w/ our maze of ith. and yes i realized naming human against mavericks works well :wink:

E Plague hitting Maverick, via naming Humans, gives that card a lot of viability that it wouldn't have without it hurting Mav. Might be really worth consideration

[ryn ball_2]

I agree, Engineered Plague can definitely go into the SB again and Darkblast, I even consider playing 4 STP + 1 Darkblast main.
The Merfolk MU should be fine for us, as long as we play around daze and do not totally miss on removal.

Btw.: If Griselbrand is out, you lose! :P (if the opponent still has 15 or more HP)

@ryn ball_2
considering your meta:
I would prefer thalia, deed and surgical extraction
maybe try Darkblast over Jitte or 1 Nihil Spellbomb (you should play bojuka bog main, it rocks!)

if you fear merfolk, elves and goblins add engineered plagues over deed and something else. (I would prefer 3 EPs and not just 2)

thank you Thorondor, hmmm i'm fine w/ surgical and deed, it is between thalia and canonist i know it hinders a little bit when we cast discards but atleast it buys us time due to the fact opponent struggles to additional :1: to their noncreature spells, maybe i will considered thalia since i side in also thalia against rug where an ideal situation i have thalia w/ choke in my field :wink:

i think i'm fine w/ deeds along side jitte in my main, looking back to the matches i posted i was raped in game 3 due to wastelanded black source w/c i have a deed in hand :)

[ryn ball_2]

congrats matt! :)

[Sughayyer]

E. Plague seems really great, but if we name it to humans, we lose bob... Of course, they lose much more...I'll try it next wednesday. I was going to ask your oppinions on a few changes, but i'm posting via phone, so I'll have to do that later... =/ anyways, rock decks ftw!!

[Mirrislegend]

E. Plague seems really great, but if we name it to humans, we lose bob... Of course, they lose much more...I'll try it next wednesday. I was going to ask your oppinions on a few changes, but i'm posting via phone, so I'll have to do that later... =/ anyways, rock decks ftw!!

Maverick is a very tricky deck to play against. Stoneforge isn't reliable because of their pridemages and stoneforges. Without that lifegain, Confidant becomes shaky. However, he also has the potential to crush them via card advantage that they cannot match. Deciding whether EPlague is correct in the Maverick MU is a very personal and very deck dependant decision

[militiaman89]

So I have been playing 2 maindeck stoneforge and they have been great especially against decks like elves/goblins. They give you a way to find jitte which is huge and once you get that online its GG.

[Mirrislegend]

Tbh, I think we've well established that Stoneforge is the way to go, if you feel a need to really ensure a great MU vs balls-to-the-wall aggro decks, tribal decks, and other fair decks. I think the discussion really needs to turn to the unfair decks. Everyone, please share: what are you doing, MD and SB, against the unfair decks, how did you come to make those card choices, and how is it working out?

I'll start:
I run 4x 1cmc discard and 4x hymn MD. I also play 1 Qasali Pridemage and 1 Ooze as targets for GSZ. My Stoneforge package allows me to BSkull against Tendrils decks. SB: I have 2x Teeg for classic combo decks. I run 4x Surgical Extraction against most combo, and it splash hates Reanimator nicely.

I've been happy with Hymn against most decks, but I feel like it doesn't pull it's weight vs the new generation of unfair decks (Sneak and Show and Reanimator). Teeg is likewise awesome against many decks, but not against Gristlebrand decks. I've become so frustrated with those decks that I now run 3x Diabolic Edict in the SB. My SB is very tight, not sure what else I could put in or where I could put it.

[Arsenal]

Right, Stoneforge + equipment > fair decks. This has been well established. However, we have to ask ourselves if we beat the fair decks even without Stoneforge and if we do, then shouldn't we use those 4-6 slots to improve the unfair matchups?

[Sughayyer]

As I said, jitte and batter are great, but we don't need them against fair decks. I'm happy with hymn, but I was considering using 6 point discards, to make run for 2 gsz (and with them, all the package - qasali, dryad, teeg, etc). Since my sideboard is 1 extirpate, 1 surgical, 1 thrunn, 1 elspeth and a couple tutors for plague, deed, spellbomb, etc, I'm thinking about replacing thrun with choke. When + get back home I'll post my list and my ideas for change

[lavafrogg]

I don't think we have settled on SFM being good in junk, roughly half of the players are playing it and the others are playing goyf in its stead. It is too slow against fast decks and is easily removed/disrupted by those same decks. In a pipe dream it is a ace in the hole but that never happens.

Congrats on the finish Matt! Top 64 is really awesome and I'm sorry you didn't do better... Which match do you feel like you should have won? You got 0-2'ed by RUG, infect and Goblins... all of which are by bad beats/god hands it sounds like...

[militiaman89]

So turning to unfair deck hymn im not sure is the way to good. I have not had much success with it and with the increasing sneak show decks it dosent do all that much. Point discard i think may be the way to go with added in the side. So far here is my list comments are welcome.
4 STP
4 BOb
4 KotR
2 Green sun
1 tarmogoyf
1 qasali
1 teeg ( miracle control is big now and recks us)
1 ooze
3 inquisition
2 thought seize
3 pulse
2 stoneforge
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 library
2 top
3 mox diamond
24 land
I feel like a want thalia in the main but have no room for it unless im cutting something. Plus if you play thalia you almost want Mom in there to protect it as well.

[Mirrislegend]

Right, Stoneforge + equipment > fair decks. This has been well established. However, we have to ask ourselves if we beat the fair decks even without Stoneforge and if we do, then shouldn't we use those 4-6 slots to improve the unfair matchups?

This hits the nail on the head. Does the non Stoneforge version consistently beat Burn, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick, Zoo, Bant, RUG, etc? I thought we could all agree that the answer is no, or at the very least, not compared to the thoroughness with which Stoneforge beats fair decks.

That having been said, non Stoneforge versions are far superior against the unfair decks, due to significantly greater pressure and due to a variety of options in the MD.

Given that fair decks are the greatest population of the format, I think Stoneforge MD is the way to go, and that's why I think discussion of handling unfair-deck MUs is more relevant than discussing fair-deck MUs (like recent discussion of EPlague)

[lavafrogg]

This hits the nail on the head. Does the non Stoneforge version consistently beat Burn, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick, Zoo, Bant, RUG, etc? I thought we could all agree that the answer is no, or at the very least, not compared to the thoroughness with which Stoneforge beats fair decks.

That having been said, non Stoneforge versions are far superior against the unfair decks, due to significantly greater pressure and due to a variety of options in the MD.

All of these decks have answers to a turn two stoneforge and have been built around killing a 1/2 squire or making him useless through the use of maindeck artifact removal. Except for elves and merfolk, turn 2 stoneforge will go un responded and is a huge tempo sink if they have the answer for it. We do not have free counter magic to stay interactive with our opponent while they drop their hand that we can hopefully answer on turn 3-4 with an active jitte/batterskull. Maverick has been cutting the stoneforge because just playing more jittes is a better plan overall for the gw aggro monstrosity.

If you use tarmogoyf in your sentences they almost make more sense in that the goyf is hard to remove and greatly slows fair decks down. Matt lost to matches in which he had little to no sideboard action or sideboarded poorly.

Against RUG he should have kept the removal instead of the chokes, against infect he had nothing fast enough that he couldn't beat with his maindeck and against goblins, everything he sided in was effectively useless and tempo negative. Against gobbos you have to get on the board quick and force them into blocking situations, Garruck, confidant and top would have all been fine in game 2 to ensure you had blockers/drew more dudes to block or attack discard should have came out for the persecutions and/or the reinforcements.

Even if you are going to run SFM you would need to run 4 goyfs to help clog the ground while your equipment gets active, we don't run the mana accelerants of maverick or the counter magic of stoneblade. Maverick even runs Gaea's Cradle to help with equipment.

[Mirrislegend]

Tarmogoyf clogs the ground, but he rarely wins the game. Stoneforge provides utility, threats, answers, defenses, and win cons.

And anyone with an answer to Stoneforge has an answer to Goyf, so that's not really a great argument



Even if you are going to run SFM you would need to run 4 goyfs to help clog the ground while your equipment gets active, we don't run the mana accelerants of maverick or the counter magic of stoneblade. Maverick even runs Gaea's Cradle to help with equipment.
This is an excellent point, a point that distresses me about my current build. However, since I've found SFM to win more often than Goyf, I'm just gonna use SFM to beat the fair decks, then focus on the unfair decks rather than on Goyf

[militiaman89]

OK so what about a list that is better geared toward the unfair matchups and still has a solid fair matchup, matchup lol.
i reall like thalia and it holds off other creature decks with first strike while posing a threat to any unfair matchups
4 KotR
3 Mom
3 Thalia
2 stoneforge
4 Bob
1 Ooze
1 goyf
1 batterskull
1 jitte
4 STP
1 pulse
1 zealous persecution
2 thoughtseize
3 inquisition
1 duress
3 mox diamond
2 green sun
24 land

[lavafrogg]

Live cards against goyf: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, relic.

Live cards against SFM: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, lightning bolt, forked bolt, quasali pridemage, stifle, phyrexian revoker, ancient grudge, duress, thoughtsieze, clique and whatever else affects creatures/cards in hand/triggered abilities.

Being rediculously huge for no commitment provides offense, defense, utility and even makes the player better looking to the opposite sex.

[damionblackgear]

Matt, I know you wanted better but you gave a strong finish and ended $50 richer from it. Congratulations.

How did you like the maindeck tracker? I know I said put it in the side so I wanted to see what you thought of it.

-----

Against unfair decks I play Liliana, Teeg, Thalia, and 5 (4+board) pieces of hand disruption.

4 Thoughtseize - I play because it's unrestricted discard. 2 life is a fine cost to pay to allow the possibility of winning.
1 Duress - Over Inquisition as most of what we'd be pulling are spells. Also, Things are starting to go up in cost so getting over 3cc has become important.
1 Teeg - As things have started to go up in cost, Teeg becomes more effective.
2 Thalia - This format is still about optimizing the land;spell cost ratio. Thalia changes that ratio.
2 Liliana of the Veil - Limit's hand sized while providing an answer to the issue that present themselves.

if combo decks remain either creature based or limited spell based, I would switch back to Ethersworn Canonist. Stopping the creature based combo's, I feel, would be the better choice than slowing the others.

[sdematt]

The maindeck Tracker is amazing, and I wouldn't cut it for anything right now. I cut Duress for it. It's great. Opponents rarely counter GSZ for X=1 since they think you're fetching a manadork. It's wonderful.

After analyzing everything, I think I may have made a few play mistakes, but I don't think they ended up costing me the game.

Cards I liked the most all day were Sylvan Library, Tracker, Knight (obviously), Tarmogoyf (anyone who says he's awful, he's a tank), and the Ooze.

I don't think SFM would have won me too many games where drawing removal and stuff would have, but I've been off the SFM plan for a while, and I won't be back on it unless combat gets more intense again. It would have dominated the Goblins game, but if I had drawn a removal spell all game, that would have done it as well.

Cards that I liked in the sideboard were definitely Choke and Timely. Zealous was pretty good, but I never ended up using EE much nor Perish since I faced zero Maverick or Elves. I would have rather have faced Elves in the last round, by far.

Overall, in the maindeck, Garruk and Life from the Loam were very good for the long-game. Garruk dominates games, especially with Tracker, and the 1-of Loam is great if you get behind on mana, need Maze/Karakas/Wastelands back from the grave. If you're running Moxen, I'd even suggest running 1-2. It's very solid.

Even though Garruk and Life get boarded out in matchups where they aren't as relevant, I still would keep them as they are. They're VERY good.

For the number of GSZ, I still like 3. I wouldn't cut that. Maelstrom Pulse was good also at 3.

Now, for Props and Slops.

Props:

Coconut water and granola bars
Tim Hortons coffee
Ultra Pro Pro Matte Sleeves
People thinking my Beta duals were collectors edition
People recognizing me by my Beta duals
Winning $50
American burgers
Going to the bathroom between every round

Slops:

Missing the fact Noble Hierarchs should have died to Zealous Persecution
Never drawing removal against Goblins
Not being aggressive enough in Game 1 vs. Goblins
Having to explain what Magic is to border guards

Hope you enjoyed it! Pictures to come!

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Live cards against goyf: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, relic.

Live cards against SFM: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, lightning bolt, forked bolt, quasali pridemage, stifle, phyrexian revoker, ancient grudge, duress, thoughtsieze, clique and whatever else affects creatures/cards in hand/triggered abilities.

Being rediculously huge for no commitment provides offense, defense, utility and even makes the player better looking to the opposite sex.

Tseize and Clique hit goyf.

Some of the others (Stifle, Revoker, Duress) are seeing minimal play. Ancient grudge is SB only.

The only real standouts are burn spells. And it's just something you have to accept. It's also very easy to deal with. I've won so many games by just baiting burn spells with other creatures, then Stoneforge into win.

Your described advantages of goyfs are all over the truth spectrum:
Utility - no. He swings or blocks, that's it
Offense - eh, hopefully. Does it count when you're in a goyf stalemate, chump blocked by tokens, or losing to KotR?
Defense - yup. He sits there and blocks things pretty well
Sexiness - This is truth. The fairer sex finds Goyf players much sexier than Stoneforge players

[lavafrogg]

They hit goyf just like they hit mystic but they hit the equipment in hand even harder. If you don't want to listen thats cool but if you are having trouble early game, which you are, then play more goyfs. Mystic almost competes with knight in the mid game slot and is much better on turns 3-5 when you have lands in play to cast the equipment.

Most of the plays I am describing are tempo plays that will just seal you out of the game against the faster aggro decks in the format.

SFM is a control are played in control decks

Goyf is the reason goblins stopped being tier one.

On goyf being utility: he is a walking abyss against Merfolk, zoo, and goblins. The best removal spell for a goyf is a goyf obviously, and you want to be the better knight deck than other knights(confidant allows you to out gas maverick). He also attacks like a truck.

[Mirrislegend]

Tempo argument, yes you're right. But I don't see how Goyf provides enough tempo to win, compared to the raw power of SFM

[Arsenal]

Confidant/Goyf/KotR are the three creatures that should definitely have a home. Numbers may vary, but they should be in your list. From there, it's a hodge-podge of Ooze/Stoneforge/etc.

[lavafrogg]

The key to surviving against the faster decks is to survive the early turns, make your land drops and get to the point in the game where you can play maelstrom pulse/Garrick/multiple cards per turn/SFM/knight tricks aka where rock is good at the game.

Against fast decks goyf mucks up the ground and eats creatures until you get your bigger spells online.

Against combo goyf provides the fastest clock possible for your disruption to buy enough time to win.

He doesn't provide tempo as much as stops tempo when he needs to and races when he has to.

[Mirrislegend]

-Early game survival can be iffy for Stoneforge-over-Goyf builds, this is true.
-Goyf also gives you the most pressure for your money (relevant in those unfair deck MUs).

But outside of those points, Stoneforge does everything better. That's why I aim to play Stoneforge and buoy the few bad MUs than play Goyf and attempt to compensate for a greater number of bad MUs

[mini1337s]

Props:
Tim Hortons coffee

Well, it was Canada Day. Sunday mornings Canadian pastors swap out their communion wine for the stuff.

I saw you used Tracker a bit in your report, but did you find he was worth it? Have you considered Sylvan Safekeeper in your slot so you have a non-white Mother of Runes that you can Tutor up? Seems pretty handy in keeping your KotRs safe from spot removal, and can grow them and Goyf if you sac Dryad Arbor. Maybe it would be better in a dedicated loam list, but seems decent enough.

Fingers-crossed SCG posts the list.

[sdematt]

For sure. If I didn't have any Timmies, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have done quite as well.

Tracker was definitely worth it, but I haven't tried Safekeeper yet. I think I'd want more Loams like you said if I was on that plan.

Does anyone know who I contact to try and get Junk put up there? I mean, just because Cedric Phillips played Maverick doesn't mean they need to list him, and he came in 135th.

-Matt

[mini1337s]

It's worth a quick email. Not sure why they would have any problem when it just gives people a reason to buy Bobs and Bayous

[lavafrogg]

-Early game survival can be iffy for Stoneforge-over-Goyf builds, this is true.
-Goyf also gives you the most pressure for your money (relevant in those unfair deck MUs).

But outside of those points, Stoneforge does everything better. That's why I aim to play Stoneforge and buoy the few bad MUs than play Goyf and attempt to compensate for a greater number of bad MUs

Outside the fact that goyf helps in most/all problem matchups, stoneforge is better? I'm confused. Doesn't that make goyf a better card in this deck? I would suggest running 4 GSZ and 4 knight before any SFM, the card isn't better than your planeswalker of choice and takes up too many slots to justify running a vulnerable threat/board control engine.

I feel that stoneforge does nothing better than goyf other than search for jitte in matchups that it matters, jitte or other aggro hosers can be placed in the sideboard.

Please explain why SFM is the better card in rock or what matchups SFM would be a better late game card over planeswalkers or other antics.

[Mirrislegend]

Goyf is very good in only two fair-deck MUs: Merfolk and Goblins. Against Elves, you need Jitte; against RUG, you need lifegain and/or removal; against Maverick, the solution varies by situation, but you need utility to answer it.

SFM is good in all fair-deck MUs that Goyf is good in (and the MUs that Goyf is not good in), and is even better in those MUs than goyf is. The two points from my previous post are the ONLY situations where Goyf is better than SFM. Basically, SFM fully handles all the fair-deck MUs (the single most common MU in any tournament), and Goyf doesn't.

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

[Sughayyer]

I may be wrong, but if we intend to go to the late game (thus optimizing sfm) we need pernicious deed (wich invalidates sfm). That's why I dropped it and decided to a more tempo-like version (mox, hymn, goyf). It's the build that is giving me the best results. Also my sb loam wants to go to main, but then I think I'll have to run 23 lands instead of 24. Any suggestions?

[Mirrislegend]

I may be wrong, but if we intend to go to the late game (thus optimizing sfm) we need pernicious deed (wich invalidates sfm). That's why I dropped it and decided to a more tempo-like version (mox, hymn, goyf). It's the build that is giving me the best results. Also my sb loam wants to go to main, but then I think I'll have to run 23 lands instead of 24. Any suggestions?

Fine tuning the number of lands in Rock deck is an interesting exercise. If you go to 23 lands, just cut down on your fetches and you should come out just fine!

NB:
Sughayyer, your mention of Deed and SFM is correct. That's why most Rock decks play one or the other. Deed is for mid to late game, and is a stabilizing tool. SFM is for early to mid game (and can cover late game, if you hit more than one) and is for stabilizing (obviously not quite as superbly as Deed) and for winning

[lavafrogg]

Goyf is very good in only two fair-deck MUs: Merfolk and Goblins. Against Elves, you need Jitte; against RUG, you need lifegain and/or removal; against Maverick, the solution varies by situation, but you need utility to answer it.

SFM is good in all fair-deck MUs that Goyf is good in (and the MUs that Goyf is not good in), and is even better in those MUs than goyf is. The two points from my previous post are the ONLY situations where Goyf is better than SFM. Basically, SFM fully handles all the fair-deck MUs (the single most common MU in any tournament), and Goyf doesn't.

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

Great post bro. Unless you actually find an argument where you are correct, I will stand by my view that goyf>SFM in all cases. Fair or not fair is for anyone to decide, goyf helps in more or the rocks problem matchups than SFM.

Tempo thresh cannot deal with a resolved goyf and can molest a SFM, I'm not sure where you are finding out otherwise....

Elves does fold to an active jitte but the fastest you can resolve SFM into jitte is turn 4(turn three with mox) and they should easily be able to combo off, GSZ for a shaman to kill the jitte, or use dryad arbor to keep counters off of the jitte, but whateves... SFM is a good card, herp derp.

[mini1337s]

Tempo thresh cannot deal with a resolved goyf and can molest a SFM, I'm not sure where you are finding out otherwise....
Not trying to pick a fight, but wouldn't Goyf only block a Goyf or a Mongoose? Delvers and Burn still get in there for a bit. While I chumps Goyfs and is better than Goose, it doesn't seem like the be all and end all (not that SFM is either).

[lavafrogg]

Not trying to pick a fight, but wouldn't Goyf only block a Goyf or a Mongoose? Delvers and Burn still get in there for a bit. While I chumps Goyfs and is better than Goose, it doesn't seem like the be all and end all (not that SFM is either).

Yes, that is correct, goyf only stops 2/3 of their threats so you can hold down the fort until your knights arrive.

[Sughayyer]

Now I'm finally home and I can write a decent post :)
First, I'll talk about the metagame where I play, then I'll post my list explaining my choices... all suggestions are welcome!
At my local shop there are about 2 burns, 1-2 gw, 1-2 esper (one with lingering souls, the other is a traditional esper stoneblade), affinity, sneak & show, reanimator, bw deadguy, mud, tes, belcher, elves, goblins, merfolk, spiral tide/solidariety (I don't really know the difference) and a bw pox. These are mostly the decks I find there.

My list:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 thoughtseize
These usually are the best pointed discards, and work early and mid-game. The life loss that seize brings is seldom relevant.

4 hymn to tourach
I LOVE hymn. It is very rare for a hymn to be completely useless. It may not take away exactly what I need, but it hinders my opponent. Also is great against combo decks. It will always be a 2 for 1 (unless snared). I never had a hymn misdirected, but that would hurt, I know.

2 vindicate
2 maelstrom pulse
As I posted before, vindicate is an all-purpose removal, and pulse hits multiple targets.

4 swords to plowshares
3 mox diamond
fixes mana as well as enables nice turn 1 plays

1 sylvan library
3 sensei's divining top

3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

2 liliana of the veil

Lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

This is basically the dark horizons deck with -2 gerrard's veredict -1 bob + 1 library + 2 liliana.

My side is:
2 enlightened tutor (most of the side revovles around them)
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 pithing needle
1 conversion
1 nihil spellbomb
1 life from the loam
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
1 elspeth, knight errand
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 duress

I want to fit a choke in the side, and was thinking about moving loam to the main.
Maybe change to 23 lands, but I can't cut fetches - maybe the bog or karakas?

Another option is:
remove hymns, work with 6 pointed discards, 2 gsz, add fight bear, qasali on the main.
What do you think? (hope t wasn't too confusing)

[damionblackgear]

I'm probably rambling by now. Here's the point:
TL;DR: The things that Goyf does better than Stoneforge are fewer and far less common than the things that Stoneforge does better than Goyf.

Great post bro. Unless you actually find an argument where you are correct, I will stand by my view that goyf>SFM in all cases. Fair or not fair is for anyone to decide, goyf helps in more or the rocks problem matchups than SFM...
I feel like both sides are making pointless arguments now.

Using Canadian Thresh as Goyf/Stoneforge protection? They play Goyf. goyf will stare at each other for a long time (Until someone finds any form of burn/removal - not pulse) or you die from them swinging overhead with Delver. Stoneforge also beats the deck as they can't reliably beat a Batterskull. Granted, they can just burn the mystic (if they have the burn spell). Or they may get a goyf that's big enough to block it.

Against Elves, both are too slow. And the example given against Stoneforge (tutor up Shaman...) is pointless. If they can tutor up shaman, they can tutor up THE INSECT and make the Goyf a time waste just the same and the Stoneforge. "Block. Bounce. Oh, you meant to just tap your guy for nothing? Ok... I guess". Removal is the only thing that matters there and Stoneforge acts as virtual copies of removal (Jitte). The only issue there, it's slow removal. Too slow.

Is Stoneforge Fragile? Yes. Goyf is typically the same or bigger on turn 2. Ironically though, outside of the red decks (admittedly, there are a lot right now) Goyf's impressive size isn't going to matter. All of the removal says Kill, Exile, or -5/-5. All of which solve an early Goyf.

Is Goyf utility? No. Goyf does two things: Turns sideways and stare. Both have their uses but that does not make it anymore utility than Vorstclaw.

What good are they?

Stoneforge allows you to find an answer for what you're playing against. Between what apears to be the two standard equipment (Jitte and Batterskull) one makes control upset while the other makes Aggro upset. A recurring creature is great vs control. Re-usable removal that doesn't strip spells from hand and speeds up the clock stomps aggro into the ground.

Goyf is a 'big' creature that swings quickly (since if you have the time you're probably dropping equipment first) and can usually provide pressure/protection in the early turns of the game. Mid-late game? You'd both probably agree you'd rather have a Knight or Ooze as they'll tend to be larger.

So which is better against unfair decks? Does it matter? You're not racing a Griselbrand or surviving an Emrakul's attack with either of them alone. Trying to race isn't going to work out too well. Try stabilizing their condition instead. I've been in places where I could mill the Emrakul decks because they let themselves get too far behind and I could hold it. Instead of arguing over beaters, why not try to figure that out instead.

[lavafrogg]

As I ready my last couple posts I realized that I sounded like an asshole and for that I am sorry. I still feel like I am correct but I need to find a way to express the fact that my amazing girlfriend and I have been drinking since 10 form coming through in my messages.

TL:DR goyf still>SFM, but not in an angry drunk way.

[sdematt]

They're two totally different cards.

In complicated creature combat, you want the Equipment. Utility in those situations is great. If you're trying to close the life total gap in as few turns as possible, then Goyf may be what you need. I've found I like Tarmogoyf because of the one-two punch we give most decks. Rip apart your hand is step one. Remove your threat and swing in is step two. I don't want to wait too long for when they recover from step one before step 2 starts.

SFM is a fine utility card, I just find it slow and I have few ways to adequately protect it, and I don't like the amount of investment in it. I do like Equipment, and I'd probably run 2 Jitte if I had extra slots, since Equipment trumps creature combat. Unfortunately, with the amount of unfair things I have to deal with right now, SFM did not make the current cut, more targeted discard and other effects did.

I would never say one is strictly better or worse than the other. This isn't like comparing Lord of Atlantis with the new Merfolk Lord, because that IS a situation of strictly better or worse. This is utility versus beef. Ideally, you have both. I'd love to run a creature suite of:

4 SFM
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight
2 Ooze
1 Qasali
1 Tracker

This would be fine too if we were never playing anything besides creature based decks.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Way to make us play nice Matt:p I really like SFM as a card and would also love to play 3-4 but it is too slow for what I want to do and requires too much of a mana investment.

Well stated.

[militiaman89]

so tommarrow night i am going to my weekly legacy tourny usually we have around 20 or so people with a diverse format. I will post results of how i do and my matchups.
here is the list i will be running tommarrow
4 KotR
4 Bob
2 SFM
1 teeg (miracle control is around) and a beotch to play against
1 goyf
1 ooze
1 qasali
3 maelstrom pulse
4 STP
3 inquisition
2 thoughtseize
2 green sun
2 top
1 library
3 mox diamond
1 batterskull
1 jitte
24 land

I want to play it out and see how i feel about stoneforge and also if hymn should go back in the deck.

[lavafrogg]

Good luck buddy! I wish i had a local tourney anywhere near me:( I would play all the time!

A junk list made day 2 of Atlanta if anyone can find the list!

[sdematt]

I haven't seen that list, but here's the spoils of war from yesterday:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/2012-07-01191638.jpg

Also, we went for 5 guys Burgers afterwards, and then brought their spice mix back across the border. I guess you could say we did the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs :cool:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/2012-07-01210003.jpg

-Matt

[Thorondor]

with 4 lands and 2 mox diamonds it is possible to have an active jitte on turn 2. :laugh::cool:

[Mirrislegend]

As I ready my last couple posts I realized that I sounded like an asshole and for that I am sorry. I still feel like I am correct but I need to find a way to express the fact that my amazing girlfriend and I have been drinking since 10 form coming through in my messages.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm proud that The Source is a place for legitimate discussion and not belligerent fanboys, and I'm glad that "Great post bro" is not what a valued member of our discussion had become. Also, sorry if I drove you to anger, I enjoy a spirited discussion, so I was all for our lengthy argument!

Also, I've taken your advice to heart (a little bit :wink:). I've been playing 3x Lingering Souls and loving them. However, they stare at me sadly from my hand when Daze or Thalia is across the board. Then I realized, most of the time, they block for profit! And Goyf can do that too, without dying (ie: providing similar card advantage), avoiding Pierce and Thalia, and easier to get past Daze. So I cut one Souls for one Goyf (bringing Goyf total to 2, with 3 Stoneforge) and I believe it will work out well. I'm looking forward to testing it (and hopefully surviving RUG's and Mav's early beats better)!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Instead of arguing over beaters, why not try to figure that out instead.

That was what I was originally trying to get to: figuring out the unfair-deck MUs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Sughayyer: How do you like Liliana? What MUs does she shine most in?

@sdematt: Could we get some details on your experiences with Tracker? It sounds like it worked out well, but I'd like to hear what MUs/situations you thought it was the most valuable. Also, congrats on the Kessel run. That stuff is the best part about 5 guys. I've heard it's actually very similar to the yummy spices on ramen. There's even a word for it in Japanese.

[Thorondor]

I also play tracker in the SB, sadly I does not hit play that often, maybe playing him main is a good idea especially when merfolk, goblins, elves are on the rise.
For now I can't say much about him, but about liliana.

I play 2 of them main and most of the time, she has been awesome, she has been awesome, plays like:
1. turn land, mox diamond, confi, second turn, land liliana,
totally breaks the game especially against fair decks, when they don't have stp or force, even with stp, liliana on board is always huge, because they can't force confi and lilli and if they do it cost them many cards.

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend
Most people have problems with liliana in the sense that there aren't many pinches for her discard ability, but we have plenty: seldom do we need 2 mox on the field as well as 2 tops, sometimes I discard a bob if I have stabilized with lili and a bob in the field, and also running 24 lands I'm not afraid of discarding one.
She helps stabilize a lot, is great against decks like maverick, and provides the "edict" effect against reanimator (that is, if we get her online).
We are one of the few decks that can play her fast (we can cast her on turn 2). Her effects are also great agaisnt random decks (like enchantress), is VERY good against combo (coupled with seizes and hymns) and she also hurts control, depriving them of their cards. I'm usually able to perform her ultimate quickly. I'd say I like her more than I liked deeds in main deck.
She also has the same psychological effects than bob - when you cast a bob, the opponent usually feels he's losing (even if that's not the case). When you get a planeswalker fast in the field like we can, the opponent feels the same. The strategy changes a bit when we're using her, as we start using the cards on the top (or library) rather the cards in our hand, but then again, our deck works by disrupting our opponent's plan and using board presence, so I think that she's all about it.

[Sughayyer]

Didnt see Thorondor's post. I agree 100%.

[Mirrislegend]

@Mirrislegend
Most people have problems with liliana in the sense that there aren't many pinches for her discard ability, but we have plenty: seldom do we need 2 mox on the field as well as 2 tops, sometimes I discard a bob if I have stabilized with lili and a bob in the field, and also running 24 lands I'm not afraid of discarding one.
She helps stabilize a lot, is great against decks like maverick, and provides the "edict" effect against reanimator (that is, if we get her online).
We are one of the few decks that can play her fast (we can cast her on turn 2). Her effects are also great agaisnt random decks (like enchantress), is VERY good against combo (coupled with seizes and hymns) and she also hurts control, depriving them of their cards. I'm usually able to perform her ultimate quickly. I'd say I like her more than I liked deeds in main deck.
She also has the same psychological effects than bob - when you cast a bob, the opponent usually feels he's losing (even if that's not the case). When you get a planeswalker fast in the field like we can, the opponent feels the same. The strategy changes a bit when we're using her, as we start using the cards on the top (or library) rather the cards in our hand, but then again, our deck works by disrupting our opponent's plan and using board presence, so I think that she's all about it.

Thank you for your thorough explanation! I see how she's a valuable asset... just not in any version I would play :tongue:. For the control builds, it sounds like she provides lovely domination, without having to risk your permanents to Deed.

[Sughayyer]

I'll try to get me some gszs and try less hymn, more pointed discards and the gsz toolbox, but I don't think I can make these changes in time for tomorrow, so I'm gonna use my "traditional" list. As soon as I test the gsz version I'll add my feelings about it :smile:. It seems really nice to fetch a tracker or a qasali.
Ah one question: In the gsz builds, I see usually 3 maelstrom pulse as the permanent removal. Is that so because of the qasali (that can remove enchantments and artifacts) and tracker (that is recurring against creatures)? The more I think about it the more I think that the gsz version has more resources. I'm really divided :tongue:

[Mirrislegend]

I'll try to get me some gszs and try less hymn, more pointed discards and the gsz toolbox, but I don't think I can make these changes in time for tomorrow, so I'm gonna use my "traditional" list. As soon as I test the gsz version I'll add my feelings about it :smile:. It seems really nice to fetch a tracker or a qasali.
Ah one question: In the gsz builds, I see usually 3 maelstrom pulse as the permanent removal. Is that so because of the qasali (that can remove enchantments and artifacts) and tracker (that is recurring against creatures)? The more I think about it the more I think that the gsz version has more resources. I'm really divided :tongue:

I was under the impression that GSZ was almost required. I've heard that it's been great across the board. This is no matter what versions you use: SFM vs Goyf, Mox vs Deed, Hymn vs Pinpoint. If somebody feels otherwise, please speak up!

[Qweerios]

GSZ is the strongest card in this deck. It is better than Bob, Deed, KotR, or any power house in the deck for that matter. It is a tutor for 1 green mana with an incredible array of quality targets. GSZ is, in my opinion, one of the best cards ever printed for legacy for its quality, flexibility, ease of play, and most importantly, its redundance and regularity. It will also only get better and better with each passing set.

Any Maverick player would agree with this too, because Maverick wouldn't be what it is without the green sun's dawn. IMO, GSZ is the green Brainstorm...

[sdematt]

GSZ is VERY good. I beg to differ about it being the BEST card, it's one of the tools to get out your best cards. It's a really good card among a group of good cards.

@ Tracker

So here's how I used Tracker for profit.

In Round 1 against Mono Black Aggro, I was able to use Tracker to have Abyssal Persecutor and Knight fight, otherwise I'd be unable to actually kill a flying creature until I hit removal (which I didn't).

Using Deathtouch Wolves off Garruk to fight Vampire Nighthawks was also key, considering throwing my Knight under the bus to take out a really good blocker seems awful.

In the Goblins matchup, I was able to knock out Piledrivers with the triggers on the stack, or Chieftains at end of main, etc. It was critical because it essentially provided me with another wall. It was like having two Knights attacking or blocking, especially with little things, allowing me to take out the random garbage. It's a reusable removal spell, and then Ooze nicely cleans up the mess. Swords doesn't play well with Ooze, but Tracker does.

In the Stoneblade matchup, it not only beat for one, but also stayed back and provided support in case they flashed in a blocker, allowing me to actually get in there. They have few creatures, and so do we. The more turns that I can't directly attack their Jace are more turns where I'm more likely to lose. Destroying a blocking creature to get in for 3-10 damage is really good, and sometimes the turn is all that you need. It can also force their hand regarding SFM activations and combat tricks. In one case, I had Dryad Arbor fight a Vendilion Clique that was going to kill me eventually, but didn't have removal for. I killed Snapcasters, Factories, SFM, etc. Tracker itself becomes a Knight/Goyf/Ooze.

Plus, it's nice to be able to GSZ for it. It chump blocks, too.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Seems like Uvenwald covers a lot of the ground that SFM does, providing utility, flexibility, options, and tricks. Thus, I have a feeling that Uvenwald is PERFECT for your version, and other SFM-less Rock decks.

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- Once again I am sorry for my responses yesterday. I was sitting at Four Peaks Brewery in Tempe, enjoying the fact that I was turning into a internet troll... I was not helping any discussion no matter how I feel on the topic. Thank you for your maturity in not letting the conversation degrade further:p

On Tracker- Tracker is insane in testing and has the amazing benefit of being searchable for GSZ. The problem is now that we have hit an uncomfortable number of GSZ targets, as one of's, and now have to decide witch match ups we don't want a silver bullet against main board. Between Tracker, Teeg, Ooze, Pridemage(witness, terravore, thrun) our silver bullets are getting quite diversified.

On GSZ- I am fully supporting the 4 GSZ builds right now, the card is insane in all stages of the game it is like a brainstorm that plays the card you find(and its always the best card for the situation!)

On Planeswalkers- Garruk vs Liliana They are both houses against similar decks RUG and Stoneblade, but Liliana is better against combo and reanimator while Garruk is better against random aggro decks that are running around the format. It is a choice once again based on what you will be seeing in tourney play. I prefer Lilliana with the one of life from the loam as a sustainability engine and for the fact that I play a shit ton of RUG and Maverick and 3 is easier to get to that 4, by a long shot....

Sughay- When you run 5 virtual pridemages artifacts and enchantments become less of a bother. I run volrath's stronghold to recur the bugger(tutor-able by knight!) to ensure equipment can always go straight to hell. After that you have swords to plowshares, in every build, and tracker to handle creatures. This leaves 2-4 flex spots that some people put pulse or vindicate in to ensure they have the super versatile answers at all times.

[Sughayyer]

@ Everyone supporting gsz

You've all seen my list. I want to fit in 2 gsz (I feel 2 is enough, with all the tops, bobs, library etc). With gsz I want to add (at least for now) tracker and qasali (ooze too, but it can come later). Suggestions on what to take away? Entering zenith (and also dryad arbor) I know I can run 23 lands. So that's one land less. I know I can take away 1 goyf too, and maybe 1 vindicate. The second vindicate I run would become the third pulse.
so now I have: +2 gsz +1 qasali +1 tracker, but -1 land -1 vindicate -1 goyf... still have to take something away. I considered dropping hymn for pinpoint because in my view, hymn is either 4 or 0, but it is really a fantastic card... maybe drop 1 reliquary and play 3? I'm not confortable with that. All suggestions are welcome!!! However, tomorrow I'll probbly have to paly with my traditional list, since it may take some time for me to get the gsz (it's really hard to find here).

[ryn ball_2]

I agree w/ the inclusion of GSZ, when i'm using the somewhat classic build i experienced it can be aggressive in turn 1 plays and can throw bunch of disruptions and pernament kills in early to mid game but there are times that i drew irrelevant things w/c i wish to drew a creatures just to finish him off, you know that feeling that you MUST land a creature to gain field advantage esp massive big KOTR, goyf etc. Plus i'm a kind of player that i need some answers to kind of situation like against dredge gsz for ooze or kotr to have an active kotr to bog nxt turn, against enchantment where qasali shines from gsz even or w/o pulse in hand and etc.. Anyways the inclusion of that card somewhat complete not topdecking skills to drew creatures :)

In my current list
4 bob
4 kotr
2 sfm
2 ooze
1 goyf
1 thrun
1 qasali
1 arbor
along w/ 2 GSZ

[lavafrogg]

Sugah- From your list I would go -4 hymn +4 1cc discard(bringing you to 6 1cc discard spells) -1 vindicate -1 Lilliana +2 GSZ +1 Ooze +1 Tracker.

The tracker means you need less board control due to its ability and ooze replaces the long term value of the planeswalker by providing the end to the opponents recursion strategies.

All in all I would more towards a list more like sdematts list as you can afford the cards.

For what it is worth this is my non-loam list right now(still has a loam...):

Doods(15):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tracker
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage

Spells(15):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 IoK
4 GSZ
1 Life from the Loam

Stuff(6):
3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond

Lands(24):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith/Karakas
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dryad Arbor

Board:
3 Krosan Grips
2 Zealous Persecutions
3 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Karakas

Dumb Idea: is Glissa, the Traitor a playable card? I'm trying to find reasons to play Rock over Maverick that will appeal to the masses, Glissa as a GSZ target with 3x EE seems like a good start... She fucks up everything in maverick. She would add more reasons to play 3x metamorph in the board for reanimator/sneak...

[Thorondor]

atm I would run something like that:


\\ creatures (16)
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor

\\ Spells(13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

\\ good to have(10):
1 Batterskul
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond

Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog


maybe go -1 SFM +1 Knight, only mabye. And yes I know these are 61 cards, but what to cut? It is maybe between SFM and Tracker or Bird.

Not sure about anything, especially the SB. Things to consider:

Choke, Teeg, Darkblast, Thalia, Surgical, Timely Reinforcments, Deed, Iok, Duress, Hymn, Diabolic Edict, Dismember, Engineered Plague, EEs, Ethersworn Canonist, Garruk Relentless, Enlightened Tutor Package....

edit: are humility and peacekeeper reasonable SB-cards and maybe also Elspeth?

[Sughayyer]

@lavafrog
I see you don't run spot removals like vindicate or pulse. Are qasali's recursion (via stronghols) plus tracker enough?

@thorondor
I run elspeth on side, it is a great asset. I also run tutor package: conversion (auto-win vs burn) deed, plague, etc. Still missing the choke, tho :/

[Sughayyer]

@frogg

On glissa: recursive EE, spellbombs, etc sounds nice. Plus she has first strike and deathtouch and I don't have to explain how good this is. If you find a way to make her work in this deck, let me know!

On liliana:
she recursively does what 2/3 of our deck does: discard and removal (the other 1/3 is throwing fat guys on the field). I'll test your suggestions, but in whatever case I'll probably keep running 2 of them

[sdematt]

Humility is not the right way to go. All of our value creatures become dead. If you're looking for fatty hate, try Tariff, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith, Karakas, etc.

Pick up your Chokes, they're like $1 each! :)

-Matt

[Angels]

I saw an interesting match on the South Florida Legacy stream where the Maverick player used Tsunami against Stoneblade. For one extra mana, we can deal with their islands in play permanently instead of hoping that our choke will not get disenchanted. We can do 1 Choke and 1 Tsunami or is that one extra mana a killer in the sideboard?

[Sughayyer]

@angels:
the point on playing choke is that it can be fetched by e. tutor. Risking a disenchat is not quite a problem - they'll have to search for it, with a crippled manabase.

[Angels]

@angels:
the point on playing choke is that it can be fetched by e. tutor. Risking a disenchat is not quite a problem - they'll have to search for it, with a crippled manabase.
If you look at majority of the rock decks here, they dont have an E. Tutor package. So it's really the luck of drawing it.

Edit:
Forgot to mention that revealing it with Bob makes you lose one more life.

[militiaman89]

So on monday i said i was going to my weekly tuesday legacy tournament and was going to run this list.
4 STP
4 BOb
4 KotR
2 Green sun
1 tarmogoyf
1 qasali
1 teeg ( miracle control is big now and recks us)
1 ooze
3 inquisition
2 thought seize
3 pulse
2 stoneforge
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 library
2 top
3 mox diamond
24 land

I did run this list and with great success going 3-0-1 and coming in first.

Round 1 martyr control life gain?
This was one of the most annoying decks ive ever played. The first game took 30 min which both our life totals were in the 50's thanks to batterskull. Though I finally did get there. GAme 2 i couldnt draw a seconf land a after a mull to 6 and scooped p the cads to save time. Game 3 we ran out of time i was very pissed as i had a commanding lead in the game.

Round 2 Goblins
Game 1 was pretty simple i put down a first turn jitte then followed with a turn 2 knight it was gg after that
game 2 He went turn 1 lackey i didnt have the white for swords and got blown out it was pretty bad keep on my part
Game 3 I go turn 1 scaveging ooze through mox turn 2 knight which i ripped off the top and drop turn 3 jitte equip swing win

Round 3 u/r delver
This was my deck that i lent to a friend nd i knew it was a hard matchup
I turn 1 inquisiton take his draw source i think ponder? Then go turn 2 tarmogoyf which hits then i just kill his creatures and swing for quick beats till its over always fetching for basics since i know Pop is in the list.
Game 2 He has double delver and lavamanver and makes quick work of me with a few spell peirces to protect hsi guys
Game 3 is the same as game 1 except i land a quick knight then SFM for jitte and win

Round 4 Land tax stax
Game 1 He has ghost quarter, suppression field and chalice on 1. I land knight then GSZ for teeg and he cant armegeddon or wrath I eventually land batterskull and beat him down. During the game I also pulse his mox diamond since he is land light and it signifcantly slowed him down.
Game 2 He starts with chalice on 1. I start with land mox BOB and i know its going be a good game. Then I rip teeg off the confidant play it and continue with beats till its over.

So somethings I like and didnt like
Props
I love gaddock teeg in the main it helped me out of some holes and really pulled its weight. Maelstrom pulse was also amazing everytime I had it at one point the life gain player had out 3 serra ascedant and i did a 3 for 1, goodtimes.
On stoneforge I didnt really draw it all that much I really just always had the jitte in hand or raw drew it and was amzing for me all day.

Slops
To not mulling when I should have
To people playing life gain decks period

[lavafrogg]

@lavafrog
I see you don't run spot removals like vindicate or pulse. Are qasali's recursion (via stronghols) plus tracker enough?

@frogg

On glissa: recursive EE, spellbombs, etc sounds nice. Plus she has first strike and deathtouch and I don't have to explain how good this is. If you find a way to make her work in this deck, let me know!

On liliana:
she recursively does what 2/3 of our deck does: discard and removal (the other 1/3 is throwing fat guys on the field). I'll test


One at a time.

Spot Removal: This deck usually has the biggest creatures on the board, barring another knight/something from aggro loam, so much of the decks creature control revolves around playing bigger men and crashing in. When creature control becomes an issue, that is where you can smartly use your discard and swords to plowshares to keep the board clear. This is also where the tracker or Lilliana have been helping out. If you can keep creature counts down in the early game then Lilliana can break any stalemates or creature strategies in the later turns.

Glissa: I have been looking for a solid reason to run black instead of just dark confidant, discard is not really a reason due to mavericks strong disruption suite, and Glissa might just be the card. I would have to alter my list to include a few artifacts main board (mostly EE) and the board control the 2 card interaction would provide seems like it would wreck most creature decks. With mox diamonds, EE can go all the way up to 4(or 5) and hit Jace/Elspeth. Right now it would be something like -1 tracker(sad face) -1 Lilliana -1 land -1 something +1 Glissa +3 EE. The deck gets very board control like at that point though. I probably need to find a better reason than EE to lay her as of right now.

Lilliana: Lilliana is dumb. I learned this when I was playing a very BGW Aggro Loam style list and the things I learned from that experience are in my Junk list. 4 dark confidants and the 1 life from the loam let you play her +1 all day long, with life from the loam having a huge role in the late game of this deck with the monastery and the stronghold playing the recursion game. Playing Lilliana as a sac a creature, discard a card, sac a creature in this format is killer due to the lack of real card advantage in most decks. She also gives combo decks one more layer of hate to fight through (point discard, Lilliana, plus teeg out of the board, wasteland if it matters) and she wrecks Reanimator by just being on the board (this makes sneak attack the deadlier card out of sneak and show slowing them down). She is really good.

[Mirrislegend]

One of my biggest issues with creature decks in Legacy just smashed me in the face, again.

Snapcaster Mage is a BEATING. They effectively run 8 StP. I got nailed to the wall.

What do we do about Snapcaster Mage? It seems bad, but I'm getting to the point where I may start bring in my Surgical Extractions, just for Mr Tiago Chan

Anyone else have this issue?

[lavafrogg]

On UW Snapcaster mage: Have you tried a Sylvan Safekeeper as a 1 of GSZ target? You don't really need more than 2 lands to operate, depending on how your deck is set up, and he stops every iteration of swords. Between point discard, Ooze, Lilliana/Garruk and how ever many beaters we run, I have never had that great of a problem against Tiago. Usually Jace is the bigger problem.

I guess depending on your list you could use sword of light and shadow or thrunn the last troll(or the angry troll himself), also token generators are really good against Snapcaster Mage decks i.e. Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Sorin...

or super tech- Ground Seal!

[Sughayyer]

Tonight was good and bad. As I got to the store, I was told I've won last month's legacy league, being awarded in $51 (in credits). But in the tournament I performed poorly... Got past reanimator and burn with no issues at all, but I lost to a goblins that simply didn't play lackey, instead he used chrome mox+chalice. Can't explain how disastrous it was. Against merfolk, wrecked his hand, killed his dudes, and never drew a threat. Agains bug it was pretty much the same. I need to fit gsz ASAP, I think it can fix the 'dead' draws....

[lavafrogg]

If you are having consistency issues, I would get to a regular GSZ list as fast as you can. Sylvan Library might also be the most broken card out of green right now with all of the life gain effects you can run.

[Sughayyer]

You are absolutely right. The main reason I don't play gsz is the fact that it's HARD to find. Tracker is a bit hard too. Until I get them, I'll experiment on changes with the things I have. Will keep posting results!

[Thorondor]

you need ONE sylvan library and TWO sensei's divining top, or even TWO sylvan library. I would say these cards win on their own, but actually they don't do anything to the opponent. :cool:

Seriously, you will love them.

[sdematt]

Most recently, the best card choices I've made with this deck were going up to 2 Sylvan Library, 1 Tracker, and 1 Garruk Relentless.

Relentless allows a continues stream of creatures against Stoneblade, and lets you tutor up creatures as well. Scavenging Ooze helps alot against their Snapcasters if you get him on the table and they don't have the Swords in hand. Otherwise, keep tanking out threats if you can. Gaddock Teeg is pretty great in that matchup too, forcing them to remove Teeg before going into Wrath or Jace.

Ground seal could prove an interesting card, but it'd be VERY narrow.

@ Tsunami

The problem with Tsunami is that it costs 4, so if you're trying to gain value against a deck like RUG, you're never going to cast it. Tsunami also hits once, whereas Choke continually clogs their board. We're a slower deck, so I think you want Choke.

@ Sughayyer

Things can happen, I wouldn't worry. Sometimes you just don't draw well, like me against Infect. That's not even a real deck. My worst dual is more than his deck.


-Matt

[Thorondor]

so what about this list, still 61 cards and no Life from the Loam :-/


\\ creatures (15)
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor

\\ Spells(12):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse

\\ good to have(12):
1 Garruk the Relentless
1 Batterskul
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond

Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

[sdematt]

Cut a Bojuka Bog for a Bayou, cut birds of Paradise (since you've already got 3 Mox Diamonds, that's fine) for a Life from the Loam. Boom. Perfect.

-Matt

[Thorondor]

cutting bird for loam might be fine since we want tracker with zenith most of the time. But bojuka bog, sounds strong to me in theory, with loam you can replay it and it can also be good against snapcaster and opposing knight.

In some situation it can be really bad, I know. :rolleyes:

[lavafrogg]

As an alternative to the library/top manipulation I use recursion in Loam/Stronghold. Same concept but slower/more powerful if not disrupted.

[sdematt]

I'm hoping for consistency in land drop, though. I mean, you don't want to open it as your mana producing land :/

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I'm hoping for consistency in land drop, though. I mean, you don't want to open it as your mana producing land :/

-Matt

Mox Diamonds help minimize issues with color screw from my 5-6 colorless/mana less lands. I have been moving away from loam interactions slowly, these are the remains of the whole loam engine from my old list and I feel they are too strong to cut at the moment especially in ensuring land drops.

[Thorondor]

actually I am not really sure if we need loam main, if we have 2 library and 2 top and 4 confidant, we don't need more card advantage or late game option, probably 1 Darkblast main is a nice choice at the moment.

[lavafrogg]

Loam is great in all lists to return wastelanded land in the mid game and also to return fetches and ensure land drops. I use it in more applications in recurring some late game utility lands or breaking the symmetry on Lillianas +1. When running mox diamonds it also helps to have a way to get the land back after time.

Loam interaction: Lilliana, Nantuko Monastery, Volrath's Stronghold, Mox Diamond, Wasteland Recursion.

Card Advantage Engines: 4 Dark Confidant, 1 Life from the Loam, 3 Lilliana of the Veil.

I have near the same amount of card advantage with much more recursion.

[Mirrislegend]

On UW Snapcaster mage: Have you tried a Sylvan Safekeeper as a 1 of GSZ target? You don't really need more than 2 lands to operate, depending on how your deck is set up, and he stops every iteration of swords. Between point discard, Ooze, Lilliana/Garruk and how ever many beaters we run, I have never had that great of a problem against Tiago. Usually Jace is the bigger problem.

I guess depending on your list you could use sword of light and shadow or thrunn the last troll(or the angry troll himself), also token generators are really good against Snapcaster Mage decks i.e. Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Sorin...

or super tech- Ground Seal!

I tested game ones against Miracle Control. I never went the Ooze plan, which may have been the critical mistake. However, each game went like this: I WRECK his hand, yet he answers everything I do via Top manipulation and Snapcaster. In various games, he won straight through SoLS, Lingering Souls, resolved (but StP'd) beaters, and resolved Confidants (again, StP'd).

I'm not sure post board Choke and Teeg will be enough to win this!

[Sughayyer]

@Mirri
These decks usually have a hard time dealing with Thrunn.. you might try it.

[Mirrislegend]

@Mirri
These decks usually have a hard time dealing with Thrunn.. you might try it.

Against the Miracle version, I'll be too busy GSZing for Teeg. But I suppose it's worth trying

[sdematt]

The Miracle versions didn't run Souls token and the like, if I recall correctly. One's Stoneblade, the other's Miracles.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

The Miracle versions didn't run Souls token and the like, if I recall correctly. One's Stoneblade, the other's Miracles.

-Matt

Both play Snapcaster and StP. That's my issue. I can handle the Miracle part of Miracles.dec, and I can handle the Stoneforge part of Stoneblade, but the Snaps + StP is what beats me from both!

[sdematt]

I did have trouble with that before, I remember distinctly, but then I just didn't. I can't even remember why, I just started beating them.

Them seeing so many cards in both versions sucks ass, since we have so few creatures. Is there a creature we can use with Hexproof besides Thrun, or something that makes tokens? God, I wish Spiritmonger was a card again. Not that it has anything to do with this, but just a nostalgia moment.

How I ended up beating my opponent, even though he naturally had his 4 STP (I saw from an Inquisition), was just to keep taking out creatures, one at a time. He has to Swords them all eventually. Eventually, you might be able to reach enough mass of damage to get there. Gaddock Teeg will certainly help, since who do they hit? 8/8 Knight, or 2/2 Teeg? Making them make difficult decisions is ideal.

Sylvan Safekeeper could be an interesting pick, but then you have to GSZ for it, etc. I think if you tie up the manabase with Chokes and such, with enough pressure and flexibility, you should be able to get there.

My suggestions, if you're in a really Miracles/Stoneblade meta, include:

Thrun, the Last Troll
Troll Ascetic
Something maybe that leaves tokens when it dies?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I did have trouble with that before, I remember distinctly, but then I just didn't. I can't even remember why, I just started beating them.

Them seeing so many cards in both versions sucks ass, since we have so few creatures. Is there a creature we can use with Hexproof besides Thrun, or something that makes tokens? God, I wish Spiritmonger was a card again. Not that it has anything to do with this, but just a nostalgia moment.

How I ended up beating my opponent, even though he naturally had his 4 STP (I saw from an Inquisition), was just to keep taking out creatures, one at a time. He has to Swords them all eventually. Eventually, you might be able to reach enough mass of damage to get there. Gaddock Teeg will certainly help, since who do they hit? 8/8 Knight, or 2/2 Teeg? Making them make difficult decisions is ideal.

Sylvan Safekeeper could be an interesting pick, but then you have to GSZ for it, etc. I think if you tie up the manabase with Chokes and such, with enough pressure and flexibility, you should be able to get there.

My suggestions, if you're in a really Miracles/Stoneblade meta, include:

Thrun, the Last Troll
Troll Ascetic
Something maybe that leaves tokens when it dies?

-Matt

Not in a meta for it. Just super worried about it. They beat me through SoLS, Lingering Souls, Dark Confidant, Hymns. I feel like my concerns are justified, despite a solid SB against them.

[lavafrogg]

Here is a case where I fully support choke in the board against a deck. It can land as soon as you draw it and stifles their late game until they find an answer.

I have never had a real problem with UW as they are super mana hungry and we have a wasteland machine in our knights. Ooze is really big in the matchup as is bog if you run one, you can always try to walk a snapcaster into a bog for no value gained.

The more I test the more sylvan library is a lock against all point removal against UW control. you are not in a hurry to race with landdrops so sacrificing one or two to save your team is not a bad trade off. Spellskite would have similar results but is worse against swords than safe keeper.

Planeswalkers are an extreme problem for UW so an Elspeth/Garruk as a 1 of can give them real problems.

Finally, they are super weak to the disruption+ goyf plan that many of you seem to not play. You should be able to disrupt from many angles and when you establish yourself as the beatdown you will be suprized how many times you can get there.

[sdematt]

Oh, by the way:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47595

Yeah, boy.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

AWESOME!!!!! Grats!! I really need to get on the SCG Board you and Ian are both on the radar....

[Angels]

My suggestions, if you're in a really Miracles/Stoneblade meta, include:

Thrun, the Last Troll
Troll Ascetic
Something maybe that leaves tokens when it dies?

-Matt
Caller of the Claw? Very good against Perish/WoG, but doesn't solve the Terminus problem =(

[lavafrogg]

Your whole deck is generally more proactive and aggressive than theirs do I would only bring in things that further that gameplan. Choke is a beating against slower blue decks but they should bring in a disenchant or two to battle it.

Eternal witness is really good, allowing you to keep pressure on the opponent while reusing disruption to stay ahead. Bitter blossom as a 2 of or a sideboard card will keep them behind for the whole game as all of their creatures die to a token or two.

The untargetable creatures make them waste a terminus and can always be searched for again, but token generators just keep pumping.

Lol, ten points if anyone uses kjeldoran outpost to overrun a UW Mage.

[Sughayyer]

@Lavafrogg
You like sacrificing lands don't you? :p
But bitterblossom is an idea. Hey, imagine mana-mox-blossom????? Probably GG.

@Matt
Way to go!!!

[lavafrogg]

Sug- lol, my cure tops out at 3 so my lands become expendable in my mind... I might have a problem... And like I said, ten whole points; outpost is a house as I have found in my UW tempo list. Bitter blossom is a real idea though, proably plays really nicely with the SFM lists, as you will always have a flying equipment holder.

[Mirrislegend]

I wonder why they showed your 47th finish and not my 20th... Still, very awesome, congrats!

[sdematt]

You were there and yet we didn't meet up? Why is this?

I said I was going to SCG Seattle, you should have contacted. You must have seen me, though. I was wearing the black dress shirt with purple tie and black duffle bag.

-Matt