[Deck] The Rock

[lavafrogg]

I just had the best idea for a super long post.... gonna write it on my phone from my girlfriends house, I don't have enough time now... this post is for suspense.

[Thorondor]

aha, interesting.

I play tested yesterday, with the list I posted with minor changes:

against the jesse hattfield Team America, the matchup felt ok, we might have problems to handle delver and tombstalker but most of the time the matchup was ok.

but against maverick it is a different story, somehow I felt behind all the time, even with a turn 1 Confidant which did stick for 3-4 turns, they have so many threads we need to answer: mother, ooze, knight, ....
even my Darkblast main wasnt that much of a help and sometimes I just didn't get enough aggression on the board. Anyone has the same problems?
Maybe I should remove the Mystic/Batterskull/Jitte package and add more Zeniths and fourth Knight ....

this is what I want to try now, any other ideas:


\\ creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg

\\ Spells(13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

\\ good to have(10):
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library


Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

[lavafrogg]

In order to beat a deck, or figure out why you are losing to a peticular list, you have to figure out what that deck does better than you and what you do better than that deck.

With similar lists and strategies, like maverick and junk, the pure list has usually proven to be the better/more consistent list. For example: punishing maverick has fallen to the wayside of straight maverick even though punishing fires is a house against most of the format.

If you are using the same list from a few pages back I can see where you would be having issues with a maverick list.

1. You both run Green Sun Zenith: you run 2 Maverick runs 4. With hierarch accelleration and multiple targets maverick is the better GSZ deck out of the two.

2. You both run Knight of the Reliquary: you run 3 Maverick runs 4. With mother of runes and a more forest/plains manabase maverick is the better Knight deck out of the two.

3. You both run equipment: you run SFM into jitte/batterskull. Maverick either runs 2 jittes or a similar set up than you. With more artifact destruction(pridemage) and creature protection(mom) and more creatures: maverick is the better equipment deck out of the two.

I have been trying to correct problems in the matchup as best as I know how and what I have discovered is that maverick has some weaknesses. You can try and beat the deck on any of the above points to start.

1. With 4 GSZ and consistent targets you can be an equal GSZ deck. The only issue being heirarchs but that can be alleviated by mox diamonds. GSZ for either of you is a threat or an answer, draw more of them and win.

2. With 4 Knight of the Reliquary and an on color bojuka bog you can be an equal Knight deck. With mox diamonds you can start pumping your knight earlier. Whoever draws and activates a knight faster and longer will win.

3. With GSZ maximized to kill artifacts you just need to match numbers with equipment but know that 2 jittes is better than 3 mystics 1 batterskull/1 jitte because in the creature matchups whoever has the jitte active will win. With pulses you can keep jitte off the table but you most likely will not be able to keep your own active. Batterskull is mostly useless in a match where mom exists.

Let's look at the advantages you do have.

1. Card draw: dark confidant is your biggest edge in this matchup. With a modified list he will draw you more GSZ and more knights meaning more utility and more face stomping. The best draw engine in legacy continues to be good in this matchup.

2. Discard: with proactive discard you can hit cards in hand before they can hit the board. Always aim for Swords, GSZ and Knights in that order. They have very middle removal so they play what they do have very carefully.

3. Removal. You play more than 4 swords so as long as you can keep a mother of runes busy chump blocking or keeping her team mates out of fights with bears you will always be able to kill what you want to kill.

4. Lilliana. This is your big trump card in the matchup. She has to be killed by the maverick player right away due to their low card advantage and high utility. She should always start of as a cruel edict and then take a card from everyone taking the second creature is pretty gg at any point in the game as they cannot deal with the hole she digs for them.

That being said, this is another matchup that greatly benifits from the addition of tarmogoyf. Being able to get out of the gates faster than the maverick player is priceless. Besides knight the only thing goyf fears is ooze and if he is being chumped by a mother all day that you will have an easy time GSZ a tracker and killing whatever is hindering you the most.

Usually a breakdown like this is easier with two different archetypes but with similar lists you can see how you feel behind all of the time. After board you need an answer for the biggest problem maverick will give you. Mother of runes. She keeps her knights and oozes away from harm while yours are fair game. While she does not stop you from getting a knight/ooze first and wrecking them she stops you from fighting back when they get their first.

I am also fully advising that players switch from pulse/vindicate in the current meta to engineered explosives. Not only does it wreck maverick handily, it answers entreat tokens, elves, Merfolk, planeswalkers very well. I believe it to be the stronger card at the moment. (with or without glissa which is almost an auto win against maverick as I am learning)

Edit: for some reason I used your list from a few pages ago, I think it is valid as what you were testing.

[Thorondor]

thanks for your great post!

lot of interesting things and I agree in most of the points. Not sure about explosives, but why not try it:


\\ creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor

\\ Spells(13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

\\ good to have(10):
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library


Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

[Mirrislegend]

You were there and yet we didn't meet up? Why is this?

I said I was going to SCG Seattle, you should have contacted. You must have seen me, though. I was wearing the black dress shirt with purple tie and black duffle bag.

-Matt

Sorry for the lack of clarity, wrong side of the country: I meant at SCG Worcester. I placed 20th and see this: 18th through 23rd place are conspicuously missing (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2012-06-03&end_date=2012-06-10&city=worcester&start_num=0&numpage=25)
Also, props on snappy dress at the event. Always dress like you plan to have a winner's photo taken!

@ Thorondor
I beat the living daylights out of Maverick with Hymn. They have ZERO card advantage, just card quality. If you can strain their hand before they have a dominant board position, you're golden. For those wondering, this is why my SB Zealous Persecutions are so good against Maverick: it's card advantage, keeps them from dominating the early game, and killing Hierarchs keeps them from accelerating to good cards (or killing Moms allows you to maintain pressure while they try to hit lands)

[sdematt]

Out of the board, you need to become the "sweep the entire board" deck. They can't bring in much against you, but you can bring in Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, Bojuka Bog, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

They're better at GSZ and protection than you, so proactively use some discard, then blow out their board. It's a very grindy matchup, but you can do it! :)

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Out of the board, you need to become the "sweep the entire board" deck. They can't bring in much against you, but you can bring in Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, Bojuka Bog, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

They're better at GSZ and protection than you, so proactively use some discard, then blow out their board. It's a very grindy matchup, but you can do it! :)

-Matt

Don't let it get grindy. Two nukes should win the entire game: one early, another once they stick approx two real threats. They don't have any card advantage at all, so 2 for 1s (or better) will win the game

[Sughayyer]

Currently my sb is:

2 E. Tutors
2 Deed
1 E. Plague
1 Conversion
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spelbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errand
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Changes that will be made: -1 needle + 1 choke.
elspeth goes to main (I'll play 3 pulse 0 vindicate, or 3 vindicate 0 pulse... I'm favored to pulse so I can have a non-white removal)

Now I have 1 free slot in my board, Thinking about:
a) Second life from the loam, so I can surely find it on the matches it is really needed (lands, mana denial strategies, etc)
b) Infest - no need to explain how nice it is agains many aggro/tribal decks
c) E. Plague - If I had the second one, I'd have won that match I lost from goblins, even with chalice (void) at 1 from him (and that's what cost me the game, even with 1 plague on)

Infest is broader than plague and wrecks gw, plague can be tutored.

[lavafrogg]

I have been playing zealous persicution this past week or so and have not been happy with it in many instances. EE or infest do the same thing but hit decks much harder. I don't feel we are that behind maverick to have to play such a narrow card when perish/virtues rain hit just as hard if not harder.

Maverick does not do anything flashy and instant speed that merits an instant speed response. The glissa has been very entertaining to say the least. I wish she had some sort of self protection to make her über rediculous... But you can't have it all.

[Mirrislegend]

The biggest reason I play Zealous Persecution is that it doesn't ever hit any of my creatures. Also, I don't need to destroy everything on their board: I favor Zealous because it hit's Thalia, MoM, and Scryb Ranger (all of which I HATE) and hits hierarch (so they no longer win critter stalemates). Also, it's a useful combat trick, which is just another way to gain some CA over them

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- I'm no saying that it zealous doesn't wreck a good portion of the maverick list, what I am saying is that it is not a broad enough answer in today's metagame. The card has few applications in other matchups where a stronger board control card infest/EE can perform just as well against maverick, killing their weenies, while having strong value in other matchups.

Zealous is a very good card and was better when lingering souls was being played in every decks 75.

P.S. I am playing 3 in the board right now.

On SFM- everyone please refer to the Bryant Cook article on GP Atlanta where h talks about SFM being too much of a non tempo card to play it in UW Fish.

[sdematt]

The reason why it's also good is if you're facing a bunch of Stoneblade. I switched it from Dread of Night since it also has application in the Goblins/Elves matchups, which are becoming more and more popular. It's general anti-small creature hate.

Depending on your meta, this could be a different card. Perish here doesn't cover Goblins or Stoneblade, but does cover Maverick and Elves. Zealous doesn't do the destruction job the best, it does the most matchups the best. Hitting 4 decks instead of 1-2 is why I've switched to it (for now). However, if I saw zero Goblins and Elves, I'd run Dread and Ruin all day long, like I did before.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I think you should go back to your 9 card anti maverick board. It always entertained me;)

[sdematt]

My sideboard games were always fun against Maverick...for me at least :P

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

went 36th place (4-3) in a 79-man legacy tourney yesterday, here's my list
4 bob
4 kotr
2 sfm
2 ooze
1 goyf
1 qasali
1 thrun
1 arbor

4 seize
3 pulse
2 gsz

4 stp

2 sdt
3 mox d
1 jitte
1 batterskull

1 liliana of the veil

2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept
1 marsh flats
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy

//sb
2 deed
2 e plague
2 choke
3 duress
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic edict

R1 vs GW maverick: 1-2

R2 vs doomsday combo: 2-0

R3 vs pox: 0-2 (this deck is so annoying against creature based deck, he totally wrecked me :frown:)

R4 vs sneak show: 1-2 (this is so freaking freaking round, i should have won this when i realized my critical misplay :frown:)

R5 vs reanimator: 2-0 yehey! 2 void FTW

R6 vs white winnie: 2-0

R7 vs burn: 2-1 :laugh:

Conclusion:
1) NO TRIBAL in my matches, my plague is just a waste of space
2) GSZ package is way to go
3) sfm, still thinking here, i fully utilized sfm tools when i faced burn other than that not so necessary to have them i rather have some pulse/stp/creature, anyways still debating to continue this package
4) 4 LOTV, totally questionable after the tournament i only faced 1 GY-based deck, not totally worth it, maybe it is better to have mix of GY hate just be so flexible
5) freaking misplays made me sick

thanks everybody!

[lavafrogg]

Im so jealous you have a 79 man tourney to play at... Arizona sucks. Grats on your winning record and I wish you did better!

I detailed a few posts back on why people are losing to Maverick and it still applies now. You can either alter your main board or go crazy on sideboard hate. If you don't you are just a worse version of Maverick.

Referencing your points:

1. Oddly enough, the engineered plagues should have came in for the Maverick matchup. in for 2 of your thoughtsiezes, naming human you can fuck up much of their support( Mom, Hierarch, Thalia)

2. GSZ is the nuts and you should run 4.

3. Continue your testing but 3-4 goyf is almost a requirement.

4. With knight>bog and GSZ>ooze you already have a plethora of mid-late game grave hate. You just need something to interact with the yard on turns 0-2. Most people either play Surgical Extraction, for its utility, or Tormod's Crypt, for its power. 4 leyline is only if you really want to never lose to dredge...:/

5. What did you do? I'm interested now:p

[Valtrix]

Any lists running knight of the reliquary and not Volrath's Stronghold seem wrong...

[lavafrogg]

Any lists running knight of the reliquary and not Volrath's Stronghold seem wrong...

+1

I have been saying that for weeks, people disagree with the popularity of Scavenging Ooze... Fuck that card.

[sdematt]

I've never felt like I needed Stronghold. Most of the time, my stuff is getting RFG'd, and only in counter-heavy games would Stronghold be necessary. It could easily be a sideboard slot against Control, for sure.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

With an active knight, I always love fetching my stronghold to recur any blockers or pridemages I have in the yard every turn, It really helps is creature based match-ups any any time where a pridemage every other turn(depending on mana) would be needed (equipment, tier 3 decks).

Damion- where have you been?

[Valtrix]

I've never felt like I needed Stronghold. Most of the time, my stuff is getting RFG'd, and only in counter-heavy games would Stronghold be necessary. It could easily be a sideboard slot against Control, for sure.

I mean, you're not giving up a ton of deck space to play it as a 1-of, and it can win the game on it's own in certain matchups, and is tutorable. Sure, people play RFG effects, but you can't convince me that none of your creatures are going to the graveyard.

And for Scavenging Ooze...Whatever. I mean, It's not like stronghold is useless just because some people happen to play ooze and happen to get it sometimes. And hey, if somebody has to Zenith for it, well then you've forced them to Zenith for a specific target, which is good by reducing their options.

[damionblackgear]

With an active knight, I always love fetching my stronghold to recur any blockers or pridemages I have in the yard every turn, It really helps is creature based match-ups any any time where a pridemage every other turn(depending on mana) would be needed (equipment, tier 3 decks).

Damion- where have you been?

I'm still here, reading.

I don't have much to say on the subject of Stronghold other than I don't feel like cutting a Wasteland or Maze right now so it's not hitting my 75. Both lands are pulling their weight more than I feel a stronghold would do. I'd rather have Elspeth or Garruk (currently testing both) to produce creatures than stunt my draw with stronghold (No Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness in my 75).

Honestly, I've been thinking of Sigarda or Garruk Relentless as the control solution. Sigarda's very strong vs a lot of the format (Hexproof, Evasive, and 5/5) and backed with a karakas she should be invincible. Garruck produces an endless stream of beaters which is difficult for control to deal with.

On the Stongeforge 'should be cut'/'is bad' and everyone should use Goyf topic - I've said my piece a while back (Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=655630&viewfull=1#post655630)). If someone says something relevant or produces an arguement, that I feel is valid (and not repetitive), I'll jump back into that hornet's nest. :smile:

[Mirrislegend]

I'm still here, reading.

I don't have much to say on the subject of Stronghold other than I don't feel like cutting a Wasteland or Maze right now so it's not hitting my 75. Both lands are pulling their weight more than I feel a stronghold would do. I'd rather have Elspeth or Garruk (currently testing both) to produce creatures than stunt my draw with stronghold (No Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness in my 75).

Honestly, I've been thinking of Sigarda or Garruk Relentless as the control solution. Sigarda's very strong vs a lot of the format (Hexproof, Evasive, and 5/5) and backed with a karakas she should be invincible. Garruck produces an endless stream of beaters which is difficult for control to deal with.

On the Stongeforge 'should be cut'/'is bad' and everyone should use Goyf topic - I've said my piece a while back (Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=655630&viewfull=1#post655630)). If someone says something relevant or produces an arguement, that I feel is valid (and not repetitive), I'll jump back into that hornet's nest. :smile:

On the goyf thing, I think everyone just agreed to disagree. I still stand by Stoneforge as the solution to creature decks. However, I am testing upping my Goyf count, and I'll share my results once I have results.

As far as an endless stream of beaters, I think Elspeth, Knight Errant is a much better choice. She wins the game, whereas Garruk just slows it down. Yes, double white is a pain in the ass, but the clock and inevitability she provides is through the roof.

As far as the control MUs go, Sigarda doesn't really solve our problem. She's only one critter that fails to dominate the board, and due to her high casting cost, she doesn't provide a clock (including the time to play her). If you're playing Stoneforge, Lingering Souls is a BLOWOUT against control. Also, Hymn is so much fun to cast against control. You can see on their faces how hopes and dreams crumbling to dust :)

[sdematt]

I beg to differ at Garruk.

a) Producing endless 2/2's is better than 1/1 Soldiers, just comparing that.

b) Mana cost is easier to get. 3G is way better than 2WW

c) Less chance of it actually getting Legend-ruled (not super relevant, but somewhat)

d) 1/1 Deathtouch Wolves change combat math completely. At some point, you have some Deathtouch Wolves stay back, and some continuously attack. They literally cannot block them, so you're actually sitting there attacking whatever you need to.

e) Elspeth does, however, work up to something while getting in there with flying and +3/+3. I think with Equipment, this evasion could be better than Garruk.

f) With Ulvenwald Tracker, Wolves take down Knights.

g) You can easily use Garruk's Overrun with few creatures in the yard, since all you really care about is the Trample. Your Knight will be huge anyway.

h) Tutoring for a creature by saccing a token is great. Searching for Ooze, Tracker, Goyf, Qasali essentially means you have another Survival/GSZ.

Those are my thoughts. I've added a 1-of Garruk and have never looked back. Now that I've added Tracker, he's just THAT much nuttier.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

As you had mentioned Sigarda's cost, 5 is not that much vs a control deck (Especially seeing is you will have time). It also, due to hexproof, is immune to most removal available (including Jace and Swords). They will have to counter her going down (in which case he higher casting cost should have allowed you to bait counters from them already) or wipe the board. I believe it was you who mentioned 8 Swords being the issue against those decks...
...Snapcaster Mage is a BEATING. They effectively run 8 StP. I got nailed to the wall... Mind you, against any variant of UW, you will be able to protect her via Karakas. Provided, you protect it.

[sdematt]

Hm, I was under the impression Sigarda didn't have protection. This is super interesting now. This is a a better Thrun, in a sense.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Agreed. Still, the mana price seems a little steep. Seems like Sigarda, Thrun, and Troll Ascetic are all very worth testing

Holy crap Sigarda flies. Maybe the price tag IS worth it!

[Sughayyer]

Hey guys! Today is holiday in my country, so I attended to a tournament at the local shop I use to go.

Ran the list:

2 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
3 mox diamond
2 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan lybrary
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight errand

lands (24)

4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

Side:
2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 infest
1 nihil spellbomb
1 conversion
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
2 life from the loam
1 duress
1 inquisition of kozilek

went 3-0-1 and won the tournament.

A brief report:
Round 1: BW no friends (smallpox, sinkhole, braids, etc)
g1: I mull to 5 searching for lands, and keep with a karakas. Got wastelanded, sinkholed, he cast a crucible, I concede since he had his board assembled.
g2: I'm on the play, begin with discard, goyf, liliana. He gets braids on the field, but I had already a karakas, so it never did harm. He tutors for a The Abyss wich slows me down, but 2 goyf were smashing him a lot.
g3: He had no relevant threats, but he managed to get a the abyss and a moat. This slows me enough and time called.
0-0-1

Round 2: BW Deadguy Ale
g1 I'm on the play, I cast inquisition on him and see a top, a plowshares, a vindicate, 2 lands, and an inquisition. Next turn I cast a goyf (I had 2 goyf, 1 knight and 1 pulse), then another discard, and he never finds land.
g2 he plays plains and passes, I open with seize on his bob. he casts blossom, and I discard a perish. He plays land and passes, I cast plague, then tourach, then goyf, then reliquary.

1-0-1

Round 3: Spiral Tide

I'm like "really? boo" but it was surprisingly good.
G1 I open with a disapointing and dispretentious mana-mox-goyf. then reliquary. (not a single disrupt at this point).
then I finally get a seize, and discard his time spiral. He tries to go off, even without TS, but he fizzles up.
g2 I deliver 2 hymns and a liliana. Too late... he managed to get a high tide and a time spiral, and after a long, long turn he wins.
g3 I open poorly, with only one seize. I cast seize, then goyf, then I tutor for a spellbomb. he tries to cast a time spiral, but I remove his grave. he gets a clumsy hand, and has to start over. that gave me enough time to kill him.
2-0-1

Round 4: TES

Battle-hardened against the previous combo match I wasn't so scared.
g1 I'm on the play, with mana, mox, 2 discards, then goyf, waste, then liliana ftw
g2 I lost on turn 1. simple as that.
g3 I open with discard, mox, next turn a reliquary, he was short on mana. I wanted to keep this advantage and buy time (I discarded his only cantrip) so I wasted his fetch. He cracked it, then I fetched another waste with my reliquary for his land and played another knight. by now the knights were 9/9.
next turn I swing, as he fails to draw land, then after he draws, he scoops.

3-0-1 and $ 110 in credits \o/

I'm still accepting suggestions. After the tournament, I played against an esper Miracles (basically UW miracles with nice options for side and 3 EE main deck) and it was a TERRIBLE match.
I'm still thinking about reverting to 23 lands, but I have no idea on wich to take away, and if elspeth is still playable with that land count.
ah, @Matt: I understand everything you said about garruk vs elspeth, but elspeth decides games faster than garruk.
Still suggestions accepted on my deck, and thanks for all your help!

[sdematt]

@ Esper Miracles

I've seen the decklists for it on TK Decks, and yeah, it doesn't seem like the greatest matchup. We have few threats and no countermagic, which is basically what they're preying upon. It's definitely not the easiest matchup, but stuff like Sigarda and Planeswalkers will go a long way, as will control elements and discard strategies to push stuff like Choke through their web.

I'll proxy it up when I get the chance and try to grind 50 or so games against it and see what's what.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

OMG GRATS!!!!!

I really like the 2/1 planeswalker split as I am experimenting with a 2/1 Lilliana/Garruk right now:)

1)It sounds like goyf was hot and hymn was not, is that what you are discovering or was it just the draws the deck gave you?

2) No fourth confidant? is it a availability issue?

3) No GSZ? I imagine it is the same problem as confidant...

4) How did your sideboard treat you?

5) Grats on the win!!!

[Sughayyer]

@lavafrogg
goyf was hot, as in all matches I played I needed a fast threat. Hymn was hot too, it just happen to be better on the play than on the draw.
About the missing cards and my current build, yeah it's all about availability. It's easier to find the fourth bob than a pair of gsz :s.
The sideboard has always been working fine... We have a lot of options.
I missed the third top (was using only 2 and I got one only in 1 game).

[Mirrislegend]

Nihil Spellbomb against Spiral Tide seems awkward. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction have value in removing their good spells, but Nihil barely does anything.

How was Infest for you?

GSZs dropped like a rock locally. 5 dollar card now. I really believe it's critical to own a set and at the current price there's no better time than now.

Beating Miracles requires Choke. I suppose Gaddock Teeg is optional, but I would never play without it.

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend:
I DO run extirpate and surgical, however I had tons of dead cards against spiral tide, like plowshares and pulse. In that sense, it is "less worse" to bring up the tutors (at least I could fetch the spellbomb, top, whatever).
That play was really awkward, but when you have no disruptions and you see your opponent is relying on time spiral, and he played a lot of his cantrips already, it starts looking like a good idea.
My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).
cracking the spellbomb when he attempted the time spiral won me the game btw, since he had nothing to shuffle and he drew a hand of lands and counterspells (and by this time I had already goyf and knight).

About GSZ dropping: Price is not an issue. Availability is. Still on gsz issue, of course, if you use it, you can put a ton of interesting things in your deck, like tracker, qasali, teeg, finks, etc., and this may put the deck in a better position, of course.
EDIT:
About infest: I didnt have the chance to play it. A fellow GW player just told me he played against it once and it was most unpleasant for him, so I guess it's still valid :). I's gonna be either this infest or a second plague, but I'm more towards infest.

[Thorondor]

@Mirrislegend:

My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).


just to clear it up, i am sure you mean -3 maelstrom pulse, playing 7 stps sounds strong. :D
Gratz to you! Always nice to see Rock perform well!

[Sughayyer]

Ahaha that's right Thorondor I messed up. -3 pulse -4 stp :tongue:

[Valtrix]

My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).

From your list above, I would have changed this SB strategy a little bit. Pulse is actually still worthwhile, since they often will need to play candelabra to maximize their mana before they go off. You forgot you had Maze of ith in the main, which should be taken out before a pulse even if it makes the moxes a little worse. Additionally, I would probably take out the Elspeth before a pulse simply to hit candelabra, since Elspeth is pretty slow.

Also, since you're running a tutor board, you should consider some other targets like Nevermore or Ethersworn Canonist. Canonist on top of the discard plan should let you beat combo reliably, and nevermore is great for naming a lot of troublesome cards (Jace, Terminus, combo pieces, etc).

[Sughayyer]

@Valtrix
Very few High Tides use candelabra, since it's almost impossible to find, expensive, and the deck works very well without them. Even if that were the case, a good player would most likely play the candelabra in his turn, after he's played the high tide, thus rendering pulse useles.
About the side, I agree with Canonist, but the SB is already way tight... but it would be a great asset, undoubtedly.

[Mirrislegend]

@Valtrix
Very few High Tides use candelabra, since it's almost impossible to find, expensive, and the deck works very well without them. Even if that were the case, a good player would most likely play the candelabra in his turn, after he's played the high tide, thus rendering pulse useles.
About the side, I agree with Canonist, but the SB is already way tight... but it would be a great asset, undoubtedly.

You are correct about a good Candelabra player

I think you can cut those Loams from your SB. What matchup are those useful in? You lose to RUG before you can use Loams to stabilize, and there's no other point to the card here. -2 Loam, -1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Extirpate, +2 Canonist

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend
You are right. I'm too afraid of a single 43-lands deck in my meta, and the moxen are already good against it. You are right about RUG as well. These are good cards but are occupying precious space.

[Mirrislegend]

@Mirrislegend
You are right. I'm too afraid of a single 43-lands deck in my meta, and the moxen are already good against it. You are right about RUG as well. These are good cards but are occupying precious space.

Extirpate/Surgical Extraction beat lands.dec. And they do more! They double as GY hate and combo hate: DESTROY lands.dec, Dredge, and any storm combo. It even hits Reanimator (just eat whichever creature they're targeting. Yes, I know there's unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in the deck, but it still wastes their reanimation attempt). And I'll be testing them against UW control (eff you, Snaps into StP!). The only GY hate in my board is my set of Surgical Extractions (wish they were Extirpates, but Surgicals are useable in any deck I make, so I got more value for the money) and I have no regrets about it!

[sdematt]

A set of Extirpates is like $20-25.

-Matt

[Valtrix]

@Valtrix
Very few High Tides use candelabra, since it's almost impossible to find, expensive, and the deck works very well without them. Even if that were the case, a good player would most likely play the candelabra in his turn, after he's played the high tide, thus rendering pulse useles.

I disagree. With the amount of discard that your deck is running and the limited number of untap effects spiral tide runs, they will probably want to play at least one out if they have it so it's not stripped from their hand. At the very least, pulse has got to be better than a maze of ith. I mean, neither are probably that great against them anyway.

As for making room for canonist, I don't think it's hard. Taking out a life from the loam is an easy first step, so I agree on that.

[Mirrislegend]

Fingers crossed that Legacy fires tonight. It definitely will tomorrow. Either way, the events will be small. But I'll try to keep you all updated on the performance

[sdematt]

Legacy did not fire for us last night, unfortunately. It was 28C outside, and I think people collectively decided that doing things outside > Legacy.

-Matt

[Julian23]

Are you talking about Magic Online? Have events started firing at least once in a blue moon again lately?

[sdematt]

I'm talking about weekly Legacy in my area, I'm not exactly sure what Mirri is talking about.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I could't attend to the legacy tournament today =/... I hope that store will hold legacy events this weekend despite the grand prix happening, so I can play saturday o/

[Artlee]

Are you talking about Magic Online? Have events started firing at least once in a blue moon again lately?

Its a shame, I was about to throw my money at mtgo for a legacy deck, but as it looks now it will never see any DE play anyway. I assume there are more legacy players on mws/cockatrice.

[damionblackgear]

Has anyone given any resent thought to Grave-Shell Scarab? It was a thought for a while but the cost and lack of raw power turned people down. It's not the worst considering the way the format is right now and that we can actually get to that cost. Even 6 (Zenith) against the control decks shouldn't be too much.

Why?
- It dodges both Swords and Terminus.
- You can 'protect' it from GY hate with a Top, Library, and/or Horizon Canopy.
- It's a 4/4 so it can not only fight but also provide a clock when un-opposed.
- It's fine to discard
- You can remove single cards out of your deck that you don't need anymore
- It's Green (GSZ)

[Artlee]

Using Green Sun for 6 is not as easy as you make it sound in my opinion. Most decks have changed from 50/50 splitting Spell Snare and Spell Pierce for the full playset of Spell Pierce, not to mention Daze. Even then you need to have 1 more mana for sacrificing it.

If there is one equipment that is being used in either main or sideboard, besides batterskull and umezawa's jitte, it's Sword of Feast and Famine.

4/4 is a clock, but at 5 cmc it's a rather late clock.

[damionblackgear]

Using Green Sun for 6 is not as easy as you make it sound in my opinion. Most decks have changed from 50/50 splitting Spell Snare and Spell Pierce for the full playset of Spell Pierce, not to mention Daze. Even then you need to have 1 more mana for sacrificing it.

If there is one equipment that is being used in either main or sideboard, besides batterskull and umezawa's jitte, it's Sword of Feast and Famine.

4/4 is a clock, but at 5 cmc it's a rather late clock.

GSZ@5 has a cost of 6.

You're using it as a card to come in against control (Same as Sigarda I mentioned earlier) so you've got the extra time to draw those lands. The good thing is that, as I mentioned before, when you're playing spells that late, you're usually able to have baited the counters out and forced your opponent to top-deck the new ones (and keep up a relevant hand) or lose.

Spell pierce is nice but it'll typically be brainstormed back to the top at you having 6 lands and Daze from a control deck is suicide. If you're playing the daze control deck beyond Round 1, something went horribly wrong or they got incredibly lucky. About the only counters I would be expecting that late is pure Counterspell and Force.

Also, at the 6th turn, everything's a late clock. That goes without saying. But a clock, is a clock, however. I'd rather be swinging for 4 than 2 or less (which is the limit of power for a majority of the creatures in my 75).

You're basically going to be using this against either Nic Fit - It allows you something large that can be reoccur'd and can't be deeded off to allow an easy swing. Also, they'll Ramp you to 6+ if you play your lands correctly. - and Miracle Whip - which is an abysmal match up when it comes down to it because, they're a deck of top-decks. That's something discard cant' beat.

------

On SoFF - I feel that this is actually one of the weakest swords available. We already have Lili, who does everything useful it does. In order of an overall for legacy (not thinking of what deck) I would rank the swords: SoFI, SoLS, SoBM, SoFF, SoWP. The 1st 3 are leagues ahead of the last 2.

Why do I think it's bad?

Discarding is something that most decks don't depend on and the ones that do already have the advantage of having a discard that finishes as removal and lifegain (every damage she takes is life you've essentially gained) all at the same time.

Untapping lands isn't as useful as it may seem. Yes, you can play more spells but most legacy decks have a cheap average CC meaning that if they draw a land or two extra they can play extra spells (but they typically don't want to since they'll get more advantage holding things most of the time). If it's in regards to counters that people are referencing, "THIS IS LEGACY!!!" (Please use your 300 voice, it makes it so much more fun). The counters of this format are typically free. And if you had the Sword of X and Y in your list, chances are you have SFM. That means you can drop them at instant speed (when it's safe) or keep them in hand if you need the counter. For us, it doesn't do anything. If you play sword and swing, that means that you had at least 4 mana. Why not just kill the thing and have something else useful in hand instead of play, equip, swing, untapp, kill. is forcing them to discard and killing a body (which had to tapped or Black/green) that important?

Pro Black and/or Green isn't that useful anyway unless you play against us where it's only moderately helpful. That is, seeing as our main removal is Swords and, most lists are running Pridemage in addition to their Vindicates/Pulses to make sure those pesky swords don't get out of hand. So you essentially only average 1 card from a non-control deck where Lili just outshines in just about every way possible...

[Sughayyer]

That may sound ultimately silly and unsinergycal but.... how about tombstalker? Bad call?
Sigarda looks great. If too much uw "does nothing" start appearing in my meta I'll probably use one.

I came to notice that terminus is far worse vs a GSZ deck. GSZ is recursive, and you'll just have to fetch the creature back. seems nice.

[Thorondor]

don't see how a terminus vs rock putting back ooze, dryad arbor and confidant is "far worse", it is often a 1 for 3 for them and put us so far behind that we can't come back.

[Mirrislegend]

Miracle Whip - which is an abysmal match up when it comes down to it because, they're a deck of top-decks. That's something discard cant' beat.

I'm convinced we can beat them if we can keep them from dominating the board completely. That's why I'm gonna try those Surgical Extractions. Once the 8x StP are out of the way, they can't control the field effectively without Terminus. And we all know how to play around sweepers


On SoFF - I feel that this is actually one of the weakest swords available. We already have Lili, who does everything useful it does. In order of an overall for legacy (not thinking of what deck) I would rank the swords: SoFI, SoLS, SoBM, SoFF, SoWP.

SoFI is an INSANELY good card. But I'm not sure how relevant it is for us. When I ran it, it directly won maybe two games, out of many many many. I switched to SoLS and it's already directly won me 3 games, and I've played way fewer games with it.

Recurring creatures is INSANE, so I can often bait blocking with SoLS (and if they chose not to, free critters!). Also, pro-StP and pro-Gristlebrand is nice. The 3 life is not the most efficient lifegain available to us, but it is still good, allowing you to swing and decrease the impact of the swing-back.

[damionblackgear]

Mirrislegend - I agree. There are typically more cases in the current meta that, for us, SoLS is better than SoFI. I, however, admit I would not have thought about Griselbrand blocking with SoLS as it is a random occurring to have both Bird and sword (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzcLQRXW6B0&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s) on the field.

My rankings though were based on a general Legacy basis and not our own deck. Depending on the deck the order switches but, I hold my earlier statement to be truthful according to my eyes.
... The 1st 3 are leagues ahead of the last 2.

My thoughts Sigarda vs Scarab - Post casting (vs Miracle Whip), once you have lands up, Scarab is probably the better choice as it dodges Terminus as well as Swords. The Hexproof can be outdone with cost of the ability (sac ability is part of the draw cost so they can't re-target with a second removal spell until it's been re-cast) and the no sac can be lightly matched against the No-Sacrifice clause. The flying and 5/5 are the only things matched but at that point in the game, 5/5 isn't all that far off from 4/4.

I'll be trying out the Scarab online for a while and see where things go. If you're going to test out Sigarda, please let us know how she is. I haven't actually tried her yet.

[ForlornEgoist]

That may sound ultimately silly and unsinergycal but.... how about tombstalker? Bad call?

Tombstalker isn't necessarily a bad choice for Deadguy Ale builds (I myself am currently running several in my build) however, he isn't optimal for Rock. The reason being, firstly, is that even after color fixing you sometimes need to make a decision as to how to color fix your land, and sometimes having to go BB can hurt more than help, particularly when you're against nonbasic hate. You'll also note many builds have sacrificed Hymn in exchange for more targeted removal via IoK/Duress/Therapy.

Secondly, unlike Deadguy Rock cares much more about its GY as said GY is what powers up KotR/'Goyf. Even if you're smart about what you Delve you're still sacrificing the potential power of your other creatures.

Finally its important to note that running Tombstalker with Bob requires you have sufficient fixing via Top/Library to protect against a topdeck'ed Tombstalker via Bob. Even in ideal circumstance I gurantee at least several games you will lose flat out to this event.

Understand, I'm not saying that Tombstalker is bad by any means as a 5/5 Flyer for BB can often times end games flat out as beyond "Cheat," creatures he will be the biggest in the air, however, Rock already runs big creatures. Its not Deadguy. So, tbh, Tombstalker really isn't the right fit for the deck.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

Rock places first in a 34 person tournament in Spain:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8667&iddeck=63257

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Rock places first in a 34 person tournament in Spain:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8667&iddeck=63257

-Matt

I'd guess that the meta is all aggro and control. No Teeg, Thalia, Cannonist typically means a good field for us. Congrats to Juan Rubio for the good choice.

This should put a bit of a thorn in the side of the "Need" for GSZ and SFM crowd (Even if I'm still running both). I think it'd be a good thing for us all to remember that there is nothing that's set in stone and our "Beliefs" of the best version should change to being "Ideas". Ideas are easier to change.

Video's up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-D7ASnrSUE&list=PL84A29D87B3295887&feature=plpp_play_all)

[lavafrogg]

He beat Miracles in the finals and the quarters! Take that!

[damionblackgear]

He beat Miracles in the finals and the quarters! Take that!

That's fine. I'm not knocking him on performance at all. I'm pointing out that the list is cold to combo (compared to the typical lists) and congratulating on winning.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry! The take that was meant for the Miracle matchup not to you:)

Oh, god, that list is all removal... sweet lord of removal jesus...

3 Vindicate
4 swords
2 path
2 deed
2 jitte
1 vault of the archangel
2 Lilliana

and thats not counting

2 ooze(removal for goyf/knight)
4 thoughtseize(proactive removal)
2 inquisition(same as thoughtseize)

and after board he gets

2 more path
2 more inquisition

removal and dudes...its like the old days, not sure if i think it is good or not, still working on that decision.

After board against miracles he gets 8 discard spells to resolve one of three chokes. The only card that can kill him is entreat the angels or counterbalance on one plus a mana advantage.

As per the discussion on the pervious page, if you are having trouble with miracles and you are running 1 loam main/1 loam side for the RUG/Maverick matchup anyways, you can always add worm harvest to break the control match in half. Five mana put 10+ 1/1's into play seems like some win to me. I think it is better than a creature they can counter/terminus away. The Scarab seems like a cool idea but can still be dealt with if they have batterskull active.

[Angels]

Out of control. He had 4 Timely Reinforcements in SB. Guess he was expecting a lot of aggro.

[sdematt]

Well, if he ever faced Burn, I'm sure he won.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I think it'd be a good thing for us all to remember that there is nothing that's set in stone and our "Beliefs" of the best version should change to being "Ideas". Ideas are easier to change.

My favorite movie of all time. Thank you.

Both my Legacy events fell through this week :( So no updates, sorry.

[sdematt]

Dogma?

I'm halfway through watching it for the first time. What are the chances? :tongue:

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Dogma?

I'm halfway through watching it for the first time. What are the chances? :tongue:

-Matt

I knew I fucking loved you guys for a good reason!

[lavafrogg]

The Rock Thread: Your Source for people with great taste in movies.

[Angels]

The Rock Thread: Your Source for people with great taste in movies.
How about "Spice World"?

"Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want. So tell me what you want, what you really really want!"

[damionblackgear]

How about "Spice World"?

"Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want. So tell me what you want, what you really really want!"

I completely misread Spice World as Cool World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_World). Those lyrics make no sense in that movie.

[Angels]

Getting back on track, how is your MU with U/R Delver and what do you SB in Ian?

[damionblackgear]

Getting back on track, how is your MU with U/R Delver and what do you SB in Ian?

Better than it should be. They normally are a bad burn deck with too many creatures. They basically made their Combo match better by adding blue for card draw and counters but weakened their match-up vs our style decks.

I typically:
- 4 Thoughtseize
- 1 Liliana of the Veil
+ 1 Timely Reinforcement
+ 1 Duress
+ 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg

The name of the game is to fetch basics and gain life. If you can avoid having a forest, do it. Submerge sucks.

Don't worry about Lili. If she hits then it's usually to edict (and then die because they think she's a threat). Very rarely do you need to force them to discard (since they'll probably not have a hand after turn 4 anyway) but, if you can steal a spell at little to no cost, go for it.

Keep available Wastelands up as they'll try to PoP you at any chance once they realize you're playing around them. If you can just not have basics that's even better but, "beggars can't be choosers m'lord."

If you can block Goblin Guide with Bob, do it. There is no card you'll gain worth killing Goblin Guide (a.k.a. recurring source of damage). At the very worst Bob eats a bolt in which case you should have a third mana available. With 3 mana you should have access to a solution to the recurring damage source.

If you can kill the Guide post-declare/pre-damage, do it. The only exception being if you're expecting a counter, then you may want to try when you feel it's safe. You should always expect a counter but they're all Daze and Spell pierce. Yes, they play force but, you don't have the time to play around that.

Don't wait to play Timely Reinforcements until you're at 4 just for the bodies. Gaining 6 at 12 life is just as good. If they don't have an extra body down, they're likely to not get one before you're dead.

Don't rely on Jitte or Skull to gain you life post board but try for them when you can. They'll probably have Smash to Smithereens just for them and as such, won't use them unless they find a second. So, Mox should be safe.

Lastly, Swording your own creatures is a viable option.

[sdematt]

Best blowout play at SCG Seattle: guy playing Esperblade taps out to play Jace with a Batterskull in play and a SFM. Jace resolves, and chooses to Brainstorm. In response, Ur Burn player uses Smash to Smithereens to kill Batterskull and redirect damage to Jace.

Fucking. blowout.

For me, the key to beating UR burn was fetching basics, getting rid of recurring damage sources, and keep Wastelands up. Goyf and Knight can't be removed, so pressure them with them. Dark Confidant stays in so you can block their garbage if need be. I usually try to lower my curve if possible, and bring in Timely and Choke. Choke isn't huge here, but it can screw them over especially with Snapcaster and the fact they're mana light already. Don't be afraid to Swords your own large Knight, either.

I'm usually:

-1 Garruk
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Duress
+2 Timely
+2 Choke

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

As the Stoneforge player, I often just use Stoneforge to force them to waste all their burn. If they don't kill Stoneforge, early lifegain (jitte or Bskull or SoLS comes on line). If they do kill Stoneforge, it ruins their tempo and eats up their burn spells (which are relatively precious and few). Once they lose that tempo, I just hardcast the equipment soon after and win. Play smart and the MU will be hilariously in your favor

[sdematt]

I will definitely concede the point that the SFM versions of the deck are WAY better against Burn.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Agreeded on the burn matchup. Without main board life gain you only have a 30-35 percent chance to race as opposed to a 50 percent chance to stabilize. 4x any life gain spell in the board or an enlightened tutor board with warmth is more than enough to swing the match in your favor.

[Mirrislegend]

4x any life gain spell in the board or an enlightened tutor board with warmth is more than enough to swing the match in your favor.

This combines with my previous post. The gist of it is; no matter your build, you should be able to beat UR Delver. If you can't, you need to test vigorously against it, using not only different tech, but also try playing differently. Eventually you'll figure out what works, and that matchup won't worry you again

[Sughayyer]

Hey guys! I was browsing the net and found a version of the rock that ran 1 vendillion and 2 jace. Of course, it had 4 moxen, and using 4 colors it had ee and academy ruins. It also ran the sfm package. What do you think of it? I'm willing to try it.

[Mirrislegend]

Hey guys! I was browsing the net and found a version of the rock that ran 1 vendillion and 2 jace. Of course, it had 4 moxen, and using 4 colors it had ee and academy ruins. It also ran the sfm package. What do you think of it? I'm willing to try it.

Sounds exceedingly silly. But possibly fun. Decklist?

[Sughayyer]

You are right, Mirri. It seems that it is just a rock deck with some "fashion" cards. Four colors can get really complicated. On the other hand jace seems sooo cool :p I'm on the phone, when I get home I'll post the list

[sdematt]

The deck is called, "It's the Fear."

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

The deck is called, "It's the Fear."

-Matt

Oh I remember people talking about that deck. Wasn't it also a Standstill and/or Gifts/Loam deck?

Whatever it was, it always seemed to be trying to do too many things at once, and thus did none of them well. What does Jace, VClique, or EE up to 4 give us that we don't already have? Jace draw, that's it. But Sylvan and SDT, along side other card advantage sources in the deck can keep us full of cards in hand

[Mr. Safety]

This combines with my previous post. The gist of it is; no matter your build, you should be able to beat UR Delver. If you can't, you need to test vigorously against it, using not only different tech, but also try playing differently. Eventually you'll figure out what works, and that matchup won't worry you again

What are the valid options for lifegain in the board? I'm curious because I'm starting to seriously build The Rock for legacy.

My guess would be:

Timely Reinforcements
Extra copies of Scavenging Ooze
Kitchen Finks

Anything else? Would Circle of Protection: Red be worth looking at if I expected to see a lot of U/R Delver or Burn?

[Sughayyer]

@Mr. Safety
As stated before, ur delver has a better MU for us than burn, because it has "less" burn spells to make room for delver, cantrips and counterspells. We can deal better with creatures on the field than burns on our opponent's hand. I'm yet to test more against UR, but for monored, point discards, hymn and liliana usually do. I also run conversion on my sb, but don't take it as a parameter since my sb has a tutor package (then I run choke, conversion, deed plague, etc).
I also have a question for you all: is 3 top + 1 library too much? Should I take one of them away to add a second IoK, thus running 5 point discards?

[lavafrogg]

It's the fear was sooooooo cool! It was a psycatog deck that dropped tog in favor of goyf. It ran counterbalance/intuition/Loam and turned out to be too slow at anything it did. It basically was mono blue with splashes for the best cards at the time.

For burn try gerrards verdict, it hits burn by discarding lands yourself and also hits combo and other land light decks; I would imagine timely reenforcemants is the best card for the slot though, if only it had a "if you have less lands than an opponent" clause.

P.S. glissa/EE out of the board is a house against creature decks.... They could be taking the infest/deed/persicution slots in my board.

On top/library: 4 is generally considered a correct number of library manipulation but it is, in most cases, a 2/2 split. If you wanted to shave off a card, then 1/2 top/library seems better

[Sughayyer]

@Lavafrogg
Do you play cockatrice? If so, this weekend did you play against a BG pox then against a Rock?

[Mr. Safety]

My current list, seeking feedback and sideboard suggestions (please!):


4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Birds of Paradise

3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Life from the Loam
4x Raven's Crime
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
1x Profane Command
1x Sylvan Library

3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Maze of Ith

[Mirrislegend]

Answers to burn decks vary based on what you're playing. Running Moxen and GSZ? Play Finks. Running Stoneforge? Laugh at them. Timely is an effective answer if you don't play Stoneforge nor acceleration. Playing ETutor board? Obviously Warmth.

Scav Ooze is not an optimal answer, to be honest. Yes, it can be good against them, but is slightly too slow to be truely effective.

On SDT/Library split: 3/1 seems excessive, as multiple Tops usually suck. I'd try for 2/2. The decision between 3/1 and 2/1 + IoK can only be made via personal preference and testing

@MrSafety:
You seem to be in DIRE need of Mox Diamond. It is perfect for your deck. -2 Deed (4 StP, 3 Pulse will suffice for removal), -2 Duress (recurring Raven's Crime covers discard well), +4 Mox Diamond. Probably up the land count a smidge too.

[lavafrogg]

Sughayyer- I'm out of town this week but my best friend uses my account to play. According to him he played all weekend, my list. How did he do?

[lavafrogg]

Yes! Someone playing more life from the loams!! I am a full supporter of GWB loam decks but I have to say there is not reason not to play 4 Dark Confidant especially in any deck that plays so many mana sources.

[Mirrislegend]

Yes! Someone playing more life from the loams!! I am a full supporter of GWB loam decks but I have to say there is not reason not to play 4 Dark Confidant especially in any deck that plays so many mana sources.

It doesn't have confidant?! Holy crap how'd I miss that

I think that deck needs to be Dark Horizons or Rock, not attempting to be both at the same time and thus losing many power cards

[damionblackgear]

Hey Mr Safety. Some things to think about.

Currently your list has 12.5 creatures



4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Treetop Village


This is typically fine but, you've also brought into play 4x Loam. Loam does means you'll have infinite Treetop Villages and Dryad Arbors (barring hate) but, it also means that, any creature dredged, can be considered gone for good. Granted, you do have command and Witness but those can be dredged. If you dredge the command, you pretty much have to get witness asap to make sure you don't lose all of your win-cons. If you dredge the witness, you're down to praying. Volrath's Stronghold wouldn't be a bad idea to fix the issue.

Every deck that plays Loam 'effectively' has something to do with the extra lands (Assualt, Mox, Liliana, etc). Raven's crime is nice but once they're in topdeck mode you can't expect to Loam for much profit anymore. - I'm aware that the cycle lands are helpful in that matter but I think it may be a better idea to try and limit the amount of things you're spending your mana on. - You're a mana hungry deck, it may be more help to incorporate a way to either play extra lands or take advantage of the extras in hand beyond the crime.

The creature base is it's susceptibility to mass effects (I'm going to clump a bunch into the removal category). I don't mean things like Wrath and Terminus (since they hit almost every creature) but Perish (really good against you) and to a lesser extent Tormod's Crypt are extremely effective against you. If someone pops a Relic: 2 of your creatures will die, 4 will become 2/2's, 1 will become a 0/1 and 1 will become a 'vanilla' 2/1. That's 8 of 12.5 creatures. The surviving creatures can rebuild but, limiting the effectiveness of hate may be more helpful.

On burn hate, with your list I would run the Enlightened Tutor (e.tutor) package. You have a high cmc for your spells and the e.tutor package can give you plays to make in the early turns.

[lavafrogg]

Yeah, second comment: you need a stronghold in your list. Third thing: four mox diamonds, with. Four loams they have almost no drawback. I would suggest looking at my Liam Rick list from. A few pages back or searching for my aggro dirt thread.

[Mirrislegend]

Liam Rick This is how I will refer to Loam Rock decks from now on

[Sughayyer]

Sughayyer- I'm out of town this week but my best friend uses my account to play. According to him he played all weekend, my list. How did he do?

Lavafrogg, if we are talking about the same person, I won 2-0 playing bg pox (also, check out my post in that thread, you might like it since you are a fan of loam rock), but when I played Dark Horizons I made a stupid mistake and he took over, making 1-0.

Tomorrow I'm going to play again at my local shop. Then I'll post news! :D

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Mr Safety. Some things to think about.

Currently your list has 12.5 creatures



This is typically fine but, you've also brought into play 4x Loam. Loam does means you'll have infinite Treetop Villages and Dryad Arbors (barring hate) but, it also means that, any creature dredged, can be considered gone for good. Granted, you do have command and Witness but those can be dredged. If you dredge the command, you pretty much have to get witness asap to make sure you don't lose all of your win-cons. If you dredge the witness, you're down to praying. Volrath's Stronghold wouldn't be a bad idea to fix the issue.

Every deck that plays Loam 'effectively' has something to do with the extra lands (Assualt, Mox, Liliana, etc). Raven's crime is nice but once they're in topdeck mode you can't expect to Loam for much profit anymore. - I'm aware that the cycle lands are helpful in that matter but I think it may be a better idea to try and limit the amount of things you're spending your mana on. - You're a mana hungry deck, it may be more help to incorporate a way to either play extra lands or take advantage of the extras in hand beyond the crime.

The creature base is it's susceptibility to mass effects (I'm going to clump a bunch into the removal category). I don't mean things like Wrath and Terminus (since they hit almost every creature) but Perish (really good against you) and to a lesser extent Tormod's Crypt are extremely effective against you. If someone pops a Relic: 2 of your creatures will die, 4 will become 2/2's, 1 will become a 0/1 and 1 will become a 'vanilla' 2/1. That's 8 of 12.5 creatures. The surviving creatures can rebuild but, limiting the effectiveness of hate may be more helpful.

On burn hate, with your list I would run the Enlightened Tutor (e.tutor) package. You have a high cmc for your spells and the e.tutor package can give you plays to make in the early turns.

Thank you for the in-depth comments. I am working on getting the Mox Diamonds now, they were already on my radar screen (considering 4 Loams.)

What do you suggest for creatures given that 8 out of 12 are somewhat tanked to my own synergy (dredging)? I figured Knight/Vore would be the best beaters I could possibly use. As far as Eternal Witness goes, I think of myself as playing 4 functional copies because of Green Sun's Zenith. Witness and Loam are the main reason for using Profane Command...it can be an incredible late-game plan hitting for repeatable damage or just getting my threats back.

Grave hate is an issue, of course. Volrath's Stronghold wasn't on my radar screen, and it's great, but I don't know what to do against Relics/Crypts. Pithing Needle? Phyrexian Revoker? I'm quite open to suggestions for boarding an answer to grave hate.

I am not using Dark Confidant because I opted for the slower but less painful Loam/cycle lands. I'm not opposed to Confidant but I'd probably rework the deck to include Kitchen Finks x4. Sylvan Library is also another option for digging for extra cards when I have the life to spare.

This is my revised list that I'm considering using, with a rough sideboard included, based on suggestions here:


4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness

3x Mox Diamond
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Profane Command
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Raven's Crime
4x Duress

3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Swamp
1x Forest

(yes, I realize that is 61 cards...the 61st card is Volrath's Stronghold)

Sideboard:

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Pithing Needle
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Infest


Sculler is strictly for the combo matchup, giving my discard teeth. Testing it to see what becomes of it.

Still looking for feedback, and I'm receptive to anyone with a good amount of experience with Rock in legacy. I'm especially looking for folks who use Loam.

Other cards on my mind to put to use:

Smallpox
Bloodghast
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Liliana of the Veil
Armageddon


Liliana specifically is on my mind...I would love a way to squeeze her in there. With the Moxen, I'm not sure I have room...feedback appreciated!

[Sughayyer]

Other cards on my mind to put to use:

Smallpox
Bloodghast
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Liliana of the Veil
Armageddon


Liliana specifically is on my mind...I would love a way to squeeze her in there. With the Moxen, I'm not sure I have room...feedback appreciated!


If you want to run ghast, smallpox, liliana, then you could go BG. There's a nice array of options, like innocent blood and worm harvest - but then, I think it'll become a totally different deck.

Also, Mr. Safety, I *think* you can move bojuka bog to the main deck - I did it and it pays: on the first games I played in here in wich I used it maindeck, I was able to surprise a few opponents and get some advantage (or outright victory). But, it's just a suggestion.

Finally, about mox/liliana: it is great to be able to cast liliana on turn 2, and exceeding moxen are excellent pinches for her +1 ability.

Hope my post wasn't too confusing, it's late at night and I'm sleepy :tongue:

[lavafrogg]

This is my Liam Rick lust(what the hell auto correct?), I have played everything from the eternal witness/small pox plan to terravore and SFM. The problem with BG loam lists is that it doesn't do anything that strong. Lilliana does everything that the whole deck wants to do and still leaves room for the rest of the deck.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf(don't leave home without him)
4 Dark Confidant(kill this guy now)
3 Qasali Pridemage

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Spells: 18
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox diamond
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares

Land: 24
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery/maze of ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Barren Moor

Sideboard: 15
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore

What happened right now is that I have moved the GSZ main and cut loams down to a 1/1 main side split. Green Sun's Zenith is the real deal right now and is just as much a 4 of as confidant is to me. You need a real reason to run 4x loam and the interactions with knight, Lilliana, mox and wasteland is a great reason without limiting yourself to playing sub par cards like smallpox...

[Angels]

Sideboard: 15
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore

What MU will you bring in GSZ? I always thought that these should be in main.

[lavafrogg]

What MU will you bring in GSZ? I always thought that these should be in main.

When I play this list I bring in the GSZ package to sidestep Loam hate in that I can cut down to 1-2 loams against decks where the game won't go long enough for Loam to matter. See the targets for the matchups it comes in for. Teeg is for combo, Ooze is for reanimator/dredge, terravore is to crush knight decks seeing how he is bigger than most knights.

I did find that GSZ does not play that well with Loam as a 4 of and until the format slows down again or a new card gets played with an awesome effect with "discard a card" as a cost. My loams will be either in the board or in my box...

I am running a 1/1 split right now due to all of the positive interactions with my list. A resolved Loam also helps against RUG and Maverick due to the mana disruption that the top two decks pack.

[Sughayyer]

Hey guys! I won today's (tonight's) tournament. Playing this list:

3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
2 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
1 sylvan library
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight-errand

SB:
2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 conversion
1 choke
1 nihil spellbomb
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 infest
1 life from the loam
2 duress
1 thrunn, the last troll

a few decks present were: 3 sneak & show, 3 or 4 TES, 1 merfolks, 1 goblins, 1 esper blade, 1 br reanimator (very funny deck with a funny combo in it, involving necrotic ooze, phyrexian devourer and triskelavus), 2 gw, a br aggro deck that ran kiln fiend and blightning, an ur delver, and I forgot the rest

round 1: show & tell

game 1 I had my hymn misdirected (the forst of four of the night), he s&t a griselband while i put a knight. he draws a lot. I am too coky and get the karakas soon. next turn he s&t a sneak attack for grisel and emrakul. Yummy.

game 2 my seize gets countered, i wasteland him and then I cast surgical on his volcanic, so I can see his hand. nothing scary, then I proceed on knight, he starts working, I win.

game 3 I don't remember very well, but I had a discard misdirected (so nice). Nevertheless, I manage to put enough pressure and resolve enough disrupts to win the game.

round 2: show & tell (part II - the mission)

g1 he doesn't find anything - ANYTHING - and I win.
g2 Misdirection on inquisition. It's so nice. And he manages to play griselband with sneak attack. he draws 14 cards, swings, draws 7.... you all know the rest.
g3 was a bit tough, but I was able to disrupt, wastelock and pressure him. By the time he S&T a griselband I had liliana online, and there wasn't much to do since bob and goyf were punishing him.

round 3: TES

g1 I mulligan in search for a single discard, and I find none. He starts with a duress on my liliana, I dont draw anything useful, he starts his ad nauseam and wins.

g2 I could find some discards this time (funny in a deck that runs 11 +2 lilianas) but he was too fast and had the right draws.

round 4: TES

g1 i mulligan searching for discards again, but this time i find a quite decent hand. He silenced me 2 consecutive turns, really refreshing. afer that he goes off on me.

g2 tourach on tun 1, then waste, then bob. then, liliana, seize, and another discard from liliana ends the game.

g3 the disruptions worked out this time, hitting 2 discard spells. Then I leave him woth no lands, move to beatdown with a bob and 2 goyfs.

round 5: merfolks

he agreed on conceeding to me - it was quite late and we had to go home (São Paulo is a really big city but we don't have buses or subway all night long).

My list is basically the same as always - only -1 top + 1 inquisition main deck, and a few changes to side. Sometimes I wish I had 4 mox diamonds. Sometimes I wish I had 4 bobs. But I don't know what to take away.

And of course, being hit by your own hymns to tourach and winning brings an exceeding ammount of joy :tongue:

Again, thanks for all your support and oppinions!

[ryn ball_2]

@Sughayyer: congrats again w/ your awesome finish, seems like you totally enjoy your list and your opponents hate it :) ohh i forgot you ask, how is your match up against maverick in that list?
Btw i would like to revive my old build of junk and test it this coming sunday in a place i dont know the current meta, here's the list

4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymns, 2 gerrard's verdict
4 stp, 3 pulse
2 deed
3 mox d, 3 SDT
2 bayou, 2 scrubland
2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
4 verdant, 4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas, 1 maze, 1 bog

SB
2 tormods, 3 extirpate, 2 diabolic edict
2 choke
2 duress
2 deed, 2 perish

any thoughts? thanks :)

[lavafrogg]

Grats sug!!

Anything I have to say about your list is negated by the fact that you keep playing combo decks! :p
I love the 4 goyf/4 bob/4 knight set up and I feel it gives you a lot of game against much of the field.

Did Elspeth ever hit the board?

Ryn: I think you should cut 2 verdicts and get 2 Lillianas in your list. That card is dumb good..

[Sughayyer]

@ ryn
I agree that liliana is better than veredict.

@ frog
with 24 lands +3 moxen, elspeth does hit the board. It is great against maverick and some control decks. When it hits the table it a) ends the game or b)gives me recursive threats/blocks). Of course, today she stayed out of my deck almost entirely.

about the match with maverick: it's been 2 weeks since I last played against maverick, but infest is simply great. combined with our great array of removals and discard spells, it's working fine (unless I do stupid things during the play that cost me the match, and that's what I usually do when in attrition). Deed, infest, and elspeth are great against maverick.

Even liking elsy that much, sometimes I consider shifting to another bob... but I'm still not sure.

Again, thanks for all your support and good night! I'm gonna sleep 'cause it's too late in here!

EDIT: just paid atention on ryn's side. I *think* nihil spellbomb is better than tormod's.It costs mana, but it "cycles" itself.

[lavafrogg]

I have been thinking about Elspeth but the 4cc double white is a problem in my mind seeing how the matchups I am most concerned with RUG/Maverick can keep you off of double white or four mana for quite a long time.

I am hopefully going to get two tournaments in next week as I will be visiting my mom in San Diego!!! I am super excited about the amount of magic that will be in my life next week.

[Mirrislegend]

I look forward to Elspeth being tested in the non-Stoneforge versions of this deck. I expect it'll be amazing.

Sug, are you going to update your SB for Sneak and Show? I've always been terrified of that deck, leading to 3x Diabolic Edict in my SB.

Ryn_ball: 21 lands with 3 Mox Diamond? Mox Diamond with Pernicious Deed? I'd cut the 2 Verdicts for lands. I know Verdict is good, but I think it's most relevant in control builds.

[ryn ball_2]

@Sughayyer & lavafrogg: Oh my i almost forgot about liliana and yes i will cut 2 verdicts for her place, thanks guys about that. :)

@Mirrislegend: i think according to my list i have 23 lands :), and yes if i have engineered explosives (faster than deed) i will replace the deed by those EE so it doesnt hit my mox d. :)

@sughayyer: about tormod's crypt i think it is good (not downgrading the nihil) but for :0: cmc and :0: activation cost w/c is really awesome, it hurts dredge alot, not so for reanimator but it can play around daze plus ideally if i have 1 tormod's and i extirpate in hand i think that set up is quite boss plus of course land to cast extirpate w/ a back up proactive discards and maybe i will do combination of extirpate and surgicals for quite flexiblity :)

[Mirrislegend]

Hah, I'm an idiot, sorry. Anyways, the EE over Deed is great in your deck, because you have lots of pressure, so it's rare to have to explode the whole board.

Why is noone playing Teeg in their sideboards? Is it just the lack of GSZ?

[Sughayyer]

I look forward to Elspeth being tested in the non-Stoneforge versions of this deck. I expect it'll be amazing.

Sug, are you going to update your SB for Sneak and Show? I've always been terrified of that deck, leading to 3x Diabolic Edict in my SB.



On elspeth: even bob swings for flying 5 with her. I stated it before and I'm not exagerating: she ends games.
On sneak & show, I think the deck is already optimal for it. After he starts drawing cards with griselband, any attempt of removal/edict WILL be countered - or worse, misdirected. The way I see, knight and karakas is the key. Also, getting liliana online fast, since her edicts are "free", and uncounterable. Against these decks, I simply try to disrupt their hands as better as I can, and shove dudes on the field. Their counters are usually for protecting their combo (and their creatures), so if he starts countering your dudes he is in a terrible position and you are already winning. On the sideboard against them, I was -4 stp, +1 extirpate + 1 surgical + 2 duress.

-----------------

Also, I don't know if it's just me, but I can't run this deck with less than 24 lands. I even wanted to fit a sejiri steppe, "tested" it on cokatrice and it felt great. However, I don't have the courage to replace my plains with it in real life.
My manabase is like this:

4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith
...and the 3 moxen. Sometimes I wish I had 4...

[Mirrislegend]

Vs Sneak and Show

Liliana of the Veil (as compared to Diabolic Edict)
+:
Dodges Misdirection (!)
Useable later in the game for discard or more sac
Useable in other matchups

-:
Costs 3
Sorcery Speed

I still can't chose between the two. Currently I'm on Edict cuz I have it, and it's reliable

[sdematt]

In expectation of seeing more Tribal and Miracles, I'm running:

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt/Duress/Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Choke

Essentially, the differences from last time are Duress became Gaddock Teeg, and 2 EE became 2 Path (Path giving me a bit more flexibility in also fighting Griselbrand. EE isn't as good against Goblins, but would be fine against Merfolk, so I'm a bit up in the air). I might just bring back the EE's since Merfolk on 2 is amazing, and taking out tokens against Miracles or CMC 1 against Maverick/Elves is great.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I'm back to troll a little bit, slinging Life from the Loam. I believe I will be using a close version of Liam Rick (thank you for the list!)

My big question is this: With Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam...does Armageddon become a potential game plan?

[sdematt]

Against what decks? You're basically using Armageddon as a control-blowout, but the Wasteland + Loam plan is probably just better against most decks in the format anyway.

The problem I see with Armageddon is say you play it while behind to try to break the game open. Then, if they can counter your Loam for a few turns, how behind do you get versus them?

It's ball-busting against Miracles/Stoneblade, and basically meh against everything else. I think I'd rather just have Choke, but I'd say to give it a shot for sure.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

When building a deck around such a strong card like life from the loam, you have to make sure that your cards are good on their own and you aren't looking at an Armageddon in your hand against an active planeswalker or a couple heirarchs while you have a mox diamond.

I know that you can argue that all cards are useless in certain situations but it's just a thought...

I'm not sure whether I will have 4 GSZ or 3 life from the loams in my list this next week... I will most likely have 4 GSZ and 1/1 Loam but I will be sad about it.

[damionblackgear]

I'm back to troll a little bit, slinging Life from the Loam. I believe I will be using a close version of Liam Rick (thank you for the list!)

My big question is this: With Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam...does Armageddon become a potential game plan?

It'll work, just remember to have things to deal with the aggro decks as well. Tabernacle (land) is a good call at that point. You'll have Diamonds and probably no more than a couple creatures on the field. An Armageddon into Tabernacle would suffice to kill off majority of threats. Just remember that the land is a destroy effect now and the creature a sacrifice (as was the land's oracle text at the time).

I know it'll work because I had a list using Crucible with 3 Armageddon's main. Granted, instead of Diamonds, I was using Exploration.

[Mirrislegend]

You can't Armageddon with Teeg out. I think Choke + Teeg will beat blue based control much more reliably than Armageddon

[damionblackgear]

You can't Armageddon with Teeg out. I think Choke + Teeg will beat blue based control much more reliably than Armageddon

True. Even in my old list I swapped Armageddon for Choke post board. That's post board though.

[Mr. Safety]

I was considering Armageddon for the sideboard, mostly for the control decks. It won't be very useful against decks that use acceleration like Bant and Maverick but it would be fairly great for decks like Miracle Control and Nic-Fit. I guess I'm looking for a little surprise-factor, I mean who plays Armageddon now? Dutch Staxx and a few fringe decks? Armageddon hits at a different point of the game, too. Blue players will expect to see Choke turns 2-3 whereas Geddon is a turn 3-4 play. The off-beat timing could be good.

Anyways, I'm testing it x3 in the board (online.) I'll let folks know what happens.

[Mirrislegend]

I was considering Armageddon for the sideboard, mostly for the control decks. It won't be very useful against decks that use acceleration like Bant and Maverick but it would be fairly great for decks like Miracle Control and Nic-Fit. I guess I'm looking for a little surprise-factor, I mean who plays Armageddon now? Dutch Staxx and a few fringe decks? Armageddon hits at a different point of the game, too. Blue players will expect to see Choke turns 2-3 whereas Geddon is a turn 3-4 play. The off-beat timing could be good.

Anyways, I'm testing it x3 in the board (online.) I'll let folks know what happens.

Are you having trouble vs Nic-Fit? What goes wrong for you?

Also, Armageddon would be fine against Bant and Maverick, except for KotR

[Mr. Safety]

Not having trouble with Nic-Fit at all...it was just a general comment that Armageddon would be big game against a mana-ramp deck like that. They play a lot of basics so Wasteland isn't good in the mid-late game, even with a Loam/Waste lock. Armageddon just blows them all up. I think maindeck Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are fantastic against Nic-Fit and Loam really tips the scales.

I have added a Nantuko Monastary to complement my Treetop Village and I have decided that I will play Raven's Crime in lieu of Liliana. Her best abilities are discard and removal. Raven's Crime is one sided and fantastic with Loam. I have a boatload of removal already (Swords, Deeds, Pulses, Profane Command = 10)

A card that I'm really curious about is Realms Uncharted. For a Loam deck it's guaranteed to give me 2 more Raven's Crime activations or simply feed me man-lands, Wasteland, and cycle lands. I wouldn't play more than 2 and I'm testing one. I haven't pulled the trigger on Diamonds yet...but I am using 24 lands. It feels right ATM, time will tell. My only chance to playtest so far was Esper Stoneblade...and I murdered the guy on MWS. It was a long game but I kept attacking his Jace until I finally topped a Pulse. Raven's Crime started raping turn 2 and he never had more than one card in hand after turn 3, except during his turn when he activated Jace. I feel good about that matchup, bringing in Infest x2 and Armageddon x3 from the sideboard.

[lavafrogg]

Safety- please don't cut Lilliana for ravens crime, one is a good card and one is part of a slow "combo" that doesn't win the game or even hold the board down. As you add all of these cute cards you become more and more susceptible to hate both main board and sideboard.

You need to plan on games where you will not resolve life from the loam at all, and also games where you have your graveyard nuked multiple times/leylined/oozed with mom protection.

You also don't want to have too many expensive cards; with maverick and RUG as the best decks in the format you need to be able to play on a tight mana budget, through many wastelands.

All I am really saying is watch out for the danger of cool things, take that from someone who has played with Loam since it was printed.

[Sughayyer]

Mr. Safety, I pondered a lot before replying anything about your list, because it was full of good ideas. I once played against a The Rock player that also had tons of good ideas. But there is a limit ofwhat a deck can do. I found out (and you may not even realize you are doing it) that you are trying to use the sinergies from stax, aggro loam, etc, all into a single deck. The Rock is a deck archetype that works by quick (and efficient) hand disruption followed by a threat and removals for any kind of permanent the opponent puts in the board. If you want to base your deck in life from the loam, even the land count should be different.

Also, guys, what do you think about this:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocend blood
4 smallpox
3 maelstrom pulse
3 life from the loam
1 worm harvest
3 mox diamond
3 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
2 pernicious deed

lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
4 bayou
1 forest
3 swamp

tested it against aggro and a few combo decks, and the disruption is enough to win against combo... nice matches against rug (won them all), but this list loses to sneak attack.
I should add eternal witness and voçrath's stronghold, as well as an urborg.

I still prefer my Dark Horizons list, this is just something I was working on...

[Mirrislegend]

Mr. Safety, I pondered a lot before replying anything about your list, because it was full of good ideas. I once played against a The Rock player that also had tons of good ideas. But there is a limit ofwhat a deck can do. I found out (and you may not even realize you are doing it) that you are trying to use the sinergies from stax, aggro loam, etc, all into a single deck. The Rock is a deck archetype that works by quick (and efficient) hand disruption followed by a threat and removals for any kind of permanent the opponent puts in the board. If you want to base your deck in life from the loam, even the land count should be different.

Also, guys, what do you think about this:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocend blood
4 smallpox
3 maelstrom pulse
3 life from the loam
1 worm harvest
3 mox diamond
3 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
2 pernicious deed

lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
4 bayou
1 forest
3 swamp

tested it against aggro and a few combo decks, and the disruption is enough to win against combo... nice matches against rug (won them all), but this list loses to sneak attack.
I should add eternal witness and voçrath's stronghold, as well as an urborg.

I still prefer my Dark Horizons list, this is just something I was working on...

That pile looks like fun, althought more LftL than Dark Horizons. Play Terravore over Bloodghast

[Sughayyer]

That pile looks like fun, althought more LftL than Dark Horizons. Play Terravore over Bloodghast

Yes, I said I prefer my traditional Dark Horizons than this list. In fact it's an "evolution" from a monoblack pox deck (hence the bloodghast) but as all my decks, it invariably became a rock-like deck.
Testing it online on cockatrice (as far as it can be called testing) I won all matches, but then again I played very little with it. Won at the local shop where I play too, but this was a few months ago... I was still tampering with my cards choosing wich deck I would play (had all cards for the rock, but was thinking about bg, nif fit, deadguy ale, etc). Like I said, it loses flat and square to sneak attack and many other decks.

[Mirrislegend]

If you're gonna build a LftL deck (ie: a deck that is more Loam focused than Dark Horizons is), then build a LftL deck, not an evolution of a Pox deck. LftL decks can get great utility out of Pox staples, but as a Pox evolution, you don't get the right kind of deck.

Here's how I'd go about doing a 2 color LftL deck, as yours was shaping up to be:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
4 Terravore
2 Worm Harvest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Smallpox
8 other cards (discard and removal. maybe Goyf)
26 land

[lavafrogg]

4 Mox Diamond
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam
4 Dark Confidant
4 Smallpox
4 Entomb
1 Ravens Crime
1 Worm Harvest
3 Eternal Witness
3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
26 Land

Maybe? 26 Land seems like a lot but it probably isn't, if you cut to 25 you can make a 3 of a 4 of. Entomb seems like a card we should use seeing how it is a perfect tutor with life from the loam, as it gets the loam, any creature or land or retrace creature. You get witness for late game smallpox/witness loops or even early game smallpox witness card advantage(when you have loam). I also wouldn't play terravore or bloodghast, you dont need to kill them you just have to not die.

I have been mulling over things like this for a while but always end up splashing white for swords(over innocent blood)...

[ryn ball_2]

hello rock players, i went 1st (4-0) in a small legacy tourney, meta are bw tokens, rug, reanimator, kithkins, uw stoneblade to name a few
here's the list

4 bob 4 kotr 4 goyf
4 seize 4 hymn 2 liliana of the veil
4 maelstrom pulse 4 STP
3 SDT 3 mox d
1 pernicious deed

2 bayou 2 scrubland
2 swamp 1 forest 1 plains
4 verdant 4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas 1 maze of ith 1 bojuka bog

SB
2 tormod's 3 extirpate 2 diabolic edict
2 duress
2 choke
2 deed 2 e. plague

R1 vs mono white kithkins: win 2-0
R2 vs RUG: win 2-0
R3 vs RUG: win 2-1
R4 vs reanimator: win 2-1

few notes:
1) hymn is good irrespective of any decks, even at BB cost surely it hits something w/c can slows them up
2) i hate to see having 2 pulses in my hand while we have goyfs in our field, i wish i had that vindicate so i can hit that opposing goyf
3) Tidespout Tyrant and griselbrand are both pain in my ass while both of those cards are online in reanimator

thanks for your comments/ideas :)

[Stuuch]

Looks like old school junk list with mox and hymn top 8:ed in GP Ghent. Here is a link to the coverage:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpgnt12/welcome#1

Ok. it has lingering souls :) but otherwise quite oldschool.

[lavafrogg]

The list:

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
24 lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
9 creatures

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thoughtseize
23 other spells

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 planeswalkers

Sideboard
2 Choke
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

List looks pretty solid: Lingering Souls serve the same purpose as Tarmogoyf but is a better card against Miracles, which is picking up steam. The 4 Lilliana seems good against the field especially with the 4 top to ensure everyone is playing off the top of their deck and the rock player does it better.

As much as it wasn't true a few months ago, these hymn lists are out performing their GSZ brethren, especially with the addition of multiple Lillianas.

[ryn ball_2]

nice list there--JUNK SOULS! i'm happy to see junk list top w/ a hymn in there list, i think hymn is in good position right now
I totally agree that the inclusion of lingering souls is good while miracle decks are around and also free attacker/broker.
I remember i encountered similar decks when i participate paeng's cup 4, i ask him if he has bob in his list but he said nothing, instead he has cabal therapies and IOK in place of bob, no tarmo but he has ooze, pretty list too.

[Sughayyer]

It's always great to see a Junk deck doing well! I just have a few remarks (correct me if I'm being dumb)

Hymn, altough being a side-out card against many decks (eg, goblins, gw) in favor for cards that will effectively win the game, instead of just giving a great advantage, has always been a good card. I've been saying this a long time.

Goyf vs Lingering Souls: Is is really worthy to make the match a bit better against miracles and making a bit worse against the rest? I mean, I picture myself against a Sneak & Show or a TES, and I'd HATE to have LS in my hand, but I'd love to have a Goyf... remember we already have great options against Miracles... and LS can be Pierced, Goyf can't.

Maybe I'm being too biased because of my meta, I don't know. Also it's late at night... sorry if I said anything stupid. Anyway, I'm happy to see another Junk list on top!

[Claymore]

A goyf could do some damage in those matchups if you're able to disrupt them, sure, but neither are going to help if they go off. thus early game a goyf vs souls doesn't exactly matter (turn 2 = hymn) and otherwise Souls gives you something to pitch to Liliana if you can get her discard engine going without losing too much value yourself.

I don't know how they both compare to other matchups since I don't play normal Rock but figured I'd check in and see how Rock was able to top 8 in a comblicious tournament and how it may help my own brewing :P.

[lavafrogg]

Think the most important card to take away from in the junk souls list is the 4x Lilliana of the veil. With 4 tops 3 moxen 3 souls 1 life all of these cards can be pitched to Lilliana as well as top and loam ensuring you come out ahead in the deal. This deck wants a Lilliana on the field all of the time. She is that good in rock decks.

[Sughayyer]

@Claymore
We are one of the few decks that doesn't need to add "discardable" cards to make liliana work. We don't need 2 tops, 2 moxen, or 3 bobs on the field (well, not mmost of the time). Plus, running 10 discard spells, they WILL, eventually, become irrelevant once we start discarding with lili. Also, whenever we discard a land, we are making our Knights fatter :):):)
On that turn 2 = Hymn, this is not always the case. Sometimes after a correct turn 1 pointed discard, you'll want to add pressure to the board, so you can cast hymn on 3, then start attacking right away (if you simply deplet all your discard spells at once, you'll just give them enough time to go off, whereas if you do a correct discard, then a fat guy, then start disrupting their hand while they are actually being attacked, they are more likely to play wrong as well. But yes, sometimes all you want to do is 1cc at turn 1 and then Hymn on turn 2, depending on their hand).

I didnt say I don't like that list, I just think that it's more defensive, and I prefer a different approach.

[Mr. Safety]

Safety- please don't cut Lilliana for ravens crime, one is a good card and one is part of a slow "combo" that doesn't win the game or even hold the board down. As you add all of these cute cards you become more and more susceptible to hate both main board and sideboard.

You need to plan on games where you will not resolve life from the loam at all, and also games where you have your graveyard nuked multiple times/leylined/oozed with mom protection.

You also don't want to have too many expensive cards; with maverick and RUG as the best decks in the format you need to be able to play on a tight mana budget, through many wastelands.

All I am really saying is watch out for the danger of cool things, take that from someone who has played with Loam since it was printed.

I agree...two Crimes dropped for 2 Lilis. The danger of cool things IS creeping up on me, for sure.

[sdematt]

Sorry I haven't posted here much, many essays to finish...

-Matt

[sdematt]

Mike, did your Moat show up?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

@ Sug:
Hymn should almost never be sided out. You mentioned Goblins and Maverick:

Hymn is an all star against Maverick. They play zero card advantage. Hymn shreds their resources, leaving them with hatebears and KotR to match our KotR, Bob, and whatever extra plan you like (Lili, GSZ, LSouls, Stoneforge, etc). I love Hymn vs Maverick. They don't apply much pressure, so you can spend an early turn Hymning them.

Hymn is good, but not quite as awesome, against Goblins. If you can stop their rampage, then Hymn them asap, to stop them from exploding again. Also, Ringleader can help them recover, thus negating some of Hymn's awesome. If anyone has played against Goblins, you know that by the time you deal with their first wave, they've drawn into a second one. Hymn diminishes the expansion of the first and slows them from creating the second.

If Hymn has ever been bad for you, you need to carefully re-examine that situation, and make SURE that it wasn't something else happening to make Hymn less good.

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend

Hymn is never bad. But sometimes, I'd rather have a card that gives me the game. If I have plague on the field, then infest and/or plowshares for the lord, the game is already mine. Surviving up to turn 3 isn't so hard when you are about to nullify your opponent's entire deck (remember all my hate sideboard).

Against maverick, yeah, you are right. I'll change my aproach.

[mmmetaphor]

Hello. Been out of the game for awhile and coming back into the scene recently trying to update and older rock deck. Couple questions for you guys and I apologize if this has been asked and asnwered already.

1. Why maelstrom over vindicate? Is it to kill off multiple tokens primarly? At face value I'd take vindicate since you can destroy a land with it as it seems to work better with our wastelands. I understand blowing up lands isn't really the purpose of the deck but hey, mana screw happens and when it does why not seal the game with a vindicate. IT would seem to be relevent more often than killing tokens. But maybe I'm missing something in the modern meta.

2. I haven't much experience playing vs dredge style decks. How much hate is necessary? I pack 1 Scavenging ooze main with 2 gsz to feth it along with 1 bojuka bog main. I am playing the e. tutor style sideboard with 2 tutor, 1 nihil spellbomb, 1 crypt. I am considering adding either a 2nd Scavenging ooze to the SB or 1 loaming shaman. Would not shaman be superior to the 2nd scavenging ooze as a hate piece vs dredge?

THanks for the help guys, this is a very helpful thread and an enjoyable read.

[ryn ball_2]

@Mirrislegend: nice analysis of hymn against maverick, actually my friend asked me when do you use your hymn? and for what match ups, i said i used my hymn against control decks (where they conserve that hand size), against combo (this is like our FOW), against aggressive decks doesnt have card advantage like maverick and also that match up i reported against mono white kithkins (they dont have card advantage) and as early as early turns i will throw that hymn, its okey to take those damage but the impact of that hymn persist till late game (for zero card advantage and leaving them on topdecking).
But for goblins my plan is slightly different, they play bunch of goblins to the point they have no cards in hand (hard cast and vial activation) so i think my game plan there according to my sb, -4 hymn, -2 liliana, +2 deed, +2 e plague, +2 removals (pte, infest, or zealous persecution)

[ryn ball_2]

@mmmetaphor
1) hmmm, i will take this as a simple comparison:
land: vindicate--yes, pulse--no
single non-land pernament: vindicate--yes, pulse--yes
multiple non-land pernament (same name): vindicate--no, maelstrom pulse--yes

althought both cards can hit non-land pernaments but in application pulse gave you board position that will take you a lead in a game, can knock down not only tokens but couple of copies like tarmogoyfs or pernaments that are so annoying like chalices for X=1, X=2 you can hit them, that is the power level of pulse over vindicate, screwing lands are not that so typical today cuz many decks run many lands :)

2) against dredge, if that is your MB that is OK, if that is your tutor targets that is OK as well, but i dont like loaming shaman it is only 1-time use unlike in ooze you can hit their DR targets and etc.

[Sughayyer]

@ ryn_ball

About Pulse, I feel the same. Sometimes a pulse over a vindicate is the difference between winning or losing a game.

Hymn vs goblins I do feel the same way, instead of trying to hinder their progress it's simply better to play a card that wins the game (a single plague does the job, since he'll try to cast matron anyway to fetch his lord, and once he's stp'ed away there's not much he can do).
But against most control decks, I play -4 hymn + 2 duress. Easier to dodge counters, and takes away things that must never fall on the field (like Jace). Depending on the deck I also add cards like choke and thrun, and if it's a deck that run few threats, extirpate and surgical. But then again, it's my aproach, I may be downright wrong.

@mmmetaphor

Vs dredge you can always run bojuka bog, tutorable by knight, as well as tormod's/spellbomb and surgical/extirpate. Pulse and deed are also great in this match.

[sdematt]

Gentleman, Junk placed 8th at GP Ghent. Time to break out the $200 Scotch.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

You're a little late! Still, pretty awesome huh? Upon studying the list, something finally clicked for me. It's not a Lingering Souls version of Rock. It's Liliana Rock. The whole deck is built around her. She must be quite the powerhouse. I think I really need to get my paws on some and take her for a spin.

@ Sug:
Your plan for Goblins is not bad at all. It's the one MU I can think of where they have the highest chance of making Hymn a dead card (topdeck any ringleader or tutor into ringleader, and bam). I'm glad you now understand how Hymn is good against non-ridiculous-amount-of-pressure decks!

[Sughayyer]

I'm glad you now understand how Hymn is good against non-ridiculous-amount-of-pressure decks!

Hahahah I really don't wanna start a flamewar here since it'd be childish and there's no point in doing it on a place full of great people like you all, but... read back some pages and I was the one saying hymn was great, despite most were saying otherwise.

Come to think of the "Liliana Rock" idea, building the deck around her makes that list much better. Still, it seems much more defensive than offensive.

[Mirrislegend]

Hahahah I really don't wanna start a flamewar here since it'd be childish and there's no point in doing it on a place full of great people like you all, but... read back some pages and I was the one saying hymn was great, despite most were saying otherwise.

Come to think of the "Liliana Rock" idea, building the deck around her makes that list much better. Still, it seems much more defensive than offensive.

Too bad, flame war challenge accepted. I'm coming at you with ALL the trolls! :tongue: Anyways, Hymn support hi five!

Well look at the list. There's no WAY that could be misconstrued to be offensive, at all. In fact, the list appears to be built to slow on purpose. It seems like he wants to slow things to a crawl and then Lili or Confidant or Top to the win. Very odd, imo, but apparently very effective.

[sdematt]

I'm thinking that was trying to beat the snot out of NO Rug but just playing way too many things for them to handle. He's the control deck by a mile here, and RUG just runs out of steam.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I'm thinking that was trying to beat the snot out of NO Rug but just playing way too many things for them to handle. He's the control deck by a mile here, and RUG just runs out of steam.

-Matt

NO Rug? Well I suppose Lili does beat Progenitals. But I'm pretty sure it's not played much at the moment.

And that tactic you describe can be used by most Rock decks to beat RUG. That's what I do.

[lavafrogg]

Flame on!!

Hymn sucks! Decks that run only targeted discard are not only more successful, but the decks piolet is more attractive to the opposite sex and automatically gets advanced to the dessert round of "chopped". Just saying.

With the Lilliana plan, which we have been discussing as viable for a while now, I feel targeted discard is going to help you protect your bombs and allow them to control the gamestate muh better than hymn. On top of that, you need to be able to take the Jace, Mom, Submerge whatever from their hand and not just hope to hit it.

With Bob and Lilliana as engines, you should try and protect them and let them win the game for you. We are not playing Eva Green or Deadguy in which we need to jump on an opponent like a high school girl on prom night.

[Sughayyer]

@Lavafrogg

It all depends on your aproach. For a tempo-like version, like my dark horizons list, hymn is great. For the midrange versions that rely more on GSZ for example, you would select a pointed discard, and try to sabilize and then seize the game. Then we'd be back 4 pages ago, discussing if there is an "ultimate" list - and there is not, as we can see different builds doing well.

[lavafrogg]

Omg!!! I made it to a legacy tourney!!! Traffic was terrible and I thought I missed it but it got bumped till 7, I'm super excited, wish me luck!

[ryn ball_2]

Omg!!! I made it to a legacy tourney!!! Traffic was terrible and I thought I missed it but it got bumped till 7, I'm super excited, wish me luck!

Good luck lavafrogg!, bring in the power of junk! :smile:

@everybody: seem's like this thread has been <card>silence</card> for a couple of days, how's everybody doin'?

[sdematt]

I'm barely alive, these damn essays...so many pages of writing...

I played Thopters at the local Legacy tonight since I wanted a tiny change of pace for a bit. I like where my current Junk list is at, though.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Junk takes third at Artifex in San Diego!

I went 3-1 with the latest and greatest list of junk which is only lacking karakas/maze of ith in the 75. I played against reanimator, maverick x2 and griselbrand storm. The game I lost wasplike have been victory if I had the mana to cast a single black spell the entire match.

Round One: reanimator.

Game one: He mulligans and I inquisition to see reanimate, exhume, exhume and land. I get a bob down which leads to GSZ for ooze with mana up which ends the game shortly after.
Game two: He extombs a griselbrand and I extirpate the demon over the top of his spell pierce, he tries to find other fatties but draws the Iona and has to bin the Elesh Norn, which eats a sword to the face.
1-0

Round two: Maverick.
Game one: He GSZ for arbor, I swords arbor, he plans a savannah, I waste savannah. I get two bobs down and run away with game one.
Game two: He goes mom, Fauna Shaman, and proceeds to fetch up bad things when he has creatures, through Lilliana and discard his hand is killed early in the game and he is playing off of the top. I get a 2-1 with an EE for one(mom, arbor) and force his shaman to block my goyfs. He gets an ooze but cant activate it enough to stop the green men from crashing in.

Round Three: Maverick.
Game One: I get ahead early with a tracker and a pridemage, as the game goes on he trades my pridemage for his knight and gets an active jitte(smart); I don't draw a single black source and die with discard, bobs and Lilliana's in my hand.
Game Two: He mulligans to five and then has every mana source wasted or swords while a knight goes to town. Blowout.
Game Three: I get goyfs he gets mom and knight, noone ever plays any instants or sorceries and my goyfs and ooze start to race his unblocked or knight. I get within one life point or green mana of winning the race but I die with Bobs and Lilliana's in my hand without any black mana sources in play. How unlucky.

My opponent only knew I was playing junk from a basic swamp I had to play in game two to resolve a knight. I played zero black spells or lands other than the basic swamp in game two. Such close games.

Round Four: Griselbrand Combo.
Game one: He is playing reanimate griselbrand and do terrible things to me.dec and in game one I turn one inquisition, turn two goyf, turn three GSZ for arboannoys thoughtsieze and turn four GSZ for ooze with mana up. GG.
Game two: I keep land inquisition and teeg plus other stuff. I went turn one inquisition, turn two wasteland, turn three teeg and other beaters after. The turn before lethal he kills my with griselbrand plus children of korolis.
Game three: I keep wasteland x2 tarmogoyf knight and land after mulliganing once and wasteland him twice to start the game. I get gifts from the top of my library as I get an inquisition the turn before he was going to kill me, taking infernal tutor, and a GSZ for ooze right after. I play a GSZ for teeg the turn before lethal and he gets a griselbrand on the board from five life, swings and draws seven, and can't win over both hate cards.

I went 3-1 and felt like I had the best list in the room, if I would have draw black mana I would have played RUG in the top two and had a chance at the champ. With my credit I got Thaliax3 and a Hex parasite.

I feel like I need to get the two utility lands switched out for the correct ones, it really doesn't matter but I fel like right now that they would help in more relevant matchups.

Junk is really good right now and I never felt like I didn't have a chance to beat anyone. 4x GSZ is the correct call in my opinion as that card is always money. Tarmogoyf was a strand won games quickly and dark confidant is a boss. End of story.

Thanks for cheering me on!!

[ryn ball_2]

@sdematt: i hope you dont catch fever about that damn essays :smile:

another junk made 3-1 in mtgo legacy:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4109753

-lingering souls version w/ hymn on it, i'm not always a fan of leylines as sideboard, anyways good job boin!

[ryn ball_2]

@lavafrogg: congrats with your finish! :smile:
i'm curious what list did you used?

Tarmogoyf was a strand won games quickly and dark confidant is a boss.
+1

"Junk is really good right now and I never felt like I didn't have a chance to beat anyone."-- +1 also

[Hopo]

I get a 2-1 with an EE for one(mom, arbor!!)

Well played.

[Sughayyer]

Congrats, Lavafrogg!!!!!!!

EE for 1 got rid of mom and arbor? Isn't arbor CMC 0???

Also, post your list!!!

One more thing: 1 plague + 1 infest was not enough to hold goblins. I performed poorly last wednesday. Reverting back to 2 plagues, and deed is still good against gw.

[Mirrislegend]

I blame you guys for the silence! I've been lurking on the forum all day while at work. But nobody's been talking! I have nothing to share, as my local Legacy has died :(

I have yet to understand how Hymn is sub-optimal in any list.

A more aggro, GSZ based list could use the card advantage. A slower, less threat dense deck wants to shred their hand to prevent them from applying continuous pressure and from having removal for the few threats.

Sug has a good point about EE. Also, you think that was fun, wait til you hit Arbor, Hierarch, AND Mother with Zealous Persecution. THAT was a fun day!

@ lavafrogg: good job against some tough matchups for us!

@ryn: I see you itching to upvote things. I feel that feel bro

[sdematt]

I try to read here all the time, but I have nothing new to share.

I'm still doing VERY well with my regular list. I was playing against Sneak and Show, screwed up 3 separate times with Knight activations (I could have Wastelanded him EOT, but played it safe and didn't), and instead, he managed to get 2 red up for a single turn.

He Sneaks Emrakul, but I fetch Karakas. I bounce in the beginning of combat, but he slams it back down. I take 15 going to 1 and losing all my permanents except Knight and Karakas. I think proceed to beat him down with the Knight and win :tongue:

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I try to read here all the time, but I have nothing new to share.

I'm still doing VERY well with my regular list. I was playing against Sneak and Show, screwed up 3 separate times with Knight activations (I could have Wastelanded him EOT, but played it safe and didn't), and instead, he managed to get 2 red up for a single turn.

He Sneaks Emrakul, but I fetch Karakas. I bounce in the beginning of combat, but he slams it back down. I take 15 going to 1 and losing all my permanents except Knight and Karakas. I think proceed to beat him down with the Knight and win :tongue:

-Matt

Awesome sauce. I'm so terrified of that matchup. I'm playing 3x Diabolic Edict in my SB. What do you guys run against Sneak and Show?

[lavafrogg]

Sorry, mom hierarch was what fell to the EE. I wastelanded every arbor that was played.

I want EE over zealous for the RUG match, which I could have played.

Go go junk!!

For sneak and show- I am not scared of show and tell as I can drop a knight and bounce/stop whatever creature they drop. I can play a Lilliana before show and tell and beat as fast as possible to slow griselbrand. Sneak attack is the bitch. I will extirpate sneak attacks on sight as I really don't have an answer for it outside of karakas, which I should but don't have.

[Sughayyer]

@frogg
About the sneak & show thing, I play that way too; griselband is not a problem at all. Sneak attack + emrakul is.... especially if they have the second red mana, wich nullifies our bounce (he can just put the creature in play on the attacking phase before declaring attackers; if emrakul was already declared as an attacker, the anihilator ability triggers).
AND POST YOUR LIST frogg!
**
Last wednesday I tested -1 top +1 inquisition. I didnt like it, I think I missed the top. I also definitely can't play with 23 lands. Plus, I'm getting curious about using lingering souls instead of goyf, but I think that would require the stoneforge package to be really effective... and if I have to go this route I'd rather go BW. And last but not least, I'm considering dropping elspeth or library for the fourth bob.

Oppinions?

[Mirrislegend]

Last wednesday I tested -1 top +1 inquisition. I didnt like it, I think I missed the top. I also definitely can't play with 23 lands. Plus, I'm getting curious about using lingering souls instead of goyf, but I think that would require the stoneforge package to be really effective... and if I have to go this route I'd rather go BW. And last but not least, I'm considering dropping elspeth or library for the fourth bob.

Souls is VERY effective if you're also playing Stoneforge. I can attest to this firsthand. However, I stuck with Junk colors because the raw power of Knight, GSZ, Ooze, Goyf, and the SB options simply cannot be underestimated

Definitely put in the 4th Bob. He tends to die on sight, so with 4 you can afford to lose one or two. Gives you great flexibility in combat and in trying to bait counterspells and removal.

[Sughayyer]

I'm also thinking about the gw match, maybe instead of going into the attrition match, go full-control, relying on knight and elspeth as finishers, bringing deed, plague, infest, all removals.... don't know if it's the right thing to do, tough.

I also need some help against the esper match... it used to be easier, but here in my meta they are becoming more and more like the uw stoneblade, full-boring control... but I think it's just lack of pratice.

And yes, definitely need the 4th bob. I just don't know what to take away... maybe elspeth? her high cost is an issue, but she does so well against many matches.... or should I go 61 cards?

[Mirrislegend]

I'm also thinking about the gw match, maybe instead of going into the attrition match, go full-control, relying on knight and elspeth as finishers, bringing deed, plague, infest, all removals.... don't know if it's the right thing to do, tough.

I also need some help against the esper match... it used to be easier, but here in my meta they are becoming more and more like the uw stoneblade, full-boring control... but I think it's just lack of pratice.

And yes, definitely need the 4th bob. I just don't know what to take away... maybe elspeth? her high cost is an issue, but she does so well against many matches.... or should I go 61 cards?

If you bring in a gazillion removal spells, then you can probably go full control. If you don't, then tread carefully. Keep in mind the decks do similar things, but they do creatures better than we do.

Beating control is definitely a matter of practice.

How many Sensei's Divining Top/Sylvan Library do you play? That will determine how to balance Bob vs high cmc cards

[lavafrogg]

My list from my tourney per request:

Creatures 15:
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
1 scavenging ooze
1 quasali pridemage
1 eternal witness

Spells 18:
3 inquisition of kozelic
3 thoughtsieze
4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
3 mox diamonds
1 life from the loam

Planeswalkers 3:
3 Lilliana of the veil

Land 24:
4 wastelands
1 volrath's stronghold
1 nantuko monastery
1 swamp
1 plains
1 forest
1 dryad arbor
8 fetches
6 duals

The stronghold/monastery should be karakas/maze if your meta has a lot of griselbrand variations otherwise keep with stronghold/monastery.

Sideboard 15:
1 gaddock teeg
3 extirpate
3 choke
2 krosan grip
2 path to exile
3 engineered explosives
1 life from the loam

[Mirrislegend]

My list from my tourney per request:

Creatures 15:
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
1 scavenging ooze
1 quasali pridemage
1 eternal witness

Spells 18:
3 inquisition of kozelic
3 thoughtsieze
4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
3 mox diamonds
1 life from the loam

Planeswalkers 3:
3 Lilliana of the veil

Land 24:
4 wastelands
1 volrath's stronghold
1 nantuko monastery
1 swamp
1 plains
1 forest
1 dryad arbor
8 fetches
6 duals

The stronghold/monastery should be karakas/maze if your meta has a lot of griselbrand variations otherwise keep with stronghold/monastery.

Sideboard 15:
1 gaddock teeg
3 extirpate
3 choke
2 krosan grip
2 path to exile
3 engineered explosives
1 life from the loam

How have the KGrips been for you?
How is 3 EE? Seems slightly excessive to me.
Teeg is a major target, as he really just shuts off some decks. Consider a 2nd copy, to keep them in line

[lavafrogg]

Engineered Explosives: I wish I could go up to four, it is good in almost every matchup killing anything from zero to three on a consistent basis.

Krosan Grip: You want an out to humility, scepter chant, a way to kill a batterskull, a counterbalance or any problem target. Sometimes you just need to kill something.

Teeg: you only really want one in most matchups because they will bounce it and kill you in the same turn, against UW Miracles they have to answer all of your creatures and teeg is just a roadblock to them achieving that goal. Just a note, if you extirpate their spot removal, they can't answer a resolved teeg....You should be a walking nightmare against miracles after board. With knights, goyfs, chokes, discard, Lilliana, bob and maybe extirpates(depending on their list).

[Mirrislegend]

Engineered Explosives: I wish I could go up to four, it is good in almost every matchup killing anything from zero to three on a consistent basis

So why not play EE in the MD if it's that good?

[Jacemindbreak]

Why play EE when you have access to the best board removal in the game...pernicious deed.

[lavafrogg]

So why not play EE in the MD if it's that good?

I don't like having dead cards in non interactive matchups, swords can interact with gristlebrand and can be live against tendrils. EE is killer against fair decks but does nothing against the players that don't like to play magic.

If I new combo was a no show, I would play them maindeck in a heart beat but last tourney I played 2 mav 2 gristlebrand...

[Sughayyer]

I still like pernicious deed. I nkow it's pratically a crime when I play mox, but most matches I bring deed I put away the moxen.

I'm eager to play next wednesday and bring news, but untill then, all I have to do about this thread is read =/

I'm also starting to "pet" that loam rock/pox list I posted.... I'll test it in a bigger tournament sometime.......

[damionblackgear]

I still like pernicious deed. I nkow it's pratically a crime when I play mox, but most matches I bring deed I put away the moxen.

I'm eager to play next wednesday and bring news, but untill then, all I have to do about this thread is read =/

I'm also starting to "pet" that loam rock/pox list I posted.... I'll test it in a bigger tournament sometime.......

Legacy Daily fired. I actually entered and recorded it so you can watch this instead of reading. :)
The Event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DHYFcG_CPM&list=PL8468048D10D09E65&feature=plpp_play_all).

[Angels]

Legacy Daily fired. I actually entered and recorded it so you can watch this instead of reading. :)
The Event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DHYFcG_CPM&list=PL8468048D10D09E65&feature=plpp_play_all).
The comment you made about the Miracle player having Jace saying that he has the +2 ability, It's not good when you have a top in play plus he only has 1 card when Jace resolved.

[lavafrogg]

Is there any way we can get more value out of Karakas? I have been looking through legendary creatures and trying to find an abusable dood.

[sdematt]

You need MORE value than completely locking out your Reanimator and Sneak and Show opponents? You're worse than me playing Scrabble, where 36 points for a word just isn't enough value.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

36 is enough if it is three letters...and yeah, I want more value out of my cards!

[Claymore]

mangara of corondor if you want to go the death and taxes route

[Sughayyer]

In order to mangara to be truly effective, you need vial, and with that comes a totally different deck.

Also, I think I need to train more against esper :(

And last but not least, I said before I'm tinkering with the BG loam version... If I manage to consistently beat sneak & show, I'll probably gonnna start playing it once in a while...

[Mirrislegend]

My weekly Legacy is booting back up (200% payout):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24350-Lincoln-RI-5-Weekly-Thursday-Legacy-at-Die-Hard-Games-D (Weekly Legacy with 200% payout)

And the same store is having a big 32 duals tourney this Saturday that I encourage anyone in the Northeast to come to:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24012-Lincoln-RI-Sat-8-3-DHG-Buncha-Duals!-32-Duals-up-for-grabs!-16-of-them-Blue-D (32 Duals)

I can't wait to finally have some results to share again!

[ryn ball_2]

hello rock players i was toying around my sb currently i want to test a e tutor package and to get info about the weight of this sb tactics against non e-tutor package, here's my list (and btw i will bring his package to an unknown meta this coming saturday)

1 deed
1 dueling grounds
1 e. plague
1 tormod's
1 nihil
1 graf. cage
1 choke
1 needle
1 COP: red
2 e. tutor
2 duress
2 PTE

I already tested this list against dredge and went 2-1, but the 3 artifact GY hate is not enough the dredge player manage to destroy them all and put me into awkward position but luckly i managed to resolved a KOTR, still i feel that 3 artifact GY hate is short i'm planing to cut 2 pte for 2 surgicals.
What's your thoughts (for the whole sb package)?

thanks :)

[Mirrislegend]

hello rock players i was toying around my sb currently i want to test a e tutor package and to get info about the weight of this sb tactics against non e-tutor package, here's my list (and btw i will bring his package to an unknown meta this coming saturday)

1 deed
1 dueling grounds
1 e. plague
1 tormod's
1 nihil
1 graf. cage
1 choke
1 needle
1 COP: red
2 e. tutor
2 duress
2 PTE

I already tested this list against dredge and went 2-1, but the 3 artifact GY hate is not enough the dredge player manage to destroy them all and put me into awkward position but luckly i managed to resolved a KOTR, still i feel that 3 artifact GY hate is short i'm planing to cut 2 pte for 2 surgicals.
What's your thoughts (for the whole sb package)?

thanks :)

I think you need 3 ETutor to make a Tutor board. I'm surprised your opponent successfully fought through 3 different hate like that. Are you sure you didn't misplay any of it (E Tutor for hate -> draw hate -> not cast hate immediately -> he Cabal Therapy hitting your hate)? Your wishboard seems flexible and varied, which is always good. Maybe an EE? It's usually just a more efficient Deed against many decks.

I SB in 4 Surgical Extraction and 2 Gaddock Teeg against Dredge, and it rolls them every time. It's pretty one sided.

------------------------------------------------------

I tested against Burn a lot yesterday. I was surprised at how much I lost. Looks like my 1x Kitchen Finks is going back in my SB. I'm worried about cutting a Diabolic Edict (Sneak and Show is terrifying), but Burn is a lot more likely to show up

[rxavage]

I tested against Burn a lot yesterday. I was surprised at how much I lost. Looks like my 1x Kitchen Finks is going back in my SB. I'm worried about cutting a Diabolic Edict (Sneak and Show is terrifying), but Burn is a lot more likely to show up

I think SneakShow is more likely to show, and then leave because no one is playing legacy.:wink:

[Sughayyer]

hello rock players i was toying around my sb currently i want to test a e tutor package and to get info about the weight of this sb tactics against non e-tutor package, here's my list (and btw i will bring his package to an unknown meta this coming saturday)

1 deed
1 dueling grounds
1 e. plague
1 tormod's
1 nihil
1 graf. cage
1 choke
1 needle
1 COP: red
2 e. tutor
2 duress
2 PTE

I already tested this list against dredge and went 2-1, but the 3 artifact GY hate is not enough the dredge player manage to destroy them all and put me into awkward position but luckly i managed to resolved a KOTR, still i feel that 3 artifact GY hate is short i'm planing to cut 2 pte for 2 surgicals.
What's your thoughts (for the whole sb package)?

thanks :)

I personally like the tutor package. E. Tutor is in fact card disadvantage, however we have top, library, bob... there are a few tricks you can do to overcome that card you are losing.

About the package:

First to all @mirri: 2 is the number of tutors. 3 is terrible, you'll end up getting 2 of them, and the tutor is nothing but a mean to get the card you want, so 2 tutors is correct.

CoP: Red - you'll get a pithing needle for CoP and lose the game. Use conversion and win. Remember that for the most part burn WILL win game 1.

E. Plague: 1 sigle plague does NOT hold down a goblins deck, and may not hold down a merfolks. Because goblins can cast a matron that will die, but will fetch him a lord, then he'll proceed deploying his ridiculous ammount of pressure and you'll lose. Remember that the best turn we can play plage is 2, if we opened with mox... that is a really dangherous match. As for merfolks, he just have A LOT of lords...

Dueling Grounds: might hold off merfolks, but about the goblins, if he has siege gang + krenko, you lose. Irrelevant on most other matches. So, my suggestion is 2 plagues.

Pernicious Deed: I could say the correct number is also 2, you'll want pernicious deed to deal against many decks, like affinity, any stax variation, mud, gw.... I would even go all 3 deeds, but I have no space.

2 Duress: I use this too. No need to explain why you need this.

Cage/Nihil/Tormod's : A lot of fear. I use 1 nihil, 1 surgical, 1 extirpate, but I run maindeck bojuka bog. Why is that? Because I can get my nihil via tutor, and KoTR can fetch bog. extirpate and surgical can remove only things that you need, instant speed too (also is hard to get by an extirpate, an surgical costs no mana). See, if you play against dredge and just leave your gy hate artifact lying there, he will ancient grudge/ray of revelation/chain of vapor it and proceed on comboing you. that's why sometimes is better to use instant-speed bojuka bog - or extirpate a dredger, or bridges, etc. It needs some pratice to play against dredge, but our deck already has most of the tools we need to frustrate their plan.

PTE Now that's an idea... sometimes I just wish I had more removals.... maybe I'll try it. Ian chooses dismember over it, because with jitte/batterskull there's pratically no drawback on it, but maybe PTE could be nice.

Well, that's it, sorry for the long post, hope I was of any help.:tongue: Also, I played last wednesday and went 4th place (mehh) 3-1-1, I'll post a brief report in a few hours.

Thanks

[Sughayyer]

As I said, my quick report... in the field there were 2 esperblades, 1 UR dreadstill, 1 canadian, 2 sneak & show, 1 nic fit, 1 merfolks, 1 monoblue stasis (?!?!) 1 hypergenesis, TES... can't remember the rest, but one that I DO remember seeing was a show&tell deck that ran omniscience. Didnt play against it, but it was fun to see his match against burn...

anyway, due to an odd number of players, I got bye in the first round.

round: 2 Canadian
I win the roll, he keeps a hand with 1 snare, 1 goose, 1 stifle, 1 bolt, and no red mana. I discard his goose, throu a hymn as a bait for pierce (I judged that I'd prefer my removal spells to be resolved), found another discard then goyf, plowshared on delver, elspeth and gg. Game 2 he does fetch, I proceed on discard. I see 2 nice goyfs (nice because I had a pulse), then I take away a counter (can't remember wich) proceed on seize, after he resolves the second goyf, pulse, then hymn, taking 2 submerges away, and I play my goyf. I was at 9 and he cast his delver. I thought to myself "either I find something or I lost", and play bob - if I didin't find any solutions I would die anyway, and bob at least hits. delver does not flip, bob reveals nice lands and I cast deed to deal with delver. GG

round 3: Esperblade
I really don't know if I was cheated on that one, but He cast 4 fows and 4 stp on me, both on game 1 and 3 - he answered EVERY relevant noncreatuer spell I attempted (noncreature being anything that is not a lybrary and a top) wit ha counterspell of some kind, and plowshared EVERY creature. I lost g1, he kept a greedy hand that was wastelockd on g2 (thus making me win, because, come on, you cannot play if you have no lands or if you keep U.Sea, waste, no brainstorms and think you're gonna make it) and g3 time called and ended in a draw. I'm still trying to swallow the 8 forces and 8 plowshares one after another.

round 4: merfolks
game 1 I am able to disrupt his hand, but I never get to put real pressure on the field and he ends up winning. Game 2 E. plague and the absence (or removal) of lords from that side, paired with goyf and KoTR made me win. G3 I got a plague on hand and a top and thought I was fine. I wasn't. No removals, no threats, nothing but a top, a plague, and lands. I looked like at every fetchland I cracked the lands multiplied in the deck :tongue: I lost, obviously.

round 5: boros
game 1 even with disrupts, he didnt cast a single creature, only unleashed burn spell after burn spell. Of course, he won. G2 1 KoTR and Liliana kept me going even after I was PoPped. Game 3 it was alike, except for the fact that I poured all goyves (plural form of goyf?) and a reliquary on the field, backed by liliana. Also, burn-type players must realize that vexing devil is a terrible card to use against reliquary decks. He will just never attack, nor cause the 4 life loss.

Well that's it. I should train more, because I did a lot of mistakes, too, namely in the merfolks match, but as I said, I'm happy with the deck and the list. Ended in 4th place and won $40 \o/

Again, thanks for all oppinions and support.

[Sughayyer]

I think SneakShow is more likely to show, and then leave because no one is playing legacy.:wink:

Didn't get it at all.

[Mirrislegend]

Didn't get it at all.

rxavage is the owner and operator of my LGS. I didn't play Legacy tonight (because something very important came up). So he's being an asshat to me, that's all :tongue: But I'll forgive him because he donated a bunch of cards for me to give to kids learning to play MtG :smile:

[Mr. Safety]

With Merfolk coming back, or at least trying, I'm testing 4x Deed maindeck. We shall see if it works...or if I'm a fool, lol.

[Mirrislegend]

With the DHG 32 duals event coming up tomorrow, I am considering EE (over Zealous Persecution) in my SB, if only to hit Merfolk. Really not sure though. Depends on what I see, I suppose?

[sdematt]

You play at DHG? I was there at the tournament before GP Providence :P

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

thanks guys for the input about my e tutor sb! and yes i will drop dueling grounds and add plagues and EE still i will retain my cop: red (atm i'm in buying of conversion :tongue:) i will only test this once and eventually move to non-e tutor sb (maybe?)

Goodluck to everyone that will participate in a legacy tourney!
If i manage to catch up later at my local i will send a tourney report :)

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- I have been saying it for a little bit now but EE is a house against all of the fair decks, especially RUG and Maverick. It helps against faster aggro decks like Merfolk and goblins, and can come in for dead cards against empty the warrens combo or artifact mana that they play out to get around discard. Elves is hurt by EE at one and Merfolk can scoop to a well timed EE at three.

Right now I would even say that EE 1-4 are better than pernicious deed 1, as a rock player you want your creatures/enchantments/permanates on the board instead of deeding away everything. This is even more true when you run 4 tarmogoyfs as you can blow up all knights or moms and beat face( not to mention keeping bobs alive).

Long story short: play 3-4 in the board as your maverick and rug hate and use it in other matchups as a bonus.

PS EE also gets around Thalia!! Deed cost 4 to play under the white hate bear, which is a lot considering maverick plays wastelands and knights.

[Sughayyer]

Merfolk can scoop to a well timed EE at three.


The only card merfolk plays at 3 is Kira.

EE is great, but I still prefer deed because of its broader range (example, in merfolks it destroys vial as well). EE at 3 destroys out liliana as well, while deed keeps our planeswalkers safe. I think that's a metagame call.... I dunno

And good luck for all who are participating in tournaments today! I unfortunatelly won't :(

[lavafrogg]

Sorry, 2 or 3, 12 of the lords cost 2 and 4 cost three. I got it backwards last time, this only further solidifies EE as you can blow it for two and keep your knights alive!

[ryn ball_2]

sorry guys i dont made it today cuz of heavy rains here so i wasnt able to catch up at my local :frown:

merfolk at 3 cmc, i believe they still play Merrow Reejerey along side 2 kira's i guess but still EE for 2 is really awesome against them can blow away many annoying lords and even phastamal images. Atm i'm planing of a 2 deed, 2 EE split, EE is faster than deed if you wish you blow away certain things that doesnt affect either of our bobs, sdt, etc.

@sug: do you run 24 lands right? alongside 2 mox d?, i'm tweaking my dark horizon's manabase test whether 23 or 24 lands is ok :smile:

[Sughayyer]

@Ryn

Yeah, I run 24 lands and 3 moxen, it seems ok for me.
My current manabase is:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains
next wednesday I'll take away my plains and put sejiri steppe, I think it'll be worthwhile.

EDIT: the correct number of moxen is really 3. 4 and we'll just draw too many of them, and with 2 the only function they execute is to be a terrible topdeck mid-late game

[ryn ball_2]

@sug: thanks for the info! and also sharing your manabase :smile:
if i ever got my 3rd bayou i will try this list:
3 bayou
3 scrubland
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog

Atm i used: 2 bayou, 2 scrub, 2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains, 8 fetches, 4 waste, 3 utility lands, i include 2nd swamp due to hymn's and liliana's casting cost w/c is seem's fine
ideally i have 4 lands immune to wasteland, but 4 duals are susceptible to wasteland.
Anyways if i ever got the 3rd bayou i will the list right away :)

[sdematt]

In all honesty, running a mix of EE and Deed isn't a bad idea.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

In all honesty, running a mix of EE and Deed isn't a bad idea.

-Matt

this is exactly the thing i was thinking about, and i am allready running 1 EE in my MD, running a 2nd one in the side, together with 2 deeds

[Mr. Safety]

The only card merfolk plays at 3 is Kira.

EE is great, but I still prefer deed because of its broader range (example, in merfolks it destroys vial as well). EE at 3 destroys out liliana as well, while deed keeps our planeswalkers safe. I think that's a metagame call.... I dunno

And good luck for all who are participating in tournaments today! I unfortunatelly won't :(

Merrow Reejerey is at three, but you could argue that Kira is the more important target to nail with EE/Deed because of the protection she provides.

PW's are why I like Deed over Explosives as well. I don't EE for three very often, more often than not 2 is the magic number, especially against Fish. Against Goblins three is much more prominant because their lords are at three (Goblin Chieftain/Goblin Warchief)

I have an EE, I can certainly start testing it. I also feel rather strongly that Eternal Witness should always be included as a 1-off in a GSZ package. 2011 calls to me...

[Sughayyer]

I also feel rather strongly that Eternal Witness should always be included as a 1-off in a GSZ package. 2011 calls to me...

I agree. I would run witness myself if I had space, it's just too great. Pair with stronghold and your opponents will have a hard time.

[sdematt]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48462

Junk placed in the Top 20 .Good job to Jeff!

If you're a member, care to say how you felt about the list?

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Ya i saw that list.

I think he went overboard with the sylvan library and tops. and then there is 6 1 cmc discards.

I think I would have preferred another swords to plowshares and another pridemage

[sdematt]

He's obviously using my list and crossing it with Ian's, and he's made some cuts to fit it all in. I don't agree with the numbers, for sure, but it obviously got him there and won him $100.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

congrats Jeff Kieper!! another junk list :cool:
yeah sdematt that list is an hybrid of your list and ian, interesting ajani caller of the pride in the SB, love to see the interaction of sofaf triggers and maze of ith activation, i did it way way back, anyways if you are a member here jeff share your tourney report :)

[Sughayyer]

Congrats for getting "there"! I would like to give an opinion about his list, but all I can say is that it looks like a cross-breed between Matt's and Ian's builds. I don't agree with some choices (I would never run more than 1 library, and the correct number of tops for me is 3), but then again my style of play is totally different - I tried to run Matt's and Ian's list, both ARE good lists, but it's just not my way of playing...
Anyway, once I suggested that we post our builds (the ones that are actually making results or that are being playtested) and comment about the choice of each card, along with metagame/playtested matches info. I'd like to suggest this again, I think we all could learn important things about that. What do you think?

[sdematt]

Sure. I'll definitely post my list and analysis after my exams. Last one's on Wednesday, so you guys won't have to wait long.

Plus, I've got most of the Russian stuff now for this deck, it is just in the mail :)

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Well, since at least one person agreed about the analysis, I'll start... hope more people do so.

a) Hand disruptions:

3 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek -> Most people will agree that inquisition is still one of the best discard spells available. However, sometimes we want to take away that force of will, or jace, or batterskull, and the 2 life is a small price to pay. I once ran 4 seizes, then 4 inquisitions, then 2/2, and now I'm at 3/1. Probably will revert to 4 seizes again. The 1cmc discards are often the most important spell to cast first turn (often, not always) - it gives you information about you opponent's hand, and paves the way for your threats (or remove a threat for wich you have no answer, or an early trump in his favor, etc)

4 hymn to tourach -> now this is a long debate. Some will say that it's better to play 8 1cmc discards, others will say the correct number is 6, some shun hymn, others love it. I'll explain my choice for hymn: this is a tempo build, and on such a deck, the hymn to tourach works wonders, because it denies you opponents resources, threats, answers, or more than one of these. Paired with the 1 cmc discards, it wrecks such a havoc on combo decks that make it a bit easier to win. Sometimes it is a dead card, true (namely, against goblins, where thew best strategy is to neutralize their deck instead of attempting discard a always-replenishing hand -- and miracles, where they pretty much play out of their top). Hymn to tourach also gives a better chance against burn decks, and more often than not, a turn 1 hymn is devastating.

b) Creatures:
3 dark confidant -> the correct number is four, but I currently don't know what to take away to add the fourth. Nevertheless, he is a powerful creature, that baits counterspells and removals - because if he stays on the field for more than 2 turns, you already got a great card advantage (a friend of mine calls bob the "mini-jace") He gives you cards, he swings for 2, and paired with the library manipulation of the deck there is very little drawback.
4 tarmogoyf -> another controversal card. In a more midrange or controllish version, he is indeed a bad card, because he has 2 functions (thanks Ian): he swings and he stares. However in a tempo build when we cast him we are getting more than what we paid for. He usually gets on the field already as a 4/5, forcing your opponent to have an answer. Against merfolks, it eats one fish per turn (usually). Of course, decks that rely on goyf today do have issues, namely against scavenging ooze, that starts off small, but quickly builds up (and often withering goyf), getting bigger than goyf, and maybe even gaining life in the process. But against combo/burn decks, this deck WANTS pressure, and fast, and the card that does that specific job better than almost all.
4 knight of the reliquary -> one of the best creatures on legacy. He is big, he fixes mana issues, he fetches utility lands. He gets bigger every turn, he helps to thin the deck (I don't know statistically how much of this is valid) fetching lands every turn, and he can even protect your manabase - and depending on the utility lands you use, he can protect himself or other creatures.

c) Library manipulation
3 sensei's divining top -> it gives a virtual card advantage, and is dark confidant's perfect mate.
1 sylvan library -> i think of this as a fourth bob that doesn't attacks, but can't be removed easily. Of course, the life loss it provides is much reater than bob's but it's optional - and lets you select your draws too. All in all is a powerful card, and not easy to remove.

d) Removals
4 swords to plowshares -> still one of the best removal spells of the format. costs 1 mana, has little drawback, and can be used on your dudes if you need some extra gas (almost obligatory when facing some decks).
3 maelstrom pulse -> yes, sometimes I miss vindicate. Then I realize that most games can be won by tight technical play than trying to screw my opponent's manabase with it. Pulse has also the ability to hit multiple targets and this might prove much more valuable than the ability of wrecking lands. When your opponents have so many lands, or so many cantrips that your land destruction simply doesn't matter (unless you are a deck that only does LD bu that's not the case) AND these decks can also easily counter your land destruction, the value of a pulse to get rid of tokens from lingering souls, entreat the angels, or merely doing a 2x1 on an opponent for any other reason becomes more apparent. Also, this build does not run pernicious deed on main deck.

e) Mana fix
3 mox diamond -> Sometimes I wish I had 4, sometimes I wish I had only one (it happened already to draw 2 in a row). But It seems that 3 is the right number. It can fix the manabase, it can ramp a turn, it does lots of nice things. It's harder to crack than a dual land, it gets by moon effects, and it makes it possible for us to play around submerge.

f) Planeswalkers
1 elspeth, knight-errand -> double white and a cmc 4 sounds hard to cast in a deck that needs double black so much, and has 3 colors. But this build runs mox, 24 lands, and reliquary that fixes mana issues. She can act dfensively ou as a recursive threat by adding tokens, can put your dudes in flying mode (plus +3/+3), and generally ends the game. She is also big, and her abilities only add counters, so every turn she gets a little harder to kill.
2 liliana of the veil -> aside from beating our opponents with fat creatures, this deck does 2 things: discards and removals. She does these 2 things, helps stabilize the field, is a great asset against untargetable creatures that we need removed, etc. We have plenty of pinches for her discard ability: exceeding moxen, tops, discard spells when they become irrelevant, lands that pump our knights. This deck often is able to cast her on turn 2, and this usually trumps the game. And of course, she is great against combo and burn as well as useful in some control matches.

g) Manabase
This deck runs 24 lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
2 bayou
4 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp

Tomorrow I will boldly try 1 sejiri steppe instead of the plains.

Sideboard:
2 elightened tutors: I have some enchantments and artifacts on the sideboard, and tutors help using a toolbox-like board. It is in fact card disadvantage, but bob, top and library help to overcome that.
2 pernicious deed: Once I ran 3 pernicious deed maindeck. Bt moxen is currently helping to win more games than deed. It is still on board because of decks like mud or affinity, and is great against many tribal decks.
2 engineered plague: It works wonders against elves, helps a lot against merfolks, and 2 plagues are almost always required to get through goblins. It also helps against other decks that rely on creatures of the same kind, like some deadguy ale builds.
1 conversion: This sounds silly, but once my metagame was packed with burn decks. In a meta wich an average of 20 players on wednesday and ~30 on saturdays, 3 decks is a high number. Since CoP can be pithing needled, and most burn decks are not prepared for this card, it is usually a trump.
1 choke: works well against miracle decks, and is good against bug and esper too.
1 infest: currently still on test, to help against goblins, merfolks, elves, faeries, spirits....
2 duress: up in the combo, burn, and miracle matches.
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 nihil spellbomb -> these help against reanimator, 43 lands, a few combo (I won against a spiral tide deck by activating a spellbomb in response of a time walk, exiling most cantrips of his deck and making he draw a bunch ou counterspells and lands - also works against IGG loop, and past in flames). Surgical costs no mana, extirpate is hard to get around, spellbomb can be tutored AND replenishes itself giving you a draw.
1 life from the loam: this is here just "for good measure".

Other useful cards to consider: pithing needle, thrun, the last troll, any instant-speed edict, gerrard's veredict (only if there's another major burn outbreak).

Decks in my metagame: esper, sneak & show, omniscience show & tell, reanimator, burn, boros, bw stax, 43 lands, canadian treshhold, ur stiflenought, gw, bant, nif-fit, dredge, TES, spiral tide, miracles, hypergenesis, affinity, MUD, merfolks, goblins, deadguy ale... well quite a few.

Whew. It was long. I think if we all do this we can all learn a lot of things!

[Crust]

Hi. I've been playing Rocklists för a couple of years and right know I'm playing Ians version witch fits me nicely since I like Sfm.
Been reading this thread alot and I've learned extensively. Thanx!!

About the E-tutor SB. I started testing Conversion against Burn and that is a win. But did anyone have any luck with it against Gobbos? Seems to me like a pretty good idea if it hits the table early.

About Infest that is a nice and fast sweeper. I've been playing Massacre for a while and it works very well against Maverick and sometimes very well of well against Elves. What's your opinion on that?

Thanx again for big input on Rock-builds!

[Sughayyer]

Crust, I don't think conversion should be brought against goblins, because they rely heavily on vial, and it's a 4 cmc spell that will not bring and automatic victory (and by your 4th turn you will already at your wit's end against goblins). If I would bring a 4 cmc against gobbos, it would be damnation.
Massacre seems fun against gw. But then again in most other matches is another 4 cmc spell that can be replaced by damnation (again) or infest itself. One more thing, I NEVER played infest in a real tournament because I never drew it playing IRL! Can you believe it? I even considered adding a second one, but there's already too much hate toward creatures, I can't afford to take another card away for a second copy.

[ryn ball_2]

@sug: nice recap about your build, we almost share common cards in our build, atm i run 23 lands plus 1 pernicious deed in the main while having 2 pernicious deed in sb atm i cant test the e-tutor sb cuz no legacy in our local firing up hope this coming saturday we can make it run. Btw sug why you dont run pernicious deed in your main is there any reasons? i know it clashes w/ our mox diamond, but for me i felt uncomfortable facing annoying creatures or pernaments in game 1 so by that i dig my pernicious deed thru SDT and KOTR shuffling effect.
I'm planing to move to 24 lands but i'm thinking of increasing my deeds i will make 2 deeds in the main and removing all of my diamonds making 1-missing slot open
( -3 mox diamond, +1 bayou, +1 deed, +1 unknown card) what will you suggest? i will test 24 lands w/o diamond, btw reason why i increase my deed to 2 cuz many aggro decks are showing in our local from the new merfolk list, some random aggro decks to annoying sam black's list. Still what will you suggest for my 24 lands w/o diamond?

thanks!

[Sughayyer]

@ryn:
I used to run 24 lands and no mox, 3 maindeck deeds and 6 1cc discards (plus tourach) but this was before liliana was printed. It is a good build, and using deed, we can go towards vindicate instead of pulse (just a wild guess here, I don't know if vindicate beats pulse nowadays, for many reasons). I think deed+liliana+kotr is really a great combination to have in one deck! However moxen are winning a few games for me in my current meta. Anyway, good luck!! When I get home I'll write some more. I'd like more people posting their deck analysis too!

[AggroSteve]

i used a 24 land no mox build as well, same as sughayyer, i used 6 1cmc discard spells and 4 hymn to tourach, but as well, this was before liliana was printed
in a 24 land no mox build i would definitely suggest using deeds, specially if your meta is aggroinfested.

right now in a 24 land no mox build i would suggest 6-8 1cmc discard spells with 2 lilianas, no hymn (more suited for tempobuilds with moxen), and maybe a toolbox like SFM or GSZ, whichever you prefer, or maybe only using more deeds/EE.

hope i could help a little^^

[Mr. Safety]

I agree. I would run witness myself if I had space, it's just too great. Pair with stronghold and your opponents will have a hard time.

I'm working on getting the Stronghold.

Also, I play it as card 61 (24 lands, no Moxes for reference.)

[Mr. Safety]

i used a 24 land no mox build as well, same as sughayyer, i used 6 1cmc discard spells and 4 hymn to tourach, but as well, this was before liliana was printed
in a 24 land no mox build i would definitely suggest using deeds, specially if your meta is aggroinfested.

right now in a 24 land no mox build i would suggest 6-8 1cmc discard spells with 2 lilianas, no hymn (more suited for tempobuilds with moxen), and maybe a toolbox like SFM or GSZ, whichever you prefer, or maybe only using more deeds/EE.

hope i could help a little^^

This sums up my exact direction: 24 lands (no mox), GSZ package, maindeck Deeds (explosives in the board), 2 Lilis, and 7 discard spells (4 Duress, 3 Raven's Crime). My metagame is indeed infested with aggro decks.

[Sughayyer]

Actually today I did some more testing, and after talking to a teammate and reviewing plays and results, this weekend I'll be testing a list with 23 lands, 3 moxen and 2 deeds main deck.

[ryn ball_2]

@everybody: thanks for all of your inputs!! greatly appreciated :smile:

@sug: if you manage to test 23 lands 3 moxen 2 deed, let us know its result :smile:

@damionblackgear: striking at mtgo legacy, it fired and i saw your list 8/7/2012 and 8/5/2012 is there any videos for this event? :smile:

[damionblackgear]

@damionblackgear: striking at mtgo legacy, it fired and i saw your list 8/7/2012 and 8/5/2012 is there any videos for this event? :smile:

No video's for those events. I'm a little lazy and wanted to just record the Sunday noon-ish (Central) events. Turns out I should have done the 5th, as my first round was against LSV, but going to 5 for mana lost games 1 and 3 for me. The 7th I lost to burn (1-2). I proceeded to then 3-0 in both instances.

GL to anyone going to KC this weekend.

[ryn ball_2]

@damion: ah i see no worries about that :smile:

I went 1st place in a 14 man legacy tourney (4-0), decks are goblins, maverick, RUG, doomsday combo, MBC, junk, UW control, UW counterbalance miracle, sneak show
Remember guys we are discussing about e-tutor SB and it was great :smile:

List

2 bayou, 2 scrubland
2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
4 verdant catacombs, 4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas, 1 maze of ith, 1 bojuka bog

4 dark confidant, 4 tarmogoyf, 4 knight of the reliquary

4 thoughtseize, 4 hymn to tourach, 2 liliana of the veil
4 maelstrom pulse, 4 swords to plowshares
3 sensei's divining top, 3 mox diamond
1 pernicious deed

SB
2 enlightened tutor
1 pernicious deed, 2 engineered plague, 1 engineered explosives
2 grafdiggers cage, 2 extirpate
1 choke, 1 pithing needle, 1 oblivion ring
2 duress

Matches
R1 vs goblins: 2-0
R2 vs MBC: 2-0
R3 vs goblins: 2-1
R4 vs sneak show: 2-1

Highlights of the matches
1) 2 online engineered plagues on both goblin matches (thanks e-tutor!)
2) misdirected my hymn and stripped off my KOTR and o-ring
3) 2 dark confidant in play against MBC

Finally i bought mirage enlightened tutor and a playing set of conversion before the match started (cuz i was looking for this card anywhere in my place luckily i found those card in the new shop we participated) :smile:

Thanks guys for the help!!! :smile:

[Sughayyer]

I will not be able to attend to the tournament today =/
@ ryn: this is the dark horizons list, only replacing vindicate with pulse and gerrard's veredict with liliana. imho, is fantastic. And congrats!!!!

[ryn ball_2]

I will not be able to attend to the tournament today =/
@ ryn: this is the dark horizons list, only replacing vindicate with pulse and gerrard's veredict with liliana. imho, is fantastic. And congrats!!!!

thanks sug! :smile:
Yeah i reconfigure the dark horizons list replacing vindicate with pulse is pretty good! also liliana i love her added removals and hand size reducer :smile:
Atm i love my list, this was the list i used when i got 1st place also, battling 2 rugs, reanimator, kithkins (several page up) only questionable about the list was the 2nd swamp :rolleyes: it is good at opening turns to easily cast hymn w/o being wastelanded but in late turns not that profitable to crack by KOTR :smile:
Loving also the e-tutor package atm i'm confuse between 2 SBs cuz both are good :smile:

[Sughayyer]

You know, I really love that list. The good results I made in tournaments were all with that list.. I don't know why, when I started tinkering with other lists my results were not that good. Maybe I should just get back to that (also find another bob asap, someone borrowed mine and disappeared).
The 1 deed main/2 deed side is just enough. It is not a problem with mox.

EDIT: About the lands, we are playing a 3 color deck. If we fear wasteland we will not play at all.... also we got mox :)

On a different subject, as silly as it may be, I found out that pithing needle for sensei's divining top works wonders against miracles (and counterbalance as well).

[Rummelboxer]

Hey!
At first: Sorry for my bad english!
Its my first Post at TheSource after a long time of following this thread.
Since an half year me and my friends started visiting legacy-tournaments.
A short time before Ian Ellis took the first place at SCGs (Gratulations for that!) i thought that TheRock isnt the right choice, but when i read about his results i switched back instantly! (Otherwise i would play aggroloam now)
So i kept playing TheRock and just arrived at the following list with which i´m really happy now:

3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
2 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
1 plains
1 swamp
1 forest
4 wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

4 knight
4 bob
3 tarmogoyf
2 ooze

4 swords to plowshares
2 thoughtseize
2 IoK
3 duress
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the veil
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
2 EE

SB:
3 thalia
2 Choke
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extraction

My Choices:
The Creature base
I thougt a long time about playing the playset bob, knight, goyf
but ooze is very often just to good to cut. i think a creature base
whitout sfm-package (i never tested it - tell me the opposite :-D)
and GSZ seems to be more aggro/faster.

Liliana: i replaced her for cataclysm. i love cataclysm, but liliana is more
flexible as cataclysm an does the same. she has to be handled or she
cleans up the board
seven cc1-discard: to get cataclysm through. cataclysm is no more, but
discard is still fine to decimate the enemys options.
4 moxes: ooze,bob,library t1 is just great. t1 discard and an open mana for StP
is equally not bad.
LftL: with moxes, wastelands and liliana really good. disrupt the enemys tempo-plan also.
EE: moms,hierarchs,mongoose, a billion zombies etc. not in my house!

just a short statement for my choices. i think my sideboard could be optimized. i would like to have better answers on control and aggrodecks.

[Sughayyer]

@Rummelboxer
I understand all that you said, and I agree. Just a few questions: is replacing the 2 duresses with 1 iok and 1 seize a bad idea? And isn't playing Loam in maindeck a bit dangerous without witness and volrath's stronghold? Also, 4 moxen isn't too much?

And yes, sfm package + gsz is SLOW..... you're absolutely right.

[Rummelboxer]

@Rummelboxer
I understand all that you said, and I agree. Just a few questions: is replacing the 2 duresses with 1 iok and 1 seize a bad idea? And isn't playing Loam in maindeck a bit dangerous without witness and volrath's stronghold? Also, 4 moxen isn't too much?

And yes, sfm package + gsz is SLOW..... you're absolutely right.

You may be right with the discard-composition. i didnt thought about it intensive, but the thought i made about it was to disrupt the spells which are the main-problems in most cases. In my opinion are those spells removal, planeswalker and counterspells. in these cases duress totally does its job.
I dont understand why LftL MD should be dangerous without witness and stronghold. It allows you to throw lands in moxes without carddisadvantage and lock the oponent via wasteland. I really like witness an stronghold, but this gadget sounds in my opinion better on paper than in play, because you need a lot of resources for a slow lock.
four moxes because im avaricious for t1 bob,library, ooze.. as i said in my mainpost.
but i thought about a pridemage for a mox, because i lost two games because of pithing needle. on the other hand on pridemage could be random as an option on those situations.

[ryn ball_2]

You know, I really love that list. The good results I made in tournaments were all with that list.. I don't know why, when I started tinkering with other lists my results were not that good. Maybe I should just get back to that (also find another bob asap, someone borrowed mine and disappeared).
The 1 deed main/2 deed side is just enough. It is not a problem with mox.

EDIT: About the lands, we are playing a 3 color deck. If we fear wasteland we will not play at all.... also we got mox :)

On a different subject, as silly as it may be, I found out that pithing needle for sensei's divining top works wonders against miracles (and counterbalance as well).

Same here when i tweak my list to sfm, gsz-type, combination of two it gave me result were not that good and i dont know why, maybe playing style?? i cant guess what's the reason(s) behind.

Btw do you usually side-out mox diamond? or what matches do you sided out that card?? lemme know :smile:

It works needling a SDT against counterbalance (miracle as well), but it also shuts down our sdt too, do you think there is other way to attack that counterbalance? Considering we use our list cuz other list ran gaddock teeg w/c we dont use.
Actually i dont know how to handle that deck using my current list :frown:

[Sughayyer]

@rummel
I don't know if I understand it, but pithing needle naming mox does nothing, since mana abilities cannot be countered. You are also right when you say witness-interactions are slow.
@ryn
I side-out mox on... almost never. Some matches (elves, affinity) you need a quick deed, and mox helps you. On GW, you need a quick deed, they have great mana-disruption, but they can't rebuild the board very well (my plan is hand-disrupt, spot removal only what I need to stay alive, then deed asap). RUG has heavy mana disruption, and mox helps you to go to stage 2 - their plan is to try to keep you on stage 1, their stage 3 happens with 2 lands on the field, and they can hardly deal with heavy pressure in a better way than trying to outrace you (and outracing a 10/10 fatty is hard).
The "lost mox" usually makes little difference agaisnt a deck that can't rebuild very well. About std to top, yes, this shuts our top. However, we can strip their removals and try to force a bob... from there will be win, they put no pressure. On those strange mixture decks that run counterbalance, souls, sfm package... the deck just tries to do too much and usually doesn't do nothing well. Pernicious deed is the key in these cases.

Talking about deed, I forgot how good this card is. Sometimes I miss my old list with 3 deeds.... but can't fit moxen in that list, and moxen ARE good.

[lavafrogg]

I will side out my mox diamonds in the UW matchup knowing that I can out bring in better cards that do not need to be played explosively...ie Choke, Lilliana... and I find myself slow rolling cards more oftern then playing out my hand especially Dark Confidant.

Rumble: You should look into GSZ if even as a light package, the card is nuts and not slow in the slightest. It takes you to 6-7 first turn acceleration plays and 10+ turn one plays. It is good all around.

[damionblackgear]

I see a bunch of things being talked about that all boil down to Consistency and Versatility.

Stoneforge drops to play on turn 2 (typically) and you play a fattie (batterskull) shortly after (same turn as a knight). if the mystic dies, you've filtered and forced them to discard. It's not exactly slower, it's just a different threat. No, she's no threat without equipment though. I'll admit that.

Green Sun is again, Consistency vs Versatility. You get options with Green Sun. Options are both good and bad. I know that if I play 3 Zenith, all of my green creatures have 3 "virtual duplicates" (extras that do not count to the total actual number played). Yes, you pay one more but what does it matter in the later game?

Both of them are good/bad options for the deck. They open you up to different things just as not having them does. Stoneforge makes your aggro match-up better. GSZ the control. They both make the other worse (paying 3 for Goyf makes it slower than normal and Mystic isn't amazing against miracles...). All that being said, Goyf isn't very good against Show and Tell.

Overall, it's just give and take. you have to adjust to what you're expecting/playing.

[Sughayyer]

Very well said. That is why you and matt get great results always (not making little of other players). Agree 100%. But I have one question: doesn´t playing style also interfere in that choice?

[damionblackgear]

Very well said. That is why you and matt get great results always (not making little of other players). Agree 100%. But I have one question: doesn´t playing style also interfere in that choice?

I think preferences should come into play when you play but, that's because I believe everyone should have fun when playing. If someone's playing simply to win, I wouldn't help them. This isn't a job, it's a hobby, I won't knowingly help anyone change that.

[sdematt]

School's finally out. I''ll be posting here as often as I can for the next while, once again :P

-Matt

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I am switching for my local right now from Maverick that i've been playing since the printing of KotR by now because my metagame got some heavy control and a few Goblins, where Maverick is on the lower end... but i simply can't let go of my KotR's (playing Bant in between sometimes).

My list for now is the following:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Ghastly Demise


I welcome any input about my list, for now i always thin about taking in Absolute Law for my local meta. What do you guys think about Natural Order/Progenitus 3/1 for the sideboard?

Edit:

I love 2 additional Ooze + 2 Umezawas Jitte sideboard in place of Garruk and Thrun + Ghastly, still im not sure wher to settle on, as it stretches my manabase.

2 Dueling Grounds are in consideration to get rid of the Plagues, they do handle Krenlko quite well :)

[Sughayyer]

Again I'm putting my nose in here ehehe
Dueling grounds seems a great option against goblins at first. Until they get Siege Gang Commander, and explode all their goblins in your face (with Krenko's help). That's why I keep Engineered Plague (and I DO need both Plagues against goblins).

[damionblackgear]

I'm up in the air regarding dueling grounds. If it's a choice between that and Plague, I'm all for Grounds. To be honest though, I'd rather have ways to stop it getting out of control (not as limited as Plague) than a fail-safe for when they do.

ryn ball_2, You wanted video. Here you go. This is from today's daily (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86T6pGV44So&list=PL3A3539E3BF954577&feature=mh_lolz).

Edit/addition -

For anyone wondering, the lands match isn't as hard as it may look. You can fight this deck more effectively than other decks due to the fact that we fight in 3 zones (Hand, Graveyard, and battlefield) before we get to the sideboard. Limit the amount of lands your opponent can play and take out relevant things. Don't just go for the Loams, Cycle lands can be just as important along with Maze and Wasteland (What good is casting loam if all the targets disappear). Actually getting the Loams is a big thing though. Count on your Ooze and Pulse/Vindicates to do the tricks needed for the yard. Let you Knights deal with issues that come up. We provide them with the same issues maverick does, except we can get Totem off the board.

[sdematt]

Our 43 Lands matchup isn't too bad at all. Between Ooze, Surgical, and Thoughtseize, we've got the stuff to deal with their stuff. We've got tutorable Wastelands for Glacial Chasm, Pridemages for Crucible, basic lands against Wasteland, and Planeswalkers to hinder interaction in general.

It's not our best matchup by far, but we can win it, especially since most new Lands players are awful and don't know the interactions as well as they should.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Our 43 Lands matchup isn't too bad at all. Between Ooze, Surgical, and Thoughtseize, we've got the stuff to deal with their stuff. We've got tutorable Wastelands for Glacial Chasm, Pridemages for Crucible, basic lands against Wasteland, and Planeswalkers to hinder interaction in general.

It's not our best matchup by far, but we can win it, especially since most new Lands players are awful and don't know the interactions as well as they should.

-Matt

Not our best, but close enough.

[Kl'rt]

Does anyone else here have crazy difficulty fighting Miracle Control?

Just playtested against Max's Top 8 GP Ghent list and got decimated several games in a row. Everything relevant I played got countered or killed and I didn't have nearly enough Maelstrom Pulses/Vindicates/EEs to stop all the Jaces, Counterbalances and Vedalken Shackles.

What's everyone's experience against this deck like?

[KobeBryan]

Does anyone else here have crazy difficulty fighting Miracle Control?

Just playtested against Max's Top 8 GP Ghent list and got decimated several games in a row. Everything relevant I played got countered or killed and I didn't have nearly enough Maelstrom Pulses/Vindicates/EEs to stop all the Jaces, Counterbalances and Vedalken Shackles.

What's everyone's experience against this deck like?

I play bant, and I have a hell of a time going up against UW mircale. Bant is similar to Rock (blue instead of black), the gameplan is nearly identical, but that match is HARD.

[ryn ball_2]

@damion: thanks for the vidz! i'll be watching this today after a long hell of work finally i got my free day :laugh:

@36/43 lands: this match isnt bad at all cuz we had good disruption and GY hate package, btw luckily in our country only 3 players pilot land.deck but 2 of them are not active anymore so there is a high chance of probability i never encounter them :smile:
(building a 36/43 lands in my country is so difficult due to duals, fetches, utility land prices and availability so many players are not so engage to build one)

@miracle control: this past sunday a major legacy tourney fired (w/c i failed to participated due to my work sched) 3 miracle decks and 1 punishing fire nic fit made it to the top 4, and i never played against miracle deck and i felt like this is a bad match up cuz those decks are better control than ours.

I'm thinking of this cards against them:

1) choke -----sure hit

2) chains of mephistopheles ----is this card really worth against miracle decks? i know they do lots of library manipulation and cantrips, and there miracle triggers are from drawing stuffs. Lemme know your thoughts :smile:

3) krosan grip ---somewhat classic card vs counterbalance

4) gaddock teeg , thalia, guardian of thraben --this guys are really good but miracle decks run karakas and stp i have the feeling that is cards are short against them.

Lemme know your thoughts! :smile:

[sdematt]

Gaddock Teeg is pretty much a must. Ooze lets you gain advantage against Snapcaster. Choke is a must, as is Thoughtseize.

Krosan Grip would definitely be good against Counterbalance, Top, and Shackles, as would Pridemage.

The main problem with facing Miracles is you need enough creatures on board to apply pressure when facing many Swords to Plowshares, but you can't go all-in because Terminus X-1's you. That's the main problem, but also the nice thing about playing Goyf and Knight. Lots of pressure, few actual threats.

Garruk is also good for token generation, as would Elspeth. Hymn also wouldn't be too bad here, since pinpoint discard is good, but knocking out many cards would also be fine. It also begs to be Spell Pierced, leaving you available to push stuff like Pulse through.

Chains of Mephistopheles could be interesting again, for sure, especially if they're running 4 Storm and 4 Ponder, along with the times they're drawing off Top and Jace.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys!!! Yesterdey I attended to a tournament at the local store, but I used a totally different rock-based deck, just for a change. After pondering, thinking about some lists, putting all the cards I like in front of me, I scrambled this:

Lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
1 scrubland
2 bayou
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
1 forest
4 swamp

Instants:
1 darkblast

Sorceries:
4 innocent blood
4 smallpox
3 cabal therapy
2 inquitition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize
3 life from the loam
3 lingering souls
1 worm harvest

Artifacts:
3 mox diamond

Enchantments:
3 pernicious deed

Creatures:
4 bloodghast

Planeswalkers:
3 liliana of the veil

Sideboard:
3 oblivion ring
1 darkblast
1 the abyss
2 e. tutor
1 pithing needle
2 e. plagues
2 duress
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction

I assembled it a few minutes before the tournament, hence some funny cards. A few remarks:
No pulse?!?! -> I figured that if I dredged a pulse I would make a bad poker face, and dredging a lingering souls could lead me to victory. The quantity of tokens is usually ok to hurt planeswalkers, and deed kills everything else. O-rings on the side because of show & tell and also as an "universal removal".
The abyss -> toooooooo slow.
Tutors -> didn't know what to put, alas I would be happier if I used 2 needles and 3 plagues.

I finished 3/2. Quick report:

Round 1: Goblins
Game 1: he wins the rol, plays lands and passes (no vial, no lackey.... ), I cast seize, remove a matron, then I play mox, and cabal therapy the instigator. He draws a lackey, I cast smallpox, he draws and passes, I cast liliana, he draws nothing again, I dredge into lingering souls and he concedes.
Game 2: he opens very fast and beat the living s**** out of me, I scoop at round 3 after he had a lackey and was about to cast the second thorn of amethyst.
Game 3: I start with discarding his thorn, innocent blood to remove a lackey, then plague. He gets a chieftain and a piledriver. For no apparent reason, he attacked with the chieftain and I blocked on my mishra. I start punishing him, but he finds nother cheftain and cast krenko, then proceeds on muitiplying his gobbos. However I had enough tokens and 2 mishras, so he wasn't attacking (he should, I'd probably lose), giving me enough time to dredge into a darkblast that hit his chieftain and cleaned the board again leaving me open to swing for lethal.

Round 2: esper
Game 1: I had a nice start controlling the board (he kept a crappy hand, tho). However he managed to put jitte on the field, Had a force to my pernicious deed, and not even liliana and worm harvest could stop his lingering souls tokens from winning.
Game 2: he cast 3 extirpates on me (WTF?!?!?!??!?!?!?) forcing me to scoop.

Round 3: elfball:
Game 1: I cast deed on turn 3, but it was the same turn he managed to cast ezuri and roll me over with elves (he had mana to activate his ability 2 times)
Game 2: Darkblast and a cyce land helped me to kill every elf he cast down, then I drew a liliana, and flashbacked lingering souls, and he scooped.
Game 3: I commited a stupid technical error attempting to darkblast a heritage druid totally forgeting symbiote's ability. needles to say, the next turn emrakul visited me.

Round 4: merfolks
Game 1: he opened a poor hand, with few threats. I quicly cleaned his hand, cast liliana, worm harvest, and I proceeded to cast a worm harvest each turn (after the third time I cast worm harvest he ralized he could not get through the dozens of tokens.
Game 2: I do mulligan to five, he had 2 lords. End.
Game 3: pretty much a replay of game 1, except it was bloodghast, mishra and lingering souls instead of worm harvest. Even after he cracked relic of progenitus on me, I simply found more threats and continued on the beating.

Round 5: monoblack (the gate, maybe?)
Game 1: A missed therapy revealed ritual, hymnn to tourach, and removals. he does ritual into hymn, and discard a loam and a darkblast. Nice. I start to dredge it all, cast a deed, find a liliana, he has to sacrifice his obliterator, attempts a bitterblossom that helps me kill him with my 2 bloodghasts and a mishra.
Game 2: Pretty much a replay of game 1 - he cast plague aiming at spirits (shits down ghast and souls) but I calmly attacked with mishras and then cast a deed to get rid of some unwanted things (plague included). He attempted to cast bob twice, but darkblast was in my graveyard already. From then it was sjust swing.

I ended 3-2 with a deck that was totally assembled a few minutes before the tournament. I liked it, and I realize a few things: 1) I need to learn how to paly, because I make A LOT of technical mistakes 2) With the esception of extirpate effects, grave hate does not hinder this deck (provided you paly around it, of course) 3) Sometimes I wish I could bring dredged cards back to me, I must be careful since there's no Top and I never know what I'm going to dredge 4) I need a different win con that is less grave-depended on the side.

Well please give comments, suggestions, complains, and remarks about this (please just do not come and say "you're cold losing to burn", this I already know)

[damionblackgear]

Anyone interested (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-lsv-omniscience-legacy-event/), the match I lost to LSV was recorded on channelfireball.

[Mister M.]

Anyone interested (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-lsv-omniscience-legacy-event/), the match I lost to LSV was recorded on channelfireball.

Is it just me, or does LSV come off a tiny bit arrogant in the comments on your match?

[damionblackgear]

Is it just me, or does LSV come off a tiny bit arrogant in the comments on your match?

meh, its fine either way. Mulling to 5 helps a lot. Also, 4-0'd today's daily (recorded it because my first round opponent typically does so i figured we'd get both side... he didn't. They'll be up when I'm around a better upload speed.

[Mister M.]

Allright then. Looking forward to the new vids!

[Sughayyer]

Congrats on 4-0 today!!!

Also, I don't wanna be annoying, but I'd like comments on that pile I scrambled for last wednesday... ideas, remarks, anything.... I mean, I wonder if is worthwhile to put some effort in turning that into a deck?

[damionblackgear]

Congrats on 4-0 today!!!

Also, I don't wanna be annoying, but I'd like comments on that pile I scrambled for last wednesday... ideas, remarks, anything.... I mean, I wonder if is worthwhile to put some effort in turning that into a deck?

At first glance I thought you recreated the Truffle Shuffle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3816-Deck-The-Truffle-Shuffle&highlight=truffle+shuffle). I've never played something like it so I don't think I'd be a good source of advice for the deck but, I know that there are a bunch of people who have (Trisomy 21 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15846-Primer-quot-Trisomy-21-quot-Bgw-Loam-Control&highlight=trisomy)).

the promised 4-0 Daily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErqH9Qw0xhw&list=PL2521DB9015A99E2D&feature=mh_lolz)

[sdematt]

I'll post about it later on.

-Matt