[Deck] The Rock

[BlackStarDeceiver]

the promised 4-0 Daily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErqH9Qw0xhw&list=PL2521DB9015A99E2D&feature=mh_lolz)

Round 4: Minute 25:30

After persecuting the mom you probably should have equipped your Bird via Knight to activate Jitte and kill his board. :)

[damionblackgear]

Round 4: Minute 25:30

After persecuting the mom you probably should have equipped your Bird via Knight to activate Jitte and kill his board. :)

There were no counters on Jitte to give bird an attack power. I should have held the persecution until his EOT so I could've gotten any other x/1's that my opponent played as well.

[Mr. Safety]

Just dropping in a troll with my updated Loam list. I have given up on Armageddon (not great), worked in 1x Liliana (probably need 2) and after testing 4 maindeck deeds I have dropped to 3.


4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks

4x Duress
3x Raven's Crime
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Life from the Loam
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Profane Command

3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
3x Wasteland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Treetop Village
1x Nantuko Monastary
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard

2x Kitchen Finks
2x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x ???


I'm still really curious about getting in 1-2x Sylvan Library. Not sure what I would cut, probably some number of Pulse/Deeds.

Basic plan is to play disruption/control, ride Loam for card advantage, toolbox threats with GSZ. I was warned (thankfully!) about the danger of putting too many things into the deck. I think focusing on those three elements is where I want to be. I have done well in testing (online, MWS) and I actually played (and beat!) Aggro-Loam due to Leyline of Sanctity g2-3. I can hard-cast somewhat reliably so I if the first gets Pulse-ed or destroyed, I can play another turn 3-4.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

There were no counters on Jitte to give bird an attack power. I should have held the persecution until his EOT so I could've gotten any other x/1's that my opponent played as well.

Well, you played Persecution :D

I'll give rock a shot for tomorrow if i make it to our local.

[Sughayyer]

@Mr Safety

I wouldn't play library in a loam deck. I think top would be better for 2 reasons: 1) you will know when to dredge or not, since you can actually see what is going to grave and 2) you can activate it's second ability to do another dredge (don't know if that would be actually relevant).

Btw I was playtesting a list that used no goyf, but lingering souls and sfm package. Didn't play it a lot, but seems nice

[aljiichiban]

Tried the following list:

4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares
2 liliana of the veil
1 pernicious deed

3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond

2 bayou
2 scrubland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog

SB
2 pernicious deed
2 perish
2 diabolic edict
2 choke
2 duress
2 grafdigger's cage
1 tormod's crypt
2 extirpate

Came up with a local tourney result: (4-1)

Rd 1: Burn 2-0
G1: I went down to 6 but he ran out of gas while Goyf beats face.
G2: Land, Mox, Hymm. Then duress after. He never recovered.

Rd 2: RUG Ctrl 0-2
G1: I mull to 5.
G2: I got stuck on 3 lands. Sensei wasn't much of a help.

Rd 3: UW mill deck(?) 2-0
This deck runs with herdon crab, archive trap and other mill spells.

G1: Played Mox, and fetched, which he responded with 2 archive traps. Goyf lands at "7/8", then KOTR at "12/12". He smiled in dismay. OH YEAH!!!
G2: Some early disruption on his wall creatures and I let him mill my deck. KOTR lands at 8/8, then Goyf at 6/7. They made short work of him.

Rd 4: Reanimator. 2-0
G1: I managed to land a Goyf and resolve a liliana. Early edict abilities delayed him and I landed a 2nd liliana as well after the first one ran out of loyalty counters.
g2: I mulled to 6 then got a tormod's and grafdiggers.

Rd 5:Dredge (phantasmagorian build) 2-0(play for sweep)
G1: My opening hand was too slow for him as he got his engine going.
G2: 2 Thoughtseize on his 2 street wraiths and an extirpate on his golgari grave troll slowed him down. KOTR and Goyf starts to beat face.
G3: I opened with 2 moxes, 3 lands, KOTR and Tormod's. During the course of the game, I drew 3 fetches, STP and duress. I popped my tormod's when he binned his 1st bridge. Then 1 duresed his second bridge to keep him from having 7 cards in hand. Then I responded to fetch with bojuka bog through KOTR when bridge's triggers were on the stack. The female Knight at 8/8 went all the way.


thanks for reading.

[Crust]

At first glance I thought you recreated the Truffle Shuffle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3816-Deck-The-Truffle-Shuffle&highlight=truffle+shuffle). I've never played something like it so I don't think I'd be a good source of advice for the deck but, I know that there are a bunch of people who have (Trisomy 21 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15846-Primer-quot-Trisomy-21-quot-Bgw-Loam-Control&highlight=trisomy)).

the promised 4-0 Daily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErqH9Qw0xhw&list=PL2521DB9015A99E2D&feature=mh_lolz)

Thanks for the vids, I´ve been watching these and the other you linked. I play your list and have been doing so for a while and i really like it. Tested against RUG, Dredge, Maveric (tried Infest in SB against Mav and that was a blast : ) today and it went very well. Also tested against UW Miracle but that was harder. Dont exactly know what to do against them and SB, I guess Choke, Thalia is good. Whats the plan in this matchup?

[Sughayyer]

@Aljichiban
Albeit I'm currently testing with different decks, that build you used is mine and ryn_ball's (if I'm correct) list of choice. Congratulations!

[ryn ball_2]

@Aljichiban

Congrats with your finish!!! i like the list pretty looks similar to mine only differ was the SB i'm currently running e-tutor package but yeah your SB is good too very well fitted in your meta (i guess :smile:)

@Sughayyer

What build[s] do you want atm? :smile:

@damion

Nice videos!! you ate maverick like a boss! :smile:. Btw in your 3rd game Round 1 vs maverick in the situation the maverick player played only karakas i think you should waste it before playing your bodies (cuz they were STP'ed via karakas) so that he will be left behind the game but so be it he was left behind :smile:

[Angels]

@Ian

Thanks for streaming the Maverick MUs.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Went 3-1-1 today with nearly your exact list Ian. I played 1 Loam and 1 Engineered Explosives in the board instead of Choke #3 and the Duress. 1 Maelstrom Pulse main was replaced by another Engineered Explosives.

R1 2:0 against Punishing Maverick: Pretty unspectacular, Waste here and there, removal here and there, stabilizing at low life each game with an Equipment online.

R2 2:1 against UW Terminus: The usual thing, you get lucky or you don't, he missed Teeg once while trying to miracle Terminus and i was able to race his 2 Angels with Jitterskull and Teeg.
R3 2:0 against ANT (Timo Schünemann, GP Ghent Winner): Long story short, he drew poor game 1 while i got Liliana on turn 2. Game 2 he wanted to go for ETW turn 2 and named Deed on Therapy off an Cabal Ritual while i had Explosives and Teeg. Dropped Explosives 0 and Teeg next turn and seized the Pyroclasm he wished for.

R4 0-2 against Goblins, missed a Tabernacle or Dueling grounds here, did not expect so many green men as well, so i wasn't really prepared. In addition, my mate drew well (natural drawing Scrapper g1 and 4 Lands for the T4 Batterskull) and i bricked an some draws. He got first, so everything was fine for me.

R5 ID against Esperblade: We played for fun, he won 2-0, we played more i won 3-1... thats how it goes :D

I feel like you really want either Tabernacle, Deed or Plagues against Goblins, Pulse and Explosvied aren't really that impressive against them.

[damionblackgear]

Good job on the finish. How do you feel the deck ran for you? How did you like the changes? Anything you would change now?

I know it can be weird playing without the Tabernacle. How long have you been without it. It took me about a month to stop trying to rely on it when I cut it. Maze was a better "manaless" land in the end for me. It also let me drop the Kor Haven which fulfilled a similar requirement and gave me room for the 3rd Wasteland.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The list is solid, i simply feel very uncomfortable in testing against Goblins and the Lingering Souls nutdraw from Esperblade. I wouldn't want to play the Tabernacle maindeck but i think that a slot in the board could just do it or maybe using two slots for a double Dueling Grounds.

Explosives were awesome, especially against Maverick (4-1 trade) and Blade/Terminator while they have the same weaknesses against Goblins as Pulse by simply handling Vials or Tokens and not very much along. Batterskull and Jitte are a liability because of Scrappers and Pyrokinesis while Dueling Grounds is unimpressive without Mother of Runes, Elspeth or protection red. What do you think of Absolute Law? We had 4 Goblins out of 22 players yesterday which placed 1st, 2nd and 6th so i might need a better answer :D

[ryn ball_2]

@BlackStarDeceiver congrats with your finish! :smile:

I went 9th place yesterday in a 22-men legacy tourney, i made some modifications like -1 pulse, +1 deed so i have a 3 pulse 2 deed split w/ the same list i used and posted here several pages up. Currently i run a SB package like this
2 perish
2 path to exile
2 engineered plague
2 duress
2 choke
3 graffdigger's cage
2 extirpate

Btw meta yesterday was merfolks, elves, esper stoneblade, DnT, RUG, maverick GW and punishing, the gate, Pox, burn, Sam's black zombies, rogue deck (elementalis deck), dredge, Bw stoneblade, bant

Here's my report

R1 vs Pox: 0-2, this deck totally wreck me

R2 vs punishinf maverick: 2-0,
good disruption in game 1 and another disruption in game 2 and resolved cage wins!

R3 vs bant: 2-0,
game 1 hymn leads me to victory, stripped his land and no land play after several turns from his side thanks hymn!, game 2 PERISH sweet :smile:

R4 vs esper stoneblade: 0-2
countered and disrupt me brings me in an awkward position, even in game 2 i have good disrupt he countered them all and in late game my deck gave me lands, no significant answer to his board so i scooped.

R5 vs elementalis rogue deck: 2-1
just an aggro deck but i have good board sweeper and removals :smile:


After the match i'm toying around this list

4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
3 lingering souls

4 swords to plowshares

3 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight-errant

3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond

3 bayou
3 scrubland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog

any comments??

thanks!

[Sughayyer]

After a looong silence
@ryn_bal
I played around with deadguy ale for a change.... and I remembered why I liked this deck: lingering souls is really nice.

I was wondering about this:

3 seize
3 iok
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
1 jitte
1 sword of fire & ice
4 knight of the reliquary
3 lingering souls
2 liliana of the veil
2 pernicious deed
3 sensei's divining top

...this makes 35 cards.... thinking if I should go 24 lands or 23. Can't fit mox in there too... maybe -1 top + 3 mox and go 23 lands? Still thinking about it.

[Crust]

Sug.
Did u try Infest in SB some more?

[Sughayyer]

@Crust
No, I didn't. I'm testing different builds, and trying to find something solid AND with a good MU against most decks in the meta. Currently I'm trying to leave maindecks Pernicious Deeds, at least 2 of them, WITHOUT dropping the moxen (maybe I'll have to leave 1 life from the loam in there).

However as I said before, I played around with deadguy ale, and I loved the lingering souls + stoneforge pack. I'm still unsure of what to do, because there's zero synergy with deed.

[Fizzeler]

I recently acquired Bayous and was building this deck for Modern, now I decided to create the legacy version (any recommendations would be appreciated)

Current list:

4 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa (these will be Marsh Flats)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Plains (1 will be a scrubland)
2 Razorverge Thicket (will be Scrublands)
1 Vault Of The Archangel (testing this)

2 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Despise
2 Darkblast
2 Go For The Throat
1 Dismember
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim (cutting these for more disruption/Liliana Of The Veil)
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Lingering Souls
4 Chrome Mox (will be Mox Diamonds)
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Quirion Dryad
1 Wild Mongrel (this will be a Quirion Dryad)
2 Life From The Loam
3 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben

I know the deck is a mess and is missing Raven's Crime so any uh recommendations?

[Crust]

@ Sug
Ok I see. Came to think about Tristal Pölzl deck from GP Ghent when I read about your list. He played a more controllish version with 4 Liliana and hymn. I tried a version of his list but didn't really like it. Gobbos ran me over för example. Tristan is playing too few creatures in my opinion, my playstyle didn't match that list, I like more of a midrange like Ian's.
But for your list I would suggest atleast one more Lill, she is good on her own but with the synergi cards ( LS, loam) she is even better. If u use the moxen EE is a good sweeper. When I tried EE MD it was sweet against a lot of decks, for example it helped in RUG match against Mongose, and against Miracle angels!

[ryn ball_2]

After very stressful sunday legacy major tourney 80 players i got 18th place with really frustrating loses against burn-type decks (UR delver, RDW).

Here's my matches
R1 and R2 bye's (i got free bye's during preparation of the major tournament in every shop who will be the top finisher in their week-end legacy tourney)

R3 vs sneak show: 2-0
R4 vs UR delver: 0-2 :frown:
R5 vs RDW: 0-2 :frown:
R6 vs UW miracle: 1-1
R7 vs UWR miracle: 2-0
4-2-1

LIST
4 bob, 4 KOTR, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymn, 2 liliana of the veil
3 pulse, 4 STP
3 SDT, 3 mox d
2 deed
2 bayou, 2 scrub
2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
4 verdant, 4 marsh
4 wasteland
1 karakas, 1 maze of ith, 1 bojuka bog

SB
2 perish
2 engineered plague
1 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 choke
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 grafdigger's cage
2 extirpate

CONCLUSION
1) Really frustrating defeat in burn decks i dont have lifegain spells/abilities, maybe i will cut 2 thalias and to be replace by finks or any life gain spells
2) miracle match-up isnt that hard i even laugh when he terminus my bob and he do it few times (1 terminus: 1 bob ratio, pretty good??? he loses terminus but i can recast my bob(s)) good disruptions and even sweet i resolved a liliana of the veil limiting his hand size :smile:. Plus miracle decks are kinda slow early turns they will set up things w/c is good for us disruption and discards at our early turns
3) I have a positive results against sneak show i even made a double hymn to tourachs on the same turn :smile: sweet

Future plans
1) i think i will add krosan grip just to stop the enablers of counterbalance (SENSEI)
2) i have a list in my mind that will go like this -2 goyf, -1 liliana, +1 sorin lord of innistrad, +1 elspeth, +1 land (to make it 24). we will see
3) chains of mephistopheles seem's good against miracle decks hmmm

thanks guys!

PS: @sug: in your deadguy-like list i think drop your 2 deeds and add 2 zealous persecution or add 2 EE is that it doesnt affect your creatures esp. lingering souls and i go to batterskull instead of sofi cuz that skull is a body when ETB. I think 2 tops are good cuz there are high density of relevant cards w/c are can be drawn w/o the help of SDT maybe go to 2 SDT, 3 mox d.

[ZeinVoncy]

@ ryn
Trouble with burn or anything along those lines, then as sdematt would suggest, Timely Reinforcements.

[ryn ball_2]

@ZeinVoncy: thanks! :smile: i realize that card after the tournament i will do a 2-timely after the tournament, results are 4 burn-type decks made it on the T8 (ur delver, rdws)

[Fizzeler]

So I am updating my list to this:

4 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Vault Of The Archangel (testing this)

2 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast
2 Go For The Throat
4 Hymn To Tourach
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
1 Sorin, Lord Of Innistrad
1 Liliana Of The Veil
1 Bitterblossom
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Lingering Souls
4 Mox Diamond
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Quirion Dryad
2 Life From The Loam
1 Sensei's Divining Top

[Trailbreaker]

After very stressful sunday legacy major tourney 80 players
2) miracle match-up isnt that hard i even laugh when he terminus my bob and he do it few times (1 terminus: 1 bob ratio, pretty good??? he loses terminus but i can recast my bob(s)) good disruptions and even sweet i resolved a liliana of the veil limiting his hand size :smile:. Plus miracle decks are kinda slow early turns they will set up things w/c is good for us disruption and discards at our early turns


UW Miracle is pretty good matchup against Rock. What's funny with using Terminus on a creature that gives you a card advantage? You only run 12 creatures hence; the correct strategy was Terminus for BOB (which can be chumpblocked later by SCM), while STP for serious threats like Goyf and KOTR.
So i think this guy is trying to prevent you from getting card advantage from BOB while he's soft-locked with Choke.

Laugh. Laugh hard, fo real! while calling him.. was what that? "Master". Master Dan. that's sarcastic dude. lol.

[sdematt]

I think Miracles is definitely a deck, so prepare for it. If you have disruption backed with early, big threats that are out of range of early Shackles (like Goyf), you'll be fine.

I think against Miracles, you'd want a ton of disruption effects. I played against it a few times, and the times I lost were when I disrupted, but had nothing to back it up. Eventually, I ground the garbage out of him with Knights, though.

Grip would be good if you're expecting a ton of Miracles. Taking out Tops, Shackles, and Counterbalance is pretty sweet. Also, if they're running Moat in the main, that might be great as well. Choke cuts them down pretty hard as well. Garruk is great as well, since he'll usually sit unmolested for long periods of time pooping 2/2 Wolves. Terminus loses value immensely in this situation.

Chains is also a very good card as well. Without being able to draw off Top and Brainstorm profitably, you're just ripping their hand apart. I may bring this back into the side if I'm expecting a ton of Miracles to show up.

@ Burn

Again, play Timely if you expect UR Delver to be existing in your meta. It swings the matchup in such a ridiculous fashion if it does resolve.

@ Everyone

I'm going to start tweaking the maindeck again with the rise of Miracles and see what's what. It might be time to bring back Hymn to Tourach, but I'm unsure. Time will tell.

As well, sorry for not posting a whole bunch, I'm writing an article for Eternal Central, but not on this deck, actually. The next article, if the series takes off, will be about Junk, so never fear!

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

UW Miracle is pretty good matchup against Rock. What's funny with using Terminus on a creature that gives you a card advantage? You only run 12 creatures hence; the correct strategy was Terminus for BOB (which can be chumpblocked later by SCM), while STP for serious threats like Goyf and KOTR.
So i think this guy is trying to prevent you from getting card advantage from BOB while he's soft-locked with Choke.

Laugh. Laugh hard, fo real! while calling him.. was what that? "Master". Master Dan. that's sarcastic dude. lol.

i'm not pushing an argument that the said execution is really funny, i'm only asking that is it pretty good? i know it gave me advantage but on my side i think swordsing a bob is good because bob handles all the threats thanks to his upkeep triggers and can be recast if i manage to get the same bob (i assume my bob counts are still the same) after terminus and/or terminusing a goyf or kotr+goyf is good to bye him some time for SCM beats. i'm not pushing it to have laugh on him and maybe you overlook that smiley icon that icon that is for liliana and again i'm not pushing boastful faces about a resolved liliana, for me liliana is one of my 'out' to have a hand control whilst of my all threats are countered. Still i respect him as a player and not so boastful to announce that i beat him.

[Sughayyer]

@ryn
don't worry, we all understand what you meant and it's ok. Also, I don't see the need of such an agressive response like the one you got in a nice forum like this.

@fizzeler
you got many nice ideas, but thare's only room for ONE deck... what I mean is, instead of using many different strategies, you must focus in one, and your choice of cards must reflect that. I see a lost vault of the archangel in a deck that uses some of the biggest creatures on legacy. I see a lost bitterblossom, wich is a card that is good if played on early turns (that's why you would need 3-4 to get any profit from it). I see a mix of removals, but the best removal is still swords to plowshares, because it gets rid of things that this deck otherwise couldn't (it's hard to deal with a creature equipped wit sword of feast & famine for example). Quirion driad is in there for apparent no reason... etc.
I don't want to be mean, nor am I making fun of you. I'm just saying that you must focus on a particular strategy, and your choices must be synergical to that strategy. For example, as much as I like Knight of the Reliquary, the last time I played The Rock in a tournament I used bloodghasts. Because my deck was based on liliana, pernicious deed and smallpox.... and so on.

[Mirrislegend]

I've noticed that everyone in this thread seems to be low on win conditions these days. Including Bobs, the average I'm seeing is 12. How does that play? Do you ever feel doomed by just a few removal spells?

I'm making a build change from 19 to 17 threats, and I'm frankly kinda worried about it!

[Sughayyer]

@mirri

That's why I'm divided in 2 opposite directions: the first one, is to add sfm+souls to the list - and maybe leave 1 deed, I feel it's really needed - but I'm not sure if I can fit moxen in it.

The other is to go to a more controllish version, the one I last used in a tournament, relying on deed, lili, smallpox... then I used mishras, ghasts, souls, worm harvest... but unfortunately I had to forfeit reliquary in that build.

I DO feel confortable when I get to control the game in that sluggish way, but I also like to play "tempo-oriented". But our BGW build isn't well suitet to tempo anymore, I guess, and controlling via sfm equip + souls is also nice. However, predictable. Until I make up my mind I'll be playtesting both versions, but in my current meta (the store I play) deadguy ale is being the best choice for me (hence this desire to use sfm and souls in a Rock deck).
I hope this post isn't too confusing, I'm leaving for work right now :tongue:

[ForlornEgoist]

Whelp, after much playtesting I've decided to revert Deadguy back into Rock.

Out of curiosity, has anyone playtested Ulvenwald Tracker perchance? I happened against a player using this in MWS and noted that it could be quite a viable card against decks such as Maverick. Thoughts on its playability?

Forlorn Egoist

[KobeBryan]

Whelp, after much playtesting I've decided to revert Deadguy back into Rock.

Out of curiosity, has anyone playtested Ulvenwald Tracker perchance? I happened against a player using this in MWS and noted that it could be quite a viable card against decks such as Maverick. Thoughts on its playability?

Forlorn Egoist

I play bant and I thought of using ulvenwald.

But these rock, maverick, and bant lists are so tight, its difficult to play ulvenwald. If you need to add any other card, ulvenwald is usally the first to go.

[Sughayyer]

I *DO* know I'm repeating myself, but anyone remembers when cards like vindicate (now, pulse) and pernicious deed were all the answers we needed?

It was just a moment of nostaly.

[KobeBryan]

I *DO* know I'm repeating myself, but anyone remembers when cards like vindicate (now, pulse) and pernicious deed were all the answers we needed?

It was just a moment of nostaly.

I always thought pernicious deed was good. I did think pulse was always better than vindicate because I didn't care for the mana destroy route.

[damionblackgear]

Out of curiosity, has anyone playtested Ulvenwald Tracker perchance? I happened against a player using this in MWS and noted that it could be quite a viable card against decks such as Maverick. Thoughts on its playability?

Welcome back.

I'd like to point out that Tracker can be (please pardon my speech) F*****G AWESOME! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZZavEjvf4A) I've been running him since AVR has been legal and I haven't thought about taking him out except when he was a concept. It is in the board though; mainly because it's terrible against control and combo ...except Elves.

I'd recommend using GSZ (You probably are already so this is probably a pointless statement) as multiples aren't as good as they may seem and looking to pull into a 1-of isn't too thrilling either.

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, when I first looked at my opponent using him I did a double take; "Uh, yeah, sure, seems like a legit GSZ target." [/sarcasm] However, after I started doing some playtesting I started to realize the possibilities for him. Not only can he act like removal on a stick, he can be an extra way to force my opponent to use Mom triggers, etc. I've opted, like you, to keep him in the board as he seems to be a good ideal for certain circumstance.

Although, an issue I'm having getting back into Rock is the same issue I had a year ago wherein I was struggling to find the perfect mix between SFM and GSZ. Its difficult when I want to run 1 Qasali/1 Goyf/1 Terravore/etc. but also realize the necessity of a SFM toolbox.

Forlorn Egoist

[damionblackgear]

Although, an issue I'm having getting back into Rock is the same issue I had a year ago wherein I was struggling to find the perfect mix between SFM and GSZ. Its difficult when I want to run 1 Qasali/1 Goyf/1 Terravore/etc. but also realize the necessity of a SFM toolbox.

Why not Zoidberg (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8281&iddeck=60356)

...as a starting point.

[sdematt]

Ulvenwald Tracker had been very good, and I used him to great effect tonight. Negating Thalia's First Strike is pretty great, especially if she has a Jitte equipped. Mowing down small guys, forcing Knights to fight and die, forcing Mom activations, etc. were all stellar this evening, especially for baiting them into other removal spells. It lets your big guys do work and take out chump blockers.

All in all, it's been stellar.

-Matt

[Fizzeler]

So I have been testing Quirion Dryad (as I don't have any Goyfs or Scavenging Oozes), I like it, running it alongside Darkblast gives you a cheap way to pump Dryad and all the cheap Discard and Lingering Souls in the deck help as well

I have also been testing a singleton GSZ, with Bob's help this card gets in my hand often enough that I think 1 is the perfect fit as it just tutors for the threat I need (Either Dryad or Knight Of The Reliquary).

Has anyone tested Sorin, Lord Of Innistrad? When he hits the board he seems good pumping Lingering Souls and gaining you some life, but I keep flipping him off a Bob and losing 4 hurts really bad :frown:

[Mirrislegend]

Why not Zoidberg (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8281&iddeck=60356)

...as a starting point.

Self promotion always draws a critical eye from the wary. However, the advice is legitimate, I know it's not borne of ego, and the delivery was impeccable. I approve! :laugh:

Moving on! Uvenwald sounds like a "test it before you bash it" kind of card. Honestly, I'm not sure I can even test it, given that I have only 2 GSZ and my only flex slots are the 6 that I'm currently splitting between Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf (I'm gonna take 3/3 for a spin. I know it's a sin, but with my deck now playing fewer threats, my threat quality must be higher).

To be honest, I think Tracker would be much better in Bant. They lack the wide and awesome array of removal that we have access to. And their counterspells are less effective than our discard in handling creatures.

[sdematt]

But you should still try it before you knock it.

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

I personally like the idea of using Ulvenwald Tracker. Most times my opponent will try to remove or keep it off the field, and I don't mind them wasting some removal on it for some of the bigger guys. If it stays, then generally landing another creature of relevant size gives you board control.

[Angels]

Scrubbed out (1-3) playing Ian's version. Made some bad calls on 2 games. Against Goblins on the play, I first turn SFM getting Jitte (had Batterskull in my hand). Opponent had turn one Vial. I had Pulse in my hand, but decided to use the SFM's ability to put Batterskull into play. He then Pyrokenisis and put out goblins each turn using Vial. Not detonating Vial cost me the game.

[Mirrislegend]

Scrubbed out (1-3) playing Ian's version. Made some bad calls on 2 games. Against Goblins on the play, I first turn SFM getting Jitte (had Batterskull in my hand). Opponent had turn one Vial. I had Pulse in my hand, but decided to use the SFM's ability to put Batterskull into play. He then Pyrokenisis and put out goblins each turn using Vial. Not detonating Vial cost me the game.

I do not understand. If he shot your token, just bounce and replay it. It may take a few turns, but Stoneforge can block Lackey. Sounds like he can't get so far ahead that Batterskull can't bring you back!

@ daimon: It just clicked for me that you played only 3 Knight of the Reliquary, with 2 GSZ. Ever feel like you were shortchanging yourself on possibly the best card in the deck?

[damionblackgear]

@Miri, Can you blame me for promoting my list? It's pretty much what he asked for. I just always advise it's a starting point. Not a locked in stone list.

On your other question - I've rarely had issue with 3 knights and 2 Zenith. The Zenith and SFM are packages introduced to create randomness into the opponents options. I'm starting to think of dropping one package for the discard. With so many SnT decks, discard is better but I may be able to find room in the board to change packages as need be. Whatever I do, it won't be in time for SCG Minneapolis. So, I'll be running either this, Bug, or Bant. We'll see which at the player meeting.

[Fizzeler]

@Miri, Can you blame me for promoting my list? It's pretty much what he asked for. I just always advise it's a starting point. Not a locked in stone list.

On your other question - I've rarely had issue with 3 knights and 2 Zenith. The Zenith and SFM are packages introduced to create randomness into the opponents options. I'm starting to think of dropping one package for the discard. With so many SnT decks, discard is better but I may be able to find room in the board to change packages as need be. Whatever I do, it won't be in time for SCG Minneapolis. So, I'll be running either this, Bug, or Bant. We'll see which at the player meeting.

I think 3 Knights is the right number, I say maybe drop Zenith for more disruption I tend to run 1, sometimes I think it is to much as I can only tutor a few creatures with it

Honestly nothing is better than turn 1 Hymn against a SnT deck, you either bait a force (causing them to lose 2 card) or hit 2 cards.

[sdematt]

Here's the list I won last night's Legacy with:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith

--Sideboard--

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements

Round 1: Duncan with Mono Black Aggro

Duncan is new to Legacy and decided to attend his first sanctioned tournament! Hooray! Unfortunately, Mono Black Demon of Death's Gate combo deck is great at the kitchen table, but Junk just has the answers. I ripped apart his hand Game 1, then Wastelanded him off of Lake of the Dead, and quickly followed with Knight and Goyf. He died.

I didn't board, and he landed turn 2 Demon of Death's Gate. I had Swords, and then killed him quickly. The round was about 7 minutes long.

1-0

Round 2: Nixon with RUG Delver

I know Nixon is on RUG, so I keep a strong hand with discard and Goyf. I crush his creatures, Wasteland him off Green, and then proceed to beat with Knight. He doesn't have answers fast enough and I play around Daze and Spell Pierce.

Board in: +2 Timely Reinforcements, +2 Choke, +1 EE
Board out: -1 Garruk Relentless, -3 Maelstorm Pulse, -1 Ulvenwald Tracker (incorrect, should have boarded out a Thoughtseize)

In Game 2, he has the perfect hand with a Turn 1 Delver into turn 2 Mongoose, and I'm curving into Inquisition --> Sylvan Library. Library resolves, but I need to take an extra card to get a Goyf in play. I misplay when I'm at 3 mana. I had mana to play Timely Reinforcements or to just Swords his Delver and keep mana open for Pierce. I go for Timely, since I don't have much time, and I get Dazed out of the game. Had I Swords and waited for the extra mana, I think I may have pulled out. Oh well.

In Game 3, I have to mull to a 5 card hand consisting of Maze, Bayou, Tarmogoyf, Wasteland, and Inquisition. I keep, and go Bayou --> Inquisition and take Brainstorm. He drops Volc and Ponders. I wasteland. He drops Delver, I drop Maze. I then drop Goyf and play Arbor. We get into a bit of stalemate when I draw Knight. I drop Knight and eventually the board becomes my Knight and Goyf versus Goyf, Mongoose, and flying Delver. I start getting on the Wasteland plan when he has Mind Harness. Frick. Luckily, I Engineered Explosives on X=1 and blow that plan away. He drops another Goyf and we enter a stalemate. I attack with Knight for 8 damage while I'm at 11. He drops to 11, and he counters 2 Timely Reinforcements and my Choke. Damn.

So, the board gets the point where he's on a 3/2 Delver, and two 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. I have dropped Ooze the turn before, so I'm at Ooze, Goyf, and Knight at an 8/8 still, but tapped. He Wastelands my Maze, so I block Goyf to Goyf, and Ooze to Goyf in case he has Bolt. I drop to 8, and my Ooze dies. I have an active Wasteland, so on my turn I drop Bob, then Wasteland my Bayou to pump Knight to 11/11 with his one card in hand. I go in for lethal. He has the Bolt :cool:

2-0

Round 3: Ed with Esper Delver

Game 1, I get Top online and crush his deck with basic lands, well timed Fetches, and Knights. He never gets board presence since I blow up all the things. He dies horribly.

Board in: +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Choke,
Board out: -1 EE (I knew he wasn't playing Souls), -2 Thoughtseize

We go back and forth int he early game, trading Swords to Plowshares for creatures. I land Sylvan and pump all that life into cards. He tries to stabilize, but I drop Goyf, Teeg, and and Tracker. He Perishes them away to get a 3-for-1, then drops Batterskull the next turn with 0 mana open, but two cards. I Sylvan into an Inquisition and draw it and a Swamp. I Inquistion to check for Force, and I take the pitch card, then Pulse the Batterskull. He hardcasts Force on my next Knight, but I drop Ooze. Ooze cleans up, but Snapcaster comes out to play while I have no mana up. I swords that. He paths my next Tarmogoyf. I draw into Garruk Relentless and poop Wolves into an empty board. He stalls, so I Life from the Loam to Wasteland him out except for 4 basic lands. He stalls while I have two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs and beat him down from almost 30 life. Sylvan easily won the game.

3-0

For my troubles, I get a Scrubland that I put up for prizes. Cool story :P

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

So no one even uses hymn anymore?

[sdematt]

I don't really need to right now, and with RUG and such being so popular in the format, I don't really want to necessarily be into double black on Turn 2 against infinite Wasteland effects.

If Combo really ups the ante, I would suggest running 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn and probably more discard in the board. Or, running 3 Hymn in the board as your combo disruption, in addition to Teeg, might not be an awful idea if your meta is that way.

Ian, as much as I love SFM right now, I'd suggest cutting it with all the combo floating around. I know it makes your opponent go in many different directions, I just think it might not be as good as it once was, but this again depends on your meta.

As it stands right now, I'm not running Hymn at all, but instead 6 pieces of pinpoint discard in the main. I may up it to 8, but I'd really have to analyze my options and see.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

List from SCG article:

Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Lands
2 Bayou
1 Gavony Township
1 Maze of Ith
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sylvan Library
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog

Cabal therapy is really good with all of the mana dorks and tokens, 3 jitte over some combination of equipment and mystics. Awesome Township for misers overrun.

[Mirrislegend]

List from SCG article:

Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Lands
2 Bayou
1 Gavony Township
1 Maze of Ith
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
Sideboard:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sylvan Library
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog

Cabal therapy is really good with all of the mana dorks and tokens, 3 jitte over some combination of equipment and mystics. Awesome Township for misers overrun.

In some ways, this intrigues me. Lingering Souls is amazing and Cabal Therapy is great if enabled properly. But I've learned the hard way that mana dudes don't really cut it in Legacy these days. With RUG always killing the mana guys for tempo advantage, Snapcaster providing control with 8x StP in their deck (so they'll always kill your mana guy to slow you down), and the deck running 8x 3 drops (and Jitte is approx a 4 drop), this seems dead to most of the meta.

@ Converstion about Hymn: I play it. I love it. I don't care what it hits in their hand, to be honest. It's just hilarious card advantage. I won't play black (aside from combo) without it.

[damionblackgear]

Ian, as much as I love SFM right now, I'd suggest cutting it with all the combo floating around. I know it makes your opponent go in many different directions, I just think it might not be as good as it once was, but this again depends on your meta.

The overall U.S. format is becoming more tempo/control based. That being said the discard package is definitely better in that styled meta. I don't really want to re-sleeve my deck for tomorrow (I'm REALLY lazy and these sleeves are new thanks to a buddy in Denver) so, I'll still have pretty much the same list as the videos.

[ryn ball_2]

@List from SCG article: interesting list esp. the lingering souls and cabal therapy interaction but i fear to play this list esp. when liliana and pulse are not around those cards are freaking awesome they are threats from behind.

@hymn: I played hymn in a dark horizon list. I love that card it is a 1 card (hymn) : 2 cards (2 cards randomly discard) ratio, freaking good if the opponent doesnt generate card advantage they will be left behind in development in the battlefield.

[damionblackgear]

Did not do well today. 1-2 Sleep (a very needed 5 hour nap).

Beat Maverick after giving up game 2, lost to UR (the only blue he saw was a single brainstorm), and lost to Miracles (Attacked to kill a bob/add counters to jitte when my opponent had to swing into it, then took away his ability to misplay by using the counters to kill things).

-edit-

I'm not sure how much I like Teeg anymore. There are still decks that it's good against but it just seems like decks don't care about it at all. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

I think Gaddock Teeg is fine against the decks you want it against, namely Stoneblade and Miracles. Other than that, I wouldn't play it maindeck and I'd limit it to one in the sideboard.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

my friend pm me that in scg finals it is junk vs omni-snt, is it true?

it is true!, now it is on game 3

[Crust]

Matt
Teeg against Stoneblade why?
I use it against Tendrils, Sneak, Dredge, Miracle and right now I even have two in my SB.

Ian
Do have any alternative for teeg? I've been thinking of Chains of Mefistofeles, good against Miracle, combo and more.

[damionblackgear]

Ian
Do have any alternative for teeg? I've been thinking of Chains of Mefistofeles, good against Miracle, combo and more.

I like Kyle's idea of Thalia.

[Mirrislegend]

Junk just won an SCG event:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49124

Teeg MD, only 4 discard spells, and Thalia in the SB are the most unique things that I see. Looks like a very balanced field, so I think these choices need to be scrutinized and deeply understood (ie: who would play Teeg MD in a balanced metagame?)

@ Teeg, Thalia discussion: Teeg is amazing. He gives Dredge, all non-creature based combo, and Miracles total fits. Thalia hurts RUG (which we already handle well), doesn't stop Dredge, and makes our discard cost too much mana to be effective. If Junk is built with a purposeful shift away from non-creature spells, then MD Thalia would be excellent. But as it is, Teeg is the best at the moment in my opinion

[ryn ball_2]

Junk just won an SCG event:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49124

Teeg MD, only 4 discard spells, and Thalia in the SB are the most unique things that I see. Looks like a very balanced field, so I think these choices need to be scrutinized and deeply understood (ie: who would play Teeg MD in a balanced metagame?)

Congrats Kyle Olson! nice games against omni-snt! :smile:

@teeg: if not a fan of him using mb or sb,for my preference i think thalia, some discards(MB) alongside extirpates may made a cut against miracles as well as combo. To be honest i didnt use him once so i'm sorry if i give insufficient info.

[damionblackgear]

Teeg MD, only 4 discard spells, and Thalia in the SB are the most unique things that I see. Looks like a very balanced field, so I think these choices need to be scrutinized and deeply understood (ie: who would play Teeg MD in a balanced metagame?)

Teeg maindeck was a maverick staple at one point. He's good vs Force, Batterskull, and Planeswalkers (to name a few) before you randomly find a traditional styled combo deck. I just find him doing less and less.

[sdematt]

Teeg against Stoneblade why?
I use it against Tendrils, Sneak, Dredge, Miracle and right now I even have two in my SB.

Jace, Batterskull, and Force for traditional Esperblade, but moreso for Jace, Terminus, and Entreat the Angels for Miracles.

@ Kyle Olson

Congrats for representing!

@ Ian

I think Teeg is doing less work generally in a wide variety of matchups, for sure, but he's doing good work in certain matchups.

@ Chains of Mephistopheles

The only thing I dislike about Chains is the anti-synergy with Sylvan Library, otherwise I think it's fine. Running both Sylvan and Chains is great against Miracles, since hitting either is golden, and both isn't so bad since one might get destroyed.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I think Teeg is doing less work generally in a wide variety of matchups, for sure, but he's doing good work in certain matchups.


I agree Teeg does work when he's needed but, does Teeg do enough for us to warrant a spot in the 75? I'm typically winning against Mircles with Chokes. Teeg just seems to be a very small speed bump now days (slowing but not winning). That's where I'm at in my head.

Crust - I'm sorry, for some reason I completely missed the Chains question. I'm not a fan of it as an overall. I think it's very strong against stopping card draw but there really isn't much real Draw anymore. Everything is filter and most of that is from the top of the deck. It does make cantrips worse but no more than Thalia (Pay extra vs filter from hand/top of deck). I wouldn't worry about the Library thing. It'll happen, just not that often.

I guess my honest opinion is that I find taxing effects to be more effective right now.

[Crust]

Matt
Yes of course, Teeg is good against Jace, that is a bigg reason to keep him in the 75.

Ian
Chains seems to be quite good, I have to test it som more, but I can also agree that taxing is good and in combination with Choke thats really good.

I tried a list without SFM and with Goyf and 2 more discard. This gave the deck stability, I think. Going to test this out upcoming weekend at a tournament. The list below is what I had in mind. Give me some response on it. Especially SB. Hate to loose to burn as u can see. But maybe it's too much. Graveyardhate is another thing, what is the minimum we need in SB do u think?

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 horizon canopy
1 bojuka bog

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 gaddock teeg
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 liliana of the veil

2 Sylvan Library

2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 mox diamond

SB:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Extirpate
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Spike Feeder
1 Infest
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Zealous Persecution

[Mirrislegend]

Can someone please explain how Thalia is worthwhile in this deck, even in the sideboard?Slowing down our discard and removal seems like a bad idea! Yes, it slows down your opponent, but the only time I can see this tradeoff being worthwhile is against Storm. And if you're playing against Storm, there are better options.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Kyle Olson's friend here. I pointed him to the thread and here are some of the answers (he doesn't have an account here):

"Teeg in the main was because decks like Sneak and Show were running around and it cuts off the card that can beat me (Sneak Attack). Knight of the Reliquary can usually handle Show and Tell (grabs Karakas before they can attack).

Obviously it's also very good against Miracles, Jace, and storm. Unlike Thalia, it lives through Dread of Night.

Yes, I did board it out a lot but having it as a 1-of felt very comfortable against the bad matchups with only 4 hand hate, since that never beats combo by itself, they eventually draw what they need. He won't necessarily beat combo or control by itself, sometimes a card like that is all you need to buy you enough time."

Mirrisguile- watch the final match of the tournament if you want a reason for playing Thalia.

I'll see if he wants to write up a tournament report. Maybe I can get him to make an account, too.

[damionblackgear]

I'll see if he wants to write up a tournament report. Maybe I can get him to make an account, too.

Tell him to just do it or I'll just start calling him when there are questions about his list.

[ryn ball_2]

@crust: Where is the sensei? it is good plus you have dark confidant w/c can have a blind reveal of a 3 cmc or 4 cmc, for me 2 SDT instead of 2 library if you have spare slot you can have 2 sdt+1 sylvan ratio.
Is miracle decks crushing your local meta? if yes retain the thrun if not and you suspect burn decks remove thrun add kitchen finks since you have access to GSZ and no access to batterskull
@sb: I think -1 teeg, +1 extirpate since you have 6 discards 3 thalia and 1 teeg since can be GSZ. Maybe a -1 feeder, +1 extirpate if you have MB kitchen finks.

@thalia discussion: i found her interesting today than teeg
1) against storm: tax cost for chrome mox, lotus petals, LED is very good knowing this decks run few lands compare to us and wastelandable. I imagined a set up where stripping his hands and drop thalia he/she struggles to recovered loss cards but also he/she must seek an answer for thalia to cast his/her spells
2) against show and tell based combo decks: since omniscience is a 'card' today tax effect of thalia is interesting counterthreats against them. If regular sneak attack deck i think this is a same explanation as storm decks, few lands, more spells and there show and tell cost 4 now to cast but before he can cast that he can rape his/her hand.
3) against control decks: In rug, thalia + choke is a dream come true, they cant daze or FOW w/ thalia and choke in play allowing us to kill their creatures freely. In miracle decks, this deck requires time to develop technically they play land go, brainstorm eot, play land go, play top go, w/c in this time frame we can disrupt them and jam w/c thalia w/c they struggles to develop as far as they want to.

thats only my observation :smile: much appreciated to hear more about this discussion :smile:

[Mirrislegend]

Is NO ONE getting screwed over by their own Thalias? If there really is no other side to the coin here, maybe we need to rebuild around her (for the creature based versions)

[Sughayyer]

I said before I was thinking of dropping the Dark Horizons (the tempo version) in favor of either a more control-based OR something mor like the midrange version I ran before. Tomorrow I'll discuss possibilities with my teammates, playtest in the tournament (if we can get to a working list) and post results. I had to make a quick break due to time issues, I'll get back to The Rock testing/development.

[Crust]

@ryn ball

@crust: Where is the sensei? it is good plus you have dark confidant w/c can have a blind reveal of a 3 cmc or 4 cmc, for me 2 SDT instead of 2 library if you have spare slot you can have 2 sdt+1 sylvan ratio.
Is miracle decks crushing your local meta? if yes retain the thrun if not and you suspect burn decks remove thrun add kitchen finks since you have access to GSZ and no access to batterskull
@sb: I think -1 teeg, +1 extirpate since you have 6 discards 3 thalia and 1 teeg since can be GSZ. Maybe a -1 feeder, +1 extirpate if you have MB kitchen finks.

Yeah I see your point with Bob and SDT. The two Sylvan work with Bob alot of times but not always of course. I've started to lika Sylvan because it isn't drawing mana from your lands. SDT is good but sometimes the topping slows you down. I had two tops from the beginning but I added 1 Goyf (some more power and agrression) and 1 Teeg. I´ll have to concider this further.
Thrun has been such a nice play lately, against Maverick, RUG, Zoo. The meta is quite diversfied so I don't really know what to expect.
You're probably right about the SB -1 Teeg +1 Extirpate, I have six discard main plus 2 Lili so the combo matchup is looking pretty good (in theory).
As you can see I choose not to put Choke in SB but, as I see it, the rest of the deck provides pretty good mathups against, blue control, don' you think?

[Treehouse]

Sweet, the rock got a new tool.
I was hoping for a decent push for "the rock" with the upcoming Ravnica cycle, but the gorgon planeswalker is so much more I could ever expected (she definitly adds more stones to the rock *ba dum tss*):
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/211 (near the end of the article, but I guess most of you already saw her on other preview sites :))

She costs 5 mana, sure, but cleans up the nonland-board, has a good evasion with the +1 ability and together with (maybe) Liliana of the Veil, more Discard, Pernicious Deed and other Board control options her ultimate adds a unique way to achieve victory.
I know it's all theory but she's worth some test runs - she's not an option in a aggro based list but surely will find a place in a mid-range/late game rock...

[sdematt]

I think at 5-mana it is a bit much, but it could just oust Garruk (I don't think so, but we'll see) as the one-of powerhouse card.

The -7 feels really interesting, but that would be turn 8 by the time you get there. It seems like Deeding the board, then using the ultimate seems fantastic. Maybe Nic Fit would totally want to play her.

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

I know I'm a bit behind on the curve, but wouldn't Sigarda, Host of Herons prevent annihilator from kicking from Emrakul, the Aeons Torn? Could she be a S/B card against Know and Tell decks?

I like the new Planeswalker, but agree with Matt that it's a bit of a late game card only. How many ppl are playing Deed m/d nowadays, and how many copies at that. She'll be worth a shot, but I only see here being used as often as Elsepth, which is rarely.

[Mirrislegend]

New planeswalker is not playable in Junk Rock. Even very control oriented builds or Nic Fit have much better options.

Sigarda indeed solves that problem, but doesn't save us from the deck. She can't block their threats and survive. Given that she doesn't actually help us beat that deck, she's totally not worthwhile

[damionblackgear]

I know I'm a bit behind on the curve, but wouldn't Sigarda, Host of Herons prevent annihilator from kicking from Emrakul, the Aeons Torn? Could she be a S/B card against Know and Tell decks?

Sigarda will negate the Annihilator effect. If you're planning on placing her in the 75 just to Show and Tell into play, use Oblivion Ring. It will take care of Emrakul, Griselbrand (Except draws), Sneak Attack (Unless they have the red in play), and Omniscience (Except instants).


Sweet, the rock got a new tool.
I was hoping for a decent push for "the rock" with the upcoming Ravnica cycle, but the gorgon planeswalker is so much more I could ever expected (she definitly adds more stones to the rock *ba dum tss*):
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/211 (near the end of the article, but I guess most of you already saw her on other preview sites :))

She's nice. I do have some issues with her beyond cost.

1) She can't force them to attack her. That pretty much negates her +1 unless they're just in the mood to kill a body.

2) Her Plus 1 can be regenerated from. So if they do feel like killing her, they have ways to keep the creature alive.

3) She's limited to combat damage. They can keep her in check any Tim (Lavamancer comes to mind).

4) The Tokens don't have haste and the ability can't be used at their end-step. So your opponent has time to react. You also can't deed the board and then make them to swing past your opponent's would be blockers. Although they'll need to deal with 3 creatures by their next turn. That's were this point takes to the only positive I see in the ability: If you're setting this up, you're probably stockpiling removal so blockers shouldn't count. On that note...

5) She makes 1/1s. Basically they're all one shots. They don't even have deathtouch to kill of the creatures they hit. So, swinging them into a creature field means you're just tossing them out there (Might as well be the Elspeth T Tokens. And don't let your opponent have an active Jitte.

6) The 1/1's don't have any form of evasion/protection. Being tokens, EE@0 will deal with them. Pulse will waste your planeswalker's "do nothing" turns as well. In fact, there's a huge list of played cards that deal with multiple tokens currently played in the format (other examples: Pyroclasm, Zealous Persecution, Goblin Sharpshooter, Pernicious Deed, Terminous, Fire, Arc Trail...). Even making them 2/2's would be better since they can't dodge any blocker. Short of Heirarch and Birds, the format kills them.

Overall, I like her look (for standard). I just wish she did something useful that didn't require my opponent to feel like being stupid or me needing to nuke the board randomly in order to make her really work. That's all beyond the cost.

P.s. She's so close to the planeswalker I wanted :(
2BG - Starting @3.
+1: Rampant Growth.
-2: Pulse, no echo. (got this one just -3 instead of -2)
-5: Deathcloud @4.

[Treehouse]

Hmm, I can only speak of my local meta here in Vienna and by the looks of it Vreska would fit very well into my list. Nearly everything is played here + some T2-tweaked lists by younger people. So I currently have to run pulse/vindicate and deed in the mainboard to keep track. :laugh:

As I already admitted, she won't be included into any Junk Rock that runs goyf, knight and bob - at least I can't imagine a 5 mana house in it. I think about a deck that runs hand disrupt, board removal, lilli, kitchen finks, sakura tribe elder/crop rotation... some kind of ramp/control stuff :eyebrow:.
Who knows? Might be the case that the idea ends up as a BUG control thing but we will see.

[Fizzeler]

If you are a heavier control build you can probably slip her in as a one of, I run 3 Walkers, and she is going to replace Garruk for me as Sorin and Liliana help me win or control the board

Vraska + Sorin seems quite potent, spawing Lifelinkers to protect her while pulsing the board

[Mirrislegend]

Are you kidding? No way she's better than flip Garruk or Elspeth in control-Rock.

Seriously, someone needs to lay down the law: Vraska is not competitive Legacy playable.

Are you are playing a bad deck? Then enjoy. Else, take your Vraska fandom and gtfo.

[KobeBryan]

If you are a heavier control build you can probably slip her in as a one of, I run 3 Walkers, and she is going to replace Garruk for me as Sorin and Liliana help me win or control the board

Vraska + Sorin seems quite potent, spawing Lifelinkers to protect her while pulsing the board

for 5 mana cost, you still wanna rely on another card to win?

for 5 mana, it better win me the game this turn or the next.

[Mirrislegend]

for 5 mana, it better win me the game this turn or the next.
That should say "for 4 mana". See Natural Order, Sneak Attack, even Elspeth. For 5, it should win the game, period.

[Treehouse]

Competitive legacy? Seriously.
I remember a recent SCG open event with a red-white goblin deck that splashed white mana only for 3 Thalia in the main deck and made it into Top 8. I still wonder how this deck made it so far, but the guy who performed the deck obviously trusted his build and had big success. The point is you never know how good or bad a card/deck actually performs unless you try it.
Legacy is a wide open format. It's not like people encounter RUG or UW decks all the time in local tournaments and if you do not consider this you might even lose against an Ally-Deck that is run by a person who plays his first legacy tournament. Magic can be a b*tch.
When Delver of Secrets was spoiled many players were arguing about it whether you could play it in legacy or not, same situation with Tarmogoyf back then. For some those cards were unplayable, other guys thought that those are fantastic/op/whatever... Rest is history. The reference is maybe completely out of place but I guess it's understandable what I mean.

Vreska could be a nice option in a heavy control based deck, as Fizzeler stated, together with Lilli as a one-of. It's at least worth giving it a try. What exactly does Elspeth or Flip-Garruk do better here?
In the best possible situation I drop Vreska and 4 turns later I win the game, also the pulse option has its benefits if needed.
If I drop Elspeth in the same situation she produces a token that dealt 12 damage after 4 turns and that doesn't guarantee a win; depending on what happened during the game. The same goes for a Flip-Garruk.
Batterskull also costs 5 cmc and doesn't guarantee you anything, even if you cheated it into the game via stoneforge mystic, but that doesn't make the card unplayable in legacy. I could bring up the argument that the card simply dies to Krosan Grip or other removal, but even then the card is still very good in legacy. Huh, I'm drifting away...

RTR isn't completely spoiled yet, so there is still space for something additional to come that makes people reconsider their thoughts about her.
If it turns out bad, oh my. There will be enough standard players around who want to collect her :smile:.

[Mirrislegend]

Goyf and Delver were uncertainties yet were heavily considered due to their low mana costs and high efficiency.

Elspeth can crush a creature deck, but her efficiency is fairly conditional, so maybe she's not the best example. How about Humility as another example of 4 cmc game winners.

About the 5 cost argument. You know that BSkull is competitive BECAUSE of stoneforge's activated ability, causing BSkull to effectively cost 2 mana.

Goblins + Thalia was brilliant brewing. Bu it wasn't someone testing an untested card. They were taking a card that is excellent and putting it in a deck where that card perfectly filled a major issue in the deck.

The ONLY deck that can consider this card is Nic Fit, due to their acceleration. But they'd rather play Lili or flip Garruk anyways.

Vraska, no matter which way you slice it, is not enough bang for your mana-buck to be Legacy competitive

[sdematt]

I'll probably play Vraska in Golgari in Standard/Modern, but I think for Legacy, she'd be pretty limited to Nic Fit. Vindicate on a stick is good, and so is pooping "lose the game" tokens. I agree where she fits the best is with Pernicious Deed. Keep her alive until you can -7, Deed the board, then hold removal for blockers.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

...you might even lose against an Ally-Deck that is run by a person who plays his first legacy tournament. Magic can be a b*tch.

haha. I was there for that. Hilarious!

Either way, regarding the new Planeswalker, "Time will tell".

Goyf got by almost everyone (It took standard players to show its power). Delver was not a secret in any sense of the word secret. For any card/strategy, there will be skeptics. Many of us are in this case. So, if you're not with us, prove us wrong. Once it's out, you've got all the time you want.

Next topic?

[Fizzeler]

haha. I was there for that. Hilarious!

Either way, regarding the new Planeswalker, "Time will tell".

Goyf got by almost everyone (It took standard players to show its power). Delver was not a secret in any sense of the word secret. For any card/strategy, there will be skeptics. Many of us are in this case. So, if you're not with us, prove us wrong. Once it's out, you've got all the time you want.

Next topic?

Well put

Is Dryad Militant good enough for Creature and Control builds? Combined with Liliana it seems pretty good, but it seems I will be torn between turn 1 Militant, Inquisition, or turn 1 Inquisition, Therapy for my own build

Thoughts?

[Treehouse]

haha. I was there for that. Hilarious!
Either way, regarding the new Planeswalker, "Time will tell".
Goyf got by almost everyone (It took standard players to show its power). Delver was not a secret in any sense of the word secret. For any card/strategy, there will be skeptics. Many of us are in this case. So, if you're not with us, prove us wrong. Once it's out, you've got all the time you want.

Well, it's not about proving someone wrong or not :smile:. I just wanted to bring up a thought on a card that looks really strong, to me, on first sight. Obviously something went completely wrong with the whole thing - but it could also be due to the fact that english isn't my mother language.


Well put

Is Dryad Militant good enough for Creature and Control builds? Combined with Liliana it seems pretty good, but it seems I will be torn between turn 1 Militant, Inquisition, or turn 1 Inquisition, Therapy for my own build

Thoughts?

She has potential to be a main deck card within Maverick. As for Rock builts with green sun zenith she could have potential as a sideboard card. It's a walking leyline that can be searched with zenith more or less, so why not? On the other hand the dryad is easier to handle (massacre, swords, bolt, etc.). So she needs protection to max out her value and Maverick does it quite well with Mother of Runes...
Overall it's a train against Dredge but I'm not sure if she is good or flexible enough against other builts. So for now I would choose Tormods Crypt or Leyline of the Void over her, within a Rock deck..

[damionblackgear]

Well, it's not about proving someone wrong or not :smile:. I just wanted to bring up a thought on a card that looks really strong, to me, on first sight. Obviously something went completely wrong with the whole thing - but it could also be due to the fact that english isn't my mother language.

Sorry, I also was only intending the laughing part for you. I was at the event where the Ally deck was played on camera crushing for the pilots first legacy event. It was awesome. The rest was for everyone going on and on about different reasons that the card was good or not. I just used your examples because they were good ones.

[ryn ball_2]

New tool (i guess) for rock and rock variant

Abrupt Decay--BG

Instant

Cant be countered by spells or abilities

Destroy target nonland permanent with cmc of 3 or less.

My thoughts about this card (it is freaking good), there are many 3 cmc or less floating in this format w/c is highly relevant and threatening when they enter the field like sofaf, jitte, KOTR, liliana, counterbalance although it cant kill jace, elspeth and creatures of reanimators we can handle those things in our turn (pulse/vindicate maybe?). But the exception of this card is being instant w/c for myself is freaking good.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'm not denying the strengths of this card, however for my build, anyway, it will take the SB slot I have typically given to extra removal (Path to Exile/Go for the Throat/etc.). The reason I say this is there is simply I'm unsure as to what I would substitute it in for; StP/Deed/Pulse/Liliana all fulfill specific rolls, none of which are readily replaced by the new card.
The card has obvious utility (the fact alone that its uncounterable AND instant speed makes me foam at the mouth) however I'm unsure as to if many of our builds need it MD. That having been said, I will joyfully begin playtesting it and am quite confident that the card will skyrocket in price, so I intend to preorder some before said spike.

Forlorn Egoist

[ryn ball_2]

I'm not denying the strengths of this card, however for my build, anyway, it will take the SB slot I have typically given to extra removal (Path to Exile/Go for the Throat/etc.). The reason I say this is there is simply I'm unsure as to what I would substitute it in for; StP/Deed/Pulse/Liliana all fulfill specific rolls, none of which are readily replaced by the new card.
The card has obvious utility (the fact alone that its uncounterable AND instant speed makes me foam at the mouth) however I'm unsure as to if many of our builds need it MD. That having been said, I will joyfully begin playtesting it and am quite confident that the card will skyrocket in price, so I intend to preorder some before said spike.

Forlorn Egoist

Good point there sir, and yes i realize it also after posting the card what cards will be taken out to consider this new card in MD, i'm thinking of 2-2 split (2 pulse, 2 abrupt)
still playtesting must be considered :smile:
Same here hope to grab a copy as soon as price doesnt skyrocket.

[sdematt]

Abrupt Decay seems pretty darn good. The not-countering clause means it will kill Counterbalance, Delver, etc. and they can't do anything about it. Sometimes Pulse is great for different purposes, but this is also freaking excellent.

It can't replace Pulse because you can't hit Jace, but 2/2 split seems interesting.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Abrupt Decay seems pretty darn good. The not-countering clause means it will kill Counterbalance, Delver, etc. and they can't do anything about it. Sometimes Pulse is great for different purposes, but this is also freaking excellent.

It can't replace Pulse because you can't hit Jace, but 2/2 split seems interesting.

-Matt

yea...completely different purpose. but its a great great card.

[lavafrogg]

Abrupt Decay might even replace swords to plowshares in lists that want to stay GB for a more solid mana base. It destroys all creatures that see play in legacy baring some goblins, reanimator targets, sneak targets and the fact that it doubles as counterbalance/jitte/random destruction is a real bonus.

p.s. it really shits on all of RUG's creatures except the goose.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135278&d=1346743269

Lotleth Troll... why the fuck does it say creature card. GBW loam was almost a really good deck.

Yeah.. I'm just going to keep editing with my complaints on the near playability of new cards that would have been able to fit n this deck.... The GB planeswalker would have been uber playable at 2BG with two forms of protection and a nifty way to win the game she also wrecks other planeswalkers in a head to head fight.

[KobeBryan]

Abrupt Decay might even replace swords to plowshares in lists that want to stay GB for a more solid mana base. It destroys all creatures that see play in legacy baring some goblins, reanimator targets, sneak targets and the fact that it doubles as counterbalance/jitte/random destruction is a real bonus.

p.s. it really shits on all of RUG's creatures except the goose.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135278&d=1346743269

Lotleth Troll... why the fuck does it say creature card. GBW loam was almost a really good deck.

Yeah.. I'm just going to keep editing with my complaints on the near playability of new cards that would have been able to fit n this deck.... The GB planeswalker would have been uber playable at 2BG with two forms of protection and a nifty way to win the game she also wrecks other planeswalkers in a head to head fight.

impossible to replace swords to plowshares. a 1 mana removal is just too good. stops turn 1 lackeys, moms, blah.

[ceustice]

Abrupt Decay might even replace swords to plowshares in lists that want to stay GB for a more solid mana base. It destroys all creatures that see play in legacy baring some goblins, reanimator targets, sneak targets and the fact that it doubles as counterbalance/jitte/random destruction is a real bonus.

p.s. it really shits on all of RUG's creatures except the goose.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135278&d=1346743269

Lotleth Troll... why the fuck does it say creature card. GBW loam was almost a really good deck.

Yeah.. I'm just going to keep editing with my complaints on the near playability of new cards that would have been able to fit n this deck.... The GB planeswalker would have been uber playable at 2BG with two forms of protection and a nifty way to win the game she also wrecks other planeswalkers in a head to head fight.

An idea I was thinking about was discarding Dryad Arbors and loaming them back.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm having a bitch of a time finding Mox Diamonds, so I can't weigh in with legit results (My losses these days come from being a turn too slow via lack of Mox). I'd really like to NOT have to crack my 3 sealed FTV: Relics to get Moxen. Especially cuz those are foil and the rest of the deck isn't.

[sdematt]

I can probably find some for you if you have the cash.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

seeded at top 2 this saturday legacy alongside w/ magic celebration in our local
top 1: miracle
top 2: rock
top 3: manaless dredge

R1 vs dredge: 2-0

R2 vs miracle: 1-1-1 (never say never)
G1: 4 hymn to tourachs in successive turns seem's i have a god hand there, he never recovered
G2: he has a good time in setting things up while i dont have much disruptions, so annoying that he has 1 2 cmc card and 1 3 cmc card on top of his library he figured it out that i curved in 1-2-3 cmc cards.
G3: time out

R3 vs manaless dredge: 1-1-1

R4 vs white stax: 2-0 (patience is a virtue)
G1: the stax player throws me out using his crucible+smokestacks leaving me w/ no permanents but patience is a virtue a re-assembled my field in a slow fashion but w/ cutting edge cards in my hand (pulse and deed) and the moment i went up to 3 mana deeds came and boomed on next turn (thanks i top deck a land, X=4 deed). Liliana came in cleaning his hand while i got beats from 7/8 goyf and bob
G2: got kotr beats w/ very big P/T thanks to his armageddon but still i have cutting edge cards in my hand

2-0-2

the list

4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymn, 2 liliana
3 pulse, 2 deed, 4 stp
3 sdt, 3 mox d
3 bayou, 3 scrubland
1 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
4 verdant, 4 marsh
3 wasteland
1 karakas, 1 maze of ith, 1 bog

//SB
1 EE, 1 deed, 1 e. plague
1 choke, 1 needle, 1 o-ring
1 cage, 1 tormod's
1 warmth
2 enlightened tutor
2 zealous persecution
2 extirpate

Future plans: deed doesnt brings me down when i need it, but counterbalance is really annoying i want to insert abrupt decay but i cant give up the slot of deed w/c make me think of 2 pulse, 2 decay, 2 deed, 4 stp from my original idea of 3 pulse, 2 decay (deed slot), 4 stp. Any thoughts?

[sdematt]

If I were you, I'd play 3 Pulse, 2 Decay, and 4 STP. At that point, you're blowing up everything. Plus, in the board, you could run 1-2 Deed.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

If I were you, I'd play 3 Pulse, 2 Decay, and 4 STP. At that point, you're blowing up everything. Plus, in the board, you could run 1-2 Deed.

-Matt

I like your idea sdematt, and deeds are coming from side, in theory i think i can handle aggro decks due to 9 spot removals right? :smile:. Hope to grab immediately a copy of decay! so excited :laugh:

[namrufmot]

Why does no one SB Dueling Grounds anymore?

[ryn ball_2]

Why does no one SB Dueling Grounds anymore?

If you ask me, my preference is to eliminate all the aggro threats in the board (mass removal), dueling grounds is good but if that grounds break they can unleash massive scale of attack. Plus people here uses different variant of rock (w/ sfm or gsz that can handle aggro threats) w/c i assume they dont need the dueling grounds anymore. For my list i assume that i can handle aggressive opponent due to i have many spot/mass removals.

[hungryboi]

I was wondering what people's solution was to Show and Tell/ Omni? It's been really tough getting through all their counter with our discard. Then they go off with 2 lands with SNT, Omni, Emrakul. What has been your most viable tool against them pre/post board?

[ForlornEgoist]

@hungryboi: Well, it really depends on what I'm expecting when entering into a meta. In a majority of instances I don't experience great waves of SA/S&T so I don't bother building a SB to specifically answer it. That having been said, I'll usually just rely on discard with SB Leyline of Sanctity/Extirpate to answer Intuition. Not only this, Karakas should be in your 75 specifically to answer cheated creatures like Emrakul or Griselbrand.

Otherwise if you were to devote SB slots to said strategies, a few options might be:

Krosan Grip
Oblivion Ring
Tariff
Diabolic Edict
Ensnaring Bridge
Seal of Doom
Sudden Spoiling

These are just a few options. I know theres more efficient ways to answer S&T-based strategies however I don't encounter the MU in my metas enough that I've had to dedicate real time to playtesting answers. I'm sure someone else on here can assist.

One thing to consider is running an ETutor SB. From what I've been told by sdematt they can be quite effective.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

I think if you're expecting a ton of Omniscience, a mix of Discard, Extirpate, and Krosan Grip will deal their fate, as will Gaddock Teeg and the like. Karakas helps bounce Griselbrand/Emrakul when you need to.

It's not the greatest matchup, but you can attempt to fight through it. Wasteland aggressively, and back it up with threats to seal the game.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I've had good experiences with Sylvan Library, and have shared my support of it.

HOWEVER, I recently realized how great Sensei's Divining Top is for us. We have the mana to spare, to spin the Top often, thanks to Mox. But what really sold me was the realization that we shuffle a fairly large amount. Recently, I topped, then activated Knight for a fetch. Being able to spin before cracking that fetch has been AMAZING for me.

I have to heavily reccomend Top over Sylvan Library, to anyone still using Library.

[mini1337s]

I've had good experiences with Sylvan Library, and have shared my support of it.

HOWEVER, I recently realized how great Sensei's Divining Top is for us. We have the mana to spare, to spin the Top often, thanks to Mox. But what really sold me was the realization that we shuffle a fairly large amount. Recently, I topped, then activated Knight for a fetch. Being able to spin before cracking that fetch has been AMAZING for me.

I have to heavily reccomend Top over Sylvan Library, to anyone still using Library.
Library does something that Top doesn't, Draw 3. I think it really depends on the type of game you want to play, but both have their uses.

[ForlornEgoist]

I think a good majority of us understand the strengths of filtering via Top, particularly considering that many of our builds sport 3-4 KotR, 2-3 GSZ, + 6-8 fetch. That having been said, Library's has its own unique strengths. Not having to rely on that 1 mana to filter your draw at Upkeep can be an amazing benefit therein itself considering how high we curve out at (even with BoP/Mox assistance). There are also many games, such as the control MU, where I am more than content to pay an extra 4 life for that additional card.

As a general rule of thumb I suggest players stick to Top if the choice is between the two, however I think running 2 Top/1 Library is a completely acceptable compromise.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

I wouldn't go back from running a 2/2 split ever again, as long as the meta stays relative to what it is now.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

@omni-snt/sneak show deck: depending on the build, in my list i ran 8-10 disruptions 4 seize+4 hymn+2 liliana preboard and i have a good game against sneak shows. On post board/sb i ran enlightened tutor package with o-ring on it and 2 extirpates which is really good against sneak show.
Atm i never encounter omni-snt type in our meta due to the fact that only few people play sneak show (luckily i encountered one of them in real tourney to just the wits of my pre/post board) but i believe omni-snt doesnt run misdirection (unlike in sneak show) w/c our disruption is highly probable to get through w/c i believe they run 8 counterspells (FOW and daze unlike in sneak show FOW, daze, spell pierce, misdirection) w/c is i think it is a good match up alongside o-ring, extirpate. Also i agree w/ the choice of krosan gripping a ominiscience to seal their fate.

@sylvan, sdt: i personally like running 3 sdt w/ 0 library in my list cuz i have MB deeds 2x w/c maybe my library got blown out, 3 sdt is good w/ liliana due to the fact we only need 1 top on the field and i usually throw the other tops for liliana +1. Just only my preference over library, i also agree a 2 sdt: 1 library ratio w/c is really good also.

[Claymore]

The recent Rock deck that won SCG Minneapolis beat Omniscience Tell in the finals, so this deck list and match write up may have some good insight for you. Reposted from a few pages ago

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_kyle_olson_vs_troy_thom.html

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49124

[Mirrislegend]

With Stoneforge winning for 2 weeks running, I'm worried that the hate will start coming out of the woodworks.

Since Show and Tell is so relevant these days and now Stoneforge may be worth avoiding, I'm considering a major shift to MD Thalia. I'll post list later today; I'm itching for some input.

[sdematt]

What I think I'll be running post-R2R:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library

--BOARD--

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan Grip/Extirpate/Open

So the changes made from the previous iterations of the deck are that I removed the 1-of Engineered Explosives/Duress slot, as well as the 1-of Maindeck Life from the Loam. The reasoning behind this is Loam was great, but was the weakest slot in the deck. Loam does work, but it's a much more reactive card, and I've been drawing it enough where I had enough land so that it wasn't as great as it seemed. I still want one in the 75, but I think in the main, I do not require it now.

These two slots were replaced by Abrupt Decay. I'm going to be testing it tonight, but the slot seems like a winner in my books. It cannot replace Pulse, that is for sure. You need Pulse to kill Jace, tokens, Batterskull, etc. The question is, do I want to go down 1 Pulse so I have less ways to kill Jace and larger permanents, but more ways to kill things better than I already kill well? The answer is most likely no, I don't want to replace Pulse, just have a better kill spell against relevant things. No longer (hopefully) will flipped Delvers live past turn 2, nor will I have to Waste a Pulse on a Jitte/Library. It's an answer to a Turn 2 SFM as well as a Sword they may fetch.

Overall, it's a really great complement to our arsenal of removal, but it's not a replacement for what Pulse is there to do: kill Jace. If it was there to do anything else, it might as well be Vindicate for the flexibility, but I like having the sweep advantage.

I'll test tonight and see how it goes. I suspect it will be a neat addition.

The board looks a little screwed up, but Choke, Gaddock Teeg, and Loam are for the control matchups; Timely and Choke take care of our Tempo blue decks with Burn; Deed answers Tribal and Maverick; Virtue's Ruin goes for Death and Taxes as well as Maverick; The Surgical/Extirpate slots are against Combo, Reanimator, and Dredge; Duress fights Combo; and I'm thinking the last slot for Krosan Grip does double duty on Batterskull, MUD, and to kill Omniscience. I know a 1-of shouldn't be relied on, but it was better than the 3rd Abrupt Decay or something like that. This is definitely the open slot.

With all the spells, I definitely do not want to be into Thalia right now, at least for this build. If my curve as a but lower, perhaps the Grip and Duress slots would be Thalias, or better yet, meta-depending, the Timely and Grip become Thalia.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Thalia List:

4 Confidant
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
4 KotR
1 Thrun (?)

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 SDT
2 GSZ
3 Mox Diamond

23 Land

This list no longer fears Show and X and, thanks to a full set of Goyfs, it doesn't lose it's game against fair decks (which Stoneforge had always carried).

[KobeBryan]

Thalia List:

4 Confidant
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
4 KotR
1 Thrun (?)

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 SDT
2 GSZ
3 Mox Diamond

23 Land

This list no longer fears Show and X and, thanks to a full set of Goyfs, it doesn't lose it's game against fair decks (which Stoneforge had always carried).

why are you not scared of show and tell simply by running goyfs?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

why are you not scared of show and tell simply by running goyfs?



This list no longer fears Show and X


and,


thanks to a full set of Goyfs, it doesn't lose it's game against fair decks (which Stoneforge had always carried).



Presumably, it's the combination of Teeg, Thalia, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition that protect the deck from Show and Tell decks. What the Goyfs do is what they always do.

[Whippoorwill]

I played Damion's 8/31/12 version (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajlcb05L1-_idFNmS0l1bW5QSl83NnpyMXdPaVp6NXc#gid=38) of the deck with some sideboard changes this past weekend as it was the most recent list I could find (Was trying to find Matt's list for comparison/ideas).

Sideboard:
1x Path to Exile
1x Dismember
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Thalia
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements

Round 1 vs Dave with B/G/W Rock
He's a good friend so I know his deck fairly well. I had told him it would be an interesting night due to what I expected to see tonight (I also told him what I was playing).

Game 1: I basically had more Bobs than he had removal and he died slowly. Neither of us ever drew a Knight.

Game 2: More of the same but Zealous Persecution & Liliana helped keep his side of the board under control. Liliana's Fact or Fiction saw the following piles: His Lands or his non-lands which consisted of a Sword, CoP: Green and another Library I think. He took the non-lands since the CoP was holding back my Knights. I was able to push through from there.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs Chris with Maverick
Game 1: This was a LONG drawn out game that laster for about 40 minutes or so as we both had answers for each other. He took it down though thanks to Garruk the Veil Cursed. The Deathtouch Wolves held back my huge Knights and slowly poked me to death before I could draw a Pulse. The maindeck Bog proved to be excellent prior to that since it neutered his Knight.

Game 2: I basically won this in quick fashion thanks to a turn 1 Ulvenwald Tracker since it kept him from playing his Hierarch.

Game 3: Can't remember off hand but I think the CA from Bob is what helped me get there. Worth noting is that we went past time in round but it was never announced so we kept playing. I don't think either of us wanted to end in a draw. Had turns been called I may still have won or it would have been close.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs Elijah with WTF Maverick (?) with Vial
He normally plays G/W/b but now he has Blue in it as well....

Game 1: More Bob card advantage gets me there. For the 2nd time tonight I see 2x Mox when I use Top. Still no idea what the Blue is there for.

Game 2: I don't think I was ever really in this one and he takes it down fast. I think this is the game where Meddling Mage made an appearance. Neat trick with Vial but I don't think it's worth the splash.

Game 3: He keeps a land light hand and eventually gets a Knight out. I wasteland his dual on my turn and on his turn he uses his Knight to grab a Wasteland to kill my Dual which put him to either 1 or 2 lands at the time (can't remember). I had plenty of mana at this point so I didn't really understand the play. His Knight ended up dead shortly after. Later on he gets out Thalia which came to bite him in the ass later on as it stopped him from playing one of his spells. At one point he had a Mother of Runes, Tidehollow Sculler (Pulse under it) and some other creature. I attacked to make him use Mom then ended up killing Sculler then Mom with the Pulse. Also found out the Blue was for Stifle (again, I don't think it was worth it).

I found out later that there was also Snapcaster in the deck. Chris and I both independantly asked/suggest if Geist of St. Traft was in there since it was an obvious reason for the blue splash.

3-0; 6-2

At this point I'm the only undefeated but we have to go 4 rounds. No pressure for me to win or anything...

Round 4 vs. Donny with Modern Living End
He said he decided to play it tonight due to the lack of blue decks here tonight (there are usually many more). We knew what each other was playing as we sat at the same table in the previous round. I've seen him play the deck before so I also knew what to expect.

Game 1: I get a Knight out but he casts Living End before it becomes active. Bob smacking me in the face with a Batterskull didn't help either.

Game 2: Thalia + Wasteland lock him out of the game long enough to pull out the win. Worth noting is that he Shriekmaw'd my Knight which promptly ate an Extraction after it hit the graveyard.

Game 3: It all comes down to this. I get a turn 1 Library then use Wastelands to kill his non-basics to slow him down. His gd Shriekmaw kills my Knight yet again, and I Extract it once again. He eventually Living Ends with an Architect and 2 Street Wraiths in his graveyard to my Knight. At his eot I Path the Architect, then on my turn I Pulse the Wraiths. From there I have it locked as he only has Living End for my Knight which was active to fetch Bog. At one point in the match I was kicking myself for not boarding out the Pulses, but they ended up saving my ass.

4-0; 8-3 putting me in 1st overall.

The deck was quite fun to play and the only thing I didn't really like was when I would see Mox Diamonds in multiples (especially when using Top). If anything I would cut 1 of them for something else.

Thanks again to Damion for the list.

[sdematt]

You can try my list next time :wink:

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Thanks again to Damion for the list.

Anytime.

Congrats on the wins. Multiple diamonds can be annoying (and really surprising how often that's what you see from top/library). What're you thinking of changing the one (or multiples) into?

[sdematt]

I ran this on Tuesday:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library

--BOARD--

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 can't remember

I didn't get to play against Delver like i wanted to, but I did end up playing against Maverick and an interesting version of Miracles.

1) Maverick: Decay was a house. The only times it was really awkward was when they had Mother of Runes up, and I didn't have two different colours of removal to muck them. Boo.

It mucked a Jitte, Thalia, Knight, Teeg, etc. It was REALLY handy. Taking out a Sylvan EOT then untapping into your play = very nice. It made the matchup better by having removal flexibility.

2) Miracle Blade: My friend played an interesting Blade variant with Terminus, Entreat, Counterbalance + Top, but no Snapcasters (2 Clique, 3 SFM instead). Suffice to say, many of the games we play, I didn't draw well. I was having trouble dealing with Counterbalance due to the number of three drops in the deck (even having 3 was super relevant). However, Decay was very good here, and ended up blowing up a Counterbalance, Shackles, and something else relevant later on.

However, the matchup isn't 100% where I want it. I do need to test it more since I was just having some clumping issues, but I really want to beat them up more. Terminus, Counterbalance, Jace, and Supreme Verdict make gaining board presence hard. Now, this is also to say in the sideboard games I never drew Tarmogoyfs, sideboard hate, or Dark Confidants...

---

Garruk was excellent and was nice in keeping up with Maverick. I actually love this guy. Tracker just made it over the top, of course.

I almost feel like I want one more Abrupt decay, and I think it would take a Pulse slot. I had a ton of stuff at 3 Counterbalanced, and I would just like to have uncounterable Counterbalance removal spell, and then just have 2 random Pulses in case things go sideways. Maybe not, but we'll see.

I will want to test a bit more against RUG, Omni-tell, and Miracles with Snapcaster, just to get the hang of it again.

-Matt

[Khamul]

Messing around with Junk lately - and I definitely like it :tongue:

My list is similar to the one that got 1st at Minneapolis, but I'm constantly changing some minor things.

Right now it's like:

Creatures (15):
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instants (4):
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries (11):
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts (6):
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Enchantments (1):
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard (15):
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke


I've only recently taken out the Hymns, opting for 6 Point-Discard Spells instead. It's not that Hymn is a bad card... Indeed, it's great... It's just that I sometimes have problems with getting Double Black, and that I sometimes wished that I could choose something to rip off my opponent's hand. I've lost as many games through a bad-hitting Hymn as I won them with good-hitting Hymns.
A 2-1 Split of Mox Diamond and Birds, because I hate to topdeck Diamonds, and Bird can be Zenithed for Mana fixing.
A 2-1 Split of Top and Library, because Library doesn't bind the Mana, and can sometimes become a Dark Confidant that can't attack or block - but still great.
Thalia in the Side to combat all those Control and Combo Decks.
Revoker instead of Needle because I looked at the MU's where I wanted to have Needles in - they were the same ones where I wanted Thalia. So, I thought to myself: "Why not bringing a Body with it? In the worst case, it will eat a removal, thus saving my other creatures. And Needles will most likely cost 2 as well."
Explosives instead of Deed because I looked at the MU's where I wanted to have sweepers in - they are most fast Aggro Decks. And with Explosives being 1 turn faster, and Explosives hurting for 0 when being revealed with Bob, my choice fell to Explosives.

After RtR comes out, I will definitely put in Abrupt Decay - over the 3rd Zenith, and banishing Teeg to the SB, where it will replace one of the Explosives.

Now, what are your opinions on this list?
Are the Hymns too good to give them up, and should I put them back in?
And, well, I hope that some of my unusual choices in cards or numbers don't turn out bad. I had (and still have) good experiences with them.

[ryn ball_2]

@Whippoorwill: congrats w/ your finish! :smile:

@sdematt: nice game analysis w/ the inclusion of abrupt decay, and i'm itching to have a real copy to be sleeve-in in my deck. Btw in your list 3 pulse: 2 decay works well? cuz i'm planning this ratio too, but back in my mind i want to run 3 decay 3 pulse (greedy much i think :wink:) but same issues w/ counterbalance they only set things up 3 cmc and 2 cmc on their top of library w/c is really annoying in my list. We love to hear more of decay matches against different deck from you :smile:

this is my future list w/ decay
4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymn, 2 liliana
4 stp
3 decay, 2 pulse
3 SDT, 3 mox d
23 lands

From the original list i ran: 3 pulse, 2 deed i replace 2 deed by 2 pulse and make 3 decay and move 2 deed to sideboard.

*if i'll go for 3 decay, 3 pulse i think i will remove 1 sdt so that 2 sdt, 3 mox d, 3 decay, 3 pulse. Still i dont have any idea what to remove cuz most cards in my list are OK in that number :frown:

[Kich867]

I've notice some lists of Rock no longer run Mox Diamond, is there a reason for this besides personal preference? Is the acceleration not really that necessary anymore?

[KobeBryan]

I've notice some lists of Rock no longer run Mox Diamond, is there a reason for this besides personal preference? Is the acceleration not really that necessary anymore?

lots of dead cards.

3 mox diamonds, with 5-6 1 mana discard.

thats about 10 cards you don't want late game.

[AggroSteve]

i would allmost run the same list as you ryn ball_2 with the only difference that i would use 2 decay and 3 pulse as soon as i can get them, and maybe 1 or 2 decays in the sideboard depending on the meta

i would be interested in your sideboard though..... and has someone some suggestions for a unknown meta for a "dark horizon" sideboard

right now my sideboard looks like this

2 deed
2 infest
2 choke
1 gaddock teeg
3 extirpate
2 discard (depending on meta duress/inquisition/verdict against burn)
1 darkblast
2 path to exile

i would love to fit in 1 or 2 copys of timely reinforcements, but do not know what to cut

with my playstyle and the deck i probably got the most problems against aggro decks,
against controll-decks i often do not know exactly what would be best to be sided out

i would appreciate any suggestions :P

[ryn ball_2]

@mox diamond discussion: i normally ran mox diamond atmost 3 copies whether i use dark horizon-like list or damion's list i love to ran them cuz
1) i can ramp onto turn 1 bob, hymn, sfm(if i ran damion's list)
2) it corrects my manabase we are running 3 colored deck so that i can virtually cast what spells will i drew assuming i have tons of green-splash spells while i have wasteland in my hand and mox diamond, that diamond will correct my manabase
3) it gave me proof against wasteland, magus of the blood, bloodmoon-effects, rishadan ports, armageddon, not mentioning the pridemage of maverick it that was the case a different story how i will run my manabase.
4) it also cheats RUG due they have wasteland and post board submerge i normally throw my forest land for mox d, daze-proof :smile:

@aggrosteve: maybe 3 pulse and 2 decay is atm good, still jace is floating in this current meta (miracles, uw blades) so that we have 3 bullets to kill it rather 2 bullets hmmm :wink:

@your sb: it is fine :smile:

@SB of dark horizons: for unknown meta i will ran this list, i'm a fan of running e-tutor sb
1 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
2 engineered plague
1 choke
1 oblivion ring
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 cage
1 warmth
2 enlightened tutor
2 extirpate
1 canonist

but atm i personally run -1 plague, -1 canonist, +2 zealous persecution, combo decks in our local meta are not in big numbers usually 1 out of 10 players play combo deck more of control and aggro decks.

[Mirrislegend]

I bombed my local Legacy last night. Every single loss was could have been won by Mox Diamond! Mine are coming in the mail (got a set at 25 a piece :cool:)

[sdematt]

Really? Every single time? Prove it :tongue:

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Well, it was only a couple of rounds. Stoneforge/miracles control gained dominance of the board a turn before I pushed through his counterspells and answers (he got game 2 by drawing both of the 2 Snapcasters that he plays... I hate that card). Burn got it twice by a margin of one turn. Last week, RUG got G1 by a one turn margin. Show and Tell based decks always go off before I can get all my disruption online. I'm itching for Mox Diamond!

Can I get some help with my SB? It's starting to feel suboptimal:

2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke

EE is gonna stay at 3, because it beats Mav and Merfolk. And I swear by Surgical Extraction, at least 1 Teeg in the SB (2 GSZ main), and at least 1x Kitchen Finks in the SB. Other than that, I suppose the rest is changeable. I suppose Edicts can be cut, as Omni-Tell is replacing Sneak and Show. I'm not sure I can justify Teeg MD, as some people have been doing. I know some people play 2 Chokes, but I've never regretted hitting more than 1 in a game.

Input please!

[ryn ball_2]

@mirri: your sb seem's interesting but you said it been so suboptimal this past days or weeks? since omni-tell are rampant nowadays i think for your list -2 diabolic edict, -1 gaddock teeg, +3 oblivion ring (still this ring works well against normal sneak and show) or +3 krosan grip (just an added value against miracles) therefore your sb will looks like
3 oblivion ring/3 krosan grip
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke

Do you like to use extirpates??? i personally like it against miracles i will extirpates their removals like stp, terminus no chance to be countered unless the counterbalance blink flip a 1 cmc, and 90% gaddock teeg will be safe all day long assuming it is not countered.

[Mirrislegend]

@mirri: your sb seem's interesting but you said it been so suboptimal this past days or weeks? since omni-tell are rampant nowadays i think for your list -2 diabolic edict, -1 gaddock teeg, +3 oblivion ring (still this ring works well against normal sneak and show) or +3 krosan grip (just an added value against miracles) therefore your sb will looks like
3 oblivion ring/3 krosan grip
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke

Do you like to use extirpates??? i personally like it against miracles i will extirpates their removals like stp, terminus no chance for snapcaster GY-picking and 90% gaddock teeg will be safe all day long assuming it is not countered.

I'd play Extirpate if I had it! O-ring is a decent idea vs the Show and Tell decks, but should it just be Thalia? Also, doesn't Teeg knock the socks of Show and Tell decks? Stops Sneak Attack and Petals of Insight

[ryn ball_2]

@mirri: interesting choice for thalia, your correct thalia hinders the "alternate cost of the spell via omni" but i believe omni-tell runs grapeshot/pyroclasm in the wish board w/c eventually can kill our thalia, just my observation :smile:, But back in my head she is really interesting add on our sb hmmm maybe 2 o-ring/1 thalia split do burn decks hurts your meta? if not i think 2 o-ring, 2 thalia, -1 finks, what do you think?

[Mirrislegend]

@mirri: interesting choice for thalia, your correct thalia hinders the "alternate cost of the spell via omni" but i believe omni-tell runs grapeshot/pyroclasm in the wish board w/c eventually can kill our thalia, just my observation :smile:, But back in my head she is really interesting add on our sb hmmm maybe 2 o-ring/1 thalia split do burn decks hurts your meta? if not i think 2 o-ring, 2 thalia, -1 finks, what do you think?

Finks destroys RUG, in addition to making life very difficult for Burn and U/R Delver. I can't cut it. I think maybe cutting 2 Diabolic for 2 Thalia works. Improves Show and X MUs while also helping vs combo decks

[ryn ball_2]

@mirri: i think thats fine also edict for thalia, we love to hear some reports from you w/ your new sb conguration :smile: and your mox diamonds :smile:. Atm i only have 1 access against burn w/c is warmth in my e-tutor sb, not sufficient against burn archytpes :(

[Mirrislegend]

@mirri: i think thats fine also edict for thalia, we love to hear some reports from you w/ your new sb conguration :smile: and your mox diamonds :smile:. Atm i only have 1 access against burn w/c is warmth in my e-tutor sb, not sufficient against burn archytpes :(

To be honest, having only 1x Finks in the SB can be kinda rough. However, he just does SO much for the cause that I've found it to be the best option (yea, he doesn't hold off a full team of dudes the way Timely Reinforcement does, but that is a rare situation)

[ryn ball_2]

@mirri: even at 1 finks i know you run GSZ so this single finks comes in handy and i see your point having it in RUG/UR that is eventually a good blocker for guides, mongoose, goyf and netting +2 life from there. Atm in our local meta burn decks doesnt mobilize in big numbers so warmth will still in my 75 but i love to use the finks maybe if i move away from sb tutor 2 finks will be sleeve in i guess, time will tell :smile:

Btw when decay comes up what will be your list from there?

[sdematt]

2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke

Seems a bit dated.

2 Krosan Grip <-- OmniTell ballbuster
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
Your Miracles hate.

2 Engineered Explosives
Your RUG and Maverick hate, but I think just play Abrupt seems fine when it comes out.

2 Timely Reinforcements
RUG/Burn Hate

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
Gravehate and Combohate

You could also shave numbers to fit 2-3 Thalia in. I'm not going to run Thalia quite yet since I run a lot more spells, but I think you could cut your EE's and a random for 3 Thalia, or just EE for 2 Thalia.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Seems a bit dated.

2 Krosan Grip <-- OmniTell ballbuster
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
Your Miracles hate.

2 Engineered Explosives
Your RUG and Maverick hate, but I think just play Abrupt seems fine when it comes out.

2 Timely Reinforcements
RUG/Burn Hate

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
Gravehate and Combohate

You could also shave numbers to fit 2-3 Thalia in. I'm not going to run Thalia quite yet since I run a lot more spells, but I think you could cut your EE's and a random for 3 Thalia, or just EE for 2 Thalia.

-Matt

KGrip doesn't stop Omni -> Gristle or Emrakul

I guess Timely is viable, as 3 critters carries equipment as well as a dude who lives twice.

Two copies of all these things seems pretty slim! Ever feel that you just don't draw your hate with those numbers?

[sdematt]

I really think the question we need to ask ourselves is this: how does Miracles or Miracle-Blade, since we'll most likely encounter both, win the game?

Terminus is by far their best card, allowing them to clear the board for W. Other board control cards lock creatures out, or prevent you from casting relevant creatures. You can't gain board presence to kill them when they're constantly sweeping.

They also play the long game better than pretty much anyone, searching for the one Entreat the Angels to ensure victory. So, how do we deal with this?

Turning off their card manipulation and advantage engines could be one way. Chains of Mephistopheles is one way to change this, but it still doesn't stop them from casting Terminus in any way.

Choke and Gaddock Teeg seem to be the right direction. The deck is SO focused on removing creatures that turning off their mana becomes huge. The stability of their manabase is a bit of a problem, but if you can land a Choke, that seems very good.

Another issue is that there Counterbalance curve is excellent. A nice amount of one drops, shy on two drops, but 2-4 of each 3,4, and 5 drops, making it VERY difficult to push through relevant removal in the late game. Since they have so many 3's (Cliques, Shackles, possibly Crucible or Swords), Krosan Grip might not be relevant enough. The Miracles player I played against floated 3 on the top of his deck for infinite to combat Knight, Choke, Pulse, and more importantly, Grip.

This deck is playing everything against creatures, so I don't think overloading the board with creatures is the right way to go. Taxing them with Thalia is definitely a strategy for some, 100%. I may go back on my word and at least give it a try, but I'd rather not choose creature based options due to the dedicated hate this deck has of creature based interaction. I also think Sylvan Library and Top become essential in this matchup. Card selection allows them to Miracle into oblivion, so we need the same power. We need to be playing 8 card advantage slots (Confidant, Top, Library, Arena, etc.) to keep up with Brainstorm, Jace, Top, etc.

To push through our stuff, I think targeted discard is going to be 100% required, especially since we have no other way to interact. Moving to 8-10 slots of discard between the main and board is definitely a good thing and overlaps in the Omni-Tell matchup. Abrupt Decay also seems to be a great answer to the Counterbalance plague of that deck, so I'd almost want to run more Decay if possible.

As well, I think Planeswalkers may be the answer, especially those that generate tokens. Elspeth and Garruk seem like fine additions, and even possibly sideboard material against this deck. Hopefully we push through with discard and waste their counters before dropping something they cannot remove. I don't think Liliana is where I personally want to be against this deck, since they'll just outdraw you. The casting cost and token generation means they can't just sweep the board, they have to remove your guys, and how are they doing that? Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere, perhaps, but definitely not EE for Sunburst = 4.

Running an additional Garruk or Elspeth in the side might not be a bad idea. Sure Gaddock Teeg doesn't want to play nice here, but does that matter? They'll Swords him eventually, so why not back up the guy who buys you time with something they'll have more trouble removing?

In summation, our creatures are going to be good, but also possibly less effective. We may need to switch to permanents that aren't creatures to try to lock them out of their own game. Destroying Counterbalance is 100% key to this situation, as is keeping up with their card advantage.

Regarding the discussion with Mox Diamond, the problem with Mox is two-fold. The first reason I moved away from it was the usefulness. We're running MANY one drops, and we have good things we're going on turn 1. Sure, they're not broken things, but they're very solid. Mucking a land may pump Knight, I'll agree, but the idea of being behind a land next turn doesn't interest me as much. The second reason is the late game issue. Essentially, Mox becomes another "land" draw off of a Sylvan Library or Top. It's not a card that's actually doing anything in the Miracles matchup. Beyond the first few turns, it's dead. This is not to say discard isn't a dead-er card later in the game, but at least with discard, I can take a look at his hand to try to push through a possible spell/creature to attempt to apply pressure. Mox does neither of these.

We run a decent manabase with 23-24 lands. We can support 2-3 Mox, but the question is, should we? Is it explosive enough for the times we get it with enough other land in hand (ideally, a Mox hand will have 2-3 land, which means the hand is already 3/7 to 4/7 taken up by the Mox combination) versus the times it becomes a dead card (opening a Mox + land instead of 2 land opener, or drawing it later)?

-Matt

[sdematt]

KGrip doesn't stop Omni -> Gristle or Emrakul

I guess Timely is viable, as 3 critters carries equipment as well as a dude who lives twice.

Two copies of all these things seems pretty slim! Ever feel that you just don't draw your hate with those numbers?

I know K-Grip doesn't, but what does? Do you have a better answer? You're never going to get a chance to O-ring if they Emrakul, and Gristle is going to draw them 7-14. you're hoping they doing something else.

Timely has been excellent, do not discount it yet :P

Sometimes I don't draw my hate cards in numbers, but it really depends what you're after. We could have a sideboard of five different 3-of's, but what would those be?

3 Grave hate (surgical)
4-6 Miracles
3 Maverick
2 RUG/Burn/Garbage
1-3 Random

Sure, the actual pieces might be 1-3 of's, but you have to look at the overall slot it fits into. What is this sideboard card doing? Why is it there? Most of the time you're complementing your arsenal with slightly different tools as opposed to ball0busting blowout plays, since we basically don't have many answers like that in BWG. Sure, Dread of Night is a nut-kick, but not a relevant nut-kick at the moment. You're mostly adding more cards against certain matchups while removing others.

-Matt

[Kich867]

Little confused by the counterbalance for grip comment, it was my understanding that counterbalance cannot counter grip because no spells or abilities can be put on the stack until it resolves. Is that not the case?

[Mister M.]

It's no spells and activated abilities. Counterbalance's ability is a triggered one.

[ForlornEgoist]

Little confused by the counterbalance for grip comment, it was my understanding that counterbalance cannot counter grip because no spells or abilities can be put on the stack until it resolves. Is that not the case?

How Split Second works is that players can't put spells or abilities on the stack, but cards still trigger. So, even though a player can't use Top to fix their top 3, CB still triggers. If a CB player is expecting Kgrip, often times they'll just leave a 3 drop on top for Kgrips and then just Top in response to any other spell.

Forlorn Egoist

[Mirrislegend]

I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups.

I think I'm going to try this SB. Improves my combo and Show and X MUs, while retaining game against aggro decks, control decks, and randomness. Thoughts?
4 Surgical
2 Teeg
3 EE
2 Timely
2 Choke
2 Thalia

[KobeBryan]

How Split Second works is that players can't put spells or abilities on the stack, but cards still trigger. So, even though a player can't use Top to fix their top 3, CB still triggers. If a CB player is expecting Kgrip, often times they'll just leave a 3 drop on top for Kgrips and then just Top in response to any other spell.

Forlorn Egoist

And thats why abrupt decay will replace every krosan grip in this deck.

[sdematt]

This is true, especially regarding Counterbalance. But, Grip hits Batterskull.

-Matt

[Angels]

It's no spells and activated abilities. Counterbalance's ability is a triggered one.
Even though it's triggered, it's still considered an "ability". Hence CB cannot counter Abrupt Decay.

[Mirrislegend]

Even though it's triggered, it's still considered an "ability". Hence CB cannot counter Abrupt Decay.

Mister M was explaining how KGrip can get countered by CBalance, assuming CMC 3 on top.

Anyways, did anyone look at the hypothetical list I posted within the last page or two? With the aggro base (ie: not sdematt's list), I dropped Stoneforge to try Thalia. I'm not sure how it would test, but maybe we can tweak it before I take it for a spin?

[ryn ball_2]

I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups.



Nice! the plan is pretty much basic extraction on stp and land a gaddock teeg and its game. Since i dont have teeg MB nor SB my game plan is to rape his hand by hymns, thoughtseize, liliana well that proves me it is a good plan i played several matches against them and a turn 1 hymn via mox against them is really good!

@your new sb: i think thats fine well rounded fighting aggro, control, GY, combo based decks

[Whippoorwill]

Congrats on the wins. Multiple diamonds can be annoying (and really surprising how often that's what you see from top/library). What're you thinking of changing the one (or multiples) into?

I think I might try replacing 1 Diamond with the Tracker from the board which would give me an extra SB slot.


I know K-Grip doesn't, but what does? Do you have a better answer? You're never going to get a chance to O-ring if they Emrakul, and Gristle is going to draw them 7-14. you're hoping they doing something else.

The only "good" answers that I can think of would be O.Ring (only bad if they drop Griselbrand since it takes Omni before they can cast Emrakul or anything else at Sorcery speed) or maybe Rule of Law/Curse of Exhaustion

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys! I've been away 'cause my pc died, and posting via phone is a pain.... Nevertheless, although I've been playing bw deadguy in the past month rock is my deck of heart, and I've been working on the following list:

3 seize
3 inquisition
4 plowshares
3 vindicate
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 elspeth
3 mox diamond
3 sensei's divining top
2 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam

this made space on my sideboard to add a third duress and o-ring (vs omniscience). Vindicate's ability to destroy lands proved quite useful vs burn and combos, and the deeds can take care of the sweeping. Elspeth can provide recurring threats, and as much as I like hymn, I had to drop it... It wasn't working optimally.

After rtr, I'm thinking about abrupt decay, maybe 3 decay 3 pulse, no deed? I'll still have to see.

Thanks again!

[Mirrislegend]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyards. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

I play Rock over Deadguy Ale due to getting big green beatsticks. Now, Goyf and KotR are no longer relevant. We're fucked.

[sdematt]

I disagree. Everyone's going to play it maindeck? I think not. Maybe it'll be in tutor-based Control, but other than that, I think all's well.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I also don't see much relevance in that card. GW has been using instant-fetched bojuka bogs all along and that didn't stop us. If this enchantment is cast early, it will have little impact and we can deal with it. If it is cast on the late game., it might as well be too late. It is not better than the black leyline, as well.

[sdematt]

Also, we have Abrupt Decay to nuke that shit, in case.

Who's going to be playing it? Maybe UWx. Maybe. Most likely Enchantress (but they want their GY if they're running Replenish), Death and Taxes (hello Virtue's Ruin), and maybe some other garbage.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Do you think it would be crazy in going 4 decay 3 deed and no pulse/vindicate (relying on elspeth, discards or brute force to deal with jace)? After I played with maindeck deeds again, I feel at least 2 in the main are needed... They are good against a far too great number of decks.
Also' playing online, I saw a junk that used unearth. I found that interesting....

[sdematt]

I think no ways to deal with an active Jace seems bad. Maybe it's not, but if they wipe the board and you have no pressure and discard didn't deal with it, do you just die?

-Matt

[mini1337s]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyards. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

I play Rock over Deadguy Ale due to getting big green beatsticks. Now, Goyf and KotR are no longer relevant. We're fucked.
Not many decks want to utilize this sort of mirrored hate effect. In our current meta, too many decks rely on their own graveyard to really want this effect. Maybe a more traditional U/W control deck could maindeck it, but that decklist doesn't exist yet.
The sky isn't falling quite yet, it's too busy dropping Giant Spaghetti Monsters out of the blue. Up your Krosan Grips, maindeck another Pridemage... you'll be fine :)

[Sughayyer]

The basic premise of The Rock is to trade cards/resources until all that's left is a big threat on our side. But I'm feeling our trades are always fair... We need to get some unfairness. That's why I thought of reusing deed on maindeck. Without hymn and deed our deck is always 1:1 ratio... Pointed discards, big beatsticks, spot removals... Everything way too fair.

[sdematt]

I see your point, don't get me wrong.

However, what matchups are you gaining value with Deed in? Miracles doesn't care that much (I mean, mucking Counterbalance is something, but still); RUG Delver will counter/Daze/Stifle the garbage out of it, and usually it'll be a 1-1 or at most 2-1; Maverick is where this shines.

The question is, where are you trying to extract the most value? Is it Miracles? Maverick? RUG? Dredge?

I think what we're really looking for is for extreme value against Miracles. With the RUG matchup, 1-for-1 is fine since we can run them out of threats (theoretically) with a decent enough hand, and Knight is just better than anything they have.

In Maverick, you're gaining tons of sweep potential for X-Y situations, where Y is hopefully approaching a value of 1, and X is maximal.

But, what does Deed do against Miracles? Nothing. The issue as well with "Miracles" is that there's a few variants that play differently. I've found the Miracle/SFM/Counterbalance list to be the best, and the most difficult to beat, because like you said, we don't have enough value in the cards we're playing. Certain cards have tons of value, like Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library or Garruk Relentless, but many others do not do anything except one for one. Compare this to Miracles. Terminus is an X-1, Counterbalance is an X-1, Top has extreme filtering advantage and potential to find more X-1's, and Entreat is literally a 4/4 X-1.

Abrupt Decay is interesting, however. Because of the fact it destroys or negates an X-1 card (namely Counterbalance), it provides a virtual X-1, and Pulse, though Counterable, provides possible X-1's, where X approaches 2 in good situations.

Now, what about the sideboard? If we have a ton of value pieces in the board, then I'd be okay in the forgoing of super value to trade for super efficiency in the main.

Like, let's see my board:

2 Pernicious Deed - Extreme value as you stated, but against Aggro, Maverick, Dredge, Enchantress, Stax, etc. When you are bringing this sucker in, you're winning, so that's great. The question is, do I want it in matchups like Miracles where I'm going to see it in my hand all the time and it'll be a do-nothing?

1 Gaddock Teeg - Turning off Jace, Terminus, etc. Perfecto. Many for one. Yay!

2 Choke - Again, value-town. Shutting off their blue production keeps them from playing good blue cards.

2 Timely Reinforcements: 3 dudes (possibly) and 6 life means you negate 2 burn spells and possible a few attacks. Definitely some advantage.

1 Virtue's Ruin - X-1 against Maverick + Death and Taxes. Seems fine.

3 Surgical Extraction - 3 or 4 for 1, but they'll have to have played or you will have discarded one copy, so technically more like a 3.5-1.5

1 Life form the Loam - Negating a possible 1-3 Wastelands or letting you get back 1 Wasteland to screw them? At worst a 1-for-1.

Then I have 3 free slots. Do I put in more crap against Miracles? RUG? Maverick? More likely, I'll want stuff against Combo and Miracles, so discard + Planeswalker/Choke?

-----------

I agree we need more value. I think if you're running into a ton of Maverick still, Deed is an excellent choice to punish their overextension, but in the main, I'm not certain, at least for me.

I think it's certainly possible to sub 3 Hymns back in for the Inquisitions, but really, is that where it is right now? Maybe it is. 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn, and 2 Duress/Inquisition in the board would do a hell of a job against OmniTell, but Hymn wouldn't be as great against Maverick nor RUG due to the overextension of manabase and colour fixing.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

You know guys that i run traditional dark horizon list w/ 4 hymn and 2 deeds MB @sug the most unfair cards in our list are hymn and deed thats why i cant remove it in my 60.

Pernicious deed is a game breaker, that deed saves most of my games in a critical situation from aggro opponent, control opponent (stax, rug, thopters, stoneblades and even miracles)

Placing deeds in the field against miracles seem's vague in some people, but if you analyze it that miracle player can't entreat to some values of X cuz those angels will die, plus if their sensei and counterbalance are online you can disrupt that i know they will flip the top to save it from the explosion but you are 50% free to resolve anything you want to play (no more CB) or even better trade if the miracle player have CB, SDT, SFM, sword of any kind.

Plus please don't push through hard of thinking how to beat miracles (i'm not arguing, pushing war comments) seeking "optimize solutions, hate" those hate are ON US NOW (eventually abrupt decay will JOIN US) deeds, discards, extirpates/extraction, pulse/vindicate, choke and i remember what mirri reported vs miracles (few page up)
"I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups."---pretty straight forward right? that statement put a smile in my face

*Just my experience, i dont push war/flames, if i induce a harsh statement, i'm sorry :cry:

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone discusse deathrite shaman as a 4 of in rock lists? It is easily the card that I am most excited for. It is mana acceleration, life gain and a win con in the same one cc card. Holy shit it looks good as a preview.

[ryn ball_2]

Has anyone discusse deathrite shaman as a 4 of in rock lists? It is easily the card that I am most excited for. It is mana acceleration, life gain and a win con in the same one cc card. Holy shit it looks good as a preview.

This card is really interesting, shrink opposing knights, steals snapcaster triggers, scavenging ooze-like 3rd ability. Definitely i will grab a set of this card but testing it hmmm maybe later on the top of my priority --abrupt decay-- :smile:

[lavafrogg]

Deathrite Shaman

Creature - Elf Shaman

tap: Exile target land from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
black, tap : Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
green,tap : Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.

1/2

This card is dumb and I am only beginning to think about how dumb it actually is. It lets us accelerate our mana base while controlling knights and stifling threshold/goyf growth. It is a main board able form of life gain that can put you out of reach of an aggro player or it is the perfect card to solve stalled game situations with its drain ability.

I feel that this card will change the way we build junk decks.

Oh god, it has such good synergy with Lilliana... push her out on turn two, gain life and drain opponents while discarding everyones hands and controlling the board with her sac ability....

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

Continuing my research with this card: It completely replaces mox diamond as our mana acceleration, which sucks due to the synergy of discarding a land to add a mana, but plays perfect with GSZ lists as you can either play him at 1 mana or GSZ for arbor at 1 mana, giving you 8 turn one mana acceleration plays! Wasteland ensures lands to eat against many of the formats top decks.

The card is also relevant against storm combo as you can eat their cantrips to lower ad nauseam totals and IGG loops/PiF.

I'm still going: the life gain counteracts the confidant life loss!

[f|i[p]]

Deathrite shaman can really be of potential use... and could really be good to replace mox diamonds, ofcourse, we don't get first turn confidants and such anymore...However it really does deserve some testing...

Would probably add a few more fetches just to make sure his mana producing ability is consistent early on each game...

[lordofthepit]

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

This card seems terrible against Miracles. This is just another creature that can get hit by Swords to Plowshares or their many sweepers (Terminus and Engineered Explosives), or run into Counterbalance lock in late game. If you want to use the "Grim Lavamancer" ability, your opponent can fizzle you by responding with a Snapcaster Mage and then casting the targeted spell. Unlike Scavenging Ooze, this card requires you to tap to activate, so you can't re-activate right over the top of them.

This card seems too small to affect the board, too conditional for the life gain or life loss effects to be worthwhile, and too insignificant as a piece of gravehate. The ramp ability would be very nice, but again, it's dependent on lands being available in the graveyard (and I believe this is not a mana ability since it targets something, meaning your opponent can "fizzle" the mana production with an Ooze).

IMO, it might see some play in Rock (think Ulvenwald Tracker), but I highly doubt it will be a staple anywhere.

[Stuuch]

Deathrite Shaman

Creature - Elf Shaman

tap: Exile target land from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
black, tap : Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
green,tap : Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.

1/2

This card is dumb and I am only beginning to think about how dumb it actually is. It lets us accelerate our mana base while controlling knights and stifling threshold/goyf growth. It is a main board able form of life gain that can put you out of reach of an aggro player or it is the perfect card to solve stalled game situations with its drain ability.

I feel that this card will change the way we build junk decks.

Oh god, it has such good synergy with Lilliana... push her out on turn two, gain life and drain opponents while discarding everyones hands and controlling the board with her sac ability....

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

Continuing my research with this card: It completely replaces mox diamond as our mana acceleration, which sucks due to the synergy of discarding a land to add a mana, but plays perfect with GSZ lists as you can either play him at 1 mana or GSZ for arbor at 1 mana, giving you 8 turn one mana acceleration plays! Wasteland ensures lands to eat against many of the formats top decks.

The card is also relevant against storm combo as you can eat their cantrips to lower ad nauseam totals and IGG loops/PiF.

I'm still going: the life gain counteracts the confidant life loss!

Tne card is good dont get me wrong but it´s also very conditional. What if you dont have lands in your opponents graveyard to exile for the mana? I bet these situations will occur. I dont want to eat my own lands to shrink my knight. The same goes for all the other abilities. If the resource you are looking for to gain life or drain life from your opponent is not in either yard the elf is just a 1/2 body. It does not grow bigger either like Ooze does.

I think I still want my diamonds as mana acceleration. They are much more reliable. Yes they are dead draws late game but I dont mind that so much. If this card is played more than just a one off zenith target it will require radical changes to rock decks and I dont find that essential at the moment.

[Sughayyer]

The card is good, bu it doesn't belong in the rock. See, a turn 2 liliana is great. But a turn 1 discard (that also gives us information) is better. It is too conditional to work, and doesn't impact the field (also, he potentially shrinks our own goyves).

[sdematt]

You know guys that i run traditional dark horizon list w/ 4 hymn and 2 deeds MB @sug the most unfair cards in our list are hymn and deed thats why i cant remove it in my 60.

I agree, they do give the most X-for-1's, but the real question is, is Hymn where you want to be against RUG? Especially since you have to move into BB on Turn 2, which usually means you'll have to do it off of 2 duals - not a situation you want to be in against a deck playing that much mana denial.


Pernicious deed is a game breaker, that deed saves most of my games in a critical situation from aggro opponent, control opponent (stax, rug, thopters, stoneblades and even miracles)

I agree with you 100%. Deed is amazing, but I cannot maindeck it at the moment. I have 0 space, and I'm seeing too much RUG and Spell Pierce to make me have to run it main.


Placing deeds in the field against miracles seem's vague in some people, but if you analyze it that miracle player can't entreat to some values of X cuz those angels will die, plus if their sensei and counterbalance are online you can disrupt that i know they will flip the top to save it from the explosion but you are 50% free to resolve anything you want to play (no more CB) or even better trade if the miracle player have CB, SDT, SFM, sword of any kind.

Unless your Miracles opponent goes full retard, you're never getting their Top (or, unless you have a very specific situation where you have Deed on Top, and they need to flip Top to Counterbalance, but at that point, they know their Top is dying)


Plus please don't push through hard of thinking how to beat miracles (i'm not arguing, pushing war comments) seeking "optimize solutions, hate" those hate are ON US NOW (eventually abrupt decay will JOIN US) deeds, discards, extirpates/extraction, pulse/vindicate, choke and i remember what mirri reported vs miracles (few page up)
"I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups."---pretty straight forward right? that statement put a smile in my face

But the thing is, what list has he actually been playing against? How good is the player? I'm not trying to say this hasn't been the case. I've stomped Miracles for a while, but only recently I've been losing more often than I'd like. Ideally, I'd love to grind Miracles and Rug tonight with Junk just to see what's up with the matchups again, and see what we would rather be doing. Maybe you're 100% right in that Hymn must come back, I could be wrong, it's just with the amount of RUG still floating around, is it worth it? However, if you are seeing a rise in Miracles, and therefore, a decrease in RUG (I've seen many, many tournaments with RUG being positions 2 or something in the Top 8, but usually Miracles seems to edge them out for first place), then I think would definitely be an option to re-explore (two explores? :cool:) at some point in the near future.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, 2600th post. Wewt.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

This card seems terrible against Miracles. This is just another creature that can get hit by Swords to Plowshares or their many sweepers (Terminus and Engineered Explosives), or run into Counterbalance lock in late game. If you want to use the "Grim Lavamancer" ability, your opponent can fizzle you by responding with a Snapcaster Mage and then casting the targeted spell. Unlike Scavenging Ooze, this card requires you to tap to activate, so you can't re-activate right over the top of them.

This card seems too small to affect the board, too conditional for the life gain or life loss effects to be worthwhile, and too insignificant as a piece of gravehate. The ramp ability would be very nice, but again, it's dependent on lands being available in the graveyard (and I believe this is not a mana ability since it targets something, meaning your opponent can "fizzle" the mana production with an Ooze).

IMO, it might see some play in Rock (think Ulvenwald Tracker), but I highly doubt it will be a staple anywhere.

Shaman won't stop you from playing your own scavenging oozes and will in fact help you zenith out your ooze faster to go over the top of other oozes.

The shaman is a mostly constant mana dork, between fetches, wastelands, knights and lillianas, with graveyard control, life gain and is a win condition that doesn't use the combat step. He is our version of noble hierarch and will be just as important in eternal formats.

Against miracles he comes down much earlier than snapcaster and can start eating the yard before the caste is active, if they add this to their swords me list that it is one more creature that is not gaddock teeg eating swords and counters. He is also a creature that can attack over mox diamond that does nothing in longer games.

[sdematt]

So, 3 hours of Miracles grinding later, I'm back with meaningful results and paraphrasing of discussions I had with Nixon, a level 2 Judge and the best Miracles player locally.

We talked over a few different issues, mainly why I was losing. He joked about playing a garbage deck with 1 for 1's with answers and no way to dig for them, leading to many times when we'll die with the wrong answer in hand. While this might be slightly true in that we are a reactive deck with a lower count of card manipulation, I don't think be truly even against the field is necessarily a bad thing.

So, we discussed sideboards, maindeck configurations, swapping in and out, card selection, etc. The first conclusion we came to is Rock never has to lose to Miracles, ever. You can construct Junk in such a way that you will win the Miracles matchup way more often than not. However, you'd have to sacrifice so many matchups to do this, it may not be worth it. Point taken, and I have said this before. It's all about finding a middle ground where you're still doing well against the field.

We discussed Hymn over Inquisition, and we came up with the fact that in the main, you want Inquisition all day everyday. Why? Firstly, if you're on the play, you immediately Thoughtseize to take Top. Every game I won consisted of me nuking Top in some fashion, whereas the games I lost usually went into Topdeck mode with me having nothing, and him having nothing and a Top. Top/Library manipulation really controls how this matchup goes. Sylvan Library is also REALLY good here, and the same with Dark Confidant. The Miracles player has a touch time interacting on the Stack without Counterbalance, and Top just filters all the good things for better board and stack interaction. They MUST kill Dark Confidant immediately of face losing to not only beatdown, but you wrecking them with great answers.

You want Inquisition to take Top, Counterbalance, or another relevant card like EE/Shackles. Hymn, while in his words, "a very decent card against us," doesn't do enough to necessarily warrant its inclusion in the maindeck in a meta with a ton of RUG in it as well. You want the targeted discard to take the things you want, not strip a land + Land Tax or something like that.

Abrupt Decay should take over more slots was another conclusion. Abrupt Decay was ridiculously effective, taking out Counterbalances, Shackles, EE, Delvers, Goyfs, Cliques, and Equipment/Sylvan Libraries. It was highly effective against Counterbalance and I loved seeing it all day. The relevancy of uncounterable, instant speed Vindicate was incredibly relevant.

For now, I'm moving to 3 Decay 2 Pulse, since again, "Why is this a question? A 3-mana do nothing or a conditional, uncounterable 2-mana do something?" Now while this statement is a bit hyperbolic, the choice does makes sense. We have other ways to interact with Jace and Batterskull, so 2 Pulse is still fine since instant and uncounterable makes up for the shortfalls of 3-CMC or less.

Back to the Miracles matchup. We agreed that we need to attack on a plane not tangential to creature combat. Creatures are good, but laying 1-2 out at a time and applying pressure is easily the best answer when playing against 1-CMC Wrath effects. That's also how I won my games: apply enough pressure that there's a clock, but not enough to get blown out.

Discard, while good, isn't the end-all-be-all in this matchup. You can't assume you win because you play Discard, it just helps you out a bit, and doesn't stop anyone from Topping into the goodness.

As for the Surgical Extraction argument, again we came to the same conclusions - the plan in itself isn't inherently awful, it's just depends how you're achieving it. If you're boarding out 10 cards with nothing more to bring in except Surgicals, it's probably fine. If you're cutting relevant cards for Extirpate effects, you're going to have a problem. There's no real card advantage generated from Surgical Extraction. It's a strict 1-for-1 at the moment, and doesn't really provide virtual card advantage either. There isn't a Moat negating a bunch of Goblins, therefore providing virtual card advantage by making them less than optimal. This is basically nebulous card advantage where you hope to avoid seeing additional copies of that card in the future. This isn't a combo deck we're playing against. But again, if you're bringing out useless cards and bringing in Surgicals, it's not bad at all, but not NOT remove good cards to bring Surgical in, since it just isn't enough. I'm bringing out 6 slots to bring 6 in for my board, and there's no Surgicals coming in. There's some value in mucking Snapcaster, but not enough in my opinion.

The better hate cards against this deck are Gaddock Teeg, Choke, and Planeswalkers. My friend commented Choke mixed with discard, permanent removal, and Gaddock Teeg where the ideal mix of answers he doesn't want to see. Choke locking up a mana heavy deck, along with Gaddock Teeg sapping the power of his Miracles spells does do wonders on him. However, Gaddock Teeg will get bounced or removed, it will happen, so you need a mix of threats to get there.

We argued about the Thalia plan, and came to the conclusion that unless you're running a crap-ton of creatures, Thalia really isn't for you. Additionally, Thalia doesn't matter as much since the reason why you're playing Terminus is to be able to pay the Thalia tax and clear the board. It's better than nothing for sure, but perhaps not what you're looking for depending on your list that you're playing.

I argued we required a slot that was both good against Combo as well as Miracles. Thalia was one option, but so was straight up Hymn to Tourach. He said the card was decent against him, and probably better than other answers. Hymn doesn't slow you down in this matchup (Thalia would), and works to rip apart the hand. Hymn should complement additional targeted discard, not replace it. It's also good in the Combo matchup. Perhaps not quite as good as Thalia, but still pretty good.

I said I wanted more Chokes, but again, that doesn't help your combo matchup any more than dedicated blue-hate. Hymn does fill the role enough, and we have the slots to remove.

So, my sideboard looks like this:

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam

And seems to handle much of the meta where it sits as of right now. Against Miracles, I probably go:

-4 Swords
-1 Tracker
-1 GSZ
+3 Hymn
+2 Choke
+1 Gaddock Teeg

I don't like cutting the GSZ, but what else do you cut? You can't cut creatures, since you need pressure. You can't cut lands, since you need those too. Can't cut card advantage or manipulation, since whoever wins that battle finds the answers to win the war. You don't want to cut discard, either. I guess if you had to, you could cut 1 Inquisition, but I'd rather have the discard to get their Top. Again, this is where the match is decided some of the time. You need to get their Top.

Hopefully this rambling was helpful and maybe illuminated why I've been saying certain things.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Matt: going boldly where nobody has ever been to push Rock to its limits :p many nice infos!
@lavafrogg:
I understand what you mean about the shaman. While we might keep our reliquaries mostly safe (we can drain our opponent's GY), you realize he withers our own goyves? Otherwise it'd be great.

If we resoort to 6 pointed discards, we could go 4 stp, 3 decay, 2 vindicate/pulse, then, we could use 1 or 2 deeds and a planeswalker like elspeth or garruk, to provide constant beaters (since we usually only play 10-14 guys in a world where decks run 8 plowshares... :()
while we will not 2:1 his hand anymore, we will do so with the field (angel tokens still are cmc 0).

Well, I did too much rambling as well, hope it was undertandable :p

[Claymore]

Very insightful...I'm gonna borrow some of that and take it to Nic Fit!

[Arianrhod]

And now Claymore brought that over to Nic Fit, I'll bring some Nic Fit over here!

We've had a fair amount of success with Tsunami and Cranial Extraction -- for you guys, Choke is probably better, but be aware that some Miracles lists I've seen are starting to adopt Banishing Stroke as a way to deal with Choke. Cranial Extraction is probably the best true hate for them, because they lean almost entirely on Entreat and Jace TMS to win games. If you Cranial their Entreats, you should never have to worry about the matchup, and Cranial is good vs combo decks as well. I fully recognize that we get a lot more mana than you guys do in general, but Miracles is gonna be a slow matchup and you should be able to hit 4 mana easily by the time it matters.

Also, you might want to look into something like Phyrexian Arena. As Matt pointed out, the games you lose to Miracles are those games where you both run out of gas, but they can filter with Top. In my experience with Nic Fit, if you have a Phyrexian Arena out, you just bury them. Again, things are a little different because Nic Fit has a different bevy of threats to work with, most of which are hard/impossible to counterbalance, but you get the idea. Bobs are good, but fragile -- supplementing them with Arenas might not be terrible. If you can outdraw them, you can beat them -- they rely on card quality, not card advantage.

Just some thoughts from your big (mana) brothers =)

[ryn ball_2]

@matt: nice report matt!! some insights from a miracle player nice to hear those :smile:. I'm a little bit stubborn but i love to use hymn against RUG while not worrying to produce BB thanks mox diamond!, mox diamond is one of my cards that theoretically good at them 1) can provide extra black for double B cards, 2) wasteland proof, 3) in turn 3 my 2 cmc spells are daze-proof 4) can throw away fetches for mox so their stifles are dead cards.

Back again to miracle, @matt you new sb configuration is very interesting i'm sure that handles miracle match up very well :smile:. I hope i can grab another copy of teeg cuz i only have 1 :rolleyes: and atm in my list i dont want to run GSZ so atm battling miracles this is what i commonly side-in/out

MB
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 pulse
2 deed
3 mox
4 STP
I usually do -3 mox, -4 stp, +2 extirpate, +2 e tutor, +1 needle, +1 choke, +1 EE
I sided out mox diamond knowing miracle decks may not running wasteland so fetching for correct mana color is easy, i know 1 choke is really rough :rolleyes: (consequence of running e-tutor package but that's fine for me)

@arianrhod and claymore: we love to see you guys dropping by here in The Rock thread, to be honest i always sneak to your own thread for some updates not to stole those informations but for the new advancement in nic fit, i play nic fit too BGW rector build and planning to adopt punishing nic fit. As for tsunami and cranial extraction--these cards are interesting w/ an assumption that miracle player doesnt run wasteland so i can drop this w/ ease but really hurts alot when flip by bob. Maybe i can test it cuz no harm in testing new ideas :)

[Sughayyer]

Played today with deadguy and left mid-tournament.... I'll just wait to get my decays to get back at the rock. I guess I just need some variations sometimes :)
I was talking to a friend of mine (member of the Brazilian mtg team) and he brought an interesting point: few GOOD decks nowadays play jace, we could go 4 abrupt decay MD.
I think I'll finally have time for some decent playtesting in the next week, and hopefully I'll get to a nice list.

[lavafrogg]

@lavafrogg:
I understand what you mean about the shaman. While we might keep our reliquaries mostly safe (we can drain our opponent's GY), you realize he withers our own goyves? Otherwise it'd be great.


In my testing with the Shaman I have been switching back and forth between goyf and SFM in the same slot. I have been very pro goyf for a while now and I am still not sure that the interaction between goyf and shaman is enough to make me shy away from the big green guy. With the selection of cards in graveyards it is easy to keep one of each card in someone's graveyard as the game goes on.

The hardest cards to keep if you get an early shaman are lands and creatures but I haven't needed to use the mana ability that much after turn 3-4 and the drain life ability becomes better the longer the game goes as the activations start to pile up.

Shaman plays really nicely with Liliana of the Veil, which after being dropped to a 2 of for a Garruk, is back up to a three of for the double discard/graveyard filling +1 ability.

Mox diamonds and my copy of life form the loam have been dropped and I am still playing the full four GSZ to ensure a turn one mana play, shaman or GSZ for arbor. With no land recursion maindeck anymore, when I get wastelanded I have the shamans fully fed to help stave off mana screw.

Finally, multiple late game Deathrite Shaman on the board are a beating. I gain a bunch of life and you lose a bunch of life kthx? The fact that it doesn't have to be activated for mana every turn and can always just eat extra instants/sorceries to drain or even swing for one for the fuck of it make this card super playable in all states of the game.

One last point, Shaman plays really well with a Scavenging Ooze of your own as the scavenging ooze still gets larger every time it eats a creature and the shaman eats everything else for even more effect. I usually zenith for ooze against more dedicated graveyard decks but the early shaman gets me until turn three/4 where I can zenith with mana up to nom nom a graveyard or pay a daze cost.

I will have a full list up shortly after I see how abrupt decay fits into my 75 and other new card goodies.

Matt- awesome miracle analysis! With 4x shaman that I am working on, how do you feel about thalias in your sideboard against miracles and combo? The creature count starts to climb with 4 shaman 4 thalia in addition to our 16 usual creature count, could be almost worth it.

[Sughayyer]

Frog, I'm not saying it is bad. But, for instance, if you play four of him and 6 1cc discards.... What would you play in turn 1? Him or a discard? Also, he has even less synergy with deed than mox (our loam retrieves the "lost" land if needed). Again, I'm not saying it is bad, it DOES seem interesting, but maybe it leads to a different kind of build?

[lavafrogg]

It is for sure a different direction for the deck, deed would be a no-go but I have been more of a fan of engineered explosives over deed for a while now.

As for the 1cc discard vs him, I would easily play him and then discard plus 2 drop on turn 2 if it was a blind matchup. If i knew what I was playing then maybe discard first would be optimal but I think against the field having him active opens up a lot more options for the junk player. It also plays nicer with all planeswalkers in that it can ramp up to their mana costs sooner, especially through wastelands and other disruption.

SFM with jitte, shaman gives a relevant attacker to swing with...all creatures are threats with a jitte on the board.

[sdematt]

Matt- awesome miracle analysis! With 4x shaman that I am working on, how do you feel about thalias in your sideboard against miracles and combo? The creature count starts to climb with 4 shaman 4 thalia in addition to our 16 usual creature count, could be almost worth it.

Thanks!

I think if you're getting to the 20ish creature point and above, much like Maverick, Thalia seems perfectly fine.


Frog, I'm not saying it is bad. But, for instance, if you play four of him and 6 1cc discards.... What would you play in turn 1? Him or a discard? Also, he has even less synergy with deed than mox (our loam retrieves the "lost" land if needed). Again, I'm not saying it is bad, it DOES seem interesting, but maybe it leads to a different kind of build?

Well, I think it depends what you're playing against. If you're against Miracles, you Discard. Combo? Discard. RUG? Either discard to clear removal for shaman, or just shaman to bait removal. If you have no idea? Discard to gain information. But, you're right, there will be conflict over him or Deed. However, the chances of you starting with both one of both Deathrite and Discard is about .16, but you also have to assume Top is in there, so more like .25 for some combination of Top, Shaman, or 6 pieces of discard. The statistics here are really not that accurate, but as close as i could remember how to do it.

He has infinite less synergy with Deed, I agree. But, it depends if you want to run EE or not instead of Deed. Plus, you can run Virtue's Ruin instead of Perish here, so you avoid mucking your own guy. Success!


SFM with jitte, shaman gives a relevant attacker to swing with...all creatures are threats with a jitte on the board.

This is true.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Regarding Hymn:
-Someone mentioned it being not so hot against RUG. Yes it doesn't save you from immediate pressure. But given their lack of card advantage, it tends to be CRIPPLING against them.
-Against Miracles: yes, they play better off the top of their library than any other deck. However, that is still very much more limiting than having a hand full of options. Hymn may not be the optimal discard vs Miracles, but it's still very worth playing.
-Hymn BLOWS OUT Maverick.
-Hymn severly wounds the random tier 1.5/2 decks that make up a fair amount of any field.
-Hitting the Big 3 and the ever-present random for great value is why I alway play Hymn

I've been a very vocal proponent of Hymn for a while. Please note that all my input is relative to my deck: Hymn is not for every build. I play a much more aggressive version of Rock than sdematt does. As a result, I'm less equipped to handle the enemy's cards when they hit the board. Thus, hitting their threats, answers, and general resources while still in the opponent's hand is very advantageous for me. Meanwhile, sdematt is more than happy to let the opponent vomit their hand onto the board and then blow it away. Please keep this variation of tactics in mind when evaluating Hymn's viability in your deck.

[Okipa]

What do people think about the deck that came in fourth in the most recent NELC? Not sure if this is a worse Maverick, a worse Rock or a good hybrid, but did place well in a strong 90 player field. The number of humans for Cavern is interesting.

Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Duress
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Stony Silence
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Path to Exile

[tsoatt]

I Haven't played the Rock in a few months but, I have been keeping up with this page.
I feel like this deck is moving away from what made it great, having every card be a must answer. We keep adding cards that work well in other decks that water down our strategy. Cards like stoneforge mystic and GSZ are good but they aren't overwhelming. Cards like vindicate and pernicious deed are. I posted my old list a while ago and got very little feedback even though it was a good list I am going to throw an updated list out because I think it is a good answer to this meta.

Artifacts:
3 Top

Creatures:
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the reliquary
1 Scavenging ooze

Instants:
4 swords to plowshares

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious deed

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of kozilek

Lands:
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
8 fetches

SB.
3 Worldly tutor
1 thalia
1 teeg
1 kitchen finks
1 kataki war's wage
3 timely reinforcements
3 extirpate
2 open slots depending on meta

I know people are going to claim that worldly tutor is card disadvantage but, it is a full turn faster than GSZ and it can grab non-green creatures making one of's of thalia and kataki viable. When a card is your silver bullet card advantage matters little especially when a card like teeg can just shut off an entire deck. I also believe that vindicate is better than pulse because I won many games on the back of knight plus vindicate taking out my opponents lands, this makes it not a dead card game one versus combo decks.

[lavafrogg]

As far as all cards are concerned, not playing any GSZ is just wrong. I also strongly disagree with 3 maindeck pernicious deeds as combo is actually a thing right now and it is another dead draw in addition to swords. GSZ vs SFM is pretty much the debate with the inclusion and exclusion of tarmogoyf being thrown in to the mix.

I will divulge more after I get back from work.

[Sughayyer]

Frogg, tsoatt's list is the same as mine when I started playing. In theory it SMASHES combo (10 MD discards) and has a great MU vs aggro. But, I learned that using moxen make my game faster (that list had 11 3-drops and that's a lot, almost 20% of the deck). If mox goes in.... Deed usually gets out.
HOWEVER if we jump to the full tempo list, we MUST run vindicates. Four. Because we will want to break the lands. Goyf shines on early game, and dark horizons was devised to make your opponent stay in his first turn forever.

[tsoatt]

Deed gives this deck game against dredge and if you haven't noticed that many T.E.S. decks and ANT decks are running mb empty the warrens. IMO GSZ is a good card in decks that aren't the rock, test out this list it is slow and grindy the way the deck is supposed to be played.

[ryn ball_2]

@mirri: i agree w/ you, i'm not bandwagoning the hymn to tourach but it is still the best card in my 75 as well as in my list
"Please keep this variation of tactics in mind when evaluating Hymn's viability in your deck. " --thank you mirri :smile: well atm not most build of rock hymn will be suited w/ ease :smile: but still i respect every list of rock :smile:

@tsoatt: i like your list, i bet it is 3 scrublands not badlands right? anyways i suggest that -1 wasteland, +1 bojuka bog (fast GY hate via KOTR), i think -2 IOK and +2 liliana of the veil she is really good. My question is do you have some problems generating correct mana for your early spells in first 7 cards? i fear that there are sometimes that you drew scrubs but your spells are in green-splash if you have some problems correcting manabase i would suggest adding mox diamonds but i would love to hear some reports based on your initial list :smile:

@sug: about deeds and mox diamonds, in my current list i ran 3 mox diamonds, 2 deeds, pretty insane right? :smile: at my normal games i usually use up 1 mox diamond for manabase and the other copies are food for liliana +1 ability, whenever i would like to hit deeds in the field i always fetch for basics lands even mox diamond would be destroyed still i can cast my spells w/o worrying being wastelanded and being mana-screwed afterwards. Issues about vindicate i have the feeling that after decay will be legal in legacy i think i will go back to vindicate (decay and vindicate MB), in my own reasons token decks are isnt that rampage in my local meta plus decay is really significant hitting 3 cmc relevant and threatening spells just like what pulse did (w/o echo) and now the purpose of my vindicate is to pop lands of my opponent, it can hit planeswalkers too but we will see after i test my hypothesis :smile:

[Sughayyer]

@ryn
I'm testing 3 moxen + 2 deeds (plus, 4 abrupt decay). Didnt play too much but I liked it. About tsoatt's early spells, 8 fetches + 5-6 duals ensure them, but the deck is in fact prone to wastelocks (that's why the moxless versions often run 24 lands)

[ryn ball_2]

@ryn
I'm testing 3 moxen + 2 deeds (plus, 4 abrupt decay). Didnt play too much but I liked it. About tsoatt's early spells, 8 fetches + 5-6 duals ensure them, but the deck is in fact prone to wastelocks (that's why the moxless versions often run 24 lands)

True non-mox build ran 24 lands, i also test it but still they are times wasteland really hits hard and i want to play green spells but off the color of the duals so from that moment i went 23 lands+3 mox build and never change it until now. Even RTR hits my land+mox configuration stays the same but my initial plan is 4 stp+3 decay+2 pulse/vindi and 2 deed are coming from side and my theory against aggro it will stays the same as like w/ MB deeds cuz we have thoughtseize and hymn acts like a pseudo-creature removals :smile:. What do you think sug? :smile:

[tsoatt]

Discard isn't that great against aggro decks because often times they will drop their biggest threats turn one or two and if you follow it up with a discard spell then their creature an hit you. I always boarded discard out on the draw and put the one mana discard back in(depending on the MU) on the play.

[Sughayyer]

Right now I am at this:
3 seize
3 iok
4 plowshares
4 decay
3 mox
3 top
3 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 elspeth
2 deed
1 library

same ol'23 lands

I playtested vs affinity, rug, counterbalance, eva green and belcher. Other than the belcher killed me 2 times before I could play, I was undefeated.

For the while omniscience is still a deck, so I got O-rings on the side. These deal with jace too. When that monkey deck (omniscience) get a ban, I'll probably put vindicates/pulses in their place.

[Mirrislegend]

How are people doing against combo? The classically "unfair" decks have just been wrecking me. My maindeck (with Stoneforge) crushes fair decks, but always seems to scoop hard to combo. I'm going down to 1 Choke in my SB, just to fit in the 3rd Thalia! I'm also considering swapping a Teeg into the MD and going down to 1 Goyf (frowns, but I gotta beat them somehow!). I'm also pondering the Mindbreak Traps from Kyle Olson's list. My list going into this weekend's big duals event:

4 Confidant
3 Stoneforge
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Goyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach (maybe -1, +1 IoK?)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 GSZ
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Thalia
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Choke

[Mr. Safety]

I know Abrupt Decay is getting a lot of attention...what do folks in here thinkg about Deathrite Shaman? I'm planning on testing a 1-of for GSZ, probably replacing my 1x Birds of Paradise I'm using now.

What do folks think about Deathrite Shaman in Rock? (note: I play 4x Life from the Loam and 24 lands in my deck, I think I'll have an easy time making this guy work.)

[Mirrislegend]

I know Abrupt Decay is getting a lot of attention...what do folks in here thinkg about Deathrite Shaman? I'm planning on testing a 1-of for GSZ, probably replacing my 1x Birds of Paradise I'm using now.

What do folks think about Deathrite Shaman in Rock? (note: I play 4x Life from the Loam and 24 lands in my deck, I think I'll have an easy time making this guy work.)

If you're playing a 1-of Birds and not heavily dependent on Knight of the Reliquary, it seems like a perfect fit (although he's kinda anti-synergistic with LftL).

[lavafrogg]

Opinions on the card range from its horse shit to its the best card for rock players everywhere. With arguments ranging from inconsistent birds of paradise and weak scavenging ooze to uber utility that gives mainboard hate options against many decks.

I think it is fucking fantastic and will be getting 4 as soon as I can, I don't think it plays well with LftL but I could be wrong, I have seen some lists with it and grisly salvage to fill the yard with goodies but we won't know who is right until october.

[lavafrogg]

How are people doing against combo? The classically "unfair" decks have just been wrecking me. My maindeck (with Stoneforge) crushes fair decks, but always seems to scoop hard to combo. I'm going down to 1 Choke in my SB, just to fit in the 3rd Thalia! I'm also considering swapping a Teeg into the MD and going down to 1 Goyf (frowns, but I gotta beat them somehow!). I'm also pondering the Mindbreak Traps from Kyle Olson's list. My list going into this weekend's big duals event:

4 Confidant
3 Stoneforge
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Goyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach (maybe -1, +1 IoK?)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 GSZ
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Thalia
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Choke

From my experiences you are actually doing the opposite of good to beat combo on a regular basis. You need a larger clock to match up with your disruption...Stoneforge, knight and your swords are all too slow to be interactive with the combo decks of legacy. On average the first piece of disruption buys you one turn while the second piece buys you two. You need a way to kill the combo deck before you run out of turns or disruption. This is also where I do not like hymn because you only care about their key combo enablers and not hand quantity.

I have had little trouble with combo with goyf x4, GSZ x4 for teeg(after board), 6 1cc discard spells and Lilliana x3 to keep them down, but I know you don't want to hear that. The problem with Black based disruption is that you always give your opponent time to recover because you have to play your disruption are fast as possible and not just react to them trying to win.

Your side looks good now but you are bringing in 8 cards for a matchup that you will still lose because they can just win before you get to play your disruption. You have to ask yourself if it is worth your sideboard space to fight combo decks in your meta. If it is you might want to look at more goyfs mainboard so you can have a faster clock. At a rough glance you have 17 cards you don't really want to draw against combo. Neither disruption or a fast clock...so it is what you make of it.

[Sughayyer]

@mirri
I agree with frogg, and I add the following:
hymn is for a tempo build, stoneforge is for a control build. Mix them together and you will be able to win either because you are facing a deck that loses to stoneforge (provided you get the right equipment) or because you hit 2 key kards with hymn. That means, both factors mostly do not depend on you. Combo does not give you time for that.
If you stick with sfm, maybe you should go to 6 1cc discards. If you'd rather have hymn, your strategy is the tempo one - put a full set of goyves and vindicates, disrupt him agressively (tempo decks must play more recklesly, but with consistent disrupt).
I hope i wasn't too confusing.

[Mr. Safety]

Opinions on the card range from its horse shit to its the best card for rock players everywhere. With arguments ranging from inconsistent birds of paradise and weak scavenging ooze to uber utility that gives mainboard hate options against many decks.

I think it is fucking fantastic and will be getting 4 as soon as I can, I don't think it plays well with LftL but I could be wrong, I have seen some lists with it and grisly salvage to fill the yard with goodies but we won't know who is right until october.

I also think he's fantastic...not a 4-shot, but definately a 1-of for GSZ. I don't think he's as good as Birds or Ooze separately but doing both jobs passably with an easy mana cost seems really good. I like the reach, and I don't think the anti-synergy with Loam/Knight is that much of a bother...remember that opponents are using lands too, he can go for either graveyard. In fact, he is good AGAINST loam decks TBH. I'll be removing opponent's Wastelands/Fetchlands to feed mana and removing their Ponders/Thoughtsiezes/etc. for the life loss.

[sdematt]

I'll reply to all the stuff on the thread tonight, I've just been uber busy.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

matt-blah blah blah, talk about deathrite shaman, he is dumb and I want your opinion.

[Rummelboxer]

Hi!
This post might include nothing new for you, but i changed my opinion of
SFM in Rock-Decks. SFM and the package around it seemed some kind
of slow to me, so i just played straight creature-bases like:

4 Bob
4 Knight
3 Goyf
2 Ooze

Knight, Goyf and sometimes even the Ooze grow up very fast and are
our main-threats for the enemy. After a lot of matches my opponents
told me that they really dont know what they should board in. In my
experience, hate which removes the whole GY - like the leyline, reel
of sun and moon and so on - is a real problem for us. If an opponent
decides to play this kind of hate, he does everything right.
Knight and Ooze stay at 2/2, Goyf at 0/1. In this case SFM becomes
our mainweapon. Batterskull and Jitte are still threats to handle. Even
if we dont have to play against GY-Hate, SFM still catches the
point-removal. As i said, you probably knew it,
but i misprized these facts for a long time.

[lavafrogg]

Hate against rock type decks is almost always what we have in our lists to beat them than the other way around. We will always heavily disrupt and attack every opponent and any edge we can get over our opponents allows us to sneak by with wins. That being said, we never really do anything overpowered or "not fair" and that a problem that we have.

Anything that stops us from attacking is good while any other angle of disruption is less than stellar. A rest in peace in play keeps our goyfs and knights small, but it will not stop us from attacking with them while waste landing you every turn and it sure as hell won't kill our active dark confidant.

I have found that

[sdematt]

So I've got 15 minutes to make an intelligent reply.

But, I'll start off with some more Miracles testing yesterday, huzzah!

First, Mirrislegend, you have nothing to worry about with Rest in Peace. That card is a joke. I was playing against the deck from the Karsten Cotter article, with Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience. Even when he just had Rest in Peace out, I didn't care. I was still beating down with 1/1's and 2/2's while making him discard and blowing stuff up. Even when I had the chance to take out RIP, I wanted to wait until I could get more value, like blowing up RIP with Energy Field on the table. Seems sick. Don't worry about this card. Someone can bring it in as side hate against us, but I think they're wasting their slots.

Against true Miracles, I played a 55 minute post-board game against them, and it was sick. He went through his entire Library, I was down to 10 cards. I had EVERY one of my creatures removed from the game or put in the graveyard (but then RFG due to my having Ooze). I ended up Oozing away about half of his library, taking away all his Entreats out of the graveyard so he couldn't Snapcaster them back on turn 50 or whatever.

Hymn to Tourach was nice in the sideboard, as was Choke + Gaddock Teeg. Teeg faced some issues concerning Karakas when I didn't have Wasteland, so he snuck an Elspeth in while Teeg was in hand. But, I still came back and finished him off by decking him after my last Dark confidant ate a Swords. Maze of Ith kept off his last Snapcaster Mage from killing my while I was at a few life and he slowly died :)

@ Deathrite Shaman

First, his manacost is excellent. Being able to run him off a Swamp and then into possible turn 2 Hymn if you wanted off Basic + Dual seems great already. Exiling lands should be too bad considering we're running 11 lands that go to the grave, and most people should have something. Just make sure we don't muck our own stuff too badly.

The exiling of a creature seems good as well, but too bad there's no +1/+1 counters to be had. The 2 life is decent though for the same mana investment. I like this.

The removing instants or sorceries, I really like this one. Plus, it means you don't have to have infinite green online, your back mana not for Ooze can also be doing something. We're not wasting idle mana here, which is a good thing. Plus, hating out Snappy seems fine. Even if this guy bites the dust from Snapcaster doing something, at least it wasn't another guy who got hit.

It depends how graveyard oriented you want to get. I could see this as a nice 1-2 of, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it for mana production. It should be a nice bonus as opposed to "replacing" a Birds of Paradise or something. 4-of could be interesting, but I think you'd most definitely have to build around it.

I think a Grisly Salvage list with this could be something worth looking into maybe as its own thing. I'd say give it a shot, it seems cool.

-Matt

[Hanni]

I haven't seen many Junk-style lists lately. I've been out of the Magic scene for a while, but not long enough to be out of date to what is going on (metagame, etc). Is there a reason Junk doesn't see play anymore, aside from just lack of popularity? The black disruption suite seems like it would be good against Miracles and Show and Tell, while still being pretty good against most of the format.

B/g/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tombstalker

Spells (27)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

This is just a rough list. I figured Sinkhole would be good in this metagame, though I might be wrong. Bad against RUG obviously, but it seems like it would be decent to great against everything else. I guess I'm still a fan of the old Waste/Sink/Vindicate plan.

Abrupt Decay is absurd. 2cc uncounterable Smother that hits nonland permanents, ay? Mini Vindicate at instant speed is frickin awesome. Dodging Daze, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, and whatever else... frickin awesome. I can't think of too many matchups where the card isn't an all-star.

Since this is a tempo deck, I wanted to maximize my ability to shred an opponent's hand before landing a fatty. Goyf/Knight/Stalker are pretty quick clocks when the opponent is short on lands, cards in hand, and permanents in play. Resource denial + big beater has always been a fun yet effective strategy for me.

Like I said, it's just a rough list, but I'm still curious why the Junk-style lists have completely disappeared.

EDIT: My list should probably have a Karakas in it. -1 Canopy, +1 Karakas.

[sdematt]

Some less skilled players need a crutch called Force of Will. Some don't. These men and women play Junk.

Not seriously, but the deck isn't awful at all, I think people don't have faith or feel the need to play Force of Will when you really don't need to.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

On why people don't play junk more often: You don't get to do anything inherently broken while you are playing junk/rock. The whole lifeblood of the deck is just having a solid and consistent 75 with decent match ups against the field. With this being said it is just a midrange deck with weaknesses in the super early game, no force of will, and in the super late game, no counterbalance/any lock.

After that we are just a Knight of the reliquary deck that doesn't play Mother of Runes, so our knights die easier...

The deck requires you to make the correct lines of play from the very beginning and has very few save your ass cards that can save you after you have fucked up. What do you discard on turn 1? Goyf or Bob? Knight or Bob? GSZ for what?

If you know the format and what decks you are playing then you can make the correct choices and in turn win some games. If you don't know the format, which most people don't, then you are better off picking a deck with the brainstorm/force safety net or even an I win button to ease play.

That being said: Back to Deathrite Shaman... He has made me ask some dumb questions over the first few turns of the game... Should I save a land in his graveyard for future mana usage? Is me having 2 life better than him not having 2? Can I stall long enough to drain him out or should I be using him to stall longer? It is really fun, everyone should take an hour and play at least one...or four.

[Megadeus]

On why people don't play junk more often: You don't get to do anything inherently broken while you are playing junk/rock. The whole lifeblood of the deck is just having a solid and consistent 75 with decent match ups against the field. With this being said it is just a midrange deck with weaknesses in the super early game, no force of will, and in the super late game, no counterbalance/any lock.

After that we are just a Knight of the reliquary deck that doesn't play Mother of Runes, so our knights die easier...

The deck requires you to make the correct lines of play from the very beginning and has very few save your ass cards that can save you after you have fucked up. What do you discard on turn 1? Goyf or Bob? Knight or Bob? GSZ for what?

If you know the format and what decks you are playing then you can make the correct choices and in turn win some games. If you don't know the format, which most people don't, then you are better off picking a deck with the brainstorm/force safety net or even an I win button to ease play.

That being said: Back to Deathrite Shaman... He has made me ask some dumb questions over the first few turns of the game... Should I save a land in his graveyard for future mana usage? Is me having 2 life better than him not having 2? Can I stall long enough to drain him out or should I be using him to stall longer? It is really fun, everyone should take an hour and play at least one...or four.

I bought 4 already, but is he really that good in this style of deck? I do agree that the Grim Lavamancer-like ability to burn someone out is kind of nice, but a full 4 of? Multiples arent awful, but they arent amazing either.

[sdematt]

@tsoatt


Artifacts:
3 Top

Creatures:
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the reliquary
1 Scavenging ooze

Instants:
4 swords to plowshares

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious deed

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of kozilek

Lands:
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
8 fetches

SB.
3 Worldly tutor
1 thalia
1 teeg
1 kitchen finks
1 kataki war's wage
3 timely reinforcements
3 extirpate
2 open slots depending on meta

I wanted to give you some feedback on this, since I know you've been waiting for some.

I think this list is totally fine, it's much more back to the roots of Junk the way it was 1-2 years ago. Nothing inherently wrong with this at all, but what does your meta look like? Is it a ton of Combo? 3 Deed seems like a lot especially when you only have 13 creatures to run with. Wordly Tutor is really good against Combo, but awful against Counter-based control decks, since if they counter your awesome play, they 2-for-1 you. In the other Maverick thread, there was discussion on Enlightened Tutor going for Choke against Miracles. This is something you never want to do ever, since they see it coming and they 2-for-1 you. The tutors are the best if you need the answer immediately, but face not as much opposition.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Just getting home from ATL. Didn't play my typical list in the invitational (went with a Bant deck that we'd been testing instead, things didn't go well) but did in the legacy event. Ended up going 6-2-1. I'll talk about those later. For more pressing topics...

@tsoatt - You have a lot of discard in there. Have you had any thought to cutting some number for Liliana? She does the discard thing and works really well with other discard. Other than that, the list looks like it's just too heavy on discard.

The speculative cards from RTR - I only see two worth giving a shot, Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm. Nothing else looks like it does anything I may want or need.

Reasons I don't like the 1/2 for G because the abilities:

Involve tapping it.
Shrinking your knight (to a 2/2-3/3 if you play it on turn 2) if they don't bin a land (losing knight to bolt sucks).
"Burn" them for 2 (since when do we need reach?!)
Rely on certain types to be in the graveyard to work.
Are out-preformed by both Ooze and bird.


Some possitives I see from him are:

Can block turn 1 Lackey even with an Incinerator in hand.
Gains 2 life

Tournament Shorts

Legacy event matches were:

Round 1 Miracles (2-0)
Round 2 Canadian Thesh (2-0)
Round 3 Goblins (2-0)
Round 4 Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 5 Maverick (1-2)
Round 6 Bug Delver (2-1)
Round 7 Miracles (0-2)
Round 8 Goblins (2-0)
Round 9 Canadian Thresh - (ID)

Maverick match I misplayed out of on turn 1 of game 2 (lost first on mull to 4 or 5 and won second with issue).

Miracles landed Counterbalance and kept a 3 floating (first was blind'd) paired with Terminus until Jace appeared both games.

ID to Canadian Thresh because I didn't care to play anymore magic (come on it was almost all weekend). He did the offering and I was more than willing to take him up on it. We told each other what we were playing after.

If anyone has any questions, I'll try my best to answer them.

Edit - I hate being the first one on a page to write something :(

[sdematt]

Yeah, that's usually how I lose to miracles. They find a 3, and then just float it for infinite while I cry that I can't play Knight.

Go go gadget Abrupt Decay!

"Your warranty...has been scrapped." /with Austrian accent

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I agree with Ian, but there's one more thing: shaman *looks* like a better draw than the mox on the mid/late game...

[sdematt]

It's much better than a late drawn Mox for sure, but is that enough to make it an include? A slap to the face is better than a kick in the nuts, but it doesn't mean I want it all the time.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Ahahha yeah, I was just wondering.

[damionblackgear]

I'll take the slap :wink:

Just going a little further on Shaman/Mox- There is a chance on turn 2 that you still won't get to use the Shaman to play a 3cc spell, even with another land in hand. Just the same, there's a chance you don't get to play the same spell with Mox + 2 lands in your opener. Mox, however, is a permanent answer to Moon effects, Wastelands, etc. Shaman is only temporary.

Mox also helps with Knight/Goyf (artifact in the yard? Yes, please) while Shaman will probably hinder them if you're forced to use your yard.

[Hanni]

On why people don't play junk more often: You don't get to do anything inherently broken while you are playing junk/rock. The whole lifeblood of the deck is just having a solid and consistent 75 with decent match ups against the field. With this being said it is just a midrange deck with weaknesses in the super early game, no force of will, and in the super late game, no counterbalance/any lock.

After that we are just a Knight of the reliquary deck that doesn't play Mother of Runes, so our knights die easier...

The deck requires you to make the correct lines of play from the very beginning and has very few save your ass cards that can save you after you have fucked up. What do you discard on turn 1? Goyf or Bob? Knight or Bob? GSZ for what?

If you know the format and what decks you are playing then you can make the correct choices and in turn win some games. If you don't know the format, which most people don't, then you are better off picking a deck with the brainstorm/force safety net or even an I win button to ease play.

That didn't answer my question why more people don't play Junk at all. All that did was summarize what most everyone is doing: playing a Maverick deck with a black splash. While there is nothing wrong with Maverick/b, your post did not address my question. My question was why barely anyone is discussing Junk and why everyone is discussing Maverick/b.

The entire gameplan is fundamentally different. The lists with Birds/Hierarch, GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, etc... those decks are midrange aggro decks. Junk is a tempo aggro/control deck. At any rate, the format seems alot friendlier to Junk right now than to Maverick/b.

[Kich867]

That didn't answer my question why more people don't play Junk at all. All that did was summarize what most everyone is doing: playing a Maverick deck with a black splash. While there is nothing wrong with Maverick/b, your post did not address my question. My question was why barely anyone is discussing Junk and why everyone is discussing Maverick/b.

The entire gameplan is fundamentally different. The lists with Birds/Hierarch, GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, etc... those decks are midrange aggro decks. Junk is a tempo aggro/control deck. At any rate, the format seems alot friendlier to Junk right now than to Maverick/b.

This color combination is something I'm quite interested in, and maybe I'll eventually build it, but I'm still quite new to the distinction between the two decks you're referring to. What exactly is Junk compared to this? I don't mean this in a demeaning tone but quite frankly, saying that a deck is a "tempo aggro control" deck is a step away from being the single most vague and undescriptive qualification of a deck one could make.

Like what does an ideal Junk game look like? IE: Nic Fit wants to play an explorer and a therapy / flash it back by turn 2 to hit a Deed, then drop huge fatties that are out of range of deeds for one-sided blow outs. It accelerates the game state to a point where legacy decks aren't used to getting to and don't operate well at--Nic Fit will utilize 6 mana significantly better than most decks will.

Or is there a Junk thread that's not this thread? (Also, Necra is a far, far cooler name for this color scheme than Junk is haha).

[Hanni]

Junk has had spikes of popularity over the years, but if you are relatively new to the scene (not saying you are, but your join date for The Source is 2011), you wouldn't be aware of what Junk is.

The term "tempo" is vague, I agree. I was using that classification to distinguish it from the midrange aggro strategy, but I'll be happy to provide more clarification.

Historically, the black tempo design started off as B/w Deadguy Ale. The compisition of the deck was spot on, but it had a pretty bad capitalization on its tempo, utilizing expensive unaggressive card advantage creatures as opposed to cheap efficient clocks (i.e Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter).

Anyway, the core of the deck (Junk) isn't that much different from Canadian Threshold, New Horizons, Team America, etc. You still run a rather light creature base with efficient p/t creatures (10-12 typically). The difference is that instead of using a blue disruption package, the deck uses a black disruption package.

Instead of trying to gain tempo by interacting on the stack, Junk gains tempo by attacking the opponents hand and board resources (more easily referred to as resource denial). You hit them with effects that are powerful at the beginning of the game, but get weaker as the game goes on. Basically, Junk uses the black disruption package to destabilize the opponent, which creates a window of opportunity where it can drop an efficient p/t creature and kill the opponent before they can recover. The basic fundamental gameplan isn't any different than a deck like RUG Delver.

The list I posted on the previous page is a Junk list. It's fairly easy to notice the difference in composition between it and the Maverick/b decks being discussed. By Maverick/b, I'm referring to the decks that are heavily invested in a green/white midrange aggro package, with a light amount of discard maindeck, and some black removal options between main and side. Decks with GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, Planeswalkers even... those fall into the midrange aggro strategy, which I'm calling Maverick/b for simplicities sake.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

EDIT: Oh I also wanted to add that, as far as I am aware, Junk has always been discussed in The Rock thread. I don't believe there has ever been a seperate thread for Junk, except for a thread I made back in like 2008 called "Deadguy Rock," but I'm pretty sure that thread no longer exists. If it did, I would have just posted in there in the first place. ;)

EDIT 2: Moved this discussion to the Format Discussion forum instead.

[damionblackgear]

Hanni, the answer is two-fold, simple, and unwanted. Not only are we not blue, but the thread is full of random archetypes mixed together.

There's a huge push for blue decks by both Pro and popular Joe players. There's also a heavy criticism for any non-blue player as having had made a sub-par choice. So, when new players start, they're typically handed blue decks now and told to never do anything else because Brainstorm is the strongest card in legacy*. Filters allow for mistakes as you have a better chance to recover from a mistake. So, in essence, the "traditional" blue decks are playing with a crutch. In this case, a lot of players are unwilling to get rid of the assistance and stand on their own.

The different archetypes become apparent as you search even the last 10 pages of this thread. Different packages, which in other decks warrant different threads (current AnT and TES are the best example as the real difference lies in the manabase at this point) are something that's overlooked here and advised on as a group. The confusion leads people to stray away as they get multiple viewpoints telling them to go many different routes. Example, I say play the Mox and 23 lands and Matt says play 24 and no Mox. While that may be small, when you start getting into packages - like Stoneforge, Green Sun, Discard, Planeswalkers and Removal - many new players become afraid to try out the different archetypes inside this one thread.

I guess the phantom 3rd part is strong opinions of this thread. There are many strong opinions in this thread. People sometimes seem like we're attacking your viewpoint. In reality, we're trying to understand your point or trying to make a point. If the conversations were in person they'd be done with food, drinks, and smiles (well, I'd look mad but that's just me).

Mind you, We do have multiple major tournaments wins this year. The two SCG wins were done facing the "top deck" of the time in the finals. It also placed multiple times in the top 16 with fewer players playing it at these tournaments than any of the tier 1 decks (haven't done the exact research but we average 2-8 players in a field of 300).

As for the names, I'll leave that alone. I can understand simplicity. I will say though, that's the reason Junk, Funkbrew, Rockguy (you're welcome hanni), Truffle Shuffle, and Dark Horizons (probably the best related to the "Maverick/b" deck you're mentioning) are all in the same thread. Although, I'm still not sure how Nic Fit got out when it is actually The Rock.

Kich867 - To clarify, Junk got it's name from the junk creatures it played (River Boa, Simian Grunts, etc) and like most older legacy decks, came from an Extended port. Most of the B/G(w) decks use a similar (if only in style) disruption package so it was the threat size/speed that really define the difference in name. Junk, after losing it's name the first time, began being called Aggro Rock in this thread. To my knowledge as well, there has been no official Junk thread and is probably the oldest archetype without its own thread.

I'll post some version of this in the other thread as well. I saw that but had already started typing/editing this.

*I don't think Brainstorm is the strongest card in legacy, just the best filter. I think the basics are the strongest cards. Island/Swamp being the strongest (daze/snuff out) and forest/plains being the weakest (Submerge/Massacre). Mountain's just the 0 point.

[Dzra]

Just thought I'd drop by and see the old Junk thread. ;p


Filters allow for mistakes as you have a better chance to recover from a mistake. So, in essence, the "traditional" blue decks are playing with a crutch. In this case, a lot of players are unwilling to get rid of the assistance and stand on their own.

This is totally false. Try playing with Brainstorm and Ponder. Filters help smooth your draws, but they are by no means a crutch or easy-mode. Setting up your draws in the wrong order or shuffling the wrong cards almost always means you lose. There is very little room for mistakes.


Filters allow for mistakes
Yes


you have a better chance to recover from a mistake
No

[damionblackgear]

In other thoughts, I've been thinking of adjustments to be made post RTR. I've come up with a less invasive add for Decay than most as I've found my current removal package to be sufficient at killing pretty much everything.

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Choke
1 Timely Reinforcements


I've been thinking more on Thrun as an alternative to something in the 75 as well recently.

The decay in the main, in theory, allows me to not need the 1cc removal spell in the board. I'm thinking that because the average CC of the removal package has lowered enough. Paired with the two Pulse I should be able to deal with the big stuff as well; since there are more Jace than Miracle decks (since they play it as well), I figured to go 1;2 (Decay;Pulse).

Charm replaced the Zealous Persecutions as it does a similar thing and allows for regeneration of my team (survive EE or deed) and kills an opposing enchantments. Granted, Now my Bobs, Birds, Thalia's, and Trackers are going to die to this one. I would say that's more of a reason to cut Thalia but there aren't any decks I can think of that I want both against for their non-bo reason. It's probably more of a reason for Tracker.


This is totally false. Try playing with Brainstorm and Ponder. Filters help smooth your draws, but they are by no means a crutch or easy-mode. Setting up your draws in the wrong order or shuffling the wrong cards almost always means you lose. There is very little room for mistakes.

This complaint has been commented on in the other thread (Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24709-The-Current-Metagame-Junk-vs-Canadian-Threshold&p=675367&viewfull=1#post675367)). Most of us who have played non-blue decks, have also played Blue decks. So, I won't comment more on that here. If you want more of a response on the subject, use this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24709-The-Current-Metagame-Junk-vs-Canadian-Threshold).

[Dzra]

This complaint has been commented on in the other thread (Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24709-The-Current-Metagame-Junk-vs-Canadian-Threshold&p=675367&viewfull=1#post675367)). Most of us who have played non-blue decks, have also played Blue decks. So, I won't comment more on that here. If you want more of a response on the subject, use this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24709-The-Current-Metagame-Junk-vs-Canadian-Threshold).

Well, if you want to look at beating Brainstorm decks, you have to understand how they work. They rely on flexibility. They have all the answers in their deck for just about any kind of threat. The problem is when you overload them with one type of threat. Maverick is great at this because it taxes their creature removing capabilities. All their draws are creatures that need to be dealt with and you can only shuffle so many Spell Pierces back into your library.

The problem Junk has with Brainstorm decks is that it is trying to attack on multiple avenues. Messing with GSZ, Vindicate, and Liliana presents opportunities for Spell Pierce to be live. Mox Diamond further ruins your ability to topdeck into a threat they can't answer. I'd start with a list more like this:

Land 24

Creatures 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells 20
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[lavafrogg]

I have a new post shaman list that is pretty solid so far:

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
1 pridemage
1 gaddock
1 scavenging ooze

4 green sun zenith
4 thoughtsieze
4 swords
3 Lilliana
3 vindicate

23 lands
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 arbor
4 wastelands
8 fetchlands
3 bayou
1 savanah
1 scrubland
3 basics

Things I have learned: death rite shaman is fucking rediculous. You get to use the maverick plan of having 8 turn one "mana" drops with zenith and the shaman. Your curve also tops out at three so you usually always have a t1 or t2 play if shaman doesn't hit land on turn two.

I have dropped the number of discard spells because early threats can be nullified by shaman life gain and most early threats can be answered by the early graveyard hate he provides(t1 against reanimator or dregde buys enough time for ooze to get online).

Thoughtsieze stays at four for its awesome utility and disruption abilities. The removal of the other discard makes room for the other all around answer in vindicate which maybe should be decay to ensure that shit always dies when it needs to.

Shaman has changed matchup percentages into junks favor almost across the board. Against maverick he keeps knights small while ours are full size, this leaves us as the better knight deck while we both have scavenging oozes to get active.

RUG must kill this one drop for it nullifies land destruction and keeps mongeese out from threshold, while blocking them!!, this keeps counters and burn aimed at our one drop and not at our confidants.

It makes the smallest waves in the miracles matchup but it provides the most effect. In the longer miracle games you can force them to blow a terminus on a life draining shaman when the shaman has started to clear the yard of instants and sorceries. He has been doing 10-12 damage per game against people that haven't been killing him.

Comments? I'm not sure how the board changes now....

[Hanni]

Well, if you want to look at beating Brainstorm decks, you have to understand how they work. They rely on flexibility. They have all the answers in their deck for just about any kind of threat. The problem is when you overload them with one type of threat. Maverick is great at this because it taxes their creature removing capabilities. All their draws are creatures that need to be dealt with and you can only shuffle so many Spell Pierces back into your library.

The problem Junk has with Brainstorm decks is that it is trying to attack on multiple avenues. Messing with GSZ, Vindicate, and Liliana presents opportunities for Spell Pierce to be live. Mox Diamond further ruins your ability to topdeck into a threat they can't answer. I'd start with a list more like this:


This is wrong and assuming that every deck with Brainstorm has the same funamental gameplan.

Playing a very heavy threat density (against the type of blue decks I'm assuming your talking about) works well because they lack the amount of creature removal to deal with the threat density. At a certain point, they run out of removal, while the aggro deck continues to draw creatures.

Miracles works well against heavy threat density decks like Maverick because it has enough removal to deal with their threats, and has a sufficient amount of card advantage to make sure they have more answers than the aggro deck can play creatures. Terminus hits multiple guys, giving the deck virtually more removal spells while at the same time providing card advantage. Counterbalance can gain incrimental card advantage over the course of the game, despite not being able to "lock" Maverick out, which is all it really needs Counterbalance to do in the first place.

Junk works well against Brainstorm decks, I'm not sure why you feel the opposite. Disrupting them proactively is one of the best ways to attack a reactive blue deck, actually. Again, not all blue decks with Brainstorm are the same. Discard is universally good against reactive blue spells, but something like land destruction is great against a mana hungry deck like Miracles and worse against an efficient deck like RUG Delver. Regardless, the mult-angle attack is still extremely effective and synergetic. Attacking the opponents hand forces them to commit threats to the board in order to not lose them, which then get destroyed by the permanent removal.

The only zones where there stuff is safe is on top of the library or in the graveyard. This deck can easily attack the graveyard postboard, so they are pretty much limited to effects like Brainstorm, Jace, and Top especially, to safeguard their stuff. The problem with relying on the top of the library is that reactive decks want their spells in hand so they can react with them and not on top of the library.

There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. Disrupting an opponent may not be a guaranteed way of preventing things from happening. An opponent can topdeck a Swords to Plowshares, for example. What it does do is throw the opponent off-balance, and it makes it alot harder for them to effectively deal with your threats.

As another example, let's say you attack Miracles manabase a bit. Instead of digging for lock pieces or whatever, they will be digging for land instead. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Cutting them off of flashing back Swords to Plowshares or casting Jace is nice.

On the flip side, let's say you blow up some Delver(s) and/or Goyf(s) (with removal, against RUG). Now instead of digging for countermagic to counter Junks creatures (since Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt are worthless at dealing with Junks creatures), they are digging for more creatures. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Resolving a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary after they resolve a 3/3 Mongoose is nice.

I do agree with your assessment of blues flexibility and consistency, and overloading a blue player with a large threat density does work well against typical blue aggro/control decks like Stoneblade and RUG.

[sdematt]

Thank god someone else has a good level of insight into the format to see that we're not an awful deck, Hanni.

I would respond in the other thread in detail, but I've got a bad cold, so that won't happen today or tomorrow :/

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Finally got a chance to check in. This is on a phone, so please forgive hideous writing

My Stoneforge build died a horrible death at my local Duel for Duals. Sug's comments about lack of clock were tremendously evident.

Given the sad state of my Stoneforges, I went back and reexamined my changes since my times of success. Turns out, my brandy new Mox Diamonds took over slots that were previously Lingering Souls. LSouls is great with equipment, hence my previous successes. In order to make room for LSouls, I'm cutting the Stoneforge + equipment package, then adding in the best equipment to round out the deck. Current list looks like this:

4 Confidant
3 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
3 LSouls

3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
3 jitte
3 mix diamond

23 land

I'm pondering cutting one Jitte for a Birds or a SoFI, but this is a pretty solid core for this different way of running equipment in rock

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- I have long been against stoneforge builds but with my experimenting with death rite shaman think I will be picking the card back up for testing. The extra four bodies to pick up equipment should always give us someone to hold a jitte. I don't think it will outplay the speed of the green giant but I could be interesting...

[Sughayyer]

@Mirri:
I never said stoneforge is not good, I said it is not tempo-oriented. Forgive me if I,m talking rubbish but, let's go:
1) hymn plays well in a tempo deck. The whole premise of dark horizons was: cast hymn to rip hand apart, throw fat dude, vindicate land, ride to victory. Well, more or less, but you get the point. Your hymn is lost in that build. You are giving plenty of time for your opponent to recover.
2) lingering souls when carrying equipments can be nice. When you use swarms of tokens to overwhelm your opponent (like the new bw builds) is nice, too. In any other situation, all they do is stall the game.
3) 3 jitte seems strange, but I understand what you mean.
You must decide what you are trying to accomplish with the deck. Tokens to carry equipments? Rip your opponent's hand and attack his resources while goyf punishes him? Take the control of the board, wipe it clean and drop a fatty? You cannot do all of those in the same deck, and you must decide what is best due to your meta. I'm also on the phone, it's too awkward to post a list thru here, but tomorrow I'll post some suggestions

[lavafrogg]

The only player to still play the SFM package is Ian, correct? Maverick, for the most part, has left the mystic behind for just more copies of jitte(which is better in the mirror and against destruction effects).

With most decks packing answers to equipment across their 60's SFM has not been good for awhile now. Especially when you do not have free counter magic to protect the little guy. Goyf is ,IMO, just a better card for people who play green.

That being said I am still testing SFM in my Death-rite list.

[lavafrogg]

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Choke
1 Timely Reinforcements




Few questions about your list:

1. Why no Savannah in your mana base? If you draw your basic swamp/bog and a fetch land you can not fetch for all of your colors.

2. What did gaddock teeg ever do to you? He is a great help in the miracles and storm match ups and is easily fetch able by your GSZ, extract on swords GSZ for teeg is a pretty solid win against miracles on most days.

3. Why only three knight? As the best creature in the format and pretty much the reason GWx decks exist right now I am a little confused as to why you only play three, especially when you have the ability to play him on turn two and just roll.

4. Where is the misers copy of life from the loam? Against maverick and RUG is can be a game winner when you negate all of their mana denial in one fell swoop ,or 2cc sorcery...one or the other.

5. I am really squinting my eyes here and I cannot see golgari charm being better than any of the cards you listed: zealous persecution, EE, pernicious deed are all cards you should be playing over the charm. The only enchantment you can kill in this format is counterbalance and the 2cc charm is not going to be doing that regularly. The regenerate also seems sketchy in that the decks you will be regenerating your creatures are the decks you would want the -1/-1 sweeper effect against(maverick) any other deck will be RFGing your creatures.

[Sughayyer]

As I posted yesterday, I'll put on a few decklists, to whomever may interest (also, this is the second part of my reply to Mirri). Also note, all this is pre-rtr, and are also *my* views of the deck (they might make no sense at all for you, but might help).

Tempo build (AKA Dark Horizons):

4 thoughtseize
4 hymnn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
4 bob
4 goyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
1 pernicious deed

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 horizon kanopy
1 maze of ith
4 wasteland

---------
"hard control" list (the grindy, slow list I used to paly before)

4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse
3 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
1 elspeth, knight-errand
3 pernicious deed
3 top

(this one uses 24 lands)

I personally think hat list is extremely outdated. Hymn is relevant when you don't let your opponent breath, and although there are indeed big threats here, the presence of 3 pernicious deeds indicates that you *want* a slow game. A slow game might win vs a lot of decks, but cold-loses to stoneblades and miracles (on a scenario where jace digged the deck twice or three times, you opponent probably won the game, no matter if you destroy him or not).

Now, two lists I've been testing:

3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozlike
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
3 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
2 liliana
1 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam
1 sylvan lybrary
3 mox diamond
3 top

this one is an attempt to a tempo build, but relies less in hymn to tourach. It also looks more consistent than the first build. I also tried with 4 abrupt decays and 3 vindicates on the list (plus minor changes). Worked nice.

Last night I was testing this, with SFM and GSZ (yeah....). SInce I'l probably play this next wednesday, no decays on the list yet.

3 seize
3 iok
4 plowshares
3 top
3 mox diamond
3 tarmogoyf
3 bob
3 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
1 ooze OR kitchen finks (solely because he has to be killed twice)
1 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
1 batterskull
2 maelstrom pulse
2 green sun's zenith

that list uses also a dryad arbor.

SFM + jitte OR SOFAI is a great way to control the board. I missed Liliana in my tests, must make it fit in there somewhere (lost to progenitus... sniff...)

On one more note, people will stop playing show & tell when everybody starts using angel of despair on the sideboard. Try it, it's hilarious.

[Mr. Safety]

The great part about the lists that use Mox Diamond, or at least 24 lands, Angel of Despair is actually feasible to hard-cast if you draw into multiples g2-3 (not that you would really need to...)

EDIT: I'm really curious what folks think about Garruk Relentless. Is he playable in this deck?

[sdematt]

He's actually the nutter butters. I'd play 2 if I had room. I've usually won most of the games where I had him come online. Producing deathtouch Wolves after mucking a creature is no joke. The Trample usually means your Knights are getting there, even if they have garbage in the way. I'd give him a shot.

He gets even better if you run the Ulvenwald Tracker, since then you just get Wolves to fight their Knights, and they get hosed.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Gaaruck has been a 3 of in my side board and I have been going the mass planes walker plan against miracles and other control decks. A constant stream of 2/2s and liliana stripping hands and demanding sacrifices is hard to keep up with with jace or elspeth.

[sdematt]

I was also going to say a stream of 2/2's against Miracles isn't awful AT ALL.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I'll have to toss out my list then for reference because I'm playing 1 maindeck Elspeth and 1 maindeck Garruk Relentless, and I haven't tested it out much. I feel like its strong, but I'd like some feedback:

1x Birds of Paradise
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Eternal Witness
2x Terravore
4x Knight of the Reliquary

2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Raven's Crime
1x Profane Command
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Life from the Loam
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless

4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Treetop Village
1x Nantuko Monastary


My whole plan is to disrupt until I can land a big threat (Knight/Vore or Elspeth/Garruk.) I have the long game in mind, so the longer the game goes the stronger I get. I know I'm in the minority but I have been using 4x Loam for a long time in Rock and I absolutely love it. My inclination, if Garruk is as good as you say he is, is to drop 1x Raven's Crime for another copy.

[Sughayyer]

I think 3 ravens' crime is a bit too much indeed.
Mr. Safety, seeing how you rely in loan, what is your gameplan exactly? What happens if you end up milling al the cards you need? Ever felt need for volrath's stronghold? What is the post grave hate strategy? I'm asking all this because I know a lot of people still like loam (including me).

[Mr. Safety]

I am working on getting a Volrath's Stronghold, just don't have one ATM. Thanks for the note. So far GSZ>>>Witness and Profane Command have done well at getting my threats back, but Stronghold is definately on my prioritized list of wants.

I agree on the Crimes...I feel like going to 2 would be fine. What do you suggest for that slot (or should I just trim down to 60 rather than 61 cards?) EDIT: Mox Diamond seems like it could fill 2 spots in the deck nicely, whatcha think?

My gameplan is this:

1) Early turns disrupt with discard/removal
2) Board wipe/big fat threat/PW
3) Ride loam to utilize cycle lands drawing extra cards, Raven's Crime raping my opponent's hand, and dredging more lands into the yard to feed Terravore/Knight of the Reliquary

My experience with the deck is the longer the game goes, the stronger I get. I have played a few matches, here are the matchups/results:

1) Aggro-Loam - 2/0 - I have more removal for his threats, he brings in grave hate game 2 while I sideboard in Leyline of Sanctity, effectively hosing his discard and Seismic Assault. I deal with all of his threats and smack twice with a massive Knight FTW.

2) Dutch Stax - 2/0 - G1 he keeps laying down lock pieces (Moat, Humility, Ghostly Prison, Thalia) and I just Pulse him out of the game, I got lucky and TS-ed a Trinisphere on turn 1. G2 he plays the same game and it goes realllllly long. This is where my deck shines, around turn 11-12 I GSZ for Eternal Witness, grab a dredge-ed PDeed, pop it for 4 to wipe out everything. He concedes post-Deed.

I know both of those decks are mid-range decks, so I need a lot more practice against other decks.

[damionblackgear]

I do feel like the only one that's still running mystics. I also felt like the only one to start. I don't think it's a bad call, just one that changes the versatility and speed of the deck. Jitte's awesome vs aggressive decks. Likewise, Batterskull's better vs control. I think the best reason to cut them is that it opens up more lines of play. Thus, giving more chances for mistakes.


Few questions about your list:

1. Why no Savannah in your mana base? If you draw your basic swamp/bog and a fetch land you can not fetch for all of your colors.

2. What did gaddock teeg ever do to you? He is a great help in the miracles and storm match ups and is easily fetch able by your GSZ, extract on swords GSZ for teeg is a pretty solid win against miracles on most days.

3. Why only three knight? As the best creature in the format and pretty much the reason GWx decks exist right now I am a little confused as to why you only play three, especially when you have the ability to play him on turn two and just roll.

4. Where is the misers copy of life from the loam? Against maverick and RUG is can be a game winner when you negate all of their mana denial in one fell swoop ,or 2cc sorcery...one or the other.

5. I am really squinting my eyes here and I cannot see golgari charm being better than any of the cards you listed: zealous persecution, EE, pernicious deed are all cards you should be playing over the charm. The only enchantment you can kill in this format is counterbalance and the 2cc charm is not going to be doing that regularly. The regenerate also seems sketchy in that the decks you will be regenerating your creatures are the decks you would want the -1/-1 sweeper effect against(maverick) any other deck will be RFGing your creatures.

1) I actually forgot to re-add it. I took it out for a little bit of testing and put it back in after. The thing was that it's very rare that I actually needed the G opposed to black (where I hadn't gotten basics). It also helped with extra lands vs any deck running submerge. I put it back in because there were enough, late game, examples that I felt it was ok in and didn't care too much about the other parts. i will say that it was very nice having multiple duals to be able to fetch against submerge.

Also, I copy/paste the lists right out of my google doc that I have linked in my signature. So, I'll have to fix it there or it'll stay that way for a while.

2) Teeg didn't do anything to me. Then again, he rarely did anything for me either. I understand that most of the decks that are out there can play around "Thalia's Tax" but I feel that the overall meta's dealt with Teeg pretty well. They either play low until they're ready and deal with him accordingly, or they don't. Miracles has even started running things like O-Ring to deal with him (as well as Omniscience). So, it's more so that I've cut him because I don't feel he's as well places. I will say, since I have cut him, my combo matches have gotten a lot better and I'm actually not just conceding in my head even when I play Belcher.

3) I've never had the third knight. Even HERE (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571) I felt like three was enough. The reason I don't play more is because we already play way more 3cc spells than other decks in our range. We also lack the speed to run one out there right from the start (limited GSZ and mana dorks). Decks like Maverick are essentially running 8 T1 mana dorks (Hierarch and GSZ), allowing them to almost make sure that they're getting to 3 mana on the second turn.

I've tested with 4 and I felt as though I always had too many three's in hand at the start of the game. Now, I know that I'm a very greedy player but, I'm not greedy enough to keep a hand that slow against anyone except Stoneblade and pre-Omniscience Show and Tell.

4) I'm a basics whore. I don't need Loam to keep my lands vs those decks. I fetch basics and watch them huff and puff. I'm also very key on my basics as well (ie no forests post board vs canadian thresh unless I have an active knight).

I feel loam is a recovery plan if it's being used to get back lands (and that's all) which is a place that I don't want to be, regardless of what deck I'm playing. I also feel, and have talked about, that loam is a wasted turn (or series) as we can't do anything with the extra lands during that turn (save Liliana). I think Safety's list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=675922&viewfull=1#post675922) with Raven's Crime is the best way to go because it can do something with Loam's extra lands.

I also feel it's not very well places as we do typically only draw 1 card per turn (I'm aware of Top, Library, and Canopy) so the loam is typically our draw for the turn. In that scenario, the only time I want loam is when I have access to those cards and know that I don't want any of them at all, EVER. That scenario, I feel, is the reason for sideboarding. If you've found cards that you don't want in a match, board them out. Yes, there are situations that it's just at the time (like looking at 3 lands) but you'll probably have a way to shuffle your deck which leaves you in a similar same situation.

5) I think you're unknowingly downplaying charm's abilities. The enchantment destruction is far more relevant than just counterbalance. Sneak Attack, Sylvan Library, Omniscience, and Counterbalance are just some of the things that hits. All of those are important for the decks that are running them.

Who cares if you don't kill the counterbalance if you know you've not only tapped them out but also put a 2 on top during their turn. That'll open the way up an opportunity to play another cost'd spell and maybe deal with it there.

Omniscience is interesting because, if their first spell isn't emrakul (and in some instances that will be fine as well), they'll probably only get just one spell. Just remember to kill it while that spell's on the stack. That would make the Show and Tell they cast, that much worse. Could you imagine them playing Burning Wish and then having to rethink their entire plan because you've already dealt with everything relevant in their hand?

Most will probably grab the other Snow and Tell but, that's one down and any extirpate will kill the deck at that point; where discard will reduce their copies to a remaining 2 (since all "virtual copies" are dead as well). I would say Magical Christmas Land would apply but the scenario is actually pretty plausible)

The -1/-1 ability is the most unfavorable. I've found out that there are very limited number's of decks that I actually want Zealous Persecution against (Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Belcher, etc) and when I play it, I typically wipe their board at a point that they don't want (Mom's dead, Team size drops dramatically, pact triggers to be paid, goblin Storm wasted, etc). So, Persecution has done wonders. One of the best parts was that it didn't hurt me. I mean, I've killed SFM with birds and kept the bird alive!

That's what I'll lose though. Against any deck where I'd want to case the charm. I run the possibility of losing 7 creatures (4 Bob + 1 Arbor + 1 Bird + 1 Tracker). That's not going to happen very often (if I ever play 4 Bobs, hit me. Although, I have played 3). I think I can live with losing those losses if I'm clearing Mom's and basically turning the tide to be very one sided.

The regen ability is a little more vague in it's application but, think of it this way. Nic Fit is a bad matchup if you can't kill them before they get to about 4 mana. At that point things start taking a drastic turn for the worse (lucky for us they like to fetch non-basics). Stopping them from getting there isn't actually a very possible thing as any Explorer will probably put them there or force us to use a Swords to keep swinging.

Why is it a bad match and progressively getting worse as they pile on more mana? The answer is because they have sweepers. Yes, playing around Wrath effects is part of magic but, how do we win vs another attrition based deck that +1's us? You can't really afford to play around the Wrath effects. So, instead of playing around them, I plan to have the ability to negate them. This works against EE as well.

I have to leave otherwise I'd let my long winded self keep going but I hope that answers your questions.

[lavafrogg]

I am a huge advocate of BGW loam lists, all of my lists are in past pages or on the aggro dirt thread in established. I'm at work now but I would live to talk about life from the loams.

[Dzra]

This is wrong and assuming that every deck with Brainstorm has the same funamental gameplan.

Playing a very heavy threat density (against the type of blue decks I'm assuming your talking about) works well because they lack the amount of creature removal to deal with the threat density. At a certain point, they run out of removal, while the aggro deck continues to draw creatures.

This is generally true. RUG, Stoneblade, and Miracles all have specific answers for creatures vs answers to spells. Their Brainstorms are most effective when they are shipping back extra lands or poor answers for the decks they are facing.


Miracles works well against heavy threat density decks like Maverick because it has enough removal to deal with their threats, and has a sufficient amount of card advantage to make sure they have more answers than the aggro deck can play creatures. Terminus hits multiple guys, giving the deck virtually more removal spells while at the same time providing card advantage. Counterbalance can gain incrimental card advantage over the course of the game, despite not being able to "lock" Maverick out, which is all it really needs Counterbalance to do in the first place.

Miracles is a little different than RUG and Stoneblade in that it gives up tempo advantage for more MD removal (ie Terminus). To make up for more anti-creature based clunkiness, they use Counterbalance as an ultra-efficient way to deal with the stack. Miracles is likely going to need to BS away their Counterbalance against decks like Maverick. Against the typical Junk build though, Counterbalance can still be very live. Abrupt Decay is an amazing answer for everything from RUG to Maverick to Miracles.


Junk works well against Brainstorm decks, I'm not sure why you feel the opposite. Disrupting them proactively is one of the best ways to attack a reactive blue deck, actually. Again, not all blue decks with Brainstorm are the same. Discard is universally good against reactive blue spells, but something like land destruction is great against a mana hungry deck like Miracles and worse against an efficient deck like RUG Delver. Regardless, the mult-angle attack is still extremely effective and synergetic. Attacking the opponents hand forces them to commit threats to the board in order to not lose them, which then get destroyed by the permanent removal.

I generally am not too afraid of Junk decks because they always feel rather clunky. Deal with a couple Bobs and a couple KotR and they are spinning their wheels. Discard really shines (for Junk) when it's able to further strain a deck's threat-removing resources. To win, their Dazes and Swords need to 1-for-1 KotRs, not Thoughtseizes.


The only zones where there stuff is safe is on top of the library or in the graveyard. This deck can easily attack the graveyard postboard, so they are pretty much limited to effects like Brainstorm, Jace, and Top especially, to safeguard their stuff. The problem with relying on the top of the library is that reactive decks want their spells in hand so they can react with them and not on top of the library.

Even if you put a Blue deck in topdeck mode, they are going to be topdecking much better than Junk will. They key is having more threats than they have answers (and as opposed to Maverick which uses pure threat density, Junk uses Discard to help achieve that). Maverick can go into the late game just fine. Unless Junk has a Top or Bob out, they aren't going to survive drawing dead discard and Moxes.


As another example, let's say you attack Miracles manabase a bit. Instead of digging for lock pieces or whatever, they will be digging for land instead. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Cutting them off of flashing back Swords to Plowshares or casting Jace is nice.

This is another example where you are distracting your own game plan. By mid to late game, their GY is going to have plenty of options for Snapcaster targets. Do you want them flashing back their one Swords for your KotR and their one Spell Pierce for your Vindicate or do you want them flashing back their Swords on your KotR and having a GY full of Spell Pierces when you play your next threat?


On the flip side, let's say you blow up some Delver(s) and/or Goyf(s) (with removal, against RUG). Now instead of digging for countermagic to counter Junks creatures (since Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt are worthless at dealing with Junks creatures), they are digging for more creatures. This sort of distraction plays exactly into Junks gameplan. Resolving a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary after they resolve a 3/3 Mongoose is nice.

If RUG doesn't have the soft counters to stop your removal on their creatures then you are probably already winning. Abrupt Decay buys you enough time to land a bigger threat than they can handle. Vindicate is clunky.


I do agree with your assessment of blues flexibility and consistency, and overloading a blue player with a large threat density does work well against typical blue aggro/control decks like Stoneblade and RUG.

I think we generally agree, but I'm just not a fan of Junk playing the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none game. Junk doesn't have counters to protect their threats. Junk doesn't have cheap creatures and burn to race their opponents. Junk doesn't have the threat density of Maverick. Junk has discard and Junk has fatties. Discard paves the way for your threat to stick unopposed for a few turns and then you need to be able to finish the game before they start out-topdecking you.


I am a huge advocate of BGW loam lists, all of my lists are in past pages or on the aggro dirt thread in established. I'm at work now but I would live to talk about life from the loams.

I like the idea of Junk Loam and I'd probably start with a full set of KotR, Goyfs, Bobs, and Lingering Souls and move on from there.

[Sughayyer]

Wow, this thread almos went away from the first page! Let me Unearth it! (:p)

I got 2 copies of abrupt decay today on the pre-release! Now I need at least one more rawr

Anyway, I'd like to post 2 lists: one I discussed with a friend and the other one I brewed.

The first one is:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowhares
3 abrupt decay
2 maesltrom pulse
4 mother of runes
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
2 green sun's zenith

and 23 lands (the same ones...)

the second is:

3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 sylvan library

...and the same lands

I like the first one because it feels safer to play our guys with the mother of runes, witness is cool, ooze is great, and zenith is, well, zenith.

However the second list shines in my eyes because it is much more like the old tempo version. You'll see I cut liliana in both. I miss her, it is a great card, but I don't know what to cut to fit in her (all cards seem vital, and I was running a lot of 3cmc spells).

Changing the subject a bit, what do you think of vraska? Playable (of course, it would be a supoer-duper slooowww deck, lilianas, deeds, stalling a lot etc)?

[lavafrogg]

Well, with the first list I don't think you have enough creatures to justify the inclusion of mother of runes, especially without SFM or just straight up equipment. Without equipment, your 2/1 and 1/1 army will have a hard time killing anyone. She also seems very redundant with all of your discard, as you can use discard to clear the way for you dudes.

The second list, lacks any "engine" cards which help us win many of our matches. Without loam, planes walkers or any recursion engine you will have a hard time against other mid range plus decks, especially if you cannot stick a confidant.

With both of your lists you have 9 dedicated removal slots which also seems a little heavy.

But, both of the lists are smooth and look consistent, they just aren't my style with he speed of the format today.

That being said, does anyone think eternal witness is becoming better and better as the format does on? I have been thinking about a list with 4 witnesses main board to act as a super snapcaster and rebuy all of GBW powerful spells. The synergy is really high with life from the loam, Lilliana and the like. I will get a list up as soon as i can!

[Claymore]

Well, with the first list I don't think you have enough creatures to justify the inclusion of mother of runes, especially without SFM or just straight up equipment. Without equipment, your 2/1 and 1/1 army will have a hard time killing anyone. She also seems very redundant with all of your discard, as you can use discard to clear the way for you dudes.

Alternatively, Mothers plus Discard will definitely forge a path for the 4 KotRs and 3 Goyfs w/2 GSZ to fetch either one. Essentially the same assault game plan as Maverick.

I think 4 Witnesses is too many. You start to clog up your hand with 3cc 2/1's and you limit what you can revive, not to mention the slow speed of that play. The recursion is great for sure, but only if you can ensure that you're controlling the board or hand first.

Also, Vraska seems too high CC for this deck but I haven't played with this version of Rock. I'd worry about the deck's ability to protect her when she's on cool down from her Pulse, and she almost needs the Pernicious Deed (which isn't an autoinclude here) to wipe the board before pooping out 3 assassins.

[sdematt]

Maybe in the early to mid 2000's Vraska would be good in Rock. Unfortunately, I don't think a 5-CMC Planeswalker that doesn't do much for a while is good enough. Against most aggressive decks, they'll have enough creatures maybe to attack her. Her -3 is great, but I think the creatures dying doesn't matter much since they can just attack you instead.

I think maybe in Nic Fit it could be okay, but here, not so much.


-Matt

[Sughayyer]

When I mentioned vraska, it was, of course, not for these builds (and most builds we play around here). I was talking about a deck built around her. But I already dismissed it as too slow, losing easily to burns and combos.
Maybe next week I'll have all the decays and I'll (try to) play with a tempo version of bgw.

[sdematt]

Played against RUG tonight, and Abrupt Decay was VERY juicy.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I was talking about a deck built around her. But I already dismissed it as too slow, losing easily to burns and combos.

You know, Vraska would easily drop into the Legacy Death Cloud Rock deck. I've done some testing with it for modern and was somewhat pleased but am on other projects.

The thread for it here on Source is extremely old, but relied on such synergies as Stronghold + Shriekmaw for relentless removal against RUG/Maverick and then Loam + Cycling Lands and Planeswalkers vs control decks for endless card advantage. It always seemed to do well when reading tourny reports, not sure why the deck died off...

Overall her strategy is too far from this thread's Rock, but I think she can give other variants outside of Nic Fit a significant boost.

[Mirrislegend]

As I play and read here, my list evolves as does my understanding of how each card in the deck functions. This leads to new questions:

1) @daimon: How is it having only 4 discard spells? Seems like you'll be disappointed every game where you don't draw one in your opening hand. Also, combo must be a very hard matchup with only 4 discard (local combo players have come to fear my Hymns :cool: )

2) also @daimon: seeing as I've become disillusioned with Stoneforge, yes you are kinda the only one still playing it. I jumped ship because it's such a slow clock, to the point where I often lose games I was winning because I couldn't bash hard enough fast enough. Do you ever have speed issues? If not, how the hell do you do it?!

EDIT:
To those doubting Lingering Souls, you do have a point. It is counter to the more tempo construction of my current build. However, it has some undeniable uses: 1) With 3x Jitte in the deck, I must ENSURE that I always have a critter to carry it or Jitte becomes a dead draw. 2) It is technically card advantage. It's good to have card advantage (where's that "It's good to own land" picture?). 3) It is a hilarious answer to most classic control elements: LSouls drives planeswalkers, ESPECIALLY Jace and Lili, nuts; it keeps you from getting blown out by sweepers; it even keeps StP from blowing out your board.

[Deckerator]

I thougt about playing Rock with Stoneforge package but if everybody writes he is to slow maybe i should cut him.

If i would cut the Stoneforge package i have the following creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant