[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

What the rest of the deck look like? I can suggest Ooze, Qasali, Tracker.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

4 Confidant
2 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
2 LSouls

3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
3 jitte
3 mix diamond
1 sylv lib
1 sdt

23 land

SB:
3 timely reinforcements
3 Thalia
3 ee
4 extirpate
1 teeg
1 choke

[Sughayyer]

@Mirri
I liked it. Have you tested?

[damionblackgear]

1) @daimon: How is it having only 4 discard spells? Seems like you'll be disappointed every game where you don't draw one in your opening hand. Also, combo must be a very hard matchup with only 4 discard (local combo players have come to fear my Hymns :cool: )
With only 4 discard spells it's not as often as most people'd like but, I take a different stance on them using removal and counters than most. It also helps with my understanding of the function of a counter.

Say for instance, I play Library, and they destroy it. I've paid 2 mana to have them lose 1 (unless forced or gsz'd for pridemage) card. That means, I got a chance to play a 5th counter. I'm built in a way that you're able to function without any particular aspect of the 75 so their counter and their removal are forms of discard for me. It's part of the reason I play into some counters knowing that they're there.

The combo match-up is hard pre-board (non-snt). That's what the 3 Thalia and extra duress are meant to help with. It's not that I think It's an amazing match-up, but, it's not the worst either.

With decay, the Belcher match-up will get worse since the slot I'm looking at replacing is the one that deals with Tokens, Pulse.


2) also @daimon: seeing as I've become disillusioned with Stoneforge, yes you are kinda the only one still playing it. I jumped ship because it's such a slow clock, to the point where I often lose games I was winning because I couldn't bash hard enough fast enough. Do you ever have speed issues? If not, how the hell do you do it?!

I've never had issues with closing, regardless of Mystic or not.

I play to a mid-late game. My plan from turn 1 is to take the game there. That's the point where Knight really gets to shine; where Liliana is a beast; where Green Sun Zenith has the potential to be it's strongest (you have the mana to play it for whatever you need).

Because my goal is that later point in the game vs most decks, I'm already ready to lose everything else along the way. It also means I've been able to prep for the things that are coming. I get a bonus from knowing so much of play styles and the decks that I usually know, to a pretty good accuracy rate, what's in my opponents hand without a discard spell. That helps a lot as well.

Eventually, she'll get cut from my list. That won't happen until I feel there's a reason to though. Decay is not a reason, but more of a reason (Batterskull's will live longer).

[lavafrogg]

Deathrite shaman is up a dollar! Get them now before they break 10!

[Stuuch]

Deathrite shaman is up a dollar! Get them now before they break 10!

Is someone paying you for hyping that card?

[Mirrislegend]

@ daimon: I VERY much understand what you mean about baiting counterspells. The problem is, baiting and interacting with counterspells takes time. And in that time, RUG eats your face. Yes an endgame Batterskull can change it all. But by that time, they've cantripped into the one last couterspell they need for your last ditch effort

@ deathrite shaman: is there any testing/ concrete evidence of the playability? Until then, please chillax.

@ Sug: yes some testing. In all honesty, everything in it is perfect, except for one major major thing: half the time I draw Goyf, I wish it was Lingering Souls. And half the time I draw Lingering Souls, I wish it was Goyf. It would be vey humorous if it wasn't so irritating!

[sdematt]

Mirri,

I was going to say you should try a split 2/2 of Goyf and Souls instead of 3/3, but it turns out you're already on 2/2 :P

3 Jittes seems excessive, why not 2 Jitte and 2 Sylvan?

I'm not sure what to tell you regarding LS and Goyf. Both are good, but in different matchups.

My suggestion:

4 Confidant
3 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
15
3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
2 jitte
3 mix diamond
2 sylv lib
1 sdt
22

23 land

SB:
2 timely reinforcements
3 Thalia
2 EE
4 extirpate
1 teeg
1 choke
2 Lingering Souls

Souls you're probably wanting in the long game, so why not bring it in against Uw from the board?

Where are you going to fit in Abrupt Decays?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

3 Jitte because it gets destroyed and countered pretty consistently. I would consider going to 2 if I didn't have LSouls (Souls are BERZERK good with equipment, so the equipment must stick in play to maximize the value of LSouls).

LSouls has huge value against all major archetypes except combo, hence it's MD. It's especially murder against RUG. Given that RUG is possibly the most popular deck of today, LSouls justifies it's use very often

Fitting in Abrupt Decay is certainly a concern. Not sure at the moment.

[Sughayyer]

@matt
I see you suggested 5 1cc discards + 3 hymn. Did you test it? Is it effective? I never tried, but it seems interesting - the fact is that I'm a total moron when it comes to statistics.

[sdematt]

I played this configuration (6 +3, but whatever) last year, but I was just tweaking Mirri's list. I haven't tried it recently, but I'm running 6 1-CMc main, 3 Hymn in the board.

-MAtt

[sdematt]

Any other news/ updates? /Bored and sitting in the library.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Umm, RtR comes out tomorrow?

[sdematt]

Don't you technically mean today, depending on the timezone? :P

Who has their set of Decays yet?

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I missed the decay preorder when they were cheap...sadface, so I will have to get mine the old fashioned way, beating up little kids.

[lavafrogg]

From Drew Levin on SCG:

"I don't think this is better than Noble Hierarch in aggressive decks. I do think this is better than Birds of Paradise once you're playing ten or more fetchlands. There are enough good reasons to play ten-plus fetchlands that you should end up playing Shaman over Birds regardless. Perhaps the best thing that Shaman will end up doing to Legacy is forcing people to consider every angle of their mana base. How much value can we squeeze out of the cards we choose to put in our deck? Deathrite Shaman is not just a good card—it forces us to consider the game from more angles."

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Bone Shredder
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mesmeric Fiend

Instants
4 Brainstorm

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Jarad's Orders

Lands
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I do not have much faith in this decklist but he could be onto something.

Matt- Why haven't you started playing around with the future of The Rock-Dethrite Shaman? So much amazing in just one card.

[Sughayyer]

Ahhh I am way unsure about the correct (or better) aproach in today's meta.... I know the aggro MU seems not a concern, since our board control has really improved. But I still need to hit my head on the wall a few more times to choose if I'll run 6 1cmc discards, 4/4, wether to make room (or not) to liliana, use sfm package (thus freeing a few hate cards from the side, like e. Plague) etc...

I know it's just rambling and maybe it got hard to understand, but I had to let it out....

[Hanni]

My only beef with Shaman in The Rock, is the fact that you want lands in your own graveyard for Knight of the Reliquary.

In regards to Shaman as a mana dork... the deck won't need Shaman's mana ability past the first few turns more often than not, so as long as the deck has enough fetches, it should easily satisify Shaman as a mana dork.

Once the game gets past the early turns, Shaman is easily the best mana dork you can draw into (even moreso than Hierarch), since you don't want to be drawing into mana dorks at that point anyway.

[lavafrogg]

My only beef with Shaman in The Rock, is the fact that you want lands in your own graveyard for Knight of the Reliquary.

In regards to Shaman as a mana dork... the deck won't need Shaman's mana ability past the first few turns more often than not, so as long as the deck has enough fetches, it should easily satisify Shaman as a mana dork.

Once the game gets past the early turns, Shaman is easily the best mana dork you can draw into (even moreso than Hierarch), since you don't want to be drawing into mana dorks at that point anyway.

I have not had the slightest problem with the Shaman-Knight interaction, if you are playing a knight mirror than your knight will always be bigger, if you are not playing a knight mirror than your knight will be the biggest guy on the field and continue to grow through his ability.

The only creatures bigger than knight will be from aggro loam and the Shaman is great against them anyways!

[Tormod]

Working on a junk deck.

I have a question for those experienced with goyf and kotr. The deck I'm working on is running 4 Bob, 4 goyf, 2 ooze, 3 sfm + 3 lingering souls.

Is it "wrong" to not play with kotr? I'm trying to keep the curve super low.

[sdematt]

Knight is essentially a big 3-mana Planeswalker that searches up Wastelands and corrects your mana, and at some point attacks for a lot. He's pretty darn good. He's your best creature/Planeswalker.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Is it "wrong" to not play with kotr? I'm trying to keep the curve super low.

Wrong? No. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that most of us would call it ill advised but, by no means does that make it wrong. Just make sure that whatever you're doing in her place is worth it.

Also, keep testing IT and other ITs until you find something you like.

[lavafrogg]

Not using knight of the reliquary would be like choosing to not use socks. You will get the job done with whatever you choose to use, but you will smell afterwards.

[Mirrislegend]

While we're on the topic of not playing Knight of the Reliquary, I have to bring up this odd idea I had recently:

While pondering how to fit Abrupt Decay into my very tight list, it occurred to me that I may be able to replace one or two Swords to Plowshares with it (maybe not the MOST optimal) but it would totally work. I realized that if I changed StP to AD, then the only white left in my MD is Knight. Knight has a non-white replacement available too. Terravorre doesn't tutor, but it does beat a lot harder and a lot better.

By dropping white, the deck gets a LOT more aggro. If you're already playing a highly aggressive build, I think this may be worth testing. I seriously considered it. Then I remembered that I love my SB full of white cards too much.

[KobeBryan]

While we're on the topic of not playing Knight of the Reliquary, I have to bring up this odd idea I had recently:

While pondering how to fit Abrupt Decay into my very tight list, it occurred to me that I may be able to replace one or two Swords to Plowshares with it (maybe not the MOST optimal) but it would totally work. I realized that if I changed StP to AD, then the only white left in my MD is Knight. Knight has a non-white replacement available too. Terravorre doesn't tutor, but it does beat a lot harder and a lot better.

By dropping white, the deck gets a LOT more aggro. If you're already playing a highly aggressive build, I think this may be worth testing. I seriously considered it. Then I remembered that I love my SB full of white cards too much.

at taht point, you can just play eva green.

[Deckerator]

I saw in some sideboards of you Thalia.
When do you board her in and for what because this deck plays many noncreature
spells..in fact.of this you will slow yourself a lot.

[damionblackgear]

I saw in some sideboards of you Thalia.
When do you board her in and for what because this deck plays many noncreature
spells..in fact.of this you will slow yourself a lot.

We're already slow (which is why I keep wondering why people complain about stoneforge but, meh.)

Thalia is for the decks that are attempting to play "Unfairly" (Combo mainly). She typically buys us the time we need.

[Hanni]

While we're on the topic of not playing Knight of the Reliquary, I have to bring up this odd idea I had recently:

While pondering how to fit Abrupt Decay into my very tight list, it occurred to me that I may be able to replace one or two Swords to Plowshares with it (maybe not the MOST optimal) but it would totally work. I realized that if I changed StP to AD, then the only white left in my MD is Knight. Knight has a non-white replacement available too. Terravorre doesn't tutor, but it does beat a lot harder and a lot better.

By dropping white, the deck gets a LOT more aggro. If you're already playing a highly aggressive build, I think this may be worth testing. I seriously considered it. Then I remembered that I love my SB full of white cards too much.

Well, if you can effectively cut white without sacrificing that much, have you considered splashing blue for just Brainstorm and Daze, or red for just Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt?

BUG and Jund would both be valuable splashes, and you if you were able to accommodate a white splash before, I don't see why this would be a problem...

[lavafrogg]

The problem with BUG and Jund is that they turn into two decks that already exist, BUG leads way to team American and Jund will turn into Zoo, unless of course you just splashed for Bolts but then you would have no way to deal with a large creature that wasn't a 3 mana sorcery(i guess abrupt decay). The reach provided by burn lend to a faster zoo like deck that wants early removal and late game reach.

My deathrite shamans are in the mail and I cannot wait to sleeve them up! The card is so much more effective than I have even imagined. You get to live the dream and mana ramp to you hearts content almost every other game. The rest of the time he is a life sucking monster!

[sdematt]

So you've been actively testing him?

-Matt

[Hanni]

The problem with BUG and Jund is that they turn into two decks that already exist, BUG leads way to team American and Jund will turn into Zoo, unless of course you just splashed for Bolts but then you would have no way to deal with a large creature that wasn't a 3 mana sorcery(i guess abrupt decay). The reach provided by burn lend to a faster zoo like deck that wants early removal and late game reach.

How so?

I wasn't suggesting Force of Will in a blue splash. Brainstorm is just a good overall card that every deck in the format can benefit from, aside from maybe Dredge. Daze might be a bad suggestion, but the additional tempo with mana dorks and Wasteland sounded interesting. Team America does not have the heavy threat density his deck has; it's primarily a blue-based aggro/control deck. That's not what I was suggesting.

In the Jund version, he has Abrupt Decay to deal with larger creatures. If you take a look at the format, most of the creatures right now have an ass that is smaller than 3. The extra 1cc removal would not only make his list more aggressive at killing creatures, it would give him reach in the midgame.

I was also asking him if he had considered the splashes if he goes straight G/B. I wasn't saying that it was something that was necessary.

[lavafrogg]

Matt- I have been playing the crap out of Deathrite Shaman and he is awesome! He gives you a great boost in the maverick, RUG, and Stoneblade/Miracle Matchup. He helps in the fast aggro match ups especially due to the fact that I am almost back in the SFM and equipment club due to the extra bodies and the Shaman/Goyf interaction.

In the control match ups: you will draw more than one, and they will kill your opponent.

The Shaman/Knight problem is almost non-existant with lands aplenty found in graveyards when you have an active knight.

Finally, the mana ability is extremely relevant as a fixer and in tempo positive situations. You cannot rely on a shaman to power your mana base but when you are being wastelanded, stifled, or just have a fetch land hand, he is awesome at the early game mana dork role.

Hanni- I am sure that you can play BGx with x being red or blue, but I feel that you would be sacrificing match ups with top decks in doing so. The 1cc of swords to plowshares helps rock decks interact on so many levels. Having access to red sweepers would be awesome against swarm aggro, but we play 2/1's and 1/2's that we don't want to kill.

With the blue splash for brainstorm and spell pierce out of the board, sounds good, you have no way to interact with an early lackey or mother of ruins and are relying on a 2cc spell to kill 2cc threats like SFM, goyf or confidant. If you stuck with the blue splash you could add daze to help counter the early threats and then you would be 4x force of wills away from a decent blue card count for force. You also lose ways to deal with re-animators threats after they resolve, swords on a griselbrand has saved me in a few games as has swordsing their silver bullets. See also: tombstalker.

If you go the red splash you retain the ability to kill mom's and lackey's but severely limit yourself in your answer opposing knights and goyfs. I feel this is a better call than the blue splash because you can use terminate or the new "terminate" but I would much rather be the guy playing knights than the guy answering them.

If you are going to cut white for a straight green black list you have to realize how vulnerable terravore actually is to all forms of hate. He dies to an early ooze or even to a knighted up bog, RIP also means he cannot even enter play. GB with goyfs and bobs or goyfs and tomb-stalkers are good but once your stalkers are plowed and the ground is gummed up you have no way to deal with any real threats.

You will get there from time to time but I like options.

May I suggest trying one of the new grisly salvage decks, they look very promising in the way turn three tomb stalkers should appear.

[Hanni]

Hanni- I am sure that you can play BGx with x being red or blue, but I feel that you would be sacrificing match ups with top decks in doing so.

My comment was in response to Mirrislegend, who was considering cutting white and going with a G/b version. I'm not trying to say a blue or red splash is better than a white splash. You misinterpreted the point of my comment, I think.

In the case of the blue splash, yes you lose the 1cc removal maindeck against swarm aggro like Goblins. He loses that with straight G/b too. On the flip side, both the combo and control matchups get significantly better.

In the case of the red splash, he still retains Abrupt Decay to deal with bigger creatures.

Again, I'm not trying to say G/b, G/b/u, or G/b/r are better than G/b/w. I'm not saying they are worse, either. I was only asking Mirrislegend if he had considered those splashes, if he decides to cut white and go G/b.

[lavafrogg]

Hey, sorry for giving my opinion on why the loss of knight and swords are not worth it without changing the deck completely.

[Hanni]

Hey, sorry for giving my opinion on why the loss of knight and swords are not worth it without changing the deck completely.

No need to apologize my friend, I was just letting you know what the point of my post was.

For what it's worth, I agree with you, that both Swords and Knight are the better approach.

[lavafrogg]

What do you think about all of the GB salvage decks that are popping up?

[Hanni]

What do you think about all of the GB salvage decks that are popping up?

I think Grisly Salvage may have some potential in decks that want cards in the graveyard, but a 2cc cantrip isn't where this deck wants to be.

Some sort of Zombie deck might want Salvage, although I think Faithless Looting + Squee offers those decks a much better engine. Could be useful in some sort of Loam strategy, although I don't know that it's effect is necessary there either.

Not really sure, to be honest. Haven't put alot of thought into finding a deck that makes use of the card. If it grabbed a land and a creature, I'd be all over it. It's only a cantrip though, and a pretty limiting one at that.

[lavafrogg]

I think Grisly Salvage may have some potential in decks that want cards in the graveyard, but a 2cc cantrip isn't where this deck wants to be.

Some sort of Zombie deck might want Salvage, although I think Faithless Looting + Squee offers those decks a much better engine. Could be useful in some sort of Loam strategy, although I don't know that it's effect is necessary there either.

Not really sure, to be honest. Haven't put alot of thought into finding a deck that makes use of the card. If it grabbed a land and a creature, I'd be all over it. It's only a cantrip though, and pretty limiting.

Definitely not for this deck, I think one of the lists will be viable though. Hopefully with necrotic ooze and vengevine...

This was just posted in the Maverick thread:


HI,

what do you think about a black splash. I think now with Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay it is an option. So i tested a new version with black on our little local tournament this weekend (30 Players) and ended 3rd place.

here is the decklist:

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Birds of Paradise

SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg


I found it really good. Deathrite Shaman was together with bob mvp.

Thoughts?

They are taking our tech!! lol.

The list seems off though.

[Sughayyer]

They are simply realizing that black gives the deck more options.
I'm still not convinced about shaman.

[lavafrogg]

Sug, try this for a creature base on a list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

along with 4 Green Sun's Zeniths, some equipment and whatever else you want to add.

I am going back and forth between the other cards but this is what I have with right now.

[Rigero]

Definitely not for this deck, I think one of the lists will be viable though. Hopefully with necrotic ooze and vengevine...

This was just posted in the Maverick thread:


HI,

what do you think about a black splash. I think now with Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay it is an option. So i tested a new version with black on our little local tournament this weekend (30 Players) and ended 3rd place.

here is the decklist:

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Birds of Paradise

SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg


I found it really good. Deathrite Shaman was together with bob mvp.

Thoughts?

They are taking our tech!! lol.

The list seems off though.


Hi,

well this is my list and i was thinking about posting it in the Rock thread, but i think that Rock is much more controlling and playing more diruption, where my deck is very creaturebased and just plays discard in the sideboard.

[Fakedylan]

Followed this thread for a while without posting. I've been playing Canadian Threshold for a while now but at heart I enjoy Black decks. Before Thresh played B/w Control variants for quite sometime and most recently decided Junk/Rock is where I want to be. Been working on a list that I plan on taking to some local casual tournaments. Seems off but I'm liking the options Deathrite and Abrupt Decay are giving to the Rock lists.

Here's the list I'm working on it's nowhere near to the final product it's going to need a lot more testing. I'm open to whatever suggestions this forum has, I feel like the player base here has a very good understanding of the overall meta game.


Creatures : 14
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage

Spells : 22
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls

Lands : 24
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard : 15
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Serenity
1 Thoughtseize
1 Oblivion Ring

One thing I'm going to really need to test is Thalia and how much of a problem she could be concerning our own spells. With Deathrite it seems to off set the problem slightly but only testing will show. I'll try to come back with results and changes if I make any noteworthy progress.

[Mr. Safety]

My impression of Deathrite Shaman isn't whether to play him or not, but whether or not you want 4 for mana-ramp consistency or 1 in a GSZ package for gy-hate/reach.

GSZ has been such a strong focal point in almost all green-flavored decks. The only ones that don't really play it are fast zoo and slower BUG/Control lists (Intuition/Loam, The Mind Harvester, etc.) I think that Deathrite Shaman might be the card needed to start pulling away from GSZ as a neccessary element in Rock/Junk decks. Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman with black or green seems slightly better than GSZ for 0 to fetch Dryad Arbor. It diversifies your mana as well as Birds of Paradise but doesn't get useless after you get 3 lands onto the battlefield. I'm a big fan of Deathrite Shaman...but I haven't done a lot of serious testing yet, only about 7-8 games.

[Sughayyer]

Right now I'm testing the following list (I'm gonna use it next friday)

3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
4 dark confidant
4 goyf
4 reliquary
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
2 liliana otv
1 garruk relentless

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 wastelands
8 fetches

got easily thru most decks.... But lost miserably to a junk loam that ran chalice of the void (I kinda liked that, maybe I'll try out someday)

on my doubt about wether or not to run mox: mox laughes hard at canadian, team america (tempo) and lands. And I remembered how great liliana was when I tested the build that didn't ran her ;p

on deathrite shaman: not sold on him at all

[OCPunisher]

@Fakedylan: Couple thoughts about your list:
- You have 1 MD Ooze and Pridemage each, which suggests a Green Sun's toolbox, but then you don't have any Zeniths. That seems a little contradictory.
- Furthermore, the Ooze has a lot of overlap with your four Shamans and your Bojuka Bog. The Pridemage has similar overlap with your Vindicates and Abrupt Decays.
- You have a lot of small bodies (Shamans, Bobs, Lingering Souls) that could benefit from picking up a Jitte when they eventually attack.

So, in summary, I'd go +2 Jitte, -1 Ooze, -1 Pridemage.

[lavafrogg]

Creatures : 14
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage

Spells : 22
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls

Lands : 24
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard : 15
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Serenity
1 Thoughtseize
1 Oblivion Ring



Welcome to the source!

I love the use of deathrite shaman and here are some things I learned:

1: Abrupt decay is an awesome 1 of main 2-3 of board card. It is awesome against rug and counterbalance but cannot replace swords or vindicate/pulse completely. Jace and batter skull are real cards and 9 pieces of removal is a bit much pre board.

2. Deathrite shaman and lingering souls love to pick up equipment. Either raw dogged or fetched with a mystic.

3. I think not running 4 GSZ is wrong, and that is debatable, but I'm almost positive you should be running at least 1-2 to fetch the ooze and pridemage you run.

The problem with GBW is that there are so many ways you can take your deck and so many good cards you can run.

[Fakedylan]

Great feedback guys this is why I love The Source. I agree with pretty much everything said concerning my list. I think the hardest thing will be finding a balance between cards like Shaman vs. GSZ ( this cards so strong it's what makes Maverick imo): As well as how many Abrupt Decays are necessary. I do like the idea of having 1 in the sideboard 2 in main in reference to Abrupt Decay. I have not played with Maverick but I get the general idea and as others have pointed out that The Rock is becoming possibly a hybrid (Junk/Maverick). I find it exciting that Maverick might be able to transition into a 3 color deck playing Black.

As for the list I agree with the cutting of Pridemage and Ooze for a Jitte or 2. Going to try that out along with 1 less Abrupt though I'm not sure what would be best in that spot.

[Mr. Safety]

Is it just me or is Qasali Pridemage underwhelming to most folks lately? I remember when it was the shit, but lately I haven't really wanted to see it much. Even when I can GSZ >>> Pridemage I find myself going for Ooze, Goyf, Knight, Eternal Witness, Deathrite Shaman, basically anything besides Pridemage. I'm putting my singleton Pridemage to the sideboard for now.

Anybody else have a similar experience?

[damionblackgear]

Is it just me or is Qasali Pridemage underwhelming to most folks lately? I remember when it was the shit, but lately I haven't really wanted to see it much. Even when I can GSZ >>> Pridemage I find myself going for Ooze, Goyf, Knight, Eternal Witness, Deathrite Shaman, basically anything besides Pridemage. I'm putting my singleton Pridemage to the sideboard for now.

Anybody else have a similar experience?

I was. There's a second Goyf (Go stare contest champ!) in it's place and I've completely cut it at this point.

[Hanni]

If you're running GSZ, I see no reason why you wouldn't run at least 1 Qasali in the MD as a tutor target, because you never know when you're going to run into something like an Ensnaring Bridge or Jitte or something.

For those without GSZ... yea, I'd definitely cut it. Horrible beater, and Abrupt Decay is much more versatile.

[sdematt]

He's LESS useful now that we have Abrupt Decay, but I've found him VERY handy at blowing up stuff like Shackles, Equipment, etc.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

As a 4 GSZ player, I have ooze/teeg/pridemage sharing 2 slots and sideboard the one I don't feel like would be te strongest.

[Claymore]

I find Pridemage is useful to fill holes in the deck's removal suite. If you don't have a lot of Deeds or extra Pulses/Decays/Vindicates then he can definitely be good, but generally there just aren't a lot of must-answer art/enchantment threats out there.
I (Nic Fit) ended up putting the Pridemage in the sideboard because I just never GSZ'd for it and anything else I could answer easily with Deeds or Pulses.

Yes, you have Omniscience/Sneak, but if that drops then you're dead anyway.

I put Teeg in its place and have Ooze and Pridemage sideboard.

With Rest In Peace around, however, I think it definitely needs to stay in the 75.

[lavafrogg]

Sometimes assholes play things that we don't like. That is why I will most likely always play pridemage in the main, with him GSZ can now kill a counterbalance, and dodge the balance lock, and he can be fetched to kill any artifact/enchantment any rouge deck plays. Don't forget about jitte and its brethren which are must answers for any creature deck.

[Sughayyer]

If you have volrath's stronghold, your qasali gains a lot of value, since he can replace a decay/pulse (sort of) and you gain recursion.

On shaman: it IS worth testing. In a build without tarmogoyf. Maybe... Bg?

I did more tests with the last build I posted. So far, I lost to bgw loam, bug pernicious deed liliana jace control, and esper stoneblade (that one was really close, g1 I finished him quick, the other 2 weren't SO hard).
Won against all other decks tested, including merfolks, goblins, bant, ant

[damionblackgear]

I'm also coming around to shaman thanks to some modern testing. I've only got 1 slot though which changes its pros/cons.

If you've only got 1 then you're looking to GSZ for it which means that if you're searching on the first turn for it, you've got a land in the yard already (from diamond) so it's live at that point. If you're playing it on the the first turn, you've not only their turn, but also your own draw to find a fetch. The risks aren't that large compared to the benefits of having another life-gain source. The "Burn" is actually a useful bonus (although I wish it was 2 damage).

[Sughayyer]

Altough I assume shaman MAY be ineresting, I can't find space for him on my deck. I rather enjoy the 6 discards and 10 removals (pretty much nothing stays in the field, liliana and garruk can also fulfill the "removal" role when needed).
But, in the matches I lost on my testings, it was due to lack of threats...

[lavafrogg]

Sug-10 slots for removal is a lot preboard, it is fine in some match ups post board if you feel you need to go that way. If you need more threats you can probably find some spots there.

I have a few questions and then some matchup improvements with the Deathrite Shaman/SFM build I have been testing.

1. Has anyone thought about replacing the vindicate/pulse slot completely with Abrupt Decay? The goal is to just decay anything that moves and keep counterbalances/jittes off of the table.

This leaves some problems: 7 slots of slot removal where I would want 4 swords and 3 EE/pulse/catch-all answers. I really do not like not having an answer for a jace other than creatures/mana denial/board control. It scares me. The pro is that all of your removal is now instant and you gain a great leg up in blue match ups where they want to counter your removal. This could leave the decays in the board for blue decks where they would shine.

2. Anyone else notice that cabal therapy is picking up steam as viable disruption? With show and tell as pretty much the big dog around town the double therapy play hurts the one trick pony pretty bad. Could give more merit to the players who love lingering souls.

3. Is anyone else on the Deathrite Train yet? I have been testing like mad against the DTB at the moment and have these comments to make: The following list is in order of biggest impact to least impact...

Delver: Shaman is a must kill against RUG in that they will never receive threshold, goyfs will never grow large and the life gain can keep us out of burn/delver range until the rest of our decks can snap into action. He negates their mana denial by eating lands in graveyards for fun and profit. Can pay for daze tax.

Maverick: Knights are now a non-factor, waste lands are minimized, he can keep adjusting life totals until the game is over. Reduces the number of threats in their deck to the equipment and a mother of ruins supported weenie swarm.

Goblins: He blocks lackeys on turn one, gains life as the game goes on and reduces the effect of wasteland mana denial allowing us to keep playing spells while under duress. Picks up equipment.

Blade: Stops snapcaster from abusing the graveyard, also will cause enough life loss if not answered. Picks up equipment.
Miracles: Stops snapcaster from abusing the graveyard, also will cause enough life loss if not answered. Picks up equipment.

Show and Tell: Accelerates disruption and keeps tempo going off of wastelands.

Obviously he does worse against some decks but he is a positive asset and improvement to the deck over any other option.

He is playing very nice with stoneforge mystic in that he helps hard cast equipment when the mystic gets killed.

In addition current list:


Creatures: 17
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 extirpate
3 choke
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile

The abrupt decays took my slots over more discard, which has caused me to move teeg back to the main to help against the evil combo devil.

[Sughayyer]

@lavafrogg
in the end, it falls into playing styles, I guess. I had ridiculously easy MUs against rug, team america, goblins, combo decks, etc. I think the 2 losses over 18 matches is ok....

However, I am willing to give up 2 removal slots to test shaman (maybe in a few weeks), but adding shamans means giving up on goyves. Then, sfm + batter is definitely a must.
On a side note, i must give in to matt: garruk is much better than elspeth - he does more than her in terms of usefullness in this deck.

[sdematt]

Told you :P

-Matt

[Hanni]

I'm against Liliana in this deck because the discard is symmetrical. I like Liliana in Loam decks, and I even like her in Pox decks. In here, I just don't see why you'd run her over more efficient options.

Regarding the Planeswalker issue, I agree that Garruk is better... but I'm talkin big boy Garruk (Garruk, Primal Hunter). If you're running GSZ/Arbor/mana dorks, ramping up to 5 mana shouldn't be a problem in the matchups where you want Planeswalkers, and his effects are far more devastating (in an aggro deck) than any other Planeswalker printed, including Jace TMS.

[Sughayyer]

@hanni
I don't understand, the last list you posted had 22 lands and no basics (no mox/acceleration also). And you want a 5 cmc planeswalker, and abusing double blacks and double greens.

Garruk relentless provides removal (yeah, I'm riding on the "no permantens stay on that side of the board" train), provides a stream of beaters, and if he is flipped, he is simply fantastic. 1/1 deathtouch critters, mini-survival, and overrun. He is also easy to cast: only one green mana.

I do not need to argue about liliana. Read a few pages back and you'll see the discard is not SO symmetrical. Also, free edicts :cool:

[Hanni]

No no, you misunderstand me. I was talkin about Rock in general, not the list I posted. Garruk doesn't fit into my list at all. I was talkin about Maverick/b, or in other words, the lists with GSZ and Arbor/mana dorks.

[lavafrogg]

I don' think the Maverick/b lists can reliably get to 5 mana with 3 of it being green in any reasonable amount of time...As awesome as dumping 3/3's, 6/6's and drawing tons of cards would be. I just do not think it is feasible.

[lavafrogg]

p.s. I added the scryb ranger to my list as a flyer, delver blocker, and shaman untapper. I burned out a jace player in two turns out of nowhere...

play deathrite shaman. pass turn.

my turn: scryb ranger.

drain for four pass turn.

drain for two.

drain for four, gg?

Awesome.

[Sughayyer]

I'm not sure if shaman's ability can be redirected to a planesalker, sice it says "each opp loses 2 life" rather than "this deals 2 dmg to target opp"
frog, I understand your list now, it's basically maverick with black. Can't you fit discards in? I personally love them: they give you valuable information.

[Sughayyer]

Ok reviewing the post for mistakes (posting from cellphone) i understand what you did with shaman.

[AggroSteve]

quite intresting move with shaman, actually this was the last drop needed in the barrel for him to really catch my attention as i did not even think of the interaction between shaman and ranger
awesome interaction and maybe shaman is just the thing i was looking for, because in heavy attrition battles i hoped for a little bit of reach, and this little guy may provide this, plus he would help against goblins, a matchups i somehow still struggle (my list should be really fine against that deck, maybe its just my bad luck)

[sdematt]

How many Scryb Ranger are you running?

I think Deathrite Shaman is an interesting card, for sure. But, I can't see myself running more than one, possibly two. Why?

1) It's a bit different than Ooze, since you get value out of mucking instants and sorceries beyond their ability to be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage. This is the main reason I like him, in addition to the mana ability. Early on, this mana ability is pretty god awful, especially if you're trying to power up your own Knight and they don't drop many lands in the bin.

2) How many do you run to achieve maximal value out of this card? I can foresee a cool Shaman build, but what are you cutting to fit this card in? In my mind, something like 1-2 Scryb Ranger and 1-2 Deathrite Shaman seems like a cool thing, considering the ability to also get greasy with Ranger and Knight. However, what are you removing? It seems like at that point, you're cutting Maelstrom Pulses (so your curve comes down) or you're cutting discard and other stuff. This is not where I personally want to be in a meta with a combo presence. The ability to durdle with Shaman and make them lose life without having to enter combat is definitely a thing, I would agree.

I think if you wanted to run Shaman, you should basically be running:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
(you may want to run another Fetchland just in case, but whatever)
23

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
18

4 Open (Equipment? Planeswalker? Discard?)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library

Basically, you cut discard and a Qasali for your new creature package, which I definitely think might not be bad. I just don't want to water down either package to the point where neither is effective; I'd much rather have either one or the other. For me, I wouldn't want to now just jam 1 Scryb Ranger and 1 Deathrite Shaman and take out 2 random cards because at that point, it's probably not going to work out. I agree Scryb is good, I've played him in Maverick, but is that what we're going for? Pro-blue is definitely a thing, and so is Flash in, untap big guy, block your dude, or crazy combat tricks with him and Tracker.

I guess is just depends on what you want to do. I think this would be better in a creature-based meta, especially concerning the Scrybs, but discard can be VERY good as well.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Why do I insist in running at least 6 discard spells? (I was running 8 before)

Because it DOES make the combo match a lot easier. A correct discard on turn 1 followed by a goyf immediately rises a red flag for the combo player. It also makes the burn match winnable. Also, I don't run thalia, gaddok, etc, and don't miss them.

Wich is to say, I truly respect the usefulness of Shaman, but he is incompatible with things like goyf for example. Also, there is not enough room for the discard spells. And we'll need something big to put quickly on the field (we want to end the game fast, I assume). That's a lot of slots (and a turn 2 reliquary ramped by shaman is as useful as a glory seeker or a grizzly bear).

If we have to rely in tricks like taxing and forbiddance (like thalia and teeg) to get around combo and control, we should drop the black altogether, and go full gw. W'ell get more value from a build that relies more in creatures that way, if that is the premise of the deck.

I know I am very stubborn too :tongue: but right now I'm very happy with my list. Tomorrow is going to be the great day, so wish me well!

[lavafrogg]

You sound like me when I was arguing the validity of goyf+discard over SFM against combo decks. I feel that reanimate/sneak and show/storm was everywhere at that time. Now with the rise of blue decks again you really have less combo decks to fight against.

I am losing my previous combo plan but I play teeg and 4x GSZ along with 4 thoughtsieze and 4 wasteland( and 3 Lilliana) so the combo matchup is more uphill than play discard and goyf + pray. Post board I'm picking up the ability to play cabal therapy with my increased creature count, which I think is the best anti combo option that this deck has.

Finally, as my list being maverick/b, I started off with 3 life from the loams and 4 mox diamonds and slowly arrived to where I am now. I have ways played Lilliana over pulse/vindicate as to always have versatile answers and threats. The absurdity of GSZ made me drop loams and the brokenness of deathrite shaman has made me leave mox diamonds out of my 75.

Scryb ranger is just being tested as a one of utility creature with rediculous amounts of synergy with the rest of the deck, protecting forests/Merfolk or delved blocker/jace killer/knight untapper/shaman untapper/makes surprise blockers theist goes on for just 1G.

Finally, I do not like shaman with goyf due to the fact that he really wants the ability to pick up equipment and swing and that he helps the game go longer with life gain/life loss/acceleration. He does not play bad with knight of the reliquary. As I have said before. Your knight will always be bigger than their knight, and no other creature will be bigger than your knight. In most match ups as 7/7 is just as big as a 9/9 especially with shaman life drain.

[Mr. Safety]

How many Scryb Ranger are you running?

I think Deathrite Shaman is an interesting card, for sure. But, I can't see myself running more than one, possibly two. Why?

I was thinking the same thing (I just trimmed your quote so my post looked cleaner.) If someone really wants to play 4x Deathrite Shaman, then the number of Scryb Ranger would have to be at least one, probably more to gain value. Then you'd have to make sure that there was a way to make Ranger/Shaman into a valid threat: enter Sword of A&B, etc, probably SFM. It's a different setup, but possibly good.

For me, I'll be playing one Deathrite Shaman with GSZ and squeezing in a Scryb Ranger. Ranger has always been decent with Knight of the Reliquary (fetch Horizon Canopy/Wasteland, crack it, untap with Scryb for a bigger knight, profit.)

My list is far from stock, so I don't want to derail the thread by posting it. I just wanted to pipe in that Deathrite Shaman and Scryb Ranger, along with a set of Knights, are great tech for Rock right now with GSZ.

[lavafrogg]

My list is far from stock, so I don't want to derail the thread by posting it. I just wanted to pipe in that Deathrite Shaman and Scryb Ranger, along with a set of Knights, are great tech for Rock right now with GSZ.

All we do is post different lists and argue about them! Bring it on!

[Deckerator]

I played against RUG-Delver with a set of shamans and he was really really nice. He kept them away from having threshold, shrink their goyfs and he gives 2 life or deals two damage which can help a lot.
The problem i have is that i miss creatures. Creatures like Goyf and Knight. The Shaman is really really good but he can shrink our creatures too. And only playing knight as a beater is definitely to less.
What good beaters can we add? I miss some

[Sughayyer]

Wow, I tried to post something a few minutes ago, but either this site has gone mad os my cel is on strike.

Anyway, frog: plan vs combo is not discard+goyf+pray. I DO run lilianas, 6 discards pre-board and 9 post.
I understand and respect your build, but I am very comfortable with mine. Tomorrow I'll finally get my gsz's and a couple shamans as well, I may spend some time testing. But this is not going to happen in this weekend.

Differences aside, I think that most The Rock build are in a good moment right now. We just have to tweak for each meta, but the shell is basically the same, I think

[Hanni]

At first, I was apart of the group that thought Deathrite Shaman, if playable at all, should be no more than a 2-of. The more I keep thinking about it though, the more I really think Deathrite Shaman should be the go-to mana dork (for the versions that want mana dorks).


I think Deathrite Shaman is an interesting card, for sure. But, I can't see myself running more than one, possibly two. Why?

1) It's a bit different than Ooze, since you get value out of mucking instants and sorceries beyond their ability to be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage. This is the main reason I like him, in addition to the mana ability. Early on, this mana ability is pretty god awful, especially if you're trying to power up your own Knight and they don't drop many lands in the bin.

2) How many do you run to achieve maximal value out of this card? I can foresee a cool Shaman build, but what are you cutting to fit this card in? In my mind, something like 1-2 Scryb Ranger and 1-2 Deathrite Shaman seems like a cool thing, considering the ability to also get greasy with Ranger and Knight. However, what are you removing? It seems like at that point, you're cutting Maelstrom Pulses (so your curve comes down) or you're cutting discard and other stuff. This is not where I personally want to be in a meta with a combo presence. The ability to durdle with Shaman and make them lose life without having to enter combat is definitely a thing, I would agree.

The thing is, how often do you guys really use your mana dorks? Turn 2, turn 3, maybe turn 4? Point is, you only use the mana ability at the beginning of the game. You no longer need the excess mana after the early game. During the early game, he's tapping for any color of mana (which is huge), and he's castable from both a black or green mana source (less huge, but still awesome). Very few decks in the format don't run fetchlands. This deck can easily run more fetchlands to adequately support him, and should be doing so anyways for Knight of the Reliquary (why 8 is the established amount for decks with Knight is beyond me). Sure, he shrinks your Knights a little... but only when you're opponent isn't giving him any food. He's also great vs other decks with Knight. A few p/t off Knight can definitely hurt us, but the extra fetchlands can/will compensate.

As a mana dork, he's a little more conditional than Birds of Paradise, sure. There's a little bit of anti-synergy with Knight, sure. Like I said before though, you only want to see mana dorks at the very beginning of the game. Being bad in multiples is mostly irrelevant, because other mana dorks are bad in multiples, too (meaning you rarely need more than 1). I can't think of too many times where I want to drop a turn 1 mana dork, followed by a turn 2 mana dork. Once you hit enough land drops and have depleted your hand enough, you no longer need the accel.

This is where Deathrite Shaman shines. You don't want to topdeck a Birds of Paradise on turns 3 or 4... it's completely worthless. You don't want to topdeck a Hierarch on turns 3 or 4... it's a 0/1 on defense, a 1/2 on offense, and Exalted only matters if you swing with only 1 creature, in a deck full of creatures. But Deathrite Shaman isn't just a mana dork. The 1/2 body is lackluster, but it can still pick up equipment... but the other abilities are simply phenomenal. The Rock has always had a rather rough time of it against aggressive decks like fast Zoo, Sligh, and Burn. Exiling creatures for lifegain is perfect there. This deck has no use for sorceries or instants in the graveyard, besides having 1 of each for Tarmogoyf. 2 damage of lifeloss, without using the red zone... that's impressive. Not quite Lavamancer impressive, but we're talking about a frickin mana dork here. This guy is a mana dork that you actually don't mind drawing in the midgame, because he's not just a mana dork. The fact that the effects of these abilities come at the cost of exiling cards from the graveyard? Holy effing shit. You wanted to flashback that Swords to Plowshares and 2-for-1 me? Sorry dude. You wanted 7 cards for Mongoose? Sorry dude. Lands for your Knight? Sorry dude. His ability forces him to tap down, but rightfully so... these are additional effects on your 1cc mana dork.

This is also what makes him good in multiples. You're not eating everything in the graveyards with this guy right away. Having two activating every turn isn't stealing each others resources right away. The fact that there are so many matchups where you actually want these effects...

He's easily a 4-of IMO (for decks that want mana dorks).

This also leads me to question the validity of Scavenging Ooze now. Sure, Ooze is a fantastic card that can grow to large sizes after a ton of additional mana investment, and gain you some life in the process. He only costs 2 mana too, but since most decks run him as a 2-of, he actually costs 3 mana (w/ GSZ). So you're spending 5 mana to get a 4/4 Ooze (albeit split over multiple turns in most cases), where you could have simply spent 2 mana on a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. And when your using mana to exile an instant or sorcery instead to prevent some flashback shenanigans, he's not even growing at all. I'm not trying to say he's a bad card; I'm simply trying to point out some flaws. Why? Because I'd much rather run 4 Deathrite Shaman instead.

This little gem is an uncut diamond right now, but I expect him to shine as more and more people actually start using him (and finding out how good he really is). I want to tweak my list a bit more before I post it, but I'll get around to it at some point. I still prefer Deadguy Rock better as a personal preference (the list I posted before with a shitload of discard + removal + fat asses), but I'm excited about Shaman enough to work on my other various Rock lists that I have sitting around on MWS collecting dust.

[lavafrogg]

I played against RUG-Delver with a set of shamans and he was really really nice. He kept them away from having threshold, shrink their goyfs and he gives 2 life or deals two damage which can help a lot.
The problem i have is that i miss creatures. Creatures like Goyf and Knight. The Shaman is really really good but he can shrink our creatures too. And only playing knight as a beater is definitely to less.
What good beaters can we add? I miss some

You should still be running knights of the reliquary at te minimum. I have been running SFM again with equipment to bulk up my 2/1 and 1/2 army of dorks.

[Fakedylan]

So I'm on board. Deathrite Shaman seems to be shaping up into a really really good card for black decks. I've been play testing as much as possible and went from 4 to a 3 of. So far I've changed list several times to see what's best but I must say all my matches have been close; I never once got blown out of a game. He really shines as a way to abuse powerful cards in the black color pie (vindicate has been insane). Reason for going down to 3 btw is due to running 2 GSZ and 1 Arbor so I felt it unnecessary to have 4. Shaman seems like it will make an impact once we get the card figured out, as someone said it's an uncut diamond! Also I've played black decks(B/w - B/w/g) with Chrome/Diamond and one thing I always hate was the card disadvantage Shaman seems to make this disappear.

[Claymore]

Just as an aside, I (and likely others) came across the interaction of Life from the Loam + Dryad Arbor + Lotleth Troll. This might have a use in Loam Rock builds, especially when used with cycle lands to repeatedly grow the Troll over a turn while drawing cards through Loam.

[sdematt]

That, and Vengevine and a bunch of Deathrite Shamans.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

All we do is post different lists and argue about them! Bring it on!

Its already posted in the Junk/Aggro dirt thread, but essentially it plays a 2x Entomb package, alongside 3x GSZ, and plays a 4-shot of Smallpox. Unearth and Deathrite Shaman are great alongside Smallpox, probably the best enabler of Shaman I've toyed with yet.

For Entomb: 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Raven's Crime, dudes, especially Witness, if I have Unearth in hand

GSZ package: Pridemage, Goyf, Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, Eternal Witness, Dryad Arbor, 4 Knights

The rest is Swords, a single Abrupt Decay (all I have now), 3 PW's (1x Liliana, 2x Garruk Relentless), a couple Pulses and 5x targeted discard.

Where I really go off-track from other lists is my lack of Dark Confidant...which is controversial (at best.) I make up the difference by playing 2 copies of Unearth so I can cycle when needed or just recur dudes in the yard if they get killed. If my graveyard gets hosed, it becomes a cycler, nothing more, nothing less until I get a Witness recur going.

Actual list:

Dudes - 9
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness

Sorcery - 20
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox
3x Unearth
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Instants - 7
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Entomb

Planeswalkers - 3
2x Garruk Relentless
1x Liliana of the Veil

Lands - 23
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Nantuko Monastary
1x Barren Moor
1x Tranquil Thicket


Yes, I know its 61 cards. Its basically to squeeze in land #23 (2nd basic Swamp.) I told you, no Dark Confidants and quite different than most decks. I am testing the setup and so far Unearth and Smallpox have been really good against RUG Thresh, but I haven't tested more than 3 games so far.

[lavafrogg]

Mr safety: I have never noticed this before but why are you not running mox diamonds? The crd has minimal drawback in a loam deck and it seems like a no brained to me:/

[Deckerator]

I have got a problem. I dont know what list i should play for best? Hope you can help me. :)


Here is the big list;

Lands:
23 (including maze, karakas, wasteland)

Creatures:
4 knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman ( i like him just in multiple times. Against a deck like RUG they can deal 6-8 dmg a turn.)
4x Stoneforge Mystic ( had him and his equipments already cut, Equipments: Batterskull, SoFaF, Jitte) When i cut stoneforge i would play 2x Umezawa's Jitte as equips

Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay ( i like it so much because it can destroy a creature for sure without beeing scared that it can be countered.)

Sorceries:
3x Thoughtseize
2x Maelstrom pulse (i thought about cutting him because it is expensive for 3 mana)
1-2x Pernicious deed ( i think i will only play one)
2x Vindicate
3x inquisition of kozilek

Artifacts:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Mox Diamond

I like destroying hands but in my few test matches i never playe hym
Maybe she should go the sideboard against combo etc?

The following changes:
4x Hymn to tourach (3-4 moving to the sideboard)
playing with 23 lands.

What do you think about the spells with cmc 3? How many shall i play?

[sdematt]

I'm playing Hymn in the board and it's been great. You bring it in when you really need it (Miracles and Combo) but otherwise, you leave it out.

Also, 22 lands with 4 Mox is a big no-no. Bump to 23 lands, 3 Mox.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Random tangent. With deathrite shaman I have been favoring engineered explosives over abrupt decay/vindicate in almost all matchups. This means I hav brought glissa the traitor out of my crap rates pile as she plays very nicely with the explosives and the equipment I am running to help the shaman kick more ass. Still testing though.

[Hanni]

Random tangent. With deathrite shaman I have been favoring engineered explosives over abrupt decay/vindicate in almost all matchups. This means I hav brought glissa the traitor out of my crap rates pile as she plays very nicely with the explosives and the equipment I am running to help the shaman kick more ass. Still testing though.

Why are you preferring EE over Decay/Vindicate because of Shaman? I know EE is a good card, but what I'm just curious what it is about Shaman that has you preferring EE.

[AggroSteve]

only thing i can think of why someone would favor EE over decay/vindicate could be against miracles, getting by a counterbalance lock to maybe kill a jace with 4 sunburst-counter.
vindicate would not really work in this situation if they are floating a 3cmc on top
only other situation would be if you have got to face a lot of token.decs

[Claymore]

Interesting point with how EE can get to 4 colors with Shaman. I still don't see why it gets the nod over AD though, since AD is still necessary to take out Delvers and Tops. Do be warned that EE in a rock deck can get messy, since a lot of what you want to kill will have the same CC as your permanents. I don't think Glissa does enough to warrant a slot in anycase, even in the equivalent modern deck (which I'm making and has these cards) she often dies immediately or requires too much setup to get the engine going. Perhaps with GSZ it can get more interesting.

[AggroSteve]

even with GSZ glissa is just not good enough, even if she has first strike and deathtouch (her other ability needs too much setup as was already posted)

[lavafrogg]

In my opinion, EE is the best sweeper in the format right now. It kills all of mavericks one drops and all of RUGs one drops in a single blast. The added utility to off anything with CC 1-5 is an added bonus and is super viable against tribal decks of all colors.

I am not sure why everyone keeps saying abrupt decay can kill a divining top but explosives can kill one under te same circumstances as well.

The glissa addition requires no set up and makes equipment/explosives stronger as well as being a beast in combat.

These are all just suggestions btw.

[Hanni]

In my opinion, EE is the best sweeper in the format right now. It kills all of mavericks one drops and all of RUGs one drops in a single blast. The added utility to off anything with CC 1-5 is an added bonus and is super viable against tribal decks of all colors.

Just wanted to point out that an EE at 1 doesn't kill a flipped Delver.

[lavafrogg]

Just wanted to point out that an EE at 1 doesn't kill a flipped Delver.

Sorry, 0-5.

[sdematt]

I see the point that was made, however, EE and Abrupt Decay function as different cards, with, well, different functions:

1) The ability to sunburst on 5 with 2 Deathrite Shaman is a cool new toy for us. Yay us.

2) EE can kill a Counterbalance by paying XXY to Sunburst for two. However, the have a number of three drops to still nicely flip for Counterbalance.

3) EE can be countered very easily by Spell Pierce/Force/Daze.

4) EE usually takes 1-2 turns to perform its function.

5) EE usually is for taking out multiple threats of the same CMC.

6) Could kill a Jace if you're running Mox or Shaman.

Compare/Contrast this to Abrupt Decay.

1) Two mana uncounterable spell that kills most of the relevant threats in the format, including Delver, Goyf, Knight, Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Umezawa's Jitte, Swords of X and Y, Counterbalance, Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring, Stoneforge Mystic, Germ Token, etc.

2) Did I mention uncounterable? This is a relevant action. Spell Pierce, Daze, and straight up Counterspell are cards in the current format. Getting rid of something for sure is a big deal, and at the moment, Counterbalance can be especially problematic.

3) Only kills one copy of the target in question, and is done at instant speed in one turn.

4) Has no option to kill Jace/Elspeth/Humility/Moat/Smokestack/etc.

---

As you can see, they are different pieces of removal. EE is designed more as a mass sweep on a converted mana cost, and will be better against Maverick, tokens, etc. However, I disagree saying it's better against RUG: the question of uncounterability is huge in that game. I've won games I should have lost because I was able to remove a Goyf/flipped Delver without my opponent being able to do a thing. I've mucked Counterbalances that were locking me out by flipping 3's to counter my Pulses and Knights. I've also lost games by not clearing out Angel tokens, Goblin tokens, or even just Nimble Mongeese.

Again, the cards are different, but I think at the moment, with the amount of blue at play in the format, I want Abrupt Decay. Maybe I don't want 4, maybe I do, but I know I also want sweep, but moreso in the board.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Played last friday, and most surplrisingly, lost to my overconfidence (or maybe deck variance? I dunno).

Won VERY EASILY against esper decks, combo match is still easy, but lost g2 and 3 to a merfolks (after crushing them on g1 and being wastelocked out of g2 and 3 :frown:). A similar thing happened against bw tokens.... won g1 easily, but on g2 and 3 i couldn't find either one of three pulses or 2 e. plagues (drawing 2 cards per turn with bob, and using top).... sigh. It happens. Nevertheless, I am quite happy with the deck, and these things must happen once in a while, I guess....

[lavafrogg]

Deathrite Shaman has jumped to $9.99 get them before they get out of control!

[Sughayyer]

Aw, come on, it was not funny the first time you did it, and it got even less now. (no offense meant)

[lavafrogg]

Aw, come on, it was not funny the first time you did it, and it got even less now. (no offense meant)

Hey, sorry for looking out for you guys.

[AggroSteve]

it is a viable card for this deck, its only nice from lavafrogg to inform us of the prize tag of this card and by no means an attempt to direct the thread in a specific direction
at least he was intelligent enough to get them before they rise in their prize

[lordofthepit]

it is a viable card for this deck, its only nice from lavafrogg to inform us of the prize tag of this card and by no means an attempt to direct the thread in a specific direction
at least he was intelligent enough to get them before they rise in their prize

Neither the zero placements in the Legacy Open Top 16 nor the prediction of their financial expert (Chas Andres) that these will drop to $2 inspire me to buy Deathrite Shamans anytime soon.

[Mirrislegend]

Well, my aggro list with Lingering Souls card advantage failed me miserably at SCG Providence. I switched away from Stoneforge because she couldn't race combo. I spent many games pining for that pale girl with the weapons. As combo (read: Show and Tell) recedes slightly, I feel that Stoneforge deserves another chance. Here's my latest list:

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond

23 Land

SB:
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Thalia
1 Teeg
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke

- I love Hymn, but it's competing with so many spells in the two drop slot. Cutting it for 1cmc discard gives me more turn 1 action and doesn't clog up my hand when I'm playing other spells to try to keep up with a fast deck.
- Abrupt Decay hasn't been anything special yet to be honest, but it's nice to have a 5th removal spell for extra interaction
- I might change the Library to another Top. With all the shuffling this deck does, Top can be EPIC
- I am having trouble dealing with Jace. It may be time to include Maelstrom Pulse (maybe Vindicate) in the 75

[sdematt]

Obviously Abrupt Decay hasn't been anything special for you as of yet, considering that you're only running it as the fifth removal spell as a 1-of. Statistically, you're drawing it once every two games or so, depending. Bump it to 3-4 first, then see if you're seeing it too much/. That's how you test the value of a card in the deck (unless you already know 2 of is already a good place to start for your deck or something like that).

Also, you're only running 2 manipulation cards (1 Top and 1 Library). How do ever keep up with decks playing Brainstorm and Ponder? With the full 8 (4 Confidant, 4 Sylvan/Top split), you can actually outdraw some of your opponents and just bury them in effective removal and creatures. Here, I feel like your deck runs out of gas too often, but I could be 100% wrong since I haven't played your list. If I were you, I'd cut:

-1 Teeg
-1 Qasali

+2 Abrupt Decay

And you could cut 1 Mox Diamond for the Sylvan Library or Top. Get yourself a bit more uncounterable removal coupled with 16.67% more draw power!

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Mr safety: I have never noticed this before but why are you not running mox diamonds? The crd has minimal drawback in a loam deck and it seems like a no brained to me:/

The original reasoning was because I was using 24 lands maindeck, plenty to run the deck without Mox. Along with that, I was originally playing maindeck Deeds...which kills part of my acceleration. Not a big point, but a point nonetheless.

The biggest reason now is simply because I can't find room. I have dropped to only 23 lands (with it pushing me to 61 cards) and Loam is now just a toolbox option for Entomb rather than a central focus. I'm not sure I would want to cut any of my toolbox for a simple mana accleration card. As it stands (meaning current list) I am not as reliant on my graveyard because Entomb enables a faster utilization (EOT Entomb, my turn dredge, bingo, got Loam and the mana open to use it.) If they hose my graveyard after Entomb hits, that's ok. I've traded a resource for a resource...GSZ still digs out threats and my control suite still has a good saturation so I can reliably draw into it. With Entomb I have a more reliable way to grab Loam...without as much risk. Make sense?

And i have my singleton Shaman for my GSZ package...traded for it easy enough.

Regarding Engineered Explosives...I think the closest card, in function, is Maelstrom Pulse. Potential to hit more than one permanent but usually only dings one. If you want an all-out wiper, Deed is your choice. If you want specific destruction, Vindicate/Pulse is typically better than Explosives (IMHO.) I agree that Glissa is a waste of space, even with EE. If you want to play EE and have recursion, play Landstill with Academy Ruins...or utilize Eternal Witness with your GSZ package. But if you have Witness, you can recur your Pulse/Vindicate/Deed anyways...

[Mirrislegend]

Teeg is very relevant in fairly common matchups (Miracles, most combo). It's rarely a waste of the MD slot.

However, you make an excellent point about Qasali Pridemage. I'm trying to sort out the uses of Pridemage where Decay falls short. BSkull is obvious, but control decks can play around that easily. Moat is scary as fuck. Can anyone see other points where Pridemage > Decay?

I love Mox too much to cut any. Yes I'd LOVE to have more filtering, but cutting things is just so hard :(

[Vandalize]

Hi guys. I've been dusting off some decks I've used to run, and one of them happens to be the rock. I used the old school version with Pernicious Deed, Sakura-Tribe Elder and Spiritmonger and it was a house.

Nowdays, I've decided to bring back this deck to life, and make some obvious adaptations to the new metagame. Due to Show and Tell based combo being the most popular nowdays, I've decided to skip Storm based combo hate. It's just not worth it, since Rock colors are off blue, and you have to spend a lot of sideboard pieces to make things happen.

This is my latest version, and I'd like to hear some advice from people who's experienced with this archtype.

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Creatures [17]
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze

Others [20]
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Life from the Loam

Some explanations: Rock is not Maverick. Period. They're both Midrange decks, and they both have their merits, but Green Sun's Zenith is better suited in the latter archtype, they have better utility creatures and better ramp provided by Noble Hierarchs and they can play Thalia with almost no drawbacks. Rock is trying to either land a major threat in the early turns, like Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic, or disrupt your opponent via board control and discard effects and then land a threat. Rock can't control the game for long, since discard isn't as effective as permission, so we also need efficient beaters. That's the right spot for Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, the second being a really good utility one. Moreover, black gives us nice options for sideboard against the most common decks in the metagame.

Engeineered Plague is mainly to fight Goblins and Elves, being the first a bigger problem. Discard isn't very effective against them, and you need to rely on Stoneforge Mystic too much to win the first game. Plague makes the postboard games much in our favor, as they can't interact with Enchantments (not 100% true for Elves). Engineered Explosives is great against control and against Merfolks. It deals with Entreat the Angels with a small investment and it's pretty useful in 80% of the metagame. Oblivion Ring and Karakas are for the Show and Tell matchup, which is one of this deck's weak spot. And they have other utility, like removing Planeswalkers or dangerous critters from Reanimator. Life from the Loam is great against control, and even better if you man up and switch that Savannah for a Horizon Canopy (I couldn't do it yet). It's also great against RUG if you manage to Wasteland them. Path to Exile is great against aggro in general, but it's the best removal avaliable against RUG. It's a Swords to Plowshares with no drawback at all. And it's pretty useful against Merfolk and some dangerous Goblins. Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog are there for you not to scoop against Dredge and Reanimator. And they have other marginal utilities.

Thanks for the reading.

EDIT: Don't forget you can tap some colorless lands to cast Engineered Explosives, like Wasteland or double color lands in order to play arround Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. The colorless adds up to X, but doesn't trigger Sunburst. Example: you can tap double Bayou and Wasteland to make cast Engineered Explosives for 1BG and X = 2. You can also tap Scrubland and Bayou for black, and cast Explosives for BB with X = 1. This is marginally useful, but it doesn't hurt to remind.

[Claymore]

You say that Path to Exile is great against Delver, but I'd much rather side in Abrupt Decay 3-4 rather than Swords 5-6. Getting around counters is huge in that match when not facing Mongoose, not to mention the related matchups.

I'm also curious about Thalia from the side against combo/SnT instead of the random x2 O-Ring, x1 Loam, and another x1 (Karakas?) but I'll leave that up to more experienced Rockers. I know from my fanatical testing of the Nic/SnT matchup that just a few cute SnT counters will not cut it.

[Mirrislegend]

that just a few cute SnT counters will not cut it.

Are you referring to Thalia as the cute countermeasures, or Vandalize's SB slots?

Thalia is great against them. Keeps them from cantripping into everything they need. Makes SnT almost manageable speed. Keeps them from going off with Petals. And Thalia hits almost every other combo deck in the format (except Dredge. and she even hits them sometimes).

O-Ring is good tech against them but isn't necessarily worth the SB slots.

[Claymore]

I'm referring to the O-rings, especially at a low x2 count. Nice in theory but just rarely enough. The SCG that Rock took down a month or two ago used Thalia with great success against SnT in the finals.

She might not work well with the mainboard, but the combo matchups you bring her in for are the ones you take out the likes of Vindicate and such.

[damionblackgear]

Neither the zero placements in the Legacy Open Top 16 nor the prediction of their financial expert (Chas Andres) that these will drop to $2 inspire me to buy Deathrite Shamans anytime soon.

How much influence do I have towards that thought process? I've been VERY happy with testing and would recommend it to anyone who's using a bird as a Zenith target (singleton). Even as a single I've found the reach to get that extra distance to sure up the Miracles match (over 50/50). It's also better against burn and Goblins. (There should be video's up soon).

I don't think it's worth $10 USD but I think it's something you should trade to get your singleton. It'll go down "soon enough". the set's new and new things cost more - good* things stay more.

*Good is best described as things that are on route to become staples.

-----

Vandalize - Besides the lack of basic plains paining me (granted, that's an old experience with Moons that makes me almost require it for my lists), Why the second Karakas in the board? You already have the Loam to have a second (third, fourth, and fifth) just in case they legend rule you.

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- Your list underperformed for you, that pale girl with the swords has been some good as of late.

There is so much going on in this thread right now I love it! I am just going to touch on cards/topics to the best of my ability:

Thalia: If you have a strong combo presence in your meta than Thalia is most likely the best card to bring in against SnT or Storm based combo, especially when paired with wastelands to keep them low on options. She is not that strong or even worth it if you do not think you will be playing omniscience and tendrils at least twice in a given tourney. Sideboard hymn to tourachs can get you there while still being relevant in the control matchup for keeping hands empty.

Teeg: Should be maindeck in any list with GSZ, the match ups where he is good are very relevant right now and if you can protect him with equipment/karakas he will win you the game against miracles. He also keeps jace off the board and everyone hates jace. Which brings us to:

Green Sun's Zenith: I will say this again and I will feel super repetitive while saying it: Green Sun's Zenith is the best card green has to offer. I believe everyone should be running 4 but not running any is for sure a wrong choice. It is greens version of brainstorm but it can fund the exact card you need in any scenario. Anyone can come in to the thread and say that zenith is a maverick card but maverick is a tier 1 deck using tier 1 cards. If people want to play in the past and not use the cards wizards gives us then I will be very happy to be playing a more consistent and powerful version of the same deck, let me play mirror matches all day long.

Abrupt Decay: It has found a home in my sideboard for right now as I don't live near SDEmatt and I do not need to play 20 pieces of removal against RUG and Maverick(Matt loves his removal) the ability to come in out of the board and kill a delver/counterbalance is huge but it still does not warrant main board slots in a tight list.

EE: This is my sweeper of choice, I get to pick a converted mana cost that I am losing at and wipe it off of the board. Deed hurts me too much and is too slow/clunky in todays metagame.

Hymn to Tourach: Matt posted that this was in his board the other day and I have tried it out...awesome. The card is super strong in some match ups and garbage in others. It is the perfect sideboard card! It helps against the many versions of SnT over other very specific(but maybe useless) hate cards. If you have a thalia and he drops an omniscience than good job... but if he drops a griselbrand/emrakul it is most likely a different story.

Stoneforge/goyf: If combo/goblins is a big deal in your meta, you should be playing 4 goyfs to give you the best shot at winning...if not that Stoneforge is the better plan. Goyf just walls merfolk until your other cards can come online. Stoneforge is better against miracles and control in general as all of your creatures are now threats. Kind of a meta thing.

Thats all I really have right now. Other than everyone should be playing Deathrite Shaman...that card is fucking dumb.

[lordofthepit]

How much influence do I have towards that thought process? I've been VERY happy with testing and would recommend it to anyone who's using a bird as a Zenith target (singleton). Even as a single I've found the reach to get that extra distance to sure up the Miracles match (over 50/50). It's also better against burn and Goblins. (There should be video's up soon).

Do you like it better than Ulvenwald Tracker? That's the card I compare Deathrite Shaman to in terms of how "good" it is. It has more versatility, a tougher body, and an easier casting cost in exchange for less impact on the board; moreover, the abilities of both creatures are dependent on the gamestate in other ways.

Now, that comparison isn't to say Deathrite Shaman sucks--in fact, I thought Ulvenwald Tracker would see some play in various decks as a one-of tutor target when Maverick and similar decks were running rampant (before Miracles essentially relegated creatures and "fighting" for board presence to second-tier status). However, there are a lot of great cards in Legacy, and it's difficult to make the cut. I have previously said that Deathrite Shaman is unlikely to see regular Legacy play, and if it did, it certainly wouldn't be a 4-of (i.e. that would only see play as a singleton GSZ copy in Elves). I may certainly be wrong, and those have extolled the virtues of Deathrite Shaman as a 4-of in The Rock may eventually be proven correctly.

Since I know you thought the Tracker was good enough as a singleton copy, how would you compare Shaman to him? Better? Worse? Situational? Make room for both in your toolbox?

[Pippin]

I have previously said that Deathrite Shaman is unlikely to see regular Legacy play, and if it did, it certainly wouldn't be a 4-of (i.e. that would only see play as a singleton GSZ copy in Elves). I may certainly be wrong, and those have extolled the virtues of Deathrite Shaman as a 4-of in The Rock may eventually be proven correctly.

Since I know you thought the Tracker was good enough as a singleton copy, how would you compare Shaman to him? Better? Worse? Situational? Make room for both in your toolbox?

Why do you think that Shaman is a no-go as a 4-of? I'm asking because I was thinking the same, until I saw it in action. Surprisingly, Shaman is quite good in multiples, especially in a format like legacy that is full of cantrips and fetchlands on both sides of board. Shaman isn't a Green Sun's fetch material, it's a GSZ enabler with added bonus for mid and late game.
Comparing Shaman to Tracker is wrong way of thinking since their roles are completely different, not to mention that one of these cards is unplayable (and it's not the Shaman).
People are seriously overlooking Birds of Paradise ability on Shaman, which enables much easier crossing in other colors (splashing blue etc), without the problem of being stuck with a 0/1 flyer when things don't work out perfectly. Casting Hymn to Tourach or playing a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary/Lingering Souls/Vindicate has never been easier - with the potential to follow up with a Jace the turn after.
There are other unmentioned bonuses - like stopping turn 1 lackey, winning g1 vs Reanimator on it's own on the play, etc... The card deserves serious consideration and testing in multiple shells.

[paladin3056]

Thats all I really have right now. Other than everyone should be playing Deathrite Shaman...that card is fucking dumb.

QFT


Why do you think that Shaman is a no-go as a 4-of? I'm asking because I was thinking the same, until I saw it in action. Surprisingly, Shaman is quite good in multiples, especially in a format like legacy that is full of cantrips and fetchlands on both sides of board. Shaman isn't a Green Sun's fetch material, it's a GSZ enabler with added bonus for mid and late game.
Comparing Shaman to Tracker is wrong way of thinking since their roles are completely different, not to mention that one of these cards is unplayable (and it's not the Shaman).
People are seriously overlooking Birds of Paradise ability on Shaman, which enables much easier crossing in other colors (splashing blue etc), without the problem of being stuck with a 0/1 flyer when things don't work out perfectly. Casting Hymn to Tourach or playing a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary/Lingering Souls/Vindicate has never been easier - with the potential to follow up with a Jace the turn after.
There are other unmentioned bonuses - like stopping turn 1 lackey, winning g1 vs Reanimator on it's own on the play, etc... The card deserves serious consideration and testing in multiple shells.

QFT as well, Shaman is very good in multiples, it makes match ups against GY based decks like Reanimator and dredge from completely unwinnable to a slight chance of winning. I had this one game against Dredge where I had 2 deathrites in play simulatenously removing Ichorid and the likes from the GY till he scoops due to not getting enough food for a Dread Return. That means a lot when we auto loose game one with such match ups, but winning game one could also mean a sure win post SB where we board it all the hate we have against such decks.

Shaman becomes an Early game BoP but a late game shock to an opponent, this increases the clock making us win match ups faster. Compare this to BoP this has a lot more utility. As much as he is GY dependant, then we can say the same for Snapcaster which Blue decks have 4 MD, as well as Goyfs and KotR which are a 4-of in all their respectives decks. Although this is poor comparison with what those cards can do, my point being is that shaman creates a whole lot on impact as much as those cards can do.

[damionblackgear]

QFT

Yeah... You should learn to take a joke (or do we need to use smiley's to prove it's a joke :tongue:). Stick to the subject(s) at hand please.

-Edit, since I just finished reading your post- Since entomb's unbanning, I'm X-0-1 vs Reanimator. I'm terrible so where is the matchup as terrible as you say?

-----

Pippin & Lordofthepit - I wasn't the biggest fan of this card in the beginning. I'm still not the biggest (:wink:Lavafrogg:wink:) but I do think if you're running X birds that it's worth the switch for some number, although I don't like the card as a 4-of.

When you're playing something as a 4-of, you're intending to have it asap and as much as possible. In this case, the life and burn are both "later" game abilities. During the early game, you're spending your time doing things with your mana (staying in the game). That means that you're usually using it in the early game for it's mana ability, not the other two.

Unfortunately, that ability is dependent on another variable. If you, or your opponent, didn't have to bin a land on their first couple of turns, you're playing a "vanilla" 1/2 (Would you play stoneforge with no equipment?). Needless to say, you wouldn't play a creature like that very often. While those chances may be low, the idea of competitive non-blue decks is to increase consistency in the power of plays instead of filtering draws (there are no real blue draw spells anymore).

Now that we're past that, playing 0-3 of them may be fine. I don't recommend any more than 2 but that's just me (no evidence, just a feeling). In my case, I had a singleton Birds of Paradise. In my case, it's worth it to change it.

If I'm playing it on the first turn, there's a better chance that I've Zenith'd for it (guaranteeing a land in the yard, Mox) than hardcast it (simple numbers, 2 Zenith; 1 Bird). That mean's there's a much higher probability that I'll be able to USE Shaman as ramp in those early turns than with lists just running 4.

Now to the meat of why I changed. My bird was meant to fix colors and provide a tutorable out to Moon effects with just a single green source (Get bird, destroy moon). In that sense, the Shaman can do the same thing, except that I can hardcast with Green or Black. No basic? Shaman doubles the percentages of drawing the right one.

Shaman also provides late-game options (burn and life recovery). This means that the late-game topdeck'd Bird is now able to do other things with out equipment. There are enough Instant and Sorcery spells in the deck to support Shaman in the later game.

Due to the intentions of my bird and the extra abilities of the Shaman, I've moved over to shaman and recommend it to anyone running X birds. I just don't think it's good to run 4 of them.

Summary - Shaman's good but not a 4 of for consistency reasons. It's fine as a tutor target, just know why you have that target.

[Pippin]

@damionblackgear

I must say that your reasoning is a bit strange. Especially the quote: "Shaman's good but not a 4 of for consistency reasons". This is something that contradicts itself. You want 4 Shaman to help with consistency, so that you can cast all your heavy colored spells in the early game. If you have shaman as a GSZ target that is indeed an interesting choice, since you could go for either Scavenging Ooze if you need to fight graveyard or for Qasali Pridemage if you need to fight through Blood Moon.
Shaman will be active vast majority of time, since the format is full of fetchlands (and one can run more to accomodate Shaman), not to mention that your Wastelands suddenly gain extra value.

[sdematt]

You say that Path to Exile is great against Delver, but I'd much rather side in Abrupt Decay 3-4 rather than Swords 5-6. Getting around counters is huge in that match when not facing Mongoose, not to mention the related matchups.

I agree with this. You really want the uncounterability, and not just for Delver, but for Counterbalance.


She might not work well with the mainboard, but the combo matchups you bring her in for are the ones you take out the likes of Vindicate and such.

Thalia is great against the combo that needs to build some sort of Storm count and has limited mana availability. Sneak and Show without Omniscience doesn't get hurt as much by Thalia, but it seems like the new OmniTell does, having to cast multiple spells (even if they're free) to build up a count to kill you. Thalia is the better card in this situation, but it also depends on what else you're running. Thalia doesn't do much work against Miracles, since the reason they're playing Terminus over Verdict is the fact you're wiping for W. Making it 1W is still fine.

---

I'll try Shaman out replacing one of the Scavenging Oozes, just to get it in the deck to try it out. I'll keep you posted.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

@damionblackgear

I must say that your reasoning is a bit strange. Especially the quote: "Shaman's good but not a 4 of for consistency reasons". This is something that contradicts itself. You want 4 Shaman to help with consistency, so that you can cast all your heavy colored spells in the early game. If you have shaman as a GSZ target that is indeed an interesting choice, since you could go for either Scavenging Ooze if you need to fight graveyard or for Qasali Pridemage if you need to fight through Blood Moon.
Shaman will be active vast majority of time, since the format is full of fetchlands (and one can run more to accomodate Shaman), not to mention that your Wastelands suddenly gain extra value.

I've been trying to limit my posts to one per day max but I'll make a small exception to help explain. I'm gonna shotgun this explanation because I'm short on time.

Very few of the "Rock" lists currently run 4 Birds/Hierarch. Why is that? The answer's simple, "They don't want them in the late game." Even with all the fixing and everything else that's available via Birds/Hierarch they are not very good in the mid-late game. because of this, there are altered numbers for each, even though, 4 is the number that's required to reach maximum consistency. They also allow for a 100% chance of being able to produce an extra mana their next turn (if they live).

When I use the Bird in my list, it's intended to be fixing only. The problem is, I only run 1 bird. That's not nearly enough to be consistent in a 60 card deck. That's where I mentioned the cost and typical 1st turn bird plays (mox required, guaranteed land in yard). As I'll always* have a land in the yard for my first turn bird, Shaman would also always provide a mana the next turn. So, the inital Ramp is close enough to the same that I can afford the <1% loss in efficiency.

Now take if you do run 4 Shaman, you now have to adjust your manabase to allow for as many fetches as possible. This takes away from many things but, most importantly**, you cut into the Knight's land base. You start to lose utility from knight which returns you to a bad version of New Horizons when you cut too many. Compared to Knight, Shaman isn't as useful and as such, shouldn't be included in ways that prevent you from running the rest of your deck optimally. That's why I say not a 4 of.

So why run it at all? You made good points, if you're looking for graveyard, go to Ooze. If you need to stop a Blood Moon, Qasali Pridemage.

Here's the main problem I see. These are limited examples. Ooze will always be better at dealing with Graveyards with green mana. What if you're limited to basics and you already have Ooze out? Suddenly, you're able to deal with a spell and a generic at once. Or, another example, you get wasted off green or are playing the "No Forest" game suddenly you're still able to limit the graveyard without green mana. That's something Ooze can't do. Granted there aren't very many matches that that will be relevant but, it's something to think about.

Now let's look at the Moon effect. There's one big thing you overlooked, Magus of the Moon. Pridemage can race him but, they're expecting him. You could say that they're designed to have him in play. That makes it so that they'll most likely have ways of dealing with a pridemage over the course of the game.

Now that's just one example. You won't always have Pridemage. Nor with you always have basic forest to Zenith for the answer but, you'll likely have a land in the yard at that point (Nobody really plays dragon stompy anymore so we can omit T1 moon). So, any basic Forest or Swamp will allow you to play the Shaman and thus give you access to Pulse/Decay. Either of which will allow you to deal with the problematic Moon effect long enough to preemptively get out from under the next (hopefully).

To finish this up, your two examples are great for the graveyard and moon but, what if you need that last little bit of reach? Sometimes, we are stuck behind things that limit our abilities to actually close out the game (Moat, bridge, Mom, etc). Shaman's abilities aren't just limited to eating cards from graveyards and producing mana. They also do other things. 2 life may not be much but, it's enough when added up.

I've got to run now but if you want I'll try to clear up anything else tomorrow before class. as for the asterisk...

*Usually.
**Important to me

[paladin3056]

@ matt

hopefully the shaman would perform well for you as it did in mine

@ damionblackgear

It seems that it would be hard to dissuade you but it would be so much better to playtest with it, that's how I got into to liking the shaman. Shaman performed so well that she can do so many things other than strictly being a BoP, I wouldn't even compare it to such since if you would look at the big picture shaman can do a whole lot more than being just that. Although running 3-4 is still debatable (still in the testing phase) I would always like to have one on the first few turns. If she sticks, she can do a whole lot of shenanigans from ruining Snapcaster tricks to shrinking opposing KotR's to vanilla 2/2's to just casting a 3CC card on turn 2. Just sticking one on the first few turns makes her a must answer to any opponent because if unanswered and I drop more threats like KotR and Bob it would hurt a lot more as the game progresses. No land in either GY 1st turn, why not attack, she maybe vanilla without the GY but she is still a 1/2 creature that can attack (compared to 0/1 birds). As for adding in more Fetchlands, I don't think adding its necessary to add in more fetchlands, 6-8 is quite enough there is not that many decks not running fetchlands nowadays that she can probably be fed by your opponent and you only probably need to feed 2 or 3 lands to use her mana ability anyways since I would always use the shock ability once I get all my threats into play and mana producing is no longer a necessity.

If that doesn't convince you then nothing would but that's ok :cool:

But trust me test her as maybe a 3-4 of, then tell me if she doesn't work for you.

[Claymore]

I was testing the shaman x2 a bit last night and love her for the acceleration and mana fixing, but she most definitely needs a high count of fetches if you want her to be a consistent fixer on turn 2. I was testing with 7 and still had a few games where neither myself nor the opponent (RUG Delver) had burned a fetch turn 2. Quite a few times there was a RUG fetch on the field that was burned EOT that rustled my jimmies...

One thing that's nice in playing her is that she opens up use of the Sensei's top in the early game. Turn 3 you can still activate the top in your upkeep and be able to cast a 3cc spell (with extra consistency thanks to the mana fixing) which proved to be a huge tempo boon that I didn't anticipate otherwise.

In addition, even without Abrupt Decay, you can use her acceleration to overload RUG's counter suite by means of cheap removal (Swords/Discard) followed by hard kill spells (Liliana) during the early turns.

Still needs more testing, as there were times when I was facing down a threshold Goose and Goyf with a 1/2, or I was woefully unprepared for turn 2 Show and Tell, but she brings some obscure advantages within the Rock framework past her written abilities.

I think the list was based on something damion or matt posted a few pages back as a sketched "here's what to run with shaman x2" but with some additional modfications.

[Mirrislegend]

I've begun my derpy little fishbowl testing of Shaman. So far, I like it. Doesn't make my world go round, but the flexibility is fantastic. I see uses for it in every MU.

I don't feel that I need it in play in every game. I'm not constantly pining for it when it's not on the board.

I'm happy playing one for now. I could go up to two so that, when it's really being excellent in a given situation and the opponent finally answers it, I can still have one on the board again. I doubt I'll ever play more than 2 in Legacy

[sdematt]

@ Lava,

Shamans aren't $10. Just picked one up for $4. Enjoy that tidbit :P

I didn't get to play a ton of Magic last night due to infinite midterms, but god I love Ulvenwald Tracker. It's definitely a card Maverick needs to be playing if Baleful Strix is a card, 100% for sure.

-Matt

[Hanni]

To whoever said that they understand why people run 4 Birds for consistency, but only run a couple because they suck as a topdeck... that's exactly why Shaman is so good. They aren't shitty topdecks in the midgame, and they provide the same awesome accel in the early game.

Playing only 2 feels wrong. If your deck is structured like Maverick, or in other words you take full advantage of the mana ramp, you should probably be running 4. At 2, you're going to be using your GSZ's for Arbors alot more often... where if you had more Shaman's, you could save GSZ for grabbing threats instead. And a turn 1 Shaman is so much better than a turn 1 Arbor, especially in GBW lists.

Running 2 Shaman's feels like running 2 Vial's (analogy to Vial in Vial decks). Same for any mana dork, for that matter.

However, unlike Birds, these guys are actually worthwhile topdecks, good in multiples, and it's not that hard to fit in a few more fetches instead of extra duals/basics to accommodate them.

This is the accelerant that The Rock has been waiting for. There is really no good reason to run Hierarch, Birds, or Moxes anymore (unless your using Loam and Diamonds). Shaman + Decay were the two cards GBW needed to push it over the top and make it worth splashing black for (what I mean by this is that most people seem to prefer straight G/W; Confidant and discard was already enough reason before IMO).
If you are playing a deck not structured around the mana ramp (no GSZ/etc)... then you probably don't want these guys at all. So again, running them as a 2-of still seems wrong.

[Mirrislegend]

I have to disagree with Hanni here. I already have enough turn one action. I'm not in need of more. Few versions of Junk will NEED Shaman to function properly. It will help just about everybody, but I don't think many multiple Shamans is any more important for GSZ versions than for other versions.

Also, I think you're missing a major component when discussing the value of ramping: everyone already does it. Most builds play Mox Diamond. Given that, Shamans are not Vials 1-4 (to reference Hanni's analogy), instead they are Vials #4 or 5 and up. Hence, with 3 Moxen, I'll play 1 Shaman and consider a second. But the card will have to be the next Tarmogoyf (which even the biggest proponents of Shaman will not say) for me to play more than that.

[Sughayyer]

Guys, you gotta read the whole posts, not a single line. I totally agree with Ian (altough I don't run shaman myself). See, the wholoe purpose of zenith is the versatility. If you run shaman + zenith, there is no point on using 4 -he MIGHT be a good target to zenith on the midgame, but you don't want to draw a lot of copies (wich ends the game first, Reliquary or Shaman?).
Also on that RUG issue, why do people that run mox fear Canadian and its variants? You deny their dazes and stifles, and post side if you know how to play, you will leave their submerges stranded in their hands. The match was never really that hard, and abrupt decay only made it easier. Also shaman is smaller than all their threats, and can't be activated more than once per turn so keeping them away from boosting the mongeese seems a bad argument.

Also, (and I know I'm gonna be crucified now) I see a trend of "I found a great (green/white/black) creature, let's put it on Junk" but the primary premise of Junk is the control aspect (the lots of "destroy permanent" spells), not making a horde of critters. Maverick does this better than Junk, with less colors, and with more functionality. If we are running 0 to 4 discard spells, few (if any) permanent removal spells, why even bother using black on the deck?

Lastly, please do not compare shaman with noble hierarch or scavenging ooze, these are totally different cards, it's like comparing Opeth to Amon Amarth.

[Hanni]

Mirris, you didn't read my whole post. I was comparing 2 Shaman to 2 Vial for lists running GSZ for Arbor as the other ramp, because GSZ can be used for other things instead. You just mentioned that you were also running 3 Chrome Mox. That's a different story... that's more like running 3 Daze and 2 Spell Pierce, which is a different analogy altogether. I addressed this in my post though, where I said that Shaman is better than Chrome Mox.

Chrome Mox is card disadvantage, and still doesn't provide mana of any color. What plays are you so worried about rushing out there on turn 1 that you are willing to achieve it with Mox? Confidant, SFM, Hymn? The initial card disadvantage nullifies the card advantage gains from those spells, and while I'm sure that's the justification behind why you can afford it, it doesn't change the fact that those plays would be much stronger without the card disadvantage, especially if you lead with a Thoughtseize on turn 2 (with 3 mana via Shaman). While that Mox will eventually become an excess mana source later, the Shaman has alot of other functions. That's not even counting the issue of topdecking a Mox in the midgame vs topdecking a Shaman.

Sughayyer, you mention reading whole posts, but then you didn't even read mine. Running more Shamans DOES increase the amount of Knights you will have access to because you DIDN'T waste GSZ on turn 1 for Arbor instead.

The primary premise of Junk is... there is no primary premise. A quick look through the thread is perfect evidence of that. I posted a Deadguy Rock list a few pages or so back (or Dark Horizons to some)... and yea, that's the sort of lists I wouldn't run Shaman in. Or would I?

Jokes aside, the lists where Shaman would fit in are the lists that people keep posting that are basically Maverick with Dark Confidant and 4-6 pieces of discard, instead of some of Maverick's excess utility (whether that be Libraries, Scryb Rangers, Linvala, or whatever). Those lists aren't even running Decay in the main. Those are the lists where Shaman's belong.

The lists that aren't set up like Maverick? Well, I don't understand why those lists would even waste their time with GSZ... they have enough discard to not need Teeg, Decay to not need Qasali, are able to support Goyf as to not be as reliant on Knight, and GSZ reduces the efficiency of those creatures by making them cost 1 more mana each (which is why you run mana dorks in those lists in the first place).

Hardcasting 4/5 Goyf for 1G is alot more efficient than casting a 2/2 Ooze for 2G via GSZ. To get a 5/5 Ooze via GSZ, to outsize the average hardcast Goyf... you're looking at 2GGGG over the course of however many turns (3 activations).

It's pretty easy to see why GSZ lists would want the Shaman's if you ask me... and pretty easy to see why GSZ would be worse for the lists that don't need the toolbox...

[Sughayyer]

Jokes aside, the lists where Shaman would fit in are the lists that people keep posting that are basically Maverick with Dark Confidant and 4-6 pieces of discard, instead of some of Maverick's excess utility (whether that be Libraries, Scryb Rangers, Linvala, or whatever). Those lists aren't even running Decay in the main. Those are the lists where Shaman's belong.

The lists that aren't set up like Maverick? Well, I don't understand why those lists would even waste their time with GSZ... they have enough discard to not need Teeg, Decay to not need Qasali, are able to support Goyf as to not be as reliant on Knight, and GSZ reduces the efficiency of those creatures by making them cost 1 more mana each (which is why you run mana dorks in those lists in the first place).

Hardcasting 4/5 Goyf for 1G is alot more efficient than casting a 2/2 Ooze for 2G via GSZ. To get a 5/5 Ooze via GSZ, to outsize the average hardcast Goyf... you're looking at 2GGGG over the course of however many turns (3 activations).

It's pretty easy to see why GSZ lists would want the Shaman's if you ask me... and pretty easy to see why GSZ would be worse for the lists that don't need the toolbox...


Hanni, you really understand what I meant now. I think you used better words to say the same thing I did.

Maybe, Lavafrogg was right all along, and we need to use separate threads for all these decks... some of them vary so much that it gets hard to call them the same - some decks listed only use the same colors, but are different archetypes altogether.

Once again, I point out, I'm pretty comfortable with my list full of removals and discards :tongue: For the while, the only changes I can see are on the sideboard; I must devise a better plan.

[Mirrislegend]

@ Hanni: yes it appears I misread your point. My bad! However, I gotta ask, who would use GSZ -> Arbor as a primary means of ramp in Junk? That is just so so wrong. I see absolutely no reason to be doing that line of play as legitimate ramping!

And speaking of fully reading the posts, I play Mox Diamond, not Chrome Mox.

@ the topic of separate threads: it doesn't seem necessary to me. I see Sugg as having a distinctly aggro build (value mostly from creatures), SDEmatt with a distinctly controlling build (value mostly from spells, especially removal), and me and Daimon having very mid-speed decks (that get value from flexibility/versatility). Most builds I've seen fall into these 3 categories. And there are variations on each family (Hanni's desire for tempo elements in the aggro builds, or Loam variations in the control or mid-speed builds).

However, certain core tenants are shared across all 3 major branches- Dark Confidant, StP, other deck manipulation, almost always Knight, almost always Goyf, other fantastic removal, discard elements, a little acceleration, and many SB cards are in common. The numbers of each varies IMMENSELY, but with so many common threads, I find it hard to see them as disinct deck archetypes

[Hanni]

Hanni, you really understand what I meant now. I think you used better words to say the same thing I did.

Sorry for the misunderstanding then.


@ Hanni: yes it appears I misread your point. My bad. However, I gotta ask, who would use GSZ -> Arbor as a primary means of ramp in Junk? That is just so so wrong. I see absolutely no reason to be doing that line of play as legitimate ramping!

And speaking of fully reading the posts, I play Mox Diamond, not Chrome Mox

Your post said 3 Moxes, so I assumed they were Chrome. My bad.

GSZ -> Arbor seems like a fine line of play if you're using GSZ... otherwise, why pay G more for your creatures? At the point where you are paying 2GW for Knight of the Reliquary, and at the same time, not trying to consistently ramp turn 1... I would think you would be better off dropping GSZ and the toolbox, and using more efficient replacements. GSZ being a turn 1 mana dork is half of the reason to run that card in the first place, with the other half being the ability to tutor for toolbox creatures. If all you need are more Knights, you could be running Terravore for 1GG, instead of paying 2GW for more Knights. Again, discard + Decay makes up for Teeg/Qasali if you ask me (for non-GSZ lists).

Whether it be Chrome or Diamond, you're negating the advantages of those card advantage spells (Confidant/SFM/Hymn/etc). Sure you get to rush them out on turn 1, but you could instead drop a Shaman, and drop them down on turn 2, along with either Thoughtseize or Mother of Runes or whatever. Some decks are happy losing card advantage for ramp (Stompy, Stax, etc)... but these decks (The Rock and its Millions - of versions, haha) really like their card advantage.

At any rate, my entire point that I was trying to make, was that Shaman should be ran as a 4-of in the lists with ramp, or 0 copies in the lists without, and that running it as a 2-of seems incorrect. It's the same way I use Vial in other aggro decks; either 4 or 0. And if you are using ramp (like Moxes), I think Shaman is the better option.

[Mirrislegend]

I think your 4 vs 0 exclamation needs to include all major ramp in this deck: 0 or 4+

[Hanni]

Yes, you are right. The 4 or 0 thing is inclusive of other ramp options... in other words, there's no point in running only 2 pieces of ramp (total). However, I'm also stating that I believe Shaman to be the best ramp spell, and therefore if you are running ramp, you should be running 4 Shaman's first. Then, if you want additional ramp, there is either GSZ/Arbor (the best secondary IMO), Birds, Hierarch, Chrome Mox, or Mox Diamond. The secondary ramp does not need to be run as a 4-of, because you already (should) have 4 Shaman's.

I can see a case being made for a 3/4/1 or 3/3/1 split of Shaman/GSZ/Arbor, for whatever reason (like needing the toolbox creatures). Shaman is still the better ramp option though, and with access to discard/removal/etc, the toolbox shouldn't be as necessary in here as it is in Maverick...

[Sughayyer]

@mirri: Just to clarify, Matt's deck is the aggro, with creatures, mine is the control (6 to 9 discards, 10 to 13 removals) :p

[damionblackgear]

I'm so happy you all patched this all up. I had a short novel (http://damionblackgearmagic.blogspot.com/2012/10/oh-man.html) I don't need to post now. I'd been at it since 5:30ish (interrupted by work so it was taking me while) and only checked to see if I was missing anything. Didn't even get to finish it up :frown: If you want to see it, it's linked there.

P.s. that may be me saying, "That sucks. Look what I was writing".
P.P.s. you'll have to bring it back to view it correctly (hit preview on the source instead of Submit)

[Hanni]

Damion, regarding the piece of your blog where you mentioned that adding an extra fetchland shrinks Knights... I realize that. I addressed that a page or two back. If your opponent isn't binning any lands themselves during the early game, you just have to bite the bullet. Since you really only need the effect of the mana dork during the first few turns of the game (until you empty your hand or hit enough lands to not need it anymore), it's only going to be a minor shrink to Knight. In comparison, running a couple of extra fetchlands will help compensate for the loss of lands from Shaman. Knight may still end up being smaller than he could have been, but the impact will be significantly reduced. This is also assuming your opponent is not binning any fetchlands, and you're not putting lands into their yard with Wasteland.

I'm not sure if this is a standardized manabase, but it's the only one that was posted on the last page:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

From there, I question the need of Sronghold in a list with not only a huge threat density to not need it (since it doesn't actually provide card advantage), but also with Ooze/Shaman eating creatures anyway.

-1 Stronghold
+1 Marsh Flats

From there, I would agree on the usefulness of both Karakas and Maze of Ith. Normally I would question the use of basics in such a color heavy 3-color deck, but since Shaman can be cast by both Forest and Swamp to provide mana of any color, I'll accept the basics and move on.

From there, I could justify cutting a Scrubland and a Bayou for two more fetchlands.

-1 Bayou
-1 Scrubland
+2 Windswept Heath

That still gives 5 actual duals to grab + 2 basics + 1 Karakas + 4 Wasteland, and it's not like you ever need to hit a ton of lands in play at one time (and you have Shamans). Aside from the vulnerability to Stifle (which I'd argue is less important than the increased stability against Wasteland), you actually increase your virtual color sources (or rather, access to specific color sources). Your chances of actually drawing a Scrubland or Bayou is decreased, but your chances of having a Bayou or Scrubland in play is increased (based on whatever you decide to grab with the fetchlands). Not only does your vulnerability to Wasteland decrease, you're entire deck is actually becoming functionally better at providing the correct color sources that you need. To top it all off, with or without Shaman, you're improving your Knight's dramatically. The only serious drawbacks here the increased vulnerability to Stifle, and the additional life loss from fetchlands. The vulnerability to Stifle seems like a wash since your gaining strength at playing around Wasteland (the extra fetches also increase your ability to fetch up basics), and the life loss should be negated by Shaman anyways (plus Batterskull and Jitte if you run those).

Why 6-8 fetchlands is the accepted norm for decks running Knight of the Reliquary is beyond me. I can understand doing so in normal decks (that don't benefit from having extra fetchlands), and especially decks that either want to have a lot of land in play or care about the life loss (typically control decks in both of these cases). This isn't a normal deck. I see no reason, in this manabase, to not cut the two duals for two more fetchlands. The extra 2 fetchlands may not support Shaman enough to compensate for Knight, but once you consider that almost every single deck in the format is running fetchlands and nonbasics (for Wasteland targets)... I guess I just don't see the problem. Any size shrinkage on Knight can be made up for by Shaman being able to ping the opponent for 2 damage a turn vs Birds not doing any damage vs Hierarch providing Exalted... and that's not counting the utility to exile relevant cards from the opponent's graveyard, or the relevance of the life gain against aggressive decks like Burn/Sligh/Zoo/etc.

I will restate again, that the manabase above may not be standard or typical of manabases. I'm just using it as a basis for duscussion, and it was the only decklist (with a manabase) from the previous page. Maybe other people are running additional Horizon Canopies or a Bojuka Bog or something. Canopy does sac itself though, and Bog seems a little redundant in the maindeck with 4 Shaman's (I'd still most definitely include it in the sideboard though).

The new manabase:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

[damionblackgear]

I'll pull that part in.


If you want this card to be as consistent as possible, you should be adjusting to a maximum number of fetches without disrupting your manabase too much. There is no real argument against that. If you want a better shot at this being a mana source on turn 2, increase the number of lands you can put into the graveyard by turn 2 (fetches, wastes, etc). The issue with that is that you do "bite" into the Knights already laid claim (land base of the deck and the utility lands in it) when you start doing that. @Hanni I'm adding you to this about this point.


...it's not that hard to fit in a few more fetches instead of extra duels/basics to accommodate them.

Change a Duel into a fetch --> Knight has 1 less fetch available to her.
Change a utility land --> Knight has 1 less "trick" to abuse.

When you start making those tweaks, you change other things as well. It's not as easy as just changing some things in for others. Every card in a list is chosen for a reason. We just have a case where, Card A may be able to be flat out replaced with Card B.

What I was getting at wasn't that the number of lands in the grave would be lower but that the number of times you can use Knight would decrease.

I agree that, with the increased fetch count, you increase the rate and consistency of the growth for Knight's overall power/toughness (and pretty much all of your post). the interesting part is that, from the example (we have a starting point!), above by cutting the number of times you use knight to 6 (5 duels and 1 basic) you're creating a vulnerability in knight that can be capitalized on more easily by LD (wasteland mainly) and even Crypts which when fired will hurt a lot more as there are so few actual fetches you're able to capitalize on.

That's without actually fixing the manabase to survive wasteland/lock (as you mentioned) and limiting the number of tricks. Those Tricks are the main reason we don't play Goyf over Knight - as we can usually kill off opposing versions of Goyf/Knight and Goyf comes down a turn earlier (unless you're using a mana dork, then it's the same) and can close out a game without much "trickery".

As you did put it, you'll probably only use Shaman a couple times as a mana-dork in the early game. Knight being an 4/4 (or bigger) is what makes it a threat against some of the other decks. Having to eat a land on turn 2 to play knight doesn't get it out of that "threatened" range (barring a mox or their fetch which would allow you to have a 4/4 or bigger). Basically, you almost NEED to have that larger Knight to survive most matches. this is especially with how rampant Bolt and Pyrokinesis are.

That's one of the interesting things about Canadian Thresh (I'm going using this as a matchup analysis since a lot of players go to it as the best deck and it plays the 'most" fetches), if they don't have to fetch on the first turn, they won't (shouldn't). They (should) hold fetches until they can gain more value from them or have no other choice. That means you may have to keep your Knight a little longer to ensure that it does not bite it to said Bolt.

That's where it comes down to Knight vs Shaman and which you are attempting to better support. By supporting Shaman's consistency, you limit Knight's utility (bog, arbor, Waste, Maze, Karakas, etc). By supporting Knight's utility, you reduce the consistency for shaman (less fetches).

In the example manabase (yeah, let's just call it Standard), Knight can Waste, Bounce Legends, and "Fog" a creature. Those are probably the main uses but, it's also cutting the ability to actually draw (Canopy), fight opposing Knights/graveyards (Bog), grab an Arbor, or tie up mana (Tabernacle, not as much of a stretch as people think).

[Hanni]

In the defense of the less duals more fetches manabase, you really shouldn't be wasting time sacrificing lands with Knight unless you are either trying to Waste-lock an opponent who has stumbled badly on mana, in cases where you need the utility land, in cases where you absolutely must block with him, or in cases where you cannot attack with him. Otherwise, you should be smashing face with them rather than using their ability.

Eating a land or two early may shrink his size when trying to rush him out there on turn 2 (although lets face it, the largest he would be is 4/4 at that point anyway, which doesn't seem consistent with only 7 fetchlands). Luckily, you usually have a ton of other stuff you want to be doing before you rush out a Knight... like casting discard, setting up one of your card advantage creatures (Confidant/SFM), Plowing Delvers, etc. Maybe it's just the way I play, but I usually wait to drop Knight until he's coming down as at least a 5/5. Not only does that help make him Bolt proof, that's also the size where he tends to be larger than everything else.

As a 5/5, I'm usually not concerned about growing him any larger when I can smash face. The windows of opportunity can oftentimes be limited for actually being able to do damage (whether it be due to a pending Terminus, pending protection like Mother of Runes or Sword of Feast and Famine, etc). Some matchups may warrant grabbing a utility land first, and again sometimes I may opt to go for a Wastelock. The manabase I listed had 6 lands available for sacrificing, which seems like more than enough to grab a utility land. Going for a Waste-lock may be a bit more riskier, but that's not always necessary, and Shaman provides mana too. Also, although it has 2 less lands to sacrifice, it has 3 more ways to get those lands into play, so it's not going to be any less consistent with having Forests or Plains in play... it's only limiting the amount of times that Knight can actually be used. Unless Waste-locking, I really don't think he should be used more than a couple of times anyway.

I've always been the type of player to try and limit my toolbox options as much as possible in decks that run toolbox options. Clean and concise. I remember all too well, how so many players would go overboard with Silver Bullets in their Survival lists (back in the day), and how inconsistent they ended up being. Even in various Loam decks with Entomb or Intuition, I always keep my toolbox small. Only the essentials. This may be why I am not concerned with losing out on having a bigger toolbox in my manabase for Knight. The way I look at it is, I can always sideboard the extra utility lands that I'd want to see in specific matchups. Tabernacle vs Goblins is something I always toss in the sideboard, along with Bojuka Bog for various graveyard strategies. Sometimes I toggle between Bog maindeck, especially right now with nearly every deck using the graveyard in some way (even normal decks are using it now, with guys like SCM and Knight). However, with Shaman, I am definitely moving the Bog to the sideboard strictly for graveyard-based matchups like Dredge. Drawing it as a normal land sucks... it's nonbasic, comes into play tapped, and only provides black mana, yuck.

Honestly, I don't even include Maze of Ith most of the time. If it tapped for mana, that would be a different story. As it is, it should not even be considered a land when deckbuilding, and should be replacing a spell slot instead, so that point is moot anyway. In aggressive decks, I rarely care about untapping attackers. The only time I really want to see it in aggressive decks, is to use it to untap Knight to give him Vigiliance (and also to use his sac ability to grow him larger). That still requires that I waste an attack step though, and it takes several attacks before the damage difference from growing him will compensate. If I'm applying a clock already with other creatures, I oftentimes don't even get to compensate for the initial damage loss, either because he eats removal first, or I win the game first. At any rate, I kept it in the list above because I understand how valuable it can be, and since I understand that most people do include it in their lists.

In the lists that would run GSZ, then yea you definitely need to include a Dryad Arbor. In this case, I'd simply add another land to the deck (going up to 23 real lands + 1 Maze).

This is my personal opinion, and I'm not trying to insult or offend anyone with it, but I think Shaman is worth accommodating. You reduce the effectiveness of Knight by a minimal amount to strengthen the mana dork slot dramatically. A couple of Shaman's can do some serious damage to an opponent, while adding another disruptive element. You could argue that Ooze can do the same thing, but Shaman is so much more versatile and it's using otherwise useless slots (by useless I mean strictly mana source slots like Birds of Paradise or Moxes). You could argue that Hierarch provides utility too, but Shaman provides a whole lot more utility than simply adding Exalted, and his ability to make black mana is pretty much a dealbreaker for GBW decks IMO.

I keep reading tournament reports in other threads where they were playing against opponent's with Shaman's, and how badly they underestimated him. There is something to be said about doing 2 damage to the opponent each turn (for each Shaman), without using the combat step. I actually just read one such report in the Goblins thread right before making this post.

EDIT: I also wanted to throw this tidbit out there...

The issue with mana dorks in the past was the fact that they were always dead draws. You ran them to help accelerate your early game beats, and it was worth it for that. They could still carry equipment (although Birds was a bit limited since Jitte needed counters first), they could still chump block, and Llanowar Elves could still chip for some damage from time to time.

Then Hierarch was printed, and it changed things a little bit. Now you had a mana dork that actually provided some utility once you no longer needed the extra mana. Worst case scenario, he could still swing as a 1/2. Growing Goyfs +1/+1 to win the Goyf stand-off was huge at that point in time. Growing Qasali's another +1/+1 to outsize 3/3 Nacatl's, Merfolk's, etc... again, huge. Now with Thalia (because of the first strike), the Exalted is still relevant. Thalia's ability to attack into Mongoose (and other X/3's) can be huge. In lists with Thalia maindeck, I'd still run Hierarch's.

Fast forward to Fall 2012. Now we have Shaman. Now instead of having a mana dork with a somewhat relevant ability (still an awful topdeck), we have an actual threat. Instead of running a creature specifically to ramp and provide Exalted triggers when our creatures attack alone, we have a creature that's actually a good 1 drop creature. Mana ramp or not, his other two abilities are very good abilities, and his 1/2 body is actually really good for a 1 drop utility creature. He doesn't eat it to Forked Bolts, he can chump block Lackey's, etc. Yet at the same time, he's not replacing actual creature drops like Mother of Runes, he's replacing the mana dork spots. To top the whole thing off, he makes mana of any color. This is such a huge difference to the quality of Rock decks (the ones that want the mana ramp, at least). You can now cut Birds of Paradise and Moxes from your Rock lists, and run an actual threat in the mana dork slot, because he's still a mana dork. Topdecking him in the midgame gives you a creature that your opponent would actually want to waste removal on. That right there pretty much says it all.

Anyway, I'm done with my rant. I hope I may have changed a few peoples minds about Shaman, or at least pushed those who were on the fence enough to at least give him a try as a 4-of.

[lavafrogg]

God I love this thread, you guys fucking rock. I have a bigger response later but I wanted to ask hanni where these tourney reports were that had people underestimating Shaman.

Matt- yeah I am an asshole apparently there was a mistake at starcitygames games and he was listed at 10.99 but it has since been fixed.

[Hanni]

I'm not going to go search for all of them, but here's the one that I read in the Goblins thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins/page200 - it's post #3994 by GoboLord

The relevant part:


Round 6: Markus with BUG_Rouge.deck Report
Markus turned out to be a very friendly and quiet opponent. However I want to point out that I won 2 very close games. In game 1 Deathrite Shaman turned out to be a largely underestimated card. When I was at 10 life he suddenly resolved a second copy of it. Luckily I managed to remove his guys when I was on 1 life.
In game 2 I got hosed by Planeswalker Lilly and was then caught off guard by Jitte (which I was able to race).

[damionblackgear]

I feel like anything I say would be better summed up with this.


Eating a land or two early may shrink his size when trying to rush him out there on turn 2 (although lets face it, the largest he would be is 4/4 at that point anyway, which doesn't seem consistent with only 7 fetchlands). Luckily, you usually have a ton of other stuff you want to be doing before you rush out a Knight... like casting discard, setting up one of your card advantage creatures (Confidant/SFM), Plowing Delvers, etc. Maybe it's just the way I play, but I usually wait to drop Knight until he's coming down as at least a 5/5. Not only does that help make him Bolt proof, that's also the size where he tends to be larger than everything else.

Doesn't this negate the Shaman as ramp? Wasn't the Ramp the main argument?

We're both in agreement that the card's good. Our debate is just a matter of how many we're advising people to play.

edit - Frogg, you're punny. (you can all kill me now).

[Hanni]

Since I have yet to post a list, yet I keep discussing things, I guess I should post a list, eh?

The Rock
One of its millions (of variants)

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (20)
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells (18)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
SB: 2 [TE] Choke


So there you go. No GSZ or toolbox, since I feel pretty covered between the discard and removal. No SFM, but rather 4 Goyf instead for pure unadulterated beats. Still rockin a pair of Jittes, though. Shaman for mana ramp and utility (only 4 mana ramp cause I don't feel as though I need more than that), Mother of Runes for the amazing protection and combat dominance, and Dark Confidant for the crazy good card advantage. Knight rounds off my curve, giving me a nice big finisher. The utility lands are kept to a minimum, as I don't feel as though I really want to be durdling with Knight when I could be attacking instead.

Feel free to bash it to your hearts content, guys ;)

EDIT: Was typing up this post before you posted your response...


I feel like anything I say would be better summed up with this.


Originally Posted by Hanni
Eating a land or two early may shrink his size when trying to rush him out there on turn 2 (although lets face it, the largest he would be is 4/4 at that point anyway, which doesn't seem consistent with only 7 fetchlands). Luckily, you usually have a ton of other stuff you want to be doing before you rush out a Knight... like casting discard, setting up one of your card advantage creatures (Confidant/SFM), Plowing Delvers, etc. Maybe it's just the way I play, but I usually wait to drop Knight until he's coming down as at least a 5/5. Not only does that help make him Bolt proof, that's also the size where he tends to be larger than everything else.

Doesn't this negate the Shaman as ramp? Wasn't the Ramp the main argument?

We're both in agreement that the card's good. Our debate is just a matter of how many we're advising people to play.

edit - Frogg, you're punny. (you can all kill me now).

I guess, if you're assuming that the entire reason that I'm ramping is to cast a turn 2 Knight.

In actuality, after dropping a Shaman on turn 1, I'd rather be casting my discard spells and/or Mother of Runes first, and then dropping either Confidant and/or Goyf after that. At that point, I'd then want to use my removal to deal with whatever my opponent dropped on the board. After all that, I'll go ahead and drop my Knights. They should be pretty large by then, and ready to close the game out. If for whatever reason the ground ends up getting stalled out and they can't finish the opponent off, I'll either slap a Jitte on somebody, or ping my opponent to death with Shaman's.

In my list above, I only need the mana ramp for the first few turns, unless I get some card advantage going with Confidant. If for whatever reason the Knights still aren't large enough, I suppose I could waste an attack or two to grab some Wasteland's and lay the smackdown on my opponent's manabase while Goyf does the dirty work.

[Pippin]

Even though this has been mentioned few times already, I feel like I need to put an emphasis on the fact that Deathrite Shaman doesn't need million fetchlands to run correctly.
Both you and your opponents are playing fetchlands in Legacy (matchups where this isn't a true statement are very very rare), even monocolored decks play them. Each Wasteland is a double food for Shaman, and it's mana ramp ability doesn't need to be activated every single turn of the game. Initial ramp and color fixing is most of the time all that one needs, and that is where Shaman shines. It does it's manadork job very efficiently, while also playing an important role on other fronts in the consecutive turns.

As for the Knight of the Reliquary argument... how many games are there where you use his fetching ability more than 5 times? The answer is not a whole lot.

I'll also add that I think that someone is trying to speculate on Shamans atm, so treat these discussions with caution. Last time I checked (yesterday) on TCGplayer there were hundred of copies available for between $4 and $4.5, and since then someone snapped them up. Same goes for foils.

[Hanni]

I'll also add that I think that someone is trying to speculate on Shamans atm, so treat these discussions with caution. Last time I checked (yesterday) on TCGplayer there were hundred of copies available for between $4 and $4.5, and since then someone snapped them up. Same goes for foils.

I'm not sure how much price spiking occurs because of a single thread on The Source, but okay. I think more realistically, that people realize it's going to be a good card for both Modern and Legacy (I'm clueless about Standard), and so they are picking them up before they do price spike.

And for the record, I'm clamoring for why I think Shaman is good, because I think Shaman is good. I'm not actually going to go out and a buy 100 copies to try and turn a profit (I know your comment was not directed towards me, but I just felt like getting that off my chest anyway).

[Apollo]

Deathrite is the real deal IMO and is probably a good buy but with as much RTR that's being opened its hard to imagine any rare from the set maintaining a really high price, Decay has fallen by about half and that was a very hyped rare (which admittedly isn't as great as some thought in the current battlecruiser creature std format). Shaman actually is starting to find his niche role in the format. For instance in Frites (Std. reanimation) you pump a lot of land in your gy and he works well there. Of course his GY hate utility goes w/o saying, people like the card I think it'll get even more popular in the format as people experiment with him.

[lavafrogg]

I'm not sure how much price spiking occurs because of a single thread on The Source, but okay. I think more realistically, that people realize it's going to be a good card for both Modern and Legacy (I'm clueless about Standard), and so they are picking them up before they do price spike.

And for the record, I'm clamoring for why I think Shaman is good, because I think Shaman is good. I'm not actually going to go out and a buy 100 copies to try and turn a profit (I know your comment was not directed towards me, but I just felt like getting that off my chest anyway).

The only reason we are talking about the price of the card is because I care for my fellow rock players and think this card is fucking tits. If someone saw a sale on cheap blow and hookers I hope, for the love of god, that you guys would tell the Rock thread about it. Everyone knows that Rock players love good deals.

Something I have noticed in testing with my list, 4 GSZ/4Shaman+SFM, if ANY of my creatures live for longer than a turn or two...I will win 90% of my matches. For the first time in any deck I have played, ALL of my creatures are must kills. It is really nice.

[Stuuch]

Speaking of different lists. Here is what I will test next:

Lands: (23)

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuga Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (13)

4 Knight
4 Bob
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Shaman
1 Qasali
1 Thrun
1 Ooze

Instants (6)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (10)

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vindicate
2 Green Sun´s Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Encantments (1)

1 Deed

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (6)

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei´s Top


Sideboard (15)

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Extirpate
2 EE
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod´s Crypt


My previous decklist had Stoneforge Mystic but I want to try without her for a change. I may go back to her very shortly though if I feel I cannot compete against burn or Delver without her. The Vindicate slots used to be Maelstrom Pulses but I want to blow up some lands with spells too against combo decks so I try them out again. The lone Deed in the main is easy to side out in most matches but it can also steal some games I had no busines winning otherwise. The disputed Shaman is also being tested as a 1 off because I feel I dont need more for now. Mox just has much more synergies with the deck and it cannot be removed so easily.

[lavafrogg]

Okay, so I want to get away from our past few arguments like Goyf vs SFM, Shaman vs graveyard, decay vs pulse and I would like to tell you that I have found a very unique and versatile sideboard card that I feel is worth talking about. This card would come in against our hardest matches and if at the very least always slow our opponents down by a turn(even more when coupled with discard plus wastelands!!).

My friend and I just tested it against miracles, merfolk, show and tell(omniscience), RUG, goblins and maverick and found that it has applications in all match ups, if you do not have anything better to bring in. The card.... Judge's Familiar.

I know....

Let it sit in for a second...

Holy Shit right? lol.

It single handedly gives us more hate against dredge(sacrifice to remove bridges), combo(need 1 more mana to combo, gives us more time to discard), RUG(counter their counters/removal? they love to tap out and play free spells, this forces them to slow down), miracles(gives you another turn to get early beats in and picks up equipment to fly in for super beats), merfolk/goblins(blocks as a 1/1 flies with equipment over the top, makes the aggro player slow down), maverick(maverick has a surprisingly fragile manabase and loves to keep its own land count low also has no/few fliers to stop a jitte carrying bird) and show and tell(one more turn to combo is one more turn for us to win).

This will now be the de-facto additional combo hate in my board as I continue to test it out, wasteland is already strong against combo decks and this card has more synergy our discard and teeg(pseudo protection for teeg) than the super taxing Thalia. It is replacing the hymn to tourach's that Matt just had me put in my board.

Test it out! Let me know what you think!

p.s. I am not saying that this is the best card and has main board implications, I am saying that it can replace dead cards in your main to give you awesome options and versatility against a wide range of archetypes, especially the current decks to beat. Also this card would most likely only be above average/really good in a list that ran SFM/equipment to protect the SFM and to pick up the swords and fly for the win.

For Example:

4 Judge's Familiar
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile/abrupt decay
2 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

Would be pretty decent against a random field.

[Mirrislegend]

I was eying the ORLY owl too. However, I don't think he belongs in Junk. We gain too much value from the size of our creatures.

I think he has great potential in Deadguy Ale. The deck can play Thalia MD and great discard and support more Wastelands. I'm actually brewing that at the moment.

Alternatively, he could be an excellent fit in Mav. They have 4x Wasteland and MD Thalia also.

@ Stuuch:
1 Deed and 1 Lili seems bad. You should up one or both or cut one. Thrun is also kinda useless these days. Consider the MUs where it's relevant: You'll never reach the mana to get it against RUG, and control can just Terminus it away

[damionblackgear]

I'm not sure the Bird is good enough. We already had a concealable version in Mana Tithe and it never saw play with us (some Death and Taxes variants used it A LONG time ago). Granted, I don't remember it every really getting tested here either.

[Claymore]

The bird seems to have value in equipment decks. Having evasion to swing with a Sword while being a free Tax is great. Otherwise it is an largely passive 1/1 with zero board impact that needs other specific cards in your deck to be effective.

I can see it sideboard as a weak Thalia alternative or Thalia 5-8, but limited to SFM decks.

[lavafrogg]

You guys are lame! I give you gold and you just reiterate what I said in my post!!

Of course he is good in a deck with wastelands, we are running 4! And of course he is good with equipment! That is why I said he had to be in a SFM build!

Now, I think that he buys us just as much time as he would in a maverick deck. Teeg plus bird plus discard seems to be a huge hole to climb out of for any deck that would need to. The flying body is a huge upside as well.

[Hanni]

You need to reread Familiar. You said it can hit Vial, but it's limited to just instants and sorceries.

The card is good, but it will require a specific build, IMO.

Familiar is just like Cursecatcher, except it has flying. It's home is going to be in some sort of tempo shell (not necessarily blue), that combines other elements like it. Wasteland and Thalia is a perfect start, and maybe that is enough. You still need to back that up with either a clock or a card advantage engine, though.

I've been working on some various lists with Familiar, and I'm still at a crossroads. My core looks like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aether Vial

From there, the rest of the deck could be pretty much anything... and that's why I haven't posted anything about it anywhere yet. It's still in the developmental stages for me.

I've toyed with some splashes so far, but still not sold on anything. The Wayfarer's are part of my core because they give me a card advantage engine on a 1cc creature, that tutors for Wastelands to further the synergy with Familiar and Thalia. Vial lets me cheat on lands, to further abuse Wayfarer while providing me with some strong tempo accel (and uncounterability).

[lavafrogg]

You need to reread Familiar. You said it can hit Vial, but it's limited to just instants and sorceries.



This is why you don't post at 5 in the morning, post fixed to make me sound like less of an ass. I knew it was instants and sorceries too....

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure the Bird is good enough. We already had a concealable version in Mana Tithe and it never saw play with us (some Death and Taxes variants used it A LONG time ago). Granted, I don't remember it every really getting tested here either.

I play Mana Tithe in my fast zoo sideboard...yup, I'm just noobtarded like that. Tap out for Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed? SHAZAM! I overdramatize, but it's a great tempo play to protect fast early threats. I was a big supporter of Mental Misstep in fast zoo (when it was legal.) While this isn't nearly as good, it has its moments. But I digress...

Judge's Familiar doesn't seem to offer enough to Rock. Many players are sticking with the Bob/Goyf/Knight package and not even going with SFM/equips. He's obviously better in an equipment-based deck, but I don't think he's worth the space. I'm having a hard time squeezing in a 2nd Garruk Relentless in my deck, there just isn't enough room. Rock's 1-mana plays will always be removal (Swords), disruption (targeted discard), or acceleration (BoP, Deathrite, GSZ, Noble Heirarch occasionally.) Rock gains advantage by ramping into bigger spells faster, enabled by targeted discard ROBBING reactive disruption, not playing it ourselves. Rock is the anti-control, not the control.

This is of course my opinion, but I don't think I'm alone. If I am playing a creature, I want it to be a threat. If I'm playing a spell, I want it to deal with something permanently ie hand disruption or swords. This 'possible value' out of a 1/1 flyer for one mana in Rock seems foolish. The closest correlation is Cursecatcher in Merfolk.

Long story short (too late): I'm not a fan of Judge's Familiar. More than anything else what Rock decks need to be doing right now is loading up on Abrupt Decay and discard to rape RUG Tempo, Stoneblade, and Miracle control.

[lavafrogg]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

[Oiolosse]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

I'm super lit and I understand, so feel free to move on.

[lavafrogg]

I'm super lit and I understand, so feel free to move on.

Hey sorry buddy, when you see people using the arguement of "you need to run equipment to make him good" when I am running SFM and equipment I am allowed to poke fun. The only difference between the decklists that people are suggesting and mine are the inclusion of Thalia. I am playing discard and wasteland thy are playing Thalia and wasteland, are they comparable... That is what I am asking. Playing proactive and reactive disruption is an interesting angle that only UB decks get to abuse.

Thank you for contributing to the rock thread and we appreciate yor traffic.

[Mr. Safety]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

Gotcha bro... :wink:

[Mr. Safety]

Question: can a competitive Rock deck be built without Dark Confidant (and *not* be Nic-Fit)? Not trolling...truly curious, because I don't have the $150-160 for Bobs right now.

[sdematt]

Question: can a competitive Rock deck be built without Dark Confidant (and *not* be Nic-Fit)? Not trolling...truly curious, because I don't have the $150-160 for Bobs right now.

Phyrexian Arena, champ. It's not the worst idea since it doesn't get hit by Swords to Plowshares either.

-Matt

[defector]

Just an idea for the fetch land side of the discussion. Wouldn't fetch lands 8-10 be better served as Horizon Canopy? I'm testing a shaman/thalia deck with KOTR and it seems if you do a mana base like:
Fetch X8
Duals X6
Wasteland X4
Basics X3
Canopy X2

That you can find a happy medium between early shaman activations, late game big KOTR and a little draw without dead fetches. just my .02.

[Mr. Safety]

Phyrexian Arena, champ. It's not the worst idea since it doesn't get hit by Swords to Plowshares either.

-Matt

How many do you recommend? Two, three, the whole set?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Start with four and work your way down if you don't like it.

[lavafrogg]

Sorry guys! There should be a cannot post after beer seven button app on my phone! I sounded was a total douche last night, please blame Stella Artois.

[SMR0079]

Damion, regarding the piece of your blog where you mentioned that adding an extra fetchland shrinks Knights... I realize that. I addressed that a page or two back. If your opponent isn't binning any lands themselves during the early game, you just have to bite the bullet. Since you really only need the effect of the mana dork during the first few turns of the game (until you empty your hand or hit enough lands to not need it anymore), it's only going to be a minor shrink to Knight. In comparison, running a couple of extra fetchlands will help compensate for the loss of lands from Shaman. Knight may still end up being smaller than he could have been, but the impact will be significantly reduced. This is also assuming your opponent is not binning any fetchlands, and you're not putting lands into their yard with Wasteland.

I'm not sure if this is a standardized manabase, but it's the only one that was posted on the last page:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

From there, I question the need of Sronghold in a list with not only a huge threat density to not need it (since it doesn't actually provide card advantage), but also with Ooze/Shaman eating creatures anyway.

-1 Stronghold
+1 Marsh Flats

From there, I would agree on the usefulness of both Karakas and Maze of Ith. Normally I would question the use of basics in such a color heavy 3-color deck, but since Shaman can be cast by both Forest and Swamp to provide mana of any color, I'll accept the basics and move on.

From there, I could justify cutting a Scrubland and a Bayou for two more fetchlands.

-1 Bayou
-1 Scrubland
+2 Windswept Heath

That still gives 5 actual duals to grab + 2 basics + 1 Karakas + 4 Wasteland, and it's not like you ever need to hit a ton of lands in play at one time (and you have Shamans). Aside from the vulnerability to Stifle (which I'd argue is less important than the increased stability against Wasteland), you actually increase your virtual color sources (or rather, access to specific color sources). Your chances of actually drawing a Scrubland or Bayou is decreased, but your chances of having a Bayou or Scrubland in play is increased (based on whatever you decide to grab with the fetchlands). Not only does your vulnerability to Wasteland decrease, you're entire deck is actually becoming functionally better at providing the correct color sources that you need. To top it all off, with or without Shaman, you're improving your Knight's dramatically. The only serious drawbacks here the increased vulnerability to Stifle, and the additional life loss from fetchlands. The vulnerability to Stifle seems like a wash since your gaining strength at playing around Wasteland (the extra fetches also increase your ability to fetch up basics), and the life loss should be negated by Shaman anyways (plus Batterskull and Jitte if you run those).

Why 6-8 fetchlands is the accepted norm for decks running Knight of the Reliquary is beyond me. I can understand doing so in normal decks (that don't benefit from having extra fetchlands), and especially decks that either want to have a lot of land in play or care about the life loss (typically control decks in both of these cases). This isn't a normal deck. I see no reason, in this manabase, to not cut the two duals for two more fetchlands. The extra 2 fetchlands may not support Shaman enough to compensate for Knight, but once you consider that almost every single deck in the format is running fetchlands and nonbasics (for Wasteland targets)... I guess I just don't see the problem. Any size shrinkage on Knight can be made up for by Shaman being able to ping the opponent for 2 damage a turn vs Birds not doing any damage vs Hierarch providing Exalted... and that's not counting the utility to exile relevant cards from the opponent's graveyard, or the relevance of the life gain against aggressive decks like Burn/Sligh/Zoo/etc.

I will restate again, that the manabase above may not be standard or typical of manabases. I'm just using it as a basis for duscussion, and it was the only decklist (with a manabase) from the previous page. Maybe other people are running additional Horizon Canopies or a Bojuka Bog or something. Canopy does sac itself though, and Bog seems a little redundant in the maindeck with 4 Shaman's (I'd still most definitely include it in the sideboard though).

The new manabase:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

Great opportunity for innovation here with the printing of Decay and Shaman. There are a million different ways you can build this variant on the aggro to control spectrum. In order to find focus you need to define what you expect the emerging meta to be. I predict we are going to see three control decks battling it out, Miracle Top, Supreme Blade, BUG, all of which will run board sweepers. On the aggro spectrum, we have Goblins emerging on as the deck to beat. I think Thalia will see play there to help slow down controls board sweeps and combo. Since combo has slowed down we are starting to see the emergence of ramp decks as outlined in Carstens latest article. If Junk/Rock and BUG make a strong showing with Decay we may see miracle top recede which opens the door for Storm.

I like the consistency of your maindeck. It looks like it would struggle against board wipes though. I"ve been considering Lingering Souls as a way to recover from board wipes while also being good blockers against Goblins. SFM into baterskull can be good against board wipes as well

I have a hard time not running GSZ here and Shaman seems like they should be paired together together. If you omit either one the other seems out of place, then you go more Junkish then Rock/Mavrick which is fine. If your not running GSZ I think you want to main deck 3/4 Thalia and move Hymn to the board. It will be interesting to see how Shaman works out, if the tension between her and knight becomes to much.

[Mirrislegend]

Sorry guys! There should be a cannot post after beer seven button app on my phone! I sounded was a total douche last night, please blame Stella Artois.

Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 AM :laugh:

@ fetches discussion:
I feel like each land base must be built to each person's distinct preference and play styles. I build mine to have maximum flexibility with minimum vulnerability: As a result, I only have 2 Wastelands. This is generally considered heresy, yet RUG can almost NEVER mana screw me, so I am more than happy with my choices.


I've been considering Lingering Souls as a way to recover from board wipes while also being good blockers against Goblins. SFM into baterskull can be good against board wipes as well
I can vouch that Lingering Souls, while fantastic, is not what this deck wants. When it comes time to kill your opponent, Souls is too slow. When you're trying to block and survive, Souls is very little tempo gain and really stifles your other development. In general, equipment and bigger dudes does all those jobs better for us. Stoneforge is nuts. If you're deciding between the two, go with Stoneforge. Hanni's post, which you're referring to, doesn't really care about board wipes, as he's trying to build a tempo deck, a la RUG

[lavafrogg]

Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 .

It isn't my fault!! I was at a food event with my job and my boss kept getting us wine and Stella while we were serving media type folks duck!! Blame him.

[SMR0079]

Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 AM :laugh:

@ fetches discussion:
I feel like each land base must be built to each person's distinct preference and play styles. I build mine to have maximum flexibility with minimum vulnerability: As a result, I only have 2 Wastelands. This is generally considered heresy, yet RUG can almost NEVER mana screw me, so I am more than happy with my choices.


I can vouch that Lingering Souls, while fantastic, is not what this deck wants. When it comes time to kill your opponent, Souls is too slow. When you're trying to block and survive, Souls is very little tempo gain and really stifles your other development. In general, equipment and bigger dudes does all those jobs better for us. Stoneforge is nuts. If you're deciding between the two, go with Stoneforge. Hanni's post, which you're referring to, doesn't really care about board wipes, as he's trying to build a tempo deck, a la RUG

I get you on Souls but Hanni's list is not really tempo. I love SFM - just lost in the finals of our local dual event with Supreme Stoneblade, but I'm not sure it answers this decks weakness to control and board wipes very well, and we already beat the aggro decks with superior creatures and removal. We need to test against the 3 control decks more but SFM was the worst card against rug and was not needed against Goblins, or course whiffs against combo. So if it's only needed against one meta archetype I don't think it's justified.

[Mirrislegend]

SFM is only weak against combo. It has immense value against everything else. If you can use it to bait their answers against control, then you can proceed to win on other cards.

Against control, just play and protect Teeg. It's hilariously excellent

[sdematt]

If you're against Miracles, you have to play SoLS like we used to before. That card is redonculous against them.

I've got exams the next bit once again, so I won't be as active. Hymn in the board has been stellar, for those of you that are unaware. Also, I posted this on the pimp thread, but not sure how many of you visit down there, so I'll share my pimped deck:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0048.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0049.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0050.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0051.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0052.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0053.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0055.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0054.jpg



BOARD

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0046.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0047.jpg

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

SFM is only weak against combo. It has immense value against everything else. If you can use it to bait their answers against control, then you can proceed to win on other cards.

Against control, just play and protect Teeg. It's hilariously excellent

With SFM having weaknesses against combo I have found another bonus to the shaman/SFM/GSZ list: cabal therapy!! Against combo you ramp mana if you can and then sack a shaman into the pit!! Replaced hymn straight up... I still feel judge's familiar is playable in a wide open metagame.

With the new printings I actually see junk/rock gaining some ground and moving up the tier one board. It has good matchups against all of the graveyard decks with shaman/ooze, has too many sweepers/removal for maverick out of the board, and has the opertunity to beat the metas control decks with equipment and knights. We can even steal wins from combo decks with discard/teeg/extractions.... Not a bad like of cards if you ask me.

[Sughayyer]

@ Matt Hate you man. Just kidding :p i have a pimped deck too, with altered moxen, goyf, hymns... but my duals have white borders..... sigh.
@ ALL
I playtested (very little) shaman + sfm (no goyf) package. Since hymn made itt's way back to the sb, the combo match isn't soo terrible (even without goyf), but rug gets worse (because if I run shaman, I can't find space for moxen, and moxen make the rug match ridiculously easy).
Of course, with shaman instead of mox the deck loses that explosion that dark horizons used to have, and I also lost my green beatsticks, one pulse and one garruk... but It gains versatility. Maybe I'll play it in a tourney that's coming up soon.

[Deckerator]

I'm really intrerested in your decklist because i play without tarmogoyf, too. Can you post your build please?

[Fakedylan]

Just an idea for the fetch land side of the discussion. Wouldn't fetch lands 8-10 be better served as Horizon Canopy? I'm testing a shaman/thalia deck with KOTR and it seems if you do a mana base like:
Fetch X8
Duals X6
Wasteland X4
Basics X3
Canopy X2

That you can find a happy medium between early shaman activations, late game big KOTR and a little draw without dead fetches. just my .02.


Yee, I play this -2 Canopy replaced with a Karakas / Maze, I feel like those cards are way more important than drawing a card... Btw still testing shamans still a 3 of and excuse my french but fucking loving it. Played today in a small local tournament with my Rock Shaman list and won every match easily. Only 2 decks I played that are note worthy were RUG Delver and a odd Staxx List. RUG devler player was decent but not too good was easy though to play around daze and spell pierce with shaman's on board. Stax list got blown out by my Abrupt Decay's and Vindicates as for the 2nd game Pernicous deed was a boss.

[Sughayyer]

@Deckerator:

I tested the following:

Lands (23)

4 wasteland
2 bayou
3 scrubland
1 canopy horizon
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp
1 karakas

creatures:

3 deathrite shaman
3 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

removals:

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse

discards:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize

planeswalkers:

2 liliana of the veil

artifacts:

3 sensei's divining top
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

sideboard:

2 engineered plague
2 pernicious deed
2 oblivion ring
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
3 hymn to tourach (or, cabal therapy)
2 rest for the weary ( alot of monoreds in my meta)
1 life from the loam

I kinda liked it. As I said before, it lacks explosion from my other list, but it compensates in other points...

[.Ix]

So this is what I've been playing recently. It's a lot more Maverick than Junk/Rock, really, but the Maverick thread doesn't take kindly to splashes.


3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Gavony Township
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze


I took a very similar list and went 4-2 at the last legacy I joined, losing to TES and another combo deck that I don't remember.

Cabal Therapy has been amazing for me. I just call the card I don't want to see if I'm blind, and then sac a Spirit to rip something if I have to.

SOFAF is there to help abuse the extra cards Confidant draws. Sometimes SOFAF allows me to Township twice in one turn, which is insane in grindy creature deck matches. Oblivion Ring has been great. I put it in the deck because of all the Show and Tell, but I've come to like it as extra removal. Also, Gavony Township, lol. It's excellent in this deck. Attacking with 4 spirits and suddenly turning that into 8 power with a Knight isn't easy to deal with.

Deathrite Shaman should work in this deck. I would play it if I had any.

@lavafrogg
I agree with you, I think Familiar is playable. I've been trying to find some room in this deck, since it could help buy time until the opponent can no longer answer all of my threats. The deck runs SFM anyway, and I can just pitch it to Therapy (and get it back with SOLAS).

[Sughayyer]

@ .Ix

Here you are welcome to post.
I have just a few questions/comments:

Running sfm package + lingering souls, it seems you are in no shortage of aggression. Is mother of runes needed?

Can O-ring become something like maelstrom pulse?

This makes room for more utilities/removal...

[lavafrogg]

@lavafrogg
I agree with you, I think Familiar is playable. I've been trying to find some room in this deck, since it could help buy time until the opponent can no longer answer all of my threats. The deck runs SFM anyway, and I can just pitch it to Therapy (and get it back with SOLAS).

Yes! One for me! Also this was texted to me by my buddy, not sure where it came from:

"Deathrite Shaman's stock should go up. Worst case scenario, it's a Grim Lavamancer against your control opponents; best case scenario, it hoses an entire strategy."

updates later

[.Ix]

@ .Ix

Here you are welcome to post.
I have just a few questions/comments:

Running sfm package + lingering souls, it seems you are in no shortage of aggression. Is mother of runes needed?

Can O-ring become something like maelstrom pulse?

This makes room for more utilities/removal...

Thanks, Sughayyer.

I'm not sure about the Mother of Runes, but it's won me a ton of games. It helps me stall against creature decks until I get some kind of card advantage engine or threat to start crushing. It also helps keep important hate bears on the field in games 2 and 3. While I don't think it's really needed, I don't know a better one-drop to replace it with. O-Ring could be Pulse in a different meta, but it's far too valuable against Show and Tell for me to cut. It also kills Goyf, Delver, Jace, Sulfur Elemental, and even Jitte while being very easy to cast. I don't think 1GB is that easy to get with this mana base.

[lavafrogg]

I took a very similar list and went 4-2 at the last legacy I joined, losing to TES and another combo deck that I don't remember.

Cabal Therapy has been amazing for me. I just call the card I don't want to see if I'm blind, and then sac a Spirit to rip something if I have to.



You only have 4 cabal therapies to beat combo main deck so unless you get super lucky you will not win against a competent combo player, especially without goyf. You should get a teeg in your main to give you a shred of hope that he buys you enough time and then get another Thalia in the board to help your chances of a turn two bear.

Maverick hates splashes because it has a very fragile manabase that actually requires a lot of mana to get going. They run 4 Zenith and 4 Heirarchs to help ramp to reasonable levels of mana production as soon as possible. Not only did you take away half of the decks mana ramping ability, you made the deck more susceptible to wasteland by adding 6 utility lands which is an absurd number. You are a set of wastelands away from having all of your duals killed which is very easy for some decks(RUG/anything with loam/anything with knight), You run 7 fetches for basics but then 14 wasteland targets...wasteland is a format defining card you should not open yourself to easy game losses.

The Township and the Cavern's (and cradle) should probably be duals to let you play more actual lands, and be able to sac them to knight.

Finally, Deathrite Shaman is stupid good and should be run over Noble in any deck that is his colors. Shaman and Therapy are the reason to play this deck at the moment(IMHO).

[.Ix]

You only have 4 cabal therapies to beat combo main deck so unless you get super lucky you will not win against a competent combo player, especially without goyf. You should get a teeg in your main to give you a shred of hope that he buys you enough time and then get another Thalia in the board to help your chances of a turn two bear.

Maverick hates splashes because it has a very fragile manabase that actually requires a lot of mana to get going. They run 4 Zenith and 4 Heirarchs to help ramp to reasonable levels of mana production as soon as possible. Not only did you take away half of the decks mana ramping ability, you made the deck more susceptible to wasteland by adding 6 utility lands which is an absurd number. You are a set of wastelands away from having all of your duals killed which is very easy for some decks(RUG/anything with loam/anything with knight), You run 7 fetches for basics but then 14 wasteland targets...wasteland is a format defining card you should not open yourself to easy game losses.

The Township and the Cavern's (and cradle) should probably be duals to let you play more actual lands, and be able to sac them to knight.

Finally, Deathrite Shaman is stupid good and should be run over Noble in any deck that is his colors. Shaman and Therapy are the reason to play this deck at the moment(IMHO).

I haven't tested Deathrite yet, but I can see how stupid good he is. I'll test once I get some.

Cavern is an actual land, and I agree Cradle is sometimes crap. I've been thinking of taking it out for another basic land or dual. I used to run 4 GSZ and arbor, but I cut the whole thing because I somehow always draw the arbor in the opening hand. I've never been flat out beaten by Wasteland, fwiw. There are only 10 green cards, 8 of which can be cast by 2 Caverns. The 8 black cards only cost B and 1B, and 4 of them can be cast by 2 Caverns. Of the 6 "utility" nonbasics, Township and Cradle are the only things GW Maverick doesn't usually run. Not sure how absurd that is, but the mana base hasn't been a problem so far.

Combo isn't very common around here aside from Show and Tell, which I have yet to lose to in a tournament. (Just a lot of good luck, not saying the deck is at all prepared to fight Show and Tell.) If it does get more common, I'll main all 3 Thalia. Teeg is kinda balls against Show and Tell though, so I'll have to pass on him.

[Sughayyer]

@Lavafrogg

I understand his 4 therapy in maindeck. When I play bw deadguy tokens, therapy is the best discard. Because you just name the card that is going to hinder you NOW, after he puts the spirits on the field, he just rips his hand off. Also, if the first therapy misses, he's ok - because the opponent didn't have the card that hinders him.

However, I agree that therapies should be paired with pointed discard.

[Mirrislegend]

@Ix: I like your deck concept. I was working on brewing something similar after seeing the concept in a SCG article. However, I have a major major issue with your list: 11x 3cmc cards with not filtering is a quick way to lose the game to BoB. I sopped this idea when my list hit 7x 3cmc. Yours must kill you all the time!

[lavafrogg]

@Lavafrogg

I understand his 4 therapy in maindeck. When I play bw deadguy tokens, therapy is the best discard. Because you just name the card that is going to hinder you NOW, after he puts the spirits on the field, he just rips his hand off. Also, if the first therapy misses, he's ok - because the opponent didn't have the card that hinders him.

However, I agree that therapies should be paired with pointed discard.

I think that therapy is a dumb card, when you can hit with it. For me this means game 2 and 3 against combo and control. If you are blind guessing against a combo deck on turn 1 you essentially are doing nothing to stop them from killing you on turn 2. If he wants to beat combo, he needs more disruption.

[.Ix]

@Ix: I like your deck concept. I was working on brewing something similar after seeing the concept in a SCG article. However, I have a major major issue with your list: 11x 3cmc cards with not filtering is a quick way to lose the game to BoB. I sopped this idea when my list hit 7x 3cmc. Yours must kill you all the time!

Actually, I've never died to my own Bobs. I have a bunch of cards that can gain life: Jitte, SOLAS, and Ooze. I can also turn him off by pitching him to Therapy when I can't risk life loss. (This is also a great way to use extra Thalias, btw.) If you're really worried about that, Deathrite Shaman should help.

@lavafrogg / Sughayyer

I pack 2-3 Duress in the SB when I think the meta will have more combo. It's usually not that good in the maindeck because of all the aggro around here.

[Sughayyer]

@frogg
that's why I said it should be paired with other 1 cmc discard spells :)

I used to run 3 therapies, 3 inquisitions of kozilek, 1 thoughtseize

[Sughayyer]

Right now I'm not sure wich version I should run because I don't know what to expect from my meta (couldn't play for a few weeks, a teacher's job is ruthless near the end of the year).

This is just a random rambling, though.... here I feel at ease to blow it out :p

[paladin3056]

This is just a question but would it be possible for us to create a transformational SB? since some decks run SFM, Thalia, Lingering Souls, etc and some don't, but each deck has the same core cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman (can this be considered a core card)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary (no goyfs since some don't play them here)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Abrupt Decay (I think this is considered a core card with its versatility)
Any Discard package

Then by shifting a few cards around you can get a fixed transformation SB where MD is good against Aggro and Control and post SB good against combo and control. Anyway this is just a suggestion you can shoot down any way you want.

[lavafrogg]

This is just a question but would it be possible for us to create a transformational SB? since some decks run SFM, Thalia, Lingering Souls, etc and some don't, but each deck has the same core cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman (can this be considered a core card)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary (no goyfs since some don't play them here)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Abrupt Decay (I think this is considered a core card with its versatility)
Any Discard package

Then by shifting a few cards around you can get a fixed transformation SB where MD is good against Aggro and Control and post SB good against combo and control. Anyway this is just a suggestion you can shoot down any way you want.

The problem with this is that there are really only three cards we can agree on. Dark confidant, knight of the reliquary and swords to plowshares.

Any other card is played by some and not by others. We have been working to define what this deck is supposed to do for the last forever. All we know us we are somewhere between GBW Deadguy and NicFit with the closest relation to dark horizons.

[lavafrogg]

Right before I post this I want everyone to know I fully accept the flames and bullshit that we are about to discuss....enjoy.

Expanding on the fact that none of us happen to play any of the same lists, for the most part. I have just hit a fountain of thought on the matter. As I was laying on my floor after getting home from a nice walk (Arizona is so nice for 9 months out of the year if you love the outdoors for those three months you stay inside) I was thinking about the fact that we don't even agree on what the rock deck should do.

This is really going to be a free thought from me to my computer and I am not exactly sure where I will wind up with my views of others but I hope this at least helps me in discussing the deck with other members on the forum, hopefully you can see where I am.

So, here we are discussing and defining the rock as it stands today. Essentially, due to the lack of green, black, or white combos/extreme interactions we are left making a pile of our 60 favorite cards and calling it "rock" because that is what the original Deranged Hermit/Plaugelord deck called itself. This deck used the combo of the Rock, plaugelord, and his minions, deranged hermit, to control the board and swing in for sick damage.

As new cards were printed Spiritmonger became the beater and as for spells the new lists ran what were then considered the three strongest cards in the format: Duress, Deed and Vampiric Tutor. As all of this was mana intensive the lists ran mana acceleration like elves, birds and elders (you choose which card to pick someone probably played it).

At this point in time rock was stable. It had a clear-cut goal and a few different ways to get there that were mostly metagame dependent. The Rock was actually the deck that held combo down as it had strong outs to the combo monster of its day with gravitate and powerful discard spells with Vampiric Tutor ensuring that the correct card was drawn at the exact time it was needed.

Then it happened…Tarmogoyf was printed.

You no longer had to wait to win the game with a giant casting cost of a creature or a haunting echoes. You could now just take the route of Suicide Black decks and disrupt your opponent long enough to win the game with the world’s largest bear. Mana costs of cards were lessened as the power level of all cards went up therefore mana dorks were lost in the fray, some people even ran mox diamond to try and stay ahead of the format with mana acceleration. This puled the rock in multiple directions as some people wanted to play Deadguy/Suicide Variants and some people wanted to stay with the control the board, deed and drop a bomb plan of the slower rock decks. The mid range Rock lists sat in the middle of the spectrum not knowing what to do.

Cards came flying in from new sets… all of them lacking any game breaking combo/synergy but all of them being just awesome cards, knight/confidant/sfm/thoughtseize. "Goodstuff" lists were born as the GBW lists were so varied that people did not know what to classify them as. With the power level of cards and card selection growing older cards became ridiculously powerful, sylvan library/wasteland.

I will admit that goyf was the most magic defining card that we will most likely ever see. I do not feel like he is the best card that has been ever printed for the Rock archetype. That title belongs to the one and only Dark Confidant. He is the most often played card in any "rock" list and is the majority of the reason to play the deck in the first place.

At the current moment from fastest to slowest I would place the state of the Rock Metagame at :

GBW Eva- Deadguy Rock- Junk- The Rock- NicFit

From left to right these decks want to be the best at certain points in the game with Eva lists being blistering fast and NicFit lists wanting to drag the game out as long as possible. I have picked out some key cards in the lists that should help us differentiate lists from one another.

Eva and its Variants- These lists want to disrupt the opponent as much as possible and seal the deal before any significant cards can be played. Mana disruption is at its premium in the first few turns of the game so dark ritual is often used to power out early hymn to tourachs and sinkholes. Tarmogoyf is played as the finisher of choice and the other slot is either tombstalker to finish the game quickly or dark confidant to keep the disruption flowing. Around 8 creatures.

Key Cards-Tarmogoyf, hymn, sinkhole, ritual. 4 Thoughtseize

Deadguy Rock and its Variants- These decks want to establish a strong early game and ride that to victory before any endgame cards can hit the table. Here Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant team up to ensure that a powerful 2 drop hits the table and dominates the game. Knight of the Reliquary or SFM can make an appearance here but only for their ability to finish games. This deck has little staying power and will use wasteland and vindicate to buy itself more turns or use the vindicates to blow up anything that gets on the field. No late game cards played as the deck does not want to let the game get that far. Around 12 creatures.

Key Cards- Hymn, Vindicate, Goyf, 4 Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant

Junk- Junk is in the jack of all trades and in that junk players like to be prepared for anything that can be thrown at them. Multiple toolboxes can and should be used to ensure you have the cards you want when you want them. As the ultimate midrange deck it suffers in the early and late games and needs to make it to the mid game to build an advantage and take that advantage to victory. Green Sun's Zenith will be strongest here as a 4 of in that its versatility is strongest in mid range decks. Swords to plowshares can now reliably be used without worrying about the life gain ruining your day. Knight of the Reliquary is a power card and is your main beater of choice. Dark Confidant is a game breaker and will be killed on spot. The last spot is either Tarmogoyf in a combo heavy/super aggro environment where you need the big green wall down to not die, or SFM in a slower meta where you can stretch her legs with equipment choices. Acceleration is now needed to help gain a step on an opponent. Very few late game cards played. Discard is used to pre-answer problems and not shut down a player. 16+ creatures.

Key Cards- Knight of the Reliquary(plus toolbox), Dark Confidant,4 Green Sun's Zenith(plus toolbox), goyf/SFM, 6-8 targeted discard only, low removal numbers

The Rock- This deck lives on the later game. It wants to be able to sit back and let the good cards flow in. The usual team of Confidant/Knight is played but Rock players will stick to Tarmogoyf to ensure that they make is to the point of the game where they get to cast their powerful planeswalkers, read in their libraries and spin their tops. Garruk will be played to out bomb a control player when they try to stabilize the board with a terminus/jace. Sensei's Divining top will be played to ensure that Dark Confidant does not deal lethal to its controller and that the card selection is absolutely pristine. Lots of removal is played between the main and the board to keep life totals high in the early game. Acceleration can be played to speed up the game. Green Sun's Zenith is to help find silver bullets/more knights. 12-14 creatures.

Key Cards- 2 GSZ(plus 2 creaure toolbox),Sylvan Library/Sensei's Divining Top. Garruk Relentless, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, 3-6 targeted discard, 6-9 removal spells main.

NicFit- Originally I did not think this was a rock deck, it uses green mana acceleration to play the bombiest cards it can find backing it up with black discard and white removal. This really seems like the deck that the original rock was meant to be. Acceleration is provided by Veteran Explorer. Discard is cabal therapy backed by more targeted removal. Green Sun's Zenith is used to allow a giant toolbox of awesome silver bullets and game winners. Other options include Academy Rector into anything dumb, Pernicious Deed into Titans and pretty much anything you feel like. Goyf/Knight/Bob/SFM are not played. Top is an auto include. Creature count is based on creativity of deck builder but are almost all 1-2 of's.

Key Cards- Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Pernicious Deed, huge killer monsters, Top

With all of that being said there are some popular cards that can be seen in multiple archetypes that can gum up the works for the rest of the classification but pretty typically if you play any slower cards you are sowing down your list and are moving out into deeper water. You don't want to be caught as an Eva player dicking with a top while your NicFit Opponent does the same thing from across the table. You are better off running more disruption and trying to kill your opponent while he wastes mana digging for answers.

Using these loosely based guidelines I am going to try to classify some popular lists from our forum and SCG tourneys.


This is from the start of the rock thread:

Dark Horizons, 4th Place at SCG Open: Charlotte:

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gerrard’s Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Board:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Kataki, War’s Wage

With the heavy amounts of discard, 4 thoughtseize/4 Hymn/2 verdict, 8 removal spells and the low creature count this deck wants to end the game fast. It uses Top to help when he needs a certain card to win and even plays 1 deed to try and reset after things go bad. This is a textbook Deadguy list by todays standards.

Lets see….

This is from the amazing Ian Ellis:
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Okay, we have planeswalkers, a library/top split, green sun's zenith, 14 creatures, lower discard and higher removal…I would say this is about as Rock as one can get with a decklist. This brought Ian a SCG trophy and a super cool picture on the SCG website. Note this could easily be a rock list if he cut the GSZ and just played more goyfs…

Here is my dedicated junk list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou


1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 Choke
3 Judge's Familiar
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile

A dedicated Eva list wolf be similar to the Rockguy list but go -3 diamond-3 top -1 deed -1 anything…+4 Sinkhole +4 Ritual and the NicFit List can easily be found in any list with 4 Veteran Explorers 4 Cabal Therapy as the start.

That is all I have for now but I am quit happy with this little rant I went on and I hope it helps us in the future with our discussions. Please message me with any feedback, or just leave it on the forum.

[raindrainxi]

lavafrogg's rant.


Whoa. If that was a rant, I'd want everyone to rant right now. LOL
As someone who wants to enter the GB Eva-Junk-Rock-NicFit archetype that was extremely helpful. I was able to differentiate which would really suit my style.
Thanks.

[Mirrislegend]

@ lavafrogg: nice post! You said it's just stream of consciousness, but it came out very coherent! I like it, but I must immediately note that the numbers of cards that define the categories is very off in some places. I can update with specifics later, but some of those need to be adjusted.

Also, something that isn't discussed here much, although I'm sure it's well sorted out in Deadguy and Maverick: how does Mother of Runes change the classification of a deck? She shows up in aggro lists and not in controlling lists (of any variants of any deck). Yet she is clearly not aggressive and is fairly controlling. By her useage, we could say that her inclusion in a deck pushes that deck AWAY from the aggro end of the spectrum. This is contrary to the decks she's played in. My main point is that I think Mom needs to be relabeled to "aggro card".

This is relevant because her controlling nature may drive someone to argue that she doesn't belong in an aggro shell (I have said this in the past). However, reconsidering her as a solid component of aggro decks, I think she must be exempted from auto criticism of her useage, even in GWB decks.

Her specific value in a given decks is up for debate, just like any card, but I don't think we can ever again simply say "She doesn't fit in this deck".

[lavafrogg]

@ lavafrogg: nice post! You said it's just stream of consciousness, but it came out very coherent! I like it, but I must immediately note that the numbers of cards that define the categories is very off in some places. I can update with specifics later, but some of those need to be adjusted.

Also, something that isn't discussed here much, although I'm sure it's well sorted out in Deadguy and Maverick: how does Mother of Runes change the classification of a deck? She shows up in aggro lists and not in controlling lists (of any variants of any deck). Yet she is clearly not aggressive and is fairly controlling. By her useage, we could say that her inclusion in a deck pushes that deck AWAY from the aggro end of the spectrum. This is contrary to the decks she's played in. My main point is that I think Mom needs to be relabeled to "aggro card".

This is relevant because her controlling nature may drive someone to argue that she doesn't belong in an aggro shell (I have said this in the past). However, reconsidering her as a solid component of aggro decks, I think she must be exempted from auto criticism of her useage, even in GWB decks.

Her specific value in a given decks is up for debate, just like any card, but I don't think we can ever again simply say "She doesn't fit in this deck".

Thanks! I just typed what I was thinking at the time and fully accepted that some of my numbers would be off but for the most part I am pretty close to what people are doing these days. I pretty much blame Tarmogoyf for all of our problems as a deck...if not we would all be playing 3+cc win cons like troll again...

Mother of Ruins is not that tricky of a card to place in a GWB list. She has a great home in Maverick, for the time being, because the deck wants to protect its creature based hosers and win conditions. I mostly see mom replaced by discard in the black based lists. They accomplish the same goal of being played early and protecting threats from removal or doubling as disruption(on board disruption). Thoughtseize is just going to be better for us in that it is not a dead card against combo and decks that pack sweepers.

Mother belongs in the decks that want to play aggressively and win before late game cards can be played. Most likely in Deadguy lists in that the Junk type lists that want to stay on the faster side of the mid game.

I think that GWB decks have better options in discard, and I would not play her over anything when I can cast 1cc discard and then play a bomb. I would most likely play 8 1cc discard over mother of ruins and possibly even some number of hymn to tourachs. We do not need combat based disruption when we can play and black cards we want to control the game state.

Many Maverick players side out Mom due to the fact that she has no board presence herself when the other deck has the edge on the late game. Deadguy players are playing her right now because she was strong in the metagame from a few months ago, before Show and Tell became so popular. Right now players do not need on board combat control they need interaction with players that do not want to interact with anyone or just do not care about a 1/1...think Miracles.

So long story short Mother of Runes<Thoughtseize/Inquisition.

[Mr. Safety]

So I definately land in the Junk range...but I use PW's and only 3x GSZ, lol. I think I'm playing the Rock, definately not Nic-Fit. I use PW's instead of SFM (2x Liliana, 1x Garruk Relentless), an extensive GSZ toolbox (Deathrite, Eternal Witness, Tarmogoyf, Ooze, Pridemage, Arbor), along with 5 targeted discards, 4 Hymns, 2x Phyrexian Arena, and 9 removals (4x Swords, 1x ADecay, 2x Maelstrom Pulse, 2x Pernicious Deed.) I round out the deck with a copy of Life from the Loam and 24 lands, no Moxen. Definate focus on Knights with utility lands like Treetop Village, Cabal Pit, Wasteland, Nantuko Monastary, Treetop Village, Volrath's Stronghold, and Bojuka Bog (still hunting for a Maze of Ith...coming soon!)

So I guess I play a confused mix between Junk/Rock. I guess...:rolleyes:

[Mirrislegend]

Yea, I agree on Mom personally. But on other boards, I've run into people interested in her. I was just sharing that we can no longer auto squash Mom. She is viable, if not always optimal.

Comments on your dissertation! :laugh:

Eva shell: I highly doubt that people use Dark Ritual is these days. And if it's GB or GWB, then probably even less. Also, I don't know if you can put a number on the Thoughtseizes. They'll definitely be played, but the numbers are not guaranteed. Also, if it is BW or GWB and they're playing Sinkhole, then they'll also certainly play Vindicate.

Deadguy shell: Again, I don't think you can list Thoughtseize as a guaranteed 4 of.

Junk shell: You can't say 4 GSZ. Definitely cannot. Fitting in Stoneforge package or other goodies requires adjusting GSZ. Both Ian and I play this breed, and we both play only 2 GSZ. The rest is very accurate, high five great success :)

Rock shell: Doesn't necessarily have any GSZ package. This type of deck may be controlling enough to just skip the utility and brutalize their opponent's board directly. High amount of removal is correct, but an important note is that it almost certainly contains Pernicious Deed. Also, I don't think Garruk is necessary to directly mention here. Instead, I would say this is the build that is most likely to play, and makes best use of, planeswalkers (usually Liliana of the Veil and/or Garruk Relentless). Planeswalkers can and do show up in the other builds, but that is very much up to the individual builder (and usually just a Liliana of the Veil; 1 to 3 copies).

Nic-Fit: I don't know this deck at all. But your description of it brings up an important point: filtering (best are Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library) is fairly important in many of these archetypes. In fact, I believe Eva is the only one that would consider playing without it. All the other builds almost always use it. Deadguy should play it, but sometimes doesn't. Junk needs at least 2 (3 is great, 4 may be too much). Rock needs it too, and definitely wants at least 3 (4 is healthy, 5 is probably max but still viable)

@ Mr. Safety: That sounds like Rock to me. Not quite enough pressure/aggro to be Junk.

[lavafrogg]

Yea, I agree on Mom personally. But on other boards, I've run into people interested in her. I was just sharing that we can no longer auto squash Mom. She is viable, if not always optimal.

Comments on your dissertation! :laugh:

Eva shell: I highly doubt that people use Dark Ritual is these days. And if it's GB or GWB, then probably even less. Also, I don't know if you can put a number on the Thoughtseizes. They'll definitely be played, but the numbers are not guaranteed. Also, if it is BW or GWB and they're playing Sinkhole, then they'll also certainly play Vindicate.

Deadguy shell: Again, I don't think you can list Thoughtseize as a guaranteed 4 of.

Junk shell: You can't say 4 GSZ. Definitely cannot. Fitting in Stoneforge package or other goodies requires adjusting GSZ. Both Ian and I play this breed, and we both play only 2 GSZ. The rest is very accurate, high five great success :)

Rock shell: Doesn't necessarily have any GSZ package. This type of deck may be controlling enough to just skip the utility and brutalize their opponent's board directly. High amount of removal is correct, but an important note is that it almost certainly contains Pernicious Deed. Also, I don't think Garruk is necessary to directly mention here. Instead, I would say this is the build that is most likely to play, and makes best use of, planeswalkers (usually Liliana of the Veil and/or Garruk Relentless). Planeswalkers can and do show up in the other builds, but that is very much up to the individual builder (and usually just a Liliana of the Veil; 1 to 3 copies).

Nic-Fit: I don't know this deck at all. But your description of it brings up an important point: filtering (best are Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library) is fairly important in many of these archetypes. In fact, I believe Eva is the only one that would consider playing without it. All the other builds almost always use it. Deadguy should play it, but sometimes doesn't. Junk needs at least 2 (3 is great, 4 may be too much). Rock needs it too, and definitely wants at least 3 (4 is healthy, 5 is probably max but still viable)

@ Mr. Safety: That sounds like Rock to me. Not quite enough pressure/aggro to be Junk.


I am going to address the cards one by one as a response, but do remember that people can play whatever cards they want. I am just trying to define "pure" lists so people can see where they fall. Cards like Vindicate/Thoughtseize are super versatile and can be played in all of these lists so it would be silly to list them in all builds, especially when people omit them whenever they want. As for the Junk shell, I am treating junk like Maverick/b and in that it is the list I am playing right now (I get to say what I want!) I think that people playing less than 4 GSZ are wrong when they want a pure "junk" approach.

Thoughtseize: The more aggressive the deck, the less they can whiff on a thoughtseize if they have a turn 3 inquisition and see a jace...they lose. They want the game over fast and do not care about the two life loss. The slower the deck, the more they are using 1cc discard to buy time and that is where Inquisition can come in to take a low CC card.

Dark Ritual: In eva/suicide builds the defining play is turn one dark ritual-thoughtsieze-hymn/confidant-go. Anything that does not want to play that blisteringly fast is going from eva and to the Rockguy type builds which are not as fast but should have more disruption.

Pernicious Deed: This can be played in any GB deck and look like a good idea, the truth is that it is slow and dead against combo decks, this limits it to the sideboard in almost all lists.

Finally, I would say that Ian and Matt play more Rock lists that Junk. I am sorry but I cannot remember what list you play at the moment. Matt is the king of the shit ton of removal into planeswalker and library plan. Ian plays tops/libraries heavy removal and planeswalkers which I am also going to say bumps him to the Rock category. The "low" creature count also fits the form.

Then again remember, the fact that we cannot agree is why I made the post in the first place :)

Mr Safety: The problem with your list is hymn. Hymn is an aggro card but your list definitely wants the game to go long, this is also seen in your high removal and recursion plan. You cannot end the game before the hymn advantage wears off so you are most likely better dropping hymn. Once you do that you are pretty much textbook rock with a heavier GSZ toolbox.

[Fakedylan]

Following this thread closely things seem to be going in a good direction. Thanks again to Lavafrogg for the informative post. So I've been thinking about my list a lot and it varies quite differently from what Lavafrogg posted but I feel like it falls in the Junk range of things.

I posted my list earlier but I'll post it again since it's quite a bit different.

Land: 23
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 14
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor This is my 24th land
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells: 23
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Batterskull

Sideboard: 15
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Hymn to Tourach

So far I have to say it's doing quite well and I'm proud of coming up with the list since I've been playing it to some success on Cockatrice and in my local meta. Some of this was of course with the help of the forum with the points people gave me on the deck the first time I posted it; It's lead me to make some great changes I feel. Ok now to the point of the post my thoughts on card choices. Deathrite shaman, maybe loved by some hated by others but here is why I play with it. With Fetches, Loam, and Darkblast I feed this thing with ease. With Loam, Vindicate, and Wasteland I have a high chance of blowing out games by simply keeping people off mana. O and this plan also feeds Deathrite quite well since I can eat a lot of my opponents lands instead of my own shrinking my Knights. Deathrite allow's access to abuse resources helping us play around daze / spell pierce. One thing I'd like to point out is he also eats a removal spell sometimes. Which makes one less to possibly keep Bob alive or even more importantly get Stoneforge to come into play and stay alive. As for the 2 Dredge cards, I feel like they're important to the decks game plan. Not only does loam allow us to abuse Wasteland but it adds food for Deathrite if he sticks around long enough. As for darkblast it can be very handy removal not only once again to feed the shaman but to get loam into the yard. The meta as it stands still has a ton of important X/1's that must be removed and darkblast add's a twist since it becomes a re-usable resource that benefits the decks game plan. This means possibly limiting the need of using a swords or abrupt decay later in the game for unflipped delver's, Bob's, Noble (keeping them off mana), Snapcaster and more. I feel like 2 dredge card's work atm though I'll admit I'd like more but cannot find room. I'm quite tried from work so I'm going to stop my post short (sorry long day). As I said I'm going to keep working on this and I know there's room for improvement but the list is feeling very solid vs a good chunk of the field.

Edit: I'd like to add one thing. This deck plays weak vs. very heavy aggro if it has a bad start, this is something I'm trying to figure out. The goblins match is horrid.

---Cheers Jon

[sdematt]

If you want to shore up against "aggro," run either Zealous Persecution or Path to Exile in the board to slow them down.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Fakedylan: Keeping with the theme of the day, I would classify your deck as a Rock list instead of a Junk list. Heavy removal, lower discard, library manipulation and recursion are all going to lend to a slower game that want to play through the mid game to win. This would also explain your weakness to fast decks in your deck wants to get past the early rush and win. I would suggest tarmogoyfs and the full set of plows as first steps to beat fast aggro. If goyfs are not an option then a set of paths in the board would help in the first few turns.

I am not trying to be a douche with the names, I just think it will help us grow as a rock community. With similar names/classifications you will have better results in comparing your lists to other lists similar to yours, and in this case it would be other rock lists like SDEmatts. It will also help new players develop their deck lists in certain directions.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I used to play this deck a couple of years back (before dark horizons was an established archetype) and played a tempo-ish mid-range deck with sinkholes and vindicates. I've since moved away from this sort of deck in general, but I've always had a soft-spot in my heart for these mid-range GBW decks. Since it seems like this deck got a lot of new toys with RTR (most noticably DR Shaman and Abrupt Decay), I just brewed up a more aggressive-ish midrange list and after some goldfishing it seems like it may run alright.

18 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic

20 Spells:
3x Lingering Souls
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind (I'm not sure if this is the correct choice for this slot--I was thinking that SoLaS may work)

22 Lands:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windwepth Heath
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Gaea's Cradle
3x Wasteland

I decided to run a total of 7x 3cc cards because the DR shaman ramp is sometimes a bit sporadic and he really seems to be at his best when pinging for 2 and eating opponents' graveyards. I'm also a bit torn on whether the goyfs should be in the deck--I was considering a replacement of 3x scavenging ooze and 1x stoneforge mystic. SoBaM then feeds the ooze+dr shamans.

A cool thing that i noticed was that cradle is pretty good with lingering souls--a single copy of souls usually turns cradle into a GGGG producer (which also helps ooze if I were to run them).

I decided against liliana for two main reasons: 1) she's another 3cc which hurts the curve and 2) her discard is too symmetrical without recursion to break it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. =)

[sdematt]

Life from the Loam could help break the symmetry.

-Matt

[somethingdotdotdot]

I know loam breaks the symmetry, but then the question becomes what do I take out for the 2-3 lili's and 1-2 loams. The deck itself also doesn't really need loam that much, with the only real targets being wastelands and maybe a fetchland or two to stabilize. It doesn't really play that well with DR shaman or KoTR most of the time and I don't really get that much value off of it when I'm running it just to support a 2-of. I personally think the souls are better than the lili's right now to pressure jace and trade with cliques.

[sdematt]

I know loam breaks the symmetry, but then the question becomes what do I take out for the 2-3 lili's and 1-2 loams. The deck itself also doesn't really need loam that much, with the only real targets being wastelands and maybe a fetchland or two to stabilize. It doesn't really play that well with DR shaman or KoTR most of the time and I don't really get that much value off of it when I'm running it just to support a 2-of. I personally think the souls are better than the lili's right now to pressure jace and trade with cliques.

I agree, I'm just saying if you wanted to, Loam would help :P

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).
The fact is, I don't know what to go for: mox + goyf, or shaman + sfm, or maybe try to fit mox + shaman + goyf....? I know it all depends on my list and on the meta. As for the list, it's basically the same shell (I'll post it again), and on the meta there is 1 dredge, 1-3 gw, 2 esperblades, 1-2 burn, 1-2 merfolk, 1-3 goblins, a few combo decks (can't measure exactly). There may be also some rogue decks or variations (well, duh).

The basic shell:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
3 sensei's divining top
4 plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
2 liliana of the veil
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

from here it goes:
+3 mox diamond
+4 tarmogoyf
+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 garruk relentless

OR

+3 deathrite shaman
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte
+1 sword of fire and ice
+1 batterskull

The lands are as usual:
4 waste
8 fetches
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp

The shaman build leaves more sb space, since I won't need to run rest for the weary nor bojuka bog. I'm also running 2 deeds, 2 plagues, 2-3 o-rings, 3 extirpate/surgical, 3 hymn to tourach.

I know the mox+goyf build is retarded against combo, and is also way faster. But I'm afraid shaman will make goyf lose value, and it is also tempting to strap some equipment on any extra body that appears in the deck.

So, well, maybe I'm asking too much, but it's hard to decide :p every suggestion/comment will be welcome! (PS: I actually tested both versions, and I like both)

[lavafrogg]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).


I am not sure how I feel about my opinion being already known, but I guess I am proud that I am that opinionated online.

[Valtrix]

I think SFM is very strong against most decks, especially for this deck since he can often be protected through discard. As such, I personally would like to see SFM in the list, regardless of the other choices. I don't really like Mox Diamond in this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Hierarch, and GSZ -> Dryad Arbor all seem like superior mana acceleration choices to me since they don't give you card disadvantage, and they feel much more consistent. Plus, they can turn into guys holding a Jitte later. I like to look at it this way: How many games do you think having an extra mana turn one is going to matter more than having an extra land in the long run? To me it seems like very few games will actually be won by having that extra mana on turn one, compared to just having consistent mana drops on your turns.

[Hanni]

I think SFM is very strong against most decks, especially for this deck since he can often be protected through discard. As such, I personally would like to see SFM in the list, regardless of the other choices. I don't really like Mox Diamond in this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Hierarch, and GSZ -> Dryad Arbor all seem like superior mana acceleration choices to me since they don't give you card disadvantage, and they feel much more consistent. Plus, they can turn into guys holding a Jitte later. I like to look at it this way: How many games do you think having an extra mana turn one is going to matter more than having an extra land in the long run? To me it seems like very few games will actually be won by having that extra mana on turn one, compared to just having consistent mana drops on your turns.

And with Shaman, no horrible useless topdecks.

[lavafrogg]

Yay, talking about SFM AND Shaman!!!

The SFM build is good against everything except combo where you just want a goyf to beat face. The fast aggro match is mostly a push in that goyf would wall the aggro while SFM can get a jitte to equip to and dude you have available to wreck aggro. The way to shore up the combo match up is to run the disruptalicious Cabal Therapy and learn how to hit blind against 75% of your matches, this is made easier by the fact that you are running shaman and dryad arbor as flashback fodder.

So with shaman producing all colors of mana, would the idea of splashing red and siding in a life from the loam and blasts be an option against Show and Tell? I am trying to find a way to beat the hell out of that deck. The loam will ensure that we cannot get wasted off of red and the blasts will counter any show and tell that gets through the discard wall and could also kill jace in other matches...It is most likely a terrible idea...

[Sughayyer]

Frog, against sneak & show I think the deck's already optimal. One of the tournaments I won when I was playing dark horizons there were 3 of them and were easy wins, even when they misdirected hymn (it happened 2 or 3 times). Now, agains omniscience, 3 o-ring are enough. Or if the meta is small and you feel you can spare a few sb slots, run angel of despair, and get ready to laugh.

[Sughayyer]

Edit functions don't seem to work.

Frog, if you test with red, post results. I once tried to add blue (snapcaster and brainstorm) but I gave up (I had to forfeit the moxen to fit it all, and 4 colors without any fixing felt scary)

[Mirrislegend]

The power of Mox Diamond lies in your two drops:
- If you play Mox and a turn 1 Tarmogoyf, nobody cares
- Mox into turn 1 Stoneforge makes any opponent shit their britches

Despite the anti-synergy, I believe Shaman belongs in Goyf builds over SFM builds. Consider these important aspects that SFM brings to the table, that Goyf builds lack: Life gain, effective card advantage, utility, and inevitability. Shaman fills these holes in a SFM-less deck.

Thus, from the perspective of playing to Mox's strengths or shoring up Goyf's weaknesses, I present this advice to Sug. Pick between these two packages:

3 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 flex

or

3 Mox
3 Stoneforge
3 equipment

These choices will be stronger. Which one to pick is vey much a personal choice in my opinion. Either will work.

[sdematt]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).
The fact is, I don't know what to go for: mox + goyf, or shaman + sfm, or maybe try to fit mox + shaman + goyf....? I know it all depends on my list and on the meta. As for the list, it's basically the same shell (I'll post it again), and on the meta there is 1 dredge, 1-3 gw, 2 esperblades, 1-2 burn, 1-2 merfolk, 1-3 goblins, a few combo decks (can't measure exactly). There may be also some rogue decks or variations (well, duh).



What about:

-2 Liliana of the Veil

+3 tarmogoyf
+1 garruk relentless
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte
+1 sword of fire and ice

Then, you lose Mox, but you get to have a sprinkling of everything. I know I was slightly against this with Ian's list a bit before, but he was also running Mox and jamming 0-1 Goyf, which I didn't like. This gives you a bit of both. I'm not a huge fan of SFM since I don't feel like I need it really anymore, but if I was adding in 4 slots, SFM would be up on the list.


Frog, if you test with red, post results. I once tried to add blue (snapcaster and brainstorm) but I gave up (I had to forfeit the moxen to fit it all, and 4 colors without any fixing felt scary)

I ran red a while ago if you guys remember, taking out something to add in a Badlands, but now with Deathrite, that might not even be necessary. I ran it for Ancient Grudge, and for the meta at the time, it was fine. I'm just not sure how consistent you'll be with it. I think it would be better to stay in 3 colours unless you're splashing for a singleton ballbusting sideboard card., but if you're hoping your Deathrites are going to let you cast 4 REB out of the board, I think you're going to have a bad time hoping your plan comes together.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Life from the Loam could help break the symmetry.

-Matt

As does one of the best green drops of all time: Eternal Witness

[Mr. Safety]

Mr Safety: The problem with your list is hymn. Hymn is an aggro card but your list definitely wants the game to go long, this is also seen in your high removal and recursion plan. You cannot end the game before the hymn advantage wears off so you are most likely better dropping hymn. Once you do that you are pretty much textbook rock with a heavier GSZ toolbox.

I'm interested to continue this line of discussion, because I dropped the heavy loam focus (down to 1) and put in a 2nd Liliana, a Garruk Relentless, and a set of Hymns to replace the Loam/Raven's Crime package I was using.

In testing so far, I would say that Hymn fills in a crucial segment of the curve by having a strong turn 2 play. I could get behind dropping 1-2 Hymns for Sylvan Library, but that would be for a different reason than the one you mentioned (to get some filtering into the deck.) Maybe its time to pull the same trick that sdematt recommends and put the Hymns into the sideboard. That frees up 3 slots maindeck because I dropped one for Kitchen Finks. I've been playtesting a one-of maindeck as a GSZ target, and I have to say that it really suits my position on the 'sliding Rock scale.' My version gets stronger the longer the game goes, and Kitchen Finks has really been doing some great work for me. I ended up dropping the 4th Hymn for that, so three slots left. I'll most likely get a 3rd Phyrexian Arena into the maindeck, so it's really 2 slots...space fills up fast in this deck!

Suggestions? I could go Sylvan Library, SDT, or even Mirri's Guile.

[Mirrislegend]

@ Mr. Safety:

It cannot be Mirri's Guile. You can only chose between Sylvan Library or SDT. Both have their strengths, but Guile matches up to neither of them.

As for more specific advice on other card choices, can we see your list?

[Hanni]

It cannot be Mirri's Guile. You can only chose between Sylvan Library or SDT. Both have their strengths, but Guile matches up to neither of them.

As for more specific advice on other card choices, can we see your list?

In a more tempo-oriented list, I see nothing wrong with Mirris Guile (hehe). It's not like you're running CounterTop and need to spin top multiple times a turn, and while the draw on Sylvan is nice against Control, the difference in initial mana cost will be more relevant in aggro matchups. There are obvious advantages for both Top and Sylvan, as they are clearly stronger spells... but mana efficiency is pretty important too.

[Mr. Safety]

4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kitchen Finks

3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Phyrexian Arena
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Life from the Loam

2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1 x Bojuka Bog
4x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Cabal Pit
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland

[Mirrislegend]

I don't see the Hymns. Just missing a 60th card by my count.

Yea, Library and/or Top is definitely in order here. Given your relatively low number of shuffle effects, I'm going to say you cannot abuse Top to it's fullest. Hence, Library might be in order. On the flip side, Top plays pretty nicely with Loam (tap top, replacement of draw, top goes on top after dredge, right?). If that does work, maybe you should pick Top, just cuz it doesn't die to Deed (which is a very critical part of your build)

[Valtrix]

So, first off let me preface this by saying that I don’t have a ton of experience with BWG decks, so some of my comments might be uninformed. However, I’ve been toying with a decklist recently that I really like, and wanted some thoughts on it.

In constructing a decklist in BGW I had a few things which I thought were very important to me, which actually almost constructed the list by itself:

I wanted to a strong game against creature decks. As such, I looked to Stoneforge Mystic to fill this role. Furthermore, Stoneforge mystic is great against control decks, so his inclusion seems like a strong choice in a lot of matchups. In fact I like him pretty much all games you aren’t against combo.
I like to have interaction against “unfair” decks, so I wanted to lean towards a decent amount of discard. I also noted that SFM becomes quite a powerhouse when backed up with targeted hand removal, since you can more reliably get a Batterskull online without your opponent being able to deal with it very easily.
I like some amount of ramp. My biggest problem with ramp though is that such cards become less good later. I think this is alleviated a bit by equipment, but it also led me to wanting to play Green Sun’s Zenith -> Dryad arbor as my main form of acceleration, since GSZ can be converted into value/utility creatures later in the game. Shaman is also pretty good, but I don’t like him in multiples and I think more cards can provide a lot more value. I also like that you can GSZ graveyard hate on turn 2 and to have the little extra bit of acceleration, so I just opt for one copy of Deathrite Shaman.
I also like utility, so this cemented GSZ for me, since it gives just enough options at an aggressive cost. I just didn’t want to run too much utility, so I thought that Pridemage and Teeg were the only worthwhile creatures to run just to fetch with Zenith.
I like a high density of creatures that can close the game quickly. Knight does the most in this role, but Tarmogoyf and Scavenging ooze fills a nice supporting role too. I like to have a good density of creatures that are just going to end the game quickly.
As such, I don’t care for creatures like Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, etc. because I don’t need to fiddle around with stuff like that when I can just bash for 4+ and end the game quickly.
I like efficient answers to cards my opponents play, but I don’t really like paying very much for such answers, even if they’re flexible. Swords is a natural inclusion in white because of efficiency, with Abrupt Decay coming in as the next best answer to play. I just don’t think you really want to be in a place where you’re casting 3cc removal, so I skipped most of that.
I like some late game/card advantage potential, so I thought the 2 libraries would work well to fit this role.


This led me to the following:

// Lands (22)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [M11] Forest (3)
1 [CST] Plains (2)
3 [R] Savannah
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor


The curve is 15 1cc, 17 2cc, 5 3cc. I feel this is a bit heavy on the 2cc for the mana producers to handle, so I think perhaps cutting one of the 2cc cards or maybe the 3 cost sword for another land might be in order. (By the way, I like the 3rd piece of equipment in the main, just not sure what sword is best.) Don’t look too much into the sideboard, it’s basically a generic sideboard I make when putting new lists together: “Answer combo, answer control, strengthen creature MUs, answer GY strategies, and have some versatile answers.”

So, no fancy tricks with removal or planeswalkers, mostly just good stuff. Like I said, I don’t really play this deck, so I could be completely off, but I’ve always liked this color combination and got excited putting a list together. It seems a bit more basic than a lot of lists I see here, but I like the simplicity the list brings: Play some disruption, have some flexible and cheap answers, and be able to dominate the combat phase with some very powerful creatures. Feel free the bash my thoughts and/or my list.

[KobeBryan]

I have a question...Why do you only use 1 deathrite shamen?

I know you have 4 green suns, but 1 deathrite? Are you using deathrite for ramping or for GY shenanigans?

[Sughayyer]

@ Valtrix

It feels a bit strange without dark confidant.... also, you could use some maelstrom pulse. It kills jace, and makes you not lose against a resolved entreat the angels or empty the warrens.

As for the sword, may I suggest fire and ice? It's NUTS.

Anyway, it seems a good start, please post results!

[ToasTer86]

Hey everyone,

The rock was the 2nd legacy deck I ever played against.
I came in with my standard / kitchen table deck and was just annihilated.
EVA Green / the rock got me interested in legacy and in the meanwhile i played budget decks.

Now I would really like to start playing the rock but i've been hearing bad things

Can you guys tell me how The Rock is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

Thanks

[Sughayyer]

Hey, I finally come up with a list. Online testings (as non-reliable as they are) seems satisfactory. There's a tourney sunday, hopefully I'll have some great news.

[sdematt]

Now I would really like to start playing the rock but i've been hearing bad things

Can you guys tell me how The Rock is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

What bad things have you been hearing? I think the Rock is getting a ton better with the new options of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay.

I think the lists that I've seen that I've liked the most are:

// Lands (22)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [M11] Forest (3)
1 [CST] Plains (2)
3 [R] Savannah
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [LG] Sylvan Library

If you're planning a SFM route.

4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kitchen Finks

3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Phyrexian Arena
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Life from the Loam

2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1 x Bojuka Bog
4x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Cabal Pit
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland


If you want a more control-based route.

Hanni's list if you're looking for very fast Junk.

And probably, lastly, either Ian or my own lists for hybrids in between.

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

OR

// Lands (23)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker


// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless


-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I don't see the Hymns. Just missing a 60th card by my count.

Yea, Library and/or Top is definitely in order here. Given your relatively low number of shuffle effects, I'm going to say you cannot abuse Top to it's fullest. Hence, Library might be in order. On the flip side, Top plays pretty nicely with Loam (tap top, replacement of draw, top goes on top after dredge, right?). If that does work, maybe you should pick Top, just cuz it doesn't die to Deed (which is a very critical part of your build)

Hymns were left out deliberately, and i typically run 61 cards, which is why I have 2 slots available (also why you counted 59 cards.) Also, there is only 3x Wastelands and there is 1x Dryad Arbor in the list (that's what happens when you do it by memory...doh!)

My fundamental inclination is to put in Library...but as you say, it gets wrecked by Deed. The inclusion of maindeck Deeds was also the biggest reason (other than budgetary constraints) for using Phyrexian Arena...I can still deed for 2 and keep my draw engine. I think 2x SDT is probably where I will start. In the worst case I can always just do a blind draw off the top after activating Deed so I don't lose the long-term filtering.

So with Hymn to the sideboard, this is what I'm looking at for cards 62-76:

3x Hymn to Tourach (aggro, aggro-control, combo)
4x Leyline of Sanctity (burn, storm)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell)
1x Thrun, the Last Troll (some decks just can't beat Thrun)
1x Gaddock Teeg (combo)
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Tormod's Crypt

[Mr. Safety]

I don't see the Hymns. Just missing a 60th card by my count.

Yea, Library and/or Top is definitely in order here. Given your relatively low number of shuffle effects, I'm going to say you cannot abuse Top to it's fullest. Hence, Library might be in order. On the flip side, Top plays pretty nicely with Loam (tap top, replacement of draw, top goes on top after dredge, right?). If that does work, maybe you should pick Top, just cuz it doesn't die to Deed (which is a very critical part of your build)

Hymns were left out deliberately, and i typically run 61 cards, which is why I have 2 slots available (also why you counted 59 cards.) Also, there is only 3x Wastelands and there is 1x Dryad Arbor in the list (that's what happens when you do it by memory...doh!)

My fundamental inclination is to put in Library...but as you say, it gets wrecked by Deed. The inclusion of maindeck Deeds was also the biggest reason (other than budgetary constraints) for using Phyrexian Arena...I can still deed for 2 and keep my draw engine. I think 2x SDT is probably where I will start. In the worst case I can always just do a blind draw off the top after activating Deed so I don't lose the long-term filtering.

So with Hymn to the sideboard, this is what I'm looking at for cards 62-76:

3x Hymn to Tourach (aggro, aggro-control, combo)
4x Leyline of Sanctity (burn, storm)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell)
1x Thrun, the Last Troll (some decks just can't beat Thrun + discard, but mostly control)
1x Gaddock Teeg (combo)
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Nihil Spellbomb

[Fakedylan]

Hey Mr. Safety you play over at Crossroad's ever?

Btw that Greenleaf quote is classic Greenleaf nonsense...

[sdematt]

Almost took down the local monthly Legacy. I went undefeated into the finals but lost to Goblins. Game 1 wasn't even close, Game 2 was somewhat close but I drew nothings, and game 3 I got stuck on two lands and he had the God draw. I played my normal list against 43 Lands, Maverick, and Gobbos.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Grats on the close finish Matt!

In other news I won a 34 man tourney last night playing my GSZ/DRS build, more to come.

[Deckerator]

I played in a small tournament last weekend. My list was with green sun+ stoneforge. I lost to U/R-Delver, RUG and Painter-Stone
My problem was my sideboard. For the next time i want to prepared for those decks. What cards are good sideboard cards against them? and how to board best. I have changed my maindeck a bit. I will post it soon.

[ryn ball_2]

Hello guys i'm back from the grave (too much work related things to make me so busy), i participated a 17-men legacy yesterday and went 6th place standing. Testing out a build that doesnt use mox diamond, in place for the diamonds i used deathrite shaman (after weighing w/c is a good topdeck in the middlegame or late game) so i give the shaman a shot, here's my list:

4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
2 deathrite shaman

4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
3 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares

2 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
3 sensei's divining top

2 bayou
2 scrubland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 volrath's stronghold

//sideboard
4 timely reinforcements
2 extirpate
2 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog
2 choke
2 perish
2 engineered plague

R1 vs UR delver: 2-0, timely reinforcements FTW
R2 vs UG infect: 1-2, pithing needle for my deeds on third game :cry:
R3 vs manaless dredge: 2-0, game 1 turn 1 shaman rocks!
R4 vs MBC: 1-2, too much hate on my lands, surgicals my verdant, sinkholes my basics, wastes on my duals :cry: and came up to the point i was overrun by 2 nighthawks

On the shaman, 2-offs on my deck w/c i cant give anything relevant notes atm maybe i will drop my 2nd thoughtseize and replace it w/ my 3rd shaman (will act as 3 mox diamonds) and maybe i will stick at the shaman leaving my diamonds on my binder.

Few notes on my deck, i run 4 basics since i dont have mox diamond (w/c is resistant to wasteland) w/c i think a stable manabase together w/ 4 duals (my preference). As consequence of 4 basics i run 2 deeds and 1 EE to stall aggro w/c i feel so comfortable (after the tourney i tested this list against merfolk deck w/o SB w/c turns out a really handy match up) and also a good match up for UR delver and UG infect (on the 2nd game). About the SB it is a anticipated one on the meta i was facing in my local, gobs, burn, affinity, maverick, nic fit to name a few so it turns out to be like that but i will remake my SB this coming nov. 10 big event w/c miracles are present. About Liliana sometimes her +1 ability is so symmetrical it hurts me alot so atm i took her away from my 75 but back in my mind i like to do -2 seize, +2 liliana. About 4 inquisition of kozilek, still for me it is puzzling to drop seize and replace w/ IOK cuz most of the decks i'm facing run 3 cmc or less w/c turns out sometimes i grab ponder via thoughtseize w/ -2 life (that -2 life in ponder is so meaningless) so atm i run 4 IOK jamming w/ 2 seize.
Thats all atm i think i'm started loving the shaman even he showed up only in my dredge match up (quite a hero :tongue:).

[ryn ball_2]

I played in a small tournament last weekend. My list was with green sun+ stoneforge. I lost to U/R-Delver, RUG and Painter-Stone
My problem was my sideboard. For the next time i want to prepared for those decks. What cards are good sideboard cards against them? and how to board best. I have changed my maindeck a bit. I will post it soon.

Vs UR delver/RUG: timely reinforcements (i'm totally crazy about this card! this card saved me from near death experience :smile:)
Vs painter-stone: some disruptions in the form of hymns, IOK, seize, extirpate on grindstone and if you run e-tutor SB needle on the grindstone seem's good

[lavafrogg]

Okay, from the other day before I forget/lose my notes: 4 rounds cut to top 8.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quasali Pridemage

Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Lilliana of the Veil

Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou


1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 Choke
3 Judge's Familiar
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile

Round 1: Goblins 2-1 WLW Game 1 was a quick SFM plus equip with discard on his removal. Jitte wrecked face. Game 2 I ate a perish with a board of Shaman and Knights. Bouncing Batterskull, Removal, Lilliana edicts and Shaman life gain wore him down.

Round 2: RUG 2-0 WW Game 1 he called Shaman unplayable and then had to waste 2 bolts to kill 2 of them that were keeping him off of threshold. Goyfs stayed small and delvers quickly decayed...pretty easy.

Round 3: Reanimator 2-1 LWW Game 1 I had a turn 2 griselbrand when I played turn 1 shaman...must be nice. Games 2 and 3 he had non turn 2 hands and I had an ooze online by the time it mattered.

Round 4: RUG 2-1 WLW Game 1 I had a land heavy draw and just played SFM into Confidant into Knight into ooze and he ran out of answers. Game 2 is why RUG is good play a dude, counter that, play a dude, bolt that, play a dude, counter that....Game three I thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, flashback Therapy...you have no hand. gg.

Semi: Maverick 2-0 WW Game one I kept his Oozes off the table or kept them too small to matter. Shaman ate lands and a jitte cleared his board. Game 2 I brought in Batterskull/Sword of L and S and more removal and played the control plan. Lilliana cleaned up the rest when she ultimate for half of his stuff.

Quarter: Goblins 2-1 LWW Game One he tarfired my shaman and got in with a lackey for a ringleader which hit awesome. Games 2 and 3 I brought in more equipment and more removal, eventually I got a sword on a dude and went to town.

Finals: Show and Tell 2-1 LWW Game one I had a early wasteland, thoughtseize and saw double show and tell, double emrakul...eat shit... Game 2 and 3 I brought in Judge's Familiars(finally) and cabal therapies and played the super mana denial role. Game 2 he had to stop a turn to get 1 more mana for the familiar and I was able to pridemage the omniscience but any other hate card would have worked. Game 3 Early wasteland, familiar and discard allowed me to fill the board with teeg, karakas, pridemage and familiars for the old school weenie beat down plan. His wish for sweeper was massacre...

On Shaman: Card is dumb... I stand by my opinion. I only saw scryb ranger once or twice and she did nothing, not mad about it as she is for decks I didn't see although it would have been nice to block a delver all day...

On familiar: could have been any other hate card... Most likely going to be Thalia for first strike.

[Sughayyer]

Congratz frog!

Family issues (mother on hospital) prevented me from attending last week's tournament. Hopefully I'll be able to play again soon

[sdematt]

Two Rock decks did well recently in Italy in two different tournaments. One was the token version with Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom and the other one was Dark Maverick.

Yay!

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Mr. Safety you play over at Crossroad's ever?

Btw that Greenleaf quote is classic Greenleaf nonsense...

No I don't...but if you're in the Portland area, I'm only about 20 minutes away in New Gloucester. It intrigues me.

Greenleaf was revolutionary in his philosophy in communication; you'll never convince me otherwise. It isn't nonsense if you've read anything from him, such as 'The Servant as Leader' and other essays.

[paladin3056]

Two Rock decks did well recently in Italy in two different tournaments. One was the token version with Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom and the other one was Dark Maverick.

Yay!

-Matt

Do you have a link to the deck list? Thanks!

[sdematt]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68225

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9364&iddeck=68360

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68225

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68225

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9364&iddeck=68360

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68225

-Matt

There are a lot of deathrite shaman in those three lists...

[Stuuch]

I belive that one tournament there took place in Denmark not Italy. But anyways good results for this deck. Those list are quite odd though for my taste.

[Claymore]

They also don't have KotR, second one has Vraska x1, Thrun x2...very odd.

[sdematt]

I just pulled up the last few ones just for our considerations. You can also see what metagames they placed in by looking below the decklist.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

There are a lot of deathrite shaman in those three lists...

I am 100% convinced that the right number is 4, even if you're committed to GSZ. I just bought the other 3 I needed for the set.

[AggroSteve]

I was away from magic now for a while, because i startet my diplomathesis at universit.
I would love to hear everybodies thoughts on shaman and decay, but specially on shaman

i still run a dark horizons list, my question would be if it would be viable switching my mox diamond for shamans (i run a full set of diamonds with 61 cards MD). I was wondering if anybody did allredy test this configuration.
Other question would be, if i went for the full set of shamans, do you guys think it would be also necessary using some GSZ in the list, is hymn MD still a good choice if i have no more diamonds, or should i cut them for more pinpoint-discard and maybe some copies of jitte or other removal.
All in all my question could be summariced as, is there maybe an optimal list featuring multiple shamans without GSZ that may not be too different to a dark horizons list

thanks in advance

[.Ix]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68225

Hmm this deck is interesting. It's Deadguy Ale with Tarmogoyf. My deck used to run Tidehollow Scullers as well, but I took them out. Maybe when I get Deathrites I can cut some Ooze for Scullers.

[ryn ball_2]

I was away from magic now for a while, because i startet my diplomathesis at universit.
I would love to hear everybodies thoughts on shaman and decay, but specially on shaman

i still run a dark horizons list, my question would be if it would be viable switching my mox diamond for shamans (i run a full set of diamonds with 61 cards MD). I was wondering if anybody did allredy test this configuration.
Other question would be, if i went for the full set of shamans, do you guys think it would be also necessary using some GSZ in the list, is hymn MD still a good choice if i have no more diamonds, or should i cut them for more pinpoint-discard and maybe some copies of jitte or other removal.
All in all my question could be summariced as, is there maybe an optimal list featuring multiple shamans without GSZ that may not be too different to a dark horizons list

thanks in advance

I did, i used dark horizon too, in my list -3 mox diamond, +2 deathrite,+1 EE, +2 seize, -2 liliana, here is my list
4 bob, 4 goyf, 4 KOTR, 2 shaman
4 IOK, 2 seize, 4 hymn
3 pulse, 4 stp, 2 deed, 1 EE
3 SDT
2 bayou, 2 scrubs
2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
8 fetches
3 waste, 1 volrath, 1 karakas, 1 maze, 1 bog

I scored 2-2 from a 4 round 15 men landed on 6th (i think, i forget the exactness)
R1 vs UR delver: 2-0
R2 vs UG infect: 1-2, needle on my deed at 3rd round :cry:
R3 vs dredge: 2-0, turn 1 shaman on game 1 rocks
R4 vs MBC: 1-2, too much hate on my lands sinkholes there, waste here, surgicals on my fetches

The list w/ hymn is still great w/o mox diamond still i can go off 1 hymn and 1 seize/IOK on turn 2 via shaman and 2 lands just like turn 1 hymn via mox and turn 2 seize.
I dont max out shaman's ability except for the dredge match up, reasons limited draws on him (just 2-off in my deck), will try 3-off on the future matches.
That list is kinda rough, my future plan is 3 shaman for my 3 mox and bring back 2 liliana plus 1 land to make 61 MD w/c hopefully i can test this list on my long vacation (off from work) :smile:
I think running w/o GSZ the number of shaman must be 2 or up so that there is a high chance of probability the shaman will drop, on the GSZ route 1 shaman is good to make room for other utilities, just my thoughts about it i might be wrong.

[defector]

I like 4 shaman. Testing a more mav centered version right now, but love 4 shaman. He blocks lackey and lives, eats stp while costing opp 2 life, keeps opposing kotr honest and gives a lil life gain to bob and the aggro mu. Whats not to love? I'm starting to think that if you cant activate shaman in at least one way then you've already won. Could be that ive fallen for the new girl at school, but damn! Get in there with 4:)

[Apollo]

I won a small tourny playing Rock (SFM version) and 4 Abrupt MB was an all-star, it allowed me to play the grindy tempo game I needed to stabilize and takeover. I definitely like Shaman, though I love Scavanging Ooze and would always keep 1 to GSZ, he can play the dual role of GY hate and huge creature in some matchups.

[lavafrogg]

Grats everyone with their recent success with the GBW Rock lists!!

Also

Happy Halloween!

[OCPunisher]

I recently played a very controlling version of The Rock in a pair of 4-round Legacy events at local shops.

First, the list I played:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
(12)

3 Liliana of the Veil
(3)

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
(5)

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls
(10)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
(6)

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah (this could have been anything...Cavern, Canopy, etc)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
(24)

Side:
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Sinkhole
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke

My favorite card by far in this list is Deathrite Shaman. That card is just awesome in every single way.

The first event was last week Saturday. I went 3-1, beating Nic Fit, BUG Delver, and something else I can't remember. My only loss was in round 3 vs BUG Delver, mostly due to double Stifle + Snapcaster for another Stifle.

The second event was last night.
- I started off with a win against Dredge (he mulliganed a lot, and I had turn one Deathrite Shaman both games) and a win against UW enchantment control (featuring RIP + Helm and a lot of E-Tutor targets).
- Then I lost against BUG Delver, mostly because I decided to cast a turn one Deathrite Shaman into an obvious Daze instead of leading with Inquisition.
- I'm pretty sure I should have also sided in Zealous Persecution, since I eventually lost to double Mongoose.
- Honestly, I'm not really sure how I should be boarding against that matchup.
- Finally, I lost to Sneak Show because she answered my Sinkhole/Vindicate plan with Misdirection, which was a pretty big blowout.

Again, I'm really not sure how to board against the BUG Delver lists. None of my main-deck cards seem bad, except maybe a couple of Vindicates, since Abrupt Decay is cheaper and faster. Perhaps I should take out the discard spells in favor of Deeds/Chokes/Persecutions?

Also, is it normal for combo decks like Sneak Show to be running Misdirections?

[Mr. Safety]

I would categorize your version in the tempo/Junk area...it is definately trying to stifle tempo then land a threat and ride it. With Lingering Souls and Jitte, you're playing a more aggro-oriented build as well. I'm not saying I don't like the list...I just don't think it's control. Definately tempo, hovering in the Junk range.

[Mr. Safety]

I like 4 shaman. Testing a more mav centered version right now, but love 4 shaman. He blocks lackey and lives, eats stp while costing opp 2 life, keeps opposing kotr honest and gives a lil life gain to bob and the aggro mu. Whats not to love? I'm starting to think that if you cant activate shaman in at least one way then you've already won. Could be that ive fallen for the new girl at school, but damn! Get in there with 4:)

Are you using Scryb Ranger? I've been debating a test of 1x Scryb Ranger to go with the 4 Shamans, replacing Scavenging Ooze actually.

[Vilhis]

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman


How does these two work with each other?