[Deck] The Rock [Archive] - Page 16

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ryn ball_2

11-03-2012, 09:17 AM

hello guys i brought my dark horizon-like list w/ shaman on it instead of mox diamond here's the list:
4 bob 4 goyf 4 KOTR 3 shaman
4 IOK 4 hymn to tourach 2 liliana of the veil
3 pulse 4 swords 2 pernicious deed
3 SDT
2 bayou 2 scrub
2 swamp 1 forest 1 plains
4 verdant 4 marsh
3 wasteland
1 karakas 1 maze 1 bog 1 volrath

R1 vs elves: 2-0; deeds ftw, even i'm tapped out after i played my deeds and my opponent has lots of 1 drop creatures i managed to clean the board thanks to active shaman 1st ability! :smile:

R2 vs dutch stax: 0-2; armaggedon plus moat plus elspeth hurts so much :cry:

R3 vs UR delver: 2-1; thanks again to shaman! i managed to catch up on damage by burning him thanks to 2nd ability and gaining life 3rd ability w/ an online 2 shaman and 3 6/6 KOTR

R4 vs MBC: 0-2; unanswerable bob sticks on his side and generate massive card advantage :cry:

making it 2-2 this sunday small legacy tourney

thanks guys!

lavafrogg

11-03-2012, 04:33 PM

How does these two work with each other?

Amazingly well. you really only activate the mana ability from your own graveyard once or twice a game and that is usually to cast a knight in the first place. After that, knight becomes a wasteland machine and you eat land from your opponents graveyard and call it a game. Knights size is really only relevant before he hits 6 and after that he is just a 2 hitting machine. From 4-5-6 he kills in 3-4 hits(less if he has help) and a active shaman can also "swing" for 2 points a round(more with scryb) if the knight cannot get there.

Also, scryb ranger is boss right now, with Shaman, Knight and equipment...the only thing i missing are mom's for super protection.

Mr. Safety

11-03-2012, 09:13 PM

Also, scryb ranger is boss right now, with Shaman, Knight and equipment...the only thing i missing are mom's for super protection.

This would be G/W/b Maverick, no?

lavafrogg

11-04-2012, 12:26 AM

This would be G/W/b Maverick, no?

Sorry, sarcasm doesnt translate well online:p

Kyle

11-04-2012, 12:28 AM

lavafrogg

11-04-2012, 01:52 AM

Is Deathrite Shaman really a replacement for Scavenging Ooze? Ooze can singlehandedly destroy graveyard strategies without having to tap it, which I think is a big deal. For instance, I played against a LED Dredge player today and the only thing I had out was an Ooze and enough green mana and I grew him to 13/13 and prevented my opponent from really getting anywhere. Maybe a really narrow argument, but Ooze works reliably and well against Dredge, RUG, Snapcaster.dec, Reanimator, etc...

Don't get me wrong, Shaman is really powerful, but is it really a replacement? Also, it's not going to provide you the mana-acceleration of Mox Diamond, which is what I think Rock/Junk decks require. I guess it must be the versatility that makes Shaman that good?

Is it also because Ooze sucks balls in multiples? Shaman is super-awesome when you have 2 or more of them out, but I don't expect them to last in play very long.

Ramble, ramble, troll, troll, shut up. Goodnight fellow junkies.

No one has ever said that shaman replaces ooze. Compare them on a graveyard hating level and ooze wins every time when you hav the time and the mana to invest. That being said, you can play a shaman on turn one and have it active on turn 2. If you draw your one of ooze it will be active on turn three at the earliest and turn four if you have to zenith for it. I am pretty sure a reanimator or dredge player can win before then.

More later I'm headed to the bar

Okay back to finish response.

Dredge does hate to see a turn three scavenging ooze, if they haven't won yet. A turn one shaman goes a long way in ensuring you get to activate your ooze.

People comparing Shaman to specific cards it emulates will always side with the emulated card as being more powerful. That being said, Scavenging Ooze will never give you mana, mox diamond will never kill your opponent and tormod's crypt will never gain you life. Shaman is a card that has never been made before in its colors and with its effects, he is insanely powerful and has uses against every archetype and flat out hoses many decks.

As for mana acceleration in Rock/Junk decks, play 4 GSZ, 1 Dryad Arbor and 4 Deathrite Shaman and let me know how the mana acceleration feels compared to the old standard of 3 Mox Diamond. With Shaman you actually get to play more acceleration without running more dead cards. I will concede that you will never play a confidant turn one, but you will land turn two knights/lillianas/SFM+discard on a regular basis....real first world problems if you ask me.

ryn ball_2

11-04-2012, 06:55 AM

hello guys, i dont know if already of you know that 2 rock decks top in 1,2 slot i believe in recently concluded legacy tourney in jupiter games
here's the list: http://jupitergames.info/articles/

Top 1: 1ST PLACE: GREG KOMAR

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
3 Liliana Of The Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Mox Diamond
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Stony Silence
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Darkblast
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Duress
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Top 2: 2ND PLACE: ELI KASSIS

4 Thoughtseize
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Liliana Of The Veil
1 Inquisition Of Kozilek

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Savannah
1 Marsh Flats

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Inquisition Of Kozilek
1 Angel Of Despair
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
3 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben

Mr. Safety

11-04-2012, 09:06 AM

No one has ever said that shaman replaces ooze. Compare them on a graveyard hating level and ooze wins every time when you hav the time and the mana to invest. That being said, you can play a shaman on turn one and have it active on turn 2. If you draw your one of ooze it will be active on turn three at the earliest and turn four if you have to zenith for it. I am pretty sure a reanimator or dredge player can win before then.

More later I'm headed to the bar

Okay back to finish response.

Dredge does hate to see a turn three scavenging ooze, if they haven't won yet. A turn one shaman goes a long way in ensuring you get to activate your ooze.

People comparing Shaman to specific cards it emulates will always side with the emulated card as being more powerful. That being said, Scavenging Ooze will never give you mana, mox diamond will never kill your opponent and tormod's crypt will never gain you life. Shaman is a card that has never been made before in its colors and with its effects, he is insanely powerful and has uses against every archetype and flat out hoses many decks.

As for mana acceleration in Rock/Junk decks, play 4 GSZ, 1 Dryad Arbor and 4 Deathrite Shaman and let me know how the mana acceleration feels compared to the old standard of 3 Mox Diamond. With Shaman you actually get to play more acceleration without running more dead cards. I will concede that you will never play a confidant turn one, but you will land turn two knights/lillianas/SFM+discard on a regular basis....real first world problems if you ask me.

I slightly disagree on Shaman replacing Scavenging Ooze...I have replaced Ooze with Scryb Ranger because of the 4 Shamans I have. That pairing, along with 3x GSZ to fetch the goods, is much better than Ooze. Four life a turn while ripping the graveyard, either added life or dinging life, is just amazing. The mana early on is great, a reminder of why Birds of Paradise was once the best green creature in print.

At this point, I'd say Shaman is probably the best one-drop in legacy.

lavafrogg

11-04-2012, 08:22 PM

So much winning with rock lately...go us!

Dyvith

11-05-2012, 08:29 AM

Hello everyone. My name is Greg Komar and this is my tournament report for the November 3rd Jupiter Games NELC Tournament in which I split the finals with Eli Kassis. For all intensive purposes, he agreed to give me “the win” which is basically just for pride, so thanks for that!

I decided to play Junk, which is basically B/G/W good stuff. I’ve top eighted a handful of times now, all with blue decks, most usually RUG Delver and then again last month with BUG Delver, but I never felt like I was able to win games against some decks and turn one Delver just didn’t seem good enough anymore. With the printing of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, I really, really wanted BUG Delver or BUG Control to be “the deck,” the one that would oust RUG Delver as public enemy number one. So far, that hasn’t happened, and likely I don’t think it will. However, my testing with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite really made me a believer that these cards were the real deal and not just hype so, last month when Eli and Tom both showed up with Junk decks and both did well, I decided to hang up my Force of Wills and Brainstorms and start playing Knight of the Reliquaries. I have no regrets. Junk is a incredibly awesome deck. I drove up with Jesse Adams, Bobby Green (I think that’s Bobby’s last name), Dave Rice, David Choa (Again, I think that’s his last name), and a few others, and no one else was on the Deathrite plan. Later that night, after the tournament, we went to get Friday’s with all of them plus Alex Bertochini and his girlfriend, Shannon (I think? Man, I am bad with names…). David Choa and I played a few games and by the end of the dinner, everyone was on the Deathrite plan – even the Bant deck wanted to splash a black dual or two for him. Good card is good, and as Eli said at one point during the tournament, “Every time I played him (Deathrite) turn one, I didn’t lose.” I felt the same way.

As far as the decklist is concerned, I didn’t come up with the shell – I can thank Eli Kassis and Tom Leger for that, but I took what I liked from both of their lists and made a few changes and tweaks with numbers and came up with a list I was very content with. I wanted consistency above all else, so I kept my tutor package limited (I have some regrets about this) and my numbers high. The most variance in my list consisted of the two Mox Diamonds that both Eli and I played, and though I can’t speak for Eli, they won me infinitely more games than I lost from them, including my third game against Si-Ning in the first round of top eight.

Here’s the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Inquisition of Kosilek
3 Thoughtseise
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Mox Diamond
1 Karakas
1 Horison Canopy
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Mase of Ith
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Darkblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stony Silence

There are definitely some changes that I would make, and I will happily discuss those afterwards. For now, I’d like to get into the games. I make some mistakes at times, which while embarrassing, happens, but I also play tight when I need to and based on my results, it paid off.

Match 1: Hollywood on Manaless Dredge

Hollywood beat me in the first round of Top Eight last month when I was on BUG Delver. I know exactly what he’s playing, and I am both concerned and content. On one hand, I know how insane Deathrite Shaman is against Hollywood, plus I have a maindeck Bog, but at the same time, Manaless Dredge can sometimes just win games from literally nowhere, so it’s not like I felt like I couldn’t lose, but I certainly didn’t feel like this would be a free win.

Game One: I win the die roll and I happily put him on the play. I keep a hand with turn one Deathrite Shaman and some other action, and keep. Hollywood takes his turn which consists of him saying pass. I draw my card and take a moment before slamming Deathrite. At this point, my hand is Deathrite + Inquisition, which means if I Inquisition him now, I take a card that doesn’t matter and he gets time walked again. I Inquisition him (there’s a Thoughtseise still in my hand) and see a hand of irrelevant spells that I can’t target, two street wraiths, and a dredger or two. I don’t remember what I take, but it’s a non-dredger, non-relevant spell. He draws, comments on how it was a good one, and passes. I play Deathrite, and I’m pretty sure I just win from there by applying some threats and keeping his dredgers off the board.

Game Two: I’m on the play and my hand is Thoughtseise, Inquisition, Knight, Land, Land, Land, Land, none of which are Bogs. I go first, Inquisition, take something irrelevant and pass. He draws and passes. I draw, Thoughtseise, take something irrelevant, and pass. He draws and passes. I draw, play knight and pass. He knows that I play at least one bog, but put me on more than one because Eli is playing three in his Junk deck. On his turn, he comments on how his draw was very good, and discards Phantasmagorican, which is his best card in this position. However, I think because of his concern of multiple Bogs, he plays it slower than he has to, I don’t bog until is absolutely needed (after one of his draw steps so that he wastes more dredges) and I win from there, though on the last turn apparently if he had dredged the absolute perfect five off an imp, he would have won (scary stuff). I think I may have slightly confused some lines between game one and game two, so Hollywood when/if you read this, please feel free to correct me. That being said, playing against Hollywood is always a pleasure. His jovial attitude is a welcome respite against the antisocial negative nancy’s of the magic community.

1-0

Match Two: Chris Scagnelli playing Bant.

I know what Chris is on because the night before I helped him with his deck. I know that this is a favorable matchup going into it, and throught the entire game we were joking around and having a good time. This was a feature match which can be seen on Jupiter’s website, and I won in a close two games which you can watch there. Every time he has a threat, I always have an answer. He’s never in either of the games at all. After game two, he showed me his board, which confused the hell out of me. He brought in Engineered Explosives and Rest in Peaces to kill my guys and shrink my knights, but this line also kills his guys and shrinks his knights, plus dilutes his threat count. I think one of the reasons I won so handily in game two was that he never had any threats, ever.

2-0

Match Three: BFS playing Combo Elves

Brian had asked me for cards going into the tournament, so I should have known what he was on, but I totally forgot. As we were shuffling up, I started remembering that he wanted Surgical Extractions, then Karakas, so I put him on Esper or Maverick or something, then he plays Forest into Llanowar Elf and I remember him also wanted a Mirror Entity. Whoops. It ends up not mattering as I have a reasonable hand and he doesn’t really get to stabalise. The game is entirely in my favor, and at one point my board is Knight x2, each with over fourteen power, two Deathrite Shaman, and three lands. Brian has forest, forest, Nettle Sentinel with two cards in hand. That’s a total of six cards after he draws. On his turn, he had over twenty permanents in play. While I’m not a combo elves player, the series of events that occurred went from somewhere along the lines of glimpse with two cards in hand, play a Quirion Ranger, bounce forest, replay forest for mana, drew a heritage druid off the draw from glimpse, and continues to go off. Must be nice... At the end of the game, there is no more than ten minutes in the round and we need to play fast to finish. Needless to say, I’m pretty much on super tilt as the winner of this round just needs to win one more match.

In game two, I keep an aggressive keep with removal, a turn one Dark Confidant off of mox diamond, and I proceed to keep him off spells while playing a Knight and other relevant threats and win the game in no more than five minutes.

We go into game three with two minutes on the clock. I mulligan a trash heap of a hand and keep a sketchy, sketchy hand that basically is mono-removal, not willing to risk mulling even more. He fails to kill me in turns and I fail to kill him. We wish each other luck and continue on in our tournament. Though I am 2-0-1 at this point, my last match has me tilted.

2-0-1

Match Four: Eli Kassis on Junk

I know Eli is on Junk going into this tournament because he was one of the people I based my deck off of. We go to three games, and while I’d like to give you a more detailed report, my memory is totally shot. I win game one because I have all the answers at the right times, and then in games two and three it’s the opposite. I don’t really think I made any glaring mistakes at all, but I’m pretty convinced that these games are very much based on drawing right more so than skill (obviously not saying that skill isn’t a factor, as Eli played well, as is typical). Our games were jovial, similar to my games against Hollywood, except Eli is slightly more serious than Hollywood is, and we discussed deck lists and changes and such. Overall, it was a really good opportunity to see how another person might pilot the deck and I think I learned a lot from that match, despite being on serious life tilt and feeling like top eight was out of my reach at this point.

2-1-1

Match Five: Ethan on Miracles

Ethan is a super cool guy from Rochester, however I heard earlier that he was going to be moving away and that this was his last NELC. I was slightly guilty that I had to play against him, because a) I had a good matchup and b) when any gregarious regular is leaving the area, it’s sort of nice to have them go out with a bang.

Game One: Despite what I thought about my matchup, I got rolled. Ethan had an early lock with top and balance and resolved an early Jace. My Liliana was just too slow, and he aggressively ultimate me out of the game, countering everything I threw at him and making me feel totally outclassed. Ethan is a good player and anyone that has ever watched him play Belcher online or in person should know this.

Game Two and Three: I win these games, though I never felt like I was winning. Despite not overextending at any point in these two games, I always felt like he could easily Terminus me at any point, and it was here that I realized that a good miracles player always has the Terminus, whether or not he actually has it. As in, it doesn’t matter if the miracles player actually has Terminus, because you are always going to think that there is a Terminus on top of their deck, and there were turns where I prayed for him to whiff, and he did. The only time I actually felt like I was ahead was in game three the turn before he died where he actually cracked a fetch to look at more cards with top and I knew he didn’t have the answers. I know this isn’t the most exciting recollection of the game ever, and it’s a shame because we both played very, very well, but highlights include ripping the one of Gaddock Teeg the turn before he wiped out my board with an Engineered Explosives that was in his graveyard that he was planning on recurring with his Academy Ruins and resolving the next turn to blow me out. That was in game three I believe. Game two I resolved a turn two Dark Confidant off of protection that carried me into the late game with enough fuel to restock after the Terminus that never came.

I felt pretty bad knocking Ethan off of the Top 8 Train, but I wanted this badly as well, and Ethan was pretty cool about it. I’m going to miss doing block battles bud, have a safe and happy trip back home and we’ll have to battle on MTGO sometime, eh?

3-1-1

Match Six: Ryan Phramer playing BUG Delver

I knew what Ryan was on because last month I played BUG Delver and as a BUG and Delver fanatic, I had looked at his list and knew what he could do. Before the match I bragged about how I think Confidant is bad in that type of deck and that I thought I had a favorable matchup. I then proceeded to make two major mistakes in this game that should have cost me the game.

Game One: Ryan sticks two early confidants, while I only have one, however I have an active knight for a long time, despite him drawing an extra card every turn. Eventually, I decide that I’m going to shut off his mana as much as I can and then kill him from Bob triggers, however given this is my plan, I make the mistake of shuffling away a top. Despite this one mistake, I played super tight all game and I felt good about my play, but because I’m not a Sensei’s Top player, I just totally undervalued how important it would have been for that game. Unfortunately, drawing three cards a turn makes it so that I can’t actually shut him off of green and the Tarmogoyfs keep coming. The turn that I’m going to die, Ryan is at six with one Confidant in play, flips the one Jace he has left in his deck, and I proceed to kill him with Deathrite Shaman. Ryan was understandably tilted, but it felt good to have the karma gods give back to me after my round three match against Elves.

Game Two: Ryan is saying how his tournament is over, etc, etc, and for some reason I felt like I just wanted to shuffle up as fast as possible and make sure we have a full game two. I sideboarded miserably, kept a miserably hand, and was miserably destroyed when he played around Choke all game. Basically, I gave him an out to win game three with very little time left. It was super, super awkward.

Game Three: Ryan and I play at a brisk pace, but this game goes how I thought games one and two would go – I assemble a quick threat base, use my cheap removal to keep his board clear, and make sure to discard his removal. Everything goes as planned, and the game is over in short, short work. That’s the beautiful thing about this deck – it’s very well balanced, so against fair decks, you have a solid about of disruption, removal, and difficult to answer threats. And just like that, I was in Top 8 with a deck I’d never played before! Woo!

First Round Of Top 8: Si-Ning with TES

Game One: I knew going into this that I was on the back foot. It didn’t help that Ning was going first because he was higher in the breakers. I kept a meh hand with turn one Deathrite which is normally the nuts, but he proceeded to kill me promptly on his second turn by tendrilsing me for infinite.
Okay, this was expected. I slump in my chair and proceed to sideboard in eleven cards.

Game Two: I keep a saucy hand with a hand disruption spell, a confidant, and an enlightened tutor (I believe.) Because I go first, I go turn one hand disruption and see he has the turn one win again, but take him off of it. Despite the hand disruption, if he draws well, I’m still just dead. However, he draws ponder. At this point, I drop confidant, and on my upkeep, I tutor in response to the trigger and draw my canonist and something else. From there, he can’t keep up with my disruption and threats.

Game Three: My hand is perfect. I have turn one Thalia. That is all I can ask for against him. All I need to do is get one turn. Ning mulls and I begin to think that I’m going to win. Ning mulls again and I let out a loud cheer. He doesn’t kill me, and I land the Thalia and it isn’t close from there. Afterwards, I profusely apologized to Ning, not for winning, but for the fact that I cheered when he mulled. I’d like to think that I’m a nice person to play against, and I felt like the biggest of tools after that. I offered to buy him lunch or anything, but he wouldn’t have it, however he seemed much more laid back about it than I did. Either way, he’s getting lunch on me next month, whether he likes it or not.

Second Round of Top 8: Tibbetts with UW Stoneblade

This was a feature match which you can watch online. I make a huge punt and run out a turn one confidant into his open white because I figured that if he didn’t have the swords, I’d just win on the spot. It was a risky, risky play that I didn’t need to make, especially because I could have just run out the turn one discard spell. However, I still stuck the game out super long, but died to Jace’s card advantage.

In games two and three, I played super tight. Whereas game one was the Jace game, games two and three were Liliana games. Game two I ultimate with Liliana which felt insane, and then in game three, I ultimate with Liliana, twice. It was pretty sick. This was a strange game for one reason though – my opponent had a lot of “takesie backsies” with brainstorms and a few other things – nothing major that would have been considered cheating, but had I not been in a great mood, I could have been a total chump to him, and a few people had very strange faces as they watched when I allowed him to do this without calling a judge. I definitely should have, but like I said, I never felt like I was losing in games two and three because I just played like I was supposed to and not like a durdle. My opponent was a nice enough individual and at the end, it certainly felt like an epic match.

After I won, Eli came in and said that we were in the finals and offered the split. I accepted on the condition that I was given first place. He double checked to make sure that it didn’t actually matter accept to my pride, and was fine with it. Was it the win I wanted? Maybe not, but it still felt incredible. I’ve been grinding these for a long, long time, and I’d like to think that after the almost two years that I’ve been going to NELCs that I’ve become a regular face by now. I love the Jupiter Games magic community and the players that make it excellent, and this was such a reassuring, rewarding victory. I felt like though I made mistakes, I was really rewarded when I played tight, and that’s all I could ask for.

If I were to play this tomorrow, here are my changes.

Maindeck:
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Inquisition
-1 Horizon Canopy

+1 Scrubland
+1 Windswept Heath
+1 Thoughtseise

Sideboard:
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Worldly Tutor
+1 Bojuka Bog

Here’s why:

Maindeck, I needed a seventh land for Knight. Canopy was just bad for me on the day – not because the lifeloss was relevant, but because I usually just sacrificed it to try and find a land for knight to eat up when I drew it naturally. Inquisition is also just worse than Thoughtseise. In several matchups, had I drawn Inquisition, I would have died. Against Hollywood in round one, because I had double Inquisition, it was much closer than it ever should have been.

In the sideboard, I always wanted at least a second Bog. Worldly Tutor also gets me Thalia and Teeg against combo which is when I need to bring the tutor package in.

All in all, Saturday was so insane. I had such a great time, the drive back was so much fun, the guys I drove with were hilarious, and it was pretty exciting seeing my grinding finally coming to fruition. I’m sorry if my report isn’t the best, and not the most detailed – I hadn’t really expected to get as far as I did, and I just didn’t take notes. Sorry guys! That being said, I hope I was able to relive some of more epic moments of the day. I’ll see you all next month.

Komar

lavafrogg

11-05-2012, 12:28 PM

Grats on the win!

One question if you check back: Why not play the green brainstorm: Green Sun's Zenith?

Obviously you left it out for a reason.

Dyvith

11-05-2012, 01:27 PM

Grats on the win!

One question if you check back: Why not play the green brainstorm: Green Sun's Zenith?

Obviously you left it out for a reason.

In my opinion, the green sun variants are very reliant on Knight because Knight was just the best thing you could be doing. While it still the best thing my deck can do, it isn't the only thing - Deathrite, Liliana, and having a huge amount of flexible answers in Liliana and Decay means that you don't need Knights to win every game now. Another reason, and probably more important than the first, is that you are trading tutor effects for speed, and in my opinion, speed is where it's at. I'm a tempo player, which is why I'm running Diamonds and Deathrite - my answers are so powerful that sacrificing some card disadvantage for speed is worth while, especially when my answers make up for the disadvantage when the game goes long - it's like the advantage of delver without the disadvantage, which is why deathrite is so insane.

ryn ball_2

11-05-2012, 11:40 PM

Dyvith

11-06-2012, 08:00 AM

Congrats Dyvith!. We love to see junk/rock decks put on the top and from your event 2 rock decks made it in the high spot (1,2) i'm speechless and congrats again to you and to Eli :smile:

Since frogg already asked about no-GSZ in your deck, i have couple of questions regarding to your MD if you dont mind :smile:, i actually run a creature list like yours but my MD is loaded of lots of removals.

1) Since you said that you are a tempo player in the inclusion of mox diamond and deathrite, did you consider running hymn to tourachs? I know 6 pointed+2 liliana discards are so sweet, but turn 1 hymn via mox and land is kinda devastating to our opponent.

2) I notice that you run 3 decays and no pulse, is this comfortable to you or metacall in our local? I would love to hit jace or other 4 cmc annoying permanents

3) Will you consider added SFM package in your 60?

thanks :smile:

1) We cut hymn because it gave us less control and more randomness, which we ultimately didn't want.

2) Decay was insane. I lost two games on the day to Jace, and while decay killing them would have been great, the problem was that I made mistakes to get to that point in the first place. The deck just doesn't need a way to kill jace in my opinion, you just go over him. It's possible that one decay should be a vindicate, or maybe a Lilliana but i really doubt it.

3) SFM is card advantage, but not tempo at all. I don't think Deathrite and SFM go in the same deck.

Valtrix

11-06-2012, 09:59 AM

In my opinion, the green sun variants are very reliant on Knight because Knight was just the best thing you could be doing. While it still the best thing my deck can do, it isn't the only thing - Deathrite, Liliana, and having a huge amount of flexible answers in Liliana and Decay means that you don't need Knights to win every game now. Another reason, and probably more important than the first, is that you are trading tutor effects for speed, and in my opinion, speed is where it's at. I'm a tempo player, which is why I'm running Diamonds and Deathrite - my answers are so powerful that sacrificing some card disadvantage for speed is worth while, especially when my answers make up for the disadvantage when the game goes long - it's like the advantage of delver without the disadvantage, which is why deathrite is so insane.

I don't really think you're looking at Green Sun's Zenith correctly, as you're aren't trading speed for tutor effects. You're trading a single first turn play for mana consistency, flexibility, and increased threat density. Green sun's zenith would only make the deck stronger, in my opinion, especially when you run zenith on top of shamans. You run it to be 1st turn mana accelerant (with dryad arbor) when you open with it, or a giant creature if you topdeck it after the first few turns. This flexibility is huge, as no card can setup early plays like that while also turning into a serious threat later. It lets you keep a large threat density while also having more mana accelerants, which in my opinion, gives you stronger plays overall. Mox diamond is a bit more of a tempo play, sure, since you'll have two mana available to you on turn one; however, I think this deck is more about raw power than that type of speed. To me it doesn't seem to make a big difference if you play a tarmogoyf turn 1 or turn 2, this deck is most likely to just play a big creature (or confidant for card advantage) and ride it to victory. The card disadvantage is also very real, and whenever you have a hand like land/land/mox there's a very real potential to not get your third mana soon (or worse, if they have wasteland), but that hand seems so much better when it's land/land/zenith since you can hit three mana for Knight or Liliana, or still have two mana if faced with wasteland. I seriously doubt you'll win very many games because of mox diamond when compared to having zenith a an accelerant which also increases your threat density.

So, the above was an argument for zenith just based on one fact alone, but there are also two very important tutor targets which make it even better: Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg. These are two great cards that I really think the deck benefits from having consistent access to, which is another thing that Zenith can do for you. You might thing that, "Oh we have decays, so pridemage isn't really needed," but in reality having 6+ ways to find an answer to an artifact or enchantment compared to 3 will make a huge difference when you really do need to find that answer. Additionally, combo can be a struggle (which you agree with, given the 2 canonists and 1 Teeg in the board), so having access to Gaddock Teeg more reliably is also pretty important there. Getting a Teeg is also great against a miracles player when you already have another creature in play (to shut off Terminus most notably, but also Jace).

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 10:31 AM

+1 to Valtrix but I want to stay out of this one for the most part as they topped a tourney and I have not...stupid work.....

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 10:40 AM

Dyvith

11-06-2012, 10:46 AM

Your reasons for running green suns is why I have a worldly tutor in the board. Maybe the deck needs green sun, but I never felt like it was what I needed. Also, I'm really not on the arbor plan, it makes mana solo bad. Also, land land diamond is one of the strongest openers you can have. With two basics and ten fetches, you are more than likely to fetch basic swamp and use diamond and now you have a nigh perfect, non wasteable mana base which can cast all but seven cards in your deck or all but four of your cards with any land ( you need either a green or white mana to cast knight off swamp diamond where as liliana is cast off swamp diamond anything )

sdematt

11-06-2012, 11:12 AM

How has the knight been for you guys?

I think it depends on your build. It's still VERY good for me, so I'd never take it out. If you're looking to cut 3 drops, though, I'd say cut Pulse before you cut Knight. Knight's pretty amazing.

-Matt

Dyvith

11-06-2012, 11:16 AM

I think it depends on your build. It's still VERY good for me, so I'd never take it out. If you're looking to cut 3 drops, though, I'd say cut Pulse before you cut Knight. Knight's pretty amazing.

-Matt

Running Deathrite Shaman means that you can run out a turn two knight and just waste them out for the rest of the game. This -is- a thing you can do regularly. Also, a turn one mox means that you can play a Knight on turn two as big as a 5/5, which means that against decks like RUG, if they don't counter it, they are just dead.

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 12:04 PM

Dyvith

11-06-2012, 12:40 PM

I don't play pulse... I'm looking to switch Knight for goyf straight up.

Then perhaps EvaGreen is more your thing?

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 05:33 PM

I play a GSZ heavy list with SFM and Lilliana's for sure not Eva Green.

thefreakaccident

11-06-2012, 05:35 PM

Lets just be honest here...you have no idea what type of list I play.

Maybe clarity can be achieved with an actual list?

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 06:03 PM

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quasali Pridemage

Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Liliana of the Veil

Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 Choke
3 Thalia
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile

My list loves GSZ and SFM at the moment and the sideboard does everything i need it to do.

The uber amazing deathrite shaman is made even better by the addition of equipment, as anything with an active jitte is gg in most cases. I really want to find room for the 3rd Liliana and might cut a GSZ target for her.

Mr. Safety

11-06-2012, 06:13 PM

I am saying that this deserves a real post instead of an edit due to actual content to discuss but...

Has anyone been disappointed in Knight of the Reliquary as of late?I have been finding him very slow in many of todays match ups. Where I have been playing SFM and Knight I am thinking about SFM and Goyf as my beater of choice. It sucks against Emrakul but I have not played against a griselbranding/emrakul player in a while(omniscience is the better choice right now) and DRS gives us a chance against reanimator.

I don't really know...I have not chain wastelanded someone in awhile, nor have I found myself doing anything but attacking, which goyf can do... One last pro is that I can stabilize my mana base a little more than average.

How has the knight been for you guys?

Still the stone-cold nuts, I wouldn't ever consider playing less than 4. I play a threat-lite type of build (4 Knights and then a GSZ package, 4 Deathrite Shamans.) That means I need to have access to Knight in most games or I can't finish off fast enough before opponent's crawl back into the game. I liken Knight to a PW...which is why I also use 1x Garruk and 2x Liliana. They all provide incremental advantage the longer you use them and they support your other creatures really well. I have found that Knight + Deathrite Shaman can win games by themselves.

If you find Knight to be slow...maybe its because your lands need to be tweaked. Maybe its time to dust off Horizon Canopy again, or even Sejiri Steppe so you can finish games in a hurry.

I'm a little biased towards Knights because I'm playing maindeck Pernicious Deeds, too. Knight is often playing the utility role to provide inevitability for me, supported by board control. By the time I actually attack with a Knight it is usually 7/7 or better. By that standard, he isn't slow in the purest sense, in fact quite fast as a 3 turn clock. He just takes time to enter the fray, more like a finisher.

Sughayyer

11-06-2012, 06:29 PM

I haven't been playing for a few weeks, but I understand most of Dyvitch's list and agree 100% :p

If you go to a creature-based, gsz-dependant build, you are playing a bad GW, because GW has a more stable manabase, and more space to use a more effective creature toolbox... adding black to that mixture contributes very little, in my opinion. I agree that BGW can play the tempo-oriented very well (the so many referred Dark Horizons) and it doesn't need GSZ in that build.
Ryn_ball and myself have been using that kind of approach.

@ Dyvitvh:
I just want to know: why 2 moxen? Mox is a good card on the opening hand, and the "lost card" compensates itself with a faster board presence. @ mox minimizes the chance of getting one in the opener, and you might as well end up drawing one at random, when you need a better card... I don't know if I was clear enough... but explain me the line of thought that lead you to play 2 instead of 3...

lavafrogg

11-06-2012, 06:30 PM

The point was to have goyfs in for the non-interactive match ups and even the tempo/aggro match ups where 3 mana is the late game.

Hey you know me, always trying new things.

Some of them are not the best, it was just a question and has no testing or validity behind it.

Thank you for your responses though. I am going to keep goyfs out of my 75 for now.

snyden

11-07-2012, 01:24 AM

sdematt

11-07-2012, 01:47 AM

I'll be shaving numbers at the moment to fit in some Shamans. However, I will not be cutting Pulses. I was playing Miracles all night, and you really want at least 1-2 of them. Sometimes you cannot maintain enough creature board presence as pressure on Planeswalkers. But, I think there's a few slots that could use a good pruning (I'm looking at you, Qasali Pridgemage).

-Matt

Dyvith

11-07-2012, 07:58 AM

2 vs. 3 mox was never the question. For me, I had to decide between one and two. I knew that I wanted another turn one ramp spell, at least, and for a little while I ran a dryad arbor and a green sun's. It was bad. Dryad arbor kills the mana base. Mox Diamond makes mana perfect - totally perfect. There is little that is stronger than turn one swamp and turn one diamond into a confidant or a deathrite and a top or a deathrite and a discard spell. Just the stone cold nuts.

OCPunisher

11-08-2012, 12:57 PM

In my list, I run 4 Sinkholes in the board to go along with 4 Wastelands and 3 Vindicates against combos.

Unfortunately, I ran into a problem last week against Show and Tell.

The player was running Misdirections (not sure if this was MD or in the board). She was able to Misdirect my Sinkholes and Vindicates and completely prevent me from attacking her mana-base. Any thoughts on how to get around this, or any other strategies for beating Show and Tell?

paladin3056

11-08-2012, 07:19 PM

Interesting decklist:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9439&iddeck=68923

basically Rock in Jund colors, lots of acceleration since it runs 4 Deathrite Shamans and 3 Chrome Mox, the only thing I don't like is cascading into a Chrome Mox with every relevant spell in your hand (worst case scenario), maybe changing them into more lands, specifically basic lands for Destructive Flow. The lack of Lightning Bolt is disturbing since with red you run a faster clock and synergizes rather well with Deathrite Shaman (Bolt for 3 damage, then loose 2 via shaman removing Lightning Bolt) 5 damage a turn is nothing to laugh about.

Stuuch

11-09-2012, 07:14 AM

Here is another for your mother. No Rtr cards found here:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9442&iddeck=68945

I would change the deeds for pulses or decays maybe.

sdematt

11-09-2012, 12:18 PM

Here is another for your mother. No Rtr cards found here:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9442&iddeck=68945

I would change the deeds for pulses or decays maybe.

Like the list.

@ Me

So, I was grinding some Miracles and OmniTell last night, and man, that matchup can go back and forth. This is the list I was testing with:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
23

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
15

2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless
23

--BOARD--

3 Hymn to tourach
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

OmniTell

So, this matchup was about 50/50. Sometimes I was able to make him discard and then get there before he could solidly get Omniscience, since Knight locked him out of Emrakul. Othertimes, he just has the nuts and Omni's me into oblivion. I'm not too butthurt about it, it's just the way it goes. I feel bad for Maverick though.

In the board, I have to face his Wishboard for Perish and Virtue's Ruin, as well as him boarding into Leyline of Sanctity. Ouch. I'm bringing out STP Abrupt Decay, and random for Hymn, Choke, Teeg, and Surgical. If he lands Leyline, it makes it MORE difficult, but several times I win without having to make him discard, or I blow it up with Pulse. Teeg is a house by not letting them go for Petals kill, but he has Slaughter Pact as well. Not an awful matchup, but I'd like it to be better. Not sure how, but I do. Qasali Pridemage makes it much harder for him to win, so that's one thing I missed, but I've never really used it anywhere else, and not for a while.

Miracles

This was a grindy one, and the games went back and forth. Whenever I played Sylvan Library, I drew 2 extra cards very soon, and usually won. When I didn't, it was a much harder game. Keeping up with their card advantage, and if possible, exceeding it, was key. Unanswered Dark Confidants usually went far. Knights were great. It was hard to maintain board presence whilst hedging my bets against Terminus, but I was able to. Tarmogoyf and Knight apply enough pressure without having to overextend. Sure they have infinite removal, but that's just the way it is. I think especially in this matchup, you want Green Sun's Zenith. Fetching Gaddock Teeg is huge in this matchup (Worldy Tutor is not being discounted here, but the chance to buttsex you with Vendilion Clique is super high with Tutor, and they know to hold a counter as compared to not knowing what you're getting).

Green Sun's Zenith allows you an extra shuffle to fetch a creature placed at the bottom, and also to redistribute the creatures placed there. A big problem can be not that you don't have any creatures left, but that they're all in chunks in your library, which isn't where you want to be. GSZ or a similar shuffle effect is great to have in this instance.

Abrupt Decay was stellar most of the time, and this is the matchup where I want Pulse all the time. Angel tokens, Coutnerblanace, Jace, Elspeth, etc. It was one of my possible cuts for Deathrite Shaman, but you really want to use Shaman to accelerate into the 3-CMC bombs you have, not cut them. The amount of discard continued to feel right, and in this matchup, I didn't miss losing Ulvenwald Tracker, but I know Maverick is where I'll miss him the most. He's great, it's just about finding something to cut for him.

Garruk Relentless was SUPER stellar. He was a thorn in Miracles' side all the times I landed him, either pooping tokens or granting me tutoring or Trample. Trample won me 3 games when he Entreated during the attack step for blocks. I feel like I want #2 in the board just for this matchup, but finding the room will be an interesting predicament.

Finally, my notes on Deathrite Shaman. I GSZ'd for him on Turn 2 only once for mana, and at one point, my opponent held Fetchlands to mana fuck me. That didn't feel good. However, many other times, I had him for an extra mana, which was nice, but after turn 4, he transitioned into a master of utility, mucking Snapcaster, getting in those extra points, etc. I really enjoyed playing him. I'm not sure if 3 is right for this build, but I liked 3, but I still want my Ulvenwald Tracker, and I don't really want to cut anything. I agree somewhat with the fact Dryad Arbor does screw your mana a bit, however, if I have nothing better to do on Turn 1, I'll GSZ for the Arbor to jump ahead. Having a fetchable creature is also relevant in Miracles, since Fetching EOT to perhaps attack an open Planeswalker stole me a game. It's just more combat tricks your opponent won't suspect.

Ideally, I'd like to run another Garruk, another mana source, and the Tracker, but I can't. However, the Deathrite can sort of make up for the mana, and I think the Tracker can work its way in.

I think I may want the Life from the Loam back, but I'm not sure. It's really only for the RUG matchup, which I think we have a handle on at the moment.

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements --> Could also be Path to Exile, more general removal, also good against RUG and Maverick. Timely is ONLY good against RUG/UR/Burn.
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Pernicious Deed --> May become EE now that we have Shamans
1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

My thoughts.

-Matt

Mr. Safety

11-10-2012, 09:26 AM

I would want Liliana in that list...I would probably drop the Library's for Liliana x2.

sdematt

11-10-2012, 03:09 PM

I would want Liliana in that list...I would probably drop the Library's for Liliana x2.

I'm pretty sure I would never drop Sylvan Library ever.

-Matt

lavafrogg

11-11-2012, 04:48 AM

I would want Liliana in that list...I would probably drop the Library's for Liliana x2.

Matt...loves.... Sylvan library.

Mr. Safety

11-11-2012, 09:22 AM

I'm pretty sure I would never drop Sylvan Library ever.

-Matt

Well ok then, lol...

I'm a huge fan myself, playing 3 in my Zoo list. I just figured with Tops in there with Dark Confidant, you had card quality covered. I guess I was sorely mistaken... :wink:

lavafrogg

11-11-2012, 11:42 PM

New list from SCG. Took 24th.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
1 Lingering Souls

Mr. Safety

11-12-2012, 08:22 AM

I'm a little confused...

Souls + Equips, but no Mystics?

Sylvan Library in the sideboard?

sdematt

11-12-2012, 01:30 PM

I'm a little confused...

Souls + Equips, but no Mystics?

Sylvan Library in the sideboard?

I agree, it's a tad wonky, but maybe he was just super-meta'ing for this. This list is literally my list, with a few shaves and some random stuff added it from Komar's list. I think it's interesting, but not necessarily what I'd want to play.

-Matt

AggroSteve

11-12-2012, 04:16 PM

the list is similar to the one i would play, once i get my shamans, with the difference being that i would play pulse/vindicate instead of lingering souls
the jitte in the maindeck would probably just be there for more removal and card advantage, nothing more
sideboard looks a bit strange with the leylines but sdmatt is probably right with the fact that he was maybe tweaking his list for a specific meta

AggroSteve

11-12-2012, 07:43 PM

i may attend to a legacytournament, on wednesday and on sunday, so i got some questions for you guys

i still got a standard dark-horizons list (till i get those shamans), because i was away from magic for quite a while now

i got the following questions:

how should i build my sideboard (and maybe some tweaks to the mainboard)
from the last tournaments in that place i found out that there is a lot of omniscience/sneak&show, Canadian *****/rug delver (whichever you want to call it), UW-Stoneblade, maverick, Miracle, and some other decks like death and taxes, dredge, Waterfalls (rug cascade... intresting deck by the way) painter, etc.

what cards are best in a sideboard against show and tell decks in your opinion; i have to ask this because i have little to no expierience playing against show and tell decks, specially if they pack leyline of sanctity in the board

should i board gaddock teeg or choke vs stoneblade/miracles if i got no GSZ main?
and so on ......
i wish for some advice the more expierienced playes can give me for this upcoming tournament (actually the first big ones i will attend to :P)
wish me luck

Mr. Safety

11-12-2012, 08:24 PM

If you expect Show and Tell a bit, consider Oblivion Ring in the sideboard, at least 3, maybe 4.

Abrupt Decay, and to a lesser extent discard/Hymn to Tourach, are aces against RUG Delver/Canadian

I'm not sure you should need Choke against Miracles/Stoneblade...Teeg is great against a multitude of decks (Ad Nauseam, Stoneblade, Miracles) the issue is your lack of GSZ to dig him out. Against Miracles/Stoneblade, I have found Liliana of the Veil to be excellent, provided you are playing a minimum of 5 targeted discards.

More than anything, I would highly suggest getting those Shamans. Opening 7 with a copy of Shaman, and a land to play him, just feels right on so many levels. He doesn't lose any value in multiples, either: one gives you mana, the other gives you a clock.

Good luck! Report please if you end up going...

sdematt

11-12-2012, 10:25 PM

Chokes have been pretty underwhelming for me against Miracles as of late. They run enough Plains and such to get around it until they drop Jace or even just Entreat the Angels. I think I'm going to board it out in favour of more Gaddock Teegs and another Garruk Relentless. I lived and died by Garruk by having or not having him, whereas Choke didn't seem to matter. In addition, I agree with Teeg being VERY useful against other decks. Against Omnitell, you want Gaddock Teeg against the Petals of Insight into Tendrils win.

I'm thinking:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight
1 Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
(This is different by 1 Ooze, 1 Qasali, and 1 Tracker from my original)

4 Swords
3 Decay
2 Pulse

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Top
2 Library
1 Garruk Relentless

23 lands

--BOARD--

2 Gaddock Teeg (Combo, Miracles)
3 Hymn to Tourach (Combo, Miracles)
1 Garruk Relentless (Miracles, Maverick)
1 Ulvenwald Tracker (RUG, Maverick)
2 Pernicious Deed (random Aggro, Affinity, tokens)
3 Surgical Extraction (Combo, Dredge)
+3 Spots

The three spots could easily be 2 Timely and 1 Virtue's Ruin; 1 Ooze, 1 Ruin, 1 Timely; etc. It could basically be any configuration, but considering I'm going to SCG Seattle next weekend, I'll look at the results of Dallas and see what's up. Goblins and Miracles will probably be popular as well.

-Matt

defector

11-12-2012, 11:02 PM

So I am going to post this inn the Junk thread as well. My original idea was to call it a Mav deck, but I don't want to quibble and some black wizard from FF1 said there were treats over here. I get in every van that offers me candy so here I am.

First the list:

G/w/b Mav or Call it what you will

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X3
Verdant Catacoms X3
Savannah X3
Scrubland X2
Bayou X3
Karakas X1
Maze of Ith X1
Plains X1
Swamp X1
Forest X1

Green-10-
Green Sun’s Zenith X3
Tarmogoyf X4
Scavening Ooze X1
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1

White-8-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X3
Elspeth, Knight Erant X1

Gold-13-
KOTR X4
Deathrite X4
AD X3
QP X1
Gaddock Teeg X1

Black-4-
IOK X2
TS X2

Artiacts-2-
Umezawa’s Jitte X2

Some design ideas:

The three color mana base is vulnerable and this impacted my decision for both KOTR and Shaman. Being able to get any color and take advantage of fetch heavy Legacy is nice and makes our vulernability to color screw a little better. I also radically reduced the tool box capability of KOTR limiting it to Maze and Karakas. I would lie things like Cradle, Arbor, or Canopy, but it seems like you just expose a little too much throat there. I want the mana base a rock solid as it can get, get it, rock, ha fucking ha.

The Two Jitte:
These are Lilli's in other builds, but I find with the 6 maindeck removal I have a hard time using her +1, so Jitte is next best thing. It's a flex slot, but Jitte is also a very good card.

The 10 man plan: I want 10 total win cons, 4 goyf, 4 kotr, 2 PW. It gives a reliably fast clock and allows you to play out one or two threats vs Miracles and force Terminus without having to commit to the I win or I lose if you find a four outer.

Some Card Choices:

The Ringer: The new kid in town is Deathrite Shaman and damn is he cool. 4 Maindeck gy disrupts keep goose little, dredge in trouble, snap man futile and opposing KOTR under control as well as blocking lackey and living to daintily sip some elf boy wine. On top of that he solves your mana issue in a three color deck. I am committed to this little guy and went all in with 4.

The AD/STP split: I like the 3/3 but I can't argue for or against any specific combination. Vindicate and Pulse are not in my list and if they were the config would certainly be different.

No Thalia:My name is Tom and I used to play Maverick. I had boards that were double hierarch, mom, thalia, and I felt great and then a Zelous Persecution came and I had a HUGE SAD FACE! I had three mana in play five hundred times and a choke in my hand, but by the time I hit my fourth land drop it was already too late to lock them out. Thalia is a great card, probably a staple, but I'm just not over it. Not yet. Maybe in a year we could talk, we did have some great times, good memories of storm players in frustration and forcing my opponent to spend just one more turn to get there and dying to the lil white time walk, but not now.

The HD Package: I like it, seems a fine mix. I could go to 4 ts, not sure if the lifegain from shaman/ooze/jitte is enough or a waste of activations. Definitely flexible but I think 4 is the right number and sorcs in the yard make goyfs happy.

The GSZ Suite: I think we need to tutor bullets(Teeg mainly) and reset libraries after terminus more than lose some llife and draw some cards. I put in a 4 Bob 3 Top package in here and it was ok, but I feel like this gives more spread vs other mu. Second teeg in the board for insurance. Anyone that would rather play the Bob package in these slots has my blessing, I wont fight over it, I just think its better to tutor right now.

Sorry for all the vernacilaur, haven't written with the full nerd cap on in some time. Let me know what you guys think.

zulander

11-12-2012, 11:06 PM

sdematt

11-13-2012, 12:22 AM

How good is Deathrite Shaman over Birds? Also, I'm not sure if people are noticing this but with lists that have a high 2cc count it is possible to support Mox Diamond on 24 lands. Moxen are better in those lists over mana-dudes as well as don't contribute to removal or terminus.

Most of them time, I'm not using Deathrite Shaman for mana. Sure, he CAN be used for mana, but on Turn 1, I'm Thoughtseizing. If I don't have Thoughtseize, I'll drop Top. If I'm not dropping Top, I'll Deathrite (assuming on the play, on the draw, I'm more likely to Deathrite).

Yes, he can be a great piece of acceleration one or two times in the early turns, or later on as lands get cycled away or Wastelanded. After turn 4, I'm usually using him to suck up Instants and Sorceries against Miracles. Having a creature do that much work is pretty darn good. In all honesty, Deathrite isn't truly a piece of accleration like Mox or Birds. Mox is going to be your best bet if you want unbridled acceleration, followed by the stability of birds. The fact of the matter is that both of those cards are dead in the late game, whereas drawing Deathrite Shaman in the later game is downright good when even drawing, say, hand disruption or Swords to Plowshares is "bad." No other card has as the transition that Shaman does, so that's why I'm trying him right now.

I may even try him in my BUG list for the same purpose. Sure he can pump out a Turn-3 Jace, but he can also go the extra mile in pinging away life points or gain some life without having to actually attack. That's pretty sweet.

-Matt

.Ix

11-13-2012, 03:31 AM

G/w/b Mav or Call it what you will

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Windswept Heath X3
Verdant Catacoms X3
Savannah X3
Scrubland X2
Bayou X3
Karakas X1
Maze of Ith X1
Plains X1
Swamp X1
Forest X1

Green-10-
Green Sun’s Zenith X3
Tarmogoyf X4
Scavening Ooze X1
Garruk Relentless X1
Scryb Ranger X1

White-8-
Mother of Runes X4
Swords to Plowshares X3
Elspeth, Knight Erant X1

Gold-13-
KOTR X4
Deathrite X4
AD X3
QP X1
Gaddock Teeg X1

Black-4-
IOK X2
TS X2

Artiacts-2-
Umezawa’s Jitte X2

I play a very similar list right now, the main differences being Cabal Therapy and Lingering Souls. Forcing a Terminus with 2 spirits and Gavony Township is pretty cool. If I were to play a PW it would be Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. He can randomly win games with lots of spirits on the table. Of course, Elspeth and Garruk are much better in your build. I agree that Thalia isn't very good anymore, and that discard is much better right now. Show and Tell in particular is hardly affected by Thalia, and that deck is pretty much the main combo deck of today's meta.

Question for everyone:
I recently moved to a very affinity-heavy meta where I get beat down so fast PWs are generally dead, and even after a little metagaming I still have a hard time. How do you guys find the Affinity matchup preboard?

sdematt

11-13-2012, 09:16 AM

For me, 7 pieces of targeted removal isn't bad, but it's not great. The whole trick with Ravager can really suck, and Etched Champion is actually a beating.

Affinity is okay preboard for me, but better post when you bring in Pernicious Deeds. Then you're fine :)

Also, Dueling Grounds is nice tech against them, especially since we're running Maze of Ith. Then, you attempt to grind them out.

-Matt

.Ix

11-13-2012, 10:31 AM

Yeah Etched Champion is the worst. When one of them drops, I have to somehow put counters on a Jitte or I'm toast. I'm fine postboard since I can run Seeds of Innocence or Stony Silence, but game 1 is really tough.

Mr. Safety

11-13-2012, 07:58 PM

defector

11-13-2012, 09:38 PM

sdematt

11-14-2012, 01:56 AM

I agree on deathrite 100% I wanted to check in on the mana base a bit. Is 3 waste really optimal? I feel wierd with less than 4. I run 6 fetch, 3 basic, one karakas, 4 waste, and then 3/2/1 on sav/bayou/scrub. I wanted it as redundant as possible. How do you guys feel about the stifle waste decks? As for the affinity decks, i feel the same way about game ones if you can steal a win awesome, then bring in 3 deeds and blow up their lands, it sorts them out right quick. If you want to strictly metagame go to 4 deeds that'll at least get you some prize packs, you can always tune it down if you go to a major.

Well, let's put it this way. Why are we running 4 Wastes? We're not mana screwing them like we used to. Hardly anyone is running Vindicate. Plus, you have 4 Knights to tutor them up.

We also play a ton of coloured cards, and you REALLY need the mana. I favour playing more fetches over the Wasteland just for the fact of colour fixing. I've been playing 3 Wastes since Knight was printed and it's been fine. I've never felt like I need more. I guess SOMETIMES 4 would have been fine, but I never have an issue, usually.

-Matt

defector

11-14-2012, 11:03 AM

ryn ball_2

11-14-2012, 12:18 PM

Fair enough I'll cut to three and see how it goes. Put one more fetch in that slot. The other idea that I've been toying with is adding basics. I'm not sure if its relevant but a mana base that was 3 waste/1 karakas, 5 basics/7duals, 7 fetch. Has anyone tested around with any configurations like that? I'm mainly concerned about the BUG/RUG delver mu where they have 4 stifle, 4 waste and usually some removal for shaman.
Thanks!

Hi, in my list i run this manabase/tutor lands: 2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains, 8 fetches, 4 duals, 4 wasteland, 1 karakas, 1 maze, 1 bog, together w/ 3 mox diamond, sometimes it is like -1 waste, +1 volrath
my reason for running 4 basics esp. 2 swamp
1) i have MD deeds so i want to max out the deeds w/o worrying i have been wastelanded,
2) i have MD liliana sometimes i want to cast liliana using basics via 2 swamp+1 so that my duals are open for spells like decay/stp, also it is easy to cast liliana via double swamp w/o being wastelanded
3) to cheat RUG as well make their wasteland a dead card, while you are the machine head here killing their manabase w/o worrying to wastelanded you back.

A little tip about RUG w/ stifle, if you suspect that your opponent playing RUG deck do fetch activations on their upkeep making them to tap their mana and they are 1 less mana effective to cast spells, example you are on the draw and your opponent plays misty rainforest then passes, you draw and play fetch land in this case i will pass the turn, Opponent turn's now, on his upkeep crack your fetchland, a RUG player will throw their stifle on your fetch (if not that stifle will be a dead card) then on his main phase he is only 1 mana effective to cast spells (1 land is tapped for stifle and 1 untap land), it is like timewalking in your position.
Another tip is to fetch inresponce to their fetchland activation but be careful not to all-in your fetch activation do it step by step in-responce to his activation.
About wasteland i knew it hurts so much but dont forget to fetch basics to avoid problems, wasteland on your duals is reality but you can cheat it.

Now i drop my mox diamonds for the shaman slot retaining same manabase count/confi, for now i cant share much of my observation, quite busy at work and preparation at modern tournament :wink:

sdematt

11-14-2012, 01:05 PM

So I ground out some games against Miracles (again), since it placed three in the Top 4 at Dallas, so I figure it will be a serious contender for Seattle.

I ran some preboard games, and the results were only so-so. I got wiped by a Turn 2 Terminus that 3-for-1'd me, and several other shenanigans. It wasn't super pretty.

Postboard, I did this:

-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, -1 Random
+2 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Garruk Relentless

Then, the matchup swung much more the other way. He boarded in Moat, another Terminus, and some other creature hate. Hymn busted up their hand, and Abrupt Decay was VERY good. Sylvan won me many games, and had to be Oblivion Ring'd or Detention Sphered. Top to keep up with Top was good as well. Gaddock Teeg was exceptional, and when paired with something eating graveyards, they can't rely on Snapcaster; they must draw an actual Swords to Plowshares to try to get ahead. Garruk poops tokens and negates Terminus, but remember to hold your Pulses for Angel tokens if you can.

The reason why I cut Inquisition, even though we WANT discard in this matchup, was backed by a few reasons.

1) What else are you going to cut? You can't cut creatures for pressure, removing non-STP removal is a liability, and you need draw effects as well as GSZ to fetch your sideboard cards.

2) Inquisition doesn't grab Entreat, Jace, etc., but DOES increase your chance, if on the play, of grabbing their Top/CB.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

I still need to round out my board:

3 Hymn to tourach
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
2 EE/Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Open

I don't have more slots for Miracles, Maverick should be fine with Tracker, Deeds, Ruin, and Garruk, etc. Thoughts? I'm thinking either more grave hate or something like Timely for RUG. Maybe EE?

-Matt

Stuuch

11-14-2012, 02:26 PM

Entreat the Angels has CMC 3 even if it looks like it´s more. You can Inquisition it away. This happened to me once and I almost didn't notice it. I think you are right about boarding out the Inquisition in this match though. Not hitting Jace sucks so much. :)

zulander

11-14-2012, 03:27 PM

Here's the list I've been toying with:

Mana: 23
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 21
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant

Disruption: 12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Other: 4
3 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless

Sideboard: 15
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth
3 Tormod's Crypt

defector

11-14-2012, 09:42 PM

At rynball2: thanks for the tips. Ill keep the upkeep fetch thing in mind thats a good play. Im rebuilding the base tonight: waste x3 karakas x1 fetch x6 duals x7 basics x5. Ill test that and see what i think of it. I want solid resiliency.
At matt: I agree that miracles is the dtb. I hate that pos and I think it will define the meta passing RUG in the next couple months. I board out 3 stp 2 jitte 1 ooze 1 maze and bring in 3 choke 3 angel 1 teeg. Stp and maze are way dead. G1 i figure i am about 45% g2/3 maybe even favored. Miracles is really tough. Teeg and mom are my best ays and the shaman. I like choke but im not committed to it. More games are required.

defector

11-14-2012, 09:43 PM

And I completely agree about cutting iok for ts. The mu where the discard matters are so tight you cant afford a miss.

defector

11-14-2012, 09:47 PM

At zulander: the list looks good. A few ideas, the 4th deathrite is worth it in my op. I like scryb in there as well. Scryb positively interacts with kotr and shaman. 3 sylvan seems to many but it is a great card. Good luck with it!

sdematt

11-14-2012, 10:07 PM

Mana: 23
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 21
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant

Disruption: 12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Other: 4
3 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless

This list is my favourite. Honestly. The only thing I'd change is Qasali for Ulvenwald. Otherwise, love it. It's like the no-nonsense version of mine. I may actually just run this. We'll see.

-Matt

defector

11-14-2012, 11:22 PM

Let me know how it goes. The list has legs for sure:)

sdematt

11-15-2012, 12:16 AM

It's definitely missing some things, but we'll see :P

-Matt

sdematt

11-16-2012, 12:15 PM

I played my usual list last night, and it was a bad night. Bottoming out the car in a construction zone, sticky sleeves, and a ton of Burn decks (about 40% of the meta) ruined my night.

It was a free Legacy tournament at a new store, but all the players were new to Legacy, so they all bought into Burn/Affinity/Dredge. Cool. Rojund 1, I almost got there against Burn, needed another turn.

Round 2, Buy.

Round 3, Sneak and Show. Won.

Round 4, Burn. Died on Turn 4 each time.

During these games, I never drew a Knight, Tarmogoyf, or Deathrite. My clumping issues were RIDICULOUS. I'm not too mad since I know Mono Red Burn is an awful matchup, but still. Sucks when everything falls apart.

I'll still be running this at SCG Seattle on Sunday if I end up going, so I'll keep y'all posted.

-Matt

zulander

11-16-2012, 12:42 PM

So here's how my tournament went with the list posted earlier:

Round 1 - Goblins. Lost 0-2. Game 1 drew a ton of lands and not enough gas (had him dead). Game 2 I drew about 2-3 lands, and that was not good with him hitting all 4 Gempalm Incinerator.

0-1

Round 2 - Beat some random URW deck. Thoughseize was great.

1-1

Round 3 - Stoneblade Miracles. Won 2-0. Thoughseize was great, but Abrupt Decay was amazing killing tokens and stoneforges. Game 1 I landed a turn 2 Sylvan that won me the game, and game 2 I boarded in 3 Teeg's. While Teeg never landed on the board he did eat up his hand which allowed me to win through other beaters.

Round 4 - RUG. Lost 1-2. Game 3 he just drew the nuts, had daze/spell snare/force for my stp, ooze, goyf. Not fun. Then he had stifle, waste, forked bolt for my fetch, bayou, deathrite shaman. All of that in game 3. Not fun at all. Tested a little afterwards as well and it just seemed like it was not a good matchup.

Changes I could see being made, -1 Garruk for +1 Deathrite. I'd like to see some Thalia's, maybe -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Thoughtseize, +2 Thalia. Against RUG I also felt like I'd want Mother of Runes, but then that changes the deck to JUNK Maverick, not so sure I want to make that many changes as of now.

The list I posted was solid, but you could easily cut the following amounts of cards:
1 Sylvan
1 Dark Confidant
1 Garruk
1-4 Thoughtseize (as long as the replacement is good against control/combo like Thalia's)
1-2 Abrupt Decay
1 Wasteland -> land

I definitely want to add in 1 more deathrite Shaman, that guy was very good all night. Would have loved him turn 1 every game. If you like this style of disruptive aggro deck it's worth it to look at Team America as you get the new toys but get brainstorm, ponder, better disruption, and delver. Sure you lose knight/swords but it may be worth a look, and may be something I'll take a look at as well once my midterm papers are complete.

Dyvith

11-16-2012, 01:26 PM

Here's the current list I'll be playing in a Win-A-Mox this weekend. Assuming I do well, I'll have another report up later this weekend.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseise
2 Inquisition
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Top
2 Mox Diamond

2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Bog
1 Mase of Ith
1 Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sealous Persecution
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Qasali Pridemate
1 Duress

I rebuilt my sideboard to be anti miracles and anti combo. I'm expecting good things.

Dyvith

defector

11-16-2012, 02:00 PM

Good luck to all in your events, hope you have a good showing:)

Mr. Safety

11-16-2012, 02:15 PM

Round 3 - Stoneblade Miracles. Won 2-0. Thoughseize was great, but Abrupt Decay was amazing killing tokens and stoneforges. Game 1 I landed a turn 2 Sylvan that won me the game...

This really stuck out to me, and I wanted to bring attention to it: Sylvan Library against anything playing counterspells is the stone cold nuts. It's a *must counter* spell, but my experience is that in most, if not in all, situations players let it resolve. This was my experience when I was piloting Zoo, but it applies here too. I have been fighting the inclusion into my deck for a little while, but I think it's about time I caved and just played it. I have three available to me, and I wouldn't play more than that, but I think I'll start with 2 and go from there. Getting some sort of incremental card advantage (Sylvan, Bobs, Phyrexian Arena) seems to be really important for my style of build (mid-range Rock, not as tempo oriented as other builds.)

Will be back with an updated list soon, when I figure out how to work the Library's.

Claymore

11-16-2012, 02:31 PM

Sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sealous Persecution
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Qasali Pridemate
1 Duress

I rebuilt my sideboard to be anti miracles and anti combo. I'm expecting good things.

I think you could play x4 Thalia if you're specifically needing to take down Combo. Some of those one-ofs, like zealous and golgari, are expendable.

sdematt

11-16-2012, 04:59 PM

Safety, did I not tell you Sylvan was *literally* the nuts? :tongue:

-Matt

zulander

11-16-2012, 05:05 PM

I think you have to play Sylvan in the deck. It just wins you the game against so many decks it's not even funny. Sure Bob + top is cute, but what happens when they remove bob? Now you're just paying 1 mana to durdle around every turn. Sylvan wins you games, hands down.

Mr. Safety

11-16-2012, 05:13 PM

Safety, did I not tell you Sylvan was *literally* the nuts? :tongue:

-Matt

I'm not sure if you said it specifically to me, but yes, message recieved, lol. I've already been testing it online and its already proved its worth. So I'm currently doing a 2/2 split of Library/Phyrxian Arena.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Qasali Pridemage

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Cabal Pit
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village
1x Nantuko Monastary

I found myself swapping Deed for Hymns too often...Hymns are maindeck and Deeds are in the side.

Stuuch

11-17-2012, 07:12 AM

I think you could play x4 Thalia if you're specifically needing to take down Combo. Some of those one-ofs, like zealous and golgari, are expendable.

4 Thalia is bad because she is Legendary and easily removed with one dread of night which is found in storm sideboards nowdays. It's much better to have different hate bears for the decks Thalia is not so good against. Canonist for example is much better against Omnitell and elves than Thalia. Golgari charm is also a very good card in my opinion as a one or two off in the sideboard. Wipes out multiple tokens and x/1s. Regenerates your team after Deed. Kills annoying random Enchatments. What more can you ask from a sidecard?

Zeckk

11-17-2012, 11:35 PM

I'm not sure if you said it specifically to me, but yes, message recieved, lol. I've already been testing it online and its already proved its worth. So I'm currently doing a 2/2 split of Library/Phyrxian Arena.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Qasali Pridemage

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Cabal Pit
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village
1x Nantuko Monastary

I found myself swapping Deed for Hymns too often...Hymns are maindeck and Deeds are in the side.

This list is terrible against RUG delver, and I don't even want to think about the BUG tempo matchup. Too many non-creature spells at 3cmc and above, not enough fetches to make KoTR reliably bigger than a goyf (nor get a lot of use out of deathrite shaman), and witness over scavenging ooze mainboard is just a head-scratcher. I actually don't even know what the maindeck is meta'd for. Combo? Either way, that list folds extremely hard against tempo, maverick, and control, especially miracle control.

lavafrogg

11-18-2012, 12:51 AM

This list is terrible against RUG delver, and I don't even want to think about the BUG tempo matchup. Too many non-creature spells at 3cmc and above, not enough fetches to make KoTR reliably bigger than a goyf (nor get a lot of use out of deathrite shaman), and witness over scavenging ooze mainboard is just a head-scratcher. I actually don't even know what the maindeck is meta'd for. Combo? Either way, that list folds extremely hard against tempo, maverick, and control, especially miracle control.

I mean, I don't like the list but I still disagree with you on many points. Rock lists really do not have many problems with RUG, especially right now. Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay just help in so many ways against RUG which is why I love the two cards at the moment. All he needs to do is establish a mana base and then keep delvers out of the air. The Deathrite Shaman will keep goyfs and gooses down and after that point the Rock list will take the game over. Barring super dumb tempo hands BG is favored. The BUG tempo matchup is good for the same reason, just get mana on the table and win....Life from the Loam, Shaman and Library should help with that goal.

The miracle matchup is going to be better than most due to man lands and planeswalkers being OP against miracles. Maverick is going to be a bitch though as is stoneblade(though the witness tech is super leet against stoneblade)...

Zeckk

11-18-2012, 01:06 PM

I mean, I don't like the list but I still disagree with you on many points. Rock lists really do not have many problems with RUG, especially right now. Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay just help in so many ways against RUG which is why I love the two cards at the moment. All he needs to do is establish a mana base and then keep delvers out of the air. The Deathrite Shaman will keep goyfs and gooses down and after that point the Rock list will take the game over. Barring super dumb tempo hands BG is favored. The BUG tempo matchup is good for the same reason, just get mana on the table and win....Life from the Loam, Shaman and Library should help with that goal.

The miracle matchup is going to be better than most due to man lands and planeswalkers being OP against miracles. Maverick is going to be a bitch though as is stoneblade(though the witness tech is super leet against stoneblade)...

What? His only sources of CA are higher cmc than bob, and both are spell-pierceable. Decay is good against RUG, but his list has literally 2 card filter spells. Good luck on the games where you need to dig with top + fetches in order to see a reasonable number of abrupt decay or plowshares. His list is also missing mox diamonds, so good luck "getting mana" with those 2 colorless lands, 2 tap lands, and only 1 LftL maindeck...

I agree that The Rock has gotten a much better matchup % against RUG with the printing of deathrite and decay, but his list is just missing too many of the important cards against tempo lists, namely top, bob, SFM, batterskull, and mox diamonds.

mini1337s

11-18-2012, 10:34 PM

The one and only Matt Pavlic (sdematt) is playing in the T8 for SCG Seattle.

damionblackgear

11-18-2012, 11:52 PM

The one and only Matt Pavlic (sdematt) is playing in the T8 for SCG Seattle.

He was on camera. If you're seeing this part, it's the edit. You missed it... you're late.

Also, 16th place is also BGW but not standardized into any of the current versions. Here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50934)

Kich867

11-19-2012, 12:03 AM

he's on camera now. (http://www.starcitygames.com/streams/SCGLive)

Also, 16th place is also BGW but not standardized into any of the current versions. Here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50934)

Dude he just rocked that game with the fist of an angry god. I feel so bad for that aluren player right now.

Ziveeman

11-19-2012, 12:42 AM

GO MATT! I'm rooting for you!

Oiolosse

11-19-2012, 12:45 AM

2nd place. Great job.

Whippoorwill

11-19-2012, 01:12 AM

Congrats on 2nd place Matt!

Vicar in a tutu

11-19-2012, 04:08 AM

Congrats Matt :)

Rummelboxer

11-19-2012, 07:11 AM

Congratulations from Germany Matt!
I always enjoy to read your posts! If someone deserved it, than you!

Dyvith

11-19-2012, 10:02 AM

Congrats on taking second.

I'm not a fan of some of your card choices, but the results speak for themselves.

I top four split a Win-A-Mox this weekend with the list I posted earlier. My losses were almost all to mana issues, or just drawing dead sometimes - it happens.

These are the questions I'm thinking about:

How many Goyfs? I ran four, but I'm debating playing main deck Teegs or Thalias rather than playing one of them in the board. I think this is a metagame decision, but I have a feeling that playing two maindeck Teegs might just be the nuts - on the other hand, maindeck Thalia shuts down RUG and other prominent decks but has no impact against Maverick or Goblins, really. Teeg really, really punishes UW decks. If I were to play either in the main deck, I'd cut one goyf and another card for two of either of those.

Is two diamonds correct? Is one?

Should I play basic plains or mase in the maindeck?

This is what I'm considering playing...

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Knight
3 Goyf
2 Thalia
3 Liliana

4 Thoughtseise
2 Inquisition
4 Swords
3 Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Canopy
1 Bog
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Duress
1 Bog
1 Mase of Ith
1 Unknown Card - Possibly Darkblast or Sealous Persecution

sdematt

11-19-2012, 11:22 AM

Thanks guys!

I rocked that Aluren player as hard as nails. He was my only loss during the entire Swiss, and only due to my not paying attention during the combo (I could have killed him, but I thought he was on his last Imperial Recruiter, but sadly, he wasn't).

I also played the last round, thinking I needed to win-and-in since my breakers were bad. However, it turns out we could have drawn in the last round and still made it, but the people below us, I'm pretty sure, could have screwed us possibly had they drawn. Not entirely sure, but we played, and I knocked a Bant player out of commission, which I would have loved to have played again in the finals.

Here are the matches I played:

Round 1: JJ with Reanimator (2-1)
Round 2: Bill with Combo Elves! (2-1)
Round 3: Ismael with Affinity (2-1)
Round 4: Martin with 4C Aluren (1-2)
Round 5: Nate with Maverick (2-0)
Round 6: Ricky with Merfolk (2-1? 2-0?)
Round 7: Corbett Gray with Sneak and Show (2-1)
Round 8: Bryan with Bant (2-1)

Overall: 7-1 after the Swiss, 21 points, 1st Place. :laugh:

-Matt

-Matt

Koby

11-19-2012, 11:36 AM

Congratulations are in order! Good job Matt, it's a shame I didn't get to watch the matches live, but it turns out I was brewing Junky decks while you were fighting on air.

Onto more pressing matters: how does a Maverick player transition into Junk to take advantage of the heavier disruption suite that Junk has to offer?

Is there a recap of the GSZ / SFM sides? Does the deck perform better with heavier :b: or :g: or :w: base color?

Black offers Liliana and Hymn (and I'm almost certain Hymn is too over the top)
Green offers GSZ and the associated creatures, but it doesn't feel to me like its taking advantage of the color wedge.
White offers SFM and Lingering Souls, which to me seems like the best pairing with Liliana.

Are Mox Diamonds adviseable? 3 or 4 Deathrite Shaman?

Where do I begin? HALP!

defector

11-19-2012, 12:06 PM

Well done Matt!! Great games and a great finish!!

Esper3k

11-19-2012, 12:33 PM

Koby

11-19-2012, 12:39 PM

Congrats, Matt! I too have been recently brewing up Junk lists - we'll see how things go in my testing.

Now you've put the deck back on the radar and people will be more prepared for it at Denver, doh!

Denver? There's still SCG Vegas and the Invitational in LA coming up. Plenty of time to practice in the field!

Esper3k

11-19-2012, 12:41 PM

Denver? There's still SCG Vegas and the Invitational in LA coming up. Plenty of time to practice in the field!

No, I want LESS people to play it, damnit! (Since I'm not playing in anything big again until Denver)

Hapless Researcher

11-19-2012, 12:41 PM

Congrats, Matt.

I was wondering what additions/changes you would make to fight the combo match-ups? That seems to be the weak link from testing.

sdematt

11-19-2012, 12:51 PM

Congratulations are in order! Good job Matt, it's a shame I didn't get to watch the matches live, but it turns out I was brewing Junky decks while you were fighting on air.

Excellent, I'm always glad to hear this! :)

Onto more pressing matters: how does a Maverick player transition into Junk to take advantage of the heavier disruption suite that Junk has to offer?

It depends, how deep do you want to go down the rabbit-hole? I mean, you can just splash for Thoughtseize/Inquisition if you want to, or you can go one level deeper. I've found Abrupt Decay to be simply astounding. Abrupt Decay pulled wins out of losses, and I'm not even kidding. I won matches where, previous to the printings of Abrupt Decay, I was struggling. You can even see this by my unfortunate Match Win Percentage. There's a lot of 2-1's, which I really didn't like, but I'll post why when I do a full report, which will be up (hopefully) by Wednesday, or even tonight (I'm still going from 5am yesterday, so bear with me).

Is there a recap of the GSZ / SFM sides? Does the deck perform better with heavier B or W or G base color?

Do you mean sideboards, or just the versions? I like a heavy black base for disruption and sideboard options. The deck is definitely Bwg, in that order of importance, depending on how you define important.

GSZ allows you to have a little bit more consistency and flexibility in your answers/threats, as you would know with your Maverick experience. GSZ was great all day, and I definitely would not cut the card in MY build. It allows you to run 1's and 2's of a creature, and still be able to get them with reasonable consistency. I like GSZ more against Miracles simply because I can fetch Gaddock Teeg. The nice thing about Junk vs. Miracles is that in Maverick, you do have situations where you have Knight + Mom, and you can go all the way with that until a Terminus strikes. In Junk, you can mash Tarmogoyf until the remove it, since you can apply pressure with a 5/6 beat-stick AND with your Knights, without having to overextend with Noble, Mom, etc.

SFM is definitely better in the tribal matchups, I'd have to say. My version is not the greatest against Tribal (especially Goblins). The life could also matter a bunch more in the RUG matchups (but you have to actually GET Batterskull into play and attacking). In creature combat, Equipment certainly helps, but I've found with all the removal we have (I'm running 9 pieces of creature removal), I don't find the combat step too terrible regarding Merfolk and other fairer decks, but in stuff like Goblins you need all the help you can get.

I think this split is a matter of personal preference and your meta. I'm not a huge fan of SFM because you're so invested the card, but you really have no way to protect it. SFM was good in 2011 because Mental Misstep mucked Swords to Plowshares, so you would always resolve and Vial in your Equipment.

Black offers Liliana and Hymn (and I'm almost certain Hymn is too over the top)

Hymn is most likely too colour intensive if you're running a Dark Maverick type build. I've been told Liliana is good, but I've never felt like I needed her.

Green offers GSZ and the associated creatures, but it doesn't feel to me like its taking advantage of the color wedge.

Essentially, green is only in the deck due to creatures, which is basically what the colour wedge is all about. Garruk Relentless pulls its weight, but for sure, beyond the creature base and Abrupt Decay/Deed, it's a pretty miserable colour.

White offers SFM and Lingering Souls, which to me seems like the best pairing with Liliana.

There was a Black/White deck floating around running SFM, Souls, and such. I think it finished just outside the Top 16. I think if you were wanting to run Liliana, a more aggro-Junk build or a straight BW deck may be better, especially when coupled with blocker and evasion for your Planeswalkers and equipment, respectively.

Are Mox Diamonds adviseable? 3 or 4 Deathrite Shaman?

Deathrite Shaman did so much work on Sunday it's not even funny. You can usually lock down combat by just running out big Knights and Goyfs, and then slowly pick away at them for 2, or just gain two life for value. I used Deathrite for mana probably, on average, 1-2 times per game when I did draw them early. It was nice to have the boost, but after the first bit, this doesn't matter. The fact that Deathrite then does something useful, and something that means something in multiples, is also good. Mox Diamond pitches a land out of your hand and does accelerate you. For sheer acceleration, Diamond is the best if you're running enough lands. However, for consistency and versatility, you want Deathrite Shaman. I ran 3 copies on Sunday and it felt just fine. You do board them out sometimes, but they were good all day at changing the math back and forth.

-Matt

Koby

11-19-2012, 01:19 PM

@sdematt
Thanks for the feedback. Locally, as we were brewing, we discussed the possibility of a SFM/Souls swap with Goyfs/Hymns - effectively moving from Deadguy/G to Eva Green/W. I do enjoy the efficiency of discard + Goyf, so I'll test some versions out and report back within about a week. Thank goodness for Thanksgiving. Time's a plenty!

Esper3k

11-19-2012, 01:32 PM

I've been really liking SFM + Lingering Souls myself.

Lingering Souls especially is a pretty tough card for the Uw Miracle decks to deal with, even if they're running RIP.

The SFM package is also very good against the Miracles decks while also helping a lot with those aggro tribal matchups from my testing.

Mr. Safety

11-19-2012, 02:45 PM

What? His only sources of CA are higher cmc than bob, and both are spell-pierceable. Decay is good against RUG, but his list has literally 2 card filter spells. Good luck on the games where you need to dig with top + fetches in order to see a reasonable number of abrupt decay or plowshares. His list is also missing mox diamonds, so good luck "getting mana" with those 2 colorless lands, 2 tap lands, and only 1 LftL maindeck...

I agree that The Rock has gotten a much better matchup % against RUG with the printing of deathrite and decay, but his list is just missing too many of the important cards against tempo lists, namely top, bob, SFM, batterskull, and mox diamonds.

Haven't had trouble with stone blade or miracles...low creature count along with pw's usually works well. RUG hasn't been hard either...last I knew, targeted discard and hymn to tourach followed by a 9/9 knight is pretty good against tempo decks.

Zeckk

11-19-2012, 06:04 PM

Haven't had trouble with stone blade or miracles...low creature count along with pw's usually works well. RUG hasn't been hard either...last I knew, targeted discard and hymn to tourach followed by a 9/9 knight is pretty good against tempo decks.

Because the RUG player never sees a daze, snare, or spell pierce, right? Abrupt decay does a ton of work, but you are simply running inferior cards that will affect your win percentage. The key to RUG tempo is getting above their soft-counters and sticking something big enough to black their soft removal, without dying to a delver or goyf first. The difficult part is the fact that you don't always see 5+ lands in a game against them, so making sure your card choices inherently blank some of their countermagic is extremely important. Just take a look at Matt's list from the Seattle SCG Open - low CMC, decent creature count, and full playset of Bob.

ryn ball_2

11-19-2012, 11:38 PM

congrats matt!! :smile:

sdematt

11-20-2012, 12:06 AM

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/341250560

Here 'tis in case you want to watch.

-Matt

Kyle

11-20-2012, 01:27 AM

Be like matt.

sdematt

11-20-2012, 01:46 AM

And crush your opponents into the ground throughout the Swiss? :tongue:

Report is being written now, will post when done.

-Matt

stealth

11-20-2012, 05:41 AM

Good to see pimp getting some feature match action, well done Sir GG!

Mr. Safety

11-20-2012, 02:42 PM

Because the RUG player never sees a daze, snare, or spell pierce, right? Abrupt decay does a ton of work, but you are simply running inferior cards that will affect your win percentage. The key to RUG tempo is getting above their soft-counters and sticking something big enough to black their soft removal, without dying to a delver or goyf first. The difficult part is the fact that you don't always see 5+ lands in a game against them, so making sure your card choices inherently blank some of their countermagic is extremely important. Just take a look at Matt's list from the Seattle SCG Open - low CMC, decent creature count, and full playset of Bob.

Bob's are on my list of things to get. Arena is a simple concession in order to make the deck playable. It stays on the field longer, but costs more mana. I know the right move, but I need to save my pennies so I can get the bobs. They still go for around $40 a piece.

I play around daze (gsz and death rite do that nicely.) most games end up by establishing parity, trading discard for counters, removal for threats, and then something like garruk, liliana, or knight gets there. Delver is the prime target for decay because the other threats can be outclassed or dealt with by using discard/swords. Maybe the folks I play against just aren't very good.

Dyvith

11-20-2012, 03:08 PM

I've been really twisted and torn about my list lately. I've spent a lot of time working on my mana base, as well as the one or two flex slots that I seem to have.

For reference, here is my base:

4 Deathrite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords
3 Decay
3 Liliana

4 Thoughtseise
2 Inquisition

3 Sensei's Top
------------------------------- 35 Cards -------------------------

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mase of Ith

------------------------------ 22 Lands --------------------------

3 Flex Slots...

It's amasing just how much trouble three cards can cause...

This is my current idea..

1 Jitte
1 Teeg
1 Plains

Other maindeck cards I am considering are....

Mox Diamond
Thalia

As for the sideboard, that's a totally other story. I'm convinced that I'm going to be boarding out 4x Goyf vs white decks, so I'm boarded strangely for that because R.I.P. decks turn goyfs into pathetic mongos.

Viridia

11-20-2012, 04:09 PM

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/341250560

Here 'tis in case you want to watch.

-Matt

What's up with all the people putting your die on top of the Goyfs >.>
Also nice performance!

I keep thinking if i should pick up The Rock again, but somehow i can't settle on a list. I'm not very fond of Stoneforge Mystic so i suppose that leaves out Lingering Souls aswell.
How many Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman do you guys feel is best playing around with atm? Also how good is Tarmogoyf here? Still very needed as a 2-4 off as beater, or not that important if you manage to get other finishers in?

Koby

11-20-2012, 04:12 PM

Ok did some testing with my own take on GSZ based Junk with multiple goyfs last nite on MTGO.
About the only thing I can say for certain are twofold:

1. This deck has a tough time against monoblack Pox decks.
2. The MTGO casual testing room metagame is comprised of 100% monoblack Pox decks.

There goes that method to testing :\

I'm going to tweak the list a bit and run it in actual 2-man Prizes-on-the-line matches, since that's better testing than in the Tournament Practice room.

P.S.:
Turn 2 on the draw against me: Dark Ritual, Nether Void with Deathrite Shaman in play for me. I hate the people on MTGO sometimes.

sdematt

11-20-2012, 09:02 PM

1. This deck has a tough time against monoblack Pox decks.
2. The MTGO casual testing room metagame is comprised of 100% monoblack Pox decks.

This read very much like an XKCD comic. I laughed here :P

---

Yeah, people wanted to keep putting die on my Russian Goyfs. I no-sirred that one pretty quick.

----

My favourite line from the tournament were these two:

Me: "Inquisition you."

Raid: “I feel so violated.”

Me: “Oh, just you wait…”

--

Feline: “So you’re the one with the black border duals! Suddenly my Candles seem less impressive…”

--

Me: “I couldn’t keep that one. I would've sat there like a limp starfish until you combo off on me.”

-Matt

r3dd09

11-21-2012, 05:39 AM

Congrats :) Was possibly going to play this deck for the GPT this weekend, but everyone will be expecting it... Thanks, Matt ;)

Esper3k

11-21-2012, 09:20 AM

What's up with all the people putting your die on top of the Goyfs >.>

I always thought that was something SCG made people on the feature match cameras do so viewers could easily tell how big 'goyfs were?

sdematt

11-21-2012, 11:18 AM

Correct. They want it on the table, but not on my Goyfs :P

-Matt

Koby

11-21-2012, 11:22 AM

Correct. They want it on the table, but not on my Goyfs :P

-Matt

That's ridiculous. Players should be responsible for verifying public information without the need for it to be handed to them. I thought SCG had some handy technical video editors, they can always put up an overlay for the viewers. GGsLive used to do this.

Viridia

11-21-2012, 12:04 PM

It's okay that they want a Die there to see how big the Goyfs are, but aparently people really want them put on top of the Goyf rather then 2 cm next to it :P

sdematt

11-21-2012, 12:54 PM

They TOLD me to put the Goyf counter up, they didn't ask. I never use dice for Gyof and always check when damage is being dealt, since it can change so often. That's why you see me be pretty awful with the dice; I never use it.

-Matt

Esper3k

11-21-2012, 01:19 PM

worsel

11-21-2012, 11:07 PM

Congrats Matt!

What card can I use on MTGO in place of "Virtue's Ruin", as it isn't in print on MTGO.

sdematt

11-22-2012, 01:19 AM

Congrats Matt!

What card can I use on MTGO in place of "Virtue's Ruin", as it isn't in print on MTGO.

Either a 3rd Deed, or a Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution.

-Matt

feline

11-22-2012, 08:20 AM

They probably want the die/dice up on camera representing the goyf for the audience more than any other reason, or so I'm guessing. Also happy turkey day in the states, and happy thanks giving a month & a half late for those up north in Canada. >^,^<

Mr. Safety

11-22-2012, 02:01 PM

Either a 3rd Deed, or a Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution.

-Matt

How good is golgari charm? I didn't see it in your list...maybe I am blind?

sdematt

11-22-2012, 03:07 PM

You didn't, but it's pretty good. I'd only use it if you didn't have a Virtue's Ruin. Perish mucks you in the nuts (you don't want to run it), and Virtue's Ruin kills all the tricky creatures you care about (Mom, Thalia, Linvala, Knight, Qasali). Another Deed is also good, but the Zealous Persecution is better at taking out small dudes and pumping yours, while Golgari Charm has flexibility in mucking a bunch of small dudes, killing Omniscience with Burning Wish on the stack, or regenerating all your creatures in response to a Supreme Verdict.

I like Ruin though, since it absolutely hoses Maverick. My friend was running BUG Control with Charm and Virtue's Ruin, along with Deeds, and he just screwed over his Maverick matches like no one's business.

I'll be going over my cards choices in an upcoming article on a major website I was asked to write for. Hooray me?

-Matt

feline

11-22-2012, 03:39 PM

Congrats on that, I'd love to write an article for something like starcity or tcg or whatever else, though everyone already knows how high tide works so it's not likely I'd be asked unless I did something weird with the deck ha ha.

Water_Wizard

11-22-2012, 10:45 PM

I'll be going over my cards choices in an upcoming article on a major website I was asked to write for. Hooray me?

-Matt

Cool man. Keep us posted of the release date and website.

Claymore

11-23-2012, 09:10 AM

Yeah, I keep checking in for your tournament report and see nothing! :P

I'm actually buying the pieces to build true Rock now to get a more consistent deck (formerly nic fit, using your list as a blueprint), so hopefully I'll be able to chime into discussions soon with more firsthand knowledge on the deck.

toor

11-23-2012, 10:44 AM

.Ix

11-23-2012, 11:31 AM

I don't run Top myself. With Souls in the deck, you'll miss that 1 mana a lot. Library is much better in this deck. I'm no longer so sure about knight+toolbox myself. I'm considering cutting some from my builds for the local meta because of the lack of nonbasics and the relative irrelevance of the toolbox around here. KOTR is still huge, however, and I don't have other beaters besides Ooze, so I'm pretty much forced to keep some around. In your build, it looks like hitting acceleration on turn 1 and playing something amazing on turn 2 is very important, so maybe it's a good idea to run the full set of Deathrites.

Barbed Blightning

11-23-2012, 11:47 AM

Just looking for some opinions.

I was playing jund and realized that I don't really card about the red cards that much. And maybe white cards would be better.

Things I want to cut (I realize these are some sacred cows).
Swords to Plowshares
Tops (gonna play 2 libraries)
Knights

Things from Jund I really like (/want to add):
Liliana
Lingering Souls
Umezawa's Jittes

Bringing my list to:
3 Deathrite
5 Goyf Knight (not sure on the split right now, thinking 3/2)
4 Bob
1 ooze

3 Liliana
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte
3 Decay
2 Pulse
3 Thoughtsieze
3 IoK
3 GSZ
1 Chrome mox

22 Lands (3 wasteland, 0 Maze of ith).
I know this a lot more mana then many decks play but my curve is higher and I have always hated 21 land rock/maverick decks.

SB:
Basically Matt's

Questions:
a) Is there somewhere StP is a lot better then Jitte? Some matchup I am not thinking about.
b) Is top uncuttable? I loved Jitte + Sylvan in jund. But maybe 1 top and 1 sylvan is better?
c) How good is knight right now? With so many 3's I think I only want two. I expect more Deathrites (this card is bananas) so thats another reason to limit knights in my mind.
d) What matchups do wastelands excel in? I haven't played a ton of legacy since the summer, but that card was impressing me less and less then. Combo decks weren't really vulnerable to mana screw. RUG could mana screw you as much they get screwed (and they can't win if we just cast our spells). Didn't do a ton against Miracles/Stoneforge.

-cheers

My issue is that you're cutting the most solid creature removal in the format for equips that hit midgame and removal spells that are color-hungry. I am a reformed maverick player and a dedicated Death & Taxes pilot and it's hard for me to justify playing white and not swords. Similarly, knight is a definite 4-of in my eyes. A 5/5 for 3 that color corrects? Yes please.

Since I'm a maverick player originally, my list lacks goyf and thoutseize currently, though the latter will be acquired soon. I'm also running a single zenith as a 5th copy of knight or as a means of finding gaddock teeg or ooze. I'm currently debating the libraries or tops; seems good either way.

sdematt

11-23-2012, 12:28 PM

The tournament report is in the reports section, but I'll just paste it in here:

Hey all.

I'm here to regale you all with the tale of SCG Seattle, and what began as a regular weekend and ended with me narrowly missing first place at the Seattle Legacy Open.

For those that don't know me, I'm a Junk player from Vancouver, British Columbia.

Details can be found on the StarCityGames Website under "Coverage."

And now, on to the Tournament report.

--------

On Saturday, I decided that in case it was going to snow, I would bolt the winter tires onto my car. While the car was running outside the garage, the fan belt shredded apart, possibly causing me to reconsider my journey to the land of Amurica. I persisted and replaced the belt, attached the new tires, and began to sleeve up my cards out of perfect fits and into new sleeves. I picked up my partner in crime at the train station and we settled back home, trying to brew some tech for his BUG Control sideboard. We got to bed at 12AM, and had to be up at 530AM to make the event.

530AM rolls around and we stumble out of bed. We grab our stuff and get on the road and head to the altar of Canadian salvation: Tim Hortons. We grab breakfast and get back on the road and head for the border. The wait it roughly 20 minutes, and the border guard easily grants access to the riches of America once he sees we're big nerds heading to play Magical cards. The drive to Lynnwood takes about 1 hour 40 minutes. I see a guy in our playgroup. Jacob Thiessen, takes first in the Standard event. I know I have to take down the Legacy event to bring all the glory back to Canadia.

We register our decks. Here's what I registered:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50931

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Dark confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk Relentless

--SIDEBOARD--

1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction

After everything is sleeved, we move to Round 1.

Round 1: JJ with Reanimator

JJ rolls high and goes first, He derdles around a bit with Brainstorms, and I Thoughtseize. I see he's on Reanimator, so I take his Reanimation spell. I drop to 15, and he topdecks good things and gets a Griselbrand in play with an Animate Dead. I Abrupt Decay the Animate Dead, he drops to 13 to draw 7. I get him to 8, but he drops Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and I don't have the removal for it in time. He dies at 4 life.

In: +3 Surgical Extraction,
Out: -2 Pulse, -1 Deathrite Shaman

In game 2, I'm able to gain the upper hand by stripping his hand apart, and then I land a Scavenging Ooze via Green Sun's Zenith. He can't Reanimate anything, and with Island Swamp up, he sets EE to 2 with my Sylvan and Ooze on board. I Sylvan into Abrupt Decay, take out his EE, then murder his graveyard. He scoops.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/gangnamarchon.jpg
Turns out, this guy's a beating, but hooray for Maze of Ith

Game 3 was more tricky. I see his hand is full of big dudes, but only a bit of action. I take his Thoughtseize that he drew so he couldn't take my good things. I land a Knight, and he manages to get Griselbrand. I get Karakas, but then Blazing Archon also joins the party. I fetch up Maze of Ith to stall, then grab Deathrite Shaman. Shaman takes him from 13 to zero.

2-1

Round 2: Bill with Elves

Bill's a nice guy who's been playing Legacy for about a year, and brought the deck he could afford. So, I pegged him on Affinity, Elves, Burn, or something like that. Unfortunately, a loose bit a of shuffling revealed a Llanowar Elf, meaning, well, he was on Elves.

Game one, he's on the play and drops an absolute ton of guys in the perfect Glimpse draw, but no kill. I had Thoughtseized away the Overrun Elf, but he drew the Glimpse. Obviously. I scoop.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/CHK/Glimpse_of_Nature.jpg
I'm not a huge fan of this card, to be honest.

In: +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Surgical Extraction
Out: -1 Garruk Relentless, -3 Deathrite Shaman

This game, I'm on the play and Inquisition, and he craps his hand of one drops all over the board off of one land. I fill up the board with Knight and Tarmogoyf, then cast Deed to wipe away his board (and mine), leaving my 6/6 Knight in play. I take him out in 3 hits.

Game three, Bill's on the play and has a slower hand, but solid. I fetch and Thoughtseize, taking Glimpse. He beats me down with Nettle Sentinel with casting Llanowar, Fyndhorn, and a bunch of other stuff. He gets the Overrun guy out, I Abrupt Decay. He gets Archdruid, I Swords. I play Sylvan Library and try to start digging for Deed, since I won't have much time now. I'm at 10 after some big beats, and he's at 9. I've got two Knight of the Reliquary, one Dryad Arbor, and one Tarmogoyf, and a hand of nothing relevant. He has Emrakul in hand from Fierce Empath. At this point, he has 9 power worth of creatures, and I've got lethal on him for sure. I Sylvan into the Deed, cast it, and proceed to crush him. He was one turn from going off since he had a summoning sick Priest of Titania :P

4-2

Round 3: Ismael with Affinity

I go and sit down at Table 9, but as it turns out, both pairing on either side of us had feature matches, so we got to stretch a bit. We roll, and he wins. He's up first. He's only been playing Legacy since a few weeks ago, but he's played Standard.I put him on Delver or something using the attack step. He starts talking about Gangnam Style and calling my a poser, and then during the match, insults my Russian cards and asks why I would want Russian cards. I'm pretty sure he might have been trying to tilt me, but you see, that won't happen.

Turn one, He drops Seat of the Synod, Mox Opal, Memnite, Signal Pest, Signal Pest and then passes. Excellent, I love Affinity.

http://img.aegen.nl/AP/Pernicious%20Deed.jpg
"Say hello to my little friend" could be an appropriate line for Deed against Affinity

I drop Deathrite Shaman on the first turn and pass. He drops me to 14. The poison land (Inkmoth Nexus?) joins the party as well. I draw Sylvan Library, play it, and leave my Shaman up to muck Memnite. I swords Memnite, and drop to 11. I draw into Abrupt Decay, and take out Signal Pest #1. He drops Frogmite, I draw into more removal to keep him off anything. I land Knight, and Inkmoths me for 4 poison total before I wasteland. I go to 4, at which point he tries to Galvanic Blast me for lethal. I use Deathrite Shaman to go up to 6, then down to 2. I crack a fetch going to 1, and cast Inquisition, Tarmogoyf. Knight swings for 10. He drops to 14, he draws Frogmite. I remove it, then gain more like, ending the game at 7 while crushing with Knight. Phew.

In: +2 Deed, +1 Ulvenwald Tracker
Out: -3 Thoughtseize

This game is much more of a slow start since we're going a bit back and forth. He draws 3 Galvanic Blasts to muck my creatures, and then uses Relic to nuke my Graveyard and kill my Knight. Not good. I drop another Knight, and swing on the next turn with no mana open. He drops Blood Moon AND Blasts my Knight. I have Deed in hand, but I was sandbagging it for later when I really needed to screw him over. I have Sylvan online, but I proceed to draw NOTHING and die from Frogmite beats.

Game three, I got on the play and attempt to crush the garbage out of him. I drop Deathrite, Sylvan, Knight, Swords, Decay. He has Master of Etheriums, Frogmites, and even Ravager and Cranial Plating join the Party, all falling to the will of a very Abrupt Decay or go Farming. I start beating in with Knight after Wastelanding once, and he starts to build some board presence. Cranial Plating actually starts to become big, so I grab Maze of Ith at some point to make sure I don't get totally mucked (I fetched out all my basics as well). Later on, he has 3 Frogmite, Cranial Plating, and 3 Inkmoth Nexus. That COULD be a problem, but I don't think so. I attack in and he blocks, and then I drop Ulvenwald Tracker and Deathrite Shaman. Time is starting to run out, and he says we should draw, and he'd prefer that to a loss. So, I have to take out my Tracker and Deathrite after they'd done some work to clear out the board, which would leave him with only Blinkmoth and Frogmite. I attack after Deed and he blocks, losing Frogmite, but leaving a last Frogmite. I draw Abrupt Decay during turns, and then try to Abrupt Decay the Frogmite. Judge gives me a warning, and I apologize. I saw removal and slammed it. So, I just STP'd it instead, then used my second Knight to tutor Wasteland for the Inkmoth he decided to turn into a blocker. He dies on Turn 4 of turns.

6-3

Round 4: Martin (4th Place) with 4C Aluren

So, we roll and I'm up first. I play Deathrite Shaman and pass, he plays Misty Rainforest. I drop something irrelevant, He Brainstorms. The issue? He doesn't tap mana, he doesn't show me the Brainstorm, and I allow it, not realizing Brainstorm hadn't entered play. The judge is walking by and we call the Judge (he calls it on himself pretty immediately, I'm still a bit shocked as to what's going on). Judge asks me what's going on, and we both explain what happened accidentally. Martin gets a Game Loss unfortunately, and I don't get to see his hand ever. Sadness.

In: +2 Gaddock Teeg
Out: -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Dark Confidant

Game 2, I still don't really know what's he is playing, but Teeg is good against Blue decks, so I ran with it. I Thoughtseize and I see Aluren. Oh no. I haven't play against Aluren since my friend played it YEARS ago, and it wasn't the Imperial Recruiter version. I'm trying to remember the combo itself. I take Aluren out of his hand, and then pummel him with more discard. I get him to 5 before he's able to get an Intuition for Imperial Recruiters while having other pieces to assemble his combo. Strix is in his yard, but he has Stronghold out. I try to get him with Ooze, but Ooze never lands. At 5 life, he starts to chain Recuiters. I make the mistake thinking he's on his last Recruiter, but turns out, he wasn't. I Abrupt Decay'd the Recruiter with the trigger on the stack, but he got #4. I should have Decayed his Eternal Witness, but I was mistaken in where his combo was, and hadn't seen it to completion.

http://bidwicket.com/Item/C/Collectible_Card_Games/Magic_the_Gathering/Singles/Portal_Three_Kingdoms/38242_1M_Imperial_Recruiter.JPEG
Stupid Imperial Recruiter

In: +3 Surgical Extraction, + 3 Hymn to Tourach
Out: -3 Deathrite Shaman, -2 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Maze of Ith

In Game 3, he ends up ripping apart my hand with Cabal Therapies, and takes my 3 STP in hand. Ouch. I get him to (again), but he managed to topdeck Intuition and win. Obviously! Oh well. I think I tell him I'll get my revenge, and we part ways.

7-5

Round 5: Nate with Maverick

So, I have no idea what it's on, but I won the die roll, and I kept a hand containing Inquisition, Swords, Tarmogoyf, Sylvan Library, and two Fetchlands. Yep, seems good. I Inquisition off of a Swamp, and I see 2 STP, 1 SFM, and 4 Lands. Ouch. I take SFM, and pass. He derdles for a while and I drop Sylvan Library. He can't really do anything, so I get to drop Deathrite Shaman and Goyf. Goyf goes farming, I gain 4. I draw deep with Sylvan then drop Dark Confidant, who also farms. I drop Knight. He farms. Deathrite shaman is slowly working his Magic at some point. He sticks a Scavenging Ooze when he's at 6 lands or something and sucks up all my stuff, and I Plow. He plays Knight off Cavern, I plow. He plays another Knight, I plow some more. So far, 6 STP's run across the table, it was pretty sweet. Meanwhile, Sylvan digs into Knight, which gets up to an 8/8 thanks to some Wastelands from Nate. I derdle around with more creatures, then just start chunking into his life total. He manages to cling on for a while, but I just have too much and he scoops.

I had no idea what he was boarding in for me, since this matchup is very much in my favour. This is the matchup I wanted Golgari Charm.

In: +2 Pernicious Deed, +1 Virtue's Ruin, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Ulvenwald Tracker
Out: -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Nate takes the play, which I'm not sure is where you want to be in a Maverick mirror, but whatever. I guess he feared the discard I no longer had. Again, I fetch up Black and Green and go for Deathrite Shaman into Sylvan Library. Qasali takes out Library the turn after he drops Hierarch. Qasali swings and blows out Sylvan, and I draw a Karakas. I drop Knight, which earns a Plow. He drops Knight, welcome to Abrupt Decay land. He plays Elspeth, hello Maelstrom Pulse. He does something else, I Swords. Eventually, I've got Tarmgoyf, Knight, Ooze, Karakas, Forest, Swamp against his new Linvala while I'm tapped out. Crud. Well, this is going to suck. I draw, but no removal. I attack with Knight, which was bigger than Linvala to get in there, and Goyf also turned sideways. After Linvala, Nate drops Crucible of Worlds and no Wastelands in the bin thanks to my keen Ooze skills. He drops Knight and swings in the air for 4. Again, I don't have removal for either Knight or Linvala. So, I draw Abrupt Decay and muck his Crucible, because otherwise, I'm dying pretty horribly. His Knight is not bigger than mine, and I don't have enough Green for a worthwhile bounce with Karakas, then Ooze him out. I decide to wait out the Linvala attack and hopefully he can't get there with Knight. I forgot to mention I had Deeded on one previous to Crucible to knock out his Noble Hierarchs, so his only lands were Forest, Forest, Cavern of Souls - Human. Linvala now attacks, but I bounce her. He can't risk his mana, but he does and Wastelands me off Karakas. I have Maelstrom Pulse, but no lands. Scryb Ranger joins in, a fetchland gets played, and a Swords eats my Knight. Bah. Tapped Knight is bad. Oh well. Next turn he Wastelands me again, and lifts a and to get more land to recast Linvala, and passes. I rip Bayou and Maelstrom Pulse his Knight. I pass. I drops Jitte, equips, swings with Linvala. The two counters blow out my Ooze, but Goyf is still rocking and rolling.

http://img.aegen.nl/PT/Virtue%27s%20Ruin.jpg
this would have been good to see.

I start attacking after slowly reassembling my manabase, and get the basic Plains. I draw into Sylvan, and get into removal. He swings in, gains some life, you know. I land Knight, grab Maze, then go into Derdle mode. Jitte has counters, but it doesn't matter. I get removal and rumble in for exactsies after using Dryad Arbor as the surprise buttsex EOT off the Fetch. Hooray! My last card sitting in my hand the whole time: the last Inquisition of Kozilek. Ugh.

9-5

Round 6: Ricky with Merfolk

Ricky apparently lost his first round, and needs this to win and in. I asked if his opponent that he lost to was doing well, but he dropped. Since he shuffled a bit poorly, I saw Reejerey. I didn't know this was still a deck. I lose the die roll and have to mull once.

Game one starts with a Deathrite Shaman. Ricky has 1 Wasteland 2 Mutavault, and a Vial. I don't have the Decay for Vial, and he just drops 4 Lords over several turns while countering all the spells I own. I go from 20-19-17-15-12-11-6-2-0. He's at 19.

In: +2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Ulvenwald Tracker, 1 Garruk Relentless
Out: -2 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Thoughtseize

Taking out Thoughtseize on the play is questionable for sure, but the life matters. Plus, this is going to be a long game, and drawing it later is going to suck. I go first (with a Thoughtseize!) and grab a Lord. He runs out Cursecatcher, I run Goyf. Next turn, I try to GSZ for Goyf #2, but he Submerges my first goyf so I don't really get anywhere. He drops a Lord and passes. I land Knight at 4/4, he lets it resolves. He gets more Lords and swings. I get to about 13 and have Knights, but not much else. I play out Dark Confidants as blockers, but end up keeping them just to get cards. I resolved 2 STP and my 2 Decay to wipe out his board. He starts to creep back with more Lords, and I'm low in life and can't push back. He decides to let Confidant kill me, but I lose 6 life off a total of 6 Bob flips (1 was Garruk, 1 was GSZ, one was Inquisition, rest were lands). I GSZ for Shaman and slowly start boosting my life total to 6. He applies pressure, so I muck my Confidants. I get to 2, but still hang on. Tracker joins the party, and that's all she wrote.

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2011/04/14/sylvan_library.jpg
The cause of many judge call headaches

Game 3 I'm on the draw. He lands Vial, and I drop Deathrite Shaman. He counters some stuff, I drop Sylvan. Sylvan digs hard into Goyf and Knight, some get countered, I swords some of his stuff in reply. I get a Knight down and start chunking for 5, he gets me down to 9 when Deathrite starts coming back. Abrupt Decay murders Reejerey, again, changing his math. I drop Goyf to wall up, and then I screw up on Sylvan and dig 4, but only see cards 1,2, and 4. Judge gets called, and he had a problem with my shortcut, and it seems like Ricky is complaining about the shortcut as well. He never had responses to the Sylvan triggers, so it just seemed like a big waste of time. Whatever. I draw more creatures and removal, and crush the Fishies into the ground.

11-6

Round 7: Corbett Gray with Sneak and Show

I played 3 seats down from Corbett in Round 2, so I know he's on some sort of Show and Tell deck; I figured he was on Omni. Perfect. I keep a nice hand of Thoughtseize, Sylvan, Knight, Land, Land, and good stuff. He mulls to 5, unfortunately, with me on the play. I Thoughtseize, and he scoops.

In: +2 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Hymn to tourach, +3 Surgical Extraction
Out: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Garruk Relentless

Game 2 he goes first and has the literal nut draw after Brainstorming back the goods in response to my Inquisiton into his mind. I cast Knight on turn 3, but he has the hard Sneak Attack with Petal to Spaghetti me to 5 life with zero permanents. I draw and play dryad Arbor, but he has the second Emrakul. I scoop.

Game 3, I got on the play and start cooking. I Inquisition, seeing Force, Preordain, Show and Tell, Intuition, Island, Misty, Emrakul. I take Preordain. He plays Island, go. I Hymn, killing Misty and Intuition. He plays Misty and passes. I Hymn again and take SnT and Misty. He groans. He drops another Misty and passes. I Inquisition after seeing one with Top, and he only has Force/Emrakul. I drop Gaddock Teeg, then Surgical Extraction his Show and Tell. Then, he can't do anything. He can't cast Sneak, he doesn't have Show and Tell, and there was no Cunning or Burning Wish. I sat there and beat him down from 19 with Gaddock Teeg and Dryad Arbor. He was a bit upset by my lucksacks, and I am too.

13-8

Round 8: Bryan with Bant

As it turns out, Bryan is a friend of Max McCall, so nice to see another fellow Sourcer. Bryan and I are both 6-1 (or he's close), but his breakers are awful, and mine aren't the greatest. I ask a few people if we can draw in, some say yes, others say no. It looks like if we draw, it's way more likely I'm going to get in, but he wouldn't (I was 5th at the time). So, we decide to play it out and if it goes to time, we'll draw.

Bryan gets to work and goes first, dropping Noble Hierarch. I Thoughtseize on my turn off a Bayou, taking Knight. He cracks a Misty and runs out a Qasali Pridemage. I draw and play Top off a Wasteland. At this point I'm a bit manascrewed. I pass, he Wastelands my Bayou, and I Top to see no lands for three turns. GREAT. He drops Knight the turn after and plays another Wasteland. I pack it up.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240154&type=card
This guy's pretty good...

In: +2 Pernicious Deed, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Virtue's Ruin, +1 Ulvenwald Tracker, +1 Gaddock Teeg (in case he's running Jace)
Out: -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Game 2 I decide to run first, dropping a Deathrite Shaman. He drops Noble and passes. I Swords and drop Confidant. He runs GSZ for Noble #2, I have Abrupt Decay (and Wasteland?) to muck him over a bit. I'm pretty sure this is the game where he stabilizes at 16 and we start doing Knight things. He gets a large Knight on the table, and at that point,I only have Dark Confidant and Dryad Arbor. Luckily for me, Top finds me a Garruk Relentless and a GSZ. Nice. Garruk pops a Scryb Ranger or something to flip, and I use Confidant as a blocker. Next turn, I run out Knight and GSZ. He allows it, but I got find Ulvenwald Tracker for the tricks. Max, watching from the side, just rolls his eyes, and so does Bryan. If he doesn't remove Tracker this turn, he knows he loses. Turns out, he loses. I make his Knight fight a very rapid Wolf, and the game ends very quickly after that.

Game 3 Bryan decides to play. He gets a sizable army of Nobles up, along with Qasali and Sylvan Safekeeper. Bah. I have Sylvan Library, but he pops it once he gets the mana. I'm holding Abrupt Decay and STP, and I'm contemplating just making him sac all his lands to block my removal, but I hold instead. I have outs. He starts beating in and dropping Knights, whereas I have Top, Dryad Arbor, Knight, Goyf, and a bunch of mana to his 3 Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, Sylvan Safekeeper, 2 Knight of the Reliquary, etc. He gets on the Wasteland plan and starts beating in. I draw Pernicious Deed, but can only bust for 2 since I have my own Knight and no more mana. I have to do it. I Deed the board, spinning Top in response, he Qasali's, I get a bit sad. I draw the other card (which is now another piece of removal). I pass, and he rumbles in after more Wastelands (his Knights are 8's or 10's and mine's 2 less). I get Bogged as well at some point, and I go to 5. After the Wastelands though, I'm at an 8/8 Knight. I EOT STP one Knight, and Abrupt Decay the other. He's at 24. I rumble for 8. He draws, passes. I rumble for 8. He draws, and plays nothing relevant. I rumble for eight, and he's shocked he lost. Remember, I wanted to draw.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/td211_f6yxumpzjr.jpg
Dear Wizards, thanks for printing something good that's not blue. Sincerely, non-blue players...

15-9

---------------------------------------------------

Now the Top 8 is announced. With 21 Points, I end up being Top Seed in the Top 8, meaning I get to play first. Being the discard deck, this is huge. They take my deck for the Top 8 check, but there's some confusion over how many Garruk Relentless I'm running (since I only have one regular and one Checklist card). But, it all gets figured out. However, they made me resleeve my Beta duals, since they didn't want to take the chance to muck them up :cool:

Here's the Top 8 information:

http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/1376_legacy_open_top_8_profiles.html

So, we take our photos, I have a Latte; things are looking up for Matt. I find out we can split top 8, and I'm on that. We ended up splitting the Top 8 for $750 each. Now, was this the wisest choice? Maybe not, but I think everyone had a fun day, and was just interested in playing for glory. I mean, now that I know I came 2nd, I would have opted more for Top 4 Split, but I'm totally fine with the money I earned.

My matches for the finals were either on camera, or written about by Reuben. I'll post the links.

Quarterfinals:

http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/inquisitive_minds_quarterfinal.html

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/td/td83_jace.jpg
Raid didn't even get to cast his Jace. That sucked :(

Raid was a good kid. I was joking around with him before the game, but he seemed super tense. I asked him some choices about his decklist and how long he's played Legacy, but he didn't want to talk too much. I pegged him for being very new to Legacy, and I recognized the list as a pretty stock Esper Stoneblade list. I noticed two things: No Counterbalance, no Entreat, no Terminus, no Wasteland. In theory, this should be a cakewalk, and with Abrupt Decay, boy, it was. Raid was a good guy though, it was nice to meet him!

Sideboarding:
In: +3 Hymn to tourach, +2 Gaddock Teeg
Out: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Garruk Relentless

17-9

Semifinals:

In the Semi-Finals, I played against Martin once again, but this time, I had to exact my revenge. He drew somewhat poorly, and I drew cards that I needed.

Sideboarding:
In: +3 Hymn to tourach, + 3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Gaddock Teeg
Out: -2 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Dark Confidant, -3 Deathrite Shaman?, -1 Random

19-9

Finals:

http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/the_tide_comes_in_finals_felin.html

The finals, as I saw, was now between two Sourcers, myself and Feline! I was happy to see another Sourcer, but not the happiest to see High Tide. I would have preferred RUG Delver, considering he was also VERY new to Legacy. I had to mull both games, and I only saw mediocre hands. They were fine, but Feline ripped VERY well and I just didn't. I couldn't mull too far because then you end up with hand without a combination of pressure and discard; you end up getting one or the other, which is not where you want to be as a non-blue deck against Combo.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/td186_high.jpg
We'll meet again, High Tide, we'll meet again...

If I had had hands like against Corbett, then I think I could have gotten there. But, I'm not even mad. Feline played a good game and knew her stuff. She played the fastest High Tide match I'd ever seen someone play, and could count at a reasonable pace.

Congrats again!

------------

So, I wanted to say thanks to the people here on the Source and that are a part of Surrey Legacy Group for the testing, ideas, etc. All of my opponents were pretty great (excluding some dickish moves from some, but I beat them, so it didn't matter). The coverage was great, judges were great, and the staff was excellent. I had a great time!

Props:

Coming 2nd, more cash for Beta duals.
Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Deathrite Shaman
New Sleeves!

Slops:

Missing the win in Aluren in Round 4.
Not winning against High Tide.
Getting held up at the border.

Regards,

-Matt

sdematt

11-23-2012, 12:43 PM

By cutting Knights, you're essentially cutting acceleration and a Planeswalker, in addition to a finisher.

a) Is there somewhere StP is a lot better then Jitte? Some matchup I am not thinking about.
b) Is top uncuttable? I loved Jitte + Sylvan in jund. But maybe 1 top and 1 sylvan is better?
c) How good is knight right now? With so many 3's I think I only want two. I expect more Deathrites (this card is bananas) so thats another reason to limit knights in my mind.
d) What matchups do wastelands excel in? I haven't played a ton of legacy since the summer, but that card was impressing me less and less then. Combo decks weren't really vulnerable to mana screw. RUG could mana screw you as much they get screwed (and they can't win if we just cast our spells). Didn't do a ton against Miracles/Stoneforge.

a) STP is better in the, "I need real removal" matchup. The one where they play creatures you need to kill. I'm sorry if I'm being a bit facetious, but STP is very good at removing creatures without a condition, whereas Jitte is slow and pings small things. That's fine against Goblins, but you still need STP to back you up. It's the reason why it's an automatic 4-of in white decks.

b) Top is cuttable if you needed to. I found Sylvan did more work on Sunday, but this wasn't to say Top was ever bad.

c) Knight's very good. You can mana fix, Wasteland, Karakas, and then beat down later. It's a planeswalker that destroys lands that turns into a creature and attacks later on. I'd rather have Knight and just kill their Deathrite than play less Knight. Plus, you can always use your Deathrite to muck the land they target so they don't get the mana.

d) Wastelands excel in matchups where they have lots of nonbasics, you need to kill a specialty land, or they are colour or mana hungry. You use it mostly against Maverick, but also if players get greedy or to pump your Knights. It kills Mutavault, dual lands, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, etc. You COULD play without them, but you'd be losing a bit of edge. Sometimes, players get greedy and fetch all nonbasics, then you can set them back 2-3 turns with Wasteland tutoring off Knight.

-------

I think where you may be having issues is that you're trying to make a Lingering Souls deck out of this deck by cutting everything that makes Junk a deck. If you want to be all in on tokens, don't screw around with Knights at all, run SFM, Dark Confidant, and such and run a straight up BW Tokens deck, which is pretty good at the moment.

-Matt

Hapless Researcher

11-23-2012, 01:30 PM

By cutting Knights, you're essentially cutting acceleration and a Planeswalker, in addition to a finisher.

a) STP is better in the, "I need real removal" matchup. The one where they play creatures you need to kill. I'm sorry if I'm being a bit facetious, but STP is very good at removing creatures without a condition, whereas Jitte is slow and pings small things. That's fine against Goblins, but you still need STP to back you up. It's the reason why it's an automatic 4-of in white decks.

b) Top is cuttable if you needed to. I found Sylvan did more work on Sunday, but this wasn't to say Top was ever bad.

c) Knight's very good. You can mana fix, Wasteland, Karakas, and then beat down later. It's a planeswalker that destroys lands that turns into a creature and attacks later on. I'd rather have Knight and just kill their Deathrite than play less Knight. Plus, you can always use your Deathrite to muck the land they target so they don't get the mana.

d) Wastelands excel in matchups where they have lots of nonbasics, you need to kill a specialty land, or they are colour or mana hungry. You use it mostly against Maverick, but also if players get greedy or to pump your Knights. It kills Mutavault, dual lands, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, etc. You COULD play without them, but you'd be losing a bit of edge. Sometimes, players get greedy and fetch all nonbasics, then you can set them back 2-3 turns with Wasteland tutoring off Knight.

-------

I think where you may be having issues is that you're trying to make a Lingering Souls deck out of this deck by cutting everything that makes Junk a deck. If you want to be all in on tokens, don't screw around with Knights at all, run SFM, Dark Confidant, and such and run a straight up BW Tokens deck, which is pretty good at the moment.

-Matt

Based on the list you took to the Open, what would you consider the cards that underperformed the most, and what changes would you make?

Barbed Blightning

11-23-2012, 04:11 PM

@Matt: you mentioned in your report that Linvala was beating you down something fierce in you maverick matchup, but you also said you had a Karakas out. Was it wasted by the time she started swinging?

Regardless, obviously an awesome report & job at the Open. I'm curious: how good is Garruk and Uvenwald, and why no Liliana (I know you mentioned a page or so back that you dislike it, but is there a reason for it)? I'm working at the Rock right now, but do you have any suggestions for creatures to take goyf's place in the meanwhile?

Thanks!

sdematt

11-23-2012, 10:03 PM

Based on the list you took to the Open, what would you consider the cards that underperformed the most, and what changes would you make?

The article I'm writing for a certain major website is going to talk about this, but if I had to give a hint, Timely was never brought in from the board (but I also never faced RUG Delver, so...), Ooze was only okay (obviously it was the nutters against Reanimator, but overall, I didn't gain as much as I thought I would in the Maverick match), and there's a few others I'll discuss.

Barbed Blightning

@Matt: you mentioned in your report that Linvala was beating you down something fierce in you maverick matchup, but you also said you had a Karakas out. Was it wasted by the time she started swinging?

Regardless, obviously an awesome report & job at the Open. I'm curious: how good is Garruk and Uvenwald, and why no Liliana (I know you mentioned a page or so back that you dislike it, but is there a reason for it)? I'm working at the Rock right now, but do you have any suggestions for creatures to take goyf's place in the meanwhile?

I got to use Karakas once before it got Wastelanded. I needed to tap it for mana to play something, then the next turn I bounced, then I got Wastelanded, then Linvala was recasted.

Garruk is actually REALLY good. In the non-aggro, non-combo matchups, he's fierce. You really don't want him against:

High Tide
RUG Delver
Storm variants/any Combo
Reanimator

Anything where's you fighting a creature or control game, you want Garruk. Maverick, Bant, Merfolk, Miracles all have a hard time dealing with Garruk. Pooping a token makes Terminus a lot less good, deathtouch Wolves against Maverick are really great and the Overrun helps seal the game and changes the way they need to do combat math, etc. Liliana doesn't change this match significantly. Yes, Liliana does muck cards, but against Miracles, that's not the greatest. Sure, they discard a card per turn, but that doesn't help against an active Jace, whereas Wolf tokens on the attack may. Liliana mucks a creature for -2, but producing a deathtouch blocker +1 is what Garruk does, which essentially mucks a creature. Neither can be Show and Telled, so that's moot. The card discard isn't symmetrical against most non-combo decks because you always have cards you want to play that will sit in your hand; you have more cards you want to play than mana, most of the time, so getting rid of answers is not necessarily key. Against High Tide, Liliana is fine, at least moreso than Garruk. The pace of High Tide is enough such that the 1 card per turn could actually put them in danger where Garruk doesn't. I just don't like the fact Liliana doesn't do as much, at least for the build I'm playing.

If you're not running Goyfs, I'd say run:

4 Knight
4 Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

You don't have as much actual fat, but you're got some of the utility cards from the board, as well as cards that hate on other Tarmogoyfs (aka. Ooze and Tracker to fight Knight vs. Goyf should it come up).

-Matt

Zeckk

11-24-2012, 09:11 PM

I'm sure Matt will explain the lack of liliana in his article, but this is what it's boiled down to for me - Liliy is great, if she sticks. Right now, will RUG Delver and a host of miracles decks sporting spell pierces and dazes, it's just too hard to land her without being a VERY dedicated discard deck, which opens your deck up to certain weaknesses against the field and affects your sideboard slotting. As much as I like liliana, she's just a different direction for the deck.

If you're not running Goyfs, I'd say run:

4 Knight
4 Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

You don't have as much actual fat, but you're got some of the utility cards from the board, as well as cards that hate on other Tarmogoyfs (aka. Ooze and Tracker to fight Knight vs. Goyf should it come up).

This is very close to the creature shell I was running before switching to the stoneforge shell. I don't really agree with tracker and teeg maindeck, though that's usually because miracles has so many answers to teeg maindeck that a single teeg is usually worthless.

sdematt

11-24-2012, 10:34 PM

True, but they have to dig for Swords.

I just won a GPT tonight for Denver, facing High Tide in the finals ; I got my revenge by beating them 2-0. :cool:

-Matt

Hapless Researcher

11-24-2012, 10:36 PM

True, but they have to dig for Swords.

I just won a GPT tonight for Denver, facing High Tide in the finals ; I got my revenge by beating them 2-0. :cool:

-Matt

What was the list? Gonna post a Tourney Report?

Gratz.

ZeinVoncy

11-24-2012, 11:16 PM

True, but they have to dig for Swords.

I just won a GPT tonight for Denver, facing High Tide in the finals ; I got my revenge by beating them 2-0. :cool:

-Matt

I just cannot LoL enough, congrats Matt! As one of the hardest working Rock players, its deserving. I just wish I had enough time to throw my deck into a few tournies here to represent as well. Looking forward to your article, would you at least do us the privilege of letting us know which site to gaze upon?

sdematt

11-24-2012, 11:32 PM

stealth

11-24-2012, 11:38 PM

I just cannot LoL enough, congrats Matt! As one of the hardest working Rock players, its deserving. I just wish I had enough time to throw my deck into a few tournies here to represent as well. Looking forward to your article, would you at least do us the privilege of letting us know which site to gaze upon?

The report is on the previous page.

Hapless Researcher

11-25-2012, 12:19 AM

May I ask why it is that most Rock lists are running 61 cards in the main?

sdematt

11-25-2012, 01:11 AM

May I ask why it is that most Rock lists are running 61 cards in the main?

Because you have enough card draw and filter to get through a ton of cards, and you're a control deck much of the time: you want to have an answer. If I consider Garruk my 61st, he's done way more work at 61 than my 60 could have done.

The statistical disadvantages are present, numbers don't lie. How much the disadvantage is is minimal, but present. There was a thread on this, and calculating the differences are super awful and hard to do, but again, we're running land and creature toolboxes, so I like to squeeze in the extra bullet. Another marginal benefit is if they try to Brain Freeze or BSZ you for exact, you're just next-leveled them, but that's pretty corner case :tongue:

Also, I'm a big fan of the so-called "61 card special." Some might say it's not optimized, but my results speak for themselves.

-Matt

Zeckk

11-25-2012, 06:30 AM

It's Eternal Central. I know they're kind of smaller now, but it's still better than nothing.

I'll write a tournament report Tuesday night; I've got a project and a lab exam due Tuesday :/

The list was the same except the sideboard was:

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Virtue's Ruin

And to note: the 70/76 card mirror match is dreadful. I had to play it. It was a great ego-boost, but awful to grind out.

-Matt

I can't really agree with the 3 Hymns in the side. The only matchups I see you wanting them are RUG Delver (in which case there are better options), SnT (in which case there are better options), and Pox (which is a trash matchup anyway). Heck, the lack of mox diamonds in your 75 is the biggest reason I don't understand the hymns, since turn 1 hymn was one of the only reasons hymn was still seeing play.

Viridia

11-25-2012, 06:41 AM

I'm pretty sure the Hymns are mainly there for combo matchups, so you can go T1 Discard - T2 Hymn - T3 Threat/Discard

AggroSteve

11-25-2012, 08:21 AM

Hi guys, i was on a small tournament in vienna last wednesday.
It was awesome, so many nice people, i just wish i would live near there (not approximately 5 hours of train away :P)

i had a suboptimal list to play with, but mainly due to lack of old duals, so i had to play with shocklands and therefore did not expect that much of a good finish :P. On the contrary i went 3-1 (7-3-0 in games) in 4 rounds of swiss that rather surprised me, if i had some old duals maybe i could have finished first :wink:

ok now my list and a report ,big part is out of memory because i did not take notes :P

LIST

23 lands (3 wasteland, 1 bojuka-bog, 1 karakas, 6 duals being 3 overgrown tomb, 3 godless shrine)

4 deathrite shaman (finaly got them and mox diamonds were switched out for this little guy)
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay
3 vindicate (still love this one, and they helped a lot because hitting a land i still soooo valuable at times, its unbeleavable)

3 senseis divining top
2 liliana of the veil

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach

SIDEBOARD

2 pernicious deed
2 zealos persecution
2 path to exile
3 extirpate (i prefer non-counterability over 0-mana surgical extraxtion)
2 timely reinforcements
2 gerrards verdicts (forgot both my duresses and inquisitions at home)
2 gaddock teeg

a few things to the list:

sdmatt is completely right with the liliana argument, but i think using her over garruk depends a bit on playstyle and meta, in my case i haven't got a garruk and i love lily, even if sometimes she is a bit conditional, not being a beating everytime she lands, but does not matter to me, at worst she is an edict effect
vindicate is still awesome, and coupled with hymn and wasteland it gives you a viable manadenial plan which helped me quite a few times in the tournament
DEATHRITE SHAMAN is the most recent addition to my deck, and i simply have to say: "HE IS AWESOME", specially in multiples, and often underestimated. At first i was sceptical, but he is way better than mox diamond IMO, as he is in fact another must-handle-card for most opponents, and not even a bad clock if you got 2 in the field :P
Hyme is still great, but probably the weakest card in the maindeck and is the only card i thought of replacing for more targeted discard, but still it is card-advantage and together with vindicate a reasonable choice for a maindeck card

To the tournament (just a short report because i did only take notes on the 1st Round :P

1st Round: Hannes with Maverick (very nice redhead :P) 2:1

Game 1: I lead with a thoughtseize on his hierarch followed by a turn 2 thoughtseize on his knight, leaving his hand with only a jitte, a wasteland and other lands. I waste his savannah and abrupt decay his jitte in response to a thalia, which was attached to his dryad arbor. I play a 5/5 knight followed by a 4/5 Goyf starting to beat face, topdecked liliana makes him sac his thalia and turn after makes him discard his last card in hand which was garruk. WIN
Board in: 2 persecution, 2 deed, 2 path to exile
Game 2: I keep a strange hand with 3 thoughtseize, confidant and lands after a mulligan to 6, he starts with savannah and gives the turn to me, i go with thoughtseize seing 2 or 3 thalia and a GSZ, picking a thalia, his 2nd turn thalia screws with my plans of discarding his relevant stuff, he further slows me down with 2 wastelands and ultimately beats me with 3 small guys, removing my stuff with either a jitte or swords to plowshares. LOSS
Game 3: Game 3 was a blast, i got so nervous i began shaking in the last minutes of the game :D. Sadly from this game i stopped taking notes, but it was a back and forth the whole time, with me discarding his stuff, him removing my knights. I zealos persecutioned his hierarch and thalia and play a goyf afterwards followed by a knight. I shrink his knight with bojuka bog, he shrinks my stuff back with his topdecked bojuka bog, making my knight as worthless as his, and my goyf was even smaller than anything else on the table :(. i get to remove his knight but he still got a thalia, a scryb ranger and a quasali in play, while my knight and goyf ironically were to small to fight back (at least knight grows fast :P). I get beaten down to 4 with a exalted scryb ranger and topdeck a deed while he is tapped out (cannot remember why) and luckily i got a knight still in play to be able to play my deed and immideately blow it for 2, because of my knight fetching another land. His board got whiped clean and leaving me with my 5/5 knight while he was at 9 lifepoints. After the boardwhipe he played elspeth, immideately making a token for lethal next turn. I topdeck a divining top, searching the top not finding a thing, then using a fetch and find swords to plowshares, path to exile and a vindicate on top (what a lucky bastard i am :P), i start removing his tokens every turn and beating with my knight until he concedes 1 minite before time out was called. WIN

2nd Round: Michael with Reanimator 2:0

Game 1: He wanted to go first but hat to mulligan to 5 so i had a lot of time and an awesome hand against him. He lead with Polluted Delta, go. I play my Godless Shrine into Deathrite Shaman, he fetches a Underground Sea for Brainstorm but misses to Force my Shaman (misplay on his part as he said after the game). 2nd turn i play Karakas leaving him with a sad face and try to vindicate his only land, which he daces leaving me with an additional tempo-andvantage. 3rd Turn i play confidant leaving karakas open. 4th turn he finally gets a griselbrand in game but gets immideately bounced but still getting him 7 cards, as he sees that he had no chance of winning. WIN
Board in: 3 extirpate, 2 path to exile (out went hymn and 1 liliana)
Game 2: He has to mulligan again to 6, i have 2 thoughtseize, 1 goyf and 1 swords to plowshares in hand. He daces my first thoughtseize, but is now open to my second one. He had no discard-outlet and i stripped him of his reanimate, while drawing 2 consecutive extirpates. WIN

3rd Round: Stefan with Canadian/RUG Delver 2:0
I really got lucky in both games. When i saw his first turn i told him, that this game will probably go to him, but appearingly my deck loves me :P
Game 1: He leads with ponder (luckily no delver), and i Wasteland his Tropical. He drops another land but has no counterbackup, i drop a shaman and the next turn i drop knight number 1 which gets immideately forced, he plays a nimble mongoose and burns my shaman to hell. I try to get rid of goose which gets removed from the game, but he followed it with another one. I play my 2nd Knight being 4/4 that gets dismembered, but only after wasting 1 of his 2 lands. i want to vindicate his other land, but this meets force. The Turn after i play liliana number 1, which gets spell pierced, and the following turn i get to play liliana number 2 killing his mongoose, he burns down my liliana, but draws nothing relevant anymore, while i get to play 2 deathrite shamans and a confidant eating away his life quite fast.
Board in: 2 gerrards verdict, 2 timely reinforcements, 2 path to exile (boarding out hymne and vindicate, leaving a singe hymne in the deck)
Game 2: First turn thoughtseize which resolves from my side, stripping his spell snare (i think away), he lands a topdecked Goose afterwards. I play my 2nd turn hymn stripping 2 lands from his hand :eek:. The turn after the goose gets removed and his only land in play gets wastelanded, manascrewing him completely. He draws no other land and a goyf is eating 4 of his lifepoints a turn until he concedes.

Both of us actually could not believe that i won, specially with shocklands.

4th Round: Roman with Canadian/RUG Delver 1:2

Game 1: He leads with delver turn 1, followed by a second one turn 2, i get rid of the first flipped one, but he playes a 3rd one right after, making this game extremely short, and i do not get to do much because of his double stifle in hand cutting me of green mana, while i had 2 abrupt decays in hand.
Boarding: same as before only leaving a 2nd hymn in the deck this time and removing a confidant in its place
Game 2: Again i get to see 1st turn delver which is removed immideately. Sadly i do not remember much of this game, but i know that 2 deathrite shamans and a goyf safed my ass from getting burned out, and i got my opponent manascrewed again :laugh: with double wasteland. He did not draw another land for over 3 turns, and the one he draws gets wastelanded as well
Game 3: 1st and 2nd turn Delver again, but i get to handle both of them with a sword and a path to exile but they ate quite a lot of my lifepoints (together with shocklands obviously). My 1st reinforcements get forced, but my second lands giving me 3 tokens against his lonely 1/1 goose (with him having 4 cards in the grave) and i went up to 10 life again. I thought i got lucky but next turn he double submerged 2 of my tokens and bolted the other one, giving his mongoose shrowd and 3/3. I lose life again until i go to 4 again. but my Goyf save the day (at least i thought) until he gets submerged as well. finaly i somehow removed the goose after a bojuka bog and a path to exile still leaving me with 4 life. my opponent has only 1 card in hand which is ponder, and i draw a knight i could play the turn after so i could wasteland his only red mana next turn. Roman plays ponder, smiling a bit, ..... End of turn Bolt to my face getting me to 1, and then he draws another bolt and smashes it into my face. If i had 1 turn more time i could have turned the table.

Fazit: The deck is just awesome, and shamans really are great. Bojuka bog is really good and will never ever go out of the deck again. It helped quite a lot. I was surprised to be in the top ranks even with shocklands in my deck instead of real duals. Maverick was the most exhausting match i had to fight, and manascrewing RUG-Delver is really funny, with it being extremely strange that the only game i won against RUG-Delver were the ones i got to manascrew them. I find this to be quite intresting.
I was really happy with the deck, and going 3:1 on my first competitive Legacy-Tournament (even if just a small one) was really cool, and is most thanks to this thread.
thanks guys

ZeinVoncy

11-25-2012, 09:12 AM

The report is on the previous page.

I mentioned report no where's, but I did mention the article he's writing for another site . . .

It's Eternal Central. I know they're kind of smaller now, but it's still better than nothing.

-Matt

I know of the site, used to check it out all the time until they made a few changes (I think membership vs non-membership) and I lost interest in the information (and I don't pay for any memberships) they were giving, though Stephan does offer some of the best advice for Vintage.

And to the 61 cards, a lot of ppl start getting in statistics with that, and depending on what type of deck you're playing(combo having the strongest statistical importance) a 61st card is viable. I've done it on occasion and had no dramatic change in the out of the game.

Hapless Researcher

11-25-2012, 02:06 PM

So, I've been testing Lingering Souls, and it made me wonder if Cabal Therapy might suit this build?

I'm considering it possibly as a Thoughtseize replacement since it can be card advantage. Am I crazy?

lavafrogg

11-25-2012, 10:07 PM

Sorry I have been gone!! Congrats Matt!!

ESG

11-27-2012, 03:15 AM

Another marginal benefit is if they try to Brain Freeze or BSZ you for exact, you're just next-leveled them, but that's pretty corner case :tongue

I'm a staunch supporter of 60 cards rather than 61, but this argument is hilarious and I want to see it happen. That would be the best.

sdematt

11-27-2012, 12:27 PM

I'm a staunch supporter of 60 cards rather than 61, but this argument is hilarious and I want to see it happen. That would be the best.

This did happen once when I was playing Aggro Loam against Spring Tide or whatever, the Reset High Tide deck. I was playing a 62-card mainboard for testing, so my opponent milled me for exactly what would be my 60th card, since he counted out my hand, graveyard, and stuff in play. Turns out, he was 2 cards off and I killed him :P

-Matt

Claymore

11-27-2012, 01:18 PM

While a valid tactic, I learned at a Star City IQ that the amount of cards in your library is public information so they can just ask you what's left.

Sughayyer

11-27-2012, 02:38 PM

Hey guys, I've been out for a while, but now I'm getting back! Now that the year is ending I'll have a little more time to paly and to brew....

I'd like to ask, where is this deck right now? I'vebeen hearing different stuff, I've seen jund lists and bug lists, and pretty much everything with green and black is running shaman.
I'll probably sleeve this deck again, but what is the best direction right now? Tempo (like I played before), midrange, stoneforge package... keep W? Splash any other color?
My last list, if I remember was something like

4 seize
4 hymn
4 plowshares
3 decay
1 pulse
3 moxen
3 top
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 garruk relentless
and the same 23 lands everyone was running (4 waste and 1 maze included)

Does this still work? I tampered a bit with shaman, and I liked him, after all, but he never gets to stay long enough on the field... when i tested him, it was against a bug and a jund, and I was completely smashed.

Thanks again, and I hope I'll stick for a longer time now!

Mr. Safety

11-27-2012, 06:19 PM

How viable would a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland + Loam/Crucible build be right now? Curious...Sinkhole is at its lowest price in a long time (Unlimited ones are about $32 a piece ATM) and it seems that a heavy land disruption approach could be good.

Thoughts?

Sughayyer

11-27-2012, 08:59 PM

sdematt

11-28-2012, 12:20 AM

I'm now 6000 words into my article. Prepare for a long read or a two-parter.

The article is now mostly done, I'm just going to get some proofreading done and format it a bit and see how we're going to release it.

-Matt

lavafrogg

11-28-2012, 02:12 AM

Mirrislegend

11-28-2012, 04:38 PM

@ Matt:

How was it having so little acceleration, especially with GSZ?

Did you ever find yourself wishing for more anti combo cards? How about wishing for the 4th Abrupt Decay?

I cut Dryad Arbor cuz it kept screwing me over. Clearly it was good for you based on your tournament report, but would you reconsider it in a more Wasteland heavy field?

Mr. Safety

11-28-2012, 06:07 PM

@Mr. Safety
I see you like LD strategy. But sinkholes are getting cheaper because it's not being used anymore.
See, you do 2 or 3 mana (sinkhole or vindicate) to destroy a land. Assuming your opponent didn't counter you, nor use a reliquary to sac that land and get another one, he can simply daze the land away (in the case of canadian and team america)... and even if you spend 2 or 3 mana to crack a land, with *one* mana (you spent at least 2 remember) they can ponder/brainstorm/spin the top and find another land.

A while ago I saw your list full of 3-drops, and you said that canadian was not a problem... how the matches turned out?

I actually like Arena better than Bob in that matchup...it can't be Bolt-ed and most players don't counter it like they would Bob. They should, but they don't. The hold their counters for Knight, GSZ, and other threats. If I get to use a discard on them, I almost always pick Spell Pierce. Force 2-for-1's them and a free Daze slows down their development enough, especially if I get an early Wasteland, so I'd rather just play around daze and let them dump their goo with Force. Then my removal can get in and create parity. Generally, I've found that a strong board-control approach, along with a way to get extra cards like Bob, Arena, or Library, trumps a strong stack-control approach. Abrupt Decay is definately the best card against Canadian, and Deathrite Shaman is good at making my three drops seem like two drops, keeping pace with their faster tempo.

So far I've only played one match, went 2-1 (online.) I've dropped Loam altogether (it's just too much dead weight, honestly.) I worked in the 4th Wasteland, fixed my lands a little (dropped Nantuko Monastary, now only using Treetop Village) and the deck has been doing well. On the play with a turn one Deathrite Shaman is great, especially If I can use targeted discard to get a Liliana down. Then it's the same plan: establish parity by removing threats/discard and then ride a PW or Deathrite to victory (garruk, liliana, or Knight, which I think Matt is correct in saying is a PW in all aspects except for card type.)

A side note: both games I won were close, and the one I lost was a blowout. I got color-screwed off green (holy shit that's bad, I know right?) and had a fistful of green stuff.

I've also done a 2/2 split on Deed/Hymn, whereas before I've tried 3x of one or the other maindeck, the other in the side. I'm happy with it, I see quite a bit of goblins and affinity.

dballard

11-28-2012, 08:32 PM

Hey guys, new to "The Rock" and just had a couple of card questions, forgive me if they've been discussed in the previous 196 pages.

I'm looking at some sort of inclusion of Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Terravore - any thoughts?

Also wondering about Vexing Shusher to help land some spells.

Lastly, in play testing I often hit both Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top and I'm wondering if 2 of each is too much and if I were to drop one of them, which would it be?

Thanks for the help in advance.

Mr. Safety

11-28-2012, 09:27 PM

Shusher might be just the right GSZ target to make the Canadian matchup better. Thanks for the reminder!

As far as Loam, Crime, and Terravore are concerned...It's a little too complicated. You're trying to assemble synergy when what you REALLY want is every card good on its own. Trust me...I've played a lot of different variations with Loam, and I recently dropped all copies. I played 4 for a while, then 3, then down to 1, now none. I'm considering a singleton for the sideboard because it's great against tempo decks, but I'm not sure my SB has room. If you're really into using Loam/Crime/Terravore, check out an Intuition/Loam BUG setup like 'The Mind Harvester.' Those cards lend themselves more to a grinding control deck than they do to a mid-range aggro-control deck like the Rock. *shrug* Just some personal experience. I love the Loam/cycle lands/R-Crime synergy, absolutely love it. It just isn't top tier, and I wanted to win more games against top tier decks.

Sughayyer

11-28-2012, 09:33 PM

Hey everyone!

Played again after a long and cold winter :p went 3-0, and I conceeded the last match to a friend from my team (he top 4'd the national legacy event here in Brazil, playing bug - different list than team america, pratically a the rock with blue).

I ran the list:

Creatures:
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

Removals:
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

Planeswalkers:
2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk relentless

Artifacts:
3 sensei's divining top

Discards:
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek

Lands;
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 overgrown tomb (meh)
1 karakas
1 sejiri steppe
1 swamp
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 maze of ith

Sideboard (a mess)

2 pernicious deed
2 oblivion ring
2 engineered plague (I thought there were going to be elves and goblins, but they didn't play their usual decks, so these were kept sleeping on the deckbox)
3 duress
1 life from the loam
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
1 diabolic edict (don't know why, didn't ned it)

It's too late in the night to write a full report (I can do it later if you want) but I played agaisnt RUG (2-0, very easy matches), ant (2-1, first game I did mull to five but almost win nonetheless), GW maverick (2-0, VERY easy), and our BUG (I conceeded, but we played for fun, interesting results.... I won the first game and lost the other two thanks to hymn to tourach + snapcaster for hymn to tourach, made possible by shaman. Made me think about that card again....)

Well, thanks again, and good night!

H0tmilk

11-28-2012, 10:47 PM

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

sdematt

11-28-2012, 11:01 PM

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

I used to run two Jitte in 2011 and they were fine at the time. However, as of late, I have no slots for them, and perhaps not enough creature to run them. Jitte is never a bad card, so I'd definitely say give it a test for your build. what are you running?

-Matt

lavafrogg

11-29-2012, 12:51 AM

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

Our creatures are big enough. After trying SFM + equipment and just plain jittes I have switched back to the goyf plan because he is just much better than the crap people try to put into the red zone these days.

godofallu

11-29-2012, 01:22 AM

Here is my current list. I'm having great success with it lately and am planning on going to a local tourney with it soon.

http://deckstats.net/deck-1686347-96e92638e71ff2df93efaf5941063b67.html

Couple of points I think need to be talked about for Rock. Liliana and the discard package.

Personally when Liliana was first printed I dismissed her as being a bad removal spell not seeing the power of her +1. Now after playing with her a lot I think she is potentially the best card in the deck and I couldn't imagine not running her. She locks opponents out of games when combined with Confidant/Arena/KOTR + Horizons/SFaI and will put both players into topdeck mode quickly where this deck shines otherwise.

As far as the discard package goes I started Junk style with 6 1cc discard (even split of IOK and TS) and now currently play 0. I was told over and over that it is needed to have a chance against combo but frankly I don't find it to beat combo at all, and it just slows down the early game and is dead in the mid-late game weakening the entire strength of a midranged deck. Not sure if anyone else has tested cutting 1cc discard but I would love to hear the results of others on this.

lordofthepit

11-29-2012, 02:25 AM

Time to fess up: I stated earlier didn't think Deathrite Shaman would make the cut in Rock.

While I still don't think it's as great as everyone claims it is, it's clear that most Rock decks appear to benefit from its inclusion at the cost of a mana rock or a Birds of Paradise. Congrats to sdematt (who I spoke to at SCG Seattle) for representing with the deck!

H0tmilk

11-29-2012, 07:57 AM

Zeckk

11-29-2012, 08:00 AM

Our creatures are big enough. After trying SFM + equipment and just plain jittes I have switched back to the goyf plan because he is just much better than the crap people try to put into the red zone these days.

It's not about the creature size, it's about the removal option. The SFM package is what gives us a realistic maindeck gameplan against tribal aggro and RUG. RUG now has to worry about deathrites, decay, AND batterskull + jitte. I've heard plenty of valid arguments for focusing on either the GSZ toolbox or the SFM package, but the biggest reason I'm running SFM right now is because it simply frees up more slots for sideboard. With such a great maindeck against most of the aggro lists, I really only have to devote 2 SB slots for E Plague, and possibly a darkblast. Everything else helps against our actual tough matchups, i.e. SnT, miracles, stoneblade, and ANT/High Tide/Storm.

godofallu

11-29-2012, 01:40 PM

It's not about the creature size, it's about the removal option. The SFM package is what gives us a realistic maindeck gameplan against tribal aggro and RUG. RUG now has to worry about deathrites, decay, AND batterskull + jitte. I've heard plenty of valid arguments for focusing on either the GSZ toolbox or the SFM package, but the biggest reason I'm running SFM right now is because it simply frees up more slots for sideboard. With such a great maindeck against most of the aggro lists, I really only have to devote 2 SB slots for E Plague, and possibly a darkblast. Everything else helps against our actual tough matchups, i.e. SnT, miracles, stoneblade, and ANT/High Tide/Storm.

I disagree. The SFM package isn't much better against aggro, and aggro decks are the ones Rock a midranged deck already does pretty well against. Going all in on a piece of equipment is more like flipping a coin. If they have artifact destruction you just spent multiple turns on that 1 card which is often enough to cause you to loose.

Having 2 extra giant creatures in play, or extra removal however will stop tribal decks from turning sideways.

The real strength of GSZ though is ramping into a t2 KOTR or Liliana AND giving options to fight combo through teeg/ooze/Kotr -> Karakas/Bog.

If you were running a token strategy SFM would probably be for the best, but when your creatures are usually 4/5+ you don't need that extra push IMO.

Zeckk

11-29-2012, 06:32 PM

I disagree. The SFM package isn't much better against aggro, and aggro decks are the ones Rock a midranged deck already does pretty well against. Going all in on a piece of equipment is more like flipping a coin. If they have artifact destruction you just spent multiple turns on that 1 card which is often enough to cause you to loose.

Having 2 extra giant creatures in play, or extra removal however will stop tribal decks from turning sideways.

The real strength of GSZ though is ramping into a t2 KOTR or Liliana AND giving options to fight combo through teeg/ooze/Kotr -> Karakas/Bog.

If you were running a token strategy SFM would probably be for the best, but when your creatures are usually 4/5+ you don't need that extra push IMO.

I would take a jitte over a KOTR against goblins any day of the week. Same goes for elves, and merfolk. In most of my matches, KOTR only shines against SnT, RUG, and Reanimator due to fetching karakas/wasteland and being outside of bolt range.

lavafrogg

11-29-2012, 07:37 PM

I would take a jitte over a KOTR against goblins any day of the week. Same goes for elves, and merfolk. In most of my matches, KOTR only shines against SnT, RUG, and Reanimator due to fetching karakas/wasteland and being outside of bolt range.

Except for the fact that Knight is never dropped from Rock and the debate would be Goyf vs SFM/jitte and Goyf is much better against tribal and RUG. Against goblins you need to play a wall turn 2 not a creature that cannot block because it wants to drop a batterskull or equip a jitte, RUG will also stifle/burn your SFM and ancient grudge your equipment so they can swing in. Your goyf will always block their goyf.

Sughayyer

11-29-2012, 10:02 PM

Stoneforge Mystic at a first glance seems like a really good idea, until you realize you have to dedicate a lot of space for it to be useful. If you simply run a batterskull, you are wasting 4-5 slots for a strategy that can be neutralized easily enough, and if you run more euquipment, you need a large creature base (and going that way means playing with a bad GW deck, because we'll add in black but we'll have to cut disruptions to free more space for the larger creature base).
We are wasting slots and turns to play with a strategy that may not work because we can't protect it.

On a different subject now: would it be viable to run dark depths + hexmage? of course, the deck would need a lot of changes, but even so.... could it work, or is it simply a waste of time? I was thinking about it because hexmage actually does stuff: kills planeswalkers (jace) and it can kill scavenging ooze in combat (dealing first strike damage then sacrificing itself). Could it be a viable option for sideboard, maybe?

sdematt

11-30-2012, 12:29 AM

Hapless Researcher

11-30-2012, 02:10 AM

In testing I've been approaching this with a Slightly different take, removing KoTR and utilizing Liliana of the Veil. The deck's been running similarly to a Team Italia build replacing Red for Green.

Anyone interested in a list?

Barbed Blightning

11-30-2012, 02:12 AM

Hey, here's what I think I am running at SCG Baltimore:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vindicate
1 Bojuka Bog

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse

The sideboard is my issue. I'm concerned about the Burn/UR Delver matchup, since you're guaranteed to run into one or the other at these events. Thoughts?

Hapless Researcher

11-30-2012, 02:16 AM

Valtrix

11-30-2012, 02:18 AM

Sun Droplet OP. Delver and Goose so slow at one damage a turn!

But more seriously, life gain attached to creatures tends to give RUG problems, since they're mostly geared at ending the game early. As such that's why things like Kitchen Finks and Timely reinforcements are actually pretty strong against them.

ryn ball_2

11-30-2012, 03:21 AM

You forgot that in response to your Hexmage, they could just Wasteland your Dark Depths. Or use Knight to tutor for Wasteland to kill your Dark Depths. Or Swords to Plowshares your token. Or bounce your token with Jace. Or...

I don't think it's worth it, suffice to say :tongue:

-Matt

Playing a dark depths deck is kinda risky if you know that opponent deck has wasteland you should line up 2 hexmage in a sequence of hexmage-->DD-->wasteland--->hexmage--->DD, or popping out the DD using hexmage "if" the coast is clear FTW. Honestly i tried this deck junk depths with living wish but in the post mental misstep era in the era of stoneblades w/c the deck weaken so much w/o the MM your hexmage and marit mage are not protected from STP or your hexmage is not protected from spell snare or stifle. If you want to play dark depths i would recommend using chalice of the voids to protect your pcs chalice for 1 protect your hexmage and marit mage from stps. But todays meta since the inclusion of terminus makes the DD decks fragile atm.
And 1 more thing, karakas :smile:

Atm i want to switch to GSZ build, tool box is good and also recyclability of GSZ w/c is good and another thing i can get out again the creature that is been terminus esp thrun the last troll, Thinking of list w/ right number of creatures w/ gsz :smile:

godofallu

11-30-2012, 03:23 AM

Maybe i'm crazy but my favorite anti-burn is Leyline of Sanctity. Plus it stops or at least partially stops most combo decks.

Sughayyer

11-30-2012, 04:59 AM

Ok DD idea aborted :D
regarding burn, when I ran that tutor sb package, I used 1 conversin and it was nuts (can't be removed easily, shuts monored decks forever and can't be needled). Other nice options are gerrard's veredict and rest for the weary (8 life seems a good breather). Also, when I ran hymn to tourach the match was much easier.
Regarding playing without knight: knight is the only reason I don't switch to DGA permanently. I can see the deck without goyf, but not without knight.... His ability to tutor karakas, maze, bojuka bog and even sejiri steppe (this is pretty cool) plus the fact that an untapped knight actually is also protecting you lands is really fantastic.
Another thing: a friend suggested me to throw in some (2-3) lingering souls for some grindy matches and to allow cabal therapy shenanigans. I'll try it out and as soon as I get results I'll tell you

crow_mw

11-30-2012, 07:04 AM

Hi guys. Rock always had a very kind community so hopefully you don't mind that I drop this simple question here. As a bit of background I have ragequited Magic after ban of Survival. Now I am poking here and there to maybe come back with something between Maverick, Nit Pick and/or Rock (though none of them seem to be as fun to play as Survival :<).

The question is - what is so hot about Deathrite Shaman? I am not too up to date with current meta nor mechanical tricks (untapping KotR with Maze of Ith after damage? That is a new shenanigan), but when I look at this card I would not pick it over BoP nor Hierarch. His 1/2 body I guess is nice when blocking Goblin Lackey, but other than that I don't think that fire//ice is a common enough card give enough value to his fat 2 body. His mana generating ability, which I guess is the main reason he sees play, seems just sooo conditional. Sure, it should not be that difficult to activate him once on turn 3, but a mana hungry deck like Rock surely would rather have a more reliable source of mana? Also it seems like oftentimes activating him would come at a price of shrinking your goyf and/or Kotr, which hardly seems like good idea. Obviously as a plus side, he can shrink enemy kotr and act as a GY hate. But in this department he also seems very lacking and much wore than Ooze. All in all at first sight this card, while very wide, seems very poor at everything it tries to achieve. Is the variety of applications (even though they are lacking) the main reason people pick him up, or is there something I am omitting?

vennie

11-30-2012, 08:09 AM

You should not forget that he's a removal magnet and that he gives you some reach by making opponents lose 2 life per turn and or gain you some life to reduce the bleeding vs burn/RUG/UR delver etc.

Sughayyer

11-30-2012, 09:06 AM

Regarding Shaman, he can also change snapcaster mage's ability into "make a sad face" -- and he also can disrupt a PiF combo, if you remove a key spell.
About shrinking knights, lavafrogg once said something like "knight is usually the biggest creature in the field, and shaman will make it be always bigger than your opponent's knight". This is true. Making him -1/-1 is not an issue when you can make him +2 +2 each turn (opp eot, tap, get fech, crack for land etc......)
I found that he doesn't shrinks goyf, or at least not that much. We have a lot of instants and sorceries (as well as our opponents in most cases). I still didn't have an issue with that.

Barbed Blightning

11-30-2012, 10:56 AM

Not to forget that Deathrite and Scavenging Ooze are super best friends, esp. against RUG. Exile a land from their yard to exile a creature, gaining you life and incremental power? More, please.

@Timely Reinforcements: what should I cut from my board to make room for it? It seems like the most legit burn hate posted. What about Warmth and/or Kor Firewalker? Is jitte too slow for this deck?

sdematt

11-30-2012, 12:26 PM

2 top's
2 jitte
1 vindicate
1 maelstrom
2 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 gsz
4 swords
4 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
1 ooze
3 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
8 fetch
4 wasteland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 maze
3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1forest
1 swamp
1 plains

sideboard
1 Oring
2 garruk relentless
3 hymn
1 golgari charm
2 teeg
2 deed
1extripate
2 surgical
1 bajuka bog

So I have a few questions:

1) Why the Vindicate/Pulse split? I'd suggest the Pulse for the fact that most of the time, you're going to get some incremental advantage by have the multiples clause, whereas having the one Vindicate to hit lands seems subpar. It's the reason why Miracles is running Detention Sphere, so I think you should be running Pulse.

2) you have no way to search out Lingering Souls like Stoneblade did with Intuition, however, I think you only want three. It's good, but you want 3-4 Abrupt Decay.

3) I think because you're so mana intensive with Souls, I'd run 2 Sylvan Library instead of the 2 Tops so you don't have to worry about Topping. It's also super duper incredible against Miracles.

My suggestions:

2 Sylvan Library
2 jitte
2 maelstrom
4 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 gsz
4 swords
3 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
1 ooze
3 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
8 fetch
4 wasteland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 maze
3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1forest
1 swamp
1 plains

For your sideboard:

1) I'd suggest 3 Surgical just for the being free unless you really plan on playing against 43 Lands. It's better overlap against Combo, but slightly worse against High Tide.

2) Bog is definitely good in the Knight vs. Knight battles, but I'm really just wondering if you want Virtue's Ruin. It does kill your tokens, though. Also, Golgari Charm will kill all of your tokens if you cast it, so you may want to consider Zealous Persecution instead. I know it doesn't kill enchantments, but meh.

I'm thinking:

1 Kitchen Finks (for RUG)
2 Garruk relentless
3 Hymn
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed
3 Surgical
1 Bojuka bog

Let me know how it goes!

-Matt

Esper3k

11-30-2012, 12:43 PM

Only 3 Thoughtseize? I always feel naked unless I'm playing 6 or more 1 drop hand disruption spells.

I'm also not a huge fan of Deed + Lingering Souls, but at least by the very nature of Lingering Souls, it is somewhat resilient to Deed.

sdematt

11-30-2012, 12:44 PM

I'm not a huge fan of only 3 hand disruption either, but I'm assuming that's how he wants to play it, so I'm going to let him go with it.

-Matt

Sughayyer

11-30-2012, 02:25 PM

Since there are 3 lingering souls, wouldn't it be wise to run at least a pair of Cabal Therapies? Maybe on the sideboard?

sdematt

11-30-2012, 06:37 PM

Meh, i guess he could, but I don't see it being 100% necessary.

-Matt

AggroSteve

11-30-2012, 08:57 PM

On the lingering souls topic, i did try them in the rock, with different configutations (but allways without SFM, i have to admit), meaning 2 MD jitte, 3-4 lingering souls just for its power, but i never really came to like the card, at least in "The Rock". IMHO lingering souls is not a card we should use in a rock-type deck, simply because we have access to goyf and knight, the 2 biggest ceatures in the format (aside of reanimated or show and telled ceatures), so why bother with a bunch of little pooping flyers.

On the disruption package; there are a few different configurations running around, but i think discard is part of what gives us the edge over other GW decks, and IMO either you go at least with 6 tarteted 1 CMC discard spells or 4 thoughtseize + 4 hymn to tourach. This obviously depends on each players list and playstyle.
I for my part am running 4 thoughtseize + 4 hymn, BECAUSE i am running wastelands and 3 vindicates (instead of pulses) to make the mana disruption plan viable.
You would be surprised against how many decks this mana-disruption package still works (surprisingly even against tempodecks like RUG-Delver, as long you get the mana to cast vindicate, which should not be that hard with 23 lands plus 3-4 shamans).

On deathrite shaman, most of the Rock-Players probably were sceptical initially, as i was, but this little elf is just awesome in many ways. I was using a full Playset of Mox Diamonds prior to using deathrite shaman and i am soooo happy i switched to deathrite shamans. This little creature is a threat by itself. It is a small clock (with reach) WHILE disrupting the opponents devolopement, which is just awesome, plus IMO he is not comparable to BoP or hierarch, which are plain simple manadorks.
To get a clearer picture on Deathrite shaman you probably got to use him in actual games, theory-crafting helps not a bit when thinking of this card as he is way to versatile (which is his great virtue).
To be clear, you wont be using him for mana more then 3 times a game at most, the rest of the time he either pings your opponent or gives you lifepoints.

sdematt

11-30-2012, 09:24 PM

A section out of the article regarding Deathrite Shaman:

"I’ve read posts here and there and have heard rumblings and results of Shaman being great in Modern. The problem is, Modern isn’t Legacy, so I had my doubts about this guy from the get-go since a card being great in Modern doesn’t necessarily translate to being worthwhile in Legacy. As soon as people said he was, “an automatic four-of,” I had my doubts. Few cards deserve the phrase of automatic four-of. That’s rubbing elbows with the likes of Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Mishra’s Workshop, and most other cards that people have called to be banned or have been banned for being too good as a four-of. I started testing Shaman by shaving slots out of the maindeck. My doubts were initially caused by two factors. One: does Junk need a mana acceleration dork? Two: are his abilities good enough to be worth his inclusion?

The former question is usually a flat no. Over the past two years, people other than and including myself have touted Mox Diamond, Birds of Paradise, and Noble Hierarch as the answer to Junk becoming the next big thing. The myth of the “turn one Hymn to Tourach” is too good for some ignore, and many people start playing card disadvantage-ridden Mox Diamonds in hopes of pulling of that spectacular play that you brag about to your friends for days. Sure, turn 1 Hymns, Bobs, Stoneforges, and a multitude of other plays are great, but they don’t accomplish your goal. Junk runs between 22 and 24 lands, with 2-5 not being mana producing or fetches. Throwing away lands needlessly leads to Turn 1 Hymns, but Turn 2 through 4 stalls and losses. I for one feel that the line of thinking of playing a card that causes you card disadvantage immediately, as well as in the late game, is not a viable line of play at this point in Legacy. Each accelerant had their own side effects that made their inclusion not worth the effort. This changed with Deathrite Shaman due to mana fixing as well as being a utility creature when you needed him to be. He’s like a flip-card that goes from mana dork to utility creature, which is everything Junk has been looking for in an acceleration body. I’ll walk you through why each ability is such a step forward for BWG midrange.

Exiling lands from either graveyard is not only good for colour fixing and acceleration, but recall that Knight of the Reliquary is a card. Removing their lands can accelerate you and be advantageous in future combat scenarios. Loam-based decks, or even decks just playing Loam for value, now get less value out of their cards. That’s good. 43 Lands, although a minor player in the overall Legacy scene, now has something else to deal with. You don’t even need to want mana with this ability; you can just use it to nuke lands that have gone into the bin for value. I’ve found the mana ability to be relevant usually within the first three to four turns, which is when we transition into the other two tap abilities.

The exiling of instants and sorceries is another great utility piece attached to Deathrite Shaman. Snapcaster Mage for a long time was a major player in UW Control Decks, but his popularity is now waning with the move to a Miracle-based control deck. Exiling instants and sorceries means not only does Snapcaster get weaker, but the main advantage is the life lose. It gets around Glacial Chasm locks, Solitary Confinement, and advanced combat states. Creature combat can get messy, and many times, players are afraid to advance the board since there’s no clear winner. Knights, Mother of Runes, Exalted triggers and such all gum up the board and usually cause situations where someone waits for a bomb card to gain value, either by Equipment, evasion, protection, etc. Deathrite Shaman exploits these common stall situations by slowly picking away at the opponent. The argument of weakening Tarmogoyf has merit, but with all the Instants and Sorceries people are playing, you should have no trouble making the opponent lose two while still taking Tarmogoyf to their face.

The last ability of sucking up creatures for life is also great for tight matchups where you need to gain life to survive. RUG Delver, Burn, UR Delver, and even just regular Maverick matchups all flirt with life totals close to our demise for one reason or another, and just boosting your life by two points can mean the difference between winning and not. It nicely hates out Reanimator and Dredge in addition to gaining life. The whole package, however, is what makes Deathrite unique. He’s also a 1/2 in offense and defense, which is much more useful than Noble Hierarch. Now that the bragging about the two newest additions are out of the way and why I’ve decided to include them, let’s see what we cut for them.

The most important aspects of finding new tech is not how many to include, but what to cut from the current decklist you have, and why. Abrupt Decay filled a niche where some 1-of utility cards were lying. Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, and another copy of Maelstrom Pulse were replaced by three copies of Decay, and I couldn’t have been happier. I’ve switched removal and utility for better removal and utility. Deathrite Shaman was a bit trickier. He filled a niche that I had already cut from the deck over a year ago, so it was time to cull my babies. Ulvenwald Tracker is a fantastic card, and if I had another slot, I would add him back in first, but he didn’t pull his weight in some matchups, whereas Deathrite always did work. Scavenging Ooze #2 was replaced by another Deathrite, since their roles overlapped and the versatility of Deathrite won out. I havne’t missed Ooze #2 as of yet, since I am running three copies of Green Sun’s Zenith, as well. The last cut for Deathrite #3 was Qasali Pridemage. Pridemage seemed to be a vestigial silver bullet from the days of Mental Misstep-era Blade Control. Qasali Pridemage blowing out Batterskull was an insane play in 2011, but in 2012, this wasn’t an issue. Tricky artifacts and enchantments were already mostly handled by Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, and Batterskull isn’t a major player at the moment (and Abrupt Decay handles the Germ, if you really wanted to). The flexibility of Deathrite once again won out over Qasali Pridemage. Some of my contemporaries disagree with this cut, but so far, I haven’t missed Qasali at all. Abrupt Decay does really shine that much."

-Matt

Lord_Mcdonalds

11-30-2012, 11:59 PM

Decided to take a stab at this Junk thing..that sounded painful actually :eek:

Creatures:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze

Instants/Sorceries:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts:
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Top:
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Don't really think there is anything too out of the ordinary

somethingdotdotdot

12-01-2012, 04:17 AM

crow_mw

12-01-2012, 08:41 AM

Mr. Safety

12-01-2012, 09:25 AM

So I guess theres a divide between using sfm and gsz in this deck. Personally, I don't like gsz as much since it grabs all of your creatures for 1 extra mana and doesn't provide true card advantage. However, another issue is that almost all of the creatures in rock depend on the graveyard to some extent. Knight, goyf, and shaman all need the yard to do their work. This means that all of them get shut down by rest in peace--I realize there are 6-7 outs after RIP lands, but even then, its a bit of a reset button and it'll take a couple of turns to refill the yard. Gsz doesn't solve that problem at all, but sfm helps alleviate it by using graveyard independent cards (equipment) that will turn your stuff big and scary. Has this been an issue for anybody so far?

(Maybe there is an ongoing conversation you're referring to, but I'm answering this one in a vacuum.)

GSZ isn't intended to be card advantage. I think you are confusing the purpose of Junk/Rock. It has always been, and will always be, fundamentally an aggro deck. My experience with The Rock is that it isn't concerned as much about card advantage as it is with threat density, efficiency of answer spells, and ways of outclassing other decks with tempo advantage (either advancing your own or stifling your opponent.) I liken GSZ to Survival, when it was a toolbox enabler to aggro decks before the Vengevine absurdity that took place. It found the right threat to work against opponents and relied on the graveyard. Both enablers need(ed) the graveyard for peak efficiency, but neither auto-loses to graveyard hate.

That's the beauty of Knight of the Reliquary and Deathrite Shaman. Knight can re-load the graveyard once RiP is dealt with and Shaman doesn't need your graveyard at all for most of the game. Once again, he does fine once RiP is dealt with.

This leads to another point about graveyard hate: Junk/Rock aren't the only ones utilizing the graveyard. There are so many strategies using the graveyard right now (Snapcaster Mage, Past in Flames, Knight of the Reliquary.) I find it odd that a deck that uses white (the first example I can think of is Maverick) would use a card that also hoses their own threats (Knight, Goyf.) With graveyard use rampant, the two cards in question (Knight and Shaman) aren't as risky as they seem.

Just some thoughts...could be totally wrong, it's happened before.

somethingdotdotdot

12-01-2012, 09:46 AM

Well, I understand the usefulness of gsz isn't meant for card advantage, but rather a draw smoother of sorts (kind of like brainstorm). It gives you what you need, when you need it. I understand that, but most of the decks running it are simply running them to be extra kotr's. The only tool-box like creature most decks run nowadays are oozes. I personally haven't tested gsz in a rock shell in a couple of months (before shaman was printed)--perhaps shaman makes the mana cost more bearable, but I've personally felt gsz was a bit too mana intensive at times in this deck.

As for the graveyard hate: the fact that almost every deck in the format uses the graveyard to some extent means that RIP is just that much more attractive as an answer. I'm personally running it in the board of UW miracles (siding out the 2 snapcasters; and thus having no gy usage) and every time I've resolved it vs rock/junk, its put them behind about 3-4 turns. This is even if they happen to destroy it that turn. Goyfs need to regrow and it tends to be slower since most of the discard has already been used by the time RIP hits (mid-game most of the time); kotr can regrow, but you start to run into that region where you may not have anything left to cycle into (if you happened to use her a couple of times before hand); and dr shaman basically becomes a 1/2 that might ping 1-2 times if you're lucky (I don't understand what you mean by shaman doesn't need the graveyard--literally every one of its abilities requires you to exile something). This is all assuming that you have the answer to RIP. If you don't then, 0/1 goyfs, 2/2 kotr, and 1/2's dont seem super impressive as a clock.

sdematt

12-01-2012, 12:23 PM

I'll agree with the fact you need to answer RIP very soon after it lands, yes. However, only one deck is playing many copies, and Miracles sometimes plays one.

I will agree with the fact that Equipment allows you to leave RIP on board and still have relevant attackers. I think if RIP is a huge deal in your meta, then you should pack more Abrupt Decay (max them out) and running SFM isn't a bad idea. Even 2 SFM and 1 Equipment is better than nothing, in that case.

GSZ and SFM are both good cards, but I think you're right in the fact that there is some competition for slots with the two. My version of the deck is more based on GSZ - I'm running silver bullet creatures because I'm running GSZ. If I wasn't running GSZ, all those choices become not the greatest. GSZ will give you redundancy with the creature you're already running, but SFM will give you the Equipment edge. I'll just tell you that in the mirror, GSZ wins this fight, but in some matchups, you want GSZ, whereas others, like Tribal, you'll want SFM. It's really up to you. SFM seems to be a bit more of an aggro plan, whereas GSZ seems to belong in the grindy versions, such as mine. You could run both, but what do you cut? How many do you run of each? Etc.

I think, meta depending, you could run 2 GSZ in the main, and your board could be:

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 SFM
1 Batterskull/whatever
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Deed
1 Open

So you could bring it in when you really wanted it, or just leave it out entirely.

-Matt

Valtrix

12-01-2012, 12:57 PM

Don't forget that GSZ can also get dryad arbor. Accelerating your plays can be pretty huge too, in my experience. Even if it just accelerates via Dryad arbor, gets GY hate via Ooze (or Shaman), get Gaddock Teeg out of the board, and is an extra copy of Knight/Goyf, that seems like plenty of utility to me for one extra G.

Esper3k

12-01-2012, 12:59 PM

GSZ also plays a lot better with Bob (Flip Batterskull, ouch!).

In the GSZ lists, I think I'd really want to have at least 1x Pridemage right now though due to the prevalence of CB and how badly RIP wrecks Goyf / Knight.

sdematt

12-01-2012, 01:42 PM

Mr. Safety

12-01-2012, 02:24 PM

If you think you're getting a GSZ off for a Qasali, you may be mistaken. As the Miracles player, I know to counter that move ALL DAY LONG. Obviously if you can get it, great. However, I haven't found Qasali to be pulling its weight. I'd just rather load up on moar Abrupt Decays.

-Matt

Great post, because I think it 'begs the question': what are our GSZ targets by frequency?

Mine go, roughly, like this:

1) Deathrite Shaman
2) Dryad Arbor
3) Tarmogoyf
4) Eternal Witness
5) Qasali Pridemage
6) Knight of the Reliquary
7) Kitchen Finks

You may think it looks odd to see Witness being fetched more often than Knight...that's because I'm playing a full set of knights and see one in most games, allowing GSZ to do other work for me. Witness is great in a grinding situation, and sometimes Kitchen Finks gives you a great pad to your life total in order to get to your end-game. (Note: I use Volrath's Stronghold, so Witness/Finks are absurdly good in the late game. It's the primary reason I'm keeping Pridemage in the maindeck as well, I see a decent amount of Affinity, making a recurring Pridemage fairly decent. Countering GSZ is a real problem, as stated, but it isn't as bad as Terminus or Swords, those deny the graveyard shenanigans.)

Concerning the 1-extra mana for GSZ, making it seem slow: most folks are playing a full set of Shaman. It has been a long time since there was a 4-shot of Birds-type of acceleration in Rock. It's good, really good. Three drops hit on turn 2 (Liliana, Deed, Pulse, Vindicate, Knight, GSZ = 2) making the seemingly slower tempo not really that slow. That's why Shaman is a must kill/counter in the early game, and yet he doesn't suck ass like Birds in the late game.

dballard

12-01-2012, 02:54 PM

I'm having an issue keeping Dark Confidant on the field, do you guys typically see him lasting long enough to really take advantage of him?

Also, wondering how quickly you seek out Maze of Ith? Because of the abuse we can do with it I'm tempted to grab it pretty early but I really fear losing it to Wasteland. Then again that might be better than losing a dual land.

godofallu

12-01-2012, 05:34 PM

GSZ- Lowers average casting cost for Bob.
Finds acceleration for t1.
Finds grave hate.
Finds land destruction.
Finds maze as pseudo removal.
Finds artifact/enchantment destruction.
Finds Teeg for anti combo/walkers
Finds finishers.
Increases threat density due to shuffle effect.
Can be a sorcery in yard when countered which helps tarmogoyf.
Has a flexible casting cost which dodges counter-top and spell snare.

That's the list of good things it does. I still only run 2, but it is pretty nice.

As to Bob eating removal: Who cares. If they use a removal on Bob they won't have it for KOTR. They remove him asap because he is powerful, it's a testament to his ability.

JadeOberg

12-02-2012, 12:55 PM

KobeBryan

12-02-2012, 06:43 PM

Why doesn't anyone board in EP in the board. Its good against maverick, goblins, merfolk, belcher

sdematt

12-02-2012, 08:36 PM

Because you have other cards that are better as they're more broad. Plague is that best at what its doing, however, the question remains if you're seeing those matchups or not.

-Matt

dballard

12-02-2012, 09:29 PM

Anyone tried Funeral Charm? I know the discard is their choice but instant speed, creature manipulation and possible endgame helper?? Seems like a great choice so what am I missing?

sdematt

12-03-2012, 12:02 AM

Because Thoughtseize is better. You'll probably mainly want it for mucking a card, but it's their choice, so it's not THAT good. Swampwalk is nearly irrelevant, and the +2/-1 is only good every once in a while. It's doing different things, but not well. I used to play that card back in B/W ages ago, but it just doesn't cut the mustard.

-Matt

.Ix

12-03-2012, 03:06 AM

Regarding playing without knight: knight is the only reason I don't switch to DGA permanently. I can see the deck without goyf, but not without knight.... His ability to tutor karakas, maze, bojuka bog and even sejiri steppe (this is pretty cool) plus the fact that an untapped knight actually is also protecting you lands is really fantastic.

I agree. I think the biggest weakness of DGA is not having scary threats, and Knight is a fat threat that does a billion things that happen to go very well with the disruption plan.

Another thing: a friend suggested me to throw in some (2-3) lingering souls for some grindy matches and to allow cabal therapy shenanigans. I'll try it out and as soon as I get results I'll tell you

I've been running a Souls-therapy package for some time now and I've been very happy with them. Then again, my meta is relatively predictable so I don't brick too much with Therapy. With Knight in the deck, Gavony Township is a powerful combat trick and a fast clock with souls.

I'm not sure how "the rock" it is, but this is what I run:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gavony Township
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

My meta has a lot of aggro, tribal, Affinity, and no control/graveyard decks. That's why the main has 1 PTE, 2 Pridemage, 2 Jitte, 2 Stoneforge and no planeswalkers.

Dyvith

12-03-2012, 11:02 AM

Went X-2 at SCG Baltimore. You won't find my list on the SCG page because after splitting with Edgar Flores in the last round, I crushed him but gave him the win cause I didn't really care and he wanted his name up their. Oh well.

I lost round one to BUG Delver because he drew action and I drew many lands, many many many many lands, and they wish death upon me. I then went 7-1 crawling back only to lose to RUG Delver in round four because I didn't put him on RUG and game one I walked into stifle with a land light hand and he had all the wastelands, and in game two I mulliganed to six, kept another land light hand, and proceeded to get demolished again. Though I played twenty three lands on the day, I felt like I had none of the lands ever. In fact, the only game in the entire tournament where I flooded was against BUG.

Sad day.

I beat Bant in three (Game one and two, I mulled and had Bog in my opener. Game two, I naturally drew the second bog on my first draw step. Sick life.) I beat UW twice, one of which was Edgar in the last round. I beat a RUG player once. I beat goblins because 2x E. plague is a thing. I beat Show and Tell because he went off turn one and I had this cute card in my hand called Karakas. I also beat Scapeshift because Garruk overruns real well past Veteran Explorer blockers.

As for the list... This is what I ran.

4 Goyf
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Knight
3 Lilly
2 Inquisition
4 Thoughtseise
4 Swords
3 Decay
1 Garruk
3 Tops
1 Diamond
4 Verdant
3 Flats
1 Heath
2 Scrub
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bog
1 Karakas
1 Mase
1 Canopy
4 Waste

SB:

1 Golgari Charm
1 Darkblast
2 E. Plague
2 Choke
2 Pridemage
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
1 Cannonist
1 Duress
1 Bog

Making these changes:
MD:
-1 Bog, +1 Flats
-1 Liliana, +1 Vindicate
SB:
-1 Darkblast, +1 Decay

Choke was also miserable for me on the day, but I already crush stoneblade and I didn't play against Miracles, so I'm slightly biased. Against RUG, I was always behind and never felt like I could make the play because their counters are basically free anyway. Against BUG, they play either basics, or bayous, and abrupt decay.

sdematt

12-03-2012, 11:28 AM

Told you Garruk was amazing.

Your Mox Diamond should be a Sylvan Library. Choke is also pretty darn miserable right now, I agree.

Congrats on the finish, champ!

-Matt

Dyvith

12-03-2012, 11:32 AM

Library just seems so miserable

Barbed Blightning

12-03-2012, 11:52 AM

Did X-3 at Baltimore, with losses to Enchantress, Goblins and Miracles. the first was a punt in game three by failing to play Gaddock Teeg, opting for Knight to beat him down harder, and him playing replenish (his only card in hand). The second was because I failed to have E. Plague in my board (I do now) and triple relic of progenitus is pretty okay against Goyf. The last was because I drew infinite lands.

Wins were against Burn, UWr Standstill, Dredge, Goblins, Mirror Elves and Zombardment. Did pretty well for my first time playing the Rock, I think.

The list:

4 Knight
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Deathrite

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 STP
3 Abrupt

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Sensei's Top
1 Diamond

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Bog
1 Maze
1 Karakas

Side:
2 Choke
2 Hymn
2 Teeg
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Extirpate
2 Deed
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
1 Duress

Changes:

Main:
-1 Diamond, +1 Vindicate (I was dying for something to kill Humility, Moat and Jace all day, and the most diamond did all day was pump goyf.)

SB:

-2 Hymn, +2 Plague
-1 Zealous, +1 Golgari Charm (realized today that it blows up enchantments like Moat/Humility, and can regen your dudes through a Verdict/Deed. RTFC, right?)
-2 Timely, +2 Thalia (card was dead all day)

Coolest moment: wasting two fetches against miracles, with a decay in hand. He didn't want to lose his top.

Not-so-hot moment: Mulliganing an opening hand game one versus dredge with a savannah, bog, deathrite shaman and inquisition (I wanted the T1 discard).

All in all, though, a great day of magic. Love the deck.

Dyvith

12-03-2012, 12:00 PM

Did you miss the Canopy? Also, perhaps if we cut Diamond we add a 24th land?

If we limit our toolbox to 3 cards instead of 4, does Canopy stay or Bog?

Vindicate or Liliana #3?

Hmm...

Also, hi JC

sdematt

12-03-2012, 12:04 PM

Library is better than Top some of the time. I would say most of the time, I want Sylvan Library rather than Top, since I can actually draw the extra cards that I end up seeing.

-Matt

sdematt

12-03-2012, 12:35 PM

Barbed Blightning

12-03-2012, 01:34 PM

Did you miss the Canopy? Also, perhaps if we cut Diamond we add a 24th land?

If we limit our toolbox to 3 cards instead of 4, does Canopy stay or Bog?

Vindicate or Liliana #3?

Hmm...

Also, hi JC

Personally, I love Bog, since the big decks like Threshold and/or having a full yard. Canopy has always been an iffy card for me in the decks I have ran it in; sometimes the extra draw is the nuts, other times you just draw extra lands. Admittedly, Top/Library help that draw be relevant, but between fetches and Bob, I don't feel good pinging myself to make mana without a source of solid lifegain in the main.

If I added the 24th land, it'd probably be a basic plains.

I like 3 liliana and a vindicate, actually. Lilly's great at disrupting aggro and control simultaneously, and with Bob out, you never worry about losing relevant cards. She also defuses a bog in your hand if you want to preserve both yards (against, say, goblins). Vindicate is a catch-all, though Maelstrom Pule is probably just better for the multiple hits. I like the idea of a 5th wasteland effect, though, and I think Vindicate will hit what you want it to 80% of the time.

On the note of library: I think it depends on the build you're running. A more Maverick-style deck like yours, Matt, needs the mana for Zenith, Tracker, etc. so leaving mana up to spin isn't really an option. I do like how you can dig deeper with Library and Top, though. I prefer the 3 tops since they allow more instant-speed effects.

Regardless, though, I think so long as you're running some kind of draw-correction, Junk will excel.

Also, hey Greg!

Claymore

12-03-2012, 01:42 PM

On the note of library: I think it depends on the build you're running. A more Maverick-style deck like yours, Matt, needs the mana for Zenith, Tracker, etc. so leaving mana up to spin isn't really an option.

Mirri's Guile?

Loxmatii

12-03-2012, 03:45 PM

Esper3k

12-03-2012, 03:54 PM

I feel like I may be adjusting me board as well:

3 Hymn
2 Teeg
3 Surgical
2 Deed
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Golgari Charm
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Garruk Relentless

I still feel like I want Abrupt Decay #4, but cutting something for it may be a challenge.

-Matt

Have you tried a 4/3 split of Decay / StP?

I know common practices tell us to play 3/4 the other way, but I've been playing the 4/3 and haven't been really missing the 4th StP. There's just so many more things AD is better against that StP doesn't handle (CB, RIP, Jitte, tempo blue decks, etc.).

Valtrix

12-03-2012, 03:55 PM

Just think about your question for a moment. Do you always have to use Shaman for mana? It's always a judgement call--sometimes the tempo is nice, other times you may want the lands for damage.

Esper3k

12-03-2012, 03:57 PM

Barbed Blightning

12-03-2012, 04:00 PM

Sughayyer

12-03-2012, 05:17 PM

@babrbed blightning
why the miser vindicate? I find the pulse is more useful today because it is a W mana less to cast (we already need b ang g in most other spells, so we'll never get stuck with screwed colors) and has the multi target bonus (when relevant).

@all
I couldn't test a lot, but I'm making room for 2 lingering souls on the sideboard (mainly to deal with the grindy bug midrange match). And since I'm at it, I'll replace 1 duress from the board for a cabal therapy.

sdematt

12-03-2012, 06:21 PM

hello, everyone

dont laugh at me. but i have a very stupid questions. i believe that you answered it thousands of time. but can you answer it one more time, plz

i cant understand an interaction of shaman and knight. ok. i unserstand, that if an opponent has lands in grave, we use shaman as a bird. but! if we have only our lands in grave. how can we use shaman, thinking about big knight as a main win condition? i just cant understand. i tried different list of shaman_rock, but most of all i just had knights 4/4 or somehing like it after rapid beginning with a lot of removal and discard

Вы правы. Рыцарь является главным условием победы, но обычно только удалить одну или две земли от собственного кладбища, так как вы не используете маны способности часто в игре. Вы используете только он, может быть, максимум четыре раза всего, и надеюсь, что две или три из них могут быть кладбище оппонента. Большинство других раз, когда вы используете его для слива жизни или удалить существ.

You are correct. Knight is the main win condition, but you usually only remove one or two lands from your own graveyard, since you do not use the mana ability often in the game. You are only using it maybe a maximum of four times total, so hopefully two or three of those can be your opponent's graveyard. Most of the other time you are using him to drain life or remove creatures.

i played dark horizons for years(a lot of discard and removal, 4 tarmo, 4 knights, 4 conf). the plan was very simple. discard all opponents remoavl and threats and killing by great knight with 2 attacks.

План по сути то же самое, но шаман дать вам немного больше гибкости и основной палубе ненависть против других палубах. Он очень хорошо.

The plan is essentially the same, but the Shaman give you a bit more versatility and main deck hate against other decks. He's very good.

what is a plan now? with active shaman(and may be opponent's shaman) we can use knight to find wastelands and utilities. and thats all?

Вы по-прежнему атакует рыцарь, однако он может быть одним мощности меньше, чем раньше. С Шаман, это менее мощные атаки компенсируется но жизнь слива способности, которые не используют боевые шаг, и это более полезно в ситуациях, существо стойло.

You are still attacking with Knight, but he might be one power smaller than before. With Shaman, this less powerful attack is compensated but the life draining ability that does not use the combat step, and is more useful in creature stall situations.

Спасибо.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning

12-03-2012, 07:09 PM

@babrbed blightning
why the miser vindicate? I find the pulse is more useful today because it is a W mana less to cast (we already need b ang g in most other spells, so we'll never get stuck with screwed colors) and has the multi target bonus (when relevant).

Mostly nostalgia on my part--Vindicate is probably one of my favorite cards of all time. My issue with pulse is friendly fire and that is cannot hit lands (which I think is relevant.)

Sughayyer

12-03-2012, 08:15 PM

@Barbed
if you stopped at friendly fire I would say it's really rare (and also it's a 1-of pulse). But why did you have to say that thing about lands? We'd talk about land destruction if you ran 4 vindicates (and/or sinkholes and samallpoxen) but as 1-of?
Anyway, people also don't understand a lot of my decisions while building, so cheers! Good luck for all of us! :)

@Matt
my hero, I tried to learn Russian a long time ago :D (I had a student who was Russian)

Dyvith

12-03-2012, 08:52 PM

I'll be piloting this in two weeks. The more I think about it, the more content I am with this setup.

24 Land Junk

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

SB:

2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress
1 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Abrupt Decay

godofallu

12-03-2012, 09:00 PM

So when is Sdematt's article coming out? I'm kind of assuming it will be mentioned and linked in this thread.

I still think Liliana is crazy good so I look forward to reading why she is bad and deathrite deserves 3-4 slots. I have played a ton with both cards now and am pretty certain I like my setup. Liliana + Lingering Souls is just too much card advantage.

sdematt

12-03-2012, 09:53 PM

I've just finished editing it for spelling errors, content, etc.

Since you guys are my peeps, I'll release a tiny bit to hold you over until later in the week when it gets released.

Article starts below this point.

------------

Junk is, by its very nature, a mid-range deck that has components of aggro and control. Junk’s game plan is to control board with an overwhelming amount of removal and to protect its threats pre-emptively using discard spells. Then, once the coast is clear, Junk drops big, efficient threats that tend to outclass the other creatures on the board, while still maintaining that element of board control. Junk isn’t like RUG in the sense that you hopefully ride one creature to victory. Junk usually likes to lay out a few larger threats and protect them without the use of counterspells. Junk isn’t playing to beat the opponent in the first four turns, and it isn’t looking to go into the very long game where the true control deck shines. Junk is most comfortable in the mid-game, where the early disruption leads to mid-game advantage by closing the life point gap with those efficient threats. But, a question still remains: why should one play Junk? What are some of the advantages of playing Junk in the current Legacy metagame?

The Abrupt Decay of “Only Blue can Win”

The answers to these questions lie in two recent additions to the Junk arsenal from Return to Ravnice: Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Junk has always had an issue of being a deck full of answers that wins when it gets the correct answer for the question being asked of it; if it didn’t, it died pretty quickly. You had little to no manipulation or card selection to work your way through your deck like Blue did with Brainstorm and Ponder. Abrupt Decay solves the former question by essentially being an answer to everything. Not only is it an answer, it is an answer that can’t be countered. Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, and Swords to Plowshares are all powerful cards, but running them headlong into Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Daze, Counterspell, or an active Counterbalance at a pivotal moment doesn’t help you one bit. Your answer might trump that Delver that’s been slowly eating away at your life total, but your attempts to turn it into a farmer may be lost if you don’t have the right tools in your kit. There’s a specific tool for every job, and Abrupt Decay turns out to be a really great all-in-one tool that never disappoints. Abrupt Decay, beyond being a limited Vindicate, is also uncounterable. This is a point in Junk’s favour regarding the RUG Delver matchup, as easily found counterspells can usually counter key removal plays at critical points in the game. Abrupt Decay is a solution to a problem as soon as you draw it.

Prior to Abrupt Decay, when playing against UWx Miracles, it could be easy to get locked out by Counterbalance due to a suite of converted mana costs centered around zero through two. Recently, with new additions to the deck, a new Counterbalance curve stretching from zero to five has been implemented. More importantly, the curve now has a nonzero amount of three drops (between four and six). This is important to locking out your Vindicates and Knights of the Reliquary. By smashing Counterbalance with Abrupt Decay, Junk is more able to lay out efficient threats that pose a real danger of ending the game in quick succession. There isn’t as much of a situation like with Maverick where all your small critters need to be present on the board in numbers to be a threat – which is where Miracles wants to be, especially with Terminus and Engineered Explosives. A single threat can end the game in four turns or less, making them either waste a Terminus or find removal or a threat to outclass you, like Entreat the Angels or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

To be continued...

--------

-Matt

Loxmatii

12-03-2012, 10:38 PM

thks everybody! it was very interesting for me to read your answers. i will think a lot and try to look to this deck from another angle

@Matt

Nice russian (= great pleasure to see here native letters!

прекрасный русский (= большое удовольствие видеть здесь родные буквы!

Dyvith

12-04-2012, 05:31 PM

Sughayyer

12-04-2012, 05:36 PM

Shaman. If left unchecked, it will allow a soft lock, if not, your opponent either had to force him (you are on the play) or spend his first turn with a removal spell (and you have bob, goyf, and other equally good cards that you'd like to stay).
Of course, if I knew my opponent was playing combo or something like that I'd play the discard first.

Esper3k

12-04-2012, 06:11 PM

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

Unless you're playing against some sort of super fast combo like Belcher or SI, you drop the Deathrite first. If you rip a fetch land or if your opponent uses a fetch, then you can play either Liliana or Knight on T2. Even if you don't drop one of those on T2, you're still open to Inquisition + AD on T2.

sdematt

12-04-2012, 07:16 PM

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

Are you on the play? On the draw? Any knowledge of your opponent's deck?

My thought are: This hand is a keep on both the play and the draw.

If you have NO idea what you're playing against:

Play: Swamp, Thoughtseize.
Draw: Swamp, Deathrite Shaman.

If you know what you're playing against, but it doesn't matter (Maverick, etc)

On the play or draw:
Swamp, Deathrite.

If Miracles or combo:

If on the play:
Swamp, Thoughtseize.

If on the draw:
Swamp, Thoughtseize or Shaman (really depends).

-Matt

ZeinVoncy

12-04-2012, 07:18 PM

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

Personally, I'd use Inquisition to see what I'm up against. I don't see a turn 2 Knight or Lilly unless you draw a fetch land. And putting a 3/3 Knight out so early is pseudo risky, hence I'd run with discard. Turn 2 would be decay or Shaman depending on what I draw and they play.

BTW Matt, I think Miracles, Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver need to be added to the matchup analysis, seeing as they are some of the most popular decks now. Also include Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay to the card choices.

sdematt

12-04-2012, 07:46 PM

Personally, I'd use Inquisition to see what I'm up against. I don't see a turn 2 Knight or Lilly unless you draw a fetch land. And putting a 3/3 Knight out so early is pseudo risky, hence I'd run with discard. Turn 2 would be decay or Shaman depending on what I draw and they play.

BTW Matt, I think Miracles, Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver need to be added to the matchup analysis, seeing as they are some of the most popular decks now. Also include Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay to the card choices.

That's definitely on my to-do list for when school's over :)

-Matt

Barbed Blightning

12-04-2012, 09:31 PM

I've been really torn by this question:

On the play, with this hand, what do you do?

Deathrite Shaman, Inquisition, Swamp, Forest, Liliana, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay

What do we do here? Turn 1 Deathrite into possible Turn 2 Knight or Liliana? or do we lead with a Turn 1 Inquisition? For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter if Inquisition is a Thoughtseise instead, and one of the basics can be a fetch - it is safe to assume a Deathrite activation on turn two.

So what do you do?

The discard spell, almost every time. Unless I knew what I was playing against, I prefer the information to the possible explosion of Lilly or kotr turn 2. I would also prefer dropping goyf/bob then anyway. Besdies there are few matches where t1 shaman is superior to t1 thoughtseize

sdematt

12-06-2012, 01:31 AM

http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-ell-2012-noviembre

3rd Place at Mana-Infinito, some Spanish dude took my list (almost) to the near top of the tournament! Congrats!

-Matt

Dyvith

12-06-2012, 12:51 PM

Matt, I'm a little twisted. I'm really curious about a lot of your card choices, because in testing, some of the cards you are advocating seemed so bad. I don't mean to call you out at all, but I'm wondering what you've been testing against, etc. Green Sun's doesn't seem like it has a home in this deck, nor Library. Can you share with me what your thought process is on each card? Specifically, when you want them and when you don't? Do you T1 Green Sun often or do you wait?

sdematt

12-06-2012, 01:20 PM

Much of this is explained in the article (which I'm hoping comes out tomorrow, but the person doing stuff on the site might be backlogged, so we'll see).

So let's break down Green Sun's Zenith. Now, I'll be honest, this is one of the newer additions to the deck and for the longest time, this deck did not have a consistency engine in it, and it worked fine without it. I agree 100% that this deck does not NEED Green Sun's to function, you're 100% right. This card, prior to Deathrite Shaman, was there for a few purposes.

1) "Virtually" having more copies of all your creatures. At the time, I was running 3 Goyf, 4 Knight, 4 Confidant, 2 Ooze, 1 Pridemage, 1 Tracker. Being able to search for more Knights, Goyfs, or the utility creatures had a real advantage in creature combat. Being able to have more Knights, or have "4" copies of Tracker was very good if you were needing to go into the combat step at some point and face resistance. What I'm trying to say is you increased your creature density by 3, but also did not dilute your threats. You do not need 4 Ooze, but 1-2 with tutorability is much more sound.

2) Acceleration. This is the worst reason to have the card, but I was already running Dryad Arbor when I ran 2 GSZ, so when I upped it to three, this improved the chances I would GSZ on 0 on Turn 1. This hasn't happened much as of late due to Deathrite Shaman, who is usually the turn 1 or turn 2 play.

GSZ belongs, in my opinion, because it acts as threat selection. Have three more removal or Planeswalkers would be fine as well. But, I like having the ability to play more Knights or certain utility creatures. I talk in the article about why Blue is so favoured in Legacy: card draw and card selection. Green Sun's Zenith acts as a piece of selection. It's not card advantage, since I'm trading a card for another card, but I am getting a card I'm looking for versus one I may not be at the time. My thoughts are that if you're adding card selection to a non-blue deck, you are increasing your odds of beating that blue deck, since your threats are better than theirs, you just need to find them.

Now, have their been situations where GSZ sat in my hand while I did other stuff? Sure, this has happened many times since we have so many answers, we can't play them all at the same time. But, GSZ has allowed me to fetch for Deathrite Shamans, Oozes, Trackers, Teegs, Goyfs, Knights, etc. at the right time when I needed them. I've been blown out by Spell Pierce before, but you can't play around everything.

Now let us break down Sylvan Library. First, I'd like to know WHY people do not think it does not fit into this deck. Now, the card says to draw extra cards and to put some back. Even if you NEVER draw extra cards, being able to manipulate and selection from a choice of three cards the card you will draw for the turn, that's better than what we have already. Again, we are a deck full of answers, the real conundrum is, do we have the right answer for the threat at hand? Sylvan Library helps this filtering process.

But, you can also draw extra cards. Where does this mean anything? In the RUG Matchup, you mostly use the look, but you usually do not take unless you have to. In Maverick, you gain advantage by seeing more removal or threats and you will draw some extra cards to get ahead on board, since they do not have any large sweepers you have to play around. In this match, you have some life to work with. Where this really shines, however, is the blue matchups, more specifically, more controlling matchups. You are attempting to keep up with Top, Brainstorm, and maybe Ponder. Digging down extra cards doesn't matter here since they have no clock. You can challenge Brainstorm by taking 8 and casting a "free" Ancestral Recall. Swords to Plowshares on most of your guys means you can draw an extra card off the life given to you, further digging into more threats or answers. Without it, you are in topdeck mode whereas they're finding their control bombs to destroy you.

If you're ever been in topdeck mode versus blue control, even with some hand left, you know this is a miserable experience. Being able to hang on in a control matchp is huge, or, you can get ahead and just roll over them with YOUR superior card advantage, instead of the other way around. Last night in a postboard game I played Sylvan Library and took 16 damage, but blew him out with hand disruption, Gaddock Teeg, Knight, Goyf, and Abrupt Decay. If I had not had that Sylvan, I may have been too slow to assemble that set of cards together to disrupt them sufficiently so I could win.

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Both of these cards add the element of card selection to the Junk deck. Drawing more threats that you want to see is a good thing being this deck. You can easily run without them, I just find the consistency from these cards to be very powerful.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning

12-07-2012, 01:04 AM

Fair enough. Even barring the argument of card selection and possible advantage, there is something to be said of preference. I could never, say, pick up a storm deck and pilot it fully enough since it is not my preferred style of play; even in this archetype, there are differences of taste. I've found myself content with a mostly quadlazer style, and I like the instant-speed effect of Top.

tl;dr, I really don't think there is a wrong way to build junk right now, so long as you include STP, Deathrite and Abrupt Decay. Even the SFM/Lingering Souls build discussed a page or so back is completely valid, imo; one not always needs to run Goyfs and Knight as they beaters.

I think this is a new era for the Rock. Might as well experiment with the variables to see what possible new interactions we can find.

sdematt

12-07-2012, 02:25 AM

I've been waiting hours for someone to post so I could post again.

Thanks.

-Matt

zalachan

12-07-2012, 08:26 AM

Well i haven't played legacy for months now, but (slightly offtopic) i'm playing Doran french EDH deck which is trying to be as junk as possible. All i can say, Library is amazing there.
I know that format has 30 lifepoints and there are no horribly fast aggro and combo decks there like in legacy.
Still a great feeling when you shuffle every other turn and pay life for more threats/disruption, only to troll your opponent who fails to Brainstorm/Jacestorm into answers or shufflers:laugh:

Dyvith

12-07-2012, 09:35 AM

What do we think about the 24th land? Is risk of flooding worth not being manascrewed?

AggroSteve

12-07-2012, 10:08 AM

if you are playing up to 4 deathrite shamans the 24th land will not be necessary IMO, but if you fear getting manascrewed and are not sure if the 24th land will get u flooded, why not using a man-land like treetop village, nantuko monastery or whatever you prefer. treetop village obviously comes with the downside of coming into play tapped but does not bother with the sice of your grave (if game 2 and 3 the opponent wants to use gravehate against your knights).
I for my part would still prefer nantuko monastery, simply because it is bigger and has firststrike which is more usefull than trample IMO

But out there are a lot of man-lands, or utility lands that could serve you better than these two.

sdematt

12-07-2012, 11:40 AM

I played the 24th land forever. I think if you cut Dryad Arbor and/or Maze and replace them with real lands, then 23 should still be fine. However, like I said, I ran the 24th land and was comfortable with it until I cut it for something a while back. With 23 lands and 8 draw effects, I already do see enough land MOST of the time, however, there's obviously times I have been manascrewed. With Deathrite Shaman, now less so.

-Matt

Dyvith

12-07-2012, 01:14 PM

My only losses at Baltimore were to mana screw. I think that if I had piloted the list I have now, I would have been more successful.

dballard

12-07-2012, 06:22 PM

godofallu

12-07-2012, 07:44 PM

The automatic "4" of ...

We see it all the time, auto 4 StP or Bob and now I'm seeing it a lot with Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. I know the thought is "it's a great card and you want to maximize your chances to draw it". I can't argue with that logic but I wanted to present an alternative and see what the community thinks.

I feel like we have so many manipulators to get the cards we need between GSZ, Bob, Top or Sylvan, as well as fetch lands to thin and shuffle, that it isn’t definitely necessary to play 4 of anything.

Generally speaking you’ll go maybe 30 cards into a game with most games ending far sooner, so do I really need that 4th Bob or Shaman buried deep in my deck? Or would more variety in the deck offer up more answers against your opponent and make you far less predicable? Especially creature wise where GSZ offers the ability to grab what is needed at any given time.

I could get into the math but I'll simply say that the difference in odds of getting a card played in 4 as opposed to 3 is 1 or 2% once we factor in the manipulators.
I’d argue that outside of KotR and Fetch lands, there is not another card that Junk should always play as a 4 of (ok maybe SotP).

Curious what you guys think?

I can get behind the stance of you don't NEED 4 of any card.

I also will go ahead and say that Abrupt Decay has been far more valuable to me than STP. I actually run 4 AD and 2 STP and 1 Maelstrom pulse. The ability to hit artifacts/enchantments is generally far more valuable than the extra mana. Plus when the creature hits the graveyard it becomes deathrite/Ooze fodder which helps me more than removal from game most of the time. If BG had any great 3 drop creatures white wouldn't even really be necessary.

Consider Goblins the most quoted reason for why 1cc removal is needed. STP can stop the lackey, but AD can stop the vial.

My only problem is I can't decide between Rock, Bant, or Bug. All 3 are very similar and quite fun. Plus I am having stupid amounts of success with all 3 now.

PS: What site is Matt's article going to be on again? I look forward to reading it.

dballard

12-07-2012, 08:27 PM

Eternal Central I think it was, assuming he'll link us up once the article is posted. Looking forward to that read as well.