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lavafrogg
12-07-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm kind of upset that I heard to day that BUG is the only reason to play Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in legacy....WE found them FIRST! I hate blue and their stupid cantrips...

sdematt
12-08-2012, 12:40 AM
Automatic 4-of is greatly overused, but Abrupt Decay is VERY good, for sure. I always like seeing it, that's for certain.

I haven't gotten an email back form the Eternal Central Editor yet, so it might still be a couple of days :mad: boo.


-Matt

ZeinVoncy
12-08-2012, 10:01 AM
I haven't gotten an email back form the Eternal Central Editor yet, so it might still be a couple of days :mad: boo.


-Matt

Another reason I stopped reading Eternal Central, they update so rarely. A reason, I think, that they sell their articles.

sdematt
12-08-2012, 12:12 PM
Another reason I stopped reading Eternal Central, they update so rarely. A reason, I think, that they sell their articles.

Ideally, I'm going to be an at least once a month article, but hopefully, I'll attempt to release on Carsten Kotter's off weeks so we actually have good Legacy articles once a week.

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-08-2012, 08:18 PM
I have upped my Garruk count to 1 main 2 side since the rise of miracles but the new BUG variants are annoying at the moment. anyone have ideas for the psuedo mirror?

sdematt
12-08-2012, 09:38 PM
In the Junk mirror (which you never want to play), whoever has more removal or draw power wins. I would side side out discard if you need to (I sided in Hymns, and it was a big mistake unless you can actually go Tempo).

Bring in Deeds to take out Shamans and Goyfs, and possibly bring in Teeg to turn off their Garruk and GSZ. Otherwise, luck and playskill.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-08-2012, 11:09 PM
Hey all, just took down Mythic Games in Elmira, NY, with a 1st place finish. Played five rounds, squeaking into 8th place after the swiss and pummeled my way through Top 8.

List is pretty similar to what I ran at Baltimore, but has some minor changes:

Main

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

SB
2 Choke
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Extirpate
1 Thalia
1 Duress
1 Garruk Relentless

Matches (never took notes, so this will be brief)

Round 1: D&T, 2-1

Played against my buddy Zane. His first time against Junk, and I barely pulled the third game off, but Mr. Goyf was pretty big. Engineered Plague is pretty ok against them.

Round 2: Fish, 1-2

Triple Decay and Knight + Goyf steal me game one against Chad. He crushes me game two and game three I kept a stupidly greedy hand.

Round 3: Maverick, 1-1-1

All I remember is waiting five minutes once for him to decide to pass a turn. I managed to play Lilly and alpha strike, after hovering at 3 life for 6 turns, kept alive by Deathrite. I didn't call him out on slow play, since game one took us to 7 minutes to go. He gets me jilted by his poor play and indecisiveness, and I keep a bad hand game two. Game three went to turns.

Round 4: BGw NicFit (Academy Rector/Yosei), 2-1

Played against my buddy Steve. Another super fun round, but Liliana totally backhands NicFit.

Round 5: MiracleBlade, 2-1

Kind of hazy, but I remember topdecking a Lilly game two, at 3 life with a 5/6 goyf in play. He was at five, had a 4/4 token and JTMS. She makes him sacrifice, I breakthrough for lethal. Game three I seized his batterskull, extirpated his STP and played Gaddock Teeg. He had no other removal, nor a wincon under 4 cmc. :cool:

TOP 8

Semifinals: Chris, with RUG Delver, 2-0

Quick games. I didn't realize we had such a positive matchup against this deck. He gets me to 9 with mongeese, and I play Goyf and knight, agressively wasting him. Game two, I keep Bob, Inquisition and 4 lands because I was afraid to mull. I topdeck into Goyf and Lilly. I love that loyalty counters are added as a cost, thus negating the Lightning bolt in his hand.

Quarterfinals: Michael (a.k.a., Hollywood) with Manaless Ichorid, 2-1

Not much to say. Drew into bojuka bog like a pimp games one and two, had it in my opening seven game three like a pro. Extirpated Ichorid game three with an active Shaman to earn the concession, somehow got there game two in a similar fashion. Deathrite is the shit.

Finals: Chad, with Fish, 2-1

So we meet again! I won't get caught with my pants down this time. Game two he managed to beat me down fast, but the combination of Deathrite pings and Goyf beats exhaust all of his creatures game three.



We split the prize at the quarterfinal level, which I'm cool with. Loving the deck so far, I would change very little about it. I only wish I could fit in a basic plains, but alas there is no room.

In the sideboard, however, I want to cut Deeds for something else. Suggestions? I'm leaning towards Hymns currently.


Keep Junking!

godofallu
12-09-2012, 12:35 AM
So what's the opinion on Vindicate vs Maelstrom pulse? I see different people running different cards.

As to beating other midranged decks has anyone tried Phyrexian Arena? I ran it maindeck for a while and had to cut it after combo started popping up a ton, but there wasn't a card I wanted more against Jund, BUG, Rock ect. Once you start drawing twice the number of cards as them you basically will win eventually. Especially with Liliana's in your deck.

I also like Lingering Souls a lot in some matchups. The person who won SCG Baltimore with Esperblade won basically every match off of that card, and it was absolutely brutal against the BUG meta. It also combos very well with Liliana.

I guess what i'm trying to say is if you want to evolve to beat the mirror/midranged decks you can swap some stuff around to strengthen that matchup. Look for Dread of Night to start popping into peoples sideboard though because I have been seeing a lot of Spirits.

PS: My current List. It isn't perfect probably but it seems to be pretty well rounded and effective. http://deckstats.net/deck-1718964-55dfe16d870e4000a935e1a7e44ec07f.html

sdematt
12-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Congrats on the finish! Way to represent, champ.


If Lingering Souls comes back as a way to muck Terminus, then the smart Miracles players will just start running Engineered Plagues, since that's what I would be doing.

E. Plagues, come to think of it, actually seemed well positioned both for us and as a Miracles player. It mucks Goblins and Merfolk, your somewhat meh matchups, and kills the Soul tokens forever against Esperblade. For us, it's the same deal. Deed does more work against Maverick, but E. Plague could also be VERY good.

If we were to run (using my board as an example):

3 Hymn
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

This could obviously be modified depending on your meta, but Deeds (which could be EE or whatever) and E. Plagues against our Tribal matchups, along with Swords and Decay, is pretty bad for them. E. Plague against Elves mucks MOST of their board, and we can keep them off Lords. E. Plagues is pretty good against Goblins, and again, we can do the same thing of keeping Lords. Against Merfolk, A Plague negates a single Lord, which is better than nothing. Deed can do CMC <3 cleanup.

Against Esperblade, we could bring in the Plagues for the Souls tokens, or name Wizard/Soldier (meaning Snapcaster and Clique are worse) as an incidental piece of awesome, since Deeds don't really come in for this match.

The rest of the matchups where Plague would be good are more situational. I guess we could compare this with our other possible cards like Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm. I do like the mode options on Charm, but the non-continuity of its effects make it worse at any one of those modes. Golgari will still muck some Spirit tokens, but will not keep them away forever, but Charm does have fringe benefits against Supreme Verdict out of Esperblade and against Omnitell.

Charm and E. Plague however seems like a freaking rape train against Tribal/tokens, but it might be a bit of overkill. Remember Deed also has nice benefits against MUD, Affinity, and random garbage people show up with at tournaments.

-Matt

KobeBryan
12-09-2012, 02:36 AM
Congrats on the finish! Way to represent, champ.


If Lingering Souls comes back as a way to muck Terminus, then the smart Miracles players will just start running Engineered Plagues, since that's what I would be doing.

E. Plagues, come to think of it, actually seemed well positioned both for us and as a Miracles player. It mucks Goblins and Merfolk, your somewhat meh matchups, and kills the Soul tokens forever against Esperblade. For us, it's the same deal. Deed does more work against Maverick, but E. Plague could also be VERY good.

If we were to run (using my board as an example):

3 Hymn
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

This could obviously be modified depending on your meta, but Deeds (which could be EE or whatever) and E. Plagues against our Tribal matchups, along with Swords and Decay, is pretty bad for them. E. Plague against Elves mucks MOST of their board, and we can keep them off Lords. E. Plagues is pretty good against Goblins, and again, we can do the same thing of keeping Lords. Against Merfolk, A Plague negates a single Lord, which is better than nothing. Deed can do CMC <3 cleanup.

Against Esperblade, we could bring in the Plagues for the Souls tokens, or name Wizard/Soldier (meaning Snapcaster and Clique are worse) as an incidental piece of awesome, since Deeds don't really come in for this match.

The rest of the matchups where Plague would be good are more situational. I guess we could compare this with our other possible cards like Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm. I do like the mode options on Charm, but the non-continuity of its effects make it worse at any one of those modes. Golgari will still muck some Spirit tokens, but will not keep them away forever, but Charm does have fringe benefits against Supreme Verdict out of Esperblade and against Omnitell.

Charm and E. Plague however seems like a freaking rape train against Tribal/tokens, but it might be a bit of overkill. Remember Deed also has nice benefits against MUD, Affinity, and random garbage people show up with at tournaments.

-Matt

But who really plays MUD, Affinity in a tournament. You would probably run into one of these decks every 50 games.

sdematt
12-09-2012, 03:19 AM
But who really plays MUD, Affinity in a tournament. You would probably run into one of these decks every 50 games.

It still has relevancy against the field. If you go to any major tournament you'll still run into random decks. I went through SCG Seattle facing a different deck in every round, whether or not the deck was "well-positioned" or not.


-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-09-2012, 12:00 PM
That's fair. I mean, Deed on zero kills many decks (or at least slows them). Is E.E. an acceptable replacement? I was thinking of adding a Bog/Ooze and an E.E. in place of the two deeds in my SB.

lambert101
12-09-2012, 12:15 PM
New to Rock/Junk Decks
This is my stab at a list and side...still don't know exactly how to side

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Windswept Heath

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares


Side Board:
3 Hymn
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extripate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog

I really like teeg against miracles

sdematt
12-09-2012, 01:09 PM
New to Rock/Junk Decks
This is my stab at a list and side...still don't know exactly how to side

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Windswept Heath

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares


Side Board:
3 Hymn
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extripate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog

I really like teeg against miracles

Teeg flat-out wins games against Miracles. I'm also considering going up to 3, but we'll see. I think if you're not running GSZ, you should be running 3 of them in the board.

As for EE replacing Deed, it depends what you're replacing it for. Tokens? Then EE is fine. Semi-general sweep? Probably not bad as well.

I'm also considering Virtue's Ruin to possibly be overkill, since it's really only coming in against Maverick and Death and Taxes, and adding in the extra Teeg would not be bad. I'm curious to see if there will be any major metagame shifts before Denver.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-09-2012, 01:55 PM
I basically want E.E. for token sweep. I also like how I can adjust it so that I can kill all of Merfolk's Lords, while keeping my Deathrites untouched.

I think Golgari Charm + E Plague is good enough against D&T. The deck is super soft to -1/-1 effects, and white has very few ways of dealing with them.

Sughayyer
12-09-2012, 02:17 PM
It may seem out of the blue what I'm going to say, but we reached in a consensus in that discussion a few pages ago - a "default" junk build. Now we're running pretty much the same cards aside a few sb and meta choices.
Just a few remarks: agains bug, I like lingering souls (running 2 on side, probably going to 3 depending on the meta) because it overrides 3 bug's control attempts (liliana, jace and decay) - of course after they bring deed and use shaman to exile ls it gets harder, but it still helps us a lot

damionblackgear
12-09-2012, 03:30 PM
So what's the opinion on Vindicate vs Maelstrom pulse? I see different people running different cards.

I haven't been playing much magic recently (been about 2-3 months since my last game and I don't think I'll get many in before Denver) so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Pulse was good at doing what Vindicate did (excluding lands). As the deck started to cut down on the Goyf count, and the chances of running into your other permanents was low (outside of Bant, Goyf was the only shared creature). It was more rare to destroy a land than an opportunity to 2;1 your opponent (had it been a Pulse). Pulse was a "makes sense" alternative/upgrade at the time.

I think that with the printing of Abrupt Decay, (and its success from people not wanting to adapt) it may be a good idea to think about the switch back (especially lists with multiple Goyf). A little extra potential LD in the deck wouldn't be a bad thing, rare as it may be.

More of our permanents are being used all over the place (Maverick: Knight, Library, Goyf, Ooze | BUG - Goyf, Shaman, Liliana, Library) which would require more touch (Abrupt Decay) than power (Pulse) to deal with at true profit. Also, players are starting to show that they're getting smarter - I've been watching, just not playing. Anywho, like a said, "a grain of salt" - by playing/fetching basics at correct times. That previous lack of format "rules" knowledge being gone means that we do need things to answer basic questions (which those questions are sometimes X-number of basic lands). It's rare, but I feel that now it's been becoming less rare than the 2;1 pulse.

tl;dr - Chance to echo is starting to get lower than the chance to hit your own as well. Switching back to Vindicate is starting to look better.

lavafrogg
12-09-2012, 07:57 PM
Koby/rukus/jocob kory is awesome. He has locked top 8 and brought the casters cupcakes... this has nothing to do with the rock, just good magic.

People are talking about Deathrite Shaman like it is new?

sdematt
12-09-2012, 08:31 PM
Generally, people are slow.


@ Pulse vs. Vindicate:

The only issue I'm having is Entreat the Angels and Storm tokens aren't by any virtue rare in my meta. I like the out of, well, having an out to multiple creatures/tokens, but I agree that now there is an increasing possibility of mucking our own stuff. Matchups where this MAY occur:

BUG (Goyf mainly, unlikely we'll use Pulse on a Deathrite)
Junk Mirror (could be anything)
Maverick (Knight)

Other than that, there wouldn't be much collateral damage. I'll start doing some BUG Testing, as well as trying the non-GSZ version of the deck to see what I think. I'm pretty set on playing this at Denver.

@ Damion

Are you going to Denver?

-Matt

zalachan
12-10-2012, 04:06 AM
Yesterday i played with Matt's list (more or less) and reached 2-0-2, which was enough for 3rd place (we had some time and place constraints so we finished off sooner than expected).
I played against:
Maverick 2-1
RUG 1-1
UG Eldrazi Post 1-1
Reveilark combo 2-0

All in all it was pretty fun. The amount of draws was pretty high cause we had 50 min rounds and the additional 5 minutes would have helped in a lot of games.

What's the game plan against Eldrazis? I had to resort to beatdown, but i had only the lesser critters available (shaman, garruk tokens) and he gained somewhere around 30 life during one game. Postboard i guess you can Wasteland and Extract Cloudposts, but the matchup still feels atrocious to say the least.

damionblackgear
12-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Matt, I'll be in Denver. I got my ticket a couple month's back to visit a buddy, then they announced. He plays as well so we figured we'd hit it up.

zalachan - Destroy their hand as fast as possible. In order you should be going for (turns 1-3) Ramp/"Land Tutor" spells, cantrips, Candelabra, everything else. Don't worry about counters.

Counter's will happen but they're not meant to protect in that deck. They're a stall tactic. If they're spending their time trying to stall you instead of advancing their board, you're in the win there. That being said, if you can pay for a pierce on a Thoghtseize, you'll typically want to do it. After that, Anything's pretty much game.

Let Decay deal with Candelabra since it has no real other applications in the match. You have control with Relic, use it to keep the graveyard flush and force them to pop it, don't waste the Decay. Also, it cantrips... place it in that category. Don't worry about Goyf's size, It'll be big soon enough.

That should give you time to get a knight and catch up on nuking the Locus lands. Just remember, only Cloudposts and Vesuva Matter in the early game. Mid-Late, Primeval Titan makes an appearance so double green is also a hindrance.

If you do manage to take out the Cloudpost with an Extraction, your next target shouldn't be Candelabra. It's only good when they can produce more than 1 mana with any land (or they already have enough to be an issue for you). Your next target should probably be Tropical Island or Primeval Titan. Titan is the plan be to the ramp so keep that in mind. They've only got a couple Eldrazi and without Titan they can't actually force them down. If you can, try to outclass it. Force a block from the Titan since players with more experience will have a backup plan to all of this and you'll want the potential out for that.

As an overall rule: If you're not afraid of a counter, Extract during their draw step to potentially steal the turn from them.
That's one thing a lot of us miss while playing (you'll never see the game better than a spectator). You can use Extraction as forced discard at times. It's not likely, but why not take the chance if you've got the opportunity?

The deck is a mana beast. Take that out and they should be useless. Just remember not to dilute yourself too much. You can't win if you don't have a creature so fit one in asap (provided you're not still disrupting them). You only need one (Goyf/Knight) and can rebuild it quickly enough post relic. Don't play into the Wrath you don't have to.

Rummelboxer
12-10-2012, 08:47 AM
Hi!
sdmatt, i played your list at our local 57 men tounament.
It was very nice to play and i went 3-1-2 because of
some misplays i made.
My MUs were:
Maverik 2:0
BUG-control 0:2 (against a friend of mine, this match was a real misplay-party on both sides)
Dnt with blue 0:2 (the geist was a real problem in both games)
Burn 2:0 (Discard & Goyfbeatdown!)
Esper-control 2:0 (Garruk was awsome)
Hulk-Combo 1:1:1 (First game i had no idea what happens to me :-D)

Thx for this list!

Claymore
12-10-2012, 09:25 AM
I also took nearly Matt's list, except I merged it with Barbed Lightning's list to get 3 Liliana in and played 4 Wastelands. I went 3-1-ID for top 8 in a GPT field of 21, and then made it to top 4 and lost to horrible, horrible mulligans game 3.

Dropped Garruk, 1 SDT, 1 GSZ, Dryad Arbor, 1 Plains to add 3 Lili, 1 Waste, 1 Bojuka Bog.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Engineered Plague
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Virtue's Ruin

1-2 Infect
2-1 Bant with exact lethal game 3 turn 5
2-0 white weenie
2-1 BUW Stoneblade
ID
2-1 Infect
1-2 Burn

I lost game 3 because I had to mull 1 land Maze of Ith hands into a 5 card, 1 wasteland hand with Shaman, Swords, GSZ, and something else. Probably should've kept those? Drew a top to almost pull it out despite bricking for like 3 turns on looking for lands but he got me for lethal right when I was turning the corner. Never saw my Timely Reinforcements and Shaman was never alive long enough to get me life. Would've faced a glass cannon Cheerios deck in the finals that I think I could've easily taken down with early discard.

The deck played amazing, Liliana was great since the deck can easily dump its hand before using her and she's a great utility card versus nearly everything in the field. The deck can roll with 3 lands, so ditching your extra lands to her is not a big issue, not to mention an early Bob gives you extra chaff to discard. This is much different than other control decks I've tried to play her in which need to be designed around her discard.

Hymns from the board against Infect, Bant, and Stoneblade were nearly the sole reason why I won many games and almost pulled out game 2 vs burn. Turn 1 disruption, turn two Hymn completely took them out of contention especially when followed up by a clock. Might have to bump it to 4.

I felt I had a good spread of permanent removal with 3 AD, 2 Maelstrom. Maelstroms were crucial for taking down swarms of Souls tokens and Jace, while AD was of course good for taking down fast movers. I think a 4/1 split limits you to fighting the aggro plan where your creatures and 4 STP can handle some of that load, so having 2 Pulses lets you combat Jace and general swarms better.

I only ever once fetched Ooze and that was in a burn game I lost, where he hit me with exact lethal in response to Ooze trying to eat the graveyard. I still think I'd play it just because of its utility, but might toss it in the sideboard. Thoughts?

Not so sure about the Engineered Plague in the side. Granted, I didn't play against tribal, but it loses effectiveness when playing it for Humans (goodbye Bob, Tracker) and I didn't feel comfortable playing it solely for Lingering Souls against Stoneblade. It also isn't fetchable via GSZ, so maybe a utility creature in this slot?

Sylvan was the shit. God damn.

sdematt
12-10-2012, 07:14 PM
Good to see you guys are having success with the list. I'm contemplating cutting a GSZ for a Decay, but we'll see.

Ooze is good for the matchups you want it in, and is much better as a dedicated graveyard hate slot. If you're facing opposing Knights or Mongeese, then you're going to want Ooze more, but in other cases, you don't. I just like having that guy around.

E. Plague does suck if you do have to name Humans, though.

The Timely Reinforcements are definitely my loose slots as well. I just feel like I'm not sure I need this unless I'm playing dedicated Burn or UR Delver, but those are the matchups we suck against :P If BUG is a big deal, this could also be Compost.

I'm also thinking Nourish could also work in that slot, being one less mana (and therefore less susceptible to Pierce and Daze, and without the condition of having LESS life than an opponent, etc.

If Storm starts becoming a real deal, or even High Tide or its ilk, Ichneumon Druid, although slow, is a real card against Instant-based combo that can be fetched with GSZ.

-Matt

Claymore
12-10-2012, 07:27 PM
I only faced Knight once, but I felt I had it under control relatively well with an active Shaman, and if you play Bojuka there's always that option. Always good to have Ooze around regardless, I agree.

I think Timely Reinforcements is good enough. My only alternative would be Spike Feeder or Kitchen Finks since they can be grabbed with GSZ (which would've saved me actually...), so in effect you focus on running a tutor board. I'd be hesitant to run Nourish because of the GG if you're focused on fetching basic lands to combat Price, but the lower cost is enticing. I generally like the double edged effect to gum up the ground, but will have to test each for effectiveness. I don't really see the 'less life' clause being an issue in those matchups.

sdematt
12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
I agree, the GG does worry me in the Burn matchup specifically, but I'm also counting on DRS to help out. The life clause is not super relevant in Burn, and probably not in RUG Delver either, but you never know. Instant speed is also pretty great.

-Matt

somethingdotdotdot
12-10-2012, 08:05 PM
If you want straight up life gain, i think rest for the weary might be more useful. It's not that hard to get landfall and it gains 8 life while only costing 1W.

Sughayyer
12-10-2012, 10:33 PM
When burn was rampant in my meta, I ran rest for the weary. 8 life is quite a breather, and we can accomplish the landfall easily (8 fetches + reliquary). It helped me a lot.

slikwilly
12-11-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm pretty sure you need blue ;)

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3385

sdematt
12-11-2012, 05:43 PM
I'm pretty sure you need blue ;)

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3385

Gotta love how I don't get an email about this until AFTER it's posted.

Enjoy the read all, and tell me what you think.

http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3385

-Matt

Kyle
12-11-2012, 10:04 PM
Matt, I see Sylvan Library jumping $10-$15 over the next month because of that article.

You not only are a great Magic player and deck builder, but are very well-spoken. Great article - I love the inclusion of Dryad Arbor tech (such as making him fight Garruk). Awesome.

lavafrogg
12-11-2012, 10:28 PM
Yay Matt! Love the article and will post there after this.

Topic for discussion: How happy have you guys been with wasteland lately? I have been testing the replacement of wastelands for a better mana base and 1 dust bowl to ensure we can mess with peoples mana.

godofallu
12-12-2012, 12:26 AM
Things I have noted between Matt's list and mine.

-1 Plains +1 Horizon Canopy -1 Thoughtseize +1 Maze of ith

I love basics and will admit to being an advocate to more basics in the past. The problem is that I run Liliana and Abrupt Decay which makes a mono white land really bad. I run Karakas over a basic plains and have mulled too often from having mono white sources to risk 2 mono white lands. Horizon canopy is nice since it helps to prevent flooding, makes both colors, and can be used as a neat trick with KOTR. The thing is if you play a plains you just are asking them to wasteland the Bayou instead.

Is maze of Ith greater than a real removal spell? I never considered it until this article, it's just one of those lands everyone runs with KOTR. Makes me question Karakas now too.

I run a token package (Lingering souls, Jitte, Bitterblossum) and I find it is very similar to Garruk. Super awesome against aggro and control, junk against combo. I am unsure if the 1 tarmagoyf, 1 KOTR, 1 Garruk, 1 Swords, 1 GSZ I cut is worth the package. The liliana's come in at the expense of top by the way; which I found to be too mana hungry for my tastes. On the swap I will say that neither strategy (Extra beaters vs Equipment and tokens) is all that good against combo, but the equipment and tokens are probably better against control and midranged decks that use a lot of single target removal.

This is just me thinking aloud, but if my thoughts interest or help anyone cool.

sdematt
12-12-2012, 12:55 AM
Maze of Ith does make a nice cut against those Combo decks, though. I'm most likely going to keep the basics Plains, at least if my build stays relatively the same.

I'll probably end up trying Lilianas against just to make sure, but I doubt this will happen.

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-12-2012, 01:32 AM
In the words of the SCG Vegas casters "Lilliana loops spell game over", I have never lost a game when she got to ultimate. Losing half of your shit keeps decks from out playing us in the late game and her +1 -2 cycle is deadly for aggro decks.

godofallu
12-12-2012, 02:33 AM
Played a 5 game match with my list against Matt's solitaire style. Knowing both hands makes it slightly hard to play honest, but almost every game had discard spells flying around to help and I tired to keep it as honest as possible.

My list lost 2-3. With 3 of the games taking over 20 minutes. Not that the record means anything.

I won both games by getting a Jitte active early. Lost 1 due to AD catching the Jitte on equip and a Mpulse topdeck wiping my spirits for a great reversal.
Other 2 game losses went to super long topdeck wars. The addition of the tops + extra library won one of those games, the other a Bob was drawn on his side where I drew a Deathrite. Stalled a while before getting buried in card advantage. Could have been the other way around.

I did notice that the basic land gameplan works very well with his deck, and I stuck to that for pretty much every game with no problems with color screw. In comparison my first game I got cut off of white (didn't matter since I had alternative plays and won).

Tarmogoyf was always huge and frequently outclassed KOTR's.

I mulled once due to Maze and never once had maze in play or tutored for it. I will replace it.

.:saturno:.
12-12-2012, 03:35 AM
@matt: i dont understand why u play 2 top and 2 library, i think 3 top are better at all.

xifre
12-12-2012, 07:26 AM
@matt: i dont understand why u play 2 top and 2 library, i think 3 top are better at all.

I think sylvan library is as equally as important as top in a junk list. Given the fact that junk decks don' t have the card drawing of blue, sylvan library becomes their extra draw when needed and when your life total is still high. I love the feeling of manipulating your draw phase to suit your needs.

As to top, it is there just in case you need some manipulation during your opponent' s turn.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks!

Dyvith
12-12-2012, 07:46 AM
I am also on the top bandwagon, but I think the question comes down to how comfortable you are paying 4+ life to draw cards and how comfortable you are being vulnerable to Pierce, Dase, Force, Snare, Decay, etc - not that Top isn't uncounterable, but against control decks, they always have a land in play when you attempt to resolve Sylvan - the same can't be said about Top. (The exception is when you go turn one deathrite, waste them on turn two, and then resolve library - that's pretty backbreaking.)

BlackStarDeceiver
12-12-2012, 09:24 AM
T1 Inquisition/Thoughtseize
T2 Sylvan

That usually does the trick.

Sylvan is one of the most powerful CA/CQ engines availible, it's that good that i even squeeze it in BUG decks, splashed green in Blade.
It was by far the best card in NO RUG at the time and has always been amazing in Maverick.

The card is seriously underrated. Whenever i am playing blue, it gets a giant target on it's head and i have lost far more games than i won where i wasn't able to get rid of Library within two turns.

sdematt
12-12-2012, 01:52 PM
I think sylvan library is as equally as important as top in a junk list. Given the fact that junk decks don' t have the card drawing of blue, sylvan library becomes their extra draw when needed and when your life total is still high. I love the feeling of manipulating your draw phase to suit your needs.

As to top, it is there just in case you need some manipulation during your opponent' s turn.

This. Drawing extra cards and not just manipulation, is a big deal. I challenge a deck with Sylvan online versus a Top online in a Junk mirror and see who will win.

@ Goyf vs. Knight

I've noticed Knight does definitely get outclassed, especially in Deathrite mirrors, whereas Tarmogoyf stays usually in the 3/4 to 5/6 range. This isn't a problem, since once you kill Deathrite you just repump your Knights, but it's something to keep track of. Also, Shaman wars are amazing.

"Remove that!"
"In response, remove it instead."
"Damn!"

@ Part 2 of the article

Part 2 should be coming out before Christmas, or between Christmas and New Year's before GP Denver, hopefully with sideboarding hints, tips, tricks, etc. and what you should or should not be playing as not only a Junk player, but as Miracles and Maverick. I have no problem pushing decks that we can win against.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-12-2012, 02:24 PM
This. Drawing extra cards and not just manipulation, is a big deal. I challenge a deck with Sylvan online versus a Top online in a Junk mirror and see who will win.

In all fairness, though, Top has the advantage of being able to dodge removal, and not just abrupt decay--Deed, E.E., non-krosan grip artifact hate, etc.--which is something Library cannot do. The ability to dig is great, granted, but Library definitely has its faults as well. Then again, my list plays more tempo-y than others, almost like a more resilient Tempo Thresh.

Great article, and though I disagree with the zero-lilly plan, I understand the logic. Can't wait for part two.

Esper3k
12-12-2012, 03:25 PM
Just curious, but how come people aren't playing Choke anymore? Do you feel that the UW Miracles matchup is good enough without it?

In my experience, that matchup is still pretty rough, especially when they do things like Terminus (on your turn) into Jace. Hand disruption is also not as great against them since Top allows them to hide their goodies from us.

godofallu
12-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Played a couple more mirror matches this morning against my roommate.

The first 3 games were won by an early sylvan library pulling the one deck ahead. It really is great and I was absolutely wrong to be playing only 1.

Lingering souls got blown out with Mpulse multiple times and requires you to run equipment to make it good. In total I would have preferred a Tarmogoyf 6/7 times to it. I am going to remove these and Jitte. They aren't worth the room, even with the cute trick with Liliana.

I upped the Liliana count to 4 trying to get her often so I could analyze her but in 6 game I still only played her 2 times. The first time she killed a Deathrite then died. The second she was played mid topdeck war and kept growing with no real effect. Eventually she did kill a topdecked creature with plenty of loyalty to spare for more, but it was never needed.

Top was quite bad for me the two games I had it. Both games I was on 3 lands and the choice between activating DS or using top usually went to shaman.

I think Lingering Souls, Ith, Jitte are all easy cuts. Second Library is a must and Liliana needs more testing.

Kyle
12-12-2012, 04:34 PM
I think Liliana works best in blue decks and/or decks running Life from the Loam. I love her so very much, but unless you're running LftL in Junk/Rock, she's making you pitch your trumps. Landing her Turn 2 or Turn 3 is nifty and all, but there's too much card parity at that point.

dballard
12-12-2012, 05:32 PM
Top was quite bad for me the two games I had it. Both games I was on 3 lands and the choice between activating DS or using top usually went to shaman.



This.

Depending on what you're playing against, the mana isn't always there for Top. I find Library preferable in almost every instance.

RPrajzner
12-12-2012, 05:39 PM
Lilliana isn't the best card in most matchups but her versatility as a discard engine against combo/control and a removal spell verse aggro is amazing. She can also randomly just win games.

sdematt
12-12-2012, 06:05 PM
Just curious, but how come people aren't playing Choke anymore? Do you feel that the UW Miracles matchup is good enough without it?

Unless you catch them in tap-out mode, Choke often ends up being subpar for a few reasons.

1) The deck can still with with Jace on board and a Choke.
2) Tapping out for a Jace through a Choke is still good for them.
3) They run Plains that allow them to Top while saving their Islands for ballbusting plays.

Choke doesn't do enough because they can save their mana for Entreat the Angels, or run with Karakas and Plains as much as possible. It just doesn't do enough unless you're heavy on other tax effects.

-Matt

yutang
12-12-2012, 06:12 PM
Hi Rock players,

I'm thinking about switching my Deadguy deck over to the Rock. This is my first draft based upon a few lists seen in this thread. I'm currently on 61 cards and I want to cut down to 60 cards (I'm a believer of the 60 card philosophy). At the moment, -1 SDT seems most logical. What are your thoughts? I play in a very blue meta.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sb:
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Relentless

Edit: Changed decklist

sdematt
12-12-2012, 06:17 PM
I'd personally cut a Liliana and retool the sideboard, but you do have 5 more slots in the main (without cutting Liliana), I hope you realize. I think you forgot 3/4 Thoughtseizes and 2/1 Inquisition of Kozilek.

I don't think you need Charm AND Plague, but your call.

-Matt

dballard
12-12-2012, 06:58 PM
Anyone tried out Selesnya Charm? I'm thinking maybe boarding it for mirror matches to make our boys bigger or more help to remove their big boys? Any opinions? Just seems like good utility all around - but not sure what I'd take out for it.

Kich867
12-12-2012, 07:04 PM
So, I'm finally into my career (software engineer woo!) and decided to start moving myself into a big boy deck. The list isn't complete for sure yet, but I have an idea of where I'm going with it. A friend told me that I'd love this deck (I love everything G/B really, but this in particular) and he certainly wasn't wrong. The way my mind thinks about magic and the way this archetype plays is very in sync and I've been having a blast, anyways...on to the list:

// Creatures: 12
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman

// Spells: 19
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
3x Lingering Souls
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay

// Planeswalkers: 1
1x Garruk Relentless

// Artifacts: 4
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sensei's Divining Top

// Enchantments: 2
2x Sylvan Library

// Lands: 23
2x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Wasteland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Forest


Right now, there's some budgetary constraints (don't have Savannahs, karakas, or the last bob yet, have everything else) but otherwise I'm loving this list to death. I feel like every game is dramatically different, Lingering Souls carries a lot of weight. I mainly came here to inquire about sideboarding options. Off the top of my head I was thinking something like this:

3x Surgical Extraction
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Hymn to Tourach
...? 3 more things.

AggroSteve
12-12-2012, 07:16 PM
i am actually using top..... i could bite my ass for selling my librarys, but i needed the money and top seemed to be better for the list i used to run, but now that i switched to deathrite shaman i would love to get them back, because against slow-rolling decks it is just what you want, the cardadvantage is just awesome

hopefully i will get my hands on some copies again

yutang
12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
sdematt - I'll try cutting a Liliana and see how it goes. I also forgot 4/2 of Thoughtseize and Inquisition.

Another question is whether Top should be run in conjunction with Library and if so, what should be the split? 2/2 or 3/1 Library Top?

sdematt
12-12-2012, 07:40 PM
sdematt - I'll try cutting a Liliana and see how it goes. I also forgot 4/2 of Thoughtseize and Inquisition.

Another question is whether Top should be run in conjunction with Library and if so, what should be the split? 2/2 or 3/1 Library Top?

I've also been toying with 3 Libraries, but they do NOTHING in multiples, so I'm going to go with 2/2 for now. You could try one as a "Top/Library", and when you draw it, record when you want it to be a Library, and when you want it to be a Top and take it from there.

@ Aggrosteve

Is it just you can't find the Sylvan Libraries, or you don't have the money? Let me know either way.

-Matt

AggroSteve
12-13-2012, 03:33 AM
i sold my two librarys about 2 months ago, needed the money..... sucks to be a "poor student" when you want to play legacy :D (i do not like the other formats :P)

right now i got a little spare money but i think i should put it aside so i can buy some real duals soon, which should be my priority :P

this was another reason for me not using librarys, as the lifeloss was allready quite high due to shockland + fetch + thoughtseize

Amazing Larry
12-13-2012, 10:50 AM
Hi, I'm new to this site, but a long-time player. I'm very interested in the newer developments for this deck. Last spring/summer I was running a Junk build that was mainly the stock list: 4 Goyfs, 4 Knights, 4 Bobs, 1 Ooze, 1 Pridemage, GSZ, 6-8 Discard, 4 Swords, 2-3 Pulse, and 2 Tops+the usual 23 lands. I love mid-range Junk because it suits my play style just perfectly, but I found that the list I was running was not doing great as Miracles was rising, and the RUG match up was just not great either. So I shelved the deck, and ran mostly Zombardment for the last few months. Now with Deathrite and Decay available, I'm back on the Junk-wagon. Ive been running sdematt's list for the most part (60 cards, no Timely Reinforcements, and Garruk is in the SB), and finding that the deck just gets there most of the time. I really attribute this to Sylvan Library, a card that I had not thought to use previously in this deck. Given that Library is nuts, is cutting tops altogether an option? I was tinkering with running 3 Libraries and no tops, instead adding the 4th Decay, or maybe an extra Goyf in the open spot. Thoughts?

My SB is as follows:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Pernicious Deed

crow_mw
12-13-2012, 11:57 AM
I really attribute this to Sylvan Library, a card that I had not thought to use previously in this deck. Given that Library is nuts, is cutting tops altogether an option? I was tinkering with running 3 Libraries and no tops, instead adding the 4th Decay, or maybe an extra Goyf in the open spot.

Better players than myself will probably come here to answer your questions, but throughout this thread multiple times people advised against running more than two libraries. The reason is, that a second one does absolutely nothing (more aggressive decks, like Maverick, actually often run only a single copy). 2/1 split with top is most likely a much better choice than three libraries.

Esper3k
12-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Unless you catch them in tap-out mode, Choke often ends up being subpar for a few reasons.

1) The deck can still with with Jace on board and a Choke.
2) Tapping out for a Jace through a Choke is still good for them.
3) They run Plains that allow them to Top while saving their Islands for ballbusting plays.

Choke doesn't do enough because they can save their mana for Entreat the Angels, or run with Karakas and Plains as much as possible. It just doesn't do enough unless you're heavy on other tax effects.

-Matt

I've been trying to find a haymaker card in the board that just wrecks UW. Speaking with UW players from my area, Choke still seems to be one of the cards they fear the most. Early game, it constrains their mana and even if they tap out to use a Jace, it significantly limits what they can do in subsequent turns (makes Counterspell/CB really difficult to cast, etc).

I've been toying around with the idea of Garruk, Primal Hunter as well.

Barbed Blightning
12-13-2012, 12:16 PM
He's obviously mana intensive but if he lands vs miracles you win. What about elspeth or gideon?

Esper3k
12-13-2012, 12:30 PM
He's obviously mana intensive but if he lands vs miracles you win. What about elspeth or gideon?

I thought about Elspeth, but the version I'm playing currently already runs Lingering Souls so I didn't want to increase my susceptibility to anti 1/1 tokens stuff.

Gideon doesn't seem as good since he makes all of their creature removal live?

Claymore
12-13-2012, 12:37 PM
I haven't tested it, but a promising haymaker against UW Miracles is Luminarch Ascension. Found it in the Deadguy Ale thread and it sounds intriguing enough:


It's incredible against Miracles. They can't Terminus or Swords it away, and it forces them to find an EtA quickly, which means fewer angels. Or they don't find it, and lose to one card.

I haven't used it against anybody else yet. It's obviously good against any deck that doesn't chip away at your life. It could be good against a slow BUG deck, and it would definitely rock against Lands. I would bring it in against combo too, other than Dredge. You can disrupt them, play Luminarch, and hope they can't rebuild in four turns. Not ideal, but it's better than keeping StP or BB in.

The danger you run into would be a random Snapcaster, Clique, or Venser, but those can be dealt with reasonably enough.

Another alternative along these lines would be Sacred Mesa.

Esper3k
12-13-2012, 02:32 PM
I haven't tested it, but a promising haymaker against UW Miracles is Luminarch Ascension. Found it in the Deadguy Ale thread and it sounds intriguing enough:



The danger you run into would be a random Snapcaster, Clique, or Venser, but those can be dealt with reasonably enough.

Another alternative along these lines would be Sacred Mesa.

Ascension seems decent and still playable under Teeg. I'll give it a spin tonight and see how it works out.

Amazing Larry
12-13-2012, 02:43 PM
Better players than myself will probably come here to answer your questions, but throughout this thread multiple times people advised against running more than two libraries. The reason is, that a second one does absolutely nothing (more aggressive decks, like Maverick, actually often run only a single copy). 2/1 split with top is most likely a much better choice than three libraries.

True, more than one Library does nothing on the board, but running three in my deck almost assures that I will see at least one during the course of the game. While it's true that second and third copies are essentially redundant, they can be useful if your opponent removes your 1st library. Also with library fixing your draws, and many ways to get a shuffle in this deck, you don't have to keep your extra copies if you don't want. Either way, I will test three copies to see if I like it. Hopefully I can get some playing time in this weekend, now that finals are over for me.

lyracian
12-13-2012, 05:11 PM
Gotta love how I don't get an email about this until AFTER it's posted.
Enjoy the read all, and tell me what you think.
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3385
-MattApart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?


i sold my two librarys about 2 months ago, needed the money..... sucks to be a "poor student" when you want to play legacy :D (i do not like the other formats :P)Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

Kich867
12-13-2012, 06:19 PM
Apart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?

Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

I would second the Garruk Relentless vote. I don't think I ever feel quite so dominant in a game as when he's hanging out dropping deathtouch tokens. His ultimate may seem small, but really, it's quite insane. Sometimes 2-3 wolves and a deathrite shaman can swing for ~16-20 damage on their own, even with two creatures in the graveyard you're often pushing a lethal swing through given the sheer board presence Garruk creates. Furthermore, unless your opponent has flying, until they kill Garruk they cannot profitably attack you ever.

Garruk Primal Hunter seems vastly inferior--his ultimate requires another turn to win, he's harder to cast, his card drawing power is potent but I much prefer the virtual card advantage / card selection from Relentless, and quite frankly a 3/3 isn't that intimidating in legacy. A 1/1 deathtouch token is significantly better, it always trades. Relentless has a much larger impact on the board state.

At worst, Relentless is an expensive bolt to a creature, on average he provides an engine for you to repeatedly tutor game-ending threats / stall the board until you find them naturally, and at his best he kills a creature, flips, runs the board and one-shots your opponent.

I don't think I can emphasize enough how insanely useful Garruk Relentless is when he hits the board.

Esper3k
12-13-2012, 06:35 PM
Another interesting card that was suggested to me today against UW was Bitterblossom. Anyone have any opinions on it?

godofallu
12-13-2012, 07:16 PM
Another interesting card that was suggested to me today against UW was Bitterblossom. Anyone have any opinions on it?

I played it in a more token orientated version and while it does do very well against control you can't expect 1/1's to have any impact without support. As in you need equipment or Intangible Virtue or Sorin or something to make them an actual threat.

With the right support the card is great, but that requires a lot of room and after a ton of testing I have come to realize that the large creatures version is superior. Mainly because it is more resistnet to sideboard hate and a much faster clock versus combo.

Mr. Safety
12-13-2012, 08:46 PM
I played it in a more token orientated version and while it does do very well against control you can't expect 1/1's to have any impact without support. As in you need equipment or Intangible Virtue or Sorin or something to make them an actual threat.

With the right support the card is great, but that requires a lot of room and after a ton of testing I have come to realize that the large creatures version is superior. Mainly because it is more resistnet to sideboard hate and a much faster clock versus combo.

I've been playing legacy U/b faeries in legacy for the past couple years, and Bitterblossom doesn't need support to be good. It's one of the best under-appreciated cards out there. I do play 2x Jitte to make them BETTER, along with some of the usual suspects (Spellstutter, Mutavault.) It plays really well with Snapcaster and Jace, too...you can lock opponents up with Bitterblossom while Jace does his thing. Blue is the best support color though, if only for Spellstutter. (Ensnaring Bridge out of the board is intense, especially with 2x maindeck Liliana)

But I digress...

I don't think Bitterblossom is good enough for Rock, not with how slow it is to gain value. If you're stifling tempo with blue elements and using Bitterblossom to get a 1/1 flying counterspell, then it can be incredible. Bitterblossom screams incremental value...and honestly, Bob does that waaaaay better than Bitterblossom. Less pain...but also less gain.

Mr. Safety
12-13-2012, 08:49 PM
I would second the Garruk Relentless vote. I don't think I ever feel quite so dominant in a game as when he's hanging out dropping deathtouch tokens. His ultimate may seem small, but really, it's quite insane. Sometimes 2-3 wolves and a deathrite shaman can swing for ~16-20 damage on their own, even with two creatures in the graveyard you're often pushing a lethal swing through given the sheer board presence Garruk creates. Furthermore, unless your opponent has flying, until they kill Garruk they cannot profitably attack you ever.

Garruk Primal Hunter seems vastly inferior--his ultimate requires another turn to win, he's harder to cast, his card drawing power is potent but I much prefer the virtual card advantage / card selection from Relentless, and quite frankly a 3/3 isn't that intimidating in legacy. A 1/1 deathtouch token is significantly better, it always trades. Relentless has a much larger impact on the board state.

At worst, Relentless is an expensive bolt to a creature, on average he provides an engine for you to repeatedly tutor game-ending threats / stall the board until you find them naturally, and at his best he kills a creature, flips, runs the board and one-shots your opponent.

I don't think I can emphasize enough how insanely useful Garruk Relentless is when he hits the board.

I agree with all of this...add to that Garruk Relentless is easier to cast at only 4 mana and only one green.

What makes him so good is his ability to deal with OPPOSING Deathrite Shamans. He pings and flips, dealing with a lot of small and annoying threats in the game (Bob, mana dorks, Deathrites, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, sometimes merfolks and goblins.) If you drop Garruk on an empty board, he's sweet too. Churning out 2/2 tokens each turn is really nice...

sdematt
12-13-2012, 10:50 PM
Apart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?

The decklist on there is missing a Maze of Ith to make it 61, I'll have to edit it.

@ Bombs

Garruk is very good, and I've been toying with Luminarch's Ascension, but I question if it's good enough or if we NEED it, as in, what other matchups matter with this card? I'll have to test it after exams.

Another good card to run as a more control bomb is Linvala. People are really missing the fact that Linvala shuts down opposing Deathrite Shamans AND doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, so it would be good in the BUG matches and Maverick.

-Matt

Claymore
12-13-2012, 11:01 PM
Since Im relatively new to this specific Rock deck, what are its problem matchups? I imagine Maverick and BUG arent terrible but the larger concern would be the likes of UW Miracles and combo. Anything else to keep an eye out for?

sdematt
12-13-2012, 11:39 PM
Since Im relatively new to this specific Rock deck, what are its problem matchups? I imagine Maverick and BUG arent terrible but the larger concern would be the likes of UW Miracles and combo. Anything else to keep an eye out for?

High Tide is not the greatest matchup, OmniTell can be scary if you don't have any hate early in the game (discard, Gaddock Teeg, etc.), Mono Red Burn, etc. Usually less popular combo matchups really suck to play against.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-14-2012, 12:32 AM
High Tide is not the greatest matchup, OmniTell can be scary if you don't have any hate early in the game (discard, Gaddock Teeg, etc.), Mono Red Burn, etc. Usually less popular combo matchups really suck to play against.

-Matt

I'd definitely agree that Burn's hard sometimes, esp. game one when you thoughtseize them. However, I think that Junk has game against everything (as per Matt's Primer) so there are no truly atrocious matchups.

Esper3k
12-14-2012, 02:18 AM
Yeah the strength of Junk is similar to Esper Stoneblade - you have fairly decent game against everything (at least no matchup feels unwinnable).

Conversely, this also means you have no autowin matchups either.

I'd say our toughest matchups are fast combo and UW Miracles.

Barbed Blightning
12-14-2012, 02:56 AM
Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

Dyvith
12-14-2012, 07:32 AM
Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

Take a look at my sideboard on Saturday - you may like it.

Esper3k
12-14-2012, 08:52 AM
Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

I considered Thrun as well, but I think one of the biggest problems we have against UW Miracles is Terminus, so he doesn't really help with that particular problem there.

Didn't really like Luminarch Ascension in my testing. Problem was that it's simply just too slow to get going mid-late game. I'm still liking Choke - it's also really good against the greedy Esper Stoneblade lists today that run only islands for their colored mana lands (some lists even cutting Glacial Fortress these days).

Dyvith
12-14-2012, 09:43 AM
I think the inclusion of Garruk and cards like Teeg after board make those matchups favorable as is.

AggroSteve
12-14-2012, 09:44 AM
Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

obviously i did not just sell my librarys alone, i sold cards for over 250 €, and the librarys had a quite good price, and at the time i just thought i would only need top anyway
now i could bite my ass for thinking like that

well for now i will be fine with tops, because library does not like shocklands :P

Barbed Blightning
12-14-2012, 09:58 AM
With nicfit and D&T in the NELC meta, I think I would rather have Elspeth to jump my dudes. Then again, tramples very good...

@Dyvith: could you post your sideboard here? I'm curious now. :P

Esper3k
12-14-2012, 10:23 AM
I think the inclusion of Garruk and cards like Teeg after board make those matchups favorable as is.

While Teeg is amazing against Miracles, I don't think he's as good for us as say for Maverick since they have Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper to keep Teeg safe from StP/PtE.

Barbed Blightning
12-14-2012, 10:41 AM
That is why I like extirpate; get rid of the swords, drop teeg, and you basically win. Alternatively somehow extirpate top

Esper3k
12-14-2012, 11:01 AM
That is why I like extirpate; get rid of the swords, drop teeg, and you basically win. Alternatively somehow extirpate top

I agree! I play Extirpate as well and when you Extirpate either StP or Terminus, you're just in such a great position.

sdematt
12-14-2012, 11:02 AM
While Teeg is amazing against Miracles, I don't think he's as good for us as say for Maverick since they have Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper to keep Teeg safe from StP/PtE.

This is true, but they're running 4 Swords, 3 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict once you're postboard, meaning they only have 4 that can hit Teeg, so they have to save their Swords and such. I can see them starting to board 2 PTE to help out against Teeg, but they can't have it all. They've got to get the correct removal to kill Teeg, then have other removal for our other dudes, which are all 4 hit ponies or less. They may have to waste Paths and Swords not on Teeg. In addition, we're also attacking with discard AND attacking them from the Planeswalker angle. I think all of these combined will definitely put the pressure on, since what do they remove to fit in all the extra cards?

So say they bring in 2 PTE, 2 Supreme Verdict, and a Moat. What are they cutting? In all honesty, probably some counters. Force of Will in this game becomes a liability, and they probably just turn into a deck with removal + win cons. Cool. Most of the Miracles players I've talked to bring out Force knowing we'll bring in more hand disruption, since at that point, there's no point to it. Forcing a Thoughtseize then getting Hymned is pretty brutal.

So, how are we protecting Gaddock Teeg? We're essentially not. Basically, rip apart hand, drop threats, hopefully make it their. Remember you can use Karakas to bounce Gaddock Teeg to your hand in response to removal. This could also help.

-Matt

Claymore
12-14-2012, 11:11 AM
As a former Nic Fit player, I'd much rather face Garruk than Elspeth unless you were able to start making deathwolves as a defensive measure, which can fall to Deed anyway. Elspeth makes a pretty quick clock with her jumping ability and can gum up the ground on her way to her indestructible ultimate.

Neither are as intimidating as Liliana.

Esper3k
12-14-2012, 11:16 AM
This is true, but they're running 4 Swords, 3 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict once you're postboard, meaning they only have 4 that can hit Teeg, so they have to save their Swords and such. I can see them starting to board 2 PTE to help out against Teeg, but they can't have it all.

Whenever I play against UW, they always have it all :(

The ones I play against actually like keeping in some Forces specifically because of haymakers we can throw at them like Teeg / Choke / Planeswalkers, etc.

Don't get me wrong, even though I don't think Teeg is as good for us as it is for Maverick, I still run him because he's too awesome not to play (plus doubling as combo hate is important too).

Kich867
12-14-2012, 12:39 PM
obviously i did not just sell my librarys alone, i sold cards for over 250 €, and the librarys had a quite good price, and at the time i just thought i would only need top anyway
now i could bite my ass for thinking like that

well for now i will be fine with tops, because library does not like shocklands :P

Dude story of my life, I've lost hundreds selling cards back to shops only for short term cash that I needed. Never again though, the collection starts now haha.

Mr. Safety
12-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I've tried both a single Garruk Relentless and a single Thrun. Garruk is better, hands down. That's not to say I don't have one in my sideboard occasionlly, but it's rare.

sdematt
12-14-2012, 10:51 PM
Thrun is VERY good, however, Terminus just takes him to town.

Elspeth is good, I agree, but the more white/token hate gets played, the worse she looks.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-14-2012, 10:53 PM
What about vs. Miracles? I like the jump ability over moat, and it also shores up the WBR NicFit matchup (Rector into Moat). She's also decent vs. goblins and Fish. Any token hate would be also applied to Garruk on the whole.

sdematt
12-14-2012, 11:07 PM
The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

Oiolosse
12-14-2012, 11:28 PM
The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

Her ability, toughness > 3 and evasion kick ass but it was my understanding that WW was too prohibitive in most builds? I thought that that was one of the main arguments against Elspeth.

lavafrogg
12-15-2012, 01:40 AM
The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

For Elspeth: WW is just too hard to get on a regular basis when we can do everything we need to be done with G.

For Linvala: Just does not do enough until the mirror match is a real issue.

sdematt
12-15-2012, 02:19 AM
Her ability, toughness > 3 and evasion kick ass but it was my understanding that WW was too prohibitive in most builds? I thought that that was one of the main arguments against Elspeth.

I'm just wondering if her abilities grant her enough of an argument for her inclusion. WW is tough, that's my issue. If she was 2GW, then this wouldn't be a conversation I think.

Also, I'm in the process of teching out the maindeck in preparation for Denver. Some things I'll openly talk about on here, other things I may keep under wraps until after Denver. I don't want to give away my tech you know.

What I do think is going to happen is CFB is going to come with a new deck like they did in Providence. I was already ready for Stoneblade back in the days of 2011, but I think this time they're bringing a 4C monstrosity. To combat this, as well as the revival of Esper Stoneblade packing Lingering Souls, I feel like UW Miracles is going to shift to either UWr with Blood Moon to screw over BUG/4C Garbage, or go to UWb to run Engineered Plague for its weak matchups: both Goblins and Esper Stoneblade, while simultaneously beating Maverick even harder. BUG right now seems to be beating up on RUG, so I'm not terribly worried about that matchup. I think it'll be played, but not to the same extent that we were seeing it before. RUG needs to start running 8 pieces of burn to deal with the amount of Deathrite Shaman to get anywhere, but now Nimble doesn't become a card unless they have Threshold, and they're losing ground to Abrupt Decay.

Maverick has sufficient tech in Linvala and Sylvan Safekeeper coupled with Gaddock Teeg. They need to cut a ton of the garbage they're running and shape up, but I think Maverick has game, especially against stuff like Gobbos.

To keep all this Rock-Paper-Scissoring in mind, I'm thinking of the following changes.

1) Dryad Arbor is the weakest land in the maindeck for sure. I love the card and allows for a ton of little tricks, but I think nonbasic hate may ramp up for Denver. There's a ton of greedy manabases out there that are looking for a good correction. I feel like I want to run another Swamp or Forest just to have some extra game against the mana denial decks, whether they be in the form of Blood Moon or Wasteland or Back to Basics.

2) I want Abrupt Decay #4. I'm not scared of Liliana, but I just want to have another answer to opposing creatures and permanents. Upping it to 8 pieces is high, but not awful. I feel like Inquisition #3 could be the 4th Abrupt Decay, since I don't want to cut GSZ, although GSZ #3 is probably the next weakest card. Garruk isn't getting cut.

3) Having 8 pieces of removal makes us better than any other deck in the format in dealing with opposing Shamans, so we may not even need Linvala.

4) Goblins may rise in popularity due to its speed and how good it is against Miracles. It's probably better against Esper, but I don't know the match well enough.


Suffice to say, the sideboard seems like it should be:

2 Engineered Plague (Humans for Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Spirit for Esperblade or Wizard to muck clique/snap)
3 Hymn to Tourach (Miracles, BUG, Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (combo, Miracles)
3 Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Dredge, etc.)
1 Scavenging Ooze (same thing)
2 Pernicious Deed (Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Maverick, Affinity, Enchantress, MUD)
1 Garruk Relentless (Maverick, Miracles, BUG)
1 Virtue's Ruin (Maverick, Death and Taxes)

Virtue's Ruin COULD be Golgari Charm, but I feel like against Maverick especially, as well as Esperblade if needed, Virtue's Ruin is an absolute blow out. This could be something, but I still feel like Ruin is VERY good. It could also be Teeg #3 or Hymn #4, or something else. Thoughts?

I feel like a Maverick list looking to out-tech the meta and slide through into Day 2 probably will look like:

3 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Linvala
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
25

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 STP
2 Sylvan
2 Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless
13

23 Lands

1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains

--BOARD--

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Compost

-Matt

Griselpuff
12-15-2012, 03:32 AM
Nice post Matt. However, I would say that the majority of people are not going to trying to outtech the CFB team (who knows if they will actually play UBGW Shaman Blade?), so anticipating adjustments to that is to our advantage, but we shouldn't expect many other people to do so. Anyways, I'd definitely love to do some more testing!

sdematt
12-15-2012, 11:22 AM
Nice post Matt. However, I would say that the majority of people are not going to trying to outtech the CFB team (who knows if they will actually play UBGW Shaman Blade?), so anticipating adjustments to that is to our advantage, but we shouldn't expect many other people to do so. Anyways, I'd definitely love to do some more testing!

I agree with this, however, I don't want to get screwed by not testing. It seems like the BUG+W deck is BUG with White, meaning less blue to worry about. I think we have a more consistent deck and can take them out. Time will tell.

-Matt

lyracian
12-15-2012, 11:59 AM
I feel like a Maverick list looking to out-tech the meta and slide through into Day 2 probably will look like:
-Matt
Looks a good Maverick list. I know I would want one Bujuka Bog. It is fun with Knight and allows you to activate all the abilities of Deathrite. Second Linvala could be a Fauna Shaman for searching or a lone Stoneforge to help get Jitte online.

lavafrogg
12-15-2012, 06:31 PM
For GP Denver I would play as few colors as possible, a long tourney you want as little pain from mana issues as possible and a 4 color monster has trouble written all over it. Straight maverick is going to be strong again soon with everyone derping around with abrupt decay and deathrite shaman. Mother of runes still comes down turn one and they can easily slide in Elspeths and Big Garrucks to stomp the Deathrite matchups.

godofallu
12-15-2012, 11:20 PM
Isn't the 4 color deck playing a decent amount of basics? More than most Rock lists I think. Plus it was doing well in the coverage today and yesterday. It does seem nice being able to get brainstorm and Jace added to Rock but it does seem like a lot of work trying to get the manabase right. Plus would have to give up on the Hymn/Liliana SB plan.

Linvala does stop DRS but what other creatures does BUG run that it stops? Against Stoneblade she comes too late to effect SFM which is the only card she hits. Against Miracles she doesn't hit anything either. Those 3 matchups is like 1/3 of the metagame so I don't know if she really does much at all, but I have never ran her before and I know there was a time when she was used effectively. I think that was for Maverick mirrors though.

I wouldn't want to be running a ton of white 1 def creatures when Lingering Souls is gaining in popularity. Dread of night might be coming to sideboards soon. But who knows.

sdematt
12-16-2012, 12:44 AM
Isn't the 4 color deck playing a decent amount of basics? More than most Rock lists I think. Plus it was doing well in the coverage today and yesterday. It does seem nice being able to get brainstorm and Jace added to Rock but it does seem like a lot of work trying to get the manabase right. Plus would have to give up on the Hymn/Liliana SB plan.

Linvala does stop DRS but what other creatures does BUG run that it stops? Against Stoneblade she comes too late to effect SFM which is the only card she hits. Against Miracles she doesn't hit anything either. Those 3 matchups is like 1/3 of the metagame so I don't know if she really does much at all, but I have never ran her before and I know there was a time when she was used effectively. I think that was for Maverick mirrors though.

I wouldn't want to be running a ton of white 1 def creatures when Lingering Souls is gaining in popularity. Dread of night might be coming to sideboards soon. But who knows.

I'm pretty sure the 4C list is running 0 basics, much like BUG. I've actually been liking my change to 4 basics (I tested against BUG Tempo today). 8 Pieces of removal against them is rough, coupled with Deathrite wars. I did miss Dryad in other matches, but this one was okay.

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-16-2012, 12:47 AM
I am saying: Drop your wastelands for a dustbowl and some serious basics, you cannot lose to self inflicted mana pains when these 4 color decks and 3 color plus wasteland decks are going to shoot themselves in the foot!

Establishing a mana base is one of the most important steps to winning a game as Junk or Maverick. We love our mana's.

Claymore
12-16-2012, 08:33 AM
Won an 8 man yesterday with first three picks out of Commanders Arsenal on the line. Took the same list as before except I dropped a Bayou for a Plains and in the side I snap swapped Engineered Plague for Relentless when I saw goblins showed up.

Matches

Goblins 2-0
Lands 1-0-1 (<3 DRS)
MiracleBlade #1 0-2

Top 4

MiracleBlade #2 2-0
MiracleBlade #1 2-1

Both miracle varieties were Countertop.

Liliana continued to do work where alternatives would have faltered, and she had a corner case game 2 vs lands where he had out ensnaring bridge, creeping tarpit and I was at 3 life, but Liliana showed she could keep his hand down during extra turns and he scooped for the match loss. There were a few times where she was a liability, like game 3 finals when I had to hold Surgical Extraction as a miracle countermeasure (which later won the game) and couldn't sacrifice other cards, but she was largely effective in controlling his hand so I could drop removal unimpeded (Pulse on Jace/Batterskull).

Decay/Pulse felt good at 3/2 all day.

Any tips on sideboarding for Miracletop? I never had a firm swap established and waffled a lot between games. The top 4 matches I did something along the lines of:

In: 2*Pernicious Deed (Game 2 on the play only), 3*Surgical Extraction, 2*Gaddock Teeg, 1 Virtue's Ruin
Out: 4 StP, 1 Ooze, 1-3 Inquisition

I can't remember if I did Hymn game 2...which didn't show up anyway. With RiP showing up it seems important to try and keep a lot of turn 1 discard available, but at the same time Miracles has plenty of means to Brainstorm or just play off the top of their library.

Virtue's ruin did work to take out early Stoneforges and has obvious means to clear the skies if they don't kill you immediately. Deed can do the same thing but is extremely reactive and felt like a liability overall.

Thoughts? I think I'll put Garruk back in the sideboard as well.

sdematt
12-16-2012, 01:54 PM
I ran against BUG Tempo that Martell was running on MTGO and the matchup wasn't awful for us. I was really tired on the last post, but it's not a bad matchup at all, especially once we bring in Hymns and such and take out the worse cards. I didn't feel like I missed the extra piece of hand disruption, but I feel like the 4th Decay did make a difference.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Is hymn really that good against Miracles?

Also, anyone have advice against 12 Post, or is it simply Wasteland Cloudpost - Extirpate? There are a few at Jupiter Games, and I had the misfortune of running into it.

I was thinking about Armageddon against control/Post. Thoughts?

lambert101
12-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Hi all, with the holidays coming and my last semester of graduate school I decided to sell my collection and get into the rock. Below is a main and side I want to try along with boarding plans. Please feel free to comment. Also note it plays like a temp deck and is close to Barbed Lightning’s list because we both made the list arguing on the pulse vs. vindicate due to personal preferences.

Rock Main Deck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

SB:
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bojuka Bog

Vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords + 3 Gaddock Teeg
- 1 Maze of Ith + 1 Bojuka Bog
- 1 Liliana of the Veil + 3 Extrapate
- 2 Inquisition of Kozelik + 1 Garruk Relentless

Vs. RUG
- 4 thoughtseize + 3 Extripate
+ 1 Bojuka Bog

Still am developing boarding plans. Please help. Thank you.

H0tmilk
12-16-2012, 04:23 PM
I am curious why liliana of the veil would be a better choice for Rock over Garruk relentless? Now don't get me wrong I think liliana is a great card, and I used it regularly when I was playing bw stoneblade ( which tombstslker version might put up good results in the current meta) I personally dont want to discard some of our bombs. I think the abilities of Garruk outclass liliana right now. I would love some feedback on why we should run liliana over garruk.

Claymore
12-16-2012, 05:08 PM
Is hymn really that good against Miracles?

Hymn probably isn't good, which is why I decided to take it out but was hoping to see what you people thought. There's obviously the back breaking turn 1 disruption, turn 2 Hymn but in the late game I felt it wouldn't be relevant enough since they don't reload their hand until it's too late (active Jace).

Armageddon sounds pretty good, with a Sylvan Library or Deathrite out we can certainly rebuild faster and it is definitely back breaking in the late game. It also answers the question I was recently having of how to prevent a late game miracle, but you need to empty their hand of lands so they can't use the Top.



Vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords + 3 Gaddock Teeg
- 1 Maze of Ith + 1 Bojuka Bog
- 1 Liliana of the Veil + 3 Extrapate
- 2 Inquisition of Kozelik + 1 Garruk Relentless

I actually enjoyed having Maze of Ith in vs Miracles, since their threats are generally light and are along the lines of an active Batterskull or Vendilion Clique. It helped me out immensely to be able to buy time against those threats. Bojuka bog was useful as well.

--

I like Liliana right now because she's more generally relevant against the field. I was goldfishing the deck before I took it to my first tournament and felt it just lacked an engine even when I drew the Garruk, but found that adding Liliana gave the deck a wide variety of tools to combat any situation. In my matches against Miracles I found she gave me constant pressure on their hand as well as taking down their limited creatures, and I felt similarly when testing her against my friend's BW Stoneblade and DnT decks.

The big thing to me is that this deck has a lot of card selection and draw with Sylvan, Top, and Dark Confidant to limit her drawback and generally I'm capable of dropping my hand before her ability becomes a problem. I've tried to play her in Nic Fit, where you depend on high casting bombs, and that was definitely a deck where she did not gel with the deck. I did have some issues with her late against the Miracles deck, but its just something to play around.

I do like what Garruk brings to the table, but you might be left pooping out 2/2's in a matchup where it doesn't matter. That said I may try to go from 3/0 to a 2/1 Lili/Garruk split for the mainboard.

It seems to me that the general consensus around here is to run no Liliana, but I enjoy her company with my playstyle for now.

godofallu
12-16-2012, 06:52 PM
I am curious why liliana of the veil would be a better choice for Rock over Garruk relentless? Now don't get me wrong I think liliana is a great card, and I used it regularly when I was playing bw stoneblade ( which tombstslker version might put up good results in the current meta) I personally dont want to discard some of our bombs. I think the abilities of Garruk outclass liliana right now. I would love some feedback on why we should run liliana over garruk.

Because Liliana is good against everything, while Garruk is garbage in some matchups. Like combo, pox, affinity, even most tribal.

But in all honesty Liliana is considered a removal spell and doesn't really take room from Garruk but Maelstrom pulse and Ith.

sdematt
12-16-2012, 11:51 PM
I think Hymn is good against Miracles, but you're mostly running it against Combo as well. Remember that we ideally want splash hate that covers multiple matchups. Hymns can be backbreaking in many matchups assuming we play it in turns 1-4.

I'm interested to see the results of the Invitational.

I guess I should start the second part of my article as well :P

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-16-2012, 11:58 PM
I am curious why liliana of the veil would be a better choice for Rock over Garruk relentless? Now don't get me wrong I think liliana is a great card, and I used it regularly when I was playing bw stoneblade ( which tombstslker version might put up good results in the current meta) I personally dont want to discard some of our bombs. I think the abilities of Garruk outclass liliana right now. I would love some feedback on why we should run liliana over garruk.

What bombs would that be? The way I see it, Lilliana IS our bomb. Knight is the next biggest thing we have, but hell, we run four of those (imo, we should run 4 of all of our creatures). Maybe she's not as stellar in a GSZ/Toolbox-style Junk deck, where the actual threat density is scattered and lower, but in the quad-style deck lambert and I play, it's not that huge an issue to discard a Goyf. For that matter, Lilly allows us to discard and extra Top, another copy of herself or a library to give goyf those precious extra pumps to his P/T.

I think, as godofallu said, Garruk is more situationally powerful than Lilly. His token production and ping is good in the mirror or against Miracles, but he's absolute garbage against Combo, not to mention his cmc is 4, which is awful off a blind bob. Lilly, on the other hand, has a +1 that is great against combo, aggro and midrange decks, a -2 that's good vs. aggro and mid-range, and a -6 that totally wrecks most decks. She's a perfect goyf pumper, yet another source of removal, a source of constant discard that, in actual practice, rarely hits you, and a potential blowout that pays you for it.

Garruk's in my SB for now. I'm not convinced (for my playstyle) that he's an auto-include in our main.

On the note of Liliana and SBs: anybody considered Loam? Especially against the mirror, allowing you to dredge up wastelands or fetches is awesome. It also gives Liliana cards to pitch (e.g., lands over a Decay), and gives you a way to skim bad cards off the top of your deck, virtually allowing top to see deeper.

sdematt
12-17-2012, 01:32 AM
I had Loam in the board for a while against RUG, but I didn't feel I needed it so I cut it for Ooze/Tracker.

I'm going to post some lists in the next couple of days that if you're going to Denver, we should be testing against these lists.

-Matt

Mr. Safety
12-17-2012, 09:23 AM
Is hymn really that good against Miracles?

Also, anyone have advice against 12 Post, or is it simply Wasteland Cloudpost - Extirpate? There are a few at Jupiter Games, and I had the misfortune of running into it.

I was thinking about Armageddon against control/Post. Thoughts?

I wouldn't to it unless you're planning on some number of Loam somewhere in your 75.

To all: I have found that Ensnaring Bridge can be pretty awesome alongside Liliana, but it was always tied in with something to break the symmetry like Bitterblossom. Is there potential for a swap of Knight of the Reliquary/Goyf out of the maindeck for Bridge/additional hate? I would think that Garruk would naturally lend himself greatly to the synergy by making tokens and anybody playing Lingering Souls + Jitte would be in a really good strategic position against anything that wanted to win with creatures. Bridge also doubles as good hate against other decks using big Knights or Show and Tell decks slinging Emrakul.

Curious about this line of play, because it's quite a bit outside the box. I would be using Bridge out of the board and bringing in Teeg, Scryb Ranger (for doubling up Deathrites), and maybe even Lingering Souls (if I could make room in my sideboard, or even maindeck.) I would love some feedback from folks using Stoneforge Mystic with Jitte/Souls, if only for discussion's sake.

Dyvith
12-17-2012, 09:53 AM
I feel like I'm adjusting this every day, but based on recent testing, this is what I think I'll be playing for the near immediate future:


Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Planeswalkers:

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Removal:

4 Swords
3 Decay

Disruption:

4 Thoughtseise
2 Inquisition

Library Manipulation:

2 Sensei's Top
1 Sylvan Library

Mana Sources/Lands:
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mase of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Svannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast/ Maelstrom Pulse
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Abrupt Decay

Rationale behind card choices:

I like the idea of Planeswalker Junk - I think that having so many gives us a great advantage the longer the games go. In order to facilitate getting there, the deck runs two basics, eight fetches to get them, and a one-of Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is a flex card - it is neither mana source nor card advantage, but it provides three things for our deck. First, it is another "0" to flip off of Dark Confidant. Second, it allows us to ramp to two on turn one or three on turn two - occasionally, ramping to three on turn four is also relevant. Most think that this means that you can just a turn one Dark Confidant into an open board, however a more practical use for this is turn one Deathrite Shaman plus Mox Diamond plus discard with the ability to play a turn two Knight or Liliana regardless of whether or not you have another land. If you had the absolute nut draw, you could play turn two Garruk.

Seven removal spells is iffy - sometimes you want less, sometimes you want more. Swords is in an awkward position right now, simply because Abrupt Decay is so insane. Sometimes, Swords is the nuts - for one white it does everything, however the flexibility of Abrupt Decay has warranted a slot for the fourth one in the sideboard.

In addition to the seven removal spells, the deck comes packed with six one mana discard spells, four copies of Thoughseise and two of Inquisition. The idea here is simple, overload with one drops. Historically, one of Junk's weaknesses was that it was the "two-drop" deck. I am looking to break away from that mold. Whenever I play Magic with no turn one play, even if it is just a Swords on their one drop, I always feel like I am losing. We aren't playing with counterspells - we simply cannot afford to waste our entire first turn doing nothing, especially when most of our two drops are so easily disrupted or countered when we haven't even begun to apply board pressure.

To add to our disruption suite, we have our four walkers, both of which can remove pesky creatures. Liliana is very much the bread and butter of this deck, resolving her early will never win the game, but our deck is simply better positioned for winning the types of games that go long - which is why we have included a singleton Sylvan Library and two copies of Sensei's Top. While this deck incurs a heavy penalty to it's own life total, Sylvan Library provides three advantages - In some matchups, it is simply an inconvenient, more expensive, less protectable top - while this is unfortunate, in other matchups, it can allow you to draw upwards of four to five cards, especially against decks that are using Swords on your big dudes. In addition, with top, you can really get the most bang for your buck, and even without top, you essentially can "top for free" once per turn.

Our creature suite is simple. The best of the best, times four, every time. I think I can avoid going into specifics, but if I need to, I will.

Sideboard:

This is my pride and joy. I have spent a great deal of time working on this, and at the moment, the only thing that is up in the air is whether or not to cut the One-of Darkblast for a One-of Maelstrom Pulse for match ups that include Tokens or what not.

Vs. Miracles

-4 Goyf
-4 Swords
-1 Mase of Ith
-1 Deathrite Shaman

+1 Pulse
+2 Hymn
+1 Duress
+2 Pridemage
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Bog
+1 Abrupt Decay

The whole point of this sideboard is to punish counterbalance and anything else, as well as avoiding Rest in Peace. For those of you that don't know, Rest in Peace is a real card, and it is a serious beating against us. Just the threat of having it brought in makes our Goyf's tremble more than a turn one Ad Naeusem. Okay, maybe not that much, but you get the gist.

Vs. Goblins (This is subject to change)

On the draw:
-2 Inquisition
-1 Thoughtseise
-1 Knight
-1 Liliana
-1 Confidant

+2 Plague
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Qasali Pridemage

On the play:
-1 Inquisition
-1 Confidant
-1 Liliana
-1 Knight

+2 Plague
+1 Decay
+1 Pulse

Bringing in more removal is always good. Liliana gets worse because of cards like War Marshal and Knight becomes a little worse because while he won't ever die, he's not the best at getting in for damage. On the draw, disruption gets worse because Vial and Lackey are already in play, so you play more threats and removal, hence the Pridemages.

Vs. RUG

-1 Liliana
-1 Garruk
-3 Thoughtseise

+1 Bog
+1 Decay
+1 Duress
+2 Hymn

If they bring in Sulfuric Vortex, you bring in Pridemages.

This deck is tough, but only if they cut you off your resources. Decay is the best card you have against them. In a way, Thoughtseise is better than hymn against these guys because Hymn gets countered so much, however, you need to manage the life loss against them since they always win short and rarely win long. Post board, Knight gets worse if you don't have perfect information because of the presence of Submerge.

Vs. TES/ANT:

-4 Swords
-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Garruk
-1 Mase of Ith
-1 Liliana

+1 Duress
+2 Hymn
+2 Thalia
+2 Teeg
+1 Cannonist
+2 Pridemage
+1 Bog

Against them, Goyf is a clock that isn't fast enough, so we bring in infinitely more disruption. Bog is brought in as another mana source and a way of stopping Past In Flames, Threshold for Cabals, or more mana off of Rites. Thalia is a beating, as is Teeg. Cannonist is too. Pridemage offers a clock with disruption, etc, etc.

James
12-17-2012, 04:24 PM
And what about Loxodon Smiter or Leyline of Sanctity as a sideboard tech against mirror/BUG?

The meta seems plenty of BGx decks, Deathrites and Lilianas, Loxodon is great against Liliana's ability or Thoughtseize and it is very usefull in other matches such as RUG (which is one of the tiers). At least is a 4/4 for 3 mana.

Leyline of Sanctity is also great against discard or Liliana ability, and even better against combo or burn which are difficult pairings. Why is this card is not included in sideboards? Of course you need to run 4 copies and try to open the hand with it but I see it very determinative while playing against combor/burn.

Deathmark is also an interesting option if no tribal is played.

sdematt
12-17-2012, 10:46 PM
The main problem with Leyline is sucking up 4 Slots, which can be brutal.

I've run Deathmark in the past, especially when killing a T2 SFM was necessary, and when Maverick was super popular, but I think with 4 Decay and 4 STP you're fine here.

Smiter is not bad at all, but he's a 4/4 that can't be countered (good) but easily removed by Swords/Decay (bad). I would say he's decent though against opposing (or your own) Lilianas.

-Matt

Esper3k
12-17-2012, 10:58 PM
Smiter is not bad at all, but he's a 4/4 that can't be countered (good) but easily removed by Swords/Decay (bad). I would say he's decent though against opposing (or your own) Lilianas.

-Matt

I'm not certain if you meant that you can drop him off of your own Lilianas' discard, but Smiter can only be dropped via discard effects your opponents control.

sdematt
12-17-2012, 11:03 PM
I'm not certain if you meant that you can drop him off of your own Lilianas' discard, but Smiter can only be dropped via discard effects your opponents control.

I guess I should read cards before I comment on them. Oops.

I mean, I was dancing a bit in my head if Smiter could be dropped off your own Liliana.

@ Dyvith

I'm going to read over your last post a bit more before I comment on it, but it wasn't ignored.

-Matt

sdematt
12-19-2012, 02:32 AM
I saw the raw power of Liliana being used against me while playing against a BUG deck today in testing. The card definitely seemed the best when you were just drawing a ton of cards off Confidant in conjunction, as well as Jace, Brainstorm, etc. I could see Liliana being good when your opponent is in topdeck mode, so I understand where you guys are coming from, but damn was Garruk also really good as well.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-19-2012, 04:36 PM
I saw the raw power of Liliana being used against me while playing against a BUG deck today in testing. The card definitely seemed the best when you were just drawing a ton of cards off Confidant in conjunction, as well as Jace, Brainstorm, etc. I could see Liliana being good when your opponent is in topdeck mode, so I understand where you guys are coming from, but damn was Garruk also really good as well.

-Matt

Liliana's good even when you aren't drawing cards. I've won many games with her by simply playing whatever I drew and ticking her up by one. Rarely will I be in the position of having something in-hand that I NEED to keep, esp. with a 4-of-style list. She's also good against an active top if you have destruction in hand. Destroy Top, they draw, you make them discard it.

I prefer her because she's an omnitool. +1 helps against spell-based decks. -2 against creature decks. Practically no deck survives her -6. At her very worst, she's a diabolic edict with a fog attached to it--that then pumps Goyf by 1. Hell, even if they counter her, she's great to toss into the yard, simply to add planeswalker to Tarmogoyf's P/T.

I dislike Garruk because half of his abilities are inaccessible until he loses counters, and he loses them by using what is essentially weak removal. 2/2's every turn is nice against miracles, I suppose, but if I was going to cast a 4 cmc walker it would be Elspeth, since she gets your dudes over a Moat and makes Goyf/Knight even scarier, and she makes 1/1s. Double white isn't that hard to get against miracles, since they run no wastelands, and you wouldn't bring her in against many other matchups. I'd probably use her in the mirror, as well, even with the wastelands.

Regardless, I just don't see the rationale against Liliana. I think she is one of the best cards in our collective pool and should be in abused in every Junk list out there.

Kyle
12-19-2012, 07:44 PM
1-mana Teeg protection: Crop Rotation.

sdematt
12-20-2012, 01:52 AM
While your statement is true Kyle, I don't think that's an ideal use of slots.

So far, this is what I'm going to run at Legacy tomorrow:

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless

-BOARD-
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virtue's Ruin

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-20-2012, 03:05 AM
While your statement is true Kyle, I don't think that's an ideal use of slots.

So far, this is what I'm going to run at Legacy tomorrow:

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless

-BOARD-
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Virtue's Ruin

-Matt

I like your lists more and more everyone you update them. With only five pieces of disruption do you just hope to dodge combo all day long? I feel that teeg main board would help much more than it would hurt.

I am aware that you pay in a very aggro friendly environment and you love playing the board control role.

Oiolosse
12-20-2012, 03:30 AM
As opposed to teeg for tracker?

sdematt
12-20-2012, 12:43 PM
As opposed to teeg for tracker?

Since I do have the tracker, I may remove a Swords to Plowshares to add in the 4th Abrupt Decay. I've been secretly testing tracker again, and with all the Delver and stuff in the format, dropping Goyf and Tracker is bad news for most decks (or even better, a large Knight and Tracker). Tracker HAS TO eat an Abrupt Decay/piece of removal or your opponent is faced with getting nut kicked. Plus, no one counters the GSZ for one since they expect a DRS (which they plan to kill anyway or not care about with say, a Planeswalker in play).

If I make that cut, then the 1 STP can become the 4th Abrupt Decay, and I can add the 6th piece of hand disruption back in. I'm contemplating being greasy and running the Hymns in the main in place of the Thoughtseizes and running the Inquisitions in the board :P

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-20-2012, 02:11 PM
Since I do have the tracker, I may remove a Swords to Plowshares to add in the 4th Abrupt Decay. I've been secretly testing tracker again, and with all the Delver and stuff in the format, dropping Goyf and Tracker is bad news for most decks (or even better, a large Knight and Tracker). Tracker HAS TO eat an Abrupt Decay/piece of removal or your opponent is faced with getting nut kicked. Plus, no one counters the GSZ for one since they expect a DRS (which they plan to kill anyway or not care about with say, a Planeswalker in play).

If I make that cut, then the 1 STP can become the 4th Abrupt Decay, and I can add the 6th piece of hand disruption back in. I'm contemplating being greasy and running the Hymns in the main in place of the Thoughtseizes and running the Inquisitions in the board :P

-Matt

that's super greasy.I would expect a deck to dodge all of the abrupt decay by going over the top with large creatures and cheap spells to get them there.sort of like how loam players were everywhere when misstep was popular

sdematt
12-20-2012, 04:11 PM
What I meant to say was to run 3 Thoughtseize and 3 Hymn and move Inquisitions to the board, but you got my point.

I think going big is definitely a relevant strategy, but how many bomb cards are worth going over the Top? Elspeth, Garruk, Jace, Moat, Humility, the Abyss. But, with so much cheap countering and discard strategies as of late, I doubt a deck is going to make it very far by moving beyond the three drops. It's Stax-syndrome all over again. They cut off your mana and you get stuck with a hand full of 3+ drops and no consistent manabase.

We shall see, time will tell.

-Matt

dballard
12-20-2012, 04:50 PM
@ Matt - Would it make more sense to run a 2nd Plains or Forest as opposed to Swamps for use with KotR?

sdematt
12-20-2012, 04:53 PM
@ Matt - Would it make more sense to run a 2nd Plains or Forest as opposed to Swamps for use with KotR?

I was toying with the idea of a 2nd Forest, but I looked at the amount of black mainboard and sideboard, and for mana consistency, Swamp might be a touch better. If not, I'd be running the Forest for exactly that reason (also, I'm running GSZ, so my Green dependence is a bit higher).

-Matt

Claymore
12-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Going over the top with high mana cost spells? Sounds like a job for Nic Fit.

lavafrogg
12-21-2012, 12:58 AM
Going over the top with high mana cost spells? Sounds like a job for Nic Fit.

Without relying on a 1/1 dying. I'm thinking more about tombstalkers and planeswalkers. He cannot be killed outside of dismember and he is damn cheap to cast, planeswalkers could give a shit about DRS and Abrupt Decay. 3 Garruk main/side would most likely be enough, you get discard and removal to get to the stage where you can drop him, kill a shaman/snapcaster/delver and then take control of the ground for the rest of the game.

On top of that, can BUG or RUG deal with a predator ooze? He only costs three and is golden against anything that does not play white.

somethingdotdotdot
12-21-2012, 02:56 AM
BUG has liliana, diabolic edict, darkblast, and dismember to deal with the ooze. Also, if you flip garruk relentless, decay/explosives can get it b/c it becomes a 0cc card. So vs bug, its probably best not to flip the garruk.

sdematt
12-21-2012, 02:57 AM
I think I'd like to say the 2nd Forest is better, for sure. Was playing tonight and the 2nd Forest would have been miles better. My mistake.

-Matt

sdematt
12-21-2012, 01:20 PM
My friend was running an interesting Miracles build that I had suggested with Trinket Mage, EE, Maindeck Relic, and Moat, Humility, and Blood Moon in the side. I ran up against it all night (along with BUG), and this was not a fun time for me. Clumping issues aside since I tried new sleeves, I died pretty atrociously.

I'll do more testing later in the week to try and shore up the matchup. I came close to closing out the games, but just came up short.

I was also playing against the midrange BUg deck: No maindeck counterspells, but Deathrites, Goyf, Clique, and Dark Confidant. That there is a good deck. Very consistent and can really put the pressure on. I also had some Top troubles. Against Tempo decks, they love seeing you with Top, since you have to use up your mana to filter more, and then they just run out threats/removal and murder you. I was talking to the BUG player (It was a team match, 2 people were playing the BUG deck to make sure no mistakes were made versus me on Junk) and he said Top is the play he wants to see on my Turn 1, since it means he gets a free pass. I understood where he was coming from. Games where I had Sylvan I was much further ahead, but with Top, I usually died due to mana constriction.

He suggested running the 3rd Library. Why? It doesn't use mana. If you have life, you can draw the extra cards and go deep to keep up with Blue. Plus, it's an immediate Abrupt Decay target, so one might not stick around long.

I think in light of this, I'm going to retool the maindeck again. Liliana might be coming in, just maybe. The BUG guys said Liliana was super awkward for them, but was worth a try. Also, I hate Geist of St. Traft. Let this be noted.

-Matt

Amazing Larry
12-21-2012, 04:31 PM
My friend was running an interesting Miracles build that I had suggested with Trinket Mage, EE, Maindeck Relic, and Moat, Humility, and Blood Moon in the side. I ran up against it all night (along with BUG), and this was not a fun time for me. Clumping issues aside since I tried new sleeves, I died pretty atrociously.

I'll do more testing later in the week to try and shore up the matchup. I came close to closing out the games, but just came up short.

I was also playing against the midrange BUg deck: No maindeck counterspells, but Deathrites, Goyf, Clique, and Dark Confidant. That there is a good deck. Very consistent and can really put the pressure on. I also had some Top troubles. Against Tempo decks, they love seeing you with Top, since you have to use up your mana to filter more, and then they just run out threats/removal and murder you. I was talking to the BUG player (It was a team match, 2 people were playing the BUG deck to make sure no mistakes were made versus me on Junk) and he said Top is the play he wants to see on my Turn 1, since it means he gets a free pass. I understood where he was coming from. Games where I had Sylvan I was much further ahead, but with Top, I usually died due to mana constriction.

He suggested running the 3rd Library. Why? It doesn't use mana. If you have life, you can draw the extra cards and go deep to keep up with Blue. Plus, it's an immediate Abrupt Decay target, so one might not stick around long.

I think in light of this, I'm going to retool the maindeck again. Liliana might be coming in, just maybe. The BUG guys said Liliana was super awkward for them, but was worth a try. Also, I hate Geist of St. Traft. Let this be noted.

-Matt

Yeah I totally agree with the 3 Libraries for much the same reason. It often gets blown up, requires no mana, and if you do draw additional unwanted libraries, just put them back on top, then shuffle away with a fetchland or Knight activation. 3 Libraries is definitely the way to go for Junk. A blue deck like Team America can afford to go with a singleton library with all their cantrips, but Junk wants to see library at least once per game. I would never go less than 3 in Junk again.

Claymore
12-21-2012, 05:27 PM
Would running 3 Libraries instead of a 2/1 Library/Top be better? In several games I managed to get an early Top but would drop a Library anyway due to its card draw ability and the Top became largely useless aside from being silly and Topping end of my opponent's turn before my own draw step.

sdematt
12-21-2012, 11:37 PM
Would running 3 Libraries instead of a 2/1 Library/Top be better? In several games I managed to get an early Top but would drop a Library anyway due to its card draw ability and the Top became largely useless aside from being silly and Topping end of my opponent's turn before my own draw step.

When you have mana to spend, Top is great. The problem is, in the early game you don't have the mana to derdle around with Tops like you do in Miracles. You want to be drawing and looking at cards. Plus, we now have more competing one drops, and Top is usually not on the Top of my list of card selection, further putting us behind. In addition, additional Libraries can be discarded to Liliana if you're running her.

Right now, I think the boogeymen in the format are Miracles and BUG, closely followed by Esperblade, Goblins, and some sort of Combo. I think if we can find lists that do well against either Miracles or BUG, and at least 2 of the others, then we have something very good.

I'll be brewing and keep you all posted. I'm looking back at Komar's sideboard plan at the moment and thinking about what's actually getting us there in what matchups and what isn't. What we need gentleman, are 2-for-1's. 1-for-1's aren't going to cut the mustard, especially against Miracles.

-Matt

damionblackgear
12-22-2012, 07:41 PM
Gave the "new" deck a shot. I feel that even with my rust, I don't think this is the way I want to take the deck from this point. For me, it was a little too color dependent and required more "luck" that I prefer.

My thoughts: All in all, Hymn was sub-par all day.

Garruk did less work than Lili. I actually think Thrun would be a better call than Garruk. I'm aware that it's not an infinite stream of creatures but those wolves gave way too much time to the matches he was relevant in. I'm aware the damage progression from garruk. Honestly though, how often do those wolves accomplish the task that quickly? Thrun will deal 20 damage in 5 successful attacks. That also means he kills an angel if they decide to block.

He's also more relevant against most of the rest of the format than Garruk as it's basically all targeted removal and a couple sweepers which don't stop regeneration.

If you're wondering, the matches were: 2x Miracles (1-4), Bug w/visions (1-2), MUD(2-0), and Reanimator (2-0). Reanimator and MUD are both great matchups so counting them in towards the difference doesn't count in my eyes.

I'll be rewinding my old list a little bit and am looking into Blood Moon for an alternative to a catch all for the format. I know most people are probably thinking that's a bad thing but we should be able to operate well underneath one where-as most of the format's manabase is extremely greedy.

Barbed Blightning
12-22-2012, 08:25 PM
Garruk did less work than Lili. I actually think Thrun would be a better call than Garruk. I'm aware that it's not an infinite stream of creatures but those wolves gave way too much time to the matches he was relevant in. I'm aware the damage progression from garruk. Honestly though, how often do those wolves accomplish the task that quickly? Thrun will deal 20 damage in 5 successful attacks. That also means he kills an angel if they decide to block.

He's also more relevant against most of the rest of the format than Garruk as it's basically all targeted removal and a couple sweepers which don't stop regeneration.


I also like Thrun for this same reason. He's a rock-solid beat stick that REQUIRES Miracles to Terminus or put up some kind of blocker. If we manage to keep up a Karakas, even Terminus is useless. I think he's also powerful in the mirror, against BUG, and even against Blade and RUG decks.

sdematt
12-22-2012, 09:33 PM
While I was serving derdly customers at work, I also thought about Thrun.

-Matt

Mr. Safety
12-22-2012, 10:07 PM
A few notes:

1) I have a singleton Scryb Ranger back into my maindeck as a GSZ target. Getting double Shaman activations is good, sometimes game winning good.

2) I have also gone back to using 1x Cabal Pit in my maindeck. It has dealt with Shamans, and Soul tokens while the equip ability is on the stack, along with many other threats (Delver, Snapcaster to name a couple)

Just some thoughts. I'm back to 4x Wasteland as well...because I like how Shaman can still get me to 3-4 mana. I like the ability to screw with BUG/RUG's mana base too much to play less than 4. It's for this same reason I'm back to a singleton Loam as well (playing 24 lands and 61 cards btw.)

My current list for reference (still need Bobs)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reiliquary
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Qasali Pridemage

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate
1x Life from the Loam
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Sylvan Library
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Green Sun's Zenith

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Treetop Village
1x Cabal Pit
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Swamp


When I get Dark Confidant, he will take the 2 Arena slots along with probably the 2 Deed slots (which will go to the sideboard.) My sideboard is open right now (only guaranteed slots are 1x Gaddock Teeg and 4x Leyline of Sanctity), but I'm toying with these cards:

Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Hymn to Tourach
Umezawa's Jitte
Lingering Souls
Timely Reinforcements

godofallu
12-22-2012, 10:38 PM
I used to run Thrun in a hexproof Bant type list. Ended up cutting him because it was always better to just wait an extra turn to get Sigarda since Thrun doesn't win a game nearly as easily as Sigarda does.

Thrun is going to catch Liliana's -2 and parishes all day long. Don't joke about the regenerate clause since I have never seen it help me. Plus the can't be countered line is useless when you find him through GSZ 4/5 times. Just wait till you start paying 4 mana for a card that is instantly outclassed by Tarmogoyf. I have and it loses you games.

Garruk is better than Thrun no doubt. Neither is all that good against a variety of decks though. You need threats that can be decent against Combo and Aggro and Control. KOTR can find wastelands to bomb tempo decks and keep ramp/control decks locked out of games. It can find karakas or Bog to stop show and tell/dredge/reanimator. It can out fight most aggro decks too. KOTR can go in a maindeck without hurting any matchup. Thrun can not.

If I were to start digging for sideboard win conditions instead of hate my list for testing would have these: No-Pro (3/1), Phyrexian Arena, Lingering Souls, Garruk Relentless, Bloodgift Demon.

Souls makes Liliana and Jace weaker, laughs at abrupt decay, and combos well with your own Liliana. It's also a bad card maindeck against combo and super aggro.

Arena can simply out draw most midranged decks. With Library and Bob as well you would have a hard time being locked out due to an opposing Liliana, and even a Jace that sticks on an opponents side would have trouble burying you in card advantage. Abrupt decay and other 1-1's won't be enough to put you away.

Garruk Releantless is the same token strategy as Lingering Souls expect it's even better against Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, but worse against Liliana and Jace.

Never tried No-Pro in Rock but frankly it does wonders for me in Bant, although I do run counters to help seal the deal. Might be worth testing though.

Claymore
12-22-2012, 11:51 PM
When I get Dark Confidant, he will take the 2 Arena slots along with probably the 2 Deed slots (which will go to the sideboard.)

You know...I've been playing Rock in Modern, practically the same core, but I run x3 Grisly Salvage. This card is insane, and in a build that is missing Confidant I'd be interested to see what happens when you run it over the nearly strictly-worse-than-Bob Arena (yes they're different, "nearly", etc). Salvage does a few things and has high synergy especially for your list:

Face value: Fetch a needed creature or land.

Synergy:
1) Overload the graveyard with lands or card types for a swinging Goyf or KotR (the main benefit)
2) Combine with your Loam to quickly find either Loam or utility lands to loam back
3) Find targets quickly for your Volrath's Stronghold
4) Almost instantly hit Threshold to kick off Cabal Pit

It will dredge over Planeswalkers and other nonland/creature cards, but you still get some good use out of those cards with Goyf. If you chuck a Raven's Crime into there somewhere (sideboard?) then you can quickly establish the Loam-Crime discard engine.

If you bring Lingering Souls mainboard, then you get even more value out of Grisly Salvage since at x3-4 you almost certainly will 'dredge' one over, so you can get a creature and a few tokens.

Unfortunately it makes the deck more vulnerable to total-exile graveyard hate (RiP...though quickly refills the yard after removing the threat) but I think the overall benefit would be very intriguing. I haven't tested it myself yet in Legacy since I'm very happy with the base list in the limited time I've been playing it and haven't time or want to retool the deck, but the synergy I see with the Modern deck is very interesting.

damionblackgear
12-23-2012, 01:13 AM
I used to run Thrun in a hexproof Bant type list. Ended up cutting him because it was always better to just wait an extra turn to get Sigarda since Thrun doesn't win a game nearly as easily as Sigarda does.

You're talking about the difference between 4 and 5 (5-6 off GSZ). I know this may not seem like much but it does matter. It's not 1-2 or 2-3. Both of those are meant to be accomplished as most of our decks are geared to reach that amount of mana. 4-5 are late game as well as showing that no Knight activations have been made. Most importantly, "We are not Bant."


Thrun is going to catch Liliana's -2 and parishes all day long. Don't joke about the regenerate clause since I have never seen it help me. Plus the can't be countered line is useless when you find him through GSZ 4/5 times. Just wait till you start paying 4 mana for a card that is instantly outclassed by Tarmogoyf. I have and it loses you games.

Perish point is mute. Perish kills both and the Lili point is an issue for anything except Sigarda. Sigarda costing 1 more means that in some matches (and the others in some cases) that 1 additional mana means that ever Sigarda is on the "backfoot" (negatively). As the last thing here, only Sigarda can be countered if you draw her.

In the end I'll ask, "What's more likely to be faced, a Liliana or a counter?"

Thrun block Goyf all day it it becomes a matter of deciding if you can take the damage or you have to chump (in which case you're buying cards to deal with goyf). Thrun will typically be outclassed by Goyf. That will never be a question.

Goyf will never be able to regenerate without help. That's where I think you should reconsider your thought. Let's look at it another way, "What do 2 opposing goyf do?" The answer is simple, they stare at each other until one side is able to get help from something else. Without that something else, 2 Goyf will never be able to attack past each other.

So how does Thrun surpass this? Simple, Thrun can't be killed easily.

What about offensively? We should be able to deal with things that would block the path of our own threats. Sometimes, that is just an attack. Most of the time, we actually kill those things. So, if we're counting on killing things, why should it matter what we play? As long as it can't be countered (something Sigarda lacks) and have some durability, it shouldn't matter.


Garruk is better than Thrun no doubt.

I have doubts so you'll have to justify this in order for me to actually think it's more than an opinion.


Neither is all that good against a variety of decks though. You need threats that can be decent against Combo and Aggro and Control. KOTR can find wastelands to bomb tempo decks and keep ramp/control decks locked out of games. It can find karakas or Bog to stop show and tell/dredge/reanimator. It can out fight most aggro decks too. KOTR can go in a maindeck without hurting any matchup. Thrun can not.

So your point is that both are bad against decks that need a fast clock... Using Knight is irrelevant. 1) That's not the card we're thinking of replacing 2) It's filling a different roll.

If you're thinking of cutting a Knight, I'd advise that you look towards other options. Knight's amazing (although it isn't always the answer).


If I were to start digging for sideboard win conditions instead of hate my list for testing would have these: No-Pro (3/1), Phyrexian Arena, Lingering Souls, Garruk Relentless, Bloodgift Demon.

Souls makes Liliana and Jace weaker, laughs at abrupt decay, and combos well with your own Liliana. It's also a bad card maindeck against combo and super aggro.

Arena can simply out draw most midranged decks. With Library and Bob as well you would have a hard time being locked out due to an opposing Liliana, and even a Jace that sticks on an opponents side would have trouble burying you in card advantage. Abrupt decay and other 1-1's won't be enough to put you away.

Garruk Releantless is the same token strategy as Lingering Souls expect it's even better against Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, but worse against Liliana and Jace.

Never tried No-Pro in Rock but frankly it does wonders for me in Bant, although I do run counters to help seal the deal. Might be worth testing though.

I have no interest of a singleton (1 main & 1 board in my case). I am, however, a fan of testing and I think this is a great idea (testing). Test all of your ideas you meantioned, get back to us with what you think. Once or during that process, I encourage any/everyone to try it out as well. Compare the outcomes. We'll all improve on that. (Sidenote: Been drinking, I'm not editing)

sdematt
12-23-2012, 01:13 AM
I think the main things we have to be able to answer/do are the following:

1) How do you beat Miracles' infinite creature removal and possible Rest in Peace?

2) How do you deal with another decks' Deathrite Shamans and Abrupt Decays?

--> How do you deal with both of these and beat Jace in the long game?

We can usually get through the early to midgame, but sometimes we can falter in the late game, especially against an active Jace. Thus, we must run either answers to Jace or threats that don't care about either Abrupt Decay, Jace, or Terminus. Ideally, we'd have a shroud indestructible creature that's green and bigger than Goyf :P

I think there's definitely some sideboard slots to look at against each of these decks at the moment.

Lingering Souls: We're not bringing it in against any other deck besides Miracles and Control, so I suggest possibly running this card. The decks that are running Lingering Souls hate are not the decks we bring this in against, so this is a very good deal. This statement is a bit of a misnomer. Miracles will have "hate" for it, but against decks that run Plagues, we're not caring about that anyway.

Pithing Needle: My friend has been running this in his BUG board the past few months and has been loving it. He usually ends up Needling random stuff that pisses you off (if you needed to, Deathrite Shaman, but more for Top/Jace). Cutting off BUG's late-game Jace just turns that deck into a worse deck than ours by far. Shutting off Miracles' Top or Jace combined with Hymns and Gaddock Teegs is backbreaking for them.

Engineered Explosives: Again from the friend's BUG deck. It's overlapping hate for Tokens, Aggro, and Deathrite Shamans, assuming you don't have your own out.

All of these cards are 2-for-1's or virtual 2-for-1's and up.

I think we definitely want a Planeswalkers plan for Miracles as well as the Maverick still in the format as well as BUG. Compost might also be worth a test, in all honesty. The card is DAMN good if it lands and stays, otherwise it just eats an Abrupt Decay.

2 Pithing Needle (Top, Jace, etc.)
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge, Reanimator, Combo)
3 Hymn to Tourach (Miracles, BUG, Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Miracles)
2 Engineered Explosives (Souls tokens, tempo, Esper, Tribal, even Jace since we can EE at 4)
1 Scavenging Ooze (Dredge, Reanimator, BUG, Esperblade)
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Open (Elspeth, etc.)

But remember, what's our "ideal" anti-Miracles build? As in, we can't have more cards to bring in from the board than what we can remove from the main. What in our deck is strictly "bad" against Miracles? There's few TERRIBLE cards, but it's just determining the right mix of threats and answers to get them.

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-23-2012, 01:27 AM
River Boa? regenerates for one and is unblockable by miracles and bug. It would even help clog up the ground against non blue decks.

sdematt
12-23-2012, 02:01 AM
River Boa? regenerates for one and is unblockable by miracles and bug. It would even help clog up the ground against non blue decks.

Possibly, but I'm not sure if it provides enough pressure.

I'm thinking:

2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Elspeth/Garruk
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed/EE
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Open

The list provides a ton of game against Miracles (8 cards to bring in), and has relevancy in other matchups. The 2 Open slots could be Lingering Souls, but I doubt there's enough stuff for us to bring out to bring them in. I'm thinking these two slots could be Composts if the meta is very BUG/we lose enough. If you're running GSZ, Tracker is pretty nutty in the BUG matchup.

I'll try it out.

-Matt

Claymore
12-23-2012, 02:36 AM
Just spit-balling, but what about Cataclysm? It kills all planeswalkers and almost all lands. Miracles is very particular about their Jace and lands, going so far as to fetch their ~8-10 basics. Worst case it leaves them an active CounterTop with a Terminus on top, but you can choose stuff such as Goyf, KotR (who would get absolutely massive with all the lands), or Deathrite to go with a Sylvan Library. Not so good for your Liliana I guess, and it is counteracted by your own Gaddock Teeg.

Otherwise, judging from a skim of the Miracles thread they hate:

-Liliana
-Deed is annoying
-Wastelands on their mana

ZeinVoncy
12-23-2012, 08:06 AM
Thrun's older brother Troll Ascetic is also an option, a mana cheaper yet slightly weaker.
I have been using Sigarda, Host of Herons for awhile now. She's a decent S/B card for BUG, but for most other decks doesn't do well with the removal.
If we don't want to do Shaman battles all day, Ground Seal is an older card I've always appreciated.

Esper3k
12-23-2012, 10:33 AM
I haven't been a huge fan of Thrun against UW just because he's still another creature in a deck that's designed to wreck creatures.

Honestly, I've still just been a big fan of Choke. It's an enchantment, so tougher for them to remove, it constrains their mana, which makes it much more difficult for them to abuse their card advantage and continue to cast spells like Counterspell, and it attacks them from another non-creature angle that they have to deal with. Just my $0.02.

godofallu
12-23-2012, 12:47 PM
You're talking about the difference between 4 and 5 (5-6 off GSZ). I know this may not seem like much but it does matter. It's not 1-2 or 2-3. Both of those are meant to be accomplished as most of our decks are geared to reach that amount of mana. 4-5 are late game as well as showing that no Knight activations have been made. Most importantly, "We are not Bant."



Perish point is mute. Perish kills both and the Lili point is an issue for anything except Sigarda. Sigarda costing 1 more means that in some matches (and the others in some cases) that 1 additional mana means that ever Sigarda is on the "backfoot" (negatively). As the last thing here, only Sigarda can be countered if you draw her.

In the end I'll ask, "What's more likely to be faced, a Liliana or a counter?"

Thrun block Goyf all day it it becomes a matter of deciding if you can take the damage or you have to chump (in which case you're buying cards to deal with goyf). Thrun will typically be outclassed by Goyf. That will never be a question.

Goyf will never be able to regenerate without help. That's where I think you should reconsider your thought. Let's look at it another way, "What do 2 opposing goyf do?" The answer is simple, they stare at each other until one side is able to get help from something else. Without that something else, 2 Goyf will never be able to attack past each other.

So how does Thrun surpass this? Simple, Thrun can't be killed easily.

What about offensively? We should be able to deal with things that would block the path of our own threats. Sometimes, that is just an attack. Most of the time, we actually kill those things. So, if we're counting on killing things, why should it matter what we play? As long as it can't be countered (something Sigarda lacks) and have some durability, it shouldn't matter.



I have doubts so you'll have to justify this in order for me to actually think it's more than an opinion.



So your point is that both are bad against decks that need a fast clock... Using Knight is irrelevant. 1) That's not the card we're thinking of replacing 2) It's filling a different roll.

If you're thinking of cutting a Knight, I'd advise that you look towards other options. Knight's amazing (although it isn't always the answer).



I have no interest of a singleton (1 main & 1 board in my case). I am, however, a fan of testing and I think this is a great idea (testing). Test all of your ideas you meantioned, get back to us with what you think. Once or during that process, I encourage any/everyone to try it out as well. Compare the outcomes. We'll all improve on that. (Sidenote: Been drinking, I'm not editing)

Honestly if the points I allready made for why I found Thrun to be bad in testing didn't sway you at all then maybe you should just run the card yourself. Oh and Bant runs 23 lands with 4 mana dorks, which is the exact same as Rock. In fact Rock runs more card draw so it usually has access to even more lands/mana.

I have no intentions of cutting KOTR, I was using it as an example of a perfect threat. One that is good in every matchup. In comparison to Thrun which ranges from good to terrible.

A Liliana is more likely against BUG then a counter is. A GSZ for Thrun (which can be countered) is more likely than casting him from hand. In the Tarmogoyf war the extra Thrun is inferior to another Tarmogoyf, a Garruk, a Liliana, a KOTR, an Arena... basically everything. Hopefully you kind of understand some of my points now.

@Matt So what would be the 8 cards you would takeout and bring in with that sideboard against Miracles/Bug?

As to the Souls maindeck I have gone back and forth from that route over and over again. Bitter Blossom, Souls, Sorin, Lily, Jitte all together make a super grindy deck that is very good against BUG/Miracles but has absolutely no chance against combo or super aggro. I don't think a true mix is possible since the tokens are underwhelming without some type of support. I doubt Sorin on his own could make Souls scary enough and equipment sucks against Abrupt Decay and sideboard ancient grudge/disenchant + snapcaster. You can check my sig for a list of both versions if you're interested.

I like Garruk Releantless more then any other options people have tried against BUG/Miracles in the usual Rock Frame, same goes for Maelstrom pulse.

Fakedylan
12-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Got 4th at my local shop for GPT Denver. Near the end of the night I was pretty well burnt out and made quite a few play mistakes. Overall though I feel like I played the deck quite well specially since I'm more of a RUG player and have novice experience when it comes to The Rock (junk).

http://www.crossroadgames.net/gpt-denver-legacy-top-8-decklists/

Thats a link to the top 8 decklist, there's also a video of one of my matches on the live stream. Some of the mistakes I make are quite funny and obvious but as I said I was quite tired by the time we went into the top 8.

Played a total of 7 matches.

BUG Delver - Lose 1-2
Dredge - Win 2-1
Elves - Win 2-1
RUG Delver - Win 2-0
BUG - ID we played out the match but both decided to draw before hand to make sure we both made it into the top8. He ended up sweeping the game we played so that worked out well.
Semifinals BUG - 2-0 This was the match caught on camera.
Quater finals BUG - 2-0 Got into the topdeck mode both games but he kept recovering and just locking the game out with Jace.

damionblackgear
12-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Honestly if the points I allready made for why I found Thrun to be bad in testing didn't sway you at all then maybe you should just run the card yourself. Oh and Bant runs 23 lands with 4 mana dorks, which is the exact same as Rock. In fact Rock runs more card draw so it usually has access to even more lands/mana.

I have no intentions of cutting KOTR, I was using it as an example of a perfect threat. One that is good in every matchup. In comparison to Thrun which ranges from good to terrible.

A Liliana is more likely against BUG then a counter is. A GSZ for Thrun (which can be countered) is more likely than casting him from hand. In the Tarmogoyf war the extra Thrun is inferior to another Tarmogoyf, a Garruk, a Liliana, a KOTR, an Arena... basically everything. Hopefully you kind of understand some of my points now.

Sure, I'll bite.


I used to run Thrun in a hexproof Bant type list.

Testing in another deck, regardless of the comparisons, is not testing in this deck. Thrun in Bant is different than Thrun in Rock. The purpose and ways to take advantage of are almost completely unique to each deck. Test it in Rock and I'll be able to consider your testing valid to The Rock.

I mentioned Knight as being cut because that's were you went to making comparisons. That in it's self leaves me to think that you're considering cutting knight (Mind you, I also advised against that exchange). If it's not replacing Knight, why is it being compared? I was confused why it was not being compared to the card it'd actually replace as opposed to one it'll be alongside. When you do that, you might as well pick something like forest and start comparing there.

As far as Thrun being a "perfect threat", it's not. The best part about that is that nothing is (not even Knight). That's the point of magic being versatile. Everything has ways to be answered. The point of Thrun is to open an avenue of attack that we typically do not have (self-protected threat). Thrun isn't always the ideal threat, but by no means is it terrible as a threat in general. Or, are you insisting that by not being the largest creature with a relevant ability(s) to the match on the battlefield it's terrible?

If that is what you're looking for, I would advise you to try something like Reanimator as they will always have a "Perfect Threat" (if you do, can you also move to my meta? I like byes).

Liliana is possible from Bug, not Miracles though (at least no list I've seen). Between the two (which are my main reasons to advocate Thrun), Counters are more likely than Liliana. Adjusting to make it one deck instead of two does skew the truth a little. When you start looking at an overall meta as well there is more targeted removal and counters than there are Liliana.

Gofy vs Goyf is a staring competition (Someone has to flinch). When you add more Goyf to the table than the other person, you can typically make that a win. Thrun operates as a Goyf in that fight. What do 2 Goyf do in combat? They bounce off of each other. What do Goyf do when running into Thrun? They bounce back. Granted, you'll have to regenerate Thrun, but the same result is achieved. What happens if you attack with Goyf + Thrun into Goyf? You deal damage to the opponent. Again, same result (regen needed). You may deal a little less damage but not by much (as goyf is typically a 5/6 and 5-4=1).

Preferences aside, it seems as though you're against Thrun due to your experiences with trying it in another deck. May I remind you, the deck you're comparing to is using AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT COLOR (I can bold what I think are important points as well :wink:). Perhaps you should try it in this deck instead of thinking that the logic for that deck applies to this one. Also, the format may be different than what you originally tested in.

Fakedylan
12-23-2012, 07:34 PM
I'm all for running Thrun as a one of in my Junk list. The above post points out most of the reasons why. The biggest one for myself though is he can kill Jace, that card wrecks my deck if it stays on the table too long.

godofallu
12-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Sure, I'll bite.



Testing in another deck, regardless of the comparisons, is not testing in this deck. Thrun in Bant is different than Thrun in Rock. The purpose and ways to take advantage of are almost completely unique to each deck. Test it in Rock and I'll be able to consider your testing valid to The Rock.

I mentioned Knight as being cut because that's were you went to making comparisons. That in it's self leaves me to think that you're considering cutting knight (Mind you, I also advised against that exchange). If it's not replacing Knight, why is it being compared? I was confused why it was not being compared to the card it'd actually replace as opposed to one it'll be alongside. When you do that, you might as well pick something like forest and start comparing there.

As far as Thrun being a "perfect threat", it's not. The best part about that is that nothing is (not even Knight). That's the point of magic being versatile. Everything has ways to be answered. The point of Thrun is to open an avenue of attack that we typically do not have (self-protected threat). Thrun isn't always the ideal threat, but by no means is it terrible as a threat in general. Or, are you insisting that by not being the largest creature with a relevant ability(s) to the match on the battlefield it's terrible?

If that is what you're looking for, I would advise you to try something like Reanimator as they will always have a "Perfect Threat" (if you do, can you also move to my meta? I like byes).

Liliana is possible from Bug, not Miracles though (at least no list I've seen). Between the two (which are my main reasons to advocate Thrun), Counters are more likely than Liliana. Adjusting to make it one deck instead of two does skew the truth a little. When you start looking at an overall meta as well there is more targeted removal and counters than there are Liliana.

Gofy vs Goyf is a staring competition (Someone has to flinch). When you add more Goyf to the table than the other person, you can typically make that a win. Thrun operates as a Goyf in that fight. What do 2 Goyf do in combat? They bounce off of each other. What do Goyf do when running into Thrun? They bounce back. Granted, you'll have to regenerate Thrun, but the same result is achieved. What happens if you attack with Goyf + Thrun into Goyf? You deal damage to the opponent. Again, same result (regen needed). You may deal a little less damage but not by much (as goyf is typically a 5/6 and 5-4=1).

Preferences aside, it seems as though you're against Thrun due to your experiences with trying it in another deck. May I remind you, the deck you're comparing to is using AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT COLOR (I can bold what I think are important points as well :wink:). Perhaps you should try it in this deck instead of thinking that the logic for that deck applies to this one. Also, the format may be different than what you originally tested in.

I'm just trying to say that when playing against common decks in the legacy field, especially the decks I thought it would have been great against, I was always underwhelmed with Thrun.

You can say the presence of blue for Jace and brainstorm completely changes the deck type, even if it's still a midranged KOTR deck, but the decks I played against and Thrun himself haven't changed.

So are you stating that Thrun has been great for you? Or are you just misreading and misinterpreting everything I said because you like to post while drunk. I found Thrun to be bad against the field, and definitely not worth a slot. That's the point I was trying to make.

sdematt
12-23-2012, 08:51 PM
Against Miracles you're bringing out 4 STP, 3 IoK, and 1 Ulvenwald Tracker, and bringing in (according to my board) 2 Teeg, 3 Hymn, 1 Elspeth/Garruk, 2 Pithing Needle.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-23-2012, 10:03 PM
Thrun would be exclusively SB tech for me. The fact he is guaranteed to hit and sticks around means your early discard can be aimed at Lilianas, Jaces and the like. He would be my trump against miracles, and merely would have the added bonus of being relevant against other matches.

That said, I like Needle. In D&T, we had Phyrexian Revoker, and it was my favorite creature in the deck most games. Being able to shut down a critical permanent (Top, Jace, Deed, Mom, Vial, etc.) for one mana is very powerful. Many legacy decks seem to have so few actual win cons. Miracles being enemy no. 1 right now, Jace and Entreat are their only actual means of securing a win. I just need to find room in my SB.

Similarly, I'd like to find room for choke again. Somehow.

sdematt
12-23-2012, 10:46 PM
Thrun would be exclusively SB tech for me. The fact he is guaranteed to hit and sticks around means your early discard can be aimed at Lilianas, Jaces and the like. He would be my trump against miracles, and merely would have the added bonus of being relevant against other matches.

That said, I like Needle. In D&T, we had Phyrexian Revoker, and it was my favorite creature in the deck most games. Being able to shut down a critical permanent (Top, Jace, Deed, Mom, Vial, etc.) for one mana is very powerful. Many legacy decks seem to have so few actual win cons. Miracles being enemy no. 1 right now, Jace and Entreat are their only actual means of securing a win. I just need to find room in my SB.

Similarly, I'd like to find room for choke again. Somehow.


Just run a 75-card sideboard :P

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-23-2012, 11:38 PM
Just run a 75-card sideboard :P

-Matt

In all seriousness, that's why I love Junk. The entire deck feels like a sideboard built to hate out everything (save maybe Miracles, but even then I think I just need more practice against it.)

Esper3k
12-23-2012, 11:45 PM
Here's a Junk list I've been rocking for awhile and been having a lot of fun with:

// Lands
1 [SOM] Plains (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
2 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [M13] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [COM] Lightning Greaves
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [M13] Duress
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate

With RIP and now all the Deathrite Shaman / Abrupt Decays running around, I've been less and less impressed with Tarmogoyfs. I also wanted to have a stronger matchup against the control decks (especially UW), thus I'm running the Stoneforge package and Lingering Souls. The Maelstrom Pulse over 4th StP main is again because of dealing with Planeswalkers and likewise the 4/2 split of Thoughtseize over IoK. With Batterskull / Jitte, Bob/Thoughtseize/Sylvan Library also hurt much less than in the non-SFM packages.

Sideboardwise against UW, I actually board:

-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Deathrite Shaman
+2 Choke
+2 Extirpate
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Lightning Greeves
+2 Duress

If they're running SFM package, I'd change it up to +1 Duress / +1 Tower.

I actually like Extirpate quite a bit against UW because they are so dependent upon StP / Jace / Terminus that Extirpating any of those severely cripples their deck. Extirpate in a corner case can also be used in response to a pop Top activation to shuffle up their deck and prevent them from popping into a Terminus on your turn.

Claymore
12-23-2012, 11:49 PM
Along the lines of Choke, just want to point out that Raking Canopy is an efficient answer to most of Miracle's win conditions (Entreat obviously as well as random Vendilion Cliques). I'm not sure if it has further answers against the meta aside from Lingeringsouls.dec however.

With stuff like Pithing Needle, Choke, Canopy...is an Enlightened Tutor sideboard a viable option? I know DnT sometimes runs this option

Barbed Blightning
12-24-2012, 12:02 AM
Along the lines of Choke, just want to point out that Raking Canopy is an efficient answer to most of Miracle's win conditions (Entreat obviously as well as random Vendilion Cliques). I'm not sure if it has further answers against the meta aside from Lingeringsouls.dec however.

With stuff like Pithing Needle, Choke, Canopy...is an Enlightened Tutor sideboard a viable option? I know DnT sometimes runs this option

I see you're a former Rector-Fit player after all. :wink:

E Tutor has always been debatable in D&T circles, primarily because it eats up 3-4 slots to be useful, can cause counterspells to two-for-one, constrains your draws, etc. etc. That said, as GSZ shows, virtual copies are powerful.

Esper3k
12-24-2012, 12:11 AM
Along the lines of Choke, just want to point out that Raking Canopy is an efficient answer to most of Miracle's win conditions (Entreat obviously as well as random Vendilion Cliques). I'm not sure if it has further answers against the meta aside from Lingeringsouls.dec however.

With stuff like Pithing Needle, Choke, Canopy...is an Enlightened Tutor sideboard a viable option? I know DnT sometimes runs this option

Neat card - definitely wrecks most of their win conditions if they're not playing the SFM builds. I like Choke a little more just because it also has application for the BUG control decks and slower heavy blue combo decks like High Tide or Show & Tell decks (where we have so many bad cards against them).

I used to run an eTutor board but was finding that I was really only using the eTutors for the combo matchups since vs decks with countermagic, eTutor is rough due to the card disadvantage we generate. Normally against the fast aggro decks like Goblins, eTutor would be fine but I find that we have so much removal right now (especially if you're playing Jitte), eTutor isn't really needed. Since I was only bringing it in vs combo, I decided for now to have a more generalized sideboard that could be applicable vs more decks (but of course no haymaker silver bullets like what the eTutor board gets you).

damionblackgear
12-24-2012, 01:42 AM
I'm just trying to say that when playing against common decks in the legacy field, especially the decks I thought it would have been great against, I was always underwhelmed with Thrun.

You can say the presence of blue for Jace and brainstorm completely changes the deck type, even if it's still a midranged KOTR deck, but the decks I played against and Thrun himself haven't changed.

True. Those decks don't change. They will continue to be the same 75-ish cards. It's the way they interact and the things they consider threats that changes from match to match. If we could considered everything deck the same as the others in it's type, we'd be able to adjust to everything with ease and never have to adapt when something new came out. We could just use the tech for it's type to solve the problem.

Anywho, that 'required adjustment' is why you don't test your theory cards in other decks. You test them in the deck(s) you're planning on playing them in and trying not to mixing the results as best you can. This becomes especially important when you're talking about sideboard cards. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't sideboard my against Bant the same way you sideboard against another Rock deck. Why do you expect the other decks to?


So are you stating that Thrun has been great for you? Or are you just misreading and misinterpreting everything I said because you like to post while drunk. I found Thrun to be bad against the field, and definitely not worth a slot. That's the point I was trying to make.

I'm going to ignore the quick jab at me for posting after going out. I'm assuming you're not old enough too, due to your comment so I'd just like to try and pass on some knowledge that usually takes people a while to learn, "Just because you go out drinking doesn't mean you have to get drunk." I'm just super lazy, so any excuse to get around editing works for me.

I have read your comments. Summary? You got burned by Thrun in Bant and think that translates to Rock and every other mid-ranged deck that plays Knight and some form of accelerate. Also, Every Rock deck plays 4 Bird-like creatures and knight. - You've basically created your own stereotype for the idea of two decks.

Back on topic.

I'm stating that Thrun Looks better that Garruk to me. I haven't tried Thrun recently.


I actually think Thrun would be a better call than Garruk.

Even though he didn't work out for you, I'm going to be testing him shortly. Again, 1 main + 1 board. I already have the room as my test list from this last tournament had Garruk on those slots. I'll let anyone who want's to know. It'll probably be after Denver.

Mr. Safety
12-24-2012, 08:21 AM
You know...I've been playing Rock in Modern, practically the same core, but I run x3 Grisly Salvage. This card is insane, and in a build that is missing Confidant I'd be interested to see what happens when you run it over the nearly strictly-worse-than-Bob Arena (yes they're different, "nearly", etc). Salvage does a few things and has high synergy especially for your list:

Face value: Fetch a needed creature or land.

Synergy:
1) Overload the graveyard with lands or card types for a swinging Goyf or KotR (the main benefit)
2) Combine with your Loam to quickly find either Loam or utility lands to loam back
3) Find targets quickly for your Volrath's Stronghold
4) Almost instantly hit Threshold to kick off Cabal Pit

It will dredge over Planeswalkers and other nonland/creature cards, but you still get some good use out of those cards with Goyf. If you chuck a Raven's Crime into there somewhere (sideboard?) then you can quickly establish the Loam-Crime discard engine.

If you bring Lingering Souls mainboard, then you get even more value out of Grisly Salvage since at x3-4 you almost certainly will 'dredge' one over, so you can get a creature and a few tokens.

Unfortunately it makes the deck more vulnerable to total-exile graveyard hate (RiP...though quickly refills the yard after removing the threat) but I think the overall benefit would be very intriguing. I haven't tested it myself yet in Legacy since I'm very happy with the base list in the limited time I've been playing it and haven't time or want to retool the deck, but the synergy I see with the Modern deck is very interesting.

I've tried Grisly Salvage...it creates a situation where you'd rather be playing B/g Loam-Pox. Once you utilize the graveyard that much, getting to full consistency with 4x Loam becomes better. Then comes Bloodghast, Smallpox, Raven's Crime, maybe even Worm Harvest. I found it split the deck in too many directions. I've done Loam-Rock several times with multiple Raven's Crime/Loam, and it CAN work...but Delver and Show and Tell both outclass it, for the most part. It's a grind-control deck in a format where the control is much faster, and better (Miracles, tempo decks, BUG)

Grisly Salvage is good in modern because of two reasons:

1) General lack of graveyard-based decks, therefore most decks aren't playing hoser cards but rather targeted removal like Extirpate and Surgical Extraction. You can play through those just fine.

2) It's a fantastic cantrip in Modern where the better dig cards cost more than one mana (Thirst for Knowledge, Forbidden Alchemy, Compulsive Research, Gifts Ungiven.) The lack of Wasteland, good countermagic, and a general lack of grave hate all make it good.

For legacy? It's just not good enough. Library outshines it by about a million and a half. I also feel that whatever sort of graveyard synergy ends up into my yard will get killed by opposing Shamans. Shamans are everywhere these days, you can't just take into account your own Shamans. You need to view the metagame in light of EVERYBODY using Shaman. Most decks aren't using Shaman with Scryb Ranger (don't know why...) but it helps you outclass opposing once-a-turn shaman activations. Imagine if you had a creature that would let you activate Liliana or Garruk twice in a turn, but isn't bad like Rings of Brighthearth? Shaman is a one-mana planeswalker, and doubling up is good.

sdematt
12-25-2012, 02:14 AM
It's Christmas, so I'll post the rough draft (as in, the FIRST draft) of my second article in here for all to view. Constructive comments are suggested since this was literally written in one go. I won't normally do this, but since it's Christmas and my editor is on vacation, it might mean we would not get a chance to discuss this before Denver. Enjoy...and Merry Christmas to all!








"Welcome back to this edition of Talking Shop. Today’s article will continue where the previous article left off regarding the sideboarding in Junk and the reasoning behind my choices used in the StarCityGames Seattle tournament. Since the first Grand Prix of 2013 is a Legacy Grand Prix in Denver, Colorado, USA, I will explore some of the possible sideboard choices not only for Junk, but also as a general metagame analysis.

Sideboard Materials

After the mainboard choices explained in the previous article (a link here: ) comes the sideboard. This again looks like another mish-mash of three copies here, two copies there. Remember, Junk is trying to fight a game against Combo of some kind, Graveyard-based strategies, Miracles, Maverick, RUG, and some BUG at the time of this tournament in mid-November 2012. Junk has the advantage of having a very even game against many decks in the format postboard due to the varying types and amounts of disruption, removal, and pressure, meaning the sideboard has to just shore up certain matchups to a greater extent. Few matchups are very lopsided when playing Junk.

First, we need to hate out graveyard based strategies if they are a concern in your metagame. In a large tournament, a player can always expect to run into a few graveyard based decks such as Reanimator, Dredge, or some other graveyard-based deck. Not everyone thinks Dredge is a problem, but I knew the Seattle metagame is always ripe with graveyard based strategies and combo due to having played in the area several times previous to this tournament. Since Junk is in Black, White, and Green, we have some answers to graveyard strategies. Junk is already running Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze in the main at this point in time, so we have three to five mainboard semi-graveyard hate slots, since at the very minimum, instants, sorceries, and creatures can be removed. I usually like to run at least three more in the board, since I think it is a matchup that Junk can easily win by running a few additional pieces of hate in the sideboard. My favourite here was Surgical Extraction since it also has applications in the Combo matchups which I will talk about later. If one expected a ton of 43 Lands or a counter heavy strategy, I would suggest Extirpate just to avoid awkwardness with cycling lands allow Dredge triggers (which will fizzle your Surgical Extrations) or Counterspells. Junk is so heavy in black that the two life compared to. A single black mana isn’t too much of a concern, especially with the addition of Deathrite Shaman. I opted for Surgical Extraction because against Combo you do not have time to get the correct or appropriate amounts of mana due to the speed of some combo decks, like TES.

The second major archetype you can expect in a major tournament is Combo. You cannot ignore this pivotal archetype, whether it’s Elves Combo, OmniTell, Sneak and Show, or even High Tide. Again, I wanted cards to overlap in usefulness so I could cover as many bases as possible. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is very good against any combo requiring many pieces to go off, like ANT, TES, Sneak Attack to some extent, OmniTell, and others. Thalia doesn’t shine as much against High Tide, Elves, and other esoteric combo decks. Many of these decks either run bounce or have excessive amounts of mana, or bounce effects. Thalia is also decent against everything else due to its taxing effects, but is also good against Junk in this current iteration. Yes, it is true. Junk is a deck of approximately fifteen creatures and the answer cards are mostly spells. Thalia hinders Junk to some extent, but in the matchups where Junk cares the most, it should hinder the opponent more than you. Plus, it does not do a ton of work against Miracles since they can pay the Thalia tax effect and still force through a Terminus. To cover this, I have dusted off my old friends: Hymn to Tourach and Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg nicely shuts down Omni Tell, Miracles, TES to some extent, and does work against High Tide. Hymn hits Miracles hard and nicely paves the way for Surgical Extraction if need be, as well as being good against Combo and random decks running high converted mana cost bombs. Hymn hasn’t been good for the past little bit since fetching double duals into Turn-2 Hymn was dangerous because of Daze and Wasteland, as well as the redundancy Maverick had meant Hymn hit two cards, but they didn’t care as much as you hoped. Hymn against Miracles is pretty good, hitting either lands or removal or bombs. Gaddock Teeg absolutely ruins Miracles. They MUST dig for Swords to Plowshares or Karakas to remove him. In the meantime, you can attempt to apply pressure with large creatures. I would run a playset if I could, but if you are a Maverick player, consider at least two or three in your 75 so you can start beating Miracles. It’s a simple addition that goes a long way.

Next, we must hate out aggro decks in some fashion. RUG Delver is not our best matchup, but luckily, RUG is losing popularity due to the riding of the Aggro BUG archetype. In fact, out of the big three, I’d rather face Miracles and Maverick than RUG. RUG just has so many counters and mana denial, it is just frustrating. In this matchup, with Deathrite being a nice fixer, you can run Hymn to help batter them, as well as Timely Reinforcements. If Timely resolves, you negate about three or four cards, which is huge since they have a lot of reach in the burn spells that they play. The main problem is getting your answers cards and even just your threats to resolve. If you expect a bunch of Burn or UR Delver, I’d say run Timely Reinforcements as a good counter to their strategy. However, the RUG strategy in Legacy is waning, and I do not want to board cards but a matchup that I am very doubtful to see, especially in Denver. I felt like Timely Reinforcements this was the weakest card in the board all day at SCG Seattle since I never used it but it is one of the best at what it is doing. I think running another piece of removal or something else would be fine, but I also wanted an out to straight Mono Red Burn. Pernicious Deed is our other out to aggro decks. Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins hate to see Deed, as does Affinity, Dredge, and Enchantress, to name a few. It does a ton of work against a ton of decks, and it’s one of the reasons to run a BWG deck. Engineered Explosives is also an option as of late with the resurrection of Esper Stoneblade to combat Miracles via Lingering Souls and Equipment.

My cards to board for Maverick used to be Dread of Night, but I didn’t need it anymore since Lingering Souls went by the wayside at the time of the tournament. Virtue’s Ruin, aside from Pernicious Deed, is the best answer I’ve found to Maverick. It kills all the cards you card about: Knight, Qasali, Linvala, Thalia, Mom, Aven Mindcensor (if it was necessary...), Stoneforge Mystic, etc. while leaving the creatures that you can deal with easily, like Noble, Ooze, Scryb Ranger, etc. Virtue’s Ruin only kills your Knight, whereas Perish kills most of your guys while killing few of Maverick’s relevant threats. Perish is nice to have against Elves, but Virtue’s Ruin does my work against Maverick, doesn’t kill you, and has game against Death and Taxes should you encounter it (more on this later). Ulvenwald Tracker is also here for the creature matchups along with the Garruk Relentless. Tracker tilts creature combat in your favour, and with Deathtouch Wolf tokens, can get very interesting. If you do not believe he is that good, you are exactly the way I was until I saw him in combat. When he is good, he is very good, even if you do not have a Garruk, Veil-Cursed online. Having “two” Knights in combat is pretty great, especially when you can use it as an opening to use instant speed removal against Mother of Runes. The Garruk Relentless is not only there for Maverick, but is also there for the other control matchups, such as Esperblade and Miracles where you want tokens or just a bit of extra control in the mid and long game.

The main point I wanted to get across was that a good sideboard can only be built after much testing is done against relevant matchups you expect to face. Many people pre-emptively build a sideboard without much testing only to discover weaknesses in this strategy. A player must anticipate matchups that can be expected in the tournament they are playing in and should ideally tune between two different tournaments. My sideboard for my local weekly Legacy tournaments cannot be the same as the sideboard I take to a large 250-man event just due to statistics. In a large tournament, one can assess if it is worth running two cards in the sideboard for a matchups. The questions that must be asked are: 1) Do I expect to see this matchup enough to warrant the inclusion of answers in the sideboard, and 2) Are the cards that I have in the sideboard for that matchup relevant enough to the matchup to make a significant impact?

One may fear Mono-Red Burn as a Junk deck, and this is perfectly normal as it is one of the few hard matchups for the Junk player since there is very little creature based interaction. If two cards are used in the sideboard, they may not be enough to actually sway the matchup. Maybe seven cards are needed to actually turn the matchup around, but at that point, is the benefit worth the cost? In a local Legacy weekly, this might be true. You may know that you always face Burn in the finals and lose due to your under preparation. But, in a large tournament, you must weigh the likelihood of facing the matchup with the limited sideboard space you have available to you. If you know you are likely to encounter TES in a large 200-man tournament, but the three sideboard slots you have left will not be adequate, it may be wise to shore up other matchups instead of wasting your precious space on a matchup that may be dreadful for you. This is not to say we should throw away matchups, but try to find cards that overlap in multiple matchups to maximize the usability of the cards in your sideboard, unless you need specific hate for a specific deck which you plan to face often. In my case, Timely Reinforcements should have been more Combo or Miracles hate, since the two Timely Reinforcements tend not to sway the Burn matchups as much as I had hoped, since the likelihood of seeing a copy in a game isn’t as much as I would like.

Now that we are all a bit more aware of how to make sure our sideboard is constructed specifically for the event in which we enter, the current state of Legacy should be discussed regarding large tournaments in preparation for Denver.

The Boogeymen of Denver and (Christmas) Miracles

As of December 2012, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay have attracted the attention of BUG players throughout the Legacy scenes across the globe. Combining card draw and manipulation with a very solid creature and uncounterable removal has led to the creation of a very consistent Black, Green, Blue deck. Miracles is still fighting back to counter this threat to its Counterbalance-based dominance, Esperblade is seeing a resurrection to combat Terminus with Lingering Souls, while Maverick lies dormant in a shallow grave of Termini and Abrupt Decays. To be blunt, the expected boogeymen of GP Denver in January 2013 should be BUG Midrange and Aggro, different Miracles brews, Esperblade, Goblins, and Combo in some form.

BUG

The new kid on the block is BUG midrange and Aggro (previously known as Team America). These decks are coupling hand disruption, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and Brainstorm to achieve great consistency with cards of excellent value. This has been a very good combination so far. In fact, BUG has pretty much pushed RUG out of the format at this point in time due to the uncounterable removal and life gain. RUG has a hard time keeping up unless it runs at least eight burn spells to combat Deathrite Shamans. So, BUG must be explored to see where its weaknesses lie in order to properly attack those weaknesses. Reid Duke’s BUG midrange deck is what I feel is the best iteration of BUG at this point in time. It’s got some nice early pressure with discard along with many threats that must be answered. It runs Dark Confidant, Jace, Brainstorm, AND Ponder to find cards. This is more than most decks in the format. This deck is going to find its Abrupt Decays and Deathrite Shamans while disrupting your hand and beating your deck down with Tarmogoyfs. However, this deck does have weaknesses.

First, it only has four Abrupt Decays and no other removal spells. Which threats does a BUG deck answer with Abrupt Decay compared to leaving in play? BUG cannot remove a four-CMC permanent and up but does break up Counterbalances well. If you can overload BUG on must-answer permanents, you break up their plan. Their long game consists of Jace and Deathrite Shaman, so if a Junk deck can deal with Jace, then we can conquer them with superiour threats. Their Deathrite Shamans can get tied up in webs of Deathrite Shaman wars (where Shaman targets are removed by other Shamans in response to activations of abilities). A good way to answer Jace in the long game is a way to disable Jace. Pithing Needle is an answer, as is Maelstrom Pulse or Vindicate. Lingering Souls can get around their few creatures, of which most do not fly to ping away at their Planeswalkers to prevent long term leverage.

Second, the deck has an atrocious manabase. The manabase has gotten better over the past weeks especially in midrange builds such as Reid Duke’s, but the aggro versions running Delver of Secrets play zero basic lands, which means explosive, but not consistent, development. To fight against this greedy manabase, this is the perfect time for Blood Moon to make a splash on the Legacy scene. Remember what I said in the last article: never lose to Blood Moon. You do not need to, nor should you ever lose to that card if you prepare your deck’s manabase correctly. Blood Moon is not a good card in itself, but is only good by virtue of the fact it punishes greedy manabases. An astute Miracles player should be running Blood Moons in their sideboard for Denver. The fact is not that it is unexpected, but most people do not care to prepare even if the card is a possibility in the format. Blood Moon crushes BUG’s manabase while not affecting Miracles’ at all. The red splash is already common and powerful due to the inclusion of Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast, as well as using Engineered Explosives on three. Whether or not you are a Junk player, BUG player, or a Miracles player, you should be running this card and/or preparing for it. BUG can play around Blood Moon by always floating Abrupt Decay mana, or having multiple Deathrite Shamans up to create mana. This is a legitimate option, but when I was testing Blood Moon against BUG, BUG had to play very carefully and slowly to avoid getting Blood Mooned out of the game. While I was on BUG trying to pressure and keep Blood Moon off the table, the Miracles player gained advantage by my playing around Blood Moon, much like a RUG player could gain advantage against an opponent playing around Daze.

Prepare for Blood Moon by running basics lands and fetching them in matchups where it is relevant. Basic lands also help against Wasteland, which I recall being a relevant card in format.

ESPERBLADE

The resurgence in Esperblade rests solely on the phantasmal shoulders of Lingering Souls and Equipment. Esperblade hasn’t been a real deck in a long time due to the fact Miracles just pummeled certain decks so much harder than Esperblade did, and Lingering Souls became hated out. Dread of Night shut down both Maverick and Lingering Souls tokens, and the rest of the deck became very subpar because of this. Now that Miracles is top tier, Souls tokens can be used to fight Terminus and so far, the deck been doing an alright job at doing just that.

To the prospective BUG and Junk players, we should not be terribly worried about this matchup. The Souls tokens can be dealt with via Golgari Charm, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Maelstrom Pulse, etc. The Miracles players may have a tougher time hating them out, which could lead to a divide between a UWb and UWr Miracles split. Black Miracles could run Dread of Night or Engineered Plague (which also hates out another bad matchup, Goblins) to combat Souls while running some discard to take care of the more awkward Combo matchups. The Black Splash is definitely better against Souls and Goblins due to the inclusion of Plague, but the Red Splash also has access to Sulfur Elemental. Sulfur Elemental is much more limited in its hate to Souls tokens and Maverick, but the side benefits of Red, including Pyroblast and Blood Moon, making Red Miracles a more likely choice for GP Denver, and honestly, the one players should be fearing most.

GOBLINS

As much as it seems like a misnomer, a creature deck can be a good matchup if one expects to see Miracles in the room. Goblins, the premiere aggro deck in the format in my opinion due to its speed and consistency has a good matchup against Miracles due to this simple fact: it plays tons of creatures and constantly spits them out. Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls ensure some Goblins cannot be countered, and many of those Goblins create advantages for subsequent Goblins that hit the field. The most important of these are Goblin Warchief, Goblin Ringleader, and Goblin Matron. Warchief makes other Goblins cost less, and along with Haste effects, means opponents can face down many more attacking Goblins than they expect in a given turn. Goblin Ringleader clears out chaff at the top of the deck, ensuring more Goblins are drawn later, or draws one to four Goblins immediately, allowing a hand refill after a sweeper effect. Most decks struggle to recover from a Terminus or Supreme Verdict, but a Goblin Matron searching for Ringleader or a naturally casted Goblin Ringleader can Ancestral Recall the Goblins player into a very advantageous position and possibly negate the sweeper effect that just happened. Miracles only plays three Terminus and possibly a Supreme Verdict and/or an Engineered Explosives. Goblins can run headlong into these spells and recover, putting Miracles into an awkward position. This is why Miracles’ sideboard includes more sweepers, as well as a Moat if cost isn’t as much of an issue.

Goblins does suffer from hate, though. Engineered Plague really hurts Goblins since they have few permanent pump effects and the fact that Plague may become common as people start to run hate against Lingering Souls tokens. Goblins will be a better deck is the Red Splash Miracles deck stays popular in the GP. BUG should not have much of an issue with Goblins since most decks are running three Engineered Plague, along with the maindeck Abrupt Decays. Junk can also run Plague if deemed necessary, but Deed, Golgari Charm, and Engineered Explosives can also work. In my opinion, I feel like most decks are going to be running Engineered Plague to combat Lingering Souls, and the number of Goblins will be adversely affected by this splash hate, further making Miracles a good choice in the tournament.

COMBO

I will only talk about this briefly because this archetype is both favoured and hated at the same time in the current metagame. Most BUG decks at the moment are running few, if any, counterspells mainboard, and are instead relying on sideboard Force of Wills to save them. Dusting off old Combo decks might be an attractive proposition, since it is possible to win many game one’s and then sideboard well to win game two.

In contrast to this format openness, Miracles is still running Counterbalance and Top, which is one of the worst things a Storm-Combo player can run in to. This combo is not unbeatable, especially since Abrupt Decay is making an appearance in many sideboards and Miracles is a glacially slow Control deck, but it should be noted that Combo is not totally free to do its bidding upon the format. Goblin Charbelcher decks, in my opinion, seem very well positioned due to the current adage of three maindeck Force of Will in Control decks and zero Force of Wills in some BUG lists. Charbelcher combo allows you to combo off prior to Counterbalance lock being achieved (ideally) while simultaneously running into the lowest amount of Force of Wills in the format in a long time. If you are running a blue deck, make sure your sideboard has some Spell Pierces or Flusterstorms handy in case. If you are not blue, make sure you can either deal with tokens or the Charbelcher itself.

(CHRISTMAS) MIRACLES

Finally we come to the greatest boogeyman of Legacy for the past several months, Miracle Control. Miracles is a great deck for several reasons. One: it is a blue deck with a ton of card manipulation and card draw, meaning it can see a ton of cards and find the answers it needs to for certain problems during a given game. Two: it kicks Legacy right where it has been primarily focused for the last several years, the combat step. By beating up on creature based decks, you pretty much have a stranglehold on a large portion of the format. Few decks forego creatures to win the game. Coupled with beating up on creature decks using a one-mana Wrath of God, Miracles runs the Counterbalance-Top soft-lock to extrude long term advantage over the course of the game by controlling the stack. As I talked about in the previous article, Miracles has changed its decklist over the past few months and now has a Counterbalance curve with more threes and fours. This less one and two-CMC centric Counterbalance curve gives the Miracles deck more game against more decks in the format over a large portion of the game. Counterbalance in previous days may have been negated when people started dropped their Knight of the Reliquary and Vindicates, but this is no longer the case. Three: the deck runs many basic lands to avoid the effects of Wasteland. Wasteland significantly impacts deck construction due to restricting how your deck develops, especially in the early game. Miracles can fetch basics easily and often to ensure Wasteland is never a problem to properly contructing a zone of protection by whatever means the Miracles player is doing (either Counterbalance and/or Rest in Peace Combo).

Miracles seems to be at the right place and at the right time in the metagame by having access to the right tools for the jobs that many Legacy decks are trying to do. Rest in Peace is a great answer to graveyard strategies, Deathrite Shaman, and Tarmogoyf, while also enabling the Helm of Obedience kill condition. Consistent mana allows access to Blood Moon, and in the right colours to easily find it and protect it. Counterbalance and Terminus protect this slow deck while it builds up to an Entreat the Angels or Jace, the Mind Sculptor kill. With a deck so well positioned within what we know as the core values of Legacy, how does one fight the enemy with the perfect armour? If Miracles is a knight with chainmail armour, players must expand our pool of knowledge and cards to find the longbow that will pierce that armour.

Attacking the Miracles player’s manabase seems to be an exercise in futility by most attempts. Even six basics can have a Wasteland player in a tizzy, since Wasteland is for the most part negated. Against Miracles, you want to make sure to hold Wastelands to do a few things. Keep the Miracles player off white (if they have not fetched a Plains yet). No white mana means the inability to cast Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. Keeping Miracles off two white mana prevents the miracle cost of Entreat the Angels. If the deck is running Karakas, I would suggest a pre-emptive Wasteland to prevent repeated use of Venser, Shape Savant and Vendilion Clique. If Academy Ruins is being used to repeatedly Engineered Explosives, make sure that is also gotten rid of. If you do not currently have suitable targets for Wasteland, hold them. Do not waste your Wasteland on extra Tundras when they have multiple stable white sources.

Next, attack Terminus. Vendilion Clique is very useful against Miracle triggers, as is Stifle. If you do not have access to blue, either shut Terminus off by prevents a high value X-for-1. Play few creatures that each require an answer, forcing them to waste Terminus (like a large Knight of the Reliquary or a Shroud creature), or use recurring sources of damage like Lingering Souls. Gaddock Teeg prevents the Miracles player from using Terminus and makes them dig for Swords to Plowshares. If you can couple your Gaddock Teeg with an open Karakas to dodge Swords to Plowshares, you may be on to something against that matchup. Token generation is also another possibility to run out the Miracle player’s Termini. Tokens can be removed, but again recurring advantage against this deck. Garruk Relentless; Elspeth, Knight-Errant; and Garruk, Primal Hunter all provide creature tokens while mostly dodging the common Counterbalance numbers. Bigger tokens close the games more quickly which is ideal, since as the game drags on longer and longer, the more likely a high valued Entreat the Angels becomes, negating your gameplan entirely.

Attacking Counterbalance to clear the way for threats is also a legitimate strategy against Miracles. Miracles relies heavily on the Counterbalance lock to protect its threats. Counterbalance will be left in even against Abrupt Decay, even if this seems counterintuitive. If an opponent has the Abrupt Decay, they have 1-for-1’d the Miracle player and they sit at parity. If the opponent does not have Abrupt Decay, the Miracles player can attempt to use Counterbalance to counter other spells and becomes an increasing source of card advantage as time wears on and more spells are countered, leading to an X-for-1 situation until the Counterbalance is destroyed. Many players think about dealing with the Counterbalance and the Counterbalance only. The card that is actually leaving opponents in the dust is Sensei’s Divining Top. If you’ve played Miracles without a Top in play, the game is usually very miserable and usually results in a loss. This is why many times turn zero Thoughtseizes against Miracles are met with Force of Wills to fight over the Top. Top allows the facilitation of miracle cards as well as the Counterbalance lock. The lynchpin of the deck is Sensei’s Divining Top. Disable the Top and you are met with a deck that can’t find its X-for-1’s at the proper time. To disable Sensei’s Divining Top, use cards like Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek,Phyrexian Revoker, Stony Silence, or even Abrupt Decay in response to Top’s draw trigger.

The late game of Miracles is ruled by Jace in some fashion. Jace either draws more answers until Entreat the Angels or the Helm Combo can be found or is used directly to fateseal an opponent and lead to victory. These paths to victory can each be separately addressed, but leads back to Sensei’s Divining Top. Top finds their Jaces, combo pieces, or Entreat the Angels. To deal with Jace, you can have many attackers, Needle effects, Gaddock Teeg, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Vindicate effects, or other Planeswalkers. Combo pieces for the Helm Combo can be dealt with via Abrupt Decay, hand disruption, or once again, Counterspells. Entreat the Angels can be dealt with using an Engineered Explosives set to zero prior to any angels, Maelstrom Pulse, Gaddock Teeg, Raking Canopy, or dealt with like any other Miracle trigger with Stifle or Vendilion Clique. If you know the decks you expect to see in the tournament you plan to play in, pick a win condition you plan to deal with.

Miracles has to be attacked from many angles to be beaten in a decisive fashion. It has access to many different answers while simultaneously being good against the typical Legacy strategy. Some mix of Pithing Needles, Planeswalkers, tokens, hand disruption, Vendilion Cliques and Stifles, while backed with a clock and a solid manabase can lead you to victory against your Miracles opponents. The question really is which of these strategies can you feasibly run with given your deck design, how many slots can you dedicate, are those slots worth the investment, and do you expect the matchup? No deck in the format right now does all of these things, nor would they want to. You could make a deck that was super great against Miracles (this deck is called BUG Control) but will have a very bad time against the rest of the format. The real decider comes down to have answers to the matchups your deck fears and testing those answers to determine the value of your investment."

lyracian
12-26-2012, 02:41 AM
It's Christmas, so I'll post the rough draft (as in, the FIRST draft) of my second article in here for all to view. Constructive comments are suggested since this was literally written in one go. I won't normally do this, but since it's Christmas and my editor is on vacation, it might mean we would not get a chance to discuss this before Denver. Enjoy...and Merry Christmas to all!
I enjoyed reading that and Happy Holidays back at you.

Now attempting to make constructive comments ...
Being prepared for Blood Moon with extra Basics is a good suggestion. You seemed to be trying to build the article up to finishing on Miracles (which was nice); however half your EsperBlade review really seemed to about the Miracle deck. You also talked about not spending too many sideboard slots for Burn unless you play in a meta with a lot of it and then do not list any suggestions for what to play other than Timely Reinforcements.

Article also seemed to lack a summary/conclusion. Something like a suggested sideboard of
3-4 Hymns (vs Combo, Miracles)
3-4 Engineered Plagues (Vs Tribal, Lingering Souls)
1-2 Golgari Charm (Goblins, Souls, Supreme Verdict)
and so on...

sdematt
12-26-2012, 03:59 AM
I enjoyed reading that and Happy Holidays back at you.

Now attempting to make constructive comments ...
Being prepared for Blood Moon with extra Basics is a good suggestion. You seemed to be trying to build the article up to finishing on Miracles (which was nice); however half your EsperBlade review really seemed to about the Miracle deck. You also talked about not spending too many sideboard slots for Burn unless you play in a meta with a lot of it and then do not list any suggestions for what to play other than Timely Reinforcements.

Article also seemed to lack a summary/conclusion. Something like a suggested sideboard of
3-4 Hymns (vs Combo, Miracles)
3-4 Engineered Plagues (Vs Tribal, Lingering Souls)
1-2 Golgari Charm (Goblins, Souls, Supreme Verdict)
and so on...

Yeah, the article isn't done. This was literally the alpha of the thing. Or, I guess, pre-alpha. There will be a summary and review of what you should be running as a board.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
12-26-2012, 10:19 AM
Definitely a great read, and Happy Holidays (belated or no) to all!

My only point of criticism is on the part of the RUG Delver not being our best matchup. I disagree; I believe it to be a very positive matchup, because of (as pretty much everyone has been saying) Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Shaman's obviously crazy good against that deck, and Decay ensures you survive Delvers or win Goyf fights. The only element of that deck that concerns me is Stifle and maybe Submerge from the board.

In my boarding, I usually subtract 4 thoughtseize for 3 extirpate and a scavenging ooze.

Esper3k
12-26-2012, 10:33 AM
Definitely a great read, and Happy Holidays (belated or no) to all!

My only point of criticism is on the part of the RUG Delver not being our best matchup. I disagree; I believe it to be a very positive matchup, because of (as pretty much everyone has been saying) Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Shaman's obviously crazy good against that deck, and Decay ensures you survive Delvers or win Goyf fights. The only element of that deck that concerns me is Stifle and maybe Submerge from the board.

In my boarding, I usually subtract 4 thoughtseize for 3 extirpate and a scavenging ooze.

For me, I'm actually a fan of keeping in our 1 mana hand disruption spells against RUG simply because they preemptively deal with things like Submerge or even Force of Will, which allow them to keep our bombs (read Knight) off the board long enough to tempo us out.

AggroSteve
12-26-2012, 12:08 PM
i had quite good expieriences with hymn against RUG.
the manadenial plan works quite good against RUG (surprisingly but true), hymn and wasteland go a long way in this matchup even if a bit of luck is needed, plus hymn is card-advantage which RUG lags.
But i have to agree with Esper3k that 1cmc discard is quite good against RUG because on the play it either forces the opponent to use force of will, or they will lose maybe their delver or stifle, which helps our play quite a bit.
I am actually most affraid of double stifle + wasteland hands on their side as it will get hard to even land a single bomb of ours. If there were just a single stifle you can manage with 1cmc targeted discard, hymn instead will just slow their gameplan but its not assured you will even land a hymn in that scenario.
Therefore i would suggest using 1cmc discard instead of hymn against RUG.
If my conclusions are wrong in any way please enlighten me :P

Happy holydays from me as well even if it comes delated.

Esper3k
12-26-2012, 12:20 PM
i had quite good expieriences with hymn against RUG.
the manadenial plan works quite good against RUG (surprisingly but true), hymn and wasteland go a long way in this matchup even if a bit of luck is needed, plus hymn is card-advantage which RUG lags.
But i have to agree with Esper3k that 1cmc discard is quite good against RUG because on the play it either forces the opponent to use force of will, or they will lose maybe their delver or stifle, which helps our play quite a bit.
I am actually most affraid of double stifle + wasteland hands on their side as it will get hard to even land a single bomb of ours. If there were just a single stifle you can manage with 1cmc targeted discard, hymn instead will just slow their gameplan but its not assured you will even land a hymn in that scenario.
Therefore i would suggest using 1cmc discard instead of hymn against RUG.
If my conclusions are wrong in any way please enlighten me :P

Happy holydays from me as well even if it comes delated.

The only reasons I don't like Hymn against RUG is because:

1) Their best plan against us is to mana denial / tempo us out. If the game goes long and we stabilize, we're usually going to win. When we're trying to play around Stifle/Wasteland and are getting our basics out, a spell that costs double mana of the same color automatically means we're going to be susceptible to Wasteland.

2) Along the lines of them being on the mana denial plan, their Spell Pierces and Dazes are very effective against us early because of that. Hymn is powerful, but makes us more vulnerable to their mana taxing countermagic as opposed to the 1 drop discard spells.

3) Finally, I don't like bringing Hymn in because I don't think we need to overload on discard against the tempo decks. They have the ability to dump their hands quickly so Hymn getting drawn mid-late game can be really rough on us.

godofallu
12-26-2012, 12:43 PM
The only reasons I don't like Hymn against RUG is because:

1) Their best plan against us is to mana denial / tempo us out. If the game goes long and we stabilize, we're usually going to win. When we're trying to play around Stifle/Wasteland and are getting our basics out, a spell that costs double mana of the same color automatically means we're going to be susceptible to Wasteland.

2) Along the lines of them being on the mana denial plan, their Spell Pierces and Dazes are very effective against us early because of that. Hymn is powerful, but makes us more vulnerable to their mana taxing countermagic as opposed to the 1 drop discard spells.

3) Finally, I don't like bringing Hymn in because I don't think we need to overload on discard against the tempo decks. They have the ability to dump their hands quickly so Hymn getting drawn mid-late game can be really rough on us.

I would also board out Thoughtseize since it just gets you closer to burn range, and is kind of a waste of time when you end up grabbing burn spells to protect stuff anyways. The other reason I dislike discard against RUG (hymn) is because you really turn on spell pierce.

Plus the double black from Hymn is suicide on the mana base. Basically I second what the guy above me said.

sdematt
12-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Definitely a great read, and Happy Holidays (belated or no) to all!

My only point of criticism is on the part of the RUG Delver not being our best matchup. I disagree; I believe it to be a very positive matchup, because of (as pretty much everyone has been saying) Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Shaman's obviously crazy good against that deck, and Decay ensures you survive Delvers or win Goyf fights. The only element of that deck that concerns me is Stifle and maybe Submerge from the board.

In my boarding, I usually subtract 4 thoughtseize for 3 extirpate and a scavenging ooze.

Fair enough, but I've just had one too many times where I'm about to close the game and get double Bolted in Game 1. Just so annoying :tongue:

If they hit their draws really well and consistently, burning us out does happen. I will agree that Abrupt Decay has made this matchup far better, though. Maybe it's just the player I test against regularly (who is very good and knows my playstyle well) as well as statistical variance.

-Matt

Esper3k
12-26-2012, 02:31 PM
I've tried sideboarding out Thoughtseize as well against RUG, but ultimately in the long run, I think it'll hurt you more to do so than to help you (of course, if you're bringing in something like 3x PtE that's fine).

The reason is because we still need to have a good density of 1 drops to play on T1. Thoughtseize on T1 is still one of those great cards against them because if they Daze / Counter, we've drawn out countermagic and don't have to lose life. If it resolves, we get valuable information on what's coming up / what to play around as well as get to nab something like a Tarmogoyf or Submerge out of their hand. We don't always want to lead off with a T1 StP because if it gets Dazed, we can be in big trouble but if we wait until T2 to play around Daze, they can start building too much presence on board for us to effectively deal with (ie, T1 Delver/Goose, T2 Tarmogoyf). Thoughtseize fills a nice hole in that it's an early 1 drop that we don't really care if they counter, but if they don't it's amazing.

Secondly, 1 mana discard is often cut for spells that cost more (O-Rings, Choke, Pernicious Deed, Hymn), which again screws up our curve especially if we're on the draw.

Barbed Blightning
12-26-2012, 10:23 PM
I've tried sideboarding out Thoughtseize as well against RUG, but ultimately in the long run, I think it'll hurt you more to do so than to help you (of course, if you're bringing in something like 3x PtE that's fine).

The reason is because we still need to have a good density of 1 drops to play on T1. Thoughtseize on T1 is still one of those great cards against them because if they Daze / Counter, we've drawn out countermagic and don't have to lose life. If it resolves, we get valuable information on what's coming up / what to play around as well as get to nab something like a Tarmogoyf or Submerge out of their hand. We don't always want to lead off with a T1 StP because if it gets Dazed, we can be in big trouble but if we wait until T2 to play around Daze, they can start building too much presence on board for us to effectively deal with (ie, T1 Delver/Goose, T2 Tarmogoyf). Thoughtseize fills a nice hole in that it's an early 1 drop that we don't really care if they counter, but if they don't it's amazing.

Secondly, 1 mana discard is often cut for spells that cost more (O-Rings, Choke, Pernicious Deed, Hymn), which again screws up our curve especially if we're on the draw.

This is all very true, actually. Maybe... we shouldn't bother boarding against RUG? At least considering this (my current) list:

x4 Deathrite Shaman
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Knight of the Reliquary

x4 Thoughtseize
x2 Inquisition of Kozilek

x4 Swords to Plowshares
x4 Abrupt Decay
x1 Vindicate

x2 Sensei's Diving Top
x1 Sylvan Library

x3 Liliana of the Veil

x4 Wasteland
x4 Verdant Catacomb
x2 Windswept Heath
x2 Marsh Flats
x2 Bayou
x2 Scrubland
x1 Savannah
x1 Forest
x1 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Bojuka Bog
x1 Maze of Ith
x1 Karakas

Sideboard:

x3 Hymn to Tourach
x3 Extirpate
x2 Gaddock Teeg
x2 Engineered Plague
x2 Pithing Needle
x1 Virtue's Ruin
x1 Scavenging Ooze
x1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

-----

Haters be damned, Vindicate's been awesome for me. I know, I know. Maelstrom Pulse is Spike's favorite x-for-1. As a Timmy, the coolness factor of Vindicate makes it better (and destroying a basic and wasting a dual in the same turn has proven pretty good).

I'm trying out a single Library and so far it's been powerful against Miracles. Who would have thought a free brainstorm would be so good?

I also cut down on the bayou count for the basic plains. I hate to, but Matt's talk of Blood Moon has me paranoid (despite Abrupt Decay). I also ran into Burn, and PoP was not friendly. Beat him to four life in game three while I was at 3 for two turns, then double deathrite sealed the deal. :cool:

My biggest problem right now is sideboarding. I have a long list of cards I want to fit into it, but can't fit it all in. Not included are:

Maelstrom Pulse
Golgari Charm
Choke
Pernicious Deed
Timely Reinforcements/Rest for the Weary
Bojuka Bog
Garruk Relentless
More Teegs
More Oozes

I realize Matt discussed this in his draft, but I'm also looking for advice for decks in my local meta, such as Nic Fit (Rector and Scapewish), Stax, Deadguy and the Mirror. Nic Fit especially, since I'm concerned that I'm bringing too much in--extirpates, virtue's ruin (rector only), pithing needles, Elspeth. It's not common, know, but I'm usually guaranteed to play against it. Liliana's usually enough to win most matches on her own, but they bring in Abrupt Decays on top of Pulse/Vindicates main to deal with her.


Hopefully when the completed article is published I'll have a better bearing on the deck.

sdematt
12-27-2012, 03:17 AM
3 Needles has been really stellar for me, in all honesty. Was testing them all of tonight against BUG and Miracles, and it's really the difference between eeking out games in the long run and falling short. Taking the opponents off of Jace or Liliana is just brutal, since we can muster better board presence with superiour creatures, and without the Planeswalker portion, we're doomed.

Against BUG, Garruk was an absolute house. BUG can't remove him and doesn't have counters in some versions, so he's just THAT good. As of right now, I've upped him to two in the main (replacing 1 STP) just as a trial.

-Matt

AggroSteve
12-27-2012, 06:21 AM
Hi guys, i have been struggeling with the goblin matchup, i would need some advice in this case how to best them more often, and i would also need some card suggestions for the sideboard that do not suck against the other decks around

my sidrboard right now is (hymn is a 4-off in the maindeck)

3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deed
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 gaddock teeg
2 timely reinforcements
2 zealos persecution

right now i am not that satisfied with persecution and reinforcements

thanks in advance for your input / help

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 09:04 AM
@Barbed Lightning: With your sideboard, I'd probably do something like -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Scavenging Ooze just because it's so good against them. Really at the end, I didn't end up changing the list at all in my matches against RUG. The only thing I'd bring out 1 mana discard for is for 1 mana removal like PtE (if I ran it) or something that's just a brutal bomb against them like Scavenging Ooze.

For your mana base though, I think 12 fetches is a little much. Sure it's great with Knight and Shaman, but really increases your vulnerability to both Stifle (obvs since you have more fetches) and Wasteland (since you have less actual nonbasics). For example, if you are playing against RUG and fetch out your basic Swamp and only have 1 other land, you're forced to fetch your Savannah next to balance out your colors. Getting Wastelanded there means you have no more Savannahs to fetch. Personally, I like to have 3 Scrubland, 2 Bayou, 2 Savannah. This is because off of a basic Forest, we can fetch Scrubland and have access to every single one of our multicolor spells since G(B/W) gives us the colored mana requirement we need for everything. This is also why I like Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate since you can cast Pulse with Forest+Scrubland, but can't do it with Vindicate.

Also to help with the Stifle/Wasteland decks, I eventually cut down to 2 Wastelands since getting colored mana is so important for us. 2 Wastelands was fine for me to fetch up with Knight to deal with pesky utility lands. Sure, you tend to get less of the auto-win of T1 Wasteland color screw your opponent, but I felt having a more resilient mana base was more important over a large number of matches.

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 09:13 AM
Hi guys, i have been struggeling with the goblin matchup, i would need some advice in this case how to best them more often, and i would also need some card suggestions for the sideboard that do not suck against the other decks around

my sidrboard right now is (hymn is a 4-off in the maindeck)

3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deed
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 gaddock teeg
2 timely reinforcements
2 zealos persecution

right now i am not that satisfied with persecution and reinforcements

thanks in advance for your input / help

I don't like Hymn main because I think it's more important for us to pinpoint target problematic spells preemptively so our bombs can get through. Also as in my earlier post, I think the presence of 1 mana discard is very important for our mana curve (since our bombs start to drop on T2/3).

Do you run Jitte in your main? The SFM package is hellish for Goblin players to deal with. Lingering Souls is also pretty good at gumming up the board against them.

Path to Exile has always been my go-to sideboard card if all you want to do is crush the aggro matchup. Although honestly, if you're already playing 3-4 StP + 3-4 Abrupt Decay + SFM package, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with Goblins. I actually like to keep Thoughtseize in against them since you can grab Ringleaders and SGC with it.

============================================

Regarding Grisly Salvage - I actually tested the idea out in Junk as the next step in evolution of an Eva Green list I had been playing. Essentially, I was using it to Grisly Salvage into Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy, and... Tombstalker! An EoT Grisly Salvage nets you 5 cards into your yard. That means if you already have 1 card in your yard (or have a fetch), you can immediately cast Tombstalker when you untap. T3 Tombstalkers are pretty brutal, especially with all the Abrupt Decays running around! I also have a love affair with Cabal Therapy, so Salvaging into Therapy or into Lingering Souls (or both!) was always great. Oftentimes, I would also grab a land if my hand was mana light, so it does have utility in that respect as well.

In the end, I cut the package for one that was better against the control decks (Lingering Souls + SFM package), but it was a fun experiment and I figured I'd put up my experiences for other people to play around with.

Barbed Blightning
12-27-2012, 11:58 AM
@Barbed Lightning: With your sideboard, I'd probably do something like -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Scavenging Ooze just because it's so good against them. Really at the end, I didn't end up changing the list at all in my matches against RUG. The only thing I'd bring out 1 mana discard for is for 1 mana removal like PtE (if I ran it) or something that's just a brutal bomb against them like Scavenging Ooze.

For your mana base though, I think 12 fetches is a little much. Sure it's great with Knight and Shaman, but really increases your vulnerability to both Stifle (obvs since you have more fetches) and Wasteland (since you have less actual nonbasics). For example, if you are playing against RUG and fetch out your basic Swamp and only have 1 other land, you're forced to fetch your Savannah next to balance out your colors. Getting Wastelanded there means you have no more Savannahs to fetch. Personally, I like to have 3 Scrubland, 2 Bayou, 2 Savannah. This is because off of a basic Forest, we can fetch Scrubland and have access to every single one of our multicolor spells since G(B/W) gives us the colored mana requirement we need for everything. This is also why I like Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate since you can cast Pulse with Forest+Scrubland, but can't do it with Vindicate.

Also to help with the Stifle/Wasteland decks, I eventually cut down to 2 Wastelands since getting colored mana is so important for us. 2 Wastelands was fine for me to fetch up with Knight to deal with pesky utility lands. Sure, you tend to get less of the auto-win of T1 Wasteland color screw your opponent, but I felt having a more resilient mana base was more important over a large number of matches.

12? I only have eight--4 verdant, 2 heath, 2 flats. I've found that Wasteland is a 3-4-of as well, as it feeds your knight, and feeds you deathrite's mana ability. It also has the pocket value of making you less susceptible to PoP. It's also a means of achieving a tempo-y win by pumping knights by two.

As far as Vindicate vs. Pulse is concerned, you'll need a third land anyway. Unless you've purposefully fetched up another basic forest, do not have a deathrite/knight out or have a wasteland (admittedly somewhat possible) you'll be fine with scrub + forest. I usually fetch bayou first, but Scrubland definitely does the job. I just hate not having green mana.

I really like the Souls/Tombstalker/Therapy/SFM idea. Essentially you'd be cutting GSZ/Lilly, Goyf and some other flak for it? Sounds like a hybrid of Deadguy and BUG. I wonder what that could even look like?

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 12:09 PM
12? I only have eight--4 verdant, 2 heath, 2 flats. I've found that Wasteland is a 3-4-of as well, as it feeds your knight, and feeds you deathrite's mana ability. It also has the pocket value of making you less susceptible to PoP. It's also a means of achieving a tempo-y win by pumping knights by two.

As far as Vindicate vs. Pulse is concerned, you'll need a third land anyway. Unless you've purposefully fetched up another basic forest, do not have a deathrite/knight out or have a wasteland (admittedly somewhat possible) you'll be fine with scrub + forest. I usually fetch bayou first, but Scrubland definitely does the job. I just hate not having green mana.

I really like the Souls/Tombstalker/Therapy/SFM idea. Essentially you'd be cutting GSZ/Lilly, Goyf and some other flak for it? Sounds like a hybrid of Deadguy and BUG. I wonder what that could even look like?

Oops, sorry my bad - I had counted 12 somehow, hah! Yeah, I just had a lot of colored mana problems with 4 Wastelands against those Stifle/Wasteland decks so I had cut down to 3, then eventually cut down to 2.

Here's the Tombstalker Junk list I had played around with for awhile:

// Lands
1 [SOM] Plains (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
2 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [COM] Bojuka Bog
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)

// Creatures
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [RTR] Grisly Salvage

I'm having real issues justifying Tamogoyfs in the meta these days. With how strong the UW Miracles deck is and even some of those running Helm/RIP, Tarmogoyf seems just subpar.

I like the SFM because it's a bomby 2 drop that beats Tarmogoyf (let's see them try racing your Batterskull with a 'goyf) and also doubles as a great card against the control decks. Of course, equipment is also important when you're playing the Lingering Souls package.

In terms of the tension between Tombstalker and the rest of your yard based guys, I haven't found it to be a huge issue if you play / eat your yard carefully. If you hit Grisly Salvage, that makes Tombstalker really a non-issue. Otherwise, you just delve on your instants/sorceries/creatures. Even if you have to Delve a couple lands, active Knights grow ridiculously quickly anyways.

AggroSteve
12-27-2012, 04:32 PM
I don't like Hymn main because I think it's more important for us to pinpoint target problematic spells preemptively so our bombs can get through. Also as in my earlier post, I think the presence of 1 mana discard is very important for our mana curve (since our bombs start to drop on T2/3).

Do you run Jitte in your main? The SFM package is hellish for Goblin players to deal with. Lingering Souls is also pretty good at gumming up the board against them.

Path to Exile has always been my go-to sideboard card if all you want to do is crush the aggro matchup. Although honestly, if you're already playing 3-4 StP + 3-4 Abrupt Decay + SFM package, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with Goblins. I actually like to keep Thoughtseize in against them since you can grab Ringleaders and SGC with it.


i run a fairly standard build, no jitte, no SFM as i allways believed he has no place in The Rock, because compared to other decks (running mother of runes or countermagic) in the rock SFM will not be as strong as he could or should be

either way, i allready posted my sideboard, here comes my MD

23 lands, including 3 wasteland, 1 karakas, 1 maze of ith, 1 bojuka bog, 8 fetches, 3 basics, 6 duals

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay
3 vindicate

3 senseis divining top
2 liliana of the veil

4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize

Sideboard:

3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deed
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 gaddock teeg
2 timely reinforcements
2 zealos persecution

i have been thinking of cutting hymn from the maindeck now for quite some time, but hymn occasionaly wins games alone
my thoughts on cutting hymn were mainly for the reasons that were discussed about the RUG matchup, it simply is so valuable picking exactly the card that you do not want to see in that particular moment. Hymn may be card advantage but can bite your ass if you do not hit the right cards
i thought of switching the 4 hymns out for 2-3 inquisitions of kozilek the 3rd abrupt decay maindeck and maybe some fancy one-off that supplements the overall gameplan or maybe a disruptive creature, maybe even the 3rd liliana as she is just awesome. There are so many options for this last slot, so many i have problems actually choosing one :P

still my problem with goblins remains, obviously i board in some path to exile, but the rest of my sideboard feels rather conditional or even subpar against goblins.

What cards would you guys board in, and what cards do you prefer overall in the goblins matchup?
Thx in advance again :D

damionblackgear
12-27-2012, 04:45 PM
What cards would you guys board in, and what cards do you prefer overall in the goblins matchup?
Thx in advance again :D

Steve, with your list, I'd probably go:

+2 Path
+2 Timely
+2 Persecution/Deed (Depending on if their playing Lord or Cheif)

-4 Hymn (Good card, bad match for it)
-1 Thoughtseize (you want discard, but not a lot of it)
-1 Shaman (this little guy isn't going to be fast enough to kill or save you and it lowers your creature count by 1 for timely. It does block lackey though)

That should give you enough time to set the board up to be favorable even with them Ringleadering into the nuts. Save your removal and let your creatures stall the things that don't matter (I.e kill lords/chief, siegegang, piledriver, etc). Try to charge Lili since she's pretty much useless otherwise (to many gobo's on the floor to get a good sac). When they see what you're doing, you should have enough of a presence to make the forced attacks bad. If you do get the chance, I'd probably separate lands and vial. From there, dealers choice. You just don't want them going nuts and cheating things into play with removal mana up.

Crust
12-27-2012, 04:46 PM
Engineered Plague is good against goblins. Better than ZP in my opinion.
This can be usefull against other decks too.
Wizard in Miracles eats Snapcaster and Clique.
Elves obviously.
Soul tokens.
Humans against Maveric, dont really know about that but in theory it seems pretty sweet.
Dredge, but Im not sure what to say; horror (ichorid), zombies or illusion?
What other creature types are there to mention in legacy meta?

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 04:46 PM
Yeah, again I'm not a fan of Hymn in the 75 these days really. I prefer 6 1 mana discard spells in the main and a couple more Duresses in the side.

Another card you can bring in against Goblins (and tribal / aggro in general) is Dueling Grounds. Our guys will always be bigger than theirs so we win the 1 vs 1 fight.

I think 3 Vindicates is too much, especially when you have the cheaper Abrupt Decay option still available to you.

I personally prefer Sylvan Library over Top as well - costs you less mana over time and the draw extra cards ability is soul crushing against the blue control decks.

In your sideboard, I probably wouldn't run Zealous Persecution, especially since you don't run Lingering Souls yourself.

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 04:50 PM
Engineered Plague is good against goblins.
This can be usefull against other decks to.
Wizard in Miracles eats Snapcaster and Clique.
Elves obviously.
Soul tokens.
Humans against Maveric, dont really know about that but in theory it seems pretty sweet.
Dredge, but Im not sure what to say; horror (ichorid), zombies or illusion?
What else is there to mention in legacy meta?

I think ePlague is pretty bad against Miracles since it's also going to kill all your Bobs whatever you name.

Likewise against Maverick, I think Deed is just much better and generally useful.

EPlague for Dredge still doesn't do that much for them because even though you kill Ichorids or Narcomebas, they're still going to get zombie tokens out of it.

Crust
12-27-2012, 05:00 PM
I think ePlague is pretty bad against Miracles since it's also going to kill all your Bobs whatever you name.

Likewise against Maverick, I think Deed is just much better and generally useful.

EPlague for Dredge still doesn't do that much for them because even though you kill Ichorids or Narcomebas, they're still going to get zombie tokens out of it.

Yes maybe u need 2 on Zombie.
Tuffer for them to use Cabal therapy though.

Yes it kills your bob but it does a good job against mom who can be a very stubborn woman : )

Crust
12-27-2012, 05:09 PM
What about Orzhov Pontiff against gobbos?

Esper3k
12-27-2012, 05:25 PM
Yes maybe u need 2 on Zombie.
Tuffer for them to use Cabal therapy though.

Yes it kills your bob but it does a good job against mom who can be a very stubborn woman : )

By the time you get down Plague, they probably already have Cabal Therapied you (and saw that you don't have any countermagic so they don't really care).

Bob > Mother of Runes...


What about Orzhov Pontiff against gobbos?

Why not just play a couple Jittes for tribal matchups?

Barbed Blightning
12-27-2012, 05:38 PM
Engineered Plague is good against goblins.
This can be usefull against other decks to.
Wizard in Miracles eats Snapcaster and Clique.
Elves obviously.
Soul tokens.
Humans against Maveric, dont really know about that but in theory it seems pretty sweet.
Dredge, but Im not sure what to say; horror (ichorid), zombies or illusion?
What else is there to mention in legacy meta?

On human against D&T and they basically have no game (aside from Serra Avenger beats and equipment.) Virtue's Ruin and Deed are also great against them. Just beware SFM/Batterskull.

Against Fish it works well as a resistance element. More of a way to negate their lords than kill their dudes.

However, I would never bring it in against any other deck. The issue with engineered plague for me is that it goes against most of the cards I try to include--i.e., cards that are bombs in some matches while flexible enough for use in others. Needle, Teeg, Hymn and Elspeth fit this perfectly. Plague is in my board because Goblins' resurgence, and because without it, the match is significantly harder.

Mr. Safety
12-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Hi guys, i have been struggeling with the goblin matchup, i would need some advice in this case how to best them more often, and i would also need some card suggestions for the sideboard that do not suck against the other decks around

my sidrboard right now is (hymn is a 4-off in the maindeck)

3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deed
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 gaddock teeg
2 timely reinforcements
2 zealos persecution

right now i am not that satisfied with persecution and reinforcements

thanks in advance for your input / help

I'm using Timely Reinforcements x3 and Jitte x2 for tribals in the board. I also play 2x maindeck Deeds, which are good but won't win you the game by themselves. I am SERIOUSLY debating Lingering Souls in the maindeck, even if the Jittes stay in the board.

AggroSteve
12-27-2012, 07:12 PM
i have tried lingering souls and really, really disliked it. actually the best card mentioned from the previous post seems to be jitte, maybe combined with timely reinforcements to have a steady supply of creatures.

3 vindicates is indeed a bit much, but as of now it will be vindicate because i rarely get the time to play competitive magic, and lack the 3rd and 4th abrupt decay (plus i have a somewhat soft spot for this oldschool card :P).
top vs. library: same thing, i do lack the librarys, but aside of the tempodecks i am quite satisfied with top, even if library would be miles better (plus i am using shocklands because right now i cannot efford them, so the lifeloss from library, thoughtseize, bob and my lands would probably be to much overall, dont know...)

the changings on my list i was thinking about are the following

-4 hymn
-1 vindicate

+ 2-3 inquisition of kozilek
+ 1 abrupt decay
+ 1-2 Engineered Explosives (or maybe 1/1 split for the 3rd liliana)

Sideboard changes

- 2 zealos persecutions
- 2 path to exile (may be completely wrong, but want to try)

+ 1 abrupt decay (making it a total of 4)
and either one of the 2 following options, depending on the meta
+ 2 jitte
+ 1 timely reinforcements (making it 3)

+ 2 inquition of kozilek /hymn to tourach
+ 1 gaddock teeg (making it 3)

what do you guys think about this?

and thanks a lot for your very helpfull input

sdematt
12-28-2012, 01:20 AM
I'm not a huge fan of Plague if all you're using it for is tokens. I mean I like it, but I think I like other cards better in those slots.

Right now, I'm trying:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Hymn
1 Elspeth
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed/EE
2 Surgical
2 Ooze

Ooze busts the Deathrite mirrors in half in your favour. Ooze against BUG is really, really good, especially since so many creatures end up going to the graveyard. You end up with big Oozes that muck their Deathrite plan and serve as extra attackers. Needles hold off their later game Jace + Liliana, and they don't have enough removal for your guys + Needles.

Against Esper, I bring in Needles, Teeg, Deed/EE, and Ooze. EE/Deed handles their tokens and board while Ooze cleans up Souls as well, and Needle helps against keeping Jace off the table or against Jitte or SFM if need be. I've been very happy with Ooze #2, and it'll help against random graveyard.deck that'll show up, since Dredge isn't very hated out by DRS in the maindeck (not being able to remove Bridges /multiple cards in a turn is big).

-Matt

lavafrogg
12-28-2012, 02:46 AM
I'm not a huge fan of Plague if all you're using it for is tokens. I mean I like it, but I think I like other cards better in those slots.

Right now, I'm trying:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Hymn
1 Elspeth
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed/EE
2 Surgical
2 Ooze

Ooze busts the Deathrite mirrors in half in your favour. Ooze against BUG is really, really good, especially since so many creatures end up going to the graveyard. You end up with big Oozes that muck their Deathrite plan and serve as extra attackers. Needles hold off their later game Jace + Liliana, and they don't have enough removal for your guys + Needles.

Against Esper, I bring in Needles, Teeg, Deed/EE, and Ooze. EE/Deed handles their tokens and board while Ooze cleans up Souls as well, and Needle helps against keeping Jace off the table or against Jitte or SFM if need be. I've been very happy with Ooze #2, and it'll help against random graveyard.deck that'll show up, since Dredge isn't very hated out by DRS in the maindeck (not being able to remove Bridges /multiple cards in a turn is big).

-Matt

I second needle being a house right now. Jace is just too good and at the top of so many blue decks curves to not have a specific answer for. Ooze and teeg are also huge right now and they keep me playing 4 GSZ to always have access to them.

Barbed Blightning
12-28-2012, 08:45 AM
I'm not a huge fan of Plague if all you're using it for is tokens. I mean I like it, but I think I like other cards better in those slots.

Right now, I'm trying:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Hymn
1 Elspeth
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed/EE
2 Surgical
2 Ooze

Ooze busts the Deathrite mirrors in half in your favour. Ooze against BUG is really, really good, especially since so many creatures end up going to the graveyard. You end up with big Oozes that muck their Deathrite plan and serve as extra attackers. Needles hold off their later game Jace + Liliana, and they don't have enough removal for your guys + Needles.

Against Esper, I bring in Needles, Teeg, Deed/EE, and Ooze. EE/Deed handles their tokens and board while Ooze cleans up Souls as well, and Needle helps against keeping Jace off the table or against Jitte or SFM if need be. I've been very happy with Ooze #2, and it'll help against random graveyard.deck that'll show up, since Dredge isn't very hated out by DRS in the maindeck (not being able to remove Bridges /multiple cards in a turn is big).

-Matt

This looks damn near perfect to me, at least for an SCG/GP environment. I have to run other cards for my local meta, but this looks amazing. How has Elspeth been for you? Because for me, 5/4 flying Bobs have done a little bit of work against Miracles.

dballard
12-28-2012, 05:05 PM
How about Zealous Persecution do deal with tokens/goblins?

Mr. Safety
12-28-2012, 05:22 PM
i have tried lingering souls and really, really disliked it. actually the best card mentioned from the previous post seems to be jitte, maybe combined with timely reinforcements to have a steady supply of creatures.

3 vindicates is indeed a bit much, but as of now it will be vindicate because i rarely get the time to play competitive magic, and lack the 3rd and 4th abrupt decay (plus i have a somewhat soft spot for this oldschool card :P).
top vs. library: same thing, i do lack the librarys, but aside of the tempodecks i am quite satisfied with top, even if library would be miles better (plus i am using shocklands because right now i cannot efford them, so the lifeloss from library, thoughtseize, bob and my lands would probably be to much overall, dont know...)

the changings on my list i was thinking about are the following

-4 hymn
-1 vindicate

+ 2-3 inquisition of kozilek
+ 1 abrupt decay
+ 1-2 Engineered Explosives (or maybe 1/1 split for the 3rd liliana)

Sideboard changes

- 2 zealos persecutions
- 2 path to exile (may be completely wrong, but want to try)

+ 1 abrupt decay (making it a total of 4)
and either one of the 2 following options, depending on the meta
+ 2 jitte
+ 1 timely reinforcements (making it 3)

+ 2 inquition of kozilek /hymn to tourach
+ 1 gaddock teeg (making it 3)

what do you guys think about this?

and thanks a lot for your very helpfull input

I think if you're really dedicated to token hate, you should consider Golgari Charm as an alternative to Persecution. With your maindeck Vindicates I assume you'll have the right mana to get the BW cost, but for someone like me that simply splashes white for Knight/Swords/1x Vindicate it would be tougher. This is the main reason for avoiding Elspeth, although she's pretty great in a lot of matchups. Garruk Relentless fills her role fine and is much easier to cast, but she finishes games much better by making a big knight BIGGER and flying over the top.

I agree on Lingering Souls for the most part; I definately like the lifegain + tokens from Reinforcements better. It gives me time to find a Deed or Jitte and start taking over (all the while providing a really nice buffer against Burn decks, a classic bad matchup.)

However, I think anyone thinking about 3x Liliana should consider that Lingering Souls can be pure card advantage with her first ability.

Esper3k
12-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate is also good for dealing with tokens :)

Barbed Blightning
12-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate is also good for dealing with tokens :)

...and promptly leaving us not being able to deal with a topdeck Jace. Against miracles they'll usually entreat for lethal EOT, and against Esper, Lingering Souls... well, linger. Pulsing them (as opposed to Jitte, Jace, etc.) usually doesn't profit over time. Then again, I'm a deadset fanatic for Vindicate, so I'll bark at pretty much any opposing point. :)

Re: Golgari Charm: I have such a soft spot for this card. Sooo versatile--and yet, not relevant right now. In an open or GP I might try to find room for it, since it shores up Enchantress like a boss, helps add resilience versus random board wipe decks, AND kills all the x/1-reliant decks in the format.

sdematt
12-28-2012, 08:53 PM
I think Maelstrom Pulse has marginal relevance due to the prevalence of tokens and the possibility of a TES/Storm uprising at the GP; combo races Counterbalance and the lack of Force creates a favourable Storm environment. Pulse is also easier to cast, considering you'll probably want to fetch BG in the first two turns, but this downside is mitigated by Deathrite Shaman. Vindicate has value in mucking basic lands (or lands in general), but I think that's marginal for right now.

I actually haven't drawn Elspeth, but the second Garruk has been kicking BUG's butt when he lands. Deathtouch Wolves assassinate Planeswalkers and dodge Liliana's -2. I miss Dryad Arbor in this matchup since you could fetch for Arbor EOT to muck their Liliana, or just to have a non-relevant creature to sac, but I've been loving Forest #2.

-Matt

Esper3k
12-28-2012, 09:38 PM
Maelstrom Pulse kills Jace just like Vindicate does. Dying to tokens makes Jace moot anyways.

Really, as Matt said, the killing tokens part is a marginal benefit. I think it being easier to cast than Vindicate combined with the other small benefits do make Pulse overall more useful than Vindicate's ability to hit lands.

And I am a huge proponent of Jitte to deal with little creatures. I was just purely comparing Pulse vs Vindicate since AggroSteve was running 3 Vindicate main.

sdematt
12-28-2012, 11:34 PM
Maelstrom Pulse kills Jace just like Vindicate does. Dying to tokens makes Jace moot anyways.

Really, as Matt said, the killing tokens part is a marginal benefit. I think it being easier to cast than Vindicate combined with the other small benefits do make Pulse overall more useful than Vindicate's ability to hit lands.

And I am a huge proponent of Jitte to deal with little creatures. I was just purely comparing Pulse vs Vindicate since AggroSteve was running 3 Vindicate main.

I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

Esper3k
12-29-2012, 01:49 AM
I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

Even in the SFM builds, I don't like Vindicate. For me, I really like being able to cast anything in my deck off to Forest + Scrubland + X. Yes, people say well you can fix your mana with X being a Bayou or Savannah, but if you get Wastelanded, you can be wrecked. If your deck is set up to function off of Forest + Scrubland, your third land can fetch a backup Scrubland and you're fine even if you get Wastelanded.

I also think that Pulse's blowing up multiple things ability is usually much more relevant than blowing up a land with Vindicate these days. It's not like we're a dedicated LD deck, so our odds of actually mana screwing someone with it are poor.

Plus I always just feel like a waste using a spell as powerful as Vindicate on something as common as a land.

AggroSteve
12-29-2012, 04:44 AM
I think the only reasons you should be running Vindicate are if you're running the SFM package (meaning you're more in white), you're running Hymn to tourach maindeck, or something like that.

-Matt

actually i am running maindeck hymn to tourach, but you are probably right that i should swap my vindicates for pulses as i am thinking of cutting hymns for more 1cmc discard.
allthough i really love vindicate for the ability to kill lands, as it offers some sort of tempoplay for us, combined with wasteland (and hymn), but without hymn that gameplan will probably not be viable anymore

thx guys for all the input

and @ dballard: u have tried zealos persecution against goblins, and was utterly disgusted by its performance, simply because it would be a worse and conditional engineered Plague.
A single time engineered plague is just horrible against goblin, as the actually have o lot of 2/2s in their deck.
When i tried zealos persecution i had the maverick and goblin matchup in mind, so i was quite satisfied at that time. Against Maverick this card is quite good, but against the goblin matchup i do not think this card is worth it, in theory it should be good, but in reality it sucks really bad.

there is another matchup i am heavily struggeling with, it is not that common of a deck but somehow i cannot figure out how to consistently beat it

Its "The Gate": Every damn card in their deck has incremental card-advantage written on it (hymn to tourach, cabal therapy, gatekeeper of malakir, dark confidant, bitterblossom, umezawa's jitte ,.........

maybe you guys can help me again with this match

thx again

Esper3k
12-29-2012, 09:43 AM
The Gate is a fairly uncommon deck to run into. That being said, I have actually run into it a few times!

Note that I am playing the SFM / Lingering Souls list above so my thoughts are skewed based on that.

The Gate does have a lot of incremental advantage, but being a mono black deck, there are some things they have issues dealing with, namely enchantments and artifacts. Equipment and Sylvan Library are great against them since they have a tough time dealing with it. Planeswalkers are pretty good too as they have no way to fight them other than the attack step. As always, fighting over Bob is important.

Essentially, we win the fight through our superior creatures and superior removal spells. Sure they might have Gatekeeper and Bitterblossom, but Lingering Souls outclasses both those, for example. Jitte is an absolute nightmare for them to deal with. If they have any removal for it, it'll be in the form of bad cards like Nevinyyral's Disc or Oblivion Stone.

Btw, Gate lists running Obliterator are rare but goddamn that guy is a pain to deal with.

Also, if you're playing a Goyf list and they're playing Bitterblossom, you should be doing a fist pump. +2/+2 to your Goyfs when you AD it? Hells yeah!

Barbed Blightning
12-29-2012, 10:35 AM
actually i am running maindeck hymn to tourach, but you are probably right that i should swap my vindicates for pulses as i am thinking of cutting hymns for more 1cmc discard.
allthough i really love vindicate for the ability to kill lands, as it offers some sort of tempoplay for us, combined with wasteland (and hymn), but without hymn that gameplan will probably not be viable anymore

thx guys for all the input

and @ dballard: u have tried zealos persecution against goblins, and was utterly disgusted by its performance, simply because it would be a worse and conditional engineered Plague.
A single time engineered plague is just horrible against goblin, as the actually have o lot of 2/2s in their deck.
When i tried zealos persecution i had the maverick and goblin matchup in mind, so i was quite satisfied at that time. Against Maverick this card is quite good, but against the goblin matchup i do not think this card is worth it, in theory it should be good, but in reality it sucks really bad.

there is another matchup i am heavily struggeling with, it is not that common of a deck but somehow i cannot figure out how to consistently beat it

Its "The Gate": Every damn card in their deck has incremental card-advantage written on it (hymn to tourach, cabal therapy, gatekeeper of malakir, dark confidant, bitterblossom, umezawa's jitte ,.........

maybe you guys can help me again with this match

thx again

Thing is, I do play much more of an aggressive Tempo game. Knights are usually swinging when they're 6/6s and deathrite seven times out of ten are draining my opponents rather than buffing me or making mana. That's why I like Vindicate, especially if I'm playing against a greedy tribal deck that thinks the one basic they have in-hand is going to get them there because it's "wasteland-proof" (this has actually helped me vs. goblins a few times now.) The issue I've had with maelstrom pulse is that I almost always end up using it on tokens, because that's what will hit the most, and Abrupt Decay/STP has taken care of everything else. Vindicate is better imo because it can hit things Abrupt Decay can't: lands and things CMC-4+.


Re: eplague vs. goblins: This isn't actually the case, however. The deck is filled with 1/1's--lackey, matron, mogg war marshal and the thousands of tokens they can crap out. Plague slows them down and is something they can't deal with unless they're splashing colors (many don't) or if they're running multiple goblin chieftains (usually no more than two) and even then they are easy to deal with.

Yes, they still have Ringleader, Warchief, Piledriver Siege-Gang and Krenko and the occasional Stingscourger, but given that they're 1/1's, you can let DRS or anyone but Bob take care of them. And if you get the miraculous double-plague versus them, you win. Period.

re: Gate: Removal for jitte is usually in the form of discard or legend-ruling them out. Red is also a common addition to the gate, and the white splash versions of the gate exist (known as the White Picket Fence, at least where I'm from). Disk and O-stone just seem bad, but make sense for the mono-versions.

Also, agreed on the +2/+2 vs BB--Super Saiyan Tarmogoyfs (i.e. 8/9) are an achievement I'd love to hit in legacy.

lambert101
12-29-2012, 12:19 PM
Hi all! Been working on an updated list (more so the board). Board is almost a carbon copy of sdmatt's. Wanted to know people's thoughts with my main and his board.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
1 Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
3 Pithing Needle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
2 Scavenging Ooze ( may become Extripate and Gaddock Teeg #3's)

The main has been something I have developed along side Barbed Blightning. I was reading through the thread and think people are misunderstanding our version of rock/junk. It is a tempo list built quad lazier style to help with consistency. I understand some people prefer the GSZ or Stoneforge builds that are more toolboxish. This version is meant to play similar to a mix between maverick, death and taxes, and RUG. That being said our general game plan is to destroy the opponent's hand the first few turns through discard and then regroup faster than the opponent's through Dark Confidant and Goyf beats in a tempo fashion rather than control for a long game. The reason for the heavy removal is that it allows us to focus the discard on things that are hard/annoying to play through and destroy their other random jank. Just my two cents.

tldr: Dicard-Goyf-Bob-Knight-WIN

And for everything else their is mastercard (aka removal)

Mr. Safety
12-29-2012, 04:39 PM
I think Maelstrom Pulse has marginal relevance due to the prevalence of tokens and the possibility of a TES/Storm uprising at the GP; combo races Counterbalance and the lack of Force creates a favourable Storm environment. Pulse is also easier to cast, considering you'll probably want to fetch BG in the first two turns, but this downside is mitigated by Deathrite Shaman. Vindicate has value in mucking basic lands (or lands in general), but I think that's marginal for right now.

I actually haven't drawn Elspeth, but the second Garruk has been kicking BUG's butt when he lands. Deathtouch Wolves assassinate Planeswalkers and dodge Liliana's -2. I miss Dryad Arbor in this matchup since you could fetch for Arbor EOT to muck their Liliana, or just to have a non-relevant creature to sac, but I've been loving Forest #2.

-Matt

I've always thought the best reason for including a Dryad Arbor was so you could block a turn 1 Lackey on the draw. That's the main reason I keep it in there, really. I don't use equipment and Deathrite Shaman is a better ramp plan, making Arbor a lot worse. But being able to keep goblins off an explosive start even for one turn can be great.

Want to ask folks if this seems ok for a removal package:

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate

I know it's a lot (ten slots) but I focus much more on board control. Generally, how many removals does everyone run? (Note: playing 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Inquisition for discard, 3x Hymn in the sideboard)

sdematt
12-30-2012, 03:03 AM
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Vindicate

I'm running:

3 Swords
4 Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
+
2 Deed/EE (board)


I think we've got similar amounts of removal, and it should be fine.

-Matt

BlackStarDeceiver
12-30-2012, 07:36 AM
This list won the "End of the Year Weekend Legacy Cup" in Hanau, Germany last night. About 200 Players registered with a Top8 consisting of Rock, Jund, Jund, Dredge, Fowless BUG, Hightide,Goblins and Fowless BUG Delver. That means 20 copies of both Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman in the top 8.

Rock did win in the finals against Hightide (glances over to Matt ;D)

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Played by Guillaume Perbet.

Esper3k
12-30-2012, 08:17 AM
Man, no Knigts seems pretty ballsy to me.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-30-2012, 11:19 AM
Yeah it seems at first, but in a field oversaturated with Decay and Deathrite Shamans Lingering Souls was actually the better card.

I played BUG yesterday, had to play the mirror two times and whereever i looked i saw Shamans en masse.

Afterwards i did some testing egainst Esperblade and the most disturbing card from their side were either Souls or Jace.

Esper3k
12-30-2012, 11:54 AM
Yeah it seems at first, but in a field oversaturated with Decay and Deathrite Shamans Lingering Souls was actually the better card.

I played BUG yesterday, had to play the mirror two times and whereever i looked i saw Shamans en masse.

Afterwards i did some testing egainst Esperblade and the most disturbing card from their side were either Souls or Jace.

Oh I don't disagree with Lingering Souls being better, I thought it was ballsy to cut the Knights over Goyfs.

Mr. Safety
12-30-2012, 04:25 PM
This list won the "End of the Year Weekend Legacy Cup" in Hanau, Germany last night. About 200 Players registered with a Top8 consisting of Rock, Jund, Jund, Dredge, Fowless BUG, Hightide,Goblins and Fowless BUG Delver. That means 20 copies of both Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman in the top 8.

Rock did win in the finals against Hightide (glances over to Matt ;D)

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Played by Guillaume Perbet.

No Knights AND no Liliana's is definately ballsy...too ballsy. It seems like a narrow field with mostly local level brews, rather than a high-roller tourney. With High Tide and TWO Jund decks in the top 8, it's settled in my mind as a towny festival. What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

Esper3k
12-30-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Lilianas myself in Junk (the BB cost is what I don't like), but 'Goyfs over Knights seems odd to me when Junk isn't really a tempo deck.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-30-2012, 05:27 PM
No Knights AND no Liliana's is definately ballsy...too ballsy. It seems like a narrow field with mostly local level brews, rather than a high-roller tourney. With High Tide and TWO Jund decks in the top 8, it's settled in my mind as a towny festival. What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

Not at all, it was a very high level tournament with a shitload of experienced players from all over Europe. Today there was a PTQ for San Diego and a big Vintage tournament as well, so a lot of people made the trip for the weekend.

There were multiple PT competitors and some GP Top 8ers in the field, so i guess you might undervalue the strength of either Jund and/or Hightide ;)

Jund seems very good right now in the attrition wars that set up. Deathrite Esperblade was in the field as well, nearly no Force of Wills in the maindecks and still a big load of experienced Storm players (e.g. Timo Schünemannn, Christoph Alsheimer) weren't able to get the job done as easy as one might think.

Mr. Safety
12-30-2012, 06:15 PM
What breaks my interpretation is that it had 200 players. I'm just really surprised at the mix.

sdematt
12-30-2012, 07:05 PM
The deck that wins any tournament more than anything is the matchups. This ballsy list may not have faced decks where Lingering Souls was bad, and just rolled everyone all the way through. Matchup luck plays a huge role in making it to the top of a tournament, not just your deck or cards you're playing. Those Storm players who SHOULD have cleaned up probably ran headlong into the Miracles players and died :tongue:

-Matt

BlackStarDeceiver
12-31-2012, 03:55 AM
From what i've seen there was nearly no Miracles around, Counterbalance is weak with all those Decays around and the Blade lists preferred Deathrite/Souls instead of going Hybrid.
Canadian got handed to the bottom pretty early with a big load of competent players as well. Most of them went x-3 to early to have a shot at the money and dropped out to play sideevents.

I'll give this list some time to prove itself in testing and shar my results, but Knight (even though my favourite card of the game) underperformed since Deahtrite/Decay, Liliana should be in the mix though i guess.

I think we will get a metagame breakdown early nnext year (god i hate to say this)

@ Mr. Safety: I apologize for misunderstanding, sometimes i just fail at reading ;)

Mr. Safety
12-31-2012, 06:49 PM
No worries...just wanted to be clear that I knew it wasn't just a small-time event, it just seemed that way because of the top 8 mix.

psilance
12-31-2012, 07:15 PM
no gonna lie, part of me wants to jam that list for GP Denver this weekend.

sdematt
12-31-2012, 08:26 PM
So I ran this list last night:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of K.

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Garruk Relentless

--BOARD--

2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

This is the Miracles list I played against:

2 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
23

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top
8

2 Vendilion Clique
2

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
12

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
16

--BOARD--

2 Nevermore
1 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast

----


Suffice to say, this techy Miracles list may not be the usual fare, but it's what I'd play at GP Denver. The E. Tutor board gives you a ton of flexibility in finding your Combo (CB+Top) and in having answers to the big players in the format. Blood Moon hoses BUG, as does Rest in Peace. Moat screws most people over; Flusterstorm clears out Combo; REB mucks tons of things; Needle hits Liliana, Deathrite, and other stuff you might encounter; Nevermore is a tutorable answer to Lingering Souls. I had Sulfur Elemental and Meddling Mage in here, but I couldn't tutor creatures. Nevermore against BUG's Abrupt Decays is also pretty tight.

Point being, this deck also has tutorable and easily recurrable Engineered Explosives, which seemed to do the most work on my answers. We play seven sideboarded games and 5 preboard; I won 3 preboard and 5 postboard. Moat ended all the games I lose, usually in conjunction with a timely Engineered Explosives or a Rest in Peace to slow me down enough to lock me out, then Entreat the Angels happened.

Pithing Needle and Gaddock Teeg were the all-stars. Needle on Top usually won me the game (except when I got Moated and drew nothing), and Gaddock Teeg was a huge beating, forcing my opponent to dig for STP through my discard and other pressure.

Garruk Relentless was fine here, and usually pooped a few 2/2's and killed a Clique/got murdered by Clique. Clique really hurts Garruk, and opposing Planeswalker strategies, but it was fine. In the matchups where he's good, he's REALLY good, but this matchups, he's only okay due to Clique. I took out Tracker and Maze in my sideboarding, which made it really hard to defend my Garruk, but there's not much I can do. I think a single Garruk will stay in due to having more value in other matchups and people removing Clique against this deck (since it's not great).

I felt really good in this matchup, but my Forest could have been Dryad Arbor again. It can be awkward, but I think it might be fine. People kept encouraging me to put it back in due to the amount of Liliana. I may do that, but we'll see.

In all honesty, I'd probably cut Garruk #2 for Deathrite #4 to maximize the Deathrite wars, since he's just that good. Couple that with more removal and GSZ to fetch them, and we're winning the DRS wars. Rest in Peace just accidentally destroys us and BUG, though. Too many times I sat with somewhat pitiful Deathrite Shamans and 0/1 Goyfs. I think if you suspect RIP, board out a Goyf. Very simple.

All in all, I'm liking my list, a variant of this is what I'm going to play almost for sure in Denver.

-Matt

dballard
12-31-2012, 08:56 PM
@Matt - I'm wondering how often you're pulling off multiple removal (not including your own guys) with Maelstrom Pulse?

If you replaced them with Vindicates (to still kill lands if needed) could you remove a Wasteland to better diversify your mana pool? Maybe get that Dryad back in there?

Barbed Blightning
12-31-2012, 09:04 PM
So I ran this list last night:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of K.

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Garruk Relentless

--BOARD--

2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

This is the Miracles list I played against:

2 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
23

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top
8

2 Vendilion Clique
2

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
12

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
16

--BOARD--

2 Nevermore
1 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast

----


Suffice to say, this techy Miracles list may not be the usual fare, but it's what I'd play at GP Denver. The E. Tutor board gives you a ton of flexibility in finding your Combo (CB+Top) and in having answers to the big players in the format. Blood Moon hoses BUG, as does Rest in Peace. Moat screws most people over; Flusterstorm clears out Combo; REB mucks tons of things; Needle hits Liliana, Deathrite, and other stuff you might encounter; Nevermore is a tutorable answer to Lingering Souls. I had Sulfur Elemental and Meddling Mage in here, but I couldn't tutor creatures. Nevermore against BUG's Abrupt Decays is also pretty tight.

Point being, this deck also has tutorable and easily recurrable Engineered Explosives, which seemed to do the most work on my answers. We play seven sideboarded games and 5 preboard; I won 3 preboard and 5 postboard. Moat ended all the games I lose, usually in conjunction with a timely Engineered Explosives or a Rest in Peace to slow me down enough to lock me out, then Entreat the Angels happened.

Pithing Needle and Gaddock Teeg were the all-stars. Needle on Top usually won me the game (except when I got Moated and drew nothing), and Gaddock Teeg was a huge beating, forcing my opponent to dig for STP through my discard and other pressure.

Garruk Relentless was fine here, and usually pooped a few 2/2's and killed a Clique/got murdered by Clique. Clique really hurts Garruk, and opposing Planeswalker strategies, but it was fine. In the matchups where he's good, he's REALLY good, but this matchups, he's only okay due to Clique. I took out Tracker and Maze in my sideboarding, which made it really hard to defend my Garruk, but there's not much I can do. I think a single Garruk will stay in due to having more value in other matchups and people removing Clique against this deck (since it's not great).

I felt really good in this matchup, but my Forest could have been Dryad Arbor again. It can be awkward, but I think it might be fine. People kept encouraging me to put it back in due to the amount of Liliana. I may do that, but we'll see.

In all honesty, I'd probably cut Garruk #2 for Deathrite #4 to maximize the Deathrite wars, since he's just that good. Couple that with more removal and GSZ to fetch them, and we're winning the DRS wars. Rest in Peace just accidentally destroys us and BUG, though. Too many times I sat with somewhat pitiful Deathrite Shamans and 0/1 Goyfs. I think if you suspect RIP, board out a Goyf. Very simple.

All in all, I'm liking my list, a variant of this is what I'm going to play almost for sure in Denver.

-Matt

I definitely like it, too. 3 STP and zero tops concern me; I've been testing 2 tops and one library, and gotta say that is could easily turn into the inverse: two library one top. Library really is the nuts, and the draw has been super powerful versus blue control (all been said before.) However, top is great at dodging deed and helping you dig multiple times a turn. I wouldn't want to leave home without one.

In light of the nonbasic hate, I also think people may pick up Gobs at Denver, since nonbasic hate (esp. Blood Moon) is laughable against that deck. Thus, I'd want 4 STP. That's my two cents.

Otherwise, it looks much like what I and lambert101 are running, sans Lilly for GSZ. Solid.

lavafrogg
01-01-2013, 08:14 PM
apparently dropping knight of the preliminary for lingering souls is the new hotness across the metagame with junk taking down a big tourney with lingering souls and cabal therapy mainboard.

I just realized that I was page behind the times...

catching up with discussion I think lingering souls is better against the current meta. Abrupt decay and graveyard hate are pretty bad against spirit tokens An the same thing can be said about snapcaster mage and terminus.

sdematt
01-01-2013, 11:16 PM
apparently dropping knight of the preliminary for lingering souls is the new hotness across the metagame with junk taking down a big tourney with lingering souls and cabal therapy mainboard.

I just realized that I was page behind the times...

catching up with discussion I think lingering souls is better against the current meta. Abrupt decay and graveyard hate are pretty bad against spirit tokens An the same thing can be said about snapcaster mage and terminus.

I don't know, I feel Souls can be rocked pretty easily if you know what you're doing. E. Plagues are great, but I'd also say Deed, especially against Stoneblade, is VERY good.

-Matt

Esper3k
01-02-2013, 09:05 AM
I don't know, I feel Souls can be rocked pretty easily if you know what you're doing. E. Plagues are great, but I'd also say Deed, especially against Stoneblade, is VERY good.

-Matt

While Deed clears away most of Stoneblade's dudes (although I don't think it'll usually catch a Batterskull), my biggest problem with it against them is that it doesn't deal with Jace, which is really problematic for us once it resolves.

I actually like Maelstrom Pulse quite a bit since it can catch everything that matters (Jace, Batterskull, hordes of Lingering Soul tokens when they vomit/Intuition them out).

sdematt
01-02-2013, 10:19 AM
Or you can go with EE as well instead of Deed, but Deed just screws so many random decks. Oozes out of the board just hoses Lingering Souls, since I think Esper runs off the assumption the Deathrite players won't have enough activations to deal with the Lingering Souls before they get tokens out of them. I will not make that mistake :P

-Matt

godofallu
01-02-2013, 09:32 PM
Or you can go with EE as well instead of Deed, but Deed just screws so many random decks. Oozes out of the board just hoses Lingering Souls, since I think Esper runs off the assumption the Deathrite players won't have enough activations to deal with the Lingering Souls before they get tokens out of them. I will not make that mistake :P

-Matt

Just remember that usually Lingering Souls will be cast twice without giving the opposing player priority. So shaman and ooze can't ever actually target the spell while it is in the graveyard.

lavafrogg
01-02-2013, 09:37 PM
I don't know, I feel Souls can be rocked pretty easily if you know what you're doing. E. Plagues are great, but I'd also say Deed, especially against Stoneblade, is VERY good.

-Matt

so they bring in plagues against you to stop your souls, so they don't bring in perish? awesome.

sdematt
01-02-2013, 10:42 PM
Esperblade doesn't bring in Plagues, I'm talking BUG. BUG still brings in it's 1 Deed against us in an attempt to blowout, but, I'm not sure if that does enough for them. Esperblade still brings in the 1-2 Perish against you. Oh well.

So after a ton of Miracle testing (again, since it's relevant), I've come to the conclusion that to reliably beat Moat, you need Qasali Pridemage. I know this was said before, but I just want to say it again: Run Pridemage. If GSZ, 1-of is most likely fine. That's what I'll be doing.

I'll update more from Denver, but right now, I've got 5 hours before I leave to catch my flight. Boo at cheap 7am flights at an airport 2 hours away :/

-Matt

Hanni
01-02-2013, 10:44 PM
Esperblade doesn't bring in Plagues, I'm talking BUG. BUG still brings in it's 1 Deed against us in an attempt to blowout, but, I'm not sure if that does enough for them. Esperblade still brings in the 1-2 Perish against you. Oh well.

So after a ton of Miracle testing (again, since it's relevant), I've come to the conclusion that to reliably beat Moat, you need Qasali Pridemage. I know this was said before, but I just want to say it again: Run Pridemage. If GSZ, 1-of is most likely fine. That's what I'll be doing.

I'll update more from Denver, but right now, I've got 5 hours before I leave to catch my flight. Boo at cheap 7am flights at an airport 2 hours away :/

Or Vindicate.

For example, here's my modified Deadguy Rock list with Shaman's:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [ON] Infest

sdematt
01-02-2013, 10:45 PM
I'm already playing 2 Pulse.

-Matt

Hanni
01-02-2013, 10:47 PM
Shaman dodges Moat too, so as long as you can push some early damage through, he can close it out if you can't find an enchantment removal spell. Aggressively attacking their manabase can keep them off of 2WW, too. In the more tempo-oriented lists, anyway. Postboard Chokes alone can be a beating sometimes. Postboard Needles keeping them off Top can prevent them from hitting 2WW consistently, too.

sdematt
01-02-2013, 10:54 PM
While this did happen, I'm looking for answers after a Moat has successfully landed and Deathrite have run out of ammo due to RIP/Relic of Progenitus. Corner case, but it happened twice today.

-Matt

Hanni
01-02-2013, 10:56 PM
Like I said, Vindicate has been golden for me. Deals with so much randomness while complimenting an LD attack plan, if the opportunity presents itself to do so. Shaman accelerating into Vindicates makes them so much more effective than they used to be in my older lists, at any rate.

sdematt
01-02-2013, 10:58 PM
While true, juicing 4 Angel tokens and 3 Deathrite Shaman today was also pretty nuts.

-Matt

Esper3k
01-03-2013, 08:44 AM
Lingering Souls is pretty good against Moat too! :)

Megadeus
01-03-2013, 11:17 AM
Sorry if Im a bit off the current topic, but is natural order a possibility in here? It essentially gives you an awesome trump in fair matches. Then against control they get a 2 turn clock to terminus. I lovr the card and just aquired a set and was thinking NO Rock sounds sweet.

wcm8
01-03-2013, 11:40 AM
Sorry if Im a bit off the current topic, but is natural order a possibility in here? It essentially gives you an awesome trump in fair matches. Then against control they get a 2 turn clock to terminus. I lovr the card and just aquired a set and was thinking NO Rock sounds sweet.

I've seen decks use the NO Prog package as part of a sideboard strategy. 1 Progentitus, and 3-4 Natural Order can be brought in against matchups that warrant it. It's a nice surprise tactic, and a lot of control decks will likely be siding out their counterspells against Rock in games 2/3. You can easily enable it on turn 3 via Deathrite shaman, and either sac the shaman or a Dryad Arbor you've fetched up. I don't think I'd really want to play it maindeck though.

Also, you don't have to limit yourself to just Progenitus. There are numerous fat green creatures that'd be worth NO'ing into. Terastodon, Worldspine Wurm, etc.

Mr. Safety
01-03-2013, 08:33 PM
Is anyone else thinking that Scryb Ranger is tech with full sets of Shaman and Knight? I've been testing it and Ranger doubling up Shaman seems better than even Scavenging Ooze. Maybe I'm wrong, but the flexibility of racing with 4 drained each turn rather than just gaining life while hosing the graveyard seems really good. I've mentioned it before, but maybe folks think it's kind of a bad idea? Genuinely curious...it's been great for me.

godofallu
01-03-2013, 09:56 PM
Sorry if Im a bit off the current topic, but is natural order a possibility in here? It essentially gives you an awesome trump in fair matches. Then against control they get a 2 turn clock to terminus. I lovr the card and just aquired a set and was thinking NO Rock sounds sweet.

I've been rocking the combo in my sideboard in Bant and it has been great. Never tried it in Rock but I did throw the idea out there a few pages back. I do think someone should test it. I'd try it out myself but I don't run enough GSZ to make it good enough, and i'm not sure I really want to add more.

Claymore
01-03-2013, 11:36 PM
I'm kind of meh on using Scryb Ranger. Sounds great but it requires some set up and the creature itself is largely useless. In my opinion it borders on win-more for Rock based on my testing and playing against Bant lists that use it.

Megadeus
01-04-2013, 01:20 AM
I would try out the NO SB, but I dont play this deck... Ive just always been intrigued with the Rock (I started with Nic Fit) as it fits the style of play I enjoy, and I like the fact that NO is a very powerful single card combo that can just blow games out.

feline
01-05-2013, 04:53 PM
Still many rounds to go, but so far Matt is 3 wins 0 losses at the Grand Prix in Denver.

Megadeus
01-05-2013, 08:55 PM
Still many rounds to go, but so far Matt is 3 wins 0 losses at the Grand Prix in Denver.

Is that with 3 byes?

feline
01-05-2013, 09:09 PM
I don't know, I didn't think about that, and if that's the case, then I wish I didn't post that now because I feel silly!

Megadeus
01-05-2013, 09:15 PM
I don't know, I didn't think about that, and if that's the case, then I wish I didn't post that now because I feel silly!

Hahaha 3-0 the easy way ftw!

.Ix
01-05-2013, 10:07 PM
YEAHHHHHHHHHH!! *fistpump*

Guillaume Perbet took 1st place in Frankfurt with this:


3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize


About time someone won with souls/therapy :D