[Deck] The Rock

[Esper3k]

Sure Thrun is better in the Jund matchup, but I have Linvala in there for the BUG match as well as the Elves and other creature matchups. Shutting off Deathrites is huge, flying is also good.

-Matt

That's fair. I'm just surprised you didn't have anything better to bring in. I think I'd want the Maelstrom Pulse instead.

[sdematt]

I was thinking about bringing Deeds in, but I wasn't sure. Still testing, but not much time to do so. I'm currently at:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Linvala
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam (but this might swing back to Elspeth, who knows)

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Safety, I've made a couple changes. I still am running the Sculler and stronghold but the 2 spots I mentioned (loam and Ooze) I've turned into Maze and Knight. Neither has really come into play (or at least I can't tell with knight) but I feel I've got more to do with that than with the Ooze and Loam. I'm still using the Chokes in the sideboard spots (2).

I'm still wondering if the Sculler is better or not. I like having the clock but I have run into the pyroclasm situation. Lucky for me I had charm to regen my team.

I've also not had an issue with the online meta since the daily I mentioned in that previous post. That being said, All I've played against was non-burn decks. Granted I've played Belcher twice but they've either fizzled or I've had Pulse/Charm to deal with tokens. Better luck than good.

On the Youtubes... New computer doesn't like to record Modo (Camtatsia's a PoS on it) and I don't feel like troubleshooting so instead, I'm looking at alternatives (Fraps is also weird on it...). My old computer is still around, even though it's almost 10 years old, but I've physically damaged it somehow (would need to weld the monitor frame to fix... that ain't happening). I'll try to have something by Sunday.

[KobeBryan]

i had a very hard time against UW stoneblade.

counters counters counters, supreme verdict, plow, snapcaster plow.

I don't run thrun and i do run 1 elspeth. but elspeth never sees the light of day.

[.Ix]

Came 2nd last night.

Bug: 1-1-1
Helm Combo Deck: 2-0
Esperblade: 2-1
MonoB Pox: 1-1-1

Came second and won my own Misty Rainforest!

-Matt

Congrats on the finish, Matt! How did you end up with the 1-1-1s? I tend to get a lot of those myself, mostly by being a ahead but unable to close in time.

[sdematt]

Yeah, the BUG match. Game 1 went long where I get him to 2, but then he kills my guys and gets Jace online. Jace into Sylvan, Sylvan into Darkblast my Dryad Arbor, and I brick for 6 turns on lands and die. Then we go to Game 2 and he gets out 2 DRS to my one, but I get Ooze online but not enough Green, so I have to Pithing Needle the DRS's. I win, but time is called when we shuffled for game 3.

Time was called in Game 3 of MonoBlack Pox. I MAY have won that game, but Pox is NOT fun to play against at all. Closing the game in time is always the hard part for sure. The GSZ's really help since instead of drawing another, say, Goyf which might be small, you can go get a Knight or what have you.

Are you running against UW Stoneblade or Esperblade? Do they have Terminuses or just Verdict? Either way, more Gaddock Teeg, Needle, and if you needed to, Thrun :)

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Safety, I've made a couple changes. I still am running the Sculler and stronghold but the 2 spots I mentioned (loam and Ooze) I've turned into Maze and Knight. Neither has really come into play (or at least I can't tell with knight) but I feel I've got more to do with that than with the Ooze and Loam. I'm still using the Chokes in the sideboard spots (2).

I'm still wondering if the Sculler is better or not. I like having the clock but I have run into the pyroclasm situation. Lucky for me I had charm to regen my team.

I've also not had an issue with the online meta since the daily I mentioned in that previous post. That being said, All I've played against was non-burn decks. Granted I've played Belcher twice but they've either fizzled or I've had Pulse/Charm to deal with tokens. Better luck than good.

On the Youtubes... New computer doesn't like to record Modo (Camtatsia's a PoS on it) and I don't feel like troubleshooting so instead, I'm looking at alternatives (Fraps is also weird on it...). My old computer is still around, even though it's almost 10 years old, but I've physically damaged it somehow (would need to weld the monitor frame to fix... that ain't happening). I'll try to have something by Sunday.

'I'd rather be lucky than good.' >>> one of my favorite phrases to use, lol.

So you're using Golgari Charm? I've been debating that for a while...mostly because I don't use Lingering Souls and everyone else IS. It dodges my dudes, hoses others. For me, the tournament I played in, I didn't face burn at all. The removal I faced was in the form of Innocent Blood (the Gate) and bounce (Aether Vial in Bomberman.) Sculler lived through those because I had more dangerous threats on the board or a Dryad Arbor to sac in the Innocent Blood games. If you're the beatdown, Sculler lives a lot longer because they have to deal with bigger threats (Goyf, Knight, Liliana) instead of Sculler. I think Sculler is good tech, but I won't be using 4 anymore in the maindeck. I'll likely cut to 2-3, or even go to Hymns maindeck if folks decide to bring burn decks. It's a crap-shoot for me...I don't know the local scene very well yet, only have one event under my belt.

[.Ix]

The removal I faced was in the form of Innocent Blood (the Gate) and bounce (Aether Vial in Bomberman.) Sculler lived through those because I had more dangerous threats on the board or a Dryad Arbor to sac in the Innocent Blood games. If you're the beatdown, Sculler lives a lot longer because they have to deal with bigger threats (Goyf, Knight, Liliana) instead of Sculler. I think Sculler is good tech, but I won't be using 4 anymore in the maindeck. I'll likely cut to 2-3, or even go to Hymns maindeck if folks decide to bring burn decks. It's a crap-shoot for me...I don't know the local scene very well yet, only have one event under my belt.

Tidehollow is quite good. Even if he eats removal it's still a 1-for-1 that didn't kill your best creature. Tried it myself a few times, and I occasionally play it over Inquisition when I want more bodies. I'm intrigued -- I didn't know Bomberman was a deck in Legacy.

Matt:

I drew against esperblade just recently. Lost game 1 to a topdecked Jace, won game 2 by playing Souls, Jitte, Shaman, Library while he tried to stop me using Darkblast, Swords, and removal until he ran out and eventually lost the game. Time was called before the third game started. Some time ago, I faced a traditional junk matchup with a different build. I had Moms and was even grindier. We hit stalemate situations and I couldn't find Souls. Game 1 took around 40 minutes. It was awful.

Right now I'm really looking at options to speed the game up. 3 GSZ 4 knight is good, but I think I need something green that's always fat. Thrun fits the bill, and I'll definitely try him out. Garruk Wildspeaker might actually be decent in the souls deck, too. +1 lets us flashback souls (and cast other awesome 2-drops) and swing for another +8 the next turn. Will try him once I establish a local playgroup. ( I just recently moved to a city with no Magic scene. :[ )

[Barbed Blightning]

Went 5-2 today at NELC, good enough for a Badlands. Lost to double mirran crusader in Deadguy and Craterhoof in elves. Any advice for the elves matchup, aside from the obvious deed/charm/plague plan?

Wins were against burn, ANT (won game one with zero discard and goyf beats), Sneak/show (blew up a sneak attack with golgari charm), TES and Imperial Painter.

Same deck as usual, but I think I will bump GSZ up to 2 and drop vindicate, as much as I hate to. :/ Sideboard needs tweaking for Edison next week

[damionblackgear]

Went 5-2 today at NELC, good enough for a Badlands. Lost to double mirran crusader in Deadguy and Craterhoof in elves. Any advice for the elves matchup, aside from the obvious deed/charm/plague plan?

Wins were against burn, ANT (won game one with zero discard and goyf beats), Sneak/show (blew up a sneak attack with golgari charm), TES and Imperial Painter.

Same deck as usual, but I think I will bump GSZ up to 2 and drop vindicate, as much as I hate to. :/ Sideboard needs tweaking for Edison next week

Aim for things that either produce multiple mana a turn or draw cards. Llanawar don't really matter to much.

[sdematt]

Aim for things that either produce multiple mana a turn or draw cards. Llanawar don't really matter to much.

Yeah, Craterhoof is an asshole. I lost to that guy too. Honestly, just nuke their team. If it's game 1 it's much harder. Out of the board, you slow them down with Linvala.

-Matt

[Leto]

Hey there, greetings from Germany. Piloted Rock first time last weekend after playing DGA for 1,5 years now.
It was a ~50 People-Tournament. Meta is traditionally full of aggro and control-Decks (RUG, Jund, BUG, UWx-Blade, Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick) and Fringe/Rouge-Decks (Enchantress, Lands, MUD...) with nearly no Combo. Played this:

MAINBOARD
3x Scrubland
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Vindicate
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
4x Engineered Plague
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Lingering Souls

MUs:
vs. RUG 2:1
vs. MUD 2:0
vs. Goblins 1:1
vs. UWr Blade 2:1
vs. BUG 1:2
vs. BUG 2:0
10:5 and placed 4th.
All players (I played against) were experienced players who make Top 8 regular, so I was pretty pleased with the performance of the deck. It was mainly to the raw power of the deck I did so well, being superior in both, fat guys and giving answers to opposing threats. In a lot of Games, Vindicate was the MVP (Decay and Shaman ignoring, it is widely known how good they are), destroying the last hope of my opponents (resolved Jace/Jitte/Skull...) or just manascrewing them (4 or 5 Games my Opponents were on 0-1 Land as the games ended).

Thoughts only for my non-Combo-Meta:
Is Discard viable at all? Less than 5 cards seems to be bad, but the 5 cards did not impress me either.
Would it be viable to force the Manadenial, playing Sinkhole Main? What to cut?

I will swap Tracker into the Main for Teeg, as he underperformed hard. Also i was not really impressed by my Sideboard. Plagues and Souls did their job, rest was pretty useless.

have a nice weekend everyone =)

[AggroSteve]

i have just seen quite a intresting tech in the jund thread, and thought it might be intresting for us as well


I played this today:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
1 Damnation
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Surgical Extractions
2 Obstinate Baloth

I started 3-0, then cratered hard.

Basically:

R1: Kolt with Jund Mirror (2-0)
R2: David with UW Stoneblade (2-1)
R3: Matt with BUG (2-0)
R4: Steve with Sneak and Show (1-2)
R5: Donny with UW Miracles (1-2)
R6: Graeme with Merfolk (0-2 I think, I was out so I wasn't really playing well or paying attention, which I don't like to do, but I was upset at losing the last 2 rounds. Still shouldn't do it)

Basically, Strangleroot Geists were awesome all day. Matt thoughtseized one on the play game 2, turn 1, in anticipation. They broke through everything, were great, lots of damage, blockers (not necessary, but they could in theory). I never cast Cabal Therapy at all, sadly, but it should be good.

In round 4, game 3, I mulled to 5, kept Deathrite, Confidant, Cabal Therapy, Surgical, Pyroblast or something. Figured, against Sneak and Show, that's a good hand if I draw a land. A 4-card hand would not have gotten there really, and in that case I could at least Therapy SnT, Surgical it, then cast Shaman and re-therapy?

But I didn't draw a land, and he SnT me turn 3 with Force backup. Not much I can do.

R5, game 3, I made a pretty huge mistake. He drew pretty good, he started with T1 top, T2 counterbalance, T3 rest in peace (waiting for helm), and I managed to nuke everything basically, except the top. He had nothing in hand, and I always had two creatures, but he always got Terminus-es, Swords, and the like.

The mistake: I had Bob and Liliana at 3, and just cast Geist. He was at 17, and had no hand. I figured I could sac the geist to make 5 power, and that would eat up a turn. He top-decked his one-of Supreme Verdict (he did have top still). It was a stupid mistake.

I finally got a BBE but his top card was Entreat the Angels. GG. On turn 20 or something.

So I don't know. The deck runs awesome, Geists are awesome, I think I need a better SB vs. Miracles, SnT and Jund. The rest takes care of itself.

Chains of Mephistopheles were nice against Dave in R2G2, but other than that, meh. I am not sure if they should be in there, and definitely not 2. Oh, well.

I am going to try Garruk the Veil-Cursed or however the hell the flip-card Garruk calls himself now. Pretty solid against Miracles and Jund.

As for SnT, eeeeh. Annoying, but maybe with a bit better luck, the deck isn't that scary. Steve had some wild tech, Stifle, Wipe Away and such... so there's that.

I don't know if I even care about Dredge, it's almost non existent, it's nice to have Surgicals, but maybe 2 would be fine.

I would try something like this, maybe?

3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Garruk the Flip-Card
2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Take something out

This deck is significantly harder to board for. I think the Jittes could be sick. I like Garruk.

Finally, the store, Heroic Dreams in Pickering, east-end of Toronto, great location, great people. Great opponents. I always enjoy the places I play at, this was my first time here, and it was great. Might as well say it.

edit:

Matt, Miracles sucks. It's a very annoying match-up. Top alone is such a pain in the ass. Donny was a good player, so that didn't help, but I am not cherishing that match-up. Maybe Garruk is the solution.

maybe strangleroot geist would be another way to maximize the effect of cabal therapys, plus with haste he gives us a way to fight planeswalker after a boardsweep. He obviously helps against anyone playing liliana, and would also be fetchable with GSZ, and in nonwhite (and noncombo) matchups he is straight up card-advantage
the only problem i got with him is his manacost of GG

so what do u guys think, could he may be worth a try?

[Barbed Blightning]

Yeah, Craterhoof is an asshole. I lost to that guy too. Honestly, just nuke their team. If it's game 1 it's much harder. Out of the board, you slow them down with Linvala.

-Matt

I did, I played her... the he dropped cradle, NO.... and yeah. I'm not so certain about linvala anymore, she seems to hit a turn too late.

I'll probably go back to two teeg in the board for Edison.

@geist: While Jund and us have a similar core, it's a different animal altogether. Jund wants to overpower it's opponent as fast as possible before they can assume any sort of lock or combo. Geist helps since it provides an incremental boost through combat and loves Cabal Therapy.

My philosophy with Junk, however, is that we're supposed to be a deck with answers to everything. That should be reflected in our creatures as well: knight interacts with manabases, bob our hand size, drs graveyards, and goyf their life total (plus I see him as combo hate, as a way to follow up our discard with a faster clock than they need to reassemble their hand).

Geist is just a beatstick. A cool one, but still just a beatstick.

[Mr. Safety]

i have just seen quite a intresting tech in the jund thread, and thought it might be intresting for us as well



maybe strangleroot geist would be another way to maximize the effect of cabal therapys, plus with haste he gives us a way to fight planeswalker after a boardsweep. He obviously helps against anyone playing liliana, and would also be fetchable with GSZ, and in nonwhite (and noncombo) matchups he is straight up card-advantage
the only problem i got with him is his manacost of GG

so what do u guys think, could he may be worth a try?

I've been debating a set of Bloodghast to get my body count up higher, which is the biggest reason I play Sculler. He's tech with Liliana and just doesn't go away, like your favorite batman undar-roos with holes. Strangleroot is interesting...but awkward with the mana (double green.) I play one Eternal Witness, and that is awkward enough.

I think Cabal Therapy makes Strangleroot playable, but I don't play Therapies, I'm too chicken, lol. I'd rather play targeted discard that doesn't make me guess (Seize, IoK) or play 2-for-1's (Sculler, Hymn.) I think, for the most part, playing dumb beats isn't going to get very far, even with mild synergy like Strangleroot. I think Lingering Souls is the right tech with Therapy because of the card advantage, and pure efficiency. If I'm playing a green spell for 2 mana, I want Goyf, Sylvan Library, or GSZ >>> Deathrite. I think all three of those are better than Strangleroot.

[sdematt]

GSZ into Deathrite for us is VERY good.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

came to the same conclusion, souls tokens are in theory the better therapy fodder, but i hate that card, i tried it a few times and it really did not fit my playstyle. nevertheless i would love to play cabal therapy, and it is really not that hard to guess what your opponent might have in hands and if you have no clue just call whatever would be most disturbing in the given scenario, but i do not want to use lingering souls as a flashback enabler, and surely i would not want to sacrifice a knight or any other creature in our deck (well maybe dryad arbor, but thats it)
strangleroot geist has allmost the same synergy with therapy as soul-token would have, but the manacost is really awkward

has anyone else a suggestion what could be used as a flashbackenabler for therapy aside of the obvious 2 that were mentioned? Bloodghast in my opinion does not work in this deck

@ mr. safety: the idea of tidehollow sculler though is quite intresting, would you mind sharing your most recent decklist with this little guy and maybe describe how the tech with him and liliana works,... i still do not get that
sadly tidehollow sculler does not work with cabal therapy :P

[Kich867]

I tried my planeswalker heavy list at Jupiter again, got 27th out of 74, so doing slightly better. I should have gone with my original plan of a Stoneforge package, I honestly feel like I would have gone 6-1 had I done that.

Matches:
Hypergenesis 0-2 (of course)
Team Italia 2-1
Birthing Pod 2-1
BUG Tempo 0-2
Sam Black's Zombies 0-2
Maverick 2-1
BUG Control 2-0

I feel like I should not have lost to bug tempo or zombies, but, it happened. I felt like if I had a batterskull was on the board, that would not have occurred haha.

[Mr. Safety]

came to the same conclusion, souls tokens are in theory the better therapy fodder, but i hate that card, i tried it a few times and it really did not fit my playstyle. nevertheless i would love to play cabal therapy, and it is really not that hard to guess what your opponent might have in hands and if you have no clue just call whatever would be most disturbing in the given scenario, but i do not want to use lingering souls as a flashback enabler, and surely i would not want to sacrifice a knight or any other creature in our deck (well maybe dryad arbor, but thats it)
strangleroot geist has allmost the same synergy with therapy as soul-token would have, but the manacost is really awkward

has anyone else a suggestion what could be used as a flashbackenabler for therapy aside of the obvious 2 that were mentioned? Bloodghast in my opinion does not work in this deck

@ mr. safety: the idea of tidehollow sculler though is quite intresting, would you mind sharing your most recent decklist with this little guy and maybe describe how the tech with him and liliana works,... i still do not get that
sadly tidehollow sculler does not work with cabal therapy :P

I was unclear: I meant that Bloodghast is tech with Liliana. My most current list is below:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Misty Rainforest (still hunting down more Marsh Flats...)
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Treetop Village


(61 cards)

Sideboard:
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Plague
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Surgical Extraction

[sdematt]

I like Golgari Charm's flexibility in taking out all the Elves, but with souls tokens, I think I'd want to use Zealous Persecution instead.

Natural Order right now seems very good as a ballbreaking midrange play. Think for a second: how does one race Progenitus in this format? Most people don't have 10/10 Knights anymore, nor do they play Perish in the side (unless you're Esperblade). I was playing against Elves when I got Progenitus'd, and they just had too many blockers for me to get through. Running Perish might not be a bad idea, but nuking your own guys seems super subpar.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

Let's not forget Craterhoof-- their typical play. Haste and +x/+x gives you no time at all.

Id still play charm even with souls. In the cases you want that mode it's probably going to profit on your side. I play deed for this reason.

[.Ix]

I like Golgari Charm's flexibility in taking out all the Elves, but with souls tokens, I think I'd want to use Zealous Persecution instead.

Natural Order right now seems very good as a ballbreaking midrange play. Think for a second: how does one race Progenitus in this format? Most people don't have 10/10 Knights anymore, nor do they play Perish in the side (unless you're Esperblade). I was playing against Elves when I got Progenitus'd, and they just had too many blockers for me to get through. Running Perish might not be a bad idea, but nuking your own guys seems super subpar.

-Matt

I've been thinking about this for a while as well, and the best solution I've found is running Ensnaring Bridge in the board. We can still finish the game with Souls and Deathrites with Bridge in play. Against Elves, it turns off all of their finishers (we'll still die after a glimpse turn, though). It should work well against Emrakul and Griselbrand decks, and even Reanimator. I've never actually played the card, since I didn't face any relevant opponents when I ran these in the board, but it looks good on paper.

[sdematt]

I've been thinking about this for a while as well, and the best solution I've found is running Ensnaring Bridge in the board. We can still finish the game with Souls and Deathrites with Bridge in play. Against Elves, it turns off all of their finishers (we'll still die after a glimpse turn, though). It should work well against Emrakul and Griselbrand decks, and even Reanimator. I've never actually played the card, since I didn't face any relevant opponents when I ran these in the board, but it looks good on paper.

On paper, I agree, but don't they have that random Elf in their deck that blows up artifacts?

-Matt

[sdematt]

Oh balls, Chains of Mephistopheles also hurts their Glimpse turn. Derp. Totally forgot about that as well.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

Oh balls, Chains of Mephistopheles also hurts their Glimpse turn. Derp. Totally forgot about that as well.

-Matt

Annnd this deck just jumped about 200 bucks to make

[Claymore]

Natural Order right now seems very good as a ballbreaking midrange play. Think for a second: how does one race Progenitus in this format?

If you're gonna try NO/Prog, then I'd suggest including Dryad Arbor in the main. Not sure if that was obvious or not, but it came up in the Nic Fit thread a few pages back.

What do you bring this in against though? Jund with Liliana (though you likely have Souls out I guess)? Miracles with Terminus? Elves who Crater you to death? I like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge better, where at least you have a package to use against Sneak and Show for the decks that are dropping Knight.


Annnd this deck just jumped about 200 bucks to make

Don't forget, we're running white. If you start the Ensaring Bridge train, build a tutor sideboard that banks on Enlightened Tutor. Then you can bring in Cursed Scroll, which kills everything in Jund. ('cept Goyf)

[.Ix]

On paper, I agree, but don't they have that random Elf in their deck that blows up artifacts?

-Matt

They do, actually, and they could blow it up with one of their tutors and bounce it over and over to kill any Bridges that might come up. We'll have to kill the Symbiotes. That's definitely the hard part. And they could still just run us over with weenies with Bridge in play. I don't know if we can do that reliably without Stoneforge/Jitte, in which case they would probably blow up the Jitte. It will work better if they're on the NO plan though, like when you hit a glimpse off discard and kill their first few dudes forcing them to go NO. They'll still have 7 outs (4 GSZ, 2 NO and one Viridian Shaman) which is quite a lot for a "trump card" SB slot. :/ Then again, they also have to deal with the E.Plagues that we run. The combination of both cards against them might be good enough.

[Barbed Blightning]

Golgari charm. Fucks their dudes, they have almost no way to deal with it. Yes, plague does create a permanently hostile environment, but it can be dealt with as said earlier, and, depending on how fast they go off, may be a turn too late.

[.Ix]

Oh wow. That's right. Golgari Charm would work. Zealous Persecution, too.

[sdematt]

Claymore, I was talking about how good it was to run in general, not specifically for us. It seems like a good Combo in this meta.

Gotta love how Chains jumped since it's played as a 1-2 of in the sideboard of a single Jund deck. Cool story.

-Matt

[Kich867]

I'm going to cave pretty soon, buckle down, and just get Goyfs. Probably not until next month, but I think they're necessary at this point. I'm going to fiddle around for a little while longer with Stoneforges, but looking at Matt's list earlier, just looking at the list makes it super clear to me how necessary Goyfs are. It just looks more flexible and better equipped to handle whatever the fuck compared to my list right now. The only thing I would probably change is to just drop Lingering Souls all together, put Goyf up to 4, Thoughtseize up to 3, and add a Gaddock Teeg maindeck. Which opens up a sideboard slot.

Here's the list I'll be running by the end of next month: I may make Hymn's cabal therapies, since I'm quite good with them and Dryad Arbor is 85% of the time what I sac to it anyways.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard:
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Pithing Needle
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Ulvenwald Tracker

[Claymore]

Ah, I gotcha. It does seem pretty good in general to catch decks off guard. I'm also feeling pretty good about grabbing up a $30 Chains a few months ago when starcity crashed the market with their sale, haha. Too bad its Italian :/.

Wanted to back to:
I

Thoughts only for my non-Combo-Meta: Is Discard viable at all? Less than 5 cards seems to be bad, but the 5 cards did not impress me either. Would it be viable to force the Manadenial, playing Sinkhole Main? What to cut?

I will swap Tracker into the Main for Teeg, as he underperformed hard. Also i was not really impressed by my Sideboard. Plagues and Souls did their job, rest was pretty useless.

I feel 5-6 discard is correct. The discard still has uses as preemptive removal, and with the next tournament you will be more prepared to combat an influx of combo decks that attempt to take advantage of a mid-range venue. In any case, for this build I would rather run discard over Sinkholes main board. Sideboard is a different and very interesting story...but for the main board, I agree with whoever said that junk is focused on an overall answer box versus a sole line of attack.


Kich, with the zero therapy fodder I would rather run Inquisitions or Duress over Hymn unless you expect the meta to have zero combo, with Hymns in the sideboard. Most of the decks posted in here split thoughtseize and inquisition since targeted turn 1 discard is so important to our counterless interaction. Coming from nic fit myself, Therapy is definitely awesome, but we can't afford to sack anything but Arbor (once). Best case scenario is you turn 1 drs, turn two therapy, fetch arbor, flashback, and lose no tempo due to drs...not sure how often that will go off though, especially since you give up your turn 1 discard.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm going to cave pretty soon, buckle down, and just get Goyfs. Probably not until next month, but I think they're necessary at this point. I'm going to fiddle around for a little while longer with Stoneforges, but looking at Matt's list earlier, just looking at the list makes it super clear to me how necessary Goyfs are. It just looks more flexible and better equipped to handle whatever the fuck compared to my list right now. The only thing I would probably change is to just drop Lingering Souls all together, put Goyf up to 4, Thoughtseize up to 3, and add a Gaddock Teeg maindeck. Which opens up a sideboard slot.

Here's the list I'll be running by the end of next month: I may make Hymn's cabal therapies, since I'm quite good with them and Dryad Arbor is 85% of the time what I sac to it anyways.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard:
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Pithing Needle
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Ulvenwald Tracker

I'd personally try to make room for Lilly, even as a 2-of. That said, that's always my opion regarding Junk lists.

[Mr. Safety]

Couple of thoughts on my mind:

1) Getting some Golgari Charms for my sideboard, because I run zero lingering souls. I'm thinking two in the board, and swapping out the Engineered Plague/something else for it.

2) I have seen some folks talking about Ensnaring Bridge and I *almost* took it as sideboard tech to my local tournament recently...but I don't like how it hoses Goyfs and Knights. I rely on the targeted removal, Deeds, and Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold tech for battling opposing fatties (except Emrakul and Progenitus) I think Oblivion Ring, or even Angel of Despair, is better tech against Show and Tell. For elves? I think Engineered Explosives needs a mention, and as I stated earlier I'm looking into Golgari Charm.

3) What do folks think is the best Storm hate? I'm currently running two Ethersworn Canonists (and 1x Enlightened Tutor) in my sideboard. Is this good enough, considering maindeck 5 targeted discards, 2x Sculler, 2x Hymn, 2x Liliana, and 3x Surgical Extraction in the sideboard? It sure seems like enough hate for combo, in general, but I'd be curious what others think. I'm definately playing a strong hand-disruption strategy.

4) Natural Order is on my purchase list!!! I want that for my deck, and I want it bad! I'll probably play 4x Natural Order in my sideboard along with Progenitus (which I already have) I absolutely love it, possibly enough for maindeck inclusion.

[Claymore]

Good points on Ensnaring... I'm going to try out a tutor board, but will have to see just how the Bridge fits in. I see it more as an emergency stop gap, and you can still ping from behind it with Deathrite.

Along with Bridge I am going to test

2-3x E Tutor
1x Chains (Combo)
1x E Plague (gobs, elves, spirit tokens)
1x Cursed Scroll (Jund)
1x Ensnaring Bridge

Anything else of interest? Haven't fleshed out the rest of the board but some mix of Deed, Hymns, Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity, Golgari Charm, Surgical seems to be in order... Too many options.

If I simply merge my former sideboard with new developments and cut Garruk, Virtue's Ruin, and Tracker (effectively replaced by Cursed Scroll), I get this 20 card sideboard:

Tutor Enabler
2 Enlightened Tutor

Aggro/Swarm Combo
2 Pernicious Deed (Tutor)
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague (Tutor)
1 Ensnaring Bridge (Tutor)

Graveyard Combo
3 Surgical Extraction

Combo/Control
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg (GSZ Tutor)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles (Tutor)

Attrition
1 Cursed Scroll (Jund) (Tutor)

Burn
2 Timely Reinforcements

Timely Reinforcements seems a little meh due to it not saving me against Burn once...plus being very weak to Skull Crack. I almost want Leyline of Sanctity there instead, but being less than 4 and having a high CC is troublesome. Perhaps Spike Feeder so I can fetch it with GSZ.

Cursed Scroll looks odd, but is my proposed, untested swing card against Jund - assuming I get value before it gets Decayed. Kills a small Liliana, Bob, DRS, and BBE.

Chains is similarly untested, but evidently was enough for Jund to put it to use at x1-2. Enlightened Tutor lets us find it very quickly, along with Bob and Sylvan Library.

Will think on what to cut as I'm cooking/eating dinner, haha.

[Mr. Safety]

Good points on Ensnaring... I'm going to try out a tutor board, but will have to see just how the Bridge fits in. I see it more as an emergency stop gap, and you can still ping from behind it with Deathrite.

Along with Bridge I am going to test

2-3x E Tutor
1x Chains (Combo)
1x E Plague (gobs, elves, spirit tokens)
1x Cursed Scroll (Jund)
1x Ensnaring Bridge

Anything else of interest? Haven't fleshed out the rest of the board but some mix of Deed, Hymns, Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity, Golgari Charm, Surgical seems to be in order... Too many options.

If I simply merge my former sideboard with new developments and cut Garruk, Virtue's Ruin, and Tracker (effectively replaced by Cursed Scroll), I get this 19 card sideboard:

Tutor Enabler
2 Enlightened Tutor

Aggro/Swarm Combo
2 Pernicious Deed (Tutor)
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague (Tutor)

Graveyard Combo
3 Surgical Extraction

Combo/Control
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg (GSZ Tutor)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles (Tutor)

Attrition
1 Cursed Scroll (Jund) (Tutor)

Burn
2 Timely Reinforcements

Timely Reinforcements seems a little meh due to it not saving me against Burn once...plus being very weak to Skull Crack. I almost want Leyline of Sanctity there instead, but being less than 4 and having a high CC is troublesome. Perhaps Spike Feeder so I can fetch it with GSZ.

Cursed Scroll looks odd, but is my proposed, untested swing card against Jund - assuming I get value before it gets Decayed. Kills a small Liliana, Bob, DRS, and BBE.

Chains is similarly untested, but evidently was enough for Jund to put it to use at x1-2. Enlightened Tutor lets us find it very quickly, along with Bob and Sylvan Library.

Will think on what to cut as I'm cooking/eating dinner, haha.

What will Cursed Scroll bring to your game? I have found that Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library, both excelling at feeding you the removal you need, are a better game plan. Junk can't really pull off Pox, even with Liliana in the deck. Better to rely on card quality/advantage and simply outplay Jund.

[jin]

Why does Rock need Cursed Scroll against Jund? I thought Jund was a good match up? At least that's what Jund people say.

[Claymore]

The same reason Punishing Jund plays Punishing Fire - repeated removal. If Jund starts to get big, which is likely considering Punishing Jund placed 3 out of top 4 at SCG Atlanta, then I can see Scroll as our own answer to Fire.

[Mr. Safety]

The same reason Punishing Jund plays Punishing Fire - repeated removal. If Jund starts to get big, which is likely considering Punishing Jund placed 3 out of top 4 at SCG Atlanta, then I can see Scroll as our own answer to Fire.

Why play fair? Cursed Scroll is far too fair. I think a better option exists, and one I'm personally going to work on using: Natural Order + Progenitus. Think about it for a few minutes, and then ask yourself: 'Why would I play a bad Punishing/Grove, or in other words a strictly worse Grim Lavamancer, when I could instead play combo and put them on a two turn clock?'

For me, the answer is pretty simple. Dryad Arbor and Deathrite Shaman, both fetchable by GSZ, allow NO-Pro to be an alternative angle for this deck, and one that doesn't play fair.

[Petree]

Jarad's Order --> Loyal Retainer + Something awesome; Iono, Elesh Norn.. Etc...---> I win possibly turn 3 if you run mox or deathrite..

Just a thought Haha

[Kich867]

Jarad's Order --> Loyal Retainer + Something awesome; Iono, Elesh Norn.. Etc...---> I win possibly turn 3 if you run mox or deathrite..

Just a thought Haha

How would one win turn 3 with a deathrite and jarad's order? Jarad's order costs 4 to play.

[Mr. Safety]

He's not saying 'win', he's just saying he can assemble a fat dude/problematic dude by turn three in his graveyard with Jarad's Orders. Deathrite/Mox provide an extra mana, allowing Orders to hit turn 3, then turn 4 you set up the fatty with a sacrificed Retainers.

That is just waaaaay too slow for me to get behind, that's for sure. It would be better to hybridize the deck into junk/reanimator (using Entomb + Reanimate/Exhume, and Entomb can do tricks with Life from the Loam) or go for a more reliable combo like NO-Pro or Hex-Depths. Jarad's Orders does have a certain appeal to it...but it's just too easy to disrupt. And against a deck like Jund or RUG with a ton of removal before you can activate Retainers? Bah, just wasted time.

[damionblackgear]

Why play fair? Cursed Scroll is far too fair. I think a better option exists, and one I'm personally going to work on using: Natural Order + Progenitus. Think about it for a few minutes, and then ask yourself: 'Why would I play a bad Punishing/Grove, or in other words a strictly worse Grim Lavamancer, when I could instead play combo and put them on a two turn clock?'

For me, the answer is pretty simple. Dryad Arbor and Deathrite Shaman, both fetchable by GSZ, allow NO-Pro to be an alternative angle for this deck, and one that doesn't play fair.

Interesting idea but I would suggest Sigarda vs the deck that's playing Liliana and removal.

I'm going to go with the other idea, Strangleroot Geist. Something that can reliably deal with all but 2 of their creatures and can randomly kill Liliana is more interesting to me than a NO plan. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Claymore]

Why play fair? Cursed Scroll is far too fair. I think a better option exists, and one I'm personally going to work on using: Natural Order + Progenitus. Think about it for a few minutes, and then ask yourself: 'Why would I play a bad Punishing/Grove, or in other words a strictly worse Grim Lavamancer, when I could instead play combo and put them on a two turn clock?'

For me, the answer is pretty simple. Dryad Arbor and Deathrite Shaman, both fetchable by GSZ, allow NO-Pro to be an alternative angle for this deck, and one that doesn't play fair.

Good luck not flipping Progenitus with Bob :P. Cursed Scroll has a lot more applications than just a psuedo Lavamancer or PFire, but those are more relevant to my own meta - as well as not taking up a lot of sideboard space while being in GWB. I think decks around have a lot of answers to Prog, especially Jund with plenty of discard to take out NO or Liliana to take out Prog on an empty board.

I'll certainly be interested if a NO/Prog package can apply here though! Very powerful effect indeed, one that I've lost to before.

I did some games with the Scroll and it largely applies in the mid game, where we have a depleted hand with Liliana or just from being in top deck mode. It did it's job to take down small guys until Jund top decked the inevitable Abrupt Decay, but created a good amount of advantage. I'll continue to play it for now since I love the card, but it suffers from a lack of overall applicability to a diverse meta.

[.Ix]

Couple of thoughts on my mind:

2) I have seen some folks talking about Ensnaring Bridge and I *almost* took it as sideboard tech to my local tournament recently...but I don't like how it hoses Goyfs and Knights. I rely on the targeted removal, Deeds, and Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold tech for battling opposing fatties (except Emrakul and Progenitus) I think Oblivion Ring, or even Angel of Despair, is better tech against Show and Tell. For elves? I think Engineered Explosives needs a mention, and as I stated earlier I'm looking into Golgari Charm.


EE is great against an Elf swarm, but it really does nothing against a resolved Natural Order. Oblivion Ring is MUCH better against Show and Tell for sure just because Omniscience is a card, but that's not really what the Bridges are for. It's in there for Progenitus, which O.Rings can't hit. It's definitely not very good in a Goyf deck, but should be fine in Souls decks.

[dballard]

Has anyone looked at hide/seek? Specifically the seek side, seems like a possible answer to some of those combo issues or am I crazy?

[Petree]

Haha it was just a thought.... Jarad order thing. I guess I was saying it's an alternative win combo...

Hmmm Junk reanimator..... seems dope but we'll lose soo many other utility cards :'(

Against Elves I'm running EE but I'm almost afraid it's too slow, imma test it out. But golgari charms are super beast, if it was a bunch of tokens attacking me though, i'd whip out a marrow shards haha....

[AggroSteve]

I'm going to go with the other idea, Strangleroot Geist. Something that can reliably deal with all but 2 of their creatures and can randomly kill Liliana is more interesting to me that a NO plan. I'll let you know how it goes.

i would be very intrested in how your strangleroot geist list would look like, specially because using geist in a junk list presents us with a few problems
i would really love to see your list, and would love to hear your thoughts about strangleroot geist(maybe with cabal theraphy), on how he performs and what issues you would have with your manabase

[Claymore]

Against Elves I'm running EE but I'm almost afraid it's too slow, imma test it out. But golgari charms are super beast, if it was a bunch of tokens attacking me though, i'd whip out a marrow shards haha....

Why not just run Pernicious Deed?

[damionblackgear]

i would be very intrested in how your strangleroot geist list would look like, specially because using geist in a junk list presents us with a few problems
i would really love to see your list, and would love to hear your thoughts about strangleroot geist(maybe with cabal theraphy), on how he performs and what issues you would have with your manabase

This is the list I've started with.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Choke
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Pernicious Deed


I haven't had a chance to test it but I figure that there's no reason not to give it a go. Of Note:

Geist - I wanted another 2cc threat that could apply pressure. Goyf is vanilla, so there's not much threat there outside of size (an angle I don't prefer to use in this format). Even though Geist is 2/1 and that doesn't seem threatening, having to kill something twice should be annoying enough to Jund. The Haste also has a surprise factor on planeswalkers. Geist isn't big enough to kill Jace outright but, he typically bounces when he comes into play against me so 2 is typically enough. That's also enough to force Liliana to death after she's killed something (an ability can't be used effectively against non-undead Geist). I'm aware of Shaman but with 7 pieces of instant speed removal (12 overall), there's a good chance it's either dead or dying in response to the sacrifice effect.

2 Wasteland - I cut one simply because it's not doing as much as it used to. I like the card but 2 served me well before (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571) and I think it'll be fine now. Granted before had Armageddon + Crucible of world but I don't think that'll be an issue. This slot was technically cut (previous list had 24 lands) but I'd rather thing of it as an "It became Stronghold" situation. The way I look at it, I just adjusted what a colorless source did. The manabase will probably need some minor adjustments but I haven't gotten there yet... or really ever.

Sigarda - Still in the list and has been easily placed on the field. I've convinced some others to give her a go (If you caught Koby's stream the past couple of days you've seen it's influence. actually got the idea for this adjustment from his stream an here). She can't be beaten by Rug (seriously, swing delver? No. Goyf? I'll kill it). It's also won me a game vs SnT by me dropping it and them realizing that an Emrakul, attack wasn't as impressive as it used to be. I haven't seen a Tombstalker but, I've got 9 answers for that as well (and a stronghold or Maze in case I don't have one).

No Ooze - I was talking a little to Matt in Denver about how I was hating Ooze and I've mentioned it on here a little as well. Before Geist, I had two open slots. I entered a daily and decided to use Ooze (1) as filler... HATED IT EVERY TIME. I figured anything would've been better than it. I wanted it vs Deathrite's on turn 2 to stop their ramp, in which case, it would just eat whatever removal they had. I wanted it when there was a creature lock and I didn't have a way to stop a Shaman from burning me (that was a practice game where I had drawn dead after 7 turns with a library!). Overall, all of the situations where I wanted it, I either couldn't have used it or I only wanted it because probability struck. I never wanted it because of what it is. I wanted it because of what it use to be. I think Deathrite has left this card unneeded. So, I opened up space.

Hymn > Sculler - I wanted two cards and even though I no longer get to pick, I trust my odds on getting enough stuff that I can do the rest. Paired with six 1cc spells, Hymn becomes a little better. Also, I'm tired of my bears dying to Pryoclasm. Losing Teeg means they can go off, same for Thalia. Losing Sculler means they have their cards back.

On the edge, cards:

Pridemage - Still in the list. Still pulling out random encounter solutions - mainly Sneak Attack, Omniscience, and Batterskull.

Maelstrom Pulse - I know this sounds weird but I'm thinking of returning to Good ol' Deed. I don't really run into too many situations where it's on or the other but there are some (Mom situations are more of an issue without the ability to just remove a Jitte Counter, equipment as well). It also gets rid of the ability to hide your echo's from it. Granted, it's something that can be Decay'd but it can't be Shaman'd for 2 life. Additionally, I am running things that can recover post deed and still attack (Geist) as well as a fatty (Sigarda) who's pretty difficult to deed (BLOWING MY OWN HORN - I've deeded for 9 before... FU IONA). I did keep pulse as an answer to hit Jace but maybe it's time to not worry about that gift horse and deal with the elephant in the room. Even against Miracles, it's typically the angels that are the issue. What are other people's thoughts?

I'm still not sold on Therapy but Geist would be a good creature to use it with. Granted, you're getting rid of ~45% of the reason you are using it (my opinion on the first life's value). It's not like Souls where you're trading exactly 25% of the card to be able to flashback. With Geist it's second life may be stronger but it's typically going to be the resilience to the format that you're really wanting.

I'm not predicting too many mana issues. The deck is running 3 mana dorks and I'm usually on the ball about lands due to Knight. The list I linked (old scg list) ran WW and GG spells along with Kor Haven as a Maze alternative - it produced mana and I didn't know about the vigilance trick... that came later. The last list was running Eternal Witness. Both of those lists manabases were very similar and, turned out fine. It just becomes paying more attention to what you'll need on the next 1-2 turns vs what you have now. As a sidenote, if you're playing with Knight, you need to monitor your available/used lands like a hawk anyway (probably goes without saying but it doesn't hurt to be reminded).

What other things were you wondering about? I haven't had a chance to test it yet but I can pay more attention to them if I know what questions there are.

Claymore - Gold-fished Elves is a relatively consistent 2-3 deck. With enough disruption, you're able to place the Deed. Updated Elves lists don't run Grip (Decay replaced) so it's not a bad idea. It's just not ideal. Deed doesn't have an effect until 3-4. Plague is 2-3 for an effect, EE is 2-3 depending on if you want to show it to them. Charm/Persecution are also 2-3. Basically, they're disruption at the needed point that can cause either major or permanent disruption. Deed will provide a complete reset to their production but, it's just slower. You'll have to plan ahead.

[Arsenal]

With the rise of Jund and Team America, I think Wasteland is more and more important. Personally, I wouldn't run less than 4 walking into a developed meta, but that's just me.

[damionblackgear]

With the rise of Jund and Team America, I think Wasteland is more and more important. Personally, I wouldn't run less than 4 walking into a developed meta, but that's just me.

I've own'd 4 Wastelands but never used 4. I feel it's a card that helps you "not lose" more than it helps you win. Especially against decks that want to stunt your mana production.

[dballard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the logic behind playing 4 Wasteland is that you want to try and mana hose your opponent. I only play 2 Wasteland because my goal with them is removal of any specialty lands that cause me problems, it's also why I've stuck with Vindicate over Maelstrom Pulse and it's also part of why I am still playing Eternal Witness. Also, as Damion said, I feel like it hurts my mana base pulling a Wasteland over a different mana producing land.

Damion I really like this list and I think you're on to something with Geist. I play them in a standard version of Junk and it rarely disappoints, not sure why I didn't think to bring them to legacy. Personally I'd run Witness over Pridemage and find a slot for Pridemage in the side, but that's just my love for Witness. Great looking list though, would love to hear how it's playing for you.

[AggroSteve]

@ damion
i really like your reasoning about geist, and it is quite similar to mine

ther are a lot of liliana decks out there right now, with a geist on the field, the -2 ability of liliana seems to suck, which is really nice
next point that should be good with geist is haste,.... we are for most part a reactive deck (discard aside), with geist we could be more proactive and force wrong decisions on the opponent, for example removing geist, and leaving them with no removal for our knight,.......... but the more important part i think is that we can kill oppising planeswalker with it if our opponents are not careful

to cabal therapy with geist actually would be quite nice, simply because we can decide when to flashback, depending on the matchup. VS aggro or midrange it is not that usefull to flashback if not for high value (multiple cards) against control it would depend on the list, but flashbacking for possible removal leaves us with a stronger threat, for maybe a longer time
against combo he should be quite ok as well, specially with therapy, as by flashbacking we got more disruption while making our clock faster

[Barbed Blightning]

Double green is demanding a lot from this deck, and usually shuts you out of double black

[Mr. Safety]

Interesting idea but I would suggest Sigarda vs the deck that's playing Liliana and removal.

I'm going to go with the other idea, Strangleroot Geist. Something that can reliably deal with all but 2 of their creatures and can randomly kill Liliana is more interesting to me than a NO plan. I'll let you know how it goes.

Which is why I'm testing NO-Pro maindeck and potential sideboard options, like Sigarda in the board, and possibly even some janky shit like Novablast Wurm for Goblins, a matchup I can't seem to ever get a handle on.

I figure that if I can consistently get the mana to play Garruk Relentless, I should be able to consistently get the mana to play Natural Order. I understand that blind-flipping Progenitus with Bob would be incredibly devastating, possibly losing to myself. I think that I will try to work in Sensei's Divining Top into my list instead of Sylvan Library for that very reason. I need to have a filter online before Bob, and Sylvan Library fights for the same 2 mana.

The other option is to drop Dark Confidant g2 and sideboard in NO-Pro, which seems kinda sexy to me.

As far as Strangleroot Geist goes...I think it's good with Cabal Therapy, but I don't think it's good in general. I don't use Therapies because I'm not using Lingering Souls. I wonder if it could be good, but I'm a little skeptical. I'm eagerly awaiting your results, damionBlackgear.

For now, I'm a little fixated on NO-Pro, because I think the right angle against problematic aggro decks isn't to sideboard into a control plan but rather sideboard into a COMBO plan. I know it's old thinking regarding the aggro/control/combo metagame clock, but I still think a 2-turn clock would be decent against problematic decks. I think it might actually be my primary win/con moving forward, with Knights and Shamans doing utility work and beating face if NO-Pro doesn't work out.

I welcome any/all thoughts, and it's sdematt that got my head spinning in that direction anyways, lol. BLAME HIM!

[Claymore]

So, I've also found the Ooze to be lacking main board as #61. My creature base is:

2 GSZ
3 DRS
3 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Knight

I run 3 Liliana, 23 lands, and a generic removal/discard/Sylvan package.

Would it be better to run #4 DRS or Goyf, or put a single Teeg mainboard? Running 61 feel good enough to go back up there instead of running 60.

[Barbed Blightning]

I actually cut some Knights to fit in GSZ. Thus:

4 goyf
4 drs
4 Bob
2 Knight
1 teeg
1 ooze
2 gsz

4 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 decay
4 stp
1 vindicate

2 Library
2 Lilly

4 catacombs
2 flats
2 heath
3 bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 basics
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze


It's been testing well.

[metronome2charisma]

This is the list i have been working on for about a week .I've changed a couple things so this isnt really a rough draft..at any rate lmk what you think .

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 goyf
1 kotr
1 qasali pridemage
1 e witness
14

2 gsz
3 cabal therapy
3 thoughtseize
3 lingering souls
3 abrupt decay
3 swords to plowshares
2 top
1 mealstrom pulse
1 sofaf
1 vindicate
22


2 liliana
2

4 marsh flats
4 verd cat.
2 bayou
2 scrub
1 savannah
3 wastland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy
22

sideboard
3 surgical
2 golgari charm
3 choke
1 duress
2 e.e.
1 teeg
2 bitter blossom
1 sylvan library
15

any questions ask. I like explaining my logic.. also i would be playing a volraths stronghold if i had one..:rolleyes:..this is what i'll be playing in edison this weekend..99% sure.

[Claymore]

Bitterblossom...interesting. what's that for? I picked up a few in failed speculation on Modern, so putting them to use would be sweet

[Esper3k]

Here's a Lingering Souls build list I've been fiddling around with:

// Lands
1 [SOM] Plains (3)
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [M13] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [ISD] Nevermore

Some thoughts:

[U]All the best 2-drops: So I wanted to try playing a build with pretty much all the best 2 drops in MTG. Batterskull is a huge pain for Jund to deal with and Tarmogoyf helps keep you alive against fast aggressive decks. Bob, of course, is amazing against the control decks.
Top over Sylvan Library: I've always been a huge fan of Sylvan Library, but in today's meta with all the Abrupt Decay's all over the place, I wanted my card filtering spell to be protected from AD. I'd love to be able to fit a 3rd Top in there somewhere.
Lingering Souls over KoTR: As much as I love the flexibility that Knight gives us, I think Lingering Souls is too strong right now, especially against Jund and control decks. Having SFM + Cabal Therapy really makes Lingering Souls more powerful than in any other deck.

This build is considerably weaker than the KoTR builds against the Show & Tell decks, which I tried to shore up with a little more targeted discard in the main combined with the faster eTutor board packing O-Rings, Pithing Needle, and Nevermore. I've always loved the flexibility of the eTutor board, so I went back to playing it.

Sculler was also something I wanted to try in the sideboard as a pseudo hate bear since I can't consistently get Teeg out due to no GSZ.

The build has been playing pretty well in testing so far though so I thought I'd post it up here to give people some more ideas in a slightly different direction to go.

[sdematt]

The SFM version seems decently positioned, in all honesty. I doubt SFM is going to survive to untap, but having a Batterskull against Jund is pretty darn good. Let us know how the testing goes.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

The SFM version seems decently positioned, in all honesty. I doubt SFM is going to survive to untap, but having a Batterskull against Jund is pretty darn good. Let us know how the testing goes.

-Matt

It's been interesting so far. I definitely miss the flexibility of GSZ sometimes, but being able to just keep throwing bombs has been pretty fun as well. Against Jund, sometimes I'll even lead off with a Tarmogoyf (say if there's only Land in the yard) to try and bait out a Lightning Bolt just so I can try and stick a Dark Confidant or SFM on the next turn.

[Koby]

It's been interesting so far. I definitely miss the flexibility of GSZ sometimes, but being able to just keep throwing bombs has been pretty fun as well. Against Jund, sometimes I'll even lead off with a Tarmogoyf (say if there's only Land in the yard) to try and bait out a Lightning Bolt just so I can try and stick a Dark Confidant or SFM on the next turn.

Sounds like you have learned how to bait spells/creatures viz a viz Maverick.

[Esper3k]

Sounds like you have learned how to bait spells/creatures viz a viz Maverick.

Hah yeah it's sad when Tarmogoyf is the most expendable 2 drop in the deck. Gotta next level those red players and bait out those Bolts!

[Barbed Blightning]

Hah yeah it's sad when Tarmogoyf is the most expendable 2 drop in the deck. Gotta next level those red players and bait out those Bolts!

That's my favorite part about Tarmogoyf: zero shits given. He's big, he's scary and completely disposable.

[Esper3k]

That's my favorite part about Tarmogoyf: zero shits given. He's big, he's scary and completely disposable.

Honestly, while I love the Rock / Junk, part of me plays this deck based on the level of pimping I can do on it and it gives me a project to work on.

I know Matt probably gets this, but it's awesome when you fetch out a beta Dual and people assume it's FBB... then they look at it again and do a double take...

[damionblackgear]

Gave the list a shot on about 2 hours of sleep. I liked it. The Geist never really got a chance to be. I may want it over the goyf. There wasn't really a time that I got a chance to distinguish a differrence (crazy I know) and I think that having the little bit extra on the Geist's numbers may give that little bit of chance needed to see it in action a better.

I loaded up my old computer so I was able to record the daily matches (went 2-2 again) and uploaded them to Youtube (link's in my sig if you're interested).

Matches were against:
Hivemind - 2-1
Sneak/Show - 0-2 (Sigarda tried but I couldn't follow up)
Maverick - 2-? (I forgot if they got one)
Esper - 0-2 (boarding glitches again)

I was able to recover in the two man queues afterwards (Still couldn't sleep). seems to be the way to go for me. Oddly enough I'm able to run over the storm based combo decks but I'm starting to lose to the SnT based ones.

Queue 1 - Esper Stoneblade - 1-0 (7 minutes left on my clock and lilana (8) vs active jace (1), next draw would've been geist)
Queue 2 - Enchantress (U/G) - 2-0 (This match is awesome)
Queue 3 - Burn - 1-2 (I got burned)
Queue 4 - Burn - 2-0 (Shamans took game 1, Timely saved me game 2)
Queue 5 - TES - 2-1 (Lots of Discard)
Queue 6 - Lands - 2-0 (deathrite + Strangleroot vs Tabernacle + Loam)
Queue 7 - Omnishow - 2-1 (Sigarda into Karakas pulled it out both games)

Going to try and get a couple more recorded soon so others can see what I'm seeing and perhaps get some info on their thoughts.

[Sughayyer]

@Esper3K

I was working on a similar list after reading Lavafrogg's list - replacing knights with souls, then I wanted Jitte and SOFI, then it evolved int opretty much your list - but I run only 22 lands, 2 lilianas and a different discard suite (3 seize 2 iok).

Do you miss liliana?
Are therapies good enough? I reckon that once stoneforge did her job she's also therapy fodder, but is this (and tokens) enough?

Thanks!

[Esper3k]

@Esper3K

I was working on a similar list after reading Lavafrogg's list - replacing knights with souls, then I wanted Jitte and SOFI, then it evolved int opretty much your list - but I run only 22 lands, 2 lilianas and a different discard suite (3 seize 2 iok).

Do you miss liliana?
Are therapies good enough? I reckon that once stoneforge did her job she's also therapy fodder, but is this (and tokens) enough?

Thanks!

I'm currently running 23 lands just because SFM + Equipment can get mana intensive as well as constantly dumping mana into Top (I'm not opposed to going down to 22 though).

I have never really liked Liliana in Junk. All of our cards are generally really good so her +1 can oftentimes be pretty bad for yourself. We usually have plenty of removal as well so her -2 usually isn't as important as in other decks. Also in this particular list I've been playing, I'm trying to stay away from BB/GG/WW spells if I can to make it easier on your manabase.

I've always been a huge fan of Cabal Therapy, probably too much so. It's always been one of those cards where I feel if you're really good at playing it, it's amazing even on the blind Therapy where your skill really comes in. As you said, usually with SFM once you've gotten your equipment down, you can typically afford it to Therapy if you need to. Therapy with Lingering Souls alone is usually good enough though.

[sdematt]

I'm currently running 23 lands just because SFM + Equipment can get mana intensive as well as constantly dumping mana into Top (I'm not opposed to going down to 22 though).

I have never really liked Liliana in Junk. All of our cards are generally really good so her +1 can oftentimes be pretty bad for yourself. We usually have plenty of removal as well so her -2 usually isn't as important as in other decks. Also in this particular list I've been playing, I'm trying to stay away from BB/GG/WW spells if I can to make it easier on your manabase.

I've always been a huge fan of Cabal Therapy, probably too much so. It's always been one of those cards where I feel if you're really good at playing it, it's amazing even on the blind Therapy where your skill really comes in. As you said, usually with SFM once you've gotten your equipment down, you can typically afford it to Therapy if you need to. Therapy with Lingering Souls alone is usually good enough though.

Man, Lingering Souls has been fucking amazing. From fucking over Liliana +1's and -2's to shredding an opponent with Cabal Therapy, I'm honestly loving it. Lingering Souls is so good against random aggro, RUG, Goblins, Esper, etc. I really love the card right now.

My favourite play with Cabal Therapy right now is T1 Bayou, GSZ for 0. Pass. Untap, play land and Cabal Therapy, sac Arbor after tapping for mana, Goyf. So sick.

I like Liliana right now (I've been running her in Jund testing and she's very good) because of the fact she can be a Turn-2 Planeswalker, but I also love GSZ. GSZ is so fucking brutal in fetching Knights against Jund, or even just Tracker in the creature matchups and then you just dominate them. Again, loving it. Problem is, there's hardly room for a deck with 3 Liliana, 3 Souls, and 3 GSZ if you still want to have Knights and hand disruption. Knight is really good, but if you wanted to, you could cut it for Liliana and then have the best of everything, but then your creature count is a bit low (4 DRS 4 Confidant 3 Goyf 1 Ooze).

Also, I'm on reading break now (with nothing to read), so I'll be grinding out an article probably about sideboarding, Jund, Esper, and the like.

-Matt

[Claymore]

So you basically swapped in Lingering Souls for Liliana while maintaining Knights and GSZ? Have a list handy?

[Arsenal]

Matt, I've been running a slightly altered version of a recent build of yours:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Sylvan Library

I don't have room for Liliana, but I like how it's been running so far. This was pretty much your list, but I took out the Pulses and Garruk for Lingering Souls. I could shave a creature here or there, but I really like having a 16 count creature threat base + more "threats" in GSZ and Souls.

[lambert101]

@Arsenal
I like your list and am going to ry it with theses changes.

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Sylvan Library

Lily is good but idk if Souls would be better. Here is a possible board with that list:
2 Ooze of Scavenging the yard
2 P. Deed
2 G. Charm (kills enchantments/survives board wipes besides terminus/killls goblin tokens and elves)
3 Hymn (FUUUUUU COMBO)
2 Surgical (COMBO)
2 Teeg
2 Deathmark (so many green/black decks)

sorry for organization and spelling. I sent this on iphone.

[Arsenal]

I think if you're going to run GSZ, you want to run Dryad Arbor to give yourself the chance of turn 1 accel. Even if you cut GSZ to 2 copies, and the likelihood isn't that great you'll see 1 in your opening hand, you should still have Dryad Arbor in there as a potential mana accel, a surprise KotR activated blocker/attacker, a surprise fetchland blocker/attacker.

For those running Lingering Souls, ever thought of squeezing in a 1-of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad? The +1/+0 to your creatures drastically alters combat math (and you don't get hosed to single spot removal like you do with Elspeth's pump+jump ability) and the other two abilities seem relevant (1/1 chumper to protect himself, gain a bit of life here and there, and being able to destroy opposing planeswalkers seems better than making your stuff indestructible). I've been eyeing that guy FOREVER to use in a deck.

[sdematt]

I'm running:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls

--BOARD--

2 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Gaddock Teeg
(rest is in flux)

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Anyone playing souls needs to strongly consider having 3 slots in the board for jittes. It is so strong in so many matches, especially the deathrite battles that exist right now.

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone playing souls needs to strongly consider having 3 slots in the board for jittes. It is so strong in so many matches, especially the deathrite battles that exist right now.

I think I can one-up that: play at least 1 jitte, a pair of Enlightented Tutors, and Deed/Needle/Canonist/O-Ring. Like a boss...

Regarding Lingering Souls...I don't know, I just can't get behind it. I know how good it is, and I have 2 of them now, but I am trying to work the NO-Pro plan right now. I worry about taking 10 with Bob...but I might do the sideboard swap (bob maindeck, NO-Pro sideboard and swap g2.) It seems to make sense.

[Kich867]

I think I can one-up that: play at least 1 jitte, a pair of Enlightented Tutors, and Deed/Needle/Canonist/O-Ring. Like a boss...

Regarding Lingering Souls...I don't know, I just can't get behind it. I know how good it is, and I have 2 of them now, but I am trying to work the NO-Pro plan right now. I worry about taking 10 with Bob...but I might do the sideboard swap (bob maindeck, NO-Pro sideboard and swap g2.) It seems to make sense.

The only thing I'm worried about there is it getting countered and you getting super fucked by it.

Who else will be playing The Rock at Edison tomorrow? And who else will join me in writing "Dwayne Johnson" for deck name and "Dwayne Johnson" for deck designer?

[Mr. Safety]

The only thing I'm worried about there is it getting countered and you getting super fucked by it.

Who else will be playing The Rock at Edison tomorrow? And who else will join me in writing "Dwayne Johnson" for deck name and "Dwayne Johnson" for deck designer?

If you're referring to NO-Pro, it isn't for blue decks. Maindeck traditional Rock is better at battling those decks. NO-Pro is to fuck up Goblins, Jund, and lots of other fair decks. I think putting Jund on a 2-turn clock is pretty much game. Rather than trade 1-for-1, which Jund does almost as good as Rock, sometimes better, I'd rather just WIN. Sideboard out Bobs to limit life loss and stretch the game out(still have the 3x Sylvan Library for card quality/advantage, they only play one the chumps...).

If you're referring to Enlightened Tutor, I'm not sure I understand. Being able to play it a EOT is pretty good and providing the deck with some great flexibility. That flexibility attached to the already strong disruption suite in the maindeck should be potent. I'm fairly certain the ETutor sideboard plan is proven tech, too. I've seen it in a few times, even in lists on this thread (I think.)

[Kich867]

If you're referring to NO-Pro, it isn't for blue decks. Maindeck traditional Rock is better at battling those decks. NO-Pro is to fuck up Goblins, Jund, and lots of other fair decks. I think putting Jund on a 2-turn clock is pretty much game. Rather than trade 1-for-1, which Jund does almost as good as Rock, sometimes better, I'd rather just WIN. Sideboard out Bobs to limit life loss and stretch the game out(still have the 3x Sylvan Library for card quality/advantage, they only play one the chumps...).

If you're referring to Enlightened Tutor, I'm not sure I understand. Being able to play it a EOT is pretty good and providing the deck with some great flexibility. That flexibility attached to the already strong disruption suite in the maindeck should be potent. I'm fairly certain the ETutor sideboard plan is proven tech, too. I've seen it in a few times, even in lists on this thread (I think.)

I was referring to No-Pro, but I suppose you're correct. Slamming that against other creature decks pretty much wins.

[Barbed Blightning]

The only thing I'm worried about there is it getting countered and you getting super fucked by it.

Who else will be playing The Rock at Edison tomorrow? And who else will join me in writing "Dwayne Johnson" for deck name and "Dwayne Johnson" for deck designer?

I bet you can smell what I'm cooking.

Souls are strictly sideboard business for me, but I have a love affair with Liliana of the Veil

@ nopro: I can see nooo way in which jund can fuck over NOPro. I mean, it's not like they run discard or anything.

Honestly, why are we even considering this? Goblins and Jund are good matchups, you just need to learn how to beat them.

[Kich867]

I bet you can smell what I'm cooking.

Souls are strictly sideboard business for me, but I have a love affair with Liliana of the Veil

Souls + Liliana is pretty dumb. I should post my list..I'll edit this shortly with it.

Ok, so because I don't have goyfs yet:

// Creatures: 18
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Lingering Souls

// Spells: 19
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sylvan Library
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands: 23
3x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Maze of Ith
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Swamp

// Sideboard: 15
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze

[Mr. Safety]

I bet you can smell what I'm cooking.

Souls are strictly sideboard business for me, but I have a love affair with Liliana of the Veil

@ nopro: I can see nooo way in which jund can fuck over NOPro. I mean, it's not like they run discard or anything.

Honestly, why are we even considering this? Goblins and Jund are good matchups, you just need to learn how to beat them.

I'm not sure if you've played against a competent Goblins player...I know that Souls buys you time, and that may be what I need to do, but most often if they land a turn 1 Vial on the play they can slow-roll you hard. Make no mistake, Goblin Ringleader is the real deal at refilling their hand.

Regarding Jund, TS and Liliana are their only outs. What worries me more than discard is Liliana...a lot of Jund lists are playing FOUR.

[lambert101]

Looking at the SfM plan am going to test the following...let me know your thoughts.


4x Tarmogyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Lingering Souls


4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Bayou
3x Scrublands
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heaths
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Golagri Charm
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Scavenging Ooze

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm not sure if you've played against a competent Goblins player...I know that Souls buys you time, and that may be what I need to do, but most often if they land a turn 1 Vial on the play they can slow-roll you hard. Make no mistake, Goblin Ringleader is the real deal at refilling their hand.

Regarding Jund, TS and Liliana are their only outs. What worries me more than discard is Liliana...a lot of Jund lists are playing FOUR.

Thoughtseize their ringleader, and decay their vial. Use DRS and StP on lackey. Drop goyf, and stop hastelords and bombs and you should win. As a former goblins pilot, I can tell you this strategy works. And run some deeds or charms in your board.

[sdematt]

Thoughtseize their ringleader, and decay their vial. Use DRS and StP on lackey. Drop goyf, and stop hastelords and bombs and you should win. As a former goblins pilot, I can tell you this strategy works. And run some deeds or charms in your board.

You need to draw all these cards to make this happen, though, and hope you don't brick. :tongue:

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

You need to draw all these cards to make this happen, though, and hope you don't brick. :tongue:

-Matt

Bingo...you need to have multiple layers to beat them. Alternatively, I can just sideboard into a heavy board control plan (ETutor, Deeds, Golgari Charm) and combo out on them with NO-Pro.

I have found that one Deed, or any wiper, isn't enough against competent Goblin players. You need something that will win fast, like a big dude with a clear board. Keeping the board clear is harder than I ever thought. Progenitus doesn't care WHAT'S on the battlefield, it's going to be a 2-turn clock. Again, the biggest danger is Liliana x4 in the Jund decks. Eventually one of their lili's will grind Progenitus out if I don't deal with her immediately.

This is a matchup where Deathrite Shaman is actually too slow as a threat. He's great as a Birds of Paradise, and can gain you life when you kill stuff, but the -2 life isn't a viable way to win the game. I think the biggest reason for them being a touch matchup for me is that they always top-deck (or Ringleader) into several haste-enabling lords like Warchief and Chieftain. Goblin Sharpshooter, which a lot of lists are using now with Goblin Matron finding it, is really good against Bobs and soul's tokens.

It may be a winnable matchup, but it's no cake-walk.

[sdematt]

Bingo...you need to have multiple layers to beat them. Alternatively, I can just sideboard into a heavy board control plan (ETutor, Deeds, Golgari Charm) and combo out on them with NO-Pro.

I have found that one Deed, or any wiper, isn't enough against competent Goblin players. You need something that will win fast, like a big dude with a clear board. Keeping the board clear is harder than I ever thought. Progenitus doesn't care WHAT'S on the battlefield, it's going to be a 2-turn clock. Again, the biggest danger is Liliana x4 in the Jund decks. Eventually one of their lili's will grind Progenitus out if I don't deal with her immediately.

This is a matchup where Deathrite Shaman is actually too slow as a threat. He's great as a Birds of Paradise, and can gain you life when you kill stuff, but the -2 life isn't a viable way to win the game. I think the biggest reason for them being a touch matchup for me is that they always top-deck (or Ringleader) into several haste-enabling lords like Warchief and Chieftain. Goblin Sharpshooter, which a lot of lists are using now with Goblin Matron finding it, is really good against Bobs and soul's tokens.

It may be a winnable matchup, but it's no cake-walk.

The best tool against Goblins is Engineered Plague, hands-down. One Plague makes their match so much harder to play, since you save removal for Piledrivers. Two Plagues just ends the game. Ideally, I'd love to run Plague, but I just don't have the room. Golgari Charm is faster against other decks as well, and has multiple uses. I don't think it's actually relevant against BUG or a sweeper-based deck (I mean, against Esper, you MIGHT want it, but perhaps not as well).

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I played today in a small tournament after a long hiatus :)

I ran the following:

4 shaman
4 bob
4 goyf
3 sfm

4 l. souls
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 cabal therapy

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay

2 sensei's divining top
1 jitte
1 sword ur
1 battarskull

22 lands
4 waste
4 verdant
4 marsh flats
3 scrub
3 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains (should be a savannah)

I played against bg no-prog (0-2), high tide (2-1), ur burn (2-0), high tide (0-2)

I want Liliana back, other than that, I played really bad :( I must fit in 2 lilianas.... and get a decent sideboard.
If my meta gets infested with combo again I'll get back to the seize-goyf-hymn plan that I was playing months ago... didn't see a single jund, but there were 2 bug players.

I'll spend some more time working on that.

[lavafrogg]

The best tool against Goblins is Engineered Plague, hands-down. One Plague makes their match so much harder to play, since you save removal for Piledrivers. Two Plagues just ends the game. Ideally, I'd love to run Plague, but I just don't have the room. Golgari Charm is faster against other decks as well, and has multiple uses. I don't think it's actually relevant against BUG or a sweeper-based deck (I mean, against Esper, you MIGHT want it, but perhaps not as well).

-Matt

If goblins, maverick and elves are running rampant that you definitely bring plagues in to fuck up the tribe of choice(humans for maverick) if not than you just play a generic sweeper of choice, charm/EE/deed, and hope to get their with goyf plus removal...which is a very decent plan for the most part.

[Mr. Safety]

Updated list, got NO's coming in the mail for the sideboard:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Sylvan Library
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Green Sun's Zenith

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains

Sideboard:

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Golgari Charm
3x Surgical Extraction


I've haven't caved in on the Lingering Souls yet...I'm not sure where to cut to make room. I could probably trim a Sylvan Library and an Abrupt Decay to work in 2x Souls, but I'm just too big of a fan of 3x Library. Decay could be cut to 3 no problem, Vindicate picks up a little slack in that area.

Thoughts? Given this list, what would folks do to work in Lingering Souls?

[dballard]

I resisted Lingering Souls for a long time, mostly because I felt like I needed the equips to make it viable which then means Stoneforge and I couldn't make room for all of that. Also, it just feels like a completely different mindset from how I want the deck to play. I did eventually make room for Souls and at first I liked them, and if you're good with Cabal Therapy then Souls is great, but I found I was often playing them as a stall tactic rather then being an answer or a threat (the way I feel Junk is meant to be). So for now I've removed them again and am trying Damion's idea about Strangleroot Geist, so far I'm liking it.

My question to you is, how often mid game are you drawing discard that is beneficial? I see you're playing 8 cards plus 2 Liliana, you could potentially try the Souls/Cabal Therapy bundle and remove a few discard spells due the flashback ability of Therapy.

Lastly, love that you're still rocking Eternal Witness.

[AggroSteve]

I resisted Lingering Souls for a long time, mostly because I felt like I needed the equips to make it viable which then means Stoneforge and I couldn't make room for all of that. Also, it just feels like a completely different mindset from how I want the deck to play. I did eventually make room for Souls and at first I liked them, and if you're good with Cabal Therapy then Souls is great, but I found I was often playing them as a stall tactic rather then being an answer or a threat (the way I feel Junk is meant to be). So for now I've removed them again and am trying Damion's idea about Strangleroot Geist, so far I'm liking it.

My question to you is, how often mid game are you drawing discard that is beneficial? I see you're playing 8 cards plus 2 Liliana, you could potentially try the Souls/Cabal Therapy bundle and remove a few discard spells due the flashback ability of Therapy.

Lastly, love that you're still rocking Eternal Witness.

that would have been my point all along, just was not able to put my thoughts that clear as you did.

i see the beneficial synergy between souls and therapy, and i even understand that souls help a lot in the miracles matchup and other control-matchups, but souls actually in my eyes is no threat, not even a clunky answer, but only usefull for a stalling/grinding gameplan, therefore i did not really like it, actually i disliked it pretty much because i threw them out of the list after only a couple of test-games
strangleroot on the other hand could be a very reliable threat, and together with the synergy with cabal therapy very usefull in all matchups, be it aggro, midrange, control or combo

against aggro you got a creature that is able to block 2 times, and maybe kill some opposing creatures in the process
against midrange you got a creature you can sacrifice or let die to a liliana or other removal other than STOP, plus it represents a threat for opposing planeswalker on a empty field (mainly liliana and jace)
against control you got a usefull sometimes fast clock, that deserves removal, plus with cabal therapy you got disruption+clock that supplemnt each other
against combo, you got a hasty clock that profits from your disruption suite

i think list with strangleroot geist can pack the same disruptionsuite as lists with lingering souls, with the difference being that strangleroot is way, way more aggressive,......... pretty much the way i like it

and i even like the line of play that sdmatt talked about, and would also be stronger with the inclusion of strangleroot geist
1st turn DRS or GSZ for arbor
2nd turn cabal therapy, tap arbor for mana, then either sac arbor for flashback with goyf following, or play strangleroot and sac either strangleroot with flashback or arbor, and attack with a hasty 2/1 or 3/2 for a very aggressive start

i really like the options geist would give our gameplan, because i think geist could be a very adaptive creature

[Kich867]

I'm going to post a report later, but, I went to SCG Edison and played 8 combo decks in 9 rounds. People saying that combo isn't in the meta right now are wildly naive. The 3 other people I were with all played at least 3-5 combo decks as well.

Not only did I play against 8 combo decks (and beat half of them) I also didn't play a single combo deck twice.

In order:
Hypergenesis - Beat
Dredge - Lost
Belcher - Lost
Oops / Hermit - Beat
Esper - Lost
Elves - Beat
Sneak and Tell - Lost
Tin Fins - Beat
Scapewish Nic Fit - Lost

The only fair deck I played was esper, we had a 45 minute game 1, he won it in the end, we drew the second game, he won the round.

Every combo list I played that I lost to was due to just not seeing any boarded hate, every combo list I beat I saw my boarded hate.

[Esper3k]

With the rise of Jund and all these mid range decks, I actually think combo is extremely well positioned in the format right now.

[Mr. Safety]

that would have been my point all along, just was not able to put my thoughts that clear as you did.

i see the beneficial synergy between souls and therapy, and i even understand that souls help a lot in the miracles matchup and other control-matchups, but souls actually in my eyes is no threat, not even a clunky answer, but only usefull for a stalling/grinding gameplan, therefore i did not really like it, actually i disliked it pretty much because i threw them out of the list after only a couple of test-games
strangleroot on the other hand could be a very reliable threat, and together with the synergy with cabal therapy very usefull in all matchups, be it aggro, midrange, control or combo

against aggro you got a creature that is able to block 2 times, and maybe kill some opposing creatures in the process
against midrange you got a creature you can sacrifice or let die to a liliana or other removal other than STOP, plus it represents a threat for opposing planeswalker on a empty field (mainly liliana and jace)
against control you got a usefull sometimes fast clock, that deserves removal, plus with cabal therapy you got disruption+clock that supplemnt each other
against combo, you got a hasty clock that profits from your disruption suite

i think list with strangleroot geist can pack the same disruptionsuite as lists with lingering souls, with the difference being that strangleroot is way, way more aggressive,......... pretty much the way i like it

and i even like the line of play that sdmatt talked about, and would also be stronger with the inclusion of strangleroot geist
1st turn DRS or GSZ for arbor
2nd turn cabal therapy, tap arbor for mana, then either sac arbor for flashback with goyf following, or play strangleroot and sac either strangleroot with flashback or arbor, and attack with a hasty 2/1 or 3/2 for a very aggressive start

i really like the options geist would give our gameplan, because i think geist could be a very adaptive creature

I like Geist about a million times better than souls, especially because I don't use SFM. Bummer that I just traded away my Therapies, lol. I could easily make Geist work in my list, no sweat. I even like Geist as a reusable sac target for Natural Order.

My deck would change thus:

-2 Duress
-3 Hymn to Tourach

+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Strangleroot Geist

I am already putting 3x Dryad Arbor in my maindeck for the NO-Pro sideboard plan, which incidentally gives me extra Therapy targets, I just need a way to incorporate Loam somehow. I might switch from Eternal Witness to Loam given the extra beef from Geists.

[Barbed Blightning]

With the rise of Jund and all these mid range decks, I actually think combo is extremely well positioned in the format right now.

It is. Edison was crawling with it.

[sdematt]

The only major disadvantage Junk has right now is poor stack interaction. We're a board control deck, and the stack isn't our game. There's not much we can do except discard, moar discard!

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

The only major disadvantage Junk has right now is poor stack interaction. We're a board control deck, and the stack isn't our game. There's not much we can do except discard, moar discard!

-Matt

Agreed. I also think we're somewhat lacking in card advantage, beyond Bob and Library. Jund has BBE and maindeck Hymn to acquire the two-for-one effect. Where Junk succeeds is card quality--this is where Jund starts to have issues. When we stick a Knight, its combination of utility and power simply outclasses most of Jund's threats.

I noticed at Edison (where in retrospect I wish I played Junk) that everyone hated Junk and said it was bad. Jund's raw card advantage was all anyone could talk about. Thoughts?

[Arsenal]

I think Junk's card quality advantage and the flexibility in the builds is the biggest strengths over Jund. Jund lists are most static, with the biggest variance being PFire vs. non-PFire builds. Junk sees Stoneforge, GSZ, Lingering Souls, classic 16 creature suite, etc. There's more flexibility afforded to Junk due to being in BGW. We also have better SB options thank to White > Red in that department.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm getting a little bit tired of my Knights getting hit with Abrupt Decay...messing around with Sejiri Steppe again.

[sdematt]

When friends and I are discussing the reason why Junk is a bit underpowered, it's because we're not doing anything unfair. There's few two-for-one's. The board gets better in giving us two-for-one's, but the rest of the deck doesn't have the same amount of value-getters as most blue decks have, but that's just the way it is. At least we're valuing up with Planeswalkers, Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls, etc.

Deed is an X-for-1, Tracker is usually X-for-1, stuff like Zealous/Charm, Jitte, etc. But these really aren't maindeckable cards, so where does that leave us? In unknown territory, perhaps. But, does that me we can just out-fair our opponents through sheer card quality, even if it is fair? Yes, since that's what we've been doing since forever.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I think the most difficult thing to deal with in BUG decks are tombstalkers. I'm find that three mana removal spells are just not getting it done, I'm thinking about terminate and go for the throat as potential board cards as I have 4 spots open now in my board (non-PFires JUND).

From the jund thread!

Wait till they see a mystic enforcer! lol

On a more serious note, do we just bring in the card advantage of Stoneforge Mystic again?

[sdematt]

From the jund thread!

Wait till they see a mystic enforcer! lol

On a more serious note, do we just bring in the card advantage of Stoneforge Mystic again?

That is a valid question, but I think it really depends on who we're gunning for. To beat Jund, we have to be the control deck. I think bringing in Equipment and bombs are not bad things at all, but SFM I'm not 100% sure on. Does Jund beat up Esper?


-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I don't know about Esper but I've had a harder time without it (granted I'm also playing much more poorly than usual). Switching back to test.

[Petree]

I also noticed when AJ Kerrigan said that Junk was terrible which I and probably most people on this thread will disagree to.

Let's get this straight.. Junk isn't a deck that can be piloted by any player, I was an aggro loam player before I was a junk player. I did not like the feel of this deck but I kept playing it, losing and winning, learning the deck in and out. From what I've learned is that the deck is far way more powerful than i had expected, yes slower when compared to aggro loam type decks which are like jund, bug, rug.... tempo aggro decks. The reason I say it can't be piloted by anybody is because the deck is very very flexible and can be played in many aspects. The most powerful aspect of Junk is the tutoring ability in an aggro/control deck. It has a little bit of everything and with a little bit of everything you have to know when and what to use. It's not out of control like cascade decks and its not fast either. The deck also has basically an answer to everything "the deck with all the answers". Just remember, know when to be aggressive and take over, and know when to sit back and control the board and the hand.

[lavafrogg]

I also noticed when AJ Kerrigan said that Junk was terrible which I and probably most people on this thread will disagree to.

Let's get this straight.. Junk isn't a deck that can be piloted by any player, I was an aggro loam player before I was a junk player. I did not like the feel of this deck but I kept playing it, losing and winning, learning the deck in and out. From what I've learned is that the deck is far way more powerful than i had expected, yes slower when compared to aggro loam type decks which are like jund, bug, rug.... tempo aggro decks. The reason I say it can't be piloted by anybody is because the deck is very very flexible and can be played in many aspects. The most powerful aspect of Junk is the tutoring ability in an aggro/control deck. It has a little bit of everything and with a little bit of everything you have to know when and what to use. It's not out of control like cascade decks and its not fast either. The deck also has basically an answer to everything "the deck with all the answers". Just remember, know when to be aggressive and take over, and know when to sit back and control the board and the hand.

Forbiddian is that you?

AJ Sacher is obviously a terrible junk player and just doesn't have any experience with the deck. I have been playing Rock for years and can win any matchup because I know my card choices and deck matchups. UW tempo... I mean rock, is the bet deck in the format when played by a competent player, especially me.

[Petree]

Uh.. Nope i'm not who your thinking of...

http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/1585_quick_question_what_is_the_bes.html

AJ Kerrigan, mentions that junk is terrible.

Exactly! This deck in my opinion has very very good when the right player is piloting it or as you say a competent player lol... I'm always tweaking this damn deck though haha

[sdematt]

Uh.. Nope i'm not who your thinking of...

http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/1585_quick_question_what_is_the_bes.html

AJ Kerrigan, mentions that junk is terrible.

Exactly! This deck in my opinion has very very good when the right player is piloting it or as you say a competent player lol... I'm always tweaking this damn deck though haha

AJ doesn't know what he's talking about.

i was running Jund last night and it's a pretty even match, but Lingering Souls breaks it open, as does Knight. Knight always ended the game, since it was always better (except when he double Bolted a summoning sick Knight) or just Wastelanded them into oblivion. Souls was so good at pressuring Liliana or just chumping in general.

Sigarda was only played once, but she ended the game 100% on her own.

Deed from the board was FINE at clearing stuff, but wasn't amazing. Better than some cards though.

Surgical never got played against Fires, but I'm bringing it in since I think it's a touch better than Cabal Therapy in this matchup. However, blind Cabal Therapies on Deathrite Shaman or Liliana are pretty great.

My board looks like this:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari charm (could be Jitte)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker (also dominates Jund if they don't have removal)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Open

What do you guys think the open slot should be? There's an upcoming tournament on Saturday, and the decks I expect to face are possibly:

1x BUG Control
1x Shardless BUG/Tempo BUG
1x Sneak and Show
2x Esperblade
1x TES/Doomsday
1x Pox
1-2x Burn
1x 43 Lands or Jund
1x Elves or Goblins


I'm thinking either Life from the Loam, Ichneumon Druid, Timely Reinforcements, Zealous Persecution, or something else. Thoughts?

-Matt

[Amazing Larry]

AJ doesn't know what he's talking about.

i was running Jund last night and it's a pretty even match, but Lingering Souls breaks it open, as does Knight. Knight always ended the game, since it was always better (except when he double Bolted a summoning sick Knight) or just Wastelanded them into oblivion. Souls was so good at pressuring Liliana or just chumping in general.

Sigarda was only played once, but she ended the game 100% on her own.

Deed from the board was FINE at clearing stuff, but wasn't amazing. Better than some cards though.

Surgical never got played against Fires, but I'm bringing it in since I think it's a touch better than Cabal Therapy in this matchup. However, blind Cabal Therapies on Deathrite Shaman or Liliana are pretty great.

My board looks like this:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari charm (could be Jitte)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker (also dominates Jund if they don't have removal)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Open

What do you guys think the open slot should be? There's an upcoming tournament on Saturday, and the decks I expect to face are possibly:

1x BUG Control
1x Shardless BUG/Tempo BUG
1x Sneak and Show
2x Esperblade
1x TES/Doomsday
1x Pox
1-2x Burn
1x 43 Lands or Jund
1x Elves or Goblins


I'm thinking either Life from the Loam, Ichneumon Druid, Timely Reinforcements, Zealous Persecution, or something else. Thoughts?

-Matt

It would be nice to dust off a copy of Ichneumon Druid....

[Barbed Blightning]

What's he for? Storm?

[Claymore]

With 2 Needles and 2 Deeds, perhaps you could toss in an Enlightened Tutor - especially if you use a Jitte. I think as a x1 slot, you're better off with Tutor or something tutorable with GSZ, like the Druid as mentioned.

--

With the talk of Tracker, has Arena ever been tried here? I use it in Modern Rock with KotR and love it...obviously you have the Wasteland problem here in Legacy more so than Modern and it has a high mana investment (3 vs 2 on Tracker) and no direct targetting. Acts as a secondary Tracker, except it taps down opposing creatures too, but it solely tutorable with Knight. Lol at Emrakul with your Lingering Souls. As a manaless land it might be an option as opposed to Maze of Ith.

[damionblackgear]

I'm thinking either Life from the Loam, Ichneumon Druid, Timely Reinforcements, Zealous Persecution, or something else. Thoughts?

-Matt

You're killing me. I've been around a long time but I did not remember Ichneumon Druid. Tag that stuff for our sanity :wink:

Is this Still your list? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-DTB-The-Rock&p=703250&viewfull=1#post703250)

Instead of the single slot, try 2 Lili and cut a Deed (I know, it doesn't do anything to burn but... that match is terrible already). That'll give you a little extra discard, extra kill for Liliana in other matches, a way to keep Combo decks at 1 card (suck it SnT), and still keeps the board control.

[jin]

That's a lot of blue. Would it be terrible to play guttural response? Hits the show and tell and the ancestral vision. It doesn't do much against storm, but it could be a shocker if it hit Diminishing Returns. Of course, you'd have to clear more slots for them...

I probably wouldn't play Ichneumon Druid, as it is pretty narrow. TES doesn't really play that many instants. TES only plays Brainstorm, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual, Silence. Everything else are Sorceries. Postboard, Silence probably comes out.

[lavafrogg]

Dont forget seedtime. EOT brainstorm this!!

[sdematt]

And we're back with the rest of the dreck of the format. Boo.

We've been doing well in European tournies, but not so much stateside.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

And we're back with the rest of the dreck of the format. Boo.

We've been doing well in European tournies, but not so much stateside.

-Matt

No one seemed to want to pick up Rock when Jund was the new hotness and got all of the hype.

[Barbed Blightning]

No one seemed to want to pick up Rock when Jund was the new hotness and got all of the hype.

I mean, for those who played it in standard, to more or less played a more tricked-out version of it in legacy must seem appealing. For me, I see junk and jund as equal in power

[Mr. Safety]

AJ doesn't know what he's talking about.

i was running Jund last night and it's a pretty even match, but Lingering Souls breaks it open, as does Knight.

Isn't AJ Kerrigan only like 12 years old? I could never take that guy seriously...

I have finally caved in; playing 2x Lingering Souls maindeck, along with a Jitte. I'm also switching from Sylvan Library to SDT once I get them, just so I can manipulate the top draw easier with Bobs (Library, unfortunately, triggers during the draw step.) I could do Mirri's Guile, but I think Top is the more powerful of the 2 one-mana options.

Until then, I've cut to only playing 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymns, and 2 Lilianas for discard in the maindeck (taking out IoK for the Lingering Souls) and dropping to 2 Libraries so I can get the Jitte maindeck.

[crow_mw]

And we're back with the rest of the dreck of the format. Boo.

We've been doing well in European tournies, but not so much stateside.

-Matt

Isn't it good for us to be slightly outside of the spotlight? We still get some great contributors on forum, but it is no fun playing if everyone and their dad packs 10 hate cards for you in their sideboard...

[damionblackgear]

Isn't it good for us to be slightly outside of the spotlight? We still get some great contributors on forum, but it is no fun playing if everyone and their dad packs 10 hate cards for you in their sideboard...

Yes and No.

We're not like other legacy decks - in the sense that we do something "broken" that they can fight against. WE fight "fair". It's hard to sideboard against a deck that not only fights fairly, but also is designed to force everything else to fight fair as well. The best option for people dealing with us wouldn't be to adjust their sideboard, but instead just play decks that don't give us time to enforce the "fairness" of the game. Belcher or Burn would be the best options, but we all know the feelings on those two decks.

If everyone does know about and try to beat us with their current deck(s), it gives us a chance to adapt to our own weaknesses. We're unique in the sense that we can adapt to change more quickly and efficiently than the rest of the format. That means that decks who are use to being able to beat us one way may learn that they're doing it wrong the next time (depending on analysis of what the actual problem was). On top of that, the more an individual deck does to stop us, the more fair the match becomes, which is our main goal anyway.

[ryn ball_2]

Hello fellow rock players, i'm back again piloting rock after a long break. 3-1 just pure swiss and went 3rd. omnitell (2nd), manaless dredge (1st)

R1 vs monoblue nivmagus: 2-0
R2 vs BR goblins: 1-2 (doesnt draw creatures on the 3rd game to seal a wall against 1/1 ringleader (e.plague on the play))
R3 vs mono red goblins: 2-1
R4 vs RDW: 2-0

LIST:

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 vindicate

4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay

2 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 bayou
3 scrubland
4 wasteland
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs

SB

2 engineered explosives
2 engineered plague
2 perish
2 diabolic edict
3 surgical extraction
4 timely reinforcement

I go for the tempo build just tripping around it, 4 hymn and 4 vindicate (that can act as sinkhole) w/c performed good but not that best.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes and No.

We're not like other legacy decks - in the sense that we do something "broken" that they can fight against.

Speak for yourself, NO-Pro has been nuts out of my sideboard. Maybe not broken, but definitely unfair. Playing hard disruption followed by NO-Pro is pretty hard to beat. I imagine NO-Pro Rug will start crawling back into the metagame again. When Mental Misstep was rampant (another mid-range heavy metagame, in a sense) NO-Pro RUG was tearing it up. I've got my fingers crossed, and testing is working well, that NO-Pro is decent tech ATM.

Not sure if anyone else is trying this, but I really, really like it so far.

[Sughayyer]

@ryn-ball
the return to a tempo approach sounds interesting. Why (and where) did vindicates underperformed?
@all
in my meta I know there are at least 2 bug, 2 spiral tide, a bw deadguy, and 2 burns. There may be bant blade/esper blade, and also TES. I'm yet to see jund in there, so I don't know if I go for jund or stick with the rock, since souls beats up bug as much as bbe, and bgw has more tools against combo than jund. Btw the rock's list I'd use would be:
4 seize
4 hymn
4 stp
3 decay
1 pulse
2 tops
1 library
2 liliana
4 shaman
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
... 3 souls on side.

I'm bringing this question up 'cause I feel this thread has more mature players, and in anywhere else they'll just tell me to go along the current trend without even reading.
Thanks again!!

[Mr. Safety]

Ok fellow Rockers, I need some knowledge. Dredge has been dominating the local legacy, winning at least 2 out of the last 3 events (I haven't attended, just news from my buddy Russ who has been consistently going...and losing in the last round to Dredge with mono-black aggro.) I have 4 Shamans, 4 Knights, 1 Bojuka Bog, and 2 GSZ's maindeck, along with 3 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. I'm thinking this should be enough to give me decent odds against Dredge, but I want to make sure.

[Viridia]

I wouldnt bet on it, yes you have a chance of winning, but no, by no means it'll be easy :)

Deathrites are okay-ish and Knight into Bog is really good, if you have enough time to get that far.

Surgicals also only slow them down, so you really need a disruption heavy hand (aka 1-2 Surgicals + Deathrite + Knight/Bog) to be able to stand a chance.


Dredge can be very resistant ;)

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Current list BTW:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains

Sideboard

1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Plague
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

[sdematt]

I'll reply to all the new posts later this weekend, but I won a tournament I hosted this weekend, going 4-1 and placing 1st on breakers in a Swiss+1 setting, losing only to Manaless Dredge in the last round.

My list was the usual.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Ok fellow Rockers, I need some knowledge. Dredge has been dominating the local legacy, winning at least 2 out of the last 3 events (I haven't attended, just news from my buddy Russ who has been consistently going...and losing in the last round to Dredge with mono-black aggro.) I have 4 Shamans, 4 Knights, 1 Bojuka Bog, and 2 GSZ's maindeck, along with 3 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. I'm thinking this should be enough to give me decent odds against Dredge, but I want to make sure.

Add a scavenging ooze to lock down the game and 3 crypts in the board and you will be happy against graveyard decks.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'll reply to all the new posts later this weekend, but I won a tournament I hosted this weekend, going 4-1 and placing 1st on breakers in a Swiss+1 setting, losing only to Manaless Dredge in the last round.

My list was the usual.

-Matt

Congratulations. What is your main and side, though? It seems like this stuff changes daily.

[ryn ball_2]

@sug: actually vindicates doesnt underperformed last saturday, it gives what i need like destroying opponents land and his permanents. My main purpose is to screw their manabase via vindicate and to maximize my hymn (w/c sometimes grab a land from random discards). Nothing new about the vindicate tech.

@dredge match up: in my sb i have 3 surgicals, 2 EE and MD 4 shaman and 1 bog w/c atm i'm fine w/ that against dredge and also manaless dredge. With the inclusion of scavenging ooze in MD or SB it gives high rate of winning against dredge.

[damionblackgear]

Good job Matt.

Mr. Safety - Fair enough. I forgot about NO.

You should be fine against Dredge. You have more than I do (main) against them. Out of the board we have about the same amount coming in. Don't worry too much about that matchup. Just hold Surgicals if they have multiple dredgers in the yard. Wait until they have Either Narcomeba(s) or Ichorid (that matter: 2+ bridges as well, use own judgement on 1) on the stack and give it a go. The deck needs real creatures to make fake ones.

Sughayyer - Since the matchups are pretty much similar, I think your biggest concern in there is "what don't either do well?" That'd be Burn from my look. You're stuck with both being focused on discard and hoping they don't draw more. At least with Rock, you can gain some life back. Jund lacks that (because let's be honest, DRS is not a relevant life-gain ability).

[sdematt]

Congratulations. What is your main and side, though? It seems like this stuff changes daily.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah (took out the 1 Plains, and this was much betteR)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls

--BOARD--

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (I knew there was going to be BUG/Pox/Emrakul)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution (The 1/1 split was because there were other Souls decks, so I might want to muck their team but not mine)
2 Thoughtseize



I won against RIP/Helm Combo, BUg Landstill, Mono Red Burn (very lucky), and Mono Black Pox while losing in the finals to Manaless Dredge. Since it was Swiss+1 though, I came ahead on breakers and won back my own dual lands. Boo.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Good job Matt.

Mr. Safety - Fair enough. I forgot about NO.

You should be fine against Dredge. You have more than I do (main) against them. Out of the board we have about the same amount coming in. Don't worry too much about that matchup. Just hold Surgicals if they have multiple dredgers in the yard. Wait until they have Either Narcomeba(s) or Ichorid (that matter: 2+ bridges as well, use own judgement on 1) on the stack and give it a go. The deck needs real creatures to make fake ones.

Sughayyer - Since the matchups are pretty much similar, I think your biggest concern in there is "what don't either do well?" That'd be Burn from my look. You're stuck with both being focused on discard and hoping they don't draw more. At least with Rock, you can gain some life back. Jund lacks that (because let's be honest, DRS is not a relevant life-gain ability).

I think this shouldn't be overlooked: don't count on Deathrite to shore up your Burn matchup. I have found that I don't like to pass a turn without using Deathrite in some way, and some times that means using up your spare green mana to gain some life (he's like a planeswalker, activate him EVERY TURN.) However, he isn't a 'serious' answer to direct damage.

Natural Order into Empyrial Archangel on the other hand...that seems kind of sexy to me. ;)

I goofed on my list above, too...only 3 Hymns and a maindeck Jitte is there, too. I have found that Lingering Souls is like an uber-efficient Elspeth, honestly. You get a better initial investment (2 tokens) and the second time you double up. I like it pretty good...but Elspeth still does the flying Giant Growth. Fairly torn on this, because I could trim to 1 Elspeth and work in another Hymn, or even maindeck Deeds by dropping the Souls/Jitte to the board.

[Esper3k]

Damnit, Matt - hah I'm playing a very similar maindeck now as well! (back to fiddling around with Knights since I wanted to shore up my Show & Tell matchup again)

[damionblackgear]

Ran in the noon Daily again. Ended 2-2 (misplayed myself out of one match). I switched back to the Mystic version from some suggestions on the previous versions videos and I liked it more than the other. Rounds were (in order):

Jund - 1-2 (misplayed lands which stopped me from killing bob, which snowballed into a single card winning for him)
Burn - 2-0 (I don't know, it just happened)
Esper - 2-0/1 (don't remember, it's been a long day)
Food Chain - 0-2 (One game made a bad choice game 1. The other I lost, no complaints)

Overall, still a little rusty from where I was about this time last year. I don't think the +2 Deathrite is my style or something I'll be looking to do again for a long time. I'm happy that it's working for others though. I'll keep trying to recover my ability to read hands without a Thoughtseize but I don't know how long that'll take (especially with no consistent schedule to play). I'm going to keep recording the games I run online and posting them though. Anyone who wants can watch the games (link to list[s] and vid[s]s in my signature)

[Kpicco]

Current list. Play tested intensely (on and offline.) Hasn't been put to the real test yet (actual large-scale tournament play), but it seems to have potential.

Creatures 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wastelands
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuko Bog
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deeds
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Karakas

All suggestions / questions are welcome and encouraged.

[Petree]

Ran in the noon Daily again. Ended 2-2 (misplayed myself out of one match). I switched back to the Mystic version from some suggestions on the previous versions videos and I liked it more than the other. Rounds were (in order):

Jund - 1-2 (misplayed lands which stopped me from killing bob, which snowballed into a single card winning for him)
Burn - 2-0 (I don't know, it just happened)
Esper - 2-0/1 (don't remember, it's been a long day)
Food Chain - 0-2 (One game made a bad choice game 1. The other I lost, no complaints)

Overall, still a little rusty from where I was about this time last year. I don't think the +2 Deathrite is my style or something I'll be looking to do again for a long time. I'm happy that it's working for others though. I'll keep trying to recover my ability to read hands without a Thoughtseize but I don't know how long that'll take (especially with no consistent schedule to play). I'm going to keep recording the games I run online and posting them though. Anyone who wants can watch the games (link to list[s] and vid[s]s in my signature)


I actually watched and yes that was a very very bad misplay especially when you had it haha

I think if you going to play the moxes, you should take out the shamens especially since your only playing two. And with stoneforge I like the mox play better because it's soo much more explosive. But if you decide to not to play the moxes then you should definitely play three or four shamens for a ramp. The reason i say this is because I feel like shamens can be extra utility cards or extra creatures if you play the moxes.

Stoneforge is still a real card. Esper proves that and so did Ian haha.... I don't necessarily think you need qasali if your not playing enough green sun tutoring...

I'll think of some more stuff later... thought I'd stop by here after homework haha

[mike1987]

Trying out junk this week at my daily card game store

My list:

4 Verdant catacombs
2 Marsh flats
3 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


4 Deathrite shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Abrupt decay
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Liliana of the veil

SB:
2 Pernicious deed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Duress
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Diabolic edict


My meta these days is filled with U/R delvers, Sneak show, hive mind and miracles. I am more concerned about the latter 3, especially those show and tell decks with leyline of sanctity in the side, hence the 3 o ring. If the show decks pack 4 leyline will you guys remove the discards to add more useful cards or it's a better idea not to touch it? Do you guys think P deed is a good answer to miracles sudden entreat the angels? or there is a better solution? One turn could be lethal. =x

[Claymore]

--BOARD--

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (I knew there was going to be BUG/Pox/Emrakul)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution (The 1/1 split was because there were other Souls decks, so I might want to muck their team but not mine)
2 Thoughtseize

How do all of those x2 artifacts treat you? Also, how relevant is that x1 Jitte as board material?

[Esper3k]

My meta these days is filled with U/R delvers, Sneak show, hive mind and miracles. I am more concerned about the latter 3, especially those show and tell decks with leyline of sanctity in the side, hence the 3 o ring. If the show decks pack 4 leyline will you guys remove the discards to add more useful cards or it's a better idea not to touch it? Do you guys think P deed is a good answer to miracles sudden entreat the angels? or there is a better solution? One turn could be lethal. =x

I think you have to leave in discard even if you know your opponent is packing Leylines. They won't always have Leyline and for those games, you'll have to have discard if you want to even have a shot at winning.

I don't particularly like Deed against Miracles. It's so-so because it kills CB and Entreat tokens, but it's also really bad because it will likely wipe your own board and it doesn't touch Jace. Honestly, I just like Krosan Grip against them. If you kill Top, their whole deck has a very difficult time functioning.

[Claymore]

I don't particularly like Deed against Miracles. It's so-so because it kills CB and Entreat tokens, but it's also really bad because it will likely wipe your own board and it doesn't touch Jace. Honestly, I just like Krosan Grip against them. If you kill Top, their whole deck has a very difficult time functioning.


I like it as a safety net. Miracles can kill you out of nowhere with the EOT Entreat, and with a Deed out they must dig and find their x1-2 Detention Sphere first. I save the AD for CB. Plus, Deed has wider applicability in other matches where Grip is very narrow...although it does serve a great purpose if Miracles is infesting your meta.

I do suppose that for mike1987's meta, Grip would be better overall.

[Esper3k]

I like it as a safety net. Miracles can kill you out of nowhere with the EOT Entreat, and with a Deed out they must dig and find their x1-2 Detention Sphere first. I save the AD for CB. Plus, Deed has wider applicability in other matches where Grip is very narrow...although it does serve a great purpose if Miracles is infesting your meta.

I do suppose that for mike1987's meta, Grip would be better overall.

Yeah, like I said, while I don't particularly like it, I think it's ok. I just think the bigger threat in that matchup is Jace / Top so I generally don't like Deed especially since it sets ourselves back so much in that matchup.

[sdematt]

Pithing Needle and Gaddock Teeg take that deck the fuck out. Gaddock Teeg means they can't Jace, Entreat, or Terminus, while Needle shutting off Top means it's super hard for them to find answers.

-Matt

[Claymore]

Reports in the Maverick thread seem to indicate that Sylvan Safekeeper is very strong right now. Certainly seems good against Jund and countering Abrupt Decays on our Knights or Goyfs.

[Mr. Safety]

Lost an online match to Maverick because of Mom...weird, I was thinking the same thing: find a way to protect the fatties, or better yet, get them through in combat regardless of blockers. Sylvan Safekeeper protects from removal, and is searchable with GSZ, but I somehow think Mom is the better of the two choices. I'm itching to try it...but jeesh, how do I find room?

[sdematt]

That is the whole issue right with BWG and BUG: there's so many cards you want to play, but only 75 slots, it's so brutal. It's like asking me which children to save from drowning in a flood. Mom is very good in Maverick, but I'm not sure WE want to play her. I'd say if you're looking to try Safekeeper, go for it. I'm going to hold off for now.

As for all the 2's in the sideboard, they've been treating me fine. Ideally I'd love to do 3x all of them (which means I should run E. Tutor, I know), but so far it's been fine between 4 Bobs, Fetchlands, and 3 Sylvan Libraries.

The 1-of Jitte was there as my random slot. I had 14 slots the night before and had no idea who I was going to face the next day. Jitte is good against possible Tribal I expected to show up, has value against Burn, and is good in the long game against BUG/Jund/Esper. Turns out it was good when I drew it, big surprise :tongue:. This will probably change to something else (this and Sigarda are the most changeable slots). The Golgari Charm/Zealous split was because I wasn't sure if Omni was going to show up, and I wanted asymmetrical -1/-1 against Esper (in case we both have Souls tokens on the field).


-Matt

[sdematt]

I also just want to note that the RIP combo matchup is a fucking joke for us. That is all.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

I also just want to note that the RIP combo matchup is a fucking joke for us. That is all.

-Matt

Isn't that deck kind of a joke to begin with?

[.Ix]

Lost an online match to Maverick because of Mom...weird, I was thinking the same thing: find a way to protect the fatties, or better yet, get them through in combat regardless of blockers. Sylvan Safekeeper protects from removal, and is searchable with GSZ, but I somehow think Mom is the better of the two choices. I'm itching to try it...but jeesh, how do I find room?

I found that 4 Decay and 4 STP was a bit much even in an aggro meta, and you run 1 Vindicate. Maybe you could cut one of those. I'm running 3 GSZ and 4 knights so that 1 Safekeeper is doing some serious work for me.

[mike1987]

Thanks for the tips guys. I will try the needles and teeg against miracles, it seems awesome. And I hope the show and tell decks dont draw leyline in their opening 7. :laugh:

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks for the tips guys. I will try the needles and teeg against miracles, it seems awesome. And I hope the show and tell decks dont draw leyline in their opening 7. :laugh:

Even still, we have karakas and teeg

[Sughayyer]

On the issue about protecting creatures: wouldn't sejiri steppe be a "free" protection slot? Of course it sucks in an eventual opening hand, but it's tutorable - and with the knight+maze tech we will always have an untapped knight.
I know the lost land due to safekeeper can be re-used via shaman, but at 3 colors, it doesn't seem we have that much forests to spare... Does this make sense?
Or, maybe my concept about the deck is outdated (and that explains my poor performace lately)

[sdematt]

On the issue about protecting creatures: wouldn't sejiri steppe be a "free" protection slot? Of course it sucks in an eventual opening hand, but it's tutorable - and with the knight+maze tech we will always have an untapped knight.
I know the lost land due to safekeeper can be re-used via shaman, but at 3 colors, it doesn't seem we have that much forests to spare... Does this make sense?
Or, maybe my concept about the deck is outdated (and that explains my poor performace lately)

Safekeeper says to sac any land to grant protection. If you need to, you can sac a Maze, Karakas, or even a Wasteland you don't need. I feel like Steppe is good and out of nowhere, but it screws your manabase in very much the same way as Bojuka Bog (but worse since it's white mana).

-Matt

[mike1987]

Sorry to sidetrack a little, when facing burn or U/R delver, do you guys side out bobs?

[Sughayyer]

@matt
that's true, more often than not steppe hinders me. I didn't remember it was "any land" for safekeeper. I'll try to find space for a gsz pack to fit him. Would 2 gsz be enough? You're running 3 atm, right? But I feel also unconfortable with dryad arbor... If you have it in your opening, do you just play arbor, pass?

@mike
I side bobs out. When burn was rampant in my meta, I ran 2 rest for the weary. Gerrard's veredict is also good. For a while, I ran an e-tutor board. During that time I had a conversion. Monored will fold after that.

[Mr. Safety]

I found that 4 Decay and 4 STP was a bit much even in an aggro meta, and you run 1 Vindicate. Maybe you could cut one of those. I'm running 3 GSZ and 4 knights so that 1 Safekeeper is doing some serious work for me.

Good point...I'll got back to 3 Decay/1 Vindicate. I want a random way to deal with a resolved 4-mana PW outside of dudes in the maindeck.

I kind of want to use Loam with Safekeeper though...I really need to get Loam into my sideboard again, or even use that free slot I just got for it. I could always drop Witness for Safekeeper, but jeesh, Witness always shines in the late game.

@Sughayyer: I have been trying Sejiri Steppe in the slot most folks use Karakas (because I don't have one) but trust me, it's pretty lousy when you draw it. Sure if you have an active knight and they sling a removal it's ok, but I have found that discard is better at dealing with opposing removal. I play a LOT of discard though. I have since dropped it and going back to my old standby of Volrath's Stronghold.

Regarding Miracles: I got Jace needled in one matchup (didn't see Counterbalance at all, ironically) but still lost to Elspeth. Bummer...

I sideboard Bob out for Natural Order, usually taking out some targeted discard which is also fairly bad in the same matchups I don't want Bob.

[.Ix]

@matt
But I feel also unconfortable with dryad arbor... If you have it in your opening, do you just play arbor, pass?


This was a point of discussion in the Elves thread. It really sucks to have arbor in hand, but at least this deck gets around 19% chance to play GSZ -> arbor turn 1 unlike Elves. (The probability of getting Arbor in the opening hand is 11%, so you have 7% gain.)

I would only play arbor if it were my last land in hand or if I needed a blocker. Getting Time Walked by a bolt feels terrible.

[sdematt]

@matt
that's true, more often than not steppe hinders me. I didn't remember it was "any land" for safekeeper. I'll try to find space for a gsz pack to fit him. Would 2 gsz be enough? You're running 3 atm, right? But I feel also unconfortable with dryad arbor... If you have it in your opening, do you just play arbor, pass?

@mike
I side bobs out. When burn was rampant in my meta, I ran 2 rest for the weary. Gerrard's veredict is also good. For a while, I ran an e-tutor board. During that time I had a conversion. Monored will fold after that.

I'm running 3 GSZ, but you can run 2. You don't have to run Dryad Arbor, but it does give you another Turn 1 acceleration play. If I do have Dryad Arbor in my hand, I usually play it out to get it Wastelanded against a Control deck since you have the time, or, I'll run it out later so I don't interrupt casting spells as much. Say I have 2 lands and Arbor with stuff in my hand at 1 and 2 CMC, I'll play it as my third land.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

I tried out the Sejiri Steppe tech in the past and really didn't like it.

Here's why:

1) If you don't have Maze out, it means you can't attack with your Knights without risking removal.
2) If you do have Maze out, they can just kill your Knight in response to your Maze activation.
3) It messes with your manabase. We're already running Karakas, Wastelands, sometimes Maze, sometimes Dryad Arbor, sometimes Bojuka Bog - another ETB tapped land that produces only white continues to strain what is already a pretty stressed manabase.

==========================================

Here's a Dark Maverick / Junk list I've been idly playing around with:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
3 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)

Testing has been showing that it's... weird. We all know Mom is amazing if you draw her early. Sometimes the deck is awesome and you get Mom + beater out, but sometimes you get the other hands/draws where you lose your beaters to removal THEN draw your Moms.

[.Ix]

If I do have Dryad Arbor in my hand, I usually play it out to get it Wastelanded against a Control deck since you have the time
-Matt

Nice. I didn't think of that. Playing Arbor will make it look like you don't have any other lands to play, so they could be tempted to Wasteland it.

[Claymore]

Problem with that is all those Arbor, Wasteland, Confidant, Knight, Thoughtseize, Library, Goyf hands I manage to draw whenever I put Arbor into a deck, haha.

[Mr. Safety]

I'll always have a Dryad Arbor maindeck, if only for Natural Order in the sideboard. It's a different situation with me though...because more often than not I get Arbor with Catacombs/Foothills/Misty (no Heaths in my collection.) Seven out of my eight fetchlands grab Forests, just so I can make sure I have a NO sac target. This is another reason for using Volrath's Stronghold, too...Wasteland can't get rid of Arbor permanently when I can just put it to the top of my library. If they waste Stronghold instead, that's fine. That lets Arbor convert into an angry updrade with torn purple shorts.

[Koplinchen]

I won small local tournament yesterday. I had a lot of fun with lavafrogg list (different SB):

4 Tarmogyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowhares
3 Abropt Decay
1 Umazawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Side:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umazawa's Jitte
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engeneerd Explosives
1 Darkblast
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Lingering Souls
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Life from the Loam


I beat Maverick 2-0, Ant 2-1, High Tide 2-0; I lost to Maverick in the last round 1-2.

The games I lost against Maverick were because of my opponent's - play+instant equip and attack with Jitte - for which I had no answer.
I really enjoyed games against combo - expecially against High Tide - he brainfreezed me for 45 - three cards left in my deck and two Confidants on the table. Drew all three, sacrificed Confidants to Therapies that he milled into my grave - GSZ for zero and win. Great deck - give it a try.

[Esper3k]

I like the list, but 20 lands feels low to me even with 4 Deathrites.

[Sughayyer]

I like the list, but 20 lands feels low to me even with 4 Deathrites.

same here.

[sdematt]

Nice. I didn't think of that. Playing Arbor will make it look like you don't have any other lands to play, so they could be tempted to Wasteland it.

Exactly. It's a game of misinformation at that point. Plus, if they let it live, next turn you just muck them with Cabal Therapy. A good play I've been trying recently is:

T1: GSZ on 0 for Arbor off a Bayou
T2: Cabal Therapy, attack for 1, Cabal Therapy.

That's pretty decent.

-Matt

[Koplinchen]

I had the same feelings in the first place but it works. I lost two rounds in three tournaments so far. (Maverick, Mud)
No knights, only six cards for 3, 4 zenith, 3 library, 4 shaman. Your topdecks are much better. Two three lands is all you ever need.

[.Ix]

A good play I've been trying recently is:

T1: GSZ on 0 for Arbor off a Bayou
T2: Cabal Therapy, attack for 1, Cabal Therapy.

That's pretty decent.

-Matt

Definitely good considering you don't even have to make a second land drop for that line. If you get to Wasteland something after that you're WAY ahead. Because of Therapy and the disruption angle, this deck gains a lot more from Arbor than both Elves and Maverick.

[Mr. Safety]

I like it better than Hymn to Tourach...I've actually dropped them from my list for now. I know it's a 2-for-1 but I think what makes Rock/Junk better than Jund is that rather than getting card advantage we're always 'trading up.' The quality of our plays are better than opponents, and if we are getting an extra higher quality play each turn with Bob/Library, that's how we achieve advantage. I have found that I like my Volrath's Stronghold and full set of Wastelands too much to try and get something like Hymn to work consistently. Liliana is worth the risk and Eternal Witness is for late game anyways (and can be done with GSZ.) Everything else rewards me for having a diversified mana base, and allows me to ride basic lands if need be. Hymn just can't be pulled off with only basics, at least I haven't figured it out. I still need a Karakas, but other than that, I'm settled for now. The only question is whether to use Duress or IoK. IoK still gets Show and Tell, Duress gets countermagic. Testing is in order.

[damionblackgear]

The only question is whether to use Duress or IoK. IoK still gets Show and Tell, Duress gets countermagic. Testing is in order.

Duress can grab Omniscience and Sneak Attack (figured I'd stay with the SnT matchup). If IOK could grab Grislebrand or Emrakul I'd say go with that but, for now, I'd advise Duress over IOK.

[Kpicco]

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

[Sughayyer]

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

I don't like more than 1 library either, and I usually run top instead (orsometimes a split). But the reasons are (I guess): the deck already runs from 8 to 16 1-drops; most junk players now say that top is an early mana sink - they also say that library draws cards, while top does not; and 3 libraries because they want to find it fast, and the first one will probably be decayed. As for me, I like library, but I can't play bob without top.

[damionblackgear]

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

Not everyone plays 3 but, the card functions in a similar way to top (see the top 3 cards) but it also allows you to draw multiple cards and has no post-cast mana investment. You only really do the fetch --> look --> repeat(?) thing with top when you're in a desperate situation. That's become less relevant as the list(s) have been becoming more consistent (more players play/test the deck).

This next part is going to sound bad but read it all before you judge - people who don't play junk should offer advise but, trusting them on the decks design or play-style at face value is a losing bet. Most people's thoughts help us get more info and can sometimes be insightful but a logical* reason should be required as to why something is/should be different before a permanent** change should be made. So, additional input, even from players of any level, can be incorrect*** but should be welcome. Just remember to always ask them why they think it.

* The reason should make sense to a 4-5 year old child as well as a seasoned chess master. If it wouldn't convince both, it's not real logic****.
** No change or card should be looked at as permanent. Everything should always be on the chopping block.
*** Good player does not equal good deck builder, or vice versa.
**** Unless you're trying to convince AJ Ka... don't care enough to look it up.

[Kich867]

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

Library is the single most powerful card in the deck. Hands down. I snap keep almost any hand that has 1-2 libraries in it. Any single deck that can possibly kill it or stop it, will. They likely won't stop the second though.

Library is the auto counter, auto discard, auto destroy, depending on whether it's on the stack in your hand or in play. It probably seems bad in testing because no one is doing shit to it. You pretty much need to see it and it's so stupidly powerful that I never care about having two. Sometimes I discard the other to Liliana if it's truly dead, which is fine.

[Kich867]

I don't like more than 1 library either, and I usually run top instead (orsometimes a split). But the reasons are (I guess): the deck already runs from 8 to 16 1-drops; most junk players now say that top is an early mana sink - they also say that library draws cards, while top does not; and 3 libraries because they want to find it fast, and the first one will probably be decayed. As for me, I like library, but I can't play bob without top.

I've been playing Bob with just Library since Matt Pavlic instructed me to run 3 libraries and I've never looked back. Bob doesn't actually do that much damage to you to warrant the requirement and mana sink of Top. Think about it--Bob either instantly dies or he stays alive. If he stays alive you'll very likely win the game. If he dies it's fine and things are normal. Your life total in this deck almost doesn't matter, I regularly destroy myself with library and bob--but it doesn't matter. The games I lose are when I simply have no board position, and no amount of top decks will save me.

Bob on average will probably do about 1 damage per turn over the course of N turns in The Rock. Rock is also a deck that curves out pretty well, so at what time do you activate top? Turn 1 top, turn 2 bob/goyf/decay, can't top, turn 3 knight/liliana/lingering souls, can't top, so now top has just sat there for two turns doing nothing. No top means you're more open to do things like turn 1 discard into turn 2 library which puts you stupidly far ahead.

[sdematt]

Someone help me out here.
I just can't quite grasp why everyone in this thread is running 3 Sylvan Libraries.
It just seems bad, even in testing for me.
Even the best players I know don't understand (albeit none of them play junk.)

This is actually a really good question that I get from everyone. "Why play 3 Sylvan Library? It's SO bad in multiples!"

There's an old magic addage from a while back that I'll quote.

Play 4 if you want to see it every game, at least once and maybe twice.
Play 3 if you want to see it almost every game, probably once.
Play 2 if you want to see if every few games, now and then.
Play 1 if you only want it once in a while or you have a tutor for it.

I'm playing 3 because I want to see it in a game, but 4 is too much. Sylvan is bonkers because against decks where you need the cards and have the life, you just turn 16 life points into 4 extra cards over the course of your game, and usually more since your guys bite a Swords to Plowshares, allowing an extra 1-2 cards drawn. Against something like Miracle Control, it spells game over.

The main problem lately with Top is Tempo decks love to take advantage of you sinking mana into spinning Top. Say you get a Top down and then you're low on mana. You spin Top and then are unable to cast as many spells as quickly. Any Tempo player now Wastelands you, Dazes you, or presents a threat while you're busy paying to look at cards. Even in a non-tempo scenario, the main advantage of Top is looking mid-turn and it is harder to Abrupt Decay. I don't think we have the time anymore to play around with mana in the early game with Top. Sylvan allows us to "set it and forget it" (remember the infomercial?) and then either look or just draw extra cards. Miracle Control loves Top since they also had Brainstorm to help and Terminus to make the looking worthwhile, whereas we do not.

It's about spending your mana on cards to play, and life to find those cards instead of using the same resource (mana) to both find AND play them. There's only so many things you can do at one time with so many resources, and in a format as cutthroat as Legacy, you cannot afford to be inefficient.

I'd still run 1-2 Top if I had room. The card is good when it's good, but for different reasons. Right now, there's better cards than Top.

As for running "so many" Libraries, the case is this. You want to see it, so playing one means you'll see it once in a while, maybe. Once Sylvan lands, you usually win the game. The first thing I Abrupt Decay when playing against Maverick or something is the Sylvan if I can, since it just takes you so far ahead of your opponent. Being able to follow it up with another if need be is crucial. My BUg Landstill opponent Force of Willed my Sylvan Library in Game 2 on Turn 2 and had to nut himself a bit. The play was worth it though, since otherwise, I just draw 4 cards and he dies. Instead, I drew another Library turns later THEN killed him.

TL: DR

You know when you play it that it's a good card, and you'd think to max out on good cards so you can win more. Then why do people suggest a lone Sylvan Library? Play 2-3 so you can see it. If you have multiples, big deal. You can ditch it to Liliana, bluff it as another card, or play the second to gain marginal advantage when drawing extra.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, I'm still planning on continuing with articles, but school is still too busy :/

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

No need for me to beat this horse; it's already quite dead. I just want to reinforce what Kich was saying about Bob: the bastard barely lives more than a turn or so. The way I see it, you're paying two mana to force your opponent to discard a removal or counter spell. Then the goof stumbles in to maul them.

I was playing against my buddy at Edison, he was on punishing Mav; I was at 9 life, and I slammed down two Bobs on an empty table. I won the game at 3 life, because Bobs drew me lands and removal spells. He hurts us, but he helps up so much more; I don't even side him out against Burn, since I want the extra discard and possibility to draw into something like Jitte.

[.Ix]

I've been playing Bob with just Library since Matt Pavlic instructed me to run 3 libraries and I've never looked back. Bob doesn't actually do that much damage to you to warrant the requirement and mana sink of Top. Think about it--Bob either instantly dies or he stays alive. If he stays alive you'll very likely win the game. If he dies it's fine and things are normal. Your life total in this deck almost doesn't matter, I regularly destroy myself with library and bob--but it doesn't matter. The games I lose are when I simply have no board position, and no amount of top decks will save me.

Bob on average will probably do about 1 damage per turn over the course of N turns in The Rock. Rock is also a deck that curves out pretty well, so at what time do you activate top? Turn 1 top, turn 2 bob/goyf/decay, can't top, turn 3 knight/liliana/lingering souls, can't top, so now top has just sat there for two turns doing nothing. No top means you're more open to do things like turn 1 discard into turn 2 library which puts you stupidly far ahead.


I agree with this. I tried Top a few times just because everyone else ran it, but I always hated having to pay mana for its ability because I only really have spare mana late in the game. I'd prefer to burn/gain life with Shaman anyway. The deck really doesn't need Top to play Bob. Doesn't even hurt that much, and it can be offset with Shaman and Jitte.

About Library, I run 2 of those because they are so good. Any blue player will scramble to deal with it ASAP because they know it can bury them. If you play Library into a FOW, it's a fantastic 2-for-1 that will help you resolve actual threats. If it resolves, you're going to find actual threats with Library soon enough. I'm not running 3 since they're already hard enough to remove in my meta, but I could do that in a Decay-heavy or grindy environment.

[Sughayyer]

After all that being said, I realize that I'm failing to adapt to the current meta (probably due to the time I spent away). I'll try building/playing differently.

Also, this afternoon I'll test something like this:
3 deathrite shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant
1 ulvenwald tracker
1 sylvan safekeeper

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

2 green sun zenith
2 library
1 life from the loam

2 liliana otv

6 discard spells

1 free slot... Suggestions?

The same 23 lands (including maze) but 3 waste and 1 arbor.

Is it playable?

[Barbed Blightning]

After all that being said, I realize that I'm failing to adapt to the current meta (probably due to the time I spent away). I'll try building/playing differently.

Also, this afternoon I'll test something like this:
3 deathrite shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant
1 ulvenwald tracker
1 sylvan safekeeper

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

2 green sun zenith
2 library
1 life from the loam

2 liliana otv

6 discard spells

1 free slot... Suggestions?

The same 23 lands (including maze) but 3 waste and 1 arbor.

Is it playable?

Playable, but bring the DRS count up to 4

[dballard]

Another point that I don't think was mentioned in the Sylvan Library v. Top argument is that, with the emergence of Deathrite Shaman, you're already tapping out a land for activation every turn. Can you really afford to do that AND activate top? Probably not in the early to mid-game.

[Kpicco]

I appreciate all the responses and help with my question about Library.
I had already taken tops out of the list through my own testing but had only been playing one Library.

I have a second question:

What are everyone's thoughts on Mox Diamond? I currently own / play with 3 mb and I really like it. It's mostly because I play a combo heavy meta (SoCal) both at big events and definitely at my local shop, so I like popping out first turn Teegs / Thalias (post board) / double discard. Also (while I don't play with goyf, purely based on financial reasons I.E. waiting for Modern Master) the argument that it's a dead drop late game... You can cast it without the land discard and bump your goyfs up +1/+1 - assuming there is no artifact in the GY.

Everyone I know dislikes my choice in playing it, but I've enjoyed it in testing so far.

[Arsenal]

With the printing of DRS, I think Mox Diamond is mostly unneeded. While you can't drop a Bob turn 1, you'll be at the same mana level (3 mana available) on turn 2 with DRS or MDiamond, but DRS is 1,000x more versatile. I'd sacrifice a bit of turn 1 speed with consistency and versatility turns 2-N.

[sdematt]

Most of the choices for this deck are based entirely on your meta, much more so than other decks. If you feel you need the Moxen if you're in a really combo heavy meta, then it's perfectly fine. The game may not go long enough for the late game dead-draws of Moxen to be relevant.

I mean, in a combo heavy meat, I'd run Lilianas, more discard, and probably Moxen too. But, I'm not in that situation.

I'd get Goyfs when you can. He's still VERY good.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I've seen people who can't afford Goyf's running Scavenging Ooze and while not exactly the same, Ooze has been putting in some work. Maybe it helps that my meta has lots of graveyard based decks, but whenever I see people playing Ooze (knowing that they're playing him due to 0 Goyfs) and wrecking house, I always wonder...

[Kpicco]

I do play with 4 Deathrite Shamans. And they are tied with Bob for my favorite card. :3
My usual turn one play is: Fetch, Mox Diamond, Duress, DRS.

Matt - I want him... and thoughtsieze... so bad. But their prices are ludicrous. 110$ for a vanilla beats is not okay.

[dballard]

Matt - I want him... and thoughtsieze... so bad. But their prices are ludicrous. 110$ for a vanilla beats is not okay.

I'm in the same boat. I just refuse to pay for those cards when there are alternatives (albeit not as strong). I'll wait for Modern Masters tyvm.

[damionblackgear]

I've switched back to Diamonds after testing some non-diamond builds. I like the diamonds for range of 2cc creatures I run. More than that, I like it because it fixes colors. The Shaman under preforms for me every time (it's probably how I'm using it) and I've returned it to the replacement for Birds of paradise. I'm still testing the Strangleroot Geist in the Goyf slot and I've been very pleased with it. I know it's double green but it is an alternative that makes people have to think twice a lot of the time (once they've seen it).

[Barbed Blightning]

Ultimately, there is no replacement for goyf, esp. In a combo meta (NY state is also fairly combo infested). Our deck has no better beatstick vs. combo, as the insane, immediate pressure he grants us can either force them to combo out ineffectively or straight up maul them before they get the chance.

TL;DR-- get goyfs. At the very least, he'll retain value

[Koplinchen]

In combo meta just play build with Cabal Therapy maindeck. My meta is full of combo and with 3+3 discards, 3 liliana, 4zenith, Ooze and Shamans, Wastelands I even take game one sometimes. It is very interesting matchup to play. I enjoy it a lot.

[Barbed Blightning]

In combo meta just play build with Cabal Therapy maindeck. My meta is full of combo and with 3+3 discards, 3 liliana, 4zenith, Ooze and Shamans, Wastelands I even take game one sometimes. It is very interesting matchup to play. I enjoy it a lot.

I would say, then, that goyf are the difference between taking game one sometimes and taking it most of the time

[Sughayyer]

Regarding my tests with the list I posted:
i didn't use tracer once. Also, safekeeper and knight is funny.
By playing with gsz the deck feels totally different... It's VERY different than my old strategy wreck hand/play fatty/kill blockers. I still don't know if I like it. Maybe I'm just too fond of the old dark horizons strategy... Is it really dead?

[sdematt]

Regarding my tests with the list I posted:
i didn't use tracer once. Also, safekeeper and knight is funny.
By playing with gsz the deck feels totally different... It's VERY different than my old strategy wreck hand/play fatty/kill blockers. I still don't know if I like it. Maybe I'm just too fond of the old dark horizons strategy... Is it really dead?

I don't think it's dead, I just think having the versatility is better in such a wide open meta may be better. If it was more Combo-oriented or less open, than the usual Dark Horizons lists, tweaked for today, could come back. Right now it's about the long game, and those builds aren't about the long game.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

After all that being said, I realize that I'm failing to adapt to the current meta (probably due to the time I spent away). I'll try building/playing differently.

Also, this afternoon I'll test something like this:
3 deathrite shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant
1 ulvenwald tracker
1 sylvan safekeeper

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

2 green sun zenith
2 library
1 life from the loam

2 liliana otv

6 discard spells

1 free slot... Suggestions?

The same 23 lands (including maze) but 3 waste and 1 arbor.

Is it playable?

In the free slot, play Jitte. I've been doing that and liking it. It's nice to have SOME source of lifegain in the maindeck, besides shaman, to offset Bob dings.

[Mr. Safety]

Library is the single most powerful card in the deck. Hands down. I snap keep almost any hand that has 1-2 libraries in it. Any single deck that can possibly kill it or stop it, will. They likely won't stop the second though.

Library is the auto counter, auto discard, auto destroy, depending on whether it's on the stack in your hand or in play. It probably seems bad in testing because no one is doing shit to it. You pretty much need to see it and it's so stupidly powerful that I never care about having two. Sometimes I discard the other to Liliana if it's truly dead, which is fine.

I agree totally, and the only reason I'm not using 3 is the lack of room. I could swap out my singleton Jitte, but I've been really happy to have that available in the maindeck, freeing up a little sideboard space (NO-Pro is a fat little sideboard space hoarder, I have 6 slots dedicated to it: 4 NO's, 1x Prog, 1x Empyrial Archangel for burn.)

[Mr. Safety]

Duress can grab Omniscience and Sneak Attack (figured I'd stay with the SnT matchup). If IOK could grab Grislebrand or Emrakul I'd say go with that but, for now, I'd advise Duress over IOK.

Thanks for that! Helped me decide, going with 3x Duress. I run a ton of removal anyways, so there's no point in hoping to nab early dudes with IoK when I can deal with them by killing them. Duress takes away THEIR removal/disruption, and is generally better against combo decks. ;) Thanks!

[Sughayyer]

I played with a modified version of lavafrogg's list. Had a blast, won against bug and jund :) I'll test more later.
I was using only 2 gsz, and for the quantity of fetcheable creatures I ran it was great. I ran also 21 lands. Then I figured that with virtually 6 acceleration cards, it was more than enough.

[Koplinchen]

Played the Lavagrogg list with modified side as I posted a few pages back on Thursday. And I have to admit I struggled a bit for first time in 4 tournament finishing with unimpressive 2:2. I beat Canadian - one of the best matchups and ANT - matchup I enjoy a lot to play against (I mulled into oblivion game one, scooped and then won games two and three with zounds of dicard, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Spellbomb)
But now the more important. I lost against punishing JUND and Elves. Jund manascrewed me with bolts, hymns, wastelands and with the fact I didnt draw many lands. We played a few games afterward - when I resolved full Lingering Souls I won - but this matchup is even imo.
Elves are traditionaly good against fair decks. They have so many angles of attack. Killed me with Behemont game one and with Jitte, game two. I think I will add another Ethersworn Canonist or extra Darkblast.

Jitte is extremly powerful against this version of JUNK. Have Abrupt Decay ready. Another cards that causes most worries: Sensei's Divining Top, Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[Sughayyer]

Played the Lavagrogg list with modified side as I posted a few pages back on Thursday. And I have to admit I struggled a bit for first time in 4 tournament finishing with unimpressive 2:2. I beat Canadian - one of the best matchups and ANT - matchup I enjoy a lot to play against (I mulled into oblivion game one, scooped and then won games two and three with zounds of dicard, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Spellbomb)
But now the more important. I lost against punishing JUND and Elves. Jund manascrewed me with bolts, hymns, wastelands and with the fact I didnt draw many lands. We played a few games afterward - when I resolved full Lingering Souls I won - but this matchup is even imo.
Elves are traditionaly good against fair decks. They have so many angles of attack. Killed me with Behemont game one and with Jitte, game two. I think I will add another Ethersworn Canonist or extra Darkblast.

Jitte is extremly powerful against this version of JUNK. Have Abrupt Decay ready. Another cards that causes most worries: Sensei's Divining Top, Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

@ elves - when I ran deed and hymn elves was a very easy match-up. Now, with 8 removals, 7 discards, and deed and zealous on the side sounds good as well.
@ manascrew - quoting a friend of mine "good decks are suceptible to wasteland". I'm not afraid of life from the loam.
@ pfire jund - that is a pain. But the same way that happened to caw-blade in Standard, jund is a "trending" deck, and not everyone piloting it is good at it (same goes for bug). And we all have to concede that pfire is a lazy wincon (extirpate, surgical in response of the trigger, etc).
I DO miss reliquary, however goyf is big. If I could I'd make room for blossom, card is nice. When I ran BW with blossom and souls I used to laugh at jace :p

[ryn ball_2]

Went 3-2 in a 22-man legacy tourney placing 9th. Here's my quick list

3 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 deathrite shaman

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay

2 liliana of the veil
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
3 bayou
3 scrubland
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats

SB
4 leyline of sanctity
3 surgical extraction
2 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict
2 timely reinforcements
1 pernicious deed
1 perish

R1 vs scapewish nic fit: 1-2: i should hardcast sanctity instead of decaying his ooze so that it will not end up easily w/ scapeshift-valakut combo
R2 vs infect: 2-0
R3 vs affinity: 0-2: no removals, i think i will up my deeds, replacing my EEs
R4 vs RDW: 2-1
R5 vs MBC: 2-0

I thought i was facing many jund decks, cuz on the same local shop around 2-3 players playing jund so i include sanctity on my SB, what are your SB tech against jund?

[Koplinchen]

@ elves - when I ran deed and hymn elves was a very easy match-up. Now, with 8 removals, 7 discards, and deed and zealous on the side sounds good as well.
@ manascrew - quoting a friend of mine "good decks are suceptible to wasteland". I'm not afraid of life from the loam.
@ pfire jund - that is a pain. But the same way that happened to caw-blade in Standard, jund is a "trending" deck, and not everyone piloting it is good at it (same goes for bug). And we all have to concede that pfire is a lazy wincon (extirpate, surgical in response of the trigger, etc).
I DO miss reliquary, however goyf is big. If I could I'd make room for blossom, card is nice. When I ran BW with blossom and souls I used to laugh at jace :p

Pernicious Deed is awfuly slow against Elves. Hymn is OK.

[Mr. Safety]

Pernicious Deed is awfuly slow against Elves. Hymn is OK.

I agree...but it can support your already strong removal plan. I like E-tutor into Engineered Plague, Deed is just a supplemental wiper.

[sdematt]

I played a BW tokens list on Thursday just to take a break from Junk and won the tournament. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls is a thing.

Lingering Souls is definitely helpful in this matchup, I've found. Maelstorm Pulse out of nowhere can suck, but otherwise, super good.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I've been testing on the Magic Workstation online abyss, and I've been destroying BUG Delver, CounterTop-Bant (seemed like an old list), and even did fairly well against Omni-Tell (Sculler is an all-star against that deck.)

I've really liked Duress so far over IoK...but there have been times I wish I had IoK.

I have to admit, Dark Confidant is a fucking house. I love drawing multiples, because the first usually hits the dirt. I know that this is common knowledge, but I just have to say it. He's winning a lot of games for me.

[KobeBryan]

I've been testing on the Magic Workstation online abyss, and I've been destroying BUG Delver, CounterTop-Bant (seemed like an old list), and even did fairly well against Omni-Tell (Sculler is an all-star against that deck.)

I've really liked Duress so far over IoK...but there have been times I wish I had IoK.

I have to admit, Dark Confidant is a fucking house. I love drawing multiples, because the first usually hits the dirt. I know that this is common knowledge, but I just have to say it. He's winning a lot of games for me.

bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

[Barbed Blightning]

bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

+1 this. It's far away better than any alternative; it's like the difference between strangleroot or ooze and goyf.

[Sughayyer]

@matt did you run shaman in your bw list?

@all:
the list I used:

3 cabal therapy
2 iok
2 seize

4 stp
3 decay
1 pulse

2 liliana

1 top
1 library
1 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice

4 shaman
4 bob
4 goyf
4 souls
2 gsz

lands:
4 waste
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
3 scrub
3 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
1 dryad arbor

sideboard:
2 finks
1 gaddock
2 zealous persecution
2 deed (super synergy lol)
2 surgical
1 extirpate
3 hymn to tourach
2 oblivion ring

[Arsenal]

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls is a thing.

I asked a few pages ago how Lingering Souls + Sorin would play, as I thought it'd be really good (Sorin's +1/0 emblem >>>>> Elspeth's pump+jump ability). How often did you find yourself activating Sorin's ultimate?

[sdematt]

I asked a few pages ago how Lingering Souls + Sorin would play, as I thought it'd be really good (Sorin's +1/0 emblem >>>>> Elspeth's pump+jump ability). How often did you find yourself activating Sorin's ultimate?

I never got to activate the ultimate, unfortunately. He got sniped every time I played him (Bolt, EOT Mindcensor, etc.). But the +1/+0 was good.

@ Sug

Yes, i ran Deathrite. I'll post the list later for anyone's fun. But seriously, Jund has fits against that many tokens, holy hell.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

bite the bullet and run thoughtseize.

:really: Playing 3 Thoughtseize maindeck...the other 3 slots are supplemental targeted disruption. I play 6 targeted discards, plus 2x Sculler, in my maindeck. It's a combo world in my area, it's been giving me options when I would normally just fold.

EDIT: Just won 2 matches vs. Pox online (4-1)

[KobeBryan]

:really: Playing 3 Thoughtseize maindeck...the other 3 slots are supplemental targeted disruption. I play 6 targeted discards, plus 2x Sculler, in my maindeck. It's a combo world in my area, it's been giving me options when I would normally just fold.

EDIT: Just won 2 matches vs. Pox online (4-1)

In that case, run IOK. and run 4 thoughtseize

Since its likely you will get thoughtseize in your opening hand, you can cover the rest with IOK.

besides, there aren't that many cards IOK can't get...Natural order, jace, sneak attack. belcher, and thats mostly it on top of my head.

[syfilisx]

Friend and I have been playing Rock lately. Me mostly in Cockatrice testing different cards for him, he does the playing with cardboard, since I derp around with UR Delvermagus mostly.

Today was GPT Strassbourg, he went 3-2, getting thirteenth.

R1: RUG 0-2, Had not practiced Mu too much and run into some pretty cheap traps.
R2: UR Delvermagus (me) 2-0, So tournament ruined for one of us. He emerged winner after two tight games.
R3: Burn 1-2, Lost pretty tightly
R4: Zoo 2-1
R5: Goblins 2-1
One more win for top8, though meta had 9 combos, and winning that Burn would probably leave him playing some of them, so hard to predict. First round opponent Rug played in finals.

And here's the list

Maindeck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lingering Souls
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring

[damionblackgear]

besides, there aren't that many cards IOK can't get...Natural order, jace, sneak attack. belcher, and thats mostly it on top of my head.

Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

[KobeBryan]

Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

Thats why you still have 4 thoughtseizes...why would you run 3 thoughtseizes and 3 iok/duress?

[Barbed Blightning]

Thats why you still have 4 thoughtseizes...why would you run 3 thoughtseizes and 3 iok/duress?

Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

IoK hits a ton of burn's spells, and Duress hit almost 100% of Burn's spells. Thoughtseize is still a free Shock to them. Goblin Guide can be killed with Decay/Swords/superior blockers.

From damionblackgear:

Did you notice how all of those win games? Not 1 of those cards can be concidered less than a threat. There are reasons Pulse is still a thing in our lists, post Decay. Spells are the issue, not creatures.

This is the biggest reason for playing Duress alongside Thoughtseize, it trades with a TON of threatening cards. The only reason I used IoK in my last local tournament was because the only real combo deck was Show and Tell...and IoK deals with aggro decks nicely while still hitting S&T.

Lastly, I'd play 4x Thoughtseize, but I only have 3. Biggest reason right there, but I still want 6 turn 1 discards that target. That's just how I roll. In all seriousness, I actually sideboard out TS for Hymn in the sideboard against burn.

[damionblackgear]

Agreed. Even against burn, you're saving yourself some damage.

I was leaving that one out of it for a reason. It's a common misconception but, you're not saving yourself anywhere near the amount of damage this is played to. Example, Lightning Bolt is 3 damage. If you take it with Thoughtseize, you've saved 1 damage. Fireblast is 2 damage. Your best hope is to take Price when you've been unable to play basics.

Even if you're taking something that does more that the Thoughtseize. there's no guaranteeing that they would've needed that card or that the 1-2 life you're saving is relevant. You also gave them 2 damage free of charge. If there's one thing that everyone's love of Force of will should have taught you in this matter, "Free is worth an extra card."

Thoughtseizing a burn deck (or deck with reach) is giving them an extra tool to win, You. Against those decks, both Duress and IoK are superior to Thoughtseize. Also, depending on the meta, that's also the reason to run a 3/3 split.

When Burn was doing well from all the new players at SCG, I ran IoK over Thoguhtseize (4/0). My sideboard card at the time was Duress. I played it that way because, at that time, there weren't all the different threats above 3. IoK dealt with all but about 4 cards in the format which were all part of already bad match-ups. In today's meta, there are decks designed to be able to last and use cards that cost 4+ to win the game. IoK is no longer able to get as much value as it previously did. Duress is more capable as an assist to the discard package.

-Edit- Did I ever mention how much I hate being the opening post of a page?

[Barbed Blightning]

IoK hits a ton of burn's spells, and Duress hit almost 100% of Burn's spells. Thoughtseize is still a free Shock to them. Goblin Guide can be killed with Decay/Swords/superior blockers.

From damionblackgear:

This is the biggest reason for playing Duress alongside Thoughtseize, it trades with a TON of threatening cards. The only reason I used IoK in my last local tournament was because the only real combo deck was Show and Tell...and IoK deals with aggro decks nicely while still hitting S&T.

Lastly, I'd play 4x Thoughtseize, but I only have 3. Biggest reason right there, but I still want 6 turn 1 discards that target. That's just how I roll. In all seriousness, I actually sideboard out TS for Hymn in the sideboard against burn.

The fact remains that thoughtseize still is more powerful and more flexible than either duress or iok. I will never run fewer than 4.

Iok and duress matter for your meta, I suppose. As you said duress for spells, iok for creatures. 6 discard main is correct regardless.

[Petree]

IMO, 4 thoughtsiezes is what i'm running, I just like the options it gives me but thats also because I run 8 discard spells.

Still IMO, I believe if you are running a 3/3 split, then it should be 3 thoughtseize/ 3 duresses.... unless you want 4 thought seize/ 2 duress... With the way the meta is shifting right now (more combo and control making its way back) I like having the power of duress over IOK at the moment... It almost seems like esper will be a popular deck again, and duress just gets all counter spells and jace. Unless we see an emergence of RUG again or even American Delver, IOK is much better. But you know how it is for me, its all based on what you like....

[Mr. Safety]

Still IMO, I believe if you are running a 3/3 split, then it should be 3 thoughtseize/ 3 duresses.... unless you want 4 thought seize/ 2 duress... With the way the meta is shifting right now (more combo and control making its way back) I like having the power of duress over IOK at the moment... It almost seems like esper will be a popular deck again, and duress just gets all counter spells and jace. Unless we see an emergence of RUG again or even American Delver, IOK is much better. But you know how it is for me, its all based on what you like....

Bingo...I expect combo in droves, probably more than normal because of the Jund/mid-range uprising.

[Barbed Blightning]

I was leaving that one out of it for a reason. It's a common misconception but, you're not saving yourself anywhere near the amount of damage this is played to. Example, Lightning Bolt is 3 damage. If you take it with Thoughtseize, you've saved 1 damage. Fireblast is 2 damage. Your best hope is to take Price when you've been unable to play basics.

Even if you're taking something that does more that the Thoughtseize. there's no guaranteeing that they would've needed that card or that the 1-2 life you're saving is relevant. You also gave them 2 damage free of charge. If there's one thing that everyone's love of Force of will should have taught you in this matter, "Free is worth an extra card."

Thoughtseizing a burn deck (or deck with reach) is giving them an extra tool to win, You. Against those decks, both Duress and IoK are superior to Thoughtseize. Also, depending on the meta, that's also the reason to run a 3/3 split.

When Burn was doing well from all the new players at SCG, I ran IoK over Thoguhtseize (4/0). My sideboard card at the time was Duress. I played it that way because, at that time, there weren't all the different threats above 3. IoK dealt with all but about 4 cards in the format which were all part of already bad match-ups. In today's meta, there are decks designed to be able to last and use cards that cost 4+ to win the game. IoK is no longer able to get as much value as it previously did. Duress is more capable as an assist to the discard package.

-Edit- Did I ever mention how much I hate being the opening post of a page?

Burn is just one matchup, and I will gladly take two to prevent the 2-8 damage of a price. As you said, cmc 4+ is gaining popularity, so I would rather hurt my burn matchup slightly to keep the big matchups good

An open is also the last place I would get rid of thoughtseize. You need the versatility of that card for the sheer randomness of what you will play. Sure, burn could be popular... and you'll play combo for six rounds and midrange for three.

[KobeBryan]

So the ONLY reason you don't want ot play thoughtseize is because of burn decks.

For that reason, I would consider it negligible, as i don't even consider burn a deck.

[Petree]

Agreed. Burn is a deck but not real enough for me even though it is a very bad match up for rock. If your running deathrite shamen you shouldn't even have to worry about burn lol they either have to waste a spell on him or you. For me though, I don't even run deathrite shamen anymore i'm back to the mox diamonds but I still leave in my thoughtseizes. shit... I rather take two than take four from fireblast or price.

[sdematt]

You can't count on DRS being the key to winning against Burn. You basically have to play tight, and go balls to the wall with Tarmogoyf and fetch basics. Swords your own guys if you have to (and you should). If they're smart, they'll ignore all your creatures and go for 21 to the dome. If you have Jitte, that ends the game (or Timely or something). If not, don't worry about that matchup. If you have marginal hate that helps, great, if not, you're running the wrong deck to beat burn (instead, try RIP combo).

Nourish is also a thing, or Hero's Reunion, etc.


-Matt

[damionblackgear]

We all know that the Burn match is bad. We've all unsuccessfully tried many things to fix that. Luckily for us it's receded in popularity. It's a shunned deck, but it is a deck. May I remind you all, Burn is the deck your meta will give to newer players to get into legacy so they can have time to watch other games and get a feel for the format, decks, and interactions. In that sense, it is the alternative to Belcher. It's also the deck that some people just prefer because nothing is really good vs it (because none of the community respects it). So, you will see it. You will die to it. You will be bothered by it.

All that being said, you don't have to plan to play against it unless you're playing online. That meta is filled with burn and you should adjust according to their meta.

Now that I'm done with that, has anyone done anything new in testing? How're the current testings going?

Sidenote - My time with 0 Thoughtseize was during a period where burn was about 25% of the field and there were maybe 4 cards played that had a 4+cc. At that time, it was a virtually complete replacement with almost 0 downside.

[damionblackgear]

I'm posting again since someone might respond as it takes me about an hour to complete a post... don't ask.

I had been testing no Mox/SFM with 3x DRS. I didn't like that build and switched back to the Mox + SFM. I'm going to give 3 DRS a try alongside the Mystic and see how that goes.

On Strangleroot Geist. It's been doing better than the Ooze did but not better than a Goyf. I'm going to go to a 1/1 split between them as I still want diversity between my Zenith Targets. Additionally, the forced GG mana cost was causing issues as I was having to pay attention to too many things and I haven't had to do that to that extent for a long time.

I've cut the Stronghold again, but that may be a mistake. I haven't really had to many instances where it's been good to me though. I've still got the Maze and haven't tried that out as the stronghold. I may just be worried about fliers w/equipment.

I cut down to 1 Decay and wanted to get some testing in with the additional 2 in the board over the Needles but I didn't get a chance to make the switch before I started my last testing session (daily).

I'm also thinking about cutting down to 2 knights and adding a Finks as my additional Liliana answer (only 1 geist, remember). It still is able to deal with most of their deck and gives me two life. Perhaps Witness would be a better call but I'm not sure yet. I'm gonna give a couple of things some chances and see how they go.

[sdematt]

I haven't done enough gauntlet testing to get a real feel for any new cards I want to try yet (yes I've played in tournaments and won, but that's not gauntlet testing, that's possibly wins due to variance).

Seems like the meta is pretty stable at the moment. I think I'm going to bring this deck to SCG Seattle and maybe try to reclaim some glory. If not I won't be too butthurt.

-Matt

[Koplinchen]

I don't really understand what some of you guys are talking about. I can understand that you dont have Thoughtseize, but that doesent make it bad. It doesnt even make Duress good.

Thoughtseize is obviously the best discard spell. If you run certain version you will add 3-4 Cabal Therapies and that's it. If you run KotR then you go for Inquisition of Kozilek. Duress is the last choice - 1-2 in sideboard, but It's not very good.

Let's not talk about burn matchup and Thoughtseize anymore. Matt has it right - fetch basics, play shaman, goyf(s), keep W ready, jitte is gg - not necessary - and kill him! This should be enough. Burn players are usually quite bad.

[Claymore]

Played in some Legacy side events at GP Charlotte. Got embarrassed by a T0 Leyline of Sanctity against RIP Miracles when I kept a 1 lander with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Pithing Needle (on Top), Confidant, Goyf, GSZ (no arbor), and proceeded to draw 0 lands and got killed by Jace. Went 2-1-1 in that event, beating RUG Delver and BUG Delver - STP on Tombstalker ftw.

Similarly got embarrassed when I put my brand new Pithing Needles into my tutor board, then brought it in against Ad Nauseum for LED...yeah, that doesn't work.

[damionblackgear]

I don't really understand what some of you guys are talking about. I can understand that you dont have Thoughtseize, but that doesent make it bad. It doesnt even make Duress good.

I'll take blame for it going off topic. I wrote that there was a time when IoK was better than Thoughtseize (burn infested meta) and some people took that to be the bases for now. That was supposed to be a comment for another specific comment but I need to be more clear. The actual conversation was supposed to be about supplemental discard (in addition to Thoughtseize) and not replacement discard. Burn was the example that was used, which I ran with after avoiding figuring that people would run with whatever mention of burn, as an example, there was. That should clear up the random spurt of posts.

[sdematt]

And the train is now back on the tracks, folks.

I'm going to try some new tech I found, but I don't think it's anything special.

My list I used the other night was:

3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

3 Bitterblossom
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

22 Land (which seemed light, I'd definitely want 23 in this deck, so many 3 drops).


Vampire Hexmage was actually something. 2/1 First Strike is a big deal (this slot was Thalia until I realized Thalia is good AGAINST me) in creature combat, and a 3/1 after Sorin is even better. It also gets to muck Jace out of nowhere, make a Scavenging Ooze a 2/2 randomly, muck a Gemstone mine, etc. It's pretty decent just as utility and not even for Marit Lage. It also has the nice ability that people assume Marit Lage and gun for it.

The list is super fun, but definitely need some tweaking.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I had a similar creature base for my BW brew, but had 2-3 Mirran Crusader in the slot you played Hexmages. Being able to be pro-BG is nice in a meta full of BGx decks. He double strikes, which just gets dumb with equipment, and even without equipment, he's your heaviest hitter.

[Sughayyer]

I asked for the list because before I had that break on magic I ran a bw tokens list as well. It was similar to yours, and now I wonder - some of thesse cards would really be nuts in the rock.
I'll post the list I used, and we all could discut possibilities, what you all say?
Well, the list:

3 cabal therapy
3 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate (became o-ring when snt went rampant)

2 sensei's divining top
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull (only used it against merfolks and goblins)

3 zealous persecution

2 liliana otv
1 ajani goldmane (yeah)

3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
3 blossom
4 lingering souls

it was great against most decks of that meta (maverivk, esper, burn, ant, snt).

I realized that there's too much card advantage being generated, but I missed goyf in some matches (merfolk, combo, burn).

We could fit in goyf and shaman (as well as decay and other things).

[Kpicco]

Wouldn't the B/W Decks be better suited in the Deadguy Ale's forum? Considering they're pretty much the same lists I was running as Deadguy Ale before switching to Junk.

[Petree]

whats are you guys doing for the show n tell matchup? Yes hand disruption but with show n tell decks or omniscience or dream halls version or enter the infinite versions running around... what are your side or main board techs? I just feel like since they are boarding in leyline of sanctity now, hand disruption alonw wont do the work. I'm thinking angel of despairs or oblivion rings, if not ethersworn or tidehollow sculler. Just seems like such a hard deck for us to beat at the moment.

[jin]

whats are you guys doing for the show n tell matchup? Yes hand disruption but with show n tell decks or omniscience or dream halls version or enter the infinite versions running around... what are your side or main board techs? I just feel like since they are boarding in leyline of sanctity now, hand disruption alonw wont do the work. I'm thinking angel of despairs or oblivion rings, if not ethersworn or tidehollow sculler. Just seems like such a hard deck for us to beat at the moment.

Liliana of the Veil?

[Chatto]

Greetings to you all,

This is my first post in this topic. I would like some advise regarding the list I am planning to take to a tournament this week. First of all, due to budgetreasons I do not own any Thoughtseize's. I am planning to purchage them als soon as I am able. Second, I only have two Libraries atm, and have liked it so far.

I've always played with Pulse, but recently decided to change to Vindicate. I'm overall not so sure, apart from the landdestruction ability, which one I like best. What do you guys recon/ advice?

Now for my list:

Creatures (12)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (26)

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Land (22)

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Marsh Flat
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heat
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Engineered Plague
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
3 Mindbreak Trap

Thank you for your time in advance :)

Chatto

[Sughayyer]

Chatto, this list is similar to a few lists floating in this thread nowasays.
About vindicate role as land destruction: either run 4 or there are going to be very few occasions where vindicating a land will be correct (then again it's just me talking).
Since I started playing with jitte MD, I loved it. I also love sword of fire and ice - draws + shocks makes it good vs control and good vs aggro.

@the bw lists:
yeah this is straying too much. But my point is: since we are a deck with so many "must remove/counter" cards, why not fiddle with blossom as well? In times before decay, blossom made me laugh at jaces... :)

[Esper3k]

Against Show & Tell, I actually think we're in a pretty good spot especially for a non-blue deck.

If they Show & Tell, O-Ring is of course our best answer to drop. However, if they drop Emrakul/Griselbrand, us dropping a Knight is still very scary for them.

Against the Omniscience/Enter the Infinite versions, Gaddock Teeg mostly shuts the deck down. If you get him down before they cast Dream Halls, their only way to win now is pretty much Show & Tell -> Omniscience -> Intuition / Emrakul. Pretty specific hand.

Our hand disruption is still fine because Leyline is a trap. 1) They won't always open with it and 2) it entices people into keeping bad hands.

@Chatto: I usually prefer Maelstrom Pulse myself. BG is typically easier to cast in Junk and the hitting multiples effect is very relevant in Legacy these days with all the Spirit tokens flying around. Foil Apoc Vindicates are so pretty though!

[Koplinchen]

Greetings to you all,

This is my first post in this topic. I would like some advise regarding the list I am planning to take to a tournament this week. First of all, due to budgetreasons I do not own any Thoughtseize's. I am planning to purchage them als soon as I am able. Second, I only have two Libraries atm, and have liked it so far.

I've always played with Pulse, but recently decided to change to Vindicate. I'm overall not so sure, apart from the landdestruction ability, which one I like best. What do you guys recon/ advice?

Now for my list:

Creatures (12)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (26)

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Land (22)

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Marsh Flat
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heat
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Engineered Plague
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
3 Mindbreak Trap

Thank you for your time in advance :)

Chatto



Chatto, it looks pretty fine. I would add Scavenging Ooze, 4th zenith, mabye Jitte and drop Vindicates. I prefer Cabal Therapies - so 4 and 2/3 inquisition. I would like to see 4th Wasteland and some Lilianas in the main as well.

Do you really need Mindbreak Traps? Use you sideboard slots more wisely. I don't see Life from the Loam for example.

Good luck!

[Arsenal]

Really not been liking KotR lately. As such, I've found if I cut KotR, then I can cut GSZ as it loses value and isn't good enough (imo) maindeck without sufficient targets. Here's my Stoneforge list. As always, if you're running Stoneforge, you're running Equipment, and if you're running Equipment, you better be running Lingering Souls.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland

[sdematt]

I'm not so sure. KotR is still pretty good for me in certain matchups (while bad in others). I agree with your line of thought, though. Cutting GSZ means you lose the utility creatures, but if you're okay with that, then it's fine.

-Matt

[igri_is_a_bk]

I can't believe I still see lists without four Thoughtseize. It's wrong to play a single Inquisition before the fourth TS. Sneak Attack is fucking huge right now. It likely will be for a while. Man up, pay two life. You have Decay to cover the little shit later.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm not so sure. KotR is still pretty good for me in certain matchups (while bad in others). I agree with your line of thought, though. Cutting GSZ means you lose the utility creatures, but if you're okay with that, then it's fine.

-Matt

In my opinion, a 4/4 KotR is still a Wasteland/Karakas/Maze/Bog engine. Sure, the heydays of the 11/11 for 3 may be gone for now, but Knight still isn't bad to have. My issue with SFM is that it is incredible mana-dependent. Yes, Batterskull and Jitte will win you games, but they tie up our mana (which I would rather keep open for removal/discard/increase board presence) by activating SFM or equipping.

Toying around with a list very similar to Matt's, but with Lilly main and souls in the side. For the curious:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest

SB: 3 Lingering Souls
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

EDIT: @igri: lol and thank you.

[Chatto]

@ Sughayyer en Esper3k; I see what you guys mean. Going to replace Vindicate with Pulse.

@ Koplinchen; the last time there were a lot more combo-players in my meta. Hence MBT. Maybe I should cut them and take my chances with Thalia, Teeg and Duress. Not sure with what to replace them though...

Thanks for the feedback!

@ Igri; I know Seize is better and I would take the two life anytime, but it's a budget-thing right now :)

[Barbed Blightning]

@ Sughayyer en Esper3k; I see what you guys mean. Going to replace Vindicate with Pulse.

@ Koplinchen; the last time there were a lot more combo-players in my meta. Hence MBT. Maybe I should cut them and take my chances with Thalia, Teeg and Duress. Not sure with what to replace them though...

Thanks for the feedback!

@ Igri; I know Seize is better and I would take the two life anytime, but it's a budget-thing right now :)

Against combo, take out decays and stp (though it can hit a grisel). Thalia is a beating vs storm and teeg cuts off so many things (sneak, ad nauseum, storm spells and dread return for starters).

I feel like MBT is a trap (pun) like leyline is for combo: we'll be fine against storm... until they cast silence. It's also useless in other MUs and uncastable. Discard is versatile, potent and castable.

[Arsenal]

I'm not so sure. KotR is still pretty good for me in certain matchups (while bad in others). I agree with your line of thought, though. Cutting GSZ means you lose the utility creatures, but if you're okay with that, then it's fine.

-Matt

I see two clear lines for this deck; the GSZ + KotR + ultility creature route, and the SFM + Equipment + Lingering Souls route. The rest of the cards are the same (StP, Abrupt Decay, Bob, Liliana, Sylvan Library, etc). From this, what can we see? The meta right now is about the grindy, midrange, attrition battles where the stronger topdeck will often turn the tide. Is either build (GSZ vs. SFM) superior to the other in an attrition battle? Does GSZ have the edge because it shuffles back in, creating an "endless" stream of threats if drawn? What about Lingering Souls with and without Equipment? There's no better grindy card right now than Souls, and they get even better when Equipment is involved.