[Deck] The Rock

[Rainbow Maker]

I've been reading up on all the post-Survival decks too. Personally, I hope the deck does well, as I feel that banning Survival was the wrong move.

I would like to just say this is most definitely wrong. Mystical tutor was banned for being the best tutor. This year survival was banned for being the best tutor AND the best strategy. See there wasn't a deck based around teachings. Survival was and still is too powerful. You can't really hate our it. Since they can just pay 1 green mana and obtain the best creature in that situation. Even without VV would still be broken. you have alt win cons iona and retainer and ooze. they only roughly take up 2 slots per combo. Ooze is good by itself so... i'm not counting it. it's a broken concept. to pay 1 mana and get any answer.

[ZeinVoncy]

I would like to just say this is most definitely wrong. Mystical tutor was banned for being the best tutor. This year survival was banned for being the best tutor AND the best strategy. See there wasn't a deck based around teachings. Survival was and still is too powerful. You can't really hate our it. Since they can just pay 1 green mana and obtain the best creature in that situation. Even without VV would still be broken. you have alt win cons iona and retainer and ooze. they only roughly take up 2 slots per combo. Ooze is good by itself so... i'm not counting it. it's a broken concept. to pay 1 mana and get any answer.

Lets not hit up the being "right or wrong" feelings behind survival banning. There are enough rant threads I'm sure, no need to waste our space.

I'd rather see an arguement about using Glissa w/ the Stoneforger package after more spoilers are released.

I'm hearing a lot about Selkies, I feel they are weaksauce, but after so much raving, I feel like I have to at least give them a shot. Would you say they are S/B or M/D cards? 2 copies?

[Dzra]

Selkies are definitely SB unless your meta is just balls flooded with Blue. I board them in against every non-combo Blue deck.

Glissa to me just doesn't seem that great. She's a legendary, so we can't really build around her; and as it stands, we don't have many targets for her. She also seems kind of clunky for being so restrictive. For a colorless and two green, I could run Eternal Witness since she's always good by herself and if I want tricks I can easily fetch a single Stronghold with KotR... but since Stronghold/Witness is too slow/clunky, I can't see Glissa doing much.

Stoneforge is good, don't get me wrong. This just isn't the deck for it. I recently started testing a GW Maverick type deck with Vials and Stoneforge that's pretty good. In this deck though, Deed is one of our most powerful answers and Stoneforge only encourages you to over-extend into your own Deed.

[Rainbow Maker]

Selkies are definitely SB unless your meta is just balls flooded with Blue. I board them in against every non-combo Blue deck.

Glissa to me just doesn't seem that great. She's a legendary, so we can't really build around her; and as it stands, we don't have many targets for her. She also seems kind of clunky for being so restrictive. For a colorless and two green, I could run Eternal Witness since she's always good by herself and if I want tricks I can easily fetch a single Stronghold with KotR... but since Stronghold/Witness is too slow/clunky, I can't see Glissa doing much.

Stoneforge is good, don't get me wrong. This just isn't the deck for it. I recently started testing a GW Maverick type deck with Vials and Stoneforge that's pretty good. In this deck though, Deed is one of our most powerful answers and Stoneforge only encourages you to over-extend into your own Deed.

i'm running mystic again is this reason. I don't use diamond and therefore it's rather sketchy for me to cast hymns. So i haven't tried it yet but i will be running 7 1 cmc discard effects. The way i'll try to net CA is mystics, bobs and swords.

I think selkie is... Not maindeck material unless you have effects that complement it greatly such as exalted triggers. But it is a fairly ok card. It is unblockable against most decks in the format. But it is rather fragile. You could try it in the place of witness if you like it. The reason why glissa won't see play is because she isn't really good in the deck. She's very mana intensive. What do you get for casting her? A creatures with a few cool abilities deathtouch and firststrike. The reason why i don't like it is because it doesn't net you anything to begin with.

[SpikeyMikey]

Lets not hit up the being "right or wrong" feelings behind survival banning. There are enough rant threads I'm sure, no need to waste our space.

I'd rather see an arguement about using Glissa w/ the Stoneforger package after more spoilers are released.

I'm hearing a lot about Selkies, I feel they are weaksauce, but after so much raving, I feel like I have to at least give them a shot. Would you say they are S/B or M/D cards? 2 copies?

I run 2 Selkies, 1 Choke and 1 Enlightened Tutor in my board. The thing with Choke is that it only augments one facet of our stategy (mana-denial), it's not great in multiples and most decks run enough basics that it's just an irritant. Selkie just acts as extra Bobs, allowing you to match control 1-for-1 through their hand sifting and eventually overwhelm them. I think it's like Plague vs. Grounds for tribal. Plague has been the defacto answer for so long that people didn't even think about whether or not it was still effective. In the same vein, control has changed. Daze has replaced Counterspell as the backup to Force of Will and blue win-cons are less mana intensive and harder to remove with Jace TMS. I still have Choke in the board because it lets me slow down Fish, but against control, Selkie is usually better. I'd rather have extra answers since I'm not winning in the first couple of turns when they're weakest anyway.

Has anyone done testing wiith a singleton LftL and if so, how was it. I had a couple games earlier today where I had to drop Maze early and it got Wasted and I wanted it badly late game. I was thinking of trading out a Wasteland straight up for Loam.

[sdematt]

I jut want to say one *tiny* thing about Survival, just before we move on entirely, just to clear it up.

I've been playing Survival for the better part of ten years, and there's nothing wrong with it. The only card that took all the bad parts of Survival and did away with them was Vengevine. Vengevine gave these decks incredible quick and recurrable kill conditions. A deck with Iona Retainers/Emrakul is good, but would always be tier 1.5, as would a strictly Ooze combo Survival deck. I'm not saying Survival isn't good, believe me, I've been playing it for a while, but VV made it explosive.

That being said, banning Vengevine would admit R and D made a mistake. I wish they'd have given more time for the Legacy scene to adapt (I had a good matchup against it, as did Stax, Landstill, and a few other "small portion of the archetype pie" decks). I think more time was needed, but now they've just proven if it's good, ban it immediately without time for adaptation.

Back to Rock...

@ Loam

I played one Loam a few months back and it wasn't bad, but it's no like I was continually dredging with it. I think if you're running Mox Diamond, it'd be good in case you pitch a specialty land you really want, but then it also un-pumps Knight. Kind of a trade-off there.

@ Selkie

Haven't given it a try, but I might :P

-Matt

[Dzra]

Loam is a powerful card, but I feel like a deck really needs to be able to handle it. I don't play Loam is because it has a narrow use and I can't tutor it. In this deck, I would only want to see it a small percentage of the time, so I can't run 4, however, when I do want to see it, I have no way to find it.

I imagine Loam being good in a slower control version backed up by Stronghold, Eternal Witness, etc. Hell, maybe even Vengevines and Bloodghasts... but that's another deck. :P Point is, it's handy sometimes but I can win games without Maze and I have more consistent ways to Wastelock.

edit: And yeah, since everyone is saying something about Survival... lol, I really don't like the Survival banning, but actually the best argument for it that I heard wasn't that Survival was massively broken now or that Survival is more broken than Vengevine, but that as new sets come out, Survival gets more and more degenerate. Perhaps they banned the wrong card, perhaps the meta just needed to adjust, but it was almost inevitable that eventually Survival was going to be broken. They could ban Vengevine or Phyrexian Devourer now, but two sets from now they'd have to ban something else, etc, etc.

[SpikeyMikey]

edit: And yeah, since everyone is saying something about Survival... lol, I really don't like the Survival banning, but actually the best argument for it that I heard wasn't that Survival was massively broken now or that Survival is more broken than Vengevine, but that as new sets come out, Survival gets more and more degenerate. Perhaps they banned the wrong card, perhaps the meta just needed to adjust, but it was almost inevitable that eventually Survival was going to be broken. They could ban Vengevine or Phyrexian Devourer now, but two sets from now they'd have to ban something else, etc, etc.

The same argument was used 5 years ago. Survival lets you tutor out the best creatures in any situation, so as more creatures are printed, Survival will just get better and better. Then people realized that Goblins ass-raped Survival decks because Survival is SLOW. The nature of the card is that it's slow. It comes down turn 2, and not considering VV antics, turn 3 is tutoring so it doesn't actually DO anything until turn 4. The criteria for a card being usable by Survival are incredibly narrow, as I've pointed out in a couple of the Survival threads.

To recall an old adage from T1, oh, about 10 years ago: "Keeper is the best deck. As new sets are printed, Keeper will get better against the field because it will be able to utilize the best cards from all 5 colors, meaning that Keeper gets better and better as the format gets deeper."

When's the last time you saw a 5 color control deck in T1? Fuzzy logic is fuzzy. You can't just take one trite phrase and assume that it's true because it sounds reasonable.

[sdematt]

Here's to Vengevine decks raping the format so VV gets banned and Survival gets unbanned. Huzzah!

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

To recall an old adage from T1, oh, about 10 years ago: "Keeper is the best deck. As new sets are printed, Keeper will get better against the field because it will be able to utilize the best cards from all 5 colors, meaning that Keeper gets better and better as the format gets deeper."

When's the last time you saw a 5 color control deck in T1? Fuzzy logic is fuzzy. You can't just take one trite phrase and assume that it's true because it sounds reasonable.

Haha, I miss playing Keeper. :( That was my first tournament level decktype to played with. I remember this time, and though I'm a knight who says nay, I cannot. LoL

[zalachan]

Yeah, one of my wishes for '11 is Angry Ficus getting banned. I just hate the concept of the card, also i hate my binder full of Survival utility critters i accumulated over the years, thinking "Survival is safe bet, it's kinda slow".

On topic: I played the standard list with 2 Elspeth in SB but no tribal hate, cause i didn't get Dueling Grounds and didn't want to play Paths...
ok, onto the fiasco the games were:

R1: Jacestill
I drew some subpar hands that didn't hit discard and got one Top but was countered. He drew multiple Brainstorms/Standstills and had Deed/Jace out until 5th turn. Jace won. I boarded in some Duresses and Extirpate i think Elspeth too.
Next game i Duress 2nd or 3rd turn and he BS in response, he revealed counters/lands and one more BS. I also had Extirpate in hand but no 2nd black source, so i have to wait 1 turn. I draw Duress again. So now he had BS in GY and i thought i should shuffle his JTMS away that i assumed he had put on the top. The mistake was he didn't put it 2 cards deep but only 1, so he had it in his hand and i should Duress him instead and then Extirpate. I should have known better.. anyways, the guy eventually won the tournament and beat TPS in the finals.
0-1

R2: Eva Green
This guy had more removal than i had critters. I think he was playing something like 4 Swords 4 Smother 3 Gatekeeper 2 Demise main and boarded in more. My threats didn't stick. But yeah, i had SDT out and was hanging on 2 life for a while until he landed something.
Should've boarded out Mox Diamonds, which stank in my hand whole 1st game, but i boarded in 2 Elspeth and i thought extra mana stability would help. I got blown out again, he Wasted me and Hymned and he hit land/Elspeth and then Extirpated Elspeth, only to see i have only 1 more lands and 2 moxen. One demon later and no lands=scoop.
0-2

R3: Rb Goblins
I started with Catacombs for Swamp (wrong) and Mox Diamond for Goyf. Then i didn't draw lands for 6 turns and i died.
Game 2 i drew and played 4 Goyfs in a row (i know, i win, right?) but was screwed on white mana again and had hand of Deed, 2 Knoght, Vindicate. He got some nice Ringleaders into Ringleaders from the top of the library and several Weirdings later it was kinda bad and when i drew Deed i had to clean leathal next turn on the board (several Lackeys/Instigators). I lost 2 moxen in the process and with 1 land on the field i just knew it was over etc. Didn't see STP/Top at all.
0-3

Next round i dropped and played some edh for fun and i won then.
On Mox Diamond- i know that deck is subpar without acceleration, but if you don't hit SDT or Confidant, the card disadvantage is so huge you just loose (it helps if u are unlucky/bad, i know i am). And with Spell Snares/Pierces running rampant, sometimes it's just hard to land them..

[SpikeyMikey]

Here's to Vengevine decks raping the format so VV gets banned and Survival gets unbanned. Huzzah!

-Matt

Even if they ban VV in March, they won't unban Survival. It'll be years before it's considered to come off the list. Taking it off right away would be admitting a mistake, and they don't do that.

[Scopeye]

Hi. I first started this deck as Eva Green but I found it lacking mainly in the creature department, after altering many times I came up with 2 lists I run these days.

Doran Eva:
Creatures 17
4 Goyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Doran
2 Tombstalker

Spells 20
4 Duress
4 StP
4 Maelstrom
1 Jitte
3 Mox Diamond

Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Marshflats
4 Cerdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Doran-Confident Eva
Creatures 13
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
3 doran
2 Tombstalker

Spells 24
4 StP
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mirri's Guile

Lands 23
Same as above

Side board for both deck changes alot to mention but general sideboard cards are
-Extirpate
-Leyline
-Dueling Grounds
-Engineered Plague
-Chalice of the Void
-Pernecious Deed
-EE
-Ethersworn Cannosist
-Sadistic Sacrament
-Path to Exile

Some Cards to mention:
Mirri's Guile: I haven't seen anyone mention this. This card is plain awesome. In earlier turns it is just better than SDT imo, it lets you manipulate library and you don't miss your curve while doing so. It is worse when the game drags too long because you can not do multiple manipulations but it is still good. Multiples are also good if you have Confidant in play.

Doran: I am never sorry to see it, It makes an immidiate impact at every stage of the game. It is stronger early game than KoTR and when it is in play Goyfs trade nicely with each other which is better for me. Also it doesn't rely on graveyard which makes it a perfect combination with Tombstalker. His ability also shouldn't be overlooked since it slows some decks nicely

Tombstalker: I love this card, flying makes all the difference in the world. I can not remember the times where both board positions are equal and I fly over to win. It is especially not fair with duelling grounds in play. This card is the reason I don't run KoTR, both cards end the game but Stalker do it more safely. I might even try 3 of these

Vampire Nighthawk: I am torn about this one. On one hand it provides you with such great utility because it has everyability you could ever wish for. It is great against aggro decks, 3 toughness is actually pretty nice and even if you trade you gain life which gives you more time. It is also one of the best equipment carriers I have ever seen. On the other hand it is just not big enough, if you don't have an equipment it takes ages to finish the game so it is only good as a utiliy creature and I don't know if we actually need them.

Maelstrom: I prefer to blow up multiple problematic cards over lands. Only downside is when you have a goyf in play thats it.

Jitte: It just randomly wins games that you cannot win so I don't see myself cutting these anytime soon.

[sdematt]

That's one of my main points about why the won't change the B/R list many times: admitting failure.

Scopeye, I'll comment on your list when I get back from work.

-Matt

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I've tried guile. It does what you want it to do initially... then it blows, then gets worse as you draw more. Top is far superior because of all the top tricks that you can do with it. It is more mana intensive, but not a whole lot, and this is where play skill comes into effect. There have been plenty of games where i've fetched with a fetchland or using KotR 5+ times in a single turn looking for that 1 card that I need, then using top to draw it off the top. Guile cannot compare to that. Tombstalker is the bomb, I really want to include him, but there is no way he can exist in the same deck as Dark Confidant. As sad as it is to say, bob wins that battle. Because you're playing wastelands... you should always play vindicate over pulse. There are plenty of games where you can waste their land then vindicate the basic and just ride that to victory.


On a different note, if I were to play a list that runs life from the loam it would be this. It's close to what I played at the GP, but a more updated version. It has a really sick late game. The card draw engine that loam can provide is sick. Sometimes Volrath's Stronghold + Quasali happens to be played against enchantress decks. I tried playing a treetop village in this deck as another creature that I can pull out with KoTR, and tuns out it is really terrible.


Creatures [14]
2 Quasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells [22]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Lands [24]
4 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

[Dzra]

What Magicsk8ngenius said. ;p And also, another less obvious reason to run Top over Guile is that it let's you safely fetch a basic Swamp instead of having to go get a Bayou.

That Loam list looks really nice. The only thing I don't much care for is the land base... I know Black is important, but Horizon Canopy seems so much better than Barren Moor. Maybe run more fetches to color fix instead of those janky cipt lands (other than Bog of course). Have you tried out Eternal Witness in that list? Perhaps you could move Pridemages to the SB.

@ zalachan, what is your mana base? It seems like you were getting mana screwed the whole time. And also, I didn't think Eva Green ran White?


I started with Catacombs for Swamp (wrong)

Confused about that too.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

@Drza: the pridemage is probably the easiest thing to switch out for something else, it's partially a metagame choice. I tried E.witness for a while and it's just a little slow and this deck already is a bit slow. I assume you've never played aggro loam before because Horizon Canopy can in no way compete for the barren moor slot. The manabase could change a bit and become a bit more green heavy and run tranquil thickets instead of barren moor. I used moors because originally it was heavier black running hymn to tourach, but that isn't needed. The cipt lands are Barren Moor and Secluded Steppe and in the first couple turns you cycle these EOT on opponents turn, digging for what you need and growing KoTR. Then loam replenishes your hand with them so throughout any turns that you have extra mana floating around you're using these lands to soak it up and gain card advantage. Sometimes if you get to a later game state you basically pay 5 mana to draw 3 (2 for loam and 1 for each cycle).


I didn't realize it till now, but I'd really put a maze of ith in there somewhere. The list is pretty tight so maybe in place of the horizon canopy or bojuka bog.

Also I used to play a non-Dark Confidant version because the meta was so zoo heavy. In that version I would run 3 kitchen finks and 1 worm harvest in place of bob. Worm harvest can really be disgusting in this version of the deck. I recall a game where the counterbalance player thought he had the game when he had top + cb and a 2cmc and 3cmc floating. I would dredge then play loam every turn to be countered and he looked at me puzzled until the worm harvest got dredged. It was not a good day to be a counterbalance player.

[AggroSteve]

i could see 1x life from the loam and 1x worms harvest being good in the sideboard for a originally non-loam list, if the meta is controlheavy

i allways loved this card combination^^

[Rainbow Maker]

I second the motion of worm harvest. it's stupid good. Maybe a singleton Raven's crime. i would thinking about running a manland over the canopy.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm going to pull Pridemage and run a Jitte and an E. Tutor and see how that works out for me. With Survival gone, I'd already cut a Pridemage for the 4th KotR and 2 Pridemages was just meh. CB isn't really a scary MU anyway and I need some extra edge against aggro. With Tutor main, I can fetch Deed or Jitte, depending on gamestate and I can still use it to find Top against control. I also added 3 Spectral Lynxes to the board, replacing the E. Tutor that was in there, the Extirpate (the 3 main is enough I think) and 1 Dueling Grounds. Will start testing with it tonight. When Mirran Crusader becomes legal, may try that over Lynx although regeneration is probably too key to give up. Helps against cycled Gempalms and burn out of Zoo. Hopefully I can bring the aggro matchups to even or slightly favored. Not sure about going to 1 DG though. May have to find something else to cut instead.

[AggroSteve]

i swapped my canopy for a temple garden/savannah, i missed canopy a bit but it was just that i was so much used to it, but with savannah/temple garden i feel way more comfortable

to life from the loam + ravens crime / worms harvest: i would only suggest it as a sideboard-tech against control, i tried using loam main as a 1-off, as well as ravens crime, but it felt awefull, allmost terribly out of place, but that may be due to playstyle

[Dzra]

The cipt lands are Barren Moor and Secluded Steppe and in the first couple turns you cycle these EOT on opponents turn, digging for what you need and growing KoTR. Then loam replenishes your hand with them so throughout any turns that you have extra mana floating around you're using these lands to soak it up and gain card advantage. Sometimes if you get to a later game state you basically pay 5 mana to draw 3 (2 for loam and 1 for each cycle).

Do you hit the Mox Diamonds enough to keep you moving in the early game? 6 cipt lands just seems like it'd slow you to a crawl sometimes.

[Hanni]

I'm not sure how many people, if any, remember a deck I built called B/w/g Deadguy Rock. I designed it shortly after Tarmogoyf saw print, and it was a house back then. It put multiple players in Germany into Top 8's of big events, etc who cares. Anyway, I saw the old file on my MWS and decided to update it with the current card pool, and this is what I came up with:

B/w/g Deadguy Rock 2011

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [R] Scrubland
3 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Savannah
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [M10] Doom Blade

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

It plays very similar to the way it used to play, but it's obviously much better now. It still utilizes the Deadguy Ale gameplan of hitting the opponent with discard and blowing up their lands early game to disrupt them and generate tempo, and then drop a big fat beater to capitalize on the opportunity that the disruption and tempo created. The biggest difference now is Knight of the Reliquary. I'm sure I don't have to preach to you guys about how good the guy is, but he's especially nasty in my list because he's able to further strengthen the LD gameplan by tutoring up Wasteland's.

Given the current formats focus on aggro and speed, I decided to cut Pernicious Deed's out of the maindeck for Doom Blade's. I had considered Ghastly Demise, but Demise is bad at stopping Wild Nacatl's in the early game, isn't guarunteed to answer opposing Goyf's/KoTR's in the midgame, and has bad synergy with Tombstalker. I rarely run into black aggro anymore, so it's been a great card for me. However, I'm still debating if I should maybe run a split of Blade/Deed MD since Deed is great at blowing up Vials.

I had also considered Death Mark, but its inability to answer Goblins and Merfolk makes it a bad choice, IMO. Even against Zoo, it still doesn't answer Kird Apes or Grim Lavamancer's.

12 spot removal spells gives the deck plenty of ammo against aggro decks, I still have Deed's in the board, and I also have a small anti-aggro land toolbox too.

What do you guys think? Or has this approach already been discussed lately?

[Dzra]

I think it's a pretty well constructed deck. The only thing is that you're really missing CA. No Bobs and no Top means that once you run out of gas, things are going to get rough. You have a ton of hand/land disruption but I'm not certain that Sinkhole gives you more tempo than Mox Diamond or that Doom Blade gives you more answers than Top.

[Rainbow Maker]

@hanni. I don't like sinkhole. What's good about vindicate is that it can press ld if you get the hand to do that. but it can also kill pretty much anything and everthing.

I think with so many cipt you should add more lands

[ZeinVoncy]

I think with so many cipt you should add more lands

Other then Bojuka Bog, I do not see any cipt cards . . .

[Hanni]

I think it's a pretty well constructed deck. The only thing is that you're really missing CA. No Bobs and no Top means that once you run out of gas, things are going to get rough. You have a ton of hand/land disruption but I'm not certain that Sinkhole gives you more tempo than Mox Diamond or that Doom Blade gives you more answers than Top.


Thanks. Well, the deck does have card advantage, it's just not direct card draw like what Dark Confidant offers. Both Hymn to Tourach and Gerrard's Verdict create card advantage. The deck can also gain massive amounts of card advantage virtually through the use of land destruction. Top creates card quality, not card advantage, and this deck is far too mana hungry throughout the early and midgame to get it going. I tried using Top before and it didn't work well.

Sinkhole not only generates tempo by putting me ahead more land drops than my opponent, it also provides virtual card advantage via color screw (or by keeping the opponent off of the total # of lands it needs to function properly). Doom Blade is just there to give the deck a critical mass of removal spells, and I keep going back and forth with it and Pernicious Deed.

Speaking of Pernicious Deed, it is also a form of card advantage.


@hanni. I don't like sinkhole. What's good about vindicate is that it can press ld if you get the hand to do that. but it can also kill pretty much anything and everthing.

I think with so many cipt you should add more lands

Vindicate is good because it is extremely versatile, no doubt. Sinkhole helps to strengthen the LD plan though, and this deck wins by landscrewing opponent's very frequently. I'd wager at least 30% of my wins come from the land destruction plan alone. So many decks these days are playing jank manabases, either because they run 4c, or just not enough lands. Sinkhole has been great for me, at any rate.

---

Back to the Pernicious Deed topic though, I've boarded in 3 Pernicious Deed and 1 Tabernacle for 4 Doom Blades in my last 4 matches. I'm considering going back to MD Pernicious Deeds like I used to back in the day. They might be slow, but they keep wrecking people. Hmm...

I'll try a 2/2 split of Blade/Deed for now, and let further testing dictate what happens from there.

[Dzra]

My biggest complaint would be it's slower than Eva and doesn't have as good a late game as other Rock builds.

I'd try dropping a land (maybe Volrath's stronghold since it's slow) and the 4 Doomblades for 3 Mox Diamonds and 2 Deeds. The Diamonds should make you a lot more aggressive with 6 Hymn/Verdict, 4 Sinkholes, and a lot of punishment @ 3cmc with KotR and Vindicate. Maybe try fitting in a 3rd Tombstalker too.

Different topic... but it might be interesting to try a build with 4 Deeds, Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness, and powerful planeswalkers like Elspeth to try to take advantage of the fact that Deed gets rid of everything but planeswalkers. Obviously you'd sacrifice a lot of the early game, but re-occurring Deed with Elspeth on the field must be game for just about every deck.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I like the way you think Dzra! In fact I tried out a list that had some of these synergies that I could certainly post in this thread because it certainly is a rock list.

Titan Rock
creatures [15]
3 Sun Titan
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness

spells [29]
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sword to Plowshare
2 Path to exile
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Vindicate

land [26]
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra Factory
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

The deck was a lot of fun, but the main problem is that is was too slow. Let me know if you have any good innovative ideas for trying to even make this deck a possibility.


On a different note, I really like the deadguy rock list. I always want to play a deck that can use sinkhole but it always is just too slow or irrelevant. The one thing that I don't like about the list is no dark confidant. In playing a heavy LD deck, you really need to refresh your hand with more LD spells. Also if I'm playing sinkhole in a deck, there better be at least 3, probably 4 mox diamonds in that list. Turn 1 sinkhole is some of the best tempo available. It's like turn one stifle your fetch. I can really get behind the doom blades, they are absolutely fine for this deck but you're right, you're probably better off with a 2/2 split between blade and deed.

That's my 2 cents for today...

[ZeinVoncy]

Finally got the cards I wanted and this is my list that I'll be running until something better comes along, though my S/B will be changing often I'm sure.

Creatures: 13
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Desolation Angel

Planeswalkers: 1
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sorcery: 13
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Instant: 5
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate

Enchantment: 1
1x Pernicious Deed

Artifact: 6
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Diamond

Lands:21
4x Wasteland
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest

S/B: 15
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Dueling Grounds

Considering dropping the Extirpate and Diabolic Edict for 3x Smother if there is a lot of aggro in my area or not. Will not be sure until the the SotF ban kicks in, but it aggro rises, I see Smother being a great S/B. I'm even considering looking to make space in my S/B for 1-2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence. She hoses a lot of things, but important stuff like AEther Vial and Goblin Lackey still prove to be trouble.
If worse comes to worse, I might put 2x Umezawa's Jitte back in, but is highly doubtful as I ran them before and I was not overly impressed.

@ Dzra
The only issue I see with creating a deck like that would the fact that seems to be a mid-range to control type of deck, wouldn't we want to see a faster deck to at least keep others slowed down until you can take full advantage of the board position? In that case, your previous Rock deck would be doing the same thing, and would most likely be more consistant. Not to mention not vulnerable to GY hate.

@Magicsk8ngenius
Deadguy Rock does sound interesting at the very least, I like your Titan Rock better then the Deadguy Rock posted by Hanni. The Sun Titan seems like he could be REALLY broken, once/if you got him into play. Maybe there's a future for him, and Glissa and an artifact supported battlefield.
Just my .02

[Dzra]

Yeah, my normal list is much more consistent, I'm just thinking out loud since there's not a lot I feel I can do to improve on my regular list. ;p I'm still not sold on Desolation Angel though. I think I'd rather that be a 4th Vindicate.

As for Titan Rock... Lotus Cobra maybe? If you're packing 6-10 fetches and have 5-6 cmc targets to ramp into, Cobra can be really sick. Sakura Tribe Elder just doesn't do it for me and I don't much like Haunting Echoes. Echoes seems too little too late. Maybe try adding some more targets for Sun Titan? Executioner's Capsule, Powder Keg, and Ratchet Bomb come to mind.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I feel that Sakura is just still too slow. I don't think that Lotus Cobra is the answer though because it gets wiped out by deed. I don't know if there really is any good answer here. I like mox diamond a little better but it still gets killed by deed. As sad as it is to say, maybe some sort of rampant growth effect would work. Haunting echoes is more for the control matchup. It ruins their day and turns the match into a walk in the park if resolved. It does that to pretty much anything but aggro decks. I could see getting rid of it. It would be nice to have a few other cards to bring back with Titan, but at the same time we don't want to make the deck Titan dependent. I'm thinking maybe instead of the 2 haunting echoes you could try 2x Unearth. That sounds like fun to me. If needed you can unearth your Sakura for a little more mana acceleration.

[Rainbow Maker]

@zein i was talking about magic's list with the cipt lands. I guess I didn't say that.

About the the person that mentioned a really slow loam oriented list with walkers and witnesses that is a rather different archetype. IT's sometimes called trisomy 21. IT usually uses 2-4 deeds, garruk, smallpox, innocent blood, worm harvest, loam, cycles, 0-4 witness, 1 gigapede, diamonds etc.

Whoever posted the list with
4 doomblades
4 swords
4 hymn
2-4 verdicts
4 sinkhole
with 10 creatures i think
4 goyf
4 knight
2 stalker

Discard is CA until a point. After that point it becomes useless. That's the duality of it. When it's good it's some of the best disruption. But when it's bad is a waste of a card. Also you have no way to capitalize off of cheap removal. for example most rock builds can do versatile things on the first three turn due the lower mana curve. An example
t1 disruption
t2 threat/disruption
t3 removal/disruption/threat
but with 10 creatures it is more or less
t1 disruption/removal
t2 disruption/removal
with 10 threats, i think you will have some long games. I think you should plan sometimes to be reactive. But with 10 threats you are more than likely going to have to play control against most every deck. The problem is when you go up with something that has better control elements and a better long game than you. i.e. anything with blue you will be in trouble not just with your dead cards, but also lack of possible CA and low threat density. sinkhole is meh. You have vials, goyfs, zoo and some people still play daze

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Alright so I couldn't sleep cuz I kept thinking about this list. (I'm a magic nerd I know) Here's a better version:

Titan Rock
creatures [16]
3 Sun Titan
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Quasali Pridemage

spells [19]
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Unearth


land [24]
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

The more I think about and revise this list the more I make myself believe that this deck is viable. Unearthing Sakura may seem sub optimal, but you're getting an extra land for 1 mana and it is ramping you into your Titan and quickening deed. Also not to mention that you can now do the infinite blocking loop with witness and unearth. I'm not sure what I was thinking on the last list, it's because I was at work and was going back and forth on typing it out. It's also funny that none of you noticed that it had swords to plowshares written twice in the list and also the list total added up to 70 cards and not 60. I guess nobody was really paying that close attention to my shenanigans.

also @Drza: You don't really need to hit diamond enough for the cycling lands to be good. You never really play them, just cycle them. Example: turn 1 play a fetch, pull a land, drop mox diamond, discard barren moor, play life from the loam get back barren moor and fetchland. Turn 2 depends on your hand. It can go turn 2 dredge loam drop a hymn/bob/quasali/tarm any 2 drop and then wasteland or just cycle the cycling land if you have no wasteland/targets or just drop knight which will be probably more than 2 cuz of the dredge and next turn he's gonna get at least + from fetching and possibly a lot more from cycling depending upon what the game state calls for.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think you are looking at Hanni's list wrong. From the perspective of contemporary Rock, Sinkhole is meh. But his deck isn't looking to play like Rock currently does. I've been playing T2 lately, with mono-B Vat control. Vat is ridiculous, by the way and I expect it to dominate Extended and creep into Legacy, although that's neither here nor there. But often, with that deck, the correct play is to ignore the threat they just cast and continue attacking their hand, waiting to play Gatekeeper of Malakir or Doom Blade several turns later and absorbing some beats. I could drop Gatekeeper on turn 3 and kill their Ezuri or Joraga Warcaller or Sea Gate Oracle. But even if Oracle is holding back my Vampire Hexmage, I want to Mind Rot them or drop Liliana's Specter. I'll deal with the Oracle when I'm sure they're sufficiently disrupted and can't fight back. Otherwise, being reactive, I'm putting myself in a position to lose.

Hanni's list is an aggressive Rock list, not in the sense that it runs Doran and other somewhat subpar beaters instead of control cards, but in the sense that it is always attacking in the early game. Rather than attacking life, it's attacking resources.

[Hanni]

Hanni's list is an aggressive Rock list, not in the sense that it runs Doran and other somewhat subpar beaters instead of control cards, but in the sense that it is always attacking in the early game. Rather than attacking life, it's attacking resources.

That's pretty much spot on. The Deadguy shell has always been about resource denial.

I'm not really digging the idea of Mox Diamond. I haven't tested with it yet, so I may be wrong, but I really don't find myself wishing I could speed up my early game at the cost of card disadvantage. There's only two matchups where I would want Mox Diamond: Zoo and Combo.

Against Zoo, simply boarding into more creature removal is the best way to beat that matchup. If they cannot get any damage through with their creatures early, they won't have you in burn range later. Then you drop your own big fat beats, for which they only have 4 Path to Exiles for, and then smash them midgame with better quality beaters. A large density of removal, combined with this decks big midrange aggro, makes Zoo a pretty good matchup postboard.

Against Zoo, Sinkhole is admittedly pretty bad. They drop guys too quickly, and this deck has to kill their creatures before it can attack their manabase. By the time the early creature rush is dealt with, their manabase is usually in a strong enough position that attacking with LD is no longer worth it. Don't get me wrong, the LD plan is still fantastic against them when they keep shaky hands with 1-2 land and they don't draw any more, but typically the LD plan is much worse than the 'blow up every creature' plan.

So for Zoo:

-4 Sinkhole
+4 Creature removal

Against combo, it really depends on the type of combo deck. Storm, Sneak&Show, and Spiral Tide are just a few of the different combo decks I come across, and some cards that are good in one of those matchups can be horrible in another. For the most part, Sinkhole is decent/pretty good against all 3, and Unmask is amazing out of the sideboard. Swords to Plowshares is usually dead in all of these matchups. Extirpate can be decent depending on matchup (can work well against High Tide sometimes), so additional dead removal can become Extirpate if needed.

So for Combo:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Unmask

Anyways, in the additional games I've playtested since I went with the 2/2 split of Doom Blade and Deed, I've been finding Deed much more valuable. I'm easily able to ramp into the mana to cast Deed, because the land destruction plan slows the game down alot, and Deed destroying multiple of the opponent's resources just wins games. I'll list my changes to the deck later after my testing with the deck.

I'm also wondering if I should just create a new thread for my decklist, since it plays alot more like Deadguy Ale than it does The Rock. I mean, it's a hybrid between the two (Deadguy and Rock), so it's kinda like the bastard child in either thread... What do you guys think?

(I know I used to have a thread for B/w/g Deadguy Rock back in 2008, but I can't seem to find it anywhere)

[Rainbow Maker]

As you said it plays like Deadguy ale. The reason why deadguy ale isn't one of the best decks is because of all their grizzly bear creatures. It's consistent, strong, lots of ca. However it's slow due to small creatures. i think i would use b/b/w with loam and diamond. You can run mana denial just as much smallpox and such. you gain ca from cycle lands. I just think it has a better late game because of CA, library manipulation and just recurring threats.

Doesn't every deck that has a few creatures attack some resource. We can go land destruction, hand disruption and/or beatdown. Also it won't take long for people to realize springtide is pretty gosh darn bad. O i didnt see you added the deeds. I'm all for that it's more CA and is good against control, for the most part.

Well when you think about it deadguy ale and the rock play very similar. Most lists nowadays don't even run sinkhole like pikula did way back when. it has the same shell or removal/ disruption. Just different creatures.

[SpikeyMikey]

I would turn the Doom Blades into Diabolic Edicts. One, you're perfectly happy with them sacrificing Hierarchs or whatever instead of 'goyf because it supplements your mana denial plan and it gives you a MD out to Emrakul and Progenitus. I would also wish I had slots for Pridemage, but I just cut it from my list because he's just not big enough. You do have Deed, but a resolved CB floating 3 is problematic. Seems decent enough though.

[Hanni]

As you said it plays like Deadguy ale. The reason why deadguy ale isn't one of the best decks is because of all their grizzly bear creatures. It's consistent, strong, lots of ca. However it's slow due to small creatures.

This deck doesn't run Grizzly Bears or small creatures. :)


So i think the reason why i don't really love your list isn't because of the removal. I'm sure this rapes any control deck. But because of the dead cards against countertop.

Huh? How does this deck have alot of dead cards against CounterTop? CounterTop is actually one of the matchups that this deck rapes in the mouth. Especially the 4c versions of CounterTop; they are mana hungry and run a very vulnerable manabase, run some dead removal (Firespout), and both Vindicate and Pernicious Deed are a wrecking ball for them. A single resolved Knight of the Reliquary can systematically destroy their manabase with Wasteland tutoring, and Tombstalker isn't remotely within Counterbalance range.


The new glissa just seems like a toshiro umezawa. Also i love loam so i think i would use b/b/w with loam and diamond. You can run mana denial just as much smallpox and such. you gain ca from cycle lands. I just think it has a better late game because of CA, library manipulation and just recurring threats.

The new Glissa costs GGB for a 3/3 body. I'm not making arguments for or against Glissa, but I don't see what relevance Glissa has in regards to my list.

Loam is definitely a valid approach, but I'd be modeling the deck after Aggro Loam in that case (cycle lands, Entomb, etc). Aggro Loam Rock is another deck I've played with before, it's also incredibly strong; I actually posted a list for it on one of The Rock threads about 8 months ago or so (there's so many of them that I have no idea which one it was in).

Both decks are good decks, but they have completely different gameplans. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. The Loam version intends to grind the opponent out with card advantage; it's less aggressive and slower, but has a much stronger lategame. My version is more like a tempo version that wants to disrupt early and then beat face before the opponent can recover.

I'm of the personal opinion that my Deadguy version is already a bit slow (especially in comparison to New Horizons), and that it has a strong enough lategame as it is. Therefore, I think Deadguy Rock is better positioned in the current metagame. Again, that's my personal opinion.


I would turn the Doom Blades into Diabolic Edicts. One, you're perfectly happy with them sacrificing Hierarchs or whatever instead of 'goyf because it supplements your mana denial plan and it gives you a MD out to Emrakul and Progenitus. I would also wish I had slots for Pridemage, but I just cut it from my list because he's just not big enough. You do have Deed, but a resolved CB floating 3 is problematic. Seems decent enough though.

For testing purposes, I actually cut the Doom Blade's altogether for 3 Pernicious Deed. I upped my land count to 25 and cut the Savannah, going up to 4 Scrubland and 4 Bayou. In the sideboard, I cut the spot that Pernicious Deed was in for 4 Deathmark. So far, it's been working very well.

My maindeck answer to NO/Prog is to prevent my opponent from either having access to 2GG, keep them from having a green creature in play, or hopefully force them to discard the Natural Order. If they do resolve it, I either hope to race them with my own big guys, or scoop it up. Postboard, I gain access to Karakas.

Answering Emrakul is relatively the same: destroy their hand, limit their manasources, and scoop it up if they do resolve it (and I can't race them). Karakas postboard.

If I saw more Emrakul or Prog (I don't see either very often), I may run Diabolic Edict MD, and I'd definitely MD Karakas.

Here's the current list:

B/w/g Deadguy Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

So should this list get a new thread, or is it fine to stay here?

[sco0ter]

I recently saw some Standard Mimic Vat control decks and I wonder if this card could be used in the Rock in Legacy as well!?

Has anyone considered it together with creatures like Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, Wall of Blossoms, Fleshbag Marauder, ...?

Actually it sounds quite appealing to cast Shriekmaw/Witness/... each turn. It's like Isochron Scepter without card disadvantage. You can copy opponent's creatures, too and trigger the imprint with Cabal Therapy for own creatures.

[Rainbow Maker]

i was talking about grizzly bear s in deadguy ale not in your deck Hanni. I honestly feel the 4c countertop is not that amazing. It gets hurt by wasteland so much. I think i would rather use thoptertop, bant, u/b/w, u/w etc.

The remark about glissa wasn't meant at you. I read someone bringing her up again. She seems rather not that amazing.

My point with the loam was that both decks seems extremely slow. Your deck being a little faster. My thoughts were that maybe it would be a bit slower but would have a stronger late game than your current list.

But i have to say after you cut doomblades i think i like your list a lot more. I feel it's good because of your card advantage. 6 discard+ 3 deeds. I think the main reason i have problems with it is because it doesn't fit my play style.

You could try testing mimic vat, but it seems really slow and clunky. first and foremost most decks have swords which makes the vat iffy. secondly it's slower than equipment. It seems more like a win more card.

[Dzra]

I recently saw some Standard Mimic Vat control decks and I wonder if this card could be used in the Rock in Legacy as well!?

It's a 3 cmc artifact that doesn't affect the gamestate until turn 4 and even then it doesn't win you the game. For 4 mana, you can do a lot better.

[SpikeyMikey]

Hanni: here should be fine. It's not that much different from standard Rock. No more so than mine.

Mimic Vat is exceptional, but not for Rock. We've got other very mana intensive things to do. But is it 1.5 playable? I think so, in one of two shells. Either a slow, Landstill like control or an aggressive "big zoo" style green deck, probably loosely based on Jund.

[Evincarcrovax]

This is the list I've been using for the rock. It's a little more control based then the other decks i've seen here.

2 Fetid Heath
4 Twilight Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Elspheth, Knight-Errant

3 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Gigapede

SB:
3 Enginnered Plague
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Dueling Grounds
1 Loxodon Heirarch
2 Enlightened Tutor

[Dzra]

I guess you're on a bit of a budget. No Vindicate is ok I suppose if you don't have Wastelands. You really need some Goyfs and 4 KotR though. You don't have enough beats by a long shot. Gigapedes, Loxodons, and Edicts out, Kitchen Finks and Tops in. A third Arena or a set of Bobs couldn't hurt. If you have Eternal Witness, you should have a Volrath's Stronghold.

[Hanni]

Gigapedes, Loxodons, and Edicts out,

Gigapede is a monster against the control matchup. I play one in my sideboard, but if he has alot of control decks in his metagame, maindecking Gigapede is a good call.

[Dzra]

Gigapede isn't bad against control, but 5 mana is a big investment MD (or even SB) when you have no acceleration. Most likely he'll just get chump blocked into oblivion.

[Oiolosse]

Gigapede is a monster against the control matchup. I play one in my sideboard, but if he has alot of control decks in his metagame, maindecking Gigapede is a good call.

Second this. I extensively playtested Trisomy 21 and LOVED gigapede. By the way, have you checked out trisomy 21? It's hella fun and very very heavy control. The thread is a constructive read as well.

[Evincarcrovax]

Yeah I have a lot of of Counter top and Landstill decks and Gigapede has been working great for me. The Edicts are in there beacause last time I got killed by show and Tell and don't want that happening again. What would you recommend I take out for the fourth Knight? I had 4 before but took one out for a Giggapede. I'll try and find one volrath's stronghold, it seems pretty good.

[sdematt]

Go to 4 Knights and go to 61.

Happy New Year to all of those in the Rock Thread! :D

-Matt

[Dzra]

I wouldn't recomend going to 61. I'd say drop the 2 Diabolic Edict (Fit a Karakas somewhere in your mana base instead.) and add 1 KotR and 1 Arena.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

My maindeck answer to NO/Prog is to prevent my opponent from either having access to 2GG, keep them from having a green creature in play, or hopefully force them to discard the Natural Order. If they do resolve it, I either hope to race them with my own big guys, or scoop it up. Postboard, I gain access to Karakas.

Karakas does nothing to Progenitus...

And I second that notion Dzra. I hate going to 61 and will pretty much never do so. I know a lot of people even good players like to do that... but if you know anything about statistics you know it's only gonna hurt you in the long run.

[Dzra]

The only reason I've ever gone to 61 is during SBing, if I want to bring in a Bojuka Bog but think I might need my other utility lands.

[Julian23]

You know that that's illegal?

[Dzra]

How so?

[brianw712]

You have to have the same number of cards in your deck before and after boarding. If you began with sixty cards in game one, you have to have sixty cards for game two. I think Limited games are an exception, but for Legacy this is definitely true.

[Nidd]

How so?
You are not allowed to increase the number of cards in your deck when you SB.

[Dzra]

I've looked for it a few times in the comp rules. These are the only relevant things I could find:


100.4. Each player may also have a sideboard, which is a group of additional cards the player may use to modify his or her deck between games of a match.

100.4a In constructed play, sideboards are optional, but must contain exactly fifteen cards if used. The four-card limit (see rule 100.2a) applies to the combined deck and sideboard.


I'm not saying I don't believe you because it seems plausible, but I can't find anywhere where it says your deck or your sideboard must be the same number of cards before and after boarding. If you can find something contrary, let me know.

[Rico Suave]

You just quoted the part where it says your sideboard must be the same number of cards before and after boarding. Specifically, that number is always 15 if a SB is used.

[sdematt]

61 doesn't hurt your chances by that much. 4/61 vs. 4/60 is 6.67% and 4/61 is 6.56%. I'm not saying the chances aren't less, it's just not THAT much.

-Matt

[SpikeyMikey]

61 doesn't hurt your chances by that much. 4/61 vs. 4/60 is 6.67% and 4/61 is 6.56%. I'm not saying the chances aren't less, it's just not THAT much.

-Matt

The idea that 60is a hard, fast rule is one of the big misconceptions of Magic theory. While having less cards means a higher likelihood of seeing specific cards, some of which are far better than others, sometimes, ratios are more important than the chance of seeing a star card. If less was always better, this deck would be packing 4 Manamorphose and probably 4 Street Wraith. But having proper ratios and proper mana is important.

[Dzra]

Ah, I found it. It's in the DCI tournament rules, not the comprehensive rules for some reason.

[Rico Suave]

61 doesn't hurt your chances by that much. 4/61 vs. 4/60 is 6.67% and 4/61 is 6.56%. I'm not saying the chances aren't less, it's just not THAT much.

-Matt

Sure, a tenth of a percent. Per card.

That's what, 20-30 cards per game? Now consider that we're going to play at least 2 games if not 3 per match, and most tournaments will require us to play at least 8 matches to win them.

It definitely adds up.

The real point is why NOT play 60 cards? We try so hard to gain percentages here and there by choosing the best cards, getting up to date tech, playing tight, showing up sober, etc. Playing an Overgrown Tomb instead of a Bayou isn't THAT much different either - but you'd be crazy to give up free percentage points if you want to win.


The idea that 60is a hard, fast rule is one of the big misconceptions of Magic theory. While having less cards means a higher likelihood of seeing specific cards, some of which are far better than others, sometimes, ratios are more important than the chance of seeing a star card. If less was always better, this deck would be packing 4 Manamorphose and probably 4 Street Wraith. But having proper ratios and proper mana is important.

But the next step in this line of thought is to play a 300 card deck because it gives us more precise ratios. I think this is a pile of dog stuff.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Sure, a tenth of a percent. Per card.

That's what, 20-30 cards per game? Now consider that we're going to play at least 2 games if not 3 per match, and most tournaments will require us to play at least 8 matches to win them.

It definitely adds up.

The real point is why NOT play 60 cards? We try so hard to gain percentages here and there by choosing the best cards, getting up to date tech, playing tight, showing up sober, etc. Playing an Overgrown Tomb instead of a Bayou isn't THAT much different either - but you'd be crazy to give up free percentage points if you want to win.



But the next step in this line of thought is to play a 300 card deck because it gives us more precise ratios. I think this is a pile of dog stuff.

It's funny because I know that somebody like sdematt would bring up that it's such a small percentage. Then you say my exactly my thoughts in response. If you're going to a big tournament, say a grand prix, then these percentages really add up. Thanks Rico, I couldn't have said it better.

[Evincarcrovax]

Seeing as I only play legacy locally I'll just add the 4th Knight and go to 61.

[SpikeyMikey]

But the next step in this line of thought is to play a 300 card deck because it gives us more precise ratios. I think this is a pile of dog stuff.

Arguing ad absurdium is pointless for this as the opposite direction is just as ludicrous. Would you play a 7 card deck if it were legal? I'm not saying that a 61st or 62nd card is the right call, most times there *is* something weak that you can cut to make room, but I wouldn't say 60 is *always* right either. People have a tendency to ignore ratios in deck construction, operating by "feel" instead. "22 lands feels light for this deck". You don't see people discussing average mana cost or percentages of land drops hit on average. I'm too lazy to do it most of the time too, but if you're really looking to get that edge, ignoring ratios in favor of anecdotal evidence through limited playtesting is a greater sin than running 61.

[sdematt]

You're entitled to your opinion. At times I'm very glad I have 61 cards (usually it's an extra tutor target for Knight). If you don't like it, don't do it.

I'm not saying play Battle of Wits because you have access to everything, so don't take it out of context. In a tutor based deck, 61 isn't horrible to give you another out of some kind. I'm not saying we're a tutor based deck, but having 3 instead of 2 specialty lands has saved my life multiple times. The percentages may add up over the course of the games you'll play, but I highly doubt you'll draw shit the entire tournament because you have a 61st card.

Optimization is important in terms of card quality because you don't want the card you draw to be shit. Having a deck of 61 full of Dark Tutelage, Werebear, Condemn, and Ravnica duals will lead you to probably lose against most decks Rock does well against due to non-optimal card usage rather than having 61; they are two totally different issues of consistency/frequency vs. card optimization.

Also, not sure what this is supposed to mean, Magic.
It's funny because I know that somebody like sdematt would bring up that it's such a small percentage

-Matt

[Dzra]

There is no reason a deck with 60 cards should be anything less than ideal. If you find yourself going up to 61 cards, you are overvaluing some of your cards. That being said, it's much easier to overvalue cards in Legacy since the power level of playable cards is so high. Ratios are definitely important so it can be a tricky issue, but if you tinker with it long enough and try to be objective then you'll be able to get down to 60 cards.

[Rico Suave]

Arguing ad absurdium is pointless for this as the opposite direction is just as ludicrous. Would you play a 7 card deck if it were legal? I'm not saying that a 61st or 62nd card is the right call, most times there *is* something weak that you can cut to make room, but I wouldn't say 60 is *always* right either. People have a tendency to ignore ratios in deck construction, operating by "feel" instead. "22 lands feels light for this deck". You don't see people discussing average mana cost or percentages of land drops hit on average. I'm too lazy to do it most of the time too, but if you're really looking to get that edge, ignoring ratios in favor of anecdotal evidence through limited playtesting is a greater sin than running 61.

60 is the fewest we can legally play.

I would argue that we can achieve proper ratios with 60 cards in any deck, especially in Legacy with the broad card pool, but I already know where this is headed and I don't care enough to participate. The problem is that you can never actually prove that anything over 60 is correct. Ever. At least from a ratio standpoint (some things naturally break this rule like Battle of Wits). You can theorize that it's possible 60 isn't correct, but that's about it.

I just don't want people to read this thread and blindly assume that it's OK to run 61 cards because the vast majority of players do not feel this way and with good reason.


In a tutor based deck, 61 isn't horrible to give you another out of some kind. I'm not saying we're a tutor based deck, but having 3 instead of 2 specialty lands has saved my life multiple times.

I would say if that specialty land is important then it's not the 61st card.

But anyway no, it's not horrible to play 61 cards. It's also not horrible to tap the wrong lands, miscount damage during the attack step, or screw up our sequencing. Those things are only horrible when we lose because of them. But the problem is that it's very difficult for people to identify when they lose because of running 61 cards, since it's not the kind of thing that pops right out at us.

Anyway I'll just say one more thing since I don't want this thread to be an argument on the subject. There is always going to be a certain amount of variance in the game of Magic, and as a result we cannot guarantee victory. The best we can do is maximize our chances of winning. We have control over many factors that influence our chances of winning, and playing 60 cards is one of those factors even if it may not be as important as choosing a good deck or showing up to the tournament sober. Just be careful you have a reason to play 61 cards and not an excuse that you couldn't figure out what to cut.

[Oiolosse]

well put Rico. I will add this. I (as most) came from casual magic. Around the kitchen table you typically play 60 cards, but there are plenty of times you add some tech to your deck because you know that so and so is bringing *this or *that. I think that I am safe to assume that other people have done this too. Micromanaging decks to the kitchen meta has led funky deck numbers. People then carry this rationale forward to tournaments where 20+ games are played in competitive fashion. Once again, well put.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Awesome job explaining Rico!! It may not be as important as showing up sober, but sometimes if you're not winning, a few shots in between rounds and you will be winning!

@sdematt: This was meant as a compliment. I purposefully left out the details on how small of a percentage difference going to 61 makes because I know somebody like you (who is on top of their game) would point this out for everyone.

@ Rico, is it cool if I quote you in my signature - I really like this part "We have control over many factors that influence our chances of winning, and playing 60 cards is one of those factors even if it may not be as important as choosing a good deck or showing up to the tournament sober. Just be careful you have a reason to play 61 cards and not an excuse that you couldn't figure out what to cut. "

[Scopeye]

Has anyone tried cataclysm? It looks like it can be a house if it can be cast around t3-4, since all our creatures will most likely be bigger than the opponents creatures. Having a mox in play would also be very nice

[ZeinVoncy]

Has anyone tried cataclysm? It looks like it can be a house if it can be cast around t3-4, since all our creatures will most likely be bigger than the opponents creatures. Having a mox in play would also be very nice

Not a huge fan of the idea tbh. I don't see it being game chaning on T3-T4.

[SpikeyMikey]

Has anyone tried cataclysm? It looks like it can be a house if it can be cast around t3-4, since all our creatures will most likely be bigger than the opponents creatures. Having a mox in play would also be very nice

Cataclysm would be fine on occasion, most time it'd be dead weight. Not much good to you when your opponent has Jace out or Vial or any number of commonly played cards. It's too expensive and doesn't do enough.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Cataclysm would be fine on occasion, most time it'd be dead weight. Not much good to you when your opponent has Jace out or Vial or any number of commonly played cards. It's too expensive and doesn't do enough.

Cataclysm kills Jace.

[SpikeyMikey]

I was thinking of the wrong card. For some reason, I thought Cataclysm was the 5 mana wrath or geddon.

[Dzra]

Deed just seems like a better board wipe all around. What happens when you Cataclysm and they top deck a Swords or some other removal? Now you have to play the topdeck land game. How about they start top decking land and playing more dudes again while you're stuck with a KotR and 1 land? What about Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk that doesn't need more than 1 or 2 land to operate in the first place? Cataclysm will win you some games, but it's too risky and leaves a lot up to chance. You should be able to take control of the game without it.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I really like Cataclysm, but it just doesn't work. I've tried it before and it was rather unimpressive. I've even tried it in a RWG aggro loam build as a wish target and it still was not impressive there. It's just too risky. The only time I can see it being real impressive is in a counterbalance build.

[Evincarcrovax]

I think it's way too risky to play it. It doesn't really work well with this deck.

[damionblackgear]

Why is everyone discrediting the idea without even testing it. There is a list with 3 main-deck Armageddons that did pretty well.

[sdematt]

Yeah, but that was built around Armageddon (used Crucibles and Explorations as well, I believe.

I'm not going to discredit the idea, I just think you can't chuck into a Brad Nelson list and just go with it. I think it needs to be tested in a deck that could abuse it properly. Not sure what that would be, but just putting it out there :P

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Very true. The deck evolved to be able to use the Armageddon effects but, it had to start somewhere. Why not test the change? Especially since most of this forum has seemed to adopted Brad's list as it's Starting point and has Mox as their acceleration piece.

[Dzra]

I think that Cataclysm is probably too symmetrical to break. If decks heavily composed of Planeswalkers were more common, then maybe it'd be worth building around. Either way, it probably belongs in a deck with Crucible and Ghostly Prison (probably UW and maybe with Knight of the White Orchid, Enlightened Tutors, and an Ancient Den/Seat of the Synod also). In the Rock, it's just too much of a toss up.

[Hanni]

Cataclysm is a great card, it just requires that you build your deck around it. Anyone remember the old GW Terrageddon deck? Basically, you're going to want to run a G/W/x Aggro Loam build that runs 4 Exploration and 4 Mox Diamond to break the mana symmetry (and of course, Life from the Loam), and you're going to want to run both Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore. It's a pretty good deck design, and alot of fun to play, but it's not The Rock.

[Dzra]

Saturday, I beat BUG and Burn, losing to Goblins and Bant aggro. I was really tired, so to be fair I probably was making bad plays left and right. ;p

Today I beat Zoo, Burn, and Ooze combo. I drew with New Horizons to make it into the top 4 split.

I feel like UGW might be a tough color combo for us to handle, but more testing could be needed. They have access to a lot of removal and just as much or more tempo than us. Jace/Brainstorm/Ponders make sure they continue to topdeck well. If they can keep Bob off the field then we can easily run out of gas.

Goblins is always a close MU for me, so that wasn't too surprising.

[Bignasty197]

As a former Rock player and current Bant Aggro player, the one card I dislike seeing against Junk is Deed. It usually hits the board after I get Hymned or Thoughtseized when I have no Force in hand. Basically, when Deed resolves, I lose. Post Board, I have seen a few rock lists use Cold-Eyed Selkies. They do very well.

[Dzra]

Maybe a stretch, but... Jake? lol

And yeah, I've always had success with Selkies against any non-combo Blue deck.

[Bignasty197]

If you played those Selkies against me and proceeded to beat me to death with them for 6 turns after I Needled Wasteland, Deed and Top, then you must be Ryan.

[Dzra]

That was brutal, not going to lie. Still lost the match... but you got what you deserved. ha

[Bignasty197]

I'll be playing Merfolk next Saturday, so bring those Selkies again.

[sdematt]

Last I checked, Mike Jacob was at 16 points in Round 7 playing Junk. Not too shabby :P

-Matt

[Dzra]

Disappointing finish. Why was Mike playing Stirring Wildwoods and why run Spellbomb over Extirpate?

[RexFTW]

When looking at this list from a SCG tourney I am trying to figure out how this deck has any chance of beating combo. What am i missing?

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Kataki, War's Wage

[Dzra]

Hymn, Verdict, and Thoughtseize are all good MD cards. Extirpate is great from the SB. Some lists run 2-3 Duress in the board also. Verdicate/Wastelands is good at keeping their mana off balance (black sources especially). I suppose Deeds aren't bad for the occasional storm tokens. Really, it's not a great MU, but we do better than most any other deck that isn't running Blue.

[f|i[p]]

Played this deck over the weekend, eventually ended with 4-3 as I gave 1 game to a team mate... My list is different since I don't run mox D.

Won against ,Stax, merfolk, mono b, dredge.
Lost against ,merfolk and goblins
Me and my team mate played and I won against Aggro loam. but decided to give him the match since he had a better record.

Was expecting a lot of aggro decks, but the top 8 was filled with combo.

The merfolk and goblin match is still 50/50... But I think I can handle them pretty well as long as they don't go crazy early or get 2 standstills or 2 ringleaders. I ended up losing to both on game 3 as for double standstill and 3 - 4 silvergills. Goblin was very good player as well as drawing ringleader into 3 creatures with another ringleader.. which draws into more cards...

My sb has to be fixed still...Wish there was a life link creature that Gwb which was around 3 cc.

What is a good sb for both goblins and burn?



@RexFTW
Its very hard to beat combo with this deck. You'll have to get good follow up discard spells after your initial discard.. This is from my experience with it however. The only combo deck I find easy to beat with my list is dredge. show and tell is 50/50. Ant and the Rest I guess are slight unfavorable. However Belcher is very unfavorable in my experience.

[sdematt]

I board in 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 3 Duress, along with Maindeck Hymns and Thoughtseize. I do okay.

-Matt

[ZZZ]

;513223']My sb has to be fixed still...Wish there was a life link creature that Gwb which was around 3 cc.

What is a good sb for both goblins and burn?


Kitchen Finks

[f|i[p]]

I think finks was never enough for burn....Maybe sanctity , as they help vs combo as well.. ill think about it...Gaining 2 life just doesn't cut it for me...

[Dzra]

I wonder if it'd be possible to splash Red for Firespout. Add a Badlands MD and 3-4 Firespouts in the side. Just thinking out loud. It could be pretty devastating for Merfolk and Goblins, although both of those decks have Wastelands, so maybe not. We also have Mox Diamonds though.

Dueling Grounds just doesn't sit well with me, but I suppose that is always a strong option. Is there anything that Goblins (not splashing Green) can do against it?

[JimmyC27]

Dueling Grounds just doesn't sit well with me, but I suppose that is always a strong option. Is there anything that Goblins (not splashing Green) can do against it?

Pump out chump blockers until they get a Siege Gang Commander, and then try to shock you to death.

[sdematt]

They'll try to gum up the board with blockers until they can Siege Gang you, very true. That is why I also usually bring in Leyline against Goblins (at times). I'm thinking of a 3/1 Dueling Grounds/Plague split at the moment, but I'm not sure. I don't think going to 4 colours is the answer, but giving it a shot isn't a bad idea, Drza.

Anyone check the results? 5th and 8th? places for Junk! Mind you, Stirring Wildwood is garbage, but I saw a maindeck Maelstrom Pulse! All in all, the meta is back to the way it was (I was expecting more TES, but maybe they got locked out by all the CB out there).

Good job to anyone playing Rock at SCG, and good luck at the next tournament! I'm still really sad Survival is gone though :(

-Matt

[RexFTW]

;513223']Played this deck over the weekend, eventually ended with 4-3 as I gave 1 game to a team mate... My list is different since I don't run mox D.

Won against ,Stax, merfolk, mono b, dredge.
Lost against ,merfolk and goblins
Me and my team mate played and I won against Aggro loam. but decided to give him the match since he had a better record.

Was expecting a lot of aggro decks, but the top 8 was filled with combo.

The merfolk and goblin match is still 50/50... But I think I can handle them pretty well as long as they don't go crazy early or get 2 standstills or 2 ringleaders. I ended up losing to both on game 3 as for double standstill and 3 - 4 silvergills. Goblin was very good player as well as drawing ringleader into 3 creatures with another ringleader.. which draws into more cards...

My sb has to be fixed still...Wish there was a life link creature that Gwb which was around 3 cc.

What is a good sb for both goblins and burn?



@RexFTW
Its very hard to beat combo with this deck. You'll have to get good follow up discard spells after your initial discard.. This is from my experience with it however. The only combo deck I find easy to beat with my list is dredge. show and tell is 50/50. Ant and the Rest I guess are slight unfavorable. However Belcher is very unfavorable in my experience.


so the deck is basically 50/50 in all matchups?


I didnt see this in the thread yet, but how does this seem in the deck?

Glissa, the Traitor - BGG
Legendary Creature - Zombie Elf (Mythic Rare)
First Strike, Deathtouch.
Whenever a creature an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
3/3
The return an artifact ability doesnt seem so good, but the firststrike + deathtouch seems hawt.

[sdematt]

The artifact ability doesn't mean much here unless you're running EE, Equipment, and such. The fact that she's Legendary means she's a 2-of, but she seems VERY solid. I'm definitely going to try her as a two-of.

-Matt

[Dzra]

so the deck is basically 50/50 in all matchups?

Basically, the goal of the deck is to be versitile against the field as a whole pre-board and to use the SB to bring the match in your favor.

I don't like Glissa because the only worthwhile interaction I see with her is EE and I feel that Deed trumps EE in almost every situation. It's true that Firststrike + Death Touch basically kills any non-evasive creature... but 1 on 1 our beaters already do that pretty well. The main exception would be a Goyf standoff.

btw, does anyone have a link to the top decklists from Kansas?

[sdematt]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City

or

http://bit.ly/fzlApc

-Matt

[RexFTW]

Dueling grounds seems better with Terravore in your deck. Consider Silent Arbiter instead because it does not require W.

[sdematt]

It dies to removal like a champ, that's the problem, and it costs 4. At that point, I'd rather run more Deeds.

@Terravore
I think if I wanted to run 2 more creatures, it'd be a tossup between Doran, Glissa, and Terravore. Anything with Evasion and Dueling Grounds is good (including Elspeth), and trample would make Dueling Grounds infinitely better. But, I suspect most opponents are going to board Gravehate because that's the only thing they can do, so I fear Terravore not getting big may be an issue here.

Drza may have a good point with the Firespout case. The only problem I see is it doesn't tap for anything relevant game 1 except for black (which is relevant, but you get my point) and it can't be cycled by KotR into another land you may need. This might not be a problem, but I'm just seeing both sides before I jump in with both feet.

Would give a better edge against Tribal (you'd basically side out Vindicate for Spout, keeping Swords in). Kills our Dark Confidants, but it's probably worth it if you're going to sweep like a champ. I will give it a test, mostly because I now have a Beta Badlands for the slot! :D

Also, does anyone here have Rock pimped out in any way? I'd love to see some pics or just chat about it.

-Matt

[Dzra]

I think I'll probably give the Badlands/Firespout a shot this Sat. The question would be what land to cut. I don't much want to cut a basic, so I'd be inclined to say a Bayou perhaps. That would leave me with one of each basic, 8 fetches (Marsh/Verdant), 2 Bayou, 2 Scrubs, and 1 Badland. I could potentially cut a Forest or Plains instead, but I don't much like the idea. I suppose I could also be convinced to lose the (foil ;p) Sejiri Steppe, but I'd miss it.

As far as pimped out goes... I have 3 Judge foil Deeds and a French DD Elspeth and StPs. Most of my SB is foiled out too, but that's nothing too exciting. If anyone has other foil/promo stuff from my list that you'd want to trade, you should message me! lol

[ZeinVoncy]

Glad to see the thread back and going strong again after it's performance @ SCG-KC. We a DTB yet? Haha.

As to pimped out decks, sadly enough, mine is not. I started to pimp out a Vintage Turboland deck, but stopped that ages ago. As far as my pimpness goes is 1 DCI Wasteland and 2 Foiled Knight of the Reliquary. I have talked to a few artists about getting alters done, but hell, I'd rather pay my rent instead.
Been after a Japanese Foil Pernicious Deed for many years (IMO- Judge P. Deed is HIDEOUS!), but alas, it's not within my current funds. I still to figure out a way to get my friends Tarmogoyfs so i actually have my own playset. Will I ever fully pimp out my deck? Prolly not, but I'd love to.

[schniggaz]

For sdematt:

A strange list, but pimped out xP
After the Eternal Witness you'll see a few cards for a sideboard! It always changes.

http://up.picr.de/6079555.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079557.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079592.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079593.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079594.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079595.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079624.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079625.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079626.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079627.jpg
http://up.picr.de/6079628.jpg

PS: Most of the stuff is for sale.

[ForlornEgoist]

What set are those plains/swamps from? How much do they go for? They're uber sexy. >)

I'm starting to become more and more intrigued by Glissa. First Strike-Deathtouch means she can really only be killed by double-blockers or spells, making her much more resilient on the field. Granted she's Legendary so she can only be a 2-3. Also, I doubt decks beyond mine (which runs the Stoneforge toolbox) could make use of her artifact recursion. But I definitely plan to trade for her at the prelease and try her out in some tourneys.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

They're Guru and usually about 30-40 a piece

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

PS: Most of the stuff is for sale.

Do you happen to have the cards priced out somewhere's? I'd be interested price dependent on some of the cards.

[makochman]

What set are those plains/swamps from? How much do they go for? They're uber sexy. >)

I'm starting to become more and more intrigued by Glissa. First Strike-Deathtouch means she can really only be killed by double-blockers or spells, making her much more resilient on the field. Granted she's Legendary so she can only be a 2-3. Also, I doubt decks beyond mine (which runs the Stoneforge toolbox) could make use of her artifact recursion. But I definitely plan to trade for her at the prelease and try her out in some tourneys.

Forlorn Egoist

702.2b. A player assigning combat damage from a creature with deathtouch can divide that damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking or blocked by it. This is an exception to the procedures described in rules 510.1c-d.

She can distribute her 3 first strike damage to 3 blockers, killing each. So it actually takes 4 blockers, each with power 3 or higher, to kill her. Regardless, she's not very powerful.

[sdematt]

Keep offers to a PM, I don't want to clutter up the thread with price haggling or what have you. Pimp pictures I don't mind, though. Deck discussion is also good :D

-Matt

[Dzra]

I just saw a techy card that I hadn't seen before. It's application is obviously narrow, but since it requires no splash and wrecks one of our toughest MUs, it might be a promising 2-of.

Tivadar's Crusade

[2Rach]

Engineered Plague does more for your mana. Cripples the goblins on the field enough that it doesn't matter, and sticks around so they can't Goblin Ringleader/Siege-gang Commander into a win easily. Also has splash damage against elves or random decks that might have the same creature types, though I consider it weak against Merfolk. There's also Dueling Grounds and Ghostly Prison, both of which I consider to be better and more versatile than Tivadar's Crusade.

EDIT:
Basically, permanent hate is better than just wiping the field, since goblins have many card advantage creatures and Vial so a lot of the time you're not doing much.

[makochman]

I just saw a techy card that I hadn't seen before. It's application is obviously narrow, but since it requires no splash and wrecks one of our toughest MUs, it might be a promising 2-of.

Tivadar's Crusade

It's only marginally better than Infest. And they can recover from a one-time sweep, they're adapted to that.

Also, what 2Rach said.

If you're playing a creature-heavy variant (i.e. not Dark Horizons), then Mystic + Jitte really shines in that MU.

[sdematt]

Crusade is very good in a different build. I'm running Crusade in my Landstill sideboard. Here, I think Firespout may be as good, or a tad better because it wipes out all creatures. If Tivadar's was "Choose a creature type. Destroy all of the chosen type," I'd put it in right away.

Drza, have you tested with Firespout yet? Just curious.

I'm going between the following lists, just wondering what you all think. Left slash includes one build, right slash is the variant. Basically, running a single Badlands to support sideboard Firespout, and if Mox Diamond is also necessary to support that splash.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2/4 Marsh Flats
2/0 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4/3 Scrubland
3/4 Bayou
0/1 Badlands
1/0 Savannah

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Top
0/3 Mox Diamond
2 Path to Exile
1/0 Maelstrom Pulse
1/0 Inquisition of Kozilek

Board:
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Deed
0/3 Firespout
3/1 Dueling Grounds
1/0 Engineered Plague


Basically, do I run a Badlands to try out Firespout, and if I do, do I also run Mox Diamonds? I'm planning to try a single Badlands, Mox Badlands, and neither build. Not running Moxes means somewhat susceptible to Wasteland in knocking out my Red source for further Firespouts, but *slightly* limits my ability to have Pulse and more goodies. I've argued in the past that I've never had the nuts with Mox Diamond to really make it worth it and I'd rather have a higher "threat" density. But now, should I run it if I splash Firespout so make sure I have access to Red if I have the possibility of actually land-screwing myself with Mox Diamond (pitch a land to Mox, but then don't follow it up).

Thoughts on my rambling?

-Matt

[Dzra]

I think that the key is only tutoring up the Badlands when you have the Firespout in hand and you're getting ready to blow it. Obviously, that plan won't work all the time, sometimes you'll just need the mana and can't wait. All that said, I think Mox Diamonds makes the Red splash a lot more viable.

I haven't had time to test yet. I'm starting school next week and I've had auditions and stuff going on all week. I'll be sleeving up a Badlands and 3 Firespouts and depending on who I see there this Saturday I'll make the call. ;p All is fair in love and meta-gaming... If someone has a larger tourny to report from that'd be great, but nothing is coming near Texas for a while.

[JimmyC27]

Thoughts on my rambling?

-Matt

I think the Firespout idea is worth playtesting, but I'm not terribly crazy about splashing red for 1 sideboard card. Splashing red in this manner seems to be stretching the deck a bit too far. I pilot a Goblins deck.. the deck can consistently play through 2-4 "Wrath" effects in the same game and still overrun the opponent. I find the permanent effect of Engineered Plague to be harder to deal with, especially given that most Goblins builds don't play R/G right now. The only real answer R/B has to E. Plague is to lay down Chieftains.

In short, I'd rather play the permanent enchantment that's tougher for Goblins to play through, than I would play 3x Wrath effect on the SB. However, the Wrath effect has other uses in other match ups.


Cheers,

Jimmy

[sdematt]

Thoughts on the rest of the build, though?

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

Unless you're expecting to face Goblins, I would suggest against running Engineered Plague since Goblins is really the only deck it has any notable strength against. Merfolk runs 12+Lords/Counters, Elves has KGrip/Other removal, or can just blow you out with NO-Pro, Slivers has counters/Harmonic, and any other tribal is typical sub-par enough where you don't even need E. Plague to win.
Just because Gobs can play through a board sweep doesn't mean they're any less useful. Dueling Grounds enables you to deal with their board position with ease, and makes some of their best beaters like Piledriver moot. Sure, they can still ping you with Siege-Gangs, but you run Vindicate/StP which can be redirected to annoying creatures like Siege-Gang after Grounds hits the table. Deed is still a powerful sweeper. You can even do what I've done on ocassion and side-in Extirpate, removing annoyances like Ports, Siege-Gangs, or hit notable splash cards like Warren Weirding.

As for the build, I'm not sure how I feel about the MD Karakas. It is definitely a meta call, but I personally wouldn't choose to run it in an unknown meta. Yeah, it shuts off Emrakul or Iona, but decks that run either are more likely to drop the creature before you can draw/tutor the Karakas. I would prefer to do something like -1 Karakas/-1 Badlands for +2 Wasteland (please don't argue go 4 or none with this deck as you can reasonably run 2 with KotR). Of course, I opted to run 4 Wastes even with KotR.

I definitely like the additional 2 PtE (running 2 in my SB as my meta has lots of aggro so the MD Deed are a little bit more relevant).

Forlorn Egoist

[JimmyC27]

Thoughts on the rest of the build, though?

-Matt

The left list seems pretty standard to me, with the exception of 2x Path, 1x Maelstrom, 1x Inquisition, -3 Mox. What's in your meta, and what do you use the extra removal/discard on? What do you need the 3 dmg creature sweeper for? These questions should probably answer what should be in the rest of the build.

Some thoughts though...

@1 Pernicious Deed:

With Deed I always seem to be faced with the dilemma of sweeping the board clear of my own critters (which is a problem for this creature light deck), or that Deed doesn't feel quick enough. My quarrel with Deed in this list is that it would wipe away your Mox Diamonds, which you'll probably be needing for red sources. If I ran Firespout, I would cut the 1x Deed. If I had a metagame heavy with Enchantress, Stax, and Stoneforge Mystics, I'd run 2x Deeds and 0x Firespouts. Even in the Affinity matchup, you can Deed for 0 on turn 3 and wipe out their lands/0 cc creatures.


@3 Mox Diamond:

I like the acceleration option with 3x Diamonds--even though you're not excited by it. 1st turn Hymn or 2nd turn Knight is always a good option to have, especially when the other deck is significantly faster (Goblins, Zoo...). Even if I draw into a Mox late, I can usually cast it and sac it to feed Goyf.

If I ran Firespout, I would definitely include Mox Diamond to make it easier to stretch four colors. You're not running Wastelands either, so I'm guessing you're pretty color consistent on white/green/black. Personally, I ran the non-Wasteland manabase for a while for consistency. However, I've come to the conclusion that not playing Wasteland in Legacy is a handicap to yourself. I'd find a way to fit Wasteland into my deck before trying to fit a 4th color in.



Overall, I see 9 discard spells, 11 spot removal cards, and 1 Deed. In what situations has not having a board sweeper been a problem? Also, is 3 damage enough to clear the board? If you REALLY need a creature sweeper, I would side in something like:

-1 Inquisition
-1 Deed/Path/Maelstrom

+2 Damnation (I'd test 2BB before 1RG, using Mox Diamond to help accelerate to your 4 drop).


If you need a full board sweeper, I would side:

-1 Inquisition

+1 Deed for 2 total. (It's not fast, but it's the most effective at clearing the entire board.)



Given the options, my opinion is that Firespout has to be better than Deed/EE or Damnation/Wrath of God to make it worth your while. I just don't think it is.


If you want me to explain some of my thoughts in more detail, lemme know. I can shoot you back once I have a better idea what you're playing against too.

[Dzra]

Not that I'm sold on Firespout yet, but the selling point is that it will wipe out most, if not all, of a Merfolk/Goblin field (even if they have a lord or two in play) while leaving your Goyfs/Knights untouched.

Engineered Plague won't wipe the field if there is a lord in play, so unless you drop it early, you can still easily be overrun. Damnation will wipe your board as well. Deed is good, but it can be unreliable against Goblins when they have a fair number of 4 and 5 cmc drops (Ringleader and Seige-Gang come to mind). EE is unreliable for the same reason, except more so. Path is obviously good because it helps you grab control early, but later in the game 1-for-1 doesn't cut it against Goblins (against Fish it's fine). Tivadar's Crusade is a good wipe for Goblins, but has few uses outside of that (perhaps in TES/Belcher?), not to mention double white can be a problem at 3cmc.

Dueling Grounds and Firespout are the best answers as I see it, but they both have their downsides.

On a sidenote, when looking for things to side out verses Goblins, I'm torn between Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. Both have their benefits, what are people's opinions on what to side out? Confidant gives more CA per life (and more CA in the long run), but the ability of Thoughtseize to grab key cards like Lacky, Vial, Matron, and especially Ringleader can be amazing.

[jazzykat]

I have long been pondering how I can play all of the best creatures in Legacy in one deck, and I would honestly put Bob, Goyf, KotR as the top 3. This deck is simply a pile of the best Legacy cards in GBW and I love the idea of playing really good cards that happen to support each other.

My only question is why Mox Diamond? I get what it does but why not pack 1 CC answers for a matchup you are concerned about such as Duress, PtE, Pithing Needle or whatever it is that you need the extra speed for.

My meta seems to have a bunch of the slower combo decks (Spring Tide, (Sneaky)/(Dreamhalls) Show & Tell), U-Tempo, Slow U (top) based control, and Landscrew decks (Pox, Trisomie 21).

Do you guys think Diamonds make sense in this meta?

[Dzra]

The way I look at it is that Diamond is the best tempo in the format. It allows t1 Hymn, t1 Wasteland + Thoughtseize, t1 Thoughtseize + Extirpate, t1 Goyf, t1 Bob, t2 Vindicate, t2 KotR, and sometimes even t1 KotR.

I think the ability to make these plays is what potentially gives this deck an edge, but I can also imagine a meta or a matchup where more consistent t1 disruption might look better. I would recomend running Duress in the board and switching out with Diamond g2/3 before I would recomend cutting Diamond.

Still, being able to hit Vindicate faster does seem relevant against decks like High Tide and Show and Tell. Extirpate can be a real house against combo, Dreamhalls in particular.

[sdematt]

@ MD Karakas

With all the Show and Tell Sneak Attack decks out there, I want to be prepared. I used to run Karakas in the board, but as the tournaments went on, it became more and more relevant and it was moved to the main. Emrakul is a real pain, as is Iona (more relevant when Reanimator was king, but now Emrakul is very played, as is Iona in Dredge).

My meta is very weird. We usually have ~12 players, but there can be 2-3 Stax players at any point, 3 Goblins, 2-3 Merfolk, 1-2 Dreadstill, 1 Elves, ~1-2 TES, and myself. A tad combo heavy and Stax heavy for my liking. We've had times where 3/10 people were playing Stax. THAT was one of my worst nightmares.

E Plague is only good against Goblins. Mind you, it's REALLY good against Goblins. Problem? Not very good against Merfolk. You need to clear their board and lay down 2 for it to be effective. Dueling Grounds stalls their head on assault, but it leads to a bit of a war of attrition.

@ Goblin Sideboard:
I like having Thoughtseize if I'm playing first, but if not, I'll take it out.

@ JimmyC27
I'm playing a bunch of Tribal and some Storm, along with Dreadstill. Having the extra discard/removal has usually been pretty good, just not sure if the two pieces are worth the Diamonds or not. Again, I've found most of the time that I'm playing, I either pitch a land to the Mox and stick at one land one Mox, or I don't hit Mox at all and play normally, or I hit Mox and land but no 2 CMC relevant spell (first turn Tarmogoyf = meh when it's 1/2). I've had instances of T1 Hymn, but that was few and far between.

I've been liking the extra Paths, though. For those of you who aren't running 6 Swords, I suggest it. 2 Verdict's are okay, but 2 Paths have been much better against any Aggro deck I've faced.

@ Deed + firespout
I see your point here. I would remove Deed if running Firespout, I think. I'm not sold on Firespout either, but I'll give it a test.

@ 2 Deeds
Deed is very good, especially against Enchantress, Stax, etc. which plagues my meta at times. Also, it's a house against many random Rogue decks, so having 2 after boarding isn't half bad.

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

That's a lot of Stax.. yikes. Sounds like Dueling Grounds, Deed and Leyline of Sanctity are all perfect sideboard options for you--so it seems like you're already playing optimal cards. I wouldn't wanna push a 4th color for Firespout with all those decks (Stax, Goblins, Merfolk) running Wastelands.

[swarm187]

With the banning of Survival, I've been looking to build something new in Legacy. Rock builds have always appealed to me as a player because they suit my play-style, so I've been brushing up on this thread over the last few days. I played Loam Rock when I first started playing in Legacy tournaments, and it was always a lot of fun. I just had a few comments I wanted to share:

1. Rock decks like to come in 4th place. Some take this as a slight on the deck, but it's the best way to describe the type of deck design that Rock builds historically follow. This type of deck is designed to have solid matchups against the rest of the field Game 1, then seek to gain advantage out of the sideboard to swing the match your way in Games 2 and 3.
With that said, I feel like Mox Diamond is a very strong card to play in this deck. The acceleration in grants you within the first 3 turns is almost essential to gaining board position and winning Game 1. Turn 1 Wasteland into Thoughtseize is simply crushing. That's just one example that someone else gave earlier in the thread, but it speaks to the power that Mox Diamond has in Rock builds. For me, it seems like a maindeck staple.

2. I feel like splashing Red for Firespout is spreading things a little too thin. IMO, relying on Mox Diamond to cast it, or at least to smooth out the splash, is a risky venture. I think that sideboard slot would be better served as an exta spot removal spell/creature. Eternal Witness and Qasali Pridemage seem like real options here, but that depends on your meta game. Either way, I'm going to test Firespout to see if it fits, but at first glance it seems like a stretch.

3. Has anyone tested Gaddock Teeg in the sideboard? He seems like a good way to get around alot of the combo decks that are running around. I understand that he's fairly fragile, but it seems like he answers an awful lot for not a lot of investment.

4. Does anyone have the new list that's running 4- Vindicate and 4- Maelstrom Pulse? I've heard rumblings about it around here and it seems interesting. I'm not sure what gets cut for the additional Pulses, but those seem like they would work miracles in games against the tribal decks.


Like I wrote, I really like this deck and the cards that you all have added to it. I'll sleeve it up and test, and maybe I'll throw some thoughts on here afterwards.

[ZeinVoncy]

@ Swarm187
I feel the use of 4x Vindicate and 4x Maelstrom Pulse is overkill. I personally play 3x [cards]Vindicate[/cads] and 2x Maelstrom Pulse. The additional 2 slots that are being used for could be used for something else in an area that we lack. Even with the aggro that running around, I still say there are better options.

Just out of a curiosity, how do think a Control version of Rock sporting Engineered Explosives and Bitterblossom would fare? I have not seen any mention to the use of Bitterblossom in our threads, is it viable for Rock to use it?

[Dzra]

The only time I can recall seeing Pulse in a report from a big tourny was Kansas. It was the stock Dark Horizons list with -1 Verdict, +1 Pulse.

I think part of the problem with Bitterblossom is that the life loss really adds up from that, Bob, and Thoughtseize. It definitely doesn't seem like a bad card though.

[sdematt]

I think Bitterblossom would be fine in a Stoneforge build, since you turn those tiny critters into tiny critters carrying weaponry. Otherwise, they're a little less intimidating.

I know it's played in some builds of Team America, and I'm sure it'd be good with Innocent Blood/sac effects.

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

I've had some success testing Bitterblossom in a Deadguy Ale/Stoneforge deck (like Matt referenced). I also run Vampire Nighthawk to offset the life loss. Bitterblossom seems to work in the Stoneforge package pretty well because you always have a dude with evasion to stick things on.

[sdematt]

I want to see what happens at SCG San Jose. Is anyone from here going?

Either way, I'm going to ask to get this moved to DTB soon.

-Matt

[jazzykat]

I just got my ass handed to me by merfolk Ub splash playing the most recent scg top 8 list. The first game my confidant did 10+ damage to me and I didn't see much land. The second game jitte took it to my goyfs.

What is the current sb strategy vs. Merfolk as I seen a lot of arguing lately but perhaps no agreement?

[sdematt]

First off, I'd say drop Gerrard's Verdict for Path to Exiles.

Second, Board in: Dueling Grounds/Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict (if you're playing it), Deed (if you have room).

Board out: Hand disruption (isn't as good here).

At least, that's what I usually do. Sometimes I take out Vindicates, but personally I've found I'm sometimes in need of them as well.

What's your guys' plan if you're playing the SCG 5th place list versus Merfolk?

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

The best answer I've found to beating Merfolk is to side in Dueling Grounds and Pernicious Deed (assuming you're like me and don't MD it). MD Merfolk has no answers to either beyond counters, and unless they run green splash for Goyf/Kgrip it's unlikely they'll have an answer Post-board (although there are still a few die-hard Mono-U builds running Stifle). Dueling Grounds isn't a long-term solution since cantrips/Standstill will enable them to draw into more lords which will add up fast, but it can easily stall out the game to the point where you have a chance to win. If you're running Maze of Ith, this can also help to stall them out under Grounds although Merfolk does run Wasteland. And Deed is quite obviously a great board sweeper. If you have them EE may be a little bit more relevant than Deed since it will clear the board of 3cc for 5 rather than 6.

SBing out is rather easy for this MU: -4 Hymns -4 Vindicate are typically what I auto-out. Vindicate's targets are either Vial or a creature. 3 mana and a turn to kill 1 creature is too slow against Merfolk. A lot of other players will side out Thoughtseize over Vindicate, but like I said just a sentence ago I don't like spending 3 mana and 1 turn to kill 1 threat when they're running enough lords to keep consistent creature drops turn after turn. Thoughtseize can also be used as a kill spell, and better yet it only costs 1 and lets me do other things in a turn. Of course, this is just a personal preference and I can easily understand why people would opt for Vindicate over Thoughtseize.

I also often SB in Extirpate in this MU, although not everyone would. Removing 4 of their Lords (particularly the good ones Reejery/Coralhelm) can easily tip the match in your favor.

ForlornEgoist

[Hanni]

The Deadguy Rock deck I posted a few pages back, and in the Sinkhole SCD thread, absolutely smashes Merfolk.

The combination of discard, land destruction, answer to Vial, loads of creature removal, and big fatties is a serious problem for them. Resource Denial is extremely potent against Merfolk, and they have problems swinging into large men.

[JimmyC27]

[QUOTE=sdematt;514600What's your guys' plan if you're playing the SCG 5th place list versus Merfolk?

-Matt[/QUOTE]

Merfolk will have something like:

8-11 Counterspells (They probably side some of these out for Perish or Submerge?)
12 Lords
20 Creatures


If the Merfolk pilot seems like (s)he's pretty aggro with their deck and doesn't rely on counter support a lot, I'd probably go:

-2 Verdict
-4 Thoughtseize
-4 Hymn

+4 Plague
+3 Extirpate
+3 Edict

This gives me:

16 Removal spells
3 ways to get rid of the Lords I kill (Kind of like a 4 for 2.)


If you're worried about the counters or Perish coming in, I would go:

-2 Verdict
-1 Hymn

+3 Extirpate

Then shoot myself in the face for playing Verdict. Do people just netdeck lists and show up without testing? How does Verdict not get cut in these Top8 lists?


@sdematt: Have you had more luck going with disruption or removal against Merfolk? I seem 50/50 against Merfolk, but seems to win more when I ruin their hands early and get a threat down. That's not always possible though, because they can protect their hands with counters.. or should be able to.

[sdematt]

I'll be doing some more testing Thursday, so Ill be able to tell you more then.

Thoughtseize is nice if you can strip Vial, Reejerey etc., but much of the time when stuff starts landing you're always looking for removal. Ideally, I'd love to have both, but it never seems to work out.

I'm a fan of more removal though, since it makes them make some sort of investment before I get rid of it, either by mana or tapping their vial. Thoughtseize just means they have mana open to play other cards, albeit not as good ones.

Again, more testing to do :D

-Matt

[RexFTW]

If you really want to beat merefolk post board you can go ahead and bring in choke and pithing needle or Kataki, War's Wage. Drawing a combination of these cards basically renders them unable to play spells. So you rpost board gameplan is: dump their hand, needle on vial, choke, stabilize, win.

[dyzzy]

So I'm running a slightly atypical Dark Horizons (btw I still really hate that name) list and I'm having a lot of trouble against Countertop and New Horizons; in the past two weeks I've gone 0-2 in matches vs New Horizons and 2-1 vs Countertop (sounds good, but one match was due to lucksacking and the other went to time but he conceded on the last turn). Am I just a bad player or are those decks supposed to be bad matchups.

For reference this is my list (for cards with 2 numbers: first one is my list from last week, second one is my list from this week):

Lands (23):
1x Swamp
1x Plains
0/1x Forest
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Horizon Canopy
1/0x Karakas
4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith

Creatures (14):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage (replacing the typical Gerrard's Verdicts since I've been unimpressed by them)

Spells (23):
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Diamond
1x Pernicious Deed

SB:
3x Duress
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Gaddock Teeg
3/0x Kitchen Finks
2/0x Path to Exile
0/3x Engineered Plague
0/1x Karakas
0/1x Bojuka Bog

I've been trying to think of how I can improve those matchups without hurting other matchups too much. The cards I've been considering are Krosan Grip, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and Volrath's Stronghold, these are the changes I'm considering:
-1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Volrath's Stronghold
-3 Goddock Teeg, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Elspeth Knight-Errant

Any suggestions?

[JimmyC27]

@dyzzy:

Countertop -- Krosan Grip in the board helps get Counterbalance off the board. Also, Elspeth is a good addition because it's 4cc and Counterbalance has trouble stopping since they run so few 4 cc cards.

New Horizons -- You can try Extirpating their win conditions. I struggle with this match up too though.

[Dzra]

I feel like the deck is still missing something. Sometimes it just flops. I'm going to start messing around with Tidehollow Scullers again. I know it can be easily removed and people don't generally speak well of it, but at worst it's still a 1-for-1. The more early disruption I can get in, the better off I usually am. At least Tidehollow is a better topdeck than pure discard.

[RexFTW]

a 2/2 for 2 is good? loli

[novatinhu]

I dont have the Goyf's :frown: and I dont have plans to buy it for now, so i tried to keep this deck strong without it and i build that list, what do you think?

I hope you help me to build my SB and strong the MD.
My field:
2x Merfolks (1 MonoU, 1 UW splash)
1x Goblins (G splash for krosan on side)
1x Elfball
1x Reveilark
1x Dredge
2x MonoR slight
1x Boros agro
1x BG rock

PS: Sry for the english I'm Brazilian. :eek:


Lands (22):
4x Wasteland
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urbor, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Creatures (14):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (24):
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Mox Diamond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

[sdematt]

Did you guys see, we made it to Third place! Mind you, look at the screwed up decklist:

3 Mox Diamond
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
3 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
1 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas


Frankly, I'm pretty sure it actually doesn't have 6 Wastelands or 3 Plagues main :P. But, you get the general idea :P

I'm going to ask for DTB status. Also, this person must be reading our thread or great minds think alike: one of each basic, Elspeth, etc. Hooray us!

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

@ sdematt

I agree, that list must be messed up. I did not see a S/B either. I knew our decktype had the potential. I'm sure a tweak here and there is required to wrap up a first place finish though. With that said . . .

@ Thrun, the Last Troll

4cc, but I see this card as a 2-of finisher. Thoughts?

[jazzykat]

I tested with this deck over the weekend and I also keep looking at the current SCG results and tournament reports. A lot of reports against the rock go like they resolved vial and won, or they didn't get down a vial and I stomped them because my dudes are better than theirs.

So what happens if we actually play our own vials. We can cut the diamonds, drop the flex deed, gerard's verdict or whatever, maybe cut down a land or two. Then we can add in either BoP, Noble Hierarch, or Elve's of the Deep Shadow, to boost our mana/fix it or try out Tideholowsculler, Mother of Runes, Pridemage, or Vampire Nighthawk.

With a vial we would always have the right color of mana to cast the creature (Just like diamond provided) and would free up our mana to fire off disruption/removal while the vial dropped dudes.

I'm going to try this if I have a chance. I'm interested to know what you guys think.

[Hanni]

I tested with this deck over the weekend and I also keep looking at the current SCG results and tournament reports. A lot of reports against the rock go like they resolved vial and won, or they didn't get down a vial and I stomped them because my dudes are better than theirs.

So what happens if we actually play our own vials. We can cut the diamonds, drop the flex deed, gerard's verdict or whatever, maybe cut down a land or two. Then we can add in either BoP, Noble Hierarch, or Elve's of the Deep Shadow, to boost our mana/fix it or try out Tideholowsculler, Mother of Runes, Pridemage, or Vampire Nighthawk.

With a vial we would always have the right color of mana to cast the creature (Just like diamond provided) and would free up our mana to fire off disruption/removal while the vial dropped dudes.

I'm going to try this if I have a chance. I'm interested to know what you guys think.

If The Rock variants start running 4 Vindicate 3 Deed, Vial will be much less of an issue (and on the play, 4 Thoughtseize).

Otherwise, Vial is not meant for this deck. To properly use Vial, you need to have a large threat density. Once you increase the threat density to such a degree, you are no longer playing The Rock. Don't get me wrong, the deck has plenty of good creatures in green, white, and black to fill the density up. Like...

Mother of Runes
Tarmogoyf
Qasali Pridemage
Dark Confidant
Tidehollow Sculler
Stoneforge Mystic
Knight of the Reliquary
Terravore
Doran, the Siege Tower

The problem with this, is that you have to cut control elements to increase the threat density. At that point, I'd question why splash black over blue, since blue generates better tempo (in this sort of shell) than black does.

[Dzra]

I think we have too few creatures to make full use of Vials. Successful Vial decks are usually packing 20+ dudes.

edit: lol a little too late. What he said ^

[jazzykat]

If The Rock variants start running 4 Vindicate 3 Deed, Vial will be much less of an issue (and on the play, 4 Thoughtseize).


The problem with that, is that you have to cut control elements to increase the threat density. At that point, I'd question why splash black over blue, since blue generates better tempo than black does.

1. Dark Confidant
2. Dark Confidant
3. Pro-active disruption, while you drop dudes off vial. You aren't even going to wait and see if they develop their game plan you are going to play disruption and creatures at once. That's pretty powerful in my book.

In fact, I would argue we might be able to come up with Vial Eva or something, but instead of using Dark Ritual we use vial and creatures to create disruption.

You definitely do need about 20 creatures to get good mileage out of vial. I want to use the rock as a basis and then see if I can find creatures that provide spell like abilities (Pridemage, Sculler, Eternal Witness) to use it as a pseudo reusable engine.

[Hanni]

1. Dark Confidant
2. Dark Confidant
3. Pro-active disruption, while you drop dudes off vial. You aren't even going to wait and see if they develop their game plan you are going to play disruption and creatures at once. That's pretty powerful in my book.

In fact, I would argue we might be able to come up with Vial Eva or something, but instead of using Dark Ritual we use vial and creatures to create disruption.

How does Dark Confidant generate better tempo than blue does? Blue has free countermagic; the opponent spends their mana on playing spells, you pay 0 mana to counter said spells, generating alot of tempo. Dark Confidant is slow; he does nothing the turn he comes into play (besides being a pathetic 2/1 body), replaces himself on the first upkeep (so he cantrips), and doesn't start generating hard card advantage until after that. I'm not denying the power of Confidant, but Confidant is much better in a deck built around control elements (discard, LD, removal) than a deck built around tempo (Vial).

What's the right mix of proactive disruption and creatures, and how is proactive disruption better than free disruption?

You cannot aggressively Wasteland after you drop a turn 1 Vial if you are spending your resources hardcasting BB spells. How much disruption do you expect to be able to realistically fit into the deck, without making Vial suck because you don't run enough creatures for it? Merfolk runs 20-24 creatures (24-28 if you count Mutavault), Goblins runs 33 creatures, and my Vial Bant deck runs 25 creatures. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for disruption spells.

I can see what you mean by wanting to run disruption on bodies, using guys like Sculler and such to replace Hymns and such. Maybe if you ran no sorcery/instant disruption at all and relied completely on a disruptive creature base (similar to old school Fish), it could work. It's still not The Rock, though.

[Dzra]

If you were going that route, then you could try stuff like Tidehollow Sculler, Mesmeric Fiend, Ravenous Rats, Corrupt Court Official, and such. Maybe combine that with other enter the battlefield tricks, but it seems a bit on the jank side of things. I'd be more inclined (and I am) to work with Tidehollow Sculler in the usual shell. I'm going to try it in place of Thoughtseize first, then Gerrard's Verdict if I don't like that.

[jazzykat]

Regarding DC you are right. He is awesome, not tempo.

Regarding vials then the deck isn't the Rock anymore- agreed.

I see vials as a vehicle to circumvent CB and gain tempo that you lose when casting disruption. All this can be accomplished with superior creatures and serious removal.

I don't know if the idea is good but when green and taxes is some how doing well I feel like we need to try.

[Dzra]

I'll give you that. Green and Taxes was a bit of a surprise, but if you think about what creatures you get in Green and White, it's not so far off. Tarmogoyf and KotR are the biggest beaters around, you get Mother of Runes, and the great all purpose removal in the form of Mangara + Karakas. Pridemages are great utility for Counterbalance and opposing Vials. I think you should start off there and add in Tidehollow Scullers and Dark Confidant rather than mess around much with a Rock shell. Maybe Thoughtseize to give yourself more t1 options. You'll probably have to give up on the Wasteland/Vindicate tempo plan but maybe Mangara will prove more versatile than I'd think.

[dyzzy]

Also, this person must be reading our thread or great minds think alike: one of each basic, Elspeth, etc.
I'd like to point out I came to the same conclusions completely independently of this thread as well, so... :tongue:

[ZeinVoncy]

New Mechanic: Living Weapon

New post-Deed material? I'm liking the way this new set is coming out, I'm sure there will some kind of potential that we'll be able to use.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I think that the vial version of the rock is definitely viable and can be a powerful deck. I'm pretty pumped about Thrun, but not for this deck. I see thrun as a good beater for a control deck. It's really difficult to kill and eats goblins/merfolk/nacatl's all day. It is just not enough for our beloved rock build however. It could be a possible sideboard option if you're having problems with dedicated control matchups though. The currently spoiled living weapon sucks. The mechanic seems really great especially in a stoneforge mystic build and can be quite powerful in possibly the rarer equipment that have this ability.

Rav rats, mesmeric fiend and corrupt court dude all seem far too weak to even be considered playable. Even in a deck that setup to abuse them.

[ZeinVoncy]

I'm pretty pumped about Thrun, but not for this deck. I see thrun as a good beater for a control deck. It's really difficult to kill and eats goblins/merfolk/nacatl's all day. It is just not enough for our beloved rock build however. It could be a possible sideboard option if you're having problems with dedicated control matchups though.

Why do you feel that it's not enough for our deck?
IMO - It's a threat that's VERY hard to remove, is a decent size, and can live through a huge Deed blowout. Yes it's 4cc, but he would be considered a late game drop. Even on T3-T4, he'd be pretty good. I feel he would be a great 2 of. Other then Perish, what response would ppl have from him other then playing a bigger dude?

[2Rach]

Did you guys see, we made it to Third place! Mind you, look at the screwed up decklist:

3 Mox Diamond
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
3 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
1 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas


Frankly, I'm pretty sure it actually doesn't have 6 Wastelands or 3 Plagues main :P. But, you get the general idea :P

I'm going to ask for DTB status. Also, this person must be reading our thread or great minds think alike: one of each basic, Elspeth, etc. Hooray us!

-Matt
I'm the guy. I'll post here to correct certain things when I can get to a computer. I'm on my phone right now. How I wish I could run 6 Wastelands.

[Hanni]

Why do you feel that it's not enough for our deck?
IMO - It's a threat that's VERY hard to remove, is a decent size, and can live through a huge Deed blowout. Yes it's 4cc, but he would be considered a late game drop. Even on T3-T4, he'd be pretty good. I feel he would be a great 2 of. Other then Perish, what response would ppl have from him other then playing a bigger dude?

Playing a bigger dude, and that dude not costing 4 mana. Having an unremovable guy is great, but 4/4 isn't very big these days, and 2GG is alot of mana.

[sdematt]

2Rach you came in third? Excellent job! Did you guys split the Top 4 money beforehand and played for glory, or was money on the line?

When you can, let us know your matchups, stories, etc. We'd be interested in hearing them :D

@ Troll guy

May be interesting in a Rock control build. Seems very interesting, but it's not for a Junk list, so to speak. I'm still waiting for my Magic Invitational card so I can play it in Junk:

*Card Name* 1BWG
When *card name* comes into play, you may Thoughtseize your opponent.
When *card name* comes into play, remove target creature from the game. That creature's controller gain life equal to that creature's power.
3/4

Oh, how I wish...I'm pretty sure he'd be playable.

Also, the mods are discussing to put us into DTB. Their cabal has to have their meeting, but we should be getting moved soon-ish. Huzzah?

-Matt

[Hanni]

Well, Rock deserves to be DTB status, as it seems to put at least 1 person into the Top 8 at most large scale events. It's a pretty good deck.

[dyzzy]

Well, Rock deserves to be DTB status, as it seems to put at least 1 person into the Top 8 at most large scale events. It's a pretty good deck.

Specifically it's the "Dark Horizons"/Junk version of Rock that's putting up results. If it becomes a DTB, would this thread have to change to be specific to that build, or would someone have to start a new thread, or would it just be Rock in general?

[sdematt]

Junk IS Rock, so this thread would get moved.

In this thread we discuss all builds, not just the ones that are winning large scale tournaments. Everyone's included here :D

I would hope this thread just gets transferred so we don't lose the valuable discussion we've had here.

-Matt

[Hanni]

Well, I call my version Deadguy Rock, but it's what you would call Junk, I guess.

[sdematt]

Junk is considered the Aggro version of the deck, usually playing a discard package, and a suite of Goyf, Knight, Dark Confidant. If you're playing something like that, it's Junk. Playing something with Tombstalker, Eternal Witnesses, and is a little slower is more towards traditional "Rock."

-Matt

[Dzra]

Grumble Bear - BG
When Grumble Bear enters the battlefield, target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life.
2/2

Fixt! :)

Also, after messing around with Sculler for a bit, I'm somewhat disappointed. It has very poor synergy with Deed and I feel like Deed is an important card in the deck. I'll mess around with it a little more, but I'm also going to try out an Enlightened Tutor board and see where that takes me.

In terms of Tutor targets...

Anti-Tribal: Engineered Plague VS Dueling Grounds? Even though they perform different functions, having both seems redundant. I keep going back and forth on which would be better. Dueling Grounds might be stronger against Merfolk and Goblins, but Plague is still good against Goblins and is great against Elves.

Anti-Combo: Ethersworn Canonist VS Sphere of Resistance VS Rule of Law? Rule of Law is the hardest to remove but also the slowest to come down. Sphere can potentially slow you down. Canonist is the easiest to remove, but also helps put pressure on Storm. Most likely Storm will be able to bounce any of them, making Canonist superior. Thoughts?

[Rainbow Maker]

I went to the Scg tourney yesterday. I can't say i did phenomenally, but i didn't do horrid. I expected a lot of fish and gobos and my prediction turned out fairly well.

list
22 lands
4 wasteland
3 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 bayou
1 scrubland
2 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 bojuka bog

16 creatures
4 goyf
4 bob
4 knight
2 pridemage
2 mystic

22 spells
4 vindicate
4 swords
3 div top
1 deed
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn
1 jitte
1 sofi

sideboard
2 infest
2 engineered plague
1 dueling ground
2 teeg
1 duress
4 nihil spellbomb
3 krosan grip

match 1 0-2 u/g NO elves with intuition and vengevines.

match 2 u/b fish 2-1

match 3 tes 1-2

match 4 dragon stompy 2-1

match 5 mono u fish 2-1

match 6 zoo (this one pissed me off. I was waiting for an opponent and then i realized i had forgot some of my stuff at my last table. I have had some stuff of mine stolen during magic tournaments before. So i ran over to the table to grab my stuff and the round starts when i'm roughly 7 ft from the table. My opponent sees me. The head judge starts the round, then my opponent screams "judge." While he finishes screaming the judge sees me sit down and i am awarded a game loss for tardiness. I checked the clock and there had been less than 10 seconds on the clock gone. Can someone please correct me but i thought you get a gameloss at 3 minutes or later. If that is true i think i will file a complaint because he was rude to several people. I'll get into that later.) Basically I don't even play this match i mull into like 5 and i think i just sign 0-2 after like 4 turns his hand has double paths and lands and i'm just like fuck you little cunt asshole. I probably could have easily won but i just didn't want to play against this kid. This kid just made me want to drop

match 7 r/b goblins 2/0 (my favorite opponent of the day. He was so very nice and fun to play against. He had good jerky too.)

match 8 dredge 2-0

I end up getting like 35th or so. i think the top 32 won 50 bucks. i think 18th-37th all had the same record. You got to love tie breakers.

Looking back I had a lot of fun. I just wish i had maybe filed a complaint with several judges. Many were nice. However a good portion it seemed like 1/3-1/4 of them were very incompetent. I corrected judges several times and had to tell some judges they put a card in the wrong zone. One example was a friend of mine put a deed in the wrong game state. He sacced deed putting it on the stack. I think he thought the sacrifice of deed was not part of the cost. The non active player exiles relic, which should have exiled deed. I didn't see this but my friend that messed up and put it in the yard didn't think to exile deed nor the judges. Some spectator told 1 of the 2 judges that was incorrect and then the judge realized this and my friend was giving a warning. Yes the warning should have been given, but the judges should see this if the players playing the game don't. Also when i was playing Stompy there was a moon effect in play and my opponent had 3 city of traitors in play and he stopped the game and he didn't realize there were two magi of the moon in play. There were several other things judges didn't realize. The one that really pissed me off when LSV was playing the rock player that ended up beating him. they both had goyfs. Neither of them realized goyf was bigger than what he was marked. They attacked and got damage through with goyf. When they realized this, neither one of them was given a warning. This was really wrong imo. I feel at the very least they should have been given warnings.

[ZZZ]

In terms of Tutor targets...

Anti-Tribal: Engineered Plague VS Dueling Grounds? Even though they perform different functions, having both seems redundant. I keep going back and forth on which would be better. Dueling Grounds might be stronger against Merfolk and Goblins, but Plague is still good against Goblins and is great against Elves.

Anti-Combo: Ethersworn Canonist VS Sphere of Resistance VS Rule of Law? Rule of Law is the hardest to remove but also the slowest to come down. Sphere can potentially slow you down. Canonist is the easiest to remove, but also helps put pressure on Storm. Most likely Storm will be able to bounce any of them, making Canonist superior. Thoughts?

Plague vs Dueling Grounds: I think it depends on how many slots you want to dedicate to this. Dueling Grounds has the advantage that it just takes 1 slot in a tutor board (apart from the E-tutors). If you run Plagues you'll have to run more than 1 to be good however if you get 2 Plagues in play against Gobs, that's often a win. The downside to Plague is that Merfolk runs a lot of Lords so you will want to board in some more spot removal (next to the Plagues) as well.
In a tutorboard, I'd probably go with Dueling Grounds unless your meta is full of Goblins and Elves and doesn't have much Merfolk.

Combo: Canonist is the better choice imo. I would however diversify your hate if you run with E-tutor. I'd include Thorn, it slows down your discard as well, but it'll bother them more. If you get down 2 Canoninst, all they need is an Echoing Truth to go off.
Choke might also be worth a slot in an E-tutor board and it can come in against combo as well (it's not great against TES (decent vs ANT though) but better than a lot of other cards in your main).

[ZeinVoncy]

the round starts when i'm roughly 7 ft from the table. My opponent sees me. The head judge starts the round, then my opponent screams "judge." While he finishes screaming the judge sees me sit down and i am awarded a game loss for tardiness. I checked the clock and there had been less than 10 seconds on the clock gone. Can someone please correct me but i thought you get a gameloss at 3 minutes or later.

Reasons like this is why I do not like large scale events. I'm a pretty solid guy, I'd wait until the kid was in a parking lot and beat the hell out of him, if I didn't do it right away. I wouldn't want to be banned for 3 yrs for something immature like that. Though, would be gratifying.

@ Rainbow Maker

What changes would you make to the deck if you could go back to the same event? Anything over the top or impressive for you? What cards did you feel did not help much?

@ 2Rach

Look forward to the correct decklist. And hopefully any comments/reviews you could provide. Congrats on such a great turn out!

[2Rach]

DISCLAIMER: Very HUGE, almost incoherent post ahead. I also don't remember much of substance...


2Rach you came in third? Excellent job! Did you guys split the Top 4 money beforehand and played for glory, or was money on the line?
Thanks, I didn't fully realize that I went 7-0 after losing round one to get into top eight until later after losing in the top four, back in the hotel room.

Would they even cover it if we split? Weird if so. No, we ended up not splitting.



When you can, let us know your matchups, stories, etc. We'd be interested in hearing them :D
Unfortunately, my memory is very bad. At this point what I do remember of the games might just be melded together.



Here's the actual list.

Creatures: 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary

Other: 25
3x Mox Diamond
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
2x Pernicious Deed

Lands: 23
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard: 15
3x Engineered Plague
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Elspeth, Knight-errant
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Duress
1x Perish


Main Deck:
I've always respected Elspeth as a finisher in Legacy and I had Elspeth main. I deliberated in my head about the last slot or two, whether to be a third or fourth Vindicate, second Deed, an Elspeth or what. I wanted the second Pernicious Deed. It's just awesome or useful against so many decks; aggro, control, combo. It has its uses everywhere and is game-breaking a lot of the time, just like Elspeth, but it can get me out of a losing position more than Elspeth can, imo. Vindicate takes care of planeswalkers, helps against aggro and control. It just doesn't finish up the game like Elspeth does, but I don't want to hope I get that extra white or fourth mana source sometimes and it makes the land destruction plan more consistent if I decide to use another Vindicate. So going with more early game consistency and being able to answer threats easier, I went with three Vindicates and two Deeds and put Elspeth in the side for the control matchups and any other deck that I might need some raw power or extra attrition for.

I prefer the Inquisitions to the Gerrard's Verdicts main. A lot of the time people just discard irrelevant stuff instead of discarding that key card in their hand. It also gives me another turn one play which doesn't have me rely on Mox Diamond for that.

The triple basic lands are probably unneeded. It was brought about by me facing Dragon Stompy or Thresh type of decks a lot and those have put a fear in me, but 1-2 swamps and 1 plains, with Moxes should be enough. All day there were times I was wishing that forest was a swamp or Bayou, which I'll most likely switch to. The basics you really need are for your disruption and removal.

I have a love/hate relationship with Mox Diamonds. Sometimes they're fabulous and other times they're worse than a basic land. But they're needed with goblins getting so popular, and to a lesser extent merfolk.

Sideboard:
Engineered Plagues were a nod to not wanting to chance the goblins matchup. I also had a desire for me to try it against merfolk but was still hesitant to do something different not knowing what to expect in such a large tournament.

Gerrard's Verdicts and Duress were for the control and combo matchups and the off chance I'd meet a burn deck.

I went with Nihil Spellbombs since they are Relics for black decks. Along with the usual suspects of Dredge or other graveyard based suspects, they also have applications against Stax for Crucible as well as Smokestack, Show and Tell Emrakul Annihilator to draw a card or remove the graveyard they would recycle.

Deed, Perish, Diabolic Edicts were to supplement the anti-aggro package which might be there. Deed is just the versatile all-star that it always has been, Diabolic Edicts were general removal that also worked against Sneaky Emrakul and Progenitus being instant. Perish stacked with Diabolic Edict against the mentioned Progenitus and could help with Elves along with all the other popular green creatures such as Knight, Tarmogoyf, Hierarch, or other dudes.


----------------------------
----------------------------

Friday, I went over to Kevin Koga's place to then start picking up the guys one by one, but we had some time so I tested against his Show/Sneak deck. He suggested I try Karakas, and I added more Vindicates to see how they play compared to Pulses. Karakas main completely changes this matchup's dynamic. Show and Telling into Emrakul became a hindrance because I could drop Knight of the Reliquary or Karakas to completely undo the SNT or worse, and it limited Emrakul to being only Sneakable and relegated Progenitus, as underpowered as it is(lawl), to be the main finisher. Saved me once during the day, and if I payed attention it could have saved me more than that. Vindicates were also fan-basic-raping-tastic.

Saturday I had to trade and borrow for all the cards(3-4 Vindicates, Karakas, 3 Mox Diamonds, 2-3 Diabolic Edicts) or I wouldn't play. I got most and decided to enter the 5pm side event. Did terribly due to very awkward hands and draws. Infinite 3 Mox Diamonds all tournament. I was convinced by my tired friends to drop so I scoop my opponent into fourth round so he could possibly win a pack then headed back to the hotel room with my bros.

The morning of, on the way to the tournament, my carpool buddies were driving to the tournament joking how a religious friend, Caleb Neufeld(Ozymandias), always does well at tournaments because the Big Man's on his side. Also joking that they should convert to Judaism so they get some of the love.

When we get there I tried to figure out my final few slots in my main and side and filled out a decklist. Borrowed some Plagues, that Alex convinced me were good against merfolk and I wanted them against goblins anyway, and Edicts for the side from friends. One of which was Caleb. He just happened to bring Teffilin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teffilin) to the tournament site and asked me if I'd like to put Teffilin on and I said "yeah, sure, can't hurt".

I walk around the area hoping to find this fabled Taco Bell I hear so much about, get dejected because I don't find it and worry about my being at the player meeting/round 1 on time so I walk back. (3 Chewy bars, breakfast of champions!) But I find the kid from yesterday who I scooped to and am delighted to find out he got the pack. (SUCCESS!baby.jpg)

During my figuring out my mb/sb 10 minutes before 10am I ask Phil(socal judge that's here to help out) if I can just clump the card names together instead of having to put them in their sections(creatures/planeswalker, etc) and he says something along the lines of "well, it's there so it's easier for judges to figure out what the deck is, so if you don't think you'll do well don't section it out." I laugh. Nice jab, nice jab. Jerk. ;) lol

The player meeting seating gets posted and I head to my table. I'm waiting for everyone to get to their seats, seeing who's walking by, and I see Luis Scott-Vargas walking by the table and I think "cool" and then see him walk right up in front of me and sit down right across. Then I think "maybe I'll play him in the tournament" and I tell him "Honor to meet you!" and shake his hand, like the platonic groupie I apparently am. (Strong foreshadowing, and 100% true. Seriously.)

Round 1(Storm):
I played against Storm(mainstream, not sure which one, I just group them together mentally) 1st round, losing 2-0. The first game, after initial discard, I drew a bunch of lands and Moxes off Confidant and he beat me easily. The second not sure. I think he beat me quickly after one Thoughtseize or something. We played some practice games afterward in which I had to Gerrard's Verdict myself to discard a land to gain life to fight his Warren tokens. He gave me advice during the games, nice guy.

Sideboarding:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed
Probably should have put in a couple of Engineered Plagues.

Round 2(Goblins, maybe):
I think the 2nd round was against Goblins. He kept a good hand but my double Thoughtseize on his good goblins while I drew a second swamp for my two Hymns to finish his hand off took care of the game. The second game had me Thoughtseize away something while he sacrificed a Lackey to Cabal Therapy for a Stp instead of an Engineered Plague, when I had no white mana, only a swamp and wasteland, while he has a wasteland in his hand. I play my Wasteland and he Wastes it which I then take out his Badlands with(he might have had a mountain on the field too). I end up drawing 2 lands over the course of 2-3 turns while he draws more Lackeys and Mogg War Marshal and then I drop the Plague and quickly win from there. He said afterward that he got rid of the StP because I just needed one specific land instead of 2 for the Plague since he had his Waste and that he was hoping to draw relevant creatures to use Lackey with while I was stumbling.

Sideboarding:
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek (-1 and -1 Vindicate maybe, to help curve)
-4 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Engineered Plague
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Diabolic Edict

Round 3(Show and Tell/Natural Order):
Third round was against a friend of a friend I carpooled with. He was running a build of his own of Show and Tell/Natural Order type of deck. I think the first game I got first turn Confidant(I think) while he got a second turn Emrakul and I had Knight to drop but only a Horizon Canopy and a swamp(maybe) so I couldn't search for Karakas. But, seeing as how I'm a master of masters, I rip Karakas, send Emrakul to his owner's hand and attack for 5. (Which is a mistake, since if he was able to build a Sneak Attack turn, it would have wrecked me. I realize this when I activated and announced the Karakas ability.) After a while of stuff I can't remember he drops a Progenitus, but at that point he's so low on life he can't attack me because I kill him with a huge Knight. (Where I note that I would have lost if I didn't attack for 5 earlier because of bouncing the eldrazi) I later draw a Diabolic Edict and win. The second game I made him discard cards but he topdecked a Natural Order for Progenitus and won shortly after. I tried to look for Diabolic Edict, fetched, and saw they were both on the top of my library. Fail. The third game I was a bit color screwed with a swamp, waste and Top, but I had started with 2 Thoughtseizes and a Diabolic Edict, drew the second one shortly, along with lands to play spells and won a bit later somehow. Two 8/8 Knights of the Reliquary I think. Guess I run Progenitus too.

Sideboard:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Pernicious Deed
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Perish
+2 Diabolic Edict

Round 4(UW Countertop or Landstill, maybe):
The fourth round. Thinking...thinking... I think it was some weird UW(/xx?) Countertop or Landstill with Peacekeeper and Trinket Mage. Don't remember anything but asking him why he mained Peacekeeper and if he had Trinket Mages(which he had but I didn't see). I beat him.

Sideboarding:
Probably (I remember keeping 1 swords in for his Peacekeeper or a surprise Dreadnaught for quicker removal just in case)
-3 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Something else
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed


Round 5(WUR Bomberman I think it's called):
Fifth round was against one of my carpool buddies, Alex(PanderAlexander), with his WUR Painter and the 2/4 guy w/ LED for infinite mana and other shenanigans deck. So many socal bros I know played against other socal bros during the day. Pretty shitty considering we're a small group. We roll two six-sided dice, with me getting a 9 and him getting an 8. Shuffle up, present, and a judge decides to deck check us. He has infinite Asian cards and I guess they were thorough checking the sleeves because they gave me a warning on them pointing out a few sleeves in the sideboard that weren't fit for play, so it was 10-15 minutes before they came back. Unfortunately, he forgot the results of the dice roll. After a minute of trying to convince him I won the roll, he lets up since we're friends. I end up winning the first game but it takes a while. During sideboarding I take a little extra time because I had just thought of an unorthodox way for me to sideboard and I don't think well under pressure so I keep counting and looking at what cards I can take out or put in. He thinks I'm stalling/Saitoing. We get the second game under way and finish close to our extended time getting called. I don't remember the games except very vague card situation mental photographs. Big props to PanderAlexander for trusting me, I wish we could have a video of that moment so it would erase that 1%+ of doubt that is probably on his mind.

Sideboarding:
Don't remember much. I cut a bunch of creatures and other stuff to overload on disruption.
I know I added Edicts and Deed and took out a couple Goyfs or more. Did other stuff too, swapped 7 cards... Hard to remember.

Round 6(Goblins):
Next round is either against another goblins deck or a GWb Green and Taxes deck. Let's go with goblins. I don't remember the first game, I think I got a quick start removing his 1st-turn Lackey with Stp and then got some beats going, winning the game shortly. The second game he gets screwed on one mountain for most of the game, I Deed away some goblins and his Vials so he gets stuck on 1 mountain, 2 wastes, 2 ports while I have plenty of lands and a Mox. He can only play 1 goblin per turn so he's really slowed down. I think I Seize a Ringleader, he whiffs on another, then gets good on a third when it's late. I think I win by slowly attacking and leaving blockers with a Knight, a Goyf, a Confidant, and a Maze. Keep in mind there's a strong possibility I'm combining all the goblins games from both matches. Though I know one thing for sure, I never drew Engineered Plague against him.

Sideboarding:
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek (-1 and -1 Vindicate maybe, to help curve)
-4 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Engineered Plague
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Diabolic Edict

Round 7(Green and Taxes /black):
The seventh was against the aforementioned GWb Green and Taxes deck. He was splashing for Dark Confidant and maybe Edicts and other stuff in the side. He beats me the first game with Mother protection on Teeg and Pride Mages with Dark Confidant card advantage. The second I beat him with Deed clearing I think. The third game I(or his deck) whittle him down to two Vials and infinite lands, but he draws Mangara into Sword F/I then Teeg but I somehow slow him down and then beat him with other stuff. I make a major mistake here that could have really cost me the game which I'll speak about later. But yeah, bad memory is bad.

Round 8(Supreme Blue Countertop):
Before standings come, our local Math Planeswalkers(get it, Math Wizard? Math Planeswalker? Yeah, I just typed that) figure out due to my likely crappy tiebreakers that I'll have to play it out. The standings go up and 'lo and behold, I have to face and beat one of the best. You can read about that on SCG.com.

Sideboard:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed

Top 8 Quarter Finals(UWb Mystic Merfolk):
Can't remember much(it's my theme).

Sideboard:
-4 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Engineered Plague
Not sure where I stand on Plague against Merfolk, didn't do much. Need to tes with multiples.

Top 8 Semi Finals(Supreme Blue Countertop):
You can also read this round on SCG.com

Sideboard:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed



These were the names of my opponents, I don't know what deck they belong to except Alex, here's a try:
Justin Kame (Storm, round 1)
Robert Lloyd (Goblins I think, round 2)
Try(?) (UG Show/Tell/Natural Order, round 3) - not sure on the name
Joshua (UW Control, round 4)
Alex (WUR Bomberman, round 5)
Phillip Yam (Goblins I think, round 6)
Allen Brett (WGb Green and Taxes I think, round 7)
Luis Scott-Vargas (Supreme Blue Countertop, round 8)
Michael Hetrick (UWb Merfolk, quarterfinals top8)
Gerry Thompson (Supreme Blue Counterbalance, semifinals top8)

I probably got the rounds wrong and for that matter the names of the earlier white opponents that I faced mixed up. They were the earlier Goblins, the UW control, and the Green and Taxes dudes.






I made a good amount of mistakes on the day, after the games were tilting in my favor I would become a bit careless or in bad situations I would just plain miss something.

In one instance, I was facing a Green and Taxes splash black list with Teeg and Mangara. In other words, did you know Karakas has an ability that sends legends back to its owner's hand? That's what a judge(Phil) working the tournament that judges the events in socal said to me after I beat LSV. I looked at him and laughed misinterpreting the joke, because he has that kind of sense of humor. He then proceeds to explain my idiocy. I laugh out loud at myself.

In another I'm facing goblins, I think the latter goblins round, I run Mox Diamond out, discard a land, and then play and crack Pernicious Deed. Keep it down, don't laugh so hard! It's 1:30am here.

In the last round and first game against Gerry in the top 8, facing 2 Goyfs, Clique, JaceMS, a few cards in his hand against my Goyf and maybe Bob and/or Top with lands and another Bob in hand and at low life I scoop, and right when I do I realize my semi-out. Pernicious Deed. I look at the top of my library before I sideboard, and guess what fucking card is there? Pros don't even think to scoop when you have an out in your deck. Next-level play. In the words of a religious man I know; fuck my life.

The second game, the turn I scooped I played a Deed I drew last turn. An old acquaintance that lent me a couple Vindicates for the tournament told me that I should have baited out the Counterspell in Gerry's hand so I'd have time and a chance of resolving another if I happen to draw it. Very good advice, I was just thinking of trying to get hand disruption but completely blocked out the fact that CounterTop takes care of anything I could do in that regard. Come to think of it, I think the board position in the last paragraph is actually from the second game.

Sideboarding against Luis and Gerry was wrong, and that UW Control deck too. I should have done:
-3 Mox Diamond
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed

I don't need the acceleration against these decks and they won't destroy or generally screw my manabase up. Extra removal, despite Counterbalance frailty, would have been better than any Mox. Maybe take two more StPs out for Nihil Spellbomb just to cantrip into more relevant spells.


In my defense, I had only 4 McChickens and 4 Chewy bars to eat along with a little water throughout Saturday and Sunday until after the top 8. (3 Chewies on Sunday) Yeah, really loose excuse.

My 90-100% self would have slapped me HARD after seeing these mistakes. Taking away from this ridiculousness, I would say I definitely need to take a few extra seconds to think situations and plays out more and eat consistently(not empty calories) for energy. Oh, and don't scoop, don't ever scoop. I've said that to many people and should have taken my own advice. There's no point in scooping unless you're low on time and need it. If it's going to end in a turn or two might as well take the extra 1-2 minutes and give your opponent a chance to make a mistake or for you to realize you have a solution to the problem.

Another thing that really rang true throughout the day and coincides with my past experiences is that you really should focus on one game/one match at a time. My first major tournament, a regionals, I joined "just to have fun" after a friend offered a WB Tokens deck when I had no actual experience with it but kept up with Standard happenings. I didn't really care about results and I ended up going 6-2-1 getting 22nd(out of 200+ people) going one game at a time, where if I had more experience I might have been able to beat the 5cc control that beat me, having heard that it's supposed to be a good matchup, to be able to get a chance for top 8 with 2 swiss rounds left. SCG Tournament day I was continuously consciously pushing myself to "just focus on the current game" even after I lost my first round and it did wonders. (I even did a Saito slap)


Props:
All the dudes that came from Socal. Some of you guys made top 32, awesome.
Kevin Koga
Alexander Kwan (PanderAlexander)
Todd Idashkin
Caleb Neufeld (Ozymandias) (Got 14th this time, and 12th in SCG Los Angeles last year)
Jacob Kory (rukcus)

Meeting Luis Scott-Vargas
Beating Luis Scott-Vargas


Slops:
My horrible mistakes
Not name dropping our favorite Los Angeles area store Knight-Ware. SUCH FAIL. I even planned it right before the top 8 started but then totally blanked on it.
The ratings dip that all my opponents that I beat got. Really sorry about that.


Wow, I was out of control with this post. Sorry to those who started at age 25 turned 40 after having finished reading it. Was just going to do a very basic summary of my matchups and no report, so much for that thought.


P.S.
If any guys I know or guys I played against see this and see errors(as I'm sure there are), please post or pm and correct me.

[Rainbow Maker]

congratulations 2rachthe changes i would have made to the deck if i had known i wouldn't play 1 countertop... I think i would have dropped both mages. Mage is good, but he's pretty bad against tribal and combo. I found inquisition a life saver. Against the mono u folk, i had a bob in play after stabilizing. Bob put me to 3 or 4 after getting these flips. infest, infest, knight, (i thought he had a submerge so i played a fetch and didn't crack it... it saved me the game.

Throughout the whole day i had wished for an opening inquisition. I think i would either drop 1 or 2 pridemages to add maybe a thoughtseize or two. I might just keep pridemage as a 1 for versatility. A lot of people look at the list and probably discount mystic as much too slow. She won me a lot of games. even just topdecking a sofi or jitte with a bob was amazing. Yes i dis play against a lot of tribal, but it really changes the gamestate. I was overall very happy with the list. I mulled in most of my games in matches. I only think there were 2-3 games i kept a hand of 7. Also against the folk decks i mulled to 5 on game 2 and 3 against both decks.

I loved the sideboard. The infest and plagues seem out of place. But i sided infest, plagues and grounds against most decks.
I'll write a little more indepth report later today probably.

[Rainbow Maker]

nges i would have made to the deck if i had known i wouldn't play 1 countertop... I think i would have dropped both mages. Mage is good, but he's pretty bad against tribal and combo. I found inquisition a life saver. Against the mono u folk, i had a bob in play after stabilizing. Bob put me to 3 or 4 after getting these flips. infest, infest, knight, (i thought he had a submerge so i played a fetch and didn't crack it... it saved me the game.

Throughout the whole day i had wished for an opening inquisition. I think i would either drop 1 or 2 pridemages to add maybe a thoughtseize or two. I might just keep pridemage as a 1 for versatility. A lot of people look at the list and probably discount mystic as much too slow. She won me a lot of games. even just topdecking a sofi or jitte with a bob was amazing. Yes i dis play against a lot of tribal, but it really changes the gamestate. I was overall very happy with the list. I mulled in most of my games in matches. I only think there were 2-3 games i kept a hand of 7. Also against the folk decks i mulled to 5 on game 2 and 3 against both decks.

I loved the sideboard. The infest and plagues seem out of place. But i sided infest, plagues and grounds against most decks.
I'll write a little more indepth report later today probably.

[brianw712]

What do you guys think of Green Sun's Zenith? (Check it out in the MBS spoiler if you haven't already.) Might not be that applicable in the Dark Horizons build due to limited threat density, but this card is a godsend for aggro versions of The Rock. Serves as Tarmogoyfs/Knights 5-8 if you need more fat, can get Qasali Pridemage if you need arti/enchantment removal, can grab Gaddock Teeg against combo, and can even accelerate via turn 1 Dryad Arbor. The versatility is just amazing.

[Rainbow Maker]

it's kind of expensive and isn't CA. for searching up a knight you could pay the same amount of mana and drop elspeth. I think i would much rather have an elspeth as elspeth is hard to remove and is a serious threat.

[2Rach]

Regarding DTB and this thread:
These days "Rock" is way to vague to have a real definition. Anything that's BG with/without a splash is considered Rock these days. Junk is the deck that's top 8ing a lot, and while it would be bad to bury the discussion here, the DTB deck's thread(In this case Junk) shouldn't be muddied by discussion of strategically different decks. A new thread should be made focusing on the Junk variant if it's to be a Deck to Beat.


Man, couldn't MBS come out before this tournament?! Thrun would have rocked control's house! Definitely going to test it SB and wouldn't be surprised to see it in some other deck mained in the future.

Green's Sun Zenith is a good card and has potential in Legacy, but it's not for this deck. Some other deck focusing on a creature-heavy toolbox approach would be best, in my opinion.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Thanks 2Rach for the awesome report. I really enjoy the thoroughness even though you have a lot of "i don't remember" spots. In the end, do you think E. plague is worth running in the board. I haven't been playing it because it really is only good against goblins, and i guess it is pretty good against elves. Merfolk is the bigger threat though and I'd want something that is a little more relevant here, possibly edict/smother/ghastly demise or even path. The goblins match seems to be pretty much in our favor anyways.


So a couple weeks ago I ran the Titan Rock list at my local legacy tournament. I went undefeated in the 4 rounds swiss and lost in the top 8 to landstill. It seems dedicated control decks are a bit problematic, and I had a few beers and a jager bomb in between rounds that didn't help me play any better.

3 Sun Titan
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura Tribe Elder

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unearth
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ghastly Demise

24 Lands (don't feel like taking time to break it down but i'm sure you can figure it out)
- 2 waselands

I beat a goblins, zoo, death and taxes and some wanna be dreadstill deck. I plan on attending SCG open in indiana and haven't decided on a list. Current scope of the meta shows that there will be lots of tribal aggro and a good amount of counterbalance. I don't know about you guys but I don't feel like all the tribal aggro matchups are that great, even post board. Counterbalance matchup is okay, but I want something that's amazing against these decks. So it's really looking like I'm gonna start working on this titan rock list a lot to try and make it competitive. It has a fairly easy time against creature based decks and while I haven't played against CB, it seems like that should be an okay matchup as well. (they don't play any 6 drops in their decks lol) If there's any of you out there that has some input to help me out with this list to help make it a bit more competitive, let me know, I really want to make this deck work. Then when you see me in the featured matchup on scg live you can say you saw it coming!

As of right now I'm gonna drop 1 eternal witness as it doesn't always have something relevant to bring back, and gonna drop an unearth for the same reason. I'm gonna try out running a list with 4 Veteran Explorers and the 4th cabal therapy seems like it's really needed. I've been also thinking it would be nice to have at least one more bomb to ramp into. Tombstalker seems like the best option, but it's antisynergy with the rest of the deck makes me not want to run it - though it does work well with deed.

thanks for your input!

[sdematt]

I beg to differ. Goblins is making T8, and it includes RG, RGB, and RB lists in that thread. Granted, I'm not saying that everything we discuss is relevant to one particular build, but we mainly discuss variants of the junk lists, with a few exceptions. Most of the time, we're all talking about tweaking our version of 4 Knight, 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf with Vindicate, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Swords, Top, etc.

All in all, nice report! I definitely know what you mean in being mentally tired when you don't eat right. Bring juice and some foods, you'll definitely need it for such a long, thought intensive day.

Also, got my BGS Scrubland in the mail, so I'll post my Rock deck when I get the chance.

-Matt

[RexFTW]

Why doesn't this deck play The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale instead of maze of ith? Is it a price issue? It is quite good against creature decks and synergistic with the mana denial gameplan I think.

[Rainbow Maker]

this is junk. It's an aggro control deck. It can win by two ways. Sheer CA of big beats. "Rock" builds try to draw out the late game. "junk" tries to end the game as fast as possible. We don't have as good of a late game as something like loam, jace or counterbalance. You get beaten in all of those scenarios. So for this reason you go ahead and play disruption. You throw the opposing player off of their game. When you do this you drop threats. So they need to draw into answers. Where as loam doesn't really care what happens they will just wipe it away with deed.

[sdematt]

You Maze your own creatures, not theirs (usually). Tabernacle has been used before, but it also ties up your mana, and doesn't hurt those decks as much as you'd think unless you run tons of mana denial. It's good in Stax and Lands because they can't pay.

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

The reason Maze has been a preference is that because of Veng a lot of people centered more on decks whoses strategy was to play control with 1 or 2 efficient beaters, hence Maze. Now that Veng has been banned, however, we should see a greater influx of tribal aggro (Gobs/Merfolk) as well as Zoo. In aggro builds such as mine, however, it might not be the best choice as I try and maximize my threat density each turn. In nearly every MU on every turn I pretty much max out my mana (with exception to reserved Wastes or Top) so having to pay an upkeep cost can slow my game plan down.

Forlorn Egoist

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I play tabernacle in the sideboard often. In the goblins matchup it can really do amazing things. The problem with running them in the main is that the decks that it is good against usually run Aether vial. They can tap out their lands to keep their guys and continue to plug away. Also like forolorn said every turn you're using up every single land that you have open at least for the first 5 turns. Having to pay for your creatures, even if it is one or two a turn will drastically hurt you more than your aggro opponent.

[FieryBalrog]

I just finished building the following list (some of it restricted by card availability... am not really buying cards at the moment, and traded for a lot of this):

1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Mox Diamond

4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top

I've been wanting to build this deck for a really long time - BGW is my fav. color combination- and I'm glad I finally put it together. Gonna take it for a test run whenever I get a chance. Good to see this deck's still doing pretty well in the New Meta. Congrats on the finish and sweet report, 2rach.

[jazzykat]

Just so everyone knows, I have ironed out some of the kinks for a Vial "Vile" Rock deck and will post it here tonight or when I next have some time. What vial does for this deck is make you practically immune to CB, Counterspells, LD, etc.,etc. (just like other decks) it also allows you to be ridiculously threat dense and pack spell like functionality in bodies.

E.g. in addition to Bob, Goyf, and KotR, I am runing MoR (second trump vs. creature decks behind jitte), QP (exalted naturalize/disenchant), and Tidehollow Sculler (Vendillion Cliquesque for free off vial). Sculler is a real beating for those not running red because you can normally pull their one piece of removal from their hand with it, or a leading Thoughtseize.

Your combo matchup get's much worse as your control and aggro matchups improve. Given that there are a lot of people playing CB/Top to keep combo in check right now, I am OK with that.

EDIT: Here's the list. It's pretty damn good. Don't ask me about matchups as I don't totally know. You only need 1 of any color of mana so it plays well without vial. Vial makes all color problems go away.

2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mother of Runes
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Duress

[makochman]

EDIT: Here's the list

I'm wondering about Mother of Runes. She will certainly improve your aggro matchup, but it seems that recently most decks which played her used either lots of equipment or Survival of the Fittest. Without equipment, the 1/1 body is not very relevant. I think I'm going to try that list but with Noble Hierarch in that slot. Theoretically Hierarch should be both beating and acceleration, which is what it's going to need against combo.

[ivanpei]

IMO with the printing of Green Sun's Zenith, this deck can make the leap back to Tier 1. I was fiddling with decklists for bant aggro and I felt that the deck could not abuse the zenith fully due to needing blue cards for FOW. The rock is a disruptive midrange deck that can fully abuse the zenith without worrying about blue count. Now a prelim list:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 KOTR

2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shusher (Or Teeq/finks, depending on you're meta)

4 Natural Order
1 Proggy
4 Thoughtseize
4 STP
3 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Thoughts?

EDIT:

I opened a thread for Zenith-Order type decks:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19772-Zenith-Order-%28GUW-GWB%29

[sdematt]

Vial seems fine if you're playing at least 20 creatures, then I think it's just fine.

I read somewhere that the new Sword is pro Green and Black, with the ability of untapping lands if it deals combat damage to a player. Seems good since it means we can lay out more threats in the second main, as that's usually all I want to be doing. Might be an interesting addition for a Stoneforge build.

Also, I did about an hour of playtesting against Merfolk today (U/B with Standstills, Perish, and Plague). I did alright, but the matchup wasn't fantastic. Much of the time if they get going, they just crap out too many guys for me to deal with. I tried playing with Moxen and not (using cards as either Moxen, or what I had them as originally). I know everyone is swearing by Moxes, but they didn't shine for me today, but neither did the slots that replaced them. Most definitely Dark Confidant is amazing in this matchup, as are Swords/Path. Having 6 Swords main was amazing when I drew them. Sometimes, he managed to Standstill twice, nullifying the massive discard I pounded him with early on, or drew double Perish in boarded games.

I tested a split of 2/2 Plague and Dueling Grounds, obviously making note when I wanted one to be the other. The main problem postboard with Dueling Grounds was a Wasteland taking out Maze, or Perish taking out my blockers and Coralhelm beating for 5-6. Not sure what the answer is, but some of the games weren't fun to play. I did like having Pulse, it was useful many, many times. blowing up multiple Coralhelms or Vials was insane, but Vindicate was also very good (albeit fragile to Cursecatcher one time, wasn't paying attention :P) today. I'll be doing 5-6 hours of testing against ONLY Goblins, Merfolk, TES, ANT, and Bant on Saturday morning, so I'll have more to report then. Until then, let's try to brainstorm some more builds/sideboard tech against Tribal, as I believe it to be the weakest matchup, in my opinion.

-Matt

[brianw712]

@ivanpei: I tried a build like that right after Zenith was spoiled. I had 3 Natural Order, 4 Knight, 3 Zenith, 1 E. Witness, and no Vindicates, and I still found that too top heavy. I ran Noble Hierarch as acceleration, but I still found that tribal decks like Goblins were too fast, and didn't really care about Zenith. I'm trying Zeniths in the board right now, for midrange matches where having extra Goyfs/Knights/Qasalis would help, and for combo, where it can search up Teeg.

[ivanpei]

@ Brian, thanks for your obsevations. In that case isn't having the Zenith as a llawonar elf awesome? Zenith's shining quality is that it serves as an accelerant if you're hand is too top heavy.

[brianw712]

Using Zenith to get Dryad Arbor turn 1 didn't happen as much as I thought it would. If I had a 1-land hand with Zenith, I usually mulled it, while I generally keep 1-land Noble Hierarch hands. If I had a 2-land hand with Zenith, I generally waited to cast Zenith to get fatties later on. The versatility of Zenith is a double-edged sword; nothing screams "I'm mana screwed" more than turn one Zenith for Dryad Arbor, since you wouldn't cast it turn one if you had enough mana. So I found that most of the time, Dryad Arbor got Bolted/Swordsed/Wasted before I got to use it. Also, Dryad Arbor only adds green mana, making it much harder to cast your turn 1 accelerant off of a basic forest (turn one forest-->Noble Hierarch is doable, turn one forest-->Zenith leaves you with only green mana). Although this is more important for my build than for yours, since I run 4 Qasali and 4 Tidehollow Sculler.

[ivanpei]

Agreed, but you definitely should be running out the zenith Turn 1. If it gets wasted, you just payed 1 mana to LD you're opponent, which is awesome. If if gets sworded, you only invested 1 mana. I agree that hitting green is pretty inefficient. Zenith is probably not as good in a 4 Qasali 4 Sculler deck though. But in my Mid-rangy rock list, its very very strong. You now have 8 ways to have 3 mana on Turn 2. IMO zenith is just amazing.

[Dzra]

I feel like Zenith is a dead end. In my opinion, the weak links in the deck are Mox Diamond, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Tarmogoyf, and Thoughtseize. What all these cards have in common is that they are not CA. That's not to say that they aren't very good cards in their own right. Of course they are, but these are where I feel we will be able to have the most improvement in the deck without simply scrapping the deck.

Mox Diamond is the best accelerator in Legacy but at the cost of card disadvantage. I don't foresee a better way to generate 2 mana on t1, so Diamond is probably staying.

Of those cards, Vindicate generates virtual CA, so it isn't so bad. It has a high mana cost though, so perhaps something will come along that gives more bang for it's buck. Maelstrom Pulse comes to mind, but Maelstrom Pulse's CA can be a toss up and it doesn't hit lands. If Maelstrom Pulse was target permanent other than a basic land it would definitely be up for consideration.

Swords to Plowshare is the best spot removal in the game, but it certainly generates no CA. It's cheap and you can do tricks swordsing your own dudes, but there's room to improve.

Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla creature. He's the most efficiently costed creature in the game and he's certainly a big beater, but he's just that. It'll take one hell of a creature to trump him, but of our three creatures, he's definitely the weakest link.

Thoughtseize is a very powerful card, but it has its inherent problems. CA is so important in Legacy because the majority of cards are such high card quality. If I Thoughtseize someone, I could be looking at anywhere from 1 to 3 game-altering cards. Thoughtseize is an excellent card, but it's still a one-for-one.

Anyways, I know some of you will disagree with me, but personally, when I look at a new card, I'm thinking to myself "Can it fill the same role as one of these cards and is it actually better than one of these cards?"

[ivanpei]

Rock decks traditionaly run Eternal Witness for CA. However a 2/1 body isn't very impressive by today's standards. Natural order eats witness up well but, that's inherently too clunky. IMO zenith does not make the rock broken, but it does many things. In my list, I play a single witness to tutor for. Zenith for witness does not solve the gas problem but it seems like a very strong play late game. Getting Natural order back and having a creature to sack to order is pretty good as well.

Zenith is just a very very good swiss army knife card. If you feel that CA is the main problem in your meta, I'd play dark confidants. The KOTRs in my list can easily be darkconfidants. Zenith is also just 1cc, so it's bob flipping friendly.You should see zenith as a bomb tutor for goyf, kotr, witness, pridemage that can be used early game as a llawonar elf. It doesn't scream broken. But it is extremely strong.

[Dzra]

I'm not sure why you'd ever want to fetch Dryad Arbor with Zenith though. Using Zenith t1 means you need a Green mana. In most builds, that means either a Forest or a Bayou. If you use a Forest that means when you fetch a Dryad, you'll only be ramping yourself into 2 Green mana, which is by far the most fringe color of the deck. If you use a Bayou/Savannah then you are begging for a Wasteland which would not only completely negate your ramping but would put you horribly off color. Your build isn't as Black dependent as most builds, but you are still begging for someone to come along and put you horribly off color. Mox Diamonds are nearly untouchable and even Nobles are harder to hit and tap for 2 relevant colors at least. I don't see what Zenith adds to the NO plan since NO is already a better "tutor effect".

[jazzykat]

To me, Zenith is a very interesting for a quick mana bump. The opponent can counter the zenith, or waste or remove the land but to me it is like an exploration on the exact turn you want it, the first. This deck really likes 2 mana on turn 1 (Via diamond) way more than 3 on turn 2 but it isn't terrible to be able to play around daze or throw a dude in front of lackey. Obviously when you have more mana it can become whatever you want it to be. Also, you can boost the cmc higher to dodge CB and can get cool CitP effect dudes as silver bullets. How any of this fits into the rock though is beyond me at the moment.

[Dzra]

Except a mana bump into double Green will get you nowhere. (Unless you basically scrap the Black idea)

Where I see Zenith being potentially useful would be in a tutorboard. Fetching Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, or Peacekeeper doesn't seem bad. Even without the card disadvantage, I'm not sure it'd be more powerful than Enlightened Tutor, but it certainly could be worth a shot.

[DragoFireheart]

Except a mana bump into double Green will get you nowhere. (Unless you basically scrap the Black idea)

Where I see Zenith being potentially useful would be in a tutorboard. Fetching Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, or Peacekeeper doesn't seem bad. Even without the card disadvantage, I'm not sure it'd be more powerful than Enlightened Tutor, but it certainly could be worth a shot.

The Green Zenith only gets green creatures.

[Dzra]

Ha. I guess reading is the first skill you need in Magic huh? ;p I guess that shoots the tutorboard idea.

Maybe it could find a place in GW aggro, but even then, I'm not sure why you'd run it over (or additional to) Natural Order.

[ivanpei]

Assuming you play a dual Turn 1, I don't see the problem of going double green. Green is the decks central colour. You need the double green for Natural order and Eternal witness (if you are playing her). I don't see why you won't want to play the Zenith. Being able to accelerate turn 1 into 3 mana on turn 2 has to built around sure. The deck will need to be build a different way. The trends I'm seeing are 2cc creatures like scullers, pridemages etc etc which are colour intensive and don't appreciate a llawonar elf on turn 1. However if you cut these for 3cc cards like more vindicates, KOTR, Eternal witness, you might have something to work with. the Vial/2cc centred versions of rock most probably will not want the Zenith while the 3cc centred versions will definitely love the zenith.

[Bignasty197]

Black is actually the primary color of most successful lists out there. You usually want to be hitting double black, not double green, on turn 2 for Hymn. The good lists I have seen also run Mox Diamond to hit 3 mana on turn 2. I'm not shutting out the idea of Zenith, but the options we already have are quite powerful.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I don't understand why you are still talking about zenith, that card is pretty bad to begin with, and even worse in the rock. It may have applications elsewhere, you'd basically have to build around it, but not the current rock lists.

Anyways on a different note I've got a short tournament report that I'd like to share. I played at local legacy tournament that had 51 players in it and I ended up in 9th with a record of 4-1-1 and some bad tie breakers. First here's the list, note that I also tuned it a bit to be better against a more aggro meta.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquare
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ghastly Demise

3 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle

Round 1 vs. a goblins/burn deck: This guy was playing a much homebrew style goblins/burn deck. It had lacky, ringleader, warchief and few of the other usual suspects, but he als played some tuk tuk thing that put out a 5/5 when he died, not sure what it's called. He also played goblin grenades and lightning bolts no aether vials, all mountains, no nonbasics. Game 1 I have no problem controlling the board and getting there with my dudes. Game 2 I keep what I think to be a good hand of 2 scrubland, 1 top, 1 ghastly demise, 1 swords to plowshare, 1 bob, 1 vindicate. I play the 2 scrubs and the top and hold back on bob for when i need it, or when I know that he has no bolt. On his third turn (he played first) he drops a blood moon followed by a turn 4 goblin warchief. After several turns of digging for any basic lands or even a mox diamond (i was holding onto a wasteland i drew, so i could pitch it to the mox) I fail to find a basic or a mox. His 2 damage a turn clock finally gets me down from 20 to 0, talk about bad luck. Game 3 by turn 2 i have fetched a basic swamp, and a plains and had a mox diamond in play while he has some dudes that just get killed, and on turn 4 drops a blood moon, lol.

sb in: 1 ghastly demise, 2 edict
sb out: 2 thoughtseize, 1 vindicate
1-0

Round 2 vs. g/w aggro: This is a friend of mine playing a GW aethervial aggro deck with stoneforge package. I won't go into great detail but we went back and forth all 3 games where we'd each have a creature out beating then the other would trump it or kill it. He eventually took it on game 3 because I failed to find a deed. In this matchup I really wished that I had at least 1 more deed to bring in. He ends up going undefeated the rest of the tournament and splits in the top 4, we decide to name his deck white bitches (stoneforge, KoTR, Mother).
1-1
sb about the same as above

Round 3 vs. Burn: He is playing the burn deck, the one that saw some SCG top 8's not too long ago. Game 1 he mulligans to 6 on the play, a single hymn follows by 2 tarms then a knight just barely get there for me game 1. Game 2 he gets what he needs and squeaks by with a fireblast to finish i kept 2 thoughtseizes in my deck and drew both which sat in my hand usesless. Game 3 double hymn and a duress nukes his hand with me still at 15 life. A walk in the park from there.
sb in: 3 Duress, 3 Extirpates, 2 edict
sb out: 4 Vindicates, 4 Thoughtseize
2-1

Round 4 vs. Countertop: This guy is a very solid player and I think he plays the deck that Gerry Thompson played at the SCG Open San Jose. I open first game with a turn 1 hymn to tourach followed by a turn 2 hymn, followed by a turn 3 bob that eats a sword, followed by a turn 4 bob and he gets there. Game 2 turns about to be pretty similar with a turn 1 hymn and 2 more bob's to follow.
3-1
sb in: 3 k-grips, 2 duress
sb out: 1 ghastly demise, 2 swords to plowshare, 2 deed

Round 5 vs. Reanimator: A friend of mine playing a reanimtor deck that seems okay, but I haven't really seen it play at all. After some discussion and checking out standings, we decide if we draw, we just have to both win our next round and both be in top 8 rather than only one of us make it, so we we draw.
3-1-1

Round 6 vs. White Weenies: This guy had a deck that was quite different. It was playing the white myrtr and serra ascendant along with a stoneforge package that had at least the following equipment : 2 sword of light and shadow, 1 sword of fire and ice, 1 sword of body and mind, and 1 jitte. I know he plays these because at some point he had all of them on the board at once. Game 1 I don't have a swords in my opening and he gets a sols on a serra ascendant early which i'm not able to answer and gets to 30 with a martr and wins with serra. I figure as long as I keep him off of a creature this should be an easy matchup. Games 2 and 3 were long wars of trying to keep a creature on board. In addition to his swords he brought in tariff (typically used for progenitus) which is able to kill a KoTR at some point. I eventually win due to all the card advantage from bob and deed. It was a long drawn out battle and i ended up winning in turn 3 of the last 5 turns allowed.
sb in: 2 ghastly demise, 2 diabolic edict
sb out: 2 thoughtseize 2 vindicate
4-1-1

After eveyone finishes, I find out I ended in 9th place, which is just outside of prize of course. A little upset but I guess that's the risk I take. My friend that I split with ended up in 8th, so at least he made it in. In the end the only thing that I'd really change is that random pithing needle in the sideboard. It REALLY needs to be deed #3. Thanks for reading.

[ivanpei]

I understand what you are getting at. The hymm, 2cc centred builds that are more sui-black with GW fatties will definitely not benefit from the zenith as you need the instant speed bump Turn 1 (mox is like a good dark ritual). I was referring to the slower GBw lists which slowroll with eternal witness, vindicate, pernicious deed etc etc. I think this is where the deck diverges. I'm not saying one build is superior over the other, they are just different decks.

IMO the 2cc centered aggressive versions are better against blue control, greedy manabases etc but worst against goblins, "quick" decks like zoo which empties their hands very quickly and have highly similar cards. The slower, more board controlling 3 drop centred ones are worse against blue control but better at taming quicker decks and grinding them out.

[sdematt]

After playing all Tribal and CounterThopter matches all yesterday, I've come to a few conclusions.

1) Tribal is a tough matchup, sideboard or not. I was definitely on the shy side of 50/50, especially since both Goblin and Merfolk builds I tested against ran sideboard Perish, which was annoying as hell.
2) Mox Diamond is VERY conditional. To keep a good hand with Mox, you need 2+ lands, Mox, and a two-drop. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I can't count the number of times I drew no Mox, Mox with few lands, lots of lands and no Mox. All in all, I'm still disappointed here. I did manage some Turn 1 Confidants/Hymns, but much of the time I was wishing they were my other flex slots.
3) We're low on creatures, holy hell. At times I'm REALLY wanting more beaters, especially against Tribal. Coralhelm Commander, I hate thee, screwing up my whole plan with Dueling Grounds. Massive sadface for you! Getting Perished also REALLY blows. It's not like you can't play out creatures either: you want to try and get there.
4) I always wanted more Deed. Always. Much of the time, 1 for 1 isn't good enough against Tribal, because they have more threats than you have answers. Enter Deed. Every time I drew Deed, I won the game. Plain and simple. Clearing away Vials and their board was amazing, and later in the game when they were out of cards and running off the back of 2-3 creatures and I was in topdeck mode, Swords was underwhelming (I mean, 1 for 1 was underwhelming). Having at least 2 Deeds main, albeit slow, is needed, I think. 3 Total wouldn't be a bad idea, for sure.
5) I really think Elspeth would be amazing, now that I've had the chance to think about it and play it in a flex slot. Having Confidant not fearing a Lackey/Manland/Cursecatcher is awesome.
6) We're really good against Jace based decks, especially with more Deeds. Vindicate/Pulse were exemplary. Die, you $80 bastard. We're really good except when we have Top + Knight going and can shuffle and dig 3 multiple times a turn and don't hit 1 of 8 answers. Sigh.
7) I hate freaking Goblin Ringleader. Seriously, clearing your board but you refill afterwards, and Haste me? Seriously, no love lost if that card died in a fire.
8) Path to Exile replacing Gerrard's Verdict is totally the right call. 6 Swords are way more amazing than mediocre hand disruption.

I did some converted mana cost calculations, and I thought I'd share.

In an average 2-drop centered Junk list, running Mox Diamonds, no Deed, but 1-of Elspeth, the average CMC of a card (not including lands in this calculation) is 1.85. Without Mox Diamonds, and 3 Deed in their place, CMC rises to 2.11. With 2 Deed and 1 EE, CMC goes down to 2.05. Just playing the numbers here and saying that Mox Diamond has still been underwhelming, and raising our CMC for more Deeds doesn't change it that much. Of course, you could add more 1-2 drops, which would make it even less, just using Deed as an example.

By the way, I just learned that possibly over 50% of my meta could be Stax at a large tournament. Pretty weird, huh? Not sure why we have so much Stax, but I think I'll play 4 Deeds in that tournament :D

-Matt

[Dzra]

After playing around with Dueling Grounds a bit I'm not sure if I like it. What happened to me at least was that it basically stalled the game to a halt. The Goblin player sat there building up cards in his hand and every now and then fetched a Siege-Gang and squeezed some damage through. Finally, I'm sitting at 9 life and have to do something so I Deed and wipe the board. His turn he plays half his hand, swings, and I die. I made an error here, but even so, the game was not in my favor even after landing Dueling Grounds t3 with Maze support. I'm not sure if Engineered Plague would have gotten me there better, but it might be something I'm going back to.

[brianw712]

6) We're really good against Jace based decks, especially with more Deeds. Vindicate/Pulse were exemplary. Die, you $80 bastard. We're really good except when we have Top + Knight going and can shuffle and dig 3 multiple times a turn and don't hit 1 of 8 answers. Sigh.

I'm curious, which 8 answers are you referring to? Are you playing 4 Vindicate 4 Pulse? If you're counting Deed as an answer to Jace, it's not, since it doesn't clear planeswalkers.

[sdematt]

I needed to clear away a Moat to be able to attack Jace, so 4 Vindicate, 1-2 Deed,1 Elspeth. Plus, I was exaggerating a bit. You get my point :P

-Matt

[JonBarber]

I got 10th place Saturday at the Vestal tournament (100+ players) with a match record of 5-2 and a game record of 11-4. I lost round 5 to new horizons and round 7 to RB goblins. I played Brad Nelson's exact 75 except switched the SB duress's to Gaddock Teegs. Gerard's verdict is stupid good, I don't understand why so many people have been quick to cut it.

[Rainbow Maker]

the problem with verdict is it puts you up to 10 slots of discard. so it is very likely that you will topdeck discard well after it has no purpose. also if i did decide to run more discard i think i would run more 1 cmc discard often. I am more interested in removing their quality cards rather than gaining straiight up CA.

[Dzra]

I think it depends on the MU. Against Goblins, I'd probably want the targeted discard to remove Ringleader or Matron. Removing Ringleader is giving you card advantage in that they don't draw 2-4 extra Goblins. Against Countertop, New Horizons, Burn, and probably Zoo, I'd want Verdict. You'd definitely want selective discard against NO decks or Dredge. Verdict is just awful against GY based decks.

I can see why 10 discard spells is good. I read somewhere that 11 of a card is the number that gives you the highest chance of getting exactly 1 of that card in your opening hand. So 10 discard helps insure you have t1/t2 disruption. I choose to run an extra Deed and an Elspeth in the Verdict slot. Both are still CA (even more so than Verdict) but of course at the trade off of being useless in the early game.

[sdematt]

It's a tradeoff. I'm running 3 Duress and 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the board, so discard against Combo isn't a problem. Much of the time when I drew Verdict, I wanted removal, so I'm running Paths. They could be Edicts as well, but for now they're Path.

-Matt

[Dzra]

Path is awesome. Especially when you bring in Engineered Plague. Edicts just never get there.

[sdematt]

Agreed, agreed.

I'm wanting to Run 3 Deeds total now. Much better than I had previously tested. Thoughts?

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i myself am running the full 4 deeds, 2 MD and another 2 in the SB and i have allways loved it till now

and i for my part am running quasali pridemage in your verdict/path-slot, even though i missed verdict initially, i like quasali a lot..... verdict has one thing i liked a lot... its almost hymn 5-6 and it happens often that you get 1st turn hymn, 2nd turn verdict or another hymn, this allmost cripples every opponent, but as of now i am quite fine with the extra versatility of quasali

[JonBarber]

the problem with verdict is it puts you up to 10 slots of discard. so it is very likely that you will topdeck discard well after it has no purpose.

If you sand bag 1 to 2 lands late game, when you draw a verdict, it becomes a +6 life gain, which can be huge with dark confidant. Therefore its never really dead.


Path is awesome. Especially when you bring in Engineered Plague. Edicts just never get there.

Path seems reallyyy bad. It makes your wastelands worthless, and doesn't solve any of the problems that edict is in there for (emrakul, progenitus, mongoose, iona, etc). Vindicates and swords should be all the spot removal you need, and edict is there for the sole purpose of hitting things you normally couldn't.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Jon, you know your shit. There have been plenty of times verdict myself has saved me. I still think it's the weakest card in the deck and prefer something a bit more versatile sometimes.

PATH IS REALLY BAD!! I could see people wanting to run it because it exiles vengevine, but that is no longer the case. You can bet this card will never see play in my rock list as long as I'm running wasteland in the same deck... doesn't make sense, you might as well play tectonic edge! I understand edict doesn't do the same thing so I really wouldn't compare it there, but my favorite alternative is Ghastly Demise. If you're not a fan of that, Doom Blade would be better than Path to Exile!


I'm running 2 deeds in the main now and at least a 3rd in the side. I really think it's the way to go because the decks that are really doing well now are AEther Vial decks, which deed just boss against. I've even thought about running the 4th in the board as well it is that good right now. I used to not even play this card in my 75, I preferred EE which is a turn faster. Now that the meta has slowed down a turn or two, deed is back on top of the game.

[2Rach]

Paths are good in the sb. You want it against Zoo(if you see it), Merfolk, Goblins and other decks like Bant. Only against goblins does the extra early land really hurt. The rest you're not really getting hurt by it or hurting Wasteland with it. I wouldn't suggest it maindeck since it hurts the LD aspect, but sb that's not one of your main options, you want it against creature decks.

[Dark Ritual]

There is the underrated ghastly demise and it seems to be always better than path. Sure it can't hit black creatures but that's why you have swords. I would play smother before doom blade personally since both cost 2 and smother hits everything relevant. Go for the throat once mirrodin besieged is released will be another very solid cmc 2 removal spell hitting practically everything and as a bonus it isn't terrible against affinity since it can hit disciple of the vault.

Gerrard's verdict is strong early and late game. I really like the card and like JonBarber said you sandbag 2 excess lands to discard to it to gain 6 late game to potentially make a lot of tempo. And while it is lackluster late game against aggro, against aggro control they can have 2 cards in hand late game to discard. The card is solid in every MU save the aggro mu except when you play it turn 2 or turn 3. Playing it turn 1 is sick as hell too. If they don't discard lands they discard business and if they discard lands well you gain life off of it giving you time to stabilize.

[sdematt]

I have much disagreement here. True, giving them a land in some matchups can be crap for tempo, but removing one of their creatures can be crucial. Like I said, I've found it (Verdict) to be lackluster in my meta, and so I'm running Path. I'm not opposed to running Demise, as it is REALLY good. Another problem: many black decks in my meta. Again, slight difference. I'm not saying don't run Verdict, as it depends on your meta. I'm saying I've hated it every time I drew it, so I've switched to Path for extra creature removal that doesn't rely on my yard.

Also, Wasteland seems terrible against Tribal. So far, hitting Mutavault is basically the only thing I've done (and the odd Dual if they splash). Good against basically every other deck, just been frustrating not being able to blow up lands at my choosing :P

-Matt

[FieryBalrog]

2 mana removal seems bad in this deck. Path isn't always great, but it is pretty good in some matchups that don't really care that much about another basic land (like Merfolk). Ghastly Demise is also pretty good, especially against tribal stuff.

[AggroSteve]

i tried ghastly demise as well, but i disliked it, simply because not being able to hit confidant screwed me a few times

i can see everyone's pro and cons for the addictional removalspell, the addictional discard, i for my part simply love quasali in this slot, just because it adds some beats to this threat-light deck with the plus of versatility (tried doran as well but was not satisfied with him, made me to slow because of a to high number of 3drops)

actually i think these 2 slots that give us that much of discussion strongly depend on the meta we are playing
is your meta comboheavy run the verdicts or targeted discard for cmc 1
tribal heavy i would say go for path or demise
aggro-control to controll, get extra beats

thats what i think

[deezy]

I currently run 1 enlightend tutor and 1 EE in the spots where verdict used to be.Along with the deed main I find that It gives me far better match up vs merefolk and zoo the tutor becomes either in a pinch and can be a divining top if you already have either....

My list
4 x KOR
4 x GOYF
4 x Dark confidant

4 x swords
4 x inquisition of kosilek
4 x hymm
4 x vindicate
3 x divining top

3 x mox

3 x bayou
2 x scrublands
4 x verdant catacombs
4 x marsh flats
4 x waste lands
1 x plains
1 x swamp
1 x forrest
1 x karakus
1 x maze
1 x bodjuka bog

Runs fantastic and the one tutor is perfect i cut a divining top and ran 2 tutors for awhile but cut back to one because of the importance of top and have found one tutor is seamless the way it works......

[Dzra]

I keep going back and forth between Dueling Grounds and Engineered Plague. Plague, is more aggressive but probably requires multiples. More Goblin players will be expecting Plague than Dueling Grounds. Dueling Grounds only can stall for so long because Goblins is such a versatile deck, so you better be able to get a fatty out and start punching through. Maybe running a second Elspeth again would be helpful?

I suppose, option 3 is that maybe I'm oversiding (I do that sometimes...) perhaps it'd be better to just board in some extra removal in place of Bobs and keep all of the disruption and try to kill them before they can get a board position.

[deezy]

oops left out thI currently run 1 enlightend tutor and 1 EE in the spots where verdict used to be.Along with the deed main I find that It gives me far better match up vs merefolk and zoo the tutor becomes either in a pinch and can be a divining top if you already have either....

My list
4 x KOR
4 x GOYF
4 x Dark confidant

4 x swords
4 x inquisition of kosilek
4 x hymm
4 x vindicate
3 x divining top

1 x enlightend tutor
1 x EE
1 x deed

3 x mox

3 x bayou
2 x scrublands
4 x verdant catacombs
4 x marsh flats
4 x waste lands
1 x plains
1 x swamp
1 x forrest
1 x karakus
1 x maze
1 x bodjuka bog

Runs fantastic and the one tutor is perfect i cut a divining top and ran 2 tutors for awhile but cut back to one because of the importance of top and have found one tutor is seamless the way it works...... e most important part of the list....lol

[deezy]

my board looks like this granted I dont have extirpate so that might make its way in at some point......

1 x ghostly prison
1 x ee
1 x volraths stronghold
2 x ethersworn canonist
2 x gaddock teeg
2 x tormods crypt
2 x nihil spellbomb
2 x diabolic edict
2 x tidehollow sculler


not alot of Gobs running around my meta so I dont have a ton of advice for that match up.....
mainly zoo,merefolk,some threshold and newhorizons types and combo that you see alot in my meta....

[sdematt]

Sorry I haven't been on for the past few days, school and such. But, I did manage to (basically) take down the local once-a-month Legacy tournament.

Firstly, my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate

After a long day or Archaeology and fueled by several cups of Timmy's, I was ready to go. I had surveyed the field and realized I should play the only deck I have together. Pairings are called, I put away the chaff and get ready to play. I jokingly say to Jason that I'll split Top 2 with him when we win. Then, I get paired against him. Shit.

Round 1: Jason playing Junk (non-Mox Diamond Version as well, almost identical list except more Elspeth, less Deed)

I keep a hand of land, Fetch, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Swords, Tarmogoyf, Path. I win the die roll, and Thoughtseize, taking a Hymn in a hand of Goyf, Bob, Steppe, Fetch, Bog, Hymn, Inquisition. He Inquisitions away my Hymn, I drop Dark Confidant next turn. He drops Bob, I Swords. I drop a Top and start gaining massive card advantage. He drops Goyf, which I vindicate. I drop a Goyf of my own, but I end up getting my Confidant Swords'd. We have a Goyf stalemate until I blow up his, and he mine. I rip Bojuka Bog against his KotR and land another Goyf. My small Goyf starts to get there before he lands another, along with Top. I rip Elspeth and swing for lethal.

In: 3x Extirpate (didn't want to cut anything for the Leylines at the moment)
Out: 1x Vindicate, 1 EE, 1 random.

I lose horribly to Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Hymn, and double Wasteland. I wasn't even in the game.

Board: Same

Game 3 I play first and rip apart his hand early on, revealing he only has CitP tapped lands in hand after a solid Hymn. I Wasteland his Scrubland he ripped and Extirpate it. My second Wasteland seals the deal after I land Bob, then Gofy, then KotR at 6/6. He concedes and we talk about Rock.

Round Score: 1-0
Games: 2-1

Round 2: Edward playing Mono G Elf combo

After attempting to hold in a Twilight joke, I keep a decent hand with Confidant, Goyf, disruption. I have no idea what he's playing at this point, but I know he beat Bant the round before. I had him on Tribal of some kind. All in all, he turn 4 Terastodons me. I die to a Dark Confidant reveal after a hefty attack. A last ditch Thoughtseize gives me new info: Natural Order combo. I lose, and pack up for game 2.

In: 4x Engineered Plague, 1x Pernicious Deed
Out: 4x Vindicate, 1x Hymn

I go Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn, Turn 3 E. Plague, killing 3 Elves. I land another Plague, but he Grips the first. I wreck his shit up with KotR. He can't get in the game since he can't get green creatures on board to Natural Order, I get there faster.

Game 3, he lands forest and passes. I Thoughtseize away a Winter Orb (wtf...), and he lands another turn 2. I die a little inside and play Confidant. I draw into Engineered Plague, and grind him out with Goyf. I lay a Deed later on to deal his fate.

Round Score: 2-0
Matches: 4-2

Round 3: Bryn with Canadian-ish Tempo Thresh

I had Bryn on Goblins, but apparently not. I win the die roll, and proceed to land a Top. He wastelands and passes. I play a fetch and crack it, and pass. He lands an Island. I land a Top finally, and I run out his Counters and land KotR. He doesn't see any Geese (thank God).

Out: 1x Vindicate
In: 1x Pernicious Deed (for Goose)

Game 2 he Stifles my fetchland, I get Wasted, etc. He can't hit threats, and I run 2 Goyfs and a Hymn through his seemingly infinite Spell Snares, finally landing a Goyf. He drops Goyf, I path. It goes back and forth, but I get Bob. I win shortly thereafter. Again, no Geese for him.

Round Score: 3-0
Matches: 6-2

Going into round 4, I'm the only 3-0, but my opponent won't concede, otherwise he won't get prizes. I offered to prize split, he declined. I've basically won, but we play it out. I wanted to play against Storm combo, but I got stuck with my most hated matchup: Merfolk.

Game 1 he overruns me and Wastes me 3 turns in a row. I can't get into the game, he seems to have infinite Counterspells.

In: None
Out: 4x Vindicate

We were talking here and I boarded out Vindicates for Plagues. Only after playing and losing did I realize that I had forgotten to side in. No wonder that game went horribly...We play a few fun matches after, and good times are had by all.

Overall:

6-2 regular
50/50 with Merfolk in the fun games.

Props:
Pernicious Deed doing a 6 for 1 on Merfolk, causing me to win in a fun game. Huzzah Deed! I think Deed is key in Tribal, albeit slow. One for one isn't as good here, sweep is necessary.

Tim Hortons coffee, you are delicious. I don't think I can play good Magic without you.

The Rock was busting the balls of my opponents, except when I drew absolutely nothing, or forget to side in cards...

Matt W coming in 5th with Kiln Fiend Aggro with Countryside Crusher and Spinal Villain. Destroy target Merfolk=tech?

Slops:
Not siding in cards in a crucial matchup due to not paying attention.

Playing a Rock Mirror. That's not fun. Whoever can keep Bob wins. Whoever has Top wins. Ugh.


Hope you enjoyed reading it!

-Matt

[JonBarber]

Whats your issue with merfolk? I particularly enjoy that matchup. Granted, playing with mox diamonds definitely gives an extra speed boost. As long as you can resolve a goyf or kotr, you really shouldn't have much of an issue. Save your removal for their corralhelm commanders.

Your playing niether mox diamond nor horizon canopy, so you can't play around submerge which sucks. Not losing to their wastelands is also very important.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Thanks for the report sdematt.

I plan on attending the SCG Open in Indianapolis. I've already booked a hotel. At this point I'm not sure what I will be playing, but it will for sure be a rock deck. I have a list that is pretty close to the popular junk list that I always do well with... then there's Titan Rock. I've really been working on this deck a lot lately and it is sick. It is not possible for any aggro deck to win against this deck. Most counterbalance decks have a hard time with it too, but they at least have a chance. The biggest problem that I'm running into is any dedicated control deck like landstill and some tempo decks. Here's the current list in short:

3 sun titan
3 kitchen finks
3 e. witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura tribe elder
4 KoTR

4 swords
3 deed
4 thoughtseize
4 therapy
3 top

3 marsh flats
3 catacombs
2 windswept heath
2 scrubland
2 bayou
1 savanah
2 wasteland
3 swamp
3 forest
2 plains

sideboard
3 k grip
4 duress
3 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
2 diabolic edict
2 path to exile

I still need to do a lot more testing, but if I can really get this deck to be an allstar against the expected meta, you all will be seeing me in the top 8 coverage and probably in at least 1 featured match before the top 8. I think the best answer to my problems with the dedicated control matchup would probably be thrun, the last troll. I plan on testing that a bit later, or just saying forget about that matchup as there probably won't be a lot of it anyways.

[sdematt]

My issue is that either:

a) I don't resolve a Goyf or Knight, they counter it

b) They have too much pressure on board some of the time

I've found it's been better since I've added more Deed/EE, since I can sweep more. The Merfolk player even said he hated resolved creatures because he certainly can't compete with them. I find I'm losing because I might have a Tarmogoyf or a Knight, but he has Cursecatcher, Reejerey, Adept, etc. already on board. Again, I didn't get to play with the Plagues in, so I'm pretty sure I could have had better times postboard had I not screwed that one up.

I've found that the Mox Diamond, as I've said, can be beneficial at times, and sometimes not. Much of the time I'm Thoughtseizing/casting Top on turn 1. I'm not saying turn 2 plays on turn 1 are bad, don't get me wrong. I'm going on the basis of consistent mana vs. speed. I don't think in any of the games I played last night Diamond would have made it that much more in my favour, per say. All the cards I drew I wanted, and the cards replacing Diamond I needed/liked to have all night. I don't think against Merfolk having a turn 1 creature drop means as much as people argue. They'll have Vial, Cursecatcher, Mutavault, etc. to foil your plans of attack for the first little while at least, or until you blow something up. Dropping Confidant would be good, as would a Hymn, but I've found Daze/Cursecatcher to foil those plans more times than not.

I'm pretty sure Submerge is not the best card they could have in their sideboard. I'm assuming by play around Submerge you mean use Canopy as your green source and not have a Forest for them to be able to Submerge for free?

I'll keep trying the matchup (with sideboard of course). I'll keep trying Moxen and going back and forth, though.

Also: Off Topic ahead, beware. Do any of you also play Aggro-Loam? Just curious as Rock and Loam are very similar (in terms of larger finishers, higher CMC cards, mid game is very good for us, etc.). I'm just curious to see how many Rock players also play many of the same decks as their other decks.

-Matt

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I used to play aggro loam as my everyday go-to deck before i started playing the rock. They are very similar except that aggro-loam is a bit more aggressive unsurprisingly. I go back to try it out every so often and it is still good. It is really good in the tribal matchups so I thought about commiting to it for the scg open, but it just get blown out by counterbalance preboard. Post board is reliance on k-grip, which doesn't always happen. First turn moxen is good with top too, because eot you can rearrange top 3 so on turn 2 you draw what you need. I also play a lot of storm combo on and off. I tend to stick with UBW because I really like orim's chant and sometimes empty the warrens is really terrible.

[deezy]

Whats your issue with merfolk? I particularly enjoy that matchup. Granted, playing with mox diamonds definitely gives an extra speed boost. As long as you can resolve a goyf or kotr, you really shouldn't have much of an issue. Save your removal for their corralhelm commanders.

Your playing niether mox diamond nor horizon canopy, so you can't play around submerge which sucks. Not losing to their wastelands is also very important.

Agreed I completely dominate merefolk to the tune of about 70% of game ones go to me....Not sure whats troubling your build...I do well even when I dont open with mox...

[deezy]

My issue is that either:

a) I don't resolve a Goyf or Knight, they counter it

b) They have too much pressure on board some of the time

I've found it's been better since I've added more Deed/EE, since I can sweep more. The Merfolk player even said he hated resolved creatures because he certainly can't compete with them. I find I'm losing because I might have a Tarmogoyf or a Knight, but he has Cursecatcher, Reejerey, Adept, etc. already on board. Again, I didn't get to play with the Plagues in, so I'm pretty sure I could have had better times postboard had I not screwed that one up.

I've found that the Mox Diamond, as I've said, can be beneficial at times, and sometimes not. Much of the time I'm Thoughtseizing/casting Top on turn 1. I'm not saying turn 2 plays on turn 1 are bad, don't get me wrong. I'm going on the basis of consistent mana vs. speed. I don't think in any of the games I played last night Diamond would have made it that much more in my favour, per say. All the cards I drew I wanted, and the cards replacing Diamond I needed/liked to have all night. I don't think against Merfolk having a turn 1 creature drop means as much as people argue. They'll have Vial, Cursecatcher, Mutavault, etc. to foil your plans of attack for the first little while at least, or until you blow something up. Dropping Confidant would be good, as would a Hymn, but I've found Daze/Cursecatcher to foil those plans more times than not.

I'm pretty sure Submerge is not the best card they could have in their sideboard. I'm assuming by play around Submerge you mean use Canopy as your green source and not have a Forest for them to be able to Submerge for free?

I'll keep trying the matchup (with sideboard of course). I'll keep trying Moxen and going back and forth, though.

Also: Off Topic ahead, beware. Do any of you also play Aggro-Loam? Just curious as Rock and Loam are very similar (in terms of larger finishers, higher CMC cards, mid game is very good for us, etc.). I'm just curious to see how many Rock players also play many of the same decks as their other decks.

-Matt

For me mox is sick. Thing is a first turn hymm or confidant or even thoughtseize and top are just power house openers.
Especially if you play first.You use the discard to draw theyre counter out and look at what theyre packing and then drop you dudes.. Vial is annoying but is of no concern when theyre hand is empty or even low. cursecatcher can be little more then a pest it cant stop deed or EE so you gotta just watch the order in which you do things. I have baited them into using him to counter something with him before just to land somthing afterwards. mutavault is rarely a factor if you pack a full set of wasteland and commander is the only thing that will smash you if you dont watch it that flying sucks for us but maze can be of assistance. Dont let a standstill sit turn after turn play into it and give them the cards and keep moving other wise youll have to fight through it and a fist full of counter too. when it comes to combat theyre guys cant even compete against ours and a KOR with a maze is almost game over for sure.....Good luck on the rest of your deck testing though I think you will get it down and that matchup will be less of a issue down the road....

[sdematt]

a) I know I shouldn't let Standstill sit, I'm not terrible :P

b) For me, it just seems that most of the time I'm always overrun/screwed over by him, no matter the amount of removal, counters, or creatures I draw. Again, it could be I'm drawing badly and he's drawing very well at times, considering we both play similar lists with similar cards. He's also a VERY good player, and plays the black Splash for Perish/Engineered Plague (just so you know which version he's playing).

I'll be testing some more, though. I'm hoping to just play against it more and maybe just run better numbers. It could be I haven't played a statistically significant number of games against them yet :P

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

Something which I've seen few Rock/Deadguy players side-in against Merfolk which has been tremendously strong for me is Extirpate. The average build is running in 3 SB, but I'm not seeing it get much use against Merfolk. Why? We run a suite of removal so getting Lords thrown into the 'yard isn't an issue, thus using 1 card to remove 3 remaining Lord's seems pretty strong.This is especially true if you can remove Coralhelm (priority) or Reejery, which puts you at a huge advantage.

Or, y'know, you could always splash R for Spinal Villain. :rolleyes:

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

Most of the time, I'm also RFG'ing most of the creatures, but sweeping then Extirpating seems an alright plan. The problem is what to take out?

Right now, I'm taking out 4 vindicate for 4 Plague, and then usually a random for another Deed. What should I cut for another 3 Extirpates, or should I not bother with Plagues at all? Plague helps slow them down, as you can usually remove the one lord they need to lay more dudes, and hopefully follow up with a second one.

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

I typically don't even bother with E. Plague other than for the Goblin MU. The issue being that with Merfolk if you drop them early enough yeah they're amazing, but the problem is that firstly you need to drop more than 1 E. Plague and secondly, the Merfolk player only has to cast 1 of their 12-16 Lords to completely negate an E. Plague. Most of the time I drop it they don't even bother countering it. They just say: "Yea, E. Plague resolves. EOT Vial in a Lord, on my turn drop another 1-2 Lords, swing."

I typically SB in Extirpate, Pernicious Deed(s), Dueling Grounds, and/or Path to Exile when I have it in the SB. Yeah, Ground doesn't stop them from swinging in the air with a Coralhelm/1 powerful Lord, but it does stops them from mass-attacking with 5 or 6 dudes at once, and by limiting them to 1 attacker you can just reserve a KotR/Goyf to block and save your StP/PtE for Coralhelm if necessary. Dueling Grounds also lets you take full advantage of Maze of Ith, and stalls out until you draw a board sweeper (Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed) which I have found to be the best way to deal with tribal.

Of course, my meta also typically sticks to a Mono-U build, so I can't speak for how effective my strategy is for the B/W splash.

Forlorn Egoist

[Valtrix]

Siding in extirpate sounds like a horrible plan to me. Why? Because even in a long match, it's not as though cutting them off a single lord is really going to matter, since they will still draw creatures, and they'll still have access to many lords. Even if they can't draw a particular lord, their draws are still going to be good, and you won't even notice that you played extirpate. It's not like playing against countertop that has 4 goyfs and 3 Jaces--Extirpating any of their win-cons seriously hurts them. Furthermore, actually getting the lord you want is tough since your :w: removal exiles creatures. That means you have to have them discard a card, or hit a creature with your couple deeds. Seems like a bad plan to me. When you could playing more creature removal/discard/creatures/control cards, extirpate seems like it will barely have an effect and thus be a poor choice.

Engineered Plague is a great card against merfolk, and if you think otherwise that's just silly. Sure, lords can negate the effect, but keep in mind that engineered plague is slowing them down a lot. Suddenly their two lord board and a mutavault is swinging for 3 less a turn. You also get the added advantage that if they only have a single lord + cursecatcher or silvergil you can kill that creature for free. Plus, if you get multiple Eplagues out it's very difficult for them to defeat that, since your big creatures will just race them and they might not even be able to develop any board presence.

[JonBarber]

Siding in extirpate sounds like a horrible plan to me. Why? Because even in a long match, it's not as though cutting them off a single lord is really going to matter, since they will still draw creatures, and they'll still have access to many lords. Even if they can't draw a particular lord, their draws are still going to be good, and you won't even notice that you played extirpate. It's not like playing against countertop that has 4 goyfs and 3 Jaces--Extirpating any of their win-cons seriously hurts them. Furthermore, actually getting the lord you want is tough since your :w: removal exiles creatures. That means you have to have them discard a card, or hit a creature with your couple deeds. Seems like a bad plan to me. When you could playing more creature removal/discard/creatures/control cards, extirpate seems like it will barely have an effect and thus be a poor choice.

Engineered Plague is a great card against merfolk, and if you think otherwise that's just silly. Sure, lords can negate the effect, but keep in mind that engineered plague is slowing them down a lot. Suddenly their two lord board and a mutavault is swinging for 3 less a turn. You also get the added advantage that if they only have a single lord + cursecatcher or silvergil you can kill that creature for free. Plus, if you get multiple Eplagues out it's very difficult for them to defeat that, since your big creatures will just race them and they might not even be able to develop any board presence.

I second this 100%

Extirpating non-win condition cards creates virtual card advantage, and typically, you want real card advantage. E plague is amazing vs folk. If you use your removal properly, 2 plagues usually ends the game vs them. I'm never disappointed to see the card in that matchup

[Dzra]

If you're running Plague, do you think it's necessary to run the full set or do you think I could get away with 2 E Plagues and an Enlightened Tutor?

[Valtrix]

Well, what else do you want the rest of your board to look like? Personally I'm a fan of 4 plagues (Or maybe 3 + 1-2 tutors) because you have increased consistency to see them and getting two out is almost an auto-win against tribal decks.

[damionblackgear]

Matt, why are you boarding out your vindicates? Try this: -4 Hymn, -1 Elspeth; +4 plagues, +1 Deed. Honestly though, I wouldn't worry about plague. Just remove a hymn for the deed and move on. You have a ton of early removal and vindicates will help. You can force them to deal with you.
If you're still having trouble I would add some room for 3 chokes. It sounds odd but, Folk's strength is being able to drop lords quickly. If you limit them to the vials you turn them into a crappy blue aggressive deck...

[ZeinVoncy]

When it comes to E. Plague vs Extirpate, I feel that Extirpates 3 for 1 CA is better then E. Plague. You say that see no difference from Extirpating a Lord and yet you do when you have E. Plague in play? I don't understand that seeing as one of the Lords already "negates" the E. Plague, they just have another 2/2 on the field. And then another Lord will have them going, as where if you Extirpate a Lord, you won't have to deal with it anymore. Extirpate gives you CA as where E. Plague does not. I have to go w/ Extirpate over E. Plague.

I'd rather say take Choke over Engineered Plague, but w/ Aether Vial, I still do not seeing it being a huge hurdle for them to overcome.

[deezy]

a) I know I shouldn't let Standstill sit, I'm not terrible :P

b) For me, it just seems that most of the time I'm always overrun/screwed over by him, no matter the amount of removal, counters, or creatures I draw. Again, it could be I'm drawing badly and he's drawing very well at times, considering we both play similar lists with similar cards. He's also a VERY good player, and plays the black Splash for Perish/Engineered Plague (just so you know which version he's playing).

I'll be testing some more, though. I'm hoping to just play against it more and maybe just run better numbers. It could be I haven't played a statistically significant number of games against them yet :P

-Matt

LOL.... glad to know your not terrible....But its funny the stratigies that seem to be the way to go at the time we are playing but agreed I feel that should be obvious....I do find that for my build I run +1 tutor +1 EE in the main over gerrards verdict along with the 1 main deck deed that 3 ways to have a board sweep....Plus in my board I have 1 more EE which is the only thing I bring in vs merefolk...That gives you 4 ways to sweep...I dont agree with boarding out vindivate though I saw that being disscussed and not to say somthing else couldnt be effective but it just seem counter productive to me and plague seem kinda half ass in this matchup....I know deed is a bomb thats why I keep one main deck but EE is faster in alot of situations and in this matchup dropping it for 2 is pretty bomb you can do it 3 turn without catching a daze...And when it hits it changes what they are able to do...

[sdematt]

I took out the Vindicates in that match because I found that a 1-for-1 at 3 mana wasn't cutting the mustard against him, at least in game 1. Even after we played a few games, he remarked he never liked to see Hymn to Tourach. I'll give your suggestion a try, though. To be honest, I wish I could just add when I sideboard (I know this isn't productive, but you know what I mean :tongue:)

-Matt

[Valtrix]

When it comes to E. Plague vs Extirpate, I feel that Extirpates 3 for 1 CA is better then E. Plague.

This is completely wrong. Extirpate is not card advantage, and it is nowhere near a 3 for 1. It is atrocious in this matchup, because merfolk is going to play almost the same against you regardless if any one of their threats is extirpated. Think about it, the merfolk deck wins lots of games without ever drawing a particular card, so it seems pretty worthless to exile any of their cards when they can still just beat you anyway. So instead of actually doing something to affect the board or their hand you're playing a card that doesn't really do anything. EPlauge actually does something, because it saves you from taking more damage, and with some good use of spot removal can usually get a creature too (cursecatcher, silvergil). It doesn't matter if a lord "negates" EPlauge, because plague is saving you from taking a lot of damage. And like I said, two plagues out can become an autowin against them if you have spot removal for even a single lord if they have two out.

[SpikeyMikey]

I much prefer Grounds to Plague. Plague is so often irrelevant unless it comes down in multiples. Take the triple Lord example earlier. 1 E Plague saves you 3 life but Dueling Grounds saves you 8. Fish and Goblins both win by swarming. Unlike decks like Bant, they're not going to try and win by protecting and swinging with one threat. It also means less board space devoted to the matchups and I can use all the extra board space I can get. Instead of 3-4 Plagues and an E Tutor, I can run 2 Grounds and a tutor and have an extra slot for something else. The only tribal matchup where Plague is better is Elves and that's because they're a creature based storm deck where attacking with Elves is a secondary win-con; primary is Emrakul, Tendrils or Grapeshot. And you can just bring in combo hate like CotV or Ethersworn against them.

Sk8, which hotel are you staying at? I'll be at the La Quinta at Executive Drive over by the airport. I'm bringing the Bant deck I played in KC.

[Valtrix]

Agreed. Dueling grounds just seems much better in general. I was simply arguing for Eplague's value when others think it's not really relevant. But, if you really want to deal with the tribal matchups just play dueling grounds. I like the idea of using probably 2 grounds/2 tutors so that you can increase hate of other cards like ethersworn canonist and the like.