[Deck] The Rock

[Mr. Safety]

I don't really understand what some of you guys are talking about. I can understand that you dont have Thoughtseize, but that doesent make it bad. It doesnt even make Duress good.

Thoughtseize is obviously the best discard spell. If you run certain version you will add 3-4 Cabal Therapies and that's it. If you run KotR then you go for Inquisition of Kozilek. Duress is the last choice - 1-2 in sideboard, but It's not very good.

Let's not talk about burn matchup and Thoughtseize anymore. Matt has it right - fetch basics, play shaman, goyf(s), keep W ready, jitte is gg - not necessary - and kill him! This should be enough. Burn players are usually quite bad.



Nobody is arguing which is the best discard spell, that has long been decided. I am diversifying my discard suite for several reasons:

1) I only have 3 Thoughtseize, but I want 6 targeted discards
2) Burn is a known deck in my metagame, as well as U/R Delver. While U/R Delver isn't as threatening as Burn, it plays a similar game plan.
3) Junk/Rock is already stuffed full of ways to deal with creatures (Decay, Swords, Vindicate.) If you're going to play more than 4 discards, Duress seems smart because it fills a gap with non-creature threats.

Also, your summary of playing against burn is succinct, but a simple matchup doesn't mean easy. I've played and lost to good Burn players (yes they exist.) I understand that Burn is a simple deck to play, but I don't understand the 'high brow' attitude. Yes, Junk is a skill-testing deck to pilot. No need to be arrogant about it.

You know what else is great against Sneak Attack? Tidehollow Sculler and Qasali Pridemage. I have added Pridemage back to my GSZ toolbox, just in case I see it.

[Petree]

I will be straight honest, I've put together 6 different versions of Junk and I'll like it for a minute and then hate it. I have no idea whats even good or how I like to play this deck atm. Ive just figured that Liliana should be considered. KoTR should not be cut, Goyf is still a solid card, DRS is ok, STFM is slow but still very relevant. GSZ is broken but hurts if it gets countered or discarded. One Jitte Main is super good. Sylvan Library should be in almost every list. Scavenging Ooze is not as Champ as we want him to be anymore but should still be considered. Sigh.... I'll figure it out, I know it.

Thanks for answering my question about show n tell, I'll consider Tidehollow sculler now and O rings...

Not another question, It has seem that Spy the deck will be a dumb secret deck that will come around, how can we prepare for that?

[sdematt]

I will be straight honest, I've put together 6 different versions of Junk and I'll like it for a minute and then hate it. I have no idea whats even good or how I like to play this deck atm. Ive just figured that Liliana should be considered. KoTR should not be cut, Goyf is still a solid card, DRS is ok, STFM is slow but still very relevant. GSZ is broken but hurts if it gets countered or discarded. One Jitte Main is super good. Sylvan Library should be in almost every list. Scavenging Ooze is not as Champ as we want him to be anymore but should still be considered. Sigh.... I'll figure it out, I know it.

Thanks for answering my question about show n tell, I'll consider Tidehollow sculler now and O rings...

Not another question, It has seem that Spy the deck will be a dumb secret deck that will come around, how can we prepare for that?

Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, etc.


-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I actually would advise Surgical over Extirpate for that matchup. It's being designed in the same fashion as Belcher (1st turn consistency). Having Surgical gives you an out to being on the draw.

The best way to look at that deck is Belcher and Breakfast had a kid.

I got a message over facebook that told me to bring in charms and if you get the chance to use them do it with the last Narco trigger (I was running mox at the time so I could T1 it on the draw). I was also told to use Hymn > Lilians. The thing is if you can survive turn 1 your chances of winning go up drastically. it's a graveyard based deck. Think of it as Reanimator.

[Barbed Blightning]

Don't forget: they can turn into belcher games two and three

[Barbed Blightning]

Don't forget: they can turn into belcher games two and three

[Arsenal]

I'm not quite sure why people think SFM is "slow". If you cast SFM on turn 2, then untap with her on turn 3, yes, you'll have to hold open 1W in order to flash in Batterskull, but I think people are missing the fact that you're going to be flashing in Batterskull. You're not "losing" anything, you're simply choosing to run out a 4/4 Batterskull on turn 3 that will be attacking on turn 4 as opposed to running out a 4/4 KotR on turn 3 that will be attacking/activating on turn 4. And if you have a better play on turn 3 (like Liliana or something), then do that instead of flashing in Batterskull.

[Kich867]

I'm not quite sure why people think SFM is "slow". If you cast SFM on turn 2, then untap with her on turn 3, yes, you'll have to hold open 1W in order to flash in Batterskull, but I think people are missing the fact that you're going to be flashing in Batterskull. You're not "losing" anything, you're simply choosing to run out a 4/4 Batterskull on turn 3 that will be attacking on turn 4 as opposed to running out a 4/4 KotR on turn 3 that will be attacking/activating on turn 4. And if you have a better play on turn 3 (like Liliana or something), then do that instead of flashing in Batterskull.

I think it's more the "You could play a turn 2 Tarmogoyf who will be attacking as a 4/5 on turn 3." which is a turn faster and requires way less mana investment. However Batterskull is a total ridiculous boss. Once you get the B-Skull / Library train rolling shit is soooooo real.

[Esper3k]

Yeah SFM is only truly slow if you're going the Jitte route. Getting down that 4/4 vigilant lifelinker buys you a lot of time against decks that are attacking you with creatures.

Against combo, I try not to stress overly much. Since we're not playing blue, our matchup against the spread of different combo decks is never going to be that amazing. I say just pick the combo deck you want to beat and sideboard curbstomp the shit out of it.

[Arsenal]

I think it's more the "You could play a turn 2 Tarmogoyf who will be attacking as a 4/5 on turn 3." which is a turn faster and requires way less mana investment. However Batterskull is a total ridiculous boss. Once you get the B-Skull / Library train rolling shit is soooooo real.

I didn't cut Tarmogoyf, I cut KotR for SFM. I can still run out turn 2 Goyf, swing for 4 on turn 3. Basically, I found that when my opponent had the removal spell in hand, SFM > KotR as I at least got some value out of SFM and spent one less mana to do so. The times that I got to untap after casting my creature, an active SFM threatening a flashed Batterskull was generally better than durdling with "I didn't swing with my 6/6 KotR, cuz it'll get chumped all day by your Souls tokens, so I'll eot fetch a Wasteland, then Wasteland your nonbasic."

[Koplinchen]

There will be a several GP (Strasbourgh) trial here. If you can choose any deck which one would you play? Or would you take JUNK or JUND?

I feel that our Rock/JUNK is better against combo and has a descent game against the field.

On the other hand JUND is weaker against combo but stronger agaist Elves! and probably slightly better against fair decks thanks to Punishing Fire. (esper, vial aggro)

I like Cabal Therapy much more than Hymn to Tourach, Lingering Souls more than Bloodbraid Elf, but I dont know what is actually the better deck.

[Esper3k]

There will be a several GP (Strasbourgh) trial here. If you can choose any deck which one would you play? Or would you take JUNK or JUND?

I feel that our Rock/JUNK is better against combo and has a descent game against the field.

On the other hand JUND is weaker against combo but stronger agaist Elves! and probably slightly better against fair decks thanks to Punishing Fire. (esper, vial aggro)

I like Cabal Therapy much more than Hymn to Tourach, Lingering Souls more than Bloodbraid Elf, but I dont know what is actually the better deck.

I think you fairly accurately sum it up.

My thoughts would be:

1) Play whatever of the two you're much more familiar & comfortable with.
2) If you're fairly comfortable with both, play whatever you think is better against the expected meta.

[Barbed Blightning]

I think you fairly accurately sum it up.

My thoughts would be:

1) Play whatever of the two you're much more familiar & comfortable with.
2) If you're fairly comfortable with both, play whatever you think is better against the expected meta.

Same. I find a deck's power is mostly illusory; certainly some decks are better than others, but most established/DTBs are solid. Go with what you prefer and what you are comfortable with. Pilot comfort and familiarity are what will give you an edge

[sdematt]

I've played Junk for 4 years (or so) and have done well in hostile and friendly metas as well as losing in hostile and friendly metas. It's about knowing your deck better than your opponent, and in some ways, just luck and pairings.

-Matt

[Koplinchen]

I played that GPT yesterday with noknight 19+1 lands list.

Sideboard - 2 Canonist, 1 Teeg, 2 Surgical Ext., 2 Jitte, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Darkblast, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Lingering Souls, 1 Grarruk Relentless, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engeneered Explosives, 1 Life from the Loam.

I beat 2 espers, canadian and lost to ANT. My first loss to combo deck since I play this deck (5tournaments). In the third game he started like this (on play): sea, brainstorm, lotus petal, ritual, cabal ritual, ritual, Grave Titan. I keep 4 decays in the deck against combo - many other things to side out, but I didn't keep in swords...

That was enough to make TOP4 anyway. Then I play against friend of mine - no matter what I play he never looses against me, ever (it is a curse) He played mono white aggro without Mangara. I quickly killed him game one. Game two was...

1him - Wasteland, Vial 1me - since I had Bayou and two Wastes I wasted his land
2him - he had no more lands so he only ticked Vial 2me - Bayou Shaman
3him - still no land! 3me - Abrupt Decay; eot Mystic into Batterskull
4him - Plains! Mother 4me - Decay his Mystic, Confidant
5him - nothing, discarded Rest in Peace; 5me - another Confidant

let us make this clear - he had ONE plains, Mother keeping my Confidants at bay, missed several landrops... I had TWO Confidants, Shaman, lands, full grip... I LOST THIS GAME!

6him - Plains no. 2 - Rest in Peace! I do not know lads if you know what this card does to our deck - it kills GSZ, Shaman, Goyf, Ooze, Lingering Souls, Darkblast - 18 cards... It has a nice picture of my hometown Prague but it is one of the most annoying cards in legacy.

then he drew another plains, played jitte and then I was trying to kill his creatures because I couldt find either 3 Decays and three Jitte to deal with his one. I was drawing 3 cards a turn plus Sylvan on the board. I found only one Liliana that got O-ringed.

At some point he attacked with Knight of the White Orchard and Jitte... I had 3 goyfs 0/1, 2 Confidants, 1 Shaman, 1 Ooze. Then he drew another SFM into SoFI...

When I drew Abrupt Decay it was too late. I need to kill Rest in Peace AND Jitte.


In the last game he quickly vialed/played two mothers, added Mystic and that was it. The other finalist wasnt even going to Strasbourg. I was a little bit frustrated. I hope you can understand that.


I really like Engeneered Explosives in the board. We obviously can not play Pernicious Deed. EE was golden whole day. Mabye we could run two or three and be even more controlish after board.


cheers Tom

[Petree]

I loved, loved playing EE... my only problem was it doesn't get around gaddock teeg, so started testing powder keg. Now im only running golgari charms to help with tribal decks and to nuke enchantments. Funny.... charms are good against EE and keg.

[sdematt]

Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm split is probably what you want. Not mucking your own Souls/Confidants is definitely relevant, but so can regenerating or killing enchantments.

Good job on the finish though! :cool:

I've got to start prepping for SCG Seattle soon and hopefully churning out another article :P

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

After the very tiring major legacy tournament on our place, Went 3-2-2 using my own brew (i was expecting many SnT decks, Jund decks, stoneblades, BUG decks) but only one of those decks i encountered maybe i was not paired w/ those deck where i saw many people playing those decks. Here's my quick matches:

R1 bye
R2 vs mono blue infect-blazing shoal combo: 1-2
R3 vs Death and Taxes: 2-1
R4 vs esper stoneblade: 1-1-1
R5 vs Junk: 1-1
R6 vs mbc: 2-0
R7 vs cloudpost: 0-2

List

3 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

2 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
3 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize

2 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares

3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
2 scrubland
3 bayou
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats

SB
3 timely reinforcements
3 surgical extraction
3 oblivion ring
2 thrun the last troll
2 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay


Final notes: i played a 22-man deck w/c MOST OF THE TIME my 7 opening only have 1 land and MOST OF MY GAMES i took mulligans (draw 5), i think i will go back to 23 lands and remove some card.

Thanks!

[Barbed Blightning]

After the very tiring major legacy tournament on our place, Went 3-2-2 using my own brew (i was expecting many SnT decks, Jund decks, stoneblades, BUG decks) but only one of those decks i encountered maybe i was not paired w/ those deck where i saw many people playing those decks. Here's my quick matches:

R1 bye
R2 vs mono blue infect-blazing shoal combo: 1-2
R3 vs Death and Taxes: 2-1
R4 vs esper stoneblade: 1-1-1
R5 vs Junk: 1-1
R6 vs mbc: 2-0
R7 vs cloudpost: 0-2

List

3 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

2 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
3 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize

2 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares

3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
2 scrubland
3 bayou
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats

SB
3 timely reinforcements
3 surgical extraction
3 oblivion ring
2 thrun the last troll
2 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay

Final notes: i played a 22-man deck w/c MOST OF THE TIME my 7 opening only have 1 land and MOST OF MY GAMES i took mulligans (draw 5), i think i will go back to 23 lands and remove some card.

Thanks!

Something also to consider: wasteland, Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, Dryad Arbor and Karakas don't count as lands, at least in my book. Yeah they tap for mana (save Maze), but their inclusion is strictly for their abilities.


I've also been having good success with 4 decay, 4 stp. Pulse consumes a turn or a DRS activation, and thus too slow.

I have also found 3 GSZ to be a bit excessive; I think I will go back to two and 4 goyfs (combo is crazy in these parts). However, i would move the hymns to the SB and include some # of GSZ, since it does add consistency and increase virtual threat density.

[Skizz]

may i ask you for which deck you use the 3 timely reinforcements in the SB ? :)

[Mr. Safety]

So I ended up placing 2nd at the local tournament yesterday. Seventeen players, five rounds, I swept my first two matches, lost one game in the third, swept the fourth and then then went 1-2 in the finals. Overall, I was pretty happy about how I played and ended up 4-1 for matches, 9-3 for games.

Round 1 (2-0) - Leon with No-Lands Combo (Balustrade Spy/Undercity Informer)

I win the die roll (I almost always win the die roll for some reason, only lost the roll twice all day) and start off with Scrubland into Inquisition of Kozilek. I see a hand full of mana sources and take an Elvish Spirit Guide and see the Balustrade Spy in hand. This makes my Wasteland in hand useless, but I also have a Thoughtseize and a Tidehollow Sculler. He scoops after I hit Undercity Informer with an end-of-turn Swords to Plowshares (he was hoping to top-deck another mana source the following turn, I guess.) I'm surprised at how fast he conceded, but without any reusable sources of mana he felt that I would just draw into more goodies. I think he should have stayed in the game, but he scooped. *shrug* (1-0)

Game 2 he goes first and mulligans to six. I sideboarded in Hymn to Tourach, Pithing Needle Enlightened Tutor, Tormod's Crypt, and 3 Surgical Extractions. I have a lot of hate, and I'm hoping I draw some. He doesn't look happy with his hand but keeps anyways. I again have the turn one discard, along with a Surgical Extraction. He loses 4/8 of his core engine cards in one shot. I get a Liliana online turn 3, he gets the other dude in the graveyard and I have the Surgical for that and he scoops. (2-0)

I got nuts lucky against this deck, it has a reputation (albeit quite new) of going off turn 1 much of the time. It's just like Belcher in that it is a glass-cannon combo, and I got luck and denied him just enough mana and had the hand disruption to get there. The round only lasted 10 minutes tops, and most of that was shuffling and him taking mulligans. I am reminded that consistent decks like the Rock can punish decks with variance severely. Starting with bad draws is a death sentence, especially after a mulligan and then getting hit with a turn 1 discard. Go go gadget discard, FTW! It is important to note that this deck can *literally* not win against Leyline of the Void or a timely Rest in Peace.

Round 2 (2-0)- Cody with CounterTop Miracles

Game 1 has me once again starting off with some targeted discard. I have him discard Trinket Mage turn 1 and get a turn 2 Dark Confidant. He quickly gets hit with Swords to Plowshares but I draw into more disruption in the form of double Wasteland and an Abrupt Decay for his Counterbalance. While keeping him off white mana for the Entreat/Terminus plan he still Force of Will's my Vindicate on his Ghostly Prison, but I draw into enough mana to not only attack with Knight but also with another thraat (can't remember what...) (1-0)

I sideboard in a couple of Hymn to Tourach and Teeg. Game 2 he get's some good action going with a miracled Entreat for 2 angels. I Decay one during the attack phase, but I also get Dark Confidant onto the battlefield and start drawing cards, the most important being a Liliana of the Veil. She deals with the other angel and I win at 7 life after attacking with 2 Knights and Bob. He boarded in Relic of Progenitus, which turned my Knights into Grizzly Bears, but I still have a board full of threats and I've dealt with his two copies of Terminus: one with Thoughtseize, one from Hymn to Tourach. No miracle for him, not even with an active Sensei's Divining Top. He could have gotten a Terminus around turn 3, but I didn't have a board presence at the time. He lands Jace in this game and he's fatesealing me rather than going for Brainstorm, which boggles my mind. I don't bother attacking Jace because I have him dead in 2 turns if he keeps up the fateseal rather than bounce/Brainstorm. He does keep fatesealing and down he goes. (2-0)

I'm feeling good, Miracles could have been a disaster. I am reminded poignantly how good targeted discard is and I play a lot of discard (counting Sculler it is more than most Junk/Rock players.) I have found that it makes difficult matches winnable and lets you steal wins you shouldn't get. Liliana of the Veil was just so good in this matchup. I am thinking I should probably play 3 in the maindeck, a potential future upgrade.

Round 3 (2-1) - Travis with R/b Goblins

Game one has me staring down a turn 1 Goblin Lacky, but I feel ok when I play a turn 1 Deathrite to block. He Lightning Bolts it, gets in with Lackey and gets a free Goblin Warchief. I draw into a Swords to Plowshares and make what I think is a mistake by hitting Warchief with it rather than Lackey. Next turn I cringe, waiting for the big play off Lackey hitting. Brick, he doesn't have anything to drop into play for free. I end up getting a couple more removals and Green Sun's Zenith into a Tarmogoyf while Wasteland-ing him off his budget dual lands (Aunties Hovel, Akoum Refuge) (1-0)

Game 2 I board in Enlightened Tutor and two copies of Pernicious Deed, taking out Thoughtseize. He gets a mind-numbingly fast start with a turn 1 Mogg Fanatic (which kills my Dryad Arbor), double Goblin Piledriver, and a Siege-Gang Commander. I'm dead pretty quick after drawing a Pernicious Deed too late. (1-1)

Game 3 I get the nuts: early discard, Tarmogoyf, and three spot removals that keep all of his creatures off the board. Goofy finishes fast. (2-1)

I was kicking myself for not having my Engineered Plague in my sideboard, but I didn't win either game by using wipers. Both game wins came from playing my normal game plan, which makes me feel good that I don't have a lousy matchup against Goblins pre-board. I didn't get to use my sideboarded in cards but I took the match anyways. I was literally *shocked* to find out Travis didn't have a sideboard. He said it was his first tournament since 2006 and just wanted to get his feet wet again. He ground out a Dredge deck 2-1 in his first round, so I think he's off to a great reintegration. His black splash was for Patriarch's Bidding by the way, something that makes him quite resilient to board wipes, but in Legacy it's rather slow given the ability of Wasteland to deal with his dual lands and it's five mana cost.

Round 4 (2-0) - Nick with Show and Tell/Omniscience

I played Nick last time around and it's like a recurring nightmare for him. Show and Tell is absurdly weak to discard, and I have discard coming out my arse. IoK, followed by Sculler, followed by Liliana game 1. (1-0)

I sideboard in both Hymn to Tourach, Gaddock Teeg, Enlightened Tutor, Oblivion Ring, and 2 of my copies of Surgical Extraction. I am already favored, but I take out Jitte, Abrupt Decay x3 , Vindicate, a Deathrite Shaman, Eternal Witness. It goes the same, although he gets a Cabal Therapy (surprise move, I didn't think he was using Therapy) and he nabs my Liliana. I still discard him into oblivion with Thoughtseize and Sculler after I get Sylvan Library online. I'm aggressively using the extra draws from Library because honestly I'm either going to win or lose, but neither will be close. (2-0)

This matchup is actually about even game one and absurdly favored by me game 2. He boarded in Ensnaring Bridge that he never saw, but I would have pinged with grizzly bears anyways. Deathrite Shaman ate up his cantrips and whittled him down.

Round 5 (1-2) John with 4-Color Cascade (Bloodbraid/Shardless aggro/control? Jund w/blue? Who knows, but it was sweet...)

This deck is unbelievably good, basically trading Dark Confidant and Hymn to Tourach for Ancestral Vision and Force of Will. The longer the games go, the stronger he gets. Game 1 I destroy his hand, and then he gets Ancestral Vision off a Bloodbraid Elf. I get a Tarmogoyf online, he cascades into a Liliana of the Veil and makes me sac it. It goes back and forth and then he cascaces into a Pyroblast, one of his sideboard cards. This is game one, which results in an auto-loss for preboarding. I don't hesitate and take it shamelessly, it's part of playing fair. I don't even feel bad about it. It's the only game I win anyways...but I figured if I could just eek out enough tempo game 2 I could win the match.

I sideboard, and don't change much but bring in Hymn to Tourach. He's favored by a mile, and we both know it. I have great card quality, but he LIghtning Bolts my Dark Confidant which is my only source of card advantage outside of Sylvan LIbrary. He cascades like a champ getting Abrupt Decay for my Goyf, and 'just' a Brainstorm to dig into more removal and counterspells. I try to Vindicate his Deathrite Shaman to attack for lethal, Force of Will shows up and we grind away until he has the game. (1-1)

I don't remember much about game 3, but it was more of the same in game 2. I am tired by now after playing 4 rounds on an empty stomach. I got detoured before the tournament and only made it on time by 5 minutes, so no lunch on the way (start time was 1:00pm.)I know in my head that this is just one of those matchups that I am poorly matched, and I don't feel bad about it. I play well and use my cards wisely, they just aren't enough. I am really kicking myself for not sideboarding Natrual Order + Progenitus, having made changes to my sideboard earlier in the week. That combination could have given me the exact edge I could have leveraged into wins. He can't deal with a Progenitus other than with Liliana of the Veil. That makes it easy to fight, I either pw-rule his Liliana with my own, keep an extra dude on the table so I don't sac Proggy, and target Liliana with my discard/Scullers. Looking back on it, having that in my sideboard would have made the matchup winnable. Without it? No way, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

I finish the day 4-1 in matches, 9-3 in games. I actually have a better win percentage than John who won the tournament, which makes me feel a little better about 2nd place. I get a Gigapede from the rare auction and 2 packs of Gatecrash for 2nd place, and I rip an Obzedat, Ghost Council! Sweet grab, and a fun day.

Next time I'm sticking to my guns and taking Natural Order. My sideboard made very little difference all day, having such a great maindeck. So next time I'm boarding a combo that can make the few bad matchups winnable. I trade for a few upgrades, most notably a Sensei's Divining Top and Life from the Loam for my deck. I drive home in a snow storm, but end up next to my cozy warm wood stove while munching on glorious panang curry over steamed brown rice that my wife ordered and I picked up on the way home.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness
1x Qasali Pridemage

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek (switched back from Duress last minute, was glad I did!)
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Treetop Village
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Sideboard:

1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Hymn to Tourach

[dballard]

Hey Mr. Safety, how often does the card from Tidehollow get returned to your opponent's hand? The more I think about it, it seems like some nasty tech.

[ryn ball_2]

@Barbed Blightning: thanks for the tip! yeah i felt it that i have an empty board and i want to pull a creature and GSZ is the answer for that, i thought i was facing many SnT decks so i up the pulse and lessen the decay but i was wrong most of my matches decay can handle them all so i will bring back to 4 stp, 4 decay as mentioned also by my 5th rounder mirror match. Plus hymn to tourach was not great at that day so i will move it again to my SB. Do you run 23 lands? Most of the time i have good spells at 7 but 1 lander, i dont know but for me 22 vs 23 makes the difference. Atm barbed what are your discard spells? Thanks

@timely card as SB: in our local meta burn is still rampant as well as UR delver burn, RUG, i know burn-type decks are the worst MU for rock/junk so i dedicated much SB for it and that timely saved me many times

[damionblackgear]

So I found my old (last SCG Denver time frame... when I played a stronger game) sideboarding notes that I gave to a buddy playing there. At first I was going to toss them but the theory portion still makes sense. I know most people don't play my lists but some of the theory should still apply. It doesn't cover every match-up, only the important ones at the time (Miracles, Stoneblade, Maverick, Goblins, Sneak/Show, and Canadian Thresh). I've cleaned up some of the spelling and grammar mistakes but I think I'm going to give that a rest as it's old and I'm not going to update it further (at this time).

Instead of taking up space, I just linked it, HERE (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jv7VfcU6VsSozbZHKQsJbHj4Ftg5HfY55CsCqCm4neA/edit?usp=sharing). I don't remember which exact variant(s) of mine this applied to so I can't give a list. Hope it can help someone.

[blablub]

I played that GPT yesterday with noknight 19+1 lands list.

Sideboard - 2 Canonist, 1 Teeg, 2 Surgical Ext., 2 Jitte, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Darkblast, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Lingering Souls, 1 Grarruk Relentless, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engeneered Explosives, 1 Life from the Loam.




May i ask which list you used? :) or can u give me link? :)

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Mr. Safety, how often does the card from Tidehollow get returned to your opponent's hand? The more I think about it, it seems like some nasty tech.

This time around? Zero times, it was always a permanent exile. It makes for an amazing play after a turn 1 Seize/IoK taking their removal. Most players don't have more than 2 removals in their hand, so if turn 1 I get one of them, turn 2 opens up for Sculler to take the other. Then I beat face with him. Ideal early game is Seize/IoK, Sculler, Liliana. From there, it just doesn't matter much what I draw.

Realize also that I play in a combo-heavy metagame. I played against 2 combo decks myself, but I knew of at least 3 others (one guy playing Dredge, which I consider combo, one guy playing an old Iggy-Pop list, and another guy playing Reanimator.) All of those decks play *zero* spot removal. I knew the Reanimator player, and he wasn't using Angel of Despair. Many combo deck can face a small amount of discard and plow through, but getting hit over and over really helps my chances.

I have been a big fan of Sculler since I used it as a budget sub for Bobs. Then I got Bobs and dropped it to 2 copies for this last tourney. Then I cut the Pridemage and got a 3rd Sculler back in. I like it better than Hymn to Tourach, no question.

Against decks that play Bolts, it's somewhat of a liability. But even against Bolts it's at worst a 1-for-1, making them use up a Bolt for removal, and at best it's a 2-for-1 because I get a Thoughtseize Grizzly Bear. It also gives me an easy 3 flex spots for my sideboard., which I absolutely LOVE.

[Mr. Safety]

So I found my old (last SCG Denver time frame... when I played a stronger game) sideboarding notes that I gave to a buddy playing there. At first I was going to toss them but the theory portion still makes sense. I know most people don't play my lists but some of the theory should still apply. It doesn't cover every match-up, only the important ones at the time (Miracles, Stoneblade, Maverick, Goblins, Sneak/Show, and Canadian Thresh). I've cleaned up some of the spelling and grammar mistakes but I think I'm going to give that a rest as it's old and I'm not going to update it further (at this time).

Instead of taking up space, I just linked it, HERE (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jv7VfcU6VsSozbZHKQsJbHj4Ftg5HfY55CsCqCm4neA/edit?usp=sharing). I don't remember which exact variant(s) of mine this applied to so I can't give a list. Hope it can help someone.

That was some great stuff, I read it over. I just got an Ulvenwald Tracker for my sideboard, and I'm loving the (somewhat older) tech of using Choke against blue decks. Dismember is an interesting idea...I'll have to go over all the options again, lol. I'm still itching to try NO-Pro though (would have taken the 4-color Cascade deck down nicely.)

[Kich867]

That was some great stuff, I read it over. I just got an Ulvenwald Tracker for my sideboard, and I'm loving the (somewhat older) tech of using Choke against blue decks. Dismember is an interesting idea...I'll have to go over all the options again, lol. I'm still itching to try NO-Pro though (would have taken the 4-color Cascade deck down nicely.)

Man the more you talk about Sculler, the more he seems pretty god damn awesome. A thoughtseize bear is pretty badass. I've been on the receiving end of it, it feels completely awful.

[Koplinchen]

May i ask which list you used? :) or can u give me link? :)

Hey, I used lavafrogg list with minor mostly sideboard modifications:


4 Tarmogyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowhares
3 Abropt Decay
1 Umazawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

It is awfuly enjoyable to play.

Tom

[sdematt]

Hey, I used lavafrogg list with minor mostly sideboard modifications:


4 Tarmogyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowhares
3 Abropt Decay
1 Umazawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

It is awfuly enjoyable to play.

Tom

Seems AWFULLY land light. I suspected so because he somehow managed to fit in EVERYTHING I wanted to play :P

I may try Scullers in the board in all honesty. Pressure + "discard" is pretty good.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I don't know if dropping Goyfs is due to budget, but splitting Goyf and Tidehollow is pretty intriguing, especially when you have GSZ to tutor it up turn 3.

Turn 1 discard, turn 2 Tidehollow, turn 3 Knight or GSZ Goyf...would that be too slow? Maybe drop Knight to 2 instead and run 2 Tidehollows.

[Koplinchen]

All this issue of Tidehollow Sculler seems to be more like a wishful thining to me. It is a nice card, no doubt but it is absolutely terrible in real magic. There are so many better cards to play.

It used to be playable when you could vial it in after draw or in response to his fetchland. When you could protect him with Mother of Runes and seriously equip him.

What is his job in your deck now? Be an awful discard (since your opp will get the card back soon) that is mana+color intensive or a pathetic creature that can't do anything. There is no justification for this guy. Play either discard or Canonist, Hymn, Teeg in the board.

[dballard]

All this issue of Tidehollow Sculler seems to be more like a wishful thining to me. It is a nice card, no doubt but it is absolutely terrible in real magic. There are so many better cards to play.

It used to be playable when you could vial it in after draw or in response to his fetchland. When you could protect him with Mother of Runes and seriously equip him.

What is his job in your deck now? Be an awful discard (since your opp will get the card back soon) that is mana+color intensive or a pathetic creature that can't do anything. There in justification for this guy. Play either discard or Canonist, Hymn, Teeg in the board.

I absolutely hate it when someone trashes a card that someone else has had success with. I wonder Koplinchen, have you ever tested the card or is this simply your opinion? If we all agreed on what is the absolute best build wouldn't we all be playing it? If you're gonna bash it at least offer some theory behind it or some alternatives.

[Kich867]

All this issue of Tidehollow Sculler seems to be more like a wishful thining to me. It is a nice card, no doubt but it is absolutely terrible in real magic. There are so many better cards to play.

It used to be playable when you could vial it in after draw or in response to his fetchland. When you could protect him with Mother of Runes and seriously equip him.

What is his job in your deck now? Be an awful discard (since your opp will get the card back soon) that is mana+color intensive or a pathetic creature that can't do anything. There in justification for this guy. Play either discard or Canonist, Hymn, Teeg in the board.

I would disagree, especially in a combo heavy-meta. He's a thoughtseize on a stick that -doesn't- hurt you. At worst, he demands an answer as your opponent wants their card back, at best, he applies pressure while keeping your opponent off of something important.

Show and tell doesn't have a great answer to it, you exile their emrakul, they're left with gas but no business and they have no way to remove him. He's there as maindeck flexible combo hate. Also, it's uncommon, but the chance of your opponent not knowing how to play around him can absolutely blow them out, if they kill him in response to the trigger you exile a card from their hand permanently.

[Sughayyer]

I played a few games without top. I didn't have consistence, I thing I need to either use green sun zenith or a different sfm package (maybe run 4 of her and 3 equipments?). I'm just loving lingering souls, but sometimes I miss big beatsticks (though I'm running goyf). I feel that if my opponent is able to seize the game, I can't "come back" like in the early days. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong?

[AggroSteve]

i tested tidehollow sculler as a 2 off for a bit now, and i have to admit he is way stronger than i anticipaded

obviously he does the best in combo matchups, where they have now way to get their card back

but he also is doing rather fine in other matchups, even against removalheavy decks, simply because he either keeps their removal away from himself and pings the opponent a bit, or he might even become target of a removal, so they get their important spell back,.... in this case its one removal spell less that can be pointet to confidant/goyf/knight

i think he might even be worth testing as a 4-off in addition to the standard creatures we used to run

he is capable of slowing down other decks, and in this case we have it easier to win

one thing i was wondering about..... if you sac tidehollow sculler with therapy for example, does the opponent get the card back before therapy takes effekt....... obviously only good if you know the opponent has a 2nd card in hand (same as sculler removed)
does therapy make them discard both cards in this case or not?

i really recomend testing him, he is fun to play, and opponents often do not know how to react to him properly, or when to react to him

[.Ix]

I absolutely hate it when someone trashes a card that someone else has had success with. I wonder Koplinchen, have you ever tested the card or is this simply your opinion? If we all agreed on what is the absolute best build wouldn't we all be playing it? If you're gonna bash it at least offer some theory behind it or some alternatives.

There's a lot of that on this forum, unfortunately. :l

Tidehollow is at least a one-for-one. He looks meh, but it's pretty decent value. If your opponent wastes time just trying to find a way to get the card back, then he's already better than a plain old one-for-one.

[damionblackgear]

if you sac tidehollow sculler with therapy for example, does the opponent get the card back before therapy takes effekt....... obviously only good if you know the opponent has a 2nd card in hand (same as sculler removed)
does therapy make them discard both cards in this case or not?

Therapy is a sorcery so you can't actually sac Sculler to it until the Sculler's ability has finished resolving. So, you'll give that card back. This is important because you're giving it back after you've look at their hand and before you name a card with Therapy (name on resolution). So, you can call the card you took. :wink:

Basically, if you want to get that more bang for you buck, you need Sculler to change zones (die, bouce, phase, or exile) before his/her ability resolves.

[Kich867]

I played a few games without top. I didn't have consistence, I thing I need to either use green sun zenith or a different sfm package (maybe run 4 of her and 3 equipments?). I'm just loving lingering souls, but sometimes I miss big beatsticks (though I'm running goyf). I feel that if my opponent is able to seize the game, I can't "come back" like in the early days. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong?

After a lot of play I've actually been not loving Lingering Souls. It's rarely what it is for a deck like Esperblade to me. I find it's often just a stalling tactic while I durdle to find a Knight. So I dropped them for Green Sun's Zenith. I should be coming into a good bit of money soon, so I may try and swing some Thoughtseizes.

Though I'm fairly ambitious, and I want a playable build for Aggro Loam, Reanimator, and The Rock. Loam I'm just missing the lands for, Reanimator I could use another U. Sea and a pair of Grizzlebees. And for The Rock, I'm really interested in testing out Tidehollow Sculler's and be a bit more proactive with the deck. This gives me 9 discard effects and 3 of them have a body. If I can find some cheap on ebay or something I may replace Duress with Thoughtseize.

// List: 60
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Swords to Plowshares

3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek

3x Sylvan Library

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrublands
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest

// Sideboard: 15
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Batterskull
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Hymn to Tourach

[Sughayyer]

@kich867
regarding souls, it works better with sfm package. I actually replaced kotr for them, but this was due to the fact that souls is good to have against bug, and sfm is good against burn - when these two sum up to 4-6 of 18 decks in the metagame that matters a lot. Also, the aggro match is good either way and combo is combo...
But tidehollow seems too interesting not to test.

[Sughayyer]

I have to split the posts, otherwise my phone will cut them :(
continuing, my real problem is that I often find myself in such a scenario: both of us without hand, board clear, one (or two) lingering souls used up, and a almost dead opponent. Then, I brick in lands/discard spells and my opp recovers.

[Kich867]

@kich867
regarding souls, it works better with sfm package. I actually replaced kotr for them, but this was due to the fact that souls is good to have against bug, and sfm is good against burn - when these two sum up to 4-6 of 18 decks in the metagame that matters a lot. Also, the aggro match is good either way and combo is combo...
But tidehollow seems too interesting not to test.

In my particular meta, it's not uncommon to see Reanimator, Show and Tell, and Hypergenesis, all of which sort of require Karakas to answer effectively. Mainly, this build is looking to have a better combo matchup than what I've previously been doing. I think part of that involves having Knight be a sexy-land-tutor for Karakas / Maze of Ith. Lingering Souls helps in no particular matchup I can think of that Stoneforge and Tidehollow Sculler don't also operate pretty well in. Bug also gets pretty rocked by Sword of Feast and Famine. Their Abrupt Decays are a little overloaded in this matchup. Knight + Bog + Deathrites will also keep them off of tombstalker. BUG Tempo right now is just absolutely backbreaking against a lot of decks though, the whole Delver + Flip into Hymn with Daze / Force backup is just fucking game ending.

[Barbed Blightning]

In my particular meta, it's not uncommon to see Reanimator, Show and Tell, and Hypergenesis, all of which sort of require Karakas to answer effectively. Mainly, this build is looking to have a better combo matchup than what I've previously been doing. I think part of that involves having Knight be a sexy-land-tutor for Karakas / Maze of Ith. Lingering Souls helps in no particular matchup I can think of that Stoneforge and Tidehollow Sculler don't also operate pretty well in. Bug also gets pretty rocked by Sword of Feast and Famine. Their Abrupt Decays are a little overloaded in this matchup. Knight + Bog + Deathrites will also keep them off of tombstalker. BUG Tempo right now is just absolutely backbreaking against a lot of decks though, the whole Delver + Flip into Hymn with Daze / Force backup is just fucking game ending.

Preaching to the choir there, buddy

[Sughayyer]

Kich I just looked at your list. You managed to fit it all, but no lilianas. I'm traumatized by "no lilianas": on the last tournament I played I met 2 guys playing BG NO-Pro... And it was awful...

[Kich867]

Kich I just looked at your list. You managed to fit it all, but no lilianas. I'm traumatized by "no lilianas": on the last tournament I played I met 2 guys playing BG NO-Pro... And it was awful...

Liliana's were consciously cut as they'd be the only source of double black and I find myself very, very rarely wanting to discard any cards. I usually just used her to -2 and thats it.

I would love to get her back in there, but gsz is too important and there's really nothing left to cut for her. She definitely just takes some games over though. Maybe ill try and squeak two of her in though.

[Koplinchen]

I absolutely hate it when someone trashes a card that someone else has had success with. I wonder Koplinchen, have you ever tested the card or is this simply your opinion? If we all agreed on what is the absolute best build wouldn't we all be playing it? If you're gonna bash it at least offer some theory behind it or some alternatives.

I am sorry I did not mean to be offensive. I just wanted to be brief and clear.

I did play Tidehollow Sculler of course. Not in Rock but in the BW Tempo where he was really good for obvious reasons. (equipment, Mother, Vial)

Tidehollow Sculler is playable. He is descent (not good) against combo. The good thing is that you can see his hand and then you can hit him hard with Therapy. Another thing is that you can attack (against combo or with equipment) In theory you can blow out Show and Tell Omniscience version when you steal his wish or Emrakul.

The bad thing is that usually he just sits there and can not attack or block. Sometimes you are waiting to be blown out by his removal into THE card. For 2mana he is slow against deck he is good against and even slower in the other matchups. The fact he is an artifact doesen't help either.

Tom

[Esper3k]

I've messed around with Tidehollow Sculler some as well. He was alright in the sideboard mainly as a complement to my already fairly heavy maindeck discard suite (4x Thoughtseize, 3x Cabal Therapy in a Lingering Souls build).

I do agree he's pretty bad against all those midrangy decks, especially Jund. Usually he's going to eat a removal spell and usually isn't going to be a very effective attacker much less a good blocker. Punishing Fires is a particular nightmare for this guy to fight against.

However, against combo he's been alright in the sideboard since they usually don't have a way to get rid of him so he's just like a free discard spell on a 2/2 body.

[dballard]

I am sorry I did not mean to be offensive. I just wanted to be brief and clear.

I did play Tidehollow Sculler of course. Not in Rock but in the BW Tempo where he was really good for obvious reasons. (equipment, Mother, Vial)

Tidehollow Sculler is playable. He is descent (not good) against combo. The good thing is that you can see his hand and then you can hit him hard with Therapy. Another thing is that you can attack (against combo or with equipment) In theory you can blow out Show and Tell Omniscience version when you steal his wish or Emrakul.

The bad thing is that usually he just sits there and can not attack or block. Sometimes you are waiting to be blown out by his removal into THE card. For 2mana he is slow against deck he is good against and even slower in the other matchups. The fact he is an artifact doesen't help either.

Tom

No you didn't offend, I think your post just set me off because I've seen a string of similar posts trashing a card but not offering much insight. The above post however is great. You offered first hand experience with some insight and strategy which helps sell your opinion much better. Thanks and no hard feelings.

[damionblackgear]

I did play Tidehollow Sculler of course. Not in Rock but in the BW Tempo where he was really good for obvious reasons. (equipment, Mother, Vial)

I'm all for testing cards in other decks and I think it's a great way to find out if things work. I am against testing a card(s) in one deck and passing judgement on them in another. Each deck has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses which allow it to support each potential addition in different and a lot of the time unique ways. You should always try cards in the deck that they're going to be replacing cards to figure out if they work; don't pass judgement based on another deck.

tl;dr - One man's trash is another man's treasure. See if it's treasure here before deciding it's trash from the opinions of other(s) there.

That being said, I am currently using Hymn over Sculler. Sculler always ended up disappearing (typically from Burning Wish into Pyroclasm) and the cards would go back. While that may have just been my bad luck, them having the cards in the first place was the issue. I, however, am still running Mox and have gone back to 3 SFM as well. 3-4 Deathrite did not work well for how I expect the deck to function. They (Sculler and Shaman) are working well for other people.

[Petree]

I completely understand he wasn't trying to be offense, lay of the brothers grill....

Ian, I was doing the same thing until i realized that I actually like having more bodies to put in play and drs isnt completely dead if i draw it late compared to the mox where it would be a dead draw or didn't matter no more. Then I tried playing 2/2 split of drs and mox then 3/3 and i liked it but way too many of my utilities disappeared and I didn't like that also. I mean you can try it out. I will say that I have started playing stf again also just because batterskull is a bitch to deal with lol ask any jund player, bug player or even esper, ant players and burn players also have a hard time dealing with it.

My creature base

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shamen
3 Knight of Reliquary
3 Tarmorgoyfs
2 Stoneforge Mystic

[Mr. Safety]

I hope to keep this talk about Sculler alive, because I have had some great success using it. To summarize why I like it:

1) It's pure tempo, regardless of what happens. Even if all you do is delay them for a turn or make them waste a removal/Spell Snare, he's got value. Answered, he's tempo. Unanswered he's tempo AND pressure.

2) When you place him next to other, more significant threats he tends to stick around. Do they kill Bob or Sculler? Goyf or Sculler? Deathrite or Sculler? I have never viewed him in a vaccuum, you can't play him that way. He's a team-player, making turns where you can combine him with other strong plays *amazing*. Too often people view disruptive plays purely in how they operate alone. If i'm a boxer, I don't count on every punch being a haymaker. Sometimes I put a combination of swings together that add up to more than a haymaker. You can call it synergy if you want, but honestly Sculler can be good if you know how to use him.

3) He fills in the 2-mana hand disruption curve nicely between Thoughtseize and Liliana. Hymn to Tourach also does this, but Hymn to tourach sucks ass when top-decked in the late game. Sculler top-decked in the late game becomes a Grizzly Bear if their hand is empty. If it isn't, you might be able to establish a little bit of inevitability because you are denying them a card and applying pressure.

4) Reminder: combo-heavy metagame. He excells against most of the combo decks I face, and does decently against the fair decks, too.

5) So many people miss, or ignore, this comment I have made about him (both here and elsewhere): if he isn't good in the matchup, you now have an easy 3 flex spots to utilize for your sideboard. In a deck already crammed to the brim with good stuff plays vying for space, it's refreshing to have a black & white (pun intended) decision that will help you work your sideboard.

That's where I'm at right now with Sculler. In both tournaments i played them, I loved them.

EDIT: someone mentioned missing consistency when dropping SDT's...I'm in the same boat, I worked one into my maindeck by dropping the Jitte to the sideboard again. I am enjoying it, even as a singleton, alongside the 2 Libraries. Now I just need to close a few trades/deals so I can get more Goyfs into the deck. I want at least 2, but 3 would be ideal I think.

[Sughayyer]

I agree with Mr safety on the point that disrupt does not play alone. A suceful hymn to tourach will do nothing if you don't have a good follow-up. Same goes to sculler, in the sense that if you are using him for a 1 to 1 trade that may eventually beat if the board is clear, he is a "deluxe thoughtseize" - for the same cost, gerrard's veredict does more. But if you contextualize him in a situation where your opponent can't afford to find a removal to deal with him, he is great.

[Barbed Blightning]

Personally, I adore Sculler; I think I will cut my Inquisition slots for two of him. And the synergy argument is totally correct: we aren't fishbowling, we play against opponents who interact with our deck.

Even if he eats removal, I say sculler is still great. And against non-combo decks I would take their removal anyway.

[Sughayyer]

Splitting posts due to phone limitations...
Just a remark about the lingering souls version: there are decks that are more resistant to the attrition that this deck tries to create.... What I mean is, if we can beat decks like jund in the early stages it's ok. On the late game, we need a lot of luck. Same goes to nic-fit... On the late game, the few situations I could win was because he bricked in lands.
I'm currently searching for one of these two options: 1) finding a way to emerge from a bad situation i.e. a card that can turn tides on itself (maybe a planeswalker like elspeth on the sideboard?) OR a way to make the traditional build less susceptible to the tons of removal we are facing nowadays (after a lot of testing, sejiri steppe is a crappy card on this deck).

[damionblackgear]

I completely understand he wasn't trying to be offense, lay of the brothers grill....

Ian, I was doing the same thing until i realized that I actually like having more bodies to put in play and drs isnt completely dead if i draw it late compared to the mox where it would be a dead draw or didn't matter no more. Then I tried playing 2/2 split of drs and mox then 3/3 and i liked it but way too many of my utilities disappeared and I didn't like that also. I mean you can try it out. I will say that I have started playing stf again also just because batterskull is a bitch to deal with lol ask any jund player, bug player or even esper, ant players and burn players also have a hard time dealing with it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick on him/her. It's something that bothers me to no end, regardless of the person. That's why I always comment on it. On to the other stuff.

I haven't tried adjusting the Mox count too much. It's been either three or zero. I've felt like it'd be too many to have a 4th Mox and not enough to matter with 1 or 2. That could be interesting to test. I don't like the idea of having +4 mana fixers. That seems like too many mid-game cards that don't do enough. 5 is probably the highest I'd go and I'm not a all that comfortable with that.

I've tried all the counts of Shaman however, I've only gone up to 2 with Shaman. I'm not as big a fan as most are with the card but I think it preforms to its expectation. I find myself not wanting to take advantage of multiples as I want to do other things with my mana most of the time. I almost feel like I want a second but I didn't see it preforming better than the other things I've got right now.

The thing about the late-game is that there are enough things that help me avoid/use late-game bad draws that it usually isn't an issue. I run 7 permanent card advantage/selection pieces (Bob, Library, Top, etc) alongside 2 Liliana so be it fodder to save something else in hand or saving life from bob, mox finds a way to be useful. It's also a nice thing to bait other people's discard from time to time.

Here's my current list for reference.

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach

-----

Just a bit of my opinion on something that's being mentioned regarding combo - There is no such thing as bad discard unless their win is already on the field or you've destroyed their hand (0 cards) with Liliana on the field keeping it destroyed. We don't run burn (emergency reach) so yes a creature is a good thing, when their hand is under control. The thing is that unless you're running Liliana, have her active and, have their hand under control, no creature is enough on it's own.

Discard is a HUGE part of any combination of punches we assemble (just using the analogy, not attacking it). It's nice to have the creature but by no means is a late game draw of discard (targeted or random) bad. This is especially true if they've had a chance to potentially recover their hand from the initial discard.

All of this portion is with or without Sculler.

[KobeBryan]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick on him/her. It's something that bothers me to no end, regardless of the person. That's why I always comment on it. On to the other stuff.

I haven't tried adjusting the Mox count too much. It's been either three or zero. I've felt like it'd be too many to have a 4th Mox and not enough to matter with 1 or 2. That could be interesting to test. I don't like the idea of having +4 mana fixers. That seems like too many mid-game cards that don't do enough. 5 is probably the highest I'd go and I'm not a all that comfortable with that.

I've tried all the counts of Shaman however, I've only gone up to 2 with Shaman. I'm not as big a fan as most are with the card but I think it preforms to its expectation. I find myself not wanting to take advantage of multiples as I want to do other things with my mana most of the time. I almost feel like I want a second but I didn't see it preforming better than the other things I've got right now.

The thing about the late-game is that there are enough things that help me avoid/use late-game bad draws that it usually isn't an issue. I run 7 permanent card advantage/selection pieces (Bob, Library, Top, etc) alongside 2 Liliana so be it fodder to save something else in hand or saving life from bob, mox finds a way to be useful. It's also a nice thing to bait other people's discard from time to time.

Here's my current list for reference.

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach

-----

Just a bit of my opinion on something that's being mentioned regarding combo - There is no such thing as bad discard unless their win is already on the field or you've destroyed their hand (0 cards) with Liliana on the field keeping it destroyed. We don't run burn (emergency reach) so yes a creature is a good thing, when their hand is under control. The thing is that unless you're running Liliana, have her active and, have their hand under control, no creature is enough on it's own.

Discard is a HUGE part of any combination of punches we assemble (just using the analogy, not attacking it). It's nice to have the creature but by no means is a late game draw of discard (targeted or random) bad. This is especially true if they've had a chance to potentially recover their hand from the initial discard.

All of this portion is with or without Sculler.


If you are just using 1 goyf, why not use scavenging ooze. You should have that for life gain, for gy removal, and to battle deathrite shamans.

[sdematt]

If you're looking to go big and you don't have to worry about Punishing Fires, you just run Sigarda and/or Garruk Relentless. Relentless is a fucking tank, Abrupt Decay or not.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

If you are just using 1 goyf, why not use scavenging ooze. You should have that for life gain, for gy removal, and to battle deathrite shamans.

I've been so unhappy with Ooze's performance that I think I'd get more from Squire (this is sarcasm to express my extreme disappointment). --> This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=702692&viewfull=1#post702692) <-- should sum it up as far as words (arrows because I couldn't see the link).

[sherko7]

How's the SnT matchup with this? :) Really tempted to build this...

[Claymore]

Seems generally favorable, since you can combat their early SnT with Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Karakas. Past that they are weak to discard, and you back up the discard with pressure from Goyf or Knight to end the game before they can recover. Mainboard Liliana helps as removal against a Show and Told Emrakul.

Not sure about Omniscience Tell because I don't have experience against that deck.

[Esper3k]

Really depends on the build. Knight/Karakas is very key in the matchup (even against the Omniscience versions since they'll be dropping Emrakul or Griselbrand half the time). Liliana is also good for dealing with fatties.

Post-board, depends on your sideboard. Discard is always useful but Leyline of Sanctity is popular in those types of decks these days. Oblivion Ring is in general your best friend against Show & Tell decks. Ethersworn Canonist isn't great but does keep you from dying to Omniscience (immediately, at least).

[sdematt]

Golgari Charm, Qasali Pridemgae, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, Sigarda, and Knight are all great cards against Show and Tell, and we have access to them.

The matchup is, I'd say, pretty even.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Had some moderate success with my SFM+Lingering Souls build in casuals yesterday, tested against Esperblade and a BG Goodstuff brew. I think SFM + Lingering Souls can give you a very strong advantage versus other grindy, attrition decks. Sometimes t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Stoneforge + Batterskull just won on the spot. Other games, I had to rely on Lingering Souls and DRS to get me there, allowing me to deal "damage" while commiting very little to the board. I really don't think I'll be going back to KoTR + GSZ unless the meta turns to be less grindy and more combo.

[Chatto]

@ Arsenal: could you post your list? I'm very curious :)

[Arsenal]

It's a few pages back, but this is what I'm rolling with:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

[Mr. Safety]

How's the SnT matchup with this? :) Really tempted to build this...

Rape their hand, GG. I have played 2 tournament matches against SnT/Omniscience, and I haven't dropped a game yet. One more place that Sculler shines. Sideboard in Surgical Extraction and Gaddock Teeg for the Petals of Insight chain.

Sneak Attack is a different animal though, but it operates the same for the most part. Make sure you have something for permanents like Pulse/Vindicate/Pridemage, and have decent access to it. If it were in my meta, I'd be playing a Pridemage in the board.

[Mr. Safety]

Splitting posts due to phone limitations...
Just a remark about the lingering souls version: there are decks that are more resistant to the attrition that this deck tries to create.... What I mean is, if we can beat decks like jund in the early stages it's ok. On the late game, we need a lot of luck. Same goes to nic-fit... On the late game, the few situations I could win was because he bricked in lands.
I'm currently searching for one of these two options: 1) finding a way to emerge from a bad situation i.e. a card that can turn tides on itself (maybe a planeswalker like elspeth on the sideboard?) OR a way to make the traditional build less susceptible to the tons of removal we are facing nowadays (after a lot of testing, sejiri steppe is a crappy card on this deck).

NO-Pro in the board is my solution. Just putting that out there. I didn't pull the trigger on it during the last tournament, but I definately will for the next one. Trade 1-for-1 against attrition decks like Jund/Nic-Fit, then get your Proggy in for 2 turns and win. It's rough with Bobs, but I have been siding out Bobs for NO-Pro in testing.

[Kpicco]

For SnT I've been using a second karakas + 2 orings in the side and my new personal favorite SB Tech:

Crop Rotation! So the cards known, and it isn't new, but I really enjoy it. I've beaten ANT's past in flames kill countless times with an instant bojuka bog. Works well to get rid of dredge's engine and get your karakas for SnT

[Sughayyer]

@ safety

I like NO, but I have very few green creatures. As I said before, lately I've been playing with souls+mystic. To go the hydra route, I'd have to add zenith, arbor, etc. Unless I make a transformative sideboard, but then I think I'll dead lose to high tide (and there were 2 last time... It seems all the decks I don't want to play against come in pairs)

[Mukkor]

Looking for help with the sideboard of my SFM + Souls list (plus the rest of the list, but I think it's otherwise pretty down pat at this point). The sideboard is a remnant of when it was B/W and I'm sure Green gives some fancy answers that I don't have.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte


My meta is mostly Wasteland-y decks like Jund and RUG Delver, with relatively high proportions of Show and Tell, Burn, and Miracles. Other combo decks are around, but Show and Tell decks are everywhere.

[sdematt]

Played this tonight to a first place finish:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sylvan Library

--BOARD--

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari charm
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Round 1: Gavin with Jund

Game one I keep a loose hand with Goyf, Library, Thoughtseize, and 4 lands. I know he's on Jund, so I figure if I can have stable mana development, I'll be okay. This game goes back and forth, but he pulls away when he kills my Library and I draw into nothing.

-3 Thoughtseize
- Cabal Therapy
+1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
+1 Ulvenwald Tracker
+1 Jitte
+2 Deed
+1 Sculler

I lead with a good hand and Sculler away his Hymn to Tourach, then drop Library, Goyf, Knight. He dies VERY quickly because he can't aim his removal at Sculler, and by the time he does, the card didn't matter anymore. Sigarda landing means he scoops.

Game 3 is a long grindy game with Jund. I keep a one-lander, Fetching for Forest into DRS. He Hymns me, taking DRS and Goyf. I draw a land and drop Tracker and Library. He kills Library. We go back and forth and I Wasteland him twice. I start to pump out Lingering Souls, but he drops double Obstinate Baloth. Knight joins the party and Tracker rapes his team. But, I make a play mistake and use DRS for mana and kill my own Knight accidentally. Oops. I win against his second Baloth with many Souls tokens swarming and chumping.

1-0

Round 2: Aaron with Dredge

This game is pretty good. I start with DRS and go into Scavenging Ooze and proceed to eat all his Dredgers. He dies/scoops.

-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Dark confidant
-3 random shaves
+2 Deed
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Tidehollow Sculler

This game is a back and forth because I'm screwed on mana. I have to Surgical his Ichorid when he double Cabal Therapies me, but I drop Sculler and take his Breakthrough. He Firestorms away my Ooze and a Deathrite Shaman (boo!) but then I come back with Gaddock Teeg to lock him out of Dread Return. He tries to beat with Zombies, but I throw things under the bus to take his Bridges. Eventually, 5/6 Goyfs start to pound his face while Teeg keeps Dread Return down. He scoops.

2-0

Round 3: Max with NO Elves

We draw this round since I wanted to go home early, but it's usually back and forth. I board well for this since I knew he was going to be there this week. Charm, Persecution, Deed, Jitte, Swords, Decay, Teeg, and Sculler become VERY good at this. As long as he doesn't Craterhoof me too early, I'm usually okay. Charm/Persecution helps until I can sweep with Deed.


All in all, Sculler wasn't a bad card, but the problem is that he sticks around with nothing to do if they have creatures abound. However, he's a MAJOR annoyance and still a clock. He's also a dude to sac to Liliana if need be.

[Chatto]

The SFM+Soul lists seem awfully low on discard and (for me also) on removal. How well has the performed for you, Mukkor? I had a similair list, but dropped the Souls on favour of removal/ discard.

@ Matt: nice result and good additional insight information on Sculler :)

[Sir_tokealot]

hey i'm trying a new take on the rock, or at least rock colors. i've piloted with much success at local legacies taking first multiple times and even sweeping 2-0 the entire day.

4 deathrite shaman
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares

4 dark confidant
4 stoneforge mystic
4 abrupt decay
3 bitterblossom

3 lingering souls
3 lilliana of the veil
1 maelstrom pulse

1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

2 chrome mox
1 mox diamond

4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
2 savannah
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath

very explosive with moxes. tons of removal. sideboard varies. i usually run some number of thalia and hymn to tourach for combo. +4 graveyard hate cards and whatever else tuned to the metagame.

[Arsenal]

Looking for help with the sideboard of my SFM + Souls list (plus the rest of the list, but I think it's otherwise pretty down pat at this point). The sideboard is a remnant of when it was B/W and I'm sure Green gives some fancy answers that I don't have.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte


My meta is mostly Wasteland-y decks like Jund and RUG Delver, with relatively high proportions of Show and Tell, Burn, and Miracles. Other combo decks are around, but Show and Tell decks are everywhere.

In a grindy meta, sfm + souls is the way to go in my opinion as that trumps a lot of the fair strategies. However, it's pretty bad in a combo meta, especially Show and Tell decks, as you want KotR + Karakas + GSZ + combo hate bears. My meta is grindy as fuck, so sfm + souls is the shit. It may not be in your meta.

[bob2008]

Hello Sorcerers,
I am working on a Junk list for a few weeks now.
This is what has come up so far.
Another suggestion for a grindy meta...
What do you guys think about it?

4 Ling. Souls
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 GSZ

3 Sylvan Library
4 Abr. Decay
4 Swords to Plow
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

21 lands (4 Waste, 1 Forrest, 1 Swamp, 5 Duals, 1 Karakas, 9 Fetch)


Sideboard:

3 O-Ring (against Show and Tell)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY + Combo)
1 Jitte (Aggro)
2 flex slots (Zealous Persecution...?)


Opinions?

[Sughayyer]

Hello Sorcerers,
I am working on a Junk list for a few weeks now.
This is what has come up so far.
Another suggestion for a grindy meta...
What do you guys think about it?

4 Ling. Souls
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 GSZ

3 Sylvan Library
4 Abr. Decay
4 Swords to Plow
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

21 lands (4 Waste, 1 Forrest, 1 Swamp, 5 Duals, 1 Karakas, 9 Fetch)


Sideboard:

3 O-Ring (against Show and Tell)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY + Combo)
1 Jitte (Aggro)
2 flex slots (Zealous Persecution...?)


Opinions?

You could exchange mother of runes and zenith for 3 stoneforge mystics and 2 or 3 pieces of equipment. Reasoning: lingering souls is already good against removal infested/grindy decks, and there are no "key creatures" (aside of bob) to be protected by mother (and you'll also have easier starting hands when all your openers only ask for one color). Stoneforge strategy is usually poor vs combo, but goyf and discard is not :D
So instead of relying in creatures to do the combo-hating (tegg, canonist) you could add more discard spells that will also help against control decks.

One question: isn't karakas kinda lost in that without Knight of the Reliquary?

[Arsenal]

Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.

[Sughayyer]

Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.
yeah I think it's a meta call on that one. Against many decks - and on a tokens mirror - zealous is an one-sided wrath of got, instant and for 2 mana :D when maverick was rampant it won all the games where it was cast (when + ran BW, i used 3 main deck, but these are different times).

About the discard suite, since you run souls, give cabal therapy a try. It's better that most people think, just need a little pratice. It will play well with your seizes.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I've debating running Therapy as I do run Souls and it gives me an outlet to kill my own Bob if necessary. I think I'll test that out. Not really crazy about running a singleton Library to make room, but I don't want to cut anything else. I always viewed Library as Bob #5 and #6, so I think it should be okay to just run "5" Bobs, especially if I'll have added discard to protect him.

[Mukkor]

The SFM+Soul lists seem awfully low on discard and (for me also) on removal. How well has the performed for you, Mukkor? I had a similair list, but dropped the Souls on favour of removal/ discard.

@ Matt: nice result and good additional insight information on Sculler :)

It's been doing fine. The major changes from B/W Stoneblade were the addition of Tarmogoyf, and just having him in the deck helps me close out long games so much better. I had 4 Seize and 3 Therapy in my list but I had to make some tough cuts to get Tarmogoyf in. 4 has been enough so far, the 5th is probably still good and a 6th warrants testing, but I can't find the slots.


In a grindy meta, sfm + souls is the way to go in my opinion as that trumps a lot of the fair strategies. However, it's pretty bad in a combo meta, especially Show and Tell decks, as you want KotR + Karakas + GSZ + combo hate bears. My meta is grindy as fuck, so sfm + souls is the shit. It may not be in your meta.

I feel like my meta is for the most part grindy, but that I should have a very good plan for Show and Tell in the sideboard. That's what Humility and O-Ring are for. If KOTR plan gives me free wins against show and tell and keeps my grindy matchups similar I would consider switching but I don't feel like it would. Additionally, I would have to reduce my basic count, and being able to cast all of my spells off of basics has won me many games.


Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.

Zealous has been pretty good, but not uncuttable. Now that I have Tarmogoyf to push through damage I probably don't need them.

Darkblast sounds great. What matchups do you bring it in against? What creatures do you intend to kill with it when you cast it?


yeah I think it's a meta call on that one. Against many decks - and on a tokens mirror - zealous is an one-sided wrath of got, instant and for 2 mana :D when maverick was rampant it won all the games where it was cast (when + ran BW, i used 3 main deck, but these are different times).

About the discard suite, since you run souls, give cabal therapy a try. It's better that most people think, just need a little pratice. It will play well with your seizes.

Agreed on all points. Zealous crushes old Maverick and the Souls mirror, but those days are gone. What should I run in their stead?

[Arsenal]

Darkblast comes in versus almost any deck that isn't grossly unfair. Esperblade, mirror, all tribal decks, Delver decks, etc. are all decks you'd want to see Darkblast. If you're running Library, Darkblast gives you a way to get rid off chaff off the top. It won't blow the opponent out like Zealous can, but unless they have gy removal, Darkblast effectively blanks your opponent's creatures and makes your goyfs better than theirs.

[Mr. Safety]

@ safety

I like NO, but I have very few green creatures. As I said before, lately I've been playing with souls+mystic. To go the hydra route, I'd have to add zenith, arbor, etc. Unless I make a transformative sideboard, but then I think I'll dead lose to high tide (and there were 2 last time... It seems all the decks I don't want to play against come in pairs)

Green fetches, Dryad Arbor. You're welcome.

[Mukkor]

Darkblast comes in versus almost any deck that isn't grossly unfair. Esperblade, mirror, all tribal decks, Delver decks, etc. are all decks you'd want to see Darkblast. If you're running Library, Darkblast gives you a way to get rid off chaff off the top. It won't blow the opponent out like Zealous can, but unless they have gy removal, Darkblast effectively blanks your opponent's creatures and makes your goyfs better than theirs.

This does sound good, I'll try cutting Zealous for it. Thanks.

[sdematt]

Zealous does more against Tribal though (Combo Elves in particular), that'd why i'm on the Zealous/Golgari plan.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

[sdematt]

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

There's no distinct thread for RIP U/W or traditional U/w Miracles, so I don't REALLY think we need one. Plus, with 3 separate threads, we'd have so little discussion in each. I think I'd rather keep it under one umbrella. Even though we all run different versions, it's not like we cannot help each other out with our builds.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

Yeah, it's been tried. Almost every variant that's ever tried to branch has been forced back into this thread. Nic Fit escapes... which will always confuse me.

[crow_mw]

Yeah, it's been tried. Almost every variant that's ever tried to branch has been forced back into this thread. Nic Fit escapes... which will always confuse me.

While initial Nic Fit decks might have been Rock with Explorer nowadays the Nic Fit is nothing like Rock and we are closer to Jund than to them. Needless to say - they run a single thread for at least three very distinct variants of the deck (GBW Rector, RGB Scapewish, BUG Deadeye).

[Kich867]

So, I was actually really inspired by a list posted in the New and Developmental section discussing the possibility of abusing Armageddon and Life from the Loam in a sort of Rock control shell, and this idea appealed greatly to me.

This is just a rough draft of the concept, I don't think it has to really stray that far away from what people would expect from a Rock list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Armageddon
3x Life from the Loam
3x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek

23-24 Lands

-- This leaves me with 1-2 slots open. Internally, I've nicknamed it "Ragnarock" because I'm clever. I'm not really sure what I want them to be. The idea would be to dig for an Armageddon, clear the way for it with the ~8 discard effects, and bomb them with it knowing that I'll recover substantially better than they will with the power of Loam, Deathrite Shamans, and Library--on top of having a better way to abuse Liliana via LFTL.

I'm thinking 2x GSZ with an Arbor in the land count and a teeg/ooze side sounds pretty good. That'll help accelerate me to 4 mana for Armageddon. This also ups the theoretical creature count by a bit, making it easier to find Deathrites who will be very important throughout the game. I wouldn't even care much about eating my own lands, once an armageddon resolves knights are arbitrarily large.

Part of me wants to also find room for Terravores but that may be a little too cute and would cut into important other slots.

[Leto]

Wouldn't it be better to play with Mox Diamond, as it leaves u with one more mana source after geddon?

[Kich867]

Wouldn't it be better to play with Mox Diamond, as it leaves u with one more mana source after geddon?

This is something I was considering, but this requires upping the land count, which cuts into the deck substantially. So it's definitely an option, I'm just not sure immediately how this would work. And similarly, I'm at work, so I don't have a lot of time to think about it. When I get out though I'll look to tweak numbers. Moxen would definitely help and be very, very silly in the deck.

The hard part about moxen though, is that you have to make cuts somewhere. The ultimate goal being that I can disrupt and accelerate, then blow them out with Armageddon and be built to handle that.

So I think the real spot is Deathrite Shaman VS Mox Diamond.
Pro Con list:
Deathrite:
+Isn't card disadvantage
+Can produce a clock
+Isn't reliant on a Loam in hand to be stellar
+Helps fight Graveyard strategies maindeck
+Helps fight burn strategies maindeck
+Can be tutored with GSZ.
-Easier to remove
-Less explosive
-Reliant on a land being in the GY to ramp.

Mox:
+Allows for explosive starts
+Synergizes better with Loam
+Will survive better after an Armageddon
+Turns unneeded utility lands into rainbow lands
-Card disadvantage

Deathrite seems better to me for the role of accelerant, given that the deck is threat light as it is and the bonus of being able to help fight Reanimator and Dredge, + Snapcaster.

[AggroSteve]

i do not think that mox diamond compedes with deathrite shaman for a strategy like this, actually i think you could run both as you do not have to use the full set of moxen
maybe a 3/3 split would be viable, and in this case 23 lands is fine as well.
i have played mox diamonds for a long time before i swithed to deathrite shaman, at this time i was using the full set of mox diamond and 23 lands, and it was not as antisynergistic as people might think, as moxen were just used to maybe get a 1st turn hymn or a 1st turn confidant or maybe goyf out on the field, the rest of the moxen were used for lilianas +1 ability most of the time as they are dead in the mid-lategame.

if you really want to get the armageddon plan to work i think you should run mox diamonds in your spare slots, and maybe 2 manlands in your manabase, so your virtual creature could would increase with the manlands, that generate lots of card advantage together with loam, as they are virtually immortal

[Arsenal]

As I live in Milwaukee, work downtown Milwaukee, I suppose it's only right that I goto SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I'm torn between bringing my SFM Junk deck that has been doing well at my weeklies and RUG Delver, which I feel will give me a much, much better chance at fighting the combo decks I anticipate showing up at the Open. I'm leaning towards Junk, just because I think a board control, midrange grindy deck will do well in the early rounds. Plus, I like playing it more than RUG Delver.

Other than MOAR DISCARD, what is the plan for the various combo matchups? Just cross your fingers and hope for the best? My maindeck and SB both are geared towards destroying all the other "fair" decks in the format (Esperblade, Jund, etc), but I pretty much have nothing against combo.

[Kich867]

As I live in Milwaukee, work downtown Milwaukee, I suppose it's only right that I goto SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I'm torn between bringing my SFM Junk deck that has been doing well at my weeklies and RUG Delver, which I feel will give me a much, much better chance at fighting the combo decks I anticipate showing up at the Open. I'm leaning towards Junk, just because I think a board control, midrange grindy deck will do well in the early rounds. Plus, I like playing it more than RUG Delver.

Other than MOAR DISCARD, what is the plan for the various combo matchups? Just cross your fingers and hope for the best? My maindeck and SB both are geared towards destroying all the other "fair" decks in the format (Esperblade, Jund, etc), but I pretty much have nothing against combo.

Discard, Sword of Feast and Famine main deck, and a Karakas / Bog in the land selection for Knight. If you ever get SOFAF online most combo decks can't recover.

[Arsenal]

Other than discard, the other options seem incredibly slow in dealing with combo. I did like someone's suggestion of Sculler as it's disruption + a beater all rolled into one (like Teeg, Canonist, etc). More 2cc hatebears + more 1cc discard seems fast enough. 3cc options, although more powerful, just look on paper to be really slow. Unless I lead with DRS, tapping out on turn 3 to drop KotR just seems terrible.

[Kich867]

Other than discard, the other options seem incredibly slow in dealing with combo. I did like someone's suggestion of Sculler as it's disruption + a beater all rolled into one (like Teeg, Canonist, etc). More 2cc hatebears + more 1cc discard seems fast enough. 3cc options, although more powerful, just look on paper to be really slow. Unless I lead with DRS, tapping out on turn 3 to drop KotR just seems terrible.

I'm currently running this list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sylvan Library
3x Lilliana of the Veil

3x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

some lands

The scullers have been super nuts every time I see them. And SOFAF is godlike. All told it's 10 discard effects that curve out into each other and one of them is a body. Going Inquisition > Tidehollow > Liliana is a stupidly back-breaking play against combo.

[Esper3k]

Again, depends on the combo matchup you're looking to fight.

Show & Tell decks: Oblivion Ring is probably your best card here, especially against the OmniTell lists.
Storm: Teeg / Canonist (depending on if you're running GSZ or an eTutor board) are strong here. Thorn of Amethyst is also good.
Dredge/Reanimator: Scavenging Ooze, Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Bojuka Bog etc. Take your pick.

Essentially against combo, discard is there to slow them down until you can get a hate bear / real answer out. The reason you need to run more discard in the board is because it's absolutely critical to disrupt them early (obviously, the faster the combo deck, the more critical this becomes) so we have to increase our density of discard to get that early disruption going.

[Arsenal]

This is my current list. My meta has Jund, Esperblade, UR Delver, Maverick, RiP Miracles, and me (Junk). As such, my deck and sideboard is going on the "I can't be faster than you, so I'm going to outgrind you" plan. I realize that I'm incredibly soft to combo, but I've been beating the fair decks pretty handedly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

[Esper3k]

@Arsenal: I actually played a list similar to yours for awhile (I called it the "F you, I'm playing all the awesome 2-drops" plan). Since the maindeck is really powerful against the fair decks, I'd recommend loading up your sideboard with anti-combo hate. I'm talking like 10+ cards for combo.

[sdematt]

This is my current list. My meta has Jund, Esperblade, UR Delver, Maverick, RiP Miracles, and me (Junk). As such, my deck and sideboard is going on the "I can't be faster than you, so I'm going to outgrind you" plan. I realize that I'm incredibly soft to combo, but I've been beating the fair decks pretty handedly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast


With a list like this, you'll certainly do well against the grindy matchups, but Combo might be a pickle for you. I think with a mix of Cannonist, 1 CMC discard, and pressure, you should be fine. Sculler could be very good, since you can take creatures (Emrakul, etc.) OR spells and be a clock. Another possible inclusion is Hide and Seek if you know you're playing against TES specifically. You also don't have Green Sun's Zenith, which makes Gaddock good, but less awesome. Your 1-of Inquistion could look more like Cabal Therapy, maybe running 3 Thoughtseize 2 Therapy.

I think your sideboard could look a little more like:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Darkblast
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage (Cage is going to be better against Dredge, Tin Fins, etc.) T1 Tutor into T2 Cage is tech.
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine/Light and Shadow (bringing back guys and life, as well as STP protection might be relevant. Plus, Pro-White is better than pro-Green against Maverick)
2 Cabal Therapy (since you know what you'll be playing against Games 2 and 3)
1 Choke
+2

I feel like Timely is FINE, but not excellent. I don't feel there's a ton of Mono Red burn in the general meta, but you might want it, I'm not sure. These two slots could be more combo hate, Tidehollow Sculler (also tutorable with Enlightened tutor), Surgical Extraction (also helpful against Combo), or 1-2 Sylvan Library. Library is such a house. Another Deed could be good against RIP decks, as well.

While Crucible is good, it's grindy. It does nothing against Combo. I feel like Seal of Cleansing is for Leyline of Sanctity, but how many decks are running it, are they mulling to it, etc. If you need to tutor for Seal to get Leyline, you may already by dead, since you can just go for Cannonist and start the beatdown.

I know O-ring is for Sneak and Show, so if you feel that's a thing, then go for it. I know you don't have Knights, which is also another cause for concern. However, this only works against Sneak in a limited fashion. If they drop Sneak attack off of Show and Tell, you playing Ring removes the Sneak Attack (maybe?). I have to check my timing, but both enter play at the same time, and then your trigger goes on the stack. I'm pretty sure he can put something into play before your ability resolves. Then, you can either remove the threat (which you have to or you die), leaving a Sneak Attack active. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I don't feel like it's the best answer. I'm not sure what is (beyond Karakas + discard).

-Matt

[Esper3k]

I know O-ring is for Sneak and Show, so if you feel that's a thing, then go for it. I know you don't have Knights, which is also another cause for concern. However, this only works against Sneak in a limited fashion. If they drop Sneak attack off of Show and Tell, you playing Ring removes the Sneak Attack (maybe?). I have to check my timing, but both enter play at the same time, and then your trigger goes on the stack. I'm pretty sure he can put something into play before your ability resolves. Then, you can either remove the threat (which you have to or you die), leaving a Sneak Attack active. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I don't feel like it's the best answer. I'm not sure what is (beyond Karakas + discard).

-Matt

Yeah, Sneak & Show can somewhat play around O-Ring by dropping Sneak Attack off of the Show & Tell. Your O-Ring trigger then goes on the stack (presumably targetting Sneak Attack) and they can activate Sneak Attack in response.

You can't ever get the guy they drop off of Sneak Attack with your O-Ring since they activate Sneak Attack when your O-Ring trigger is on the stack targetting Sneak Attack.

This does require them to have 4 mana instead of 3 to go off. Again, O-Ring is much better against OmniTell, but it's still really good against Sneaky Show too.

Show & Tell decks are so resilient that it's very difficult to completely shut them out with a single card, thus the need for a combination of cards like Discard + hate bears/O-Rings, etc.

I played a pair of Phyrexian Revokers for awhile too, which were ok. Again, you can name things like LED/Putrid Imp and you can hold onto it for Show & Tell decks too since if you drop it off the Show & Tell, you can name what they dropped (say Griselbrand or Sneak Attack) and it's too late for them to activate it since Revoker is an "As it enters the battlefield" ability and not a triggered ability.

[Arsenal]

That seems like a better board. I ran Seal of Cleansing to bolster the Esperblade and RiP Miracles matchup; that can definitely go. I think I'll keep O. Ring in the board as it's just so versatile and I find myself boarding it in alot. I think I'll try out Sculler in the free slots for the control and combo matchups.

[Esper3k]

Here's another sample one:

2 Cabal Therapy (I'd use Duresses if you end up putting a couple Cabal Therapy main)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction (these can come in against combo as well since we have discard)
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Krosan Grip (I like these against control and you can even bring them in against Sneak/Omni Tell if you have to)

[sdematt]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10337&iddeck=75337

A list, more traditional (but most of the Italian lists are), that won an 84-man.

-Matt

[RaZe]

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

The list I'm planning to build.


4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Dark Tutelage
3 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Duress
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

[Kich867]

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

[list]

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

I would probably not bother running tutelage, it just curves out awkwardly. I would cut them for Swords, cut a wasteland and a green sun's zenith for 2x Liliana of the Veil. I would also probably cut a Knight and Stoneforge for 2 more discard, probably Inquisition of Kozilek. In fact, I would actually swap Duresses with Inquisitions and just run 2x duress. Or 2x Cabal Therapy.

So:
-4 Dark Tutelage
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Stoneforge mystic
-1 Duress
-1 wasteland
-1 green sun's zenith

+4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Green sun and Stoneforge can work together. Though some people drop Green Sun's here in favor of Lingering Souls, which provides awesome synergy with Stoneforge Mystic and Liliana. Souls + Jitte is dumb good.

[Esper3k]

If you play Lingering Souls, you can also use Cabal Therapy instead of Duresses for hand disruption.

[Arsenal]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10337&iddeck=75337

A list, more traditional (but most of the Italian lists are), that won an 84-man.

-Matt

Only one combo deck in the top 8, the other 7 lists were grindy decks (Miracles, Blade Control, Jund, etc). That tourney seemed riped for Junk to come in and wreck house.

[damionblackgear]

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

The list I'm planning to build.

...

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

You may want to click the Rock list in my signature (or go back a couple pages) for additional ideas. I've been working with a list that is SFM and GSZ that seems to incorporate your request (Sigarda and Liliana). It does however run Bob, Thoughtseize, and a Goyf. Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

----

In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

[Kich867]

You may want to click the Rock list in my signature (or go back a couple pages) for additional ideas. I've been working with a list that is SFM and GSZ that seems to incorporate your request (Sigarda and Liliana). It does however run Bob, Thoughtseize, and a Goyf. Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

----

In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

If you don't already run Sylvan Library, and are dissatisfied with spending mana on Top, just play like 3 libraries. They're so much better than anything else. Even if your 2 drop is cluttered, that card will single handedly win you so many games it's silly. If you play it and it isn't countered or destroyed by your next turn, you know you're in a super good position because: A: They probably don't have it, B: Your clear to drop dudes, C: You have a fucking Library out and you're going to win the game.

[Mr. Safety]

Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

That would be me :wink: I used a full set of Sculler because I didn't have Bobs at the time, and I was also using 3x Thoughtseize/2x Iok/2x Liliana/3x Hymn all in the maindeck. I didn't realize it, but the meta-game I was diving into was swarming with combo. I took first in my first tournament there because of the insane hand disruption. I was also playing a full 3x Sylvan Library because I didn't have Bobs. I needed the bodies for pressure because believe it or not Bob does make a difference in combat, especially if he is feeding you discard/removal to keep the game state in your favor.

Fast forward a month and I've got my set of Bobs sleaved up, but I end up dropping the Hymns for Scullers. I found that Hymn is only good in narrow cases, mostly against decks like RUG Delver and Burn. Sculler had always performed amazing for me, so I had no reason to cut in that department. Curve Thoughtseize>>>Sculler>>>Liliana and live the dream, baby.

In regards to Dark Tutelage, it's just plain wrong. If you have access to :b::b: then you are much better suited to using Phyrexian Arena instead. I think both options are wrong if you have access to more Sylvan Library's. I tried Arenas for a little while, but it got incredibly awkward. A time walk on turn 3 with underperforming value was really lousy. Sylvan Library at least gives you the equivalent of a Top activation and the option to draw into more gas. I'd rather draw one card that is the best of my top 3 than get an extra card that might not even matter. With Bob, you're getting the body and a significant threat if left unanswered. Whenever I've resolved a Sylvan Library it hs been the stone cold nuts. Play 3-4 of those before you try something like Dark Tutelage or even Phyrexian Arena. It curves out better and only hurts you mildly more than Dark Confidant. The important part is that it feeds you insane card quality as long as you play at least 7-8 fetchlands and a few other shuffle effects (GSZ, Knight.) If you rock some sort of lifegain in the maindeck, like if you're doing SFM + Batterskull/Jitte, then Library gets even better. Padding your life to allow for extra cards is pretty sweet.

My current quandry is my lack of Goyfs...I have 2 now, but I think getting up to 3 would be ideal.

Current list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lilana of the Veil
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
2x Sylvan Library
1x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village

(maindeck = 61 cards. I'm playing 22 lands with 61 in the main...it feels a little low, even with Deathrites and GSZ. I might have to drop to 1x GSZ to make room for land #23. Testing will tell.)

Sideboard:

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
1x (flex spot, could be Umezawa's Jitte, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Tormod's Crypt, or Oblivion Ring)

[Mr. Safety]

If you don't already run Sylvan Library, and are dissatisfied with spending mana on Top, just play like 3 libraries. They're so much better than anything else. Even if your 2 drop is cluttered, that card will single handedly win you so many games it's silly. If you play it and it isn't countered or destroyed by your next turn, you know you're in a super good position because: A: They probably don't have it, B: Your clear to drop dudes, C: You have a fucking Library out and you're going to win the game.

Testi-FY, brother. 100% agree. It should be renamed 'Stone Cold Nuts I Win Enchantment'

Going into my signature. Word.

[sdematt]

----

In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

I'm 100% sure that's a joke Pyroblast for the showboats. He places first WHILE playing 61 cards AND it being almost uncastable.

-Matt

[RaZe]

Thanks for the replys.

@damionblackgear - I looked up your vids and learned a lot from them. Amusing commentaries nontheless.

As for the updated list...

4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze / Sigarda

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library

2 Lilianna of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[dballard]

Raze, it looks okay although I'm not a fan of combining the GSZ build and the Stonefirge build. Also, your black mana curve is a little light needing 2for Liliana, maybe a savannah should be a scrubland?

No Dark Confidants hurts.

[Arsenal]

Raze, maybe Maverick would be better suited for you until you get Bobs and Goyfs. The Maverick players have even been testing running Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, and replacing Hierarch with DRS; it may be what you're looking for.

[damionblackgear]

Thanks for the replys.

@damionblackgear - I looked up your vids and learned a lot from them. Amusing commentaries nontheless.

As for the updated list...

...

Happy that I could be of assistance. Don't worry about combining the two, it works. It does lead to a more complex decision tree. It'll be discouraging, but it's worth it. You'll find that you'll notice a lot of other branches in other decks as well.

I do think that your manabase could use some minor adjustments. More so, I'd suggest that you swap a Bayou for a Scrubland. It'll help you play around Submerge a well as provide a way to not be wasted off a color (1 of each). More fetches would also help as you are running DRS and more fetches increases the potential for it's use on turn 2.

I'm also running 14-ish creatures so I know that'll work with the Equipment. I'd try to fit in the Bob's as they come. They do help quite a bit in the regards of having an attacker as well as gaining additional creatures.

Stick it out, regardless of what nae-sayer(s) may say. The mixing works very well when you're use to it as well as provides additional lines of attack that many decks have difficulty adapting to. Remember to always make adjustments that make it harder to lose without sacrificing ease of win. Keep an open mind about what's a staple (everything changes). Overall, I think you'll like your choices and will enjoy the deck (keeping SFM and/or GSZ or not). I recommend you change decks at the point you think it's optimal. We're never optimal.

[dballard]

Yeah I don't mean to imply that you can't do GSZ and Stoneforge. I just think that each option plays better apart. I think if your going Stoneforge, than you also go Lingering Souls and probably Cabal Therapy as well. It's a more grindy build for sure. That's just my opinion.

Damion, I'm a big fan of your videos as well, helps me see how this deck interacts with a variety of other decks (not just my meta).

[damionblackgear]

dballard - no worries. I'm the devil's advocate.

In other news, there's a "Junk" deck on the SCG stream (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive). No list as of yet.

-Edit- List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54149)

[sdematt]

dballard - no worries. I'm the devil's advocate.

In other news, there's a "Junk" deck on the SCG stream (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive). No list as of yet.

-Edit- List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54149)

Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

great against ANT too.

[AggroSteve]

i have been away from magic for quite a while now, would someone care to tell me about the extort mechanism, as i am not entirely sure how it works

thx

[damionblackgear]

702.99. Extort
702.99a Extort is a triggered ability. "Extort" means "Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay . If you do, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain life equal to the total life lost this way."
702.99b If a permanent has multiple instances of extort, each triggers separately.

It's a smaller ability that allows you to Nickle and Dime your opponent per spell, as long as you have an open mana to pay it's cost. It's probably not all that relevant but, it could buy you a closer game every now and then.

Wizard's Explanation (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/228#2).

[Zombie]

Apart from being good against ANT, Obedience also completely murders Elves' ability to combo out.

[Esper3k]

Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

I'm not a fan of it against Sneaky Show - it pretty much stalls them for a turn. Against Show & Tell -> Emrakul/Griselbrand, O-Ring is better since it actually removes Griselbrand/Emrakul. The only time Blind Obedience is better is if we can swing for lethal that very turn while Emrakul/GB are tapped.

Against Sneak Attack, Blind Obedience only buys us a turn again since Sneak Attack has the Waylay trick available to it (at the end of our turn, they activate Sneak Attack, put Emrakul/GB into play tapped, untap on their turn and attack us). O-Ring is worse here if they have the extra mana to activate SA with O-Ring trigger on the stack, but if they're not expecting it (or able to play around it), O-Ring wins again over Blind Obedience.

[Arsenal]

That Junk list looks to combine the best elements of the SFM Junk lists and the KotR Junk lists by keeping the main components (SFM + KotR), but cutting the complementary pieces (Lingering Souls + GSZ) in order to make room. Seems risky cutting all that awesome utility (Souls and/or GSZ), but I suppose results speak for themselves. Nice Blind Obedience tech in the SB; may have to pickup 1 for my ETutor board.

[sdematt]

I mean, a good S and T player with the right cards is going to beat us anyway. Oblivion Ring helps, but if they drop Sneak Attack off of Show and Tell, we're also boned.

Helping against Elves is relevant, though. I think we have to look at the cards and see how many matchups they're good in versus how few they're GREAT in. I'm sure O-ring is better against Sneak, but it's garbage against Elves, Combo, etc.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

I mean, a good S and T player with the right cards is going to beat us anyway. Oblivion Ring helps, but if they drop Sneak Attack off of Show and Tell, we're also boned.

Helping against Elves is relevant, though. I think we have to look at the cards and see how many matchups they're good in versus how few they're GREAT in. I'm sure O-ring is better against Sneak, but it's garbage against Elves, Combo, etc.

-Matt

Yeah, what I'm saying is that I don't think Blind Obedience is good against Sneaky Show at all. It barely does anything against either Show & Tell or Sneak Attack.

For me, I've never been that terribly worried about Elves simply because of the sheer amount of removal we can bring combined with sweepers from the board. Also, given that Sneaky Show / Omni Tell are much more prevalent in the format than Elves, I'd rather increase the matchup there as well.

[damionblackgear]

Two quick thoughts.

What if Blind Obedience was meant more for a control match-up such as Miracles where it acts as additional reach as opposed to a control styled card in the Elves match? You can usually get them to a lower life total and would just need a couple quick spells to finish the job. We also have ample removal vs Elves. Does anyone know if he posts on the source or could provide some feedback into the discussion?

Anyone given any recent thought to tossing swords. I was digging through the archives of the old thread looking for some posts on why I had cut it before (replaced with edict). The reasoning there was that the format was almost no Aggro. That's a similar situation. We already can adapt better than some of the other decks but cutting swords is something that could change the entire dynamic of our lists. We would have Decay to cover the swords slot and most likely Pulse/Vindicate would remain to cover the top. It leaves us with as much removal as we had before but we become a little more susceptible to Reanimator (not a big deal) and Aggro decks (which are kind of MIA in a generalized meta).

[Zombie]

As an Elves player I'd be irritated with Blind Obedience. It kills Glimpse combos, but also several cute tricks that are key parts of the deck's board control ability (like cracking a fetch for Dryad Arbor, block, bounce the Arbor back to hand). Moreover, I'm not necessarily very concerned with Rock decks - I have tons of card draw, some pseudo-immortal creatures and such. All in all good stuff, because it doesn't give you time. I play big dudes that give me a new hand and other funsies, board in Decay and so on. Obedience just gives you more time to deal with the absurd portions of the deck that reinforce it's ability to play the fair game into something that crushes other fair decks. Without the absurdity, well...

[Mr. Safety]

If Blind Obedience made lands come into play tapped, a la Root Maze tech, I'd be all for it. With our mana acceleration, as narrow as it is (Shaman, GSZ>>Arbor), is great way to just jump way ahead. Where it taps only artifacts and creatures, welp, that just doesn't seem that great to me. I've said this already: discard is incredible against Sneaky Show. They need to have 1) an enabler, 2) a fatty, and 3) disruption, usually Force. If you start the hand attack turn 1 and have a good density of discard effects (Seize, IoK, Hymns, Liliana, Sculler) you're going to be doing a fairly good job at dealing with most of their tech. Board in O-Rings and you should be in good shape.

For elves, I think Golgari Charm is probably the best all-around solution (or Zealous Persecution in the Lingering Souls builds.)

For me, I'm at a crossroads. I want to stick with Sculler and I have 3x Tarmogoyf now. That sort of squeezes out GSZ, which I have dropped to only 1 copy. I also have tech I just traded for with a pair of Mystics and a Batterskull. I want to play ALL of them, and Lingering Souls, too. There just isn't enough room.

Thoughts here? Help a brutha decide what to do with his threat density/package. A couple of non-negotiable points:

1) Not dropping Bobs
2) Not dropping Deathrites
2) Not going below 2x Sylvan Library

Beyond that, the deck is wide open for tweaks. I wish I could just look at all of the different lists side by side, that would be really, really helpful.

[dballard]

Couldn't you effectively drop 1 shamen for a GSZ? Then again I'm not a fan of the 4 shaman lists. You've dropped witness from your list?

[Mr. Safety]

Witness gave way for more Goyfs, which were the right move.

[damionblackgear]

For me, I'm at a crossroads. I want to stick with Sculler and I have 3x Tarmogoyf now. That sort of squeezes out GSZ, which I have dropped to only 1 copy. I also have tech I just traded for with a pair of Mystics and a Batterskull. I want to play ALL of them, and Lingering Souls, too. There just isn't enough room.

Thoughts here? Help a brutha decide what to do with his threat density/package. A couple of non-negotiable points:

1) Not dropping Bobs
2) Not dropping Deathrites
2) Not going below 2x Sylvan Library

Beyond that, the deck is wide open for tweaks. I wish I could just look at all of the different lists side by side, that would be really, really helpful.

I think you toss the souls in the board in this case (going by the list on the last page). Shave your NO count to 3 and use your flex spot for Souls. It's tight to fit it all in without issues. You're running 61 (fyi, potential starting point edits bring to 60) in that list so fitting the last shaman in shouldn't be an issue. This is what I came up with for changes:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Tidehollow Sculler
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Sensei's Divining Top

+1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+1 Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard

-1 Natural Order
-1 Flex Slot
+2 Lingering Souls


Again, I went back to 60 per habit so nix the shaman line to keep 4.

Basically you're swapping the Sculler;Goyf ratio so that shouldn't cause an issue. The SFM may be a little clunky and will definitely need some tuning. I'm recommending the SoFI>Jitte because you're short a top. It's actually what I'm trying right now and if I could ever get the upload from this weekend to go I could show you how testing went. For now, you'll just have to take my word that it really didn't matter (not having the top).

The room for everything was just from shaving numbers down. The cutting of GSZ may end up being the bigger deal because it allows you to remove the arbor at little to no loss but in itself, it may be a catastrophe. I figured you were already consistent enough to allow it's removal (almost all 4's in the initial list) at minimal cost to performance (theory). I don't know if it'll be for a benefit but that's why we test.

Unfortunately, there are no real ways besides editing the window sized and queuing up the lists next to each other for changes (unless someone knows another way... spreadsheets don't count).

[sdematt]

It's so hard to fit everything, so don't feel bad. I feel like Souls could easily be a sideboard card as well, depending on your meta.

I could see Blind Obedience, in a way, being good against say, Esperblade. Why? They gum up the board with tokens, which make your big dudes look not so good. Clearing them out is a serious pain in the ass. Blind makes pooping tokens slightly worse, since they cannot protect Jace THAT turn, and Batterskull's token will CitP tapped as well. This is interesting.

-Matt

[Claymore]

It also helps delay Jund's Bloodbraid plus cascade.

I've lately been running into a TON of RiP decks. Generally Miracles and Death and Taxes. The tactic generally has been to hold my Abrupt Decay for dear life, but I still lose tons of momentum when Goyfs and Knights become awful cards.

It makes the likes of Golgari Charm more important, but has anyone experimented with something like Hero of Bladehold to act as pure beatstick? I see Sigarda get mention, is she plainly more powerful as a 1x? That 5-6 cc seems extremely high, especially when you lose DRS to RiP. Is Linvala relevant?

I'd probably want to swap out for SFM package, but I don't have it.

I'm also curious about those times that I get dream crushed by Leyline of Sanctity with a hand full of Seizes and Hymns, and possibly subbing in Bottomless Pit or something...

[sdematt]

It also helps delay Jund's Bloodbraid plus cascade.

I've lately been running into a TON of RiP decks. Generally Miracles and Death and Taxes. The tactic generally has been to hold my Abrupt Decay for dear life, but I still lose tons of momentum when Goyfs and Knights become awful cards.

It makes the likes of Golgari Charm more important, but has anyone experimented with something like Hero of Bladehold to act as pure beatstick? I see Sigarda get mention, is she plainly more powerful as a 1x? That 5-6 cc seems extremely high, especially when you lose DRS to RiP. Is Linvala relevant?

I'd probably want to swap out for SFM package, but I don't have it.

I'm also curious about those times that I get dream crushed by Leyline of Sanctity with a hand full of Seizes and Hymns, and possibly subbing in Bottomless Pit or something...

RiP seems to be gaining popularity, I know. This is where Equipment and pure beatsticks do become more viable, I'd agree. I'm also running Charm in the board with the rise of the RiP decks so I don't have to hold Decay as often. You can also try Thrun. Uncounterable is also a big deal, since most of those decks run Swords/Path/Counterspells. Linvala, being a 3/4 flier, could also be good.

charm is also a great out to Humility as well, in case you're running Qasali :/

-Matt

[Chatto]

@ Damionblackgear: I have shaved Swords to Plowshares to three. Don't think I want to lower. The rest of my removal consist out of four Decay and one Pulse. Also have one Pulse in the board. If I would take out StP entirely, I would consider Pulse and/or Vindicate. I already play Liliana main as a two of, so Edict would be a SB-option (that is if S&T would be really big in my meta -which is not the case-)

[Kpicco]

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volrath's%20Stronghold)

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

[Sughayyer]

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volrath's%20Stronghold)

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

damionblackgear and mr safety already use it.
I have mixed feeling toward it, because it can only achieve it's "peak" in a kotr build where it can be tutored, but then I'm greedy and I'd want 4 wastelands AND maze.
Come to think of it, I think that I can blame my greed for not coming up with a version of the deck for too long... I want it ALL....

[damionblackgear]

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volrath's%20Stronghold)

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

Stronghold was part of the original Rock builds and was a staple then. The current version uses it from time to time but it's usually cut again after the meta it's needed for is gone. It may be that time again. Here's the link to the previous thread --> Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11737-) <-- It may be old but we've gone almost full circle from about 3 years ago so the opinions from that time may be useful as well. That's also the time frame that Stronghold stopped being a staple in the decks.

Also, I think I'm going to try cutting swords again and seeing how it goes. Abrupt Decay will fill it's slot and I'll re-add the missing Pulse. The mention of edict was because that's what was used at the time and it's also a 2cc spell.

[Esper3k]

Volrath's Stronghold is powerful, but it's still a colorless mana producing land in a deck that regularly needs GB/GW/BB mana.

As others have pointed out, it's best in the KoTR builds and is a lot less necessary if you're running the Lingering Souls builds.

[Kich867]

damionblackgear and mr safety already use it.
I have mixed feeling toward it, because it can only achieve it's "peak" in a kotr build where it can be tutored, but then I'm greedy and I'd want 4 wastelands AND maze.
Come to think of it, I think that I can blame my greed for not coming up with a version of the deck for too long... I want it ALL....

What other "build" is there but a KOTR build? The deck actually really needs Knight, and you certainly wouldn't need to run 4 wastelands if you ran KOTR. Having a land package is one of the only outs this deck has to S&T and it helps deal with GY strategies as well. Tutoring Maze is also a huge deal for buying some time.

[Arsenal]

What other "build" is there but a KOTR build? The deck actually really needs Knight, and you certainly wouldn't need to run 4 wastelands if you ran KOTR. Having a land package is one of the only outs this deck has to S&T and it helps deal with GY strategies as well. Tutoring Maze is also a huge deal for buying some time.

I've been having success with the SFM + Lingering Souls build whereas others are still on the KotR + GSZ plan. I've run both builds before, and I can assure you that in a grindy, attrition based meta, the KotR + GSZ build dies a horrible, horrible death. There's literally nothing worse against a Jund opponent than to play your KotR, get it Abrupt Decayed eot, then they drop BBE and you lose.

[Sughayyer]

KOtR was and is one of my favorite creatures. However, in this meta full of removal spells he does *nothing* if he doesn't untap, and he can't protect itself very well (the sejiri steppe stuff is terrible, I tried, liked it in the first 2 days then hated it). Lingering souls has a direct impact on the board, renders opposing lilianas useless (nullifying the first 2 abilities) and has the option of being recast.
That said, a lot of time we need BIG beaters. That's when tarmogoyf comes in.

Now I'm thinking.... if we run tarmogoyf (big guy, good vs combo and closes the life gap between us and the opponents) and lingering souls, couldn't we cut smf and leave, say, a jitte and a sword (or 2 jittes) in the deck? I don't think we'd miss batterskull. We could go 3 shaman, 4 bob, 3 goyf, 3 knight, 3 souls, 3 equipments and 2 gsz.
I'm also tempted to run hymn to tourach maindeck again. Reasoning: a few months back, I'd rather choose a card that would make a difference against my deck to take away. Now all decks I see have A LOT of things that are troublesome... so a hymn will never take away "meh" stuff... I'll also check the old thread to get some ideas.

[Mr. Safety]

I appreciate the help fellas, and I think I have a starting point for the deck for now.

-1 Sculler (two seems more right than 3 in the maindeck, unclogs the 2cc slots)
-1 Sylvan Library (split with SDT to further unclog the 2cc slots)
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek (2 in the maindeck now)
-1 Knight of the Reliquary (with GSZ, I can still find them often enough and they aren't performing as well with a format stuffed full of Deathrite Shamans. Still good, especially when you untap against greedy mana bases and you go for the Waste-lock)

That frees up 4 slots for Stoneforge Mystic x2, Batterskull, and Jitte

Side note @damianblackgear: I don't want to trim to 3 Deathrites, it is useful as NO fodder. I can pull off a turn 3 NO more reliably. Ditto on GSZ, it fetches Dryad Arbor/Deathrite which allows my fetchlands to settle the mana with Bayou/Scrubland/Savanna.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Vindicate
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:

3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Choke
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Lingering Souls


This is where I'm at right now. I dropped the V-Stronghold because 5 colorless lands in this deck is brutal. When you mulligan 3 land hands because *none* of them produce colored mana, you have a problem. I am playing a lower curve now, but I still feel a little awkward with only 22 lands. I don't mind the 61 card list, as long as that 61st card is land #23. I'm going to test this out for now...but I feel bad without that 23rd land. I won't go to 62 cards, that's just foolishness. I'd drop to 2x Knight before I did that.

[Claymore]

I think you could safely drop 1 Sword and either stay there or add in an additional land.

[Kich867]

Your manabase looks so dangerous. I was shocked you could fit everything you did into the list, but running 22 lands with that many colorless / comes into play tapped /can't tap lands?

I would cut a waste for a bayou..and try to fit another land in. Otherwise I really like that list. I'd probably move batterskull to the board and bring SOFAF in instead, and cut a Stoneforge Mystic. You only ever really want to see one, and they're just fetching an equipment for your better beaters. So imo, cut one SFM, and one waste, for like, a bayou and a savannah or something.

[Esper3k]

KOtR was and is one of my favorite creatures. However, in this meta full of removal spells he does *nothing* if he doesn't untap, and he can't protect itself very well (the sejiri steppe stuff is terrible, I tried, liked it in the first 2 days then hated it). Lingering souls has a direct impact on the board, renders opposing lilianas useless (nullifying the first 2 abilities) and has the option of being recast.
That said, a lot of time we need BIG beaters. That's when tarmogoyf comes in.

Now I'm thinking.... if we run tarmogoyf (big guy, good vs combo and closes the life gap between us and the opponents) and lingering souls, couldn't we cut smf and leave, say, a jitte and a sword (or 2 jittes) in the deck? I don't think we'd miss batterskull. We could go 3 shaman, 4 bob, 3 goyf, 3 knight, 3 souls, 3 equipments and 2 gsz.
I'm also tempted to run hymn to tourach maindeck again. Reasoning: a few months back, I'd rather choose a card that would make a difference against my deck to take away. Now all decks I see have A LOT of things that are troublesome... so a hymn will never take away "meh" stuff... I'll also check the old thread to get some ideas.

Heh here's the maindeck of a build I've been idly fiddling around with. I've been playing other decks right now in my local Legacy tournament, so I haven't actually put this one to the test yet, but I may sooner or later.

I call it "All the Good Things" Junk.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
3 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [JGC] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

Maybe +1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Knight can make the mana curve slightly better, but I really wanted to have KoTR against the Show & Tell decks. With only 21 mana producing lands, it may also be correct to cut the Maze, but I figured since I'm going greedy anyways, I might as well just leave it as is for now. Plus, I still have 2 GSZ to help accelerate some.

Currently, I actually prefer Tops over Sylvan because although Sylvan is amazing, I'd rather all together avoid the whole Abrupt Decay problem on my library manipulation.

[Arsenal]

I'd probably move batterskull to the board and bring SOFAF in instead, and cut a Stoneforge Mystic. You only ever really want to see one, and they're just fetching an equipment for your better beaters.

As someone who plays 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte maindeck, I can assure you that I almost never only want to see 1x SFM for the entire game. I generally want to see 3, often times all 4, during the course of a game. Obviously, the other cards in my hand will dictate what I want, but in most cases, when I open with 2x SFM and 1cc discard and/or spot removal, I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[AggroSteve]

i am using top as well again,... abrupt decay is the 1st reason for this, the second beeng that i use MD deeds again (2-off),.... so far i am surprised how good they are right now

i am also trying strangleroot again as i have MD deeds right now, and he is sometimes really good, other times he is just a tiny guy that bites our manabase
i may as well try MD jitte instead of deed, maybe this would work better with a high enough creature count, maybe even running quasali pridemage in the main again could have some merit, as it preemptively answers RIP, so your goyfs and knight wont be tiny for long

[Kich867]

As someone who plays 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte maindeck, I can assure you that I almost never only want to see 1x SFM for the entire game. I generally want to see 3, often times all 4, during the course of a game. Obviously, the other cards in my hand will dictate what I want, but in most cases, when I open with 2x SFM and 1cc discard and/or spot removal, I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

[AggroSteve]

Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

some will get countered, some will get discarded, or maybe even killed with your batterskull still in your hand,....some other times you need a dude but do not want to shuffle your library, because you will need whats on top more then the equipment.

well long story short, there are way to many scenarios that make it profitable playing more stoneforge mystics and to want to see them all in a game, specially if the game goes long

[Arsenal]

Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

First usually gets countered as my opponent will not have an opportunity to counter the Batterskull or Jitte should my SFM resolve. Also, postboard, I'm usually maindecking 3 equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, SoFaF), so I need to see AT LEAST 3 SFM, and usually I want 4 as the first SFM will most certainly get countered/killed/discarded; if that occurs, then I've seen 1 SFM (disposed of) and I still want to see the remaining 3 SFM to find my 3 pieces of equipment. I want my equipment to be uncounterable versus blue decks (Esperblade for example), so I'm usually less inclined to cast the equipment spell, I'd much rather cast SFM (while already holding equipment) to run him out of counters, then cast Batterskull freely.

It doesn't sound like you've played with SFM Junk versus grindy decks before. You most definitely never only want to see 1 SFM the entire game versus Esperblade, Jund, Maverick, etc.

[Kich867]

That's not really what I asked. I asked in what instance is seeing literally all 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic useful, not why you want to run 4 in your deck.

I playtest almost exclusively against an esper player. If they're killing your stoneforges or countering them, they're doing it -very- wrong. Stoneforge and then actively trying to use that stoneforge is equally as durdly as what they're trying to do, it applies no pressure. When esper doesn't feel pressured, they'll get a jace down and start going ham on you.

Stoneforge should be no more than a 2-of in this deck, and if your opponents are stupid enough to counter or kill her, you're pretty well set up to win the game anyways, probably through sheer skill gap. Going turn 2 stoneforge into turn 3 batterskull is pretty much the same play they're doing, except they're curving out into a jace and they'll -snap- trade batterskulls with you.

In The Rock, Stoneforge isn't much better than a Squire, and should be looked as more of an equipment slot than not. If you're all-in on the Batterskull plan, I can see running 4 because you don't want Bob to rock your face, but I've never found batterskull to be absolutely essential compared to getting a Jitte or SOFAF down. If your meta is more aggro though, that makes more sense. My meta is heavily combo filled, and Jitte / SOFAF provide faster clocks / more utility.

*note: speaking strictly in terms of the Esper matchup.

[Arsenal]

That's not really what I asked. I asked in what instance is seeing literally all 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic useful, not why you want to run 4 in your deck.

I playtest almost exclusively against an esper player. If they're killing your stoneforges or countering them, they're doing it -very- wrong. Stoneforge and then actively trying to use that stoneforge is equally as durdly as what they're trying to do, it applies no pressure. When esper doesn't feel pressured, they'll get a jace down and start going ham on you.

Stoneforge should be no more than a 2-of in this deck, and if your opponents are stupid enough to counter or kill her, you're pretty well set up to win the game anyways, probably through sheer skill gap. Going turn 2 stoneforge into turn 3 batterskull is pretty much the same play they're doing, except they're curving out into a jace and they'll -snap- trade batterskulls with you.

In The Rock, Stoneforge isn't much better than a Squire, and should be looked as more of an equipment slot than not. If you're all-in on the Batterskull plan, I can see running 4 because you don't want Bob to rock your face, but I've never found batterskull to be absolutely essential compared to getting a Jitte or SOFAF down. If your meta is more aggro though, that makes more sense. My meta is heavily combo filled, and Jitte / SOFAF provide faster clocks / more utility.

*note: speaking strictly in terms of the Esper matchup.

I guess I don't understand. If you understand why I run 4 in the deck, then how can you not understand why I want to see all 4? This is a very common scenario:

1st SFM gets discarded out of my hand.

2nd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, but SFM promptly dies before I get to untap; I'm slightly hesitant to cast the Equipment as I don't want it to get countered.

3rd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

4th SFM resolves, I grab Equipment (if postboard), and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

This is in conjuction with me casting Lingering Souls, Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, and other spells that I need to. I play in a super grindy, attrition based meta (Maverick, Jund, RiP Miracles, Esperblade, etc) and I've never, ever, ever wanted to only see 1 SFM throughout the entire game. I don't view SFM as a Squire, but rather as a pseudo-Baneslayer Angel. I've run both builds of The Rock, and in my meta, KotR + GSZ sucks, but SFM + Equipment + Souls is doing very, very well.

EDIT: Care to post your list? I've posted mine twice in the last two pages if you are curious.

[Kich867]

I guess I don't understand. If you understand why I run 4 in the deck, then how can you not understand why I want to see all 4? This is a very common scenario:

1st SFM gets discarded out of my hand.

2nd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, but SFM promptly dies before I get to untap; I'm slightly hesitant to cast the Equipment as I don't want it to get countered.

3rd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

4th SFM resolves, I grab Equipment (if postboard), and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

This is in conjuction with me casting Lingering Souls, Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, and other spells that I need to. I play in a super grindy, attrition based meta (Maverick, Jund, RiP Miracles, Esperblade, etc) and I've never, ever, ever wanted to only see 1 SFM throughout the entire game. I don't view SFM as a Squire, but rather as a pseudo-Baneslayer Angel. I've run both builds of The Rock, and in my meta, KotR + GSZ sucks, but SFM + Equipment + Souls is doing very, very well.

No, I understand why you want to run 4 because you want to see one early. It's unlikely you'd ever actually see all 4, and the rest past the first one are largely irrelevant because it's not like you aren't just naturally finding those equipment either between Bob and Library or Top, in your case Library.

You need to apply pressure to Esper or they just don't care, because at the end of the day they're a much better Stoneforge / Lingering Souls deck than you are. If they're actively attacking your stoneforges, they're very likely going to lose to your actual threats. Esper is an incredibly hard matchup, it almost always comes down to resolving a Sylvan Library, if you can do that you have a good shot of winning if they don't vindicate it.

I've personally found just the opposite, that particularly against a deck like Esper, the stoneforge package, even at 4 with lingering souls and batterskull, isn't favored in the slightest if they just ignore your stoneforges. If your big game is stoneforge and they're really aggressively trying to stop that instead of just canceling it out with their own and focusing their removal on your real threats and landing a Jace, then you'll probably win that match.

It's not to say that every match will go like that, but the large majority of my matches with that setup came down to card advantage, not anything like a jitte or a batterskull. Stoneforge into Batterskull just about gives them a free jace. And if they clique it out of your hand in response to the activation you're pretty fucked.

This is why it's easier, and better imo, to use Stoneforge simply as another equipment slot that's slightly better than actually just drawing the equipment. And you certainly don't play it early. There's no reason to, you don't even have a threat with which to apply pressure if you play it early. Attack their hand, get a library on board, stick a threat, and apply pressure before playing stoneforge, otherwise the next 3-4 turns are very obvious and they have enough information to bury you.

And on the contrary, the GSZ build allows you to repeatedly plop a threat down, and that's whats scariest to an Esper player, running out of answers. It's way too easy for them to answer Stoneforge/Batterskull plan. You play a stoneforge, well, now they can play a stoneforge for free, and you can't kill it with an abrupt decay / they can easily spell pierce the sword, because if you do in fear of the batterskull, you gave them Jace + an activation for free with absolutely no pressure.

What they can't answer is dropping a bob, then after getting it plowed dropping a knight, then after the snap plow having to deal with the discard + GSZ for Goyf, and so on. The only way I consistently beat Esper is by simply having more threats than they have answers in rapid succession. Sometimes the grindy gameplan can work, they can slip up and you can capitalize off a mistake and punish them super hard, but when you play against people who -very- rarely make mistakes, you shouldn't be taking games off them by trying to be a better stoneforge/lingering souls deck than they are.

[Arsenal]

I think you're misunderstanding my line of play, I'm not solely playing SFM and nothing else the rest of the game. I'm dropping Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Library, Souls, playing discard, etc. If they have answers to all that, then they deserve to win. My deck constantly is applying pressure and basically says "I'm running this out, you better have an answer, or you lose". I run more discard, more spot removal, more threats, and the only true trump Esperblade has is Brainstorm/Ponder and Jace.

And I'm not quite sure why I can't Abrupt Decay their SFM... Misdirection? I'm unclear why this isn't a possible line of play.

[Kich867]

I believe my current list is like this, been playing a different deck lately:

// Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil

2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach

1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Karakas

// Sideboard:
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Duress
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Batterskull
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Surgical Extraction

[Arsenal]

If your meta is as combo heavy as you claim, then I suppose my question is why do you play SFM + Equipment at all? Why not use those 4 slots to play Goyf? Also, why no Thoughtseize? How have the Thalias been treating you? You run 18 non-creature spells; that's a TON of spells that will be hampered by Thalia. What do you typically board out for her, your Plows?

[Kich867]

I think you're misunderstanding my line of play, I'm not solely playing SFM and nothing else the rest of the game. I'm dropping Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Library, Souls, playing discard, etc. If they have answers to all that, then they deserve to win. My deck constantly is applying pressure and basically says "I'm running this out, you better have an answer, or you lose". I run more discard, more spot removal, more threats, and the only true trump Esperblade has is Brainstorm/Ponder and Jace.

And I'm not quite sure why I can't Abrupt Decay their SFM... Misdirection? I'm unclear why this isn't a possible line of play.

So you play a stoneforge, then they play a stoneforge, now you have 2 options: leave mana open to drop your equipment into play, abrupt decay their SFM. This leaves you with 1 mana open. If you have the nut and haven't already used it you could discard them here but, you've probably used that on the first turn to nab some removal spell otherwise this line just ends anyways since on your end step they plowed her. If you AD the SFM to stop their batterskull, they pretty much untap into Jace to your Stoneforge and can either just bounce stoneforge because now you -very- can't play your Batterskull and have no creatures on board or they start fate sealing you / brainstorming you out of the game. You have to again untap, drop your land, maybe play a 2 drop and pass. They've untapped with Jace and that's close to the worst possible feeling ever.

If you drop Stoneforge on turn 2, it should be because you had no other play. This line has happened to me enough times for me to learn that running her out on turn 2 is almost always the last option. If they thoughtseize you and they snap pick stoneforge over: Sylvan Library, Knight, Goyf, GSZ, a discard spell, Liliana, Bob, DRS, then that was a poor decision, as all of those cards are better than she is in the matchup.

Otherwise, if you were to drop a Sylvan Library for instance, they need to dig for a vindicate ASAP. You'll bury them in cards and they won't be able to keep up, your life total doesn't matter in the -slightest- in this matchup, you can bop yourself for 8 back to back and just keep jamming cards until they die. If you dropped a Bob, they need to kill him, if you drop a Goyf, they NEED to kill him, but they don't actually have to interact with your stoneforge because they know you aren't going to do anything next turn. If you drop another threat instead of playing the equipment you fetched, you've mostly wasted your second turn, and she becomes far less useful when there isn't something else in your deck beside her to put that equipment onto. Lingering souls is probably your best bet as a follow up play, but it's not that exciting compared to doing that in the other order: Lingering Souls then Stoneforge.

Compare that line to dropping a Goyf or Bob turn 2 followed by a lingering souls. They have to answer Goyf or Bob immediately. But now they have to answer the lingering souls tokens and can't really play jace with them on board. Then turn 4 dropping stoneforge and having 2 mana open to do whatever you need to with some lingering souls tokens out. Wasting two turns playing a Stoneforge is just too durdly to beat a prepared esper player in my experience.

Like I said, not every game plays out like that, but if I have the option to avoid that line of play I will almost always do so, simply because the possibility exists that I've wasted turn 2, and turn 3 on banking on them not killing her or having an answer.

[Kich867]

If your meta is as combo heavy as you claim, then I suppose my question is why do you play SFM + Equipment at all? Why not use those 4 slots to play Goyf? Also, why no Thoughtseize? How have the Thalias been treating you? You run 18 non-creature spells; that's a TON of spells that will be hampered by Thalia. What do you typically board out for her, your Plows?

Because Thalia into SFM + SOFAF is just game ending. I don't currently own thoughtseizes =(. Or Goyfs =(((. Hence playing another deck.

Thalias are amazing, most combo matchups I board out 7-8 removal spells, which gives me a lot to work with.

[Arsenal]

So you play a stoneforge, then they play a stoneforge, now you have 2 options: leave mana open to drop your equipment into play, abrupt decay their SFM. This leaves you with 1 mana open. If you have the nut and haven't already used it you could discard them here but, you've probably used that on the first turn to nab some removal spell otherwise this line just ends anyways since on your end step they plowed her. If you AD the SFM to stop their batterskull, they pretty much untap into Jace to your Stoneforge and can either just bounce stoneforge because now you -very- can't play your Batterskull and have no creatures on board or they start fate sealing you / brainstorming you out of the game. You have to again untap, drop your land, maybe play a 2 drop and pass. They've untapped with Jace and that's close to the worst possible feeling ever.

If you drop Stoneforge on turn 2, it should be because you had no other play. This line has happened to me enough times for me to learn that running her out on turn 2 is almost always the last option. If they thoughtseize you and they snap pick stoneforge over: Sylvan Library, Knight, Goyf, GSZ, a discard spell, Liliana, Bob, DRS, then that was a poor decision, as all of those cards are better than she is in the matchup.

Otherwise, if you were to drop a Sylvan Library for instance, they need to dig for a vindicate ASAP. You'll bury them in cards and they won't be able to keep up, your life total doesn't matter in the -slightest- in this matchup, you can bop yourself for 8 back to back and just keep jamming cards until they die. If you dropped a Bob, they need to kill him, if you drop a Goyf, they NEED to kill him, but they don't actually have to interact with your stoneforge because they know you aren't going to do anything next turn. If you drop another threat instead of playing the equipment you fetched, you've mostly wasted your second turn, and she becomes far less useful when there isn't something else in your deck beside her to put that equipment onto. Lingering souls is probably your best bet as a follow up play, but it's not that exciting compared to doing that in the other order: Lingering Souls then Stoneforge.

Compare that line to dropping a Goyf or Bob turn 2 followed by a lingering souls. They have to answer Goyf or Bob immediately. But now they have to answer the lingering souls tokens and can't really play jace with them on board. Then turn 4 dropping stoneforge and having 2 mana open to do whatever you need to with some lingering souls tokens out. Wasting two turns playing a Stoneforge is just too durdly to beat a prepared esper player in my experience.

Like I said, not every game plays out like that, but if I have the option to avoid that line of play I will almost always do so, simply because the possibility exists that I've wasted turn 2, and turn 3 on banking on them not killing her or having an answer.

What else do I have in hand besides SFM and the 1cc discard spell I used on turn 1? What did my opponent have in hand when I saw it with my 1cc discard spell?

[Kich867]

What else do I have in hand besides SFM and the 1cc discard spell I used on turn 1? What did my opponent have in hand when I saw it with my 1cc discard spell?

It doesn't really matter, the underlying point is that any 2 drop is better than SFM on turn 2. So overloading on them is undesirable, as you could instead run better 2 drops and use SFM's more appropriately as slightly better equipment slots.

If your discard them and they're clearly dead to whatever, and have no outs, then you win anyways.

[Arsenal]

If by "better 2 drops", you mean Goyf and Bob, I'm already running a playset of each; I replaced KotR with SFM, not Bob/Goyf with SFM. Also, I was incredibly soft to Perish and RiP when I ran the Bob/DRS/Goyf/KotR creature suite, now I don't even care about those two cards (which see a fair amount play in my meta).

EDIT: Also, in your scenario, it most certainly does matter what else is in my hand and what else is in my opponent's hand. You can't just have a blanket statement like "SFM is NEVER the correct play" if I don't know what else is possible.

[Kich867]

If by "better 2 drops", you mean Goyf and Bob, I'm already running a playset of each; I replaced KotR with SFM, not Bob/Goyf with SFM. Also, I was incredibly soft to Perish and RiP when I ran the Bob/DRS/Goyf/KotR creature suite, now I don't even care about those two cards (which see a fair amount play in my meta).

EDIT: Also, in your scenario, it most certainly does matter what else is in my hand and what else is in my opponent's hand. You can't just have a blanket statement like "SFM is NEVER the correct play" if I don't know what else is possible.

In your list, I would snap-drop 2 SFM for 2 more libraries. Running 22 lands with 4 of them being wastelands also seems difficult. I'd try to find room for a 23rd land somewhere.

And I never said that, I just said in almost every circumstance playing another two drop is better. If they have no removal are you playing SFM over Goyf? over Bob? What would you see in hand that says to you "SFM over X" when you discard them turn 1?

[Arsenal]

If I see their hand with Thoughtseize turn 1 (I'm on the play) and they don't have any removal naturally (tribal decks tend to suffer from this), then I'm grabbing their most relevant spell, then playing SFM over Bob/Goyf. Why? Because just as an unchecked Bob buries control, an unchecked SFM -> Batterskull makes it virtually impossible for tribal to get there. Hell, even turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull (assuming I snatched their Bolt with my IoK/Thoughtseize on turn 1) versus RUG Delver blows them out of the water as they can't interact with Batterskull with ANY of their spells (save their Goyf being a 4/5 and not dying to my Abrupt Decay). There are situations and card combinations that make turn 2 SFM -> Equipment the right call versus certain matchups and situations.

[Kich867]

If I see their hand with Thoughtseize turn 1 (I'm on the play) and they don't have any removal naturally (tribal decks tend to suffer from this), then I'm grabbing their most relevant spell, then playing SFM over Bob/Goyf. Why? Because just as an unchecked Bob buries control, an unchecked SFM -> Batterskull makes it virtually impossible for tribal to get there. Hell, even turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull (assuming I snatched their Bolt with my IoK/Thoughtseize on turn 1) versus RUG Delver blows them out of the water as they can't interact with Batterskull with ANY of their spells (save their Goyf being a 4/5 and not dying to my Abrupt Decay). There are situations and card combinations that make turn 2 SFM -> Equipment the right call versus certain matchups and situations.

We were speaking about the Esper matchup. A knight just as easily wrecks Rug's day and comes down on the same turn without you wasting your turn 2 finding Batterskull. Almost any circumstance in which you are clear to drop a creature without the threat of removal, Bob is almost explicitly better in every circumstance.

Burying people in cards is generally the safest way to victory, and if they can't answer Bob, you're winning the game. Batterskull can be stonewalled by a Goyf but Goyf can't beat a Knight.

I would rather not make plays that give my opponents an out, and simply having more shit than they have will more often win you the game than getting a batterskull out early.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where it's the right call, it's just usually not compared to other, better plays you could be making that force the opponent to play your game. For instance, in my list, Tidehollow Sculler hits the field over SFM almost regardless of what they have in hand.

Overall, my biggest beef with SFM is that you give them ample time to figure out the next steps of the game, which is incredibly relevant against Esper probably moreso than other, more linear decks. Esper thrives on information, and when you let them narrate the next several turns, they're usually in a position to be ahead. You want them to be in position where they need to keep trading 1-1 with you until they can't keep up.

[sdematt]

Got blown out by Perish yesterday by Esper. That didn't feel great. /ouch

Basically, against Esper, we need a resilient threat against removal, and against RIP, we need something that's hard to kill except via Terminus (which we cannot avoid).

Basically, I was playing my Junk deck versus TWO good Esper pilots making decisions together to ensure near perfect play. We're definitely the aggro deck here, but we need something to break the symmetry. They bring in SoFF, Perish, and more creature hate, whereas we bring in Jace hate. Usually if Jace doesn't land, then we're still good, but it sucks when he does. Basically they suggested to bring back some Thrun action (but he still gets chumped by Lingering Souls tokens) OR to straight up run Elspeth. Even though you run Elspeth and Teeg against them, they have to try and get rid of Teeg to attempt to muck you and actually win out with Jace, since creatures are sometimes not enough against a grindy deck like ours. Enter Elspeth.

Elspeth is immune to Decay and a backbreaker in the midrange mirrors (ala Jund, which we can dominate like a champ). It's less fragile that Garruk (although I do love deathtouch Wolves), and produces tokens that can block a guy with a SoFF. Plus, jumping a Knight/Goyf is pretty insane. Ideally, I'd like a shroud and unblockable creature in our colours, but I so far haven't found a good one.

Pithing Needle in the straight Esperblade version was crap, whereas against the RIP version is was great. I'm just debating on whether Needle still lives in my sideboard or not. It's the best card against Griselbrand, Sneak, and random other stuff, but I'm not sure if it's good ENOUGH in a meta with more traditional Esper. Time will tell.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Would Sorin do well in Elspeth's place? Easier to get 2BW than 2WW (since B is the mana foundation/basis of the deck), being a black token instead of a white one is relevant (Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental), 1/1 lifelink is always welcomed over a vanilla 1/1, and Sorin's ultimate seems more relevant than Elspeth's. The +1/+0 emblem vs. the jump+pump ability is debateable.

[sdematt]

If you can keep Elspeth on the table though, I think indestructibility can be relevant. I just like how Elspeth ONLY ticks up, whereas Sorin has to tick down to get the +1/+0. I liked him when I was playing infinite tokens.deck, but here, I'm going to try Elspeth. I'll also try Sorin and let you know how it goes.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

We were speaking about the Esper matchup. A knight just as easily wrecks Rug's day and comes down on the same turn without you wasting your turn 2 finding Batterskull. Almost any circumstance in which you are clear to drop a creature without the threat of removal, Bob is almost explicitly better in every circumstance.

Burying people in cards is generally the safest way to victory, and if they can't answer Bob, you're winning the game. Batterskull can be stonewalled by a Goyf but Goyf can't beat a Knight.

I would rather not make plays that give my opponents an out, and simply having more shit than they have will more often win you the game than getting a batterskull out early.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where it's the right call, it's just usually not compared to other, better plays you could be making that force the opponent to play your game. For instance, in my list, Tidehollow Sculler hits the field over SFM almost regardless of what they have in hand.

Overall, my biggest beef with SFM is that you give them ample time to figure out the next steps of the game, which is incredibly relevant against Esper probably moreso than other, more linear decks. Esper thrives on information, and when you let them narrate the next several turns, they're usually in a position to be ahead. You want them to be in position where they need to keep trading 1-1 with you until they can't keep up.

Goyf can beat a KotR depending on respective yards.

Having more shit than my opponent is exactly what SFM gives you.

I don't want to trade 1-1 with my opponent, I want value 2-for-1s like Lingering Souls, Liliana of the Veil, and SFM. If I resolve SFM and they kill it, I'm up a card. If they use Force of Wil counter it, I'm up a card. If they do nothing, they die to Batterskull. There's very little drawback of playing SFM when able.

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

[Kich867]

Goyf can beat a KotR depending on respective yards.

Having more shit than my opponent is exactly what SFM gives you.

I don't want to trade 1-1 with my opponent, I want value 2-for-1s like Lingering Souls, Liliana of the Veil, and SFM. If I resolve SFM and they kill it, I'm up a card. If they use Force of Wil counter it, I'm up a card. If they do nothing, they die to Batterskull. There's very little drawback of playing SFM when able.

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

So lets go through this thought experiment.
Your hand is: Bayou, Marsh Flats, Wasteland, SFM, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Liliana.
Their hand is: Island, Plains, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Jace.

Your next 3 draws in order: Bob, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls
Their next 3 draws in order: Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage, Land

You're on the play.

Would you actually play SFM on turn two here? Does that seem remotely reasonable?

These sorts of things aren't terribly accurate, given Brainstorm lets the esper player effectively see 6 cards over 3 draw steps so the amount of shit they can find is unreal, but I do think it's interesting hearing other people's opinions about sequencing and play order for both parties.

[Arsenal]

Given those 10 cards for each of us, I'd play Bob turn 2. My opponent's pretty far away (mana-wise, not card selection wise) from being able to Snapcaster + Plow my Bob, so I'll have gotten decent value out of him if he does bite the dust.

[AggroSteve]

against esper i have been very happy with elspeth, eternally chumpblocking batterskull until you get what you need is awesome, needle is fine in this matchup as well but not awesome

perish obviously sucks for us and i do not like the GSZ for Teeg line of play because of that, .... they just blow my board and land jace afterwards

a im running the knight/GSZ version, and trying strangleroot geist with deed MD

deed has been awesome so far, strangleroot was sometimes good sometimes bad, but most of the time it lead to a irritating situation for my opponent if he used a non-white deck

strangleroot probably will be cut though as i rarely was able to use him to his full potential

could someone give me some advise which cards are best used in SB for the esper matchup

my current SB is the following

3 needle
3 extirpate
1 deed (2 MD)
2 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay (3 MD)
1 darkblast
1 elspeth
2 gaddock teeg
1 cabal therapy (2 MD)

[Arsenal]

Perish does suck. Hard. When running the "classic" creature suite of DRS/Bob/Goyf/KotR, what do you guys do when Reanimator/Esper/etc boards in Perish? Just die?

[Mirrislegend]

What's the consensus on playing Mox Diamond?

Ever since I started running it months ago, I loved it. As the deck evolved, I effectively ran out of space in the deck for all the differet lines of play. The recent SCG finish reminded me that not playing Moxen is an option. Upon re-brewing with that in mind, I managed to fit in all the goodies (except Lili, but I was never smitten with her).

Has anyone else / how many people have cut Diamond and how has that been for you?

[Arsenal]

I used run 3 back in the day, but have dropped them mostly thanks to DRS. DRS mana fixes and accels, although MDiamond allows for stronger turn 1 plays; After turn 1, DRS and MDiamond are even in terms of accel and fixing.

[Claymore]

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

Very hard to play with if you use Sylvan Library, because Sylvan Library draws 2 extra cards every turn. I'm still at a loss as to how they interact if you actually DO want to keep the extra card and you don't have cards in hand...

Otherwise, it is effective against a lot of decks.

[damionblackgear]

So lets go through this thought experiment.
Your hand is: Bayou, Marsh Flats, Wasteland, SFM, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Liliana.
Their hand is: Island, Plains, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Jace.

Your next 3 draws in order: Bob, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls
Their next 3 draws in order: Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage, Land

You're on the play.

Would you actually play SFM on turn two here? Does that seem remotely reasonable?

These sorts of things aren't terribly accurate, given Brainstorm lets the esper player effectively see 6 cards over 3 draw steps so the amount of shit they can find is unreal, but I do think it's interesting hearing other people's opinions about sequencing and play order for both parties.

Interesting rigged question. Not enough information to give a fully developed grasp on the situation but I'll give this a shot because it looks super fun and I like theory crafting.

The correct play would be to play SFM on the play but not on the draw, No Thoughtseize on turn 1 if you know what you're against. Reason:

Known
You 1: Fetchland, pass.
Them 1: Island. They should recognize that there is little to nothing they can't deal with, with that hand. The pierce changes the play from them playing the Plains - Without the pierce, they can't stop a Library anyway. EOT you're fetching Scrub as most esper decks run few-no wastelands and you have a Bayou in hand to complete mana requirements for the rest of your hand.

You 2: You play SFM as bait, which they have a choice of going for brainstorm--> Force or waiting and just using the Swords. They're not only looking forward to the later game but also not wanting to waste resources so the swords is the better option. That means that you get to go for Batterskull and have a false sense of security based on the resolution - If you recognize that you've played a solvable threat, you'll not move with that information until you're ready.
Them 2: They'll play the plains and swords your Mystic. That should provide you the information that they may still have counter magic.

You 3: You have to check for counter magic/extra removal so the TS becomes an option at this point. It's very likely to resolve as their hand has a lot of options and more information will help the brainstorm next turn (most likely, some players may burn the Brainstorm to hide the Jace + ? | Jace will be their draw in this situation as we know they'll have 2 lands). Assuming no BS (pun intended), you'll see:


Polluted Delta
Brainstorm
Stoneforge Mystic
Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Spell Pierce
Snapcaster Mage


Of which Delta is off limits.Brainstorm and Jace are both irrelevant as the Opp has the tools to deal with threats on your side without them. SFM, Snapcaster, and Pierce are all the actual options.

Of the options that matter, equipment isn't a threat on it's own and will require Squire a turn to use (aka, least priority since you have decay and Liliana). Pierce only deals with the Liliana at this point (can wait a bit longer on this one, aka, higher priority). Snapcaster on the other hand allows them to pierce and swords. You're planning at his point to play Bob since you're almost guaranteed to get that card back next turn. So You'll probably take Snapcaster since it allows for insane plays and them to take control at this point.

So, now that you've taken Snapcaster, you play Bob to get your card back and have the intention of playing Goyf next turn. Just to note, this may also show a BS getting played but we can't continue from the BS. Most lists are playing 3 Force main and 1 in the board now so the odds aren't good they they'll find one. The bad news is that the lists are playing 3 more Swords, 1-3 more Snapcaster (Sword in yard), and 3 Force. So, your bob will probably resolve but die next turn. If it dies to Snapcaster, you get to Lili into Sac for sure (and have a souls in hand for the next turn, Souls--> Goyf with another land which dodges Pierce and gets enough to kill jace).

If they don't BS at either point.
Them 3: Because they don't have a way to deal with your Bob, the brainstorm becomes is required. We can't go past this (not enough card draw order dictated). You're in a very good place as you're going to be Bobbing into Lingering souls and drawing what you hope is a land to keep curve. Since there are only 3 swords left there's a good chance they don't find something for this turn (only 3 mana and 1's been used for BS).

If they don't find anything, they'll most likely play the mystic which will allow you to play Liliana and force the sac. They'll have the 4th land for Jace but you've got Bob + Lili on the field and Goyf + Souls in hand. If they bounce bob, you get to discard (souls) with Lili and put 3 bodies onto the field totaling 4 damage (no pump to survive).

If they do, you're in a worse place but you are not out. Souls isn't your best option as they still will have the Pierce active in hand the next turn and it becomes a pseudo time walk when it pierces your souls and lets them play Jace.

If you don't know

You 1: Bayou, Thoughtseize in case you're playing a combo deck or something that you need to pull cards from fast. you'll see the opener:

Island
Plains
Polluted Delta
Brainstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Stoneforge Mystic
Jace, The Mind Sculptor


Of the hand, Swords is the only thing that's stopping you from Mystic into win so, you take it.

Them 1: Draw pierce, Island. Pass.

You 2: Wasteland, Bob. They don't have anything and will have to Brainstorm (and we're cut off again). If that 3rd card is swords or force, they're still in it. Otherwise, you're getting 1 card minimum from Bob. SO, Next turn, you get to swords for Batterskull. When Snapcaster comes down,they've had a choice, they'll do it on their turn in which case you either get to plop Liliana on the table and force a sac --> discard souls the next turn and plop Goyf and/or Batterskull/SoFI forcing them to find another form or removal again or leave Jace in a poor position and you keeping up on card advantage. If they choose to do it on your turn, you get to plop Batterskull (on your turn to avoid potential Cliques) and goyf (I'm assuming we've drawn mana producing land #4) onto the battlefield. That leaves them with Mystic, Batterskull/SoFI, Bob, and Goyf on your side able to cause issues. Bob becomes an awkward choice then. Also, this option leave playing Jace leading to Liliana on your side without fear.

anyone else have opinions on the situation presented

-Edit-

What's the consensus on playing Mox Diamond? Has anyone else / how many people have cut Diamond and how has that been for you?

Most people are against them. I still like them but I've been testing without them again (2 shaman + 1 bird currently). I think it's still fine but I'm starting to think I've been too stuck on them. Trying new things to evolve. We need action which they help produce but they don't create.


Perish does suck. Hard. When running the "classic" creature suite of DRS/Bob/Goyf/KotR, what do you guys do when Reanimator/Esper/etc boards in Perish? Just die?

First, I just want to mention that I changed your quote a little bit (I don't count Reanimator as a deck and haven't since entomb's unbanning. I call it lunch).

Against Esper we have time. The trick is dealing with Jace and Tokens. Everything else can be taken care of. If you can -1/-1 tehir field, only things with pumping equipment can cause an issue. Jace is all that's left. I've been feeling naked without the 3 Pulses (2 doesn't feel like enough) so I may go back up from there which will help deal with him.

[sdematt]

@ Arsenal

Chains of Mephistopheles was good, for sure, but it's not something I'd want to run more than 1-of. It combos poorly with Sylvan is the only issue. It's backbreaking against Brainstorm, but that's not what's getting you, it's Fateseal and Lingering souls protecting their Jace.

Sylvan is an optional trigger, so you don't HAVE to use it on your draw phase. But, if you were, this is how it would work:

1. Draw your card for the turn, Sylvan trigger on the stack.

2. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

3. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

4. Pay 4 life for each of the cards drawn beyond the first, or put them back.


@ Damion

I'm playing fewer Pulses at the moment just because I don't have room, and because Combo is out in more force where Pulse is worse than discard.

@ Moxen

They're fine for explosive turn 1 plays, but don't come crying when you get 2 land hands that don't go anywhere or draw them in the late game instead of the finisher that is DRS.

@ Esperblade

I was considering playing Loxodon Smiter at some split between main and board, since a 4/4 for 1GW that can't be countered and destroys Liliana is decent, but the main thing is this: Lingering Souls versions are GOOD against Jund, so you don't need more game against Liliana. Second, not having evasion makes you bad against Stoneblade. They're rarely countering your guys with hard counters, but you fear targeted removal ala Swords to Plowshares. I think this is where Thrun or more tokens shine. Thrun doesn't do MUCH, but uncounterable and untargetable gives Jund headaches as well, just like in Modern.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I'm playing fewer Pulses at the moment just because I don't have room, and because Combo is out in more force where Pulse is worse than discard.

True, but I'm thinking I'm going to lower my Swords count as they're usually in the same boat against combo (little-no use).

[Mirrislegend]

I was on moxen + DRS. I'm gonna try dropping the moxes. Here's what I'll be running once I get a chance:

4 DRS
4 Confidant
3 Goyf
3 Stoneforge
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 SDT
4 StP
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 BSKull
1 Jitte
1 SoLaS

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bog
3x Basic (one of each)
14 fetches and duals

SB:
3 Hymn
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 O Ring
3 ?

[damionblackgear]

1 SoLaS



Why SoLS > SoFI/SoBM/SoFF? While I don't like SoFF I can justify it more than SoLS in this meta. I'm a huge advocate of SoBM as it allows you to gain an alternate win-con and a blocker for the return attack. SoFI is currently what I'm using though.

[lavafrogg]

Hey guys!

I am back after a brief hiatus of work, Arizona is way to busy in the spring if you work in F and B. I dusted off my last list and swept through my local weekly 4-0. Nothing really big to point out except nothing had really changed since I last picked up this 75. I really want more life from the loam but graveyard hate is way to playable right now.....and most likely for the rest of Magic.

Here is the list if anyone doesn't remember it.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam

3 Lilliana of the Veil

3 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
6 Fetches

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Lingering Souls
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte

My only question: has anything really changed in the last few months?

@Mox Diamond: it used to be good when we had no turn one plays and our whole deck started at 2, now we have GSZ and DRS and do not need to skip the 1cc slot.

[Arsenal]

Playtested a bunch yesterday in anticipation of SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I played against RUG Delver, RiP Miracles, and PFires Jund primarily (I assume these to make a major showing at the Open). RUG Delver wasn't close most games; we run too much spot removal, threats, and discard for them to deal with. Unless they drop a Mongoose early, they just durdle around, digging for some kind of threat (which will most likely die to Abrupt Decay) while at the same time trying to answer every threat I drop (Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls were very, very strong vs. them) while I'm raping their hand with discard. All in all, I feel really good about the RUG Delver matchup.

RiP Miracles wasn't even close either. He won 1 game where he Jaced me to death, but to be fair, I drew exactly 2 threats before he got Jace online (DRS + Lingering Souls) and I couldn't get back from there. Again, I dropped 1 game in about the 6 we played. From what I could tell, RiP Miracles, even with Top/Brainstorm/ETutor, has a difficult time assembling the correct pieces needed to gain advantage/win. Like, he'd have Top in play, but couldn't get CBalance, or he'd have RiP in play, but couldn't find Energy Field/Helm of Awakening. My discard was brutal and I never really cared about any of his permanents other than Jace. Abrupt Decay > that deck if they are durdling around with Top, not interacting with us. Postboard, it was even more grim for him as I'm boarding in 2x Teeg, 2x Duress (that's 7 discard spells postboard), Choke, Pithing Needle, Oblivion Ring. Again, we run too many threats for them to deal with and we have Abrupt Decay to hit their key pieces.

PFire Jund. Damn. I felt good about the regular Jund matchup, but I got smoked pretty bad by PFire Jund. We only had 1 match, it went to 3 games, but holy God PFires Jund is dumb once it gets going. Definitely felt like they are the much better attrition deck. I won game 1 handedly off 2x Wasteland, I got manascrewed game 2, then he went nuts with 2x Hymn, then grinded the hell out of me until I died from DRS in game 3. I think I may run 1-2x Surgical Extraction in the SB to help in this matchup (if that even helps? idk); I've noticed people have cut Lightning Bolt altogether to make room for PFires, so if I can nab PFires with Surgical Extraction, then the only removal spells Jund is left with is LotV and Abrupt Decay.

I was leaning towards running traditional Reanimator, RUG Delver, or Junk at SCG Open Milwaukee and have decided to just run Junk. I think it's a versatile deck versus everything besides fast combo and I enjoy playing with it. Lots of interaction and lines of play that makes things interesting.

[Kich867]

I was leaning towards running traditional Reanimator, RUG Delver, or Junk at SCG Open Milwaukee and have decided to just run Junk. I think it's a versatile deck versus everything besides fast combo and I enjoy playing with it. Lots of interaction and lines of play that makes things interesting.

This is actually really important. Too many people pick a deck that they think is just better than another deck, but the reality of it is that you know when a deck you're playing just sort of feels right. You will play better with a deck you actually enjoy playing, than a deck that is supposed to be better than it.

This is another reason I'm putting Junk down lately. While I totally love the deck, and I also own Reanimator, I'm astronomically better at / more comfortable with Aggro Loam. The Rock is definitely my style of deck, but I never felt as comfortable as I do when playing Aggro Loam. So now I just need to figure out a way to beat combo.

[Claymore]

1. Draw your card for the turn, Sylvan trigger on the stack.

2. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

3. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

4. Pay 4 life for each of the cards drawn beyond the first, or put them back.

But, what if you start with no cards in hand?

1 - Natural draw (1 card)

2 - Discard the natural draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

3 - Discard the Sylvan draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

4 - Pay 8 life to keep one card, or pay 4 and put it back?

Or what happens if one of those Sylvan cards gets discarded so you end up with surplus cards but only 1 Sylvan drawn card? Hopefully I don't derail too much lol

[Arsenal]

In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

[Kich867]

In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

If they aren't bad there's almost no reliable way to beat an active Mother. You have to 2-for-1 yourself. If there are two out, I usually scoop, at that point they just drop a Mirran Crusader or a Knight and there's no way to race them.

[Claymore]

She can't protect from colorless sources, so you can use lands (Maze of Ith) to combat evasion or equipment (Jitte) to deal with her. It's harder to swing through the ground of course, so Lingering Souls helps there.

Also, Liliana.

Otherwise, you need to play around her ability and fight her on the stack with multiple removal spells.

[Kich867]

She can't protect from colorless sources, so you can use lands (Maze of Ith) to combat evasion or equipment (Jitte) to deal with her. It's harder to swing through the ground of course, so Lingering Souls helps there.

Also, Liliana.

Otherwise, you need to play around her ability and fight her on the stack with multiple removal spells.

If you can get a Jitte on a souls token you pretty much win the game, but otherwise, Jitte is completely useless against a mom. She Pro-Color's and no counters get added to it, can't even try and suicide your guys into them =/.

[Zombie]

This is actually really important. Too many people pick a deck that they think is just better than another deck, but the reality of it is that you know when a deck you're playing just sort of feels right. You will play better with a deck you actually enjoy playing, than a deck that is supposed to be better than it.

This is another reason I'm putting Junk down lately. While I totally love the deck, and I also own Reanimator, I'm astronomically better at / more comfortable with Aggro Loam. The Rock is definitely my style of deck, but I never felt as comfortable as I do when playing Aggro Loam. So now I just need to figure out a way to beat combo.

This so much ;___;
I loves Elves to bits, but playing vs. other combo decks is soul crushing. It's like, hey, I'm as fast as you, playing random discard spells doesn't interfere with my gameplan anywhere near as much as yours so G2/3 is still bad, and you likely have no interaction at all in G1, so I disrupt you and combo you out because you didn't slow me down. Just nothing apart from blind luck for you to do. Show and Tell's win con being 3cc makes it even worse, can't try to screw them over with a maindeck Teeg either >_<

[Esper3k]

But, what if you start with no cards in hand?

1 - Natural draw (1 card)

2 - Discard the natural draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

3 - Discard the Sylvan draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

4 - Pay 8 life to keep one card, or pay 4 and put it back?

Or what happens if one of those Sylvan cards gets discarded so you end up with surplus cards but only 1 Sylvan drawn card? Hopefully I don't derail too much lol

If you start with no cards in hand, it's as you described above. I believe it becomes 8 life to keep the 1 card since you did actually draw extra cards off of SL.

Essentially, if you have 0 cards in hand, don't use the SL trigger :)


In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

Yeah as others have said, Jitte is best, Liliana if you can manage it (typically tougher since they'll normally have other dudes out to pad Mom). Otherwise, eat your 2 for 1 and hope you had Bob out to offset the card disadvantage.

[Arsenal]

Although labeled as a Rock deck, this is actually closer to Deadguy Ale: 6th out of 64 in a European tourney http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10397&iddeck=75827.

That list is just about 4 Goyfs away from what I've been running the last month. I find it interesting that there were 3 different combo decks in the top 8, so I assume the overall meta must've been combo heavy. Glad to see this Deadguy Ale/Rock hybrid get there.

[Barbed Blightning]

In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

Lilly and jitte on a spirit definitely help; against mav an early lilly is essential to victory

[Mirrislegend]

Why SoLS > SoFI/SoBM/SoFF? While I don't like SoFF I can justify it more than SoLS in this meta. I'm a huge advocate of SoBM as it allows you to gain an alternate win-con and a blocker for the return attack. SoFI is currently what I'm using though.

Primarily for protection from StP and Abrupt Decay.

Note that without Lingering Souls' evasion, I can't depend on connecting with the opponent to make full use out of Swords' abilities, so the fantastic abilities of other Swords are less relevant. Also without LSouls, the SoLS helps provide extra beaters in the late game.

I'm aware that most readers will immediate respond "Just play LSouls!" My current build is focused on clocking the opponent asap while retaining cosistency, disruption, and options. There are no slots in the deck where LSouls is better at helping me reach those goals than the cards I already have there.

Addressing the other Swords:
- SoFI has always sucked for me. Can't explain it any more than that.
- SoFF is definitely worth a try. I originally dismissed it due to past experience (old combo was pretty exclusively Storm. BSkull was the equipment to get against them, even over SoFaF. Now combo is greatly evolved and a discard equipment looks sweet)
- SoBM is hilariously good if you're playing Surgical Extraction! Worth considering if I end up using Surgical in my SB.

[sdematt]

Against an active Mother of Runes, you need to swing in with something and have them block. Then, when they attempt to grant protection, you muck them with a removal spell. The match is easier with Garruk Relentless, since you can poop Deathtouch Wolves and make them use the protection (it gets better when Tracker shows up). Postboard, Deed and Golgari Charm just fucking level Maverick into the ground. Their only threat that survives either of those is Mirran Crusader and Knight.

For those of you running SFM, you should look into Manriki-Gusari again for the Esper matchup. Next-leveling your opponent by popping their Equipment is great. SoLaS is also decent now, even if you don't think so. STP and token proof is a big deal in the Esper matchup. Yes they can block with Snap, but there's nothing you can do.

I feel like I want more Pulses, yet I still want more hand disruption. I *may* shave GSZ down to 2 to fit in the second Pulse, but I'm not certain.

@ Punishing Fire Jund

Yes, P. Fire Jund is a much harder matchup, but remember that it's only by luck they're assembling the full combo. BBE is a beating, but remember he's only a 3/2. Just don't block Goyfs with Goyfs and get blown out. Darkblast is going to be VERY good in this matchup, as is Equipment, Souls, and Ulvenwald Tracker. Elspeth going over the top is also great, and so is Linvala if you're playing it. This is where luck and the better player win.


So I did some write-ups about where we wanted to be with each of the matchups, specifically regarding which role we want to be. I think we have to look at each matchup and say, "What are the ways we win this matchup, and what does it look like when I win?"

BUG/RUG Tempo:

Basically, all we care about are their creatures with evasion that we can do nothing about, including Mongoose, Tombstalker, Clique, and a flipped Delver. Save STP for Tombstalker if you need to, and Delver of Secrets if you cannot. Use Decay on Goyfs and Delvers, and play around Daze. As a control deck in this matchup, you don't NEED to play anything on the first turn right into Daze. You have more time that you think you do. Fetch basics on their upkeep to play around Stifle, and land Sylvan Library. Use Lingering Souls to push and/or buy time.

In the board, again you're playing control, but don't play into Daze. Watch out for Submerge.

A win against this deck looks like you having basic lands and one threat that went all the way, with them having no threats on board and several cards in hand.

Jund:

You care most about BBE, Liliana, and Punishing Fires combo being set up. Attempt to stall Punishing Fires/BBe development by killing Deathrite in some fashion; being ahead with DRS decides the game due to mana acceleration and as Liliana bait. You're good against Liliana, and you can survive and active Liliana if need be. Souls is key. Kill their Sylvan Library on site. Use tokens to gum up the board until Knight can come down and outclass their creatures. You're the control deck, run the long game.

In the board, again, you're the control deck. Sweepers, Lingering Souls, Sylvan Library.

Your win should probably include some combination of Knight, Lingering Souls, or Equipped creatures. They'll probably have 1-2 creatures out, and maybe an active Liliana. You'll have more lands. They shouldn't have Grove.

Esperblade:

In this matchup, you are the aggro deck. You're here to disrupt and clock. Deploy threats to harass Jace, you don't fear Terminus. Use Souls to match Souls or harass an impending Jace. Use discard to nab Equipment or Jace. Play around Supreme Verdict, but don't let it stop you from laying out multiple threats. You don't have much time once Jace lands.

In the postboard games, you fear Perish, Zealous Persecution, and Sword of Feast and Famine. Use Lingering Souls if necessary to block the creature with SoFF. Maze of Ith is important at controlling Jitte. Use Abrupt Decay and discard on Equipment; Gaddock Teeg and Sylvan Library should allow you to pull ahead. When you win, they could have Equipment but no creatures. They'll have a hand out conditional counters.

TES/ANT:

You're the disruption. You need a clock with disruption. Take tutors out of their hand or key mana acceleration pieces. Use Tarmogoyf to end the game as fast as possible. When this is on, fear a possible Empty the Warrens cycle, since they may not have enough mana to do a full Tendrils cycle.

After board, you bring out removal for disruption. Again, pressure with disruption. Gaddock Teeg, Goyf, Discard. Force them to go for the Empty the Warrens kill if possible, since you can handle it with Pulse and Charm. Lower life totals make Ad Nauseum less attractive and Empty more attractive. Force the plan!

A win looks like Goyf and lands against their empty board.

Sneak and Show/Omni

Beware of Emrakul and Griselbrand in any way they come down. You're the control deck. You need to find Karakas ASAP. Use disruption and a clock, like any other combo deck. Show and Tell is the card you fear the most.

After boarding, bring in Gaddock Teeg, Needle, Charm, etc. Bring out Abrupt Decay. A win for you look like their empty board and you have a Knight and Teeg. Swing with Knight if they have no Sneak Attack out, since they can't instant speed Emrakul you.

If playing against OmniTell, all you care about is Show and Tell. Lay Gaddock Teeg to prevent FoW and hardcasting shenanigans, along with stopping the Petals of Insight kill. Use Golgari Charm in response to the first Burning Wish.

Helm Miracles:

All you care about are playing around Terminus, getting rid of Rest in Peace, and Counterbalance somewhat. Rest in Peace slows your clock and enables their combo kill, but use discard to get rid of Sensei's Divining Top, which holds the deck together. A win for you looks like any board state where they don't have Rest in Peace out.

After board, you bring in Deed, Charm, Gaddock Teeg, and Pithing Needle. Use discard to shred Top or Rest in Peace, use Needle for Top or Helm. Gaddock Teeg stops Verdict, Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Helm, and Jace. Fetch basics against Blood Moon. Recall DRS gets around Leyline of Sanctity and Energy Field.

A win for you if again, you with Gaddock Teeg locking them out and other creatures/walkers slowly beating face.

Tribal:

Watch out for their card draw/advantage engines and kill them/discard them. Reejery, Nettle Sentinel, and Ringleader all qualify. Keep removal up for attackers like Piledriver and blowouts like Sharpshooter. Use Souls as blockers when you can so Tarmogoyf and Knight can outclass them all day.

A win looks like you killing them on the swing-back, back with removal pieces for remaining blockers.

In the board, you bring in Charm, Deed, etc. Don't overextend into your mass removal and kill their main pieces when you can. Fear Combo finishes (Krenko blowout, Natural Order, etc.).

Dredge:

You're the control deck. You need to keep them off of three creatures to prevent Dread Return. Sac creatures to kill Bridge from Below when possible, always go for Ooze and if not, use Shaman. You win because they have tokens out, but can't Dread Return. Ideally, they have no Bridges in the yard when you win.

Out of the board, you bring in Teeg, Surgical Extraction, Deed, and Golgari charm (to muck your own creatures to kill Bridges. Keep in some discard to fight early Breakthroughs. Surgically Extract key Dredgers in the early game or Dread Return targets/Bridge from Below.




-----

Thoughts? I think knowing what you're trying to do in each matchup is important so you know where your deck is going. Having a proactive game plan is important instead of being totally reactive.


-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

Against an active Mother of Runes, you need to swing in with something and have them block. Then, when they attempt to grant protection, you muck them with a removal spell. The match is easier with Garruk Relentless, since you can poop Deathtouch Wolves and make them use the protection (it gets better when Tracker shows up). Postboard, Deed and Golgari Charm just fucking level Maverick into the ground. Their only threat that survives either of those is Mirran Crusader and Knight.

For those of you running SFM, you should look into Manriki-Gusari again for the Esper matchup. Next-leveling your opponent by popping their Equipment is great. SoLaS is also decent now, even if you don't think so. STP and token proof is a big deal in the Esper matchup. Yes they can block with Snap, but there's nothing you can do.

I feel like I want more Pulses, yet I still want more hand disruption. I *may* shave GSZ down to 2 to fit in the second Pulse, but I'm not certain.

@ Punishing Fire Jund

Yes, P. Fire Jund is a much harder matchup, but remember that it's only by luck they're assembling the full combo. BBE is a beating, but remember he's only a 3/2. Just don't block Goyfs with Goyfs and get blown out. Darkblast is going to be VERY good in this matchup, as is Equipment, Souls, and Ulvenwald Tracker. Elspeth going over the top is also great, and so is Linvala if you're playing it. This is where luck and the better player win.

So I did some write-ups about where we wanted to be with each of the matchups, specifically regarding which role we want to be. I think we have to look at each matchup and say, "What are the ways we win this matchup, and what does it look like when I win?"

BUG/RUG Tempo:

Basically, all we care about are their creatures with evasion that we can do nothing about, including Mongoose, Tombstalker, Clique, and a flipped Delver. Save STP for Tombstalker if you need to, and Delver of Secrets if you cannot. Use Decay on Goyfs and Delvers, and play around Daze. As a control deck in this matchup, you don't NEED to play anything on the first turn right into Daze. You have more time that you think you do. Fetch basics on their upkeep to play around Stifle, and land Sylvan Library. Use Lingering Souls to push and/or buy time.

In the board, again you're playing control, but don't play into Daze. Watch out for Submerge.

A win against this deck looks like you having basic lands and one threat that went all the way, with them having no threats on board and several cards in hand.

Jund:

You care most about BBE, Liliana, and Punishing Fires combo being set up. Attempt to stall Punishing Fires/BBe development by killing Deathrite in some fashion; being ahead with DRS decides the game due to mana acceleration and as Liliana bait. You're good against Liliana, and you can survive and active Liliana if need be. Souls is key. Kill their Sylvan Library on site. Use tokens to gum up the board until Knight can come down and outclass their creatures. You're the control deck, run the long game.

In the board, again, you're the control deck. Sweepers, Lingering Souls, Sylvan Library.

Your win should probably include some combination of Knight, Lingering Souls, or Equipped creatures. They'll probably have 1-2 creatures out, and maybe an active Liliana. You'll have more lands. They shouldn't have Grove.

Esperblade:

In this matchup, you are the aggro deck. You're here to disrupt and clock. Deploy threats to harass Jace, you don't fear Terminus. Use Souls to match Souls or harass an impending Jace. Use discard to nab Equipment or Jace. Play around Supreme Verdict, but don't let it stop you from laying out multiple threats. You don't have much time once Jace lands.

In the postboard games, you fear Perish, Zealous Persecution, and Sword of Feast and Famine. Use Lingering Souls if necessary to block the creature with SoFF. Maze of Ith is important at controlling Jitte. Use Abrupt Decay and discard on Equipment; Gaddock Teeg and Sylvan Library should allow you to pull ahead. When you win, they could have Equipment but no creatures. They'll have a hand out conditional counters.

TES/ANT:

You're the disruption. You need a clock with disruption. Take tutors out of their hand or key mana acceleration pieces. Use Tarmogoyf to end the game as fast as possible. When this is on, fear a possible Empty the Warrens cycle, since they may not have enough mana to do a full Tendrils cycle.

After board, you bring out removal for disruption. Again, pressure with disruption. Gaddock Teeg, Goyf, Discard. Force them to go for the Empty the Warrens kill if possible, since you can handle it with Pulse and Charm. Lower life totals make Ad Nauseum less attractive and Empty more attractive. Force the plan!

A win looks like Goyf and lands against their empty board.

Sneak and Show/Omni

Beware of Emrakul and Griselbrand in any way they come down. You're the control deck. You need to find Karakas ASAP. Use disruption and a clock, like any other combo deck. Show and Tell is the card you fear the most.

After boarding, bring in Gaddock Teeg, Needle, Charm, etc. Bring out Abrupt Decay. A win for you look like their empty board and you have a Knight and Teeg. Swing with Knight if they have no Sneak Attack out, since they can't instant speed Emrakul you.

If playing against OmniTell, all you care about is Show and Tell. Lay Gaddock Teeg to prevent FoW and hardcasting shenanigans, along with stopping the Petals of Insight kill. Use Golgari Charm in response to the first Burning Wish.

Helm Miracles:

All you care about are playing around Terminus, getting rid of Rest in Peace, and Counterbalance somewhat. Rest in Peace slows your clock and enables their combo kill, but use discard to get rid of Sensei's Divining Top, which holds the deck together. A win for you looks like any board state where they don't have Rest in Peace out.

After board, you bring in Deed, Charm, Gaddock Teeg, and Pithing Needle. Use discard to shred Top or Rest in Peace, use Needle for Top or Helm. Gaddock Teeg stops Verdict, Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Helm, and Jace. Fetch basics against Blood Moon. Recall DRS gets around Leyline of Sanctity and Energy Field.

A win for you if again, you with Gaddock Teeg locking them out and other creatures/walkers slowly beating face.

Tribal:

Watch out for their card draw/advantage engines and kill them/discard them. Reejery, Nettle Sentinel, and Ringleader all qualify. Keep removal up for attackers like Piledriver and blowouts like Sharpshooter. Use Souls as blockers when you can so Tarmogoyf and Knight can outclass them all day.

A win looks like you killing them on the swing-back, back with removal pieces for remaining blockers.

In the board, you bring in Charm, Deed, etc. Don't overextend into your mass removal and kill their main pieces when you can. Fear Combo finishes (Krenko blowout, Natural Order, etc.).

Dredge:

You're the control deck. You need to keep them off of three creatures to prevent Dread Return. Sac creatures to kill Bridge from Below when possible, always go for Ooze and if not, use Shaman. You win because they have tokens out, but can't Dread Return. Ideally, they have no Bridges in the yard when you win.

Out of the board, you bring in Teeg, Surgical Extraction, Deed, and Golgari charm (to muck your own creatures to kill Bridges. Keep in some discard to fight early Breakthroughs. Surgically Extract key Dredgers in the early game or Dread Return targets/Bridge from Below.

-----

Thoughts? I think knowing what you're trying to do in each matchup is important so you know where your deck is going. Having a proactive game plan is important instead of being totally reactive.

-Matt

Surgicals should target narcomoeba, ichorid or nether shadow first. They need real creatures before they can make fake ones. StP pimps asap.

[Zombie]

re:Elves, we like our Wirewood Symbiotes and Quirion Rangers staying alive very much, they allow us to Maze of Ith basically anything grounded. Flying Jittes can be answered, but are generally nightmarish. Teeg makes flying Jittes hard to answer because it shuts down GSZ. Teeg also stops NO=>Regal for a new hand and a big beater, and NO=>Prog from the side. Elves generally have a surprisingly amazing fair game, but that can be dealt with. Just don't underestimate them or you'll die. Kill the bouncers. Nettle Sentinel is irrelevant. Land Teeg, protect Teeg, and kill the bouncers.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been doing more tweaks, and I have dropped GSZ completely. I think Stoneforge is a better toolbox route, and I really, really want Lingering Souls in my maindeck. I've been thinking a lot about it, and I have come to this conclusion:

Lingering Souls is Serra Angel, pure and simple, and SA was at one time *the best* white creature you could play. The more things change, the more they stay the same...


4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler


3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Lingering Souls
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard:

3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Choke
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Vindicate


So now the big open question for me is this: folks have been talking about Hero of Bladehold, mostly in Deadguy Ale. Someone just mentioned it about a page pack in this thread, and I want to dig in a little further (even though I think I have settled on a pretty damn good list for now. I just need a Karakas and I'll be in great shape...) Hero is one hell of a threat, even if it does cost 4 mana. I borrowed from Deadguy for the Sculler technology, which has worked out fantastic for me. I'd love to hear some thoughts on it. It seems too high on the curve at 4 mana, but I already play close the critical mass of 3-drops in my deck (total of 7: 3 Knights, 2 Souls, 2 Lilianas)

What do folks think about Hero?

[AggroSteve]

What do folks think about Hero?

actually i do not like him, he costs 4 mana and has the exact same manacost as elspeth which i think is superior to hero

[sdematt]

I can't believe I forgot about Stony Silence. I was looking for a slot that does well against Helm as well as Esper, and that's the card. Needle also does work in hitting Griselbrand and Jace, but Stony is brutality against Top, Equipment, Helm, etc. It'll really help swing the match against Esper, I think. Not being able to Equip nor use Jitte abilities seems FINE to me.

My sideboard at the moment:

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stony Silence
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (but also open)
2 Golgari Charm
2 Open/Hymn/Duress

I'm not running any artifacts of my own, so I'm okay with Stony. Might not be so good in the Equipment builds.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

Jitte is so strong against Esper but they need it more agains us than we do against them since our guys are generally bigger.

Don't forget, Stony Silence can also come in against TES too.

[Chatto]

Question: does Null Rod do the same as Stony Silence? If I read the oracle-text it looks like it, but I'm not entirely sure...

[Arsenal]

It does, but artifact removal is more prevelant than enchantment removal, so I'm sure that helps in giving Stony Silence the edge.

[AggroSteve]

It does, but artifact removal is more prevelant than enchantment removal, so I'm sure that helps in giving Stony Silence the edge.

this is probably true, but i think if the issue is having the cards available null rod will do just as fine, and has less requirements to your manabase, but that should not really be a problem

[Arsenal]

Stony Silence is like a $.99 rare that is Standard legal, so card availability shouldn't be an issue. I think if you're looking to run something like that, Stony Silence gets the nod.

[sdematt]

Stony Silence is like a $.99 rare that is Standard legal, so card availability shouldn't be an issue. I think if you're looking to run something like that, Stony Silence gets the nod.

Helps stop the colour fixing in Sneak since they need Petals to lay down multiple Sneak Attackers, usually. The bonus against Storm is also decent.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Just got the "OK" for SCG KC this weekend. Bringing the deck down. Have most of the list figured but running out of ideas/inspiration.

This is where I am:


1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2-3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

2-4 Swords to Plowshares
2-4 Abrupt Decay

1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Open (Thinking Pernicious Deed or Maelstrom Pulse #2 for one space)

Anyone have idea(s)? I am open to suggestion but I do value the "Why" a lot.

[AggroSteve]

i would definitely run deed in these 2 open slots, they are awesome right now... i am running 2 MD and i have been so happy with them i couldn't see myself leaving home without them anymore

i have to admit i really like the MD elspeth though, as i am thinking of moving her from my SB to the MD against all the grindy decks out there right now, plus she is a very good jace-killer (the card i fear the most having no pulse/vindicate in MD/SB)
also i like the kitchen finks in the SB, they probalby are very good in the jund matchup, how have your testings been with finks?
also i have been wondering how the treetop village has been for u so far,.... and also wondering how you can efford so much space for utilitylands/cipt lands, don't they slow you down?

anyway good luck with your list

[damionblackgear]

also i like the kitchen finks in the SB, they probalby are very good in the jund matchup, how have your testings been with finks?
also i have been wondering how the treetop village has been for u so far,.... and also wondering how you can efford so much space for utilitylands/cipt lands, don't they slow you down?

anyway good luck with your list

So far, Finks has been great. It may be that I should use Lingering Souls instead for that spot but Finks has done everything that you'd really want except be discard.

The manabase is something that hasn't really changed too much since Knight made my list (was using Exploration then instead of any fixer). I haven't had too many issue with it. When GSZ got added I went to 1 basic Forest and added Arbor as another way to Ramp when needed. Arbor can typically be considered a CIP land since we can't use it until it's not sick anyway. I do lose being able to sac Arbor to edict effects but I gain more resilience to Terminus.

[KobeBryan]

So far, Finks has been great. It may be that I should use Lingering Souls instead for that spot but Finks has done everything that you'd really want except be discard.

The manabase is something that hasn't really changed too much since Knight made my list (was using Exploration then instead of any fixer). I haven't had too many issue with it. When GSZ got added I went to 1 basic Forest and added Arbor as another way to Ramp when needed. Arbor can typically be considered a CIP land since we can't use it until it's not sick anyway. I do lose being able to sac Arbor to edict effects but I gain more resilience to Terminus.

whats the point of the single tarmogoyf?

[damionblackgear]

whats the point of the single tarmogoyf?

I'd cut it if I could get another green Beater at 1-2cc. I'm not a fan of the Stare Contest Champ. I had it cut until Canadian Thresh became a big thing in the format again.

[Koplinchen]

Matt - I think that after you hit Storm/TES with discard you want to GSZ for Scavenging Ooze. Tarmo is in my exp not fast enough. You want to shut down their PiF kill. Usually you find some confidant to add a few points of dmg.

Good list!

[ryn ball_2]

Went first in a 10-man 4 rounder (4-0), here's my quick list

1 sigarda, host of herons
1 scavenging ooze
3 knight of the reliquary
3 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman

3 green sun's zenith
3 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize

3 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares

2 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 savannah
2 scrubland
3 bayou
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats

SB

1 maelstrom pulse
1 ethersworn canonist
2 timely reinforcements
2 obstinate baloth
2 extirpate
2 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
3 engineered plague

R1 vs mbc: 2-0, baloth via his liliana +1 FTW
R2 vs jund: 2-0, baloth FTW again
R3 vs reanimator: 2-0
R4 vs UWR Rest in Pieces miracle: 2-0

Notes: my SB i quite tune for my local shop meta cuz 2-3 players played goblins, 2 players played elves!, 2 players played merfolk but this time only 1 tribal deck (elves!) my 3 plagues totally not worth it. In my SB i want to play 4 baloth but wasn't able to get other 2 copies so atm i used 2 timely, I love obstinate baloth!. I cut my 4th KOTR to give room for 1 sigarda.

Thanks!

[Mr. Safety]

Just got the "OK" for SCG KC this weekend. Bringing the deck down. Have most of the list figured but running out of ideas/inspiration.

This is where I am:


1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2-3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

2-4 Swords to Plowshares
2-4 Abrupt Decay

1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Open (Thinking Pernicious Deed or Maelstrom Pulse #2 for one space)

Anyone have idea(s)? I am open to suggestion but I do value the "Why" a lot.

With that many singletons/2-ofs wouldn't you want to play the full 4 GSZ? Just curious...

[Sughayyer]

Inspired by an Eva Green list posted by Esper 3k I assembled this one:

4 d shaman
4 bob
4 tarmogoyf
4 l souls (those COULD be knights but I have not enough lands to support/abuse them)
1 tombstalker (might be anything, really, but it packs a great punch late-game)

4 thoughtseize
2 IoK
4 hymn to tourach
(yeah a bit too much but it's working wonders for me!!!)
4 stp
4 decay

2 liliana

2 sensei's divining top

4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
3 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
1 horizon canopy

side varies but mostly including deed, o-ring, extirpate etc
didn't test the much I wanted to but for the while I'm liking it :)

I also saw that bw tokens with g splash that someone linked here, and it seems nice.... But I think punishing jund will give it a hard time.

[damionblackgear]

With that many singletons/2-ofs wouldn't you want to play the full 4 GSZ? Just curious...

Typically yes, you'd want 4 Zenith. I'm not a fan of virtual copies though and everything (except pridemage) can be categorized into different groups (where some fall into multiple). When you look at it that way the numbers come across differently.

Birds+Shaman = 3 Mana Fixer/Accelerates
Goyf, Knights, Sigarda, and Elspeth = 5-6 Power hitters
Pridemage, Decay, Pulse = 5 Non-creature alternatives.
etc, etc.

The board is meant to compliment the main and improve situations. It's not intended to completely revamp the gameplan against them.

[Mr. Safety]

Makes sense...it just looked like your list was more of a toolbox build than anything else. When you break it down, you're just using a diversified threat base and utilizing GSZ to make sure you can adapt, either in the main or side. Good conversation, I've always liked your approach to deckbuilding (although, you have to admit, it's a little quirky...)

[sdematt]

Any updates?

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

good morning guys

i thought about posting my recent list, and i would need some feedback maybe, and your thoughts on it, specially on the sideboar

23 land (61 cards total)

4 march flats
4 verdatnt catacombs
3 overgrown tomb (hopefully soon bayou)
2 godless shrine (hobefully soon scrubland)
1 temple garden (hopefully soon savannah)
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
3 wastland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 dryad arbor

16 creatures

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
1 quasali pridemage

15 spells

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 green sun's zenith
2 inquisition of kozilek / cabal therapy (which one do you guys think is the better one for this slot? which one do you prefer?)
4 thoughtseize

artifact/enchantment

2 sensei's divining top
2 pernicious deed (have been awesome in a lot of matchups for me as of late, only worry being not to be able to answer a resolved jace MD)

3 planeswalker

2 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight-errant

SIDEBOARD

3 extirpate
2 golgari charm
1 darkblast
1 abrupt decay
1 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler / hymn to tourach (leaning towards sculler, specially vs. combo)
2 pithing needle / kitchen finks / timely reinforcements (not sure what to pick, would probably depend on the expected meta... miracles/esperblade vs. jund/rug/burn)

my questions:

- would the split between overgrown tomb and godless shrine favor more tombs or shrines considering all my spells, specially WW cost of elspeth?
- cabal therapy or inquisition ? which one is better in this list considering mediocre expierience with therapy, but therapy being able to generate card advantage/getting a jace to whom i have no MD answer, plus considering the scullers in SB?
- what is everyones expierience with running cabal therapy even in non-souls builds?
- needle vs. finks/reinforcements, considering that i have no MD answer to jace, and only having shocklands, therefore a lot of lifeloss plus considering the possible cabal therapy MD
- how has maze of ith been for everyone?, i have tried a while without it, but i often come back to it, because it is awesome against any deck running equipment, which is the main reason for me still sticking to this awesomeness, but having a non-mana producing land sometimes sucks (i tried horizon canopy in this slot as well, and i would love to fit 1 or 2 of them in the deck as they are really good specially once you are in topdeckmode, but do not know where, and i do not know if they would work well with the allready strong lifeloss present in my list)

additional thoughts

i am a little lighter to blue decks with my MD-configuration, but have more game against deck that have to commit to the board, but i think maindeck deeds right now are really good, as in most matchups we take the control-role, and a catch-all sweeper is the most awesome thing in that case IMO
i picked divining top over library specifically for that reason as i do not want to lose my library manipulation to myself being forced to deed away my opponents board
both decisions make my matchup against jacedeck a bit harder but help against most other decks in the current meta

so guys hammer me with your comments and critique :P, and thanks in advance

[damionblackgear]

Hey everyone, Things did not turn out well this weekend. Not sure if I was mentally sabotaging myself, the deck wanted me to play maverick some games but ti was not pretty, or both (probably both). Ended up 2-3 before I dropped.

Played Against:
Merfolk(0-2): Played SFM and fetched SoFI knowing my opp had a second lord in hand to complement the first.
Hightide (0-2): Opponent thought they were playing maverick w/o Teeg or Thalia until turn 4 of game 2 - first black source (fetchland).
Dredge (2-0): Opponent got hit by probability and only hit 1 thing that could come into play at a time. DRS took care of those. Game 2 I had the nuts.
Esper (2-1): Double bob vs Jace = Double bob win. Opp also did know that Decay was uncounterable and blew a force on it.
Sneak Show (1-2): Game 1 Opp took, I took 2. Game 3 I kept Hymn, Birds, Lili, Pridemage + lands and Opp went turn 2 Demon no draw had the Force for Lili. Needed a Knight instead of Lili.

Overall, Poor play on my part and poor draws (possibly design) turned out poorly.


- how has maze of ith been for everyone?, i have tried a while without it, but i often come back to it, because it is awesome against any deck running equipment, which is the main reason for me still sticking to this awesomeness, but having a non-mana producing land sometimes sucks (i tried horizon canopy in this slot as well, and i would love to fit 1 or 2 of them in the deck as they are really good specially once you are in topdeckmode, but do not know where, and i do not know if they would work well with the allready strong lifeloss present in my list)

I used Kor Haven before I used the Maze. It has an activation cost but it leaves the creature tapped and only stops that creatures damage.

[Kich867]

I used Kor Haven before I used the Maze. It has an activation cost but it leaves the creature tapped and only stops that creatures damage.

I've -strongly- considered going to Kor Haven over Maze of Ith for awhile now. The fact that they stay tapped is an enormous deal--and it taps for mana. Something that Maze of Ith sorely, sorely lacks. Plus, we aren't maverick, and I rarely use the "Attack, after combat untap my knight, eot pump knight" trick. Though maybe I should be.

Also, for the Stoneblade matchup, why do we not sneak a singleton Tower of the Magistrate in the side? Tutorable way to stop their bullshit with Stoneforge. If they can't equip a creature or keep a batterskull around this matchup seems steeply in our favor--most esper lists don't run Wasteland either.

Also, I lied, totally not playing Aggro Loam. I played it again and it felt very wrong. So I buckled down and got myself a Karakas, finally and looking to trade off most of my good blue stuff for Goyfs and Thoughtseizes.. I remember just thinking, "Wow this is not nearly as good / as fun as playing The Rock."

[Arsenal]

Hey everyone, Things did not turn out well this weekend. Not sure if I was mentally sabotaging myself, the deck wanted me to play maverick some games but ti was not pretty, or both (probably both). Ended up 2-3 before I dropped.

Played Against:
Merfolk(0-2): Played SFM and fetched SoFI knowing my opp had a second lord in hand to complement the first.
Hightide (0-2): Opponent thought they were playing maverick w/o Teeg or Thalia until turn 4 of game 2 - first black source (fetchland).
Dredge (2-0): Opponent got hit by probability and only hit 1 thing that could come into play at a time. DRS took care of those. Game 2 I had the nuts.
Esper (2-1): Double bob vs Jace = Double bob win. Opp also did know that Decay was uncounterable and blew a force on it.
Sneak Show (1-2): Game 1 Opp took, I took 2. Game 3 I kept Hymn, Birds, Lili, Pridemage + lands and Opp went turn 2 Demon no draw had the Force for Lili. Needed a Knight instead of Lili.

Overall, Poor play on my part and poor draws (possibly design) turned out poorly.



I used Kor Haven before I used the Maze. It has an activation cost but it leaves the creature tapped and only stops that creatures damage.

Bad beats man, we all have 'em. What would you have changed about your 75 in order to better position yourself against that meta?

[damionblackgear]

Bad beats man, we all have 'em. What would you have changed about your 75 in order to better position yourself against that meta?

I should probably start with what I ended up with.

1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sylvan Library
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Pernicious Deed


The list wasn't exactly what I wanted but I was running low on cards and didn't bring things down with me so I borrowed some things to occupy space and hopefully be useful (i.e. Library in board).

If that, some things didn't preform as well as they could have. Souls got the nod over Finks (I think I mentioned that I was thinking it earlier) and I wasn't upset at all for that change. I'd say try them both to anyone thinking about them and see which you like better.

As far as changes, I saw this mid change so I'm still going over things. This is what I've done so far (don't expect major changes):

-1 Horizon Canopy
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
+1 Scrubland
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Lingering Souls

Reasoning: Souls showed that it was a very good card and was able to show that it does have a place even without equipment. Making Jace seem awkward is a good thing. I do, however, not want to see it all the time. So, I'm going to try it over Elspeth and Sigarda who also were being used for that effect.
I'm adding the Scrub as my color requirements are not what they where years ago and I was off on the green;black count so, Canopy --> Scrub seemed to be the best change that would accompany the change.

The Swords;Decay ratio seemed to be pretty good for me but I don't think that you need the swords as soon as you use to. The creature decks are missing (granted I played against Folk) or limited in numbers. I'd be willing to drop them soon but I'd like to make my way there first.

Board (easier to just post where I am)


3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach


Deed didn't feel necessary and Library was more filler than anything. So, Now I'm looking at options for the 4 slots that

[Mirrislegend]

Can someone explain how LSouls functions in your deck?

When I played LSouls, it sucked. So why is it so great for you?

[Kich867]

Can someone explain how LSouls functions in your deck?

When I played LSouls, it sucked. So why is it so great for you?

Lingering Souls usually accompanies Stoneforge Mystic. However, the biggest purpose for it is that it's flexible and it's a lot of dudes at once.

It's also a good way to help break the symmetry of Liliana of the Veil. It's also an excellent use of Cabal Therapy flashbacks, it pressures planeswalkers better than other creatures in our deck, and the tokens wear equipment like champs.

I personally mainly used it to flashback Cabal Therapies.

[Arsenal]

As a Souls player, it's usefulness boils down to your matchups. If you're playing against nothing but combo, then it'll suck hard as it does less than nothing versus them. If you're playing against control, midrange grindy decks, or decks that sport a very light creature base (RUG Delver for example), it's awesome. If I'm ahead, It allows me to apply pressure while committing very little, letting me hold back on casting Goyf/SFM/etc while my opponent finds an answer to my 2-4 1/1 flyers. If I'm even with my opponent, it often times will swing the board in my favor as Flying > underrated in Legacy combat and helps break the ground stall. If I'm behind, they can buy me a couple turns for me to dig for an answer to their board position. In every phase of the game, they're never dead.

[Kich867]

As a Souls player, it's usefulness boils down to your matchups. If you're playing against nothing but combo, then it'll suck hard as it does less than nothing versus them. If you're playing against control, midrange grindy decks, or decks that sport a very light creature base (RUG Delver for example), it's awesome. If I'm ahead, It allows me to apply pressure while committing very little, letting me hold back on casting Goyf/SFM/etc while my opponent finds an answer to my 2-4 1/1 flyers. If I'm even with my opponent, it often times will swing the board in my favor as Flying > underrated in Legacy combat and helps break the ground stall. If I'm behind, they can buy me a couple turns for me to dig for an answer to their board position. In every phase of the game, they're never dead.

Yeah, I would regularly board them out against combo decks to bring in more hate. Or as many as I could at least after boarding out all my removal.

[Chatto]

Lingering Souls usually accompanies Stoneforge Mystic. However, the biggest purpose for it is that it's flexible and it's a lot of dudes at once.

So I tried to make the LSouls and Mystics work, but it failed miserably. I played a little tournament this weekend, and it sucked bad... Everytime I played Mystic it would meet removal of some sort. There was no way I could connect the equipment with LSouls. Even if Mystic would hit the board, the equipment would get discarded out of my hand. I'm planning to play the GSZ/ LSouls again, because it felt much better: it also looks much more suited in my meta (which is a weird brew of grindy- and combo-matchups)

Perhaps I'm playing it all wrong, but I just felt to slow. I do however agree LSouls can help a lot in those grindy matchups: flying tokens just are so hard to battle against (especially when you're playing discard after discard or have a Lily online). It is also my first set of cards to side out against combo. So I see the purpose and uses of LSouls, but I get more and more convinced to use it alongside GSZ.

[dballard]

So what's the latest consensus on the removal package now as far as StP, Abupt Decay, Pulse/Vindicate? Sounds like from the last few weeks people are maybe stepping away from StP a little and feeling like they need more from Pulse/Vindicate? I'm still running a 4/4/2 split but I do feel like it's a couple too many. Me dilemma is what would I replace them with?

[Kich867]

So what's the latest consensus on the removal package now as far as StP, Abupt Decay, Pulse/Vindicate? Sounds like from the last few weeks people are maybe stepping away from StP a little and feeling like they need more from Pulse/Vindicate? I'm still running a 4/4/2 split but I do feel like it's a couple too many. Me dilemma is what would I replace them with?

That's really way too many, we have Bob and Library, having a removal spell shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I'm considering going down to 7, but I currently run 8 which I feel is way too much. 3/3/1 of Plow / Decay / Pulse is what I'll likely do.

I'd rather have a little more disruption or another threat than another removal spell. Though I also run Liliana, whom should be counted as somewhat of a removal spell, I think I'm packing 3 of her so really, it's more 3/3/3/1 removal.

[Mr. Safety]

good morning guys

i thought about posting my recent list, and i would need some feedback maybe, and your thoughts on it, specially on the sideboar

SIDEBOARD

3 extirpate
2 golgari charm
1 darkblast
1 abrupt decay
1 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler / hymn to tourach (leaning towards sculler, specially vs. combo)
2 pithing needle / kitchen finks / timely reinforcements (not sure what to pick, would probably depend on the expected meta... miracles/esperblade vs. jund/rug/burn)

so guys hammer me with your comments and critique :P, and thanks in advance

1) With Bobs, Thoughtseizes, AND such a painful mana-base, you need maindeck lifegain somewhere in your starting 60. It's just reality. I strongly suggest Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte/Batterskull. Burn/Zoo is already a bad matchup, the shock-lands will make it nigh unwinnable. Mystic/Jitte/Batterskull will go a long ways towards evening up the odds and gaining back some life. I realize you have tried this and if I remember rightly, it didn't work well for you. If that is the case, I think you should maindeck 2+ kitchen finks. They are fantastic at combating aggro and do a lot of work defensively. Offensively, they aren't bad either. They also go really well with the next point...

2) Cabal Therapy is the clear winner over Inquisition of Kozilek if you are using Kitchen Finks maindeck. Yes it makes your Finks into a Goblin Piker, and no it isn't a big deal because you are gaining lots of value with the persist (lifegain, double up on hand disruption.) You are simply complementing Thoughtseize anyways, which you are already playing 4 of. If you somehow wanted to work in Lingering Souls AND Kitchen Finks, I think at that point you need to evaluate a possible 3rd Cabal Therapy (but don't cut any Thoughtseizes, they are just too important against combo. Wish I had 4 myself...)

3) I'm a huge fan of Tidehollow Sculler, most folks know this already. I play 2 in the main and I wish I could make it 3, but there isn't enough room. I also wish I could put 2 in the board, but again, there just isn't room. Whenever I draw it, I love it. Its one of those cards that I've been associated with at my local shop, and I've done well with it. I think playing 2 somewhere in the 75 is correct, and if you have 3 spots it's not bad to play 3. I like it better than Hymn to Tourach, but I understand where Hymn can be better (against tempo decks and burn.)

4) If you decide to go for Stoneforge Mystic + equips...Vampire Nighthawk is just straight up bad-ass, in such a good way. At that point you are teetering towards playing Deadguy Ale, which isn't a bad thing at all. I play a similar plan to Deadguy Ale, the green is just for better threats and removal. It's another source of lifegain, blocks Griselbrand, and equips like a champ.

5) Golgari Charm and Darkblast do essentially the same thing: deal with multiple little dudes. Charm is better against Maverick (moms), Darkblast is better against Lingering Souls/Snapcaster Mage/etc because it is always available (and it makes your Knights/Goyfs BETTER with the dredging.) I would play one or the other, but not both. I think the Charms, overall, are a more flexible option.

6) If you don't see any Affinity in your area, consider using Ethersworn Canonist in your sideboard. It hoses cascade (Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent) and keeps Storm decks honest. It even has some value against burn, slowing them down long enough to get a lifegain plan moving. If they bolt Canonist, great. That's one less bolt to the face. It's a really great option that most folks don't think about anymore. I wouldn't leave home without them (2 in my sideboard.)

Phew...I think that's enough to be getting with, don't you think? I hope it was helpful. I've been in your shoes, playing shocklands instead of real dual lands. It's tough, but doable. I ended up using 4 maindeck Kitchen Finks and going a semi-Pox avenue with Smallpox, Life from the Loam, and Raven's Crime. It's a different deck, but potentially good.

Good luck!

[Mr. Safety]

That's really way too many, we have Bob and Library, having a removal spell shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I'm considering going down to 7, but I currently run 8 which I feel is way too much. 3/3/1 of Plow / Decay / Pulse is what I'll likely do.

I'd rather have a little more disruption or another threat than another removal spell. Though I also run Liliana, whom should be counted as somewhat of a removal spell, I think I'm packing 3 of her so really, it's more 3/3/3/1 removal.

Very similar here:

4x StP
3x Decay
2x Liliana
1x Vindicate (sideboard)

9 in the main, 10 total

StP will always be tops in my book, simply because it's easier to cast against decks using Wasteland against you and it hits *anything* that doesn't have shroud/hexproof. Decay is amazing, but I often find that it falls short because the format has shifted slightly to using more 4+ mana threats BECAUSE of Decay. Still worth 3 slots, but not 4. Vindicate is my 4th Decay placeholder because I want a way to deal with planeswalkers outside of attacking them. I traded away all of my Pulses, which I regret, but I do like that Vindicate can hit lands on occasion. It can act like a 5th Wasteland, which can be quite good against some decks. Liliana pulls so much weight that I don't mind missing the maindeck Vindicate or the 4th Decay. If I could squeeze in a 3rd, I would.

[Mirrislegend]

So I tried to make the LSouls and Mystics work, but it failed miserably. I played a little tournament this weekend, and it sucked bad... Everytime I played Mystic it would meet removal of some sort. There was no way I could connect the equipment with LSouls. Even if Mystic would hit the board, the equipment would get discarded out of my hand. I'm planning to play the GSZ/ LSouls again, because it felt much better: it also looks much more suited in my meta (which is a weird brew of grindy- and combo-matchups)

Perhaps I'm playing it all wrong, but I just felt to slow. I do however agree LSouls can help a lot in those grindy matchups: flying tokens just are so hard to battle against (especially when you're playing discard after discard or have a Lily online). It is also my first set of cards to side out against combo. So I see the purpose and uses of LSouls, but I get more and more convinced to use it alongside GSZ.

I had the same issue! I had FIVE draws on that day and never played LSouls in Junk after that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My removal has been 4 StP, 3 Abrupt Decay but I play a removal light build. I'm testing -1 StP, +1 Pulse.

[sdematt]

I really want another Pulse, but with all the combo in the format, like I said, I can't really cut hand disruption.

Souls is still very good against a ton of decks. I may try Kor-Haven in the Maze slot though, it does what I want it to do and keeps them tapped. The mana might be an issue, but we'll see.

-Matt

[sdematt]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10417&iddeck=75967

Second place in a GPT with 43 players.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10417&iddeck=75967

Second place in a GPT with 43 players.

-Matt

it is rather intresting that the dark horizon builds are doin pretty well right now. what do you guys think about that?

[Claymore]

Such a random sideboard...

[Arsenal]

I think in a combo/control meta, Dark Horizons build can do very well as it's geared more toward the traditional "rip apart your hand, then lay a fatty" plan than other builds are. I think that if your meta has grindy decks, or decks that are threat-lite, Dark Horizons won't be quite as strong.

EDIT: 2nd place out of 64 players in a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10421&iddeck=76001. This build opts for a GSZ-toolbox approach. I think the Dark Horizons, GSZ, and SFM/Souls builds can all do well in the right meta.

[Sughayyer]

We could develop a dark horizons that shifts toward grindy matches post sb - or the opposite.
What do you think? could it be viable?

[Chatto]

EDIT: 2nd place out of 64 players in a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10421&iddeck=76001. This build opts for a GSZ-toolbox approach. I think the Dark Horizons, GSZ, and SFM/Souls builds can all do well in the right meta.

Interesting: no StP in the main, something I would not consider.

[Kich867]

Sorry I'm a little confused, what constitutes Dark Horizons, because I look at that list and see no Horizon Canopy's. It looks like a rock list to me.

[Arsenal]

Although it has since ditched Horizon Canopy, the name still applies to any deck running the classic creature suite, running Hymn to Tourach, no GSZ/SFM/Souls, and running Sensei's Divining Top; basically the way Rock was built in 2009/10.

EDIT: An example of Dark Horizons in 2011: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5697&iddeck=41235 and http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5481&iddeck=39679. Obviously, there was no Abrupt Decay, DRS, or Liliana of the Veil back then, but you see the basic structure of the deck. Dark Horizons 2013 lists don't vary that much from what was run years ago.

[Sughayyer]

Sorry I'm a little confused, what constitutes Dark Horizons, because I look at that list and see no Horizon Canopy's. It looks like a rock list to me.

dark horizons is one of the many the rock variations. It's purpose is to achieve tempo advantage and resource denial (hence vindicate, hymn, gerrard's veredict and mox), and attempting to build a momentun and end the game fast with cheap but powerful creatures.

[sdematt]

So a very good friend of mine who judges and has played U/W since Mental misstep were testing/talking about sideboards for the expected metagame of a large tournament.

My initial sideboard was this:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Golgari Charm

We talked about his Esperblade sideboard and talked about how Humility is super good with Lingering Souls, just as Humility was with Thopterbalance back in the day. Humility also wrecks Sneak and Show.

If we're the deck playing Lingering Souls, Humility becomes a backbreaker in certain creature-based matchups, like Maverick, Jund, Tribal, etc. It also serves awesome duty against Sneak and Show. It slows out clock, but not automatically losing is a good thing.

He also noted that Gaddock Teeg was something I basically want infinite copies of. He suggested upping the slots in the board to 3. It's a card that when you want it, you want it all day long. I kind of agree with this, but with 3 GSZ, we'll see.

Golgari Charm is good against the Souls mirror and serves double duty against Helm and against Elves, Supreme Verdict, etc. Zealous is BETTER in the Souls mirror specifically, so I'll run the 1/1 split again.

Elspeth is there as the go-big slots against Esper and Jund. You need something like their Jace that sets you apart. Elspeth is bonkers, but so is Garruk Relentless. But, Elspeth is heartier against Punishing Fires.




2 Surgical Extraction is doing much against actual graveyard based decks, as much as I'd like it to. It has slim play against Combo decks, but as a graveyard slot, it's not really a thing. There's little different between T0 gravehate and T1 gravehate. We have Ooze and DRS, but those are slower, particular answers that need time to set up. You're not going to win against LED Dredge with a DRS. Grafdigger's Cage totally destroys any graveyard based deck, and Spellbomb can empty the graveyard until you have time to get an Ooze or DRS up and running.

Deed is still very relevant against a large portion of the meta, so we didn't change it.

With Pithing Needle, it was my slot against Sensei's Divining Top when Miracles was THE deck for a while. Needle shuttered their deck, but now that Esper is back and Helm sees equal-ish amounts of play, I needed a card against both decks. Needle against Esper is relatively bad, since there's too many targets to hit. So, Stony Silence mucks the Helm deck by hitting Top, EE, Helm, etc., and it hits the Equipment and EE in Esperblade, which makes it a bit better of a matchup. Also, it has marginal value against Storm's artifact-based acceleration, and if some random shows up with Affinity, welcome to value-town. Population: you.

Tracker is still great in the creature matchups.

So, here's the board I'm like to run at Seattle, assuming no meta shifts:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Sigarda or Humility
2 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress

It's a lot of random 1-of's, but they overlap in many, many matchups.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Updated.

[Claymore]

I think the rising popularity has made double golgari charm more important than the golgari/zealous split.

[sdematt]

I think the rising popularity has made double golgari charm more important than the golgari/zealous split.

Popularity of RIP/Helm, you mean?

-Matt