[Deck] The Rock

[feline]

I couldn't believe it when I talked to you around round 5 or 6 and you said "Yea I've gone up against ad nauseam storm type decks 4 times now" that was dumb!

Also yes, I never went against any stoneblade decks either, but I hit Jund twice, elves twice, and then other random stuff from the format.

[sdematt]

This was the list I played on Sunday at SCG Seattle:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls

--BOARD--

2 Golgari charm
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Humility

Humility was great along with Sorin, and just beats up on Elves/Merfolk/Combo. It's not the greatest against DnT. The best cards int he board all day were Thalia and Gaddock Teeg though, but this might be biased considering I played 4 Storm Combo.

Round 1: Brett (a friend of mine) with TES - 2-1
Round 2: Corbett Gray with ANT - 2-1
Round 3: Chad with ANT - 0-2
Round 4: Riley with Death and Taxes - 2-0
Round 5: Ricky with Merfolk - 2-1 (I had him Game 2, but I went all in to clock him, and he rips Echoing Truth on my Humility and attacks back for 20)
Round 6: Josh with TES - 1-2 (a very close game, I didn't draw the one extra piece of discard/Thalia to kill him that turn)
Round 7: Colin with RUG Delver (1-2) - Had to mull to 5 in Game 3 with Dryad Arbor as my only land, I get Wastelanded and destroyed.
Round 8: John with Esperblade (1-1-1)
Round 9: James (friend) with BUG Landstill - 2-0

-Matt

[Arsenal]

You went 3-1 versus Storm? That's pretty impressive.

[sdematt]

2-2. Game 1 against Josh he ETW on Turn 2 for 14 Goblins, but I put up blockers. My mana was off and I didn't get to use Ooze once to put me up to one and not die. Game 2 I crush him. Game 3 I land Gaddock Teeg and push with Goyf, but he Chain of Vapours his LED, sacs a land, and Chains my Gaddock Teeg then goes off for exactly 18 with Tendrils. I'm holding Golgari Charm with Sylvan on board, but I never see another piece of discard nor a Thalia.

I made a mistake on the previous post.

I feel like we're fairly even against Combo, but I'd say bad draws on my part caused me to lose against Josh. I would have been 3-1.

If I knew the matchups I was going to play against, I'd have played a Teeg main instead of an Ooze and probably played 2 slots of discard in the board.

Sorin was also VERY good against Esperblade, especially with Emblems. 3/1 Lifelink Vampires were great, as were 4/1 Thalias and 4/2 Dark Confidants.

Deed and Charm were great against Death and Taxes, but since I didn't play any matchup where I had to destroy enchantments or regenerate, Zealous Persecution would have been better (and may have given me the 2-0 against Esperblade, since I lost against his Lingering Souls army with Golgari Charm in hand, and I just had less Souls).

-Matt

[Star|Scream]

How do you go 2-2 against one deck?


quote:

Round 5: Ricky with Merfolk - 2-2 (I had him Game 2, but I went all in to clock him, and he rips Echoing Truth on my Humility and attacks back for 20)

[sdematt]

Mistypes, mistypes everywhere! Stupid using the internet on a phone.

I went 2-1 vs. Ricky. I actually faced him last time in Round 7. He didn't get his revenge (un)fortunately.

-Matt

[sdematt]

If I knew I was going to face that group of matchups, I would have run:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
15

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
23

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Swamp
23


3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, LOI
2 Humility
3 Nihil Spellbomb

I may try this version out and see how it goes. More nutkicks for the combo matchups while still retaining Souls. Also, Souls and Cabal is great, especially when you get to quad Cabal Therapy TES.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I actually like that list a lot, save maybe Hymn vs Thoughtseize. I played a tournament on Saturday with something similar to your Seattle list, except Lili instead of Souls, IoK instead of Therapy, and Teeg instead of Ooze. The 3 GSZ seemed a bit mediocre and I always found my self in a "Well, I guess I'll use it" mindset whenever I drew it - although having Teeg main to fetch out felt like a good safety net. I got to do a turn 1 GSZ for 0 at least. I ended up beating BW Clerics, Lands, draw into top 4, then beat Stoneforge Rock to get into the finals where we just drew for 1st.

However, I did a lot of testing against a UWr Miracles and got smashed game after game (no board). Replacing GSZ with Souls seems a good way to increase threat to Jace and keep resilience against Terminus. Thalia does not play well with Souls...do you use her only against Combo?

Oh, and not so sure about the Nihil Spellbomb in the board. Humility is interesting.

[nedleeds]

Chalice at 0 for Hivemind.

... sigh ...

[Claymore]

Hah, yeah guess that doesn't work.

[sdematt]

I actually like that list a lot, save maybe Hymn vs Thoughtseize. I played a tournament on Saturday with something similar to your Seattle list, except Lili instead of Souls, IoK instead of Therapy, and Teeg instead of Ooze. The 3 GSZ seemed a bit mediocre and I always found my self in a "Well, I guess I'll use it" mindset whenever I drew it - although having Teeg main to fetch out felt like a good safety net. I got to do a turn 1 GSZ for 0 at least. I ended up beating BW Clerics, Lands, draw into top 4, then beat Stoneforge Rock to get into the finals where we just drew for 1st.

The GSZ were stellar for me. Being able to fetch up Teeg was pretty essential, and just getting more Knights/Goyfs for the other "fair" matchups is pretty great.


However, I did a lot of testing against a UWr Miracles and got smashed game after game (no board). Replacing GSZ with Souls seems a good way to increase threat to Jace and keep resilience against Terminus. Thalia does not play well with Souls...do you use her only against Combo?

I was playing her against combo as well as Miracles. It slows them down moreso than us. They have to remove her on site, and even with Souls you're usually still okay. Remember that you have DRS to help mitigate Thalia's effects, so a Turn-3 Souls is still a thing. I kept 3/4 Souls in versus Combo, since you have so much to board out already and it was still good, even in that match.


Oh, and not so sure about the Nihil Spellbomb in the board. Humility is interesting.

Spellbomb was there because I wasn't going to run only 2 Surgicals. I wanted something so supplement my "one card at a time" gravehate already present in the main, namely Ooze and DRS. Spellbomb was great at clearing out TES' bin, as well as in RUG Delver against Mongoose. I actually really like the card, since I was only playing 2 slots of extra hate.

Humility was gravy in the Merfolk matchup, completely shutting him out of the game until his (lucky) topdeck of Echoing Truth (wtf?). Cad is actually bonkers against Jund as well, and any Show and Tell based deck. It's only really good if you're running the Souls plan, though.

-Matt

[feline]

You tourney reporting/writing for this one Matt? I am working on mine at the moment, though it takes me hours to write, will be posted within a couple days, or even tonight if I go full throttle, though currently only on round 3, and I've spent at least 5 hours on it, that does include a large intro though and looking some stuff up every match to confirm table #'s, opponents names, etc.

[sdematt]

I will later this week.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

hi guys, as you might remember i was on a tournament on this sunday and also this wednesday, and my list is probably known as well as we talked a lot about it, and boardingplans


on SUNDAY we played 5 rounds, and out of 17 players i ended up 8th
my matchups that day were quite intresting as there were a lot of different decks around,.... Goblins(with Thalia), Death & Taxes, Hypergenesis, Belcher, Reanimate, RUG, Jund, Vaporblade, Esperblade, Punishing Maverick, Junk(ME)

1st Round: Reanimate: Really i love playing against that deck, as it is allmost not possible to lose against it :D, i think the name guy playing it was Roman, and he was a really nice guy.
The matchup went more or less like 2x deathrite shaman for the win in game 1, and deathrite shaman + GSZ for deathrite shaman game 2 for the win, allthough he managed to get a Angel of Despair into play, killing my first land, and threatening Iona but he did not get his reanimation spell in time before i landed deathrite #2 from a GSZ.
1-0

2nd Round: Punishing Maverick: I had a bad starting hand game 1 and did not yet know what i played against, so i started with my one land for GSZ into arbor, which got fired, and my land got wasted,.... drew only a single land in over 5 turns.
Game 2 went to me with double goyf beats while removing opponents creatures. I was lucky that he did not get his white mana up
Game 3 was a mulligan to 5 which broke my neck, as he had the nuts, and multiple p.fires
1-1

3rd Round: Vaporblade: This was the coolest matchup i had to face this day, plus i never played this deck before.
sadly i do not remember much about this anymore because it was a very hard matchup to face.... i think game 1 went to me with to much power on the table thanks to goyf and knight. My opponent won game 2 due to a tiny miscalculation on my part, otherwise i would have stabilized on 1 life, and steamrolled him the turn after for around 18 damage with knights and goyfs
game 3 went to time, and we finished in a draw.... after the match i realized that this draw effectively got both of us out of prizerange :cry:
Sidenote: Maze of Ith is a allstar against any equipmentbased deck, its awesome
1-1-1

4th Round: Hypergenesis: This was the opponent i really did not want to face, probably being the worst matchup i got in the room.
This guy was really funny, laughing the whole time, but sadly he dropped out after i beat him.
game 1 he had to mulligan to 5, so the game was allmost decided, but 1 turn before he dies he drops a progenitus and a 7/5 that gives every creature he controlls haste, from a hypergenesis from shardless agent. the haster got sworded progenitus hit once but next turn abrupt decay on agent and lilianas -2 on progenitus wins me the game after all
game 2 went to him after a misdecision after a misdirection on my thoughtseize...... i kept the removal but should have kept deathrite shaman, because i did not draw any more lands
game 3 went to me again, allmost in the same fashion as game 1
sidenote: Tidehollow Sculler is awesome in every combomatchup i had to play till now, i love him
2-1-1

5th Round: RUG-Delver: A matchup i feel rather secure about, but as i was out of prize-range and had not yet played against it with my new list (no more hymns) i wanted to try something new with boarding
Game 1 went to me thanks to a dark confidant with liliana and a divining top, drawing removal all the time for everything he had
Game 2 i wanted to manascrew him with extirpates, which sadly failed, and he started beating me with delver, but killed me with a mongoose, and 3 topdecked submerges
Game 3 i tried to screw with his gameplan by removing important spells like brainstorm and lighting bolt with extirpate... this was way more efficient than i would have expected, ripping them from their manipulation is quite good, but a minor misplay in the end cost me the game
4 mana open, for goyf and abrupt decay, on his side goose and a goyf, and his hand was daze and submerge
i totally forgot about daze and played decay first,.... then i realized my mistake, as goyf would be countered and i dead 2 or 3 turns after

TOTAL of 2 Wins, 2 Losses, 1 Draw

it was a fun tournament overall and i realized some things about my list

but now the tiny tournament from yesterday

1st round MUD - Metalworker/Forgemaster (homebrew)
game 1 went to me with 2 knights and 1 goyf, which were to much for him
game 2 went to him due to a 2nd turn bloodmoon and i had only fetches in hand, and only fetches on top (knew about those because of divining top)
game 3 went to him again due to a chalice on 1, 2, and 3, plus a bloodmoon

2nd Round Esperblade
i had bad hands i both games we played and he crushed me.... in game 2 i should have won, but a double thoughtseize thanks to his snapcasters robbed me of my game, so 0-2

3rd Round Goblins (Rw) with Thalia
i still have problems against that matchup. game 1 was rather easy, sword his lackey, land a goyf and a liliana, and from there i won, after boarding i kept a bit of discard in the main, and started with a hand without removal but with discard and multiple goyfs.... of cource he starts with lackey, i discard his matron as it was his only threat off of lackey... sadly he topdecks ringleader, into another ringleader 2 incinerator and war marshal
game 3 was very close, but this time his double rishadan port give him the win, as he ports me all the time so i could not play my 2 deeds, 2 timely reinforements, and the zealous persecution came to late

conclusion:

Elspeth dissapointed me completely, as did kitchen finks, vindicate was not much of use either
Knight was sometimes awesome, some other times mediocre, but definitely very usefull as maze of ith was hilariously strong
punishing fires is extremely strong and kitchen finks are awefull against any deck playing it

the goblin player pointed out to me that i should probably be playing lingering souls, as was also my thought after seing that elspeth was highly dissapointing, and all the other players pointed out that sorin is so much stronger in a BWx deck than elspeth could ever be, specially for the emblems

Goyf, GSZ, Tidehollow Sculler, and Liliana were my best friends.... i won allmost every match i got to use 2-3 of them
specially liliana was awesome, and the strongest card against RUG and Hypergenesis..... i simply love her

future changes to my list:
i will take out elspeth, and 1-2 vindicates for lingering souls, as they can perform as a answer to planeswalker, and are usefull against aggrodecks.
a single jitte will find its way into my 75, and i was thinking of replazing golgari charm with persecution again, but i am sceptical if that might be the wrong move

IMO some form of recurring removal is one of the things this deck probably needs

anyway i had a lot of fun and i learned a lot about my list

[sdematt]

The important thing is that you learned something. Hooray!

-Matt

[sdematt]

Came 2nd in a 9-man with my stock list. Lost to OmniTell Turn 1 both times, won against Jund, Miracles, and Tin Fins.

-Matt

[Claymore]

How did the match against Tin Fins go? That's been more or less a boogey man for me...haven't been able to test it much, but loading it up in Cockatrice and I faced down a string of turn 1 losses.

[sdematt]

How did the match against Tin Fins go? That's been more or less a boogey man for me...haven't been able to test it much, but loading it up in Cockatrice and I faced down a string of turn 1 losses.

If they have it, they have it. You can't interact on Turn 0, so that's just the way it is. I kept hands with discard, and you always grab or name Entomb if you can. There's only 4 in the deck, and it's really the only way to get Griselbrand into the yard efficiently (yes they can Thoughtseize themselves, but you know what I mean).

Ideally you stall them out long enough so you can get Ooze online. That's how I won game 1. Cabal Therapy for Entomb, land Ooze, pray that I get to untap, and then start to swing for 2. They have no bounce mainboard.

Game 2 however is much harder, since they have answers. I played Rest in Peace in my board as a 3-of since I knew Manaless Dredge and TinFins were showing up. We both mulled to 5, and I kept a hand with Thalia (which is backbreaking against them). Rest in Peace murders Tin Fins, and is even better when backed by counterspells (or in our case, discard).

It's not an easy matchup by any stretch, but you do what you can.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Sounds fun. You give any credence to the theory of sideboarding to your worst matchup (e.g. Faerie Macabre / Surgical other narrow'ish cards)? Or do you subscribe to ... 'fuck it'?

[sdematt]

In a 9 man, I know I'm going to see it. In a larger tournament, I'll roll the fucking dice. I played 2 Nihil Spellbomb in the board at SCG since it overlapped in things I wanted to hit, like TES, RUG, etc. and had some value even in just cantripping.

If it were a larger tournament, I'd never board for the worst matchup unless that matchup was a large portion of the metagame, or I had empty sideboard slots that were doing nothing.

Nice to see you pop by the thread, Nedleeds. You should come by more often. :smile:

-Matt

[nedleeds]

In a 9 man, I know I'm going to see it. In a larger tournament, I'll roll the fucking dice. I played 2 Nihil Spellbomb in the board at SCG since it overlapped in things I wanted to hit, like TES, RUG, etc. and had some value even in just cantripping.

If it were a larger tournament, I'd never board for the worst matchup unless that matchup was a large portion of the metagame, or I had empty sideboard slots that were doing nothing.

Nice to see you pop by the thread, Nedleeds. You should come by more often. :smile:

-Matt

As much as I'd like to play a chalice deck ... I have to play something competitive @ BoM and I've playing B/G/x mid range decks since before Sol stopped using Durkwood Boars. There is insight and value buried in the development threads in between the 80% static of "What do u think of chalice 0 4 hivemind thx pmplz".

[Claymore]

Gotcha, thanks for the insight on the matchup and sideboard tech. I'm trying to test for SCG Nashville and the sideboard definitely seems to be the area I need the most work in.

[sdematt]

Gotcha, thanks for the insight on the matchup and sideboard tech. I'm trying to test for SCG Nashville and the sideboard definitely seems to be the area I need the most work in.

I think at this point we've hammered out good maindecks, so there's not much to worry about.

The sideboard I ran last night was:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Rest in Peace
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Sorin, LOI

Basically cut the Humilities and went +1 ZP +1 Gravehate. No one was on Sneak and I figured I could crush Jund without it (and I did, go go Lingering Souls).

I think in a Combo heavy meta 3 Thalia and 2-3 Gaddock Teeg is pretty essential. Ideally, I'd love to have 8 discard to go along with it (or Liliana), but it's just not possible in my meta/how I want to play.

Sorin was also great against Jund except when he drew Wasteland, Bolt, Decay and something else and killed him when I was at 5 counters. Boo.

-Matt

[syfilisx]

Played Rock today, it has been while and I guess I have never took it to sanctioned tournament before, always playing my UR Nivmagus while my teammate pilots Rock.

Played Sorin, Lord of Innistrad on side instead of Elspeth and all games I took it in and drew it, it was absolutely powerhouse. Making my goyfs bigger and making lingering souls a huge threat. We will see if I will take it out again. There has been too much storm around here lately, so UR has been better. Today I was able to dodge 1 storm player who came.
I played Rug Cascade, Bug Delver & Esper Stoneblade. We took ID with Esper player so we both got 20euros off from prerelease prices since nobody can surpass us in points and after that played funsie for glory & bragging rights. I took it 2-1.
Was good day, since I already won modern tournament before that, getting another free prerelease.

Zealous Persecution was pretty bad for all matchups today.

The List:

Maindeck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
2 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring

[Mr. Safety]

Zealous Persecution was pretty bad for all matchups today.

Maybe I'm crazy, but ZP seems to me to be one of those cards that are OBVIOUSLY a sideboard option. It can't finish games as well as Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary and it's application is narrow (Maverick, opposing Soul's decks, tribal.)

As for your maindeck, it seems like it is just SCREAMING for Stoneforge Mystic. You could go -1 Jitte, +1 Batterskull, -2 Zealous Persecution, +2 Stoneforge Mystic. Jitte is still there in the maindeck for small dorks (fetchable even) and ZP can come in for the matchups mentioned in the above line. That would be pretty close to what I'm personally playing, actually. :wink:

My only big problem with your list (besides maindeck ZP) is your lack of Thoughtseize. IoK can do some good work as supplemental disruption (I don't have 4 TS, only 3...) but it's pretty clear that getting to 4 TS is ideal before you even add ONE IoK.

My personal opinion is that Liliana is so far and above better than Hymn to Tourach that I don't play *any* Hymns, in either the main or side. Hymn is great early, sucky late. Liliana is just about awesome whenever. My philosophy, as you can probably gather, is that dead cards have no place in the maindeck. I want all of my cards live.

[syfilisx]

Everything you say is true and I fully agree.
Thoughseizes are in process of being acquired. Few other card availibility issues too.
Meta has lots of combo, maverick and D&T so I guess hymn and zealous are bit of that.

[Petree]

^ I actually thought your list was going some where besides the stated obvious like ZP main. But I just have a few questions....

Did you ever feel like 3 Liliana was too much or just right? I'm starting to see a lot of people playing +3 Liliana. The reason I ask is also because you mentioned how Sorin was powerful for you and I was thinking for my main to run a 2/2 of Sorin and Liliana. I'm still currently testing between Sorin or Elspeth.

[syfilisx]

Don't probably want Sorin against tempo decks, but might try it in main if meta was different. Liliana again is very good against those. It edicts, it fogs and another one comes around.

Me coming from Finland, I pretty much can know exact local meta sinne there are so few players

[Kich867]

Been getting a ton of practice against RUG and Esper. Esper feels 60/40 in their favor, Over the last 20 or so games he won more than I did, it really depends on who resolves and maintains a draw engine first, like if I can slam Sylvan and be undisrupted, I'm going to drown him in threats.

RUG is like, straight up almost 100-0 in our favor. I think over the course of the last 8 game hours against that deck I've only dropped a handful of games and they were literally all due to bad hand keeps or god-hands from them. Otherwise, it's just like, fetch basics, land goyf, and kill them.

[Arianrhod]

Your deck needs more #TeamSorin, Kich.

[Mr. Safety]

^ I actually thought your list was going some where besides the stated obvious like ZP main. But I just have a few questions....

Did you ever feel like 3 Liliana was too much or just right? I'm starting to see a lot of people playing +3 Liliana. The reason I ask is also because you mentioned how Sorin was powerful for you and I was thinking for my main to run a 2/2 of Sorin and Liliana. I'm still currently testing between Sorin or Elspeth.

I play 2 Liliana's main, 1 in the sideboard, and I'm lovin' it. I bring it in against control and combo, leave it out against aggro.

Current list (and I'm pretty well settled, and likely bringing it to my next event on May 5th.)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
1x Vindicate
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil


I love the way it is playing right now, the obvious hole being the missing Karakas. I wish I could squeeze in a third maindeck Sculler, but I can't see any way of doing it without cutting a Lingering Souls or an Inquisition of Kozilek (the rest of the deck is fairly non-negotiable for me.) I want 5 targeted discards (don't have the 4th Thoughtseize) and against some matchups the more copies of Lingering Souls I draw the better odds I have. I'm fairly well settled, the only thing that might change is adding in a Sculler to main, dropping a Souls for it (if I see a bunch of combo decks getting shuffled before the event.)

My feelings on Sorin haven't been great, but I do have one I could use. I just think that Lingering Souls is more efficient than either Elspeth or Sorin, and if I need a way to boost past opposing token decks or just make my tokens more badass I side in Zealous Persecution. ZP also has value against tribals, Thalia, and Mom, all of which I've been seeing CONSTANTLY since the 2 fella's did so well with Death and Taxes in the most recent GP (along with Merfolk and Goblins making themselves known again.)

[sdematt]

I play 2 Liliana's main, 1 in the sideboard, and I'm lovin' it. I bring it in against control and combo, leave it out against aggro.

Current list (and I'm pretty well settled, and likely bringing it to my next event on May 5th.)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
1x Vindicate
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil


I love the way it is playing right now, the obvious hole being the missing Karakas. I wish I could squeeze in a third maindeck Sculler, but I can't see any way of doing it without cutting a Lingering Souls or an Inquisition of Kozilek (the rest of the deck is fairly non-negotiable for me.) I want 5 targeted discards (don't have the 4th Thoughtseize) and against some matchups the more copies of Lingering Souls I draw the better odds I have. I'm fairly well settled, the only thing that might change is adding in a Sculler to main, dropping a Souls for it (if I see a bunch of combo decks getting shuffled before the event.)

My feelings on Sorin haven't been great, but I do have one I could use. I just think that Lingering Souls is more efficient than either Elspeth or Sorin, and if I need a way to boost past opposing token decks or just make my tokens more badass I side in Zealous Persecution. ZP also has value against tribals, Thalia, and Mom, all of which I've been seeing CONSTANTLY since the 2 fella's did so well with Death and Taxes in the most recent GP (along with Merfolk and Goblins making themselves known again.)

Blowing out DnT with Golgari Charm/ZP is very fun.

I wouldn't say RUG Delver is 100% in our favour, but I always just have bad luck against that deck.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Blowing out DnT with Golgari Charm/ZP is very fun.

I wouldn't say RUG Delver is 100% in our favour, but I always just have bad luck against that deck.

-Matt

When they're on, they're on. However, they are incredibly threat light, so your removal spells, particularly AD, will be devastating. I've never had difficulties whomping rug delver.

[Petree]

So... After some testing I would say that adding Elspeth or Sorin to the 75 is just a "I win more card"??? It just feels like when I was running Sigarda in the deck. I believe im on the 3 liliana plan, i used to think she was a bit too slow. I'm starting to feel like Zealous Persecution might also be good a sideboard card now because it helps us trump tribal decks, and opposing lingering souls. Hrm.... I tried out 2 chokes in the side and against esper it was very very good because it just made my opponent so worried about his mana base. Against Team America/ Bug.... it was super house, my opponents jaw dropped because they only run 4 decays and some might run a one of pulse, but it definitely slowed the shiet out of his tempo... But that might be the card i cut for the ZP's because i'm running Chains of Mephistopheles so i might not need the chokes. Still testing.... so many options and decisions....

[sdematt]

The issue is this.

You need cards (in a large tournament, yet defined meta) to combat:

Sneak and Show / Omni
Dredge/Reanimator/Tin Fins
TES/ANT
Esperblade/Miracle Control/Helm Control
BUG/RUG Tempo
Elves/Goblins/Death and Taxes/Merfolk
Maverick/Dark Maverick

(let me know if I'm missing something)

I mean, ideally we already do well against a subset of the meta, and then board accordingly for the weaker matchups, which are fast combo and hard control, the peripheries of the spectrum of decks.

Sorin is very good against Jund and blue based control, and can come in against a lot of "fair" matchups to make them better (like Merfolk, etc.). Ideally, in Legacy at this very moment, I want a solid gameplan against:

Esperblade + variants, Combo decks in general, and aggro strategies.

Even though we're already *decent* against Jund (Punishing Jund we're worse, but still fine, against, but regular Jund is a joke), I still want something against them (since they bring in stuff against us).

My sideboard of:

2 Pernicious Deed
3 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg (with 3 GSZ maindeck)
2 Humility
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Sorin, LOI
2 Golgari Charm

covers most of the matchups fairly well. Humility is also backbreaking against Jund, but not required. Out Souling them is pretty key. Jund just loses to that card so hard. The question is, does Choke do better than Sorin in the Miracles and Esperblade matchups? But does it do as well in the other matchups Sorin is used in? Recall we're on the Lingering Souls plan, so making all your 1/1's into 2/1's now suddenly has a ton more going for it. It also has play against decks packing Sulfure Elemental/Dread/Plague since the tokens created are different.

Choke can be played around, as well as removed easier, than Sorin in the Esperblade matchup. Esperblade can fetch basics and get around most of the stuff you're talking about. However, with the mix of Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and Choke, I think at that point putting anything on the table is sealing the deal in that matchup. However, now with Jund, what am I doing? I'm bringing out my 5 slots of discard now for 2 Golgari Charms, 2 Humility, and 1 Pernicious Deed? I guess that seems okay still. The Charms combat E. Plagues, in all honesty. You have to.

I think this will require testing, but will likely come down to personal preference.

-Matt

[sdematt]

So I tested out a bunch of games versus Esper and Jund (what I considered the more control/midrange matchups we'd face) and compared GSZ to Liliana in each case, and GSZ won me way more games by being able to go get Ooze, Knight, Goyf, Gaddock Teeg out of the board, etc. I think Liliana is 100% better in the unfair matchups and probably against Tempo (it's a bigger threat and harder to remove if you land it), but overall, the GSZ was still VERY strong.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, as for Choke vs. Sorin, Sorin is much more proactive and actually works at closing the game out. Choke was good against Esperblade, but so was Sorin. They can also play around Choke, and Miracles is even better at playing around it, since they only need UU to cast Jace or Counterbalance, and the rest can be done off white mana or Glacial fortress/ Mystic Gate/Karakas.

Choke is probably still fine, but Sorin's just dandy.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I agree, Choke was not all that stellar for me when I played it. Most blue decks are simply designed to have resilience against it. Evev Tsunami isn't a game winner especially if they know its coming.

I've been getting close to cutting Liliana as well since her performance hasn't really been all that stellar. However, I have trouble with the part where she can be used to ultimate and kill Jace and her Edict can steal games against flying spaghetti monsters on Nimble Mongoose/Geist.

I don't really see her as a combo killer... Maybe more of a nail in the coffin if you get her to turn 4 or 5, but prior to that she's just a single Raven's Crime and they discard a useless land and combo off the next turn. (Her combo strength is more so storm based matchups that don't use Griselbrand)

She largely seems to compete with GSZ and Souls, and of the three we can play 2 sets of 3. For use in overall matchups, GSZ in my mind gets the top spot for strong anti combo capacity (fetch Teeg, DRS/Ooze for Fins/Reanimator) and grabbing fat beats in the fair matchups (your own testing). Souls is great in fair matchups especially with Sorin from the board, but is just dogshit in unfair matchups.

Liliana seems to be an even card, where she is okay in all matchups but often seems to lack applicability to the meta. Forcing Miracles into the top of the deck is exactly where they want to play and she can't compete against a tribal swarm except as a finisher. Her best matchups seem to be against SnT variants for her Edict (where we have Knight already), possibly Maverick if you can avoid a swarm, and RUG/BUG Tempo...matchups that we aren't that bad against, right?

Where does Souls win out over Liliana? Miracles (taking down Jace) and Jund? Enhancing the targeted discard with cabal therapy for combo effectiveness?

[sdematt]

Souls is great against:

1) Other Souls
2) Liliana (both discard and just attacking her)
3) Jace and other Planeswalkers
4) Jund for blocking guys or poking in
5) Great with Cabal THerapy (I only board out one of four against Combo)
6) Good in the long grindy games

With this meta, the only games where it sucks are straight combo, but even then I use them to flashback Cabal Therapies, so I don't know what to think. But, it's been DAMNED good.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Bringing my above list to a local event on 5/5. Any last minute suggestions? It's a local meta-game, but it does have Show and Tell and RUG Delver for top tier decks, occasionally Miracles and Goblins, too. I feel pretty good with my setup, and I hope to do well. I'll be sure to drop in a report after the event.

[sdematt]

Humility in the board for Goblins/Merfolk/Show and Tell; Golgari Charm to fend off the Gobbos.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I'm using Zealous Persecution for the tribals because I am using Lingering Souls maindeck. I am still using the 'old' tech of Pernicious Deed, too.

Humility is an interesting option for Show and Tell...I'll have to see if I can get 1-2 for Saturday. Thanks!

[Kpicco]

As someone who has issues sticking with a deck I finally found one that I can happily play non-stop and still not be bored, and it is Junk. (Thank you Dwayne Johnson.)

Now my only issue is I'm having trouble sticking with a single deck-list within the Junk archetype.

I've brewed three lists that I enjoy equally (and they seem pretty basic in their own rights) but I'm not sure what most would consider the best, so I was hoping for some opinions.


(These cards I'm keeping the same unless someone can give me a compelling argument for change.)

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flast
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Different Lists:

Goyf/Green Sun Plan:
+1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Dryad Arbor
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Scavenging Ooze

+3 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Green Sun's Zenith

Goyf/Knight Plan:
+3 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Scavenging Ooze

+3 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Green Sun's Zenith

Goyf/Stoneforge Plan:
+3 Stonefroge Mystic

+3 Lingering Souls
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Batterskull

Hope I made this easy to read and this post isn't too redundant.
Opinions appreciated.

[Vandalize]

It's funny the way people build this deck in various ways. Pretty much like Control/Aggro division in the BUG thread.

Well, my list is pretty rough, but I like its aggro.

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas

Creatures [18]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Others [19]
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard [15]
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Tsunami
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Perinicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Krosan Grip/Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate

Tsunami was awful at first, but then I started to see its potential. You need to be sneaky to resolve it, but it's a much bigger blowout than Choke (and they can't play arround it). Usually, I try to resolve a bomb, like a Knight or a Liliana to bait the FoW, and follow up with Tsunami next turn. Or just wait for them to tap out for Jace, or something like that. It's a 3G solution that pretty much wins the game in the spot.

Hymn is also great, but not maindeck material imho.

[Claymore]

Why waste sideboard slots on Maze and Bog? The deck can handle them as lands 22 and 23.

[AggroSteve]

Maze of Ith definitely belongs in MD in my opinion, bojuka bog is sideboard material, but definitely a metacall i think

@ vandalize: i find it quite intresting that u use tsunami in your sideboard, and i suppose it is for the miracles and stoneblade matchups, i maybe have a even better suggestion here.
what about cataclysm, it would even handle a resolved jace, and leave the opponent with only a single land, it hurts us as well, but would be a complete blowout on the blue controll-decks

[Mr. Safety]

Back from the Local event, it was only a 7-man tourney. Kind of disappointing, it usually has 12+. I ended up going 2-0-1 (4-2-1 for games.) My draw went to time against a B/g Loam/Pox deck. We both pulled out a game and then we petered out the 5 extra turns without accomplishing much. I played against a U/G casual deck (Slippery Bogle, Trygon Predator, Shorecrasher Mimic, Favor of the Overbeing, some good equips like Jitte) a R/b Goblins deck (solid deck, no casual factor at all) and then the Loam Pox deck (just Smallpox, no Pox at all, and it was playing Mox Diamonds and crap-ton of discard. It was a Deathrite/Liliana war.) Not much to share, I did my thing with discard, removal, drew extra cards, and Lingering Souls was freaking *outstanding* all day. It won me the matchup against the Goblins deck almost single handed. I finished game 3 with 8 tokens on the table.

Not much to share...only saw ONE Goyf and ONE Top the whole day, which was disappointing, to say the least.

EDIT: I took 2nd place BTW...the Loam Pox player had a strictly better record.

[sdematt]

Ah, better breakers happen. Not much to worry about, but nice finish!

Lingering Souls is sooo good. So good.

-Matt

[Chatto]

(...) and then the Loam Pox deck (just Smallpox, no Pox at all, and it was playing Mox Diamonds and crap-ton of discard. It was a Deathrite/Liliana war.)

(...)

EDIT: I took 2nd place BTW...the Loam Pox player had a strictly better record.


Just being curious: Loam Pox with Deathrite Shaman in the main?

Anyway, congrats on your result!

[Kich867]

I joined #TeamSorin, we'll see what happens. Not sure what I'm dropping out of my board at the moment..

[sdematt]

What's your current board? Maybe we can help make cuts.

-Matt

[Claymore]

For my tutor board it seems to make more sense to run Canonist over Thalia. Does Thalia have more widespread effectiveness to warrant the spots? I was thinking vs Miracles and Esper but I don't know if she is really all that effective in our build.

[Mr. Safety]

Just being curious: Loam Pox with Deathrite Shaman in the main?

Anyway, congrats on your result!

Yes, he was playing 3 Deathrites main. Seemed good to me. I suppose it could really have been B/g board control (maindeck Shamans/Decays) but he was also playing targeted discard like Thoughtseize, Mox Diamond, and Raven's Crime. Seemed a little excessive given 3 Liliana's and 4 Hymns in his deck. I don't mind...it helped me get there because he didn't have threats in the game I won.

[Mr. Safety]

Ah, better breakers happen. Not much to worry about, but nice finish!

Lingering Souls is sooo good. So good.

-Matt

Yes, I am debating dropping the 2 Scullers do I can get the 4th Souls and another Top into the main. Seems really good.

I have also dropped Choke from my sideboard...I found that in situations where I could be playing Choke I'd rather just be doubling up on cheap disruption and Wasteland than worrying about a hoser. Wasteland is good against RUG and I can always board in my Life from the Loam while using Shaman for extra mana. Choke just wasn't good.

The 2x Choke has become 2 open slots for now. Any ideas? I have Sorin, Garruk Relentless, Pithing Needle, Scullers, a 4th Surgical Extraction, Humility, Oblivion Ring, and additional Knights for ideas for now. The Knights would be for the matchups to pair with Wasteland/Loam.

On a related note, it literally *sucks ass* when Horizon Canopy is in my opening hand. I took around 4-5 damage in three games because I needed my fetches to fix my other colors (I also was fetching basics against the Goblins/Pox decks.) I am thinking it's time to drop it from my list, I draw it too often for my liking. I'm thinking it should be Karakas, but I am having trouble trading for one. I don't want another colorless land like Volrath's Stronghold or Maze of Ith, the color fixing is just too important to me.

So add to the 2 sideboard slots 'what do I put in for land #22?' as my two questions of the day.

[Kich867]

What's your current board? Maybe we can help make cuts.

-Matt

I'll likely be moving over to a sideboard similar to yours.

Right now I think it's...

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tower of the Magistrate

[AggroSteve]

i have allready seen 4 possible cuts :P

1. thoughtseize: i think a 4-off should be MD
2. tower of magistrate: only usefull against equipment-decks which should allready be handled by maze of ith
3. maelstrom pulse: i think there are better options and i do not think this one is necessary if not played MD
4. bojuka bog: is probably a metacall but is not really needed when we have extractions/extirpate + shaman MD

this is all on assuming your maindeck looks like most of ours with either knight + GSZ + souls, or stoneforgepackage + souls

[Claymore]

I've cut Liliana from the deck in place of Lingering Souls, which seems pretty good in testing. I'm not running Cabal Therapy yet, since I'm not that confident running it in games 2/3 vs Combo after I've cut out the Souls. Maybe a 2/2/2 TS/IoK/Therapy split since I can still use the Therapy with Dryad Arbor and otherwise I don't want to kill any of my creatures outside of Souls tokens so I can't utilize the full x4 Therapy spread.

Here's my current board:


2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad


Still trying to determine whether or not Chains vs Sylvan is worth it when Chains hurts Griselbrand and Jace a ton, but I like it at the 2 spot for a hate card. Might go to a 2/1 Sylvan/Sensei's Top split in order to compensate, as well as get the occasional "Tutor, tap Top to draw my spell" deal.

Sorin's lifelink tokens are surprisingly relevant.

[Kich867]

i have allready seen 4 possible cuts :P

1. thoughtseize: i think a 4-off should be MD
2. tower of magistrate: only usefull against equipment-decks which should allready be handled by maze of ith
3. maelstrom pulse: i think there are better options and i do not think this one is necessary if not played MD
4. bojuka bog: is probably a metacall but is not really needed when we have extractions/extirpate + shaman MD

this is all on assuming your maindeck looks like most of ours with either knight + GSZ + souls, or stoneforgepackage + souls

My maindeck looks a lot like sdematt's, though I cut the MD maelstrom pulse and 1 sylvan library for 2x liliana's. I'm not sure how I feel about the changes yet, liliana is a complete, destructive house against a lot of decks, but I feel the decks she's great against, we're already pretty good against..

[sdematt]

For my tutor board it seems to make more sense to run Canonist over Thalia. Does Thalia have more widespread effectiveness to warrant the spots? I was thinking vs Miracles and Esper but I don't know if she is really all that effective in our build.

Thalia's darn great against Esper. Keeping them off Jace/Verdict until turn 5 is great.

@ Safety

Don't play Horizon Canopy. The card is garbage. Just play more Fetches.

@ Kich


2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tower of the Magistrate

Is Tower REALLY worth it against Esper? Like, I get the card is good at what it does, don't get me wrong. However, you only get one activation per turn (and if they're in the late game, they can re-equip to another creature) AND it means you need to keep KotR in for this matchup. Usually against Esper, I'm bringing in:

+2 Sorin
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 Thalia
-3 KotR
-3 Hand disruption
-1 Maze of Ith

(also possible to bring in Golgari charms to nuke possible Rest in Peaces or regenerate after sweepers, or nuke tokens)

Because late game, hand disruption is balls and KotR is usually a 3-mana derdle against a deck bringing in Rest in Peace (sometimes) and more removal. He's a beatstick that gets chumped by tokens. With Knight going out, Maze isn't great either. Sorin makes your Souls a much bigger threat, Thalia slows down their backbreaking spells (or even slowing down Snapcaster tricks), and Gaddock Teeg turns off their biggest threats. Keeping in your removal prevents them from connecting with Equipment (hopefully).

Also, I feel with only 2 slots of graveyard hate (true dedicated hate, not DRS/Ooze), I'd opt to choose other options over Surgical Extraction. I've been finding in a metagame with actual Dredge/Tin Fins, you want a real card like Rest in Peace (hear me out for a second) or Nihil Spellbomb.

Why? DRS/Ooze take out one card at a time, and I feel like you want a piece that nukes the graveyard as a piece of hate to tie you over until you can get a DRS or Ooze online. Essentially, you kick them in the nuts so you have enough time to grab a frying pan and finish them off.

Rest in Peace has been VERY good at what it does. Now, the card neuters us to high heaven, I'll grant you that. However, think about the matchups where you actively want it: (Manaless) Dredge, Tin Fins, and possibly Storm if you had nothing better. What cards are you bringing out in all of those matchups? Usually Knight (too slow, not enough utility) and derdly removal (creatureless decks). Rest in Peace blows those decks out of the water, and is backed by creatures like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg that don't care about the graveyard for P/T. Sure, Surgical does help on Turn 0, but against a deck like Tin Fins, they take it before it matters anyway.

I'd suggest a correction to:

2x Nihil Spellbomb/Rest in Peace (if you want REAL grave hate)
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

@ Claymore


I've cut Liliana from the deck in place of Lingering Souls, which seems pretty good in testing. I'm not running Cabal Therapy yet, since I'm not that confident running it in games 2/3 vs Combo after I've cut out the Souls. Maybe a 2/2/2 TS/IoK/Therapy split since I can still use the Therapy with Dryad Arbor and otherwise I don't want to kill any of my creatures outside of Souls tokens so I can't utilize the full x4 Therapy spread.

You should keep Cabal Therapy in for Games 2 and 3 versus combo and should not remove Souls. You have worse cards to remove, such as Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, etc. Being able to nut them with multiple Cabal Therapies wins games. Your 2/2/2 plan seems fine.


Here's my current board:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

E. tutor board, I likes. Since you're running the tutor board (are you running GSZ?), Cannonist is better than Thalia here, I'd think. I think the Surgicals should be stuff you can search with Tutor since it's just extra value for you (and little to no downside except for the Surgical vs. Other comparison).


Still trying to determine whether or not Chains vs Sylvan is worth it when Chains hurts Griselbrand and Jace a ton, but I like it at the 2 spot for a hate card. Might go to a 2/1 Sylvan/Sensei's Top split in order to compensate, as well as get the occasional "Tutor, tap Top to draw my spell" deal.

I think the 2/1 split is fine, especially if you're running Chains and E. tutor. Chains makes your Sylvans into painful Careful Studies, but destroys them moreso than you. If you're getting Sylvan and chains online, you're already winning.


Sorin's lifelink tokens are surprisingly relevant.

Agreed, especially when you've got an Emblem already. 1-2 life at a time is a real thing, especially in the grindy matchups where Sorin is great.

@ Kich


My maindeck looks a lot like sdematt's, though I cut the MD maelstrom pulse and 1 sylvan library for 2x liliana's. I'm not sure how I feel about the changes yet, liliana is a complete, destructive house against a lot of decks, but I feel the decks she's great against, we're already pretty good against..

Exactly my findings. Where she's good, we're already fine, and where we want her, like a blue based control deck like Esperblade, they have Souls (which can be awkward). i feel like there's better options to shore up the matchups we care about more. I tested GSZ versus Liliana last week as a test, and even though GSZ is still more midrange, the value in getting the value Teeg/Ooze or additional copy of creature X was usually WAY better than a Liliana.


-Matt

[AggroSteve]

My maindeck looks a lot like sdematt's, though I cut the MD maelstrom pulse and 1 sylvan library for 2x liliana's. I'm not sure how I feel about the changes yet, liliana is a complete, destructive house against a lot of decks, but I feel the decks she's great against, we're already pretty good against..

lol, so your list looks actually allmost exactly like mine (divining top over library in my list may be the only difference) and a singleton jitte MD over Pulse, as pulse was mostly used to kill tokens, and jitte can do that as well as most tokens are 1/1

i for my part would never play the deck without liliana anymore, she is awesome, i would so much love to fit a 3rd in, but there is just no place


here is my board for reference and maindeck composition (outside of the "core")

3 Knight
2 GSZ
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Souls
1 Jitte
2 Divining tops
2 cabal therapys

i would say the rest is the same in all non hymn builds
i am still testing souls as i just recently switched to them

my board

2 timely reinforcements (to mitigate the damage from shocklands against red decks + gobbos and RUG)
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler (awesome, but would serve probably the same role as Thalia and i may have to try her as well, as it seems she helps way more in the esper matchup in which i still struggle a lot)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm / Zealous Persecution still not completely sure what i should use.... charm helps in the show and tell matchup with killing leylines, persecution is better against esper, killing their tokens an pumping ours
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

depending on the meta, i thought of a second Jitte in the board instead of the 3rd Sculler, but sculler is really awesome

[Esper3k]

Regarding Tower of the Magistrate: If you just wait until combat to unequip their guys, then you don't really have to worry about them reequipping them since you've already pretty much neutered the effectiveness of their equipment plus you're now costing them more mana per turn than you're spending. And of course, the main reason to play Tower is because it absolutely rapes those Batterskull germs. That being said, yes playing Tower does mean you're going to have to keep your Knights in.

[Kich867]

I'll be switching my list back to pulse and another library, I need a good maindeck answer to lingering souls and jace. I like your board plan, both in construction and swapping. Thanks matt, right now im putting my Rock on hold in an attempt to make alchemists refuge a card =D.

[Petree]

I'm not going argue against GSZ bc I know how powerful it can be and basically having an extra copy of each threat can really put the pressure on but I feel like the card is slight to slow right now in the meta. I mean for me that is. I just felt like maybe my input could be some help. My creature board is basically the same as matt's except no ooze. GSZ was very powerful in junk because it allowed tutoring for creature answers, but with a build that has no main deck answers I question why I should even run gsz. It feels weird without it honestly and some days i feel like i would want it but right now i just feel like having other utilities over it.

As for Sorin, I do like him much better over elspeth even though she's still a b**ch to deal with than sorin is. I do recommend playing at least one, life gain goes the distance.

@ Kich867

Bro, totally understand. I did the same thing. Im actually playing 2 Tops and a pulse. I switch the night before SCG Milwaukee for the +1 Pulse and it went to work. I pulse so much crap that I do like at least one of in my main. The reason for 2 tops over Sylvan Library is because I want to have the ability to always peek at my top three and also use wte card on top of my deck as a secret weapon.

Hmm... right now for my 22 or some ppls 23 land. I'm trying Nantuko Monastery. It might tap for colorless but it's a win against board wipes, planeswalkers, destroys batterskull and doesnt allow jitte counters. Many things.... Im only trying it, also its because my mana base can support it.

[Kich867]

I'm not going argue against GSZ bc I know how powerful it can be and basically having an extra copy of each threat can really put the pressure on but I feel like the card is slight to slow right now in the meta. I mean for me that is. I just felt like maybe my input could be some help. My creature board is basically the same as matt's except no ooze. GSZ was very powerful in junk because it allowed tutoring for creature answers, but with a build that has no main deck answers I question why I should even run gsz. It feels weird without it honestly and some days i feel like i would want it but right now i just feel like having other utilities over it.

As for Sorin, I do like him much better over elspeth even though she's still a b**ch to deal with than sorin is. I do recommend playing at least one, life gain goes the distance.

@ Kich867

Bro, totally understand. I did the same thing. Im actually playing 2 Tops and a pulse. I switch the night before SCG Milwaukee for the +1 Pulse and it went to work. I pulse so much crap that I do like at least one of in my main. The reason for 2 tops over Sylvan Library is because I want to have the ability to always peek at my top three and also use wte card on top of my deck as a secret weapon.

Hmm... right now for my 22 or some ppls 23 land. I'm trying Nantuko Monastery. It might tap for colorless but it's a win against board wipes, planeswalkers, destroys batterskull and doesnt allow jitte counters. Many things.... Im only trying it, also its because my mana base can support it.

I mean, shit, you hand me a deck with Monastery in it and I like that deck already. I hadn't though of trying it out in the Rock.

[sdematt]

I had played it infinite ago BEFORE Karakas was a card in Legacy (so I guess prior to 2009?), and it was decent at the time.

-Matt

[Petree]

Yeah haha I don't know how good it's really going to be. So far though it seems reasonable. I just realized with Sorin it'll be a 5 plus first striker lol.... And I'd probably choose it over tower of magistrate just because Magistrate is only good against equipment decks whereas Nantuko can be a closer in games.

As for the talk about graveyard hate I've been just running 3 extirpate in my side before I was playing 3 farie macabre in the side. I mean theres a lot of things that could be play, when I faced against Jund, I thought what he brought in was pretty decent, he brought in Relic of Progenitus against me. Every time I DRS target a card in his GY, He just relic targeting himself. Which shut off DRS completely. And if he needed to, he'll exile both graveyards. I thought that was pretty good. Rest in Peace doesn't seem bad... I was thinking though... has anyone tried Grafdigger's Cage in The Rock??? I feel like maybe thats a good card for us, It still allows for DRS. It'll only let us use Lingering Souls once. It shuts off opposing Esper lingering souls and snapcaster. Also doesn't allow past in flames. If your playing GSZ it might hurt you. Completely ruins TinFins. It still allows our goyfs and knights to be superior.

[ubernostrum]

So it appears that I'll have a break from judging duties and actually get to jam some Legacy at SCG Nashville. I've actually been trending toward a more controlling and less-toolbox-y build for a while, and this is the current list I'm on:



4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Aside from needing to fine-tune the mana a bit more (was running 3x Catacomb, 1 Windswept Heath, plus a Savannah instead of one of the Bayous, but realized that I pretty much always want to fetch for black), I'm pretty happy with it even if it is a departure from the usual Knight- and Goyf-heavy lists, which I'm coming to suspect just aren't as strong anymore.

About the only thing I find I really want is either a fourth Deathrite or a third Liliana, but the only room I can find is cutting Loam from the main (Sorin is just so good with 3x Souls that he's going to stick around, even though he gets boarded out in a fair number of matchups). Sideboard is also a little bit up in the air, aside from Thalia and Blind Obedience. I've been fiddling with Golgari Charm and finding it to be pretty high-variance even given that it's a sideboard card.

[Mr. Safety]

I had played it infinite ago BEFORE Karakas was a card in Legacy (so I guess prior to 2009?), and it was decent at the time.

-Matt

Considering that Horizon Canopy is "shit", would you recommend Monastery as a replacement? I have been avoiding it (and Volrath's Stronghold) because 5 colorless lands seems rough. As of right now I replaced the Canopy with a fetch, which seems like the right call. I already play Treetop Village (like a bawss) which still lets me play my green spells so I think I'll stick with the fetch for now; but I'm interested in the views on Monastery vs. Treetop vs. other utility lands.

Once I get Karakas, that goes in, but before then I need to fill that slot. Maze of Ith? My focus on Knights is really low, basically just 2 slots (and that's because I don't think there is anything better ATM)

[sdematt]

If you're only running 2 Knights, it might be worth just putting in a mana-producing land, since another specialty land is going to throw off your mana base even more.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i picked up an interesting thought from the maverick thread that could be used in the rock as well if you use lingering souls

geas cradle + lingering souls into GSZ for sigarda, host of herons

what do u guys think, is it possible go go that route?

[sdematt]

Cradle is definitely a possible option at replacing, say, Maze of Ith or something (or Treetop/Monastery, etc.).

We should try it out.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

If you're only running 2 Knights, it might be worth just putting in a mana-producing land, since another specialty land is going to throw off your mana base even more.

-Matt

How do you feel about Cabal Pit or Stirring Wildwood?

[.Ix]

Cradle is definitely a possible option at replacing, say, Maze of Ith or something (or Treetop/Monastery, etc.).

We should try it out.

-Matt

I did. It's obviously much better in equipment builds, but it's not really that much more useful than Maze in builds without equipment. It was usually win more when I found it, though, even in SFM builds.

[razvan]

Maybe I missed it. Why exactly is Sorin better than Elspeth? I cannot find the justification, and I am tempted to agree given that the Emblem can be huge with Lingering Souls.

[sdematt]

Maybe I missed it. Why exactly is Sorin better than Elspeth? I cannot find the justification, and I am tempted to agree given that the Emblem can be huge with Lingering Souls.

In no particular order:

1) Sorin's easier to cast.

2) Creates black tokens with lifelink, instead of more White tokens which die to Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental.

3) Flying and +3/+3 is good, but is chumped by opposing Souls possibly. +1/+0 to everyone is more damage that will likely get through, especially when we're running Souls.

4) Emblem wins Goyf/Deathrite combat wars

5) Ultimate is an answer to Jace


-Matt

[Claymore]

Played in the Legacy Challenge at SCG Charlotte yesterday. Went 2-1-1 with a GSZ/Lingering Souls build, with wins against American Geist (2-0) and UW Countertop (2-1)*, lost against DnT (1-2) and drew against Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1).

*He just scooped game 3 when we were playing for a pack and we were the last officiated match in the hall...but I had a convincing board state at least!

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus (Supposed to be Nihil Spellbomb but I couldn't find any)
SB: 1 Humility

I won every game 1, but I think my sideboard plans are wrong. I generally would side out discard and removal plus maybe Teeg/Maze for bullets and Sorins (roughly 6 in all). Golgari Charm allowed me to regenerate my field against Supreme Verdict, which was nice, while also serving double duty to be able to kill RiP and Counterbalance.

I brought Sorin in for every match and he seemed alright, but I think I made a bad decision in bringing him in against DnT since the tokens did not have enough impact and often just delayed the inevitable. The only game he explicitly won for me was against Countertop where he was able to buff my Souls tokens to fly over a Mirran Crusader. Speaking of Crusader, Sorin's black vampires are no good against him.

I did not include Deed, and thus lost against DnT when I couldn't answer his swarms plus equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, and Feast/Famine all saw the field). Never saw Charms here. Not sure where to put the Deed though, maybe replace Jitte or Chains?

Countertop, DnT, and Esper all came down to Batterskulls, more or less. I'm thinking about including Tower of the Magistrate to fetch with Knight since a lot of the meta relies on Batterskull to win, likely as land #24 (including Maze) and card #61, removing GSZ #3.

Never boarded in Chains, although probably should have against Miracles and Countertop to negate their draw effects. Humility was similarly never played nor seemed like a good idea, except maybe against Geist. Too much equipment meant it always was a bad idea.

[Petree]

Played in the Legacy Challenge at SCG Charlotte yesterday. Went 2-1-1 with a GSZ/Lingering Souls build, with wins against American Geist (2-0) and UW Countertop (2-1)*, lost against DnT (1-2) and drew against Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1).

*He just scooped game 3 when we were playing for a pack and we were the last officiated match in the hall...but I had a convincing board state at least!

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus (Supposed to be Nihil Spellbomb but I couldn't find any)
SB: 1 Humility

I won every game 1, but I think my sideboard plans are wrong. I generally would side out discard and removal plus maybe Teeg/Maze for bullets and Sorins (roughly 6 in all). Golgari Charm allowed me to regenerate my field against Supreme Verdict, which was nice, while also serving double duty to be able to kill RiP and Counterbalance.

I brought Sorin in for every match and he seemed alright, but I think I made a bad decision in bringing him in against DnT since the tokens did not have enough impact and often just delayed the inevitable. The only game he explicitly won for me was against Countertop where he was able to buff my Souls tokens to fly over a Mirran Crusader. Speaking of Crusader, Sorin's black vampires are no good against him.

I did not include Deed, and thus lost against DnT when I couldn't answer his swarms plus equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, and Feast/Famine all saw the field). Never saw Charms here. Not sure where to put the Deed though, maybe replace Jitte or Chains?

Countertop, DnT, and Esper all came down to Batterskulls, more or less. I'm thinking about including Tower of the Magistrate to fetch with Knight since a lot of the meta relies on Batterskull to win, likely as land #24 (including Maze) and card #61, removing GSZ #3.

Never boarded in Chains, although probably should have against Miracles and Countertop to negate their draw effects. Humility was similarly never played nor seemed like a good idea, except maybe against Geist. Too much equipment meant it always was a bad idea.


Hmmm..... interesting report i must say. I've been kind of experiencing the same thing. I just feel the unnecessariness for Sorin Lord of Innistrad, I almost feel like it's a win more card. Yes, there can be arguments for the lifelinking vampires and ultimate ability and so on so on..... But does really just give just the win or gives us a better edge on the grindy matches? I feel like there's better things we can be doing to make ourselves more favorable in grindy match-ups or to literally just gain the advantage. We've already figured out one way from Matt, lingering souls. I want to say but not be sure about it, I feel like there's been some DnT creeping up in everybody's meta. I only usually bring in chains against blue draw decks and combo decks. Humility I don't personally think is necessary against many decks, SnT forsure. I think that tower of magistrate is ideal but that means you also have to up your number of knights bc suddenly she has become a tutoring ability for you. And maybe a few gsz bc you will need her available to you throughout your games.

The thing about the rock is which style you want to play, so you have the right synergy. I destructive tempo deck? a control version that has lots of mechanics? or a versatile version that is strong against the meta but weak against border line decks? Once we all get an idea of that I believe that we can make the right changes. If anyone wants to try or get an idea of what i'm running I'll post... but i will make changes by tomorrow though lol


Sideboard:

3 Thalia
3 Extirpate
2 chains of mephistopheles
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charms
3 Humility

Thalia's taxing ability is powerful against combo decks and many other decks.
Extirpate is just uncounterable.
Chains.... too good against bug decks, combo, and any drawing deck
Deeds, I feel are necessary against goblins and merfolks
Charms, are very good against supreme verdict and getting rid of small chump blockers. Also allows us to fight against millions of 1/1 tokens.
Humilty, it's only bc I was found that it was the best way to deal with SnT... but it's also good against nic fit, 12 post, and various decks that put in wtf creatures.


I will be updating though bc Im going to change my main...

[sdematt]

With Omni having won the Bazaar of Moxen, i think people are going to be playing it a bit more now.

I honestly think that in this meta, with all the different flavours of combo, every sideboard should probably look like:

2 Golgari Charm
2-3 Thalia
2-3 Gaddock Teeg

With some mix of discard in the main or more in the board. Sad but true.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

With Omni having won the Bazaar of Moxen, i think people are going to be playing it a bit more now.

I honestly think that in this meta, with all the different flavours of combo, every sideboard should probably look like:

2 Golgari Charm
2-3 Thalia
2-3 Gaddock Teeg

With some mix of discard in the main or more in the board. Sad but true.

-Matt

i probably have to agree to this one, but is thalia really needed?

i am playing tidehollow sculler(3x) in her place, and he has been really good for me, but it seems that thalia would give us the edge over esperblade with her taxing effect, and tidehollow sculler compared to her does not really do that much in that matchup other then being a 1-for-1 most of the time, with not much of a impact on the game as most of the opponents cards give him a 2-for-1

@ matt, what do u think, is sculler viable (leyline of sanctity is no fun as well), or is thalia straight up better in all the scenarios sculler would be used in?

[sdematt]

I think Sculler is totally viable, I just feel like Thalia is better. Why?

1) Really good against Miracles. If you're on the play, their Turn 2 Counterbalance now costs 3, etc. Jace comes down on turn 5, etc.

2) Against Storm Combo, Thalia tax is much better than grabbing one card with Sculler. They have to bounce Thalia to go off, meaning they have to burn more cards (usually 2 or more), whereas with Sculler, it only really hurts if you hit a really key card. Otherwise, they can just wait then go off.

3) Against Esperblade, Lingering Souls becomes a Turn 4 play (with us it's probably still turn 3 with DRS), Supreme Verdict is Turn 5 (maybe giving us enough time to get Gaddock Teeg), same with Jace.

4) In other matchups, she's a 2/1 First Strike, which is pretty great, whereas Sculler is a 2/2.

I feel like in the matchups we want hate, Thalia is just better at slowing them down.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sold...I don't think you can compare Thalia to Sculler. Sculler is additional disruption, a way to support your already strong targeted discard plan with the goal of hitting Liliana turn 3. It's not a push-up bra with sweet cleavage, it's a sports bra that keeps things from bouncing out of control.

I feel that sideboarding in Surgical Extraction is much stronger than Thalia against most combo decks. Targeted discard and Hymn/Liliana become ways to win the game alongside Extraction.

[AggroSteve]

@ Mr. Safety: Sculler has been awesome for me from the very first moment i started using them (thank you btw :P)

my only problem with him is that he does not help at all in soe matchups i strugle with, where thalia probably would beat the crap out of my opponent, or at least help more then sculler... specially esper and miracles, but specially esper

the next problem u have to face if using sculler is a leyline of sanctity, in that case you only get a 2/2 vanilla against a show&tell player which sucks

on the other hand sculler is an occasional 2 for 1 specially against combo, and even against storm he is really awesome, but i did still not test thalia in this matchup

i have one question specially for storm matchup when using sculler:

i won a game against storm easily with 2 scullers and a bit of discard with backup for the ETW plan, because i got to get tendrils and past in flames with my 2 scullers thus delaying him a lot because he had no tutors
my question is: could the storm player still get those cards back with a burning wish? (same thing with a chrome mox, is it possible to get the card back with some kind of wish?)

[Zombie]

No. They're in the exile zone, not outside the game. Removed from the game zone used to be outside the game, but exile isn't. Only way he can Wish those things back is to grab a Pyroclasm and burninate your Scullers.

[Mr. Safety]

@ Mr. Safety: Sculler has been awesome for me from the very first moment i started using them (thank you btw :P)

my only problem with him is that he does not help at all in soe matchups i strugle with, where thalia probably would beat the crap out of my opponent, or at least help more then sculler... specially esper and miracles, but specially esper

the next problem u have to face if using sculler is a leyline of sanctity, in that case you only get a 2/2 vanilla against a show&tell player which sucks

on the other hand sculler is an occasional 2 for 1 specially against combo, and even against storm he is really awesome, but i did still not test thalia in this matchup

i have one question specially for storm matchup when using sculler:

i won a game against storm easily with 2 scullers and a bit of discard with backup for the ETW plan, because i got to get tendrils and past in flames with my 2 scullers thus delaying him a lot because he had no tutors
my question is: could the storm player still get those cards back with a burning wish? (same thing with a chrome mox, is it possible to get the card back with some kind of wish?)

Against storm, I feel that the main plan of discard/Liliana/Sculler is brutal, and I don't think Thalia is needed.

Now, lets talk about this Esper/Miracles nonsense. What exactly is pushing you out of games? Playing the long game isn't really an option against those decks, they excell too much at it. My guess is the problematic cards are Jace
and Terminus.

I've played against Miracles before, and I shaved out 2 games, one close one and the other not so close. The best cards against them are Liliana, Hymn to Tourach, and Gaddock Teeg. Teeg especially takes care of Jace, Terminus, Entreat the Angels, and if you can kill off Mystics you need not worry about Batterskull being hard-cast. I will probably sound like a broken record, but once again you already have strong weapons against them: discard and Liliana. Add to that mix Surgical Extraction (in place of Swords to Plowshares maybe) and you have a pretty sweet, targeted game plan. Swords isn't really that great agains Miracles, you already have Abrupt Decay for most (if not all) of their threats. This is one matchup where I feel that Garruk Relentless and Sylvan Library really shine. Both are just absurd card advantage. The goal with them isn't to gain a marginal advantage, but rather keep them under wraps with some tempo plays and then blast past with big threats like Goyfs and Knights. Lingering Souls is really annoying, but not difficult to overcome, not if you have Zealous Persecution in your sideboard.

The key to Garruk is that he lets you match plays 1-for-1 without using mana, which lets you use your mana to pull ahead with multiple plays a turn. Sylvan Library, ditto. You don't need to invest mana into digging for card quality or even getting an extra card or two if your life total can handle it. Then press your advantage with a beefy threat.

That is what has worked for me against Miracles/Stoneblade variants. They play a similar game plan but their disadvantage is their lack of ability to close games fast (ie Goyf.) Good old Goyf gives you the edge, I think. If you want Thalia (something I'm still working on myself) then I think it's a sideboard option. As an amateur storm player, I HATE THALIA, but I worry about Liliana more than Thalia. Massacre is big-time good against Thalia, and Sculler too honestly. Honestly, against storm it is probably less a matter of which to play and more a matter of 'play both, and how many?'

More than anything, I have realized that I play my deck very closely to Deadguy Ale. I have cruised through that thread and it has helped me devolop my personal list and gameplan. I think you're in a similar boat, especially if you like Sculler so much. Deadguy is much more of a tempo-oriented deck, but still in the 'good stuff' category. I feel that with green for Decay, Goyf, Deathrite, and KotR you can take the best from Junk and the best from Deadguy and make a better deck than either.

EDIT: I also traded into some sweet FNM foil Scullers, which I'm DYING to play with at my next tournament. I am also up to 3 SDT's in my list, and it's made a huge difference (the 3rd replaced a 1-of Library btw.)

[Claymore]

Liliana is okay, but they play off the top of their deck far too well. Hymn is strong until they sideboard Leyline of Sanctity.

Teeg is overall the most powerful card in my testing. They MUST use Swords or immediate counter magic to deal with him, and you can bait their removal with Bobs and Goyfs (if they don't have a RiP in waiting).

You do bring up an interesting question...who is better for the Lingering Souls version, Garruk Relentless or Sorin?

Garruk:
-1 time Psuedo removal
-tutor off of a Souls or Dryad Arbor for Knight, Teeg, Goyf, etc
-2/2 wolves or 1/1 Deathtouch Wolves (better to stabilize the board with walls against Batterskull and some aggro)
-Weak ultimate

Sorin:
-1/1 Lifelink Vampires (weak stalling an aggro push or digging out from under burn)
-Emblem wins Goyf wars, accelerates the Souls clock, gains more life
-Relevant Ultimate against Jace and some creatures

[sdematt]

I played Garruk as a one-of in the maindeck for about 6 months and he was excellent. Truly, in the meta that we were in with Miracles but no Jund yet, the card was fantastic.

However, with the switch to decks with more Snapcasters, Cliques, Punishing Fires and Lingering Souls, Garruk is a ton more fragile than, say, Sorin. Both cards are very good, don't get me wrong. However, Sorin doesn't die to a single Lightning Bolt, assuming you activate him properly against decks that play Bolt. With Garruk, he dies on the spot to Lightning Bolt, and even though some don't realize it, when he's flipped, he dies to Decay.

Teeg is BY FAR the most powerful card against Storm, Esperblade, AND Miracles. He's very, very good. However, discard won't get you all the way there with Storm decks. Ideally you play Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Gaddock Teeg. But, whoever said it is right. They play off the top of their deck. Sure, if you get Liliana going you keep their hand size down so they can't achieve critical mass. However, imagine a scenario where they try to kill off Thalia.


2B= burning wish (with tax) for some sweeper/Thalia removal.

Pass turn.

Play sweeper to kill Thalia off.

Pass turn.

Attempt to go off.


Unless they have the bounce or removal in hand, it'll take them two whole turns (sometimes one) to go get the bounce/removal, and then to play it unless they burn a piece of acceleration. Now let's see with Sculler:


Sculler, taking Infernal Tutor. Pass.

Draw. Probe, Brainstorm/Ponder, find something else. Pass or win.

Sculler attacks, MAYBE you live the dream and discard them again. Pass.

Pass or win.

As I've learned many, MANY times about playing targeted discard versus counterspells against Storm, they can topdeck their win. It'll happen from time to time. Your discard will mean peanuts. What they hate most are permanent based things they need to go find answers for, since it eats turns, cards, and mana, of which they all want to kill you. Thalia AND Gaddock Teeg is a giant kick in the nuts especially if you have a clock.

@ Sorin vs. Garruk

The comparisons are apt. I think you have to see what matchups we're bringing them in against, and which is better.

Garruk's tutoring is pretty great. Mucking a random token to go fetch Knight/goyf is ridiculous. The overrun is good in creature based stalemate matchups, such as Merfolk, Maverick, and Jund if it survived for that long. The ability to muck a creature then poop tokens is also good, but leaves Garruk very fragile. If he started with 4 Loyalty, that'd be different.

Sorin is great since you also produce tokens unaffected by Dread of Night/Plague. Lifelink is relevant sometimes, but the Emblem is VERY VERY good. The emblem changes combat and your clock. Producing Deathtouch Wolves also changes the clock since suddenly you're either sneaking in with the Wolves or using them as blockers. The ultimate is better against Jace decks, which we fear more, and multiple Emblems are pretty good at closing a game out.


In total, I think that with Jund in the meta, as well as Miracle Control, I would want Sorin or Elspeth. If I was to have a third Walker for the Control matchups, it would be Garruk. 2 Sorin 1 Garruk is pretty good, since I can choose to bring in the Garruk against Miracles/other non-Lightning Bolt matchups.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

ok, so probably my boarding plan is not the best

miracles is ok, i am relatively easily able to beat them, but it seems that i board in the wrong cards against esper

for comparison, would you guys share your boarding plan against esper (i really get crushed by that deck way to often) and also telling which package you run MD

thx in advance

[sdematt]

ok, so probably my boarding plan is not the best

miracles is ok, i am relatively easily able to beat them, but it seems that i board in the wrong cards against esper

for comparison, would you guys share your boarding plan against esper (i really get crushed by that deck way to often) and also telling which package you run MD

thx in advance

Against Esper, I'm boarding:

-2 Thoughtseize
-3 Cabal Therapy
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Maze of Ith
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+1 golgari Charm
+1 Pernicious Deed

Knight is kind of subpar in this matchup, and the discard is only okay especially since the games WILL go long. I feel like ideally, you want to basically kill stuff that's attempting to connect with Equipment, then handle Jace. Teeg locks them out of bomb pieces like Batterskull, Jace, EE, and Verdict, and Thalia slows them down since they're more spell-based than us. Use Ooze to clean up and prevent Snapcaster/Academy Ruins shenanigans. Deed away tokens/Equipment.

Use Sorin to Emblem and make tokens. I'd suggest Emblem, token, token, Emblem. Repeat.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

ok, so probably my boarding plan is not the best

miracles is ok, i am relatively easily able to beat them, but it seems that i board in the wrong cards against esper

for comparison, would you guys share your boarding plan against esper (i really get crushed by that deck way to often) and also telling which package you run MD

thx in advance

-2 Tidehollow Sculler
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Swords to Plowshares

+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 Vindicate
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Liliana of the Veil

My list is a couple pages back, for reference.

I am toying with NO-Pro out of the board again, too. Lock the game down with souls tokens and board out Bobs for the Hydra.

Current list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Life from the Loam
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village

Sideboard

2x Lingering Souls
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Vindicate
1x Gaddock Teeg

Alternative Sideboard

2x Lingering Souls
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction


Any input on my sideboard/maindeck would be great. Loam makes the list 61 cards, but I feel that against the decks where Loam/Wasteland are good can help give the edge (BUG, RUG Delver, Jund, Esper Stoneblade) It also frees up a slot from my sideboard for the 4th Surgical, which I've been wanting lately.

Any thoughts on Sneak Attack? That card has been kicking my ASS lately. I deal with Show and Tell easily enough with discard, but Sneak Attack plus a single top-decked (or Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorming into one) Grisel/Emmy is just too much. Sculler is great against Show and Tell/Omni, pretty bad against Sneak Attack. I think a 2nd Teeg is probably my answer, and the Natural Order plan works along with Teeg fine even though it's over-priced. It means I don't need to play GSZ to make the singleton work.

[Claymore]

Worth pointing out that Canonist is probably the best way to deal with OmniTell, considering they rely heavily on using Cunning Wish to find bounce for hate


Karakas, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker
No answer is needed. None of the cards touch this deck expect for opponents naming fetchlands with Pithing Needle.

Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, Vendilion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant
Main deck: Cunning Wish in response to their trigger getting Trickbind. To win immediately you’ll need a second enabler.
Post board: Board in Trickbind. Cunning Wish in response to their trigger getting Firemind’s Foresight. Still in response, get Intuition, Trickbind, and Brainstorm = win.

Humilty, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg
Cunning Wish for Wipe Away/Echoing Truth/Slaughter Pact.

With Canonist out (preferably off of SnT), they have to pass turn, EOT Wish for bounce or kill, then go off. Otherwise they can Wish and Bounce/Kill immediately.

Obviously its important on your turn to take advantage by following up with Thalia, Teeg, or discard...or even Sylvan Safekeeper, oddly enough.

Safekeeper doesn't protect against Wipe Away, but it still forces their hand.

[Mr. Safety]

I guess I wasn't clear: I can deal with Omni-Tell just fine (with the suggestions you mentioned already in my sideboard.) The card killing me is Sneak Attack. I'd rather avoid 'bad' answers like Qasali Pridemage. Pithing Needle maybe?

Also, maybe you weren't directing your reply to me?

[sdematt]

The best way to actually deal with true Sneak and Show decks is Pithing Needle/Humility. They actually can't win through Humility unless they already have the one of two bounce pieces in hand, and Needle doesn't give them a chance to respond. These two cards hose them the fuck out, but Humility just MUCKS them.

Humility also serves double duty against Folk/Goblins/Elves because you have Lingering Souls, so it's VERY good. I'm not running it since I only see Omni in my metagame anymore, not sneak.

-Matt

[Claymore]

Ah, yeah, sorry, I had only seen your sideboard comments, not the question about Sneak Attack.

My aim is Teeg with the typical Knight -> Karakas mode. It's very hard to beat an active Sneak, but worth mentioning that Lingering Souls can flood the field and give you enough permanents to survive a single Annihilator Spaghetti Monster, and possibly allow a game ending swing with Knight. Good luck getting to that critical mass point though...

[Mr. Safety]

No worries, and I already have up to 4 Souls available (2 main, 2 side.) I think I'm going to go back to sideboarding Needles. I always get away from them somehow, and then I slowly come back to them and say to myself 'Oh yeah, those solve a SHIT-ton of problems.'

The real priority is for me to trade/buy a Karakas. *sigh* One of the few cards I've actually had trouble acquiring. EVERYBODY uses it, and now that Death and Taxes is a thing again they disappeared faster than a bag of Cheetos in Rosie O'Donnell's cupboard.

[sdematt]

If you need one, I've got one. I have 4, but you can only have one :P

-Matt

[JanoschEausH]

How do you guys SB against Jund (especially Punishing?). This matchup gives me headaches. I have the feeling, even OTP, i am always a step behind. My list is similiar to sdematt's. After playing with SFM for quite some time, i recently changed to GSZ to have more threat-density.

[sdematt]

In this matchup, you fight over DRS. If you're on the draw, you Swords Deathrite immediately. If you're on the play, jam Deathrite. If not, you need to accelerate.

In the boarded games, they likely board out Liliana (and if they don't, you just get MORE value). Lingering Souls jams the board while you can build up with Knights. Make sure you get Ooze on the table and have the ability to get him to a 3/3 or 4/4 before running it out. Use that to handle his Fires.

I board out hand disruption, whereas they don't since they have very little to bring in against you (their board is moreso against Combo/Jace). They may bring in more discard, but that's fine. Hand disruption is very bad in the long game, which these tend to be. They may bring in Plague to beta Souls, so bring in Golgari Charm as anti-hate and to regenerate your guys if you have to. You can usually survive the hand raping since your topdecks are just better. If they can't Deathrite your yard, Knight is something they cannot handle.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

I've gone back to a very average, middle of the road build. It's simple, straightforward, has game against everything, and is fairly easy to pilot. The maindeck is pretty much locked. 12 cards in the SB have proven themselves as worthwhile (although I'd love to have a 4th Zealous).

SB:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
3 Surgical Extraction
3 ?

In the empty slot, I originally had Krosan Grips. However consider which matchups I will bring in KGrips for? The same matchups where Pulse is extremely important (my MD removal is only 4x StP and 3x Abrupt Decay).

I'd like some input on splitting up these last slots of 0-3 KGrip and 3-0 Maelstrom Pulse.

[sdematt]

Tomorrow there's a tournament that will likely have the following present:

Elves
Goblins
Merfolk
TES
ANT
Omni
Sneak Attack
Esper Stoneblade
BUg Landstill
Jund
RUG/BUG Delver
Deathblade

And this is the sideboard I would run if I ran this deck:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sorin, LOI
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Nihil Spellbomb/Cabal Therapy

Heavy anti-combo slant and heavy anti-Esper/Jund/Deathblade.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

How do you guys SB against Jund (especially Punishing?). This matchup gives me headaches. I have the feeling, even OTP, i am always a step behind. My list is similiar to sdematt's. After playing with SFM for quite some time, i recently changed to GSZ to have more threat-density.

Deathrite their PFires and sideboard Surgical Extraction, I opt for a full set. Extraction is so flexible and useful, I've been really liking it.

Also @Matt: If I were planning against those decks, I'd want 2x Pithing Needle in my sideboard.

Current sideboard:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Lingering Souls
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Vindicate
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Pithing Needle
2x Zealous Persecution
4x Surgical Extraction


Alternatively, I would drop the ZP's, Vindicate, and 1x LSouls for 3x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus. I think against Jund/Stoneblade, it's pretty damn good. A two turn clock does a lot to negate their ability to grind games out.

[Mirrislegend]

Tomorrow there's a tournament that will likely have the following present:

Elves
Goblins
Merfolk
TES
ANT
Omni
Sneak Attack
Esper Stoneblade
BUg Landstill
Jund
RUG/BUG Delver
Deathblade



No Maverick by you? What about Miracles?

[sdematt]

*Forgot to include Maverick, Pox (could be up to 3/20), and Miracles*

I'm not running this deck tomorrow (someone wants to play it), but if I was, I'd run this, after much thought/talking/deliberation:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk Relentess (since I know there's no Punishing Jund, just regular)
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed

I don't expect a ton of graveyard based decks, and if I do, then so be it. I expect more Combo, in all honesty.This board for that expected meta seems just fine.

Loam for the Tempo decks/grindy control matchups, nice with Safekeeper.
Safekeeper to extract value in creature matchups, and protects the hatebears.
Cabal Therapy as the extra discard slot.
Teeg against Dread Return, Jace, Verdict, EE, Batterskull, ETW, Tendrils, etc.
Golgari Charm for weenies, Rest in Peace, Humility, Moat, Verdict, extra creature value.
Thalia for Combo/control.
Deed for everything.
Garruk and Sorin for Control; Garruk since I know there will be no Punishing Fires and the tutoring is great, overrun is good with the tokens.
Sorin because he's awesome.


The best part is having a 13-card board for Miracles/RIP Helm. Cool deck, bro.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Deathrite their PFires and sideboard Surgical Extraction, I opt for a full set. Extraction is so flexible and useful, I've been really liking it.

Also @Matt: If I were planning against those decks, I'd want 2x Pithing Needle in my sideboard.

Current sideboard:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Lingering Souls
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Vindicate
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Pithing Needle
2x Zealous Persecution
4x Surgical Extraction

Just make sure not to NO with no dudes on board. Progenitus doesnt have protection from liliana!

Alternatively, I would drop the ZP's, Vindicate, and 1x LSouls for 3x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus. I think against Jund/Stoneblade, it's pretty damn good. A two turn clock does a lot to negate their ability to grind games out.

[Mr. Safety]

Just make sure not to NO with no dudes on board. Progenitus doesnt have protection from liliana!

Agreed, I do have to be careful. I can PW-rule their liliana, but also realize that the Liliana factor is mitigated easily with Lingering Souls. It's possible I should make sure to have all 4 available, and 3 isn't enough. They block, protect from Liliana/Diabolic Edict, and can drag the game out long enough to make NO-Pro happen.

That was a cryptic response, you get kudos for that. I had to re-read my own quote because I didn't see a reply. Then I saw the minor change...bravo.

[Flopnuts72]

Deck: Junk
This is my first post on the source. I have been a lerker for about a year now and wanted to post the list I have been using to some success at the local store and on cockatrise.
Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:22
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Some points about the list...
I have the md bog because of dredge in my meta. I have also found it useful against rug/knight mirror/and random grave nuke. I like the fact it's uncounterable, can't be hit by targeted discard, and is tutorable.

[Flopnuts72]

Any seggestions and thoughts are greatly appreciated thanks in advance!! BTW this is the best thread on the source!! Keep beating people in the face with ROCK!!

[.Ix]

Deck: Junk
This is my first post on the source. I have been a lerker for about a year now and wanted to post the list I have been using to some success at the local store and on cockatrise.
Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:22
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Some points about the list...
I have the md bog because of dredge in my meta. I have also found it useful against rug/knight mirror/and random grave nuke. I like the fact it's uncounterable, can't be hit by targeted discard, and is tutorable.

This is almost exactly what I used to run. The only differences are -1 bog -1 top +2 wasteland, I think. It's very powerful, but extremely slow. I went to time and drew far too many times in tournaments. I've been experimenting with Garruk Wildspeaker recently, and in many cases it feels like a Natural Order without card disadvantage. It's definitely doing its job as a really good Overrun.

[syfilisx]

ROCK

Lands 21
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Bayou
3x Verdant Catacomb
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Windswept Heath
1x Maze of Ith

Creatures 16
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic

Instants/Sorceries 18
4x Swords to Plowshare
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Cabal Therapy

Planeswalkers 3
3x Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts 2
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard 15
3 Surgical Extractions
2 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Aethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thalia, Guardin of Thraben
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

This list made it to top4 at Porotour Legacy Trial today.

It beat
Oops all spells, where third game it win with nolander hand in his turn 1. Surgical like a boss.
Uw Miracles

Drew with RUG
ID with UWR Tempo (which he came to regret since...)
Top4, lost to manaless dredge 1-2, should he have not took ID, he would have played something else, which in top4, were all great matchups.

There were lot of draws in swiss, so it explains why people got in top8 with bit questionable 2-0-2

[Claymore]

Went 5-1-2 at SCG Nashville, beat Reanimator, Rug x2, Esper blade, Devastating Loam, drew against Dnt and Deathblade (eventual winner) and lost to Lingering Esper blade (top 8). Good for 18th place out of 201.

Ditched IoK for Liliana x2 so only 4 discard (2 TS, 2 Therapy), which was shaky but I dodged combo anyway. I had Tower of the Magistrate sideboard and it was a house in the XBlade matches I got it out. Also ran Cabal Pit in place of Bojuka Bog to do nasty things. These combined to bring me back against a board of Jace, Batterskull, SFM w/ Jitte, and 3 life. Also took down a Batterskull with Sword Feast Famine equipped...all in all the lands are very strong right now. Getting rid of a tap land in Bog has been very good to me too.

Edit:

After getting back in town today, here's the deck I took:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate

I had to take several mulligans to 6 (only one to 5) and my match loss was partly due to being stuck on 2 lands for several turns in both games. I think I'll cut GSZ and either replace with a basic Plains or just leave as is and be at 22/23 functional lands and 60 cards.

[sdematt]

Played in the duals tournament Saturday and went 3-2, losing two close matches to Pox and tin Fins. The Pox player locked me out with double Ensnaring Bridge for about ten turns, then got Cursed Scroll online and burned me out while also having double Pithing Needle on Deathrite Shaman AND Ooze.

Tin Fins was just bad luck on my side, even though I had hate.

I really liked the list and the sideboard though, and beat OmniTell, a 5C Brew, and UWr Miracles. The third Teeg was a monster in the games where it mattered, holy hell. Sylvan Safekeeper is a beating as well.

-Matt

[Petree]

I've played in two tournaments last week. All local. One had about 16 and the other one had 18 (due to spring states).

In the 16 people tournament, I didn't feel like there was a match up i couldn't win just because I felt like I didn't really play Stygian any real deck. I played against expensive cards but against lots of incomplete decks or home brews. I'll give a brief but not a tournament report just because I didn't feel like it pushed my rock list to it's max until the last match. In my first match he played an incomplete version of helm void combo: He did lock me up in game one with RiP + Energy Field. The next two games I blew him out with tarmorgoyf. In the second match I played an aggro elves game: I won with tons of removal, deed and charms. Third match" I played a mono blue hexproof: It consist of creatures coming into play with enchantments on them and playing tons of control spells. I was a bit worried about this match up but decay and charms did a lot of work. The fourth match was the first match that I've ever encountered with The Rock, I played against a complete Lands list. The match was a bit long but i beat him 2-0.... First match two drs just kept eating all his lands and a single goyf was just swinging in every time. The second game went for a long time but I never let him get on board and it didn't help when I extirpated his Life from the Loam and his creeping tarpit. Eventually knight came down and literally just won the game for me. I just wasted all his mazes. Also I feel like sensei's divine top is a much better choice than the sylvan library, being able to manipulate my draws was huge. The MVP card for me that tournament was Golgari Charm. I swear that card just does the work! LOL.... I love love that card in my sideboard. 2 of's. I wouldn't say no more or no less.


In the 18 people tournament I stanked that shiet up!.... smh.... I went 1-2 drop. I was a hypocrite because I vouched for rock lists to run 4 swords while i cut 1 to see how much i liked the deck and it ended up hurting bad. Rock should be playing 4 swords of plowshares. The 1cc removal just goes the distance. In my maverick match up, which by the way he was playing the new version, it would've been very handy dandy. I +2 GSZ and I didn't like it at all. Don't get me wrong, I love GSZ and feel that it's a very powerful card but I rather just have useful utility cards to abuse. I also added a Thrun main and didn't like it either. I felt as is I fu**ed the decks synergy up some how lol. But I all also lost to death and taxes. The only match I won was against miracles.

Since then i've retuned the list:

4 Swords of Plowshare is very significant.
+1 Liliana of the veil making 3 MD I feel is very comfortable and useful.
+1 Jitte, 2 MD can be devastating in any match-up. Even combo for life gain.

I also invested in a full set of foil golgari charms because that card is a literally house. I've -1/-1 a whole field of spirits and goblins. Destroyed sneak attack and numerous enchantments. And have saved my whole team to a top deck supreme verdict lol... All I can say is that I feel it's a must in most sideboards.

Oh and to update the discussion on Nantuko Monastary! Uh.... It's pretty awesome lol I didn't think it would do it's job but it has and ppl don't like it when it's animated. Against control it's sooooo nasty. I've been thinking though to replace it with Tower of the Magistrate, just to try it out. It seems like what i've said is holding true, esper is becoming relevant. So I want to see how much value I can gain from using the tower. My thinking behind it is that, nantuko can prevent jitte counters and batterskull affects but it can't fly!!! lol so when it's equipped to a spirit token i'll get srewed. That's why I feel like the tower can do more work since it'll just unequip those equipments.

[AggroSteve]

i am quite intrested now, would you mind posting your entire list?

thx

[Mr. Safety]

Went 5-1-2 at SCG Nashville, beat Reanimator, Rug x2, Esper blade, Devastating Loam, drew against Dnt and Deathblade (eventual winner) and lost to Lingering Esper blade (top 8). Good for 18th place out of 201.

Ditched IoK for Liliana x2 so only 4 discard (2 TS, 2 Therapy), which was shaky but I dodged combo anyway. I had Tower of the Magistrate sideboard and it was a house in the XBlade matches I got it out. Also ran Cabal Pit in place of Bojuka Bog to do nasty things. These combined to bring me back against a board of Jace, Batterskull, SFM w/ Jitte, and 3 life. Also took down a Batterskull with Sword Feast Famine equipped...all in all the lands are very strong right now. Getting rid of a tap land in Bog has been very good to me too.

Edit:

After getting back in town today, here's the deck I took:



I had to take several mulligans to 6 (only one to 5) and my match loss was partly due to being stuck on 2 lands for several turns in both games. I think I'll cut GSZ and either replace with a basic Plains or just leave as is and be at 22/23 functional lands and 60 cards.

Let me throw a theoretical question at you: do you think sideboarding NO-Pro would have helped out in the matches you lost?

I'm debating dropping the Bob's to the sideboard, playing a board-control maindeck, and opting for a NO-Pro approach. It lets me work in a bunch of control, allows me to play all 4 copies of Lingering Souls, a Sorin in the main, 3 maindeck Lilianas, and maindeck Deeds.

[Claymore]

I only lost one match and it was to Esper Stoneblade, where I got stuck on 2 lands for many, many turns each game. Esper runs Supreme Verdict which could have killed Progenitus if the Natural Orders weren't Thoughtseized first (which is how I lost my Sorin). He also outraced my final comeback turn with a Zealous Persecution and a full fleet of Lingering Souls tokens - my Golgari Charms were no where to be found, unfortunately. Overall I was 1-1-1 against Esper for the day. The other draw was to Death and Taxes, where you would have to get to 4 mana (or 5 with Thalia) against a resource denial control deck, but this player was mostly just slower than I'm used to.

As far as the NO-Prog package goes, I'm not really sure what I would cut to make space for it. Probably the 2 Sorins, Chains, Teeg, and Jitte. My main board plan against Esper was to remove the discard and play Tower, Sorin, Teeg, and Charms. I wasn't fully prepared for this matchup and still need to fully test Chains against it. The overall notion was to go aggro against them instead of trying to out-control the deck with countermagic.

[KobeBryan]

I only lost one match and it was to Esper Stoneblade, where I got stuck on 2 lands for many, many turns each game. Esper runs Supreme Verdict which could have killed Progenitus if the Natural Orders weren't Thoughtseized first (which is how I lost my Sorin). He also outraced my final comeback turn with a Zealous Persecution and a full fleet of Lingering Souls tokens - my Golgari Charms were no where to be found, unfortunately. Overall I was 1-1-1 against Esper for the day. The other draw was to Death and Taxes, where you would have to get to 4 mana (or 5 with Thalia) against a resource denial control deck, but this player was mostly just slower than I'm used to.

As far as the NO-Prog package goes, I'm not really sure what I would cut to make space for it. Probably the 2 Sorins, Chains, Teeg, and Jitte. My main board plan against Esper was to remove the discard and play Tower, Sorin, Teeg, and Charms. I wasn't fully prepared for this matchup and still need to fully test Chains against it. The overall notion was to go aggro against them instead of trying to out-control the deck with countermagic.

why would you play NO prog against esper?

[sdematt]

Since no one has really touched this:


Flopnuts72

Deck: Junk
This is my first post on the source. I have been a lerker for about a year now and wanted to post the list I have been using to some success at the local store and on cockatrise.
Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:22
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Some points about the list...
I have the md bog because of dredge in my meta. I have also found it useful against rug/knight mirror/and random grave nuke. I like the fact it's uncounterable, can't be hit by targeted discard, and is tutorable.


Your list looks fine. It's tuned for your meta obviously with the SFM package and such. One thing: I think 2 Ooze is too many, especially with GSZ. I would cut an Ooze for a SFM, and possibly cut a Knight for a Goyf (since sometimes you want to GSZ on X=2 for a 5/6). Or, with all the combo floating around, perhaps a maindeck Gaddock Teeg. Guy is damn good against Esper.

Otherwise, the tutor board seems fine. You could also run a split of Garruk Relentless and Sorin just for more tutoring, if you felt like you needed it/if you know there's less Punishing Fires in your metagame.

Otherwise, I think it looks good. I think the basic plains could be a basic Swamp or another dual, though. The plains is really bad most of the time, I've found.

-Matt

[sdematt]

I think we need to take a good hard look and see how we're beating Esper. I see a ton of different plans all over the fucking place, and no real cohesive or agreed upon strategy. I mean, I guess it depends on the build, but we need to still go over a few cards at least.

1) Tower of the Magistrate: I feel like if you're keeping Knights in for this matchup, then bringing in a Tower is perfectly fine. Like, more than fine. However, I'm just wondering, why are you keeping Knights in? What's everyone's reason for actually keeping these in games 2 and 3? Let's look at a sample list:


Traditional Esperblade:


2-3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
0-1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1-2 Clique

Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mystic Gate
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Spells (28)

1 Batterskull
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Detention Sphere
1 Engineered Plague
1 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile/Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Supreme Verdict

How they're beating the creature decks is Swords + Snapcaster Mage, roll into Jace/Batterskull and win the game. So, how are you stopping this?

1) Discard their SFM/Kill it before they untap with that. This is a major nutkick and puts Esper on the back-pedal since they're down being able to cheat equipment into play, but also a creature to hook it up to. Considering they only run ~10 guys, this is a major problem for them, that's why Jund rocks their socks. Killing in response to equipping is super cool business, and such, so is Tower of the Magistrate.

2) Stop them from playing Jace/Batterskull/EE/Verdict. Even if Jace doesn't ramp up, he's digging for mass removal/more goodies to blow out your team. Batterskull is super annoying and the lifegain can buy them turns and turns. EE can take out critical DRS's or Sylvans. Verdict wipes you out of the game. How do you battle huge control elements.

Gaddock. Fucking. Teeg.

This is the same plan against Miracles. They need to go find Swords or Snapcaster (or both) before laying out control bombs, whereas you don't even care. Eve if they ping him off, they had to do a ton of work (hopefully) going to find removal, while you're laying out attrition pieces (like Souls, your own Equipment, Library, etc.).

Even delaying any sort of attrition action on their part is good times for you. So you can either stop their attrition, slow it down, or just nut them (Natural Order could be good, but their mix of discard and counters could be dicey).


Let's put it this way, their sample board plan with this list is likely:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Counterspell
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+1 Perish/Path to Exile
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Zealous Persecution (if they see Souls)
+3 Geist of St. Traft (not necessarily strictly true, but they can clock you and it dodges all our removal)

So they're likely bringing out mostly useless counters, since we have tons of discard, for more control bombs to X-for-1 us. This is a legitimate path to victory. They also bring in a few more bodies to hook up to more equipment, coupled with some nice hate. Cool beans.

So what are we doing, assuming we're on the draw? Again, assuming a GSZ/Souls based list:


Sideboard:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk Relentess (since I know there's no Punishing Jund, just regular)
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed

Maindeck

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Ooze

4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith



So, the real question is, how are you fighting their differing angles of attack? They don't bring in Rest in Peace, so you don't need to board out everything. However, this game/match is going to get grindy, so you might as well strap in for the long game. Let's analyze what cards are TERRIBLE in the matchup.

....


None. This is the main problem when facing Esperblade. You can't cut tutoring/card draw/manipulation, since that's how you keep up and win.

Can't cut removal, since you need to kill their Equipment and guys so they can't attack you with Equipment.

Lingering Souls is one of the stronger pieces of attrition you have, and can survive sweepers/harasses Jace.

So, if we're trying to prevent Equipment from being a reliable win condition, and preventing Jace/Batterskull being another avenue, how are we doing this?

Ideally, Gaddock Teeg and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben do what you want them to do. Gaddock Teeg makes them dig so they can blow you out with Verdict/EE/Jace. So, play a few copies and tutor for them in case he dies in a fire, which he will.

Stopping Snapcaster+removal is done by Ooze and Deathrite, as well as Thalia making EOT plays like this harder and harder to do. Delaying big control bombs from coming down until Turn 5 so you can land Teeg is huge.

I know everyone knows and loves discard in this matchup, but is that really a thing? I feel like I WANT to take out Knight for a few reasons:

It's a creature that is played on Turn 3 and does NOTHING until turn 4. Being on the draw means this creature is AWFUL. Turn 3 on the draw is crucial since it's turning into their Jace/Verdict turn, or they've assembled Souls and are waiting to slam a bomb if they have it. I feel like I want to be doing something else than wasting a turn 3 playing a Knight.

I get it's a big/big creature that fetches some cool lands, but I feel in this matchup it's rather lacking. I feel like to handle Esperblade, I want to bring in elements that hammer SFM, SCM+Swords, and Jace.

I feel like bringing in 3 Teeg, 3 Thalia, 2 Golgari charm, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (for Souls/Humility/Verdict) substituted for 3 Knight, 1 Maze, and 5 pieces of discard seems like a good trade. You're a bit more reactive, I'll admit that, but getting blown out by Jace and control pieces is not my idea of fun.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

But, there's a new kid on the block. Deathblade!


Deathblade


Creatures (16)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)

1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

Spells (18)

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate


So, they've gone more mid-range then, and may or may not go Liliana. But, we're the better midrange deck. So, I think the plan for this deck changes a bit. Sure, they bring in Verdict from the board, but they have more creatures to kill on their own side. I think as long as we make sure to nuke their Deathrite Shamans and Equipment (but not the SFM unless they're going for Batterskull), then we should be fine. I think in this boarded matchup, we're the control deck. You bring in 2 Deeds, 2 Charms, 1 Safekeeper for the 5 pieces of discard and keep in the Knights, since it just totally outclasses their shitty small dudes.


Again, thoughts?

I just want to make sure we have a cohesive strategy to work with.

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Personal bias aside, I feel like leaving the Therapies in (and possibly bringing in the 3rd out of the board) is a good plan. Esper (and especially deathblade) gives you so much free information that Therapy can be an absolute beating -- and the only thing better than discarding their SFM, is hitting their Batterskull after they tutor for it.

Agreed on cutting Knights and Thoughtseizes. Using that (is it your list?) as a starting point, I would go:

-3 Knight
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Souls
-1 Goyf

+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Sorin
+1 Garruk
+3 Teeg
+2 Golgari Charm
+3 Thalia

Rationale: Cutting Knight IMO means cutting Maze of Ith. In this matchup, Maze isn't going to do a whole hell of a lot other than sit there and piss you off. Ideally you might be able to frustrate their Batterskull or their Sword'd guy, but then their Sword'd guy is on defense, and if Batterskull is out, you probably lost anyway.

Other than Souls, SFM, Snapcaster (lol), Jitte, and postboard Feast/Famine, Esperblade doesn't really have anything worth Decaying. As such, I'd say that cutting down to a 2-Decay package should be sufficient when coupled with the 3 StP.

Shaving a Goyf and a Souls is a concession to space mostly -- Goyf makes more sense of the two, because you're cutting a green creature for white ones, thereby dodging the Perish they're bringing in. Also, with GSZ, you can find Goyf lategame when you need a big dude. You don't need 3 for this matchup IMO. Souls is a rough shave, but I think that the deck can afford going down to 3 -- especially since you're bringing in the Golgari Charms and will need to be a little more cagey with when you use your Souls. This cut is debatable, but all in all I'd rather have any one of the sideboarded cards than the 4th Souls in this matchup.

[Claymore]

Only problem with taking Knights out is that you lose a ton of utility to counteract their main win condition. Knights overall were key in the games I won against Esper, partially due to the slight design changes I made to the deck with Cabal Pit and Tower. Even without those lands, your knight acts as 3-4 extra equipment removal spells (or more with GSZ) since he grabs Maze of Ith to counteract equipment, especially Jitte. We can block Batterskull with our face fine for a time (and then return the favor quickly with massive Knights), but an active Jitte will annihilate our field. Batterskull on defense (due to a Maze or huge Knight) means a stalled field, which is where you get to tick up Deathrite Shaman.

Teeg is great, but I'm not entirely convinced of Thalia. Thalia and Teeg means you're going more of an aggro, Dark Maverick game plan with no heavy beater aside from Goyf, trying to outrace the eventual lifelinking Batterskull with your 2/x army. Unfortunately, this also means your field gets raped by Jitte, and their deck is dedicated to finding Jitte; a problem further hampered by taking out discard. Don't forget that they also run Karakas and Venser, which is what allowed one Esper to bounce Teeg and Supreme Verdict the field. A Batterskull of your own is good with SFM, but then you're just bumping heads.

I think overall, Esper is designed to get to the late game, and Teeg/Thalia alone cannot let us keep them in the early-mid game. A late game top decked Thalia is much worse than a Knight, especially when facing down a Jace, SFM w/ Jitte, and Batterskull. A Knight allows you utility to prevent Jitte from removing your Shamans, as well as stopping the Sword of Feast and Famine that is making its way into decks (I saw it in 2 matches). It did let me, in one game, fetch Cabal Pit to kill SFM w/ Jitte, play Liliana to kill Batterskull, and swing and kill Jace.

Cabal Therapy is definitely good here, and I'll probably try and leave it in in the future, maybe going 1-2-3 IoK-TS-Therapy, although I'll have to figure out where to fit it all. One Esper player (sadly, my match loss) made a gross misplay of bouncing Batterskull his turn and then playing Supreme Verdict, where I simply flashed back Souls to flashback Therapy it out.

I kept in AD's and Swords to specifically remove Jitte and their small creatures (Batterskull token, Clique, Dark Confidant). Your 2 mana AD counteracts their 6 mana to cast SFM, put in Jitte, and attach it and swing. Big tempo play that I made all day.

My overall deck design and game plan was to specifically counter SFM and then overrun their depleted field. It worked fairly well, even though my record was even across the board.

---

All that said, Thalia is definitely useful in a lot of matches, and it would be worthwhile for sure to test her out some more. I'll have to check this out.

[Mirrislegend]

I follow the arguments for siding out Knight against control decks. But how does one justify cutting discard?

[Arianrhod]

I follow the arguments for siding out Knight against control decks. But how does one justify cutting discard?

It's a horrible, horrible topdeck in games that are very likely to go late. The only reason Therapy escapes this fate IMO, is that you can use it to aggressively combat their Dark Confidants and Stoneforge Mystics. Also, you can Pulse their Batterskull midgame, then when they invariably bounce it, you can get rid of it forever. Therapying on t3 naming Jace isn't a slouch, either.

[sdematt]

I follow the arguments for siding out Knight against control decks. But how does one justify cutting discard?

Yeah, because it's a horrible late game topdeck. Maybe it's just sampling bias, but I've just had a few too many times where I've topdecked discard in the late game where it was doing absolutely nothing. Again, possible bias.

But I like that we're creating discussion on the topic to see how we're beating them. I approve.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Yeah, because it's a horrible late game topdeck. Maybe it's just sampling bias, but I've just had a few too many times where I've topdecked discard in the late game where it was doing absolutely nothing. Again, possible bias.

But I like that we're creating discussion on the topic to see how we're beating them. I approve.

-Matt
Late game topdeck fails are inherent in almost every card choice in almost every matchup. It's the risk vs reward that must be examined.

The odds are vastly in our favor. Top (or Library), fetches, and Confidant tend to save us from wasted draws.
Also, I'll take the bad draw in the late game if it lets me eat a super relevant spell earlier (tell me you don't like Thoughtseizing a Jace!)
Lastly, it has applications in the mid to late game. How often do they cast stoneforge AND the tutored equipment on the same turn. Eat that equipment straight out of their hand!
I see the reward as vastly outweighing the risk.

To be honest, the only issue I see is "which discard to use?" I'm on 4x Thoughtseize, 2x IoK (and 3x Lili). But 1 to 2 of those Inquisitions becoming Duresses has occurred to me, since combo and control are so much more prevalent than little critters these days. (I'm not sure I'm good enough to play Cabal Therapy properly)

[sdematt]

First, the obvious:
Late game topdeck fails are inherent in almost every card choice in almost every matchup.

Sure, but some cards are worse than others. At least a creature can swing in, a piece of discard on an empty hand doesn't.


More importantly:
The odds are vastly in our favor. Top (or Library), fetches, and Confidant tend to save us from wasted draws.
Also, I'll take the bad draw in the late game if it lets me eat a super relevant spell earlier (tell me you don't like Thoughtseizing a Jace!)
Lastly, it has applications in the mid to late game. How often do they cast stoneforge AND the tutored equipment on the same turn. Eat that equipment straight out of their hand!

I'm not saying I like cutting the discard, because I too like to muck up their hand, however, it is the most appropriate cut, I figure.


To be honest, the only issue I see is "which discard to use?" I'm on 4x Thoughtseize, 2x IoK (and 3x Lili). But 1 to 2 of those Inquisitions becoming Duresses has occurred to me, since combo and control are so much more prevalent than little critters these days. (I'm not sure I'm good enough to play Cabal Therapy properly)

If you're on Souls, run Cabal Therapy. So this is how you run Cabal Therapy:

If it's turn 1, and you have no idea what they're on, call out what nuts your hand from the most common deck. Ex. Deathrite, SFM, Force, etc.

If you know what deck, what kills you? What DON'T you want to see? If you have no removal for a Turn 2 SFM, then call SFM. If it's the Jace you fear down the line, maybe wait until before they play it.

Ideally, you get information from how they play or another discard spell. If you don't have that, then you need to call the cards that cause you to lose or disrupt your gameplan. That simple.

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Also, don't be afraid to whiff. I won't pretend to say that I'm godly with my Therapies, and I've been playing the card for two years straight now. If you call the thing you're scared of, and they have it, then that's awesome! If you call it and they DON'T have it, then that's still fine because you still aren't losing to that card in their hand, and now you have information going ahead. A lot of times I'll have reads on my opponent and know 1-2 cards in their hand -- but I won't call something that I know (or am pretty sure) will hit because I'm just not scared of it.

I hear that statement a lot -- the whole, I'm not good enough to play Therapy! excuse. Bullshit. You know well enough what will destroy you the worst of any card ever in your opponent's deck. Vs Esperblade, if you can physically move the muscles in your mouth to name Batterskull, you can play Therapy.

[AggroSteve]

I hear that statement a lot -- the whole, I'm not good enough to play Therapy! excuse. Bullshit. You know well enough what will destroy you the worst of any card ever in your opponent's deck. Vs Esperblade, if you can physically move the muscles in your mouth to name Batterskull, you can play Therapy.

i totaly have to agree on that
i previously used hymn in a dark horizon build. when i switched to a midrage-type of build i used inquisition of kozilek first, because i thought i was not good enough to use cabal therapy properly

fail on my part :tongue:

once i tried cabal therapy i soon realized the power difference between the two cards, and blind-calling something is really not that hard, once you have seen their first turn, actually its pretty easy, and if you just slightly understand how the opponents deck works it becomes even easier.

i would even go as far to say that even a noob with cabal therapy should be able to get at least 30% of the blindcalls to hit something in their hand.
once you get used to the card and how its played best you can easily reach the 50% of blindcalls to hit, and that is allready enough because of the reason Arianrhod stated, that you mostly call only stuff you do not want to see hitting the table

in addition to that in todays meta most decks give a lot of information away on what cards our opponents might be holding (specially dark confidant and stoneforge mystic)

on the boarding topic against esper and deathblade i think that cabal therapy might actually be good to stay in the MD after boarding as the biggest problem they can give to us is their equipment IMO, be it batterskull, jitte, or feast and famine, we do not really want to see any of them.
therefore i would keep every Abrupt Decay in MD as well

in my board i use Tidehollow sculler over thalia at the moment, but i might switch once i have tried thalia a bit more... we will see

tidehollow sculler is not really good against esper and deathblade in my expierience, therefore i keep 2 knights main (3 preboard) and also keep in maze of ith as most blue-based blade-decks can not handle maze of ith (tower of magistrate would be even stronger) because often they have no wastelands

i still got to overthink my boardingplan against those 2 deck, because i still get wrecked by them way to often, but this were just some thoughts on my part

another thing i was wondering is if there is anyone out there with a different approach to our deck, outside of GSZ, Lingering Souls, Knight and SFM
maybe a Vampire Hexmage approach would be viable again, or maybe something completely different.

[Mr. Safety]

why would you play NO prog against esper?

I asked about it because I'm considering using it in my sideboard.

It is a two turn clock that wins the game if Natural Order resolves. They have outs, but possibly not in time. Esper Stoneblade seems to be pretty good at grinding long games, and Jace can make the difference. No-Pro could be an answer to several decks that out-grind Junk, as a way to just end games fast.

[thecrav]

I asked about it because I'm considering using it in my sideboard.

It is a two turn clock that wins the game if Natural Order resolves.

I like NO-Pro, but I gotta disagree with you here. If they get a Batterskull into play, that lifelink gives them one extra turn. That means they've got at least 12/13 cards total (assuming they don't play any drawspells, 7 in the original hand + draw turns 1-6/7) to find a sweeper, which all of them are playing.


Source:
At Nashville, all 3 Esper decks in the top 8 ran sweepers:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55937 (2 supreme verdict)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55931 (2 supreme vedrict)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55947 (2 supreme verdict split between main and sideboards)

With ~13/60 cards, that's just under a 50% chance

[Claymore]

New legend rule makes Liliana insanely powerful in multiples

[Claymore]

New Legend Rule makes it so that Knight can fetch up Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage to get a 20/20 Marit Lage.

[AggroSteve]

as far as i understand those changes the do not effect us much, other than you can now chain liliana effects if you have multiples in hand, and even in that case i would keep the extra ones until my first one dies.

the only really relevant thing that changes IMO is that karakas and jitte still live on if the opponent has one, which makes jitte much more of a vialbe option against any bladevariant IMO

if i am mistaken, please explain why there should be so much of a difference now

[Claymore]

I think it just makes several aspects of our game stronger.

As Deadguy Ale says,


Huge rules change.

"Let's play 4 Liliana"

Chaining Lilianas is absurdly powerful. You can now drop the second Jitte to free up space in the sideboard (replace with Mankiri or w/e to still kill Jittes).

A singleton Jitte in a SFM deck or tutorboard is now much stronger since it can't be killed by opposing Jittes.

Show and Tell can't board in their own Karakas...although I don't see why they wouldn't just use Wasteland in the first place.

Also, the Thespian Depths combo I mentioned above.

[damionblackgear]

New legend rule makes Liliana insanely powerful in multiples

True.

New Planeswalker rule summed up - They only see other legends of their type (Liliana, Jace, etc) on their owners side of the field. When they see other, one may stay (owners choice so keep the one that's still active), the others die. [Source (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e)]

That means that you can't use a Liliana as a pseudo-vindicate to get out from under a Liliana. So, she just became that much more of an annoyance on your opponent's side as well.

The same thing happened to the Legendary rule.

Sideboarding will be 60+/0-15 for starts instead of 60+/"0 or 15" now. You still don't get to pre-board against a match but boarding is no longer 1;1 exchanges. You just have to have 60+ in the deck when you present it. Be careful abusing that in this format (not just this deck). Most decks are tuned to run at a minimal land count, for consistency. Boarding in too much will throw off you're ability to play you're cards.

There's a semi-confusing (because they explained it seemingly to be more complex than it really is) adjustment for playing lands with effects that let you play extra. Now you can play your land per turn after your extra land plays ("land for exploration" before "land for turn"). Soon, Things that let you play additional lands only raise the count of how many lands played. Also, there is no more "Land for exploration" crap. It'll be: land 1, land 2, land 3, etc. When you reach your limit, you're done. Example: Exploration gives you ONE extra land play per turn. So you can play two lands. If you've played 2 lands already, removing exploration from play and having it come back does not let you play a third. You can play 2 lands (Turn + Exploration), and you have played 2. If anyone has any questions I'll try to help.

The other two changes really don't matter in this format right now: Indestructible is now a keyword and Unblockable is not anymore

[sdematt]

I think it just makes several aspects of our game stronger.

As Deadguy Ale says,



Chaining Lilianas is absurdly powerful. You can now drop the second Jitte to free up space in the sideboard (replace with Mankiri or w/e to still kill Jittes).

A singleton Jitte in a SFM deck or tutorboard is now much stronger since it can't be killed by opposing Jittes.

Show and Tell can't board in their own Karakas...although I don't see why they wouldn't just use Wasteland in the first place.

Also, the Thespian Depths combo I mentioned above.

Not only is Lili powerful, Jace is REALLY REALLY good now. Getting Jace low without killing him to strand the other one in their hand is no longer an option. There will be Jace blowouts where They use their Jace, and say, bounce a creature and go to Jace with 1 counter. Then, Drop Jace #2, kill the old one, and either fateseal/Brainstorm/bounce again. That's pretty insane.

This now means getting EVERY Jace is important.

I tested a few games against Esper yesterday and Knight was fine. I tested without Teeg since the argument the Esper player made was that, "I can play about 85% of my game without Jace. Jace is just a nice bonus." And it's true. I think one Teeg to bring in is fine, but Thalia was much more decisive. The deck is still cantripping to find answers, and trying to Swords and Snapcaster. Making that harder means they need to cantrip into more lands to cast spells, not just into pure spells, which really slows them down.

However, with this Jace nonsense, we'll see what happens.

Also, we can cut an Abrupt Decay in the boarded games, but don't cut Souls. It's so good.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I bought in on the hype for Knight of the Thespian Depths, gonna test it out either main or side.

[AggroSteve]

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage

i am not sure if i get this one right, how would this combo work exactly?

my thoughts on it would have been that when dark depths is allready on the field and thespian's stage comes into play as a copy of dark depths you keep thespian's stage and because it has no counters on it you get the 20/20 Marit Lage, am i right on this?

[Nihilis]

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage

i am not sure if i get this one right, how would this combo work exactly?

my thoughts on it would have been that when dark depths is allready on the field and thespian's stage comes into play as a copy of dark depths you keep thespian's stage and because it has no counters on it you get the 20/20 Marit Lage, am i right on this?

Yes.

When you copy the Dark Depths with Thespian's Stage, the latter becomes a Dark Depths but without the ice counters. Before this rule, both lands would be destroyed due to the legend rule. This meant that the copied Dark Depths would be destroyed first, before the 'sacrifice this to put Marit Lage into play' clause could resolve. Now you destroy the original Dark Depths and keep the Thespian's Stage, so the sacrifice trigger will go through and you get the token.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys,
i have just transitioned from Deadguys Ale to Junk, because since Deathrite Shaman exists i wanted to play the optimal shell for this card, which is Junk, in my humble opinion.
This is my actual list:

Artifact: (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top (could be Libraries - still testing)

Creatures: (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Tarmogoyf (could be 3 maybe)

Instant: (7)
3x Abrupt Decay (i like the split 3x Decay 1x Pulse - as i first saw in Matts list)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Land: (23)
2x Bayou
2x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland

Sorcery: (12)
2x Cabal Therapy (testing 2x Inquisition of Kozilek - could aswell be 3 Therapy/Inquisition by dropping a land)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize

SB: under development (will contain at least 2x Deed, x Gaddock Teegs, Thalias or Canonists, SnT-Hate and Extractions beside other GY-hate)

The new legend-rule kept me thinking. If Liliana's and Jaces are going rampant in the next time why not keep fighting them with Phyrexian Revokers? I know from the time playing Deadguy that this card is extremely powerful, especially considering the collateral dmg against Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Equipment and Mother of Runes. What do you think of it? I can't find room for it in my list, what would you drop? Do you think it fits in here? Do you have any recommendations regarding my list?

Best Regards!

[Mirrislegend]

So is the general consensus that, if one is playing any Liliana's, we almost certainly need to play 4 of them?

[sdematt]

I don't think you NEED to play 4 Liliana if you do play her, but if your gameplan is all about Liliana or Jace, then maximize on that.

I played my list has night to a 2-0-2 (had to leave last round, so we drew) finish to third place. Unintentional draw against Jund in Round 3. I had her beat, but needed an extra turn.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite
1 Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
3 Zenith
3 Sylvan (again, the gamebreaker. Carried me so far against Jund/Esper)
4 Lingering souls (again, House)

--BOARD--

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Loam
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Cabal Therapy


More to come later. Beat Deathblade, tied with Jund, 2-0'd Merfolk, left against Esperblade.

Overall, the gameplan against Esperblade seemed fine. Bring in Thalia, take out Thoughtseize, bring in Cabal Therapy, cut a single Abrupt Decay.

Gaddock Teeg actually isn't a must in the matchup. Knights were fine and won me a game, in all honesty (I wanted to try keeping them in again). However, I feel like Knight is VERY much an "on the play" card. On the draw, being a turn behind Jace, you want to have maybe your own Planeswalker to land on Turn 4 and disrupt on Turn 3, etc.

Deathblade is way easier of a matchup, I think. You get to bring in more Charms and Deeds and wreck their face. Hooray! The Lotion Thief is a pretty good one, though.

-Matt

[Petree]

In the Esper match-up I have never taken out the knights draw or play. The reason why is because he's a closer and pressures the control player a lot especially along tarmorgoyf. I have never brought in teeg either. I approach the match-up almost like the maverick match-up. I have brought in my extirpates to target their lingering souls and it literally gives them 2 other ways to win. Jace or batterskull, which isn't hard anymore bc if I discard or make the skull not a threat no more, i let the creatures in my deck do the winning, aggro beats control. I have switched the nantuko monastery to a tower of magistrate and it's been good. The new maverick plays almost the same game. I do agree though, I usually do take out the discard spells because they are really crappy later. Lilianna does a lot of work in this matchup so does DRS. So they'll always attempt to counter the DRS or remove him. Which then I let my DRS just become a bait. Always though bring in deeds and charms lol

[Claymore]

Nevermind, Notion Thief cannot be effectively used against Sylvan Library. Sylvan is a "may" ability, and since you choose to draw or not on resolution, all Thief does is stop you from using it.

Speaking of Sylvan, an opponent at my last tournament showed me that you can partially utilize two Sylvans to get your own version of Braincestral Recall. I wasn't aware of it so I'll share: With a fetchland or unnecessary Knight in play, use the first trigger of Sylvan to draw one or more cards. With the second trigger on the stack, use your fetch/Knight to get 2 brand new cards to look at and swap out with the card(s) you drew on the first trigger.

This makes multiple Sylvans much more useful than I thought, and I'm gonna have to try and put in #3 again.

I'm not all that convinced on Extirpate on Souls, since Esper will often be required to hold it until 5 mana due to an active Deathrite Shaman.

[sdematt]

Yeah, just watch out for Lotion Thief on your Sylvan. We don't get blown out quite as hard as Jace or Brainstorm, but it still needs to be dealt with quickly.

Actually, how does that work? Sylvan is a "may". Does "may" get used when the trigger resolves or is it assumed "yes I will" when you put the trigger on the stack (alternative being to not put it on the stack at all)?

It's a MAY. So if he Lotion Thiefs you in response to the Sylvan trigger, you just decide NOT to do Sylvan, and he gets no value.

The only value that he gets out of Lotion Thief in our matchup is you get to quote Silence of the Lambs.

"It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again!"


Speaking of Sylvan, an opponent at my last tournament showed me that you can partially utilize two Sylvans to get your own version of Braincestral Recall. I wasn't aware of it show I'll share: With a fetchland or unnecessary Knight in play, use the first trigger of Sylvan to draw one or more cards. With the second trigger on the stack, use your fetch/Knight to get 2 brand new cards to look at and swap out with the card(s) you drew on the first trigger.

This makes multiple Sylvans much more useful than I thought, and I'm gonna have to try and put in #3 again.

Yes, it is marginally useful for sure. I try to keep telling people Sylvan is a beast, but no one listens :P I'm also very certain you can put back cards from the first Sylvan as well on the second trigger, since they're cards you drew NOT on your initial draw, as well.

@ Esper matchup

The issue is also there are two flavours of this matchup. In the Esperblade matchup, bringing in Golgari Charm to wipe out Dark Confidant is also quite important (and Deed is even better against a deck packing more and more creatures + Equipment, much like facing a quasi-Blue Maverick deck with Jace).

The thing is, we need more X-for-1's in this matchup. That's the issue. There's no card that we have (or use yet) that has the "Get you!" factor like they have for us: Perish, Supreme Verdict, EE, Zealous Persecution, SoFF, etc.

Thalia is very good (and I mean, VERY good). I was playing Esper and my friend was playing Junk, and it wasn't fun to have Thalia on the other side of the board, for sure. Some builds aren't even playing Lingering Souls (or if they are, it's a 1-2 of). Only the old, old builds are playing 3-4.

In fact, looking at the lists, they aren't even playing Sword of Feast and Famine. I know my friend is since I'm on Junk 24/7, but still, this is something to be noted.

The 7th place list from Nashville is the more traditional build.

I think it's about finding cards that absolutely harangue the Esper player if it's a big enough threat. Miracles is not even a thing for us, and I think that's fine. But, I think we have to decide if we're the aggro deck or we're the control deck when facing either a traditional Esper variant or a Deathblade variant.

My opinion is that against a Deathblade variant, we're the control deck since they have less access to X-for-1's and the ability to lock up the board while Jace comes down (aka they don't play Souls or as many Sweepers). Deathblade is much more focused on value creatures, which we can nicely sweep away, whereas traditional Esper Control is more focused on stack interaction and Sweepers.

I think against something that placed first or second at Nashville, I'd want to bring this against them:

+2 Deed (higher chance of having an X-for-1, which is where you get your value, plus they're counterspell light)
+3 Thalia (I feel like the tax coupled with first strike in a red zone based game is going to be quite good)
+1 Cabal Therapy (reusable discard is much better here)

The question really remains what to bring out.

-3 Thoughtseize (again, we're the control deck)

But the question remains, what else? I still want to bring in more control elements to fight their Sweepers. I want to be one step ahead of their sweepers by bringing in Walkers and making their cards MUCH less valuable. For example, looking at this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55937

Their plan against us is likely:

-3 Force of Will
-1 Notion Thief

+1 Path to Exile
+2 Supreme Verdict
+1 Vindicate

and with this list it's:

-2 Liliana
-3 Thoughtseize

+1 EE
+1 Snapcaster
+2 Verdict
+1 Souls


What board plan has been working for you guys for Esper Control or Deathblade? What are your actual in vs. out plans with your respective lists (post them, since just saying +/- without a full list means nothing).

-Matt

[Claymore]

Man I wish I kept better notes. When I played Nolan (1st place, Deathblade) he definitely brought in the Verdict(s) and Vindicate (used to kill Tower). I think I did

+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+ 1 Tower of the Magistrate

-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay or Pulse

I don't remember the games anymore, especially because I have trouble differentiating him and the Esper I went 2-0 against, but Tower did serious work. I never got Sorin down, and the only time I would have would've been game 3 after we ran out of time and I would have won that game (had Souls out)...except he used turn 4 of time to Supreme Verdict and force the draw lol.

When I played against Evan (7th, Lingering Esper) I had the same board plan, except this time I got too far behind by getting mana screwed and he won through the air with Lingering Souls.

The third Esper I played probably had the same sideboard plan, except I was able to overrun with Knights and Goyfs game 2 fairly quickly on the back of Tower of the Magistrate.

Gaddock Teeg was largely an awkward play all day. He stopped Jace and Verdict, but at the same time he was severely stymied by SFM Batterskull, killed by Jitte, or bounced with Karakas. The good thing was that he could be run out to eat up removal fairly easily, but against the typical board state he was just a Grizzly Bear where I would rather have some Fat.

If I was going to do this again with my current deck, I would do:

+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+ 1 Tower of the Magistrate
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor

-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Teeg
-1 Wasteland

The remaining Swords are close to the chopping block to keep Cabal Therapy in, but Vendilion Clique and Bob are still high priority targets. Maybe remove the Sorins?

My list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=725645&highlight=#post725645

With all of my effective removal, it is extremely hard for the Esper player to win with creatures and must win through Jace. Lingering Souls, Sorin, and Maelstrom Pulse along with good quality fat help stop Jace.

[lavafrogg]

I just found a new weekly tourney that started 3 weeks ago. I am playing Wednesday and will report how it goes!!

Nothing has changed in my list since I last posted. Lots of work and lots of starcraft...

[.Ix]

Has anyone tested the Depths-Stage combo yet? I've been goldfishing this list:

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Thoughtseize
2 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg (flex spot)
1 Life from the Loam

It feels really good. Getting the combo out is hilariously easy to do with all the card draw and tutors. It feels a LOT like Time Vault / Voltaic Key, where you naturally find one half of the combo while just doing your thing, and then almost instantly end the game with a tutor. It's very compact and works well with cards that are already good in the deck. It might be possible that 2 Crop Rotation is too much, but it's been alright so far. I could cut one for another Cabal Therapy, I suppose. Crop Rotation is great for finding the Arbor for a Therapy flashback, though.

I wish Marit Lage had trample, but you can't have everything.

[Asthereal]

I believe the Depths combo is worse than Natural Order into Progenitus.
And that is already not strong enough to play in Junk, according to most.

Anyway, I came up with this list:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Knight /16

3 Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
4 StP
3 Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana /21

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Catacombs
3 Flats
2 Heath
4 Wasteland /23

Side:
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith /15

I'm considering to play this list in the upcoming tourney. Any last minute tips?

[.Ix]

Natural Order Progenitus is completely different. It costs 4 Mana, sacrifices a creature before it resolves, takes 5 slots which are otherwise dead, and our Knights can get bigger than 10/10 anyway. Thespian/Depths only takes two slots and costs two mana. You can (or should) really just play normally until you have an opening to tutor it out with Knight or Crop Rotation. If you've played Vintage with Vault/Key you'd know what I meant by this. Also, just having it in the deck means our Knights become Tezzeret the Seekers. I will test this a lot tomorrow.

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone tested the Depths-Stage combo yet? I've been goldfishing this list:

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Thoughtseize
2 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg (flex spot)
1 Life from the Loam

It feels really good. Getting the combo out is hilariously easy to do with all the card draw and tutors. It feels a LOT like Time Vault / Voltaic Key, where you naturally find one half of the combo while just doing your thing, and then almost instantly end the game with a tutor. It's very compact and works well with cards that are already good in the deck. It might be possible that 2 Crop Rotation is too much, but it's been alright so far. I could cut one for another Cabal Therapy, I suppose. Crop Rotation is great for finding the Arbor for a Therapy flashback, though.

I wish Marit Lage had trample, but you can't have everything.

Just an observation, but it looks like you really want to be playing Nic-Fit with an 'oops I win' Stage/Depths combo. Your list seems much more suited to that style of play.

[.Ix]

Why do you think so? I don't know much about nic fit, but I was under the impression that it wants to ramp to get huge threats into play one after the other. I'm not trying to do that.

[lavafrogg]

After some time off I went 2-2 yesterday at a local.

2-1 Reanimator
0-2 Turbo Eldrazi
2-1 Affinity
0-2 Elves

Really not impressive but I had overall bad draws on the day with some nutty top decks from my opponents.

[Mr. Safety]

Why do you think so? I don't know much about nic fit, but I was under the impression that it wants to ramp to get huge threats into play one after the other. I'm not trying to do that.

I misread your list. I thought I saw 4x Cabal Therapy and confused Veteran Explorer with Sylvan Safekeeper. My bad.

[Mirrislegend]

Between DRS, KotR, Lili, and SDT we are fairly vulnerable to Pithing Needle. But so far, all they've ever named is SDT against me (but it was pretty crippling). I think I'm going to turn my 3rd top into 1x Sylvan.

Anyone else have trouble with Needle or Revoker?

[Asthereal]

Nope. Last time I saw a Pithing Needle, it was a Reanimator deck trying to stop Crypt/Relic.
The other decks I encounter never play that stuff. But maybe that's a Dutch meta thing.

[Claymore]

I see a lot of Revokers on Liliana, DRS, and KotR in that order (and Deed out of the side) when up against Death and Taxes. Typically the first hatestick either calls what is on the field already (DRS) or they blind call Liliana. I'm largely not too concerned unless they call on DRS when I'm low on mana resources since we run so much creature kill...although that gets nixed by active Moms. Hence, KotR for Cabal Pit

[.Ix]

Cabal Pit is a really good call. I should try to make space for that in my list. It makes Crop Rotation and Life from the Loam a lot better.

[Mr. Safety]

Just so I know for sure: the targeting from Cabal Pit is colorless, right? So I can kill Mom's with it easily?

[damionblackgear]

Just so I know for sure: the targeting from Cabal Pit is colorless, right? So I can kill Mom's with it easily?

Yes. It is a colorless effect... unless something else gives it a color.

[Petree]

I believe the Depths combo is worse than Natural Order into Progenitus.
And that is already not strong enough to play in Junk, according to most.

Anyway, I came up with this list:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Knight /16

3 Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
4 StP
3 Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana /21

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Catacombs
3 Flats
2 Heath
4 Wasteland /23

Side:
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith /15

I'm considering to play this list in the upcoming tourney. Any last minute tips?


I honestly actually really like some of this list. Souls from the side instead of the main actually doesn't seem bad at all. I mean i would make changes like keeping the Maze main. But the list seems solid.

[sdematt]

I have results to discuss, I've just been super busy with a family member in the hospital.

-Matt

[Claymore]

Sorry to hear that, hope all is well :/.

On Asthereal's list, the main board seems okay, although you may be overdoing it for removal with 4 STP, 3 Lili, 3 AD, 2 MP, and I think the general thread's consensus is to get some Sylvan Libraries to sub in for some Tops. I also feel the lack of utility lands in the main (Maze, Bojuka) hampers the use of Knight for anything than a dumb beater, which you already have in Goyf - although I guess you can just fetch Wastes all day long...

Your sideboard, in my opinion, needs to diversify the combo/control hate. You're going to run headlong into Leyline of Sanctity or Brainstorms to hide key pieces, not to mention Misdirection on your Hymns, which sees play due to Abrupt Decay.

I would suggest

-1 MP
-1 AD
-1 IoK

+3 Hatebear (Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist)

MP and AD get redundant, especially when considering your main board removal suite. I presume MP is to take down Jace, but Lingering Souls helps in that matter as well.

I'd also like to see Golgari Charm, but not sure where to put them. Ideally you'd put Maze/Bojuka in the main to free up the sideboard and toss in 2 Golgari Charm so you can destroy Rest in Peace and Leyline of Sanctity (or Omniscience if you're lucky) as well as have a regen shield for Supreme Verdict against Esper Deathblade and a sweeper for Souls tokens and Goblins.

--

On Thespian Depths - I haven't had much time to test this due to family health issues as well, but I might get some time this week. I think it would go best in a Loam Rock or Devastating Loams deck, but I'm going to try it here. I did get my copies of the cards earlier this week, but CSI sent a non-foil Thespian instead of the Foil that I ordered...

[Lupaine]

I'll be joining our local tournament this weekend. I would like to hear your suggestions about my main deck

Creatures (16)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Non-Creature Spells (21)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (23)
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

I'm including Elspeth because she wins games with her 2nd +1 skill.

[Claymore]

What is your sideboard and do you have an expected meta?

Additional card manipulation in either another Sylvan Library or Sensei's Top would be good, perhaps in place of the 4th Liliana.

[sdematt]

So after some fine testing, and more testing will be required, Esper Deathblade now looks more like a mirror match instead of a control vs. aggro matchup.

With the removal of Lingering Souls from the Esper decks, and a move towards Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant, it's much more of a mirror match, but in UWb instead of BGW. So, we have to see what they gain from being blue where we're green. In terms of parity, we both have:

Deathrite Shaman
Dark Confidant
Swords to Plowshares
Hand Disruption
Possibly Wastelands
Both play 15 creatures


They've got Brainstorm, we've got Sylvan Library.
They have Jace (or a big finisher), we need something like that.

They have Supreme Verdict out of the board, we need something to combat it or something that goes around it.
They might being in Geist, Zealous, Perish, or possibly Sword of Feast and Famine. We need to combat this.

Because this is a mirror match of sorts, they bring out maindeck counters if they have any, and if they don't, hand disruption. Same for us. I was playing and talking with a long, long time Esperblade player and he said that after a few matches, this is what it came down to. It's a total mirror match, except, Jace is a better long game card and Equipment helps win the creature war. Seems good. So we need to either next level them and win the creature war, or cut off certain lines of play.

90% of the Esperblade gameplan can be played under a Gaddock Teeg. This isn't the old Esperblade anymore. Creatures are still just darn good enough to win.

What do we need to do to win? Kill Dark Confidant and SFM on site, prevent Equipment from connect, watch out for sweepers.

I think the suggest for Tower of the Magistrate was a good idea. People aren't expecting it (also, fewer Knights are in the format) and it works wonders. Is it better than Maze of Ith #2 though? I think for this matchup, yes. Nantuko Monastery might be worth considering due to the first strike. Thalia is so good in this matchup because not only the tax effect, but the first strike as well. Finding more creatures with shroud/first strike is probably a good line of play for us. Perhaps Vampire Hexmage? Sounds silly, but keeping a Jace off the board and being a 2/1 First Strike is a thing. I'll be testing her.

I think we need a good finisher against Esper as well. Sorin and Relentless still seem like the best option since giving your guys trample is good, or being able to kill a Jace is also good. Ideally I'd also like to play a card like Pyroclasm so it burns out all their guys (since they're all X/1 or X/2's), whereas all of our guys will stay alive.

Or, crazy suggestion: we bring in our own Jitte. If we're on the assumption all their guys are X/1's, why not hook our own guys up with Equipment and just beat them at the Equipment game? First strike is especially good.

I know, more ranting, but in the Esperblade matchup, is it worth keeping Green Sun's Zenith in? I know it's good, don't get me wrong, but I'm just wondering if it'd be possible to go with a more streamlined plan with less creature tutoring, and just more impactful cards on the board. Not being able to tutor for Knight might be a little poor, but most people aren't even running the package anymore anyway; slimming the package down postboard while squeezing in more X for 1's against the deck seems fine.

So if our sideboard was something like:

2 Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Sorin/Jitte/mirror breaker
3 Extra hand disruption/Hymn/whatever

I'd want to have against Esper: Thalia, Tower, Sorin/Jitte/whatever.

Maybe I'm just rambling nonsense, but in short, I feel like the Esper deck is good because it has Dark Confidant/DRS, but we can be the better deck doing that, so let's go out and fuck them up.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Hi everyone!!!

I haven't played for a long while but yesterday I went to a tournament (around 40 people). Went 2 -2 - drop facing 2 RUG decks (2-0 and 2-1), bug (1-2) and gw maverick (0-1, time issues).

I ran the following list:

3 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy

3 sword to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

1 sylvan lybrary
3 green sun's zenith

4 deathrite shaman
3 stoneforge mystic
3 dark confidant
2 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
3 lingering souls

1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

2 liliana of the veil

3 wasteland
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
3 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 forest
1 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 dryad arbor

sideboard:

1 life from the loam
1 gaddock teeg
1 sigarda, host of herons
3 hymn to tourach
1 bojuka bog
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
2 oblivion ring
2 zealous persecution
2 pernicious deed

overall I liked the feel of the build, stoneforge would help a lot against burn, goblin and rug decks wich arerampant in here (however I only cast it once and it was a win-more). The third zenith made me able to use less lands, i liked it. I missed the top and maybe another piece of hand disruption. If someon could impart suggestions on that list, I'd be really grateful. Another thing, a friend of mine was playing deathblade, and it really felt like a mirror match, except when he cast jace, started brainstorming and won games that were lost to him (we were playing a bit before the tournament). I think that while this list I used presents threats that must be answered right away, it lacks a little bit in the response department...
I also found I can't abuse life from the loam's dredge unless I have sylvan out OR my board position is already far superior. Agaisnt but, my opponent had a shaman and a stalker, I did a blind dredge and dropped stp, teeg and pulse, the three cards I wanted to draw.... :( pretty unlucky.

[sdematt]

Both Sorin and Vampire Hexmage are proactive answers to Jace AND threats on their own. A Planeswalker that poops Lifelinkers and creates Emblems and a First Strike creature that kills Jace seems good to me.

-Matt

[apple713]

Both Sorin and Vampire Hexmage are proactive answers to Jace AND threats on their own. A Planeswalker that poops Lifelinkers and creates Emblems and a First Strike creature that kills Jace seems good to me.

-Matt

if you are running hexmage, it seems like depths is a 1 of toss in cause of knight of the reliquary. I would also imagine that dorin should see play just cause he's big, and can be t2'd with DRS. Hes bigger than batterskull every time which is a + and only maybe 2 of him.

[sdematt]

I agree with the Depths is easily added in, replacing maybe Maze or something, but not so sure about Doran...

-Matt

[sdematt]

I was testing the Vampire Hexmages in place of 1 Ooze and 1 GSZ, and they were really fantastic. The first strike is great, especially with Emblems, and the "kill your Jace/Liliana/Elspeth" factor was pretty nuts. It gives us a ton more game since it's a pre-emptive answer and also a threat, unlike Maelstrom Pulse.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Since there's a lot of burn and aggro decks in my meta (burn worries me more) I don't feel at ease without stoneforge OR hymn to tourach.

So since monday I've been testing this (an alternative to the list I played last saturday):

4 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach

4 swords to powshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

1 sylvan library
1 sensei's divining top

4 deathrite shaman
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 lingering souls

2 liliana of the veil

4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
3 bayou
4 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 forest
1 swamp

sideboard (basically the same)

1 umezawa's jitte
1 life from the loam
2 gerrard's veredict
2 duress
2 oblivion ring
2 zealous persecution
2 pernicious deed
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog

My considerations: even with less lands the manabase of the previous list felt more secure (maybe that turn 1 zenith gives some feeling of safety?), however I was able to win grindy games with souls even without stoneforge. I have less tutoring now (in fact no tutoring at all) without gsz and sfm.
Since the games usually tend to drag, discard is not that terrible in the late game.

Pernicious deed is being a must against most aggro decks (along with zealous) and some random stuff like stax. It also kinda woks good against deathblade.

I still cant make up my mind on either of the 2 lists I posted...

[sdematt]

I think if Burn is a problem, playing more Jittes in the board is never a bad thing. Plus, it puts you in favour against other Equipment decks and midrange mirrors (Deathblade and Jund, etc.).

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

I was testing the Vampire Hexmages in place of 1 Ooze and 1 GSZ, and they were really fantastic. The first strike is great, especially with Emblems, and the "kill your Jace/Liliana/Elspeth" factor was pretty nuts. It gives us a ton more game since it's a pre-emptive answer and also a threat, unlike Maelstrom Pulse.

-Matt

This is interesting...could Hexmage be a replacement for Pithing Needle in my sideboard? I board it in for planeswalkers most of the time, but it does do the occasional extra work against random cards.

On a philosophical note, I've been trying other decks lately and been dissapointed. I realize this is my deck. Nothing is as customizable and fun as this deck for me. I have recently made the switch to Cabal Therapy over Inquisition of Kozilek (because I have 3 maindeck Lingering Souls) and I'm not feeling the Jitte or Knights lately. I'm down to one copy of Knight, and that only because I don't have Goyf #4, and I am picking Batterskull from Mystic 90% of the time, easy. I'm also torn on whether to have the 3rd Liliana in the board, which has been useful in the past.

Current list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Life from the Loam


This Hexmage idea intrigues me, because it can kill planeswalkers while attackign for 2. First strike is gravy. I don't want to go the Crop Rotation into Depths route; I've tried it, it was distracting.

[sdematt]

Vampire Hexmages have been working out VERY well.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Vampire Hexmages have been working out VERY well.

-Matt

Matt, are 2 gsz really enough (you said you cut 1 ooze and 1 gsz for the hexmages)? Would it be the case to abandon the zeniths and add a sixth discard piece or something like that?
I'm asking that because when I finally got to play again a few weeks ago, I even replaced one land for a third copy of zenith (i was playtesting with 2 back then, but flooding a bit), that means, 3 was really good, 2 couldn't make that much of a difference for me. What do you think?

[sdematt]

Matt, are 2 gsz really enough (you said you cut 1 ooze and 1 gsz for the hexmages)? Would it be the case to abandon the zeniths and add a sixth discard piece or something like that?
I'm asking that because when I finally got to play again a few weeks ago, I even replaced one land for a third copy of zenith (i was playtesting with 2 back then, but flooding a bit), that means, 3 was really good, 2 couldn't make that much of a difference for me. What do you think?

I mean, this is just testing. I still saw GSZ in my games even cut down to 2. I may also cut something else to bring GSZ back to 3. However, I feel like Hexmage is a solid proactive plan not only in creature combat with small guys like Confidant and such, but also a preemptive answer to Jace/Liliana.

-Matt

[.Ix]

I've been running 2 GSZ for a while now, and it seems to be enough. I see them a lot because the deck has 4 Confidant 2 Sylvan Library and a whole bunch of ways to stall the game. Hexmage is interesting. I will try them when I can. They should be even better in a deck with Depths. Probably gonna run 2 Hexmage and cut 1 Crop Rotation for it.

[AggroSteve]

i used a hexmage depths list about one and a half year back... it was quite intresting to play with... i often felt that the combo was a bit winmore though, but the hexmages were quite good on their own
he is an answer to out biggest problem,... planeswalker, plus he cost 1 mana less then vindicate/pulse and is a threat

the moment someone suggested hexmages again i was somehow even a bit happy :P because i allways liked them, specially since even thought the general consensus is to play lingering souls i still do not like them

for my next tournament i will try something a bit different though:

i was thinking of a Glissa- Package.

i do have a lot of problems with deck that run punishing fires, and she would not be hit by it. and could be a CA-engine in some way, with EE and Jitte.
Now that jitte got better this could be a viable route as well..... i would just wish that we had a really good Artifact-Creature as well to take advantage of (baleful stix in our colors would be just to awesome)


for the list i will be testing i thought of something like this

23 lands (3 wastelands, 1 karakas, 1 maze of ith, 1-2 horizon canopy, 3 basics, 8 fetches, 5 duals, 0-1 dryad arbor)

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
2 glissa, the traitor

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 seinseis divining top
1 umezawas jitte

4 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy/hymn to tourach/inquisition of kozilek

my problem here is that i allready run 61 cards, but i would really like to get 2 copies of GSZ in there and a dryad arbor... in this way i could still use cabal therapys, if not i probably have to switch to hymn or inquisition
what would you suggest?

SB for this build

3 extirpate (i prefer uncounterability, could also be 1 nihil spellbomb 2 extirpate)
2 gaddock teeg
2 golgari charm
2 pernicious deed (a staple, but with MD EE a possible cut)
3 tidehollow sculler / thalia/ canonist
1 jitte
1 life from the loam

i would love to hear all of your thoughts
the expected meta consists mainly of rug/show and tell variants like hypergenesis and omni/ and some grindy matchups like jund, deathblade, punishing maverick and maybe a goblin-player

thx

[Sughayyer]

@aggro steve

to add gsz and dryad I suggest you take away 1 top, 1 seize and 1 land. Gsz will do a part of top's work (will find a threat/key creature), and 5 discard spells (with 2 being recurring) might be enough. Since you run "infinite" EE (and shaman only makes it better) you COULD cut 1 stp if you like it. But i feel you're not running enough artifacts MD to get the maximum from glissa... Tidehollow main could be a nice thing maybe?

I recently posted 2 lists, on the first one, you can take away the sfm and lingering souls stuff and use the rest as an idea for a core... I liked your idea and will do just that this afternoon

[Sughayyer]

My thoughts on depths were: it's a win-more. We can't protect the combo and if we stop the main strategy to attempt it we can get put far behind if our opponent has an out.
Still can't find nice artifacts to run with glissa...

[Mr. Safety]

My thoughts on depths were: it's a win-more. We can't protect the combo and if we stop the main strategy to attempt it we can get put far behind if our opponent has an out.
Still can't find nice artifacts to run with glissa...

The best I can think of is Engineered Explosives, but I find that playing a mediocre creature (Glissa) for the sake of possibly getting a second use of it is rather weak. With Abrupt Decay, Vindicate, and Maelstrom Pulse pulling their weight so well, I feel it's unneccessary. It's good in esper where they don't have the availability of Deed/Pulse/Decay (althought the deathblade decks are splashing for Decay.) Game plan is the same: make sure your cards are efficient and let Bob draw you more cards than your opponent.

Hexmage is a different story, Jace and Liliana are everywhere (including in our deck, usually.) I find the idea of using Hexmage instead of Pithing Needle really appealing for a few really good reasons:

1) Needle shuts off MY Liliana at the same time if I need to name her. Hexmage just kills theirs, either by attacking into it with another threat or simply popping off the ability for the insta-kill.
2) Hexmage going into the graveyard feeds Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman, which seems relevant considering the go-to removal is Swords to Plowshares, making it hard to get a creature in the yard on occasion.
3) It profitably blocks dorks in tribals (Goblins/Merfolk) and can be one more way to hose Aether Vial
4) At the very least it increases threat density against some decks, ensuring you have fewer dead cards.

Those are reason enough to try Hexmage out in my sideboard, will be trying 2 for now in place of Needles.

[AggroSteve]

I do not think of glissa as a mediocre creature, actually in my opinion she is quite good because against any creature deck she gets us ahead in board presence because our opponent can neither attack or block profitably, and thus she might not even get blocked. Combined with a maze of ith we can start to race an opponent until they find a removalspell
the next thing i like a lot about her is that she can even be saved from removal with a karakas for additional value
and she gives us the option of recurring removal which compared to a jund deck we allways lacked

i think its worth a try... Maybe it proves to be very effective
i was wondering if someone else did allready test glissa..... Some insight from them would be much appreciated

[sdematt]

Played against Deathblade today and it was very interesting. Hexmages were really great, but it's also nice to play games where you draw removal spells (which in two of the games, I saw zero).

The versions with Force are way better, just an FYI. I would have completely stomped all over him if not for some key Force of Wills throughout our games. It's a good deck, but Lingering Souls gives a nice edge, and there were times where had I had a Dark Depth in the deck, I would have won out of nowhere. Dark Depths is essentially a straight swap for Maze of Ith.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i was wondering if the depths combo could even come from the sideboard to surprise the opponent
just tinkering in my mind with the new list i want to try where i could open ups 2 SB-slots because of MD EE


because of this i would need to know in what matchups the combo works best, because i was thinking of replacing my deeds with hexmages in the sideboard against planeswalker but also for the firststrike (in theory they should be very good against esper and deathblade)

actually i think this might be a possible route for this deck to take. out there are a lot of good first-strike creatures (thalia, hexmage, glissa,.....) maybe we could be able to use that to our advantage

[sdematt]

i was wondering if the depths combo could even come from the sideboard to surprise the opponent
just tinkering in my mind with the new list i want to try where i could open ups 2 SB-slots because of MD EE


because of this i would need to know in what matchups the combo works best, because i was thinking of replacing my deeds with hexmages in the sideboard against planeswalker but also for the firststrike (in theory they should be very good against esper and deathblade)

actually i think this might be a possible route for this deck to take. out there are a lot of good first-strike creatures (thalia, hexmage, glissa,.....) maybe we could be able to use that to our advantage

I wouldn't be opposed to just running a team of beaters and value first-strikers to dominate the midrange matchups.

Let's get brewing.

-Matt

[.Ix]

Run Depths, guys. There's very little risk to running Depths / Stage and so much gain. The risk/reward ratio gets even better if you're running some Hexmage. If the opponent can deal with the combo then don't activate copy Depths, big whoop. If the opponent can't deal with it at instant speed, you straight up win the game.

[sdematt]

And even if they STP it, that's cool. Going up 20 life in, say, the Esperblade match is totally fine with me.

This is the list I've been thinking about running:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reqliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vampire Hexmage

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith/Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah

------

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ooze/Cabal Therapy
1 Open/Cabal Therapy

I'd love to fit in a Glissa the Traitor though to help out with bigger creatures that Hexmage can't kill, like even just stalling up the board. I don't care if I don't use the artifact ability: the first strike and Deathtouch is good on its own. It may replace one Souls. I'll try it and see. As you'll notice, the maindeck Pulse is gone, but I don't really miss it. It's one piece of "Jace" removal gone, but I'm okay with that. I already have the Hexmages and the Lingering souls to battle them Jaces.

Board is tweaked to pound the midrange decks and to fight Esperblade and combo. RUG might be a bit tight, but that's okay.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

why no thespian?

You can scryb ranger the knight to do two fetches at the end of opponents turn

[Sughayyer]

I'm still not sold on depths+stage BUT I playtested a few matches with glissa (even w/o artifacts) and it's simply fantastic. Besides being a threat that's not gy-dependant (a thing only possible with sfm) most aggro/midrange opponents go nuts - the even kill it and leave our bob on the field. Of course it needs more testing, but it appears to be very promissing.

[blindspotxxx]

why no thespian?

You can scryb ranger the knight to do two fetches at the end of opponents turn

He has the Vampire Hexmages for the Dark Depths

[KobeBryan]

He has the Vampire Hexmages for the Dark Depths

can't fetch it.

[sdematt]

I'm not super concerned about that. You'd have to play Thespian as a spell, and I don't want to be cutting a spell slot right now. I might try it as Dark Depths since it's only replacing Maze (which comes out in many matchups anyway). I'll let you know how it goes.

-Matt

[.Ix]

I'm not super concerned about that. You'd have to play Thespian as a spell, and I don't want to be cutting a spell slot right now. I might try it as Dark Depths since it's only replacing Maze (which comes out in many matchups anyway). I'll let you know how it goes.

-Matt

I cut a Wasteland (going to 3 Wasteland) for my Thespian's Stage, but that's fine for me because I run 4 KOTR and 1 Crop Rotation. It makes mana so it's not that bad as a land. In your build, I would try -1 Savannah +1 Stage. Without the flexibility of fetching both halves of the combo EOT, I don't think Marit Lage will be as good, but hey, try it anyway.

[sdematt]

So Depths was bad. Not super terrible, but because I'm not fully built around that combo, Dark Depths as part of the combo was worse than Maze of Ith would have been, in general. I never stuck Knight and Hexmage at the same time ever, so it never mattered. The combo is fine if you're building around it, but sliding it in as a nice "got you!" never worked out. Depths will be cut for Maze again.

Glissa was VERY solid in the creature matchups. Against Jund, it just wrecked the board. In Miracles, it was nice against Cliques (don't want to attack with Teegs into surprise Clique blockers and doesn't die to RIP), etc. In the matchups it's bad in, it's still as bad as Lingering Souls. The only difference is Souls is better against walkers, Moat, and Humility. Otherwise, very solid and would run again.

3 GSZ is still where I want to be.

I didn't miss the 1 Maelstrom Pulse I cut. It's fine.

3 Souls was fine. I like 4, but 3 was also okay.

Golgari Charm taking out 10 Goblins on turn 2 was a nice play of the day.

Hexmage pulled her weight in keeping Jaces off the table and first striking in combat, killing Lilianas, etc.

I placed 3rd to win a Badlands, losing only to TES in game 3 by getting manascrewed. This is the list I played:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reqliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vampire Hexmage
1 Glissa

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah

------

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ooze
1 Cabal Therapy

-Matt

[.Ix]

So Depths was bad. Not super terrible, but because I'm not fully built around that combo, Dark Depths as part of the combo was worse than Maze of Ith would have been, in general. I never stuck Knight and Hexmage at the same time ever, so it never mattered. The combo is fine if you're building around it, but sliding it in as a nice "got you!" never worked out. Depths will be cut for Maze again.


Well, you didn't really run the combo in the first place.

edit:
By "the combo", I meant Stage/Depths, which is really different from hex/depths.

[Mr. Safety]

So Depths was bad. Not super terrible, but because I'm not fully built around that combo, Dark Depths as part of the combo was worse than Maze of Ith would have been, in general. I never stuck Knight and Hexmage at the same time ever, so it never mattered. The combo is fine if you're building around it, but sliding it in as a nice "got you!" never worked out. Depths will be cut for Maze again.

Glissa was VERY solid in the creature matchups. Against Jund, it just wrecked the board. In Miracles, it was nice against Cliques (don't want to attack with Teegs into surprise Clique blockers and doesn't die to RIP), etc. In the matchups it's bad in, it's still as bad as Lingering Souls. The only difference is Souls is better against walkers, Moat, and Humility. Otherwise, very solid and would run again.

3 GSZ is still where I want to be.

I didn't miss the 1 Maelstrom Pulse I cut. It's fine.

3 Souls was fine. I like 4, but 3 was also okay.

Golgari Charm taking out 10 Goblins on turn 2 was a nice play of the day.

Hexmage pulled her weight in keeping Jaces off the table and first striking in combat, killing Lilianas, etc.

I placed 3rd to win a Badlands, losing only to TES in game 3 by getting manascrewed. This is the list I played:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reqliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vampire Hexmage
1 Glissa

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah

------

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ooze
1 Cabal Therapy

-Matt

What are you recurring with Glissa, nothing? So she's just a 3/3 first striker for 3 mana? I find that hard to justify, even as a singleton. If you were doing Engineered Explosives, I would be ready to test her. With nothing, I'm not sold.

EDIT: I forgot she had deathtouch as well. Definately better, but I think not using EE is somewhat of a missed opportunity.

[Claymore]

Gibs Batterskull, opposing Goyfs, even Jitte carrying non-fliers. I can see her benefit in a creature heavy meta.

Other than the part where an engine with Explosives (or hell even Executioner's Capsule, hello anti-Emrakul lock) could have put in work, how many times would you have seen her ability be used?

Also, she does get pretty sweet with equipment that gets killed or creatures like Tidehollow Sculler and Ethersworn Canonist. Especially Sculler.

She also gets stronger with a Loam engine in the deck to fill your 'yard with tasty treats. This could be a decent way to get aboard the Thespian Depths train since the combo gets immensely better once you start recurring the pieces for when Marit Lage gets STP'd.

[sdematt]

Gibs Batterskull, opposing Goyfs, even Jitte carrying non-fliers. I can see her benefit in a creature heavy meta.

Other than the part where an engine with Explosives (or hell even Executioner's Capsule, hello anti-Emrakul lock) could have put in work, how many times would you have seen her ability be used?

Also, she does get pretty sweet with equipment that gets killed or creatures like Tidehollow Sculler and Ethersworn Canonist. Especially Sculler.

She also gets stronger with a Loam engine in the deck to fill your 'yard with tasty treats. This could be a decent way to get aboard the Thespian Depths train since the combo gets immensely better once you start recurring the pieces for when Marit Lage gets STP'd.

A 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch in combat is insane. I killed creatures only about 4 times since most of the time, Glissa went unblocked. Most players just start taking 3 and digging for removal unless I'm attacking a Planeswalker (in which case, Deathrite usually takes a trip under the bus).

As a one-of I think she's fine as-is, I think you could run a build around her, but Capsule doesn't kill Deathrite nor Dark Confidant (but EE does). I think if you were playing a build with her, running EE would be just fine. I mean, if you cut the Hexmages and added in Glissa (so 2-3 Glissa total), you could then run 2-3 EE and really start going to town. I'd also run 2 Jitte with her, so when the new rules changes come around, you've got something to get back Jitte when they start packing more real removal to kill it.


By "the combo", I meant Stage/Depths, which is really different from hex/depths.

Of course, I just wanted to try it and see. It didn't help this time around, but it didn't REALLY hinder me either. Again, I think running this combo is fine but you must be running 4 Knights and some number of Crop Rotation to make this work. I feel like Hexmages in a Thespian Depths build would not only be good as a backup way to start the combo, but also just great in creature combat/anti-Jace. Even if this test didn't work for me specifically, perhaps it's something you should look into.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

She's Ophidi-Crypt with a Nihil Spellbomb running around.

[sdematt]

This is also true.

-Matt

[.Ix]

Oh definitely, I think Hexmage is a very good call and I will be running at least 2 when I get them. Come to think of it, it should be very obvious in a deck with Dark Depths / Stage but I never even considered it until you mentioned killing Jaces and Lilis. The build I would run is actually almost identical to yours, Matt. The only differences are -3 Goyf -1 Glissa -1 Library -1 Decay +1 Swords +1 Crop Rotation +1 Knight +1 Ooze +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg and some manabase differences including a Thespian's Stage.

Edit:
I was responding to Matt's previous post.

Also, Glissa + Blazing Torch = colorless Punishing Fire.

[Sughayyer]

@matt

the list you posted is the same one I playtested this week (only I ran 4 stp and 3 decay, 6 discard spells, and liliana instead of hexmages). I brought kitchen finks from the side to help against burn (zenith makes it much more feasible). As I said on my last post, the opponents get so crazy about glissa they stop caring about knights and bobs. And active knight=immortal glissa since karakas is there so save her. All in all I'm pretty confortable with the deck.

[sdematt]

@matt

the list you posted is the same one I playtested this week (only I ran 4 stp and 3 decay, 6 discard spells, and liliana instead of hexmages). I brought kitchen finks from the side to help against burn (zenith makes it much more feasible). As I said on my last post, the opponents get so crazy about glissa they stop caring about knights and bobs. And active knight=immortal glissa since karakas is there so save her. All in all I'm pretty confortable with the deck.

I totally forgot Glissa was a legend. Go go Karakas!

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I played the glissa/artifact route a while back. Glissa plus EE is dumb against most of the format especially with he possible Karakas to back her up. She is easily GSZ able and stalls the ground while Lilliana/deathrite do work. I was a huge fan back when I tried her.

She was a reason I was justifying the strength or BWG rock.

[.Ix]

I played the glissa/artifact route a while back. Glissa plus EE is dumb against most of the format especially with he possible Karakas to back her up. She is easily GSZ able and stalls the ground while Lilliana/deathrite do work. I was a huge fan back when I tried her.

She was a reason I was justifying the strength or BWG rock.

How many EE did you run for that to work consistently? EE is pretty good in this deck, and recurring it can be backbreaking. Why did you stop running Glissa? I really want to try running her but I don't have any right now. :(

[Sughayyer]

"glissa+blazing torch = colorless punishing fire" (this phone's browser is not letting me to use proper quotes)

this, or moonglove extract. The first one requires 2 mana and tapping acreature (and most of our creatures have a hard time sticking on the field and already do nice things by themselves) and can be fetched by sfm.
The second one costs 3 mana, works alone, can't be fetched, but is a colorless source of damage (blazing can't get past protection because it's an "equipped creature has....." kind of ability)


EDIT:

Actually ditch that. For 2 mana (or less) we have abrupt decay or swords to plowshares, wich doesn't cost tapping a creature.
For 3 mana we have lingering souls.
We don't need infinite recursion or drawing a ton of cards. We simply have cards that outclass most of the other classes in the format, any attempt of going "infinite" in a the rock shell will be very clumsy and unoptimal. Bg loam, Nic Fit and Jund can already "go infinite" in a better way than us, but none can end the game as fast as us - or stall as long as we can if need be (except maybe bg loam)

[.Ix]

"glissa+blazing torch = colorless punishing fire" (this phone's browser is not letting me to use proper quotes)

this, or moonglove extract. The first one requires 2 mana and tapping acreature (and most of our creatures have a hard time sticking on the field and already do nice things by themselves) and can be fetched by sfm.
The second one costs 3 mana, works alone, can't be fetched, but is a colorless source of damage (blazing can't get past protection because it's an "equipped creature has....." kind of ability)


EDIT:

Actually ditch that. For 2 mana (or less) we have abrupt decay or swords to plowshares, wich doesn't cost tapping a creature.
For 3 mana we have lingering souls.
We don't need infinite recursion or drawing a ton of cards. We simply have cards that outclass most of the other classes in the format, any attempt of going "infinite" in a the rock shell will be very clumsy and unoptimal. Bg loam, Nic Fit and Jund can already "go infinite" in a better way than us, but none can end the game as fast as us - or stall as long as we can if need be (except maybe bg loam)

Yeah there's no real need for Punishing Fire style cards. EE Recursion would be really good however. We can only really deal with 1-2 threats per turn, and it's not easy to beat a deck that puts out more than that. EE would help tremendously.

[sdematt]

Found this list on TC decks:


1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [8]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [15]
3 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [23]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Oblivion Ring


Maindeck is 63 cards, but still doesn't seem too bad. I dislike the lack of manipulation, but it just jams very good control elements in the metagame. Obstinate provides life and is good against other discard, Thrun evades everything. Hymn, Thoughtseize are backbreaking discard, and Liliana is mitigated by Lingering Souls. The sideboard seems to be against Planeswalkers a ton, but I feel like you're already really good against them anyway.

Just thought I'd point that out.

So I think if people are wanting to move in a Glissa direction (or at least, a more artifact oriented direction), I think something like this could be good:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Glissa
17

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
15

3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library
6

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
23

If you choose to cut GSZ from my list, a piece of hand disruption, and the Hexmages, you have room for 2 Jitte, 3 EE, and an extra pair of Glissas. You're a bit heavy on the 3-drops for my liking, but you're running Jitte to attach to Glissa (since Jitte battles will be super intense in the future I predict). You have recurring EE if you need to, as well. Very likely the list is worse in the unfair matchups but incredible good in the fair ones. EE is great against Delver decks, and Jitte is good against the rest of the midrange piles.

In combat, First Strike + Jitte means Glissa can attack/block a guy, kill it, then muck another guy with the Jitte counters. Seems sweet.

-Matt

[Zeph]

With having Glissa and EE main, would there still be a need for pernicious deed? I'm thinking they almost do the same thing except deed is more flexible, but only a one time use.

I'm really excited to try out this build that includes Glissa, seems like a boss against any creature oriented decks.

[sdematt]

I think if you're running 2 EE main, then 2 Deed in the board may be overkill unless you're facing a ton of Affinity. This would open up slots for grave hate and/or combo.

-Matt

[blindspotxxx]

I'm very curious as to why this deck isn't a DTB. It can be built like Deathblade and has Maverick's hate bears? What's preventing this deck from dominating? Combo?

[sdematt]

Good players, luck, and the fact it doesn't have blue. The duals aren't used in many other decks, it's a high skill level deck to play well, and it's quite expensive.

I think if enough people were actually playing it, you'd see way more Top 8's.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I'm itching to try stoneforge + glissa but I'm not sure of what to cut, really. Would it be wise to skip tarmogoyves?

[syfilisx]

I feel like Goyf is not needed, I play only two + two mystics. Could play 4 goyf, but want to diversify my threats.

[lavafrogg]

I'm very curious as to why this deck isn't a DTB. It can be built like Deathblade and has Maverick's hate bears? What's preventing this deck from dominating? Combo?

Short answer: it does not play a broken one cc instant.

Long answer: rock decks have many iterations and the red and blue versions are more popular at the moment. Blue versions get jace and brainstorm while the red versions get lightning bolt and blood braid elf. While white gives us swords and knight of the reliquary the other colors have better and more versatile card advantage and selection in addition to the cards that the BG color offers.

Playing white can leave us on the back foot in many matchups but when built and played properly, correct bears and white cards, the deck can roll with the best of them.

[AggroSteve]

i am really positively surprised how lively this thread has gotten over the last few days i was off...... last thing i remembered was me posting a sample list on how i would use glissa in a rock shell.....

after 4 days i am like :eek: :eek: :eek:

i had to read 2 whole pages of posts :laugh:

either way, i am very happy some picked up this thought and maybe this fabulous deck will see more play again
sadly i did not get to test the glissa list this week because i got ill on my trip, and was in bed for 3 days,.... well shit happens

that said, i am really looking forward to hearing on everyone testings with glissa
sdmatt allready tested it and found the same thing as myself..... in the creaturematchups she ROCKs

as allready mentioned if you are using glissa and maybe some EE main the need for Deed in the sideboard is not anymore.... in my case it opens up 2 slots.... my question is how i should use them


MD: no Lingering souls

2 glissa
2 GSZ
2 EE
1 Jitte
2 divining tops
2 liliana of the veil
rest is a standard rock shell

SB

fixed slots: 9

2-3 extirpate ( + 0-1 nihil spellbomb)
1 life from the loam
1 jitte
2 golgari charm
2 gaddock teeg

open slots: 6

2 (formerly deed)
3 hatebears
1 unknown

my question is what i should use in these 6 slots depending on the various metas (tempo, aggro-midrange, controll, aggro-controll, storm, show&tell variants)

possible hatebears are the following

tidehollow sculler (additional handdisruption + artifact creature)
Thalia (first striker, legendary, slows opponents more then us)
ethersworn canonist ( artifact creature, disrupts elves, storm, and also snapcaster)
phyrexian revoker ( artifact creature, needle on legs for walkers, LED, sneak attack, equipment, other bothersome stuff)
vampire hexmage ( first striker, planeswalkers worst nightmare :P and allways comes down before a walker)
more teegs
scavenging ooze
any other suggestions???

right now i really do not know what to use, specially if i do not want to use lingering souls (STILL do not like them)

thanks guys for all the awesome talk in this thread lately and for all your help and feedback

[JanoschEausH]

I tried Glissa as a two-off and found her hard to cast sometimes. Wasteland and Karakas are not her friend. She also requires you to have double green pretty early. She is a house in creature matchups, but her recurring ability seemed not too overwhelming, because Explosives would hit myself pretty hard, too.

[Sughayyer]

I tried Glissa as a two-off and found her hard to cast sometimes. Wasteland and Karakas are not her friend. She also requires you to have double green pretty early. She is a house in creature matchups, but her recurring ability seemed not too overwhelming, because Explosives would hit myself pretty hard, too.

I don't think glissa works in anything but as a 1-of in a gsz package.
And up till now it's being great. It's just a matter of when you are going to cast her, that's one benefit of the zenith pack.
I don't see explosives hurting a the rock deck since we primarily win via disruption ans (usually) 1 or 2 threats beating face. Plus explosives are selective in their removal, unlike pernicious deeds.
On 2 more related notes: we must not fear wasteland. Don't forget that it is delaying our opponents as well as us. Also, I tested the gsz pack with glissa + sfm pack and I had to forfeit it. Next week I'll be trying a different list and I'll let you know my findings.

[sdematt]

Glissa last night was a little bit disappointing, and at times when I was GSZ on 3, I was getting Knight. I don't think she's bad at all, I think there's metas where you want her, and others where you don't. I think to fully maximize her usefulness you would want to be running 2-3 Glissa, some GSZ, 2 Executioner's Capsule, 2 EE, and Crypt/Nihil Spellbombs in the board, and maybe even some Jittes.

I'm going to a tournament on Sunday, so I'll see if I end up playing her or the Ooze.

-Matt

[Amon Amarth]

Good players, luck, and the fact it doesn't have blue. The duals aren't used in many other decks, it's a high skill level deck to play well, and it's quite expensive.

I think if enough people were actually playing it, you'd see way more Top 8's.

-Matt

I think that this is certainly a very reasonable deck to play at a tournament and expect to win. Really, there are two major things that I think of whenever this question comes up.

1. The erroneous belief that only blue decks are good and are the only ones that win tournaments.

2. Legacy has a whole bunch of archetypes. The number is so large that it is impossible to prepare for all of them. Some of them are fringe strategies, others just house cards that are too expensive for the deck to be adopted widely. Still, they can still smash through unprepared opponents: Etched Champion does some work against inbred blue decks. The sheer number of playable decks is what attracts people to Legacy, there are a lot of reasonable decks and probably some from Magic's yesteryear that some players love. They play and tune these decks forever. You only need look around the threads on this site to see this phenomenon in action. People aren't going to pick up and play a different deck than they're already playing, the one they already love. Coupled with the fact that Legacy is an expensive format to start switching up decks and you have the situation we're in right now.

[Sughayyer]

We can only respect the words of someone who goes by Amon Amarth :tongue:

Also, matt:
On the glissa issue you are right, that´s what I meant on my last post - the gsz package lets you choose wich creature suits you best in each situation, and it´s good to have 1 glissa arount to be fetched if needed. I tried to createa the rock deck based on her, and didn´t like it, however as a means of stalling and beating face unpunished, I found her pretty good.
I ran on a few decks with chalice maindeck, so I´m also throwing a qasali on the board. I´ll test it all during this week.

[ryn ball_2]

Found this list on TC decks:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [8]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [15]
3 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [23]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Oblivion Ring


Maindeck is 63 cards, but still doesn't seem too bad. I dislike the lack of manipulation, but it just jams very good control elements in the metagame. Obstinate provides life and is good against other discard, Thrun evades everything. Hymn, Thoughtseize are backbreaking discard, and Liliana is mitigated by Lingering Souls. The sideboard seems to be against Planeswalkers a ton, but I feel like you're already really good against them anyway.

Just thought I'd point that out.

So I think if people are wanting to move in a Glissa direction (or at least, a more artifact oriented direction), I think something like this could be good:

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Glissa
17

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
15

3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library
6

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
23

If you choose to cut GSZ from my list, a piece of hand disruption, and the Hexmages, you have room for 2 Jitte, 3 EE, and an extra pair of Glissas. You're a bit heavy on the 3-drops for my liking, but you're running Jitte to attach to Glissa (since Jitte battles will be super intense in the future I predict). You have recurring EE if you need to, as well. Very likely the list is worse in the unfair matchups but incredible good in the fair ones. EE is great against Delver decks, and Jitte is good against the rest of the midrange piles.

In combat, First Strike + Jitte means Glissa can attack/block a guy, kill it, then muck another guy with the Jitte counters. Seems sweet.

-Matt


Hello matt, due to busy times, plus I'm back in speed cubing (3x3x3) I failed to post here, btw that is my deck I used in our recent major legacy tourney with an error in posting in the council my deck doesn't have 3 lingering souls to have a 60 cards MD. The SB is kinda anticipated in our meta, lots of Snt variants, ANT, midrange decks, UW(x) variants. To complete my post here's my tourney report:

R1 vs RUG delver: 2-0
R2 vs omnitell: 2-1
R3 vs punishing nic fit: draw
R4 vs punishing mavs: draw
R5 vs dark mavs: draw
R6 vs RUG delver: 2-0
R7 vs UWb stoneblade: 2-0

I hate myself pushing my matches against fair decks it is very grindy plus I dont have some cards to break the stalemate like planeswalker (elspeth, sorin. etc) deeds is not enough.

On the topic seem's everybody is using glissa which is decent creature I might try using her also but totally rebuild a new list from the one I was using. And also people talking here about dark depths unfortunately I gave away my DD package (DD+hexmage+marit lage token)

[Zeph]

Hey guys,

I was testing with a bunch of people today with the new glissa build and I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. This is the first time that I got to try her since everyone's been talking about it because I've been so busy with work and other commitments. I got to play against junkblade (more like dead guy with green, but it's pretty heavy green I'd say), Maverick, deathblade and merfolk.

This is the list I ran today just for playtesting:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor 23

1 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf 15

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered Explosives 22

SB:

1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

I know the SB looks a little messy and I still plan on ironing it out. I'm probably going to cut a lingering souls from the main to add the 3rd gsz back to main. However, lingering souls is just -so- good against planeswalkers. At first I thought playing LS without equipment was really bad but in testing they are obsoletely amazing. Then I'd also cut Glissa from the board because I found her to be pretty good as a one-of. I don't know if it's because I play her late but whenever I resolve her she barely leaves the field because they've already blown all their stps and decays on my bobs/goyfs/knights. I think she's a pretty good trump card.

With the 2 extra slots, I'd probably want 2 humilities so I can combat snt. I don't have humilities in the first place is because my meta doesn't really play snt (thankfully) but it's always good to be prepared.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can improve my board? Or if I should go 2 LS and 3 gsz / or / 3 LS and 2 gsz. I'm just trying to cover all the basis so lemme know if I missed anything. Thanks!

[Sughayyer]

Hey guys,

I was testing with a bunch of people today with the new glissa build and I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. This is the first time that I got to try her since everyone's been talking about it because I've been so busy with work and other commitments. I got to play against junkblade (more like dead guy with green, but it's pretty heavy green I'd say), Maverick, deathblade and merfolk.

This is the list I ran today just for playtesting:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor 23

1 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf 15

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered Explosives 22

SB:

1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

I know the SB looks a little messy and I still plan on ironing it out. I'm probably going to cut a lingering souls from the main to add the 3rd gsz back to main. However, lingering souls is just -so- good against planeswalkers. At first I thought playing LS without equipment was really bad but in testing they are obsoletely amazing. Then I'd also cut Glissa from the board because I found her to be pretty good as a one-of. I don't know if it's because I play her late but whenever I resolve her she barely leaves the field because they've already blown all their stps and decays on my bobs/goyfs/knights. I think she's a pretty good trump card.

With the 2 extra slots, I'd probably want 2 humilities so I can combat snt. I don't have humilities in the first place is because my meta doesn't really play snt (thankfully) but it's always good to be prepared.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can improve my board? Or if I should go 2 LS and 3 gsz / or / 3 LS and 2 gsz. I'm just trying to cover all the basis so lemme know if I missed anything. Thanks!

I think humility hurts you pretty bad and maybe the card you would want against s&t is oblivion ring.
Also with 2 explosives main, I would easily cut the golgari charms.
With discard and teeg, do you need the thalias?
Why are the walkers on the sideboard? In wich maches would you bring them?

[Zeph]

I think humility hurts you pretty bad and maybe the card you would want against s&t is oblivion ring.
Also with 2 explosives main, I would easily cut the golgari charms.
With discard and teeg, do you need the thalias?
Why are the walkers on the sideboard? In wich maches would you bring them?

I haven't tried oblivion ring nor humility against snt (don't know anyone that pilots that deck) so I'll definitely look into both options.

My reasoning for golgari charms is to be able to put them in against aggro decks (like elves and goblins) because ee is too slow to keep up with them. Also, the enchantment removal can be useful in certain MU if you have nothing else to bring in. Also, the regeneration clause was surprisingly useful when I wiped the field of 2 drops with ee while keeping my goyf and bob alive :D

Since I only have 5 targeted discard in the main (3 seizes and 2 cabals), I think that it's necessary for me to have thalias because my deck's configuration is fairly weak to combo decks. Not to mention thalia's are also a house against esper stoneblade / deathblade / miracle variants.

The 2 sorins are in the side for the grindy match ups because I don't want them to clog up my main. Sorins are just so good against decks like stoneblade and miracles because against stoneblade he can effectively protect himself from ground beats but clique would still be able to get through. Against miracles they just have no way of dealing with a resolved walker unless they draw the one-of clique and/or venser... or miracle for x amount. -_-

[AggroSteve]

@ zeph:

your list is pretty much the same as mine now :D (well aside of my 2 lilianas MD)

i tested the list sdmatt suggested on the all-in take on glissa and it was horrible.... most of the time i was not able to cast any of my 3 glissas, so i came to the conclusion that glissa is only playable in a GSZ shell, and in a GSZ shell we only need her as a 1-off.
in that shell she is quite good, allthough i use MD jitte and SB EE, but either way she either is removed very fast, and leaves bob or knight alive or she rolls over the whole board alone if the opponent blew his removal for anything else.

i also tried some other cards in the sideboard lately

one of the being phyrexian revoker, and he is actually quite awesome, really i was surprised on how much impact he had on the board everytime i landed him.
negating LED, Batterskulls (partly), opposing jitte, sneak attack, planeswalker, and whatever else you want him to screw with

reguarding the sideboard, i would never ever leave my house again without those golgari charms, they are awesome, and i would never suggest cutting them

but i am curious why u use a second glissa in your sideboard, what is your reasoning about that?

[Zeph]

@ zeph:

your list is pretty much the same as mine now :D (well aside of my 2 lilianas MD)

i tested the list sdmatt suggested on the all-in take on glissa and it was horrible.... most of the time i was not able to cast any of my 3 glissas, so i came to the conclusion that glissa is only playable in a GSZ shell, and in a GSZ shell we only need her as a 1-off.
in that shell she is quite good, allthough i use MD jitte and SB EE, but either way she either is removed very fast, and leaves bob or knight alive or she rolls over the whole board alone if the opponent blew his removal for anything else.

i also tried some other cards in the sideboard lately

one of the being phyrexian revoker, and he is actually quite awesome, really i was surprised on how much impact he had on the board everytime i landed him.
negating LED, Batterskulls (partly), opposing jitte, sneak attack, planeswalker, and whatever else you want him to screw with

reguarding the sideboard, i would never ever leave my house again without those golgari charms, they are awesome, and i would never suggest cutting them

but i am curious why u use a second glissa in your sideboard, what is your reasoning about that?

Revoker is a great card and the it does catch all everything including LED (which is great for us) but I'm always squeamish about playing it cause we're already so creature heavy, so it's prolly not going to stay on the field long. I used to run pithing needle cause it hits everything that revoker hits, less LED and it's more 'resilient' in a sense that it doesn't die to creature removal. If i was running jittes MD I would probably want revoker though just as another body to carry it if worse comes to worse.

I agree completely with golgari charm, the card is just too insane.

The reasoning behind my 1 of glissa and 1 gsz was just to test her in matches. I wanted to draw her/gsz for her more frequently and if the first one ate removal I'd have another. From yesterday's testing I can come to the same conclusion as you. In a gsz build she's only good as a one-of tutorable creature (similar to ooze) because having multiples in your just makes you feel bad about yourself. Also, her artifact recurring ability is not that relevant and I see it has more of a bonus on top of the 3 mana you're paying for first strike and deathtouch. There's really no point in building artifacts around her cause then you're just going to dilute the deck too much. I was able to recur EE twice to wipe the board of 2 drops and 3 drops, while bouncing glissa with my own karakas against mav though. :D It felt pretty good.

Anyways, to summarize the 1 glissa and 1 gsz were just flex spots that I wanted to take out and try (usually they'd be humilities but I'm looking into other options as well on what to board in against sneak and show)

[sdematt]

@ zeph:

your list is pretty much the same as mine now :D (well aside of my 2 lilianas MD)

i tested the list sdmatt suggested on the all-in take on glissa and it was horrible.... most of the time i was not able to cast any of my 3 glissas, so i came to the conclusion that glissa is only playable in a GSZ shell, and in a GSZ shell we only need her as a 1-off.
in that shell she is quite good, allthough i use MD jitte and SB EE, but either way she either is removed very fast, and leaves bob or knight alive or she rolls over the whole board alone if the opponent blew his removal for anything else.

i also tried some other cards in the sideboard lately

one of the being phyrexian revoker, and he is actually quite awesome, really i was surprised on how much impact he had on the board everytime i landed him.
negating LED, Batterskulls (partly), opposing jitte, sneak attack, planeswalker, and whatever else you want him to screw with

reguarding the sideboard, i would never ever leave my house again without those golgari charms, they are awesome, and i would never suggest cutting them

but i am curious why u use a second glissa in your sideboard, what is your reasoning about that?

I got Revoker'd quite a bit this weekend, and it wasn't fun for me. They seem to always pick Deathrite or Knight, which isn't fun.

I went 4-3 in a 72 man tournament, losing to Combo Elves' nut-draw with Craterhoof twice (double discard their Natural Order, he rips the third...); lost in 2 to Death and Taxes with me drawing crap game 1 and him having triple Mirran Crusader game 2 after a Cataclysm; and the third loss was to Aluren when I just didn't draw one of my 7 cards to bring in. I won against BW tokens, Deathblade, and BW Stoneblade.

Suffice to say, Deed was very good in my matches when I drew it. Charm was also very handy. Tower of the Magistrate was MVP against all the blade variants. Vampire Hexmage was also EXCELLENT due to the first strike and blowing out Jaces (and one time, an Aether Vial at a critical point). The Ooze in the main was good when I needed it, and Glissa would have be fine if I would have gotten it the same time as Ooze (except Ooze shined in the Aluren match).

Overall, I liked my board as well. Has game against most of the format. I haven't tried Revokers in my board in a while. It might be worth testing again. The only thing I don't like is the fact it's a 2/1 that's pretty fragile.

My sideboard:

2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Golgari charm
2 Pernicious Deed

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

what were your expieriences with canonist?

canonist woud have been the next hatebear i wanted to test out, because it helps in the combomatchups (including elves) and even in the stoneblade and esperblade mathup, preventing them from gaining CA from a snapcaster which is huge

at the moment i am torn between EE and Deed in the board simply because i want that one-off glissa to gain as much value as possible, but probably i should stick with Deed as it has a bigger impact then EE

what are your thoughts on it?

[Zeph]

I wish I had deeds to test :( I can never find them in my local area...

Pernicious deed seems much more flexible than engineered explosives since you can just keep it there and not have it set at a certain cmc cost. That kinda keeps the opponent guessing on what you're going to do it with it. EE on the other hand is more restrictive cause you can't change the cmc of the targets, but it can be casted off of wastelands (if that matters). EE can also be recurred with glissa. I think if decks are running glissa then it'd be good to have at least 1 EE somewhere in the 75. If the deck isn't running glissa it's probably better to run deed.

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys, I'm just sharing the list I tested this week as I said I would.

discards:

4 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach


removals:

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay



threats:

4 deathrite shaman
3 dark confidant
2 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
1 glissa, the traitor
3 lingering souls


card selection:

3 green sun's zenith
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library


planeswalkers:

2 liliana of the veil


lands:

1 forest
1 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
2 bayou
3 scrublands
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland


sideboard:

3 pernicious deed
2 life from the loam
1 gaddok teeg
1 kitchen finks
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
2 oblivion ring
2 duress


Hymns were great, and I'm thorn between hymns and therapies. I also miss a third goyf.
Glissa is a nice non-gy-based creature with a relevant set of abilities, so I think I can keep her even without artifacts that can be recurred.
As I also said before, I tested it with stoneforge, but although she does generate card advantage and helps stabilizing the board, it forces the manabase even more (This deck needs double black, and now is craving for more green, I can´t let it too much white-dependent).

I had nice matches against combo, because that enormous amount of discard + teeg was enough give an upper hand. Against burn, an abundant deck in this meta, hymns were cool until the cavalry (finks and big beaters) came, but it is not too favorable. I wanted to add jittes on the board, but I can't make space.

Sigarda is in there because IF i ever get to a bug hard control or a jund match-up, she will win the game for me nicely.

Lingering souls have been great up till now.

I still don't miss the pulse. What decay doesn't take away, o-ring does, and for tokens, etc i can count on deed.

I added the second life from the loam just in case... in the matches I want loam I do so desperately.

canadian and bug tempo are still favorable matches with gsz, shaman and loam (canadian is very favorable, team america not so much). bug shardless seems harder.

I hope this info is helpful and I'm accepting suggestions as always!

[sdematt]

Hi guys, I'm just sharing the list I tested this week as I said I would.

discards:

4 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach


removals:

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay



threats:

4 deathrite shaman
3 dark confidant
2 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
1 glissa, the traitor
3 lingering souls


card selection:

3 green sun's zenith
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library


planeswalkers:

2 liliana of the veil


lands:

1 forest
1 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
2 bayou
3 scrublands
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland


sideboard:

3 pernicious deed
2 life from the loam
1 gaddok teeg
1 kitchen finks
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
2 oblivion ring
2 duress


Hymns were great, and I'm thorn between hymns and therapies. I also miss a third goyf.
Glissa is a nice non-gy-based creature with a relevant set of abilities, so I think I can keep her even without artifacts that can be recurred.
As I also said before, I tested it with stoneforge, but although she does generate card advantage and helps stabilizing the board, it forces the manabase even more (This deck needs double black, and now is craving for more green, I can´t let it too much white-dependent).

I had nice matches against combo, because that enormous amount of discard + teeg was enough give an upper hand. Against burn, an abundant deck in this meta, hymns were cool until the cavalry (finks and big beaters) came, but it is not too favorable. I wanted to add jittes on the board, but I can't make space.

Sigarda is in there because IF i ever get to a bug hard control or a jund match-up, she will win the game for me nicely.

Lingering souls have been great up till now.

I still don't miss the pulse. What decay doesn't take away, o-ring does, and for tokens, etc i can count on deed.

I added the second life from the loam just in case... in the matches I want loam I do so desperately.

canadian and bug tempo are still favorable matches with gsz, shaman and loam (canadian is very favorable, team america not so much). bug shardless seems harder.

I hope this info is helpful and I'm accepting suggestions as always!

I feel like going to 61 and running the full set of Confidants is where you want to be.

Otherwise, looks good :)

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I hear so many different things that I don't even know if my calculations are correct. Statistically speaking, what is the difference if I decided to go 61 with the full playset of bob? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, and if the difference is small, it looks very appealing...

[thecrav]

This isn't all the math involved, but consider that 1/60 = 0.0167 and 1/61 = 0.0163 - the difference is extremely negligible, especially considering that you're talking about a card that allows you to draw extra cards.

[sdematt]

The math is there. I've run 61 cards forever and it's been fine.

-Matt

[Griselpuff]

The math is there. I've run 61 cards forever and it's been fine.

-Matt

That's why you've only Top 8'd one Open.

hi Canada

[ZeinVoncy]

That's why you've only Top 8'd one Open.

hi Canada

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it two?

[damionblackgear]

There's little noticeable difference outside of either being a more "adaptable" list(61/62) or more "streamlined"(60).

[sdematt]

That's why you've only Top 8'd one Open.

hi Canada

Oh Bob, you make me laugh. We'll count your Top 8's and compare ;)

It's only one Open I've T8'd. I've Top 32'd most/all of them, and I'm consistently T4'ing all my locals.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

It's gonna be 61 then :)

[roflwaffles]

Taking this configuration to playtest against my buddies, any input would be much appreciated! (Sideboard is still being worked on)

Maindeck (61) :(

Land (23)
2x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creature (17)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tarmogoyf

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sorcery (7)
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Basically it's the standard Jund-like Junk build incorporating the Stoneforge package and the Dark Depths-Thespian's Stage combo to win out of nowhere when Knight of the Reliquary is active. (Added 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in place of a Windswept Heath to fight against being color-screwed by colorless lands).

Is my build trying to do too much at once or should I dedicate more slots to the main disruption/turn creatures sideways-gameplan?

[Sughayyer]

Taking this configuration to playtest against my buddies, any input would be much appreciated! (Sideboard is still being worked on)

Maindeck (61) :(

Land (23)
2x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creature (17)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tarmogoyf

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sorcery (7)
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil

Basically it's the standard Jund-like Junk build incorporating the Stoneforge package and the Dark Depths-Thespian's Stage combo to win out of nowhere when Knight of the Reliquary is active. (Added 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in place of a Windswept Heath to fight against being color-screwed by colorless lands).

Is my build trying to do too much at once or should I dedicate more slots to the main disruption/turn creatures sideways-gameplan?

you should test it. It seems nice at first glance (altough I'm not a fan of 2 stoneforges + batterskull nor dark depths + thespian).
Theoretically you got it all wrapped up. The only thing missing would be lingering souls but eh, can't have it all. Post your results for us!

EDIT: replace a wasteland for the urborg, bring the 8th fetchland: knights, shamen, and the manabase will thank you

[Seraph2k]

After a long time with other decks I will return to "The Rock". Maybe you can give me a short feedback on my list.

Manabase:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Critters:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavaging Ooze

Removal:
3 Swords
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

And:
2 Liliana otV
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

SB:
2 Liliana
4 Duress
3 S. Extraction
1 LftL
1 Gaddock
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thalia

With this list I want to be prepares for a lot of different matchups preboard.
It feels a bit strange to me to play the rock without a full set of goyfs and the lack of hymns, which are great in the early game, but mid or lategame they simply to not enough.
Liliana won me a lot of games, but there is no synergy with her in the deck...
And I am not sold on the dryad in the deck.

[sdematt]

After a long time with other decks I will return to "The Rock". Maybe you can give me a short feedback on my list.

Manabase:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Critters:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavaging Ooze

Removal:
3 Swords
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

And:
2 Liliana otV
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

SB:
2 Liliana
4 Duress
3 S. Extraction
1 LftL
1 Gaddock
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thalia

With this list I want to be prepares for a lot of different matchups preboard.
It feels a bit strange to me to play the rock without a full set of goyfs and the lack of hymns, which are great in the early game, but mid or lategame they simply to not enough.
Liliana won me a lot of games, but there is no synergy with her in the deck...
And I am not sold on the dryad in the deck.

Recall the functions of Dryad.

1) Fetch end of turn for a surprise attacker against Planeswalkers
2) Fetch to sac to a Liliana
3) Another Turn 1 acceleration piece
4) A creature to sac to Cabal Therapy

If you find you're not using it for any of these reasons, then don't run it. Since you're running GSZ however, you might as well. If you find your mana stability in your meta is lacking, then run another basic land.

-Matt

[Zeph]

After a long time with other decks I will return to "The Rock". Maybe you can give me a short feedback on my list.

Manabase:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Critters:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavaging Ooze

Removal:
3 Swords
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

And:
2 Liliana otV
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

SB:
2 Liliana
4 Duress
3 S. Extraction
1 LftL
1 Gaddock
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Thalia

With this list I want to be prepares for a lot of different matchups preboard.
It feels a bit strange to me to play the rock without a full set of goyfs and the lack of hymns, which are great in the early game, but mid or lategame they simply to not enough.
Liliana won me a lot of games, but there is no synergy with her in the deck...
And I am not sold on the dryad in the deck.

You should run Lingering Souls in favour of all your silver bullets main if you want synergy with Liliana :P

Other than that I wouldn't know what else to cut for LS. But they're just so good.....

[Seraph2k]

Thanks for your feedbacks. I will keep the dryad for the moment.
My manabase feels solid.
The problem with souls is the fact, that in the most cases I simply use it to chumpblock critters. All the other critters can win the game by themself.
Thrun is at the moment only an experiment, I like him, but he has to show more performance... I will see...

[Madmankevinx]

I have never played any Rock variants but the deck, or should I say colors, really look like fun. As I don't currently own ANY Bob's, how would a list like this fare?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

I figure with the Diamonds I can really have some ridiculous first and/or second turns that, if not interrupted, will dominate the early board(or just play them and let them be sacrificed to grow my Goyfs). Protected by the spot removal/discard, I would hope it would be able to suffice as a fast clock. Wastelands, as usual can just win some games by themselves. Now...will it work? Any opinions?

[Sughayyer]

I have never played any Rock variants but the deck, or should I say colors, really look like fun. As I don't currently own ANY Bob's, how would a list like this fare?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Sylvan Library

4 Mox Diamond

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

I figure with the Diamonds I can really have some ridiculous first and/or second turns that, if not interrupted, will dominate the early board(or just play them and let them be sacrificed to grow my Goyfs). Protected by the spot removal/discard, I would hope it would be able to suffice as a fast clock. Wastelands, as usual can just win some games by themselves. Now...will it work? Any opinions?

Take away the moxen, add 3 lingering souls and another thoughtseize/therapy/library/top.
Probably you'll have to change your manabase toaccomodate this, but you'll do well. Moxen became slightly redundant in the mid-range Rock (altough it may be nice on the tempo-based builds, however seldom might these builds be played). Lingering souls provides out of nowhere wins or board stabilization. Try them and see if you like.

EDIT: I've been playing this week with a list just like yours but:
-4 moxen
-1 sword of fire and ice
-1 decay
-1 stoneforge
+1 seize
+3 bob
+3 souls
+2 liliana
and 23 lands. And yes, that's 61 cards.

I've been liking it and I decided to test it after I saw a recent post in here, it's being really nice.

[sdematt]

Ideally, you add some Bobs in and directly replace the Moxen. They're decent, however, when running only 23 lands, your ratios for lands to Moxen are off. You need 25+ to regularly support 4. 2-3 for 23 lands is more appropriate. However, they're dead draws in the later game.

If you don't have Bobs, which is fine, you run either more Sylvans and/or Phyrexian Arena. Even though Arena is 3 mana, it's still not too bad at all. Some European Junk builds were running them about 6 months ago in addition to Bob. So, instead of spending $250 for a set of Bobs, the Library, Arena, and Top cost you, what, $20?

So maybe something like:



4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sensei's Divining Top


1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
(put the other piece of Equipment in the board)

1 Nantucko Monastery
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
24

Here I've put in 24 lands since this build is REALLY going to want basic lands since you're really hard into white. I've changed your manabase around as well so you're a bit more consistent. Basic lands are the real deal, and since you're lacking 4 Bobs, the Monastery will help do some work. You could also add a 1-of Garruk/Elspeth/Bomb card since you're at 60 cards with 24 lands (so your ratios are very good).

For a board, I wouldn't leave home without...

3 Thalia
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Life from the Loam
3 Gaddock Teeg
+7 others

-Matt

[Madmankevinx]

Looks pretty good Matt. I just may give it a try in a couple days at a local!

[sdematt]

Looks pretty good Matt. I just may give it a try in a couple days at a local!

Let us know if you become a merchant of death. I would recommend getting Confidants when you can, though. They're only going to go up.

Is anyone here specifically in need of cards? Is anyone still running Shocks instead of duals or doesn't have Sylvans, etc.? I've got a ton of extra stuff that I may just send out.

-Matt