[Deck] The Rock

[Megadeus]

Yeah that list looks pretty soft to miracles. If you wanted to shore that up you could do like Matt said and go minus like a goyf, plus 3 lingering souls, and maybe like +a sword of X&Y just to randomly draw? SoFaI is pretty solid against miracles

[tescrin]

This is mostly aimed at Megadeus and slighty more DGA oriented but; how does Vindicate fair for miracles? I feel like the 3CMC and ability to cut off white basics would be abnormally strong for a stone rain.


Aside from that, I'll keep brewing and let you guys know. Getting used to all that mana SFM requires is a pain but I'll admit that shutting down a horde of goblins w/ BSK or taking over a game with Jitte is pretty brutal. Thanks for chattin'

[Megadeus]

It's fine. It's tough for them to have a 3 for CB, and it kills everything so if nothing else you get to own a Jace with it

[slikwilly]

I have been playing the same 75 I posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=827285&viewfull=1#post827285) for the last few weeks.

Last week went 3-0-1 again, ID to Miracles to split the prize but we played it out and I was on the wrong end. Yesterday went 2-2-0. I beat UB Tezz (haven't lost to it since picking up this deck) and Smallpox (all hail Bob & especially Sylvan Library whose CA _almost_ killed me, but I'd probably flat out lose w/o it) but lost to UWr Miracles and Food Chain.

The Food Chain matchup feels okay, he just had all the answers for me every time. Am I mistaken?

Miracles however, seems rough still. I'm debating adding a Choke or two to my board. Armageddon is also a little tempting, but I suspect the extra mana isn't worth it considering there aren't a ton of other decks I'd want it against (and I'm not not sure what else I'd want it against anyway). I have no idea to cut from the board though, as I've like all of it at one point or another.

Would I be correct in assuming that 12-post is not so good a matchup?

[tescrin]

12-post, in my deck, is an excellent MU. I have a 1x Loam with KotR for Wasteland spam. It creates an exceptionally hostile environment where I can walk into multiple crop rotations and still lock them down.

Matt's Goyf list needs to kill them pretty quick and I'm not sure how it'd feel. Lily's help for sure (ult on lands or edict on their fat) and simply having a good clock helps. Decays help for Pithing Needle on Wasteland. DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF GOING FOR BSK. At least not unless you accidentally drew it. Repeal is brutal. I ended up drawing the match because the first game took so long (couldn't equip BSK, couldn't get a fast clock.) The second and third games I learned my lesson and beat him to death quickly; going to turns G3 with him at 10 and me about to untap for another 6.

If Post is a problem or you think it will be, have a loam or two in the side. They're great for MUD, Jund, Shardless; you name it. It's even great for Delver and such. Sucks real bad against combo, Miracles, Burn, and a bunch of random other MUs. It's quite good on D&T too (you get your lands back and start turning the tables if they don't draw enough plains.)

[sdematt]

12-post, in my deck, is an excellent MU. I have a 1x Loam with KotR for Wasteland spam. It creates an exceptionally hostile environment where I can walk into multiple crop rotations and still lock them down.

Matt's Goyf list needs to kill them pretty quick and I'm not sure how it'd feel. Lily's help for sure (ult on lands or edict on their fat) and simply having a good clock helps. Decays help for Pithing Needle on Wasteland. DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF GOING FOR BSK. At least not unless you accidentally drew it. Repeal is brutal. I ended up drawing the match because the first game took so long (couldn't equip BSK, couldn't get a fast clock.) The second and third games I learned my lesson and beat him to death quickly; going to turns G3 with him at 10 and me about to untap for another 6.

If Post is a problem or you think it will be, have a loam or two in the side. They're great for MUD, Jund, Shardless; you name it. It's even great for Delver and such. Sucks real bad against combo, Miracles, Burn, and a bunch of random other MUs. It's quite good on D&T too (you get your lands back and start turning the tables if they don't draw enough plains.)

Knight is very good in the 12-Post matchup, but since few people are playing him, here's what you've got to do.

1) Pithing Needle is great for Candelabra or Top. They're a pretty derdle deck.
2) Aggressively get rid of their SnT if possible. Drain their hand.
3) Get a clock going, save STP for Titan if you can.

Liliana is quite good, Decay is a tad underwhelming. Since PrimeTime is bigger than Goyf, going for Feast and Famine is also quite relevant for just getting as much pressure on board as possible. It's definitely not an easy matchup, and sometimes they can just lock it up like 43 lands.

As for Miracles, my board in total looks like this:

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Meddling Mage

What can realistically come in? 2 Needle, 2 Grip, 3 Teeg, 3 Meddling Mage, and if you wanted to, 2 EE if you had room. This build ensures that Top is rarely active or lives due to Needle, Decay, Grip or hand disruption; Teeg prevents all; their good cards and Mage can name Terminus, STP, or Jace. Backed with protection in the form of equipment as well as all those abilities, it's in Rock's favour.

I'm not saying it's a walk in the park. I'm not saying Miracles can't recover or just Entreat off the top. I'm just saying you have tools to fight all of their major angles of attack and they have few cards to bring in against us.

BTW - Glory to Sylvan Library.

-Matt

[Whitefaces]

I've thrown this together fairly last minute for tomorrow to play at my LGSs weekly legacy night. I like to play non-blue decks and have been on Jund for quite a while and tend to play Junk Nic Fit a fair bit too. Thought I'd give The Rock a go!

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Ploughshares
2 Lingering Souls

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[damionblackgear]

Any thoughts or suggestions?

You've got a lot of Graveyard hate. I think you can afford to drop some of it from your board. I would suggest a sweeper of some sort in it's/their place.

I'm also a little concerned on your costs. Your list looks to be very dependent on sticking a shaman, or them to just go a little slower allowing you to get to 3 mana unmolested, to ensure that you're up and running. That's something that testing will show. My concern there could be entirely unwarranted.

Library becomes a quite-a-bit worse when you have Chains in play. I suggest top in it's place as you'll want both abilities in some match-ups but would not be able to use Library with Chains in play.

If you're using Chains I suggest looking into getting a second. The real power's the second. I'd also suggest adding Mikokoro, Center of the Sea to your land toolbox as a way to force its activation. If you stick two you can draw during their draw step to force the interaction (potential lock). As a side note, your Loam would be exempt from this making it not effect you at all.

[slikwilly]

Piloted the deck to another 3-0-1 event this weekend w/o dropping a game (and ID in r4 to get out and get drinking). Only changes I made to the list I've been using was -2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Enlightened Tutor. I wanted two needles, but I only had one, so I went with the e-tutor in its stead.

R1 - Deathblade. Don't recall much of G1 other than it being a slog but a Stoneforge Mystic dual wielding a Sword of Fire and Ice + Sword of Light and Shadow well wreck your house when you finally get it online. Can't recall much of G2 at all.

R2 - My nemesis: UWr Miracles. G1 I get a T1 Deathrite into T2 Bob and then right the card advantage home. Probably helped that he was tight on mana too. G2 was pretty similar, but timely Abrupt Decay to deal w/ Thopter Foundry or Counterbalance so I could land my spells or hit for damage got it done.

R3 - High Tide. G1 opponent seemed to draw poorly and I just brought the beats as fast as I could. G2 I kept a hand because it had E-Tutor in it. He Preordained his T1, I played Scrub and passed. He Pondered into Divining Top. EOT I tutored up the Needle, stuck it on T2, into T3 Lili and before finally sticking some threats.

Not sure if I'm getting lucky with all the success I've been having with the deck since I switched to it, or what, but I'll take it :) Now if only I'd stop spending my winnings on EDH cards and instead save it up to start working on getting some Goyfs...

[iamajellydonut]

Library becomes a quite-a-bit worse when you have Chains in play. I suggest top in it's place as you'll want both abilities in some match-ups but would not be able to use Library with Chains in play.

If you're using Chains I suggest looking into getting a second. The real power's the second. I'd also suggest adding Mikokoro, Center of the Sea to your land toolbox as a way to force its activation. If you stick two you can draw during their draw step to force the interaction (potential lock). As a side note, your Loam would be exempt from this making it not effect you at all.

This is all terrible advice. Going in order

1) No, Chains and Library don't play nice when they're on the battlefield. However, Sylvan Library kicks a mean dick when it's on the battlefield. Chains of Mephehrghredeles kicks a mean dick when it's on the battlefield. If you stick either, you're doing great in terms of winning the war. So what if one's a dead card while the other is on the battlefield? "Being dead sometimes" is not a quality that's exclusive to these cards, and honestly the odds of seeing both is exceptionally low for the most part. Yes, you may want to side Sylvan Library out and side Chains of Mephistopheles in against some combo match-ups, but that has nothing to do with the interaction between the two and everything to do with the individual cards' effectiveness against your opponent.

2) Sensei's Divining Top ≠ Sylvan Library.

3) Two Chains is incredibly redundant and does nothing for the deck. Contrary to popular belief, Chains of Mephistopheles is not the end of the world for any deck. It can very much so be played around and removed. It's not a legless Spirit of the Labyrinth with indestructible. It's a legless Meddling Mage that "names" multiple spells, but has the inability to hit the cards you care about. It doesn't stop the kill. You don't hit turn two, drop a Chains of Mephistopheles and cackle your way to victory. It hurts, it always hurts, but it doesn't win. Chains of Mephistopheles is not your front line hate. It's very good support. Dedicate sideboard slots to cards that actually matter like Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze or whatever.

4) You would weaken your mana base and put above other utility lands a mediocre draw engine that only works with two cards in your sideboard?

5) Same thing except Loam is actually good on its own.

[damionblackgear]

This is all terrible advice. Going in order

I've read your response and I don't know if you've read the post that I responded to asking for thoughts on their list or actually read my post for content instead of skimming. If you did read for content, I think you may have jumped to some conclusions. I'll try to give a little more clarity into what I was implying and give you a little different perspective.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion regarding my previous post of offerings to another person's list. If you have further concerns feel free to PM me. I do respond back.

I'd also like to offer you the chance to give some intended to be helpful comments to the person who actually asked for it as you clearly have a bit of time to spare so that we could know your opinion of my suggestions. He's at the bottom of the last page :wink:

1) Library is good and I'm not arguing that. If you happened to noticed, (s)he already has a chains in the board. A single chains. Chains is a fine card when utilized correctly, which can be difficult, but gets better when you have a second. It improves again if you have a way to force its ability on the opponent. I don't use Chains because I don't find a need for it and believe its role in my 75 can be accomplished using other tools. My 75 wasn't the one being looked at though.

2) "Sensei's Divining Top ≠ Sylvan Library." I still haven't said that in this thread. They aren't. I said "ability" and wasn't referencing these two. Perhaps I should better define that out as it's most likely being misinterpreted. -- You'll want both the ability to filter your draws as harass your opponent with Chains.

On the top vs library remark, you can go back a couple pages and take a look at their comparisons made during the discussion of which should be used. People seemed to believe that they were similar but not equal (which I also agree with) and favored the Library (which I do not for some lists). As for which is better, that should still be left as a taboo subject as each option has its time. Chains gives a time when top is typically better and that is why I suggested it.

3) I'll address your comments on Mikokoro in the next section.

I know this will sound offensive but... Do you know what Chains does? Do you know what 2 Chains do (outside of rap)? A third copy is redundant but the overall effect does change when going from 1 to 2 as the ability changes if you're able to discard a card.

If (s)he ever got 2 chains (using the current list this would be just as likely as getting Chains + Library in play) all draw effects turn into "Discard, Discard, Draw", "Discard, Mill, be sad", or "Mill, be sad". The quick easy understanding is that one Chain stops extra draws (they lose one for each they gain) while 2 Chains forces extra draws to be discard and potentially stops extra draws all together. Not redundant. This does change if they have a replacement effect for the draw.

You were correct though in mentioning that chains can be played around. To actually play around it involves not casting draw spells or only casting the ones that are actual draws and not filters then weighing the value of the other cards in your hand. Cards like brainstorm can be considered to be gone already and until they find an answer. They basically play pretending to be short on cards until they find an answer.

As for your other argument, I don't expect chains to win the game or deal damage. I hope no one would unless you stick it turn 2 vs Solidarity (Hightide) or Solitare (enchantress) or have Megrim in play... which I would advise against unless you rebuild from scratch. I would also expect it to do more vs a control deck than a combo deck as you'll have more time to have it stop Brainstorms and Jace activation than hoping that they don't have the tools to go off already.

4) Yes, but (s)he's running 4 wastelands in a 22-land list which I feel is too many for a Knight list (especially with a Loam). As such, it wouldn't be hurting the manabase at all if (s)he replaces a Wasteland with Mikokoro. In fact, it's a pseudo improvement to the manabase as it's a land that isn't planning on killing itself.

Additionally, it synergizes with at least 4 cards from the board and couples nicely with any discard in the main. It's a misconception that your opponent will always be able to cast the cards they get. Sometimes they can't do a thing with the card. Unless you're in dire need of a card, drawing and having access to a card first should be better for you than them.

Other reasons I suggested it
- Liliana's +1 is worse when they're hellbent and you're not.
- Thoughtseize/Hymn aren't as good when the opponent is hellbent and you have nothing to do with it.
- Brainstorm allows them to hide 2 cards from discard.
- (S)he doesn't have to activate Mikokoro.
- Can draw extra cards to get you past dry spots when without Bob/Library.
- Loam can be saved via instant speed draw.

Don't write a card off until you try it and actually give it an objective chance.

5) Loam is good... but not on it's own. You want to hit lands. You want to have things to do with those lands (build manabase, thin deck, waste, or other utility). Additionally milling 3 isn't the biggest threat but without a stronghold, there's no way to guarantee that you won't mill your entire threat pool. However low a percentage, that possibility still exists.

Some exiting thoughts -
- Using Loam + Chains would allow for some really interesting synergies that I hadn't considered. Such as discarding Loam to dredge it for the draw from Chains (dredging that doesn't allow for instant speed removal).

[iamajellydonut]

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion regarding my previous post of offerings to another person's list. If you have further concerns feel free to PM me. I do respond back.

I'd also like to offer you the chance to give some intended to be helpful comments to the person who actually asked for it as you clearly have a bit of time to spare so that we could know your opinion of my suggestions. He's at the bottom of the last page :wink:

I'm not entirely sure why you want to take this to PMs. Just because I sneer and hold your views with contempt does not mean I have any issue with you as a person. I just think that your ideas are silly and foolish. I read your post thoroughly. I looked at his list a bit less thoroughly because to be honest it's just jammed goodstuff in a BGW shell. I replied. And my reply still speaks as intended with no changes. Including any "helpful comments" for him. Considering that the Junk shell is very loosely defined and that there is a (dated) primer and over six thousand posts from which to glean information, no, I do not feel like re-typing a decade's worth of information for him. If he had a specific question, I would love to answer it if I had a good answer. But "how's my deck" isn't really a tantalizing question and the answer wouldn't actually give them any information they don't already have at their disposal. What I will do is clear up misinformation.

The goal of Chains is to corner them out of options. If you cast a Chains of Mephistopheles, they look at their hand of Brainstorms and Ponders and Probes and cringe. That's the beginning and the end of the goal. So, what do you achieve if you cast two Chains of Mephistopheles? Sure, ordinarily they can cast Ponder in a pinch and take a hit in order to filter their hand some, but that's as close to "good" as anything in their hand as far as draw is going to get beyond keeping it in storage till they find removal for Chains of Mephistopheles. So, again, what's that second Chains of Mephistopheles doing? If I have a Chains of Mephistopheles already on the board, the last card I'm hoping to see beyond land is another Chains. At that point, you have the way paved already and are looking to develop the board for an advantage they cannot come back from. Drop a Goyf. Drop a Confidant. Go to town with a Stoneforge Mystic. If you drop a second Chains of Mephistopheles, you're only defeating the purpose of the first it and setting yourself behind. You're not a prison deck. You run all those overly efficient creatures and Sylvan Library for a reason.

Hypothetical mumbo jumbo of control this or aggro that, or even mana cost this or mana cost that, the fact of the practical matter is that people are scared of Sylvan Library. Justifiably. Against any deck where life can be used as a resource, Sylvan Library stands head and shoulders above the competition. The ability to Ancestral Recall without breaking a sweat while still having a Mirri's Guile makes it arguably the best card in any 75 against Miracles and a fair number of other match-ups. By sharp contrast, nobody cares if you have a Sensei's Divining Top. Good? Yes, but at the end it boils down to a mana intensive and Revokerable Mirri's Guile that nobody really cares about.

[tescrin]

@jelly
Opinion wise, I'm mostly with Jelly, but there are some things to mention:
1&2: Top and Library both do well. No need to derail the thread over it like a few pages ago. No one cares about Brainstorm either; but it's better than Library a lot of the time.
3: Chains stack. It's Christmas land to get multiples and have it matter, but they do stack. In fact Damion seems to think the third copy doesn't stack; but it very much does.

Top is quite preferable when you have Loam in the deck. It keeps Loam safe from DRS or other non-Extirpates.

@damion
4: Volrath's is weak. I've tried it and it's not only excruciatingly slow but it's ineffective against the most grindy decks, either because they'll waste it/eat it or because none of your creatures hit the yard. It's better to just dig/have a better deck.

Mikokoro is bad. There's no other way to put it. The christmas land where you have Chains (let alone multiple), a way to abuse Mikokoro with it (Loam for instance) and Miko/active KotR is so slim that I don't believe it's worth it. If you want a lock like that Words of Waste combos with Top or simply a funeral Charm next to Snapcaster can get you several timewalks. Not this deck though.

5: Loam's pretty good by itself. I mean yeah, you need something in your grave, but between fetches, wastes, and dredges it shouldn't be too bad. Most lists include a Lingering Souls or 3 anyway and I can attest that dredging into Souls is awesome.

I should mention that Dredge is a replacement effect and you can't eat a Loam if they're dredging it.





On my own experience this weekend (2-2); a local DGA player (Cody Lingelbach) beat me up pretty good and it got me questioning all kinds of things. My musings..:
-Maindeck Thalia kinda sucks. She's being removed for the Lingering souls again.
-I'm still terrible with SFM and it's really hard to keep her in the deck at this point. It's hard to tell whether the wins she gets are confirmation bias or if they would've been wins anyway. Still, I'll give her some more time before I start shredding my list.
-Didn't see wastelands hardly at all (1 jund game) and it cost me 2 matches. Had an issue with mulligans and land screw; adding the 4th waste should help both of these things.
-Had a game where I had multiple equips stuck in my hand. I'm thinking of going 2-2 on the SFM package.
-I missed my hymns after getting hit by one from Jund.
-Playing against DGA makes me want to try Tidehollow Scullers again..
-Playing against DGA makes me want to use Zealous Persecutions..
-Lily had no air time this week either. Had a pair against a goofy Delver deck (Delver-still brew) but that's hardly good when that's the removal you draw :s.

This is what I'll be trying this week (as I've been happy before with a 2x SFM)
Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


The list is -1 threat, -1 Equip, but I can see why people used to not run SoFaI and why you still wouldn't if you have Souls. Souls + anything race fine and SoFaI is incredibly clunky. I think it'll make my sideboard because it's a wicked clock and draw engine; but that's still a maybe. Maybe I'll shave a discard back off for it (finally grabbed my other 2 thoughtseize and decided to try a 3/3 split) or try 3 SFM again.

I will say I've been playing SFM before Bob (often trying to draw out removal) but it was finally pointed out to me I was being a garbage. Were I to stop garbaging maybe I'd have better luck with SFM. That said, she single handedly beat Merfolk for me; which is always nice.


(Of course thoughts are appreciated!)

[iamajellydonut]

-Maindeck Thalia kinda sucks. She's being removed for the Lingering souls again.
-I'm still terrible with SFM and it's really hard to keep her in the deck at this point. It's hard to tell whether the wins she gets are confirmation bias or if they would've been wins anyway. Still, I'll give her some more time before I start shredding my list.

Agreed on both counts.

I made a post a while back about Thalia and promptly deleted it because I realized it didn't really fit in with the current discussion, but it was basically to the effect that every time I try to include Thalia in a Junk-esque build, it inevitably ends up looking like Dark Maverick and ending badly. It's a great card, but it's not as one-sided as it needs to be and doesn't play well with others.

As far as Stoneforge Mystic, I don't really like near-full sets of her outside of blue variants simply because you do get stuck with those hands full of equipment or see all three Stoneforges at once when you really need zero. I love 2/2 though and feel it's the perfect amount. At 2x, worst case becomes you get a bit of card advantage, and best case you still get that Jitte or Batterskull online.

[maharis]

Abzan Ascendancy:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ktk/8arg43u984398yf/en_brdk86957g.png

Maybe as a one-of in the right build. Though it doesn't trigger off your Souls tokens, it still juices them. Helps win Goyf wars, makes DRS/SFM into combat threats, and gives you an equipment carrier if they die. A 3/2 Bob is also a beautiful thing.

Again, you aren't going to just jam this off your DRS turn 2, but I definitely see it as a relevant card in grindier creature matchups.

[tescrin]

Abzan Ascendancy:
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ktk/8arg43u984398yf/en_brdk86957g.png

Problems:
-It doesn't do anything on it's own
-It does nothing against Plow or Terminus
-It does nothing against counterspells

it goes the way of all enchantments/gods like it: Casual, possibly standard.
I'd probably use Athreos, God of Passage first; but it has all of the same problems minus that it's unable to be removed.

[Megadeus]

It's sad because the first ability synergizes so well with tokens, but the second ability doesn't

[iamajellydonut]

It's sad because the first ability synergizes so well with tokens, but the second ability doesn't

Its first ability is a bad Glorious Anthem.

[Megadeus]

Fair. Still though. Maybe I'll build around it in modern

[mini1337s]

http://i.imgur.com/4AxziLf.jpg

Playable?

[iamajellydonut]

It doesn't really have relevant application other than being a Doran variant. Hosing specifically creatures doesn't do very much.

[Warden]

None of these new cards look appealing.

On another note, Athreos, God of Passage is interesting. Was that ever any good for anybody? I'd LOVE to go deadguy-ish rock + drs/decays with the BW god.

[iamajellydonut]

On another note, Athreos, God of Passage is interesting. Was that ever any good for anybody? I'd LOVE to go deadguy-ish rock + drs/decays with the BW god.

It takes two relevant creatures (not discarded, exiled, countered, bottomed) for Athreos to be better than something like Death's Duet, and even then it provides an element of choice. So, no.

[damionblackgear]

Wanted to clear up a couple things... that's getting to be the only reason I post anymore.

I never said Volrath was a good card in my previous post. I presented a possibility and offered the card as it is the only way to ensure a way out of it.

I'm also aware that dredge is a replacement effect. My point was that chains doesn't provide an opportunity to respond between its discard and draw. Those would be Loam's discard and dredge via chains. You will have things that trigger but you can't get it out it out of the yard with an ability or spell until the Chains resolves with you dredging Loam.

That unmolested Dredge is something that's not available at any other point in a turn. The only draw that doesn't use the stack is in your draw phase (first thing you do) which requires them to pass priority from the upkeep (where they can respond). Other draws result from spells and abilities which all use the stack (can be reacted to in some way).

Mikokoro Is something I offered as I'm having success with it. It seems to be more a belief on what should and shouldn't be played that's stopped the trying of it. I learned a long time ago that THE LIST should only be used as a guide, not a rule. That's fine though. We all have different results.

-----

I've PM'd you (jelly). If you have further personal issue, please consult me there or not at all. Leave this thread for the deck.

[sdematt]

Basically, I want a playable creature in our colours. Seriously...

Like, would you play this?

Not Awful Creature - 1BWG (Yes, 4 mana...)

3/4, Trample

When NAC comes into play, lose 3 life and choose one of the following:

-Thoughtseize
-STP
-Vindicate

I think that would be playable. Maybe it's too fair, but whatever. I wouldn't mind also seeing a BWG planeswalker:

Something Something, Reveler of the Decay - 1BWG (BWG would be too broken)

Each creature with toughness greater than its power may deal damage to opposing creatures using its toughness instead of its power.

During your upkeep, put a 1/1 flying white spirit into play.

3 Starting Loyalty

+1: You draw a card, lose one life, then each player discards a card.
-3: Choose target nonland-permanent. That player sacrifices that permanent.
-6: Return all creatures from all graveyards to the battlefield under your control. They each gain deathtouch and the ability "1T: This creature fights another target creature"

I just wished Wizards would decide to print something well costed in Legacy that isn't blue. Le sigh.


-Matt

[sdematt]

After shooting the shit, the planeswalker is way too OP. Disregard.


Let's get back on track with things that matter. Like why the new instant speed Vindicate still isn't good enough.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

Let's get back on track with things that matter. Like why the new instant speed Vindicate still isn't good enough.

Because it costs more than Abrupt Decay?

[sdematt]

Because it costs more than Abrupt Decay?

But it would hit Jace. The fact it doesn't hit lands is a bummer.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

But it would hit Jace.

And costs more than any card in the deck. Honestly, I think that even if it did hit land it wouldn't be played. We don't need it, and four is far too high of a number.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'm curious as to whether any lists have considered returning to Tidehollow Sculler. I've always felt he was an undervalued creature who usually manages to eat a piece of removal from one of your other threats. Maybe he's seen less play because adding him can force us into a Deadguy shell which focuses on small creatures + equipment to win?

I've been trying to get back into competitive Legacy for some time now as I went on hiatus following my return to school (and the completion thereof) as well as moving to Minneapolis, changing jobs, etc. As SCG will be coming to Minneapolis I've been working to modify my Rock and adapt it to the prevalent meta (although deep down in my sole the balls to the wall MTG player in me yearns to play Dragon Stompy which I still feel would be somewhat solid as long as I ran the artifact shell).

For reference here's my list:


4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

Sideboard

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / Manriki Gusari
2 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace

Overall my list doesn't look to do anything too outlandish. A rather standard list besides my Tutor SB which I felt would be a safety net when I went to my first competitive Legacy event a month or two ago (40+ people). I'm unsure as to whether I want to keep GSZ anymore. It's benefits are quite obvious but I've developed more and more the opinion that at least as far as the lists I've developed goes, it doesn't do nearly enough for me. It can certainly give me the random T1 Acceleration via Arbor or fetch me a utility creature/beater, but I often wonder if perhaps I wouldn't be better off with something that has more of an impact.

I've also been wondering if perhaps our deck may want to consider returning to a more explosive start via Mox Diamond. Our deck has always been strong because we pack a lot of gas and use early disruption to accelerate into heavy beaters. Although we're in no position to competitively return to Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore, we also can have difficulty against midrange/late game decks like BUG or Miracles whereas we can easily rip apart combo decks if we cast our disruption early.

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate path for our deck to take, but as I've gone to the limits with self debate I've been trying to consider ways to change our builds to make them more effective. I still haven't quite found the niche list that will make me comfortable playing it. All the way to my SuiBlack days I've always been a black player who preferred aggression to attrition. I had been running Deadguy builds which featured Bob/Top/Tombstalker/Nighthawk with Goyf splash. I went back to Rock as I felt like perhaps I was loosing some utility offered with a more heavy green adaptation.

I'm just trying to bounce some ideas around as I'd really like to be prepared for SCG Minneapolis but I'm unsure as to what variant I even want, let alone strategies.

Forlorn

[tescrin]

@Egoist
The problem with Sculler is:
-Would you rather have 1CMC discard?
-Would you rather have Liliana?

If either of the above are true your list changes to 3-4 Lili and another 2-3 discard. Some people can use him decently enough; but for combo I'd rather max my 1CMC discard and soft-lock with Lily; for Fair decks I'd rather edict than put down a 2/2. I don't think he's bad except when I play him; so it could be a playstyle or play-error kind of thing. He's certainly decent next to Bob to force removal.

I'd definitely cut Stirring Wildwood. Those 4 Hymn in the side should be hatebears IMO; a 2 Teeg 2 Thalia split would be my guess. Cutting an SFM for a Goyf would probably be good in your list as well.


EDIT: I feel like Sculler is a weird middle ground between Lily, discard, and a threat. Certainly he can be great in some scenarios; such as a Discard into Sculler against a weak hand or some such. I think the part that makes him usable/good is building the deck to have synergy with him (ZP, Equips, etc) that way he can punch through weenies, win bear wars, and become a legit topdeck against hellbent opponents.

[Warden]

@Egoist
The problem with Sculler is:
-Would you rather have 1CMC discard?
-Would you rather have Liliana?

If either of the above are true your list changes to 3-4 Lili and another 2-3 discard. Some people can use him decently enough; but for combo I'd rather max my 1CMC discard and soft-lock with Lily; for Fair decks I'd rather edict than put down a 2/2. I don't think he's bad except when I play him; so it could be a playstyle or play-error kind of thing. He's certainly decent next to Bob to force removal.

I'd definitely cut Stirring Wildwood. Those 4 Hymn in the side should be hatebears IMO; a 2 Teeg 2 Thalia split would be my guess. Cutting an SFM for a Goyf would probably be good in your list as well.


EDIT: I feel like Sculler is a weird middle ground between Lily, discard, and a threat. Certainly he can be great in some scenarios; such as a Discard into Sculler against a weak hand or some such. I think the part that makes him usable/good is building the deck to have synergy with him (ZP, Equips, etc) that way he can punch through weenies, win bear wars, and become a legit topdeck against hellbent opponents.

I agree with a lot of this logic. I like Sculler as "hymn with legs". It isn't a direct 2-for-1, but more like a temporary CA situation. You get a creature + vision of their hand + a pseudo discard. It takes a threat/removal of their own to get rid of him. I think Sculler is actually better as a 2x compliment card than a 4x go-to. The bigger issue, of course, is that he warps your deck to being weenie-based. You'd have to mitigate this situation with goyfs and SFM stuff.

[tescrin]

I'll mention that Sculler is one of the few, if only, discard cards that is tempo advantage instead of disadvantage; or at least conditionally (on both ends.)

Discard can grant tempo if an opponent's curve starts missing land/card drops or Sculler can lose tempo if the opponent has 1CMC removal (or enough excess mana to kill him and make their play.) What he can do is throw a deck out of curve while giving you a bear. When I had replaced Hymn with him the deck ran different and ok, but I didn't like giving action back to an opponent.

Possibly the most viable use of him is getting rid of opposing discard so that they have discard in the mid-late game where you may have played the important pieces of your hand? (of course, he's basically always good against combo..)

[maharis]

I've always been a little wary of going full-bore into Junk because I lack Goyfs, but I've been listening to Matt pumping Sylvan Library's tires for so long that I just decided to screw it and play a variation of his list. Tonight I took this to a 4-round tournament:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bitterblossom

Ignore the schizophrenic sideboard, I'm out of town, in an unfamilar meta, and I must've made a dozen changes while looking around the room.

Anyway, I went 2-2, but I have to say that Matt is right. Sylvan Library is the real deal. Thing got me out of so many jams. I might be too aggressive with it, actually, but I'll be playing with it more.

Rd. 1 vs. budget Shardless (still a couple Watery Graves, but everything else was complete) — he got me game 1 with triple Goyfs but I obliterated him game 2 (ending board state was him with only a Wasteland in play and me with like 10 permanents). My game 3 opener was atrocious but he mulliganed as well and I got there in the end.

Rd. 2 vs. Elves. So this was a nightmare, mostly because I don't think I played it correctly. Turn 1 I played a DRS, turn 2 I blind therapied naming Elvish Visionary and I hit 2 of them. Then I cast Stoneforge, got Jitte, and flashbacked DRS to take a Wirewood Symbiote. But he got a Quirion Ranger and Dryad Arbor down, which means I couldn't get counters, and I just didn't get there before he rebuilt. I really hate myself for this one because I just missed the interaction and took the most powerful card over the most important. Then game 2 I just got hoofed

Rd. 3 shardless again. Full build, which might have been relevant. This is where I think I was too aggressive with Library. I was trying to keep up with him on cards but his are free and mine cost life. Went 0-2, but played a third game for fun which I won and a 4th game that was very close when the last round started

Rd. 4 mana dredge (city, confluence, LED). Got blown out game 1 when I kept an opener of Thoughtseize, Liliana, Bob, Decay, and 3 lands. Whoops. Sided out all my discard and lilianas and won two grindy postboard games. In game 3, I played Teeg into Teeg to blow up two of his bridges and felt smart. Then he told me he sided out dread return anyway. Well, whatever, I still won.

I'm really looking forward to playing with Library again. It's just so powerful. I still might monkey with the goyf slots a bit (I had originally planned on running 3 Kitchen Finks expecting to play some burn, but when no one around the room was on it, I switched to what I played tonight) and the MD therapies are something I want to test against other Stoneforge decks, but it all comes back to Sylvan Library. It is a great way for us non-blue players to get some of that Brainstorm feel. A few times I was thoughtseized tonight and they left the Library there and took Stoneforge or something. Big mistake. Long live Sylvan.

[tescrin]

I went 3-1 this week using a Kotr + Goyf list to experiment. It was something people did 5 years ago or so with some Top8s, so I was interested if the grave hate is enough to make it bad. Luckily for me I fought a D&T deck that boarded in three RiPs so I got to feel the pain of having a useless board (but the joy of winning over the top with a hoard of Lingering Souls :P.)

Anyway, wins against D&T, Storm, and a red Stompy deck; loss against Burg Delver.

Will be swapping over to something more like Matt's list for a short while and see if I like the Goyf + SFM package more than KotR + SFM. I feel like KotR + SFM both want to be dropped later which was the mana pressure I was feeling, where other decks have more 2-drops to pad SFM's mana-curve with (DGA has Sculler, Matt has Goyf, Mav has Thalia/Ooze/etc..) I'll be starting with a 3 SFM 2 Equip package with a SoLaS in the board (Junk/DGA/D&T are prevalent enough at the moment it seems good. I like it for Pro white on Teeg as well.) I noticed how much stronger the mana-base will be and am a bit excited by that.


I learned a good lesson this week anyway; leave your 1CMC discard in against Delver. I never considered that right until I realized I was raising my curve against a deck that wants to slow you down. It also allows threat removal against a counter-heavy hand or removal light hands. That's my musings for this week anyway.

[slikwilly]

I took my list to St. Louis this weekend, where I managed a meager 4-3 finish before dropping to begin the 5 hour drive home. I ran the list I've been talking about on here, except -1 Doran +1 Engineered Plague in the board after walking around the Legacy Trial the night before and seeing a LOT of Elves running around. Apparently that was a good call because I listened to the top 8 coverage on the drive home and they mentioned that there was an abundance of elves in the room.

R1 (0-1) - Elves (ha!). G1 my life total goes from 20 to 0. Thank you Craterhoof. G2 Gaddock Teeg shuts down his NO and GSZ long enough for me to get the board locked up w/ a Jitte and he scoops, showing me a hand of 2 GSZ and 1 NO. G3 I get Teeg and Grafdiggers Cage out, so his Decay's don't do enough. He's playing out threats and I finally find a Stoneforge for Jitte while I have 5 mana available. 5 mana being 1 less than I need to cast SFM, cast Jitte, and equip Jitte. He top decks a Craterfoof and hits me for 40-something. *sigh* One more turn and I would have locked it up.

R2 (0-2) - Cheerios. Yeah, got no real way to interact with triple Glimpse drawing your deck and casting a giant Grapeshot.

At this point I was planning on playing to three losses but at least 5 rounds.

R3 (1-2) - Leylines (yes, same guy from Kansas City). Both games he couldn't find the mana to cast an Opalescence before I beat him down with things carrying swords. Annoying thing: Leyline of Sanctity means you can't hit your opponent w/ damage from Sword of Fire and Ice. I was shocking the sword carrier so I could draw the card. Also: Suppression Field is annoying as hell. Not annoying: playing a three color deck with Deathrite Shaman and Engineered Explosives.

R4 (2-2) - Jund Can't recall much of these games other than the ones I won involved Bob getting me a few cards and Swords rendering creatures unblockable.

R5 (3-2) - Dredge - Double DRS in both games gets it done.

R6 (4-2) - Deadguy Ale (I think). After G1 I had actually ID'd it as D&T because I saw no black and did see Serra Avenger. G2 and G3 though, he revealed Savannah, Scrubland, Bob, Thoughtseize, and DRS. Games basically came down to who could get a threat online and out CA the other guy. G1 and G3 that was me. Pridemage nearly single handedly won me G3 thanks to the Exaulted trigger letting me swing past his Revoker (naming Pridemage) for the last 12 damage. He had taken 4 off Thoughtseizes and 2 of fetches and the remaining two came from an Exaulted Stoneforge swinging past the Revoker, so it really was the little Pridemage that could.

R7 (4-3) - Sneak and Show (and lack of sleep catches up with me). G1 I'm on the draw and kept an opening grip w/ 2 Thoughtseize, a Therapy, some threat or another that I cant remember and lands. He leads with Island into Ponder. I TS and see Ancient Tomb, FoW, 2 Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Show & Tell. Take Show & Tell. Next turn I rip another TS so I cast one, he Forces it and I cast the next, taking Sneak Attack. T3 I Therapy away the Emrakul's, land a Bob and then start beating while he tries to rebuild. He eventually scoops when he's at 6 and I have a SoLS on Bob and DRS. G2 he has the T1 S&T into Griselbrand but I dropped a Karakas with it. I bounce it, he draws 7. Some durdling commences and I'm beating him with I'm not even sure what when I commit a terrible mistake. I forget that this damn deck runs Blood Moon, and I'm fetching non-basics. He taps out for a Blood Moon, effectively locking me out. The following turn he taps out for a Sneak Attack. I have a Krosan Grip in hand. Had I just fetched basics, I should be able to get there. G3 I get a Bob out but he gets a Griselbrand and that's bigger, flies, and has lifelink all of which is super bad for me.

Didn't see a Delver deck nor Miracles. I guess that's the benefit of the 0-2 bracket.

I felt like I played well all day except for the last round. Of my losses one is just a horrible matchup (and so niche as to not be worth planning for), one came down to a top deck, and one I will chalk up to a sleep deprived brain fart.

Bob was the all star for the day. I didn't see a lot of Sylvan, but when I did it was typically awesome. Both swords were good. Sometimes I'd like the Feast & Famine triggers, but Light & Shadow is great too. Protection from Swords to Plowshares is fantastic, the life gain often translates to extra cards w/ Bob and Sylvan, and getting a creature back is just drawing a card (and is really nice w/ utility guys like Pridemage and Ooze, though sometimes that trigger obviously does nothing).

I'm still happy with the list as it is.

[sdematt]

Sometimes you just run into shit matchups and there's not much you can do. I wouldn't be too worried.

Against Delver, it depends on your build. I both like and dislike discard against them. You can't really board out removal or creatures, since that's your winning gameplan. Liliana can be really good, but is too far into the Daze/Pierce curve. I have 2 EE and 1 Ooze to bring in, so I'd likely swap out the 3 Liliana and keep the 5 pieces of 1-CMC discard in.

-Matt

[maharis]

Went 3-1 last night beating Infect, Enchantress and Sneak & Show and losing to Punishing Jund.

The Jund matchup was brutal, she won the roll and I mulled to 6, got Thoughtseized, then she had turn 2 Grove, which I wasted only for her to play a Bob and draw a Grove to it. In game 2 I made a misplay with my Sylvan and a Relic of Progenitus, stacking the cards incorrectly and she Seized away my SoFaF when I meant to draw a StP that would've at least bought me another turn against her board of Goyf, DRS, and BBE into Punishing Fire.

Speaking of Relic, I decided to play it over RiP because I felt it made Lingering Souls, Scooze and DRS better while still being a panic button against Goyf/Dredge/Reanimator. What is everyone's GY hate of choice? I like to have at least one Cage available as well as something that nukes GYs.

[Goblin Cabdriver]

I've always been a little wary of going full-bore into Junk because I lack Goyfs, but I've been listening to Matt pumping Sylvan Library's tires for so long that I just decided to screw it and play a variation of his list. Tonight I took this to a 4-round tournament:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bitterblossom

.

We play similar lists, I recommend trying out 1 GSZ and 1 Dryad Arbor over ooze #2 and wasteland #4. The GSZ can get your teegs post-board and gets arbor for cabal therapy shenanigans. Arbor can carry a sword if needed as well.

[tescrin]

Speaking of Relic, I decided to play it over RiP because I felt it made Lingering Souls, Scooze and DRS better while still being a panic button against Goyf/Dredge/Reanimator. What is everyone's GY hate of choice? I like to have at least one Cage available as well as something that nukes GYs.

I tend to run:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb


I often had a MD Bog with Knight, but at the moment it'll be cut; so I'm unsure if I'll be happy with my composition of just those next to DRS. Nihil Spellbomb >>>>> Relic of Progenitus IMO. The reasons being that it's live T1 and you don't have to hit yourself (which with running Goyf or KotR, you want them big); further you don't have to leave mana up to pop it; only to get the cantrip. I may add a pair of Surgicals, but I don't know. Relic/RiP are for non-Goyf/DRS decks for the most part.

I will say that if you ran a Loam or two in the side you'd have a much better game against Jund. They're so mana heavy (Pfire, BBE, Lily, Hymn) that locking them out is cake. Also, Lingering Souls is quite amazing against Pfire (simply because it takes so much effort to remove.)

[sdematt]

I tend to run:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb


I often had a MD Bog with Knight, but at the moment it'll be cut; so I'm unsure if I'll be happy with my composition of just those next to DRS. Nihil Spellbomb >>>>> Relic of Progenitus IMO. The reasons being that it's live T1 and you don't have to hit yourself (which with running Goyf or KotR, you want them big); further you don't have to leave mana up to pop it; only to get the cantrip. I may add a pair of Surgicals, but I don't know. Relic/RiP are for non-Goyf/DRS decks for the most part.

I will say that if you ran a Loam or two in the side you'd have a much better game against Jund. They're so mana heavy (Pfire, BBE, Lily, Hymn) that locking them out is cake. Also, Lingering Souls is quite amazing against Pfire (simply because it takes so much effort to remove.)

I think your best hate is either Cage because it also has splash hate against Elves, or Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb is active on Turn 1, and can cantrip if you need it to. Not nuking all graveyards with Relic is a good thing too. Since we have Deathrites, we can pick away at certain targets and use Spellbomb as a panic button if we need to.

Punishing Jund is one of the worse midrange matchups, since they're more midrange than we are. Ideally you stick a Feast and Famine and go to town, but the other way is Lingering Souls. Loam is a good addition for sure. I basically never lost a non-Punishing match, but Punishing it a tough grind. You hope your equipment carries you through, and you hope to maybe catch their P. Fires with Deathrites and/or Oozes. BBE is also a huge beating. To realistically win this matchup a lot, you'd need Thrun/Obstinate Baloth/more Oozes/Sylvan Safekeeper. I bring in Meddling Mages to name Punishing Fire since if they have to waste a removal on a Mage, then job well done.

-Matt

[Kael]

Anyway, wins against D&T, Storm, and a red Stompy deck; loss against Burg Delver.



You forgot to mention that you lost to a Golgari Charm in response to your EE activation :D




Against Delver, it depends on your build. I both like and dislike discard against them. You can't really board out removal or creatures, since that's your winning gameplan. Liliana can be really good, but is too far into the Daze/Pierce curve. I have 2 EE and 1 Ooze to bring in, so I'd likely swap out the 3 Liliana and keep the 5 pieces of 1-CMC discard in.



I don't like cutting Liliana against the non-Stifle Delver variants. We can't really afford to leave in Pierce against a deck with so many creatures and removal that is either A. 1 CMC or B. uncounterable. I would at least try to leave as many copies in as possible in on the play, since we're cutting 2-4 Dazes and (probably) all of the Pierces.

[Warden]

You forgot to mention that you lost to a Golgari Charm in response to your EE activation :D



I don't like cutting Liliana against the non-Stifle Delver variants. We can't really afford to leave in Pierce against a deck with so many creatures and removal that is either A. 1 CMC or B. uncounterable. I would at least try to leave as many copies in as possible in on the play, since we're cutting 2-4 Dazes and (probably) all of the Pierces.

Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.

I just asked this in the DGA thread -- how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks? I'm of the impression they are too slow. The card advantage is there, but with a deck packed full of pierce, daze, force plus burn (god forbid forked bolt), I can't see myself rely on that card for the match. I'd probably push KotR since she's got a thick juicy tushie + can dig DD/Stage/wasteland. I've played a few games of Junk vs Delver and if I need to bank on LS I'm in a world of hurt. Then decks like BUG pack DRS to eat the souls straight up.

[tescrin]

@Kael
I almost went into the Highlights of the MUs as the tourny was full of them (RiP + Sanctity, topdeck EE on Storm goblins, Forest + Swamp against blood moon every game, EE into charm..)



-I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside.
-Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3?
-how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks?

I keep Lily but she is a bit slow and can't hit what you want against a threat heavy board. Since I run 4 I could see potentially cutting 2 for more efficient removal. I'd probably cut this before discard the next time, depending on the delver variant. Her downside is that she costs 3 and her Edict is stifle-able.

They cut counters because Decay and DRS make them pretty garbage. If they have Snare they'll use it of course.
Also, Daze can be awkward tempo wise if you have a hand with 2-drops as they can actually lose tempo on a bad Daze.

Lingering Souls is slow-ish, but it's resilient to discard (Team America) and it's obnoxious for them to counter. See the Daze problem above. Blocking Delver (or killing it) can be pretty relevant. It's noteworthy that Lingering Souls is also basically removal for Delver itself and if it's not, it races pretty well and stalls goyf for a long time.
Also, why did you let a DRS live?

[sdematt]

Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.

I just asked this in the DGA thread -- how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks? I'm of the impression they are too slow. The card advantage is there, but with a deck packed full of pierce, daze, force plus burn (god forbid forked bolt), I can't see myself rely on that card for the match. I'd probably push KotR since she's got a thick juicy tushie + can dig DD/Stage/wasteland. I've played a few games of Junk vs Delver and if I need to bank on LS I'm in a world of hurt. Then decks like BUG pack DRS to eat the souls straight up.

Souls is a good bait for Pierce/Daze if nothing else, and it will seal games. Being able to deal with Delver or chump block Goyfs is a big deal. As well, it's another creature to carry Equipment. I usually leave them in, but I agree, they don't always resolve.

-Matt

[Kael]

Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.


Pierce doesn't hit Decay, and you can usually hold on long enough to resolve a Plow through a Pierce anyways. I might keep in a few on the draw just to stop Lili/Equipment, but it's one of the worst cards in the matchup.

I'm not really sure if there's any sort of consensus on how to board though, given how much Junk lists tend to vary.

[Warden]

...Lingering Souls is slow-ish, but it's resilient to discard (Team America) and it's obnoxious for them to counter. See the Daze problem above. Blocking Delver (or killing it) can be pretty relevant. It's noteworthy that Lingering Souls is also basically removal for Delver itself and if it's not, it races pretty well and stalls goyf for a long time.
Also, why did you let a DRS live?

^^ Sometimes I got to deal with a flipped Delver into DRS and only have 1 bullet in the chamber. One beats like a truck. The other is all around powerful. I usually go after their 1cc drop immediately but have lacked removal in the past. BUG is particularly annoying if they make you discard your answers and plop a DRS to boot.

[tescrin]

^^ Sometimes I got to deal with a flipped Delver into DRS and only have 1 bullet in the chamber. One beats like a truck. The other is all around powerful. I usually go after their 1cc drop immediately but have lacked removal in the past. BUG is particularly annoying if they make you discard your answers and plop a DRS to boot.

In our hypothetical we have Lingering Souls I think, so I'd definitely take the extra two from a pair of delver swings over letting DRS eat my out to Delver; if that makes sense. Of course, if all you had was plow and you plow'd the first guy; variance! :D

[maharis]

Abzan Charm WBG
Instant [Uncommon]

Choose one:

Exile target creature with power 3 or greater.

You draw two cards and you lose 2 life.

Distribute two +1/+1 counters among one or two target creatures.


Basically a two-mode spell at best. I can see it in some metas because it kills opposing Delvers and Goyfs or digs for answers against some combo decks. But maybe a one- or two-of at most. Costing the same as Souls or LotV is rough, as is essentially not having a third mode.

[tescrin]

I don't know, combat tricks aren't irrelevant; it's just they've never been on a useful modal spell outside of something like Funeral Charm or Lightning Bolt + fire strike.

Removal + card draw + falcon-punch a thalia, seems ok.

The real issue with the card is something along the lines of "Would you run this over Liliana? Lingering Souls? Vindicate? Library/SDT?"
And for Liliana.. it could be a maybe. The ability to not only cycle your removal but to draw with it could allow us to overload on removal slots to contain opposing decks and then find threats.

I could see people trying it as a 1-2 of until they figure out if it actually works or not.

[Warden]

I don't know, combat tricks aren't irrelevant; it's just they've never been on a useful modal spell outside of something like Funeral Charm or Lightning Bolt + fire strike.

Removal + card draw + falcon-punch a thalia, seems ok.

The real issue with the card is something along the lines of "Would you run this over Liliana? Lingering Souls? Vindicate? Library/SDT?"
And for Liliana.. it could be a maybe. The ability to not only cycle your removal but to draw with it could allow us to overload on removal slots to contain opposing decks and then find threats.

I could see people trying it as a 1-2 of until they figure out if it actually works or not.

The color requirement asks for a lot. If you do the removal option, you have a harder to cast Oblivion Ring that can't hit Emrakul. If you do the card draw, you're paying more mana than sign in blood. The flexibility of these very different spells creates the premium cost. Unfortunately, I don't think it's worth paying the premium. If I wanted value, I'd look at existing options or Gatekeeper of Malikar type flexibility.

[sdematt]

I don't think the modes are good enough to play, realistically.

If it read like this:

BWG

Choose 1:

-Destroy target non-land permanent with converted manacost 4 or less.

-Target player discards two cards of their choice. If they discard a land, gain 3 life.

-Draw 2 cards. Lose 2 life.


I'd play the shit out of this.

-Matt

[Goblin Cabdriver]

Abzan Charm WBG
Instant [Uncommon]

Choose one:

Exile target creature with power 3 or greater.

You draw two cards and you lose 2 life.

Distribute two +1/+1 counters among one or two target creatures.


Basically a two-mode spell at best. I can see it in some metas because it kills opposing Delvers and Goyfs or digs for answers against some combo decks. But maybe a one- or two-of at most. Costing the same as Souls or LotV is rough, as is essentially not having a third mode.

Damn, I was hoping this charm would be the legacy card of the set.... But it's no good for us. The first mode should have been plow. Right now it just says 'exile target goyf'. It's hard to depend on a 3 color removal spell too with all the swords flying around. Nice, versatile card in other formats though, it's good no matter what shape you're in. Awesome limited card!

[Claymore]

I've been out of the game for...a long time now. Recently moved to a city that actually plays legacy, any good Goyf Rock lists floating around? Saw sdematt's list on page 307 but I lack USea and mages, which seem to be a critical part of the sideboard plan...

[tescrin]

I guess. MMage is decent; but you can just swap for a scrub and a triplicate Thalia, she's good in every MU you'd use MMage in, better in Storm, worse in S&T, you get the picture.
MMage can also somewhat be substituted for Tidehollow sculler (as they often do the same thing.)

[sdematt]

I've been out of the game for...a long time now. Recently moved to a city that actually plays legacy, any good Goyf Rock lists floating around? Saw sdematt's list on page 307 but I lack USea and mages, which seem to be a critical part of the sideboard plan...

If you lack the Seas, I'd run a SoLaS if you don't run one in the main, and 2 extra pieces of 1-CMC hand disruption. Reasonably, the Sword will protect Teeg, and the discard will be proactive against Combo. Thalia is also fine.

Good to see you back, Claymore.

-Matt

[tescrin]

I forgot to mention that. MMage's synergy with Teeg should be replaced by something (like SoLaS) to force miracles to have an answer on hand. I play a bit weaker to fair (or to elves or something) than Matt and have a sideboard like:

3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Cage
2 Spellbomb
2 Discard (5 main)
1 SoLaS
3 Sweepers*
*[EE, Deluge, ZP, or Charm, depending on what I convince myself of that day; though I have a preference for Deluge since I don't see elves much.]

That said, as normal with boards, it's always shuffling a bit. I was a big EE guy until my list looked more like Matt's, and now I'm unsure. Deluge is certainly a nice catch all but bad against Miracles and Elves by comparison.


You'll notice that it lines up with each of Matt's suggestions. I'll probably try and get the 6th discard back into the main for a 4th sweeper in the side.

[jim111589]

so heres my deck. i do really well agenst fair decks but not reall good agenst S&S and the like. thoughts?




4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls


SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[tescrin]

:s I would have to imagine it's play error (including bad keeps.) That list should have no trouble at least going 50:50 with S&T, if not a lot better. You lilies, Knights + karakas, thalia in the side, and 6 discard; Maze and Souls are good attrition elements. The main difference is Triple goyf where I had a SFM and equip, and something else (Bojuka bog?) and a mildly different removal package (4 3 3 instead of 2 4 4)

Seeing how similar it is to my list from two-three weeks ago the key things are:
1-Fetch basics G2/3 and get DRS online. Don't lose like that. Don't side out Decay's either.

2a-Try to keep hands that screw with S&T. If they can't profitably S&T (Except a god hand with S&T, Sneak, and fat.) This means, KotR, Karakas, Lily, maybe discard that can hit Sneak.

2b-Related to the above: Don't blow your load unless you have to (this is a good lesson in general.) You want them to screw themselves; put them in the position to gamble and eventually you'll either win or they'll gamble badly (or they'll have the nuts and you die.)

2c-Related to 2a & 2b, force them to discard the fat, not the enabler. S&T can not only help you/screw them, the fat is what wins. topdecked Sneak does nothing without the fat. You could say the same about the enabler, but in this case only 4 of their enablers matter to you. Feel free to gain two off of discarded fat if you have time, though I'm not sure if it's worth doing over hitting them for 2.

3-You're aggro, remember that it's a race. Goyf before Bob, SFM before KotR, etc..

4-Aggressively wasteland any red sources you can. It won't happen often; but it's crucial to keep them off red.

Bring in Thalia, Teeg, Tutor, Needle; drop Loam, Plows, probably Jitte. Depending on your position Needle may be better of Gris than on Sneak. I.E. if you have a bunch of Souls + Lily, you can just eat anything that comes down and force them to Sneak you.

Feel free to swap Choke for Ensnaring Bridge. It's pretty good against them :). Also, IMO, EE > bridge. Comes down T1 against Storm so they can't discard it out, instant speed against elves, does something against miracles, and it's even probably better for Merfolk and the like (where you can get nasty 2-for-1s or better.)



I like your list, but IMO you'll eventually have to face facts, running no library manipulation with all three big threats will start costing you eventually I think. I had tops which were nice for Combo if you slowed them down at all (as I could dig *a lot* for hate.) Library gives you an (arguably better) way to do this.

The reason you have so much action in your deck is because you lack the ability to play from the top of your library well; which will eventually start costing you against fair and unfair decks alike. The best course of action on that front is to drop SFM, Goyf, or KotR and swap in said manipulation; which would give you a near identical list to one of mine.

[sdematt]

In general, I can say the matchup isn't wonderful. Sometimes you flat-out lose.


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls


SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

You're already running Knight, meaning you're leaps and bounds above the rest of us in this matchup. If you want to reliably screw them, your sideboard is good but requires more Pithing Needle to shut off Sneak Attack. Krosan Grip would also help, especially with the few amount of red sources (Grip Sneak in response to fetch, etc.).

I'd move your sideboard to:

SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Most FaF to the maindeck and bump it to 61. In this matchup, you'd want to bring in:

1 Grip
1 Tutor
2 Needle
2 Teeg
2 Thalia

And bring out:

3 Lingering Souls
4 STP
1 Life from the Loam (although you could debate this).

Meddling Mage really shines in this matchup since topdecks are real things, especially in this matchup. You're pretty well prepared. Basically, if you can, never actually cast Knight since they'll counter it. If you can, slam Knight off of Show and Tell and if you can, Needle the Sneak Attack. Teeg means they have to Show and Tell, Thalia slows them down, and Tutor will help you get Needle. They play no bounce basically anymore, so Needle will really lock them out, as with Karakas.

-Matt

[jim111589]

ok so maybe -3 goyf and +1 hymn +2 library or vice versa?

[tescrin]

That might be alright. I'll admit that I miss my KotR package, I'd say it depends on how much Dredge/S&T you have in your meta vs. how much Delver/DRS, just because Goyf is much easier to cast and much harder to shrink.

[jim111589]

Actually I tried taking the hymns out for 2 library and its working out really well

[sdematt]

Actually I tried taking the hymns out for 2 library and its working out really well

I've been pleased with Library for over 2 years. It really shined during my finish at SCG Seattle over Top, and I've never looked back.

-Matt

[ThediscoPower]

I've been pleased with Library for over 2 years. It really shined during my finish at SCG Seattle over Top, and I've never looked back.

-Matt

Same experience. Library is the card that looks like a card you can probably live without, but then you play 1 in your deck, it crushes someone, and then you play another, and realize how you rarely ever lose with it on the board.

[maharis]

Let's hope this infect trend continues because in my experience we are heavily favored. Like 75%. They are very soft to discard, Jitte, Wasteland, and Lingering Souls.

[sdematt]

Let's hope this infect trend continues because in my experience we are heavily favored. Like 75%. They are very soft to discard, Jitte, Wasteland, and Lingering Souls.

Yeah. After board, it's like:

3 STP
4 Decay
2 EE
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jitte

19 cards that kill stuff or nut them. Hope they have the god hand.

-Matt

[maharis]

Split the finals of a small tournament tonight (3 rounds, proxies allowed) and I didn't even fake Goyfs. Beat Miracles and monoblack reanimator/hexdepths. Played out the finals and lost in 3 to tezzaffinity when I didn't draw any decays or grips in game 3.... ugh.

Had a sick game 3 vs. Miracles: t1 DRS, t2 Teeg, t3 Bitterblossom/SFM. He never was able to find a swords. Definitely think this will be what I run in Edison in a couple weeks, just have to figure out if I'm gonna be able to borrow Goyfs or just go with Scoozes.

[Megadeus]

If Goyf-less, would you rather run the full set of scooze or whatever? Or maybe up the pridemage count? I don't know your list, just kinda curious. I always loved Pridemage. One of my favorite men. Played a full 4 in Zoo a few months back for awhile.

[nedleeds]

Yeah. After board, it's like:

3 STP
4 Decay
2 EE
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jitte

19 cards that kill stuff or nut them. Hope they have the god hand.

-Matt

You forgot Wasteland.

[maharis]

If Goyf-less, would you rather run the full set of scooze or whatever? Or maybe up the pridemage count? I don't know your list, just kinda curious. I always loved Pridemage. One of my favorite men. Played a full 4 in Zoo a few months back for awhile.

I've been testing a lot of different configurations. Tonight I ran 4 DRS, 4 SFM, 3 Bob, 2 Scooze, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 GSZ (& 3 Souls). I've run Pridemage though with more GSZ, and cut the GSZs completely to run 3 Kitchen Finks (very good against Bolt, Decay, & burn). Next week I want to try a KOTR package — I just have to pick some up.

There's an SCG in a couple weeks and I'll have to make a call then:
—Lots of burn: Finks
—Lots of S&S: KOTR
—Lots of Miracles: Pridemage

There is also a chance I'll just say screw it and run my Death's Shadow Rock deck because GSZ for Varolz, scavenge Death's Shadow onto Faerie Rogue, attack for 14 is sweet.

[tescrin]

—Lots of S&S: KOTR

KotR is also good for Grave decks; he was solely responsible for me going 3-0 in the beginning of the last SCG. Had my deck been better tuned and such I think I would've gotten farther than my meager 5-4.


In other news,

This week I went 2-2, beating Oops/Reanimator and losing to BUG-fit and a somewhat near-miss with Elves. G1 he had a god hand to my Discard + SFM. G2 he mulls to death and dies to fat. G3 I miss a land drop and DRS has no food, so EE misses the critical turn and Progenitus comes in with 3 buddies keeping it safe. (Fetchland, 2 DRS.) Had I not missed the land-drop or that EE been a Deluge he would've been hellbent against a Lily + Goyf + Removal; but alas..

After goyf I'm heading back to KotR for a bit as our shop just got chalk full of grave/legendary decks. (12-Post, Storm, Dredge, Oops, Reanimator, BUG Fit.) I like the trump card that KotR often is ("I'm bigger than you") as well as having more control over how big he is and the waste spam he can represent. I'm shifting to more 1-drop cards and away from Equips for right now to free up more mana since I'm heavier on 3-drops again. I'll post more in a few days.

[maharis]

KotR is also good for Grave decks; he was solely responsible for me going 3-0 in the beginning of the last SCG. Had my deck been better tuned and such I think I would've gotten farther than my meager 5-4.

Because of Bojuka Bog or Karakas-bouncing their whatever? I am on the fence about Bog, there's so many tempo decks at an SCG I don't want to be in the situation of having to play tapped nonbasic swamp on turn 1-2. At least Karakas comes into play untapped. I don't think I'd bother with any Stage-Depths nonsense either for the same reason. I don't know if I'd play anything more than the one Karakas and maybe a Cabal Pit for general weenies.

[Warden]

Because of Bojuka Bog or Karakas-bouncing their whatever? I am on the fence about Bog, there's so many tempo decks at an SCG I don't want to be in the situation of having to play tapped nonbasic swamp on turn 1-2. At least Karakas comes into play untapped. I don't think I'd bother with any Stage-Depths nonsense either for the same reason. I don't know if I'd play anything more than the one Karakas and maybe a Cabal Pit for general weenies.

I didn't do so hot at a 80+ man event. I rocked Maverick but my comments are relevant:
1. DD/Stage gives you random wins you shouldn't otherwise have had. I actually turned a would-be draw (3 mins to go as we started G3) into an auto-win
2. KotR is considerably better with protection. Although she's arguably the best 3 drop creature in Legacy (TNN being the only real competition), she isn't the star. In Maverick, KotR is great because of Mom and Thalia. I would run KotR in tandem with Goyfs, Zenith, and/or discard. I don't think KotR is terribly strong with the Souls +SFM plan.
*I don't have time to further articulate, but assuming you can protect KotR, by all means run her. If you're on the fence about running her, it may be more efficient to go with another threat. The deeper argument should be "how do I best protect KotR"...that's where you need to see how to beat the top tier stuff at the moment.

@Bog: I'm not a fan. If I want 0cc GY hate, I opt for surgical.
@GY Hate: RIP is the best in the format. You either nuke graves or don't. I just ran 2x Surgical this past weekend and felt it should have been 2x RIP like I had at 'Cuse.
@Cabal Pit: Too cute. If you want to destroy weenie swarm decks, Toxic Deluge has been the real deal 3 events in a row for me. Hell, you could play Junk midrange and run a few maindeck.

[tescrin]

Because of Bojuka Bog or Karakas-bouncing their whatever? I am on the fence about Bog, there's so many tempo decks at an SCG I don't want to be in the situation of having to play tapped nonbasic swamp on turn 1-2. At least Karakas comes into play untapped. I don't think I'd bother with any Stage-Depths nonsense either for the same reason. I don't know if I'd play anything more than the one Karakas and maybe a Cabal Pit for general weenies.

Yes on the Bog. Karakas + Bog is about the only reason to play Junk with KotR. (Cabal Pit is definitely good to have though.)
Worrying about tempo decks due to a 1-of land that you could just Mulligan on a deck that's pretty strong to delver isn't a big thing; it still (as the below illustrates) can help in the MU as well.

RUG Delver - Threshold, Goyf
BUG Delver - Goyf, Stalker
Dredge - Lock out the game if you have DRS.
Loam - Lose your loam, your lands, and play fair
Pfire Decks - Waste them and end the nonsense.
Reanimator - Eat multiple fatties to lock out the game
Storm - Cut off threshold and PiF plans

Other cards it hits: Lingering Souls, Snapcaster, opposing KotR,


Playing KotR over goyf means a few things:
-You have a slower deck. You're playing "Jack of all Trades" style, rather than going for the faster "Punch you to death" route; being slower by a turn and by 1-2 damage for awhile is compensated only if you can increase your game against a lot of decks.

-You're planning on your late game being better. Having options makes the "better late game" plan a lot easier; such as nuking Nic Fit's grave so they can't come back. Nuking Pfire or Loam decks puts them behind and disrupts their game plan; allowing them a late game means you're setting up a deck that wants to go long but can't compete.

-Bog (if you notice in the above decks) compensates your slower game against other combo decks by allowing you to keep them off of their contingency plans; I.E. PiF, storing a slew of fatties to overwhelm DRS, and simply punishing dredge

-It already weakens you against Tempo and Miracles in general; without Bog, it weakens you against everything but S&S, 12-Post and Reanimator while further opening you to Snap-Plows and grave-based tempo creatures


Karakas is the main reason you run him, Bog is a helpful compensator the myriad MUs he just makes worse; and IMO is mandatory. Cabal Pit is debatable; I rarely fetched it; but knowing you have a trump card for topdecked Crusaders, Mom, or just having infinite removal next to a lucky Loam find gives you obligatory late-game against creature decks by simply being bigger + crappy-pfire.



While I'm not Topping SCGs at the moment, I've been using KotR for ~8 months straight; that Bog wins games over and over. That Pit is rarely a problem and with how much D&T exists, it's worth having a fetchable trump to their biggest beater. It also means letting Mom live is ok sometimes. I'll half agree with Warden and say it does not substitute sweepers.

[sdematt]

I liked KotR prior to the printing of Deathrite Shaman as well as TNN. Even after DRS was printed, I was still using her. She's quite good. But, she still bites a STP or Decay very easily and it's a totally separate game plan. I don't truly think it's compatible with SFM nor Lingering Souls due to the mana requirements. The issue with her in recent memory is:

1) 3 mana
2) Chumped by TNN all day long (but less of an issue now)
3) No evasion

Now, she also competes in a slot with Liliana. Which do you play first? Ones double Black, one's GW. It's tough on the mana, as well. More 3 drops means your curve for Dark Confidant gets a tad worse. If I were to run KotR right now, here's what I'd run:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith/Dryad Arbor
24

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
15

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
1 Reanimate

The reasoning here is you want a bit more discard to clear the way for Knight. 4 Knight I've found to be overkill. You only play 3 Liliana and 3 Knight to lower your curve a bit. Loam interacts well with Knight so you can machine gun lands away. Unearth is there for the Abrupt Decays your Knight will take, as well as being able to steal Goyfs or TNN's from your opponent, or bring back Dredged targets.

Your sideboard likely has to gun a bit more against TNN since your maindeck isn't really doing it like with SFM. Maybe something like:

3 Zealous Persecution
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
2 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage

-Matt

[maharis]

Hm, OK. Thanks guys. So I will either try bog or just stick with Scoozes. I guess the deck is pretty good against S&S, I just would love to drop knight, untap, get karakas against them.

[crow_mw]

Unearth is there for the Abrupt Decays your Knight will take, as well as being able to steal Goyfs or TNN's from your opponent, or bring back Dredged targets.


This got me slightly excited, but sadly Unearth can only target cards in your GY. Reanimate does hit enemy cards though.

Having said that, I would really like to start using KotR again. She has been 2/2 for 3 mana quite often though. Perhaps I should try Matts list, but there are two things I would rather have different approach to.

1) I would like to have GSZs, to more consistently have a shot at landing one of the 6 three mana cost cards on turn 2.
2) I would like to have some non-GY dependent win-condition alongside. With DRS + Goyf + Knight opponent lands RiP and you are immediately a sad panda.

[tescrin]

Now, she also competes in a slot with Liliana. Which do you play first? Ones double Black, one's GW. It's tough on the mana, as well.

If you're already paranoid and fetching basics; I often curved out with, Swamp->Forest->Scrubland; which enough to cast everything on curve except Plow; which just means you play a bit less carefully. It can be iffy mana for sure.

This is *very* similar to a list I ran two weeks ago; though the list gets torn up by RiPs pretty badly, but otherwise it's got a lot of fat dudes. Where you have Unearth, Reanimate, and Arbor/Maze I had triple Souls. The souls are nice for TNN simply because a single souls card is enough to race it.


If I were to run KotR right now, here's what I'd run:

Minor differences noted below
3 Marsh Flats ->4
1 Windswept Heath ->0
1 Plains ->0
1 Maze of Ith/Dryad Arbor ->0


3 Dark Confidant -> 4
3 Liliana of the Veil -> 4
4 Swords to Plowshares ->3

3 Sylvan Library ->Top
1 Unearth ->0
1 Reanimate ->0

3 Lingering souls

Arbor is a lot worse without Equips/GSZ; so I avoid it, especially next to Bog. Maze is alright, but most of the time Karakas or Cabal Pit fix the issue; and it's a really lame draw/opener against an astounding number of decks. I like it, but I haven't missed it. It often doesn't feel bad and it usually feels good, but I think it's a confirmation bias thing. I'm trying it in the side in KotR lists for now.

Without equips I'm trying out Sorin since Mega has had success with it in DGA. Sorin ups the miracles game, makes souls a lot better (since the list lacks equips) and cranks out garbage 2/1s (or bigger) that by themselves race TNN (lifelink.) I was somewhat against him, but he's the only way to perma-pump the souls while being an ok card and without equips.

I'm unsure on my KotR, Lily, Souls composition; which in the current brew is 4/4/3 next to a 2-of Sorin. I'll probably aim to lower the curve as you have before the weekly LGS.
I imagine I'll drop a Lily for Discard #7 and a KotR for a Plow. If I get real gutsy I may

[ironclad8690]

Just went 3-0 with this list.

Round 1 BRUG Delver - He wins game 1 off of mana screw. I win games two and three by hitting all of my land drops, him not finding wasteland in time, and because Lingering Souls are REALLY good against delver.

Round 2 RUG Delver - I win game 1 because of multiple lingering souls and Deathrite, I win game 2 because of Choke combined with equips & lingering souls.

Round 3 Miracles - I win game 1 using batterskull and Lingering Soul tokens. He wins game 2 with an entreat after I choked him (I had no pressure for most of the game). Game 3 I revoke his top after several lingering souls/termini go off, and he never finds a way to get rid of my revoker. I take down a jace that he plays, and I eventually grab my Sword of Fire and Ice and go to town with Spirit of the Labyrinth, Deathrite, and Revoker.

I think Lingering Souls is very well-poised right now, for what it's worth.

Also, Sensei's Divining Top is really good against Sneak & Show post-board. It is so sweet E tutoring in response to a show an tell and then drawing with Top into an answer permanent which can then be put in play.

The only downside to this deck is that the equipments are the only real "fat", and if they get taken out by countermagic or removal you can be hard pressed to present a real clock.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Rest in Peace

[maharis]

went 1-2 at my weekly last night. Lost a close one to UR delver, then beat Sneak & Show when he mulliganed into oblivion in every game, then mulliganed myself into oblivion against Zombies. After that, I decided to call it a night rather than play round 4 because I was pretty tilted losing to the Zombie deck with 4 MD DRS, 3 STP, 2 Scooze, and more hate in the board. However, it was due to my poor mulliganing decisions that I lost.

People seem pretty into this Treasure Cruise thing. Seems like Teeg is a good place to be. How about ways to protect him? Worth trying for a Lightning Greaves? Or just tear their hand apart of removal and stick him?

[iamajellydonut]

People seem pretty into this Treasure Cruise thing. Seems like Teeg is a good place to be. How about ways to protect him? Worth trying for a Lightning Greaves? Or just tear their hand apart of removal and stick him?

Mom+Teeg is a surefire way to 100% lock out the game against anyone considering Treasure Cruise, but honestly, Gaddock "Too Good" Teeg is enough on his own. All in all, I feel like Junk and Jund are very well positioned against this onslaught of Cruises, not to mention Death and Taxes and Elves. Speaking with regards to only Junk...

We have Teeg. We have the Empress (may she live forever). We have an optional non-reliance on graveyard, enabling a broad spectrum of effective hate. We have Chains (or Spirit) in the board. We have Ooze. It may even be prudent to add another Library if you're not already "maxed".

[sdematt]

Mom+Teeg is a surefire way to 100% lock out the game against anyone considering Treasure Cruise, but honestly, Gaddock "Too Good" Teeg is enough on his own. All in all, I feel like Junk and Jund are very well positioned against this onslaught of Cruises, not to mention Death and Taxes and Elves. Speaking with regards to only Junk...

We have Teeg. We have the Empress (may she live forever). We have an optional non-reliance on graveyard, enabling a broad spectrum of effective hate. We have Chains (or Spirit) in the board. We have Ooze. It may even be prudent to add another Library if you're not already "maxed".

We're definitely well position in the meta, but who wants to buy more than 1 Bayou and Scrublands, am I right?

I think Treasure Cruise, while being one of the worst names in recent Magic memory, just doesn't cut the mustard. You may still get to run DRS in those decks, but you exclude yourself from running Tarmogoyf, the new Delve removal spell, Snapcaster Mage, and many other graveyard dependent cards. I think people will be trying it, but Visions is likely better, most of the time.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Does anyone play mom in addition to deathrite in this deck? I do really like the idea of playing mom and hate bears, but maybe I should just play maverick then. Not playing deathrite just seems so wrong in a GB/x deck. Will anyone be upping their teeg count with these new spells entering the format?

[iamajellydonut]

Will anyone be upping their teeg count with these new spells entering the format?

I mean, Teeg has been very well positioned for quite some time now. If you're not running at least one in the main and another somewhere in the seventy-five already, you're doing it wrong.

[maharis]

I'm thinking about changing to this board:

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor

I still feel a little soft to S&T with only 5 discard spells main, but the O-ring could help. Just trying to decide on Pridemage vs. Krosan Grip. Pridemage is GSZ-able unless Teeg is out which could be a problem vs. Miracles. Then again, if I have a live teeg vs. miracles, it's possible I don't care about Countertop. Plus, if it beats Teeg out onto the field, it's a clock that represents a threat to their CB.

[maharis]

We're definitely well position in the meta, but who wants to buy more than 1 Bayou and Scrublands, am I right?

Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library are just so powerful, Matt, and I have your podcast to thank for showing me the light. I have a 70% winrate against blue decks and 50% against nonblue decks since I started playing those cards. When I was on Dega, it was 45% vs. blue and 65% vs. nonblue. When I was on straight BW deadguy it was about the same as that. Almost all the cards are the same, except being able to find Decay to kill Counterbalance goes a long, long way.

[sdematt]

Does anyone play mom in addition to deathrite in this deck? I do really like the idea of playing mom and hate bears, but maybe I should just play maverick then. Not playing deathrite just seems so wrong in a GB/x deck. Will anyone be upping their teeg count with these new spells entering the format?

I'm already at 3 and 3 Meddling Mage, so I'm fine. But, others should consider moving their counts up to at least 2. I think Pleasure Cruise is a card that isn't good enough since it does restrict you in what you can be playing. I don't see what card it replaces, or in which decks.



I'm thinking about changing to this board:

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor

I still feel a little soft to S&T with only 5 discard spells main, but the O-ring could help. Just trying to decide on Pridemage vs. Krosan Grip. Pridemage is GSZ-able unless Teeg is out which could be a problem vs. Miracles. Then again, if I have a live teeg vs. miracles, it's possible I don't care about Countertop. Plus, if it beats Teeg out onto the field, it's a clock that represents a threat to their CB.

O-Ring is really slow. I really don't like the card at all anymore, tutorboard or otherwise. Grip is better against Miracles, Pridemage is better since it can swing in. Grip is a more unexpected blowout, though. I think if you're trying to find an edge against Sneak and Show, just run with Ensnaring Bridge.


Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library are just so powerful, Matt, and I have your podcast to thank for showing me the light. I have a 70% winrate against blue decks and 50% against nonblue decks since I started playing those cards. When I was on Dega, it was 45% vs. blue and 65% vs. nonblue. When I was on straight BW deadguy it was about the same as that. Almost all the cards are the same, except being able to find Decay to kill Counterbalance goes a long, long way.

I'm glad it helped :)

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Does anyone play mom in addition to deathrite in this deck? I do really like the idea of playing mom and hate bears, but maybe I should just play maverick then. Not playing deathrite just seems so wrong in a GB/x deck. Will anyone be upping their teeg count with these new spells entering the format?

I play Mother of Runes all the time, the 'dies to TNN' hate cry of the internet just doesn't make sense to me. She's still the best proactive 1 drop in a hate bear deck. For a deck trying to get Liliana online on turn 2 DRS is probably better, but a deck filled with 2 drop hatebears Mother is way better (or Olle).

The other play is turn 1 targeted discard, turn 2 hatebear but if your opponent is on a brainstorm deck removal is just one U away.

[sdematt]

Sylvan Safekeeper is a hell of a card.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Does anyone run main board Thalia anymore? Or is it not worth it with the high amount of strong 2-4 cost non creature spells in these colors?

[ironclad8690]

Does anyone run main board Thalia anymore? Or is it not worth it with the high amount of strong 2-4 cost non creature spells in these colors?

I have tried playing matches with a traditional Rock list (way more spells than Maverick) with maindeck Thalia, and I just found that the dis-synergy with the rest of the deck wasn't where I wanted to be.

In my experiences with this deck lately, Liliana is the key to winning a lot of matches. Thalia was consistently slowing me down from disrupting my opponents and felt clunky with discard and abrupt decay.

I would certainly play her in a more typical dark maverick list, but either in the board or not at all in Rock.

[Megadeus]

I have tried playing matches with a traditional Rock list (way more spells than Maverick) with maindeck Thalia, and I just found that the dis-synergy with the rest of the deck wasn't where I wanted to be.

In my experiences with this deck lately, Liliana is the key to winning a lot of matches. Thalia was consistently slowing me down from disrupting my opponents and felt clunky with discard and abrupt decay.

I would certainly play her in a more typical dark maverick list, but either in the board or not at all in Rock.

Fair. I just keep thinking of how sick a DRS into Thalia plus wasteland opening is and it makes me wanna play her. Maybe I should just be playing maverick though

[tescrin]

I have tried playing matches with a traditional Rock list (way more spells than Maverick) with maindeck Thalia, and I just found that the dis-synergy with the rest of the deck wasn't where I wanted to be.

In my experiences with this deck lately, Liliana is the key to winning a lot of matches. Thalia was consistently slowing me down from disrupting my opponents and felt clunky with discard and abrupt decay.

I would certainly play her in a more typical dark maverick list, but either in the board or not at all in Rock.

Agreed in general. I tried her in the main, and she was *ok* but I would have rather had stronger fair games. The difference between hatebears, discard, and counterspells are that Discard/Counters are good enough to main without building around them, where as hatebears just kinda... blow.

I prefer Hatebears in the side simply because you're unlikely to lucksack your way to Thalia against Storm G1 unless she's in an already acceptable keep. In the side you know the MU and what a keepable hand looks like; and this has been my general feeling with anything but 1CMC discard or Liliana in the deck. Unless they're already so nice to have in the main that they help make hands; things like Thalia, Blind Obedience (I tried that), MD Teeg without GSZs, and similar; are just hoping you lucksack into combo-wins which is why it weakens the deck as a whole.

I also agree with Lily. If you keep the board relatively clear and land her, it is very hard for people to come back unless they happen to be a Lingering Souls deck (which is basically only the mirror.) The thing about Thalia and "her" decks, is that they have 1CMC removal and everything else is built with non-creature in mind; where as a deck like Junk wants Decay and Lily to be the workhorses and she gums up the works. She makes for weird sequencing of plays too; where you think "I'm going to slow their removal and establish a board presence" and the opponent drops a Bob or Goyf. Well great, now you're behind and taxing your own removal!


That said, I think she's absolutely killer in the side. I bring her in against all combo (she works on Dredge, Storm, and helps quite a bit with S&T by slowing them for you to chain discard/wastelands.) MMage may be better if you're dedicated to the meta-game or get a lucky/opportune call on an opponent, and Sculler, Canonist, or other bears could make sense in other metas. I will say, this isn't a deck that appreciates her as much against delver or anything. If you have dead cards, sure, but she slows your removal and helps them manascrew you; so unlike Mav or D&T, she is not helpful here.

[Megadeus]

Despite it maybe being a blurred line of maverick and junk, this is what I'd like to try out. The mana base needs some work so if anyone has any suggestions on what the distribution of duals should be, feel free to chime in:

4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Mother of Runes

3 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Dark Confidant

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Loxodon Smiter

2 Qasali Pridemage

2 Serra Avenger


4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Batterskull

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Umezawas Jitte


23 Lands with 4 wastelands

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think I'd much rather have something like lingering souls in place of serra avenger even though it doesn't play nice with thalia. Avenger is just so annoying to play with if you aren't using aether vial and dropping it saves you from needing double white to cast anything.

For your current list though this seems like a decent starting point after counting up a rough mana symbol distribution of 13 black, 11 green, and 22 white;

4 windswept heath
3 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 bayou
3 scrubland
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 karakas
4 wasteland

[Warden]

@tescrin: Excellent analysis.

@Discard: What's everyone running nowadays? 4 TS, 3 Liliana? Any maindeck Hymns/IoK?

[tescrin]

I'd also rather see Goyfs in the Smiter slots, or Scooze, or 1 Scooze 2GSZ.
Just about anything else.

Smiter can't swing through Goyfs, BSK, TNN, Stalker, or even Mandrills. He's a board stall at best and putting you way behind at worst. I think Howling Mandrills will give you better results if you want a counterbalance proof 4/4 who can trump goyf but I think Goyf is likely your best bet.

I'll also agree that Avenger looks super awkward; if you want a flyer I'd grab Oona's Prowler, Lingering Souls (despite Thalia), or if you don't want a flyer those are perfect spots for GSZs or more Revokers.

Something to consider is that Goyf, Hierarch, QPM lists used to exist; simply because Goyf gets even bigger (trumping opposing Goyfs) which gives you leverage to decide how the game plays out. I'm not sure why there's no such thing as QPM Goyf list right now; but I'd venture it's DRS and Maverick's faults.

[Megadeus]

What about instead of Serra Avenger, I play like Mindcensor? It flies, and can blow people out. I'm already heavy on two drops anyway. Also gets to ambush walkers?

[Kael]

What about instead of Serra Avenger, I play like Mindcensor? It flies, and can blow people out. I'm already heavy on two drops anyway. Also gets to ambush walkers?

Are you not already pretty heavy on 3-drops as well? Nearly every Junk list I've seen seems to have an issue with that slot.

[maharis]

@Discard: What's everyone running nowadays? 4 TS, 3 Liliana? Any maindeck Hymns/IoK?

I run 4 Thoughtseize and a single Cabal Therapy at the 1 slot with 3 Lilianas. For a long time I did 3 TS/2 IOK split to save some life, but I got burned a few times when I would IOK a Sneak & Show player and see something like 2 Sneak, 2 Griz, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Volc. Not hitting Batterskull is also a real thing in Stoneforge mirrors.

I like Therapy in the main as a one-of because you very rarely die turn 1, and usually if you're going to die turn 2, you'll know how it will go and can name the card that will kill you. It also has strong utility in Stoneforge mirrors, gives you an out to Bob if you need it, is live when discarded to Liliana and eats Souls tokens/Dryad Arbor if you need.

I love Liliana & Souls but I feel like 2.5 is the right number of each. Sometimes I get stuck with an awkward hand of 2 Lilis, 2 Souls, 2 lands and a wasteland or something and have to mull but feel bad doing it. Especially on the play, it would be nice if one of those cards was a Hymn. But Hymn is only good early and both those cards are great late.


What about instead of Serra Avenger, I play like Mindcensor? It flies, and can blow people out. I'm already heavy on two drops anyway. Also gets to ambush walkers?

I love mindcensor. I would definitely play it over Avenger. Think about this:

You: Deathrite, pass.
Them: Fetch, pass.
You: Wasteland, pass with everything open.
Them: Fetch. You flash Mindcensor in response. They brick.
You: untap, Wasteland the land they do have, play Thalia. And another land of yours because of course.

However, I think the deck you have will suffer the same issues that my Dega taxing build had: Tarmogoyf/TNN and Miracles. Though you do get access to a couple decays, you're taxing them yourself, and it's only 2 of them in a deck where the only CA is 3 Bobs. And you have no way to beat a TNN besides flying over with Mindcensor or using Mom proactively. (Or SoFI, but it's slow). Mirran Crusader can help a bit with Goyf, but it can be slow as well. And Terminus is a nightmare.

I honestly would explore Bitterblossom in the main in this kind of deck. It Forcefields Goyf, carries equips over TNN, and refuels after Terminus. It's 2B under Thalia which isn't terrible. Trouble is the lifeloss can be a thing with Bob. And Decay is a nightmare vs. Goyf decks. Scooze solves both problems and is a hatebear as well. If you want to try it, of course.

[nedleeds]

Despite it maybe being a blurred line of maverick and junk, this is what I'd like to try out. The mana base needs some work so if anyone has any suggestions on what the distribution of duals should be, feel free to chime in:

4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Mother of Runes

3 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Dark Confidant

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Loxodon Smiter

2 Qasali Pridemage

2 Serra Avenger


4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Batterskull

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Umezawas Jitte


23 Lands with 4 wastelands

I personally think if you aren't running Goyf you should be running Scavenging Ooze. I also think if you aren't running Sylvan Library you'd better have a good excuse (like playing 3 x Spirit of the Labia)

[tescrin]

@Warden
I think Matt runs 5-6 discard. I used to run 5 and currently run 6 (split between IoK and TS; as I don't like seeing multiple TS against fair decks.) I would love to run 7 (which is the absolute max I'd recommend, probably even post-sideboard) but we'll see. There was a time I ran 5 1CMC discard with 2-3 Hymns, but I saw too many dead cards each game, so I'm trying to find that sweet spot. 1CMC discard (as I mentioned a page or two ago) is also nice just as a way to lower your curve and reliably interact with Delver.

I should mention that I only cite matt often because he's the quintessential Junk player of note that we see actually hover around the forum and give advice. I think, in general, your advice is also pretty strong given your slew of wins.


-------
I'll talk about my list changes a bit on Sunday if they work out. I'm trying some weirdness and still deciding on KotR vs. Goyf; but I think Goyf wins this week despite all of the grave decks I saw at the last local.

I'm still deciding on 22 or 23 lands.. I think I may go 23 with 1 Canopy even in a Goyf list; just because I'm getting really tired of Mulling 1 landers. It's probably just variance kicking me in the balls.

I also think that 3 Waste + KotR or 4 Waste + Goyf seems like the right compositions. 3 Waste with Knight because he can search them (and he makes your land base terrible) or 4 with Goyf because he can't (and you'll have a better land base already than the KotR list, so you have some room.) This and canopy as an "extra" land are things I'd certainly like to hear others talk about.


------

EDIT: I think I've refined my question/answer. 6th discard or 23rd land (Canopy)?

[Megadeus]

Testing revealed pretty much what I expected last night. I was pretty solid at fighting blue decks, but versus non blue, my men were just not strong enough. I wouldn't hate having hierarch over deathrites just to make my men more formidable in battle. I guess I really should just be on more a maverick game plan. Back to the drawing board for me

[maharis]

Don't tell my boss, but instead of working I played 5 games this morning against Bob Huang's winner from last night (put the deck on TappedOut against my own). I went 4-1, but they were close. I actually really like playing Bob's deck, might be time to buy Volcs. Monastery Swiftspear is the real deal. In one game I was able to play two Cruises in the same turn with one on the table and attack for I think 5 between those and the stuff I did in between (which I think was Ponder and bolt a DRS). Junk did win that game though.

Sofi is completely insane against the deck. Since none of the creatures are big on their own, especially on our turn, connecting with one allows us to clean up their board and draw into more removal/blockers. Since I don't play Goyfs, Swiftspear scares me a bit. If you do it should be less of a problem. Since I play more Souls, Delver is the creature I tend to ignore on their end since half of Souls kills it. If you play Dryad Arbor, don't forget you can fetch it out to carry your sword at the end of their turn. Can be huge blowout.

I really hope someone is playing this deck tonight at our local because I bet it's a blast to play against live.

Lili seems terrible against this deck. Yes, please discard all your cards except treasure cruise and sacrifice an elemental token. Yuck. I think my board plan would be:

-3 Liliana of the Veil
-3 Dark Confidant
-1 Sword of Feast & Famine
-1 Cabal Therapy

+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Zealous Persecution
+1 Engineered Plague (on human, which hits all their creatures, hence boarding out Bob. Possible you could set it to elemental if Young Pyro has already gotten out of control)
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Ethersworn Canonist

[maharis]

Went 2-2 at my local beating Turbo Eldrazi and 4-color cascade before losing to elves and tezz. I think Matt is right about ensnaring bridge, def wish I had that thing a couple times tonight.

[Jain_Mor]

I'm planning on going to GP Kyoto so looking to become more active :)
Some questions for all you veterans:

How many Decays do you keep in against counter balance decks?
What's your experience with Krosan grip? What other matchups do you bring it in against if it were in your sideboard?

In modern you side out all your discard for active threats against other Grindy midrange decks, do you do the same in legacy? What decks do you side your discard out against, if any?

This is with respect to a traditional Junk Rock build, goyf bob liliana thoughtsieze etc
Thanks :)

[Megadeus]

I tend to keep in Thought seize against other Stoneforge decks. Stripping their BSkull and leaving them with squire is generally a fine play

[ironclad8690]

I'm planning on going to GP Kyoto so looking to become more active :)
Some questions for all you veterans:

How many Decays do you keep in against counter balance decks?
What's your experience with Krosan grip? What other matchups do you bring it in against if it were in your sideboard?

In modern you side out all your discard for active threats against other Grindy midrange decks, do you do the same in legacy? What decks do you side your discard out against, if any?

This is with respect to a traditional Junk Rock build, goyf bob liliana thoughtsieze etc
Thanks :)

I play Jund, but the sideboarding principles are generally pretty similar.

I like to keep in all Abrupt Decays against counterbalance decks. My reasoning is this: they don't always sideboard out counterbalance. If you get counter top locked after boarding out some number of decays, you'd better have a way around it; and abrupt decay remains a versatile answer to Rest in Peace/Counterbalance/Angel Token/Blood Moon/Top if they fetch etc. Also you never know if you might need to kill a thopter assembly (or was it foundry?) If they start sword of the meeking thopters.

Krosan Grip is a great card to board in vs Miracles, UWR Delver, Stoneblade Decks, Tezzeret decks, Affinity, Painter, Death and Taxes, Maverick, the mirror match, and many others. It is worth playing in non e tutor board if you don't want disenchant, and sometimes worth playing in an e tutor board as well. Some people prefer to play Pithing Needle of Phyrexian Revoker and forgo Artifact/Enchantment Removal, but I think you definitely want 1-2 slots.

The faster aggro (Delver, Tribal) can justify taking out your discard. Usually you have things that are just better in the sideboard like Golgari Charm, E Plague, or other sweepers.

You probably want to board out pinpoint discard vs other midrange while leaving in Hymn if you play it.

Hope this helps!

[sdematt]

I'm planning on going to GP Kyoto so looking to become more active :)
Some questions for all you veterans:

How many Decays do you keep in against counter balance decks?
What's your experience with Krosan grip? What other matchups do you bring it in against if it were in your sideboard?

In modern you side out all your discard for active threats against other Grindy midrange decks, do you do the same in legacy? What decks do you side your discard out against, if any?

This is with respect to a traditional Junk Rock build, goyf bob liliana thoughtsieze etc
Thanks :)

Thanks for your post!

Against Counterbalance decks, namely Miracles, you want to keep all your decays in, in my opinion. Here's my reasoning. If they do the plan of boarding out Counterbalance to bring in stuff like Rest in Peace, you want Decay for that stuff as well. If they board out Counterbalances for more instants and such, you still want Decay to plug Angel tokens at times, or just to hit Top. Nugging Top in response to fetchlands is one of the key interactions that we have to getting that bloody thing off the table. The selection it provides is insane - it's similar to how every time, they should Force of Will our Sylvan Library. All in all, keep your Decays in. They can range anywhere from being amazing to being mediocre, but you will want them.

Grip is a VERY good card and at times, sees too little play. Where do you want it? Counterbalance, but mostly for Top. It hits Batterskull and other equipment. It can also be clutch against random cards like Smokestack, Moat, Humility, etc. It can be relevant against Storm, as well as Omni-Tell (which WILL come back because of Dig Through Time...the deck is very solid. Pack your Grips and Teegs, people) and Sneak Attack. It's most relevant, matchup percentage wise, in the Stoneforge mirrors since the other decks can remove the creatures, but hardly ever the equipment.

Usually, in mirror matches like Jund, I take out my discard. My reasoning? IF the matchup is going long, you don't want to draw discard if everyone's hands are gone. You want solid threats that'll stick or more removal for their threats. Against Stoneforge decks, you can shave discard, but like someone said, you want to sometimes take TNN/Batterskull/Jace out of their hand. In my case, I shave Inquisitions of Kozilek and keep the Thoughtseizes in, but also bring in Grips/Zealous Persecutions (for TNN/Souls/Equipment).

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks gentleman, that does help. I'm currently try to tune my sideboard and maindeck with eachother to be a well oiled machine. Limit the amount of dead cards in each matchup etc. so this is where I am at right now.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thougthseize
2 Therapy/IoK
3 Liliana of the Veil
38

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction

So for miracles, generally:
-2 StP -1 Jitte -2 Therapy/IoK? -1 something? Decay?
+2 Teeg +1 ETutor? +1 Needle +1 Choke +1 SoLaS

See there's a card missing to take out, which makes me think something isn't adjusted correctly.
I want the Tutor so I can shut them out if I want to with choke and have an emergency button for Jace or top
Pulse kills all the tokens and Jace etc
Teeg is god, and SoLaS protects him. I consider cutting Dryad arbor because of terminus etc, but being able to fetch him eot and equip is so good. But the fact I don't want to greensun zenith into her maybe means I should cut her.

Thoughts, plus list thoughts?

[tescrin]

@matt
I've actually been thinking of running Nature's Claim for a bit. The tempo potential seems really good in all-but-the miracles MU; but I've been making what I'd call the "Innistrad Standard" version of the deck; which should have good game against Miracles.

My mild testing with Sorin says that he's an Ok replacement for equipment if you wish to run Lingering Souls but feel any weirdness. He can be a really slow stall card at times, but the synergy with Souls for an easy 8-12 power flying is too fun. Breaking Goyf stalls or enhancing the top end of your other stuff feels ok as well.

[Megadeus]

Not a huge fan of claim. I understand it is pretty awesome against equipment and such because leaving mana open for it doesn't project what you have, but being locked out by counterbalance/top, and being unable to kill a chalice seems like it is not worth it

[maharis]

I don't know many Miracles players who actually go through with boarding out Counterbalance, it's why they play the deck. STP is worse against them so I usually take that out for whatever extra hate I'm bringing in. Needle, Grip, Teeg, and Decay hit just about any Miracles wincon, even wonky stuff like Thopter Foundry. It's why we're so favored in the matchup.

[tescrin]

I roughly agree, hence why I haven't put it in; though Chalice decks are rare and you don't need to side in dead cards against live ones.
Claim is good for Leylines and such too I should mention, which is a main attraction if he's speaking Omnitell. 3 Mana tax before discard can come online seems steep if you want to win against a deck that can go off T3 with ease and potentially sooner. If you don't have a hatebear in hand and they have a Leyline hand, you basically just lose. Claim can get you to discard town T2 no problem.

Claim is basically only worse in the super-fringe Chalice MU (where Decay and having a good deck should save you) and Miracles, but we could always find ways to buff that MU; you have plenty in your sideboard you don't bring in against them as it is.

Another way to go would be trying to find room for QPMs and maybe GSZs (overload the X against Miracles or chalice) but you'll have the same speed issue against Leylines.

[iamajellydonut]

Nature's Claim is... so unnecessary. Yes, it costs 1cc, but that has little bearing on its strategic effectiveness save against bad fringe decks. Many of which you care about the clock.



-3 Dark Confidant

+1 Engineered Plague (on human, which hits all their creatures, hence boarding out Bob. Possible you could set it to elemental if Young Pyro has already gotten out of control)

I would just like to note that this is a terrible plan with no reasonable justification. Yes, you could hit Engineered Plague and yes you could name Human and yes that would kill Dark Confidant, but then again, it's a one-of and if you windmill down an Engineered Plague it doesn't matter what the hell you've drawn, you win the war. Dark Confidant is remarkably good to the point where he is even relevant even in match-ups against Burn where losing life would ordinarily be counterintuitive. Any reason you could possibly come up with for cutting Dark Confidant is not a reasonable one, and this isn't even close to being one of the better bad reasons.

Assuming we're going off something relatively similar to your last posted list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=832325&viewfull=1#post832325) (ie: no goyf similar core), there are quite a few different things you can and should do. However, strictly with regards to Dark Confidant, Nihil Spellbomb is a waste of slots. If it's your only option to delay a Treasure Cruise, sure, toss it in. I am in a few lists, though I find Relic is better since it can single-handedly shut down any Treasure Cruises beyond the first. But you have two Oozes mainboard, Gaddock Teegs, and a whole lot of discard that has dick and less to do after a while. In short, it's an investment that makes your deck inconsistent without returns other than overkill. I would even go as far to say that a Wasteland could come out for a Dark Confidant.

[tescrin]

Nature's Claim is... so unnecessary. Yes, it costs 1cc, but that has little bearing on its strategic effectiveness save against bad fringe decks. Many of which you care about the clock.
I feel like you're missing the point. It's not there for Leylines the deck; it's a conversation on the potential for Omnitell to be a DTB again. It's there if you want a non-grip way to deal with Omnitell (or possibly S&T, D&T or some other deck that random'd into a Leyline of Sanctity.) In the case of S&T or Omnitell, you need it off the field in the early turns to interact with them reliably; thus having something cost two less is hugely relevant.

The fact that it has massive tempo gains against SFM decks means it's not irrelevant. The *only* reasons I see not to use it are:
-You forgot you're in legacy and think 4 life matters in a fair match.
-You need the slot for miracles and want it to be a naturalize effect so it's portable against other decks (and thus, Grip.)
-You face a lot of chalice decks

Also, Gripping through a Thalia vs. Claiming through a Thalia.. I feel like that's enough of a thing. It's also potentially relevant against Burn decks I should point out; especially against Smash to Smithereens (where a 7 point life swing is huge.)



I'm not claiming it's the end-all be-all of legacy; but dismissing it out of hand because of Chalice decks or because of life gain is retarded. Again, if you feel the slot belongs to Miracles, then ok. If you feel (in a month or three) that it belongs to Omnitell or some other LoS deck, it may be good to be allowed to target them. EDIT (in a meaningful timeframe.)

[iamajellydonut]

I'm not claiming it's the end-all be-all of legacy; but dismissing it out of hand because of Chalice decks or because of life gain is retarded. Again, if you feel the slot belongs to Miracles, then ok. If you feel (in a month or three) that it belongs to Omnitell or some other LoS deck

You make a pretty convincing argument, but I think I'll stick with Krosan Grip.

[maharis]

I would just like to note that this is a terrible plan with no reasonable justification. Yes, you could hit Engineered Plague and yes you could name Human and yes that would kill Dark Confidant, but then again, it's a one-of and if you windmill down an Engineered Plague it doesn't matter what the hell you've drawn, you win the war. Dark Confidant is remarkably good to the point where he is even relevant even in match-ups against Burn where losing life would ordinarily be counterintuitive. Any reason you could possibly come up with for cutting Dark Confidant is not a reasonable one, and this isn't even close to being one of the better bad reasons.

Assuming we're going off something relatively similar to your last posted list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=832325&viewfull=1#post832325) (ie: no goyf similar core), there are quite a few different things you can and should do. However, strictly with regards to Dark Confidant, Nihil Spellbomb is a waste of slots. If it's your only option to delay a Treasure Cruise, sure, toss it in. I am in a few lists, though I find Relic is better since it can single-handedly shut down any Treasure Cruises beyond the first. But you have two Oozes mainboard, Gaddock Teegs, and a whole lot of discard that has dick and less to do after a while. In short, it's an investment that makes your deck inconsistent without returns other than overkill. I would even go as far to say that a Wasteland could come out for a Dark Confidant.

I also came up with it after 5 goldfish testing games... I just thought it was interesting to see how we would handle this "new" deck. Either way, board out bob or not, we are incredibly favored.

The only way we ever lose to that deck is by getting raced. They play 16 cantrips and are very light on removal and threats. Nothing has evasion but Delver. It's almost impossible for us to lose with our superior card quality. Doing damage to ourselves is really not so great.

We are bringing in three creatures to replace the Bob body. All three live in combat against elemental token or unbuffed swiftspear (this is very relevant). All three cut off the "advantage" they get from playing lots of cantrips: Teeg by shutting down "the big one" and Canonist by not letting them chain stuff into their Pyro or Swiftspear. Keeping in Thoughtseize allows us to take their impact cards and leave them digging for answers with their cantrips — if they can even cast them.

Anyway, do what you gotta if you play the deck. Honestly, as fun as it is to bash in with like a 5/6 swiftspear, I am a little surprised it won the open. I think UR is just well positioned against the open meta of other delver/blade decks because it's so fast.

[sdematt]

I also came up with it after 5 goldfish testing games... I just thought it was interesting to see how we would handle this "new" deck. Either way, board out bob or not, we are incredibly favored.

The only way we ever lose to that deck is by getting raced. They play 16 cantrips and are very light on removal and threats. Nothing has evasion but Delver. It's almost impossible for us to lose with our superior card quality. Doing damage to ourselves is really not so great.

We are bringing in three creatures to replace the Bob body. All three live in combat against elemental token or unbuffed swiftspear (this is very relevant). All three cut off the "advantage" they get from playing lots of cantrips: Teeg by shutting down "the big one" and Canonist by not letting them chain stuff into their Pyro or Swiftspear. Keeping in Thoughtseize allows us to take their impact cards and leave them digging for answers with their cantrips — if they can even cast them.

Anyway, do what you gotta if you play the deck. Honestly, as fun as it is to bash in with like a 5/6 swiftspear, I am a little surprised it won the open. I think UR is just well positioned against the open meta of other delver/blade decks because it's so fast.

It won because Bob Huang is an excellent player who understands Legacy and the meta, and was playing Treasure Cruise before anyone was prepared for it.

As for Claim vs. Grip, the main arguments are:

1) Are you playing it against Miracles?
2) How much Thalia vs. Chalice of the Void are in your meta?
3) Where the OmniTell at?

Reasonably, Grip is at its best against Omni and Miracles. Being able to get rid of Top without waiting for a fetch is great. In addition, late game Miracles players, or good ones, can get around having their Top nuked by Decay.

Claim is cheaper to cast, and you could use the life gain in your favour, I agree. However, in certain matchups, you need to have it resolve. In Omni, they'll just Wish in response and get you anyway, or just counter it. Gripping Omni in response to Enter the Infinite is a hell of a play.

-Matt

[tescrin]

Claim is cheaper to cast, and you could use the life gain in your favour, I agree. However, in certain matchups, you need to have it resolve. In Omni, they'll just Wish in response and get you anyway, or just counter it. Gripping Omni in response to Enter the Infinite is a hell of a play.
Hm, I'm unsure how I feel on this. I was thinking you were talking about Leyline of Sanctity. Gripping Omni itself sounds extraordinarily dangerous. It feels like they'd be able to dream halls or Omni again since they'll have S&T available again. Further, at the discard step they'll keep a perfect hand and go off again next turn (with Emmy shuffling the discard back into the library so you won't win off of card draw); won't they?

Unless I'm missing something important, it seems like they get to "Demonic Tutor for Seven" with the drawback that they got 2-for-1'd; hence why I was thinking you were talking about LoS and getting your discard in there (which is the only reason I brought up the card.)

[sdematt]

Depends on the play situation. Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to blow up the Leyline EOT then start pouring in the discard, and you just have to go for it.

The best play is Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Krosan Grip, backed by discard, is pretty game over for them.

I realize that post Enter the Infinite, they shall sculpt. But, buying a turn can win you....the game! Also, they don't have to discard all those lovely cards until next turn, but like I said, giving you time to lay down a Teeg or something could win you the game.

-Matt

[maharis]

It won because Bob Huang is an excellent player who understands Legacy and the meta, and was playing Treasure Cruise before anyone was prepared for it.

Totally agree, didn't meant to imply otherwise. Bob is a great player. I just meant that I've found myself drawing cantrips into cantrips in noodling around with the deck. It's lots of fun and explosive, but I wouldn't want to play against a deck like ours packing Decay, Teeg, and Zealous Persecution in the 75.

[Warden]

Is it wrong to want to bring Toxic Deluge into the mix for this evolving meta? Assuming there's a surge in Cruise-Delver (the new UR thing) and Elves -- this card can just wipe the table.

UR is explosive and burn heavy but lacks protection. A well-timed removal spell ends them. I'm figuring Deluge can fire off for x = 2 or 3 to clear their board. Deluge is nuts against Elves -- letting you X-for-1 them at a minimal cost.

@Jain_Mor:
I like some of the ideas in your list. I think you have competing strategies in terms of threats. I'd personally push Sylvan instead of GSZ /Lingering/SFM as all 3 seek attention (Matt it correct is saying we need it).

[tescrin]

I'm pretty big on Deluge in the side. Last Elves match I had I was a mana short for EE due to missing a land drop (competing DRSs and no fetches on my end slowed me down..) and Deluge would've eaten the Prog + Dudes and lead to a probable win. I've also had it in hand against Reanimator and had several times where a game was lost or close because I only had 1-at-a-time removal.

It's more on the control end of the spectrum; but I think it's good.

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks Warden, I designed it to make sure I always had a proactive play turn 1. Having 6 Goyfs is also amazing and 4 teegs out of the board seems necessary, so I'll be keeping the GSuns. SFM is one of the main reasons to play white, and without her souls fall a bit flat. So she stays. Souls are amazing with equipment but really slow in some matchups. They were in the sideboard previously. But I guess I can cut them completely. Without souls, dryad arbor becomes even more important as a creature that is instant speed and can always be around

-2 Souls, +1 Library +1 SFM/SoFaI/Lili/StP/nothing?

[Warden]

I'm sure Matt can give input here as well (regarding these last few posts). If you have SFM x3 and Equips x2, I think that's fine. I don't think the 4th SFM is needed to fetch out B.Skull and Jitte. Although souls is good, I don't think they would help against the new UR thing, plus bob pings you for quite a bunch (3 to the dome is a lot in general + this deck looks to blow you out fast).

-2 souls
+1 library (2nd one in main)
+1 teeg (turns off cruise, trouble for miracles, stops NO + opens room in SB for card #15) / stp #3?

That's how I read it. I could see F&I flex over pulse, but I think M.Pulse is well positioned right now as a catch-all + eats tokens. It also backs up your plan of 2 STP/4 Decay as removal #7. Could potentially shift to 3 STP/3 AD/1 Pulse...not sure how much of a ripple effect that is. And again, I like a lot of the ideas you presented.

[Jain_Mor]

I agree. I really want pulse right now. Thanks for the input.
I basically started my deck like this.
I want 6 1 mana discard spells
I want 6 mana dorks
I want 6 removal spells at least 2 must be 1 mana
4 goyfs
4 Bob
3-4lili/pulse
3 SFM+2Equip
And at least one library
Then fill in the blanks, which they're aren't many of haha. It's the sideboard where all the tweaking is tbh

It's actually a 61 card deck at the moment, so the 2nd souls doesn't have to be replace with anything.
I think if I were going to run a 1 of creature main deck it would Scooze (though we don't always have too much green mana out) or QPM, since he wins goyf wars, is a beater and his ability is randomly useful.

I always think about 3Stp/3Decay, but I decided I want my maindeck to be versatile as possible, and decay just hits more things. Playing StP is just a concession to creatures existing :P

Though that said, if I played QPM, that would relieve some pressure from decay and then I could play 3 StPs lowering my curve etc

[sdematt]

I agree. I really want pulse right now. Thanks for the input.
I basically started my deck like this.
I want 6 1 mana discard spells
I want 6 mana dorks
I want 6 removal spells at least 2 must be 1 mana
4 goyfs
4 Bob
3-4lili/pulse
3 SFM+2Equip
And at least one library
Then fill in the blanks, which they're aren't many of haha. It's the sideboard where all the tweaking is tbh

It's actually a 61 card deck at the moment, so the 2nd souls doesn't have to be replace with anything.
I think if I were going to run a 1 of creature main deck it would Scooze (though we don't always have too much green mana out) or QPM, since he wins goyf wars, is a beater and his ability is randomly useful.

I always think about 3Stp/3Decay, but I decided I want my maindeck to be versatile as possible, and decay just hits more things. Playing StP is just a concession to creatures existing :P

Though that said, if I played QPM, that would relieve some pressure from decay and then I could play 3 StPs lowering my curve etc

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thougthseize
2 Therapy/IoK
3 Liliana of the Veil
38

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction

This is your current deck. The below is what it could be, and realistically, should be.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

I personally think you want to have the full 4 SFM, 3 Equipment for the fair matchups, and bring stuff out of the board to pound the unfair matchups. You're undervaluing how good STP is and how situationally good Pulse is. Cabal Therapy is fine in the main, but could easily be moved to the board. Your black mana ratio is a bit low, but you should be okay. Don't underestimate Sylvan Library.

Your sideboard need a bit of work, in my opinion. You don't need two tutors, that doesn't do a whole ton for you. Just play more good stuff. If you're dead set on the E. Tutor package, I'd go with the following:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spirit of the Labrynth/Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Safekeeper (since you're running more Zenith, this dude is a house against Miracles since he hardlocks and is great in the midrange mirrors)
1 Open (this could be Warmth if you expect some burn, more gravehate, Ensnaring Bridge for Sneak, etc.)

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks Matt :)

The list you gave seems good (and I do want to try Safekeeper, even though I love SoLaS)
But how would you sideboard with that list against, say a stock miracles deck?
It seems like there are too many cards in your board that you would want, 2 needles, 3
teegs, 1 Safekeeper, grip? Spirit? And not enough cards to take out?

1 Jitte, 3 StP, 2 therapy? Is it the SFM package you take out? Cause then lingering souls is bad? I find souls and equipment really taxes their removal. But maybe you take all that out?

That's what I'm trying to base most concepts off, there's no point having Krosan grips in my board if I have no room to bring them in :/ I feel like I must be missing something obvious with the list you sent

I also think you're greatly underestimating Humility, it's one of my favourite
cards and can shut down so many decks :) Dredge, Elves,
goblins, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, etcetcetc even midrange decks if they don't have equipment like we do

[sdematt]

I think you can run Humility if you run at least 3-4 Souls. That way, you outgrind them with tokens. Believe me, I've played Humilities in the board for a while and eventually moved past them. :)

Against Miracles, some of your best cards are Lingering Souls and Equipment. Don't underestimate Dryad Arbor, especially with a SOFI sitting in play. It's really solid, especially when Terminus shuffles it all back for you :)

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spirit of the Labrynth/Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

For a stock Miracles list, you want these cards from your board:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

That's 10 cards. We need to find 10 cuts.

Cut 3 STP since they're bad.
Cut 1 land, either a Waste or something, since they're not pressuring your manabase.
Cut 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Thoughtseize since 3 discard is enough; you'll never want to see it late-game.
Cut 3 Goyf. Sounds weird, but if they do decide to bring in RIP, he's an awkward creature to have since he's a 0/1, or even if you kill it, he's small-ish.

So your list ends up becoming:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

It's pretty impressive. You lock out Top, Jace, Terminus, Verdict, Entreat, and Counterbalance with these cards. It forces them down VERY narrow lines that are hard for them to get out of.

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Wow, yah, I never thought to cut Goyf in any matchup, interesting.

Ok, I getcha, thanks :)

Humility is great as long as you have souls or jitte or Batterskull or SoFaI

IoK has been really lackluster for me and I don't think I'm experienced enough with the format to run therapy well enough. So I'm going to cut those two either for the 4th stone forge and a Batterskull or 2 hymns. Probably the former and do what you said, dedicate the side to the unfair matchups and grit my teeth game 1 :/

[sdematt]

Meddling mage is a hell of a card ;)

[Jain_Mor]

Meddling mage is a hell of a card ;)

Haha yea, I like that innovation a lot. But I still need to get my Junk duals first :P
For any people getting into legacy, FYI it's obviously not optimal but totally doable to play shock lands. I've beaten all the popular decks, even burn. You have basics shaman and life gain cards, you can still play competitively while working towards duals :)

Matt, are you going to any big tournaments soon? Have you put the pedal to the meddle, or so to speak..

[sdematt]

Haha yea, I like that innovation a lot. But I still need to get my Junk duals first :P
For any people getting into legacy, FYI it's obviously not optimal but totally doable to play shock lands. I've beaten all the popular decks, even burn. You have basics shaman and life gain cards, you can still play competitively while working towards duals :)

Matt, are you going to any big tournaments soon? Have you put the pedal to the meddle, or so to speak..

I'll be playing in the Vancouver Legacy Classic, which usually a 50+ person event that I host. I played the Mage at SCG Portland and came 19th on breakers (my friend clinched the 16th spot, and I think Joe Lossett was 18th). I can dig up my report, if you want.

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

I'll be playing in the Vancouver Legacy Classic, which usually a 50+ person event that I host. I played the Mage at SCG Portland and came 19th on breakers (my friend clinched the 16th spot, and I think Joe Lossett was 18th). I can dig up my report, if you want.

-Matt

That's freaking sweet! If it's in this thread I will find it :)
Will your tournament be on twitch?

[sdematt]

That's freaking sweet! If it's in this thread I will find it :)
Will your tournament be on twitch?

I'll try :)

-Matt

[tescrin]

Went 4-0 (7-3) last night with the below. It's helped to solidify my belief in KotR builds.

Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Blind Obedience
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thoughtseize
3 Toxic Deluge


MU 1: D&T
G1 - Not very impressive. He mulls to 5; gets wasted out
G2 - He gets a very good start, I mull to 6; he has leyline and I mistakenly play a Lily anyway making her very ineffective. It grinds for a bit and I die to flyers. Between shakey mana and his ports + wastes I just couldn't get anywhere.
G3 - The grind is real. I answer his dudes over and over and he misses a Bob (who finds more answers.) In time I get a sorin, -2 him, and start dropping Lingering Souls; beating in for 4 flying til he dies. By the end, I've lily'd a guy, had several combat trades, plow'd 3 more and decay'd 3 more with a decay floating.

MU 2: ANT
G1 - I don't know what he's on and keep a reasonable fair keep of Double Bob, KotR. I pull a thoughtseize and that trips him up for a little bit, but ultimately I get Agony'd.
G2 - I mull to 5, but it has three lands and a Thoughtseize and a top? I TS. He durdles. I rip Thalia, and start finding good stuff. KotR eats his grave while I'm wasting and Lilying.
G3 - I keep a Top, Lily, Deluge, Thoughtseize hand, he eats my top IIRC. I slow him up and find a Thalia again. Sweet. For this MU I boarded everything but Loam, boarding out Pit, Sorin, Plows, Decays, and Souls (14.)

MU 3: TES (Really!? I was paired down too making it weirder.)
G1 - This guy is normally on DGA, so I keep an excellent fair hand. I die a sad death with a Sick KotR and a Lily. Had I played backwards KotR might have Bogg'd him.
G2 - I keep discard, Blind Obediance, Lily, KotR. I play as you'd expect and even though he ANs, BO shuts down the artifact mana and he can't finish going off. YEAAHHHHHHHHHH. Lily + KotR eating the (huge) grave and an eventual hatebear seal the deal.
G3 - I keep Discard, Teeg, and a bunch of random stuff. He drops 8 goblins T1. I find a Deluge and beat him to death with 4 health remaining.

MU 4: BUG Delve Delver
We technically ID but I go 1-0-1 with him (with it likely becoming 2-0)
G1 - It's slow going as I have to stall with Lingering Souls, but eventually he's got nothing and I have everything.
G2 - I'm behind for most of the game but stabilize at ~6 health facing two DRS with my own on the field. I find my answers and the end boardstate is that we both have nothing, but the top cards reveal I had souls + removal coming up; I had already killed/exiled 4 of his Goyfs and 3 of his delvers; with 2-3 DRS killed as well.


I wasn't expecting as much combo as their was, but my typical 6 hatebear 7 discard board saved the day a bit. KotR's gravehate is as amazing as I always say it is (it's seriously awesome) and fetching a couple wastelands was nice. Blind Obedience felt bad instead of a bear, but I think it's better against Elves than most sideboard options (especially since it fringe hates on so many random things.) I'll keep it as a 1-of and try it some more.

I think I'm actually 4 - 1 in MUs against ANT/TES with Junk (where the loss was a lethal-on-board grindy game.) I think the postboard is so strong and the fetching-bojuka bog so uncommon that players (especially less experienced) decide to rely on PiF and get blown out. I should play Kael a bit since he's a better player and used to the MU; but I'm definitely feeling very comfortable with it.

Sorin felt fine. His Crusade emblem feels very good next to Souls, and a 3/1 bob feels good too. I know Megadues is big on him vs. Miracles and I think I'll keep him around instead of equips for the short term since we have ~10-15% miracles players. He and Souls feel strong in fair MUs in general and are nice obvious side-out cards as well.

The quadlazer approach feels good too (and always has honestly.) Top did a lot of work over the day; making 10-13 removal feel like 20+, saving a card in hand against an opposing Lily activation, and cantripping it's multiples away; saving me from loads of Bob-damage and even eating discard. Deluge felt a little weird, but at the moment I would only replace it with Marsh Casualties I think; there are too many X/2s I feel to do anything else, but I like that Deluge can hit weird things (Prog, reanimator, etc..) and play around combat tricks (ZP.)

[maharis]

I'm really tempted to try that tomorrow, Tescrin. I love Toxic Deluge right now.

[Warden]

I'm really tempted to try that tomorrow, Tescrin. I love Toxic Deluge right now.

Toxic is INSANE in the meta right now. If the deck plays creatures, Deluge will beat them. I mopped up Elves with a KotR on the field. A lucky and incredible feeling.

@Tescrin:
I like that you played KotR with Souls sans SFM. Did Bob ever deal a ton of damage to you? You have a lot of 3 drops.

Question for everyone. I'm sorry I'm stirring the pot on this again: Natural Order.
I am debating about using NO in a transforming SB vs going balls-to-the-walls for NO JUNK.dec.
We can pack discard/decay/Liliana + 8 dorks (DRS, Noble). There are also packages I saw on some older winning NO decklists that gave me ideas:
-Primetime into DD/Combo or Utility Lands
-Elderscale Wurm against Burn/Delver
-Progenitus to 2 hit anyone
-Ruric Thar against Combo, Miracles

'Hoof is elves' business. I'd like to beat down with a decent "goodstuffs + discard" list with the option to NO for the above cards. I'm thinking about NO again since blue decks are shaving counterspells for decays and burn. When Daze + FoW are your only lines of protection, discard + NO are going to be problematic.

[ironclad8690]

Toxic is INSANE in the meta right now. If the deck plays creatures, Deluge will beat them. I mopped up Elves with a KotR on the field. A lucky and incredible feeling.

@Tescrin:
I like that you played KotR with Souls sans SFM. Did Bob ever deal a ton of damage to you? You have a lot of 3 drops.

Question for everyone. I'm sorry I'm stirring the pot on this again: Natural Order.
I am debating about using NO in a transforming SB vs going balls-to-the-walls for NO JUNK.dec.
We can pack discard/decay/Liliana + 8 dorks (DRS, Noble). There are also packages I saw on some older winning NO decklists that gave me ideas:
-Primetime into DD/Combo or Utility Lands
-Elderscale Wurm against Burn/Delver
-Progenitus to 2 hit anyone
-Ruric Thar against Combo, Miracles

'Hoof is elves' business. I'd like to beat down with a decent "goodstuffs + discard" list with the option to NO for the above cards. I'm thinking about NO again since blue decks are shaving counterspells for decays and burn. When Daze + FoW are your only lines of protection, discard + NO are going to be problematic.

I played that NO rock list for a while with the cards that you mentioned. The only problem with that deck is that when you take something like Junk and add natural order to it, suddenly your opponents countermagic becomes very live against you. I struggled to beat tempo, even with the discard, but didnt have many problems outside of that. If you do end up putting a NO package in there, it would probably be best for the sideboard.

Also, prime time can get glacial chasm to stall for a couple of turns against aggro.dec

[tescrin]

At this tourney he probably bolted me twice and then just pinged me here and there.

Thoughts on Bob:
-Much more dangerous without BSK or Jitte around.
-Top is much easier than SL to abuse Bob due to timing
-Top is much easier since you can flip a bad draw and turn it into a ping
-I try to mitigate it via aggressively attacking/block if I'm worried about life total. You can usually force an opponent to kill him when you want since it's rarely advantageous to leave him on the field.
-Most games I'll end in the single digits. I'm pretty liberal with my life total if they aren't on any Red/Bolts.

I'll mention that I'm very very used to playing with Bob-no-equips, so it's pretty comfortable to me. Someone who's used to Jitte making him good or BSK floating a billion life may find my list repugnant.

Thoughts on SFM:
-SL is better with SFM. The life you gain and fact it doesn't cost mana goes a long way
-I think I'd prefer the 2 SFM 3 Equip package; probably dropping 1 KotR, 2 Sorin, 1 Discard and a something (probably a waste or a Lily)

I'll say that the 3-drop problem certainly exists in that there were a couple of times where I had KotR into Lily or vice versa; however, I think KotR stands so head-and-shoulders above Goyf due to Bojuka Bog that there's not really another option. My Removal-Spam tends to get me there. This build was hedged against Miracles and Delver (ironically with all of those high costs) via Souls and 8-Swords/Decay (Delver) and 2 Sorin (Miracles.) Going back to bog is so comfortable and handy; especially with a local Nic Fit player, among other things. Random Bogs/Spellbombs kept Delver from Cruising too; which I found funny since I was just doing it because I had to.

EDIT: I'll mention that I'll probably try it this exact way again next week before jamming SFM back in.

[Megadeus]

Interesting list. Seems threat light considering Bob doesn't battle too well without weapons. KOTR provides a nice punch though.

[maharis]

Tonight was crazy. 30 people at the local, possibly up to half playing Treasure Cruise. UR, RUG, BUG... it was everywhere. We also had 3 Reanimator decks (never seen more than one at a time before, and very rarely), Miracles, Elves, 12post, Enchantress, Mono-Red Sneak, Infect. After taking a stroll around and seeing all the Cruises and draw engines, and not being able to borrow KoTRs to mimic Tescrin, this is what I settled on:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lingering Souls
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah

2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Batterskull
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Enlightened Tutor

No Liliana tonight. Spirit instead. Nonbo with Sylvan, so I grabbed what I had on me for library manipulation. Scryb Ranger was a planned addition; I wanted another 2 CMC card over a Souls due to some wonky mana issues. Ended up adding Teeg to the maindeck because oh my god Treasure Cruise. Sideboard was a mess, but did a lot of what I wanted to do. So here we go:

Rd. 1 vs. BUG delver with Treasure Cruise. Win die roll. Game 1 gets attrition-y and he topdecks better. Game 2 I win quickly when he keeps a greedy hand and I have Wasteland. So now I have to win on the draw... and I get there by drawing nothing but gas and making him burn Daze after Daze and completely flipping tempo. He's shocked at the Spirits, but has to keep me off them because his hand is full of cantrips.

Rd. 2 vs. Elves. Win die roll. Getting sick of losing to this deck. Win first game when he keeps Pendelhaven + forest and I open on Thoughtseize into Deathrite-Wasteland into SoFaF. Game 2 he wins through an E-plague and a Cage by playing Reclamation Sage to blow up my Cage then NO-ing his 1/1 Nettle Sentinel for Progenitus. Game 3 is about average till he GSZs for 9 into Hoof after ripping a Cradle. I had wasteland on board.

Rd. 3 vs. TES. Game 1 he leads Volc into Ponder. I play DRS. Next turn Sea in to Brainstorm. I waste his sea, play Stoneforge for SoFI. Next turn dig up a Therapy. Blind Therapy names Dark Ritual. He reveals one, as well as 2 LED, a Petal, and a Rite of Flame. I drop in the equip, flash back Therapy with Stoneforge clearing out his LEDs, and DRS carries SoFI to victory. Game 2 he Probes, then therapies me, taking my thoughtseize but leaving Teeg. I had a basic swamp and a fetch. I draw DRS, though, play it, next turn get Teeg down, then get a sword on him. I win without casting a discard spell because he can't beat Teeg.

Rd. 4 vs. BUG Delver without Treasure Cruise. Win die roll. Game 1 same as the other BUG matchup, we kill each other's stuff then he topdecks better thanks to his Confidant. Game 2 I keep Forest, Waste, Waste, GSZ, DRS, SFM, Top. Forest for DRS meets Force. Him: Sea into Ponder. Me: Wasteland, GSZ for 1, eats Daze. Him: Trop into Brainstorm. But I drew a fetch last turn. I gamble: double wasteland him, play Top. He sinks. Only a wasteland on his turn. I untap, play Stoneforge, go to town. Onto game 3. He has a Delver early, but I have Scryb Ranger. Later he plays double Deathrites and a Goyf while I fetch up equips with Stoneforges. He decays a SoFaF but I also have a Jitte, which I strap to Ranger. My Dryad Arbor blocks Goyf for days while I clean up his board.

End up 3-1. 3-0 vs. blue decks, only blemish is Elves.

What I learned tonight:

—I should've bought Ensnaring Bridge from the store before hand. Would've been useful often.
—Treasure Cruise is about to be Mental Misstepped. It's snowballing. I think it's a fun card, but will end up being a mistake.
—Scryb Ranger is sneaky and a lot of fun to get on the table.
—I miss Liliana, but she's so bad vs. Cruise. I don't know if Spirit is the answer but I am really glad I made the change tonight. Of course, that also made me lose Sylvan, which pains me. Maybe a little more work is needed on the list — extra GSZ maybe? but it worked out really well tonight as the cantrip-heavy blue decks cannot let Spirit resolve or live and it lets you get loose with other creatures.

[Megadeus]

Sweet list. Right when I read your opening paragraph I was hoping for some hot spirit action. Glad to hear it was good. Interesting dropping liliana. Weakens your match against TNN though. I like the list though. I'll probably steal a few ideas. I'm still being stubborn and trying a Thalia build though so it limits my non creature options a bit

[maharis]

Sweet list. Right when I read your opening paragraph I was hoping for some hot spirit action. Glad to hear it was good. Interesting dropping liliana. Weakens your match against TNN though. I like the list though. I'll probably steal a few ideas. I'm still being stubborn and trying a Thalia build though so it limits my non creature options a bit

Last night was probably the best Magic I've ever played from deck choice to lines of play. If the elves player doesn't rip his one-of Sage I go 4-0. God bless my poor opponent who was on TES, he has to fight through all the Flusterstorms people were playing to combat each other's Treasure Cruises, then he runs into hatebeardiscard.dec from me.

I definitely think we are at code red with Liliana right now. She is simply not fast enough for her edict to be meaningful: many of the most popular decks run multiple CMC 1 creatures and pile up a board fast (Elves, UR delver, BUG delver). Then there's the abject misery of using her +1 and letting them get to TC faster. I beat the BUG decks on the draw by just dropping bomb after bomb and making them use their Forces and Dazes (killing their tempo plan). More 2 CMC threats is a key.

DRS eats Daze. Spirit eats Daze. Wasteland, then they have to Force Stoneforge.
Then later DRS gets Forced. GSZ gets Dazed. Double Wasteland, they can't do anything.

Point discard is pretty good still, and Bob is a beast, but not playing Liliana (and thus taking away our need to hit double black) changes the deck quite a bit. This was the list I was planning to play if I could get my hands on KoTRs and an extra Savannah:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Sylvan Library
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Thoughtseize
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist

The idea was to get out a Knight that could survive a Deluge, and use Ajani to break board stalls by jumping equipped creatures. Ajani also makes DRS and SFM into threats (and takes them out of Deluge range) and threatens to win the game if he ults. A 3CMC walker coming down turn 2, going to 5 loyalty and starting to grow your DRS or Arbor makes some tough decision trees — if they concentrate on removing him, you just drop a bomb in the form of KoTR or SFM. If they ignore him, you wipe the board with Deluge and win with your army of cats (Even if you're at like 10 life after Deluge/fetching, that's a lot of kitties.)

I went with Sylvan over Bob and put all the discard in the board to just concentrate on the Deluge plan and finding a Knight with extra GSZs. So it's more Mavericky, but with a little bit more power to break board stalls using Ajani as an extra equipment and alt wincon. Still untested. But the point is that Liliana is really tough right now due to how the meta is shaking out. If I lived in Italy with all that Miracles and Deathblade, Lili would be a no-brainer. But the US is elf-delver crazy right now. Also, playing more Savannah than Bayou means that Council's Judgement becomes live to fight the Progenituses and TNNs of the world. This is a more controlling version of the deck, as opposed to the more aggressive hatebear version I ended up on last night (I had Dryad Militants in my hand, staring at them, before deciding to stick with DRS). But you still definitely want to accelerate with DRS or GSZ-Arbor.

This might be a little rambling and I apologize for that, but the meta is definitely shifting and it will impact us. One other thing: The hatebear plan (Spirits and Thalias) make Library a tough proposition. But we definitely need card selection. Mirri's Guile is a pale imitator, but it still allows you to needle Top against Miracles. We are still very good against them with Souls, equips, Decay, Teeg, though.

[T-101]

I played in a small tourney last night. I used sdematt's list, plus a Zealous Persecution in the board. I was expecting a good amount of Miracles, but I only saw 1 copy present, and didn't play against it. There are a handful of Miracles players who play there, but they weren't there last night. I wanted to see how the list actually ran against Miracles, but hey, if my night includes playing Legacy and NOT playing against Miracles, I'm a happy man.

Round 1 vs SnT. Game 1 he cantrips a bunch, but doesn't get the combo. Game 2 he makes an error that may have lost him the game. He casts Show and Tell, I put in Wasteland to give me a 3rd untapped land, and he puts in Sneak Attack. Then he casts Lotus Petal, and I respond with Krosan Grip on Sneak Attack. I had a decent board, including about 9 or 10 permanents, and he was at 6 or so, so I'm not sure if he had any way to win at that point either way.

Round 2 vs G/W Maverick. Game 1 I have Verdant into basic into Deathrite, which he interprets as elves. I often hope I can find lines that can masquerade as other decks, and this time it worked! Not that it ended up mattering much, but I think it impacted the order of his first couple plays. We eventually get to a long and grindy Game 3, where he goes for the Marit Lage plan. I'm at 19, he attacks for 20, and I use Jitte counters to go to 3. I untap, and begin turn 5 of turns. Bob rips land, I don't draw Swords to Plowshares... rats. He was a very pleasant player, and certainly would have killed me if there was a turn 6, so I scoop it up.

Round 3 vs G/W/r Maverick. I take Game 1 with DRS, Goyf, and a buncha removal. Game 2 I keep my 6, and it has one land + DRS plus stuff. He goes land pass, I go DRS, pass. EOT he Enlightened Tutors for Needle. Turn 2 he Needles DRS, then Wastes me. I attack with DRS and Dryad Arbor for several turns, and die to Knights.

Game 3 he begins with a Needle on DRS again, but I have mana, Bob, and Sylvan. He gets a little color screwed, and on turn 3 or 4 he taps out for Sword of Light and Shadow, with Savannah, Thespian's Stage, and Wasteland for mana. His other 2 permanents are Scooze and Needle on DRS. I had drawn 1 or 2 extra cards with Sylvan, but had seen no removal except for the Explosives I had since the beginning. I had a DRS in play, and 2 more floating on the top, and really wanted to explode the Needle, but I decided to set explosives for 2, and Waste his Savannah. He gets one more attack with a SoLaS'd up Scooze, I take the hit, he has no target for the Sword to get back, and gains 3. I explode for 2, killing his Ooze, and my Bob and Sylvan. I start smashing in with Needle'd DRSs, a Goyf, and a Dryad Arbor, while he doesn't get colored mana.

Round 4 vs Burn. Game 1 he gets me. I board out 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Sylvan Library for cards that don't kill myself. E tutor, Explosives, Zealous Persecution, Safekeeper, a Teeg, and I think even Spellbomb came in. At least it cycles, and might hit the Unearth guy. I get him Game 2. Game 3 he goes to Fireblast my 3/4 Goyf in response to me trying to equip SoFaI. I cast ZP, and get sword going. He resolves Vortex, and I end up winning at 1 life.

- - -

I like the list. Usually I make a couple adjustments to lists I find, but last night I didn't have time, and just ran with the list sdematt posted on this page, plus a ZP in the board to make 15. Lingering Souls is obviously great at carrying equipment, and I like having the option of making a flying blocker vs. Sneak and Show, even if I didn't play it right. I'll probably be able to get some testing vs. Miracles this week, and if that match works out favorably, I'll probably end up taking something similar to New Jersey.

I am personally expecting NJ to have lots of Miracles, Burn, and tons of Delver decks. I feel fine with the various Delver and Burn match ups, and if I can get to a point where I feel like Miracles is solid, then that should be enough for me to play junk at the GP.

[tescrin]

@maharis
I don't have a lot of input other than we were on obviously opposite plans. SotL seems ok, but I don't think I can be convinced off of Lily. Eating cards from their hands shouldn't fuel the grave any more than them playing the cards.
Examples:
-Fetch-land
-Cantrip
-Planeswalker you have to walk over and kill

If someone is letting Lily live so I can eat their hand, it's usually more beneficial to me than it is them; especially if I have double-edict+ or near ult. I'd rather we each do a few more tourney's, but I can't imagine dropping lily to be a positive thing. What she does to 12-post, SneakShow, Reanimator, and similar is pretty good, aside from her constant soft-lock against combo decks and fair decks alike. She's much better against Miracles than something like SotL and she kills mom-protected targets, Tnn, and similar, while forcing the opponent into an offensive position or becoming a freq 2-for-1.

SotL opens you up to ZP and GCharm effects quite a bit more, which seems worriesome. Again, we can each report back after we have some more testing; but I don't think TC will take her from Uber-Amazing to anything less.

[Megadeus]

Ialso disagree with dropping liliana in a normal list. My best strategy against decks trying to durdle and cast ancestrals like shardless was to get so far ahead on board that the CA is negligible. Liliana helps you stay ahead on board

[maharis]

No one loves Liliana more than me. But in this post-TC world she is very difficult, especially on the draw. Cruise is speeding up the format immensely. When they can just peel 3 cards right off the top after sculpting their first two turns, especially if they have a flying attacker, a 3 CMC sorcery-speed card that gets you Silenced by Spell Pierce or Daze is not where I want to be.

With any amount of cantrips in hand, especially sorcery-speed ones like Cruise, Probe, and Ponder, a turn 2 Spirit is a must-counter/must-kill. I was scared of Golgari Charm too. but it's a 1-2 of in the 75 and if they have it, good beats. If not, they can't find it because they can't dig as effectively. Meanwhile you have time to get a sword on the spirit and do other stuff. It's about forcing them out of their comfort zone.

Dropping Lili turn 2 on the play into an empty board is great, I agree. That is still real. But it is incredibly unlikely it resolves. It's so much easier to decide to Force when you have an Ancestral to refill your hand.

I also might have gone a little overboard yesterday because of the sheer number of TCs I saw running around. And like I said, Spirit might not be the solution. But Liliana was wrong for that room. Thinking of the decks you mentioned for her, even the Reanimator decks were running TC (Delve your cantrips, fetches, counters and petals, draw more combo pieces is good). Besides, both that deck and S&T can kill you before you could ever get Liliana down anyway. I would always board Lili out against Reanimator (but not Sneak.)

12-post plays Cruise too. She's not good against Elves which is also very popular. Hatebears and point discard (and Wasteland) kill Storm pretty well.

It all comes down to what you expect to see. I might have been the only person in that room last night with a Stoneforge Mystic. Miracles became less and less popular and Cruise Delver decks started to dominate. Consistent turn 3 combos like Reanimate, Infect, and Elves replaced explosive, but inconsistent Storm & S&T decks.

I could see myself putting 1 Lili back in the main and one in the board in case slower decks rebound, but the days of Shardless durdling around waiting to set up a Visions are over. 3 CMC is the new 4 CMC and even Agent is close to not cutting it.

Edit: To be clear, I am not disagreeing at all that Liliana is a sweet card, very powerful, and nigh unbeatable in certain situations. I certainly think it's defensible to keep her in. What I'm saying is that I can see the meta shifting away from decks that are cold to her. Last night reminded me of watching vintage, just bombs into bombs with counters flying all over the place and hands refilling at a moment's notice. If that's what's to come... yeesh.

[tescrin]

You would board out Lily against reanimator..? You do realize Iona on White is a lockout if you do that..?
Lily is weak to exactly one popular reanimator target, which is the double-exile guy.

Reanimator is a fine MU with just DRS + Lily + Plow, but just DRS + plow + KotR? It's alright.. but you have a non trivial chance of getting locked out by a good player barring natural karakas.


Either way, I'd rather let reports show which way is better (or if we all do good, I guess it doesn't matter :P), but I really think cutting her will lead you down a black & taxes or maverick path to make up for it.

Lily's continual CA is exactly what helps us deal with things like TC. Sure, they rip three off the top, we discard 1, edict 1 over a pair of turns, now they're back to card-neutral status, except they spent a card and mana and we didn't. It is slow CA/tempo, but it accumulates and TC (while good) doesn't make slower CA engines bad.

[maharis]

You would board out Lily against reanimator..? You do realize Iona on White is a lockout if you do that..?
Lily is weak to exactly one popular reanimator target, which is the double-exile guy.

Reanimator is a fine MU with just DRS + Lily + Plow, but just DRS + plow + KotR? It's alright.. but you have a non trivial chance of getting locked out by a good player barring natural karakas.

Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, DRS, Scooze, discard on your animation spells. The idea is to keep them from getting something into play, not trying to remove that threat if they do. At least that's how I see it...Iona on white is a lockout if they get something into play.... but if that happens, you are likely just dead.

I would board out Lili against Reanimator because I can die turn 2 when they bring out Griz. Maybe turn 3 I drop her and edict (And somehow Lili doesn't get forced). Then what do I do assuming there isn't some other huge jerk in play again the next turn? Tick her up and do half their job for them? Seems awful.


Either way, I'd rather let reports show which way is better (or if we all do good, I guess it doesn't matter :P), but I really think cutting her will lead you down a black & taxes or maverick path to make up for it.

Lily's continual CA is exactly what helps us deal with things like TC. Sure, they rip three off the top, we discard 1, edict 1 over a pair of turns, now they're back to card-neutral status, except they spent a card and mana and we didn't. It is slow CA/tempo, but it accumulates and TC (while good) doesn't make slower CA engines bad.

Believe me when I say I like your deck, love Deluge, and hope you do very well! I just think we happen to disagree on the best way to deal with these huge threats like Grisebrand or what is essentially Ancestral Recall. I am much more interested in preventing it from happening than dealing with the aftermath. I don't want to be in a position where it's like, discard here, edict here and now we're back to neutral... oh they have another.

[T-101]

I never cut Liliana against Reanimator. Sure, ticking up is bad if you Turn 2/3 Liliana, but she still offers the Edict effect, which is the best type of removal we have against Reanimator. It gets around targeting, it doesn't give them the 7 life that Swords does, and it can hit anything that they have.

Liliana's uptick also does start to do real work when the game goes beyond the first few turns. Once you find a way to jack their yard (DRS, Scooze, Spellbomb, Knight for Bog, etc.), having them discard can start working as well as it does vs. other decks that don't use the yard. You may want to hesitate if all you have is a DRS, and all they have is 1 monster, but I've used Liliana to great effect in many Reanimator matches. The crown jewel was ulting her when my opponent had Animate Dead on Grizzle... needless to say I put those two cards in separate piles, and he was not amused.

TLDR; the edict effect is enough to keep Liliana in vs. Reanimator, IMO. The discard is not entirely off the list, as you will often find time to make good use of it... just don't blindly T2/T3 discard them without a yard hoser.

[Warden]

I never cut Liliana against Reanimator. Sure, ticking up is bad if you Turn 2/3 Liliana, but she still offers the Edict effect, which is the best type of removal we have against Reanimator. It gets around targeting, it doesn't give them the 7 life that Swords does, and it can hit anything that they have.

Liliana's uptick also does start to do real work when the game goes beyond the first few turns. Once you find a way to jack their yard (DRS, Scooze, Spellbomb, Knight for Bog, etc.), having them discard can start working as well as it does vs. other decks that don't use the yard. You may want to hesitate if all you have is a DRS, and all they have is 1 monster, but I've used Liliana to great effect in many Reanimator matches. The crown jewel was ulting her when my opponent had Animate Dead on Grizzle... needless to say I put those two cards in separate piles, and he was not amused.

TLDR; the edict effect is enough to keep Liliana in vs. Reanimator, IMO. The discard is not entirely off the list, as you will often find time to make good use of it... just don't blindly T2/T3 discard them without a yard hoser.

This is a well written piece of advice. I agree with what you're saying. Especially having Liliana still act as removal at worst.
Do you cut decays? I ask because I believe it depends on the list the opponent has. I won a game 1 where he went "Iona on white" and I decayed his animate dead --> into DRS + Scooze ---> Liliana. Then there are games I'm dumb and pull all decays only to see a pithing needle on SFM/wasteland/equipment.

[sdematt]

This is a well written piece of advice. I agree with what you're saying. Especially having Liliana still act as removal at worst.
Do you cut decays? I ask because I believe it depends on the list the opponent has. I won a game 1 where he went "Iona on white" and I decayed his animate dead --> into DRS + Scooze ---> Liliana. Then there are games I'm dumb and pull all decays only to see a pithing needle on SFM/wasteland/equipment.

You sometimes need to hit Needle, but it is certainly one or your worse cards in the matchup.

-Matt

[T-101]

I'll start by cutting cards that come down later, or have a slower impact. Stoneforge, the equipment, Sylvan Library, Lingering Souls, Thrun or Garruk Relentless (though those last 2 I rarely play anymore) and then I'll move on to Decays if I still need room.

[tescrin]

Decays are good; but probably as a 2-3 of. They may needle you (for whatever relevant thing you have, which are a lot) and Animate Dead is run in some versions. I agree with cutting slow stuff; I sometimes side out Thoughtseize so I can't accidentally hit fat, but with only 3 cards to really side in and then debatably thalia or Deluge, I just cut a few slow things and maybe Bob, Top, or other long-term effects.

My point is still that Lily definitely stays in; T-101 elaborates more on the why.


Response inline in red.


Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, DRS, Scooze, discard on your animation spells. The idea is to keep them from getting something into play, not trying to remove that threat if they do. At least that's how I see it...Iona on white is a lockout if they get something into play.... but if that happens, you are likely just dead.

You should note that they can put something into play T1 a non-trivial percentage of the time. T2 is fantastically easy. Being able to kill the thing before it kills you is good. Things like Equips, utility lands, or other weirdness can come out. It's not like in my deck I have much to side in.

I would board out Lili against Reanimator because I can die turn 2 when they bring out Griz. Maybe turn 3 I drop her and edict (And somehow Lili doesn't get forced). Then what do I do assuming there isn't some other huge jerk in play again the next turn? Tick her up and do half their job for them? Seems awful.

Having 4 Plow X Lily gives you a lot of answers, let alone KotR/Karakas or something. You sometimes don't start with DRS -> IoK -> Beater. Contingency plans for not having god hands are important. DRS that gets active and can't be played around is basically christmas land. What if they simply drop two guys in the grave and exhume? You lose if you can't answer it.

Your post sounds as though you haven't played the MU; so I highly recommend you practice it with and without so you can see a difference.

Believe me when I say I like your deck, love Deluge, and hope you do very well! I just think we happen to disagree on the best way to deal with these huge threats like Grisebrand or what is essentially Ancestral Recall. I am much more interested in preventing it from happening than dealing with the aftermath. I don't want to be in a position where it's like, discard here, edict here and now we're back to neutral... oh they have another.

But you also already edicted something in that situation. The point is that Bob is Treasure Cruise but 2-3 turns ago, the same goes for Lily. There's no reason to play answers to Cruise; just know that it can happen. It's not like Shardless where they can get a recall on T2 or T3. Even if they cantrip cantrip fetch fetch tapout recall; they haven't done *anything for three turns.* In that situation you could've landed bob, drawn a card, landed lily, discarded a card each, had drs picking at them or keeping cruise from firing.

Further, the stuff they draw has to be relevant. If they draw two creatures (which is hugely unlikely) then ok, Lily will get maybe only one of them; but you should be able to handle things like this; shardless has been doing it for a long time now; and at a better tempo.

[maharis]

I have only played it once, I can't remember what I did with Lili then though. I'll do some practicing and see if it changes my mind. After thinking about it most of the day I will try to get some lilis back into my 75 though, just in case I want them for certain matchups (sneak, miracles).

[maharis]

Tested my last build with panic spirits and no Lilis against SCG edison second-place deck. 7 games, no sideboard. My deck went 6-1, but I think I made a mistake as reanimator once and it should've been 5-2. I have notes if you want. Either way, it felt lopsided. I might suck at Reanimator though.

Regarding Spirit vs. Lili, Spirit was a total house. It makes Careful Study into a pudding cup, let alone what it does to Griz. If they don't get out an early Griz or Norn with counter backup, it is hard to lose with a lot of grave hate, hand hate, dig hate, and STP mainboard.

I may still get a couple lilis into the 75 next time, and she would've been OK as a removal spell, but there were definitely games Reanimator lost holding dudes and reanimation spells but no discard outlet. You can never tick her up unless you Thoughtseize first, IMO. I honestly would rather have Council's Judgement than Lili at the moment because it always hits Progenitus and TNN.

Will have to try sideboard matches to see if it holds up.

[tescrin]

IMO, you should still be favored either way, main and post board; just having Plow + DRS + Discard + other live cards is enough to make it decent.

Anyway, I think SotL is probably fine against them; but you're focusing WAY too much on ticking up Lily. I have no idea why you believe you have to play into them until you're in control. Lily is simply removal you can play out beforehand and if the opportunity comes up; sure, make them discard. If not; just sit there and force terrible decisions. It's like SotL in the sense that it's a preventative measure, the difference is that it is also one that can answer something from your topdeck and is good against other decks. (I'm not sold on SotL against others. If D&T can't run it with Vial; why could we without it?)

Are you playing you-against-yourself btw?

[maharis]

IMO, you should still be favored either way, main and post board; just having Plow + DRS + Discard + other live cards is enough to make it decent.

Anyway, I think SotL is probably fine against them; but you're focusing WAY too much on ticking up Lily. I have no idea why you believe you have to play into them until you're in control. Lily is simply removal you can play out beforehand and if the opportunity comes up; sure, make them discard. If not; just sit there and force terrible decisions. It's like SotL in the sense that it's a preventative measure, the difference is that it is also one that can answer something from your topdeck and is good against other decks. (I'm not sold on SotL against others. If D&T can't run it with Vial; why could we without it?)

Are you playing you-against-yourself btw?

Yeah. Made some coffee, opened tappedout this morning. To mitigate the effect of perfect info, I always try to make the decision that's worst for me. I know it's not perfect testing but its what I had.

I want to go back to some # of Liliana because she's so good against Sneak & Show. And absent anything better to take out, I would leave one or two in vs. Reanimator as a Seal of Primordium for them. I used to run 3 mainboard, I'm now thinking 1 main 1 side because there should be a pendulum swing in the meta and I might see some other decks come back. Like I said, the other day was all about what I saw in the room.

In the meta at large, though, Spirit is so crushing. Delver decks are playing up to 16 cantrips, up to 12 sorcery speed. Miracles has Jace. Elves has Glimpse and Visionary. Reanimator has Careful Study & Griselbrand. Even Dredge has Breakthrough/Looting to try and dredge with.

I have tried it in a Mom shell, but I'd much prefer protect it with a proactive card like thoughtseize or force tough decisions with it off a DRS. What do you kill in that scenario, the card that blanks 12 in your deck or the one that is a wincon and accelerant? Mom and Vial aren't as good companions of it as they seem. Sure, vialing it vs. Brainstorm is insane, but slower than just jamming it and developing your board while forcing an answer. It's not a gotcha card, it's an answer-me-now-or-nice-blanks card. It's like a Teeg vs. Miracles for everyone. Other than Jund, of course, but we suck vs. that anyway.

Basically, I always have wondered whether Deathrite into Wasteland-Thalia or Deathrite into Wasteland-Spirit was better, and I just think that with so many draw spells out and about right now, Spirit straight up blanks cards while Thalia is just a speed bump, making it a lot more relevant.

As for Lili, while it's still a great card, even if you play her on an empty board against the UR or BUG delver decks, they can discard chaff into Cruise into double Bolt or Decay and it's sayonara. I am pretty sure I was wrong to cut all of them but I haven't missed it. As for TNN/Progenitus, the decks that play those problem creatures always have some chattel to sac to an Edict. Topdeck Lili vs. your Emrakul against S&S happens enough for me to want to keep her around though in some amount.

[Bobmans]

Even Dredge has Breakthrough/Looting to try and dredge with.

Isn't Dredge ignoring the effect of Spirit of the Labyrinth? Thus useless vs that matchup.

That being said, i think you are right about both Liliana and SotL. I am definitly going to try Spirit out.

[maharis]

Isn't Dredge ignoring the effect of Spirit of the Labyrinth? Thus useless vs that matchup.

That being said, i think you are right about both Liliana and SotL. I am definitly going to try Spirit out.

yes, god I'm stupid, sorry. I was just thinking "Careful Study, does anyone play Faithless Looting... Oh yeah!"

Edit: Also, thank you and good luck!

[T-101]

I keep thinking about Spirit of the Labyrinth, but it's hard to pull the trigger and play 3-4. That's a whole lot of sideboard slots, and if I run them main, then I'd have to cut a fatty.

I'm typically on about 16-19 creatures (GSZ and Lingering count as creatures obviously).

There's no way I'm going to run Spirit over DRS, and I would be very hard pressed to run any Spirits before 4 Bobs. That means it's Sprit of the Labyrinth vs. Stoneforge, Goyf, Knight, Green Sun and friends like Qasali and Teeg, and Lingering Souls. Spirit is cool and all... but that's some stiff god damned competition.

Right now, the only one that might seem ok to replace is Lingering Souls, but that card is crucial in shoring up Miracles...

[tescrin]

I should point out that his list is not only missing Lily, but also missing souls. Running Spirit + Bob + Souls sounds bad, running Spirit before Bob or Souls also seems sub-par; and I think this is most of my position.

[T-101]

If Spirit was green (for Zenith), or if it didn't interact negatively with Library (that nombo means the deck would have to rely more on Bob for CA) it would be so sweet.

But I feel that right now, and at GP NJ, I just want to punish blue mages who like drawing cards.

[Megadeus]

It's kind of annoying for me because I know SCGs are like 75% blue, and I would like to test for that, but my locals generally are much less blue so it's tough for me to really gauge how good things like spirit and such are

[sdematt]

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

I like Spirit of the Lab, but not in this deck. I think people should definitely try it. 100%. But I think there could be a bit more game with Meddling Mage since you're able to name Show and Tell, which is the real backbreaker on that end of the spectrum, and you still get to name removal or Treasure Cruise at the other.

Another possibility is something we did about 3-4 years ago - you run Red. You can easily run 3 REB in the board if you so chose. I ran a Badlands for a while in 2011 to combat all the SFM/Blade decks so I could run Ancient Grudge, and it was a tank.

I haven't been posting lately since midterms. Will post more when I can.

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

I should be playing in a qualifier for Saito's Heraruya hosted tournament on Monday, but I don't have the card access for your list, sorry Matt

Decided that instead of fighting against all this in hand advantage I'll focus on my on board advantage instead, making sure I have a game winning threat or on board card advantage while removing theirs.
I've nearly settled on this in the end:
22 lands
1 dryad arbor

4 Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Library
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 TS
4 StP
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Lili
61

2 Surgical Extractions
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan safekeeper (can't believe I hadn't played him till so recently, he's amazing, thank you thread)
1 Teeg
2 E Tutor
1 spell bomb
1 needle
1 canonist
1 SoLaS
1 Choke/Spirit of Lab
1 Deed
1 Humility

I want two tutors because I really want to see 1 humility and 1 needle against SneakandShow and similar for other combo matchups
I dropped souls because 3 mana for 2 1/1s seems to be too much these days :/ that being said I do miss having a flier for my equipment, and have considered Skinshifter as a non graveyard dependent 1 of versatile beater. For now I'll try to remove blockers.
Engineered plague hasn't been doing enough for me recently and EE doesn't hit pyromancer and his tokens etc

And thank you Matt for opening my eyes in that Goyf can be sided out XD

[sdematt]

For the Goyf and Safekeeper advice - No problem :P

-MAtt

[Bobmans]

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

I like Spirit of the Lab, but not in this deck. I think people should definitely try it. 100%. But I think there could be a bit more game with Meddling Mage since you're able to name Show and Tell, which is the real backbreaker on that end of the spectrum, and you still get to name removal or Treasure Cruise at the other.

Another possibility is something we did about 3-4 years ago - you run Red. You can easily run 3 REB in the board if you so chose. I ran a Badlands for a while in 2011 to combat all the SFM/Blade decks so I could run Ancient Grudge, and it was a tank.

I haven't been posting lately since midterms. Will post more when I can.

-Matt

Red also enables PFire/Grove. I like the idea. There has been a Punishing Maverick list in the past. Yesterday i have been trying to build a 4c Rock/KotR list, but i quit. To much cards and too little room.

Currently i am working on a JUNK Nic Fit list that is getting pretty close to what the Rock is doing. Going to run 3 SotL on the board and see how that goes. The only thing for me not running this deck is that i do not like Dark Confidant AND i like playing Nic Fit as a archetype to much.

Also Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Spirit of the Labyrinth are begging to have a Bant list build around with SFM, TNN, Heirarch and a bunch of disruption/aether vial.

[H]

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

I will be going to an event on the 25th, it should be a decent turnout, it's for a Lotus. I haven't decided if I want to be Cruising or fighting Cruise, but my feelings, considering that I expect to see a bunch of Miracles, Delvers and Burn (with a side of Sneak and Show) is that Teeg is where I want to be, at least some number in there, which puts me on the anti-Cruise side.

If you get me a list before tomorrow I can test it at our FNM and I can see if I feel I can pilot it reasonably. If I can, I'll probably run it back for the Lotus on the 25th.

[sdematt]

I will be going to an event on the 25th, it should be a decent turnout, it's for a Lotus. I haven't decided if I want to be Cruising or fighting Cruise, but my feelings, considering that I expect to see a bunch of Miracles, Delvers and Burn (with a side of Sneak and Show) is that Teeg is where I want to be, at least some number in there, which puts me on the anti-Cruise side.

If you get me a list before tomorrow I can test it at our FNM and I can see if I feel I can pilot it reasonably. If I can, I'll probably run it back for the Lotus on the 25th.

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

[H]

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

[maharis]

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

Not to speak for Matt, but i would guess its a couple things:

1) we just play a high density of Teeg, most miracles lists are shaving STP anyway. Matt talks about just playing more Teeg on the most recent EE cast.

2) we have so many must-answer threats -- they can't afford to let a Bob or DRS get loose, equipment + Souls is a beating against them and Liliana is a waking nightmare. they can't depend on Countertop because Abrupt Decay so we can take away their advantage engine. Basically our game 1 is good enough anyway, they may never get a third game.

3) SoF&F is good enough against them, making them discard and letting us cast multiple spells in a turn is so bad for them. Plus F&F shreds BUG decks and Batterskull.

[Richard Cheese]

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

[H]

Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

Excellent point, I knew there was something I was obviously missing, but I just couldn't remember what it was, thanks.

I will take the list for a spin tomorrow and see what I can do with it.

[Megadeus]

I still think I'd rather have SoFaI versus miracles. It doesn't provide protection, but it's a fast clock and it draws more gas against them.

[uncletiggy]

Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

Or karakas

[H]

Or karakas

Alright, alright, you guys are just proving that I'm dumb, haha. I am just going to pretend that it's because I was up at 3:30 this morning for work. :cool:

[tescrin]

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

[Megadeus]

I can't imagine the match up being necessarily bad though. Just play multiple choke in the board.

[uncletiggy]

Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

[H]

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

Oh, I know, I have played against Miracles many times and I recognize that the relevent life totals are essentially 1 and 0. At one they can't pitch cast Force or crack a fetchland and at zero you win.

I mean, Pro White and getting back a dude seems better than Pro Green and having them discard a card, but Matt is no doubt a better player than me, so I might have to deffer to his judgement.

[tescrin]

I can't imagine the match up being necessarily bad though. Just play multiple choke in the board.
I think I'll start using one instead of Loam now that Shardless should be swapping to Delver Cruise variants. I'm not big on it though since it's timing dependent and only relevant in a few MUs (despite all of the blue in the format.)


Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

This is precisely what I'm getting at. Every time I think "I got good miracles tech this time!" I'll draw a couple of lands at the wrong time, fail to find Souls, or a variety of other mishaps and Boom. You lose. Typically in one turn. I've lost to RiP+Helm because I didn't answer RiP immediately, I've lost to Entreat for 4-5 after having them "beaten" so to speak; I've lost to entreat for 3 while jamming the board full of tokens.

The MU is awful in my experience; since they oppose the axis we drive on, and we don't have counters or Stifle.


I've actually been really wanting to try Silence to turn off miracles. (trigger->Silence => no miracle for you!) giving us a psuedo-stifle; it's fine for Storm and elf-chains too; I just haven't been brave enough to try it. Cutting off "Storm 7" would be amazing though. There's got to be a reason it's bad.. maybe I need to experiment and find it for myself..

[maharis]

Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

I very much disagree. I think we are even to slightly favored pre-board and much better postboard. They are not a combo deck, they are a control deck that depends heavily on the SDT engine (either with Counterbalance to counter spells for free or with the miracle mechanic to boardwipe or win). Think of them more like a Loam deck in that sense. It may seem like they win in 1-2 turns when they Entreat for 4 vs. your empty hand and board but you lost a long time ago.

They are reactive, we are proactive. But they can't react to Abrupt Decay, and it takes multiple cards for them to react to Lingering Souls. They also can't allow us to keep a Deathrite or Bob going and get ahead of their engine. They play dead cards like red blasts, 2 for 1 themselves with Force and spend a lot of time digging and setting up and never pressure our life total (very relevant if you get a Sylvan out). Just don't play into a Terminus, Wasteland them when you can, and be smart about Thoughtseize and you should be fine.


Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

They can also play top into CB into blind flip counter our next play but that is exceedingly unlikely. They can also STP deathrite into counterspell Stoneforge into Clique souls into windmill Jace but that is also unlikely. The scenario you're talking about costs 4 mana, 3 white, which means that they either are way off blue, or you haven't drawn Wasteland, or they are doing it over two turns giving you time to react.

Believe me, I've been dreamcrushed by Miracles a lot playing Deadguy and Dega and the difference in just adding Abrupt Decay is huge. If they can't counter our spells for free it is very hard for them to keep up.

I will say that a player who is very experienced with Jace can really crush you with that. It's the most important card in the matchup because it can singlehandedly take over and kill you over the course of turns as opposed to oops I angeled.

[tescrin]

I very much disagree. I think we are even to slightly favored pre-board and much better postboard. They are not a combo deck, they are a control deck
I'm not being foolish; but what I mean is that they sometimes just win; and it's not uncommon. I've had a game where I was testing Kjeldoran Outpost (I know.) I was filling the board with tokens, beating for 3-4 a turn. They instant-speed angel'd at like 6 mana and I just lost. The reason is because they don't have to do much at that point; they just did 12, and if you don't answer all of their flyers in 1 turn, you probably died.



the difference in just adding Abrupt Decay is huge. If they can't counter our spells for free it is very hard for them to keep up.
I'm something like 1-6 with miracles on Junk (in various forms); with 4 bob, 4 Lily, 4 Decay; sometimes I had EEs, sometimes I had weird sideboard cards; etc.. the difference between winning and losing is basically whether or not I find top or if I draw enough gas.

4 Decays in the deck barely does anything from my perspective. Everytime I decay a CB it's back within a turn or two. There are multiple games where i've decay'd 3 of them and of course it's a guy who has 4. The MU is abysmal from my perspective.

I leave fetches open for Jace, I prioritize Bob and keeping an appropriate number board:hand threats ratio. The top-decking and jace locking is too powerful if you miss even a pair of draws (I.E. by drawing a couple of lands when you have too many.)

If your clock is slow you die.
If your deck missteps you die.
If you +1 Lily at the wrong time, you die.
If they oops-angel you die.

The MU sucks. Please don't tell me that Decay (when I have always run 4) or Lily just wins. They don't.

[maharis]

As a child of the 90s, I would never tell anyone not to play Kjeldoran Outpost. And I get what you mean, but I would never think of them as a combo deck. If anything their combo finish makes more cards live against them because good anti-control cards like Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay can supplement hatebears.

I haven't played against them with Top in my deck since I switched to junk so that might change things if I decide to keep it in going forward. But yeah, needling top postboard is one of those things that gives you an advantage that they can't easily overcome. If they find their one of Wear/Tear or use Judgement on it, you just play another threat. Getting flooded can kill you, I agree, since they have superior selection. But even then, we have such a density of threats that attack them from different angles that it should be really hard for them.

On Dega, I once t1 thoughtseized, then Surgicalled his Counterbalances. I still lost because without Teeg he was free to Supreme Verdict me and Terminus me until he found Entreat. And I didn't want to needle Top because I had it in my deck. Miracles was the reason I abandoned Dega, even REB did nothing because it's impossible to win a counterwar against them (and REB can't beat Countertop if it resolves.) In hindsight, I should've played Bitterblossom in the board (I crushed two Miracles players in one night with that thing playing monoblack) but Miracles is so popular (or was, I wonder how it will do post TC) I just think it's better to pick a deck with a favorable matchup against it, which I really believe this deck is.

Looking at your last list, I see you don't have any Stoneforge/equips, Krosan Grip, Needle effects, Sylvan Library, or Dryad Arbor (a huge persistent threat against them, since you can fetch it off the bottom of your deck post terminus or play it as an uncounterable creature that can carry a sword). I suggest trying some of those cards because it's like night and day. (And I really like your KOTR approach, but I can see why it would be soft to Miracles).

[sdematt]

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

SoFF is better against the BUG decks, still deals with Batterskull and opposing Goyfs, and you get to untap and dump your hand. Pseudo-Dryad Arbor vigilance is tech.

Against DnT, you want Jitte ASAP. Against Miracles, SoLaS is very good, I agree, but SoFF is still pretty good anyway. To say the matchup is bad is an overstatement, the matchup is okay as long as you don't draw dead.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Played my somewhat bad list tonight. It was horrible. Despite smiters, decays, thalias, and spirits, I got smashed by the treasure cruise decks. It was absolutely ridiculous. My first time playing since they released. Totally wouldn't be surprised if it got banned

[Jain_Mor]

Played my somewhat bad list tonight. It was horrible. Despite smiters, decays, thalias, and spirits, I got smashed by the treasure cruise decks. It was absolutely ridiculous. My first time playing since they released. Totally wouldn't be surprised if it got banned

Even if you did terrible some details are still helpful. What was your list and what decks did you play and what was the end game state like etc? Please :)

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been tweaking around with a junk/dnt hybrid for a little bit. I orginally posted it in the maverick thread, but it has since become more junk-like (and this thread is just so much more active) so I thought I'd post it here for some evaluation.

I just played it at a 4 round local and came in 4th at 3-1. Here's the current list and I'll give a brief recap of how I did as I didn't take any notes.

Creatures (21)
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Mother of Runes
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Dark Confidant
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (17)
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Sylvan Library
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Lingering Souls

Lands (22)
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Karakas
3x Wasteland

SB:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Rest in Peace
2x Zealous Persecution
4x Thoughtseize
1x Council's Judgment
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

Round 1: Burn--(0-2)

G1: This was pretty brutal, he basically curves out with goblin guide (not giving me any lands for 3 turns) and I die a flaming death.

G2: Out: 3 confidant; In: 2 EE, 1 Thalia (I could see adding more for this matchup since it seems fairly miserable)
I kept a shaky hand with 5 lands, 1 sylvan, 1 sfm. I probably shouldve just tossed it back, but there aren't any super great hate cards for me to bring in so I figure I might as well just try for a fast sfm->batterskull. Needless to say, I get crushed after my sfm eats a searing blaze and he empties his hand for about 11 dmg on turn 3 or 4.

Round 2: Miracles (2-0)

G1: I was on the play and I had tested this matchup fairly extensively. G1 is not too bad since you have the vials to just get value as well as the thalia+karakas combo to save your creature. This game was pretty simple--he gets flooded without a top on the field; he top decks a terminus around t3/4 to take my mom/drs as i bounce my thalia into my hand. Next turn I make 2 tokens from souls+ vial in thalia to get 4 power on the board. 2 turns later, another terminus comes out and I karakas my thalia and use the second half of my souls for the win.

G2: Out: 4x Swords to Plowshares, 2x Knight of the Reliquary, 4x Aether Vial, 1x Umezawa's Jitte; In: 2x Gaddock Teeg, 1 Thalia, 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x Council's Judgment, 1x Sword of Feast and Famine, 4x Thoughtseize.

I was mostly testing out taking out vials for thoughtseizes to attack their removal/snap/judgment. I honestly don't know if its the correct strategy as I didnt see a thoughtseize until about the game ended (I filtered through it as it was off a sylvan). This game was a slow grind--he got top and karakas online which blanked 2x thalia, 2x teegs in my hand. I eventually just slowly run out 2x stoneforges grabbing batterskull and sofai. At some point I get a library into play and basically whiff on finding anything useful for about 3 turns with fetches. From his end, he swords, snap->swords once or twice; hits 2 terminuses and resolves a jace at some point, but I had a drs equipped with sofai which ends up killing his jace. I eventually get there with a 3rd stoneforge (thalia+teeg were just fogged by karakas continually).

Round 3: UR Cruise Burn (2-0)

G1: This matchup wasnt too bad to be honest. I had a hand with jitte, 2-3 lands, and vial. I started with vial and proceed to put in: drs, eats bolt; bob, eats bolt; then sfm which gets batterskull and sticks. I believe i swords a delver and decayed a pyromancer on his side; at one point he cruises->ponder->brainstorms and finds a singleton swiftspear after all of it. Batterskull+jitte online for a turn eats his board and he concedes.

G2: Out: 3x Dark Confidant, 3x Phyrexian Revoker, 2x Knight of the Reliquary; In: 2x EE, 2x Zealous Persecution, 1x Council's Judgment, 1x Thalia

He sticks a turn 1 grim, while I stick a t1 drs. He doesnt get enough cards into his gy to turn on lavamancer turn 2 and instead plays a delver; I play my land and eat his land to play sfm grabbing batterskull. Eot he brainstorms and gets his delver flip. I find a swords to kill grim and play out a second sfm grabbing jitte. He doesnt have another bolt and on my turn i vial in jitte and strap it onto drs. I use the counters to ping off the delver. On his turn he plays a needle on jitte, but he cant find any more threats. On my turn I make a batterskull and after a while I find a EE, blow it for 1 and strap jitte onto batterskull. He doesn't find any outs in 2 turns.

Round 4: Death and Taxes (2-0)

G1: This was a pretty back and forth game. We both get t1 vials, and we both get fairly slow starts. At about t3/4 his board is vial @ 2, serra avenger, flickerwisp, and a sfm w/o summoning sickness and batterskull in hand. I have a vial@2, drs, sfm, thalia, and unequipped batterskull. He swings in for 6 and I take it; eot I vial in bob. I actually miss his trigger on my turn (been a while since I've played with bob/vial) and I sfm in jitte and equip onto bob, swinging into his batterskull. He makes his batterskull and blocks my bob; I then use the counters to kill the token and put down a revoker naming batterskull. I stabilize with jitte and a swords on his avenger and then basically lock him out with a drs strapped with jitte. From there on, I killed every one of his creatures.

G2: Out: 3x Thalia, 2x Dark Confidant; In: 2x EE, 2x Persecution, 1x Council's Judgment. In hindsight I shouldve taken out 2x kotr instead of 2x bob's. This game was over pretty fast--I basically had infinite removal for all of his threats. He resolves a RIP on me on turn 2, but my sylvan just finds me 2x ZP's, 1x EE, 2x StP's with enough power on the ground to punch through.

Overall, the deck feels pretty powerful as it takes a lot of the strongest elements of DnT and adds in the card advantage, manipulation and power that junk offers. From my limited testing, the deck is pretty good versus sneak as well, because of the kotr-> karakas lines (but I have since cut a kotr so it may have gotten weaker in the matchup). I'm mostly wondering about your opinions on the follow questions:

1) Is the versatility of toxic deluge worth it even though it kills so many of my own creatures
2) Should the 4th thalia be a 4th revoker/3rd teeg/5th discard spell since having legendary creatures makes me more vulnerable to karakas just stalling forever
3) Is there any amazing tech vs elves?

So that's my brew and any critiques or comments are welcome.

[Megadeus]

Even if you did terrible some details are still helpful. What was your list and what decks did you play and what was the end game state like etc? Please :)

I played against a 4 Color walker control variant, a UW Thopter deck, and burn versus a man who was in his second tournament ever. Both the games versus the blue decks I had decent starts and we had great games, in the end it just came down to their cruises and digs being able to find gas. I'll admit my list (which I'll post later) is probably not good, but trying to out attrition these blue decks without a swift clock feels next to impossible

[H]

SoFF is better against the BUG decks, still deals with Batterskull and opposing Goyfs, and you get to untap and dump your hand. Pseudo-Dryad Arbor vigilance is tech.

Against DnT, you want Jitte ASAP. Against Miracles, SoLaS is very good, I agree, but SoFF is still pretty good anyway. To say the matchup is bad is an overstatement, the matchup is okay as long as you don't draw dead.

-Matt

I am definitely deferring to you superior deck building skills and format knowledge. Running your 75 tonight for FNM and I will do my best to take notes.

[Jain_Mor]

@something... Any deck that has five 3ofs is suffering from "I can't focus my deck" syndrome :)

Deathrite shaman is one of the best reasons to play black green so play 4 of him
I'm pretty sure Mom gets better in multiples
And you want to see her as soon as you can, so that's a 4 of
You want to use her to protect sweet creatures, so 4
Bobs.

I don't have experience with Thalia, id check out D&T lists to see if you want 3 or 4.

You need to make cuts. You don't need souls I don't think, anti synergy with both vial and Thalia.

And I think you may need to chose between sylvan library and SFM

I'd probably try this:
4 DRS
4 Mom
4 Bob
4 Thalia
3 Revoker
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Batterakull
2 KotR
4 StP
2 Decay
4 Vial

22 land

As for elves tech, gaddock teeg, EE, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Perish, Zealous Persecution, Humility + Equipment
Hope thay helps :)

Though from what I understand, D&T works with a mana denial plan, you only have 3 wastelands and no ports, because you are 3 colours. I guess the Knights help you find wasteland, but still, you're diluting D&T to add abrupt decay and shaman basically

[Warden]

...Though from what I understand, D&T works with a mana denial plan, you only have 3 wastelands and no ports, because you are 3 colours. I guess the Knights help you find wasteland, but still, you're diluting D&T to add abrupt decay and shaman basically

And this is one of the main reasons why the meta hasn't seen Junk and Taxes. The mana is too important to DnT's shell. You need to run 8 colorless sources: Ports and Wastes. Toss in 3 colors and you'll be hurting for making it come together. If you're pushing for something, I could try 4 waste, 4 port, 7 fetch, 7 mana-producing lands.

The issue with Thalia is that she makes Decay, the best BG, worse.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I understand what you're saying in that D&T has a heavy mana denial strategy and I fully understand that I cannot hope to imitate that heavy mana denial strategy because I simply dont have the ability to run as many colorless lands. As a result, I cut back on the thalia numbers and added more spells. Thalia doesn't serve the same purpose for me as D&T--they use it as an essential lock piece, that along with wastes, ports, and revoker on drs shuts down the opposing player's manabase. Its less powerful as a card in my deck, but still has plenty of uses versus the fast UR cruise decks as well as combo (I see her as my weakest creature at a lot of times, but its still annoying as hell for my opponents so often)

As for the dissynergy with spells such as decay and souls and thalia--I feel like the deck is similar to maverick in that I have a lot more mana to pay for the extra 1 tax (if thalia is on the field). Furthermore, while maverick is using its mana to cast both spells and creatures, an early vial frees up a lot of my mana to just casting spells. DnT uses this vial advantage to use its extra lands to tap down opposing lands with ports, but they also have spells that they want to cast, sometimes even through thalia--judgment, cataclysm, rest in peace, and stranded equipment. I was also initially quite hesitant to run thalia with souls and decay, but both spells have been extremely valuable in so many different situations that to not include them while running the junk colors would have just been wrong.

As for the other 3-of's--I started the list at a bunch of 4 of's (the list Jain_Mor suggested actually has 62 cards), but there were just different situations where each creature was either terrible/amazing. So instead of running 4-of's of each card, I categorize them into cards that basically do the same thing--3 bob/2 sylvan are card filtering/drawing; 3 drs/4 vial are mana accelerants; 3 thalia/3 revoker/2kotr are hatebears (I classify kotr as a bit of a hatebear b/c its great vs certain decks like sneak, reanimator, ad 12 post). That being said, I do occasionally want the 4th mom and it is something I'm looking to put back into the deck. However she does present the problem of adding another creature into the line of fire for your opponents mass sweepers such as terminus, zp, deluge, ee, etc. DRS on the other hand is great as a late game threat in g1, but in g2/3 gy hate comes in and rip will neuter drs from doing any pinging past t3/4 (I am also almost solely relying on their gy for the pings so multiples do become dead fairly fast, especially when they start delving). The 4th bob is also something that I haven't missed--he is great as a singleton on the field, but becomes very suicidal in multiples. I understand the redundancy argument and that a bob that sticks around wins games; however my deck has a lot of creatures that tend to have huge targets on their heads and I can usually sequence bob in there so that he doesnt die or is removal magnet for a kotr/library to survive.

[maharis]

IMO Thalia has two major weaknesses that make her a tough sell: Terminus and Elves. The former is very castable under her, making it hard to keep pressure on. The latter is just not affected by her at all. I also don't like Thalia against Cruise since the tax can be paid via delve. I really believe in the marriage of Spirit and Teeg, since we can break the symmetry of those cards so much easier.

[H]

I played a 5 round FNM last night using Matt's list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=838767&viewfull=1#post838767).

I had a pretty miserable showing, finished 1-3 and a free win in the last round since my opponent had left for the night. I'll try reconstruct what happened, but in summery I had severe mana issues, compounded by misplays.

Round 1: BUG Delver
Game 1: I keep a hand with three lands, but he is fast out of the gate with 2 Delvers in the first 3 turns. They flip, but I manage to Decay one of them. He drops Goyf after Goyf after Goyf, but I draw Goyf, Goyf, Souls, Deathrite, Stoneforge for Sword of Fire and Ice. I end up at 2 and he has Deathrite, but there are no instants or sorceries left in the yard, and with some creative blocking (double blocked one Goyf with Goyf + Deathrite, since it was useless to try to activate when he can activate to counter) I get a Soul with a Sword (lucky that 2 was not a 1 because I needed to fetch), shoot down the Deathrite, chump again, and take over the game with the Sword. Maybe tonight luck is on my side?

Game 2: I keep a Bayou, Plains, Deathrite, double Bob, Stoneforge, Library hand. I figure if he Wastes me, I can still use Deathrite and land a two drop and draw another land. Oh, how wrong I was. Bayou gets Wasted, Bob gets Spell Snared, I never draw another land over the next 5 turns, while everything I play gets Snared (again) or Dazed. Looked at the top of my library, no lands for 9 more cards...well, gee, thanks top deck gods...

Game 3: I open a 1 land 7, so nope, ship it. I open a 6 of Library, Goyf, StP, Decay, a Sea and a Fetch. I do actually draw a land this game, a Bayou, but I made a misplay here that cost me the game and match. He had a Deathrite and he plays a Goyf. I have StP and a Lili in hand, uncracked fetch in play. End of his turn I fetch, get a Scrubland, because I'm thinking, "let me get on all my colors" and oh, how I will be punished for thinking that Scrubland was the right White source. StP gets his Deathrite, I untap draw a second Decay, Lili and kill the Goyf. He untaps Wastes my Bayou, plays Goyf. My deck unmercifully punishes my not getting a Savannah and I never draw another land, dying to 2 Goyfs with double Decay in hand. An ill omen...

Round 2: Huang U/R Burn
Game 1: I lost my life total notes, but he burns my face a bit, but I had double Stoneforge. First gets Fire and Ice, second gets Jitte. I never even need the Jitte and I win.

Game 2: Here I lose to myself. We battle, but I end up with a Stoneforge with a Stoneforge with Fire and Ice and a Deathrite to his 0 cards in hand and a Delver. I mistakenly drop a Wasteland for turn before I attack with the Sword and compound this mistake by tapping it to play an irrelevant Jitte. He topdecks a Price and I die to exactsies. Even worse, I drew a Forest off the Sword trigger. Well, i'll just have to win 3 games this match I guess.

Game 3: Not much doing here, he keeps a creature heavy hand, a Waste on a Volcanic leaves him short of Red mana, and I get a Teeg with Fire and Ice on it. By the time he has Red, it's too late and I win. Turns out Teeg was irrelevant, he could have been a Grizzly Bear.

Round 3: Elves
Game 1: Every time I play his kid (not being pejorative, he's like 17?) he manages to nut draw me (last 3 times I played him), so lets see. I have 3 lands, double Bob, Jitte and Sword or Decay, can't recall. Either way, I kill a Symbiote, but never draw a 4th land to play and equip the Jitte and his turn 4 yeilds him a Cradle and 15 Elves in play off Glimpse and 9 cards in hand. Only reason I am not dead on the spot is he never drew a Heritage druid. He has Cratherhoof in hand though and I do not draw a Wasteland.

Game 2: I open a 7 with 0 lands, ship it to a 6 with 1 land, to a 5 with 2 lands, a Stonefoge, a Decay and a Goyf (I think). Doesn't matter, he turn 2 Natural Order's for Progenitus and I never even draw a 3rd land. Hmm...

Round 4: ANT
Game 1: Double Deathrite and he draws nothing but cantrips in to cantrips and I win.

Game 2: I turn 1 Thoughteize and he Brainstorms (damn...) I take a Ponder over a Ritual. I probably should have took the Ritual, but that would only have delayed a turn and I get Ad Nauseumed.

Game 3: I turn 1 Thoughtseize with a IoK in my hand. See Duress, cantrips and I think I take a Infernal. He Duresses and take the IoK. I get a Goyf and a Lili, plus Library, but the top of my deck is all poop (fetches and Bobs). I fetch a Arbor for some extra damage, plus Lili to discard a Lili, but Goyf was not that big, only a 4/5 now and I can only put him to 2. He plays a fetch and goes off with Past in Flames, Tutor loops and kill me.

Round 5: No show.

I'm out anyway, I would have played just to test some more, but instead I just play some Vintage for fun (at least I can win there).

My play was certainly suboptimal and I was probably punished about as hard as I could be for the mistakes I made. I apologize for these results being not all too relevant, being shrouded in a cloud of hazy mistakes. I don't feel the list was much at fault, it would have been nice to draw a few more lands at some key times, but shit happens and worse shit happens when you make shit decisions. I am going to run this back at next Friday's FNM, see if I can play less like an idiot and gain some actual insight.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@maharis: that's an interesting point--I have been finding that thalia was often the weakest card in the deck, but have felt compelled to keep her in due to the fact that similar decks (maverick/dnt) use her quite a bit. Perhaps the right call would be to just take out thalia for something like teeg mainboard and free up 4 sideboard slots.

[sdematt]

Things happen, don't feel bad, H.

I played my list to a 5th place finish at a GPT for New Jersey, with about 25 people. I faced Burn Round 1 and lost horribly. Round 2, I crushed Infect. Round 3, I faced UR Delver and Teeg did work on Treasure Cruise. Round 4 I played Dredge and Ooze is a god. Round 5 I drew with Burn into Top 8. In the Top 8, I lost round 1 to Maverick because I had mana issues and drew poorly, and my Maverick opponent drew REALLY well. It happens. I've played that Maverick player with the deck MANY many times and won about 75% of them.

Overall, I'm happy with the list but the burn matchup is boo. Had I won, I would have faced OmniTell (a likely win) then UWR delver with Cruise in the finals (again, another good matchup).

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

@Something..., the list I brainstormed is in fact 60 cards

[maharis]

@maharis: that's an interesting point--I have been finding that thalia was often the weakest card in the deck, but have felt compelled to keep her in due to the fact that similar decks (maverick/dnt) use her quite a bit. Perhaps the right call would be to just take out thalia for something like teeg mainboard and free up 4 sideboard slots.

You really have to build around Thalia — lots of creatures and cards like Vial and Port that are just weaker in a 3-color deck — while mitigating the advantages of your splash (1BG Decay, 3W/2B Souls, 2G Sylvan, 2BB Liliana). Mav decks that are really light on the black splash while also having extra mana dorks and KoTR into Cradle can break the symmetry a little better (see Thomas Herzog's list from SCG Indy). And D&T can go deeper on mana denial by supporting Port.

But if you really want to play the best black cards like Bob, Thoughtseize, Souls, and Decay I think she's more of a liability than anything. Though if you play against ton of Storm she's perfectly defensible in the 75.

I played Thalia Dega for a long time, sometimes she was great, but against so many common matchups she did little to nothing.

[tescrin]

Had some bad fortune last night:
R1G1 - Lose to dredge. First game is T2 (that I happen to have a bog in hand, but it was a bit late for that) I scoop before he can see what I have since he was going to have a billion zombies
G2 - Had Teeg, DRS, Knight IIRC, but it doesn't work out. I should've mulled to stronger hate thinking back. he gets a boatload of zombies T2 and I don't find an answer. He also guesses knight and gets it with therapy.

R2 - Nothing special. Beat a zombardment brew. I will say that had I had draws like these for dredge, that guy would've been screwed..

R3G1 - Go 1-2 with storm. G1 He sees Lilys in my hand with DRS and waste on the battlefield and tries to go off early (so to speak.) AN draws him most of the way but he can't race DRS with goblins and his mana is slightly off.
G2 - Had a beautiful hand of discard, thalia, DRS, something, IIRC. I discard his LED. He gets a lucky cabal and gets thalia. Ugh. It's a little fuzzy what happens next but I get Tendrill'd
G3 - I had an alright hand. I discard something of his. I play a nihil spellbomb with mana open. I think about cantripping it but I knew it was a low chance (turns out to be ~14%) and figure it's smarter to hold open for the grave. this is the right play, but not this game. Turns out I had a teeg on top. At any rate I land my knights and do a wasteland (similar clock and I knew he was really tight on mana. He had 20 and 16 if I attacked, so I believe AN would get him there anyway.) He goes off. Sad times. Probably should've mulled to something stronger.

R4 - He's on a UR delver and a very slow player (new, borrowing the deck.) I don't take it super seriously because of this and the fact we're already out of the money anyway, he just has the right answers at all times. I grind with him both games but despite topping for about 5 turns in a row I never find anything good. Young pyro is good though. Maybe he's found a good home. I'm still mildly surprised he doesn't have a home in RUG.



I felt pretty unlucky the whole night. Losing to dredge is annoying; but I think I'll swap my BO that shouldn't be there for a Cage; still I could've mulled better. The storm was obnoxious because that Thalia would've gotten me into knight (and he had no removal) into a likely double-wasteland win. The dredge MU did have a sideboarding issue where I didn't side in Deluge I believe.

[T-101]

I played in a GP trial yesterday, went 3/1 to make top 8, but lost in round 1 of top 8.

I used a list that sdematt posted a page or two ago, I'll post again so you don't have to try to find it.

4 Deathrite
4 Bob
3 Goyf
3 Stoneforge
2 Lingering Soul
2 Green Sun's

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 STP
1 Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
1 SoFaI
3 Liliana

3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
4 Verdant
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
---
3 Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Engineered Plague
1 Chains of Mephistopholes
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Explosives
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Round 1

My 7 has 1 land which is wasteland, my 6 has 1 land which is Bayou and 2 Lilianas, so I keep a 5 which has Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Bob, Sylvan, Stoneforge. I go Scrubland pass. He goes Island Sensei's Top. I don't draw a land, but I want to Therapy. I name Counterbalance, and hit 1. He has Jace, and another land in hand, and I'm pretty sure I can't win. He draws and plays a Karakas, which tips me off that he might be playing the Legendary Creature version of Miracles. I don't draw any more lands, he plays Jace, and I scoop in response to Fateseal. All I showed him was a Scrubland and a Therapy.

I bring in lots of cards, Teeg, Grip, Needle, Tutor, Safekeeper, and Chains. I take out STP, Goyfs, 2 Therapy, and a Thoughtseize.

After 2 very long grindy games, I end up taking the match. Game 3 I paid like 16 or 20 life to Sylvan, which was awesome. Even though the games went long, I felt like I had the upper hand the entire time, which feels great. Miracles is often one of the decks I want to avoid when playing Junk, but this build does indeed make the match up feel pretty good.

Round 2

My opponent is on Omni-Tell, and his Brainstorms and Ponders are the worst. He doesn't find the combo, and I get a bunch of discard. He dies to Sword of Fire and Ice on guys kills him both games. I got really lucky, and don't consider this to be a good match even though I went 2/0

Round 3

My opponent is on Dredge. He doesn't Dredge a Narcomoeba for about 4 or 5 turns, but he ends up getting me anyways. Game 2 I get Deathrite into Ooze which gets him. Game 3 my 7 is sweet, but does nothing vs. Dredge, so I have to mull. My 6 yields GSZ, Scooze, and some other stuff, while he mulls to 5. Turn 1, he Therapies himself for Stinkweed, leaving him with Bridge and Narcomoeba in hand. I turn 1 GSZ for Arbor, so I can have a turn 2 Ooze with G up. He dredges... no Narcos, no Dredgers. I'm def running super lucky today. I cast Scooze, eat something on his EOT. On his next turn, I think he somehow gets 2 Stinkweeds and a Thug in his yard, but I have a 3rd green source on my turn, and he can't do anything else for the rest of the game.

Round 4

Everyone is ID'ing, and I would usually want to, but I'm in an odd spot. We are the only 2 players with 9 points, and the 6 players with 6 all ID'd. He is ahead of me on breakers. So if we draw, he's in spot 1, if I lose he's in spot 1. I can only improve by playing it, and I know he's on D&T, which I feel good about.

I get a sketchy 6, but it had potential. He plays MoM pass. I thoughtseize him, see 2x STP, 1 Aven Mindcensor, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland. I take Aven, but then he plays Leonin Arbiter... the guy who makes you pay 2 to search. He Ghost Quarters my land, and I draw fetches...

Game 2 I get smashed by equipment. Balls.

Round 5

He's on GRUB Delver with TC. He draws a buncha cards, and I die to Pyromancer tokens both games.

-----

So, I ran super lucky vs Omni and Dredge, and got some valuable testing vs. Miracles. I'm happy with this build vs. Miracles, but I want to play with Spirit of the Labyrinth right now. If I can't squeeze it in Junk, I may start playing Maverick, or Green Taxes in preparation for the GP.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@ Jain_Mor--sorry miscounted =X
@ Maharis -- The main issue hasn't been the symmetry of her effect; that has hardly been noticeable as the vials basically act as hierarchs/mana ramp from the maverick decks w/o getting swept by terminus/zp. Rather its been her lack of impact in a lot of matchups that has me questioning her inclusion. She's great versus storm and occasionally delver, but versus the majority of the format the extra mana isn't backbreaking without the aggression of maverick or the ports of dnt.

[jim111589]

Hey guy, I did a gpt sunday and have not got around to posting it but I missed it by 1 point going 4-2 winning agenst sneak and show, bug delver, junk and DnT and losing to lands and UR delver il post a list in a bit but I love this deck it just feels like since we cant run brainstorm and the like we are mostly fighting an uphill battle.

[ForlornEgoist]

Hello, everyone! I've finally decided to make Rock the deck I pilot to SCG: Minneapolis. I had toyed with the idea of taking a Dwarf Stompy build I'm testing as Moon is obscenely strong right now but I decided that it would be bad form for me to try a new build so I'm falling back on my old love, Rock. For the most part I'm satisfied with this list but as I've been inactive with Magic I presently lack much field experience I would rather have had going into this. Generally speaking I believe the meta to be centered around Sneaky Show/Miracles/DnT/Delver/BUG/Elves.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Qasali Pridemage

2 Lilana of the Veil

4 Thoughseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Batt3rskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad's Arbor
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood

Sideboard is still a work in progress. Was thinking something Likee:
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
2 Krosan Grip

This is the build I had been running. I was considering trading out the Tidehollows for 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Cabal Therapy. I can't particularly afford it but I would really like the Qasali to possibly be a 3rd Liliana. I also think running a 3rd equipment may be a possibility. I was always a fan of Greaves although SoFaF or SoFaI tend to have more utility. Honestly my build varies very little from what I've read the past couple pages but I was just looking for any advice as in a couple days I'll be buying the last cards I need for Rock as well as Enchantress (my friend is borrowing my deck) to make them both primed for SCG so I wanted to make sure my list was finalized.

Forlorn

[maharis]

Hello, everyone! I've finally decided to make Rock the deck I pilot to SCG: Minneapolis. I had toyed with the idea of taking a Dwarf Stompy build I'm testing as Moon is obscenely strong right now but I decided that it would be bad form for me to try a new build so I'm falling back on my old love, Rock. For the most part I'm satisfied with this list but as I've been inactive with Magic I presently lack much field experience I would rather have had going into this. Generally speaking I believe the meta to be centered around Sneaky Show/Miracles/DnT/Delver/BUG/Elves.

...

Sideboard is still a work in progress. Was thinking something Likee:
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
2 Krosan Grip

This is the build I had been running. I was considering trading out the Tidehollows for 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Cabal Therapy. I can't particularly afford it but I would really like the Qasali to possibly be a 3rd Liliana. I also think running a 3rd equipment may be a possibility. I was always a fan of Greaves although SoFaF or SoFaI tend to have more utility. Honestly my build varies very little from what I've read the past couple pages but I was just looking for any advice as in a couple days I'll be buying the last cards I need for Rock as well as Enchantress (my friend is borrowing my deck) to make them both primed for SCG so I wanted to make sure my list was finalized.

Forlorn

I mostly love the maindeck. Stirring Wildwood might be a little unnecessary and lead to some awkward openers with 3 wasteland and Dryad Arbor since you are trying to make a turn 1 play with B and eventually cast Liliana. I would trim the Scullers as you suggest for another black fetchland, a therapy or 2 (i love this card against other Stoneforge decks as well as against combo), and a third piece of equipment. That would allow you to keep Wildwood in a spell/creature slot. Sculler is too fair of a card IMO and I don't think it's as good against the decks it's good against (Storm and S&S) as Therapy is against a wider range of the field. Hitting on both ends of a Therapy is basically game over for Storm, and you can flash it back off a green fetchland (Dryad Arbor). Then of course you can leave them in against any Stoneforge deck to nail what they draw without losing life, and then potentially remove something else that's problematic if you need to.

I also have been following Matt's strategy of no Batterskull, 3 Bob, 3 Library and it has been really good. Skull is powerful but SoFI and SoFF provide card advantage, so with 3 bob, 3 Library and 2 swords we can keep up with the blue decks pretty easily. Also they are super soft to cards like decay and souls.

On the sideboard I wouldn't bother with Choke, it can be countered pretty easily and delver decks can do a lot of damage before it comes down. I would definitely get some Cages and Zealous Persecutions in there because Elves is a nightmare from which there is no escape. The best we can do is gum up their game plan, two-for-one them and try to clock them before they can rebuild. Since you're playing Goyf, Toxic Deluge can also be a consideration over Zealous since it hits a lot of other annoyances as well, like Merfolk or Goblins if you happen to run into those decks.


Hey guy, I did a gpt sunday and have not got around to posting it but I missed it by 1 point going 4-2 winning agenst sneak and show, bug delver, junk and DnT and losing to lands and UR delver il post a list in a bit but I love this deck it just feels like since we cant run brainstorm and the like we are mostly fighting an uphill battle.

Hearing about junk on junk crime is sad. Oh well. UR delver is somewhat favorable, was that match close? Would love to see your list.

[jim111589]

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Darkblast
1 Unearth
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares


SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed


game one vs ur delver, which the shop was calling booze cruise, hey just got what i assume is something of the nuts for that deck which was t1 delver t2 pyro t3-6 cantrips and burn spells and i couldn't deal. i may have sided wrong but i put in tutor, shoke, deluge,2 zealous, deed, plague and 3 thalia taking out 4 bob a lili, 4 thoughtseize and i cant remember the last one. probably another lili. i swords his t1 swiftspear i play drs he counters. i unearth it he bolts it. i play another he bolts it. he was really scared of drs his board state was something like pyro, 6 tokens and a swiftspear and i got plague so i named ele and it stuck but by then i was at 9 or so and he just burned me out with PoP and his other bolts.

i still think we are somewhat favored in that match. im going to try to pick up a chains this weekend and tweek my board and might take out the unearth for a loam

[maharis]

Jim, list looks good and your plan sounds fine to me. Sometimes they just have it. Not all of them play PoP and there's really nothing we can do about that if we cut our Thoughtseizes. I do try to fetch basics game 2 against them just in case they have it or blood moon, but you can't always do that. Darkblast main seems really strong against these strategies, I may give that a look.

[ForlornEgoist]

I mostly love the maindeck. Stirring Wildwood might be a little unnecessary and lead to some awkward openers with 3 wasteland and Dryad Arbor since you are trying to make a turn 1 play with B and eventually cast Liliana. I would trim the Scullers as you suggest for another black fetchland, a therapy or 2 (i love this card against other Stoneforge decks as well as against combo), and a third piece of equipment. That would allow you to keep Wildwood in a spell/creature slot. Sculler is too fair of a card IMO and I don't think it's as good against the decks it's good against (Storm and S&S) as Therapy is against a wider range of the field. Hitting on both ends of a Therapy is basically game over for Storm, and you can flash it back off a green fetchland (Dryad Arbor). Then of course you can leave them in against any Stoneforge deck to nail what they draw without losing life, and then potentially remove something else that's problematic if you need to.

I also have been following Matt's strategy of no Batterskull, 3 Bob, 3 Library and it has been really good. Skull is powerful but SoFI and SoFF provide card advantage, so with 3 bob, 3 Library and 2 swords we can keep up with the blue decks pretty easily. Also they are super soft to cards like decay and souls.

On the sideboard I wouldn't bother with Choke, it can be countered pretty easily and delver decks can do a lot of damage before it comes down. I would definitely get some Cages and Zealous Persecutions in there because Elves is a nightmare from which there is no escape. The best we can do is gum up their game plan, two-for-one them and try to clock them before they can rebuild. Since you're playing Goyf, Toxic Deluge can also be a consideration over Zealous since it hits a lot of other annoyances as well, like Merfolk or Goblins if you happen to run into those decks.

Thank you for the suggestions!

The Wildwood is honestly a card I've been testing on and off as a secondary threat. So far I really haven't run into too many situations where it was bad, but then again just because it isn't bad doesn't mean it's optimal. In regards to equipment I definitely plan to run a 3rd equipment, it's just a matter of deciding which one. SoFaI would probably be the best selection but I may just relent to my inner desires and run Greaves. I know it's not the best but I've always loved running it (with SB Manriki-Gusari) as I seem to be the only person who ever runs them and thus catch a number of people by surprise. Tbh Greaves isn't even bad as we have a number of must-answer threats and keeping a Bob or SFM untouchable can be deadly. Only issue being that SoFaI or SoFaF give us a better clock and provide stronger utility via their secondary abilities.

I think I'll reduce the Teeg's to two. 3 seems redundant, and with the Bob/Library/GSZ I think 2 will suffice for my needs. The Chokes can probably go as well, or at least be reduced to a 1-of tutor should I feel the need. I'll agree decks like Elves may give problems so perhaps running Persecution or Deed would be in order. I most likely won't opt for the 3rd Liliana as I really like the idea of running either a 3rd Library or 1 SDT (simply because I only have 2 Library atm. and don't want to invest in a 3rd right now :p).

But I'm definitely feeling confident with how this is playtesting. I've pretty much gotten it to the point where there's very little to improve upon; it's just fine tuning small numbers at this point.

Forlorn

[sdematt]

Vancouver Legacy Classic Streaming now!

http://www.twitch.tv/metsir

-Matt

[tescrin]

I was "undefeated" at a mean 2-0-2, beating a grave brew, Elves, drawing with D&T (so close!) and DGA.

The list was pretty experimental and a bit similar to Forlorn's(?)

Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
3 Toxic Deluge

Reasoning:
-There's been a lot of combo lately and my defense of Sculler had me wanting to try him out. My fair game with Sorin had been fine without really seeing him, so trading him for scullers to deal with the myriad decks worthy of disrupting seemed good.
-Sculler is much better with Equips, so SFM was a strong candidate
-SFM + Souls + KotR + Lily is hard to sell, so Souls ended up going. The reasoning was that I could have actual card advantage where they were. That said, I missed them a lot.
-Pulse took Lily #4 as the local D&T players run Leyline and I was zombied out a couple times by Dredge last week. Hitting sculls and things seemed alright.
-Loam was for all of it's random nice synergies, but saw no play against opponents given how many basics I was up against (Elves was the most non-basic heavy.)

So:
-Scullers seemed fine. They didn't piss me off for once. I think I'm getting how you use them; which is also why I had dropped souls (for this list.) Basically, they're only good if everything is must kill. He's always must kill and is devestatingly good against D&T due to their lack of removal.
-Pulse. It's ok. It's weaker than Lily so I can hedge against stuff. It hedged mildly against skull, but nothing a Lily eating the germ once/twice couldn't have done. It killed like.. a heritage druid too.
-SFM I think is the difference between drawing/not drawing. It sounds weird given how swingy and decisive the games tend to be. It could be sculler/lack of souls as well, as Sculler pushes the game and Souls (while they also slow the game down) don't tend to stall the board state, but rather push life totals. She was good. I think I like the 2x3 setup.
-SoLaS, given my MUs, was a hedge against DGA and D&T, and it performed well. I was just about to drop it G3 against D&T but mana was too tight to do everything and we had a board stall of SoFaI face-offs and large board presence on each side.
-Loam did nothing this week, but I do like how it connects with Lily, as a psuedo-land (T2 rampant growth) and Top Synergy. We'll see.
-I really missed souls; though Bitterblossom or Outpost has been on my mind.
-Second cage + Scullers felt awesome against elves. Every card I drew that wasn't a land/Bob was a way to disrupt.

I definitely felt the SFM + Top disynergy again and may go 2-3 library next week, but then again, I was using Top like a maniac and it felt good.


D&T 1-1-1
G1 - I expect an easy win but we board-stall due to Sculler and Bob vs. Thalia (he won't swing, I can't draw removal.) Bob does a horrendous amount of damage to me while not drawing removal and I die to a timely crusader. I may have won if I hadn't walked a fetch into a Mindscensor that I knew about; but I tried to be tricky. This is how we learn! (I had a sword or some such that I couldn't get down due to being a mana short.)
G2 - He can't keep anything on the board. I suit bob up with SoFaI and he decides to trade sick-Mom with a flashed Aven to kill him. I of course fill the board with dudes and voltron him. At some point I pulse a BSK.
G3 - Grindy and weird. I sculler a WLL after he plows something, I eventually have Bob KotR DRS but he has SoFaI on Thalia; so I'm sacing dudes to keep her from connecting and he's requipping (or some such) so I can't get in. I get my own SoFaI and have SFM in hand during rounds. I would've grabbed SoLaS and *probably* won, but it's hard to tell because drawing a Swords would get him a WLL; which may or may not be enough.

Brew (Zombardment without the Bombardment) 2-1
G1 - He has a Bob#2 I can't answer, it gets out of control and I concede with empty hand against DRS, Bob, Lily on 5 or 6.
G2 - DRS basically wins the game. Draw a good amount of removal as well.
G3 - Don't remember it well, but he has awesome therapy targets but no therapy. He has to walk Bob and something else into Decays while I DRS my hand out ASAP. Scullers sits on PoP (lol!) and he dies 4 Damage at a time. Since I loaned him a chunk of the land base (7 lands and 3 guides) he concedes given I have lethal on board and such.

Semi-budget DGA, very weird config for tonight (everything is action, no tops/librarys, no DRS or Mom) 1-1-1
G1 - Removal trades for awhile and he gets beaten slowly by Scullers IIRC
G2 - He has an active bob for awhile but gets land screwed after he and I waste eachother. Unfortunately he unlandscrews right before lethal and has 3 Plow, a Lily, 2 Lingering Souls and a pair of SFM while having an equipped soul on the board. Ugh. I lose despite having double-equips and such.
G3 - We go to time quickly but he has board advantage with Lily + Stuff

Elves 2-1
G1 - I'm worried he's on belcher and mull to look for discard, but I only find sculler and say decide it'll have to be good enough. He's on elves! I steal NO with Sculler but he sages it and goes off. I don't think I had a chance since he had EV + WS. I did have a Jitte online, but I couldn't connect with it (obviously.)
G2 - I have Triple Plow, Decay, Sculler, Bayou,Waste. Yep, keep. Over the game I discard 2-3 of his cards (or sculler them) get Teeg out, plow three dudes, decay one, pulse one, Lily one I think. He still gets a NO off but he gets Thar; unfortunately Thar prefers Karakas over the battlefield.
G3 - I have a good mix and get Cage Teeg DRS and Lily online after killing a guy or two. This turns out to be inconvenient for him.
(for fun) G4 - He gets greedy with DRS + land. I plow it and he misses a Land drop. :D. waste + DRS on my turn. Then Lily eating his lone dude and no lands next turn. he concedes and I show him Sculler, TS, (other stuff?) and he'd be discarding 3 next turn.

Hope the wall of text was informative. I think I need souls as an out to Flyers and Lily, but I imagine it starts cutting into my Lily and KotR numbers. List felt good, KotR didn't do anything today and I imagine it has to do with Swords and the fact Sculler shores up what KotR is supposed to shore up. Maybe I'll try Goyf next to Sculler. KotR is good for random decks like Nic FIt though... so we'll see. One of the Nic Fit guys was there again and so was S&T and maybe 12-post

[maharis]

Tonight is my last weekly to test for Eternal Weekend, and I'm not sure where I want to go.

I miss playing with Sylvan Library, but it's that or Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit of the Lab is so good against cantrip decks, but kind of a soft body and definitely has situations where it does actual nothing. I thought about adding more mainboard Teegs, but Teeg does nothing against Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, and Ponder, which all trigger Swiftspear and Pyromancer and flip Delver and filter/feed the inevitable bolt Teeg, play Cruise turn.

But I had cut Liliana for them, and she still seems really bad right now. Lots of Elves, lots of Young Pyromancer, lots of Treasure Cruise. She used to be a soft lock in one card, but now it's too easy to fool her edict or refuel after a couple discards. Still want at least 2 in the 75 because Miracles stubbornly hangs around but I definitely don't want to see her against most of the field.

I cut the Spirits, put my Libraries back and added a 2nd Cabal Therapy and 4th Swords. I guess I feel like those are just powerful spells and it doesn't change my mana curve for Bob. Not sure if that will make it to this evening though.

[tescrin]

After some consideration on the "perfect" -1/-1 effect, I'm going to be trying 1-2 Orzhov Pontiff in the main this week. He carry's equipment while being a boss against random stuff; including answering (with card advantage built in) UR Delver's Pyros. Other places are of course Elves, Mom decks (Mav, D&T, DGA), Esper w/ Souls, and the out to storm of course.

My reasoning is that Charm and ZP are dead topdecks in a lot of scenarios, but having a sword-carrier is always relevant. It's also pretty sweet that it can happen multiple times in attrition battles. My issue with Charm/ZP is that since you can't get -2/-2 they miss a huge amount of things I'd like to hit (Crusader, full boards, zombie tokens) so can be dead even in fair MUs. EE suffers a similar issue at times (though I like it better) since in an example of Souls + Dude or Pyro + tokens you can only hit one or the other; but Pontiff gets the benefits of having a timely charm while being able to just voltron an opponent.

I do feel like I need to find a way to get some sacrifice effects to fully utilize him, so maybe I'll go to the 3 TS 2 Therapy plan. Jitte, SoFai, and Lily may be enough to abuse a second activation.



@Maharis
I 100% disagree with you on Lily and feel obligated to post it in response to you every time you claim it. TA still runs her and is topping. I would call that sufficient evidence. Hymn got worse because it's CA is fixed and worse than cruise (while having all of it's original problems.) Lily is a variable amount of CA, but activating her twice (not uncommon) in concert with any other CA card has given you the CA of cruise.

[sdematt]

I think if you're running Pontiff, try something like:

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 SFM
3 Dark Confidant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
15

2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
5

4 Abrupt Decay
3 STP
7

2 Lingering Souls
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Equipment
3 Sylvan Library
10

23-24 lands

You're a bit heavy on the 3-drops, but you can abuse Cabal Therapy and Pontiff a bit more - you run 3 therapy so you can use Pontiff and Souls very well.

-Matt

[sdematt]

You know what gets around the EE problem of hitting Pyro+ tokens? Pernicious Deed. Card's good in a big way right now, especially with Miracles being leaps and bounds the best deck. But, collateral damage on Deed can be insane, that's why I'd rather just run EE.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

You know what gets around the EE problem of hitting Pyro+ tokens? Pernicious Deed. Card's good in a big way right now, especially with Miracles being leaps and bounds the best deck. But, collateral damage on Deed can be insane, that's why I'd rather just run EE.

-Matt

Ooor... Toxic Deluge?

[Warden]

Ooor... Toxic Deluge?

I have ruined Pyromancers with well-timed ZPs. This creates no collateral + synergizes with our Lingering Souls.
The hard part is a) countermagic (every other option suffers here as well) and b) waiting on the opponent to be cute and make tokens off a chain of spells. You want to throw them off guard by letting them cantrip + create tokens ---> wipe the table with ZP. ZP also works against Elves.

@maharis
I too have been thinking about the UR cruise matchup. Teeg is not the answer. The times I beat the deck (as Junk/Mav), I removed their threats. For this reason, I would run removal out the ass -- spot removal or x-for-1 sweepers --- and would keep Liliana in (despite their burn spells and Pyromancer tokens) because she has more upside than downside.

Spirit is just "bad" in my experience. Everyone wants to live the proverbial dream of denying brainstorm and ponder but don't realize the creature needs an open table to attack (good luck against UR delver and Elves). Spirit is also fragile (see: lightning bolt, forked bolt, and everything in between).

If I were to play at Eternal Weekend, the core of my deck would be:
3 Liliana of the Veil
6 Discard (TS/IoK/Therapy)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

I'd hedge my bets against Combo -- since UR and BUG are warping everyone into thinking tempo decks with daze/force are the best. This opens the door for elves, sneak/show, and storm to run around. At worst, discard is handy against everything and miserable against a few decks.
The creature/threat suite you use comes down to playstyle and availability. SFM is generally good for a big room because it packs the propensity to randomly win/turn the tide. Goyf would be my weak link right now. He actually isn't so hot because he's "only" an under-costed non-flying vanilla -- at a time in which the format is pushing "value" cards. Scooze would be more appropriate IMHO. If you want to be spicy: Gut Shot (should you see lots of weenie, elves, and UR delver).

[sdematt]

Ooor... Toxic Deluge?

Deluge no bueno against Miracles. I was looking for some crossover. If you're strictly trying to muck creatures, then Deluge does work, albeit with some collateral damage as well.

[T-101]

It's been a long while since I dusted off my Deeds, but I'm not close to running it in this deck again. I'm usually running out 1, sometimes 2, permanents each turn that cost between 1 and 3, and I'd be hesitant to hold back my own board to gain value on a Deed that is damn sure getting countered if they can find a way. I guess the best cast scenario is that they Daze your Deathrite, Force your Bob, go off with Pyromacer, and then Deed resolves and nukes their board the following turn, achieving a 2+ for 1 against them, but at the cost of plenty of life, and they may have TC'd in the mean time.

I love Deed to death, but I'm a whole lot more apt to run ZP, or EE. Pontiff is a spicy one that I may have to try out. In the dark, it seems quite hard to get a -2/-2 out of him, being that you need him to enter play (3 mana), and then follow that with 2 things that kill your own guys (this means 2 Flashbacked Therapies, a Therpay + a Liliana -2 on yourself O.o, or additional mana to Decay + Flashback/Liliana yourself). Granted, getting the -1 effect is all you want vs Pyromancers, but if you're looking to nab other stuff too, it will require work.

In other news, I think I'll try running a pair of Chains of Mephistopheles in the main again. I've done it in the past (but didn't like it, posted in TR or this thread several months ago), and then I saw the article posted today in the Articles board where a Jund player points out why that might be strong. Seems to make sense. It's already a borderline mainboardable card in a blind meta, and a Star City hosted GP with a sweet new card drawing spell in the format seems like now could be the best time in years to maindeck it.

[maharis]

I went 1-2 with a variant of my usual build. I played 2 lilianas main and no spirits. 1 Teeg main. Sideboard:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Plague
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Enlightened Tutor

Rd. 1 vs BUG pod. I never see a VetEx in three games, but he does resolve one Treasure Cruise. He wins game 1 after 4-for-1-ing me with Deed, but I get turn 1 Cage in game 2 and waste him out in game 3. Fun match, I got blown out by sower of temptation and murderous redcap in my first game of the legacy weekly. What a format.

Rd. 2 vs. Reanimator. Lose die roll. game 1 he has turn 2 griz. Game 2 I have turn 1 cage. Game 3 I miss the win. He has an ashen rider early, but I have souls tokens to chump while I get SoFaF online and play a cage. I lose the race, but I did have enough mana to equip my sword postcombat to an untapped spirit if I wanted to stay alive. Misplay by me.

Rd. 3 vs elves. I am so sick of losing to this deck. In game one he draws about 15 cards on turn 4 then passes. I have a sylvan out. All I need is a thoughtseize. Nope. I board in 12 cards. In game 2 i keep 6: cage, sfm x2, waste, marsh flats, thoughtseize. I play cage, he does something. I seize him, taking visionary and leaving 2 GSZ, heritage Druid, nettle sentinel. He plays his cards out. I get SoFaF. He rips his one-of Reclamation Sage, blows up cage, plays some guys, and ends up digging up Ruric Thar. I kill a lot of his board with a zealous but can't build enough defense before he bounces sage to kill my SoFaF with a wirewood symbiote. I hate this deck more than any blue deck in the format. I try not to be salty but this is the second game in a row they have ripped the one-of Sage to blow up my Cage and win.

Cage ended up being the most important card in my 75 tonight, haha. Liliana was a non-factor. I did keep her in against Reanimator, but didn't see her in time. I boarded her out in other matches. I would've liked to have had Spirit when I faced a turn 1 griz and my elf opponent drew 15 cards in a turn. However, I don't think it's worth losing sylvan to play spirit. So I'm still at a crossroads. No more testing before Philly though so I might just roll with this build. I could see an argument to play zealous main and side the Lilis though. I still think she is bad against elves and cruise delver, which should be the most popular decks in the room this weekend.

[tescrin]

I keep almost posting. I guess I'll sum up my thoughts.

@matt
Deed is cool, but it costs a boatload of mana. I've tried it a bit, but it's worse against miracles than it looks/feels. It just stalls a long time. You certainly have more game but you eventually get Jace'd out. That's just IME. I'm done dedicating anything but some Teegs and Chokes to it. Deluge is pretty sweet I've found.

I'll probably stick with KotR for a bit. If anything I think the push towards Cruise makes him better (between Bog and being a bigger beater.) I didn't find Goyf did anything I couldn't do with KotR and I have too many relevant MUs for him at the moment; with a note that he didn't do anything last time, but neither would goyf in those situations. (Crusader, RiP, Elves.)



Rd. 2 vs. Reanimator stuff

I could see an argument to play zealous main and side the Lilis though. I still think she is bad against elves and cruise delver, which should be the most popular decks in the room this weekend.

Reanimator is a strong MU IMO, even without KotR. I'd see if you can't get some practice in; as it'll be a big deck over the weekend.

I wouldn't play ZP over *lily*, I'd play ZP over Decay. Decay is getting mildly weaker (Elves, Reanimator) and I have good DGA buddies who main 2-4 ZP to good success. The thing to remember is that Lily does really good on an open board and -1/-1 effects help you counter her exact weaknesses. I think they go well together anyway.

[maharis]

I blew my Reanimator match, I agree the MU is favorable. Just have to remember to move my sword.

I wish I had practiced with Knights. I think they might be really good now. Also would allow me to play deluge, which is definitely good. Deed is sweet, but too slow for us, plus it's anti-synergistic with equips and sylvan. Deluge plus a fattie cures a lot of ills.

I can't see going to less than 4 decay. Counterbalance and Delver are still really popular.

[tescrin]

Deed is sweet, but too slow for us, plus it's anti-synergistic with equips and sylvan. Deluge plus a fattie cures a lot of ills.
I can't see going to less than 4 decay. Counterbalance and Delver are still really popular.

Your reasoning on Decay/ZP is the same as mine really; but they do that *I think.* They have a fine Delver MU since they spam Souls and discard (3 Sculler, 6 1CMC) plus the usualy Plows and such. ZP + Souls is a bear really; since they also protect the souls from -1/-1 sometimes while trading up using it as a combat trick. Quite obnoxious. With that; they do have a terrible Miracles MU.

I had forgotten about equips, which really turn my opinion against deed

[sdematt]

Your reasoning on Decay/ZP is the same as mine really; but they do that *I think.* They have a fine Delver MU since they spam Souls and discard (3 Sculler, 6 1CMC) plus the usualy Plows and such. ZP + Souls is a bear really; since they also protect the souls from -1/-1 sometimes while trading up using it as a combat trick. Quite obnoxious. With that; they do have a terrible Miracles MU.

I had forgotten about equips, which really turn my opinion against deed

Realistically, if the Delver decks are drawing more cards, it means they have more counterspells. Cutting Decay in any way, shape, or form appears short sighted. I'd run 8 in this meta if I could.

ZP is very good in a meta of TNN, Elves, and Young Money. Again, this could be maindeck if you really feel that strongly about it in your meta. Elves is one of the better decks in the meta, especially when it is facing 4 hate cards or less.

I've been derping around with this Depths list and I'm just going to throw it up. No testing, just adjusting in case you're looking for something to try at EW.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Life from the Loam
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Living Wish
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles

Hexmage is good at blowing up Jaces and if you play it foreign, most people doesn't know it first-strikes. EE could just be ZP if you felt like it, as well.

If you are going to EW, prepare yourself for Delver and Miracles and some Elves. The other stuff? You can probably skimp on the hate.

-Matt

[Warden]

@sdematt:
Dammit Matt, you got me thinking Junk-Depths now. I'd tweak your list to include a loam + mox + chalice core. I don't like relying upon hexmage, as thespian stage is a thing nowadays too. T1 Chalice would hurt UR delver and Elves a lot.

[sdematt]

Stage is in the main. Hexmage is value and backup and allows you to go off with one Knight activation in one turn.

[Claymore]

I've tried the Chalice Rock Depths plan, but it can be very unwieldy, and leads to you cutting out the likes of Swords and DRS that you need to be able to keep up with Tempo decks. Granted, the deck I had played more Living Wishes (a Hoogland build), but it leaves you with a deck that tries to be too cute while you're getting smashed by 3/2 bugs.

At this moment I'm tempted to run Jund or Jund Depths at the GP for the sake of the Punishing Fire package, but I'm worried about heavy graveyard hate if people try to overreact to Treasure Cruise - plus the inconsistencies of those decks. I think Rock has the advantage of using hatebears (Thalia, Teeg) and meta enchantments, along with ETutors to fetch them.

I think if tuned correctly, Rock can have a fine matchup against xUR Delvers and Burn through incorporation of SFM (Skull, Jitte, maybe swords) and main Golgari Charm and be able to easily bring in hate like EPlague, Spirit of the Labia, Chains, and hell maybe even Equipoise (goodbye Pyro tokens, batterskull token, Sensei's top, angel tokens, phase out TNN) and Seal of Primordium (Counterbalance).

How is the Miracles matchup these days?

[sdematt]

I've tried the Chalice Rock Depths plan, but it can be very unwieldy, and leads to you cutting out the likes of Swords and DRS that you need to be able to keep up with Tempo decks. Granted, the deck I had played more Living Wishes (a Hoogland build), but it leaves you with a deck that tries to be too cute while you're getting smashed by 3/2 bugs.

At this moment I'm tempted to run Jund or Jund Depths at the GP for the sake of the Punishing Fire package, but I'm worried about heavy graveyard hate if people try to overreact to Treasure Cruise - plus the inconsistencies of those decks. I think Rock has the advantage of using hatebears (Thalia, Teeg) and meta enchantments, along with ETutors to fetch them.

I think if tuned correctly, Rock can have a fine matchup against xUR Delvers and Burn through incorporation of SFM (Skull, Jitte, maybe swords) and main Golgari Charm and be able to easily bring in hate like EPlague, Spirit of the Labia, Chains, and hell maybe even Equipoise (goodbye Pyro tokens, batterskull token, Sensei's top, angel tokens, phase out TNN) and Seal of Primordium (Counterbalance).

How is the Miracles matchup these days?

The Burn matchup isn't great, SFM into Batterskull or not. Your Miracles matchup is better. If you want good games against Burn, you basically need Timely Reinforcements.

I cut the Chalices from Depths because you want to have STP and DRS. You don't NEED them, but you WANT them.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Its worth noting with equipoise the batterskull itself never phases back in with the token. If you play it prepare for lots of judge calls because most players are unfamiliar with how phasing actually works.

[Claymore]

I actually have questioned that before. The wording of Equipoise means that the Batterskull phases out before the germ, and based on deep rulings the 'skull will phase back in. If Equipoise phased out the token first then yes, the 'skull would be gone forever.

[uncletiggy]

Essentially you want to do everything in your power to hit something other then batterskull during the artifact step whether its haveing the same number in play or selecting another target. Then during the creature phase of the card select the germ all enchamtments and equipment phase with it via indirect phasing then never receive the return trigger and stay phased out. Unless something has changed...

[tescrin]

Timely reinforcements and Sylvan Library have some really nice looking synergy while shoring up burn. I could see that becoming a real card.
My thinking is that by controlling your life total you basically turn it into a "Draw two cards, lose two life, get three tokens" card.

Considering it has application in burn and fair MUs; maybe it deserves some brainstorming; especially next to Bob/Thoughtseize, Library.

My main issue with it is it's always a "come from behind" sort of card, meaning you have to get behind to use it. Library can control the first "get behind half" but the second half seems much more difficult to get moving in a proactive deck.

[T-101]

As far as the come from behind aspect, I really doubt we would have to put any effort in to make Timely gain life. Burn's gonna have us on a low life total already. Gaining the tokens shouldn't be too difficult. They tend to bolt the first life-gain guy (DRS, Scooze, a Stoneforge threatening a Jitte), and I tend to trade off my early creatures when I can to preserve my life total.

[sdematt]

Timely reinforcements and Sylvan Library have some really nice looking synergy while shoring up burn. I could see that becoming a real card.
My thinking is that by controlling your life total you basically turn it into a "Draw two cards, lose two life, get three tokens" card.

Considering it has application in burn and fair MUs; maybe it deserves some brainstorming; especially next to Bob/Thoughtseize, Library.

My main issue with it is it's always a "come from behind" sort of card, meaning you have to get behind to use it. Library can control the first "get behind half" but the second half seems much more difficult to get moving in a proactive deck.

Coming from behind is my main strategy in everything.

-Matt

[razvan]

Coming from behind is my main strategy in everything.

-Matt
I know it doesn't help the thread, but I laughed. A lot.

[maharis]

This is my "final" draft for Eternal Weekend:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

Thinking about shaving the 4th STP for a 2nd GSZ. I'm feeling less confident recently that we can fight Treasure Cruise decks, we need to have really good draws.

[iamajellydonut]

Thinking about shaving the 4th STP for a 2nd GSZ. I'm feeling less confident recently that we can fight Treasure Cruise decks, we need to have really good draws.

A second GSZ I can get behind. Cutting an StP I cannot. Spot removal is just too necessary. Fortunately, it looks like you missed four lands in your list, which means that you're running twenty-four total. Which is just way more than you need to. Especially when you consider that you're running Green Sun's Zenith, have no way to abuse your lands, and have an exceptionally low curve. One of those can, and should, come out for a Green Sun's Zenith. I would also recommend squeezing in at least one Horizon Canopy on general principle, but that's entirely optional.


Unrelated to the Green Sun's Zenith question, the only other change I see necessary is that I would probably aim to remove one of the equipment. I've always found that more than two in a non-blue deck just has too much potential to sandbag the deck.

-1*Stoneforge Mystic
-1*Equipment

+1*Dark Confidant
+1*???

[maharis]

The only card I'm missing is one Savannah... But thank you for noticing. Trying to do this from memory since I'll be driving to EW at 7 AM and dictating my decklist to someone else in the car, haha

You're right about STP. I had been running 3, went up to 4 instead of a 3rd liliana, thinking cheap targeted removal was important, so it's just the "last card." There are definitely other considerations to cut. Or add, like running a single Zealous in the main to clean up Young Pyro spam (card is good against both STP and Liliana). Cutting equips is not what I want to do, though, often it's a game of attrition until a single Spirit or Dryad carrying a sword gets there.

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in Teeg's performance vs. Treasure Cruise, and I don't expect to see as much Miracles as we have over the past few months, so I can see putting both in the board and adding a more beefy creature or additional GSZ to the main. Every time I think about adding more GSZ targets, though, I just think of all the times I GSZ for Deathrite.

What about the sideboard? I am expecting the two most popular decks to be UR delver and Elves. Usually there's a third-most-popular deck but even locally (Brooklyn) it's been a field dominated by UR cruise and Elves. The tertiary strategies are BUG and reanimator, with Sneak & Show also on a bit of a decline.

I have yet to beat Elves with this deck (0-5). But the last two times I played against it they ripped the one-of Sage to break Cage for the win, which could just be variance. I hope, at least, because if it happens again I'll tear what remains of my hair out.

[iamajellydonut]

The only card I'm missing is one Savannah... But thank you for noticing. Trying to do this from memory since I'll be driving to EW at 7 AM and dictating my decklist to someone else in the car, haha

Understandable. I got a game loss at the last SCG because I dictated from memory in the car and forgot my Maelstrom Pulse (sadface). Also, you're right. Only one card was missing. I blame lack of food and lack of sleep.

Anyway, with a twenty-one land count in mind, I would say that adding another Green Sun's Zenith is a necessity. Also, though I do understand why it's at twenty-one, I'm just really uncomfortable with that low of a land count in general and it makes me want to cut an equipment even more.

As far as Teeg, I wouldn't pin preventing Treasure Cruise all on him. He's a one-of that doesn't have indestructible or hexproof. He's a delaying measure only. A Meddling Mage on crack. I wouldn't even bring in or leave in Teeg if the only thing he can hit is Treasure Cruise. It's just too narrow of a usage when you consider all the pain that can be brought in instead. That being said, he's still a powerhouse and you should not remove him from the deck under any circumstances. Miracles is still a top deck, even if you haven't seen much of it, and he's great against Elves and shores up so many holes in so many matchups that could get ugly. You have to accept that, just the same as any other card, he does have the potential to be not as good in certain matchups.

The only problem I have with the sideboard is that Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives seem like they could be... different cards? They just seem like the weakest slots. Like, I'm rolling it around in my mind, and I don't see where Engineered Explosives comes in, and I can't see where I would want to board in Therapy over Duress.

Another consideration is Spirit of the Labyrinth. People put this card down all the time, and I feel it's unfair. When they put Spirit of the Labyrinth down, it's because they haven't been able to jam four in a deck and steamroll the meta (no shit). As a one of in the sideboard, it's great. Especially when you can dig it up with Enlightened Tutor. It does do what you need it to. It's a relevant beater. Against Elves, it's a strictly better Chains of Mephistopheles. Against UR Delver, it can be the Silencce of the century as it's not uncommon for them to have a hand devoid of Bolts.


p.s. I'm sorry that I keep editing this and that it's rambly. Work won't stop telling me to get back to work.

[tescrin]

Benefits of EE:
-Place it down early against storm. If they go goblins they can't make you discard it (I.E. they won't go goblins.)
-Eats Angels at instant speed (Although unreliable since you have to leave mana open; it is a thing)
-Eats zombies, if you're worried about FKZ then it can also do it at instant speed
-Can be cast through counter-balance as AD #5
-Can get easy 2-for-1s depending on list composition and board state
-Elves..

This typically means it comes in in most fair MUs, Dredge, Miracles, Storm, Elves etc..
It's worse against Pyro tokens and such at the benefit of being much better against token-based combo
EDIT: And great since it plays through thalia, dodges Spell Pierce and Daze naturally, and plays through Chalice/Counterbalance. It's all around good since it hits any kind of permanent, but can be mediocre it taxes you for it. I have, for example, use it to kill nimble mongoose a few times; which is something other SB cards can't do outside of Deluge.

Benefits of Cabal:
-Discard density. You only need one discard card to cast two. You can also get the benefits of (say) DRS before saccing him. (Tap for mana, sac him, cast a 3-drop anyway.)
-2-for-1's
-Tosses to lily while being live
-better against SFM decks

Cabal is definitely way better than Duress (if you're good with it..), but EE is debatable for other things; depending on what MUs he's worried about. That said, I've stopped caring about EE vs. miracles because the theory is stronger than the interaction. I had a situation the other day where Cabal in the grave would've been the difference of winning and losing (Tidehollow revealed the opponent who had been manascrewed had triple plow.) Saccing Sculler mid-game to eat all that removal would've given me the maneuvering to turn that draw into a win. There are endless examples against Storm or such where you'd flash it back the next turn and get massive value.


To his deck.
With 4 SFM: IMO use a BSK. That's the only reason you use 4 SFM. Why? A 2x3 package like mine is more for surviving equip destruction and fetching bullets against decks (SoLaS vs. D&T being the most notable.) It also means I don't care much if they kill my SFM, her value has been used aside from shaving off *maybe* one mana from an equip or making it uncounterable. With 4 you're expecting her to die and you care for some reason; you probably care because she has a tap ability you want to use => BSK.

Also, a 4x2; while it was prevalent before TNN; IMO is a little weak. The fact is, having SFM be an actual squire with nothing to do is bad. Something to note about BSK is that if you did draw all of your equips, that 3rd/4th SFM still has a job, which is help reset BSK.


With all of that out of the way; I should say your list looks like DGA with Decay. You have no fat (BSK, Goyf, KotR) and an awkward GSZ package. IMO; GSZ is at least partially to find Teeg. If you're not going Maverick and swapping a Decay for a QPM and such I feel like you're devaluing the deck by taxing yourself for random "bullets." Scryb feels especially weak.

The way you add GSZ is by removing Discard since GSZ gets you Teeg; meaning you can have similar game against Storm while improving your fair MUs (due to having more access to fat.) What you lose is some Delver game (higher costs, less early game interaction, less decay or plow) and game against other combo. Dropping said decay is why I feel weird about going that direction.



EDIT:
With all of that talk about SFM I should point out that SFM packages of all shapes and sizes have topped; the above is just my theory on why certain compositions should be better. Matt's idea is probably along the lines of "A two drop with nigh-guaranteed card advantage and can hold a sword; what's not to love?" Mine is more of "She's not must-kill until you've started equipping, so I use her to supplement my plan rather than be a big part of it."

But top-8 compositions off the top of my head (scgs and things):
4x2 (UJ, BSK)
2x1 (BSK) (rare, control decks like miracles. I have tried this to mild success once or twice)
4x3 (Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS/BSK/SoFaF) (BSK for D&T, matt runs a second sword, etc..)
2x3 (Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS) [only know of one guy who's in the mav thread. I'd imagine there are others]

[maharis]

jellydonut: You should read upthread, haha. I've practically been the conductor of the Spirit of the Labyrinth hype train in this deck.

But ultimately I decided I'd rather play Sylvan Library, and they are a nonbo. I am sort of taking a deep breath and doing that for Eternal Weekend since I do have GPTs and the GP to change my mind if the meta is just super soft to Spirit. The one thing I would note is that Elves isn't as soft to spirit as you would think. They have 7-8 ways to ignore it and still gain card/board advantage in a hurry, and while you're sitting there with the Spirit, they just swarm you. Spirit + SoFaF is nice, but takes precious turns to set up.

I wish I had thought to test this configuration:

-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Wasteland
-1 Bayou

+2 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog

-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Engineered Explosives

+2 Liliana of the Veil (sideboard)

Neither Knight nor Liliana are very good against Elves, though, and that has been such a thorn in my side it's probably warping my decision making. I board in like 12 cards for it and practically take stuff out at random. However in the UR matchup Knight dodges Bolt, blocks big Swiftspears, and cleans out their GY for treasure cruise.

As for the EE and the Therapy in the board: I think I want an additional sweeping effect due to Elves and Young Pyromancer (hence EE, which also deals with annoyances like Counterbalance and Pithing Needle on DRS/SFM).

Therapy is there because in the Northeast, especially at Eternal Weekend, I respect the presence of storm combo and sneak. It's also not terrible against other SFM decks, Elves, Miracles, even Burn (gives you a chance to take a couple biz spells out of their hand without paying life). It might be wrong, but it is hard for me to not want that safety blanket in a wide open meta like this.

It's non-targeted discard, like Liliana or Hymn, that I find lacking. Liliana is so good against decks that should have some amount of hangover like S&S, Miracles, old Blade builds, Thresh that I still feel like she belongs, but she is sadly ineffective against Delver

Tescrin: You are right about needing some fat, hence my last minute thoughts about Knight. I am going to find room for a Skull in the board as well to board in against decks where I don't want one sword or the other. In game 1, I do believe the CA of a sword hit is worth not having traditional fat.

Can't think too much more right now, gotta go grab my kid from preschool.

[tescrin]

You can get by Fatless, but usually such a list would be using BSK as their fat/trump. DGA and D&T are more the style. Something having:
-No TNN, no Goyf, No KotR, no BSK

is basically unheard of. Your list swapping the GSZ team (except Teeg) and (some) SFMs for Goyfs or swapping a sword for BSK seems much more fit to handle the midrange decks/game.

[iamajellydonut]

Benefits of EE

Benefits of Cabal:

I know what the cards do. It still doesn't justify their existence. Fact of the matter is that Engineered Explosives does something that half a dozen other cards do better, and that you can search it up changes little. Same with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy is a good card, no denying it. Note that I didn't suggest he take it out of the main (though I personally wouldn't prefer it), but it is not inherently a two-for-one as you seem to imply. "But I didn't say!" I don't give a fuck. Reality says it's a zero-for-one more often than it is a two-for-one, and the deck doesn't have an easy method of abuse. Lingering Souls doesn't count. And the only time you're boarding it in is against crap like ANT or Burn. Which happen to be decks where there is no single threat that you can blindly name and assume that you're winning if you hit and you're winning if they don't have it. If it's in the main, fine. It's a good catch-all. If you're boarding it (or its comrades) against any other deck that's not comparable to the two listed, you are doing it wrong. You don't need hordes of Thoughtseizes against your average deck. You need the Pithing Needles and the Zealous Persecutions.


maharis, you don't "need" fatties. Fatties are to present a clock and to survive Punishing Fire. Both of which you can do already do admirably. Kind of. Fortunately, the more problematic of the two, Punishing Fire, has been dying out as of late. If you want to add Knight of the Reliquary, do it. Knight of the Reliquary is an absolutely brilliant card. But don't put it in because you "need a fattie". Put it in because Knight of the Reliquary is a good card that does what you need it to do.

Also, don't discount Liliana entirely in terms of Elves. Yes, a 3cc Edict is pretty terrible against Elves. But so is a 1cc Swords to Plowshares in most circumstances. The key to Elves has always been creating a lock on them, and Liliana is a strong component of that lock. Also, also, don't confuse "UR Delver" with "Delver". She's lackluster against UR Delver, specifically Young Pyromancer, but she still kicks a mean dick against Delver in general.

Also, also, also, I knew I was forgetting something in the sideboard. I don't know what Ensnaring Bridge is supposed to be doing, but it should probably be replaced by something that's useful against more than one-ish deck.

[tescrin]

I know what the cards do. It still doesn't justify their existence. Fact of the matter is that Engineered Explosives does something that half a dozen other cards do better, and that you can search it up changes little. Same with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy is a good card, no denying it. Note that I didn't suggest he take it out of the main (though I personally wouldn't prefer it), but it is not inherently a two-for-one as you seem to imply. "But I didn't say!" I don't give a fuck. Reality says it's a zero-for-one more often than it is a two-for-one,

EE does several things that no other cards do even if claim to get it; you're just foolishly denying that it has value over other cards depending on the MUs he cares about:
-Gets through Counterbalance and Chalice <- maybe he cares about this. ZP and friends are useless here (mostly due to the deck archtype)
-Comes down T1 against Storm/Dredge <- maybe he cares about this. ZP and friends are (potentially/likely) useless here
-Is versatile <- ZP can't do much against Jund, Junk, or usually DGA. EE can come in as Decay #5
-It's tutorable <- means he doesn't have to dedicate as many slots to token killers
-It blocks angels as a win condition <- again, if he cares more about Miracles, Dominator of the Format instead of UR Delver, Flavor of the month.

I don't agree it's always the right thing, but your argument is that "Sometimes when it wins the game, you 1-for-0'd yourself; idiot!" which is simply a bad argument. If it wins you the game, it wins you the game. I don't care if I 1-for-0 myself against Dredge and then win nor do I care if I 1-for-0 a bunch of Souls the guy desperately needed. If it wins the game, it wins. Think about the scenario you're describing. Grindy Junk vs. Junk game or some such (souls.) That means we're just CA engines trying to grind the other out. I probably gained some CA earlier from Bob or Library. Wasting a card to shatter board presence is good in many scenarios and you can force a Souls to be cast by simply playing a DRS or having one. They double-cast, boom; it's a 1-for-1 @2 mana vs. 5.

As a guy who used to *Maindeck* 2-3 EEs it's a freaking good card. The most notable 2-for-1's are the SFM for Jitte's; where they play out against your mediocre board and you punish them for it. D&T is extremely vulnerable to it since they run plays like the above, or Vial->Mom->Thalia. Now you, for 3 mana, eat vial + mom and ruin their ability to creep on board.

It's extremely relevant to Token combo, Miracles, and D&T; while being average->mediocre against Gxx decks and Delver. It depends on the MUs you wish to shore up. I removed it because my Delver game was weaker than I wanted and removed it from the side because I wanted more non-kill hate.

Can you keep in mind that cards like Choke are also essentially 1-for-0?



and the deck doesn't have an easy method of abuse [cabal therapy]. Lingering Souls doesn't count. And the only time you're boarding it in is against crap like ANT or Burn. Which happen to be decks where there is no single threat that you can blindly name and assume that you're winning if you hit and you're winning if they don't have it. If it's in the main, fine. It's a good catch-all. If you're boarding it (or its comrades) against any other deck that's not comparable to the two listed, you are doing it wrong. You don't need hordes of Thoughtseizes against your average deck. You need the Pithing Needles and the Zealous Persecutions..

Cabal still 2-for-1s in ways that are important. It's not super often; but again; consider something like:
-You Cabal naming infernal; you see they have 2 Rituals, 1 RoFs, an LED, a ponder, and a land
-Next turn; you play any 1-drop, cabal for a 2-for-2 net

It's crucial to point out that you couldn't have done anything there with a TS. They'd still have 8 mana. With Cabal they have 5. If that allows you to survive one more turn and get a Lily softlock on them, hatebears, or whatever; great!

It's more of anti-combo, I'd agree; but things to keep in mind:
-sdematt runs 2 main and I'd wager he's a better player than you
-SFM is a 2-for-1 and thus is a great candidate for Therapy (as you simply trade your useless squire for value if you have other sword carriers/didn't get BSK)
-Sometimes you have to Charm/ZP/Deluge/EE when you'd kill your own stuff; getting value or potential value out of your "going to die anyway" guys is good.

I'd take out TS against SFM decks before Therapy (and probably leave it in) simply because it has a lot of opportunities to hit. Sometimes it's better to turn Bob or DRS into a Thoughtseize instead; especially if you saw a high value hit. Turning DRS into a QPM when the opponent just drew BSK is timely and really handy I'd wager.



It's been awhile since I used therapy's, but when I did they were very high value and reliable. Keep in mind that Therapy has reasonable value against Dredge (exile bridges, hit looting effects)
EDIT: I should point out that every fair deck in recent years with Top 8 appearances (aside from the short lived Grixis Delver, the anti-combo Zombardment that is dead, and the flavor of the month UR Delver) have fat (of which I count TNN, BSK, Goyf, and KotR.)

All of them for *years.* I would trust myriad 100's of Top 8's with tens of thousands of players competing to reveal what's good more than an anecdote of "don't just play fat."

[iamajellydonut]

EDIT: I should point out that every fair deck in recent years with Top 8 appearances (aside from the short lived Grixis Delver and the flavor of the month UR Delver) have fat (of which I count TNN, BSK, Goyf, and KotR.)

Just because decks often run fatties doesn't mean they must. Junk hasn't won a top eight since it was called Maverick, and Maverick died out for a reason. Why harp "you must have fatties" based on history when history has failed us?

[sdematt]

Top 8s mean a little and a lot. If only 1-2 play it per SCG your chances of getting mucked by variance are huge. If enough people played Junk like they did Miracles you should have better penetrance.

[iamajellydonut]

If only 1-2 play it per SCG your chances of getting mucked by variance are huge. If enough people played Junk like they did Miracles you should have better penetrance.

Yes, that is the reason some decks aren't as "good", but the fact of the matter is that Maverick fundamentally got pushed out of the format. If people want to incorporate elements that were part of Maverick into the deck, go for it. Green Sun's Zenith is an amazing card and so is Knight of the Reliquary. But if you shove pieces into the deck because of that one time they were played, you're going to end up with that dead deck and you're going run into the gruesome reasons for its demise. I love Rock. I love Jund. I love all these BG/BW/GW/x shells. But if you want to slug it out ten rounds, you're going to have to sail, relatively speaking, uncharted waters to compensate for the stagnant core.

Edit: I just did a quick search of Dark Confidant+Abrupt Decay+Swords to Plowshares. The only time that those three in combination have ever placed at a Star City event was two years ago by you. That's not indicative of simply being underplayed.