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tescrin
10-25-2014, 12:18 PM
Just because decks often run fatties doesn't mean they must. Junk hasn't won a top eight since it was called Maverick, and Maverick died out for a reason. Why harp "you must have fatties" based on history when history has failed us?

This is a fair view; experimentation is the only way we'll arrive at innovative advances that work. I'll say, to add to Matt's point, Maverick has had a smattering of Top8s this year at SCGs (Warden, 2x Herzog, others?)

Warden
10-25-2014, 11:01 PM
This is a fair view; experimentation is the only way we'll arrive at innovative advances that work. I'll say, to add to Matt's point, Maverick has had a smattering of Top8s this year at SCGs (Warden, 2x Herzog, others?)

Herzog has 3x if I'm not mistaken

On another note, I beat Junk Souls with Maverick today. He didn't have KotR or Goyf and that was the real weakness of the deck. I punished him with Mom/Thalia/KotR against his Liliana/Sculler/DRS. If he went more traditional "discard + big green guys" I think he could have put up a better fight. It's another issue decks in the format are suffering and part of the reason I'm responding to this post. I'm all for "experimentation", but people should also move back towards "consistency". Non-blue decks running singletons just isn't where the meta should be. I think we should embrace running 3x and 4x things again. A deck full of random bullets only goes so far. You can theory-craft and next-level-tech all day...but when you lose your 1x [insert cute answer to a caddy corner situation], you simply lose.
His sculler was way stronger than I thought it would be...unfort that was his strongest attacker outside of SFM + equips. He also didn't run Hymns and couldn't capitalize on early discard.

T-101
10-26-2014, 01:28 AM
I played in a monthly 1K today with the following list.

4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Lingering Souls
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Green Sun's Zenith

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

60 Cards

1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Darkblast
1x Nihil Spellbomb

Heavily inspired by sdematt's list 2 pages back. I didn't want to push the Dark Depths plan as hard as that list (no Hexmages, Loams, or Living Wish), and I wanted a second mainboard ass-beater. A Stoneforge package is really appealing to me right now because of all the sweet equips vs U/R and DnT, and she doesn't require a graveyard (I freaking hate when RiP colds my board, even when playing answers to it).

I usually go with Goyf and Bob, but since I wanted to have a Waste-em-out and Dark Depths plan, Knight took the yard-dependant-big-dude slot. With U/R Delver shooting up in popularity because of Ancestral Recall's unbanning, I didn't want to play Bob either because of the life loss is not good when they start repeatedly bolting your face. Hopefully U/R gets slaughtered at the GP, and people stop playing it so much, because I really, really like playing Bob.

I often run 61, and pondered a Qasali Pridemage in the main. I was reading some articles this past week about the logic and viability of 61+, and decided to be disciplined and stick to 60.

The sideboard was thrown together this morning from my pile of sweet Junk sideboard cards. With 4 Wastes, a Dark Depths, a Stage, and a Tabernacle making only 23 lands, Cabal Pit was shoved in the side. That card is sweet, but I figured I'd just bring it in vs. creature decks. Tower of the Magistrate is always in the Knight wheelhouse, and I ran it today expecting some DnT and possibly some UWR. Bog always belongs in the 75 when you're playing Knight. More Teegs and Krosan Grip for Miracles and other stuff, Darkblast and Zealous Persecution are sweet vs unflipped Delvers, Pyromancers, Lavamancers, and the entire DnT deck. Qasali didn't make the main, so he's in the board. Needle is always good to have, and a 2nd Scooze and a Spellbomb round out the yard hate.

Last week I was stoked about Chains again... and just like last time I thought it would be cool, it was very bad. It sounds so sweet in theory, but I'm starting to agree with Tescrin in that it might just be expensive garbage. I think I might unload 'em at the GP and get some shiny cards.

THE GAMES!

Round 1 vs. DnT

I played this guy a week or 2 ago at a weekly, and his list is sweet. He plays Leonin Arbiter, and Ghost Quarter and he's been doing really well with them. Game 1 grinds on, but eventually I die to Thalia and triple Arbiter backed up by 2 MoMs. That really jacked up my Knight plans. In game 2 I Zealous Persecution away Mindcensor + Thalia and start beating in. He plays 2 Revokers, naming Deathrite and Liliana. I Swords the Deathrite one and finish him off with Lingering Souls, Deathrite, and Knight. Game 3 he gets kinda screwed, suck on 1 Wasteland and a Vial. He's got 1 or 2 STPs, but no white mana for quite a while, and I win.

Record 1/0

Round 2 vs. U/R Delver

He goes crazy with Pyromancer, Swiftspear and Delver both games. In game 2 I got a Batterskull down, but it gets bolted after blocking. I flood out a bit, return it, and redeploy it, but get dropped to exactly zero on the next turn. Ancestral Recall is a helluva card, and I am kinda salty.

Record 1/1

Round 3 vs. Jund

After much back and forth, we each take a game. He gets stuck on Wasteland and Bayou in game 3, and I drop a Needle for Liliana. I take a few hits from a 5/6 Goyf, but I'm attacking with a Knight with Jitte. He finds an Ancient Grudge and takes out Jitte and Needle, leaving him with 1 card in hand. For some reason I still have a Thoughtseize in my deck, and take his last card which is Liliana. Knight becomes too big to deal with, and he's dead.

Record 2/1

Round 4 vs. Deathblade

I mull to 5 on the play, and keep Scooze, Deathrite, 3 lands. He STPs Deathrite, but Scooze sticks. He Stoneforges for Batterskull, and I Therapy it. I waste his white source, and somehow Scooze goes the entire distance. In game2 , he STPs a couple of my guys, but I end up with an active Knight. I could have gone for the Dark Depths plan, but if he had found another STP that would be terrible. Instead I take what I see as the safer and find 3 Wastelands to put him down to a single Underground Sea, then bash him to death with Knight.

Record 3/1

Round 5 vs. Mono Red Painter.

In game 1 I get Mooned, and scoop the turn before can activate Grindstone. I think he only saw Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Wasteland, Green Sun and Deathrite because he says, "How's Elves been today?" I say, "Pretty good, its gotten me to 3/1, so that's cool." In game 2 I get Needle on Grindstone, Krosan Grip and Abrupt Decay for his Blood Moon, and Magus of the Moon. Then I get Stoneforge Elf, Qasali Elfmage, and Elf of the Reliquary and kill him. In game 3 I make a 20/20 Marit Elf, and kill him. Elves are sweet.

Record 4/1

Round 6 vs A dude who I think is probably on U/R Delver.

An ID locks us both in for Top 8, so we draw.

-------------------------

Quarterfinals vs. Goblins

I don't recognize this guy, but his deck is lying face up showing me a Goblin Matron on top. He's 3rd seed, so he plays. He goes Vial pass, I go Deathrite pass. He goes Piledriver pass, I pass, and Abrupt Decay the Vial on his upkeep because he didn't Vial in a Lackey on my turn. He plays a Warchief and bashes for 5. I play a Knight of the Reliquary who is a 3/3, tapping all my land, and leaving Deathrite untapped. On his turn 4, he plays a Matron for 2 mana, finds a Gempalm Incinerator. He taps out to Incinerate my Knight, but I use Deathrite on his fetchland and STP his Warchief, so Knight only takes 2. I make another Knight, and after a turn with their powers combined, they are... Captain Marit Lage.

In game 2 he gets a sweet old school Goblins draw. I think I'm not in the worst shape, but he has a Warchief in play. He ticks Vial up to 4, vials in a Ringleader, and hits 2 Piledrivers and a Chieftain, casts them all that turn, and I'm super dead.

Game 3 goes very long, he Ringleaders at least twice, once hitting double Incinerator + Matron, but my Jitte on Souls with Sylvan Safekeeper backup hang in there. He gets a Siege Gang, but I kill it with something, and I poke for several turns with a Jitte'd Soul, keeping just enough counters to kill Warchiefs and Chieftains when they show up. Eventually he swings for what could be lethal with 3 Siege Gang tokens, a Matron, and a Ringleader, but play Zealous Persecution which wipes his board. I win with Jitte'd Soul the next turn.

Semifinals vs. UWR Delver

It's the guy I drew with in Round 6. I'm higher seed so I get to play. 2 very longs games go by where we both get Stoneforge for Batterskull going. We are trading guys for removal, but I end up getting the win after 2 very long games.

Finals vs. U/R Delver

It's the guy who beat me in Round 2. He's higher seed, but we agree to split, and we are both $300 store credit richer.

Bleh I'm tired of typing.

ForlornEgoist
10-26-2014, 02:24 AM
Alright, well, I know I just posted a page or two ago and I've done very little to change said list but as SCG: Minneapolis starts up in about 8 hours I figure I'd post the list I finalized on. I'll do my best to take notes so I can write up a report afterwards:


x4 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Windswept Heath
x2 Marsh Flats
x3 Scrubland
x2 Bayou
x1 Savannah
x3 Wasteland
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Stirring Wildwood
x1 Dryad Arbor

x4 Thoughtseize
x2 Cabal Therapy
x4 Swords to Plowshare
x2 Green Sun's Zenith
x3 Abrupt Decay
x2 Sylvan Library
x2 Lingering Souls

x2 Liliana of the Veil
x1 Umezawa's Jitte
x1 Batterskull

x2 Tarmogoyf
x1 Scavenging Ooze
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Stoneforge Mystic

Nothing too out of the ordinary. I'm still contemplating the Wildwood. I've enjoyed having it but it is completely understandable why I would be better off not running it. I'm glad I remembered Ooze as he's a highly relevant threat that provides GY control AND gifts me with life.


x2 Enlightened Tutor
x1 Oblivion Ring
x1 Sword of Fire and Ice
x2 Choke
x1 Engineered Plague
x1 Engineered Explosives
x1 Phyrexian Revoker (will try to trade for a Pithing Needle)
x2 Rest in Peace
x2 Krosan Grip
x2 Gaddock Teeg

Well, I'd love to talk more about my list but it's pretty straight forward and I'm due to get up in about 7 hours so I should probably hit the sack. May all your top decks be fortuitous!

Forlorn

tescrin
10-26-2014, 03:09 AM
@T-101 Congrats!

I played a lousy 2-2-1 tonight vs. Elves (1-2), Burn (2-0), Elves (2-0), Burn (1-2), Zombardment (1-1-1)

First elves could've been a win and sent me up to better MUs, but I IoK'd the wrong card (Symbiote instead of Ranger) and he got a T2 Progenitus. UGh.

Ran a pair of Orzhov Pontiff, and IMO; he's the real deal. In the Elves of course he board wiped them a couple of times. Against Burn he killed a couple of grim lavamancers and carried a sword. Against Zombies he killed a couple of bobs and a couple of zombies (and again, carried a sword.)

I'm going back to Top. Had my Libraries blown up every time and got double library a couple times.. I like having reliable manipulation and the versatility of being a psuedo-cantrip.


"Props" - racing a Craterhoof with no friends, plowing a KotR to beat Burn M2G1, Pontiff killing hordes of elves 3-4 times.
"Slops"* - Mull to 3 for lands against Burn M2G3. (REALLY DECK?) MUs were weird. Taking the wrong target from an Elf god hand (had Teeg in hand too.)


*got this from Bed Decks Palyer. Sorry fer plagurgasms

maharis
10-27-2014, 09:58 AM
So I had a pretty terrible Eternal Weekend, going 0-4-1 and really only playing the last round because I was waiting for a friend who is local to show up so we could go to the bar and talk about anything but Magic. Ha.

My matches were Ru Cruise Burn (volcs only for cruise) 1-2, Deathblade 0-2, UR delver 1-1-1, Deathblade 1-2, Miracles 0-2. I played the last list I posted with Knights instead of Lilianas. I added a Bog and a Karakas as well. I lost the die roll in my first two matches, won in the third, lost the fourth, and didn't note what happened in the 5th. I played 2 Liliana in the sideboard instead of Bridge and EE.

In match 1, I lost game 3 at exactly 3 life to a top-decked bolt. I was wondering if I net a loss of life by sequencing poorly. After winning game 2, I on the draw kept Forest, Heath, STP, Sylvan, Canonist, and SoFI. I played Heath and passed. He suspended a rift bolt. I fetched for basic plains (PoP was a real card in this match), played my forest, and decided to play Sylvan instead of Canonist. My reasoning was that the Canonist was just going to eat the rift bolt anyway and I wanted to be able to dig earlier for answers. He Bolted me and suspended another. Luck is on my side! I found a fetch, played my Canonist, and passed. In his upkeep he riftbolted me, then read canonist, then passed. In my upkeep, he Smashed canonist. I responded by Swordsing it. At the end of the game, knowing I was at exactly 3, I wondered if I actually lost life by not playing Canonist first, making him Rift Bolt it and then having no targets for his Smash. Though eventually I would've played an artifact, I might have gained an extra turn and forced him to kill a DRS or something.

In match 2, I mulled on the draw to fetch, wasteland, double thoughtseize and two other cards, then drew Thoughtseize. In game 2 I made an aggressive play to fetch Dryad Arbor end of his turn 1 after he Pondered. I played Library off a basic plains and he forced it. Then he swordsed Arbor. I had two other lands, but they were both Bayou and he found double wasteland off Brainstorm then played Stoneforge into Skull. My feeling was that he wasn't pressuring the board and I wanted to get a creature down early so I could stick a sword to it. That might have been wrong but I really wanted to go for it before he got some bombs down. The fact that a four-color deck can play double wasteland is a testament to the power of Brainstorm.

In match 3, I got a warning for looking at extra cards when in the midst of resolving Library I knocked a third card off the top when putting two back. My opponent and the judge were both calm in resolving the error. In the midst of a tough time for the game — and especially given that we were all cranky after the very late start — that was nice.

Match 4 was fun. He won game 1, I Knight-wasted him out game 2, and in game 3 I needed to topdeck any creature to win (he had a batterskull, but I had swords of F&F and F&I on board and he had an empty hand) but I did not get there.

In match 5, dejected and exhausted (I woke up at 5 to leave NYC for Philly, then we had the notorious delay), I for the first time since I started playing legacy seriously neglected to count my sideboard before the match. And so when I GSZ'd for 2 to find my MD Teeg and it wasn't there, I called the judge on myself. I got a game loss, and we went to game 2. It wasn't going terrible, but I conceded early when I saw my friend wandering the room, dropped, and let my opponent move on.

Variance and tempo were much more important than I expected. I was 3-1-1 on the play in my first four rounds. (I honestly don't remember who won the die roll in the Miracles match). I will concede that I might have made a crucial play error in going for Arbor early in game 2 vs. Deathblade, but I pretty much only lost to exactly STP & double Wasteland.

The meta you saw on stream was no joke. It was dominated by the blue-red Delver decks. There was more Deathblade than I expected, it was a popular opponent that my group saw and they weren't all in the 0-x brackets like me, haha.

I know it's a depressing report but hopefully now you will all remember to count your sideboards before your matches.

iamajellydonut
10-27-2014, 10:18 AM
What lands did you take out for Karakas and Bog, and did you ever add a second Green Sun's Zenith?

How did you board against the R/u Burn that Cannonist was even in the deck to be in that scenario (didn't make a difference, btw)? Burn does not care about Cannonist. He has no reason to ever kill it except if it becomes something more than a Grizzly Bear. He has nothing to gain by killing that Cannonist. It's no threat. It doesn't prevent him from doing anything. Without Liliana, Duress, Inquisition, or Hymn, you have no relevant discard that can take advantage of a swamped hand. He can take his time and grind you down without a care in the world because his clock is still faster than yours. He can still suspend Rift Bolt into suspended Rift Bolt. He can still Lava Spike on his turn and Lightning Bolt you on your turn. And, at any point, he can Sear it or Smash it.

Fetching up Dryad Arbor was an enormous mistake. Unless you have a Sword active and ready or are doing some cute body trick, there's no reason to fetch up Dryad Arbor. You should even think twice before digging it up with Green Sun's Zenith.

maharis
10-27-2014, 10:52 AM
I know Arbor was a mistake. My plan was to get my guy down while holding up STP. And it worked: I killed a DRS the same turn. Him finding double waste after killing Arbor was pretty lucky.

I think I took out Bob and Thoughtseize and brought in Canonist, Grip, Teeg, Liliana x2 and Spellbomb x2. Canonist is as much a warm body as it is an attempt to slow them down. If I play Bob there, I surely lose anyway. It's a bad matchup for us no matter what you do.

I took out a Bayou and a Wasteland for the utlity lands. I didn't add a GSZ but I wish I had. In fact, I toyed with cutting Bob entirely before the tournament and adding 2 GSZ and a Kitchen Finks. I had a feeling I was going to miss lifegain and I certainly did. Batterskull, one of the lifegain swords, even something like Basilisk Collar would've been nice to have access to.

I really liked Knight though, when I had her in play she dominated. The Mav deck that top-8'd was a good choice for the day.

iamajellydonut
10-27-2014, 11:05 AM
I think I took out Bob ... If I play Bob there, I surely lose anyway.

Burn is a bad match-up, but this is not correct.

Losing life off of Dark Confidant is not exceptionally relevant when you consider the advantages him. Your only goal is to present a clock. By replacing Dark Confidant with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Cannonist and Krosan Grip, you eliminate your win condition. The average life lost for your deck per Dark Confidant reveal is 1.13. You have the potential to lose more off of fetch lands.

tescrin
10-27-2014, 11:41 AM
I'll second that. I took some number of bobs out for Elves but that's because I had 3 Deluge, 3 Teeg, 2 Cage, 1 TS. Bob wants a long game and I felt the Deluge anti-synergy was too heavy*. Aside from combo games where you have too much to side in, I'd always leave him in. Even then, usually in combo I have stuff that's more dead since Bob draws you interaction.

[*Again, i only feel that way given that it was Elves and I'd be Deluging whenever it seemed opportune (which is basically any time 2+ elves are on board.) I did something like -1 Lily, -3 KotR, -SoLaS, X other things (one time was library since I was blown out the first match by reclamation sage eating 2 libraries with me never seeing a benefit..) and -X bob as whatever was left.
Normally I'd leave Bob in next to Deluge since he'll get CA before you Deluge anyway]

Swinging for 2 or killing a goblin guide is a thing too.


@maharis
Maverick is well positioned I think. it disrupts so well while trumping threats with KotR and surviving removal spam with Mom that it'll probably make a come back while people are screwing around with Cruise. Miracles has to be pushed out by other decks if we expect to see more Maverick/Junk though.

tescrin
10-29-2014, 12:40 AM
Played a fun bit tonight for practice, going what I'd call 2-1.

S&T - 1-2
G1 - I have a strong hand of discard pieces and am unsure what he's on. I pick his hand apart but find no good clock.
G2 - I he S&T's and I have a Thalia on board. I put SoLaS down banking on griselbrand and it half-works. Had I not equipped I could've had enough mana for decay; but I was figuring he hadn't mooned yet so I must be safe. He moons, my Lily and Decay are stuck in hand. Life is sad.
G3 - (this isn't a tournament) He has a greedy keep and is punished for it. It almost pays off when he sneaks for Gris + Emmy, but I let him sac 6 of my things since I have an equipped sculler and Knight. I bounce to save my life total knowing that he's low enough he can't get through karakas + swarm.

Team America - 2-0
G1 - He has a strong start and I keep a weaker hand; but he can only keep a DRS on the table. Eventually I have too many bombs. No cruising today.
G2 - Super slow/grindy. I have to force him to kill a couple scullers by taking removal so he slowly spends it all. After that I go double DRS to pressure his cruise. He kills one, forces a Jitte, and maybe something else to finally cruise. He cruises at least twice, maybe three times this game; but I have Lily after the first one and grind him down. Eventually I land bob and am pushing through grindy beats.

D&T - 1-0 (shop was closing)
G1 - I TS and see he's D&T. Take BSK and have a Pontiff in hand. OH YES. I durdle around and almost screw myself getting so greedy with the blowout; but eventually it lands as a 3-for-1. I bob for about a hundred turns before my board presence is able to go through Thalia efficiently.


I mostly post this because this is my third cruise match; and they finally casted it (multiple times!) but I was fine. Lily is fantastic if you make them tap out for cruise. He's +1 CA when she drops, gets a card they just drew, and if he lives another turn you've already tied cruise. I was enjoying that the discard in the deck wasn't dead in the mid game. I think cruise hinders TA a little bit since they can't actively DRS your health down if they want cruise to be live when drawn. He said he had been practicing with it quite a bit; I just think cruise isn't enough to turn Delver decks into a problem for us.

Play of the night? Fetched to bait a stifle and then played SFM right after. He basically had to stifle it given the hidden information he was playing around (and he probably felt great after that cruise!) but SFM forced him to use the decay on the Jitte and helped cancel the CA/gas cruise tried to get him.

sdematt
10-30-2014, 01:59 PM
Where we all at, gents?

-Matt

iamajellydonut
10-30-2014, 02:02 PM
Where we all at, gents?

-Matt

I'm in the kitchen making Ellio's.

Goblin Cabdriver
10-31-2014, 10:21 AM
Here's the list I'll probably play in NJ:

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Ooze
3 Lingering Souls

3 liliana

4 abrupt decay
3 StP
4 thoughtsieze
2 cabal therapy

2 sylvan library
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sofi

4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 bayou
3 scrubland
1 savannah
1 plains/swamp/forest

sb

3 gaddock teeg
2 chains of mephistopholes
2 toxic deluge
2 ethersworn cannonist
2 grafdiggers cage
2 pithing needle
1 zealous persecution
1 sword of light and shadow


I might cut a wasteland for another fetch, I need those shuffle effects! I tried chains for the first time last week, I'm not sure how much I like it tbh. I sided it in against bug delver with cruise, had it in my opening hand, but never had a good chance to play it out until it was too late... I had to spend the early turns taking care of his threats. Plus I sided out my sylvan libraries for them, but in the end game when I was trying to dig for a decay I really wished the chains were a library. How do we improve the delver match-up?

T-101
10-31-2014, 12:22 PM
I haven't gotten to play since last Sunday, but I'm going to SCG Oakland this weekend.

I was very happy with how the deck performed, but I'd like to make the U/R Delver match up better while not sacrificing anything to Miracles game 1. Cards I'm considering are another STP in the main, 1 or 2 Sylvan Libraries somewhere, and perhaps a Manriki Gusari in the board for Death and Taxes. I also want to test 2x Absolute Law in the sideboard before NJ, but I doubt I'll have enough time to test it before SCG Oakland.

maharis
10-31-2014, 01:27 PM
I'm playing Nic Fit at a GPT this weekend which might be my last time playing Legacy until the GP other than informal playtesting (some work travel coming up). Hopefully I'll get a good meta representation in my rounds to decide which is better positioned. My inclination is that sweepers + bombs are better than Confidant and Liliana as advantage engines at the moment, but boy is this deck better against combo.

In hindsight, my EW matchups were pretty close, and I did screw myself in one game by allowing myself to get tilted (I knew the player and he is super annoying.) I beat the UR delver deck when I won the die roll, and we went to time pretty early in game 3 partially because they didn't give us nearly enough of an extension from the judge call. I could see myself playing a Junk build at the GP if Saturday goes really poorly.

Claymore
10-31-2014, 01:56 PM
4 DRS
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Ooze
3 Lingering Souls


I've played this before, and I gotta say it was horrible. Zero clock, threats are very vulnerable/low impact, and even when you get hand and board locked down you can't close out the game with 2 1/1 fliers. "Oh but I have SFM". Your SFM will die. Immediately. Honestly I would consider wrath effects/Comeuppance so you don't get blown out in the early game. This deck needs a big fattie to proactively protect (discard) and then close out the game with.

sdematt
10-31-2014, 02:31 PM
And thats why you need Goyf/Knight.

Goblin Cabdriver
10-31-2014, 03:08 PM
I've played this before, and I gotta say it was horrible. Zero clock, threats are very vulnerable/low impact, and even when you get hand and board locked down you can't close out the game with 2 1/1 fliers. "Oh but I have SFM". Your SFM will die. Immediately. Honestly I would consider wrath effects/Comeuppance so you don't get blown out in the early game. This deck needs a big fattie to proactively protect (discard) and then close out the game with.

It's definitely slow... What would you cut for goyfs or some other beater?

sdematt
10-31-2014, 03:37 PM
It's definitely slow... What would you cut for goyfs or some other beater?

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Ooze

+3 Goyf

You end up at 61, but I'm sure it's fine.

Also, not sure if Chains is enough or necessary. If you're looking to improve the delver matchup, specifically BUG, SoFaF is really good, as is just more spot removal. They have few creatures that really matter, and all of them die to STP/Decay. Path to Exile is also good if you really wanted it.

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extra removal
2 Open



-Matt

Claymore
10-31-2014, 04:38 PM
Engineered Plague is very strong against UR Delver. It preemptively kills all their threats other than Swiftspear, which you can just Decay. It's still a flexible wipe if a Pyro has been popping off. It also serves to eliminate Elves and helps against Human-centric lists like DnT.

Plague has some side use against BUG to kill TNN...a little clunky, but is a nice bonus to that sideboard slot.

Alternatively, investigate Ghostly Prison.

Final two slots I'd say CoP:Red or some anti-combo tech like Ethersworn.

T-101
11-02-2014, 04:10 PM
Went 0/3 drop at the SCG today :(

Round 1 was against a hateful brew including 4 Sinkhole, 4 Smallpox, 4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana... and splashing blue for 4 Stifle. I got the first game, but 2 and 3 I was struggling for mana, and eventually I get to zero lands, zero creatures, for several turns staring down active Liliana and Deathrite...

Round 2 was against Burn. He killed both my T1 Deathrite Shamans, and proceeded to double Eidolon me both games.

Round 3 was against BUG Delver with True-Name and Cruise. I got him game 1, but 2 and 3 I get Wastelanded pretty hard, and smashed with Goyfs.

The round 1 deck was a spicey one, that Junk happened to line up very poorly against. It felt like I had some bad luck in round 2 and 3, but that's Magic. I found some glee in the fact that not once did I face down an Emrakul, Blood Moon, nor a Pyromancer.

I probably would have stayed just to enjoy some Legacy, but there's a 49ers game starting in 20 minutes.

sdematt
11-02-2014, 04:14 PM
Went 0/3 drop at the SCG today :(

Round 1 was against a hateful brew including 4 Sinkhole, 4 Smallpox, 4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana... and splashing blue for 4 Stifle. I got the first game, but 2 and 3 I was struggling for mana, and eventually I get to zero lands, zero creatures, for several turns staring down active Liliana and Deathrite...

Round 2 was against Burn. He killed both my T1 Deathrite Shamans, and proceeded to double Eidolon me both games.

Round 3 was against BUG Delver with True-Name and Cruise. I got him game 1, but 2 and 3 I get Wastelanded pretty hard, and smashed with Goyfs.

The round 1 deck was a spicey one, that Junk happened to line up very poorly against. It felt like I had some bad luck in round 2 and 3, but that's Magic. I found some glee in the fact that not once did I face down an Emrakul, Blood Moon, nor a Pyromancer.

I probably would have stayed just to enjoy some Legacy, but there's a 49ers game starting in 20 minutes.

Don't feel to bad. It happens :/

-Matt

maharis
11-02-2014, 05:33 PM
T-101, did you play your knight list from a couple pages back? I really like that build.

Unfortunately your experience seems like par for the course for our deck nowadays. Wonky brew, burn, delver boss hand, thanks for coming.

T-101
11-02-2014, 06:03 PM
It was the same list. I still like the list, just didn't pan out today. Between drafting a sweet double Secret Plans deck, and playing in standard on Saturday, I didn't have time to tune at all. Still want that 4th STP, and Libraries.

In other news, I'm weary of Show and Tell and Reanimator at the GP. Elesh Norn is an Uber-Trump against both Delver and Death and Taxes. The new hate bear might be worth boarding.

Warden
11-02-2014, 10:04 PM
It was the same list. I still like the list, just didn't pan out today. Between drafting a sweet double Secret Plans deck, and playing in standard on Saturday, I didn't have time to tune at all. Still want that 4th STP, and Libraries.

In other news, I'm weary of Show and Tell and Reanimator at the GP. Elesh Norn is an Uber-Trump against both Delver and Death and Taxes. The new hate bear might be worth boarding.

I'm totally with you here. I do not think Maverick will be a good call. I kinda need decays + liliana for a wider field.
THe new hate bear is $15 to pre-order. I can't justify that without testing

iamajellydonut
11-02-2014, 11:38 PM
THe new hate bear is $15 to pre-order. I can't justify that without testing

Why not? It's a better Gaddock (sans-GSZ) against Elves, it shuts off Dredge, it works against SnT, it works against D&T. So far I'm liking the notion of Containment Priest over (at least one) extra copies of Gaddock in the board simply because you only need one Gaddock for tutoring, and Containment Priest is so much better against the decks Junk needs help with.

Megadeus
11-03-2014, 01:48 AM
Yeah. New bear seems insane. Even in the fair match ups he flashes in to harass a walker or carry a weapon unexpectedly. At worst he's ambush viper?

iamajellydonut
11-03-2014, 08:48 AM
Yeah. New bear seems insane. Even in the fair match ups he flashes in to harass a walker or carry a weapon unexpectedly. At worst he's ambush viper?

I mean, I'm not as excited as you are about Containment Priest, but I think it can be generally agreed that if you're not putting in a copy for the GP somewhere in the 75, you're probably doing it wrong.

T-101
11-03-2014, 09:46 AM
Ambush Vipers are not the worst. It isn't rare to see Snapcaster come down to trick block a sweet creature like Bob, Eidolon, Nettle Sentinel, the random Ichorid, etc.

Like Megadeus said, this guy also has the hidden text, "Can wear equipment." Very tricksy on a Flash guy.

That all adds up to a pretty decent worst case scenario. And the best case scenario is that this guy says "You win the game." There's been few noteworthy new Legacy cards for the last couple sets, so I don't mind going for $10 to $15 Priests.

maharis
11-03-2014, 10:06 AM
Ambush Vipers are not the worst. It isn't rare to see Snapcaster come down to trick block a sweet creature like Bob, Eidolon, Nettle Sentinel, the random Ichorid, etc.

Like Megadeus said, this guy also has the hidden text, "Can wear equipment." Very tricksy on a Flash guy.

That all adds up to a pretty decent worst case scenario. And the best case scenario is that this guy says "You win the game." There's been few noteworthy new Legacy cards for the last couple sets, so I don't mind going for $10 to $15 Priests.

I agree with all this. I am the kind of guy would play a pudding cup if it had flash. Haha I just love getting blue players who are like "derr they can't do anything about what i'm doing nice thoughtseize."

It shores up your S&T, Reanimator, Elves, even D&T if that's an issue. I am a big believer in Flash against Miracles too — say they Terminus on your turn, untap, cast Jace, brainstorm, pass. You flash this guy in and they probably have to fight over it, especially if you have any sort of sword down, otherwise Jace goes to 1 and they have to decide what to do about your creature while you will have mana open on your turn. It's why I love Scryb Ranger. Can't be Pierced or REB'd so it's either a Force + blue card or they have to have UU for counterspell (assuming no CB).

Obviously it does very little in the Delver and Blade matchups, and against Storm as well. So how many you run and where they are in the 75 is a matter of what you expect from a metagame. Oh, if only it gained 3 life when it ETB as well haha.

tescrin
11-03-2014, 12:25 PM
Went 2-2 this last week. +Rb Burn, +BG brew, -BURG delver, -Dredge..(GAH)

I think Dredge was just too swingy (mull to 3 and a mull to 2 on my part. The first couple hands were garbage. The following became mull for hate.) BURG just had way too much action for a Delver deck. He must've seen 5+ threats and 4+ removal both games.



Burn is becoming a lot easier as I go. I got to fight a Rw version after the tourny and also beat that. Sculler seems to help by simply making their deck inefficient allowing time for the equips + DRS to do work me up to about a 50:50 ratio; way up from my 10:90 or so a couple months ago.

I'll probably nab some priests soon (they'll drop) as my SCGs aren't until Dec. Keep in mind they don't help at all against Storm combos (good or bad), and they don't work well in Maverick or D&T meaning they'll have little they can easily slot into (UWR Delver may run them, we can run them, Miracles will maybe run them.) . Because of these I caution buying expensive ones since they'll also be competing for SB slots with arguably better bears.

I think she complements SFM for reasons others mentioned and complements KotR since he attacks the same decks (S&T, Reanimator, Dredge) but a turn earlier (allowing you stabilization pieces into a critical mass.) I could see it replacing Cage in the side.

tescrin
11-06-2014, 06:33 PM
I was due for some practice tonight but a recent move has made me pretty busy; so instead I just have theory for people.

I've been a big proponent of SDT (or Library) in general, but I think I'm moving away from them during this season's Combo vs. Delver climax. I could be wrong (hence why I'm gearing up for any testing I can get) but I think I'm moving to this list:

Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


I've been wanting 6 Discard main for combo and Sculler I don't officially count (and works much better next to real discard.)
The Goyfs are back for testing since KotR has felt too slow in my combo MUs (and the MUs have been the wrong ones) and he's definitely weaker for Delver.

I was mostly posting to discuss the possible merits of dropping manipulation if having straight action may be better in a meta of very fast decks.

sdematt
11-07-2014, 10:21 AM
Played my Hexmage brew to a 3-1 finish last night, good enough for 3rd place. Lost to Patriot Cruise Delver because Treasure Cruise can be absurd.

I'm not sure I like it enough to buy Dark Depths, but the list was fine. I think you want Crop Rotations in the deck, though. You REALLY miss not having manipulation/card draw in that deck via Sylvan or Top. When you do win, you're just usually herp-derping them with a 20/20.

Knight was generally fine, but he was hardly ever "big" unless I was already in control. TNN did becomes an infinite blocker at one point until I could Loam back the combo and push through.

Going to a tournament tomorrow in Seattle. If I end up playing Junk, I'll let you guys know how I did :)

-Matt

tescrin
11-07-2014, 01:43 PM
Played my Hexmage brew to a 3-1 finish last night, good enough for 3rd place. Lost to Patriot Cruise Delver because Treasure Cruise can be absurd.

Would you mind letting us know the other MUs?

I couldn't tell if any of your post was in response to mine or if it was all report; so I figured I'd reply to the bits that semi-matter to what I've been up to and comment out the stuff that didn't quite fit (given I don't run Depths.)



I'm not sure I like it enough to buy Dark Depths, but the list was fine. I think you want Crop Rotations in the deck, though. You REALLY miss not having manipulation/card draw in that deck via Sylvan or Top.

Again, i think (since I couldn't find your HexDepths list in the last few pages or recent posts) this is a quality my latest list and your HexDepths have in common. I will say, that yesterday's games against combo (2 Matches against Dredge, 4 Games(?) against reanimator, 2 Matches (or maybe 8 games) against S&T) I didn't miss Library/Top. I was happy to keep hands full of action or toss them without thinking "Top may have found me stuff." Now that my list has evolved away from Loam it's much more comfortable to lose the manipulation temporarily.



Knight was generally fine, but he was hardly ever "big" unless I was already in control. TNN did becomes an infinite blocker at one point until I could Loam back the combo and push through.
Normally this is how it goes. KotR is a finisher, but not really a beater, if that makes sense. KotR's best traits are improving anti-combo in the main and being able to do weird things like outsize Nic Fit, put someone off of threshold, or bounce/beat through Ruric Thar (among other weird things those few utility lands net you.)

Normally KotR can't shine until you get to late game where he quickly gets to an 8/8+. Normally (unless I expect him to be removed soon) I'll calculate whether the opponent is on the same clock if I do land-shinanigans. If it's the same clock I'll grow him to "huge" to get "free" utility. This has been especially effective against Burn since fetching Waste->wasting myself is a +3 for Plow and generally ensures 1 or 2-swing win.

That said, I got to play with both yesterday; and Goyf (while huge) was certainly a disappointment when I fought nothing but decks KotR was helpful against. Since it was practice I was able to swap later and do the same S&T/Dredge MUs; and the difference is reasonable. Dredge is certainly much too fast sometimes so KotR can lag behind; but at least it's something. S&T/Reanimator of course are KotR's forte, and it reinvigorated my appreciation. I definitely think that Bog/Karakas weaken your manabase enough that anything less than 4 KotR is blasphemy. If you're going to beat yourself up like that it just seems like a requirement.

Highlights of yesterday were in the reanimator MUs:
-Goyf boardstalling Elesh Norn and Jin Gitaxious in different games :p
-Keeping Cage Thalia Stuff and not drawing White mana until after Reanimator could S&T a Tyrant. Ugh. Too greedy.
-Nearly losing to reanimator with a double DRS double Lily (preboard) hand since I got a little cocky and let my defenses down T2 and ate a Jin Gitaxious while he entombed an Ashen Rider during Exhume. Sigh. I even saw it coming. Still won though.. so yay?


Thinking of swapping Thalia main again since she combines so well with all of the hand interaction. I had forgotten how much she beats up on Dredge.

EDIT: I should mention that Scullers are impressing me more and more with time. They were key in multiple games with all three decks and their "must remove" status against fair decks is beautiful. T1 discard->T2 Sculler is a great start to almost any MU that didn't start with a combo ready or triple removal (and even then, at least you can mess up their sequencing.)

Some tricks include taking Discard with Sculler since discard becomes dead in the mid-late game.

Goblin Cabdriver
11-07-2014, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the sideboard tips above, gents… A junk list just placed in Japan, with mire's guile and spirit of the labyrinth main. Also 2 karakas main… Looks interesting.

With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?

iamajellydonut
11-07-2014, 02:44 PM
With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?

In the sideboard? Good as he's ever been. But the fact remains that he's fucking terrible in multiples.

tescrin
11-07-2014, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the sideboard tips above, gents… A junk list just placed in Japan, with mire's guile and spirit of the labyrinth main. Also 2 karakas main… Looks interesting.
I forgot about Guile. Maybe I'll nab some as a way to free up the 2-drop slot without having to invest extra mana. I'd max it at 2 though for sure. I like that it's a cross between some of the advantages of top (1-drop, helps Bob) and some of the advantages of Library (free looking.)



With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?
Grunt seems fine; but he's a bit slow for Dredge IMO so has to be supplemented. Same goes for Reanimator. If you're already doing good, he'll lock the board down while providing beats. He's pretty reasonable against Goyf (on paper, never tried it) but since we're not MonoW, Goyf is also good against Goyf :p. He's also pretty much "max 2-of" as Jelly implies.

I'll say he seems very Tailored against the UR Delver deck, simply because they not only want to fill their grave, but have trouble killing him. If he sticks even one turn he pushes out Cruise by about a turn, and if he survives 2 they may never cruise. He's pretty alright with Discard/Lily and I could see him in the main; so long as you treat him like discard and realize you sometimes just have to +1 him away. (D&T come to mind.)

I'd test 1-2 in the main against the MUs where he should shine (UR Delver, Dredge, Jund?) and against MUs where he should be noticably mediocre/bad (D&T, DRS decks, Miracles.) I'd point out his obvious dis-synergy with your own DRS, but it's probably pretty workable.


I should say that I'm trying to get a lot of testing in the next few weeks since there are a pair of NW SCGs coming up.

sdematt
11-13-2014, 01:50 AM
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/dd/abzan-eternal-festival-2014-11-12


Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creature (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (6)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Instant (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifact (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Mirri's Guile

Land (23)
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Karakas
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress

-Matt

Megadeus
11-13-2014, 02:09 AM
Seems pretty close to my current dead guy list... Myonly question, in this three color deck, why 2 Karakas? Am I missing something? Like it doesn't seem very well positioned in the current meta. It's not bad, but as a 2 of in a 3 color deck it seems awkward.

sdematt
11-13-2014, 02:11 AM
I thought the same thing.

-Matt

ironclad8690
11-13-2014, 02:54 AM
Maybe he predicted Reanimator/Sneak making a comeback in response to URweaktocombodraw3.dec. I remember when Reanimator was huge many Maverick decks packed 1 main 1 sideboard, but that is certainly an interesting and ambitious choice in a deck with Lili.

Megadeus
11-13-2014, 02:58 AM
Maybe he predicted Reanimator/Sneak making a comeback in response to URweaktocombodraw3.dec. I remember when Reanimator was huge many Maverick decks packed 1 main 1 sideboard, but that is certainly an interesting and ambitious choice in a deck with Lili.

and decay. And 3 basics plus 4 wasteland.

Valtrix
11-13-2014, 03:02 AM
Might there be any room for a ramp-focused Junk deck? I've been running a 12 mana dork into 3-4cc creatures deck in modern and it's been doing surprisingly well. This is not really an approach I have seen in any format really, but it's been a lot of fun and all the mana really feels like you can do so many things so quickly. I'm thinking something along the lines of:

//18 Lands
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs

//12 Mana ramp
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch

//12 Disruption
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

//12 Strong threats
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Siege Rhino

//6 Utility
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage

This fits very closely my modern version of this deck (18 land/12 mana ramp/12 hard to deal with threats + 18 utility/disruption), so I can say in terms of this style of deck running properly, it does work pretty well. This specific list is untested but more to illustrate the concept of relying on a bunch of mana creatures to accelerate out an aggressive gameplan, rather than taking a more controlly route slower route. I'm interested in knowing if anybody has approached this deck from this angle or not.

The deck doesn't look it, but it can actually play out extremely fast. For example, pilgrim -> loxodon smiter -> attack 4 + seige rhino (7) -> attack 8 (15) on turn 4 already. Certainly not fast for legacy by any means, but multiple X/4s are hard for a lot of decks to deal with. (This is one of the reasons why Entreat is so powerful in miracles.) Plus, with 12 ramp spells choke out of the board becomes so much more powerful.

Anyway, this type of deck might not be viable in a competitive scene (would certainly need to be tuned more to handle combo), but I've been pleasantly surprised with the consistency of decks like this in implementing their simple game plan. Plus, they're a blast to play (In my opinion.)

T-101
11-13-2014, 11:06 AM
I think that double Karakas is to have some hope against a Show and Tell'd/Reanimated monster, especially Norn. When the Delver deck is running 12 X/2s, and light countermagic, Elesh Norn is THE card to have on the battlefield. The incidental hate on decks like this probably pushed him towards that 2nd Karakas.

I'd be all about trying that Japanese list on a normal weekend. Bobs, Goyfs, Lilianas, some hateful Spirit of the Lab action, and even an Elspeth. I just feel like I'd screw up/forget Mirri's Guile or make some land sequences that punish me over 12 rounds being that I haven't played the list.

In the last 2 weeks, I tried playing some Miracles, which I used to play a fair amount. I found myself making far too many Top errors, and not playing to my outs enough that I decided to come back to The Rock for the GP. My brain is just so much more used to making lines with Knight, GSZ, and setting up lands with The Rock than it is to spinning Top and trying to close out with Jace, Clique, and Angels. I suppose it's pretty much Maverick at this point (playing Thalia, not playing discard main), but I'm still gonna write The Rock in the deck name field, even if they're just gonna call it "Abzan Midrange."

maharis
11-13-2014, 11:14 AM
I was super excited at first but it turns out that third place deck came in a top 8 with 0 copies of Treasure Cruise. There are lots of Digs, though, and 2 traditional Canadian Thresh decks with Mongoose (no Mandrills, Matt, sorry!)

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8439&f=LE

Guess Japan isn't as big on UR delver and megaburn as North America?

Stuuch
11-13-2014, 12:27 PM
There was 330 players in that tournament according to mtg pulse decklists. There had to be of U/R delver played. It just did´t made to top 8. This proves that cruise doesn´t always win. I will test that list in weeks to come. Only cards im not sure in that list are Elspeth and Krosan Grip. They are good against Miracles but not any other Tier 1 deck ATM. List is also a bit weak against combo.

tescrin
11-13-2014, 01:19 PM
Might there be any room for a ramp-focused Junk deck? I've been running a 12 mana dork into 3-4cc creatures deck in modern and it's been doing surprisingly well. This is not really an approach I have seen in any format really, but it's been a lot of fun and all the mana really feels like you can do so many things so quickly.

This fits very closely my modern version of this deck (18 land/12 mana ramp/12 hard to deal with threats + 18 utility/disruption)

Have you tried it in legacy? I feel like you're going to get wasted out *a lot.* Either way, one sculler or Thalia should be a Gaddock Teeg (You have 4 GSZ.)

I notice you don't have a single Kill spell. This disturbs me deeply. Even maverick runs 4 Plow.
Your threats can't beat Goyfs reliably and with no removal, no Mother of Runes, no equips, you can't reliably attack through opponent's board positions.

danpo
11-14-2014, 04:57 AM
Question:

I'm noticing both the Japanese list referenced above and also this one [ T8/78 http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/100872 ] play four copies of Dark Confidant, but only three of Stoneforge Mystic, while trying to cheat out Batterskull. It seems to me you'd want to do the reverse: SFM nets you a card as soon as it lands, whereas Bob gives the opponent a chance to untap first. Also, SFM isn't as soft against Forked Bolt, which seems increasingly popular lately, and post-board is also more resilient to Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm/Electrickery.
Thoughts?

...

Unrelatedly, if we're assuming paying life for things is bad in DelverBurn.meta , and Mirri's Guile lets you stack the top of your library before you reveal to Bob, unlike Sylvan Library, and also being cheaper has the potential to come down a turn earlier and/or Daze-proof, might the card with the embarrassing feline art actually be better?

tescrin
11-14-2014, 12:11 PM
I'll be trying Guile out this week at my local. Haven't been able to get any practice with it yet.

I like 4 Bob; as he's a removal magnet. 3 SFM feels greedy with BSK, but they're winning tournies.. so I don't know..

T-101
11-15-2014, 07:52 PM
Currently 5/1 after round 6. Running the same list as I did in the trial, except -1 Sigarda -1 Choke, +1 Needle +1 Zealous in the board.

R1&2: Byes
R3: Win 2/0 against stock U/R Delver.
R4: Lose 2/1 against brewed U/R Delver.
R5: Win 2/0 against Storm w/ Cruise. Marit Lage ate him :)
R6: Win 2/1 against stock U/R Delver. Damn close games. Winning the die roll OP.

I'll try to post more after Day 1 is over. Despite me writing "The Rock" on my deck list, the list was posted as fucking Abzan. Grrrrrr. I'll have to take out my frustration on some more Pyromancers.

R7: Lost 2/0 to Death and Taxes, epic misplay game 1.
R8: Lost 2/1 to Merfolk. Mull to 5 game 1, Drew both pieces of Marit Lage back to back to kill him the turn before he killed me in game 2, and game 3 I mull to 6, dont get black mana and DRS gets Needled.

At 5/3 I dropped.

In the last two rounds I drew a total of 1 Swords to Plowshares, and 1 Abrupt Decay.

The event was super sweet, and I'm glad I went. This was definitely the best Legacy GP Ive been to. Knight has been good to me, but I'm eager to sleeve up those Goyfs, Bobs, and Spirits of the Lab. That japanese list just looks too awesome.

Claymore
11-18-2014, 12:30 PM
I will say that the tech of Forest-Crop rotation- Ancient Tomb, Chalice on 1 is pretty sweet, something I haven't realized before.

maharis
11-18-2014, 02:25 PM
apple, I really like the idea. I don't think it's out of place here, but is maybe closer to the Sylvan Plug list that Lejay posted and has been discussed over in New & Developmental. You might get better input...

On the deck itself... Loam seems like it should be somewhere. Also some sort of 2G threat/thing to do on turn 2 for when you have that opener that's like Ancient Tomb, Forest, Bojuka Bog, Dryad Arbor, Knight, Elderscale Wurm, Eternal Witness. I guess you can GSZ for Pridemage/Ranger but it doesn't always do anything...

Just looking at everything with manacost 2G that might be interesting (some of these are very situational):

Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Brindle Boar
Call of the Herd
Choke
Daybreak Ranger
Downdraft
Fallow Earth
Fallow Wurm
Fierce Empath
Gift of the Gargantuan
Nantuko Shaman
Realms Uncharted
Reclamation Sage
Song of the Dryads
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard

At 3 CMC artifact we have:

Crucible of Worlds
Culling Scales
Damping Matrix
Forcefield
Oblivion Stone
Plague Boiler
Trinisphere

Just something to consider. Cool idea.

tescrin
11-18-2014, 02:39 PM
So I ran "7 Goyf" this weekend at my LGS to a mere 2-2, losing twice to UR Delver. The list looks like:

Mainboard:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Toxic Deluge


I did and didn't like Guile. The plan felt smooth and powerful. Below is the mild report, focusing more on the UR Losses as they somewhat surprised me. I've omitted the wins mostly.

-BUG Delver- 2-1
Lily does a lot of work. I interact with him enough to keep threats on the table reliably.

-ANT- 2-0
My hands are full of action since post side is so dense and pre-side is reasonable.

-UR Delver- 0-2
G1- Is grindy and eventually he has a Pyro. He starts cruising while I get Bob active. Bob + Guile draw me a pair of lands out of 3. I see 3 lands and GSZ. I take GSZ with Bob and fetch before drawing to get something that's not a land. I draw a land. That set of 4 lands in a row + the blind fetch->Draw land killed me.
G2- 7-cards with only a wasteland. 6-cards with only wasteland. 5-nonlands. 4-card is finally a keep with 3 lands + Goyf. Still. I obviously don't have the action to win like that.

-UR Delver- 1-2
G1- Mildly grindy but I land early goyfs and build them to a 6/7 while disrupting. He starts finding lands with Cruise->Cruise->stuff and I answer everything.
G2- Mull to 5 for lands? (6 non land, then 5 lands and a dude.) Lose handsomely to fireblast + Delver -> Vortex (IIRC)
G3- Reasonable game, but by the time I've established a secure board I get blasted + something to the face and die. I think my board was Goyf Goyf Bob DRS.

-Zombardment (Practice)- 2-0 (at least)
We answer eachothers stuff a lot, but my cards are better.


Thoughts:
-Goyf and Lily are fine against UR Delver. That said, I sided lily for Deluge of course.

-Guile is worse than Top AND Library in this deck. I was annoyed I couldn't multi-look and that I had no way to draw (as at least with Top, you can cantrip into something when you need a turn to do more stuff.)

-Arbor is probably bad in my deck, but it's the justification for going for GSZ. I'll give it some time with practice. I'm certainly looking for how I'd add the SFM package. (Right now it'd be -2 Guile, -1 Lily, -1 GSZ) making my deck look like Matt's with Scullers and a Teeg where his libraries and third equip are.

-Debating 2Chains of Meph in place of Guile. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems bad if you're using it against Forked Bolts and such. Since the delvers I have problems with run little to no Decays I think Chains is better positioned. It's still fine as a +1 to Lily I think. Besides, if you're going to bling out $400-500 worth of two cards, may as well play them.

apple713
11-18-2014, 03:57 PM
I will say that the tech of Forest-Crop rotation- Ancient Tomb, Chalice on 1 is pretty sweet, something I haven't realized before.


apple, I really like the idea. I don't think it's out of place here, but is maybe closer to the Sylvan Plug list that Lejay posted and has been discussed over in New & Developmental. You might get better input...


Just something to consider. Cool idea.

thanks guys I think that i'll just start a new thread cause its really different than the other decks. it faces very different problems. I'll try and get the new post up soon, so look for it if you want to contribute.

the new thread can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28838-Deck-Chalice-of-the-Dark-Order&p=849527#post849527)

tescrin
11-25-2014, 02:03 PM
This s pretty close to what I'd like to run this week:
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword #2
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy or Plains
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


I've been taking notes from Maverick and decided I needed a couple more mana-dudes to reliably equip mid-game and get through Delver. Birds seem good if I stick with a double-swords composition (debating between SoLaS and SoFaF.) I'm also thinking I'd like to cram in a couple more SFM.

Do you guys have any opinions where the SFMs go? I was thinking a Lily and an IoK; but I like where my combo-protection is at and I'm still a fan of Lily. Even so, I could see pushing her to the SB for an SFM. It seems weird to push out one of my last 3-drops right after adding more mana-dudes though.


I'll say I continue to be happy with Tidehollow. I played a bit of a BUG control/midrange list and D&T over the last week and he continues to be reliably obnoxious. GSZ was mediocre; usually being a mana off from what I want to be doing that turn. I experimented with Qasali's next to it and while I popped some equips; had my list just been more powerful the opposing equips would've have mattered. CA > utility in this case.

Thanks for any advice!

Mirrislegend
12-01-2014, 12:50 PM
I'm seeing a lot of Tidehollow Sculler in the most recent lists posted here. How is that working out for you? I have very consistently hated it.

iamajellydonut
12-01-2014, 12:55 PM
I'm seeing a lot of Tidehollow Sculler in the most recent lists posted here. How is that working out for you? I have very consistently hated it.

I have a love/hate relationship with the card. Discard on a body is phenomenal, and the way Tidehollow Sculler's triggers work can make for some very interesting scenarios. But on the whole it functions too much like a BW Meddling Mage, and I'm not a fan of Meddling Mage.

tescrin
12-01-2014, 01:32 PM
I tried him out again after hating him consistently for a long time. What I realized was he's "Must remove" or else he's card advantage.
Things to remember:
-He boosts goyf +2. His artifact status has been very helpful in achieving a 6/7 goyf
-He augments your 1-CMC discard well; he does not replace it. I run a 6-3 split (I got this from someone who's topped an SCG, seems legit)
-Seeing their hand is a big deal. If your opponent is loaded with removal, take the worst one so they have to use the (situational) best on him instead.
-You can take early game cards and if they get them back, it's too late to be very useful. This can be Discard, Daze, Spell Pierce before you Lily,
-He's a game staller. The idea is to use him to get to your equipped dudes.

Try running him with the full Junk package again if you want. I've been happy with him next to the trio of 2-drops. Note that his manacost is a little awkward next to decay and you should not run him next to KotR without significant manafixing, no basics, or some other concession. Stifle-Delvers were a pain in that config.

His main issue is that he takes up deck slots that aren't the core of the deck, but are really really nice to have, which I haven't been able to reconcile yet. Currently I have no library manipulation and he's an easy swap to go back to an SDT/Library version.



Weekend report: (2-1-1, 2-2 officially.)
I beat UR Delver (2-0) and S&T (2-0) losing to storm (0-2) and drawing with Merfolk (1-1-1). Notes:
-UR Delver. Close game because he bolts me a bunch to try and get me. I have the decay ready for Taylor and stabilize at 4 with Jitte Sculler SFM against Token, Pyro, unflipped Delver. his dudes die real bad. G2 was a free win off of wasteland. (He probed, saw wasteland, Brainstormed, and lost.)
-S&T. He has double S&T G1 so gets a grisel despite my thoughtseize. Still, I fill the board with dudes and swarm through the Emmy on defense (2 bob, 2 drs, goyf, SFM.) G2 he mulls a bit, gets hit by 2-3 discard followed by Lily.
-Merfolk. Nice guy but spammed Misdirection and back to basics in the main. This meant G1 I plowed my own dude and got half-locked. G2 I crush him utterly. G3 I mull to 5 and was probably going to lose, I concede T5 in turns since he was paired down and was win-and-in
-Storm I mull to 5 twice looking for interaction and get mediocre hand + bad draws. C'est la vie

maharis
12-01-2014, 01:49 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with the card. Discard on a body is phenomenal, and the way Tidehollow Sculler's triggers work can make for some very interesting scenarios. But on the whole it functions too much like a BW Meddling Mage, and I'm not a fan of Meddling Mage.

This is a great way to put it. Like Meddling Mage, it's great against combo decks, but we have cards that are better against combo decks. In fair matchups, he's miserable. Too easily outclassed in combat and doesn't hit the top of the deck for removal.

tescrin
12-01-2014, 04:22 PM
This is a great way to put it. Like Meddling Mage, it's great against combo decks, but we have cards that are better against combo decks. In fair matchups, he's miserable. Too easily outclassed in combat and doesn't hit the top of the deck for removal.

I really think you need more practice with the card. IME, Any deck with less than 8 removal has seemed to have big problems with Sculler. I've been able to consistently gain card advantage against fair decks; including BUG Delver, D&T, UR Delver.

In my own experience sitting across from the card against a local DGA opponent; the card is very obnoxious to have to kill unless you have a Lily ready to go where Sculler is their new-found board position; but that's true of basically all creatures and in this case Sculler can take her from your hand.

Madmankevinx
12-01-2014, 04:51 PM
ack! removed for being in the wrong thread.

sdematt
12-10-2014, 07:39 PM
Since this deck has only been doing okay lately, I've been doing some playing of other decks and I've been reading and thinking.

The most popular colours right now are Blue and Red, and like people have been saying, being in Black doesn't give you much. Right now, Liliana isn't even that great, nor is Hymn or Dark Confidant. The real question is, if we keep playing the same 60 of cards that aren't good in the metagame, are we going to put up results? The answer is likely yes if your local meta is soft, or you're a good player. However, having played Junk Fit more than a few times online, the colours are viable. I think the cards we're playing right now are just on the cusp and maybe it's worth testing. And not whether or not we should play 2 Sylvans or 3.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingering Souls
2 Siege Rhino

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Sylvan Library
2 Phyrexian Arena

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

What in the hell am I doing? I'll explain.

Even though Deathrite is only okay, I still want to keep this guy for obvious reasons. We need Turn 1 interaction.

Goyf, even though he doesn't get past tokens, is still very good. He's a play I want most of the time against UR because a 4/5 usually blocks Swiftspear without worry.

Stoneforge is again, very strong. Nothing to talk about here.

I've upped the Lingering Souls count. It gives us a lot of action especially against Miracles, and it allows us to go control against the other midrange decks, and it gums down the Delver deck. Fork Bolt sucks, but whatever.

Siege Rhino is a card that I said was perhaps too overcosted for Legacy, and now I'm turning around and playing 4 in Nic Fit. This deck isn't Nic Fit, but I'm surviving until Turn 4 very often. He's essentially an overcosted Goyf, but he does swing life nicely, blocks Batterskull, and tramples through tokens. UR actually cannot beat this guy. I like him because he has a ton of play, and sometimes draining for 3 is a kill in the making, especially dropping him post combat. He's a post-combat Bolt they don't see coming.

If we're stretching the game to go longer, we need manipulation and draw. What people need to realize is that Top is a very good card. However, you want to use every mana every turn. You don't have time in the early game to spin your wheel (or Top) and hope for the best. You don't have a Miracle card to get you out of a situation. However, do realize every card you have is better than the Delver decks. They have to throw value away, literally into the bin, to get value. They have to chuck away Brainstorms, Ponders, and whatnot to even attack with anything relevant or create some tokens. We have cards, not air. Because I want to try cutting Confidant, we need an alternate card draw engine. 4 Sylvan is too much since Decay is decreasing in format penetrance and multiples don't do much. Enter Phyrexian Arena. Back before SCG and even Dark Confidant, I used to play this card and it was stellar. In fact, it still is stellar. There are decks where T3 this will be better than Liliana, and it still can come down on turn 2. Plus, since our average CMC is increasing (as well as the creatures are larger), we would be losing more like to Dark Confidant (or for that matter, the enchantment version...). Thus, I want to try it out. 1 life for 1 card is quite good, and you still have Sylvan like we did before.

Why not 3 arena? I'm trying it out. Numbers are subject to change; you'll also notice total discard went back up to 6 with 3 Therapy since you're running 3 Souls now. If that isn't required, then we'll see.

As for the board, Meddling Mage is back out. There's not enough combo in the metagame and naming Cruise isn't enough. Carpet is much, much better against the Delver strategies. Absolute Law is great because it means they essentially can't bolt out Goyfs, you get to block swiftspears all day, swing past them, etc. Is it good enough? Unknown. Maybe it'll turn into Timely, maybe it'll turn into Thrun. It's there to consider.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Disagree? Agree?

EDIT: Also, holy fuck the primer is 4 years old. I'll update it on my exam break.

-Matt

tescrin
12-11-2014, 01:31 PM
EDIT: Also, holy fuck the primer is 4 years old. I'll update it on my exam break.
It's funny looking back how much information was incorrect or just sounds weird. (Discussion on Knight, mentions of CA where it isn't, things like that.) You were big on KotR and Top, but less so now. Still, rockin' job past-matt.

I've thought about typing a few ideas in response; the basic one is that I think Maverick is looking more Junky now a days (DRS, Decay) and that the plan that we have enough "must-kills" to land a board presence is unfortunately misguided now. My current config:
4 DRS
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Sculler
4 Bob
+ spells (2-4 Lily, depending how I'm feeling.)

Even with that; I was 1-for-1'd into oblivion by a Patriot Snapcaster build. It's great for decks with lower removal counts, but I think had Mom been in the deck; I could've gained an edge. My build will likely become more mavericky. I've been off of souls for awhile, so maybe I should give them a try instead of Mom again, but Mom has that nice DRS feeling of "Answer or have problems" and fits the theme of the deck. Souls, while great, goes against the theme and offers up prime removal targets. We'll see..

I think the "Junk" version of Maverick will end up being Goyf vs. KotR and GSZ vs. Bob or some such, with Discard taking the spot of GSZ targets.

Still, I'm brewing with Thopter Foundry in BUG and Esper right now; "I've had it with these mother-fuckin' Miracles on this mother-fuckin' plane."

EDIT: Here, I've been contemplating Bob as well, mostly because his value takes a turn to come around and the amount of 1-CMC removal, Snapcasters, and Burn cards running around are making it difficult.

maharis
12-11-2014, 02:25 PM
I really like this build, Matt. I was wondering where this deck would end up after I had been seeing and playing against Modern Junk decks with no Bobs, 4 Rhinos, and 4 Oozes. Liliana is still a little more functional in Modern than Legacy, but I love Phyrexian Arena as a replacement for her and Bob here. Unfortunately Treasure Cruise has pushed Dark Confidant out of the game in every relevant format. I don't want TC to be banned, but Bob needs some help soon. Anyway, Arena is very elegant — difficult to kill, can come down on turn 2 with a DRS/Arbor, and left unchecked can win the game. Like you point out, our cards are probably actually better than the average U tempo or midrange deck. They excel at finding answers, though, and we have to keep up.

Which takes us to Siege Rhino. I understand why we all thought 4 mana (specifically 1WBG, which isn't exactly easy to cast) was too much for Legacy. But Rhino really is the full package. Does something when it comes into play, requires an immediate, narrow answer (there really aren't many cards that can kill it in Magic, let alone playable in Legacy), and is a fast, evasive clock. The thing I love the most about it here is that even if it's hit with an STP, you've gained 7 life off the thing... which is an extra two cards off Sylvan Library. Green Sun's Zenith for it is nasty. Getting a sword on it is ridiculous. The best part is that's it's a multi-format all-star, up to a 4-of in the two biggest constructed formats and relevant here... and it's FALLING in price! $15 or less shipped for a set is crazy, thank you fetchlands and limited players.

I'm not sure about SoFaF mainboard... I guess if you have a lot of Elves and other BGx decks in your meta it's good. I feel like if you're not playing Batterskull (which is defensible), SoLaS might be better since it protects against STP and Batterskull... SoWaP also guards against STP while swinging past Elemental tokens and quickening your clock against people holding countermagic or extra cantrips/lands post-Cruise. The last couple times I've had a SoFaF against BGx they just decay it and move on anyway... Dryad Arbor vigilance is fun but tough to achieve when they have access to Wasteland and Decay. It puts a real beating on Elves though, I almost like it more than Jitte against that deck. You could also play another GSZ or extra disruption in that slot.

Count me in the camp that Absolute Law isn't necessary in the board... Let them bolt out your Goyfs, you just have more threats. Souls + Equipment fly over Elemental tokens anyway. That slot seems like it would be better served as the SoFaF, some sort of grave hate card for combo decks (Cage or a Spellbomb/Crypt effect), another piece of combo hate like Canonist, or a Council's Judgment for the odd S&T deck or TNN.

Anyway, really cool build, I hope it starts to deliver some results. Also, good luck on your exams!

Mr. Safety
12-14-2014, 08:37 PM
It's funny looking back how much information was incorrect or just sounds weird. (Discussion on Knight, mentions of CA where it isn't, things like that.) You were big on KotR and Top, but less so now. Still, rockin' job past-matt.

I've thought about typing a few ideas in response; the basic one is that I think Maverick is looking more Junky now a days (DRS, Decay) and that the plan that we have enough "must-kills" to land a board presence is unfortunately misguided now. My current config:
4 DRS
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Sculler
4 Bob
+ spells (2-4 Lily, depending how I'm feeling.)

Even with that; I was 1-for-1'd into oblivion by a Patriot Snapcaster build. It's great for decks with lower removal counts, but I think had Mom been in the deck; I could've gained an edge. My build will likely become more mavericky. I've been off of souls for awhile, so maybe I should give them a try instead of Mom again, but Mom has that nice DRS feeling of "Answer or have problems" and fits the theme of the deck. Souls, while great, goes against the theme and offers up prime removal targets. We'll see..

I think the "Junk" version of Maverick will end up being Goyf vs. KotR and GSZ vs. Bob or some such, with Discard taking the spot of GSZ targets.

Still, I'm brewing with Thopter Foundry in BUG and Esper right now; "I've had it with these mother-fuckin' Miracles on this mother-fuckin' plane."

EDIT: Here, I've been contemplating Bob as well, mostly because his value takes a turn to come around and the amount of 1-CMC removal, Snapcasters, and Burn cards running around are making it difficult.

Your core is the same as mine, only I opt for 2 scullers rather than 3. I've played up to 4 and as little as 2.

The problem, if it is indeed a problem, is the unholy clog at 2 mana. If I add abrupt decay and library it just gets worse. I'm not saying its wrong, just wonky sometimes.

I like Knight as a two-of, because I have an unnatural affinity for Volrath's Stronghold and Cabal Pit. VS helps grind out long games, and supplemented by the souls army (three copies) makes for a good amount of inevitability. Pit kills a lot of threats right now.

The numbers that constantly change in my list are sculler, knight, and one-mana discard.

I'm not sure I can let go of Bob and liliana yet. They are still just amazingly powerful cards.

maharis
12-26-2014, 07:08 PM
I've been brewing with Courser of Kruphix a bit as a Bob replacement. Very good with library manipulation, and essentially a GSZ-able Phyrexian Arena. I also have been liking a 2 SDT 2 Sylvan split because they're not as bad together in your opener as one is in multiples. If you open with SDT and Library, you drop Top, then when you can land Library, you do that, flip your Top and shuffle it away.

My current build:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Council's Judgement
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scrubland

This is because I only have one Courser. It's overperformed so much though that I'm considering dropping the Knight plan and adding more Coursers, Siege Rhinos, and maybe a Doran, plus more GSZ. Doran would synergize with every creature in the deck. The other option is to play Tombstalker, because Courser will help me fill my GY with fetchlands.

sdematt
12-26-2014, 09:59 PM
Doran and Siege Rhino sounds like a wet dream to me.

-Matt

pettdan
12-27-2014, 01:58 PM
I found this comparison good fuel for thought, perhaps you will too. I'm brewing with a Nic Fit Build. It's quite similar.

Differences in the core of the deck:
-1 deathrite, -1 Thoughtseize; +2 Veteran Explorer
-2 Stoneforge Mystic; +2 GSZ
-3 thoughtseize; +3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Wasteland; +1 Gaea's Cradle
And a few other rearrangements of the land configuration..

And what I consider choices due to personal preferences, strategic approach and/or meta based decisions:
-2 StP; +2 Liliana
-1 SoF&I; +1 Batterskull
-2 KotR; +2 Siege Rhino
-1 Judgment; +1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 SDT; +1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Wasteland; +1 Vault of the Archangel
61st card: Sigarda (or a land actually)

I'm testing sb wasteland + loam.

The main reason for such a change (I'm trying to motivate it for myself, too) is the increased consistency and flexibility of the GSZ package: offering extra mana development t1-2 (t1 arbor, t2+ deathrite/explorer), extra gravehate (ooze/shaman), extra combo hate (teeg, possibly kotr+karakas/bojuka/waste), extra lifegain (rhino/ooze/courser etc), extra removal (Qasali), extra beater (Sigarda/Rhino), extra card advantage engine (Courser).

Wasteland seems less relevant in a cruise meta so putting wastelands in the sideboard could be good.

I'm mostly curious on you success with knight. Will you keep one? Which lands will you keep in that case for use with knight?

Bobmans
12-28-2014, 04:40 AM
I've been brewing with Courser of Kruphix a bit as a Bob replacement..... It's overperformed so much....

Courser of Kruphix is really underplayed. Since i am running that card i am not playing without. I always run 3-4 Sensei's Divining Top in my lists which makes it even better. With 4 thoughness it is a solid blocker and doesnt die to bolt. Also gaining life is very relevant with all the fast Burn and UR decks.

Secretly.A.Bee
01-08-2015, 11:50 PM
I put together a Junkblade list yesterday for my gf to play, and so far the all-star against blue delve has been a single Dryad Militant. GSZ for it when I need to.

Bobmans
01-09-2015, 12:36 AM
I put together a Junkblade list yesterday for my gf to play, and so far the all-star against blue delve has been a single Dryad Militant. GSZ for it when I need to.
Isn't the Militant bolted down on sight?

Secretly.A.Bee
01-09-2015, 01:36 AM
Often, but what ya gonna do?

Bobmans
01-09-2015, 02:54 AM
Often, but what ya gonna do?
The follow up question then would be, how much of its ability has some actual effect on the boardstate?

Just trying to figur out if it is actually going to put up some work or that it will be lost effort. Best way to find out is to just put it in my board anyway i guess.

sdematt
01-09-2015, 03:22 AM
I feel like if you're going to start to play bullets, isn't Safekeeper real swell? I almost lost to that little bugger last night when he was playing Maverick.

Tracker is also an oldy, but a goody.

I'm still not on a 60/61 that I feel excellent about, I'm still testing. I might be trying out Darkblast again, but maybe not. We'll see :)

-Matt

Richard Cheese
01-09-2015, 11:33 AM
So I've been playing around with BGW again, but it's somewhere between Maverick and a more traditional Junk/Rock list. Mostly creatures, Thalia main, 4x GSZ, but no Moms. Oh, and 4x Siege Rhino, because that guy is just fucking bonkers.

Anyway, is anyone else going down the same path? It feels like it eliminates my least favorite things from both archetypes. Bad topdecks in junk, weakness to sweepers in Maverick. If anyone's interested I can post the list.

Bobmans
01-09-2015, 12:03 PM
So I've been playing around with BGW again, but it's somewhere between Maverick and a more traditional Junk/Rock list. Mostly creatures, Thalia main, 4x GSZ, but no Moms. Oh, and 4x Siege Rhino, because that guy is just fucking bonkers.

Anyway, is anyone else going down the same path? It feels like it eliminates my least favorite things from both archetypes. Bad topdecks in junk, weakness to sweepers in Maverick. If anyone's interested I can post the list.

Oh sweet.. With Thalia main i assume you run 4 Wasteland (offcourse) and maybe 1/2 LotL?

tescrin
01-09-2015, 02:00 PM
I feel like GSZ becomes somewhat necessary if you're running Rhinos; but GSZ->Arbor feels dangerous if we're going to bring up the -1/-1 and 1-damage cards that are around.

@Matt
yeah, my experience with darkblast was:
Vs D&T - didn't draw it (or it didn't matter anymore)
Vs Others - Dead card

I only had the four MUs, but a 2-of felt quite wrong and a 1-of that I'm not always happy to see also feels wrong. It just feels like a strong sideboard or something. I kind of feel that way about when I test Pontiff (where maybe a GCharm would be better.)

@Richard
It's why I'm off junk right now. I was getting ready to add Moms where my Lily's were and realized that I was just walking into the meta-problem of X/1s. It's not the answer you want to hear, I'm sure. I'd attempt to keep the number of X/1s on the field to 1 at any given time if they're on Red or Black and I'd look to things that maximize your CA potential.

Another idea would be to go the old Goyf + Tombstalker + Scooze kinda route, where you just have lots of huge guys and your opponents creatures/removal isn't good enough. If doing that, I'd consider Enchantment or Artifacts (bonus if they're creatures) to support the team by making goyf big. My go to of late has been Sculler since he's combo-support and must kill, but you could find others (such as SotL.) Running both SotL *and* Sculler sound ridiculously cool next to Goyf while having reasonable disruption.

Richard Cheese
01-09-2015, 04:08 PM
@Richard
It's why I'm off junk right now. I was getting ready to add Moms where my Lily's were and realized that I was just walking into the meta-problem of X/1s. It's not the answer you want to hear, I'm sure. I'd attempt to keep the number of X/1s on the field to 1 at any given time if they're on Red or Black and I'd look to things that maximize your CA potential.

Another idea would be to go the old Goyf + Tombstalker + Scooze kinda route, where you just have lots of huge guys and your opponents creatures/removal isn't good enough. If doing that, I'd consider Enchantment or Artifacts (bonus if they're creatures) to support the team by making goyf big. My go to of late has been Sculler since he's combo-support and must kill, but you could find others (such as SotL.) Running both SotL *and* Sculler sound ridiculously cool next to Goyf while having reasonable disruption.

Yeah I've never liked top-decking moms or discard late-game, so I just said to hell with both, and it feels pretty alright. My creature package is basically:

Goyf
KotR
Thalia
Ooze
Rhino
DRS
Teeg

I think a singleton Thrun and Pridemage in there? No discard, just Decay, StP, GSZ, and Library for spells. Small toolbox for KotR, does have Depths/Stage right now but I'm debating whether that's necessary or wise with the cost on Rhino. The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing it plays more like Big Zoo than anything. Still, Rhino must be perfect for this deck because Rhino = Rocksteady = The Rock.

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/692/233957-rocksteady.jpg

maharis
01-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Haven't had a ton of time to test recently but I'm really liking Courser. With Library, SDT, GSZ, Stoneforge, SoFI there's actually a good amount of card selection available to this deck and I think it can stand up to the blue decks.

I am basically playing the same list I posted above but with 2 Courser, 2 Siege Rhino, and a Doran in place of the Knights and Ooze, and swapped the numbers on GSZ and Souls. I haven't even changed the land base yet even though I took the Knights out because the only real stinker is Bojuka Bog and still it's a nice thing to have sometimes.

The only thing I wish I had access to is a planeswalker. I suppose I could run a Lili over Council's Judgement, but CJ is so much better at nailing TNN.

I also might bite the bullet and buy a Goyf to play over Doran. Doran can be a blowout, but I find myself really wanting a 2cc GSZ target and Goyf is just the best. I want something unboltable in that slot.

maharis
01-11-2015, 03:56 PM
Anyone else see that Gerard Fabiano gave Junk a passing thought this week?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30079_Legacy-Abzan-For-SCG-Philadelphia.html

It's nice to see the deck get some run but I don't like his build... I don't understand how he could plan to side out Bob in the two most likely matchups he would face and not figure out that he should probably play something else. He's got Sylvan Library main in his BUG deck...

Mr. Safety
01-11-2015, 07:21 PM
I saw his article, too. I like Sword of Fire and Ice maindeck but I don't like only 4 discard spells. I wouldn't play less than 5-6, I'm currently at six. AND I play 3 copies of Tidehollow Sculler. I am only on 3 copies of Confidant, which is still good against non delver matchups but weak in general. I play a Library in the 4th slot.

Here is what I'm currently testing:

4x deathrite
4x goyf
3x bob
3x mystic
3x sculler

4x stp
4x decay
4x thoughseize
2x IoK
3x Liliana
1x jitte
1x bskull
1x sofi
1x library

22 lands (7 fetches, 5 duals, 3 waste, one urborg, one treetop, and 5 basics)

sdematt
01-11-2015, 09:43 PM
Anyone else see that Gerard Fabiano gave Junk a passing thought this week?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30079_Legacy-Abzan-For-SCG-Philadelphia.html

It's nice to see the deck get some run but I don't like his build... I don't understand how he could plan to side out Bob in the two most likely matchups he would face and not figure out that he should probably play something else. He's got Sylvan Library main in his BUG deck...

Sylvan is better than Chains. Playing a card that advances your board state is better than trying to slow them down, at least in the Delver matchups. Maybe I'm wrong. But, our lists look decently similar.

I might have a working list to post tomorrow/tonight. We'll see.

-Matt

tescrin
01-12-2015, 11:28 AM
I think you're kinda wrong. Chains against delver (if you land it..) obliterates half of the non-land portion of the deck. Maybe more like a third usually, but having played on the Delver side of things, even SotL is troublesome if you're not overloaded with removal.

Sylvan, however, can't do anything but fix your draws. This is fine for games that have time for that little bit of sculpting to have incremental CQ value, but I imagine the games where you land Chains it's a much bigger issue for them. You can't pay life into Sylvan safely unless you're ahead anyway (for Delver MUs.)

That said, Sylvan works in like 90% of games and Chains works in more like.. 70%, or less if you include the games where they have action instead of cantrips, or w/e. Sylvan always does it's work; which is why I think it's a better/easier to use card. Chains is super conditional on if they already "have it" and a near insta-gib if they have a mediocre hand to begin with. So maybe a 50-50 insta-gib 70% of the time is good enough (at large tournaments)?



It's worth remembering that SDT is conditional Card Disadvantage and Sylvan is usually Card Disadvantage; something that the brainstorm crowd won't note when bringing up our 2-mana fixers. This is important because while Dark Confidant is a consistency engine, he's typically a 1-for-1, an X-for-1, or wins the game (since he's a win con.)

sdematt
01-12-2015, 04:21 PM
Here's what ill be trying this week:

4 deathrite
3 goyf
4 stoneforge
3 siege rhino
1 scavenging ooze
1 ulvenwald tracker

3 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy
3 stp
4 decay
3 sylvan library
1 phyrexian arena/ courser
1 green suns zenith
1 top/gsz #2
2 lingering souls
1 solas
1 sofi
1 jitte

23 lands with arbor

2 gaddock teeg
2 grip
2 zealous persecution
2 EE
3 carpet of flowers
2 pithing needle
2 open

sdematt
01-15-2015, 06:32 PM
Any progress from anyone else?

-Matt

maharis
01-16-2015, 07:45 AM
I've actually been crushing it in the new dad department so I'm finally going to be able to test my deck Monday. This is the build I'm at now:


3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

2x Courser of Kruphix
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Siege Rhino
4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares

1x Cabal Therapy
1x Council's Judgment
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize

1x Batterskull
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Bitterblossom
2x Sylvan Library

1x Bow of Nylea
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Zealous Persecution

I have found in informal testing that I tend to have problems with other SFM decks, so I'm thinking Pridemage as my 2CC GSZ target. I still am intrigued by running a single Goyf there just to help get a bolt-proof beatstick online.

I switched to BB from Souls for sort of the same reason. I found that I just wanted more things to do turn 2. I gain a decent amount of life from DRS, Courser, Jitte, Rhino and Batterskull and just being able to pump out bodies to carry equipment or chump block is super helpful. It's a little nerve-racking, but it's just a test.

Batterskull came in over the second sword because I was hitting so many land drops off Courser that hardcasting/bouncing isn't out of the question. Also, SoLaS was my choice, but with only 14 creatures I didn't get a ton of value off it. I have thought about Sword of War and Peace as a way to dodge Bolt, Pyromancer tokens, and STP while speeding my clock and gaining myself some life.

Timely Reinforcements might be unnecessary. It probably should be something else to hit Show & Tell decks.

Is 3 GSZ/10 targets overkill? I really want to be able to ramp turn 1, so I want to hit Arbor or DRS, and 7 ways to do that seems key. But I guess it is theoretically possible to have no targets for it or not anything I want to get (like extra DRSes or Pridemage against Punishing Fire.) But at that point haven't I lost? I put Bow of Nylea in the sideboard to help against decks with lots of removal so I can stay alive and stack the bottom of my library for GSZ. It also kills Delver.

tescrin
01-16-2015, 11:53 AM
I envy your Blossom's. I hope they reprint them as I don't feel they're worth $35 or w/e; but to run them next to Goyf sounds too good. Goyf + Blossom + SFM + Sculler + Lily; A man can dream for that 8/9 goyf.

EDIT: @Matt
Not really. I only get a bit of testing and my next test will likely be a Jund brew that's more on the burn side of things than the controlling. I'm destiny EotGR next Goyf again which sounds fun and like it could be enough to have tolerable combo MUs.

Richard Cheese
01-19-2015, 11:57 AM
Any progress from anyone else?

-Matt

We had our first Legacy FNM this weekend and I took my Rocksteady list, went 3-2. Beat U/R Delver, Miracles, and D&T. Lost to burn because of infinite misplays and a mull to 4, then 2-1 to Patriot, just couldn't find a Zealous in time. Overall I was pretty happy with it, and Siege Rhino was a boss in every game. I've got a few changes to make, and might try to get SFM in there somehow, but I'm not sure yet. We'll see where the format goes with the banlist update.

Almost forgot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJz3syNbtE

Secretly.A.Bee
01-19-2015, 12:22 PM
Any progress from anyone else?

-Matt
Yes, I went ahead and put the ban - order in on Treasure Cruise, so now we can go back to not warping the deck to fit a particular meta.

J/K, but I'm glad it's over.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

sdematt
01-19-2015, 01:17 PM
So is Siege Rhino now bunk? :p

tescrin
01-19-2015, 01:34 PM
Not sure if this means "Bob is good again" but I'll be excited to try some more "Junk." I'd expect manabases to get a little greedier again as we should see RUG Delver and BUG Delver come back with a reckoning (which is good.) Be ready for miracles!

Richard Cheese
01-19-2015, 02:09 PM
So is Siege Rhino now bunk? :p

Could be, depends where the meta goes. I think it's just going to go back to BUG/RUG/Miracles on top, with Miracles getting the biggest boost since it's currently the best DTT deck. If Wasteland makes a big comeback, casting Rhinos will get tough, and we might see a lot less Pyromancer, which could make trample less relevant. Still, he's a 4/5 with a lightning helix attached that doesn't die to Decay (expect more of those) or Bolt, and can be fetched with GSZ. He also still gets past TNN, which might not end up losing that much ground to Monastery Master without Cruise.

tescrin
01-19-2015, 03:02 PM
I think Tasigur looks good. Between Delve and DRS we should be able to not only cast him easily and get CA out of him but I think his activated ability is controllable with DRS/Top/Library/Fetches to make good use out of it and it's not "card draw"; which leaves open other possibilities.

I'm still figuring on how best to use him; but he'd likely have to replace Bob.
Pros:
-Huge. Harder to kill (only Plow/Lily)
-The repeatable CA is instant speed and can occur in the same turn (5 mana req)
-As above, we don't have to wait a turn
-CA should be higher quality


Cons:
-Not castable T2
-May not play nice with Goyf early game
-CA can't really happen until a turn later than Bob
-CA requires lots of mana
-Legendary Delve


To mitigate the third I'm thinking a 1-2 Loam in the deck could mitigate both the 2-Drop, Early Liliana, and Karakas problems.

maharis
01-20-2015, 02:27 PM
I didn’t do so hot last night, but it was mostly attributable to misplays from fatigue. I do have a two-week old after all. Meta at the store was funny. A couple people taking UR out for a last cruise, one guy on Miracles, a couple Elves players – but at least 4 painter players and lots of storm as well.

Rd 1: UWR Painter – beat him down with Faeries game 1, cast a QPM without mana up instead of an SFM in game 2, giving him an opening to Servant-REB it, kept a one-lander in game 3 which was fine unless he had exactly grindstone, force + blue card, and painter. Guess what?

Rd. 2: Elves – very grindy game 1 that I lost, game 2 I held off on teeg early thinking he would know I was bringing in some kind of permanent-based hate, and I was rewarded by a turn 3 natural order and an inability to find a Swords for Craterhoof despite getting Top, Sylvan, and Courser online and just letting Craterhoof bounce off chump blockers. Eventually I had Teeg down but he just hardcasted the second Hoof and won.

Rd. 3: UB Painter – I won, this was an experimental brew, we played about six games and I think he got me once. Interesting deck idea, but needs a lot of work.

Rd. 4: Bantchantress – Me: Bayou, DRS. Him: Yavimaya Coast, Seas Claim. Eventually I was choke-locked and he won. Game 2 I won with discard, I gave him game 3 because I was about to pass out into my deckbox. Another interesting deck but absolute bore to play against.

I really should’ve won that Painter game, I knew what was in his hand and I just let myself be stupid. And I should’ve windmilled Teeg early. But other than pilot error, the deck ran really smoothly. I saw a lot of cards, though granted I didn’t play against decks that pressure your life total.

With Cruise banned I am looking forward to bringing Lili back into the fold. What will be crucial is whether or not Young Pyromancer remains popular, because he is very difficult for her to deal with. I miss playing a planeswalker in this deck though. And I believe this is the best deck against Miracles in the format, so if that’s on top again, bring it on.

If BUG and RUG come back in force, we just have to play smart. If you can get to turn 4 against RUG it should be hard for them. Don't fetch into Stifle, don't play into Daze, grab basics when you can. Basics. BUG is always a pain because they are playing the same game as us but with more powerful support cards. However, they lack any sort of reach other than DRS so you can use your life total as more of a resource. I've found Toxic Deluge to be strong against them in the past. They typically play some combination of DRS, Delver, Goyf, and TNN, and if you can sweep out their non-Goyf creatures and Decay/Plow their Goyfs you often have a clear path for some sort of token with equipment to win.

I'm very interested in seeing how the Courser build I've been playing does against Waste-Stifle strategies. I've had a lot of land in play. But Siege Rhino might still be too greedy.

I don't think Tasigur is a solution. Strictly as a creature, I don't think you can say he's an upgrade over Tombstalker, and the "card advantage" requires you to invest mana and gives opponents choices.

sdematt
01-20-2015, 03:32 PM
I agree that if Miracles is going to be the best deck (and it is, since they still get to keep DTT), then we're well positioned going forward.

Rhino might be a bit greedy for this deck, but even as a 1-2 of, he's nice due to the drain and evasion. RUG with Stifle was still in the format and he was still fine against them. BUG is still fine since they don't have Burn, which is a big problem for this deck.

I don't think Pyro will be as popular anymore because you lose too much steam if you dump your hand to make a bunch of tokens and now they have fewer ways to refill. DTT might still see some play, but the deck will be worse.

-Matt

tescrin
01-20-2015, 05:40 PM
I don't think Tasigur is a solution. Strictly as a creature, I don't think you can say he's an upgrade over Tombstalker, and the "card advantage" requires you to invest mana and gives opponents choices.

He's 2-mana less and no BB in the cost while he can grant easy, repeatable CA; that's a significant set of plusses. You can control the choices with DRS and Delve; he's not a terrible topdeck (like Bob can be) since he easily stabilizes the board (BSK, mid-sized goyfs, almost everything else) the CA can happen the same turn he enters (so you can 2-for-1 that Plow) and he is immune to most removal and very well positioned against anything non-white.

When was the last time you saw a playable creature with card-advantage strapped to it that can ground-stall an equipped Thalia? IMO, that's pretty impressive. I could be totally wrong, he just seems like a sleeper-hit and I would not be the least bit surprised to see a Shardless, BUG Delver, or Junk/Jund deck top with it in the coming weeks.

Mirrislegend
01-22-2015, 10:28 PM
@ Mr.Safety: I'm curious about some of your card choices and I would like to hear about your experiences with them.

- Has 3 Bob/1 Library been sufficient?
- Does 3x Stoneforge ever feel low? I find Stoneforge ALWAYS brings out an answer, whereas Goyf does not, therefore highlighting Stoneforge as a greater threat. Thus I'm on a 4x Stoneforge, 3x Goyf split
- How's that Treetop Village been? Looks spicy, but CIPT lands can really punish you in the early game.
- No Lingering Souls? I've found it to be one of the best cards in the deck, on more than a few occasions.
- I suppose the LSouls slots are your Tidehollow Scullers. Those guys have never been good for me, but maybe I'm biased. And they may be much more relevant now with the banning of TC.

Mr. Safety
01-23-2015, 06:31 AM
1) No, the 3 bob was a concession to how many bolts were floating around. He died in many a match. Upon TC's ban I will be on 4 bob/1 library. Library is really hot, so I might have to buy another.
2) Maybe I'm odd but I have drawn into my equipment in a lot of games, making drawn mystics really dissapointing. I understand the premise of 4 mystics, I don't dispute it, I am just unnaturally afraid of having no equips to fetch. Side note: sofi is in the board again.
3)I have always put a single treetop in my legacy rock deck, since day 1. When Knight was the best creature in legacy it was a given and now that knight is meh, I still use it. It can be awkward early but its only a singleton. I won a few games against miracles because I could play around Terminus with it.
4) Sculler has always been incredible for me, if you'll notice i play 6 maindeck one mana discards, then 3 sculler, then 3 lili. Thats a lot of hand hate. My combo matchups are generally easier to fight. Ihave gone back and forth with sculler side/main but for now I like it main without TC driving the format.
5) Lingering Souls cuts were a test. I'm definately on the LS bandwagon. I need to retool so I can include at least 2 copies in the maindeck.

Richard Cheese
01-26-2015, 12:52 PM
4-0 this weekend with Rocksteady. Moved the second Teeg and Ooze to the board for two Mox Diamonds main in anticipation of Stifle and Waste coming back.

Probably should have lost a match against Tezzerator, but it was still a closer matchup against that deck than any other creature deck I've played. Trample still seems pretty relevant.

sdematt
01-26-2015, 01:49 PM
Post the list.

ZeinVoncy
01-27-2015, 11:44 AM
Matt, I know mentioned something a bit back, when's the rehaul happening? The list has changed so much in the recent months. Not sure how big forked bolt will be in the next few weeks, but I know dark confidant is not well positioned nor is knight of the reliquary. What's the reason for knight not being good nowadays?

sdematt
01-27-2015, 12:01 PM
The rehaul has stalled since the format changed again.

Sorry for any mistakes/brevity. Im in class on my phone.

Knight is not as well positioned due to Deathrite and STP with few ways to protect her. Maverick has Mother. It isnt known how much Forked Bolt will stay in the format, but I expect to see more Hymn.

My re-rehaul looks like this:

4 drs
4 sfm
3 goyf
3 rhino
3 confidant or Liliana

3 thoughtseize
2 therapy
3 stp
4 decay
3 sylvan
2 lingering souls
1 gsz
1 solas
1 sofi
1 jitte

3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 savannah
4 heath
4 catacombs
3 wasteland
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 dryad arbor

3 teeg
1 ooze
3 carpet of flowers
2 zealous per
2 ee
2 krosan grip
2 pithing needle

Basically Im not sure if you want Liliana anymore. Shes only good against Miracles ( better than Rhino likely) but still fragile. With more Delver, specifically, back in Black, rhino is a threat they cant remove amd handles TNN, liliana may or may not amd dies easily.

However, boarded against miracles, its a fucking Nightmare matchup. Confidant is exceptional in the match since he bites removal or draws so many cards. He could turn into an Arena and 2 other something but less forked bolt meams he MIGHT be good enough to come back.

Overall, Miracles is now by and far the best deck, junk may grow into its own a bit more.

Richard Cheese
01-27-2015, 01:05 PM
Post the list.

But I'm so laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzyyyy...fine, here's the meat of the .cod file, since I don't have cockatrice installed at work, but I keep my decks on Dropbox:

<zone name="main">
<card number="4" price="0" name="Green Sun's Zenith"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Knight of the Reliquary"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Siege Rhino"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Thrun, the Last Troll"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Abrupt Decay"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Deathrite Shaman"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Gaddock Teeg"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Forest"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Swamp"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Karakas"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Bayou"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Scrubland"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Savannah"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Marsh Flats"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Verdant Catacombs"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Swords to Plowshares"/>
<card number="3" price="0" name="Thalia, Guardian of Thraben"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Sylvan Library"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Wasteland"/>
<card number="4" price="0" name="Tarmogoyf"/>
<card number="2" price="0" name="Scavenging Ooze"/>
<card number="1" price="0" name="Qasali Pridemage"/>
</zone>

From that, remove one Ooze and one Teeg, and add 2 Diamonds.

Also I did have a game where I used all 4 Rhinos. One got taken by Hymn, drew into 2 more and ran them into Liliana, and finally GSZ'd for another. The lifegain was extremely relevant and put me in a position where even though he had a 5/6 Goyf, he couldn't profitably attack because I was back at 18 and he was at ~8.

I've thought about trying to shove in SFM, maybe -1 Rhino, Goyf, Thrun...something for 2x Stoneforge, Jitte, and SoFI. I think I'm going to wait and see where the meta as a whole and locally goes though. I haven't really wished I had equipment in any match so far. I probably will make room for a Dryad Arbor though. As much as I hate it without SFM, there were a couple times this weekend where it would have been pretty handy for acceleration. Not sure if I should cut a land or a creature though.

Edit: FFS I can't think about this deck or this thread without getting that song in my head now.

tescrin
01-27-2015, 01:13 PM
Overall, Miracles is now by and far the best deck, junk may grow into its own a bit more.

I honestly still view the deck as poorly positioned vs. Miracles. Maybe rhino is enough to swing things; but at the last SCG I was 0-2'd by miracles while landing a SoFaI in both games. I simply couldn't connect with a dude more than about twice. I think instead of Souls and maybe Confidant, I'll be on Blossom the next time I'm in junk; since having every card type in a deck sounds so attractive with Goyf, and Blossom helps break Miracle's game plan where Souls feels like you're still losing cards.

Either way; I'm currently enjoying Esper as a means to go from about 0% win rate with Miracles to 85% (might go down with more data points)

Richard Cheese
01-27-2015, 01:38 PM
I honestly still view the deck as poorly positioned vs. Miracles. Maybe rhino is enough to swing things; but at the last SCG I was 0-2'd by miracles while landing a SoFaI in both games. I simply couldn't connect with a dude more than about twice. I think instead of Souls and maybe Confidant, I'll be on Blossom the next time I'm in junk; since having every card type in a deck sounds so attractive with Goyf, and Blossom helps break Miracle's game plan where Souls feels like you're still losing cards.

Either way; I'm currently enjoying Esper as a means to go from about 0% win rate with Miracles to 85% (might go down with more data points)

Any deck that wants to win with creatures is poorly positioned against Miracles. Still, I think Junk is in all the right colors to give them a lot of headaches with Teeg, GSZ, and Decay. I'm going to be trying Mastery of the Unseen in the board because it seems like a great way to play around Jace and Counterbalance. I may also go back to good old fashioned Extirpate as well.

sdematt
01-27-2015, 03:11 PM
I mean, a consortium of hate pieces like Teeg, grip, needle, thoughseize, sylvan and decay is pretty decent.

maharis
01-29-2015, 03:51 PM
Yeah, we just have so many cards that are incidentally good against them main and after board you can reach a critical mass.

In your maindeck you probably have:
Stoneforge Mystic (puts a permanent threat down in form of equipment, often uncounterable)
A resilient flying token producer (usually Souls, sometimes Bitterblossom, something that can't get wiped out by a single Terminus)
Abrupt Decay (kills Counterbalance)
Deathrite Shaman (accelerates, clocks, makes Snapcaster bad if they play it)
A permanent-based card draw/selection engine (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, SDT)
Hand disruption (even though they play off the top of the deck, a t1 Thoughtseize can wreck a lot of their hands)
Wasteland (this can really matter if they are light on fetches early)

You might also have:
Tarmogoyf (early clock)
Green Sun's Zenith (Gets around counterbalance, nice vs Terminus)
Dryad Arbor (uncounterable creature, fetchable off GSZ/fetches)
Liliana of the Veil (pressures hand and board)
Qasali Pridemage (ok, I'm probably the only guy still playing this one)

Then after board you probably have:
Gaddock Teeg (lol)
Krosan Grip (more CB/Top kill)
Pithing Needle (Jace, Top)

You might also have
Something to deal with Angel tokens (Engineered Explosives, Deed)
Thalia

In addition, their deck might play mainboard red blast effects that are dead vs. us.

Honestly the only mainboard card we have that is bad against them is Swords to Plowshares, and even then sometimes you nail a Clique or Venser or something. Goyf may die to STP, but they have to find it first; Rhino has an ETB effect (nice Jace) and then clocks and lives through a fight with an Angel. Knight can mow down shaky land draws or just clock them.

The key differences between our classic midrange approach and what Maverick does are the token spells, a fuller commitment to a draw engine and Stoneforge, and the full set of Decays. Those are really problematic for Miracles, as they need time to set up their coup de gras and depend on you not being able to keep up with the CB lock, sweepers, and card selection. Souls or Bitterblossom + equipment make Terminus less good, Abrupt Decay turns off the lock, and Sylvan/Bob/SDT balance out the fact that they are pumping mana into cantrips or their own tops every turn. And since they don't pressure our life total, we are free to draw off Sylvan or Bob without fear.

You won't always win it, but it is a very favorable matchup in my experience.

Mr. Safety
01-30-2015, 07:14 PM
Is Hymn an option for junk again or is there not enough space/other cards take priority?

ironclad8690
01-31-2015, 01:19 AM
Is Hymn an option for junk again or is there not enough space/other cards take priority?

I am playing a midrangey list currently:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls
3 Siege Rhino

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge

I do not think this is an ideal configuration, but it has lots of game against delver and miracles. Without Confidant, you need a little extra help against combo (as you will not be drawing extra discard spells), so I packed the sideboard with more discard and hatebears.

GhostEmpire
01-31-2015, 03:58 AM
I am playing a midrangey list currently:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls
3 Siege Rhino

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge

I do not think this is an ideal configuration, but it has lots of game against delver and miracles. Without Confidant, you need a little extra help against combo (as you will not be drawing extra discard spells), so I packed the sideboard with more discard and hatebears.
I am relatively new to this deck, and I'm looking at lots of various configurations - I thought your build was neat though.

sdematt
01-31-2015, 04:04 AM
Is Hymn an option for junk again or is there not enough space/other cards take priority?

I think it's fine if you want to go with a 16 creature Jund configuration:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Siege Rhino

3 Sylvan Library
3 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls

Or some such thing. I think there's a bit more play with SFM, but who knows?

-Matt

Mr. Safety
01-31-2015, 08:34 PM
I can't help but think that anything playing souls would want mystic.

Here is my current list, trying to see if there is room for hymn or not:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x stoneforge mystic
2x tidehollow sculler
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
4x swords to plowshares
4x abrupt decay
3x liliana of the veil
1x sylvan library
1x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull
2x lingering souls
22x lands (61 maindeck)

I can see the one mana discard getting trimmed to 5 to make 60, and my biggest hesitation for leaving hymn out is the clog at 2 mana. Targeted discard can at least clear the way to resolve a threat if topdecked late in the game. Hymn is a way to push tempo harder.

I'm also still playing liliana x3 in the maindeck. She still seems to do a lot of work, but I could see dropping to 2 and that would make 60.

My real question is this: is siege rhino the real deal? I'm skeptical, but open minded too. I called batterskull wrong when it first got spoiled amd now its a mainstay staple of the format. *Shrug* its a 4 mana non-jace, non-natural order, non-tendrils threat. It seems bad to me. Sell me.

sdematt
02-01-2015, 03:32 PM
I can't help but think that anything playing souls would want mystic.

Here is my current list, trying to see if there is room for hymn or not:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x stoneforge mystic
2x tidehollow sculler
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
4x swords to plowshares
4x abrupt decay
3x liliana of the veil
1x sylvan library
1x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull
2x lingering souls
22x lands (61 maindeck)

I can see the one mana discard getting trimmed to 5 to make 60, and my biggest hesitation for leaving hymn out is the clog at 2 mana. Targeted discard can at least clear the way to resolve a threat if topdecked late in the game. Hymn is a way to push tempo harder.

I'm also still playing liliana x3 in the maindeck. She still seems to do a lot of work, but I could see dropping to 2 and that would make 60.

My real question is this: is siege rhino the real deal? I'm skeptical, but open minded too. I called batterskull wrong when it first got spoiled amd now its a mainstay staple of the format. *Shrug* its a 4 mana non-jace, non-natural order, non-tendrils threat. It seems bad to me. Sell me.

If I had to modify your list to put Hymns in, I'd go -2 Sculler, -1 Iok; +3 Hymn to Tourach. That way you still have 5x 1-mana discard, and you don't clog at two much more since you're swapping mostly 2 for 2.

As for Siege Rhino, it's a bit harder to justify in this deck over, say, Junk Nic Fit which is reliably casting him on Turn 2/3 and also plays 4 GSZ.

How do I sell you on the threat? Sure, here we go.

1. It's a 4/5, always and forever. Rest in Peace will hurt us, so having something that doesn't care about RIP is cool beans.

2. It's a 4/5 with trample, meaning most of the other creatures in the format die and you get to deal between 2-3 damage to your opponent on an attack. The only big creatures that fight with it are Goyf (generally also a 4/5), large Oozes (not common), and large Knights (also not common). Batterskull is a 4/4 and Rhino can attack/block into Skull and not die, which is a big deal.

3. It "deals" with TNN. Liliana isn't always reliable as a removal spell against TNN, but the drain cancels a TNN attack, and he can trample right over.

4. The drain is extremely useful in racing faster matchups, especially Delver. The drain cancels out a Delver attack, and the 4/5 body is better than anything in any of the delver decks except Goyf. It gives you breathing room against Bolt, TNN, Delver, etc.

5. It's an unprofitable bounce against Jace. They have to dig for removal, they can't just -1 him.

6. Doesn't die to Bolt, Punishing Fires, Spell Pierce, or Abrupt Decay.

Matchups he's good to see in: other grindy midrange matchups (Blade/Jund/Shardless), Delver, Burn

Matchups he's mediocre in: Miracles


Bad things:

1. He's 4 mana, which isn't chump change. Welcome to Daze city.

2. He doesn't discard to Liliana like Lingering Souls does.

3. He has no protection; he still dies to STP

4. He's a literal do nothing against Combo.

Matchups he's bad in: Dredge, Sneak, ANT, Omni, High Tide, etc.



All in all, it really depends on how you want to play your deck.

-Matt

KrzyMoose
02-02-2015, 04:54 PM
Hey guys, it's been a couple years since I've played Legacy, but I had the chance to jam some side events at GP:SJ, where I went 8-1-1 overall (4-1, then 4-0-1).

First, the list!

22 Land - 8 Fetchlands, 6 Duals, 4 Basics, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

SB: 3 Choke
SB: 4 Assorted Graveyard Hate
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers

I haven't played since before True-Name Nemesis was a card, so I wasn't sure how this list would hold up. I never actually faced a TNN, so I still don't know! I played against: Goblins (W), ??? (W), Elves (W), Miracles (W), Storm (L), Lands (W), Lands (D), Storm (W), Tin Fins (W), OmniTell (W).

I think the deck played great, though I'm not entirely sure about the Sideboard. I basically just threw it together before the first event and was too lazy to change it for the second. I didn't play against Delver or Blade decks, so I'm not sure how I would've fared against those.

One thing I would like to figure out is a strategy against decks that bring in Leyline of Sanctity. Fortunately, the OmniTell player didn't find any, but that match could easily have turned out differently had he landed one. Any ideas?

sdematt
02-02-2015, 04:54 PM
Convinced? :P

Moose, I'm writing a response.


TNN is a pain in the neck for our deck, since you need cards with evasion to get around him. Liliana certainly helps, but isn't the end all, be all. Zealous is also fabulous against TNN, as is SoFI.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

SB: 3 Choke
SB: 4 Assorted Graveyard Hate
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers

I see Jitte and Batterskull, but no SOFI. SOFI needs to be in the deck to get around certain pesky cards like TNN, and I'd personally swap Batterskull for SOLAS or SoFF. There will be a rise in BUG, and SoLaS is good against Blade and Miracles. I think 1 Hymn is weak, and ZP doesn't need to be in the main anymore. I'd run something like:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOLAS
2 Sylvan Library
2 Hymn to Tourach

As for the board, that's truly metagame dependent. Generally, I like having a few cards against Delver (Carpet of Flowers is a really good one), Gaddock Teeg does double duty against Miracles and Combo, a couple of sweepers (I use Engineered Explosives since it's good against Delver, Jace if you need to, Entreat, etc.), Krosan Grips against opposing SFM decks and Miracles, and generally some graveyard hate (I'm running light with just an Ooze in the board).

You could go something like:

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution

-Matt

sdematt
02-03-2015, 11:56 PM
Made a few changes again:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thoughtseize
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
3 Siege Rhino
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
2 Phyrexian Arena

SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ulvenwald Tracker
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

I'm trying Siege Rhino in the list and no Liliana. Rhino isn't as good as he was in the Cruise meta, but he's still a WAY bigger threat against decks like Shardless and Delver decks. I upped the discard count in the maindeck to combat combo and such, and to have more interaction in the early turns. I was thinking I wanted to shoe horn Hymn back in, and essentially, Arena could be Hymns and Therapies would turn back into Dark Confidant. I want to still run Confidant but I only had 2 slots left if I wanted to keep three Rhino. I figure they'd be better as Arenas if I can only run 2.

maharis
02-04-2015, 07:50 AM
I know Rhino doesn't have that same 4-mana "win the game" feeling as JTMS and Natural Order, but it is the only one that actually can upon resolution. I won three games off a GSZ for 4 at GPNJ. The reach shouldn't be discounted.

Matt, any reason why you only run the one GSZ? Especially with so many higher CC cards in our deck now, I've really liked more GSZ because it gives us extra pieces of T1 ramp.

Warden
02-04-2015, 08:38 AM
Made a few changes again:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thoughtseize
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
3 Siege Rhino
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
2 Phyrexian Arena

SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ulvenwald Tracker
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

I'm trying Siege Rhino in the list and no Liliana. Rhino isn't as good as he was in the Cruise meta, but he's still a WAY bigger threat against decks like Shardless and Delver decks. I upped the discard count in the maindeck to combat combo and such, and to have more interaction in the early turns. I was thinking I wanted to shoe horn Hymn back in, and essentially, Arena could be Hymns and Therapies would turn back into Dark Confidant. I want to still run Confidant but I only had 2 slots left if I wanted to keep three Rhino. I figure they'd be better as Arenas if I can only run 2.

Your curve is too high to run Confidant without harming yourself for serious damage a high % of the time (plus TS, arena, and fetches). I disagree with Phyrexian Arena although the throwback makes me smile.
Since you have access to basically any junk card, I would consider this the creature shell:
4 DRS (g)
4 Goyf or 3:1 Scavenging Ooze (g)
3 SFM
3 Rhino (g)
3 GSZ (11 g targets + 1 arbor)

My personal spin would be to cut the Lingering Souls + Therapy package. LS + Therapy = higher risk-reward that what I'm suggesting below. I like boring consistency.
3 Cabal Therapy + 2 Lingering Souls ---> 2-3 confidant + 2-3 inquisition

2x Souls without Liliana is a bit weak, but that's just my perspective. I feel Confidants fit in this alternative mix because your curve is considerably lower (no arena, no lingering) + there are a lot of 1-drops with TS, GSZ, and IoK. Also, with 3 GSZ in the list, you have the option to shave out that 3rd Teeg for a business spell or some anti-blue powerhouse like Thrun. The remainder of the deck looks to follow your tried and true method Matt. Perhaps shave Library #3 for another Confidant? Not sure.

Mr. Safety
02-04-2015, 12:25 PM
Thanks for the rundown sdematt. I think I'm too committed to Bob for rhino, but I like your points. I think I prefer a more tempo approach also, and siege rhino isn't exactly tempo (not in legacy.)

So I will be doing this:

-2 sculler (to sideboard)
-1 iok
+2 hymn (gets me to 60)

Sideboard for now:
1x sofi
1x surgical extraction
2x sculler
2x choke
1x zp
1x deed
1x teeg
1x thalia
1x pulse
1x pithing needle
2x kor firewalker
1x open for grave hate

Is scavenging ooze legit as grave hate or should I use a faster card like relic of progenitus?

sdematt
02-04-2015, 01:10 PM
Ooze is legit. He's slower, sure, but he's a tank and has uses against Deathrite and Goyf decks as well, in addition to P. Fire.

-Matt

Mr. Safety
02-04-2015, 07:40 PM
Gotcha, ooze added as grave hate #2. Is that enough or should I have 3+? I always figured deathrite.in the main augmented by 2 in the board seemed like enough.

sdematt
02-04-2015, 10:52 PM
I mean, you're not going to beat Tin Fins or Manaless everytime, but you should be fine for > 90% of matchups where you want the hate.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
02-26-2015, 06:36 PM
I've been playing junk exclusively for 2 years now, though I jumped on nic fit when treasure cruise had it's reign.
Since the justice day (B&R announcement) I've been back on the grind and have been rocking this deck with small variations each week in my Thursday night legacy city store in Nagoya, Japan.

It's only 3 rounds, but things are getting pretty hot because of GP Kyoto on the horizon.

Over 5 weeks, I'm currently 13-2. Which is a pretty dumb record. However, combo is underrepresented at my store (it exists just not as much as you would expect) so take that awesomeness with a pinch of salt. In usually crushing delver variants, miracles, jund, maverick, burn, mono black and UWR midrange. Storm lands show n tell and reanimator show up occasionally.

Here's list I played yesterday for another 3-0 (beating standstill, punishing jund and rug delver)

4 Verd
3 Marsh
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Treetop village
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
23

3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
2 inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
4 abrupt decay
2 liliana

4 shaman
4 goyf
3 bob
1 library
2 ling souls
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
37

2 Surgical ext
2 pithing needle
2 canonist
2 containment priest
2 gaddock teeg
2 siege rhino
1 Eng Exp
1 Eng Plague
1 Deed
15

I basically tried to stream line the deck to the minimal CMC and minimal color requirements possible, so I'd be extremely active in the first 2 turns, and able to play man lands like treetop (MVP by a long way! The amount of times I've beat a midrange or control deck with man lands is silly, let alone with a SoFaI)

So I originally didnt have liliana, but found she was a necessary evil when I was getting beat down by TNN, or my main deck rhinos was doing nothing against combo.

Also taken a trick from blue decks, in that I'm running my versatile combo hate main deck (FoW for them, discard for us). Like you don't want it against non combo decks so much but it still always does something. And then you can side out copies for stronger cards against non combo.

As much as I love rhino (when he was spoiled I swore he would see play in all formats but vintage and my friends called me crazy)I just don't need him to win at all, the man lands get it down enough. So I'm thinkkng of cutting them for the second library and 1 more combo hate card (suggestions?).

Critiques, pl0x

Mr. Safety
02-26-2015, 07:20 PM
Your deck is only 3-4 cards different from my list (maindeck.) I've always swore by treetop but I haven't seen 2 copies ever. I like it. How does factory work for you? Know it takes the place of wasteland #4 but I always figured on playing 4 factory or none, just because of the boost ability.

Edit: I play 3 liliana, 2 hymn, 4 sieze, 1 inquisition and only 22 lands where you play 2 liliana, 3 seize, 2 therapy, 2 inquisition, and a 23rd land. I also have relegated sofi to the board in favor of the 4th confidant.

Jain_Mor
02-26-2015, 09:13 PM
Hey Mr. Safety! That's cool.

Basically I'm coming from the other direction, yes 4 factory is sweet. But I need the wasteland for the additional disruption against combo and utility lands. So I'm not going to run 4, so why 1?
Well I would run 3 treetop if I could! But come into play tapped is a real cost.. So I'm trying one as a factory, it's cheaper to activate and equip too. It also still blocks and kills a nimble mongoose, which is what I really expect from my man lands. I don't need it to be any bigger than that, so one is fine.

I like hymn a lot.. But double black is a pain, and 2 mana can just be too slow.
I feel strongly on 23 lands, 22 is too greedy :P

And I love SoFaI, it's the best thing to get when you have man lands, I definitely prefer it over a bob. It's very important as insurance agains true name, JTMS and punishing fire.

What does your sideboard look like? Apologies if you have recently posted it, I'll go look for it.

sdematt
02-27-2015, 01:18 AM
Siege Rhino does some excellent work in Nic Fit, but perhaps, you might be correct in saying he might not do enough here. However, Liliana is not TNN-removal guaranteed, and the 4/5 trample will get through even if they have another creature online.

I'm still bouncing around on the last 6-8 slots, but everyone's core is the same. I noticed a few Japanese lists for Junk were doing well, turns out, it was you, maybe. Congrats!

-Matt

Jain_Mor
02-27-2015, 02:58 AM
Siege Rhino does some excellent work in Nic Fit, but perhaps, you might be correct in saying he might not do enough here. However, Liliana is not TNN-removal guaranteed, and the 4/5 trample will get through even if they have another creature online.

I'm still bouncing around on the last 6-8 slots, but everyone's core is the same. I noticed a few Japanese lists for Junk were doing well, turns out, it was you, maybe. Congrats!

-Matt

Haha, I doubt those lists were mine, but thanks.

With 4 StP decay and discard it's likely you can engineer the situation so it's their only creature or they top deck it in empty board etc.
It's not just about TNN though, the constant ticking up against combo is worth it.
I keep swining back and forth, next week he'll be main deck again no doubt.

Deckerator
02-27-2015, 07:58 AM
Played the following list at a local tournament. Ended 2-2
Lost to Grixis Delver and to UWR Patriot. Got a free win and won against MUD.

I won the first match every time but lost the second and the third match. I often had problems with the mana base. Didnt draw enough mana to go off or couldnt draw into a removal. Game 2 against UWR Patriot i get really hard screwed with wasteland.
All in all i was really happy with this deck. It was a last minute creation.^^ Had no time to test it.


4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Scrubland
1x Savanah
1x Godless Shrine

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tasigur, the golden Fang

4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Toxic Deluge

1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

2x Liliana of the Veil

1x Sylvan Library

Mr. Safety
02-27-2015, 07:46 PM
Hey Mr. Safety! That's cool.

Basically I'm coming from the other direction, yes 4 factory is sweet. But I need the wasteland for the additional disruption against combo and utility lands. So I'm not going to run 4, so why 1?
Well I would run 3 treetop if I could! But come into play tapped is a real cost.. So I'm trying one as a factory, it's cheaper to activate and equip too. It also still blocks and kills a nimble mongoose, which is what I really expect from my man lands. I don't need it to be any bigger than that, so one is fine.

I like hymn a lot.. But double black is a pain, and 2 mana can just be too slow.
I feel strongly on 23 lands, 22 is too greedy :P

And I love SoFaI, it's the best thing to get when you have man lands, I definitely prefer it over a bob. It's very important as insurance agains true name, JTMS and punishing fire.

What does your sideboard look like? Apologies if you have recently posted it, I'll go look for it.

Currently:

1x surgical extraction
1x scavenging ooze
2x tidehollow sculler
1x thalia, guardian of thraben
1x gaddock teeg
2x kor firewalker
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
1x sword of fire and ice
1x zealous persecution
2x choke
1x pithing needle

Edit: I play an urborg to help accommodate the double black spells (hymn, liliana).

Jain_Mor
03-03-2015, 02:11 AM
SDEMATT, you played with meddling Mage in the side before, how was your experience with him? Is one dual land, 8 fetches and 4 shamans plenty to cast him right? Did you run 2, 3 or 4? Alongside or instead of teeg?

Why did you drop him?

I've been looking for more catch all answers to combo in my sideboard, the only card that always comes in is extraction for me, but running 4 of them seems dumb, so I have 2 slots left (or 4 if I replace the teegs, fetching an underground sea means you can't cast both off of 2 land, and tropical island seems like the wrong choice)

sdematt
03-03-2015, 10:36 AM
I've got some tech that I'll post after class, and I'll answer your question. All you have to do is wait 5 hours :P

-Matt

sdematt
03-03-2015, 05:25 PM
So my Meddling build was:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

but I think I'm going to try the following:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Siege Rhino

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Taiga
SB: 2 Extirpate

The list plays a Taiga in the side for Slaughter Games. I've also cut EE to put in Extirpate in the side since Lands is seeing a ton of play.

Why Slaughter Games? Games is exceptionally good at killing combo decks and control decks, which is where this deck does have problems. Meddling Mage can be bounced or removed very easily, even if not expected. Games does a good job at killing Miracles by neutering Jace or the likely call might be Entreat. Explosives wasn't doing a ton of work since it was generally used against Delver, but with Carpet now, the Delver matchup is actually quite okay.

Extirpate is a bit better than Surgical because I want it for Loam. We're not bad against Lands, so if you didn't want to run this, this is easily more Elves/midrange hate or even more discard, Teegs, etc.

I've still cut Liliana since I still want to see how far Rhino can go.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
03-03-2015, 06:21 PM
Haha, we're both exploring that sideboard spot
I don't like games at all :P you have to waste a sideboard slot for it, it's tempo negative and costs 4 mana. If I've made it to 4 mana alive against combo, I feel like I'm already winning!

This is my next iteration I'll be trying tomorrow night. I maybe playing a gpt this weekend as well.

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
22

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
3 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
38
60

2 Surgical
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 teeg
3 Thalia
2 pithing needle
2 deed

Lowered the curve, shaved a land and minimized colour requirements to get as much early game as possible, since once we are are in the mid or late game, we tend to dominate.
Think treetop village is the rhino you're looking for ;)

Thalia is my new catch all card I'm trying, idea being she slows down combo enough to make sure I hitore discard and hate bears. She's also very relevant against delver.
-4 thoughtsieze, -1 library +3 Thalia +2 deed is pretty sweet.

Of note, I tried tasigur over the weekend and did not like him at all :/
I saw him multiple times and he was just a more difficult to cast Tarmogoyf.

sdematt
03-03-2015, 08:14 PM
Games are for different matchups. It has side benefit to Storm combo, but does more duty against Miracles (your primary contender), 43 lands, and if fast enough, damage against OmniTell, Storm, and others. Thalia is doing different work, mainly moreso against Combo. Thalia is bad against Miracles and 43 lands, for example.

I also wouldn't cut Sylvan against Delver. I'd rather go to 61 with your list.

I think in the metagame, Miracles and Lands are more prevalent than ANT, making Slaughter Games at least worth trying. TES is too fast with (generally) to interact with, since they can easily go off turn 1 before discard or Thalia.

-Matt

Plague Sliver
03-03-2015, 08:22 PM
Good to see you're on the Taiga/Slaughter Games train :cool:

I might give your latest build a spin. I miss Sylvan Library way too much, and these 3 FBB Libraries I have deserve to be played, not sitting in a box.

2 Bobs, 4 SFM looks weird to me...but I suppose you have your reasons. Sylvan is better in a lot of cases.

sdematt
03-03-2015, 08:52 PM
There's still enough Bolts in the format. Plus, when running 3 Rhino, it can get awkward on life totals. Sure, draining cancels them out if he resolves, but you're in an awkward spot if he doesn't. Could also go 2 Rhino 3 Bob.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
03-03-2015, 10:19 PM
You're right on lands taking an upswing, it's a pretty annoying deck to play against, and why I moved to 4 wastelands.
What do you name against them? Life from the loam? I prefer surgical or extirpate since u can take out maze of ith or stage etcetc

I find that our miracles match up is fine. And the 2 needles, teegs and deeds is more than enough to deal with them.
Usually taking out 4 StP and 2 IoK.

Some miracles have been siding in mentor against me recently, but with jitte decay and deed, I dnt think that's as effective as they would think. Though of note, it is threat that can sneak under slaughter games, so watch out for that.

I guess I'd cut a bob then if you think library is better. He can't block well and life loss is annoying.

But yea, try them, who knows, might catapult the deck to tier 1 :P

Seraphix
03-04-2015, 09:30 AM
...

Why Slaughter Games? Games is exceptionally good at killing combo decks and control decks, which is where this deck does have problems. Meddling Mage can be bounced or removed very easily, even if not expected. Games does a good job at killing Miracles by neutering Jace or the likely call might be Entreat. Explosives wasn't doing a ton of work since it was generally used against Delver, but with Carpet now, the Delver matchup is actually quite okay.

...



Could you elaborate which combo decks Slaughter Games is particularly effective against/what you would name?

I feel like most good combo decks like Elves and Storm are pretty resilient to the effect. I also fear its too slow against these types of decks.

sdematt
03-04-2015, 10:02 AM
I meant moreso like OmniTell or Food Chain. I think it's a bit slow against ANT unless you're starting into disruption.

Decks I wouldn't bring it in against:

Elves
Midrange decks
Delver
Dredge

Might bring it in against (if I have a lot to bring out):

Storm - Infernal Tutor
Sneak and Show - Show and Tell

Bring it in against:

Miracles - Jace/Entreat
43 Lands - Life from the Loam
OmniTell - Cunning Wish/Enter the Infinite
Food Chain - Misthollow or Food Chain


It is obviously at its best against Miracles. EE was the slot beforehand, and that was basically coming in against Miracles to stop Entreat, and I haven't killed a Jace in a while. I guess I lose some Dredge points since I can't kill zombies, but whatever.

I'm not saying this slot is the best, but I want to try it and see how it goes :)

I think the core of these sideboard cards, for me, will stay as long as the other decks are popular:

2 Krosan Grip - Stoneblade, Miracles, Counter-Top, Enchantress, Blood Moon/Painter
2 Zealous Persecution - True Name Nemesis, Elves, tokens
2 Carpet of Flowers - Blue Decks
2 Pithing Needle - Sneak Attack, Top, Painter, etc. etc.
2 Gaddock Teeg - Combo, Miracles

Who knows about the other 5 slots? Each of these selections covers a lot of ground, but we're missing out a bit on graveyard hate/SnT hate/Combo hate since those decks don't seem too popular at the moment.

-Matt

damionblackgear
03-04-2015, 12:48 PM
Bring it in against:

Miracles - Jace/Entreat
43 Lands - Life from the Loam
OmniTell - Cunning Wish/Enter the Infinite
Food Chain - Misthollow or Food Chain

Don't name Misthollow Griffin vs Food Chain unless you can ensure that they'll NEVER get 4 mana. Otherwise, you're in for an interesting match.

If 'Storm' and/or, to a lesser extent, Elves are causing issues, Orim's Chant - or another Silence effects if chant unavailable - might be a card to re-visit. Most people forgot/ignore/unaware that silence effects are available. You might be able convince them to spread their deck thin with defenses, post their encounter. With something on the board for them to play-around as well (Teeg, Thalia, Thorn, etc), you might buy enough time for your control to take over 'til game's end.

Additionally:


- Only hits for 1 when revealed by Bob
- 'Works' against Miracles - miracle trigger on the stack.
- Doesn't weaken manabase with additional color(s).
- Force a spell(s) through standard counters.
- Can be used to buy time from combat for Removal/Sweeper. (Chant Only)

Just a thought. Good luck.

sdematt
03-09-2015, 02:21 PM
Display of Dominance 1G

Choose 1:

-Destroy target noncreature that is blue or black.
-Target permanent you control cannot be targeted by blue or black spells this turn.

So, it's a nice 2-mana instant speed answer to Jace, opposing decays, Omniscience, Chain of Vapour, Liliana, etc. etc.

Welcome back, boys and girls.

-Matt

maharis
03-09-2015, 02:23 PM
So, it's a nice 2-mana instant speed answer to Jace, opposing decays, Omniscience, Chain of Vapour, Liliana, etc. etc.

Welcome back, boys and girls.

-Matt

And I almost posted earlier today "Hey, what do you guys think of Imp's Mischief out of the board against other BGx decks?"

sdematt
03-09-2015, 02:42 PM
Well that suggestion is now strictly worse :P

-Matt

sdematt
03-10-2015, 01:25 AM
I think Display of Dominance may deserve 1-3 slots in our deck. What are your thoughts?

Sure, it's not a real creature removal spell, but it does hit:

Counterbalance
Jace
Omniscience
Liliana of the Veil
Pernicious Deed
Murderous Cut/Disfigure
Abrupt Decay
Chain of Vapour
Submerge

and a few other choices, but realistically, Jace can be a big problem. I know it'll be squeezing a few into Nic Fit, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing playable instant speed Jace removal. Considering you get to kill him in response to their Brainstorm, which is where they're usually digging for countermagic or an answer, I think it's prudent. It's faster than Beast Within or Hero's Downfall without the negative side effects/narrowness.

I think if I were to continue running this:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Siege Rhino

I might cut a Rhino and/or a Scooze and try it out. Maybe it's better in the board, but I feel like it's more like a Maelstrom Pulse slot. I think the upside of instant speed outweighs the permanents you either can't hit with Grip from the board, or the colours you miss.

I feel like one of the few permanents not covered by Decay/Grip/DoD are things like Elspeth KE, which no one plays, and other off colour walkers, which hardly see play.

Plague Sliver
03-10-2015, 10:41 PM
Realistically, the only 2 things on that list I'm afraid of are Liliana and Jace.

Why not just run Beast Within, my favorite card of 2011? Easier to cast, almost no drawback. The other stuff, you usually never see or wouldn't care to answer because you're out-attritioning them with this deck.

sdematt
03-10-2015, 11:43 PM
Because one mana and not having the token does make a difference. If you're on the play, you can cast a 2-drop on turn 4 and leave 2 mana open to muck Jace, whereas otherwise, they get to profit off that Brainstorm and counter the thing.

-Matt

sdematt
03-10-2015, 11:51 PM
So perhaps something like:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Display of Dominance

1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

--BOARD--

2 Zealous Persecution
2 Krosan Grip
1 Display of Dominance
2 Pithing Needle
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest/other hatebear
1 Scavenging Ooze

-Matt

Plague Sliver
03-11-2015, 01:53 AM
New build looks good, will give it a spin.

P.S. Display of Dominance art is just craptacular. Ugh. Even in Russian it's gonna look bad...

P.P.S. I don't think it stops Deed? Deed doesn't target.

sdematt
03-11-2015, 02:12 AM
Just killing an onboard Deed, not stopping it.

The art on DoD is fucking hideous. Might have to get alters done.

-Matt

datanaga
03-13-2015, 04:31 AM
Hi all,

I would like to play this rock/junk list:

MD:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
4x tarmogoyf

4x swords to plowshares
3x abrupt decay
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek

3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls

1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sylvan library

4x wasteland
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacoms
3x scrubland
2x bayou
1x savannah
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains

SB: not yet, but probably some like numbers
5x anti control cards (choke, sylvan library, sofi)
7x anti combo cards (teeg, canonist, surgical, nihil spellbomb, hymn)
3x anti aggro cards (disfugure, zealous persecution)

What do you think about above list? What is your advice for SB in general meta?

Thanks:)

Tokugawa
03-13-2015, 05:03 AM
Hi all,

I would like to play this rock/junk list:

MD:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
4x tarmogoyf

4x swords to plowshares
3x abrupt decay
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek

3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls

1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sylvan library

4x wasteland
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacoms
3x scrubland
2x bayou
1x savannah
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains

SB: not yet, but probably some like numbers
5x anti control cards (choke, sylvan library, sofi)
7x anti combo cards (teeg, canonist, surgical, nihil spellbomb, hymn)
3x anti aggro cards (disfugure, zealous persecution)

What do you think about above list? What is your advice for SB in general meta?

Thanks:)
3 IoK have a non-negligible chance of empty cast. Personally, I would replace 1 or 2 IoK with therapy.

sdematt
03-13-2015, 08:47 AM
Hi all,

I would like to play this rock/junk list:

MD:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
4x tarmogoyf

4x swords to plowshares
3x abrupt decay
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek

3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls

1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sylvan library

4x wasteland
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacoms
3x scrubland
2x bayou
1x savannah
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains

SB: not yet, but probably some like numbers
5x anti control cards (choke, sylvan library, sofi)
7x anti combo cards (teeg, canonist, surgical, nihil spellbomb, hymn)
3x anti aggro cards (disfugure, zealous persecution)

What do you think about above list? What is your advice for SB in general meta?

Thanks:)

I think this is a good representation of a nice, well rounded list. 4 SFM and 2 Equipment feels weird, and so does only 1 Sylvan. I'd add a Sylvan, and cut the 3 IoK for 2 Cabal Therapy and 1 more Equips :)

-Matt

datanaga
03-13-2015, 09:20 AM
I think this is a good representation of a nice, well rounded list. 4 SFM and 2 Equipment feels weird, and so does only 1 Sylvan. I'd add a Sylvan, and cut the 3 IoK for 2 Cabal Therapy and 1 more Equips :)

-Matt

Thanks you both for your advices.

I played esperblade few years ago and 4x sfm with 2x equipment was gold standard so it isn't looks weird to me:)
I can't find space for 3th equipment or for 2nd library, according to your recomendation I'm on 61 cards:)

About therapy VS inquisition) I can imagine some kind of split between iok and cabal, but I'm still not sure if 3 seize and 2 therapy is enought to fight combo G1.
Miss with therapy on turn 1 is pretty awful almost like with iok, because only creature I want to sacrifice for flashback cost is spirit token and it could be done on turn 3 at best - which is not fast enought imho:(
I'm also bit afraid to be more grave dependant in fear of RIP.

I will give it a try to all your recommendations.

sdematt
03-13-2015, 10:19 AM
Just remember you're running 3 Lingering Souls so Cabal Therapy is REALLY good here. I didn't see you were already on 61 ;)

-Matt

datanaga
03-13-2015, 11:02 AM
Just remember you're running 3 Lingering Souls so Cabal Therapy is REALLY good here. I didn't see you were already on 61 ;)

-Matt

OK, I will definitely give therapy a try.
I wasn't, but you recommended to cut 3x iok (-3), add library (+1), add equipment (+1), add 2x therapy (+2) :)

Warden
03-13-2015, 12:34 PM
@datanaga;872477

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
4x tarmogoyf

4x swords to plowshares ----> I'd run 3 STP, 4 Decay just because Decay is so good
3x abrupt decay
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek ------> If you're "bad" at Therapy (it is a skill), keep running IoK intead.

3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls

1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sylvan library

Lands

**I personally prefer "stuff" > Lingering. I think LS is too slow for the format, especially now, unless you can guarantee a mid/long game. It's also done very little for me against Delver (removal), Miracles (boardwipes and RIP), and any combo. May just be my luck. I am going against the grain saying IoK is alright. If you suck at Cabal, it burns you. And I'm sure sdmatt can confirm it's a learned skill with how to play/name with it. Over the long game it's nice to live out the LS + Therapy train....but the times I've run Junk recently I felt very behind. I'd rather run 2x Library and a GSZ or two. A goyf could be traded out for a Scavenging Ooze/Rhino, especially if GSZ is around.

Captain Hammer
03-15-2015, 10:26 AM
I don't really feel that White gives this deck anything it needs.

How do you feel about foregoing white entirely to ramp up the decks consistency and resiliency against Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, something like this?

//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tombstalker or Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize or Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Tokugawa
03-15-2015, 11:14 AM
I don't really feel that White gives this deck anything it needs.

How do you feel about foregoing white entirely to ramp up the decks consistency and resiliency against Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, something like this?

//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tombstalker or Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize or Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Does dark ritual in a fair deck, do anything helpful to "consistency"? Don't think so.

DRS/decay/Liliana/Bob/Goyf make a excellent "core" of a BGx deck; however, it perform better with a "shell" of red or white spells.

It is much more easier to cast 3cc and 4cc spells with DRS. So BGx decks have more characteristics of Midrange decks, and the old-school "Suicide rush" tactics went to its extinction.

maharis
03-15-2015, 11:28 AM
I should've played this deck at eternal extravaganza. Lost to miracles twice and painter before dropping, probably would've won all three. Though I might have had trouble with storm, my only win.

Seraphix
03-16-2015, 09:37 AM
I don't really feel that White gives this deck anything it needs.

How do you feel about foregoing white entirely to ramp up the decks consistency and resiliency against Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, something like this?

//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tombstalker or Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize or Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I've thought the same thing before but splashing a color is almost free with DRS and a pile of fetchlands anyway. Adding 2 Bx duals to the list you posted leaves you with 4 basics, still a decent amount. White if nothing else provides valuable sideboard options in the form of permanent-based hate to complement your discard, which is quite valuable in my opinion. Not to mention good 1 mana removal in Plow (Disfigure is a card, but kinda meh) and threats like SFM, Souls, Knight, etc.

Also I don't think the "payoffs" of playing straight BG Rock (i.e. Phyrexian Obliterator) are good enough to justify it.

Captain Hammer
03-16-2015, 10:58 AM
I've thought the same thing before but splashing a color is almost free with DRS and a pile of fetchlands anyway. Adding 2 Bx duals to the list you posted leaves you with 4 basics, still a decent amount. White if nothing else provides valuable sideboard options in the form of permanent-based hate to complement your discard, which is quite valuable in my opinion. Not to mention good 1 mana removal in Plow (Disfigure is a card, but kinda meh) and threats like SFM, Souls, Knight, etc.

Also I don't think the "payoffs" of playing straight BG Rock (i.e. Phyrexian Obliterator) are good enough to justify it.

The main payoff of playing BG Rock is the ability to play lots of basics and thus resiliance to cards like Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Back to Basics, Wastelands and other nonbasic hate. Even with playing 3-4 basics, in a three color build, you will far more often want to grab a dual rather than a basic turn one leaving yourself more open to a blood moon, In addition, by playing more basics, you get more utility from your opponent's Veteran's Explorers, Path of Exiles and such.

It may not sound like much but an unexpected Blood Moon is DEVASTATING to Rock and sees play in main deck and sideboard in lots of matchups. Being able to ignore that more easily by playing a list like this is a significant bonus.

Deck Name: Su Black
// Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I updated the above list based on people's suggestions so far. Any additional suggestions would be much appreciated as well. I'm still debating Sylvan Library vs. Sensei's Divining Top so if you think one is better than the other for this deck, I would love to hear your input.

Another nice bonus of sticking with two colors is the ability to play a few Wasteland as well which is clutch in certain games.

And lastly, no matter how easy splashing a third color is, the two color version will always be more consistent. There will be games where you will screwed out of the third color that won't happen as often with a two color deck.

The resilience is worth more than what you're sacrificing by going this route because you're not actually losing out on anything. StP is simply redundent and unneeded in a deck that plays Decay, Liliana, Nighthawk and Deed, all of which offer a lot more flexibility than StP.

datanaga
03-16-2015, 11:34 AM
//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
0 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
0 Umezawa's Jitte
.

I'm sorry, but I don't like your list. Your curve is way to high and without T1 deathrite will be slow as hell. Full playset of legendary Tasigurs, really? Why? Imagine you opponent have Karakas in play.
Did you already test it? I would cut some Tasigurs and Obliterators for Mox Diamonds and Loam maybe.

Captain Hammer
03-16-2015, 01:23 PM
I play a the same list as that one, only difference is that I'm using Tombstalker instead of Tasguri until I get my play set of Tesguri.

The curve is perfect as is, this is rock, not suicide, it's fine if you don't dump our your whole hand by turn 3. You're fine playing what you need to without overextending then blowing everything up with Deed.

Obliterater is amazing and quite underestimated IMO.

I was also playing around with Dark Ritual for a while earlier and had a great experience with the card so I was considering putting a few back in to add some speed but it seems unnecessary at the moment.

If the legendary status of Tasuri is a problem, I would probably cut one for a Jitte or the fourth wasteland.

Seraphix
03-17-2015, 08:42 AM
...
//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
0 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
0 Umezawa's Jitte

Another nice bonus of sticking with two colors is the ability to play a few Wasteland as well which is clutch in certain games.

And lastly, no matter how easy splashing a third color is, the two color version will always be more consistent. There will be games where you will screwed out of the third color that won't happen as often with a two color deck.

The resilience is worth more than what you're sacrificing by going this route because you're not actually losing out on anything. StP is simply redundent and unneeded in a deck that plays Decay, Liliana, Nighthawk and Deed, all of which offer a lot more flexibility than StP.

How has Nighthawk performed? Also, no love for Top or Library? If you're not going to play Bob I think some sort of card selection is necessary.

Have you considered playing straight BG in a Nic-Fit shell with Explorers, Therapy, etc.? That might be better suited to what you're trying to accomplish.

sdematt
03-18-2015, 12:09 AM
I used to play Nighthawk back in 2011 in Deadguy Ale leading up to GP Providence. The card wasn't bad at all, but mind you, Mental Misstep was legal in the format. He frequently traded with big dudes or stopped them from attacking. However, is he good enough now? Even in Deadguy, there are so many other cards I'd want to be playing.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong in playing a straight either GB Rock list or Eva Green, I just think many times, white gives you some much more flexibility. However, if your meta is full of Blood Moon, then play it, but generally, people aren't dealing with that. There's also the option of Nic Fit if you want to have the option of lots of basics, and it gives you lots of raw power in your threats.

I think if I were running Eva Green (a more sligh build), I'd run:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tasigur

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Unearth
1 Display of Dominance

21 lands

Board would look something like Deed, Grip, Display of Dominance, Needle, Golgari Charm, Extirpate/Surgical, etc.

If you were wanting straight BG Rock, you would just switch stuff like Dark Confidants to harder to deal with threats and more removal/walkers. Maybe something like:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Top
3 Sylvan Library
2 GSZ
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Display of Dominance

Obliterator and Tracker seems pretty lols, and Relentless can be a beating with Tracker as well.

I think white gives you more long game, in a sense. You get a bit more flexible removal with STP, and your long game and TNN game is better with Equipment. Up to you, though :)

-Matt

sdematt
03-25-2015, 08:08 PM
Trying this lately:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Display of Dominance

1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I cut down on a Swamp to fit in the Display of Dominance. Maybe it's not good enough, but we'll see. I cut Rhinos for some sessions on Cockatrice, but that guy is pretty fat and I liked having him. Time will tell with testing.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
03-27-2015, 12:50 AM
Probably not the exact right thread, but I brainstormed this junk deck at lunch, gonna test it later this evening, looks hilarious at the least.

4 Mom
4 Shaman
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 KotR

2 Thoughtsieze
4 StP
4 Decay
4 Collected Company

Couldn't fit in SFM :( thoughts on this monstrosity?

Warden
03-27-2015, 04:02 PM
Probably not the exact right thread, but I brainstormed this junk deck at lunch, gonna test it later this evening, looks hilarious at the least.

4 Mom
4 Shaman
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 KotR

2 Thoughtsieze
4 StP
4 Decay
4 Collected Company

Couldn't fit in SFM :( thoughts on this monstrosity?

I actually like this kind of build. My quick take: I think Collected Company needs to be played with "come into play" triggers. Or just a ton of value stuff. CC --> Dude + SFM is the christmas land you want. Part of me believes Bant is the better shell because you can out-value everyone with Shardless Agent + CC in the same 60. However, much like Bant.dec, you gotta pick 4 or 5 key creatures to build around. Do you want it green-focused? Do you want it white-focused? Do you want it multi/gold-focused? A sampling of all 3 colors means you're relatively unfocused. Similarly, I can see Discard #1 + Liliana/Discard #2 + Decay being the only protection you need. You'll just out-value the opponent by dumping a bunch of stuff on the table and removing their answers.

iamajellydonut
03-27-2015, 05:11 PM
I actually like this kind of build.

And so do I. In Modern where any piece of shit is possible and you can run flawlessly with thirty-five creatures. But, much to my dismay, it just doesn't work in Legacy. Not because Knight+friend or CIPT triggers are bad (hellooo Fleshbag Marauder), but because you still can't get the creature count that you need. How many non-creatures does that have? 14? Not exactly my choices for the fourteen, but I was never able to trim it much lower either without gimping myself either. Anyway, add in lands to that mix, and you're looking at about twenty-three qualified creatures tops.

That's not enough to prevent wiffing. Yes, it's absolutely earth shattering magnificence when Collected Company hits two, regardless of the two, but you cannot wiff on even one creature or you go broke.

Richard Cheese
03-27-2015, 07:11 PM
And so do I. In Modern where any piece of shit is possible and you can run flawlessly with thirty-five creatures. But, much to my dismay, it just doesn't work in Legacy. Not because Knight+friend or CIPT triggers are bad (hellooo Fleshbag Marauder), but because you still can't get the creature count that you need. How many non-creatures does that have? 14? Not exactly my choices for the fourteen, but I was never able to trim it much lower either without gimping myself either. Anyway, add in lands to that mix, and you're looking at about twenty-three qualified creatures tops.

That's not enough to prevent wiffing. Yes, it's absolutely earth shattering magnificence when Collected Company hits two, regardless of the two, but you cannot wiff on even one creature or you go broke.

Haven't been following this site too closely lately...has anyone done the math on Company to see what the percentages for hitting two in the top 6 are?

I'm not sure that even if you ran enough to make it really consistent that it's that much better than good old GSZ. I can't really think of a matchup other than maybe Pox where two random creatures > one specific creature. I suppose it puts more pressure on Miracles and screws with Jace, but so does GSZ for Thrun, and it's easier to push through Counterbalance.

Hell, I might even rather have Mastery of the Unseen. At least for 4 mana that guarantees you at least a 2/2 EOT, it's a repeatable effect, and it gets stupid good with Library in the late game.

iamajellydonut
03-27-2015, 08:32 PM
Haven't been following this site too closely lately...has anyone done the math on Company to see what the percentages for hitting two in the top 6 are?

It's pretty simple math. The easiest way to think of it is that each creature is effectively one tenth of a creature when you're revealing for Collected Company.

Also, in something closer to a Maverick list, you do need to cut some number of GSZ when running Collected Company for reasons of "it's not a creature" and because its late game effectiveness becomes somewhat usurped. But the real cards you're looking to very literally replace with Collected Company are the equipment.

maharis
03-27-2015, 08:53 PM
It's pretty simple math. The easiest way to think of it is that each creature is effectively one tenth of a creature when you're revealing for Collected Company.

Also, in something closer to a Maverick list, you do need to cut some number of GSZ when running Collected Company for reasons of "it's not a creature" and because its late game effectiveness becomes somewhat usurped. But the real cards you're looking to very literally replace with Collected Company are the equipment.

Is it as simple as you need 2 cards out of every 6 in your deck to be creatures, so you need at least 20 to have a decent chance? Or do you need to creep up to 24-25?

The thing about CC to remember is, even if you only hit one creature, if it's CMC3, you just got an instant speed GSZ.

I think you are right about Modern though, in modern cards like Blade Splicer are nice to grab whereas in legacy it's kind of meh. (Thanks Terminus). Obviously you live the dream of casting it and getting like Kitchen Finks - Fleshbag Marauder but again, sort of meh in Legacy.

One thing to watch is the Origins planeswalkers... the Lili is a CMC 3 creature, and is an intriguing card.

iamajellydonut
03-27-2015, 09:20 PM
Is it as simple as you need 2 cards out of every 6 in your deck to be creatures, so you need at least 20 to have a decent chance? Or do you need to creep up to 24-25?

I haven't done the exact math in terms of where the extremes lie, but 23-24 is clearly terrible. Based on that, I would say 26-28 is manageable, and 28+ is optimal. It's tough to judge not only because I haven't done anything other than find an average, but also because there's nothing gained on the "amazing" side of the odds. Really you're just looking to net any two creatures at all, so seeing six isn't that much better than seeing exactly two.

Like, if you roll two d6s, seven is average. Less than seven sucks, and higher than seven should be great. But with Collected Company, higher than seven is basically just seven.

I do still love Collected Company. I've got a few Modern lists chugging along nicely in terms of development, mostly hindered by the fact that I despise Modern and rarely set aside time to deal with anything regarding it. But Legacy I feel like development is stalled until they eventually print more creatures that generate consistency. As it stands now, we have a poor choice between wiffing with the card the deck is built around, or trading out our Sylvan Libraries and our Green Suns and our STPs for more mana dorks and other filler.


*sent from phone

Jain_Mor
03-30-2015, 09:43 AM
Article on Collected Company math, minimum 22 creatures:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-orator-of-ojutai-collected-company-and-dragons-of-tarkir/

3rd Place at GPT report.

Played a 50 man GPT for Kyoto in Japan on the weekend and after 6 rounds of swiss I lost in the semifinals (7-2), my friend won with URw delver paying myth realized. Which was annoying because if I won my semi, I’m sure I would have crushed him in the final! Anyways here’s my deck, not much has changed from a post I made a few months ago (skip to the end for some thoughts on the deck):

4 TS
3 IoK
4 StP
4 Decay

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
38

4 Verd Catac
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Treetop Village
22

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed

Round 1, Dredge 0-2:
G1: Great. Made a mistake, forgot that if I blocked with my SFM against an early zombie token I would exile his bridges… Whoops.
Side: -4 TS, -3 IoK, -2 Souls, -4 StP (a mistake I rectify later) -1 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgEx, +2 Needle (Cephalid Colleseum), +2 Canonist (a mistake I rectify later), +2 ContPriest, +3 Thalia, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed. So yea, everything.
G2: Mulligan to 5, haven’t seen a DRS in both games, don’t find hate and just die. A great start! But I redeem myself later.
Thoughts: Wish I kept in some STP to remove blockers because I have to beat down.

Round 2, Esper Miracles 2-1:
G1: I see a top and get excited! However, as the game drags on I draw a clump of 4-5 lands and I just don’t get there.
Side: -2 Iok, -4 StP // +2 Needle, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed.
G2: Grind him down, souls and equipment slowly get there.
G3: He plays Monastery swiftspear, which I’m fine with, staring at a deed in my hand. Again, we slowly grind out, but tree top village and bob gets there.
Thoughts: Having so many threats (lingering souls and treetop soo good) and removal for their tops, balances and misguided sideboard plans, plus teeg and needle make it a pretty fun matchup in my opinion.

Round 3, Goblins 2-0:
Usually a fine match up, but he had such a fast start I was sure I had no chance, but two top decked StP later and I stabilised and it was easy from there. Same in game 2 really.
Side: -3 Iok, -1 TS // +2 Needle, 2 ContPriest, 2 Deed
Thoughts: The removal suite, the blocking machines (goyf and souls) plus SFM inevitability make this pretty favourable.

Round 4, Dredge 2-1:
G1: Great, I’m the one that gets to play dredge twice. I have a turn 1 DRS though, and am doing ok.. but he slowly overwhelms me as I don’t draw a decay to answer his bridges.
Side: -4 TS, -3 Iok, -2 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgExt, +2 Needle, +2 ContPriest, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed
G2&3: I never really draw sideboard cards except needle, but DRS, Goyf beats, Decay on a spare shaman and STP get there both games.
Thoughts: Needle on the land is really useful, and some variants play griselbrand. DRS is so important, mulligan hard.

Round 5, OmniTell 2-1:
G1: Finally! I get to test against a blue based combo deck! After a TS and a library, I’m beating him down with goyf, shaman and bob, he cantrips billions, plays show n tell, for omni, casts dig and casts emrakul, he takes extra turn but has to pass because I have him so low and I survive the swing, I attack in next turn, get him to 3, but losing my goyf, it wasn’t good enough, he annihilates my stuff and I can only get him to 1 with my shaman. As I’m sideboarding, I realise I could have won if I used my library differently and it feels bad.
Side: -1 SFM, -1 Jitte, -4 StP, -4 Decay // +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia
G2: Discard and hate bears! :D
G3: Discard and hate bears! :D
Thoughts: It wasn’t easy, but my deck essentially won 3 games.

Round 6, Dark Maverick 2-0:
G1: He has two mums, but I have discard for his other threats and 2 SFM, I engineer an attack where he is tempted to use both his moms to block and I StP one. Eventually we both have Jittes and have a staring match, but I just have the overwhelming advantage from my creature count and he concedes
Side: -4 TS // +2 Needle, +2 Deed
G2: I have the edge again, but he claws back with a knight and a SoLaS to my Bob with a SoFaI. Fearing wasteland, and I say fuck it, and blow up the world with deed, knowing I have a SFM in hand and a tree top in play.
Thoughts: I honestly don’t know why dark maverick is a deck. They don’t interact enough to be midrange or control or a D&T variant, and they aren’t quick enough to be aggro. So what are they? I guess he was trying to go bigger than me, but I have more card advantage because of Bob, and more removal.

Top 8, as number 1 seed.

Quarters, Pox Reanimater 2-1:
G1: Turn 1 DRS goes all the way. Yay! I think he is on straight reanimator.
Side: -4 SFM, -3 Equipment, -2 Souls, -2 Decay (saw Animate Dead)
+2 Ext, +2 Needle (griselbrand), +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +3 Thalia
G2: We grind down into top deck more, he then casts small pox, followed by liliana (whaa?!), reanimates my bob and shaman and then proceded to draw more removal spells. I kill the shaman, hoping I can get him to bob triggers off of a griselbrand. Several turns later I’m down to 4 and he is still hitting me with it, I make a call and flash in my priest to block it. He animates dead his ashen rider, and next turn he draws the griselbrand! This would have killed him off the bob trigger if I had waited! I’m sure I made the right call though.
Side: Move 2 souls back in, and take out 2 canonists.
G3: We grind to a standstill again, and he gets a liliana, noo! It’s slipping away! I draw nothing, he plays deed, I draw needle, play it and name deed. He draws nothing, I draw souls! JUSTICE!
Thoughts: Weird games.

Semis, Grixis Delver with Shaman, 1-2:
G1: He has TNN, 2 pyros and 8 tokens. I have a BSK with a SoFaI ;)
Side: -4 TS, -1 Library // +3 Thalia, +2 Deed
G2: I mulligan to 5 and get stifled and stuck off white mana for my removal spells, feels bad
G3: Mullgian again and get stifled again, he gets an early delver down, I manage to answer it after some hits. I Iok him and he gets me with the spellpierce-redierect card, he’s got me with it before (he is a local and a good player), I choose to discard my gofy to play my SFM because I need to gain life. He drains me with shaman next turn, and double bolts me, so didn’t have a chance either way.
Thoughts: Stifle is so annoying. And not much I can do it about it, except play around it where I can. It just makes me wish I was playing less fetchlands, but 8 is right, right?

Overall Thoughts: It’s hard playing a fair deck without brainstorm and force of will, but I think this deck gets there with its ridiculous amount of redundancy and white hatebears in the side.

I keep thinking that I should play another land, because when I mulligan it gets difficult to rely on having 2 decent ones between 4 wasteland and 2 treetops (which I would never cut, card is horribly underrated, especially with equipment). However, I always found 23 a bit too many.

Liliana was cut a while ago because she is expensive, costs double black, too slow against combo, and everyone is running tokens. Definitely no regrets there. SFM is a bit lackluster for me right now, she requires so much mana to be effective.. but she is the only “oops I win card” in the deck, and I can’t think of anything else that could replace her. I think I will go down to 3 though, which would allow me to add a 23rd land. Of the Equipment, SoFaI and BSK over perform, and Jitte is amazing.. But I can’t help but think that SoFaI kills tribal decks almost as well as Jitte does, and BSK is just as good as gaining life. If I were to cut Jitte, I think I would add the 3rd lingering souls, that card always overperforms, is useful in more matchups and another answer to delver.

Out of the side, I like the hatebear idea a lot. The only cards I’m really thinking about are the 3rd thalia, and 2 surgical extractions. I want another effective card against delver decks, all I can think of is disfigure or another sweeper (EE, Deluge, Eng Plague or Golgari charm).. Any help here?

This will definitely be the deck I’m playing at GP Kyoto though, any thoughts, critiques and questions are welcome and encouraged. Cheers.

Warden
03-30-2015, 11:11 AM
I haven't done the exact math in terms of where the extremes lie, but 23-24 is clearly terrible. Based on that, I would say 26-28 is manageable, and 28+ is optimal. It's tough to judge not only because I haven't done anything other than find an average, but also because there's nothing gained on the "amazing" side of the odds. Really you're just looking to net any two creatures at all, so seeing six isn't that much better than seeing exactly two.

Like, if you roll two d6s, seven is average. Less than seven sucks, and higher than seven should be great. But with Collected Company, higher than seven is basically just seven.

I do still love Collected Company. I've got a few Modern lists chugging along nicely in terms of development, mostly hindered by the fact that I despise Modern and rarely set aside time to deal with anything regarding it. But Legacy I feel like development is stalled until they eventually print more creatures that generate consistency. As it stands now, we have a poor choice between wiffing with the card the deck is built around, or trading out our Sylvan Libraries and our Green Suns and our STPs for more mana dorks and other filler.


*sent from phone

I don't even know how to do the math for Collected Company. I feel it's a matter of deck manipulation (think Miracles using SDT and cantrips to find their removal). I think SDT, which pairs nicely with Bob, help considerably with Collected Company.

Tokugawa
03-30-2015, 12:22 PM
Round 1, Dredge 0-2:
G1: Great. Made a mistake, forgot that if I blocked with my SFM against an early zombie token I would exile his bridges… Whoops.
Side: -4 TS, -3 IoK, -2 Souls, -4 StP (a mistake I rectify later) -1 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgEx, +2 Needle (Cephalid Colleseum), +2 Canonist (a mistake I rectify later), +2 ContPriest, +3 Thalia, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed. So yea, everything.
G2: Mulligan to 5, haven’t seen a DRS in both games, don’t find hate and just die. A great start! But I redeem myself later.
Thoughts: Wish I kept in some STP to remove blockers because I have to beat down.

Round 2, Esper Miracles 2-1:
G1: I see a top and get excited! However, as the game drags on I draw a clump of 4-5 lands and I just don’t get there.
Side: -2 Iok, -4 StP // +2 Needle, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed.
G2: Grind him down, souls and equipment slowly get there.
G3: He plays Monastery swiftspear, which I’m fine with, staring at a deed in my hand. Again, we slowly grind out, but tree top village and bob gets there.
Thoughts: Having so many threats (lingering souls and treetop soo good) and removal for their tops, balances and misguided sideboard plans, plus teeg and needle make it a pretty fun matchup in my opinion.

Round 3, Goblins 2-0:
Usually a fine match up, but he had such a fast start I was sure I had no chance, but two top decked StP later and I stabilised and it was easy from there. Same in game 2 really.
Side: -3 Iok, -1 TS // +2 Needle, 2 ContPriest, 2 Deed
Thoughts: The removal suite, the blocking machines (goyf and souls) plus SFM inevitability make this pretty favourable.

Round 4, Dredge 2-1:
G1: Great, I’m the one that gets to play dredge twice. I have a turn 1 DRS though, and am doing ok.. but he slowly overwhelms me as I don’t draw a decay to answer his bridges.
Side: -4 TS, -3 Iok, -2 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgExt, +2 Needle, +2 ContPriest, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed
G2&3: I never really draw sideboard cards except needle, but DRS, Goyf beats, Decay on a spare shaman and STP get there both games.
Thoughts: Needle on the land is really useful, and some variants play griselbrand. DRS is so important, mulligan hard.

Round 5, OmniTell 2-1:
G1: Finally! I get to test against a blue based combo deck! After a TS and a library, I’m beating him down with goyf, shaman and bob, he cantrips billions, plays show n tell, for omni, casts dig and casts emrakul, he takes extra turn but has to pass because I have him so low and I survive the swing, I attack in next turn, get him to 3, but losing my goyf, it wasn’t good enough, he annihilates my stuff and I can only get him to 1 with my shaman. As I’m sideboarding, I realise I could have won if I used my library differently and it feels bad.
Side: -1 SFM, -1 Jitte, -4 StP, -4 Decay // +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia
G2: Discard and hate bears! :D
G3: Discard and hate bears! :D
Thoughts: It wasn’t easy, but my deck essentially won 3 games.

Round 6, Dark Maverick 2-0:
G1: He has two mums, but I have discard for his other threats and 2 SFM, I engineer an attack where he is tempted to use both his moms to block and I StP one. Eventually we both have Jittes and have a staring match, but I just have the overwhelming advantage from my creature count and he concedes
Side: -4 TS // +2 Needle, +2 Deed
G2: I have the edge again, but he claws back with a knight and a SoLaS to my Bob with a SoFaI. Fearing wasteland, and I say fuck it, and blow up the world with deed, knowing I have a SFM in hand and a tree top in play.
Thoughts: I honestly don’t know why dark maverick is a deck. They don’t interact enough to be midrange or control or a D&T variant, and they aren’t quick enough to be aggro. So what are they? I guess he was trying to go bigger than me, but I have more card advantage because of Bob, and more removal.

Top 8, as number 1 seed.

Quarters, Pox Reanimater 2-1:
G1: Turn 1 DRS goes all the way. Yay! I think he is on straight reanimator.
Side: -4 SFM, -3 Equipment, -2 Souls, -2 Decay (saw Animate Dead)
+2 Ext, +2 Needle (griselbrand), +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +3 Thalia
G2: We grind down into top deck more, he then casts small pox, followed by liliana (whaa?!), reanimates my bob and shaman and then proceded to draw more removal spells. I kill the shaman, hoping I can get him to bob triggers off of a griselbrand. Several turns later I’m down to 4 and he is still hitting me with it, I make a call and flash in my priest to block it. He animates dead his ashen rider, and next turn he draws the griselbrand! This would have killed him off the bob trigger if I had waited! I’m sure I made the right call though.
Side: Move 2 souls back in, and take out 2 canonists.
G3: We grind to a standstill again, and he gets a liliana, noo! It’s slipping away! I draw nothing, he plays deed, I draw needle, play it and name deed. He draws nothing, I draw souls! JUSTICE!
Thoughts: Weird games.

Semis, Grixis Delver with Shaman, 1-2:
G1: He has TNN, 2 pyros and 8 tokens. I have a BSK with a SoFaI ;)
Side: -4 TS, -1 Library // +3 Thalia, +2 Deed
G2: I mulligan to 5 and get stifled and stuck off white mana for my removal spells, feels bad
G3: Mullgian again and get stifled again, he gets an early delver down, I manage to answer it after some hits. I Iok him and he gets me with the spellpierce-redierect card, he’s got me with it before (he is a local and a good player), I choose to discard my gofy to play my SFM because I need to gain life. He drains me with shaman next turn, and double bolts me, so didn’t have a chance either way.
Thoughts: Stifle is so annoying. And not much I can do it about it, except play around it where I can. It just makes me wish I was playing less fetchlands, but 8 is right, right?

Overall Thoughts: It’s hard playing a fair deck without brainstorm and force of will, but I think this deck gets there with its ridiculous amount of redundancy and white hatebears in the side.

I keep thinking that I should play another land, because when I mulligan it gets difficult to rely on having 2 decent ones between 4 wasteland and 2 treetops (which I would never cut, card is horribly underrated, especially with equipment). However, I always found 23 a bit too many.

Liliana was cut a while ago because she is expensive, costs double black, too slow against combo, and everyone is running tokens. Definitely no regrets there. SFM is a bit lackluster for me right now, she requires so much mana to be effective.. but she is the only “oops I win card” in the deck, and I can’t think of anything else that could replace her. I think I will go down to 3 though, which would allow me to add a 23rd land. Of the Equipment, SoFaI and BSK over perform, and Jitte is amazing.. But I can’t help but think that SoFaI kills tribal decks almost as well as Jitte does, and BSK is just as good as gaining life. If I were to cut Jitte, I think I would add the 3rd lingering souls, that card always overperforms, is useful in more matchups and another answer to delver.

Out of the side, I like the hatebear idea a lot. The only cards I’m really thinking about are the 3rd thalia, and 2 surgical extractions. I want another effective card against delver decks, all I can think of is disfigure or another sweeper (EE, Deluge, Eng Plague or Golgari charm).. Any help here?

This will definitely be the deck I’m playing at GP Kyoto though, any thoughts, critiques and questions are welcome and encouraged. Cheers.

Did deed work well for you? Seems a bit slowly.

Plague Sliver
03-30-2015, 10:41 PM
4 TS
3 IoK
4 StP
4 Decay

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
38

4 Verd Catac
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Treetop Village
22

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed



Very cool build.

The Thalias out of the board are interesting but make sense.
Also like that you went with Treetop Villages and not Dryad Arbor, which can carry equipment well.
I think 3x Libraries are better than 2x. Maybe cut a Bob?

Plague Sliver
03-31-2015, 10:14 AM
Double post here as I wanted to share testing results.

I'm running sdematt's latest Junk Blade list, and played a couple practice games vs. Miracles, Delver, and Shardless Bug.

Observations -- maindeck:
- Lingering Souls: the nuts. Easily the best card in Miracles and BUG matchups. I didn't know before, and now I do.
- Not running Batterskull is a decent choice in these matchups, especially with Dryad Arbor as a possibility for equipping Swords + no real way to protect Stoneforge Mystic via Mom. If they strand Batterskull in your hand, it really sucks.
- Siege Rhino feels underwhelming. In almost all matchups, I wish it were a Lilliana. There aren't enough ways to find it (1x GSZ), and it's not always easy getting to 4 colored mana. Moreover, the only ramp is DRS. I would prefer running Rhino in Junk Nic Fit instead.
- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

Observations -- sideboard:
- Carpet of Flowers underperformed. I almost always wished it were Choke instead. There's not much I really want to ramp into.
- Display of Dominance wasn't so hot. It stopped Decay here and there, but whenever I drew it, I wish it were more proactive disruption like Maelstrom Pulse instead.

At the risk of offending everybody on the thread, I think it's better to go hard Maverick or Junk Nic Fit as alternative options. Of course it's dependent on playstyle. Maybe I just appreciate Rhino and Stoneforge in other shells more.

iamajellydonut
03-31-2015, 11:46 AM
- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

Aaand there it is.

Tokugawa
03-31-2015, 09:48 PM
Double post here as I wanted to share testing results.

I'm running sdematt's latest Junk Blade list, and played a couple practice games vs. Miracles, Delver, and Shardless Bug.

Observations -- maindeck:
- Lingering Souls: the nuts. Easily the best card in Miracles and BUG matchups. I didn't know before, and now I do.
- Not running Batterskull is a decent choice in these matchups, especially with Dryad Arbor as a possibility for equipping Swords + no real way to protect Stoneforge Mystic via Mom. If they strand Batterskull in your hand, it really sucks.
- Siege Rhino feels underwhelming. In almost all matchups, I wish it were a Lilliana. There aren't enough ways to find it (1x GSZ), and it's not always easy getting to 4 colored mana. Moreover, the only ramp is DRS. I would prefer running Rhino in Junk Nic Fit instead.
- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

Observations -- sideboard:
- Carpet of Flowers underperformed. I almost always wished it were Choke instead. There's not much I really want to ramp into.
- Display of Dominance wasn't so hot. It stopped Decay here and there, but whenever I drew it, I wish it were more proactive disruption like Maelstrom Pulse instead.

At the risk of offending everybody on the thread, I think it's better to go hard Maverick or Junk Nic Fit as alternative options. Of course it's dependent on playstyle. Maybe I just appreciate Rhino and Stoneforge in other shells more.
"Played in Nic fit" and "Playable in legacy" is totally different things.

In a typical "Rock/Junk" deck, even all-stars like SFM and Bob are competing slots to have full copies of 4. And the deck often totally exclude 3cc creatures. So a 4cc creature need very very strong reason to stay. I don't think Siege Rhino make the cut.

BTW, although Nic fit have "strange" cards like Broodmate dragon and Thrugtusk, it is not "a legacy deck playing Standard/EDH/Cube garbage". A creature still need to ensure its special funtion for being there...

sdematt
04-05-2015, 02:25 AM
Trying this for the next couple of weeks:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment (there's been a spike in Nic Fit and TNN in my meta, recently)
3 STP
4 Decay
3 Equipment
3 Sylvan
1 GSZ

23 Lands with Arbor

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Open

I think for the 2 Open slots I'll try 1 Sylvan Safekeeper and 1 Thrun, or 2 Hymns, or something like that. Display of Dominance is only okay, and I think Judgment is going to do more work all around by hitting Jaces, Batterskulls, TNN's, Thruns, etc. I've been missing a Pulse slot, and generally it is a better Pulse. A possibility is also cutting 1 GSZ, 1 Judgment and a land/Sylvan and running 3 Hymn maindeck again. The deck is already clogged a lot at 2, so I might not go for it.

-Matt

maharis
04-05-2015, 09:17 PM
Mom-junk got 10th at the IQ ("deadguy ale")

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82340

Jain_Mor
04-16-2015, 11:10 AM
So I'm going to kyoto tomorrow for the GP
This is the 75 I'm looking to take, some slots I'm still pondering over though.
(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh flats / 2 flats and 2nd treetop
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
1 Treetop
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
2 Liliana
1 Council's Judgment / 3rd Lili / 3rd IoK / 23rd land (2nd treetop)
38
60

2 Surgical
2 needle
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
1 Zealous Persecution / Golgari charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

Thoughts and luck etc :)
Is anyone else going by chance haha?

iamajellydonut
04-16-2015, 11:33 AM
(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

Sylvan Library isn't just about card advantage. It's about consistency, dig power, and the ability to run away with games you don't deserve to win simply because you have a Library and they don't. Plus, not being a creature makes it exceptionally hard to deal with, and it can serve as a solid foundation even in the more average games.

Also, judging by your saying "tokens", I'm assuming Maelstrom Pulse was the card you were looking for?

sdematt
04-16-2015, 12:27 PM
Ive really liked Council's so far in testing. Good luck! :)

sdematt
04-16-2015, 12:29 PM
IoK should be Thetapy when you have that many souls.

Warden
04-16-2015, 12:50 PM
So I'm going to kyoto tomorrow for the GP
This is the 75 I'm looking to take, some slots I'm still pondering over though.
(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

[snip]

Thoughts and luck etc :)
Is anyone else going by chance haha?

Honestly, @AMiamajellydonut is spot-on with his comments. While I've been running Dark Maverick with great success, I think a lot of my observations translate over to Junk as well. First, I am not a fan of Lingering Souls. It's slow (daze, pierce, FoW) and there are too many bolts in the American meta (lightning, chain, forked). The combo deck right now don't care if you have 1/1 flyers (with or without equipment). They usually win through anything you put on the field with Emrakul/Storm/critical mass of Hoof'ed Elves. If the expected meta is different for Kyoto, disregard what I'm saying. I would run with at least 1 (preferably 2) top-of-deck fixers like Top or Library. Second, Junk colors live and die by the topdeck. Sylvan is disgustingly powerful against all the blue aggro decks. SFM and Delver archetypes are relying on next to zero countermagic. So if top/library gets counterspell'ed in some capacity, they are likely pitching a cantrip to force it or they attempt to daze the card. Top is equally nuts, but as it's been mentioned countless times on TheSource the ways these cards help are slightly different (I'll gloss over this discussion intentionally). Once either of the aforementioned "fixers" are active, you can take control of future draws and prosper. Third, you could run Deluge in place of Liliana in the MD to take advantage of a token-infested metagame. I really like Liliana but if you're expecting to face swarms all day, she's better in the board. Deluge is one of the most powerful cards to run right now and resets the board at will. This will also help your elves and DnT matches G1. In terms of threats, the current meta favors KotR so much. Everyone rolls their eyes at her but I'm consistently seeing my knights in maverick be 5/5 and above by turn 3 or 4. Personally, I'd straight swap 3 Souls for 3 KotR or 2 KotR and a GSZ. Knight-fetching for Karakas also becomes a viable route in your maindeck. I think a gameplan of sweepers accented by Goyf and KotR would help a lot. Best of luck regardless of your 75.

8 fetch
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savanah
2 Scrubland
1 Treetop --> Karakas
3 Wasteland (color consistency more important unless you're comfortable)
/22

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Bob
2 SFM
/16

1 Jitte
1 Sword of X&Y / Batterskull
4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
2 Top / Library
1 M. Pulse / Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
/21

15 SB

iamajellydonut
04-16-2015, 01:11 PM
Coincidentally, I'm with Warden 100% on what he added. Though I do believe "tokens!" to be a misguided fear.

I don't usually say much about Lingering Souls though because I know it's a soft spot and I know it usually takes heartbreaking moments to properly understand. It's just... Slow. And if that's your cup of tea, great, but bear in mind that Lingering Souls should be supplemental to a deck that's suited to grind.

Jain_Mor
04-16-2015, 08:41 PM
Thanks for the prompt feedback peoples, much appreciated :)

So all though I agree on what sylvan library does, my thoughts were that paying 2 mana for something that doesn't at all interact with the game, is not that appealing when everyone is can tripping around delvers and combo decks. I do love the card, believe me haha. And any card I would play instead of it is just as useful in top deck mode.

My defense of souls is that, without it we don't have any fliers, meaning we can never block a delver, or get past board stalls. Souls plus sword of fire and ice is the easiest way to beat miracle. It also blanks all the targetted removal in the format to some extent.

That said ill brain storm some builds without it today, and see if prefer the gains. Though I'd probably be adding 2 library's and an IoK or liliana. And then I'm just afraid that I won't be able to reliably equip things onto a creature.

IoK instead of cabal therapy because
A) I want to cast my turn 1 discard on turn 1 to clear a path for my 2 drop threat. That doesn't work when swtp, bolt and daze etc all answer that equally well.
B) I just haven't had much success with it anyway, I probably need far more practice with it, and I recognise that.

I really don't like knight, I've tried it so many times, and played against it so many times, and always found it essentially irrelevant.

Finally, I did try a toxic deluge version of junk nic fit with UR delver was all the rage, and I like the idea of including one or 2 main deck. That would be sweet.

(Councils over pulse because it isn't the tokens that you want to kill but the thing that's making them usually, which liliana can't do was my point. That councils can take care of TNN and Emrakul obviously gives it the nod over pulse)

iamajellydonut
04-16-2015, 09:39 PM
You can't rely off topdeck. Lands ensure that all bets on the topdeck will lose. But Sylvan Library ensures that any future rolls on the topdeck will always come up heads. And it breaks those boardstalls you're so desperate to beat with Lingering Souls. That being said, you are correct in that Library doesn't have immediate "oomf", which is why all competitive decks that aren't constructed by Matt run a maximum of two.


Why are you trying to block Delver? Anyway, the problem with Souls is that, much like your gripe with Sylvan Library, it doesn't have "oomf". If you cast a Dark Confidant, your opponent has to kill it. If you cast a Thoughtseize, it will fuck with your opponent. If you cast a Stoneforge Mystic, your opponent cannot let it untap. If you cast a Lingering Souls, well, congratulations. You just clogged the board.

The ability to dictate the actions and pace of the game matter quite a great deal, and Lingering Souls doesn't give your opponent any immediate pause. Oh, sure, if they don't have a Deathrite or something, it'll be a bitch. But from the time you cast it till five turns later, your opponent doesn't have to give a single fuck. That's a lot of breathing room. And it's the same problem our aging Tarmogoyf has.


Preferring Inquisition of Kozilek over Cabal Therapy is perfectly normal and fine. They do different things. Preferring X to Knight of the Reliquary is also fine. It's a phenomenal creature, but its application can feel limited if not in the right environment.


If you're trying to get rid of an Emrakul with Council's Judgment, you've clearly let the game go too far. In a question of tokens and random blow-out vs True-Name Nemesis and Batterskull, the latter clearly takes precedence. However, the distinction is seldom relevant whereas double white will consistently be a pain in the ass.

Warden
04-16-2015, 10:15 PM
Thanks for the prompt feedback peoples, much appreciated :)

So all though I agree on what sylvan library does, my thoughts were that paying 2 mana for something that doesn't at all interact with the game, is not that appealing when everyone is can tripping around delvers and combo decks. I do love the card, believe me haha. And any card I would play instead of it is just as useful in top deck mode.

My defense of souls is that, without it we don't have any fliers, meaning we can never block a delver, or get past board stalls. Souls plus sword of fire and ice is the easiest way to beat miracle. It also blanks all the targetted removal in the format to some extent.

That said ill brain storm some builds without it today, and see if prefer the gains. Though I'd probably be adding 2 library's and an IoK or liliana. And then I'm just afraid that I won't be able to reliably equip things onto a creature.

IoK instead of cabal therapy because
A) I want to cast my turn 1 discard on turn 1 to clear a path for my 2 drop threat. That doesn't work when swtp, bolt and daze etc all answer that equally well.
B) I just haven't had much success with it anyway, I probably need far more practice with it, and I recognise that.

I really don't like knight, I've tried it so many times, and played against it so many times, and always found it essentially irrelevant.

Finally, I did try a toxic deluge version of junk nic fit with UR delver was all the rage, and I like the idea of including one or 2 main deck. That would be sweet.

(Councils over pulse because it isn't the tokens that you want to kill but the thing that's making them usually, which liliana can't do was my point. That councils can take care of TNN and Emrakul obviously gives it the nod over pulse)

I'll stand behind the list I posted earlier and also continue to agree with @iamajellydonut. Sylvan Library's effect is probably the best thing the deck can do with green (even better than goyf anf DRS). It's at worst a sensei's top you get on the house every turn. When necessary, you take 4 (and sometimes 8) to ensure you're ahead in ammunition. Like I mentioned above, if you don't want Library go SDT. You need some amount of topdeck "fixers". These fixers keep the card quality up (which is all you need vs cantrips). Let those decks durdle all day. Ensuring you can drop business spells all day.

Regarding Souls, no offense, I think you're playing things wrong. I find LS too slow but if you're hellbent on running them them....don't use them to block delvers. You have a ton of removal (minimum 4 STP, 4 Decay plus Liliana, etc). Against Miracles, I'd rather go with walkers and bank on Lilianas/Garruks in the board. A maindeck Pulse/Golgari Charm is also a nice touch.


If you're trying to get rid of an Emrakul with Council's Judgment, you've clearly let the game go too far. In a question of tokens and random blow-out vs True-Name Nemesis and Batterskull, the latter clearly takes precedence. However, the distinction is seldom relevant whereas double white will consistently be a pain in the ass.

The truth right here. Shred their hand so their big toys never come out. Blow up any and everything. Deluge can kill off anything, hence the suggestion.

Jain_Mor
04-16-2015, 11:45 PM
Regarding Council's, I didn't mean that im relying on it to get rid of emrakul, who thinks that haha?
I was just saying the fact that it does, and pulse doesnt, can be relevant. Yes celestial is harder to cast, but the fact that it hits TNN gives it the nod for me.

Regarding souls, I guess you've convinced me haha. I'm slightly worried that without it I'll be able to equip less reliably, since we don't have a TNN, and I've never registered a JUNK deck without souls #shedtear, but I'll try it. If I come back home from Kyoto crying... I've added the 2nd treetop to help (the amount of times I've equipped sword to that guy is awesome)

So revised list:

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
23

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Library
2 Liliana
1 Council's Judgment
37
60

2 Surgical
2 ? (Do I actually need needle? I only use it agains miracles and dredge.. Sneak and show is on the decline I'm favor of OmniTell which it doesn't do anything against..Some time reanimator on grisel, maybe another teeg and canonist/Thalia is better or duress or hymn??)
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

sdematt
04-17-2015, 12:23 AM
You want Needle or Grip...or both.

Jain_Mor
04-17-2015, 02:03 AM
I reallly don't follow the reasoning on grip, I guess it hits top counter balance and omniscience.
Needle obviously doesn't stop omniscience, but grip still let's then cast one spell.. Needle does have random applications like dredge and lands. As well as jace.

I guess grip is also good against equipment, but I don't have enough cards to take out in those matchups, I usually take out 2-3 IoKs for a number of deluges and deeds.

Could you sell me on it briefly Matt? I guess 2 needles is fine, 1 needle and 1 grip could be ok too.

Cheers guys/gals

Jain_Mor
04-17-2015, 10:17 AM
A couple of friends suggested cutting the second library for the 3rd liliana, magic is hard haha

sdematt
04-17-2015, 10:28 AM
I reallly don't follow the reasoning on grip, I guess it hits top counter balance and omniscience.
Needle obviously doesn't stop omniscience, but grip still let's then cast one spell.. Needle does have random applications like dredge and lands. As well as jace.

I guess grip is also good against equipment, but I don't have enough cards to take out in those matchups, I usually take out 2-3 IoKs for a number of deluges and deeds.

Could you sell me on it briefly Matt? I guess 2 needles is fine, 1 needle and 1 grip could be ok too.

Cheers guys/gals

Needle handles Jace, Griselbrand, Sneak, Top, etc. etc. Grip hits Top, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Omni, etc. etc. Both are good against Miracles. Needle is likely slightly better.

-Matt

sdematt
04-17-2015, 10:28 AM
Also, should I just add people on Facebook so they can just message me before a tournament and get an instant reply? :P

iamajellydonut
04-17-2015, 11:01 AM
Pithing Needle is just so generally useful that unless you specifically have a reason not to run it, you should always just insta-cram one into your sideboard. Though I don't feel like there's a need for a second unless you have a good enough reason like Reanimator and 12 Post do.

Krosan Grip is good, and if you can fit it, definitely do, but it's by no means mandatory. Just a very nice catch-all that's recommended so long as you can swing it unless you can tweak your deck to the point where it's unnecessary.

Sylvan Library, while necessary and fucking amazing, gets significantly worse with each copy you add because it doesn't play well in multiples and it doesn't have the "oomf" that was discussed earlier. The general preferred number is two. Some people play more. Some people can get away with less. I generally prefer two in any deck that doesn't have as good of consistency or card selection, but I wouldn't fault you for going to one.



Also, should I just add people on Facebook so they can just message me before a tournament and get an instant reply? :P

That's assuming that anyone would ever willingly befriend Canadian scum.

sdematt
04-17-2015, 01:05 PM
The daggers are real.

iamajellydonut
04-17-2015, 01:17 PM
Get bent, hippie.

sdematt
04-17-2015, 01:20 PM
Not sure if serious.

iamajellydonut
04-17-2015, 01:21 PM
I'm always serious when it comes to Canada.

sdematt
04-17-2015, 01:31 PM
Youre just jelly :p

Jain_Mor
04-17-2015, 06:00 PM
I'm British, and I know parents shouldn't pick favourites, but Canada still calls at christmas, so I'm on his side.

sdematt
04-17-2015, 06:06 PM
Were there any Friday trials?

-Matt

iamajellydonut
04-17-2015, 10:21 PM
Youre just jelly :p

Little known fact:
I'm actually composed entirely of meat.

Jain_Mor
04-18-2015, 07:32 AM
Lol, all our debates were irrelevant, I drew the shortest of straws, and lost to burn three times in a row.
So yea, that's the least fun I've ever had, and the worst I've ever done, at a tournament.

:/ The End

iamajellydonut
04-18-2015, 07:53 AM
Oh my God I'm so sorry. :(

Megadeus
04-18-2015, 11:09 AM
Lol, all our debates were irrelevant, I drew the shortest of straws, and lost to burn three times in a row.
So yea, that's the least fun I've ever had, and the worst I've ever done, at a tournament.

:/ The End

Wow. That is completely miserable. I would probably immediately sell all of my cards and buy heroine to cope

sdematt
04-18-2015, 11:52 AM
Wow. That is completely miserable. I would probably immediately sell all of my cards and buy heroine to cope

That happens, but don't get discouraged. That's a pretty big anomaly.

-Matt

iamajellydonut
04-18-2015, 12:49 PM
On the plus side, you're in fukken Japan and can just go out and live it up.

https://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=pttok01%5C897fm1c

"[04:11] (fante7) what the hell is Dan Bock on?
[04:12] (Tarren) Fante, a sightseeing tour of Tokyo at this point I'd say."

Warden
04-18-2015, 01:58 PM
Wow. That is completely miserable. I would probably immediately sell all of my cards and buy heroine to cope

Or a few nights with a set of twins. https://40.media.tumblr.com/4dd2778391e7cc46423b24ef0308b7d8/tumblr_motluxXhTA1r5pe9fo2_500.jpg

That's really unfortunate to see burn 3x in a row. The best draws don't even help too much (unless you can t1 IoK, turn 2 drop a threat they need to remove, t3 liliana + force discard). Scooze somewhere in the mix doesn't even help too much. Kruphix could have possibly bought time.

sdematt
04-18-2015, 02:28 PM
Or a few nights with a set of twins. https://40.media.tumblr.com/4dd2778391e7cc46423b24ef0308b7d8/tumblr_motluxXhTA1r5pe9fo2_500.jpg

That's really unfortunate to see burn 3x in a row. The best draws don't even help too much (unless you can t1 IoK, turn 2 drop a threat they need to remove, t3 liliana + force discard). Scooze somewhere in the mix doesn't even help too much. Kruphix could have possibly bought time.

I feel unless your opponent shits the bed and doesn't bolt SFM or something before Skull comes down, or you don't run 2-3 Timely in the board, it's very hard. I mean, sometimes you have to take your lumps. I mean, you wouldn't have liked to have seen three of any bad matchup, to be frank. What did the meta look like overall?

-Matt

sdematt
04-18-2015, 05:35 PM
Let us know what your final list was before you descend into the debauchery of Japan.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
04-18-2015, 09:17 PM
Haha, I live in Japan, and it's not as crazy as the movies :P

Here's what I registered:

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
23

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Library
2 Liliana
1 Council's Judgment
37
60

2 Surgical
2 Needle
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

Metagame wise, 60% burn 20% delver 20% merfolk.

Oh, you meant the actual metagame?
I have no idea haha, but I did hear of a lot of burn (I guess I should have expected that from a GP where people might just upgrade from modern) but also lots of delver.

Not sure if this is something that's taken off in the west, but with the delve cards printed (thanks wizards) grixis delver is popular, with tasigur and angler (that zombie fish 5/5) thing. They play pyro TNN (thanks wizards) as well.
So now we have RUG delver, BUG delver, Grixis and UWR running around.. That's a lot of delver variants. They also all play dig, except rug.

Tbh I would have probably been better off playing nic fit with rhino. So I guess that's what I'll play from here on (though no major tournaments to look forward to). That said I nearly won the GPT, facing a variety of decks (losing to Grixis delver) so the rock can't be that bad.

I guess it fundamentally doesn't have any nut draws, so I don't know. I'll stop rambling from my disillusioned state haha

ESG
04-19-2015, 02:16 AM
Haha, I live in Japan, and it's not as crazy as the movies :P

...

Metagame wise, 60% burn 20% delver 20% merfolk.

Oh, you meant the actual metagame?
I have no idea haha, but I did hear of a lot of burn (I guess I should have expected that from a GP where people might just upgrade from modern) but also lots of delver.

This deck is not a good choice if you expect a lot of Burn, but if you run an Enlightened Tutor sideboard, that opens up Circle of Protection: Red as a possibility. Just in case you want to get some revenge.

I also like Timely Reinforcements in builds that are heavy on Sylvan Library or Thoughtseize.

Jain_Mor
04-19-2015, 03:19 AM
I honestly have no idea what the metagame was, and I don't think I was going to expect more burn than a normal big event. I new there was a chance I would play it once, but it's also easily possible not to play it either. I was expecting g to play it 3 times.

So I do t think burn is really ever going to impact people's deck choices.

Jain_Mor
04-19-2015, 06:50 PM
Don't know if you've seen the top 8, but it's 32 brainstorm ;)

maharis
04-19-2015, 07:47 PM
Isn't Japan famous for being big on burn? I would've considered Kitchen Finks or Obstinate Baloth in the 75 if I were going to Kyoto.

Jain_Mor
04-19-2015, 09:06 PM
I'm not sure a kitchen finks or a baloth somewhere in your 75 quite illiviates the matchup to be worth it.

And no, in my experience playing legacy here for a year and half, I would say burn is no more popular than anywhere else.

maharis
04-19-2015, 09:27 PM
13th place in Providence

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83411

Tokugawa
04-19-2015, 11:38 PM
13th place in Providence

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83411

The name! “Abzan deathblade”, oh no...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-Deck-Deadguy-Ale-(B-w-Confidant)&p=876266&viewfull=1#post876266 :wink:

sdematt
04-19-2015, 11:47 PM
Maharis, was that you?

-Matt

maharis
04-20-2015, 02:24 AM
Unfortunately no, just nice to see the deck!

BTY
04-20-2015, 08:23 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82337

2nd at Providence

I_Hate_Counterspells
04-20-2015, 02:13 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82337

2nd at Providence

Huh? The link goes to Wilkin's deck at Syracuse. 2nd at Providence was 'Temur Delver'

Deck
1st Omni-Tell Adam Brennan
2nd Temur Delver Tanner Parente
3rd Miracles Christopher Stitson
4th Sneak & Show Jason Grigely
5th 12-Post Aaron Gazzaniga
6th Omni-Tell Daniel Hall
7th Death & Taxes Jake Bartlett
8th Omni-Tell Cory Abrams


Here's the link for Providence: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=45&t[T3]=3&start_date=2015-04-19&end_date=2015-04-19&state=RI&city=Providence&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks

sdematt
04-20-2015, 02:17 PM
He is commenting on the correct list but wrong event. That list is more Deadguy Ale, but still worth seeing that the same shells - deathrite, decay, sfm - are doing good work.

Notice how Omni put up a ton of results lately. Go go gadget Discard, Teeg, Grip, Surgical, Canonist, Display of Dominance, etc. Etc.

BTY
04-20-2015, 10:00 PM
Huh? The link goes to Wilkin's deck at Syracuse. 2nd at Providence was 'Temur Delver'

Deck
1st Omni-Tell Adam Brennan
2nd Temur Delver Tanner Parente
3rd Miracles Christopher Stitson
4th Sneak & Show Jason Grigely
5th 12-Post Aaron Gazzaniga
6th Omni-Tell Daniel Hall
7th Death & Taxes Jake Bartlett
8th Omni-Tell Cory Abrams


Here's the link for Providence: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=45&t[T3]=3&start_date=2015-04-19&end_date=2015-04-19&state=RI&city=Providence&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks

Ya sorry, that was my bad, SCG didn't have the providence lists up this morning and I wasn't reading.

sdematt
04-21-2015, 02:28 AM
It's all good.

We obviously know that the core is viable, it's just about tweaking numbers and some selections (Liliana yay or nay, GSZ yay or nay, Souls, etc.).

With an increase in Miracles, it's possible Display of Dominance may deserve a piece of the pie :P

Since I'd rather not study the kidney, let's talk about the 13th place list:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Spells (20)

1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rule of Law
1 Warmth
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Duress
1 Vindicate

I mean this in the nicest possible way, this person either lurks or posts here. That manabase is straight mine except for the 4th Wasteland over the Arbor and some small changes. Top is being played over Sylvan, and this build is running Hymn. I think we can agree this is the stacked aggro Junk variety, basically playing less manipulation and more like the true Mox Diamond Junk lists we saw around 2010/2011. Just play max good things and win. Council's might be better over Vindicate, but who knows if that's card availability or the thinking that double white is rough on the manabase (which it is). Hymn means you might also Sinkhole them, so pressuring the manabase more isn't necessarily a bad idea.

The sideboard is obviously a fucking mess of an E. Tutor board. I think I've made myself clear I'm not a fan of them anymore. I just prefer lots of high impact cards with multiple copies. I'm a big fan of even if things get countered that I'm not totally hooped.

Cage, Needle, Choke, and Deed all make perfect sense since we do generally see them as 2-3 of's in other sideboard. Crucible is suspect - what matchup are we bringing Crucible in? Are we trying to Wastelock someone? If that's the case, why are we not running Knights? Are we trying to grind other midrange matchups? If so, why not run Loam and Dredge to feed Deathrite and not die to Abrupt Decay?

I'm curious why Rule of Law isn't Canonist. Of course, the effects aren't 100% the same, but the manacost is relevant in those matchups. Warmth is great, but why this over COP Red? I mean, one comes in Summer, and one comes in Korean. As well, one prevents and one gains life, meaning one is shut off by Vortex.

Lastly, Wheel is interesting Dredge/Painter hate - why not just play Grip or something? Or another Needle?

The extra removal in the board seems interesting. There's another Decay, Disfigure, Vindicate, and Liliana - seems like a lot when the main point of your deck is to do all of these things anyway. Where's the Elves hate? How are you not losing to Pyromancer? I'm not opposed to more Jace answers, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering if you would want to pack removal maindeck.

As well, this seems weak to OmniTell. I guess you hope they don't have Leyline because your only answers are discard based? Brainstorm's a card, so I think having permanent based hate in conjunction with discard is where you'd want to be.

If I were to play this style:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze


Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Spells (23)

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate

Sideboard
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
1 Display of Dominance
2 Duress

Mr. Safety
04-21-2015, 12:52 PM
Firstly, I'm still on this deck because I love it. My deck is similar to the one above mentioned with slight changes. Secondly, I'm friends with both Christopher Stitson (3rd place playing miracles) and Cory Abrams (8th place with Omni-Tell.) Good old boys from Maine gettin' the job done.

DudeItsCorey
04-21-2015, 01:43 PM
There is a 1k legacy tournament this weekend and I plan on playing Junk Blade. I wrote up the following list and plan on playing in a local weekly tournament tonight to get in some games and do any tweaking. I expect a lot of Burn, Miracles and Show and Tell Decks. There is also a large amount of Shardless, Patriot/Grixis Delver in my Meta.

1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Containment Priest

Warden
04-21-2015, 11:10 PM
I'll just toss this idea out for everyone to think about. After thinking about Eli's UWR creation, Myth Realized may be interesting in a tweaked Junk list. You could run a larger spell package while keeping your threat count up. Discard and the vast amounts of removal all "grow" Myth. Dark confidant plays nice with it as well. The main question I have is whether Junk colors more or less 'work' to make Myth legacy playable akin to cantrips in the UWR shell. Your creature package could be 4 DRS, 4 Confidant, 4-6 flex, 3-4 Myth. Given how players currently assemble junk, you're looking at a card that plays well with Lingering, Liliana, removal, discard, and equipment. The downside is how shitty this card is as a topdeck/late drop. You need to play Myth and another spell to make it a 1/1 (or 5 mana to play it, pump once, and allow animation). Not sure how prohibitive/pipe-dreamy we're talking. Upside is a quick beater that gets better without you necessarily overextending.

This is a very rough idea but something I felt worthy of sharing. I'm still mulling over the Collective Company card as well.

sdematt
04-22-2015, 01:55 AM
It's an interesting thought. Does it replace, say, SFM? That clears up slots, for sure.

Creatures (13)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze


Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Spells (26)

1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
4 Myth Realized
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lingering Souls/Dredge Spell? More hand disruption?
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate

Tokugawa
04-22-2015, 09:25 AM
The sideboard is obviously a fucking mess of an E. Tutor board. I think I've made myself clear I'm not a fan of them anymore. I just prefer lots of high impact cards with multiple copies. I'm a big fan of even if things get countered that I'm not totally hooped.

Cage, Needle, Choke, and Deed all make perfect sense since we do generally see them as 2-3 of's in other sideboard. Crucible is suspect - what matchup are we bringing Crucible in? Are we trying to Wastelock someone? If that's the case, why are we not running Knights? Are we trying to grind other midrange matchups? If so, why not run Loam and Dredge to feed Deathrite and not die to Abrupt Decay?

I'm curious why Rule of Law isn't Canonist. Of course, the effects aren't 100% the same, but the manacost is relevant in those matchups. Warmth is great, but why this over COP Red? I mean, one comes in Summer, and one comes in Korean. As well, one prevents and one gains life, meaning one is shut off by Vortex.

Lastly, Wheel is interesting Dredge/Painter hate - why not just play Grip or something? Or another Needle?

The extra removal in the board seems interesting. There's another Decay, Disfigure, Vindicate, and Liliana - seems like a lot when the main point of your deck is to do all of these things anyway. Where's the Elves hate? How are you not losing to Pyromancer? I'm not opposed to more Jace answers, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering if you would want to pack removal maindeck.

As well, this seems weak to OmniTell. I guess you hope they don't have Leyline because your only answers are discard based? Brainstorm's a card, so I think having permanent based hate in conjunction with discard is where you'd want to be.


Agree. "Simply" spot removal and discard should not sleep in Junk sideboards. If they are bad in 60, they worse in 75.

Some deck has sideboard PtE...because all the removal they have MD are 4x Stp. Junk is not such deck.

Some deck has sideborad "3x Duress"...because they don't have access to White, and their hate cards suck. Junk is not such deck.

If more discards are needed in game2 againt combo decks, sculler may be better. At least it could give you some clock, and does not fuel their DtT.

sdematt
04-22-2015, 01:22 PM
I think sculler is fine, but you may want more turn 1 discard to lead into turn 2 hatebear. Thalia and Teeg are some of the best. I think if youre on the Hymn wagon, then Thalia seems fine because you ideally thalia on t2/hymn on t3. But, turn 1 interaction is important. Im mot sure Id run Hymn so Id have more targeted discard in the main, and those Duress slots could become Thalias.

maharis
04-22-2015, 04:59 PM
I've thought about Myth in BW, but never with G really because I think there are better threats once you play G.

However, there are lots of interesting things to think about:

1) Raven's Crime + Loam is obviously a nice way to chew up their hand, then safely attack with a big Myth. You can run an Entomb toolbox, Entomb triggers Myth, etc. Also Darkblast.

2) Lingering Souls triggers Myth twice, and provides a separate angle of attack. Without Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary + Gavony Township is a nice way to build up spirits as well while increasing threat density.

3) Cabal Therapy also does a good job of getting problem cards out of their hand while triggering twice if we use something like Dryad Arbor or Lingering Souls to do it.

4) Living Wish triggers Myth and finds the best creature to follow up Myth considering we're giving up a trigger. Of course it is generally slower than we would like but it does provide a trigger and toolbox. Blending a Myth strategy with a Marit Lage strategy can be nightmarish for opponents.

5) Sterling Grove, of course. Greater Auramancy in a deck with enchantment creatures and tutors might be hilarious.

6) Recurring Nightmare triggers it over and over. There are more than a few non-creature spells in BWG that return themselves to the hand for repeated casting/triggering, but they are mostly junk.

The advantage of adding G to a Myth deck is the ability to dig and explore existing synergies, I think grindy GY decks are the way to go. Mentor benefits from some of these things too like Retrace.

Jain_Mor
04-23-2015, 02:54 AM
Does anyone here have any experience with chrome mox?

My thoughts are that against fast combo and delver when we die we often have cards still in our hands, we didnt have time to use them or were resource famished.
With mox we can get an early mana advantage that then allows us to deploy our spells significantly faster ie let us keep up.
I'm also assuming we can recover from the card disadvantage reasonably well.
Against all the fair decks it gives us a huge tempo boost, turn 1 shaman and discard or turn 1 SFM etc

I suggest chrome mox because that mox can replace lands where as mox diamond needs even more of them, and Loam isn't something that I'm interested in (I think it's far too slow, especially main deck)

So has anyone tried it before, or have experience with other decks? I'll be testing it tonight but would like to pick your brains etc

sdematt
04-23-2015, 03:05 AM
I used to play it in Deadguy, and it was fine at the time, but that was also like 2007. The card does give you some explosiveness, for sure, at the sacrifice of the stuff in your hand. All artifact mana died in popularity when Deathrite was printed, generally because all the other cards were bad topdecks, and we're the deck that wants to go into the mid/late game, so we'll be seeing all of those dead mana sources coming up, over and over.

Now, against fast combo, they're likely fine since it you do land the hate piece, you're good. But, I feel like many times you just want consistency and DRS is the best, bar none. Against fast combo, I think going T1 discard into Turn 2 bear or Hymn is about the best we can do. I think if you're especially looking to poop on fast combo, try a combination of 1-CMC disruption, Teeg, Thalia, and possibly stuff like Mindbreak Trap or Orim's Chant. How the hell do they win when you Chant in response to tutor or something? Not sure they can.

-Matt

Jain_Mor
04-23-2015, 03:14 AM
I was thinking of using it in conjunction with shaman to make it more likely we get that fast mana growth.

i guess I'll try it and either fall in love or not and move on to nic fit again. Why can't I play both again? If wizards would just set the deck minimum to 80 cards...

sdematt
04-23-2015, 03:38 AM
I'd love to have the room to play Knight, Rhino, and Souls in the same deck, but alas...

-Matt

lambert101
04-29-2015, 04:58 PM
Hey all,

I wanted to know how this style of Junk balde/Rock seems? In theory crafting it seems to be strong. Against combo the removal comes out and the hate bears come in. Please let me know your thoughts on the list and board. Biggest areas of concern are the Dryad Arbor, Extripates, and Pithing Needls. I am debating this or Macerick as a non-blue legacy option.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor

Side Board: 15
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle

Richard Cheese
04-29-2015, 05:56 PM
I was thinking of using it in conjunction with shaman to make it more likely we get that fast mana growth.

i guess I'll try it and either fall in love or not and move on to nic fit again. Why can't I play both again? If wizards would just set the deck minimum to 80 cards...

Depending on your land count, you may want to look at Mox Diamond instead. It's got great synergy with DRS and Knight, and better at fixing because it makes all the colors, guaranteed.

I just re-read your OP, and I don't think running Chrome Mox is as easy as just swapping for lands, and 22-23 lands is probably fine for Diamond as a 1 or 2-of, especially alongside DRS.

sdematt
04-29-2015, 07:07 PM
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor

Side Board: 15
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle

This is similar to what I ran for ages, and it definitely has game. Lingering Souls is great attrition against Miracles, Delver, and Stoneblade decks but is poorly position against combo. Dryad Arbor has a ton of game against Miracles, so don't let it get you down. I'd say you may want to play more Needles, as it is a very good answer to Jace, Top, etc. I don't think you need Extirpate with containment Priest, unless you're planning on playing against 43 lands all day. I honestly don't like Liliana all that much right now, but that's just me. Perhaps try Scavenging Ooze somewhere in the 75. He's a real treat.

-Matt

Mr. Safety
04-29-2015, 09:06 PM
I agree with you Matt, liliana seems "meh" right now. I'm currently testing a much more tempo oriented list with more Scullers main, no lilianas main, and an additional sylvan library. And library...holy freakin' hot sauce is that card good. I can't give anything substantial for data but my win percentage when I resolve a library is significantly higher than when I don't draw/resolve it. Seriously debating a third.

Warden
04-29-2015, 09:57 PM
I agree with you Matt, liliana seems "meh" right now. I'm currently testing a much more tempo oriented list with more Scullers main, no lilianas main, and an additional sylvan library. And library...holy freakin' hot sauce is that card good. I can't give anything substantial for data but my win percentage when I resolve a library is significantly higher than when I don't draw/resolve it. Seriously debating a third.

Scullers are in a weird position. They either do a ton to disrupt actual "stuff" opponents run (ie; taking business non durdly cantrips) or die miserably soon after they hit the table. I think you'd need to run a therapy-sculler package to abuse you looking at their hand + flashback tricks with sculler for them to be useful.

I think a really underrated card for right now is Gatekeeper of Malakir. All the techy grixis and rouge decks that run him punish opponents for forgetting he's a card. In the opening turns and in topdeck wars, he's quality.

@Liliana: She has to fight terrible matchups right now. But again, Rock can adjust with maindeck sweepers that handle swarms. Liliana on a clean table is a bitch to stop.

sdematt
04-30-2015, 01:23 AM
I agree with you Matt, liliana seems "meh" right now. I'm currently testing a much more tempo oriented list with more Scullers main, no lilianas main, and an additional sylvan library. And library...holy freakin' hot sauce is that card good. I can't give anything substantial for data but my win percentage when I resolve a library is significantly higher than when I don't draw/resolve it. Seriously debating a third.

I'm glad you're seeing what I've been saying for....3+ years? :P

Liliana is straight garbage against Miracles and Omni. Don't tell me she's good because she maybe takes half their lands sometimes, alright? :P I was testing my "crush the fuck out of the meta" Jund list and I 10-1'd Miracles in pre and post sideboard games, all while bringing out Liliana and I didn't miss her at all. However, Choke was insane. Definitely going to get in on that, since I've got the Koreanz.

I think Gatekeeper suffers from similar problems. Sure he doesn't get Spell Pierced, but Liliana can get more than one sacrifice and does other stuff and doesn't die to plow. Sure it's better in different matchups, but Gatekeeper is likely better in DGA.

-Matt

Mr. Safety
04-30-2015, 09:47 AM
Scullers are in a weird position. They either do a ton to disrupt actual "stuff" opponents run (ie; taking business non durdly cantrips) or die miserably soon after they hit the table. I think you'd need to run a therapy-sculler package to abuse you looking at their hand + flashback tricks with sculler for them to be useful.

I think a really underrated card for right now is Gatekeeper of Malakir. All the techy grixis and rouge decks that run him punish opponents for forgetting he's a card. In the opening turns and in topdeck wars, he's quality.

@Liliana: She has to fight terrible matchups right now. But again, Rock can adjust with maindeck sweepers that handle swarms. Liliana on a clean table is a bitch to stop.

Removal spells that kill sculler are ones that don't kill bob, goyf, mystic, or deathrite. If someone is spending mana and cards to deal with a 2/2 disruption (that fits perfectly on curve) then its a great tempo boost. Exiling the card is also relevant for cards like loam and pfire. And its an artifact for goyf boosting. You'll have to try harder than that to convince me its a weird card. Fyi, I play 4 thoughtseize and 2 inquisition main alongside 3 sculler.

DudeItsCorey
04-30-2015, 12:22 PM
I'm glad you're seeing what I've been saying for....3+ years? :P

Liliana is straight garbage against Miracles and Omni. Don't tell me she's good because she maybe takes half their lands sometimes, alright? :P I was testing my "crush the fuck out of the meta" Jund list and I 10-1'd Miracles in pre and post sideboard games, all while bringing out Liliana and I didn't miss her at all. However, Choke was insane. Definitely going to get in on that, since I've got the Koreanz.

I think Gatekeeper suffers from similar problems. Sure he doesn't get Spell Pierced, but Liliana can get more than one sacrifice and does other stuff and doesn't die to plow. Sure it's better in different matchups, but Gatekeeper is likely better in DGA.

-Matt

I don't know what you're talking about, Liliana is amazing against miracles. To be honest, Shierkmaw is surprisingly really good. Better than Gatekeeper IMO (bbb is a little mana intensive). Even if you hard cast him, the fear is really relevant especially with a sword/jitte attached to him.

sdematt
04-30-2015, 12:26 PM
She's fine, she's not great. Ask any Miracles pilot. They play off the top of their deck. Nuking half their lands is rough for them, sure, but she doesn't beat a Jace nor Entreat.

I can ask Tomaz, Philipp, and Joe to see what they say but in all the times I've talked to them they're not "scared" of Liliana.

-Matt