[Deck] The Rock

[Seraphix]

Rough draft of what I'd probably try:

4x Deathrite
4x Bobby
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight

4x Thoughtseize
4x Plow
4x Decay
3x Hymn
2x Liliana
1x Vindicate
1x Library
1x Loam

24x land incl. Maze?

SB: 2x Duress
SB: 2x Containment Priest
SB: 2x Surgical
SB: 2x Canonist
SB: 1x Golgari Charm
SB: 2x Thalia
SB: 1x Pernicious Deed
SB: 1x Darkblast
SB: 1x Stony Silence
SB: 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant


I usually play either Hymn or a small GSZ package. Against Eldrazi specifically Hymn is probably better, but G. Teeg might not be terrible for shutting off their Chalices. I'm not super familiar with the various Eldrazi lists, but I imagine some also play other spells G. Teeg hits.

[T-101]

Is Sinkhole really a playable card, in today's Legacy?

Even pox decks have begun to cut it...

I'll admit it's been a loooong time since I've run Sinkhole. But it did seem like it could fit in the list I was responding too.

Vindicate isn't run all that much these days either, and when it is, it is 1 of. The list has 4 Vindicate, and specifically mentions putting Eldrazi squarely in the sights of a land destruction plan. If we're gonna do that, Sinkhole seems to support that plan.

[wizard_of_gore]

I'll admit it's been a loooong time since I've run Sinkhole. But it did seem like it could fit in the list I was responding too.

Vindicate isn't run all that much these days either, and when it is, it is 1 of. The list has 4 Vindicate, and specifically mentions putting Eldrazi squarely in the sights of a land destruction plan. If we're gonna do that, Sinkhole seems to support that plan.


Vindicate is here for primarily LD plan, but not necessarily. It's removal for any big permanent they have, and they have a lot of them ;) . In aspect of eldrazi, 4x Vindicate list has it's own advantages over any lightning bolt/abrupt decay deck, because of it's uncondition universality.

[tescrin]

Anyone else down on Liliana? I've finally come to start selling my other 3 copies as she just doesn't seem to be pulling her weight; and this is coming from someone who used her in the Cruise and DTT eras.

Mentor, Pyro, Lands, Miracles, Storm; she just feels perpetually mediocre. Even with PFire in my deck I haven't gotten a Lily-lock that mattered in a long time. I don't even think I've been killing creatures that matter. I get that she's a jack of all trades, but so is GSZ; but it's better at it I think. It's taken a few years of legacy; but I really have just found her to be depressingly "meh" compared to other cards in the last year. I've kept her as a hedge against all kinds of things, but it's really gotten to the point where she just doesn't seem to actually do anything.

I'll be experimenting with the previous list but:
-3 Oath, -3 Lily
+2 Pulse
+3 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Decay

[Richard Cheese]

Anyone else down on Liliana? I've finally come to start selling my other 3 copies as she just doesn't seem to be pulling her weight; and this is coming from someone who used her in the Cruise and DTT eras.

Mentor, Pyro, Lands, Miracles, Storm; she just feels perpetually mediocre. Even with PFire in my deck I haven't gotten a Lily-lock that mattered in a long time. I don't even think I've been killing creatures that matter. I get that she's a jack of all trades, but so is GSZ; but it's better at it I think. It's taken a few years of legacy; but I really have just found her to be depressingly "meh" compared to other cards in the last year. I've kept her as a hedge against all kinds of things, but it's really gotten to the point where she just doesn't seem to actually do anything.

I'll be experimenting with the previous list but:
-3 Oath, -3 Lily
+2 Pulse
+3 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Decay

I have not missed them in my version, for all the reasons you mentioned. Thalia and Teeg main are a much better defense against combo, and tokens.meta makes expensive and slow Edicts pretty bad. She also just took another price jump up to ~$110 recently. I'm thinking between Eternal Masters, Conspiracy 2, and a new FTV she's bound to see a reprint pretty soon.

[tescrin]

I have not missed them in my version, for all the reasons you mentioned. Thalia and Teeg main are a much better defense against combo, and tokens.meta makes expensive and slow Edicts pretty bad. She also just took another price jump up to ~$110 recently. I'm thinking between Eternal Masters, Conspiracy 2, and a new FTV she's bound to see a reprint pretty soon.

The reprint that could easily happen when they spoil Shadows or the others are what pushed me to finally have to decide. I locked an easy $150 profit or while forcing myself to brew without the (mediocre) crutch that she's been.

After toying with the list it opens up something pretty neat too: Two Suppression Field in the side.
With only DRS and Fetches in my deck to get hit by it, I can use it to sit on Miracles, Lands, and D&T. This is exciting as I feel my lands MU could really use some assistance; but I've only gotten a single test match (which as I reported, went badly.) Turning Mazes, Wastes, Ports, and Stages into garbage seems good. Anything that messes with Miracles I find entertaining, so that's fine too :p. Even with CB lock, having to spend 3 to lock my spell out could allow me to sneak in other spells or cause them to waste yet more mana on their turn fixing their draw again.

Since she got replaced by GB removal, I suspect that (while I've been beating miracles anyway) having 8 ways to kill counterbalance or equips will be handy.


It's a brave new world I tell ya.

[Nerubian]

I was trying to decide between Rock and Nic Fit strategies as a new legacy player. I'm mostly a modern player (Abzan Company/Abzan Midrange) - so the colour combination was able to transition out of. I figured that I wouldn't be buying the BUG lands anytime soon... So, I was looking at my favourite colours and accepting the weakness to combo. Here's what I'll be running with tonight and probably losing every match with.

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Spells:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Siege Rhino
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Walker:
3 Liliana of the Veil

Equip:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Painful Truths
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Zealous Persecution

My other thought (which I wouldn't be able to do tonight was adding bob back into the deck. So -1 Rhino, 1 Library, -1 Persecution, +3 Bob).
Any advice for a first time legacy player :)

[ironclad8690]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/anguishedunmaking.html

Sweet new card.

Anguished Unmaking

1WB

Instant

Exile target non-land permanent, you lose 3 life.

[jrsthethird]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/anguishedunmaking.html

Sweet new card.

Anguished Unmaking

1WB

Instant

Exile target non-land permanent, you lose 3 life.

Sweet old card:

Vindicate

[lavafrogg]

Anyone looking at the new delirium cards?

The 3cc discard spell could go a long way in wrecking face as well as the 1cc land search/creature search card.

Both of which require delirium if that can become a consistent hoop to jump through.

About my golf comment on the last page: I have been on Lilliana/lingering souls/stoneforge mystic and cabal therapy for quite some time and it is much more resilient and grindy than the tarmogoyf, and I have always been a huge fan of the big green guy. I cut him a while ago and never looked back.

[Tokugawa]

Anyone looking at the new delirium cards?

The 3cc discard spell could go a long way in wrecking face as well as the 1cc land search/creature search card.

Both of which require delirium if that can become a consistent hoop to jump through.

About my golf comment on the last page: I have been on Lilliana/lingering souls/stoneforge mystic and cabal therapy for quite some time and it is much more resilient and grindy than the tarmogoyf, and I have always been a huge fan of the big green guy. I cut him a while ago and never looked back.

2B Lobotomy is a much more stronger Lobotomy, but it is still a Lobotomy. Can't see any space of it in 75 of any decks. Especially against combo decks, player would have difficulty for sending instant and creature cards to GY, before crucial turn3.

[Tokugawa]

A Rock deck got 2nd in SCG classic Indianapolis.

And SCG did not name the deck correctly, again(do I really need to say "again"?).

[Scott]

A Rock deck got 2nd in SCG classic Indianapolis.

And SCG did not name the deck correctly, again(do I really need to say "again"?).

Named Abzan Maverick, and it doesn't have Green Sun's Zenith, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mother of Runes, Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze, or Gaddock Teeg, and has Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and Lingering Souls. Oof.

[tescrin]

If you guys could throw a list up, that'd be neat. I wouldn't be surprised if it starts placing a little better since Eldrazi should be a decent MU and should shove some of the blue decks around. The worst MU (IMO) is Storm and similar decks that aren't a fan of getting Chaliced under a massive clock; which is probably what helped this guy along a bit.

[Chatto]

If you guys could throw a list up, that'd be neat. I wouldn't be surprised if it starts placing a little better since Eldrazi should be a decent MU and should shove some of the blue decks around. The worst MU (IMO) is Storm and similar decks that aren't a fan of getting Chaliced under a massive clock; which is probably what helped this guy along a bit.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99984

[sdematt]

It's basically the SFM+Goyf+Souls build I've been pushing (as have others). It's got game. Good job, whoever you are.

-Matt

[Tokugawa]

It's basically the SFM+Goyf+Souls build I've been pushing (as have others). It's got game. Good job, whoever you are.

-Matt

Have you been pushing Rhino builds?:tongue::tongue::tongue:

[Hmmm_Really?]

A junk Rock deck (they called it Abzan Maverick but I don't see any GSZ's) placed second at Indy yesterday, Sunday March 20th:

Link to T8/16 decks (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=36&t[T3]=3&start_date=2016-03-20&end_date=2016-03-20&state=IN&city=Indianapolis&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Have you been pushing Rhino builds?:tongue::tongue::tongue:
I don't see a Rhino in the list. I see a knight, but no Rhino.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[sdematt]

I don't see a Rhino in the list. I see a knight, but no Rhino.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I push Rhino pretty hard in the other threads ;)

[sdematt]

At least now they're calling it Abzan Stoneblade:


Creatures (17)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Spells (19)

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Painful Truths
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Choke
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg

I don't think this list is doing anything crazy, and I love it. It's playing all the cards we all know and love, and doing well with it. I still like a singleton Zenith for the flex in grabbing Scooze or Goyf, and Teeg from the board. I've never been a huge Liliana fan, but otherwise, I like everything here. I'd play Therapy if you're playing Souls, but to each their own. Sideboard is a lot of bears against Combo, but obviously we can see that this list isn't designed to prey on Miracles - no Grips, fewer Libraries, fewer Needles. Overall, I'm surprised the Miracles list that won was what it was. Oh well. Nice second place finish! :cool:

[Nerubian]

I absolutely love this list. I'm on something similar - I use another Liliana personally though. I think she's a house. The only thing that disturbs me in this list is a lack of Hymn to Tourachs. I feel that we need as much discard as we can get to fight the unfair decks and going T1 Discard, T2 Wasteland/Hymn is sometimes our only avenue to beat the super fast combo decks.

But, all in all. I like playing the most efficient creatures in fair magic.

[Tokugawa]

~~
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Choke
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg

I don't think this list is doing anything crazy, and I love it. It's playing all the cards we all know and love, and doing well with it. I still like a singleton Zenith for the flex in grabbing Scooze or Goyf, and Teeg from the board. I've never been a huge Liliana fan, but otherwise, I like everything here. I'd play Therapy if you're playing Souls, but to each their own. Sideboard is a lot of bears against Combo, but obviously we can see that this list isn't designed to prey on Miracles - no Grips, fewer Libraries, fewer Needles. Overall, I'm surprised the Miracles list that won was what it was. Oh well. Nice second place finish! :cool:

According to the Champion's tournament report(here (http://www.iplaymtg.com/thread-203838-1-1.html), in Chinese), the Rock player made some obivous mistake(maybe too tired at 8:00pm) in the final. Which included forgot to active Liliana, forgot to wasteland, didn't equip a 0/1 Goyf for attacking.

What are the Lieges in SB for? Some anti-Eldrazi technique (like target StP to Reality Smasher, and put the Liege to battlefield)?

[Nerubian]

According to the Champion's tournament report(here (http://www.iplaymtg.com/thread-203838-1-1.html), in Chinese), the Rock player made some obivous mistake(maybe too tired at 8:00pm) in the final. Which included forgot to active Liliana, forgot to wasteland, didn't equip a 0/1 Goyf for attacking.

What are the Lieges in SB for? Some anti-Eldrazi technique (like target StP to Reality Smasher, and put the Liege to battlefield)?

If that's the case - I'm not sure why he doesn't run Loxodon Smiters. He doesn't get much out of the Anthem effects like Wilted Leaf does in modern. Smiter could be at least relevant due to cant be countered clause. Could be useful in beating Miracles in the face game 2.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Actually, he does get some value from liege via 3x Lingering Souls. Also, the bigger goyf is against Eldrazi, the better.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Drunken Rancor]

If that's the case - I'm not sure why he doesn't run Loxodon Smiters. He doesn't get much out of the Anthem effects like Wilted Leaf does in modern. Smiter could be at least relevant due to cant be countered clause. Could be useful in beating Miracles in the face game 2.

HI! I was the pilot of this deck at the Indy classic. Wilt – leaf was a card chosen to sure up the shardless matchup. In my testing online I felt I needed a threat that could not be abrupt decayed. Plus putting my lingering souls tokens out of golgari charm range is gravy on top. Obviously it matches up well against Lily and hymn as well. It's fine to bring him in the eldrazi matchup. It might be wrong in the sideboard of this stoneblade deck, but I've always been fond of the card. Sometimes it just gets people.

[NEELEY]

Hello all

First off great job by Jj Garlock for his 2nd place finish. Jj and I are great friends. We play the same deck most of the time(we usually play maverick), we also share our online collection and test junk strategies. I talked to Jj earlier last week and told him about my current build of junk/Rock including lingering souls and it was very good. He agreed and since he owned tarmogoyf he played our list on Sunday. I was able to come up with the same record playing maverick but my tie breakers were worst and it ended in 9th place😢. Shit happens. We live about 2 and 1/2 hours away from Indy and departed very early. So any mistakes that were made in the finals were due to fatigue. I let Jj know the deck was being discussed here and he may see any questions you might have.

[Drunken Rancor]

According to the Champion's tournament report(here (http://www.iplaymtg.com/thread-203838-1-1.html), in Chinese), the Rock player made some obivous mistake(maybe too tired at 8:00pm) in the final. Which included forgot to active Liliana, forgot to wasteland, didn't equip a 0/1 Goyf for attacking.

What are the Lieges in SB for? Some anti-Eldrazi technique (like target StP to Reality Smasher, and put the Liege to battlefield)?

Yup for sure. I miss played the finals in spectacular fashion. LOL I'm just going to chalk it up to a learning experience and get over it. My group drove up the morning of at 5 AM so it was definitely a long day.

The lieges are for shardless. They match-up well against Lily and hymn and cannot be abrupt decayed. Pumping souls is nice against golgari charm. That whole day I put it in the play twice from a Lily uptick. It was also somewhat of a hedge for eldrazi, yes.

[Tokugawa]

Yup for sure. I miss played the finals in spectacular fashion. LOL I'm just going to chalk it up to a learning experience and get over it. My group drove up the morning of at 5 AM so it was definitely a long day.

The lieges are for shardless. They match-up well against Lily and hymn and cannot be abrupt decayed. Pumping souls is nice against golgari charm. That whole day I put it in the play twice from a Lily uptick. It was also somewhat of a hedge for eldrazi, yes.

Reasonable to choose Liege over Smiter. Liege is out of the range of Decay, means it was very hard to remove by BUG decks.

[sdematt]

Rhino is also a relevant threat against Shardless - 4/5 Trampler ain't shabby with a helix ;)

[jrsthethird]

Rhino is also a relevant threat against Shardless - 4/5 Trampler ain't shabby with a helix ;)

This. Also blocks TKS pretty damn well. Also, Jace-bounce him every turn, thanks.

[Nerubian]

HI! I was the pilot of this deck at the Indy classic. Wilt – leaf was a card chosen to sure up the shardless matchup. In my testing online I felt I needed a threat that could not be abrupt decayed. Plus putting my lingering souls tokens out of golgari charm range is gravy on top. Obviously it matches up well against Lily and hymn as well. It's fine to bring him in the eldrazi matchup. It might be wrong in the sideboard of this stoneblade deck, but I've always been fond of the card. Sometimes it just gets people.

Congrats! How did you find your combo matchups with only 4 mainboard discard spells and no sideboard discard spells? Was there anything that under or over-performed that weekend?

[ironclad8690]

I lost to Jim Davis playing your list yesterday thanks to that Wilt-Leaf Liege. It is a really pain for Shardless to overcome. If anyone wants to see the match in action here (https://www.twitch.tv/jimdavismtg/v/55953088?t=58m31s) is a link to Jim's broadcast playing the deck.

[Nerubian]

I lost to Jim Davis playing your list yesterday thanks to that Wilt-Leaf Liege. It is a really pain for Shardless to overcome. If anyone wants to see the match in action here (https://www.twitch.tv/jimdavismtg/v/55953088?t=58m31s) is a link to Jim's broadcast playing the deck.

Sick! Thanks :)

[GreatWhale]

Sick! Thanks :)

I'm sleeving this list up too, I love how its not trying to do anything cute. I don't, however, own any Liliana's anymore, what would you recommend in those slots?

[sdematt]

I'm sleeving this list up too, I love how its not trying to do anything cute. I don't, however, own any Liliana's anymore, what would you recommend in those slots?

This:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf


Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Spells (19)

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Painful Truths
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Choke
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg

Literally just did: -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Liliana; +2 Cabal Therapy, +1 Sylvan Library

[Tokugawa]

With 0 copies of Liliana, cards like Concil's judgement would be helpful for dealing with threats(Tnn, mongoose, Mom,etc) which not in range of Stp/Decay.

Why not replace all-1cmc discards with mix of Seize/Hymn/Therapy ? Especially when eldrazis rising in meta.

[sdematt]

With 0 copies of Liliana, cards like Concil's judgement would be helpful for dealing with threats(Tnn, mongoose, Mom,etc) which not in range of Stp/Decay.

Why not replace all-1cmc discards with mix of Seize/Hymn/Therapy ? Especially when eldrazis rising in meta.

I'd be in for a 1-of Vindicate. Hitting lands can be a nice tempo play. Not sure how much TNN you have running around. SoFI is decent, and you have Souls to race, too.

[Tokugawa]

I'd be in for a 1-of Vindicate. Hitting lands can be a nice tempo play. Not sure how much TNN you have running around. SoFI is decent, and you have Souls to race, too.

All old players love Vindicate:eek::tongue::tongue:, are't they?

Do you and Wilkin Chau know with each other?

[Drunken Rancor]

Congrats! How did you find your combo matchups with only 4 mainboard discard spells and no sideboard discard spells? Was there anything that under or over-performed that weekend?

Luckily, I did not get matched up against storm at all that weekend. but too be fair, I thought storms numbers would be low due to the success of eldrazi. Thinking about adding cabal therapy with the souls to fuel it.

Souls was the best card this weekend. Shines in the fair match-ups.

Might make a bayou a scrubland.

also add a teeg to the board.

[sdematt]

Luckily, I did not get matched up against storm at all that weekend. but too be fair, I thought storms numbers would be low due to the success of eldrazi. Thinking about adding cabal therapy with the souls to fuel it.

Souls was the best card this weekend. Shines in the fair match-ups.

Might make a bayou a scrubland.

also add a teeg to the board.

3/2/2 is the dual split I've been using for a long, long time, and with 3 basics, it's almost perfect.

[Nerubian]

What are people's thoughts on Chains of Mephistopheles? I'm contemplating throwing my credit card at one. At least for the sideboard - but there are so many blue decks right now that it could even be a mainboard card. And, it doesn't hurt us too badly with Bobs.

[Sibelius]

What are people's thoughts on Chains of Mephistopheles? I'm contemplating throwing my credit card at one. At least for the sideboard - but there are so many blue decks right now that it could even be a mainboard card. And, it doesn't hurt us too badly with Bobs.

It doesn't hurt you at all. Bob puts cards in your hand and Chains replaces extra draws so there is no effect. Interestingly Chains didn't effect Dig either ;)

[Nerubian]

It doesn't hurt you at all. Bob puts cards in your hand and Chains replaces extra draws so there is no effect. Interestingly Chains didn't effect Dig either ;)

Oh, I know it doesn't hurt us because Bob isn't technically draw. I know it's a good sideboard card - but I wasn't clear in my question. I was wondering about people's thoughts on it mainboard, instead of a Painful Truths or normal draw spell. I think I'd rather mess with people's card advantage than get my own.

[Tokugawa]

It doesn't hurt you at all. Bob puts cards in your hand and Chains replaces extra draws so there is no effect. Interestingly Chains didn't effect Dig either ;)
Chains does not conflict with Bob, but it conflicts with Library(and SoFaI):frown:.

If you really really want that effect, you can playtest Spirit of labyrinth for 0.5% price first. It has clock of 3 power, and buff your Goyf if died.

Chains are more often used by decks which has no access to White mana at all(e.g. Jund).

[Hmmm_Really?]

I think I'd rather mess with people's card advantage than get my own.

It depends if your local field has a high proportion of decks with Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace, Elves or Enchantress. If so, then yes it will help to slow them down. But if you're only facing those decks for 1 in 3 matches, then perhaps you might want sideboard cards that work for the other 2 out 3 matches instead.

(Just don't cast it with your own Sylvan Library, otherwise things can get messy!)

[sdematt]

It depends if your local field has a high proportion of decks with Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace, Elves or Enchantress. If so, then yes it will help to slow them down. But if you're only facing those decks for 1 in 3 matches, then perhaps you might want sideboard cards that work for the other 2 out 3 matches instead.

(Just don't cast it with your own Sylvan Library, otherwise things can get messy!)

It's a cool card, but I'd rather just draw my own cards than nug theirs. Coming from someone who owns a few, I literally NEVER use them. Ever ever.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, chains is kind of like life from the loam in my opinion. It just completely shuts some decks down in the right circumstances, but against decks like Delver/Shardless I think you just want to remove their threats before worrying about turning anything else off, lest you be mauled by a child and his elemental friends and jeff goldblum or a frankenfish.

I do not think Chains is worth the shell out, save your credit cards. I do think the new instant speed Vindicate that I posted a couple pages back is worth a shot though. I have really been conflicted as far as Painful Truths goes in this deck too. It seems awesome but 3 mana is so much :(

I think Junk is the best deck in the meta right now, it is just a matter of finding the "right" build, that is to say the build that has game against:

1) Miracles
2) Edlrazi
3) Grixis Delver
4) Shardless
5) Lands
6) Storm
7) Elves/Show and Tell/Blade/Bant decks/Haufen

Someone can find the right combination, I know it. This color combination has ALL the answers to the meta.

[sdematt]

Yeah, chains is kind of like life from the loam in my opinion. It just completely shuts some decks down in the right circumstances, but against decks like Delver/Shardless I think you just want to remove their threats before worrying about turning anything else off, lest you be mauled by a child and his elemental friends and jeff goldblum or a frankenfish.

I do not think Chains is worth the shell out, save your credit cards. I do think the new instant speed Vindicate that I posted a couple pages back is worth a shot though. I have really been conflicted as far as Painful Truths goes in this deck too. It seems awesome but 3 mana is so much :(

I think Junk is the best deck in the meta right now, it is just a matter of finding the "right" build, that is to say the build that has game against:

1) Miracles
2) Edlrazi
3) Grixis Delver
4) Shardless
5) Lands
6) Storm
7) Elves/Show and Tell/Blade/Bant decks/Haufen

Someone can find the right combination, I know it. This color combination has ALL the answers to the meta.

I can push out lists if y'all can test. My problem? Handsome, wealthy army dentist just has zero time to grind games. #Humble

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I would like to know your opinion on Oath of Nissa, as in-depth as you care to go. I have top 4'ed a small local legacy win-a-box with it recently (month ago), and I have done well with it in modern, also.

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[Hmmm_Really?]

I can push out lists if y'all can test.

I'll test any list which has potential against my local field, similar to ironclad8690's list above....

1) Miracles
2) DnT (Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet)
3) All the Delvers (Grixis, BUG, RUG, Stormchase)
4) Shardless
5) Lands

[Diogo37]

I'll test any list which has potential against my local field, similar to ironclad8690's list above....

1) Miracles
2) DnT (Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet)
3) All the Delvers (Grixis, BUG, RUG, Stormchase)
4) Shardless
5) Lands

the meta here is very similar but +elves and Jund, I would test too.

[mike1987]

I would be keen in a list that as game against miracles, lands and delver.

[sdematt]

I would be keen in a list that as game against miracles, lands and delver.

Just got back. Ill post later :)

[tescrin]

I would like to know your opinion on Oath of Nissa, as in-depth as you care to go. I have top 4'ed a small local legacy win-a-box with it recently (month ago), and I have done well with it in modern, also.

I think it's alright. It gives you a lot of land consistency and it bottoms bad cards most of the time. I found it pumped Goyf in a reasonable number of games. My issue game with running a 4th color as an experiment, going deep, and then moving to blue decks for awhile.

IMO, I'd use Oath most of the time and be at 20 lands, (3-4 Wastelands, 8 Fetch, 3 Basics, 5-6 duals.) IME I almost pulled off this in 4-colors but with severe issues against D&T. I got rid of my Lilianas so I'd probably run:


-15-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

-6-
2 Equips
4 Oath of Nissa

-17-
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 BitterBlossom
3 ThoughtSeize
3 Hymn to Tourach

2-3 ? (Sylvan, Life from the Loam, Thoughtseize #4, Equip #3, you get the idea)

-20 lands-


This is partly because I really want to use Hymn some more again because I miss it.


I should say, Sylvan and Oath have no reason to compete with one another. Oath combines well with it (bottoms the garbage you're floating.)
EDIT: I just realized I probably have to change the Blossoms to dudes for Oath. not a big deal; just something to note.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree it's super with Sylvan Library for the reason you stated, I also have buffed goyf with it occasionally, and that is pretty strong. I've been playing Elspeth for the token generator as it's only 1x more mana than LSouls and plays well vs. Miracles. I still run a Lili occasionally, but the deck is good, and I also run top to help ensure value is there for the Oath.

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[sdematt]

I think Oath is okay. The second ability isn't hugely relevant, and for the first ability, I'd rather just have Sylvans, Truths, and Fetchlands. I want to draw LOTS of cards :P


1) Miracles
2) DnT (Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet)
3) All the Delvers (Grixis, BUG, RUG, Stormchase)
4) Shardless
5) Lands

This is pretty much my meta.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze - Split here is to be better against Snapcaster and better in the Shardless Game 1. With Zenith, you actually see it.
12

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy - You're running tokens, may as well.
5

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (but with recent metashifts, I could probably also be down with Jitte #2 or Feast and Famine, or War and Peace). You want pro-white Against Miracles, pro-black against Batterskull, pro-Blue against Jace, but SoLaS is the weakest Sword. War and Peace helps clock Miracles, but does less for Batterskull. Feast and Famine also isn't super...
3

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
7

1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls - Miracles and Shardless breaker, your anti-Liliana and Jace
1 Bitterblossom - anti Liliana and Jace that comes down a turn earlier, and Miracles can't remove it game 1.
9

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
22

With 3 slots left, you could throw in 3 Confidants, or I'm partial to 3 Siege Rhinos. Evasion is pretty decent, the lifeswing helps stabilize the midgame, and he's only susceptible to STP. He's not the biggest boy on the block, but he doesn't need to be when you also have fliers. Library and Truths help you keep up with Brainstorm decks, but I will admit that back in the day I was running 3 Library and 4 Confidant, and I really enjoyed it. I just think Confidant is a bit weak, but might be worth trying again. He's obviously nuts against Miracles, Shardless, etc., and he's a must kill, on site. Arbor gives you the ability to EOt fetch with Equipment in play after Terminus to do the nugging against Miracles.

Boards are obviously complicated. If you're looking first and foremost to nug Miracles all day long, you need Needles, Choke, Grip, Teeg, and walkers. It's a lot, but they're also applicable in other midrange matchups, as well as Storm (Teeg). Safekeeper is also a nice lock to have with Teeg.

With Delver, you can either board in sweepers/more removal, or stuff like Rhino. I'm a big fan of Engineered Explosives, but with the new flip card change, it's not quite as good at nuking Delvers.

For Lands, it depends. You can kind of beat the 20/20 with STP, but we don't have access to Moon, and Tsabo's Web is too narrow. I'd run Needles and shroud creatures to try and get there. Ooze is also a fucking nightmare for them.

Shardless is all about the grind. You need to keep up in cards, and since we have similar threats, you need tools against Jace and the Goyf war.

DnT is about winning the equipment war, saving your resources, and not dying to RIP. Sweepers are key.

So, something like this should keep everyone happy:

2 Pithing Needle - Lands, Miracles, etc.
2 Zealous Persecution - Swarm, Goyf wars, etc,
1 Toxic Deluge - Swarm
2 Gaddock Teeg - Combo and Miracles
1 Sylvan Safekeeper - Decay mirrors/protect Teeg
2 Krosan Grip - Miracles/MUD/etc.
1 Garruk Relentless - Miracles, Shardless
1 Sylvan Library/Choke - Miracles, Shardless, Delver
1 STP - Delver, Lands
2 Engineered Explosives - Delver, Miracles, etc.

A singleton Loam isn't a bad idea either, and easily replaces an EE or such.

Mileage may vary.

-Matt

[tescrin]

I think Oath is okay.

The second ability isn't hugely relevant, and for the first ability, I'd rather just have Sylvans, Truths, and Fetchlands. I want to draw LOTS of cards :P

But this has nothing to do with running Oath and everything to do with trimming mediocre cards that do similar things, like Blue decks do. They don't trim Brainstorm to fit Truths or Library. Certainly BS is usually better than Oath, but the point is that they're not card slots that are in competition with one another. Oath may mean you run 1 less land, 1 less removal, 2 less something; and that's it. The something can be critters you can now find easier and don't want to see 3 of (say SFM, or Sculler, Bob (who is great but much much worse in multiples.))

It's also about adding 1-drops so you participate in the game earlier rather than miss your drop 20-25% of the time (my composition goes from 77% to 88% just by turning 2-3 drops and lands into Oaths; and this is if you count Plow as a 1-drop which is unreliable. Otherwise it's going from 60%!!! to 77%)

The consistency on that end is huge. But the consistency in landing a brutal 2-drop while having ample lands to do it is also better.


TL;DR : you're looking at it from the wrong perspective because you're assuming you can't run other card-fixing cards in it's place. If you want to drop 3 Bobs and a land for Oaths, it will probably play better than dropping Sylvans/Truths for Oaths; and really consistency is (IMO) the whole point of Bob.

[sdematt]

But this has nothing to do with running Oath and everything to do with trimming mediocre cards that do similar things, like Blue decks do. They don't trim Brainstorm to fit Truths or Library. Certainly BS is usually better than Oath, but the point is that they're not card slots that are in competition with one another. Oath may mean you run 1 less land, 1 less removal, 2 less something; and that's it. The something can be critters you can now find easier and don't want to see 3 of (say SFM, or Sculler, Bob (who is great but much much worse in multiples.))

It's also about adding 1-drops so you participate in the game earlier rather than miss your drop 20-25% of the time (my composition goes from 77% to 88% just by turning 2-3 drops and lands into Oaths; and this is if you count Plow as a 1-drop which is unreliable. Otherwise it's going from 60%!!! to 77%)

The consistency on that end is huge. But the consistency in landing a brutal 2-drop while having ample lands to do it is also better.


TL;DR : you're looking at it from the wrong perspective because you're assuming you can't run other card-fixing cards in it's place. If you want to drop 3 Bobs and a land for Oaths, it will probably play better than dropping Sylvans/Truths for Oaths; and really consistency is (IMO) the whole point of Bob.

But I guess the question is, is it good enough? Have you tested otherwise to say it's amazing?

[tescrin]

But I guess the question is, is it good enough? Have you tested otherwise to say it's amazing?

I thought it was quite good. It doesn't *feel* really awesome, but neither does ponder or even brainstorm a lot of the time. They just allow you to do a thing. I noticed that my land drops and flooding were kept in check very well and when I dropped them from the 4c list I instantly had issues finding dudes, the right dude, or finding lands when I should.

A lot of this comes from the fact that it's a 1-drop, increasing the number of keepable hands, and the fact that even if you miss the thing you wanted, you cleared 3 cards (acting like a perfect Preordain, sometimes being better than Brainstorm or Ponder.)

I could easily see a list like the one you had (2 Truths, 2 Library) still have Oaths, simply because it makes your day easy. You may swap the GSZ and a couple sorceries to dudes; but it's not a huge problem to say "reduce the consistency" of losing GSZ, Arbor, a land, and a Souls to add 4 cards that just increase consistency (and a lot more of it, and at the earliest point in the game.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree with this sentiment. Next month I'll play this deck (my version) at my legacy win a box. I'll post my list for clarity later.

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[Tokugawa]

When evaluating a pseudo-drawing spell, players should focus on what card it can NOT keep, not only what it could keep.

Consider this fact: Ringleader is a MVP in goblins deck, while sylvan messenger could never be played by combo elves.

Why? Because ringleader sent dead vials to bottom. "Not drawing vials" is even more important and crucial than "drawing goblins", to a goblin player.

[Tokugawa]

Back to the topic of Junk decks:

Whether "typical" or "untypical" builds,it runs about 20 non-creature spells. Cards that oath cannot keep, is already more than Non-land cards it keep. If added the number(3-4) of Oath itself to the former part, well...you would be more often forced to pick 1 irrelevant land.

As a midrange deck, Junk often playing a defensive role. Under that circumstance, disrupt and removal may be more urgently needed, than your own creatures.

One day, when just sent a crucial Hymn/Decay/Stp to bottom, you will regret for replacing your loyal Library with such "psuedo Ponders".

[tescrin]

One day, when just sent a crucial Hymn/Decay/Stp to bottom, you will regret for replacing your loyal Library with such "psuedo Ponders".

That is no different than saying "one day, when you play a fetch and you see you had that crucial Plow/Hymn/Decay on top, you'll regret replacing your Duals with fetches."

It's a non-sequitor. Every card draw is random and missing a random card draw because you increased the consistency with a card that occasionally randomizes cards you didn't know about doesn't mean anything. There was a time I could have used a Nihil Spellbomb on a Storm Player in order to get a card draw even though it was holding him off of a win-con. I fetched as I did something else and saw Teeg on top of my library. It was the *right* play as a 1-in-50 chance (or maybe 1-in-8ish if I was running GSZs or other bears or something, don't remember) to *maybe* get something opposed to having something that was relevant *now* is not statistically relevant; it's statistically the wrong play regardless of anecdotal data points that would suggest otherwise.

Similarly, if you haven't played the card, and considered that you can adjust the deck a tiny bit to make it a little more likely to help you out; I think dissing on a draw spell is absurd. As someone who *did* use it, I'm saying it didn't screw me, it increased my consistency, and it reduced flooding and other nonsense. If you shove a plow to the bottom or you get your 1-in-20 wiff or whatever, it's much less bad than you think; because all those games where you kept a 1-lander and it found you a land by T2 or it found you your SFM/Goyf against the correct MU, or it pushed away a bunch of discard are great. Every game where you didn't have to mulligan because you have a 1-drop that fixes your life is a great selling point, and it comes up a lot more often than "dang I'm sure glad I had Land #21 in here."

Further, your anecdote is confirmation bias (fallacy #2 here) because you're not only not counting the times that it shoved away Plows against Storm but all the times it shoved away Discard in the late game against shardless. You're not counting all the times where 3 garbage spells/lands were in your way against Miracles. It's all random, and getting a card-for-a-card doesn't hurt you.

It could be that the card is not good enough; but your argument is basically "Brainstorm can be bad because what about those games where you don't draw a fetch!?" or "Ponder can be bad because what if one card is really good and two are total shit?!" Well.. it still drew you a card now, and made your hand more relevant, even if not by much. Most of the time the card is much more upside. The fact that it grows Goyf is also pretty relevant IME, where it outsizes Anglers, Smashers, and other dudes. Feel free to disagree or decide I'm an idiot; but I did run it for a good month or so and the main point I took away from it was what most people get when they run brainstorm/ponder: "it sure is nice not to have to mulligan for Lands all the time."


I mean; Matt's list, if we're fair; has just as much chance of drawing arbor as it does GSZing for it, if not more because GSZ is only good for arbor on rare occasion. *That* is a bad deck choice IMO; much worse than replacing the "may be useful" GSZ and the "Almost always garbage" Arbor for a couple of psuedo-ponders. If you can't agree on something that is basically tautologically true, we're at a permanent impasse.

[Tokugawa]

It could be that the card is not good enough; but your argument is basically "Brainstorm can be bad because what about those games where you don't draw a fetch!?" or "Ponder can be bad because what if one card is really good and two are total shit?!" Well.. it still drew you a card now, and made your hand more relevant, even if not by much. Most of the time the card is much more upside. The fact that it grows Goyf is also pretty relevant IME, where it outsizes Anglers, Smashers, and other dudes. Feel free to disagree or decide I'm an idiot; but I did run it for a good month or so and the main point I took away from it was what most people get when they run brainstorm/ponder: "it sure is nice not to have to mulligan for Lands all the time."




Mishra's Bauble.

Always draw you a card.

Buff Goyf immediately.

Give additional information.

Why not give it a chance?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'd play GSZ over Bauble. The Oaths are good with SFM, I've put a Batterskull on the bottom of my library and then immediately grabbed it with the SFM I got off that same oath.

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[jrsthethird]

I'm playing a Goyf-less list right now (budget) with the equipment package of Batterskull, Jitte, SOLAS and I'm loving it. I run SOFI online but because people on ebay are idiots, it never came. I've seen gotten refunded (but don't have money anymore for a new one), but I don't mind it. Obviously you don't always get a card from connecting, but the 3 life per turn (or protection) has been immensely helpful. And remember, a Spirit token with SOLAS can block Marit Lage all day.

[sdematt]

That is no different than saying "one day, when you play a fetch and you see you had that crucial Plow/Hymn/Decay on top, you'll regret replacing your Duals with fetches."

It's a non-sequitor. Every card draw is random and missing a random card draw because you increased the consistency with a card that occasionally randomizes cards you didn't know about doesn't mean anything. There was a time I could have used a Nihil Spellbomb on a Storm Player in order to get a card draw even though it was holding him off of a win-con. I fetched as I did something else and saw Teeg on top of my library. It was the *right* play as a 1-in-50 chance (or maybe 1-in-8ish if I was running GSZs or other bears or something, don't remember) to *maybe* get something opposed to having something that was relevant *now* is not statistically relevant; it's statistically the wrong play regardless of anecdotal data points that would suggest otherwise.

Similarly, if you haven't played the card, and considered that you can adjust the deck a tiny bit to make it a little more likely to help you out; I think dissing on a draw spell is absurd. As someone who *did* use it, I'm saying it didn't screw me, it increased my consistency, and it reduced flooding and other nonsense. If you shove a plow to the bottom or you get your 1-in-20 wiff or whatever, it's much less bad than you think; because all those games where you kept a 1-lander and it found you a land by T2 or it found you your SFM/Goyf against the correct MU, or it pushed away a bunch of discard are great. Every game where you didn't have to mulligan because you have a 1-drop that fixes your life is a great selling point, and it comes up a lot more often than "dang I'm sure glad I had Land #21 in here."

Further, your anecdote is confirmation bias (fallacy #2 here) because you're not only not counting the times that it shoved away Plows against Storm but all the times it shoved away Discard in the late game against shardless. You're not counting all the times where 3 garbage spells/lands were in your way against Miracles. It's all random, and getting a card-for-a-card doesn't hurt you.

It could be that the card is not good enough; but your argument is basically "Brainstorm can be bad because what about those games where you don't draw a fetch!?" or "Ponder can be bad because what if one card is really good and two are total shit?!" Well.. it still drew you a card now, and made your hand more relevant, even if not by much. Most of the time the card is much more upside. The fact that it grows Goyf is also pretty relevant IME, where it outsizes Anglers, Smashers, and other dudes. Feel free to disagree or decide I'm an idiot; but I did run it for a good month or so and the main point I took away from it was what most people get when they run brainstorm/ponder: "it sure is nice not to have to mulligan for Lands all the time."


I mean; Matt's list, if we're fair; has just as much chance of drawing arbor as it does GSZing for it, if not more because GSZ is only good for arbor on rare occasion. *That* is a bad deck choice IMO; much worse than replacing the "may be useful" GSZ and the "Almost always garbage" Arbor for a couple of psuedo-ponders. If you can't agree on something that is basically tautologically true, we're at a permanent impasse.

Woah woah woah, the Zenith is there not just for Arbor, but also as a Teeg, Goyf, Ooze, etc. Sure, it's not increasing chances a ton, but it still is. Oath is only finding things on the top of the deck. If Teeg is deep, well, then I guess you're fucked. It's a tutor, not a filter. I'd rather have slightly increased chance than not having it. I agree, I did play 3 GSZ a while back and I really enjoyed it, but the meta was different.

I think there are better cards and worse cards for sure, and better and worse ways to find them. The problem is, we're choosing the non-best ways to find them (non-Ponder/Brainstorm), so we're in a pretty wide boat of "is this almost good enough?" It isn't a bad thing, it's just where we are.

Please do feel free to test Oath more, I'd love to hear your feedback. Feel free to tweak lists I post. Feel free to do whatever, as long as we're trying things and (ideally) making progress towards better, more well-rounded builds. I prefer to play a list with more bullets and answers compared to a list playing similar to deadguy, because there are so many decks that are good enough in the meta to play. Realistically, we're trying disrupt, destroy, and remove opposing threats, and then land a guy and go to town. With the current removal suites however, and Snapcaster Mage, this is increasingly difficult. This is why we've switched to cards like Souls, walkers, Bitterblossom, and Sigarda - because they are more of a "land this threat, get the girl, win the game" sort of threats. It's why I've been playing Nic Fit more. You disrupt, then drop Sigarda and attack three or four times. I just wish we had a threat like that.

[Tokugawa]

A Junk player top4'ed in CFB event(92 players).

http://cfbgamecenter.wpengine.com/legacy-3k-top-16-lists/

[mg7]

Hi everybody,

I have been playing Junk deck for a while and I have always considered this deck as competitive, but not as a tournament deck.

I believe the main reasons is because Jund has more powerful sideboard cards and also some main card which can have a double effect and let the deck accelerate.

Jund decks can in fact use: Bloodbraid Elf, Red Elemental Blast, Punishing Fire, Ancient Grudge, Kolaghan's Command, etc.


Said that, I still keep playing my lovely Junk basing the strategy mainly on Liliana and Lingering: in fact Lingering is giving me the flying creature to equip and potentially can be selected to be discarded with Liliana.

Regarding Oath, I think is not as helpful as can be a Sylvan or a Sensei Top: in early game I do not feel the need of drawing cards but mainly I play the game around shaman/discard, Stone, lilly, Lingering.

I do not play Hymn at the moment as I prefer to lower the mana cost and see the opponent cards to plan the game ahead.

I write you here my actual list for your consideration, suggestion, and discussion:

Creatures (16):
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls

Discards (6):
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

Removals (8):
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

Planeswalker (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20):
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah

Equip (2):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Others (4):
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Esnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage

Hopefully some new green/ black/ white cards will be realease in the new expansions to boost our lovely Junk!

[Tokugawa]

Jund has many powerful maindeck cards, but they have a much more weaker sideboard armory than Junk.

Having no access to White is crucial.

[tescrin]

It's pretty interesting that Junk is coming into it's own due to Eldrazi's influence on the meta. I wholly agree with the above: White is a huge advantage for sideboarding against all forms of combo and the primary reason that I'm almost always in it.

Jund's issues (I think it's worse than Shardless and Junk) are that it's clunky, it's manabase is the worst out of the three (Grove), and it's removal is pretty mediocre. Pfire shines at times, but the strategy didn't age well with Pyro and Mentor coming into their own, Serra Avenger being a go-to for D&T to race TNN and being dead against 2/3rds of RUG or Grixis Delver's creatures.

On Hymn: I'm already turned off of it again. The BB is just a bit of a bear to manage T2 and 1-drop discard works a lot better with DRS or curving out:
T1 - 1-drop discard, T2 - Thing you just protected or is best based on information known
or
T1 - DRS, T2 - Discard + 2-drop.

Hymn wants to be casted as early as possible and the tempo delay of 2-mana instead of 1-mana is a big deal IMO.

[sdematt]

It's pretty interesting that Junk is coming into it's own due to Eldrazi's influence on the meta. I wholly agree with the above: White is a huge advantage for sideboarding against all forms of combo and the primary reason that I'm almost always in it.

Jund's issues (I think it's worse than Shardless and Junk) are that it's clunky, it's manabase is the worst out of the three (Grove), and it's removal is pretty mediocre. Pfire shines at times, but the strategy didn't age well with Pyro and Mentor coming into their own, Serra Avenger being a go-to for D&T to race TNN and being dead against 2/3rds of RUG or Grixis Delver's creatures.

On Hymn: I'm already turned off of it again. The BB is just a bit of a bear to manage T2 and 1-drop discard works a lot better with DRS or curving out:
T1 - 1-drop discard, T2 - Thing you just protected or is best based on information known
or
T1 - DRS, T2 - Discard + 2-drop.

Hymn wants to be casted as early as possible and the tempo delay of 2-mana instead of 1-mana is a big deal IMO.

Agreed.

Also, anyone running Souls should be running Cabal Therapy. Please and thanks, guys.

[Nerubian]

Agreed.

Also, anyone running Souls should be running Cabal Therapy. Please and thanks, guys.

I know that Souls/Therapy is good if you get both. Most decks that run Therapy have (in my opinion) an easier time flashing it back then Souls. Either through Veteran that's a 1 drop or Zombie Tokens via dredge. Therapy is a disgustingly good card - but is it flat out better than just running regular discard. It's a feel bad if you go T1 Therapy - miss and then t2 you have a SFM, DRS or Bob. You really aren't going to want to sac your dude.

[sdematt]

I know that Souls/Therapy is good if you get both. Most decks that run Therapy have (in my opinion) an easier time flashing it back then Souls. Either through Veteran that's a 1 drop or Zombie Tokens via dredge. Therapy is a disgustingly good card - but is it flat out better than just running regular discard. It's a feel bad if you go T1 Therapy - miss and then t2 you have a SFM, DRS or Bob. You really aren't going to want to sac your dude.

Have you just considered not missing? Plus youre only running 2-3. You are much more likely to have the Thoughtseize instead.

[rlesko]

When evaluating a pseudo-drawing spell, players should focus on what card it can NOT keep, not only what it could keep.

Consider this fact: Ringleader is a MVP in goblins deck, while sylvan messenger could never be played by combo elves.

Why? Because ringleader sent dead vials to bottom. "Not drawing vials" is even more important and crucial than "drawing goblins", to a goblin player.

Elves is a combo deck, goblins is not. Comparing sylvan messenger to ringleader is disingenuous.


Back to the topic of Junk decks:

Whether "typical" or "untypical" builds,it runs about 20 non-creature spells. Cards that oath cannot keep, is already more than Non-land cards it keep. If added the number(3-4) of Oath itself to the former part, well...you would be more often forced to pick 1 irrelevant land.

As a midrange deck, Junk often playing a defensive role. Under that circumstance, disrupt and removal may be more urgently needed, than your own creatures.

One day, when just sent a crucial Hymn/Decay/Stp to bottom, you will regret for replacing your loyal Library with such "psuedo Ponders".

Or, don't cast Oath of Nissa if you need a removal spell? Additionally, if you're dedicated to running oath, you can make some deck building changes to support it better (Shriekmaw/Tidehollow Sculler/Pridemage instead of the spells). Its a little slower obviously but probably worth experimenting with.

Also, pretty sure someone said earlier that you don't have to run one instead of the other, they can be played together. Thats like saying "No room for ponders in this deck, already running brainstorm".

[lavafrogg]

After being asked for my current list and going 4-1 last week at a local I decided to post.

Creatures (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Spells(21)
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Painful Truths


Equipment(3)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of (Meta Call)

Land (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary

I know how this forum loves to post and destroy random BGW lists.

[tescrin]

I know that Souls/Therapy is good if you get both. Most decks that run Therapy have (in my opinion) an easier time flashing it back then Souls. Either through Veteran that's a 1 drop or Zombie Tokens via dredge. Therapy is a disgustingly good card - but is it flat out better than just running regular discard. It's a feel bad if you go T1 Therapy - miss and then t2 you have a SFM, DRS or Bob. You really aren't going to want to sac your dude.

Things like SFM are still fine for Therapy. They gained CA and you presumably are doing this because you saw multiples of a card in their hand (CA) or you're going to lose. Either way, flashing it back then seems fine because you were going to lose or are moving a plan forward.

Similar to Brainstorm, don't consider Therapy an actual 1-drop because you're unlikely to know what to call until T2 (based on lands and spells played.) If you've scouted you may use it T1 or if you're *really good*/desperate. But just because it's CMC-1 doesn't mean you need to play it ASAP to get use from it.

Lastly, it's usually a great way to nail equips and being 2-cards in one is useful. It's also one of those interesting things that you can name a card and guarantee they don't have it. Hate Thalia? Doesn't matter if they have two. Worried about Counterbalance? You can know they don't have it regardless.

[maharis]

Very similar to what I like to run, Lava, nice list. What were your matchups? I see you are in AZ, have you had success in the big events there?

I used to run Courser of Kruphix + 2 SDT/2 Sylvan as an engine -- CoK is basically a GSZable Dark Confidant if you have one of those going -- but I have been wondering myself if Painful Truths is just better. 3 seems like a pretty hearty endorsement.

[sdematt]

Truths is currently in any deck I run with black. Grisix Control, Jund, Junk, Nic Fit, Bug Control amd others.

[maharis]

Truths is currently in any deck I run with black. Grisix Control, Jund, Junk, Nic Fit, Bug Control amd others.

I agree that the card is awesome. It's just a question of the right number. It's still a three mana sorcery which means that the payoff is likely coming the next turn. You basically have to balance its utility with the utility of cheaper, but more passive and incremental, CA/CQ engines like Sylvan, SDT, Bob, Courser, Oath.

[lavafrogg]

Truths is currently in any deck I run with black. Grisix Control, Jund, Junk, Nic Fit, Bug Control amd others.

I run truths as a more immediate/duplicate sylvan library. I think we almost have the oils to go toe to toe with the big blue menace.

[Finn]

Anthony, you just love to pay life.

[lavafrogg]

Anthony, you just love to pay life.

The only life that matters is the last point!

Don't make me get my tombstalkers and confidants out again....

[Finn]

I entirely agree. Has Painful Truths been mostly upside for you?

[iamajellydonut]

The only life that matters is the last point!

Don't make me get my tombstalkers and confidants out again....

That's the spirit!

I'm running a build with Tombstalkers and Confidants right now. It gets a lot of laughs whenever I hit a Tombstalker with Bob, but then Tombstalker hits them and the games tend to end rather quickly afterwards.

[sdematt]

I entirely agree. Has Painful Truths been mostly upside for you?

All upside.

[pandaman]

Matt, in your ideal list on the last page am I correct in observing you've left out Batterskull? I see the reason for that is the Lingering Souls plan. How has your testing been sans the ultimate living weapon? Because I kind of like the thought of Sword of Fire and Ice (anti-Grixis) and Sword of Feast and Famine (anti-BUG) mainboard alongside Umezawa's Jitte.

[sdematt]

Matt, in your ideal list on the last page am I correct in observing you've left out Batterskull? I see the reason for that is the Lingering Souls plan. How has your testing been sans the ultimate living weapon? Because I kind of like the thought of Sword of Fire and Ice (anti-Grixis) and Sword of Feast and Famine (anti-BUG) mainboard alongside Umezawa's Jitte.

Correct. Batterskull is a great tool, but is MUCH, much better in blue equipment decks because of the ability to Brainstorm it away. In non-blue, if they nuke your SFM, you've got this stranded piece of equipment that can easily get grabbed out of your hand, Dazed, etc. I'd much rather have another Sword which can be cast the next turn and Equipped soon after.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I entirely agree. Has Painful Truths been mostly upside for you?

I cast it for 1, 2 or 3 all the time depending on board state and life gain available. Truths is much less dangerous than bob/stalker in that the life management options are much better now. Deathrite shaman, jitte, batterskull, sword of light and shadow all make life gain available to pay life for truths and library.

[tescrin]

Matt, in your ideal list on the last page am I correct in observing you've left out Batterskull? I see the reason for that is the Lingering Souls plan. How has your testing been sans the ultimate living weapon? Because I kind of like the thought of Sword of Fire and Ice (anti-Grixis) and Sword of Feast and Famine (anti-BUG) mainboard alongside Umezawa's Jitte.

D&T runs it because they're using Vial; which means your opponent has an instant speed window in a large subset of games where they can kill the SFM.
DGA runs it a bit, but it has a heavy amount of targeted discard and disruption and they lack a true beater; so they need it to fill the "beater" role. I wouldn't fault them for not running it though.

And blue has been talked about. I'll point that Maverick doesn't run BSK either; for the same reasons. They have a beater already, they don't have a copious amount of hand disruption, and they can't get rid of the BSK.

Typically our deck isn't running Mom, Sculler, or tons of T1 discard; because the point of this style deck is that rather than hope for a good mix of cards, they're all just brutal cards.

Devil's Advocate
That said, I'd be fine with trying BSK as a good way to make SFM must-answer before you spend another 4-5 mana. That's one of my biggest complaints about the card in this deck is that no one bothers killing it until you're 6+ mana in, in which case they'll probably kill the equip. With BSK it's CDA if they kill the token and they usually can't kill the skull; all for 4 mana (and usually only for 2, because they have to kill her before she drops it to prevent annoyance), which is a lot easier to swallow. Skull *does* cover a couple of bad MUs; like Belcher/Storm going warrens (if you go first they need 14 T1 assuming you don't have a Drs), is properly annoying for Miracles, and deals with token-spam of an opponent to a good degree by stalling the match out.

If you want your T2 SFM to be a target your Opp needs to address or are worried about the above, run the Skull I think. You may have weird turns though where you want to +1 Lily but have to ditch your equip. It also is basically like a mulligan'd hand when you draw it.

[lavafrogg]

D&T runs it because they're using Vial; which means your opponent has an instant speed window in a large subset of games where they can kill the SFM.
DGA runs it a bit, but it has a heavy amount of targeted discard and disruption and they lack a true beater; so they need it to fill the "beater" role. I wouldn't fault them for not running it though.

And blue has been talked about. I'll point that Maverick doesn't run BSK either; for the same reasons. They have a beater already, they don't have a copious amount of hand disruption, and they can't get rid of the BSK.

Typically our deck isn't running Mom, Sculler, or tons of T1 discard; because the point of this style deck is that rather than hope for a good mix of cards, they're all just brutal cards.

Devil's Advocate
That said, I'd be fine with trying BSK as a good way to make SFM must-answer before you spend another 4-5 mana. That's one of my biggest complaints about the card in this deck is that no one bothers killing it until you're 6+ mana in, in which case they'll probably kill the equip. With BSK it's CDA if they kill the token and they usually can't kill the skull; all for 4 mana (and usually only for 2, because they have to kill her before she drops it to prevent annoyance), which is a lot easier to swallow. Skull *does* cover a couple of bad MUs; like Belcher/Storm going warrens (if you go first they need 14 T1 assuming you don't have a Drs), is properly annoying for Miracles, and deals with token-spam of an opponent to a good degree by stalling the match out.

If you want your T2 SFM to be a target your Opp needs to address or are worried about the above, run the Skull I think. You may have weird turns though where you want to +1 Lily but have to ditch your equip. It also is basically like a mulligan'd hand when you draw it.

I had a lot of success in maverick with a jitte and 2 sword approach but we are able to slow the game down a little more than maverick and the recurring threat of batterskull is super useful in adding inevitability to our endgame.

[pandaman]

Would you board your Krosan Grips against D&T? I did and it won me G2 where he connected with a Jitte and then passed the turn without nugging any of my creatures. I KGripped it, then in my turn Decayed his Leonin Relic-Warder, got my own Jitte back, and suited up a Lingering Souls token. It was really clutch, and my D&T opponent, likely one of the best D&T player in Australia, said it's an excellent card and he hates seeing it. I have two in the board against Miracles, so they're available?

[lavafrogg]

Would you board your Krosan Grips against D&T? I did and it won me G2 where he connected with a Jitte and then passed the turn without nugging any of my creatures. I KGripped it, then in my turn Decayed his Leonin Relic-Warder, got my own Jitte back, and suited up a Lingering Souls token. It was really clutch, and my D&T opponent, likely one of the best D&T player in Australia, said it's an excellent card and he hates seeing it. I have two in the board against Miracles, so they're available?

As the last person to post a list I am going to assume that you are asking me about grips against Death and Taxes.

My experience against Death and Taxes is that if I can establish a mana base through their disruption then I win. Anything that can buy me more time or helps with mana comes in. For me that would be the extra swords to plowshares, the toxic deluges and the life from the loam. Most equipment can be decayed, sans batterskull, so I don't feel like the grips are worth bringing in.

[Aquamaniac]

Has anyone here messed around with a Junk Mentor list? Search isn't finding anything for me. I assume it's just too cute to function with a lack cantrips and counters, but am still interested in messing around with it potentially.

[GreatWhale]

Has anyone here messed around with a Junk Mentor list? Search isn't finding anything for me. I assume it's just too cute to function with a lack cantrips and counters, but am still interested in messing around with it potentially.

I was looking for one last night and was unsuccessful, I can post what I sleeved up but its untested and probably bad, so I'll save myself the embarrassment.

The problem I foresee is that you want tops to combo with an active mentor, but those cut into the slots I want to run Sylvan Library and Painful Truths, which seem to be better in Junk than top. And also do you want to run SFM? Equipment and Mentor don't synergize very well, but it might work in that if you have an active mentor you don't need equipment or if you have an active equipment you don't need mentor. So you start moving to Esper, but Esper Mentor has its own thread and I don't think its that great, so then the next lane change you are in Miracles which seems to be the best Mentor deck. But I want to run Deathrite+Abrupt Decay and don't want to run Counterbalance.

[maharis]

Has anyone here messed around with a Junk Mentor list? Search isn't finding anything for me. I assume it's just too cute to function with a lack cantrips and counters, but am still interested in messing around with it potentially.

In Canada, you get to see it all.

http://manadeprived.com/abzan-mentor-legacy/

Not my first choice of direction with the deck but very interesting. IMO Ravens Crime/Loam would be sick with Mentor but that's a real different deck.

[sdematt]

In Canada, you get to see it all.

http://manadeprived.com/abzan-mentor-legacy/

Not my first choice of direction with the deck but very interesting. IMO Ravens Crime/Loam would be sick with Mentor but that's a real different deck.

In Canada, you do get to see it all. I'm going to start an Instagram account where it's just pictures of landscapes and my cars. I'm sure Brooklyn is nice, but Vancouver is prettyyyyyyyyyy

Or did you mean Magic wise? ;)

[iamajellydonut]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

[GreatWhale]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

Siege Rhino

[jrsthethird]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

Retribution of the Meek?

[tescrin]

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

They are weak in the knees to Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, and similar. You can prepare for this by running some form of Token producers (which are also fine against them.. ish) so that you can swing. Flying tokens attack every turn, use your cards, and they're stuck looking for bridge-removal.

IMO, if doing this you can curve out easily with Bitterblossom without going into White. If you want to use Souls, then just use em. Point is, Bridge is very real (especially in a Liliana deck.)

If you run a loam or two in the side next to 4xWasteland you can just get 'em that way too. Decks like that, IME, just fold if you open with DRS; Waste+Loam T2.

[maharis]

In Canada, you do get to see it all. I'm going to start an Instagram account where it's just pictures of landscapes and my cars. I'm sure Brooklyn is nice, but Vancouver is prettyyyyyyyyyy

Or did you mean Magic wise? ;)

I love Canada. Actually, planning to move out west this summer, so looking forward to seeing more of it than Toronto and Montreal. My wife is bugging me to get to BC in particular.

The reference, though, was to one of your national heroes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHO8xAe-FKs

[Tokugawa]

One of the most effective tactics against Eldrazi, is : Kill fatty, kill fatties, kill more fatties.

When you have "Kill it!" in your armory, why choose "let it don't attack" over that? And cards like Moon or Moat also hurt yourself, painfully.

There are some unpopular tools, which could go through multiple locking pieces of Eldrazi, like Shriekmaw, Biggame hunter,etc.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Because drawing as much removal as they have creatures is a lucksack idea in Abzan? Honestly; bridge. Use them. Use 4 of them.

[tescrin]

One of the most effective tactics against Eldrazi, is : Kill fatty, kill fatties, kill more fatties.

When you have "Kill it!" in your armory, why choose "let it don't attack" over that? And cards like Moon or Moat also hurt yourself, painfully.

There are some unpopular tools, which could go through multiple locking pieces of Eldrazi, like Shriekmaw, Biggame hunter,etc.

Because you can win the match with *a single card* rather than hoping to draw enough fat/removal.
He clearly is running Goyf, Lily, and maybe even plow; so he's looking for a card that stops them. I named a 1-card, tutorable solution. You claim winning with, again, a single card as inefficient. He can even win at that point with just DRS.

You don't attack dredge by running 30x Plow Variants, you beat them with cage. You don't beat Elves with 30x Removal, you win with Cage/Teeg/Priest and some discard/counters. Let's be real here

[ironclad8690]

Glissa, the Traitor does a good job at holding them off.

[Tokugawa]

If a player really thirst the sweety taste of "cast 1 card and win", he could already picked some...er, Show and Tell decks. Not this, fair deck of all fair decks.

Moat does not ensure a victory or something close to that. Eldrazi would grab every copies of Endbringer/Displacer after sideboarding, which could shut down 1/1 flying tokens. If our DRS cannot survive, time would be very hard.

After saw DRS and Goyf, Eldrazi may also side in Rip/Leyline for GY hate. Not usually, but possible.

Bridge may be OK.

[Aquamaniac]

In Canada, you get to see it all.

http://manadeprived.com/abzan-mentor-legacy/

Not my first choice of direction with the deck but very interesting. IMO Ravens Crime/Loam would be sick with Mentor but that's a real different deck.


Yeah, that list was not impressive. I can't justify running less than 4 Cabal Therapy in a list that can abuse the heck out of Therapy. Loam Mentor might be a possibility, I'll mess around with it. Raven's, Loam, Crop Rotation, maybe go 4c for Punishing Fire. Who knows. The Mentor list we're currently tuning is NOT Junk, rather RBW, but Junk is definitely what I prefer to play.

[iamajellydonut]

Retribution of the Meek?

aaaah how I wish this were an instant.

[tescrin]

If a player really thirst the sweety taste of "cast 1 card and win", he could already picked some...er, Show and Tell decks. Not this, fair deck of all fair decks.

We're talking about sideboard strategies. Sideboarding in removal #13 isn't as good IMO as sideboarding a thing that stops them cold. The fact that it's super useful for Reanimator, S&T, and random other decks (Big Red, Lands, 12-Post) and is colorless; I just don't see how you can get much better.

Yeah.. they could find their 7-drop if they're in Green and kill your bridge, but that's what the game is. By all means, if you run a Shiekmaw for Delver or Dismember or similar, go crazy. My only point is that he wants a card that stops them cold, but doesn't want WW. If he was fine with WW, Humility is pretty good; if a turn slower, and they won't be able to do anything about it unless they run actual destroy-spells.

My side is usually something like:

2 Tutor
1 Bridge
1 E. Plague
1 (other sweeper, usually EE)
1 Cage
1 Rip
2 Priest
2 Canonist
4 ? <depends on my deck, the meta, etc..

so if it's Eldrazi, well. I'll probably do 1 tutor, 1 Bridge, and whatever is applicable in the "?" area. Possibly the Plague since it kills mimics and brings their dudes down to a more Goyf/BSK-able size.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone looked at/tried the gilrog monster? Seems pretty dumb if he lives.

[tescrin]

Has anyone looked at/tried the gilrog monster? Seems pretty dumb if he lives.

My opinion is that there's nothing he does that Titania doesn't do better. She gets you a land immediately, gets you ~1-2 5/3s immediately, etc..
Certainly she's easier to kill because of Bolt, but that's the only other legacy removal that applies. IMO, instant-speed 5/3s *now* is better than drawing cards later.

Titania gets you, essentially, +2 cards the second it lands and will often swing for lethal the next turn.

[sdematt]

My opinion is that there's nothing he does that Titania doesn't do better. She gets you a land immediately, gets you ~1-2 5/3s immediately, etc..
Certainly she's easier to kill because of Bolt, but that's the only other legacy removal that applies. IMO, instant-speed 5/3s *now* is better than drawing cards later.

Titania gets you, essentially, +2 cards the second it lands and will often swing for lethal the next turn.

Agreed, unless you need the P/T or are playing a Loam variant. Assault, Gitrog and Loam. Fuck me sideways.

[mg7]

Hi Guys,

I wanted to share some little considerations with you all after trying out some changes in the previous deck list.

* Cabal Therapy.
I was advised to run at least a couple of cabal since I run lingering. My honest feedback is that even with 4 seize and 2 cabal, the games I lost against show & tell and other combos because I had in my hand Cabal at first turn instead of kozilek or Duress are relevant.
I therefore decided to go back to old configuration running 4 seize, 1 kozi and 1 duress. (1 additional duress or cabal in sideboard)

* Regarding draw engine, I always thought 4 dark confidents were to heavy in this desk and causing to much damage, however I tryed to re-inserting them after the 4th place deck, and at the moment the 3 confident configuration with 2 sensei and 1 sylvan works pretty well.
In this way I exclude also painfull truths because playing 3 confidants and 4 stoneforge means giving opponent high pressure.

* For Eldarzy, running 2 vindicate in main with 1 bridge in side helps, but I still need more trails to define if 1 bridge is enough. ( I also run 4th decay in side and 1 toxic deluge)

* I tried to run bitterblossom, but I find it a bit slow to be efficient, therefore went back to run 3 lingering and 3 lilly.

* In side I find very beneficial 1 reclamation sage along with playing 1 zenit in main deck.

That's all for the moment!

Bye!:wink:

[tescrin]

@Cabal
It happens. It's a skill intensive card and sometimes it's amazing where other discard would be terrible (for instance, against 2x-game ending threat card.) I used to like IoK a lot, but eventually it'll start costing you games because it can't get Sneak, Ad Nausium, BSK, or similar. Cabal hitting twice is also hate-density which is nice.

@Bob
Yeah, 3 can be fine. 4 means you'll see too many sometimes, but you'll see him another 25% of the games you wouldn't have or so. He's a consistency card but you can be anywhere from 0-4 honestly since he gets killed by anything/everything and does that consistently.

@Blossom
I'm still a huge fan. I don't mind the slowness in some sense; but you have to treat it differently than Souls. Blossom gives you 3-more mana to play with, and your 3-drop slots back. Lingering Souls is a good top-deck. Blossom is a good T2 play. Lingering Souls is weak to grave hate and Thalia, Blossom is terrible in multiples or if you're behind on board.

@Bridge
Even if you only have a couple of Artifacts/Enchants in the side; if you want a second bridge, get an E-Tutor. I really can't recommend it enough. It's, again, a bit of a skill card as even when it *can* be used in an MU; you don't always want it. But.. instant-speed draw fixer that plays against Storm, Dredge, S&T, Reanimator, Elves, and others; all in a single slot? IMO you have to be crazy to be in white without at a copy.


To each their own, just elaborating on your issues.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I played Junk to a 3-1-1 finish today at the legacy side event. I will post a decklist later this week, currently getting drunk, so...wait for it.

[Faust]

Hey everyone. Relatively new Legacy player here. Decided to pick up Rock as my main deck for the foreseeable future (including GP Columbus). I really like Swords and Tarmogoyf and I don't want to dump 1-2k on blue support, so here I am.

Anyway, I took the deck to the SCG Classic yesterday and did...poorly. Ended up 3-2-2, and I'll talk about my matchups here soon. First, here's my list:

MAIN DECK
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
1 Painful Truths
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction

I saw the list top a classic a few weeks back and decided to move into it from Jund. The main deck is almost totally the same as that one as I didn't feel experienced enough to be making meta calls or any other kind of changes. Sideboard is a mix of the stuff from the classic list as well as things I've enjoyed in Jund.

Matchups:

R1: RUG Delver 2-0
Don't really remember much about these games to be honest.

R2: Grixis Delver 1-1-1
First draw of the day. Game 1 he trounces me pretty quickly. Game 2 turns into a slog. Board ended up stalling for a bit but he was chewing away at me with 3 Deathrites and a Grim Lavamancer. I end up finding a StP which lets me remove the Lavamancer so I can give Batterskull to a token. He makes a mistake here by using a Deathrite to fuel the Lavamancer while he had multiple Volcs and only one U Sea. This means that he can only use one of the other two Deathrites to drain me this turn. BatterGhost pulls me out of the hole and I barely scrape by the next couple turns by the skin of my teeth. The second Deathrite activation would've likely won him the game. Anyway, second game took a while so we hit time in game three and don't get anywhere.

R3: Infect 0-2
Game 1 he lands a Sylvan Library on T2. I have a pair of StPs in hand and have been clocking him with Goyf. I've taken two infect so far, but I have lethal on the following turn. He swings with Inkmoth and Invigorates. I StP with that on the stack, he kicks a Vines. I StP again, he Forces. I probably should've let the Invigorate resolve and see what was coming next, I just didn't want to give him 5 life off of StP. Silly mistake on my part.
Game 2 is a mess. He drops a very good Bojuka Bog which virtually blanks my 3 Deathrites and Goyf. I find my third land on my fifth or sixth turn and try to cast Lingering Souls but it gets Forced and I die next turn to Inkmoth.

R4: Grixis Delver 0-2
Get trounced by TNN game 1. Game 2 he stifles Batterskull's trigger twice in a row and kills me with a TNN that I can't outpace. Last turn of the game I find Jitte off of a Stoneforge, cast it, equip, swing and gain enough life to get out of lethal range of the TNN and he draws the bolt for game. I probably should've grabbed Jitte first, that was a big mistake in both this game and the last.

R5: Miracles 2-1
Die game 1 to an unchecked Mentor backed up by JTMS. Game 2 I play a slower game, get a single dude on board with SoFaI and just chew him down. Game 3 I resolve a backbreaking Choke and go to town.

R6: Miracles 2-1
Almost an exact repeat of the last match, except I die to Entreat in Game 1.

R7: Grixis Delver 1-1-1
Another draw. He gets me good game 1. Game 2 I fetch out basics, waste every land he plays, then drop Liliana against his empty board. She just sits there and makes sure nothing significant happens until I find a Goyf. We spent several turns drawing and passing in game 2, he usually didn't have mana and I was drawing blanks for a while. Game 3 I establish board dominance with a spirit holding Jitte, but I can't kill him before turn 5.

R8: OmniTell 1-2
Game one my opponent discovers a sideboard card in his main during mulligans. Judge has him fix but forces a mulligan, which takes him down to four in hand. He's on the play, Island cantrip pass. I make the biggest mistake in the universe here. I have only one turn 1 play, a thoughtseize. I figure after mulling to four I have a little extra time to get set up before I need to break his combo, and I don't want to thoughtseize this early, thinking he may have a junk hand. I decide to hold the thoughtseize, play a T2 Stoneforge->batterskull, then turn 3 thoughtseize and activate Stoneforge. His turn 3 comes around and he has the exact 6 for the kill: 3 islands, 1 SnT, 1 Omni, 1 Emrakul. Game two I resolve Ethersworn Canonist on T2 and ride it to victory. Game 3 he forces my turn 2 canonist and turn 3s me.

I made a lot of mistakes during the tournament and lost/drew some games I think I could've won. The primary reason I'm posting this is so I can get feedback on matchup strategy. I'm still very much learning the deck and am definitely way off on my play, but I really really like the deck and want to keep moving forward with it. I had been considering Maverick over the past couple weeks but this deck is exactly my kind of playstyle. I had been playing a lot of Grixis Delver in Modern before the Twin ban, and this reminds me heavily of it.

I appreciate all feedback and suggestions. If anyone has links to good resources on this deck in addition to this discussion thread, please let me know.

[sdematt]

Hey everyone. Relatively new Legacy player here. Decided to pick up Rock as my main deck for the foreseeable future (including GP Columbus). I really like Swords and Tarmogoyf and I don't want to dump 1-2k on blue support, so here I am.

Anyway, I took the deck to the SCG Classic yesterday and did...poorly. Ended up 3-2-2, and I'll talk about my matchups here soon. First, here's my list:

MAIN DECK
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
1 Painful Truths
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction

I saw the list top a classic a few weeks back and decided to move into it from Jund. The main deck is almost totally the same as that one as I didn't feel experienced enough to be making meta calls or any other kind of changes. Sideboard is a mix of the stuff from the classic list as well as things I've enjoyed in Jund.

Matchups:

R1: RUG Delver 2-0
Don't really remember much about these games to be honest.

R2: Grixis Delver 1-1-1
First draw of the day. Game 1 he trounces me pretty quickly. Game 2 turns into a slog. Board ended up stalling for a bit but he was chewing away at me with 3 Deathrites and a Grim Lavamancer. I end up finding a StP which lets me remove the Lavamancer so I can give Batterskull to a token. He makes a mistake here by using a Deathrite to fuel the Lavamancer while he had multiple Volcs and only one U Sea. This means that he can only use one of the other two Deathrites to drain me this turn. BatterGhost pulls me out of the hole and I barely scrape by the next couple turns by the skin of my teeth. The second Deathrite activation would've likely won him the game. Anyway, second game took a while so we hit time in game three and don't get anywhere.

R3: Infect 0-2
Game 1 he lands a Sylvan Library on T2. I have a pair of StPs in hand and have been clocking him with Goyf. I've taken two infect so far, but I have lethal on the following turn. He swings with Inkmoth and Invigorates. I StP with that on the stack, he kicks a Vines. I StP again, he Forces. I probably should've let the Invigorate resolve and see what was coming next, I just didn't want to give him 5 life off of StP. Silly mistake on my part.
Game 2 is a mess. He drops a very good Bojuka Bog which virtually blanks my 3 Deathrites and Goyf. I find my third land on my fifth or sixth turn and try to cast Lingering Souls but it gets Forced and I die next turn to Inkmoth.

R4: Grixis Delver 0-2
Get trounced by TNN game 1. Game 2 he stifles Batterskull's trigger twice in a row and kills me with a TNN that I can't outpace. Last turn of the game I find Jitte off of a Stoneforge, cast it, equip, swing and gain enough life to get out of lethal range of the TNN and he draws the bolt for game. I probably should've grabbed Jitte first, that was a big mistake in both this game and the last.

R5: Miracles 2-1
Die game 1 to an unchecked Mentor backed up by JTMS. Game 2 I play a slower game, get a single dude on board with SoFaI and just chew him down. Game 3 I resolve a backbreaking Choke and go to town.

R6: Miracles 2-1
Almost an exact repeat of the last match, except I die to Entreat in Game 1.

R7: Grixis Delver 1-1-1
Another draw. He gets me good game 1. Game 2 I fetch out basics, waste every land he plays, then drop Liliana against his empty board. She just sits there and makes sure nothing significant happens until I find a Goyf. We spent several turns drawing and passing in game 2, he usually didn't have mana and I was drawing blanks for a while. Game 3 I establish board dominance with a spirit holding Jitte, but I can't kill him before turn 5.

R8: OmniTell 1-2
Game one my opponent discovers a sideboard card in his main during mulligans. Judge has him fix but forces a mulligan, which takes him down to four in hand. He's on the play, Island cantrip pass. I make the biggest mistake in the universe here. I have only one turn 1 play, a thoughtseize. I figure after mulling to four I have a little extra time to get set up before I need to break his combo, and I don't want to thoughtseize this early, thinking he may have a junk hand. I decide to hold the thoughtseize, play a T2 Stoneforge->batterskull, then turn 3 thoughtseize and activate Stoneforge. His turn 3 comes around and he has the exact 6 for the kill: 3 islands, 1 SnT, 1 Omni, 1 Emrakul. Game two I resolve Ethersworn Canonist on T2 and ride it to victory. Game 3 he forces my turn 2 canonist and turn 3s me.

I made a lot of mistakes during the tournament and lost/drew some games I think I could've won. The primary reason I'm posting this is so I can get feedback on matchup strategy. I'm still very much learning the deck and am definitely way off on my play, but I really really like the deck and want to keep moving forward with it. I had been considering Maverick over the past couple weeks but this deck is exactly my kind of playstyle. I had been playing a lot of Grixis Delver in Modern before the Twin ban, and this reminds me heavily of it.

I appreciate all feedback and suggestions. If anyone has links to good resources on this deck in addition to this discussion thread, please let me know.

Ill give advice tomorrow! :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I went 3-2 on Saturday @ GP Albuquerque and 3-1-1 on Sunday. I'll post the two lists (about 5 cards different) tonight after I get off work.

Saturday I played:
Burn (2-1)
Slivers (1-2)
Charbelcher (2-1; this was hilarious)
ANT (0-2)
WG Eldrazi (2-0)

Sunday
Aggro Eldrazi (black only; 2-1)
Aggro Loam (2-1)
Miracles (1-1; he played slow as hell)
Enchantress (0-2)
Same burn player 2-1

There ya go.

[jroharo]

I went 3-2 on Saturday @ GP Albuquerque and 3-1-1 on Sunday. I'll post the two lists (about 5 cards different) tonight after I get off work.

Saturday I played:
Burn (2-1)
Slivers (1-2)
Charbelcher (2-1; this was hilarious)
ANT (0-2)
WG Eldrazi (2-0)

Sunday
Aggro Eldrazi (black only; 2-1)
Aggro Loam (2-1)
Miracles (1-1; he played slow as hell)
Enchantress (0-2)
Same burn player 2-1

There ya go.

Sup dude! I was your ANT opponent Saturday.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hey bro, good stuff. You'll have to make it out this way sometime for a lil Western Slope Legacy action.

[jroharo]

Agreed! And thanks again for clearing out those pesky Eldrazi players :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Agreed! And thanks again for clearing out those pesky Eldrazi players :)

Yeah. They think they've got the format by the curlies, but I beat triple Thought-Knot on Sunday.

Anyway, decklist time:

SUNDAY JUNK


Creatures-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Siege Rhino

Spells-23
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library

Land-23
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard-15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge


Highlights were not losing a match to Eldrazi, winning a match against Belcher, Extracting both FoW and Counterbalance vs. Miracles within the first 3 turns of the game. Toxic Deluge is an insane card, Siege Rhino got so many raised eyebrows but won so many games (Rhino with Batterskull is better than any Eldrazi I've run into), Sylvan Library being a busted card, and finally, the Singleton Revoker stays, as I was able to win multiple games ONLY because of him.

Slops: Here's to Enchantress, it's a damn dirty deck and I wish it didn't exist lol. It was a teammate of mine playing it, and he did quite well, going 4-0-1. I probably would have gone 4-0-1 if I had won, but alas, drawing isn't something either of us were willing to do so, win some, lose some. It is a terribly bad matchup for this deck, though.

Anyway, thoughts, criticisms, whatever. Fire away. Was hoping to hear from Matt yesterday, maybe he isn't home yet....Canada's a big place, one could get lost lol.

-ABC

[sdematt]

Yeah. They think they've got the format by the curlies, but I beat triple Thought-Knot on Sunday.

Anyway, decklist time:

SUNDAY JUNK


Creatures-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Siege Rhino

Spells-23
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library

Land-23
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard-15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge


Highlights were not losing a match to Eldrazi, winning a match against Belcher, Extracting both FoW and Counterbalance vs. Miracles within the first 3 turns of the game. Toxic Deluge is an insane card, Siege Rhino got so many raised eyebrows but won so many games (Rhino with Batterskull is better than any Eldrazi I've run into), Sylvan Library being a busted card, and finally, the Singleton Revoker stays, as I was able to win multiple games ONLY because of him.

Slops: Here's to Enchantress, it's a damn dirty deck and I wish it didn't exist lol. It was a teammate of mine playing it, and he did quite well, going 4-0-1. I probably would have gone 4-0-1 if I had won, but alas, drawing isn't something either of us were willing to do so, win some, lose some. It is a terribly bad matchup for this deck, though.

Anyway, thoughts, criticisms, whatever. Fire away. Was hoping to hear from Matt yesterday, maybe he isn't home yet....Canada's a big place, one could get lost lol.

-ABC

Med school final exams are the fucking worst. Best thing? Add me on Facebook.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Cool, you don't mind? I wouldn't mind chatting once in a while. My girlfriend is studying to become a veterinarian, so I'm picking up what you are putting down. Would you PM me your full name so I can add you to my FB?

Edit: I don't remember my Saturday list exactly, but I do remember

-1 Lingering Souls
-1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
+1 Hero of Bladehold

[Diogo37]

Anyone play Spirit of the Labyrinth + Mirri's Guile build?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Nope, that's gimmicky imo. Besides, Spirit is often not great.

Here is what I'll be playing for a Thursday night magic and at our local win-a-box on the 28th.

4 DRS
1 Revoker
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Rhino
4 Lingering Souls
1 BSkull
1 Jitte
4 StP
3 A. Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Heath
2 Flats
4 Catacombs

Sb-15
2 S. Extraction
2 Priest
2 Canonist
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disenchant
1 A. Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Deed
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Slightly meta-gamed.

[Vandalize]

Nope, that's gimmicky imo. Besides, Spirit is often not great.

Here is what I'll be playing for a Thursday night magic and at our local win-a-box on the 28th.

4 DRS
1 Revoker
3 SFM
4 Goyf
3 Rhino
4 Lingering Souls
1 BSkull
1 Jitte
4 StP
3 A. Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Heath
2 Flats
4 Catacombs

Sb-15
2 S. Extraction
2 Priest
2 Canonist
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disenchant
1 A. Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Deed
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Slightly meta-gamed.

Why are you playing Dryad Arbor in a list without Green Sun's Zenith? The ability to fetch into a creature post Terminus (or to save something else from Liliana's -2) is enough to justify a land that can't produce mana when it comes into play AND can be removed by standard removal?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The fetches have been enough. The meta I play in is less than competitive and even when I played this at GP Albuquerque in side events, I did so without zenith and was satisfied with the results of 3-1-1, losing to enchantress (terrible matchup) and drawing with a very slow miracles player. If it becomes an issue, of course I will be revisiting the issue. As for netdecking and not understanding, you are welcome to your opinion, but my record with junk speaks for itself. If this were a netdeck, i believe the list would contain at least 1x GSZ, however, it does not... You, sir, are clearly a scholar and a gentleman. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.

[Vandalize]

The fetches have been enough. The meta I play in is less than competitive and even when I played this at GP Albuquerque in side events, I did so without zenith and was satisfied with the results of 3-1-1, losing to enchantress (terrible matchup) and drawing with a very slow miracles player. If it becomes an issue, of course I will be revisiting the issue. As for netdecking and not understanding, you are welcome to your opinion, but my record with junk speaks for itself. If this were a netdeck, i believe the list would contain at least 1x GSZ, however, it does not... You, sir, are clearly a scholar and a gentleman. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.

You should probably use this fetch setup then:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

or

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

Even so, 7 fetches to grab Dryad Arbor seems less than optimal.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It probably is. Again, however, I did mention that I did metagame a bit. There is only 1 miracles player and a lot of non-blue red lists, so I still feel that the Arbor is necessary, but to the extent that I would want to GSZ for it; I doubt it.

Edit: for those of you who believe that I should be running GSZ, how many do you think I should play, and what do you believe I should drop?

Edit #2: I thought it out, and I think I prefer Oath of Nissa to GSZ, so if I do anything, it will be those.

[Claymore]

Feel it's worth pointing out that his list also uses Cabal Therapy to fully utilize the Dryad Arbor.

Is it weird that I want to play the Gitgud Monster in a deck with Dryad Arbor and Cabal Therapy?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The Gitrog Monster will probably be best in a shell that already has the potential to abuse it, like Aggro Loam. In my opinion, it would require a lot of changing to this archetype, and red is probably better than white, honestly.

[tescrin]

The Gitrog Monster will probably be best in a shell that already has the potential to abuse it, like Aggro Loam. In my opinion, it would require a lot of changing to this archetype, and red is probably better than white, honestly.

You're implying jund?
White gives you Plow and combo-game. I'm probably misunderstanding what you're responding to.
IMO; junk has better game against almost everything in the field except those that are weak to PFire IMO.

Either way, Enchantress is quite doable if you run Lilianas, 5ish discard, and something like EE in the side. I don't think i've lost a match to Enchantress in any deck I've played; but maybe it's just bad luck on your end?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You're implying jund?
White gives you Plow and combo-game. I'm probably misunderstanding what you're responding to.
IMO; junk has better game against almost everything in the field except those that are weak to PFire IMO.

Either way, Enchantress is quite doable if you run Lilianas, 5ish discard, and something like EE in the side. I don't think i've lost a match to Enchantress in any deck I've played; but maybe it's just bad luck on your end?
I was speaking about The Gitrog Monster and was simply stating my personal opinion of where The Gitrog Monster will most likely be at its best. I implied Jund because afaik, it's the most common form of Aggro Loam. Also Jund Lands, both of these decks play LftL and Mox Diamond, making Gitrog a prime candidate for a slot there. Drawing a card for wasting a land and using that draw to dredge up your LftL to get back the Wasteland plus two more seems good. Of course you are correct about white having more game, but at this juncture, a Junk list that truly abuses Gitrog's abilities is not currently in existence.

@ Enchantress: I can't say for sure, but you may not have been playing a proficient enchantress pilot, because I test against it weekly, as a teammate of mine plays it, and only it. A very strong list and pilot. Lmk if you can come up with a consistent way to get rid of Worship + Shrouded enchantress as well as a Solitary Confinement with a Sterling Grove on the table. Also,win con is hardcast Emrakul or Helm RIP main. I have to tell you, it's a bad matchup.

[tescrin]

@ Enchantress: I can't say for sure, but you may not have been playing a proficient enchantress pilot, because I test against it weekly, as a teammate of mine plays it, and only it. A very strong list and pilot. Lmk if you can come up with a consistent way to get rid of Worship + Shrouded enchantress as well as a Solitary Confinement with a Sterling Grove on the table. Also,win con is hardcast Emrakul or Helm RIP main. I have to tell you, it's a bad matchup.

Normally I finish them off with DRS. It's one of the best cards ever printed against them unless they're on RiP ofc. IME, normally I'm disrupting their ability to get their game going with Discard, get a bunch of damage in, and while they start setting up a lock they are finished out by DRS. I'll say the last time I faced them as Junk I was using a pair or so of MD Tidehollow Scullers (closer to DGA) which did *a lot* of work. The ability to slow the engine with non-targeted removal and then dismantle their hand while swinging seemed reliable the few times I got to play it as junk.

I did play them again as Grixis recently no problem; also locking the game up with DRS. If your buddy runs the RiP/Helm version I could see it being a bigger issue; though your Decays have nothing else to do than pick off 1-mana rampers so I imagine you can still do this.

Most of the time I see the deck, it seems to fumble over itself with minimal disruption. Right now I sold my Lilis when they got mega-profitable so I couldn't say how it'd go until I figure out what kind of deck list I'd be running. DGA would be my likely route; in which Vindicate does a good impression of Hymn against them.

[Megadeus]

Anybody try out Tireless Tracker? Or is it not as good in this deck because of only having 4 mana dorks? I've read a few Maverick lists liking him

[tescrin]

Anybody try out Tireless Tracker? Or is it not as good in this deck because of only having 4 mana dorks? I've read a few Maverick lists liking him

I haven't, but they certainly have more ways to abuse him and mana ramp to use him. KotR for saccing, the mana-dork problem (they have 9ish due to GSZ.)

I think any build running KotR not only allows mana ramp but quick sizing of Tracker + immediate tokens upon resolution, potentially multiples, by even T3.

I could be worth testing, but I feel like Junk's point is to be lower to the ground (2-drops) and just have too many to deal with.

[Whit3boy316]

Is this list still played/relevant anymore? Im thinking if making it
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99984

[ironclad8690]

That list is still the best placing recent list to date. In other words probably your best bet or close to it.

[Whit3boy316]

That list is still the best placing recent list to date. In other words probably your best bet or close to it.

You are in like every thread lol

[sdematt]

You are in like every thread lol

I'm pretty sure I'm King BGx.deck, and he's Prince BGx.deck. Thoughts?

[Xod]

All hail sdematt!

[Havrekjex]

Does this thread cover builds like this, or is it too different?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10708&d=261245&f=LE

Also, does BG Rock/Depths seem like a Very Bad Idea? I don`t know why, but I`m drawn to it.

[jrsthethird]

Does this thread cover builds like this, or is it too different?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10708&d=261245&f=LE

Also, does BG Rock/Depths seem like a Very Bad Idea? I don`t know why, but I`m drawn to it.

If anyone in here is playing DD, it's probably a two-slot tutor package with KOTR and not a primary wincon with Hexmage and Living Wish. These builds are more midrange focused with lots of card advantage and SFM equipment package.

There is an Established thread for more dedicated Dark Depths combo decks: www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths

[sdematt]

Does this thread cover builds like this, or is it too different?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10708&d=261245&f=LE

Also, does BG Rock/Depths seem like a Very Bad Idea? I don`t know why, but I`m drawn to it.

Ive run it before, I dont think its terrible. Hexmage is a great guy in combat esp. With equips. 3 hexmage, 1 depths, 1 stage 4 knight. Easy.

[sdematt]

4 Knight
3 Hexmage
3 Dark Confidant
4 DRS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

2 Jitte
2 Gsz
2 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam
4 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
3 STP
2 Painful Truths

1 Depths
1 Stage
1 Urborg
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Sav
7 Fetches
1 Swamp
1 Forest

[ironclad8690]

I'm pretty sure I'm King BGx.deck, and he's Prince BGx.deck. Thoughts?

Did someone say prince?

http://media.comicbook.com/2016/04/prince-purple-rain-180090.jpg

[Havrekjex]

I like it, sdematt. I guess the difference between that and what I linked is that yours, like 4C Loam, plays aggro/midrange with the Depths combo as an available option, while the list I linked tries to hammer redundant Marit Lage attempts through while also having the disruptive midrange plan to keep the opponent busy and to have something to fall back on. So they have reversed priorities, I guess.


I don't think the straight combo deck in the other thread is the same thing at all, but I can see how it doesn't quite fit in here either. Thanks anyway.

[Slysoft]

Hey guys. Just registered here to see if I could get some tips. I am a modern player, but I like to play Legacy casually with friends, and I am a fan of BGw in general, so I've taken a crack at this style of deck in legacy.

My decklist:

Land:
2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

Enchantment:
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker:
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery:
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Lingering Souls
2x Painful Truths
2x Thoughtseize

Creature:
3x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf

Artifact:
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant:
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
2x Choke
2x Duress
1x Engineered Plague
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Zealous Persecution

My playgroup for the most part avoids combo, although one guy does have combo elves. It's mainly delver/shardless/elves/homebrew.

I am not sure if it is correct to drop one abrupt decay for maelstrom pulse. It's good in modern but I'm not experienced in legacy. Also in the BGx mirror in modern you typically side out discard spells, but I'm not sure in this format if that is the correct play. Also I'm not sure if I'm playing enough sweeper effects, as really the only board wipe I have for the mirror is toxic deluge.

EDIT: Also, I wonder if it's a better idea to play the sideboard enchantment/artifacts as 1 ofs and just include an enlightened tutor or two.

Thanks for the help.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think pulse is a maindeck card. I think you're a little short on 1-drop cards. I always play 4 one mana discard spells (at one time it was appropriate to play 6-8.) Painful truths seems greedy at 2 copies, I know a 2nd library will win you more games.

I'm not sure its worth it in your metagamr but I always love the classic 1-of Vindicate.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I always play a singleton Maelstrom. The value it can generate is real and can decimate boardstates, as well as pick up the slack that Abrupt Decay leaves behind (4+ drops). There's a reason modern jund and Shardless both play it.

[Slysoft]

I guess the question is, is the ability to target a land better than the ability to remove multiple threats? Of course, that could also be a downside since it effects you as well (blow up opponents and your own goyf or whatever) although there is enough other removal that it shouldn't be an issue.

I agree with running 2x sylvan library. The main reason I have 2 painful truths is I don't have another sylvan library.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sooooo...no one else just excited as shit for Thalia 2.0 as I am? Who's playing less than 3?

[sdematt]

I'm pretty into here, I agree. Not nutting our own stuff isn't terrible, either. Allowing Goyfs to alpha more also seems aite. But, more Karakas in the metagame if DnT gets better might be an issue.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 SFM
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
18

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 Sword X
3

1 GSZ
2 Souls
2 Sylvan
2 Truths
3 STP
4 Decay
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
5

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Catacombs
2 Heath
1 Flats
3 Basics
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
21
////////////////

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Needle
1 Sigarda
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Canonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (Loam?)

Rough list, of course.

[maharis]

New Thalia is definitely a toy worth exploring, and we also just got this guy...

http://i.imgur.com/DALfSNR.jpg

Scry 3 per turn? Fill your GY for delve guys/Goyfs/Knights, while drawing gas? Trample + equipment? Opportunities abound.

[Claymore]

I'm curious if New Liliana could be used here. She doesn't look super great for Legacy, but in this deck:


Her +1 tilts combat math in your favor (opposing Goyfs). She looks to work the best with creatures on her side, since they can protect her while she +1's and occasionally kills an x/1 dork.
She can resurrect dead Goyfs. This deck generally uses discard to counteract removal, but grave digging a Goyf works too.
Her +1 will let you keep situational removal like Decay, Swords, and Pulse in hand to counteract top decked Counterbalances and RIPs (with the tradeoff of not removing countermagic). Not sure if you'd rather just kill creatures instead (LotV). She also plays well with Stoneforge, as you can keep the Equipment you cast.
Her ultimate will eventually win the game, barring Moat. LotV does too, but not as much a given.
Her -2 can technically dig for creatures after a Terminus, but likely not very well.


She's obviously hot garbage against Show and Tell and combo, but I think she could be promising enough against other mid range decks. Odds are you'd likely want LotV more often overall, but she's still interesting.

[sdematt]

I'm curious if New Liliana could be used here. She doesn't look super great for Legacy, but in this deck:


Her +1 tilts combat math in your favor (opposing Goyfs). She looks to work the best with creatures on her side, since they can protect her while she +1's and occasionally kills an x/1 dork.
She can resurrect dead Goyfs. This deck generally uses discard to counteract removal, but grave digging a Goyf works too.
Her +1 will let you keep situational removal like Decay, Swords, and Pulse in hand to counteract top decked Counterbalances and RIPs (with the tradeoff of not removing countermagic). Not sure if you'd rather just kill creatures instead (LotV). She also plays well with Stoneforge, as you can keep the Equipment you cast.
Her ultimate will eventually win the game, barring Moat. LotV does too, but not as much a given.
Her -2 can technically dig for creatures after a Terminus, but likely not very well.


She's obviously hot garbage against Show and Tell and combo, but I think she could be promising enough against other mid range decks. Odds are you'd likely want LotV more often overall, but she's still interesting.

I think she has potential, but then I wonder why not run original Liliana? But then, I remember I'm not in love with original in this deck, so then I just run more stuffs.

I like the new BG guy. Art is super boring, but definitely a cool little Werebear.

[Slysoft]

Do you guys think it's worth it to run a 1 of shambling vent? I would replace my 2nd swamp with it. It seems somewhat slow honestly and dies to tarmogoyf but Shardless often runs creeping tar pit so who knows.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I dislike the new guy, Matt.

Vent isn't worth it in my opinion. Swamp is better in decks with Abrupt Decay as there are b2b and Moons all over the place currently, not to mention Wasteland all over the place.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I'm pretty sure I'm going to be playing 3 Thalia 2.0 main and Chokes in the side, as that is hilariously powerful against Miracles. Its also very strong with Crackdown. I am, however, less inclined to play Crackdowns due to the dissynergy with Goyf. This is going to be a staple in Junk for quite some time as far as I can tell, it's testing is strong to OP in a LOT of matchups. I can't tell you how many fetches I've wasted due to this. It may be worth playing a crucible/LftL package. Turn 1 death rite, turn 2 Thalia is gross.

[Claymore]

What list do you run? What do you take out to fit in Thalias?

Her biggest ability seems to be shutting down fetches, I think she really wants Wastelands. Loams would go great with that package.

[sdematt]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 SFM
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
18

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 Sword X
3

1 GSZ
2 Souls
2 Sylvan
2 Truths
3 STP
4 Decay
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
5

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Catacombs
2 Heath
1 Flats
3 Basics
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
21
////////////////

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Needle
1 Sigarda
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Canonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (Loam?)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No Choke in the board, Matt? Seems incorrect. Maybe we play differently. What specifically are you bringing Hymn in for, Miracles and Eldrazi plus extra combo hate? It's also strange to me that you play 2 Library main.

[sdematt]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 SFM
3 Thalia
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
18

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 Sword X
3

1 GSZ
2 Souls
2 Sylvan
2 Truths
3 STP
4 Decay
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
5

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Catacombs
2 Heath
1 Flats
3 Basics
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
21
////////////////

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Needle
1 Sigarda
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Canonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (Loam?)

I cut one for a Truths.

Choke is great, but I needed more Combo hate so that'ss what Hymn is for. It's also posssible to just cut Hymn for Choke or straight up Geddon (I think Geddon is fine if I play Loam). I don't think you need Choke if you're running Thalia and a bunch of other hate (like Bitterblosssom, for example).

[Megadeus]

Someone said something about loam and new Thalia in the maverick thread and I thought maybe in this deck with diamonds and deathrite for consistent turn two Thalia's with loam to recur fetches. Any thoughts of how terrible it might be?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think a version of 4c aggro loam is probably the best spot for this kind of interaction. I don't want to play mox diamond in this. It seems like a terrible top deck.

[damionblackgear]

A set of Shamans and Diamonds is too much but, a variation works pretty well. I suggest no more than 5 slots to ramp/fix as it always seemed to clutter the draws. That being said, I haven't tested with the more streamlined Junk-based builds though. You would need to adjust your land counts to fit the Diamonds.

The above says nothing of the spots Loam would take away. In the end, you would end up adjusting more than you may have bargained for.

Just wondering, why did the poor man's Tarmogoyf get passed over so fast (I'll later edit to add name)? He's most likely a 4/4 after turn 3...4 that allows you to filter draws similar to library.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

A set of Shamans and Diamonds is too much but, a variation works pretty well. I suggest no more than 5 slots to ramp/fix as it always seemed to clutter the draws. That being said, I haven't tested with the more streamlined Junk-based builds though. You would need to adjust your land counts to fit the Diamonds.

The above says nothing of the spots Loam would take away. In the end, you would end up adjusting more than you may have bargained for.

Just wondering, why did the poor man's Tarmogoyf get passed over so fast (I'll later edit to add name)? He's most likely a 4/4 after turn 3...4 that allows you to filter draws similar to library.
I don't think it's necessarily too much, diamond feeds the shaman, after all. Also, corner-case plays of land, diamond, shaman daze-proofs your first turn on the draw. Also, I hear turn 1 confidant/sfm/thalia is strong, as are several 3-drops on turn 2. I think drawing a mox late is one of the worst things to have happen. It's worse than drawing land, and any other spell is better. Just why I dislike it. You could always just play 2x or even a singleton.

[sdematt]

A set of Shamans and Diamonds is too much but, a variation works pretty well. I suggest no more than 5 slots to ramp/fix as it always seemed to clutter the draws. That being said, I haven't tested with the more streamlined Junk-based builds though. You would need to adjust your land counts to fit the Diamonds.

The above says nothing of the spots Loam would take away. In the end, you would end up adjusting more than you may have bargained for.

Just wondering, why did the poor man's Tarmogoyf get passed over so fast (I'll later edit to add name)? He's most likely a 4/4 after turn 3...4 that allows you to filter draws similar to library.

Fuck me, you're alive.

[damionblackgear]

Fuck me, you're alive.

Of course. I just haven't been playing much. Life found a way to sap my ME TIME (2 kids with a 3rd on the way).

Bee, I agree. Later game draws are thrown off due to too many accelerates; that's why I suggested not to use more than 5. The more you have, the more it speeds up how fast those bad draws make an appearance as the deck has more of them. The first turn Bob's and such are nice as long as they stick. *insert random dies to everything joke*. Honestly though, if they don't, it's a big kick in the teeth since it's pretty much a mulligan.

So the card I was thinking about ("Poor man's Goyf" - #7169) is Grim Flayer. Why did this guy get passed over so fast? It's not Goyf as far as potential power/toughness but it is a clock and offers a filter (draw/filter effects are almost gold). Works especially well with Lingering Souls and Loam (one pretty much standard in most builds and the other of recent mention a couple posts back). Additionally, Trample is not to be overlooked for anyone coming up against Death and Taxes or still using a Sword of X/Y. I feel like he's a slightly weaker Goyf with insane utility for the archetype. It's like if Tyrion Lannister was part of House Goyf.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think I like him less than Rhino. It feels like the reason, at least for me.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think his potential is holding him back, its his mana cost. I am always trying to figure out how to trim down the 2-slot without sacrificing power. If there was a poor-man's goyf it has to be Scavenging Ooze.

The matchups where you will connect with him more than once seems like combo decks, maybe miracles if you can actually stick him. In those matchups I'd much rather have Tideholow Sculler, Hymn to Tourach, or gaddock teeg (sideboard.) I know I'm a little too slanted towards sculler, always have been.

[Nerubian]

What do you guys think of the new walker?


http://media.wizards.com/2016/azetllnwjpxztp2b_CN2/en_RfLLcp8FCz.png

Fits well with the strategy: extra reach/lifegain against aggro, discard/draw against combo, exile a creature for alpha (or to reset delvers).

[Megadeus]

I think it's kind of sweet here. You even get a bit of reach!

[tescrin]

Hits the battlefield for +2 CA and it's garbage? That's the highest CA I think you can get on a 4- CMC walker right now barring weird Liliana tricks that no one uses (drop a Bloodghast for instance.) It *is* 4 mana; but it draws cards, actually kills the opponent, without targeting, without creatures. This is the closest Junk will ever get to a Jace IMO. Again, +2 CA is a big deal. Even if she dies you drew a card (much like Jace.)

I'll admit that the first ability is underwhelming but it can be relevant even aside from resetting her. If the opponent has a 4/5 Goyf, F.E., it'll keep attacking her, and oyu'll keep resetting. You do lose 2 a turn, but doing that for a couple turns and then saccing her to gain 2 would be reasonable fogging. Stacking her flicker with SFM is an obvious choice for getting free cards and she could bring about the Coming of the Wasteland Strangler. It may not fit in real junk, since you probably cut Goyf; but DGA will probably pick it up.

I can't stress enough that unlike most walkers, even just casting the thing successfully is already a Hymn. If you untap with her I have to imagine that getting a second draw + discard would usually close it out. At that point, who cares if she dies?

EDIT: Also, note that you don't have to take her out of the deck for Leyline of Sanctity.

[KobeBryan]

Hits the battlefield for +2 CA and it's garbage? That's the highest CA I think you can get on a 4- CMC walker right now barring weird Liliana tricks that no one uses (drop a Bloodghast for instance.) It *is* 4 mana; but it draws cards, actually kills the opponent, without targeting, without creatures. This is the closest Junk will ever get to a Jace IMO. Again, +2 CA is a big deal. Even if she dies you drew a card (much like Jace.)

I'll admit that the first ability is underwhelming but it can be relevant even aside from resetting her. If the opponent has a 4/5 Goyf, F.E., it'll keep attacking her, and oyu'll keep resetting. You do lose 2 a turn, but doing that for a couple turns and then saccing her to gain 2 would be reasonable fogging. Stacking her flicker with SFM is an obvious choice for getting free cards and she could bring about the Coming of the Wasteland Strangler. It may not fit in real junk, since you probably cut Goyf; but DGA will probably pick it up.

I can't stress enough that unlike most walkers, even just casting the thing successfully is already a Hymn. If you untap with her I have to imagine that getting a second draw + discard would usually close it out. At that point, who cares if she dies?

EDIT: Also, note that you don't have to take her out of the deck for Leyline of Sanctity.

By the time you reach 4 mana to cast the damn thing, there's really no point of discarding.

[Megadeus]

With deathrite turn 3 is reasonable. Also resetting an opposing germ on a batterskull is pretty sweet. If nothing else it's a slow howling mine for you and in a mid range match it whittles down opposing resources. If the -1 were damage and could hurt opposing walkers it would be super sick

[montoy]

hi guys,
this is a very informative thread for us junk players
currently this is my build let me know your thoughts here
i constantly adjust minor things here to suite the meta

is 2 guiles good? was thinking of competing with blue's brains storms and ponders...

LANDS 21
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

CREATURES 15
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg

SPELLS 24
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Lingering Souls
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD 15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Containment Priest
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg


lands
- can go head to head but the game can drag
- pithing and SE are the best here

agro loam
- almost same as above

delver types
- i say 50/50
- mongoose variants gives me some head aches

dnt
- always who draws answer and threat first

infect
- annoying deck to fight, it just so fast
- wasteland and eng plague helps

burn, omnitel/ show and tell
- i just bow down to these 2 deck most of the time

eldrazi
- lotv always seals the game

miracles
- hate hate hate but managable
- chains is pretty new acqui, havent tried how painful it is for them

reanim
- karakas, SE extirpate, drs, ooze, containment (",)

storm
- teeg thalia SE Extir
- a good mull will do alot (",)

[Megadeus]

Been brewing with new recruiter in this sort of build. It's probably bad. I also want to capitalize on how brutal Thalia is with wasteland


4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shriekmaw
3 Recruiter of the Guard

4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords To Plowshares
3 Life from the Loam
2 Reanimate
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

[Xod]

Looks a cool variant.

Let us know how it goes.

[mg7]

Been brewing with new recruiter in this sort of build. It's probably bad. I also want to capitalize on how brutal Thalia is with wasteland


It is brutal against many decks. I played against Death & Texax and he wasted my fetch lands, plus port and vial.... no chances :((((

Honeslty I noticed Death & Texas much more improved with the new cards, and "the Rock" has even fewer chances now to beat it.

I appreciate your new brew because the deck must have new strategies in order to make a difference: as said erlier, other decks are evolving, our is stuck unless we find a new configuration.

Let us know the results!

[mg7]

I tried some new configuration too taking example from Megadeus.

The list is similar to an Aggro Loam without Punishing and red base. I try to play around 4 Chalice and 2 Prelator.
Knight, Lilly and Dark Depths try to make the game.

I am making some tests with some good results and I just updated the side to be more competitve vs Miracle.

4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Plains
3 Bayou
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Lingering Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Null Rod

What do you think guys?

[EunB]

Null Rod seems bad with your 4 Mox Diamond -- should switch that to Pithing Needle probably

[montoy]

i went 2-3 with this deck, on a legacy side event, Nov 27 Gold rush manila
27 players.
started out well, and just went down hill

MAIN
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
2 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Plague
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg


2-0
Dredge
went well.
DRS was a star.

2-0
Storm belcher
game 1- inqui T1 was great.
spirit of the lab shined here
game 2- almost died to belcher. taiga just revelaed itself on the 4rth card.
then top decked a pithing needle. then all the hate just started coming out.
teeg, cannonist, spirit

0-2
Eldrazi
Game 1- the power of thought knot...
cant recover from a t2 thought knot
game 2- gambled for a 1 land play since i have a guile at hand
my guile hates me hahaha

0-2
DNT
game 1- prelate killed my removal.
game 2- we both started bad. both mana screwed at the begining.
3 ports no plains, good thing my pithing came out early.
he got the advantage with the jailer. massacred and toxic del him. wasn't able to hit him to get the monarch status...

0-2
Omnitell
nothing much to say here,
wasn't expecting a win hehe

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

So i put this together on modo because I wanted to grind and play choke.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary (could be lingering souls or maybe even siege rhino or goyf)

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless

I tested the list a little bit vs Miracles and the post board games seem quite favorable with 2 Choke, 2 Thalia, 1 Pithing, 1 Garruk, 1 Krosan Grip

(I take out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, or sometimes just 4 Swords 3 Thoughtseize).

The eldrazi matchup has been pretty favorable with SFM + Knight and Swords to Plowshares (one reason I am playing this over Jund). I like Knight better than Goyf right now because of the prevalence of reanimator, where grabbing a karakas is clutch.

I will try a few leagues soon and post my results. Hoping to revive this archetype a bit, I think junk is better than jund right now (but possibly worse than shardless, time will tell).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Your build bends over to gy hate. I actually moved away from junk because of all the RIP I played against. Goyf, DRS, KotR all just suck when one is down. You can play through it, I just got tired of that particular battle. To be honest, this is still my favorite non-dnt, non-blue deck to play. 3 Dark Confi is my max, though. I also think that a 4th decay is better than a 3rd liliana.

Edit: no goyf? That's the first change to make. I understand the allure of tutoring for the Karakas, but that play is horribly slow, especially when the popular version of reanimator is the BR superfast version.

[Seraphix]

Hey guys,

So i put this together on modo because I wanted to grind and play choke.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary (could be lingering souls or maybe even siege rhino or goyf)

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless

I tested the list a little bit vs Miracles and the post board games seem quite favorable with 2 Choke, 2 Thalia, 1 Pithing, 1 Garruk, 1 Krosan Grip

(I take out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, or sometimes just 4 Swords 3 Thoughtseize).

The eldrazi matchup has been pretty favorable with SFM + Knight and Swords to Plowshares (one reason I am playing this over Jund). I like Knight better than Goyf right now because of the prevalence of reanimator, where grabbing a karakas is clutch.

I will try a few leagues soon and post my results. Hoping to revive this archetype a bit, I think junk is better than jund right now (but possibly worse than shardless, time will tell).

I'm inclined to favor Tarmogoyf over Stoneforge Mystic in Junk builds since it fits more smoothly into the deck. SFM is a beating vs Eldrazi, but Goyf + Knight is still a fantastic team to have in that matchup. I think there is less RIP out there than there used to be-a lot of Miracles lists are cutting it so it's basically just DnT and maybe a random Stoneblade deck running it. People will likely continue to move towards "fast" GY hate to combat the rise in Br Griselbrand as RIP is often too slow there.

I believe Jund generally has a better Miracles matchup than Junk due to having Blasts and Cardadvantage Elf. Junk looks much better against Eldrazi though, and I think the Miracles matchup can be strengthened with the right card choices, so its a good time to give Junk a shot.

[ironclad8690]

So this was definitely the highlight of the first league

http://i.imgur.com/Kc0vhp0.png

My run went like this:

Elves: 1-2
Elves: 2-0 (same dude, mulled to a hand with more action g1)
Eldrazi: 2-1
TES: 2-1
ANT: 1-2

Pretty average start, but I feel like the deck can do some serious work.

To address some of your guys' points:

1) Yes, I do think goyf would be objectively stronger than knight, but I really like the option to tutor up wastelands a couple turns in a row. Knight also gets out of hand in terms of size pretty dang quick, whereas goyf will often be in dismember range (shardless at least can chump with little artifact dudes to put him to 5/6). I feel knight is more in line with what I am trying to do, accrue a long term advantage, where Goyf is more tempoey. Each is fine in their own regard.

2) I like stoneforge more than goyf in this deck because Dark Confidant's life loss is often game losing, especially with the speed of eldrazi and the number of bolt decks around. I like having batterskull/jitte to recover the life loss.

I might try some other configurations later, but this is fine for now.

In my 2nd league:

High Tide: 2-1
Elves: 2-1
D&T: 1-2
Shardless: 1-2
4c Delver: 2-1

The shardless match g3 I mulled a 1 lander to find another 1 lander, scryed nonland to bottom, and didn't draw 2nd land for a turn or two, but it was enough time for him to get too far ahead. What I am experiencing with this deck so far is that vs fair decks, if I get enough lands to cast my spells, I win. Vs unfair, if I can curve t1 TS into t2 hymn or hatebear, I win. This happens maybe 51% of the time lol

[NEELEY]

So this was definitely the highlight of the first league

http://i.imgur.com/Kc0vhp0.png

My run went like this:

Elves: 1-2
Elves: 2-0 (same dude, mulled to a hand with more action g1)
Eldrazi: 2-1
TES: 2-1
ANT: 1-2

Pretty average start, but I feel like the deck can do some serious work.

To address some of your guys' points:

1) Yes, I do think goyf would be objectively stronger than knight, but I really like the option to tutor up wastelands a couple turns in a row. Knight also gets out of hand in terms of size pretty dang quick, whereas goyf will often be in dismember range (shardless at least can chump with little artifact dudes to put him to 5/6). I feel knight is more in line with what I am trying to do, accrue a long term advantage, where Goyf is more tempoey. Each is fine in their own regard.

2) I like stoneforge more than goyf in this deck because Dark Confidant's life loss is often game losing, especially with the speed of eldrazi and the number of bolt decks around. I like having batterskull/jitte to recover the life loss.

I might try some other configurations later, but this is fine for now.

In my 2nd league:

High Tide: 2-1
Elves: 2-1
D&T: 1-2
Shardless: 1-2
4c Delver: 2-1

The shardless match g3 I mulled a 1 lander to find another 1 lander, scryed nonland to bottom, and didn't draw 2nd land for a turn or two, but it was enough time for him to get too far ahead. What I am experiencing with this deck so far is that vs fair decks, if I get enough lands to cast my spells, I win. Vs unfair, if I can curve t1 TS into t2 hymn or hatebear, I win. This happens maybe 51% of the time lol

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13702&f=LE

Here's my list I've played a couple leagues with. Goyf definitely is better in the list, kotr is too clunky at times.

I tried this list and was a little clunky but it was when dig through time was still legal

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91032

[ironclad8690]

Whelp, just had my first poor run after the 2 3-2s.

BUG Planeswalkers (control style list with multiple LotV, JtMS, Last Hope, ashiok): 1-2
Shardless BUG: 1-2
Miracles: 1-2
Turbodepths: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 0-2

Miracles was almost a win, opp started game 3 with 2 minutes on the clock and nut drew removal for my Pithing Needle and (miraculously) found Entreat the angels as I was attacking for lethal and then cracked back for lethal. Perhaps I should have taken his cantrips with my Thoughtseizes (I took a from the ashes and a spell snare to resolve my bob). I also could have SFM'ed in a batterskull which would have put me out of lethal range sooner, but I got greedy and went with sword of Fire and Ice beats instead.

Not exactly sure what to change. I feel lingering souls would be much better vs control decks than knight, so maybe that's the first step. I remember playing against a dude who had 6 Hymns (with 2 being Gerrard's Verdict), and it was a nightmare for me when I played shardless. I might give something like that a try.

[NEELEY]

Whelp, just had my first poor run after the 2 3-2s.

BUG Planeswalkers (control style list with multiple LotV, JtMS, Last Hope, ashiok): 1-2
Shardless BUG: 1-2
Miracles: 1-2
Turbodepths: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 0-2

Miracles was almost a win, opp started game 3 with 2 minutes on the clock and nut drew removal for my Pithing Needle and (miraculously) found Entreat the angels as I was attacking for lethal and then cracked back for lethal. Perhaps I should have taken his cantrips with my Thoughtseizes (I took a from the ashes and a spell snare to resolve my bob). I also could have SFM'ed in a batterskull which would have put me out of lethal range sooner, but I got greedy and went with sword of Fire and Ice beats instead.

Not exactly sure what to change. I feel lingering souls would be much better vs control decks than knight, so maybe that's the first step. I remember playing against a dude who had 6 Hymns (with 2 being Gerrard's Verdict), and it was a nightmare for me when I played shardless. I might give something like that a try.

Lingering souls is great, especially since other are playing moat in their miracles sideboard

[ironclad8690]

http://i.imgur.com/AnBNEhw.png

So I managed a 4-1 after switching Knight to Lingering Souls, adding 2 Disfigures in my sideboard (mostly for shaman mirrors), and -1 Choke +1 Chains of Mephistopheles (only 3 tix!) I found chains to be extremely effective in each match I used it in, and I might just play 2 instead of choke (and I <3 me some choke)

Lands: (timed him out as above ^_^) 0-1
BUG Walkers Nic Fit: 2-0
4c Friedman Delver: 2-0
Elves: 0-2
BUG Delver: 2-0

Crushing delver like there is no tomorrow feels way too good. There is still a little bit of clunk in the deck I am trying to work though (mostly basic forest), but I am feeling close to optimal at this point. SB could probably use some Leyline of the Void for the odd BR deck.

[sdematt]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

63, Need two cuts :/ (Likely a SFM and the BS)

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

More flex, probably less overtly powerful, but thoughts? Sylvan is too much of a house to go below 2, and Truths is straight gas when you run out of cards.

[ironclad8690]

3-2 in another league:

Miracles: 1-2
Miracles: 2-1
Enchantress: 2-1
Elves: 1-2
Eldrazi: 2-0

Felt strong, just lost to elves because that matchup isn't great (probably 45%, maybe a little better) and he NO'd me pretty easily g1 and 3, and then I lost to a miracles deck playing multiple council's judgment and entreat. The games felt close, but the Miracle pilot was probably cool and collected right up to the 10 seconds he had left to win before timing out. There were definitely multiple lucky wear tears and snapcasters involved. Playing with equipment vs miralces is hard, because you can get blown out so easily. Still not exactly sure what to do with my decklist for that matchup. It used to be common wisdom that they have a hard time answers non-creatures, but between EE, Council's Judgment, and Wear/Tear (two of which have at least "3 more copies" because of snapcaster), it feels hard to get ANYTHING to stick. I am feeling the non-chalice blues for sure, at least that gives you a fighting chance. /endrant

Anyone here ever try really far-reaching stuff like Gloom, Trinisphere, Winter Orb, Tsunami, Armageddon, or anything else I'm not thinking of?

25 Matches, 55% win rate. Definitely improved once Souls hit the mix.

[sdematt]

Geddon, Boil, and a few other goodies are possibilities. It isnt easy.

[ironclad8690]

I always feel about 47% with junk vs miracles (probably because having 4 dead Swords to Plowshares g1).

I still haven't been brining in spellhomb to fight snapcasters, but maybe it's worth?

[sdematt]

I always feel about 47% with junk vs miracles (probably because having 4 dead Swords to Plowshares g1).

I still haven't been brining in spellhomb to fight snapcasters, but maybe it's worth?

It's not, Ooze is likely just better since at least it swings for 2.

I was running Sigarda as a 1-of, and it wasn't bad. Usually, I just feel like we get behind after they counter the first few spells, and that's why I played 3 Sylvan for so long. It's just so good.

-Matt

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'd play a 1st top before a 3rd library, but maybe that's just a personal thing...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[ironclad8690]

4-1 in tonight's league:

Miracles: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Grixis Delver: 2-0
4c Delver: 2-0
Infect: 1-2

Infect I made a bad keep g2:

Decay, Decay, Forest, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle

I never drew another land and my DRS got Dazed. Game 3 was more of a game, but eventually I was stuck with decays in hand and no way to deal with an inkmoth which invigorated and then Vines me to death. if I had mulled g2 to a hand that at least cast some removal spells, I should have been able to take him down. Better luck next time!

30 Matches, match win % 60

[sdematt]

4-1 in tonight's league:

Miracles: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Grixis Delver: 2-0
4c Delver: 2-0
Infect: 1-2

Infect I made a bad keep g2:

Decay, Decay, Forest, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle

I never drew another land and my DRS got Dazed. Game 3 was more of a game, but eventually I was stuck with decays in hand and no way to deal with an inkmoth which invigorated and then Vines me to death. if I had mulled g2 to a hand that at least cast some removal spells, I should have been able to take him down. Better luck next time!

30 Matches, match win % 60

Post your list again since the tweaks.

[ironclad8690]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingerig Souls

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is a lot closer to DGA than the Rock imo...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[ironclad8690]

Do you think I should post about it there instead?

[Claymore]

Deadguy is a close deck to this, but Deadguy revolves around the likes of Tidehollow, Mox, and Vial.

I will say that I've taken a very similar list to that to an Open in years past and just went 0-3 drop since it didn't have any meat, so it's interesting that this list can be successful now.

[ironclad8690]

My recent findings are that the "meat" just makes you weak to walkers. By having your meat go wide instead of tall (lingering souls), you present more of a problem for miracles, lands, and shardless.

Also, I believe souls combine better with Liliana for this equipment heavy version's puposes. Souls has always felt better with equips for me than Goyf because flying makes it easier to connect.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Deadguy is a close deck to this, but Deadguy revolves around the likes of Tidehollow, Mox, and Vial.

I will say that I've taken a very similar list to that to an Open in years past and just went 0-3 drop since it didn't have any meat, so it's interesting that this list can be successful now.
First, Sculler isn't considered a vital element within DGA, and mox is not in most lists, it's something Wilkin (a sourcer) plays a couple of, but definitely isn't a staple either. Dead guy can be summed up as a Lingering Souls, Bob and stoneforge list that runs a decent amount of discard including multiple lotv. A light splash of green isn't uncommon for an amount of Decays and the occasional sylvan library. Sculler is occasionally used, but not an auto-include.

I think its okay for now, but any less green and I think it's time for a thread change. Honestly, dropping Goyf is imo a bad decision. It's too good against eldrazi for it to be removed, especially when the rest of the entire deck can't stand up to a smasher.

[ironclad8690]

I haven't experienced eldrazi to be very hard to beat, but maybe I just haven't played the matchup enough. With the 4 swords, equip package, 3 Lili and 1 pulse I can almost always destroy what I need to or race in the sky (thanks to the souls and drs drain).

[KoDiamonds]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingerig Souls

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
Hey Ironclad, thanks for posting your league results. I actually just bought into the deck this past month (online and I'm 98% done in paper) and the success you've been having in your leagues only makes me even more satisfied with my deck choice and purchase. I've been playing legacy online whenever I can and I am surprised how much game this deck has. Prior to me posting, I just beat storm 2-0!

Anyway, this is the list that I've been cooking up and I just want to compare with you.

Lands (21)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution


Some notable differences.

1) You have 23 Lands and I have 21. I've never had any issues with the amount of mana. Just quality of mana (having awkward dual +wasteland openers and getting my dual wasted, leaving me with no colored sources). Maybe 22 is the magic number. I have 9 fetches and I could use a 10th. Just don't know what to cut.

2) You run no Tarmogoyfs. I am new to the format so I am not sure if that's correct but it sure is nice having a big fat body that can hold the ground and race against combo.

3) You have 1 Pulse main while I have 1 Toxic Deluge. I've been liking Deluge a lot so far since it gives us game against Elves, Empty the Warrens Tokens, Entreat the Angels Tokens, etc. while also being able to X for 1 against a deck like Shardless. Sweep up their Strix + DRS + Goyf is big game. Just seems more versatile than Pulse. But this is all preference and a meta call.

[ironclad8690]

1) You have 23 Lands and I have 21. I've never had any issues with the amount of mana. Just quality of mana (having awkward dual +wasteland openers and getting my dual wasted, leaving me with no colored sources). Maybe 22 is the magic number. I have 9 fetches and I could use a 10th. Just don't know what to cut.

2) You run no Tarmogoyfs. I am new to the format so I am not sure if that's correct but it sure is nice having a big fat body that can hold the ground and race against combo.

3) You have 1 Pulse main while I have 1 Toxic Deluge. I've been liking Deluge a lot so far since it gives us game against Elves, Empty the Warrens Tokens, Entreat the Angels Tokens, etc. while also being able to X for 1 against a deck like Shardless. Sweep up their Strix + DRS + Goyf is big game. Just seems more versatile than Pulse. But this is all preference and a meta call.

1) Yes, I felt 23 lands would be good because when Reid Duke played Jund he had 24 and my curve is just a little lower than his. I like having lots of land with a deck that doesn't have brainstorm.

2) I would probably play goyfs if I had them online, but Lingering is doing a pretty good impression. It just goes wide like pyro instead of tall like goyf. Also really helps the Lands matchup.

3) I like Pulse mainly because it kills Jace. Deluge is great if you don't run into miracles very often, but I encounter it so frequently I like having an out to Entreat and Jace all in one. COuld be deluge or vindicate too though.

[sdematt]

1) Yes, I felt 23 lands would be good because when Reid Duke played Jund he had 24 and my curve is just a little lower than his. I like having lots of land with a deck that doesn't have brainstorm.

2) I would probably play goyfs if I had them online, but Lingering is doing a pretty good impression. It just goes wide like pyro instead of tall like goyf. Also really helps the Lands matchup.

3) I like Pulse mainly because it kills Jace. Deluge is great if you don't run into miracles very often, but I encounter it so frequently I like having an out to Entreat and Jace all in one. COuld be deluge or vindicate too though.

Everyone please play more Sylvan Library, no need for any fancy Chains. 2-3 Sylvans and those matchups feel a lot better.

[ironclad8690]

I really prefer Chains when it comes to delver and shardless.

[damionblackgear]

1)2) I would probably play goyfs if I had them online, but Lingering is doing a pretty good impression. It just goes wide like pyro instead of tall like goyf. Also really helps the Lands matchup.


I actually hate the stare contest champ. If you're limited and would like to try something, Grim Flayer may be an alternative. I don't know that either actually compliments enough to warrant the slot in your list though. It would almost require a full retooling of your list.


Everyone please play more Sylvan Library, no need for any fancy Chains. 2-3 Sylvans and those matchups feel a lot better.

I do not enjoyed Library as much with the current meta. That being said, I don't necessarily enjoy Chains either. For filter I'm back to a 2;1 split in favor of Top. Blue decks have simply been Choked.

[KoDiamonds]

I posted my list earlier but here it is again.

Lands (21)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

I think 21 lands is too greedy and I need to cut a mainboard card. I was thinking either a Deathrite, a bob, or a goyf. What are peoples thoughts? Or should I stick with 21 lands?

[sdematt]

I posted my list earlier but here it is again.

Lands (21)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

I think 21 lands is too greedy and I need to cut a mainboard card. I was thinking either a Deathrite, a bob, or a goyf. What are peoples thoughts? Or should I stick with 21 lands?

Play the extra land, go to 61, relax and enjoy yourself.

[damionblackgear]

I think 21 lands is too greedy and I need to cut a mainboard card. I was thinking either a Deathrite, a bob, or a goyf. What are peoples thoughts? Or should I stick with 21 lands?

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull

you're threat light as it is. removing a creature doesn't seem like a good idea to me. try a piece of the discard package instead. I'd go with a thoughseize as you're running 4 shaman. It can go to the board and be safe there ;)

[KoDiamonds]

To keep the thread active, Ill post an update that I'll stick with the 21 lands for now with 4 DRS. My friend said even miracles runs 20-22 so i should be able to get by with 21.

[montoy]

imo, i think 21 is good, most of the time drs gives us the mana we need.
i also run 21, if you will get mana screwed you will.
also junks curve is 2-3.
we can live with 2 and still do what we are supposed to do.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I normally play 18 lands, but I also give my wastelands spell slots, so technically 22. 61 cards always.

[kinda]

I'm looking to build a rock deck, this is what I have so far:

4 Drs
3 crop rotation
3 gsz
3 kotr
4 NO
2 loam
1 teeg
1 progenitus
1 ruric thar
1 scavenging ooze
1 centaur vinecrasher
1 tireless tracker
1 qasali pridemage
1 dueling grounds
3 abrupt decay
3 cabal therapy or collective brutality
2 sylvan library

35

3 thespian stage
1 dark depths
2 cycle lands
1 ghost quarter
1 boseiju
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
2 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
4 windswept Heath
4 verdant catacombs
1 dryad arbor
2 Savannah (shock or borrow)
1 bayou (shock or borrow)

26

[KoDiamonds]

Hey guys, I would like some more deckbuilding advice. First, here's my list for reference.

Lands (21)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution


After playing a fair amount of matches and getting familiar with the deck, I've noticed that Lingering Souls just breaks matchups against fair decks. I am going to fold to combo so I might as well strengthen my main deck towards the fair matchups. That being said, I only run 2 Lingering Souls and I would like to up the count to 3. What should I cut? Here are my options.

1) Sword of Fire and Ice. I am leaning towards this one since it doesn't cut my creature or removal count. Plus, it's the weakest equipment in the deck and I never tutor for it with Mystics. I would just rather tutor for a Batterskull or Jitte. It's not bad having a 3rd equipment since I did run into a game where I had both equipments already in hand but at that point, I feel like SoF&I is overkill. It also doesn't screw with my curve with Dark Confidant.

2) Dark Confidant. I think cutting bob is wrong, but I feel like I can cut him and go down to 3 to run a card that is literal card advantage. Aka, cutting a creature that nets me card advantage for a card that is literally a 4 for 1.

3) Swords to Plowshares. I run 7 discard spells, 4 Decays, 1 Deluge, 3 Lillys. I don't like cutting another removal spell but maybe it's worth it for a 3rd souls.

So what are people's opinions? Which card should I cut for a 3rd Lingering Souls? Or is 2 fine? Thanks everyone for the help.

[KoDiamonds]

So my friend made a suggestion about my previous post. First off, he suggested cutting a Hymn to Tourach since 7 discard spells is a lot.

He also suggested that instead of a 3rd Lingering Souls, I should run 1 Bitterblossom. What are peoples opinions on these changes? I am pretty iffy on this card since Abrupt Decay is a thing. Not to mention, getting the flyers immediately in contrast to waiting over the course of a couple turns + life is a drawback.

[sdematt]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

This is what I'm running. As always, I find Liliana extremely lackluster most of the time, since ditching cards sucks, but with Lingering Souls, it's obviously breaking parity there. My thought to that are moreso along the lines of "fuck it" and I'm running more card draw, since Liliana doesn't beat Miracles, but drawing more cards certainly can.

I think I'm fine cutting back to two Equipment, but I guess there's always the option of going down a discard slot, perhaps cutting Hymn entirely and just maxing Therapies, then playing another Sword of bringing back the Batterskull. Uncertain, but I can't get in a ton of games to test. Cutting Fire and Ice seems pretty iffy, considering it's the best Sword. If the new black STP gives Shardless a ton of ground, going back to SoLaS/SoFF or just a second Jitte seems good as well, but I'd never cut SoFI.

My two cents. Merry Xmas/Happy New Year/etc.

[KoDiamonds]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

This is what I'm running. As always, I find Liliana extremely lackluster most of the time, since ditching cards sucks, but with Lingering Souls, it's obviously breaking parity there. My thought to that are moreso along the lines of "fuck it" and I'm running more card draw, since Liliana doesn't beat Miracles, but drawing more cards certainly can.

I think I'm fine cutting back to two Equipment, but I guess there's always the option of going down a discard slot, perhaps cutting Hymn entirely and just maxing Therapies, then playing another Sword of bringing back the Batterskull. Uncertain, but I can't get in a ton of games to test. Cutting Fire and Ice seems pretty iffy, considering it's the best Sword. If the new black STP gives Shardless a ton of ground, going back to SoLaS/SoFF or just a second Jitte seems good as well, but I'd never cut SoFI.

My two cents. Merry Xmas/Happy New Year/etc.

Thanks for your list and advice.

A) How do you like 3 bobs? Thats the card I am leaning towards cutting atm since I think cutting my 3rd Hymn is wrong.

B) Lillys have been amazing for me. She pressures the opponent so well and you can discard the extra discard spells late game when needed.

C) How do you like not having Batterskull in your list? It wins me so many games that I cant imagine not having one, even if mystic dies.

[sdematt]

Thanks for your list and advice.

A) How do you like 3 bobs? Thats the card I am leaning towards cutting atm since I think cutting my 3rd Hymn is wrong.

B) Lillys have been amazing for me. She pressures the opponent so well and you can discard the extra discard spells late game when needed.

C) How do you like not having Batterskull in your list? It wins me so many games that I cant imagine not having one, even if mystic dies.

A) I've played 3 Bobs on and off for a while and it's totally fine, especially if you're supplementing with Painful Truths and Sylvans. You want as many Bobs and Sylvans against Miracles as you can, but it's good.

B) Yeah, she's fine, I agree, but Painful has been much better. I like Liliana much more in Jund where you break the parity a lot more.

c) I've played without Batterskull since it was printed. I just don't like Batterskull in non-Brainstorm decks that aren't Vintage Shops.

[Megadeus]

Anyone still play the rock? Or is it just bad Grixis at this point because no brainstorm?

[Whitefaces]

Anyone still play the rock? Or is it just bad Grixis at this point because no brainstorm?

The rock is nothing like Grixis?

[sdematt]

Anyone still play the rock? Or is it just bad Grixis at this point because no brainstorm?

It doesn't lose to Miracles as much...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Fatal Push is what has me off it these days. It's fine, but where I live, not tons of higher end players, so very few top tier legacy lists = more low-end non-blue lists playing new standard cards.

[Megadeus]

Fatal push seemsmediocre against this deck, especially if you're on the souls plan. Makes your stone forge and her weapons better because less decay possibly. Dunno. Seems not too different to me

[KoDiamonds]

Applies in modern as well where Lingering Souls should trump Fatal Push. I mean it does kill DRS, SFM, Bob, and Goyf but Bolt killed everything but goyf also. Decks aren't going to run more removal spells, but probably supplement their package with Push. No big deal. Doesn't kill more than 1 spirit token so its fine.

So what do people think of Scavenging Ooze as a sideboard card? My anti-graveyard cards are 2 Surgical Extractions and 1 Grafdigger's Cage. I'm seeing a lot of B/R Reanimator a lot online and Scavenging Ooze just seems way too slow. Is there another card that's fast enough against this deck that I can run? Or having a repeatable exile effect like Scooze worth it to have in the board?

[Tokugawa]

So what do people think of Scavenging Ooze as a sideboard card? My anti-graveyard cards are 2 Surgical Extractions and 1 Grafdigger's Cage. I'm seeing a lot of B/R Reanimator a lot online and Scavenging Ooze just seems way too slow. Is there another card that's fast enough against this deck that I can run? Or having a repeatable exile effect like Scooze worth it to have in the board?
Leyline of void.

[sdematt]

Applies in modern as well where Lingering Souls should trump Fatal Push. I mean it does kill DRS, SFM, Bob, and Goyf but Bolt killed everything but goyf also. Decks aren't going to run more removal spells, but probably supplement their package with Push. No big deal. Doesn't kill more than 1 spirit token so its fine.

So what do people think of Scavenging Ooze as a sideboard card? My anti-graveyard cards are 2 Surgical Extractions and 1 Grafdigger's Cage. I'm seeing a lot of B/R Reanimator a lot online and Scavenging Ooze just seems way too slow. Is there another card that's fast enough against this deck that I can run? Or having a repeatable exile effect like Scooze worth it to have in the board?

Mise a maindeck Ooze. Play 2-3 Surgicals in the side. Feel alive again.

[KoDiamonds]

Leyline of void.

Leyline occupies way too many sideboard slots. Unless you are implying I cut Grafdigger's Cage and 2 Surgicals for 3x. But I feel like Surgicals can also be used in other matchups.

[Megadeus]

Playing this list tomorrow at my monthly because I'm bored of Maverick. Would probably be better off with Goyfs, but fuck it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
2 Stone forge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls
3 Siege Rhino
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrybland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
1 Duress
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Armageddon
1 Wilt Lief Liege
1 Dromokas Command
1 Garruk Relentless

[KoDiamonds]

Playing this list tomorrow at my monthly because I'm bored of Maverick. Would probably be better off with Goyfs, but fuck it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
2 Stone forge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls
3 Siege Rhino
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrybland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
1 Duress
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Armageddon
1 Wilt Lief Liege
1 Dromokas Command
1 Garruk Relentless

How do you like Faerie Macabrre? It seems great against BR reanimator since they run Chancellor of the Annex postboard vs us.

[Megadeus]

I've been on Macabre since before BR got good. It's only gotten better for me. I'm actually sad now because people actually expect it.

Got top 4 at my monthly. 3-0-double ID onto top 8 then win in top 8 draw in top 4 for beer and BBQ. List was pretty tuned to beat up on fair decks. Beat Maverick, Reid Duke GP deck, Michael Majors BUG deck, double ID, crush Reid Duke GP list again. Paincestral Recall was awesome. Boarded out 4 thought seize every match. Deck felt great. Nice True Name. Here's a Rhino. Fuck you

[KoDiamonds]

I've been on Macabre since before BR got good. It's only gotten better for me. I'm actually sad now because people actually expect it.

Got top 4 at my monthly. 3-0-double ID onto top 8 then win in top 8 draw in top 4 for beer and BBQ. List was pretty tuned to beat up on fair decks. Beat Maverick, Reid Duke GP deck, Michael Majors BUG deck, double ID, crush Reid Duke GP list again. Paincestral Recall was awesome. Boarded out 4 thought seize every match. Deck felt great. Nice True Name. Here's a Rhino. Fuck you

Congrats on your tournament results! I must say, your list has more of a maverick feel to it with Knight of the Reliquarys and Revokers but no Hymns, Lillys, or Bobs. How do you like Painful Truths over something like Dark Confidant?

[Megadeus]

Getting the cards all immediately is pretty nice. Plus you don't have to worry about mana costs. I think the only issue I have with my current list is the lack of real threats at two mana. Probably will up the stone forge count. I just like the flexibility that Revoker and knight give me. As for hymn, I just hate top decking discard in the late game. If I were to add hymn it would probably be at the expense of like revokers. Revoker is much better to top deck in the mid to late game

[KoDiamonds]

Getting the cards all immediately is pretty nice. Plus you don't have to worry about mana costs. I think the only issue I have with my current list is the lack of real threats at two mana. Probably will up the stone forge count. I just like the flexibility that Revoker and knight give me. As for hymn, I just hate top decking discard in the late game. If I were to add hymn it would probably be at the expense of like revokers. Revoker is much better to top deck in the mid to late game
Hymn to Tourach is what drew me to the deck. And Ive won plenty of matchs vs Storm off of a T2 Hymn. It just makes that matchup actually winnable. And 2 for 1ing vs fair matchups is exactly what you want to do as well.

I am tempted to jam some Painful truths in my list as well since it does seem really really. I am just not a fan of cutting my Bobs since once hes gone, my deck becomes super threat light. At least bob can swing and carry a sword so I feel like he's better overall in the deck.

[sdematt]

Hymn to Tourach is what drew me to the deck. And Ive won plenty of matchs vs Storm off of a T2 Hymn. It just makes that matchup actually winnable. And 2 for 1ing vs fair matchups is exactly what you want to do as well.

I am tempted to jam some Painful truths in my list as well since it does seem really really. I am just not a fan of cutting my Bobs since once hes gone, my deck becomes super threat light. At least bob can swing and carry a sword so I feel like he's better overall in the deck.

What you want is Bob, AND Sylvan, AND Truths. Mix it up.

[Megadeus]

What you want is Bob, AND Sylvan, AND Truths. Mix it up.

Agreed. A mix is good. I wish that playing some sort of guy at 2 or three that gained life was good. Kitchen Finks, Nighthawk, or a 2 drop with lifelink like that 2/2 Kithkin would be really nice to ensure that in the mid game you can cast truths.

[maharis]

Agreed. A mix is good. I wish that playing some sort of guy at 2 or three that gained life was good. Kitchen Finks, Nighthawk, or a 2 drop with lifelink like that 2/2 Kithkin would be really nice to ensure that in the mid game you can cast truths.

This may not be good enough, but it is a new option.

http://magiccards.info/aer/en/61.html

Souls + Batterskull/Jitte/SoLaS can also take some pressure off. In fact, if Fatal Pushes start flying around everywhere, Lingering Souls might be a good option. Just gotta watch out for Dread of Night.

[sdematt]

This may not be good enough, but it is a new option.

http://magiccards.info/aer/en/61.html

Souls + Batterskull/Jitte/SoLaS can also take some pressure off. In fact, if Fatal Pushes start flying around everywhere, Lingering Souls might be a good option. Just gotta watch out for Dread of Night.

I think you have to run Souls now anyway to try and grind against Shardless/midrange BUG and Miracles.

[KoDiamonds]

Hey guys, heres a little tourney report from a legacy side event at GP SJ. Heres the list. As a precursor, I apologize about typos since I am typing this on my phone.
Lands (21)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

Round 1 (1-2) vs Stifle Dreadnaught with Delver and Lavamancer.
I won game 1. My opponent cracked 3 Standstills and still became hellbent. Grinded through with confidants and decayed/pathed all his threats.
Game 2 he t2 stiflenaughted and i didnt draw removal.
Game 3 i hymn t2, he forces. He then goes torpor orb. I play a threat. He casts double dreadnaught. My turn i cast choke to bait a counter spell. Path a dreadnaught, opponent casts the charm that phases out an artifact. Decay the other dreadnaught. Dont draw any more removal and lose.

Round 2 (2-0) vs goblins.
On the play i go t1 DRS.
OpT1 play Rishadan Port
My T2, I cast Jitte.
Opt2 play badlands and pass
My t3 equip jitte and swing.
Opponent concedes.

I am new to legacy and have no idea what hes playing. I pretend to board some cards in but I play my main 60.
Game 2 he goes t1 lackey, t2 lackey. I stabilize the board with drs and bob and my opponent with nothing after Toxic Deluge. I flip decay, lilly, and im down to 2 life. My opponent passes the turn. On my upkeep, i swords my bob with trigger on stack. Reveal lingering souls (up to 4, down to 1). Life totals are 23-1 at that point. I swing with Lingering Souls tokens while i kill everything my opponent plays from there on.

Round 3 (2-0) vs death and taxes.
Game 1 was a huge grind fest with the monarch token going back and forth. My opponent made a mistake of equipping jitte with crusader and using all 4 counters to kill my drs and bob and gain life (opponent was at 2 life) i equip jitte to my goyf, swing, kill his crusader.
Game 2 my opponent goes t1 vial.
I go t1 thoughtseize. See thalia, revoker, crusader, flickerwisp, something expensive. No lands. I take crusader.
OpT2 my opponent draws and passes.
My t2, cast pithing needle naming vial and drs.
OpT3, no land.
I cast jitte, next turn equip, swing, opp scoops.

Round 4 vs ANT (0-2 technically but we split)
Game 1 my opponent casts both LEDS.
i cast thoughtseize and see dark ritual, cabal ritual, tendrils, brainstorm. Opponent only has bayou in hand. What do you take?

I took brainstorm. Opponent draws spells and tendrils me for 14. I try to get a board presence but my opponent topdecks probe into tendrils and im at 4 after gaining as much life as i could from DRS but no creatures were left.

Overall deck felt great. Probably run it back agaim tomorrow.

[damionblackgear]

Round 4 vs ANT (0-2 technically but we split)
Game 1 my opponent casts both LEDS.
i cast thoughtseize and see dark ritual, cabal ritual, tendrils, brainstorm. Opponent only has bayou in hand. What do you take?

You take dark ritual. Your opponent doesn't have blue mana. Or a secondary source. Dark ritual is their only spell.

[KoDiamonds]

So I ran the same list again today and went 4-0!!!!

Round 1 (2-1) vs. The Mirror.
First time playing the mirror. First 2 games were wastelanding eachother to where we couldnt play. Game 3 was just a topdeck war and I drew my threats and removal while my opponent was stick with a Golgari charm in hand and I didnt draw my bobs or souls.

Round 2 (2-1) vs. Miracles.
Game 1 he draws more removal than i have threats and Monastery Mentor + 2 tops is a quick clock.
Game 2 he doesnt draw enough terminus to deal with lingering souls x2.
Game 3 is absolutely sick. I go t2 chains, t3 choke, t4 garruk. Comes to a point where I am making a wolf token per turn, a lilly on 4, and a maelstrom pulse in hand. Opponent has jace. I figure the only way i lose this game is if my opponent topdecks entreat so I just keep pulse in hand. Opponent Vcliques my pulse away and kills garruk. I minus lilly and pressure with more souls and equipment and win.

Round 3(2-1) vs Grixis Delver
Game 1 opponent just has the nuts. Delver, flip, daze, force backup and i lose.
Game 2 i dont remember but my opponent just was in a losing position from the get go and he couldnt recover from being on the back foot.
Game 3 I zealous persecution his Young pyromancer and elementals and jitte equip seals the deal.

Round 4 (2-1) vs Bug midrange.
Lose game 1 after he wastes my lands away and i cant play.
Games 2 and 3 i just outgrind him with lillys and souls. Kill everything, make him sac truename. Chains locks him out game 3 when he has jace and a sylvan library.

Overall, this deck is amazing. I never thought I could go undefeated at a legacy event with this deck but man. Feels good .

[Megadeus]

Gonna try a creature heavy list that attempts to simply overwhelm the influx of fatal push and uses thalia to slow down the cantrip decks. Maybe just worse than lingering souls and painful truths, but I really like Rallier. This dude is sick. Revoker is helpful because Deathrite is one of the better things against you, plus it's good against combo.

3 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Renegade Rallier
3 Siege Rhino
3 Restoration Angel

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

[lavafrogg]

With the new black swords to plowshares, is there a strong enough reason to run white?

I am currently trying to streamline to a stable GB mana base with more basics.