PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] The Rock



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32

Magicsk8ngenius
01-31-2011, 05:46 PM
hey Spikey, I'm staying at the Embassy suites like a block from the convention center on washington. I've learned if you book forever in advance you can get a pretty sweet price on a nice hotel. Why would you play a bant deck?!

Anyways I haven't tested dueling grounds out at all and I am pretty skeptical. It seems like I'd just rather have another piece of removal - another deed in it's spot. Deed is the nuts against merfolk especially. I'm all for the E.tutor board though, I especially like getting more access to deeds as well as canonist. I'm gonna have to test it all out this week.

Extirpate is horrible vs. merfolk - end of story. Even plague is better which is bad still. I disagree with taking out the vindicates also. I'd drop a creature before getting rid of a removal.

SpikeyMikey
01-31-2011, 08:16 PM
Because the version of Rock that I ran until Survival was banned matches up poorly with aggro. The Bant deck I'm playing slaughters Fish, is even to positive against Goblins depending on build (ditto Zoo) and packs Force of Will which gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. It's also got better threat density than Rock and it's capable of explosive, game-ending plays.

I slacked on reserving the rooms this time. For KC, I had rooms 3 or 4 weeks in advance, this time I got them Saturday afternoon. But I have a rewards account with LQ, so I always shoot for one if I can. Good waffles too. You going to be there for Standard? I'm starting to think I might just draft on Saturday. One of the guys I was going with is getting a playset of MBS but he cancelled on the tourney today and I'm not shelling out $100 for the Standard cards I would need for T2 Rock.

Also, Dueling Grounds is necessary against Goblins since they can easily recover from Deeds and can often go lethal on turn 3 to 4, even through discard. Gounds is basically a guaranteed win. You remove Coralhelm or Siege-Gang and they'll never have anything big enough to punch through your KotR while they're forced to chump every turn to keep you from swinging for lethal. And since you are using Knight and Top to thin and pick so you keep drawing gas and eventually lock them out. Assuming you don't run Elspeth. I did, which meant eventually I find her and fly over. It's a slow I-win but it's a sure I win, the popular splash for tribal right now is black so they can't remove Grounds.

sdematt
01-31-2011, 09:50 PM
Grounds is good against Fish, no doubt. Against Gobbos, they just have to find Siege Gang, which makes me sad.

Welcome back, Spikey. Want to post the list for Bant?

-Matt

Magicsk8ngenius
02-01-2011, 01:16 AM
If anyone wants an amusing read, Brian Demars did a tournament report for our local legacy tournament and I was in a feature matchup playing Titan Rock. It's up at starcity's website here's the link.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/21046_Vintage_AvantGarde_Looking_Local_Wednesday_Night_Legacy.html


I'm the feature round 3 (Jason Golembiewski). While it sucks our match ended in a draw, it was still a fun time. Drew, my opponent is a cool guy. I think the main reason we went to time was because we kept stopping for Brian to catch up... But whatever I still made top 8 per usual.

Philipp2293
02-01-2011, 02:15 AM
Hi, I just read the report and wanted to mention the deck here. How was the overall performance (obviously good), when did the deck shine, where had it problems, what would you change?

I might grab some Sun Titans, it looks like a blast to play.

Magicsk8ngenius
02-01-2011, 02:33 AM
Shines: vs. anything aggro, even though zoo seems it would have a better chance than tribal aggro, I seem to do best with it against zoo, maybe because they don't swarm.
Problems: Dedicated control, landstill is pretty bad and the counterbalance matchup is actually okay, going from slightly unfavored preboard to slightly favored post.

I've already made some changes and you can see the current list on the previous page. As it turns out Veteran Explorer is bossssssss. Usually how it starts is game 1 they are happy to see it chump block or die to therapy or any other way because they get 2 lands. Game 2 they realize how important it is and it ends up being a swords target - either way I don't see a down side here. I've added more vets and some KoTR just for some added beats/accel.

The best part about the deck is that it is fun to play. If your discard package did it's job and rid them of the swords to plowshares/path to exiles, titan roams free and smashes. Recurring deed every turn with titan to clear the board before blockers wins a lot of games. I keep getting top 8 or better with the deck everytime I play it at my local legacy tournament, so it is working for me.

SpikeyMikey
02-01-2011, 02:23 PM
Grounds is good against Fish, no doubt. Against Gobbos, they just have to find Siege Gang, which makes me sad.

Welcome back, Spikey. Want to post the list for Bant?

-Matt

They need a lot of mana to burn you out with SGC. Once Grounds is down, you're basically holding all removal for SGC because it's their only threat. Unless they've got Vial at 5 with Sharpshooter and you're kind of low, SGC won't get there.

I can PM you the listing but it would be a little odd to post it in this thread :)

sdematt
02-01-2011, 10:24 PM
PM it to me :D

-Matt

FieryBalrog
02-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Sorry I haven't been on for the past few days, school and such. But, I did manage to (basically) take down the local once-a-month Legacy tournament.

Firstly, my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate



Did you leave Top off your list? You were playing it in your reports :p

Interesting, so no Moxes? How's that worked out? Also, how do you like Extirpate? I've been really hesitant to get them just because it seems really bad now that Survival's gone.

sdematt
02-02-2011, 05:05 PM
I was playing Tops, I'm pretty sure I accidentally left them out of the list.

No Moxes has worked out fine, thus far. Sure, I don't get the chance of as busted of turn 1 plays, but I've upped the actual land count, and gotten more spells in return. I've cracked the numbers and even with the loss of 3 Moxes and the addition of 2 Deed 1 EE, I've only raised my curve .2.

I really like having the extra spells rather than Mox. There are advantages to Mox, no doubt. Turn 1 Hymn is busted, but hands with Mox need to be more land heavy to be really good. Playing a 2-drop on turn one is good, but then stalling out on lands sucks. Nicely curving and dropping spells and lands on turns 1-3 is really good. If you watch the SCG Boston coverage, many of the Rock players drop a turn 1 bomb, followed by 1-2 turns of doing nothing, or even more. So far though, I've been happy with it.

@ Extirpate

This is my grave-hate slot. It was really awesome when Survival was in, and I think right now it's still decent. I bring it in against Loam based decks (where removing Loam usually kicks them in the balls really hard), Dredge (removing Bridges or Dread return can be very handy), Combo (removing Infernal tutor or LED so they can't IGGY loop), or Rock Mirror (removing their duals, Goyf, Vindicates, Hymns, etc.). I guess this could be 3 Crypts or something, but Extirpate can't be countered and it takes a whole card out of the deck. Most permanent based grave-hate can be hated out, ex. Ichorid playing Nature's claim, etc. For now, it isn't too bad at all, but I'm sure you could replace it with Nihil Spellbomb/Crypt if you so chose. As well, nuking a whole graveyard nerfs your Goyfs, whereas taking out one card may not matter AS much to Goyf.

-Matt

Dzra
02-02-2011, 05:50 PM
I'm completely sold on Extirpate. It's the best GY hate in my opinion. It's hard to fight against (must be Seized/Duressed, but that usually comes too late), it doesn't advertise itself (Crypt, Spellbomb, and Relic all sit there), it plays well with Goyf, and it's very versatile (removing wincons/removal from dedicated control decks is amazing).

As for Dueling Grounds VS Engineered Plague... more testing is needed, but so far I'm liking Plague better. Against Goblins, which is an amazingly problematic MU, a resolved Dueling Grounds will buy you time, but don't doubt that Goblins has a better late game than you. Matron, Ringleader, Piledriver, Kiki-jiki, Seige-gang, Gempalm, and Warren Weirding are all very dangerous cards which will still continue to hurt you through a Dueling Grounds.

Also, if you're thinking about taking this deck to a big tournament, Mox Diamonds are 100% required in my opinion. With the number of Aether Vial/Wasteland decks out there now, three color decks are just begging to be punished.

warai
02-02-2011, 06:01 PM
Engineered Plague > Dueling Grounds. It stops one of the worst matchups against Goblins (Tier 1 deck).

I agree with you, extirpate is the best GY hate printed. The main question I think is what other card would you put in sideboard to help Extirpate. Faeries Macabre? Yixlid Jailer? I think it should depend if your meta is full of Dredge or not.

Also, 2 or 3 Thrun, the last Troll Main Deck/Sideboard is an amazing (!) adition against Countertop decks. What do you guys think of it?

Dzra
02-02-2011, 06:08 PM
I run a Bojuka Bog MD now to help Extirpate, but if you see a lot of Dredge, a Jailer or two seems good.

I've liked Cold-Eyed Selkies against Control MUs a lot, but I probably need to get around to testing Thrun, the Last Troll. I love Selkies, but they probably fall under "cute" when compared to Thrun. I can't begin to think of how a control/midranged deck would go about answering him.

damionblackgear
02-02-2011, 06:30 PM
I'm a fan of the thought that, "Troll's are good for what they hold." So, if you are intending to play a troll in your build that you give it a piece of equipment to swing around. Personally, I would suggest Body and Mind right now. It'll give you an answer to active Thopters and still give you a blocker for Merfolk decks since 2 damage isn't enough most of the time.

Dzra
02-02-2011, 06:48 PM
An unkillable 4/4 seems pretty good by itself. I'd rather use the equipment slots for Extirpates which work twice as well against Thopters.

Rainbow Maker
02-02-2011, 09:07 PM
dueling vs. plague is preference imo. You said matron, sgc, piledriver, (incinerator is rarely hardcasted, i'll leave it out for the plague argument.) ringleader, and kiki-jiki. Most lists don't run jiki anymore but the only thing plague kills out of those is matron, but they still get to tutor. By default grounds shuts of piledriver. All they need to do is tutor up a chieftan and you are in a bad spot. however grounds are bad in duplicates. they're both good. It comes down to preference. Also if you were scared about a cb lock being assembled you coul also use extirpate to go ahead and shuffle their library. I am currently trying spellbomb over the extirpates. they're both good.

damionblackgear
02-02-2011, 10:33 PM
An unkillable 4/4 seems pretty good by itself. I'd rather use the equipment slots for Extirpates which work twice as well against Thopters.

True a 4/4 that they can't target is nice but, you have to get around Goyf, Knight, those thopters game 1, or the plethora of other things that just outclass him. The Troll needs to either have something to swing into those issues or to have a way to make sure those issues are resolved before/as it is doing what it does. *this is the edit*Also, Perish exists and is sided in by every deck that plays it in this matchup.

As far as the sword goes, I'm talking about in the main. I don't like the Extirpate slot in the main. I've never found it to be that helpful and right now graveyard based strategy's aren't that prevalent in the overall meta so it almost seems to be a localized choice. Granted, there are a lot of people talking about playing 43-Lands in Indy but I'd rather have the one that gets around majority of the played creatures and leave a blocker for them. I'll deal with the graveyards post-board.

*I just want to preemptively shut down the argument that I feel is coming since I mentioned Lands above. Sword does mill more lands and get them to their Life(s) faster. Yes, the Troll does get around Maze. reasoning, troll costs 4. It's not something that you'll easily be able to get to. As Matt said, a lot of the time the Rock players playing the more modernized rock decks aren't really doing anything turn 2 after an explosive turn 1. It happens and they'll be happy to help you by wasting your manabase they you tried to adjust to. Maze is also not the way they'll try and stop you, they'll use Glacial Chasm to stop all damage to them. that means troll's shut down and swords are no good. Yes, you can use a wasteland and I encourage you to... at the end of their turn, off of a knight if you can. Remember though, that's only going to get The Troll through most likely. So plan it accordingly and make it count.

-----

Plague vs D. Grounds -

Vs gobo's you'd rather have the plague. If you can land 2 it's over as the standardized build has more creature control than most other decks. Kill the Cheiftan and move on with life. 1 also means that you don't have to keep such a powerful eye on the SGC since his token's are most likely dead. you leave them with Piledriver, Lords, SGC, and Ringleader. That's not going to be enough if you're forcing them to block you as well. Gobo's win's by putting a swarm on the board. it doesn't need to be attacking you with said swarms (That's just a usual side effect).

Vs Merfolk, you're going to want grounds. Making them swing 1 at a time is what that deck doesn't want. It wins by lowering your life total as fast as possible. They're terrible team gets to do damage with 2's and 3's and when you're just counting to 20 that can add up fast. That's why you limit them to how fast they do things (get body's out there or attack). Without that speed they don't do well. That's the reason the lords secondary abilities make the deck work. Being un-blockable, tapping blockers, and flying give the deck reach when people start to recover against them. Dualing grounds may only slow them but that is time for you to control and put them on a defensive (Not to mention Maze is amazing when only 1 can attack... until it's wasted).

Honestly, I would rather have E.Plagues since Folk is the easier match. We can deal with folk by baiting them into letting our spells resolve. Use your hand to pull the counters to get the cards you need down. I wouldn't board it in against folk though. I think that the deck is solid enough to deal with that deck already.

This is also just my 2cents.

sdematt
02-02-2011, 10:49 PM
If VV was still popular, I would be behind Extirpate in the main. If Lands starts to dominate like that, then I'd advocate it. But for now, I'd say it should stay in the side.

I'm wondering if Aggro-Loam will also come back. It's in the right colours to trounce aggro, and can be changed/tweaked to do well against Combo/Control. I'm pretty sure the matchup is in our favour, but I'm wondering if it will come back, and if so, when. I wouldn't mind having another good matchup :D

-Matt

Dzra
02-03-2011, 01:10 AM
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. ;p I wasn't talking about Troll or Extirpate in the MD. I meant that given the limited deck space, I'd rather have Extirpates g2 and g3 against Thopters than equipment. You probably aren't going to be seeing Goyf/KotR and Thopters in the same build anyways. The popular variants right now are WUG(r) and WUB, so both will be running Swords MD. That combined with our already low creature count makes equipment a liability against Countertop imo.

Back to Eplague, yeah my bad on the Piledriver, brain fart. Dueling Grounds is probably somewhat better than a single Plague, but 2 Plagues means the game is yours. I'll get more testing with DG in sometime, but either way the only MU I'd hate to see more would be TES.

I rarely have much trouble with Folk after boarding, so that's not too much of an issue. Their CA is abysmal compared to ours or Goblins, so one solid Deed will probably get there.

Rainbow Maker
02-03-2011, 03:08 PM
i should also tell you why i like it better since my list is a whole lot different than most peoples. I'm using 2 mystics to search up a jitte or a sofi. after this i have 2 flex creature slots. I want to run elspeth but if if i do it brings my average cmc for my spells to 2. so if i add an elspeth i might add an extra land. I should test elspeth as it makes equipments better.

sdematt
02-03-2011, 07:05 PM
Running Elspeth as a 1-2 of is a very good call, I think. It's a solid card that craps tokens or sends even Bob into the red zone. I approve.

-Matt

sdematt
02-07-2011, 01:04 AM
Any news from anyone?

-Matt

ForlornEgoist
02-07-2011, 01:33 AM
Curious as to how many people, like me, have opted for the Stoneforge Toolbox.

I would assume much of the reluctance to run it is that while it shines when we want to be aggro it eats spaces for when we want to play control. While I can readily understand the desire to retain the 6 slots for acceleration (Mox) and control cards, I ultimately think that our deck isn't one that wants to stall out a game so adding more threats seems like a solid way to go.

Like I just said, when I made the xfer from Deadguy I wasn't content to limit myself to 8 threats (since Bob most of the time hangs back if they have a creature on the field). So I decided to retain the Stoneforge toolbox, opting to drop the 3 Mox spots, 2 Verdicts, and a Deed.

In regards to Moxes I think that it essentially breaks down to personal flavor. I've used them and yeah I found the acceleration to be amazing and liked how they helped to mana fix (which is especially helpful for KotR) but I also didn't like how dead of a card they become later in the game nor was I overly fond of having them die to Deed. So while I won't tell another Rock player not to use them they're just not for me.

The Verdicts I honestly don't think are necessary. I hear so many players say, "But they either ping two relevant cards from an opponent who doesn't want us to get life or we target ourselves and gain life! Win-win." The issue with this is that in either situation if you're at that point where you need to target yourself or the opponent cares enough to not let you gain that life you're already in a position where you're going to lose. Is it amazing when you encounter that situation where you're about to die, gain 8 life off it, then come back for a win? Yes. But you need to think to yourself: How often do I actually encounter that situation? Would I of gotten there if instead of drawing 1/2 Verdicts I had drawn a Deed/EE or some form of targeted removal? This similarly is a personal flavor card; although unlike Mox I think the deck is powerful enough where you shouldn't have to fall back on cards like this to save you.

The Deed I cut was because I'm currently seeing a lot of decks in my meta where it is less amazing.

The Stoneforge toolbox is incredibly useful because it guarantees you 2 situational swords and 1 answer-all equipment. The general accepted toolbox (or the most common, anyway) is as follows: 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Sword of Light and Shadow. Jitte is great regardless of what you throw it, and in many instances I have even tutored it up simply because I didn't have a Vindicate in hand and wanted to remove an opposing on Jitte. Then there are the Sword effects: Pro Blue/Red + Shock/Draw, Pro White/Black + Life/Recursion, all of which are highly relevant effects for the deck. There's also the added bonus of using Stoneforge for an additional shuffle/thinning effect.

Well, those are my 2-cents on the topic of Stoneforge. While I doubt many players will use it because it's a tad more situational to them and they're reluctant to add more 3 drops, I would suggest testing it out.

Btb, has anyone had a chance to test out Glissa?

Forlorn Egoist

Dzra
02-07-2011, 01:54 AM
I might be down for testing 3 Mystics, a Jitte, and a Sword of Fire and Ice in place of Deeds and Tops. I don't think Mox Diamonds are cuttable and I've already cut Verdicts. I don't like the idea of equipment, but SoFI/Jitte are both huge against our weaker tribal MU. Still... at the earliest, t1 Mystic into an equipment, t2 equipment, t3 suit up and swing might be too slow and if they destroy your equipment then your tempo just got wreaked. Definitely worth a shot though.

edit: After testing quite a few games with myself (not optimal, I know, but none the less...), I was finding the Mystic package to be rather clunky. Most of the time, I would end up holding the equipment in my hand since it takes two turns to bring it online and generally I wanted something that was going to affect things now. It brings more answers in the late game and definitely gives you a huuuge trump in a Goyf standoff, but early to mid game it feels very dead.

sdematt
02-10-2011, 07:55 PM
Rock took 8th at an Italian Tournament:

Maindeck:
Creatures (12):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Others (25):
3 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Lands (24):
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

61 Cards
Sideboard:
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Qasali Pridemage

*Notice 61 card mainboard*

The rest of the Top 8, from 1st to 8th, was: Fish, Zoo, Affinity, Zoo, Landstill, Goblins, ANT, Rock.

ivanpei
02-10-2011, 08:42 PM
Mox seems to be default now.I don't dig the gerrard's verdict though, I'd cut them for the 4th seize, and 2 elspeths. The deed could be the cut to go down to 61 cards as deed seems anti-synergistic with low cc critters and mox. The deck plays 4 vindicates anyway so there seems to be enough answers.

Dark Ritual
02-10-2011, 08:55 PM
I would cut the sejiri steppe, it's rarely good when drawn and only combo's with KotR. Just awful IMO because people if they suspect it will simply main phase removal your KotR when it still has summoning sickness. Vindicate is rarely a dead card because it hits almost everything which is very solid apparently for 3 mana. 61 cards is something of a playstyle call as well some people swear by 61 card MDs. I'm not one of those people though.

Mox diamond is sick accel; turn 1 hymn/gerrard's verdict you, negate the card disadvantage of mox? Hell yes. And make your wastelands worse because you can't get rid of the diamond? Okay. Taps for all colors is very nice too.

Stoneforge would probably go in a more aggro build of the rock. It would be quite similar to deadguy ale splashing for green with some minor card differences. It could be solid though.

sdematt
02-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Mox Diamond is sick accel providing the following turns you do something relevant. Getting stuck on 2 is not necessarily good. Mox has its merits, both ways.

I'm not a fan of the 3 Verdict in the list though, I agree. Needs the 4th Seize. Deed might not be synergistic with Diamonds, but you need sweep against decks that play more creatures than you do. It sweeps Lords and Vials in one go if it lands. Some sort of sweeper is necessary.

-Matt

ivanpei
02-10-2011, 09:42 PM
I agree with steppe being conditional. This deck is not aggro enough to use steppe as an unblockable-giver for the alpha strike. Imo, wrath/damnation -> deed in this deck as it's faster (somewhat) and can come down as a surprise. That's my 2 cents though, as deed deals with vials and other artifacts/enchantments too. I prefer EE over deed as well. I used EE to great success in New Horizons which ran goyfs and also KOTRs.

sdematt
02-10-2011, 10:11 PM
I've also used EE to much success. I'm running a 2 Deed/1 EE split, and it's been great. Sometimes, you don't want to blow up the ENTIRE world :cool:

-Matt

Dzra
02-10-2011, 10:26 PM
I used to really dig Sejiri Steppe and I still do, but room is the problem. I decided that Bog is probably better for the slot simply because it is like Karakas. There are some MUs where Bog or Karakas are simply broken. Steppe is good in most every MU, but it's not broken in any of them.

Also, since I recently built that BW tempo deck also, part of the reason why the Mystic package is so good in that deck is Vials. You don't lose nearly as much tempo with Vials in the deck since you can Vial in creatures (which affect the board state now) and at the same time use your mana to play equipment.

ivanpei
02-10-2011, 10:41 PM
The problem with this deck and stoneforge is insufficient creatures. Vial decks also have upwards of 22 creatures usually while this deck plays 12-14. I played a list with stoneforge, blossom and elspeth. That worked out pretty well, but its a totally different deck.

sdematt
02-11-2011, 01:45 AM
I think you could very easily create a Vial Rock list (similar to "Junk and Taxes"), or a Stoneforge package, but it'll take a bit of reworking of the standard lists.

Stoneforge is very strong, but like I said, must be built around. For me, I like blowing shit up, so I'll stick with the whole Deed/Vindicate way :P

-Matt

Dzra
02-11-2011, 02:04 AM
What do you think it was about the Junk and Taxes list that gave it an edge over more traditional Rock or Dark Horizons lists?

Some notable cards in it are Vials, Moms, the Mystic Package, Mangara/Karakas, and Maelstrom Pulse in the side.

Vials are good because they can compete with the fast tempo of other vial decks.

Moms are good in a meta where the major threats are Merfolk, Goblins, or Goyfs.

Mystic Package offers versatility and CA at the expense of a slower mid-game.

Mangara + Karakas is like a Vindicate machine gun. Great, but slower to work, especially without Vials or an active Knight.

Maelstrom Pulse seems like an alternative removal to Deed since he doesn't want to be blowing up his side of the board with this deck.

The only cards I can see that we might be able to take from this list and put into a more traditional build would be Moms and perhaps Mangara/Karakas. It definitely seems like W/x tempo is going to be an ever growing force in the meta.

Rainbow Maker
02-11-2011, 04:25 AM
I have been running the mystic package since i picked up this deck and realized i hated the diamonds. Mom is a stupid good card. It is easily one of the most underplayed cards. however i feel you need 4 moms and space is tight. Also with the inclusion of mom you basically have to drop deed and run mystic. Which makes the deck more aggro esque.

I run 16 creatures with mystic and i usually will have a creature in play with an equipment.
4 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
2 mystic
2 flex

Also i think 3 mystic and 3 equipment is a little much. I think if you are going to rely on equipment that much use vial.

sdematt
02-11-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm pretty sure they play MoM so they can deal damage with the Swords unblocked and get the nice effect.

The real "advantage" they have is Vial and MoM, along with Equipment. What they lose is more discard, board sweep, etc. They'll be better against Aggro, but we'll still be good against *more* things in general.

I'd be curious to see a matchup between us and them. Us packing global sweep, them packing Vials. Considering they're a Vial based disruption deck, we'd probably be alright. Not great, but alright.

I'll try to post more after school.
-Matt

Rainbow Maker
02-11-2011, 02:11 PM
well mom is just good. it seems like it's just for equipment, but it isn't. that card can wreak havoc if you can't deal with it. It's a pretty negative matchup. they have about as much removal as us. more creatures, the same fatties, vial etc. It is one of those matchups in which deed shines. However you have to watch out for those pridemages. I have only had a few matches. But when i played them i was upset about life matters and couldn't concentrate. however they don't have any Ca outside of mangara + karakas, equipments and mystic. if you can deed a few things away i would say you are in a good position. before that list of green and taxes became popular i thought of trying it and was always scared without bob and discard a lot of control decks would be a pain. but the more i think the more i might be acceptable to do the junk and taxes list. I don't know much about anything anymore

AggroSteve
02-11-2011, 03:56 PM
actually green & taxes and death & taxes also has way more tricks build into the deck, which can provide situational CA, like flickerwisp-tricks and a few others

i am playing a mono-white list myself, but never did tournaments with it, but it has definitely the better matchup against any aggro-deck running around, with zoo being the same as ours, more or less, plus it has the better late-game-engine with mangara+karakas (those 2 just wreck about anything if used correctly)

but when i played my rock list against my taxes list (piloted by a friend of mine) i rarely had any problems beating it, but it was the mono-white list not a green & taxes list
and yes, deed really shines in this matchup, and for our other removal, keep it mostly for their moms and evasiv guys

Magicsk8ngenius
02-11-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm pretty okay with green and taxes becoming big. I've played agains the deck a ton because it's a cheap deck that people on mtgo like to play. The matchup is really bad for them, in fact it's bad for any taxes list except maybe the junk and taxes. I haven't played against that one and honestly it seems really solid. I've considered trying it out for myself.

The real reason why the taxes decks plays Mother of Runes is because of mangara. Basically any form of removal can take out mangara which they need to protect in order to be able to do much. Deed just wrecks this deck too. Anyone here use wasteland? Oh yeah that is problematic for them too. Basically most of our deck is an answer to theirs.

I'm gonna start working on an aggro rock variant that uses stoneforge mystics and vial. It's really hard to get the numbers right and to find creatures that can even begin to compete with tarmogoyf and KoTR for power level.

sdematt
02-11-2011, 10:36 PM
I think if a Stoneforge/Vial version is going to be played (they don't have to be mutually exclusive), it has to play 4 Goyf, 4 KotR, 4 Confidant, 4 MoM, 4 Mystic, and if there's room, Mangara. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can never cut Dark Confidant in a deck with such a low curve (compared with other Rock lists).

-Matt

Rainbow Maker
02-12-2011, 01:13 AM
You guys are all right. The point is mom is versatile. It can chump block give something protection from spot removal save mangara. This isn't all of the uses it has. Wastelnd is only somewhat effective. Yes they have a lot of non basics and they can't rely on canopy because it kills them but all they need is one vial. Also yes the mono white version on taxes is more consistent however it looses the pressure that lists splashing green can apply. The mono white relies heavily on vial and pulling off tricks. I definitely don't think the green and taxes match up is as easy as you guys profess. A turn one mom is an extremely powerful play especially if we don't have a swords to deal with her.

FieryBalrog
02-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Went 2-1 in our small local tourney last night.
minireport

Match 1 vs Enchantress
Game 1 is one of the weirdest matches I've played as I get tempo'd out by Enchantress (of all decks?!). Turn 2 O-Ring on my Mox Diamond, turn 3 he legend rules my Karakas, leaving me with one land. And with a maindeck Pithing needle naming Top on the same turn I have no way to dig for land, and I don't draw anymore for several turns. I'm holding deed on turn 2 as he does this, which I didn't play for fear of O-ring and because he only had a single Argothian and a Wild growth out, and wanted to catch him with more on the board. I die with the deed in my hand while he goes off with 2 Enchantress effects.
Game 2 I put down turn 1 Mox into Hymn, turn 2 Hymn again, and after he replenishes I put down and pop Explosives for 2 taking out Argothian and double Sterling Gtove, leaving him some Wild Growths and an Elephant Grass. Goyf starts beating down and that's game.
Game 3 I get out tempo'd again with O-ring on Mox Diamond, leaving me with 2 lands... and unable to cast the Engineered Plague in my hand for way too long, while he has double Argothian Enchantress out. Even though I have a Bob that I put down t1 from the Mox, I draw nothing but spells and eventually die to a single Angel token that gets there, having boarded out all my Swords.
Not how the matchup is supposed to play out from experience!

Match 2 vs Goblins
Game 1 he mulls to 5 on the play but has a land of Lackey, ringleader, chieftan, 2x Mountain. Basically the perfect 5 card hand. I kept a sketchy 7-card hand that has no answers to t1 lackey, but I get lucky & rip a swamp. So I'm able to put down swamp, Mox, Hymn, taking ringleader & chieftan and leaving him with just a mountain in hand. Next turn Goyf comes down, and hymn once again rips apart his hand on the turn after. Pretty lucky on my part and this is vs a mull to 5!
Game 2
Man, I played terribly this game. I basically drew tons of creatures and I kept throwing them onto the board, completely oblivious to any sideboarding plan he might have. So with my board of 3x Knight and 2x Goyf vs his handful of dorks, I of course get 5-for-1'd by Perish. Amazingly enough for me it doesn't matter, because spinning Top + fetches quickly gives me double Engineered Plague which breaks his board permanently while I stabilize at 5 life.

Match 3 vs Merfolk
This guy was pretty obviously super-new; game 1 he has a lord & two dorks on board representing 7 damage, while I have a resolved Deed. So he goes and casts 2 more creatures and a Standstill into the deed, which I then pop when he tries to swing...
Game 2 double Engineered Plague while playing around Daze gets there.

My list:
1 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

sdematt
02-12-2011, 11:50 AM
Nice job! Sometimes Enchantress can be a pain, as you just can't destroy enough stuff on the board, and you can rip apart their hand, but have no way to counter Replenish.

Deeds are paramount here, but you did the best you could, so don't bash yourself too hard. Just because we have a certain ratio doesn't mean you'll always get the side of the ratio you want :tongue:

-Matt

sdematt
02-13-2011, 12:25 PM
So after a 14-hour grueling grind session playing Rock most of that time, my group has some things to say, as do I. I'll write more of it out later, but for now, here's what happened:

TES
I lost 8-2 preboard against TES. Discard was just not getting there, as I'd take his Infernal tutor, next turn he draws AN and wins. Bah. This happened once or twice, but the deck is resilient to non-counter based hate. A few times he even Duressed away my discard and made me sad. Moxes or no moxes, preboard I wasn't disrupting enough. The games that I won were won by doing discard on turns 1-2, then putting a clock/Confidant on board.

Post board was a different animal, I had a much better time. Leyline of Sanctity gives them another roadblock to go through, Duress adds Discard, and Extirpate can stop Iggy loops and getting rid of stuff like Burning Wish/Infernal tutor. I was about even here, even ever so slightly favourable.

Dredge
Against Dredge, we played only postboard games. I have to say, Extirpate isn't nearly as good, since you can only hit either Bridges or Dreads, but not both usually. I won games where I had the nuts draw, and he won the games he should. Using Extirpates, Plagues, and extra Deeds, I still wasn't as favoured as I should have been. I'm thinking that most of the time against Grave-based decks, I'm going to want Crypt/Spellbomb (except Reanimator if it comes back).

Zoo
I had a decent matchups against Zoo-it wasn't nearly as terrible as I thought it was. Laying out bigger beats and have 6 Swords was huge. I only lost the games I did literally due to Price of Progress. Thoughtseize it really good, as taking Price/Lavamancer/Burn saves you more life later on. Knight nicely fetches out basics for you to dodge Price too badly. Vindicate and Wasteland are very good here. Plague on Cat is good, as is extra Deed and Leyline of Sanctity.

43 Lands

Extirpate would be good here, but I never drew it, and he locked me out turn 1/2 every game we played. Turn 1 Manabond into Ghost Quarter, Waste, Factory, Port, Tropical, Life. Frick. Or, Exploration into Port lock. Ugh.

All in all, very good games. I'll do more analysis when I'm not late for work.

-Matt

damionblackgear
02-13-2011, 06:10 PM
Just wondering, why not Leyline over Extirpate? It would be stronger vs dredge and 43-lands. Yes, They can try and play around it but it's a little difficult to fight a way your deck isn't designed to. Every dredge and lands player I've seen has been more afraid of a Leyline than Extirpates. I haven't tested the Lands or Dredge match since changing my disruption package from manabases to discard so I honestly am not able to understand why it's stronger.

Also, Is there a knight you're using? If so, is there a Bojuka Bog? If not, why?

SpikeyMikey
02-13-2011, 07:48 PM
Dredge is incredibly tough to beat vs a competent opponent. I used to base my thoughts on the dredge I would see on MWS until I put it together for myself. The deck is gross. I beat a Rock player online that drew a Crypt, a Relic and a Nihil. Slow rolled him with PImp and Stinkweed. Forced him to blow all 3 eventually and then made a few Zombie tokens. He just didn't have enough of a clock to put me in any danger. Stinkweed and Tireless Tribe will both block fatties all day. It's underrated because so many tools pick it up. I was playing a subpar listing and it was my first day with the deck.

Evincarcrovax
02-13-2011, 09:10 PM
Is Genesis used in Rock at all? I saw two at my store for $8 today and I'm wondering if I should get it.

sdematt
02-13-2011, 09:29 PM
I'm using Knight with Bog, but it's not like you hit Knight every time, nor can you always get Bog. Running Leyline means I need to run 4, and it's also worse to hardcast if it isn't in my opening hand. It doesn't remove a graveyard that's already there if I have to cast it on turn 3/4, so unless I open with it, it's slightly irrelevant/can be easily dealt with.

I also played a bit more Merfolk, and all I can say is that I hate Kira.

Genesis is used in slower, more controlling Rock builds. It's also the nuts in EDH. 8 isn't a bad price, as far as I know.

-Matt

JonBarber
02-13-2011, 10:04 PM
Is Genesis used in Rock at all? I saw two at my store for $8 today and I'm wondering if I should get it.

Its far too slow and you have no way to get it into your graveyard. And starcity has them for $6, so $8 isn't the best deal.

Dzra
02-14-2011, 03:10 AM
I think Extirpate is great against Dredge. The problem with Spellbombs, Leylines, Crypts, etc is that they are one-shots so you can get slow rolled and that they are permanents so they can get bounced/destroyed. Most Dredge players will assume Leylines or Crypts and will board in bounce and enchantment/artifact hate. They are usually pretty susceptible to Extirpate. If you hit a Bridge, then they are forced to rely on Dread return, which should give you time to set up an active KotR (Bog and Karakas) or fish for a second Extirpate. It's not the most fun MU, but it's definitely doable. Mull into hate. ;/

AggroSteve
02-14-2011, 05:18 AM
i rarely played against dredge, and when i did against people that did not really know how to play the deck, since i am the only one to own a dredge deck of all the people i play with, but from expierience the matchup is hard to win but if you extirpate bridges and set up a wall for ichorids/or sword them, you should be fine at least for a while, the biggest problem though is a fast dread return with a iona on white or a BIG troll, and you have no sword in hand

leyline of the void allmost has no use because from their sideboard will come chain of vapor or natures claim, so your leyline has absolutely no use

i found targeted discard quite usefull, picking their drawspells and thus slowing their clock/combo for a few turns

but i really do not like playing against dredge, i find it quite hard to win against, even with MD bog and playset extirpates in the SB

luckily i do not see it here a lot^^, but i would think if there would be more dredge-decks around i would think of jixlid jailer in the sideboard

damionblackgear
02-14-2011, 01:26 PM
Kira is annoying but you should be able to control until she's down and after if you have to there is still Deed and Karakas.

Is anyone running Choke in their board anymore? And has anyone dedicated slots to the combo matchup? I found that just counting on the blue decks was just as helpful as actually boarding for it.

Evincarcrovax
02-14-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm using Knight with Bog, but it's not like you hit Knight every time, nor can you always get Bog. Running Leyline means I need to run 4, and it's also worse to hardcast if it isn't in my opening hand. It doesn't remove a graveyard that's already there if I have to cast it on turn 3/4, so unless I open with it, it's slightly irrelevant/can be easily dealt with.

I also played a bit more Merfolk, and all I can say is that I hate Kira.

Genesis is used in slower, more controlling Rock builds. It's also the nuts in EDH. 8 isn't a bad price, as far as I know.

-Matt

I'll probably give it a try then. I play the slower control build anyway.


Kira is annoying but you should be able to control until she's down and after if you have to there is still Deed and Karakas.

Is anyone running Choke in their board anymore? And has anyone dedicated slots to the combo matchup? I found that just counting on the blue decks was just as helpful as actually boarding for it.

I still use choke in my SB. The few times I got it in against a blue deck it pretty much won me the game.

sdematt
02-14-2011, 06:58 PM
I dedicate 7 Slots to the combo matchup, as it's heavy in my area, and the players are good.

I would SO run Choke still if it wasn't for the amount of Combo.

-Matt

deezy
02-17-2011, 11:55 PM
Dredge is incredibly tough to beat vs a competent opponent. I used to base my thoughts on the dredge I would see on MWS until I put it together for myself. The deck is gross. I beat a Rock player online that drew a Crypt, a Relic and a Nihil. Slow rolled him with PImp and Stinkweed. Forced him to blow all 3 eventually and then made a few Zombie tokens. He just didn't have enough of a clock to put me in any danger. Stinkweed and Tireless Tribe will both block fatties all day. It's underrated because so many tools pick it up. I was playing a subpar listing and it was my first day with the deck.

my board for combo is 2 gaddok teeg 2 eithersworn cannonist against dredge teeg actualy comes in handy cause he shuts off dread return so 2 teegs plus bog and 3 extirpate and the fact I play 1 main EE with 1 enlightend tutor in the gerrards verdict slots..And I beat it consistantly....It can still beat you if you come out slow but if you use the targeted disscard right its been a matchup I am confidant I am going to win....

sdematt
02-18-2011, 12:19 AM
Any updates from anyone? Additional testing, etc.?

I'm hoping to get more Goblins/Merfolk testing in before a Black Lotus Tournament I'm going to. It's either this or Dreadstill.

-Matt

ZZZ
02-18-2011, 05:47 AM
I'll finally be playing in a tournament again this Sunday (it's been months). I'm taking a stock list with 1 Gerrard's Verdict and 2 Deed in the 3 flex slots.
My board will probably be the following:
4 Plague
2 Path
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
1 Elspeth

I'm hoping not to face too much Zoo as I've did quite some testing in the last couple of weeks and I don't like the matchup. I've had a couple of Kitchen Finks in my board first over the 3rd Duress and Elspeth but I'm not expecting many Zoo decks so I decided on the above. I'll let you guys know how it went.

Dzra
02-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Top 8'd yesterday.

Round 1: Countertop Thopters
G1 - Loss
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Mox Diamonds, +4 Extirpate, +2 Thrun, the Last Troll, +1 Pernicious Deed
G2 - Win
G3 - Draw

Round 2: GW Tempo
G1 - Win
-4 Hymn, +3 Path to Exile, +1 Pernicious Deed
G2 - Loss
-4 Thoughtseize, +4 Hymn
G3 - Loss

Round 3: RUGw tempo
G1 - Win
-2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Thrun, the Last Troll
(I can't remember if I got this in 2 or 3, but his mana base seemed awkward)

Round 4: Enchantress
G1 - Win
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Mox Diamond, +4 Extirpate, +1 Pernicious Deed
G2 - Win (a good Wasteland on Serra's Sanctum got me there before he could play a wincon)

After we cut to top 8, I tested for a while against Merfolk. Pre-board was around 50/50. I tested out two different boards against him. The first was -4 Hymn, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Path, +3 Plague, +1 Deed. He brought in Perish and Submerge and maybe a third Jitte. This went about 50/50. Plague seemed like it was slowing me down so I boarded that back out for 3 Hymns. This went more like 60/40. I'm thinking that I should probably board Elspeth out in the MU as well, so I can get back up to 4 Hymns. Another thought might be boarding out Dark Confidants to keep the Thoughtseize in, but I'm not completely sure.

I've tested a fair amount against the GW/BW tempo builds as well. GW seems 50/50, so maybe I'm boarding wrong against them. Perhaps something closer to my Merfolk SB plan would be better. I'm not sure at all about BW tempo though, that MU has been brutal. I didn't try it boarded, but pre-board I couldn't even squeeze one win out of about 6 games.

freakish777
02-20-2011, 05:18 PM
Is Genesis used in Rock at all? I saw two at my store for $8 today and I'm wondering if I should get it.


No.

If you're going to recur creatures, you should use Volrath's Stronghold instead. You can grab it with Knight of the Reliquary, you need to find a way to get it into your graveyard, there isn't the restriction of paying only in your upkeep.

It's not card advantage, but that's a small price to pay. Also, it's more on color than Genesis (you're more likely to have more black mana in your deck than green mana).

ivanpei
02-20-2011, 07:52 PM
Wow, I'm a huge Hymm convert now. That card is ridiculously powerful. I'm playing the stock list with my loose slots being: 2 Elspeths and the 24th land. Is the 24th land cuttable? I'm playing a maze, so I'm actually only playing 23 lands. I'm also running 4 wastes and a volrath's stronghold. Wasteland is just too good.

I haven't really drawn much into Elspeth yet. Usually games revolved around me raping hands with thoughtseize/hymm then dropping KOTR/Bob to take over the game by a wasteland a turn/ pure CA. Theoretically, I like elspeth though, she's like big finisher 9-10. I find that I want to end games fast once my discard/wastelands/vindicates knock my opponent off balance. If they get enough turns, usually they can draw themselves out of the game. I wanted something that hit hard and fast, elspeth is just the ticket. Of course she's not perfect vs zoo/folk, but tolerable.

sdematt
02-20-2011, 11:29 PM
I found two Elspeth to be too many with Bobs and such, so I went down to one, but she's a house.

@Drza

What did you find difficult about GW Tempo?

Also, Karakas ability gets countered on Kira, but does give you the one target to get countered, if that's what you mean.

@ Perish

Perish really does destroy us. I know this seems bad, but I'm just thinking out loud. Dauntless Escort is a 3/3 for Knight's cost but makes your army Perish proof once. Probably not worth it, but just putting it out there.

---


I've been testing lately with other people and other Rock players. Apparently, I'm not the only one not in favour of the Moxen, but we'll see. I'm still testing them as flex slots (Mox/Path slots, basically) and I've found them being more useful as Paths thus far.

I'm going to a tournament on Sunday, and I'm pretty sure I'll be playing this. Any matchups that I should watch out for (something I didn't talk about in the primer, or something you've been noticing that maybe I haven't had the chance to play against recently)?

-Matt

deezy
02-21-2011, 08:23 AM
I'm using Knight with Bog, but it's not like you hit Knight every time, nor can you always get Bog. Running Leyline means I need to run 4, and it's also worse to hardcast if it isn't in my opening hand. It doesn't remove a graveyard that's already there if I have to cast it on turn 3/4, so unless I open with it, it's slightly irrelevant/can be easily dealt with.

I also played a bit more Merfolk, and all I can say is that I hate Kira.

Genesis is used in slower, more controlling Rock builds. It's also the nuts in EDH. 8 isn't a bad price, as far as I know.

-Matt

karakus smacks kiras face.....lol

deezy
02-21-2011, 09:09 AM
whats you alls boarding stratagy for zoo I find I have issues with the path/swords since they pack like 6 atleast.....usually they are the most annoying part of the match.....quasali poses problems for deed and ee alot....I have been thinking of packing like 2 damnation in the sideboard just because it would help against a progenitus and cant be needled and wouldnt be bad against goblins or any other super aggro stratagies.....

Also I saw someone talking about running volraths stronghold and I run it also....I love that card we have so few threats that we need to be able to reuse them at will...

blackice
02-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Went 3-2, 9th place using this deck for the first time
Rd 1 vs Goblins 2-0
Rd 2 vs Zoo 1-2 (should have won but 2 bad play mistakes
Rd 3 vs Dreadstill 2-0
Rd 4 vs Merfolk 2-0
Rd 5 vs Lands 1-0-1

damionblackgear
02-21-2011, 09:36 AM
Matt, the acceleration slot is unfortunately pretty necessary. I ran it as exploration with a crucible and the flex spot as 3 Armageddons prior to survival's run. I liked it more than the diamond but the same requirements are needed for both cards. I would suggest finding another acceleration card instead of path as I've never been a fan of accelerating their plan more than my own.

Also, even though elspeth is a 4cc its still OK. It's rare that her exact 4 damage will be the reason you lose a game. Reference the Armageddon list and you'll see two 5cc spells as well as three 4cc spells. I think its more remembering and playing accordingly.

Lastly, are people maining their bogs still? I removed mine as there are so few graveyard based strategies right now.

AggroSteve
02-21-2011, 10:31 AM
i was thinking of removing it in favor of nantuko monastery, specially because we are thread-light and a 4/4 first striker is not bad at all, plus it does not cipt !!

Arsenal
02-21-2011, 10:44 AM
I'm still running 4 Noble Hierarchs, eschewing the Mox Diamond plan. I lose some explosiveness, but I feel the Exalted and body Hierarch provides is enough to compensate.

sdematt
02-21-2011, 10:49 AM
As of right now, I'm still running flex-slot Moxen.

For Zoo, I had trouble against their burn, so I ran out Leylines from the board, and it helped. Qasali does such at times, but it just means your Deeds can't sit too long, you have to crack them pretty soon. I'd still say use them, however. Playing 6 Swords main also helps, and early discard to take away Price/Big Beaters definitely helps.

-Matt

Dzra
02-21-2011, 12:46 PM
Zoo doesn't give me a lot of trouble, but I playtest against it a lot. Mox helps because you can fetch basics easier which let's you avoid Price. I think bringing in Leylines is a bit much. Paths might be nice, I'm not sure Deeds are completely needed here.

2Rach
02-21-2011, 01:23 PM
For Zoo, I had trouble against their burn, so I ran out Leylines from the board, and it helped. Qasali does such at times, but it just means your Deeds can't sit too long, you have to crack them pretty soon. I'd still say use them, however. Playing 6 Swords main also helps, and early discard to take away Price/Big Beaters definitely helps.
SBing Leyline is really bad against Zoo. Burn to the face is the last thing you need to worry about, literally :). They don't start doing that until they've lowered your life points with their creatures. Just focus on killing the creatures to save your face.

EDIT:

I'm not sure Deeds are completely needed here.
They're great for me, but I run Moxes so it could be a little harder for him.

Dzra
02-21-2011, 01:52 PM
But with Thoughtseize, Hymn, 4 Vindicates, 4 Swords, and 2 Paths I don't think Deed will be necessary. Other than library, they have no CA. The trap is not wanting to waste removal on their 1 drop creatures, but every little bit of damage that they can squeeze in puts you closer to burn range.

Unlike ours, Zoo is very much slowed down by having to fetch basics. It's not uncommon to get a hand that just mana screws them either.

Sdematt, I'd be curious how you feel about the BW tempo deck, if you've gotten any testing in.

I hadn't thought of Karakas against Kira. Pretty hot.

2Rach
02-21-2011, 02:21 PM
I side out Thoughtseize and Vindicate depending on my SB. Deed is better than either of those so should be brought in to replace them. But that's the real problem, we have different MD/SB so we can't tell what's correct specifically.

SpikeyMikey
02-21-2011, 02:29 PM
It has been my experience that your opponent has a plan for you, no matter what they're playing. If you're playing blue control against Tendrils, they bring in Xantid Swarm because they expect you're boarding out useless removal. Playing Rock against R/B Goblins? They're bringing in Perish or Boartusk Liege or both. That's why avoiding their plan is key to winning. You create dead cards. It's a cat and mouse game. Zoo knows you're going to try and take it to the long game. That's what everyone outside of combo does; you don't out-aggro Zoo. So they pack late game CA. Punishing and Grove at least and possibly Elspeth and Ajani. It slows them down but they know you're probably going to take it late anyway, especially post-board. So the solution is to neutralize those long-game threats. I would bring in Extirpate and Loxodn Hierarch or Baloth to give you more threats out of burn range and a way to remove Punishing Fire and PoP.

Tao
02-21-2011, 02:43 PM
What is your guys opinion on Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize?

80-90% of the time I take CMC3 or lower anyway and overall I think there are more games you win by not dealing 2-4 damage to yourself every game than you lose by not being able to hit a CMC 4+ card.

damionblackgear
02-21-2011, 03:04 PM
The only card it really matters against is Natural Order. The deck has a hard time with Progenitus. You can grab the Show and Tell, and the blue card you don't want them to pitch to force so you get a better 2;1 when you get to dealing with the force. give it a try.

sdematt
02-21-2011, 07:59 PM
Moat, Elspeth, Jace TMS, Humility, Foce of Will, Natural Order, Armageddon, Smokestack, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and others are all the reasons to run Thoughtseize over Inquisition. Don't get me wrong: running extra copies in addition to TS is fine, or a 3/3 split, but I don't think Inquisition can totally replace the power the Thoughtseize has in the format.

@ BW Tempo

For some reason, I haven't gotten a ton of testing in against more traditional lists. I've gotten some testing in, but it seems like a Zoo-ish type matchup: but instead of burn, they've got more creatures and some removal as well. From the few times I played, Deed was excellent, but I hate Thoughtseize taking my Hymn :P

-Matt

ivanpei
02-21-2011, 09:44 PM
I played about 7/8 games yesterday and I have the following observations:

3 Mox's are required. I hated it on paper but in those games, I only had problems with it once, with a double mox hand (which I kept). I kept that double mox hand because I could do a turn 1 bob + top. I proceeded to win that game. Granted, Mox's are not hot against attrition decks like countertop etc, but they are crucial in speeding up the deck vs aggro decks. You need to get all your discard out against zoo/folk/gobs before they empty their hand. The problem with BOP/Noble is that they don't help much with 2cc cards which this deck is built around. I'd rather have an opener like T1, Hymm, T2 Bob + 1 drop compared to T1 Mana dude, T2 Hymm + 1 drop. Mox is extremely explosive in this deck and I highly recommend it.

Elspeth is beasting. For those who have not tried it, please do so. This deck has a very low threat count (12), Elspeth is the best 13-14th threat. I won races against aggro off the back of elspeth. They leave back a guy to chump KOTR and I fly right over them. Against control, It drives countertop nuts. STP, firepout all delay Elspeth, but does not totally remove her. Elspeth on the board also makes Jace TMS a sad panda. Jace has to keep bouncing or face an angry flying 4/4 which cannot be blocked by wall of Tarmogoyf.

As for Stronghold, I finally cut it. I'd rather have the 4th wasteland. If you are using it, you are most likely already losing, because it is damn slow. Against control, my Knights look for Wastelands, I never ever searched for Stronghold.

Here's my list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 KOTR
2 Elspeth

4 Vindicate
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond

1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant
4 Marsh Flats
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savanna
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp

Tao
02-22-2011, 03:21 AM
Moat, Elspeth, Jace TMS, Humility, Foce of Will, Natural Order, Armageddon, Smokestack, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and others are all the reasons to run Thoughtseize over Inquisition. Don't get me wrong: running extra copies in addition to TS is fine, or a 3/3 split, but I don't think Inquisition can totally replace the power the Thoughtseize has in the format.


You usually don't want to take FoW anyway. It is fine if they 2 for 1 themselves. What would they force that is so? It is usually their StoP or something that they could play next turn. From the other mentioned cards only Natural Order is both deadly and common. Sure being able to takke cards like Planeswalkers is an upgrade, otherwise we would not have a discussion. But how often do you take that singleton IGG or a Moat?
On the other hand against many decks every point of damage counts. Against Zoo, Merfolk, Affinity and other aggressive decks the cards do exactly the same.

For example in Ivanpei's list you fetch 3 times, reveal for 3 with Confidant and on top of that Thoughtseize twice? That's already half your life gone.I remember enogh games in which I just couldn't TS anymore so I switched (atm 4-2 split). If you play less 1CC Discard then a 2-2 split might be a reasonable call, too.

deezy
02-22-2011, 08:51 AM
You usually don't want to take FoW anyway. It is fine if they 2 for 1 themselves. What would they force that is so? It is usually their StoP or something that they could play next turn. From the other mentioned cards only Natural Order is both deadly and common. Sure being able to takke cards like Planeswalkers is an upgrade, otherwise we would not have a discussion. But how often do you take that singleton IGG or a Moat?
On the other hand against many decks every point of damage counts. Against Zoo, Merfolk, Affinity and other aggressive decks the cards do exactly the same.

For example in Ivanpei's list you fetch 3 times, reveal for 3 with Confidant and on top of that Thoughtseize twice? That's already half your life gone.I remember enogh games in which I just couldn't TS anymore so I switched (atm 4-2 split). If you play less 1CC Discard then a 2-2 split might be a reasonable call, too.

the only reason to not run thoughtseize is if you dont have any....I ran IOK its good I had a couple thoughtseize when I decided to switch to Legacy but traded them off for the components I needed for a couple decks...I have a ton of experience with IOK
and trust me you want thoughtseize... Its takes the power of the deck up tremendously...
Also you want FOW if you want to sneak a peek at theyre hand and stick a KOR under some counter for the win against merefolk.....Natural order is a must get.... against belcher thoughtseize gives you a way better matchup.....Sedmat has alot of valid targets also...Listen IOK is good and the deck is good with it but if you have thoughtseize run it......

damionblackgear
02-22-2011, 10:12 AM
If you're playing combo you're the underdog only getting about 20-30% chance at winning that game with or without the Thoughtseize. Even if you do get to make them discard their only combo piece you have to apply lethal before they draw another one. Post board you get a little better by making them jump through hoops but, you still have to win before them. We're a mid-ranged deck without counters and we have to effect them enough to make that matter.

Also, if you're running the popular version of the deck, you have hymn and verdict. Take their accelerate and hymn/verdict them if you can. You may miss them but you'll hit more acceleration spells that way and buy yourself the same amount of time. You also blank extra win-con's they draw that way, granted they have more acceleration than wincon's but, You can at least stall them and you'd know what you're up against.

FieryBalrog
02-22-2011, 12:36 PM
Mox has been working out very well for me in testing - except with P. Deed, which is a big bummer but I can deal with it. It's partially luck- I've been getting opening hand mox a high % of the time, and it's not great outside that opening 7. But when it is, it does some fantastic things. Apart from Thoughtseize, we have no good T1 plays without Mox, and putting out Bob or Hymn or even Goyf that first turn can be backbreaking. The other really useful thing it does is it lets you fetch a basic swamp as your first land and meet every color requirement the deck has, which has come up a huge amount in testing.

Part of me wishes I was playing things like Crucible or Loam or Armageddon to really abuse Mox because I'm used to playing those decks where it's good throughout the game. But it still does things which we don't have a good replacement for.

ivanpei
02-22-2011, 07:21 PM
I love mox... In some matchups. I had some of the worst beats handed to me yesterday by DnT. Its IMO one of the hardest MUs because it's mono-coloured so screwing over their manabase is difficult. Also, it has the dreaded Aether Vial which makes it even harder. I played 4 games, I only won 1 because I got lucky with a Turn 1 Hymm, snagging 2 lands. He was stuck on 1 land most of the game. During the other 3 games, I just do the usual things, sling discard at face, drop some threats, but the initial threats get answered/neutralized with STP, O-ring, Mangara even Phyrexian revoker.

In my opinion, the reason I lost was bad topdecks. This deck is TERRIBLE at topdecking and attrition wars. Even after I shred their hand and manabase, some "safer" decks like mono coloured DNT can recover very quickly. It's a given that we beat "greedy" manabases like countertop of landstill but the raw power of this deck is somewhat lacking. These are all terrible topdecks:

24 lands
3 Mox
4 Hymm
4 Thoughtseize

Thats 35 BAD topdecks! It's an insane number!!! I could never close out games fast enough against DnT and I had my ass handed to me after I topdeck lands, mox's and discard which are all dead after the first few turns. I'm trying out this list to sort of balance out the number of bad topdecks:

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 KOTR
2 Elspeth

4 Hymm
4 Seize
4 STP
4 Vindicate
3 Top
2 Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
4 Marsh
2 Windswept
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon

The dead cards are now 21 lands + 8 discard spells, which is much more tolerable. Jitte gives the deck much needed aggro busting potential and raw power. It turns topdecked Noble Heirarchs into a legitimate combat threat. Also, you get to run less lands compared to the mox builds, hence less dead cards. Of course you lose quite a bit of speed, but its worth testing.

Tao
02-22-2011, 08:44 PM
I play a bit more controlling and I use Green Sun's Zenith instead of Noble Hierarch. The T1 Dryad Arbor doesn't have exalted, but instead has "Kicker 2: Tarmogoyf". I know what I prefer. Can also search Qasali Pridemage, Finks or Witness for flexibility.
And speaking of good topdecks, running 8 KotRs helps.

Also, I repeat my issue with how IoK should at least replace some Thoughtseizes. Killing yourself with multiple TS isn't good.

ivanpei
02-22-2011, 09:53 PM
@ Tao. That's an excellent idea. I forgot about my favorite card in all this confusion. I'd go -4 noble, -2 jitte, -1 canopy, + 4 gsz, + 1 arbor + 1 pridemage + 1 savanna (need 3rd fetchable white source) As for seize vs inquisition. A split is nice. I'd never play purely inquisition. In aggro dominated metas, more inquisition is good. I'm more concerned with nabbing ringleaders and scg too as I see goblins :)

sdematt
02-22-2011, 10:35 PM
To be honest, I find it very difficult to play a deck without Dark Confidant, Top, or both. Drawing one card a turn that I can't look at beforehand makes me feel SO behind all the time. I was playing Aggro Bant today and it was so frustrating not drawing 2+ cards a turn and entering "topdeck" mode.

I agree, IoK can replace SOME, but not ALL thoughtseizes. I would say 3/3 Split is about where you want to be personally (at least, in my meta, my suggested TS targets come up more often). I could easily see 4/2 depending on the meta, but I'm not in favour of it where I play.

-Matt

ivanpei
02-23-2011, 09:08 AM
Did a little testing again tonight. Wow, is GSZ amazing or what! I drew it roughly 2-3 times every game (due to shuffling back in etc). I've got to say, everytime I saw it, it was amazing! It pumped out mana on turn one and saved my ass a lot of times against equipment by tutoring pridemage. Other times, it was just a goyf/kotr. I could keep the pressure up and I actually topdeck very well as the game drags on. I really miss my 1 off canopy, but its a savanna now as I need the 3rd fetchable white source.

The downside of GSZ over mox and bop/noble is your manabase. You have to adjust accordingly to play GSZ into arbor. Usually you can play basics if you play mox or bop as forest -> bop or basic -> mox are very good plays. Forest-> GSZ however is a terrible play, you can't cast many non green spells like that. Arbor just makes green, so that's a pain in the ass, I am forced to play all duals and zero basics to try and balance it out. I don't get wrecked by wasteland due to playing 22 lands + 4 GSZ, but I might run the risk of being wastelocked or blood mooned out of the game. I guess its part of the trade off.

IMO, I'm sticking to GSZ as the consistency, gas and tutoring effect is just too awesome to turn down.

sdematt
02-23-2011, 01:10 PM
Played with the following alterations to my list:

Bojuka Bog -> Wasteland
Forest -> Mox Diamond
2 PTW -> Mox Diamond

This would make the deck look a bunch more like the traditional lists.

I played quite a few practice games. I got 1-2 nut Mox draws, like fetch, fetch, wasteland, KotR, Swords, Mox, Top. Alright, that's pretty good. But, not having a Forest did screw me over when I had multiple Scrublands and no way to continually make green mana over multiple turns (as in, f I fetched for a Bayou, I'd get it for one turn due to an opposing Wasteland). Forest would have been key.

Wasteland over Bog was decent, since Bog does screw you over if it's one of the lands in your hand to begin with. But, not being able to shrink a Zoo's KotR made me sad.

In the aggro matchups, the speed provided by Mox was balanced out with the fact cheap removal was in its place (Path was the flex slot). I liked having a third Wasteland, but Bog and Forest were not the ones to cut for me, especially if I'm not playing Mox. Mox was REALLY good when it was good, and a fucking terrible pile that would have saved me some aggro games had it been Path.

So far, the manabase is like so:

1 Karakas
1 Maze
1 Bog
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats

I don't want to cut Bayous as well, since I'm always hungry to lay out my green threats. I was thinking possibly the Swamp, since I have 2 for redundancy. But, Bog seemed to be the weakest link, even though it's REALLY amazing when it's amazing (it's suffering from Mox syndrome). Still very much on the fence.

The rest of the main seemed very smooth, except drawing Deed and Elspeth blind off Confidant one game, ugh. I need to shuffle better (Deed and Elspeth were sorted together, I guess I didn't shuffle well enough). Having the EE helped out against tokens from Storm (take that!), I could kill Vial/pre-lay out an EE on turn 1 in expectations of Lackey/Vial, allow me to blow up CB with a 3 mana 2 colour EE, etc. Deed was good as well, but I tihnk having 3 main would be terrible, as the chances for me taking huge Confidants hits would be higher.

All in all, decent. What are you guys running in your boards as of now?

-Matt

Dzra
02-23-2011, 01:36 PM
This is my manabase and it's been working well for me. I've debated about changing the Bayou/Scrubland split, but for now it's worked out fine.

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
(3 Mox Diamond)

The first land I fetch in almost any situation is a Swamp unless I know they don't have Wastelands. If I have a two land hand with a Wasteland, I'm potentially in for a rough game if I keep.

I've been trying Thrun in the board lately for high counter/removal MUs like Bant or Countertop. It's worked out pretty well, I'm not sure I'm sold though.

Speaking of Confidant, the other day I was running blind with 3 out. I was massively lucky, but it helped that I was pulling enough gas to end the game quickly. Then last Saturday, the first reveal was Deed. I played another Bob and next turn was Elspeth + Deed. Ouch. Still, I managed to pull through. Deed is pretty good against Enchantress I hear. ;) I'm of the opinion that you can never have too many Bobs out.

deezy
02-23-2011, 01:48 PM
If you're playing combo you're the underdog only getting about 20-30% chance at winning that game with or without the Thoughtseize. Even if you do get to make them discard their only combo piece you have to apply lethal before they draw another one. Post board you get a little better by making them jump through hoops but, you still have to win before them. We're a mid-ranged deck without counters and we have to effect them enough to make that matter.

Also, if you're running the popular version of the deck, you have hymn and verdict. Take their accelerate and hymn/verdict them if you can. You may miss them but you'll hit more acceleration spells that way and buy yourself the same amount of time. You also blank extra win-con's they draw that way, granted they have more acceleration than wincon's but, You can at least stall them and you'd know what you're up against.

You got it thats how you gotta play it when you run IOK but I recently switched out IOK and went to the thoughtseize and I 100% am happier with it in every aspect. I prefer to hit the win con. and then come back with hymn for the accell. But if you are just wanting to negate the life loss then IOK is the way to go...The deck is great with it also...Just feels a tad more powerful with thoughtseize. Atleast to me....

deezy
02-23-2011, 02:04 PM
This is my manabase and it's been working well for me. I've debated about changing the Bayou/Scrubland split, but for now it's worked out fine.

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
(3 Mox Diamond)

The first land I fetch in almost any situation is a Swamp unless I know they don't have Wastelands. If I have a two land hand with a Wasteland, I'm potentially in for a rough game if I keep.

I've been trying Thrun in the board lately for high counter/removal MUs like Bant or Countertop. It's worked out pretty well, I'm not sure I'm sold though.

Speaking of Confidant, the other day I was running blind with 3 out. I was massively lucky, but it helped that I was pulling enough gas to end the game quickly. Then last Saturday, the first reveal was Deed. I played another Bob and next turn was Elspeth + Deed. Ouch. Still, I managed to pull through. Deed is pretty good against Enchantress I hear. ;) I'm of the opinion that you can never have too many Bobs out.

Thats the exact manabase I run with some great results my deck run smooth with that base...
And I have held spare bobs in the past but have learned that 2 bobs is a good thing 2 have and usualy just over power them quickly if they let them sit...

ZeinVoncy
02-23-2011, 02:19 PM
Why not try running 2-3 copies of Wild Mongrel? He was a beast back in the day, he can make that worthless late game discard and mox look better, gets around perish, drops early and can ditch lands/other cards to feed Goyf+KotR. Just thought about it last night and figured I'd put a feeler out for it, gonna try a few copies in my deck.

deezy
02-23-2011, 02:37 PM
I love mox... In some matchups. I had some of the worst beats handed to me yesterday by DnT. Its IMO one of the hardest MUs because it's mono-coloured so screwing over their manabase is difficult. Also, it has the dreaded Aether Vial which makes it even harder. I played 4 games, I only won 1 because I got lucky with a Turn 1 Hymm, snagging 2 lands. He was stuck on 1 land most of the game. During the other 3 games, I just do the usual things, sling discard at face, drop some threats, but the initial threats get answered/neutralized with STP, O-ring, Mangara even Phyrexian revoker.

In my opinion, the reason I lost was bad topdecks. This deck is TERRIBLE at topdecking and attrition wars. Even after I shred their hand and manabase, some "safer" decks like mono coloured DNT can recover very quickly. It's a given that we beat "greedy" manabases like countertop of landstill but the raw power of this deck is somewhat lacking. These are all terrible topdecks:

24 lands
3 Mox
4 Hymm
4 Thoughtseize

Thats 35 BAD topdecks! It's an insane number!!! I could never close out games fast enough against DnT and I had my ass handed to me after I topdeck lands, mox's and discard which are all dead after the first few turns. I'm trying out this list to sort of balance out the number of bad topdecks:

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 KOTR
2 Elspeth

4 Hymm
4 Seize
4 STP
4 Vindicate
3 Top
2 Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
4 Marsh
2 Windswept
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon

The dead cards are now 21 lands + 8 discard spells, which is much more tolerable. Jitte gives the deck much needed aggro busting potential and raw power. It turns topdecked Noble Heirarchs into a legitimate combat threat. Also, you get to run less lands compared to the mox builds, hence less dead cards. Of course you lose quite a bit of speed, but its worth testing.

Your manabase is now all nonbasic which means magnus of the moon,blood moon and price of progress will wreck you...
Also you open your self up to an ass beating at the hand of decks like Ale and evegreen which can run 4 sinkhole 4 wasteland and 4 vindicate....Not to mention any decks that runs a cruicble wastelock...The moxes help versus decks that try these types of strategies plus you need atleast 1 of each basic...You know how it is though you will always have some bad matchup but usually bob and top provide the need CA to get the job done but alot of times I will board the mox out for more buisness if needed I think the trick is in the sideboard cause to me the maindeck gives game to almost any deck in the format...I do like hirearchs exalted pumpin our goyfs over opposing goyfs but he only give 2 colors we need and ones not black which is the only color we need 2 of so hes alittle to clunky and sub optimal in my opinion....But good luck with you testing...For sure get a few basics in that manabase....Also i saw you ran 24 lands most lists only ran 23 ...24 is alittle much with a high CMC of 3.....

sdematt
02-23-2011, 03:10 PM
I'm glad to see people are liking the Triple basics package that I love. I want room for Wasteland, but I don't want to cut anything :(

I've upped the land count to 24 and no Mox Diamonds, and like I said, so far not bad.

Sideboards? Thoughts?

-Matt

ivanpei
02-23-2011, 06:40 PM
I agree that my manabase looks like a pile because I don't play mox. I'm currently playing with GSZ instead of Nobles. The raw power that GSZ provides IMO outweighs the risk of wastelock and bloodmoon as I mentioned in my above post. Dragon Stompy is pretty rare nowadays. Landstill has mostly cut wastelock because it's too slow. Aggroloam still has wastelock and maybe Stax.

Notice a trend here? These are all fringe decks that are not tier 1. I'd say they make up 10% of the field max. I'd prefer to have something that's better against 90% of the field but worse against the other 10%. GSZ is much better against control/ midrange where the card disadvantage of Mox hurts. How much midrange/control do you see? Like half the field?

As for the Deadguy matchup. The only relevant argument is wasteland. As for vindicate? Vindicate on Mox hurts so badly as you invested 2 card into it. The same can be said about Revoker on Mox. Pridemage on my mox has also cost me games. Mox is brilliant vs combo and aggro, this I whole heartedly agree. It's just terrible vs attrition decks. GSZ on the other hand, is okay vs combo/aggro while being very good vs attrition decks.

deezy
02-23-2011, 10:28 PM
I agree that my manabase looks like a pile because I don't play mox. I'm currently playing with GSZ instead of Nobles. The raw power that GSZ provides IMO outweighs the risk of wastelock and bloodmoon as I mentioned in my above post. Dragon Stompy is pretty rare nowadays. Landstill has mostly cut wastelock because it's too slow. Aggroloam still has wastelock and maybe Stax.

Notice a trend here? These are all fringe decks that are not tier 1. I'd say they make up 10% of the field max. I'd prefer to have something that's better against 90% of the field but worse against the other 10%. GSZ is much better against control/ midrange where the card disadvantage of Mox hurts. How much midrange/control do you see? Like half the field?

As for the Deadguy matchup. The only relevant argument is wasteland. As for vindicate? Vindicate on Mox hurts so badly as you invested 2 card into it. The same can be said about Revoker on Mox. Pridemage on my mox has also cost me games. Mox is brilliant vs combo and aggro, this I whole heartedly agree. It's just terrible vs attrition decks. GSZ on the other hand, is okay vs combo/aggro while being very good vs attrition decks.

GSZ is an interesting card for sure Im interested to hear some test results thing I was say is that though wastelock may not be as prevalant right now wasteland period is probably at an all time high and If you cant get basics down to avoid them dicking with your manabase but only you know how its working...But price of progress on the other hand is still seeing action and for you if you have 4 or 5 lands down you could take a pretty good wack for that thing....also I noticed that you werent running much of a utility land base for your night to fetch..Is there a specific reason? Just curious cause I love my knight tricks and bog on someone elses knight is straight G....also maze is just to badass with knight...Anyway keep us posted on the GSZ usage and your results..That cards had my eye since it came out....

ivanpei
02-23-2011, 11:15 PM
GSZ counts as a mana source while Mox does not (in deck building). Say you open land, land, mox, thats 2 mana sources. If you open land, land GSZ, thats 3 mana sources. So while deck building, the rock likes roughly 23-24 mana sources. If you play mox, you play 23/24 lands + 3 moxes. If you play GSZ, you can afford to trim some lands, so I went down to 22.

As for utility lands, you can afford to run them if you play mox, because mox is like a fetchland (produces all 3 colours) so your coloured mana would be XX fetch + XX duals + XX mox. GSZ cannot make white or black so you can't include it in your coloured mana count for white and black. Due to this, you have to bump up your white and black coloured lands in your manabase, which leads to no utility lands and no basics. All lands must make more than 1 colour to support GSZ.

f|i[p]
02-23-2011, 11:43 PM
I run a moxless build with no acceleration but have a few more creatures and Creature control cards instead...

I run 3 basics as well, as I got screwed over by not having a basic forest vs goblins at one time....

My sideboard right now is

4 leyline
2 edict
1 bog
3 extirpate
3 e plague
1 tutor /flex slot
null rod/ the tabernacle

Leylines help me against burn and thats why I chose leylines instead of more discard.... Edicts for the basic show and tell, emrakul progen. extirpates and bogs for gravebased decks.. I use extirpate against landstill variants as well. Plague for goblins. Tutor for either null rod or plague..Null rod has won me games over affinity a lot of times as well as it does help vs combo. Tabernacle has won me a lot of games vs aggro and has help delay tactics for the least. Tabernacle and tutor null rod are all flexible packages...
E plague might get reduced to 2 if I were to push for both null rod and tabernacle because together they simply hose affinity..

My meta is quite weird.. You never really know what it is

Dzra
02-24-2011, 02:49 AM
Because I'm OCD, I did some not-so-quick calculations on Mox Diamonds and keepable hands. lol ;p
(using the standard 3 Mox and 23 land setup)

If you consider an unkeepable hand to be one with:
1 Mox and 0 lands
1 Mox and 1 land
2 Mox and 0 land
2 Mox and 1 land
3 Mox and 0 lands
3 Mox and 1 land
3 Mox and 2 land

Then the percentage that you'll have to mulligan based solely on that will be 7.109%. (1 Mox and 1 land hands represent over half of that percentage).

If you consider an ideal hand to have 1 Mox and 3 land, then your percentage to draw an ideal hand would be 8.232%.

If you consider a mediocre hand to be:
1 Mox and 2 lands
1 Mox and 4 lands
2 Mox and 2 lands
2 Mox and 3 lands
2 Mox and 4 lands

Then the percentage to draw a mediocre hand would be 12.067%.


That means that the total percentage of keepable Mox Diamonds hands would be ~20% compared to the not keepable hands at ~7%.

Of course, there are additional factors on both sides to be considered... topdecking and un-Wasteable mana sources, etc. Overall though, this proves what I've "felt" for a while now. Mox Diamonds help my opening hand more than they hurt it.

ivanpei
02-24-2011, 04:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, so basically, mox turns up in 27% of hands and 20% of them are keepable and 7% isn't. Thanks for the data! IMO being useful in 1/5 of your openers is not good enough to warrant playing them. This is if you take the bad topdecks and Card disadvantage into consideration. Causing you to mull 7% more is also pretty nightmarish. Can't imagine drawing a mox after mulling to a 6 card hand. Being unwastable is pretty good, but without loam/crucible to abuse, I sort of dislike mox.

insane.zaine
02-24-2011, 12:03 PM
IMO Mox is vital for the success of this deck ive tried nobles and there just not as good this deck imo need acceleration
and why do people hate drawing moxes late game it can be a pump to gofy i do it all the time and it helps out a lot i am an avid fan and feel taking it out for gsz is a bad idea because you get less useful cards in your deck just a search card but thats me feel free to correct or comment on it

Lemnear
02-24-2011, 12:40 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, so basically, mox turns up in 27% of hands and 20% of them are keepable and 7% isn't. Thanks for the data! IMO being useful in 1/5 of your openers is not good enough to warrant playing them. This is if you take the bad topdecks and Card disadvantage into consideration.

That's not true! With 3 moxen in the deck the Chance of drawing one in your opening hand is far less than 27%. A 4-of would be something around 22% so I guess a three-of makes maybe ~15%.

Dzra
02-24-2011, 01:12 PM
Actually, from what I'm getting, the chance of drawing at least one Mox in your opener would be 31.542%. That doesn't take into account lands though, so it's slightly higher (meaning, it includes 1 Mox and 5/6 land, 2 Mox and 5 land hands, etc which are probably unkeepable on a non-Mox related basis).

The percentage to get at least one 4-of is 39.949%.

How are you calculating this?

Tao
02-24-2011, 04:32 PM
GSZ is really good

- T1 Llanowar Elf, T3 Goyf or T4 KotR
- flexibility to prevent screw and flood: In a starting hand with many lands and GSZ you keep it for later, with only few lands you have a mana elf.
- flexible solution for problematic Artifacts/Enchantments. Just play a singleton Pridemage.
- post board Lifegain / Teeg
- it increases the light threat count
- it reveals for Confidant for just 1

For the Sideboard I suggest 2-3 Seeds of Innocence or Kataki.
Affinity is pretty broken and Etched Champion is a bitch. You can't kill or block it and if they have Plating it IS Progenitus. Also the Grom Monolith / Wurmcoil decks are quite insane. It is also a good weapon against Staxx, Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. Imo Seeds of Innocence is better.

deezy
02-24-2011, 06:47 PM
You all do what you want..But Ill say this noble hirearch and GSZ aint no mox GSZ doesnt shuffle back when you are forced to discard it or gets counterd doesnt fetch anything but green creatures....Thats a card you would run in bant or some shit where you fetch dryad arbor or quasali or warmonk or trygon predator or some shit util or setup for a natural order on the dryad you fetched I aint runnin no damn lanowar elves in my rock build....No moxes means no turn 1 bob into turn 2 draw 2 cards thoughtseize and hymn to your oppents face turn 3 draw 2 cards into wasteland on theyre non basic and vindicate on another land now thats a powerhouse legacy type play....In 3 turns You drop a 2/1 dude draw 4 cards strip 3 cards from your oppnents hand and blow up 2 of theyre lands....Instead of turn one hirearch or GSZ for some dryad arbor or lanar elf into a second turn bob and maybe if your lucky a thoughtseize if the additional land you have isnt a wasteland or somthing else that cant produce black into 3rd turn finally being able to maybe cast hymn and draw a few cards....thanks but no thanks....Thats why mox is boss...
I agree that gerrards verdicts main is to much hand disruption thats dead late so I chose to add a tutor to my main and an explosives the explosives is faster than deed against anything that drops turn one dumb shit like mom or vial and tokens and the tutor ups my reactiveness and consistency since it fetchs top early or deed or explosives... Explosives is great for blowing up shit smaller than your knights like opposing goyfs and can hit shit higher up too when ran with moxes not to mention tutor fetches dueling grounds or plague or cannonist post board or any other artifacts and enchantments you want even tide hollow sculler if you would want to add him...
The secret is in the side board in my opinion...There are 3 slots in the main deck in my opinion that are optional and they aint mox...And the drawing dead late thing I dont undertstand We run 8 fetches to tear 2 for 1 lands outta the deck and thin it and knight which tool boxes and tears lands out even if you tap fetch a fetch land and sack it to pump him +2 and thin out... Plus bob plus 3 tops so how is it that you find an issue getting what you need late? IMO the deck has great game vs a multitude of top decks and thats why the decks that place are running real close to the cookie cutter version with verdicts and moxes unless you want to go real aggro in which case you should just play dark zoo or some shit.....

ivanpei
02-24-2011, 07:08 PM
Hmmm, I couldn't really get through that oddly composed wall of text. ;) So basically you are saying GSZ is the SuXors and Mox is the RoXors because of the turn one bump up in speed. I agree it gives you more explosive openings, but what if your first few threats are answered. Say hymm gets spell pierced, or bob gets plowed. Both sides will be in top deck mode very soon. You don't always stick what you are casting, unless you goldfish too much...

Mox ruins the deck's attrition game severely. It ups the dead card count in a deck with too many late game dead cards already (lands, discard). By playing GSZ you are simply taking the "safe" route and ensuring a better late game when it comes down to attrition. GSZ is also a great speed boost early game and as Tao has pointed out, the flexibility is ridiculously useful. Right now I would only play mox if the meta was mostly combo or sligh, with very little midrange/control decks. I find that unlikely though as most of the field is usually some sort of midrange aggro-control.

Bignasty197
02-24-2011, 07:26 PM
After doing a bit of testing with this, I would definitely run Zenith as a 2-of in non-Mox builds. 2 Pridemages MD just add to the "Blow Stuff Up" factor of this deck. This plus Teeg from the board was pretty good in the combo MU.

The Big Ragu
02-24-2011, 10:30 PM
I couldn't read Deezy's poorly structured post.

deezy
02-25-2011, 12:23 AM
Hmmm, I couldn't really get through that oddly composed wall of text. ;) So basically you are saying GSZ is the SuXors and Mox is the RoXors because of the turn one bump up in speed. I agree it gives you more explosive openings, but what if your first few threats are answered. Say hymm gets spell pierced, or bob gets plowed. Both sides will be in top deck mode very soon. You don't always stick what you are casting, unless you goldfish too much...

Mox ruins the deck's attrition game severely. It ups the dead card count in a deck with too many late game dead cards already (lands, discard). By playing GSZ you are simply taking the "safe" route and ensuring a better late game when it comes down to attrition. GSZ is also a great speed boost early game and as Tao has pointed out, the flexibility is ridiculously useful. Right now I would only play mox if the meta was mostly combo or sligh, with very little midrange/control decks. I find that unlikely though as most of the field is usually some sort of midrange aggro-control.

Yeah my post sucked....LOL
Post a list Id like to see one Im curious to see yalls take...Dont get me wrong I like GRZ as a card it just feels like a package best suited for deck a built around it...Seems kinda like it would take away from the decks synergy to me...Also if you top deck a lanowar elf with no GRZ late game thats a bust and you still have land and disscard...It seems like you slow the deck down to gain what you say is an attirition game if I need creatures back I can pop in volraths stronghold.......Top plus eight fetches usually gets it done for me...Anyways Im curious to see your lists...and some data from some testing....

Dzra
02-25-2011, 12:27 AM
I'm not saying GSZ is a bad card. I just don't think this is the deck for it (without majorly revamping the deck). The requirements for double black on t2 make it really awkward. It's been great in Zoo testing since Zoo wants Green early anyways and can hold off on white/red until t2 or t3. We rarely want to be dropping threats (ie our Green cards) before we've disrupted them. If you want to design a more Junk aggro deck it might work out better.

sdematt
02-25-2011, 03:04 AM
First of all:

Holy fuck insane.zaine, separate your thoughts into coherent sentences. Periods are allowed on the internet. I understand where you're coming from, but more people will take your arguments seriously if you use real grammatical structure. Deezy, you too. You have good thoughts, but please organise them. It makes them easier to read. A wall of text like that usually makes me skip some of your posts, informative or useless drivel, I can't tell. This isn't high school English class, but still, respect the language :)

@ Green Sun Zenith:

I've seen it be played more and more, and I'm thinking you have to build around it, but it seems solid. I don't think you can just cut Moxen and shove them in, but I think with enough care and attention, a very solid list could be built around them. My friend is toying with a GSZ build, so I'll let you know how it goes. I didn't realize this also shuffles in, so it's better than I initially thought.

@ Tournament Report for 24/2/11 Legacy:

I ended up playing Rock to get some practice in for Sunday's tournament. I was toying with the list, and have tweaked it to the following:

3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords
2 Path

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Vindicate (I think I'm going to go with 3 Vindicate 1 Pulse for Sunday. I'm not always on the mana denial plan, and the miser's Pulse can sometimes be a blessing when you need more card advantage)

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Sensei's Divining-Top

Board:
A bit wonky since I knew there would be no combo, but I would see Meandeck MUD.

4 Null Rod instead of 4 Leyline of Sanctity, rest is the same as always.

---------------

I'll write more later, but I think against Kira and Progenitus, I'm in need of some Diabolic Edicts. It kind of sucked getting T3 Progenitus'd from a random Bant list after tearing apart his hand and laying Goyf. So awkward. As much as the Leylines give me massive game against combo, I'm at a loss at what to cut to keep everything I want to, and do well against Progenitus/Kira.

-Matt

ivanpei
02-25-2011, 03:52 AM
Losing to Proggy after you tear apart his hand is bad beats. This happened to me alot, especially if my opponent stuck the T1 Top. I found the best pre board way was to wreck the manabase. If you have an active knight, tear the opponent's mana to shreds before you start bashing. As for Kira, the card is annoying since you play so much removal. It's similar to mom. Usually I just power through Kira with more beats. That seems harder for your list with 8 giants + 1 elspeth. I have 4 GSZ and the 2nd elspeth for more beats. But since you are threat light, damnation is actually a good card out of the board. Opponents dont expect it so sandbag it and bait counters with other spells. Save it for last and blow out your opponent.

On GSZ, yes you can't just throw GSZ into any list. Your deck/manabase has to be carefully designed to incorporate it. Regarding the naming convention (junk/ zenith aggro/ rock), I can't really comment on it because GWB/BGW/WBG aggro all looks similar to me and all play 4 goyf, 4 bob, 4 KOTR. The supporting spells/dudes are the only differences.

deezy
02-25-2011, 08:27 AM
LOL!!!! Yeah I got ADD!!! so I just type shit as it comes and not really in any particular fashion or order......
Maybe I should actually plan what I want to say before typing....

sdematt
02-25-2011, 10:33 AM
I think perhaps replacing the 4 Leylines with 4 Edicts should help out, because Edicting away
Prog/Kira would be not bad. but, I could always go 2 Edict 2 Damnation, and replace a Deed when I board.

He stuck the first-turn Noble, and then ripped into it after Thoughtseize-Hymn. Frick.

-Matt

Arsenal
02-25-2011, 10:46 AM
For those running the 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 4 KotR creature suite, do you ever find yourself a bit threat-lite? Like, you run out a Confidant, then it gets StPed at the end of your turn, then you don't apply pressure at all for another 2-3 turns until you find another threat?

ivanpei
02-25-2011, 11:34 AM
For those running the 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 4 KotR creature suite, do you ever find yourself a bit threat-lite? Like, you run out a Confidant, then it gets StPed at the end of your turn, then you don't apply pressure at all for another 2-3 turns until you find another threat?

YES, thats why I play:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 KOTR
4 GSZ
2 Elspeth

This gives me 18 bombs to wrap up the game compared to the traditional 12. Thats what I like about GSZ most, it doubles as accelerator early and a threat later.

2Rach
02-25-2011, 11:51 AM
For those running the 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 4 KotR creature suite, do you ever find yourself a bit threat-lite? Like, you run out a Confidant, then it gets StPed at the end of your turn, then you don't apply pressure at all for another 2-3 turns until you find another threat?
Rarely, only in very long games. Usually against Countertop or the like. Between Top and fetches or Confidant I don't usually have a problem.

@GSZ+Arbor: Don't mind the card in this deck that much but speaking of Arbor, the acceleration of a only G mana doesn't really get there for this deck. You don't accelerate into Goyf, Knight's not really the best on turn two without multiple fetches/Mox, there's usually Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition/Gerrard's, and Swords in the first few turns, all not being able to utilize green mana making the "acceleration" very limited. On top of that, wanting to get a swamp instead of a Bayou on turn one like Dzra said.

I typed a big post a couple days ago about the comparison of Hierarch and Mox but decided not to post it. Guess I should have. Just to summarize; Noble Hierarch is only good on the first turn, and is bad on turns two to three because you want to do other stuff those turns. Even then it's not that great because I'd rather turn one Thoughtseize than play Hierarch, after which it's dead for the next couple of turns then becomes sub-par in that stage.

When it comes to topdecking Hierarch, a 0/1 or 1/2 is not going to win you the game in 99%(Pulled out of my Encyclopedia Buttanica) of situations. It arguably improves your topdecks slightly, though you end up having to pack more dual lands for black mana taking out utility lands that do win matchups(Maze/Karakas/Canopy, some run Bog main but I don't) which are not strictly bad topdecks.

Mox is good on any turns one to three because it can help you surprise your opponent with haste, while being zero mana will still allow you to play what you want. Adds black mana, which to me is the most useful color in the early turns(second- white for Swords/Vindicate).

Then there are other benefits like being good against land disruption. Nuts in the Goblins and Stompy matchups and good against Merfolk to get a turn two Hymn off or generally to nullify Daze/Cursecatcher that turn. Doesn't die to Perish in their sideboards. Although Hierarch does get you around Weirding, but I can handle losing a Goyf as long as I can play another with the mana stability Mox gives me.

And Mox's card disadvantage isn't so bad unless you have only one land in your starting hand, because all it does is make you discard a land which, depending on what it is, can have limited impact as long as you have two mana.


Prepost edit:

Thats what I like about GSZ most, it doubles as accelerator early and a threat later.
I like that but I question how useful Arbor acceleration is. And it, along with double Elspeth, makes your curve higher too which I like to keep away from. What's your list? What do you take out to make room?

from Cairo
02-25-2011, 02:37 PM
The downside of GSZ over mox and bop/noble is your manabase. You have to adjust accordingly to play GSZ into arbor. Usually you can play basics if you play mox or bop as forest -> bop or basic -> mox are very good plays. Forest-> GSZ however is a terrible play, you can't cast many non green spells like that. Arbor just makes green, so that's a pain in the ass, I am forced to play all duals and zero basics to try and balance it out. I don't get wrecked by wasteland due to playing 22 lands + 4 GSZ, but I might run the risk of being wastelocked or blood mooned out of the game. I guess its part of the trade off.


@GSZ+Arbor: Don't mind the card in this deck that much but speaking of Arbor, the acceleration of a only G mana doesn't really get there for this deck. You don't accelerate into Goyf, Knight's not really the best on turn two without multiple fetches/Mox, there's usually Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition/Gerrard's, and Swords in the first few turns, all not being able to utilize green mana making the "acceleration" very limited. On top of that, wanting to get a swamp instead of a Bayou on turn one like Dzra said.


These points I think are the really big issues with cramming GSZ in Nelson's list. The GSZ plan doesn't really help with color fixing the deck, it requires green mana to cast and can pull up Dryad Arbor, producing more green mana. The deck doesn't have early explosive plays to make use of double green mana though. Mox is nice because it accellerates at a more oppertune time getting turn 1 Bob or Hymn is a really big threat and it facilitates the same powerful turn 2 plays like KoR or 1cc disruption + Goyf.

It may come down to being a meta call, if you're faced with many attrition decks, going the GSZ approach might be right, favoring your late game at the expense of your early game. Although in an open meta I'd lean towards having the more explosive options (and stronger colored mana base) from Mox I think.

BWM
02-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Yes, a little...

However, I think 14 creatures would be too much and basicly I only want to play one extra.

I'm not really sure which one, but currently I have a Stirring Wildwood in the deck, just hate the fact he comes into play tapped, so you can't go "Surprise, blocker!!"

sdematt
02-25-2011, 09:10 PM
I don't usually find myself too threat light, but I'd love to play 8 Knights of the Reliquary. Obviously, it can happen, but more often than not I've got 1-2 creatures on board. Perish really sucks balls, though. I want to play Dauntless Escort in the board just against the Perish plan. Plus, a 3/3 for 3 isn't terrible, either.

Noble is good if you're not running Hymn, pretty plain and simple. If you do run Hierarch and Hymn, you're having to fetch double Bayou in the first two turns, which is not ideal in the "usual" lists running around. If I had to play a manadork in a Non-GSZ build, it may be Hierarch due to exalted winning Goyf wars way more often than you'd think. If you're running heavy black, like most builds, Mox is probably going to be your best bet. There is an upside, and I can't deny it, for Mox fucking over Wasteland a bit, tis true. But, if they Wasteland the land you fetched, you're still stuck on one with no lands to play subsequently, so you're still in the same boat, slightly.

I'd be interested in seeing Birds in the build with GSZ, but we'll see. It would give me an excuse to play 4 Beta Birds.

Also, does anyone have a source for a Beta Scrubland? I'm going to the tournament, but I'm short a Beta copy, and lord knows I don't want to play 3 Beta and 1 Revised *cuts wrists*

-Matt

ivanpei
02-25-2011, 11:21 PM
I agree, with the points being made. I'm not sure how your meta looks like, but I see alot of attrition decks in my area. Half my field is some kind of midrange aggro-control (First deck people build is some kind of Bant). GSZ, like mox has downsides. I play GSZ, I also play hymm. Strange? Yes and it fucks up my manabase because I'm so greedy. But it's working for me and YES I have tested against wasteland, I survived. Againt moon and waste-lock? I fail miserably. But it's part of the risks I take. Here's my list:

4 GSZ
4 Tarmogoyf
4 KOTR
4 Bob
2 Elspeth
1 Pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm
4 Vindicate
4 STP
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant
4 Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savanna
4 Wastes
1 Arbor

I'm very greedy, I admit. This has been working though and I stand by it. The extra threat density GSZ gives you and the versatility is just too good to turn down.

sdematt
02-25-2011, 11:34 PM
With 3-4 basics and 8-9 Fetches, you should be alright against Moon.

-Matt

ivanpei
02-25-2011, 11:58 PM
Unfortunately, I can't run basics because I need double black consistently by Turn 2 to cast Hymm. GSZ being able to produce just green forces me to play all duals and fetches. Also, I like 10 fetches in decks with KOTRs. Fetch + Top is also boss. Cheers for the hint, I'd go back to mox's + basics in a meta with moons.

Dzra
02-26-2011, 03:06 AM
Merfolk is going to play a Vial, Daze your GSZ, then Waste your Bayou and all you can do is stare down their growing board with one land in your hand. New Horizons is going to be similar except they have Stifle too. Goblins will have an easier time keeping you off Black mana for Engineered Plague. Not to mention Perish also is a free Wasteland.

Counterbalance will probably freak out a little bit. It's good there, no doubt. It's potentially good in the Combo MU too if they don't go off before t3.

You probably couldn't keep a 1 land, 1 GSZ hand any more than you could a 1 land, 1 Mox hand. Perhaps even less since you'd open yourself wide to Wasteland or Waste + any removal. Why not try it in a GW or a GWU deck with Terravores and Nobles or Zoo with Nacatls, etc... Something where you can safely fetch a basic Forest t1 and not open yourself up completely.

I see the appeal, but we don't win by having more threats than our opponent (usually). We mostly win because we deny them their resources and then drop a dude they can't answer in time.

damionblackgear
02-26-2011, 04:37 AM
So far the only 'worth it' arguements that I've seen that doesn't apply to both Mox and Zenith are color fixing and 1st turn Bob. If they're on the play they can still dazee your mox into waste your land. Yes, most lists need double black now (since everyone's running hymn). 1st turn bob is nice but you're probably not running him out there that fast (especially game 1). and you're probably going to be fine with all the fetches/duals you play. If not, then at least you'll have 2 mana if Zenith resolves... even if you kept the 1-land prayer hand. Both have risks and rewards. I honestly don't think hand disruption is the way to go anymore but that's my opinion.

sdematt
02-26-2011, 11:46 AM
I broke down and finished my Scrubland set. Huzzah!

-Matt

Dzra
02-26-2011, 12:24 PM
If they're on the play they can still dazee your mox into waste your land.

Fetch a basic land then play your Mox Diamond? Sounds like you are Waste and Daze proof.

And grats sdematt! Are you running without Wastelands?

sdematt
02-26-2011, 12:43 PM
No, I'm rawdogging this manabase:

4 Scrublands
3 Bayous
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog


So far, so good. I do slightly miss the extra swamp, but I figure I may switch out Bog for Swamp at the last minute. Any tips for playing against US players? Insult the flag, support gay marriage, and bring TimBits? (Look it up if you're not sure, they're donut-holes, I think you guys call em). Any other tips?

-Matt

Dzra
02-26-2011, 12:54 PM
Start a debate on Nationalized Health Care (pick the side opposite of them for extra fun!) and/or "recall" your rigorous upbringing as a devout Muslim. ;p If one of those doesn't throw them off guard, then the TimBits will surely do them in.

sdematt
02-26-2011, 01:12 PM
I'm sure if Dunkin' Donuts didn't have such a foothold, Tim Horton's would be in the States like a dirty shirt. They're opening locations in the middle east for Canadians working over there. Plus, there's one in Kandahar Airbase. Huzzah!

I'm all about the nationalized healthcare. Paying $50 a month and I'm able to have a heart attack seems good, but, if I'm waiting at the hospital if I have a broken arm, I may have to wait an hour or two. Big whoop. I think once Americans realize they need to care about everyone, and just themselves, they too can have a social healthcare network. I think Americans are concerned that they'll be "paying for someone else."

Good enough, or do I need to tone up the Canadian? :)

-Matt

sdematt
02-26-2011, 04:03 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0164.jpg

One Scrub and one Bayou in the mail. Proof so you guys don't think I'm blowing smoke :P

-Matt

deezy
02-26-2011, 05:06 PM
Yes, a little...

However, I think 14 creatures would be too much and basicly I only want to play one extra.

I'm not really sure which one, but currently I have a Stirring Wildwood in the deck, just hate the fact he comes into play tapped, so you can't go "Surprise, blocker!!"

Try nantuko monistary it is colorless and needs threshold but doesnt come in tapped and is 4/4 first stike which is nothing to sneeze at.....lol

deezy
02-26-2011, 05:14 PM
So far the only 'worth it' arguements that I've seen that doesn't apply to both Mox and Zenith are color fixing and 1st turn Bob. If they're on the play they can still dazee your mox into waste your land. Yes, most lists need double black now (since everyone's running hymn). 1st turn bob is nice but you're probably not running him out there that fast (especially game 1). and you're probably going to be fine with all the fetches/duals you play. If not, then at least you'll have 2 mana if Zenith resolves... even if you kept the 1-land prayer hand. Both have risks and rewards. I honestly don't think hand disruption is the way to go anymore but that's my opinion.

if they daze your mox though then you would still have a land to play since you dont actually pitch the land to mox until it resolves.....If they get your GSZ you get notta ...

deezy
02-26-2011, 05:28 PM
mox also means more lands in the yard for knight.... he can hit turn 2 as a 5/5 I dont think the GSZ can put him down like that...
mox has synergy with knight....For me Id rather turn one thoughtseize take theyre removal and see the coast is clear and turn 2 drop in a big knight and kick ass and not have 2 see the late game....I have thought of running a nantuko monistary in my util land base and maybe a Thurn or 2 in the board to piss off blue players and be able to go straight aggro on somebodys ass if I need though.....Also monistary could hit at instant speed and slips under counter even though he gets nailed by wasteland....
Thrun seems like he would be good vs counter top....

damionblackgear
02-26-2011, 08:38 PM
if they daze your mox though then you would still have a land to play since you dont actually pitch the land to mox until it resolves.....If they get your GSZ you get notta ...

Wasn't it agree'd on that 1 land 1 mox was usually a mulligan hand? (I'm not including hands already ) So, why would you keep a hand with just 1 land GSZ?


mox also means more lands in the yard for knight.... he can hit turn 2 as a 5/5 I dont think the GSZ can put him down like that...

You're right, but that's only relivant when you're playing combo (in which case you'd rather just make sure he gets down or do it for X=2 and grab a hate-bear) and Zoo... Where you'd rather make sure she's out of bolt range.

While not being able to TS before you play a T2 Knight is a bit of a downer, you'll survive with going a turn slower and being able to attack for 1. Besides, what if they decide to swords the little guy? that's one less peice of removal for your Knight.

-----

Basically, it seems that people are just closing their minds to GSZ at this point. I'm actually a little disapointed. Where is a good Pro-Rock list? This would fit amazingly into that. You can even keep the discard package but, you'll have to use G's Verdict a/o Cabal Theropy to have a better chance at casting them early. T1 GSZ-->T2 Knight --> T3 NO seems pretty good to me. Most decks will have to deal with the Knight anyway.

Also note, Arbor still sacs to knight (Dredge) and blocks Lackey (Gobo's). Neither of these are great preboard matches. Although, we do have better game than some other decks against the combonation of the two.

Tao
02-26-2011, 09:05 PM
Basically, it seems that people are just closing their minds to GSZ at this point. I'm actually a little disapointed. Where is a good Pro-Rock list? This would fit amazingly into that. You can even keep the discard package but, you'll have to use G's Verdict a/o Cabal Theropy to have a better chance at casting them early. T1 GSZ-->T2 Knight --> T3 NO seems pretty good to me. Most decks will have to deal with the Knight anyway.


This is (probably) not a perfect list, but the best I could come up with. It performs solid vs. everything.

3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Savannah
3 [U] Bayou
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [M11] Forest
1 [SOM] Plains
1 [TSP] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FNM] Eternal Witness
2 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage

3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [PT] Natural Order
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [GTW] Path to Exile
3 [JGC] Pernicious Deed

2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [M11] Duress
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap

BWM
02-27-2011, 02:52 AM
Try nantuko monistary it is colorless and needs threshold but doesnt come in tapped and is 4/4 first stike which is nothing to sneeze at.....lol

Yes, but it's not a surprise blocker if the (probably bigger) Knight gets him...

The Wildwood won me a game against dreadstill yesterday, so for today's tournament, it's staying in...

Dzra
02-27-2011, 12:53 PM
Wasn't it agree'd on that 1 land 1 mox was usually a mulligan hand? (I'm not including hands already ) So, why would you keep a hand with just 1 land GSZ?

Right, so let's say the hand is 2 fetches and 1 Mox Diamond or 1 GSZ.

Mox Diamond hand fetches a basic Swamp then attempts to cast Mox Diamond. They can't Daze anything yet. You can now play every 2-drop in your deck or have Daze protection for your 1-drops. You are also Wasteland proof.

GSZ hand fetches a Bayou and attempts to cast GSZ. The GSZ gets Dazed. You say go. They play a Wasteland and nuke your Bayou. Now you have one fetch left in your hand and you can fetch a Swamp and be safe or go for a dual to color fix (and open yourself up to double Wasteland). Whatever you choose, you will be in a really bad spot.

damionblackgear
02-27-2011, 02:42 PM
Right, so let's say the hand is 2 fetches and 1 Mox Diamond or 1 GSZ.

Mox Diamond hand fetches a basic Swamp then attempts to cast Mox Diamond. They can't Daze anything yet. You can now play every 2-drop in your deck or have Daze protection for your 1-drops. You are also Wasteland proof.

GSZ hand fetches a Bayou and attempts to cast GSZ. The GSZ gets Dazed. You say go. They play a Wasteland and nuke your Bayou. Now you have one fetch left in your hand and you can fetch a Swamp and be safe or go for a dual to color fix (and open yourself up to double Wasteland). Whatever you choose, you will be in a really bad spot.

Or you just get the forest and move on to the second land in your hand... They're tempo'd back a turn and you're with the second land to still operate. Later in the game you have 1-3 more live drops as opposed to drawing those Diamonds everyone seems to fancy. *Also, it's probably the better play to cast mox first and let it be countered instead of it being your relevant spell. Then, you have 2 Fetches, and are already around the Daze.

Yeah the daze situation... you don't have 2 lands on turn 1. Instead, you have a second land and are through a counter towards that would be pointed towards something far more relevant... or that 1st turn spell you were intending to play.

Next situation? Or are we done with this game? I mean seriously, we're being offered a card that will still accelerate us to turn 3 on turn 2 and not be dead late game. Is everyone so hung up on a list played when survival was part of the meta to not adjust? Things have changed. Time to start changing with them. The hardest part of playing Rock is that has to be flexible to changes in the (your) meta. The Mox was chosen because with Survival in the meta, decks needed to be faster. Now the decks are doing something else. They're destroying EVERYTHING they can. Creature decks are starting to suffer. Rock, is a creature deck, with a terrible draw engine. Why not give something with a possibility of something being better?

Dzra
02-27-2011, 03:38 PM
So you fetch the Forest and now you have 2 Green sources. (assuming nothing got Dazed or Wasted) You still have your fetch in hand. No matter what you do, you can't play Hymn or Vindicate. You can accelerate into a Knight (without disruption protection) or you can play a Goyf or a Bob (which you could have regardless of GSZ).

I'm not sure what terrible draw engine you mean either. Tops and Bobs are both great by themselves and together they are crazy. The only better draw engines I can think of are Jace or Enchantresses or Ad Nauseam.

Tao
02-27-2011, 03:56 PM
I mean seriously, we're being offered a card that will still accelerate us to turn 3 on turn 2 and not be dead late game. Is everyone so hung up on a list played when survival was part of the meta to not adjust?

Yes, Legacy players are extremely slow. If it worked once, they stay with it like forever. My goodness was it a hassle to make them play Vengevine in Survival decks. It took me a few months. They were like "eh this is bad why would you want to play a 4/3 haster for 4 when you just can play Goyfs this card is just bad this is Legacy dude111!".

Now it is the same with GSZ and Rock. It is blatantly obvious that this card belongs in the deck. I don't even know what to say anymore. Make it fucking work. It is awesome on T1, it is an awesome Topdeck, it increases the light threat count and even works as Enchantment/Artifact removal.

But if you really want it, then you can always come up with bullshit arguments like this:



Right, so let's say the hand is 2 fetches and 1 Mox Diamond or 1 GSZ.
GSZ hand fetches a Bayou and attempts to cast GSZ. The GSZ gets Dazed. You say go. They play a Wasteland and nuke your Bayou. Now you have one fetch left in your hand and you can fetch a Swamp and be safe or go for a dual to color fix (and open yourself up to double Wasteland). Whatever you choose, you will be in a really bad spot.

And what if a big cloud suddenly appears over your head and shoots a Thunder Bolt at you? What did GSZ then do for you? So if you don't want to get struck dead by Lightning, do not play GSZ. Or what? What the heck are you trying to say me? That worst case scenarios are bad?

damionblackgear
02-27-2011, 04:24 PM
You can accelerate into a Knight (without disruption protection) or you can play a Goyf or a Bob (which you could have regardless of GSZ).

You're right. I can play a Goyf or a Bob. and still have dealt with the Daze that you wanted to keep mentioning.


I'm not sure what terrible draw engine you mean either. Tops and Bobs are both great by themselves and together they are crazy. The only better draw engines I can think of are Jace or Enchantresses or Ad Nauseam.

Top is selection. Bob is a draw engine after he's lasted 2 turns. Outside of that, it's just a cantrip. There is a huge difference between a selection, cantrip and an engine.

I think Tao said it best,
What the heck are you trying to say me? That worst case scenarios are bad? You can create every worst case situation you can think of but, THAT's WHY THEY'RE WORST CASE. What are you going to do when you're on turns 4-8 and your bob wasn't drawn, got removed/countered and you top-deck a Mox? This isn't worst case. *This actually happens quite often when you play legacy. Bad draws are bad draws but, they can be made better. What if that Mox was a creature tutor? What's wrong with giving it a shot?

No, you can't vindicate with double green on turn 3... nor can you Hymn but, you can have a card that's not dead. You can play Bob or Goyf around a Daze. You can cast Engineered Plague/Choke/ Search for a hate-bear post-board with that two land hand. You get more consistency with the Zenith and sacrifice the explosion. Which if you can't deal without that then Rock is the wrong deck for you. Might I suggest Belcher.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse now. You're either going to give it a try, or not. Either way, my song and dance is done. I'm going to try it though. It doesn't look all that bad to me.

ZeinVoncy
02-27-2011, 04:51 PM
I personally do not find Green Sun's Zenith to be that good for Rock/Junk. If a more aggro version is being played, then sure, I'd use it in place of Fauna Shaman or build around it so that when I cast it, I'll have options. Personally, I would rather use Mirran Crusader over GSZ. The card is just better in my build. Just like any argument for GSZ, Crusader is bad in certain situations. GSZ REQUIRES mana acceleration, and having just one playset of Moxes or Noble Heirarch's is NOT good enough. Hence why it's a bomb card in Elves.

This is the time where players should be going with what they want, play testing it and putting out results. Its time for everyone to move away from "Brad Nelson's" list and get more creative. (and yes, trying to find use for GSZ is moving into a new direction)

This primer is huge and provides more options then everyone realizes. It's one reason why I have not posted as much b/c everyone is focused on the SAME arguments.
I've made my suggestions, while either being scoffed at (1 copy of Desolation Angel), to being ignored, (Wild Mongrel to ditch "dead cards" late game) to putting in some input, (Mox Diamond > Noble Hierarch imo), to now providing new suggestions, Mirran Crusader.

And it's not JUST statements I'm providing. I started my Rock list with Noble Hierarch, and if you go backtrack to the original primer, I was swearing that they were better then Moxes . . . and then I got moxes and tried them out. I'm not looking back, they are better and worth the late game dead draw. I've tried playing with no Tarmogoyfs (i know it's not an argument that's be brought up, i'm just stating I've tried different ideas.) If people are going to continue using "Brad Nelson's" list, then suck it up, use Moxes, don't even think about GSZ, b/c his version just doesn't cut it's worth. I know b/c I have experience, I'm trying these things out and looking at the results I'm seeing. I know people have a different meta-game, in that case, get another member's opinion/experience about the subject and make a call, don't kill half a page over what's right or wrong. Make your own choice.

Rock is versatile, yet we are not fully discussing it's versatility. We know what has worked to be decent, "Brad Nelson's" list, but yet even that isn't considered a DTB, nor is any other "Dark horizon's" list. So lets move on with ideas and arguments and start showing results. You want to play GSZ? Then do so, get results and let everyone else know the turn out. Post a list, discuss the changes you made and WHY. Otherwise all this banter is going to take up and waste X many pages, as I've been staying up to date with everyone's post.

@ BMW

I use to run Stirring Wildwood. I have a love/hate relationship, as it got around Countertop and Standstill based decks. CIPT is what drew the line for me, I've moved onto Nantuko Monastery and have found the overall presence better then Wildwood. The ONLY drawback for it is that it cannot blocks flyers, but in Legacy, any relevant flyer is bigger then 4/4 anyways and should be dealt with our spells. If you don't want to drop it, put one copy in your S/B for specific matches.

ivanpei
02-27-2011, 06:28 PM
Chill, I think the Mox homers should really proof read their arguments. Not very convincing. As for the Pro GSZ guys, yes this is something new and as usual legacy players despise change. Samething happened to Jace TMS, venge (myself included), even KOTR took some time to appear in legacy. Mox has it's benefits, gsz as well so lets leave it at that. @ tao's list: your deck looks like a blast to play. Seems like a mega-controlling old school rock. Interesting in this meta. Does it do well against aggro and midrange? Can we get some kind of MU breakdown?

sdematt
02-27-2011, 06:31 PM
The tournament I was going to was snowed upon, so I bailed.

Also, we should be discussing creativity. Rock has so many different angles and facets you can basically play any build you want to. Brad Nelson-esque lists are considered the norm because they are the lists that have done well in big tournaments. This is not to say another list can't I think people will go with the list they've seen do well.

If I went to that tournament today and won a Lotus with my build, and then proceeded to T8 several SCG Opens without mana acceleration, all of you would probably start to turn your heads and reconsider what you've been doing. It's just the nature of Magic and the Internet. If someone from here went to a big tournament and multiple people start using GSZ and do well, it's another competitive direction that this deck can go. Just because it hasn't done anything yet doesn't mean it won't ever.

As well, don't try to shoehorn GSZ into builds and say it's terrible. It probably is terrible in a deck filled with huge mana requirements like the Junk lists we've seen. It's just like if you wanted to stick Aether Vial in here: it's terrible just shoving 4 in. You have to build around it, ala Junk and Taxes. Same goes for GSZ. Most people opposed to it seem to have arguments about it going into Junk lists and I'll agree with them: don't shove it in, start fresh. There are advantages to playing either or both, but it comes down to one thing: they're different ideas in different directions, don't try to compare apples and oranges.

GSZ seems to have potential because of the nature of the evolution of the deck to that which has few, but beefy, beaters; answers to many things; and plays GBW.

What I'm saying is we don't need to be at odds over Noble vs. Mox, or GSZ vs. Mox, we can get around this and try to improve and innovate together instead of relentlessly bashing other ideas. Try to make them better nicely, not by saying an idea is wrong, but by suggesting a better alternative. Sometimes some cards are almost strictly better than others. For some, this line is not so definite. Desolation Angel may have a place in some builds, and perhaps we could discuss a build WHERE it would work, not by suggesting it's crap. It's only crap perhaps in the box we're trying to fit it into, not the one it actually fits in.

Hopefully you understood what I'm trying to say.

-Matt

Dzra
02-27-2011, 07:39 PM
I've tested GSZ in Naya, Bant, and Rock colors. So far, it's worked best in Naya with Bant coming up second. It's not a bad card, but it's not a control card because it doesn't help you stabilize. If anything, it makes you overextend. It's best used in an aggro deck.

When over half the top 16s coming in are decks with Wastelands, it isn't being a negative Nancy to look at the card and say "Does this help or hurt me if I come up against another deck running a mana denial plan?"

We don't need to beat this into the ground. If you are having a lot of success with your list, do some tournament reports and we can discuss it. Telling me I'm a fuddy duddy for not embracing the new tech isn't helpful either.

ivanpei
02-27-2011, 08:11 PM
I think sdematt got the point absolutely right: "Just because it doesn't fit into the right box, doesn't mean it isn't good". I'd like to see players here take GSZ to a tournament and write a report about it. I'm a new home owner with an impending marriage looming so flying to big tourneys is a bit out of the picture for me unfortunately. I still play often with my regular testing partners and I play against plenty of good decks like Bant (all types), TES, Reanimator, Landstill, Zoo, Folk, Goblins etc. Sigh, I'd love to go down to GP Singapore's Legacy side event with a GSZ deck to prove my point. Oh well, we'll see how the finance minister (Fiancee) and my leave plan works out.

pandaman
02-27-2011, 10:08 PM
I have been trying out a more controlling build of The Rock, as opposed to the PT Junk style deck, with Green Sun's Zenith. Would love to get a bit of feedback from others who have been testing such a list.

List

Land (24)

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (13)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

Instants (6)

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries (10)

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts (3)

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments (3)

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (0)

Not yet finalised

A little inspiration (actually a lot) from http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day1undefeated which went undefeated Day 1 at GP Madrid. I've always wanted to build it, and I finally have all the cards, and just picked up Green Sun's Zenith too.

This deck is slow, but once it gets going it seems to be able to gain control, especially if you get either Top, Library or Stronghold out. Library especially is ridiculous - finding Kitchen Finks and ensuring you get your 4 life back is fantastic. It's been playtesting well, but I won't be able to take it to any tournaments, because there aren't any around.

Has anyone else been playing a build like this? I think Green Sun's Zenith is working wonders in this, I especially like that you have essentially 4 Eternal Witness in your deck, when you have Volrath's Stronghold on the board, and essentially 5 Knight of the Reliquary if you have Witnesss/Shriekmaw on the board. Makes it a lot easier, along with Top and Library, to get those loops going if you need to bury someone with either recurring Deeds or Shriekmaws.

I would like to fit in either Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam to recur Volrath's Stronghold if it gets destroyed and Eternal Witness is already in the graveyard. Or would it be better to run 2 Eternal Witness to combat that, since it's tutorable in the deck (and returnable) where Crucible is not? Loam is good as always, especially with Top to let you know when it's safe to dredge it back.

Other thoughts include Cabal Therapy to combo with Kitchen Finks and Volrath's Stronghold, Hymn to Tourach, more Pernicious Deed and more Elspeth, or a singleton Maze of Ith. Not considering Natural Order/Progenitus at this point.

Thoughts from regular The Rock players would be appreciated, thanks guys and girls.

Bignasty197
02-27-2011, 10:35 PM
That looks interesting. I would probably cut the Path and Edict for 2 more Knights. They just seem random and its always good to see more Knights.

sdematt
02-28-2011, 01:36 AM
Rock made T8 :)

Seems to me Zenith is catching on: Zoo, NO Bant, etc. It seems to be allowing people to run a ton of one-of's: one-of KotR, RWM, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned, it allows you to tutor, and it shuffles in. What madness this is!

-Matt

pandaman
02-28-2011, 02:20 AM
Rock made T8 :)

Seems to me Zenith is catching on: Zoo, NO Bant, etc. It seems to be allowing people to run a ton of one-of's: one-of KotR, RWM, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned, it allows you to tutor, and it shuffles in. What madness this is!

-Matt

Good madness?

In relation to your comment Bignasty, I just like 5 Swords effects in the deck so far, even if it does seem random, gives you that slightly greater chance of drawing one and you generally need to see 2 fast removal spells in the early game to survive. I would like to run 6 actually, but finding room for Green Sun's Zenith was my first priority, so I'll consider the numbers again now. The Edict and Shriekmaw are there to for maindeck outs to Progenitus (Edict only) and Emrakul (both), and also with 5 one mana kill spells and 2 2 mana kill spells, it attempts to get you to that mid/late game you need to reach to start dominating with your card advantage and recursion/massive creatures. About Knight, same deal, wanted to try and fit in GSZ, so I cut one, there was originally 3. I feel that drawing Kitchen Finks early is more important than Knight. When you want Knight, you either draw her or you draw GSZ which allows you to find her. It's really a bomb card, but Kitchen Finks seems to be what you want early to stay alive, hence I cut a Knight and not a Finks, but was a hard decision.

There's just so much stuff I want to fit into this deck! More Pernicious Deed, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Knigh of the Reliquary, Kitchen Finks, Cabal Therapy... I think I could get away with cutting a land. Could I risk cutting a basic forest - if I do I won't be able to cast all my spells from basics in that instance (double Green for witness).

What do you all reckon - is 3 Sensei's Divining Top and 2 Sylvan Library too much? Since they almost do the same thing, could you go 2 Top 2 Library? Only bad thing is that you can save Top from Deed by you can't save Library, and having both makes Tarmogoyf really big.

Oh and last thought... Unearth as a one of? I've always thought it was a useful card, and especially in this deck.

Dzra
02-28-2011, 02:36 AM
The Rock deck only splashed Black for Thoughtseize and Gerrard's Verdict (and a pair of Extirpates in the SB). It's a lot like Junk and Taxes but with GSZ in place of Vials.

The BUG deck is really interesting too. If you watched the finals, Stifle was a house. Consuming Vapors in the SB is interesting and Go for the Throat seems like it might be the best spot removal in Black. Better hope you don't run into Affinity though. Imagine Consuming Vapors in a midranged Goyf/KotR/Tombstalker/Terravore mirror. Beast.

Tao
02-28-2011, 03:50 AM
I have been trying out a more controlling build of The Rock, as opposed to the PT Junk style deck, with Green Sun's Zenith. Would love to get a bit of feedback from others who have been testing such a list.

List

Land (24)

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (13)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

Instants (6)

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries (10)

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts (3)

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments (3)

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (0)

Not yet finalised

A little inspiration (actually a lot) from http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day1undefeated which went undefeated Day 1 at GP Madrid. I've always wanted to build it, and I finally have all the cards, and just picked up Green Sun's Zenith too.

This deck is slow, but once it gets going it seems to be able to gain control, especially if you get either Top, Library or Stronghold out. Library especially is ridiculous - finding Kitchen Finks and ensuring you get your 4 life back is fantastic. It's been playtesting well, but I won't be able to take it to any tournaments, because there aren't any around.

Has anyone else been playing a build like this? I think Green Sun's Zenith is working wonders in this, I especially like that you have essentially 4 Eternal Witness in your deck, when you have Volrath's Stronghold on the board, and essentially 5 Knight of the Reliquary if you have Witnesss/Shriekmaw on the board. Makes it a lot easier, along with Top and Library, to get those loops going if you need to bury someone with either recurring Deeds or Shriekmaws.

I would like to fit in either Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam to recur Volrath's Stronghold if it gets destroyed and Eternal Witness is already in the graveyard. Or would it be better to run 2 Eternal Witness to combat that, since it's tutorable in the deck (and returnable) where Crucible is not? Loam is good as always, especially with Top to let you know when it's safe to dredge it back.

Other thoughts include Cabal Therapy to combo with Kitchen Finks and Volrath's Stronghold, Hymn to Tourach, more Pernicious Deed and more Elspeth, or a singleton Maze of Ith. Not considering Natural Order/Progenitus at this point.

Thoughts from regular The Rock players would be appreciated, thanks guys and girls.

That list looks very similar to my list from last page, especially the creature numbers. That GP list looks interesting, too.
The biggest difference is that I use the Natural Order package (and Cabal Therapies). About NO itself I am not even 100% sure, but it is quite good and someone asked for a NO Zenith Rock list so I posted my current list. I also have a list without these cards, it is even more similar to what you posted. One of the biggest advantages of playing NO is that you don't autolose to NO bant anymore. Discard and removal is nice and all, but Control Rock is not fast and with the help of Top, Brainstorm and Ponder (plus Fetchland/Arbor) they will usually get there before you come close to killing them. Also, NO/Prog will just get you a good number of random wins like it does best and a powerful tool against Control decks.

Now if you play NO/Prog you have to play Therapies, because otherwise you can't get rid of a Prog stuck in your hand an acceptable manner (Thoughtseizing yourself usually isn't) and that will happen sometimes if the games go long with Deed and Removal. But Therapies are awesome, even without NO/Prog. With Finks, Witnesses and Dryad Arbors you have a ton of ways to Flashback them for free. I also like having a second Dryad Arbor in the deck for that reason. You will often enough get value out of it and at worst it is a CIPT forest. So I suggest you try 2 Therapies and see if you like them. Wall of Blossoms is another card I personally like a lot and in the current Meta you often get value out of it (Nacatl, Merfolks, Goblins).

ivanpei
02-28-2011, 04:01 AM
Holy Crap, there's like a million GSZ builds out there. GSZ haters, check out the Latest Starcity open's Top 16. It's freaking everywhere. 6 out of the Top 16 decks ran 3/4 GSZ. That's 37.5%. Point proven.

pandaman
02-28-2011, 07:26 AM
That list looks very similar to my list from last page, especially the creature numbers. That GP list looks interesting, too.
The biggest difference is that I use the Natural Order package (and Cabal Therapies). About NO itself I am not even 100% sure, but it is quite good and someone asked for a NO Zenith Rock list so I posted my current list. I also have a list without these cards, it is even more similar to what you posted. One of the biggest advantages of playing NO is that you don't autolose to NO bant anymore. Discard and removal is nice and all, but Control Rock is not fast and with the help of Top, Brainstorm and Ponder (plus Fetchland/Arbor) they will usually get there before you come close to killing them. Also, NO/Prog will just get you a good number of random wins like it does best and a powerful tool against Control decks.

Now if you play NO/Prog you have to play Therapies, because otherwise you can't get rid of a Prog stuck in your hand an acceptable manner (Thoughtseizing yourself usually isn't) and that will happen sometimes if the games go long with Deed and Removal. But Therapies are awesome, even without NO/Prog. With Finks, Witnesses and Dryad Arbors you have a ton of ways to Flashback them for free. I also like having a second Dryad Arbor in the deck for that reason. You will often enough get value out of it and at worst it is a CIPT forest. So I suggest you try 2 Therapies and see if you like them. Wall of Blossoms is another card I personally like a lot and in the current Meta you often get value out of it (Nacatl, Merfolks, Goblins).

Cheers for the comments Tao. It is very similar to your list actually, except for the NO package. If I were going to run NO I would definitely run something extremely similar to your list.

Did some playtesting tonight with the list against 4 colour CounterTop (UGWR) and Rb Goblins. Great against Countertop, not so hot against Goblins, although I don't know how much of that is down to variance. Goblins did have a Lackey Lackey draw the first game when I took Ringleader with Thoughtseize and Swords to Plowshares on the first Lackey, and then triple Ringleader into Wort, Boggart Auntie recurring Gempalm Incinerators... I made that Goblins deck, I shouldn't bitch...

Tao, I love the idea of getting Therapy in there. Really love the idea. I want it in! From my testing tonight I have also discovered that I also want Unearth and Life from the Loam as singles. Oh and your second Dryad Arbor is a good idea with Theray too, I like it. And finally, I never considered Wall of Blossoms before. Having a 0/4 drawing you a card would be excellent if you were planning on dropping Elspeth in a couple of turns.

Also, in relation to the manabase, my build needs more Savannah and less Bayou and Scrubland. Only 10 cards use black, but 18 cards use white and 20 cards use green. 3 Bayou 3 Scrubland 1 Savannah manabase from PT Junk doesn't cut it, I think it should be 3 Savannah 2 Scrubland 1 Bayou, or something like that.

So my revised list for testing (hopefully tomorow night) is:

List

Land (23)

1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (12)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

Instants (6)

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Chainer's Edict

Sorceries (12)

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam

Artifacts (2)

2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments (3)

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (0)

Not yet finalised

My only fear is that it may be a bit light on the ground for threats. However, there are 3 GSZ in there, getting you whatever you need basically whenever you need it and shuffling back to boot. So we'll give it a go.

Oh and ivanpei, 22 copies of GSZ in the Top 16 by my count. 24 copies of Force of Will. Close!

sdematt
02-28-2011, 10:03 AM
I've been playing Team America for a while as well, but I found it had Tribal woes far greater than that of Rock. I'm interested to see what decks he played against.

-Matt

AggroSteve
02-28-2011, 01:14 PM
does anyone have a link to the top 16 from last starcity games..... i am looking for some inspiration

Aznopium
02-28-2011, 01:48 PM
does anyone have a link to the top 16 from last starcity games..... i am looking for some inspiration

pyr

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-02-27&end_date=2011-02-27&event_ID=20

Dzra
02-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Holy Crap, there's like a million GSZ builds out there. GSZ haters, check out the Latest Starcity open's Top 16. It's freaking everywhere. 6 out of the Top 16 decks ran 3/4 GSZ. That's 37.5%. Point proven.

I don't think anyone here said GSZ is a bad card.


I've been playing Team America for a while as well, but I found it had Tribal woes far greater than that of Rock. I'm interested to see what decks he played against.

I was under that impression also. Not having white means you are lacking for spot removal. Maybe Go for the Throat is good enough to help those MUs out. It's also interesting that he went with EE over Deed. I can't imagine why except that he might have been expecting more Countertop/Dredge than Goblins/Affinity. The deck seems like it would have real game against Countertop either way though.

2Rach
02-28-2011, 05:11 PM
Just split top two in a 59 player tournament, winning 2x JaceTMS. My co-finalist let me have the Jaces since he was a friend.

Same list as San Jose, with slightly different sideboard.

FieryBalrog
02-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Just split top two in a 59 player tournament, winning 2x JaceTMS. My co-finalist let me have the Jaces since he was a friend.

Same list as San Jose, with slightly different sideboard.

Congrats! Any chance of another super-detailed report?

PanderAlexander
02-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Just split top two in a 59 player tournament, winning 2x JaceTMS. My co-finalist let me have the Jaces since he was a friend.

Same list as San Jose, with slightly different sideboard.

You've learned the ins and outs of the deck, your performance with it has been excellent and consistent. But you already sold a part of your deck! (thoughtseizes).

sdematt
02-28-2011, 10:00 PM
I'd like to see a tournament report, good sir.

-Matt

Sintheros
02-28-2011, 11:42 PM
Where are all the Bobs lately? It's not much of the rock without Bob.

Rainbow Maker
03-01-2011, 06:26 AM
I think sdematt said it best about how people will dismiss people's ideas until it places high in an event. This isn't new but it still holds true. An example was a while ago, basically when i converted deadguy ale into junk, i kept 2 mystics. People told me i think on a couple forums i was an idiot, our creatures are big enough etc.When i played at scg san jose i didn't do stellar but i still ended 5-3 I did get unlucky, very unlucky but i have to saw the mystics saved me all throughout the day. It not being perishable or submerge target won me multiple games in that day. It did help against decks like dredge too. My point being is ultimately it's what you think. The more comfortable you are with a list the betteryou will play with it. I think i will be taking a rather extended leave from this deck. I am not really enjoying it,

sdematt
03-01-2011, 09:48 AM
Why are you leaving it?

At least, give us some reasons why you're taking a leave of absence from the deck.

-Matt

Dzra
03-01-2011, 10:59 AM
I'll tell you, that BUG list is really turning my head... ;p But I doubt I'll want to switch before the SCG open near Dallas. If combo continues to be a growing presence in the meta then that might be the way I'll go. There's still a whole lot of tribal out there though and I feel like Affinity is just waiting for a breakout.

2Rach
03-01-2011, 11:12 AM
No, not this time.

Just a summary: I went 4-1-1 in the swiss and then met PanderAlexander in the finals.

Round 1: Aggro Loam 2-0
Round 2: Enchantress 2-0
Round 3: Dredge 1-2
Round 4: Big Zoo 2-(1?)
Round 5: Not sure
Round 6: ID with Turbo-Drazi
Quarter: Dredge 2-0 (Same guy as before. Mull to four and got really bad dredges 1st game.)
Semi: Show and Tell/Natural Order 2-1
Final: Split/drop.



You've learned the ins and outs of the deck, your performance with it has been excellent and consistent. But you already sold a part of your deck! (thoughtseizes).
Heh, I'll wait for them to come down after they rotate.

deezy
03-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Holy Crap, there's like a million GSZ builds out there. GSZ haters, check out the Latest Starcity open's Top 16. It's freaking everywhere. 6 out of the Top 16 decks ran 3/4 GSZ. That's 37.5%. Point proven.

I wouldnt exactly say we are GSZ haters as in I think most of us that have chosen not to run it have said the card has a place..
The topic at hand was does it belong in ROCK.. I believe I and some others made the comments that the card belonged in an aggro build and thats exactly what the builds that ran it were...So I dont understand.. What point was proved.. The junk list that placed was a hybrid deck not straight rock and its not like GSZ put the deck over the top.. ROCK placed before and placed better so not sure what point for or against GSZ could be drawn here..

Lets see a card that fetches any green creature for one extra mana being good in a toolbox aggro deck. Thats not a real stretch to say that the card might be good...People had it in random decks at Indy when I was there and it had just dropped...

I keep my position that in order to use zenith you must entirely revamp the deck and even after doing so the end product is not superior..

Hell if the debate was will people use GSZ in decks with some success I think any idiot could see that its almost certain..

deezy
03-01-2011, 09:20 PM
There were 9 decks out of 16 running wasteland....33 wastelands total....2 decks with stifle on board....3 magnus of the moon..
1 blood moon and 2 cruible and atleast 4 or 5 price of progress in the top 16.....And holyshit 14 of the 16 decks had basic lands in the mana base which means that it is wise to run at least a few basics in the manabase... Its not accident that these decks have basics. Of the decks that didnt run them atleast 1 had stifle and counter spells to defend against land denial the other was a combo deck that didnt need to worry about it.....So People for cryin out loud if you want a sound deck that can compete at something more than a local 5 man tourney get your manabase sound....

sdematt
03-02-2011, 02:30 AM
What about using GSZ to fetch out green creatures we can't cast? Just hear me out before you tie me to the cross (Tivadar's Crusade)

Example, what about a one-of Rafiq of the Many, or something like this? Access to a huge beater (or, turning a Knight/Goyf into a freakin' monster) could be good. I'm not saying we should be running 20 creatures to do this, but even running something like this as a one-of backed by Birds for the hardcast (if necessary) might not be a terrible idea.

I'm just brainstorming, so let's talk about it. Rafiq would give you some extra punch, and at 5 mana turning your KotR into a 14/14 essentially is pretty good, especially if they only have a few out, meaning they MUST block it. Just a thought.

-Matt

Nidd
03-02-2011, 02:34 AM
What about using GSZ to fetch out green creatures we can't cast? Just hear me out before you tie me to the cross (Tivadar's Crusade)

Example, what about a one-of Rafiq of the Many, or something like this? Access to a huge beater (or, turning a Knight/Goyf into a freakin' monster) could be good. I'm not saying we should be running 20 creatures to do this, but even running something like this as a one-of backed by Birds for the hardcast (if necessary) might not be a terrible idea.

I'm just brainstorming, so let's talk about it. Rafiq would give you some extra punch, and at 5 mana turning your KotR into a 14/14 essentially is pretty good, especially if they only have a few out, meaning they MUST block it. Just a thought.

-Matt
Considering that most lists already pack Moxen or Hierarchs, this might actually be a good idea.

There is no card that breaks Goyfstalls the way Rafiq does.

ivanpei
03-02-2011, 04:10 AM
I'm not going to feed the trolls so I'll continue discussing "constructively". Singleton rafiq is pretty hot. It's like tutorable equipment. If you are on that vein trygon predator is an option as well. Dark bant anyone? I saw a terravore in Alix Hatfield's Gsz list. He ran 4 heirarchs, 4 gsz. Terravore IMO is a very good choice. I've lost plenty of games to tribal because they chump block my knights till they can swarm me. War marshall is a bitch. If you have more than 2 lands in gy, terravore will ALWAYS be bigger than kotr in the GSZ midrange mirror. Something tells me the mirror will be very common from now on.

Ps Alix Hatfield plays Gsz. For one of the greatest innovators/ players in mtg to play it is good enough for me.

deezy
03-02-2011, 08:10 AM
What about using GSZ to fetch out green creatures we can't cast? Just hear me out before you tie me to the cross (Tivadar's Crusade)

Example, what about a one-of Rafiq of the Many, or something like this? Access to a huge beater (or, turning a Knight/Goyf into a freakin' monster) could be good. I'm not saying we should be running 20 creatures to do this, but even running something like this as a one-of backed by Birds for the hardcast (if necessary) might not be a terrible idea.

I'm just brainstorming, so let's talk about it. Rafiq would give you some extra punch, and at 5 mana turning your KotR into a 14/14 essentially is pretty good, especially if they only have a few out, meaning they MUST block it. Just a thought.

-Matt

Could be devastating.....I think having one of rafiq makes sense if you are gonna run zenith....Worth a shot anyway...

ZeinVoncy
03-02-2011, 09:42 AM
For one more mana, why not just get Lord of Extinction? My point being is that making your creature big doesn't do much. Chump block the baddie. We need to provide evasion for our creatures to get through. Rafiq is nice, I love the card and even played Mythic Bant in Standard for awhile, but Rafiq very rarely survives long enough to be effective. Its a reason why sovereigns was the more popular version of the deck.
Try it out and lmk, maybe its better then I think, but my past experiences don't get my hopes high. I'd personally run another Elspeth in that playspot.
Trygon Predator would be pretty fantasic imo. I like destroying thing for free.
Finally had a chance to try out Selkie, and honestly am bummed out. Maybe I need to have elspeth out in order to appreciate it more. Why does everyone else find it so good?

ivanpei
03-02-2011, 09:54 AM
He is sucky without exalted triggers. Bob No 5 is not terrible though. Honestly I prefer him as a SB card. I'd run selkie in the blue versions because Bant can't play Bob and at worst, he pitches to Force. If you draw Selkie in The Rock against aggro, it's a dead card, awkward!

deezy
03-02-2011, 11:02 AM
Why do people start to debate.. Get totaly off topic..Act like they are pioneering some ground breaking new tech that was completely unforseen to everyone..Then throw out the name of someone who places frequently that used the card ( In a completely different deck I might add) as if these guys are the end all of magic wisdom..And this somehow validates what they were saying..
I guess I must be one of the greatest innovators of all time then since like 3 pages ago I said that GSZ belongs in a deck like bant or something that runs natural order...Cause thats exactly what Alix hatfield played GSZ in...LMAO

I'm not trying to be a dick..But the debate topic was does GSZ belong in ROCK..Does it make ROCK better..After all this is the ROCK forum....I say no..
I play rock cause I love control with fat beaters..I dont feel like GSZ fits the control aspect of the deck..If you wanna play a dark zoo of sorts or some kind of junk and taxes then sure...Not my style...

I said that in order to use GSZ you have to completely change the build..And the junk build that placed was completly changed..Now the questions is..Is it better?..Well it didnt place higher than any junk build ever so the answer is NO...Atleast for now..Is it as good?..thats debateable....

But in no way shape or form did I ever say that GSZ wasnt good, wouldnt be used or anything of the sorts.....

sdematt
03-02-2011, 01:33 PM
The build would have to be completely different.

I'm not one to say "whatever the pro's use must be good," but generally if they're putting up numbers with a card, it's for a reason. Either they see potential or are just trying it out. While I'm not a fan of Alix Hatfield, I respect the fact he's using the card and at least trying it out. Great innovator? Meh. Should we see how he does with it? Probably.

A good example is Team America. Dan is an EXCELLENT Team America player because he's the guy who started the deck. Play skill has a lot to do with tournament placings. We might all try GSZ and cry because it's terrible, but this could be due to luck and skill. To be honest, I'm not the best Rock player in the world; I only play Magic a few times a week. I don't get many 8-hour sessions to test in. But, I try to make the games I play count, or I do serious testing in the time I do play.

To me, GSZ is another direction Rock can go, as is Aggro-Rock, Vial Rock, Junk and Taxes, and Fraggle Rock.

In short, Deezy, don't hate on Ivan, he's expanding another direction. Ivan, don't play it just because Alix is playing it, play it because you'd like to develop it. Is it a direction I personally want to go? To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in that direction for myself. I probably won't build a GSZ Rock build in real life, but I'd still like to help and make suggestions and make progress in that direction. I don't want the Rock thread to fragment into 7 threads for every direction, since all of them will fail. Again, everyone just try to make your criticism constructive and not just bashing the shit out of other people.

BTW: Got my last Beta Bayou in teh mail. I am excite.


-Matt

deezy
03-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Well put sdematt I guess it depends on play style...I respect the hell out of any one pushing the boundries.. I just dont want to be put on one side of the fence about a card (that I like by the way) just cause I think its better suited in another deck...
I'd utilize it in a build that can completely abuse it...
Bant has the multi colored dudes to support it for sure like you said rafiq,quasali, trygon,teeg,knight,and goyf,hirearch....and has access to counter magic to back it up and not to mention can produce the colors needed to cast all of the above and isnt restricted in the least for its color early..GSZ fits right in and is streamline in that type of package and strategy...Just seems clunky in a rock build that needs black early for disruption and only has a few benificial targets..
Thats all I was ever getting at....

ZeinVoncy
03-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Just to bring up the point again, what about consideration of using Wild Mongrel to Junk Rock? 2cc, can change colors, fills up your graveyard to beef himself, KotR, and Goyf.
He makes use of dead late game cards like Hymns, Thoughtseize, and Moxes.

deezy
03-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Just to bring up the point again, what about consideration of using Wild Mongrel to Junk Rock? 2cc, can change colors, fills up your graveyard to beef himself, KotR, and Goyf.
He makes use of dead late game cards like Hymns, Thoughtseize, and Moxes.

Dont think it could be shluffed off...Have you tested it? Def worth some testing IMO....

sdematt
03-02-2011, 03:41 PM
What's the point of changing it's colour though, or just to pump?

-Matt

ZeinVoncy
03-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Dont think it could be shluffed off...Have you tested it? Def worth some testing IMO....
I have not, I just recently put in the deck as 3x of. Am waiting to get a chance to use it and provide experienced advice on it.


What's the point of changing it's colour though, or just to pump?

-Matt

Survives Perish and makes it harder for people to use Mother of Runes. That's about I all can think about as a bonus that's relative. Could be a possible post-board if not wanting to M/D it, I'd rather see it M/D then post though, IMO.

sdematt
03-02-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm very keen to run a 1-of Dauntless Escort with GSZ to screw over Perish, but I can see where that Mongrel ability could be great. Very interesting.

-Matt

sdematt
03-02-2011, 06:05 PM
What about something along the lines of:

8 Fetches
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1/2 Savannah
1/0 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Birds of Paradise/Noble (Probably birds, though)
1 Dauntless Escort
2 Qasali Pridemage


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition/Cabal Therapy/EE
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate

Board:
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Thrunn, the Last Troll
2 duress/Cabal/IoK
3 Engineered Plague
1 Trygon Predator
3 Grave/Storm Hate

Thoughts? Trygon is just there against stuff like Stax, Blood Moon based decks, etc. Thrun comes in against CounterTop, Progenitus against other NO Bant and Tribal as does Plague, etc.

-Matt

ivanpei
03-02-2011, 06:15 PM
I for one believe that without gsz, The Rock or any midrange green deck in general cannot compete. Especially in the mid range mirror with a deck packing gsz. This might sound overly dramatic but it is a fact. Take your non - gsz builds and go 20 games against a competitive list with gsz. The consistency it provides is unparalleled. I don't play it because of hatfield. I played it even before he played it in SCG. See the zenith order thread in ND? I started it, that's how much I believe in it. The card is on the same power level as brainstorm. That is the reason I play it.

@ sdematt. Without any need for double black in that list, I suggest nobles. The exalted is pretty important. Dauntless escort should be kotr and the 2nd pridemage could well be the 4th bob since you also play vindicates. The list looks pretty solid! Maybe a trop somewhere would be ok too.

wizard_of_gore
03-02-2011, 06:16 PM
@sdematt

Your list looks like more traditional rock (which i like :wink:).

But i would go with:

-1 scrubland
+1 bayou (because you constantly need green mana on first turn for bop/noble or gsz)
-1 qasali (one should be fine, it can be fetched, othervise you have vindicate)
+1 witness/finks (it would be nice to fit them since you can grab it)

Play cabal therapy in place of duress/iok. Combined with thoughtseize it can be so powerful, and you can sac your birds/arbor/finks(if you play them) in mid/late game to trade them for the cards in opponents hand.

That's my opinion.

ZeinVoncy
03-02-2011, 08:24 PM
I'm very keen to run a 1-of Dauntless Escort with GSZ to screw over Perish, but I can see where that Mongrel ability could be great. Very interesting.

-Matt

Would not have to run GSZ w/ Mongrel, but the same slot would be interchangeable, would depend on how the pilot plays. Both have same intentions, I feel that Mongrel would be the more aggressive approach where Escort is the safety measure.


What about something along the lines of:

8 Fetches
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1/2 Savannah
1/0 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Birds of Paradise/Noble (Probably birds, though)
1 Dauntless Escort
2 Qasali Pridemage


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition/Cabal Therapy/EE
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate

Board:
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Thrunn, the Last Troll
2 duress/Cabal/IoK
3 Engineered Plague
1 Trygon Predator
3 Grave/Storm Hate

Thoughts? Trygon is just there against stuff like Stax, Blood Moon based decks, etc. Thrun comes in against CounterTop, Progenitus against other NO Bant and Tribal as does Plague, etc.

-Matt

Looks solid, personally:
3 Noble Heirarch
2 Cabal Therapy
-1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Cabal Therapy

-1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Dark Confidant

-1 Scrubland
+1 Tropical Island (backup measure for Rafiq and needing U source)

Get 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant into S/B. Her + rafiq = GG

I'd probably consider:
-1 Hierarch
+1 Eternal Witness

deezy
03-02-2011, 09:07 PM
I for one believe that without gsz, The Rock or any midrange green deck in general cannot compete. Especially in the mid range mirror with a deck packing gsz. This might sound overly dramatic but it is a fact. Take your non - gsz builds and go 20 games against a competitive list with gsz. The consistency it provides is unparalleled. I don't play it because of hatfield. I played it even before he played it in SCG. See the zenith order thread in ND? I started it, that's how much I believe in it. The card is on the same power level as brainstorm. That is the reason I play it.

@ sdematt. Without any need for double black in that list, I suggest nobles. The exalted is pretty important. Dauntless escort should be kotr and the 2nd pridemage could well be the 4th bob since you also play vindicates. The list looks pretty solid! Maybe a trop somewhere would be ok too.

Interesting...do you feel that this applies to all lists or just rock...The only reason I asked is there were Zoo decks that placed that run both.....

Rainbow Maker
03-02-2011, 09:08 PM
the problem with gsz is that you have less disruption (hymn) It just looks like a junk and taxes list which is imo better as you get better games agaisnt control tribal, make a more stable manabase, tempo decks don't hurt as much, let's you curve out better and gives you more threats with utility. also you get more CA and virtual CA

deezy
03-02-2011, 09:48 PM
the problem with gsz is that you have less disruption (hymn) It just looks like a junk and taxes list which is imo better as you get better games agaisnt control tribal, make a more stable manabase, tempo decks don't hurt as much, let's you curve out better and gives you more threats with utility. also you get more CA and virtual CA

How do you get better card advantage with less disruption hymm creates the best card advantage possible and punishes marginal hands...


I actually feel like GSZ slowed and weakend the meta and under performed in its debute....In the fact that decks in the top 4 havent had a respectable showing like that in awhile....Whens the last time enchantress did somthing? or doomsday? Apparently the ole GSZ for pridemage just isnt as strong as everyone though it would be....

deezy
03-02-2011, 09:55 PM
None of the top 4 ran GSZ and none of them had placed that high recently....I think there was the amount of zenith decks simply due to the fact the card is interesting and people wanted to try to use it and not because of its power and performance...
Its not coinsidence that all four of the top decks had not been able to post those places until everyone was trying to use zenith.
The change in the meta allowed them to do what they did..

ivanpei
03-02-2011, 10:17 PM
Wow talk about self serving delusions. Anyway, lets move forward constructively. I still believe Hymm and GSZ can survive in the same deck. You have to sacrifice your manabase stability though. I play without basics to compensate for Hymm's double black. I know its ballsy, but look at the SCG winner, Team America. Hymm + no basics + 4 wastes. Same concept.

deezy
03-02-2011, 11:10 PM
Thats my true feelings I'm not just saying it for the heck of it to get to anybody... After looking closely at the standings and lists thats what I saw...I could be off here but I guess the up coming standings for the next events will tell..

Also I saw lists place from the zoo decks that were with and without zenith which tells me zenith builds didnt over power theyre standard counterparts I feel like this is the case with other decks as well.....Its not uncommon to see a spike in the use of a good card at the first event after its release.. This is the first event people have had time to test with zenith and get theyre lists ready good and early...I think zenith is definately here to stay but wont be seen as previlant in the future...

jazzykat
03-03-2011, 05:46 AM
My opinion purely based on conjecture is that GSZ is probably better for mid-range decks such as the Rock and not as good for fast decks like small Zoo. The reasoning being you will eventually get to the mid game and keep dropping land, GSZ will allow you to pull up a Goyf or KoTR for an extra mana AND it gets shuffled back into your deck which may or may not be relevant. It also helps you get around strange manabase issues like not having the white for KoTR.

Using it in small Zoo turns on Spell Pierce (as opposed to hardcasting the creature) and keeps Daze relevant for an extra turn, I don't see that helping your tempo.

I think it will shine the most in a mid-range deck that is forced to play less than the best green creatures (Tarmogoyf and KoTR). Then you can play more of your big threats (via GSZ) while still being able to find Silver Bullet creatures (also via GSZ). Making it like a worse/better SotF replacement.

novatinhu
03-03-2011, 08:32 AM
My currently list is:

// Spells \\
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (Maybe split with Seize)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith (Tottaly insane!!!)
3 Vindicate (Pulse?)
2 Sylvan Library
2 Diabolic Edict (maybe split with Path to exile)

// Creatures \\
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks (maybe 2)
3 Dark Confidant (Maybe 4)
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch (Birds is better?)
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness

// Lands \\
3 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plains
1 Swamp

// SB \\
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Choke
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Relic of Progenitus


What did you thik? Any to change?

Thx

brianw712
03-04-2011, 04:28 PM
I don't think Rafiq is all that good, even if we can hardcast it off of Moxes/Nobles. It just seems win-more. Sure you could probably steal a few wins because people aren't expecting it, but I expect that in the majority of situations your double-striked guy will just get chumped, in which case getting Rafiq wasn't much better than just grabbing another Knight. And since we don't play RWM or evasion creatures we don't get as much out of Rafiq as Aggro Bant would. Maybe in a build with Elspeths and Moms it would work.

How about this for a GSZ rock list?

Lands (23):

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures (20):

4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

Spells (17):

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 GSZ
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Sideboard (15):

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Trygon Predator

ZeinVoncy
03-04-2011, 05:48 PM
GSZ + Gaddock Teeg = bad match. He prevents you from casting it again.

brianw712
03-04-2011, 08:06 PM
Yea, but I think the benefits of being able to steal some games against combo game one outweigh the dissynergies. He's also not terrible against the rest of the format, shutting off Jaces and FoW.

FieryBalrog
03-05-2011, 03:51 AM
Thats my true feelings I'm not just saying it for the heck of it to get to anybody... After looking closely at the standings and lists thats what I saw...I could be off here but I guess the up coming standings for the next events will tell..


There were 22 copies of Zenith in the top 16 of SCG DC, it was the fourth most played card behind Brainstorm, Goyf and Force of Will. What on earth are you rambling about?

AggroSteve
03-05-2011, 03:56 AM
problem here is that you made GSZ one of your key-spells (kind of) and gaddock, even just as a one of, can completely shut of part of you own deck which i do not see as being profitable... besides combo (depending on which combo-deck) either kills you before you can search up gaddock or has ways to remove him

about GSZ i actually think the same thing as jazzykat, that it was mainly thought to replace the banned survival of the fittest, since it serves allmost the same purpose with the only difference of the tempo-loss compared to SotF

actually my first thought was .... hmmm , maybe with this playing vengevine will be viable again

RexFTW
03-05-2011, 10:21 PM
Just took down a small local tourney with this list:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
4 Kataki, War's Wage


Won 2-0 against:
1 merefolk
1 infect combo (lol)
1 show tell combo
2 Big Zoo with GSZ

Lost 1-2 against Show Tell combo

final game record 13-2

The only thing I would change is probably the sideboard:
-4 Kataki, war's wage
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+1 Boujoka Bog
+2 Thrun

I don't understand all the hate for Gerrard's Verdicts, Deeds and Vindicates, they were SUPERB all day.
Also, the 1 maindeck deed is essential against any prison or long control strategy.

I think it would be possible to run GSZ instead of top to increase threat density. However i think top has good synergy with the discard plan and with confidant.

RexFTW
03-06-2011, 01:57 AM
Junk is a deck that is meant to have a decent match-up against all of the tier 1 decks in the first game, then take a significant advantage after sideboard. This is also a deck that requires skillful, interactive play to perform optimally.

First the list:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Flexible Slots discard or removal like Gerrard's Verdict, Green Sun's Zenith, Duress, Maelstrom Pulse, Go for the Throat, Snuff Out, Death Mark etc
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas (Show/Tell meta) or Stirring Wildwood (control meta) or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (aggresive meta)

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate or Nihil Spellbomb
0-3 Duress (combo meta) or Thrun the last troll (control meta) or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale(if not main) or Karakas (if not main)


There are 2 stages of the game when playing Junk:
Stage 1: Punish marginal hands
Thoughtseize can cripple hands that rely on specific cards. Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, and Vindicate can Crush light mana hands or decks with a Greedy 3 color manabase. If you can do adequate damage with either of these strategies a single creature should be able to wrap the game up quickly.

Stage 2: Top deck war
If you were unable to win in stage 1, you will often end up in situations where you have discarded their entire hand and stabilized with a Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary. At this point the game becomes a contest of who can draw the key cards to finish the game off. This is why the deck packs Knight of the Reliquary, Dark Confidant and Sensei's Divining Top. All of these cards have huge value in a drawn out game. If your opponent is packing a lot of removal the best play is often to Clear their hand with discard before playing new threats at this stage. Watch for opportunities to destroy all of their land.

Matchups:
Zoo:
Zoo's major Weakness in stage 1 is their manabase. Their deck is very redundant so it is not likely that you can cripple them with discard. Turn 1 Thoughtseize targets should normally be Wild Nacatal or Path to Exile.
Your goal in this matchup is to clog them up with creatures and take as little damage early as possible. If you can aVoid taking much damage from their creatures it is unlikely they will be able to kill you with burn alone. Try to cast your Hymn to Tourach and Gerrard's Verdicts while they still have 3 or more cards in hand or when they have tapped out. Save Dark Confidant until after their hand is empty.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Merefolk
This is probably your best matchup. In stage 1 you should be aiming to disable their Island s and AEther Vial s. Most of the creatures in their deck cost 2 blue mana and they run 8 colorless lands. Exploit that if possible. Turn 1 Thoughtseize on AEther Vial or MerrOw Rejery is often ideal.
Your goal is to make the game into an Attrition war. Your creatures are larger and your removal is better. You also have stronger topdeck abilities. Do not worry about taking early damage, unload all of your discard as quickly as possible and move to stage 2 if you can not land screw them early. Try to play around Wasteland if you are fortunate enough to get Mox Diamond by fetching basics.
After sideboarding Pernicious Deed makes the game near unwinnable.
Be prepared for Perish game 2 and 3 if they play fetchlands.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Goblins
This is the most volatile matchup. Whoever goes first is highly favored in game 1.
Your goal in game 1 is to keep them from getting enough mana to play ringleader and stabilizing with your creatures. You want to play Hymn to Tourach as early as you can hoping to hit lands. If they are playing a black splash (you can tell because they will have fetchlands) then be ready for Warren Weirding s.

Engineered Plague becomes your win condition in game 2. Be prepared for Perish if they play fetchlands.

Sideboarding if playing second:
-2 Flex slot
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboarding if playing first:
-2 Flex slot
-4 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Show and Tell or Doomsday
Stage 1 is very important as this matchup never goes to stage 2. If they combo and you have no answer you lose. If you have the answer, you win. Simple. Hands with Knight of the Reliquary, Karakas, Maze of Ith and heavy discard are obviously quite good here. Swords to Plowshares can help against Woodfall Primus and Blightsteel Colossus.
Sideboarding:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-4 Vindicate
+3 Diabolic Edict
+3 Duress
if Doomsday also plays storm combo with Ill Gotten Gains, also sideboard:
-2 Sensie's Divining Top
-1 Dark Confidant
+3 Extirpate or Nihil Spellbomb

Storm:
Similar to Show and Tell combo, except you must rely on just your discard to save you. You are looking for hands with Mox Diamond and heavy discard follOwed up with a fast knight or goyf.
Game 2 and 3 Pernicious Deed can destroy their mos diamond s, lions eye diamond s or Goblin tokens from Empty the Warrens.
Sideboard:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed

Affinity
Game 1 hope to pack a lot of removal. This is very unfavorable. If you are lucky they will play a ton of free crappy spells on their first turn, then you can hymn their good spells. Game 2 and 3 are highly favorable because Pernicious Deed destroys all their creatures and lands (lol). If you can reach stage 2 you have a huge advantage, as their deck is mostly acceleration and has very little gas.

Sideboard:
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Flex
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Bant
The game can often be won in stage 1 by breaking their Greedy 3 color manabase. Make sure you time discard well to eliminate Natural Order or keep them to less than 4 mana if the game goes long. Try to hold threats until you have Cleared their hand with discard. Natural Order is your biggest nemesis in stage 2.
Be weary of Sower of Temptation and Mind Harness after board.

Sideboard:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Thrun the last troll
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Counterbalance, Landstill or Dreadstill
Turn 1 Thoughtseize is ideal as stripping their combo is vital to winning. These decks run Greedy 3 color manabases so winning early in Stage 1 is often easy. They will also be at a card disadvantage in the early stages of the game. Take advantage of this windOw.

Game 2 and 3 get much easier with the addition of Thrun the last troll. HOwever, be ready for sweepers, depending on their color (Perish, Firespout) or steal effects(Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation).

Sideboard:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Thrun the last troll

AggroSteve
03-06-2011, 04:16 AM
i would never cut top for GSZ, never ever in my entire life!^^..... beside i think GSZ is to make a more creature-toolbox approach, and not for solely increasind thread density

@ gerrards verdict: i am switching back an forth between my current list with quasali pridemage in the 2 flex slots and the list with verdict. i think verdict is the best in combo-enviroment where you will need addictional discard, otherwise its decent against aggro and control. against control and combo though i would allways prefer targeted discard
but the strength of verdict is actually because of mox diamond, it increases percentage of following play:

1st turn: land, mox, hymn
2nd turn: land hymn/verdict + whatever

this play is brutal, and it cripples allmost every opponent

but i will stick for now with the pridemages in this slot, thread-density probem solved, added some utility which is allways fine, and he beats for 3, and ends goyfstalls

SteakKnife
03-06-2011, 06:53 AM
Why post this as well as in "The Rock" thread? Why does this need a new thread?

warallthetimne
03-06-2011, 08:57 AM
Because this isnt a "rock" deck, im glad someone has finally started a junk thread with its current incarnation.

makochman
03-06-2011, 09:07 AM
This is essentially the same list as in the Rock primer. You'd do well to repost your match up analysis in the Rock thread, that way it will be read more and contribute to the discussion.

"Junk is a deck that is meant to have a decent match-up against all of the tier 1 decks in the first game, then take a significant advantage after sideboard. This is also a deck that requires skilful, interactive play to perform optimally."

The same is true of very many decks in Legacy...

@ warallthetimne
Actually, this list epitomises the deck that is known as The Rock. Some people also refer to it as Junk or Dark Horizons. It's the same deck. There's currently no other deck that's gets called The Rock.

Sims
03-06-2011, 09:19 AM
Merefolk
This is probably your best matchup. In stage 1 you should be aiming to disable their Island s and AEther Vial s. Most of the creatures in their deck cost 2 blue mana and they run 8 colorless lands. Exploit that if possible. Turn 1 Thoughtseize on AEther Vial or MerrOw Rejery is often ideal.
Your goal is to make the game into an Attrition war. Your creatures are larger and your removal is better. You also have stronger topdeck abilities. Do not worry about taking early damage, unload all of your discard as quickly as possible and move to stage 2 if you can not land screw them early. Try to play around Wasteland if you are fortunate enough to get Mox Diamond by fetching basics.
After sideboarding Pernicious Deed makes the game near unwinnable.
Be prepared for Perish game 2 and 3 if they play fetchlands.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


This is just a nitpick from my perspective as the Merfolk player, but this matchup i don't believe is as heavily favored as you depict it. I will grant that most of my evidence is personal anecdotal experience as I've only dropped the match once as the Merfolk pilot off a poor mulligan decision. But here's my counterpoints:

12 Creatures with single U in the cost vs. usually 10 or 11 with Double U.. It's close to an even split, but most of our creatures don't have UU cost.

We do have a good amount of countermagic for your spells pre and post board. Your early disruption meeting Dazes or Spell Pierces turns what should be 2 for 1's in your favor to 1 for 1's, or maybe 1 for 1 and setting me back a land drop. In some cases, especially if I stick Vial, the land drop doesn't matter as badly.

Mono blue versions have been moving slowly away from the old 20 land, 12 island 8 colorless land, setup... Myself run 14 Islands, 4 Wastes, and 3 mutas... I've been contemplating dropping another muta for an Island as I can bring Back to Basics out of the board easier. So disrupting Islands can be harder than you'd think

Submerge in response to knight/fetch can be decimating to you while fighting to resolve threats through our counterwall. Echoing Truth (some have begun main-decking it) also hurts when it returns 2 goyf walls or Knights for an alpha strike.

Kira making you jump through hoops to answer our creatures ties up a lot of your mana.


Perhaps I've just been lucky in my other matches and that my last Junk match was what the deck is supposed to do all the time, I've just never been personally impressed by Junk as a Merfolk pilot. Sorry to derail and nitpick your primer, just seems to me to be a lot less favorable than you depict.

makochman
03-06-2011, 10:03 AM
This is just a nitpick from my perspective as the Merfolk player, but this matchup i don't believe is as heavily favored as you depict it.


As a Rock player, I believe you are correct. Preboard the matchup is probably slightly unfavourable for The Rock, and postboard Relic of Progenitus, Jitte and Submerge all really hurt too. And don't think trying to manascrew a Merfolk player is a good idea.

ZeinVoncy
03-06-2011, 10:24 AM
As a Junk player, I agree that Junk is a subtype of The Rock and this list with its information should be put in the The Rock primer. If you disagree, then read the The Rock primer then explain why this should become a subtype primer.

deezy
03-06-2011, 11:00 AM
There were 22 copies of Zenith in the top 16 of SCG DC, it was the fourth most played card behind Brainstorm, Goyf and Force of Will. What on earth are you rambling about?

Actually its behind more than that also cause there was more wastelands than GSZ also.But besides that I expect the number of decks using it to decline some and suspect the influx of GSZ was due to it being new and people are trying to utilize it...Its good but only in aggo decks and its value is limited in those....

RexFTW
03-06-2011, 11:15 AM
Why should Junk be a different thread? I believe that rock is a metagame deck, it is constantly changing to provide answers to the expected meta. This makes it an entirely different beast and is not the case with Junk. From the rock thread:


Rock typically goes one of a few ways: either heavy control, disruption based aggro, or mid-range beats with a good amount of answers.

You dont call Threshold and CB/Top the same deck eventhough they run 40 of the same cards and are the same colors do you?

warallthetimne
03-06-2011, 11:25 AM
historically rock was black/green and i think the addition of white to the deck evolves the deck from the decks of old. its like saying my tabby cat that lounges on the couch all day is the same as a lion tearing the throat out of a gazelle on the savannas of africa. same animal different beast, the deck has evolved past what rock was back in the day so i do believe it should be seperate from the rock thread.

Nidd
03-06-2011, 11:58 AM
Why should Junk be a different thread? I believe that rock is a metagame deck, it is constantly changing to provide answers to the expected meta. This makes it an entirely different beast and is not the case with Junk. From the rock thread:

You dont call Threshold and CB/Top the same deck eventhough they run 40 of the same cards and are the same colors do you?
Thresh plays the Tempo game while CB Top plays the control role nearly all the time. Both this deck and the decks discussed in the Rock thread are disruptive decks which pack universal answers and aim to end the game with giant beaters. Not sure what you want to say there.

This deck sports Vindicate, which basically is The Rock in it's essence: A card that answers nearly everything. It even contains mana acceleration, which is a historic trait of The Rock, as far as I know.

To me, a deck that packs the best removal, best disruption and best beatsticks GBW offer is The Rock and that's the case with a lissts I've seen labeled "Junk" so far.

historically rock was black/green and i think the addition of white to the deck evolves the deck from the decks of old. its like saying my tabby cat that lounges on the couch all day is the same as a lion tearing the throat out of a gazelle on the savannas of africa. same animal different beast, the deck has evolved past what rock was back in the day so i do believe it should be seperate from the rock thread.
If you observed the Rock primer carefully, you might have noticed a lot lists there look a lot like yours and that's not because they are suddenly discussing a different deck in the Rock thread - they talk about The Rock, a disruptive deck that packs answers to pretty much everything and typically ends the game with a giant creature.
The addition of White didn't change the deck in any way, it just improved the deck without altering it's gameplan, adding StP and Vindicate alongside with KotR doesn't change much about how the deck works.
It still disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory.

RexFTW
03-06-2011, 12:49 PM
The Rock, a disruptive deck that packs answers to pretty much everything and typically ends the game with a giant creature.
It still disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory.

So bant.dec is also a rock deck? It plays Knight of the Reliquary, swords to plowshares and universal answers (force of will). Bant.dec "disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory." Lets move their thread into the rock thread also. Or should we move junk into the bant thread? Now im confused.....

Clearly this deck is different from rock and bant.

sdematt
03-06-2011, 12:51 PM
We have a thread for this. It's called the Rock Thread.

-Matt

brianw712
03-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Yea, this is clearly The Rock. Take a look at the Rock primer--the decklist listed is the same as yours. Of course the Rock thread discusses other kinds of Rock as well (like you said, there are aggro versions, midrange versions, and more controllish versions), but this is definitely a subset of the Rock. If you ask any legacy-savvy player today what "The Rock" means to them, the first decklist they'll show you is Nelson's.

Nidd
03-06-2011, 01:18 PM
So bant.dec is also a rock deck? It plays Knight of the Reliquary, swords to plowshares and universal answers (force of will). Bant.dec "disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory." Lets move their thread into the rock thread also. Or should we move junk into the bant thread? Now im confused.....

Clearly this deck is different from rock and bant.
Way to take my post out of context, huh?
I stated that The Rock typically is the best of GBW thrown together to form a disruptive deck that wins via big creatures.
Bant is GUW.

And how is this deck different from The Rock? Just stating this over and over doesn't make that statement true.

sdematt
03-06-2011, 03:16 PM
They are one and the same. Junk is specific Rock build, basically. Not sure who the hell named it Junk, though. Curse you SCG!

-Matt

Sims
03-06-2011, 03:19 PM
They are one and the same. Junk is specific Rock build, basically. Not sure who the hell named it Junk, though. Curse you SCG!

-Matt

Probably conjured the resemblance to old school PTJunk, so that's what they ran with.

Richard Cheese
03-06-2011, 03:28 PM
*same colors
*same game plan
*identical decklists

Junk = Rock

Tao
03-06-2011, 03:41 PM
1. Matt's primer is much better than this and older, too. He should have the opening post.

2. I agree that it would be a MAJOR improvement to call this list "Junk" and not "Rock". Rock was traditionally not about heavy Mana denial like this. The list also seemns quite fixed and done. The list needs not much discussion about general strategies and more about single choices.
On the other hand the list occupied the Rock thread without actually being Rock. A while ago Tempo Thresh was discussed in the normal Threshold thread. One half discussed the Stifle version and the other half discussed the more controllish white version. It was just awkward. Things got much better when the red version got its own thread.

So my suggestion would be that sdematt gets the opening for a "Junk" thread. This would also stop people like me from wanting to discuss cards like Green Sun's Zenith in the Rock thread when one half of the people there plays this list anyway.

sdematt
03-06-2011, 07:31 PM
I was feeling pretty crappy today until I got this wonderful ego boost from Tao. Thanks man :)

-Matt

FieryBalrog
03-06-2011, 09:33 PM
Strong showing from GWB decks at SCG Edison, looks like 3 Rock-ish variants in the top 8.

Great to see this deck keep chugging along, underrated by most.

FieryBalrog
03-06-2011, 09:33 PM
Strong showing from GWB decks at SCG Edison, looks like 3 Rock-ish variants in the top 8.

Great to see this deck keep chugging along, underrated by most.

sdematt
03-07-2011, 01:28 AM
We just put 4 Rock in the Top 16, and 3 in the Top 8. DTB please?

Plus, both Zenith builds and non-Zenith got there. Aren't we freakin' amazing?

Also, Team America made a splash. Well done.

-Matt

2Rach
03-07-2011, 01:48 AM
Yeah, just saw that. It's awesome.

I just came from a 23 man tournament, went 3-1-1, and got top 8, same list as the 59 man with another slightly different sideboard. Made a mistake on g3 of quarter finals to miss out on possibly removing a Progenitus. I played out Confidant instead of Knight with a Top on the field. I was going to do it, forgot, then remembered right after I put it down. I would have been able to see 7-8 cards instead of 2 with Confidant. Didn't get my out, then died. Oh well, he ended up taking first though, got the Sea and Taiga.

mishima_kazuya
03-07-2011, 02:10 AM
Top 8 with Zenith Junk.
I think both no GSZ Junk and GSZ Junk are viable.

If you choose the GSZ plan you have the advantage against counterbalance, you can out creature other midrange decks, and you just become more aggressive. But you lose some discard space which is pretty important against combo decks as I got ROLLED over by Alex's High tide.

Obvs, the no GSZ plan puts you in the control role against other mid-range decks and improves your combo match up as you have more space for discard. But the lack of inevitability against counterbalance puts you in a bad spot.

Pick your poison.

deezy
03-07-2011, 02:11 AM
3 non zenith builds 1 zenith build... I think that all you that claim non zenith builds cant compete are finally gonna see thats not true...Considering one of the players of rock took zenith out of his build from last tourney to now...So I think that speaks for it self..... Eli cassis placed 4th with his zenith build in washington and second(should have won)with his non zenith build last night.

Im not a told you so kinda guy usually but I said there would be a decline in zenith decks from washington and I was right... I believe there were 2 in top 16....

Also I believe the debate of the no moxen builds should be over....Mox rules and all the top rock builds run it even the zeniths lists from washington.....

If you watch the finals the tide player had to top deck a timespiral to win on his last legs in game3...so junk can definately win tourneys....

Everyone who thinks hand dissruption is not the way to go....Hymm was a powerhouse throughout the tourney...so if you are looking to blaze a new trail make sure it includes hymm....

DTB.......HELL YEAH!!!

On another note I Stuck a Zenith and a few silver bullet creatures in my board it opened up some slots in my board and allows me to switch to a diff.. package post board I think its gonna be good with my tutor package for control and my zenith package for alittle more aggro approach...

Erdvermampfa
03-07-2011, 03:14 AM
So, Matt, I've seen the manabase of your list and got to notice that you run a basic forest, but I wonder if this one doesnt deny Turn 1 Hymns or Verdicts too often. I know it's fairly nice to get out a basic land of each color, but I think the deck can't cope with too many offcolor lands since the main color is black...

ivanpei
03-07-2011, 03:44 AM
I'm not going to feed the troll. Continuing, i really like the list with the 2 elspeths. @ kazuya, huge grats! Way to carry the torch. Btw is hatfields list very durable? How quick was it? T3 kill consistently? I'm very curious.

deezy
03-07-2011, 09:41 AM
Thats cool I wouldnt comment either....Its clear from your signature that you are alittle full of your self and somehow belive that your game is based on what you have....Well guess what, Ive got all that shit to...So does that put me in the cool club...lol...and if you need proof I'll post picks of every deck Ive got laid out with a picture of my ass next to them....lol..
Hell I bought 8 tarmagoyfs and 8 wastelands just so I dont have to move them back and forth...

All that aside... If me being completely objective and speaking the tuth about what I saw in the potential of a card and the critique of your list makes me a troll then fine...Its clear you are one of those guys who thinks his angle is supirior and will take it to the grave not matter what..
But the fact is that anyone who reads the last few pages can tell who has the " self serving delusions"...

You havent been objective or on point for that matter on any of the last topics...

1..Mox or no mox...You said its horrible late was a card dissadvantage and cause of that its not worth running...I said its a staple and its power is crucial...every list that placed I beleive has run it even the GSZ lists atleast at the last 2 events....

2..I was critical of your land base and pointed out that you should run some basics or could be shut out by crucible wastelocks and were weak to wasteland period and other denial stratagies and you said that only fringe decks play wastelock and that its worth running the risk....lol... If you look at the amount of wastelands and the presence of crucible and mana denial at the last 2 tourneys you are clearly outta touch here too...

3..I was honest in my assement of GSZ and said it was good and would find a home in somthing but didnt think it was for rock...You went on about how non GSZ decks cant compete in a mirrior and said its the greatest thing since sliced bread..and said I was selfserving and delusional because I predicted a decline in GSZ builds moving into this next tourney and said I felt it under performed...

And low and behold Eli cassis the 4th place rock player from washington cuts it from his list and goes to the final...So apparently he felt the same...And there were only 2 GSZ build this weekend...

I said GSZ belonged in somethin like bant and alex hatfeild played it in NO bant....And aside from the 1 junk build that still used it this week bant is the only other deck that still used it...So if you wanna say its good enough for the pros its good enough for me then you might wanna take a look at what theyre actually doing......

Please remind me MR.I HAVE EVERY CARD ON THE PLANET of one single thing that you have been on point about...

sdematt
03-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Seriously, calm the heck down.

Back to Magic.

Mishima, were you THE Zenith player at SCG? If so, congrats! Would you mind running a tournament report?

For the basic forest, I've found much of the time you're usually fetching out Swamps and Scrublands, and sometimes against Wasteland based decks fetching a Bayou doesn't let you play out your hand as well as fetching the basic Forest for stability. Sometimes you need to have a green-source over 2-3 turns for sure, and if don't have any other lands, and say you've got Scrub, Scrub, Swamp out, fetching Bayou can hurt.

Most of the time, if I need to, I rawdog the turn 2 Hymn with a Bayou if I need it for a turn 3 Goyf/Anything. You win some, you lose some. But, I've found the forest to be so valuable, as it lets you cast Deed, Goyf, threats, etc. under a Blood Moon as well, and doesn't get hosed by Back to Basics.

All in all, congrats to everyone that's been playing with this deck! We've done well! :)

Also, who actually won SCG open Edison? It has Hatfield and the Rock player both listed as second place. Did they just draw it out?

-Matt

ZeinVoncy
03-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Agreed w/ calming down or get out. No one cares who was right for w/e reason, we're here to discuss Rock. If you don't like GSZ, then make no comments on it if you cannot be respectful. So stop being a troll, it's not something we look forward to reading about.
Great performance on the deck, eating up the Metagame is where we shine! LoL, I'm sure then next event will hold entirely different results from this one, like the last event. So much changing going on, and that's why Rock is good!
I believe Junk Rock took second, Spiral Tide took first.

@ Basic lands

I play 1 basic of each color so I can't get shutout from non-basic hate. It's proven to be helpful and I'm not lacking where I should be.

@ T16 Junk Rock

I like each of them are essentially the same and yet look so different. That just goes to show how conventional Junk Rock can be. Would we consider them all Junk Rock, or variants of Junk Rock?

Aznopium
03-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Seriously, calm the heck down.

Also, who actually won SCG open Edison? It has Hatfield and the Rock player both listed as second place. Did they just draw it out?

-Matt

on SCG, they had it as Alix's deck and he did win. Not sure why it is listed as such.
Pretty solid performance from Rock this weekend at SCG, good variations from the folks in the Top8.

ivanpei
03-07-2011, 10:32 AM
Agreed, it's time to move on. :) I second the request for a tourney report! Would love to see it! There's a million variations and it's extremely exciting. @ 2nd place list. Just 2 Tarmogoyfs?! Are my eyes failing? I like the inclusion of Mother of runes, it's like some sort of hybrid between the rock and junk.

@ 6th place GSZ list. Terravore!! I'm glad to see my suggestion picked up in the Rock! How was it all day? Cheers, great list. Also how'd you like running Noble, GSZ and mox? That's something very interesting, super mana ramp for a guaranteed T1 accelerator.

deezy
03-07-2011, 10:39 AM
Sorry to all the other posters in the thead for posting the reply to someone else....From here on out I will be keeping my comments deck related...I got pulled away from constructive talk by getting aggrivated at peoples attitude...

On the Junk/rock topic they are one and the same to me...

I absolutely love this deck....The more I play it the more I love it...It embodies everything I like about the game...

Versatile,controling,assbeating....And multiple lines of play.....

GGoober
03-07-2011, 10:41 AM
Mox Diamond sucks.

BUT it is the only moxen playable for this deck in the format (Chrome Mox is significantly worse). Would you not play with Moxen in Vintage for decks that need the Mox mana boost? (I am mentioning decks needing Mox Mana boost because some decks don't need to play with the additional mana).

In Legacy, Mox Diamond is the only Mox that is powerful (Mox Opal is very very powerful but is limited to artifact-based decks). However, Mox Diamonds can only be played in higher land-count decks, and decks requiring a heavier 2cmc-curve. The rock fits into such a deck that would use Mox Diamond to be fully powered.

sdematt
03-07-2011, 10:42 AM
And now 11 people are reading the thread. Success!

-Matt

stasis
03-07-2011, 10:42 AM
I just came from a 23 man tournament, Oh well, he ended up taking first though, got the Sea and Taiga.


What is the entry fee on these turnaments?

deezy
03-07-2011, 10:48 AM
LOL....Wow I love mox...it just puts the deck over the top IMO...potential power of the deck goes through the roof with mox...

Dzra
03-07-2011, 01:45 PM
The two Tarmogoyfs was a little odd. It seems like a big reason why he didn't beat High Tide in the finals was because his clock was slow. Also, Runed Halo in the board is weird. I guess he was expecting a lot of combo (not just Storm, but Enchantress perhaps)?

What do people think of Thrun VS Merfolk? Too clunky? Sure gets around counters and Submerge.

2Rach
03-07-2011, 02:26 PM
What is the entry fee on these turnaments?
Just to be clear, he got the Sea and Taiga. lol Would be nice...

It depends on the store and the type of tournament. In this store it was $25, although I had $9 store credit. First got Sea+Taiga, second Sea, third FoW+Dreadnaught, fourth got Goyf, and store credit on down to 8th.

(See here) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20084-[Los-Angeles-CA]-Legacy-at-Melrose-Music-Comics!-Win-a-Moat-Underground-Seas!)

This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19878-[Tournament]-Sunday-2-27-11-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Inc-2x-each-dual-2x-Jace-TMS) 59 player tournament was $20. Different store. Other times the TO has $10 100% store credit tournaments.




The two Tarmogoyfs was a little odd
Could have just been a budget/availability issue.

FieryBalrog
03-07-2011, 03:54 PM
Also, who actually won SCG open Edison? It has Hatfield and the Rock player both listed as second place. Did they just draw it out?

-Matt


Sick finals, Eli lost. But despite having not much combo hate he drew well and really pummeled Alix in all 3 games. In games 2 and 3 Alix won when on the ropes, about to lose next turn. Game 3 in particular was totally dramatic, a real Gabe Nassif "here's my cruel ultimatum mana" moment. Eli doesn't cut Alix's shuffle off his ponder, and the card he flips is Time Spiral, one of like 3 outs in the deck I think. Amazing match. A bad matchup to be sure, but fun as hell to watch.

I think if he had Canonist in the board it might have been much different. Canonist + Mom is really punishing.

mishima_kazuya
03-07-2011, 04:07 PM
Tournament report by popular demand

// Lands
1 [IN] Plains (1)
1 [US] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (3)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [A] Savannah
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [OD] Terravore
1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

The SCG website made an error, as there is only 2 Deeds in the SB not 3.

I did not get much time to test, but I know I wanted to play Green Sun's Zenith and turn 1 Dark Confidants. Mark Tocco suggested Stoneforge Mystic instead of a second Jitte and a singleton SoFI as a tutor target on Saturday night. In exchange I also suggested that he add a single Trygon Predator when he got rid of his Spell Snares in his Counterbalance list.
30 minutes before registration closed we ended up cutting Maelstrom Pulse from the SB for more Deeds to beat up Affinity, Merfolk and random stuff. I also suggested to Tocco to not play counterbalance in a field full of Zenith green decks and instead suggested Tendrils to crush mono creature decks. Nice audible eh?

I will also be pointing out some flaws in play and deckbuiling on my part and in Legacy's part.

Round 1:
Beat mono red burn. He showed my his double Blood Moons in his hand that did not anything. Pretty sure not playing cards that kill them in your mono red burn deck is pretty bad, unless somehow the format becomes dominated by Dark Depths...not to mention I made sure to fetch up basics in case he had Price of Progress.

Round 2:
Beat Green Sun Zenith Zoo. I ran out a Terravore, used stoneforge to get a SoFI(Jitte was already in my hand), put the SOFI onto my Terravore and he triple blocked my Terravore to kill it. I won that obviously.

Round 3:
Me versus UR Sneak attack/Show And tell
Punted game 1 when I could have used Mox Diamond to GSZ for a Knight of the Reliquary to find a Karakas. For some reason I decided that I had to play my Dryad Arbor and was thinking I would have to wait until turn 4 to play my Knight. I passed the turn and IMMEDIATELY noticed that I could have pitched Dryad Arbor to Mox Diamond. I obviously topdecked the Karakas when he Show and Telled Emrakul.
Game 2 he Brainstromed and shuffled away some lands for more business. Then I Vindicated and Wastelanded his mana sources. Along with my runner runner Thoughtseizes and Duresses that probably didn't matter after the 1st or 2nd one. Lucky noob eh?

Round 4:
Dredge with Life from the Loam, Darkblast and Dakmor Salvage...
My opening 7 was Verdant Catabombs, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant and assorted 2 and 3 drops. I thought about it for a few minutes and kept. I don't remember who played first but I Zenithed for Dryad Arbor, played Dark Confidant and did not draw another mana source for a turn or two. He kept his 7 and led off with Putrid Imp and Careful Studied away a few lands.
I did not see a dredge card for a few turns and thought he was playing that UGB Vengevine Madness crazyness. My mana screw eventually got to me and I died to 2/2 and 1/1 beats from zombies and imps and illusions.
Game 2 he mulliganed into leyline of Sanctity. Fortunately his dredges were whiffing up lands and random anti-hate cards and his deck's general slowness allowed me to finally draw a Vindicate for his Leyline and exile his graveyard with Nihil Spellbomb. Game 3 he did not keep a Leyline and runner runnered Nihil Spellbombs for the win.
I asked Mark Tocco if he would have kept my hand game 1, not knowing what my opponents were playing, and he said he would have. Would you keep my opening 7 in the dark game 1?

Round 5:
UWgr Counterbalance
Wastelanded and Vindicated his mana game 1.
He assembled Counterbalance and Top on turn 2 and I was never really in it as he always had something on top of his deck to counter my spells or Swords for my guys.
Game 3 was really interesting...on turn 3 I had a Stoneforge Mystic on the table and 2 lands in play. My hand is Marsh Flats, Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, Elspeth, Sword of Fire and Ice. I played thoughtseize into his 2 untapped lands and saw that he had Sower of Temptation, Engineered Explosives, Firespout, Swords to Plowshares and Scalding Tarn. I took his Sower of Temptation with my reasoning being that he removal to prevent my guys from getting equipped. And I already needed to get lucky and rip a 4th land for Elspeth and trying to also rip a removal spell for Sower was putting more pressure on my draw steps. I won that after he Timewalked himself to set Explosives on 4 to kill my Elspeth.
After the match I had disagreeing opinions. Some people said Sower was irrelevant as SOFI gave my guys pro blue. And some people said taking Sower was correct. Opinions?

Round 6: Gerrad Fabiano with Team America
Game 1 was a long grinded out affair with 1 for 1s and him Hymn to Tourching me. Towards the end of the game his life was close to 10 and I was at 12 from playing multiple Thoughtseizes. He has no cards, double Tarmogoyf. My board is lands that don't tap for black, Noble Hiearch, a 9/9 KoTR that i just played and a Vindicate in my hand. I started thinking about tutoring up double Wastelands to lock out his green sources and his last 2 goyfs. He untapped draws a Sylvan Library and plays it. I draw a Scrubland and tank. If I take out his Tarmogoyf then I can just kill him with my Knight is that I thought initially. But then somewhere in my brain I started thinking about how him digging up 3 cards with Sylvan Library was bad news. I finally decided to take out his goyf, I threw down the Vindicate and my hand guided it to the Sylvan Library. I paused and thought about my punt, then decided to suck it up and accept it and pass turn. Also my Knight was lethal if I just Wastelanded my own lands something that I missed as I stopped paying attention to life totals.
He drew a removal spell for Knight and I died.
Game 2 was fairly uninteractive as I mulliganed into a mana light hand and got Wastelanded to my first match loss.

Round 7: Classic sligh zoo.
He mulliganed into a 2 lander. I wastelanded his Savannah and thoughtseized him and left him with: Kotr and Qasali Pridemage in hand. Tarmogoyf and a lone Mountain on the board.
I went 4 after he drew runner runner Bolt and Chain Lightning but I quickly put some lands into my graveyard and killed him with giant Terravore and KotR.
Game 2 I attacked his mana base and he died with a lone mountain again.
One of the first legacy decks I started performing well with was Sligh-esque Zoo. However I found that a lot of my losses were from mana light draws or dieing to Wastelands. After getting my ass whooped in 2010 with Zoo I quit and started playing Tendrils. I finally switched over to 24 land Wasteland Zoo after Survival was banned and found the deck MUCH more consistent despite being a bit slower. Something to think about...

Round 8: UGW New Horizons
I won game 1 when he really didn't draw much reactive spells but plenty of creatures for my removal.
I sided out 2 Swords for 2 Edicts thinking he was NO Bant. He obviously attacked my mana game 2 and my Edicts sat there looking stupid as I was stuck on white mana.
Game 3 I sided the swords back in, but that did not really matter as I returned the favor and locked him out of mana game 3.

Round 9: Ug Elf ball.
I kept a thoughtseize since Jesus was always playing elf decks in most Consctructed formats. Being the lucksacking fish that I am, I drew another Thougthseize to get rid of a Glimpse of Nature and Fauna Shaman. I did not play around Vengevine when I tried to jump from 2 to 4 mana with Noble Hierarch instead of playing a Tarmogoyf to block. It should have been fairly obvious he was playing vengevine as he had Fauna Shamans and tropical Islands, but I was getting pretty tired at the end of the day. Tarmogoyf beats got there.
Game 2 he mulliganed and after I thoughtseized him and I saw that he had a Krosan Grip. I ran out Engineered Plague to kill his two elves as I figured there was no point in playing around Grip and getting 3 cards with my 1 card was good. He made a game out of it when he Intuitioned for 3 Vengevines but lucky for us, he didn't draw a second creature to blow me out. I also misplayed my Jitte by not equipping it main phase 2...

And this lucky fish makes it to top 8 at 8-1.

I quickly got eliminated in the quarter finals by Alix's very nice High Tide list. Props to him.

Things I want to change...
Put Hymn to Tourachs back in. Alix was my first combo opponent that knew how to Magic correctly and my pin point light discard draws were easy to play around. I guess the match would have played out differently if I drew more than 1 Duress effect each game, but it is what it is...
I also want another pridemage or 2 in the 75 as knocking out random artifacts and enchantments is something I wanted to do the whole day.

I wish I could brainstorm another list but I gotta start testing for an Extended PTQ this Saturday.

makochman
03-07-2011, 04:45 PM
Tournament report by popular demand


Thank you! This was very interesting and informative.

(I think that Round 4 hand wasn't worth keeping.)

I noticed that you run a lot of accel, but no true mana sinks (GSZ really isn't one). Do you think something like a singleton Chameleon Collossus would fit in? Just brainstorming, really.

RexFTW
03-07-2011, 04:46 PM
Thanks for writing that up.


Along with my runner runner Thoughtseizes and Duresses that probably didn't matter after the 1st or 2nd one. Lucky noob eh? I put good cards in my deck so i can draw them. :)


After the match I had disagreeing opinions. Some people said Sower was irrelevant as SOFI gave my guys pro blue. And some people said taking Sower was correct. Opinions?
SOFI could be destroyed by EE making his sower relevant again. However, this would have left him with no answer to elspeth. I think either way you had the game. You also have 8 outs in your deck against sower (swords, vindicate) but no outs vs swords other than the discard you just used. This may sway the decision in favor of swords.


Would you keep my opening 7 in the dark game 1?
I would not have. A single wasteland would have crushed you. Remember dryad arbor can be wasted.


Things I want to change...
Put Hymn to Tourachs back in.
there are several times where you "luck" into more discard. I agree with this.


What do people think of Thrun VS Merfolk? Too clunky? Sure gets around counters and Submerge.
you can play around submerge with mox diamonds and never getting a bayou. they have no answer to diamond :)

Dzra
03-07-2011, 04:58 PM
Verdant Catabombs, Green Sun's Zenith, Dark Confidant and assorted 2 and 3 drops

I don't think I'd keep this against an unknown. One Wasteland could easily put you out of the game.

As for the Sower... I wasn't there, so I'm not totally sure, but from what it sounds like I probably wouldn't have worried about it. The Swords to Plowshares seems like the best choice to take. At the end of his turn, drop SoFI with Mystic, then equip and swing on your next turn. He can't drop Sower or you'll just kill it. With no Swords, he'll have to try to EE@2 your Mystic. Once he drops EE for 2, you're free to play Elspeth. Don't make a dude until you get another 2 mana open to equip it with the Sword although unless he draws another removal for your Elspeth, he's really in a bad spot.

RexFTW
03-07-2011, 05:56 PM
what do you guys think of Thrun, the Last Troll vs elspeth, knight-errant?

Thrun, the Last Troll is clearly better against force of will, but this can already be handled with discard. He is also stronger for stopping several small guys.

elspeth, knight-errant is better against Moat and Humility, which can also be handled with discard and vindicate.

WW seems easier to pay than GG however, especially if you only run 2 bayou.

Dzra
03-07-2011, 07:12 PM
I don't think it's an either/or sort of thing. I'd run 1-2 Elspeth MD if I wanted another versatile threat and I'd run 2 Thrun in the SB if I wanted an extremely resilient beater.

sdematt
03-07-2011, 08:53 PM
If you see more Thopters, Elspeth. If you see Stax, Elspeth. If you see MUC and more Counter-heavy decks, Thrunn isn't bad at all.

Very nice report! I enjoyed reading it. No Hymn made me really sad. How often did you get Mox starts?

-Matt