[Deck] The Rock

[tescrin]

Went 3-1 to earn a bye for our next quarterly here in Atlanta with basically the above list but I have gotten Grim Flayers yet. One round was a bye because I forgot to sign up, but so far I'm 6-1 with the deck. I played a couple Doomwake Giants to top my curve rather than NO. Lack of Decaymay have been bad, but I still have liked Edict a lot.

Git dem Grave Beats.
My brew with 4x Spell Queller and 4x Spellstutter Sprite just went 3-0-1 tonight! My last three outings being a total of 9-1-1!

We are truly in an age of Jank!

[Claymore]

What did you replace Grim Flayer with?

[Mr. Safety]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this, but it's the closest deck I can think of that would do this (and possibly has ALREADY tried to do this.) To qualify my inquiry, what's on my mind is the absence of counter/top (just like with everyone else) and the idea that Dark Confident and a low cmc curve could really do some damage in the metagame. Delver has already established itself as a tier-1 strategy (mostly grixis) which plays on the same axis: efficient cards with exceptionally high power levels. Death and Taxes is also still doing very well, which brings back an old card option: Mother of Runes. With the format (surprisingly) fair right now I wanted to move towards a list that can break through the delver decks but still be low-to-the-ground with Dark Confidant. I kind-of think (opinion) that Nic-Fit is a better place to go bigger to power through the tempo decks. I don't think this list belongs in the Deadguy thread (no SFM/equips.)

This is what I'm testing:

Creatures - 20
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Disruption/Removal - 17
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Sinkhole
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate

Card Selection/Advantage -2
2x Sylvan Library

Lands - 21
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas

Sideboard (rough)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Choke


There aren't any new cards in here, so I know that some mix of this has already been tried. Other cards on my mind are Knight of the Reliquary, Hymn to Tourach, Gideon of the Trials, Blessed Alliance (sideboard), Back to Nature (sideboard), Liliana of the Veil (not sure if it can be supported maindeck, sideboard maybe), Fatal Push (I still feel its inferior to StP in decks that have access to white, maybe I'm wrong.) I just want to disrupt their resources and then force a big Goyf through via MoM. MoM also protects Sculler, making it true card advantage, and Dark Confidant so I can get ahead on cards while setting opponent's back.

TL;DR - Looking for feedback on the list above.

[hovercraft]

I think if you can cast Sinkhole, you can cast Liliana of the Veil.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed, I know the mana works. I just don't know if Liliana is correct in the list at all; is she too good to *not* play, do I drop sinkhole (the only flex spots) to work her in, is she a sideboard card?

[MrFrowny_]

Agreed, I know the mana works. I just don't know if Liliana is correct in the list at all; is she too good to *not* play, do I drop sinkhole (the only flex spots) to work her in, is she a sideboard card?

Any deck that could possibly run Liliana should run her. I have a soft spot for sinkhole but it's not always a card you want to see all the time. It's a bad topdeck in the late game and against some decks, it does nothing.

Anyways, I think you should make room for at least 3 Liliana's in your list.

[tescrin]

Any deck that could possibly run Liliana should run her

She's good, but this is an exaggeration by a lot. Blue decks with a lot of counters or instant-speed reactions (Snapcaster) and BSK decks can have issues ticking her up. She's also a 3-mana removal spell for your opp's worst creature a non-trivial amount of the time. With Grixis as a big part of the metagame she can end up not killing anything of note. Her uptick is also pretty bad against Flash creatures in general and even in Junk I occasionally felt the tension of "do I tick up or do I keep my Plow/Decay" in which case normally you leave her for a turn so you can keep the board locked down since you'll probably draw something you don't want anyway.

I was addicted to using liliana until she spiked; While I miss my copies sometimes she was a good habit to break since she's often not enough against combo (a funeral charm before they kill you) and not always that good against fair decks (a sorcery edict before she dies to damage.)

Lily does manage to be pretty cold to some decks still as well, Lands (which is a reasonable meta chunk), Storm (I used to think she was good, but her slowness and their grave-reliance makes her mediocre), Topless Miracles (putting yourself in topdeck mode isn't great, and their wincons bypass her), Dredge, D&T (you may kill yourself if they run the double-lord, can be turned into CDA with Revoker, etc.)

I have seen her lock out many opponents and she's certainly still "2nd best walker" or so, but I do think her heyday ended quite some time back. I *did* use her in every black deck for 3-4 years, but I think you can honestly make your mana better, cut a land, and just run Brutality instead. Better against combo a lot of the time, good tempo potentially, fixes broken hands alright, kills most legacy problems. I've just seen her die too many times to Clique, Snap, etc, and grind hands down to no avail many times.

[Mr. Safety]

Any deck that could possibly run Liliana should run her. I have a soft spot for sinkhole but it's not always a card you want to see all the time. It's a bad topdeck in the late game and against some decks, it does nothing.

Anyways, I think you should make room for at least 3 Liliana's in your list.

I get where you are coming from, for sure. Sinkhole is sometimes dead, agreed. My thinking was that I am trying to parallel Death and Taxes but have a faster clock and a different axis of disruption (discard, uncounterable removal with Decay.) Sinkhole = Rishadan Port (I know Port is a land technically, but D&T also has to use Vial so the deck slots are the same and Port is more of a 'spell' than a land.) That's my thinking anyways, could be just bad in practice.

I have some experience playing Junk/Rock in the past and Liliana was always an auto-include. With Dark Confidant drawing extra cards I can see her being very good in combination (and I'm even playing MoM to protect the Bobs.) With Sinkhole/Tarmogoyf I'm definitely slanting towards tempo; with Liliana I would be going more towards mid-range. I think other lists in this thread do a MUCH better job at playing a mid-range deck (SFM, Liliana, Grim Flayer, some people are even using Siege Rhino IIRC.) That's the tension, but again, in practice it might be correct to play her simply because she's better than anything else that could go in there. Thanks for the food-for-thought!

[Mr. Safety]

She's good, but this is an exaggeration by a lot. Blue decks with a lot of counters or instant-speed reactions (Snapcaster) and BSK decks can have issues ticking her up. She's also a 3-mana removal spell for your opp's worst creature a non-trivial amount of the time. With Grixis as a big part of the metagame she can end up not killing anything of note. Her uptick is also pretty bad against Flash creatures in general and even in Junk I occasionally felt the tension of "do I tick up or do I keep my Plow/Decay" in which case normally you leave her for a turn so you can keep the board locked down since you'll probably draw something you don't want anyway.

I was addicted to using liliana until she spiked; While I miss my copies sometimes she was a good habit to break since she's often not enough against combo (a funeral charm before they kill you) and not always that good against fair decks (a sorcery edict before she dies to damage.)

Lily does manage to be pretty cold to some decks still as well, Lands (which is a reasonable meta chunk), Storm (I used to think she was good, but her slowness and their grave-reliance makes her mediocre), Topless Miracles (putting yourself in topdeck mode isn't great, and their wincons bypass her), Dredge, D&T (you may kill yourself if they run the double-lord, can be turned into CDA with Revoker, etc.)

I have seen her lock out many opponents and she's certainly still "2nd best walker" or so, but I do think her heyday ended quite some time back. I *did* use her in every black deck for 3-4 years, but I think you can honestly make your mana better, cut a land, and just run Brutality instead. Better against combo a lot of the time, good tempo potentially, fixes broken hands alright, kills most legacy problems. I've just seen her die too many times to Clique, Snap, etc, and grind hands down to no avail many times.

How do you feel about 2-3 Liliana in the sideboard for grindy matchups? Her abilities naturally push towards a longer game.

[tescrin]

How do you feel about 2-3 Liliana in the sideboard for grindy matchups? Her abilities naturally push towards a longer game.

I could see you going either way on the Sinkholes or the Lilianas. lily in the main is *probably* better just because she can open the door for your Goyf, but I think Brutality can often do the same for less mana and less B's, and can be a tempo play while still dropping cards from Bob.

My main thing is he said "she should be run in any deck that has B in it" basically, and I feel my choice to sell her was good, via how she'd play against the decks I'm running, both in the deck or across the board from me. Brutality gets the dude you want, and Lily often gets a dude; expecting to grind your way out of problems Her play against Leovold decks is also bad.

IMO, run Brutality.

[Mr. Safety]

I could see you going either way on the Sinkholes or the Lilianas. lily in the main is *probably* better just because she can open the door for your Goyf, but I think Brutality can often do the same for less mana and less B's, and can be a tempo play while still dropping cards from Bob.

My main thing is he said "she should be run in any deck that has B in it" basically, and I feel my choice to sell her was good, via how she'd play against the decks I'm running, both in the deck or across the board from me. Brutality gets the dude you want, and Lily often gets a dude; expecting to grind your way out of problems Her play against Leovold decks is also bad.

IMO, run Brutality.

Good thoughts, much appreciated.

The real question is which one gives me the most power in the metagame (and I like your reasoning for Brutality, its very solid.) Sinkhole is much more situational than either Brutality or Liliana (which will both do SOMETHING relevant, regardless of game state.) Sinkhole is really only good early to strain mana (basically a time walk) and to create a window. It could also literally do nothing productive other than hit an opponent's 6th land on turn 9.

Then again most legacy decks can play around Wasteland, but its hard to struggle through both wasteland and sinkhole. Dark Depths is rising in popularity, which makes Sinkhole at least a smidge better than otherwise. I guess I just want to live the dream and resolve a t1 Deathrite into a turn 2 Sinkhole + Wasteland lol. I may be blinded by wanting synergy when this style of deck really wants to rely on utility/card power level.

[tescrin]

Vindicate is also a thing; hard to say. Sinkhole is definitely pretty funny against Enchantress and whatnot haha (which I've found a lot more of on MTGO as I explore that meta.)

That all said, Delvers with Sinkhole in them do well on occasion; and it can definitely be pretty funny to Sinkhole a swamp against ANT who think they're immune :P. I would just sit with a list in front of you and see what it's good against and what it's bad against.

Bad:
* Everything that runs Daze
* D&T?
* opposing DRS decks?

Good:
* S&T decks
* Reanimator?
* Enchantress
* Aluren/Food Chain? (they fetch basics for a reason I imagine)
* ANT?
* Decks that potentially tell you they have a weak hand/deck to LD by fetching a basic first

then judge that list as it's fleshed out against your meta game and how your deck pairs against things.


EDIT: Thinking on it for another 5 seconds, I am curious why you wouldn't run a Sinkhole BUG Delver in this case rather than straight GB. You're looking for a tempo plan, want to run Sinkhole and Goyf; so you might consider that.

[lavafrogg]

Omg, activity in the Rock thread!

I can't contribute to the current discussion as I am still brewing GB Rock with Depths but I wish everyone the best of luck!

[hovercraft]

I think in non-blue fair Bx decks Liliana should be at least a 2 of. I play more Jund than Rock, but I always have 3 or 4 Liliana in my lists. If you have an upticking Liliana on the field and start Wastelanding your opponent, you generally win the game.

[Mr. Safety]

Vindicate is also a thing; hard to say. Sinkhole is definitely pretty funny against Enchantress and whatnot haha (which I've found a lot more of on MTGO as I explore that meta.)

That all said, Delvers with Sinkhole in them do well on occasion; and it can definitely be pretty funny to Sinkhole a swamp against ANT who think they're immune :P. I would just sit with a list in front of you and see what it's good against and what it's bad against.

Bad:
* Everything that runs Daze
* D&T?
* opposing DRS decks?

Good:
* S&T decks
* Reanimator?
* Enchantress
* Aluren/Food Chain? (they fetch basics for a reason I imagine)
* ANT?
* Decks that potentially tell you they have a weak hand/deck to LD by fetching a basic first

then judge that list as it's fleshed out against your meta game and how your deck pairs against things.


EDIT: Thinking on it for another 5 seconds, I am curious why you wouldn't run a Sinkhole BUG Delver in this case rather than straight GB. You're looking for a tempo plan, want to run Sinkhole and Goyf; so you might consider that.

Nice rundown, and I really appreciate the practical approach (good/bad matchups rather than magical Christmas land.) EDIT: I am using 1x Vindicate.

Simple answer: card availability! I have the gwb mana-base/cards. I do not have blue duals/forces. I *could* try the deck with shocklands and not forces, but that just seems horrible to me lol.

My plan is to use Mom to protect threats, similar to bug delver with daze/fow. From there I play threats that are really powerful/fast (Sculler/DRS/Bob/Goyf.) Discard + Mom + Mana disruption + beats. The discard deals with things I can't kill, the mana disruption keeps them off bigger spells, and I can reasonably close the game quickly with Goofys. Alternatively I will draw extra cards from Bob, more removal, more wastelands, more sinkholes, and grind out that way.

@lavafrogg: I have tried GB Rock w/depths but I only have one Depths. The deck seems cool, but only one copy in my situation seems bad, bad enough to table the possibility until I have more copies.

[Mr. Safety]

I think in non-blue fair Bx decks Liliana should be at least a 2 of. I play more Jund than Rock, but I always have 3 or 4 Liliana in my lists. If you have an upticking Liliana on the field and start Wastelanding your opponent, you generally win the game.

I think I will try to play 2-3 in my sideboard for now, boarding them in against decks where Sinkhole is bad.

[lavafrogg]

Nice rundown, and I really appreciate the practical approach (good/bad matchups rather than magical Christmas land.) EDIT: I am using 1x Vindicate.

Simple answer: card availability! I have the gwb mana-base/cards. I do not have blue duals/forces. I *could* try the deck with shocklands and not forces, but that just seems horrible to me lol.

My plan is to use Mom to protect threats, similar to bug delver with daze/fow. From there I play threats that are really powerful/fast (Sculler/DRS/Bob/Goyf.) Discard + Mom + Mana disruption + beats. The discard deals with things I can't kill, the mana disruption keeps them off bigger spells, and I can reasonably close the game quickly with Goofys. Alternatively I will draw extra cards from Bob, more removal, more wastelands, more sinkholes, and grind out that way.

@lavafrogg: I have tried GB Rock w/depths but I only have one Depths. The deck seems cool, but only one copy in my situation seems bad, bad enough to table the possibility until I have more copies.

Lands(25)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures(12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker

Engine(7)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library

Spells(16)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Entomb

Sideboard(15)
1 Boseiju2, Who Shelters All
2 Tsunami
3 Lost Legacy
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
2 Krosan Grip

This is what I am currently trying, I go back and forth between an entomb package and a crop rotation package...

[tescrin]

This is what I am currently trying, I go back and forth between an entomb package and a crop rotation package...
You definitely have some number of Rotation in there, probably 2. You never want 3 Entomb I don't think (despite that it could get you a full combo), so I think running 3 Entomb would make sense. Swap in 1 Rotation there.

I think I'd say the same about Thoughtseize #4. Getting 3 feels terrible, so going to 3 seems good. Swap in a second Rotation there.

Since Library doesn't stack, I'd say get Loam#2 there.
Drop 1 Decay for Darkblast I think (Entomb!), maybe the pharoah (or both!)

[hovercraft]

Lands(25)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures(12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker

Engine(7)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library

Spells(16)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Entomb

Sideboard(15)
1 Boseiju2, Who Shelters All
2 Tsunami
3 Lost Legacy
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
2 Krosan Grip

This is what I am currently trying, I go back and forth between an entomb package and a crop rotation package...

Have you tried running some Hexmages too? Still a creature if you need aggro plan but increases your likelihood of comboing. I have played a lot of BG Depths and Junk Depths and once I put Hexmages in they never came back out. Living Wish package can be great in a shell like this too for combo pieces and utility lands/creatures.

[Mr. Safety]

When I ran my version with only 1 Depths I played 4x Crop Rotation and 4x Vampire Hexmage. Both are incredible utility cards that are valuable even if you get Depths extracted. Entomb is great for loam shenanigans (ravens crime, getting back depths post-wasteland) but it actually adds a step to the combo and leaves you vulnerable to Deathrite Shaman/grave hate. Crop Rotation is an instant speed way to create a Marit Lage.

For reference, this was my first version:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Crop Rotation
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Life from the Loam
2x Sylvan Library

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
4x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard had some singleton lands (Karakas, Maze of Ith, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm) which I loved. The deck worked ok; it was a combo deck but could also grind really well.

If I had everything I needed to build it the way I wanted, this is what I would do:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
4x Crop Rotation


4x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold

The mana would change because I'd have access to more Bayous and Dark Depths taking up more slots. Volrath's Stronghold lets your 9 dudes keep coming back (also wanted to try it with Shriekmaws, but its already janky, I didn't want to go over the deep end...) The plan was to just shred their hand of answers on-curve (thoughtseize>hymn>liliana) and then play a grinding Liliana game until I can draw into the combo. Hexmage was surprisingly good in combat (a lot of people forget about first strike) and I had zero fear of JtMS. Sideboard would still have the singleton lands.

Sometimes you would just have the nuts: turn 1 urborg/discard to clear the way, turn 2 Depths/Hexmage, turn 3 kill. Realistically it would be a few turns later, but once folks started playing around Dark Depths it lets your normally good cards become better. Hexmage/DRS become real win conditions if they let them go unchecked. You just play a normal Rock game plan of good-stuff disruption until you pry open your window to 20/20 them. I would sideboard a set of Dark Confidant and some extra loams for sure, another way to just out-value anything fair.

[KoDiamonds]

I know theres been a lot of discussion with the straight BG build, but I hope people wont mind if I shift the talks over to my Abzan build.

Heres my current list.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

I just want to give a shoutout to tescrin with the Enlightened Tutor tech in the sideboard. Ive really liked it and helped consistently have my silver bullet sideboard cards.

Heres some points that I would like input on.

A) 2 Sylvan Libraries. Theyve been great. However, Ive seen an uptick in Leovold (they seem everywhere online) and w/o removal, they just get shut down. I am wondering if I should go down to just 1 copy.
B) I think I want 4 Lingering Souls at this point. My deck wants to hose fair matchups and playing a playset of Souls should help improve my % points there. However, what should I cut main?
C) Ive noticed that ive been boarding in Pithing Needle less and less since Top got banned. Has anyone else felt that way? I took it out of the board for 1 Maelstrom Pulse.
D) I feel like Pulse is a maindeckable card. So if I go +1 Pulse +1 Souls main, what should be cut? I am thinking 1 Library and 1 LotV, which opens up 1 sideboard slot. What are peoples thoughts?
E) Any other thoughts are appreciated!

[tescrin]

thanks for the shoutout!


A) Personally that's my thoughts on library. Potentially do the Grim Flayer trick others have mentioned (just swapping it out) since he improves your draws in a similar manner. Also, for your list, the flashback synergy is good.

B) I think if you want a 4th Souls, you'll have to consider it's anti-synergy with Deluge. Arguments can be made for the Library you're thinking or the 22nd land as well.

C) I run two needle in the board even with my tutors (moved a Revoker to a 2nd needle) specifically because it hits lands. Lands (the deck) is a pretty easy matchup if you can keep yourself from getting locked out, and a pair of needles + RIP + 1-2 Tutors has made it a pretty positive MU for my brew. Additionally, the majority of my losses to lands are actually attributable to Maze of Ith stalling until they get a Tabernacle, and then the awkward 20minute grind begins; and Needle helps keep that from happening too.

D) Same suggestion as before. Pulse is nice when it hits BSK and it occasionally scatters some tokens to the wind or gets a 2-for-1. I can see it being in a Lily slot.


E) I think the only thing to mention is be ready for RiPs if they happen. Going deep on Lingering Souls makes RiPs that much more potent. Luckily they're in lower numbers right now; but something to keep in mind. Personally I've been using Bitterblossom a lot in my Esper deck and it's a brutal card. Given the Goyf synergy I think you should test it out, which also strengthens your manabase.

[KoDiamonds]

thanks for the shoutout!


A) Personally that's my thoughts on library. Potentially do the Grim Flayer trick others have mentioned (just swapping it out) since he improves your draws in a similar manner. Also, for your list, the flashback synergy is good.

B) I think if you want a 4th Souls, you'll have to consider it's anti-synergy with Deluge. Arguments can be made for the Library you're thinking or the 22nd land as well.

C) I run two needle in the board even with my tutors (moved a Revoker to a 2nd needle) specifically because it hits lands. Lands (the deck) is a pretty easy matchup if you can keep yourself from getting locked out, and a pair of needles + RIP + 1-2 Tutors has made it a pretty positive MU for my brew. Additionally, the majority of my losses to lands are actually attributable to Maze of Ith stalling until they get a Tabernacle, and then the awkward 20minute grind begins; and Needle helps keep that from happening too.

D) Same suggestion as before. Pulse is nice when it hits BSK and it occasionally scatters some tokens to the wind or gets a 2-for-1. I can see it being in a Lily slot.


E) I think the only thing to mention is be ready for RiPs if they happen. Going deep on Lingering Souls makes RiPs that much more potent. Luckily they're in lower numbers right now; but something to keep in mind. Personally I've been using Bitterblossom a lot in my Esper deck and it's a brutal card. Given the Goyf synergy I think you should test it out, which also strengthens your manabase.
As always, thanks for your input Tescrin! Greatly appreciated.

A) Is Grim Flayer actually played in Legacy? lol. I mean in every matchup except Leovold decks, Sylvan Library is just miles better, isn't it?

B) Swapping a 2nd Library for a 4th Souls really makes me worried about my curve. 18 two-drops & 8 three-drops. Doing that swap would make it 17 & 9. I guess three souls isn't too bad for now. I just don't want a bunch of clunky three drops stuck in my hand.

C) I think you're right. I also played vs. D&T and I really miss Pithing Needle in that matchup as well. Naming Aether Vial early game into Mother of Runes, Manriki-Gusari, etc. What other matchups do you board in Pithing Needle in?

D) Yeah, I think that's the one change I'm going to make. -1 Liliana of the Veil +1 Maelstrom Pulse and keep the Pithing Needle in the side

E) I've always been a little iffy about Bitterblossom in every format. First off, it's just really slow, while Lingering Souls just gives me my tokens immediately. Second, with three Bobs and two Libraries, I'm pretty liberal with my life total already. Adding Bitterblossom just seems like a little too much.

EDIT F) I have another question. In terms of my manabase, this is a very particular question, but every % pt counts. Should I swap my 2nd Windswept Heath for a playset of Marsh Flats? (4 Catacombs, 4 Flats, 1 Heath) Or keep it the same? (4 Catacombs, 3 Flats, 2 Heath)?

[CptHaddock]

As always, thanks for your input Tescrin! Greatly appreciated.

A) Is Grim Flayer actually played in Legacy? lol. I mean in every matchup except Leovold decks, Sylvan Library is just miles better, isn't it?


I think he's playable although I think that you are comparing him to the wrong card. You really should be comparing him to bob, he's a pseudo bob who won't die to most red removal.



C) I think you're right. I also played vs. D&T and I really miss Pithing Needle in that matchup as well. Naming Aether Vial early game into Mother of Runes, Manriki-Gusari, etc. What other matchups do you board in Pithing Needle in?


Lands, Elves, D&T, Maverick and against decks that have walkers although you do have treetop to pressure them.

[KoDiamonds]

CptHaddock: I think I would rather have library and bobs over flayers. Also, Thanks for your sideboard input!

On the topic of Sylvan Library, has anyone tried out Mirri's Guile instead? I currently have 2 Libraries, but I think I am going to test a 1:1 split. Having duplicate libraries does nothing. However, if you have Bob, you can stack Guile, take no damage, and then draw off library. Its also 1 mana AND gets around Leovold. Seems solid if Im going to dedicate 2 slots anyway to Library, why not do a 1:1 split? What are peoples thoughts on this?

[Megadeus]

I originally posted this list in the Aggro Loam thread, but it's probably more appropriate here. I'm 7-1 so far the past two weeks with the list and it feels pretty nice. I have only tested a bit against Delver though. Not sure how I'd fare in the MU
Junk Loam Blade:

Maindeck (61)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
2 Painful Truths
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Crop Rotation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 To the Slaughter
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/03902887-1607-4133-8812-bd8ce644cbbf

[Jain_Mor]

So I felt goyf is getting worse and decay less necessary and moved to almost straight BW. A cousin of Junk really, so thought you'd all be interested in my report and discussion winning with the deck in a 6 round + top 8 tournament, even if it is posted in the Deadguy forum. I'm currently 24-9 (73%) in events the past few months, so Abzan has something going for it, and I think it's on the back of drs, wasteland, powerful discard, efficient removal, bob, souls and equipment + hatebears.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-Deck-Deadguy-Ale-B-w-Confidant&p=1016318&viewfull=1#post1016318

hope it tickles your interest

[lavafrogg]

I originally posted this list in the Aggro Loam thread, but it's probably more appropriate here. I'm 7-1 so far the past two weeks with the list and it feels pretty nice. I have only tested a bit against Delver though. Not sure how I'd fare in the MU
Junk Loam Blade:

Maindeck (61)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
2 Painful Truths
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Crop Rotation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 To the Slaughter
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/03902887-1607-4133-8812-bd8ce644cbbf

Isn't Chalice of the Void the best reason to run an aggo loam deck?

[Megadeus]

Chalice can provide clunky games. Yes it's powerful, but I'm more using the diamonds in this deck to provide fast mana to drop threats early. Junk has used loam and diamonds before. Being able to get removal past daze mana quickly is nice as is having powerful engines with loam and cycle lands. Turn 1 stone forge forces the opponent to do something quickly or they will have to deal with bskull while I continue to disrupt the mana and add elsewhere to the board.

[Claymore]

Think Grim Flayer might be better than Painful Truths? With the Rallier, Loam, and Lingering Souls package, I think Flayer could play well in your list.

Turn 1 Flayer also seems decent.

What have the matchups been like?

[Mr. Safety]

While I pick up cards for Pox I am working with this deck. I am still testing the Mom plan, with pretty good results I think (just practice games so far.) I don't have SFM so instead I am focusing on Goyf/KotR. I also picked up a Bayou in trade so my mana is getting really close to correct. I welcome any comments for sure. The curve is really solid, split almost evenly between 1-2 drops with 5 3-drops. It seems to work out well where I have a really good turn 1 play, turn 2 play, with some sort of powerful turn 3 option (wasteland + goyf/bob or Liliana/Knight.)

4x Mother of Runes
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Vindicate
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karaka
1x Maze of Ith
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Golgari Charm
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Life from the Loam
1x Duress
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Choke


I know it would be super greedy, but I really want to splash a blue dual + 2-3 Meddling Mage in the board. I think it would be such a solid way to shut off cards while still applying pressure. I'm officially off Sinkhole (just isn't good enough) and back onto Hymn/Liliana split. So many good cards that I can't squeeze in (lingering souls, inquisition, pernicious deed, fatal push, etc.) I may have my mix wrong or I may be playing sub-par cards. Be honest, I can take constructive criticism well.

[Megadeus]

Truths has been decent, but I'm definitely considering Bob or Grim in that slot. Probably will pick up some flayers to try out. I just haven't wanted to spend the money. I've lost only to DnT so far. I think it's winnable. Beaten up on UWR control, uw stone blade, BR Reanimator, a bad lands player, and Hex Depths is what I remember

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't Chalice of the Void the best reason to run an aggo loam deck?

If no chalice, isn't Deathrite Shaman at least a really strong consideration?

[Megadeus]

If no chalice, isn't Deathrite Shaman at least a really strong consideration?

Possibly. I'm worried that with DRS too that the deck begins to be a bit too heavy on mana and I have trouble finding threats

[Mr. Safety]

Possibly. I'm worried that with DRS too that the deck begins to be a bit too heavy on mana and I have trouble finding threats

I've found DRS to be an incredible threat all by himself. I find games where I draw and play multiple DRS going very well. Doubling up spells or simply Wasteland-ing without worrying about being too mana light. I also focus on Bob/Library quite a bit. The only reason I don't run 4 bobs is because multiples get awkward. I'm considering a 1-of Painful Truths honestly, just so I still have draw power without having to commit to ongoing lifeloss for CA.

[Megadeus]

I've really liked Truths. I played against Lands last week and truths let me keep a double diamond 3 land hand. Turn 1 truths followed up by turn 2 KOTR that I drew off of it. The diamonds allowed me to not get ported out and all my big dudes laughed at PFires

[Mr. Safety]

I've really liked Truths. I played against Lands last week and truths let me keep a double diamond 3 land hand. Turn 1 truths followed up by turn 2 KOTR that I drew off of it. The diamonds allowed me to not get ported out and all my big dudes laughed at PFires

Nice! I am playing without Mox Diamonds, but I understand it was once fairly stock to do so. Starts like that are absurd. I'm definitely committed to playing big threats protected by MoM (Goyf/Knight.) What I love about the Mom plan is it's an automatic 4 flex slots against decks she isn't needed. Truths could be a sideboard card, or it could simply take up another random slot. Library is awkward when I draw both, but that happens rarely (the first library digs into a fetchland to get rid of it) but I could see just jamming a PT instead of the 2nd Library (or maybe I just cut a Sculler for it.)

[KoDiamonds]

Nice! I am playing without Mox Diamonds, but I understand it was once fairly stock to do so. Starts like that are absurd. I'm definitely committed to playing big threats protected by MoM (Goyf/Knight.) What I love about the Mom plan is it's an automatic 4 flex slots against decks she isn't needed. Truths could be a sideboard card, or it could simply take up another random slot. Library is awkward when I draw both, but that happens rarely (the first library digs into a fetchland to get rid of it) but I could see just jamming a PT instead of the 2nd Library (or maybe I just cut a Sculler for it.)
If you have Bobs and have 2 Libraries, I strongly recommend doing a 1:1 split of Sylvan Library and Mirri's Guile instead. Ive been testing it and really like it. First off, its 1 mana. Second, it synergizes with Bob very well. Third, you can have bob, guile, and library all on the field and be fine. Theres also cute tricks like fetching after the guile trigger if all 3 cards are bad. Last, but most importantly, it gets around Leovold.

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 again with my bastardized list. Lost to BUG Leovold after he kept a 1 lander with ponder, I thoughtseized it and he drew running 3 lands in a row while I drew none. Get fucked. Beat up Infect, MUD, and Jund Depths. His face when I cast crop rotation in game 3 to Stage on his depths was excellent

[Wakkz]

Hi all!
Im new to Legacy, but have been a liliana, goyf, bob user for a while.
This Junk list is something I have been looking for and was wondering why no love for fatal push?
Or is StP better when I can exile my own creature to gain life or something?

[Mr. Safety]

Hi all!
Im new to Legacy, but have been a liliana, goyf, bob user for a while.
This Junk list is something I have been looking for and was wondering why no love for fatal push?
Or is StP better when I can exile my own creature to gain life or something?

If you have a strong emphasis on Scavenging Ooze, I would play more Fatal Push. Exiling is generally just a free upgrade with StP, and its already in your colors. Most Eldrazi and Griselbrand are immune to Fatal Push, both of which are very popular in Legacy. It also makes opposing Scavenging Oozes worse. StP has some minor friction with Deathrite Shaman (because you can't use your own Deathrites to gain life) but that comes up rarely (in my experience.) *shrug* Test both out. I am honestly too lazy to swap them out, and I'm not sure what number I would swap out. I would always want some number of StP. Fatal Push is much better in non-white decks because they need it (grixis, bug, etc.)

[Claymore]

The big thing with Swords is that you can deal with bigger creatures (obviously). Marit Lage, Gurmag Angler, the Eldrazi, and Mirran Crusader are the typical threats that you need Swords to deal with instead of Fatal Push.

Push does work better with a deck that wants to T1 Thoughtseize or DRS, so that's something to keep in mind.

[harbingerofthevoid]

This is what I've been testing out online

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ramunap Excavator

3 Fatal Push
1 Nameless Inversion
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Mox Diamond

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta

Sideboard

2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
2 Bitterblossom
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Make Obsolete
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

My meta has Reanimator and Bauble/Bomberman so Null Rod and Leyline are for those. Not much, that I've seen, combo. There is Burn so not sure what to SB for that, possibly more discard. I have thought about adding another dual/basic and an off-color answer but haven't decided. With mox/fetch/shaman, 1 off-color card wouldn't be hard to fit in. Make Obsolete is high CMC but being 1-sided is what I need over Golgari Charm. If Charm hit artifacts it would be better for my meta. Choke over Bitter Blossom is a probable swap too.

Last several weeks meta (that I remember) :

Bauble/Bomerman - Painter - MonoR Sneak (same player)
BR reanimator (trying to switch to DnT)
Elves
Jund
4c Good Stuff
Burn
"Miracles"
BUG Delver

[CptHaddock]

My meta has Reanimator and Bauble/Bomberman so Null Rod and Leyline are for those. Not much, that I've seen, combo. There is Burn so not sure what to SB for that, possibly more discard. I have thought about adding another dual/basic and an off-color answer but haven't decided. With mox/fetch/shaman, 1 off-color card wouldn't be hard to fit in. Make Obsolete is high CMC but being 1-sided is what I need over Golgari Charm. If Charm hit artifacts it would be better for my meta. Choke over Bitter Blossom is a probable swap too.


If you're just looking for the -1/-1 effect why not just play Marsh Casualties? BB shouldn't be hard to get in just plain BG Rock.

[Mr. Safety]

@harbingerofthevoid: If that is your metagame, I would consider swapping Thoughtseize with Inquisition of Kozilek. It hits everything you want it to without the lifeloss, which can be significant against burn, and even Jund, with such a strong emphasis on Dark Confidant (once you go straight b/g you lean on Bobs in a big way, in my experience.) I also think Scavenging Ooze would be nutty-good in that metagame, especially strong with all of the green mana you have available.

I can't help but think that Phyrexian Obliterator x1-2 would also be incredible, or even Garruk Relentless. Fair decks won't attack into Obliterator and Garruk Relentless makes it such a slog to get through combat for them if unanswered. For Elves I like Darkblast and the aforementioned Marsh Casualties. In general I think your deck would really love 1-2 Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile.

EDIT: What's the Nameless Inversion for? Goyf pumping? I don't think it's worth the sub-par card choice (IMHO.)

EDIT #2: Obliterator would force some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 for the third week in a row. Tried out a couple green Sun and excavator. He won me a game against Jund, and... attacked for 2 against sneak and derp. I got to play him and get back a dryad Arbor to protect from Liliana and then go to town with a jitte. Was pretty sweet. So far I'm 4-0 and then 3 3-1's at my weeklies. I'm worried though that some of my wins are coming against some sub-par opponents. I don't think I'll get as many free wins against people this weekend at the classic in Atlanta, but we'll see.

[Mr. Safety]

Went 3-1 for the third week in a row. Tried out a couple green Sun and excavator. He won me a game against Jund, and... attacked for 2 against sneak and derp. I got to play him and get back a dryad Arbor to protect from Liliana and then go to town with a jitte. Was pretty sweet. So far I'm 4-0 and then 3 3-1's at my weeklies. I'm worried though that some of my wins are coming against some sub-par opponents. I don't think I'll get as many free wins against people this weekend at the classic in Atlanta, but we'll see.

Nice! Good luck!

[KoDiamonds]

With Lands having an uptick presence in my meta, is Tsabo's Web worth considering? (I have an Enlightened Tutor toolbox sideboard)

I feel like my sideboard is lackluster in that matchup, only having 2x Surgicals and 1x Pithing Needle. It would be nice having a silver bullet like Web and 2x copies of Enlightened Tutor to tutor it up. On the flip side, it is a SUPER narrow card and wont be brought in vs other matchups.

Thoughts or other suggestions?

[Mr. Safety]

The lands matchup is one reason why I started playing Knight of the Reliquary again. Knight can tutor up Wasteland to stall them out for a turn or two, he's almost always out of Punishing Fire range, tutors up Karakas, and he can activate for a timely Bojuka Bog. It doesn't get rid of their inevitability (which is huge) but it can let you play a tempo game against them. Their faster starts are almost unwinnable (in my limited experience against lands) if you don't draw exactly into Wasteland + Surgical Extraction. Karakas/Maze of Ith are both susceptible to their Wastelands, so they are not a fool-proof answer.

EDIT: Tsabo's Web doesn't stop the Depths combo, so I don't think its worth slots at all really. Locking up Grove or other utility lands doesn't seem like enough. I would sideboard more Pithing Needles.

[Claymore]

If you ran some kind of troll Rock deck with Thalia Heretic then Tsabo's web would be hilarious. Otherwise, agree with running Needles and Wastelands.

[Mr. Safety]

So I tried the Mom list, liked it for the edge in fair matchups, hated it against anything unfair. My reasoning was always to sideboard them out against unfair matches, but I forgot that most unfair matchups cause me to sideboard some amount of dead removal. That leaves me with wimpy 1/1 attackers that are at least better than nothing. Yuck. So I went back to more discard, here is my current list (pretty stock) with 2 flex slots.

4x DRS
4x Bob
3x Sculler
4x Goyf
2x KotR

3x Thoughtseize
3x Iok
2x Hymn
3x Abrupt Decay
4x StP
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

2x OPEN

4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains

Sideboard
2x golgari charm
1x containment priest
1x gaddock teeg
2x ethersworn canonist
1x scavenging ooze
2x surgical extraction
2x choke
1x life from the loam
1x bojuka bog
2x pithing needle

My thoughts on the 2x open slots: Vindicate, Painful Truths, Lingering Souls, more Hymns, more Knights, more Liliana, maelstrom pulse. If I end up using Lingering Souls the sideboarded golgari charms will become zealous persecution. I know some folks are high on Painful Truths. With Bob/Library is it worth jamming more draw or do I play more threats?

[Megadeus]

Another week, another 3-0-1. Crucible man was sick as fuck. Got to just whittle down dnt man with cabal pit. Got to just wasteland and attack a lands player. Got to waste lock eldrazi. Probably will just play Maverick at the quarterly win a mox this weekend, but I think I'm something like 12-3-2 with the deck over the past month and a half. Definitely haven't been worse than 3-1 any time

[H]

Another week, another 3-0-1. Crucible man was sick as fuck. Got to just whittle down dnt man with cabal pit. Got to just wasteland and attack a lands player. Got to waste lock eldrazi. Probably will just play Maverick at the quarterly win a mox this weekend, but I think I'm something like 12-3-2 with the deck over the past month and a half. Definitely haven't been worse than 3-1 any time

Are you on Diamonds?

Is it a 2/2 split of Excavators and Green Sun's?

[Mr. Safety]

Another week, another 3-0-1. Crucible man was sick as fuck. Got to just whittle down dnt man with cabal pit. Got to just wasteland and attack a lands player. Got to waste lock eldrazi. Probably will just play Maverick at the quarterly win a mox this weekend, but I think I'm something like 12-3-2 with the deck over the past month and a half. Definitely haven't been worse than 3-1 any time

Sweet! I know your game plan is going big and fast with a strong emphasis on Loam/lands/Diamond. KotR has been overperforming for me as of late, but I also use Deathrite Shaman; theres tension between those two roommates. So far it has been Bert & Ernie tension, not anything I can't work around. Knight turns on DRS mana ability but shrinks Knight, but on average my knights have been 8/8 (which is plenty big enough lol.)

A few questions, if you don't mind:

1) How much combo do you face? Post-board your Thalia/Canonist plan is really strong, and I'm guessing you are pulling on Brutality main quite a bit as discard. I can't bring myself (yet) to cut Hymn to Tourach, but maybe its correct in the current fair-heavy metagame.

2) How good has Rogue's Passage been (if you still play it)? The classic tech is Sejiri Steppe, but I can see Passage's repeatability being very good.

3) Do you feel cycle lands/loam/Truths is a better card draw engine than Sylvan Library/Dark Confidant currently? It seems quite good, just slow. Against slow grindy decks it seems great, against faster decks it seems underwhelming.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[Megadeus]

Yeah my list with maybe a tweak or two is in an earlier post.

1) I face a fair amount of combo here, but it's mostly big fatty based (Reanimator show and tell) or depths. Which both of those karakas/ bog or infinite wastelands are very good. I'm probably a dog to storm, but nobody really plays it.

2) Passage is my pet land at this point. It definitely has won me games that no other land could. Maybe it's a trap, idk. Everyone keeps telling me it's terrible, but I'm going to keep playing it. I could see now that excavator is in the deck canopy may be better.

3) I don't have any of the draw spells at the moment actually. I'm leaning on cycle lands plus loam pretty much. I really need to try some other stuff. I just am lazy. I do find I run out of gas sometimes, but crucible man has kind of replaced the other card advantage things. I wished I had a ghost quarter the other night.

I think I may cut decay for more STP and put in a Pridemage or sage to green Sun for. Grixis has been an issue the last couple of times I've faced it.

[Claymore]

What did you cut for the 2x GSZ + Excavator? I might run the list at my next couple of 3 round locals.

[Megadeus]

I keep my list updated on Untapped. Haven't picked up a Stronghold yet, but it's replacing tower of the magistrate.
Junk Loam Blade:

Maindeck (61)
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Ramunap Excavator
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Crop Rotation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 To the Slaughter
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/03902887-1607-4133-8812-bd8ce644cbbf

[harbingerofthevoid]

Decided to go with this build for FNM:

Main:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ramunap Excavator
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Fatal Push
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge

Went 2-1 (5-3) for 3rd. Field was Rock, DnT, Junk, Deadguy, BR Reanimator, Food Chain and 2x ANT.

R1 RB Reanimator 2-0
G1 Some quick discard hitting Animate Deads that pumped Goyf. Drew 4 off Tracker. Inquisition and Collective Brutality took him off any reanimation spells.
G2 More discard, a little land destruction. Tracker and Goyf again. He finally got to get Tidespout Tyrant in play but I had Diabolic Edict in hand.

SB
+ 2 Needle, 1 Thorn and 3 Leylines never drew any of them
- 4 Decay, 1 Push, 1 Darkblast

R2 ANT 1-2
G1 I got Tendril'd like t3(?)
G2 T0 Leyline. T1 can't remember, Shaman or Inquisition probablly, T2 Null Rod. Later, E. Plague on Goblin. Scoop. I think this game landed a chalice on 1 as well.
G3 I had 2 4/5 Goyf, he had 12(?) Goblins.

Ghost Quater on a basic is tight when they run only 2 basics.

SB
+ 2 CotV, 2 Null Rod, 1 Thorn, 3 Leyline, 1 E. Plague, 1 Marsh Casulties, 1 Deluge
- 1 Excavator, 1 Darkblast, 1 Push, 4 Decay, 1 Garruk, 3 Diabolic Edict

R3 ANT 2-1
G1 Tendril'd pretty quick
G2 He Duress my Null Rod. He also brought in Fatal Push. Made it tough to stick a creature. he made me discard Liliana and E. Plague so i got to swing with 5/6 Goyf. He Tendril'd to stay alive hitting me for 14. Couldn't kill Goyf so it took 3 more swings to finish it.
G3 Get a Chailice on 0. Ghost Quater is good again. 2 big Goyf. He Ad Nauseum I Deathrite in response. He goes down to 3 life but drew no gas.

SB
+ 2 CotV, 2 Null Rod, 1 Thorn, 3 Leyline, 1 E. Plague, 1 Marsh Casulties, 1 Deluge, 2 Needle
- 1 Shaman, 1 Darkblast, 1 Push, 4 Decay, 1 Garruk, 1 Cabal Pit, 3 Diabolic Edict, 1 Surgical

Hell yeah 13 card SB!

Didn't get to play vs any of the other fair decks but seemed to fair pretty well vs the other half. All in all I'm liking this build fine. Sadly never drew Garruk or Excavator. I never drew Darkblast any game either but it wouldn't have done any good any way. Ended up only taking I believe a total of 4 damage form Bob out of 8 games. I mean I only saw him 3 times so...

[Mr. Safety]

I also did FNM this past friday with my list. I went 1-2-1, beating 4c Aggro Loam, losing to Elves and Uw stoneblade, and drawin with Jeskai Stoneblade. Bob and Library were awesome all night long. I need better answers for elves, and a better way to grind out the stoneblade matchups. I will be using this as my sideboard going forward:

1x Engineered Explosives
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Exraction
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x Pithing Needle
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Choke

One potential way to grind out the stoneblad matchups would be to play Lingering Souls maindeck over Knight. I would lose the toolbox, but I would gain some serious grind power. Not sure on what is better, for now sticking with Knight. I also played a Treetop Village, which overperformed by a lot. All of my cards were doing incredible at doing what the deck needs. Mana was perfect, Sculler was aces just pure gas. I also was reinforced just how good Liliana is. Three maindeck now.

Overall, I really like where the deck is at. Goyf and Bob are just amazing as always, and with a great curve of discard into threats they shine. I am in the minority of junk/deadguy players in that I don't play SFM. It might be wrong but I really like all the discard setting up big goyfs/knights for big swings. I feel like I was in every game. Some misplays were made and some slot choices weren't optimal, but that can be rectified. Lovin' the bgw life.

[KoDiamonds]

So I think I am ready to take the next step in terms of playing on MTGO. I play the competitive leagues religiously for modern but have been hesitant for Legacy (Its such a wide open format and punishes more for misplays). Ive been sticking to tournament practices but i think ill start a Legacy League this week or next. I guess Ive been hesitent running a deck thats not exactly tiered.

Heres my current list. Any input before I run it through?

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

[Mr. Safety]

Looks solid to me. I'm not sure how good Lingering Souls is in the online metagame, but its always a great value card regardless. I always want to squeeze more out of them than I should (Cabal Therapy mostly.) I would recommend trying to get hold of a Karakas if you can.

EDIT: That brings me to a question for the Rock crew: which to you like better ATM, Knight of the Reliquary or Lingering Souls? I have 3 flexible slots and those are really my two options. I love the Knight toolbox but I think Lingering Souls might be better at grinding through Stoneblade matchups (which are a big part of my metagame.) I always figured Souls got worse without SfM/equips, but maybe they are just fine on their own.

Thoughts?

[H]

Any input before I run it through?

I generally subscribe to the sdematt theory of Linger Souls and Equipment that says Batterskull might not be ideal and something (like another Sword) with a lower casting cost and Equip might be better since you can actually get it onto a Spirit token more reasonably.

[KoDiamonds]

Looks solid to me. I'm not sure how good Lingering Souls is in the online metagame, but its always a great value card regardless. I always want to squeeze more out of them than I should (Cabal Therapy mostly.) I would recommend trying to get hold of a Karakas if you can.

EDIT: That brings me to a question for the Rock crew: which to you like better ATM, Knight of the Reliquary or Lingering Souls? I have 3 flexible slots and those are really my two options. I love the Knight toolbox but I think Lingering Souls might be better at grinding through Stoneblade matchups (which are a big part of my metagame.) I always figured Souls got worse without SfM/equips, but maybe they are just fine on their own.

Thoughts?
Does anyone else play in the Legacy Leagues? Id like to know how the meta is online as well.

As per Karakas, I originally had it in my list. After a couple months, I concluded that the second mono white source in the deck hurt me more than the bounce ability was relevent. That slot has been way more useful as Treetop Village.

In terms of souls vs kotr, I think it depends on your playstyle. I like my 4 for 1s so Souls is my kind of card. The greatest feeling in the world is having your Lingering Souls Force'd ;)

That being said, KOTR leads to more haymaker plays, being able to tutor up wasteland, karakas, etc. However, Fatal Push is seeing more and more play and I like my resilient threats. It baffles me how difficult it is for the legacy format to deal with four 1/1s.

I generally subscribe to the sdematt theory of Linger Souls and Equipment that says Batterskull might not be ideal and something (like another Sword) with a lower casting cost and Equip might be better since you can actually get it onto a Spirit token more reasonably.
Yeah, I saw that some pages back. I experimented with Sword of Light and Shadow, a 2nd Jitte, etc and went back to Batterskull. Im in the camp of if your Stoneforge resolves T2, you search up Jitte/SoFI so you still net CA instead of having a 5 drop in hand.

And you havent lived the day of equiping a Batterskull to a spirit, have you?!

In regards to my list again, I think my mainboard is set. Im a little iffy on the mainboard Pulse (not sure if it should be a 3rd Hymn). However I am having second thoughts about my sideboard.


Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

I am wondering if I should cut the Enlightened Tutor package, and have more needles, priests, etc. It might look like this


Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
Last slot being either a 3rd Canonist, 3rd Containment Priest or Engineered Plague.

I feel like this sideboard hedges better vs lands with 2 Needles and 3 Surgicals. On the flip side, a matchup like elves becomes harder since Cage/Plague isnt tutorable. On top of that, I have "less" copies of Canonist vs the Storm matchup.

On the flip side again, it sucks drawing an E Tutor late game when I needed a hate card ASAP.

I feel like both boards have their pros and cons and I would like peoples input.

[Claymore]

It's not quite the entire Legacy League break down, but this thread has some good data on the Challenges - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31882-MTGO-Legacy-Challenge-Metagame-Breakdowns

[H]

Yeah, I saw that some pages back. I experimented with Sword of Light and Shadow, a 2nd Jitte, etc and went back to Batterskull. Im in the camp of if your Stoneforge resolves T2, you search up Jitte/SoFI so you still net CA instead of having a 5 drop in hand.

And you havent lived the day of equiping a Batterskull to a spirit, have you?!

I have Equiped a 'Skull to many things in many places, from Spirits to Wolf tokens, but it isn't really all that likely in an average game.

Not that I am a Batterskull hater, I've won a fair share of games were an opponent simply couldn't do anything about it, just pointing out that it could be a consideration.

[Mr. Safety]

@KoDiamonds: I love me some haymaker tutoring a-la Knight, lol. Your point about souls being good is valid though.

[8bit9mm]

R2 ANT 1-2
G1 I got Tendril'd like t3(?)
G2 T0 Leyline. T1 can't remember, Shaman or Inquisition probablly, T2 Null Rod. Later, E. Plague on Goblin. Scoop. I think this game landed a chalice on 1 as well.
G3 I had 2 4/5 Goyf, he had 12(?) Goblins.

Ghost Quater on a basic is tight when they run only 2 basics.

SB
+ 2 CotV, 2 Null Rod, 1 Thorn, 3 Leyline, 1 E. Plague, 1 Marsh Casulties, 1 Deluge
- 1 Excavator, 1 Darkblast, 1 Push, 4 Decay, 1 Garruk, 3 Diabolic Edict


I was on TES, not ANT. The Burning Wish(s) and 2 basics is the big indicator. That's why I could have cared less about your Leyline G2 and made it a point G1 to show you that I was going to Burning Wish for Tendrils, not just Infernal Tutor.

G1: it was turn 2 :wink:
G2: you Chaliced on zero, which is good, but with a Null Rod out, you want to drop it on 1 for sure. I was hedging against t2 Hymn, by casting Ponder, when I should have just Duressed you.
G3: was way closer than I wanted it to be. If you had blocked with your Goyfs, instead of trying to race (which was too close for comfort, honestly), the math would have worked out to give you one extra turn (at 1-2) life to draw an answer.

[KoDiamonds]

So I havent been able to play MTGO much this past week, but currently 3-1 in my competitive league. My only loss is to Eldrazi. Are there any sideboard cards for this matchup? Luckily my opponent didnt draw any Chalices, but even without them, this matchup seems really bad. I boarded in Humility, which stemmed the bleeding, but All is Dust ended the game quick.

What are people's sideboard plans in this matchup?

[CptHaddock]

So I havent been able to play MTGO much this past week, but currently 3-1 in my competitive league. My only loss is to Eldrazi. Are there any sideboard cards for this matchup? Luckily my opponent didnt draw any Chalices, but even without them, this matchup seems really bad. I boarded in Humility, which stemmed the bleeding, but All is Dust ended the game quick.

What are people's sideboard plans in this matchup?

I think we're pretty naturally favored in this MU. Goyf is usually larger than anything they play and Hymn/Liliana are usually backbreaking for them. Sometimes they just draw better and run you over. I bring in a Loam (for wasteland) and a Pithing Needle (So they can't search with Eye in the late game). Postboard you just have to keep in mind that they have all is dust and play around it as you would for any other matchup with boardwipes. Against the bigger eldrazi ramp deck i'll mulligan until I find some form of interaction.

[KoDiamonds]

I think we're pretty naturally favored in this MU. Goyf is usually larger than anything they play and Hymn/Liliana are usually backbreaking for them. Sometimes they just draw better and run you over. I bring in a Loam (for wasteland) and a Pithing Needle (So they can't search with Eye in the late game). Postboard you just have to keep in mind that they have all is dust and play around it as you would for any other matchup with boardwipes. Against the bigger eldrazi ramp deck i'll mulligan until I find some form of interaction.
Thanks for the input. It just seems rough if they start off with Chalice on 1. In terms of goyf, it seems like hell on average be a 4/5, which sadly cant block Smashers profitably. I guess Ill playtest the matchup more when I get the time.

In terms of updates, I completed my Legacy league with a record of 4-1. Went 3-0 vs blue decks (grixis, bug), lost to Eldrazi (above post, and beat Belcher. These games sadly didnt allow me to utilize my Enlightened Tutor sideboard plan for the last time (which probably says something. Why have a sideboard tutor package when you arent going to use it).

Ill run another league through with this updated list and post back updates.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

The changes being -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Engineered Plague, -1 Humility, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical, +1 Hymn.

3 Surgicals feel like a lot but in matchups where you want it (reanimator, lands, etc) it feels perfect. I also added the 3rd Hymn to the sideboard to better hedge vs Storm. I used to run 3 in the main and miss the 3rd in the 75. Made sense to have an extra copy in the sideboard.

The only slot I am really iffy about is the 1 main Maelstrom Pulse. It was always good, but not great. Just felt really clunky to kill a flipped Delver for 3 mana. Not sure what could be a better slot. Maybe main the 3rd hymn and move the Pulse to the side?

Any other last minute input before my next league?

[KoDiamonds]

Another League report with the following list.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Round 1 vs. Grixis Delver (0-2)

Game 1 opponent goes t1 delver, t2 deathrite, t3 angler and I don't draw a 3rd land even with Mirri's Guile.
Game 2 Opponent strips my hand by casting Therapy 3 times (hitting lilly x2, sword, and pulse) and Truename just beats me down while STrix just holds the fort down for my opponent.

Round 2 vs. Burn (2-0)
Game 1 Casting 2 Thoughtseizes saves me 2 life and a creature by hitting Searing Blaze and Rift Bolt. Treetops were highly relevant and helped block Guides/Swiftspears. Went down to 1 life at one point. Had the Dark Confidant + Sylvan Library combo going so I wasn't taking any damage. Opponent at one point tried to Searing Blaze my spirit token and I Decayed it to save me 3 life. Eventually a topdecked Jitte helped buffer my life. It was a great game.

Game 2 Opponent casts two Pyrostatic Pillars while I have a Stoneforge in play with Batterskull. He misplays by trying to Smash to Smithereens my Batterskull while I had 3 mana open. And that was that.

Round 3 vs. Storm (0-2)

Game 1 I mulligan to 6 hand with no discard and my opponent kills me Turn 3.
Game 2 I keep a hand of Forest, Deathrite, Hymn, Lilly, Stoneforge, Decay. It's a little greedy and I think it's a mulligan now that I look at it. I play a t1 deathrite and my opponent Duresses my Hymn away. I T2 lilly and plussed. My opponent Chain of Vapors my Lilly and Therapys it away.
Next turn I cast Stoneforge while my opponent double ponders. Then my opponent proceeded to kill me on Turn 4.

Round 4 vs. UW D&T (2-0)
Game 1 opponent ONLY casts Phyrexian Revoker as I beat down with Stoneforge tutoring up Jitte, spirits, and drawing Sword.
Game 2 I actually didn't know what I was playing since I only saw Revoker. Mirri's Guile did work but sadly, I was stuck on 1 land and my opponent killed all of my Deathrites with Swords and an active Jitte
Game 3 active Bob just goes to town. I cast Stoneforge and have all 3 equipment in my hand and a Sword + Jitte on a goyf does work.

Round 5 vs. Mono White D&T (2-1)
Game 1 Bob does work as always. Sadly a Mirran Crusader beats down and I can't recover.
Game 2 Zealous Persecution takes out 2 Moms and a Stoneforge tutoring up Jitte keeps my opponent off creatures the rest of the game. Pulse also killed a Gideon which was sweet.
Game 3 Opponent mulligans to 6 and cast t1 mom. I t1 Thoughtseize and T2 Hymn his hand into shreds. I beat down with goyf, opponent blocks, and I decay Mom. Lingering Souls + Bob when my opponent has 2 lands and a Vial in play lets me drown my opponent in card advantage and beats.


Overall happy with the 3-2 record. Losses were to unlucky beats to Grixis Delver and Storm. I'll probably run the same 75 in the next league.



The biggest question I have is how many Surgicals are brought in vs. Storm? Do I board in all 3? I feel l like they don't do enough in a matchup that's already poor.

[burzum51]

I think the burn player won the fisrt game :tongue:. searing blaze do damage even if the creature is dead when it resolve.

Gatherer : if either target is illegal by the time Searing Blaze resolves, it still deals damage to the other target.

[KoDiamonds]

I think the burn player won the fisrt game :tongue:. searing blaze do damage even if the creature is dead when it resolve.

Gatherer : if either target is illegal by the time Searing Blaze resolves, it still deals damage to the other target.

Woops, meant Searing Blood!

[KoDiamonds]

So I ran my list through the Legacy league again, sadly went 2-3. Here's the list

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

My changes were swapping Pulse and Hymns. So I have 3 Hymns main and 1 Pulse side.

Round 1 vs. Shardless (0-2)
Game 1 Opponent went Shardless -> Hymn. I overcommitted to the board (2 deathrites, bob, and flashbacked spirits) into a Deluge. Shouldn't have flashed Souls back. Opponent was left with a lilly on 4 while my lilly was on 2. We were both hellbent at one point but my opponent just drew better than I did with Lilly at higher loyalty while mine kept getting pecked down to 2 vs. an opposing deathrite.

Game 2 Kept a greedy hand of Swamp, Deathrite, 2x goyf, library, chains, and souls. Opponent pushed my Deathrite T1 and I didn't draw another land

Round 2 vs. Sneak and Show (1-2)
Game 1: lost to a turn 1 Emrakul. (City + Petal)

Game 2: Opponent only casted a Ponder in the first 3 turns. I cast a Sword on turn 3 which got Forced. I surgicaled the Force and landed a Containment Priest and beat down with Mr. Goyf

Game 3: My opener was fetch, treetop, wasteland, goyf, goyf, stoneforge, needle. I'm not sure if this should have been a mulligan or not, but I figured if he was all in on Sneak Attack, I have t1 Needle, T2 Goyf for pressure. Hindsight, maybe I needed to mulligan into discard. I would like input on this matchup as I have little experience vs. Sneak and Show. My opponent ended up T2 Show and Telling Emrakul and I had no answer

Round 3 vs. Dredge (2-1)
Game 1: Opponent did Dredge things and I had no way of winning this game.

Game 2: My hand was Marsh Flats, Deathrite, 2x Containment Priest, 2x Goyf, 1x Jitte. I landed a t2 Priest with no 2nd land and no lands in my opponents graveyard, but 2/2 beats did wonders as my opponent couldn't put anything onto the board in time.

Game 3: Opponent went T1 Putrid Imp. Discarded Stinkweed Imp at EOT. On his upkeep, I surgicalled his Stinkweed Imp away and he scooped.

Round 4 vs. Storm (TES) (2-1)
Game 1: On the draw, my opener was Marsh Flats, Lilly, Thoughtseize, Bob, Hymn, and 2x Wastelands.
Opponent goes T1 mire pass. I draw lingering souls, cast Thoughtseize, see Delta, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Volc, LED. I take LED.
T2 Opponent plays Delta, pass. My T2, I didn't draw a second black source so I played Bob.
Opponent went off on Turn 3.

Game 2: I stick a T2 Canonist and my opponent doesn't draw his Echoing Truth.

Game 3: Opponent goes off on T1 with Ad Nauseum. Luckily, he literally hits ZERO rituals. He goes down to 4. Probes me, down to 2, and ends the turn. On my first turn, I play Deathrite. Opponent scoops.

Round 5 vs. UB Reanimator (0-2)
Game 1: Opponent goes T1 Careful Study, discarding Mire and Griselbrand.
I go T1 Thoughtseize (instead of deathrite to protect myself from a T2 reanimation).
Opponent reveals Reanimate, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Entomb. I take Reanimate.
Opponent on T2 casts Brainstorm and Thoughtseizes my Deathrite away.
I cast Guile on my T2. Opponent then Animate Dead's Griselbrand and I lose.

Game 2: I mulligan into Choke, Surgical, Tarmogoyf, STP, Bayou and Treetop. Scry a second Surgical to the top.
Opponent T1 Dark Ritual into Collective Brutality, taking my STP, and Reanimating back Chancellor of the Annex. I draw a useless Surgical and don't draw an answer to Chancellor.


I like the 3x Surgicals in the side and the 3 Hymns main seem right for the meta online. I'm unsure of the Maelstrom Pulse in the side however and might switch it to a 3rd Containment Priest since it does absolute work. We'll see though. I already started another league with the same list since the last match felt so bad and I'll report back again when I finish.

[KoDiamonds]

My LGS had its first weekly event last night. Sadly, I got a bye in the 2nd round of 3 so I only have 2 match results to report.

Round 1 (0-2) vs 4c Loam.
G1 On the draw, opponent went t1 chalice with my hand being 2x Thoughtseize, Deathrite, Jitte, and 3 lands. Never drew another threat while my opponent eventually hit a bob + knight of the reliquary
G2 I mulliganed and my opponent wastelanded me to oblivion. I think my misplay this match was being to hasty on my surgical. My opponent P-Fired my deathrite t1. On t2 I played SFG and surgicaled PFire to have it stick. He had loam in hand and it might have been the correct play to just wait. I also sideboarded incorrectly, should have boarded out discard.

Round 2 Bye

Round 3 (2-1 vs Food Chain)
Game 1 was a grind fest. Opponent had infinite combo while I was swinging through with a Spirit carrying a sword. Had lethal on board and opponent topdecks ballista ftw.
Game 2 grind was much the same. I was wastelanding my opponents green sources and played Choke so opponent was never able to cast Food Chain.
Game 3 similar to game 1, grind fest but my opponent never drew the combo. Batterskull was clutch all 3 games, racing Misthollow Griffin while also holding back Eternal Scourge.

List has been feeling solid. Considering maybe a Garruk Relentless for these grindy matchups.

[KoDiamonds]

I JUST 5-0d THE LEGACY LEAGUE!!!!!! Here's the usual decklist I ran.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Round 1 vs. Infect (2-0)
Game 1: Thoughtseize -> Hymn -> Bob drawing me more cards -> Stoneforge tutoring Jitte = game over
Game 2: I have 2 Zealous Persecutions. First one gets Dazed but the second one wipes opponent's board. Topdeck Jitte naturally and win pretty easily from there.

Round 2 vs. Nic Fit Curse?(2-1)
Game 1: T2 Hymn my opponent -> T3 Bob + Deathrite. I draw all the action while my opponent lands a spicy Porphyry Nodes. He ends up not drawing a topend spell and Goyfs + spirits get there.
Game 2: Opponent is on a NicFit but a noncreature topend with a bunch of curses. He lands Curse of Misfortunes and assembles the Overwhelming Splendor + Curse of Death's Hold combo and I don't draw Maelstrom Pulse. He ends up winning with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Super spicy.
I mainly lose this game because I was playing around Pernicious Deed and didn't want to commit too much to the board and he stabilizes just in time.
Game 3: I keep a hand of Catacombs, Thoughtseize x2, Hymn, Bob, Batterskull, Lilly. Super greedy but I Thoughtseize 2 turns in a row but sadly don't hit lands. Until turn 5. Luckily I draw a deathrite on turn 4 Lilly upticking does work. Opponent lands Curse of Death's Hold but I have a Sword of Fire and Ice + Jitte to grow a puny Stoneforge and she gets there.

Round 3 vs. TES (2-1)
Game 1: Opponent goes off Turn 3, making a jillion goblin tokens and I don't draw my only out (Stoneforge T2 + Batterskull). Also drew my Hymn a turn too late.
Game 2: T1 Thoughtseize revealing Brainstorm, Scalding Tarn, Burning Wish x2, Duress, Badlands, LED. I take Brainstorm. Opponent Duresses the Hymn out of my hand. I t2 Bob T3 Bob + DRS. Opponent Echoing Truths my Bobs, and then Massacres them the following turn. Opponent eventually draws all 4 Echoing Truths while I draw another Bob. Eventually my Bob sticks while my opponent casts Past in Flames for value (Brainstorm). I eventually beat down with said Bob -> Hymning him and opponent doesn't have enough gas. Felt like he oversideboarded.
Game 3: I mulligan to 5 :( Hand is 3x Deathrite, Bob, Forest.
Opponent goes off T2 Adnauseum and doesn't hit enough rituals, and concedes to my lethal deathrite

Round 4 vs. 4c Delver? (2-0)
Game 1: Long game and Mirri's Guile was an absolute house. I shredded my opponent's hand with Thoughtseize -> Hymn -> Hymn. I stick a Lingering Souls + Sword of Fire and Ice and easily win from there.
Game 2: T1 DRS gets bolted. T2 Hymn nabs opponent's Engineered Plague. Next turn, my Bob gets decayed. Opponent followed up with a Delver while I land a lingering souls. I draw Decay and four 1/1s are too much for my opponent.

Round 5 vs. ANT (2-0)
Game 1: My opening 7 was Abrupt Decay, 2x Bayou, Wasteland, Sword, Stoneforge, Lilly. For some reason, I felt like this was a mulligan. Blood pressure was too high to think straight, haha. Ended up going down to 5 being 2x DRS, Jitte, 2 fetches. Opponent T1 duresses me -> lotus petal -> cabal therapy naming DRS. Ouch. I'm left with 2 lands in hand while my opponent has 2 cards. I draw hymn and take his last cards (petal + Dark petition). I eventually draw Stoneforge mystic only to get my batterskull therapied. I draw another stoneforge and double Squire beats get there backed up by another Hymn.
Game 2: Opener is Stoneforge, Ethersworn Canonist, Surgical, Mirri's Guile, Marsh Flats, Heath, Bayou. Feeling good about this hand. T1 guile into T2 Hymn (that was the 3rd from the top, thanks guile :)). T3 Hymn again (thanks guile!) My Canonist gets decayed but my Goyf + Stoneforge is a quick enough clock to get there while I Choke my opponent out!


5-0 Baby!

In regards to the list, the 3rd Hymn felt great main deck and I didn't miss Pulse game 1. The only change I would make would be to cut the Treetop for the 2nd swamp (to accommodate for more Hymns+Lillys) and swapping the 4th Marsh Flats for the Windswept Heath. Treetop has been good but made my mana a little unstable so this is really for consistency sake.


We finally got there boys! Lets just hope I'm lucky and they pick my deck to be posted!

[Mr. Safety]

Nice! Just a great run of solid rock business.

[KoDiamonds]

Has anyone tried Liliana, the Last Hope in legacy? Im considering running 1 main over either a Mirris Guile or Toxic Deluge. Baleful Strix just stonewalls our Goyfs and Lilly just takes care of those pests, on top of making flipped delver unintimidating. Kills peezy, snaps, etc but does not kill Deathrites. Worst case scenario, buying back a goyf or stoneforge seems like gas. Thoughts?

[Mr. Safety]

I know that Deadguy players have been testing it out a bunch, and that's the closest to traditional junk you'll get for comparison. If you go a couple pages back from the end you'll see a bunch of discussion on it.

EDIT: page 289, about halfway down. Wiliken is one of the more successful Deadguy pilots, but it looks like several players are trying out Liliana TLH as a 1-2-of.

[Claymore]

I saw it on stream in a Grixis list recently (Grixis Dead's Shadow maybe)...think the Card Titan tournament.


----------



Why the Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library split? I've done it before in other decks...do you like it?

[KoDiamonds]

@Mr Safety thanks for digging that up! It looks like overall positive reviews. Ill give her a whirl in about a month to see

I think the real question is, is she maindeck worthy?.


@Claymore I originally had 2 Sylvan Libraries because theyre just straight gas. However, I ran into Leovold EVERYWHERE so I decided to cut a Library for a Guile to still get the card selection that the deck needs since it doesnt run Brainstorm. Its been pretty good but I feel like going down on a card might not be the best idea. Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Top all had the ability to replace itself while Guile does not. Im considering swapping it for a Last Hope (which at minimum brings a creature back) but Ill test it after the Modern GP.

[Mr. Safety]

I think her first ability is very good against small creatures, boosting loyalty while pinging off small dudes, or even just protecting her, is great. Her second ability is very good at grinding out fair matchups. Her ultimate doesn't really come into the picture really (got an extra zombie cuz of Tidehollow Sculler! lol...)

I think you'd want a minimum of 20 creatures in order to maindeck her, even x1. You don't want to miss on her ability and you don't have a way to take advantage of the self-mill (Lingering Souls maybe.)

My vote is sideboard, just too matchup-dependent.

[sdematt]

I think her first ability is very good against small creatures, boosting loyalty while pinging off small dudes, or even just protecting her, is great. Her second ability is very good at grinding out fair matchups. Her ultimate doesn't really come into the picture really (got an extra zombie cuz of Tidehollow Sculler! lol...)

I think you'd want a minimum of 20 creatures in order to maindeck her, even x1. You don't want to miss on her ability and you don't have a way to take advantage of the self-mill (Lingering Souls maybe.)

My vote is sideboard, just too matchup-dependent.

For reference, I run her as a 3-of in a deck with 3 Snapcasters and she's still gas. Try her before you diss her. That -2/-1 is worth money. As in, 3 Snapcasters ONLY.

She's solid, I like her more than Veil tbh. I'd run 2 Veil/2 Last Hope if I was in on running her.

[Mr. Safety]

For reference, I run her as a 3-of in a deck with 3 Snapcasters and she's still gas. Try her before you diss her. That -2/-1 is worth money. As in, 3 Snapcasters ONLY.

She's solid, I like her more than Veil tbh. I'd run 2 Veil/2 Last Hope if I was in on running her.

Good feedback...I hadn't heard a case for such strong efficacy. Is it the 2nd ability that feeds Snapcaster mage what makes her good? I can see obvious implications of 1/2 of a Thought Scour + Disentomb along with Snapcaster. Returning Snapcaster to hand is obviously incredible, but that doesn't answer whether it's good in the Rock. Obvious synergy is obvious.

I'd want to go all Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder on that shit though, for realz...

[tescrin]

I think he's just saying that so much of the field is x/1 that the repeatable mana-less removal (along side his real removal suite) makes her practically a lock. Note: He's running SCM as his only creature so you know he's packing a load of removal and following it with Jace; so YMMV on efficacy.

In his deck, she's an almost Punishing Fire equivalent where you'll want to make sure your removal suite is pretty full before banking on her. Also, since he's running Veil and counterspells, he's in a good spot for TNN where as you'll need to discard it, run -x/-x effects, still run Veil anyway, or pretend it doesn't exist instead.

[sdematt]

I think he's just saying that so much of the field is x/1 that the repeatable mana-less removal (along side his real removal suite) makes her practically a lock. Note: He's running SCM as his only creature so you know he's packing a load of removal and following it with Jace; so YMMV on efficacy.

In his deck, she's an almost Punishing Fire equivalent where you'll want to make sure your removal suite is pretty full before banking on her. Also, since he's running Veil and counterspells, he's in a good spot for TNN where as you'll need to discard it, run -x/-x effects, still run Veil anyway, or pretend it doesn't exist instead.

The deck also runs 2 Deed and 2 Deluge to clean up; 3 Push 2 Decay, 2 Edict.

Point being, I think she's good enough repeatable removal that goes into an ultimate, the second ability is almost just a bonus.

[KoDiamonds]

Wow, a lot of inactivity. Lets bump this thread up.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Here is my current 75. I recently cut Mirri's Guile for the 3rd Veil. Guile was nice, but at the end of the day, I think that slot needed to provide actual card advantage over card selection. I often found myself just not having enough gas even through topping every turn.

I currently have the 3rd veil but contemplating having Last Hope instead (which Im not 100% sold on yet). Ill probably start testing it now (been focusing on modern for the past GP).

Im also considering cutting the Choke from the board. With Miracles gone, Choke hitting the fair blue decks just doesnt seem impactful enough. Im considering resleeving up my ole friend Garruk Relentless or if Im feeling ambitious, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Garruk is easier to cast (Single G vs WW) so im leaning towards him.

Any thoughts on these changes?

[WaitWhat]

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd make an account.

Most of the time, I don't like 4cc cards in my legacy decks. At 3cc, I expect them to win me the game. 4 should make me breakfast too.
I don't think other Liliana, Gideon, or Garruk can do those. What about the 4th Bob though?

I'm also curious, since you're heavy in discard, is there a lot of combo in your area? If so, why no Lost Legacy? That card's been crazy good in games that I open shaman because I don't have a T1 discard.

[KoDiamonds]

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd make an account.

Most of the time, I don't like 4cc cards in my legacy decks. At 3cc, I expect them to win me the game. 4 should make me breakfast too.
I don't think other Liliana, Gideon, or Garruk can do those. What about the 4th Bob though?

I'm also curious, since you're heavy in discard, is there a lot of combo in your area? If so, why no Lost Legacy? That card's been crazy good in games that I open shaman because I don't have a T1 discard.
Appreciate your input!

1) I feel the same way about the 4cmc. However, its in the sideboard for a reason. Itll only come in grindy games where 4 mana is indeed inevitable. And to be fair, all those walkers definitely win the game. A resolved planeswalker is insane.

2) Im not a fan of Lost Legacy for 2 reasons. 3 mana is way too slow. You need your interaction to be 1 mana, AT MOST 2. Sure, its great on T2 via DRS but Id want my sideboard cards to be heavyhitting on their own without any help. Second, a lot of the combo decks arent all in on one plan. Storm has tendrils and a fair empty plan. Sneak and show has two interchangable pieces of their 2 card combo. Cant hit Lands for stage depths. Too much to name vs elves. Id honestly rather go for the 4th Hymn if I wanted a discard effect.

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, a lot of inactivity. Lets bump this thread up.

Im also considering cutting the Choke from the board. With Miracles gone, Choke hitting the fair blue decks just doesnt seem impactful enough. Im considering resleeving up my ole friend Garruk Relentless or if Im feeling ambitious, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Garruk is easier to cast (Single G vs WW) so im leaning towards him.

Any thoughts on these changes?

I support no Choke. I live and die in legacy on BGx decks and this is the first time I feel that Choke just isn't worth slots. It's ok in the Miracles matchup, but doesn't do enough really. I feel that boarding it against Delver/Czech pile is a trap, they just have too many ways to get in under it or deal with it once it lands. I'd rather add another Deluge, or even play something like Golgari Charm/Pithing Needle for some flexibility. Honestly, even Wasteland is kind of iffy in a 3-color deck (I noticed you are only playing 3.) It works great if you start on DRS > disruption > Wasteland, then Bob/Library draw you into Wastelands. It's the nuts, but it has to fall in line fairly perfectly. Otherwise I think it's just more important to play your high-value spells. If you're inclined to play 4x Wasteland I would want at least 1x Vindicate as well, just because once you're committed to killing lands for tempo it gets better. Not saying to do that, just how I would play it if I were dedicated to 4x Wasteland.

I also support beefier threats in the sideboard for grindier matchups. Garruk Relentless is very good against the slower decks of the format, and provides some really great inevitability alongside Lingering Souls. Gideon is alright, but it doesn't provide the same flexibility. Garruk makes a 2/2 or it can deal with something like a Young Pyromancer, then flip immediately. I also feel Bitterblossom wouldn't be a bad idea in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I also really like making room for another Library, main or side. I always felt my best chances of winning grindy matchups with this deck was with Library and Souls.

Not sure how many stompy variants you face, but I feel like Pernicious Deed is worth a slot in the board for those matchups specifically. It gets by Chalice/Trinisphere and then takes all that work they put into locking you right down the drain. Slow, but in those matchups (with the exception of Eldrazi) you usually have at least a few turns where they just pass and do nothing without pressure.

With the format being on the 'fair' side lately, I think this deck is positioned well.

[Warden]

I have mixed feelings on Choke. While Miracles is less of a problem (theoretically how the meta is shifting), competitive stuff in the deeper rounds of a tournament tend to have blue. Let’s also not detract from the grit of a real match: answer choke or have trouble playing literally anything else. Sure, Czech could have decay. Miracles could burn their Judgement on it. But unless they actually have those cards in hand, you have a bomb for 3 mana that distorts the matchup in your favor.
If choke still isn’t your thing, think about Thalia 2.0. Holy shit that card is backbreaking and never expected. W2 is definitely playable on the manabase. For better or worse she has legs. Acts as a pseudo choke against greedy manabases (as opposed to just islands). She also taps down opposing creatures so racing towards the finish should be better.

[CptHaddock]

I support no Choke. I live and die in legacy on BGx decks and this is the first time I feel that Choke just isn't worth slots. It's ok in the Miracles matchup, but doesn't do enough really. I feel that boarding it against Delver/Czech pile is a trap, they just have too many ways to get in under it or deal with it once it lands. I'd rather add another Deluge, or even play something like Golgari Charm/Pithing Needle for some flexibility. Honestly, even Wasteland is kind of iffy in a 3-color deck (I noticed you are only playing 3.) It works great if you start on DRS > disruption > Wasteland, then Bob/Library draw you into Wastelands. It's the nuts, but it has to fall in line fairly perfectly. Otherwise I think it's just more important to play your high-value spells. If you're inclined to play 4x Wasteland I would want at least 1x Vindicate as well, just because once you're committed to killing lands for tempo it gets better. Not saying to do that, just how I would play it if I were dedicated to 4x Wasteland.

I also support beefier threats in the sideboard for grindier matchups. Garruk Relentless is very good against the slower decks of the format, and provides some really great inevitability alongside Lingering Souls. Gideon is alright, but it doesn't provide the same flexibility. Garruk makes a 2/2 or it can deal with something like a Young Pyromancer, then flip immediately. I also feel Bitterblossom wouldn't be a bad idea in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I also really like making room for another Library, main or side. I always felt my best chances of winning grindy matchups with this deck was with Library and Souls.

Not sure how many stompy variants you face, but I feel like Pernicious Deed is worth a slot in the board for those matchups specifically. It gets by Chalice/Trinisphere and then takes all that work they put into locking you right down the drain. Slow, but in those matchups (with the exception of Eldrazi) you usually have at least a few turns where they just pass and do nothing without pressure.

With the format being on the 'fair' side lately, I think this deck is positioned well.

I agree with everything here except for the argument for Garruk/Gideon. I've found those cards to be really mediocre in almost every matchup that you want them for. If anything i'd recommend doubling up on Liliana, the Last Hope. She's a card that you can bring in both against delver as a removal spell/life gainer and against midrange/control as a way to kill strixes and threaten to end the game with her ultimate.



If choke still isn’t your thing, think about Thalia 2.0. Holy shit that card is backbreaking and never expected. W2 is definitely playable on the manabase. For better or worse she has legs. Acts as a pseudo choke against greedy manabases (as opposed to just islands). She also taps down opposing creatures so racing towards the finish should be better.

Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

[KoDiamonds]

Love the discussion guys.

Choke: I agree, ever since Miracles lost Top, Choke is so much less effective. Very much a trap card vs Czech Pile. I feel like our heavyhitting sideboard cards definitely need to impact the board, not get cute and try to get free wins (which dropped dramatically with Choke once Top got banned). I definitely think that slot should go along with our gameplan of card advantage/board presence.

Garruk: How has he been performing for everyone? I had him pre--Top ban and was stellar vs Miracles. Now however, he seems great and bad at the same time. 4 mana is a lot vs Death and Taxes. Although, killing a Thalia and churning out deathtouchers seems insane. Grixis Delver seems slow but when it gets to a grindy, it seems amazing. Seems solid vs Czech Pile. Am I correct with this assessment? What other matchups do you board it in?

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with everything here except for the argument for Garruk/Gideon. I've found those cards to be really mediocre in almost every matchup that you want them for. If anything i'd recommend doubling up on Liliana, the Last Hope. She's a card that you can bring in both against delver as a removal spell/life gainer and against midrange/control as a way to kill strixes and threaten to end the game with her ultimate.

I wouldn't board more than 1 Garruk, and I wouldn't use Gideon at all. In the mid-range matchups I think the repeatable effect of making threats is really good. It's been a while since I tried Garruk, maybe it's not as good anymore. I agree that Liliana TLH is likely just better, simply based on mana efficiency. Ticking up while killing stuff is really nice. If I wasn't clear, I think the best option is to deeper into more copies of Library. The individual cards this deck plays are so good on their own that just getting more of them with Bob/Library seems correct.

EDIT: I actually really liked Treetop Village against Miracles when Top was legal. It was hard for them to always hold up Swords/Terminus for the land after having to pop them off for Goyf/Bob/Souls. The risk is pretty low if you only play 1-2 copies. More Libraries helps you find them. Yes they bring in Blood Moon, but it seems like Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/discard can usually deal with that along with fetching basics.


Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

Was this in reference to Thalia, Heretic Cathar?

[CptHaddock]

I wouldn't board more than 1 Garruk, and I wouldn't use Gideon at all. In the mid-range matchups I think the repeatable effect of making threats is really good. It's been a while since I tried Garruk, maybe it's not as good anymore. I agree that Liliana TLH is likely just better, simply based on mana efficiency. Ticking up while killing stuff is really nice. If I wasn't clear, I think the best option is to deeper into more copies of Library. The individual cards this deck plays are so good on their own that just getting more of them with Bob/Library seems correct.

EDIT: I actually really liked Treetop Village against Miracles when Top was legal. It was hard for them to always hold up Swords/Terminus for the land after having to pop them off for Goyf/Bob/Souls. The risk is pretty low if you only play 1-2 copies. More Libraries helps you find them. Yes they bring in Blood Moon, but it seems like Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/discard can usually deal with that along with fetching basics.


For sure, I was just giving my personal opinion on Garruk/Gideon. I have this very bad tendency to use my Garruk extremely aggressively, and I think that is why I don't like him that much. I've been kind of mixed on village, I like it in a pure BG deck but I think that with Junk the manabase gets a little wonky. You absolutely need a maindeck hard answer to JTMS like vindicate or pulse.

What does your list look like now?



Was this in reference to Thalia, Heretic Cathar?

Yes

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't played the deck in months, but if I sleeved it up now (and I might, I have a tournament coming up in February) I would play this 75:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Vindicate
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pithing Needle

[Warden]

...Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

There's really no need for this kind of tone. I've played Maverick and Rock for years. Test the recommendation before you knock it.

[Mr. Safety]

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.

I've been thinking about splashing Mom in here again...the metagame is really fair ATM and Mom busts fair matchups open. This was my theoretical list before I got distracted with other projects:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
usual stuff


Alternatively I was thinking of going uber tempo and play Sinkholes.

4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

4x Wasteland
7x Fetch
4x Duals
4x Basic
3x utility lands

It doesn't seem bad, but it could also be terrible in the current metagame. I want to splash Mana Tithe so badly, the jank-loving spirit is strong...

[CptHaddock]

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.


This is exactly the problem with THC. If we're comparing her with creatures in that slot, she's just worse than any of the playable "creatures" in that spot. Knight is a creature that can equally punish manabases, allows you to run a land toolbox and eventually turns into a giant beater. Lingering souls is basically 2 cards in 1 and allows you to commit to the board while still having a backup plan. Minus some extremely fringe metagame cases I don't think any of the older rock staples are playable anymore. The basic point is that you want 3+ drops to get more powerful as the game goes on, not less.

[mistercakes]

i think you have the ask the question, what problem is this creature slot trying to solve?

[damionblackgear]

...
Alternatively I was thinking of going uber tempo and play Sinkholes.

4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

4x Wasteland
7x Fetch
4x Duals
4x Basic
3x utility lands

It doesn't seem bad, but it could also be terrible in the current metagame. I want to splash Mana Tithe so badly, the jank-loving spirit is strong...

I love Eva Green too! The speed... but it always got weird(slow) when you introduced another color.

I also think it would be a good idea to focus on another archetype modes (aggro, tempo, control, etc), instead trying to force the mid-ranged version that didn't really do too well in the past. The other BGx decks out-fairing the standard lists for a while now and more things are being made for them... not so much us anymore. (they've also go more hands to test but that's another issue all together)

I've also been wondering, if troll Acetic would be a better option for the 3cc slot. It's been souls for a while but that forces us to keep the SFM + equipment. It'd free up about 8 slots to adjust your style... room for tithe :wink:

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I've toyed with tempo versions before, even going as deep as Nimble Mongoose. Without the cantrips that falls flat though. I really think Mana Tithe could do some serious damage alongside Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland. I would probably need another library, probably play that over the loam.

I'll have to test it. The Mom version seems very good as well, just because Mom allows for mid-range matchups to grind easier.

[CptHaddock]

I don't think that sinkhole is very good right now because DRS is a card. It's just not worth it to invest 2 mana to sinkhole your opponent when it's so easy for them to recover just on the top of DRS. I tried playing a bunch of eva green in the metagame and it just felt horrible. You win the delver matchups because you are the mono removal spell deck, but absolutely slaughtered by any midrange/control deck. I actually think that the SFM engine is really powerful right now and it's one of the best things you can be doing in a rock deck. It gives you both a way to stabilize games and allows you to grind with either batterskull or sofai.

I've been playing a more DGA style of Rock deck and it's been pretty decent. I still like DGA a little more but having goyf as a clock has been stellar. I think that a lot of the problems that rock has right now is that it plays fairly almost to a point of a fault. While this is fine for our blue rocking playing amigos since their cantrips can find whatever they are looking for long game we really don't have that luxury. So to counteract some of that i've thrown in chrome moxes to give me a tempo boost in some draws, it's not ideal since cards like goyf don't do anything turn 1 but powering out anything else is excellent.

2 Bayou
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Scrubland
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Confidant
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls
1 Plains
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
1 Forest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Palace Jailer

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fatal Push
2 Containment Priest
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[KoDiamonds]

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.

I've been thinking about splashing Mom in here again...the metagame is really fair ATM and Mom busts fair matchups open. This was my theoretical list before I got distracted with other projects:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
usual stuff

Youre opting for Mom + Scullers instead of a stoneforge mystic package, which I dont think is worth it IMO.

[KoDiamonds]

Initial thoughts on Last Hope have been very positive. Drew her vs Aluren and just picked off Strixes, Recruiters, shrunk Shardless. Definitely keeping her over the 3rd veil for now.

Garruk Relentless Im still iffy about. Havent drawn him yet and never really reached a boardstate where I really wanted him either. Jury is still out for Garruk.

[KoDiamonds]

To continue with Garruk, do people think Gideon is better? Still churns out 2/2s but can make an emblem to pump spirits, beats with a fast clock, and can survive a Truename/Delver hit.

Elspeth is also another option, but 1/1s seem mediocre. On the otherhand, Serras Embrace a turn is strong.

WW2 seems rough to cast though, which makes me lean towards Garruk.

[Mr. Safety]

Youre opting for Mom + Scullers instead of a stoneforge mystic package, which I dont think is worth it IMO.

Probably not, I agree. It's a way for me to play my pet card (Sculler) and have it be good with Mom instead of just a small tempo swing. Sculler being an artifact feeds Tarmogoyfs, but it's likely not ideal. It really helps in the combo matchups, that's for sure, and with Mom it wouldn't be dead against fair/removal heavy decks. I'll probably just stick to SFM x3/Jitte/Bskull. I don't have Sword of Fire and Ice, but I don't think it's that crucial. The other list I mentioned is what I would take to a tournament tomorrow, the Mom/Sculler idea is just for testing.

How has Chrome Mox been? I feel like all of our cards are good enough that getting a Mox isn't enough of an exchange. An extra Bob/SFM is fine to pitch, but I can't imagine the card loss being worth the tempo boost. What would we play t1 for 2 mana that would be worth it? Hymn to Tourach? Dark Confidant? I'm skeptical. Confidant is the best option, or Sylvan Library, so you could recoup the card loss. Only playing 2 seems safe enough, but it's definitely worse than even a land in the late game.

Here is what I am debating playing in February. I'm not sure I have combo covered well enough out of the board, and I'm still iffy on the slots left open for Choke. It just feels weird to *not* play Choke in the board, honestly. I have been in favor of ZPersecution over Golgari Charm in a deck with Lingering Souls, but I can see the value of the enchantment removal/regenerate functions.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Vindicate

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library
2x open

[CptHaddock]

How has Chrome Mox been? I feel like all of our cards are good enough that getting a Mox isn't enough of an exchange. An extra Bob/SFM is fine to pitch, but I can't imagine the card loss being worth the tempo boost. What would we play t1 for 2 mana that would be worth it? Hymn to Tourach? Dark Confidant? I'm skeptical. Confidant is the best option, or Sylvan Library, so you could recoup the card loss. Only playing 2 seems safe enough, but it's definitely worse than even a land in the late game.


I've really liked it, although I mostly end up pitching Goyfs, extra discard or something kind of bad in the matchup. My list is also modeled a little more after a DGA than your traditional rock list. I'm very much a big fan of small tempo boosts in certain matchups. Those chrome moxes really should be mox diamonds, but i'm not really sure what to cut in order to add the lands needed to support 1-2 mox diamonds.

[Mr. Safety]

I've really liked it, although I mostly end up pitching Goyfs, extra discard or something kind of bad in the matchup. My list is also modeled a little more after a DGA than your traditional rock list. I'm very much a big fan of small tempo boosts in certain matchups. Those chrome moxes really should be mox diamonds, but i'm not really sure what to cut in order to add the lands needed to support 1-2 mox diamonds.

I've always been on the DGA side of the spectrum as well, which is where I originally got the Scullers. Before I had my set of Goyfs I was playing 4x Sculler in their place, and I would curve Thoughtseize into Sculler into Hymn and wreck a lot of decks (this was just around the time Deathrite Shaman was printed.) Old data is no way to build a current deck though. The scullers could become a 3rd Hymn and a 2nd Library main. It's probably correct to do that, honestly, I just love Sculler! I'm not a pro player, so fun-factor plays more into my card choices than it probably should.

Mox Diamond would only really be good if you were also dedicated to some sort of Loam synergy. Aggro-loam is a real deck, and it's a great way to take advantage of the fast mana MDiamond can give you. In this sort of 'good stuff Junk/DGA' style of deck I feel that all of the cards need to really pull their weight in a big way, and just playing the spells that do the best job is the way to do that. Mox speeds it up, but at what expense? I don't even know what I'd cut for 1 Chrome Mox, let alone 2 copies. Dark Confidant is the worst in multiples...but the best thing to do is t1 Dark Confidant.

Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

[KoDiamonds]

Here is what I am debating playing in February. I'm not sure I have combo covered well enough out of the board, and I'm still iffy on the slots left open for Choke. It just feels weird to *not* play Choke in the board, honestly. I have been in favor of ZPersecution over Golgari Charm in a deck with Lingering Souls, but I can see the value of the enchantment removal/regenerate functions.

After sleeping on it, I may be back on the Choke train. Its probably the card thats most versatile in all the grindy Blue Matchups (since I feel like 4 mana walkers arent great in the Delver matchup, while I like Choke).


Im a huge proponent for Zealous Persecution. Golgari Charm not only kills your spirits, but Bobs as well. ZP also increases your clock in matchups like storm where it provides double duty (instead of just being an out to Empty).




Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

There was a discussion about the # of SFMs quite a few pages back when I started playing the deck. I dont remember the exact points, but I personally tweaked with the numbers and like 3. 4 just felt too much and 2 didnt feel enough. 3 was the happy medium IMO.

The 2nd Stoneforge always feels a little lackluster compared to the first some reason (similar to Bob), which is why both are 3 ofs in my personal list.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think I will ever play less than 4 Confidants, but that's because I have an unhealthy fetish for Cabal Therapy. Extra Bobs are fantastic at doubling up Therapy.

My experience with Choke is that it is incredible against Stoneblade decks and Miracles, but just average against Delver/Bug Leovold/Czech Pile. The access to Abrupt Decay in those decks makes it a little less ideal. I do however still like it against Grixis Delver, which really only plays "islands." I'll probably board Choke, lol. The caliber of players at my LGS is fairly high as well, meaning that they are good at playing around Choke as well. Data may be skewed, not giving me a good idea against the average player.

[CptHaddock]

I've always been on the DGA side of the spectrum as well, which is where I originally got the Scullers. Before I had my set of Goyfs I was playing 4x Sculler in their place, and I would curve Thoughtseize into Sculler into Hymn and wreck a lot of decks (this was just around the time Deathrite Shaman was printed.) Old data is no way to build a current deck though. The scullers could become a 3rd Hymn and a 2nd Library main. It's probably correct to do that, honestly, I just love Sculler! I'm not a pro player, so fun-factor plays more into my card choices than it probably should.

Mox Diamond would only really be good if you were also dedicated to some sort of Loam synergy. Aggro-loam is a real deck, and it's a great way to take advantage of the fast mana MDiamond can give you. In this sort of 'good stuff Junk/DGA' style of deck I feel that all of the cards need to really pull their weight in a big way, and just playing the spells that do the best job is the way to do that. Mox speeds it up, but at what expense? I don't even know what I'd cut for 1 Chrome Mox, let alone 2 copies. Dark Confidant is the worst in multiples...but the best thing to do is t1 Dark Confidant.

Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

I tried sculler in my initial DGA builds ages and absolutely hated them. I feel like they often tempt you into plays where you get blown out by removal spells against fair decks. They're very good against combo since it's basically a clock + disruption all in 1. I feel like with the way the format is right now, a 2/2 take the opponent's removal spell from their hand isn't very good.

Really? I love confidant i'll cast one even on some sketch life total, on occasion you get unlucky with hits but on average you're making taking like 1-2 off them. The tempo plays that you are getting from chrome mox are basically SFM, Confidant, Hymn or Double Discard. Really the idea is just abusing fast mana to some degree. I think that a lot of the problems that I have had with this deck and DGA are with hands that don't really abuse any mechanics. The ones where I go turn 1 discard, turn 2 SFM/Confidant just don't cut it anymore.

I don't have any math or anything behind this but 3 copies has been fine for me. I just copy Wilkin's DGA lists and do less well than him. :cool:


I don't think I will ever play less than 4 Confidants, but that's because I have an unhealthy fetish for Cabal Therapy. Extra Bobs are fantastic at doubling up Therapy.


I agree Confidant is legitimately one of the best cards in the game. If you're looking for a card that has a high impact against fair blue decks i'd recommend palace jailer. That card does a lot of what rock wants their cards to be doing as well.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree on Sculler's usefulness in the format ATM. I will just be jamming more Hymns/Decays. I'll hold onto the Scullers for a more combo-heavy metagame. Honestly, the only thing slightly keeping me from jamming this deck in a February tournament is the fact that I feel the Punishing/Groves engine is so good right now. Maybe Bob/Library are enough to just feed more goodies and I don't need the repeatable engine.

Based on your feedback, I'm going to splash in 1x Chrome Mox, probably in place of a Lingering Souls. The deck naturally falls into a 2-mana jam so turning those 2-drops into essentially 1-drops seems very good.

So:

-2 Sculler
-1 Lingering Souls

+1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Chrome Mox

EDIT:

Brandon Chang's recent list, he got top 16 at a CFB 4K

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313616&f=LE

[KoDiamonds]

Brandon Chang's recent list, he got top 16 at a CFB 4K

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313616&f=LE
Wahoo! Abzan showing!

I really like his configuration of discard. Having 3 Thoughtseize + 3 Hymns main with a 4th Hymn in the side. Seems better than my configuration of 4 Thoughtseize 3 Hymn main. Im going to cut Chains and Choke for a 4th Hymn. Gideon will probably fill the last slot but Ill probably play with that particular 75th card.

Heres my current list that I will be testing.
Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Back up to 2 Librarys since that card just wins games for us.

The Gideon slot is really up in the air for me. I really want the slot to be something for grindy games, INCLUDING delver. Bitterblossom is an option but with Bobs and Librarys, having yet another source of lifeloss seems dangerous.

Tireless Tracker is cute but seems slow.

A 4th Lingering Souls seems solid, but boring. Id love some ideas, and I will report back with more matchup results.

Ps: Last Hope has been stellar.

[Mr. Safety]

My list is very similar. Library had always been the nuts for me. I think 3 souls is fine, but I will never register a rock deck with less than 4 targeted discard.

I keep trying to squeeze in a vindicate, but I want 3x abrupt decay and 4x swords.

I'm back on choke, it's still one of the best blowouts against blue. I reeeeeeaaallly want to get scavenging ooze into my sideboard, but just no room. Testing engineered explosives, possibly Deed again if I keep running into Young Pyromancer (card is hard to beat.)

I also think that 4-mana pw's are kind of a waste of sideboard space. I just don't think singletons will ever make a significant impact in a 5+ round tournament. Other singletons are ways to augment an already established plan in the main.

I'll post my list in a little while, for reference.

EDIT:
4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Goyf
3x SFM

3x Thoughtseize
1x Therapy
3x Hymn
3x Decay
4x StP
1x Jitte
1x Bskull
3x souls
2x Lili of the Veil
2x Library

4x Waste
4x verdant catacombs
3x Windswept heath
1x marsh Flats
2x Scrub
1x bayou
1x Savannah
1x karakas
1x urborg
2x swamp
1x Plains
1x forest

side
2x surgical
2x canonist
1x containment priest
2x choke
2x Pithing Needle
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Zealous Persecution

Still want to somehow get Teeg in there, testing EE over another Deluge, kind of want a Nihil Spellbomb in there over a Needle but I think Sneak/Show will be out in full force at my next tournament. Needles are good against them. Again, I think Scooze could really great, possibly breaking open mid-range mirrors and having inevitability against decks like Dredge/Reanimator.

I welcome your thoughts on my list, more than willing to adjust if the argument is sound. I ended up leaving Mox out...it's just too low-impact where I only have 1, and the tradeoff in grindy mathups is just too risky (in my humble opinion.) Too many ways to build this thing!

[KoDiamonds]

Solid 75.

Choke has always felt a little underwelming so let me know once you start testing how it feels.

I would up the number of Containment Priests to 2 if youre expecting a lot of S&S. Ive liked 2 personally.

[Mr. Safety]

If I don't play Choke, what do you recommend? I did some gauntlet testing (not real matchups) and it was very good against Grixis Delver. It has always pulled its weight against miracles (2 locals play the new version.)

I have typically played a Loam in my sideboard, it generally helps with grinding matchups. I could easily see a 2nd Priest, I only have 1 but it's easy to nab another before the tournament on the 17th happens. Alternatively I could just jam a pair of Scooze, which I want to get in there anyways. I am also thinking of boarding in Tidehollow Sculler x2, which is incredible against the combo matchups (rock is typically weak to Storm.)

I am going to stick to 2x Deluge over the Explosives...it's just more efficient in most cases.

So my board is looking like this:

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Open (Choke, Scooze, Sculler, Loam, Suggestions?)

I feel like there is very little to bring in against the blue matchups. Maybe that's fine. Combo has always been a concern like Storm and S&T, sometimes burn gives the deck trouble. I think DRS/Jitte/Bskull in the main are pretty great at grinding out burn, and Tarmgoyf races very nicely. Needle/Priest/Extraction for S&T, Canonist/Surgical/Sculler for Storm (if I go sculler.)

What's your thinking on including Grafdigger's Cage? Reanimator/Storm/GSZ?

[KoDiamonds]

Whats better than Choke? Thats been my mission the past month. Maybe that slot should be dedicated to nonblue decks if Choke is the best we can do. Im probably back on the Choke Train for now.

I like Deluge a ton. Dealing with TrueName/Leovold/sweeping up pesky Strixes/etc, all for 3 mana (compared to 4-6mana) puts it over the top.

Cage is mainly for all the reanimator online on top of being great vs elves (GSZ/NO). I like 1 in the board. Vs storm you have to watch out. TES is less reliant on Past in Flames so I dont even board it in in that matchup.

Burn is really hit/miss. The way our deck is configured, its hard to board out all the bad cards in the matchup. Going DRS->Hymn->goyf wins games but having lingering souls, SOFI, bobs in hand make it awkward.

For the last 2 slots, id consider a Choke, a Surgical, or a Hymn. Dont think you can go wrong with any combination of 2/3. Dont feel like you arent bringing in a lot vs blue decks since you dont need to. Were already favored. Our board should honestly be mostly dedicated to combo since we can beat blue decks main alone.

[Mr. Safety]

Going with Choke or Sculler. I lean towards Sculler, it's very good in some matchups, even the blue ones because it causes them to expend more reaources.

[KoDiamonds]

Another option is possibly Tireless Tracker. But 22 lands makes me reluctant...

@Mr Safety, between the 2, Id much prefer Choke. The ceiling in Choke is much higher, which is what I want from my sideboard cards.

[Mr. Safety]

You're probably right. I would feel weird not having them anyways. Choke it is.

Tireless Tracker I think would need a minimum of 24 lands, and it does a lot of great work with Knight of the Reliquary. More of a Maverick card I think.

[damionblackgear]

On Choke - I don't think Choke is good right now. Most of the format is pretty successfully planning to play around/through it. I would dedicate the spots to something else entirely. What that is, is dependent on what's been giving you issue in your meta.

Why I'm actually posting... I'm looking for feedback on another card Hidden Stockpile.

Safety and I have been discussing this card behind the scenes but I wanted to get idea(s) from other people about it. He's been helping it grow on me after I realized I misread it. I still need to test but this is the last list I shared with him to give you all some ideas.


1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Hidden Stockpile
1 Pernicious Deed

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (currently 14 cards)

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Blood Moon
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Lost Legacy

Sidenote on the list, I haven't adjusted the land-base since removing Knight of the Reliquary.

[Mr. Safety]

I played in a 1k today, came in 16th out of 55 players. I had a ton of fun, really liked the decklist I played, and i'll get a tournament report in soon, probably tomorrow.

[KoDiamonds]

Just 5-0d another league!
Here's the link:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-02-17

First on the page!
Usual decklist

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution


Round 1 vs. Lands (2-0)
Game 1: Opponent had Grove, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter Port, Exploration, and Loam. I don't know how I won this game. Tarmogoyf got really big and was such a fast clock. My opponent had to Crop Rotate for a Glacial Chasm. Deathrite eventually locked it up.
Game 2: I surgicalled an early Punishing Fire and I stuck a Bob + Deathrite. He never drew loam and I outgrinded him with Bobs.

Round 2 vs. Grixis Delver (2-0)
Game 1: I casted two sets of Lingering Souls. That card literally owns this matchup.
Game 2: I didn't get tempoed out and eventually we exchanged resources into the midgame. Late game draws of lingering souls and Sylvan library locked things up.

Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver (2-1)
Game 1: This game I definitely got tempod out. I had an interesting line though. Opponent had 2 cards in hand, tapped out, with a lone Gurmag Angler in play. I have a Scrubland and a Bayou in play. My cards are Sylvan Library, Hymn, Sword of F&I, Stoneforge, and Lingering Souls. I am at 18 life.
I opted to Hymn my opponent. My thought process was I wanted to make sure Angler was the only threat I had to deal with, in case he had something in hand. If my opponent had Force or Daze, Id rather have my Hymn dazed than the Library. I think this play won me the game. He discarded Ponder and Spell Pierce. I slammed Library next turn, and dug a swords 3 cards deep. Stabilized at 4 life. Opponent scooped
Game 2: This is the only game I actually drew choke. Opponent had 5 cards in hand, tapped out. I got greedy and slammed it on turn 3, it got dazed. I think it was correct to jam the other three 2-drops in my hand but I got too excited.
We traded resources and eventually my opponent had a Gurmag Angler and a flipped Delver that I could not answer.
Game 3: Tarmogoyf laid the beatdown all the way down to 3 life. The boardstate ended up being me having multiple goyfs and an active Liliana. Opponent had two Pyromancers and plenty tokens. Opponent couldn't really attack through profitably. Eventually I topdecked a Deathrite and my opponent scooped to a lethal drain.

Round 4 vs. BR??? (2-0)
Game 1: Not sure what this deck is. It ran discard spells, young pyromancer, and blood moon. We exchanged discard spells. I luckily had a Basic Swamp that I fetched for and naturally drew a basic plains. Casted Bob, Lingering Souls, and flashed it back while my opponent did nothing but cast a Blood Moon.
Game 2: Fetched around Blood moon. Casted Lingering Souls and equipped a Jitte that was in my opener. The Jitte locked out my opponent while my basic land manabase was unimpeded.

Round 5 vs . Lands (2-1)
Game 1: Here we go. For all the Marbles. Lost the die roll. Opponent went Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Diamond Discarding Tabernacle, Gambled, Discarded Life from the Loam, Cast Manabond, played Thicket, discarded Punishing Fire. Literally the nut draw.
4-1 again? :( I just scooped to conceal what I was on.
Game 2: Opponent went turn 1 gamble for I assume Loam. However, my opponent didn't hit a way to deal with Tarmogoyf. I ended up suiting it up with a SoFI and I stole this game.
Game 3: I surgicalled a key Life from the Loam. Opponent didn't have a Punishing Fire so I casted Lingering Souls, suited it up with a Sword. Landed a Library and drew more Surgicals and more wastelands. Won in a couple turns.

There it is! 5-0!

Overall, I am happy with 74/75. I am playing in a team event at my LGS and I'll probably keep the same 75.
The slot in question that I have second thoughts about is Choke. I felt like if I had been more patient and slammed a two drop in round 3, Choke would have sealed the game up if I had just waited to draw a 4th land, and I would have won that game. Another option is a 4th Lingering Souls which I think is probably the more disciplined deckbuilding decision.



I typed the above before today's legacy event. We had a team event today and I was the legacy player. Sadly, I went 1-2.
Round 1 vs. Storm (0-2)
Game 1: Opponent had turn 2 kill. I was sad.
Game 2: I mulliganed. My 6 was 3 lands, Deathrite, Goyf, Dark Confidant. This is a mulligan right? I feel like I need some hand disruption to even have a chance.
My 5 was two hymns, decay, land, goyf. I needed a land in the first two draw steps for me to have a chance. I did not and I lost. If I had a black source, I'm 99% sure I'd win this game.

Round 2 vs. Elves (1-2)
Game 1: I thoughtseized, Hymned, decayed, swords his whole board. He had nothing. However, my first 5 drawsteps were lands, I flooded, and my opponent drew more action and I lost.
Game 2: I stabilized with Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist, and Jitte equip. Won after taking me 30 minutes to stabilize the board.
Game 3: We went to time and my opponent drew a Glimpse and chained into 3 more glimpses and Hoffed me on Turn 4 of turns.

Round 3 vs. Czech Pile (2-0)
Game 1: I drew all four goyfs and a Lingering Souls. Opponent's Deluge killing my 4 spirits and goyf took care of my first wave of threats, but an extra pair of goyfs + Liliana last hope killing pesky threats got there.
Game 2: Jittes a pair of Deathrites and Choke choked him out. So glad I had Choke. It just shut the door on my opponent.

Overall, I felt like today was just bad variance. Mulliganed into oblivion Round 1 game 2 and drew horribly game 1 round 2. I never felt out of it however. Just unfortunate the cards didn't fall my way in paper. Choke definitely feels fine as a 1 of in the board. If they spend a Decay on it, it makes my Sword, Jitte, Sylvan Library, Lilly, etc. unmolested. That's how I felt. Choke just closes the door fast and requires two Decays. Good luck.

Last Hope is also stellar. I love the 1 of along with the 2 Lillys. Overall, I feel 100% about my 75/75. If I had a Legacy GP tomorrow, I'd register this 75 confidently.


@Mr. Safety: Looking forward to your report! Please post the 75 you played with and what you would change as well.

[Mr. Safety]

So first off, let me tell you, in the words of a Maine Legacy Lands player acquaintance, "the Maine legacy scene is cancer!" With that out of the way I played 6 rounds facing, in order: Burn, Enchantress, Esper Stoneblade, TES, Punishing Maverick, New Miracles. My losses were to Burn in 3 and Punishing Maverick 0-2 (really need to work on this matchup!) Here was my 75 (yes, fuck it all, I played Tidehollow Sculler and it was great!)

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
2x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pithing Needle
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Containment Priest
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Choke


Reasons for the Scullers: wide open metagame, it's excellent against fringe combo decks that need specific cards, and it's great against Show and Tell (which I expected to face, and there was at least 3-4 S&T players in the room.) For the sideboard I dropped a Maelstrom Pulse for a Spellbomb at the last minute because there is always a few dredge players, and I wasn't disappointed, but I didn't face them either. A Manaless Dredge player made top 8. Deluge and Persecution were for True-Name and Elves. Choke justified it's inclusion by blowing out Miracles in my 6th round, which clinched my spot at 16th.

R1 - Burn (LOSS, 1-2)
Game 1 I naturally draw a Jitte, equip to a Deathrite to attack and get counters and it bails me out. I end the game at 13 life. G2 I get a t2 Hymn but he draws a ton of Goblin Guides/Swiftspears, top-decks a Lava Spike, attacks with a Guide and 3 Swiftspears and takes me from 14 down to 3 in one turn. I didn't have Deluge, and I couldn't use it anyways, so we go to g3 which goes really long but I don't get anything that can stabilize my life total. I land a Mystic and hedge against a removal by getting a Bskull, and I'm only on 2 lands. He bolts the mystic and I think I'm done. I top deck my two scullers over the next 4 turns and I'm attacking for 4 and it's a very close race. He's at 1, I'm at 2, he topdecks Barbarian Ring FTW. The cookie crumbles, boo.

R2 - Enchantress (WIN, 2-1)
Game 1 I go Deathrite into a t2 Liliana, rip his hand with Hymn the following turn and he's 4 cards down and I land a Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf. Fast, satisfying game. G2 he gets 3 draw engines going and a t0 Leyline of Sanctity, making 3 cards in my opener obsolete. He lands Solitary Confinement and I concede so I can have time to win g3, which I do in rare fashion. I mulligan to 6 but that 6 is very good with a Wasteland and Surgical Extraction for his Serra's Sanctum. It makes for a slow start for my development, but I have Lingering Souls and I draw into several Dark Confidants that outpace his Journey to Nowhere's and I get there fairly easily. Fringe matchup, but I won g3 even with 2 Leyline of Sanctity's on the table.

R3 - Esper Deathblade (WIN, 1-0)
Talk about a grindfest, this really tested my patience. It wasn't annoying because it was a grindy match but because my opponent is fucking slow as death. He's known as a good player in the local Magic scene, but the two times I've faced him he takes way too long to make decisions. I am mildly gratified that his slow play punished him so severely because I win G1 and we only have 15 minutes left in the round to do G2-3. I try not to take forever sideboarding because I don't want to mirror my opponent's pace, but I'm fairly certain I will lock this match up 1-0. The first game goes back and forth with him playing Probes and Therapies, Brainstorms, lands 2 Monestary Mentors and 2 Mystics and a Batterskull over the game. I also land a Mystic, get Jitte, 3 Tarmogoyfs, a Dark Confidant, a Sculler, and finally push the game over the edge with Lingering Souls. He was using flip-Jace, which was interesting, but it had almost no effect on g2 because we are so short on time. He also didn't draw into very many Shamans, and I was always the first to get Shaman active (ripping all the lands.)

R4 - TES (WIN 2-1)
Game 1 He goes turn 1 Underground Sea, Duress, takes my Hymn to Tourach. I Wasteland him on my t1 and he doesn't have any other lands. It buys me literally 6 turns to beat him. He plays a Lotus Petal into Brainstorm for lands, whiffs, and he's locked out for another 2 turns. Sculler, Bob, Library, Liliana, Tarmogyf, GG. Game 2 he does well, gets a couple good Ponders in and goes off t4 and Tendril's me for 36. *shrug*, Whatever. G3 I mulligan down to 5, but it's a hot 5. Urborg, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Ethersworn Canonist, Dark Confidant. I only need 1 land and he's going to have a very tough time winning. Literally any land is live in my deck to cast one of those 2 drops, and Thoughtseize there to buy me time. I take LED t1, and see his risky keep of all mana and no business. He rips a Ponder, but I get a t3 Canonist, t4 Hymn, t5 Confidant, and close the game out with Sculler/Bob beats with active Library. Usually a tough matchup, but I am reminded very clearly on how to pilot Rock to victory: chain disruption into a threat. I start thinking about Batterskull in my maindeck and I'm not sure I want it anymore. It's slower than a Tarmogoyf, the lifegain is often not needed, and another equipment like SoFI would probably be better.

R5 - Punishing Maverick (LOSS 0-2)
This was so frustrating because I was at 3-1 and If I clinch this round I am so much closer to 5-1 and top 8. G1 wasn't much of a game, he gets a natural Jitte on turn 3 with some small dorks that attack me and makes my Shamans and Bobs obsolete. I desperately need an Abrupt Decay or Vindicate to get in the game. I don't, and my discard is useless because he's empty handed by turn 4. Game 2 goes much the same, I don't know how to sideboard, I should have boarded in Surgical for PFire in retrospect, but instead I just board in Persecution and Deluge. He lands a Scavenging Ooze after getting Grove/Fires active and it's a bloodbath when he starts activating Knight with Scryb Ranger a couple times a turn. Yuck. I really need to practice this matchup, and it's one where I really felt the 3rd Abrupt Decay would have been really great. Maybe dropping BSkull to the sideboard is correct so I can squeeze it in.

R6 - New Miracles (WIN 2-1)
Game 1 is decided by 3 copies of Terminus, even in the face of Lingering Souls. I don't get more than 2 tokens out to pressure Jace, but it never kills him. He Entreats for 6 angels while I'm at 18 and I scoop. G2 He spins his wheels, I get t1 Deathrite, and then I go back to back with Bob/Library. Bob eats a Swords to Plowshares but Library resolves (one of my best cards in this matchup!) I Thoughtseize away a Snapcaster and windmill Choke while he's tapped out. I land a Goyf, then he scoops when I land Liliana. G3 goes much the same, only he goes even riskier/deeper against a potential Choke, casting 2 Ponders and a Portent on t3, and I of course have the choke. We both mulligan to 5 this game, but my 5 murdered his 5. He's a little salty after getting Choked out of the game, and the Wasteland on his only white source (Tundra) was probably the final nail in the coffin. Choke reminds me how much of a blowout it can be, and Sculler was BOSS in this matchup. I don't remember all the details but I took a Terminus, StP, and Snapcaster Mage over the 3 games. It seemed bad in the face of Terminus, but it bought me time to start stacking powerful 2-drops to overwhelm him. I faced this matchup with Top a bunch of times and the real lesson I learned was to be patient with threats. Dig in incrementally and save them in hand for post-Terminus. Discard goes for STP/Snaps, counterspells if I need to land Library or Choke.

So a fun day, my tie-breakers make it so I squeak into 16th (Maverick player made top 8.) I get $30, so essentially giving me back my entry fee, but I opt for store credit at $37.50 (easy decision.)

The cards I was impressed with over the day: Sculler and Choke. I'm convinced these are not just pet cards, but useful and good. The cards I was not impressed with over the day: Batterskull, Vindicate, and Swords to Plowshares. Even though the format is very fair right now, I feel like 4 copies of STP might be a little too much. This might be where I add the 3rd Decay, but I'm already clogged at the 2 spot (20!) so I don't think this would be great as far as curve goes. It might just need to be a concession to need. I could also see dropping the Vindicate for the 3rd Decay. Vindicate is a pet card, and the only reason I played it was to have a maindeck answer to Jace/PW's/permanents that Decay doesn't hit.

What I would change: Take out the Vindicate for 3rd Decay, maybe drop the Batterskull to the sideboard for Burn/matchups where I want more beefy threats like Maverick and blue mid-range decks. If I can buy/trade into a SoFI I think I will and play that main over BSkull. Goofy is the real deal for beats, and in every game it was at least a 4/5, and sometimes 5/6 or better in the matchups where it counts. I'm definitely keeping this as my main Legacy deck; this reminded me how much fun discard into Tarmo-SMASH can be. A friend asked me what I'm playing yesterday, and I said 'Tarmogoyf combo. I pay 2 mana and get a 5/6.'

[Mr. Safety]

Nice job!

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18540&d=315363&f=LE

[KoDiamonds]

Nice job!

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18540&d=315363&f=LE

Thank you! Credit goes to everyone who helps contribute ideas/discussion in this thread :)

[Claymore]

Thoughts on [[Abolish]]? Might be for more of a Loan or Excavator build, but seems solid against Chalice and especially Blood Moon decks. Likely Stoneforge as well.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think a fringe card from 2000 is going to make the cut. My experience is that land drops are important, so discarding a spare land is usually a no-go. If it's late game and we have enough lands we could just hardcast a more relevant card like Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate. If it's early game, I don't think we want to be cutting our mana supply off for the sake of a 'free' spell. Why would you want it over Abrupt Decay? In my experience, Decay is just plain better overall at dealing with Stoneforge, Chalice, or Moon. If they get a t1 Moon on the play, well, lucky them. I'm not going to play Abolish for the miniscule amount of situations like that. Chalice/Moon is very prevalent in my metagame and that's why I have moved to 3 maindeck Decays. I am debating sideboard Krosan Grip, but I think I'll stick to Maelstrom Pulse. Once I know that they are playing Moon I obviously fetch basics around that and prioritize Deathrite Shaman.

TL;DR - Rock isn't in the market for conditional cards for tempo. It needs individually powerful cards you can rely on to do the best job. Loam decks are a different animal, as you hinted at.

[KoDiamonds]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-02-26

Someone copied my exact 75 and got 30th!

[CptHaddock]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-02-26

Someone copied my exact 75 and got 30th!

It looks like someone may be on your list at Worcester too, just saw them crush grixis delver.

[Mr. Safety]

It's a great deck choice in the current metagame. It has decent matchups against most of the fair decks.

[KoDiamonds]

When 30% of the field is Delver decks, oh yeah!

[Mr. Safety]

Another good finish in a small tournament, pretty standard rock-fare. I like the Ramanup Excavator/Dryad Arbor/GSZ singletons, it allows a slightly bigger ramp game plan, similar to Maverick. I like my Scullers too much to sacrifice slots, but this is still a solid option.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18728&d=317046&f=LE

[lavafrogg]

Another good finish in a small tournament, pretty standard rock-fare. I like the Ramanup Excavator/Dryad Arbor/GSZ singletons, it allows a slightly bigger ramp game plan, similar to Maverick. I like my Scullers too much to sacrifice slots, but this is still a solid option.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18728&d=317046&f=LE

What are you playing right now Saftey?

[Mr. Safety]

What are you playing right now Saftey?

I'm on rhino fit atm.

[Mr. Safety]

Debating taking Rock to a 1k on 6/16. I still don't have a SoFI, which is my biggest reservation. I got 16th out of around 70 players in the last 1K, deck felt good. This may be my last opportunity to play Deathrite Shaman in a sanctioned tournament, depending on the next announcement in July.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
2x Sylvan Library
2x Lingering Souls

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Choke
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Zealous Persectution


Thoughts are welcome! This is typically my go-to deck for tournaments, I'm very comfortable piloting it. I have some new toys with Liliana, the Last Hope, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck. I could drop a Library for it, but I love Library against the blue decks.

[KoDiamonds]

Debating taking Rock to a 1k on 6/16. I still don't have a SoFI, which is my biggest reservation. I got 16th out of around 70 players in the last 1K, deck felt good. This may be my last opportunity to play Deathrite Shaman in a sanctioned tournament, depending on the next announcement in July.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
2x Sylvan Library
2x Lingering Souls

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Choke
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Zealous Persectution


Thoughts are welcome! This is typically my go-to deck for tournaments, I'm very comfortable piloting it. I have some new toys with Liliana, the Last Hope, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck. I could drop a Library for it, but I love Library against the blue decks.

Looks like a solid list. I would obviously make minor tweaks here and there but thats just because our lists are just different (I havent changed my 75). Good luck and definitely write up a report! I would look forward to it.

Of note: There are some numbers I can overlook but 1 Bayou is something I cant write off. Getting it Wastelanded early and having multiple double B spells in the deck makes it a risky play. I run 3 Bayou, and you should run at least 2.

[Megadeus]

Does this deck survive a deathrite ban? If so how does it change? Just all theory of course. I imagine it's more focused on 1 drop discard as its proactive approach?

[Mr. Safety]

Looks like a solid list. I would obviously make minor tweaks here and there but thats just because our lists are just different (I havent changed my 75). Good luck and definitely write up a report! I would look forward to it.

Of note: There are some numbers I can overlook but 1 Bayou is something I cant write off. Getting it Wastelanded early and having multiple double B spells in the deck makes it a risky play. I run 3 Bayou, and you should run at least 2.

I would love to have a 2nd Bayou, but I don't own one. I've tried Overgrown Tomb before, but it just isn't the same. It's the biggest reason why I always include an Urborg in the mana-base, due to the double-black requirements.

@Megadeus: I think there are three distinct ways to approach The Rock if a deathrite ban happens.

1) Go bigger, like Maverick/Nic Fit with GSZ
2) Go wider, like Deadguy Ale + Souls/Bitterblossom
3) Go leaner, like Death and Taxes using cards like Mother of Runes, Tidehollow Sculler.

I am already playing Rhino Fit atm, probably going to use it at the tournament instead of Rock. Sword of Fire and Ice is a pretty important card in my metagame, and I don't have one. My inclination is to go with the 3rd option if I was dedicated to playing a rock-style deck, I love Tidehollow Sculler and Mother of runes. I could play Slow Depths, but without DRS that version suffers even worse than The Rock.

[sdematt]

Does this deck survive a deathrite ban? If so how does it change? Just all theory of course. I imagine it's more focused on 1 drop discard as its proactive approach?

I'd wait to see how the rest of the meta shakes out. We basically go back to 2012 era Rock. I'd run Hierarchs and Birds to see if they're good enough in the meta, and if not, I'm running more discard or we have to go back to Mox Diamond Junk.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I'd wait to see how the rest of the meta shakes out. We basically go back to 2012 era Rock. I'd run Hierarchs and Birds to see if they're good enough in the meta, and if not, I'm running more discard or we have to go back to Mox Diamond Junk.

-Matt

Yay! Mox Diamond Junk!

I would still be really surprised to see a DRS ban.

I wish they could just errata him to only make G and B mana.... stupid blue mages ruining everything

[Mr. Safety]

I could see chrome mix in that spot too, but not a set, and not as good as diamonds with 24 lands.

Birds? Uggh. It's ok as acceleration I guess, but not a threat like drs. I think Knight of the Reliquary would probably be bettwr.

[sdematt]

Sure, it's not a threat, but you want to have mana consistency. I agree it's likely not the best option, The format slows a little. I remember playing my 2012 SCG run and being on 3 DRS (yes, I know...) and not really seeing any other Shamans around. Card was good, but not integral. I was still playing Knight then, format was much slower, but Miracles still existed (although it wasn't a menace as not as many peeps were running it).

I'd be inclined to still run Noble Hierarch, and expect to play against more SnT, Canadian Thresh, Reanimator/Combo like before. Knight likely replaces Souls...as seen here. Asssuming DRS ban and meta shifts to exclude Grixis and 4C bullshit...

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

2 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 STP
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
22

//







Again, just spitballing.

[Mr. Safety]

Another option is to go pseudo-Maverick with GSZ + Dryad Arbor for mana acceleration, like 3 GSZ/1 Arbor/1Birds of Paradise. That's 5 slots instead of 4 that Deathrite used to do, but it would also allow for some cool silver bullets in the main/side (Teeg, Scooze) along with functionally playing with 7 Tarmogoyfs.

[sdematt]

Another option is to go pseudo-Maverick with GSZ + Dryad Arbor for mana acceleration, like 3 GSZ/1 Arbor/1Birds of Paradise. That's 5 slots instead of 4 that Deathrite used to do, but it would also allow for some cool silver bullets in the main/side (Teeg, Scooze) along with functionally playing with 7 Tarmogoyfs.

I ran 3 GSZ back then and really liked having infinite Goyfs. You're basically white Team America, dropping Goyfs and Knights instead of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

[KoDiamonds]

Deathrite Shaman is banned... 😭😭😭

What do we do from here, boys??

[CptHaddock]

Deathrite Shaman is banned... 😭😭😭

What do we do from here, boys??

I think there are quite a few good options. The most obivous would be going back to Hiearch and/or Mox Diamond rock. I think that between push and the other 1 mana discard spells, it also makes sense to just completely skip over the acceleration and just play those instead.

First top, now DRS. They really don't want people playing rock huh? :tongue:

[KoDiamonds]

So I spent the whole day pondering about it at work so here are some options. First off, it'll be 4 slots opening up. I dont think a DRS ban changes our core of SFM, Goyf, Bob, Souls, etc so it should be pretty simple

Option1:
Slot 1) Has to be a 23rd land. With no mana dork, it has to be more lands.
Slots 2-4) Mother of Ruins. If the meta settles down to a more fair environment, I can see the 23rd land being a 3rd Scrubland. Going T1 Mom, t2 sfm/bob and being able to protect them is HUGE. Unbelievably huge. Im leaning towards this option to be honest.

Option 2:
Slots 1-3) Mana dork. Birds or Noble Hierarch.
I dont like this much. Our deck doesnt utilize the ramp much (t2 souls isnt intimidating at all). It would be nice to go 2 drop + wasteland but I dont think the payoff is worth it as that rarely won games on its own with DRS.
Slot 4) Any flex slot. 4th Souls. 1 Push. 4th Decay. 4th Hymn. Maelstrom Pulse Main. It could be anything.

Option 3: Up the overall curve.
This would force Slot 1) to be another land.
However, slots 2-4 can be any number of the cards i listed in the above option. Hell, it could even be Grim Flayer, something that could be really good now that main deck graveyard hate is banned.

Grim Flayer is amazing in modern. Going t1 discard t2 flayer and being able to dig for more hate is insane. It could even be +1 land +3 Flayer. Can you imagine flayer carrying a sword? Yes, stack your deck and draw a card.

It could also just be a combination of more removal as well. Diabolic edict. 3rd liliana of the veil.


I expect the meta to be super unfair initially, as it usually is the case after a meta shakeup. Then, once it settles, fair decks can thrive, and thats when we come in. Along that timeline, Ill probably try Flayers first and then switch to Mom once midrange has found a set list. This of course all depends on what the meta looks like, but this is just brainstorming of course.

What does everyone else think?

[Mr. Safety]

So I spent the whole day pondering about it at work so here are some options. First off, it'll be 4 slots opening up. I dont think a DRS ban changes our core of SFM, Goyf, Bob, Souls, etc so it should be pretty simple

Option1:
Slot 1) Has to be a 23rd land. With no mana dork, it has to be more lands.
Slots 2-4) Mother of Ruins. If the meta settles down to a more fair environment, I can see the 23rd land being a 3rd Scrubland. Going T1 Mom, t2 sfm/bob and being able to protect them is HUGE. Unbelievably huge. Im leaning towards this option to be honest.

Option 2:
Slots 1-3) Mana dork. Birds or Noble Hierarch.
I dont like this much. Our deck doesnt utilize the ramp much (t2 souls isnt intimidating at all). It would be nice to go 2 drop + wasteland but I dont think the payoff is worth it as that rarely won games on its own with DRS.
Slot 4) Any flex slot. 4th Souls. 1 Push. 4th Decay. 4th Hymn. Maelstrom Pulse Main. It could be anything.

Option 3: Up the overall curve.
This would force Slot 1) to be another land.
However, slots 2-4 can be any number of the cards i listed in the above option. Hell, it could even be Grim Flayer, something that could be really good now that main deck graveyard hate is banned.

Grim Flayer is amazing in modern. Going t1 discard t2 flayer and being able to dig for more hate is insane. It could even be +1 land +3 Flayer. Can you imagine flayer carrying a sword? Yes, stack your deck and draw a card.

It could also just be a combination of more removal as well. Diabolic edict. 3rd liliana of the veil.


I expect the meta to be super unfair initially, as it usually is the case after a meta shakeup. Then, once it settles, fair decks can thrive, and thats when we come in. Along that timeline, Ill probably try Flayers first and then switch to Mom once midrange has found a set list. This of course all depends on what the meta looks like, but this is just brainstorming of course.

What does everyone else think?

I'm definitely going to play moms myself. I feel like GSZ could also be very good. I also agree that land 23 becomes a ton more important. I think I'll make it a treetops village now that I don't have Drs to prioritize. So for me, if I play this again:

-4 Drs
+4 mother of runes
-1 something
+1 treetops village

The discard gets a little more difficult, because shaman allowed for hymns a lot easier. I will probably try more targeted discard and cut from 3 to 2 hymns.

Edit: because I expect combo to surge I am looking closer at tidehollow Sculler as well. Mom>Sculler is gas, even against fair decks.

[Mr. Safety]

Also, with hymn being less reliable to cast off drs I think its finally time to commit to collective brutality in some number alongside at least 3x lingering souls.

[Megadeus]

Didn't mean to jinx it guys my bad!


Also, with hymn being less reliable to cast off drs I think its finally time to commit to collective brutality in some number alongside at least 3x lingering souls.

This has been what I want to do all day thinking bout it. I want Junk with Souls, Brutality, Goyfs, Bobs. I think with a pile of 2 and 3 drops though you want acceleration of some sort, and when you're playing mono 2 drops, Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond seem like the best options rather than another mana dork. Otherwise you maybe go to like 2-3 Green Sun (with Dryad Arbor), and like 2 Noble Hierarch? Winning Goyf wars seems sweet.

[KoDiamonds]

How would the manabase look like with Chrome Mox in the list? And how many Chrome Mox would you run? It seems like it would go against our game plan of outvaluing our opponent if we start trying to accelerate via the Mox.

[maharis]

With DRS being banned, this deck is in a really uncomfortable spot. The strength of green comes in being able to accelerate up the curve, and DRS was great for that. Without it, and considering how important the black cards will be to the deck -- you kind of have to go to Birds or Mox Diamond, and both of them are liabilities in the late game. This deck is designed to play mid-to-long games, so having dead draws late is really going to be rough considering plenty of other decks had toys printed in the past 6 years as well. The ramp-into-threats plan is better suited to a GW-base deck, and that's Maverick.

Alternatively, you could lower the curve. The Modern version is basically a zillion 1cmc interaction spells and 2cmc threats. That's possible here, but I don't know if it's Legacy strong. Wasteland and Stoneforge Mystic not being legal in modern change the dynamic quite a bit. For example, you can max discard and 2 drops and get better mana vs. Wasteland decks with Deadguy Ale.

Or, you could do that in GB and not play STP/Stoneforge, and tilt toward aggression, especially with Fatal Push being printed:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
Some more creatures

4 Thoughtseize
4 IoK
4 Fatal Push
Some Lilianas
Etc...

Two-color decks also work a lot better with Chrome Mox, which may be preferred to Mox Diamond in decks that aren't very specifically trying to max out lands because you can actually cut lands to play it and you won't be topdecking as much fast mana late. The redundancy of effects makes it less awkward to pin stuff under it.

The upshot is I don't see a huge incentive to play these three colors all together anymore in this kind of deck... I'd much rather play Nic Fit and really get to leverage the up-curve strength of green ramp. Or, play Maverick, DGA, or BG aggro.

I don't know, I know this sounds negative but after everything that happened yesterday I feel like my antipathy toward DRS being banned was with this deck, which I loved playing, in mind. I just always wished that the dumb blue drops that incentivized BUG so heavily over any other BGx deck never existed. Now Deathrite is gone and... here we are I suppose.

[Mr. Safety]

I wouldn't play more than 2x chrome mox. I would also look to the Deadguy thread, as there are a few players that have been successful using chrome mox over the past year.

Here is my starting point (but honestly, I think mix fit is a better deck atm, it still has explorer.)

3x mother of runes
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
2x stoneforge mystic
3x tidehollow Sculler

4x thoughtseize
4x swords to plowshares
2x abrupt decay
1x vindicate
2x collective brutality
2x liliana of the veil
3x Lingering souls
1x jitte
2x sylvan library

23 lands, including treetops village

[sdematt]

I think we have to move in a direction to stabilize our manabases, first and foremost. Sinkhole/Stifle are back, and the Vial decks will be back. I am considering still running dorks, or changing the configuration a bit. Souls is better positioned, but we also need to upgrade GY and Combo hate to some degree.

[Mr. Safety]

I think we have to move in a direction to stabilize our manabases, first and foremost. Sinkhole/Stifle are back, and the Vial decks will be back. I am considering still running dorks, or changing the configuration a bit. Souls is better positioned, but we also need to upgrade GY and Combo hate to some degree.

It may be correct to play 24 lands + kotr again, if we see mana denial in large percentages.

[damionblackgear]

This was what I was looking at back in February.


1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


You could easily drop the Shaman from this list in favor or a 1cc mana dork. I prefer Birds of Paradise because it flies and you can stick things on it to actually do damage.

I had dropped KotR in favor of the recursion package from Rallier and Excavator. Because of that I got to tinker with the manabase a little. Later builds managed to sneak in a Liliana, The Last Hope which worked out very well in testing.
I was also testing Smokestack from the board.

I'm actually expecting everyone to try and sub in a 1cc dork and then flow to graveyard based decks. They've all been repressed and Shaman's influence was big there.

Edit- What are people's thoughts about amulet of safekeeping ? Link (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/core-set-2019/35038-amulet-of-safekeeping)

[Mr. Safety]

I think if you're looking to grind, nic fit is probably better, at least in my experience. Rock was always a mid-range deck that could play tempo style if needed or grindy if needed, but just good stuff galore and having more powerful cards than opponents. More games go the tempo route though, especially without drs now. I'm still thinking mom is the way to go if we want to persist at rock. Nic fit is my jam for now.

Natural order seems like a way for rock to vary itself from the other decks.

[KoDiamonds]

Lands (23)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (12)
2 Mother of Runes
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution


Heres the list that Ill probably be testing. The main addition is 2 Mother of Runes. Well see how she performs. Other than that, a 4th Thoughtseize and a Treetop as an extra threat. Cutting a Hymn in the board for a 4th Surgical since Im expecting a ton of reanimator. Overall the sideboard is probably a crapshoot without a meta so lets see

[damionblackgear]

Natural order seems like a way for rock to vary itself from the other decks.

I disagree about NO. If you're going to spend 4 Mana, you need it to guarantee that it will either win or put you in a situation that it's hard to lose. Progenitus is nice but not 100% to actually be a board presence. What other options would you suggest? (I'm drawing a blank)

Also, we don't play many creatures. 14-16 is pretty standard. If you remove the Bob's, SFM, and Souls, that's down to 4-6 viable sac outlets for NO.

I also suggest that we try to either re-template or adjust to new possibilities. Let's make something else out of The Rock name since it wanted to leave the thread (looking at nic fit). The stripped down versions are consistent but lack the ability to adapt. There are also less of us testing than most decks. That just makes this more interesting though.

This was where I went since my last post.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Delue

2 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

Sideboard is 13 now but I would appreciate any criticism on it as an overall.

[Leonides]

Remegade railler is nice but i wouldnt use 2 of them in this type od deck witness is better bevouse can take evey pernamnt and spell i’d rather try split 1railer 1 witness and try ...
Also my opinion is to put mother of runes insted of judges familiar maybe 1-2 zenith to search silver bullets ( this decks has nothing for haveyard hate exept ooze that is not tutorable)

[Mr. Safety]

I disagree about NO. If you're going to spend 4 Mana, you need it to guarantee that it will either win or put you in a situation that it's hard to lose. Progenitus is nice but not 100% to actually be a board presence. What other options would you suggest? (I'm drawing a blank)

Also, we don't play many creatures. 14-16 is pretty standard. If you remove the Bob's, SFM, and Souls, that's down to 4-6 viable sac outlets for NO.

I also suggest that we try to either re-template or adjust to new possibilities. Let's make something else out of The Rock name since it wanted to leave the thread (looking at nic fit). The stripped down versions are consistent but lack the ability to adapt. There are also less of us testing than most decks. That just makes this more interesting though.

This was where I went since my last post.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Delue

2 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

Sideboard is 13 now but I would appreciate any criticism on it as an overall.

Fetchlands + Dryad Arbor + Natural Order. You have literally 7 maindeck ways to combo with Natural Order. I'm not saying it's the perfect answer, but I don't think its unreasonable. Hell, just nabbing a Craterhoof Behemoth probably wins you the game on the spot with only a couple Souls tokens on the field. Risky with Dark Confidant, but I could see Natural Order coming in for Confidants out of the sideboard. You lose the velocity in fair matchups but you gain a combo win after disrupting your opponents.

EDIT: My starting list, going to 61 to get land count up to 23. I could see dropping the Scullers, but they always seem to overperform. Now that I'm including Mother of Runes the get even better against fair decks. I could also drop to 1 Library, and put 1 in the board.

3x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
2x Pithing Needle
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse

[damionblackgear]

I don't actually think Mom does enough. The protection is nice but we're not full of creatures. Except for Bob, and Mom, there aren't creatures we only want to keep alive because they offer more than just a body. It seems more a stall tactic for us than a win condition or lock piece (tl;dr she offers us no board improvement).

Personally, I'd rather have the extra time vs some of the decks we're not as good against. Familiar isn't green, strong, or tested (use protection folks... I joke!) But it is a flying force spike (to instants and sorceries). That buys us time vs most of the decks we're more than bad against (ex: burn, storm, etc.). It also flies, so we can actually connect through the meriad of ground bodies without having to burn our removal. Because I am running rallier over witness, I'm going to give it a whirl for now.

I chose rallier due to some of the same logic people previously used against me (in this thread no less) when comparing TOP vs LIBRARY or even LOAM vs CRUCIBLE. The argument is flawed, but still pretty convincing at times. The short of it, "it's less mana".

I still think it's not the most sound argument I've ever heard due to intended funtions of the previous comparisons but, right now, there is some merit to it as these cards essentially would be performing the same role.

Having things come directly into play seems to be better than going into my hand to be cast at a later point. The limitation of not being able to get spells shouldn't be too much of an issue as I can recover/improve a lock, develop my or hinder their manabase, or improve board presence. I mean, getting Bob is usually good. Plus, with an active Stronghold I can sudo-witness at same upfront, but less overall, cost.

My other thought was KotR. I love Knight and she's always proved useful. After I'm done testing rallier I will likely go back to her.

[Mr. Safety]

Mom significantly improves fair matchups, causing opponent's to use an extra removal spell on her or getting your goyfs through in combat. Even if all she did was protect Dark Confidant/Stoneforge Mystic for a turn she has justified her inclusion. I'm actually considering upping my Tidehollow Sculler count because she can protect those as well, turning them into legitimately strong tempo plays (robbing a key spell indefinitely, attacking into combo decks.)

Rallier is definitely a cool card. I've seen it in a few Maverick lists, alongside Ramanup Excavator, which gives it some really good card advantage.

EDIT: Renegade Rallier seems amazing with Knight of the Reliquary as well, and Ramanup Excavator. I don't think you would have to go too deep to include 1-2 GSZ's. At that point you're playing more 'good stuff' with more spells rather than Maverick with more creatures. I kinda like it. IIRC, you were trying this with Hidden Stockpile as well? Rallier gets a lot better with that kind of sacrifice engine, too.

I think if you want extra time against decks then replacing DRS with discard is probably correct. You could even go full-on KnightRock with a lands toolbox, which seems pretty cool.

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2-4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress
4x StP
2-4x Hymn to Tourach
1-3x Abrupt Decay
0-2x Sylvan Library
1x Jitte
1x SoFI/Bskull
1-3x Liliana OTV
0-2x Liliana TLH
0-1x Vindicate/Malestrom Pulse

24 lands (10x fetch, 4x dual, 3x basic, 4x Wasteland, 3x utility lands: Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Maze of ith)

I remember Brian Kibler playing a quad-laser list pre-DRS and it looked sweet. I'll try and dig it up.

[Hanni]

With DRS gone, I'm really interested in a Nic-Fit Maverick sort of deck. Since this doesn't really belong in either of those threads, and since people have recently been discussing some similar cards in here, would it be okay to discuss it here?

The list:

GWb The Rock and His Millions

Lands (24)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit

I'm considering cutting the 4 Thoughtseize for 1 Wasteland, 2 Tireless Tracker, and 1 Ramunap Excavator, but I'm not sure. I feel like Thoughtseize makes alot of sense paired with Cabal Therapy and does a great job of improving combo matchups game one while still being really good against most fair matchups.

I may end up posting this in the Nic-Fit thread instead, but it diverges from their usual gameplan quite a bit...

[Mr. Safety]

With DRS gone, I'm really interested in a Nic-Fit Maverick sort of deck. Since this doesn't really belong in either of those threads, and since people have recently been discussing some similar cards in here, would it be okay to discuss it here?

The list:

GWb The Rock and his millions (Titania)

Lands (24)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit

I'm considering cutting the 4 Thoughtseize for 1 Wasteland, 2 Tireless Tracker, and 1 Ramunap Excavator, but I'm not sure. I feel like Thoughtseize makes alot of sense paired with Cabal Therapy and does a great job of improving combo matchups game one while still being really good against most fair matchups.

I may end up posting this in the Nic-Fit thread instead, but it diverges from their usual gameplan quite a bit...

As you are likely fully aware of, Wasteland + Explorer has natural tension. You are cutting them off duals but feeding them basics, basics that are sure to be there with Wasteland coming back into the forefront of the format. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just awkward. I almost think that it might be better to just play 2x Ghost Quarter and pick off their basics after Vet digs them out.

I also think 2x Thoughtseize should be 2x Collective Brutality. With Excavator you can discard lands and get them back to escalate. Maybe a 25th land to go with it would be smart. You would still have decent g1's against combo decks but also have removal/reach/discard against fair decks.

[Hanni]

It's just a starting point. Crop Rotation is probably better than Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. The list probably needs a Phyrexian Tower.

I realize there is slight disynergy with Explorer and Wasteland, but I figured most decks aren't running many basics, although maybe I should do a 2/2 split with GQ/Wasteland instead, like you suggest.

Still, there is a ton of synergy between Explorer and Tracker, so I think there is definitely value to this pile. Combine that with the accel from Explorer to power out a quick Titania protected by Mom just sounds super sweet.

Collective Brutality is definitely a good suggestion, since I can use it to kill my Explorer's if necessary. I was mostly interested in Thoughtseize for its cost, making turn 1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 Therapy + Explorer + flashback Therapy lines, utterly devastating the opponent's hand.

[Mr. Safety]

It's just a starting point. Crop Rotation is probably better than Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. The list probably needs a Phyrexian Tower.

I'm pretty sure Crop Rotation is either a maindeck card or none. Do you want more flexibility (like additional Knight activations) or do you want a faster tutor for Bog/Karakas? This is the question really, and my inclination is that Knight is enough with a playset + GSZ. Tower is the main target for Nic Fit decks when they use Crop Rotation (it's my only maindeck target in my list.) If you have Knight active, you already have access to bigger mana so you likely won't activate Knight to get a Tower.


I realize there is slight disynergy with Explorer and Wasteland, but I figured most decks aren't running many basics, although maybe I should do a 2/2 split with GQ/Wasteland instead, like you suggest.

How does Wasteland further your plan? Are you using it to cut them off mana or utility lands? If you're using Knight as your linchpin to overcome the basics/Wasteland issue, which I think you have to by necessity, then it should work. However, are you sacrificing too much of your gameplan on durdling instead of attacking with big knights FTW?


Still, there is a ton of synergy between Explorer and Tracker, so I think there is definitely value to this pile. Combine that with the accel from Explorer to power out a quick Titania protected by Mom just sounds super sweet.

It does sound sweet! Why do you need Knight then? Why are you forcing Wasteland? Seems like pretty classic Nic Fit business already. Knight feeds Tracker, which Maverick already does, but so does Crop Rotation. Most Nic Fit variants, mine included, play 2 or more Crop Rotations.


Collective Brutality is definitely a good suggestion, since I can use it to kill my Explorer's if necessary. I was mostly interested in Thoughtseize for its cost, making turn 1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 Therapy + Explorer + flashback Therapy lines, utterly devastating the opponent's hand.

I use Liliana, the Last Hope as my 8th way to kill Explorers, similar to what Brutality can do. Brutality is a better late-game top-deck than Thoughtseize and 6 1-mana discards is typically enough to see one in your opener a good percentage of the time (I don't have numbers, but I've played for years and 6 has always been a comfortable number for t1 discard.) Nic Fit does this out of the sideboard with Thoughtseize/Duress, and against combo it's necessary. Against fair decks it's good, but probably not as good as just jamming threats that have to be dealt with. If you do go with Brutality I would suggest squeezing in an Eternal Witness. You can discard something to escalate, GSZ > Witness and get it back. Alternatively Volrath's Stronghold can do the same, albeit with only creatures.

Hope this helps...you're in a fairly awkward zone between Maverick and Nic Fit. It's like Nic Fit with Wasteland and without Deeds, or Maverick with bigger mana/threats. *Shrug* Test it out and see how it plays. One thing to note is that not many Nic Fit players have been using Titania lately. I'm not saying it's bad, but most folks have moved away from it (Brael might still be on it, he only plays BG.) Yeah, this probably belongs in the Nic Fit thread TBH.

[damionblackgear]

I am using Stockpile. 2 at present but thinking I may want to go back up to 3.

I was looking into synergies when I was building. That's part of the reason for the mox build with Stockpile + Rallier. From our conversations earlier this year, it worked well but was lacking that extra little something, even with Liliana, The Last Hope to make it worth while. In comes a meta shift and a re-testing of Judge's Familiar.

Judge's Familiar synergized really well with the others and was made better with the printing of Amulet of Safekeeping from the board (been testing it since it was spoiled). It's been a strong enough improvement that I'm tempted to think that Burn and AnT aren't bad match-ups any longer. Tempted, but that's a huge statement for us.

Leonides (thank you) touched on the build's blairingly obvious weakness to non-dredge (Judge's Familiar) graveyard strategies. I'm still checking into solutions here. I may take some of your advice and put back in a Zenith. My issue with Zenith is that, with my build, I'm not a Maverick styled deck. So, there are going to be times where there aren't a lot of good targets or opportunities to do with a Zenith when I get it. It would require a re-design before I could say it was a good idea.

This is also the reason I'm looking into putting back in KotR as well. She's expensive at 3cc but I have time with Familiar + Mox. Don't worry about finding the Kibler version. If I did use Knight, I'll probably revert my landbase to allow for her to be abusive in teh old fashion.

Hanni, I haven't seen you on here for A LONG time. I don't think I've even seen you in The Rock thread since Matt re-did it. How've you been?

For your list, I agree with Safety on your wasteland inclusion. you're right that most decks don't play many basics but, they do play some. I would suggest weeding them out, root and all. 3 Ghost Quarter should be enough with all of the fetching which you have access.

Also, have you done any testing? If so, how was Tracker? You can filter so many lands out so fast that I'm concerned that there won't be enough left over for 'em to be useful. I had tried it in an earlier version but I don't produce enough mana to make it worth while. I know that the actual Rock decks (Nic Fit) like and use 'em. You being a hybrid of builds may or may not.

Edit, 7/12 - I'm testing without Stoneforge package (5 cards) and a Rallier to open room for +2 Knight +3 Flayer, +1 Swords. It makes Mom an annoyance since I'll no longer have Jitte to rely on. Grasping Dunes is subbing in for that right now.

[KoDiamonds]

I've done some testing and here's my current 75. If I HAD TO play in a tournament, this would be it. However, I think there are still some kinks to ironed out (especially the sideboard) until the meta settles. But for now...

Lands (23)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (10)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (14)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution


The major change the take the place of Deathrite shaman is 3 Inquisitions of Kozilek. I tried 3 Mother of Runes and she was just underwhelming. I was convinced that those 3 slots needed to be 1 drops just for curve sake. So, you can do a lot worse than discard. Honestly, the extra discard feels great. It's the early interaction the deck needs, especially vs. the combo matchups. Even late game discard isn't bad vs. grindy decks to sandbag and cast prior to deploying your own threat. For now, it feels suffice.

The 4th DRS slot turned into a Treetop Village. 23 lands feels like where the deck needs to be and I figured that it should be a manland since we're losing 4 viable threats. IMO I don't mind getting it wastelanded since we are so black heavy, it protects our Bayous.

As for minor changes, Liliana, the Last Hope has been cut. All the rumblings of Temur Delver, Jeskai Blade, etc. etc. means she's pretty bad for now. If Strix's come back then she might be resleeved, but for now, shes sidelined. I swapped her for a 4th Souls. I've wanted 4 Souls in the deck this whole time since it's IMO the best card in the deck so it was an easy 1 for 1 swap.

I went down from 3 Hymns to 2 and swapped it for the 4th Thoughtseize. Like I said earlier, we need more 1 mana interaction.

I also swapped main/side the Pulse/ Deluge to where Pulse is now main. This might be wrong, but I LOVE Maelstrom Pulse and it seems more of a Main deck card, than a side (opposite for deluge). We'll see how the meta is.

Also cut the Grafdigger's Cage for 4 Surgicals.

I can see a lot of the sideboard changing (Are Zealous Persecutions even necessary now?) They could be 1/1 split of Diabolic Edict as well.


This is all the information I could gather for now. Input would be appreciated.

[sdematt]

I think Noble Hierarch still deserves consideration. I think RUG Delver and mana denial ilk will be coming back (honestly, I'll be sleeving up my Sinkholes soon), Noble is pretty good at hedging. I've tried Birds and they were great at fixing, but super dead after, just as I found in 2012. At least Noble can push your Goyfs into the danger zone against Anglers and larger Knights. Or, run 2/2 Iok and Noble. I feel like once you're at that many pieces of hand disruption, there's also some diminishing returns.

I have a different meta and therefore won't talk about sideboard, but otherwise, I'm pretty onboard with your main. You know I love Cabal Therapy, so I'd run a splits with that.

I'll post my draft tonight.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

@Kodiamonds, Discard is a good in the earlier parts of the game. As you get Liliana active and hand sizes shrink, it gets worse. Too much discard floods you the same as too many lands. Be careful. My bigger fear for you is that the stock list doesn't work well without luck.

@Matt, I feel like ramping out isn't a real solution to builds. Hierarch is ok but doesn't fill the same roll as Deathrite in the middle/late game. The extra single damage doesn't really do much since we're not swinging with no intention. The Goyf argument is it's best point but when's the last time you were in a stare down? We either kill their goyf and are being aggressive or are being defensive. Hoping they miss the trigger activation and block isn't a strong position.

Everyone, the reason we work is because we stay proactive, cause issues, and/or have a game ending gimmick. Do not stay with the basic stock list. Apples are not only red and green.

Everyone's testing different things and none of us have The Perfect idea. The Meta changes. The best thing we could do is take a step back at the end of every game, match, or tournament and think about what worked, what problems we had, and what problems we cause. Try to improve. Take time. Open gatherer and look into different options. Some will turn out to be bad. Others will be gold.

Morning rant over.

I'm going to be testing testing the below list unless someone posts a strong argument before the tournament. Otherwise, I'll see it tomorrow morning.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Renegade Rallier

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

3 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Grasping Dunes
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtsieze
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
2 Lost Legacy

15 Total

[Mr. Safety]

I feel like there is some serious potential for the old New Horizons draw engine, especially with Excavator in the mix now. I would think 2-3x Horizon Canopy would be very good with Crucible/Excavator, and it triggers your Stockpiles. Maybe that's going too deep, but it seems very good.

[damionblackgear]

tl;dr - Tournament went poorly. Deck needs more card advantage and less gimmick.

Sorry for the delay. I ended up playing with an unintentional substitution.

-1 Horizon Canopy (forgot to pull and sleeve)
+1 Wasteland (had left (or re)sleeved because I can't count to 2 apparently)

Test games to try and warm up a bit were played against a BR ReAnimator deck pre-board. The graveyard has already been noted as a weak point. I did go 2-4 though.

Ended up going 1-3

Round 1 vs Elves. 2-1

Game 1, I kept a less interactive hand from my notes and was quickly overrun by the 4 elves + Craterhoof.
Game 2, I nuked his board into oblivion with removal and eventually dropped a threat.
Game 3, Turn 3 Plague kept him off of anything useful. Until I could close it out.

Round 2 vs Miracles 1-2

Game 1, (Mull to 6) Game went long... bad for me. This is the game that I realized I didn't have the Canopy. Fetched for it with a Crucible in play... was very sad.
Game 2, I ult'ed Liliana and Zombies were too much. Legacy stole his Jaces early.
Game 3, I played according to my poor note taking and Legacy'd Elspeth (notes had this as in hand T2 with the last mana to cast he had brainstormed twice) vs Jace (he admitted to having ripped the next turn). Jace took the game.

Round 3 vs Flow Rock (Nic Fit w/ blue) 1-2

Game 1, I Swords'd his explorer and went to him before he could get online.
Game 2, (Mull to 6) He did to me what I did to Elves...
Game 3, (Mull to 6) Repeat of Game 2.

Round 4 vs Esper Stoneblade 0-2

Game 1, (Mull to 6) I ran out of gas after I played the wrong Liliana while true Name holding Batterskull bashed in my head.
Game 2, (Mull to 5) I forgot to Thoughtseize him after he played Stoneforge for Batterskull and instead played a second stockpile (and then the third). Was on the back foot from there.


Overall:
Knocking the dust off was nice but I don't think it was a good showing from my 75. Most of the time, I was hoping for more cards. With no Stoneforge, Canopy, or Library my only extra cards to hand came from Bob. That's not enough to stay competitive. That being said, I'm still not sure I want Library vs Stockpile. Reintroducing the Stoneforge package will likely be the first avenue explored.

Basics being everywhere REALLY made me want to put Armageddon back in.

Card Thoughts

I didn't like the Grasping Dunes.

When it showed up, I wish it had been a colored mana (may have been related to the extra wasteland).
Rallier, while a nice idea, will require a bit more to make work.

This may be because there is only 1. More dedication to it seems... like a future route for now.
Stockpile was amazing at drawing counters.

The 1/1's that did make the field were irrelevant.
The land recursion package wasn't that great

I kept forgetting about it (maybe 10 times over the course of the event).
Kept thinking... I wish I had that arbor instead of that Treetop Village.

[Mr. Safety]

The format is unsettled, which is the cause of some of the uncertainty I think. I wouldn't give up yet, just try the small tweeks you suggested. If nothing else you have gotten some real information on how good your test cards really are. My opinion is that Stockpile isn't fantastic as a general utility card, certainly not better than Library. With a deck built to abuse it, like 4x Souls, maybe Bloodghast and Cabal Therapy, it could be amazing. Rallier and Excavator seem out of place when you aren't packing GSZ. It's just too unreliable to count on getting them when you need them, even with Stockpile filtering.

Were the 1/1's really irrelevant? I would think getting free tokens would have been the best part of Stockpile.

[sdematt]

Damion, you mean something like:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOFF
3 Lingering Souls
3 Decay
3 STP

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Learning Center

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetchlands
////

1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Canonist
2 EE/Deed
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless


I'm playing 2x Armageddon in my sideboard of Maverick, so that's possible to do here as well. I'm just not sure what I'd really want to cut. A Relentless and an EE?

[damionblackgear]

@Safety, I'll never give up. the 1/1's were actually useless for when they came out. Partially because they were unable to block TTN or got Deeded away and partially because the decks that they landed against, just didn't care. The Miracles deck burned 2 Forces on stopping them early though. They do have their place, but I'm still up in the air on if they'll stay. I'll give them another chance before I say yes or no.

@Matt, Your suggested list isn't my style. for me it's too straight forward and draw dependent. Also, I don't like using GSZ with limited selections.

Armageddon was proven to work (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/32571) already (Irony, one of th. My old Armageddon list was the starting point. I had forgotten some things that I've remembered the Crucible land recursion package doesn't work well without exploration. You need to power out and filter out your options. I'm going to put it in the board for now and see how things work out. I didn't use the Needles (never drew them) so they'll sit in that slot. I've got two different variants right now that I'm thinking of.

1st is with the Stoneforge package re-introduced.
2nd is with Library.

If anyone is interested in checking them out (feel free to leave feedback here), you can see them both using the link below and going to the "Rock -2" link. Tabs are at the bottom of the sheet. I date everything mm/dd/yy. Older sheets are oldest to newest... I got smarter... kinda.

[KoDiamonds]

Damion, you mean something like:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOFF
3 Lingering Souls
3 Decay
3 STP

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Learning Center

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetchlands
////

1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Canonist
2 EE/Deed
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless


I'm playing 2x Armageddon in my sideboard of Maverick, so that's possible to do here as well. I'm just not sure what I'd really want to cut. A Relentless and an EE?

Your list has the same amount of hand disruption as mine (9 discard spells). Topdecking one vs a hellbent opponent does suck, but I feel like its been pretty solid in my testing.

[Mr. Safety]

Your list has the same amount of hand disruption as mine (9 discard spells). Topdecking one vs a hellbent opponent does suck, but I feel like its been pretty solid in my testing.

I've always played around 8 discards; it's incredible against any deck, save drege, if you can curve multiples in a row in the early turns, especially with DRS gone. I typically cap out at 5 1-mana discards though, then 3x Hymn to Tourach. I can't emphasize enough how good Collective Brutality can be with Lingering Souls, and it's a hell of a lot better top-deck than Thoughtsieze or Hymn in the late game with hellbent opponents. I'm actually working on finally completing my set of Marsh Flats so I can do a deadguy ale version with Brutality/Souls/Bloodghast/Therapy.

For rock, I would do this:

3-4x Thoughtseize
1-2x Cabal Therapy/Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Hymn
2x Brutality

That gets it up to potentially 10, but again, Brutality is never dead.

[KoDiamonds]

I've always played around 8 discards; it's incredible against any deck, save drege, if you can curve multiples in a row in the early turns, especially with DRS gone. I typically cap out at 5 1-mana discards though, then 3x Hymn to Tourach. I can't emphasize enough how good Collective Brutality can be with Lingering Souls, and it's a hell of a lot better top-deck than Thoughtsieze or Hymn in the late game with hellbent opponents. I'm actually working on finally completing my set of Marsh Flats so I can do a deadguy ale version with Brutality/Souls/Bloodghast/Therapy.

For rock, I would do this:

3-4x Thoughtseize
1-2x Cabal Therapy/Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Hymn
2x Brutality

That gets it up to potentially 10, but again, Brutality is never dead.

The thing about that suite is youre so congested at the 2 drop slot. You already have Goyf, Bob, SFM, Decay, Library, etc. I really want Brutality as well (i am on 4 souls so its perfect) but Hymn is just more powerful and I honestly dont think you can have both.

[Mr. Safety]

The thing about that suite is youre so congested at the 2 drop slot. You already have Goyf, Bob, SFM, Decay, Library, etc. I really want Brutality as well (i am on 4 souls so its perfect) but Hymn is just more powerful and I honestly dont think you can have both.

This points me towards Deadguy Ale instead, actually. Tarmogoyf is great, but I'm not sure it's good enough without blue support. Deadguy can pull off Confidant/SFM as it's 2-mana creatures, leaving slots open for those Brutalities and Hymns. With DRS Rock had a critical mass of powerful threats, but without it the deck slows down a turn and becomes more susceptible to blue disruption (Wasteland/Stifle.) My opinion is that other mana-dorks just aren't enough in a deck that needs all of it's cards to be the best at what they do. DRS was hands-down the best mana-dork ever; birds/noble don't offer enough IMHO. If we go with GSZ, Nic Fit is likely a better fair mid-range deck (again, IMHO.) Once you slow it down a little more with Knights, then Maverick seems to be the logical direction.

It's odd, but it isn't the first time I've come to the realization that Tarmogoyf is actually the worst creature in Rock; all it does is beat face. If you're on blue with free counters and tons of ways to dig, Tarmogoyf works wonders because he's the fastest/biggest threat you can drop for 2 mana. Considering how much work I put into getting my Tarmogoyfs, trust me that I don't give up on him lightly. Until the format settles with an obvious replacement for DRS in this deck, I'm on Nic Fit and Deadguy for mid-range non-blue fair decks.

[KoDiamonds]

This points me towards Deadguy Ale instead, actually. Tarmogoyf is great, but I'm not sure it's good enough without blue support. Deadguy can pull off Confidant/SFM as it's 2-mana creatures, leaving slots open for those Brutalities and Hymns. With DRS Rock had a critical mass of powerful threats, but without it the deck slows down a turn and becomes more susceptible to blue disruption (Wasteland/Stifle.) My opinion is that other mana-dorks just aren't enough in a deck that needs all of it's cards to be the best at what they do. DRS was hands-down the best mana-dork ever; birds/noble don't offer enough IMHO. If we go with GSZ, Nic Fit is likely a better fair mid-range deck (again, IMHO.) Once you slow it down a little more with Knights, then Maverick seems to be the logical direction.

It's odd, but it isn't the first time I've come to the realization that Tarmogoyf is actually the worst creature in Rock; all it does is beat face. If you're on blue with free counters and tons of ways to dig, Tarmogoyf works wonders because he's the fastest/biggest threat you can drop for 2 mana. Considering how much work I put into getting my Tarmogoyfs, trust me that I don't give up on him lightly. Until the format settles with an obvious replacement for DRS in this deck, I'm on Nic Fit and Deadguy for mid-range non-blue fair decks.

I disagree. Now that Baleful Strix is seeing less play, Tarmogoyf becomes way better. He clocks our combo opponents, and dominates the ground vs. opposing Tarmogoyfs and Nimble Mongoose. Losing green also means we lose Abrupt Decay. I think we can make Junk work, it'll just take a little bit more brain power.

After playing more matches, Lingering Souls actually seems underwhelming. I wonder if we can jam something "broken" in matchups where we can't grind. Something like stage depths to get free wins.

Another option is Green suns Zenith in the 1 drop slot. Thats my next to do list with testing

[KoDiamonds]

Land (23)
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (15)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Creature (10)
3x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

This is a rough draft. Green Suns has the highest ceiling for 1 drops here. Sure, we can be more maverick but I really want Thoughtseize + Hymn so its kind of a hybrid. Thoughts?

[Mr. Safety]

I disagree. Now that Baleful Strix is seeing less play, Tarmogoyf becomes way better. He clocks our combo opponents, and dominates the ground vs. opposing Tarmogoyfs and Nimble Mongoose. Losing green also means we lose Abrupt Decay. I think we can make Junk work, it'll just take a little bit more brain power.

After playing more matches, Lingering Souls actually seems underwhelming. I wonder if we can jam something "broken" in matchups where we can't grind. Something like stage depths to get free wins.

Another option is Green suns Zenith in the 1 drop slot. Thats my next to do list with testing

I think we are seeing different metagames. I know you do MODO a lot, but I only play locally. Strix is as prevalent as ever.

[KoDiamonds]

So how much does Assassins Trophy help us? Having a clean answer to Jace, Angler, Chalice all in one is pretty huge.

[Mr. Safety]

So how much does Assassins Trophy help us? Having a clean answer to Jace, Angler, Chalice all in one is pretty huge.

The only outliers are lands; we already had answers to all of those cards, and we even played Wastelands. It seems to be a very good catch-all card, but I'm not sure it makes Rock any more playable than before. *shrug* I could be convinced I guess, but I'm skeptical. The decks that are hard matchups play a bunch of basic lands (Miracles), card advantage (Grixis Control) or combo us in ways that ignore Ass Trophy (Storm, S&T.)

-Jace - I played maindeck Vindicate, sideboarded Pithing Needles and occasionally Maelstrom Pulse. Maindeck targeted discard was always around 6, sometimes as high as 8. We also have a very clear agro plan of attacking to win. Tarmogoyfs, Lingering Souls, SFM + Equips smashed into Jace pretty effectively.

-Angler - we're a Swords to Plowshares deck that also plays some number of Liliana of the Veil.

-Chalice - I've never gone below 2x Abrupt Decay, occasionally getting to up to 3. All of our most powerful cards are 2 mana (Bob, Goyf, SFM, Hymn). Sideboard always had some number of additional artifact/enchantment hate like Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, Golgari Charm, and even Disenchant occasionally. I didn't have too much trouble when I was running Rock against Chalice decks. The more dangerous card from that deck, in my opinion, was Blood Moon.

In summary: yes it answers all of those cards in one card, making it versatile, but Rock already had multiple answers and ways to play around those particular threats. The decks I always had trouble against were Miracles, Czech Pile, and Shardless (back in the day) because they have absurd levels of card advantage and ways to deal with multiple threats. If you put in Assassin's Trophy:

1) What do you take out?
2) If you run overall less removal because AssTrophy 'does it all', what are you putting into the open slots? Threats? Pw's? More discard?

[KoDiamonds]

Has anyone tried any BG Rock builds since the Deathrite ban? 3 colors seem difficult now without a mana dork. I wonder if we can also slide in the Stage Depths combo in a transformational sideboard? Thoughts on this?

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone tried any BG Rock builds since the Deathrite ban? 3 colors seem difficult now without a mana dork. I wonder if we can also slide in the Stage Depths combo in a transformational sideboard? Thoughts on this?

It worked awesome with DRS, but without it i've been on straight turbo depths with maindeck confidants. It plays a lot like bg rock post-board. I was skeptical about how grindy the deck could be, but i was pleasantly surprised. Depths has fast combos and the ability to grind. Its also easily customizable, which appeals to a lot of rock players.

Imho, its better to play fast combo and get grindy post board rather than start grindy and try to speed up post board. Just my thoughts, I've been really happy with turbo depths.

[sdematt]

Has anyone tried any BG Rock builds since the Deathrite ban? 3 colors seem difficult now without a mana dork. I wonder if we can also slide in the Stage Depths combo in a transformational sideboard? Thoughts on this?

I mean, if you're just going to go with BG Rock, then NicFit is likely just better than, no?

[KoDiamonds]

It worked awesome with DRS, but without it i've been on straight turbo depths with maindeck confidants. It plays a lot like bg rock post-board. I was skeptical about how grindy the deck could be, but i was pleasantly surprised. Depths has fast combos and the ability to grind. Its also easily customizable, which appeals to a lot of rock players.

Imho, its better to play fast combo and get grindy post board rather than start grindy and try to speed up post board. Just my thoughts, I've been really happy with turbo depths.

Would you mind posting or PMing me your list? Im curious how it would look. Is Slow Depths also an option? Just curious of Tarmogoyf is an option in this style.

[Mr. Safety]

No problem, will do.

EDIT: In regards to slow depths, it took *2* top8 slots at this most recent Eternal Weekend. I'm not sure if they are on David Long's list (Mox Diamond/Loam) or if it was just maindeck Decay/Library with additional threats (like Gurmag Angler.)

[KoDiamonds]

No problem, will do.

EDIT: In regards to slow depths, it took *2* top8 slots at this most recent Eternal Weekend. I'm not sure if they are on David Long's list (Mox Diamond/Loam) or if it was just maindeck Decay/Library with additional threats (like Gurmag Angler.)

Thanks for the work you put into getting those lists together! Delving more into it, the combo nature of the deck just isnt my style. I think Tireless Tracker is my favorite card and randomly going back a bunch of pages, Ive found that she was actually tested!
With DRS gone, we can probably try going up to 23-24 lands. With a creature suite of 4 Goyf, 3 Bob, 3 Tracker, along with 7 discard spells, 4 planeswalkers, and 2-3 Libraries, I wonder if Rock can be viable in this meta.
To be honest, I havent played legacy since the banning and I want to see if I can make a Tireless Tracker rock deck work. The deck seems pretty threat light however, but it looks built to grind with Bobs, Trackers, Libraries, and possibly Loam?

Im thinking out loud here, but does this skeleton have merit?

[morgan_coke]

I disagree. Now that Baleful Strix is seeing less play, Tarmogoyf becomes way better. He clocks our combo opponents, and dominates the ground vs. opposing Tarmogoyfs and Nimble Mongoose. Losing green also means we lose Abrupt Decay. I think we can make Junk work, it'll just take a little bit more brain power.

After playing more matches, Lingering Souls actually seems underwhelming. I wonder if we can jam something "broken" in matchups where we can't grind. Something like stage depths to get free wins.

Another option is Green suns Zenith in the 1 drop slot. Thats my next to do list with testing

Natural Order/Progenitus + some mana dorks + Cabal Therapy seems like it would cover that whole "free wins"/not clogging up the deck concept if you didn't want to go with the Depths/Stage combo.

[Mr. Safety]

There really isn't a card for Rock currently that tips the scales enough, IMHO. Tracker + 24 lands seems like a decent starting point. Maybe what you're looking for is something like Jund, where you can use Bloodbraid Elf to gain card advantage? In this metagame without DRS I think BBE seems pretty decent. I could definitely see a 24 land jund list with BBE + Tracker and having a very good grind plan.

[Mr. Safety]

Natural Order/Progenitus + some mana dorks + Cabal Therapy seems like it would cover that whole "free wins"/not clogging up the deck concept if you didn't want to go with the Depths/Stage combo.

I've done this before, way back, and it's pretty great out of the sideboard. It takes up only 5-6 slots if you build your deck accordingly (like 1-2x maindeck Dryad Arbor.) I can imagine a 7 card package: 4x NO and 3x silver bullets for specific matchups, probably Progenitus, Ruric Thar, and Carnage Tyrant. I debated doing this in Depths actually, just to give it an alternative win-condition against Death and Taxes (Progenitus FTW.)

EDIT: Confidants would have to be boarded out I think. NO + fatties raises your curve quite a bit and losing to blind Bob flips would give the feel-bads.

[CptHaddock]

What matchups are you even trying to solve with NO? Grixis is a rock deck that normally plays maindeck edicts, miracles has terminus. Any UBx fair deck is going to play edicts and even white decks now have an answer with judgement. If NO wasn't good post top ban there is absolutely no way it's viable now. If you want to play progenitus just cut all the bad cards from your deck and play TNN + cantrips.

[Mr. Safety]

What matchups are you even trying to solve with NO? Grixis is a rock deck that normally plays maindeck edicts, miracles has terminus. Any UBx fair deck is going to play edicts and even white decks now have an answer with judgement. If NO wasn't good post top ban there is absolutely no way it's viable now. If you want to play progenitus just cut all the bad cards from your deck and play TNN + cantrips.

In a deck with Lingering Souls, Natural Order into Progenitus is viable because the tokens protect from Edicts. If they have a wiper for the tokens and the edict for Progenitus, after several discards, then good on them. Miracles with Terminus is still a problem but Gaddock Teeg is a way to combat that situation, one easily accomplished with some number of main/side GSZ. Teeg has been in a staple in Rock sideboards since it was printed. It morphs Rock into an slower elves deck with better removal/disruption suite. TNN + Cantrips is definitely a way to go, provided you have the card pool available, but I can see the appeal of slamming Tarmogoyfs while opponent's are trying to dodge Progenitus. I call it the Splinter Twin philosophy, which I noticed back when Splinter Twin was a dominant force in Modern. The threat of the combo makes opponent's play differently, often losing to weird small dorks or Tarmogoyfs.

I may be speaking out of turn, but I think he's trying to find a way to put Rock into a similar power level to the rest of the format. With DRS it could somewhat keep up, without DRS it becomes essentially a worse version of any other mid-range deck. One way to continue playing Rock, but get the power level up to required levels, is to play Depths or Natural Order, discard into combo while threatening with Tarmogoyfs. I don't think he's trying to span any matchup gaps, just find a way to continue playing Rock. If I could play Rock in the current metagame I would, it's the deck that I started on in Legacy 10 years ago. I have gone full-tilt into Turbo Depths, which IMHO is the only truly viable 'Rock' type of deck in the current environment. It plays a lot of the same elements with discard, removal, confidants, libraries but can actually close out games super fast. I won't criticize someone trying to fly the Rock flag though, because I love the deck.

[mckeks91]

Hi guys, I newly registered here, but have been reading this (and some other) threads for 2 or more years now. I really loved The Rock when DRS was legal but now that its gone, it was really hard to find a list thats consistant and strong enough to be competitive. My first ever legacy deck that I still really love is Maverick.
So I decided to combine both of those decks, and it works really well so far, been testing it for 2 months now.

Lets start with the current list:

Creatures:
3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 BoP
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kotr
3 Lingering Souls
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Scooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 IoK

Removal:
4 STP
2 Ass Trophy

Grinders:
3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Lands:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extraction
1 Ass Trophy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad


Now some explanations:
In the Maindeck I cut the Hymn because without DRS they were hard to play on t2 consistantly without getting problems with wastelands. I also cut Goyfs because they are just bad these days. Kotr obv is the best beater if ure on Zenith so its autoinclude. Scooze, Ramunap and KoA are a great toolbox.
The 3 Souls Main are damn strong against the meta. 5 Discardspells for T1 have been great for me when DRS was legal, and they are still great now.
The Manadorks are great, but Im not sure if I want to cut 1 or to of them and then add the 4th Zenith instead. Thats something Im gonna try in the future. Sometimes it bad that the Dorks dont add B, but they arent DRS of course.

The most interesting things in the Maindeck should be 3 Sylvan and the Walkers. Well, 3 Sylvan has been the optimal for me because I want to find one in almost every game and Ive seen some other Rock lists playing 3 copies of it. They help in the mid- and lategame to avoid drawing discards or Manadorks when u dont want to draw them anymore.
As for the Walkers I found Last Hope just to be the better of the Lillys atm, but this might change if the meta changes. Sorin is an idea I stole from the DGA lists and it is really really strong so far, even though Ive only drawn him a few times. Maybe another cmc 4 tokengenerating Walker would be as good/better. Ill test it a little more.
Volraths Stronghold is an idea I got from the Maverick Discord Channel and it is really strong in this deck.

The Sideboard:
I cut hymn from the Maindeck because of the double black costs but I want them against Miracels, Grixis and Combo so I kept them in SB.
In the gravehateslots I split between Surgical and Spellbomb because Spellbomb also comes in against so many decks and cantrips. It really helps fighting Snappys even if u dont use it ur opponent has to avoid running into it if its in play. But Im not sure if I want to stay at 4 gravehate tbh.
The Zealous and Trophies in SB should be obv, and so are Teeg and Qasali in a GSZ build.
The additional Souls and Sorin are flexslots Im trying out atm. One of those cards will always stay a card for the control MU, the other might be something different depending on the meta.

Cards I tested but didnt like:

Choke. This card is really good sometimes in the control MU but sometimes it is just bad or doesnt really help since ure already too much behind. Walkers and Souls are way better for the control MUs and can also be used in nonblue MUs.
SFM package. I know its a sacrilege to play Souls with Stoneforge but I cut him when DRS was legal and Im still happy with it. The deck cant afford spending so many slots to this card. Its strong, but I cant afford to run them cause of space. And I know its strenghts since i played it before in the Rock and in DNT , and I still run it in Punishing Maverick. If I had a 70 cards deck, I would run it.
Walking Ballista. Another Idea from the Maverick Discord. It was okay, but all in all, Souls and Lilly just do the grinding better then Ballista. Might give it another try if DNT becomes huge again.
Tarmogoyf. Maybe I can add a single copy as a GSZ target because I love goyf, but its just way worse than Kotr and even Kotr has some problems because of Strix and Push being everywhere.
Liliana of the Veil. Man is this card great. I really love her (and the artwork is great as well :P )but without hymn and DRS she became worse. We cant often afford to paly her T2 because Hierarchs dont make black and we dont want to fetch our nonbasics in most MUs. Also I found Last hope to be better in the late and midgame since without hymn we wont hellbent our opponents really often.
Tireles Tracker. I never ever ever liked this guy even though I tried it out in Maverick and The Rock.

Cards I still want to test:
Thrun. Always not sure if he is better than a Walker when ure on GSZ.
Mystic Enforcer. Another idea from the Maverick discord and I want to try it because it seems really cute.
Cabal Pit. With Kotr and Ramunap and a deck that gets to threshold really fast this land might be awesome. I just dont know what to cut for it yet.

Sry if my english isnt that good and also sry for the really long post.
Any thought and criticism welcome.

[Megadeus]

No Green sun means your random singletons that you usually would like in Maverick are bad. Especially Dryad Arbor.

[mckeks91]

Hahaha ofc i run 3 GSZ :D
Otherwise I wouldnt have mentioned it that often in my explanations. just forgot to add it to the list, ill change that, sry

[sdematt]

No Green sun means your random singletons that you usually would like in Maverick are bad. Especially Dryad Arbor.

So, maybe we just basically revert to my SCG list from 2012 minus DRS? Miracles was and still is around, same with Sneak, Delver, Dredge, etc. Maybe just some tweaks?

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Rock took 1st at a small event recently, fairly streamlined version. It's pretty close to what I've played in the past. I think it's missing a couple cards, probably some number of Lingering souls or maybe going the Knight route with 24 lands. With 4x SFM those souls tokens would really take it over the top against decks like Miracles and Grixis control, but they obviously didn't have too much trouble coming in first. Twelve players, not a big event, but still noteworthy enough for mtgtop8.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20702&f=LE

[Mr. Safety]

I've been thinking lately that Rock is going the way of Zoo; playing efficient disruption and threats just isn't enough anymore. Dark Depths is a better BG mid-range deck, Stoneblade is a better white-based agro control deck, and Nic Fit is better at going big with value. Wasteland isn't as effective by itself anymore at providing enough of a tempo hitch for Goyf to finish the job. Liliana of the Veil is seeing less and less play. Deathrite Shaman is banned. We're in the stone ages with Rock, and I don't think it's going to survive without something new.

Curious what dedicated Rock players thinks about the last year of metagame shifts/bans and how it has affected this deck. This used to be my go-to deck for tournaments, giving even odds across the board with ways to outplay opponents. I'm nowhere near that optimistic anymore. Nic Fit, Jund, even Shardless BUG has fallen by the wayside in the face of the Grixis/Miracles control overlords.

[pettdan]

I used to play The Rock a couple of years ago, it was great at stomping Miracles when it seemed like no other deck could (apart from Cloudpost I guess). I'm guessing it still can, so that may be where it catches life again. I don't remember what meta change caused the deck to disappear but I've considered it more or less dead for something like two years. I think it happened when blue decks realized they could play Deathrite and get away with it. When the opponent has Brainstorms they tend to end up winning the Deathrite battle, they somehow always draw a better combination of Deathrites and removal for your Deathrites, while also getting the upside of FoW against fast combo decks. I'm not sure that is all correct, but maybe to some degree. Grixis Delver had Pyromancer - Probe - Therapy to compete with the Rock's Lingering Souls and Hymns too; more mana efficient and synergistic. And TNN to beat the Rock's goyfs. Like someone said recently in another thread, Fatal Push eating goyf could be involved too, making Goyf seem less relevant, but Lingering Souls laughs at Push so I don't know. I think the deck was just ouclassed by Grixis Delver.

When I look at rebuilding the Rock, which I try a few times every year, I try to get a lot of card draw and library manipulation or tutors to offset the blue decks' advantage, with a combination of Sylvan Libraries, GSZ's and Tireless Tracker and Ramunap Excavator I want to think that's doable..

[Mr. Safety]

I used to play The Rock a couple of years ago, it was great at stomping Miracles when it seemed like no other deck could (apart from Cloudpost I guess). I'm guessing it still can, so that may be where it catches life again. I don't remember what meta change caused the deck to disappear but I've considered it more or less dead for something like two years. I think it happened when blue decks realized they could play Deathrite and get away with it. When the opponent has Brainstorms they tend to end up winning the Deathrite battle, they somehow always draw a better combination of Deathrites and removal for your Deathrites, while also getting the upside of FoW against fast combo decks. I'm not sure that is all correct, but maybe to some degree. Grixis Delver had Pyromancer - Probe - Therapy to compete with the Rock's Lingering Souls and Hymns too; more mana efficient and synergistic. And TNN to beat the Rock's goyfs. Like someone said recently in another thread, Fatal Push eating goyf could be involved too, making Goyf seem less relevant, but Lingering Souls laughs at Push so I don't know. I think the deck was just ouclassed by Grixis Delver.

When I look at rebuilding the Rock, which I try a few times every year, I try to get a lot of card draw and library manipulation or tutors to offset the blue decks' advantage, with a combination of Sylvan Libraries, GSZ's and Tireless Tracker and Ramunap Excavator I want to think that's doable..

Once you commit to GSZ, Tracker, and Library you really have to consider if Nic Fit or Maveric are the better options, and those aren't doing anything notable in the format either. More than anything else it seems that mid-range, for the most part, just isn't a winning strategy at the moment. If there was ever an archetypal mid-range deck, Rock is it. I guess what I'm driving at is this: it needs something new to breathe new life into it. Tracker was a pretty incredible printing for mid-range decks but it doesn't do nearly enough for this deck, especially at 3 mana with the lean mana-base that Rock carries.

[pettdan]

Once you commit to GSZ, Tracker, and Library you really have to consider if Nic Fit or Maveric are the better options, and those aren't doing anything notable in the format either. More than anything else it seems that mid-range, for the most part, just isn't a winning strategy at the moment. If there was ever an archetypal mid-range deck, Rock is it. I guess what I'm driving at is this: it needs something new to breathe new life into it. Tracker was a pretty incredible printing for mid-range decks but it doesn't do nearly enough for this deck, especially at 3 mana with the lean mana-base that Rock carries.

The Rock functions very differently from those decks though, with a heavy discard theme and card advantage threats. Maverick suffers from having too few relevant threats vs Miracles and Grixis Control, I think this is the experience of most Maverick players with some notable exception. Cards like Dark Confidant, Lingering Souls and Sylvan Library can really pressure a control deck, sometimes they (Confidant, Souls) are tried when Maverick players try to step up their game vs Control but for the Rock they are played in multiples in the maindeck (maybe not always, but often). It may be that the introduction of Liliana the Last Hope has changed this, for Grixis Control at least, I don't know, but she can really deal with those cards efficiently. [Edit: of course, you can also argue that Grixis Control is the new The Rock/Jund deck, being a card-advantage focused attrition deck]

The problem for the Rock is probably the late game topdecks due to playing a lot of discard and no cantrips. That's why I think GSZ is needed to get the deck back in competition, and I skip Goyf in my lists because he is not an impressive threat anymore. But CMC3 for Tracker is a problem, I agree, but it's a problem that GSZ is well equipped to handle since the card adjusts to your available mana. Apparantly this is an open problem though, I know it has been for me when trying to build such a deck.

Nic Fit is also a different deck, and of course there are many versions, but a common problem is that Veteran Explorer is equally useful for Miracles and Grixis Control so you're at a disadvantage by playing this card already in those matchups. Where Nic Fit plays Veteran Explorer, The Rock is instead full of cards that pressure Miracles and Grixis Control. Or well, I argued whether that is still the case above, but that's another discussion.

tl;dr: I think The Rock has unique values that makes it relevant for consideration next to Maverick and Nic Fit. Edit: but it's questionable if it's worth trying to build The Rock over Grixis Control..

[Mr. Safety]

Good summary, I think we are on the same page. I really think the deck needs something new to push it's viability again. GSZ could be that element, but I'm skeptical.

[mckeks91]

As for me gsz absolutely is the answer were looking for. I also think goyf isnt really good atm but still neccassary and the best beater we have unless we want to play kotr as another 3drop. I really think we should just replace old lilly with her New sister since she is waaaayyy better These days. It deals with annoying strixes and is a threat on its own.
I still love the list I Posted the page before but i changed kotr for goyf again and im trying to cut the nobles for either hymn or decay. Also 3 sylvan libraries feels really strong as does gsz.

[Erdvermampfa]

What about Deranged Hermit + Phyrexian Plaguelord + Genesis / Recurring Nightmare?

[CptHaddock]

Ya'll are some strange folks. Why do you keep on trying various GSZ based builds when you clearly admit that they don't function, force deckbuilding restrictions that aren't good vs the format and are better engines in other decks? It's not 2011, you can't play random cards in your (nonblue) rock deck and hope to win games. People actually understand this format now, every deck has gotten more efficient especially the blue ones. So if they're playing the best cards in their respective archetypes why are you playing subpar cards in your deck?

[Hanni]

The problem is that there is no longer a reason to play green, black, and white cards in the same deck anymore. What is The Rock even doing with green anymore? Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay? You no longer need green to have access to large efficient creatures. If you're playing white, you don't really need Abrupt Decay to deal with non-creature permanents, especially now that Sensei's Divining Top is banned.

Or likewise, why do you need white if you're in black and green? Swords to Plowshares? Black has Fatal Push now, as well as Diabolic Edict. You don't need access to Disenchant, Vindicate, or Council's Judgment when you have access to Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, and Krosan Grip. Stoneforge Mystic? There are other grindy creatures that are good against opposing aggro decks in other colors, particularly in blue.

The point I'm making is that this color combination is no longer unique. There is a lot of overlap between the tools available in these colors. Blue is simply a much better color to be in, whether you're going Esper, Sultai, Grixis, etc.

I used to love this color combination. There was a time when Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and Knight of the Reliquary were unrivaled. That simply isn't the case anymore. That's not to say that they don't print some sort of Leovold-esque card in BWG that crushes the format and makes this color combination relevant again... but that doesn't seem likely.

The best thing this color combination has going for it right now, in my opinion, is Choke... maybe if they printed a choke with legs? BWG for a 4/4 with the rules text of Choke would be a pretty strong reason to move back into Abzan colors...

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with both of you, CaptHaddock and Hanni. I was playing the role of 'bearer of bad news'. I do think new cards could give the deck more play, but it would have to be something unique and frankly really fucking good . It would have to be something like a more efficient siege rhino, a maindeckable blue-hate card, or something like tireless tracker that didn't belong better in a blue deck. We'll see what the next few sets bring.

[morgan_coke]

Has anyone tried running Painful Truths in here? It's just a big 'ol pile of CA for not a ton of mana. That or OG Elspeth or Nissa or something? I mean, I know everyone loves the current setup, but it's pretty clearly not working anymore - at least not in this meta. Blue decks generally run about 10-14 pieces of "air" - cantrips. BG has similar tools, they've just fallen out of fashion because they're not 1 mana and universal, but they're often more powerful. Natural Order, Painful Truths, Read the Bones, Diabolic Intent, Green Sun's Zenith, Night's Whisper.. there's a lot of options. Maybe it's time to just commit to running X number of "air" cards ourselves. There are ways to profitably trade in "useless" late card draws like birds/elves/discard through things like Collective Brutality/Diabolic Intent etc.

Maybe drop white? How about something like:

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Eternal Witness
1x Progenitus

4x Natural Order
2x Read the Bones
3x Diabolic Intent

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Collective Brutality

4x Assassin's Trophy

1x Damnation
1x Choke
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Bayou
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold

[Mr. Safety]

How is that setup better than BG Depths? I'll save you the effort: it isn't. Depths is one of the strategies pushing 'fair-er' versions out of the metagame. Painful Truths has been in/out of Rock decks since it was printed, generally not being as good as Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant. The painful truth (see what I did there?) is that blue versions of value-based mid-range/control are just plain better. Red is even better at providing value with KCommand and Punishing Fire. Deathrite Shaman provided at least a somewhat level playing field, but without it this deck falls way behind. I'm also going to pretend I didn't see Read the Bones in your decklist, it doesn't pass the straight face test against even the other card you mentioned (Painful Truths.) That list is begging for Veteran Explorer and GSZ, which means it's just a worse version of Nic Fit.

[morgan_coke]

Chillax bro, I know it's a terrible list. I put Read the Bones in because you need three colors for Painful Truths to work and I wanted to list something other than Night's Whisper to just be cute.
I just threw it out there in 30 seconds to point out that we can make different lists than what we're doing now, because again, what we're doing now ISN'T FUCKING WORKING.
So good job for pointing out, again, that current builds of Rock aren't great and have issues. Because nobody in this thread knew that until you said something.

[Mr. Safety]

Chillax-ing in progress, sorry I was so abrasive.

[Hanni]

Adding card advantage doesn't change the fact that blue is doing what you are doing better. You already have solid card advantage options with Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, and Sylvan Library. Not to mention cards like Mother of Runes, Hymn to Tourach, Planeswalkers, etc. Card advantage isn't the problem.

Blue is just a better color for playing the midrange plan these days. The uniqueness of the Abzan color combination is no longer necessary with all of the recent printings that have added new threats and answers to other colors.

Choke aside, I think the next greatest strength here is the ability to play mana dorks. GSZ/Arbor and Hierarch to consistently ramp out powerful 3 drops sounds attractive. The problem, though, is that two of the best 3 drops are blue (TNN and Leovold). You can try and run Ramunap, Knight, and Tracker instead, but I'd rather be jamming TNN and Leovold myself. I think Elves is a better Natural Order deck, but maybe that's a possible way forward here.

[CptHaddock]

adding card advantage doesn't change the fact that blue is doing what you are doing better. You already have solid card advantage options with dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, and sylvan library. Not to mention cards like mother of runes, hymn to tourach, planeswalkers, etc. Card advantage isn't the problem.

Blue is just a better color for playing the midrange plan these days. The uniqueness of the abzan color combination is no longer necessary with all of the recent printings that have added new threats and answers to other colors.

Choke aside, i think the next greatest strength here is the ability to play mana dorks. Gsz/arbor and hierarch to consistently ramp out powerful 3 drops sounds attractive. The problem, though, is that two of the best 3 drops are blue (tnn and leovold). You can try and run ramunap, knight, and tracker instead, but i'd rather be jamming tnn and leovold myself. I think elves is a better natural order deck, but maybe that's a possible way forward here.

Hey guys look at me did you know that adding brainstorm and blue cards to your decks makes it better?

Now check out this brew where i have a 99% win rate at local 5 person events. I have truly broken the format!

[Hanni]

Hey guys look at me did you know that adding brainstorm and blue cards to your decks makes it better?

Now check out this brew where i have a 99% win rate at local 5 person events. I have truly broken the format!

Okay? Not really sure what you're getting at. Your first paragraph makes it sound like you're saying that I'm stating the obvious, while the second paragraph makes it sound like I'm not. What was the point you were trying to get at? Was this meant to be a personal attack? Because if it was, you failed miserably.

[CptHaddock]

Okay? Not really sure what you're getting at. You're first paragraph makes it sound like you're saying that I'm stating the obvious, while the second paragraph makes it sound like I'm not. What was the point you were trying to get at? Was this meant to be a personal attack? Because if it was, you failed miserably.

I just wanted to emulate someone I am a big fan of by doing a scorching hot take like they would.

[Mr. Safety]

So mana dorks...what would that look like? I think it ends up looking a lot like Dark Maverick, essentially cutting MoM's for additional discard/interaction, a smaller GSZ package, Bobs/Library, and still trying to incorporate Goyfs/SFM package. It's more aggressive than Maverick but less aggressive than previous versions. Knight and GSZ address the various dickheads of the format with Karakas, Bog, RecSage, Scooze.

3x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Maze of Ith
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Duress
2x Choke



So, maybe we just basically revert to my SCG list from 2012 minus DRS? Miracles was and still is around, same with Sneak, Delver, Dredge, etc. Maybe just some tweaks?

-Matt

Care to share?

[morgan_coke]

Isn't Knight of Autumn just straight up better than Rec Sage if you're in both Green and White?

Also, is the SFM package worth running without Batterskull? Wouldn't a pair of Jitte's with no SFM just be better in that case?

Is it still worth it to run Tarmogoyf if you've already got a huge graveyard beater in KotR?

I don't see that mana base hitting BB on turn two too often, wouldn't you be better off with IoK and Brutality in place of those Hymns then?

I mean, overall, I like the list, just trying to help it along by asking questions.

EDIT: I was thinking about how nobody runs Siege Rhino anymore, what would it take to make him viable? Would even adding the words "draw a card" do it?

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't Knight of Autumn just straight up better than Rec Sage if you're in both Green and White?

Also, is the SFM package worth running without Batterskull? Wouldn't a pair of Jitte's with no SFM just be better in that case?

Is it still worth it to run Tarmogoyf if you've already got a huge graveyard beater in KotR?

I don't see that mana base hitting BB on turn two too often, wouldn't you be better off with IoK and Brutality in place of those Hymns then?

I mean, overall, I like the list, just trying to help it along by asking questions.

EDIT: I was thinking about how nobody runs Siege Rhino anymore, what would it take to make him viable? Would even adding the words "draw a card" do it?

Knight of Autumn is a straight upgrade for sure. This was literally just a spitball list using a template of 16 threats, 22- 24 lands, the rest interaction and card advantage.

Brutality without synergy seems bad, as in no souls. I like your idea of dropping sfm for rhinos. Goyfs are there to have another beefy threat, something that can close a game by itself. Rhinos aren't bar, its just steep at 4 mana and hurts with bob flips.

Sfm does seem slow, even though it is technically card advantage. I think:

-3 sfm
-1 sofi
-2 hymn
-1 recsage
+2 duress/iok
+1 goyf
+1 bob
+2 rhino
+1 knight of autumn

Also, double black means it probably needs -1 savannah, +1 scrubland, maybe an urborg.

[sdematt]

My list from 2012 was contained in the article I wrote after that tournament:

http://www.eternalcentral.com/rocking-junk-why-you-do-not-need-to-play-blue-to-win-in-legacy/

[Business] (39)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman


3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maze of Ith

[Mana Sources] (22)
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains



[Sideboard] (15)
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Virtue’s Ruin
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Timely Reinforcements


---------------------------------------------

Basically, the plan was dudes, flexibility, and beating face. My tournament run starts on Page 192 of this thread.

As we now know, 3 Deathrite was obviously wrong, however, very few people actually ran DRS and did well in that tournament. I was hesitant on the card, but it was obviously amazing all tournament long. For today, I still think Goyf is a fine beater, but SFM allows you to have a tad more flex in getting past TNN's, especially with Souls. Knight was always great, but now might only be okay since we're slowin' down. Realistically, we still come back to the issues we had before: how do we stabilize mana production in the early game, allowing us to cast these good multicoloured spells, while not succumbing to dead draws later on? In addition, blue has way more advantage going for it now than in 2012. I agree, this does make it harder to justify playing these colours (and realistically, Nic Fit might be the better deck especially in the meta), but that doesn't mean one gives up.

I think there's still play in running a Junky midrange deck that has some tools in the toolbox.

So, you could run something like:

3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Knight of the Reliquary
13

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
14

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Sylvan Library
11

23 Lands


Board:

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn To Tourach
3 Choke
+5 since I'm not as familiar on the metagame.

Just brainstorming...

[pettdan]

Could it be worth trying replacing the Goyfs by Scavenging Oozes, running 4 of them? And maybe 1-2 Goyf to get with GSZ when needed, I'd skip though. Ooze in multiples may keep both Miracles and Grixis Control off of some of their removal and card advantage, no more Accumulated Knowledges or Snapcaster doubling up on removal. And strong g1 interaction vs graveyard-based decks, a bit slow vs Reanimator but at least with lots of discard there is a fair chance of slowing them down a bit (like every third game or so). At least on paper it helps vs both snapcaster-decks and graveyard-based decks and these are rather well positioned now. I guess it may not quite be good enough..

[Megadeus]

If you go to something Noble Hierarch Scooze gets better. Turn 2 with Open activation on Scooze against Reanimator is really good on the play

[KoDiamonds]

I'm finally able to start dabbling on my post DRS project, just straight BG Rock. The 3rd color always felt cumbersome even with Deathrite so hopefully only being on 2 colors will make the deck smoother, similar to the modern version. Incoming super SUPER rough draft.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Creatures (11)
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

Sorcerys (13)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life From the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instants (8)
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Diabolic Edict

Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Enchantments (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafidgger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction

I like the core of the main deck, just need to work out the final details. The sideboard needs major work since I have no idea what the legacy meta is online.

1) I was teetering between Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox but I ended up with Green Sun's Zenith as our accelerator. Sure, we can't Turn 1 Hymn, but as a grindy deck, I don't think we can take the hit on card advantage with those 2 cards. I just like how T1 it's an accelerator, and late game, it's an extra beater in Goyf/Scooze/ etc.

2) This also leads to how awkward the mana is. T1 Zenith for Arbor DOES NOT help cast Hymn on Turn 2. I might have to swap Treetop Village for Hissing Quagmires to increase the amount of black sources, but that's a pretty hefty sacrifice. Overall, I count 14 black sources. REALLY low. This is the area I probably need the most help after the Sideboard. I just like the idea of recurring Cabal Pit and Horizon Canopy with Loam so I'm trying this little package out. I could also run an Urborg maybe?

3) Like I said, the sideboard needs help. I haven't played Legacy since DRS was banned so I have no idea how the meta is shaped. Should I run Damping Sphere for Storm? Marsh Casualties for D&T/Elves instead of Golgari Charm? Are there any other combo hate sideboard cards BG has access to?

4) I might have 1 or 2 too many removal spells main, so I might swap a Bitterblossom to the main.

Let me know what you guys think!

[Mr. Safety]

That's the 'fairest' pile of good stuff I've seen in a long time. I love that you're fighting the good fight, but it seems to need something that pushes it over the edge. Maybe Phyrexian Obliterator or something similar.

[tescrin]

I too am coming off my long hiatus I think; but I'm dabblin' elsewhere. You've noted one of the biggest annoyances with GSZ and Noble Hierarch is that, unlike DRS; they get you more green mana, but not necessarily the colors you want. For straight BG I'd consider starting from:

3 Bitterblossom
4 Goyf
2 Equips (2 jitte or jitte/SoFaI)

3-4 Cabal Therapy(?)
3 Collective Brutality

There's a lot of nifty synergies in there. Blossom + Equips, dead-Blossom + Goyf, Brutality + Therapy, Brutality->drop-blossom->play Goyf. Jitte + Brutality also turn you from instant-lose to Burn to probably 50/50. Brutality is that good against the IMO.

Then I'd fill it out to have a more even curve:

Creatures (11)
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

Sorcerys (12)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life From the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instants (5)
3 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments (5)
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Bitterblossom

Artifacts (5):
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

For the Chrome Mox i'd remove 3 lands. Chrome Mox can:
* Buff Goyf when destroyed
* Be discarded to Brutality/Lily when useless
* Be pushed away by Mirri's Guile
* Allows T1 DC or Blossom; which are must-answer
* Can use its trigger on useless cards in your hand' making them relevant for the MU/board-state

Also, if Lily is your only BB, your manabase will be more stable. Guile works better with Confidant and your life-total matters a lot more when you're dropping your only lifegain in the deck. Loams just felt right next to brutality/lily/guile (clears your top-decks, gets stuff to self-discard.) This deck is much more aggressive as well, while Blossoms/Mox's also help you survive Blood Moon/Lands MUs/Miracles (because Blossom sometimes wins by itself.)

[KoDiamonds]

Thanks for the input guys!


That's the 'fairest' pile of good stuff I've seen in a long time. I love that you're fighting the good fight, but it seems to need something that pushes it over the edge. Maybe Phyrexian Obliterator or something similar.
Im waiting for the day to Loam + Wasteland out a guy with a Tireless Tracker in play 😍😍😍



I too am coming off my long hiatus I think; but I'm dabblin' elsewhere. You've noted one of the biggest annoyances with GSZ and Noble Hierarch is that, unlike DRS; they get you more green mana, but not necessarily the colors you want. For straight BG I'd consider starting from:

3 Bitterblossom
4 Goyf
2 Equips (2 jitte or jitte/SoFaI)

3-4 Cabal Therapy(?)
3 Collective Brutality

There's a lot of nifty synergies in there. Blossom + Equips, dead-Blossom + Goyf, Brutality + Therapy, Brutality->drop-blossom->play Goyf. Jitte + Brutality also turn you from instant-lose to Burn to probably 50/50. Brutality is that good against the IMO.

Then I'd fill it out to have a more even curve:

Creatures (11)
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

Sorcerys (12)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life From the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Instants (5)
3 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments (5)
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Bitterblossom

Artifacts (5):
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

For the Chrome Mox i'd remove 3 lands. Chrome Mox can:
* Buff Goyf when destroyed
* Be discarded to Brutality/Lily when useless
* Be pushed away by Mirri's Guile
* Allows T1 DC or Blossom; which are must-answer
* Can use its trigger on useless cards in your hand' making them relevant for the MU/board-state

Also, if Lily is your only BB, your manabase will be more stable. Guile works better with Confidant and your life-total matters a lot more when you're dropping your only lifegain in the deck. Loams just felt right next to brutality/lily/guile (clears your top-decks, gets stuff to self-discard.) This deck is much more aggressive as well, while Blossoms/Mox's also help you survive Blood Moon/Lands MUs/Miracles (because Blossom sometimes wins by itself.)

I am not a fan of Cabal Therapy in this deck. You NEED your turn 1 interaction to hit something. And the flashback cost isnt nothing, even with Bitterblossom. And for you to curve out with T1 Therapy, T2 Blossom, T3 Flashback, itll be too slow.

I might run 1 or 2 Blossom main, but I like the idea of Brutality over Hymn. Itll probably let my unforgiving manabase slide, since it only requires 1 black source, unlike Hymn.

I am not a fan of Chrome Mox + 20 Lands however. It kind of Nombos with Tireless Tracker. I tested a couple matches already and REALLY like Green Suns Zenith, because its not a bad topdeck. Late game tracker + land is HUGE.

The equipment I am a little iffy on. I wanted to run 2 Jitte, but since I cut Stoneforge, I am unsure if it is worth it without a tutor effect. However, if I swap around my discard/removal suite by adding 2 Brutality and 2 Blossom, I can probabltly fit 2 Jitte somewhere. Escalating, discarding extra Blossoms and Jittes to grow Goyf seems great.

Ill try to post a second draft later this weekend but seems like a good start. Thanks everyone! More input is also welcome :)

[Mr. Safety]

If you don't have synergies I would only suggest Therapy as discard #5+. It works very well if you know what to name or if you've Thoughtseized/Brutalitied first, but that is rare. Synergies help make it better (Explorer) but that's another deck.

[tescrin]

I haven't been big on a 4th thoughtseize in many years. Even after getting into blue, 4 TS just hurts so badly against aggro when you draw 3-4 of 'em. If running #4 I always turn it into Therapy, IoK, Duress, Brutality.. something. Never again i say!

I mostly suggested Therapy as the Brutality synergy is just neat; but I'll admit there's not tons to sac here. That said, Therapy is a nice way to turn a random creature card into more interaction against combo in a pinch, so I wouldn't completely discount it. Not sure what I'd put in those slots, but some form of color-light disruption seems prudent (probably IoK's, as a 3/3/3 split of TS/IoK/Sculler has treated DGA well for ages)

I still would consider the Mox's. DGA seems to be using them to effect right now and it seems like a nice fit with all the discard; T1 bobs/blossoms also sound pretty nice (where Bob can replace the card loss early.) Mox's may also make me more comfortable about Hymn, given that you'll be more-able to get rid of uncastables; and this deck seems to really want more ways to get stuff going T1.

Jitte's mostly a mention because Blossom => equips; you'll find that back when The Gate was a thing that's what they did; largely as a concession to Bob/Blossom/TS killing themselves.

Hope that helps explain all the funky mentions

[Mr. Safety]

Something along the lines of a Kitchen Finks would be pretty awesome with Therapy. I've always wondered if Strangleroot Geist is playable in Legacy. It probably isn't but the 'cool stuff' interaction with Therapy seems decent. T1 Therapy, t2 Geist > flashback therapy > attack for 3.

I've messed around with Eternal Witness/Unearth combos as well. Don't get me wrong, I love Cabal Therapy and it has always served me well. I don't suggest EW/Unearth unless you're looking for a grindier deck. Right now your list is still quite aggressive, which is likely better. If you decided to go deeper into something like Green Sun's Zenith then Witness gets really good.

One thing I've been doing is maindecking a Dryad Arbor in Turbo Depths for Cabal Therapy synergy. Every fetchland turns into a 2nd Therapy, and with your deck already sporting a couple Loams I think it's a safe inclusion. I'm assuming a full set of Wastelands to justify the Loams?

Another card that is incredible with Brutality/Therapy is Lingering Souls. I know you aren't splashing white, and I'm not recommending it, but my Deadguy Ale projects have been focused on those synergies.

EDIT: Almost forgot: Smuggler's Copter. This seems very good with Bitterblossom tokens that are summoning sick and Dark Confidant (which you don't want to attack with very often.) Even an outclassed Scooze gets upgraded, and if you work in Dryad Arbor it can also activate the Copter (even while summoning sick.) I would play some number of Jitte and Copter as your 'equipment'.

[CptHaddock]

What is wrong with you people? Why is that anytime someone posts a list that is reasonable in this thread, you give the worst possible takes about the list???

[Mr. Safety]

What is wrong with you people? Why is that anytime someone posts a list that is reasonable in this thread, you give the worst possible takes about the list???

Explain.

[mckeks91]

Hey there, sorry for the really late response.
I`ve been on the GSZ package in The Rock since the day DRS got banned now and its really great even though you need to make some changes. I cut the Hymn because double Black was really hard to consistantly hit on T2 and I also cut the Stoneforges since they`re soooooo bad against KCommand. But I would never cut White because of Lingering Souls and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Those cards win about 80% of the control MUs on its own.
Right now my list is:
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Zenith
3 Souls (4th in Side)
1 Ooze
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

3 TS
2 IoK
3 STP
2 Decay
2 Trophy

3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

22 Lands

I Know its 61 cards but I dont mind that because i really love all those cards.
What Im gonna try during the next tests will be - Confidant and STPs, + Noble Hierarch and Palace Jailer with the 4th Souls Main.
After cutting the Hymns and Lilly Veils I felt like the Confidants have always been bad or medicore at best since we dont do the classic 1 for 1 CA game anymore. If we would, we would loose to to Miracels as well as Grixis. So instead we have to up the threat density. Thats why I love the GSZ so much, because we run like 8 Tarmogoyfs along with enough ways to deal with Baleful Strix. And if we get hymned, we have Library, Souls and our Walkers, especially Sorin, to have a really huge topdeck game. I have tried Bitterblossom instead of Bobs but didnt really like it tbh. They often came either too late or have been not aggressive enough to win the game unless it was against Miracels.
So Im gonna try Jailer just to have an infitie Card draw that doesnt hurt our life totals or can die to removal. I`ve tried Jailer in Maverick and it felt really great so it might be great with Souls and Sorin token to chump as well. I Know it sounds a little contrarary cutting Bob because its bad and adding Jailer for CA but they play very differently.

Im up for any critics and comments but please guys, I won`t paly stuff like Strangleroot Geist or multiple Collective Brutalitys, I wont to be a competetive Legacy deck and not an EDH fringe pile.

[CptHaddock]

Hymn and SFM are some of this archetype's best cards to attack the format, why are you cutting them? SFM helps you stabilize and take over games against all the aggressive decks e.g. delver and hymn lets you fight against all the control decks in the format. KCommand is going to be a 2 for 1 regardless of if you're going to play SFM or not, so that is a silly not to play that card. It's actually not that hard to play around kcommand out of grixis, playing right into it is how you lose that matchup 90% of the time. You are generating virtual card advantage by forcing them to keep 3 mana open each turn, and if you are committing things to the board you are coming out quite a bit ahead.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a planeswalker top end, imo if you're playing junk that is exactly what your top end should be. There aren't any creatures cmc 3+ that are really worth playing on their own. I know that you're coming from a maverick background but GSZ is just bad in this deck, a lot of the silver bullets aren't worth running because Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy and Discard take care the majority of the problems that you might run into. I haven't really felt the need for goyfs 5-8 in any game, I can usually find a threat via sylvan library when I need to start ending the game. In games vs Grixis/Miracles I actually cut my goyfs and replace them with more durable threats e.g. planeswalkers, bitterblossom, choke, etc.

edit: You should also be playing some amount of Liliana the Last Hope, she's a card tailor made for this archetype in that she attacks both fair and unfair decks while synergizing with cards like lingering souls.

[tescrin]

Im up for any critics and comments but please guys, I won`t paly stuff like Strangleroot Geist or multiple Collective Brutalitys, I wont to be a competetive Legacy deck and not an EDH fringe pile.

Since my snarky comment was deleted, I guess I'll post one that is informative:

I don't get why you think Collective Brutality is bad.
-> It synergizes with Bob by getting you life by expending garbage cards that you can't use (such as Land #6)
-> It is a Bye against burn, which you will currently be like 20/80 against. Not exaggerating.
-> It's never dead; which makes it like a lot like Liliana of the Veil (where it's removal against creature decks, discard against combo, and is a discard outlet for garbage to boot)
-> It's especially good against Elves, for example, killing a dude and grabbing one of their combo pieces in one go the turn that they could normally kill you
-> Storm occasionally brings in Dark Confidants, Xanthid Swarms (more relevant for blue obviously) or similar. CB happens to fill both roles as a disrupter AND a hedge against obnoxious creatures.

CB not only increases your chances in bad MUs, but it can filter your hand; much like Liliana.
Note: Lily of the Veil is not efficient either. Usually she's a 3-mana sorcery speed Edict, and she's somewhat relevant against Combo decks when you have garbage cards you can pitch while limiting their combo pieces. The reason she's good is that she is conditionally very efficient.
____________
I would also echo everything haddock said; except I'd say Garruk Relentless is better than Sorin. Easier to cast by *a lot*, produces better tokens, is removal in a pinch (which this deck likes to spam.) Sorin's -2 is interesting; but I have used it before and it tends to be "win more" rather than "is good"

[CptHaddock]

I think that brutality is a super mediocre card the majority of the time outside of the burn/ur burn matchups. It usually just ends up being a 2 mana duress or 2 mana disfigure and for 2 cmc you can just play with cards that are leagues better in hymn, decay and trophy. If you want more discard you can even do hymns 5-9 in the form of gerrard's verdict.

I think that Garruk is the worst of the 3, Sorin synergizes better with lingering souls, clumps of squires and bobs and can also move your goyfs past the threshold where they can trade with an angler (worst case).

[mckeks91]

First of all, thanks for the feedback. Also thanks for your explanation about Brutality, you describe exactly how I felt about it when I played it. Imo its just a reasonable SB card but not for the maindeck.

Regarding SFM I know how to play around command with it, but in those scenarios it is just a "2 mana draw a card you`ll almost never play" which makes it similiar to Elvish Visionary and thats not near to playable in our deck. If I wanted equips I would just play 2 copies of Jitte maindeck since the Swords aren`t necassary aside from Miracels and the BSkull isn`t neede when you run Goyfs. Especially when you run more then four virtual copies of it.

Hymn to Tourach is a really huge magic card and in some MUs I miss it but since we cut Lilly Veil we can`t T1 TS -> T2 Hymn -> T3 Lilly Veil into empty hand anymore. Well we could play Lilly Veil for sure but shes just not worth it imo. Also I found Grixis and Miracels being really resilient to Hymn due to Snapcaster and KCommand/Accumulated Knowledge along with all their cantrips. But if you want to play Hymn its still fine I guess, just not as good as it was.

Now to the cards I run. I guess you made a mistake there because I DO run 2 copies of Last Hope and she is a real beast.

Another mistake probably because I didn`t explain enough is about GSZ. I dont run Zenith to get the package. I run Zenith because its acceleration and a 1drop thats still good in the mid- and lategame. The package can easily be trimmed down or completely cut for e.g. Hymn and maybe I will try this again at some point.
You could easily cut Excavator and put Teeg in the board. Scooze is really really good against Grixis which is why I play a second one in the SB but it is not necassary, just find it better than Hymn. Knight of Autumn is good because of its flexibility but could also be cut if you wanted to. I just love having a creature that trades well with Strix while being lifegain and chumpblocker in aggro MUs. The four life have been relevant a fair amount of times.
The fact that Zenith is Goyf 5-8 isn`t a reason to run it. But the fact that it is a potential 1drop that turns into a Goyf late in the game is really good.

Maybe Im more on the aggro route with this list and not on the disruptive line that Rock used to be in the past but as far as it works Im fine with that. And again, you can play hymns with some easy changes but I found it to be not that good agaisnt two of the most palyed decks atm so it isnt worth it imo.

[KoDiamonds]

Hey everyone, back again with another one of my drafts. My last draft had Green Sun's Zenith in it, to try to minimize the lack of bad topdecks. However, the deck is primarily black based, so tutoring for Dryad Arbor just isn't good color wise. My next draft is starring Mox Diamond. It feels like it synergizes better with Tireless Tracker on top of being able to Hymn on turn 1. Here's the list.

Lands (25)
3 Bayou
2 Cabal Pit
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures (10)
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker

Sorcerys (8)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants (7)
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (5)
4 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

I feel like the list could use another Life From the Loam. I'm thinking of either cutting a 4th Mox Diamond, a 3rd Fatal Push, a Jitte, or a Pulse. What do people think?

I tried to minimize the amount of dead draws so I jammed an extra Cabal Pit and Horizon Canopy (which makes me definitely want a 2nd Loam). The sideboard is also a mess so I would love input in that as well. It probably needs some Damping Sphere for Storm?

Thanks!

[Mr. Safety]

I think with Diamond/extra lands you can start adding some cards at the upper end of the curve (not too many, still have Confidant in the list.) I'm thinking PW's like Garruk Relentless and Nissa, Vital Force. I wouldn't play more than 2 cards at 4-5 mana, but against the grindy control decks playing something big like that is really, really good. I think Lili-Last-Hope is a maindeckable card as well. Diabolic Edict seems like an omission, I'd probably jam 1-2 copies in your board. Without white you're less equipped to deal with Depths/Lands, StP is one of the best cards against them. Lili-Veil is good but Depths players can play around it pretty easily.

I'm loving the Jitte maindeck, I was going to suggest it. I think Ramanup Excavator, even without GSZ, would be very good here, especially considering you are light on threats. It's an option to get your 'Loam' effect count higher without going all-in on Loam and pressures opponents' life total while you grind them out. You could also play 1-2 GSZ as a value card rather than an engine card (Trackers 4+, a couple singleton silver bullets like Excavator, Scooze, maybe an Eternal Witness.) Speaking of Scooze...very surprised it isn't in here in some number, at least in the sideboard.

Crop Rotation seems like a pretty cool card to synergize with the utility lands. It isn't as powerful when it isn't getting Dark Depths, but it can still be very good. Tutoring for Horizon Canopy/Wasteland/Cabal Pit with Loam seems like a very good play. You could sideboard the Depths/Stage combo or just leave it out. I was playing Crop Rotation in Nic-Fit without Depths to find Phyrexian Tower/Ghost Quarter/Bojuka Bog/Karakas and it was great. It starts to get you closer to Aggro Loam minus the Knights, but that's ok. Your mana will be much more stable so it could be a fair tradeoff. Tracker is awesome at providing value, similar to knight if a little less powerful overall.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[Megadeus]

Agree with Ramunap. Being a 2/3 is so huge against lands to dodge PFire and your own recurring wastelands while you get to cast other spells is super good against them.

[KoDiamonds]

I think with Diamond/extra lands you can start adding some cards at the upper end of the curve (not too many, still have Confidant in the list.) I'm thinking PW's like Garruk Relentless and Nissa, Vital Force. I wouldn't play more than 2 cards at 4-5 mana, but against the grindy control decks playing something big like that is really, really good. I think Lili-Last-Hope is a maindeckable card as well. Diabolic Edict seems like an omission, I'd probably jam 1-2 copies in your board. Without white you're less equipped to deal with Depths/Lands, StP is one of the best cards against them. Lili-Veil is good but Depths players can play around it pretty easily.

I'm loving the Jitte maindeck, I was going to suggest it. I think Ramanup Excavator, even without GSZ, would be very good here, especially considering you are light on threats. It's an option to get your 'Loam' effect count higher without going all-in on Loam and pressures opponents' life total while you grind them out. You could also play 1-2 GSZ as a value card rather than an engine card (Trackers 4+, a couple singleton silver bullets like Excavator, Scooze, maybe an Eternal Witness.) Speaking of Scooze...very surprised it isn't in here in some number, at least in the sideboard.

Crop Rotation seems like a pretty cool card to synergize with the utility lands. It isn't as powerful when it isn't getting Dark Depths, but it can still be very good. Tutoring for Horizon Canopy/Wasteland/Cabal Pit with Loam seems like a very good play. You could sideboard the Depths/Stage combo or just leave it out. I was playing Crop Rotation in Nic-Fit without Depths to find Phyrexian Tower/Ghost Quarter/Bojuka Bog/Karakas and it was great. It starts to get you closer to Aggro Loam minus the Knights, but that's ok. Your mana will be much more stable so it could be a fair tradeoff. Tracker is awesome at providing value, similar to knight if a little less powerful overall.

Keep fighting the good fight!

Thanks for your input as always! I am not really comfortable adding expensive bombs in the main since lands will be discarded and we have Liliana of the Veil to pressure. I definitely like a planeswalker in the board though.

I really like your suggestion of Ramunap Excavator (thanks Megadeus for providing your feedback as well!) He seems better than the 2nd Loam and like you pointed out, can attack. I also like Green Sun's Zenith now that I think about it.

Im not sure if Crop Rotation can fit with Mox Diamond. We are already negative in card advantage in that department and we arent tutoring up anything thats game winning. Its more for value, which Crop Rotation isnt good at.

So for changes, it would be

-1 Forest
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Tireless Tracker
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Dryad Arbor
+1 Ramunap Excavator
+2 Green Suns Zenith
+1 Scavenging Ooze


Lands (25)
3 Bayou
2 Cabal Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures (11)
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker

Sorcerys (9)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam

Instants (7)
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (4)
4 Mox Diamond

Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I also moved the sideboard around a bit. Had to move Jitte to the side since I have no idea what I can cut for it (maybe a Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay?) I also hate cutting the 2nd library but I really am having trouble fitting everything in.

Any other thoughts? Also, is the ratio of 25 lands + 4 mox diamond correct? Thanks!

[Mr. Safety]

Crop Rotation is definitely game-winning against certain decks. Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog is incredible against Dredge and Reanimator, CR into Karakas is amazing against Reanimator and Sneak/Show. It doesn't necessarily fit your deck plan (it takes up at least 4 slots = 2 CR + 2 Utility Lands) but I have had great success with Crop Rotation. One-mana instant speed tutors, even for just a land, are very good.

Good luck with testing, I'm always paying attention to see if there's a configuration for Rock to be playable again.

[KoDiamonds]

So I played a couple matches online coupled with a league (I really wish they had friendly leagues on MTGO, just to test out the kinks).

In terms of single matches
Beat Merfolk
Beat Turbo Depths
Beat Delver
Lost to Storm
Beat Storm
Lost to Elves
Beat Reanimator

Felt good going into my league, but didnt go so well.
1-2 D&T. Game was super close but Cataclysm is backbreaking both postboard games.
2-0 Burn. GSZ for scooze is good
0-2 Affinity. Didnt play optimally game 1 and completely punted game 2 (miscalculated ravager math)
1-2 Turbo Depths. Punted game 1 completely. Felt really bad.
0-2 Storm.

Makes me want to try Chalice of the Void over the 3 Thoughtseize. I can cut a Push and add an extra Decay/Trophy. What do people think?

[Mr. Safety]

So I played a couple matches online coupled with a league (I really wish they had friendly leagues on MTGO, just to test out the kinks).

In terms of single matches
Beat Merfolk
Beat Turbo Depths
Beat Delver
Lost to Storm
Beat Storm
Lost to Elves
Beat Reanimator

Felt good going into my league, but didnt go so well.
1-2 D&T. Game was super close but Cataclysm is backbreaking both postboard games.
2-0 Burn. GSZ for scooze is good
0-2 Affinity. Didnt play optimally game 1 and completely punted game 2 (miscalculated ravager math)
1-2 Turbo Depths. Punted game 1 completely. Felt really bad.
0-2 Storm.

Makes me want to try Chalice of the Void over the 3 Thoughtseize. I can cut a Push and add an extra Decay/Trophy. What do people think?

Chalice fights with Hymn to Tourach a little; you may Chalice them off 1 drops but then Hymn is really not that useful. They will end up discarding some number of useless cards left in hand, so Hymn isn't really doing much. I would probably switch over to Collective Brutality over Hymn with Chalice main. It's likely the best 2 mana targeted discard spell. White has been historically very good against Storm because of Canonist, and more recently Kambal.
My approach against Storm has always been to play a minimum of 5 discard main alongside the Hymns. Sideboard brought in Canonist.

How is your curve playing out? Are you doing meaningful things every turn or are you waiting for the right opportunities to play your cards out/waiting for mana? Mox naturally pushes you to 3 drops sooner but I've always been of the mindset to make sure I can still curve out, regardless of acceleration. Being able to curve out without Mox Diamond is important. When DRS was in the format I always wanted either DRS or discard t1, Hymn or Library t2, and t3+ I wanted to have removal or threats. Those were my ideal games, the ones I noticed I was winning. I think Wasteland is putting a little bit of a kink in all of this as well. If you have an efficient 1-2 mana curve you can pop off Wastelands at any time turns 2-on, but when you are gearing so hard for the mid-game there may be missed opportunities to utilize Wasteland. A 2nd targeted discard alongside Wasteland t2 can be devastating. Again, this is in light of not having Mox available t1, which can obviously let you Wasteland and Thoughtseize t1 (on the draw.)

I think there are better Chalice decks, I would sideboard it at the most. It fights pretty hard with Hymn to Tourach, attacking completely different axes (one doesn't care how many cards are in hand because a lot of them are dead, the other wants to strip the hand as a 2-for-1) I would also re-evaluate the curve to make sure there are consistent combinations of plays turns 1-3 that deal with what's beating you. The further you go down the GSZ path, the more grindy of a deck you have that cuts early disruption for a more powerful mid-game. The more discard/efficient curve you have the more tempo oriented you become with a traditional Rock plan. Both have upsides and downsides.

I think another option, and call me crazy if this is just nuts, is Trinisphere Once you have three mana you should be all set, you can curve discard into Library/Scooze/Goyf/Hymn or land a devastating turn three 3Ball. It's almost one-sided, really. You don't mind 3-mana Hymns and your most powerful mid-game plays are 3 or more mana anyways (Tracker, GSZ, Liliana.) Adding one mana to your cards isn't a big deal, Hym and Trophy for 3 mana are fine. Cutting opponent's off cantrips and spanking Storm seems like a fair tradeoff to me. Hymn works with Trinisphere better, too. It can take lands to prevent their answers to Trinisphere. EDIT: This is going way too deep, but Sinkhole then becomes pretty spicy. Mox Diamond into Sinkhole/Wasteland/3Ball. Evil...

[H]

I think another option, and call me crazy if this is just nuts, is Trinisphere Once you have three mana you should be all set, you can curve discard into Library/Scooze/Goyf/Hymn or land a devastating turn three 3Ball. It's almost one-sided, really. You don't mind 3-mana Hymns and your most powerful mid-game plays are 3 or more mana anyways (Tracker, GSZ, Liliana.) Adding one mana to your cards isn't a big deal, Hym and Trophy for 3 mana are fine. Cutting opponent's off cantrips and spanking Storm seems like a fair tradeoff to me. Hymn works with Trinisphere better, too. It can take lands to prevent their answers to Trinisphere. EDIT: This is going way too deep, but Sinkhole then becomes pretty spicy. Mox Diamond into Sinkhole/Wasteland/3Ball. Evil...

You're crazy. Oh wait, Lejay went 5-0 with this:

Creatures [9]
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Knight of Autumn
4 Knight of the Reliquary


Instants [3]
3 Abrupt Decay


Sorceries [4]
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Enchantments [9]
1 Armadillo Cloak
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Engineered Plague
4 Sylvan Library


Artifacts [11]
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond


Lands [24]
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sometimes I joke that Lejay could do well with a ham sandwich...but sometimes I think that isn't a joke...

[CptHaddock]

You're crazy. Oh wait, Lejay went 5-0 with this:

Creatures [9]
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Knight of Autumn
4 Knight of the Reliquary


Instants [3]
3 Abrupt Decay


Sorceries [4]
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Enchantments [9]
1 Armadillo Cloak
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Engineered Plague
4 Sylvan Library


Artifacts [11]
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond


Lands [24]
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sometimes I joke that Lejay could do well with a ham sandwich...but sometimes I think that isn't a joke...

The chalice + trinisphere shell is just very good right now. Plug has probably been pretty criminally underplayed for some time, it's the only chalice/trinisphere deck that gets to play mox diamond, sylvan library, gsz and ancient tomb.