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ivanpei
03-07-2011, 09:46 PM
Great report! Any conments on how the diversified accel suit was? What's the reason behind it? I'm sure the hymns would have helped a lot against combo. Then again, the manabase would have to be very different. Cheers!

mdc1010
03-08-2011, 12:52 AM
I found out about this tread from another forum, figured I would post here. I put together a GP Columbus Junk build about 3 weeks ago and planned on playing it in Memphis this weekend. I got out of Magic like a year ago, so I now only own 75 cards, lol. I got hooked into Legacy right before I stepped away from the game so I am looking forward to this tournament. As a once avid T2 player, I really feel Legacy is where its at. When I decided to go all in and build a legacy deck I choose the Junk list because it just felt like everything that Magic fun to me. It was interactive, it was creatures, it was hand hate, all that jazz, so I am pumped to see it do so well.

With the rise in combo I think I should keep my extripates in the sideboard. I didn't see many lists run them recently. They seem to good against most combo decks. Leads me into sideing in Duress as well. I have the standard 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize, and 2 Verdict discard package. Against combo I would think brining in 3 Duress and 3 Exitraptes should clean the match up pretty well.

Say hi on Sunday to me if you see me, I will be the guy with a deck box that says all my cards I own are in this box, LOL.

sdematt
03-08-2011, 01:00 AM
Nice to have you here! Hope to see you place at the event!

-Matt

deezy
03-08-2011, 08:14 AM
welcome.....Back to the game and to the forum....I know the feeling of coming back in.. I took a brake myself I played one night with a buddy that moved back to town and BAM! I'm hooked again....lol
Anyway I love the legacy format and I will not waste my money or energy on anything else....
Im alittle biased but I think you chose a great deck..Lol...Keep us posted on how you fair...

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 10:55 AM
With the rise in combo I think I should keep my extripates in the sideboard. I didn't see many lists run them recently. They seem to good against most combo decks. Leads me into sideing in Duress as well. I have the standard 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize, and 2 Verdict discard package. Against combo I would think brining in 3 Duress and 3 Exitraptes should clean the match up pretty well.

This is actually an amazing idea. It is unlikely time spiral decks can win with only 1 high tide! Even if you cannot discard it just extirpate it after they play the first and you should be good!? I think this needs testing. Do they keep one in the board for cunning wish? probably not. Also removing all of their timespirals or meditates seems to make it difficult for them especially when combined with your own discard.

mishima_kazuya
03-08-2011, 11:10 AM
Great report! Any conments on how the diversified accel suit was? What's the reason behind it? I'm sure the hymns would have helped a lot against combo. Then again, the manabase would have to be very different. Cheers!

The Mox Diamonds felt like staples that never should go as they provide much needed fixing. And once in a while you get a turn 1 Dark Confidant and the game is such a blow out. I don't remember the details of most games where I had a turn 1 Bob, as they ended pretty fast when my opponents got crushed in card advantage.

The Noble Hierarches almost ended up getting cut, but Mark Tocco suggested they stay as my deck was full of 3 drops for me to ramp into and it allowed me to get Knights or a Terravore on turn 3 with Green Sun's Zenith.
Taking lessons from NO Bant's Hierarch and Daze plan, the Wastelands play very well with Noble Hierarch, as its now a bit unfair when you still are up a mana source after Wastelanding your opponent.

Atm I am experimenting with maindecking 2 Gerrard's Verdict in my MB as it plays better on the current manabase.
I will experiment with Hymns, hopefully before the weekend, or just go back to the Sensei's Divining Top, Hymn to Tourach, no GSZ plan.

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 12:32 PM
Perhaps birds of paradise will give you the BB for hymn. (instead of nobles)u

mdc1010
03-08-2011, 12:52 PM
Here is what I plan on running this weekend. The main deck is identical to the GP Columbus list except I choose to +1 Forest and -1 Swamp. The sideboard is currently identical however I am considering lowering the Engineered Plague's to something more useful for the uprising of NO Bant/Show and Tell, and other Combo/Storm decks.

Not sure yet though, I don't want to over-hate and commit to many sideboard slots. I've toyed with the idea of adding Bitter Ordeal to side. You can hit between 2-4 cards from their library usually. Getting rid of both copies of Progentius and a enabler seems pretty good to me.

Extirpate is staying in for sure. It's amazing in the mirror and amazing against combo (storm/high tide). I'll post a report or something next week. Say hi if you recognize me. Hoping to just have a good time, and win a few games while I am at it. :cool:

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ZEN] Swamp
3 [A] Scrubland
2 [A] Bayou
1 [ZEN] Forest

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

PS One of my favorite plays is to Verdict myself, grow my Knight, and net 6 life. So awesome.

FieryBalrog
03-08-2011, 02:19 PM
Very solid and traditional list, it's nearly identical mainboard to the one I was running. Sideboard looks solid too, although I don't know if you need all 4 Plagues, as 3 is usually more than enough to demolish Goblins. I would try to fit in 1-2 Pithing Needles.

Dzra
03-08-2011, 02:23 PM
Is there any place that keeps track of archtypes at SCG tournaments? Not just top 16s, but like X% of the field was Goblins, X% was Merfolk, etc.

If not, for those of you who have been to a big tournament recently, do you feel the lack of Goblins in the top 16s is more a result of the them being cold to the meta (combo in particular) or a result of it just being less present?

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 02:30 PM
Sadistic Sacrament > Bitter Ordeal

A vintage staple, and also quite nice against any combo deck.

The other way to stop natural order is to keep them off 4 mana or a creature or with the edicts already in your board.

Arsenal
03-08-2011, 03:10 PM
BBB, even with Mox Diamond, seems like a bit of a stretch to pull of consistently on turn 3. Also, who suggested Bitter Ordeal as a potential SB card?

Also, in those Vintage decks that run Sacrament, you'll also find tutors (Rock runs none) and XXX color mana accelerants like Black Lotus, Dark Ritual whereas Rock runs Mox Diamond and hopes it gets the right confirguration of lands/fetchlands to make BBB work. Seems really iffy.

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 03:19 PM
I dont know about your build, but every mana source in my deck except 1 plains and 1 Karakas make black mana. Should be reliable.

Arsenal
03-08-2011, 03:27 PM
I main 3-4 basics in all my builds, and play anywhere from 2-4 Wastelands depending. If you're able to consistently hit BBB by turn 3, more power to you, but many builds are running more than a singleton basic and more than a singleton colorless mana producing nonbasic. Look at Eli's 2nd place list for reference; many, many builds are running a similar manabase (fiddle with the exact number of Wasteland, etc, but overall, it's very similar).

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 03:38 PM
Yeah i forgot about wastelands.

My list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-[Deck]-The-Rock/page36

still 16 black sources though.

AggroSteve
03-08-2011, 03:57 PM
if you want combohate i would suggest extra duress + extirpate in the board (but only if you are running the 10 discardspells MD), otherwise i would suggest leyline of sanctity or maybe gaddock teeg as well

Arsenal
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
Yeah i forgot about wastelands.

My list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-[Deck]-The-Rock/page36

still 16 black sources though.

I count 15 black sources and 8 non-black sources, not including Mox Diamond. 15/8 allows you to hit BBB on turn 3? That doesn't sound right to me.

mdc1010
03-08-2011, 04:37 PM
Sadistic Sacrament > Bitter Ordeal

A vintage staple, and also quite nice against any combo deck.

The other way to stop natural order is to keep them off 4 mana or a creature or with the edicts already in your board.

In testing so far for me Bitter Ordeal has been more reliable. Not just because of the casting cost, but also because of gravestorm. I assume I am playing this right, but I have been victim of a force several times, and the opponent doesn't realize that the gravestorm still triggers the copies. So essentially I've looked at it like I can play the Sacrament or the Ordeal, both cards almost do the same thing, however the Ordeal has a leg up against blue decks.

brianw712
03-08-2011, 05:12 PM
The problem with Bitter Ordeal against NOShow is that you really only have fetches and Wastelands to create gravestorm triggers (I suppose Knight of the Reliquary helps with this). If you go turn three fetch into Bitter Ordeal, and they Spell Pierce/FoW a copy, you get to remove one Progenitus--effectively doing nothing. If it were an instant, it would be much better, because you could play it in response to Natural Order and blow them out, but alas, it's not. I think the best way to combat NOShow is extra hand disruption in the board (either that or some weird, narrow cards like Tariff/Sudden Spoiling/Wing Shards) and playing Karakas + 4 Knight main for the SnT plan. Unfortunately Edict effects aren't the best because of all the mana dudes they run, in addition to fetch --> Dryad Arbor.

Arsenal
03-08-2011, 05:38 PM
I've talked about this before, and I still run it in my current build, but are people reconsidering an E. Tutor board plan? It sure would be nice to be able to tutor for an O. Ring when facing a minty fresh Emrakul on the other side of the table.

mdc1010
03-08-2011, 06:32 PM
I think the best way to combat NOShow is extra hand disruption in the board (either that or some weird, narrow cards like Tariff/Sudden Spoiling/Wing Shards) and playing Karakas + 4 Knight main for the SnT plan. Unfortunately Edict effects aren't the best because of all the mana dudes they run, in addition to fetch --> Dryad Arbor.

I think you are probably right. I really like all 3 card choices you present. Wing Shards would be very good against Goblins as well, and might take the spot of my Engineered Plagues as that slot could serve double duty against both Goblins and NOShow.

ivanpei
03-08-2011, 07:35 PM
Wing shards doesn't stop Emrakul's annihilator from wrecking you. I think hand disruption, MD karakas and mana wrecking is the way to go. If they draw their god hands, there's nothing much that can be done though. A disruption suit MD like this:

4 Seize
4 Hymm
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Vindicate

should be ok with a SB of:

3 Duress

That being said, there's nothing you can do against a topdeck NO other than trying to cut them off mana. Topdecking a Show and Tell + Emmy is more difficult so I'd say the best way is to attack the mana.

On another note, I've had alot of success with Phyrexian Revoker in decks that play equipment. For the guys that run Stoneforge Mystic + equipment package, what do you think about revoker? It has been ridiculously useful for me so far (even more so than Pridemage) due to the fact that it can name Planeswalkers (LED too). Naming mana bears also seems to be useful against all the Nobles running around. The body is not amazing, but with equipment, could be pretty relevant.

RexFTW
03-08-2011, 07:58 PM
revoker is also perish - proof.

sdematt
03-08-2011, 09:01 PM
@ Goblins

They're being played, but they just can't beat Emrakul, and their Warren Weirdings are mostly in the board or get countered. I think the meta is shifting to more the way Iona used to be. You need to be able to deal with a big fatty or die immediately.

Spell Pierce should get infinitely better now, as should Blood Moon, Perish, Sirocco, etc. Well, maybe not Sirocco, but you know what I mean :P

Also, Needle on Candelabra is pretty tech.

-Matt

ivanpei
03-08-2011, 11:06 PM
Revoker is really good right now (needle main). Walkers, Candelabra (like sdematt mentioned), KOTR, Grim Lavamancer etc. @ the Goblins vs Show and Tell MU, it's quite difficult for SNT-NO actually. It's close to 50/50. I tested with the 4 Warren Weirding, 2 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger version (no warmarshalls). Manadudes get killed by gempalms and Warren Weirding. Wastelands and ports make 4 mana really hard to achieve.

Against Show and Tell, when they cast that, I just drop a SGC or stingscourger, or I matron for a stingscourger. Goblins is actually one of the harder MUs since they have such a quick clock and Show and Tell actually assists them in Killing you the turn after you SNT.

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 12:50 AM
Agree with ivan. Stingscourger is money.

sdematt
03-09-2011, 02:04 AM
@ Arsenal

A tutor-board could be viable, I'll try to draft something up tomorrow. See, I don't ignore you :)

-Matt

Arsenal
03-09-2011, 09:26 AM
My board typically looks like this

4 Leyline (white or black, depending on what I think I'll be facing)
3 E Tutor
Then you have 8 flex spots to run stuff like O Ring, Dueling Grounds, Choke, Runed Halo, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc (the 8 flex spots will vary depending on what Leyline you ran). In a shifting meta of "I have 1-2 bombs in my deck, answer them now", an E Tutor plan seems versatile and able to handle Goblins (Dueling Grounds) to NOShow (O Ring, Runed Halo naming Progenitus).

sdematt
03-09-2011, 02:16 PM
*In Archon voice* The pimping is complete...

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/mattandgeoff/scan0176.jpg

Just received the last one in the mail, and also cracked the BGS 7.5 out of the case. Wewt!

-Matt

Magicsk8ngenius
03-09-2011, 02:38 PM
You need a sharpie to fix them boarders..

Dzra
03-09-2011, 02:47 PM
Nice. :) Don't you dare stick a sharpie to those though! lol If you need to do border touch-ups, use colored pencils. Black for new cards and usually a dark gray for older cards.

Arsenal
03-09-2011, 02:48 PM
You need a sharpie to fix them boarders..

Shame on you.
_________________________

Eli's list ran 2 maindeck Jitte. I feel as though those 2 slots are the "flex" spots in the deck. Thoughts on what the "core" cards are and when you have "flex" spots available?

sdematt
03-09-2011, 03:18 PM
The borders are fine. And yes, I know to use dark gray pencil crayons :P

-Matt

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 03:20 PM
With 16 black sources you have a 57% chance of having BBB by turn 3 with streight probability calculations. However, obviously you would mulligain a lot of these hands that only have 1 or no lands. Assuming you mulligain those hands you have about a 72% chance.

Arsenal
03-09-2011, 03:58 PM
You do not run 16 black sources, you run 15. Also, your numbers will almost always be incorrect once you start factoring Mox Diamond into the equation as Mox will tap for B, but you may have pitched a B source, etc. Again, I honestly don't believe that 15 black sources/8 colorless sources + 3 Mox Diamond allows you to consistently hit BBB on turn 3.

zalachan
03-09-2011, 04:59 PM
Eli's list ran 2 maindeck Jitte. I feel as though those 2 slots are the "flex" spots in the deck. Thoughts on what the "core" cards are and when you have "flex" spots available?

I think that "the core" with only 2 Tarmogoyfs is missing something. I love Mom/Pridemage/Jitte, but if i had to shave something, i would start with those (ok, maybe mums should shave themselves:wink:).

Also, glad to see the thread alive and kicking, i just read 10+ pages that added up since my last visit.

Arsenal
03-09-2011, 05:20 PM
Ah yes, totally forgot about the 2 Tarmos missing. My bad.

sdematt
03-09-2011, 07:25 PM
To be honest, I'm surprised we're already at page 40, holy crap.

Also, if I feel particularly motivated, I may do some adding to the primer sometime between now and May (after finals).

Also, is anyone planning to go to GP Providence?

-Matt

ZeinVoncy
03-09-2011, 08:30 PM
I plan on attending GP Providence, just hope my plans don't change.

ZeinVoncy
03-09-2011, 08:30 PM
I plan on attending GP Providence, just hope my plans don't change.
I'll be going with either Zoo, Junk or Elf Ciombo.

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 08:44 PM
Matt, you may want to add this to the knight combat tricks section. This is why the maze trick works, as i have many opponents object when i have used it in the past:

508.1j Each chosen creature still controlled by the active player becomes an attacking creature. It remains an attacking creature until it’s removed from combat or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. See rule 506.4.

506.4. A permanent is removed from combat if it leaves the battlefield, if its controller changes, if it phases out, if an effect specifically removes it from combat, if it’s a planeswalker that’s being attacked and stops being a planeswalker, or if it’s an attacking or blocking creature that regenerates (see rule 701.11) or stops being a creature. A creature that’s removed from combat stops being an attacking, blocking, blocked, and/or unblocked creature.

Maze of Ith oracle:
Tap: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn.

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 09:29 PM
If you see more Thopters, Elspeth. If you see Stax, Elspeth. If you see MUC and more Counter-heavy decks, Thrunn isn't bad at all.

Dont you think bitterblossom is better for this? It costs less and the guys fly permanently. Unless you want elspeth to cost 4 to make EE harder to kill it with. In maindeck slots it also seems better in aggro matchups. Also no WW requirement.

Turn 1 Bitterblossom seems absolutely backbreaking against many decks too!

Bignasty197
03-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Turn 1 Bitterblossom seems absolutely backbreaking against many decks too!

Including your own. The lifeloss of Bitterblossom combined with Bob, Thoughtseize and your fetchlands may be too much to handle. Just my first thought.

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 11:00 PM
Why be concerned with lifeloss vs thopters, stax and counterspell decks? Their plan is to win on turn 30.

Dzra
03-09-2011, 11:29 PM
Because Control is on the decline. It's much more likely you'll have to deal with midrange or combo. Aggro decks are still around too.

RexFTW
03-09-2011, 11:32 PM
You are completely missing the point.... the reason to side in Elspeth/Bitterblossom is vs control.

FieryBalrog
03-10-2011, 01:26 AM
Perish vs. Retribution of the Meek

Perish
+kills Progenitus
+kills Elves dead
+kills opposing green fatties like Goyf
+kills Zoo critters like Pridemage & Nacatl, maybe Teeg, etc.
-kills your own fatties, and maybe some of your other dudes (depending on build)

Retribution of the Meek
+kills Progenitus AND Emrakul
+kills Tombstalkers in addition to most opposing Goyfs and Knights
+kills MUD's big dudes, although sometimes not that profitably (e.g. Wurmcoil)
-kills your own fatties

I can't decide. I would love for a Perish that hits Emrakul...


Is there any place that keeps track of archtypes at SCG tournaments? Not just top 16s, but like X% of the field was Goblins, X% was Merfolk, etc.

If not, for those of you who have been to a big tournament recently, do you feel the lack of Goblins in the top 16s is more a result of the them being cold to the meta (combo in particular) or a result of it just being less present?

From what I could tell, there was a TON of Goblins at SCG DC. People just come ready for it.

sdematt
03-10-2011, 01:39 AM
Elspeth is only bad when...

a) You have only 3 mana
b) You want it to be something else

Other than that, it's pretty good. Making Knight fly, or making flying soldiers is good. REALLY good.


@ New card I've found

Ritual of the Machine. Thoughts? I know it costs 4, but trading Confidant or a token for Emrakul seems okay.

-Matt

Dzra
03-10-2011, 03:29 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't Emrakul have protection?

sdematt
03-10-2011, 09:55 AM
For some reason I thought it was an enchantment. Doh.

-Matt

RexFTW
03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
I think this is what you are looking for:
Helm of Possession

Arsenal
03-10-2011, 02:28 PM
I'd rather just O. Ring the Emrakul; cheaper, less setup, and enchantments are a bit more difficult to destroy than artifacts in Legacy (not by much, but enough to notice).

RexFTW
03-10-2011, 03:43 PM
I'd rather just Karakas the Emrakul, already in the deck.

Arsenal
03-10-2011, 04:17 PM
True. Although O. Ring can be used in many situations where Karakas is a blank in non-Emrakul matchups. Think of O. Ring as Vindicate #5 that can be tutored for with E. Tutor. Karakas can be tutored with KotR, but again, there's more setup involved and KotR is a creature, which will meet a swift death in many situations.

mdc1010
03-10-2011, 08:30 PM
At this point I would with all the play testing I have done, I would rather run 10 main deck discard spells (4 hymn, 4 thoughtseize, and 2 verdicts) with another 3-4 duress in sideboard when needed. Strip out all the ways they can cheat Emrakul into play (side extipate if needed too). It's the strong suite of the deck to be disruptive, and tear about their hand.

No need to get fancy and spend extra slots with a enlightened tutor package or other random idea.

Kird Ape
03-11-2011, 04:59 PM
Hey guys. I just picked up Rock and I am liking it. I think the deck is well rounded and performs well in the current meta-game. The results of SCG Edison speak for themselves. I was wondering about the discard spells though. I've been a long time Zoo player because of that fact I have a particular hatred for combo. So, I was thinking a 10 discard main:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of K.

4 Hymn
1 Gerrard's Verdict

I also would like to add a Maelstrom Pulse main to do a 4/1 split with vindicate. What do you think? Is it better to be well rounded or have a few bombs like Elspeth, Mom, etc? I'm hoping that my disdain for combo isn't making my main deck choices for me here, but with the meta being so wide open, you never know.

Magicsk8ngenius
03-11-2011, 05:38 PM
Lately I have been running with a few different variations of a more aggro based rock just to try it out. Using the 3 swords, 1 jitte, 1 sols, 1 sofi and 3 stoneforge mystics I find that it just beats up on any aggro decks. The swords just make it nearly impossible for any other aggro decks to compete. I also tried using mother or runes and honestly I don't know what other people see in her. Every time that I have her out I've been been extremely disappointed. I'd much rather it be a guy that does something, like attack.


23 land
3 mox diamond

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 swords
1 sols
1 jitte
1 sofi
2 Vindicate


4 dark confidant
4 goyf
4 kotr
3 stoneforge
2 Quasali


It may be okay to drop the sols for a 3rd vindicate, but in my meta there is a lot of landstill and U/W control decks so it really does well.

sdematt
03-11-2011, 09:07 PM
@ Kird Ape

If you wanted to split, I'd say go with a 3/1 Split. Nowadays, I've found you don't need 5 Vindicates. If you're not on the land denial plan, and find yourself blowing up non-land permanents more often, go for more Pulses.

I would also say lose the Verdict and go for another 1 CMC discard, another IoK would do it.

-Matt

wizard_of_gore
03-14-2011, 01:11 AM
Again, rock takes place in top 16 in latest SCG (12th and 16th place). I think this should be moved in DTB.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-03-13&end_date=2011-03-13&event_ID=20&city=Memphis

2Rach
03-14-2011, 02:54 AM
You're my boy, Alex Hon! If you come on here post regarding your sideboard. 12th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37125)

Dzra
03-14-2011, 04:21 AM
Rock keeps posting good results. You'd think it'd get moved to DTB.

Go for the Throat doesn't hit Affinity, doesn't hit Zoo's 1-drops on t1, and can't answer t1 Lacky... but maybe it's worth it not to have the tempo loss from Path? Go for the Throat might be similar to Inquisition. It's usually awesome, but sometimes it just doesn't get you there. Dunno.

Rainbow Maker
03-14-2011, 04:52 AM
what makes me giggle is http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37121 the current incarnation junk seems to be taking is what i have been making since i first started testing this deck. I remember everyone said mystic was TOO slow and the equipments AREN'T that good, how my list was strictly worse because it included things such as mystic and jitte... It's funny how things change. But what's funny is i tested that list on the link months ago... the same list; except for the lands

EDIT: my mistake he runs 3 goyfs.

also i have been thinking of tinkering around where the goyf spot is...

also i would be worried if team america because very popular. I think you would start to run more creatures and add vials.

publius_aelius
03-14-2011, 06:29 AM
I don't like this list. But that's a matter of preferences. In any case, I'd play Verdict over Hymn in this build, or Therapy over both, because of potential double-B mana problems.


What's great with Mox Diamond-Junk decks is that you can play with basics + mox. I don't remember the last time I got mana screwed...

wizard_of_gore
03-14-2011, 08:29 AM
I don't see mana issue because almost every colored land in deck produce B.
btw., i like list rainbow posted, it reminds me on tradtional build.

publius_aelius
03-14-2011, 08:58 AM
Yeah, but not every colored land in the deck has long life expectancy.

With wastelands and vindicates lurking around, you'd be wise not to go for early dual-land drops. See the semifinal match between Eli Kassis and Kenny Mayer and you'll see what I'm talking about.

But - quot tempora, tot sententiae. :smile:

wizard_of_gore
03-14-2011, 10:18 AM
Yeah, but not every colored land in the deck has long life expectancy.
True, but ....
Well, there are tons of rock decks not running mox diamond, and still playing hymn to tourach and doing well. Therapy is ok, but not more than 2 or 3. Hymn is just simply better than verdict, and too good not to run it. If you are going to play against mana denial oriented deck, you will have trouble with mana screw playing mox diamond or not. Vindicate can take mox also, so i don't see difference. Switching verdict for hymn only because of fear of wasteland means you need noble hierarch in play to cast that gerrard's verdict. But then you are on the same level of problem - you need another mana resource (in this case noble).
People, stop whining about "OMG IT HAS DOUBLE MANA COST, i can't play it in deck because i will loose against wasteland", it's really annoying.
Sorry for my bad english.

sdematt
03-14-2011, 10:42 AM
I've played against TA many times. Sometimes we die horribly early on, but most of the time they die in a fire if we get to the mid-game. They only have 4 Force of Will, and 8 threats + 8 land screwovers. We have usually 12 creatures, more CA, more removal, 10 pieces of discard, etc. The advice here? Take Stifle, fetch basics. They're not running Sinkhole, so you're good.

TL:DR: If you make it to the mid-game, you can grind them out.

-Matt

Arsenal
03-14-2011, 10:51 AM
I've played against TA many times. Sometimes we die horribly early on, but most of the time they die in a fire if we get to the mid-game. They only have 4 Force of Will, and 8 threats + 8 land screwovers. We have usually 12 creatures, more CA, more removal, 10 pieces of discard, etc. The advice here? Take Stifle, fetch basics. They're not running Sinkhole, so you're good.

TL:DR: If you make it to the mid-game, you can grind them out.

-Matt

It should be noted that TA is slowly changing their deck to have a better mid-game. Sylvan Library, Jace 2.0, Consuming Vapors (SB), etc. Not saying that it'll drastically swing things in their favor, but a well-timed Jace 2.0 can change the gamestate (hope you're holding Vindicate).

Rainbow Maker
03-14-2011, 02:19 PM
well the thing is the decks are very similar, Team America and junk. the one thing is one is a tempo deck. stifle can hurt really wasteland. this is especially true with wasteland. they have a lot of cards that hurt, fow, jace, library, stifle, spot removal(i hate snuff out. I think it's a bad card), ee, hymn. their sideboard is usually pretty rough. it likely contains smother, go for the throat, ghastly demise, perish, consuming vaoprs, and more jaces. That match isn't really in our favor. Also iIthink last week I was watchinggslive. What pissed me off is the people were harping on this goblins player, max, i believe. they were complaining that he sided in a relic of progenitus against someone playing a traditional junk list. it was just really irritating because in my experience a early relic can be back breaking.

RexFTW
03-14-2011, 03:59 PM
Yeah, but not every colored land in the deck has long life expectancy.

With wastelands and vindicates lurking around, you'd be wise not to go for early dual-land drops. See the semifinal match between Eli Kassis and Kenny Mayer and you'll see what I'm talking about.

But - quot tempora, tot sententiae. :smile:

I think eli won because he simply had more unanswered confidants for much longer.

Also, fetching basics makes you MORE vulnerable to vindicate i n a 3 color deck.

mishima_kazuya
03-14-2011, 09:56 PM
I scrubbed out of small tourney playing classic junk and have came to a golden rule...

Green sun's zenith is an easy button but you sacrifice your ability to play Hymn to Tourach(unless we can mix em both)

Playing the classic Junk list gives you an edge against combo, but you lose your easy button.

mishima_kazuya
03-14-2011, 09:56 PM
I scrubbed out of small tourney playing classic junk and have came to a golden rule...

Green sun's zenith is an easy button but you sacrifice your ability to play Hymn to Tourach (unless we can mix em both)

Playing the classic Junk list gives you an edge against combo, but you lose your easy button.

Magicsk8ngenius
03-14-2011, 10:42 PM
If an early relic of progenitus is back breaking, you're clearly doing something wrong. Grave hate aginst our deck is weak. The only time it would be wise to bring it in would be if you have completely dead cards in your deck. When playing goblins, the more goblins you sideboard out to bring in cards like relic, the weaker your own strategy gets! Crazy enough goblin decks rely on.... goblins! Crazy concept I know. Honestly the only thing that a good goblins play should be bringing into this matchup is some K-grips to fight off plague. It would be even better if it was nature's claim, but i'm pretty sure nobody plays that card.

You really think fetching basics makes you more vulnerable to vindicate? If they're vindicating your basic lands then you're not in a very good position anyways.

RexFTW
03-14-2011, 11:35 PM
The Rock
A Legacy Magic deck, by Travis Hilderbrand
13th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Nashville, Tennessee, United States on 2010-10-17
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com
Maindeck:
2 Bayou
4 Dark Confidant
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Karakas
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mox Diamond
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swamp
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
Maindeck:
4 Bayou
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Forest
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sarcomancy
2 Sinkhole
4 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland



Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Snuff Out

RexFTW
03-14-2011, 11:36 PM
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Snuff Out

Dzra
03-16-2011, 01:27 PM
I haven't had much trouble against Team America. We have more threats than they have removal and more removal than they have threats. Mox Diamonds win you the mana war. Just don't walk into a Stifle if you can help it. If you stick a creature, they are under a whole lot of threat, especially Dark Confidant.

mdc1010
03-16-2011, 09:40 PM
I went 4 - 4 at Memphis with my rock list. I haven't played Magic in over a year so I am not complaining at all. This was my 2nd time ever playing Legacy as well. Anyways I had a great time, and am typing up a report. I've been busy with work and traveling this week so that's why the delay.

mdc1010
03-16-2011, 09:42 PM
I went 4 - 4 in Memphis with my Rock list. I am not complaining at all as I haven't played Magic in over a year, and this was only my 2nd time playing Legacy. I've been working long hours and traveling this week, but I've started to type up my summary of matches. I'll post it this weekend. I learned a whole heck of a lot and look forward to another chance to play this deck again.

Plague Sliver
03-17-2011, 01:48 AM
It should be noted that TA is slowly changing their deck to have a better mid-game. Sylvan Library, Jace 2.0, Consuming Vapors (SB), etc. Not saying that it'll drastically swing things in their favor, but a well-timed Jace 2.0 can change the gamestate (hope you're holding Vindicate).

TA is still disadvantaged even with the printing of Go for the Throat. Previous to that, the Snuff Outs were dead vs. the card TA most wanted to kill - Bob. TA against Rock is an uphill battle, and in the end Rock wins the attrition battle.

Rock wins most attrition battles, hence why it's so good. sdematt, I think you would agree :)

sdematt
03-17-2011, 01:13 PM
I hate how the forums are screwing up. You guys should check back regularly though, as we should continue making posts.

-Matt

ZeinVoncy
03-18-2011, 10:20 AM
Glad Forum is back to normal. Now I'm just curious as to why New Horizon's is still a DTB and yet The Rock isn't . . . I think the forums went down b/c it's need an overhaul/update.

2Rach
03-18-2011, 12:29 PM
doublepost. database error.

2Rach
03-18-2011, 12:29 PM
Not quite back to normal. I just tried to post and got a database error. Then I tried going to the last page of a thread and got redirected to the page before that. Though I'm glad post numbers and times are updated. Got another one just now. Fail...


Has anyone with the traditional-ish build tested against the High Tide deck? How do we do? What do we need to watch out for?

RexFTW
03-18-2011, 12:50 PM
Rock is timespirals worst matchup. It is the deck they want to see least. All of the discard + extirpate makes their life very hard. If you extirpate high tide they can not win. gogo cloud of faeries beatdown!!!!

TheShaun
03-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Not sure if you guys are willing to answer this, but I had a question about playing against rock. If your opponent were able to lock you out of one color, which color hurts most. I doubt it's white, but I'm torn on the other 2. Stopping green eliminates your beaters, black gets confidant, vindicate, discard. A confidant or KotR already in play kinda makes it moot, but I'm leaning towards black hurting most. What do you guys think, if you're willing to open up :P

JimmyC27
03-18-2011, 02:18 PM
@TheShaun -- I think it comes down to what deck you are playing. What deck are you running? Also, for reference:


White:

Swords
Vindicate
Knight of the Reliquary
Elspeth
Pridemage


Black:

Confidant
Deed
Vindicate
(Pulse?)
Thoughtseize
Hymn


Green:

Dudes.

RexFTW
03-18-2011, 03:10 PM
In general, choose black, stop the swords, win the game. There are only 3 cards in the deck not black. (swords goyf knight). However, they may be the relevant cards you need to stop so take that into account.

TheShaun
03-18-2011, 03:58 PM
Right, it definitely can change based on the game state. I'm feeling that cutting black early on would be amazing, with green being stronger late game. Biggest problem with leaving green and white is that KotR can just go grab black on his own.

RexFTW
03-18-2011, 04:43 PM
I am guessing he means Iona. Good luck trying to destroy all the black mana as most sources are black.

Piceli89
03-18-2011, 04:55 PM
rock is timespirals worst matchup. It is the deck they want to see least. All of the discard + extirpate makes their life very hard. If you extirpate high tide they can not win. Gogo cloud of faeries beatdown!!!!

lol

2Rach
03-18-2011, 05:16 PM
What if you don't run Extirpate? How is the matchup then? Can't they just TS off the top after you bombard them with discard?

mdc1010
03-18-2011, 07:36 PM
So I played the stock 60 that was in my previous post. I changed up the sideboard slightly which turned out to be a big mistake, and admittedly I just flat out didn’t know how to sideboard properly, and that cost me at least 2 rounds. I finished the day 4 -4, and in 50th. I’m really not complaining since I haven’t even played the game at all in just over a year. Keep in mind this is only the 2nd time I have ever played legacy as well.

I learned quite a bit as well regarding Legacy and this deck. Sideboarding can be very tricky. I steamrolled in the games where I had a strong disruptive hand. When I did not, the game either grinded out, or I lost quickly.

My final sideboard was 3 Engineered Plagues, 3 Diabolic Edicts, 2 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Extraptes, 3 Duress, & 2 Krosan Grip. This was a major blunder in retrospect for many reasons. The first is I just didn’t have a clue on how to sideboard at all. I shouldn’t have cut 1 Plague, and the extrapates where horrible after all. I will go back to the default GP Columbs sideboard except minus the 2 extrapates for 2 Grips. Any feedback on popular sideboard strategies would be awesome, as I felt like at least 2 or 3 of my losses could have been prevented if I was a better player?

Rd1 CounterTop 2-0
Game 1 saw a turn 1 Hymn, followed up by a turn 2 Hymn, with a Goyf on turn 3. He was dead in 3 more turns to my goyf.
Game 2 saw a turn 1 Confidant, followed up by a wasteland on turn 2 taking out his dual. Apparently he kept a 1 land hand. He finally drew a land 3 turns later, and it was promptly vindicated, at which point the game was essentially over. Bob beat down continued and I finally dug into a Knight to finish him more quickly.

Rd2 NO Bant 0-2
I lost both games to a quick NO into Progen. Even after the side hate (diabolic edicts, and duress). I was able to rip an edict however he had the man land, and a mana dude in play as well to protect his fatty. In retrospect I think I sideboarded incorrectly. I shouldn’t have sided in the duresses, instead I should put in the deeds. They would have made the edicts better. Also he was good at hiding his NO with brainstorm. Both games I had decent hand disruption however he had the brainstorm each time.

Rd3 w/u Fish 1-2
Game 1 saw a quick death with a turn 1 confidant into beaters and hand disruption. His sideboard plan was unique though. He brought in stoneforge mystics with 1 of each sword and a jitte. In the next 2 games I lost to 1 well equipped fish each game. 2 swords each time. This is where I think I made the wrong call with my sideboard the day of the tournament, and where my sideboard plan wasn’t good at all. Again I admit I just didn’t know how to side properly with this deck or for Legacy in generally. I sided in the 2 grips, 3 edicts, and 2 deeds. I removed most of my hand disruption. I felt like such a slower and less powerful deck without all the hand hate.

In game 3 life totals was 6 – 3. I had the game on his next turn unless he had some epic draw. He top decked a Kira Glass Spinner which prevented me for Swording one of his fish guys, ugh! I was tapped out with an active Knight, who I needed to block one fish with, and active to get a white source for my swords. Ugh!

**At this point I was feeling very uncomfortable sideboarding.

Rd4 Team America 1-2
Game 1 was a little bit of a grind, but he was able to find a beater before me. He won.
Game 2 I had a good amount of hand hate (I didn’t side anything due to my frustrations earlier). I won this game thanks to a active Bob getting me the cards I needed.
Game 3 he sided in more creature hate, and I just couldn’t overcome it. I decided to side in my edicts, and took out 3 Thoughtseizes. I’m not sure if this was right or not, but he landed a Tombstalker, and I didn’t have any answers.

Rd5 Blue Fish 1-2
Game 1 I lost due to a vial, with a good supply fish behind him. I would only take out so many before he overcame me.
Game 2 I won within 5 turns. I took him off his vial with an opening thoughtseize, into a turn 2 hymn, into a turn 3 verdict.
Game 3 was quick and I died fast. Stupid vial and FOW.

Rd6 Sea Stompy 2-0
I had no clue what this deck was or what it’s plan was. A turn 1 thoughtseized revealed a chalice, 2 sowers, a sea drake?, and lands. I took the Chalice and thought to myself ‘wtf mate?’. I won both games pretty quickly. After talking to the guy about the deck, it just rolls over and dies to hand hate unless he can get a chalice down on turn 1 or 2 for 1 or 2.

Rd7 Soldiers 2-0
Yeah, that’s right soldiers in legacy! The funny thing is this was my friend who I tested with and helped him build the deck. Not much to write about as this deck wasn’t really good, and he was just playing for the fun of it, and for the reactions.

Rd8 Mirror Match – Junk 2-0
Comes down to who has the most hand hate and can land and stick a beater really. That guy was me both times. Again I didn’t sideboard at all.

So I finished 4-4 overall in rounds, and a positive 11-8 in my games.

TheShaun
03-18-2011, 07:56 PM
I was just thinking about effective use of things like Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Stifle. I know there's no way to lock you out indefinitely, but given the option of shutting one down for the first 3-4 turns, it seems like black would be the best option unless I'm scared of creatures.

mchainmail
03-18-2011, 08:23 PM
Rock is timespirals worst matchup. It is the deck they want to see least. All of the discard + extirpate makes their life very hard. If you extirpate high tide they can not win. gogo cloud of faeries beatdown!!!!

They will still have 2+ High Tides though; in game 2, High Tide will board one out to be able to Cunning Wish for it to get around Extirpate. Also, you need to be able to discard one to really get value.

sdematt
03-18-2011, 08:34 PM
NO Bant is bad if they get Progenitus down before you can Perish/Edict/etc. Don't feel bad.

Against High Tide, Extirpating Cunning Wish is not a bad deal.

Against Team America, just trying to fetch basics, crack your fetches on his upkeep, and just try to run it out to the midgame. In game 2, bring in Edicts for Deed, they honestly can't get there with that much removal unless you can't keep 2 basics.

Sorry I haven't posted lately, been really busy. I'll try to post more later :)

-Matt

Rune
03-18-2011, 08:49 PM
Rock is the worst matchup for BAD timespiral players. It is the deck they want to see least. All of the discard + extirpate makes their life very hard. If you extirpate high tide they can not win. gogo cloud of faeries beatdown!!!!

Fixed.

If you play against someone who doesn't put 1 copy of High Tide in the SB, it probably means they don't know what they're doing. To be honest, I don't think you can reliably win this matchup unless you also play some kind of permanent-based hate in addition to the discard. Random anecdote: won 2-0 over The Rock with SpiralTide in the last weekly tourny I played in, and in one of the games 3 Hymns and 2 Thoughtseizes resolved.

Dzra
03-18-2011, 09:48 PM
Anyone else going to be at Dallas?

Bignasty197
03-18-2011, 10:56 PM
Anyone else going to be at Dallas?

Already here.

Dzra
03-19-2011, 03:17 AM
Well yeah, I know you are.

RexFTW
03-19-2011, 11:14 AM
Extirpates are better against combo, loam and has better synergy with your goyfs. Spellbomb is better against knight of the reliquary and ichorid decks.

sdematt
03-19-2011, 01:30 PM
That hate is correct. Extirpate is better against Loam and Combo. The problem is they're a slow combo deck, so discard doesn't matter as much. Basically, hope to hit their Cunning Wish then Extirpate it, then pray. I've played against Solidarity for years, it usually depends on hitting discard then Vindicating Lands and hopefully getting there. It's not great.

Teeg, Mindcensor, and Cannonist are good here. Hatebears.deck?

-Matt

Eatatjoes
03-20-2011, 08:48 AM
Need a solid board for LA. This is what im running right now

3x extirpate
1x bojuka bog
3x diabolic edict
2x engineered plague
2x pernicious deed
1x engineered explosives
3x duress

I havent been all that impressed with edict, since the matchups i need it most, i have to board in deed as well. I like extirpate better then nihil spellbomb right now, since there is alot of combo right now. I really want to fit in some go for the throats, and possibly some more EE's. Anything else im missing in the board that would be good right now against the current metagame? Here is my maindeck as well.

4x wasteland
8x fetch
3x basic (1 of each)
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
1x horizon canopy
3x scrubland
2x bayou
3x mox diamond

4x Kotr
4x goyf
4x confidant

4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
1x inquisition of kozilek

4x vindicate
4x swords to plowshares

3x senseis divining top
2x elspeth

The only card im worried about right now, is progenitus, but i hate diabolic edict since the decks that play proggy play a bunch of shitty dudes that turn off edict. Should i just abandon that matchup? Im sure the meta will be infested with merfolk at the 5k, since the folk prey on team america, and no bant, and both of those decks were pretty dominant at the 5k in memphis. Go for the throat would be good against folk, team america, and other random matchups. Should i drop the bog to? I find myself siding it in less and less.

f|i[p]
03-20-2011, 11:23 AM
Took this list to top 3 a while Ago..

40 person tournament but was good enough...

List

23 lands
3 MOx

4 dark confi
4 knight
4 goyf

4 stp
4 vindicate
2 pernicious
2 E. explosives
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
3 sensei

Sb was
3 E.plage
3 duress
3 gerrards verdict
2 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
3 edict

YEs I run 61 cards...

anyway

The tourney wasnt that big but 40 ppl is enough.. 6 rounds

ROUND 1 Canadian Thresh
I easily win both games, as he cannont handle EE. or deed while having to counter everything I throw at him... I did not board in anything in game 2 as I figured I already have everything I need.

ROUND 2 Gw Maverick with natural order
I also easily wins both games as he couldn't handle all of my removal suite. Game 2 pROGEnitus went online but I had edict and deed.

ROUND 3 Enchantress
Game 1 was quite easy , discard and vindicates get there.
Game 2 INstant loss vs Leyline...
Game 3 I kill his enchanted lands with vindicates, then drop confidant..Win

ROUND 4 ROCK Mirror
Game 1 win... DOnt rem much
Game 2 Loss..
Game 3 Win.. I get there with land D..

Round 5 Uw planes walker control...--we play the game as I was the only one at 4-0. ANd he was at 3-0-1
I win game 1
He wins game 2 via jace..
COuldnt finish game 3...

ROund 6 Zoo... --- ID

IM at top 1 for the swiss...

Top 8..

I face the GW maverick again.. And do the same thing win 2-0 easily...

Semis.. I face the same rock I beat in the swiss.. hez back with a vengeance...
He beats me 2-0 this time..

The deck is great, I probably wouldnt change much maindeck... IM still skeptical about moxens however....although it really does smooth out the curve..Sideboard is still questionalble

Anyone has any idea what to board out and in vs the Mirror?

sdematt
03-20-2011, 08:45 PM
In the mirror, you board in Edicts and board out Deed, I think. Point is, the opposing Rock player can deal with Deed by Vindicating it, but if you have more removal, you should be good. They can't deal with an opposing instant speed removal spell. They can deal with a slow turn turn blow up enchantment, though.

-Matt

sdematt
03-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Proves you don't need Moxen to get there. Good job Rock!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37281

-Matt

ivanpei
03-21-2011, 02:35 AM
Proves you don't need Moxen to get there. Good job Rock!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37281

-Matt

I like this list. Instead of mox's he + 3 1 drops for more T1 plays. He is playing the 4th top and 2 Inquisitions which IMO are very good calls. This shell looks very solid. I'm kinda confused with the singleton Jitte though. The deck does not play enough dudes. I'd probably swap the Jitte for an elspeth which serves a similar purpose as a pumper/finisher.

bfeingersh
03-21-2011, 11:09 AM
Is the 4th Top necessary? I think I would play more spot discard, given the opportunity.

Here's the list I've been testing, slightly budgetized as I do not plan to have access to Goyfs for SCG Boston or GP Providence (unless I win SCG Boston, lol.):

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy

Artifacts (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond

Creatures (14)
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant

Instant (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (14)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gerrard's Verdict

Enchantments (1)
1 Pernicious Deed


The more I test with it, however, the more I'm unimpressed with Green Sun's Zenith. It's clunky, and none of the creatures have enough of an immediate impact that the extra mana is worth it (other than something like Kitchen Finks against Zoo/Burn or Gaddock Teeg out of the board, which is nice despite shutting off other GSZs). I think I'd rather cut them for more removal (another Deed most likely) or something like Inquisition. Maybe an Elspeth, since I run a heavier creature base than other builds that just run the 4 Bob/Knight/Goyf setup. If they grabbed any creature they would probably be better, but they don't hit all the silver bullets I wanted to include out of the board, such as Gaddock Teeg, Canonist, Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, Kataki, etc.

That being said, I got the recommendation for Jotun Grunt as a way to replace and beat opposing Goyfs, and it's been awesome so far. And I don't think that's just me trying to mentally justify the budgetizing of the deck.

mishima_kazuya
03-21-2011, 11:23 AM
Green Sun's Zenith Junk
No mox Diamon Junk
Classic Junk

How long until we start making multiple Rock threads? lol

jazzykat
03-21-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm kinda confused with the singleton Jitte though. The deck does not play enough dudes.

I'm not saying it is wrong or right but perhaps the most powerful use of Jitte in some matchups is to destroy another's Jitte :P

Arsenal
03-21-2011, 03:41 PM
I'm not saying it is wrong or right but perhaps the most powerful use of Jitte in some matchups is to destroy another's Jitte :P

If that's the case, I'd rather just play a singleton Maelstom Pulse as my #5 pseudo-Vindicate or #3 pseudo-Pernicious Deed. Singleton Jitte seems random without Stoneforge to tutor for it. Or like ivanpei suggested, Elspeth seems more logical as a non-tutorable singleton as it makes your creatures bigger + evasive and can generate offense/defense by itself.

The Pharmacist
03-21-2011, 06:40 PM
Ok, I'm new to this thread so I have a few question here. I don't understand why people are running 1 IOK. Im sure theres a good reason. Someone just needs to tell me what it is. Why not Liliana Vess over Elspeth? Also, why no Jitte. Jitter just seams to good no to play here.

Arsenal
03-21-2011, 07:15 PM
IoK shouldn't be viewed as IoK #1, but rather as Thoughtseize #5. It gives you effectively 5 turn discard spells to play, which is really important. Elspeth makes all of your guys bigger and flying (important as Legacy doesn't have that many good maindeck flyers outside of Clique and Tombstalker) and also can just win games all by herself, and protects herself too. Elspeth costing 4 mana instead of Liliana's 5 is huge. On top of that, none of Liliana's abilities are relevant when you're running Top + Bob, as card quality/draw/dig shouldn't really be an issue.

Jitte is played maindeck because it can just dominate boards. I'd probably run it in a build running 14-16 creatures instead of the standard 12, but I don't think it's terrible.

sdematt
03-21-2011, 09:13 PM
Without Moxen, the 4th Top seems very nice. I'm running the extra land in its place (which has been good against Stifle/Wasteland shenanigans). The extra discard is great, especially against combo. I'm running Path in his IoK slot, but I'm seeing a bit more creature stuff right now. I'll try both.

@ Multiple threads

Unnecessary. I don't hate on other versions of the deck. Plus, all versions have been doing well, and I don't think there'd be enough activity on 5 threads to keep them all alive.

@ Jitte

Jitte is fine, but maybe in the board as a 2-of. In the main, I'd say two would be better, especially without Stoneforge. I'm a fan of Elspeth, though.

@ Budget list

I'll comment more after a Chem exam tomorrow. Plus, I'm trying out a new list that's been wrecking some face. It's really off the charts, but I'm afraid some of you will resent the changes I've made. Prepare for a decent decklist tomorrow night, though.

-Matt

Sintheros
03-21-2011, 10:13 PM
I feel like his 1 Bojuka Bog should be SB and replaced by a Maze.

sdematt
03-21-2011, 10:33 PM
No, if you've got one Maze main, another in the board is meh. Bog is better.

-Matt

ivanpei
03-21-2011, 10:34 PM
If that's the case, I'd rather just play a singleton Maelstom Pulse as my #5 pseudo-Vindicate or #3 pseudo-Pernicious Deed. Singleton Jitte seems random without Stoneforge to tutor for it. Or like ivanpei suggested, Elspeth seems more logical as a non-tutorable singleton as it makes your creatures bigger + evasive and can generate offense/defense by itself.

This is right. Though killing Jitte's is a big bonus, Only 12 dudes + Jitte is a just weird. I have had alot of success with Maze, I love that card, it is just cheats with Kotr. I agree, bog should be in the SB. Double Maze MD is useless though. I'd just play another fetch. I hate CIPT lands. Bog is way too slow against dredge and Karakas is a better out against reanimator's legends.

I have cut down my GSZ numbers and the dryad arbor. The mana it makes is not suitable for this deck since it can't cast hymm. GSZ is much better in a 2 colour deck or a deck that wants to power out Natural Order. I am currently Favoring the Inquisition of Kozilek lists with the 4th Top and no moxes.

Sintheros
03-21-2011, 10:57 PM
He isn't playing any Maze in the 75, hence my concern.

deezy
03-22-2011, 09:56 AM
I run 1 bog 1 maze and 1 karakas main as my utility land package for knight....In my opinion I love bog main....Its 1 land in the deck that CITPT....you can play around it early or pitch it to mox if its not needed....There are just way to many uses for it main...Its boss against dredge if you open with it...you usually win, If you stick an early knight you usually win....It can hit a graveyard and keep your oppnent off of tombstalker or ghastly demise....You can win knight wars you can block and shrink a theyre knight....It keeps goblins from any chance of a bidding if they play any...The current meta has so many uses for bog...I find more the longer I run it....

The Pharmacist
03-22-2011, 04:04 PM
So I want to play this deck. What list do you guys think is better? This list came in 2nd at a 100 man tournament this past weekend that I was at. What do you think of this list?


4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Knight
4 Hymn
4 thoughtseize
4 vindicate
4 swords
3 mox
3 top
1 elspeth
1 E.E.
1 IoK
3 bayou
3 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 canopy
1 maze
4 marsh flats
4 catacombs
2 swamp
1 plains


S/b
1 bojuka
1 Karakas
2 deed
2 duress
2 edict
3 grip
4 plague

Arsenal
03-22-2011, 04:10 PM
Looks like a pretty standard Mox list. Not really sure what sets it apart from other Mox lists; Mox lists generally have about 2-3 flex spots, where that guy is playing IoK, EE, and Elspeth. Those 3 cards can be almost anything you want.

The Pharmacist
03-22-2011, 04:21 PM
I can't seam to find a no mox list. Maybe someone can post one or just tell me whats in the mox spot

JonBarber
03-22-2011, 04:31 PM
So I want to play this deck. What list do you guys think is better? This list came in 2nd at a 100 man tournament this past weekend that I was at. What do you think of this list?


4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Knight
4 Hymn
4 thoughtseize
4 vindicate
4 swords
3 mox
3 top
1 elspeth
1 E.E.
1 IoK
3 bayou
3 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 canopy
1 maze
4 marsh flats
4 catacombs
2 swamp
1 plains


S/b
1 bojuka
1 Karakas
2 deed
2 duress
2 edict
3 grip
4 plague

I got 7th place in that same tournament with almost an identical maindeck. The only difference was -1 es +1 karakas. I'm a big fan of this version of the deck

The Pharmacist
03-22-2011, 04:37 PM
What are the bad match ups? Btw nice job Jon. I watched a few of your games

Arsenal
03-22-2011, 04:43 PM
I can't seam to find a no mox list. Maybe someone can post one or just tell me whats in the mox spot

sdematt pointed out this non-Mox list a page back: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37281

In place of Mox, this pilot chose to have more 1cc turn 1 plays in the form of 4 Tops and going up to 2 IoK (combined with 4 Thoughtseize and 4 StP is 14 total turn 1 plays that all are pretty badass).

In the end, it really boils down to your feelings about Mox Diamond. Some players swear by it as it sometimes allows your powerful 2cc spells to be played on turn 1, mana fixes, dodges Wasteland, and pumps your Knight/Goyf. Others dislike it due to inconsistency issues (opening hand of Wasteland, Mox, Plains can be awkward), being a horrible topdeck, and the thought that our curve is enough to manage the game (no need to mana accel as our turn 1 plays should be buff).

sdematt
03-23-2011, 03:31 AM
Went to a tournament tonight, and obviously took it down playing a new list. It's pretty Deadguy, but I don't know anyone in there, so I'll share it in both.

The list:

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland


2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 SoFI
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Revoker


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Top
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Dark Ritual

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
1 Retribution of the Meek
3 Tariff
2 Perish
3 Duress
2 Serenity

Round 1: Dave with Merfolk

Game 1:
A newcomer to Legacy, Dave was playing Merfolk. I get stuck on two lands, he lands Lord, Jitte, Reejery, Reejery. I die.

Board in: 4 Plague, Out: 1 Hymn, 1 Revoker, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Random

Game 2:
A little different story. I grind him out with Revoker on Vial, then push with heavy discard and run out a Vampire Nighthawk with Jitte. I get there. Nighthawk is SO freaking good here.

Game 3:
I open a hand of Marsh Flats, Swamp, 2 Dark Ritual, Vampire Nighthawk, 2 Abyssal Persecutor. I run out T1 Nighthawk with T2 Persecutor. He dies shortly.

Score: 2-1 in games, 1-0 in matches

Round 2: Matt with Merfolk

Game 1:
He mulls to five, but I get stuck on two lands with all three drops. I scoop to save time after he triple Standstills.

In: 4 Plague, Out: some discard

Game 2:
I ritual into T1 Engineered Plague. He doesn't have Force, but shows me the Daze without the Island down. I get there by discarding his Lords and beating face.

Game 3:
I wreck him with another T1 Plague, but he fights through it. It gets to about turn 15 when I've finally got complete control with a singleton Nighthawk online. He Echoing Truths my Plague, then spits out Lords and other goodies with Force backup. I reply back with Swords of Fire and Ice, Jitte, and Plague from my hand. He can't counter them all, Nighthawk gets there so hard.

Score: 4-2 in games, 2-0 record.

Round 3: Chad with the mirror

The reason I built this was I helped a friend get into Legacy after 15+ years out of the game. This deck was cheap enough to build, and fun to play. His list was my list with no Stoneforges, but Vindicates and Innocent Bloods.

Game 1:
The mirror here is absolutely horrible. We play a 50 minute game of lay a threat, RFG it. It comes down to a Top war, but I basically run out of cards. Literally, I basically died by milling. Ugh.

Game 2: I quickly get there, but he decides to give me the 2-0 so I can crush the finals if I cut him into the prize. Seems good, so I do that. No boarding here.

Round 4: Mani with R/B Painter (Caleb's list)

We decide to draw it, but I forget to ask what he's playing before we draw. I decide to take the draw but we play it out. suffice to say, I fucked his shit up.

Game 1:
He lays a Grindstone early on, but I hit him with heavy discard. The first game was T1 Ritual into Hymn and Top, hitting his Painter and Intuition. I lay a T2 Revoker on Grindstone. He can't counter, and tries to slow roll with Welder. I Edict it, and lay Confidant which is countered. I try Nighthawk, he forces again. I land another threat and he scoops.

I ask him while sideboarding how the Emrakul plan works out, and he says pretty good. I board in Tariffs, Retribution, and Serenity.

Board in: 1 Retribution of the Meek, 3 Tariff, 3 Duress. Out: Abyssal Persecutor, useless cards. At this point, I was threat light with all answers.

Game 2:
He tries to slow roll the Grindstone again, but I Revoker him. He switches to the Show and Tell plan to try and blow me out. He Intuitions for 3 SnT, I Top draw another land for the lols. I'm holding a Tariff and 2 Serenity. I Tariff it away to the crowd's "WTF?" statements, and pay for my Revoker. Afterwards, I try to push, but he counters many threats with Painter on blue and pitching lands to Force. He goes for 3 Emrakuls with another Intuition, making his new Welder useless. I Tariff away the second Emrakul and proceed to lay fat Nighthawk beats.

I receive $25 store credit for my efforts, and buy most of the deck which I was borrowing :)

Record: 8-2 games, 4-0 rounds

Props: Equipment, and Tariff was a fucking champ.

Slops: Not bringing most of my cards, and the store selling me a Beta dual.

All in all, a good day :)

-Matt

Spacemagic
03-23-2011, 12:10 PM
im a deadguy player, and that there tariff in your board is sexy...

Sintheros
03-23-2011, 03:49 PM
I got 7th place in that same tournament with almost an identical maindeck. The only difference was -1 es +1 karakas. I'm a big fan of this version of the deck

Neither of you two played Deed main. Why is this? It's awfully good, especially with Affinity on the rise again.

Evincarcrovax
03-23-2011, 04:03 PM
Hi guys I need your help on deciding something. I'll be going to a T2 tournament this Sunday and I know there will be lots of people there selling cards. So I'm planning on getting some stuff for my rock deck if I can. I have about $70 that I can spend and would like some suggestion on what the best cards would be to get. Here is what my current list looks like:

1 Twilight Mire
3 Treetop Village
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Brushland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Tainted Field
2 Tainted Wood
4 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Elspheth, Knight-Errant

4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary

SB:
4 Enginnered Plague
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
2 Dueling Grounds
2 Enlightened Tutor

I would like it to remain as a control rock deck. Some things I was thinking of are some more Windswept Heaths, an Eternal Witness and maybe some Sensei's Divinating Tops. Any suggestions?

Arsenal
03-23-2011, 04:34 PM
Neither of you two played Deed main. Why is this? It's awfully good, especially with Affinity on the rise again.

Mox builds typically don't play Deed for obvious reasons. It may play EE instead, but that's really a flex/meta slot to tinker with, so there's no definitive inclusion warranted for it. Non-Mox builds though? Deed is pretty boss.

sdematt
03-23-2011, 06:13 PM
Brad Nelson's list played Mox and Deed, but that's just crazy talk :P

I will play Deed in this deck, always and forever, just to watch Affinity cry.

-Matt

trivial_matters
03-23-2011, 06:25 PM
I'm interested in building this deck. Anyway, my question is why Volrath's Stronghold isn't used so much. Seems good when you can tutor for it with Knight of the Reliquary.

sdematt
03-23-2011, 06:26 PM
It's very slow is the main problem, and you have no way to get it back if it dies (since it will be used in the long-game, it'll probably get Wastelanded).

-Matt

JonBarber
03-23-2011, 06:31 PM
I choose not to play deed because I honestly felt I didn't need it for the vestal meta. Sure its a blow out against affinity, but that was really the only matchup I was finding it all that needed against. I felt my merfolk matchup was already stupid good, and the two jitte's I played in place of it improved the matchup just as much and was still quite good against affinity (the only creature it doesn't kill is Enforcer, etherium, and ravager).

Sintheros
03-23-2011, 06:54 PM
Can't Jitte be an issue with so few things to stick it on? If a Goyf or Knight is swinging you're probably already winning, and a Bob swinging with it is likely dying in the process.

JonBarber
03-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Can't Jitte be an issue with so few things to stick it on? If a Goyf or Knight is swinging you're probably already winning, and a Bob swinging with it is likely dying in the process.

I was concerned about the same thing but didn't really find it to be a problem. So often you lose to merfolk and goblins because your single knight/goyf isn't enough to race their entire team, and your stuck having to sit on defense. A goyf equipped with a jitte suddenly becomes very hard for fish and goblins to race.

I also found Jitte to be extremely useful vs the faster versions of zoo. The deck loses so much life so quickly it can be hard to deal with that matchup. Jitte makes short work of steppe lynxs and provides critical life gain in the late game.

The Pharmacist
03-23-2011, 08:07 PM
Has anyone thought about dropping the mox diamond for birds? Seams like a extra dude could be good. I understand birds won't swing for the win here, but it has to be better late game over the mox

Sintheros
03-23-2011, 08:11 PM
I was concerned about the same thing but didn't really find it to be a problem. So often you lose to merfolk and goblins because your single knight/goyf isn't enough to race their entire team, and your stuck having to sit on defense. A goyf equipped with a jitte suddenly becomes very hard for fish and goblins to race.

I also found Jitte to be extremely useful vs the faster versions of zoo. The deck loses so much life so quickly it can be hard to deal with that matchup. Jitte makes short work of steppe lynxs and provides critical life gain in the late game.

It's times like that where Deed would come in handy.

ivanpei
03-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Has anyone tried a more Suicide version of the rock with Dark Rituals and Sinkholes? I tested it abit yesterday and it was pretty good. Similar to Team America, it tries to screw your opponent's manabase and quickly win. Unlike Team America, we can run the ultimate Landscrewer/ Win con in Knight and We have + 8 Screw spells (4 Vindicate, 4 Sinkholes). I was redirected back here from the eva-green thread. Here's the list I've been testing:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 KOTR

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
4 Sinkhole

4 Vindicate
4 STP

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
10 Black Fetch
4 Wasteland

Been testing well for me. Bob and Knight have been brilliant in the Sui plan. Anyone else tried the Dark Ritual + Sinkhole path?

Arsenal
03-23-2011, 09:50 PM
The problem is that you're running 16 cards that don't use Dark Ritual. I think inconsistency issues will lose you more games than Dark Ritual + Thoughtseize + Sinkhole will win you.

ivanpei
03-23-2011, 10:30 PM
On the contrary, Dark Ritual is mostly cast on T2 and not T1. The only thing I can't cast of a T2 Dark Ritual is KOTR and STP. With so many 2 mana bombs in the deck, my Turn 2 plays are usually double 2 cc spells. Can be a combination of Hymm, Bob, Sinkhole, Goyf. It can also be ThoughtSeize/Inquisition + Vindicate. I do admit there are inconsistencies in any Sui deck, but its nice to have a change of direction at times. This list tries to by pass the midgame slugfest by heavy screwing early.

I don't think the suicide plan should be dismissed completely. Probably not very good in an open random meta, but it could be very strong in a combo-controllish meta where your screw can get you there more effectively than playing traditional rock lists.

RexFTW
03-24-2011, 09:14 AM
Junk
A Legacy Magic deck, by Sang Jung
7th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Fort Worth, Texas, United States on 2011-03-20
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com/open_series
Click here to see a summary of all decks from StarCityGames.com Invitational
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Extirpate
1 Duress
2 Perish

RexFTW
03-24-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm interested in building this deck. Anyway, my question is why Volrath's Stronghold isn't used so much. Seems good when you can tutor for it with Knight of the Reliquary.

one is good in the board if you are really scared of landstill.

sdematt
03-24-2011, 05:25 PM
Landstill usually runs basically 6-8 Swords, though.

-Matt

ivanpei
03-24-2011, 08:32 PM
one is good in the board if you are really scared of landstill.

I'd rather have more chokes. :)

The Pharmacist
03-25-2011, 09:40 PM
How much do we need the wastelands for this deck? It's really the only thing from holding me back from playing it. it seams like adding more basic lands can't be bad. Maybe even the 4th mox?

sdematt
03-25-2011, 10:35 PM
You could easily run 8 basics and another Mox in this deck. It'd run a little bit more out of whack but you'd gain infinite stability against Wasteland decks. If you can't afford the Wastes, I'd say that sounds like a decent plan (Tec edge doesn't cut it) if you're a little strapped for Wastes. In that case, I'd run a Pulse for 1 Vindicate, since your land-denial plan is a little less effective without Wasteland. Maybe not, though.

The price of duals has me crying. Damn you StarCity!

-MAtt

Sintheros
03-26-2011, 04:57 AM
The Moxen are more optional than the wastelands. The way I see it, it goes kinda like:

4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 Knight

4 Swords
4 Seize
4 Hymn
3 Top
4 Vindicate

are the required 'shell' of the deck that really everyone goes by (assuming you aren't doing GSZ shenanigans or Stoneforge/Pridemage/Mom stuff)

Which leaves you 5 to 6 slots with which to play around. Some stuff you can put in there include...
-The 4th top
-1 to 2 IoK's
-1 to 3 Moxen
-1 to 2 Deeds
-1 to 2 Elspeths
-an EE
-1 to 2 PtE's
-a Jitte

And so on.

AggroSteve
03-26-2011, 07:05 AM
i think i will move to a moxless build, ... the inconsistency of the moxen was a bit disturbing, and if i had mox it rarely mattered, and since i am allready running 2 deeds main it is quite antisynergistic, it even happened to me that i manascrewed myself because i was forced to blow up a deed, when i had a mox in play

i think i know now very well the upsides and the downsides of the moxbuilds, so i will try swithing to a non-mox build for more synergy, and more business-spells

another thing that i have been thinking of lately.... does anyone still use bojuka bog?, it does not feel like its worth anymore, and did anyone try to use tidehollow skuller (in the gerrards verdict slot)?

The Pharmacist
03-26-2011, 07:57 AM
i think i will move to a moxless build, ... the inconsistency of the moxen was a bit disturbing, and if i had mox it rarely mattered, and since i am allready running 2 deeds main it is quite antisynergistic, it even happened to me that i manascrewed myself because i was forced to blow up a deed, when i had a mox in play

i think i know now very well the upsides and the downsides of the moxbuilds, so i will try swithing to a non-mox build for more synergy, and more business-spells

another thing that i have been thinking of lately.... does anyone still use bojuka bog?, it does not feel like its worth anymore, and did anyone try to use tidehollow skuller (in the gerrards verdict slot)?

I'm not going to run Bojuka Bog in my build. Like you said, I don't think it's worth it.

My friend runs Tidehollow Sculler in his deck and loves him. I really don't like him. I guess you could add him in the flex spots.

sdematt
03-26-2011, 11:46 AM
I run a 1-of Bog in the board now, and have replaced it's spot in the main with a basic Swamp, so I'm running 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Plains. It's been stellar.

-Matt

AggroSteve
03-26-2011, 04:42 PM
I'm not going to run Bojuka Bog in my build. Like you said, I don't think it's worth it.

My friend runs Tidehollow Sculler in his deck and loves him. I really don't like him. I guess you could add him in the flex spots.

i was now wondering what kind of deck your friend is playing tidehollow sculler in, is it a rock-build or something else?

mishima_kazuya
03-26-2011, 08:56 PM
I made top 8 of a small 38 person mox tournament.

/ Lands
1 [IN] Plains (1)
1 [US] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (3)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [A] Savannah
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2[CFX] Noble Hierarch
1[RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [OD] Terravore
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Decknotes: I scouted the room and asked Matt Elias if I should cut Engineered Plagues from the my SB. I didn't see too many Goblins, so I decided to cut the Plagues. I randomly picked up 2 Jittes from my binder because the tournament was starting soon, and obviously those Jittes were stone blanks in my SB. Matt Elias was playing Elf Ball and I obviously beat him in the quarterfinals when he whiffed on his Glimpse of Natures.



Round 1:
Beat UR Painterstone

Round 2:
Beat Team America

Round 3: Lost to Enchantress
I forgot the deck played red mana for Words of War and I didn't think he had Blood Moon. So game 3 I got blown out when I fetched up all duals instead of basics and died to his Blood Moon. He also resolved a Humility, but it didn't matter if I could just cast Pernicious Deed.

Round 4: Lost to NO Bant.
It was one of those situations where you 2 for 1 them almost every play but still loose.
I had a 9/9 KotR, a Noble hierarch, and I was at 4 life. He was at 20 with 5-6 lands and only a force of Will in hand.
He topdecks Green Sun's Zenith and tutors for his last tarmogoyf and then proceeds to use said goyf to chump block my Knight when he could have used a fetchland to get dryad arbor and send the goyf in for lethal if he draws a removal spell for my Noble Hierarch.
Then he topdecks another Green Sun's Zenith, makes x=2 and tutor up a Noble Hierarch. Then he randomly decides to not chump block my Knight and goes to 10. Then he, of course, topdecks Natural Order for the Progenitus to kill me...

Round 5: Frustrated that I lost to runner runner and that I punted in round 3 I still play it out for a small chance to top 8.
I beat merfolk this round.

Round 6: My breakers are really good as my Enchantress opponent went undefeated.
I get paired against Uwbr countertop with thopter foundry. I win to get the 8th place spot.

Quarterfinals: I beat Elf Ball

Semifinals: I punted against affinity.
I won game 1. Should have sided out Thoughtseizes game 2, but I kept them in and he obviously dumped his hand to blank my discard.
Game 3 I misplay a Swords to Plowshares, take 10 from a Cranial Plated Ornithopter and die to my Dark Confidant trigger. Quick little note...he also didn't know Pernicious Deed was a card as he set all his Pithing Needles on Wastelands or Qasali Pridemages. I obviously never drew the Deeds.


Based on the 5k results and my experiences in Legacy lately, it looks like this format has spiraled into an arms race between aggro-control decks and combo decks.

I love playing Rock decks, but I think I'm probably playing a combo deck next time as playing fair magic is getting pretty miserable.

The Pharmacist
03-26-2011, 09:09 PM
i was now wondering what kind of deck your friend is playing tidehollow sculler in, is it a rock-build or something else?

It's a rock/deadguy mix. He's a big fan of them, and they work in his deck

The Pharmacist
03-26-2011, 09:14 PM
@ Mishima_Kazuya nice job on the top 8. One question for you. Why did u play Hierarch over Birds? Seams like you would want the black mana

mishima_kazuya
03-26-2011, 09:19 PM
I like Hierarch cuz it attacks and helps you win Goyf battles. I'm not sure if 2 birds and 1 hierarch is correct or if it is vice versa.

I'll most likely be taking a break from playing fair magic, but if I had to play this deck again, I'd cut the Jittes for a 3rd Deed and some more combo hate, maybe a 3rd Duress?

The Pharmacist
03-26-2011, 09:22 PM
In my list I run mox diamond and E.E. It just seams to work better for me. I don't like deed because it blows up your diamonds

sdematt
03-27-2011, 03:00 AM
I placed second in a GPT today. Anyone want to hear about it?

-Matt

Solar Ice
03-27-2011, 04:34 AM
I placed second in a GPT today. Anyone want to hear about it?

-Matt

Go for it mate, write an extensive report :)

AggroSteve
03-27-2011, 06:28 AM
I placed second in a GPT today. Anyone want to hear about it?

-Matt

ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^^

RexFTW
03-27-2011, 11:55 AM
Deed is SOOOO good vs vial. Kill the vial and the guys pooping out of it. Also consider how big your goyf will be after adding enchantment artifact and creature to the yard. Fat goyfs are pretty good against goblins and merefolk I hear :).

RexFTW
03-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Decknotes: I scouted the room and asked Matt Elias if I should cut Engineered Plagues from the my SB. I didn't see too many Goblins, so I decided to cut the Plagues.

Plague is not only good against goblins and elfs. Its not tividar's crusade lol.

Its also quite strong against some decks you would not expect:
Ichorid (horrors or vampires or zombies, depending on what kind of grave hate or hand you have)
Some bant decks (human: mother of runes, mangara, noble heirarch or in emergencies soldier: elspeth)
Belcher (goblins)
death and taxes (human)

A lot of cards have errata to be creature type human. If it looks like a human in the picture and doesnt have a "race" like elf or kor as one of its types, it is probably a human! You can look this up at gatherer.wizards.com .

RexFTW
03-27-2011, 12:56 PM
I have won 6 small tournaments in the last 2 months using this list (out of 7 played). I believe this is the most consistent and stable build of the deck. However it doesnt have a lot of the "cool" things like Stoneforge Mystic.

It has a good game against every deck I have played against. I have not run into anything that just dominates it.

// Lands
2 [A] Bayou
4 [REW] Wasteland
1 [PT] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Scrubland
2 [AT] Swamp
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FNM] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


I am confidant that this is also the optimal board plan. It is not answers to a specific deck, as there are far too many out there to be sideboarding against only single ones. Here is why each is in the board:

Pernicious Deed and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:
Bring this in against any horde strategy or AEther Vial strategy. Decks include Goblins, merefolk, Charbelcher, Dredge and many more.
Also quite effective against the prison strategies like enchantress and Stax (deed that is).

Bojuka Bog:
Lets you win the Knight of the Reliquary war against other Knight of the Reliquary decks. Also randomly good against graveyard strategies.

Extirpate:
Strong vs any combo deck or decks relying on certain cardss to win. Common targets include Doomsday, High Tide, Time Spiral, Natural Order, Life from the Loam.

Diabolic Edict:
This comes in vs fast aggro decks and decks that play big unfair creatures (ie Natural Order or Show and Tell).

Engineered Plague:
see previous post.

Duress:
Combo or control decks.


common question: Why the 1 maindeck Pernicious Deed?
Answer: This provides a maindeck answer to the heavy control permanent based strategies. For example thopter combo, stax etc. Also, it is only poor against a few decks, primarily combo. You can search for it with Top + shuffle.

Zamussels
03-27-2011, 11:44 PM
@RexFTW

So basically you are running Brad Nelson's list from GP Columbus (knew i'd seen that list somewhere) except you cut the Horizon Canopy for a Polluted Delta... strange swap? People were saying Mox + Deed was awkward, aren't you having problems with that especially with the extra deeds in the sideboard? Do you side out the Moxen when you side in the Deeds?

@sdematt

Looking forwards to a report, I might play a deck like this (or Eli Kassis' junk with Jittes / Mother / Pridemage) in GPT soon!

More general question to everyone: Would you play this deck in a meta with a lot of Natural Order combo decks, and combo being overrepresented in general... painter, storm, etc? There is also a lot of Merfolk and I'm guessing some people without the staples will start playing affinity soon, which should be good matchups.

sdematt
03-28-2011, 12:07 AM
And now, for the tournament report:

So, I decide an hour before the event to attend. I've finished most of an essay, but decide to take a break by playing magic. I've loaned out 90% of my staples so other people could play, so after a few frantic phone calls and heavy speeding, I arrive at the tournament site and assemble my deck. I decide to go with B/W Aggro that I made up, since I didn't have cards for any other deck. I borrowed some equipment, sleeved up Revokers, and went to town.

B/W Gate

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Swords of Fire and Ice

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Dark Ritual
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Board:
3 Tariff
1 Retribution of the Meek
1 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate

-----------

I sleeve the deck up, grab a coffee and fruit juice, and ponder over using my Beta duals. I decide not to, and go into Round 1 facing a my worst nightmare: Dredge.

Round 1: Tony with White Stax

Turns out, Tony wasn't playing Dredge and I was happy. Problem was, he was playing White Stax. Fuck my life. I Thoughtseize away a Crucible, and strip a Smokestack and Armageddon with Hymn. He Chalices at one, then gets some Moxen up, then blows me out with 2 Armageddons with Magus on board. Frick.

Loss

Board out: Swords, etc.
Board in: Crypt, Duress, Extirpate

Game 2, I destroy him with discard then kill him with Persecutor.

Game 3, I do the same thing. Thank god.

Score:
2-1 in game, 1-0 in rounds.

Round 2: Niko with U/B Merfolk

I know Nike's on Merfolk, and I Revoker his Vial after the Thoughtseize taking Daze. I try to come back, but I start drawing dead and die to triple Reejerey.

Board in: 4 Engineered Plague
Board out: 2 Hymn, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Therapy

I destroy him on the play with discard and multiple equipment on a Nighthawk. I follow it up with an E. Plague for good measure.

Game 3, I do much of the same, except I use more removal and less equipment. Niko's a good Folk player, I'm glad I played him.

Score: 4-2 Games, 2-0 Rounds

Round 3: Matt W/ with Mono U Merfolk

I really didn't want to play Matt, but I had to. This goes much the same way as the previous round, where I remove Lords and use Equipments and Engineered Plagues to push through.

Score: 6-3 games, 3-0 Rounds.

Round 4: Mani playing Caleb Durward's Welder list

We intentionally draw so we can make Top 8. Tournament was 5 rounds before cut to Top 8.

Round 5: Edward playing Elves

We draw again so I can get real coffee, not the swill they have at 7-11.

Top 8: Mani with Welder, Matt W with Merfolk, Niko with U/b Folk, James H (Plague Sliver on here) with Zoo, Enriquo with Thresh, Matt P (me) with B/W Aggro, Edward with Elves, Arnold with R/b Goblins.

Round 1: Matt W with Merfolk

It plays out exactly as before, but I beat him in two games, using Revoker many times. Revoker is so good against Merfolk and, well, everything.

Win

Score: 8-2 games, 4-0-2 in rounds

Round 2: Mani with Welder

Game 1, he turn 2 Grinds me. Whatever.

Board in: 3 Tariff, 3 Duress
Out: Random

I have him on the Emrakul board in, but I never saw it. I make him discard, then Extirpate his Grindstone. I search but he didn't board Emrakul. He starts on the 3 Painter's Servant beatdown, I throw Revokers in the way until I hit real gas: Nighthawks. I eventually get there after being really tired and frustrated.

Game 3, I notice he boards in, so I fake sideboard in more cards, then just remove them. I figure he's on Emrakul. I Waste and discard him into oblivion with Turn 1 Ritual into 2 Thoughtseize and a Top. He doesn't recover, he shakes wile I show him the 2 Diabolic Edict 1 Tariff hand. He cringes.

Round 3: James H (Plague Sliver) with Zoo

The matchup I didn't want to see, since he's my friend, but we're both going to the GP. I lose both games badly, the first to mana screw, and the second to mana flood. Not much to say here.

------
I'm glad I took down second, but it didn't feel like a victory. I'm glad I lose to James H though, since he's the best person to lose to. Oh well, but congrats James!

Props: Revoker, Tim Horton's coffee, Dark Rituals
Slops: Mana floods and mana screws.


------------ AND NOW, BACK TO ROCK

@ Diabolic Edict

So many times I've found Edict depressing against Emrakul/Progenitus. Sometimes they have another random dude on board they you don't have a second removal for, or just can't get rid of. Because of this, I've switched to Tariff instead. It kills Emrakul, Progenitus, and any other nasty big creature you don't like. It doesn't serve double duty as more general kill, but it does what you want it to do better: kill Emrakul and Progenitus.



-Matt

RexFTW
03-28-2011, 10:07 AM
@RexFTW
People were saying Mox + Deed was awkward, aren't you having problems with that especially with the extra deeds in the sideboard? Do you side out the Moxen when you side in the Deeds?

Well if they are siding out the moxen when they bring in the deed, that is probably why they think the deed is too slow. The moxen are quite good with deed because of the speed you can play it at. The decks you are bringing in deed against it becomes a 4:1 or better so losing your mox is usally an acceptable loss.

Also, if you dont want the faster deed just hold your mox and play it later. You will have the same amount of land. Mox is needed against some decks u need deed for like tribal. There is moderate risk of back to basics or blood moon there.


So basically you are running Brad Nelson's list from GP ColumbusCorrect. There are minor changes to the board.

Zamussels
03-28-2011, 09:06 PM
So I tried Rex's version in a small tournament tonight, except I had Bojuka Bog and Horizon Canopy maindeck, no Tabernacle in the sideboard, and 2 Nihil Spellbomb instead of 2 Extirpate. Managed to beat Dredge, but lost to Merfolk and Affinity. Seems to me Affinty is a good matchup with 3 Deeds total, but I never saw one. Maybe I should have mulliganed more agressively to get them. Owell, might try it again at a GPT or go back to Team America... decisions, decisions!

damionblackgear
03-28-2011, 11:24 PM
With the meta turning into what it is, I'd suggest changing your disruption package to manabase instead of a hand. You won't have to killer starts but you'll be better equiped for the non TES combo decks and still have game on the aggro and other mid-ranged decks.

sdematt
03-29-2011, 01:18 AM
My experience at the GPT has gotten me thinking about my need for bigger creatures in Ale, which naturally brought me back to Rock, but for a different build. Of course the mana instability of going to 3 colours sucks, but, it's hard to be able to run the best colours in Magic, so I'll take my chances :)

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vampire Nighthawk

As your creature base, along with some Equipment (don't necessarily need Stoneforge, but if we have room, it can go in)

1 Jitte
1 SoFI

Some hand disruption

4 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of K.

Some removal

4 Swords
2 Edict/Path

Basically, it'd be like building regular Rock minus Deeds, Elspeths, or big stuff. Basically, you're just playing like Deadguy: discard, removal, and good creatures.

Thoughts? I'm not talking Junk and Taxes (no Vials, for the love of God) and no Mangara (seriously). Just throwing ideas around with my Deadguy success.

-Matt

Rainbow Maker
03-29-2011, 05:06 AM
well, if you would be willing to try it you could do an e-tutor package in the main. It may seem janky but you could try a x1 spellbomb + equipments, tops. anyway, i would add tops, mom, atleast a couple of vindicates, you could try pridemage if you opted for no vindicates. i always did like a singleton grunt. In all honesty he rarely shrinks goyf. He's good. also if you give the argument that it shrinks knight. You can likely shrink theirs, most decks run knight that aren't some form of combo. I guess it makes stalker harder to cast too. Maybe sculler...

Sintheros
03-29-2011, 05:13 AM
Having trouble coming up with the right sideboard.

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas

4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 Knight

4 Seize
2 IoK
4 Hymn
4 Swords
1 Path
3 Top
4 Vindicate
2 Deed
1 Elspeth, KE

SB (20 cards, help me cut things!):
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Duress
1 Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Perish
2 Krosan Grip

I'm thinking -2 KGrip -1 Extirpate -1 Perish -1 Deed, but then I'm pretty dead to Counterbalance. And Deed is awfully good too....

Eatatjoes
03-29-2011, 05:36 AM
Played junk at the legacy 5k in la. Finished in 18th place. The deck was strong all day. My 2 losses were to bugstill jace (played by owen turtenwald) and burn (piloted by patrick sullivan) Burn was the only deck i was trying to dodge all day, i felt confidant in all my other matchups.

I played the same list i previously posted, but changed some sideboard slots after seeing alot of affinity and tribal at the legacy challenge on saturday. I think this deck is well positioned in the current metagame, since alot of people have been playing team america, and junk is the favorite in that matchup.

ivanpei
03-29-2011, 05:40 AM
Congrats man! Brainstorm in burn make me laugh though. It's funny how most of us missed how a semi combo deck might want some further consistency.

sdematt
03-29-2011, 10:00 AM
There's nothing you can do against Burn unless you wanted to pack 4 Kitchen Finks or 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the board, so don't feel bad. BUGStill can also just get there sometimes if you can't ip them apart early enough. Again, don't feel bad. Congrats on the finish! :)

@sintheros

Are you really that dead to Counterbalance? You're playing a ton of 3-drops and 10 1-point discard main. I don't FEEL you need Grip, but if it's really a problem with the few 3-drops they run, adding more 3-drops to help battle it probably won't help. I've had CB players smartly float 3's all day for Grip, unfortunately.

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Duress
1 Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Perish
2 Krosan Grip

Firstly, Perish is good against you, so playing it is kinda crap. I think you're playing it due to Progenitus, so don't fear. Cut it.

Teegs are good, but what are you thinking of playing against? Stax? don't know if it's really necessary. It kills Natural order and GSZ, true, but not sure if you REALLY need it.

I'd opt for more Duresses here, since when fighting combo, you wanted the fastest answer as soon as possible. Teeg may be too slow. If you're using Teeg for combo, another option is Cannonist.

If you fear Affinity, just throw in 4 Kataki, and you'll just destroy them. 4 null Rod would work, but I figure you like Topping from time to time.

Reworked:

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Deed
3 Tariff

Or if you know you're not facing Dredge and will be facing infinite Affinity, change the 'Pates to Kataki, War's Wage.

-Matt

RexFTW
03-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Extirpate is not just for Dredge. Its also amazing against life from the loam and combo.

Sintheros
03-29-2011, 06:09 PM
The Teegs are so good against combo though.

Shuts off Dread Return, Breakthrough, Turnabout, Time Spiral, NO, AdN, Tendrils, EtW, Belcher, and others. And many combo decks just don't have creature removal.

The Pharmacist
03-29-2011, 07:18 PM
The Teegs are so good against combo though.

Shuts off Dread Return, Breakthrough, Turnabout, Time Spiral, NO, AdN, Tendrils, EtW, Belcher, and others. And many combo decks just don't have creature removal.

But they have Chain of Vapor and echoing truth

RexFTW
03-29-2011, 08:47 PM
But they have Chain of Vapor and echoing truth

True, but he is probably as good as time walk, which i hear is pretty good.

JonBarber
03-30-2011, 01:16 AM
I'm personally a huge fan of teeg. This deck can struggle in the late game vs combo, and teeg prevents them from just topdecking a win (IE Ad Naus, Time Spiral, or Natural Order). Its nearly impossible for them to hold up bounce and try and dig for a win. Teeg is also great at fighting EE, Jace, and other shinanagins of the sort. Canonist slows you down as well, and is susceptible to more types of hate. I definitely feel Teeg is better than duress in the board, and I encourage others to try it for themselves.

Sintheros
03-30-2011, 01:25 AM
Tariff seems interesting. On one hand, its really good against Emrakul/Progenitus. On the other hand, you lose a dude yourself, so it's not all that great in other scenarios.

JonBarber
03-30-2011, 01:27 AM
Tariff seems interesting. On one hand, its really good against Emrakul/Progenitus. On the other hand, you lose a dude yourself, so it's not all that great in other scenarios.

The other hesitation I have with Tariff is that its not an answer to a hardcast emrakul (cloud post decks/doomsday) as well as sneak attack.

The Pharmacist
03-30-2011, 06:13 AM
I think I rather just play Diabolic Edict over Tariff. Edict is a instant

deezy
03-30-2011, 12:06 PM
I also love teeg.....Hes just good...He has cool interaction with karakus also....Ive used him to continualy chump till I get a big boy to finish....Alos hes not bad versus decks that play this little card some of you might have heard of.....Force of will.....turning off a free hard counter can help alot.......

sdematt
03-30-2011, 02:02 PM
Really, you're playing Tariff vs. Edict for different reasons.

1) If Doomsday is playing the Cloud of Faeries version, Edict kills you, Tariff beats them. (Does Doomsday "cast" it? If so, then this doesn't matter)
2) NO Bant with some dudes goes for Natural order. Edict kills you, Tariff beats them (as long as it doesn't get countered).
3) If Elves goes with the NO plan, you beat them with Tariff.

4) If Elves hardcasts Emrakul, you'd lose either way.
5) If doomsday goes off with only Emrakul, then neither matters so long as you can untap, then you're fine anyway, if not, Edict.
6) If they show and Tell into either copy, Tariff will beat a build with any other creatures on board.
7) If you're going the long or short game, you can still pay for Tariff and your creature if they allow it to resolve (you'll be paying a max amount of 5 mana at any point in the game, but more likely 4).

Diabolic Edict is good, don't get me wrong. Instant speed sac is great in many situations. But, the situations we're using it for ARE for Progenitus and Emrakul based cheat decks. If they hardcast Emrakul, you're screwed anyways (assuming they have any creatures or counterspells). I figure we might as well find a card that targets (or chooses :P) the real problem here. I'm not saying Edict isn't better generally, because it is. But, for the purpose of beating the decks we're struggling with, Tariff, I believe is better.

@ Extirpate
Yes, I forgot to add those other decks, but I've discussed them ad nauseum previously (pun intended).

@ Doomsday
Does the creature off the Shelldock Isle considered cast? I'm assuming it is because it doesn't put it into play, it lets you play it for free.

@ Sneak Attack
I agree Tariff won't help you here, Diabolic Edict is strictly better here, but Pithing Needle, I'd say, is the best :)


-Matt

The Pharmacist
03-30-2011, 04:14 PM
Has anyone tried dropping the stoneforge and adding Enlightened Tutor in it's place? It still gets Equipment, but it would let us tutor up Deeds. Plus I think it would be really good for s/b use. Just a idea.

spider900
03-30-2011, 04:41 PM
@ Doomsday
Does the creature off the Shelldock Isle considered cast? I'm assuming it is because it doesn't put it into play, it lets you play it for free.


Your assumption is correct.

JonBarber
03-30-2011, 04:43 PM
Really, you're playing Tariff vs. Edict for different reasons.

1) If Doomsday is playing the Cloud of Faeries version, Edict kills you, Tariff beats them. (Does Doomsday "cast" it? If so, then this doesn't matter)
2) NO Bant with some dudes goes for Natural order. Edict kills you, Tariff beats them (as long as it doesn't get countered).
3) If Elves goes with the NO plan, you beat them with Tariff.

4) If Elves hardcasts Emrakul, you'd lose either way.
5) If doomsday goes off with only Emrakul, then neither matters so long as you can untap, then you're fine anyway, if not, Edict.
6) If they show and Tell into either copy, Tariff will beat a build with any other creatures on board.
7) If you're going the long or short game, you can still pay for Tariff and your creature if they allow it to resolve (you'll be paying a max amount of 5 mana at any point in the game, but more likely 4).

Diabolic Edict is good, don't get me wrong. Instant speed sac is great in many situations. But, the situations we're using it for ARE for Progenitus and Emrakul based cheat decks. If they hardcast Emrakul, you're screwed anyways (assuming they have any creatures or counterspells). I figure we might as well find a card that targets (or chooses :P) the real problem here. I'm not saying Edict isn't better generally, because it is. But, for the purpose of beating the decks we're struggling with, Tariff, I believe is better.

@ Extirpate
Yes, I forgot to add those other decks, but I've discussed them ad nauseum previously (pun intended).

@ Doomsday
Does the creature off the Shelldock Isle considered cast? I'm assuming it is because it doesn't put it into play, it lets you play it for free.

@ Sneak Attack
I agree Tariff won't help you here, Diabolic Edict is strictly better here, but Pithing Needle, I'd say, is the best :)


-Matt

You are wayy too worried about emrakul and progenitus. We already have a good matchup vs them because the only ways to cheat them into play revolve around 3 and 4cc spells. Between hand disruption and mana denial, the decks struggle to resolve these spells. Emrakul also is barely an issue thanks to karakas, and I can't begin to count the number of times I've raced progenitus with knight alone (I've yet to lose a race). Edict's main role is another quality removal spell that can hit any opposing creatures (ghastly demise, GFT, and path all have too many drawbacks). I find the card most valuable vs other knight decks, because keeping knight off the table becomes the most important part of the match. Edict has the splash ability to also deal with progenitus and emrakul, but shouldn't be its main purpose. Tariff is ONLY good vs emrakul/progenitus decks where your already favored to win. Tariff is terrible vs opposing knight decks because you need 4-5 mana to prevent the loss of your own creature if you have one in play, its sorcery speed, and often times they'll have enough open to pay for their creature.

Also, a common sideboarding strategy for junk is to play an e tutor board, but I dislike the card disadvantage as well as the more limited sb cards you can play.

Sintheros
03-30-2011, 07:32 PM
I'm thinking this, then.

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas

4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 Knight

4 Seize
2 IoK
4 Hymn
4 Swords
1 Path
3 Top
4 Vindicate
2 Deed
1 Elspeth, KE

SB
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Duress
1 Deed
2 Edict

If I can find some Diamonds I'd make room for them in the main, but until then.
This doesn't seem so hot against controllish decks though. We shall see.

Also, Jon, I'm the guy who was wandering around observing those legacy test games yesterday with the long hair, if you were paying attention.

ivanpei
03-30-2011, 08:48 PM
Edicts are there because they are versatile and not just to wreck Proggy/Emmy. I board them in against aggro like zoo etc as a 2 mana removal spell (though it's a bit crappy, but I'll take what I can get). If you really want a dedicated Fatty hate card, Tariff is much better definitely. Personally, I just play Damnation as my catchall. It catches aggro, Proggy, Emmy etc so it's incredibly flexible. With so much discard to Force your sweeper through, damnation is pretty good against Bant/Fish too.

deezy
03-30-2011, 11:07 PM
Edicts are there because they are versatile and not just to wreck Proggy/Emmy. I board them in against aggro like zoo etc as a 2 mana removal spell (though it's a bit crappy, but I'll take what I can get). If you really want a dedicated Fatty hate card, Tariff is much better definitely. Personally, I just play Damnation as my catchall. It catches aggro, Proggy, Emmy etc so it's incredibly flexible. With so much discard to Force your sweeper through, damnation is pretty good against Bant/Fish too.

I second that...I have a few damnations I move in and out of my board if I feel the meta calls for them....Since we already like the double black for hymm its perfect....

Rainbow Maker
03-31-2011, 01:26 AM
i think in deadguy ale you can get around using edicts because you have gatekeepers. However, tariff is just better in most circumstances. Are you really going to be that upsets? you loose 1 creature... it's better than loosing the game. It will always hit what you want it to. Unless progen and emmy are being bestest friends on the other side of the table. I am thinking going to switch bad to deadguy ale. Gatekeepers seem really strong(i realize progen etc. are on the down trend) he's just good in this slower format. Anyway, i think you should test teeg out matt. He was such a good sideboard card i was tempted to main 1. He shuts off, no, (sneak attack... no one plays that) ant, etw, tendrils, jace, elspeth, fow, submerge, ee, dread return, i guess a wog or doj, i guess fire blast... He is very stellar in a lot of match ups. If you run mystic burn isn't the worst match up ever. Still not good.

Bug jace is a hard matchup. Also, whoever said No anything is silly. NO is one of the worst matchups for us

Derm
03-31-2011, 04:15 AM
Here's what I've been working on. This slant on the deck is by no means my idea, but I like the way it runs a lot.


[4] Tarmogoyf
[4] Knight of the Reliquary
[3] Terravore

[4] Thoughtseize
[3] Inquisition of Kozilek
[4] Hymn to Tourach
[4] Sinkhole
[4] Vindicate
[4] Swords to Plowshares
[2] Engineered Explosives

[2] Horizon Canopy
[1] Savannah
[4] Bayou
[4] Scrubland
[4] Verdant Catacombs
[4] Marsh Flats
[1] Swamp
[4] Wasteland

You dedicate yourself to having either discard, land destruction, or both on turns 1, 2, and 3, crippling your opponent enough to let you land a guy. Against aggro you survive and play giant creatures. Against midrange and control you try to set up a Knight for card advantage and land lockout. Against combo you use your discard, drop a guy and race to the finish.

Creatures

Goyf for beats, Knight for lockout control (searching out Wastelands) and subsequent beats, or a Terravore for...beats. I wanted to keep the threat density in this deck very high. You never want to nut-punch your opponent via double Hymn or something awesome only to have no threat.

Discard

This deck includes four copies each of the two best discard spells in the game (Thoughtseize and Hymn) and a spunky newcomer in Inquisition of Kozilek. You pretty much only want to keep hands that have a turn 1 or 2 discard spell. Depending on the matchup, you have to mulligan somewhat aggressively for the targeted discard.

Before people complain about there being too much discard, I just want to say that I think this is the correct configuration and that contrary to popular belief, discard spells aren't dead later in the game. Drawing a Thoughtseize or an Inquisition that lets you force through a Knight or Terravore in a tight game is huge.

Land Destruction

A lot of people fear the land destruction strategy because of how dead the spells can be late in the game. I think this deck gets around some of that with Vindicate, which is obviously more than just land destruction. I also think that Sinkhole is too good to condemn. No, it's not a good turn 13 topdeck, but you can cast it so quickly that by the time your opponent has realized your intent to play the resource deprivation game, it's too late and you go Sinkhole-Vindicate or Sinkhole-Wasteland for the win. Note that a land destruction strategy has awesome synergy with our creatures.

Removal

Everyone knows the merits of Vindicate and Swords to Plowshares. 'Nuf said. The two Engineered Explosives are for utility, card advantage vs. aggro, and breaking through stuff like Counterbalance. While the deck can win quickly, it takes a control-ish role in many matchups. The Explosives excel there.

SB

[3] Gaddock Teeg
[3] Extirpate
[2] Darkblast
[1] Engineered Explosives
[2] Ghastly Demise
[2] Life from the Loam
[2] Consuming Vapors

Teeg is for combo and NO decks.
Extirpate is for combo, dredge, and Thopter nonsense.
Darkblast is awesome against Goblins, but it's also great in the mirror and pseudo-mirror. Any deck that's also using Goyfs, Knights, and Terravores to win is somewhat easily undone by this one little recurring stinger.
More EE for aggro and other appropriate matchups.
Ghastly Demise vs. aggro and Elf Combo
Life from the Loam is for the mirror, for control matchups where recurring Wastelands and Horizon Canopies could wreck them, and against decks that fuck with your land. This deck is very color hungry.
Consuming Vapors is primarily against Emrakul and Progenitus strategies, though it's quite nice against Zoo and other aggro as well. It's pricey, but it's card advantage and you gain some crucial life.

Questions

Does this deck need Bob? There are no expensive spells to worry about. The strategy does rely on overwhelming your opponent with resource deprivation, yet there isn't really a card advantage engine. Would Bob be good? What would you cut without changing the vision of the deck? There's no room for Tops as I see it, and I don't want to run a Mox Diamond list either.

Does the sideboard need more targeted removal? Is 4 STP + 3 EE + 2 Ghastly Demise good enough? Does it need Go for the Throat?

Does the sideboard need more untargeted removal? Is screwing with your opponent's hand and land enough to stop Progenitus and Emrakul? Progenitus can be raced quite often by a large Terravore, but that's not exactly plan A. Is 2 Consuming Vapors enough? What else is there? Diabolic Edict seems sort of weak, and I think cards that kill your guys (Retribution of the Meek, Tariff) are bad when you only have so many creature threats.

Are the two EE's maindeck a good call? They've been good for me so far, but I've also considered making the deck a bit more aggressive by switching them to 2 Qasali Pridemage. That way you have artifact/enchantment removal if you need it but you're attacking more.

Is the Life from the Loam plan decent? Is there a better strategy for combating the mirror, control strategies, and tempo-based decks like New Horizons that stifle your fetchlands and waste your duals?

BWM
03-31-2011, 04:27 AM
I'd cut 3 Inquisition and 1 Terravore for Bob...

brianw712
03-31-2011, 08:20 AM
I would consider Smallpox in the board as an Prog/Emrakul answer/general non-Vial aggro answer.

Erdvermampfa
03-31-2011, 08:35 AM
Sinkhole is pretty outdated in today's legacy enviroment. You' ll waste a whole turn for a card which's effect can be dodged by so many popular cards ( Brainstorm, Ponder, Top ) and most decks have got a manacurve which is about CC1-3, so usually u don't have to care about sinkhole..and as for the " u got 12 LD spells " argument...you don't want to use your vindicates for destroying a land, vindicate is your main answer to counterbalance and jace, you dont want to waste it that way...

sdematt
03-31-2011, 09:23 AM
I'd run Smallpox in Sinkhole's spot. Getting rid of 1-of each is pretty decent. Maybe run Mox Diamonds to help counteract? Not sure, but it looks good! The only thing that throws me off is no Top and no Bob.

I'll give Teeg a try again, but when I played him, he wasn't usually the bee's knees.

-Matt

Derm
03-31-2011, 05:01 PM
Okay, what about cutting the 4 Sinkhole for 4 Bob straight up? This keeps the mana curve consistent.

The only issue I see is that sometimes our creatures (Knight, Terravore) need a few turns to grow before they win you the game. Bob shortens the amount of leisure time you have, generally, since you're taking damage.

The only other change I've made is cutting the 24th land for an 8th 1cc targeted discard spell (a 4th Inquisition).

makochman
04-01-2011, 11:34 AM
Here's what I've been working on. This slant on the deck is by no means my idea, but I like the way it runs a lot.

This list wants 3-4 Mox Diamond. Mox has excellent synergy with this list, even more than with the "benchmark" list (4 Bob, 4 Goyf, 4 KotR).

I don't recommend Smallpox, it can kill your own Goyf, you can't really take advantage of the discard outlet, and saccing your own land is a huge drawback for a list without Life From The Loam/Crucible.

RexFTW
04-01-2011, 01:27 PM
The only issue I see is that sometimes our creatures (Knight, Terravore) need a few turns to grow before they win you the game. Bob shortens the amount of leisure time you have, generally, since you're taking damage.

I have played over 30 tournament MATCHES with bob and only a single game was decided by the damage he did me. Many many games were won by the card advantagde provided by him.

AggroSteve
04-01-2011, 02:28 PM
bob really is just awesome, and with a divining top online you can even effort having 2 bobs in play (given opponent is not able to remove them)

with divining top you will rarely lose any life from bob, and the card advantage just crushes opponents.... i would never run less than 4 bobs in the rock

APodeschwa
04-02-2011, 04:56 AM
I tried to work out a built that features the most powerfull spells in those colors and still have a decent amount of disruption.

I play inquisition over hymn to tourach because of the manabase.

natural order is also a very potent spell when u have enough discard to dodge a counter to not have a 1-2 deal.

zenith helps a lot to have more constant draws and raises the green count for NO (knights, tarmos, hierachs, pridemages, gaddock after sb, dryad arbor).

the sideboard features mainly cards against dredge and combo, 2 stoneforge + 2 jitte vs tribal and aggro, and krips against cb..

here is the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
4 Dark Confidant
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 3 Duress

Need some comments :-)

deezy
04-03-2011, 12:45 PM
I tried to work out a built that features the most powerfull spells in those colors and still have a decent amount of disruption.

I play inquisition over hymn to tourach because of the manabase.

natural order is also a very potent spell when u have enough discard to dodge a counter to not have a 1-2 deal.

zenith helps a lot to have more constant draws and raises the green count for NO (knights, tarmos, hierachs, pridemages, gaddock after sb, dryad arbor).

the sideboard features mainly cards against dredge and combo, 2 stoneforge + 2 jitte vs tribal and aggro, and krips against cb..

here is the list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
4 Dark Confidant
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 3 Duress

Need some comments :-)

Couple things....bob and progenitus dont mix....also heres the problem with running no/pro in somthing other than bant is that when you have prgenitus in your hand you cant use brainstorm to stick him on top and shuffle him away...
i guess you could hit yourself with disscard and shuffle him up but then the element of surprise is lost and they know no/pro is in the deck....We have run the no/pro package in a zoo deck before with hirearch just because its not something an opponent expects to come outta zoo....it was ok and could defineately surprise but was ultimately not using either strategy to its full potential.....powerfull hell yeah...seamless not hardly its actually alittle clunky sometimes thats what it looks like with this list also....
Black based decks will just take natural order from you and you dont have counter or brainstorm to protect or evade the disscard...

APodeschwa
04-03-2011, 01:30 PM
what would u run in those 4 slots then? more discard and the 4. zenith? a terravore or a witness as a silver bullet ? stoneforge mystic maindeck?

novatinhu
04-03-2011, 01:46 PM
Yesterday I won a championship using a list of rock a little different because my KoTR and Moxes have not arrived yet, I will go directly to the list:

//Creatures\\
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 Finks
3 MoM
2 Stoneforge
1 Witness


//Spells\\
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Seize
4 SToP
3 Sensei top
3 Vindicate
1 Jitte
1 SoFI

//Lands\\
3 Marsh flats
3 Windswept healt
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Treetop
1 Urborg
1 Canopy
1 Volrath Strong

I really like the deck plauing, but i think it will be better with KoTR ans Moxes.


Cya

AggroSteve
04-03-2011, 03:45 PM
how did treetop village, and volraths stronhold perform, and if you would switch to knights, would you keep anyone of those two?

how did your sideboard look like?, and what deck did you have to play?

congrats on the finish btw

novatinhu
04-03-2011, 05:17 PM
My meta is not TOO strong and we have smalls legacy championships, but i play against:

Round 1 - 2x0 too me: URpyromancer combo
Round 2 - 2x0 too me: UW lark
Round 3 - 2x0 too me: The gate
Round 4 - 2x1 too me: ID
Cut for Top4
Round 5 - 2x1 too me: Burn
Round 6 - 2x1 too me: UW Lark

My side looks like:
3 Krosan grip
3 Enginereed plague
3 Nihil spellbomb
2 Pithing needle
2 Warmth (meta choice)
2 Path to exile

When my moxes and KoTR arrive im thinking in something like this:

+4 Knight of the Reliquary
+3 Mox diamond
+1 Jitte
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek

- 3 Finks
- 2 Stoneforge
- 3 MoM
- 1 SoFI
- 1 Witness


And im not thinking in remove both (Treetop and Volrath) they save me a lot of times!!!

Cya

AggroSteve
04-03-2011, 05:46 PM
in the gate matchup, what card was the most convenient, i am right now playing a knight + mox list, an happen to struggle a bit in this matchup, it often comes down to who has more discard initially, and most of the time it is the gate-player (plus they have more removal), i could see kitchen finks to be strong here and also stronghold

i will be trying a moxless build next, and see if it fits my playstyle better (i just love turn 1 targeted discard, its an awesome play)

for reference my current list + planned changings

2x overgrown tomb (only got the shockduals, sucks i know, but havent got the money right now for the real ones)
3x godless shrine
1x temple garden
1x bojuka bog
1x maze of ith
3x wasteland
4x marsh flats
4x verdant catacombs
1x forest
1x swamp
1x plains
1x karakas

4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
4x knight of the reliquary
2x quasali pridemage

4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
2x pernicious deed
3x senseis divining top
3x mox diamond
4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach

planned changings to maindeck:

-3x mox diamond
-1x bojuka bog

+1x elspeht, knights errand
+2x inquisition of kozilek
+1x either nantuko monastery/treetop village/volrath's stronghold, horizon canopy,... not sure yet, which one would you guys suggest?

if i would take horizon canopy i would probably cut the temple garden as well for a second canopy

also darkblast would be a reasonable inclusion, being a recurrable ping for small dudes is good, plus it breaks goyfstalls as well, plus being able to dredge away stuff i do not want to see would help as well ( will test it in the pridemages slot)


sideboard is metadependant, but should probalbly look like this

4x extirpate
3-4x diabolic edict (prefer it over tariff due to instant speed and being able to kill a reanimated iona on white, and extra removal against aggro)
3x gadock teeg / 4x leyline of sanctity (metadependant)
2x pernicious deed
2x flex slot (currently krosan grip, also metadependant)

what do you guys think of the changings? not sure about elspeth, did not test her yet but jitte seems a bit off with 2 deeds main, and because of being quite threat-light even with added quasali but the lifegain of jitte would sometimes be a nice thing

bganns
04-03-2011, 06:14 PM
In The Gate Matchup both games i win with MoM + Finks. And trying to be more fast in discards.

Cya

PS: Here is novatinhu talking in my brother house!!!

sdematt
04-03-2011, 08:57 PM
You can win the Gate matchup, but it can be difficult since they have infinite removal and you have 8 beaters. The Taxes builds of Junk with more creatures will be more successful. It's very similar to the Deadguy matchup: who can stick Confidant and keep it, and who can assault the other with infinite discard. Most of the time, if they don't beat you within the first 8, you can run the attrition game better than they can (you have Top, Deed, Swords, etc.)

I was playing a bunch of Zoo and Merfolk last night, since I had nothing to do (literally nothing better to do). I was finding either my Merfolk opponent always had the nuts or not, but he was beating my face in pretty hard. Vindicate, I found, was almost too slow here, Moxen or not. I usually had some discard, but it didn't seem like it was enough. I got beat preboard about 6/10 times.

My opponent then switch to Zoo, where I got butt-hurt even more. I couldn't keep much online, and the discard didn't always get there. I found it to be a difficult matchup, and worse than I expected.

Thus far, even though I was previously impressed with Elspeth, as a 1-of and at 4 mana, it never fully got online at any point against any of the aggro-based decks (obviously). Right now, I'm quite curious if I should be running more removal that costs 1-2 (like in Deadguy, and I've had much success with that build) or is it just my in-bred aggro infested meta?

My list so far is my standard list of 24 lands and the following:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight
4 Bob

4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Elspeth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
1 IoK
2 Path
3 Top
4 Swords

I'm wondering if I should run something faster at the GP? I guess we won't know until soon before, but if it were tomorrow, should I move towards something like:

4 Swords
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Path
2 Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
2 IoK
3 Top
+2 Slots (creatures? spells?)

Just in terms of speed? True, I won't hit lands with Vindicate, and I won't have planeswalker removal, but I'm just wondering if I'm having trouble in my area, or trouble with the deck in general? Can anyone sleeve up my list and tell me what they think?

-Matt

deezy
04-03-2011, 10:41 PM
what would u run in those 4 slots then? more discard and the 4. zenith? a terravore or a witness as a silver bullet ? stoneforge mystic maindeck?

I think its a judgement call but i like the idea of the 4th zentih and silver bullets....stone forge is good but I dont think the creatures need equipment to get there....terravore is a beast too...

AggroSteve
04-04-2011, 03:37 AM
as silver bullets for a yenith buil i would suggest: terravore, kitchen finks, witness, if not allready running maybe quasali as well

but i have to say i think 4 zenith is a bit much, i think a 3-off is the right number but i have to admit i did not test with 4 yet, and i will not play zenith in the rock again either i think discard specially hymn is stronger

aside of that i was wondering why run jitte in the first place in such a threat-light deck like the rock/junk/dark horizons (whatever), i began to think it that in the moxless build of last starcity-games, jitte was mainly in there to blow up opposing jitte to assure our beaters are the bigger ones.... this is just my theory though

Derm
04-04-2011, 06:25 AM
I'd like to start a very specific discussion about this deck: discard strategy.

Discard is what makes Rock strategies viable against a field that includes Combo and counterspells. We all know it's important. But let's talk about how to approach it.

Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Inquisition of Kozilek

These are the three spells we'll be working with. Obviously Duress and Gerrard's Verdict show up from time to time, but I think we can cover them by talking about the others.

Topics for Discussion
1. Is a hand with no turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition keepable in Legacy? And let's go through the different scenarios. What about when it's game 1 Round 1 and you don't know what your opponent is playing? What about once you know they're playing a Combo deck or a semi-control deck like CounterTop? In what matchups is it okay not to have that turn 1 play?

2. What are the cards we want to target in each matchup? Against ANT and other combo decks, do you take tutors? Dark Rituals? Cantrips? Against CounterTop, do you take Counterbalance or Force of Will? Against Zoo, do you take Wild Nacatl or Tarmogoyf?

3. Is a hand with a turn 2 Hymn but no targeted discard a good hand? I know this can be situational...what are the situations? In what matchups would our over-reliance on turn 2 disruption kill us?

4. Turn 2: Hymn first, then plan to play your Bob on turn 3? That seems standard. In what matchups might it change?

5. When is it correct to sandbag discard spells? For instance, a late game Thoughtseize or Inquisition to clear the way for your Knight or Goyf or Terravore can be great, taking away a counterspell, a piece of removal, a Sower of Temptation, etc. How much should we keep our foot on the gas with disruption? In what matchups do you want to just blow your load and cast 4 discard spells in the first 3 turns?

bfeingersh
04-04-2011, 10:50 AM
Dropping some of my hand disruption for some more removal. I have been playing 4 Seize/4 Hymn/2 Inquisition/1 Verdict and sometimes I feel like I'm flooded with discard spells and nothing to hit.

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Qasali Pridemage

Instant:
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantment:
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Artifact:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives

Land:
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats

-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Inquisition
-1 Verdict
+1 Karakas
+1 Elspeth
+1 EE

While I think having a turn 1/2 discard spell is pretty much essential, I want some more tools that can be used both offensively and defensively, and don't feel dead as the game goes on. Elspeth seems awesome on paper as she can dump out infinite blockers or let me finish the game in a couple turns.

Also, added Karakas for Dryad Arbor as I have cut my GSZs and Emrakul decks have been showing up in my area. Still working on a plan for Progenitus, I think I'm going to board Retribution of the Meek at the GPT in Boston next weekend.

sdematt
04-04-2011, 11:06 AM
Isn't Retribution some sweet tech I discovered? :) It also works double duty on Tombstalker, Terravore, Emrakul, etc.

For discard, I think having 8-10 main is necessary, with 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn being standard unless you're playing infinite creature removal, then I'd say you could go down 1-2 Thoughtseizes for 1-2 Duress/IoK, but that'd be more Deadguy.

I think if you can Hymn on T2 and go with BoB on turn 3, that's the better play. The only time I can see that not being wise is against a deck that's already got down a key third turn play already, and you need to catch up.

I don't think you have to have Thoughtseize to keep a hand, but I think you need a turn 1 play or a very strong turns 2-3. Example: Would you keep: Top, Hymn, Fetch, Scrub, Forest, Vindicate, something else? Probably. Top is a good T1 play, in my opinion. Even if you have a turn 2 play and can't top that turn, topping turn 3 for an excellent 2 drop on turn 3 is good as well.

-Matt

Arsenal
04-04-2011, 11:26 AM
I've found myself running a 1/1 split of Inquisition (Thoughtseize #5) and Path to Exile (Swords to Plowshares #5). I like it, but really, those 2-3 flex spots are personal preference and meta calls.

sdematt
04-04-2011, 09:34 PM
Agreed. I've got 4 flex slots (where my 1 EE, 2 Path, 1 IoK are sitting at the moment).

-Matt

Sintheros
04-05-2011, 04:20 AM
Isn't it 3 flex slots? Or are you playing 24 land?

sdematt
04-05-2011, 10:09 AM
I'm playing 24 lands to make up for the Mox.

-Matt

publius_aelius
04-05-2011, 03:52 PM
I don't know guys but it seems to me that your line of thinking is too narrow. As you can see, rock decks didn't show up in top16 of the last few scg opens. combo decks did. in spite of hymns and thoughseizes. Maybe we need to reconsider our strategy and try more creatures with cabal therapy?

Arsenal
04-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Discard doesn't do much without a fast clock to back it up. Combo is just too resilient and redundant nowadays for discard to matter with no pressure on them. If this trend continues, I anticipate people dropping their Elspeth/Jitte, Pernicious Deed, and a Inquistion, freeing up 4 slots for more creatures.

keys
04-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Discard doesn't do much without a fast clock to back it up. Combo is just too resilient and redundant nowadays for discard to matter with no pressure on them. If this trend continues, I anticipate people dropping their Elspeth/Jitte, Pernicious Deed, and a Inquistion, freeing up 4 slots for more creatures.

For Sculler. I don't understand why this guy isn't played in more Rock decks.

Derm
04-05-2011, 07:48 PM
For Sculler. I don't understand why this guy isn't played in more Rock decks.

I think Sculler's good, but he's mostly good in decks like Deadguy. Without equipment, he's just another Thoughtseize because a 2/2 isn't a relevant clock vs. combo.

So, about Combo...

I agree that a fundamental reconsideration of Rock strategy vs. Combo might be in order. Perhaps it's having more creatures or whatever. There are lots of directions to go. BUT the truth is that Rock decks are still going to run some discard. So let's talk about what to target with discard.

ANT - Obviously you take out Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Tendrils of Agony if you see them. Barring that, what's the best target? Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual? Brainstorm and other card selection/cantrips?

High Tide - I assume you take out High Tide, Reset, or Turnabout

Aluren - Aluren, accelerators, Imperial Recruiter?

Imperial Painter - Grindstone, Painter's Servant, Imperial Recruiter

Show and Tell - Show and Tell

Let's talk specifics like this. And post your personal strategy for other combo decks I didn't list.

RexFTW
04-05-2011, 10:12 PM
How to beat combo:
Discard a key card with thoughtseize/duress then extirpate it. This does not always guarantee a win but it can slow them down a LOT. Also use extirpate to shuffle their deck if they brainstorm in response to discard.

Waste landing your own stuff can accelerate your clock with knights.

extirpate the tutors or win conditions:
Hugh tide, timespiral or cunning wish
Tendrils of agony, doomsday, shelldock isle, infernal tutor, emrakul, ill gotten gains

The next best option is leyline of sanctity, as this will probably be totally unexpected the first time you pull it out.

the show/tell etc lists you bring in your edicts or tarrifs or retribution of the meeks.

The painter deck can only win with very fast blood moon or grind. The discard + vindicates + swords make this a nightmare for them, esp if you have a mox diamond.

Skub
04-06-2011, 04:05 PM
I am thinking of replacing Engineered Plague with Kitchen Finks in the sideboard. I think overall Finks is in general more usefull than Plague. Especially in aggro matchups. What are your experiences with using Finks against Goblins instead of Plague?

Arsenal
04-06-2011, 05:12 PM
Dueling Grounds is a great way to deal with aggro swarm decks. I personally run the E Tutor package in my SB (4 Leylines, 3 E Tutor, then 8 singletons as Tutor targets), so "finding" Dueling Grounds vs. aggro isn't terribly difficult to do, nor is finding Wheel of Sun and Moon/Tormod's Crypt vs. Dredge, etc.

AggroSteve
04-06-2011, 05:18 PM
kitchen finks worked pretty fine for me back when i used them, but right now i have no room in my 75 for them (not even using plagues right now).... but finks will allmost every time be 2 for 1 in your favor, and netting 4 life in the process is just a plus, actually i would say finks slow their clock by allmost 2 turns

i am testing darkblast right now in the main as a 2 of, and it has proven quite usefull, specially with divining top its extremely fun^^
specially in the goblins matchup darkblast shines, actually being an addictional removalspell ( 4 swords, 2 darkblast) , but in other matchups its rather subpar, but breaking goyfstalls out of nowhere is a fun thing as well^^

sdematt
04-06-2011, 09:31 PM
The main problem is resilient combo. TES can be great to disrupt since they're fragile combo, whereas High Tide is slow and lumbering, and eventually gets there.

Aluren is all about manabase disruption and knowing when to Swords. It's not easy, but it's a better matchup than, say, Belcher.

The whole point? Sometimes discard doesn't get there, I'll be honest. Disruption with a clock is very key. My real question comes down to this: how many people are playing Rock at the moment, with combo being rampant? If it is being played in the same numbers as before, we can assume it's not doing well. If people aren't playing it because they ASSUME it won't do well, that's a problem as well.

Thoughts, guys? I've had more success with Deadguy as of late because I have more creatures, more discard, but less bomb stuff. But, I also die hopelessly to Zoo and Goblins.

-Matt

sdematt
04-06-2011, 09:31 PM
The main problem is resilient combo. TES can be great to disrupt since they're fragile combo, whereas High Tide is slow and lumbering, and eventually gets there.

Aluren is all about manabase disruption and knowing when to Swords. It's not easy, but it's a better matchup than, say, Belcher.

The whole point? Sometimes discard doesn't get there, I'll be honest. Disruption with a clock is very key. My real question comes down to this: how many people are playing Rock at the moment, with combo being rampant? If it is being played in the same numbers as before, we can assume it's not doing well. If people aren't playing it because they ASSUME it won't do well, that's a problem as well.

Thoughts, guys? I've had more success with Deadguy as of late because I have more creatures, more discard, but less bomb stuff. But, I also die hopelessly to Zoo and Goblins.

-Matt

Dzra
04-07-2011, 02:39 PM
I've been sort of laying low for a while. I ended up placing 32nd at the Dallas Open (unfortunately I got a game loss in the final round that resulted in a match loss because I forgot to shuffle exiled Goyfs back into my library) >_> Regardless, I feel like my Goblin and Merfolk MUs are below 50%, my Burn MU is just horrible, and combo is an uphill battle. My best MUs are against other midranged and control strategies and I can out-tempo them, out-removal them, and/or eventually drop a Deed and greatly change the board position.

I've been trying to think of how to improve my bad MUs (as they are a large part of the field) and I think I'm going to try restructuring the deck as a Vial deck much like the Junk and Taxes build. This gives access to more creatures which means a faster clock VS combo/Burn and well as easy access to SoFI/Jitte for the tribal MUs. The major downside is the loss of Deed which will most effect my Countertop and Enchantress MUs, but Countertop should be offset by the Vials.

Anyways, here's what I'm going to start testing with, I'd love some input and I'll hopefully be able to get back with some results after the Grand Prix Legacy side event this Sunday.

Land 22
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Creatures 20
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells 18
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2-4 Path to Exile
0-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

The SB is still up in the air. I also cut back on KotR utility lands, but I can be persuaded to MD/SB Maze or Bog again. Especially Bog with all the Dredge popping up.

Bignasty197
04-07-2011, 10:04 PM
@Dzra
4 Stoneforge seems like overkill. I would look at 3 Mystics and moving the Sword of Light and Shadow to the main deck.

bfeingersh
04-08-2011, 12:08 AM
Bringing this list/board to a GPT this weekend, comments?

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt

Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond

Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Enchantments:
2 Pernicious Deed

Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands:
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Empty spot.

Not sure what to do with the last slot. I think it's going to be either a Nihil Spellbomb, Gaddock Teeg, Dueling Grounds, Pernicious Deed, or Duress, depending on how I'm feeling on Saturday. Leaning towards a Duress, but I think I might be light on grave hate. Bojuka Bog is tutorable but might be too slow. Opinions?

AggroSteve
04-08-2011, 03:38 AM
bojuka bog has no real effect on dredge or reanimator, its main purpose is for combat tricks against other knight-based decks, at least IMO, sure from times to time you even get to use it in the reanimator or dredge matchups but that will be very rare

i would probably take the deed, but that would be my personal preference and by no means a choice that would be adapted to your metagame i presume,... i am even playing the full set of deeds in my 75

Bignasty197
04-08-2011, 09:25 AM
@bfeingersh

You need Tarmogoyf.

bfeingersh
04-08-2011, 09:34 AM
I don't have them. I've managed to un-budgetize pretty much all other parts of my list, but Goyfs still elude me.

RexFTW
04-08-2011, 11:13 AM
Goyf is a defining card in the format, and this is the deck that he is best in. I highly recommend getting some.

Dzra
04-08-2011, 06:21 PM
If you want to play Legacy, you should probably just man up and buy a set of Goyfs. It's not like they're going to drop in price and they are a staple in so many archtypes.

Yeah, 3 Mystics should probably cover me, I think I might add the Maze back in instead of the Sword of Light and Shadow for now at least.

Do you think it's necessary to keep Pernicious Deed in the SB? I have to drop them from the MD since I'm running more creatures, vials, and equipment... but I feel like I might be vulnerable to Enchantress and Painter Servant without them in the board. At the same time, it's still fairly awkward to Deed with my end of the board so full.

Bignasty197
04-08-2011, 06:40 PM
If your end of the board is full, you should be winning anyway. You do have 4 Vindicate main deck to pick off their annoying stuff that gets past your Thoughtseizes and Scullers. I'm thinking 2 Deeds SB should do it. It's too good of a card not to run somewhere in your 75.

sdematt
04-08-2011, 09:11 PM
Agreed. I think I may put Deeds in the board, but they're definitely staying in the 75.

I'm going to try a new list for a GPT tomorrow (possibly), but I'm wondering what you guys thought?

I have 2 slots for extra creatures. I'm running 4 Goyf, 4 Dark Condfidant, 4 Knight, 3 Phyrexian Revoker and 2 slots remain. Should I run Nighthawks, Terravores, or what? I was thinking possibly Finks, but what do you think? I could also run 2 pieces of equipment. The list will be without Elspeth or any baggage, since I need 5 slots.

Thoughts?

-Matt

Bignasty197
04-08-2011, 09:47 PM
I always liked Pridemage as a 2-of because it is versatile and Rock likes versatility. maybe another Engineered Explosives?

Magicsk8ngenius
04-09-2011, 12:44 AM
I haven't been keeping up on this thread for a few weeks because I have been playing New Horizons. I read the past couple pages and I see that others are coming up with the same issues. It's difficult to beat combo, especially more resiliant decks like High Tide. I decided I wanted to take more of an agressive approach and I see most of you have as well. This is a list that I put together today and did a several games worth of testing before work.

4 dark confidant
4 goyf
4 tidehollow sculler
3 gaddock teeg
3 quasali pridemage
3 mother of runes
3 Knight of the Reliquary


4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa Jitte


4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
2 horizon canopy
1 Savanah
1 swamp
1 plains

Haven't come up with a sideboard yet but I have a general idea that it will include some number of ethersworn cannonist, phyrexian revoker, tariff and probably engineered plague. Of course my main aim is to combat combo decks. Jitte and just playing decent dudes help me win the aggro matchups.

A few things that I haven't been able to straighten out with the list. The main thing is Aether Vial. I'm not sure if it's better to run 4 aether vial, or 3 mox diamonds and a 23rd land. I'm trying the vials first because that's what most people tell me, but I'm really not sold on the card, especially in this list. Turn 1 dropping a mox diamond and some sort of hate bear or dark confidant followed by a turn 2 thoughtseize and another bear and so forth seems to be the speed that this deck really needs to be competitive. Vial is great, but seems too slow. Anyone that has some relative input or testing here please chime in as I've never actually played an aether vial deck.

You will also notice that I am not playing the fabulous stoneforge mystic. The reason for that is simply because she is unimpressive and pretty slow. Playing 2 Jittes where I'd normally play SoLS and SoFI does some of the same things. Also mother of runes helps with giving protection. Mother of runes is also a card which has yet to impress me, but others have told me how good she is and I'm willing to try it out for a bit.


@matt: I'm a big fan of running 2x pridemage, but I also really like the idea of 1 random terravore that can sometimes just come down and steal games. This might just be because I'm getting off of my New Horizon's high, but I'm not sure.

Arsenal
04-09-2011, 01:04 AM
If only we could play Tombstalker. A 5/5 flyer for 2-3 mana early is pretty good against Combo provided we've Thoughtseize/IoK/Hymn them early.

sdematt
04-09-2011, 03:09 AM
Dead lord, I'd love to play Tombstalker, but it's so anti-Goyf/Knight. If it delved off the top of your library, it'd be so amazing, but too amazing to be legal. I'd play that all day long.

Back to reality. Perhaps a 1-of Baneslayer? I was thinking Finks and Revokers, but I'm trying Stoneforge out at the moment. So far, not bad.

I'm going to a GPT tomorrow. Wish me luck!

-Matt

AggroSteve
04-09-2011, 03:31 AM
actually was thinking allmost the same thing and was now wondering if anyone ever tried to play tombstalker alongside of goyf and knight as maybe a 2-of? actually i believe it could work out, specially in the mox build he could come down fairly quick

sure in theory he is very unsynergistic with knight and goyf, but how many times are there where we have more than one beater online? (to me it seems quite rare).... besides once he hit play, we have absolutely no problem refilling our grave for knight/goyf, and if someone comes with the "cannot play him because of confidant"-thing.... just try it!! it works even without divining top given you use tombstalker only as a 2-of.... im no good with percentages but in my older list i run both, and in about 50 games i only blindflipped tombstalker twice or maybe 3 times with confidant..... and with divining tip we have no issue at all

so again the question... did anyone test tombstalker along knight and goyf?, if yes what were your results?, i am very curious, specially because i love tombstalker and would love it if testings would prove he can work alongside our other beaters (only problem that arises is the rising vulnerability to gravehate)

Bignasty197
04-09-2011, 05:12 PM
The only downside of Tombstalker is flipping it with Bob. It has happened to me more times than I can remember back when I played Eva Green. Even if you run Top, the possibility of hitting yourself for 8 is not something I would want to do.

On Baneslayer,
I used to run 2 Baneslayer in the slots that became Deed #2 and Elspeth. Getting to 5 mana was difficult sometimes when you are Wastelanding people. Usually when it hits play, it gets removed and I have successfully wasted a turn. The upside of Baneslayer is when she sticks, you generally win. If you feel like you need to run another big beater, I would definitely go with Baneslayer or none at all.

ZeinVoncy
04-09-2011, 06:52 PM
@ Baneslayer Angel

I have often thought using this beast, but as previously mentioned, she is generally removed or taken care of. Setting you back a turn to use a mana intensive resource, she just is what the deck needs.

If she stuck more often, I'd say use at least 1 copy. It's why she see's more use in Zoo, with the protection Mother of Runes provides.

Arsenal
04-10-2011, 01:10 AM
I know he's been outdated, but perhaps Doran? 5/5 for 3 mana is decent, and it makes your Goyfs "bigger" when racing combo.

Bignasty197
04-10-2011, 01:26 AM
If you feel like you need more creatures, Doran could be good. I would rather run Kitchen Finks instead, though. It somewhat off sets the lifeloss from Thoughtseize and Bob while being a body as well.

Arsenal
04-10-2011, 01:53 AM
I think we were discussing how to apply more pressure on combo, assuming we've done the whole Thoughtseize/Hymn thing early. Finks doesn't really represent a clock, nor Sculler, nor does Pridemage (arguably though). A 5/5 cast on turn 2 (in Mox builds) or turn 3 (in non-Mox builds) seems like the best way to apply real pressure, while still being cheap enough to be cast early on.

sdematt
04-10-2011, 01:56 AM
Ran in a GPT, placing 11th out of about 35. My losses were to Goblins and Zoo, with wins against Merfolk twice and Team America once. I just missed the Top 8. My tale of loss and of heartbreak will be posted tomorrow :'(

-Matt

novatinhu
04-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Yesterday I played and lost in the top 4 for Merfolk and zoo, play against Gobbos in round 1 and make 2x0 for me.

My side was:
2 Perimeter Captain (agro meta) but i dont like it too much
3 enginereed plague
2 Perish
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Path to Exile


Anyone have any advice about a new side, my worst games are: Affinity, Gobbos, Folks and Zoo

Arsenal
04-10-2011, 10:43 AM
Dueling Grounds. It's tricky to stick sometimes, but if it does, it can swing games heavily in your favor. Running more spot removal maindeck may also help things out. I play two Deed maindeck, so that also helps aggro matchups although I can definitely see a case for running EE in it's place; activating for 0 or 1 a turn earlier than Deed normally could makes a big difference against those decks.

Kataki and/or Serenity may be a solid idea for Affinity-tech. Again, EE for 0 may shine here if they're on the Memnite/Ornithopter/Tezzeret plan.