[Deck] The Rock

[KobeBryan]

Matt i really think you need to get off GSZ. I do not believe it fits in GWB Junk.

So the general consensus is to not use GSZ and not use Mox Diamond for more creatures?

[damionblackgear]

I'm using both to great success. My list has more than just Goyf and knight in the main though.

[Seems Good]

So the general consensus is to not use GSZ and not use Mox Diamond for more creatures?

I'm currently on 3 Mox and 0 GSZ. Opening 7 with Mox is devastating for your opponent. Opening with Hymn, Bob or SFM on turn 1 often spells a loss for them. It's true that it's somewhat dead if you draw into it but I will happily take those bad draws along with the situation I just stated.

[Borealis]

@Novatinhu, looking at your list, I'd run Hymn to Tourach over Thoughseize. You still have Diamonds, and Turn 1 Hymn is amazing and one of our best openers. Also Hymn usually stands alone a little better, as it always hurts regardless of what's in their hand. Against combo etc. you can side in some 1-drop discard spells if needed.

@Sdematt, I kinda agree with Seems Good on GSZ. It's not abusable in Junk like it is in other lists, and Stoneforge is a much better tempo and CA tool to use anyway. Save your mana and replace those Zeniths with real creatures!

Also, Karakas is definitely a meta call, and while nice to have as a Knight target, isn't always necessary. If you're running into problem Legends all the time, definitely include it, but if your local meta isn't saturated with Emrakul and Progen et al, you can probably cut it for a better land. At a large tournament I think I would definitely still run it though, since you never know. ( I still have to buy one at some point, since I was borrowing it from a player who switched back to Bant recently.)

On GSZ and Mox Diamond, I can see running them both, or cutting either, it's really a matter of preference I think. I run the Moxes (3) because I like getting a jump start on turn 1, and I also like not getting mana screwed. Since we are a little fragile to opposing Wastelands, Moxes help keep our clock moving in certain corner cases. Most important though is that they help us keep up with the "unfair decks". Zenith, I just don't think has enough value, but in a creature-heavy meta I can see the reasons to run it. I'd probably run 2 at most without Hierarchs in the deck.

Life from the Loam: Still not sure about this one. I've got a singleton in the deck, and it's hard to tell if it's worth drawing a semi-useless card on occasion in exchange for the occasional Wasteland Blowout or Mana-Screw Save. It does have good synergy with Moxes, so for now I'm keeping it in.

[AggroSteve]

i am trying the mox build with hexmages right now, the list itself is extremely tight, but right now i am wondering why i moved away from mox diamond in the first place, they are extremely strong

i am using loam as well in that list, but somehow it feels as they are not really needed, whenever i get a loam hand, it feels strange and loam most of the time seems useless, not sure if i should go down to 1 from 2, but on the other hand without loam, mox seems so much of a card-disadvantage, and loam helps if i want to go the dephts route

dark dephts seem strange as well in the deck, as i often felt it is not needed, when i allready started to kick faces with knights, but the ability to steal games with this is extremely nice, but the most beautiful thing of the dark dephts PLAN B is that i have 3 more creatures in the deck, which are not even bad on their own
i had a few games where i manascrewed the opponent and beat face only with confidant and hexmage, as i did not draw a bigger beater, but it was often enough


i have to test a lot more, and see if hexmage + dephts combo really has the value for the deck i have been searching for or is another round of searching and testing gone to "waste" as i might not fit my playstyle

i was wondering what other turn 1 plays were as devastating as 1st turn Bob, Mystic, Hymn, anyone an idea?

[Seems Good]

i was wondering what other turn 1 plays were as devastating as 1st turn Bob, Mystic, Hymn, anyone an idea?

Thoughtseize + top, pushing a top or thoughtseize through an opponent with Daze (thresh, fish, etc), Goyf, Turn 2 Knight.

[Qweerios]

What are people's opinions on playing 4 Dark Confidant and 2 Sylvan Library? I play a more controlling version of The Rock hellbent on CA and I have found those two cards to have an interesting interaction.

Also, what about Gerrard's Verdict as a sideboard card? I use it against Zoo, Sligh, Combo, Control, Burn and it replaces Thoughtseize or StP wonderfully.

Lastly, what is the best removal to side in? I really don't think PtE is good removal in a deck packing Wastelands, Vindicates, and that thrives on board domination. Having all of my removal be white and most of it vulnerable to MM or Chalice@1 isn't ideal either. PtE is completely worthless on mana dorks and I frankly don't know why it is still played in The Rock.

So, Smother or Go for the Throat?

[muscleb]

@Qweerios
I think Sylvan is really good if you run with Mystic+Batterskull. The interaction should be selfexplanatory

[berry]

Hola, Sourcers.

New to the Rock archetype but an avid legacy-player I've played against it long enough.

I started with the Wish-version played to top8 in SCGOpen but realized Wish was just slowing me down. I still believe HexDepths to be the best way to go (GSZ is too slow) as it threatens a combo all the time (this is such huge psychological advantage) and gives me 3x Hexmage who is a rather strong dude in this meta.

The list I've landed on is this:

CREATURES (15)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (11)
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (5)
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (25)
2 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

What I'm asking of you is to simply help me by commenting the maindeck, and helping with the manabase. I do want to fit in Volrath's Stronghold (he's so strong even with the single loam) at the side of Karakas (prog is everywhere, at least here) but am not sure, I'm not good at manabases.

I'd love some SBing tips, too. I loooove the Gerrard's Verdict idea!

[berry]

Hola, Sourcers.

New to the Rock archetype but an avid legacy-player I've played against it long enough.

I started with the Wish-version played to top8 in SCGOpen but realized Wish was just slowing me down. I still believe HexDepths to be the best way to go (GSZ is too slow) as it threatens a combo all the time (this is such huge psychological advantage) and gives me 3x Hexmage who is a rather strong dude in this meta.

The list I've landed on is this:

CREATURES (15)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (11)
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (5)
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (25)
2 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

What I'm asking of you is to simply help me by commenting the maindeck, and helping with the manabase. I do want to fit in Volrath's Stronghold (he's so strong even with the single loam) at the side of Karakas (prog is everywhere, at least here) but am not sure, I'm not good at manabases.

I'd love some SBing tips, too. I loooove the Gerrard's Verdict idea!

[Anen]

Karakas (prog is everywhere, at least here)

Karakas deals with Emrakul, not Progenitus because everything includes lands ;)

[berry]

That's incredibly true... I shouldn't be brewing at work, minds all boggled up.

- Karakas
+ Volrath's Stronghold!

[damionblackgear]

4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares


With the white spells limited to 10 why not slim it a little more and change the 2x Vindicates to Pulses? They are functionally similar except one can hit more than one non-land permanents while the other can hit lands.

It may also be a good idea to find a way to deal with Progen. Bunches of options are floating out there.

Matt, I've cut the frog in place of Llawan, Cephlid Empress. I wouldn't suggest it unless you're running the GSZ version and Birds/Hierarch alongside the diamonds. I Felt it would preform better as I can Karakas it back for repeated performances without hindering card draw. Also, It's better against other decks than the frog (with the exception of affinity).

[berry]

@Damion: I prefer Vindicate just because it can hit lands, I like the LD-plan (why I still run a single Loam) - Pulses gives me the option to kill severals but I almost never feel like I have that need... What do you think about the manabase overall?

About Prog: Edicts in board should do the work? Or what are people here suggesting?

[mdc1010]

So I've kept up with my play testing and I am really questioning if Thougtseize is a good call main deck right now. The format has slowed down considerably with more control. I'm also re-evaluating if Mox Diamond is actually needed. Mox is really great and shines considerable in a faster format, but over the last 6 months the format has slowed down so much.

These are just some thoughts for everyone's consideration. I've been working through both ideas this week and into Friday I should have a good idea. With U/W Blade or Jace decks increasing each week, and now that Dredge is coming back it feels like both Thoughtseize and Mox could be replaced.

Has anyone considered dodging Mental Mistep completely by replacing Swords with a different suite of removal like Pulse, Smother, Edict, and Go for the Throat?

If you cut Thoughtsieze and Swords the deck has a virtually immunity to Mental Mistep oustide of Top unless you replace with Library (Mistep is the most played card in Legacy ATM).

[AggroSteve]

if we would cut all 1cmc spells, then chalice would be not that bad of an inclusion, but i would only play them if i would use a full set of diamonds
though i would not question the inclusion of thoughtseize maindeck, only maybe mox diamond, specially since the deck runs quite good even without them, plus mox is often sided out in game 2 and 3 probably due to the fact that in many matchups there is no necessity for them in that specific matchup

@berry, i am running almost the same build right now, and i am quite sattisfied with it, with the only difference of + 1 vindicate + 1 loam, - 1 land (making it 61 cards, but that is just fine with me)

vampire hexmage is a bomb IMO, it disturbs exactly the jacedecks, we obviously had a few problems with, and is actually quite a decent beater with its first strike, making it quite a good inclusion for our deck right now even without dark dephts in play

the only changes i am thinking right now is maybe cutting a loam, and adding maybe the 4th mox, or the 3rd divining top

@ berry, what would your sideboard look like, i do not have any for this specific build right now

+ i really like the idea of 4 gerrards verdict in the sideboard as well, first i wanted to run a set of inquisitions of kozilek but verdict seem more suited for more different matchups while doing the same job as inquisition, just better, but a bit slower

my question to you guys would be, which one of the changes i have written in this post would be better, is cutting 1 loam a good idea anyways, as i would only keep a singleton, and what would you prefer, the 4th mox, or the 3rd divining top?

[Borealis]

I can see the reasons for wanting to drop Thoughtseize, since it can sometimes be a lackluster and painful play, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Part of our resilience comes from ripping apart our opponent's hand and mana, so losing our Turn 1 play could be problematic. Even against Dredge Thoughtseize on the play can slow them down enough to find more answers. It's also free information at a big event about your opponent's deck choice, which has a lot of value. Still, if you can find an equally aggressive replacement, it's definitely an option, it will just take some work to change the deck's strengths around.

If you DO cut it, then I would say you need to hang onto Mox Diamonds, since all your 2-drops become slower without it and you have no real turn 1 play outside of "Swords your mana dork". I also would not cut Swords to Plowshares at all. Replacing 1-drops with 2-drops slows the deck down significantly, with or without Mox Diamond. Is Misstep really that much of a problem? I'm not sure it's worth losing tempo against the other 70% of the field just to dodge a few blue counterspells.

On Progenitus and other fatties: I think the most versatile solution by far is Phyrexian Metamorph. Not only does he Legend rule Progen, Emrakul, Iona, Jitte, and the like, but he can also copy any other fatty in play. Down a goyf? Copy theirs. Only have a Knight in play? Copy it and double the fun. Trying to ride victory off of one Bob? Drop a second and dig for better threats. Mystic vs. Mystic? Copy theirs and get the Same CA as them, or just copy their Batterskull. Point being, he is almost always relevant, even beyond his intended matchups. The only time he's unplayable is when the field is blank, which means at least you're not losing. Though I haven't had much chance to actually use him yet, I'm running 3 in the board and I think it's the right call right now.

[Einherjer]

"Isn't the best way to get around Mental Misstep in Legacy to just not play any one mana cards?"
Tom LaPille



NO obviously NOT.

[Borealis]

Not sure what your point is here, Philipp. Obviously avoiding Mental Misstep is as simple as avoiding 1-drops in your deck, similar to how avoiding Spell Snare would require you to not play any cards with a CMC of 2. My point was that it's not worth hacking up the deck's curve to avoid one card. Are you supporting that or saying something else?

[berry]

To be fair, the general consensus (at least here in sweden) seems to be that the best way to avoid MM is to load up on shitloads of 1-drops. Me, myself, just ignore it.

AggroSteve: Glad to see I'm not the only one that wanted to try this build, a SB would look something like:

1 tower of the magistrate
1 bojuka bog
1 surgical extraction
2 tormod's crypt
2 phyrexian metamorph
2 ethersworn canonist
1 qasali pridemage/krosan grip
3 perish/path to exile
2 pernicious deed/path to exile/kataki wars wage

Not saying I'm satisfied with this, but it's what I've got for now...

[Einherjer]

Not sure what your point is here, Philipp. Obviously avoiding Mental Misstep is as simple as avoiding 1-drops in your deck, similar to how avoiding Spell Snare would require you to not play any cards with a CMC of 2. My point was that it's not worth hacking up the deck's curve to avoid one card. Are you supporting that or saying something else?

Sorry if I was expressing myself in an unclear way. Yes I want to say the same. And if you dont know TomLaPille - google him lol

Greetings

[Borealis]

Thanks for clarifying Philipp, and sorry if I jumped on that a little aggressively. I do read LaPille's stuff from time to time, but wasn't sure which way you meant to interpret his quote.

It is true that overloading on 1-drops also makes Misstep less of a problem, but that's only really an option for decks like Zoo. In fact, it could be argued that Misstep helped vault Zoo back up to Tier 1(ish) status again, since everyone else had to slow down a bit and Zoo was able to revert to its truest form again: FAST AGGRO. I had a blast running Zoo for awhile, especially at the GP, but I found it frustrating to be downright cold to some matchups, and even with Misstep not being as much of a problem, Control in general was still a bitch to fight through. Anyway, in Junk, if they counter my Thoughtseize or Top for 2 life, it's not that big of a deal. A Misstepped Swords can sometimes be backbreaking, but that's why we run Vindicate, Deeds, and other removal as well. Spell Snare is much better against us since most of our best plays cost 2 mana, and even then it's not the biggest deal. Just don't get Dazed!

[sdematt]

This deck isn't Jund Aggro Loam though: you can't skip 1-drops. All your best cards are one-drops. Swords, Thoughtseize, Top, IoK, Duress, Path, etc. are all really good. I'd rather have a Misstep on my first Thoughtseize and have them Force of Will my Swords.

I laid out all my cards (well, all my cards that could be played in this deck) and I asked myself, "What decks will I be facing going to a major tournament?"

Now, there was recently a Black Lotus tournament where the Top 6 was UWr Stoneblade and 5 NO RUG. Stoneblade won, but it shows both these decks are a) good, and b) popular.

Point being, we should be concentrating on these decks, as well as Dredge, Maverick, Merfolk, etc, as they'll show up quite often. So, what cards overlap in usefulness in the main and board against these matchups?

1) Thoughtseize. Taking NO, Ancestral Visions, Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Breakthrough, Noble Hierarch/good stuffs, Aether Vial is a really good game plan. Sure, "Misstep happens" (my new slogan :tongue:), but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my playing good cards. If they have it, they have it. If they Force it, even better, you just selectively Hymed them.

2) Hymn to Tourach: To a lesser extent than TS, Hymn is also super good, even on the draw. Hitting anything in these "super powered" top decks, so to speak, puts a real dent in the works, as they're so finely tuned. At this point, we're putting a mine under a piece of precise German military equipment, so to speak. I don't mind taking a Crucible and a Spell Snare, or even two lands. But, the chance of hitting their Batterskull, NO, SFM, Goyf, Bolt, Fire/Ice, Sylvan, etc. is super good. It's super BAD against Dredge, but hey look, we now have a card to board out :tongue:

3) Swords to Plowshares: The best removal in the format, hands down. Stoneblade plays it, and so should we. It's the reason why NO Bant beats up on NO RUG (there's other issues too, but BANT beats RUG, I've tried it). The life swing can be an issue, but you don't care. Honestly. Removing a Goyf, Noble, Dryad Arbor, etc. is good. Taking out a Lord of Atlantis, etc. is great. You can't play a card just because it might be countered, that just means play MORE removal :P

4) Dark Confidant: Sure, it gets Spell Snared and Forced, but Dark Confidant lets you keep up with decks who play Visions, Brainstorm, etc. Sure, it gets nuked as soon as possible, but really, you need him.


My point here is, fuck what they have, play what good against them. They can't have the nuts all the time, and if they do against you, then you lose. Big whoop. I'll try to grind my list a bit later this week, as right now, I'm sick :(

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

in the Team America thread i read that, Mental Misstep is rumored to get banned soon, what do you guys think?, could this really be true, or just wishfull thinking of a few people?

if its true, what would that mean for The Rock (its allmost as i cannot remember times where there was no misstep, funny^^)

anyway what do you think? will people start playing more spell snare in that case, or maybe spell pierce?, will fast combo-decks come back?

[sdematt]

Holy tits, we're DTB.

-Matt

[TarmoRhox]

Hello!

Here is my version of Junk Depths.

// Lands
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Savannah
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [V10] Mox Diamond
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

I perefer Mental Misstep because it can protect out 20/20 monster to deal lethal damage and very often it protects our confidant which enables our "card advantage" machine.

I don't like tarmo because, IMHO, vanila creatures, even big, are worse that utility creatures and vampire hexmage is even better because it can kill Jace together with Vindicate (my meta is infested by Jace decks) and a couple of vampires can start to scarry your opponent because of their first strike.

I'm thinking about Volrath Stronghold as well but still can't find any slot for it.

Any suggestions and comments are welcome.

[sdematt]

If Mental Misstep comes back, we get better, if that's what you're asking. Fast combo comes back and beats Hive Mind, which we struggle against, but we do alright against Fast combo.

The meta will shift back to the way it once was pre-GP Providence, but I believe that both NO RUG and Stoneblade will stay good decks. But, I don't forsee it being banned: it changed the Legacy metagame for sure, but it didn't kill the format. That's a job for Snapcaster Mage. That card will be CRAZY good in Dreadnought, TA, Stoneblade, and fucking nuts in Vintage. Pay 3, Recall again? Holy tits.

The most "bannable" card right now is Show and Tell. If they HAD to ban a card, that's the one they'd ban.

-MAtt

[muscleb]

I can see the idea behind dropping all 1CC spells, in that case you should 100% run 4 mox. I just cannot see the deck being fast and at the same time consistent enough, even with all those moxes. IMO just play a bunch of 1CC spells and perhaps even play 2-3 missteps yourself(at least in any form of Hexmage combo list).
I think the way to go with the kind of decks topping the meta, is 0 moxes and more business spells.

So The Rock right now kind of boils down to which two drop(s) you want to play: Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge or Hexmage. With the goyf plan i like packing alot of Vindicate so you can land a threat and just keep your opponent of lands. With Stoneforge you are not as fast, but you gain more raw power, and I like playing Hexmage with Stoneforge, more bodies to carry swords and a good answer to an otherwise hard card to beat: Jace!

These are my thoughts about the deck right now, please feel free to give some constructive feedback :)

[AggroSteve]

i do not think snapcaster mage will be that nuts (at least outside of vintage), since the alternate cost for the most tempocards in those deck will not apply if i understood the card right, though phyrexian mana will still count i think, so another time misstepping for 2 mana, or another time dismember for 3 mana, seems nice but not overwhelming to me

EDIT: i really did not expect the rock to be moved to DTB at the moment, really nice thing^^, my first DTB i am running (aside of Team America sometimes, but this will stay my pet-deck .....forever)

[damionblackgear]

Berry, your manabase looks fine. You're running a less greedy version of my manabase (23 lands and 4 duals) alongside diamonds. You should've have any issues with the your manabase. You may, however, have issues with getting flooded.

I guess if you want to destroy lands I would suggest having more than 2 vindicates. How often are you aiming them at lands? If it's all the time I'd just suggest they be sinkholes or Armageddon(s) instead of vindicates. I know Geddon is still white but you should be fine with diamonds, loams and 25 lands.

-----

Just wondering, for loam decks, why not use crucible? You can still abuse the waste-lock but you don't give up your draw to do it. I haven't seen any of the lists running a cycle land so you're not really getting more of a bonus other than it requires more than one counter to keep it offline. But, if they're countering that, there is one less counter for your deck.

If Dredge keeps growing, I would suggest people start main-decking your Bog(s), if you're not. It's a little slow but you should be able to get answers on the table before things really get out of control. Scavengine Ooze is another thing that you can have to take over the match. Leyline is still a little narrow to be using right now. Extirpate effects are a lot more difficult to use against them but they are effective if used at the right time, with the right target. You should also look into ways to deal with the bridges.

Jace decks shouldn't really be causing an issue. There should be enough disruption (Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Hymn, etc) to stop it from coming into play quickly or surviving very long (attacking with large creatures, vindicates, Pulses, etc). I guess no matter which way it goes, you can always choke them.

-----

Vs Hivemind, discard should be a good way to fight them. Diamonds being able to produce Red and blue means that you only need to get to 5 mana to stop the titan from being an issue. They'll need multiples. I'd be more concerned about T.E.S. returning than Hivemind. This becomes a possibility if they do decide to ban Misstep.

Again, I'm against the bannings. If they stop Misstep then they might as well say that they'll fix every issue someone cry's about. Yes, Misstep is showing up everywhere but, Brainstorm is showing up as well. And Basic Island for that matter. It's not that people aren't able to fight it, it's that they don't want to. Adjusting is one of the things that people have to do in legacy. If they don't, they'll have to suffer with similar outcomes every time.

The other part of that is that there are ton's of decks that misstep fits into (because it's free). I would wonder what the percentage of decks playing misstep in them opposed to just seeing the top 16 decks from a tournament. If 70% of decks are playing Misstep then it's that many more that have the ability to show up in the top 16. Especially since you can miss top 16 at x-2... it's happened to me more than once.

[mdc1010]

Just wondering, for loam decks, why not use crucible? You can still abuse the waste-lock but you don't give up your draw to do it. I haven't seen any of the lists running a cycle land so you're not really getting more of a bonus other than it requires more than one counter to keep it offline. But, if they're countering that, there is one less counter for your deck.

Because of a few reasons. First is the great synergy with Stronghold. You dredge a needed fatty, no worries, put it on top. Another reason is because it returns them to your hand, which in turn gives drawing another Mox more value later in the game. It also feeds your goyf if needed. Also against all of the counter decks running around if they counter your crucible you are hosed, however you can dredge back the Loam as often as needed. They can only counter it so many times.

[sdematt]

Snapcaster Mage is slightly insane. Target spell gains flashback is pretty good. Brainstorm, Misstep, Stifle (if played), Swords, Spell Snare, etc. It seems quite good.

I definitely think you can play both Goyf AND SFM, but they're different cards. It depends what you're trying to do: are you trying to run out SFM as soon as possible, or are you waiting until turn 4/5 to lay it out and ride out the midgame? It's a very similar situation to White America vs. Team America: midgame goodness versus Tempo.

The nice thing is, we can have both if we want to!

-Matt

[C Rayz Walz]

If you guys were listening to the star city games last week Brain Kibler said that he highly doubts that card will get banned since he felt that card was made for this format. I have to agree with him since I can't really see them banning this so soon and I really don't think it needs to be. I actually don't think anything should really be banned right now but if something does I actually think it should be stoneforge.

[sdematt]

I don't think it will be banned.

Like I said, Wizards hates combo, so if something had to go, I'd put my money on Show and Tell.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

I know everyone likes vindicates over pulses, but there are games where the pulses are much more useful than the vindicate. Iona named white played in reanimator, or dredge full of zombies.

To be honest, I think i've only destroyed a land 2 times the whole time I've used vindicate.

Thats made me use pulses more.

[baghdadbob]

I think that with the current rise of decks playing Jtms/stoneforge Hexmage is definitely necessary and worth playing in combination with dark depths. Also krosan grip should be heavily considered m/b, at the least pridemage.

[damionblackgear]

Because of a few reasons. First is the great synergy with Stronghold. You dredge a needed fatty, no worries, put it on top. Another reason is because it returns them to your hand, which in turn gives drawing another Mox more value later in the game. It also feeds your goyf if needed. Also against all of the counter decks running around if they counter your crucible you are hosed, however you can dredge back the Loam as often as needed. They can only counter it so many times.

The stronghold aspect is a turn late (which a lot can happen within that timeframe). Honestly, I'd rather draw it than play another effect to wait another turn. Additionally, they may just waste the stronghold, or remove it when you try to loam it after dredging it.

Diamonds... are they really worth it? You could just pitch the land to mox and play it using the crucible... same effect. If you're going to draw a land, why not just draw it? Why pay 1G for it? Yes, there are times that you will want another diamond active, but with a crucible, you'll be playing lands out of your yard anyway.

The counter/discard (adding that it) point is probably the best defense. I won't argue that you can force a loam through. I feel that If they're using it on that, then they're not taking the piece of action you have. I would much rather have a Crucible taken than a Knight, Mystic, or GSZ. Honestly, if the loam/crucible is the best card in the hand then you're probably in trouble anyway and, sometimes, the threat of a waste-lock is too much and will get them to pull the land recursion instead of what they should be getting (I'm not a fan of using the, "bad player" defense but awkward situations have the potential to make anyone into a "bad player").
Counters are a little different as you have to make them use/discard them. If you're trying to get the crucible out there, just bait for counters. It'll land if you're doing it right. Although, you can't beat the topdeck. Just remember that.

----

I've played both and I've never liked the disadvantage of Loam. The biggest disadvantage of loam is that it's slow. You're going to be a 1-2 turns behind anything you have planned with Loam. We don't have cycle lands so a counter makes that 2-3 turns. Yes, you can fully wastelock someone but, you won't get to do that to everyone (or very many people).
Also, GY hate hurts the base deck already (Knight and goyf both relying on the yard for power). the worst thing that you could have happen is to get crypted, bogged, relic'd, etc with the loam in the yard when you don't want the cards on top, or with it on the stack. Crucible forces them to have repetitive use removal (ooze, relic, etc) or blow their load when they think it's safe. Often times you will be able to just continue doing what you were because you could operate out of the yard.
Crucible suffers from not showing you more lands to grab with it every time you use it, but you still get to draw out of it and spells are what you really want anyway. 1;1 we can out-draw 90% of the field. So why hinder than draw?
You also aren't dumping mana into it after the initial 3. Casting 2 each turn, can add up.

I do want to say, I am aware that you don't have to loam every turn. Not doing so is one of the luxuries that you get but, each turn that you don't, is a turn that it's value depreciates. You'll use the crucible every turn you can (baring getting new lands to add to it's value) and every turn it's out there (like Bob) you gain a little bit of advantage. those are the reason's I would push crucible.

If anyone's going to try crucible (and I hope someone does) I would suggest using exploration in the accelerate slot. Ever watched 43-lands go nuts with wastes in a turn? Ever wanted to do it? don't worry about Misstep. If they're countering that, you're laughing at them ...loudly.

[sdematt]

I think that with the current rise of decks playing Jtms/stoneforge Hexmage is definitely necessary and worth playing in combination with dark depths. Also krosan grip should be heavily considered m/b, at the least pridemage.


I'd have to say I disagree. Playing Grip main isn't the best, I'll be honest. What game does it have against NO RUG? Merfolk (besides Vial)? Dredge? Nothing.

Hexmage gives you a 1-turn clock, which can be super good. Racing a Progenitus is a really good play, but going in on this plan has a few disadvantages.

Hexmage Depths plan is vulnerable to: Stifle, Wasteland, Jace, Counterspells, Swords to Plowshares/Path, Vendilion Clique. Clique has seriously risen in popularity; Going all-in with Wishes in the combo build seems terrible, since they just grab your Hexmage or whatever you wished for. Seems bad. Hexmage itself isn't terrible. A 2/1 First Strike that nukes Jace is fine, but if I'm playing the Jace deck, I really don't care. I kill it, counter it, or just beat face with Batterskull. Sure, it helps, dont' get me wrong, but usually you're waiting to blow up your Depths, and not Jace, with it. Or, they can foil your whole plan by keeping a Wasteland open. Not hard to do in a deck with Crucible.

The 1-of Crucible is pretty dirty, I've tried it. It's only good in the extreme long game for Wasteland lock, but it's pretty good. To be extra, add 1 Ghost Quarter and let simmer for 25 minutes :tongue:

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
1 terravore
2 qasali pridemage
1 gaddock teeg
4 dark confidant

Sorcery (13)
4 Thoughtseize
2 green sun zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 vindicate

Instant (4)
4 Swords to Plowshare

Artifacts/Enchantment (6)
2 sensei's diving top
1 slyvan Library
3 Mox Diamond

Lands (24)
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
3 marsh flats
4 verdent catacombs
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 volrath's stronghold
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
3 wastelands

Sideboard
2 enlightened tutor
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 dueling ground
2 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
1 thrun the last troll
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 null rod
2 krosan grip
1 Path to Exile

Any suggestions?

[berry]

@Damion: I DO have a problem with getting flooded, and have been trying to cut a land, you think I could cut two? The balance is in still being able run the utility-lands. I want to stick with 1 canopy, 2 dark depths, 1 maze, 1 volraths stronghold, 1 urborg.

To that I'm running 8 fetches, 7 lands and 4 wastelands. You'd shave fetches?

[Nelis]

Am I the only one who thinks this deck just doesn't cut it at all atm? I've tried almost any version (with and without GSZ, with and without Stoneforge package, with combination of GSZ and Stoneforge, with and without Mox Diamonds*) and I find it (almost) impossible to win against those Jace/Stoneforge decks. I also have a hard time winning from Merfolk and even from Zoo. It is possible to win from combo if your sideboard is tuned (which I think mine is+) but that can go horribly wrong just as well.

*:
The only version I haven't been able to properly test/play with yet is the Dark Depths version. I have done some preliminary testing and it feels very slow and/or inconsistent. The draws can be so random just like some manabase draws. Living Wish seems too slow and I feel Loam isn't really worth it.

+:
SB For those interested.
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Umzawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg (in combination with a Teeg in the main and 2 GSZ main, (siding out a 3rd one).

[damionblackgear]

@Damion: I DO have a problem with getting flooded, and have been trying to cut a land, you think I could cut two? The balance is in still being able run the utility-lands. I want to stick with 1 canopy, 2 dark depths, 1 maze, 1 volraths stronghold, 1 urborg.

To that I'm running 8 fetches, 7 lands and 4 wastelands. You'd shave fetches?

I didn't actually see the Stronghold in the list yet but, I would start off with actually giving up on the 2 Depths. You can already recur it if anything happens and you can also fetch for it with Knight. You'll never want to have 2 of them in an opening hand (unless you're pitching them to a Mox).

If you want to add the Stronghold, I would actually replace a wasteland with it. You don't want to cut too many colored sources since you need the black for the Hexmage and Hymn.

Cutting that way gives you an open slot. I would suggest a Pernicious Deed or a Sylvan Library. Selection is a strong thing and so is mass removal. Even if you lose a mox or 2 if you're probably gaining an advantage.

Have you gotten a chance to put in any testing?

[berry]

It's a Karakas in my list instead, I changed it later on.

So...

-1 Wasteland
-1 Dark Depths (are you sure about this? I'll try!)
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Deed/Sylvan.

Sylvan is sweet, but with 2 tops and a Loam already? Maybe, why not. Deed seems to be my choice though.

I've been playtesting massively against UW StoneBlade and nothing else recently, but our pre-Amsterdam test group is shaping up and there is a GPT here in town on Saturday, I'll report from that.

It's the UW testing that led me to cut Wishes (sloooow and cliqued) & cut Missteps for Hymns (he told me everytime his Plow got misstepped he just felt lucky that he wasn't hymned, and I can agree...).

[mdc1010]

So I've completed even more testing. I've moved away from using Mox Diamonds due to a slower format overall. I toyed around with dropping Thoughtseize but felt like others were right regarding not doing it. Especially with dropping the Mox's you really do need them turn 1 when possible. Since I dropped the Mox's completely I also dropped the Riftstone Portal. The portal really shines in the Mox builds only. If I start playing Moxs again then I include the Portal.

I really did end up missing have StP in my build. In this build I was able to keep full sets of all the core disruption and removal cards (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Vindicate, and StP). I was also able to stay greedy and fit in both the Hexmage Combo and Mystic packages. I moved the Loam and Deeds to the sideboard as it's relevance in most game 1s was minimal, and provided to be more stellar out of the side.

Below is the list for testing and feedback.

Also very glad to finally see this in DTB!

//Lands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

//Removal and disruption
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

//Artifcats
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

[Qweerios]

I have been having lots of success with Sinkhole lately. It has been absolutely great against every Stoneforge variants and 3 colors decks. I have recently switched from SFM to Goyf again simply because SFM has proven to be too slow and vulnerable in a deck playing without blue or with a relatively low creature count. With the addition of Sinkhole I have also been very pleased with Birds of Paradise. With 12 land destructive cards, riding a T1 bird to complete board domination is very likely. Here is my current list:


Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (21)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Duress
2 Go for the Throat
3 Extirpate


What is great about this list is all of the various removal packed in the total 75. With 12 discard, 12 land destruction cards, 10 creature removal, and 8 artifact/enchantment removal spells between the MB and SB, tuning for subsequent games is very effective. Winning the die roll is very favorable because recovering from this deck's early disruption and land destruction is extremely difficult. Having no answers to Progenitus is a non-issue because all of the removal compacted in the deck greatly stifles any form of NO plan.

I believe this approach to Rock is more effective at the moment than the slower versions capitalizing on KotR/SFM/GSZ toolboxes.

[AggroSteve]

@ mdc1010: i have used a non-mox build for a long time, and as you allready said, in a non-mox build the card you want in your hand for your first turn is thoughtseize
actually only thoughtseize seemed to few for me in a non-mox build, so i added 2 inquisition of kozileks as well to max out the chances of 1st turn disruption

try it you probably will like it

@ Qweerios: i have allways been skeptical about sinkhole, but you may be right, the meta and opponents right now is not prepared for such an assault on their manabase, so i could definitely see this working just fine,.... but, its not something i will test^^, as i have no sinkholes and do not want to spend that much money on a "temporarily good - otherwise marginal" card

i for my part have been trying the hexmage combo right now in a mox-build, and i do not know how you guys feel about it, but i would actually love to see the full set of moxen in that build, only thing is that the list is sooooo tight that i do not know what to cut.
the only options would be 1 loam (out of 2) or maybe 1 hexmage (out of 3), 1 vindicate (out of 3) or either 1 tarmogoyf (4) or 1 knight (4)
i would probably go with loam, but with more moxen it becomes more powerfull :(

so please some suggestions on this thing would be nice, thx

other thing i was thinking about again, is elspeth. It seems she was dismissed here for quite some time, i was just wondering why, as she, at least in theory, should slay jaceTMS, or am i wrong? And she would be nice having either in the aggro or in the control-role, and is pure CA which we only have bob and hymn for, which seems not that much compared to other decks.
And with her and maybe a knight we would also be able to race a progenitus, just like with marit lage

so what do you guys think?

[Borealis]

AggroSteve, if you're running the Depths combo you can probably cut the 3rd Vindicate for the 4th Mox. If you run 4 moxes, you also might want to bump up to 24 lands (23 is the usual average it seems) and run both the Loams. If Loam has been lackluster for you, maybe dropping to 1 is okay, but in that version I think 2 is more appropriate. Also, you might want to consider cutting Vindicate for 2-3 Missteps, depending on your meta. Vindicate is really good, just hard to squeeze in with the Depths plan in my opinion. What's your list look like?

Also, Elspeth = Hell Yes. She's the best way to beat Blue decks, and is only lackluster in the combo matchups. I'm very happy running 2 in my build, and won't be changing her out anytime soon. She won me the game on more than one occasion last night.

On Life from the Loam vs. Crucible of Worlds:

I'm pretty confident that Loam is better, especially in Junk. First off, I noted that most green decks that want this effect use Loam, whereas the off-green decks resort to Crucible. There are a few concrete reasons why I think Loam is better for us:

1) Mana cost. The extra mana is relevant, especially if you're trying to Waste-lock them or you're stuck on lands yourself. Missing a third land drop is common enough for us, and having that extra Wasteland a turn earlier is often crucial for the LD-plan. Simply put, Crucible is slower and more vulnerable to Daze and mana issues.

2) Card Advantage. Life from the Loam can instantly gain you (up to) 3 cards, whereas Crucible takes another 2 turns to gain that value. If you have 2 Wastelands in the yard, they immediately return to your hand for use later in the game. If Crucible gets removed or your GY gets blown up, you're out of luck. Also, getting value after counterspells is very relevant. Graveyard hate effectively stops both cards if played right, but I'd rather have Loam then Crucible if they're hating on my yard. Also, if they have to waste a card shutting off either effect, it's one less relevant card to affect the board, and with Loam you've already filled your hand back up with lands.

3) Value. Life from the Loam's interacting with library manipulation is ridiculously good. If you know your top cards are land and Loam is in your 'yard, you can bin the lands, draw the Loam, and recast it if necessary for the cards you just binned. Meanwhile, you are digging deeper with Top or Library. The interaction of Loam + Sylvan Library, while slightly confusing (ask sdematt about it...), is a very powerful engine when used correctly. This is in addition to the fact that by Dredging lands into your GY and recurring Fetchlands late in the game, you are thinning your deck out to a statistically-significant degree. Add in a couple Knight activations, and your chances of top-decking relevant spells over useless lands in the endgame skyrockets. This is a subtle but very important aspect of Junk that sometimes is overlooked.

Last night I had more fun with my singleton Sylvan Library and singleton Life from the Loam than I've ever had in 4 rounds of Magic. I probably recurred something like 5 or 6 Wastelands in 3 separate games, and dug my way out of mana trouble in the process. Getting both Library and Loam going at the same time, while lucky, was also quite-game breaking.

Anyway, you can see my stance is that Loam is a bit better than Crucible, but I was considering Crucible for awhile and will do some testing with it in the future to clarify my opinions. In the long run, they basically do the same thing, but I think Loam is more dimensional and gives us more options, especially for the Dark Depths players.

[C Rayz Walz]

Loam is so good with top and library which imo makes it a lot better for this deck. Cow I think is only better in stax vairants and other decks that do not want to pay the 2 mana a turn. I agree with Borealis. Also, I really like elspeth in this deck a lot. I like it a lot with knight and helps against blue decks so much.

[damionblackgear]

It's not that hard to understand. Library's oracle specifically reads drawn. So, if you replace a draw with a dredge (or in the previously more common version exiled with Uba Mask in Green Stax builds) you don't have to put that card back.

Actual ruling - If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

Explained - Library wants 2 cards (if you've DRAWN them).

Simple Explanation - If you draw for turn, dregde first draw and draw, Library will effectively see this as drawing 2 cards and require you to put 2 cards back. If you were to replace another draw then Library see's that you drew 1 card and want 1 card.

You're right though, you do net a card that way. Drawing additional cards is not something to scoff at but you're still Binning 3 cards every time you dredge loam which is essentially 3 lands (if you have them available). Sometimes you'll get Wastelands, other time's you'll get other things. Either way it's still 3 lands (which once we've gotten to 4 do we really want another?!

So essentially, you're suggesting a singleton loam, with a singleton library to get lands 3-8 (3 is worst case scenario) or better put, you're suggesting we lower the amount of threats (as we're milling them) to force a stronghold into our deck (additional colored source in a 3 color mana intensive deck) to essential pay mana to draw lands... and you're calling this card advantage? I'm not attacking you but, this idea seems a little off to me.

Besides, you still have to play the library first. Lord forbid you actually mill it 'cause that'll stop my need for any of my above explanation.

On that note, you mentioned Graveyard hate being better against Crucible than Loam. It's true that effects like Crypt force Crucible to wait until there's another effect to abuse. It's true that repeated use hate cards can remove every land before letting Crucible really be effective. You mean you're seriously telling me it doesn't against Loam?!

Yes, Crypt effects force a choice between the Loams and the lands. Essentially, you're still stuck in the same position as you now need to get lands into the yard again to actually do something with the Loam. Provided they decide to his the lands and not the loam which would be the same as timewalking us as we don't have any ways to draw additional cards (unless you're running library or cycle lands). With a knight, or a usable land in hand this problem is solved. This is where loam has an advantage. You can replace your draw (this seems like a great idea) to maybe get the lands you are looking for.

Repeatable use effects have the same effect on both cards. Loam can race it by again replacing your draw step (so, how're we winning?) but chances are that if they can afford to, they'll keep eating the targets that matter. When they can't, they'll just get the loam and shut it down.

The Crucible will sit there and do nothing until there's a land. No matter what happens, you'll still get to draw. So, if they have to devote resources to the effect (Ooze, Wretch, etc) then you can hope to slip a land in there every now and then without having to waste a turn. Crucible, in this case more than loam, will have value by just sitting there as you still get to draw.

Cost is probably the most relevant thing here. it's 3 vs 1G (essentially 2). The big thing here is that, we're not designed like my old build (Linked below). You're not trying to get to 5 mana to go crazy. The deck needs 3 mana to cast most of it's spells. probability happens but, our manabase is designed to get to 3 lands. Mox or not, you should be able to find 3 lands 85% of the time. If getting to 3 is the issue, you may want to look into adding another land before looking to recur them.

Lastly, I just want to say, even though you're giving up a draw for 3 consistent land drops you are still limited to playing 1 land per turn. So, either way (unless you're playing an exploration effect), you're going to have to deal with your hand filling up with lands.

No matter which version you're running, you're still a Rock deck. Land control isn't the main thing you want. I will say however, I do believe that manabases are getting more vulnerable as time passes and legacy gets newer people. They don't seem to be aware that Moon effects exist. Waste locks can make a good thing bad. Focusing on that, while good, will probably only get you past the first couple rounds.

-Old List for Reference.. my how we've changed-
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571

On Elspeth, She's really good. I've got 2 in my list. Jumping over Moats is crazy good.

[Borealis]

I also have given some thought to the HexDepths plan (sans Stoneforge though) and was thinking that Kenny Mayer may have been onto something with Crop Rotation. I quickly brewed a list today that is a shell of what could be a Wish-less Depths plan. It's not tested, tuned, or even well-thought out, more of a suggestion as to how to concentration on Marit Lage a little more without running Living Wish and losing too much tempo advantage. Here is the quick brew:

4 Bob
4 Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Goyf
(15 Dudes)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
2 Crop Rotation
(10 Instants)

3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
(5 Sorceries)

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Diving Top
(6 Artifacts)

2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
(24 Land)

Crop Rotation gives you instant speed Marit Lages with Hexmage in play, and you don't even need to pass priority, very much faster than Wishing a turn or 1/2 turn before you want to combo. 4x Moxes to drop Depths from your opening hand when you don't want it (or are on Loam), and to make turn 2 Marit Lages a reasonable possibility. 4x Misstep to protect your Marit Lage and Crop Rotation, and just cuz. 4x Wasteland to still get potential Waste Locks, and to defend against opposing Karakas/Wasteland/Maze of Ith. This build would aim to be more aggressive on the combo, without losing too much tempo from Living Wish. As I said though, brief suggestion mostly highlighting Crop Rotation as a potential include, it is by no means tested or proven to work. When I was running HexDepths (Jesse Roberts' version), I considered adding 1-2 Crop Rotation for added consistency, and I still think it might be the way to go. Kenny Mayer was on to something back there....

Anyway, I'm just getting comfortable with my Classic Junk list now, so it will be awhile before I revert back to Depths, but I'll probably try something like this when I do. Let me know if any of you try Crop Rotation and think it's awful or decent, I'm curious what the consensus might be.

~B

[Derayler]

I was in Richmond for the open and spoke to Kenny about the deck. He had switched to the wish version because it was more stable. He said that he was getting blown out left and right with crop rotation. He said the tricks were cute but not necessary. Just FYI, the list on that deck tech was a copy paste of a list from a MODO player. I think Living Wish is a lot better than people give it credt for. It's just like cunning wish used to work in the old landstill lists.

Also you have 4 MB answers to Progenitus with wish because you can grab Phyrexian Metamorph.

[AggroSteve]

@ borealis: i would never want to cut the 3rd vindicate, as all the other options seem more appropriate, i really love vindicate
and i am allready running 24 lands and rarely get flooded, only if i use loam more than 1 time, and with the 4th mox i would have definitely gone to 24 lands if i wouldn't allready run them

one thing i was thinking about is to cut the dephts combo and try elspeth in its place as a 2-off, even if i really have to say that the 2/1 first striker are quite good even without the combo, in that case i can cut 1 loam as it is not that needed anymore for recurring the combo, and then i have to see which list i would prefer

right now my list looks like this, only sideboard is still not ready as i just recently switched from a mox-less-build to a moxbuild but i will post the sideboard i was thinking about

24 lands

3 march flats
3 verdant catacombs
3 godless shrine (still havent got the real duals)
2 overgrown tomb (still havent got the real duals)
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains
1 horizon canopy
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 karakas
1 volrath's stronghold
1 maze of ith
2 dark dephts
3 wasteland

4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
3 vampire hexmage

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
2 life from the loam

2 senseis divining top
3 mox diamond

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach

SIDEBOARD

4 gerrards verdict (have to try this, otherwise these would be inquisition of kozilek)
3 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
3 diabolic edict
2 krosan grip

something like this
i really like the idea of gerrards verdict, specially if i would go up to 4 moxen, as the would help against so many problematic matchups like zoo, burn, combo,.... right now i cannot think of anything else
the rest of the board should be quite clear to everyone

[sdematt]

I've got an awfully strange idea to combat all the crazy Sylvan Library/Brainstorm/Visions based decks. I'll keep y'all updated.

-Matt

[f|i[p]]

HAs rock been getting top 8's recently?

Ive been playing nicfit lately and haven't been checking on the rock lately...

I've seen an interesting deck list with stoneforges and depths..it looks good on paper...
Ill see if I can tweak it out more..

[PanderAlexander]

I've got an awfully strange idea to combat all the crazy Sylvan Library/Brainstorm/Visions based decks. I'll keep y'all updated.

-Matt

Chains of Mephistopheles?

[Borealis]

Simple Explanation - If you draw for turn, dregde first draw and draw, Library will effectively see this as drawing 1 cards and require you to put 1 card back. If you were to replace another draw then Library see's that you drew 0 card and not require you to put any cards back.

I am aware that the Sylvan Library/Life from the Loam interaction is pretty simple once clearly explained. I'm not sure this particular example is clear, but basically yes, if you replace one of the draws with a Dredge, you will need to pay 4 life for each of the 2 cards you actually draw. If you replace 3 draws with a Dredge, you don't have to pay any life, but you aren't looking at the top of your library either. Point being, it's probably optimal to:
1) Draw for Turn. (set aside for Library trigger)
2) Trigger Sylvan Draw #1 = Replace with Dredge for LftL. Observe as you bin 3 cards and put Loam in your hand
3) Draw Sylvan Draw #2. Choose between this and your first draw, pay 4-8 life, keep accordingly.

At this point you've maybe just recurred a Life from the Loam, or possibly that and drawn 2 cards off your deck, but the point is you've seen 5 cards from your library.

But let's forego the Sylvan Library for argument's sake and say you just run 3 Tops, meaning you'll probably see close to one a game (and maybe a Loam every 4th game if you're only running 1 like me). Does Crucible let you shave away your top 3 cards if you don't like them? No. Does Card Quality help win matches? Yes. The point is, Loam gives you more synergistic interactions with the deck than Crucible.



You're right though, you do net a card that way. Drawing additional cards is not something to scoff at but you're still Binning 3 cards every time you dredge loam which is essentially 3 lands (if you have them available). Sometimes you'll get Wastelands, other time's you'll get other things. Either way it's still 3 lands (which once we've gotten to 4 do we really want another?!

So essentially, you're suggesting a singleton loam, with a singleton library to get lands 3-8 (3 is worst case scenario) or better put, you're suggesting we lower the amount of threats (as we're milling them) to force a stronghold into our deck (additional colored source in a 3 color mana intensive deck) to essential pay mana to draw lands... and you're calling this card advantage? I'm not attacking you but, this idea seems a little off to me.

Drawing cards is good. Binning more lands from your deck to recur Loam is better, because it means you won't run out of targets. Often I've Loamed the first time with only 1-2 lands in the yard, only to fill it back up with the recurred fetch and lands off the top. If you run out of targets with Crucible, you are back to topdeck mode with little control over your draws. Loam digs you out of trouble or into action far more effectively.

Also, to be clear: I am not suggesting that running 1 Life from the Loam and 1 Sylvan necessarily means they will ever hit play together, but I was pointing out that when they do, it is bonkers. Also, my single Library is actually the 3rd Top, and therefore not a true "singleton". And yes, blindly binning 3 relevant cards sucks, but if they are lands than you just doubled the value of your Loam, which is worth the risk. I'm saying Loam is better than Crucible in Junk, in most cases. Milling our threats out by accident with Dredge doesn't reduce the number of threats we run; that's a misinterpretation. If I said "run 3 Loam and cut 2 Bob", that would be reducing the number of threats in the deck. Statistically, you will dredge away more non-threat cards on a given Dredge than you would threats, assuming roughly 16-20 of the cards in the deck are considered as such. Dredging does have it's own set of consequences, but changing your decklist percentages it does not.

I also never suggested running Volrath's Stronghold, if that's what you're referencing (which adds colorless mana, btw...), but other people have pointed out the synergy with Loam/Stronghold which is certainly notable. (I personally think Stronghold is too slow and too colorless to fit into my build, but it's a great card to have available.) And yes, I do think paying 2 mana to draw 3 cards is a fucking good ability, lands or not. Drawing cards = Card advantage. When they can be Wastelands (often considered "spells"), it's even better. When your hand is all gas and your board is only: Swamp, Bayou , drawing 3 lands also sounds great. No one said you have to play Loam again next turn, you've got up to 3 turns to run out of lands anyway, and half the time you let it sit until you decide dredging is relevant again. Do we want to stop playing lands after the 4th? Absolutely not! Legacy games don't all end on turn 4, and it's often the long game that counts. I will gladly have 6 lands in play when half of them could be Maze of Ith, Wasteland, Horizon Canopy, Karakas, or any of the other possible tricks we keep up our deep sleeves. Land dropping wins you games, especially against control.

Anyway, really minor differences, but you wrote a book Damion so I figured I'd write back. The list you posted from last year looks like fun, as Armageddon with Crucible is certainly oozing with evilness!

[damionblackgear]

Happy you responded back. Was a little worried i may have offended you. Somehow lost part of the simplified version of library's replacement effect so it's actually wrong right now (fixed this). Will have to explain it correctly later for everyone else as it's 2:19 am and I'm on my phone.

I will say, "I'm sorry". Another person had mentioned stronghold in my first response, not you. On that, if you're not recurring, a milled Bob is gone. That does reduce threat count. Even with foresight you can't say for sure that you'll hit only lands. Dredging out of 3 draws (when seen with top as that will be more common) means that you've essentially decided that those lands were better than anything on top. At times is probably correct sometime but what about those times where you see a moderate 3? Not every look can be a pile. Also, we're not able to abuse random lands in hand like other decks (assualt, manabonds, exploration) so you are saying that the land you play that turn was more important than those 3 cards. The others are a bonus.

I touched on gy removal already so I'm going to leave that at: Both cards are effected equally. One can try to set itself back up. The other will allow for drawing of actual cards while remaining online. That choice is yours.

Since I can't sleep, I logged into my computer and fixed it.To sum it up, Library wants 2 cards DRAWN that turn. So, if you haven't DRAWN the 2 cards, library wants however many you have... or 4 life per.

[Krondo9]

I think to back up Borealis, The main difference to me is, not only does loam cost less mana than crucible, which is always relevant, but it cant be countered like crucible. Sure, You can counter it once, but it will only come back. Whereas if a card like crucible is countered, you cannot bring it back. This is very relevant against combo/control decks, where their lands are very important. I definitely think that in a deck list this, where blue is pretty strong against, you want to hurt their landbase. Loam Guarantees it, Crucible doesnt.

[Borealis]

Thanks Krondo. Don't worry Damion, I'm not offended. I'll respond to a couple of your points and then we can agree to disagree.

1) Choosing to Dredge always risks milling cards you actually wanted to draw, but if I'm dredging my Loam it is because I do value the land in my yard more than drawing a card. This is most likely because I'm either on a LD plan and getting back 1 or more Wastelands (thus virtually drawing a spell and gaining tempo from the other lands I will have over my opponent), or I am simply low on lands and already have enough spells in hand. Otherwise, it's the late game and I'm digging for some reason, perhaps with a Top effect in play. If you have plenty of lands and no line on a Mana Denial plan, but need to draw heat, you probably don't want Loam in your hand anyway, so Dredging can wait.

2) Excluding Top effects, blindly milling 3 cards off the top does obviously reduce the number of threats in your deck, but not the threat density, which was what I was trying to point out before. Let's say your deck runs 15 "threats" and 24 lands. Statistically 1 out of every 4 cards you mill will be a threat, and a little more than 1 out of every 3 cards will be a land. You are more likely to mill a land than a threat, which is notable, and statistically your deck's threat density shouldn't change. Luck of the draw says that there will be times when it gets worse, yes, but there will be more times when it gets better, so it's a wash.

Now add in the fact that you run 3x Top, and you've just improved your ability to mill irrelevant cards (or lands!) away. That provides card quality, which is extremely relevant in Legacy. Point is, when used correctly, Loam fuels itself and can improve your chances of drawing into action, not the other way around. Also, fueling that late game Mox in your hand is not irrelevant either. :smile:

Ok, I would say that the dead horse has been beaten now. Damion, feel free to respond again, but I'll leave it at that. The difference between Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds is pretty minor, but my stance is still that Loam provides more synergy with the deck, thus creating opportunity.

Sorry to all who didn't care so much about this debate, but now we have an archive of information on their pros and cons! Now back to Living Wish.......

[damionblackgear]

Ok. so the arguments are that it costs 1 more mana and can be countered. I think at this point it'll just be me repeating everything from here on out so I'll let the Loams go. It was fun though.

-Mana Requirements-

Does the color requirement come into play there? You have similar chances of not having the color to produce than getting the single extra mana to play. It's not like you're being asked to produce 6 or 7 additional mana. So my question becomes, is the green more important than the 1.

-Casting-

Without a draw effect, a countered loam is still a 'timewalk'. The best that can happen at that point is that you may have the third land in hand, in which case you should probably be baiting with something else. There are times that countering the loam is the right play. I think against this styled deck, I would do it almost every time, without hesitation. The deck is slow moving and greedy for lands. a tempo play puts the deck that much further back.

Normally, when a crucible got countered, It felt like a weight off my chest. That meant one less counter for a threat/vindicate/card advantage piece. You don't get it back (unless you're playing a regrowth effect). So, if you need the crucible, bait the counter. You'll have to do it with the threats anyway.

-Early Disruption-

People should have been figuring out that fetching non-basics isn't always the best choice (especially in the early game). Even in this three colored deck I'd rather have my basics (If my hand allows). If I was playing a two colored deck, I'd focus on getting the basics I needed instead of the duals I want to show off. I understand that they can't have every fetch ...all the time but, they should be expecting a waste from every unknown deck and playing accordingly.

Decks are playing more lands now. Can you afford to spend every turn wasting their early plays? You'll mill yourself before you establish a threat. Yes, I understand that people are afraid of Jace, Mystic, Progen... but you can't hide behind that fear. It's going to happen.

The Progen decks are running Nobles (who's really good against the waste plan)
The jace decks are running counters (timewalk effect + Jace = win)
Mystic (2cc+2activate=you having drawn 1-6 lands and gotten rid of answers)

Anyways Blue (non-combo) deck should not be an issue. NO RUG should be the only blue deck that is an is a possible issue and only if you're not ready to fight a Hierarch (turns into Progen a lot). The land recursion should probably come out either way.

-Simple Irony-

My favorite thing to play against a Blue deck is 2G and effects their manabase. CHOKE. If you're having that kind of trouble, I'd suggest you try out a couple.

-Off Topic-

I still haven't heard anyone say that they've played against another Rock styled deck with the Hexmage builds. I found it to be in favor of the other builds (even traditional), you all?

[sdematt]

When I played Hexmage Depths against my regular Rock build, I was slightly disfavoured. No crushing was happening, but slightly disfavourable.

-MAtt

[AggroSteve]

i haven't played another rock-styled deck with my hexmage build jet, but i would be very interested in how those play out

it would be quite interesting to know every typ of The Rock Mirrors, as we got a lot of different builds here i think

hexmage
mystic
mox
non-mox
GSZ
maybe elspeth-versions

if anyone with more experience than myself would explain to all of us the ups and downs of these popular versions compared to each other, that would be really nice!!

somehow like Version A < Version B: because...
and so on^^

plus it would be nice to know a bit more about in what meta the different builds would run better than the others

i hope i do not ask to much^^

[Borealis]

Damion, isn't getting a Loam countered the same as getting a Crucible countered, only a turn later? Also, we wouldn't be discussing these cards as inclusions unless Land Destruction was an effective way to fight our opponents sometimes, which it is. Of course a good Legacy player will fetch around Wastelands when possible, and of course it's not always right to attack their land base anyway. Your tone seems to imply that I'm trying to go for Mana Denial plan in every game, which I'm not at all, but what are you running Crucible for if not the same exact purpose as me? Also while Crucible getting countered is a weight off your chest, Loam getting countered is a wry smile at my opponent. :wink:

It takes a skilled pilot to decide how and when to use Wasteland and Vindicates to slow down our opponent's land base, which is what makes the strategy so fun and challenging. We might both go about it with slightly different cards, but the end result is the same. No sense in arguing about that, since we both should know when it is right to try and mana-screw our opponent. Either tool is effectively fine for the job, I'll agree with you there. Both are also equally useless in certain situations.

I also don't think that fighting all Blue decks is that easy. I can confidently say I'm favored in the NO Rug matchups in testing, but that is thanks in part to having a decent amount of experience playing against it (roomate had it built for awhile), and because I'm now running 3x Phyrexian Metamorphs in the side. It is by no means easy though. Merfolk is the other Blue deck we have good game against, with all our removal and Goyfs and Knights and whatnot.

The Blue decks we have trouble with are still Jace/Mystic/Standstill/Visions decks, as well as DeedStill or Team America. Jace is probably the biggest problem, even with Hexmages or Vindicates, since he refuels them and disrupts us immensely otherwise. Stoneforge is a little easier to deal with, but can be problematic if we are light on removal. The slower Deed or Standstill/Visions based decks are just a royal pain for most creature decks to fight against. That doesn't mean we don't have game, but I wouldn't say that they aren't an issue. Dark Depths is even more vulnerable to Counterspells and effects like Innocent Blood, which is part of why I'm not running that version currently.

Choke is an absolutely great card against Blue-based Control: I'm running 3. I'm not sure it's that effective against NO Rug, and haven't needed to side it in yet. Thrun is also pretty stellar against Jace and the like, and works nicely against Zoo and decks packing a lot of removal as well. My current sideboard is posted a few pages back, the only change being I'm going to try out Darkblast in place of the Go for the Throat. For quicker reference:

3 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt (possibly removal for now)
1 Darkblast

I'm not sure it's the right call in a larger field, but my meta has a healthy dose of Bobs, Lavamancers, Hierarchs, and Vendilion Cliques, and repeated removal seems good. Plus I clearly have a penchant for milling away my entire library! :tongue:

In the HexDepths vs. Regular Junk mirror (or pseudo-mirror vs. Deadguy), I also felt like I had the disadvantage when I was on the Depths plan. Often the interaction in the first few turns leaves the Depths deck topdecking for action, and Living Wish and Hexmage aren't that strong on their own when you don't have time too actually piece together the combo. A lot of my friends are on Hymn decks, and having to fight against that card with none of my own was also frustrating. It's hard to fight through Wastelands, Swords, and Discard without your own to fight back with, but it's also likely that I gave up a little too soon out of frustration before fully learning how to pilot that version properly. Either way I think standard Junk lists are slightly favored over Marit Lage versions.

[sdematt]

Chains of Mephistopheles will be tested tonight. They can't profitably play Brainstorm, Jace, Visions, or Sylvan Library under Chains.

-Matt

[berry]

Just a reminder; in my opinion the best (and most discussed in the last few pages too, btw) JunkDepths-plan is the one me and AggroSteve is running with just 3 hexmage, 2 depths main with urborg, and no more focus on it.

Also: Chains is fucking great, I sided some when I played DeadGuy and it's just sooo sweet - they should work the same way here..? Sadly, mine were borrowed and now I'm out.

[Koby]

RE: Hexmage/Depths in Rock
I've tested a similar list in MTGO and my impressions were that the deck didn't need the extra help. Getting the combo off reliably is one of the harder aspects, and because of the marginal cards added to the deck, ruin the consistency and strength of the remaining cards. The amount of effort expended in putting together the combo which is still vulnerable to the same removal as KotR, and Karakas is not worth it.

RE: Choke vs NO RUG
It's very effective. I've played brought it in when I've been playing Maverick and it's a solid addition for sideboard games. It does mean, however, that you want to use removal on Noble Hierarch, which the deck is capable of (StP, Vindicate, Pulse, Jitte, etc), which means you only need to deal with Goyf or a quick Clique.

I thought that KotR builds already had a solid advantage over NO RUG lists by nature of playing 4/4's. Choke definitely improves the matchup, and gives you better answers against more dedicated blue-control.

[damionblackgear]

Hmm, looks like you posted while I was writing to Krondo9. I'll leave the rest alone (since we were both planning having our last posts be the end of our debate :). Just going to let the talk about timewalk.

I chose Timewalk because when a loam get countered, you're probably going to spend the next turn dredging and playing it. Under that, you've gained nothing (except growing the Loam targets) and they've spent a counter (maybe another card if it was force) to take another turn while you repeat your actions. Esentially, a countered Loam is a Timewalk in the same sense that a Remand is a timewalk.

With Crucible, most often you're not going to try the same thing. A countered Crucible is gone (barring regrowth effects) just like any other spell.

[Derayler]

I have been reading over this thread for the last couple days and it really seems like only a few people are really trying to see what is better right now, not over all but what's good now is important. Most people here either like one version of the deck or the other. Most people seem to be fighting between Hexdepths combo, GSZ, mystic, mox or not, and the what not.
To me it seems like the following is true to what I think is the best direction for the deck

Mox vs. No Mox - I think right now the hardest thing for this deck to beat is Jace and Progenitus. To beat these I think the really fast start is important. It lets you slam a T1 Bob or T2 knight which both are very strong against these decks.

GZS - I think that with our deck you dont really need as many creatures as other decks because we are not a dedicated beat down deck and we do not use this to ramp up mana like the other decks that use this do. To me is seems like GSZ is strongest in the NO RUG or Bant deck. While it isnt bad per say, I just think there are much better thing.

Mystic - While this card with good equipment is isanely strong, it isnt good against jace and the decks like that. While it beats up on the aggro decks I think it is a little better to just have a goyf. Goyf trumps batterskulls anyways so you already have an advantage against those decks. Gerry T also talked about how goyf is getting stronger of late due to mystics popularity.

Hexdetphs - This combo is really fun to me. I think before this combo wasnt amazing because the classic version was good in the old metagame, but now that it has changed I think this gains a lot of strength. The instant speed creature that can just kill them is god against jace and being able to race progenitus is very valuable. It is also very good to know that often your opponent will hold removal instead of just killing your goyf or knight out of fear of dying. Plus you can just steal games that you just dont deserve to win. A lot of people dont like this because I think I lot of people dont know when to go for it and sometimes do it incorrectly.

Loam - While not always good, in the matches that it is good it's insane. When they draw a lot of non basics than you can dredge back your wastelands and shut someone out of the game. To me the decision between this and crucible is a no brainer. You can keep bringing this back against counter spells and if you get a second wasteland you dont even have to bring it back every turn. Plus being able to bring lands dropped form mox back or a Dark Depths that die is very good.

Wish - While wish is a bit clunky I think that it is well worth the sacrifice. Being able to grab a combo piece and shoot out a 20/20 is awesome. Plus this gives you mainboard answers to Iona being they normally name white and answers to Progenitus because you can just grab a phyrexian metamorph. Plus the ability to grab a goyf or wasteland when you need it is awesome. I really liked the versitilty, though I think the wish board should be changed up a little. One last thing about wish is that I felt like if I got paired up against dredge every round than I would be very happy. With the list I had in richmond I played against dredge in some side games and just couldn t lose.

Elspeth - I think having an elspeth in the SB would be good. It just smashes blue based control decks. I do think it is a tab bit narrow to have in the main deck.

Hymn and/or thoughtseize - I am a big fan of thoughtseize. I was never upset drawing thoughtseize because there were always cards I wanted to take and when you take what you want you know you can play whatever kind of game their hand is weak to. I think that while hymn is insanely unfair, now is just not the time for it being all theseblue decks that are dominating have so much card advantage that taking 2 random cards just isnt as good as getting the information of their hand and taking exactly what you know you need to play around.

Mental Misstep - Completely insane, makes thoughtseize sweet, stops swords, just play 4.

Sylvan Library / Top - I think right now we need to work more on progressing the game state rather than the way these cards used to work. We used to be able to destroy our opponents resources while depleting ours at the same time and sit behind one of these and just draw threats to kill our opponent. I do love these cards, but I think now is just not their day.

Vindicate - I have always liked being able to kill anything, but I think right now this card is a little slow. Just like top and library are, this used to be good because you could kill whatever your opponent was able to get through after you destroyed their entire hand. But now that the card advantage these blue decks have is so insane than I think it just a little better to have a hexmage out or just playany sort of threat rather than killing one after they play it.

All in all I think the better version of these decks have Mox, no GSZ, Hexdepths, a loam or two, and while I like wish I think that experimenting with and without it is good. I think what we need to start working on is if our lists are going to resemble the deck from the SCG opens, or one from the Modo champs with Hymns and a little slower. While I'm not a big fan of hymn and top right now, I think that version of the deck is also very good as you can play a little bit slower, disrupt them more, and eventually get think with a knight or a 20/20. SB's will obviously change depending on the meta, but the two list I think we need to work on are these
Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage

Instants
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Legendary Snow Lands
1 Dark Depths


Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Vampire Hexmage

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
4 Scrubland
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Legendary Snow Lands
3 Dark Depths


I know I said that Hymn and the card selection are not strong right now, but that is in a deck that works on a much faster basis. The wish version should not have these as they are putting on a much faster clock, wish acts as their card selection, and thoughtseize is the little bit of disruption they need being they're faster. And the opposite in the non-wish build. The hymns give a greater amount of disruption, the tops and library give you the little bit slower anvantage you need, and being you slow it up a little you can close games out with a knight or a 20/20 more consistantly, but you lose the speed goyfs and wishes give you.

Just tell me what you guys think of this, if you disagree with any points, or my opinion on anything else if you would like to hear. And I apologize in advance for any misspellings or errors.

[Borealis]

Good to know about the Chokes vs. NO RUG, rukcus. I figured they would be good, but I haven't tried it. I guess that means vs. RUG I side like this then:

+1 Darkblast, +3 Phy Metamorph, +3 Choke
-2 Elspeth, -3 Mox Diamond, -1 Engineered Explosives

Moxes are an easy card to side out for me in Game 2, and it's probably not necessary to be a turn ahead of them even on the draw with the Metamorph/Choke plan. Choke is nice because it lets us actually profitably Wasteland them a little easier (with removal backup on the Mana Dorks). My reason for not running it before was because it seems like it could be too little too late, i.e. play Choke into their board of 3 lands and a Hierarch, they play Natural Order anyway and still win with their lands tapped down. I guess it's probably stronger on the play, but either way I'll test it out and see it's strengths and weaknesses. The card I'm really excited about in this and all other Hierarch-related matchups is Darkblast. If you find it early on, you're almost guaranteed that they never stick another mana dork. Mmmm, Pure unadulterated evil... :b:

[Krondo9]

I still think the deck needs some spot removal though, for merfolk and zoo. Deed is great, but it is slow and can get countered easily. Spot removal can be very important, like GFFT. I ran 2 before and had great success against zoo and Merfolk. Choke is ok but if they have a vial out they can potentially just play around it. In addition,extra spot removal is important in the mirror, especially when all blue decks (bant aggro) have submerge, which is a beating.

[Gvaelbur]

I try the next build for the last mounth, my meta is more agro, but I can meet a lot of different control and combo decks, so I try to build more universal sideboard:

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate

3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezava's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

Side:

2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Extirpate
2 E. Tutor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ethrsworn Canonist
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt/COP:Red (depends on players on tournament)

For the beggining I test standart Nelson's list, but in local tournament I have a lot of mirrors and maverick deck, also burns and goblins were at least 2-3 decks of each types in tournament, so I try to add anti agro component like crusaders, they are anblockable in GWx decks and make a fast clock with other. I don't think that this list optimal for big event, so I want to hear your advices.

[sdematt]

Ran against Stoneblade for a few hours tonight. I hate their card advantage.

But, suffice to say, I only lost one game where I landed Chains. Every other game where I landed it, I won. Other games where I didn't land it, I was disfavoured. SoLaS is such a beating against them.

-Matt

[hungryboi]

I wanted to discuss Vindicate in this deck. How many times have people felt like it is too slow and costly? It's slow against aggro. Against control, it really isn't good since opponents typically only play threats when they can back it up with counters. The times that Vindicate is decent are the rare land screw scenarios. Even then, if you're going to landscrew someone, you better have a fast clock - which Rock isn't known for. So which matchups does Vindicate improve?

What I'm proposing is replacing Vindicate with Mental Misstep. Here is why:

1. We don't run that many creatures and swords can ruin our day. Protect the bodies.
2. We have a lot of 2CC stuff. What counters 2 cc?...Spell Snare. What counters Spell Snare?...Mental Mistep.
3. Mental Misstep would improve our aggro matchup which I know many Rock builds are not particularly strong in.

[publius_aelius]

Thanks to damion, I've built a deck similar to his. The deck went 4:0 at a MTGO daily couple of days ago:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2829976

Main Deck

60 cards

4 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 creatures

1 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 other spells


Sideboard
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Badlands
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Damnation
3 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wrath of God

Round 1 (vs ZOO) was kind of fishy. In all of the other matches (UB Merfolk, UWR stoneforge and UW stoneforge) the opponents were swept aside.

I think the deck is brutal vs blue based control decks. Alas, it has defficiencies vs aggro decks. My thoughts are that mystic package is better suited for uw than for bwg. Before, we had enough high quality 2cc drops. Now there's an abundance of them.

Junk should be oriented on mana denial, hand rape and midrange creature kill.
With mystics, we can't activate wasteland on turn 1 and two because it slows us down.

We must choose between casting hymn or mystic on turn 2, and that's a painful choice. On the other hand, if we don't play hymns, we get crushed by storm combo.

Kotr and goyf are better than batterskull. So why are we wasting our turns on it?

I mean, the deck is good and stoneforge is a monster, but it doesn't have a rockish/junkish flavour.

[CaBaaL]

I liked the idea of trying to get the deck 2for1 and srew their card advantage.
the deck I have in mind goes like this:
24 lands (the standar selection)

15 creatures:
3-4 goyfs
3-4 hexmages (need testing for this)
4 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant

4 mox diamond (why everyone playes only 3?)

4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 hymn to turach

4 swords to plowshares
1 sylvan library
2 life from the loam

2 vindicate

so it will be a hidrid 2for1 engine (to gain tempo) play as regular agro (knights+goyfs) have some card advantage with bobs and sylvan library+loam and finaly combo with depths

I haven't tested yet and maybe i will replace vindicates (and find 2 more spots) for mental missteps

[CaBaaL]

I liked the idea of trying to get the deck 2for1 and screw their card advantage.
the deck I have in mind goes like this:
24 lands (the standar selection)

15 creatures:
3-4 goyfs
3-4 hexmages (need testing for this)
4 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant

4 mox diamond (why everyone play only 3?)

4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 hymn to turach

4 swords to plowshares
1 sylvan library
2 life from the loam

2 vindicate

so it will be a hidrid 2for1 engine (to gain tempo) play as regular agro (knights+goyfs) have some card advantage with bobs and sylvan library+loam and finaly combo with depths

I haven't tested yet and maybe i will replace vindicates (and find 2 more spots) for mental missteps

[AggroSteve]

the reason for many people to run only 3 mox diamonds is that it is almost a dead draw later on, that is why, and initially the deck did not run any or only a 1-drop of loam, so it was a bit of card-disadvantage

in your list CaBaal i think you are way to dependant on the first turn mox, and having only 4 1cmc spells just asks for misstep to counter your swords, though i have to say the idea of 2for1-ing the opponent all the time seems good as idea, but hexmage actually is no 2for1^^, and thoughtseize is so much more powerfull than gerrards verdict (i will be testing the verdicts in the sideboard as a 4-off though, against burn, zoo, and combo, will tell you how it worked when i finally get to test it)
also even if loam+library has insane synergy i still prefer divining top over library, as it is one of our best turn 1 plays if we have no mox and gives you a bit more control when using fetches and knights ability

i for my part was thinking of going to 4 moxes as well as i really love the speedboost, and with 2 loams in the list (thinking of going down to 1, have to try both) seems quite acceptable with 4 moxes, and with top and loam i can easily dredge the dead draws away for more business, i really love dredging crap or excess lands away^^

hope my thoughts reached you.... because english is not my first language and i often have concerns on how well my english is understood

[sdematt]

Your English is just fine :P

Edit: Post #1337! Woot!

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

another thought i had lately, what do you guys think about liliana of the veil?, wouldn't she be quite powerfull, as she would have an awesome interaction with loam, and excess lands in your hand, plus she would be a MD-answer to emrakul and maybe even progenitus (if opponent does not have any other creature on board)

so what are your thoughts?

thx Matt, thats quite a relieve as often it feels strange and sounds strange when i read a post i have previously written^^ thank god if it's just my immagination^^

[Borealis]

Cool deck results, Publius. The online decks always have a nice variance in flavor to combat the current meta. It's clear that your Junk build is designed to fight all those blue decks that I'm sure are quite popular online, and it looks like it worked well! I especially like the Damnations in the SB, not a lot of people would see that coming at my local meta. I also applaud the use of Red to fight the Blue decks (Artifact Mutation and REB), seems like it would be much more proactive than, say, playing Choke against them. The only issue I could see with that would be the fragility of only having one Red source (Badlands), since a lot of Stoneforge decks and Control decks (and Merfolks) are running Wasteland as well. Losing your Badlands with a Handful of Red Blasts would suck pretty hard. Still, very innovative. The 8 dual lands I take it is a nod to how bad the MTGO shuffler can act up sometimes? I've still never played a single game of Magic Online...

CaBaal, also an interesting list. I might still prefer a couple/few thoughtseize over all those Verdicts, and maybe a 2nd Top source since you're still on the Depths plan, but otherwise sounds about right. On running 4x Mox Diamond, that is a valid question, but I think the reasoning is that it becomes too saturated and you increase the chances even more of having multiples in your opening hand. I would definitely try it out though, maybe you're onto something. If you run 4x moxes, how many Depths would you run?

On Vindicate: I'm still running 2 and I don't have any issues with it at all being too slow. I also have an Engineered Explosives in the place of the 3rd Vindicate to deal with Fast Aggro decks, and the 3 Pernicious Deeds out of the SB should keep most of those decks well at bay in games 2 and 3. Vindicate is a bit expensive, but being able to hit anything is very valuable, beyond just hitting their lands. Hitting artifacts, planeswalkers, and other random problem permanents is huge. How else do you deal with Jace and Batterskull once they hit play? I'm running 24 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds, so paying 3 mana in the midgame is not terrible. Against Blue card advantage decks it might come out for Choke, but against most other decks it's one of the best cards to draw in the lategame. Mental Misstep is nice when you're on Depths, but it is nearly useless after the first few turns.

[KobeBryan]

Ran against Stoneblade for a few hours tonight. I hate their card advantage.

But, suffice to say, I only lost one game where I landed Chains. Every other game where I landed it, I won. Other games where I didn't land it, I was disfavoured. SoLaS is such a beating against them.

-Matt

So, do you have a consensus as to run this card or not?

[damionblackgear]

Congrats publius_aelius,

What did you like about it? What didn't you? What happened against Zoo to make it fishy? A different way to look at it http://4-of.com/#deck?deckid=51700

[sdematt]

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

so you would run chains MD even if you aren't sure what type of deck you are facing?

[sdematt]

Yes. I hear lots of decks run Brainstorms.

-Matt

[useL]

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

Can you give me a list of your current deck with Chains? Thinking of getting two after B/R shows what to play =)

[useL]

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

Can you give me a list of your current deck with Chains? Thinking of getting two after B/R shows what to play =)

[sdematt]

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress

3 Vindicate (could be 2 Vindicate, 1 Pulse; or 2 Vindicate, and 1 extra Chains)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

----BOARD--- (in progress)

3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip


So far, it's been doing alright, I have to say.

-Matt

[berry]

Hola Compadres.

So, after an unsuccessful GP Trial today I have a few thoughts.

I lost to Bant Aggro, NO RUG and BW DeadGuy.

I lost to Sylvan Library, Jace and Quadruple Vindicate/Bitterblossom.

I lost to Card Advantage.

Granted, because of some failed attempts to find Vindicates i only played 1 + 1 Pulse, but these card advantage-cards, or problem permanents, are what I couldn't handle.

All I wanted was Chains. Truly.

I played JunkDepths, it looked kind of like this:

24 lands (2 Dark Depths)

4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Bob
3 Hexmage

3 Mox Diamond
1 Top
1 Vindicate
1 Pulse
1 Elspeth
4 Swords
2 Loam
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

I wanted SFM. I wanted Jitte and Swords (I'm thinking Body and Mind, Zoo and Jace).

I'm not sure about Chains main, but I WILL have some in my board in Amsterdam, at least 2-3.

-2 Loam
-3 Hexmage
-1 Land total
-1 Pulse

+1 Vindicate
+4 SFM
+1 Jitte
+1 Sword of Body and Mind

Thoughts about a way to handle the CA-permanents (Jace, Sylvan, BB, etc)?

Thoughts on this SFM-package?

[AggroSteve]

vindicate!?

there is a reason i still want to stick with at least 3 of them

on the SFM-package: why no batterskull, in the merfolk matchup it is bonkers, actually in lots of matchups where the opponent is low on removal it is quite good

on Sword of Body and Mind, i would prefer Sword of Feast and Famine, but that might just be personal preference do to meta-difference
actually i think the swords for all the different colours are made exactly for that purpose, to adapt your list better to your meta, and actually i would allways like to have an addictional sword in the sideboard, if running the SFM-package, just to adapt to decks outside of the MD-Sword-effectiveness


also i think running a 1-off jitte in the SFM-package is obligatory, even more than a batterskull, i would even prefer a 2nd sword of X and Y before a Batterskull, as it might be a blowout if you fetch for batterskull and opponent kills your mystic, but that probably would just be personal preference

Berry, i would like to know your expieriences with elspeth though, as i have seen her as a 1-off in your list
why is she in there (even if allready running hexmage-combo), what decks does she run best against, and in what matchups did you find her of good use, and in what matchups did you side her out (outside of combo, which should be obvious why) ?

just want to get as much info on her as i am thinking of switching hexmages for her as a 2 off, to try which one could be stronger, and more suited for my playstyle

[KobeBryan]

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 volrath's stronghold
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 terravore

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 mental missteps

3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull



I got spanked by many decks, including an esperblade, and a obliterator eva green deck. Tested Chains, but it was rather disappointing. I took out 1 misstep and 1 terravore for the 2 chains. But i did put in 4 mental missteps, which I don't know whether its good or not. So this is the deck..any suggestions?

[sdematt]

Explain why Chains was awful to you. What did you play against? What was the board state? What were you doing? Don't dismiss the card because it was "awful." The card is bad against decks that don't play Brainstorm, Jace, Visions. Very simple. It sucks against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, etc. It's just there to keep the card advantage of NO RUG and Stoneblade in check.

But, this could all change if MM is banned. I don't think it should be banned, but if it is, Stoneblade isn't a deck anymore. At least, not a great one. Discard becomes super relevant, but that also means Chains becomes much less relevant if Stoneblade declines. Merfolk gets to come back, and we're back to post-Survival again.

I think the better play is for Wizards to unban Mystical Tutor. Simple enough. The card can't be bonkers in a format with MM, done deal. Overload on 1's and profit.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Explain why Chains was awful to you. What did you play against? What was the board state? What were you doing? Don't dismiss the card because it was "awful." The card is bad against decks that don't play Brainstorm, Jace, Visions. Very simple. It sucks against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, etc. It's just there to keep the card advantage of NO RUG and Stoneblade in check.

But, this could all change if MM is banned. I don't think it should be banned, but if it is, Stoneblade isn't a deck anymore. At least, not a great one. Discard becomes super relevant, but that also means Chains becomes much less relevant if Stoneblade declines. Merfolk gets to come back, and we're back to post-Survival again.

I think the better play is for Wizards to unban Mystical Tutor. Simple enough. The card can't be bonkers in a format with MM, done deal. Overload on 1's and profit.

-Matt

When I tested Chains, I played against Esperblade and a eva green running arena instead of bob, (who knows why).

Against Esper, the guy just didnt' use brainstorm and threw the brainstorm away with FOW. With jace, he just fatesealed me instead. Couldnt find answers to stop his jace.

Against the eva green with arena, he was still in top deck mode basically. It did stop his amazing card advantage with arena, but that deck has some really good topdecks over the rock. In a long drawn out battle, he won because I couldn't find my answers to stop two obliterators and 2 goyfs. I only had a maze out and a goyf. He basically out "threat" me.

From my standpoint, the rock is a very slow deck compared to some of these other decks out there.

[sdematt]

So, you're wondering why you lost with Chains when you were, a) Dead on board against a deck playing Dark Confidant-get-around-Chains effects, b) dead on board against a Jace deck?

I'm not saying your results are skewed, but they're skewed. Sure, he pitched Brainstorm to Force. That means he didn't get to Brainstorm. How many games did you run? 5? 10? 15? I ran the card for at least 10 hours of testing, and it runs well. Sure, you won't have the nuts all the time. I've lost with Chains on board, since I drew land-land-land-land-Thoughtseize. It happens. But, other times, I've baited with Confidant and run out Chains. Or, he had 2 Visions about to come off and I forced through a Chains right before double Visions crack.

Chains is usually not a turn-2 play, unless you think you can get it, or you have something better to play on Turn 3 (like say, Top + confidant). Usually, I soften them up with discard, or attempt to play Top/SFM, then drop Chains. They usually haven't Brainstormed yet (good players save their Brainstorms, most of the people I know aren't BS'ing the end of Turn 1).

The argument at the tournament today was they can just aim Visions at you instead. My response was: fuckin' eh. Digging 3 cards deep seems fine to me. Unless you have the nut hand and want to keep EVERY card, it seems fine, even if you have to discard. I can't see myself caring, since they didn't get to dig, and I did, even if there wasn't a ton of value to it. I either cleared chaff, or get to look at new cards. Woot?

I mean, if I continue to run into decks where the card isn't useful, I'll board it. If I don't see any SFM/NO RUG in my meta, I'll put it in my binder. But, if you're running into a field full of SFM based decks (with Jace, BS, Visions) then the card is very good at controlling the amount of card advantage and quality their receive. Discard doesn't cut it when they just fill their hand back up.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

So, you're wondering why you lost with Chains when you were, a) Dead on board against a deck playing Dark Confidant-get-around-Chains effects, b) dead on board against a Jace deck?

I'm not saying your results are skewed, but they're skewed. Sure, he pitched Brainstorm to Force. That means he didn't get to Brainstorm. How many games did you run? 5? 10? 15? I ran the card for at least 10 hours of testing, and it runs well. Sure, you won't have the nuts all the time. I've lost with Chains on board, since I drew land-land-land-land-Thoughtseize. It happens. But, other times, I've baited with Confidant and run out Chains. Or, he had 2 Visions about to come off and I forced through a Chains right before double Visions crack.

Chains is usually not a turn-2 play, unless you think you can get it, or you have something better to play on Turn 3 (like say, Top + confidant). Usually, I soften them up with discard, or attempt to play Top/SFM, then drop Chains. They usually haven't Brainstormed yet (good players save their Brainstorms, most of the people I know aren't BS'ing the end of Turn 1).

The argument at the tournament today was they can just aim Visions at you instead. My response was: fuckin' eh. Digging 3 cards deep seems fine to me. Unless you have the nut hand and want to keep EVERY card, it seems fine, even if you have to discard. I can't see myself caring, since they didn't get to dig, and I did, even if there wasn't a ton of value to it. I either cleared chaff, or get to look at new cards. Woot?

I mean, if I continue to run into decks where the card isn't useful, I'll board it. If I don't see any SFM/NO RUG in my meta, I'll put it in my binder. But, if you're running into a field full of SFM based decks (with Jace, BS, Visions) then the card is very good at controlling the amount of card advantage and quality their receive. Discard doesn't cut it when they just fill their hand back up.

-Matt

You are right. I didn't think it thoroughly. Didn't see the subtle effects of the card. But to be honest, chains is a 2 of in the deck.

How do you feel about MM in Rock?

[damionblackgear]

Side not on Chains - don't play alongside library. If you're going to play both (please don't) NEVER activate the library.

-----Edited on-----

So, I'm writting this while Watching Machete... If you've never seen the movie, I'll put it like this. Most randomly awkward movie that's amazineg. I'm gonna put it alongside The Ghosts of Mars. Don't think there's anything else like it. PS. if you've never seen the Ghost of Mars, I like to call it the Random Screaming movie. Machete is Random Explosion, gunfight movie that ends with Matchete riding away on a bike while making out with Jessica Alba... Don't worry, this whole thing is random. And to anyone who's match I mess up, I'm sorry. I'm blaming the movie. Oh, and if you don't know Machete, he's the Mexican guy (cause he's always playing a mexican guy in the movies, he may actually be from somewhere else... don't care enough to wiki him... or his real name) who has a tattoo of a woman on his chest (Desporado), is in the Mexican Drug Cartel enforcer (Preditors), and leads the Mayans (Son's of Anarchy). About somewhere between round 4 and 5 Preditors took precidence... Michete finished but we're still watching him.

OK, On to Magic stuff.
Round 1 vs ANT

Game 1 - He opens off with a Duress into Thoughtseize and starts sculpting. Turn 2 I drop Bob and eventually find a Greens Sun Zenith, which goes to get Pridemage over knight - pridemage can cause a win if they play out of order | LED--> non-tutor-->Pridemage the LED. He digs a little more and still hasn't gone off. I'm thinking it's probably because I've only got a Bob and a Pridemage on the field. Bob flips thoughtseize which shows me Tutor, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and 2 lands. I take the tutor and his deck proceeds to continue udmping on him.

Game 2. I turn 1 a Bob and turn 3 Teeg. He doesn't have much else to do as he's missing his second black source to use to 3 tutor that have ben drawn that game.

Probability happens and this is about as pretty as the Floyd Maywether fight last night. Nothing really to learn from it except screw is still a problem.

Round 2 vs Fish

Game 1 - I play top into Bob which gets forced. Bob was bait for the for the Mystic who lands and turns into Batterskull quickly. Batterskull recovers me from 7 life to 20 before he scoops (obviously friends joined in and became more as the game went longer).

Game 2 - I keep a hand that has potential for Llawan to come down... I just need to get to the blue source (GSZ or Mox). My T2 topdeck is a GSZ, I play it (before I drop my land... yup, did that) into a daze. Luckily I get the mox. I try to bait out counters to ensure that I land the Llawan (Pridemage to hit the vial@3). He lets them hit Play and forces the Llawan. At this point he's only got a 4/4 Commander. I topdeck the Maze (lucky) into Mystic. Mystic again turns into BS and recovers me from 2 life. Oh, there was a Jitte somewhere in there.

Yeah, we knew Batterskull was good against Merfolk. As a plan B, Llawan does well enough. ironically I play tihs person later (EPIC FORESHADOWING).

Round 3 vs Team America

Game 1 - I start off with top into Bob and ride it out to victory. I'm super confused as to what he's playing since he says he's color screwed and I've only seen Blue and Green. On top of that he's down to 3 lands ...So, I don't know if he's got Natural order, Mystics, Rug, Band, Old school Thresh (I mean real old school), or anything. So sideboarding is a little difficult.

Game 2 - Again with the Lands (although, knight is also helping this time around). Knight, Bob, Pridemage, and Mystic all join forces and create Voltron to win the day vs... pretty much nothing.

It's always fun destroying lands but there is a point were you have to win the game. That's why there are only 3 Wastelands. There are times were I would love to completely destroy their manabase but I'd rather just win the game.

round 4 vs Dredge

Game 1 - he Mulls to 5 and goes nuts on turn 2. By Nuts I mean he blows his load pitching everything to the yard. I pray for the bog to be on top, since I'played first. ANSWERED. Sometimes it's better to be lucky that good. To be fair, I had pulse knight in hand... Just needed two turns to get them active. Would have gone Knight into pulse but it would still have worked... If I had the time.

Game 2 - He mulls to 5 again. I turn 2 a Knight... Start doing all kinds of crazy things like Playing mystic to get BS (man these plays are kind of repetitive). He scoops at that point as he gives me enough credit to know that I can just bounce the BS to off the token in case of bridge.

So, Mulls to 5 are also great ways to test a deck. I would love to cover up for at but, I have no intentions of lying to you about how the tournament went... You... Lucky tournament.

Round 5 vs Imperial Painter

I offered the draw but he declines. I explain to the table next to be about how badgering someone to draw is against the rules. My opponent asked me if I'd think any less of him if he didn't accept... I offer him a hug... there was a look on his face... that look. At this point, I know he's probably going to want my head on a stick after this...

Game 1 - He plays Turn 1 recuriter. I play a top... he plays painers, I play swords. Then I thoughtseize him. After that it's just a matter of bob pretty much going to town on him.

Game 2 - Turn 1 Grindstone. Turn 2 Painter (off 2 land). he pyro's my swords (only one) when I try to catch him the next turn. I waited since, if he didn't have the land, he'd have to tap out to activate the Grindstone. Didn't work out so well... Next game...

Game 3 - I keep thoughtseize, Birds, Basic swamp (if you didn't know, the deck plays Moon effects so that's really good to have the bird and basic land) Savannah, Deed, Swords, Green Sun. Leading with the bird, he plays the Grindstone. I thoughtseize and he's got nothing. We play it out to a point that I've swords/Combat damaged 3/4 Painters. I've also Got the Ooze out there just in case he decides to somehow bring them back (Noxious revival is a card). it turns out that being abel to deal with 3 of them is good enough... Especially when you end at 6 life from your own things trying to kill you (Bob).

This was the first loss and I think it's probably one of the only things I didn't want to see again (Don't like having to wonder about random things happening). I know that the ANT player can make it on brakers. I'm a little worried about that but he HAS to win the next round where-as this guy may just be able to draw in next round anyways (secretly inside, I'm hoping he has to play it out. We could've just played for fun and not had the suspense of risking the top 8 slots.

Either way, I offer to give him the hug (I was serious). He again gives me that odd look but decides to refuse the hug... Everyone around tells him that I'm not being the biggest prick... I just am like that. This happens a lot. There are times when you like dealing with poeple, and times when you'd rather not have to deal with them... this was the former.

Round 6 vs Merfolk

Last round of the swiss and I'm matched up against a buddy who doesn't know if he can make it in with a draw... Good 'ol last round opponent for messing up the math. I know I'm in no matter what since I'm the only 15 pointer. So I concede bringing him up. Then I look at the standings and see that he's locked at 13 with a draw... Yup. random loss for the win... I LOST MY PLANESWALKER POINTS... HA. Those things don't matter.

Top 8 vs Bant

Game 1 - I open up with a thoughtseize, he brainstorms and doesn't look to thrilled about the find. He hides some cards and shows me another brainstorm, a Clique and a hierarch as options. I take the hierarch as I have the swords for the Cluque and he can hide whatever he wants. He plays a Goyf the next turn so I swords it and play Bob. he cliques and I pulse it away (seeing Green Sun, Elpeth, Mystic, and Pulse doesn't make that choice very easy. I waste him (drawn from the lost Elspeth) and pretty much just take over at that point.

now the big issue here is that I don't know if he's got Progen or not. So, I err on the side of caution and side in the Llawans. No Chokes since he's got Hierarchs and I saw a Savannah.
Game 2 - Pretty much like game 1 but there are a couple turns where he's at 4 lands (1 arbor) and we're both in top-deck mode. he doesn't draw a Natural Order and I draw an Ooze (With SofI on the feild). Ooze eats a couple creatures but can't get past his freshly drawn Maze. then I draw Elspeth. I make a token and move the Sword. Kind of want 1 of them to deal some damage. Game ends when I draw a mystic to grab BS.

Turns out he doesn't have Natural Order in the list. in fact, the only blue creatures he had were 3 Cliques and a War Monk... Oh well.

Top 4 vs Merfolk (ref Round 2)

Game 1 - He's on the play and starts out with a vial. I play a top and try for Bob on turn 2, that gets forced. he drops a silvergill and swings for 3. On my turn I top and see elspeth... Now my manabase is Forest, Swamp | Hand is Savannah, Scrub, and Bayou. I put the Elspeth on top and drop the Bayou... he plays Regery, and vials in Phantasmal image. Swings. I pulse those 2. Next turn he play Silvergill and Lord of Atlantis. I Pulse the Gills and sword the lord. Last card in hand, Coralhelm hits play. I can't deal with it before he finishes me off.

Game 2 - Bob and Mystic get forced. He's still drawing enough gas to take it on the back of Kira + Sower (who stole 1 of 2 Knights). Llawan was my only out but I was unable to find her. Sometimes, them's the breaks.

-----

Ended in 3rd place and took home a Savannah. didn't watch the finals (Folk vs Loam | Gene's article will be on starcity sometime this week talking about the Loam list he played. I recommend you check it out if you want to see the list he played) Top 4 was 2x Folk, Rock, Loam (No Assualts). Don't actually know what all was in the top 8 (Mind Over Matter combo, Imperial Painter, Bant, and... sorry don't remember)

I still don't know how I feel about the Dismembers but I don't know what else to put there. Path isn't exactly my cup of tea (I hate advancing my opponents plan) and I'm still looking at a posstible alternate to Choke. I'm not sure if it's needed anymore. The cards rediculas but I seem to be able to force most decks into a bottleneck. In, or around a Jace. some people suggested Scryb Ranger as a card against submerge and I think I may try it. Right now, I look at it as 5 cards that are on the block.

[sdematt]

Your report seems pretty good, and it was a nice read!

Regarding Chains, don't activate Sylvan, for the love of God!

Also, that's Danny Trejo in Machete. He's also in Breaking Bad, Heat, and a ton of other stuff. He's also referred to in "Heat" by his last name, Trejo. Just a fun FYI.

If you don't like Path/Dismember, Ghastly Demise is super good. You can actually bring it in against Stoneblade (you can't actually bring Path in against Stoneblade, you just lose at that point).

How was Eternal Witness for you?

I found myself using Vindicate to blow out lands the last little bit, but I'm also playing Hymn (which has the possibility of Sinkholing). I think if you're not on the Hymn plan, Pulse is the way to go.

-Matt

[berry]

@AggroSteve (and others interested):

I'm having trouble fitting a third Vindicate, but I'm pretty sure it's better than the 4th Goyf, tbh.

About the SFM-package, Jitte does not require and explanation, but Sword of Body and Mind might. Like I said, the CA of decks with jace is a problem, another problem with jace is the bounce with counterbackup. A third problem is quick green decks. Then there is NO RUG, they play Jace AND Goyfs. Sword of Body and Mind is my choice simply because of the colors.

Batterskull just feels too slow in the version I'm trying to play. I can see it in the GSZ-version since that is already running a bit slower.

About Elspeth: She is absolutely amazing, but you'd not want more than 1, I think. Everytime i Top'd into her i felt like I was about to win... Sadly, everytime this happened my opponent slammed his Elspeth the turn before and I had to kill it with mine. Not kidding. Two games in a row. But it's helluva strong in matchups where the board position is in a stalemate, think GW maverick, NO RUG, bant aggro, zoo...

What are people's thoughts on the SB in a meta of Zoo/StoneBlade/GW/RUG/Bant mainly?

Givens for me are:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Gravehate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip/Qasali Pridemage
2 More Spot Removal
2-3 Chains

That leaves 1-2 open slots.

Also, @sdematt:

What are your thoughts behind dropping the moxes? Because you skipped Loam? Loam did feel like it never did enough for me, but the moxes still felt strong...

Edit: I also don't get how you can main Chains, do you never fight against non draw-decks? I just don't like dead cards. It feels given in the SB tho.

[AggroSteve]

i had the same thoughts on moxes and loams, moxes are really strong, i am right now testing the full set, seeing how it feels, loam though was often underwhelming, so i cut it to 1, but i necessary i can still put a 2nd one in the sideboard
the card i added instead of loam was the 3rd divining top. the more i played and played i started missing it sooo much with only 2 in the list

i tested elspeth now for a bit, as a 2 off, and meh, she sucked all day, maybe i am just not used to her, but every opponent seems to fear her, and the next few attacks went allways on her resulting mostly in dead elspeths, as i too often had flyers against me and no maze in play think i will remove her again from the list as she does not fit my playstyle at all

@ berry, on your sideboard i would think it looks quite good, but i would definitely choose krosan grip over pridemage as it is way stronger against stoneblade and any deck that runs blue and mystic

[KobeBryan]

@AggroSteve (and others interested):

I'm having trouble fitting a third Vindicate, but I'm pretty sure it's better than the 4th Goyf, tbh.

About the SFM-package, Jitte does not require and explanation, but Sword of Body and Mind might. Like I said, the CA of decks with jace is a problem, another problem with jace is the bounce with counterbackup. A third problem is quick green decks. Then there is NO RUG, they play Jace AND Goyfs. Sword of Body and Mind is my choice simply because of the colors.

Batterskull just feels too slow in the version I'm trying to play. I can see it in the GSZ-version since that is already running a bit slower.

About Elspeth: She is absolutely amazing, but you'd not want more than 1, I think. Everytime i Top'd into her i felt like I was about to win... Sadly, everytime this happened my opponent slammed his Elspeth the turn before and I had to kill it with mine. Not kidding. Two games in a row. But it's helluva strong in matchups where the board position is in a stalemate, think GW maverick, NO RUG, bant aggro, zoo...

What are people's thoughts on the SB in a meta of Zoo/StoneBlade/GW/RUG/Bant mainly?

Givens for me are:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Gravehate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip/Qasali Pridemage
2 More Spot Removal
2-3 Chains

That leaves 1-2 open slots.

Also, @sdematt:

What are your thoughts behind dropping the moxes? Because you skipped Loam? Loam did feel like it never did enough for me, but the moxes still felt strong...

Edit: I also don't get how you can main Chains, do you never fight against non draw-decks? I just don't like dead cards. It feels given in the SB tho.

my board looks exactly the same. I add in 1 nulls, 1 enlightened tutor, take out a metamorph and a dueling grounds to fight zoo..

[berry]

Monster's Den! Our place in Stockholm is called Dragon's Lair! ;)

Glad to see people are getting to a general consensus on how to board (in the more common main-builds)! I think this is neccessary.

AggroSteve: Elspeth is mostly to get past stalemates, not to get up from behind (although it can work if they are beating you with just 1 dude, infinity blockers is good!). Also, I didn't fight many flyers (people are going red in StoneBlade here to fight folks, therefore cutting spellstutters).

@SB: The last spot is OBVIOUSLY a Tower of the Magistrate. Card is bonkers. Also, ofc Krosan Grip is better, silly me.

What kind of spot removal do people like? I've seen Path, Go for the Throat, Dismember and Ghastly Demise so far... I think I like Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat most! Thoughts?

[damionblackgear]

Berry? Monster's Den? How'd you know where I was playing?

Matt, Witness was pretty good. Earlier lists had 2 but I cut it down to 1 because I had a Stronghold. It wasn't something that was strong enough for 2 but the single is just fine. There are a lot of times that Witness gets the card you need. Sometimes it just sits there. I like it but, it'll probably be the next cut from the main. Just haven't seen anything that's really going to beat it out.

I'm still looking at for alternatives to dismember (which has done it's job so until I find something else will remain). The reason I don't like path is because it still advances the draws of your opponent. I'm still not a fan of Demise since it can't kill bob and can be outdone by random Graveyard removal.

[Derayler]

Isn't smother the best non-swords removal? Kills verything but tombstalker.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Berry? Monster's Den? How'd you know where I was playing?


So you lose to other people playing merfolk but never me. Screw you ian.

[damionblackgear]

<3 you Phoenix Ignition. I don't normally lose to Folk. To be fair, I don't normally lose to it without me making a mistake. To be fair to the deck. I'm 0-X against Merfolk on the when they mull to 5 and I open with a Thoughtseize. Haven't figured that out yet either.

Derayler, It kills 3 or less. SO, sower, Reanimator targets and other things are also left out. I'll give it a shot in testing. Of those, sower and Jin are probably the only 2 that I can think of caring about. The cost is the only thing that makes me wonder about it.

[muscleb]

I think Vindicate is at its best in lists with 4 Goyf and Moxes. Simply because getting ahead on board and then blowing up their lands is really awesome. I think in more slower Rock decks(like Stoneforge Mystic) and/or lists without moxes, Vindicate becomes less interesting simply because your attackplan is that much slower. I those cases I think Maelstrom Pulse is better.

Personally I cannot afford to buy cards right now, and I do not have any Moxes, so I am going with 3 Missteps in that slot to add to the disruption(also without adding more mana constraints to the deck).

I like the sideboard plan listed above, mine contains 2 duress for combo as well. Also pack Tower of the Magistrate, it's a beast against opposing Stoneforge strategies.

About the spotremoval discussion, any love for Putrefy? The instant artifact destruction is quite relevant often.

[berry]

Damion: The dude who deleted his post mentioned it. If this is sensitive information, I'll delete mine, too. Just thought the closeness in names was funny.

Smother has it's weaknesses, but it still feels stronger than Ghastly Demise actually... ALOT of decks will bring in their relics and crypts against us, rendering Demise useless. Putrefy is cute but way too expensive, in my eyes. Yet to find the perfect card... Dismembers life-drawback hurts in a deck running Bob, Thoughtseize and no lifegain.

Vindicate is still my choice over pulse for the simple reason that I CAN hit lands, not that I often will. This might be wrong, especially since I just cut Loams.

[zrbrt]

I just mentioned that you tickled me at the MD. Awkward. (not really I liked it).

[AggroSteve]

@berry reguarding the spotremoval discussion i would definitely go with GftT over Smother, even though i love smother way more^^ simply due to the fact that it can hit reanimators creatures where smother just sits in your hand (well at least until end-of-turn-step against jin-gitaxas) and does nothing

that being said, IMO Go for the Throat actually hits more relevant creatures than smother, well at least if your meta is not infestet with some decks called affinity, or maybe MUD :D, and against both of them smother is not the best choice either

on elspeth, you might be right that i used her in the wrong way, well i still had no expierience with her, so its understandable
but either way as i prefer the landscrewplan with repeated wasteland and vindicate i am often stuck on 3 mana, a big knight that either stalls opponent on his own thx to maze of ith and being biiiigg or just riding him to victory

i think elspeth sadly just doesn't fit my playstyle

on the vindicate matter mucleb might have a point there, that vindicate gets much stronger in a moxbuild, though i have to add that i ran a nonmoxbuild for a long time and had completely no issues with vindicate being to slow
its versatility just pays of, but he might be right with pulse being the stronger choice for nonmoxbuilds
if i would switch back to a nonmox build i will have to test this

[sdematt]

@ Berry

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff

This is what I'm running right now. You've got 4 answers to Progenitus, 4 pieces of Gravehate, 4 things against Aggro, another 5 slots against Stoneblade (pretty sure you'd bring in Demise), etc.

My meta consists of 50% Stoneblade, for sure. I run into it all the time. I'm one of two players who don't regularly play Blue, and thereby, Brainstorm. The card is crazy good in my meta (Chains of Mephistopheles, for those who aren't following this train of thought).

I've dropped the Moxes for a few reasons: 1) I've packed in more discard to help fight Stoneblade, 2) You curve so nicely anyway, I'm doing solid things on all my turns, the 1-turn boost then possible stall isn't always worth it to me, 3) I've dropped Loam, so Moxen are less awesome now. Again, I'm running 3 basics and I'll be on the disruption plan in turns 1-3, if possible. Sure, Turn 1 SFM is great, but so is T2 SFM after baiting a counterspell with Thoughtseize.

Regarding Qasali, he's great if you're running GSZ, but Grip in addition to Qasali is the right call. One gets countered/dodged, one doesn't.

Elspeth is a great addition, but I literally have 0 slots for her with Chains main. If I wasn't running Chains main, she'd be a 1-2 of.

@ Choice of removal

It really depends what you want. STP is obviously the best, but the second can be more interesting.

Path: Super greasy, but accels them. Terrible against SFM, and at times, Merfolk. MM makes it worse.
Ghastly Demise: Doesn't kill Dark Confidant or Tombstalker, but handles everything else. Super decent, easy to cast, no land or life drawbacks. Gets around Iona on White.
Dismember: Easy to cast, but costs you life. You're usually not having a ton of life to spare, especially with Confidant though. Handles any creature except Iona, Sphinx, Grave Titan, etc. if that's relevant.
Smother: Kills everything except anything in Reanimator or Tombstalker.
Go for the Throat: Doesn't kill Factory...very decent card.
Putrefy: Instant speed, dodges Iona, doesn't kill Spinx, and kills artifacts. VERY good, but costs 3. I used to play 1-of maindeck, and it was good.

@ Vindicate

Vindicate is still a real card in this format. You have Wastelands, Hymns, and creature removal. Vindicate also hits Sylvan Library, which is really important to NO Rug, hits Jace, hits a random manlands, and kills Equipment. I still use it on lands in certain matchups, but I agree, a 3-drop is better with Moxes, but it isn't bad without. It's still really relevant in removal-terms.

If you're not playing Hymn and you never play against land light matches like NO RUG, then run Pulse, or run 2 Pulse 1 Vindicate, or whatever. I don't care, just play which one you like, it honestly doesn't matter. If you're more all in on white with SFM, I'd say run Vindicate just for mana consistency.

@ Ghastly Demise

Sure they'll bring their removal in, but it's not like you've taken out all of your Swords. You're basically just doubling up. They may have nuked your Graveyard before, or they haven't yet. Maybe they brought stuff in, maybe they didn't. The only problem is the possibly misstep, but with all your discard, they've probably either used most of them up or discarded it. Personally, I like having to only keep 1 mana open instead of 2, especially when Daze is a real card again. It's not super relevant, but you know what I mean.

Thanks for reading a really long post.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Double post

[KobeBryan]

@ Berry

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff

This is what I'm running right now. You've got 4 answers to Progenitus, 4 pieces of Gravehate, 4 things against Aggro, another 5 slots against Stoneblade (pretty sure you'd bring in Demise), etc.

My meta consists of 50% Stoneblade, for sure. I run into it all the time. I'm one of two players who don't regularly play Blue, and thereby, Brainstorm. The card is crazy good in my meta (Chains of Mephistopheles, for those who aren't following this train of thought).

I've dropped the Moxes for a few reasons: 1) I've packed in more discard to help fight Stoneblade, 2) You curve so nicely anyway, I'm doing solid things on all my turns, the 1-turn boost then possible stall isn't always worth it to me, 3) I've dropped Loam, so Moxen are less awesome now. Again, I'm running 3 basics and I'll be on the disruption plan in turns 1-3, if possible. Sure, Turn 1 SFM is great, but so is T2 SFM after baiting a counterspell with Thoughtseize.

Regarding Qasali, he's great if you're running GSZ, but Grip in addition to Qasali is the right call. One gets countered/dodged, one doesn't.

Elspeth is a great addition, but I literally have 0 slots for her with Chains main. If I wasn't running Chains main, she'd be a 1-2 of.

@ Choice of removal

It really depends what you want. STP is obviously the best, but the second can be more interesting.

Path: Super greasy, but accels them. Terrible against SFM, and at times, Merfolk. MM makes it worse.
Ghastly Demise: Doesn't kill Dark Confidant or Tombstalker, but handles everything else. Super decent, easy to cast, no land or life drawbacks. Gets around Iona on White.
Dismember: Easy to cast, but costs you life. You're usually not having a ton of life to spare, especially with Confidant though. Handles any creature except Iona, Sphinx, Grave Titan, etc. if that's relevant.
Smother: Kills everything except anything in Reanimator or Tombstalker.
Go for the Throat: Doesn't kill Factory...very decent card.
Putrefy: Instant speed, dodges Iona, doesn't kill Spinx, and kills artifacts. VERY good, but costs 3. I used to play 1-of maindeck, and it was good.

@ Vindicate

Vindicate is still a real card in this format. You have Wastelands, Hymns, and creature removal. Vindicate also hits Sylvan Library, which is really important to NO Rug, hits Jace, hits a random manlands, and kills Equipment. I still use it on lands in certain matchups, but I agree, a 3-drop is better with Moxes, but it isn't bad without. It's still really relevant in removal-terms.

If you're not playing Hymn and you never play against land light matches like NO RUG, then run Pulse, or run 2 Pulse 1 Vindicate, or whatever. I don't care, just play which one you like, it honestly doesn't matter. If you're more all in on white with SFM, I'd say run Vindicate just for mana consistency.

@ Ghastly Demise

Sure they'll bring their removal in, but it's not like you've taken out all of your Swords. You're basically just doubling up. They may have nuked your Graveyard before, or they haven't yet. Maybe they brought stuff in, maybe they didn't. The only problem is the possibly misstep, but with all your discard, they've probably either used most of them up or discarded it. Personally, I like having to only keep 1 mana open instead of 2, especially when Daze is a real card again. It's not super relevant, but you know what I mean.

Thanks for reading a really long post.

-Matt

What would you bring in against Combo? or affinity? Pernicious deed is sometimes 1 turn too slow.

[KobeBryan]

@ Berry

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff

This is what I'm running right now. You've got 4 answers to Progenitus, 4 pieces of Gravehate, 4 things against Aggro, another 5 slots against Stoneblade (pretty sure you'd bring in Demise), etc.

My meta consists of 50% Stoneblade, for sure. I run into it all the time. I'm one of two players who don't regularly play Blue, and thereby, Brainstorm. The card is crazy good in my meta (Chains of Mephistopheles, for those who aren't following this train of thought).

I've dropped the Moxes for a few reasons: 1) I've packed in more discard to help fight Stoneblade, 2) You curve so nicely anyway, I'm doing solid things on all my turns, the 1-turn boost then possible stall isn't always worth it to me, 3) I've dropped Loam, so Moxen are less awesome now. Again, I'm running 3 basics and I'll be on the disruption plan in turns 1-3, if possible. Sure, Turn 1 SFM is great, but so is T2 SFM after baiting a counterspell with Thoughtseize.

Regarding Qasali, he's great if you're running GSZ, but Grip in addition to Qasali is the right call. One gets countered/dodged, one doesn't.

Elspeth is a great addition, but I literally have 0 slots for her with Chains main. If I wasn't running Chains main, she'd be a 1-2 of.

@ Choice of removal

It really depends what you want. STP is obviously the best, but the second can be more interesting.

Path: Super greasy, but accels them. Terrible against SFM, and at times, Merfolk. MM makes it worse.
Ghastly Demise: Doesn't kill Dark Confidant or Tombstalker, but handles everything else. Super decent, easy to cast, no land or life drawbacks. Gets around Iona on White.
Dismember: Easy to cast, but costs you life. You're usually not having a ton of life to spare, especially with Confidant though. Handles any creature except Iona, Sphinx, Grave Titan, etc. if that's relevant.
Smother: Kills everything except anything in Reanimator or Tombstalker.
Go for the Throat: Doesn't kill Factory...very decent card.
Putrefy: Instant speed, dodges Iona, doesn't kill Spinx, and kills artifacts. VERY good, but costs 3. I used to play 1-of maindeck, and it was good.

@ Vindicate

Vindicate is still a real card in this format. You have Wastelands, Hymns, and creature removal. Vindicate also hits Sylvan Library, which is really important to NO Rug, hits Jace, hits a random manlands, and kills Equipment. I still use it on lands in certain matchups, but I agree, a 3-drop is better with Moxes, but it isn't bad without. It's still really relevant in removal-terms.

If you're not playing Hymn and you never play against land light matches like NO RUG, then run Pulse, or run 2 Pulse 1 Vindicate, or whatever. I don't care, just play which one you like, it honestly doesn't matter. If you're more all in on white with SFM, I'd say run Vindicate just for mana consistency.

@ Ghastly Demise

Sure they'll bring their removal in, but it's not like you've taken out all of your Swords. You're basically just doubling up. They may have nuked your Graveyard before, or they haven't yet. Maybe they brought stuff in, maybe they didn't. The only problem is the possibly misstep, but with all your discard, they've probably either used most of them up or discarded it. Personally, I like having to only keep 1 mana open instead of 2, especially when Daze is a real card again. It's not super relevant, but you know what I mean.

Thanks for reading a really long post.

-Matt

What would you bring in against Combo? or affinity? Pernicious deed is sometimes 1 turn too slow.

[berry]

Good points, sdematt, although I still would not main Chains. But that might just be personal preference. Also, I'm in love with Elspeth.

I get the thought behind extra discard but I'd rather stick with my moxes. Bait with T1 Bob, follow up with T2 SFM!

Good points on the removal, I agree that Ghastly is still great but I think I'll try smother for now, and then we'll see! Hopefully I got a report from wednesday-tour (20-30 peeps every wednesday).

@SB: Tariff is a great card, but I'm happy with Phyrexian Metamorphes and Chains there, I get your thoughts tho.

[sdematt]

a) I didn't realize that was a deck anymore. 10 pieces of discard and 6 pieces of targeted removal plus 2 Deed found via 3 Tops and 4 Dark Confidants, in theory, seems fine. I had no trouble with the matchup when I played an E. Tutor board understandably, but honestly, that should be fine. Deed shouldn't be a turn too slow with all the removal and discard we're packing.

b) For combo, you bring in Deed, and if you're boarding it, Chains. You obviously take out slow cards like Vindicate and Elspeth. You also bring in Grips. Grips are excellent against combo when you get to 3 mana. You also have 10 discard main, so you should hopefully hold out until you can land a threat. The matchup is much better with GSZ for Teeg, though.

-Matt

[berry]

Question: Why bring in Deed vs Combo? Krosan Grip I get (assuming combo = ANT) because of the Split Second. You think Deed that can go off @ 0 and hoping they cant go off before is strong enough? Might be.

[AggroSteve]

deed would be there for possible emty the warrens tokens as sometimes the combo player will not get a high enough storm count for tendrils but emty the warrens still can win games with a lower stormcount

belcher for example would often go for emty the warrens, as it is their most consistent way of winning, charbelcher itself is just the fastest

i have to admit that deed might be too slow for that purpose though, but you can allways choose to use Engineered Explosives instead, even if deed is way stronger in other matchups

krosan grip is awesome for the casual LED-Kill, or other artifact-based-combo (painter) or artifact-speeded combo



The Source requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Also, spell your words correctly.
-4eak

[damionblackgear]

You also play it to take out any 0cc artifacts they may have played before. A lot of TES/ANT players will drop them as they will be needed later, instead of discarded. There's also the reason of them playing those artifacts out of order. An LED into any other spell should be deeded. It cuts 3 mana and stop them from being able to crack it in response to Infernal Tutor may cause you to with the game.

[useL]

You also play it to take out any 0cc artifacts they may have played before. A lot of TES/ANT players will drop them as they will be needed later, instead of discarded. There's also the reason of them playing those artifacts out of order. An LED into any other spell should be deeded. It cuts 3 mana and stop them from being able to crack it in response to Infernal Tutor may cause you to with the game.

Except if the player knows what he's doing. Plays LED - resolves, plays tutor - dont pass priority, breaks LED, you sit there with your Krosan Grip.

[damionblackgear]

Except if the player knows what he's doing. Plays LED - resolves, plays tutor - dont pass priority, breaks LED, you sit there with your Krosan Grip.

Hence the statement, "There's also the reason of them playing those artifacts out of order." If they play the deck correctly. Grip is useless but Deed can at least hit tokens (if you're lucky enough for them to go for tokens).

You're right though. I did say, "...LED into any other spell should be deeded." I'll rephrase it now to any other non-tutor/wincon spell (Tendrills or Empty the Warrens). That should cover all of the outs to my statement.

[sdematt]

So, who thinks SFM gets the axe tonight?

I'm thinking it'll be either SFM, or Mental Misstep.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

So, who thinks SFM gets the axe tonight?

I'm thinking it'll be either SFM, or Mental Misstep.

-Matt

Neither. I'm betting nothing gets banned tonight.

[mdc1010]

Show and Tell and Mental Misstep.

These are the only two that could or might even should be banned imo.

If wizards doesn't ban anything in Legacy to me that is a nod they want to push Modern more.

[KobeBryan]

Show and Tell and Mental Misstep.

These are the only two that could or might even should be banned imo.

I don't see how misstep SHOULD be banned. It stops a lot of turn 1 plays sure, but that turn 1 play isn't the game winner anyways.

Show and tell...no...its not even warping the format. Look at the recent top 8s. almost none have show and tell in the list.

[damionblackgear]

Missteps gone. The combo debate can begin again. How do we fight it? I'm still boarding out Pride and dignity and in Hope and Prayer.

[KobeBryan]

Missteps gone. The combo debate can begin again. How do we fight it? I'm still boarding out Pride and dignity and in Hope and Prayer.

Time to play GSZ again to get my teegs back into the deck.

[Derayler]

Looks like were back to Hymns and Tops.

[damionblackgear]

Looks like were back to Hymns and Tops.

If you had cut them before, why change back? advancing the deck happens at all times. Give it a shot how it is (with a little more hate on aggro since gobo's and zoo will likely be back in force).

[sdematt]

You heathens left the hallowed ground that were Hymn and Top.

Basically, we go back to our builds pre-Mental Misstep, like I've been running. I think for the next little bit, Stoneblade is still a deck, so Chains may still warrant slots. I'm thinking they'll just pack more Snares/other things to cover it all up and band-aid over the loss of Misstep.

In terms of Combo, definitely GSZ becomes super good again for Teeg. Zoo, Goblins, and Folk also come back, so we'll have to worry about that again. But, we'll still need to run 8-10 discard for combo.

Surgical Extraction becomes really greasy against Reanimator, since it's a free Extirpate without the chance of possibly Misstep. I'll probably run some Extractions and some Extirpates.

SFM stays in our deck, since Misstep never hurt us anyway. That'll certainly help against Aggro. Grips can probably come out, or run less of them (maybe 2, if SFM is still a big thing). But, if Zoo rises, SFM falls.

To be honest, this wasn't an awesome move for us. Thanks Wizards! Way to cover up mistakes in playtesting by using the Banhammer as a design mechanic!


-Matt

[Krondo9]

Nice! Looks like ill be playing this deck again. I think Junk is definitely one of the top decks now with misstep banned. Thoughtseize is suddenly extremely relevant, and with hymn are just such a killer. Our only main problem is against perish, but i still think KOTR, Green Sun, and Goyf are a good reason to play green over deadguy.

[Derayler]

I'm with Matt on this one. We should run the nore traditional build with more discard. I don't think that the depths combo still warrents slots, but IDK for sure. To me it looks like the meta game is gonna be the post survival/pre misstep meta that this deck was doing very well in before. Only difference is that mefolk decks and the like have dismember and various stoneforge decks using batterskull will be much stonger.

[berry]

I'd love to see this Matt-list.

I was just about to go over to an SFM-build, and have been brewing slightly with adding 2 GSZ's in there... This seems ALOT better now, without MM.

Something like:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

This feels really strong to me, thoughts?

[PanderAlexander]

@Sdematt

Sorry I didn't read your message about the post in this thread, I don't check my inbox much. Your inbox is full though.

I agree with everyone thus far, MMS-ban will only help this deck, being able to push through a swords or thoughtseize or SDT again.

[mdc1010]

I don't see how misstep SHOULD be banned. It stops a lot of turn 1 plays sure, but that turn 1 play isn't the game winner anyways.

O really now? :)

Regarding deck construction two things are going to happen. The format is going to speed up greatly again, giving life back into aggro, combo, and we will see a decline in slow decks like bug and stone blade.

This doesn't really change our main deck to much outside of the old debate between traditional, depths, and SFM setups. It should change how you sideboard though.

The most obvious auto include in both main and side is deed. It wrecks aggro, and can still be good against ANT if they drop their pedals and diamonds. I was down to only 1 main due to the decline of aggro. Now I am considering going to 2 in the main and 2 in the side.

[Elminister]

I've been playing classic Rock all this time, even during MM era. I still believe StoneForge Mystic, Green Sun Zenith and all those other cards don't belong in this deck. All these cards do is improve certain match-ups and worsen the other. Classic Rock seems to have, at worse, 50-50 chances against a huge variety of decks.

EDIT: On Deeds, I think 4 Deeds in entire board is pushing it. You generally want to see a single Deed against most decks (the one that's gonna clear their board of early threats). Every further Deed is mostly going to remove a single threat.

[UnsungHero]

Ive been pretty content with this, its a Wish based Hexmage-depths list. Despite being slow at times Ive always enjoyed the flexibility of having a wishboard, Wishing for a relevant creature at a given time gives a variety of options in tight situations. Using Moxen gives this deck some nice opening plays such as Hymm, which can make Tarmogoyf very large if played on turn 2 and may give you some very valuable information based on what they discard. Moxen have also been known to work pretty decently with Life from the Loam (who knew?) as well as allowing to Wish on turn 1 if needed. The grim discovery is great for getting wastelands or Hexmage and Depths combo back from the yard. Watch out for Spell snare, that card can be very annoying against some of this decks key cards.

15 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage

24 Artifact/Instant/ Sorcery
4 Mox Diamond
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Living Wish
2 Life From the Loam
2 Grim Discovery

22 Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth

15 Side/Wishboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kataki, Wars Wage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Pernicious Deed

Love to hear some feedback.

[berry]

Sorry, but why are we repeating what everyone already knows about rock?

Let's discuss Hexmage, SFM, GSZ, traditional and/or mixes and what will work and why in the upcoming MM-less meta, instead.

[Krondo9]

I don't think you can have Stoneforge and Green Sun in the same list and then take out Goyf. I think Green sun is just better than stoneforge in our deck. We can generally handle merfolk pretty well. I never found ooze to be particularly strong, but maybe it will be better now with more aggro decks. I would just run Green Sun and have either 1 or 2 jittes on the main or board.

[damionblackgear]

Is my list just being thought of as fantasy? Or, are you two (berry and krondo9) just refusing to read my posts. I've got a working GSZ and Mystic version up and running pretty well.

Berry, your list looks fine except mana management issues. Hymn requires a lot of black from you. My lists are spread across the last couple pages and your lists isn't too far off (+4 hymn, +1 knight, +1 sword of body and mind...) I'd say you're actually less than 10 cards off and a similar play style so, my list should be a good reference. There are even tournament reports (terribly written but there) for you to get some follow-up on (so they're not just lists).

Krondo9, the deck style works. Try it before you say it doesn't. Maybe your versions didn't work. Maybe you weren't used to playing with something like it. Either way, I'm having success with it so it's not terrible.

[berry]

I'm ignoring nothing, I've not had time to thoroughly read every post, though, because of work and other must do's.

I agree that playing hymn is a strain on the mana but I feel like I have to try it out well myself before I agree with you - I would have a hard time playing rock without hymns. Glad we've come to some of the same conclusions then, although I made mine because of the bannings. Heh.

[sdematt]

Basically, TS and Top get way better, since they're not going to get Force'd profitably. Those start to become auto includes.

With respect to SFM vs. Depths vs. GSZ, I think the middle option really loses steam now. With Goblins coming back, Stingscourger your token seems like the worst, in addition to all the other arguments I previously had against it. Now, you literally have zero protection for the token; I can't commit and say Depths is a viable path anymore.

What I can say is SFM doesn't change in terms of value for us, at least that much. We never had counters against it previous to this, since most of us weren't playing SFM and MM together, so I think it gets better since there's more aggro. But, with more Zoo, comes more Bolts, which suck. I tihnk Sword selection will change, but I'd still leave the SFM combo in if you're still playing it.

GSZ also gets better since you can GSZ for Ooze against Reanimator and Teeg for combo. I'll try to fit it in, considering Chains probably becomes a sideboard card if Stoneblade falls apart. We should be watching that thread as well, and see what they're doing.

-Matt

[Krondo9]

Damion have you played post-banning? If so, please post your decklist with Green Sun and Stoneforge. Im curious to see how you have intergrated both of them, considering stoneforge takes at least 6 slots if using a batterskull.

[mdc1010]

Basically, TS and Top get way better, since they're not going to get Force'd profitably. Those start to become auto includes.

With respect to SFM vs. Depths vs. GSZ, I think the middle option really loses steam now. With Goblins coming back, Stingscourger your token seems like the worst, in addition to all the other arguments I previously had against it. Now, you literally have zero protection for the token; I can't commit and say Depths is a viable path anymore.

What I can say is SFM doesn't change in terms of value for us, at least that much. We never had counters against it previous to this, since most of us weren't playing SFM and MM together, so I think it gets better since there's more aggro. But, with more Zoo, comes more Bolts, which suck. I tihnk Sword selection will change, but I'd still leave the SFM combo in if you're still playing it.

GSZ also gets better since you can GSZ for Ooze against Reanimator and Teeg for combo. I'll try to fit it in, considering Chains probably becomes a sideboard card if Stoneblade falls apart. We should be watching that thread as well, and see what they're doing.

-Matt

Wait a second.. Your worried about Stingscourger on a Marit Large token? You shouldn't commit to getting a DD combo until the end of their turn under most circumstances anyways. By doing so why are you worried about Stingscourger? They can't interact with your plan in any way shape or form outside of a Vial on 2 (hello Vindicate). It's an auto-win on your turn against Goblins every time... Plus the first strike on the Hexmage is highly relevant against Goblins.

[sdematt]

I'm saying it's another thing to worry about. I've really talked about this a lot before, I really don't want to repeat myself. I'm just adding another nail to the coffin in which that plan is contained. If you like it, play it. It really doesn't matter to me, you won't hurt my feelings. I'm just pointing out that there's tons of ways to deal with it, and many of the ways to deal with it are quite popular.

-Matt

[mdc1010]

That's true for almost every major strategy to deck development for decks in DTB. Only the fringe decks don't see strategies that are popular against them, but at the risk of being usually a less powerful or consistent deck.

There are tons of ways to deal with a SFM or GSZ version too, that are just as popular. Don't troll me bro.

[hungryboi]

GSZ and SFM don't require any setting up. A 20/20 flyer takes a lot to set up, then you run the risk of it not finishing the game.

I was thinking about Moms again in the MD to combat aggro. This may be helpful in combatting the surge of predicted Goblins, zoo, and merfolk. Moms and equipment combination are always deadly.

[damionblackgear]

Damion have you played post-banning? If so, please post your decklist with Green Sun and Stoneforge. Im curious to see how you have intergrated both of them, considering stoneforge takes at least 6 slots if using a batterskull.

there are lists in some of my previous posts (you won't have to go back more than 3 pages to find at least 1). I'm not going to plug it in again.

On a list post banning, do you mean since the announcement? If so, I played the same one I mentioned in my last tournament report sub 1 top for 1 library. X-0 split in last round. Played against Loam Rock (with hex) (2-0), Death and Taxes (2-1), Big Zoo (2-1), and Rock (split).

If you want one with banning in effect, no one can. Not unless they're from the future. They don't go active until October 1st. So, if you want a list from then, you'll have to wait until that day comes.

[muscleb]

I think the debate about fitting Stoneforge and Zenith in the same list has been done, and for the most part I think we can agree on the fact that both engines in the same deck just requires too much mana.
So i just threw together two lists to display what they could look like. These are in no way complete tested lists or anything, just a starting point to discuss the future gameplan in the post-MM meta.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of ?
2 Vindicate/Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Diving Top

1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswepth heath


4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Green Sun Zenith
3 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswepth heath


Surely the first list would seem to be better against aggro, and the latter to be better against combo. There are obviously a bunch of different directions to go from here, so lets discuss where we can go and why.

[AggroSteve]

for the GSZ version, there are a lot more options for targets:

- spore frog (i believe damion or some other guy here used him to battle progenitus, and with volrath's stronhold its quite strong^^)
- Gaddock Teeg (quite strong against combo, control, or for example staxx, enchantress,... + most people would think GSZ for 2 will mostly get a goyf, so often it does not get countered)
- dryad arbor (for speeding up the deck, if used the right way/against the right decks, or quite nice against deck with sacrifice effects when a fetch is kept open)
- eternal witness (nice thing and it has allways been, but might be a bit slow)
- thrun the last troll (obvious good against removalheavy decks, also good against merfolk)

these are just some examples

[AggroSteve]

for the GSZ version, there are a lot more options for targets:

- spore frog (i believe damion or some other guy here used him to battle progenitus, and with volrath's stronhold its quite strong^^)
- Gaddock Teeg (quite strong against combo, control, or for example staxx, enchantress,... + most people would think GSZ for 2 will mostly get a goyf, so often it does not get countered)
- dryad arbor (for speeding up the deck, if used the right way/against the right decks, or quite nice against deck with sacrifice effects when a fetch is kept open)
- eternal witness (nice thing and it has allways been, but might be a bit slow)
- thrun the last troll (obvious good against removalheavy decks, also good against merfolk)

these are just some examples

[Krondo9]

In an effort to adjust to pre-misstep life, I have been testing an old version of Junk from SCG: Charlotte, the last open before NPH was released. My list is similar to this one:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/855#9372

It does not run vindicates, but rather uses jittes as its removal suite. While we cannot use this exact list anymore probably, I think it is pretty solid and should be considered.

[Seems Good]

I dont like his choices of maindeck Teeg or Inquisition over Thoughtseize to be honest

[AggroSteve]

in a faster format, NO or jace probably become less of a threat since a few aggro decks can just race such strategies, so i think if NO and JaceTMS get less popular also thoughtseize might get changed for inquisition (allthough against combo i would still prefer thoughtseize)
in a field of zoo for example it would be profitable running inquisition over thoughtseize

[mordraid]

I dont like his choices of maindeck Teeg or Inquisition over Thoughtseize to be honest

maindeck teeg with green sun's zenith is absolutly wonderful. It stops about anything that is usually a game loss. (time spiral, tendrils of agony and so on)

[damionblackgear]

in a faster format, NO or jace probably become less of a threat since a few aggro decks can just race such strategies, so i think if NO and JaceTMS get less popular also thoughtseize might get changed for inquisition (allthough against combo i would still prefer thoughtseize)
in a field of zoo for example it would be profitable running inquisition over thoughtseize

I agree with this (Jace & N.O.) though for the most part. Both cards were played in slower control decks during the faster times (pre-mm) and I believe that people will eventually switch back to those lists. For the time being though, I wouldn't maindeck Teeg as there are a lot of times where you want to play something else and you topdeck him.

He may only be a one of but you all know that you can end up drawing your one of's a lot more than you actually want to. I would, however, leave him in the baord. You never know when you're going to face Stax, Enchantress, N.O., Combo, high costed control, or Jace and actually want him to stop their plan.

[berry]

Soooo... I've been slightly moving towards new builds, today testing a straight up GSZ build.

I hated the Goyfs, as usual. I wanted SFM. But I'm having trouble fitting everything I want in the list... To begin with, here's my current list:

1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SB:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Smother
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat

As you can see, I like 1-offs... Eh.

The problems I have is:

1. I'd like to play either with 4 SFM 2 GSZ, or a 3/3 split. I can't seem to find the space.
2. I just can't play rock without hymn, but I'm not sure this list is playable, mana-wise, we'll see...

3. General thoughts and ideas?

[Nelis]

I would get rid of the Witness. To me its one of those cards that can be useful when its in your list but you don't miss it when its not in your list.

On Gaddock Teeg. I would never go without it main board*. A lot of combo decks don't have an answer to it game one, so it really can steal games. And its at the least useful against blue based decks (that run Fow). Against aggro its not that good but you can always use it as a blocker to give you time to set up something bigger.

* but then again I live in Holland so combo is always to be expected especially now that MM is banned. So if your metagame doesn't have a lot of combo than I probably wouldn't run it if I felt I had too little slots left main.

[Seems Good]

I see people's points about Teeg, but they are all under the assumption that you are running GSZ. I cut GSZ a few months ago and haven't looked back since.

[Borealis]

I do like GSZ and am still anxiously waiting to find a deck to use it in, but I still don't see the value in Junk. The toolbox options basically deal with the same problems that cards like Vindicate can handle, only the investment is usually greater. Gaddock Teeg especially does not seem all that strong in Junk when we have Thoughtseizes and Hymns for Combo and control, and many decks are capable of dealing with him anyway.

Besides all that, in reference to Berry, I'm not sure you really need 4 or even 3 Stoneforges in your main. If you do want that may, then I'd probably back off on the GSZ plan more and maybe standardize the rest of your list to deal with the non-creature decks. If you want a couple GSZ and all the one-ofs, that's fine too but I wouldn't let Mystic take up more than 5 or 6 slots in that case. GSZ is best when it can be a ramp spell early AND a threat later on, usually fueled by Hierarchs or the like. Having 2 GSZ and 2 ramp targets isn't as good as having 4 Hierarch and 3-4 GSZ, as you will inevitably be slower. Junk is greedy enough on mana with Wastelands and Mazes and whatnot, so having both toolboxes in your deck is really stressful on your mana base. Being able to cast KOTR for 3, leaving up a Wasteland for Daze or to swipe a dual from them (and grow the Knight) is a lot better than having to tap out for 4 and risk running into Daze or letting them hit their critical land count. Just sayin'.

If you do decide to run both, I think I would probably run 2-3 Mystics, a Batterskull and a Jitte (or maybe just a Sword and a Jitte), and 3 GSZ. Having two toolboxes in the deck also means you are very likely to draw the wrong card at the wrong time, which is why I prefer cards like Vindicate over hate bears and equipment. It's versatile, and works in many situations whereas the wrong toolbox tool might not. That said, I'd go light on the toolboxes in your main, and let the SB do the work for games 2-3. Keeping Hymns and the other staples in the maindeck seems like a fine idea to me, as long as your mana base is stable.

[berry]

I don't see how Teeg is maindeckable in a meta that isn't 25%+ storm-combo, really (at least not more maindeckable than a singleton that actually does something all the time).

This is hardly the most relevant discussion though, the overall strategy is more important to figure out than the singletons.

[Artlee]

One thing is almost for sure. Storm will become more popular post ban.

[Krondo9]

I've been testing stoneforge lately against post-banning decks. It is pretty bad right now due to the fact that spell snare is being played. Plus, Stifle isnt great for her either. I might go back to a GSZ based list, as that gets around snare. either that, or run loam + elspeth main.

[sdematt]

I ran my list in a pre-ban Misstep tournament on Tues, and went 3-1. I lost the first round due to a horrible game 1 (mull to 5 with 1 land, and never see another one. Game 3, I lose to flipping 3 3-drops off Bob, then die to an EOT Clique which swings for 6 with 3 Nobles. How awk with no Knight to tutor Maze).

My list was as follows:

3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze
1 Karakas

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 SFM

4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 IoK

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

3 Vindicate
3 Top
4 Swords
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

---BOARD---

2 Ghastly Demise
2 Tariff
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Deed
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Extirpate
3 Grip

Round 1, lost to Bant in a tight last game.

Round 2, won 2-1 against Goblins. Discard + Deed + 6 pieces of removal is decent.

Round 3, played Recurring Nightmare/Spike Weaver/Eternal Witness control. Went 2-1. Long games...

Round 4: Played Mono Red Burn. Took him to town with discard :P

-Matt

[BWM]

That's 59 cards maindeck if I count correctly, also, there's no SFM-target, can I assume Sword of FF?




How many lands would you guys advice in a version with 2-3 GSZ and 4 Noble Hierarc

[Seems Good]

I was testing against Mono R Vial Gobs last night, I think this deck will definitely see a resurgence. What are our options hear MD/Board that people like? Deed? I feel like if we don't hit them with proper discard or start with a sword early, things get ugly real quick and there is no great mid game answer.

[berry]

4 Plows, 4 TS, 4 hymn MD.

3 Ghastly Demise/Smother, 2 Pernicious Deed SB?

Running another GPT this sunday with GSZ + SFM-build, will report back next week.

[sdematt]

In that matchup, Deed and 6 pieces of 1/2 CMC removal are your friend. Moxen are also good, since you don't get hit as hard by Port effects. SFM is a must, as Batterskull can help do damage control. Just remember Stingscourger is a card again, so don't get too greedy by putting all your eggs in one basket.

For lands in this deck, I'd never play less than 23, even with Nobles or anything like that. If you're playing Moxen, I'd bump it to 24 or 25 even.

-Matt

[Seems Good]

Yeah I will still adamantly support 3 Mox D as a requirement for current Junk builds. In this matchup especially considering port. I agree that SFM is huge here, every time I resolved her and was able to flash in Skull I won.

I am thinking about MD Deed but I'm not sure what to cut.

// Spells
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

// Lands
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas


I haven't had a problem with 22 lands/3 mox really.

[comandantenorton83]

Hi, I have been trying a different build two weeks, but just at my local shop and in MWS.

My list is bassically the standard one, but has 3 SFM+batterskull+jitte, no mox, no GSZ package, and 4 x IoK instead of 4x TS. The main difference in my build is having 3 Bitterblossom, hand, so far, it has been one of the best cards in the deck. Most victories come due to having one BB in play.

When it hits the board, it becomes a very good control card. At worst, it provides chump blockers every turn, making your knights/goyfs able to attack and attack every turn. At best, faeries start flooding the table, and are able to carry jitte and SoL&S/SoF&I like a champ over the air.

The only possible issue is life loss, but, for me it has never been a problem so far. The -1 life per turn is always better than the damage you would had been dealt with the creature they block; and, if they don't block, they are attacking and your opponent is losing usually more life than you (and jitte, SoL&S and batterskull help a lot with life issues, so is not a big problem).

Other minor issue is that we already have many 2-drops (goyf, confidant, SFM, Hymn), but I think it is not a real problem. And I have to say that it BB hates seeing deed, so I'm using engineered explosives successfully.

I know the main topic now is packages (GSZ, SFM) and the new post-MM metagame, but I just want to share these ideas with you, because they are being useful for me right now. If you have time, give it a try.

PD: sorry for any possible misspelling or mistake; English is not my mothern language.

[AggroSteve]

i could see bitterblossom with SFM being more effective than a GSZ + SFM package together, but that would probably depend on your meta and preference

i have to say bitterblossom is an awesome card, and everytime i face it on my opponents side, i wish i had a vindicate immideately or i will lose

[berry]

Bitterblossom is the reason I just to play DeadGuy. It's GREAT with SFM, good idea.

And it's definitely open to discussion, let's call it another package. :)

Saying Mox Diamonds are a must is just silly since people have reported playing successfully without them - you playing a few games vs what you think will be a metadeck after the bannings does not equal fact.

I can see SFM being great in some situations post-bannings (goblins, i.e.) but also utterly terrible in other (Stifle & Spell Snare being go-to cards in blue decks).

SFM/GSZ/hymn package actually does WORK, but I do want to fit moxens in there, but if I do I'd have to cut one of these three.

Post-bannings I'll just revert back into pure GSZ unless someone comes up with proven results that show another build to be stronger.

[damionblackgear]

Matt, tough breaks about Bant deck. I'm interested in why you chose light and shadow over any of the others. Was it for the life or to get a lost creature? Was the list you played (recurring nightmare) Nic Fit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control))? What caused issues? I haven't had a chance to play against the deck style yet so I won't be much good outside if theory.

[sdematt]

I chose L+S since I knew there would be a ton of Stoneblade, which I never faced...AGAIN. L+S is good since you can attack Jace through their BS and SFM, or block their Batterskull until they hook it up to Clique. Getting back a countered creature or a creature milled by Body and Mind is also good. I played against a custom list, very similar to Nic Fit, but with Blue added for Gifts Ungiven and Brainstorm.

The deck was good since making Gifts piles can be a bit of a dick. The deck has a ton of long game advantage with The Abyss, tons of Eternal Witnesses, Spike Weavers, etc. Just not a lot to hit, but hard to kill since it drags out the game.

I'm working on lists at the moment. But, I'm also working on Dreadstill, Aggro Loam, Thopters :)

-Matt

[berry]

Sounds like CalebD's first take on the BUG Nic Fit-list, I think he abandoned it (and to be fair if you go BUG Nic Fit, you go Natural Order).

I'm curious about your list Matt, but also about peoples thoughts on why certain cards (hymn, SFM, GSZ) would be good/bad and why in the future.

Am myself also busy with a certain Naught-build (though with Snapcaster Mage and a certain faerie, and no Standstill...), great minds think alike!

[sdematt]

My list is the same as I've posted a few times. I can post it again if necessary, but it's like 523 AM :P

GSZ is good like it was pre-MM (I playeed 2 GSZ and 2 Equipment, but no SFM at Providence and almost made Day 2, even against Stoneblade at the time) because you can fetch Teeg against Dredge/Combo/Jace, and Qasali against Batterskull, or just a creature when you need it. It also fetches Ooze, which is really good now, as far as I've tested.

I think Hymn is still a great card. The format is faster, and will be a bit less stable to get that speed. People will be running more tempo, less real lands, and more gunpowder packed into the same cannon of 60 cards. Taking away any of that will be detrimental. Taking out their lands or key plays is a huge swing, especially if you're running blue (was playing BUG Team America yesterday and went Hymn, they Snared, I misstepped, he missteped, I forced. Wewt!)

SFM is a bit trickier, I'll think a bit more about it, plus I've got to go pick up beta duals at a clandestine IHOP meeting :tongue:

-Matt

[James22]

I've been playing the rock for a long time. Before New Phyrexia (and mental misstep), I played a zenith list, very similar to those of the SCG tournaments (3-4 zenith e 2-3 singletons). During the reign of MM, I played Junk Depths. Now that wizzy banned MM, I'm really not sure about which list is the best for the next metagame. Next week I'm going to play in the most important legacy tournament here in Italy (it's the sixth year it takes place, with an average of 350 players) so I hope to go there with the best possible decklist. At this moment I'm testing 2 different builds: the former is the zenith one, the latter is a decklist, I'm developping with SFM package, very similar to the others I see in this topic. For instance, the 2 decklists are:

Zenith Rock
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist



SFM Rock
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist

What do you think is the best way of approaching to the new metagame?

[stealth]

@James22, I would want a Scavaging Ooze somewhere in the 75 of the zenith build, a 2nd tutorable anti-gravehate (after B-Bog) could be quite backbrakeing against Dredge, which didnt really get affected by the mistep ban.

[sdematt]

Traditional Dredge got better with the banning of Misstep, since all their discard outlets are 1-CMC.

-Matt

[Krondo9]

James, I am using a similar list to yours, however here are some key changes that would make.

1. Perish is not very good on the board, it kills our creatures, and I don't think Prog is that big of a threat anymore to warrant using perish.

2. I dont think you need Krosan Grip if you are already have Pernicious Deed. They fulfill the same purpose, and you need more protection against combo.

Personally, I would either run some spot removal, or an elspeth/pithing needle/thrun/duresses.

Thrun is fine as a 1 of. It is better being cast than it is as a green sun target.

Just my 2 cents.

[sdematt]

Deed and grip DO NOT serve the same purpose at all. Grip is specifically designed to kill Batterskull, whereas Deed is usually used for wiping out swarms of dudes.

They CAN serve the same function, but usually do NOT.

-Matt

[Treehouse]

Personally I would not rely on the SFM package, although it might give you a better matchup against dredge and zoo in the first game (return Batterskull to your hand, germ triggers in the graveyard and removes bridge from below in opposing graveyard and against zoo you always have a chump block ready as long as SFM is on board). However, since a Rock build doesn't contain any counter spells or card draw ala "Ancestral Vision" or handfixer like "Brainstorm" SFM is almost a dead card in this deck. Thus you can't protect him on board and believe me, you always want to protect him once you have the skull. Otherwise it os just a 5 mana equip. Why playing a second equipment next to Batterskull anyway? You ALWAYS want to got for the skull and tutor it as early as possible, or not? Can't really imagine a situation where you want to cheat in a "Sword of..." on EOT turn 3... If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me

Junk (or Rock) always works better with heavy disruption I guess. Play as much discard as you can and vindicate/place deed for any opposing threats/lands early.
SFM doesn't do anything of these thoughts here, thats my point of view at least =). Dark Confidant and Knight of the Reliquary already creating enough troubles for our opponent if he doesn't FoW or swords any of them. But with MM gone the tides have turned. A lot of combo decks will come back, Goblins, more zoo, more NO RUG I guess and countertop (with swords of the meek and thopter foundry combo). Neither Deck is a favorable matchup. Ok, Pernicious Deed might handle a lot of threats but remember that our opponent can make explosive openings as well (land, zenith, dryad, noble hierach - pray that you have swords in this moment or any cheap removal).
Scavenging Ooze is a card that only has effect if it hits the redzone on the first or second turn... while cards like wheel of sun and moon, leyline of the void or Tormods Crypt do a better job, sometimes even in the middle of the game. I simply do not want to sit down and leave mana open for Ooze while I could possibly cast hymn or thoughtseize or even Bob. I have to admit that I didn't test the Ooze so far but the one green mana to activate it's ability gives me the shivers. Of course, if the 1-of-Ooze is in your opening hand and can do Mox, Land, Ooze against the given matchup then GG I would say. If you're not able to hardcast him on the first turn you'll probably go for GSZ on Ooze... Oh, that makes 2 mana for GSZ and one untapped mana source that hopefully produces green. Not really favorable in any way.

Green Sun on the other hand is a great card and it deserves to be tested in an unknown meta. I think that the most favorable built should be this one as a reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1533&d=211915. It seems to me that it doesn't need that much modifications or updates at all, don't you think?
The only thing I would change is to cut the 3 Tops and add 3 Vindicate instead. I guess the life loss because of confidant shouldn't matter since most of our spells cost 1 or 2 mana. At least 26 cards have either no mana cost or cost 0. Only eight 3 mana drops in mb sounds fair enough. Umezawas Jitte is the best equipment (again) to handle Fish, Zoo and other beat down decks. I see no problem having it in my opening hand or draw it later in the game, nonetheless it's a tremendous threat if you have access to it in the early game as well. Finally, the sideboard made my day:

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Perish
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Enlightened Tutor Sideboard which also interacts great with my mainboard (jitte, mox if needed). Of course, this is not the Uber sideboard against each and every deck. But I basically like the idea to include this little toolbox, although i miss Extirpate here and Diabolic Edict... Choke and Thorn of Amethyst might say goodbye and welcome 2 Extirpate.

Speaking of Toolbox, what do you guys think adding about 2-3 Crop Rotation in our mainboard? It gives us an early access to bojuka bog, karakas or tower of the magistrate and Wastelands if you like/need. Since it is an instant it can be chained to opposing wastelands as well and might even protect us from being screwed. It also fills our graveyard with fetch and wastelands for Knight of the Reliquary, which becomes quite big in the early game. 6/6 on turn 2 if you play with mox :)


I also have a list around with 3 Unearth, 2 Witness, 3 Kitchen Finks, Volrath, 4 Knights, 4 Goyfs, 4 Vindicate, 3 Deed, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Extirpate, 1 Garruk Wildspeaker; all MB. The rest if the deck is Rock standard, just without Mox. Although it appears to be slow it can become quite the bomb if you survive and disrupt the early game of your opponent. Question is if this Idea needs too much mana nowadays and too mucg turns to go full throttle. Unearth is always a tricky move, since it can return all our creatures from grave or we simply cycle it in case we don't need it...
You just FoW my Gaddock Teeg!? Unearth! That surely can ruin someones day.
It becomes even more funny with the Circle Witness, Volrath, Unearth :).
I've piloted this deck back in Madrid 2010 and it was a terrific performance. Although I went 5-3, I had so much fun playing it and havinf answers in MB to nearly everything. The 3 games I lost were due to bad plays from my side and lack of experience in Legacy I would say. My wins were against 2 Countertop/Supreme Blue Decks, 1 Show and Tell, 1 Affinity, 1 Dredge. Earned the losses against 1 Madness Survival (although I had him after the first game I made a big mistake bording Deed out), 1 Faeries (mana screwed and mulligan to 4 in the first and second game), 1 Merfolk (he simply had the perfect draw in game 1, game 2 never finished because of time out...)


These are just my 2 cents of thoughts and ideas within this archetype. Maybe you guys see a way to use Unearth or Crop Rotation in a better way. For now I will test the Zenith Horizon Variant as posted above and might come back with proper test results.

Cheerio

P.S: Since I'm from Germany my english might not be that accurate ;).

[berry]

SFM package is CA, and if you do not get Batterskull it won't be a big deal. I agree, it feels weird not to fetch it, but I've not even wanted it in the deck until I got convinced that it's sadly that good.

Land, Zenith, Dryad, Noble is quite an illegal play...

Scavenging Ooze is better at alot of things than it is at hating out dredge (since like you said, you need it FAST vs dredge).

It wins Knight-wars, this is ridicilously important in some matchups.

It grows fucking huge, fast, believe me... AND the lifegain can be relevant. It's a beating.

Your last list reminds me of the Rock Nic Fit lists, check out that thread, you'd like it.

Going to a GPT now, playing SFM/GSZ hybrid, wish me luck...

[Treehouse]

Guess I have to give you that one on "Land, Zenith, Dryad, Noble is quite an illegal play... ". Forgot for a moment that cruel little summoning sickness :confused:. But you get the idea.

Good luck on the Trial!

[James22]

@stealth: ooze is a card I'm going to test obviously. Many friends of mine told me it's awesome in several MU and situations. Actually, I haven't decided where I have to place it, into the main deck or into the sideboard. As sdematt said Dregde got really better with the MM banning.

@Krondo9
1. Perish anti-sinergy with the deck is really less important than you think. I sided it in, in MUs where Rock has to act the role of a control deck, so there's no need of overextending... Usually you side it in against Maverick and Punishing Zoo (here in Italy thery are hugely played), and it's not unusual to make 4x2 or something like that. However the 2 sideboards are both under construction, and they are not completely defined.
2. In the SFM list we haven't zenith-for-qasali, so I feel more confident having a good way to deal with batterskull or counterbalance.

[Seems Good]

Personally I would not rely on the SFM package, although it might give you a better matchup against dredge and zoo in the first game (return Batterskull to your hand, germ triggers in the graveyard and removes bridge from below in opposing graveyard and against zoo you always have a chump block ready as long as SFM is on board). However, since a Rock build doesn't contain any counter spells or card draw ala "Ancestral Vision" or handfixer like "Brainstorm" SFM is almost a dead card in this deck. Thus you can't protect him on board and believe me, you always want to protect him once you have the skull. Otherwise it os just a 5 mana equip. Why playing a second equipment next to Batterskull anyway? You ALWAYS want to got for the skull and tutor it as early as possible, or not? Can't really imagine a situation where you want to cheat in a "Sword of..." on EOT turn 3... If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me


Here's why you run multiple equipment with the SFM package: if you start with an equipment in hand, draw an equipment before you play SFM, or resolve one SFM and then resolve a second. These situations come up quite frequently.

Just another note that I'd like to reiterate from previous posts I made: one of the reasons SFM package is so good in this deck is because of your SB options. You get to bring in SoBaM or SoLaS (or SoFaI) against mirror, Deadguy, Bant aggro/NO, etc...and just slaughter. If you resolve a sword against a deck that has 2 of its colors, it's really tough for them to win. This alone has one me games/matches with ease. Just one of the many reasons to play this package.

[berry]

GPT did not go well, turns out mashing 2 strategies because you can't choose is not a good idea. (Also, the meta in that town was ridicilous.)

I'm probably reverting back to the old GSZ-build posted earlier with a few 1-off changes in board and main... It just feels better post-bannings (CB/top IS back, and so is Stifle... enjoy your Squires).

About that build, I'm guessing the Inq's over TS's are because of the lifeloss from Dark Confidant being enough in a deck without Batterskull? You're still failing to hit cards like Jace TMS and NO... Kind of hurts. Is it worth it?

[damionblackgear]

GPT did not go well, turns out mashing 2 strategies because you can't choose is not a good idea. (Also, the meta in that town was ridicilous.)

I'm probably reverting back to the old GSZ-build posted earlier with a few 1-off changes in board and main... It just feels better post-bannings (CB/top IS back, and so is Stifle... enjoy your Squires).

About that build, I'm guessing the Inq's over TS's are because of the lifeloss from Dark Confidant being enough in a deck without Batterskull? You're still failing to hit cards like Jace TMS and NO... Kind of hurts. Is it worth it?

What did you end up playing against? What happened? I agree that choosing both because you can't decide is a bad idea but I have a hard time believing that the deck was bad, seeing as we're only a couple cards off and having opposite results.

[berry]

The deck was obviously not BAD, per se, but I played bad and I felt like i was back at the 45% against everything - also, I played without moxen, I think this is a huge difference even though it's just a few cards.

Losses were too SFM rock (-hymn +bitterblossom), SFM rock, hypergenesis (yyyyyyyeah...) and Deadguy Ale.

Let me put it this way: to ME this deck tries to do too many things, I need a list that is crystal clear in what it wants to do, I guess.

I feel like the options is SFM + 3-4 Vindicate, or GSZ + 3 SDT + a few (2) Jitte - and the latter fits me well.

[Krondo9]

Ive been testing with kyle miller's list from SCG Charlotte. Its really solid. Not running vindicate actually helps this deck, as there really arent that many necessary targets with jace not being that played anymore. Try it out. I think its much more fluid and less clunky. Stoneforge is unnecessary for us imo.

[berry]

That is the list I've reverted to (at least until I've built Nic Fit Rock), Krondo9. :) It seems very simple and strong.

I disagree that Vindicate is useless, but in this build it is... IF you run SFM, you should run the full package of Vindicates.

[Krondo9]

Ok Berry, I don't disagree. Could you explain why though? I'm just curious as to why stoneforge and vindicate are syngergistic. Yeah I will most likely start playing Kyle Miller's list as well. My only changes are:

Board:
-2 Perish
-1 Thorn of Amethyst

+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Bojuka Bog (I cut it from the main to add a scrubland)
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll

Let me know what you think. If you have any innovative new changes to it as well, please post them too. I feel like Metamorph is just better than Perish in the NO matchup, since it doesnt kill your guys. Additionally, it is fetchable with tutor. I never liked thorn anyways, and I think Thrun is really solid against team america and blue in general.

[Krondo9]

Wow I really need to stop doubleposting

[berry]

It's a matter of mana, the SFM-build can run on 1WB and win on 1W alot of games, therefore making a secondary LD-plan more viable with mass Wasteland + Vindicate. Meanwhile, the GSZ-build almost always requires at least 1GW and usually even more stable mana to be able to fullfill what it wants to do. What it does is harder to disrupt and IMO stronger, sure, but i just feel like Vindicate-LD-plan doesn't fit as well.

I have done no innovative new changes, yet. I swapped the Perishes for Phyrexian Metamorphs, just like you! They are great. Been boarding Thrun since day 1. I love Thorn of Amethyst, though. But I'm still not sure if I'm even going to go the E Tutor-plan in the SB.

[Treehouse]

Is Thrun really that great? I surely love this troll but isn't the 4cmc too much for the deck? He is great against CounterTop all the way but shouldn't we more concentrate on disrupting sword of the meek, thopter foundry and counterbalance in that MU? Once the situation is clear it shouldn't matter which creature hits the table...
Maybe Tower of the Magistrate in addition to the Pridemage in MB would be a better option since it fits the KotR toolbox and protects us from Batterskull or other equipments such as Vedalken Shackles or Sword of Body and Mind, or stopping opposing Umezawa's Jitte from getting counters. Just a wild guess on the Tower but since I expect a SFM meta all the way it would be a nice tool which really is a pain.

[Asthereal]

If you have issues with CounterThopter, run more Deeds.
Deed will solve all issues involving that combo: Foundry is gone, and all tokens are gone. Deed will even sort out nasty Counterbalances. You can blow it up in response to 'flip the Top' and kill Top too. Pretty neat.

Thrun I'd never run more than once in the 75. Very slow and most of the time strictly worse than Elspeth.

[Treehouse]

Oh, I have no issues with Countertop unless I face the situation where he has a 2cmc and 3cmc spell on top of its libary, a active counterbalance and a top... :mad:. But in that situation almost every Deck is dead anyway. So I came to the conclusion that Thrun isn't really helpful here either, since we simply need disrupt against blue. Force them to use all their counters amd hopefully disrupt their lands/threats and you're almost through. Normally. So Thrun might not needed anyway?

And with the EE strategy in SB I thought that we could use one slot either for a second Metamorph, or even Tower of the Magistrate, against SFM package. I'm just guessing that Thorn of the Amethyst might not have any impact at all and can be cut.
With Innistrad we also have Nevermore, but don't know if this 1-of makes sense here.

[sdematt]

Thrun is perfectly fine against them. You have Vindicate, Deed, and hand disruption to try and deal with them before they lock you out. It's not like they can MM you again.

Plus, GSZ can "hide" true manacosts. Like, you can GSZ for total CMC 3 (the hardest value to CB against) and get Qasali. Thrun shines since most of the time, they're just derdling trying to find combo pieces. Thrun is a beating.

-Matt

[Krondo9]

i tested this deck today at my local store using a similar list to kyle millers list from SCG charlotte. I went 3-1 today and here are some things i noticed:

1. Jitte is insanely good and made me not miss vindicate at all. In any matchup where I got this out and swung, I won the game. It is just so powerful.

2. I might change 1 of my 3 sideboard Deeds to an EE. EE is amazing against 1-drop zoo. I am also considering mixing inquisition into the hand disruption package, but that has yet to be decided. EE means you dont have to take out moxes.

3. Green Sun is just awesome, and after testing with both Green Sun and Stoneforge, I have to say Green Sun is better. If anyone is trying to figure out what to play, I strongly recommend Kyle Miller's list.

Nonetheless, I will continue to test this list and will update accordingly with my results/findings.

[anarki]

Hello. I will going to SCG Indy this weekend and would like some input on my current list. I expect Countertop to be around and tweaked the deck to help in Game 1. Any suggestions would be very helpful.

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 vindicate

3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 Wasteland

//sideboard
1 qasali pridemage
1 krosan grip
3 pernicious deed
2 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
2 go for the throat
2 engineered plague
1 scavenging ooze
2 pithing needle

[berry]

I think the Vindicates should be 3rd Ooze and Top _or_ a Scavenging Ooze main, where I like him.

I think Maze of Ith is a must, always the strongest land in the list.

Not sure why you're running EP and Needles (OK, I guess you're running needles for SDT etc, but I just dislike the card).

[Borealis]

Anarki, I agree with Berry that maybe Engineered Plague isn't so great right now even if Gobos do make a fierce comeback. Usually you need 2 in play to be truly effective, so I'd probably just cut them for another sweeper. Damnation, Wrath of God, Perish, or even Engineered Explosives (for 1-drop Zoo mostly) would all be decent options. If you still see NO Pro and Emrakul decks a fair amount, then you can opt for Phyrexian Metamorph in that slot as well. Pithing Needle, however, is a great catchall and should not be underestimated if used correctly in a deck like this. Also, I think you should keep in the Vindicates, but that's my two cents. Scavenging Ooze main doesn't sound like a bad idea though if you run into a lot of opposing Goyfs and Knights and whatnot. Otherwise the one in the sideboard seems fine. I like that your list isn't too heavy into Green Sun but still sports a few key toolbox items.

To defend a couple of the green Monsters that have been discussed:

Thrun may not be terribly necessary anymore, depending on how much Blue Control is kicking around, but he's better than you may think. I run 2 Elspeth in my main, and 1 Thrun in the board, and I will gladly play all 3 of them against any Blue deck slower than Merfolk. In the Fish matchup, in fact, he is arguably better than an Elpeth. Most importantly, he's very relevant in the Aggro matchups, specifically against Zoo.

Scavenging Ooze is also better than you may think at first glance, although in this case I think I'm mostly preaching to the choir. The ability to outrace opposing Goyfs and Knights while building your own perfect beast is nothing to sneeze at. Sure it uses 1 Green Mana to grow, but it's at our leisure, whenever the best moment is. Waiting until their EOT to do so (or just choosing to Top instead) is why this card is good. If it was at sorcery speed, different story. If Goyf wasn't so damn popular, also different story. Scavenging Ooze is my Goyf #5, and I don't even run Green Sun Zenith. It's well worth the sideboard slot as a flexible answer in many matchups.

[Krondo9]

anarki, If i were to make some small changes to your list, I would do:

-2 Tarmogoyf
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Green Sun Zenith

I think 3 is the best number for GSZ in all lists. It ensures that you always see one, usually. Plus, as SdeMatt said before, it can hide true mana costs, such as for qasali pridemage, which you definitely want to do against countertop, since 3 is tough to hit. And as your deck thins out, your GSZs dont, so you can maintain a constant flow of threats.

On the board, I am currently trying 1 EE, 2 Deed. EE just wrecks 1-drop zoo and is faster overall, while not forcing you to lose your mox diamonds (which can be important)

If you're actually going to run Plague, you might as well run Jitte instead. It's just better. 2 Jitte for 2 Plague seems more than fine if you ask me.

Please let us know how you do at SCG Indy though. Good luck!

[James22]

I would like to discuss a little bit more about vindicates-in-zenithrock. I'm really not convinced if it's better playing with 3 of them (in the place of 2 jitte and 1 bird... Kyle Miller's list), or going for the standard 2 jitte + 1 of something zenitable (IMHO scanvenging ooze is the best choice for this slot).The motivations posted by berry are all valid, but I'm also not conviced at all. I make a brief list of the advantages and the disadvantages of the 2 possible choices:

Playing vindicate:
+ 7 removals MD
+ possibility of a LD plan
+ solution to a resolved planeswalker (JACE)
- higher mana curve
- more color intensive CC

Playing 2 jittes + 1 ooze (in my case)
+ GREAT against aggro deck (expecially tribal ones)
+ a strong way to deal with opponend graveyard MD, in spite of the only bojuka (with ooze MD, I would put it in my sideboard instead MD and I would add another fetch or something like that)
+ lower mana curve
- no way to deal with a resolved PW (I'm not considering attacking with creatures)
- Land denial plan based on wastelands only
- 4 removal MD (also less way to deal with artifacts and enchantment preboard)

I'd like to focus your attention also on the anti-synergy between jittes and deeds (vs aggro decks you probably would like to have both of them).

I really can't make a decision :frown:

Another problem I'm having is to side in-out with the deck. I'd like to know what are your choices in the most important MUs. In particular I'd like to know when you side moxen out.

:smile:

[Elminister]

Side out Moxen against any slower deck, such as control or mirror. Games against such decks take forever and initial speed doesn't pay off versus card disadvantage and possibility for bad top decks.

I can't really comment on Vindicate debate. I just love that card and would never have less than 4 in my mainboard. My metagame has a lot of different decks and it's good to have an "answer-all" card. Post-board you can easily swap it for cheaper removal or whatever you need.

[Borealis]

James, you summed up my impression of Vindicate as well. In a nutshell, it covers a better function in a variety of matchups without losing power in the maindeck. While cards like Jitte and Ooze are great, they are slower responses to must answer situations (Jaces, Batterskull, etc), and they can sometime be a dead card in the wrong matchup. Vindicate is never dead, which is why I prefer it in my main over the other options. Currently I'm running 2 main with a single Explosives as the virtual 3rd Vindicate, as a nod to faster Aggro. I rely on my 3x Pernicious Deeds in the board in addition to some extra removal to deal with the decks that Jitte might be good against.

On that note, siding out Moxen is the first thing I do in any situation where I want the Deeds. Even in the faster matchups I would often rather grind game 2 out at a more even pace than trying to explode on turn 1. Since they know my deck by now most likely, it's less effective to surprise them with a 2-drop on the first turn, and the card disadvantage becomes more relevant after game 1. I'd rather 1-for-1 them as much as possible until I can hit a game-breaking sweeper in the midgame, rather than trying to dump my hand and try and regain tempo off a Dark Confidant. What else I side out depends on the matchup and how I'm feeling.

[Krondo9]

By not using vindicate, you can still hurt planeswalkers. I use pithing needle and phyrexian revoker sideboard, which allows me to get through w/ creatures. Ive just found the deck to play a lot faster and have a smoother curve without vindicate. I guess it depends on the Meta, since I'm not expecting Jace to see as much play now that misstep has been banned. I myself dont even use him anymore in my blue decks, because its tougher to stall long enough for him (vs. aggro/storm). Jitte can be good in more matchups than expected, even against decks like team america and storm. It gains you life vs. Storm, which is very relevant as their mana is not infinite for building storm. (Each hit requires 2 more cards on their part, in ANT/TES). Against Team, You can win Goyf wars, kill Vendlion Cliques, or stall tombstalker. Basically my point is, its not just good against aggro decks.

I've been testing this lately and its felt pretty good. I agree with the moxen theory, I almost always take it out if I bring in deed, as it is easily the worst topdeck in the mid/late game (except for pumping up a goyf)

Let's keep testing this though. I have been using a wishboard as well and I have to say it has been very good. Running a singleton Choke with a wishboard literally hoses several decks by itself.

[Treehouse]

@anarki
I would play the scavenging ooze over Birds in the Mainboard. I tested it finally and all can say is that people who stated it's very useful were absolutly right. You might win the KotR wars all the the time and it makes the matchup against dredge better in the first game, or even reanimator if they have a bad start...
About the Vindicate: I didn't miss them so far. Sure there are situations were it would be awesome to have a copy in your hand. But so far Jitte does a better job against all kind of decks.

As for the Sideboard I would say
-1 ooze (Going to main)
-2 plague
-1 pridemage
+2 Enlightened Tutor (I just love it and totally fits)
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph (against Reanimator, RUG, copy tarmogoyf... and EE can tutor it)
+1 Ethersworn Canonist (hello Combo ;)... also EE target)

Good luck on the SCG and have fun!

[Borealis]

To be honest I don't even own Jittes, though I have wanted to have access to them more than a few times in both Zoo and Junk. I will be picking up a pair in the near future, and will test them out if need be. Until it came up on this thread recently, I hadn't thought to use them as the deck is somewhat creature light, and I don't like having maindeck cards that can be dead on occasion (okay okay, except for Mox Diamond...). Then again though, I am running 2x Elspeth, so equipping Jitte is probably not too difficult in most games. If creature decks make a heavy comeback, I'll be sure to put them into the build to try out, but for now I still prefer Vindicate. Technically speaking Jitte can function on less lands, but it requires more time and more mana to get going usually, and it's conditional on having a creature ready. Often in a board stall I'd rather keep my Bob around than equip and swing into a blocker, even if it means Jitte gets active. I've seen what the card can do though, and I am aware of how powerful it can be. But think of it this way: would you rather be trying to equip and swing to gain 4 life against Storm on turn 4/5, or just Vindicate their only other land on turn 3/4 after you Wastelanded their first Dual away? In both situations you're gaining at least a turn on them, but I prefer the proactive approach. In creature matchups, it is a different story, as an active Jitte can represent multiple removal spells. I like keeping my build ready for a large tournament, even if it costs me a few percentage points in certain local metas.

I'll get my hands on some Umezawa's Sticks and see what they're really capable of. Of course then I'll be tempted to run that Sexy Kor Artificer that I've been avoiding for months now....

[comandantenorton83]

@anarki
I would play the scavenging ooze over Birds in the Mainboard. I tested it finally and all can say is that people who stated it's very useful were absolutly right. You might win the KotR wars all the the time and it makes the matchup against dredge better in the first game, or even reanimator if they have a bad start...
About the Vindicate: I didn't miss them so far. Sure there are situations were it would be awesome to have a copy in your hand. But so far Jitte does a better job against all kind of decks.

As for the Sideboard I would say
-1 ooze (Going to main)
-2 plague
-1 pridemage
+2 Enlightened Tutor (I just love it and totally fits)
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph (against Reanimator, RUG, copy tarmogoyf... and EE can tutor it)
+1 Ethersworn Canonist (hello Combo ;)... also EE target)

Good luck on the SCG and have fun!

Sorry, but... what is EE? I assume it is not Engineered explosives, it seems to be like enlightened tutor, but not very sure.

Thanks.

[sdematt]

I played Rock in the Misstep meta and placed 3rd, only losing to Stoneblade by bricking on land-drops (I literally drew 4 lands those 2 games, and each hand was a 2-lander. I didn't get there).

Had I drawn mana, I would have beat the eventual winner. Oh well. My breakers did suck, since one person I beat, dropped. Darn.

My new list is attempting to be quick and dirty. No fudging around with Chains anymore (although, that card was the nuts against Stoneblade, I swear they banned it so I couldn't play Chains profitably...). Balls to walls, loading up on Goyfs, Confidants, SFM, and Knights. Threat density + lots of removal.

4 Goyf
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight

4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 IoK/Duress

2 Equipment
3 Top
3 Vindicate
4 Swords
2 GSZ/Path (Path seems better in a faster meta)

Board:

1 Meta-Sword
2 Metamorph
2 Path
2 Deed
3 Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Bog
1 Tariff

If I'm running GSZ, I'd obviously run a GSZ board with Teeg and Ooze. Obv. :wink:

-Matt

[Treehouse]

@anaki
Si, i meant Enlightened Tutor. Sorry for the typo
Doing nightshift and reply to some posts is not very healthy :).

[Elminister]

What is everyone's strategy vs. Maverick? It seems very hard to stop all their threats from staying on board and they can put out a decent clock thanks to acceleration GSZ and / or Noble Hierarch provide them.

[berry]

Game 1 you'll simply have to try to out-removal them... Which isn't easy, if you have Pulses maindeck it will help, same with Vindicates of course. Use tricks like Ooze and MD Bojuka Bog to win Knight-wars. If you're in SFM Batterskull surely helps. If you're in GSZ MD Qasali helps.

Basically they have your build but alot faster and stronger. Game 2 and 3 _should_ be "easy" wins (a k a slightly favorable) with the amount of sweepers and point removal you'll bring in.

I doubt Maverick will survive the temposwitch coming up in legacy, but we'll see...

[Borealis]

Yeah Maverick is a similar plan to most creature-heavy decks that grind out the midgame with fatties: Remove Mox Diamonds for Pernicious Deeds and try and race them with card advantage and maybe a small dose of tempo to keep ahead of their threats. Outplaying them with Knight and Scavenging Ooze triggers (i.e. being a turn ahead of them) can help you come out on top. Also, my sideboard sports a single Darkblast and a single Gerrard's Verdict, which both could come in depending on the build they are running. Hitting their Green Sun's and reducing their handsize definitely helps, as does popping off their Nobles and Mothers and other x/1's. Phyrexian Metamorph is also available to some of us as a way of increasing our threat density, though the 2 life maybe rather relevant in this match.

[Qweerios]

Yesterday I took down a Stoneblade deck with Crucible of Worlds with massive land destruction. 3 Sinkhole 1 Vindicate 3 Wasteland, a KotR and a Goyf pierced through CoW and he never got to activate his SFM to lay that Batterskull he tutored. I played Rock with Mox and Dark Ritual and I have got to say that BoP is pretty underrated. My T2 are always devastating with a T1 Birds and Sinkhole really is valuable with Vindicate, Wasteland, KotR, and Hymn. Land destruction also makes discard so much more powerful.

[Borealis]

You run Mox, Dark Ritual, Mana Birds, and Sinkhole/Vindicate all in the same deck? Very interesting indeed... may I ask what the whole decklist looks like?

I won't lie though, I've considered picking up a few Sinkholes at some point to support a truly heavy mana-denial theme, but I think at that point I'd be Mono Black Pox splashing white perhaps... not so much a true Rock deck. Still, when the surprise factor is there, Sinkhole can win games.

[Qweerios]

I don't play all three in the same deck, I have played every version at some point in time. I posted my list a couple of pages back as a meta choice against NO decks. Here is the Rock list I have been playing since the banning of MM was anounced:


Creatures (16)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (19)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip


I just recently made the switch from Engineered Plague to Pernicious Deed and Sylvan Library to Sensei's Divining Top. I completely cut Qasali Pridemage in favor of Krosan Grip because the artifacts I need to remove are best answered at split second speed, Pridemage simply doesn't handle Counterbalance, Top, Batterskull, or any artifact/enchantments backed by counterspells for that matter.

[KobeBryan]

I played Rock in the Misstep meta and placed 3rd, only losing to Stoneblade by bricking on land-drops (I literally drew 4 lands those 2 games, and each hand was a 2-lander. I didn't get there).

Had I drawn mana, I would have beat the eventual winner. Oh well. My breakers did suck, since one person I beat, dropped. Darn.

My new list is attempting to be quick and dirty. No fudging around with Chains anymore (although, that card was the nuts against Stoneblade, I swear they banned it so I couldn't play Chains profitably...). Balls to walls, loading up on Goyfs, Confidants, SFM, and Knights. Threat density + lots of removal.

4 Goyf
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight

4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 IoK/Duress

2 Equipment
3 Top
3 Vindicate
4 Swords
2 GSZ/Path (Path seems better in a faster meta)

Board:

1 Meta-Sword
2 Metamorph
2 Path
2 Deed
3 Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Bog
1 Tariff

If I'm running GSZ, I'd obviously run a GSZ board with Teeg and Ooze. Obv. :wink:

-Matt

This deck looks really good. How do you deal with combo?

[sdematt]

9 Pieces of Discard and Extirpate. Other than that, GSZ version can run Teeg.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

9 Pieces of Discard and Extirpate. Other than that, GSZ version can run Teeg.

-Matt

You don't ever find that 9 pieces of discard to not be enough against a combo deck?

[sdematt]

It's certainly better than nothing. I'm not going to run 15 pieces since that's just ludicrous. The whole plan is, disruption + clock can hopefully get me there before they can go off.

-Matt

[Avatara]

It's certainly better than nothing. I'm not going to run 15 pieces since that's just ludicrous. The whole plan is, disruption + clock can hopefully get me there before they can go off.

-Matt
Sounds like Eva Green to me...

[sdematt]

And that's why we're in this thread, and Eva Green isn't.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

guys i have been wondering if anyone tried liliana of the veil, in the team america thread there is a lot of talk about her, and a few people have even replaced jace with her, and in other black-deck she gets a lot of attention as well, as she seems to help a lot against combo and controll with her +1 ability

i could see her fit in well in a shell with moxen and maybe 2 loams, so we can constantly break symmetry without a drawback from her +1 ability
her -2 ability is quite nice too, alltough not really good against swarming decks, but against midrange decks with a low to moderate threat-count it would be quite awesome by gaining the upper hand on the field and than having it quite easy to protect her for a few turns until the next threat of the opponent is ready to die
only thing i think will rarely see play is her ultimate, since with the other ones we should be able to win the game by then

i have no testings with her, as i do not jet posses any copies of this ridiculously beautiful card, so till now this is just a bit of brainstorming

so what do you guys think?

[Borealis]

Qweerios, nice list. Seems pretty evilly hellbent on the LD theme, which I like, and it's also quite streamlined. Playing with 4 Manabirds instead of any Mox Diamonds seems like a reasonable way to get ahead, especially with 4x Sinkholes ready to go on turn 2 most of the time. I like Mox Diamond since they are hard to remove, but not having to lose a card in your opener does have obvious benefits. I'd probably run 4x Thoughseize and 3x Sinkhole as a minor change, considering Combo is bound to return in the coming weeks, but otherwise I like the theme. If I can get my hands on some cheapo Sinkholes I'll give it a shot.

Avatar/Avatra: what exactly are you guys getting at here? 9 Discard spells with some Extirpates in the SB seems pretty damn strong against combo. More than that and yeah, it's really just ridiculous and terrible in many other matchups. There are other ways to fight combo, and those can be addressed in the board if need be, but I'm pretty sure we have decent game against them already. Eva Green and Junk are similar decks so....... point?

AggroSteve, I definitely think Liliana is worth giving a shot in Junk, and no doubt we will see her in the near future in successful Legacy builds. I think the strongest place to put her might be into a Buried Alive theme, or possibly a Pox list splashing a color or two, but I will be interested to see if anyone can generate a Top 8 finish with her running a relatively classic Junk-style deck. I'll be searching out my playset either way as soon as is financially viable. The artwork only makes collecting the playset of her even more rewarding....

[Borealis]

And we are back on the map again folks! Thirteenth place with 4x Stoneforge Mystic backed by Batterskull and Jitte, in a field full of Combo decks!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41101

[KobeBryan]

And we are back on the map again folks! Thirteenth place with 4x Stoneforge Mystic backed by Batterskull and Jitte, in a field full of Combo decks!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41101

I like it, but 25 lands without mox diamond?

[muscleb]

I like it, but 25 lands without mox diamond?

Durdling around with Stoneforge and equipments is really mana intensive, and Mox Diamond doesn't give you more mana, it just accelerates your landdrops for the price of one card.
I think it is indeed possible to make The Rock without moxes, it will give you less nut draws, but also increase the consistancy of the deck(fewer dead topdecks, more business spells).

Anyway, I am not really convinced that Stoneforge Mystic is the way with this kind of meta: Combo and Reanimator. Maindeck Ooze and Teeg with Zenith and 5-6 onedrop discard+4 hymn.

[berry]

I agree with muscleb here... I just don't see how Batterskull is more effective than Ooze/Teeg/Pridemage main, in a meta like this (Reanimator was the most played archetype, unless you pack ANT and TES as the same - then they were played about as much as Reanimator).

I like the idea of playing 2 extra TS's in IOK or Duress - I'll have a problem cutting shit though...

[JACO]

I like it, but 25 lands without mox diamond?
I helped Fisher design this deck, and I'll give you guys a brief rundown on the manabase. Both he and I hate Mox Diamond in these decks, where you really just want all of your spells to provide maximum value, because you're not doing anything unfair in Legacy to begin with, unlike High Tide, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Ad Nauseam, etc. If you're going to play a fair deck you need to make every spell count, and Mox Diamond is the absolute worst topdeck in these style decks.


Durdling around with Stoneforge and equipments is really mana intensive, and Mox Diamond doesn't give you more mana, it just accelerates your landdrops for the price of one card.
I think it is indeed possible to make The Rock without moxes, it will give you less nut draws, but also increase the consistancy of the deck(fewer dead topdecks, more business spells).

Anyway, I am not really convinced that Stoneforge Mystic is the way with this kind of meta: Combo and Reanimator. Maindeck Ooze and Teeg with Zenith and 5-6 onedrop discard+4 hymn.The problem with the typical reaction from a tournament won by Reanimator is that "the whole metagame is Reanimator and Ad Nauseam." It's not. Legacy is super diverse, and "durdling around with" Stoneforge helps crush all of the aggro decks that you'd otherwise have sketchy game against. Again, the thinking is get maximum value out of each card you play.

Fisher went 3-0 vs Reanimator at the SCG, 1-0 vs Chris VanMeter with Hive Mind, 1-0 vs Doomsday, 0-1 vs the TES player who made top 8 (after mulling to 5 in both games I believe), and his only other loss was to Elves combo that made Top 16 I believe. I can't remember what his other two wins were against.

There's a couple of slots that should be changed around with Reanimator in mind, but that's what evolution of the deck is for each week depending on what you think you're going to face. Just remember, when in doubt, play good cards and not Mox Diamond.

[berry]

The question is not of SFM vs Moxen but SFM vs GSZ.

GSZ is a good card.

I've been running both with and without Moxen for a while and have nothing against cutting it for the right reasons.

That Reanimator and storm-combo were the most played lists is a fact, obviously this does not mean it's the only one you will face.

What I'd like to hear about is:
1. In what way do you feel the GSZ-list would falter against the faster aggro-decks (let's say ZO, new horizons and... goblins?).
2. What made him run so good vs storm, with a list that doesn't bolster much stuff against the decks in question.

[AggroSteve]

i would think the tidehollow skullers in the sideboard would help a lot against storm, teeg most of the time would catch a slaughter pact, where tidehollow skuller can not be targeted by it

in addiction of taking a card from them, tidehollow skuller even presents a bit of a clock, and if supplemented with equipment (SFM-package) i believe he can really be helpfull against combo

congrats on the finish btw.

[berry]

I agree that Tidehollow's seem like a nice answer. Would work decently with ET too.

[muscleb]

Yeah, grats on the finish.

I would love to hear how the Stoneforge actually played out in games. Where there alot of aggro, and the "slow" play of stoneforge didn't get you in trouble against combo.

Now is the time to play Bojuka Bog main with so many players chanting the snapcaster mantra.

[sdematt]

Glad to see people support me in not playing Mox Diamonds. I knew I was on to something :)

Congrats on the finish. Jaco, maybe we should work together, jeez. It's not like you don't know me :P

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Did 4x SFM ever feel like too much with only 2 equips to grab? I always feel like she's a miserable top-deck when I've already got my equipment in hand or in play.

Also, how to stop Flash-less Hulk combo? I feel like that whole chain of events should be disruptible to some extent with an StP. Does exiling the sac outlet in response to the Reveillark trigger work?

[sdematt]

Extirpate in response to the return from graveyard trigger also works, but most of the time, you'll have some stuff Cabal Therapied. I'd attempt to keep Extirpate on top and use Top to flip it when the moment is right.

Also, remember that they can just Natural Order into Protenitus, so don't forget to bring some Progenitus hate from the board, as well.

Grave-hate in general hurts them very much.

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Extirpate in response to the return from graveyard trigger also works, but most of the time, you'll have some stuff Cabal Therapied. I'd attempt to keep Extirpate on top and use Top to flip it when the moment is right.

Also, remember that they can just Natural Order into Protenitus, so don't forget to bring some Progenitus hate from the board, as well.

Grave-hate in general hurts them very much.

-Matt

Yeah the situation with Extirpate was more clear, I was just wondering if a single StP is enough to buy you another turn, or if they still have some line of play available that I'm missing (assuming only 1 sac outlet in play).

[sdematt]

I think a well-timed STP can possibly screw up the combo, I'm just trying to figure out when... :P

-Matt

[warai]

I helped Fisher design this deck, and I'll give you guys a brief rundown on the manabase. Both he and I hate Mox Diamond in these decks, where you really just want all of your spells to provide maximum value, because you're not doing anything unfair in Legacy to begin with, unlike High Tide, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Ad Nauseam, etc. If you're going to play a fair deck you need to make every spell count, and Mox Diamond is the absolute worst topdeck in these style decks.

The problem with the typical reaction from a tournament won by Reanimator is that "the whole metagame is Reanimator and Ad Nauseam." It's not. Legacy is super diverse, and "durdling around with" Stoneforge helps crush all of the aggro decks that you'd otherwise have sketchy game against. Again, the thinking is get maximum value out of each card you play.

Fisher went 3-0 vs Reanimator at the SCG, 1-0 vs Chris VanMeter with Hive Mind, 1-0 vs Doomsday, 0-1 vs the TES player who made top 8 (after mulling to 5 in both games I believe), and his only other loss was to Elves combo that made Top 16 I believe. I can't remember what his other two wins were against.

There's a couple of slots that should be changed around with Reanimator in mind, but that's what evolution of the deck is for each week depending on what you think you're going to face. Just remember, when in doubt, play good cards and not Mox Diamond.

You play Mox Diamond in order to get nuts draw with T1 Hymn or T1 Confidant.

[sdematt]

The sometimes nuts draw, the sometimes awkward hand with a turn 1 awesome, turn 2 through X stall play.

-Matt

[2Rach]

@Fisher's list:
Why no Canopies and/or Maze?

[2Rach]

@JACO:
Why no Canopies and/or Maze?

[damionblackgear]

I think a well-timed STP can possibly screw up the combo, I'm just trying to figure out when... :P

-Matt

You can aim the STP at the sac outlet with the reanimate trigger on the stack. Not really many other openings before that and you have to either rfg the sac outlet or the hulk after that. If you just kill it, they'll just finish going off.

Edit: or just before the end step trigger.

[makochman]

You play Mox Diamond in order to get nuts draw with T1 Hymn or T1 Confidant.

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

[KobeBryan]

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

Thats what i'm saying. anything above 23 lands without mox is asking for bad topdecks.

[Seems Good]

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

x2 to that whole post. The advantage gained by an explosive turn 1 land, mox, hymn x% of the time far outweighs the disadvantage of occasionally drawing into a mox y% of the time IMO..which shouldn't happen that much if you're playing 3x top.

[Nelis]

I would argue the opposite. The disadvantage of drawing a mox later in the game OR have an openingshand with only a mox and one land outweighs the advantage of an ocassional turn 1 Hymn. I've never understood running moxen in a 23 land build. If you consistently want to go mox, land, hymn, you basically need 4 moxen and more land than 23 but this means running less spells that actually do something.

[damionblackgear]

I think there's too much emphasis on Hymning on turn 1. If that's all people want to do, why aren't they playing Eva Green, Old School Dead Guy, or even the O.G. Suicide Black? At least with those decks, you could more consistently play a hymn on turn 1 alongside a Duress or Thoughseize.

I've kept the Moxen in my list because they allowed with an additional way to achieve color consistency and a stronger base vs Moon/Wasteland effects. Even if Dragon Stompy isn't around as much anymore (if at all, to be honest I haven't seen it in months) that doesn't mean that other decks won't adopt moon effects. It's kind of like Dredge - You stop respecting it, you get rolled by it.

As far as there being 25 lands, so what? It's OK. It's not like it was bad. Just look at where the deck placed if you need proof. The fact that it placed so well in a combo heavy meta is amazing. My hat's off to that finish in that mata. The 2 lands + 1 spell could easily be Moxen. Or they could be something else. They opted for more lands to cast spells with. All of you should know how having your manabase hurts this deck (sometimes it seems like it hurts us more than others). Their fix was more lands.

Lastly, the late game topdecked Mox is terrible but, so is the land. That's why there are Bobs, Tops, and Libraries to help with those situations. Sometimes you do not have any of the before mentioned and you find out just how strong your own topdecks are compared to your opponent's. Lists with 25 lands will be a little more consistent than lists with 23 and 3 Moxen (that's 25;26 mana sources in each deck respectively). So they should have the edge but, that doesn't mean they won't just get flooded and have to outplay their opponent... wait we're playing rock. It's a decision tree based deck. We have to do that anyway.

[Seems Good]

I think there's too much emphasis on Hymning on turn 1. If that's all people want to do, why aren't they playing Eva Green, Old School Dead Guy, or even the O.G. Suicide Black? At least with those decks, you could more consistently play a hymn on turn 1 alongside a Duress or Thoughseize.


Because I want to play Turn 1 Hymn, then play SFM, KoTR, and/or Goyf, along with STP. This is the only deck that allows that. I find a lot of value in playing a balanced midrange deck that also has potential for explosiveness with Mox D.