[Deck] The Rock [Archive] - Page 9

damionblackgear

10-07-2011, 02:30 PM

But The Rock is all that Eva Green always wanted to be!

I know that's a joke but I don't think are people aware that Rock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/pthou02/tech1) was a B/G ramp deck. Ramping with Birds of Paradise, Yavamaya Elder, and the like to play large threats the impacted the board quickly. The last Rock decks that I remember seeing played Spirit Monger as a finisher. Then it became popular to maximize on threats instead of Ramping. Thus, changing the decks playstyle and basic premise (a.k.a. We became a new deck). Mind you, this was an extended Deck as well.

We're also not PT Junk (http://www.mtgnews.com/showthread.php?t=48749) (although we are about as similar as T.E.S. to AnT) as it was an aggro deck that used creatures that would defend themselves (regeneration, protection, or be large) and usually ran 14+ (pseudo)creatures (Spectral Linx, River Boa, Simian Grunts, Call of the Herd). It could be best described as being Dead Guy splashing green (which that thread talked about for a while when every deck was trying to run Goyf). This was also an extended deck.

We got stuck with the name Rock because people couldn't differentiate between the different B/G/W lists and even PT Junk was called Rock (Hence the difference between Aggro Rock, Mid-Range Rock and Control Rock...) and that extended's card pool was very similar to Legacy's card pool for a long time. There was a time where you could play any B/G/W deck and you would be The Rock in either format.

There are actually other decks which were renamed as well due to the ignorance of players. The Truffle Shuffle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3816-Deck-The-Truffle-Shuffle&highlight=truffle+shuffle) was actually a control based deck that didn't use Blue. It was semi-successful but still respected enough to be considered when designing a deck.

Currently, Nic Fit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)) is also being considered a Rock deck (before it's even been really run into the world). Oh. Wait... Ramping into a threat... and maintaining position via disruption... That is the closest there is to an active Rock list... I personally like this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=592765&viewfull=1#post592765) and would use that as a starting point if I was going to play this deck... even if it is splashing for Gifts Ungiven.

Technically, because most of us haven't fought it, we're now The Rock, PT Junk, and Dark Horizons (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35502). Or are we This one? (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37412)

Just figured I'd give a quick history lesson.

Seems Good

10-08-2011, 07:53 PM

KobeBryan

10-08-2011, 08:48 PM

Top 8'ed a local 40 man tourney today, running my SFM/no GSZ/3 Mox list. Went X-1 and drew into top 8 with my only loss to UW Landstill. He absolutely crushed me 0-2. Of course I got paired against him again in Top 8 and was blown out again 0-2. What are people running in the board against this deck? I know it's not that prevalent anymore, but it seemed like I just absolutely scooped to this build...granted my SB was almost completely geared vs. storm combo and reanimator so I didn't really have anything good against him.

Its just one of those inherently bad matchups like zoo v. merfolk. Whatever you board in, its still a bad matchup.

Give up on the match and focus your attention to other decks that you have a chance of beating. And pray you don't end up paired with him.

sdematt

10-08-2011, 09:29 PM

What, are you kidding me? UW Stoneforge is a perfectly acceptable matchup. But, you need Grips. Chains makes the matchup insanely favourable, and Thrun helps out a lot. SoLaS also rapes here.

-Matt

KobeBryan

10-08-2011, 09:33 PM

Seems Good

10-08-2011, 09:54 PM

What, are you kidding me? UW Stoneforge is a perfectly acceptable matchup. But, you need Grips. Chains makes the matchup insanely favourable, and Thrun helps out a lot. SoLaS also rapes here.

-Matt

I agree with Avatar...I have a tough time with the Stoneblade variant and an even harder time with the walkers only variant. I could imagine chains being could but I dont think one outlier matchip alone warrants SB slots.

The problem was he had an answer for every single play I made and insane card advantage with standstills/jaces/cantrips. Maybe it was this particular build but every single game I played vs. this guy we both just sat there with empty boards (except he had 1-2 factories that he chipped away at me with). Any time I cast stuff it got countered or STP'd/WoG'd within the turn. Just seems like a horrible matchup. Luckily it's not that popular of a deck.

Also, I think grips are mediocre here. No point in gripping standstill, and EE/Crucible he just gets back with Academy Ruins..

Treehouse

10-08-2011, 10:42 PM

I was running Fishers list (from SCG) for testing and I kinda love this deck. I just made one change and cut one fetch land and replaced it with Bojuka Bog.
So far the Deck runs really smooth against, Zoo. UGX(-NO) or Merfolk. Batterskull is simply the answer to these decks Pre-Board. I also tested it against TES, Dredge and High Tide. While High Tide was pretty close, TES just rips the balls off while Dredge is still a good Matchup. Pre-Board you have a small chance with Bojuka Bog and Batterskull but you still have to be very lucky. With the given Sideboard it was no big deal in the end. Back to TES: Even with Thoughtseize, Hymn and Wasteland he finished me off in his 4th turn... Pre-Board of course. A short look into the SB.. nope, no answers. High Tide was pretty much the same.
So, while this Deck has a good chance against all aggro and most Reanimator or Dredge Matchups I see no chance against Combo (even Elves) if you wanna go with the SFM package.
I totally miss Extirpate in certain situations but unfortunatly I don't see any place for them. Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amethyst might be a proper solution against combo... Null Rod as well since it handles LED, Caldebra, Chrome Mox etc. In the end it leads again to Enlightened Tutor SB.

@Seems Good
against Landstill or other Blue Control Decks Choke might be a good choice. If you run ET add 1 only to your SB, otherwise 2. Or add more Discard and Extirpates. Grip is not needed anymore I guess.

sdematt

10-08-2011, 11:22 PM

Are we talking about the same deck? I'm assuming we're talking U/w Stoneblade here. If we're talking Thopters, then Deed is basically your godsend, here.

Yes, sometimes they get the nuts and you can't keep up, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But, if you have discard, pressure, and removal, you should be okay. It's not a matchup I love seeing with Rock (it's more fun with Aggro Loam, where you literally crush them to pieces), but I never had a problem with it, even when it was brand new at the GP.

Again, not saying I love it, but it's not abysmal like High Tide (which is more boring than anything preboard).

-Matt

Treehouse

10-09-2011, 12:22 AM

Top 8'ed a local 40 man tourney today, running my SFM/no GSZ/3 Mox list. Went X-1 and drew into top 8 with my only loss to UW Landstill. He absolutely crushed me 0-2. Of course I got paired against him again in Top 8 and was blown out again 0-2. What are people running in the board against this deck? I know it's not that prevalent anymore, but it seemed like I just absolutely scooped to this build...granted my SB was almost completely geared vs. storm combo and reanimator so I didn't really have anything good against him.

Since SeemsGood only said UW Landstill in that one, I didn't think of StoneBlade or anything :). Nevertheless Choke is always a good choice in SB I think. Then again lets wait for the Legacy Results from SCG Nashville. Hopefully another Rock list makes it to the tops.

myselves

10-09-2011, 02:00 AM

I finished 4-1-2 in a tournament with 78 participants yesterday, playing the following list:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith

3 SDT
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

2 Deed
2 Vindicate
4 TS
4 Hymn
1 Duress
4 StoP

4 SFM
4 KotR
4 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant

//sideboard:
2 Null Rod
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crypt
1 Deed

2-0 vs. ANT
0-2 vs. Lands
1-1-1 vs. Bant
2-0 vs. Blade Control I assume (have seen Shackles, SFM, CB+Top, Swrd of the Meek)
1-1-1 vs. Stax (Game 3 I'm on 61 life but without anything on the board while he is down to 8 life but has Crucible+Smokestack+Trinisphere, then the turns are called and we draw)
2-0 vs. Deadguy
2-0 vs. RWB Aggro (have seen Cnfidants, Grunt, Steppe Lynx and lots of removal)

I could probably specify this later, if I'm wanted to do so.

The deck was consistent all day long, the only bad draws were against Bant (found not a single piece of Removal in G3 but had Top+Confi online for aeons -.-) but shit hapens from time to time.

I'm curios how you would board against Stax, I did the following (or at least something similar):
Game 2 (I had won G1): out Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 3 SDT (7) // in 2 Sculler,2 Null Rod, Deed, 2 Grip (7)
Game 3 (I had lost G2): out 4 STP (4) // in 3 Thoughtseize, Duress (4)

Was I to afraid of Chalice on 1 in Game 2?

berry

10-09-2011, 04:35 AM

KobeBryan

10-09-2011, 05:16 AM

Matt: UW Landstill is neither StoneBlade nor Thopters - it's UW Landstill. Standstill, Jace, Mishras, Crucible, removal en-masse.

To be fair I'd say UW StoneBlade is an abyssmal matchup too if you don't have the correct board.

standstill to me is not blade control nor thopter. It is 34 counters standstill and jace.

No way in hell can you beat that deck.

Derayler

10-09-2011, 06:11 AM

Does this deck have any way of beating standstill decks? They have too many answers to our 8 threats that can kill them in the tradtitional build. To me it seems like hymn you? Ok you jusr draw three next turn. Isn't it better to put that match down as a more than likely loss and prepare ourselves for decks we can realistically beat?

kubalonek

10-09-2011, 06:13 AM

Post-board against UW Thrun is so amazing card. If your meta is heavy with this kind of control decks try two in sideboard.

berry

10-09-2011, 07:27 AM

Avatar: That's exactly what I said..?

kubalonek: I agree that it's great, but they will most likely have WoG, I think. But yeah, I roll with Thrun for my GSZ, always. :)

sdematt

10-09-2011, 11:53 AM

What Standstill based decks are you referring to? The best way to beat Standstill is by blowing it with Hymn or something.

Sure, they'll have WoG, but it doesn't mean they'll have everything for your everything. 34 counters + jace + standstill isn't unbeatable, but I'm not saying if they have T1 Force for your anything into Standstill into a hand full of counters you'll win. No deck will. Even against Stoneblade back when they played 15 counters, they can't have it all. Again, Chains is good against Standstill/Brainstorm/Jace. If Standstill comes back, setting up Chains again isn't a bad idea. It was better with Visions, since you had 4 turns to go off.

Again, Thrun is good in that matchup. Basically, you have to grind advantage as much as possible with discard and your card manipulation. If it's really a problem deck for your meta, you'll have to change the build and run different stuff. Maybe you'll have to run Revokers, or MB Thrun, etc.

If you were really running into tons of trouble with a deck like UW Standstill, I'm wondering why. a) Why is it being played without Mental Misstep (which really made the deck good), b) Why is the person playing the deck...in general?

I guess if you really wanted to hose the matchup:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Touarch
4 Life from the Loam
4 Choke
1 Worm Harvest

In all honesty though, if you were running into a ton of Mono Blue, I'd run a more Zoo-like build with GSZ, Ooze, Qasali, Thrun, and grips in the board.

Board: (assuming 2-3 Qasali main, 1-2 Teeg main, 4 GSZ)

4 Choke
2 Grip
3 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
+ other

I mean, I could run against the deck more to try and help, but it honestly never comes up locally or even in the States where I play at times. The deck honestly isn't amazing against most of the format, so I don't think there's tons to worry about. There is a reason why Stoneblade was played and Landstill never took off after the switch.

Honestly, in most tournaments now, you'll run into/should be prepared for:

NO RUG
Stoneblade (since some people will still try to make both work)
Junk mirror (apparently, more people play this than I think...)
Merfolk
Goblins
Zoo
CounterTop Thopter
Tempo Thresh/Midrangy stuff
Team America/Esper America
Dreadstill (maybe?)
TES
High Tide/43 Lands/Expensive.deck
Bant
Stax (there's usually one person playing it, this is EASILY dealt with by playing Deeds, Vindicate, Teeg, and Qasali)
Painter

We're well positioned against most, but not all, of those decks. Are we 70/30 against them? No, but we're at least got a decent shot against most of them. Sure, 43 lands or High Tide can be a beating, but if you find me a deck that's 70% against all of those, there's a cookie in it for you.

-Matt

Seems Good

10-09-2011, 02:51 PM

Matt: UW Landstill is neither StoneBlade nor Thopters - it's UW Landstill. Standstill, Jace, Mishras, Crucible, removal en-masse.

To be fair I'd say UW StoneBlade is an abyssmal matchup too if you don't have the correct board.

Correct, I was not talking about UW Stoneblade, I was talking about exactly what berry described here. Unfortunately I took the Chokes out of my board for this event because, frankly, I don't think theyre as relevant in this meta, but who knows.

I hear a ton of good things about Extirpate, I may have to consider making space in my SB..

berry

10-09-2011, 04:21 PM

I think the point here may actually be how lol of a deck UW Landstill is these days - you won't have a board against it because it isn't played much.

Also: How can you possible forget Reanimator in your meta-list? Geez, Louise! ;)

Seems Good

10-09-2011, 07:23 PM

If you were really running into tons of trouble with a deck like UW Standstill, I'm wondering why. a) Why is it being played without Mental Misstep (which really made the deck good), b) Why is the person playing the deck...in general?

Matt, good questions - I think it was just a chance occurrence and I'm not worried about seeing this deck much in the near future. I was more so just posting to see if people had suggestions for 2-4 slots of my board that could afford to be dedicated to this deck considering how bad of a matchup it is. The guy that played this deck, in his words, "has been playing it for 6 years", throughout various metas and also plays a Vintage version, apparently with success. It's a pet deck that also happens to be pretty good. I don't think it's positioned very well in this format but it was good enough to wreck me and any other midrange that he ran in to.

Berry - I didn't forget reanimator, I sleeved up several SB slots for it. Do you really think Choke is that good against it?

sdematt

10-09-2011, 08:15 PM

The best cards against Reanimator are Thoughtseize, Duress, Extirpate, Extraction, Metamorph, Tariff, STP, and Path.

Sorry I forgot about Reanimator, only one guy plays it here. :P

-Matt

berry

10-10-2011, 01:22 AM

Seems Good: I was talking to matt. :)

Matt: You forgot Karakas! I thought Reanimator was finally gonna go big after Indy but didn't do well now in Nashville, how sad.

sdematt

10-10-2011, 03:00 AM

Can't believe I forgot Karakas. Silly me. Must be all the turkey and stuffing (Canadian Thanksgiving, woot!)

-Matt

crow_mw

10-10-2011, 07:43 AM

Just figured I'd give a quick history lesson.

This was largely ignored, but an interesting read nevertheless. Thanks for the lecture.

mrorange

10-10-2011, 01:05 PM

Don't forget about Bojuka Bog.

If Karakas is in hand against Reanimator should it be slow-rolled if you're not short on mana? If they have not used an Entomb they'll likely grab Angel of Despair or Terastodon. For reference I'm playing the Fisher list with a slightly different board.

sdematt

10-10-2011, 01:08 PM

I tihnk that's true: If you don't NEED the mana, wait.

Damion, I also liked the history lesson, I just didn't feel I needed to comment :P

-Matt

Seems Good

10-10-2011, 02:53 PM

Damion, I also liked the history lesson, I just didn't feel I needed to comment :P

x2

berry

10-10-2011, 03:49 PM

x3.

+ Yeah, always wait and fetch the Karakas in response to stuff with your Knight, don't have it laying around, reanimator WILL waste it, bye bye.

2Rach

10-10-2011, 04:33 PM

x3.

+ Yeah, always wait and fetch the Karakas in response to stuff with your Knight, don't have it laying around, reanimator WILL waste it, bye bye.
There are Reanimator decks with Wasteland?

I tihnk that's true: If you don't NEED the mana, wait.
I don't know, I always want to be prepared for Jin-Gitaxias. If I don't have removal, I want that Karakas up every turn.

KobeBryan

10-10-2011, 05:21 PM

There are Reanimator decks with Wasteland?

I don't know, I always want to be prepared for Jin-Gitaxias. If I don't have removal, I want that Karakas up every turn.

yea i've never seen it myself. Reanimators are very greedy with 17 lands. Stifles and wastelands are game for them. They can't afford to have a colorless.

mrorange

10-10-2011, 05:48 PM

By waste berry is saying they will destroy (i.e. waste) Karakas with an Angel of Despair or similar reanimation target.

damionblackgear

10-11-2011, 01:11 AM

Went 3-0-1 splitting with a buddy who was playing an almost identical list to the 25 land list from the SCG. He said he played against Merfolk (2x) and Mask Naught.

Round 1 vs Elves! (2-1)
Took Game 1 when opponent mulled to 5. I killed a couple mana producing elves and went to town with a sword wielding Bob. He was forced to block.
Game 2 I Sword'd a Nettle Sentential... We talked about this after. It was a mistake. After talking a little, I think I'm going to save removal for mana producing elves and Symbiote though. He took this one. Combo'd off the turn before I would've been able to drop a deed with 3 mana up.
Game 3 I Killed off his guys. He had a Zenith and 2 Green sun's, which he used to find lands. But I had an active Jitte. He didn't find an answer before the game was over.

Round 2 vs Folk (2-1)
Game 1 I Mox into TS (ps. he mulled to 5 so I was terrified of the curse). He shows me lord Cursecatcher lands. I take the lord. Then block the Cursecatcher with the arbor. Sword the next lord and proceed to turn dudes sideways.
Game 2 I keep a hand with no green or black. I have 2 Swords and a dismember. He wastes the white source (Karakas) and plays a Kira. I still haven't found another land so I scoop 'em up.
Game 3 I Remember killing everything and playing an Ooze... I think it was an Ooze. Either way, it was enough.

Round 3 vs Zoo (2-0)
Game 1 - He spends his time trying to kill my guys before they get out of control. I GSZ twice and stick the second Knight. She goes to town as I had removal for all of his stuff too.
Game 2 - I waste him down to 1 land (mountain) and Turn knight sideways with the team a couple turns and kill him. He shows me his hand of Bolt (2x), Helix (2x) and Fireblast... Top card? Plateau. the Batterskull was in my hand but I didn't play it because I misplayed a couple turns before with my mana and didn't take it back as I figured, whatever. I did it. I'll take the loss if it happens. Lucky for me, I didn't have to deal with the loss.

I don't know what all was there but...

2x Our Deck
2x Merfolk
1x Mask Naught
1x Zoo
1x Bant (don't know if it had NO and/or Mystic)
1x Elves!
1x Hightide (Permanent Waves)
1x Burn

Krondo9

10-11-2011, 04:43 AM

Hey guys,

So I've been testing the Mox-less build lately, to see if I can improve my threat density. i'm basically running brian fisher's maindeck, but I decided to cut 2 lands, making one of them a maze of ith, and the other a Sword (unsure which one so far, either BaM or FaF).

Can you guys explain to me why the deck would need 25 lands? i am running 24 and even that seems like way too much. Cutting Moxes doesnt really translate to playing more lands, since Moxes dont add to our land count, they just accelerate it. Im running 23 actual lands right now (and 1 Maze), and it seems more than fine. I would even consider adding another vindicate, although that card seems a bit clunky.

I'm just wondering what you guys think. Lands seems plentiful in this deck, and I'm still debating whether to run maze at all right now. It's great against decks with equipment and aggro decks in general, but terrible against combo and decks light on creatures/Control decks.

sdematt

10-11-2011, 03:25 PM

Running Maze and Karakas is pretty essential. 23-24 lands is pretty standard, because you want to consistently hit land drops, and have extra lands to chuck away for Knight.

Maze is so good because it beats up on creatures with Equipment, ad lets you get extra value out of the smaller number of creatures we run. It's VERY good.

-Matt

muscleb

10-11-2011, 07:47 PM

I find having alot of lands works well with this deck. Players should not underestimate how managreedy this deck is. SFM or GSM, both builds require ALOT of mana to function. There is no reason to just straight up lose to a single wasteland.
I can always find a way to use 5-6 mana in a single turn if you have a top in play for example. Playing alot of fetches together with top alows you to get shuffles and play threats in the same turn.

I like playing a good bunch of lands. I always feel like I can use the mana.

I appogise for for my english in advance

Krondo9

10-11-2011, 08:05 PM

Yeah i see what you mean. I'm debating between having my 24th land as either a Horizon Canopy, Windswept Heath, or Maze of Ith. I'm not running any moxes, and I'm currently using a canopy. However, I'm considering just going with the Heath for the reasons you stated, fresh draws with top. In addition, it helps to get a scrubland or Bayou and have a consistent turn 2 hymn.

mrorange

10-12-2011, 12:25 PM

muscleb

10-12-2011, 03:21 PM

The game is a long attrition war, I like cards like Bojuga Bog, Deed, Volrath's stronghold. Getting a top going is key to winning such a game, finding threats and answers.
With GSZ you get acces to cards like Ooze, Thrun, Terravore. Also getting "more" knights that your opponent with GSZ.

damionblackgear

10-12-2011, 03:40 PM

I played against a GSZ Rock build using the Fisher/Jaco deck (SFM package). I replaced a scrubland with a birds of paradise in the maindeck. All of our games went long and my opponent won both. I felt like the games revolved around KotR and who could get her to stick. KotR allows access to the utility lands that can change the game and gets so big that Tarmogoyf is irrelevant. My rough evaluation is the GSZ Rock is better head to head against the SFM Rock because it has access to more knights. Does anyone who has played this matchup more have any thoughts?

I haven't played against the 25 land list but, It would appear that the lack of card advantage/selection may also have something to do with the list. I've found that, when playing against other Rock styled decks, card selection becomes a huge matter. Cards like Dark Confidant, Top, and Library have more value in these matches as when compared to others.

The reason is that this deck runs more removal that other decks. Typically, we run against 4-6 pieces of removal. So the limited number of threats we run, and lack of protection for them, makes it so that the ability to have some choice in cards (threat or answer) gains more value.

The GSZ lists are also able to select a moderate threat (one that must be removed but not detrimental to your own plan) to force the removal. Doing so increases the chance at the larger threats surviving. I know I don't need to say this but, the longer some creatures survive, the more value they get (Knight, Ooze, Bob). GSZ lists have the ability to select other threats to 'sacrifice' for the greater good.

Borealis

10-12-2011, 03:57 PM

Krondo9, I currently run 24 lands, 1 of which is a Maze, and although there are times when Maze is a relative blank, it pays off all those times when you fetch it up with KoTR and bounce back from a tight spot. Against combo and other decks where it's not so great, it's an easy card to board out.

Also, I've been on the fence for awhile about whether to run 2 or 3 Vindicate. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it is a bit clunky, especially in multiples. I'm running 2 right now, which feels fine with the Tops and all that digging me into them when needed.

What's your list like right now?

sdematt

10-13-2011, 12:11 AM

Right now, I'm running 3 Vindicate, but I *may* cut to 2 beacuse of all the aggro (which is a matchup where you're boarding it out). I'm also contemplating running 4 Path between the main and the side, just to shove it to those crazy aggro decks.

I want to include GSZ again, but Tarmogoyf is too good to cut (in the sense that he's a huge wall against stuff like Lackey, smaller creatures, etc.) and really does pack the beef.

I'm also running SoFaI, again, to shit on Goblins and Merfolk, and another piece of equipment: Jitte. Helps us get around Kira again, and more Equipment isn't bad with fewer creatures.

Right now, I'm thinking:

4 SFM
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 Knight

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
3 Top
3 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
2 Path

but I really want:

4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 SFM
4 Bob
1 Ooze
1 Birds
1 Thrun

1 BS
1 Sword

4 Swords
2-3 GSZ
2 Vindicate
3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn

Hard to fit it all in, is the main problem. Boo for playing colours with so much good stuff.

-Matt

Krondo9

10-13-2011, 02:53 AM

@Borealis I currently am still working on a list, however, here are some thoughts that I have about the current deck:

1. The choice between stoneforge and green sun is pretty dependent on the metagame. While our local metagame is more combo/midrange heavy, I believe GSZ type builds are more solid, or anything with more green basically. Obviously it loses to perish, but having gaddock teeg is awesome, and having multiple creatures off GSZ is great. While our decks thin out, the number of threats actually increases in our deck due to GSZ. I also tested Volrath's Stronghold for a while, but I am not sure if I will actually use it.

2. Stoneforge is really good against aggro IMO, since it can get you jitte and batterskull. I've never had much of a problem with zoo playing any GSZ deck, since knight trumps anything in their deck basically. However, our local also has burn decks occasionally, which are a nightmare for Junk (As evident by Brian Kibler losing to some random novice playing burn in the latest SCG Open)

3. I am also unsure about the Mox situation. It is great only in our opening hand basically, and afterwards it just gets worse and worse. While having a T1 Bob is the ideal scenario, I am unsure if it is really good, since it is card disadvantage. Also, Kibler's latest list only ran 2 Moxes, which maks me wonder if thats a build worth trying.

4. All in all, I think this deck definitely deserves some solid testing. I test regularly on cockatrice, as well as at the LGS. If any of you play on cockatrice, please reply with your username and I will add you. I have had more success in the past with a GSZ-based build, but will continuing to test to see what is the ideal deck. Unfortunately, we cant win them all :)

Qweerios

10-13-2011, 04:41 PM

As an experienced GWb Maverick and Rock/Junk player, I think that GSZ is far superior to SFM. The big difference between Mav and Junk is all about wether you choose to play GSZ+SFM or Hymn to Tourach. I have been switching back and forth between both archetypes in my very bypolar meta which is comprised mainly of either a majority of combo with few control decks, or a majority of aggro with a few control decks. I think the hierarchy of cards to play in Junk decks goes as follow:

-Dark Confidant: a ticking time bomb that has to be answered, our most powerful asset.

-Green Sun's Zenith: the most versatile card you can play, a cost-effective tutor that increases our threat density and fetches silver bullets.

-Hymn to Tourach: one of the most unfair cards you can play early. Hymn can outright win us a match and is never a losing trade. Can be a dead card in later stages and wars of attrition (rare scenarios).

-Stoneforge Mystic: dominates aggro and aggro/control matchups on its own with built-in card advantage. She fixes some of the health issues that can arise midgame from Bob, TS, and of course, your opponent beating your face. She is, however, worthless against combo decks.

With that being said, I don't think we can incorporate all of those cards in a single deck and SFM is the first thing I would cut. I think we should discuss Hymn vs SFM rather than GSZ vs SFM.

Cards like KotR, Vindicate, and Thoughtseize are pretty much auto-includes in every respectable Junk deck. They are easy inclusions that don't shape your deck any differently than another Junk/Rock/Mav deck.

I am currently satisfied with my current list and I favor Hymn over SFM for a few reasons:

-Hymn affects every archetype except Dredge
-Artifact hate is dead against me
-I can play my own global Artifact Hate

Creatures (18)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (19)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Karakas

I use Stony Silence over Null Rod and Serenity because it is harder to hate on than Null Rod and affects Combo decks more than Serenity. CoP: Red is my second Progenitus hate card (along with Metamorph) and gives me a chance against Burn, which is difficult without SFM and relies heavily on early Hymns. Dredge and Reanimator are extremely easy for this deck to handle. This sideboard also offers good combo hate to complement Gaddock/GSZ. The aggro matchup is a bit tougher than it used to be with SFM but it is still heavily hated with 10 Removal spells and KotR, Goyf, and Witness.

Any suggestions for improvement?

dsck

10-13-2011, 05:26 PM

Any suggestions for improvement?

I agree with the direction you are taking the deck. I would play more BoPs instead of Nobles, they enable Hymns and Vindicates easier. 1 Gaea's Gradle woud also be nice to fetch with Knight. I'd also try to squeeze Jittes and Liliana the Veil there somewhere, its completely nuts against Reanimator (they usually name white with Iona).

List for reference:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize (the split with IoK you had might work as well)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

muscleb

10-13-2011, 05:27 PM

Overall I agree with Qweerios. Stoneforge Mystic is best backed up by counterspells.

Your list doesn't have top, I think it's a key card in Rock. I also like Jitte and you could maybe cut 1 Vindicate. Otherwise I am not really sold on Hierarchs and the Witness.
Other cards to consider in your sideboard: Pernicious Deed, Dueling Grounds, Thrun the trollface.

I had some ok results with mother of runes, the card is really good together with the silver bullets. For example: I played turn 1 discard, turn 2mom, turn 3 GSZ-> Teeg against Time Spiral and he was just cold to it. Same with lists playing snapcaster mage, sure they get to reuse the StP, but mom will protect your guys, even more brutal with ooze in play. The card can be a devastating and just a blank at other times. I am going to play a bit more with Mom in a GSZ list without Vindicates/Pulse, I shall report my findings in this thread.

mrorange

10-13-2011, 06:53 PM

Hey Qweerios. Would replacing a Pridemage with a Tarmogoyf (leaving you with one silver bullet Pridemage) help shore up aggro matchups a bit? I am planning on using a GSZ list in the very near future. The Enlightened Tutor board is interesting. You might consider fitting a Choke into your SB. If you have chance can you outline your SB ins and outs for common match ups?

Krondo9

10-13-2011, 11:12 PM

Qweerios I just tested out your list. I really like the krosan grips and the eternal witness. I hadn't really thought of her, but I think she might be one of the best silver bullets we can have right now, since people dont see it coming at all. its good card advantage as well, netting us either a threat or removal alongside a 2/1 body. I will continue testing this. I havent faced aggro yet, although I still kind of like umezawa's jitte, but I will try out the paths instead.

Qweerios

10-14-2011, 12:54 AM

I only play Tarmogoyf as a 1of and it is strictly because I don't pack equipments. Goyf isn't as impressive as his price tag and mostly shines in fast decks. Being a midrange deck, Goyf loses his charm and I only really fetch him when I need a beater and KotR isn't big enough. Besides, when you gain control of the board, it doesn't really matter if you're beating your opponent for 3-4 with a Qasali or for 4-5 with a Goyf.

On another note, I have been going toe-to-toe with a very strong Maverick player in my region with this deck. When I say that my list is well equipped against combo and control, by no means is it a tradeoff against aggro. I have had great success pre-board and post-board against many aggro, and aggro-control variants such as: Esperblade, Deadguy, Tempo Fae, Canadian *****, NO RUG, StifleNought, Goblins, The Gate, Stoneblade, Maverick, etc... The Enlightened Tutor package is only there for matchups that require specific hate and does not rely on card advantage. I used to pack Choke and Dueling Grounds but they are not cards you want to tutor for ever because ET leaves you with 1 less card in hand and lets your opponent know what hate you are going to draw. Against most of the decks mentionned above, KGrips and PTE are enough and replace the more situational cards in the mainboard (Bog, Teeg, Ooze, Qasali, etc...). Only against NO RUG do I bring in Tutors, Metamorph, and CoP: Red because I can afford the card disadvantage of fetching a silver bullet when they use NO. the Tutor package shrines the most against combo decks such as A.N.T, Belcher, Four Horsemen, Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, MUD, Burn, Enchantress(Eplague on Druids + Canonist :P) and more...

As for Jitte, I personally don't like it maindeck without SFM. It's one of those cards that either nails your opponent to his deathbed, or simply isn't optimal. The idea that I can't use a card without another (can't use equipments without creatures) isn't something I want for my mainboard. SFM provides the equipment free-of-charge when you play the creature so I see no problems with mainboard Jitte there.

Top is always a good card and could well be in this list as a 1-3 of. I don't play it because I hate it. Top is an abomination. I hate when games go to "time" because my opponent takes 15-50 seconds every turn to top and fetch. It takes the pleasure out of the game and I don't want to be a part of it.

2 IoK and 2 TS vs 4 TS.
In the Legacy format, there are only a handful of cards that TS gets rid of that IoK cannot (NO, Jace, Batterskull, Ad Nauseam, Empty of Warrens, Obliterator, Humility, Moat, FoW, etc...). Those cards are very specific to a handful of archetypes and aren't always the choice you have to make when choosing what card you want your opponent to discard. Losing 2 life however, has a much bigger impact on a wider variety of decks. Your life total is precious against anything fast or all-in such as Goblins, Eva Green, Zoo, Sligh, Burn, Merfolk, Affinity, Stompy, etc... With that in mind, TS is a card I really only want to see once a game (as early as possible), and absolutely NOT twice during any game because the second discard spell usually doesn't have any 3cc+ targets (it is either in play or previously discarded). I think that 2-3 TS is ideal, fill in the gaps with IoK. Oh, and please don't say TS hits FoW... you play Junk, FoW should make you smile.

BoP vs Noble.
I played 4 BoP at some point and regretted it (with 4 Sinkholes and 4 Hymns, it is posted a few pages back). Being able to produce black mana is minor when compared to exalted. A T1 Noble doesn't prevent me from casting a T2 or T3 Hymn and the Exalted mechanic gives me more value out of my T2 Bob or Qasali. Flying is only relevant when using a Sword of X and Y or when your bird is exalted twice or more.

I haven't tested Liliana in this deck yet but I am not sure if she would be fitting. I don't really see how we can abuse her discard ability and additional Sac effects seem win-more. I prefer Vindicate to Liliana. Besides, her price tag is massively inflated.

mrorange

10-14-2011, 02:02 PM

Hey Qweerios. I have put the deck together. My sideboard is very close to yours, but I don't have all of the enchantments yet. The deck is very powerful game 1 vs. Dredge (and presumably reanimator). Ooze certainly feels like the real deal in combination with GSZ in this matchup. The deck also seems decent against Team America with Snapcaster (only other match played so far). One thing I noticed postboard against dredge is that I really wanted to fetch a Savannah to have up green with an ooze in play and white for enlightened tutor. This might show up in other scenarios in the beginning of the game so I am going to replace a Bayou with a Savannah.

I am only running one Pridemage MD at this point. I am also running Top (online this is fast). I am going to try running 4x IoK and zero Seize. I have a problem with aggro decks knocking out my life. We'll see what happens in the face of Jace and other 4+ spells.

mrorange

10-14-2011, 02:27 PM

One more thought. I am considering cutting all Tarmogoyfs for Ooze. Has anyone done this? This would help win the KotR war of attrition, help against opposing Goyfs, and hopefully gain some crucial life in some match ups.

Morte

10-14-2011, 04:20 PM

It's exatly what they do in Maverick. If you play GSZ and SM, your game is similar.

Qweerios

10-14-2011, 04:28 PM

The cards I would probably replace in my version would be:

Tarmogoyf: the worst card in the deck so far, simple and dull.
Gaddock Teeg: greatly ameliorate some combo matchups but degenerative against anything else (stops GSZ).
2nd Qasali: I would rather not touch this one because Qasalis make fair beaters and often 1 isn't enough.

I will try a couple of Lilianas if I can get my hands on them.

mrorange

10-14-2011, 06:30 PM

I am now running two Ooze and no Tarmogoyfs. Using Ooze I was able to break down 2 Tarmogoyfs and win the attrition war against a Team America deck (I didn't see Snapcaster in this match). Also, Qweerios SB with the Enlightened Tutor and CoP:Red makes burn a lot easier (This shows up a lot online). In addition the switch to 4x IoK and zero TS has been made and I like it so far.

sdematt

10-14-2011, 09:09 PM

I don't think you can truly discount Tarmogoyf's abilities. Even though he has none, being a big, fat wall of a guy is great in the matchups where their guys are tiny (Merfolk to some extent, Goblins, even Batterskull, etc.). Maybe he's not a 4-of in your guys' books, but I think he's still great as a 2-of in a GSZ list, since sometimes you need the fat. Knight is obviously fat as well as utility, but you know what I mean.

I really like Ooze, but I can't find room for GSZ, so we'll see. If I cut the SFM package (blasphemy!), then I'd have more room. I just can't play without Hymns or Tarmogoyfs.

-Matt

DragoFireheart

10-14-2011, 10:14 PM

It's really a sad day when a random green creature from a pre-constructed deck is getting played over a card that caused many to scream for bans.

I have never liked Pernicious Deed that much in this deck since it's likely to blow up most of your board as well. Has anyone had awkward moments with PD?

sdematt

10-15-2011, 04:17 AM

A few, but usually it's more of an, "Oh shit! Must...reset...board!" Sure, I've usually lost a few permanents (but, usually no more than 2-3) and usually take out between 3-10+ (yes, I've gotten 10+, not including tokens, which was 100+ at one point :P)

Deed is there to save your ass from the fire, and sometimes, you get a bit burned, but you're glad you killed all those Goblins. Yes, a mixed metaphor.

Also, Happy Birthday to me!

-Matt

Seems Good

10-15-2011, 10:26 AM

x2 what sdematt said...the point of deed is that you never activate it without it netting you advantage or at least getting yourself out of a loss situation. You're in control of the activation, so unless you make a play error it should net you advantage.

sdematt

10-15-2011, 11:47 AM

We're back in established. Son of a bitch.

-Matt

Water_Wizard

10-15-2011, 05:10 PM

I played against a GSZ Rock build using the Fisher/Jaco deck (SFM package). I replaced a scrubland with a birds of paradise in the maindeck. All of our games went long and my opponent won both. I felt like the games revolved around KotR and who could get her to stick. KotR allows access to the utility lands that can change the game and gets so big that Tarmogoyf is irrelevant. My rough evaluation is the GSZ Rock is better head to head against the SFM Rock because it has access to more knights. Does anyone who has played this matchup more have any thoughts?

Mrorange - I drew pretty well these matches. Especially the 2nd match, I had 2-3 relevant top decks in a row and you drew a lot of land (I think you had 8 on board). I agree, it is about getting a Knight on board, although I think we would have to play a few more matches to determine the SFM/GSZ match-up. If the SFM deck lands a SoFF, it would be a guaranteed beat against the GSZ deck (goyf, kotr, confidant)

SFM does give you an out to Perish, as someone mentioned above, although Qweerios sb isn't running Perish. Also, SFM for Jitte and Perish = game over for the GSZ deck, as Jitte handles Confidant (he's not much more than an 1-creature fog against the mirror anyway) and Perish wipes the rest.

Qweerios, I think your deck and comments are great! Definitely updates Junk to the current Meta - I like the dropping of the moxes!

mrorange

10-15-2011, 07:25 PM

Hey Water_Wizard. I definitely agree that more match ups need to be played. We both agree that knight is key, and GSZ has more draws into knight. SFM can definitely bring the beats with tough equipment, but in the same vein GSZ can answer with a Pridemage.

I don't run Perish in the SB. For NO/Pro and Reanimator I like Metamorph (works great with the Enlightened Tutor SB). I try to bring in Metamorph in general against decks with big creatures. For a sweeper I prefer Pernicious Deed. Now that I have switched to the GSZ Rock list I don't think I should add Perish.

I am not trying to go Ooze overboard. I am running it for a while in place of Tarmogoyf. It could be superior. Tarmogoyf is probably a big creature faster (on say turn 2 hardcast or 3 off of GSZ) than Knight or Ooze (certainly larger than ooze). I'll try and get in some games in the near future against Goblins, Zoo and perhaps Merfolk to see how bad I miss Tarmogoyf.

Qweerios

10-15-2011, 09:06 PM

I have played a couple of sets against a friend playing Esperblade and I lost the vast majority of them (5 out of 6). I was having difficulty reaching double black mana for Hymn and couldn't get a KotR to stick. Being used to always fetch for Basics before duals, I really didn't like how Hymn stressed my manabase, I don't feel like it is worth it.

I thought that I could out-aggro my opponent with 4 GSZ and 4 KotR alone but Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate and the counterspells got the better of them. During those matches I would manage to heavily mana screw and disrupt my opponent but couldn't get anything with more than 2 power to stay on the field (and it wasn't Bob). However, Eternal Witness shone with GSZ, returning Vindicate, Qasali, Wasteland, and StP to my hand. Also, I don't think SFM would have made the matchup any better. I will try to fully abuse GSZ and KotR before reincluding SFM. This is what I intend to play at an upcoming Legacy event:

Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

Spells (16)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vindicate

Lands (24)
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Stony Silence
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Plague

I expect to see the following archetypes: Esperblade, Maverick, MBA, Deadguy, NO RUG, Enchantress, Countertop, and Belcher to name a few.

mdc1010

10-16-2011, 03:13 PM

It seems like the most recent versions posted on Rock are aligning very closely with G/W Maverick in terms of the GSZ toolkit and even the sideboard. I've been less then impressed with Maverick and in making Rock even more mid-range then it already is. I favor the type of game play that is true incremental advantages and pressure with fatties.

The format is very fast and doing the most unfair things the quickest is the most rewarding strategy so far. This is why I've kept the Mox Diamonds in and stopped fitting in SFM.

After testing and testing more I am absolutely in love with the new Liliana, and having the Mox's to power her out turn 1 or 2 has been amazing. There aren't a lot of decks that can recover from her in the first 3 turns. She shores up both combo and aggro single handily. If your not a fan of Junk Depths version I run I hope you at least look at Lilana in whatever build you run. She really is too good.

This is also why I dropped the thoughtseize though. Liliana takes both the place of thoughtseize and deed. In fact due to the shift in the American meta toward BUG and still a strong U/W presence deed is really falling out of favor. Another reason to keep a single Loam, 4 Vindicates, and play 4 Wastelands though since BUG is really showing up in numbers and their mana base is very fragile.

Below is close to what I will be running in 2 weeks in KC. Finally a legacy tournament near me!

//Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Dark Depths
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Riftstone Portal

//Mana Acceleration and Card advantage
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam

//Removal and disruption
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage

useL

10-16-2011, 04:12 PM

So in a meta swarmed with Combo-decks you decide that voluntary discard turn 2 is better than thoughtseize turn 1?

mdc1010

10-16-2011, 04:20 PM

Meta swarmed with Combo? Not the meta I've seen. I've seen a lot of BUG, U/W or UWb. Sure there is some combo but's easy kept in check. Even so yes I would give up Thoughtseize. Why would I want to take 1 card once with Thoughtseize when I can do it over and over again each turn with Lilana?

from Cairo

10-16-2011, 05:16 PM

I'm not weighing in on the Thoughtseize discussion, but I do agree with mdc1010 on the power of Liliana in a Dark Confidant + Hymn To Torach shell. Powering this out a turn sooner with Mox Diamond is all the better. Honestly if embracing this approach I would probably max out Diamonds as you're not running much for Turn 1 plays.

Also the Verdant Catacombs should be maxed rather than split with Marsh Flats - Catacombs can pull up your Dryad Arbor to protect against edict effects and chump Lackeys and opposing Bobs.

Personally I'd go:
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Vampire Hexmage*

+1 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Mox Diamond
+1 Liliana of the Veil

*(you can Stronghold them back if needed, it's probably the most situational card in the deck)

mdc1010

10-16-2011, 05:34 PM

Never thought about that between flats vs cats. Great call out to maximize the value. I've stronghold'd back the arbor a lot, especially to save on loss of life from bob. Plus hexmage is great to bring back against U/W and variants.

damionblackgear

10-16-2011, 08:39 PM

So in a meta swarmed with Combo-decks you decide that voluntary discard turn 2 is better than thoughtseize turn 1?

So... if this is the fear, why play a deck that has a negative match-up vs combo? Some risks have to be taken.

We don't have counters and our clock isn't fast enough to force them to go off (in most cases) which are the 2 things they are worried about. Discard will help but, it will only get you so far.

Lili will also help since she can keep their hand from growing and can force choices that they don't want to make. Unfortunately, she's new and most of the pro's are saying she's terrible. Honestly, she is in the lists they ran her in. She can protect herself but she needs some help. They expected her to preform all on her own. She doesn't do that.

On that matter, Outside of discard, what're people using to fight combo?

mdc1010

10-16-2011, 09:06 PM

Personally I run 3 Leyline of Sancity. I bring it in against burn, combo, and any deck running hand hate or GY hate in the form of crypt, relic, or any effect that targets me. Really just the ooze or the black leyline is the only hate that can effect us then.

The other plan besides Leyline is more discard and backup with extripate if you hit something crucial.

Seems Good

10-16-2011, 10:52 PM

On that matter, Outside of discard, what're people using to fight combo?

Tidehollow Sculler and Ethersworn Canonist have been working wonders vs. ANT/TES and Elves for me. I've played in two local tournaments in the last week and both metas had a lot of those lists.

sdematt

10-17-2011, 02:22 AM

Here's the breakdown of a large Italian tournament. Results should show what we'll be up against.

Liste top8 e deckbreackdown
Ringrazio Anda semplicemente un angelo per la collaborazione nello svolgere questo meticoloso lavoro:

36 maverick
29 Merfolk
25 zoo
24 Candian
23 Ant/Tes
21 Spiral Tide
19 NO RUG
13 reanimator
13 dredge
12 NLU
12 burn
11 Thopter Combo
11 Team America
9 Belcher
8 rock
8 MUD
8 Bant
7 URG Control
7 goblin
6 landeed
6 hive mind
6 affinity
4 White Weenie
4 Team Italia
4 sneack attack
4 junk
4 Caw Blade
3 Stiflenought
3 pikula
3 Pattern Combo
3 Faery Stoneforge
3 Eva Green
3 enchantress
3 Elf Combo
2 UW Control
2 show and tell
2 Painter
2 Landstill
2 Infect
2 Dragon Stompy
2 Dark *****
2 Aggroloam
1 White Stax
1 UR Ninja
1 Ur control
1 stoneforge TA
1 Splinter Twin
1 show and tell NO
1 most
1 Mono U
1 Mono Black
1 Mesmeric Orb Combo
1 eureka.deck
1 dream halls
1 Defense NO
1 Dark Depths
1 cephalid breakfast
1 Birting Pod
1 Aluren

Liste: http://magictutor.org/library/tournament/259

1° Classificato - Marcotti Davide con Team America
3 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SIDE
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Extirpate
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nihil Spellbomb

2° Classificato - Sartini Roberto con Other - Aggro
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Ponder
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SIDE
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus

3° Classificato - Milillo Andrea con Thopter Combo
1 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Firespout
2 Wrath of God
4 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Plague
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpto
SIDE
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

4° Classificato - Fedeli Lorenzo con Spiral Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
SIDE
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away

5° Classificato - Giarola Andrea con G/W Aggro
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SIDE
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

6° Classificato - Blasi Matteo con Threshold Ugr (Canadian)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Fire/Ice
SIDE
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness

7° Classificato - Scalchi Massimo con RUG Order
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Fire/Ice
SIDE
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Divert
1 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

8° Classificato - Moyschewitz Fabian con Threshold Ugr (Canadian)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Fire/Ice
SIDE
1 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
1 Pyroclasm
2 Mind Harness
3 Tormod's Crypt

-Matt

tsoatt

10-17-2011, 09:41 PM

Top 4'd in a 26 man tournament yesterday with this.
Dudes
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 KOTR
1 Scavenging ooze
Non-dudes
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of kozilek
4 vindicate
4 Swords to plowshares
3 pernicious deed
3 Top
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith
1 Tower of the magistrate
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 swamp
S.B.
3 extirpate
3 worldly tutor
1 kataki
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 teeg
1 Thrun
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Timely reinforcements

My matchups were
R1 Goblins Lost 2-1
R2 Elves won 2-1
R3 elves won 2-1
R4 reanimator won 2-0
R5 Mirror(GSZ build) won 2-0
top 8 Reanimator(from round 4) won 2-1
top 4 Merfolk lost 2-0

sdematt

10-17-2011, 11:04 PM

bfeingersh

10-17-2011, 11:33 PM

How were the Worldly Tutors? I saw you playing them and wasn't sure if it was traditional Junk or some weird toolbox build. Do you prefer it over Enlightened Tutor?

And other than the obvious Burn matchup, what were the Timely Reinforcements for?

Congrats on the finish. I played against combo all day (Elves, Elves, Dredge, Sneak Show, Elves???) and did much worse than I would have liked. Getting a game loss for having my deck in the same container as my EDH deck and then mulling to 4 on the play against Dredge wasn't very fun D:

tsoatt

10-18-2011, 08:56 PM

Worldly tutor was fantastic because even though it is card disadvantage it allows me to get my silver bullets a turn before green sun and I can get non-green as well. In game three of the quarters I opened on Extirpate and tutor with my opponent being the reanimator player and he played turn one thoughtseize and I responded with the tutor for scavenging ooze and played it turn two knowing that if he didn't reanimate a dude next turn ooze wins the game and it won the game on it's own.

The timely reinforcements also come in against zoo and goblins because the three chumps can really go along way so I can deed then drop a fatty that takes over the game.

mdc1010

10-22-2011, 12:42 AM

Here is what I am playing next weekend in KC.

//Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

//Enchantment
1 Pernicious Deed

//Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorcery
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil

//Land
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb

The only thing I am going back and forth on is adding in between 1 or 2 Dark Depths and 2 or 3 Vampire Hexmages. Just not sure. I want to see what happens this weekend.

Anen

10-22-2011, 01:16 AM

I see the interaction with Liliana but is Riftstone Portal that usefull? I'd rather have a Volrath's Stronghold if you want one more colorless land (or Depts & co).

damionblackgear

10-22-2011, 02:08 AM

Here is what I am playing next weekend in KC.
The only thing I am going back and forth on is adding in between 1 or 2 Dark Depths and 2 or 3 Vampire Hexmages. Just not sure. I want to see what happens this weekend.

I would advise playing either some type of graveyard hate in the main (bog seems best as there is no other form of tutoring in your list) or including more Deeds or Pulses over some number of Vindicates. Reanimator and Dredge are both real decks and you're cold to them game 1 (Dredge - Tokens - more-so than Reanimator - Iona who has started seeing her way back into some of list's maindeck and white is still devastating... even with 2 Lili and a Karakas in your list). post board you should be able to take a game or 2 but why risk it?

I'd also be worried about Zoo with the 75 but that's just me. Anywho, I'll be down there as well. So "Good Luck." I hope if we play, it's a great game on both sides.

Richard Cheese

10-24-2011, 12:36 PM

Seems like the non GSZ builds do blow-out the GSZ builds, from what I've seen/seen reported. Interesting.

Right now, I want to try this:

3 SFM
3 Goyf
3 Knight
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 Hymn
3 Vindicate
3 Top
3 GSZ
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze
1 Dryad Arbor

-Matt

Ran almost that exact list this weekend. Felt pretty solid, despite a pretty terrible day. Drawing against Enchantress and ZeRo back-to-back makes me sad. Also makes me play like a microwaved turd in the last round.

damionblackgear

10-24-2011, 03:00 PM

Richard Cheese

10-24-2011, 03:17 PM

What did you play against. Ending record? Where you at the GP? I've got tons of questions regarding what happened but I'll start there.

I've had bad luck as well against enchantress. I typically take game 1 but games 2 & 3 end up poorly. I don't know if it's my boarding practices or the fact that they seem to get double Grove or Karmic+Justice Grove. How'd they take it against you? Are you running Deed out of the board? Did they stop the discard with Confinement?

Oh not at the GP, just a small local tourney. Saw CounterTop Thopters (won), Enchantress (Draw), ZeRo (Draw), Burn (loss, stupid mistake on my part).

I thought I had enchantress Game 1 after Vindicating a forest with like 3 wild growths on it and grabbing a Pridemage, but he dropped double Grove and Solitary then Moat to win from 4 life. Game 2 Canonist and 3 Thoughtseizes in a row got there. Game 3 Canonist was keeping slowing him down again, I had Deed in hand ready to clear his board, but couldn't find a threat to follow it up with until too late, one or two more turns and I could have gotten there. Similar situation in game 3 against ZeRo (or whatever flashless hulk is going by). Deed/Ooze/StP basically nerfed the Hulk combo and left him with nothing to sac for NO, but he had a Slaughter Pact and I was one attack short of winning. So it goes.

mdc1010

10-24-2011, 09:57 PM

I did nothing but playtest this weekend with a good friend going to KC with me. I played a crap ton of games against Fish, RUG, TA, a lil Reani, and also UW (Snapcaster version). Ok so I've finally ditched the Dark Depths package. While stronger and has literally stolen a win from my opponent several times it's just not consistent enough. Especially with the shift toward more midrange decks or more tempo orientated. So I am down to two different versions of Rock that have been posting better results in testing. I dare to say I am considering a SFM version, and a GSZ version :x (Holy crap right?).

Seriously I have been really against both SFM and GSZ, and to say the week of that I am playing 1 of the other completely baffles me, lol. One piece of deck during this adventure was that Worm Harvest out of the side just wrecks a lot of decks out of there. Any tempo or control deck just rolls over and dies a painful death to this card.

So now that I come around to the dark side of things so to speak I am looking for feedback on deck tuning and advice. The only card I am short of in these lists is 1 Savannah which I can get that the event.

SFM Version (No GSZ) - I am still running 2 Mox as I am still partial to them and like having the turn 1 DC or SFM or being able to play around a daze.

//Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//Removal and disrupt
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

//Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Mox Diamond

SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Worm Harvest (MVP against UW!)
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void

SFM w/ GSZ package

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

//Creatures
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

//Removal and disruption
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Fetch
3 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

muscleb

10-25-2011, 02:48 AM

mdc1010 I think the SFM+GSZ list looks good, however I think you should cut one Stoneforge for another threat or the last Hymn. The deck is really slow, but very powerful.

damionblackgear

10-25-2011, 04:00 AM

Welcome to the dark side.

As far as advice goes...

I've lost hope for Thrun. He's great in theory, but hasn't lived up to the hype in practice. If you're deadset on the idea of playing a HexP guy that can regen, try Troll Ascetic. It costs 3 and can be GSZ'd @3 instead of 4. They may think they can solve a knight so they'll let it resolve. Also, Trolls are good for what's in their Hand, not their size.

Kitaki is nice, but very limited. Affinity is a deck but you should be able to turn them around with removal. It's also not very good outside of that matchup. I'd recommend some time of removal over kitaki so you can use it against things like Merfolk, Goblin's, and Zoo. Two of which should be guaranteed to have a bigger showing than Affinity.

sdematt

10-26-2011, 05:32 PM

Played my list yesterday and went 2-1 in an 8 man tournament. I only lost to Mono Red Burn, but won against Thopter Combo and Tempo Faeries.

-Matt

sdematt

10-29-2011, 01:02 AM

So, the list I played was:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Basics
3 Bayou
2/3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland

3 SFM
3 Goyf
3 Knight
4 Dark Confidant
1 Birds
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords
3 Top
3 GSZ
3 Vindicate

1 BS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

---

Ideally, I'd love to play 24 lands, due to the amount of Stifle in the format again, but I just don't have room for everything (if I go to 24, I go to 62, ouch). So, I figure 23 lands in 61 should be fine, especially with GSZ for Birds and Arbor.

The list seemed really solid, but I'd love to pack some more discard (probably IoK) against those Stifle decks, since Nimble Mongoose can be a bit hard to hit, and to take the sometimes backbreaking Stifle/Daze play.

-Matt

damionblackgear

10-29-2011, 02:47 AM

Matt, I think I figure the 24th land slot. I've also been wanting the extra land. Also, If the Goose is giving you an issue, look into Liliana of the Veil. She's been great in play. I've found that I'm always using her in some way, even when I have 1 card in hand.

Also, Don't beat yourself up too much about the Loss to Burn. It's also a bad matchup. Their clock is really fast and discard can't beat the top of the library. My only advice on that match is use swords on your guys. Their guys will die anyway.

damionblackgear

10-31-2011, 10:08 AM

It's been a couple days so I'm making this a new post.

Just woke up after driving 7 hours home after SCG Kansas City. Final record of X-2-1. Lost to burn round 3 (top 8'd) and the win and in against Red Thresh (on SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_8_jason_golliher_vs_ian_.html)). Drew against Esper Blade... we decided not to play game 3 since 2 finished with 4 minutes left.

sdematt

11-01-2011, 06:07 PM

Why would you not crush your opponent? Jeez :P

Nice job! Now, tournament report!

-Matt

damionblackgear

11-01-2011, 06:22 PM

HAHA. Yeah. If it wasn't a buddy, I obviously would have just crushed but, he wanted to go to NC and the T8 would get him there. If anyone wants to know, he didn't ask. He was just as surprised when I did it. Report should be up tomorrow on Quiet Spec tomorrow...ish.

Hulk

11-03-2011, 09:08 AM

I would like to know other people's thought's on this deck list. Specifically the IoK, Duress, and Surgical Extraction package MB.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2094&d=214616

22 LANDS
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains

14 CREATURES
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic

20 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction

4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Duress
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Perish
1 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
3 Wall of Omens
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

damionblackgear

11-05-2011, 08:15 AM

tournament report. Linked so you can get to it easier.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22520-21st-instead-of-T8.-Letting-someone-else-with-run-it-in-KC.&p=599221#post599221

serendib

11-05-2011, 01:58 PM

sdematt

11-05-2011, 02:05 PM

But, Surgical can get countered. Why not play Extirpate, at that point?

-Matt

serendib

11-05-2011, 02:24 PM

because surgical does not need mana and it give you the turn1 kill possibility
wasteland + surgical
or discard spell + surgical.

from Cairo

11-05-2011, 04:07 PM

But, Surgical can get countered. Why not play Extirpate, at that point?

-Matt

I think at the point in the game when you want to best utilize it, the tempo gain outweighs the counterability. For turn 1 Duress -> Surgical, or turn 2 Hymn -> Surgical you're removing a dangerous 4x at a cost of 2 life. The counters they potentially have online to combat it are Force of Will and Daze both of which set them back for the benefit of countering the spell.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of mainboarding Surgical Extraction, but I can see the logic of using it over Extirpate. It is still a card that doesn't effect board state, if you're staring down Knight of the Reliquary and it could have been Vindicate #4 or something. It does have application against several archetypes though.

damionblackgear

11-05-2011, 07:30 PM

Can't say if the extipates or Extractions would be better but, the decks that are being run are only running a couple of real threats. being able to snag one of those could be helpful. The only issue I see is that we play swords... which doesn't work well with rfg effects.

On a side note, I've played in 2 smaller local tournaments this week.

3-1'd the first. Loss to Death and Taxes... forgot to maze a creature. went to -1 turn before I would've stabalized. :rolleyes: Played, Maverick (2-1), Merfolk (2-0), D&T (1-2), and Canadian Tempo Thresh (2-0).

4-0'd the second. Played - Reanimator (2-1), Mono Green (random guys) (2-0), AnT (2-0), and Zoo (2-1).

sdematt

11-06-2011, 02:23 PM

So I've been playing against a ton of Delver.deck, and I'll be honest: a flying Wild Nacatl is pretty good. With this in mind, I think two things:

a) Pernicious Deed, albeit slow, is good at killing Delver and Mongoose, or both :)

b) We need more 1 CMC removal; 4 Swords is pretty lacking. You also need removal for Maverick's Ooze (which can be annoying as fuck...)

c) Is SFM too slow? Again, I love SFM, don't get me wrong. When it goes right, it's great. But, I ran up against Tempo all day and they always had the Stifle, removal, Bolt, etc. It was really frustrating.

With this in mind, I also noticed a couple of things.

a) Even though Goyf use is on the decline, most of those aggro decks can't actually kill a Tarmogoyf or Knight. Interesting to say the least. My point: Add more Goyf.

b) Add more Knights. I was running 3 with 3 GSZ, but 7 isn't bad either.

c) Playing more land-heavy. Stifle and Wasteland are back with a vengeance like it's 2007, so I'd suggest running an extra land or two if you're at 21/22. I'd also run at least 1-of Birds or Noble.

d) My Vindicates got Dazed all day long. Getting up to 3 mana against a tempo deck, only to have my lovely Vindicates Dazed was also frustrating. I'm wondering if we should cut it back to 2 Vindicate, or possibly just more creature removal, since Jace is being pushed out of the format.

Thoughts?

-Matt

Seems Good

11-06-2011, 02:38 PM

Matt,

I agree about Pernicious Deed being a house right now, not only against thresh but also MUC, CounterTop, and all of those other nasty control decks that we usually scoop to. I played in a 36 man local tourney yesterday and lost to the three above mentioned decks. Brought my 2 deeds from the board in each post game-1, and wish I honestly had 4 in there. Thinking about cutting something to make room for 2-3 main.

On another note, Surgical Extraction was an absolutely boss. Again, ran 3 in the board but I think I literally brought them in EVERY game 2 and game 3 in 6 rounds of play. Kinda want to make room for those guys in the main as well...

from Cairo

11-06-2011, 03:54 PM

@sdematt

Maybe Darkblast as the additional 1cc removal?

Darkblast is cool since it gets Birds, Grims, Hierarchs, Mother of Runes, Lackeys, Bobs, Snapcasters, Cliques and can occasionally get 2 toughness guys if you play it upkeep and dredge it back draw step like to take out a SFM or something.

The fact that it can be recycled at the cost of a draw is pretty killer against the decks it's good against - Tribal, Delver Thresh (UG b/r), and Maverick primarily.

I agree SFM is clunky at the moment, if you're playing midrange w/o Aether Vial there is a lot of tempo invested in this card and w/o counters a bunch of 1cc spells can potentially bury you. If you want to stick with the equipment package, maybe running 2 pieces of equipment and 1 SFM would be descent, maybe have a 2nd in the board against removal light decks like Merfolk or w/e. It's a powerful card, but it's slow and hard to protect. I think it lends itself better to being a late game top deck in this archetype.

I agree with you also that Tarmogoyf is good right now. Knight of the Reliquary is even better, I definitely think it should be 4x. Running more land isn't a bad idea to combat Waste+Stifle. Horizon Canopy is a solid pick since it helps avoid flooding in the later game.

tsoatt

11-07-2011, 08:41 PM

Rock needs to go back to it's original principles, being a card advantage/quality machine. The green sun zenith's and stoneforges are cute but they are just too slow and yes SFM is card advantage but it is also a 1/2 and if the equipment it gets is killed it is kinda useless. We play a "fair" deck according to some but the real power to the deck is that every single card is seemingly unfair. The deck needs to play deeds mainboard because of all of the tempo and aggro, it also needs more lands because of how powerful wasteland is again and the need to hit three lands fast. I don't understand why people aren't playing vindicate as a four of as well, this card is fantastic it has won me games even when it isn't that good in the match up because, it is at worst a three mana strip mine. We need to go back to the classic build and then make changes from that.

sdematt

11-07-2011, 09:23 PM

The main problem is that the format has sped up, so playing Deeds and Vindicates are super slow. I'm not saying they're not good, but 4 Vindicate with MD deed is pretty rough, unless we were to start playing 8 basics lands, so we could consistently just run off basics like a champ, which might not be a bad idea...

-Matt

damionblackgear

11-07-2011, 11:24 PM

I don't think the format is too fast for SFM or Zenith (especially since I opted to not t8 in KC with SFM and GSZ). Vindicate costs 3 and with the inclusion of Knight and the loss of a true accelerate we can't afford to run as many 3cc spells. The last one was Sakura-Tribe Elder and it was great for it's era and may deserve a comeback but where in the list? With that taken into consideration:

3-4 Knights
1-2 Deeds
3-5 Vindicate/Pulse
0-3 Zenith (@2+)

Makes for 7-14 3cc spells.

Adding to the land count is a fine idea as well but, be careful. With adding lands in the deck you increase the risk of flooding. Wastelands are always around. I think that instead of running more lands, fetching basics when possible may be a better option than going up to 25+ lands.

We don't have the draw/filter that some other decks have so we can't swap lands for spells later on when the game is getting to the wire.

Side Note: Mox lists are typically running 3 Mox so, +3 to their late-game dead draws.

-----

For removal, I'd advise looking into Dismember. -5/-5 is pretty big and even if you're not always able to kill a bigger creature, it may be that little advantage your team needs (shrinking their creature) to win. It doesn't always cost 4 life and can be used regardless of moon effects.

sdematt

11-08-2011, 12:08 AM

True, Dismember is a relevant spell under Blood Moon, which is also why I'd never play Magus of the Moon now.

I also think Mox is bad in the sense of I want maximal threat density, especially late game. The acceleration is excellent, but comes at the cost of some consistency, as I'm sure all of you have noticed. I'd personally, at this juncture, opt for additional removal. I think if you make the switch from Thoughtseize to Iok (considering Jace isn't as prevalent with all the Lightning Bolt in the format), running Dismember will be more viable considering opposing direct damage and Dark Confidant damage.

I'd also consider Ghastly Demise. Sure, it does die to grave-hate a bit, especially with an opposing Ooze, but, it doesn't accelerate your opponent like Path does, and it doesn't cost 2 like Smother or Go for the Throat (a primary concern when facing Spell Snare.deck).

Thoughts?

-Matt

damionblackgear

11-08-2011, 01:26 AM

I'd also consider Ghastly Demise. Sure, it does die to grave-hate a bit, especially with an opposing Ooze, but, it doesn't accelerate your opponent like Path does, and it doesn't cost 2 like Smother or Go for the Throat (a primary concern when facing Spell Snare.deck).

Thoughts?

-Matt

I think Demise is a good option as well. My only beef with the card is that it's still got a non-black clause attached to the graveyard restriction. We can't be the pickiest though. Swords has a drawback that we don't care about and is helpful at times (burn). I don't think they'll be printing anything that focus'd again for a while (since path isn't swords since it can screw you over more often than not).

I don't see many mirror matches (archetype mirrors) so I don't know how often it's going to be relevant that Demise can't hit a Black creature (Bob's the only one I can think of right now). The bigger restriction is the graveyard restriction. If you see a Knight, assume there is a bog somewhere in the 75. If you see a Zenith, assume there is an Ooze. You can use the other removal on them but, be aware that They (Knight and Ooze) can change the value of your Demise limit if you're in a pinch.

----

I think the Mox is fine. It's more meant to help the deck not have to get to the late game than be a late game draw. I do agree, it is usually terrible late game and I'm constantly shuffling them around the top 3 cards or flipping them to Bob.

I'm still willing to sacrifice those 3 slots to land a Bob, SFM, or Library on the first turn. To be honest, there are a lot of games that I'm actually casting GSZ for 1 on the first turn so that I can do increasingly absurd things on turns 2-4 (ei. T2 Liliana+wasting. T3 Jitte+Equip and swing with the turn 2 play). Even being able to Top on the first turn isn't bad. It's a judgement call though.

I do think the deck requires either some type of acceleration or a way to slow your opponent. We're no where near how slow we used to be a couple years ago but, neither is anyone else.

tsoatt

11-09-2011, 04:19 PM

As far as the 1 cc removal isn't disfigure a possibility? It takes out Bob, Lavamancer, Stoneforge, and Clique, a Nacatl on turn 1 and Goblin guide. Hits mishras factory like a champ as well.

novatinhu

11-09-2011, 04:33 PM

Building my deck against reanimator i change my MD to fit more removal whitouth white (Iona), and im liking the currents builds:

Option 1:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

or

Option 2:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Putrefy (instant cast, hit Iona to white)
1 Victim of Night (kills everything)

damionblackgear

11-09-2011, 05:07 PM

novatinhu

11-09-2011, 05:57 PM

Tsoatt - I think with how the meta is right now, yes. Disfigure becomes an option. Just realize that you won't be able to kill the larger creatures (or Zoo) with just disfigure. You can however use it to aid a creature to kill something it shouldn't (Bob>Kird Ape).

Novatinhu - What's the rest look like? There may be other things you can do to assist. I think that the variance is a good thing. Just don't want to advocate a change to the mana requirements do to an alteration in the removal. I like the Pulses though. They can also just be Putrefy.

Im playing with DephtsRock, but now Im testing new builds, currently the list looks like:

// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Angel's Grace
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed

3 Slots on the SB

damionblackgear

11-09-2011, 09:34 PM

I guess the only changes I would make would be able to suggest is the inclusion of Liliana (new) over 2 Hymns (her edict ability is very helpful and they don't always go off turn 2. and perhaps switching from Inquisition to Thoughtseize (so you can take the force).

Between the packages, I'd go with A. you already have it main-decked. Why change it? Also, what about swamping the counts on edicts to extractions. That would give you an out to them being able to go pull a fatty back.

What're you typically siding against them? Me? With your list, I'd probably...

-4 Hymn (it's too slow... if that makes any sense)
-1 Goyf (Your Bird seems more helpful, ironically)

+3 Extraction
+2 Edict.

The only other thing I could think of, would be swapping another card for the Pridemage (Animate Dead).

sdematt

11-09-2011, 11:15 PM

Another card I "found" again after flipping through my box: EE. EE solves the problem of Deed being a bit slow, but EE is great against Tempo, especially Goose/Delver. It can be easily cast, doesn't need 2 colours (since we'll be EE'ing mostly on 1 or 2, but with birds we can do 4 for Jace in case) and is a tad faster. I may try 2 in the main, with 2 Deed in the board. Also helps against Maverick a bit (hitting their 2 drops can be nutty, or killing tokens/stuffs).

Yeah, Ghastly does have that terrible downside of being shrunk, but I think in the tempo matchups, where you're valuing speed/efficiency, I think Demise takes the cake. Obviously Path is better since the GY restriction isn't present, but putting a deck like Stoneblade ahead by a land is a fucking disaster. T3 Jace is not what I was planning on :P

I don't think Hymn is too slow, but if you were not getting there with Hymn in your meta, that's understandable. I mean, part of this deck is 8 pieces of discard to try and fudge your opponent around. I think if you're cutting Hymns, cut Vindicate for Pulse. Since you're now never on the land denial plan, Maelstrom Pulse has possible extra value here.

-Matt

DragoFireheart

11-09-2011, 11:36 PM

Not sure what direction Rock decks are taking nowindays, but why doesn't Glissa, the Traitor see more play? Simply unable to take advantage of her second effect? A 3/3 with First Strike and Deathtouch can kill quite a few things easily.

sdematt

11-09-2011, 11:41 PM

DragoFireheart

11-09-2011, 11:45 PM

I think it's because it's only a 3/3. I've always wanted to play it, but I never really thought it cut the mustard. If it was a 4/4, I think that'd be okay, but the fact that it takes 7 turns to beat down instead of 5 makes it meh.

I may give it a try, though. Can't hurt. Drago, want to try it?

-I would but I'd not a fan of decks without Force of Will or Lightning Bolt. I've played Rock in the past but it's simply not a style I care for. Anyways, she may work with your EE suggestion. Recurring EE is pretty broken for last game dominance. Here are some decks that did try to use her:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Glissa%2C+the+Traitor&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

Also Drago, are you following me thread to thread? First Thopters, now here? :tongue:
-Matt

-Why not? :wink:

Elminister

11-10-2011, 05:46 AM

Canadian Threshold is, I dare say, 70% in Rock's favor. Between discard and all the removal, they will have a hard time keeping threats on board or countering yours. I play Mox and don't play Thoughtseize, so I suppose that helps...

novatinhu

11-10-2011, 07:18 AM

I tested 2 EE in the deck and dont like, but its before the Canadian Thresh becomes popular again, now whit 2 GSZ and 1 Glissa i think its can be cool.

sdematt

11-11-2011, 01:34 PM

So I changed up my build just a bit, in light of tempo being the tits right now. I hate cutting SFM, but I was down to 2-3 of them anyway, and I was getting massacred by Bolt or some other black removal every time I landed it, or having it Stifled. Fucking hell.

So, I decided to cut stuff, and so far, it's been decent. Very decent.

24 lands (Dryad Arbor, Maze, Karakas, 3 Wasteland,3 Basics).

4 Knight
4 Tarmogoyf (he's just a 4/5, which is relevant, since he doesn't die to bolt...)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
14

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach (by far, seemed to be weak due to getting colour screwed at times against Tempo. I'm just cutting it back by one, since I'm playing infinite tempo)
3 Vindicate
3 Top
3 GSZ
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 EE (again, was VERY good. Taking out Mongeese, Grim, Delver, etc. was great all day)
23

I may take out the 2x Thoughtseize for the 4th Inquisition just to free up a slot, but so far, it's been fine.

My board so far, looks like this:

2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
+3 Slots (probably Ghastly Demises or something).

Virtue's Ruin is great against Maverick, since most of their creatures are either White, or GW. Only ones that aren't are Scryb, Ooze, Thrun, Noble/Birds. Knight, Mindcensor, SFM, Mom, Qasali, Gaddock Teeg. The most dangerous stuff seems to be white, here.

-Matt

comandantenorton83

11-11-2011, 01:45 PM

About the EE issue: as I am a big fan of bitterblossom (and will always be) and have had 3 BB for a long time, I have also been using EE for a long time (faeries don't like deed) and it has always performed very well. The idea of trying 1-of Glissa to reuse EE (as someone suggested) should be, at least, considered.

I also have 2 deed SB, but they usually stay there in G2 and G3, so I'll probably cut them off.

Just my 2 cents.

Richard Cheese

11-11-2011, 03:54 PM

With GSZ you should seriously consider a singleton Scavenging Ooze. Whether you cut a Goyf or whatever for it, it can get huge in a hurry, or just nerf things like Snapcaster, Welder, opposing KotRs, etc.

sdematt

11-11-2011, 04:27 PM

In my meta, I wasn't getting full value out of it. I'd cut the Thoughtseize for it, though. I don't want to go down on threats/Goyfs.

-Matt

damionblackgear

11-11-2011, 07:21 PM

;600972']Just a quick question, how was liliana overall? I often found her doing nothing at times...did you side her out often?

She was and has been awesome. I was trying to keep her under wraps but some other people noticed.

The thing I noticed about her is that she good, but she needs help. She's not like Jace where late game she can filter your cards and she can't win the game by herself (unless you keep FoF'ing their permanents). So, in most decks, she's not enough. What she needs is a little bit of help from you. Without it, it's probably going to have a bad turnout.

As far as siding her out, I did a couple of times. She's a little slow in some cases, Combo Elves to give a specific case. The funny thing is, Her addition was actually to deal with Progenitus and have extra discard against Combo.

I've had a chance to test her vs Combo and has proven that it's good once you get their hand down to size. So, people who have TS and/or Hymn will be able to assist in limiting their Hand size. They'll draw their card for turn, and you'll force them to discard, so 1;1. You're keeping their Hand size the same, Forcing them to keep possibly worse cards than the better ones they could have.

At the end of the day, if they're going to go off, you're still done for. She just helps buy you some time to possibly steal the game.

Against Progen, I haven't actually killed one with her yet. The last time I had the chance to, they had 1 other creature and were trying to figure out how to survive the Knight I had on the board. Playing her took the decision from them.

I know I didn't get to kill the Progen with her but, we do have more removal than most other decks. We have the ability to limit their creatures sitting alongside Progen that could be used as fodder to Lili. Or, just putting them in a situation that Progen isn't a threat.

Overall, I've found that there is almost NEVER an instance where you don't use Lili. As all Planeswalkers, value is gained when they are used. Remember, they are also losing a card. They are also limited drawing a single card per turn (unless outstanding situations exist) and in a topdeck war, the deck should outdraw everything, with either an answer or a threat.

;600972']How about stoneforge?

Stoneforge is still extremely helpful. it's not a matter of always getting Batterskull. sometimes it's better to get either a sword or Jitte.

Sometimes what you actually want to do is just let them see it. Decks like RUG tend to bring in Ancient Grudge. That gives them shots at the Mox as well as activated Tops. Yes, you're risking them aiming at those things but, you know those things are going to come in. Adjust. Take out the Stoneforge package when it's actually just going to clutter things up. They'll usually hold their removal for the equipment. My Esperblade opponent held his disenchant over 2 swords and a Snapcaster waiting for equipment. It was in the board.

This doesn't always work. Sometimes, you need the package as a possble out to random situation. Hence actually keeping it in Against CTT. Burn can suck and the only way to beat it is to actually gain the life back.

;600972']Did you ever think about having Sobam instead of Sofi?

Earlier, when I was building a Bant list I did. With this deck, I looked at my reasoning for the Bant list and figured that it would do for reasoning that this deck didn't want it.

Reasoning (from my post in the Bant Aggro Page)

Not Jose but I did run SoBM instead of SoFI in my build before going back to Rock. Body and Mind is Pro Green and Blue. Meaning that your creature would be Pro Goyf/Knight and Pro Jace.

The 2/2 wolf is also left to block any creature which become relevant against aggro. Reason it's good vs Merfolk is because it doesn't count on them not having 2 lords or a swarm of creatures (Folk and Gobo's) to still be effective against them. It Essentially gains you life in that sense and still kills any creature SoFI would've killed.

The Mill is also relevant in the aggro match as you will grow your Goyf to increase the clock. you are also giving your Ooze fodder to gain more life than just the damage the wolf would prevent.

It's also useful vs Thopter Sword as they are still being clocked (by mill if they can still race the damage).

So, for this styled deck, We can force single lords against Merfolk, especially when in games 2/3 (Seven 1cc removal spells alongside of a seeming infinite removal sweet helps a lot) so we don't need to leave wolves back to block. We're already killing creatures, so our Ooze will grow without the forced milling of their deck.

Their Goyf and Knights are matched by our own, and because of the removal sweet we have access to, we already have the ability to trump them. Worst case scenario, you have to blow your bog on their Knight. Just realize, anyone who's playing a Knight, could have anything you've thought of playing with your own. that makes the Pro-Green pretty much useless outside of swinging past thing.

Jace isn't as used since Misstep left the format (I'm actually missing it... Made this deck better). So, Pro-Blue only holds him against Thopters, which there is a maindeck Bog, Ooze, and Pulses available. Post board, there are Chokes, Extirpates, and Jitte (may not make sense, give it a chance). So we're not really all concerned with that.

All points aside, the single card is more important than anything else. We topdeck better than most decks. Yes, they play less lands, have brainstorm, and creatures. But, They don't filter their lands out to the extent that we do. They don't have nearly as much removal as we do. They are limited to brainstorming 3 cards where we are able to Top, Libarary, and Bob. That means they get to see the three cards and pray for a shuffle effect (which is usually a land).

;600972']The split of library and sensei , was it random? as library usually gets snared.. or was it more for avoiding 2 sensei in play.

Not random at all. I guess the best way to say it is, "I didn't care." I tested Library on the advice of someone else in this thread who had mentioned that it was amazing. Even if it wasn't as synergistic with Bob as top is. After testing a little bit, I noticed that I was enjoying that more the ability to draw one of the cards, more than I was enjoying spinning my wheels with Top.

The second in the board was chosen instead of a top for the same reason. It being in the board is because of the same reason that I always hated discard, "You can't beat the topdeck." I've come to love that thought though. Not because it's true, but because it applies to us as well. our topdeck is even stronger when we get to choose it. It allows us to fight decks playing thier own discard. When paired with the Batterskull, a Jitte, or the Ooze we can gain some amount of life, allowing us to keep an extra card every now and then.[/QUOTE]

SpikeyMikey

11-13-2011, 03:45 PM

tinker

11-13-2011, 04:34 PM

I'm back on Rock, since the format has shifted to a place where none of my brews are particularly effective.

I've been running Glissa but she's just not that exciting. I rarely get the Glissa/EE softlock out. She does make a nasty blocker, but most of the time I feel like she's underwhelming for me because she doesn't *do* anything.

I've actually tried a deck with glissa before, she's just always in removal range (dismember, bolt, etc.) in late games. I want to be getting damage through opponents not hitting through a wall, hence the reason I added terravore.

4 Bayou
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Beast Within
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Unearth
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Eternal Witness
3 Mox Diamond
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Life from the Loam
3 Dark Confidant
3 Marsh Flats
3 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Terravore

I'm focusing on improving the main deck. Please let me know what you think.

Jacemindbreak

11-15-2011, 08:49 PM

How do I board in against Aggro loam?

i have

4 faerie macrebe
1 tormod's crypt
2 chains of mephistopheles
3 path to exiles
3 pernicious deed
2 duress

sdematt

11-16-2011, 05:51 PM

Against Loam, I think you really want to board in:

4 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chains

Why Chains? They can't use Cycling lands as a draw engine. Sure, they Loam most of the time, but sometimes it's also just to draw cards. Make sure before you try to muck his Loams that he doesn't have Cycling lands to Dodge the hate. Extirpate is better at killing Loam decks. Plus, it's still good against Reanimator, etc. I'd suggest:

2 Faerie Macabre
3 Extirpate

-Matt

Jacemindbreak

11-16-2011, 06:07 PM

sdematt

11-16-2011, 06:12 PM

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

Jacemindbreak

11-16-2011, 06:48 PM

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

Wow...so the Rock has much more options for different decks than other rock based decks.

SpikeyMikey

11-16-2011, 06:58 PM

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

Heh, I had a Reanimator player drop turn 2 Iona on black to stop the Liliana of the Veil he saw off a Gitaxian Probe. He promptly got ruined by a topdecked Maze of Ith. Maze kept him stuck until I could land Knight of the Reliquary and search up Karakas. Yeah, this deck can lose to Reanimator just like any other, but I can't think of a matchup Reanimator would dislike playing more. Maybe TA?

Seems Good

11-16-2011, 07:35 PM

I agree Mikey. I think our reanimator matchup is fine.

What's everyone been boarding in vs. CB RUG? I've returned two chokes to my board and I'm thinking about adding #3 and maybe #4. I just tend to scoop up to CB, MUC, and Landstill variants..

sdematt

11-17-2011, 12:17 AM

Rock has access to Thrun, the lever-action shotgun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEKN-NHg6Rk
Skip to 1 min in to get to the point.

Ash being Rock, the Witch being blue based control.

Choke is good against them, Deed, Thrun, Vindicate, Hymn, 3-drops, etc. They can't get you on ALL fronts. I think if you're packing Deeds or EE and Thrun, you should be okay. Grip is also really good.

-Matt

KobeBryan

11-17-2011, 01:02 AM

Two flex slots...Chains of meph or Choke?

sdematt

11-17-2011, 02:32 AM

If you're playing against a ton of SoFF, Chains. Cool factor? Chains. Not so much SoFF? Choke.

-Matt

Seems Good

11-17-2011, 08:36 AM

Thrun seems good but what about in a non-zenith build? 2-of in the board?

sdematt

11-17-2011, 09:21 AM

When my meta was all landstill, I played it as a 2-of. If you're got GSZ, I'd still play 2.

But, my meta has shifted to Aggro-Control, so I'm on the more aggro plan myself. I think Deed is really good right now, and probably the best card you have against Maverick.

-Matt

Seems Good

11-17-2011, 10:13 AM

Maverick has never given me trouble, though I do think deed is a must-play in the board right now in most metas.

SFM is an absolute boss against your typical aggro/midrange/control builds (Read: Bant, Rock, Deadguy, Maverick, etc.) due to the ability to bring in the swords from the board. Resolved sword usually spells scoop for those builds. Right now I'm running SoLaS and SoBaM and thinking about adding SoFaI for fish and gobs.

Benke

11-18-2011, 07:53 AM

Hi everyone,

I've started playing the rock, and I enjoy it quite alot. I started with a non-SFM build but decided to put them in and it works better for me.
I currently run a SFM non-GSZ build, and my main issue is that I don't know how to board G2/G3. It's always close games (most of the time), but I don't seem to be able to pull the last string to win. I'm usually in situations where I die the turn before I'd win.
My meta is extremly blue-orientated (Rug, U/B control, reanimator etc).
Is a tutor board the way to go? I've thought of going something like this:

Board:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormonds Cryps
1 Reliq of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Choke
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

My deck:

CREATURES (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (6)
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Mox Diamond
LANDS (24)
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Plains

sdematt

11-18-2011, 10:55 AM

If you're in a blue based meta, I suggest some of the following:

Grip> Claim: Uncounterable, kills CB easily and Equipment.
Extirpate> Crypt (sometimes). Uncounterable removal against Reanimator.

The Enlightened Tutor board is valid, don't get me wrong. But, if you're seeing a ton of blue, especially blue based aggro control (RUG Tempo, BUG Tempo, Esperblade, etc.) you'll want to have the actual copies, not the virtual E. Tutor copies.

I'd suggest:

3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog (you've got Knight, why not?:tongue:)
2 Pernicious Deed (goodbye Counterbalance!)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
+4 Slots

The 4 slots could be more gravehate, extra removal, Thrun, extra discard against combo, etc. I think as of right now, the sideboard "staples" seem to be 2-4 gravehate, 1-3 Deed, 2-3 extra 1-2 CMC removal, 1-3 Grip, 0-4 Choke.

Hope this helps!

-Matt

Benke

11-18-2011, 07:23 PM

@sdematt

Thanks for the help, although I'm still not convinced that a board with no tutors would do it for me. One of my main reasoningings is that if you have tutors, you'll never have to fear getting your answer discarded or revealed. Decks like reanimator etc often board in thoughtsieze (if they dont keep them in main), and look at your hand/potential answers before going off. Most blue control decks also run cliques, and also there the tutors hides/protects your answers.
Even for combo like TES/ANT, I think tutor is the way. Sure you can board in extra discard that will delay the opponent a turn or two, or have a tutor and play a turn 2 undiscardable Ethersworn/Chalice which pretty much wins you the game.

sdematt

11-18-2011, 10:25 PM

Understandable, especially if you're in a combo meta. I'm coming from a very aggro slanted, combo light meta, so I'm a bit biased.

-Matt

Andy_V

11-20-2011, 12:48 PM

My friends and I have been debating Beast Within in the Vindicate slot. Some advantages that we have come up with are:

It's easier to cast with Wasteland heavy hands.

A 3/3 is not insignificant in the early game, but your creatures are going to be so much bigger. Given the opportunity to play a Beast Within on an opponent's turn and then untap and use mana on my turn, or wait and then decide between either playing a threat or destroying their threat, I would always pick the former.

A 3/3 beast will take 7 turns to kill you, 6 if you use 1 or 2 Thoughtseize. A sword on a Stoneforge or a Sword of Feast and Famine on Bob will completely negate the 3/3.

It can be used positively, when your opponent has to top deck a removal spell, only to have it effectively countered by a Beast Within, and you lumber in for the kill. If you have two Tarmogoyf and they use Echoing Truth, since it loses it's target it fizzles and you get a 3/3 and a goyf instead of having to recast two Tarmogoyfs. Further, if Bob is killing you, you can trade it in for a 3/3 vanilla creature that doesn't kill you, instead of just having to Vindicate or Swords it.

If Perish had a kicker that was discard a card to destroy any permanent, it would be played in every deck that has black available. That's almost what you are getting by playing Beast Within. Play Beast Within on their upkeep, so they can't attack and then play Perish (assuming that they have other green creatures, of course)... Waiting for Merfolk to use the mana to pump up Coralhelm Commander and try to fly over will be embarrasing for them when they lose the mana, the lord, and the flying.

There are so many applications when giving yourself a 3/3 could end the game, too. Have an extra Top? Make it a 3/3. You can tap it to draw a card, then Beast Within it and still draw the card. Opponent uses a Qasali Pridemage to kill your equipment? Make your equipment a 3/3 and have their Pridemage die.

The versatility of an instant speed Vindicate, IMO, is worth a 3/3 beast.

Thoughts?

sdematt

11-21-2011, 11:23 PM

Sure, Beat Within is a nice instant, don't get me wrong, but you can't just go out and say it is inconsequential. I've killed many opponents by having my crap Beasted, and then just beating in.

It's great due to its instant speed, but that's all it has got going for it. The 3/3 is of no consequence when you're already slightly ahead. If you're in Topdeck mode and need to kill a Jace, sure the 3/3 isn't as bad as an ultimate-ready Jace, but it's still not great.

If Vindicate were an instant, you'd obviously have no case whatsoever, unless you were mono green. But, as an instant, I can see your point. Surprise removal off of 2+G is decent, especially when they, say, swing with Equipment then you gank them. Test it more and tell us about it.

Right now, I'm testing a newer list with a ton of testing that I did on Saturday against Tempo and Maverick, since they will be our biggest enemies (they're pretty popular at the moment, kiddos).

I've got two builds here: One is SFM, one is GSZ. Yes, I know Ian that both are working great for you, but I was getting ganked in both ends on Saturday. First, a list of observations:

1) You're the control deck versus tempo (obv, but true). Sometimes, casting SFM is a huge liability, and the investment usually turns into tutoring something that won't affect the board state (since the SFM gets countered, Stifled, or Bolted). I found it was pretty bad in this matchup, but fine in many other matchups.

2) The reason why SFM is so good in Maverick is because of the mana backup you have. Noble means you don't get Dazed, or have an extra mana just to do something else on turn 2, or, even if they kill it, you're still at mana parity the next turn. sure, you derdled for a turn with SFM, but now you're back on track. Here, we've used up a whole turn and don't have too much to show for it.

3) Knight is the greasiest mother fuck around, at the moment. Tempo can't stop him unless they Bolt/Bolt, Dismember early, Dismember/Bolt, etc. Once he's online, the game is usually over soon. GSZ makes it even better.

My point here is, most of the time, you'll want max Goyfs/Knights.

4) Ooze is a fucking beating. Because Knight is so popular, Ooze is just that much better, same as Goyf. Murdering their Goyfs with Ooze is great, but hurts the fuck out of you. But, it's really good against the whole small creatures slant that most decks are taking. My point? Pack extra removal for Ooze. You NEED to kill it, especially against Maverick.

Because of this, without adieu, my updated list. Birds are pretty good; colour fixing and being a blocker, in my books, makes it better than the Moxen, which eat your own lands and are crap later on. At least you can chuck a Bird under the bus.

24 land manabase (the usual)

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Birds of Paradise (these were pretty good when I got them. Colour fixing=awesome)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Top
3 Vindicate
4 Swords
1 Path to Exile
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

BOARD:

1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize

Post board, you have 9 pieces of 1 CMC removal against Tempo along with 3 Vindicate, along with Deed. Against Maverick, same thing, expect you also get the Ruin, which hoses them more than you, plus you get Ooze and Grip. Again Combo, you get Thoughtseize, Extirpate, and Teeg. Reanimator/Dredge are similar in boarding.

Thoughts?

-Matt

KobeBryan

11-21-2011, 11:35 PM

If you're playing against a ton of SoFF, Chains. Cool factor? Chains. Not so much SoFF? Choke.

-Matt

doesn't everyone play SOFF now?

stealth

11-22-2011, 01:05 AM

Hi Matt,

Long term junk player, not much posting tho

Just a quick glance at your list (an i havent tested it as im addicted to the moxes) but i have been plaing a GSZ for some time and am loving the maindeck Scavaging Ooze, so im proposing - 1 Birds of Paradise or Tarmogoyf, + Ooze, and i also think that Hymn needs to be a 4 of, and the only card i could consider cutting is Top or a Ghastly,

The biggest problem I have is against Maverick, do you have a good EV against this deck?

damionblackgear

11-22-2011, 01:58 AM

I've got two builds here: One is SFM, one is GSZ. Yes, I know Ian that both are working great for you, but I was getting ganked in both ends on Saturday.

You'll get no argument from me on this. I've had much success but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone. I could just as easily 0-2 my next one because of it. Either way, I'll stay out of judging deck types and instead just give advice if mentioned (hehe. you mentioned me :)

1) You're the control deck versus tempo (obv, but true).

I do have a different theory here though. I say get aggressive. Swing for the fences. Drop your 3/4 Goyf (play around the bolt if you can), force them to blow stifles on mystics (those are effects later). If they can't, get a Jitte. Suddenly they have to figure it out.

OH, don't fetch forests if you don't have to. Submerge is a dangerous card here. Knights should be swinging if you have a forest (or getting rid of them if you can afford). If you do need a forest, only get one, and if you're going to use knight. Use it on that forest. They can't cheat submerge in response as you no longer have a forest.

My point here, "Force them to play control." They've got reach so if you try to hide behind things, they'll shoot you. Just remember, Wasteland and Stifle exist.

I agree with the rest of "1)"

2) ...Noble means you don't get Dazed, or have an extra mana just to do something else on turn 2, or, even if they kill it, you're still at mana parity the next turn.

The Noble just forces them to have the bolt as well. Older players tend to kill the Noble out of habit, "Kill the first turn bird." Newer players tend to think, "I can use this on something real." Honestly, I've been in this for a while and I love having my t1 bird survive. It wins games.

On that note, the bird fills a similar role as the Mox. Explosive starts, consistent finishes. Either way, both produce green allowing you to not get submerged.

3) Knight is the greasiest mother fuck around

AMEN! But, I now have Samuel Jackson screaming this in my head.

4) Ooze is a fucking beating. Because Knight is so popular, Ooze is just that much better, same as Goyf. Murdering their Goyfs with Ooze is great, but hurts the fuck out of you. But, it's really good against the whole small creatures slant that most decks are taking. My point? Pack extra removal for Ooze. You NEED to kill it, especially against Maverick.

Fighting against Ooze can be tricky. If you can't kill it, try to force them to use it how you want.

Example: If you've got an Ooze, use it to eat 1 creature they'd trying to eat at the end of their turn. Fight over it using the stack. Eat the rest of the remaing things when you untap.

That will keep their Ooze's size in check and allow your ooze to dominate their Knight(s). Still hold your bogs for the Knight vs Knight fights. You have more answers to their Ooze than they do to your creatures. Especially post board.

-----

The theory changes a little when you're playing against Maverick but you can use some of the principles. The biggest difference is that YOU ARE THE CONTROL.

That does not mean that you kill everything in site, but that you understand that your countdown, is your life total. If it's not a REAL threat, leave it be. I'm sure that the experienced players will agree when I say "Mother of Ruins is ALWAYS A THREAT."

If you're not familiar with fighting MoM, I'd suggest you get a couple matches in against her. She likes to be tricky and with some lists having access to Scryb Ranger they can put a stone in your path pretty quick.

A couple quick tips

1) Kill MoM before she's active - She can't protect herself on the first turn.
2) Mass removal and Equipment kill MoM... and she is the target - Colorless sources and mass removal are out of her control.
3) 1 MoM means protection from 1 color - Keep your available creatures' color as varied as possible. That doesn't mean go play Wild Mongrel.
4) Force MoM's hand if you can - If you force them to tap her blocking damage, you can exploit the 1 less use of that MoM.

Without MoM, you're only fighting Knights and Swords, plan accordingly.

-----

Now, on to your list (and I promise I won't judge ;)

I would recommend recalculating the needs of your manabase. The color requirements may have changed since the last time.

Just wondering, why the split between the additional 1cc removal. Testing? Expectations? On that, remember that they can bog/Ooze your yard in response to a Ghastly to stop it, the spell will still resolve though.

That's all I got. No real changes outside of possibly the manabase. I will say that you should look into Liliana. She's a way to keep their creatures/hand under control as well. Usually warrants a counter or they usually lose.

sdematt

11-22-2011, 02:16 AM

@ Stealth

Maverick isn't terrible, since you have access to Deed and Grip. Just remember that they might be packing Grip too, so if you need to blow the Deed, don't wait.

@Damion
The split of removal is due to: Path against Stoneblade is awful, just awful. Ghastly is great in the sense that it doesn't accelerate them. I think they're two different removals against two different gameplans, and I really haven't decided which is better in general.

I'll definitely have to look at the manabase. Right now, it's:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Any suggestions before my tourney tomorrow?

-Matt

damionblackgear

11-22-2011, 03:00 AM

Your manabase looks fine to me. It doesn't need any changes to accomplish the goal.

Me being paranoid about matchups though... I'd probably cut a Scrub for another fetch (Flats) and add a Bog over a Bayou. That'd bring you up to 9 fetches (7 Black, 6 Green, 5 White) which is almost more than the number of lands you can fetch so you'd have to pay attention to that but, you'd be able to filter lands out and improve draws. You can always put the extra's to reveal to Bob. If they stifle you'll have enough lands (and selection with them) to think of it as a discard spell that costs 1 life.

muscleb

11-22-2011, 08:06 AM

@ Matt

I think Tower of the Magistrate could find a spot in your main. Obviously it depends on your meta, but I see a ton of Stoneforge tactics right now.

sdematt

11-22-2011, 06:10 PM

I've found Tower to be super derdly, since it gets Wastelanded a ton, and having more off-colour lands in this deck is tough. I can give it a try, but I've got Grips and Qasali to do most of my Equipment crushing. It's a card, though, so I'll give it some thought :)

-Matt

Borealis

11-23-2011, 03:09 PM

Maverick isn't that hard for us, at worst I'd say it's 50/50 but I'm usually more confident than that against it. Mother of Runes is certainly one of their primary threats, and Aven Mindcensor can be a bitch for Fetching and if you're running Mystics (I don't). 3x Pernicious Deed out of the board as well as a couple Darkblast shores up the match pretty well for me. Plow their Mom every chance you get!

I went to Jupiter Games last month with the following list and placed 12th out of 67:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Choke
2 Darkblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I don't have my notes in front of me, but I'll see if I can quickly summarize my matches:

Round 1 vs. B/W Deadguy:

This match was by far my longest and hard fought on the day. We went to 3 games, and all three were long attrition matches with very interactive plays on both sides. I pulled out a win by the skin of my teeth in game 3 on the back of several relevant topdecks (Krosan Grip, Vindicate, etc.). B/W Discard has always been a fun "mirror" match, but this was one for the books.

1-0

Round 2 vs. BUG:

I don't even know what style BUG he was on, but I'm pretty sure it was the usual suspects with Snapcaster Control as the core. This is largely because I drew 4 Wastelands in Game 1, and 2 more + a Choke in game 2. He never had a chance, and I felt bad Wasting him out of an otherwise very challenging match. I think he played a couple Ghastly Demises or something. :tongue:

2-0

Round 3 vs. Bryant Cook with TES:

(if you read his tournament report, he refers to me as "Nate from Boston", but my name is actually "Matt from Boston". No worries though Bryant.)

Game 1 he turned 2s me I think. I had him pinned on RUG for a hot second there, but it wouldn't have mattered unless I had known to mulligan aggressively for discard spells. Game 2 I had some disruption and landed 2 Goyfs, though he may have dealt with one of them. The other one got there before he could draw business. Game 3 I think he went off again on like turn 2, but check his report for more details as mine are foggy.

I went into the tourney knowing I was a little soft to Storm Decks, so I didn't feel terrible about losing to Bryant. I do need to test this matchup more to really learn it's ins and outs, but nonblue decks always have a bit of trouble with combo. At least I got him to 3 games!

2-1

Round 4 vs. RUG Tempo

I'm pretty sure he was on the Delver plan. He got some bad draws though, and I was somewhat careful about getting Stifled out of the game. I basically overwhelmed him with better card quality and pressure, can't remember if he got a game or not.

3-1

Round 5 vs. U/W/b Blade

Probably the second hardest match of the day, after Deadguy. The player was extremely nice and we got along quite well, so losing wasn't the worst experience ever, but I do think I made a few critical play mistakes. To be fair though, he probably cast Brainstorm nearly 10 times in 3 games (thanks to Snapcaster, yes), and always at the right time. I hear that card is good in Legacy.

3-2

Round 6 vs. Merfolk

I lost Game 1 pretty quickly, but I wasn't worried in the slightest. Our Merfolk matchup is pretty strongly favorable, and they usually only get 1 free win per match. I proceeded to crush him Games 2 and 3. Choke! for the win.

4-2

Round 7 vs. RUG Tempo

He conceded pretty quickly in Game 2 after I landed a Choke backed by a couple Wastelands and pressure. RUG should usually be a tough enough matchup for us, I think I just got lucky both times I played against it.

5-2

My breakers weren't good enough to catapult me into Top 8, but that was fine since we had 6 hours of driving ahead of us. I happily bought an Italian (not FBB though) Volcanic Island with my $75 cred and rolled out of there pretty happy with my purchase. Hooray for Breaking into Blue (finally), but I still love Junk.

MVP of the Day: Choke. This card was the nuts everytime I played it, except of course when the U/W/b deck landed a SoFAF.

Favorite 7-card Keep of the day: Elspeth, Liliana, Fetch, Fetch, Dual, Wasteland, Mox Diamond. I knew if I could survive the first 2 turns and draw a little more business I would be in the game. I won with 2 planeswalkers in play and he never knew what him him. Game 2 he sided out some of his removal and was surprised by my Goyfs!

sdematt

11-23-2011, 06:15 PM

Played some awesome games last night, and lost to random nut draws from Bant Stoneblade and Punishing Fires Maverick. Ooze is so good against us, unfortunately.

This is what I played:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah

2 Birds of Paradise
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Top
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Path to Exile

BOARD:

1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog

Round 1: Chad with Grixis Tempo

I take the match in 2, easily crushing him with 9 pieces of removal postboard and Knight of the Reliquary. Bolt just doesn't get there.

Round 2: Nixon with Bant Stoneblade

A very close game 1 that I lose, he ends up having 4 Knights, and I don't have enough removal for it.

In Game 2, he opens an insane hand against discard, but I run out Birds, Knight, Qasali + Ooze, etc. He dies.

Game 3, I mis-GSZ for an Ooze, but then I get Wastelanded out of Green. Then, I die to his hardcast Batterskull and Jace. I should have gone for Qasali instead, since my Goyf was too small. Shit.

Round 3: Brandon with RUG Tempo

Game 1, I trounce him with discard, Knight, etc. I don't play into the tempo game.

Game 2, he has everything. Multiple Daze, Stifles, Wastelands, Loam, etc. Boo.

Game 3, I see 5 pieces of 1 CMC removal, and discard, Knight, etc. I get there.

Round 4: Ed with Punishing Maverick

I lose Game 1; I get really behind from multiple Wastes off an active Knight and lose.

Game 2, He has the epic hand of double Fire, Grove, Noble, Mom, etc. I take Mom with IOK, but then he blows out my Birds + Condfidant, and gets me off green. Shitty, since I had Ooze that could easily get too big to Fires. I Bog away both of his Fires, but then he drops Ooze and pumps it immediately, and I don't have the removal, and I'm off colour. FML.

----

All in all, a good day, but Maverick isn't the easiest matchup. I think I'll have to put another Deed in the board, or possibly Perish. Ruin didn't hit Ooze. Boo.

-Matt

KobeBryan

11-23-2011, 06:36 PM

Played some awesome games last night, and lost to random nut draws from Bant Stoneblade and Punishing Fires Maverick. Ooze is so good against us, unfortunately.

-Matt

Cuz it makes your knights small or what?

sdematt

11-23-2011, 06:39 PM

No, because the fact that it's an Ooze just grosses me out. Ew. /sarcasm

But yeah, nerfing out Knights and Goyfs sucks. I hate Ooze.

-Matt

Dark Ritual

11-23-2011, 06:47 PM

Scavenging ooze is so good in legacy it's not funny. That card deserves the price tag it holds; I could see it going up in price because it's just so good in legacy and once it catches on completely could see tarmogoyf price levels potentially I think.

But yeah ooze is quite good against goyfs and knights since it munches up your GY quickly and just grows. Doesn't help that it also gains them one life for each creature it removes to help the damage race. Whenever you see an ooze land against you, you have to immediately kill that guy because he will wreck you.

sdematt

11-23-2011, 06:57 PM

That card is just an asshole. Literally.

If there were no GSZ, no problem. But seriously, what the fuck.

-Matt

KobeBryan

11-23-2011, 07:33 PM

No, because the fact that it's an Ooze just grosses me out. Ew. /sarcasm

But yeah, nerfing out Knights and Goyfs sucks. I hate Ooze.

-Matt

He's also so good against loam decks too.

SpikeyMikey

11-23-2011, 08:54 PM

Plow their Mom every chance you get!

Oh, that is so fucking sigged.

sdematt

11-24-2011, 12:53 AM

I chuckled pretty hard at that, too :tongue:

-Matt

Borealis

11-24-2011, 04:51 PM

Fuck yea, first sig post for me! That's a favorite saying amongst my legacy friends. :)

novatinhu

11-26-2011, 05:29 PM

Hey guys, I won an tournament today with this list:

// Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Putrefy

Round 1: Dragon Stompy 2-1 (me)
Round 2: The gate 1-1
Round 3: Burn 2-0 (me)
Round 4: Reanimator 2-0 (me)
Top 4: UW Stoneblade 2-0 (me)
Final: The gate 2-0 (me)

I like to play with 4 Stoneforges, what do you think about my list?

PS: Sry, Im not english speaker!!!

sdematt

11-26-2011, 06:45 PM

I think for your meta, your list was perfect.

-Matt

Andy_V

11-28-2011, 06:33 PM

I have been testing the following list with good results:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Beast Within
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

I so rarely get to use Maze of Ith effectively that I almost cut it all together, but it ended up in the SB.

SB:
1 Maze of Ith
4 Extirpate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Pernicious Deed

Sticking Bob with Sylvan Library is almost always better than Top, so I would consider cutting the top, but the off-chance value that I will need to pop it for a card is not irrelevant. Against decks like Burn, Zoo, and Merfolk, I take out the GSZ Bird package for the SFM package (usually Batterskull and an appropriate sword). Arbor can easily trade for Maze in this case, because it gets killed regularly for fear of NO.

Beast Within is killing it every time I use it. It's kind of like Brainstorm in that I wait to get the most information before using it (miss a land drop - here's a 3/3 but you're further behind on land... Drop a fatty - here's a less fatty guy...) It's especially good given that fetching basics is no longer a major problem if you are stuck with Wasteland. I rarely ever cast it if I don't have an answer for the 3/3, which is why I like the GSZ package and SFM switch. Making the creatures green so your sword you naturally drew can kill them is nice.

No tournament practice as yet, but you can see the SB direction for the different matchups.

KobeBryan

11-28-2011, 08:44 PM

How do you guys beat BUG jace still decks?

sdematt

11-28-2011, 10:37 PM

Andy_V

11-28-2011, 10:41 PM

What sdematt said... except that they are running about equal on everything except removal, relying on hand destruction and counters. It really comes down to the cards drawn and the specific decks. Try to tear their hand apart, so that they are either threat light or counter light and then force through what you can. I tend to play very aggressively against the deck and keep them off of Deed mana, but not overly aggressive.

I have found the games to be very swingy based on tempo.

KobeBryan

11-29-2011, 03:06 AM

A) I didn't know that deck was good without MM.

b) I didn't know that deck was good without Visions.

How to beat them:

a) Choke
b) Grip
c) Thrun

You need to bait their Deeds. Don't overextend, and board in more discard. Extirpating Deed is also crucial, if you can.

-Matt

I have a full discard package...4 hymsn 4 thoughtseizes.

i have chains in my board, no choke.

Everytime I drop a creature, he would use ghastly demise, innocent blood, or bounce with jace. Eventually, he just Jace ultimate me. I just couldn't keep anything on the board to hurt him. I did extirpate his mishras factory, but his jace, deeds, innocent bloods, and ghastly killed me pretty bad.

Elminister

11-29-2011, 05:18 AM

Jace is the biggest threat here. I would say your best shot is Extirpating Jace and do your best to resolve a SDT or Library. Perhaps Pithing Needle could be of some help (needs testing).

Anyway, I finally got around to testing GSZ build and I was not impressed. It seems like with GSZ, I was slower against straight aggro (no Mox), more vulnerable to Tempo strategies (easier to Daze when I pay 3 mana for Goyf and 4 for KotR) and weaker to combo (less discard). The only benefit I see is turn 2 ramp into Birds of Paradise which can sometimes help with reaching that crucial 3CMC drops. Also, with GSZ, deck turns from BWg into BWG and as such has shakier mana base.

I'll do some further testing today and see if I can come up with better results.

sdematt

11-30-2011, 02:10 PM

A friend of mine and I were talking about fitting in the 4th Hymn, and how "bad" SFM can be in a Tempo meta. We basically came to the same conclusion on cutting SFM and focusing on the GSZ build, since we're not like Maverick in the fact that we can just power through a mucked SFM. If we were playing 4 Nobles and 4 GSZ, maybe, but right now, not so much. Plus, do you really want to be derdling with equipment over turns 2-4 when you really want to be laying beats? Again, this strictly comes from a tempo-meta standpoint.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Borealis, I like the list more and more. I'm not totally set on Liliana in my meta, but we'll see. My friend and I were thinking

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Birds of Paradise

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisiton of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 GSZ

24 lands

As to being slower than SFM, I'd have to disagree. Allowing yourself to get into 3 mana on turn 2 via a Birds on Turn 1 is a legitimate play. It's not like if they don't have the Daze they won't Daze your turn 2 or turn 1 Mox play. Also, you make it seem like I'll always be using GSZ for Knight, but remember, I'm also playing 4, and sometimes I'll also draw them naturally :)

I also think Darkblast is worth taking a look at, especially since you can muck Delvers before they flip, Moms, Nobles, etc. It's gotten me really excited again.

-Matt

Elminister

11-30-2011, 05:30 PM

It is because of lack of Hierarch that I think this deck doesn't need GSZ. 4 Hierarchs and 4 Zeniths pretty much ensures that you have 3 mana on your 2nd turn and Maverick can accomplish this, we can't.

GSZ and lack of Mox seem to put a strain on manabase that makes Hymn to Tourach much harder to cast. I guess that's why people who are advocating GSZ cut Hymn from their lists. For me, Hymn is the last card I would cut. This deck relies on card advantage and card quality - GSZ only helps with latter; Hymn does both.

Also, Mox opens up some interesting sideboard choices such as Red splash (with Badlands in sideboard) for Ancient Grudge (vs. SFM decks), Firespout / Pyroclasm (vs. Merfolk and Combo Elves) or even Pyroblast (vs. Stoneblade and any Jace deck).

To conclude. GSZ is a very fun card which is probably why people try to put it into any deck playing Green, but from my limited testing, it didn't live up to expectations.

Borealis

11-30-2011, 08:08 PM

Yeah, I've always felt that GSZ just isn't as strong without Hierarch, and decks like Maverick and Bant pull it off better than we can. In Junk, it's not a bad thing to be able to Zenith for a few key answer dudes, but our creatures are always vulnerable without blue in the deck. For this reason I prefer to have maindeck planeswalkers and solid SB answers that are harder to remove.

Thanks for the shoutout sdematt, I definitely recommend trying out that list. You can always swap out the maindeck Lily for another Elspeth or Scavenging Ooze or some similar threat, but so far in my limited experience I've never minded seeing her off the top. In more than one occasion she has saved the game on her own. She is harder to protect than Elspeth, but has game against combo, aggro, and control, so in a lot of ways she is the perfect card. It's rare that she is not useful, and even as a Vindicate + Fog she is a great play.

Also Darkblast is very good when it's good. I learned in testing to be careful of falling into the Dredge trap too much, trying too hard to kill X/2's vs Maverick and Dredging away valuable cards while 2-for-1ing myself, so keep that in mind, but otherwise it's the nuts. At Vestal I expected a lot of Snapcasters, Maverick, and RUG decks running X/1's, so it was the right call. Darkblasting Mother of Runes is even better than Plowing it. It's probably not necessary as a 2 of unless you see a high amount of x/1s though. Also, Dredging away jank that you've seen with Library manipulation definitely comes up often, so having both Loam and Blast in the 75 really increases your ability to fake a Brainstorm with Top and Sylvan. This deck loves to live off the top, and when you get into a rhythm of "Dredge away some junk, Rip a fresh threat, Darkblast your Wizard, Spin Top again...." your opponents start getting that look on their face that only a Junk player can truly appreciate. :eek:

EDIT: You can't Dredge back Darkblast AND rip a new threat without also having Sylvan Library in play and paying 4 life, but you get the point. If you DO have Sylvan, Top, and Dredgers and haven't lost yet, you are probably in a damn good position anyway if you play it right.

damionblackgear

11-30-2011, 09:58 PM

To add onto Borealis edit, You can dredge the Loam and the D.Blast, you keep both (no choice to return them via library), put back 1 cards without paying life for the others (provided you've only DRAWN 1 card this turn). Library only wants back what you've DRAWN and doesn't punish you if you haven't DRAWN 2 cards to put back. It just expects back the number you have, or 4 life per.

Simple version - You can't put Dredged cards back. Library wants 2 cards drawn this turn but, doesn't punish you if you've drawn less than 2. It does, however, want the other's back (up to 2) or 4 life per card.

sdematt

12-04-2011, 09:40 PM

Rock vs. Reanimator right now on SCG.

-Matt

damionblackgear

12-05-2011, 03:40 AM

Sorry this time could pull it. Mis-boarded myself out of round 1 and mis-played myself out of 2. Wen't x-0 after that until my ride decided to leave... except I scooped to my opponents who were a little more interested in planeswalker points than I was. I blame stake and shake for my condition as I spent most of my time prior and between rounds 0-2 visiting the facilities... along with the other 2 people that went there. I may have also been a bit frustrated with someone successfully trolling me.

Ran the same list from KC.

Round 1 vs Show Eureka

Game 1 he casts Show and Tell - Knight (shown) + Liliana (played my turn) vs, Emrakul.

Boarded out my pulses (don't hit anything), and my Pridemage (mis-poarded). and brought in Teeg, 2 dismember (he showed a couple dryad arbors), and duress.

Game 2 I Thoughtseize and start a clock. He casts Eureka and drops in Form of the Dragon... I have a zenith in hand and 4 lands, a 5/5 knight in play. All of my ways to destroy it are out. I lose.

Game 3 I bring back in the pridemage but forget about the pulses... oops again. I start digging with Library, Land a bird of paradise and decide to use my zenith to get a knight. Next turn He Eurekas again and I'm stuck looking at form + Progenitus. I have a bird and a sword enough land to equip and zenith for 2, and a bob and knight... Bob shows Mystic, I drew Goyf. I figured I was still good if I kill the form since I'd be at 1 after the Progen hit if I drew the mage or the zenith off the top. I equip Bird, swing, and draw Knight. Game over.

Round 2 I play Canadian Thresh.

Game 1 I aim a pulse at his goyf while we're in the early turns (my 4th) leaving Wasteland up for daze... He fetches and I decide to waste his land... with pulse still on the stack... He dazes. Wastes and stifles put me out of the game form there. He has no more creatures though.

Game 2, Not close. I stick bob on turn 1 and he bolts it. I waste him and play library. He bricks on land...

Game 3, We get to a point where he's got a 4/5 goyf with no instant in the yard and I have Dismember. I'm stuck at 2 usable mana (Mox, land, Maze) the entire game (he used one stifle there) so I can't cast the Liliana in my hand and put her to good use. He plays a delver though so I hit that instead. He also decides to Kgrip my mox. I draw, land. So, no choke, no Liliana. Same place. We keep this up (he stifles another fetch) and I finally draw Bog. next turn I draw another land so I make a bad choice and try to kill goyf. He stifles Liliana and then snapcasters it back to stop maze, draws for turn and bolts me for lethal.

hindsight's 20/20. I should have GSZ'd for knight (7/7) and been able to block his Goyf. If he had the dismember I could still block and force him to use the stifle on the maze that would've protected the knight. That would've allowed me to Liliana Next turn forcing the snapcaster and then maze the goyf without issue, possibly playing the goyf in my hand to stop all attacks cold and use Liliana to get out of a bad situation.

----

From there I played Stax which had one interesting game (2, I was up a game). Game ends with Knight swinging for 7. It was the only attack... He put himself to 6 between Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy and I put myself to 1 with 2xbob and canopy. I sign the sheet in with him winning before they pick up their cards since I don't need the planeswalker points. I can never Q for anything based on this point system because of my work schedule and this person might be able to use them sometime in the future.

Then my opponent no showed me... REALLY?! I was only staying in to play while I waited for the rest of the people in my car to either win it all, or drop.

Next round was against a person I've played before and recognized from previous SCG's. We Joked and I almost punted game one by not killing the defenseless jace with my batterskull equipped dryad arbor. But, I pull it out. The next game I catch him off guard with choke. Mind you, he's got double submerge in hand and I don't have a forest (save the one's binned to diabolic edit (arbor) and Mox. knight runs the game away and he's force to try some creative play to try and get the knght to die (9/9) so he starts darkblasts it and does a couple other things then plays Ghastly Demise. we count up but his yard is only 7. Knight wins but i decide again that I don't need to points so I concede.

the rest of my car is out at this point so I mark drop wish my opponent well, get a hold of the buddy nice enough to let us crash at their place and say goodbye the go to the car to start the 9 hour drive home.

sdematt

12-06-2011, 04:31 PM

Nice job!

Too bad you didn't make it further, I was really hoping for Jeff to get there. I think his problem was no Extirpate, and not opening on discard on his turn 1. If he would have drawn Karakas, that would be have been the tits.

I'm hoping in the next little bit I get some more testing in. Ideally, during the break, I'll run some gauntlets with the builds and see what's going on.

Want to post your list from ST. Louis, damion?

-Matt

sdematt

12-06-2011, 04:52 PM

I was actually thinking a light red splash basically gives us:

REB and Grudge, which is basically enough to run the colour. A singleton Badlands replacing a Scrubland, with Knights for fetching, another black fetch (over a Heath), and possibly a Life from the Loam in the 75 along with Moxen gives us enough to run it.

I'm thinking of a board, like:

2 Pernicious Deed
3 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout

It's a crazy idea, but perhaps crazy enough to work? The point removal of Swords backed by Deeds and Firespouts seems hot against Maverick and we don't have to nut-kick ourselves with Perish. Hm...

Shaky manabase? Not by much...

1 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
etc.

4 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise

2 Mox Diamond (or 3 Birds)

+ the rest

Thoughts?

-Matt

damionblackgear

12-06-2011, 09:18 PM

This was the list. Same thing from KC -2 Extirpate +2 Surgical Extraction. Post tournament I'm thinking of taking a page from some of the Maverick decks and boarding/dropping the Batterskull for Jitte. I lose the body and vigilance but the aggro decks are terrified of 12 Swords so I don't need the body and Jitte can also double as removal/life-gain to offset burn just the same. It also forces them to point removal at every creature since Jitte easily makes them a 5/5 after the first swing. Lili's still been a house every time I've seen her... except when she got stifled. I'm also looking at taking out the 2 Cannonist as I've seen combo... but very little. It would open up for life-gain slots vs Burn and other decks like it.

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Thoughtseize
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Viel

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
2 Eithersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
3 Dismember
2 Pernicious Deed

15 Total

----

On the red splash, it's fine. everything depends on how greedy you want to be. I ran 2 Llawan when Progenitus was really big with the only blue being Birds and Mox. I never really had issue casting her but I'm sure it would've come up given enough time. The extra land gives you better odds at not running into that scenario.

I haven't seen the coverage of that match yet. Have to wait for it to go up. we left the round I dropped in since it was a long drive to come.

Borealis

12-06-2011, 11:07 PM

Yeah, tough beats DamionB but it sounds like your deck has what it needs to win, you just got shorted in the early rounds. I think a Junk list running Stoneforge Mystic made it to the later rounds, possibly top 64 or so? I wasn't paying close attention but saw it was doing well on SCG live.

Red splash would definitely be doable mana-wise, but is there a real need for it outside of REB? Ancient Grudge is good against artifact heavy builds, but in my experience Krosan Grip is just as powerful against the relevant artifacts we will encounter, while still dealing with problem Enchantments. Grudge beats Affinity and is cheaper, but beyond that I'm not sure it's super necessary.

REB would be sweet, and I've heard of people doing it before in off color decks. But the problem is many of the decks you want it against will have the ability to Waste you off your red source. RUG and U/W Blade both run Wastelands, as does Fish. Moxes and/or Birds can help, but it's still a bit of a stretch. Having dead REBs in hand seems much worse than being able to drop a Choke.

sdematt, what's your main motivation for the red splash? Maybe we can brainstorm some ideas to really deal with your issues while staying on color.

damionblackgear

12-07-2011, 12:29 AM

Yeah, tough beats DamionB but it sounds like your deck has what it needs to win, you just got shorted in the early rounds.

Thank you. Honestly, I did the first round to myself. None the less, it's a big difference from KC though.

sdematt

12-07-2011, 11:08 AM

I was just reading through the thread, many pages back, and it came up. I was just Brainstorming, really. Not really having any issues, just raising the point for the sake of it.

-Matt

Elminister

12-07-2011, 12:35 PM

Borealis

12-08-2011, 12:10 AM

I wouldn't say never. While I agree that with 8 black fetches, 1 Badlands, and 3 or so Moxes, you can support a handful of red spells, I think it's still highly likely that the following will happen in attempting to do so:

A) You will draw Badlands in the opener with no red spells and be sad, since it's basically a Swamp vulnerable to Wasteland at that point. Or you will draw a Red spell in your opener with a bunch of basics and Bayous.

B) You will fetch a Bayou or Scrubland instead of the Badlands and then draw a Red spell, followed by several turns without a fetch or Mox. (Mox still needs to eat a land, which makes it much worse when you NEED that red source.)

C) You will reveal your red splash game 1 or 2, and your opponent will then successfully strand a red card in your hand next game thanks to the knowledge. Most likely it will be a REB.

..Just a couple random but likely scenarios that will occur with this splash. I know it's doable, but I think it will hurt consistency. We run Wasteland, and often must force a color-hungry deck into running smoothly on just a few colored sources. With Karakas, Maze, Canopies, and Basics already in the manabase, adding a 4th color is going to make for some awful Opening 7s, and will certainly create a few stumbles in midgame development.

Mostly though, we already have the tools for the jobs you are referencing above. Ancient Grudge kills 2 equipments, sure, but Krosan Grip doesn't get countered. I'd personally rather have Grip against U/W Blade. If you really need to kill more artifacts, just run 3 Grips in your SB.

Pyroclasm and Firespout are great and all, but we have access to Perish, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Damnation, and Wrath of God, to name a few. Pyroclasm is cheaper, yes, but EE and Deed are both far more powerful in other matchups. We are one of Merfolk's worst matchups, and running 3x Deed pretty much clinches the match for us after sideboarding. Yes they can win, especially if they are a GOOD Fish pilot, but we should have a good EV against them.

If Elves is giving you hell, Engineered Explosives is a bit better. Again, good Elves pilots will give us a heck of a ride, but Sweepers and Darkblasts out of the sideboard combined with Hymn to Tourach and GY hate (vs. the Intuition plan) should get us a pretty favorable position.

Red is splashable, but I think if you do it would probably be worth going heavier into the color, or giving up on some of the utility lands (also fine). I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I think SB-only red cards that overlap our existing options don't warrant a splash, nor the precious SB slots taken up by lands. Tell me you also want to run 4x Lightning Bolt in the main and maybe like 4x Bloodbraid Elf, and I'm all ears. Jund is pretty good too in the right meta.

ForlornEgoist

12-08-2011, 11:43 AM

While I am somewhat more optimistic than Borealis when it comes to possible scenarios for our red splash, it is my opinion that when a 4th color splash is involved it should be because you need that splash to answer either a specific card/deck/situation. While we've just begun to brainstorm the possibility of a red splash, one must ask what exactly does it provide (even if the card is more optimal) that we cannon find to a greater or lesser extent in our other 3 colors.

I honestly don't think a light splash (1 Badland/1 Bloodstained/1-2 Birds/2-3 Moxes) would affect the playstyle of our deck, however the issue I would take is that after splashing red it seems like we're attempting to become a suboptimal Zoo deck. Afterall, Stoneforge/Bob can easily fit inside a Zoo shell, not to mention GSZ has more viable targets available. I am by no means against theorycrafting possible evolutions or styles for our decks, nor am I entirely unopposed to attempting a red splash however I would simply seek to know what weaknesses our deck needs to cover with red that cannot be found in the other 3 colors we currently run.

Forlorn Egoist

sdematt

12-08-2011, 01:43 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm just thinking along this tangent for the sake of it. Literally, I'm innovating for the sake of innovating, not necessarily progress. Plus, I love playing Ancient Grudge. Maybe I'm just trying to fit it into everything.

-Matt

damionblackgear

12-08-2011, 01:52 PM

Let's take a look at what's giving up issues then. Red may be able to better solve that question than presenting an answer we already have.

sdematt

12-08-2011, 02:44 PM

coraz86

12-08-2011, 03:42 PM

All of the creatures you just mentioned are white. Have you tried Virtue's Ruin? One of my friends was boarding it in Junk and Deadguy for a while and had pretty good success with it.

ForlornEgoist

12-08-2011, 04:01 PM

I found Maverick, especially Punishing Maverick, to be a bit tricky. They just have tons of creatures and protection, and the equipment can be a bitch. Deed is a tad slow here, since if they gave the GSZ, they can bust it with Pridemage before you can activate.
Perish only deals with this partially, since they still have SFM and Mothers which are white.
Teeg also turns off some ability to GSZ, or cast Damnation.
But, Firespout doesn't kill Knight.

If Maverick is the primary issue what you could possibly think about doing is testing a Burning Wish board. Perhaps running 3 MD, and then in the SB running Perish/Virtue's Ruin to kill creatures and then perhaps Shattering Spree/Primitive Justice/Echoing Ruin/Hull Breach to deal with artifacts. Heck, even Decimate is a card I've previously used (although in Aggro Loam/43 lands so the cost was more reasonable).

The Wishboard may not be the strongest for our deck, then again my meta is more oriented towards combo/aggro and less control. If Bant/Maverick are more prevalent for you then this might improve the odds G1 (as well as being able to cast it under Teeg) although I'm not fond of being delayed a turn for tech.

Forlorn Egoist

Elminister

12-08-2011, 04:46 PM

I would say the reasoning behind adding red is simple: You gain splashable, cheap tools for fighting top decks. SFM is found in many top decks. Ancient Grudge makes him a 1/2 critter. Jace is really hard to deal with and can easily turn game against us. Pyroblast deals with this card for 1 CMC.

Perish or Virtue's Ruin don't help much against Maverick, since the deck relies on 2 threats: KotR and Equipment. If you want to win, you need to stop those threats. Firespout doesn't seem needed in this match-up. Deeds and / or Grudge does it for me.

This brings me back to Vindicate story. I don't understand why people are cutting this card. It takes care of creatures. It takes care of equipment. It takes care of planewalkers. It takes care of enchantments (like Sylvan Library). It's great against Maverick, it helps vs. UW Control, it kills all of Canadian's threats. I just don't see a reason to cut it. Vindicate's versatility makes it great for G1. For G2 and G3, you can easily board it out.

damionblackgear

12-08-2011, 05:09 PM

So the big issue that everyone's worried about is Maverick? It seems as though Deed wouldn't be an ideal addition with them having the ability to consistently out-ramp us into GSZ "bullets". Another notch against it is that their curve is the same as ours so there is no way to gain value. It's more of a panic button with a tack on the front.

Additionally, Mom's protection makes fast removal not only better equipped to deal with them but also needed. Cards like Vindicate are versatile but they are also costly. A turn 1-2 mom on the play is immune to vindicate until you're ready to blow at least one other piece of removal.

You can't cut vindicate for being slow as they play swords, including Feast and Famine (which I'm still against but I'm sure there's got to be a reason to play it... outside of us).

The thing that I'd say that we're looking for is quick removal and a way to sustain the game. So, does red help? If so, How?

sdematt

12-11-2011, 09:57 PM

Red Rock:

1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thrun

3 Vindicate
2 Liliana
1 Elspeth
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

BOARD:

3 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile

---

Basically, you'd be a bunch more control, and you'd forgo the GSZ or SFM route. REB helps handle the Jace issue some of us were having, and both Grip and Grudge is a saucy play. The only other thing I'd want in the 75 is a 1-of Life from the Loam, in any list we're playing. I was playing against BUG Control with 1-of Life and they rolled me a few times with it. Thoughts?

-Matt

sdematt

12-12-2011, 01:56 PM

By the way, this recently celebrated its one-year anniversary. Hooray!

-Matt

ForlornEgoist

12-12-2011, 02:23 PM

Decklist

8 Tarmogoyf? Wow, you are, indeed, a "Bouse." :D

Overall the list is quite agreeable with me. I've been hop-scotching between GSZ and SFM builds trying to find that ideal match that would put me ahead and ultimately each build has had weaknesses that proved too costly for my meta. I've been considering returning to a more classic build, and I think the one you posted is a good start.

I like that you are using that 1-of Sylvan Library. While I've always been reluctant to let go of the ability of Top to dig for an answer many times I find myself mana-shy and essentially sacrificing mana in the hopes I'll be able to dig for more mana. Library seems like a good replacement for at least 1 Top. The REB/Grudge definitely are nice, affordable answers (which yes, we have Vindicate, but I don't always want to spend an entire turn trying to get rid of 1 threat).

2 Mox? Since you're running a 4th color, however light a splash, wouldn't you want at least 3 to assure that losing your only red source doesn't rob you of the ability to cast Red spells? I assume the reasoning is that because your're running 3 Planeswalkers and as such are returning Rock to the more mid-late game that you're worried about drawing dead Moxes. Am I correct?

I'm not overly fond of Bog however I assume this is based more towards your meta.

Ultimately, I agree with your build as the Red is an insanely light splash that provides us with some cheap, generic answers.

Forlorn Egoist

sdematt

12-12-2011, 03:36 PM

It's supposed to be 4 Knight. Whoops :P

The Library has been insane. Absolutely the tits. It doesn't replace Top, but it's a nice addition to the card drawing array of Confidant and Top. I'd definitely play at least 1. In many matchups (non-tempo matchups, since it gets Spell Snared like a sucker) it's great, since the life loss isn't as crucial.

Regarding the 3rd Mox, I don't have the room, and the dead draw issue.

-Matt

Seems Good

12-16-2011, 12:35 PM

What sideboard picks have people been having success with lately vs. RUG Tempo? I like Choke for the random Landstill matchups but it seems too slow vs. Tempo.

Pernicious Deed? What else?

sdematt

12-16-2011, 01:03 PM

Path to Exile is pretty much the nut-high. Fetch that, ya bastards.

-Matt

damionblackgear

12-16-2011, 01:10 PM

I've been going:

-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Top
+3 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 Library

... on the draw. I figure that I don't need to worry about counters post board. I just need to but time. The Library/Top switch is to keep mana up. Sometimes, you need to dig a little to find removal or a win condition.

On the draw I'm going:

-4 Thoughtsieze
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Jitte
+3 Dismember
+2 Choke

The Pulses are being pulled because on the play I shouldn't need as much removal and have the advantage of an early Choke. They can't afford to keep their counters in. And if they do the boarding options change. I don't really ever grab force against them and as a result, for a Thoughtsezie to really be a discard 3 if it resolves. Baiting force isn't that difficult when they can't do anything else to stop a threat.

If they keep Force, play and draw are the same. Choke's become less relevant as they have counter magic that you really don't want to spend time baiting to Choke. Most of the time, you'll have to deal with a quick threat anyway. It's not like before where you had a couple turns before they got to Threshold for Mongoose.

-3 Pulse
-1 Batterskull
+3 Dismember
+1 Jitte

Again, Pulse isn't the greatest when you're aiming at their speedy creatures. I have had one instance of Goyf being a 5/6 when I had a dismember and I didn't win that match. It wasn't because they had the goyf though. They had Stifle, Snapcaster, Bolt and 5 lands to Stop the Liliana and maze, then kill me.

I'm still tweaking my boarding options but this has been pretty useful to me. I'm also not fetching the Skull in most games, unless I have the other pieces of equipment. The SFM has too much of an target to last a turn (typically) and I'd rather force them to deal with every creature being a threat (Jitte) or removal (SoFI).

Jitte is the biggest thing in this match. Being able to have every creature be able to either swing into or kill everything they play is huge.

I keep the Lili's in as the deck is already very vulnerable to Stifle. Knight Triggers, Fetches, SGM, Equip, etc, etc. Her plus ability is very useful against the deck because you're getting them to topdeck mode faster, one way or another. Their deck has a lot of filter but, it doesn't matter when you're spending you're entire turn doing it to discard. 18 lands sucks when you're being forced to use it to filter instead of playing threats. Also, Every land play on their end essentially shrinks their hand by 1.

JadeOberg

12-16-2011, 07:17 PM

Has anyone tried running a hexmage/dark depths list with KotR and Living Wish lately?

dsck

12-17-2011, 12:15 AM

Has anyone tried running a hexmage/dark depths list with KotR and Living Wish lately?

With all the Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Snares around this seems as dumb as it gets.

JadeOberg

12-17-2011, 12:07 PM

With all the Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Snares around this seems as dumb as it gets.

I get that, just wondering if someone has dedicated any time in to testing a list before I attempt to. Besides, not so much Canadian in my meta...

muscleb

12-17-2011, 06:07 PM

I get that, just wondering if someone has dedicated any time in to testing a list before I attempt to. Besides, not so much Canadian in my meta...

I think it was discussed several pages back

sdematt

12-18-2011, 01:25 AM

It's not very good at the moment, and most people haven't had success with it.

-Matt

sdematt

12-23-2011, 02:26 AM

Just checking in to wish you gents a Merry Christmas!

-Matt

AggroSteve

12-23-2011, 11:53 AM

same to you matt, and of course to everyone else too

merry christmas

btw. so you got something to think about during the holydays, i am right now testing a more traditional build with Moxen LftL and Liliana

24 lands
4 mox diamond

4 bob
4 goyf
4 knight

4 stop
3 vindicate
1 LftL
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 hymn
4 thoughtseize
3 divining top

liliana is a blast, when i first saw her i though she's nice but not extremely good, but my testings changed my mind completely, with confidant or loam active her first ability is pain in the a**, and her second ability breaks symmetry like a champ. Her last ability rarely sees play, but if that should happen it is allmost like an "I-win-button"

in this list i am thinking of replacing the stronghold with nantuko monastery or treetop village to up a bit the threatcount

which one would you use?

again happy holydays and merry christmas

sdematt

12-30-2011, 12:24 AM

AggroSteve, I'd cut 1 Mox Diamond for another piece of removal or discard, or possibly a Sylvan Library.

@ Everyone

Hope you all had a great Christmas! Anyone get any nice Magic stuff for Christmas?

---

So, I was looking through my box of stuff today and I'm doing a bit of thinking for my next article for "Talking Shop." I want to talk about the Rock in Legacy, and why playing BWG/BGR is good in Legacy.

I think what we need to be looking at is the format from the ground up, at this very moment. What are the good decks, and what cards do we need to fight them, no matter the colour? Right now we know RUG Tempo, Reanimator, Maverick, and and UW Stoneblade are the Tier 1 decks in the format, so I think we need to focus on at least doing very well against 2 of these, and doing decently well against at least one other.

We need to look at the basic cards they hate to see, how we grind advantage without playing Blue, and what makes us better than them.

Taking each deck at a time, I'm going to try and show why it's good in the format, and what it hates to see. I think if we take the common denominators out of all the decks, we can find a happy medium that does well against many decks (which is one of the old hallmarks of a true Rock deck).

Reanimator:
Why are you so good?
Ball-busting, back-breaking plays that can be made by Turn 2. The game can actually end on Turn 3 by returning Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger or Iona, Shield of Emeria. Most decks can't deal with either, especially when Reanimation is backed by Countermagic or disruption. Iona shuts out your primary removal colour, so having removal in an alternate colour is a near necessity to beating Iona.
What do you hate to see?
Graveyard hate, but can be played against using Show and Tell, but their job becomes harder. Karakas takes out most of their guys, and is a tutorable card using Knight of the Reliquary. Extirpate shuts off their countermagic and removes multiple copies of back-breaking fatties, like Jin-Gitaxis. Heavy Countermagic is also a weakness to Reanimator, but isn't terribly relevant assuming we want to be in BWG. Targeted discard spells slow down Reanimator by taking away discard spells or reanimation spells. It doesn't break a topdeck, but it can slow them down enough for you to have mana up or find another piece of hate.

The key here is turn off their ability to get creatures in the bin, and to have a clock and the ability to deal with a landed bomb. If you can deal with a Jin or Iona, you're fine.

Cards of use: Thoughtseize (and other 1 CMC discard), Extirpate (Surgical isn't as good here, since they can just Entomb again), Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Scavenging Ooze, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Ghastly Demise, Tariff, Deathmark, Retribution of the Meek, Vindicate.

UW Stoneblade:
Why are you so good?
Stoneblade has so much value in every card they play. They have a heavy countermagic suite to counter relevant spells, a rock-solid manabase full of basic lands, and 8 pieces of targeted removal after boarding, along with 4 Snapcaster and 2 Wrath of God. They carry a heavy arsenal of up to 5 game-changing planeswalkers that directly affect the board and must be dealt with immediately, or affect how you can answer them in the future. They have the ability to easily win the attrition war through Planeswalkers or Equipment, which usually outmatches creatures you can put on your side.

What do you hate to see?
Stoneblade relies on heavy amounts of removal and countermagic, so denying them this is good. Targeted Discard can help pluck Planeswalkers or Stoneforge or Equipment before they hit the table, allowing you to get better use of your removal. Active Library Manipulation helps counteract an active Jace, and helps put you on par with their ability to Brainstorm. Uncounterability can be a huge swing in this matchup, since cards like Krosan Grip and Thrun turn off the core of their deck: removal and countermagic. If you can turn off the SFM aspect of their game, all they are left with is the Planeswalker avenue, which can be answered with heavy creature combat.

The key here is to kill an inactive SFM before it can drop Equipment, to destroy said Equipment, and to keep Jace off the board.

Cards of use: Swords to Plowshares (taking out inactive SFM), Path (not the greatest since they have tons of basics), Ghastly Demise, Vindicate (kill Jace + Equipment), Thoughtseize (pluck Jace, SFM, Equipment, etc), Hymn To tourach (all their cards are pure value, take any and all if you can), Thrun (turn off their removal and counters), Sword of Light and Shadow (turn off their removal and gain pro: Germ), Top and Sylvan (to get ahead on cards), Dark Confidant (to help counteract the fact you'll have to truck through several counterspells, plus it is a removal magnet).

RUG Tempo
Why are you so good?
RUG Tempo has an excellent mana denial package (Wasteland and Stifle) combined with cheap and efficient countermagic (Force, Daze, Spell Snare) than can be run off of minimal mana and is effective with mana denial. It has cheap threats, than when backed with light countermagic and minimal mana of the opponent, go the distance. Red gives Tempo huge reach and game against Planeswalkers and SFM, and gives them access to REB from the board (one of the most important considerations in this meta as of late).

What don't you like to see?
RUg Tempo doesn't plat the attrition game well. 1 CMC Removal is a beating against them if there's no Mental Misstep to help them out. 8-10 pieces of removal is too much for them to handle. Large creatures or Equipment trump their small and efficient threats, and their low removal density means they can't handle a large Knight or Tarmogoyf very well. Basic Lands are important in surviving the Stifle/Wasteland onslaught and are key to keeping you in-colour and on-removal. They don't play any basic lands, so Path to Exile is so one-sided it isn't even funny.

If you can survive the initial battering and deal with their creatures, you get to out value all of their threats, and outclass most of their cards. When they have to start doing 2 and 3-for-1's to get any value, you've won.

Cards of use: 1 CMC Removal (Path, Swords, Ghastly), Thoughtseize (taking Snapcasters, Bolts, Grips, etc.), Pernicious Deed (easy to sweep a board of 0 and 1 drops), Engineered Explosives, Liliana of the Veil (discard and repeat sacrifice is good), Knight of the Reliquary (bigger than anything they have), Tarmogoyf (bigger than most things they have), Thrun (bigger than most things, doesn't get mucked by removal).

GW Maverick
Why are you so good?
An insane threat density backed with a repeatable tutor is nothing to sneeze at. Maverick is able to power up to a ton of mana and fetch whatever they need. They win at creature combat because they have access to SFM and Knight, since both outmatch most creatures out their. Maverick can run SFM well for a non-blue deck since they can recover easily from a mucked SFM, or can do something else on subsequent turns and still have mana to do SFM tricks, which is key. Knight gives them access to Karakas, Bog, Maze, etc. and is by far their biggest threat. Both Rangers, Scryb and Quirion, allow multiple uses of Knight and more importantly Mother of Runes, which makes getting removal on board near impossible. This deck punishes non-Combo Blue by making Force of Will a bad card, since they have so many threats, going down 2 to counter 1 spells your demise.

What don't you like to see?
Hand disruption can get rid of GSZ or a Mother of Runes, saving precious removal for later in the game. Equipment destruction puts their creatures on an almost level playing field as other creatures. Mass or targeted removal can wipe out all of their advantage in numbers or specialty creatures, like Ooze.

If you can leverage advantage against their GSZ Engine, or have answers to their creatures and Equipment, you're usually fine. This means you need to draw more cards, have more removal, and have more answers.

Cards to use: Perish, Virtue's Ruin, Pernicious Deed, Massacre, Path, Swords, Deathmark, Knight of the Reliquary (with Bog, Maze, etc.), Dark Confidant (Sylvan, Top, etc.), Thoughtseize, Vindicate, Krosan Grip, Liliana of the Veil, Thrun (they bring in 3 Paths from the board), Gaddock Teeg (shutting down GSZ).

-----------------------------------

So, what does this really leave us with? Well, it looks like we're back where we started: we want to run a deck using Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary, Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshares, Krosan Grip, Vindicate, additional 1 CMC removal, Extirpate, Bojuka Bog/Karakas/Maze of Ith, and perhaps Thrun, Teeg, Deed, etc.

You need to have hand disruption, 4-10 pieces of targeted removal, 1-3 pieces of mass removal, 1-3 Krosan Grip,1-4 Vindicate, Karakas, Knight of the Reliquary, Dark Confidant, and with some certainty, not SFM. Why? We can't invest that heavily in SFM on turn 2 and attempt to ride it out from turns 2-4 in a format full of Stifle, Bolt, Swords, which we can't do anything about. We don't have the mana development (Maverick has Cradle, Hierarchs) to be able to develop SFM and play other cards during those turns, or to protect it with the same amount of Force as Stoneblade can with 15+ counterspells.

So, that's what I've got to say at the moment. This may really work into my article, but I want to build a list from the ground up, using this data.

But, my main point for posting: We need additional 1 CMC removal, so why not use something that hoses most of the relevant matchups. I think right now, Deathmark is well positioned. Even at sorcery speed, it allows you to get rid of a SFM without getting Spell Snared and doesn't accelerate Stoneblade like Path does. It's off colour removal against Renanimator that kills Iona and doesn't require cards in the graveyard like Ghastly Demise does, and doesn't easily put you in Daze range like Diabolic Edict does. It hits Angel of Despair and Sphinx, but doesn't hit Jin, true. It shits on Maverick like a fucking champ, and takes out Tarmogoyfs in RUG Tempo. Plus, we can always board Path as removal 7 and 8 for those corner case situations at the moment where Deathmark doesn't cut it. This would be a snap-call if Deathmark was an instant, but it isn't. So, as an additional piece of removal to 4 Swords in the main, how do you all feel about 2-of Deathmark in the main? It's off colour to deal with Iona, and it mucks SFM.

Thoughts?

-Matt

AggroSteve

12-31-2011, 09:30 AM

as additional (to swords to plowshares) removal maindeck i am using 3 vindicates and 2 liliana of the veil right now
but i thought for the sideboard we could use 2 paths and maybe 2 darkblasts (darkblast actually is awesome against maverick, taking out arbor, hierarch, mother, and all the other X/1 in the meta right now), but deathmark is truly a nice thing, specially with the decks to beat right now, it has application in every matchup, with reanimator being the only one that is a bit mediocre

actually jitte would be a nice card as it would count as additional removal, but is not perfectly used since our threat-density is a bit low, but in a list without mox and maybe in these 4 slots 2 jitte and 2 quasali or something would work fine too

basically my sideboard would look like this

3 deed
3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deathmark / darkblast
2 thrunn
3 flexible slots (diabolic edict, krosan grip, inquisition of kozilek, duress, gaddock teeg, life from the loam.... so much is possible here)

my list is allmost the same as i posted previously, with the only exception of adding a second horizon canopy and in place of volrath's stronghold a nantuko monastery, which is surprisingly awesome, but could also be replaced with treetop village if you would not want to depend on your grave to much

@ sdmatt: i have to agree on your opinion on SFM in this deck, it really is not worth the effort, i would also say GSZ is not optimal in the rock, since we have not the same options as other decks abusing it

only thing i have to disagree is the 4th mox diamond in my list, with liliana maindeck, the 4th mox does not disturb at all and will most likely be discarded with liliana, i only wish i had place for another loam (allready running 61 cards)
i will at least try 3 mox and 2 loams, but right now the 4th mox has been fine for me

comandantenorton83

12-31-2011, 01:26 PM

@aggroSteve:
Just want to say that, about the jitte being used as removal, I used to play with 3 bitterblossom and 2 jittes MD, and it worked very well as reusable removal and board presence (and many times as an alternative wincon). Must say that fareies attacked and chumpblocked like a champ, and carried jitte vey well.

@sdematt
Agree with the idea of SFM being not worth the slot. Too mana-intensive, and it took your first precious turns to set up just to get blown. Not sure about GSZ package.

AggroSteve

12-31-2011, 01:44 PM

@comandantenorton83

nice pointing out bitterblossom, it's an awesome card and i absolutely hate it to have it against me, it gives you an outstanding boardposition, and coupled with epuipment its a blowout, the only downside to it is that deed and bitterblossom do not like each other that much, and if i have to choose between deed and bitterblossom i will allways go with deed, obviously that should not hinder anyone to use both in their deck

about the GSZ package, you have to try it to understand well enough how it works, in the right meta this can really be strong, but in a unknown meta it is not that strong IMO, specially since you need much more green mana, and that way hymn becomes less reliable, and if you still want to run hymn your manabase gets a bit shaky and in a meta full of stifle and wasteland thats not the optimal choice;
this is my expierience with it, and may of course differ from other people expierience

novatinhu

12-31-2011, 03:57 PM

Based on comandantenorton83 comments i build this list, do you think it have any chance of sucess?

Cya guys.

// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse

ESG

12-31-2011, 05:29 PM

Excellent assessment, Matt. As another option for 1cc removal, there's Vendetta. It's instant-speed, hits Jin, can hit Iona if they cut you off white, plays well with Bob and isn't dependent on the graveyard. It can also hit artifact creatures, so you can snipe a Sphinx or a Painter's Servant if you need to.

sdematt

01-01-2012, 04:52 AM

Happy New Year!

Thanks for the comments, all.

I'm also leaning towards dropping Hymn (gasp!). Why? Well, it's pretty miserable against Reanimator, I've had it Spell Snared so much against Stoneblade and Tempo, and sometimes you don't hit the cards you want.

Now, don't me wrong, the randomness can be AWESOME, as we've all seen. But, I'm wondering for the sake of the manabase (and to not be obligated to get BB on turn 2 somehow) and for improving our Stoneblade and Reanimator matchup, why not go with 8x 1 CMC discard, just like our removal package?

It gives us flexibility in the fact we still have game (I don't want to drop discard for sure) against the format via interaction by discard. It allows us to pinpoint what we want to take and take it. I was playing tons of test games against Stoneblade and Hymn was somewhat miserable when they had an equipment in hand and I couldn't grab it for sure, and my discard was open to shenanigans via Spell Snare. This give us more ways to grab Jace for sure as well. I will agree you don't get card quantity here, just quality (I mean, you get to choose).

I mean, try it or don't, but I'm just brainstorming here. Even against Maverick, sometimes you'd rather take the one card you want instead of two of the garbage you don't. I was thinking of splitting 3 Thoughtseize 3 Inquisition 2 Duress. It gives us 5 answers to Jace and anything over 3 CMC that's a non-creature, 6 answers to a creature 3 or less (all the relevant ones you'd want them to discard), 8 answers to noncreatures costing less than 3 (as in, most of the relevant equipment minus BS), etc.

Thoughts?

@ Novatinhu

You always have a chance for success!

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Why the Bitterblossom? Want to explain this choice to us?

-Matt

Einherjer

01-01-2012, 05:58 AM

Even though im not that experienced with The Rock, I am very experienced in BW-Midrange.

My thoughts on Hymn to Tourach:

I would NOT cut it, just because of following reasons.

1) VS Control.dec you can easily play a T2 Hymn - wether it gets countered, or you take 2 random cards, which is really really really good against any nonGY.dec. Then you can easily drop any CC2/3 drop T3 - which ensures you a relativly high percentage of being able to land your threat. My deck is very(99%^^) focused on the CC2 slot - so I am NOT afraid of SpellSnare as my whole .dec consists of CC2.

So Hymn is a very strong proactive protection against any deck that plays counter or removal.

2) VS Hard Control.dec like CounterThopter, Superfriends or what else, this card is so important to break their cardequality as soon as possible - so after the Hymn you got +1 and just gotta drop down all your stuff

Yes Hymn is garbage vs alot of Aggro.decs when youre not playing acceleration a'la Mox.

To Bitterblossom: I for myself play 3 Bitterblossom in my BW Midrange.dec. When youre having problems with Stoneblade Bitterblossom is all you need. Stoneblade CANT deal with Bitterblossom, once it resolves. Only after the board some Stoneblades have EE - which stillis ok. But what will ensure a Bitterblossom vs Stoneblade? Discard: Best: Hymn to Tourach.

You see, i really wouldnt cut Hymn.

Greetings

sdematt

01-01-2012, 06:09 AM

I think both routes have merit, tbh. I'll test some more and let y'all know.

-Matt

comandantenorton83

01-01-2012, 07:39 AM

What I'm playing right now is:

23 lands

//creatures
4 Dark confidant
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

//spells
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Inquisition of kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Maelstrom pulse
2 Sensei's divining top

//Others
2 Umezawa's jitte
3 Bitterblossom
2 Engineered explosives
1 Elspeth, knight-errant

Usually I try with different cards in the EE (works great with bb, much more than Deed does, as AggroSteve pointed wisely) and Elspeth (makes your creatures flying beasts; even bob gets upgraded to a kind of tombstalker) slots, but at the moment this is what I play, and I'm happy with the build.

Maybe have to make room for a #24 land or #3 top, not sure, and maybe have to change it to try GSZ package. But, here you have the list, just in case anyone is interested.

Happy new year!

SpikeyMikey

01-01-2012, 03:47 PM

I'm only running 2 Hymns in my version. Honestly, I've never been as big on Hymn as everyone else was. It's a very solid card, and I definitely want it in my 75, great vs. combo and control, but against TA and RUG Tempo, it's not where I want to be. The double black constrains my mana against disruptive decks.

Toolbox Rock

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Glissa, the Traitor

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

Sideboard

4 Extirpate
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Pernicious Deed

I feel like the Rock has always been a deck that's about grinding out games; that's why I've never run Mox Diamond or other cards just to give me an initial tempo burst (GSZ can be tempo, but it's also excellent utility). It's not worth it when you look at the percentages. Basically, I just want to draw better than my opponent every game, so I try and give myself the tools to do it.

sdematt

01-01-2012, 03:53 PM

AggroSteve

01-02-2012, 07:12 AM

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2012, 07:43 AM

I'm running a Noble (for Exatled) and Birds (for mana fixing, not acceleration), so I feel like we're on the same page. I see where you're going with the GSZ and SFM package, and I think if you can make it work, cool. I just haven't in my terribly aggro-rich meta.

-Matt

Yeah, I play it on Workstation where there's a lot of RUG Tempo and Team America. It wouldn't be nearly as nice in an aggressive meta, although I would probably keep SFM in and swap SoFI out for a Jitte. The lifegain from SoLS can be very nice, especially if you're running a little creature heavy where it can recur blockers.

Richard Cheese

01-02-2012, 10:47 AM

Happy New Year!

Thanks for the comments, all.

I'm also leaning towards dropping Hymn (gasp!). Why? Well, it's pretty miserable against Reanimator, I've had it Spell Snared so much against Stoneblade and Tempo, and sometimes you don't hit the cards you want.

Now, don't me wrong, the randomness can be AWESOME, as we've all seen. But, I'm wondering for the sake of the manabase (and to not be obligated to get BB on turn 2 somehow) and for improving our Stoneblade and Reanimator matchup, why not go with 8x 1 CMC discard, just like our removal package?

It gives us flexibility in the fact we still have game (I don't want to drop discard for sure) against the format via interaction by discard. It allows us to pinpoint what we want to take and take it. I was playing tons of test games against Stoneblade and Hymn was somewhat miserable when they had an equipment in hand and I couldn't grab it for sure, and my discard was open to shenanigans via Spell Snare. This give us more ways to grab Jace for sure as well. I will agree you don't get card quantity here, just quality (I mean, you get to choose).

I mean, try it or don't, but I'm just brainstorming here. Even against Maverick, sometimes you'd rather take the one card you want instead of two of the garbage you don't. I was thinking of splitting 3 Thoughtseize 3 Inquisition 2 Duress. It gives us 5 answers to Jace and anything over 3 CMC that's a non-creature, 6 answers to a creature 3 or less (all the relevant ones you'd want them to discard), 8 answers to noncreatures costing less than 3 (as in, most of the relevant equipment minus BS), etc.

Thoughts?

@ Novatinhu

You always have a chance for success!

Why the Bitterblossom? Want to explain this choice to us?

-Matt

Matt,

Are you still keeping an eye on Nic Fit? The more I play with it, the more I think Cabal Therapy is the best 1cmc discard around, and supporting it is really not that hard. Run a few more basics and Explorer over Birds/Noble and you're halfway there. The sticking point is the ability to run KotR. Explorer blanks Waste which makes Knight worse, which makes utility lands worse, etc. Overall though, the decks feel really similar to play...disrupt early, grind out wins. Maybe we can still abuse Therapy without the Explorer/basics plan?

Skeggi

01-02-2012, 11:21 AM

I've seen a guy run Gerrard's Verdict in the slot of Hymn, because of the manabase. Getting WB is alot easier than BB. It seemed to work out okay, apparently 2-for-1-ing is still important when discarding, I wouldn't change Hymn too fast for a 1-for-1. But then again, if Spell Snare is your problem this doesn't help, ofcourse.

comandantenorton83

01-02-2012, 11:41 AM

happy new year to everyone

@ comandantenorton83: i really like your list, and if you want to run a 24th land and the 3rd top, which i would both recommend. I would cut the engineered explosives, or move them to the sideboard, as you allready got permanent-removal maindeck in form of maelstrom pulse
well i do not know your meta, but the EE would be the first 2 things IMO that could be cut

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll cut the 2xEE to put in the 24th land and the 3rd top. Before, I tried with deed MB, but its obvious dis-sinergy with bitterblossom make it a bad choice here. I will move both EE to SB and try it.

My meta is a bit unknown: I don't have so much time to play as I would want, and every time I go to my local shop I find new people, so I have to guess. Last time I faced merfolk, aggroLoam, eva green, deadguy ale and a kind of bant, and I only lost to aggroLoam in the first round and in the final, but I have to say I didn't own the Maze of Ith yet, neither the Karakas (wich I still don't own).

With Bitterblossom, some IoK can be replaced with Cabal Therapy, but I don't do it at the moment because, as I said, I don't know my meta and I hate to waste therapys on unknown players with unknown decks. But it is a card to consider, as far as I am concerned.

On the one hand, I don't run SFM nor GSZ packages, so the only tutor-effect I have is KotR searching for lands. I have one scavenging ooze and I want to try it, but as an 1-of without GSZ, it seems a bit random.

On the other hand, I'm happy with the list so far, and I don't plan to cut off the BB+jitte plan. As all we know, it is difficult to fit in just 60 cards all our plans :-)

sdematt

01-02-2012, 05:43 PM

@ Spikey

I think running both SFM and GSZ is running the deck at the redline, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it causes a bit of watering down on both strategies. Nothing wrong with that, though.

@ Cheese

Nic Fit is a cool deck, but it's different. It's very similar to the Rock decks of old, with long grindy wins. Nothing wrong with that, though.

I really want to play a BWG version of Nic Fit with Explorers, Knights, etc. along with Innocent Bloods and Worm Harvest. Like a BWG Land based control deck...if you want I can send along what I have worked on, on and off.

@ Skeggi

That's definitely an avenue to go, and your suggestion is interesting. The Spell Snare thing is the issue, but I agree obviously two cards are better than one :tongue:. The Hymn's randomness can sometimes be amazing, because at times they'll just muck lands or crap to leave their Equipment/Planeswalkers.

@ All

If we could run 80 cards, we'd be just fine :tongue:

-Matt

Nelis

01-03-2012, 04:28 PM

Cabal Therapy gets you two cards. I know it comes with a drawback but did you ever consider running them?

lavafrogg

01-04-2012, 12:31 AM

Cabal therapy is really good when you are lucky and can destroy someone's hand but more often than not you will blind cast it turn one and then not be able to flash it back until it is too late. Gobos and elves could use it to fight combo due to the fact that they can throw away dorks to not lose the game, any creature rock runs needs to stay alive(except explorer and his kin)

sdematt

01-04-2012, 03:41 AM

Went balls to the walls tonight and placed second at the local Legacy event.

I ran:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Deathmark
3 Vindicate
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith

BOARD

1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

The list ran really well. I think at times it can be a *tad* mana light, but otherwise, was great.

Round 1: Dan with Reanimator

I open a crappy 7 and 6 card hand, and have to throw them back. I put Dan on either High tide or possibly Reanimator. I keep an Inquisition, Swords, Swords, Plains, Scrubland 5-card hand. He does the turn-2 Jin reanimation, but I have Swords and breathing room for Daze. I slow-roll Dan by topdecking removal and hand disruption. I land a Knight and beat in for 2 with Dark Confidant, keeping Knight up to fetch Maze/Karakas. He scoops.

In: +2 Path, +1 Virtue's Ruin, +1 Ooze, +2 Extirpate, +1 Bog
Out: -4 Hymn, -1 Qasali, -1 Vindicate, -1 Dark Confidant

Game 2 I keep a hand with Top, Extirpate, Dark Confidant, and 4 Lands. I draw Scavenging Ooze, and I also rip a Knight. I lay Knight out safely while keeping Extirpate mana up, but he's on the Show and Tell plan. I top into Ooze and slam it, then Deathmark away his Blazing Archon. I start beating with a 4/4 Ooze, and he doesn't get anything in the yard or another Show and Tell target.

Round 2: Brandon with Stoneblade.

Here's where I shit the bed. I open a terrible 7 card, a worse 6 card, and an awful 5 card. At this point, I keep, but I'm on full tilt. I wasn't watching Brandon play well enough, and I Thoughtseized away his Sword of Feast and Famine. We trade Wastelands, and he drops SFM, which I remove. I drop Goyf, but then swing into another active SFM which drops Batterskull. I tilt even more, and then try to Vindicate away his Batterskull, not realizing he has 3 mana open. If I would have waiting to Vindicate his Jace, I would have won the game. Next turn I used GSZ for Qasali and mucked his Batterskull, but the Jace he landed took over the game. He kept throwing creatures in front of Jace and bouncing other ones I had, and I couldn't finish it off. Eventually, I ran out of steam after he countered a Top, and then just beat me to death with Clique. I think had I played correctly, I would have won that game.

In: +2 Grip, +2 Thrun, +1 Teeg.
Out: -4 Hymn, -1 Scavenging Ooze

I open a decent 7 card with 2 lands, hand disruption, Vindicate, Grip, Thrun, etc., but he has a double Wasteland hand. I proceed to draw no lands for seven consecutive turns, and then just scoop out of frustration once he lands Jace. It happens.

Round 3: Jacob with 5-colour Zoo

Game 1 I grind Jacob out using my infinite removal and large Knights. He can't keep guys online against 6 pieces of removal and Vindicates.

In: +2 Path, +2 Deed, +1 Perish
Out: -4 Hymn, -1 Dark Confidant

Game 2 he has the perfect god-hand and curves into everything. I draw garbage and brick with too many lands.

Game 3 is a long game where we fight over the board. I open a hand with 2 Swords and Knights, but he has Relic. I make him blow the Relic, and he Paths 3 Knights of mine. I rip Thrun and proceed to beat his face. He tries to land creatures, but I've got either Deed or direct removal. He tries to keep Dark Confidant online, but I Path/Swords it away. I grind him out while I'm at 7 life, and get him down from 30.

All in all, I went 4-4 in games, which isn't bad, considering one was bad luck and one was me playing poorly. I'm quite happy with Deathmark, even if I didn't get to muck Iona (but I did get a Steel Wind with one).

-Matt

myselves

01-04-2012, 12:31 PM

Why do you play Hymn over more cc1 Discard? Considering it's the first card to board out and that cc1 Discard won't be countered by Snare?

lavafrogg

01-04-2012, 01:42 PM

sdematt

01-04-2012, 01:44 PM

But, which cards do you cut in the Stoneblade matchup? You essentially want more of everything, and Hymn is the weakest slot in that matchup. In all the matchups I played, it was the weaker or weakest slot, except for Zoo. I think I could have maybe cut a Vindicate and just shaved numbers, but it was fine.

-Matt

Richard Cheese

01-04-2012, 03:47 PM

Hymn has a chance to win you the game on turn 2 every time you cast it. Taking the 2 best cards in your opponents hand and leaving them with nothing is one of the most vicious things that a deck can do. In multiples you can completely empty someones hand on turn three and coupled with land destruction/creature removal, you can cut them off of a resource completely.
That being said, it always 2-1's your opponent and if you have ever had a hymn resolve against you then you know what it means to pray.

Half these statements are outright false.

Hymn does NOT win on turn 2. Tendrils wins on turn 2, Belcher wins on turn 2, Hymn just gives you card advantage and most likely screws up your opponent's early lines of play.

Hymn does NOT always 2-1 the opponent. If they're already in top-deck mode or only have one card in hand, it's either useless or 1-1.

Some decks are really cold to hand disruption and others aren't. I can tell you from experience that a Hymn against Zoo isn't great, but it doesn't break the game. The whole deck is redundant, and you usually hit top-deck mode naturally by turn 3-4 anyway. Decks with Brainstorm (read: a lot) can often mitigate the damage by hiding more critical spells.

I think Hymn is a great card, but it's usefulness diminishes as the game goes on, and even early I'm not sure the extra card is always worth more than the knowledge of what's in the rest of their hand. I think in a 3-color deck without Brainstorm/Ponder, it is absolutely worth exploring running more targeted discard in Hymn's place.

Nelis

01-04-2012, 04:45 PM

I think in a 3-color deck without Brainstorm/Ponder, it is absolutely worth exploring running more targeted discard in Hymn's place.

You have a good point there.

I think a lot of people (I include myself) too often see cards in light of its (potential) power but often fail to see the downsides. If I have to guess (I don't keep track) its just as often that Hymn's BB forced me in making choices that have another negative effect. For instance making me fetch duals in face of opponents Wasteland shenenigans or not being able to cast certain other cards due to color restrictions.

capitacom

01-06-2012, 02:34 AM

I think its mainly a question of if you play mox diamond or not. If you play mox diamond, with hymn and dark confidant you have two great turn one plays off of mox. If you don't play mox, it might be worthwhile to look at lowering your number of hymns for manabase and curve reasons. Without mox, I would want to play six 1 cmc discard spells + top and swords as turn one plays.

SpikeyMikey

01-11-2012, 10:37 AM

Half these statements are outright false.

Hymn does NOT win on turn 2. Tendrils wins on turn 2, Belcher wins on turn 2, Hymn just gives you card advantage and most likely screws up your opponent's early lines of play.

Hymn does NOT always 2-1 the opponent. If they're already in top-deck mode or only have one card in hand, it's either useless or 1-1.

Some decks are really cold to hand disruption and others aren't. I can tell you from experience that a Hymn against Zoo isn't great, but it doesn't break the game. The whole deck is redundant, and you usually hit top-deck mode naturally by turn 3-4 anyway. Decks with Brainstorm (read: a lot) can often mitigate the damage by hiding more critical spells.

I think Hymn is a great card, but it's usefulness diminishes as the game goes on, and even early I'm not sure the extra card is always worth more than the knowledge of what's in the rest of their hand. I think in a 3-color deck without Brainstorm/Ponder, it is absolutely worth exploring running more targeted discard in Hymn's place.

I think this is a good place to point out that if people haven't read Mike Flores' "Escalation of Errors", it's a good article that describes this. It was originally premium, but it's free now.

Matt - The SFM package doesn't take up much room. You're looking at 4 slots and because of some of the other cards that I'm running (smaller utility creatures, -->Troll Ascetic<--), I want the equipment anyway to make my creatures into more legitimate threats. The main thing is, the threat light tempo decks simply cannot deal with Troll Ascetic. Pop a Sword on him and they can't race him either.

I'm thinking I might try out the Bitterblossom idea, but where I'll find room for Bitterblossom and Umezawa's Jitte is beyond me.

comandantenorton83

01-11-2012, 10:57 AM

I think this is a good place to point out that if people haven't read Mike Flores' "Escalation of Errors", it's a good article that describes this. It was originally premium, but it's free now.

Matt - The SFM package doesn't take up much room. You're looking at 4 slots and because of some of the other cards that I'm running (smaller utility creatures, -->Troll Ascetic<--), I want the equipment anyway to make my creatures into more legitimate threats. The main thing is, the threat light tempo decks simply cannot deal with Troll Ascetic. Pop a Sword on him and they can't race him either.

I'm thinking I might try out the Bitterblossom idea, but where I'll find room for Bitterblossom and Umezawa's Jitte is beyond me.

As I said, I'm a fan of bitterblossom. Just in case you are interested, I used to run BB and SFM. The list was this:

23 lands

//creatures
4 Dark confidant
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 SFM

//spells
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Inquisition of kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Maelstrom pulse
2 Sensei's divining top

//Equip
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Batterskull

//Others
3 Bitterblossom

I had SoL&S and SoF&I in the sideboard. I liked how it worked, but I got a bit tired of the SFM package and wanted to try something different, so I dropped SFM package (but remained with 2x jittes MB to bitterblossom).

It is not that SFM is bad here, is more because I think SFM package here was a bit "redundant". I mean: I don't need to equip goyf nor KotR, this deck has real threats per se. Sure, SFM works wonders with BB and it makes faeries monsters, and I liked it a lot, but I felt faeries should not be the usual way to win here. Is not a bad way to win at all, but I think it is not our way to win.

I thought of BB more as a *very good* utility card, stabilicing your board presence, giving you blockers so your fat guys can act as single-minded attackers, and, if the swiss-army-knife jitte is appears, making faeries win the match for you. BB&Jitte together are the nuts, but what I appreciate in these two cards is that they are good on their own, and can serve well to our strategy of control the board.