"Beautiful Counter Burn" a deck and short tourney report(51 players)

[Spartacvs]

Hello all,

My name is Sean and I live and play in Tokyo.

I play in 3 legacy tournaments a week at Tomoharu Saitou's card store. (google "mtg hareruya" translate and click "link on the left column, then select the 3rd option "ya clear blog" you can see the top decklist from all the tourneys we play here)

I took 2nd in a 51 player Tournament on January 3rd, 2011 with this

"Beautiful Counter Burn"

Planeswalkers(4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor(WWK)

Enchantments(4)
4 Counterbalance(CS)

Artifacts(4)
4 Sensei's Divining Top(CHK)

Creatures(4)
4 Tarmogoyf(FUT)

Sorceries(2)
2 Ponder(MPR)

Instants(20)
4 Brainstorm(CST)
4 Swords to Plowshares(DD:EvT)
4 Force of Will(AL)
4 Punishing Fire(ZEN)
4 Counterspell(DD:JvC)

Lands(22)
1 Island(UNH)
1 Tropical Island(REV)
2 Tundra(REV)
4 Volcanic Island(REV)
2 Polluted Delta(ONS)
2 Flooded Strand(ONS)
2 Scalding Tarn(ZEN)
2 Misty Rainforest(ZEN)
2 Cascade Bluffs(EVE)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows(FUT)

Sideboard(15)
4 Divert(OD)
4 Engineered Explosives(FD)
3 Firespout(SDM)
2 Forbid(EX)
2 Krosan Grip(TSP)


The entry fee was 1000yen and the prize was a box of Scars and 1 English pack of Legends

I went 5-1 losing in round 5 to the only other person who was 4-0 and I won the last round

R1 (2-0)
I have the decklist(pretty close) because he 4-1'd a box tourney just like this on Dec 30th
G1 I get CB lock and counter 3 malestrom pulse and then he plays P. Deed after he deeds I drop Jace and fateseal him out

G2 he mulls to 6 and I make him Thought Seize himself and discard his only other spell in hand, A maelstrom Pulse (I love a Divert)

/ "GB Smallpox"
4 "Swamp / Swamp (UNH)"
1 "Forest / Forest (UNH)"
3 "Bayou (3ED)"
1 "Scrubland (3ED)"
4 Verdant Catacombs (ZEN)"
3 Marsh Flats (ZEN)"
4 Treetop Village (10E)"
1 Twilight Mire (EVE)"
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (PLC)"
1 Volrath's Stronghold (STH)"
- Land (23) -

4 Tarmogoyf (FUT)"
4 Dark Confidant (RAV)"
3 Eternal Witness (5DN)"
3 Kitchen Finks (SHM)"
- Creature (14) -
4 Thoughtseize (LRW)"
4 "Hymn to Tourach (FEM)"
4 Smallpox (TSP)"
3 Duress (M10)"
3 Smother (ONS)"
3 Maelstrom Pulse (ARB)"
2 Umezawa's Jitte (BOK)"

- Spell (23) -
4 Tormod's Crypt (CHR)"
3 Extirpate (PLC)"
3 Pernicious Deed (APC)"
1 Duress (M10)"
1 Smother (ONS)"
1 Maelstrom Pulse (ARB)"
1 Umezawa's Jitte (BOK)"
1 Kitchen Finks (SHM)"
- Sideboard (15) -


R2 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek Combo
2-1

G1 he has the nutz and he apparently plays more than 2 Thopter Foundry ( I counter the first 2)
G2 he resolves Zero Spells
G3 He resolves a t1 Relic of Progenitus... thats it

After this match I'm just pumped as ever about my choice of deck and being about to completely lock opponents out.


R3 B/R/W Reanimator(2-1)

His deck is pretty Japanese crazy with Solitary Confinement/Squee Goblin Nabob and Undead Gladiator but his fattys of choice were pretty standard (Iona, Terrastadon) but I did see some less obvious choices Thraximundar! and Angel of Despair and Bloodmoon

G2 I lose to this
him: swamp, go. me: Island, go. Him: eot entomb for Angel of Despair!! untap, reanimate .... I play my fetch and get tundra to deal with the angel but i never get a 2nd land after that. I could have won easily if i had led with my fetch land instead :<.

g1,g3 were easy wins. He gets iona into play and says white so i play jace and bounce it. he reanimates terrastodon and kills my jace and a land but i drop goyf and then he cant attck with his 9/9 i drop another goyf and pass then i swing in with one goyf and 4 mana up he blocks with his 9/9 and i double punishing fire(goyf was 5/6).

R4 vs Zoo 2-0
Dont waste counters on sylvan library board out forces and a ponder for firespout and forbid easy wins

R5 (1-2)

I win G1 off CB lock and get bloodmoon'd G2(nasty card there). G3 I keep a one lander with two brainstorm and a top. I play t1 top and i draw top on turn 2. I pop top to try to draw a land and i draw a 3rd top!! i then try to brainstorm but i get spell pierced. t3 i try to brainstorm again and he counterspells me then untaps and plays needle on top TT. I was never in this game and I die to trinket mage and Vendillion Clique

He won the tourney and opened Karakas from his Legends booster
Naoki Kurokawa / "UR Trinket Contrrol" 6-0
4 Scalding Tarn (ZEN)"
2 Misty Rainforest (ZEN)"
2 "Volcanic Island (3ED)"
9 Island (UNH)"
3 Mountain (USG)"
1 Seat of the Synod (MRD)"
1 Academy Ruins (TSP)"
- Land (23) -

3 Trinket Mage (5DN)"
2 Vendilion Clique (MOR)"
- Creature (5) -
4 "Force of Will (ALL)"
4 Spell Snare (DIS)"
2 Counterspell (TMP)"
4 Brainstorm (5ED)"
4 Lightning Bolt (M10)"
2 Fire//Ice (APC)"
2 Blood Moon (8ED)"
2 Engineered Explosives (5DN)"
1 Sensei's Divining Top (CHK)"
1 Pithing Needle (SOK)"
1 Meekstone (4ED)"
1 Isochron Scepter (MRD)"
1 Vedalken Shackles (5DN)"
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (WWK)"
- Spell (32) -

1 Engineered Explosives (5DN)"
1 Pithing Needle (SOK)"
1 Chalice of the Void (MRD)"
1 Relic of Progenitus (ALA)"
2 Tormod's Crypt (CHR)"
3 Spell Pierce (ZEN)"
3 Red Elemental Blast (4ED)"
1 Ancient Grudge (TSP)"
2 Firespout (SHM)"
- Sideboard (15) -

R6 I will get 2nd(1st if my last opp loses this round) if i win this match and 8 packs instead of 3 so we play it out
BUGw Tempo
2-0
He played Heiarchs, Bobs, Swords, Daze , FoW's, Brainstorms, Ponders, Stifles, Goyfs

Punishing Fire just killed everything he played. I board in Diverts over FoW's but he never plays anything for me to use 'em on(he boarded out his FoW's too.


Card Choices

Punishing Fire/ Grove of the Burnwillows means a few things
Merfolk is a Good Matchup(unlike traditional CB list)
Planeswalkers you opponents play are not going to live
Your Goyf is better than their Goyf
INEVITABILITY in the control MU's
Forbids out of the SB are very good

No Daze/Snare/Pierce 4 Counterspell
Counterspell is awesome and whe you dont care if vial resolves t1 and survival is banned i think it's the best right now.

22 Lands(more than usual CB but this is a control deck that puts all of that extra mana to good use with DI shocks)
Punishing Fire late game means a few adjustments
4 Grove of the Burnwillows We want all 4 because we want it every game and people play wastelands in Legacy. Also having 2 out can be very important in sided games when people bring in extirpate and you need to always leave one up if you have punishing fire in your GY and dont have CB with a 1 on top

we still want 18 sources of blue so we cant cast UU spells on t2
4 Volcanic Island(Punishing Fire is the only red spell but we need lots of red)
1 Island(when you dont know what you are playing against t1 on the play fetch island is pretty safe so you play around stifle and wasteland)
1 Tropical Island(for Goyfs, only need one because of the 4 Groves, I even side it out vs submerge)
2 Tundra(for swords and we need more than one in case of wasteland)
2 Cascade Bluffs(this was the card that finally made the mana work, before this late game i would get into situations where I needed more red so that I could maximize my Punishing Fire effectiveness. As an added bonus to giving awesome late game red mana production you can play t1 grove top t2 bluffs CB)

4 Swords to Plowshares
Swords is the best and this deck makes better use of it than most since you can re-buy P. Fires

No Vendillion Clique
the last thing this deck needs is another threat. this deck has 3 ways to win 4 Jace, Goyfs, and DI Punishing Fires
Ponder is better(than preodain) in the last two spots to play with since ponder into counterbalance is so good since you can set up the blowout"blind" CB flip

This was the third box tournament I've ran this list and I went x-1-1 Id'ing into the top 8(top 8 is for prize purposes only, top 8s are not played out) the other 2 times since only 1st place really mattered and I had taken a loss RD 4.

All in all, I am really happy with this list and dredge is the only match-up I don't want to face. If you like control decks I suggest giving this one a try at your next tourney.

Cheers,

Sean

[Pastorofmuppets]

Not a bad prize for $12 entry. I don't get that much at my weekly draft that I haven't been to in forever.
4 Jaces are probably overkill with all of the dig spells and fetches. 3 Jaces and an extra beater/random bounce spell might do you good.

[Mana Drain]

There is no bigger proponent and fan of Jace, the Baddest MotorFinger than I, but 4 doesn't look right. Two in any opener is an auto mull, even with Force. BS helps mitigate it when it happens over the course of a game, but drawing multiples before you've hit 4 mana is a major possibility (and buzzkill).

Since when did everyone start boarding out FoW against anything but Tribal? Zoo has infinity cards that you don't want to hit the board, and they're all 3 mana or less. Choke, Library, PoP, KotR, Goyf, T1 Nacatl, etc. Pyro/REBing your CS and Forbid when you don't have the Force and one of the mentioned is hitting the board at an inopportune time seems bad. I understand that card advantage is very important against Zoo, but CB isn't a low-profile deck. They have plenty of cards for you postboard, and most of them are cards you don't want to see. Having an "OH SHI-" counter helpful.

Interesting list for sure. Playing in a Japanese metagame must be awesome. Any time that BG Pox 4-1s any tournament, you know your bound for some fun.

[sdematt]

Cool list! Not too shabby for $12 are my thoughts as well :D

Just so you know for next time, this goes under "Tournament Results" subforum :D

-Matt

[Heggie023]

only 4 burn spell? :)

[Rune]

There is no bigger proponent and fan of Jace, the Baddest MotorFinger than I, but 4 doesn't look right. Two in any opener is an auto mull, even with Force. BS helps mitigate it when it happens over the course of a game, but drawing multiples before you've hit 4 mana is a major possibility (and buzzkill).

Since when did everyone start boarding out FoW against anything but Tribal? Zoo has infinity cards that you don't want to hit the board, and they're all 3 mana or less. Choke, Library, PoP, KotR, Goyf, T1 Nacatl, etc. Pyro/REBing your CS and Forbid when you don't have the Force and one of the mentioned is hitting the board at an inopportune time seems bad. I understand that card advantage is very important against Zoo, but CB isn't a low-profile deck. They have plenty of cards for you postboard, and most of them are cards you don't want to see. Having an "OH SHI-" counter helpful.

Interesting list for sure. Playing in a Japanese metagame must be awesome. Any time that BG Pox 4-1s any tournament, you know your bound for some fun.

On the contrary, I think too many people use FoW as a crutch and neglect to board it out vs something like Zoo.

There's no way it's correct for a CB deck like this to keep in FoW against Zoo - especially since he has a ton of pure gas to bring in from the sb (~9 cards?). If you play Landstill and you don't really have much to board in, combined with the fact that you actually need to enable Standstill, then sure, it's best to keep in FoW. Unlike Landstill, CB decks can't FoW things left and right because there is no draw engine (except for Jace). After sb, he still has a ton of answers to those problem cards.

[kiblast]

Wait a second.I just realized ''Hareruya'' is the pronounciation of japanese katakana transliteration for Hallelujah. Wtf store name is that? ^^

[pandaman]

I think it may be a play on words. It's the Japanese way of pronouncing "hallelujah" but I believe that it can be written in kanji and hiragana also, which would likely be "ya" meaning "store" or "shop" and "hareru" which means "to fine up" or "to become fine" when talking about weather. Or something totally different, anyone else shed some light?

Looks like a fun deck to play, and nice use of Cascade Bluffs. Might take those out of my trade folder... keep updating if you make changes!

[Top Deck]

instead of goyf why not kavu predator? it seems to have a lot more synergy with what you are doing.

[Mana Drain]

On the contrary, I think too many people use FoW as a crutch and neglect to board it out vs something like Zoo.

There's no way it's correct for a CB deck like this to keep in FoW against Zoo - especially since he has a ton of pure gas to bring in from the sb (~9 cards?). If you play Landstill and you don't really have much to board in, combined with the fact that you actually need to enable Standstill, then sure, it's best to keep in FoW. Unlike Landstill, CB decks can't FoW things left and right because there is no draw engine (except for Jace). After sb, he still has a ton of answers to those problem cards.

Without an active CB (which means your in a winning position), you can't safely drop Jace against Zoo. They run 8-12 burn spells, at least 11 creatures out of Fire range (Nacatl, Goyf, KotR), and probably sided in 3-4 Pyroblasts/REBs against us. I've found Zoo to be one of the few (if not only) matchups where Jace is too risky. Plus, he isn't doing anything for the CB curve against Zoo, and Tarmogoyf + Fire are plenty win-cons once you have CB online. At the least, side out a pair.

With 6 hard counters postboard, you're not going to stop every "major" threat that hits the table. Force comes in handy when trying to protect CB from Blasts and Blasts, in addition to stopping anything else but Grip against them. Siding out FoW against a deck with so many dangerous cards that can completely wreck you if they resolve is not correct, especially because the blue count is still high enough for FoW to be reliable. For that matter, EE is pretty good against Zoo, if just for stopping the double one-drop draws that can put you low fast. Not as useful against the big dudes or Choke, but it can still handle them.


Wait a second.I just realized ''Hareruya'' is the pronounciation of japanese katakana transliteration for Hallelujah. Wtf store name is that? ^^

This made me lol. "You raff, you rose".

[Spartacvs]

@pandaman spot on with the translation play on words, you got it!

[GGoober]

There is no bigger proponent and fan of Jace, the Baddest MotorFinger than I, but 4 doesn't look right. Two in any opener is an auto mull, even with Force. BS helps mitigate it when it happens over the course of a game, but drawing multiples before you've hit 4 mana is a major possibility (and buzzkill).

Since when did everyone start boarding out FoW against anything but Tribal? Zoo has infinity cards that you don't want to hit the board, and they're all 3 mana or less. Choke, Library, PoP, KotR, Goyf, T1 Nacatl, etc. Pyro/REBing your CS and Forbid when you don't have the Force and one of the mentioned is hitting the board at an inopportune time seems bad. I understand that card advantage is very important against Zoo, but CB isn't a low-profile deck. They have plenty of cards for you postboard, and most of them are cards you don't want to see. Having an "OH SHI-" counter helpful.

Interesting list for sure. Playing in a Japanese metagame must be awesome. Any time that BG Pox 4-1s any tournament, you know your bound for some fun.


FoW is inargubly a terrible card against various matchup. If it's nothing combo-based e.g. SnT/TES or something you cannot deal ith on turn 1 e.g. Lackey/Vial, I'll board them out. Against Zoo, I often find FoW being the weakest card. Sure they'll have Chokes/Sylvan Library where the FoW would have mattered, but you also have just as many counterbalance/Dazes against those. Basically you want to have as much resource against those decks, and argubly boarding more removal/sweeper is better than FoW since you can leave your Coutnerbalance/counterspells at non-creatures while hitting creatures with removal without losing extra cards.

In fact, against a deck like Eva, as much as you want to stop that turn 1 Bob/Thoughtseize or Hymn with FoW, FoW is quite a terrible card against them since you are helping them achieve what they want to achieve i.e. disrupt your hand even more. The only cases where I find FoW critical are against Vial.dec/Lackey/combo/SnT/Natural Order and the likes. Anything that is focused on beatdown, I usually board out 1-2 FoW for more 1-1 or x-1 spells.

Glad to see a Grove-fire list. I'm a big fan of them but stopped playing them since the combo isn't too great against UGW or GWx decks packing Goyfs and Knights. I can see how 4 Jace and 4 Countertop play in against those matchups, so the list looks decent :)

[mich]

Thanks for the report and detailed card choice explenations - I found those very helpful. I really like the deck, however I have few questions regarding your decklist - you're running counterbalance, yet not a single card with CMC=3 in your main, doesen't it make your CB underperform in matchups like junk/dark horizons or against show&tell decks?
Also 4 jace seems like an overkill, you should never have problem finding jace with your tops/ponders/brainstorms so it seems to me like 3 would be enough. I would consider going -1 jace -1 counterspell, +2 spells with CMC=3, either moving some forbids/firespouts from the sideboard or trying something new like intuition maybye? It seems like it would fit the deck really well allowing you to find missing CB/sensei lock piece or filling your graveyard with punishing fires once you have the grove online.

[Nessaja]

Is the splash for white really neccesary? You got a pretty weak manabase already. You got quite a bit of reach, don't get me wrong STP is amazing, but I'd opt for a stronger manabase.

[Oiolosse]

I agree about StP. You could test bolts in that slot and strengthen your manabase. The extra reach would be nice as well.

[Mana Drain]

When your entire removal engine fails to kill a Goyf, KotR, or any other dude with a large ass, you kinda need StP. Just sayin'.
Although there should probably be an extra Path or two for the mid-range/Zoo matchups in the board.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There's a thread in developing competitive that is called "uwrg counterbalance Intuition control" or something really close to that; I think you might want to take a look there. White belongs here, but I would drop a jace.

You are running white, why not play some number of Ghostly Prisons somewhere in the 75? That improves the aggro (read: zoo) matchup a lot, steers clear of Blasts (unlike propaganda, which isn't needed as your blue card count is solid for FoW). Swords off a lackey/counter a vial, whatev until you make it to turn 3, drop the damn thing and laugh at them after you clear their board. If you need more removal, Path is better than dropping down to 3 colors. In fact, if you were to drop a color, red would probably be the one to cut.

[Grollub]

Oh my God. I love this deck and the bonus Trinket Control list too, thank you very much.

Regarding the 4 Jaces, I was sceptical at first too and took the deck for a little testing session (with my brother as the pilot) we had a marker in one of the Jace's sleeves and he reported to never really having wished it to be anything else other than in one game where I was already getting destroyed by an(other) active Jace anyway.

"What's the best answer to losing a bomb? Play another." ;-)

The Bluffs were overall suprisingly solid, nice touch. Managed to steal a game with an early Wasteland on a dual and a Port tho (with MUD).
The only thing he wanted to change in the list, was adding a few more lands but couldn't find anything to cut for it.
- But this can probably be explained by we both want to play as many lands as possible rather than as few possible in this kind of deck (much easier to recover from manaflood than manascrew).

You're probably well aware of all this, but another pair of eyes' experience might be nice despite us having the obvious lack of experience with the deck.

[Spartacvs]

Hey all,

I'm going to be playing this list in another box tourney tomorrow but I decided to add two Trickbind to the SB(mainly to fight Engineered Explosives, but they have other applications like countering a Jace TMS Ultimate). Has anyone else ever tried this? This is all theory for me at the moment but I'll know more after the tourney tomorrow.

cheers,

Sean

[ummon]

What is the difference between this and the old "Punishing Fire Counterbalance" thread we had running around?

[GGoober]

This one doesn't win with Show and Tell or with Mishra's Factory. This is probably the best list IMO aka straightfoward list does better than cute lists although I can see it having a little problem with UGw or GWb decks packing Goyfs and Knights.

[Spartacvs]

Updated list***

I won my local tourney today without dropping a game :)

4 Jace TMS
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 SDT
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
1 Green Sun Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Cascade Bluffs

SB
1 Slagstorm
1 Forbid
2 Trinket Mage
1 Meltdown
1 Reverent Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Divert

[Kich867]

I guess I don't really understand why it's called counter-burn, it's every staple of every color it runs plus 1 burn. . . ? You can pay 3 mana to deal 1 damage to the opponent, somehow I get the feeling you win more often with Jace and Tarmogoyf. Like, what makes this different from CounterTop thopter, or countertop super friends, or countertop anything?

I get that multiple threads kind of show options, but they're all countertop decks with different win conditions, that doesn't make them completely different decks. I also don't see how running 1 burn in a counter-top deck makes it Counter-Burn (which presumably would run you know, a lot of burn and counters?).