[Deck] UGB River Rock (formerly Intuition-Thresh)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Hi all. It's been a while since I updated the Intuition-Thresh thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11638) with the promised new primer, but I'm happy to announce that it's finally here! (http://freepdfhosting.com/612dd90a55.pdf) Yay!

What follows over the next several posts is the entirety of the primer's contents (please note that due to various updates, what is below may no longer be up to date--please click on the PDF for the most recent version) (Note: I'm currently updating the primer, which is also out of date). Because of its sheer size (55 pages single-spaced), I have not taken the time to reproduce the UBB coding in these posts (the PDF still has it all). Accordingly, if you want a more easily legible version of the primer, I encourage you to access or download the PDF from the following link: http://freepdfhosting.com/612dd90a55.pdf

Anyone at all is welcome to use my primer, in part or in whole, for whatever purposes they might like--so long as I am credited where appropriate. This has taken me a monumental amount of work over the last few months (not to mention years), especially since I've been working entirely alone, and I deserve that much at least. So, let's get down to it!



UGB River Rock

© Goaswerfraiejen


First things first: A great many thanks are in order for everyone who helped to make this deck into what it is today. I won’t name you all, but you know who you are, and without people like you to pick this deck up and run with it, there’s not much a guy like me can do.

Finally, thank you for your patience: the many incarnations of this deck and its many primers have all taken a great deal of time to complete, despite the necessity of updates. I can say with certainty, however, that the quality of the primer that follows and the deck that it describes were only improved by the wait.

Also, it’s very long. For your ctrl+f convenience, here are the main headings:

1.) Deck History
2.) Decklist
3.) Deck Description
4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions
-The Manabase
-The Creatures
-The Spells
-The Sideboard
-Notable Exclusions
5.) Playing the Deck
-The Basics
-Using Intuition
-Post-Intuition
-The Element of Surprise
-Opening Hands
-Sample Hands and Analysis
-What to take away from these sample hands
-Dealing with Hate
6.) Matchup Analysis
7.) Results
-Goaswerfraiejen
-Breathweapon
-Alex Mack
-Michael Redford
-Anonymous
8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability
9.) Conclusion


1.) Deck History
We should begin by noting that Hanni has been working on a very similar deck concept since 2006 under the name of Aggro Dredge-A-Tog (DAT). Back then, he ran Wild Mongrel rather than Tarmogoyf (since it hadn’t yet been printed); it acted as a solid deterrent (trumping Werebears, particularly if you pitched Genesis/Wonder), and worked well with the excess lands generated by Loam. Obviously, by today’s standards, Mongrel is far less interesting, although my own early attempts made adequate use of the card. Since then, however, the deck has undertaken a fundamentally different direction that makes Mongrel a little less desirable.

Hanni’s deck also contained cantrips, countermagic/discard, and, most importantly, Intuition. Loam/Coliseum and Genesis/Wonder were also present, as well as Pernicious Deed. The basic concept was an aggro-control shell like Threshold’s combined with a strong element of (board) control like Landstill. Hanni has always been a huge fan of that sort of hybridization, and he and I both agreed that, at the time, it represented the obvious evolution of the format. The deck was shelved for quite some time due to rocky piloting, lack of a following, and the development of UWb Fish. And then, all of a sudden, Tarmogoyf was printed.
Fast-forward to 2009, and the strong preponderance of decks like Natural Order Rock, Hexmage Depths, and Dreadstill--not to mention the current evolution of Threshold into counter-top control--largely validate that hypothesis. This deck was originally built to take advantage of that hybridization by internalizing many of the same principles in an attempt to exploit the weaknesses that hybridization generated in other decks, notably Threshold.

When Tarmogoyf was printed in April 2007, I quickly thought to make use of him in UGb Threshold [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534] (which was virtually nonexistent at the time), and began working on developing that concept. It quickly became apparent, however, that I was opting for a rather different direction from everyone else who was trying to develop UGb Threshold, so I created a new thread for the deck. If you want to trace the evolution of the deck, the links are available in this same section in the last thread [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11638]. From there, you’ll also be pointed to the thread before [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11638], and the one before that [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230]. I anticipate keeping the current thread for some time, and will update the decklist in the original post when time permits.

Anyway, at that point, Hanni thought to revive Aggro DAT and so he started plugging into the new thread. From there, I eventually took up sole responsibility for evolving the deck as new cards (viz. Noble Hierarch, Maelstrom Pulse, etc.) were printed, and then again following the post-Mystical Tutor-ban format shift. Once again, the deck has gone through significant developmental changes since the start of even that last thread, and so the need for a new primer has once more become pressing.

You will find, at the end of this primer, a short list of T8 performances by this deck, its previous incarnations, or decks that sufficiently resemble it or its previous incarnations. You’ll notice that these T8s are largely out of date, and that there aren’t many of them. There’s a good reason for this: the deck is expensive to build, tricky to play, and still (despite our best efforts) unknown. As far as I am aware, I am currently pretty much the only person playing it regularly, and unfortunately I have spent the last several years in cities without regular Legacy tournaments. As I begin my PhD, I’m moving to Montréal, which has a regular scene: the hope is that I will be able to start racking up more tournament experience for the deck, work permitting.

Since I myself am completely unknown in the Magic world, in the past we relied on Hanni’s “star power” to attract a few players. Unfortunately, that strategy appears to have failed: after all, both he and I lack the credibility of players like players like the Hatfields, David Gearhart, and so on. Accordingly, it has proven difficult to garner the kind of attention that I feel the deck deserves. This deck has never really taken off in serious numbers, which is upsetting. The last few years have seen a number of Intuition/Loam decks pop up, but they have tended to lack focus and development. This thread, then, hopes to prove a comprehensive resource for just such development.

Some time ago, David Gearhart designed a deck called “It’s the Fear” (ITF) [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9724]), an excellent control deck that once shared a number of similarities with (former versions of) UGB River Rock. ITF is built further down the spectrum towards control, acting more like Landstill, but still incorporates a few Threshold elements. Today, however, River Rock differs from ITF in a number of significant respects. Indeed, while ITF’s popularity seems to have waned in the face of increased metagame hybridization, River Rock seems well-placed to snatch up its mantle as the mid-range deck of choice.

Regardless, it is difficult to understand why this deck hasn’t been given much attention at all over the last few years. As a precursor to ITF, the two decks were so similar that they could have been siblings. Today, while radically different from just about anything else that might hop around the format, the deck remains lost and lonely, relegated to the sidelines: a puzzling situation. Hopefully this primer can change that a little.



2.) Decklist

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder
1 Progenitus


Spells (29)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Daze
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Faerie Macabre


Yes, that’s 61 cards. Tough luck. The disadvantages are minimal, given the amount of manipulation available, and the advantages are tremendous. Feel free to cut something, but I don’t think the deck will be any better off for it.

Here is a link to the deckstats.net entry, which also has a handy MWS/other tool to export the decklist: [http://deckstats.net/deck-1457755-65a1d6286064b8cdfb60ee91fb28735e.html] (note: Abrupt Decay is not yet included in their database. I'll update this link once it is.)


3.) Deck Description

Originally, this deck tended to play itself out much like UGb Threshold did, what with its creature and cantrip bases and its counter suite. Since that time, however, UGb Threshold has evolved significantly, and now thrives primarily by denying resources to its opponents thanks to early tempo generated by cards like Stifle, Wasteland, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, Daze, etc. The result has been an aggro-control deck that hopes to control the very first steps of the game, in an effort to render its threats unstoppable. As you can tell from the decklist above, UGB River Rock can no longer realistically masquerade as straight-up Threshold, although many similarities remain. At present, the deck looks and operates much more like a Counterspell-enabled Rock deck.

Thinking of it as The Rock is a good way to start, and helps a great deal to familiarize yourself with the deck. There are just three main areas of divergence that need to be kept in mind: 1.) A (admittedly limited) counterspell suite, 2.) The presence of Intuition as an important engine, and 3.) The Natural Order/Progenitus combo (which a few Rock decks still favour). Hence the name: River Rock (i.e. The Rock with a blue splash). Alternately, you could think of it as a (partly) tempo-based Rock deck.

When Hanni and I were developing earlier versions of the deck, we shared a common gripe against counter-top (and by no means are we saying that the counter-top lock isn’t extremely good): it usually can’t bring you back when you’re behind. As such, it leaves the deck in a reactive limbo, with minimal options against resolved threats (Swords to Plowshares, other creatures) and a deep reliance on a reactive (counterspell-based) engine. Accordingly, we opted to move towards a more pro-active solution that can bring you back from a bad position: Pernicious Deed.

Since then, however, the Legacy metagame has changed a great deal. It has become necessary, in my opinion, to go on the offensive with the Natural Order combo, while making full use of the freedom afforded by Abrupt Decay, Daze, and a critical mass of recursion.

So that’s what I have done: in a nutshell, this deck strives for versatility and redundancy: Eternal Witness, Unearth, and Volrath’s Stronghold provide a solid mid-to-late-game base of recursion that can be exploited to throw out Progenitus, or simply to overrun the opponent. Similarly, with eight sources of removal and nine counterspells (along with ways to recur them all), removal doesn’t get much more redundant in Legacy: this is a lesson that I learned from The Rock, and it has served me well so far. The idea is that with efficient threats on the board, the threat of a devastating combo, and a critical mass of removal, the deck should be able to overpower the creature-based strategies that dominate Legacy and present a significant threat to control. This was especially true for aggro-control decks like New Horizons or CounterTop, which minimized their real threat count in order to maximize their control elements. Today, the same might be said of Blade and Miracle Control decks. The downside, of course, is that against decks that don’t rely on creatures to win (e.g. combo), you have six cards that won’t do much except perhaps (if you’re lucky) slow their artifact-based mana development.

Before I say any more about the intricacies of this deck, I’d like to mention that it is possible to run Pernicious Deed rather than the Natural Order combo. This is a particularly effective strategy against Zoo, but I think that many of the same advantages can be derived from the Natural Order combo simply by reducing the need for non-Progenitus creatures to attack, thereby allowing us to focus on developing a defensive wall and setting up the combo.

With Intuition, Loam, recursion, and Natural Order, the deck can easily shift from playing an aggro/control gameplan to a control gameplan, and vice-versa. While our aggro element won’t compete with tribal decks, our ability to control the game is roughly comparable to (if not as extensive as) straight-up control decks. We have the ability keep the board clean fairly early on thanks to free removal, counterspells, and recursion. For pesky Planeswalkers, creatures (especially Tombstalker), or anything else, we have easy access to Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay or to our own bomb, Progenitus. We also have the ability to recur powerful tools to gain control over the game, which is set up (most of the time) by Intuition. Life from the Loam ensures that the deck can make land drops every turn in the mid- and late-games, and usually does so by providing card-advantage thanks to Dredge (cards in the graveyard are, in fact, recursion targets), and our ability to capitalize on the graveyard. Loam/Wasteland/Witness locks can occasionally end games (though they tend to function more as pinpoint utility tools), and Eternal Witness and Unearth are a great source of card advantage, giving the deck recurring beaters and removal (with Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder). Gigapede is an alternate win condition that can recur itself and is almost impossible to answer, although it hasn't made the cut these last couple years.

The most common Intuition pile is usually based around Life from the Loam or Eternal Witness, or acquiring a necessary element to affect the game-state (e.g. 3x of a creature, removal spell, or Natural Order, etc.). Usually, my first piles look something like Witness/Witness/Unearth, Loam/Wasteland/Fetchland, Loam/Wasteland/Stronghold, or Loam/Stronghold/Shriekmaw (or Marauder), unless I’m going for a 3x-pile. These piles set you up for the later stages of the game by increasing your mana pile, stocking your graveyard, and getting you in position to start your recursion engines. I’ll discuss Intuition piles later, but they’re obviously going to be extremely dependent on the current game state. The second Intuition that you cast, should you have the opportunity to do so (or need to), should either grab remaining toolbox cards that can be used in conjunction with recursion, such as Shriekmaw (in other words, whatever is not currently available), or the Natural Order combo.

Playing so many spells with a casting cost of three or more generally pushes this deck out of consistent Counterbalance range, at least until the late-game. Handily, Abrupt Decay destroys Counterbalance every time if it's looking dangerous. As far as Threshold variants are concerned, our removal represents a serious threat to their already meagre resources, which will already be sorely taxed dealing with our combo element.

This deck has an insane amount of internal synergy. It can mould itself to almost any situation and has the tools, between the main deck and the sideboard, to answer just about any situation. Its fast Rock-esque gameplan gives it the speed to keep up with (and disrupt) fast decks. Its slow and controlling gameplan gives it the ability to box-in and out-advantage slower aggro decks, other aggro/control decks, and even other control decks, and allows the deck to transition very smoothly from the early to the late game. This hybridization allows it to switch roles when necessary to unbalance the opponent and dominate the game.

Finally, unlike ITF, I have chosen not to splash white as a fourth colour for Swords to Plowshares because I don’t feel that bastardizing the manabase is worth it at all, especially considering that Shriekmaw (or Marauder) and Abrupt Decay are the superior (and entirely adequate) removal options for this deck.


NOTE:

Originally posted in a rulings article on MTGSalvation:
Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effects—those wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damage—also whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

I can guarantee that such situations will come up, and they can really decide the game. Even though Tarmogoyf has been in print for years, not everyone is entirely familiar with it yet.



4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions


The Manabase

With the advent of Zendikar, the fetchland options appropriate for this deck have expanded greatly. I used to run 4x Polluted Delta and 2x Windswept Heath (because Hierarch nets basic green and blue mana, and black is essential for our removal, but harder to obtain), and that configuration is excellent. The enemy fetches open up slightly more stable options, however, and so at the very least I recommend switching from Heath to Misty Rainforest. The choice between Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacombs, on the other hand, is pretty much a moot point since either option grants access to the same number of lands. Personally, I prefer guaranteed access to green (basic Forests!), and so opt for Verdant Catacombs.

Eighteen lands seems like the perfect number in testing for this deck’s curve: Loam enables the deck to consistently hit land drops after the third turn once the engines are online, and Noble Hierarch goes a long way towards providing speed and stability.

Wasteland is in here for two purposes alone: targeted assaults on recursion engines (Academy Ruins, Volrath’s Stronghold, etc.) and manlands (Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault, etc.), and for the occasional game-breaking Waste-lock. Waste-locks are (obviously) especially strong against multi-coloured decks or bad starts, but they’re hard to set up if you can’t cast Intuition early in the game.

Volrath’s Stronghold: In older versions of the deck, Stronghold complemented Genesis (the superior recursion engine, since it didn’t eat a draw). For the present deck, however, the relative safety from graveyard hate is a little more important, especially since most of the setup required for Genesis has been eliminated. Stronghold at least provides a measure of redundancy for our aggression and removal, and a measure of immunity from graveyard hate (along with ease of fetching with Intuition and Life from the Loam).


The Creatures

Tarmogoyf: This is the core aggro package and it functions the same as it would in a normal Threshold or Rock deck. It improves the early game by allowing the deck to be aggressive against some decks (like combo) and defensive against other decks (like fast aggro). Since so many other decks run Tarmogoyf, removal is an essential complement. Later on, Tarmogoyf’s low casting cost works very well with Genesis recursion.

Noble Hierarch: This little guy is your primary mana fixer, and it generates an important amount of speed for the deck, allowing you to capitalize upon your tempo boosters. Exalted makes Goyf much more threatening, especially versus other Goyfs, and its effect is not lost upon Kitchen Finks, Gigapede, or Shriekmaw. Finally, in a pinch, it can power out Natural Order on its own. Although it’s not a great beater, this drawback is miniscule given the amount of work that it does for the deck. Hierarch is truly part of the deck’s backbone.

Eternal Witness: Along with Kitchen Finks, Witness has essentially become the deck’s secondary beater. This is an odd situation, to say the least, but it makes sense given the broader context of the deck’s aims. After all, Witness provides us with important recursion, either of threats (like Tarmogoyf) or lost Natural Orders. It’s easy to pitch to Natural Order (no big loss), a half-decent threat with Exalted, and creates a nasty chain of recursion with Unearth (making it a desirable Intuition target, since you can fetch it out and recur your way to a Natural Order with Life from the Loam and cantrips). The main reason to run Witness is to increase redundancy. Speaking of which, recurring cantrips is one of the best uses to which you can put Witness, so don’t be shy to do it.

Scavenging Ooze: These slots used to be reserved for Kitchen Finks, but since its printing Ooze has simply proven far too powerful in the Legacy metagame not to include a copy. While the Finks are better overall when it comes to lifegain (given the inclusion of Natural Order and Unearth), the Ooze is a more significant threat and has more utility. I haven not tried splitting the slot with Finks, however, which might be an option. Or, you know... cutting something else for the lovely Ouphe. In any case, the Ooze is just amazing.

Progenitus: Fetchable with Natural Order, or pitchable to Force of Will. That leaves it relatively dead outside those contexts, but its raw power makes it an ideal finisher that vastly improves our win percentages.

Shriekmaw: Phenomenal removal. 2cc is the same as other typical black removal: it removes Goyfs (which is the biggest target for the removal), and (like Snuff Out) almost always powers through an opposing Counterbalance. The main reason to run at least one Shriekmaw is the ability to recur it with Stronghold, wiping out an opponent’s army step by step. This is, in fact, the main reason to run Shriekmaw. In this way, Shriekmaw can be a source of card-advantage similar to Flametongue Kavu in its heyday: for five mana, you destroy an opponent’s creature and (perhaps) get a 3/2 with evasion. The only creatures that Shriekmaw cannot answer are black and artifact creatures, and this deck seldom needs to worry much about those because it also has Maelstrom Pulse, Snuff Out (for artifacts), and Natural Order (as a proactive threat). For those made squeamish by a metagame in which Shriekmaw is less effective (e.g. one filled with Tombstalker, Progenitus, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Ichorid, and Reanimator), the best replacement is Fleshbag Marauder (bonus: Unearth recursion target). Triple black is too much to ask from the deck, so give up on Gatekeeper of Malakir. Against an aggro-heavy metagame, however, Shriekmaw’s targeting is more useful than Marauder’s sacrifice effect.


The Spells

Brainstorm: Cantrips give the deck increased consistency, whether it be early mana stabilization, digging for relevant cards (like Intuition), or fuelling the Threshold gameplan (cards in the graveyard, filtering useless cards for useful ones). They also allow us to shuffle away Progenitus if need be. There is absolutely no reason not to run them in here. Additional cantrips are unnecessary because Intuition + engines + Eternal Witness take their place. Brainstorm is worth keeping until later in the game, when you either need the draw power or need to put a Natural Order target back into your library. On that topic, it might be worth reading (if you haven’t already) A.J. Sacher’s article on using Brainstorm, “Pondering Brainstorm” [http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html]. Opening hands without Noble Hierarch are safest when they cast Ponder to find land-drops. If you must choose between Brainstorm and Ponder to feed a Force of Will, save the Ponder.

Intuition: The core of the deck outside of the Rock gameplan, Intuition enables the deck’s engines to come online, allowing the player to either pursue a more aggressive gameplan or shift into control mode. It enables consistent land drops via Loam, card-advantage via Eternal Witness and Unearth, fetches our combo finish, and so on. Essentially, it provides a quick response to just about any situation. For more on Intuition piles, please refer to the appropriate section below.

Natural Order: Sets up a combo finish for the deck that is extremely difficult to deal with (Progenitus). Very often, Natural Order acts in much the same way that Deed did (only more pro-actively, and thus better), allowing us to pull out a surprise win or to overpower a rogue deck. I'm not above using Order to fetch a Witness, which can be an extremely powerful move. ‘Nuff said, I think.

Life from the Loam: Another of the deck’s engines, albeit a secondary one. It enables consistent land drops every turn whilst creating card-advantage (since the deck uses the graveyard as a toolbox as much as anything else). The ability to recur Wasteland is nasty against some decks. There is no reason to not run Loam (as a 1-of) in a deck running Intuition. It is only needed as a 1-of in this deck because spare slots are hard to come by, and because it’s really more of a control/control-enabling option, rather than a manafixing necessity.

Force of Will: Obvious. No further comments necessary.

Daze: Since this is an aggro/control deck rather than slower control, Daze is a lot better for us than Counterspell. The deck needs the nine counterspells in order to dominate the early game, and to have a chance of competing against storm combo. With Hierarch’s inclusion in the deck, Daze becomes a true tempo card, rather than an iffy potential loss of momentum. If you win your first game, however, it’s often worth considering whether Pernicious Deed might not ultimately be more helpful in the coming game than Daze. After all, your opponent will be playing around Daze, so you’d do well to keep him/her baited and off-kilter. At the moment we're down to two Daze to enable us to run four Abrupt Decay.

Abrupt Decay: This new card is incredibly useful in the context of this deck. We no longer need to be hostage to Snuff Out's life loss, which makes an important difference. There is no colour restriction, which is great, and the casting-cost restriction is not such a big deal since we also have access to Maelstrom Pulse. Most importantly, uncounterability means that it's absolutely consistent removal, and it's not limited to creatures! With Eternal Witness and our other recursion elements, Abrupt Decay is insanely powerful for us.

Maelstrom Pulse: Maelstrom Pulse fulfills a necessary niche in this deck. While essentially a (creature-) removal option, it gives us a powerful, targeted answer to Planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts, and tokens. This makes Pulse a truly versatile spell: it can act as extra removal if you need it, or as a targeted Deed. Of equal importance, however, is the fact that its versatility largely replaces Krosan Grip, and so frees up a number of slots in the sideboard.

Unearth: An important source of card advantage, especially when coupled with Eternal Witness or fetched with Intuition. Unearth complements most aspects of the deck, warranting its inclusion as a one-of. And if it should be rendered useless (e.g. by a Chalice set at one), it can just be cycled. While it might look out of place at first glance, it’s a real all-star and should not be dismissed. Remember that you can use it to reanimate a Witness and then return it to your hand with that same Witness; rinse and repeat, and you’ve just severely frustrated your opponent. Alternately, use it in conjunction with Witness to ensure that you can cast Natural Order at some point. Don’t leave home without it, but don’t go over one copy: we need the slots for other things, and don’t want to become overly reliant on the graveyard. The more ineffective our opponents’ sideboarding choices, the better.

Spell Pierce: I use this primarily to help foil combo, although it’s obviously useful elsewhere as well (Burn is a common target, as are enemy Planeswalkers).


The Sideboard

Before I begin with the sideboard, I’d like to say that this is my own personal sideboard and that ideal sideboards are going to differ based on the player and the metagame. There are no fixed slots here.

One option that I have not yet explored, but which may well be of interest, is a transformational sideboard that would allow us to swap out the Natural Order combo in favour of something else. Just what that would be, however, I’m not sure. Any and all suggestions would be welcome.

Faerie Macabre: Faerie's instant speed makes it a powerful resource. Relic of Progenitus would be a better overall control element, but it also messes with our own strategy and is more vulnerable to our own Chalices of the Void, opposing Chalices (especially versus Aggro-Loam and Lands), and to Counterbalance (in ITF, Threshold, CounterTop, and other Counterbalance-based randomness). These cards do everything that you might expect them to do, and play well with Eternal Witness and Volrath's Stronghold (and thus also with Intuition). Coupled with Grafdigger's Cage, it's plenty.

Grafdigger's Cage: Another excellent tool against graveyard-based decks that has a minimal effect on our own deck (obviously, it doesn't complement Natural Order, but that's it). If you don't have the card or don't want to run it, I'd recommend more Faerie Macabre and perhaps Tormod's Crypt.

Chalice of the Void: I decided to dedicate this slot to hating out combo, and Chalice is a multi-purpose tool that cleaves tight to the tempo theme and hurts combo, all while shoring up the Burn and Zoo matchups. Tension with the Hydroblast/BEB slots in these matchups have left me favouring Chalice over them simply due to a wider range of application. It also shuts down red-splash Tempo-Thresh.

Pernicious Deed: In this deck, Deed’s power level is increased with the inclusion of Volrath’s Stronghold, Eternal Witness, and Unearth, which grant you sickening inevitability. Pernicious Deed itself is easily one of the strongest cards in the format: that much goes without saying. As mentioned before, it can easily bring the game back from behind, particularly in conjunction with recursion. The ability to answer basically everything after it’s already resolved (proactively rather than reactively—counterspells are great, but you have to have them in your hand at the appropriate time, making them much more conditional) is nutty, and the ability to come back from behind by wiping the board clear is very powerful. The fact that this deck can wipe the board clean with Deed and then recur creatures immediately makes for amazing synergy, and terrifying inevitability.


Notable Exclusions:

Academy Ruins: Too cutesy and win-more. Mana issues also make it a prohibitive choice.

Lonely Sandbar/cycling lands: Not useful enough. Besides which, they create mana problems. If you were to run Terravore, you might want a few—but again, they create havoc with the mana in your opening hand(s). If I wanted to mimic their use, I’d rather go with Cephalid Coliseum.

Counterbalance: Different gameplan altogether.

Dark Confidant: It’s a virtually useless beater, and we already have good sources of card advantage. Plus, with mana costs ranging from three to ten, on top of Snuff Out, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, and given fetchlands, the life loss would just be too significant.

Darkblast: A fantastic card that preys on NO RUG’s weenie base (as well as Memnite/Pest Affinity and many others). For my local meta, I sometimes sideboard two of these puppies, and they’re fantastic. One day I might find room for a singleton in the main deck.

Diabolic Edict: I once dedicated three sideboard slots to another form of combo-hate: hating out the Progenitus and Hexmage combos, which can be difficult to deal with. There was an added advantage in that Edict could come in to replace Snuff Out against decks with primarily black threats. Accordingly, Edict’s wide range of application warranted its inclusion, the only hiccup being that it has a harder time dodging Counterbalance and Spell Snare. Now that I run the Progenitus combo myself, however, I think that these slots are best used for other cards.

Dryad Arbor: I’m not against having a singleton maindeck, but the trouble I’ve had with it in the past is that it screws up my mana development more often than I wish I could fetch it with a fetchland.

Empyrial Archangel: Metagame considerations might warrant its inclusion in the sideboard, but at the moment I don't see the need for it.

Engineered Explosives: Complements Deed and can be used to destroy Planeswalkers (with Hierarch) if need be. It’s also slightly faster than Deed, especially against Zoo, which is helpful. And hey, Tarmogoyfs are bigger because of it. Currently, I’m sticking to Deed (in the SB) because its value against Affinity is just so hard to overstate.

Engineered Plague: A year ago, with the growing popularity of tribal decks (Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, Combo-Elves, Progenitus-Elves, Survival-Elves), Plague was a good sideboard card. We could cast it on turn two thanks to Noble Hierarch, and that was a huge boon. A single Plague won’t solve all of your tribal problems, however, since all of the above decks still play a large number of lords, but it makes your removal that much more effective. Target lords with Snuff Out and Pulse, and the opponent is left with a large number of dead cards in his or her hand, as well as in the deck, waiting to be drawn. I no longer run it simply because the shifting format seems to favour Deed and EE at the moment, and because the Natural Order combo helps to give me a little less to worry about.

Gatekeeper of Malakir: Triple-black makes this too difficult to play in this deck. Also, the fact that it doesn’t sacrifice itself makes it very difficult to recur. If you’re looking for a sacrificing-type of recurrable removal, use Fleshbag Marauder instead.

Genesis: The core recursion card used by former versions of the deck. Once in the graveyard, it provides card-advantage every turn and allows the deck to do nasty things. It makes Deed that much stronger and the board advantage that it creates after just several turns is huge. Genesis recursion is extremely hard for many decks to answer game one. In this deck, I feel that the card advantage (and ability to hardcast it past a Counterbalance) combine to make Genesis a superior option (for us) to Volrath’s Stronghold. I no longer run it because I’ve dismantled its enablers in order to run the Natural Order combo, which has a bigger impact in most contemporary matchups.

Gigapede: This guy acts as a finisher in the same way that Mystic Enforcer (or Tombstalker) did in Threshold, but is only needed as a one-of because of Intuition. Gigapede is nearly impossible to answer, and therein lies its value: it recurs itself, can be used to discard Genesis or Wonder, is untargetable, cannot be blown up by EE (unless the opponent has access to all 5 colours), is really high up for Deed and Counterbalance range, and is large at 6/1 (usually trades with Goyfs). Yes, it can be chump-blocked by Mogg Fanatic--that criticism has been made before, but is, in fact, irrelevant. Fanatic is, at best, a one-turn solution, not really any better than throwing another body in front of Gigapede. With exalted or Wonder, the point becomes even less relevant. Barring a large number of chump blockers, Gigapede’s recursion means that it will eventually punch through. Gigapede almost always powers through Counterbalance (Force of Will and Shriekmaw are the only 5cc cards that I can think of that might see play in decks with Counterbalance), and these characteristics combine to make it strong against other control decks as well. Gigapede is an all-star, and there is truly no good reason not to run it—except that there’s no longer any room, and Natural Order is a more useful toolset now than Gigapede. *sniff*

Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast significantly improves the Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Burn, and Zoo matchups, and that is a bonus that can’t be ignored. The fact that it doubles as removal means that you can load up on creature removal post-board, and yet still have the ability to consistently counter non-creature threats. The ability to also hit decks like TES and Belcher is just an additional bonus. I split the three slots between the two just to avoid traps generated by cards like Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy. I no longer run it because it conflicts directly with Chalice of the Void (i.e. it comes in for most of the same matches), and Chalice is simply more useful and more versatile.

Kitchen Finks: After a great deal of testing, I have decided that Finks is one of the best options for the secondary beater’s slot, and a fantastic replacement for Scavenging Ooze if necessary. It’s an excellent threat--especially when exalted--and its persistence makes it difficult to deal with and an excellent complement to Natural Order. The life-gain is likewise of importance since it helps to negate the reach of burn spells. I am actually happier dropping Kitchen Finks on turn two (with Hierarch) than I am with playing Tarmogoyf on turn two, since Finks swings for more initially, regenerates itself once, and generates a significant early gap in life totals. In this way, the Finks usually eat a removal spell that would otherwise be directed at Tarmogoyf. Indeed, the primary reason to run Finks is precisely the significant impact that it has on the board if you can pop it out in the early game. Should you lack Kitchen Finks or prefer not to run them, I believe that the best replacements would be River Boa or Golgari Brownscale, although both have their downsides.

Krosan Grip: Like Thrun, this is very helpful in some metagames. While it didn’t make the cut for the more generic sideboard above, that’s not a reason not to run it in your own metagame. At the moment, however, Abrupt Decay's presence makes it much less necessary.

Psychatog: Great card in older versions of the deck, but the other creatures in here are already threatening enough on their own. Besides which, Psychatog requires a large commitment to swing for the win: swinging for a piddly one doesn’t cut it. This would set us up for a truly devastating 2 (or more)-for-1. Besides, it lacks synergy with Tarmogoyf, [Gigapede, Genesis,] and Stronghold, and creates a vulnerability with respect to graveyard hate that doesn’t currently exist.

Raven’s Crime: Raven’s Crime was once in the deck largely because it makes for a strong Intuition pile against control (Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime), and because it’s a stronger disruption option than Thoughtseize in the late game (in large part due to its recursion). Unfortunately, Loam/Crime locks are too slow and useless against today’s control decks, which feature Jace, The Mind Sculptor and other Planeswalkers all too prominently.

Snuff Out: Easily black’s best removal spell, Snuff Out deals handily with almost anything and is as close to Counterbalance-proof as you will ever get. Its alternate cost, while steep, is worth it, since it guarantees a gigantic tempo boost for the deck. There is nothing quite like tapping out to cast your beaters, and then springing a nasty surprise on your opponent. The printing of Abrupt Decay renders Snuff Out obsolete in this context, however.

Terravore: A great card, I’ve often thought that it could find a home as the deck’s secondary threat. Indeed, it’s quite good in that role--except that it’s extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate (which is currently largely ineffective against the deck), and the other creatures are too important to cut. It's still very tempting to include a singleton.

Thoughtseize: Thoughtseize is extremely strong at what it does. 1cc proactive spot removal for any non-land card is obviously extremely efficient: it answers anything problematic from Tarmogoyf to Humility. The ability to see the opponent’s hand is invaluable, especially in a large tournament setting. The -2 life loss, however, was sufficient to deter me from its use in earlier versions, which already lost a lot of life to fetches, FoW, and Snuff Out. Today, I think that Thoughtseize doesn't quite complement the way the deck strives to spend its first few turns (namely, ramping into Natural Order), although it would certainly offer added protection. I may well return to it in the sideboard, however, given how hard a time I have with Show and Tell. There, proactive disruption would probably be more useful than our reactive disruption. On that note, Cabal Therapy is also worth remembering.

, and to opt instead for a strong beater with more synergy with the rest of the deck (Kitchen Finks, which then became Scavenging Ooze). When coupled with the life lost from fetches, FoW, and Snuff Out, Thoughtseize leaves you very little room to manoeuvre. If you’re planning on running it, run a maximum of three and use Raven’s Crime to fill out the fourth, since Thoughtseize is more or less useless in the late-game. Better yet, run Cabal Therapy and Raven’s Crime.

Thrun, the Last Troll: There’s no room for it in the deck’s current configuration.

Tombstalker: This is one of the most controversial absences in my deck, especially given Breathweapon’s recent(ish) success with a list that included it. It might be worth running a few of these, but the creatures are threatening enough as is. Casting Tombstalker is going to be relatively difficult, considering that we don’t run nearly as much tempo or as many cantrips as Team America [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605]. For the moment and from my (admittedly minimal) testing, Team America puts Tombstalker to better use: it gets it out faster, allowing it to have a much greater impact on the board, and its shell makes it much more difficult to neutralise. Besides, now we have Progenitus and Empyrial Archangel.

Wonder: Gives the deck flying, which can be invaluable in many matchups (notably against control). Wonder easily breaks things like Goyf stalemates, and gets Gigapede over chump-blockers like Mogg Fanatic. Better yet, it gives you a means of playing around Humility and Moat, a means of answering decks that play a large number of flying creatures (which are otherwise unblockable). Without any free slots, however, I can’t find a way to include it any longer. Poopsicles!

Worm Harvest: This card is primarily a foil against Humility, which can otherwise prove slightly troublesome. Metagame considerations might warrant its inclusion in the sideboard, especially against Miracle control decks.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

5.) Playing the deck:

The Basics

The deck is not a difficult one to pick up if you’re familiar with the format, especially with The Rock or Threshold. Generally, the early game should be devoted to developing your board position and mana situation, using cantrips to set yourself up (but try to delay Brainstorm if possible—see above). If your hand is more controlling, however, there is no problem going that route early on before switching gears. But let’s begin at the beginning.

The deck’s main difference from traditional Threshold variants stems from its late-game plan, and its use of the graveyard; it differs from The Rock because it opts to base its control package around Force of Will and Intuition, while relying on cantrips, Intuition, and Loam for its draw engine rather than relying on disruption and Sensei’s Divining Top. Current builds of Threshold attempt to control the late-game through permission-tactics (the Counterbalance-lock) and card-advantage from Sensei’s Divining Top. This element is noticeably lacking in River Rock: instead, we attempt to use faster card-advantage engines (I’m referring here to Loam and Intuition) in order to better manipulate our resources (particularly the graveyard) and force a win through sheer inevitability.

Countering everything your opponent casts is conceivable (in Legacy, not this deck), and clearly it works well (see Threshold’s success, as well as ITF’s); this is a reactive control plan, however. River Rock, on the other hand, attempts to force the opponent into the reactive role by applying unrelenting pressure through recursion and a pro-active combo (i.e. Natural Order + creature). Due to a relatively high curve, the deck succeeds in evading opposing Counterbalances, and thus can use the same gameplan in such situations. Why sit back and look for threats that are few and far between when you could just keep casting threats over and over again each turn? Such is the deck’s attitude towards the game.



Using Intuition

Once you have the ability to cast Intuition, the game changes tone fundamentally. Until you get an Intuition, you can be content to play Threshold- or Rock-style and run your more frequent threats into your opponent aggro-style. Once you can cast Intuition, however, it becomes necessary for you to address the game-state past, present, and future: what deck is your opponent playing, how are his or her next few turns likely to play out, and what can you grab to overwhelm him or her now while setting yourself up for a strong control position should something go wrong/death not come as quickly as it’s desired? These are the sorts of assessments that need to be made. This means that your Intuition piles are going to be very fluid, and there’s no formulaic pile that I can give you that you can apply without regard for the game state.

My first pile will often be 3x Natural Order, if I think that I can pull off the combo. If that’s not possible, however, my first pile will often involve Life from the Loam. For example, it might look like Loam/Witness/Stronghold. This is a strong first pile, since it’s useful at almost any stage of the game, and because it guarantees that I will get what I want eventually. What should be noted so that you can tailor your own Intuition piles is how it fulfills a number of different roles:

1.) It sets up your mid- and late-games by giving Stronghold-based recursion and card-advantage, as well as the ability to (essentially) draw three a turn when necessary (because dredging feeds Stronghold and Witness, and increases your likelihood of running into Wasteland—see point 4).
2.) Defensively, it helps to protect you from attacks on your manabase (thanks to Loam, obviously).
3.) You can immediately begin recurring your creatures (the Eternal Witness that didn’t go to your hand or a dead Hierarch, for example, or a countered Tarmogoyf, or—even better—Kitchen Finks, netting you 2-4 more life), thus forcing your opponent into a reactive backpedal in an attempt to deal with the renewed onslaught.
4.) You gain the ability to dredge Loam early on, thus filling your graveyard with the toolbox answers and threats you’ll be needing.
5.) You get what you need to get no matter which card your opponent selects. This is even more evident with other Intuition piles, such as Witness/Witness/Unearth.

The most important thing about this kind of pile—obviously—is that you get what you want and need regardless of what the opponent chooses. Other such piles might include Witness/Witness/Card X, Witness/Witness/Unearth (one of my favourite and most frequently used piles), Witness/Shriekmaw/Stronghold, Loam/Stronghold/Shriekmaw, Witness/Wasteland/Unearth, three of a card, etc. You generally want to grab piles with (at worst) a next-turn return of some sort, preferably one whose effect will prove cumulatively beneficial over the course of the game.

With one Unearth, our Intuition options become still more diversified, allowing us to fetch creatures without reducing our chances of drawing them later by too much. With Eternal Witness, Unearth guarantees you access to what you need even if your library is starting to look quite thin. Indeed, one of the best Intuition piles is, surprisingly, Witness/Witness/Unearth for the simple reason that it’s very hard to compete with a deck that gets two creatures (wimpy as they are) and another card (perhaps Unearth again, or Natural Order) in a single turn. If you return Unearth, then you’ve essentially got an infinite supply of blockers with which to stall, until such a time as you need to recur a card other than Unearth.

Finally, there’s the brute force approach (often my initial choice, as mentioned earlier): fetch out three copies of Natural Order, and cast it for Progenitus on the next turn. This approach obviously works best if you aren’t facing a deck with counterspells, and will usually win you the game, even if you had no business winning it otherwise. The beauty of it all is that you can reliably cast Natural Order by your third turn, thanks to Noble Hierarch.

In any case, the point here is that your Intuition piles are a function of what’s in the deck, what you need right away, and what you’re going to need in the longer run. The reality is that there can be no standard pile that we can tell you to grab, because what’s in your hand and the game state are going to generate too many unique situations to account for. Generally, however, it’s safe to say that your first pile will (usually) want to set up either an Eternal Witness chain, Life from the Loam recursion, or simply fetch out Natural Order. The path to victory is entirely up to you, and the peculiarities of the situation in which you find yourself. On the plus-side, this is where your play skill will shine through. On the downside, this is where your play skill comes into play.


Post-Intuition

From there on in, playing the deck should be fairly self-evident; clear the board with recurring removal, beat down with large and quasi-invincible critters, etc. In the late-game you gain graveyard card-advantage (that is to say, you gain recursion options, both creature and other) by dredging Loam, all while maintaining your draws or filtering your deck. This generates massive card-advantage, and is usually more than enough to get what you need.


The Element of Surprise

One of the biggest advantages of playing a hybrid deck is that you can masquerade as one of the hybridized decks until it suits you to do otherwise. A couple years ago, the deck could easily masquerade as Threshold, which was a huge advantage, since it committed the opponent to bad blocks since he or she would assume that you had no recursion. Today, it’s easiest to masquerade as a Rock deck or Bant, especially if you open with Noble Hierarch. The idea is the same as in the Threshold scenario of yore: trick your opponent into wasting reactive resources. Because your resources are essentially unlimited, you can afford to bait counterspells or removal. You can generate massive card-advantage in this way, since it will take some time for your opponent to catch on. The downside, of course, is that many Rock lists are close enough in concept that your opponent will be wary of Progenitus (even though Progenitus-Rock decks have not been a huge success): consequently, use your blue splash to its full effect, and cantrip and counter your way to tempo advantage and victory.

Usually, this element of surprise will wear off in time to allow your opponent to plan properly for the second game. Keep this in mind, and try to keep your opponent off-balance; don’t go for win-more options. For example, if you can, keep Natural Order back in game one (if it’s just a win-more card) so that it can come out as a panic-inducing surprise in the second. You probably can’t keep FoW or Daze back in game one, but you can definitely hold on to them until you can maximise its effect on your opponent—better yet, you can side Daze out for the second game, since your opponent will now be playing around it (thus effectively giving you a 63-card deck with none of the disadvantages). Use the element of surprise to your advantage!


Opening Hands

This deck is fairly mana-hungry, and so you will generally want to keep hands with at least two lands. Whatever else ends up in your hand isn’t all that important, since you have a number of different strategies to choose from and all the tools necessary to find what you need. Slow hands are perfectly workable, although I personally prefer a hand with some early pressure (an Eternal Witness, a Tarmogoyf or two, or a hand that can work up to a quick Natural Order). One-land hands can be kept when accompanied by Hierarch (but it’s not ideal). Although you could keep a one-land hand with Brainstorm, I generally opt to mulligan unless I know what I’m playing against, and know that frequent land destruction is unlikely. I just wouldn’t advise risking it unless you’ve already mulliganed a few times. Speaking of which, the deck has enough gas that bad mulligans are not necessarily crippling. Thanks to Brainstorm and Intuition, a mulligan to four can be overcome if need be. To be fair, however, mulliganing to four is always just a question of luck. While it’s still possible to win, it’s markedly more difficult.

Land-light hands should aim to keep a fetchland ready to crack after Brainstorm, so that you can (hopefully) shuffle into lands, which can be crucial to prevent mana difficulties. Likewise, if playing against an unknown deck, it’s often safer to just fetch a basic land first, and then nab some sort of dual land to complement it (e.x. fetch a Forest, then an Underground Sea). Forests are obviously most important early on; Islands lose their importance as the game goes on, while Swamps gain in value since your control elements are primarily based upon them. Always cast Noble Hierarch before a cantrip (as an opening move, that is) since Hierarch grants you a measure of manabase stability and safety, and powers out back-breakingly early bombs.


Sample Hands and Analysis

Before I start with the sample hands, a quick note on the process used to obtain them is necessary. First, although I test with Magic Workstation (which brings with it the attending problems surrounding algorithm-based shuffling), I’ve used physical cards to generate these hands (although I shuffle poorly, at least it’s properly random). To minimize any advantage I might get, I’ve assumed that I’m playing second but do so without drawing that first card—sort of a mashup of the two possibilities that leaves me at a small disadvantage, and forces me to play a little more cautiously (i.e. slowly).

Nevertheless, these hands are pretty representative (I’ve not selected specific hands, but rather just written down everything I got each time I drew a hand) and certainly suffice for this exercise, whose sole point is to demonstrate how certain opening situations play out, when to mulligan, etc. I am using my (Goaswerfraiejen’s) last version of the deck; that means that Kitchen Finks and Snuff Out were still part of the list (rather than Scavenging Ooze and Abrupt Decay); the change is not significant enough to warrant me re-writing this whole section. Also, please note that this section is meant primarily to help to familiarize players currently unfamiliar with the deck, format, Magic in general, etc. with this particular deck’s early workings. That means that I probably won’t be saying anything particularly insightful for the rest of you.


Hand 1: Tarmogoyf, Noble Hierarch, Wasteland, Verdant Catacombs, Snuff Out, Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf

Verdict: Fantastic. I’d keep the hand: it has everything you need to start with, even if I might like an extra land.

Turn 1: Assuming that I play second, I crack the Catacombs for a basic Forest (Hierarch gives me access to blue for later, and I don’t yet know the odds that my opponent will have Wasteland) and play Noble Hierarch.

Turn 2: Draw Life from the Loam. You have a choice here. Depending on what’s in play, the best move is likely to be to play Wasteland, crack it, and then cast Life from the Loam to get it and the Catacombs back. Alternately, of course, you could just Loam back the Catacombs and attack, or cast Tarmogoyf. Let’s go with the first option, since it’s the safest and more likely to screw the opponent.

Turn 3: Draw Eternal Witness. The best play here probably still involves playing Wasteland, casting Tarmogoyf, and then cracking the Wasteland if you can. Otherwise, replace Wasteland with Verdant Catacombs and crack it for a basic Swamp (to enable Snuff Out). If the former play was possible, congratulations—you’ve set up a Waste-lock. Otherwise, congratulations—you’re in control of the game’s pace and development for the time being. At this point, you have all the resources you need to keep it that way. Save Brainstorm for when you need it (i.e. when Tarmogoyf is gone, and possibly Witness too—alternately, Witness can recur it), and you should be home-free.


Hand 2: Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Swamp, Intuition, Force of Will, Kitchen Finks

Verdict: A slow hand, but the safe mana development makes it a keeper unless you know it won’t cut it against whatever your opponent is piloting (e.g. combo).

Turn 1: Rainforest fetches an Island to bluff Stifle and Daze. A Tropical Island would be ideal, but against an unknown deck I’d rather be cautious with my mana development.

Turn 2: Draw Verdant Catacombs. At this point, the mana situation is a tad excessive. Play the Forest.

Turn 3: Draw Intuition. At this point, you should know what you’re up against. If it’s not a slow-rolling deck, you’re probably grasping at straws to stay alive. No doubt you’ll have used Force of Will already. In that case, the choice is easy: crack a fetch (probably grabbing Tropical Island) to cast Kitchen Finks and pray for a decent draw. Otherwise, you’ll be faced with a neat dilemma: what to grab with Intuition. If now seems like a good time to cast Intuition, then you’ll probably want to grab something with immediate returns, like Life from the Loam/Volrath’s Stronghold/Eternal Witness or Wasteland, or Witness/Witness/Unearth, or a Natural Order pile. Let’s assume there’s time to pick the latter, and go for one more turn.

Turn 4: Draw Force of Will. Not the greatest draw for a slow hand, but fantastic for casting Natural Order: we can make the most of it. We still have an Intuition left, and it will probably want to grab removal like Snuff Out, or set up a better draw next turn (with a Witness-based pile), but saving Natural Order would be more important if it was necessary. Cast Natural Order, and grab something useful. Unfortunately, if we were facing something fairly fast, then this game doesn’t look very favourable, although Empyrial Archangel might still suffice to save us. Such is luck.


Hand 3: Bayou, Swamp, Daze, Daze, Maelstrom Pulse, Natural Order, Eternal Witness

Verdict: Not great, but good enough for me since I don’t usually feel very lucky.

Turn 1: Play the Swamp.

Turn 2: Draw Brainstorm. Blah. Play Bayou.

Turn 3: Draw Wasteland. Still not good, but you can either Waste an opponent’s land, or cast Maelstrom Pulse. Odds are, it’ll be the latter. So, let’s say we did that and bought ourselves some time.

Turn 4: Draw Verdant Catacombs. Now we’re in business! Fetch a Tropical Island, and cast Eternal Witness (grabbing the Catacombs back: now, we can cast Daze and still fetch a basic Forest). Leave Wasteland untapped to deal with the opponent if necessary (let’s say assume it wasn’t).

Turn 5: Draw Force of Will. Play Verdant Catacombs (crack for Forest), and cast Natural Order (for whatever’s more important; perhaps Archangel is necessary) with impunity. Use your Tropical Island to cast Brainstorm, revealing Tropical Island, Volrath’s Stronghold, and Tarmogoyf. At this point, you’re full of win unless you lost earlier on.


Hand 4: Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Underground Sea, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Maelstrom Pulse, Natural Order

Verdict: Good enough. Let’s go!

Turn 1: Play Underground Sea. Now, you could either cast Brainstorm at the end of your opponent’s turn, or wait a turn. Assuming there’s no pressing need (like Wasteland on your Sea), keep it for now.

Turn 2: Draw Verdant Catacombs. Play Brainstorm, drawing Mental Misstep, Island, Tarmogoyf. Put back the Island and a Catacombs. Play Misty Rainforest (so long as you’re not facing land destruction, crack it for a forest at the end of your opponent’s turn; otherwise, arrange it so that you draw the Island).

Turn 3: Draw Progenitus. Mr. Pooper’s scoopers! Play the Catacombs and then Tarmogoyf (it’s at least 2/3). At the end of your opponent’s turn, crack the Catacombs for either a Bayou or a Swamp, depending on your mana situation. Let’s assume it’s OK and grab the Bayou.

Turn 4: Draw Natural Order. If you haven’t used it yet, it’s probably a good time for the Pulse, bringing Goyf to at least 3/4. Attack with Tarmogoyf.

Turn 5: Draw Daze. If you haven’t used them yet, then your hand is chock full of counterspells: the downside is that shuffling away the lands earlier left us stuck with Natural Order (‘course, drawing Progenitus didn’t help). FWIW, the next draw is a Tropical Island; you could then Order into Witness for Brainstorm and pitch back Progenitus. Oh well. The good news is that it wasn’t an awful first five turns, so you’re probably still in the running—and your opponent might just concede after Natural Order, so long as he or she doesn’t know you’re holding Progenitus.


Hand 5: Misty Rainforest, Unearth, Life from the Loam, Tarmogoyf, Force of Will, Intuition, Snuff Out

Verdict: Fantastic hand, but the single land with nothing else makes it dangerous. Mull to 6 (incidentally, you’d have drawn the Bayou you need to make it a keeper):

Hand 5b: Misty Rainforest, Tropical Island, Noble Hierarch, Mental Misstep, Maelstrom Pulse, Natural Order.

Verdict: Good enough: early acceleration, Misstep protection, and a mid-game bomb. Keep it.

Turn 1: Play Tropical Island, cast Noble Hierarch (protect it with Misstep if necessary).

Turn 2: Draw Bayou. Play Bayou. Use Pulse if necessary, although it’s unlikely this early (especially with Misstep to negate your opponent’s first play). Let’s assume you haven’t used it quite yet. Attack for 1 with the Hierarch.

Turn 3: Draw Snuff Out. At this point, if you’re not facing counterspells, go all-in and cast Natural Order (after playing and cracking the Misty Rainforest, probably for a Forest). From there on in, it’s straightforward: Pulse and Snuff Out likely destroy your opponent’s board in a single turn and you swing for the win. But let’s assume it’s less straightforward, and you want to guard against a possible counterspell (Daze at the very least). In that case, don’t cast the Order yet. Play Misty Rainforest and crack it for a Forest, then clear the way with removal instead (let’s assume Pulse), and swing for 1 with Hierarch.

Turn 4: Draw Tarmogoyf. We’re in business! Snuff Out can be used now (bringing you to 13 life), in part to bait a counterspell, and in part to ensure that you won’t be in too bad a place as a result of a lost Natural Order or Tarmogoyf. And then you have to decide between Tarmogoyf and Natural Order. If things aren’t pressing, opt for Goyf (it should be 4/5) and we’ll go through one last turn. Otherwise, at least you can recover from a countered Order next turn: cast it and grab Progenitus. As I said, let’s assume the former for one last turn. Attack for 1 with Hierarch.

Turn 5: Draw Maelstrom Pulse. Well, it doesn’t protect Natural Order, but it does continue to clear the way. Whether you continue with Goyf or opt for Natural Order depends on the state of the game at this point, but your opponent should have a largely empty board. I would cast the Maelstrom Pulse to clear the board once more, probably baiting some form of counterspell. At any rate, we should have the upper hand (an exalted Tarmogoyf will batter down just about any creature except a huge Knight of the Reliquary—which is why we have and used our removal!), so Order isn’t quite necessary yet. Keep chipping away at the opponent’s life total and you’ll soon be in a position to cast the Order (sacrificing Hierarch, of course). If your opponent manages to remove you Goyf at any point here or above, then it becomes much more desirable to cast the Natural Order (you don’t want to be stuck with it in your hand, three mana on the board, and no green creatures, after all).


Hand 6: Island, Swamp, Tropical Island, Brainstorm, Intuition, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf

Verdict: Great. Keep it.

Turn 1: Play Island, cast Brainstorm, revealing Verdant Catacombs, Shriekmaw, Force of Will. Put back Catacombs and Shriekmaw. If you need to use Force at some point in the next few turns, pitch the other Force to it so as to keep hold of Intuition.

Turn 2: Draw Shriekmaw. Play Tropical Island. Cast Tarmogoyf (1/2 at least).

Turn 3: Draw Verdant Catacombs. Crack it for a Forest and cast Intuition (protect it with FoW if necessary) for whatever is best (either an NO pile, or a Witness/Unearth pile). Alternately, if you want to remove a creature, find a Bayou and cast Shriekmaw. Swing for at least 3.

Turn 4: Draw Bayou. Play Swamp, swing for at least 3. Cast Natural Order and protect it with FoW if you need to—or cast Witness/Unearth, whatever your Intuition pile netted you last turn.


Hand 7: Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, Kitchen Finks, Shriekmaw, Mental Misstep, Force of Will

Verdict: Pitch it back. I might try to run it if I had at least one land and it was (or I had won) G1, but that’s not the case here. Mull to

Hand 7b: Forest, Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, Daze, Force of Will, Intuition

Verdict: Sure, good enough.

Turn 1: Play the Forest, cast Noble Hierarch. If you have to protect it, do so (pitch Daze). Ah, what the hell: let’s assume your opponent used Misstep on you (since that’s the worst case scenario): Force it with Daze.

Turn 2: Draw Volrath’s Stronghold. Several options are now before you: you could cast Intuition (probably for Life from the Loam, a land with access to black, and Shriekmaw), or cast Eternal Witness and bring back the Force of Will. Let’s go the latter route, since we want Intuition to resolve and Witness can bait a counterspell. Assuming it resolves, grab Force of Will (if it doesn’t, no big deal).

Turn 3: Draw Life from the Loam. Attack for 3 with Witness. Cast Intuition, probably for Swamp, Shriekmaw, Brainstorm (or Witness, or Wasteland depending on the lands sitting across from you; for our purposes, let’s grab Brainstorm). My guess is you’ll get back the Shriekmaw, since we have no black-producing lands in play. If it’s Swamp, play it immediately; if it’s Brainstorm, don’t shy away from using Force of Will. Let’s assume it’s the Shriekmaw and play one last turn together.

Turn 4: Draw Tarmogoyf. Cast Life from the Loam, grabbing Swamp, and play it. Either play your Tarmogoyf or use the Shriekmaw on something across from you to clear the way for Witness. Let’s assume the latter, since it’s the worst case scenario for us (i.e. it makes for a slower game), and swing for 3 with Witness. You’ll obviously want to cast Tarmogoyf next turn; I’d also advise dredging Life from the Loam to build up the mana to start using Stronghold regularly. Oh, what the hell: one last turn together.

Turn 5: Dredge away Snuff Out, Wasteland, Unearth. Woohoo! Cast Lifef rom the Loam, grab Wasteland. Play Wasteland. Cast Tarmogoyf (keeping Wasteland untapped). Assuming it goes un-Dazed, you must now choose whether to pop Wasteland or keep it in play. If you can’t force your opponent to rely on topdecking lands after another turn with Wasteland, then you may as well keep it so that you can start using Stronghold. Attack for 3 with Witness (next turn, you can put Shriekmaw on top of your library during your upkeep if you’d like to use it; otherwise, try waiting a bit in the hopes of having some means of casting Force of Will).


What to take away from these sample hands

The sample hands above certainly have their limitations. Still, there are a few things that can be taken away from these scenarios. First of all, hands with only one land are seldom worth keeping, unless you’ve mulliganed into them or are capable of casting at least one Hierarch (preferably two!), or Ponder (Brainstorm can work, but it’s way riskier unless you’ve mulliganed to four or so, and thus have no choice). Two-land hands are usually perfectly workable, and three-land hands (or two lands and a Hierarch) tend to be ideal since those first three land drops are the most important for the deck.

Often, chance will give you hands that are perfectly decent, but rather lacking as far as aggression (or control) goes. This is perfectly fine, and entirely workable: you just have to realise which role you’ve been forced into and play accordingly, using Intuition and your other tools to balance out whichever role is deficient.

Your first two or three turns will generally all play out very similarly; it’s really only once Intuition comes into play that things open up for you. This is especially useful for tricking the opponent into thinking you’re playing a bad or slow version of The Rock or Bant, forcing him or her into bad plays. It’s always best to lead with Hierarch. Everyone in this format is accustomed to seeing Tarmogoyf come out on turn two, and so their method of playing usually anticipates that: they keep blue open for Spell Snare, white for Swords to Plowshares, etc. Consequently, it's frequently beneficial to lead with a non-Goyf creature or spell once Hierarch is online (e.g. Witness or Ooze, or Natural Order).

On that note, I want to point out one more thing. Although this is not a situation that happens frequently (it didn’t happen at all in the sample hands above, for example), it does occur often enough to be worth highlighting: a hand with access to Tropical Island, a Noble Hierarch, and a Daze is just like holding a Time Walk. If you’re also holding a Tarmogoyf or Eternal Witness, it’s very close to holding two Time Walks. After all, you begin by playing Hierarch (which should be mostly immune to removal, thanks to Daze--who is going to waste a Force of Will AND a precious removal spell on a mere Hierarch?), and can then counter your opponent’s first play. Usually, that’s not worth it, so you save the Daze, cast your beater, and counter what comes next (Tarmogoyf, probably). If your opponent is playing a blue deck, this will usually prompt him or her to use his or her own Force of Will—or worse, Daze—in riposte. This eats away at the opponent’s hand and/or mana development, while leaving yours untouched. Slowed down by a turn and a card or three, your opponent suddenly has a hell of a time finding answers to your own threats and control elements. While obvious, I just wanted to highlight the importance of hands like these: never let them go to waste!


Dealing with Hate

The most common form of hate that you will see boarded in against you is graveyard hate (Usually Tormod’s Crypt or Relic of Progenitus, sometimes Extirpate, Jotun Grunt, or Leyline of the Void). This is good news because graveyard hate does not really do anything to hate out River Rock: it didn’t do much to previous versions of the deck, and it does even less now. Although graveyard hate means losing access to some few resources once they’re removed (Witness and Unearth are slightly less effective), this sort of “hate” does nothing to affect our regular gameplay, because it doesn’t affect either our aggro package or our control suite. All it does is remove a late-game toolbox, and even then, it doesn’t do it all that well.

Let’s be frank: losing sources of card advantage is never desirable. Nevertheless, the deck possesses a number of alternatives. The most obvious of these is the presence of Volrath’s Stronghold: Stronghold is virtually unaffected by graveyard hate. Likewise, Eternal Witness only needs to return a single creature (or other card) to be worth its weight in gold (well, more than that). Scavenging Ooze can work around graveyard hate and still has access to your opponent's graveyard. Losing Life from the Loam is largely irrelevant, since it’s only a minor component of the deck--unless you’re facing consistent attacks on your manabase, in which case you were probably in for a rough ride to begin with.

Because of these synergies, you never really have to worry about losing your graveyard to hate. Husband your resources, and make use of alternatives: don’t overcommit unless you need to just to stay in the game. If you’re going to lose resources to hate, try to work around it by forcing your opponent either to waste his/her hate at inopportune times, or to let you recur something.

Of the cards mentioned above, Relic of Progenitus is the most annoying simply because it removes both graveyards, thereby neutering Tarmogoyf a tad. The easiest way around problems that this might cause is to keep Tarmogoyf back as a defender and keep either an Intuition or a Abrupt Decay in hand, since these two cards can grow Tarmogoyf quickly after a Relic activation. This, in turn, sets you up to change the course of the game with your block(s). This is especially potent against Merfolk: your opponent thinks you’re locked down after the Relic activation, because Tarmogoyf is so small now. Accordingly, he or she attacks, often with at least one lord. In this sort of scenario, Abrupt Decay usually allows you to take out two lords: the one that hung back (often Lord of Atlantis, which grants Islandwalk), and the one that’s attacking. All of a sudden, what seemed like a devastating attack has backfired royally: the merfolk can all be blocked now, and they’ve all shrunk by two points.
.
Much more significant is the hate that aims to dismantle your manabase. Sure, you have Life from the Loam to help with that, but let’s be realistic: it’s just one card, and not nearly enough to save you from sustained attacks unless you can bring it online relatively early on. ITF players claim that a single Loam, backed by Intuition, is sufficient protection for a four-colour manabase; accordingly, we might think it an ample safety measure for a three-colour manabase backed by Noble Hierarch. I will be honest, however: I have played (literally) thousands of games with this deck over last few years, and I don’t think that argument treads water. Loam helps a great deal, and you can often use it to recover from a bad situation. You cannot, however, count on that happening with any real consistency. The fact is that decks that can maintain a sustained assault on your manabase are usually capable of blocking your attempts to use Loam to recover (by countering Intuition, using graveyard hate to remove it, forcing land sacrifices every turn, etc.). The real solution to manabase hate is Noble Hierarch: that’s a large part of why it’s such a crucial first-turn play. Usually, it’s not worth it for your opponent to waste a counterspell or removal spell on Hierarch, but that Hierarch makes a world of difference for us.

The solution to this problem, then, is fairly simple: caution. We need to fetch basics early on, and protect our early mana development, since it’s most vulnerable in the early game. Use counterspells to stop Stifle from affecting your land drops, and play around Wasteland. Make use of Noble Hierarch’s mana-fixing, especially when deciding what to fetch. I’ll repeat it once more: green is your most important colour, followed by black and then blue. The deck can survive on three mana sources for quite some time, so focus on developing your board position. If your opponent is spending time on your mana sources (but two or three are relatively safe), then go for the jugular and hit for as many points of damage as you can. If your opponent’s development wasn’t stalled by the attack on your manabase, then invest heavily in your tempo cards. The deck’s manabase is considerably stronger than it was in past incarnations (largely thanks to Hierarch), and this means that we have a good chance of surviving these types of attacks. Pox-based MBC is the toughest to deal with, simply because it complements that sustained assault on your lands with enough removal to neuter Hierarch.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

6.) Matchup Analysis

Goblins [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5557]:
As always, this is a difficult matchup simply because it takes very little for Goblins to get going, and because so much depends on your opening hand. Ideally, you want to keep a hand that has a castable Hierarch and removal or FoW/Daze (if you’re on the draw). Everything in the first game hinges upon whether or not your opponent casts a first-turn Lackey, and whether or not you can stop it if he or she can. If Lackey connects, you can still survive with Tarmogoyf/Ooze and Abrupt Decay, but that becomes markedly more difficult. Ideally, you want to cast early Witnesses (the Unearth chain is particularly useful in this matchup). That’s almost always the case regardless of the matchup, but it’s especially important against Goblins, where an early but underpowered Tarmogoyf can easily bite the dust thanks to Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, and Warren Weirding.

Conventional wisdom holds that we should counter Aether Vial, but I’ve found it just as effective to save counterspells for hardcast creatures: you have four to five turns before Vial ramps up enough counters to become worrisome, and in that time you’re likely to draw into Maelstrom Pulse or Abrupt Decay. In the mid-game, you can turtle long enough to get a recursion engine in place or Natural Order your way into either Progenitus (if you can handle the board): this is what will win the game for you the most often. Also, remember that you must play defensively: I have a tendency to try to swing for a few extra points of damage, but doing so here will lose you the matchup without fail. Remember that Goblins’ strength lies in playing a hasty horde all at once when you’re not ready to deal with it. Accordingly, you must turtle behind Goyf (and Deed in G2) as much as possible. Be wary of Siege-Gang Commander: this matchup will eat at your life total, and SGC (and, to a lesser extent, Goblin Sharpshooter) might well do you in. Note that the Witness/Unearth combo can really shine in this matchup by recycling blockers until you can power through with Progenitus.

Post-board, take out Spell Pierce for Pernicious Deed and aim to use Deed like a turtle’s shell. With Deed, you’re sitting on roughtly 11 pieces of removal (17 with counterspells) with the possibility of recurring them, which is a ton and a half—and necessary. If you’ve got anything else that might help in your sideboard (e.g. BEB and Hydroblast, or Engineered Plague), make those substitutions as well. As I said earlier, Goblins is a difficult matchup—but that’s true for just about any deck, including Goblins itself. In testing, I tend to fare pretty well against Goblins overall (largely thanks to an early Progenitus), but that doesn’t mean that you can go into the game thinking you’ll win.


Ad Nauseam Tendrils/TES/Iggy Pop
[http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11184 /
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15028]:
With the advent of Ad Nauseam, these decks aren’t quite what they used to be. My testing against the older versions of these decks was much more extensive, but I think that in general the same sorts of considerations apply. It’s worth remembering that matchups against combo are usually just a toss-up: either you get lucky, or they do (and it’s easier for them to get lucky, since you’re always on the defensive). Avoid taking too much damage from Fetchlands, and try to have Scavenging Ooze reduce their graveyards (to block Cabal Ritual and any recurrence).

Empty the Warrens is not something that you need to worry about, given your maindeck and SB token-sweepers. Grapeshot and Tendrils of Agony are the cards to watch out for, and they’re more likely to be what your opponent reaches for anyway. A number of the principles applicable to earlier versions of these decks are still viable: for example, counter the tutor that reaches for a kill or tries to create a chain (Infernal Tutor is the main culprit, but also Burning Wish). Similarly, counter Ad Nauseam as much as possible. If it resolves, you don’t have much of a shot, barring massive luck. Try to lull your opponent into going off later in the game: the later, the better, since their life total becomes low for Ad Nauseam and yours increases from Ooze, not to mention the fact that your hand gets exponentially better as the game goes on. If you can fend off an early attack, then Loam and Wasteland can help to carry you the rest of the way on a Tarmogoyf’s back. Just don’t bet on it.

Be prepared to lose the first game: you’ll seldom win it. Your chances are better for subsequent games, but it’s really still entirely up to the hand that chance deals you. As with all combo decks, however, that’s the challenge: fending off the initial combo. Post-board, then, take out Abrupt Decay for Chalice of the Void (set at zero early on, and then situationally at one or two—one is the best setting, but you can’t always rely on having the time to cast Chalice at one). You can also bring in your graveyard hate to hamper Cabal Ritual and Ill-Gotten Gains. Try as hard as you can to counter Orim’s Chant, and cross your fingers. You’ve got all the tools to win, you just need to recognize that you’re Arnold, not the Predator.


Omniscience/Sneak & Show/Hive Mind combo
[*http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24583-Deck-Omniscience /
*http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20001-Show-and-Tell-%97-Hive-Mind /
*http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18871-DTB-Sneak-Attack]:
I don’t have any consistent ways of beating these decks yet. Our best hope currently seems to be a combination of speed and luck. Depending on the prevalence of these decks, it may just be time to re-think the sideboard in terms of a heavy disruption suite (e.g., Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Raven's Crime). Perhaps BEB or Hydroblast is of some use against previous incarnations, but Omniscience has me stumped at the moment. Guess I need to test more.


Counter-Top [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716]:
This is generally a pretty good matchup for the deck, since so many of our cards are difficult for Counterbalance to lock onto. The real stars in this matchup, however, are Noble Hierarch and Abrupt Decay. Noble Hierarch, because it speeds you up early enough in the game that you can sneak a beater under Counterbalance; Abrupt Decay because Counter-Top can't stop it, and because these decks run so few win conditions. You want to assign as much early damage as you can: your opponent will eventually be able to deal with that Tarmogoyf (or Ooze), but the aim is to have done so much damage by then that s/he cannot recover. To that end, use your counterspells as removal spells: counter creatures and planeswalkers (especially Jace!). Use Pulse to kill creatures/planeswalkers. Apply Abrupt Decay liberally. Countering an early Top can usually be well worth the investment, since the CB player will spend more time trying to patch the combo together, and won’t realize you can play around a chunk of it. Beware of a late Sower of Temptation. Intuition can grab a number of tools in this matchup: go for Wasteland if you can start locking them out of a colour. Otherwise, recursion tends to be the way to go. Their limited resources generally can’t deal with yours, once these become unlimited.

For sideboarding, I don’t generally bring anything in or out unless my opponent runs Nimble Mongoose. If that’s the case, then Pernicious Deed can be worth switching in Spell Pierce, which will be locked out by CB. You could bring in the graveyard hate but more removal is simply better, since it stresses their resources (creature-wise), which are already stressed to the max. Every once in a while, Counterbalance will manage to lock you out. The good news is that generally, you’ll still be allowed to live for a few turns--long enough to try to find a workaround. Often, I just ignore Counterbalance and keep up the pressure. Keeping Natural Order back until the second game is a fantastic strategy, if you can manage it.


Bant Aggro and NO/PRO-Bant [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant]:
These are generally pretty fun games. I’ve found that we can usually get Progenitus out before Bant can, so that’s a plus (for more on beating NO/PRO Bant, see the entry for ‘Natural Order Rock’, since the principles are the same—essentially, kill all the early creatures). The big threat here is Knight of the Reliquary, which is both BIG and can fetch Maze of Ith, Wasteland, and other problem cards. Counter or destroy it at all costs.

Post-board, Spell Pierce can be traded in for Pernicious Deed.


Tempo-Thresh [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13715]:
Whether or not this is a favourable matchup depends a great deal upon the build that you’re squaring up against. If you’re facing the red splash with Submerge rather than Clique, then our deck tends to lose more than it wins. Otherwise, it’s pretty close to even. The main problem is that Tempo-Thresh can wreak havoc with our early mana development, which really slows down our response-time. This problem is compounded when Nimble Mongoose comes down, since we don’t run it any more. Mongoose is impossible to deal with outside of blocking or Deed--our blockers are negated by burn (or, worse, bounce) spells which take them out of the picture, and Deed has trouble making it past Stifle, Wipe Away, and the counter suite.

Our removal is also a tad lacklustre (due to Mongoose), but it will power through everything else, which is awesome. Tarmogoyf won’t stick, so that’s not a solution to the problem. Scavenging Ooze helps to mitigate any spells aimed at your head but, again, those aren’t the ones to be concerned about. Ooze is great for blocking Mongoose, but vulnerable to all of the deck’s burn. I find that Intuition is often best used to lock out my opponent’s manabase, since he or she seldom has double red or double green until much later in the game. One last note: stop Submerge at all costs. It screws everything up. That also goes for Rushing River, Snapback, and Wipe Away. These are cards that really mess with our gameplan.

The upside is that your sideboard presents a serious challenge for the deck in the form of Chalice of the Void. In the past, I would just board in BEB/Hydroblast. Now, I replace Spell Pierce and Shriekmaw with Chalice of the Void, which shuts down most of your opponent’s gameplan if you can stick it early enough. It neutralizes Lightning Bolt, Spell Snare, Brainstorm, Ponder, Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, and perhaps some other odds and ends (like Red Elemental Blast—it will also force your opponent to bring in Krosan Grip or the like for the third game, so just be careful with Deed). As such, Chalice is the most important card you could board in. Best of all, a resolved Chalice means that they’ll have real trouble finding their threats, since they have so few and rely so heavily on Brainstorm and Ponder to find them. In the face of your removal, this should prove fatal. With Chalice, your chances of winning become very, very, very good; the trick is to land one early enough. Deed should come in for Maelstrom Pulse.


NO RUG [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21432-DTB-Natural-Order-RUG]:
This is a matchup in which we’re quite well favoured: we have more creatures, more (and better) removal, and more redundancy. Obviously we want to prevent the opponent from casting Natural Order, which means destroying any kind of green creature we come across, and using Intuition to grab Life from the Loam and Wasteland. Daze and Force of Will should be kept to help our own Natural Orders to resolve, if possible. Eternal Witness and Unearth are real houses in this matchup. Post-board we can bring in Pernicious Deed and Darkblast, depending on the composition of the sideboard. Darkblast is a house.


UWx Stoneblade [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control]: There’s a fair bit of variation between these decks, but generally all we need to worry about is Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Wasteland recursion (fetch basics, leave fetches uncracked). Batterskull can be annoying, but a resolved Goyf should be bigger. The fact is that our aggro package is better, our control package is better, and our combo package is better too. I have generally won by either forcing a Progenitus through the cracks, or by attacking the manabase when luck permitted. None of this is to say that this is a rollover of a matchup, however: Stoneblade has plenty of the tools necessary to beat us. The trick is to make sure they can’t all be assembled at once: apply pressure, and keep it up.


Zoo [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12624]:
Previously, this matchup tended more towards the unfavourable side of close. For this incarnation of the deck, however, Zoo is no longer such a problem: we can now beat Zoo consistently, though certainly not every time. One of the main reasons for this turnaround is the inclusion of Scavenging Ooze, which is a mid-game house (since it can evade Bolts), and the ability to buy time with Spell Pierce. Not only does Ooze help to negate some of the damage done to us by burn, it’s also more difficult to get rid of. This is a huge factor, because it means that burn spells are spent removing it instead of dealing damage to us. Plus, we no longer lose four life for Snuff Out since we now have Abrupt Decay. Maelstrom Pulse and Deed are obviously very strong spells in this matchup, and Shriekmaw recursion will seal the late game. Eternal Witness and Unearth also shine in this matchup, for obvious reasons.

For sideboarding, the strategy that I prefer is to side in Pernicious Deed for Spell Perce, and Force of Will for Chalice of the Void (set at one, it’s more effective anyway). This strategy works great because it shuts down the Zoo player’s entire deck, more or less, and you only really need to watch out for Price of Progress.


Solidarity (High Tide) [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&highlight=solidarity]:
If you’re facing the cheaper version of the deck (sans Candelabra of Tawnos and Time Spiral), then you can expect to beat it with nary a whimper: it’s its own worst enemy, after all. If, however, it’s the modernized and vastly improved (and more expensive!) version, then expect to lose unless you get lucky. Your counterspells can be pretty effective, so aim to stop the leadup to the combo, forcing your opponent to stall while you beat face as quickly as possible.

Post-board, you at least gain Chalice of the Void (take out Abrupt Decay), and so have a better chance (set Chalice at 1 to stop High Tide and the cantrips that sets Solidarity up). Unfortunately, it’s very hard to stop the new Solidarity unless your opponent screws up. Fortunately, the deck’s cost (and the rarity of the required cards) means that you’re not likely to face it often, save perhaps on MWS.


Merfolk [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8158]:
This is just one of those decks that’s always going to be a challenge. As with the Goblins matchup, we have all the tools to win, and do so fairly often (thanks again, in large part, to early appearances by Progenitus). But, like Goblins, Merfolk is quite capable of powering out far too much for us to deal with all at once. If you can get your opponent to play just one creature a turn, you will win. Otherwise, it becomes more difficult. Don’t fetch out Islands if you can help it, since that just negates your blockers. Use Abrupt Decay strategically on lords, preferably when creatures are already attacking (and preferably LoA or MotPT). That way, you set up your blockers and can completely turn the game around. Use Daze to return played Islands to your hand, even if it won’t actually counter anything. Merfolk doesn’t have much by way of counterspells, so don’t worry about them: just be wary of Cursecatcher, which will aim to slow your early game. If you let it slow you down, then it’ll tap for three or more damage later; like Standstill, break it early. Use your own counterspells against lords. Your opponent might be able to attack your manabase depending on his or her build, but it’s a limited attack so just plan accordingly. If Standstill is cast, break it ASAP.

Post-board, forget about Spell Pierce and bring in Pernicious Deed. Since Merfolk is built to crush blue decks, don’t feel too bad when you lose. The matchup is perfectly winnable (usually through Progenitus, despite Cursecatcher's curse), but not favourable.


Dragon Stompy [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7622]:
Much like combo matchups, this can go either way depending entirely on what hands you and your opponent open. If your opponent leads with a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon and you have no basics in hand, you’re in trouble. Otherwise, she or he is in trouble. Lead with a basic Forest if possible (unless you’re holding Daze or Force) and cast Noble Hierarch. These two cards will be your base for the rest of the game. As soon as you can, get black mana online so that you can use Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. Your priority here is to apply the beatdown.

Post-board, substitute 2x Natural Order and Progenitus for Pernicious Deed.


Countersliver: [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5500-[Deck]-Countersliver-(MeatHooks)&highlight=sliver]
A fair matchup pre-board, keeping Crystalline Sliver away is the deciding factor here. Being able to use removal makes it a more than fair fight, and Natural Order breaks it.

Post-board, Pernicious Deed becomes the key to the matchup: protect it. Bring it in for Maelstrom Pulse. Stall until you can blow up a chunk of the opposing army (play defensively). Then come back and crush the opponent, probably with Natural Order.


Faerie Stompy [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5467]:
I’d say we’re favoured to win, but this can be a pretty exciting match. A timely Abrupt Decay easily deals with a broken start on Faerie Stompy’s part. Similarly, a Chalice set at one will do virtually nothing to impede us. Just keep early beaters off the table, and you should be fine. Concentrate on countering and destroying creatures rather than equipment--the equipment is useless without creatures, and you can easily force FS into topdeck mode. Use recursion to bring Shriekmaw back as often as possible, and try to fetch out Loam/Wasteland early on to hate out your opponent’s manabase. FS’ biggest asset in this fight is its explosive speed early on; its greatest weakness is its tenuous creature base; Natural Order helps you in both respects, either by giving you a monstrous clock or by allowing you to fetch Witness/Ooze and recur removal or gain life.

Post-board, there are no big changes. Maybe some cantrips for a couple Deeds. Frankly, you shouldn’t be losing this round except to rotten luck.


Reanimator [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8639]:
Big, flying pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Daze and FoW, however, are—but our opponent often uses them too. If you can put something in the graveyard (with Intuition) to feed Exhume, so much the better. Scavenging Ooze can go an enormous way here, so it's worth protecting. Resolving Progenitus in the mid-game is usually feasible (since you've used up your and their counterspells earlier in the game) and game-breaking (since they can't deal with it).

Post-board, the matchup gets much better. You want to side out Abrupt Decay (it won't hit anything except Putrid Imp) and Maelstrom Pulse (Iona will shut it down) and bring in Faerie Macabre and Grafdigger's Cage. The outcome of this game now depends on you drawing into your hate (which you should, what with having so much). If you have a Faerie in hand, that’s the best scenario: you can discard it in response to Exhume to both get a beater and remove your opponent’s. If you draw into Progenitus early on, it can be worth keeping just in case your opponent uses Show and Tell.


Ichorid [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-[DTB]-Ichorid
/ http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11920]:
This is another one of those difficult matchups, although the inclusion of Scavenging Ooze helps us tremendously. If you’re playing against a particularly good player, you should have no real business winning. Against merely competent (or incompetent) players, however, you have a decent chance. The thing with this matchup is that we have a few tricks up our sleeves (Abrupt Decay, Natural Order, Shriekmaw) that can make a real difference (by removing Bridges) if they’re employed at the right time. On the other hand, the Ichorid player can opt just to beat down with Ichorid, and that’s much more difficult to deal with.

Watch out for an early Iona reanimation. Iona on green will pretty much neuter you. Other than that, save up Abrupt Decay and cast it on your own creature to remove as many Bridges from Below as you can (in response to their triggers). Save Force of Will, Spell pierce, and Daze for Dread Return or use one on a first-turn discard engine. Our aim here is to slow Ichorid down long enough to win, or to force them to draw their deck. Natural Order is great if you have time to cast it, since it removes Bridges (fetching Progenitus can work if you think you have time to win with it; usually, however, I use it to fetch Witness or Ooze). Pulse is great in this matchup, obviously. Again, watch out for Ichorids—a good player will recognize his/her vulnerability on the token front fairly early on and proceed to hit you with wave after wave of Ichorids (with its concommitant one-Bridge activation). Hopefully you’ll have a defensive screen of Tarmogoyfs kicking around in time. The fast-roll is easier for us to disrupt than the slow-roll, oddly enough.

Post-board, you want to sub out Daze, Spell Pierce, and 2x Force of Will for your graveyard hate, and Pernicious Deed. You want to keep Abrupt Decay because it can remove Bridge from Below. Between your MD hate, Faerie Macabre, and Grafdigger's Cage, you should be winning this matchup most of the time.


Burn [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7811]:
This used to be another difficult matchup, but the replacement of SNuff Out and the addition of Scaveging Ooze and Natural Order makes it a lot easier. This matchup is really easy to play, but winning depends on your draws. Waste no time attacking with creatures, and save your Forces for 3+ damage spells. Daze and Spell Pierce whatever you can, and fetch mostly basics to stave off Price of Progress (especially post-board). Your goal is to force your opponent into topdeck mode ASAP, and with as little damage to your dome as possible.

Post-board, bring in Chalice of the Void (set at one) for Maelstrom Pulse and Shriekmaw. Set your first Chalice at 1 to nerf most of your opponent’s deck (and a chunk of yours). Set a second Chalice at 2 ASAP, and you’ve probably won the game right there.


Goyf Sligh [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7458]:
A difficult but fair matchup, it’s decided either by our Natural Order or their burn. Your creatures easily outclass your opponent’s, but burn gives him/her the reach he/she needs to win. Counterspells should be aimed at the burn (particularly Fireblast and Price of Progress); try to fetch basics to nullify Price of Progress. Blow things up regularly. If you have the opportunity it can be worth attacking the manabase, although fetching Progenitus is far more consistent. Remember that Daze can save you two life in response to PoP.

Post-board, you want those Chalices of the Void (set at one) to nullify both their burn and creature drops, and you can probably forego Maelstrom Pulse and Shriekmaw for them. Deed can be useful, but I generally don't make use of it here.

Various Stax Builds [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6044]:
I tend to win this matchup more often than I lose it, but a great deal obviously depends upon your start. You want to start the game with a secure manabase: that means basic lands (Forest and Swamp first) and Noble Hierarch. You’ll want to counter Smokestack and Crucible of Worlds first and foremost. Countering Trinisphere is more conditional: early on, it’s often worth it if you have access to Daze and Force. If you have early access to Wasteland, however, you can often lock out the Stax player for a few turns under his or her own Trinisphere. A single safe fatty will win you the game, but you’ll need to hold its hand the whole way through. (Kitchen Finks truly shone here, since you could sacrifice it to Smokestack multiple times.) Similarly, if you can force through a Progenitus, it can often carry you all the way. Your ideal Intuition pile is for Witness/Witness/Unearth, since the Witnesses will protect you from Smokestack and its ilk.

Post-board, there’s not much that we can bring in. The good news is that neither can they.


Affinity [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12604]:
This matchup is very definitely in your favour, thanks in large part Natural Order and Pernicious Deed. The most difficult game is the first, because you don’t have access to a MD Deed any more; on the other hand, Natural Order makes a real difference. The only potential stumbling block is Disciple of the Vault; accordingly, counter it as often as you can. To complement this strategy, use Wasteland almost exclusively against black-producing lands. Remove Ornithopter so that it can’t carry Cranial Plating. Don’t hold back your counterspells unless you absolutely know you’ll need them next turn. Try to save Force of Will for Cranial Plating. Since Affinity’s opening hands tend to be land-light (and dependent on Springleaf Drum), sustained attacks on their manabase (including preventing Drums from entering play) can also ensure victory. You can hasten this along by tempting your opponent to pump Ravager before using Abrupt Decay. Skilled opponents will sac Ravager to itself and pump up Ornithopter a bit, so be ready to destroy a Thopter (if you haven’t already; Thopter can actually be a real threat). Alternately, use removal on the Thopters and the Witness/Unearth combo to block Ravagers until you can get Progenitus.

Post board, expect graveyard hate. It’s useless against you, so forget about it. Bring in Deed and take out Spell Pierce. If you’re running Darkblast or Krosan Grip, those are worth bringing in too: just overload on removal. Cast Deed as early as possible, and use it to wipe your opponent’s entire board. Proceed to win.


Dreadstill [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8964]:
The longer the game runs, the more favourable it becomes for you. The faster Dreadnought hits the table, the worse it is. Stifle and Trickbind are a real pain in the butt, but at least you have a few outs against Dreadnought (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and Progenitus, on top of counterspells). Force your opponent to waste counterspells protecting the initial casting of Dreadnought, and then cast your removal with impunity the next turn. Dreadstill is likely to beat you if they focus on hating out your manabase with Stifle, Trickbind, and Wasteland; adjust accordingly. Luckily, they probably won't realize that's what they should be doing. If you can play around these initial threats, you have good odds. You absolutely need to have access to black mana when Dreadnought hits, so that you can cast Abrupt Decay. This may mean holding a black land back in your hand until you need to cast Decay. If you can smash through that Dreadnouht, you will probably win: you have far more resources (not to mention threats) than your opponent.

Post-board, all you can really bring in is Deed, but it's vulnerable to Stifle. The call is yours, really. It may be worth bringing one or two in for Shriekmaw and something else, just to increase your removal density.


Landstill [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9413]:
Planeswalkers and Humility make this a very difficult matchup to win. The Witness/Witness/Unearth pile really shines here, so try to get it into play as soon as possible. Your early aggression puts you in a good position, since it will force the Landstill player to quickly use up his or her reactive resources (counterspells, Deed, etc.). As usual, you want to break Standstill as soon as possible and just get it over with. Landstill decks will usually give you a chance to cultivate your board position, so take advantage of that fact; rack up the lands and force them to commit resources to paltry threats. If you’re playing against a white splash variant, be wary of Humility--it can be a real doozie, and often turns the tide. Unless Humility hits the table, Natural Order should ultimately carry this for you. Other versions of Landstill will use Planeswalkers (Elspeth and Jace TMS, mostly). Unless you have Progenitus out and ready, they will probably do you in. Unfortunately, your best chance is still to attack the player’s life total directly and hope to resolve a Pulse. Luckily, Abrupt Decay will always resolve.

Post-board, you may as well bring in those Pernicious Deeds. Usually, while I hope to beat Landstill, I can’t expect it. Worm Harvest or Thrunn, the Last Troll would be nice tools here, depending on the metagame. They’d make a huge difference. Personally, I think I’d opt for Worm Harvest, since the game usually stabilizes with the Landstill player quite close to death (and Humility in play). Worm Harvest also helps against UGB Landstill and its many sacrifice effects, and gives us a measure of control over Miracles.

Aggro-Loam [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6793]:
Favourable. Game one, you really want to keep Devastating Dreams and Seismic Assault off the table. That used to leave the matchup a pretty even one; with Abrupt Decay, maindeck access to instant-speed enchantment hate leaves it quite favourable for us. The creatures can be matched or dealt with (priority of removal goes to those that you can’t match, like Countryside Crusher, Terravore, or Knight of the Reliquary). These games will be challenging, but it’s entirely possible to win. A good start is very important here: Aggro-Loam will spend a great deal of time dredging Life from the Loam, so use this time to develop a secure manabase with a strong threat or two, and get ready to cast Natural Order (Progenitus will win, as usual). Intuition should aim to set up recursion as soon as possible: this means either fetching out a Loam/Shriekmaw/Stronghold pile, or going for Witness/Unearth (very handy against everything; Witnesses block the fatties and recur Abrupt Decay for Terravore). Shriekmaw recursion is a valuable tool, since Aggro-Loam usually can’t cast more than one creature per turn.

Post-board, Faerie Macabre is a house (and you should aim to recur it with Witnesses). You may as well bring it in for Daze (Spell Pierce is more useful in this matchup). Pernicious Deed can also be useful, but with Decay it's not necessary.


Painter Decks [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10090
/ http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13263]:
You have all the tools necessary to win here, but your success will depend a great deal on how fast your opponent can break out the combo. You obviously want to counter or destroy Grindstone or, in the worst case scenario, destroy Painter with an activation on the stack. That's easy enough with Abrupt Decay, which is unaffected by Painter's colour-shifting shenanigans. I don’t think there’s very much that should be brought in for subsequent games. If you have an early Volrath’s Stronghold, you obviously have a better chance of survival. Progenitus buys you a turn, at least.


It’s the Fear [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9724]:
Progenitus is the path to victory here, since it evades Shackles and everything else. Most of the games that I’ve lost to ITF have been to miscalculations and underestimations of Shackles’ power: it basically means that your opponent has access to eight Tarmogoyfs, and you have none. With that said, you can counter or destroy Shackles, and dealing with opposing Tarmogoyfs alone is easy. Accordingly, you should husband your resources. Play your creatures carefully, and save Abrupt Decay for Shackles if you can. Your opponent will at first prioritize setting up a CB-Top lock; take advantage of that misplay. Your primary Intuition target here is the Loam/Wasteland/X lock, since you can easily cut your opponent off from his or her colours (Green is the priority, followed by white and possibly black).

For subsequent games, I like to play much more carefully (i.e. around Shackles/Sower of Temptation): I take out Tarmogoyf altogether in favour of a combination of graveyard hate and sweepers. To win, I rely on Witness and Ooze (usually unpumped), as well as the usual Natural Order combo.


Mono-Blue Control [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10052]:
The trick to this matchup is to force some kind of creature through the wall of counterspells. You generally have five or so turns to do this, before MUC gets its act together and starts crushing you inexorably. Fetch out basics and cast as many Hierarchs as possible, in anticipation of Back to Basics.

Post-board, there’s not usually much to do except maybe trade out Daze for Deed, since you’re not likely to be able to target their attackers, and since they have too many counterspells to make Daze particularly useful. This is a very difficult matchup, especially if you get suckered into a Back to Basics game one. Luckily, there's an Abrupt Decay for that!


Pox [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4300]:
The trouble with Pox is its dedication to wiping out all of your mana resources. The trick to this matchup is to get a creature to stick, since it can go all the way. Ideally, you want Tarmogoyf to stick so that it can make it around Tombstalker. All the sacrifice effects should leave you wary of fetching out Progenitus; it can be far more beneficial to fetch out an Ooze or Witness or even a Goyf instead. I’d say that this is a difficult but fair matchup. Unearth is quite useful, so aim to set up the Witness/Unearth combo.

Post-board, you should trade out Shriekmaw, Natural Order, and Progenitus which are essentially useless, and hope to make a Chalice stick (at 2) instead. I also bring in Faerie Macabre to stop the opponent's recursion and to stymie their ability to cast Tombstalker.


The Rock [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11737]:
There are so many variants of The Rock (including, to a certain extent, this deck) that it’s difficult to outline how to play against each of them. In general, you just have to go for the jugular. You both have very similar resources, so you have to take advantage of what you have that they don’t: counterspells and speedy engines. If you can counter Sensei’s Divining Top, so much the better. Otherwise, make ample use of Intuition and your cantrips: they’ll speed up our deck by allowing us to access our resources earlier than the Rock deck can. Intuition piles should aim either to set up recursion (Loam/Stronghold/X or Witness/Witness/Unearth) or to attack their resources (Loam/Wasteland/Stronghold).

Post-board, there’s not usually very much to bring in unless they use a measure of graveyard recursion. Deed is sometimes helpful. You both have Abrupt Decay, so your counterspells are less useful; trade Spell Pierce for Deed.


Natural Order Rock [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14373&highlight=natural+order+rock]:
As with Enchantress, there’s an obvious trick to winning this matchup, and it took me forever to learn it. As with Enchantress, failure to use that trick generally results in a game loss for us. The trick: spend all your resources getting rid of those creatures, especially the accelerators (Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Noble Hierarch, etc.). Don’t be shy about using Abrupt Decay on them: without them, Natural Order will never resolve, and that’s your goal. As a bonus, this also means that the deck won’t have enough blockers to stop your attackers. If you can spare an Intuition, grab Life from the Loam, Wasteland, and another card, and lock them out of the combo for good. On the plus side, we run the combo too!

Post-board, I don’t have any real suggestions except to say that Deed might be more useful than Spell Pierce (as above), simply because it helps you to sweep the weenies away.


43 Lands [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4020]:
When we ran Mongoose and Wonder, this ended up being favourable. Gigapede made it tolerable. Now, it’s all comes down to Progenitus. If you can last long enough to get it out, you’ve probably won the game. Focus exclusively on casting Natural Order.

Post-board, your counterspells may as well be traded out, since they’re useless. Bring in graveyard hate and Deed instead. If you have any empty slots, take a Chalice to fill it (set it at 2 to disrupt Loam). Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are sub-par in this matchup because they can't hit lands. At least they can hit the enchantments and artifacts, though.


Enchantress [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5302]:
This is a difficult matchup, but I recently discovered the secret to crushing Enchantress (yes, it took forever, but at least I got there in the end). It’s actually pretty obvious: don’t let Enchantress-spells (the Enchantresses and their Presence) stick. Counter or destroy them at all costs, and you have enough time to plow through and win. Deed is stellar in this matchup, but be wary of Replenish. Progenitus wins.

Post-board: Shriekmaw and two Pulses come out for Deed.


Random decks: You should crush most of these, thanks in large part to the Natural Order combo and, post-board, Pernicious Deed. There's not much to say except to focus on the basics.



7.) Results:

In the last few years, I have unfortunately been living in areas without any Legacy scenes, and so only had the opportunity to bring a version of this deck to one Legacy event. Although I made the top 8 (I was fifth or sixth, I don’t recall), it’s not worth mentioning because there were only ten players to begin with. Now that I have a regular Legacy scene, however, I’ve been piloting the deck with a great deal of success.

When I’m notified of a success, I’ll amend this post to reflect that. It’s also worth noting that a number of the deck’s previous incarnations have met with success (e.g. Psychatog, Intuition-Thresh); that’s unavoidable, given the deck’s long history. Also note that there are dozens of decks on deckcheck.net that closely resemble UGB River Rock, but that are classified under UGB Threshold or ITF thanks to important differences (usually Dark Confidant and Counterbalance, and a different creature package).

Although previous incarnations have had three major successes in the last three years, the lists are now sufficiently different from my current list (and those successes are so few and far between) that I don’t feel entirely comfortable placing this primer in the Established Decks section any more. Better, I think, to start back in the New & Developmental section, and hope to build a little more momentum. Should the current incarnation start placing in a few tournaments, I’ll gladly place the primer back in the Established section where it belongs (IMO!). With three T8 victories in tournaments of about 30 people, we’re getting very close to the point when I’ll be comfortable moving the thread back.


UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy October 20, 2011 (9/19)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb (I only have 1 Bayou)
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest (Lacking a Bayou)
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Darkblast


UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy September 15, 2011 (11/25)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb (I only have 1 Bayou)
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest (Lacking a Bayou)
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Crime/Punishment (I'm missing 1 Pulse)
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Darkblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel



UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy September 1, 2011 (3/22)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Darkblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel



UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy August 25, 2011 (3/22)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Darkblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel



UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy August 11, 2011 (8th/32)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel




UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy June 23, 2011 (6th/30)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel



UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy June 16, 2011 (5th/28)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel


UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy June 09, 2011 (2nd/32)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Faerie Macabre
1Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel


UGB River Rock
Goaswerfraiejen
Valet d’Coeur Weekly Legacy May 26, 2011 (6th/29)

Main Deck:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Spell Snare
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel



UGB Intuition-Loam
Szymon Mueller
Poznan Legacy League Dec. 2009 (6th/31)

Main Deck:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
1 Raven’s Crime
3 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei’s Divining Top

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod’s Crypt



UGB Intuition-Thresh
Breathweapon
Moscow 2009 (3rd)

Main Deck:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime

4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw

3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland


Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede



UGB Intuition-Thresh
Alex Mack (Mackaber)
2008 German Legacy Championship (3rd)

Main Deck:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Werebear
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw

3 Pernicious Deeds
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives



Psychatog
Michael Redford
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:

1 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground River

Sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Hail Storm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle


Gifts-TarmoTog
Japan, 2007 (9th)

Main Deck:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish

1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard
1 Seedtime
1 Plagiarize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Constant Mists
1 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate

[Goaswerfraiejen]

8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability:

As with most decks, there’s a fair bit of room in River Rock for customization. Your removal package, for example, can be pretty much anything in-colour: I’ve had some success with builds running (always with at least one lone Shriekmaw) Sudden Death, Damnation, Smother, more Shriekmaws, etc. You can choose to run Werebear or Veteran Explorer for added manabase stability (the Explorers are particularly good, by the way), you could go the Dredge-A-Tog route (add some Psychatogs, maybe another Loam, possibly Deep Analysis, etc.), you could increase either your counter or disruption packages.

With that said, I feel that the version that I’ve developed is close to optimal for a blind or internet metagame. As far as customizing slots goes, then, I’d only advise metagame alterations or budgetary considerations. One possibility, for example is to run Diabolic Edict rather than Maelstrom Pulse, and to have two or three Krosan Grips in the sideboard. If you don’t have Intuition but have a few copies of Gifts Ungiven, you could certainly use that, although it’s strictly inferior to Intuition for our purposes. Or, if you’re particularly concerned about the preponderance of Progenitus-type decks in your area, you should opt for Fleshbag Marauder rather than Shriekmaw. Likewise, you could find room to include Wonder somewhere in your 75 if you think it will come in handy (which it certainly does). In other words, the idea is to keep this section as a place to highlight interesting new lists that crop up/developmental possibilities.

Since there aren’t too many of us working on this deck right now (at the time of writing, just one person, in fact: moi), this section of the primer is still a little scant. A few similar lists have cropped up worldwide now and then, but most aren’t really worth mentioning. It would also be possible to discuss a number of similar offshoots that are hanging around, such as Solpugid’s River Rock
[http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8024&highlight=river+rock], dontbiteitolmes’ Plymouth Rock
[http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8226&highlight=plymouth+rock], or nitewolf9’s more recent Team America
[http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11605] (Top4 finish at the Source Anniversary Tournament), but those are probably best left to their own threads. Likewise, Demigod lists should probably be left to their own threads. A few people have recently picked up bruizar's UGB version [http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=667371&viewfull=1#post667371] of a deck called "Nic Fit". This deck closely resembles previous incarnations of and suggestions for our deck. It's fun to play, although I do think (as a result of my experiences over the course of this deck's history) that ours is the better and more streamlined deck.

Most recenty, Hanni has suggested a UGW version of the deck that, I think, shows some promise, athough it eschews pretty much every principle that guides the deck’s current incarnation.

Hanni’s UGw Bant Loam


U/G/w Bant Loam

Lands (21)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland

Creatures (8)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (31)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas

While the deck is creature-light and notable for the absence of the Natural Order combo, it makes up for it with a stronger suite of countermagic and potent control elements, aided in no small part by Jace TMS and KotR. Worm Harvest is supposed to do the harder, aggro-oriented grunt work that Tarmogoyf and KotR are unable to do. All in all, the list looks very promising.

Slightly less recently, Breathweapon posted a version of the deck adapted to support Bloodghast. Although I have not had the time to test it extensively (I’ve been working on this primer solo, among other things), it does look like it has some potential.

UGB River Rock

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Genesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodghast

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit

Here, Bloodghast acts as a secondary beater that is incredibly easy to fetch out with Intuition. It also acts much like Gigapede does post-Crypt, as an independently-recurrable creature. Cephalid Coliseum makes a triumphant return to enable Bloodghast plays, and Cabal Pit attempts to fill Snuff Out’s role by complementing Shriekmaw. Thoughtseize hopes to achieve much the same. Given that the list runs four Thoughtseize, that’s the safer choice. Although the manabase could stand some tweaking, the list looks quite promising, and extremely resilient. From testing, I can say that although the principle is sound, as it stands it’s a tad too slow: Intuition, after all, only puts two Bloodghasts in the graveyard, and there’s no guarantee that they can attack next turn (turn 4 at best) even if you get a land.


Hanni and georgjorge also once brought up the possibility of a Red splash of (an older version of) the deck. Adding burn for added reach and speed is an interesting approach. Obviously, it’s going to differ from the UGB version significantly, but it certainly has potential. Here are their suggested lists:


Hanni’s U/G/r River Rock

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
1 Gigapede
1 Anger

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

Whether or not Mongrel is better than Werebear or Quirion Dryad is a question that’s up for grabs. It’s worth noting that your fundamental Intuition piles remain largely unchanged, except that Anger now replaces Wonder and Barbarian Ring takes Cephalid Coliseum’s place. Instead of disruption, the deck now packs a scary burn package, speeding it up a few turns.


georgjorge’s UGR Late-Thresh:

8 Fetches
8 Duals (of three different styles)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mongrel
3 Mongoose
1 Gigapede
1 Roar of the Wurm
1 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare


It should be clear, at first glance, that this list closely resembles some versions of UGR Threshold, but with late-game elements substituting the Counterbalance lock. Burn acts as removal and reach. The control element here is much weaker than in the UGB version, obviously, but the sacrifice was for a little more speed. Intuition also plays a reduced role, generally complementary to Wild Mongrel (fetching Loam, Wonder, and Barbarian Ring or Roar of the Wurm in order to pitch them).

This opens up the possibility of a white splash for Swords to Plowshares, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, etc. There’s also space for returning to Psychatog (or Tombstalker) with more dredgers, as evidenced by the Worlds list above. These are all interesting avenues to explore, but they require
much more testing to determine their viability. And it’s also still unclear whether these options would benefit from the Natural Order combo, thus bringing them more in line with the deck that I have currently suggested.


Similarly, Hanni recently proposed a list with Terravore as an alternate beater, a choice which also has promise:

U/G/b Aggro/Control Loam

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Raven's Crime
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress

Although I’m still very much in favour of Snuff Out over extra copies of Shriekmaw, there’s no reason why this version couldn’t adapt to that requirement. Similarly, the addition of cycling lands could be used to take some pressure off of the cantrips, giving us a few extra slots.


Finally, although Demigod lists should really have their own thread, Benie Bederios recently suggested a list that would be sufficiently similar to our basic deck of old:

Lands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures
3 Demigod of Revenge
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw

Spells
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Dark Ritual
3 Ponder
2 Smother
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
4 Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip


Again, Benie raised some questions about his removal package and the Intuition-pile with Academy Ruins, but this is nonetheless a list that does the same sorts of things that our basic list does, and it closely resembles Breathweapon’s Bloodghast list, but with a combo finish.



Conclusion

In sum, I can only say that I hope that the deck (or some version of it) interests you and that some of you decide to pick it up. It has its problems, but it also has distinct advantages, and is a blast to play (after all, you get to see and play a chunk of your library most games). The deck has come very far since 2006, but it can go much further (faster) if more people come together and give it a whirl. I encourage you all to do just that, and post your thoughts for a sustained discussion. It is my hope that this new primer will re-invigorate interest in the deck.


Take care and good luck,

-Goaswerfraiejen

[Hanni]

Wow, you must have spent forever on this thing. That's quite a bit of content.

Oh by the way, you don't need to name drop me in every primer you write :P
The credit for this is all yours, nice work.

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, nice primer. The deck has so many solid answers, giving it a great game 1 vs. the majority of the field. Some folks say that white is the neccessary splash color for rock, but you've made a great deck utilizing blue. Love the deck! It's fundamentally a control deck, but with incredible aggro elements and a really great toolbox. I particularly like how you play 6 cantrips...you don't need MORE control elements, just the ability to dig out the right ones. Solid. I know you said 61 cards isn't an issue (I agree) I'm just curious how you came about getting to 61 cards? Was there a specific reason for it, or was it just a 'gut feeling' that it would work?

Just one more curious question for you: if Gifts Ungiven were available to you (it's banned, right?) would you play it in this deck to augment Intuition?

[jazzykat]

This sir is an epic primer. I will attempt to play this, in a tournament, in honor of your effort.

[Mana Drain]

Great primer. Extremely inclusive, with the bonus sample hands and the detailed deck history. Solid work my good man.

The only thing I'm going to nitpick about is 1) 3x Brainstorm, and 2) Empyrial Archangel MD, possibly as the 61st card. On BS, really? I mean, boosting overall hand-quality, gaining massive card-advantage with Loam online, and being an Instant are the reasons why it's one of the best blue spells in the format. Ponder does none of these, but gives you a shuffle effect in return. Why don't you just run more fetches, and go with 4xBS 2xPonder? On Archangel, I just think Prog gets the job done any time Archangel would get it done too, with exception against Merfolk, where Archangel is indeed a saving grace. With 4 BS, drawing your only NO target is slightly lessened, in additon to the fact that you're not likely to draw it.

Other than those two minor nit-picks, very cool deck and good luck with it!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Hmm, looks like I forgot the matchup sections for Sneak Attack/Show and Tell (essentially an auto-loss) and Solidarity (not a real concern; still fizzles a lot more than it should). I'll edit those in later today/early tonight.


Now, to answer your questions (thanks for all the compliments and the interest, by the way).



I know you said 61 cards isn't an issue (I agree) I'm just curious how you came about getting to 61 cards? Was there a specific reason for it, or was it just a 'gut feeling' that it would work?

I'm a very cautious person by nature, and unfortunately it sometimes makes me less than ruthless when designing MTG decks. In this case, I just couldn't see anything that I wanted to cut (except perhaps Empyrial Archangel, but more on that a little later), and the deck was performing perfectly smoothly with 61 cards. Consequently, I decided that keeping the 61st card was doing the deck more good than harm.

As always, please remember that even if I've written a 47-page primer, I'm still just as prone to error as anyone else. The fact that I dismissed the Natural Order combo in UGB Intuition-Thresh for so long is good evidence of that (I was so very, very wrong). Had anyone pushed back on that point, maybe we would have arrived at this point months ago instead of now.



Just one more curious question for you: if Gifts Ungiven were available to you (it's banned, right?) would you play it in this deck to augment Intuition?

Gifts Ungiven is not actually banned in Legacy (list here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy)). In any case, it would certainly not be worth replacing Intuition with Gifts, since the two cards do fundamentally different things, and Gifts forces me to start running too many suboptimal cards in order to make sure that I can get what I want. Intuition often works because it grabs multiples of one card, rather than several different cards (although it can be used to do that too). Similarly, I don't think that Gifts Ungiven would really complement Intuition enough to warrant its inclusion alongside Intuition. At the moment, I just run three Intuition--if I need more of the same effect, the natural place to go for it is the fourth Intuition. Going to five or six tutoring effects, however, is just too much IMO (especially since cantrips can do the same thing for a smaller mana investment), and ends up diluting the deck's power and response time.







The only thing I'm going to nitpick about is 1) 3x Brainstorm, and 2) Empyrial Archangel MD, possibly as the 61st card.


Fair enough. All I can do on those points is give you my reasoning, and leave the evaluation to you. Often, as I noted above, I have trouble stepping back enough to see the light. Also, of course, nothing I say on these points should be taken as a reason for you (or someone else who picks up the deck) not to make that change for yourself. These are not, after all, central elements of the deck.



On BS, really? I mean, boosting overall hand-quality, gaining massive card-advantage with Loam online, and being an Instant are the reasons why it's one of the best blue spells in the format. Ponder does none of these, but gives you a shuffle effect in return. Why don't you just run more fetches, and go with 4xBS 2xPonder?


There's a lot here, so please forgive me for using the number-system. I want to address each point clearly, which the numbers help me to do; on the other hand, they look more like an official list of reasons for rejecting your argument, which they are most certainly not.

1.) The first thing to say is that I'm not against going 4-2 in principle. I just happen to think that the 3-3 split works very well, and in some ways better than a 4-2 split does.

1.) Interactions between Brainstorm and Loam actually seldom come into play--mostly because Loam is essentially an ancillary option. Ponder can still yield the same number of Dredge activations (1) if necessary (it usually isn't). Brainstorm, of course, has the bonus of allowing you to dredge at any point in the three draws, giving you access to more cards overall (and helping you trade dead draws for better draws). That's definitely powerful, and perhaps I'm under-using the option (that's also very possible). But again, I seldom use that strategy anyway, largely because I spend more of my time and efforts on making Natural Order connect than fetching out Loam (and so the option to BS with Loam in the yard is less frequently available), and because blind Brainstorms don't seem worth Dredging into (particularly if I have to dredge away poor draws next turn).

2.) As a first or second-turn play, Ponder is much better for manafixing, which is a big concern. This is particularly relevant because the number of fetches is already high enough that we're often talking about needing to crack a fetch in our opening hand (or that we've drawn) to cast the cantrip; this is a problem for BS because it leaves it with no way to shuffle back a bad hand any more. In the late-game, I prefer Ponder to BS because it does more to set up my next few turns, especially if nothing good or necessary is forthcoming. For example, if I'm desperately searching for removal, my odds of finding it are higher with Ponder than BS.

3.) My concern with more fetches is that they will destabilize the manabase, not to mention the fact that we're already looking at a significant amount of life loss. I could see one more fitting in, but two would be a real stretch. Anything more than two would be out of the question, I think. The problem here is that the corresponding number of lands that can be fetched out is relatively low.

4.) The biggest advantage of running one more BS is the extra ability to put Progenitus or the Archangel back on top of the library, and that's nothing to sneer at.


Now, here's the thing. The 3-3 BS/Ponder split was arrived at in one of the deck's previous incarnations, and these incarnations were far more land-light and vulnerable. It was found to work very well here, especially in lieu of Top (which would be awesome). I am happy to do some testing with a 4-2 split, however, and I invite anyone who dislikes the 3-3 split to go 4-2 with their own decks instead. I don't think that the corresponding effect on the deck will be particularly huge--I just think that it works a little more smoothly with the 3-3 split. And perhaps I'm wrong.



On Archangel, I just think Prog gets the job done any time Archangel would get it done too, with exception against Merfolk, where Archangel is indeed a saving grace. With 4 BS, drawing your only NO target is slightly lessened, in additon to the fact that you're not likely to draw it.


One of the main reasons to run Archangel as well is actually that having two large tutorable fatties allows me both to draw one and not have to worry about putting it back, but also to pitch one to FoW if necessary (with the added bonus that the opponent thinks I'm out of significant NO targets). Basically, it gives me a little more flexibility. Of course, it's also sometimes a handy option to have in G1, when things aren't going as well. Archangel is definitely the 61st card, but I think that the tradeoff is fair enough. Again, of course, perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Cenarius]

It might be a bit harsh, but I stopped reading after your decklist showed only 3 Brainstorm's. You might want to cut something for the 4th copy.

[ReAnimator]

Wow that is a lot of work, i haven't waded through it all yet but certain things are really interesting, great job.

I've been thinking about running an Intuition/demigod list with goyfs and to find one here is a great jumping off point for me.

Out of curiosity, why no discussion of Accumulated Knowledge? I know it isn't as good for selection etc as Ponder, but so few decks in legacy actually have raw card advantage and you have other cards for selection, have you tried it at all in any build or is it just to slow and clunky? Or is it more that that would be the last thing you ever want to Intuition for or do you not want your yard to be a liability?

I'm going to give AK a go in a demigod build, having a few rituals will make the casting cost a little easier in certain situations, also i like the synergy of AK and Ravens crime.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It might be a bit harsh, but I stopped reading after your decklist showed only 3 Brainstorm's. You might want to cut something for the 4th copy.

It might be a bit harsh, but if you stopped reading right there you aren't qualified to comment on the decision. You might also want to read the comment where I address that, which happens to be right above your own. I have no problem being wrong or admitting when I am (indeed, I am re-testing with the 4-2 split suggested to see if I was mistaken in the assessment that came out of my earlier testing).




Out of curiosity, why no discussion of Accumulated Knowledge? I know it isn't as good for selection etc as Ponder, but so few decks in legacy actually have raw card advantage and you have other cards for selection, have you tried it at all in any build or is it just to slow and clunky? Or is it more that that would be the last thing you ever want to Intuition for or do you not want your yard to be a liability?

Is it not in the "rejected" cards I discussed? I'd be more than happy to insert it, then--it was tested, but quite some time ago. Essentially, the answer to your question is "yes" to pretty much all of the above: it's too slow, clunky, and gimmicky to work well here when cantrips can do the same and more for less (both in terms of a lower cmc, but also because they require no setup). I'd rather be using Intuition to set myself up or respond to an emergency than to draw some cards. Even Cephalid Coliseum would probably work better in that capacity.

Which is not to say that AK never has a place in a deck with Intuition. It's just that I don't think it suits my own purposes. I have seen it in use in some Demigod decks, but I have no clue how well it was working for them.



I'm going to give AK a go in a demigod build, having a few rituals will make the casting cost a little easier in certain situations, also i like the synergy of AK and Ravens crime.

My apologies, but I'm not sure I see the synergy...?


I should probably point out that the Demigod list there was suggested about a year ago, so whatever else it may be, it's definitely out of date. So yeah, as long as you're not jumping from too great a height... ;)

[ReAnimator]

My apologies, but I'm not sure I see the synergy...?


I should probably point out that the Demigod list there was suggested about a year ago, so whatever else it may be, it's definitely out of date. So yeah, as long as you're not jumping from too great a height... ;)

Thanks for the feedback, the AK / ravens synergy is nothing more than having a lot of extra cards in had (some will be lands), retrace really doesn't work that well without a way of fueling it, and this really doesn't have a huge use for lots of extra lands.

[Rood]

I can only imagine how long it took to write up that Primer, good work. I'll add it to my testing gauntlet next time I test some Legacy.

[Uncoordinated]

I love this deck. Specifically, your current concoction in the first post with Hierarch, Witness, Finks, and NOgenitus.

I have a few tiny questions regarding card choices in your first decklist. First, why three Witnesses? Unearth/Loam/Stronghold all enable you to run two and still guarantee a Witness somewhere, do they not? Do you ever run into issues with timely StPs on your Witnesses?

Have you tested other creatures in the Archangel's slot? I think it's a great choice, but I'd like to hear your results if you've tested alternatives.

Number of lands vs. number of cantrips? You mentioned above that you were retesting the Brainstorm/Ponder numbers. Did you fiddle around with land count in conjunction with those? This is where I think Hierarch really shines, as it does let you run a small number of lands relative to more traditional Rock builds and still maintain some consistency.

What about a second Forest ( probably in place of a dual )? Have you ever had trouble against dedicated mana disruption strategies shutting you off your only basic source of G?

Other singleton Intuition targets that weren't mentioned on your rejected list? You have Crime, and mentioned Therapy, but it's not listed. What about singletons that you could - REALLY SLOWLY - recur with Witness/Stronghold? I was thinking along the lines of diversifying either your removal or your threats, but you seem to have the conventional targets for threats down. Have you tested bounce or perhaps a singleton Jitte or something? How often do you actually get to recur EE/Deed with recur'd Witnesses, heh?

My apologies if some of these farfetch'd ideas are mentioned in your more lengthy primer. I hope this archetype flourishes, 'cos it's my favourite colour combination and exactly the type of deck I was looking for - proactive, strong mid - late game, and with some free disruption to boot.

[Muradin]

I have not yet come to a conclusion, whether the deck is good, but it is a blast to play for sure. I like all the different engines and the way the deck can switch between aggro/control with the powerful Natural Order combo in the mix.

Especially wiping your opponent's board with a Pernicious Deed while having a 10/10 hydra in play is a good feeling.

Props on that primer, must have been a lot of work. Hope some people appreciate that and give the deck a whirl.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I have a few tiny questions regarding card choices in your first decklist. First, why three Witnesses? Unearth/Loam/Stronghold all enable you to run two and still guarantee a Witness somewhere, do they not?

Quite simply, the interaction does not work consistently with two Witnesses. Running three means that once you draw one, you can still fetch out the Witness/Unearth Intuition pile and use it more or less immediately. Loam and Stronghold can approximate the effect, but it's quite slow and much less reliable--making it fantastic for later in the game, when you've used up your resources and can't Intuition them out any more. But the Witness/Unearth pile is actually great at pretty much any point in time--especially for recycling a failed early NO.

The downside is that the third Witness ate the slot I'd devoted to my third Finks, and Finks is a powerhouse here. But Witness is a far more versatile powerhouse.



Do you ever run into issues with timely StPs on your Witnesses?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "timely StP" (that I have to ask the question probably indicates that I haven't run into any such problems, although that does not mean that I won't ever). At any rate, losing Witness to StP or PtE is not really a concern; I'd rather see Witnesses removed than Finks, Tarmogoyf, or, indeed, Hierarch.



Have you tested other creatures in the Archangel's slot? I think it's a great choice, but I'd like to hear your results if you've tested alternatives.

I did flirt with a few very briefly, but the only one that I can remember at the moment was Woodfall Primus. It had the bonus of being much easier to cast and having Persist, but the downside of its effect being less useful (obviously, the situations in which you fetch it out are vastly different from the Archangel, whose evasion also makes it a good non-Prog beater) and not pitching to FoW in a pinch. If you have any other suggestions or just some creatures you'd like me to have a whirl with, however, then by all means do suggest them. I'd love to give them a try.



Number of lands vs. number of cantrips? You mentioned above that you were retesting the Brainstorm/Ponder numbers. Did you fiddle around with land count in conjunction with those? This is where I think Hierarch really shines, as it does let you run a small number of lands relative to more traditional Rock builds and still maintain some consistency.

Yup on all counts. The relation between Hierarch, "hard" lands, fetches, and cantrips is a fragile but extremely important one. I haven't yet made any adjustments to the manabase in light of the 4-2 BS-Ponder split, because I want to see how it behaves with the current configuration first. If I run into problems, then I'll make some adjustments; if I don't, I won't. At present, the differences appear to be fairly minimal, but I think that assessment is slightly skewed by the fact that I've been drawing my two Ponders an awful lot more than it seems I should be. A little more time should tell.



What about a second Forest ( probably in place of a dual )? Have you ever had trouble against dedicated mana disruption strategies shutting you off your only basic source of G?

I'm all for more basics, particularly another Forest. I've been reticent to toy with a manabase that's actually working for a change (if you look back through the threads, you'll see the manabase has consistently been my Achilles heel), but I suspect that Underground Sea or Tropical Island might be good places to look for a single extra slot.

As far as dedicated mana disruption goes, Hierarch has actually made it very difficult to cut me off from G or U so long as I have a basic Forest in play (since that requires both land destruction and removal, effectively spreading the damage across multiple turns). With cantrips, I can guarantee a fair few land drops throughout the game. Smallpox is absolutely awful because it destroys things indiscriminately--indeed, of any deck dedicated to disrupting manabases, Pox is the most problematic. Other MB decks tend to be slow enough in their disruption that it doesn't matter too much, and decks that rely on Wasteland and even Stifle aren't super-effective any more (unless my starting hand is the pits).



Other singleton Intuition targets that weren't mentioned on your rejected list? You have Crime, and mentioned Therapy, but it's not listed.


I don't run Raven's Crime any more--as I said, it's become too slow, even though it was awesome at the time. Now, its inclusion would be more of a party trick that eats up slots and consistency. I prefer to cut one-ofs in favour of cards and effects that are consistently repeatable--that's where the deck's strength lies. I'm not running three NOs; I'm effectively running between seven (with Witness and Unearth) and twelve (cantrips and Intuition, which allow me to find it with far more regularity but obviously don't add to the count in a 1:1 relation). Similarly, I'm not running six pieces of removal MD; I'm running 10+. And so on. Unearth, Loam, Shriekmaw, and Stronghold are exceptions, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule because they're so versatile, are effectively extra copies of existing cards, and end up allowing me to fetch out so many different configurations to achieve the desired effect(s). Very few other one-ofs that I could include can achieve the same degree of synergy and efficiency.



What about singletons that you could - REALLY SLOWLY - recur with Witness/Stronghold?


Well, they'd have to be good enough to warrant cutting existing cards but not good enough to warrant multiples. I don't know that I can really think of any in this respect, but I'd love to hear more suggestions (other than Jitte, which you suggest below). The trick is that it has to be something that I don't mind getting in my hand through Intuition. So, for example, if I really need targeted removal and cast Intuition for it, I want to be able to grab 3x Snuff Out or, if mana allows, some combination of Snuff Out and Witness or Unearth or Maelstrom Pulse or Shriekmaw. If I am forced to get 2x Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict or Innocent Blood, that's not as good. Now that's just an example, but the principle is the same: whatever the new card is, I don't want it to ever be the dead wood of an Intuition pile.



I was thinking along the lines of diversifying either your removal or your threats, but you seem to have the conventional targets for threats down. Have you tested bounce or perhaps a singleton Jitte or something?

I did try Submerge for a time, but I couldn't make it fit properly. Jitte, I've not tried in years. If you have some ideas as to how these (or other cards) might be made to fit in the main 61, I'd be interested in hearing and trying them.



How often do you actually get to recur EE/Deed with recur'd Witnesses, heh?

All the time! Although NO and Snuff Out often take precedence, particularly in G1 since I don't have access to Deed or EE then. Against decks where Deed and EE and particularly effective (like Zoo), I try to always recur them with Witness since there's just no way for the opponent to cope with that much removal (Deed + EE + Snuff Out + Maelstrom Pulse + Shriekmaw = 12 pieces of removal plus recursion, and most of it destroys multiples).



My apologies if some of these farfetch'd ideas are mentioned in your more lengthy primer. I hope this archetype flourishes, 'cos it's my favourite colour combination and exactly the type of deck I was looking for - proactive, strong mid - late game, and with some free disruption to boot.

Not at all--I'm very happy to test just about anything, because the deck is a real blast to play and so testing is never onerous. It's even better, of course, when other people are testing things too! The problem I've run into in the past is that I tend to be the only one testing anything, which slows the process down and leaves it quite vulnerable to my own biases (such as my foolish resistance to converting earlier version to the NO/Prog combo).


Thank you all for your interest. I hope the deck continues to pique some small amount of your interest, and that you'll continue to call me out on my foolishness.

[Uncoordinated]

@Goaswerfraiejen:

I would also have swapped the third Witness for a Finks in your decklist. As it is, I prefer the consistency that it offers after some very rudimentary testing. The 3/3 cantrip split works well. Perhaps if we ran more fetches I would advocate going up to four Brainstorms. The "timely StPs" I mentioned was mostly due to the fact that I tried to run less Witnesses and undervalued the power of NOgenitus. We really don't care whether they remove bits of our Loam/Witness/Stronghold engine, as Witness as basically done her job once she hits the battlefield.

If anyone has doubts about NOgenitus in this build, you really shouldn't. The number of green creatures, combined with recursion, make for really consistent turn 3/4 Progenitus in the matchups you want them. I would really like to bump up the number of Finks just because of the power of NO and the fact that I often stabilize at a low life total.

As for testing alternate NO targets, I think your current ones do fine. Archangel is pretty nice, letting you stabilize where you wouldn't with Progenitus. It also ups the blue count to barely supporting Force. I've actually encountered trouble with pitch fodder, as I have to pitch Intuition/Brainstorm quite often, which makes me sad.

The singleton Intuition targets were probably going to be sideboard to shore up bad matchups. I mentioned Jitte just because I have a bad habit of including it everywhere. How often do you alternate your sideboard Intuition piles of Deed x 3; Crypt x 2, Relic x 1; etc. when you have a Witness in hand or 'yard? Do you find yourself holding on to Witnesses if you've got Intuition to set up a more diverse pile, or do you prefer to stick her out for chump/recursion/removal bait? I asked about recurring EE/Deed 'cos that would essentially be my aim with a singleton artifact/enchantment. Honestly, I can't think of any targets that you haven't mentioned/included.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So... the obvious question for us now is whether Green Sun's Zenith (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114212&d=1295289915) will fit into the deck and, if so, how?

My natural inclination is to want to include it, since it's fairly versatile. The ability to fetch out Dryad Arbor (even after a land drop) is also quite sexy to me. Where it might fit, however, is another question entirely. Intuition might be the obvious choice since the two cards can do similar things. On the other hand, I'm rather attached to Intuition by now because it's so versatile--it's still more versatile than GSZ, since it allows us to fetch out anything at all, and it also keeps the blue count steady for FoW. My other thought would be to cut one or more Finks, and perhaps relegate the Archangel back to the SB for 2-3 empty slots, but I'm not sure. Making room in the manabase to accomodate Dryad Arbor would also be difficult.

I just don't know at the moment. I guess I will need to spend some time testing it. What are all of your thoughts?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, I've been doing some limited testing, and I suspect GSZ is a must. It's insanely powerful, and enables some really broken plays in this deck--on both the aggro and control sides of things.

So far, I've replaced Shriekmaw with Fleshbag Marauder. This replacement is, I think, essential now for a few reasons:

-Other people will be toting Natural Order and Progenitus.
-Unearth recycles it.
-GSZ fetches it out pretty easily. [EDIT: Doh. No it doesn't. But still, the other points make it a necessary change, I think.]

I've replaced the two Finks with GSZ, and cut a Hierarch to make some more room for a third copy. I also tinkered around with the manabase a tad to make room for two Dryad Arbor. I don't like losing the Finks, and would like to find a way to plug at least one back in eventually. I'm also wary of having too many Dryad Arbors, because losing them to removal/Wasteland/etc. will be extremely unpleasant. Even with this fairly minimalistic set of changes, however, I can already feel a power surge in the deck.

One more general concern that I have, however, is that other decks might end up abusing GSZ even more effectively, and might prove tough opponents. GSZ will be format changing, and I can't tell if this deck will be able to compete in the new atmosphere. But I'm going to keep on trying damn hard to make it work!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

OK, so I have a few things to add, then:

1.) I haven't noticed any significant losses from going to 4 BS and 2 Ponder, so I guess the change is worth making. It's actually a more important change for those of us trying to work GSZ into the deck, since I think the Archangel has to be relegated to the SB for it to fit (that, or lose the Finks--but Kitchen Finks is so bloody handy, and I'm already torn about going below two copies).

2.) Having Spell Pierce in the sideboard is a decent way of shoring up the combo matchup and gives us something interesting to sub in for Natural Order. It's also helpful against Jace.

3.) Green Sun's Zenith is still powerful and handy, but I'm not sure entirely how well it's fitting into the deck. I'd appreciate someone else's input and testing on this point, actually. I feel as though I'm trying too hard to make it fit into the deck, when the deck was working perfectly well before its inclusion. Making cuts to accommodate GSZ (just three copies) has been difficult, and I'm lamenting the loss of my second Finks and my MD Archangel, actually. I'm not really seeing any improvements in consistency in return. Perhaps someone else can make it fit the deck better, but I'm not entirely convinced at this point. Perhaps GSZ, Glissa, and EE would be a natural fit for the deck, however, given its previous incarnations. Out of curiosity, I'm going to test a variant that uses those three cards and Executioner's Capsule in place of the existing removal package.

4.) I suspect Fleshbag Marauder is a safer bet than Shriekmaw at the moment, given the prevalence of Emrakul. Emrakul usually crushes this deck, but it's nice to have a small chance. Plus, it's still quite handy. EDIT: Idiot that I am, I forgot that Shriekmaw also hits Emrakul. So never mind that, unless there are lots of other untargetable fatties running around.

So those are my most recent thoughts. Currently, my decklist looks like this:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (16)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Spell Pierce
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So I'm just posting to ask if anyone who was interested in picking the deck up had any new thoughts to share.

Also, an update: I just have a few more weeks of my coursework to go, and then I'll be able to participate in the Legacy scene here (my physical deck is finally complete, save for a single Pulse and a Bayou, but those are easy enough to fudge for now).

I've been testing on and off, and it's pretty clear to me that the GSZ version just lacks some of the adaptability and focus. So I'm sticking to the usual list. Spell Snare (SB) is working fantastically well, by the way.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

With New Phyrexia spoiled and on its way, I think there are a few points to consider here:

1.) Mental Misstep is not particularly good against this deck. That's a net benefit.
2.) Is Mental Misstep any good in the deck?

I think that the answer to (2) is affirmative. The question, then, is where to fit it in. My current thinking is that it can definitely replace Spell Pierce in the SB, but it can also perhaps replace Ponder (although the loss of Ponder pains me greatly) and maybe even Archangel in the MD. The fact that its alternate cost is just U means that we don't need to worry too much about life loss from it, fetches, and Snuff Out. On the other hand, the question to be examined is, in the first place, how much immediate net benefit we can gain from it and, in the second place, whether it's even worth running in the long-term, once the format has adapted to its presence.

I suppose only testing can bear out the answers, but I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks. I'd especially like to hear back if anyone's tried testing MM.

The good news is that I think the deck is VERY well placed if the format shifts!

[The Treefolk Master]

I find the deck to be extremely fun and poweful, and I'm thinking of building it (I'm only missing the 3 Bayous). I would like to ask you if it is possible to build the deck sans the Bayous and still function correctly? I guess I could get them, but I'd rather not have to :tongue:

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I find the deck to be extremely fun and poweful, and I'm thinking of building it (I'm only missing the 3 Bayous). I would like to ask you if it is possible to build the deck sans the Bayous and still function correctly? I guess I could get them, but I'd rather not have to :tongue:

Sorry for the late reply. You can definitely build it without Bayous, but it also impacts your game.Being able to fetch black and green at once is very useful (f you have one bayou or an overgrown tomb, that might be one way to mitigate the loss). To make up for the loss of the Bayous, I think that an extra Tropical Island (if you have it; basic Forest or a Verdant Catacombs otherwise), Forest, and Swamp can probably do the trick. I myself have only one Bayou, which I supplement with an Overgrown Tomb and a Forest. It's far from ideal, but when the deck costs as much as this one does, you do what you can. Losing Bayou basically mostly impacts some of your early options, so trading that off for more consistency should work out overall, IMO.

In other news, there's a tournament nearby(ish) Saturday the 14th, so I'll take the deck there if I can (I might be out of town; hopefully not!). I'm also pretty much sold on -2 Ponder, -1 Archangel (relegated to SB, replaced 1 Spell Pierce with it) for +3 Mental Misstep right now. I just keep getting insane hands with Hierach, access to Tropical Island, Misstep, Force/Daze, etc. I don't like losing Ponder, but the consistency (and overall resiliency) is going through the roof, so...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I missed the big tournament last week, but made it to the weekly tournament today. I piloted this deck to 5/29. Won an NPH booster for my efforts (no entry fee, so yay!).

Round 1: Affinity - I won 2-1. The first game, I had crap all for a hand. I think I cast Noble Hierarch on my fourth turn, and died the next turn. crushed the Affinity deck the next two games (thanks to Deed and Progenitus), which is as it should be.

Round 2: UGR Pyromancer's Ascension combo - I won 2-1. Took me a while to figure out what this deck was and did. I lost the first game with my opponent at 1 life. Proceeded to win the next two thanks to Maelstrom Pulse and Chalice of the Void.

Round 3: The Rock - I lost 2-0. In fact, I won the first game but fucked up: I didn't realize that my Goyf was 5/6 until a turn after I'd attacked, thought I'd be nice and forget about it, and ended up losing after beating him down to 1 life. :( Oh well. G2 was very close: he managed to Thoughtseize me at the end of the game, getting the Natural Order that was about to win it for me. I then made the rather nooblish mistake of double-blocking his KOTR with my Goyfs, and he used KOTR number 2 to fetch and pop a Canopy, thereby killing my Goyfs. It didn't cost me the game (since I proceeded to draw lands), but it was idiotic nonetheless.


So there you have it. Fifth out of twenty-nine, in a meta that primarily seems to be aggro. I'll be attending these tournaments every week, piloting this deck. Unfortunately, as you'll see below, I have a couple of suboptimal cards due to the fact that I don't own them/they've gone missing, but it's close enough to work pretty well. I'm going to try very hard to find the third Pulse, though: that's a big deal (even though Crime/Punishment allowed for a stellar play versus Affinity). Here was the list:

UGB River Rock: Le Valet d'Coeur 26/05/11 - 5/29

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb (I only have 1 Bayou)
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Forest (Lacking a Bayou)
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus


Spells (29)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment (I'm missing 1 Pulse)
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Spell Snare (I don't have Pierces)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thorn of Amethyst (one of my Chalices is missing. Nooo!)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel


EDIT: Come to think of it, I think I actually tied for fourth. Oh well, no big deal. Let's say fifth.

[Hanni]

I really think you'd benefit far more by dropping black for white. Knight of the Reliquary is the best creature for your deck, hands down. Swords to Plowshares is also alot better against a field of aggro than the black removal options.

Also, you should running 2 Lonely Sandbar's to get more mileage out of Loam during the midgame.

Lastly, I'd really like to see a singleton Worm Harvest in here. It's a tutorable win-condition with Intuition that wins games quickly once you get to the midgame. It's a great answer to aggro (makes a bunch of chumps), and after a few turns of swarming with 1/1's, you can go EtW-style alpha strike and just win.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Went to the weekly tournament today--I tied for first out of 32. I went 6-1 (after 3 rounds), but my breakers put me in second place. Still, I won a pack of Fifth Dawn and a pack of NPH (neither of which had anything worthy of note). A few more solid placements, and I'll ask to have the thread moved back to the 'Established' section.

Round 1: Belcher. Of all the storm combo decks, this is the only one that River Rock can beat fairly easily, and I crushed it 2-0. Both times he had to go for the kill with Warrens, and both times I was able to sweep the board with Pulse and ride a Goyf to victory.

Round 2: RUG NO-genitus. This is where I went 2-1. I lost the first game to manascrew: all I played for the first four turns was a single land and a Brainstorm that went nowhere. Game two, we both had good starts, but my deck was easily the stronger of the two and I beat face with two Goyfs. Game three, I had an average start that led to a turn five Progenitus, and he had a fairly slow start that couldn't compete (he did have an Order in hand, but nothing green to sacrifice).

Round 3: Mono-R Welder. Didn't have a clue what this was for a while. I raced Welder with Progenitus G1, and destroyed a Welder and then beat face with Progenitus G2. No trouble here.


I had the following sideboard, but to be honest, I neither ended up using the changes, nor did the changes seem particularly useful overall. I'll probably be going back to the original configuration for next week (potential exception: if I can find a Worm Harvest by then).

3 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst (still haven't found my fourth Chalice)
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Damnation
1 Empyrial Archangel




I noticed that there was far less aggro this week; people seem to have shifted to control. I saw a few Landstill lists. It's cool that the meta here is so healthy, and not stagnant. Unfortunately, I missed last week's weekly, and will have to miss a larger tournament this Saturday. :( I waited until today to respond to Hanni because I wanted to have another placement under my belt--plus, that way, it's not just me posting too many times in a row.





I really think you'd benefit far more by dropping black for white. Knight of the Reliquary is the best creature for your deck, hands down. Swords to Plowshares is also alot better against a field of aggro than the black removal options.

I disagree for a few reasons. Most importantly, why splash for white when we could be playing NO-Bant instead? Well, I don't disagree that white might be better in a field of aggro--just that I should convert to white, or that it's worth playing UGW but trying to remain distinct from NO-Bant.

Losing black means losing access to these key pieces:

*Volrath's Stronghold
*Shriekmaw
*Unearth
*Snuff Out
*Maelstrom Pulse
*Pernicious Deed

White can replace Snuff Out and Shriekmaw with Swords to Plowshares. No big deal there, although the tempo element that Snuff Out represents is actually quite important. Pulse could be replaced with Oblivion Ring, but Knight of the Reliquary would have to take that slot instead. The loss of that control element is a bit of a downer, but gaining KotR may make up for it. Stronghold would then become Maze of Ith, I guess. Again, the mid/long-game suffers a bit, but not too much. Deed would be replaced with EE, which is fine. Unearth, however, can't be replaced, and that's a big loss: Unearth is an amazing component of the deck, perhaps one of its most important (despite the fact that it's just one copy). It really stands out.

So, on the whole, it seems like going to white is a net loss as far as the deck is concerned: we sacrifice our best and most interesting control pieces, the very pieces that differentiate the deck from other UGX Progenitus decks. This isn't to say that a UGW version is bad--rather, my point is simply that UGW is an entirely different deck, and it's called NO-Bant. I do suspect that UGW would be a little more consistent versus a field of aggro, but it's worth noting that UGB doesn't just cave in to aggro. And I think it's more suited to a variable metagame.



Also, you should running 2 Lonely Sandbar's to get more mileage out of Loam during the midgame.

The only difficulty is that I don't see how I could do this without compromising the manabase. If you've got a suggestion, however, I'm more than happy to try.



Lastly, I'd really like to see a singleton Worm Harvest in here. It's a tutorable win-condition with Intuition that wins games quickly once you get to the midgame. It's a great answer to aggro (makes a bunch of chumps), and after a few turns of swarming with 1/1's, you can go EtW-style alpha strike and just win.

You know, I agree. At the very least, I should have one in my SB, since it would help so much versus Landstill. I don't know if I can fit a copy into the MD though. (Confession: I don't actually own a Worm Harvest, so I'll have to try to acquire one soon.)

[Hanni]

I disagree for a few reasons. Most importantly, why splash for white when we could be playing NO-Bant instead? Well, I don't disagree that white might be better in a field of aggro--just that I should convert to white, or that it's worth playing UGW but trying to remain distinct from NO-Bant.


As I've said before, there are many ways to play Bant. Why play NO Bant when you could play CounterTop Bant, for example?

Natural Order is a great win condition, but it's still susceptible to removal (prior to being cast), being countered (or maybe discarded), having the manabase attacked so that you cannot hit 2GG, or simply being raced. This is by no means me saying Natural Order isn't an amazing spell; clearly, tournament results speak for themselves.

However, neither Natural Order nor Counter-Top invalidate Intuition-Loam as a valid approach. I feel as though Bant (UGw) is an upgrade to Jund (GRb), as far as Aggro Loam is concerned. That's essentially what this deck is; Aggro Loam w/ Blue. Or you could call it New Horizons with the Intuition-Loam engine added. Either way, the deck is pretty good.


Losing black means losing access to these key pieces:

*Volrath's Stronghold
*Shriekmaw
*Unearth
*Snuff Out
*Maelstrom Pulse
*Pernicious Deed


Volrath's Stronghold is unecessary with Worm Harvest.

Shriekmaw and Snuff Out are inferior removal spells compared to Swords to Plowshares.

Even if Shriekmaw can be recurred with Volrath's Stronghold, Engineered Explosives can be recurred with Academy Ruins, so the point is moot.

Maelstrom Pulse can easily become Oblivion Ring, and EE is a sufficient replacement for Pernicous Deed.

I fail to see understand why Unearth would be that important. It's a Reanimate for your 2cc and 3cc creatures, which you could just as easily hardcast. I'd rather run more creatures before running Unearth, since they aren't dead draws if I don't have any creatures in the graveyard.


The only difficulty is that I don't see how I could do this without compromising the manabase. If you've got a suggestion, however, I'm more than happy to try.


I've actually dropped the Lonely Sandbars from my list altogether because they just aren't necessary with Worm Harvest and Ruins/EE, and you are right that they do compromise the manabase. Disregard my suggestion of Lonely Sandbars.


You know, I agree. At the very least, I should have one in my SB, since it would help so much versus Landstill. I don't know if I can fit a copy into the MD though. (Confession: I don't actually own a Worm Harvest, so I'll have to try to acquire one soon.)


Worm Harvest needs to be maindecked. It's a tutorable win condition. Once you hit 5 mana, every excess land in your hand, whether from topdeck or Loam, can be pitched to make a horde of 1/1 tokens. It's not only gamewinning against control decks, it also prevents evasiveless attackers from pushing any damage through. A few turns of Worm Harvest and it's gg. By the time I cast it, I'm usually able to get at least 5 1/1 tokens, but some games I'm making 10 1/1's a cast. It's like a recurring EtW finish. It's brutal against both aggro and control alike, and it's tutorable with Intuition. Worm Harvest singlehandedly replaces cards like Genesis, Gigapede, Volrath's Stronghold, so on and so forth.

Anyway, here is my current U/G/w Bant Loam list:

U/G/w Bant Loam

// Lands (21)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (8)
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells (31)
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Tied for second place tonight, out of 28. There was a 4-way tie for first, though, so I came fifth after all the breakers and got a pack of Future Sight (with nothing of interest in it) for my troubles. :)

R1: Team America - 2-0 - I started by mulling to 5 and having to keep a crappy hand, but my opponent didn't draw Force of Will, and I stayed Daze-proof, so I got a Progenitus into play and easily raced his Tombstalker. G2 saw me with quite a decent hand and Progenitus for the win. I ended up casting Natural Order three times (Progenitus got hit by Perish, then I recurred it with Witness and it was countered, and I finally used Unearth to return a Witness, then Order, and was able to back it with FoW).

R2: Combo Elves - 1-2 - I cast a third turn Progenitus, and it raced a pile of 9/9 elves. Unfortunately, that's where my luck ran out: I had a god hand for G2 (Snuff Out, Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Tropical Island, Noble Hierarch, Intuition, Brainstorm), but never ended up having access to black mana. I ended up casting Brainstorm three times (thanks again to Unearth on a dead Witness), seeing 7 new cards in two turns, but no black mana. Too bad, because I was staring down an army of 1cc elves and would have won had I been able to cast Punishment. G3, I had to mull to 4 (no lands). I lost as a result, obviously.

R3: R/U Control - 2-0 - I won G1 easily with a T3/T4 Progenitus. G2 was also an easy win--with a massive army of non-Progenitus creatures, this time (the only game I won tonight without Progenitus)! Thanks again to Unearth, and props to Wasteland for helping me to take advantage of his mana-light opening.


This was my sideboard, although I didn't really end up using it:

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Empyrial Archangel


Hanni: Thanks for your thoughts, and the more detailed outline of an approach (list). I'll give it a spin, and will be sure to update it into the primer. I should note, however, that I'm still biased towards my own list, which hasn't been doing too badly at all of late. Since I also lack a chunk of the cards required to try testing your list properly IRL (Jace, Pierce, 3 Wastelands, Ruins, 2 EE, Worm Harvest, Karakas, and Tabernacle), I'm afraid it won't be seeing tournament play from me any time soon. I'd be very interested to see someone give it a spin IRL, however, and to read a report on its performance. It certainly looks both fun and powerful.






I fail to see understand why Unearth would be that important. It's a Reanimate for your 2cc and 3cc creatures, which you could just as easily hardcast. I'd rather run more creatures before running Unearth, since they aren't dead draws if I don't have any creatures in the graveyard.


I don't mean to respond to all of your input individually, for obvious reasons. I do want to clarify this point, however: Unearth is a phenomenal card in my UGB deck. I realize you're not advocating cutting it from UGB, but I want everyone to be clear on just how amazing this card is. It hasn't just won me a game or two; it wins me game after game after game (tonight being a case in point). It has a multitude of functions:

*It streamlines Intuition piles (e.g. Unearth, Witness, Card you want)
*It sets up powerful plays with Witness (recurring both a lost creature and a lost spell--that's two cards for the price of one, and at the cost of at least one of your opponent's, if not two--or setting up chains of recursion with multiple Witnesses)
*It helps to overcome momentum that's lost early on
*At the very least, it cycles

The fact that it's a singleton means that it seldom sees play before it has a valid reanimation target; indeed, it most commonly comes out via an Intuition pile. As a singleton, its power in the UGB deck also clearly (and disproportionately) outweighs any small detriments that it may have (e.g. vulnerability to Mental Misstep). Unearth has been nothing short of degenerate for me, both IRL and in online testing. While it obviously doesn't have a place in the UGW iteration of the deck that you've suggested, anyone would be seriously remiss not to run in the UGB deck.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Sixth out of 30 tonight (there were a few ties in the T8, but I didn't pay attention). I used the same sideboard as last time.

R1: Dragon Stompy - 2-0 - I'm running more basics than usual since I only have the one Bayou, and I fetch my way into them both games. Both games, I promptly Noble Hierarch my way into Natural Order and Progenitus. Both games took a total of six minutes.

R2: B/W Rack-Aggro - 0-2 - My hand gets double-hymned and I can't recover in time to stop Nyxathid. G2, my opponent gets 2 Nyxathids out on his second turn, and then Hymns me the next turn. I manage to plow on for about four more turns, when I get to Pulse the Nyxathids. I'm left with two lands and a Hierarch, and spend the next four turns trying to topdeck a land to cast Natural Order and win (I know that he didn't side in any answers to Progenitus). He kills my creature, and I draw a land and spend the next three turns trying to topdeck a creature for Natural Order. Then he duresses my Order, casts Nyxathid and The Rack, and I fail to draw Deed, Crime/Punishment, Wipe Away, Pulse, or Krosan Grip. So I lose. He ended up coming in first.

R3: Mono-black Reanimator - 2-1 - I lose G1 to early reanimation, which is to be expected (I misplayed by not Forcing Buried Alive, but it wouldn't have made a difference ultimately). I win G2 thanks to Crypt slowing him down until I build a fearsome army. I win G3 thanks to Faerie Macabre and Progenitus.

Got a pack of Future Sight with Glittering Wish for my troubles. I'll be missing the next two tournaments, unfortunately. The field was even more diverse today, with lots of storm combo and even someone with Lands. I'm very happy with the deck's performance these last few weeks, and strongly encourage people to pick it up for their own weekly events.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Sixth out of 30 tonight (there were a few ties in the T8, but I didn't pay attention). I used the same sideboard as last time.

R1: Dragon Stompy - 2-0 - I'm running more basics than usual since I only have the one Bayou, and I fetch my way into them both games. Both games, I promptly Noble Hierarch my way into Natural Order and Progenitus. Both games took a total of six minutes.

R2: B/W Rack-Aggro - 0-2 - My hand gets double-hymned and I can't recover in time to stop Nyxathid. G2, my opponent gets 2 Nyxathids out on his second turn, and then Hymns me the next turn. I manage to plow on for about four more turns, when I get to Pulse the Nyxathids. I'm left with two lands and a Hierarch, and spend the next four turns trying to topdeck a land to cast Natural Order and win (I know that he didn't side in any answers to Progenitus). He kills my creature, and I draw a land and spend the next three turns trying to topdeck a creature for Natural Order. Then he duresses my Order, casts Nyxathid and The Rack, and I fail to draw Deed, Crime/Punishment, Wipe Away, Pulse, or Krosan Grip. So I lose. He ended up coming in first.

R3: Mono-black Reanimator - 2-1 - I lose G1 to early reanimation, which is to be expected (I misplayed by not Forcing Buried Alive, but it wouldn't have made a difference ultimately). I win G2 thanks to Crypt slowing him down until I build a fearsome army. I win G3 thanks to Faerie Macabre and Progenitus.

Got a pack of Future Sight with Glittering Wish for my troubles. I'll be missing the next two tournaments, unfortunately. The field was even more diverse today, with lots of storm combo and even someone with Lands. I'm very happy with the deck's performance these last few weeks, and strongly encourage people to pick it up for their own weekly events.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've updated the primer and the opening posts (also added a few matchups, like Hive Mind and NO RUG, that have cropped up since the last update). I'll not be piloting the deck in a tournament again until next week, but I'm looking forward to it!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

After being away for more than a month, I'm back and played again tonight. As usual, a 3-round tournament with 32 players tonight. I came in 8th. At this point, I'm comfortable asking a mod to move the thread into the Established forum, so I'll be doing that.

Round 1: GU Counter-Top (with, oddly, Wurmcoil Engine) - 2-0. G1, I mull to 4 (didn't have any lands): I draw a Trop and play Hierarch, and he doesn't counter it. He plays Counterbalance, and I let it through. I then draw a Sea, play Goyf. On his turn, I double-Daze his Goyf and the turn after Pulse the Balance. I beat face with Goyf and win. G2, He leads with a Forest and a Hierarch. I do crack a Catacombs and do the same. He then plays another Hierarch. I then cast Shriekmaw and Snuff Out on both Hierarchs, and he spends the rest of the game trying to catch up. I beat face with two Goyfs, and Daze Wurmcoil Engine when he tries to hardcast it (he's at 2 life at that point with no creatures on the board).


Round 2: Mono-B Pox - 1-2. G1 I win handily with an Exalted Kitchen Finks. G2, I keep a hand with 5-lands and 2 other cards. He double Hymns four of my lands. I draw a land, and then he Smallpoxes. G3 sees me take control of the board with a Deed and a ton of lands, while he has a factory. I draw land after land after land and he gets two Bloodghasts who eventually go all the way. I eventually draw a Hierarch, but have no Natural Order to get the Empyrial Archangel I need.

Round 3: BR Goblins - We both mull to 5. I have no lands, but have Hierarch, Misstep, and Goyf. I figure that either way (whether I keep or mull) I'm going to lose this one, so I keep and cross my fingers. I Misstep his T1 Vial. I draw a Trop, play the Hierarch. It survives the turn so I cast Goyf and end up beating face and countering Warren Weirding. G2, I counter his Vial, play a Goyf, counter Warren Weirding, and Waste his Badlands, leaving him with a Mountain and a Port. He ends up playing a Lackey and a War Marshall, but my Goyf is huge thanks to WW and Vial. I beat down, build up my board (Goyf, Goyf, Finks, Witness) and keep two Snuff Outs in hand (with Brainstorm and Natural Order on top of my library thanks to another Brainstorm). I can't cast the Order thanks to Port, but it doesn't matter. I win handily. We proceed to play another three games, all of which I win in similar fashion (well, conceded the fifth since the store was closing, but it looked like I had the upper hand again).

[Goaswerfraiejen]

After being away for more than a month, I'm back and played again tonight. As usual, a 3-round tournament with 32 players tonight. I came in 8th. At this point, I'm comfortable asking a mod to move the thread into the Established forum, so I'll be doing that.

Round 1: GU Counter-Top (with, oddly, Wurmcoil Engine) - 2-0. G1, I mull to 4 (didn't have any lands): I draw a Trop and play Hierarch, and he doesn't counter it. He plays Counterbalance, and I let it through. I then draw a Sea, play Goyf. On his turn, I double-Daze his Goyf and the turn after Pulse the Balance. I beat face with Goyf and win. G2, He leads with a Forest and a Hierarch. I do crack a Catacombs and do the same. He then plays another Hierarch. I then cast Shriekmaw and Snuff Out on both Hierarchs, and he spends the rest of the game trying to catch up. I beat face with two Goyfs, and Daze Wurmcoil Engine when he tries to hardcast it (he's at 2 life at that point with no creatures on the board).


Round 2: Mono-B Pox - 1-2. G1 I win handily with an Exalted Kitchen Finks. G2, I keep a hand with 5-lands and 2 other cards. He double Hymns four of my lands. I draw a land, and then he Smallpoxes. G3 sees me take control of the board with a Deed and a ton of lands, while he has a factory. I draw land after land after land and he gets two Bloodghasts who eventually go all the way. I eventually draw a Hierarch, but have no Natural Order to get the Empyrial Archangel I need.

Round 3: BR Goblins - We both mull to 5. I have no lands, but have Hierarch, Misstep, and Goyf. I figure that either way (whether I keep or mull) I'm going to lose this one, so I keep and cross my fingers. I Misstep his T1 Vial. I draw a Trop, play the Hierarch. It survives the turn so I cast Goyf and end up beating face and countering Warren Weirding. G2, I counter his Vial, play a Goyf, counter Warren Weirding, and Waste his Badlands, leaving him with a Mountain and a Port. He ends up playing a Lackey and a War Marshall, but my Goyf is huge thanks to WW and Vial. I beat down, build up my board (Goyf, Goyf, Finks, Witness) and keep two Snuff Outs in hand (with Brainstorm and Natural Order on top of my library thanks to another Brainstorm). I can't cast the Order thanks to Port, but it doesn't matter. I win handily. We proceed to play another three games, all of which I win in similar fashion (well, conceded the fifth since the store was closing, but it looked like I had the upper hand again).

[Taurelin]

I didn't know that this concept already exists, but I'm currently working on a setup which is not too far away from yours. So I hope you don't mind if I post it here.

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [VI] Natural Order
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
2 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [ON] Smother
2 [MBS] Go for the Throat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [MR] Damping Matrix
SB: 4 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap

As you can see, the differences are basically
- less creatures, but GSZ as a means to get what you want
- less countermagic
- Jace as a powerful "can do everything" tool
- different removal package

I haven't been able to use it in a tourney, but the testing on MWS is not too bad. The MUs I tend to have problems with are Pox/Gate and Maverick (hence the Matrix in the SB, which puts something like a "now it's fair" sign around the neck of most of their key cards).
___________________

There is one thing that I noticed in the primer:


Shriekmaw ... You could even fetch it out with Natural Order.

Actually, you can't. Because NO only finds [I]green creatures.

[Bardo]

Moved to Established.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Thanks Bardo!



I didn't know that this concept already exists, but I'm currently working on a setup which is not too far away from yours. So I hope you don't mind if I post it here.

Of course not! I'm eager to hear your results.




I haven't been able to use it in a tourney, but the testing on MWS is not too bad. The MUs I tend to have problems with are Pox/Gate and Maverick (hence the Matrix in the SB, which puts something like a "now it's fair" sign around the neck of most of their key cards).

Pox is a very tough matchup for me too--but it's not all that common, so I'm OK with that. I'm not entirely sure what more I can do to fix that, except perhaps develop a more consistent sideboarding strategy (bringing in the graveyard removal is worth it, I think, to prevent the creatures from recurring/coming out again). I'm not entirely sure how Damping Matrix helps, however, unless they're running Chimeric Idol. Perhaps it's just a brainfart on my part.





There is one thing that I noticed in the primer:



Actually, you can't. Because NO only finds green creatures.

Thanks for noticing that. I thought I'd eliminated it ages ago, but I guess one instance slipped by me.

[AggroSteve]

i have to say i really like this deck, and i can really understand why unearth would be such a blast

right now i even feel like discarding my team america for this one, as it looks so much more fun


i have a few questions though:

what about dismember or other spotremoval like GftT or smother instead of snuff out

is there an alternative for NO into progenitus?, i havent got these cards and right now i cannot efford them, but i would have the option to build in Dark Dephts, but the problem with Dark Dephts would be that if you want to intuition for the kill you would allready need one of the combopieces in hand or in play, or is there a way/card-combination for intuition so i would not allready need one combo-piece?

thanks in advance

and again really awesome deck, really like it

[Qweerios]

R2: B/W Rack-Aggro - 0-2 - My hand gets double-hymned and I can't recover in time to stop Nyxathid. G2, my opponent gets 2 Nyxathids out on his second turn, and then Hymns me the next turn. I manage to plow on for about four more turns, when I get to Pulse the Nyxathids. I'm left with two lands and a Hierarch, and spend the next four turns trying to topdeck a land to cast Natural Order and win (I know that he didn't side in any answers to Progenitus). He kills my creature, and I draw a land and spend the next three turns trying to topdeck a creature for Natural Order. Then he duresses my Order, casts Nyxathid and The Rack, and I fail to draw Deed, Crime/Punishment, Wipe Away, Pulse, or Krosan Grip. So I lose. He ended up coming in first.

Valet de Coeur, Montreal?

Hey! Vincent D. here. That Nyxathid deck was mine and I did finish first beating ANT 2-1 in the finals. I remember those games when I made you work for that NO. I don't show up to the weeklies at the Valet often but I always bring something weird and top3 (I think I got first place 2 weeks before that with B/R Zombies). I'll try to find you next time I show up!

[AggroSteve]

B/R zombies?, what did the list look like, a friend of mine would like to build a zombie deck, and i would like to help him make a decent one but i could use some help

would you mind sending me a PM with the decklist? as well as the nyxathid deck if you mind^^
i am allways intrested in some funny rogue-looking decks^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Sorry for the late reply. I've been away again.


i have to say i really like this deck, and i can really understand why unearth would be such a blast

right now i even feel like discarding my team america for this one, as it looks so much more fun

Thanks, that's really heartening!



i have a few questions though:

what about dismember or other spotremoval like GftT or smother instead of snuff out

The reason that I love Snuff Out is that it's a free removal spell in a deck that's intensely mana hungry. You're more than welcome to use something else, but Snuff Out has really stood the test of time here. It can also hit artifacts, which is quite relevant with Affinity making its comeback. There's no doubt that sometimes that four life is a huge hit, but the number of games that's affected negatively is vastly inferior to the number of games that were positively affected by Snuff Out.

I have, however, started testing 2x Darblast in the the SB, and it's been pretty amazing so far (see the tournament report below). I'm not sure that I can fit them into the main deck, though. Maybe one at most.



is there an alternative for NO into progenitus?, i havent got these cards and right now i cannot efford them, but i would have the option to build in Dark Dephts, but the problem with Dark Depths would be that if you want to intuition for the kill you would allready need one of the combopieces in hand or in play, or is there a way/card-combination for intuition so i would not allready need one combo-piece?

Dark Depths is an interesting alternative that I haven't tested, but I'd worry about having too many Depths in the deck, and thereby screwing up the land drops, which are already balanced on a razor's edge. I guess you could go with 3x Hexmage and 1x Depths. But NO-Progenitus is really just vastly superior. One option is just to maindeck the Deeds instead/until you can get the cards: that's what the deck looked like before the addition of NO and Progenitus, and it worked very well. Plus, the extra removal is quite handy, and really PWNS Affinity.




Valet de Coeur, Montreal?

Hey! Vincent D. here. That Nyxathid deck was mine and I did finish first beating ANT 2-1 in the finals. I remember those games when I made you work for that NO. I don't show up to the weeklies at the Valet often but I always bring something weird and top3 (I think I got first place 2 weeks before that with B/R Zombies). I'll try to find you next time I show up!


Hey Vincent. You absolutely destroyed me. :)

But then, that's to be expected. Pox/BW Junk decks are a pretty hard matchup for my deck. Hope to see you soon!


[b]Report from last night's tournament:[b]

22 People, and I piloted the deck into a tie for first place. Third after breakers. Won two packs of M12, neither of which contained anything of note. But free packs are free! The only change to the decklist I've been piloting for the last while concerns the SB: -2 Pithing Needle, +2 Darkblast (there have been a ton of NO RUG decks lying around lately, and although that matchup is pretty good, Darkblast is quite helpful).

Round 1 - Rogue GW - 2-0 - These games weren't even close. To be fair, the decks had rather mismatched power-levels. G1 I went to town with double-Goyf (5/6) beatz. G2, a turn 3 Progenitus seals the deal.

Round 2 - The Rock - 2-1 - G1, I clear the board with Snuff Out and recur it with three Witnesses. Triple-Witness beatz end up winning the game. G2, I draw no green mana and end up folding to Stoneforge Mystic and equipment. G3 is essentially a repeat of G1, with triple-Witness beatz (recurring a combination of removal and Force of Will) sealing the deal. We play a G4 for fun, and my Progenitus seals the deal.

Round 3 - Affinity - 2-1 - G1 is extremely close. I'm one mana short of casting Punishment for 0 and winning, and two life short of surviving an 11/2 Ornithopter's attack (I killed one with Snuff Out, but didn't draw a second one) and winning with Punishment. G2, I set up a Goyf wall (replete with two Hierarchs) and follow it up with a Deed. I turtle behind Deed for a while, allowing permanents to build up, then pop it for 0, Snuff Out Myr Enforcer during his attack phase and block the Frogmite, and start smashing face against an empty board with Goyf. G3, my opponent opens with Memnite, Phyrexian Walker, Ornithopter, and casts another Memnite on his next turn. I wipe the board clear with Darblast, and then beat face. Snuff Out takes out the next creature to come into play, and I win handily. We play a G4 for fun, and he dumps his entire hand on his first turn. Darkblast wipes out the creatures and Punishment wips the board, double-Goyf beats face, and then I power out a Progenitus for the win. No surprises here, though: this deck is massively favoured against Affinity. Massively.

[TraxDaMax]

Hi,

I have been goldfishing this deck, since it seemed pretty cool to pick up,
but for some reason, and I can't really see why in the list counting cards, I end up not being able to cast FoW alot.. :/
Doesn't make much sense, but I guess I'm doubting the number of blue cards a little.
Possibly I just had really bad luck or something though.

[AggroSteve]

i think 18 is too few actually, i prefer having at least 20 blue cards to be able to cast force, i had this problem with other blue decks as well, only problem here is what cards to cut and what cards to add to up the blue-card-count

i for my part would try to fit in some ponder as i absolutely love that card as it is a awesome turn 1 play IMO, but i really have no idea what to cut, maybe a maelstrom pulse and something else?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Tied for first again last night (third after breakers... again) with the same list as last time. The start of school took its toll: only 20 players this time. About five of them were piloting Affinity... I may just exchange the two MD Pulses for two Deeds as a (purely) metagame decision next time. We'll see.


R1 - Affinity - 2-1: G1 is over quite quickly: Punishment for 0 wipes the board and a huge Goyf swings home. G2 comes to a 20-minute standstill about ten minutes in thanks to his Etched Champion. I keep returning and cycling Unearth and Brainstorm in the hopes of drawing any piece of removal (I have 13 pieces for this game and have seen none all game; I've also been Extirpated three times (none of it removal), so my deck is quite thin). Recurring Kitchen Finks bring me back from the brink of death (5 life with just a Hierarch in play, versus his Champion, Frogmite, and something else) to stall-worthy territory (I end up recurring it twice more and casting a second, for a total of 8 life gained). He topdecks Cranial Plating and I'm one life short of surviving the Champion. Great game. G3 is also over quite quickly (good thing, too: there were just 5 minutes left in the round): I Deed everything on the board, and proceed to recur it several times and finally resolve Progenitus.


R2 - Combo Elves - 2-0: G1 is over quite quickly too: he has three mana, a Visionary, a Heritage Druid, and a Wirewood Symbiote. He casts Summoner's Pact for Priest of Titania, which he casts. I allow it to resolve, end the turn by Snuffing Out the Symbiote, and then Snuffing Out the Priest (yay, free removal!). During my turn, I draw another piece of removal and destroy the Druid for fun. Anyway, he can't pay Pact's upkeep cost. G2 is a little more drawn out; I have a Deed, Stronghold, and Witness in play (along with five other sources of mana), and so recur Deed five or six times and, in combinaton with Snuff Out and Force of Will, that allows me to survive three Glimpses. I eventually build up enough board presence to win.


R3 - Rogue RG Tokens/Combo - 2-0: G1 is once again over quite quickly--T3 Progenitus FTW. G2 also ends fairly quickly, although it involves me drawing and casting a couple Snuff Outs and Pernicious Deed. We played two more for fun (I didn't really understand how the deck worked): he won the next game with some early and massive tokens (thanks to some red enchantment), and then removal won me the fourth.



Hi,

I have been goldfishing this deck, since it seemed pretty cool to pick up,
but for some reason, and I can't really see why in the list counting cards, I end up not being able to cast FoW alot.. :/
Doesn't make much sense, but I guess I'm doubting the number of blue cards a little.
Possibly I just had really bad luck or something though.

Thanks for your interest! While there are definitely times when that happens since the deck does have a fairly low blue count, and it's quite tightly packed. In my experience (I have quite literally played thousands of games with the deck) it's very infrequent though, and Witness goes a long way to ensuring that it doesn't happen. To be fair, however, you're often faced with the choice of pitching something good or allowing something to resolve, and that's where familiarity with the deck (and what you're up against) comes into play.



i think 18 is too few actually, i prefer having at least 20 blue cards to be able to cast force, i had this problem with other blue decks as well, only problem here is what cards to cut and what cards to add to up the blue-card-count

i for my part would try to fit in some ponder as i absolutely love that card as it is a awesome turn 1 play IMO, but i really have no idea what to cut, maybe a maelstrom pulse and something else?


IMO there's really nothing to cut on either front. You could perhaps try getting away with Phyrexian Metamorph for Kitchen Finks, but the loss of the Finks is going to sting: they complement the rest of the deck extremely well, whereas Metamorph doesn't necessarily. I suppose it's worth a try, though: the loss of the life gain may just be balanced out by the gain of some massive creature in the opponent's deck/an extra Goyf/Hierarch/whatever. I'd be very interested to hear your results on that front.

As for Ponder... I really don't think there's room. Previous incarnations of the deck ran it (and preferred it to Brainstorm), but I just can't see where to fit it now. And really, on the first turn, Hierarch is the better play anyway (because it speeds our development, but also because Ponder, like Brainstorm, becomes exponentially better as the game goes on). Cutting a Pulse is a serious mistake: it leaves you exponentially more vulnerable because it scuppers the different Intuition piles that you can form with three. Similarly, cutting a card willy-nilly is likely to have the same effect. If you're deadset on trying it, then perhaps three could be made to fit into Intuition's slot. The downside, of course, is that the deck then loses a really fantastic tutor that sets up a massive number of plays in exchange for a fantastic cantrip that will hopefully get lucky but gets countered by Mental Misstep. Again, feel free to try it and let me know how it goes. Thanks again for the interest.

[AggroSteve]

i will be trying to put up a list with hexmage dephts combo, and i will probably cut the hierarchs in that case simply because the manadevelopement of the deck will not absolutely require a hierarch for a turn 3 NO (specially since i will be playing a different combo :P)

in place of hierarch i will be playing a bit more lands and probably a few ponder, if i have the place to fit them in

right now my thoughts came up with a list somewhat like this:


20-21 lands (i prefer having more lands than manadorks, probably due to playstyle as well)
lands included are: 1 wasteland, 1 volrath's stronghold, 1-2 dark dephts, 1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

creatures

4x tarmogoyf
3x eternal witness
3x vampire hexmage
2x kitchen finks
1x shriekmaw

spells

4x brainstorm
2x ponder
4x mental misstep
3x daze
4x force of will
3x intuition
1x unearth
1x life from the loam
1x sword of light and shadow (would be awesome as intuition target together with witness and unearth)
3x snuff out (going with this one initially, and later trying something else as well)
3x maelstrom pulse / pernicious deed (i probably would prefer deed, or maybe some combination of engineered explosives and crime/punishment or even putrefy as my hexmages can allready take care of planeswalker,.... will have to test every option here)

would be 61 card (with 20 lands - only 1 dark dephts)

my sideboard probably would differ greatly from yours

one thing i was allways wondering... why do you have chalice of the void in your sideboard, what do you board them against, and what do you take out?

@ Goaswerfraiejen:
what are your thoughts on the list i will going to build? any suggestions, critique?, i want to know all your thoughts on it, since i would think your are the grandmaster of this deck^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So sorry for the late reply. As the term begins again, and as I start teaching again, my free time dwindles. Plus--and more importantly--I was without internet for the past couple of weeks.

First, just wanted to say that I played in the weekly tournament again. I came 11/25 this time, my worst finish yet--quite a few people went 3-0 (six, I think), and I went 2-1, so... yeah. The deck was the same as usual, but I exchanged the two Pulses for the SB Deeds in anticipation of more Affinity and Elves. Briefer report than usual:

R1 - Cloudpost - 2-1: I lost G1 handily, won G2 easily with a turn three Progenitus, and G3 dragged on for a while--which is bad, since Cloudpost gets exponentially stronger as the game goes on. I was ultimately unable to deal with an indestructible Eldrazi.

R2 - Rogue UR Control - 2-0: I won these games handily. The first few turns were counter-wars, and at one point by turn two we'd collectively played four Missteps and three FoWs. But my opponent had no mid-game juice, so I ended up just playing creatures and winning.

R3 - GW Maverick - 2-0: My opponent was mana-screwed G1, so that was too bad. G2 I won quite easily with a fourth-turn Progenitus. We went on to play three more, of which my opponent won two (I was manascrewed myself one game). On the whole, however, I felt completely in control, and Progenitus was always lurking around a corner to save me if things were starting to look rough.


i will be trying to put up a list with hexmage dephts combo, and i will probably cut the hierarchs in that case simply because the manadevelopement of the deck will not absolutely require a hierarch for a turn 3 NO (specially since i will be playing a different combo :P)

in place of hierarch i will be playing a bit more lands and probably a few ponder, if i have the place to fit them in

Sounds good. You could always try BoP, too, but more lands is definitely a good idea--especially since Depths eats up a couple slots. Your list looks pretty solid to me.




one thing i was allways wondering... why do you have chalice of the void in your sideboard, what do you board them against, and what do you take out?

Chalice is a nice catch-all against combo (zero is helpful, while one is backbreaking) that doubles as effective Burn hate (set at one, obviously, it cripples Burn). It also works well against Zoo, but it's kind of overkill in that matchup, since the removal does such a great job on its own. I do occasionally like to take out Snuff Out for it, so as to help negate the Zoo player's burn plan.

Against combo and Burn, I just side out my removal for it (Snuff Out first, Pulse last).



@ Goaswerfraiejen:
what are your thoughts on the list i will going to build? any suggestions, critique?, i want to know all your thoughts on it, since i would think your are the grandmaster of this deck^^

Your compliments are greatly appreciated. ^^

I think that the Hexmage combo has real potential. One advantage is that Planeswalkers cease to be such a concern, which frees up some resources. I wonder if playing Phyrexian Metamorph might open up some more interesting avenues for the deck than Kitchen Finks can, however. I'm definitely very curious to hear how it's working out for you.


One last thing before I go... I'm really looking forward to being able to play Skaab Ruinator (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123667&d=1315281856). I think that this deck is perfect for it... not only do I frequently have three creatures to feed it (especially as games drag on, which is when this card shines), but with Intuition, Unearth, and the ability to dredge, this deck is frequently in a position to really abuse it. I will start by playing a single copy and see where it goes (probably a 1-1 split with Finks; one janky alternative would be Golgari Brownscale, whose dredge could also help). At any rate, the ability to easily tutor up and play such a huge creature in the mid and late games is amazing for this deck. It's also a fantastic answer to Perish.

[AggroSteve]

when i first read skaab ruinator i thought it was another tombstalker, cause i misread it and missed the word creature^^

anyway he sounds quite nice, specially for my version, as i have a it a bit easier to get creatures in the grave, but anyway, one or two creatures are surely allways in our grave, so tutoring with intuition for one skaab ruinator and maybe 2 other creatures like hexmage which i can easily get into my grave, i get a 5/6 flying out of it, well not as strong as a 20/20, but not as conditional as well, and the fact that only white removal is really effective against him, gives him another thumps up, well just like for the 20/20 ^^
i really like him and he would definitely be awesome since we can target him with unearth as well and he would give the deck more power for the tempogame we can also run, as he allmost works like tombstalker (which i also thought of including at some point but not being able to use unearth on him made him a no-go)

wow on second thought he would allmost be awesome with first intuition pile of witness, unearth and Skaap Ruinator (oh damn no, by then you will not have enough creatures in grave, so forget this one)

one thing i was thinking about in my list is the one of Sword of Light and Shadow

what are your thoughts on it?

a friend of mine was positively thrilled by the list i showed him, and found intuition to be insanely good with witness, unearth, loam, wasteland
that friend of mine did not like the idea of the sword of light and shadow though, and i have to admit, i do not have that many 1cmc spells in the deck, and he said he would think the 3rd ponder would be of better use
now i am a bit sceptical, as i have to say i really like ponder 1st turn, and i dislike playing brainstorm on 1st turn, because it gets so much stronger as the game goes on, so having a 3rd ponder wouldn't be a bad idea
i am thinking of replacing snuff out for GftT just because it can hit confidant and tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor (a friend of mine runs The Gate), and snuff out just sucks against black creatures, just like shriekmaw does

another card i was thinking about was ancestral visions, did you try that card allready, lately it gets so much play and that card is actually quite powerfull as well, only problem is that later in the game it sucks (so i think i will prefer ponder, ergo cardselection over cardadvantage)

what do you think about it

soon the list will be complete, only cards missing are the intuitions and maelstrom pulse, but i would probably run deed over it anyway (and the real duals :(, but i will get them as i get some more money), and than i will tell you everything i found out with my list with testings, in the meantime i have to prox the for testings (if i got time, allready studying for university again, even if it does not start until oktober)

[The Treefolk Master]

Yesterday, I acquired my first non-blue dual land, a Bayou! I'm no 2 Bayous from the standarized deck list. Weeeeeeh!

How has Daze been testing for you? It's been a bit underwhelming for me sadly :(, although I don't have SO many games under my belt. Yet.

[AggroSteve]

mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

[AggroSteve]

mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

[The Treefolk Master]

The deck played Ponder in the pre-Misstep era, so we could start by trying that out.

Goblins are making a comeback, so I don't think Daze is the way to go.

Therefore, at first I'll be testing:

-3 Misstep :(
+2 Ponder

Going down to 60 cards.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Yesterday, I acquired my first non-blue dual land, a Bayou! I'm no 2 Bayous from the standarized deck list. Weeeeeeh!

How has Daze been testing for you? It's been a bit underwhelming for me sadly :(, although I don't have SO many games under my belt. Yet.

Congrats! Daze is, power-wise, one of the weaker cards in the deck, but it's also a pretty necessary evil. It was especially important versus combo pre-MM, and now that MM is banned and the format has sped up, Daze becomes that much more important again: it's an easy answer to T1 plays, be they Vial, Lackey, Brainstorm, or whatever. It's also half-decent (but still entirely irrelevant, like every other deck) against High Tide, since it usually eats an island and so messes with combat math.


mental misstep got banned!!!

so what would the list have to change to still be viable

IMO misstep was the best counter in the format (at least fo a while^^) so losing it could seriously hurt this deck as well as any other blue deck using it

adding 4th daze and some spell snares or spell pierces could be a possible answer, but the meta will definitely shift to faster aggro and to faster combo, so i really do not know what will happen with this deck, as i got really not much expierience with it

what do you guys think??

Well, the deck was certainly viable pre-MM, but it did struggle at times with the speed of the format. IIRC, I dropped Ponder for MM; at this point, the only viable solution seems to be to replace MM with Spell Pierce. I think I'll just MD 3 instead of upping Daze to 4. I may also cut Skaab Ruinator from 2 to 1, and thereby make room for another counterspell of some sort; I don't know yet, I haven't had enough time to re-familiarize myself with the speed of the format (Ruinator is obviously less awesome in a very fast environment, but could be awesome if Countertop sees a resurgence--and I still think it's worth having as at least a 1-of).



The deck played Ponder in the pre-Misstep era, so we could start by trying that out.

Goblins are making a comeback, so I don't think Daze is the way to go.

Therefore, at first I'll be testing:

-3 Misstep :(
+2 Ponder

Going down to 60 cards.

Well, Daze is actually decent against Goblins, since it allows us to save Snuff Out and Force of Will for things other than Lackeys and Vials, although I do ultimately side it out for more removal. You definitely won't go wrong with Ponder, but it may be possible for us to find a more aggressive option out there somewhere instead. Maybe the way to go is to replace Daze with Spell Pierce or Spell Snare altogether, and to find something else for MM (perhaps another creature or control element)... I'm not entirely sure. Two thoughts, however:

*Even if NO RUG goes down in popularity, Darkblast is still a handy tool against Goblins and UW (but not if Counterbalance comes back).

*Skaab Ruinator is very good against Goblins. It's slow, but you're guaranteed to be able to cast it. On the other hand, Kitchen Finks is also very good against Goblins, especially since it can still block Piledriver after an Incinerator.

I'll have to give things a big think again. I guess the next weekly tournament will be an important testing ground; too bad, I kinda wanted to play Zoo again at some point. Let me know your own thoughts.

[AggroSteve]

i think i will be trying the following as i am allready running 2 ponder

-4 misstep :(
+3 spell snare
+1 ponder

maybe something like this

hopefully it will work fine^^, though i will miss mental misstep

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Part of the problem is that Natural Order suddenly becomes more vulnerable to cards like Spell Pierce, which is why I'm concerned about Spell Snare, since it won't stop opposing countermagic. But whatever, we'll see.

I should have added to the post above: Suddenly, missing a Bayou or two becomes less of a big deal, I think. Just run an extra basic or two (Forest, followed by Swamp) instead. At least it will help dodge Goblins' control elements a little.

[AggroSteve]

my point in using spell snare was, that i think it is the counter coming the nearest to Mental Misstep, being good on the draw, countering the most important spells in legacy (tarmogoyf, dark confidant, stoneforge mystic, counterbalance if it comes back, goblin piledriver as well^^, sylvan library which has seen more and more play lately, and tons of other very good stuff)

i think the question will be if spell snare > spell pierce, or the other way around, which i think will initially depend on your meta, until we adapt again to the metashift and get a more refined list

with my list i will probably have less to think about spell spierce since i am not using natural order, but intuition may suffer a bit
and thanks to my 2/1 first striker, i may not even have such a bad goblin-matchup, but zoo probably will make me cry a bit

[AggroSteve]

i was thinking more and more about spell snare, it would be both awesome on the play and on the draw

ok here to what i was thinking

on the play:

we can 1st turn ponder/hierarch + daze/force of will (lest assume we use daze)
we can 2nd turn spell snare (if previously used hierarch even brainstorm for it)

on the draw: 1st turn spell snare countering their major threat (confidant, SFM, Hymn, ......), thus leaving us with a better position

so in practice we can still do allmost the same things with spell snare compared to Mental Misstep, just with less lifeloss, but a minor tempoloss compared to MM

so for now i will definitely use spell snare over spell pierce as it handles more turn 2 plays than spell pierce
but the statement from my previous post of spell snare vs. spell pierce will be a meta-decision will still apply, i think spell snare would probably be better in a stronger aggro-midrange meta, and spell pierce will be stronger in a midrange-control-combo meta

so i think your MD decision for your countersuite will come to a) preference and b) your meta

what do you guys think?

[AggroSteve]

i was thinking more and more about spell snare, it would be both awesome on the play and on the draw

ok here to what i was thinking

on the play:

we can 1st turn ponder/hierarch + daze/force of will (lest assume we use daze)
we can 2nd turn spell snare (if previously used hierarch even brainstorm for it)

on the draw: 1st turn spell snare countering their major threat (confidant, SFM, Hymn, ......), thus leaving us with a better position

so in practice we can still do allmost the same things with spell snare compared to Mental Misstep, just with less lifeloss, but a minor tempoloss compared to MM

so for now i will definitely use spell snare over spell pierce as it handles more turn 2 plays than spell pierce
but the statement from my previous post of spell snare vs. spell pierce will be a meta-decision will still apply, i think spell snare would probably be better in a stronger aggro-midrange meta, and spell pierce will be stronger in a midrange-control-combo meta

so i think your MD decision for your countersuite will come to a) preference and b) your meta

what do you guys think?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This is a tad janky, but I wonder if Condescend might be an option. It does roll Scry into a counterspell, which could be handy...

[AggroSteve]

i allways found condescend to be a bit subpar but not bad, if we add more ponder to the deck like in pre-MM-meta then i do not think condescend would be needed anymore
but man i really love spell snare from initial testings

only thing i miss is that my 20/20 is not that easily protectable anymore without MM, funny thing about that is that even if my marit lage token gets removed or sacrificed or bounced or whatever and does not immediatly kill, thanks to intuition, i will probalbly have a pile of witness and unearth in the yard and then i can just switch to unearthing a lot of beats in 1 turn^^, so cool

i would think my list is playing a lot more tempoish than yours, and i really love having daze, spell snare, and a goyf + maybe snuff out on my starting hand on the play, and even on the draw it is still fine

[AggroSteve]

i allways found condescend to be a bit subpar but not bad, if we add more ponder to the deck like in pre-MM-meta then i do not think condescend would be needed anymore
but man i really love spell snare from initial testings

only thing i miss is that my 20/20 is not that easily protectable anymore without MM

i would think my list is playing a lot more tempoish than yours, and i really love having daze, spell snare, and a goyf + maybe snuff out on my starting hand on the play, and even on the draw it is still fine

[The Treefolk Master]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

[AggroSteve]

LOL

i really love this deck as well, it is the most fun-to-play-deck i ever had^^

actually i love ponder as well, currently running only 2 though because i felt like i needed A) some accel now with the faster format, and B) something so ensure i get my threats out once i got control of the board (which is surprisingly easy with witness + snuff out, even if it costs a lot of life)
so i added 3 green sun's zenith (do not have any noble hierarchs, and they do the job as well, just not wastelandproof) and i immideately fell for them

green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won

some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks

with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

my list right now is the following

19 land (including 1 wasteland, 1 stronghold, 1 dark dephts, 1 dryad arbor)

4 tarmogoyf
3 eternal witness
2 kitchen finks
2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
1 fleshbag marauder/shriekmaw (i prefer marauder for reason of unearth-able)

3 snuff out
2 pernicious deed
3 green sun's zenith (going to 4 when i get my 4th)
3 intuition

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 daze
3 spell snare
4 force of will

in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play
-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)
-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)
- the hybrid style of this deck suits my quite well, having both a tempo-game, and a board controll-game is difficult to board against, allthough i have to say that a few times a random tormods crypt ruined my day, by crypting away the removal i needed to witness)
- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness
- against wastelands its often hard to get BB for the vampire hexmages, which makes this combo more vulnerable then NO into progenitus

- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

sorry for the extremely long post, but i wanted to get rid of my thoughts (otherwise i have a hard time falling asleep^^)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Ponder was always fantastic--there was a point where I ran 4 Ponder an 3 Brainstorm, despite the protests, since Ponder was so much more important to hit lands early on (at the time).



Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

I haven't. My inclination is to say that it's a tad slow and win-more for our purposes. Feel free to try it and report back, though!



Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

=)






green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won



Yeah, it's good. The question was whether it was worth making room for some GSZs and Dryads Arbor given the prevalence of Wasteland, and the fact that this deck's mana development is a tad fragile. In the end, I decided that Noble Hierarch was a much safer plan overall. Without the NO package, however, I can see those extra slots being well-used by GSZ.



some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks


Yeah, that's part of why Snuff Out is just so good here. The same plays are fairly frequent with Noble Hierarch as well, except that Finks/Goyf hits for one more thanks to exalted.




with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

If you have the slots, Unearth is a great way to use them.



i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

If you ever manage to get Natural Orders, it's definitely the better combo. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the alternative, however. I would be very hesitant to go below 2-3 Hexmages, however, since it's quite easy to lose (or use) one in the normal course of the game, especially to StP and PtE.



2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)


How come? GSZ can't fetch it...





in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play


Agreed. Without Hierarch, even the NO version just can't function reliably.



-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)

Yup!




-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)

Yeah... who needs Snapcaster Mage when we have Eternal Witness?



- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness

Yeah, 18 works just fine for me.



- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

Yeah, you should avoid 3-of-a-kind as much as you can, although sometimes it's a necessary evil. I suspect it's a lot easier and faster to set up the combo piles with NO, since I don't need to rely on a specific creature and land.




In other news, I've been testing both Phyrexian Metamorph and Skaab Ruinator in the Kitchen Finks slot. Both are great, although there are a number of times when I wished I had Finks instead (for the lifegain). I think that one Skaab Ruinator is probably the highest number the deck can support, though, since I've been getting them stuck in my hand when I run two, and it dilutes my ability to cast NO. Next up for testing: 1 Metamorph + 1 Ruinator, and then after that, 2 Scavenging Ooze (which at least can gain life and present a serious threat, although I'm likely to miss Persist). Persist and the lifegain are just a really handy combination, and helps to shore up multiple weaknesses. I suspect Kitchen Finks is still the best card for that slot.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've tested Ponder and they been incredible. I'm never sad to see Ponder, it's always a live draw, and can get us out of rough situations/pull ahead with incredible ease. I find myself Witnessing into Ponder to see 3 cards many times.

Ponder was always fantastic--there was a point where I ran 4 Ponder an 3 Brainstorm, despite the protests, since Ponder was so much more important to hit lands early on (at the time).



Have you tried Recurring Nightmare here? It seems a tad win-more, but it just sounds soooooo gooood, you drop it into play, and if you have a Witness in play you just won the game... I might test it, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.

I haven't. My inclination is to say that it's a tad slow and win-more for our purposes. Feel free to try it and report back, though!



Really digging the deck so far, I just love the inevitability and recurrability, it reminds me a LOT of It's The Fear, but with the ability to, you know, win 2 games in less than 10 hours...

=)






green sus's zenith is simply amazing in this deck, allmost every game startet with a zenith into arbor an was not facing wastelands i won



Yeah, it's good. The question was whether it was worth making room for some GSZs and Dryads Arbor given the prevalence of Wasteland, and the fact that this deck's mana development is a tad fragile. In the end, I decided that Noble Hierarch was a much safer plan overall. Without the NO package, however, I can see those extra slots being well-used by GSZ.



some really nasty play last time i played was:

1st turn: zenith into arbor
2nd turn: snuff out > witness > snuff out
3rd turn: kitchen finks
4th turn: zenith into kitchen finks


Yeah, that's part of why Snuff Out is just so good here. The same plays are fairly frequent with Noble Hierarch as well, except that Finks/Goyf hits for one more thanks to exalted.




with green sun zenith even kitchen finks, which were the least outstanding creature in my deck, get a lot more value
also unearth has been so amazing for me that i wanted a 2nd one in the list

If you have the slots, Unearth is a great way to use them.



i actually like green sun zenith to an extend that i was thinking of cutting the dark dephts combo in my list completely, but noticed that i will get the combo started only with intuition, and i noticed that getting the combo going by intuition the minimum amount of hexmages and Dark dephts is both 1, since the combo by intuition will allways involve a keyspell you allready have in hand.

If you ever manage to get Natural Orders, it's definitely the better combo. I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of the alternative, however. I would be very hesitant to go below 2-3 Hexmages, however, since it's quite easy to lose (or use) one in the normal course of the game, especially to StP and PtE.



2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)


How come? GSZ can't fetch it...





in my testings i noticed the following:

-accel for this deck is absolutely neccessary for competitive play


Agreed. Without Hierarch, even the NO version just can't function reliably.



-witness + unearth is just sick (first deeding the board and then unearthing 2 witness + 1 tarmogoyf wins lots of games)

Yup!




-witnessing for counters just used for the tempoplay is way to awesome (never used witness in a blue deck till now, and its so fun, and allmost unfair^^)

Yeah... who needs Snapcaster Mage when we have Eternal Witness?



- thanks to witness a bluecount of 18+ (in my case 19) is enought to ensure force of wills effectiveness

Yeah, 18 works just fine for me.



- i dislike using intuition for 3-of-a-kind, because it reduces the percentages of getting another one massivly, and going "witness-unearth-card you want" will probably hurt the least, because either you get the card you need immideately or you get a blocker which gives you the card you need. For this reason i added a 2nd unearth, and because the fastest way to get the 20/20 out involves a unearth (preferably in your hand)

Yeah, you should avoid 3-of-a-kind as much as you can, although sometimes it's a necessary evil. I suspect it's a lot easier and faster to set up the combo piles with NO, since I don't need to rely on a specific creature and land.




In other news, I've been testing both Phyrexian Metamorph and Skaab Ruinator in the Kitchen Finks slot. Both are great, although there are a number of times when I wished I had Finks instead (for the lifegain). I think that one Skaab Ruinator is probably the highest number the deck can support, though, since I've been getting them stuck in my hand when I run two, and it dilutes my ability to cast NO. Next up for testing: 1 Metamorph + 1 Ruinator, and then after that, 2 Scavenging Ooze (which at least can gain life and present a serious threat, although I'm likely to miss Persist). Persist and the lifegain are just a really handy combination, and helps to shore up multiple weaknesses. I suspect Kitchen Finks is still the best card for that slot.

[AggroSteve]

on the matter GSZ vs. noble hierarch:

i believe GSZ is stronger, i tested both for a while (proxys^^), and found hierarch to be good but i actually prefer having the creature i want than having a creature with exalted
plus GSZ even if the accel is not wastelandproof it gives a lot more options, such as running hate in the main, in form of a scavenging ooze, which would be an additional way to offset the lifeloss from snuff out, plus spore frog for example as a defense against progenitus, or anything that would deal lots of damage in one turn (together with stronghold you can stall the game forever)

i will probably run 1 ooze instead of the 4th tarmogoyf, since they are comparable in size and with GSZ i can fetch it if need be


2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

as i allready said, i was thinking of cutting the combo completely when i realized that i only need a singleton of the vampire and the land

since it is allmost only possible to establish the combo via intuition and allmost every intuitionpile to get the combo going had 1 hexmage and 1 dark dephts in it + card to get either one of those two back, and another card in hand to get the other one back, it does not really matter if i have 2 vampire + 1 unearth in the deck or 2 unearth + 1 vampire

and actually i prefer a 2nd unearth over the hexmage, as i thas more use overall for the deck

here some examples for intuitionpiles to get the combo going, mostly in the following turn:

card in hand: witness -> DD/Loam/Hexmage
Dark Dephts -> Witness/Unearth/Hexmage or Unearth/Unearth/Hexmage
Hexmage -> Witness/Loam/DD
Loam -> DD/Hexmage/Volrath's Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold -> Witness/Hexmage/DD
Unearth -> Witness/Hexmage/DD or Loam/Hexmage/DD

as you can see allmost every intuition pile will search exactly for both hexmage and dark dephts, and a way to get them back, depending on what we allready have in hand

interesting here is that the most efficient pile is with unearth allready in hand into loam/hexmage/DD, and it is the fastest pile as well only needing 3 manasources to get it going, and not even BB for hexmage
all the other piles are a bit slower needing between 4 to 6 mana (acceptable to not so good), or if volrath's stronghold is involved maybe even needing a 2nd turn (even worse)
in addiction to being a mana/time-intensive combo comes the fact that it is easily disruptable if expected, hence i dot want to use more slots than the bare minimum to the combo, and with 2 slots the combo does really not need much space for the occasional blowout

the interesting thing about this combo might be exactly the conditionality of your hand, enabling a extremely fast combo which allmost immideately wins games, but if the hand you have would only provide a slower combo, you probably should avoid it, as dedicating up to 2 turns for the combo could spell doom for you

therefor if anyone wants to try the Hexmage-Combo instead of Natural Order i would reccomend only using the underlined comboattempts if you do not have an abundance of mana at your disposal

again i posted a incredibly long post, but i want you all to know of my approach to the deck, and hope you appreciate it^^

[AggroSteve]

on the matter GSZ vs. noble hierarch:

i believe GSZ is stronger, i tested both for a while (proxys^^), and found hierarch to be good but i actually prefer having the creature i want than having a creature with exalted
plus GSZ even if the accel is not wastelandproof it gives a lot more options, such as running hate in the main, in form of a scavenging ooze, which would be an additional way to offset the lifeloss from snuff out, plus spore frog for example as a defense against progenitus, or anything that would deal lots of damage in one turn (together with stronghold you can stall the game forever)

i will probably run 1 ooze instead of the 4th tarmogoyf, since they are comparable in size and with GSZ i can fetch it if need be


2 vampire hexmage (going to 1 when i get my 4th GSZ)
How come? GSZ can't fetch it...

as i allready said, i was thinking of cutting the combo completely when i realized that i only need a singleton of the vampire and the land

since it is allmost only possible to establish the combo via intuition and allmost every intuitionpile to get the combo going had 1 hexmage and 1 dark dephts in it + card to get either one of those two back, and another card in hand to get the other one back, it does not really matter if i have 2 vampire + 1 unearth in the deck or 2 unearth + 1 vampire

and actually i prefer a 2nd unearth over the hexmage, as i thas more use overall for the deck

here some examples for intuitionpiles to get the combo going, mostly in the following turn:

card in hand -> intuitionpile

witness -> DD/Loam/Hexmage
Dark Dephts -> Witness/Unearth/Hexmage or Unearth/Unearth/Hexmage
Hexmage -> Witness/Loam/DD
Loam -> DD/Hexmage/Volrath's Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold -> Witness/Hexmage/DD
Unearth -> Witness/Hexmage/DD or Loam/Hexmage/DD

as you can see allmost every intuition pile will search exactly for both hexmage and dark dephts, and a way to get them back, depending on what we allready have in hand

interesting here is that the most efficient pile is with unearth allready in hand into loam/hexmage/DD, and it is the fastest pile as well only needing 3 manasources to get it going, and not even BB for hexmage
all the other piles are a bit slower needing between 4 to 6 mana (acceptable to not so good), or if volrath's stronghold is involved maybe even needing a 2nd turn (even worse)
in addiction to being a mana/time-intensive combo comes the fact that it is easily disruptable if expected, hence i dot want to use more slots than the bare minimum to the combo, and with 2 slots the combo does really not need much space for the occasional blowout

the interesting thing about this combo might be exactly the conditionality of your hand, enabling a extremely fast combo which allmost immideately wins games, but if the hand you have would only provide a slower combo, you probably should avoid it, as dedicating up to 2 turns for the combo could spell doom for you

therefor if anyone wants to try the Hexmage-Combo instead of Natural Order i would recommend only using the underlined comboattempts if you do not have an abundance of mana at your disposal

again i posted a incredibly long post, but i want you all to know of my approach to the deck, and hope you appreciate it^^

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Just wanted to say that I've been running 2x Scavenging Ooze (rather than the Finks) in testing recently, and I absolutely love them. While lack of Persist is a small downside, the ability to keep one mana open on turn two (for Pierce or Snare) and to maindeck graveyard hate is quite relevant. I have not yet tried 1x Ooze and 1x Metamorph, or 1x Ooze and 1x Ruinator; these might still be workable combinations. I've been running Spell Snare in Misstep's place, but I'm not convinced I wouldn't prefer Spell Pierce. If I don't get my Pierces and my other Ooze by Thursday's weekly tournament, I'll just test something else instead (probably a Ruinator and maybe just 2x GSZ and 1x Dryad Arbor or something).

[AggroSteve]

GSZ is really awesome in this deck, we may not have a lot of hatebears as maverick for example but being able to accelerate, and getting the creature you want/need in your situation is really nice

getting gravehate, recursion (if needed into removal), a beater, or life is not bad at all, speciall life since it offsets snuff outs cost

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, my cards arrived in time. I tied for 4th (9th after breakers) out of 19. I played 2 Oozes, with 3 Pierces and 3 Deeds main (3 Pulses in the board).

I lost 2-1 to RBW aggro-control (drew land after land G2), beat MUC 2-0 (thanks to Pierce and an Ooze that shrank the Tarmogoyf he stole and ultimately grew way bigger than it), and then "beat" WUG Stoneblade (he conceded both games instead of dropping).

I can definitely say that Spell Pierce is amazing--I used it extensively in all four games I played. Simlarly, Ooze is responsible for winning two of those games single-handedly. It's pretty awesome.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I haven't had a chance to play the deck in a local tournament in a couple months due to work. One day in the near future, however...!

One thing: now that Delver is wandering around, I think it's worth swapping Maelstrom Pulse for Pernicious Deed again. I've been beating the Delver decks left and right, especially post-board when I also gain access to Chalice @ 1 (I side out the Natural Order plan).

Also, I no longer seem capable of losing 2/3 to Dredge. Thanks, Scavenging Ooze! You're amazing!

[spartan117]

@Goaswerfraiejen: Your wonderful primer actually got me really interested in playing the deck (which I find simply amazing). :smile:

I'd like to see your most recent decklist if you care to share it, I really like the idea of skaab ruinator coming out of nowhere and its being dismember-proof. The deck actually seems quite complex and I'd like to test its latest version for some weeks before taking it to a tournament knowing its in&outs :wink:

Thanks for your attention!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen: Your wonderful primer actually got me really interested in playing the deck (which I find simply amazing). :smile:

I'd like to see your most recent decklist if you care to share it, I really like the idea of skaab ruinator coming out of nowhere and its being dismember-proof. The deck actually seems quite complex and I'd like to test its latest version for some weeks before taking it to a tournament knowing its in&outs :wink:

Thanks for your attention!

Thanks for your interest! Unfortunately, I have not been able to make Skaab Ruinator work very well yet, which is really too bad. It's probably best as a one-of, but I haven't found the ideal slot to cut for it yet. Maybe a Daze, maybe a Witness (*cringe*). Intuition? Sideboard singleton? I'm really not sure. I also haven't tested how it works with Ooze; that might be a non-starter. I just dunno at this point.

My current list (following the swap I recommended just above) is as follows:

Lands (18)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland


Creatures (15)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus


Spells (28)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Darkblast

[spartan117]

@Goaswerfraiejen: thanks for sharing the decklist :smile:

I'd like to ask you a few questions about some deck choices.

1) The bluecount for FoW is really at the minimum (17 including FoW itself + progenitus, which I'd obviosly prefer not to pitch if possible). Do you ever find yourself lacking a blue spell to pitch to FoW in a critical stage of the game? I know witness helps you having the right card in hand and basically ups you bluecount if you had previously cast a brainstorm/pierce/daze, but we also have to keep in mind that witness is still a CC3 and a starting hand such as land-hierarch-land is happening only 40% of the games.

2) I've been playing Canadian Threshold with great success over the last 3 years, and I perfectly know that UBG decks have some issues in dealing with a resolved mongoose (as you also stated in your primer). We obviously have a few ways to stop the shrouded green creature, but those solutions are mana intensive (pernicious deed) or at cc2 (tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze -> amazing vs thresh), basically the perfect target for opposing spell snares . The positive aspect is that nimble mongoose requires 3-4-5 turns to reach threshold and that works in our favor, giving us the time needed to set up a defense plan. But how do we deal with a resolved delver on turn1? I mean, besides snuff out we are totally unable to kill/block the flying nacatl before having taken 9 points of damage, and if they counter our snuff out (ok, only with FoW, but I'd counter it all life long), we find ourselves with -4 life and an evasive 3/2 which will end the game in 5 turns. Basing on you tests, have you been able to address this problem most of the times or did you find yourself struggling to find a solution? (being almost impossible for us to put up a faster clock then our opponent's)

As a side note: CoTV>>>thresh :wink:

3) Talking about grave hate most people will side in against us, has Surgical Extraction been an issue for you? We are still able to win games without passing through graveyard recursion, but we often need some sort of card advantage in the mid/late game to keep up the pressure. Also, Surgical Extraction makes it impossible to tutor for a 3-off, unless we're playing that card right after having resolved intuition.

4) scavenging ooze is simply amazing vs basically everything, but I'd like to have kitchen finks, not ooze, by my side when talking about lifegain. Ooze is very limited in that sense, and recurring it doesn't give us extra-life, unlike kitchen finks. Have you considered a 1-1 split or the randomness of drawing the wrong one is too high? (we basically become intuition-dependent to find the needed one).


Thanks in advance for the answers!

[AggroSteve]

from my expirience with the deck (well i am running a bit of a different version, because i do not posses hierarchs and natural orders) gravehate has been a serius issue for me, specially extirpate and the likes, basically it makes our trump-card look like crap.

i for my part run green sun zenith instead of hierarchs as it gives me allmost the same thing, but is an addictional tutor to search for the needed creatures

to the bluecount, i have allways used 20 or more in any other deck, but this deck actually only needs 19, at least in my incarnation of the deck.
with 19 blue cards you should never have a problem with casting force, and witness really helps a lot here

my really only problem with the deck is its inconsistency(it may be just my build, but i don't know), but this is one of the rare decks that can have absolute nut-draws, i often even prevented my opponents from doing anything of worth in the first 5 turns

the combination of GSZ, witness, snuff out, spell snare, and daze is really brutal, and it is because of this that i am thinking of cutting intiution for snapcaster mages as they have allmost the same use as witness and add to the bluecount, with the downside compared to witness that flashbacking is possible only once (specially unearth comes to mind)
will need testing, but it might be possible that this deck cannot work properly without intuition

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen: thanks for sharing the decklist :smile:

I'd like to ask you a few questions about some deck choices.



Sure thing!



1) The bluecount for FoW is really at the minimum (17 including FoW itself + progenitus, which I'd obviosly prefer not to pitch if possible). Do you ever find yourself lacking a blue spell to pitch to FoW in a critical stage of the game? I know witness helps you having the right card in hand and basically ups you bluecount if you had previously cast a brainstorm/pierce/daze, but we also have to keep in mind that witness is still a CC3 and a starting hand such as land-hierarch-land is happening only 40% of the games.

Nope. Obviously it happens occasionally, but not often enough to be an issue. As you observed, Witness recycles blue spells, effectively upping the count. I have no qualms about pitching Progenitus; the amount of effort required to get it back into my library isn't worth it if a problematic spell is about to be cast. Scavenging Ooze, Goyf, and Witness (and exalted, of course!) can easily do the job on their own. In fact, since including Ooze, I've been using it more and more often for the kill. That's the beauty of having a deck that's not dependent on any one strategy.

I am not above using Natural Order to fetch Eternal Witness (usually a fantastic move) or Scavenging Ooze.



2) I've been playing Canadian Threshold with great success over the last 3 years, and I perfectly know that UBG decks have some issues in dealing with a resolved mongoose (as you also stated in your primer). We obviously have a few ways to stop the shrouded green creature, but those solutions are mana intensive (pernicious deed) or at cc2 (tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze -> amazing vs thresh), basically the perfect target for opposing spell snares . The positive aspect is that nimble mongoose requires 3-4-5 turns to reach threshold and that works in our favor, giving us the time needed to set up a defense plan. But how do we deal with a resolved delver on turn1? I mean, besides snuff out we are totally unable to kill/block the flying nacatl before having taken 9 points of damage, and if they counter our snuff out (ok, only with FoW, but I'd counter it all life long), we find ourselves with -4 life and an evasive 3/2 which will end the game in 5 turns. Basing on you tests, have you been able to address this problem most of the times or did you find yourself struggling to find a solution? (being almost impossible for us to put up a faster clock then our opponent's)

G1, you just have to hope for Snuff Out on Delver, a counterspell, or resolving Deed. I've found that my first Snuff Out usually resolves, usually because it leaves me with enough free mana to pay for a Daze, and either the opponent doesn't have FoW, or doesn't want to use it (can't see why not, though). The 9-12 damage by the time Deed resolves is a real headache; on the other hand, Thresh usually has no MD answer to Deed, which absolutely cripples them. One board-wiping frequently means the game for them; if you're lucky enough to follow up with Ooze (or to have one on board already and just pop Deed for 1), you basically automatically win. For games 2 and 3, however, Chalice of the Void makes all the difference. Darkblast helps, to a certain extent, and I sometimes squeeze in some room for Maelstrom Pulse too (but not usually all three). I try to draw out Spell Snare with Goyf so that Ooze can resolve or, if I'm lucky, I draw out the counterspell with Ooze and cast Unearth. The nice thing is that we have too many must-counters for Thresh; their hand empties really quickly, and we're in a good position to take advantage of that.

The games with Thresh are pretty even, mostly because I lose G1 a little more than I win it, but win games 2 and 3 more often than I lose them. The nice thing is that the the longer the game goes, the more likely we are to win it. We have far more powerful mid- and late-games than they do, and it shows. The trick is surviving the first five turns with more than just a handful of life.

EDIT: I should add, in case it wasn't clear, that I side out the Natural Order plan against Thresh. It's just too risky and resource-intensive when I'm faced with the prospects of a counterspell war and Delvers. Chalice of the Void is a vastly superior choice for the matchup. It is so, so good.



As a side note: CoTV>>>thresh :wink:

Yeah, it's absolutely crippling. A resolved Chalice is game, even if there's still a Delver on the board (provided you have 6+ life!).



3) Talking about grave hate most people will side in against us, has Surgical Extraction been an issue for you? We are still able to win games without passing through graveyard recursion, but we often need some sort of card advantage in the mid/late game to keep up the pressure. Also, Surgical Extraction makes it impossible to tutor for a 3-off, unless we're playing that card right after having resolved intuition.

I ignore grave hate because it's not particularly effective. If my opponent is busy removing my graveyard, I just focus on resolving Progenitus, or beating face with with my creatures (who care more about the opponent's graveyard anyway). Graveyard hate is pretty much the least effective form of hate against this deck. We abuse graveyards, but we don't rely on them.

As for Extraction, playing around it is easy enough. I just don't tutor for tricks (Witness x2/Unearth, Loam piles), and instead use Intuition to triple-fetch my Forces of Will or something that I can cast by retaining priority.



4) scavenging ooze is simply amazing vs basically everything, but I'd like to have kitchen finks, not ooze, by my side when talking about lifegain. Ooze is very limited in that sense, and recurring it doesn't give us extra-life, unlike kitchen finks. Have you considered a 1-1 split or the randomness of drawing the wrong one is too high? (we basically become intuition-dependent to find the needed one).

I've considered it, but I haven't tried it. Ooze is just too good. I was initially concerned about the slower life gain, but it hasn't really proven to be an issue. In fact, with Ooze I typically gain far more life far faster in the matchups where it matters. In those matchups where it doesn't matter, I'd usually prefer to have Ooze anyway.






from my expirience with the deck (well i am running a bit of a different version, because i do not posses hierarchs and natural orders) gravehate has been a serius issue for me, specially extirpate and the likes, basically it makes our trump-card look like crap.

Yeah, that's a feature of your version. The Natural Order option makes graveyard hate irrelevant.



my really only problem with the deck is its inconsistency(it may be just my build, but i don't know), but this is one of the rare decks that can have absolute nut-draws, i often even prevented my opponents from doing anything of worth in the first 5 turns

I think that's probably a feature of your version as well; I typically don't stop everything for five turns, but I do have a great deal of consistency.



the combination of GSZ, witness, snuff out, spell snare, and daze is really brutal, and it is because of this that i am thinking of cutting intiution for snapcaster mages as they have allmost the same use as witness and add to the bluecount, with the downside compared to witness that flashbacking is possible only once (specially unearth comes to mind)
will need testing, but it might be possible that this deck cannot work properly without intuition

It's an interesting thought, particularly for your version, which is better placed to used SCM. My version wants Intuition as a backup plan to increase consistency.

[AggroSteve]

my biggest problem though with snapcaster mage is the removal-package, which would need to be completely different from the removal-package you would use with witness

obviously witness + snuff out just rocks, but SCM + Snuff out is no good

for snapcaster mage i would either need the following

go for the throat / smother (mana-intensive)
ghastly demise (very conditional, specially with a lot of graverecursion)
dismember (maybe the best one avialable, but the lifeloss might get to big, otherwise it is more manaintensive then go for the throat)

obviously this is just theory right now, because right now i do not have the money for snapcaster mages, but over christmas-holidays i will at least have the time to test a bit

on the other side, i could stil use witness for removal-recursion, and snapcaster for counter/draw-recursion, but in that case i would probably swith the 3 daze for either spell pierce, or the 4th spell snare + 2 counterspell

what are your thoughts on this matter

[spartan117]

@goaswerfraiejen: thanks for your quick reply. I agree with most of the things you said, they're supported with logic reasoning and good explanations. I do still have some issues about the bluecount, but testings will give me the answer I'm looking for.
Also: how does this deck fare against BG nic-fit? To me it doesn't seem to be a great MU... Liliana of the veil is a real pain if not answered properly... Maelstrom pulse could be very useful here but only post-side, deed is far too powerful in the actual metagame not to play it MD.

@aggrosteve: I quite like your own list, but to me goaswerfraiejen's one seems a lot more solid and resilient to targeted hate. Also, 2 copies of GSZ will result in only 1 acceleration, while 2 noble hierarches provide 2 more mana and double exalted/fodder for Natural Order. Talking about order, progenitus/empyrial archangel are much more powerful to me than hex-dephts, being immune to StP and PtE, which see a lot of play nowadays. If you were able to play order, would you play it over hex-depths? I think you would, because it allows you to play around grave hate and not to rely on intuition to reliably find the combo (NO-order is also immune to stifle/wasteland, which will slow you down a lot. Post side both combo suck against stifle-waste decks however :wink: ). I really like the 2 ponders you are playing, I'd like to find space for them but really can't. :frown:

[AggroSteve]

i would definitely play natural order instead of hex-dephts, since the metashift because of the Mental Misstep banning, this combo really sucks, everywhere stifles, spell snares, wasteland, everything i do not want to see if i am using this combo.

actually the hex-dephts combo was more of a budget alternative, but worked also quite well, in the latest list i went down to 1 hexmage, 1 DD, but added a 2nd unearth, because unearth is a blast.

Using the hexmagecombo, is definitely less resilient to hate, that is for sure and definitely weaker than natural order because the hexmagecombo is weak to gravehate just like the rest of the deck allready is a little

one thought i had was either substituting intuition (weak to extirpate effects and gravehate) for maybe 2 copies of living wish, but at last i decided to cut both (hexmagecombo, and intuition) for further testings

i will inform you how the deck works with snapcaster mages instead of intuition, hopefully its gonna be fuuuuun, at least the idea of having 6-8 witness-effects is really nice^^

@ playing 2 ponder: it may sound strange but in a blue deck i would never want to go under 4 brainstorm 2 ponder, those cards are just awesome, and i often even prefered ponder over brainstorm if i did not have to defend from discard

[wizard_of_gore]

Helo guys!

I notice this deck:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7312&iddeck=53188

And I liked a lot. Since i playing decks like rock, bant, landstill, team america, i own all cards for this deck. So, i what do you think about this natural order build?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Two newly spoiled cards to discuss:

Grafdigger's Cage (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672): This represents one more (small) stumbling block for us, since it neuters Natural Order and Unearth. Luckily, Unearth cycles, and Natural Order can always be sided out. For now, I think it will only be a minor annoyance, even if its use becomes widespread. We will still be able to use Natural Order G1, which is a huge advantage. And we still have plenty of ways of responding to the cage if necessary: counterpells, Deed, Pulse, Grip, etc. Its printing, however, does give us a good reason to give up on Skaab Ruinator for the time being (and Kitchen Finks, although Ooze definitely outclasses it).

The real bad news is that the Cage may well push Dredge out of the picture, and that's an overwhelmingly positive matchup for us. It will also probably push out Reanimator, which was also a pretty decent matchup. Oh well. On the bright side, that should free up some sideboard space for us to run our own Cages, and we're well-placed to take advantage of the power vacuum if Zoo and Maverick grow to try to fill out the new vacancies.

[http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127356&d=1326776474]Predator Ooze[/url]: I think this represents a plausible alternative strategy to Natural Order. Resolving it isn't too hard, it can be Unearthed, and it will grow fairly quickly (Snuff Out, Deed, and Darkblast can also help grow it when it's blocked). Indestructability complements Deed quite nicely, and makes it into a must-answer, or another Swords/Path target. I wouldn't run four, but I'll try to make room for one or two in either the MD or the SB. It may not make the cut, but it's definitely worth testing.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, my work has kept me from playing locally for the last several months. I should be able to start again now, however. From the limited testing I've still been doing on MWS, it seems like the current meta, while not intensely hostile to the deck, is not exactly the kind of meta in which it thrives: Sneak/Show is particularly hard to beat, I keep encountering Mono-B decks, which are typically quite hard to beat, and Maverick's and Blade Control's evolutions are becoming harder to keep up with. Plus, the splash-hate from RUG was pretty awful for a while there.


I'm optimistic about the future, however, and am particularly excited by the upcoming printing of Abrupt Decay (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113). It's quite an awesome addition to our arsenal precisely because it's versatile, easy to recur with Witness, easy to cast, and largely invulnerable to blue. That makes a huge difference, and gives us a good way of dealing with problematic cards like Counterbalance, Liliana and other mono-black tricks, and even gives us a way to deal with Jitte, the Swords (very relevant against the Blade Control decks), Germ tokens, Merfolk lords, Crucible of Worlds, etc. Plus, you don'T need to pay any extra to play around Thalia, it ignores Chalice, and it isn't stopped by Teeg (while Snuff Out was--a huge pain in the ass). All in all, that's a massive gain for this deck, and should help it keep pace with the competition.

The casting cost limit doesn't look like it will hamper us unduly, since we do have the means of dealing with many of the larger creatures that come out (e.g. lots of graveyard hate for Reanimator, hope of Shriekmaw; nothing vs. Sneak/Show anyway), and it's actually those cheaper spells that tend to be most worrisome.

The only question is what to cut for it. At this point, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate, which in turn helps us on the life loss front. Snuff Out's tempo is amazing, but having it countered is disastrous and it becomes increasingly hard to use as the game goes on; the tradeoff here and now seems fair enough to me.

For a while there I was also testing 3 Delvers in place of Pulse, and it's been working decently (not great, not terrible; just decent), but I think it's time to go back to Pulse to complement Abrupt Decay. I will try to find a fourth slot for Abrupt Decay because it's so good, and Pulse may just be what goes. We'll see.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I just finished uploading the newly updated primer. I've also made sure that its contents are all on the first page, so that nobody needs to download the PDF if they don't want to.

From my testing, Abrupt Decay makes a world of difference. Hopefully it and the rising popularity of the BUG variant of Nic Fit will renew interest in this deck, since that's a path we trod already.

[Vandalize]

I just finished uploading the newly updated primer. I've also made sure that its contents are all on the first page, so that nobody needs to download the PDF if they don't want to.

From my testing, Abrupt Decay makes a world of difference. Hopefully it and the rising popularity of the BUG variant of Nic Fit will renew interest in this deck, since that's a path we trod already.

How's 18 lands working? In my view, it's too few for a deck that has many CMC 2~3, and even cast Natural Order. Do you get screwed often?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

How's 18 lands working? In my view, it's too few for a deck that has many CMC 2~3, and even cast Natural Order. Do you get screwed often?

Honestly, it's not really an issue. It does happen, of course, and 18 lands is quite tight, even with Noble Hierarch evening things out, but it's rare and I quite frankly don't see much room to cut for another land or two. Hitting four mana by turn 5 isn't really all that important; what is is three mana by turn three. And that's not that hard.

My preference would be for 19 lands, but I've found that most of the cuts that would be possible impact performance more negatively than the lack of the 19th land does. Life from the Loam seems like the likeliest candidate for a cut, but it proved suicidal in previous metagames. I'll need more experience with this one to be sure, but I suspect the negatives will still outweigh the positives.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I was just thinking: rather than cut 1 Daze for the fourth Abrupt Decay, it makes sense to cut 1 Maelstrom Pulse, since Decay is functionally very similar. Plus, that way the blue count stays at exactly the minimum appropriate level (or one above the minimum, depending on whether you measure that at 17 or 18).

And that got my thinking that it may well be safe enough out there to cut Pulse entirely for the moment. So I'm currently testing with +1 Gigapede (why not? At least it's more or less effective vs. Planeswalkers, but it could really be anything, including another Pulse) and +1 land (Dryad Arbor for now, to see how it jibes, but I suspect a basic land would be even better).

On to the testing gauntlet!

[jeanbathez]

@Goaswerfraiejen : Very good work with the Deck and the primer. I like the idea of this Deck.
When i got my playset of decays next week i will test it at a small tournament.

[Plm]

Hi, great thread and primer.

After testing and playing "the mind harvester", the intuition control variant, I decided to switch to a faster intuition deck and found river rock (whose name puzzled me at first...)

I playtested the OP list a bit and found some issues against red/fast decks :

- The removal cost too much, 2 mana is doable because of versatility and fuckblueness, but 3 mana is late game and you need to answer 1cc threats sometimes.

- 18 lands is fewer than I'm comfortable with. Against decks short in removal you can bank on hierarch but red decks (and snapcaster decks) have enough removal to kill her at sight; which really hamper the deck plan to play 3cc spells.

- Not enough green critter mean that N.O. isn't reliable enough to win if you're behind. (when goyf is holding the fort, you're good :smile:)

- Not enough blue cards to pitch, I've lost many games with force and 2+ cards in hand and none of them blue.


The spots I think should be changed are the 3 pulses.

We could include - more green critter ( either beef or accel, I favor accel, maybe some deathrite shaman, maybe some green sun + dryad harbor).
- more blue stuff : a daze, a few ponder
- more lands : here comes dryad again !
- 1cc black removal. ghastly demise or disfigure, a 1 of darkblast ?

Against Zoo and burn lavamancer has been my worst nightmare, but it was hard to kill him with pulses :frown: .

I realize that I must sound bitter and only complaining, but I found the deck real good and want to help improve it. This post is not representative of how I see the deck, only its burn/zoo/slight match up.

For now I'll test the deck with 2 shaman and a darkblast instead of the 3 pulses and see how it goes.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@Goaswerfraiejen : Very good work with the Deck and the primer. I like the idea of this Deck.
When i got my playset of decays next week i will test it at a small tournament.

Cool! Let us know how it goes!




Hi, great thread and primer.

some issues against red/fast decks :

- The removal cost too much, 2 mana is doable because of versatility and fuckblueness, but 3 mana is late game and you need to answer 1cc threats sometimes.

- 18 lands is fewer than I'm comfortable with. Against decks short in removal you can bank on hierarch but red decks (and snapcaster decks) have enough removal to kill her at sight; which really hamper the deck plan to play 3cc spells.

- Not enough green critter mean that N.O. isn't reliable enough to win if you're behind. (when goyf is holding the fort, you're good :smile:)

- Not enough blue cards to pitch, I've lost many games with force and 2+ cards in hand and none of them blue.


The spots I think should be changed are the 3 pulses.

We could include - more green critter ( either beef or accel, I favor accel, maybe some deathrite shaman, maybe some green sun + dryad harbor).
- more blue stuff : a daze, a few ponder
- more lands : here comes dryad again !
- 1cc black removal. ghastly demise or disfigure, a 1 of darkblast ?



Thanks for picking up the deck!

Yeah. I came to more or less the same conclusion(s) in post #86: going down to 2 Daze for 4 Decay is the wrong move, because it puts the deck in borderline FOW territory (and it's already fairly close). So I've removed the 3 Pulses, and I think the deck still works fine (especially with Fleshbag Marauder rather than Shriekmaw now, since it can be Unearthed). I added Daze, Dryad Arbor, and Gigapede. I'm not entirely sold on Dryad vs. another proper land, since it's not yet really proven itself particularly useful, but in theory it should be pretty decent (I just hate fragilizing the mana base/development by making it even more susceptible to removal). I really love the Gigapede, so it's easy to add it back in (it diversifies Intuition pile options, and is hard to deal with). That may not be the best use of the slot, however. Another creature-option is the return of Kitchen Finks. Demise or Darkblast is also quite tempting (or perhaps even Pongify for the blue count), however. I think that slot needs some playing around. It would be awesome if there was a cheap blue-ish creature that could do double-duty here... I briefly contemplated Mystic Snake for old time's sake, but I doubt that'll be helpful. I suppose Phyrexian Metamorph might also be feasible.



Against Zoo and burn lavamancer has been my worst nightmare, but it was hard to kill him with pulses :frown: .

Lavamancer is indeed their biggest threat, simply because it turns their bolts into proper removal and allows them to attack some of our mana base. Removing or countering it is a priority. I don't know about worst nightmare, however; I've been able to remove it consistently with Decay, or counter it, or impede it with Ooze.


I realize that I must sound bitter and only complaining, but I found the deck real good and want to help improve it. This post is not representative of how I see the deck, only its burn/zoo/slight match up.

For now I'll test the deck with 2 shaman and a darkblast instead of the 3 pulses and see how it goes.


No worries, you don't sound bitter at all. When it's just me, it's hard to see past my own biases, and it's even harder to test all the possibilities. I'm glad you've enjoyed the deck, and are interested in improving it. I think your thoughts are bang-on.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It's been a while, I know. I've been too busy to take the deck out for a spin these last several months, although I've been doing some testing. I'll be taking it out to a local weekly on Thursday, although it won't quite be the most recent version of the deck since I'm missing DRSes.

I've been putting a fair bit of time into testing DRS in Hierarch's slot. I was worried about the potential lack of immediate mana, and that's sometimes an issue, but not often enough to be of real concern, especially next to DRS's sheer utility. Quick access to life gain and loss, as well as graveyard hate, makes it a very useful card indeed, and I now think the deck needs to run it to stay competitive (not least because everyone else runs it too!). It's not that big a deal to face off against (it just means that more emphasis gets placed on NO-Pro or on decoys), just mildly annoying.

Also, just to confirm changes mentioned earlier (but without an accompanying decklist): Abrupt Decay is in at 4 (too good not to include!), Gigapede is back, Fleshbag Marauder is now officially more useful than Shriekmaw, and Dryad Arbor's also in (at 1) for utility.


My current list, for the few who remain interested:


Lands (19)

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


Creatures (16)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Progenitus
1 Gigapede


Spells (26)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Intuition
3 Natural Order
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam


Sideboard (15)

4 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mana Leak

[Viridia]

It looks pretty good, however, don't you get stuck on mana alot? With only 19 lands and the 4 DRS + only 5 fetchlands to properly feed it yourself, i find it hard to believe you can make good use of Eternal Witness, Intuition and NO.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It looks pretty good, however, don't you get stuck on mana alot? With only 19 lands and the 4 DRS + only 5 fetchlands to properly feed it yourself, i find it hard to believe you can make good use of Eternal Witness, Intuition and NO.


Apologies for the late response; I thought I'd answered you earlier!

Getting stuck on mana can happen, although it's not as common as you seem to think. Certainly, as I've acknowledged a number of times (including in the primer), dedicated mana denial strategies are one of the deck's most serious challenges. Making good use of the cards you mention is not really a problem (getting to three mana is easy enough). But when Wasteland, Stifle, etc. are in the mix, it can indeed get hard. I'm all for more mana, although I don't see much room to cut (perhaps Daze's slots?). Any suggestions?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'm currently testing replacing the Dazes with a Misty Rainforest, a Phyrexian Metamorph, and The Mimeoplasm (for shits and giggles... it does have some synergy, but I've yet to actually make use of it in testing. Ditto the Metamorph). The trick is not to undermine our ability to cast Force of Will reliably, which has always skirted something of a fine line. Other suggestions for possibilities? I'm thinking at least two of those slots have to be blue, but there are still a number of possibilities available.