[Deck] Dragon Stompy [Archive]

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NecroYawgmoth

01-18-2011, 11:39 AM

Dragon Stompy

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/FUT/Magus_of_the_Moon_640.jpg

1) Creation and development of the deck
2) Dragon Stompy
3) Card Choices
4) Sideboard
5) The future of the deck
6) Sample Lists
7) Annex

1) Creation and development of the deck

Dragon Stompy is a Chalice-Aggro deck. The first Chalice Aggro decks were developed by Jarno Porkka [Eldariel]. He has developed and worked on Faerie Stompy most of the time. Chalice-Aggro decks are characterized by a mana-curve which usually begins at 3, so you can play Chalice of the Void at 1 and 2 to hinder your opponents gameplay, while you don't suffer from it. In order to play something with your "higher" mana-curve [3] in the first few turns, this type of decks play 4 Chrome Mox and 4 Ancient Tomb & 4 City of Traitors.

Dragon Stompy, however, was created and developed by Leif Whittaker [Tacosnape], and Billy Zane [Phantom]. The idea for the red Chalice-Aggro deck has existed since the print of Rakdos Pit Dragon. The deck was mostly built up around him.
First lists looked something like this:

4 Bloodrock Cyclops
4 Juggernaut
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Pyroclasm
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

To be honest, these old lists look like a big bunch of crap, but they were from the time where Goblins, Solidarity and Threshold were the big 3 decks, and Dragon Stompy was aimed to beat the first 2, and have a 50/50 MU against Thresh.

With the time they came up with the idea to include Arc-Slogger in the deck. Other cards like Simian Spirit Guide, Magus of the Moon and Gathan Raiders got printed. Gathan Raiders were an auto-include, and pushed the deck in the Hellbent-direction.

Damon Whitby [Parcher] was the first one who had played this deck with a "newer version" and Moon's effects on a larger tournament, and placed in Top 8, and thus demonstrated that it is viable.
Here's the list:

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Seething Song
2 Demonfire
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
1 Sulfur Elemental
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon
2 Icefall
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

2) Dragon Stompy

Today, Dragon Stompy is mostly characterized by it's screw & Moon-effects. It plays Blood Moon, Trinispheres and Chalice of the Void to impede the opponent and then quickly plays huge creatures to smash him. The usually at least 7 Moon effects are pretty hard for the Legacy-format [when you see how many non-basics are played, you know what I mean]. They can resolve 1st turn and just win the game. Trinisphere is directed against the mana-curve of the format, which is in most decks 1 and 2 for like 50+% of cards. Chalice of the Void is also against the curve, since the cost of many keyspells in Legacy is like I said usually 1 or 2. Dragon Stompy lives from playing as many of these anti-format oops I win cards. But this whole anti-Legacy-stuff is also one of the three weaknesses of the deck.

All non-basic hate aka Moons just do nothing against decks with many basic lands. Chalice or Trinisphere doesn't do anything if the opponent always plays only spells which cost 3+ mana. That means Dragon Stompy is only good in a meta where many non-basics are played, or the mana-curve is quite low. It's a meta-deck.

The second weakness is the inconsistency of the deck, as it is sometimes simply get screwed by having no reasonable ratio of screw / mana acceleration / creatures in the starting hand. Or as another example: You need to keep Hellbent, but draw an Arc-Slogger, and haven't the 5 mana to pay for it. [This happens rarely, but it does happen].

The third problem which has been always there is that Dragon Stompy has an incredibly bad mid- and late-game because it only plays from the top. Simple said, Dragon Stompy plays like this: Resolve a card, that wins the game [usually a Moon-Effect]. If that is not enough, play additional cards that screw or stall the opponent and resolve large creatures that kill the opponent as quickly as possible. If that does not work, you must hope that your opponent misplays, can't calculate combat math, or just do crappy things on his side of the field, because otherwise we will probably lose.
Tacosnape does an great explanation about this in the old DS-Thread:

Dragon Stompy's plan of attack has only the four following steps.

1. Drop a card that wins the game.
2. If that doesn't work, drop cards that stall for time and also drop huge enormous guys at ridiculous speeds.
3. If that doesn't work, hope your opponent makes a game-loss worthy play error, or spontaneously combusts from the nitroglycerin you snuck into his or her Dr. Pepper.
4. If that doesn't work, lose.

Hellbent actually fits pretty well into this "all-in" playstyle, even if it leads to the above-mentioned stability problems.

Taco says I should also mention that more than any other deck in the format, this deck's skill requirement gets downplayed. It's a -very- hard deck to play. People mulligan it wrong. People lead off wrong. People swing at the wrong times. He had never ever once watched a player play a game with Dragon Stompy that lasted longer than three turns where the DS player didn't make a mistake, and he watched a lot of them. Dragon Stompy punishes you greatly for every mistake. Too many players rely on Auto-Chalice or Auto-Moon wins and don't learn the skill required to win when things don't go according to plan.

3) Card Choices

Since Dragon Stompy is a Chalice-Aggro deck, it just can not play any card it wants.
It wants cards that cost 2R, or at worst 2RR, so that you can play the card with a 2-mana land + Mountain / Chrome Mox. Cards like Deus of Calamity or Demigod of Revenge which cost RRRRR are very bad, and cards like Seething Song don't justify playing them.

The core of [Hellbent]-Dragon Stompy looks like this:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Here are the explanations of each card which could be played:

Creatures

Akroma, Angel of Fury
Ladies first =), although the only one in this deck besides the rarely played Fortune Thief and Jaya ^^. Akroma is sometimes played as 1- or 2- off in lists that play 4 Seething Songs. She is just a control killer, and with 6/6 flying, trample & shivan pump a pretty strong beater. Protection from Swords, Path, Merfolk & bounce is also nice. She can be played in the earlygame without problems since she has Morph, and later instantly flip her up with a Seething Song + other mana. You can also mindgame with Gathan Raiders. Recently, however, she is rarely played, as most people try to bring stability to the deck, and cut Arc-Slogger. Without Slogger the deck usually cuts the Seething Songs. And without Songs, Akroma is unfortunately a bit too expensive to effectively remain in the deck. I should remember you that you can not put a Chalice at 0 and morph play her. -> More details on this at the Gathan Raiders.

Arc-Slogger
Is also one of the larger critters. Seething Song can put him in the play on first turn, and if the opponent then has no solution / removal for him, its most likely your game. He can shoot all the little creatures, and swing each round safely. He is also good in the Goblin / Merfolk MU. He isn't the best critter in the world, but unfortunately the best red critter for this spot. He can also shoot the last points of damage to the opponents head. His ability shouldn't be underestimated, but many do, because of the "Exile the top ten cards". But in 90% of the time, you won't see the bottom 40 cards of your library. Today he isn't played as often as in the past, because people try to bring consistency to the deck. Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs and Ogre Shaman are no replacement for Arc-Slogger, because they play more defensive, or you can't be sure to use their abilities. [We are the Aggro-deck]

Covetous Dragon
A finisher from the old german days. [germans played Covetous, while americans played RPDs] It's pretty good, that he has 6 power and can fly for just 5 mana. Unfortunately, it has the disadvantage that we have to sacrifice him, if we don't control an artifact. The old lists that played him up to 3 times, have also played Great Furnace as additional artifacts. Also, we should keep the artifact count with him quite high, that 4 Moxen, Trinispheres, Chalices and additionally 2 Jitte and artifact-lands are already set in a build with him. Unfortunately, the opponent can trade his artifact removal 2 for 1, if we "keep him alive" with only one artifact.
Most of the time, Arc Slogger is still better than this guy.

Flametongue Kavu
Is now frequently played in the Slogger slots by many players because it costs a mana less, and therefore brings more consistency. His CIP trigger just kills about any legacy creature not called Tombstalker / Tarmogoyf / Knight of the Reliquary [sometimes he can kill the early Knight or Goyf], or one of the big 5 "I win" creatures [Dreadnought, Progenitus, Iona, Marit Lage, Emrakul]. Unfortunately, he is bad against combo, and even more unfortunately he has only 2 toughness which makes sure that he trades 2 to 1 most of the time instead of making aggro.

Fortune Thief
A bizarre Metagame-choice, but think about it. If your meta is full with Merfolk, Elves, TempoThresh, Landstill, Thopter, etc. [removal light decks] she is an Oops-I-win card. She can Morph-bluff with Raiders and possibly with Akroma, also. Only downside is, that she is a 0/1 after morphing.

Gathan Raiders
3 mana for a 2 /2, with the potential of becoming a 5/5. It's good to unmorph it and throw away that card that prevents us from keeping Hellbent, and thus he supports himself and Rakdos Pit Dragon. The best creature for the needs of the Hellbent and Aggro route of the deck. You should just watch out that you can not put it morphed, if you control a Chalice 0, since the converted mana cost of morph creatures is zero. For this purpose, the rules:

Comprehensive Rules
[I]502.26a Morph is a static ability that functions any time you could play the card it's on, and the
morph effect works any time the card is face down. The phrase "Morph [cost]" means
"You may play this card as a 2 / 2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes,
no expansion symbol, and a mana cost of 0 by paying three rather than its mana cost. "Any
time you could play an instant, you may show all players the morph cost for any face down
permanent you control, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up This action
does not use the stack.

Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
She looks more than a sideboard card against folks and the like, but she is actually a pretty good card in the main, as she can filter non-needed and drawn Spheres/Moxen/etc in 3 damage. Her biggest problem are her casting costs because 1RR is sometimes hard to obtain. =( Her other 2 abilitys aren't that bad either [1/2Pyroblast against Folk or Inferno against all form of other Aggro].

Kargan Dragonlord
A different card choice, but he also has a meaning. The arguments against him are his mana cost of RR, and he is only "useful" when you have invested RRRRRR in him. But Kargan is designed to do what the other threats in the deck don't - shine when Blood Moon is out. Seething Song and now Koth of the Hammer help him tremendously. The fact that he gets flying midway makes him incredibly useful in a damage race, and the inevitability of his final form, is just surreal. He also creates a nice balance in how you play your hands. All the other guys fight to be played first. He doesn't. He either gets played last, or you get a hand where he's your only turn one play off Mountain/Mox. The only drawback is his manacost, so you shouldn't play it more than 2 times.

Lodestone Golem
The Juggernaut 2.0. 5 power for 4 mana, and an effect that slightly screws the opponent. What speaks against him is that he has only 3 Toughness [dies from a Bolt], and that the screw-effect also screws ourselves. Also, the +1 mana effect is mostly irrelevant if we control a Trinisphere. Furthermore, you can not imprint him in a Chrome Mox, which is worse than you think. I have even tested him in a Ponza-oriented version with Avalanche Riders, Goblin Ruinblaster and Stone Rain, and even there, I was not convinced by him. A few people play him, but I wouldn't do so.

Lord of Shatterskull Pass
The other level-up critter that comes into consideration. 4 mana for a 3/3 is puny on the first look, but at a one-time investment of 1R, we have a 6/6. He has the "bigger than Goyf" argument on his side, and at the same time a big attacker [or blocker, depending on game-state]. He has also through the investment of a further 10 mana [Yes, there are aggro stall games], an Ultimate-level-ability that should bring us the win. Like Kargan or RPD, he is good if you have a lot of mana to spare, and in this situations where you draw another land from the top.

Magus of the Moon
The Blood Moon in creature form. Because of its ability to win the game by resolving, he is set as a 4 off. He punishes all multicolored decks that play duals, and is one of the reasons why the deck is strong. Is not much to say about him except: Play it 4 times!!!!! I should perhaps explain that the Magus also works under a Humility.

Explanation:
This is due to the layers in Magic. Magic has 7 layers, which are the following:
1. Copy Effects
2. Control effects
3. Text changing effects
4. Type changing effects [Magus of the Moon]
5. Color changing Effects
6. Ability to add / remove effects [Humility]
7. Power / Toughness changing effects

As you can see, the Magus is in layer 4, and the Humility is in layer 6. Since the effect of the Magus in layer 4 is already active, it remains so when Humility removes the ability of all creatures in layer 6th. [easy, isn't it =P]

Moltensteel Dragon
An updated Lava Hounds =). This Dragon is not bad, as it can attack Pseudo-Hatred and instantkill the opponent. But it has his downsides also. First of all it's an Artifact which means you can't imprint in into Chrome Mox. Second, It nearly always costs you the 4 life, because we are somewhat a suicidish deck, and this can suck with Ancient Tomb. It is very dangerous to pump nearly all your life in it, and then lose the game to a single removal, but in the end, Dragon Stompy is an all-in deck, and you you won't regret playing him.

Phyrexian Revoker
The new Pithing Needle on legs. Somehow better because he can swing and because he hits thousands of cards that are very effective against us, or help the opponent to break out of the Moon-lock. A few cards he could name: AEther Vial, LED, Noble Hierarch, Gempalm Incinerator, Deed, Mox Diamond/Opal, Equipments, Planeswalkers... the list goes on and on. As we can see this card takes out countless annoying permanents, which could cause much problems for the deck. Testings has proven very fast that he is absolutely needed in the main for the modern legacy metagame.

Priest of Urabrask
Priest of Gix returned! But now his red! He seems good at first look, but he is rather crappy on the second look. A 2/1 creature without game-winning abilities isn't something this deck needs. It is great to play him first turn into Trinisphere or some protection Sword, but he is a lousy topdeck, and won't win the game on it's own. -> Great in equipment heavy builds, lousy in normal DS-Builds.

Rakdos Pit Dragon
Its the finisher and the namesake of the deck. What should I write about a finisher?
4 mana for 3 Toughness is as mentioned above [Shatterskull] not great, but the Dragon usually instantwins when you have Hellbent and he can attack. Otherwise, he ignores such stupid things as Moat.

Simian Spirit Guide
The monkey =) The main reason why we play it is the mana acceleration he provides us. We can play the 2 or 3 mana spells much easier on turn 1. It also helps us to play around Daze. Later, he is an emergency only creature that can be put on the table. In these cases he can sometimes hold a Jitte and becomes the "Monkey with a weapon" which is only funny in the german language [Affe mit Waffe].

Sulfur Elemental
Is just an alternative to many other cards, but sometimes it's played. The problem is that it is a 3/2, which haven't the potential to grow bigger. Still, the pros of the Elemental are:
- combat-tricks
- uncounterable
- instant speed [can unexpected resolve eot and than surprisingly carry a Jitte]
- Is good in response to a Standstill
- kills Mother of Runes, random White Weenie, Elspeth Tokens
Nevertheless, all except the last argument is more or less meaningless. Sulfur was only the gap because nothing better was there.

Taurean Mauler
Has the potential to become very large [as long as you do not forget to put counters on it]. It is often played on first turn if you do not have the possibility to play a screw-part, because the opponent now thinks 2 times if he plays the likes of Brainstorm/Ponder or not. Has [if resolved early] the possibility to become larger than the Goyf. A further point is that it gives the deck constance, as he has the optimal mana-cost [2R]. He has a good price / performance ratio. Because of its Changeling ability he is also also sometimes unblockable against Merfolk or other tribals, when the opponent is not careful enough.

[I]Other Stuff

Blood Moon
More Moon effects. Yes... Blood Moon... same reasons as Magus. It can resolve first Turn and simply settle the game. It isn't played 4 times in all lists [like Magus], because it is a bit worse as it can't swing. On the other hand It can't be bolted. 3 additional moons is the minimum in my opinion, because it's a hard fight for Legacy against a deck with 7+ Moon effects.

Koth of the Hammer
Koth is currently the best Red Planeswalker Magic has to offer. He has the disadvantage that he can exploit his full potential only in mono-red deck with many Mountains. We play 10-11 Mountains & 7+ Moons, and making our non-basics also Mountains. Perfect for us. His first ability allows us to change Mountains into a 4/4,attacker. This gives the deck some extra aggro, so it's not bad for us. His second ability gives us a shitload of mana which we can use to empty our hand, and usually reach Hellbent [we can invest this mana also in level up, or to pump the PRD incredibly high], and we don't suffer about the "I can play my Slogger not lose Hellbent problem" problem anymore. This ability gives us constance, although it is the least used ability. The Ultimate creates an emblem which should change the board-situation VERY MUCH our favor [usually you have 4 + Mountains at this time].

Seething Song
Is there to perform sick actions on the 1st and 2nd Turn. The manaboost is quite enormous. Later, he loses some of its value, because in a Hellbent topdeck he is only good with a pump-Dragon or a Level-up dude.

Chalice of the Void
The namesake of the Chalice Aggro decks. It is preferred to cast in for 1 in order to hinder the opponent to find into play. It forbids containing mostly cantrips, but it also hits some creatures, and quite a lot of removal, and that's good . Chalice 2 also hits very much relevant cards. To name a few: "Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Umezawa's Jitte, Life from the Loam"

Chrome Mox
Provides easy mana-boost on the first turn. They want to reach 3 mana as quickly as possible. The 1 card in hand we lose is not significant, because we want Hellbent.

Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Body and Mind
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of War and Peace
The protective-Sword circle... Technically you could play any of these Swords in Dragon Stompy if you need the protection of the color combination.But the best Sword for Dragon Stompy is Body and Mind. This deck has huge problems with an early Goyf or big creatures [mostly Knight of the Reliquary]. If you can't race them, you need to defend against tham. This is where this Sword shines. It can attack through Goyfs / Knights, and you can then re-equip this Sword to the Wolf-Token and still defend. Pro-Merfolk is also good. The 2nd best Sword for Dragon Stompy is Fire and Ice, but think about it, that you'll lose Hellbent when you attack with it [yap, even the 2nd Strike of Rakdos Pit Dragon vanishes with it]. The other three Swords are only relevant for their protective colors, because their abilites aren't any good for Dragon Stompy. For example: Feast and Famine-> Discarding a card and untaping all Lands is not needed, as the opponent just discards a card he can't play, and we need to play all things before the attack-phase thanks to Hellbent.

Trinisphere
This is one of the other screw-parts of the deck. 1st turn resolved it is a double Time Walk.Against manascrewed opponents is usually a easy win. 1st turn resolved, it also ensures that the spell in the next turn is uncounterable. However, this card also has its disadvantages. Take for instance a 1st turn start with Ancient Tomb -> Mox -> Trinisphere, and the opponent opens with Wasteland. Furthermore, you can argue about how many spheres are the optimal number. Sure you will always want it in the opening 7, but if you have more than 1 in the opening hand, you begin to hate it. In any case, you should always have 4 of them between main and side.

Umezawa's Jitte
The best piece of equipment which Magic has to offer. [Skullclamp isn't an equipment, it's a draw-engine] And that's why it is played. Normally if you play Dragon Stompy, you just want to overextend and play more creatures. But Jitte is... well Jitte. It can do almost anything and it wins games on it's own, IF you can play with it. Some lists even play it up to 3. The question is, if 3 isn't a bit too much, because of the legendary status and the Hellbent. Jitte not bad, but the question is if Dragon Stompy really needs equipment.

[I]Lands

Ancient Tomb
One of the two 2-Mana lands. Is not much to say about it except that it is 4 times essential for the Manabase. You should also be careful because sometimes the damage adds up faster than you think.

City of Traitors
The other of the two 2-Mana lands. Including it as a 4-off is essential. Does no harm you, but it dies if you play a different land. This can, however, be countered well with Moon-effects.

Great Furnace
Only found in lists with Covetous Dragon. Its played in place of 3-4 Mountains there. But has the disadvantage that the manabase is more vulnerable to Wastelands. Under a Blood Moon it is an artifact, because Blood Moon will change the sub-type of the land, and not the types & supertypes of a card.

Mountain
Provides red mana, and thus helps us to cast our spells. Otherwise it can also pump Rakdos Pit-Dragons, level creatures, equip Jitte and do stupid things with Koth. It would be wrong to play Dragon Stompy without that card.

4) Sideboard

The sideboard with Dragon Stompy is usually that you board out your worst screw-piece in exchange for sideboard cards. You nearly never board out creatures, because you don't want to lose Aggro. [Exception: Flametongue Kavu against combo].

But now the Choices:

Anarchy
Massive underplayed sideboard card. It is good against Stax & Enchantress [unless there is Karmic Justice], helps against U/W Tempo, random White Weenie but can also kill Progenitus, Rhox War Monk and Knight of the Reliquary. Circle of Protection: Red also finds mention as white decks boarding it in from time to time.

Blood Moon
If you have not yet maindecked 4 Blood Moon you can store more in the sideboard, because against some matchups you just always want to have them.

Boil
Is good against control strategies such as MUC, if it would resolve against that... Also helps against Merfolk, or playing decks which have a very high number of U-Duals

Firespout
Pyroclasm
Slagstorm
Volcanic Fallout
If you need a red Sweeper you should look to any of these cards. Firespout has the perfect costs, but it can't hit flying creatures which is mostly relevant against Vendillion Clique, Trygon Predator and Sower of Temptation. Slagstorm can hit flyers, but the costs are a bit harder to pay, it also has the ability to hit players and finish your opponents off. Pyroclasm does less damage and conflicts sometimes with Chalice 2. Volcanic Fallout hast the same complicated costs as Slagstorm, but it is instant, hits flyers AND is uncounterable [eat that Mefolk]. In my Opinion Volcanic Fallout is the best of these 4, but in a meta with many 3-toughness creatures Firespout and Slagstorm are worth a look at.

Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
On the first glance it looks anti-synergistic with Chalice 1, but you should keep in mind that you board out CotV against the decks this card is good [Merfolk, Jacestill, Show & Tell]. Furthermore, it should be noted that if you play more than 4, Pyroblast should always be maximized first, since you can cast it on own cards if you need Hellbent.

Pyrokinesis
Is good against swarmaggro, and helps with the pitch of another red card to come closer to Hellbent. Mostly this cards takes down 2 or even 3 creatures, making them pretty well against these matchups. It is worth mentioning that you should be careful with Trinisphere in combination because it can be anti-synergetic sometimes.

Shattering Spree
The best Artifact-hate that hits multiple opposite artifacts you could ask for. Helps against Affinity, Stax and everything else with many artifacts, obviously. Always play 4 in metas with lots of Affinity. Chalice at 1 will only counter the original and not the replicates, so there is no downside here =)

Spinal Villain
Fits perfectly in our manacurve and hates Merfolk as much as I do. However, Merfolk is the only MU where I could really imagine to board this card, because there are nearly no other relevant U creatures.

Pithing Needle
When 4 Revokers in the main aren't enough, we could also board in additional Needles.

Ratchet Bomb
Simply the Powder Keg 2.0 which can also hit Planeswalkers and Planeswalker. Is good against Zoo, Tarmogoyf, and other decks that are pretty much on the low manacurve. Also good against token, and in the modern legacy meta almost indispensable for Dragon Stompy.

Silent Arbiter
This isn't a card most Stompy builds run but in builds which focus on 1 - 2 beaters with equipment backup this can hose down tribal/aggro, acting as a Dueling Ground while also providing a 1/5 body to block.

Tormod's Crypt
The Graveyard Hate. Nice against all the decks that do a lot with the Graveyard, such as Loam or Dredge. Unfortunately, an effective split of Ravenous Trap, Relic of Progenitus & Tormod's Crypt against Dredge, is not affordable due to the dependence of Hellbent and Trinisphere, as well as the anti-synergy with Chalice 1.

Trinisphere
As mentioned above, all Trinispheres which are not in the main belong in the the sideboard. Good against combo, burn, hyper cascade[lol], and other decks with very low mana curve.

Umezawa's Jitte
Another possible choice against aggro. People who don't like Pyrokinesis or want more cards against aggro, can pack into the sideboard.

5) The future of the deck

... depends, which cards got printed, and how the format evolves.
As long as Legacy's manacurve remains low, and players play a lot of non-basics the deck will certainly remain a viable choice for Legacy. The printing of Mental Misstep is kinda huge for this deck, because all Chalice-Aggro decks are immune to Mental Misstep.

6) Sample Lists

Peter Hiebl Bazaar of Moxen IV, 2010 [18th of 498]

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

3 Anarchy
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt

Dragon Stompy by Tacosnape

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Stingscourger
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Arena of the Ancients
2 Manic Vandal

Dragon Stompy by Masamune:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
4 Ratchet Bomb

Dragon Stompy by me [latest version]

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Slagstorm
3 Tormod's Crypt

7) Annex
That was it for the first. If anyone has suggestions, constructive critic or anything else, feel free to PM me, or write in in the thread. I will change it if its needed. Thank you for Taco & Phantom for creating this deck, and Phantom for his old Dragon Stompy Primer. Thanks to Odysseus for grammar-checking this whole thing. Special thanks to Tacosnape, Ivanpei, Masamune, Forlorn Egoist and all others for answering all my questions for this Primer per PM, and to all others who are still helping for developing the deck =)

Link to the old Thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7622-[Deck]-Dragon-Stompy

Gui

01-18-2011, 11:49 AM

Good job, nice primer! ^^

ForlornEgoist

01-18-2011, 11:56 AM

Uh, did you get permission to post the thread? We already have a rather prominent Stompy Thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7622-[Deck]-Dragon-Stompy. Albeit no-one has posted it in a couple days and your primer is a bit more expansive, but yeah. Seems pointless to remake the thread.

Forlorn Egoist

mercs

01-18-2011, 05:08 PM

ForlornEgoist

01-26-2011, 12:19 AM

mercs

01-26-2011, 02:24 AM

So, I'm starting to hop on the band wagon for Phyrexian Revoker over Needle. True, it does die to creature hate although I think being able to block/punch through extra damage is a little bit more relevant. Besides, at least with Revoker we aren't likely to run into that annoying CotV@1 issue we do with Needle (and hitting a CotV@2 is rather rare, so I don't think that's an argument against it's use either).

I've also starting to come around to Lord of Shatterskull Pass. 4/1R for a 6/6 isn't incredibly amazing, but I think he's a better investment for us (at least as opposed to Kargan) as he can take down most opposing creatures and isn't as dependant as Kargan is on R.

For the Merfolk MU, what are general strategies/SB options people use? I've been tempted to run Taurean Mauler in the SB, but I can't for the life of me think of any other MU I'd want him in (Similar argument for Spinal Villain) but I also don't run into Merfolk enough where I'd want to MD Mauler or SB Mauler/Villain. I originally took out MD Mauler for Lord of S/P because I felt Mauler just wasn't doing a good job later in the game, but if Merfolk starts to see greater play I may have to review him. When VV became mainstream I had originally taken out Boil, but since Countertop/Tribal will be coming back, it may be time to pull them out as well.

Forlorn Egoist

Nice to see you on the bandwagon. u've got good company. :P

As for mauler, he's really good early game of course, and for some reason, no one sees the tech when LOA comes out. lol
However, he isn't gamebreaking in the matchup tho. Pre-coralhelm commander, he was pretty beastly.

Nowadays, merfolk issues in coralhelm, stoneforge mystics into jittes/sofi, and white splash for StP and Absolute Law. This kind of wrecks us.

I know no one agrees w/ me, but I miss survival bc it made merfolk massively concentrate on black splash. The white splash rapes.

I've had good experiences with mauler in cb top, loam, and enchantress matchups as well, so it's not solely for merfolk. As always, you gotta find the right mixing and matching of ur DS creatures. Esp if you're going no slogs, kargan, LoSP, etc. I personally don't like too many vanillas, but keep tinkering and playtest to find a good ratio.

TheSleeper

01-26-2011, 06:33 PM

Love the new Primer. Is Inferno Titan worth being included in 'creatures to consider'? My friend and I have been testing him as a two-of in normal 'Seething Song' builds. Early game he pitches to Mox but mid game with Song, or late game he is a huge bomb IMO. Stompy is quick out of the gates but loses steam shortly after. A number of times Inferno has come down and dealt the last 3-6 damage required.

I guess the obvious competition he has is Arc-Slogger. The 1-mana less is huge for Slogger I know, meaning he can be cast off a Song straight up. However if you wanted to activate him first turn, that would be 6-mana as well (same as Titan). I don't think he's perfect but he's solid, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Purgatory

01-28-2011, 05:18 AM

This is great! I don't have time to read all of it just yet, but from what I skimmed, great primer!

I'm pretty new to the deck, and still waiting for an SCG-package to arrive with some cards for the deck - Cities, Bombs etc., so this will certainly be useful. Thanks a lot for the write-up.

Purg

Angelfire

02-03-2011, 09:59 AM

Awesome Primer. The information about matchups, history, card choice and little things like, what to set Chalice at, were really informative and helpful in refining my build. I have been working on this deck for some time now and mine is almost complete now. Kosh is really the main reason I am finally finishing it.

Some topics of discussion:

1.) How many moon effects?

I understand they are gg or pretty fuckin close against so many decks, but sometimes 8 feels like too many. I personally run 7 (1 Blood Moon on the board).

2.) I run Trinisphere x3. Talk me out of it?

It isn't good in multiples, is mediocre against a chunk of decks and is much worse on the draw or not turn 1. Again, the 4th one is in my SB.

3.) Sword of Feast and Famine

I definitely feel like this is worth testing. It not only provides protection from some removal, but help stabilize the board (something this deck struggles to do if it doesn't hamper your opponent enough). The discard potion is alright, but the untapping lands is amazing. It really allows you to dump your hand onto the board and enable Hellbent or just overwhelm and disrupt the fuck out of your opponent. Imagine something like... turn 1: Trini/Chalice.
turn 2: Koth (maybe bash for 4).
turn 3: Cast Sword, animate land, equip, bash 6, force a discard, and untap lands then cast more shit after combat.

4.) I love this deck. I hope Wizards gives it the love it deserves... in the form of more powerful threats.

I would love for them to make a 2R Stone Forge Mystic variant. Red should have more synergy with equipment! Also the equipment could even go to the top of the library if it allowed the creature to be slightly more decent. Something like...

"Forge Elemental"
2R
Creature - Elemental Warrior
When <this> enters the battlefield search your library for an equipment card, reveal it, shuffle and put it on top of your library.
If <This> is equipped, it gains +2/+2 and Trample. OR Equipping costs 1 less.
3/2

Usable removal:
2R
Sorcery
Deal 5 damage to target creature or player.

If they are willing to reprint Lightning Bolt there is no way they think adding 2 colorless for 2 damage and making it a sorcery is too strong.

I also want a bomb that is around Baneslayer Angel power level:
3RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Firebreathing, Trample

5/5

I do think the endgame goal for this deck is to cut the whole Hellbent theme.

Masamune

02-03-2011, 10:26 AM

...
IMO SoFF is terrible even if we could play anyone strategies with two or three cards in hand. I'd rather SoFI because the draw trigg is better than untap... in other words, SoFF in late game is very worst than other Swords

Angelfire

02-03-2011, 06:09 PM

IMO SoFF is terrible even if we could play anyone strategies with two or three cards in hand. I'd rather SoFI because the draw trigg is better than untap... in other words, SoFF in late game is very worst than other Swords

SoFF enables Hellbent rather than removing it. Moving Equipment around and casting more spells is generally more useful than drawing a card. I also said test it, not make claims based soley on hypothetical situations.

NecroYawgmoth

02-03-2011, 11:17 PM

Angelfire

02-04-2011, 09:32 AM

@ Angelfire

1) 6 is the absolute minimum imo, but Dragon Stompy wants many WIN-Cards and it also supports Koth, so I'd always play 8.

2) It's ok to only run 3 Trinisphere. This is the card that mostely gets cutted if people want to make room for other things.

3) I don't see why SoF&F should be awesome here... The untap effect is awesome when you have a Koth-Emblem, and ONLY then. By the time you equip a Sword, you should already have reached Hellbent, and you won't need that mana anymore... the discard is, like you said, useless. Your imagination also requires many cards Tomb+COTV+Land+SSG+Koth+Sword+Land, this are 7 cards, and you can't gurantee that you have 5 Mana in turn 3 [first Turn Trini requires even more cards, like +1 Mox, and +1 Pitchcard]. If i can land Koth on 2nd Turn, I mostly have Hellbent on the next turns and animate 4/4 Mountains all day...

IMO SoF&I > SoL&S > SoF&F > SoB&M... If you want to run Swords, run SoF&I, yes it IS antisynergistic with Hellbent, but the pro Merfolk/Goblin ability helps against the 2 most common tribaldecks, and most of the time, you win by equipping it.

Nevertheless, I don't listed the Swords in the Primer because they are all inferior to Jitte. if you want to play Equipment, run Jitte.

4) Your red Stoneforge is way to overpowered, but on the other 2 cards... yeah... I also wish for a usable 2R removal or a Baneslayer Dragon. But the most importan thing would be a solid creature which can shoot damage and is better than Slogger.

I tried endless Versions of non-Hellbent Stompy, but they all fail somehow... there aren't any creatures, that are better than Gathans and RPD, sad but true =(

I often find myself struggling to enable Hellbent (Raiders and Dragons are pretty bad without). SoFF is a good way to generate mana, gain card advantage and make your generally weak creatures into legitimte threats. I also have a ton of Green and a good amount of Black in my meta. I can't say that it is definitely worth running, but I know it is too early to say it is definitely NOT worth running. Also, I do run Jitte.

My Red Stoneforge is not even close to OP. The equipment goes on top of your library. This makes it inferior to the white one.

Non-Hellbent Stompy is not viable yet... but one day lol. I would also be in favor of renaming this deck Moon Stompy or Blood Stompy. RPD is not nearly as essential and deck defining as Blood Moons (which I am going back to 8 of btw).

An underdiscussed SB option seems to be Faerie Macabre. It dodges Chalice and Trini and the instant speed of it means it can often make an opponent's spell/ability fail (people simply play around Crypt/Relic). It can also be recurred off of SoLS if you are running it and imprinted on Mox in an emergency (although these factors are largely irrelevant).

NecroYawgmoth

02-04-2011, 09:45 AM

Sims

02-04-2011, 10:52 AM

Well... I don't understand Macabre at all...

Crypt is good, as we can hate Dredge also with Trini, Moon, COTV... but Macabre is not THAT good against Dredge...

As a long time Dredge player I can tell you, that a first turn Moon or Trini backed up with a Crypt [or 2, lol] is much more devastating. It's much easier to play around a 2 card remover, then a yard remover. with a Trini in play it will be hard for the Dredge player to hardcast Grudge, and with a Moon they can't flashback it. I don't know about other MUs, but for Dredge Crypt > Macabre [at least in DS]

I wouldn't even be worried about dredge, to be honest. Between the moon effects, quick trinispheres and chalices (@1 turns off careful study, tribe, imp, and therapy) you shouldn't have much of a problem. Hell I've even cast out SSG's just to have a non-moon guy to shoot with slogger to remove bridges. The matchup isn't that hard. I probably wouldn't even board in Crypts, traps, fae, as you should be favored without them if you keep a solid hand.

Fae is better than crypt in certain matchups for this deck because it side-steps your own trinispheres and chalices. A drawn Crypt after 3-sphere is on the table kinda sucks, but when your opponent goes to cast LFTL and return their chasm/tabby/waste/ring/gargoyle castle/etc.... Sniping their targets is pretty good. Same with sniping Iona's out of reanimator's yard (if people still play that deck.)

In general, crypt is the better card, but looking at it them in context I can definitely see reasons to run the Fae over Crypt.

FieryBalrog

02-06-2011, 04:00 AM

After playtesting this deck extensively (and finally getting all the cards IRL) I have to say I love Arc-Slogger. He is by far the best creature in the deck IMO (besides maybe Magus but he's completely different). There have been ridiculous games where I am completely blown out but I win because I stick and untap with Slogger, and there are all the other regular games where he destroys everyone. I run him as a 3-of because of the dependence on Song. For Raiders/Pit Dragon, they are good creatures and work well with the deck, but hell-bent is swingy and unreliable and they aren't that great without it.

I am the brainwasher

02-11-2011, 03:49 PM

I am playing the following version after sculpting long around with a good friend of mine.

10 Mountains
1 SNow-Covered Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Kher Keep

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler

2 Koth of the Hammer

Sb.:
2 Fortune Thief
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Firespout
2 Anarchy
2 null Brooch

I am really liking that build right now but I am so unsatisfied with that Taurean Mauler. I am desperatly Searching for an alternative but came to the conclusion that there isnt a better option printed for that Slot:frown:. I really dislike that guy and feel always underwhelming playing him, besides maybe Folks or Gobs. Is there a card that also costs oner Red and 2 generic Mana that is good enough? I havent found it, if some of you are in greater Knowledge let me know, this is the only problem this deck has in my eyes atm.
Greetings

I am the brainwasher

02-11-2011, 03:56 PM

PS: Trying Countryside Crusher in that Slot atm but still unsatisified!

Admiral_Arzar

02-11-2011, 05:23 PM

PS: Trying Countryside Crusher in that Slot atm but still unsatisified!

Cut it and try running Phyrexian Revoker in the main instead. While it's not a great beater by any means, it answers a lot of this deck's large problems - i.e. Vial, Jace, etc. Then use the sideboard space for something else.

Dark Ritual

02-12-2011, 01:26 AM

Countryside crusher in a deck running 18-19 lands seems absolutely terrible. I agree, revoker is probably better. Revoker hits vial, one of this decks greatest weaknesses if we're on the draw and they drop vial turn 1 it is very hard to win sans having a god hand. It almost completely shuts down moon effects along with chalice of the void and trinisphere. Also a good thing about revoker is that the card is very easy to cast costing 2 colorless mana he can be cast off of any double land or just off of mountain + SSG/chrome mox. What's not to love about a pithing needle on legs that also nabs LED? The card is very good.

Shawon

02-12-2011, 01:49 AM

Not to mention, Revoker dodges your own Chalices set to 1.

I am the brainwasher

02-12-2011, 11:03 AM

I am aware how good the Revoker is, thats why 4 were bought directly as they were available and were putted in the sb... .
I dont see him in the maindeck because he isnt a thread without equipment and cant be pitched to Chrome Mox which seems not that bad, but really is a huge disadvantage in my eyes. Besides that, which is indeed the smallest prob., he doesnt interact good with Chalice @ 2.
I see his great impacts on the board sometimes, but I really dont see him as THE card that i want to include badly in the maindeck, even if there are so many decks which run vial atm (Gobs, Folks, Maverick, Junks&Taxes, Death&Taxes, Green&Taxes...). I am hoping desperatly that a new guy is printed which fits better in that slot, but as said again, I havent found him yet, still looking forward to get a hint or wait till that Phantom-card is printed.
Everyone else tried Kher Keep and Null Brooch? I think those cards are huge, especially the Brooch when you play the Hellbent lists.

NecroYawgmoth

02-12-2011, 03:48 PM

As long as there is no better creature than Arc-Slogger I won't replace him...

...testings has shown that there is no good alternative, and I repeat that [even if I never imagined it] its no good idea to remove Seething Song as long as cc5 cards are in the deck.

Revoker [while being a real good card] is not maindeckable IMO, because he doesn't fit good enough in the Aggro-role, and he also doesn't fit good enough in the "I win"-role [we didn't play Needles main in the past]

WHY Kher Keep? When does this card does something relevant?

I can somehow understand Null Brooh, even if I never tested it, and I think Fortune Thief can be a good [meta dependant] choice, but Kher Keep? against what? seriously. 2 Mana and a land tap for a 0/1... and the land doenst produces R either.

Best alternatives for your last Sloggerless Mauler slot would be FTK or Thief, but remember this:

Playing Taurean Mauler and not Arc-Slogger is a mistake. Mauler's more consistent. Mauler's solid. Mauler won't clog your hand. Mauler's never just awful. But Mauler doesn't win you near the games Slogger will. When you end up staring down a freshly played 4/4 Knight of the Reliquary, Mauler's going to lose that race. Slogger can at least spend 20 cards to nuke the thing. Or 30 if it's a little bigger.

mercs

02-13-2011, 05:01 AM

Revoker [while being a real good card] is not maindeckable IMO, because he doesn't fit good enough in the Aggro-role, and he also doesn't fit good enough in the "I win"-role [we didn't play Needles main in the past]

WHY Kher Keep? When does this card does something relevant?

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been active on this new thread. As for my testing right now, revoker is still quite efficient in MD, but I can understand if people choose SB instead. My mentality is that DS has lockpieces and aggro piecs. Although a creature, I just view revoker as a lockpiece w/ the luxury of attacking sometimes :)

As for kher keep, I tried that a while ago with Goblin assault and a hefty amount of artifact (like 4-6). It was a jank list, but the times it worked were priceless. I basically threw bodies equipped withh jitte's/swords all day. Does it kinda work/ has a purpose? Yea. Do I think it's really competitive? Not really. The tokens can always be worked around, and it's stopped once u go for moons.

Tyon

02-13-2011, 05:29 AM

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been active on this new thread. As for my testing right now, revoker is still quite efficient in MD, but I can understand if people choose SB instead. My mentality is that DS has lockpieces and aggro piecs. Although a creature, I just view revoker as a lockpiece w/ the luxury of attacking sometimes :)

I always thought the lockpieces of Dragon Stompy are proactive and not reactive.

Sims

02-13-2011, 10:57 AM

I always thought the lockpieces of Dragon Stompy are proactive and not reactive.

They are. When you sit down across from someone you can gauge their plays and attempt to see what their are playing within the first 1-2 turns. Sometimes it's super obvious, sometimes it isn't, but this will end up playing the same way as Cabal therapy really... A calculated risk that can pay huge dividends.

mercs

02-13-2011, 04:08 PM

I always thought the lockpieces of Dragon Stompy are proactive and not reactive.

Yes, So far all of our locks are proactive, but I don't think there's a problem with having reactive lock pieces as well. Needles have always been a valued asset for dragon stompy even w/ the anti-synegy. Stax also added reactive components in their addition of oblivion ring back in the day.

Plus, the better you get to understand your meta/opponents, this pretty much becomes proactive. Esp. against Taxes, MUD, and tribal, Moons and trini's might not do enough, so you can really help hold down the fort with good revokers.

ivanpei

02-13-2011, 09:12 PM

mercs

02-14-2011, 04:19 AM

Anyone attempting to try a hybrid between dragon stompy and meandeck MUD? IMO Kudoltha forgemaster seems like the I win now card that dragon stompy lacks, giving dragon stompy a "combo" finish. We can't support metalworker, but we can play great furnaces, chrome mox, trinis, challice and lots of other cheap artifacts. We also have seething song-mana monkey for accel that MUD does not have. A sample list:

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere/Koth/Lodestone Golem
4 Revoker

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

4 Kudoltha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel hellkite
3 Wurmcoil

4 City
4 Tomb
6 Mountains
4 Great Furnace

The main question of course is this consistent? I have no idea, but I'm gonna test it. The problem with dragon stompy from my experience was the lack of pure power. The strongest card for the deck was the mighty slogger. But with tarmos and KOTRs, you run out of library just to kill 1 fatty. Also slogger was double red, which is a pain. If you run Kudoltha forgemasters and robots, you don't have to worry about the double red issue and you gain an I win now card in Mr Tinker. Also you can hard cast robots like steel hellkite and wurmcoil easily. IMO wurmcoil and hellkite -> slogger as they are splashier and board changing. Is this jank? No idea, but I'm just throwing this out there.

BTW koth could be another robot-powerer, but he doesnt play friendly with great furnace. Does great furnace count as an artifact when it is under moon? If I'm not mistaken, its still an artifact right?

I tried a hybrid, but it comes out kind of awkward and clunky. U definitely need welder, metalworker and Monolith to power these guys out. Seething Song is nice, but not on the same level as monolith.

The way the math works is that 3 mana off lands/mox/ssg is consistent with stompy, 4 mana is pushing it, and 5 mana is rare to come out fast enough. With Song, u can hit 5 mana reasonably, but not 6 whereas monolith/metalworker can get u there the turn after u hit 2/3 mana.

This is why 3/4/5 have been the special numbers for threats. We've already had Chandra Ablaze, inferno titan, and a plethora of semi-OP dragons to choose from in red, but the moment something hits 6cc for DS, you really have to question it's right to be there. The only exception that's ever been maid reasonably came from a creature that had flying, trample, pro UW, uncounterablility, firebreathing, and morph.

If you get these 6cc's to work somehow though, that'd be great. It'd definitely open new doors for DS.
(and yes, great furnace would be artifact-mountain)

NecroYawgmoth

02-14-2011, 06:48 PM

Played 4-1 with this list in a tournament yesterday:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2-1 against Dredge: lost 1st game, won 2nd game due to Double Pit-Dragon and baaad combatmath from my opponent, won 3rd game with 1st Turn Trini, 2nd turn Magus, 3rd Turn revoker, 4 Turn Crypt, he scooped

1-2 against Merfolk: lost first game because I had not enough critter, won 2nd game due to Tomb->Revoker->Vial, and his hand was like 3 Wastelands + Vial, 3rd game he killed me with nothing than a Cursecatcher and a Mutavault, because I was a bit manascrewed and he had like infinite counters -.-

2-0 against U-W-B Landstill / CABJace: Don't know because I won without seeing anything but lands and counters. G1 Mountain -> SSG -> SSG -> Magus -> resolved -> Win. G2 I started with this hand: Mountain, Mox, Slogger, Tomb, Moon, Moon, Magus. First turn Moon got FoWed, second Turn Moon got Counterspelled, 3rd Turn Magus resolved -> Win

2-0 against Canadian Thresh: He started with fetchland->Go, I attempted 1st-turn Trini but got FoWed, He played Tarmogoyf, I played a Moon and it resolved. Goyf bashed my Koth, later on, and then my life down to 6, than he lost his Goyf due to bad Combatmath and double striking Hellbent Dragon [I lost my Dragon also]. He had nothing on the Board, and I a Moon... He Fire/Iced me to 4, I resolved a CotV1, than I drew Mox,Mox,Mox,City,City, SSG. SSG resolved and bashed him from 14 down to 4, then I resolved a CotV 2 and he scooped... Don't remember the 2nd game exactly... he started with Mongoose, I resolved a Moon somewhere in the game, and won with Hellbent Gathans and RPD.

2-0 against Dark Thresh: I opened with Trini -> FoWed, 2nd Turn Moon -> Win. G2, 1st Turn Trini -> Daze, 2nd Turn Moon -> Blue Elemental Blast, 3rd turn Moon -> Win

6th Place... looks like a miserable Opp-Score

All in all I can say that Revoker is better than Needle, because he actually can swing. The only relevant thing he cannot name is Cephalid Coliseum, but that wasn't needed.

Had a lot of fun to play that deck again on tourneys.

PROPS:
-> got a playset foil RPDs
-> Blood Moon were the MVP, Always play 8 XD
-> Revoker is better than Needle

SLOPS:
-> lost against Merfolk [as usual]
-> Slogger for doing nothing except being a imprint target
-> being mega-tired for the whole Tourney

mercs

02-15-2011, 05:11 AM

Played 4-1 with this list in a tournament yesterday:

Good Job! Btw, How did Koth and ratchet bomb fair in your games?

NecroYawgmoth

02-15-2011, 06:58 AM

Koth is good... He is the next best thing after RPD, Gathans, Magus & SSG [yep, in my opinion he has even more impact than Slogger] A resolved Koth-Emblem is nearly equal to a win [A Koth on an empty field too, but so is Slogger] :laugh:

He didn't do anything in the Tourney except dying from a 5/6 Goyf, which means he was never really useful [but I won that game with 4 life, so maybe it's relevant XD]. ...on the other side Slogger also done nothing on the Torney :wink:

I saw Koth 1 time, and Slogger 2 times, an both times Slogger was the imprint target of choice.

Ratchet Bomb is simply the better Keg
I only boarded it against Dredge and Folk, which means it would had the same impact as Keg would had in this situation. But its better against Enchantress and the like [god beware that I play against it].

The only thing that annoys me is Jitte in the board... I'd like to fit 2-3 in the main, but can't imagine to cut anything for it except maybe 1 Slogger =(

Droxis

02-15-2011, 01:56 PM

Mayhaps moving 1 trinisphere and 1 bloodmoon to the board and moving two jitte to the main?

ForlornEgoist

02-15-2011, 02:08 PM

Blood Moon has value in nearly every MU in some way or the other, so I wouldn't suggesting cutting those. 3sphere you can justify a little bit more since they are poor in multiples, annoying topdecks late-game, and do next to nothing against one of the more annoying MU's for us: Merfolk.

I've had fairly good success not running Slogger (currently running Lord of Shatterskull Pass) but I know many people are reluctant to give him up, so what I would suggest is perhaps:

-1 Slogger, -1 Koth, -1 3sphere
+ 3 Jitte

With all 3 of the removed cards you don't want to see doubles, so I think keeping them sitting at 2 is perfectly fine. Jitte, contrariwise, is something I rarely mind seeing multiples off since it is typically the #1 target for opponents, so having a replacement for a recently destroyed one is definitely useful.

As a general note to all DS players, if you haven't already I would definitely suggest trading out our Needle's for Phyrexian Revoker. It hits all the same relevant cards, its above 1cc, and it's an extra body. Definitely a more viable card for our deck.

Forlorn Egoist

mercs

02-16-2011, 08:54 PM

Hey, does anyone have any good stoneforge mystic tech outside of common artifact hate ( shattering spree, NR, revoker, ignot chewer etc.) Thx.

PS. Please don't say unforge :P

Arsenal

02-19-2011, 05:43 PM

Koth seems like it has the most potential out of the semi-playable cards that have been recently released. Talking about stuff like Koth, Hero of Oxid Ridge, Revoker, etc.

Necro, how much have you been playing with Koth and what are your impressions?

NecroYawgmoth

02-20-2011, 10:56 AM

I don't like Hero of the Oxid Ridge... I don't see where it should be anywhere good in DS [neither I see it to be good in any Legacy deck, Battle Cry is shitty]

Phyrexian Revoker is awesome =D. ->awesome awesome awesome<- I like this guy, and I replaced my Needles with it, I never regretted it so far.

Koth is the next best thing after RPD / Gathans / Magus IMO [like stated above]. Sometimes you need to protect him for a turn, but it's always worth it. The only MUS where he doenst shine are Goblins and Merfolk so far... Only problem I have with Koth is that he isn't THAT good, if you have at least 1 other creature. Koth is better than Mauler / Sulfur / RAkroma, and possibly better than the level-up dudes [cant say that for sure -> I always played them WITH Koth together, because they synergize very well with Koth]

NecroYawgmoth

02-28-2011, 09:59 AM

doubleposting but there is a short DS-review on starcity, so I post it...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21194_Building_A_Legacy_Mooning_Your_Opponent_For_Fun_And_Profit.html

I cant understand how to play only 3 Gathans and 3 RPDs for SoB&M, but okay... discuss?

bganns

02-28-2011, 11:32 AM

Why don't use Avatar of Discord?

Aznopium

02-28-2011, 12:16 PM

Why don't use Avatar of Discord?

Why would we use it for D stompy?

We want to use Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors to get it stuff out a turn or two earlier, so we want to run 2R crits, not hybrid R/B cards which a crappy drawback that won't be useful until we have Gathan Raiders in play.

mercs

02-28-2011, 09:00 PM

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21194_Building_A_Legacy_Mooning_Your_Opponent_For_Fun_And_Profit.html

Nice intro read. I've only tested sobm on mws. So far it works pretty well, but his list is still a little awkward.
I would've gone at least -1 slogger, -1 trini, +1 raiders, +1 RPD. He's not claiming to be an expert though so, not gonna stress on his list.

TraxDaMax

03-03-2011, 03:22 AM

Thanks for the nice review of the deck! Gives a lot of tips on why certain cards get played/ don't get played anymore etc..

May I add a little something. Not totally unimportant but..

Phyrexian Revoker

It can now hit Hierarch and Birds, which a peedle can't.
But it can't hit fetch/waste/ Academy Ruins/ Other lands you don't want to see.

ForlornEgoist

03-03-2011, 08:31 AM

Firstly, I very much doubt naming Revoker on Hierarch/Birds would be an insanely relevant play for us. Yea, it denies them some mana accel, but decks that run said creatures (primarily Survival) don't rely heavily on said accel, and the Exalted still triggers. Secondly, in regards to the fact it can't hit lands: if your 8 MD Moon effects aren't sufficient for land hate, then we have bigger problems beyond Revoker not hitting them. :rolleyes:

Revoker is amazing because he's an extra beater that sits above the typical Chalice @1. Do we sometimes set Chalice @2? Sure. But it is a far less common charge counter setting for decks that use Chalice (DS, Aggro Loam, Stax).

Forlorn Egoist

Tivon

03-03-2011, 11:32 AM

the synergy of moon shutting off duals and fetches, and revoker shutting off colored mana is nice. I just personally don't choose to run it. Revoker can potentially be the difference between a player getting out from under moon and being stuck under it

gieli0

03-03-2011, 02:41 PM

and now we can actualy name LED

Tacosnape

03-03-2011, 03:16 PM

Revoker also hits Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Pernicious Deed, and random occasional things like Vampire Hexmage and Goblin Charbelcher. He'll stop Gempalm Incinerator from eating your Pit Dragon. He'll stop Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte from getting attached to stuff. And it IS relevant that he hits everything in the format except basics that nullifies the effectiveness of Blood Moons, including Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, etc. He's a monster. Period.

I'm not sure this deck has been viable for a long time, but if it's going to be, you need to maindeck Phyrexian Revoker. It'll add another skill level to the deck, but it's so worth it.

This is my current list.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
3 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide

SB:
4 Stingscourger
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Arena of the Ancients
2 Manic Vandals

NecroYawgmoth

03-03-2011, 04:44 PM

Nice list, Taco...but don't you think it's better to run the full set of Songs and cut on Sloggers instead vice versa?

mercs

03-04-2011, 03:22 AM

I agree with Tacos. Revoker's hits are very devastating with good intuition. The set is still fairly new, but revoker has been great in testing.

Also, I've been getting into the habit of siding out songs sometimes, which has worked out really well. In my mox tournament, i had G2/3 running only 2-3 songs a lot of times. The logic for why I did it was that if the deck establishes significant control/removal to make things into an attrition war, I'd rather have a SB hate than mana accel. Yea, it goes against the "all in red" feel, but I personally liked how my deck was rounded out.

mercs

03-07-2011, 01:03 AM

Hey guys. got an embarrasingly bad tourney report. 23 man 5 round swiss.
basically running hellbent stompy trying out maindeck revoker and 1 sword of body and mind.

R1 - UGB tempo/team america?
G1 - t1 magus resolves. SoBM prevents jace and shows me what he's playing :D.
G2 - he thoughtseizes, fow's, COUNTERSPELLS!, until he locks with deed and jace ftw. sadness.
G3 I throw locks at him to counter. put gathan raiders out. he puts out deed. I use revoker! He reveals his removal is go for throat instead of snuff out (lucks), promptly killing my gathan. I get there though 2 sloggers.

R2 - Ths jankiest mono black rogue i've ever seen. (got wo winners through a bye and paired up with me. FML! spoiler => i lose)
*No Need to read, I'm just venting*
G1 - t1 chalice @ 1. t2 gathan. t3 sobm equip and attack. (he doesn't play anything for 5 turns) I start milling ridiculousness. I saw Avatar of woe, sorin markov, plague wind, and banefull omen. wow. i also saw royal assasin, go for throat, edicts, snuff, and doomblade, which tells me i got a big chance of losing to this guy. I win g1, but....
G2 - everything i play gets removed, i never get chalice out to stop any of it, and he beats me down with ridiculousness. He's like a 14 yr old kid that literally waited to kill me with sorin markov's mindslaver ability using my tombs. :(
G3 - at this point i wanna shoot myself and i'm in store for more suffering. He cuts me good, causing me to mull to 4-5. I get no land, but he refuses to kill me. He literally waits till time is out and kills me on turn 4 of overtime. (half of me wants to strangle him)
*venting finished*

R3 - Junk (more sadness. imo worst mu. i face this guy a lot. he placed 3rd at scg san jose and i pretty much already know i lost)
G1 - he wins die roll and rolls me with mox, basics, thoughtseize and goyfs/ kotr
G2 - he rolls me again with mox, basics, Maelstrom pulse, Deed, swords, and goyfs.

R4 - Reanimator.
G1 - t1 chalice@1 gets countered. he goes islands and careful study. I resolve magus, and he never reaches black mana.
G2 - He plays islands and preps for a sick play. I play trini, he dazes, i use ssg, he uses the dazed island in hand to discard to FOIL the Trinisphere! he also gets to pitch inkwell from foil as well. I pass and he goes petal petal exhume. Looks bad. I play magus. he swings. i top jitte and attack! he swings. I top SoBM. He swings, jitte saves me. Soon he realizes I'm gonna win through life gain, pro blue and wolf tokens. lol :D

R5 - Spring Tide (This guy has a crazy UB list that took 5th in a 59 man,look up Bryce Yockey to see list.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8090-Top-8-Decklists/page10)
G1 - Chalice@1 gets there.
G2 - He discards magus, counters trinisphere. Beat him down a little, but he goes off t4/5 ish?
G3 - i mull to 6. yikes! bait w/ t1 dragon, but he doesn't counter. trinisphere next turn is good! I eventually hit magus and luck out.

so 3-2, and a 10th place finish. Miss t8 by tiebreakers (Damn u black rogue!)
+ revoker is beastly
+ SoBM was really good, but not a staple. Fun and kind of gave me an "i win" feeling whenever it resolved though.
- Small turn out resulting in bad prize pool. (Moat was advertized)
- rogue decks getting byes
- inability to beat junk with moxes (help plz!)

Shawon

03-08-2011, 03:08 AM

@Tacosnape:

Does Ratchet Bomb serve a particular use against a specific matchup? I think Ratchet seems like a versatile catch-all answer, but it's horrible at its main function, answering. Against creatures, it's slower than Pyroclasm, Stingscourger, and even sometimes slower than Arc Slogger. Against everything else noncreature, you have Pithing Needle/Beetle or Manic Vandal.

Arena of the Ancients :eek: Very innovative find, hats off to you.

Ozymandias

03-08-2011, 05:25 PM

NecroYawgmoth

03-08-2011, 08:41 PM

Revoker is good... even if he gets removed [less removal for RPD], Taco is right with Revoker main, as I board him in in 80% of the time, and he helps to hit the permanents that ignore Moon [Vials, Moxen, Mana-creatures].

I am very happy with my build right now, which looks like this:

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Blood Moon
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

/////

4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
3 Anarchy
3 Boil [could be anything]

Only 7 cards that cost 4, and 3 ot them can produce mana [untapping with 4 lands, and maintain hellbent never felt saver] =D

Radiant

03-09-2011, 05:38 AM

2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

What about Lady Latex? Meta-choice?

Jonathan Alexander

03-09-2011, 09:57 AM

Jaya Ballard is pretty strong. It's spotremoval/reach and wins against Merfolk. It's also nice with Koth.
Oh, and I agree on Phyrexian Revoker being awesome. In testing it proved that it could beat greedy hands easily when combined with another screwpiece.

Shawon

03-09-2011, 10:41 AM

- inability to beat junk with moxes (help plz!)

Ratchet Bomb is the droids you're looking for. My list hasn't changed in a while, but I did pitch FTK for ratchet Bomb #3 and Powder Keg 1 (Might as well, right?). I like Bomb because it's a permanent solution, not one that gets removed--which happens all the time to Revoker. Also, I like having at least some mass removal potential versus tokens, etc. I do miss having 21 creatures and 24 after boarding.

mox diamond - You still run Trinisphere and Revoker to deal with Mox Diamond so dealing with Diamond isn't that different than dealing with Hierarch besides being able to kill Hierarch with Jaya. Otherwise, you might have to consider casting Chalice at 0 but you have to face the risk of shutting off your own Mox and Gathan Raiders. But sometimes that play is worth it if you have a turn 1 Magus down.

Ratchet Bomb - What I'm trying to drive home is that I think Ratchet Bomb is a versatile solution to permanents, but it's BAD at it. From what I understand, the only token generating cards that you need to worry about are: Thopter Foundry, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Sigil of the Empty Throne, and Empty the Warrens, and Bridge from Below, and you are running cards that already prevent or deal with these cards.

ForlornEgoist

03-09-2011, 12:35 PM

I don't think many people here are overly fond of Ratchet Bomb, but unlike Powder Keg it does also hit enchantments and Planeswalkers *mumbles* but it can't blow up artifact lands. =( Sometimes it's just nice to have some type of board clear, albeit one that in some cases depending on the threat can take 2-3 turns to rack up the necessary charge counters.

@ Phyrexian Revoker MD:

I have to say that I am indeed intrigued by this as it seems that in nearly every MU I am making some excuse to board in Pithing Needles (still working on getting my Revoker playset) so the MD slots are entirely justifiable. I think I'll plan on playtesting this and seeing how it works. Has it been success for other players?

Forlorn Egoist

Shawon

03-09-2011, 01:40 PM

Against Planeswalkers though, you already run Revoker. Unless you preemptively cast Ratchet Bomb, it's never going to kill planeswalkers fast enough for it to matter. I'd honesty run Pithing Needle alongside Phyrexian Revoker over Ratchet Bomb if planeswalkers are a concern.

And against enchantments, the problematic enchantments against Dragon Stompy are Moat, Pernicious Deed, and essentially any white enchantments Enchantress plays MD and post-board. Ratchet Bomb is the tits against Moat, I'll give you that, but do you really need it? Moat isn't really easy to cast with Moons in play and you can win via the hard way ala Pit Dragon, Arc-Slogger & Koth's ultimate. Revoker and Needle stop Pernicious Deed cold. Against Enchantress, Anarchy owns them unless they have Karmic Justice on the table, and isn't susceptible to O-Ring or Seal of Primordium like Ratchet Bomb.

I addressed this to Tacosnape but I'll ask anyone: What are specific matchups that Ratchet Bomb is the best card to bring in g2 and g3?

EDIT: On another topic, is Red Sun's Zenith too janky for Dragon Stompy? I think it might serve as good reach plan later in the game. It's also effective somewhat-recurring removal. It's not bad at taking down Tarmogoyfs, especially considering the fact that it shuffles itself after resolution so it doesn't incidentally pump the Goyf you just damaged or pump your opponent's subsequent Goyfs.

Dark Ritual

03-09-2011, 03:47 PM

What would red sun's zenith be replacing again? And banefire seems much better anyways or even demonfire. RSZ seems awful.

Phyrexian revoker is the nuts in here. It punishes people for keeping one landers with sensei's divining top by naming top, names 'walkers, gets pridemage...the card is very good and can go with mana denial by naming mox diamond as well. I'm with tacosnape you should MD 4 of the card always. Also helps against combo by naming LED which is awesome since you just took their most powerful card and reduced it to nothing unless they take a turn to answer revoker at which point you can lay down more lock pieces or a RPD.

Moat isn't the best vs. us because of koth's ultimate, RPD can fly over it, and you can deal 8 damage with arc slogger. Moon effects are bad against them as they run at most 5 nonbasics those being taiga, savannah, and serra's sanctum. If they draw a fetch off the top I guess it gets hit but then they have red mana for words of war. Anarchy is king in that MU though.

This deck should be really powerful if it's built right it has all the tools it needs to win.

mercs

03-10-2011, 05:04 AM

Thx for the tips guys! Funny thing about the revoker and ratchet plan is that I've had unfortunate experiences with both plans against junk against the same guy. lol

I ran 3x ratchets a few months ago, but when I put it out early, he played conservative and removed it. When I did it late, I would get beat out b4 it could do anything. I realize it's technically one of the best options. I'm just sad we don't have better :P.

As for revoker, i revokerred his mox, but it just ran into an StP. I feel mox wrecks me bc, if i magus, he can stp it, and if i go chalice/revoker, I give him time to fetch basics. This puts a lot of pressure on me to get a moon+chalice@0 first turn and kill him b4 he reaches a swamp.

All in all, I just feel it'll always be a bad mu that I try to avoid. More unfortunate is that like 4-5 of them hit top 16 in scg edison lol.

On revoker in general, he's definitely a beast that I'm sticking with. He was always a welcome draw, and single handedly beat team america for me on the draw (shut down deed).

NecroYawgmoth

03-11-2011, 01:37 AM

ivanpei

03-11-2011, 02:15 AM

I kinda stopped playing this deck for a while (ever since that pesky noble heirarch was printed). With Revoker though, I think this deck can be competitive again. I play revoker in DnT and it's nuts. Is Koth good enough to push it over the top? I am also planning to cut the seething songs and sloggers for more threats. Here's what I plan to try:

4 Bloodmoon
4 Magus
4 Challice
4 Revoker
3 Trini

4 SSG
4 RPD
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Koth
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

2 Jitte

4 Chrome
8 Double Lands
10 Mountains

I like Lord of Shatterskull Pass @ 4cc because he's huge. IMO, its either him or Mauler and I felt Lord of Shatterskull Pass is better. We're pretty clogged @ the 4, but since I don't play songs + slogger anymore, I wanted something bomby. Shatterskull is also an outlet for Koth Mana if you are facing a stalled board. I don't think you'd get to Level 6 very often but that seems like an awesome play.

Tivon

03-11-2011, 01:08 PM

Taco... please tell me.

Which artifact is so dangerous that we need to board Manic Vandals?

And MUCH more important: Against which decks you board Stingscourger??? The only MU I can really imagine to board them is Sneak & Tell.
Is that so? I assume you play in a huge Sneak & Tell-meta with 4 Scourgers AND 2 Arenas?:really:

It's also a solid tempo play against tempo oriented decks, and decks that got down mana producers off of dual lands. Bouncing a tombstalker is pretty damn good. Bouncing a heirarch on like turn 2 or three after turn 1 blood moon or chalice is also pretty nice.

The fact that it also hits eldrazi is huge

Shawon

03-11-2011, 01:44 PM

Which artifact is so dangerous that we need to board Manic Vandals?

Ensnaring Bridge. Single-handedly owns you. You can argue that Ratchet Bomb can address this but the deck that runs Ensnaring Bridge is UWx Thopters, which also run Pithing Needle and Enlightened Tutor to find it.

EDIT:

4 Bloodmoon
4 Magus
4 Challice
4 Revoker
3 Trini

4 SSG
4 RPD
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Koth
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

2 Jitte

4 Chrome
8 Double Lands
10 Mountains

You shouldn't cut Seething Song just because you aren't running Arc-Slogger anymore. Seething Song has amazing synergy with RPD and helps you cast your 4cc bombs in the first place. If you don't want to run Seething Song, you need to replace it with another mana source. Most likely acceleration, of which I can think of Rite of Flame and Desperate Ritual as legitimate albeit not effective substitutes.

ivanpei

03-11-2011, 11:06 PM

I've been unimpressed with the Trinis. I don't always have 3 mana on T1 and I am not always on the play. I think I'll ship them to the SB. I'll replace them with seething songs again. Thanks for the tip. BTW, I feel that this could be an equipment stompy deck again. We have + 4 weenies to carry equipment (revoker) and with Sword of Body and Mind IMO is the ideal equipment for this deck. Pro Green and bear making seems perfect when you are locking them out. The problem with equipment in this deck previously was insufficient dudes and terrible against control. With more bodies now and an equipment that makes bodies, it should be ok. Or is Slogger better than the Sword?

- 3 Trini, -3 Koth, + 4 Song + 2 Sword of body and mind/Slogger.

I'm not sure Koth is best for this deck. He can't really defend himself. He is only really bomby when I am winning. It's terrible when I am staring down a goyf and I can't defend koth. He dies to one swing from Goyf/Kotr or an exalted Necatl/warmonk.

Shawon

03-11-2011, 11:48 PM

Moving Trinis to the SB is a judgment call. Even when you're on the draw, it's still relatively useful if you can cast it turn 1 but I definitely know how sucky it is game 2 and you're on the draw. It feels really pointless to even cast it. But honestly, it's still relatively useful to stop the opponent from blowing you out even if they're not combo.

I run 1 Sword of Bowel Movement. Just one. It addresses the problem of the deck staring down Goyfs or Knights or Merfolk so that's why I run it, but I wouldn't add more than one or add any other equipment. Jitte is powerful but it doesn't actually address any problems.

Yeah, I'm starting to doubt the strength of Koth. It's great while you're ahead and it's great just to break a stalemate, but yeah it barely provides any defense and its acceleration is kinda moot if you have access to 2RR by then. I did win one sick game versus this Balancing Act deck where I sacced my Koth to give my Mountains the power to burn, the next turn my opponent casted Obliterate, I tap my four mountains to ping him down to 2 life, and all I have left is Blood Moon. My turn, I play a Tomb, which is now a Mountain, and then tap it twice over my turn and the next to kill him.

ivanpei

03-12-2011, 04:06 AM

Tested a bit with an updated list today. Sword of body and mind and revoker are ridiculous. I cut shatterskull because slogger seems more bomby. Revoker really helps against pesky vials/lavamancers. I love how I can chalice first then drop a protected revoker. Sword of body and mind has the most relevant colours. It lets you break bant/folk/zoo stalemates. Koth is win more, I won't run it. Zoo is an excellent mu if you draw either moon or chalice. Magus is sucky but with chalice protection also means GG.

Goblins is really hard. I hate losing my revoker to gempalms. Stingscourger is also a pain. Gobbos removal is not 1cc and is hard to chalice out. Any advice on good board cards?

Arsenal

03-12-2011, 10:41 AM

Pyrokinesis, Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb, and luck. Sometimes they just flood the board with green men and there's nothing you can do about it. The flipside is, they run very little removal in general, and you too can sometimes just drop a couple giants on the board by turn 2 and win out from there.

NecroYawgmoth

03-15-2011, 02:27 AM

mercs

03-15-2011, 03:41 AM

I don't understand why people find Goblins hard.

I always have problems with Merfolk, but not that much problems with Goblins... Maybe Jitte helps against Goblins? Although Slogger & Jitte & Sideboardstuff should be enough against Goblins.

---> Don't forget Revoker on Gempalm, either ;)

Oh, and btw, I updated the OP-Post a few minutes ago with Revoker and stuff =) still need someone who helps me at the MU-Analysises, anyone there =P?

Hey, I agree with the goblins comment. It's really hard for them to win g2/3

As for MU, I've been maining DS for 3-4 yrs (i think lol) but I'm not constantly going out to tourneys every week, so I'm prob not the best source. Here's my approx. results for best out of 10 standards (Non-tourney and tourney versions)

Non-Tourney Testing, Tourney

Affinity...............................8/2, 9/1

Aggro Loam.........................3/7, 5/5

Belcher..............................8/2, 9/1

Bant Aggro/NO Bant...............6/4, 10/0

Burn..................................5/5, 4/6

CB/Top:
UBW.................................10/0, 9/1
UBGW...............................10/0, 9/1
UGW Thopter.......................6/4, N/A
UGRW...............................6/4, 6/4

Dredge..............................7/3, 7/3

Elves!................................7/3, 10/0

Goblins:
RB...................................5/5, 8/2
R/RG/RGB..........................7/3, 8/2

LandStill:
DreadStill............................5/5, 2/8
UGB..................................8/2, 10/0

Merfolk:
U....................................7/3, 6/4
UB...................................8/2, 8/2
UW..................................3/7, 0/10

MUD................................8/2, N/A

Rock/Junk..........................4/6, 1/9

Sneaky/NO/Show.................1/9, N/A

SprinG Tide........................7/3, 10/0

Stax................................5/5, N/A

Taxes:
W....................................5/5, N/A
GW..................................2/8, N/A
BW..................................7/3, N/A
GWB................................3/7, 0/10

Team America.....................6/4, 10/0

TES.................................8/2, 10/0

Zoo.................................6/4, 9/1

Shawon

03-15-2011, 04:29 PM

Oh, and btw, I updated the OP-Post a few minutes ago with Revoker and stuff =) still need someone who helps me at the MU-Analysises, anyone there =P?

Just read the OP for the first time. Bloodrock Cyclops. Can't believe that was ever run in an iteration of Dragon Stompy [/barf]. But good work on the primer.

black lotus

03-16-2011, 06:01 PM

I wrote an article on blackborder.com about this deck. I think some of you might consider this useful. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them right in the comment section or here =) It can also be used as an input for further discussion, for example about Lodestone Golem, Seething Song or mainboard Phyrexian Revoker!

enjoy: http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/10972

ForlornEgoist

03-18-2011, 01:14 AM

@ black lotus Hey, great article! It was a very interesting read and for the most part I agreed on your analysis of the deck although I think you're MU analysis could use some work. Enchantress, for example. As an Enchantress player I can honestly tell you pre/post board you have a rather good chance at winning the MU.

Chalice @ 1 shuts off our 8 accelerants (Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth) which is actually relevant sometimes, particularly when we mulligan (as our deck is less forgiving than Stompy if we mulligan to 4/5). You also disable Enlightened Tutor.
Chalice @ 2 shuts off Sterling Grove, Runed Halo, and Argothian Enchantress. Shutting off 4/8 Enchantress effects AND a tutor is highly, if not more so, relevant than a Chalice @ 1.

In either case, if we have an Enchantress effect on the field we still get to cycle off the cast card, but you reduce our mana, tutoring ability, and esp. our Enchantment count for Serra Sanctum.

3sphere is incredibly as it will essentially slow us down from casting 5-8 spells in a single turn down to 2-4 based on the game state.

Moon effects are probably the weakest of Stompy hate, but they shut off Serra's Sanctum which can be enough late game.

Phyrexian Revoker hits Grove/Words of War. Shutting off a tutor/win con seems viable.

Yeah, Enchantress does run Halo to disable some of your beaters and O-Ring to remove lock pieces, but ultimately most builds will run 1-2 Halo and 2 O-Ring. It's not difficult to play around 4 cards. Remember that Enchantress stabilizes on average turns 4-6, and you have the ability to lock us down turns 1-3. Elephant Grass can be bothersome, but you run 8 2-lands, so paying to attack is not an issue. Also remember that every turn we pay for the cumulitive upkeep is mana we aren't spending to improve our game state. Similiary, Solitary Confinment is only ever played if either A) We're desperate to delay, or B) We have 2+ Enchantress effects. As for Moat, majority of Enchantress players don't have this card due to it's price, so in most scenario's you don't even have to worry about it. While you will be essentially screwed if we drop it since all Stompy has is RPD, you can still SB hate games 2/3.

In regards to SB Stompy typically has better selections than Enchantress for this MU:
Stompy: Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg, Firespout/Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout, Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker
Enchantress: Circle of Protection: Red, Runed Halo, Aura of Silence, Humility

Enchantress SB essentially boils down to 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 11 free slots. So there will be much variance and you might see more cards than the ones I listed, but those are really the only cards Enchantress would have that would be SB-worthy against you (beyond weirdos such as me who have various SB shennanigans like a Wishboard :P). The CoP:R is actually rather rare since most metas are running rampant with Combo, Rock, and varying degrees of CounterTop, so I very much doubt you'd even see that. Aura of Silence is meant more for the mirror MU, but I could see some Enchantress players SBing this in as extra outs to DS's lock pieces. Humility is a stupid card to run for Enchantress and I would never advocate ANY Enchantress run this as it wrecks our Argothians/Angels but I feel I should mention it for the sake of variety and the fact that there are still advocates of this card.

Bomb is excellent as a board clear against us for obvious reasons. You'll really only have to get up to 1/2 charge counters most of the time which is quite reasonable. Don't use the, "but they have 1-2 Replenish so why bother with board clear!" argument. Just because we have board-recovery cards doesn't make board clear any less useful, and honestly people like to believe we draw that card more than we actually do. We have no way to tutor it up so we can only draw into them via insane cantrip. And based on the current popular decks I don't think it's unreasonable to say most Enchantress players have bumped down to 1 Replenish MD. Keg, while not as amazing, does it's part. It can remove Argothians/Angel tokens. 'Nuff said.

'Spout/'Clasm/Fallout are not as amazing as Bomb/Keg, but they still kill Argothians which is relevant.

Needle/Revoker on Sterling Grove remove 4/6(7) of our possible tutors, and it can kill of 1/2(3) win-cons: Words of War.

Some Enchantress builds run Emrakul, the Aeons Torn but honestly don't worry about this card. Seriously, don't even consider it a threat. He's a win-more, throw-salt-in-the-still-festering-wound card for this deck. By the time we can ramp to 15 mana we have won the game and have the ability to kill you however we want. Playing Emrakul is just a way to show off. 99% of the time he's a dead card for us. The only times he's even useful are either A) Mirror match, or B) Painter-Grindstone, and in situation B we'll still lose as they've milled our entire deck and we'll lose next turn unless we can resolve a Replenish on the turn we draw Emrakul.

Iona, Shield of Emeria is being replaced for Emrakul by more and more Enchantress players (thankfully) and I've used her in my Wish board to varying degrees of success, but she's intended more for the mirror/control MU. You really shouldn't expect to see her too much, and even if your opponent runs her in the deck the most likely course of action (assuming they know how to play the deck) is they'll go for the Sigil and ramp out Angel tokens.

Granted I've oversimplified a few things but overall DS has a much higher success rate than Enchantress.

One tip I'd like you to keep in mind that I see so many people I play against not opt to do: play out the match even if you know the Enchantress player has that particular game (assuming time is not an issue). Yea, you may get bored just sitting there but most Enchantress players tend to play carelessly when they're trying to win the game and they'll just randomly throw whatever enchantments they can onto the field. This is a mistake that many players (including myself) make quite often. Get as much information as you can about their deck. How many #'s they're running of a single card, what they may have opted to SB in against you, etc. More information is never a bad thing and can significantly improve how you'll play games 2/3.

Forlorn Egoist

GGoober

03-18-2011, 05:37 PM

Shawon

03-19-2011, 12:47 AM

Anarchy is a good red-spell against Enchantress/Moat/Humility/Elspeth. It's a little narrow, but if you're thinking about improving a narrow matchup like Enchantress/Thopters, this is the card that you need.

Also, is 2 Equipment MD enough for Dragonstompy to hold its edge against other decks? I would imagine, moving 3spheres to the SB (they suck in this meta right now unless you can go first with 3 mana, i.e. win die roll, open with 5 cards to drop 3sphere, not too likely) and upping +2 more equipment to a total of 4, mabye 2 jitte/2 SofI is good in today's meta (tribal/Hierarch/vial)

Yeah, Anarchy is hella needed. Good against Death & Taxes as well. And Progenitus.

2 Equipment is definitely fine. This is my personal opinion, but to me Sword of Fire and Ice is the most overrated sword (or equipment in general) in the cycle. It has its uses against tribal, but Sword of Body and Mind is the sword the deck actually NEEDS. SoFI might make your Gathan Raiders big enough to power through Tarmogoyf and Knight, but SoBM makes your Gathan Raiders ignore your opponent's big blockers and provide another blocker (2/2 Wolf). Furthermore, if your Gathan Raiders goes farming, you have a Wolf left behind to pick up the Sword and keep ignoring Goyfs.

ForlornEgoist

03-19-2011, 12:57 AM

Sword of Light and Shadow could also be argued for the slot as well. I don't think the pro-Goyf is a valid argument as the static +2/+2 typically bumps the creature above Goyf (assuming it's equippted to a beater like Slogger/Raider/RPD/Shatterskull) but with the rise of Rock/Deadguy and 4cCounterTop pro-White seems like it'd be better for us to have (anti-StP/PtE/Vindicate). Granted the token generated is useful however the mill effect is useless. Both effects from SoLS have uses for us.

Of course, either one is perfectly justified for it's use, I just prefer to give my guys protection from annoying spot removal (although I have seen a number of Rock players begin to run Go for the Throat as additional spot removal in the SB over PtE lately).

Forlorn Egoist

black lotus

03-21-2011, 10:19 AM

@Forlorn Egoist: Thx for the feedback and the insight on the Enchantress matchup. I consider Trinisphere completely useless when on the draw though. Most spells cost 2+ at which point Golem will do all the work by itself and Trinisphere gets redundant. Also, reaching 3 mana on turn 2 is so common that I wouldn't bother throwing down Trinisphere. It obviously is good on the play, but that goes for almost every matchup ;)
I don't even considered something like Emrakul because my safest bet is to stall the development of your gameplan. Once you reach that amount of mana / cards, it is lights out anyways. That is also the main reason why I don't think it's a good matchup for me because most cards don't do as much as they would in other matchups. Moon effects are almost worthless and boarded out, always, and Chalice of very useful, but not as deadly as against, lets say Threshhold where it shuts down most of their deck. Revoker is fine, Trinisphere is fine when on the play, Golem is actually good, Chalice is fine, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure if that is enough.

@Metalwalker: I stated in the comments of the article that I would cut Seething Song entirely as well as 1 Sphere to make room for two Revokers and two Jittes. If you don't run Arc Slogger, you need additional ways to deal with creatures and going up to five equipments seems like a good plan to me.
About the Sword discussion: I still think SoFaI is by far the best option against an unknown field or a Swarmaggro heavy meta. If there is A LOT of Bant and Junk around, consider the BW Sword but don't forget that your critters can be killed in response to equipping unless he is tapped out or you have Chalice @1 in play. So be careful about investing 5 mana in the early turns precombat if you could resolve another lockpiece instead. Protection from removal is less important to me than getting the full effect out of the Sword as soon as it connects as well as being able to walk by potential chumpblockers. An active SoFaI kills both Merfolk and Goblin all by itself while you might be forced to stay back to block with SoLaS in these matchups and you really want to attacking with your Swords.

@Shawon: Anarchy depends on your metagame. I happen to play far more often against tribaldecks, threshold, affinity, storm etc rather than staxx and enchantress and unless you expect either of them to T8 in every tournament you attend, I try to focus my sideboard on the common matchups and avoid narrow cards like Anarchy. Nonetheless, it IS a great card and I highly recommend playing it if you know you will be facing Humilities!

Shawon

03-21-2011, 03:39 PM

If you don't run Arc Slogger, you need additional ways to deal with creatures and going up to five equipments seems like a good plan to me.

Going up to five equipments is never a good plan. If you have space for five equipments, why not just cut 4 of them and add 4 SLogger? That seems like a way better plan against creatures.

mercs

03-22-2011, 02:57 AM

Going up to five equipments is never a good plan. If you have space for five equipments, why not just cut 4 of them and add 4 SLogger? That seems like a way better plan against creatures.

In his list, he runs 4 lodestone and cuts song, so it'll be really hard for him to get slogs out.

ivanpei

03-22-2011, 03:11 AM

I play 4 songs but just 2 sloggers. We aren't kidding anyone and this is not an attrition deck. We need to be as explosive as possible. I agree, 3sphere really sucks right now. I play 4 equipments, with 2 being Jitte and the other Sword of Body and Mind. The Pro Tarmogoyf is very relevant as it turns SSG, Magus and Revoker into instant threats. SOLS on a 2/2 is still smaller than Goyf most of the time and you will be in a staring match against a goyf. Also if a player has removal, he will cast it in response to the equip. If he draws it after you have equip SOLS and swung, great you have protection. It's the same for SOBM, if you have equipped and swung, and your opponent then topdecks removal, you still have a 2/2 bear to pick up the sword and continue swinging. So being Pro removal is not a good argument. I have been in way too many situations when I have a weenie weilding SOFI/SOLS staring at a Goyf, unable to swing. I much prefer SOBM due to this.

I also thought about why not 4 sloggers? The answer is: sloggers are notoriously hard to cast without Songs. Having multiple sloggers stuck in hand is just extremely annoying. If you have a moon on the table, sloggers are event harder to cast. With SOBM at least you can split up the mana cost and get in there with a plethora of weenies. Before revoker was printed, I would have stuck with just 2 equips and 4 sloggers. But with so many weenies that can carry equipment, I'm playing 4 equips now and 2 sloggers.

Endrju

03-22-2011, 12:18 PM

Have you tested Sword of Feast and Famine? It seems to me as being slightly better than SoBaM, for it does the same thing you need SoBaM for - it gives your guys protection from Goyfs - without accelerating Dredge/Loams/Lands/Tresholds/Reanimators (if anyone plays the last one still ;) ). Is the lone 2/2 wolf better than possibility to put more guys into play? (or even if we don't have more creatures in hand, we still can multiply our moons/chalices/trinis to reach hellbent faster...)
I haven't played DS for some time, but on paper SoFaF looks like the best equip choice (besides Jitte obviously) for this deck.

Arsenal

03-22-2011, 12:27 PM

The problem is that SoFaF rewards you for having a full grip of cards to play with your newly available mana. Dragon Stompy will not be able to fully take advantage of the "untap all your lands" effect as Dragon Stompy unloads it's hand in the first 1-4 turns generally.

endijian

03-26-2011, 12:10 PM

Hi!

I recently found new interest in DS, and I thought I mise put up my current list for discussion:

11 Mountain
4 Tomb
4 City

4 Mox

4 Spirit Guide
4 Magus
4 Raiders
4 Pit Dragon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinissphere

2 Sword of Something and Another
1 Jitte

Some comments:

- No Seething Song/Arcslogger
I think I am one of the biggest Slogger-Fans around, but with Revoker in the mix, I favor a little bit more consistency over explosiveness.
I know, explosiveness is the most important asset of DS, But Revoker, as another piece of disruption, slows the deck down a turn. I do not want to play a Revoker (too) early - i. e. first or second turn off a song together with a moon / trini. So i think i can safely cut the Song. And without song, sadly no Slogger.
Speaking of consistency, another Mountain is in order, I think.

- Lord of Shatterskull Pass.
An unsafe candidate. Regrettably, the best offensive Four-Drop. I am contemplating the other usual "fringe"-cards (Taurean Mauler, Sulfur Elemental, Randomkroma) in this slot. Another card I tested was Kargan Dragonlord, but I am overloading on Two-Drops. I only know one thing for sure: I do not want FTK...

- No Koth
For a mono-red Deck, DS plays to few mountains too use Koth. I had games that were like
1st turn Chalice1;
2nd turn Trini;
3rd turn Koth with following cards in play: 1 Mox, 1 Mountain, 1 Ancient Tomb. Not that great...

- The Equipment: Might become 3 Swords, I am not sure which.
Jitte becomes worse in a Deck with Revoker. I cannot afford to trade the Revoker (or Magus, btw) to start generating Jitte-Counters. Swords on the other hand turn the equipped creature into a monster right away. Which is necessary, since Revoker adds another Dork to the Deck.
I am leaning towards SoFoF. Pro:Green is huge, and even though I really like the Wolf token, the Mill Trigger is useless, bordering to dangerous (Add SDT and Sylvan library to the aforementioned list of Graveyard decks).

NecroYawgmoth

03-26-2011, 06:19 PM

Hey there... Well I had the same thoughts about Revoker, and I was thinking a LOT about the Seething or Trini blabla, and... testing approves that Trini and a bit more consisesty is better than explosiveness and first turn Seething. Seething needs another accelerator, and if we accelereate into a first turn Slogger and they have removal, we have just lost. On the other Hand... Testings had shown that SoB&M is super awesome.

So if we take a Sloggerless / Songless List with more equipment, I end up with this:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind [ridicoulous]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

// Sideboard
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
1 Trinisphere

57/15

That leaves 3 Slots in the main. I think I would possibly play a 3rd Sword... that still leaves 2 Slots... What would be the best choice here? Shouldn't cost that much mana, because of missing Songs. Nevertheless it MUST be a creatures I think.

My Thoughts:

Slogger is too clumsy, and seems nearly impossible to cast constantly without Song.
Mauler is only good if the rest of the deck doesn't work, so he is a no go as 2-off also.
Sulfur is way to weak in modern Legacy
Akroma is bad without Song.
Fortune Thief is a weak choice in removal-infested legacy and can't swing.
Koth is winmore, only good with Moon/Trini and not good in the aggro-shifting legacy meta.
Lodestone Golem is an creature that is only good as a 4-off IMO, but not in this deck [or maybe yes?]. Nevertheless, he suffers from being an artifact.

so what's left? Lord of Clumsyskull Ass? Jaya Ballard, Latex Mage? Flameslash Kavu?

What do you guys think? I think Jaya is the best here, but maybe it's just my Merfolk-hatery =P

ForlornEgoist

03-27-2011, 12:47 AM

@ NecroYawgmoth:

How about Detritivore or Shivan Wumpus for land hate #9/10? :laugh:

Has your testing for a songless build been working out fine? I honestly loathe Songs because they're possibly the worst card to topdeck later in the game, but the deck, lacking any sort of MD removal, relys heavily on those explosive T1-3 plays, so I'm wondering how it's been working out for you. Since I've added the 4 MD Revoker's I have noticed a necessity for less reliance on Song, but I am still in that transition period where i feel the need to keep them.

@ SoBaM:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Uber yummy. It will fit nicely with my 3 MD Jitte. 5 Equipment is perhaps too much, so I'll most likely do a 2/2 split like you have.

Forlorn Egoist

guidogulp

03-30-2011, 07:43 AM

I think it mostly goes according to your meta call. The last tournament I played, there were among 55 players, 8 merfolks and 6 goblins, so for the next one I've decided to go like this:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Flametongue Kavu

// Spells
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Seething Song

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

// Sideboard
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flametongue Kavu
3 Firespout
3 Stingscourger
2 Blood Moon

Basically, the decision to cut Sloggers is because many times it's hard to cast and it may slow down your hellbent. Without that -1 Seething seems right and is working well for now, ratchets gives you the stability the deck needs and breaks many threats. Kavu's just because in my meta there aren't many combos so it gives me the control and acceleration I want.

NecroYawgmoth

04-04-2011, 02:43 PM

So, does any of you think that the new red Praetor has potential here?

Urabrask, the Hidden
3RR
Mythic Rare
Legendary Creature - Praetor
Creatures you control have Haste.
Creatures your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.
4/4

It has the same cost as Slogger and plays well with the "all-in"-style because tapped creatures can't block, and topdecked RPDs and stuff would have haste. Too bad he isn't 5/5 =/

your opinions?

Shawon

04-04-2011, 02:59 PM

His legendary status sometimes interferes with Hellben.

I think he's win-more. RPD flies and double strikes. Arc-Slogger kills creatures and burns your opponent. I don't think we need this guy.

ivanpei

04-04-2011, 07:35 PM

I'm glad people have been finding sobam ridiculous. I'm having the same observations. Pro the right colours and wolf token= very useful. As for totally cutting sloggers and songs, I think this is not right. Sloggers can be totally cut but I think 2 copies is actually fine. As for songs, we need to play then to be as explosive as possible. Without songs, rpd and raiders become less good because hellbent is harder To achieve early. I don't like songs either, but hey we are some what of an all in deck, we are no way beating any deck with attrition so IMO it's best not to Hurt the all in plan.

NecroYawgmoth

04-04-2011, 08:23 PM

yeah... SoB&M is sexyness^10

But I still don't play 3, because 4 Equipments must be enough.

My actual list which I am quite happy with:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

// Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

I only play 6 cards that cost 4 mana, and I am playing the maximum Screw-Plan... and because of only six 4-mana cards [4 if I exchange Shatterskull with Kargan] I have no problems to get hellbent.

Shawon

04-04-2011, 08:31 PM

If Shattering Spree is for Affinity, then that's not enough hate. Even if you can consistently hit RRR or higher, Affinity can still easily recover. Shatterstorm is better. Personally I go above and beyond Affinity hate and run 4 Null Rod.

NecroYawgmoth

04-04-2011, 09:02 PM

nah... we also have Trinisphere, Chalice and we have Revoker to stop Plating... and we can cut them off from colored mana with Moon and Revoker. 3 Sprees are enough with the other stuff IMO

black lotus

04-05-2011, 08:35 PM

@NecroYawgmoth: Your list comes pretty close to what I consider state of the art as far as Dragonstompy goes. As I have said many times before, slight adjustments in main- and sideboard really depend on your metagame. This would be a built for an unknown metagame or one where you expect few tribals but rather junk, cb, bant. Good job. If you expect more tribals, cut 2 moons, 1 Trini for something like 1 Lord, 2 Jaya and switch back to SoFiI, but this version seems fine otherwise =)
about Shattering Spree: It's _easily_ the best choice in this slot. If you draw it against Affinity, it's game (no they simply do not recover). 3 is fine, I wouldn't blame anyone for playing 4 though. Shatterstorm and Null Rod both hurt yourself A LOT so don't even think about it.

I still think Lodestone Golem is a good choice, but it's an artifact which actually does hurt and very occasionally, you would rather see that Lord. However, he does a lot of things very well and I recommend playing it over anything in this slot unless your metagame is like >50% aggro (Zoo, Goblin). In that case, Slogger, Flametongue and Lord do something very similar (exept that Slogger is the only one that requires Seething Song). If you don't feel confidant running Golem, Lord is probably the way to go.

I'm glad people are beginning to understand that Seething Song is not necessarily an autoinclusion to this deck and with Revokers you can be just fine running on a lower manacurve =)

Urabrask is obviously not strong enough to find its way into this deck.

blinka

04-06-2011, 11:46 AM

Hey everyone. Just started getting into Legacy, and built my first deck: Dragon Stompy (both paper and online). Have always had a thing for mono-red, and the explosiveness of the deck just seemed like so much fun.

Been playing it a lot for a couple weeks now, trying out the various lists. One of the first things I've realized is how critical that opening hand is. Knowing when to mulligan is key. There are so many decks out there where a first turn blood/magus or chalice for 1 (or 2) or trinisphere absolutely shuts down the opponent.

The list I'm currently running is similar to NecroYawgmoth's, except with seething songs, 2 akromas, no SoBaM. I usually keep the trinispheres in the sideboard. Also been messing around with Jaya, as well as sometimes Land's Edge. I like playing with two Land's Edges, especially if I'm using arc-sloggers and/or koth (being able to discard these guys anytime for hellbent is important).

In terms of matchups, I'm still learning about all the other decks out there. It sucks when I have a phyrexian revoker early, but am not sure what I should be choosing. More experience will help in this regard, I'm sure. In general, I've been able to beat Counter-Top pretty reliably as well as Death & Taxes. Seems about 50/50 against whatever that deck with Bridge from Below is called. Seem to always lose to other non-dragon stompy mono-red decks like goblins and burn.

Overall, the deck is a lot of fun to play, and I'm liking the legacy scene so far. Great thread!

Shawon

04-06-2011, 02:57 PM

about Shattering Spree: It's _easily_ the best choice in this slot. If you draw it against Affinity, it's game (no they simply do not recover). 3 is fine, I wouldn't blame anyone for playing 4 though. Shatterstorm and Null Rod both hurt yourself A LOT so don't even think about it.

No, Affinity can recover. You either attack their team or their mana with Shattering Spree. Affinity is fast as hell. If they are one turn from lethal, Shattering Spree for RRR may save you, but they can still rebuild their offense the next turn or reequip Cranial Plating to a new creature or Blinkmoth. If you think 3 Shattering Spree is enough against Affinity, you need to play the matchup more.

Null Rod is easily the best answer to Affinity. Who cares if your Chrome Mox or Jitte gets turned off, because in exchange you turn off their entire deck.

TheSleeper

04-07-2011, 12:12 AM

I don't like Revoker main deck. I've always found these creatures (Meddling Mage, etc) to be more trouble than they're worth. They don't affect board position at all and have antergy with some of your best cards (Jitte). It's not red for Mox and you don't always know what your opponent is playing game 1. What exactly is so crucial to Stifle that he can offset these drawbacks? Aether Vial? I think partially why he's been ok is because maybe this deck really just needed another low-cost creature. Until Wizards gives us another awesome 2R, we have to make do with what we have. To that end, I trawled up a few cards to generate discussion/ideas. Its always good to do due diligence even if you come back to Revoker :) I understand the cards below can't be cast off a single Tomb/City like Revoker can. Ability to pitch to Mox could offset that tho..

Embersmith - our deck has 14 artifacts, which means 'Smith could be activated a couple of times. 2/1 isn't bad either.
Goblin Tinkerer - why stifle Vial when you can just blow it up
Keldon Marauders - trades with Nacatl and friends while dishing damage
Mogg War Marshal - fantastic chump blocker, can kamikaze with a Jitte
Rustrazor Butcher - this guy was born to carry equipment! Jitte + first strike is awesome, with Wither to boot. With Jitte he can attack into a 5/6 Goyf and survive (and shrink it). Any of the swords on this guy are sweet too. I wouldn't mind testing him.
Skirk Marauder - another morph keeps opponent guessing, option to Shock could be decent
Stingscourger - having an out to Emrakul is a good thing
Yellow Scarves Cavalry - carries equipment.. kinda. I really just mention him because he wears likes yellow scarves.
Goblin Piledriver - blocks merfolk/war monk all day, carries equipment
Vexing Shusher - best way to protect Rakdos from FoW

TheSleeper

04-07-2011, 12:13 AM

blinka

04-07-2011, 02:27 PM

I've put the revoker to good use against Aether Vial, Knight of the Reliquary, Sensei's Divining Top, Umezawa's Jitte, Mother of Runes, and various swords. Yeah, there's a lot of times I wish I had a different card, but there is no doubt i've won some games because of it.

I kinda agree though, it doesn't seem like THE answer for the four slots it takes up.

Zupponn

04-07-2011, 07:44 PM

Here's my list:

-Lands-
11x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Crystal Vein (Don't want to spend the money on Cities at the moment)

-Creatures-
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Gathan Raiders
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Arc-Slogger
2x Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2x Flametongue Kavu

-Spells-
4x Chrome Mox
4x Trinisphere
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Blood Moon
3x Seething Song
2x Koth of the Hammer

ivanpei

04-07-2011, 08:26 PM

Unfortunately, revoker is the best dude @ 2cc. Also you can cast him T1 off a double land in response to a T1 Vial or Heirarch. When you follow it up with a moon effect, it's GG. That's what I like most about him, the fact that he can screw around with Mox's/Vials/Heirarch early and then later, shut down bombs like opposing Jittes, Kotr, Mangara or Top.

Zupponn

04-07-2011, 08:49 PM

To me, Revoker seems a bit fragile, and the cards that you named that he shuts down have better answers in my opinion. Also, I don't like how he doesn't work under a chalice at two is affected slightly by Trinisphere, and doesn't play well with Chrome Mox. Maybe I didn't test him enough or am not thinking about something, but those are my feelings on him.

ivanpei

04-07-2011, 09:05 PM

Unhellbent Gathan Raiders, RPD also die to bolt/firespout so 1 toughness makes no difference to 3 toughness in this case. The body carries a Jitte/SOBAM and screws people which is good enough for me. Opinions differ though, I love him. I think he's the best card printed for Dragon Stompy since Magus of the Moon. No joke, test him in real life against a variety of decks. There is always something to hit. If you have resolved Challice @ 1 and are going to resolve a Challice @ 2, I won't be so worried about revoker, you're most probably winning by then or have already dropped the revoker.

NecroYawgmoth

04-07-2011, 09:31 PM

...don't forget that Phyrexian Revoker cancels that cards that help the opponent to recover from the moon lock [Vial / Hierarch / Mox Diamond]

-> Colos Yearling or Mountain Yeti anyone? =P

€dit for below -_-

Shawon

04-07-2011, 09:35 PM

Stalking Yeti?

ivanpei

04-07-2011, 10:03 PM

Mountain Yeti has built in Pro-Swords but thats about it. Can block KOTR all day though. Style factor FTW!

NecroYawgmoth

04-07-2011, 10:14 PM

... and it's 95% of the time unblockable which is HUGE with Jitte or Sword =P XD

Gui

04-08-2011, 10:18 AM

-> Colos Yearling or Mountain Yeti anyone? =P

Godly techs there! Kudos for you! ^^

Or should I say "Yetis for you"...?

blinka

04-08-2011, 10:53 AM

I always liked the mountain yeti.. and yeah, maybe worth a look with the deck lists shifting towards equipment. Doesn't have mountain walk, but have been messing with Defender of Chaos as well (mostly just for fun).

Prkchpsndwiches

04-12-2011, 10:01 PM

New to The Source and new to Legacy. My first and last legacy match was at Gen Con for Legacy Champs lol. I played Sneak Attack/Show and Tell and went 2-0 and then ran into two merfolk decks. Blah. Anways I usually play Vintage, and was mostly there for Vintage Champs, but want to expand my horizons.

I'm planning on playing in a legacy event soon. I played around with some of my friends decks: Show and Tell decks, a Power Artifact/Grim Mono deck(Not sure if it has a name), Merfolk and Burn. I've read through a lot of threads on here trying to familiarize myself with the different archetypes. After playing a long day of Legacy, I didn't really like any of the decks other than Power Artifact/Grim but enjoyed the format overall.

I decided I wanted to play something that ran Chalice or Null Rod main and stumbled here. I love red and this deck looks like a ton of fun. Thanks for the primer and subsequent posts everyone! I've read through the whole thread and linked articles.

My meta will be playing at least the following:

Dredge/Reanimator/Merfolk(Mono U)/Burn/CB Thropter/Belcher and maybe a Isochron-Chant deck.

I'd like to be as prepared as possible for the meta. Any tips/SB help would be great for playing DS vs. these.

I plan on running NecroYawgmoth's most recent list for my MD:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Is Jaya that great vs Merfolk in the SB?.. or is it just good for blue in general? I just feel like 2 cards out of the board for it, is not enough. What about something like Urza's Rage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Rage) or Combust (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Combust)?

I also kind of like the idea of Mountain Yeti ;).

NecroYawgmoth

04-12-2011, 11:28 PM

Yeah, that's nearly my list. I kicked the Shatterskulls for 2 Kargan Dragonlords. They are [slightly] better.

Sword and Jitte helps against Merfolk... Jaya would also help, but strangely she has won me more games against Goblins than against Folk >.> Jaya is not perfect, because of her casting cost, but some other players already told me their opinions, and she seems to be an okay choice [too bad she doesn't cost 2R]. You could also play Boil =P

The only other card which I would think about which is not in my 75 atm is Stingscouger as it can bounce Emrakuls, and it can return early Goyfs or stuff like that to hand, and sometimes they can't replay it thanks to our Moons. The only negative thing about him is the overpriced echo of 3R.

I still think that is the list what I would take with in a blind metagame. [with the 2 Kargans]

Well guys, I want to update the Opening Post with the Swords of X & Y and mainly SoB&M, but I am too lazy atm, and have other things on my mind, but I will do it as soon as I find time =/

Prkchpsndwiches

04-13-2011, 08:09 AM

tesla

04-13-2011, 08:58 AM

hi everybody. i am wondering why only few of you play lodestone golem. i have only the best experiences with it. i don´t remember any single moment that its ability minds me. but remeber very well how it minds to my opponent. it fits perfectly to our deck. i was on 77men tournament recently went 5-3 with this list:

Creatures (24)
4xRakdos
4xGathans
4xMagus
4xRevoker
4xGolem
4xSSG

Spells (18)
4xChalice
4xTrinisphere
4xChrome mox
4xMoon
2xSoFaI

Lands (18)
4xTomb
4xCity
10xMountain

ForlornEgoist

04-13-2011, 09:31 AM

I know Covetous Dragon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Covetous%20Dragon) has been mentioned before. Is the five mana that hard to get to in everyone's experience with the deck? Seems like such a good inclusion with 16 artifacts.

I assume the reason hes not run is because most people are looking for a creature with some kind of nifty effect as opposed to some big beater. Realistically, he has no real drawbacks since nearly every list runs: 4 CotV, 2-4 3sphere, 4 Revoker, 4 Mox, 2-4 equipment. Add in 4 Great Furnace and you could easily justify him. Not to mention the fact that his 4R is a tad easier to cast rather than Sloggers 3RR.

Forlorn Egoist

perm

04-13-2011, 09:42 AM

porkschopsandwiches, why run sword of body and mind over fire and ice? pro green? Sword of body and mind has nearly useless abilities

Also, mountain yeti is an awesome find, unblockable beater immune to most removal! Not sure if it can cut it though.

Covetous Dragon should absolutely be tested. especially since it can go toe-to-toe with abyssal persecutor and has a potentially smaller drawback.

Alexeezay

04-13-2011, 10:20 AM

mountain yeti is a 4-off right now. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Prkchpsndwiches

04-13-2011, 10:29 AM

Regarding SoBaM:

Most people who play it seem to love it. I own one, so buying one is cheaper than buying two SoFaI... especially while it is hitting its peak price-wise: $100(2 SoFaI) vs $14(1 SoBaM). I totally understand running SoFaI though. I have to borrow the Cities so if my buddies have some spare SoFaI, I may run them.

I'll run the Covetous this tourney and let you guys know my thoughts.

Current list is now:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Covetous Dragon

// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

Also, I definitely need some SB help! Decks I expect are:

Dredge/Reanimator/Merfolk(Mono U)/Burn/CB Thropter/Belcher and maybe a Isochron-Chant deck.

Thanks in advance!

Deathcloud9

04-13-2011, 01:11 PM

Good job on the new primer- I believe that there is quite a few ways to innovate given the new set of cards released over the last year (namely revoker and sword of body and mind). Here are the links to the tournament reports I wrote after the Chicago GP. Hopefully they give some more insight into the archetype. Keep on brewing!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13357-%5BReport%5D-Grand-Prix-Chicago-Top-8

http://www.mtgoacademy.com/going-for-the-throat-dragon-stompy-a-grand-prix-and-the-mtgo-classic-format/

I'll post an updated list once I've tested a bit on MTGO.

ForlornEgoist

04-13-2011, 02:43 PM

@ Prkchpsndwiches:

In regards to the GY-based strategies the standard x4 Tormod's Crypt is pretty much the best way to go. Moon effects are essentially a gg vs. Dredge as they run no basics so although they can dredge you essentially force them to rely on their draw step for dredging and possibly an LED for their only mana source. I've pretty much never encountered Reanimator so I don't have any personal experience with it.

If you're expecting a heavy Merfolk-meta then you may want 3-4 Spinal Villain in the SB in addition to 3-4 of either Flametongue Kavu or Pyrokinesis. For SBing I typically take out some moon effects and 4 CotV. Yeah, they have Vial to get through 3phere, but they also have various counterspells which 3sphere makes far less amazing.

As for Belcher, we already pack a decent amount of hate for them. Similar argument for CB-Thopter. If you want to go overkill then 3 Null Rod essentially shuts down at least 1 card in every Legacy deck so I doubt you'll find a MU where it can't do something.

As for the Quinn MU it's been forever in a day since I've played against it. Moon effects aren't quite so fantastic so you'll want to SB some out but remember that Quinn's main form of CA is Scrying Sheets so be sure to leave some in. Revoker/Pithing/Null all hit the Scepter-lock. If you're expecting to run into this MU I would consider boarding in either Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb for Ensnaring Bridge. Note there is a relevance to which one you pick in this particular MU. If they can afford it they do tend to run Moat so Bomb would be better, however I've also seen many builds MD Disenchant or SB it in so tapping Ratchet for that charge counter can actually work against you as they'll destroy it before it untaps. Anarchy is also an option for removing general annoyances like Elspeth, Moat, and tokens (I think they still run Decree of Justice as a win-con).

Sorry I can't provide better SB options but my meta for the past few months has been nothing but Enchantress, Bant, and Rock/Deadguy so I'm kinda lacking diversity right now. ^^'

Forlorn Egoist

Prkchpsndwiches

04-13-2011, 05:54 PM

Thanks for the info Forlorn!!

I thin I'll be running this SB:

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Stingscourger
2 Mountain Yeti/Flametounge Kavu

I figure sting can hit both reanimator(barring it's not iona) and show and tell decks. I really like spinal villain. I even ordered some, but I think it may be too narrow. Maybe once I get the feel for the meta better. I feel like Kavu could come in vs. a lot of decks, but Yeti just seems soo sexy. ;)

EDIT: Decided on this:

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Stingscourger
2 Flametounge Kavu
1 Fortune Thief

Octopusman

04-14-2011, 01:12 AM

I'm sorry, I believe that Covetous Dragon has already been tested extensively. Maybe the results will prove promising this time around.

I'm interested to test Revoker. Although, I'm a really big fan of setting chalice at two and Revoker is harder to pitch away (see Gathan Raiders).
I've also had my eye on Aether Flash for a while unfortunately it's worthless once Merfolk get one of their lords in play ahead of time.

Glad to see that the new thread is taking off. I believe that we'll see the R2 bomb we've been hoping for soon.

ForlornEgoist

04-14-2011, 02:53 AM

Covetous Dragon is being suggested for the "flex," 5th spot in the deck. 4 RPD/Simian/Gathan/RPD is essentially standard but those last 1-2 spots are typically up for personal preference. Most people go with Slogger whereas I choose Lord of SP. Covetous is a perfectly resonably creature to run in that spot. 4R for a 6/5 with a somewhat neglible side-effect isn't horrible but it also doesn't do anything insanely amazing for the deck. I myself am actually considering returning to MDing 1-2 RKroma.

While I understand your reluctance to run Revoker for that Chalice @ 2 situation, realistically you should think about how often you actually have the conveinance to set Chalice @ 2 or even the need to do such. Majority of the time Chalice @ 1 does what you need it to do, and Revoker opens you up to hate on a larger selection of cards that you know will be harmful to you (Pridemage/KotR/Jace 2.0) or even something as simple as naming Hierarch.

Forlorn Egoist

Prkchpsndwiches

04-14-2011, 05:53 AM

Forlorn - Are you playing seething song in your list? If not do you have a hard time hitting six mana for Akroma?

ForlornEgoist

04-14-2011, 03:01 PM

Yes I am playing Song in my list which is required if you plan to run RKroma. I've never been overly fond of Song as it becomes one of the worst topdecks late game but our deck doesn't want to stall out the match. Having that added acceleration in the first few turns can mean a world of difference. Plus even if I end up stalling the game having RPD/Lord of SP/RKroma means I have some leniency should it become a topdeck later.

I've been considering RKroma because she can pretty much win any game once morphed. Evasion and pro-white/blue means she's pretty much impossible to remove aside from black kill spells such as Go for the Throat. The fact that she morphs also lets you hide her as just another Gathan and even if she is revealed can lead opponents to worry anytime you do a morph.

Forlorn Egoist

vikram

04-14-2011, 08:13 PM

I'm sorry, I believe that Covetous Dragon has already been tested extensively. Maybe the results will prove promising this time around.

Testing failed previously only because the deck didn't have enough artifacts worth playing.

Phyrexian Revoker and all the equipment people have been adding changes the math. Now the deck often plays 4 Chalice, 3 Trinisphere, 7 equipment, 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 Chrome Mox. You're playing as many artifacts as you are land. And if you want, you can even play 4 Great Furnace though that doesn't seem neccesary.

NecroYawgmoth

04-14-2011, 09:21 PM

WHAZZAWHAT????

Explain me how DS plays 7 Equipments? I never see a list with that many Oo

But I tend to agree that it is still possible to play 2 Covetous with 4 CotV, 3-4Trini, 4 Equipments, 4 Revoker and 4 Moxen. Still, we don't like to get 2-for-1-ed, and he costs 5.

Tivon

04-14-2011, 10:04 PM

he isn't as good as slogger, and is much more conditional than slogger. There is zero reason to run Covetous.

ForlornEgoist

04-14-2011, 11:10 PM

he isn't as good as slogger, and is much more conditional than slogger. There is zero reason to run Covetous.

I'm sorry, I forgot. Slogger is irreplaceable for the deck and as such any discussion for a card to replace his slot is utterly moot. As we just pointed out his so-called "condition," is essentially negligible with the increased number of artifacts we've begun to run. The deck isn't the same as it was a year ago and the average decklist now runs x4 Revoker and 3-5 equip in addition to the typical standard of x4 Cotv/x4 3pshere/x4 Mox (you could even run x4 Great Furnace to up the count which would not only retain Mana/Artifact supertype but would also be removed from nonbasic hate under our Moon effects).

Secondly, whereas Slogger requires an ability activation to take down bigger creatures such as 'Goyf, Covetous can take them head on without any investment. He also has evasion which, when combined with equipment, works out quite nicely particularly for decks looking to abuse Sword abilities. And, unlike RPD/Gathan, he doesn't require Hellbent to be useful. I think it's pretty safe to say that on average we can keep at least 1 artifact on the field but we can't always achieve Hellbent when its needed. Without it RPD/Gathan are vanilla at best. Covetous can easily compete with 'Goyf and 'Stalker while still putting the opponent on a relevant clock. RPD early-game requires a heavy investment of mana to be useful and dies to any blocking creature w/o Hellbent and Gathan is a 3/3-5/5 with no evasion.

I doubt Covetous is going to find much use for the broad spectrum of Stompy players. Indeed, most players I presume are still sticking to Sloggers for the reason of MD spot removal, but to say that he has zero purpose in this deck I think is entirely close-minded. We all acknowledge the divine power of Slogger, but many people have begun to find him clunky and the 3RR annoying to cast sometimes, thus they're looking for a replacement of which Covetous is a viable choice. If you want to keep Slogger in your build, that's fine, but please provide better arguments for not running Covetous beyond, "He's not Slogger."

Forlorn Egoist

NecroYawgmoth

04-14-2011, 11:20 PM

he isn't as good as slogger, and is much more conditional than slogger. There is zero reason to run Covetous.

I don't want to defend Covetous here, but IMO Slogger is a Relic that deck needs to get rid off...

The Gate has learned that Dark Ritual is a wrong move, because even if it allows unfair first turns, it is the baddest topdeck you can have. Same logic for Seething Song here, except that Ritual is a tad better, because it can be played from 1 land first turn, where Song needs 2 Mana land PLUS another land or a Mox & Card.

Sure, there is that turn 1 brokeness randomly, but there are as many situations where you lose because of topdecked Song.

Also... Slogger isn't that what it was 2 years ago... nuking that 7/7 Knight and then lose to a topdecked Knight or similar big Goyf? Hey... Flametongue isn't considered because he CAN'T ACTUALLY KILL Goyfs... So why should I trade a 3RR Creature + 10 cards from my library to nuke that thing?

Slogger and Song aren't good enough anymore, and I believe cards like Sword of Body & Mind / Jitte and hopefully Sword of War & Peace are solving our problems much better than Slogger.

Oh, and don't forget that you can just chump 2 turns and simply win with Covetous as 6 Power and flying is a thread to take care of...

Tivon

04-14-2011, 11:30 PM

The swords and jitte should be run in complement to creatures. I personally had previously cut down to 2 sloggers, but am currently back up to 3 (and considering the fourth quite seriously). I also cut one song. There just aren't any comparable creatures. It is a creature that opponents are almost never happy to see on the other side of the table, and other than jitte, it is your one real answer to tribal on the other side of the table game 1. SoBaM pretty much single handedly deals with goyf and Knight, and other creatures like Stingscourger are fantastic against those tempo-ish creature packages. Especially when you can lock them off the creature with a followed up moon effect or some such business.

Slogger is one of the few creatures with an ass that doesn't loose to burn in the deck. It also has reach. It also can remove those pesky creatures that resolved before we could drop moon and chalice which typically help opponents get out from under moon soft lock.

In short, yeah, its a relic. But its a relic that is still better than anything else currently available. Equipment aren't a replacement for what is one of the best creatures available for the deck; they are a supplement, and make those creatures better.

tl;dr: Run slogger, covetous sucks

Prkchpsndwiches

04-14-2011, 11:49 PM

Anyone ever try Silent Arbiter (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silent%20Arbiter) out of the SB. Seems like it could be good vs lots of decks. Just hold and swing with a flyer. Especially vs Merlfolk, Goblins and tokens.

ForlornEgoist

04-15-2011, 12:05 AM

@ Tivon:
Okay, so we've established that equipment deals with bigger creatures. But you're still relying on the equipment to deal with threats rather than stand-alone creatures. Slogger by him self requires at bare minimum 1 activation to deal with bigger threats like 'Goyf/KotR/'Stalker/Crusher/Terravore and that means in most cases you had to block their attacker or they blocked your attacking Slogger. In more extreme cases you opt to do 3-4 activations at which point if they topdeck another creature you can no longer use any more Slogger activations lest you deck yourself. Yeah, I won't deny Slogger has the ability to remove 1 incredibly powerful threat and can thus win you the game, but he's a one trick pony and if they draw another 1 then you're Slogger now becomes a 4/5 body for 3RR which isn't too impressive. Of course he's great for killing Hierarch or Bob who hit the field pre-lock but realistically you're never going to get a Slogger down at the precise time you need him to be there.

Okay, let's look at the tribal MU. At the point Merfolk drops at least 2 Lords you now require either a combat situation or 2 activations to remove a threat, neither of which is incredibly ideal. Sure, if you drop a Slogger T1 it's amazing, but so are the other thousands of scenarios in our deck where it's minutely possible to get a T1 Chalice @1/3sphere or T1 Moon->T2 Beater, or any other situations I'm sure we've all run into. But realistically short of that single rare situation you're not going to get a T1,2, or even 3 Slogger. And that's assuming its in the opening 7. Merfolk, however, runs what averages 16 Lords MD. They are pretty much guranteed to get 2+ Lords by Turn 4. If we look at Goblins Slogger obviously gets better, but Goblins is a much rarer MU and our CotV/3sphere are much more relevant against them and our SB options are much vaster than the Merfolk MU so I wouldn't consider Slogger to be the optimum choice.

Oh, but Slogger is out of burn range. So are Covetous, and RKroma, and Lord of SP, etc. etc. Burn is at an all-time low. The only deck that even bothers with it anymore is Zoo which has lost much prevalence in the average meta. We're beginning to see a rise in decks like Rock or 3/4-color control, etc. that rely on bigger creatures, Jace 2.0, or StP/PtE. None of which really care for the 4/5 body of Slogger.

Anyone ever try Silent Arbiter (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silent%20Arbiter) out of the SB. Seems like it could be good vs lots of decks. Just hold and swing with a flyer. Especially vs Merlfolk, Goblins and tokens.

It's a solid answer to the tribal MU, but I think a lot of people are finding their metas to see more and more decks such as NO Bant/Junk that win on the back of 1 or 2 beaters or decks such as Show and Tell that cheat a singler overwhelming beater like Emrakul, thus Arbiter is less than ideal.

Still, I think I may consider testing him in the x4 Pyrokinesis slot.

Forlorn Egoist

Tivon

04-15-2011, 12:33 AM

I missed your initial reply forlorn, so my initial reply wasn't directed at you, though most of the argument presented still stands. The swords int he deck provide plenty of evasion. SoBaM lets you get past a large majority of the decks which you require evasion for. The ones that it doesn't, are matchups where slogger shines. If covetous had haste... Well then I might be more interested in revisiting.

As it is, both are effectively 3 turn clocks once they start going at it. Slogger though has additional utility beyond ending the game. It is precisely for that additional utility that slogger is more valuable, despite the evasion provided by covetous.

regarding silent arbiter, I personally don't particularly like its artifact body. In a deck which will already see our opponents bringing in artifact hate, it seems even more vulnerable. I also like the reactive nature of pyrokinesis - which is why that isn't the particular card that I would necessarily cut in order to fit him in. And for the tribal MU, Taurean Mauler is usually a beast. Arbiter is probably best against goblins or zoo (though zoo has TONS of answers for him, so his effect is probably negligible) We have lots of other cards for merfolk that are just that much better (FTK, Spinal Villain, Pyrokinesis, Ratchet bomb, etc)

@ Tivon:
Okay, so we've established that equipment deals with bigger creatures. But you're still relying on the equipment to deal with threats rather than stand-alone creatures. Slogger by him self requires at bare minimum 1 activation to deal with bigger threats like 'Goyf/KotR/'Stalker/Crusher/Terravore and that means in most cases you had to block their attacker or they blocked your attacking Slogger. In more extreme cases you opt to do 3-4 activations at which point if they topdeck another creature you can no longer use any more Slogger activations lest you deck yourself. Yeah, I won't deny Slogger has the ability to remove 1 incredibly powerful threat and can thus win you the game, but he's a one trick pony and if they draw another 1 then you're Slogger now becomes a 4/5 body for 3RR which isn't too impressive. Of course he's great for killing Hierarch or Bob who hit the field pre-lock but realistically you're never going to get a Slogger down at the precise time you need him to be there.

Okay, let's look at the tribal MU. At the point Merfolk drops at least 2 Lords you now require either a combat situation or 2 activations to remove a threat, neither of which is incredibly ideal. Sure, if you drop a Slogger T1 it's amazing, but so are the other thousands of scenarios in our deck where it's minutely possible to get a T1 Chalice @1/3sphere or T1 Moon->T2 Beater, or any other situations I'm sure we've all run into. But realistically short of that single rare situation you're not going to get a T1,2, or even 3 Slogger. And that's assuming its in the opening 7. Merfolk, however, runs what averages 16 Lords MD. They are pretty much guranteed to get 2+ Lords by Turn 4. If we look at Goblins Slogger obviously gets better, but Goblins is a much rarer MU and our CotV/3sphere are much more relevant against them and our SB options are much vaster than the Merfolk MU so I wouldn't consider Slogger to be the optimum choice.

Oh, but Slogger is out of burn range. So are Covetous, and RKroma, and Lord of SP, etc. etc. Burn is at an all-time low. The only deck that even bothers with it anymore is Zoo which has lost much prevalence in the average meta. We're beginning to see a rise in decks like Rock or 3/4-color control, etc. that rely on bigger creatures, Jace 2.0, or StP/PtE. None of which really care for the 4/5 body of Slogger.

as long as merfolk don't resolve kira, i personally view it as a very positive matchup. RKroma and Lord of SP are both also better than covetous. I see much less of a problem with running those two over slogger. but covetous does absolutely NOTHING to make those matchups even remotely better other than to sit back and block. - Which slogger does as well, and has the additional benefit of being able to ping a creature when they try to swing through. The other tribal you are forgetting is elves, which slogger absolutely wrecks - and is once again increasing in popularity (at the very least in my local meta).

Whenever slogger hits the field, it is relevent. I've had it drop as early as turn 1, outright winning the game, and much later in the game, landing and firing off that crucial last few points of damage to close the game.

Covetous deals with one bigger creature - the same as slogger. Slogger can also do a lot more though. The largest toughness creature that covetous can deal with is 6. With slogger it is much higher - potentially as high as 10 or 12 if it will absolutely put the game away for you. There have also been plenty of games I've played where gofy is no bigger than a 3/4 for the first several turns its on the field (instant, land, creature usually), which slogger handles. and SoBaM absolutely touches jace 2.0. Bounce what? and StP and such should be getting stopped by moon/chalice.

regarding burn - oldschool canadian is popping up here or there in addition to NLT gaining a lot of popularity - both of which run burn. Also, without counterbalance there is no guarantee that burn doesn't start showing up again. Yes, its the same ass as dragon, smaller than RKroma and both for Lord of SP - but the utility can't be discounted when comparing it to other creatures competing for the same slot.

vikram

04-15-2011, 02:25 AM

vikram

04-15-2011, 02:25 AM

Evasion is a huge pro for Covetous Dragon, especially since the deck runs swords equipments which work far better on evasive creatures.

It's a three turn clock that flies over everything else.

He's basically Abyssal Persecutor but without the you can't win the game clause. With all the dual lands the deck runs, you can easily cast him second turn off a Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors or whatever.

Slogger needs two red sources to even cast, so without Seething Song (which is a horrible topdeck and should likely be moved away from), Slogger almost always comes out one full turn slower than Covetous Dragon.

Gui

04-15-2011, 07:27 AM

Just a doubt of mine, maybe noob doubt: Are tormod's crypts in most SB just because of Dredge? I mean, it's the most played grave-based deck right now, and as far as I can tell, Dredge has some hard time beating DS before the usual dragons steamrolling them with moon/chalice/3sphere backup slowing them down. Are the 3~4 Tormod's really necessary?

Tivon

04-15-2011, 09:29 AM

Evasion is a huge pro for Covetous Dragon, especially since the deck runs swords equipments.

It's a three turn clock that flies over everything else.

He's basically Abyssal Persecutor but without the you can't win the game clause. With all the dual lands the deck runs, you can easily cast him second turn off a Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors or whatever.

Slogger needs two red sources to even cast, so without Seething Song (which is a horrible deck and should be moved away from), Slogger almost comes out one full turn slower than Covetous Dragon.

Again, the evasion is negligable. Especially when arguing that it allows the swords to connect. The swords, with the exception of jitte - especially SoBaM, are their own evasion. Abysall prosecuter also costs four. This deck also isn't the gate.

Song, as much as it sucks late game, is one of the best cards you can see in your openeing hand (even if it only pitches to mox so you can drop moon turn one or trini turn one. Not having to pitch a serious business spell is huge, but being able to drop a big fat threat on turn one or multiple lock pieces is often a huge difference maker.

Crypt also ins't necessary. It's realy only necessary if non-dredge graveyard decks are running around. Your probably better off with ratchet bombs as they hit dredge, but they are also able to hit lots of other bad things for us - like the entire enchantress matchup.

If you guys don't want to run slogger, go ahead. But it still is one ofthe best threats in the deck and is much less conditional that most of our other beaters. Its still good when we have cards in our hand for example.

eq.firemind

04-15-2011, 09:38 AM

Guys, I've slightly different approach for the deck.

First the list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Sword of Feast and Famine

While the most popular removal is white, it costs 1 and Chalice covers it. But there are also popular black removal spells that hurt our assault through Chalice: Go For The Throat, Smother and Vindicate. SoFaF still gives protection from Goyf and KotR, but it also protects from removal spells. Now, the main part: BG sword's abilities.
Discard part is nice only when we start swinging early (we should anyway). Not awesome, but limits their ability to answer our threats. The untap lands allows us to throw whole hand into play faster (good for Hellbent and for general fast beating plan) and top-level Lord or Dragonlord is much easier to achieve now (actually, every creature with permanent effect for mana fits, just failed to find better ones). What do you think of this list?

Admiral_Arzar

04-15-2011, 10:14 AM

Guys, I've slightly different approach for the deck.

First the list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Sword of Feast and Famine

In B4 "ZomG you cut Slogger and Seething Song this deck isn't DS anymore go play a different deck n00b!111!1111"

Anyways, I feel FaF could have potential because, as you said, it allows you to vomit out threats very quickly. I'm not sure if it's better than SOFI, but it's an interesting angle of attack. The lack of Trinisphere here makes me unhappy, but I suppose you could sideboard it for the matchups where it's actually a wrecking ball. I'm almost tempted to cut a creature or two for land just so you can make us of FaF to the utmost, but I'm not sure if that's the right choice.

Yuri8

04-15-2011, 11:07 AM

Im testing something similiar to eg.firemind's list. I dont think revoker is md card, of course it can help in so many matchups, but he has body which cant solve anything on its own(without sword).

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Arc-Slogger (one will propably become new R/W sword)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

TheDarkshineKnight

04-15-2011, 11:45 AM

I really don't think DS can afford to run less than 3 Trinisphere main deck at the moment due to how well combo is doing. I'm also not feeling the equipment love and Slogger/SS hate.

Anyhoo, I've been running a very slightly modified version Tacosnape's list. So:

3 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Blood Moon
3 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Mountain

So, yeah, all I really did was drop a Slogger and a Blood Moon for two more Mountains. However, doing that has actually increased the consistency of deck by a huge amount. Really, my only issue with the deck was frequently not having enough red mana sources even after aggressively performing mulligans. So, I dropped one copy each of Slogger and Blood Moon since I'm not big on having multiples of either and doing so made the deck feel just right in playtesting.

And while I like Covetous Dragon, I just don't feel he's right for DS, primarily because you'd have to replace Slogger for hm. Yes, I know, everyone is for whatever grumpy with Slogger right now, but, he really is essential to the deck. I can't count the number of games where Slogger won the game simply because he's both a large body and a shock on a stick. When I'm able to land a hit with Gathan Raiders on the opponent, half of the time it's only because Slogger was able to deal with the opponent's creatures. Yes, the double red is a bitch, but, that's why I dropped a Moon and a Slogger for two mountains.

Clark Kant

04-15-2011, 12:54 PM

Really, my only issue with the deck was frequently not having enough red mana sources even after aggressively performing mulligans.

Playing more mountains makes the deck slower though. And you get mana flooded more frequently.

I think that's behind the Slogger hate. The deck is too damn reliant on having several red mana sources. Slogger is a big part of the reason why, and a big reason why the deck needs Seething Song.

Covetous Dragon is castable off a single red source and two mana lands like ancient tomb and city of traitors. You don't need to run Seething Song to run it.

Similarly, Lord of Shatterskull also requires only one red source in play to use.

I think the deck could do well to move away from Slogger and Seething Song and towards threats like Covtous Dragon and Lord of Shatterskull that don't need multiple red sources in order to be playable.

NecroYawgmoth

04-15-2011, 01:29 PM

Just wanted to mention that SoF&F is NOT nearly as good for DS as SoB&M is.

The discard is useless as they can discard the cards they can't play.
The untap is useless as we need to get Hellbent and need to play anything from hand BEFORE combatstep anyways.

...and pro U/G is better than pro B/G anyways...

tesla

04-15-2011, 02:06 PM

Why don´t you guys play Lodestone Golem istead of Slogger? I´m testing it for a 2 months now and must say that it is awesome!

Tivon

04-15-2011, 02:57 PM

Playing more mountains makes the deck slower though. And you get mana flooded more frequently.

I think that's behind the Slogger hate. The deck is too damn reliant on having several red mana sources. Slogger is a big part of the reason why, and a big reason why the deck needs Seething Song.

Covetous Dragon is castable off a single red source and two mana lands like ancient tomb and city of traitors. You don't need to run Seething Song to run it.

Similarly, Lord of Shatterskull also requires only one red source in play to use.

I think the deck could do well to move away from Slogger and Seething Song and towards threats like Covtous Dragon and Lord of Shatterskull that don't need multiple red sources in order to be playable.

so the deck wants to move into a direction where it is less explosive and its threats are less threatening and do less to help with controlling the board?

also, sword of fire and ice, though frequently regarded as the best of the swords, just isn't exactly what we are looking for in dragon stompy. I've had numerous games where the draw a card clause would cause me to not only loose helbent, but also the game. It draws you cards, which is awesome, but as you are really trying for hellbent, it doesn't do too much.

FaF I also agree doens't do as much as body and mind. Body and mind sets you up with a creature to leave behind and chump. Mill is "meh" but its better than untapping your lands in my opinion - which would really only be awesome with a hellbent RPD.

I don't feel 12 mountains is necessary, but if you like how its been playing out then I'd run with it. I usually don't have trouble dropping slogger - and I'm only running three song.

Clark Kant

04-15-2011, 05:01 PM

I want the deck to be more consistent and less reliant on having two red sources every game.

It's not less explosive. Covetous Dragon comes out a full turn before Arc Slogger except on the occasion where you have a Seethign Song. The double red mana requirement means that Arc Slogger can often come down later or not at all.

Covetous Dragon equipped with a Sword can be a two turn clock.

Arc Slogger lacks evasion, and might be a two turn clock if your opponent has no chump blockers and you have an extra Seething Song handy.

ThoSha

04-15-2011, 07:07 PM

According to current circumstances, i must say that trading 4 Trinisphere main for 4 Lodestone Golems was an AWESOME decision.
I won every matchup that was not combo suddenly, and im not too afraid of combo either. That Golem being half 3sphere and excellent beater in one card is just so damn good, i would never return 3sphere again. Besides that, you still have Chalice.
Imagine you have Seething Song, Ancient Tomb, Lodestone Golem, Chrome Mox + Simian Spirit guide on your starthand. Even if you're on the draw, Seething song + Lodestone Golem is really good against daze and most likely gives you a timewalk.
If you draw it too late and have a hellbent army already, you can simply discard it to another Gathan Raiders/cast it without R if you dont have Mountain/Guide/Chrommox(yes, you can lay Chrommox topdecked without paying the goddamn 3!!) and if you
would lose the game because bounced/topdecked Slogger ruins hellbent, you still have another great dude swinging for the win. Awesome. And now with so many NO decks it gets even better, nobody cares about TriSphere anymore.

My decklist atm:

10 Mountains
4 CoT
4 Tombs

4 SSG
4 RPD
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus
3 Slogger
2 SoFF
1 SoBM
2 Jitte
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice
4 Chrom Mox

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker(yeah, its a sideboard card in my opinion)
3 Pyroblast(i love it.Having it first turn in hand means like: Seething song, lodestone golem -> FoW? I dont think so ^^ on the draw is also nice, countering a random cantrip which totally leaves them screwed with their bad hand)
3 Ratchet Bomb(handles Elspeth Tokens, goyf, bob, jace.. Theres always something to break)
2 Tormods Crypt(might change this, cause i never lose against dredge anyway.. might increase Pyroblast and Bomb to 4)
3 Pyroclasm(weenies getting smashed real bad.. GG against Merfolk, Goblins)

Im not sure about the Swords yet, still testing them out.
According to my meta SoFF is slighty better, since everyone plays goyf and Go for the Throat seems getting more popular atm.
SoBM doesn't do the deal here, since the mill trigger gets their goyfs creepy big, why im considering on cutting Slogger already.
But since we still lack on good burnspells fitting our curve(Flame Javelin and Demonfire just seem sooo bad..) i'll stick to 3 Sloggers until
anything good is printed. Anyone tried Char, or is the lifeloss that bad?

tesla

04-15-2011, 07:21 PM

thanx god there is somebody who can appreciate lodestone golem. hip-hurrah!

ThoSha

04-15-2011, 07:35 PM

i just found this funny.. Everyone discussing about trading slogger and seething song for something awful like Lord of Shatterskull Pass or the weaker Dragon, but noone came to mind about cutting that goddamn sphere.. lol

Gui

04-15-2011, 10:05 PM

TheDarkshineKnight

04-16-2011, 03:39 AM

tesla

04-16-2011, 05:46 AM

Right. Removing Trinisphere from deck is a bad idea. Now, removing it from deck in a meta clogged with combos from all favors, and add something slower and less effective, that seems pretty good! :tongue:

Well, I actualy play Lodestone G. not instead but next to 3spheres. Four pieces both. There is never enough hate. And LG is both, beater and hate, on one card. For me it is auto-include.

ThoSha

04-16-2011, 08:26 AM

I dont know about combo like TES, but against NO combo the Golem is the far better choice. Lets look at this: Show and tells converted mana cost is 2U, and NO is 2GG. How is Trinisphere any useful here?
And i think i listed enough reasons for doing the change. I was never a big fan of sphere anyway, everyone plays around it, and you seldom have enough fuel to seal the deal just because of T1 sphere

Prkchpsndwiches

04-16-2011, 02:56 PM

Debating on two different lists now:

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Covetous Dragon

// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

and

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Lodestone Golem

// Spells
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

My worries for deck 2 are only 19 red cards to ditch to Chrome Mox vs 21.

Also really torn between SoFaI and SoBaM now that I know I can borrow the SoFaI from a buddy.

Clark Kant

04-16-2011, 06:18 PM

I think 4 Trinisphere is overkill, especially if you are playing Lodestone Golem as well. You really don't want multiples of Trinisphere.

I do think that since your list is playing 24 artifacts already (even if you cut a Trinisphere and a Blood Moon for a couple of Lodestone Golem), you could easily get away with cutting something to go up to Covetous Dragon. It really is a very strong beatstick and fast clock. Best of all, it only needs one R to cast, and no additional investment of mana in future turns to deal 6 evasive damage each turn.

// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Covetous Dragon
2 Lodestone Golem

// Spells
3 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

tesla

04-16-2011, 06:52 PM

ForlornEgoist

04-17-2011, 01:25 AM

I don´t thik that 4 trinispheres are too much. In fact i think that 4 is the only reasonable number because the true power of trinisphere lies in its 1. turn drop. So to maximize the chance to do that, play 4.

Granted T1 3sphere is a beast in many situations, but you need to look at the card beyond the MU where it completely screws an opponent over upon resolution. I think that nearly everyone here can agree a T1 3sphere can be back-breaking for many opponents however Moon pretty much always takes priority for lock pieces. We also need to assume that an opponent can play around our lock pieces, has counter/removal, or otherwise the game will last beyond the initial 5-10 turns (DS is famous for bad topdecks :/). 3sphere is one of the best examples in Magic of diminishing returns. As the game plays on its a card you'll want to see less and less. Topdecking a 3sphere when they have 5 lands/mana sources means that you might slow them down to 1 spell a turn but it ultimately will not affect the game state drastically. Topdecking a Lodestone, however, still provides late-game utility and an extra creature to attack/block. In the worst-case scenario of a late-game topdecked Lodestone you delay death an extra turn. With 3sphere you'll just die.

I've been using a 4-of for 3sphere for as long as I can remember but it doesn't pack as much punch as it once did. We've begun to see more and more threats with a casting cost of 3+ (Nighthawk, KotR, Jace 2.0, prevalence of S&T/NO/SA) who can easily play around a 3sphere. I've reduced it down to 3 MD and have been increasingly finding myself siding 1-3 out in many MU's in favor of more aggression or alternate lock pieces. Lodestone provides the same function as 3sphere only it doesn't experience diminishing returns to the extent a 3sphere does.

I won't advocate every DS player remove their 3sphere's suddenly, but it is an idea worth playtesting at the very least.

Forlorn Egoist

Zupponn

04-17-2011, 08:10 PM

Just want to mention that 3Sphere is better in the affinity matchup than Lodestone Golem, if that is a big deal at all.

Also, I don't like Covetous Dragon because of the possible two-for-one, but I can see why others like it.

Clark Kant

04-17-2011, 10:30 PM

I don't like Covetous Dragon because of the possible two-for-one, but I can see why others like it.

With 25 artifacts in the maindeck (more artifacts than land), I don't really see that being an issue.

GGoober

04-17-2011, 10:47 PM

Right. Removing Trinisphere from deck is a bad idea. Now, removing it from deck in a meta clogged with combos from all favors, and add something slower and less effective, that seems pretty good! :tongue:

I agree here, as much as Trinisphere is sometimes less optimal against various matchups, it is still much more powerful than Lodestone Golem. Golem is still not asymmetrical despite the fact that you're playing quite a lot of artifacts. It makes your Seething Song and SSG all pretty bad in the deck all of a sudden when casting non-Artifact spells.

Prkchpsndwiches

04-17-2011, 10:52 PM

Got rocked today by Enchantress and Aggro Elves. Elves even broke through my Chalice at 1. Cov Dragon never saw play, so can't say either way. Only 1 combo deck and I never faced it. First time running it was fun, but not sure I'd go this route again.

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 12:40 PM

so... let's discuss about Lodestone Golem...

Not as a replacement for Trini, but as an additional screw-piece...

The card is nearly 2 years old, and people in the thread are starting to play and test it NOW.

What was the reason that it wasn't played in the past / or ditched in the past?

Oh, and please no "it' dies to Bolts"-Arguments as every critter in this deck dies to Bolts except Slogger / Covetous / Leveled dudes

Prkchpsndwiches

04-18-2011, 01:00 PM

Well with Lodestone Golem I think you need to drop Revoker or Equipment to maintain a decent red card count to support Chrome Mox.

GGoober

04-18-2011, 01:09 PM

I'll chime in with a few notes about Lodestone Golem in Stompy decks since I've been playing with him.

Lodestone Golem is still a fundamentally weak card in Legacy (and yes the 3 toughness is a huge factor to its weakness, not just to bolt, but to many creatures out there with 3 power). Once your opponent powers out a creature with 3 power, Lodestone just sits there until you do something about that creature.

Lodestone Golem needs to be played turn 1-2 to have significant impact on games in Legacy. Turn 3 Golem gives you very little value, and turn 4 Golem is terrible (note that by turn 3, your opponents would have played their most important spells, or they would have had creatures with 3 power or greater out).

Lodestone Golem's effect is symmetrical, so it will affect your own deck as well, unless you tweak the list to avoid the drawback to yourself.

Lodestone Golem is never a hard-lock, therefore opponents can get out of his sphere effect pretty easily by simply making a landdrop. To fully utilize Golem and increase his power, you have to pair him up with more sphere effects, or simply with Wastelands. Dragonstompy at this point cannot really support Wastelands, although I feel that the deck could really use some (to maintain the Trinisphere lock instead of letting the lock just sitting there to be removed when opponents hit 3 lands).

In a deck like Dstompy, Golem's full power cannot be abused:
1. It's nice that Dstompy can power out potentially a turn 1-2 Lodestone Golem but Dstompy cannot maintain Golem's sphere lock without Wasteland.
2. Dstompy needs to maintain high red count for chrome mox, which is inherently disynergistic to Golem's sphere effect, i.e. you're still fairly symmetrical under Golem.

tesla

04-18-2011, 01:18 PM

i see only one negative on golem. he isn´t red. with him, i have only 20 red cards MD, wich is sometimes problem (due to mox). but it is a minor threat.

ThoSha

04-18-2011, 05:12 PM

Oh please.. Dont tell me that Trinisphere is better than Lodestone Golem because it fits in the deck better.
Trinisphere fucks up laying a chrome mox, it fucks up playing a Revoker when moon gets handled and they tap your city with rishadan port and smash your face with damn vial(happened to me here and then), it fucks up playing jitte+equip on same turn often and it has no other qualities than disable combodecks and having a good first/second turn. Topdecked Trinisphere on turn 5-10.. heck.. even on turn 3 is hella bad. People who want to play Sphere because its an awesome first turn play, have to agree the same on lodestone golem. And for disabling ourself.. who really is scared of that? Just put that sword on him and swing. if our opponent cant handle him he will die anyway. So its not a problem if the dragon is stuck on your hand, he just turns into Plan B. And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.. I agree on your opinion that he is bad as replacement for a red creature in combination with Trinisphere, but noone tried this deck without Spheres yet, which I did.

GGoober

04-18-2011, 05:29 PM

lol

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 05:37 PM

And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.. I agree on your opinion that he is bad as replacement for a red creature in combination with Trinisphere, but noone tried this deck without Spheres yet, which I did.

well...

I played this deck withous Spheres
I played this deck without Hellbent-Critters
I played this deck with Mana-Denial attempts
I played the deck with and without Song & Slogger

Actually I am playing this deck, since it was there, and tested tons of stuff...

...but what do I know?

Btw, Did you know that Jaya can do more than just "blow up U permanents"? Jaya isn't as bad as you make her, the only bad thing about her is the RR in the casting cost, instead of R [she would be much better if she would cost 2R, yes]... and Jaya was just in my deck to test out replacements for sloggers.

And unlike Golem, you can imprint Jaya in a Mox...

People who want to play Sphere because its an awesome first turn play, have to agree the same on lodestone golem.

this is 3 mana VS 4 mana first turn... oh well...

GoboLord

04-18-2011, 05:57 PM

And Necro, if you really have experience with playing DS i really dont get why you would play even crap like Jaya Ballard over Lodestone Golem, since we aren't a painter deck.
Oversimplification FAIL!

...and you don't like Stingscourger in SB because DS isn't a Goblin-deck, right?
You should try Jaya out yourself (or rely on people who did so) if you want to have an accurate ovall-picture. Discussing and oversimplifying things won't bring you anywhere.

GGoober

04-18-2011, 06:30 PM

And I have a Metalworker as my avatar and I am posting in the Dragonstompy thread, therefore we need to play Metalworker in Dragonstompy!!

Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)

Shawon

04-18-2011, 06:39 PM

Jokes aside, I've posted earlier why Lodestone Golem isn't suited for Dragonstompy:
1) Cannot maintain the small lock
2) 5/3 for 4cmc is not worthwhile in a deck that cannot maintain spherelocks, yet alone having more issues with Chrome Mox and not benefiting asymmetrically from Lodestone Golem (i.e. you have as much artifacts in this deck as non-artifacts, and that 1 mana that you can't pay because of Lodestone Golems WILL affect games)

Co-sign. I never thought Lodestone was any good in DS. It only helps linearize the deck even more and it doesn't address the problems that cause Dragon Stompy to lose in the first place (e.g. opp having board position).

ThoSha

04-18-2011, 06:54 PM

well...

I played this deck withous Spheres
I played this deck without Hellbent-Critters
I played this deck with Mana-Denial attempts
I played the deck with and without Song & Slogger

Actually I am playing this deck, since it was there, and tested tons of stuff...

...but what do I know?

Btw, Did you know that Jaya can do more than just "blow up U permanents"? Jaya isn't as bad as you make her, the only bad thing about her is the RR in the casting cost, instead of R [she would be much better if she would cost 2R, yes]... and Jaya was just in my deck to test out replacements for sloggers.

And unlike Golem, you can imprint Jaya in a Mox...

this is 3 mana VS 4 mana first turn... oh well...
Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..
You get the point. ;)

Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.

As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.

ScatmanX

04-18-2011, 07:03 PM

So, what I think everybody is trying to say is:

Lodestone Golem
The Juggernaut 2.0. 5 power for 4 mana, and an effect that slightly screws the opponent. What speaks against him is that he has only 3 Toughness [dies from a Bolt], and that the screw-effect also screws ourselves. Also, the +1 mana effect is mostly irrelevant if we control a Trinisphere. Furthermore, you can not imprint him in a Chrome Mox, which is worse than you think. I have even tested him in a Ponza-oriented version with Avalanche Riders, Goblin Ruinblaster and Stone Rain, and even there, I was not convinced by him. A few people play him, but I wouldn't do so.

Hint: From the opening post. There's some good reading there...

Gui

04-18-2011, 07:23 PM

ThoSha

04-18-2011, 07:36 PM

@Scatman
Seems like you misunderstood me. Im not the first dude which comes up with the great idea of including Lodestone Golem to the Deck,
cutting Slogger or any other Creature for him. As i mentioned above, all i suggested was replacing 3sphere with golem.
You cant pitch Golem to a mox? Well, you cant pitch Sphere in a mox too. I hope everyone gets me now.

Of course it costs 1 mana more than Sphere.. but man, why do i still run seething song?

@Gui
Im gonna post a tournament report on upcoming wednesday, where i can clearly state the pros and cons in MUs according
to this little change. And its not like i am fronting on people, they just joke about my idea without really getting the point, which
is kinda sad.

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 07:52 PM

Und Rocky 1-5 waren deine Idee, Neonlicht war deine Idee, Dragon Stompy war deine Idee..
You get the point. ;)

Not like I never tried Jaya ffs.. It even failed against painter itself lol!(but maybe its just me playing bad of course)
The only thing i was mentioning is replacing Golem for Trinispheres, and nothing else. That would save us a slot which would go
to waste for a bad creature(like.. Taurean Mauler, Lord of Wayneskull, Jaya Ballard lol!) letting us play 23-24 good critters.
If nobody likes my idea thats fine with me, just mentioned something new.

As for Metalworker & GoboLord:
Do you know any viable deck where Jaya is MDed except painter? Well I dont.
And since DS isnt stax, a softlock of 1-2 turns paired with a 5/3 is fine with me.

Well... I'll kinda ignore the fact, that you attacked me here, somehow, but...
Your arguments doesn't make any sense... Mauler / Shatterskull / Jaya are all not optimal, but neither is Lodestome becasue he isn't red...
Your list plays 8 cards with ccc4, 3 with ccc5 and 5 equipments with 18! lands in the main... and you are talking about highering the curve, and making your Dragons and Sloggers cost 5 and 6, this is way worse than Trinisphere making your Moxen cost 3.

Your Jaya-argument is totally nonsense also... It's like saying: " Do you know any viable deck where Lord of Atlantis is maindecked other than Merfolk? Well I don't." What does it say? NOTHING...

Many DS-Players had cut Trinispheres to test it, and anyone who has experience with the deck, will agree with me in the following point:

--->Dragon Stompy is a meta deck... it absolutely NEEDS to be played in the right meta... And everytime you want to remove Trini from the main, it just means that the meta is the wrong decision for DS. Sure Lodestone might help you a bit more than Trini in that meta... but you can't take good results with DS in a meta where Trini would be bad. <---

Please stop being so ignorant and post some constructive stuff here...

ThoSha

04-18-2011, 08:18 PM

First of all, sorry if i offended you in any way, i really didn't mean too.
And thanks for being the first after Forlorn Egoist being constructive on my posts now.

I see your point about being Golem subpar to this deck because he isn't red, like i see your point in Jaya Ballard
being good from time to time(metachoice.. i face more bant/painters than merfolk in my environment).
Its true that DS is a metadeck at all, but assuming that you are taking this deck to a larger tourney, you
want to be an allrounder still(thats my thought at least). I agree on golem being not the perfect creature for this
deck, but I find it more viable than other creatures suggested in this thread.
I disagree on that intense mana curve you are talking about tough. Testing has proven that with this list
i can go 2 ways of winning the game. The first way would be going the golem route, which sets golem T1 or T2(hopefully with chalice1)on the field
and kills the enemy with Equipment if he cant handle him. Now that isnt always the case since he might get forced, sworded or burned.
If he gets handled, i immediately go for hellbent/slogger still trying for beatdown. If that doesnt work i'll probably lose.
The 2nd way would be not having the golem on my opening hand, which makes me go for hellbent asap, with laying golem topdecked later. With this theory i just wanted to discuss about if it is good in modern legacy to play DS like that(with experienced player like you, obviously), or if its not, based on solid arguments. Thats it. :)

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 08:42 PM

well... I cant say it's to intense, because I don't play your list =P

my problem was the thing, that Song & Slogger make the deck inconstant, and sometimes you lose the game, when you topdeck a Slogger and can't maintain Hellbent [that happened to me with 18 Lands, 4 Moxen, 4SSG, and I am sure many others have the same problem.]

The same problem I see with Golems & Sloggers. Golems make topdecked Sloggers even worse. I know that Slogger is good against all Tribal not called Merfolk, and he is a house against many things, but my main objective is to getting that deck constant, because you'll lose many games due to inconstance, and I think Slogger needs to go with that.

I see your point in cutting Trini for Golems, like stated, but I don't hink it will help DS that much =(.

I really LIKE to play 4 Golems in DS, alongside with Trini, Chalice & Revoker, because I really really LIKE Lodestone. But then, we are playing like 20 artifacts. And... thats not good with Chrome Mox, and more problems are incoming =(

ThoSha

04-18-2011, 08:49 PM

Yes, Slogger IS clumsy, i agree on that big time. I wanted to replace him myself and i think Golem makes him even worse, yes.
But what would be an alternative in the list i am playing? Im not going back for Spheres, for that i am sure.
I also think his best argument of seeing play is being a burnstick. It might be good to replace him with Char in a list running Golem,
but i am not sure about the lifeloss. Just oriented this thought on fairy stompy using psionic blast as a direct burn spell.
What do you say about that?

Oh and just an addional thing:
I play 25 red cards main, since i am NOT running Revoker in my Mainboard, leaving me on 17 artifacts, 4 being Mox.
I really dont see any problem here ;)
Seething Song is good with Golem/Equip, so why cut it?

Edit:
Solfatara is 2R and has good synergy with Golem. Not a removal, but an early timewalk, providing us even more mana-advantage.
It might be a bad topdeck, but it easily provides hellbent at least. I think it needs to be tested :)

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 09:21 PM

I don't know... I am often thinking that one big weakness of DS is missing removal...

It's sad, that the best Burnspell for 2R [in the Burncolor] is Char =(

Clark Kant

04-18-2011, 09:54 PM

NecroYawgmoth

04-18-2011, 10:10 PM

Well, the problem with Mox Opal is, that we lose the 1st turn acceleration as we can't play 2 other Artifacts first Turn. For Mox Diamond we don't play enough lands =(

Also if we play with all the Utility, Covetous, Equipments, Seethings, etc. there is no more room for Gathan & RPD.

TheDarkshineKnight

04-18-2011, 10:33 PM

lol

I second this motion.

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 07:59 AM

Covetous Dragon is a fine replacement for Slogger. Slogger has no evasion and needs double red to cast. And how good Lodestone Golem is tied to how much equipment you opt to play maindeck. Early Golem + Equipment is a brutal combo that wins many games. Without equipment Golem is sometimes great but not always.

The more low power utility guys DS plays (Revoker, Magus, Simian, Golem) the stronger equipment becomes. And the more equipment the deck plays, the better it can support a playset of Covetous Dragon.

Still legacy doesn't play many creatures with 3 power. Other than Zoo, they all either play 1 or 2 power or 5+ power guys. And not many decks play Lightning Bolt either, just Zoo really.

Also, I was wrong about Seething Song, it's too strong not to play, especially with equipment, the acceleration I am unhappy with is Simian Spirit Guide.

And one last thought I had, what if we go balls to the walls with utility artifact creatures, equipment, chalice, trini etc enough to support replacing Chrome Mox with Mox Opal. We still play Moons, Covetous Dragon and not much other red stuff. Stuff like Metalworker, Monolith, Wurmcoil Engine and that protection from all colors guy could work.

Yes, of course we could do that. But why not going for Steel Stompy then?
RPD+Raiders seem alright in our deck, and i wouldn't run more artifact creatures than 8(Golem and Revoker if you wish).
And i believe that Covetous Dragon is an alright beater, but replacement for Arc Slogger? He is no removal and no disruption at all.

I think even Flametongue Kavu MD could be better than him, which i am not fond of either(not killing the */5+ dudes and doesnt have flash).

Btw, i just stumbled across Chariot of the Sun (http://www.spielraum.co.at/imagecache/global/images/magic/mirage/chariot_of_the_sun.jpg), which could also be tested. Helps Golem/RPD/Gathan fly for the last 5-10 damage.

Gui

04-19-2011, 11:56 AM

I'm sure it was tested already by someone, and of course it has problems (as in "not red") but there's no reference for it in this thread, and I think it could be a replacement for Slogger -- Masticore/Razormane Masticore?

TheDarkshineKnight

04-19-2011, 12:15 PM

Btw, i just stumbled across Chariot of the Sun (http://www.spielraum.co.at/imagecache/global/images/magic/mirage/chariot_of_the_sun.jpg), which could also be tested. Helps Golem/RPD/Gathan fly for the last 5-10 damage.

The reason I wouldn't run Chariot of the Sun is the same reason I don't like running quipment in Dragon Stompy: it does nothing by itself. Really, Dragon Stompy only likes to play two types of cards, namely mana sources and bombs. It wants to be as explosive as possible and throwing in cards that literally do nothing without a creature in play means you've lowered your threat density and thereby your explosiveness.

I'm sure it was tested already by someone, and of course it has problems (as in "not red") but there's no reference for it in this thread, and I think it could be a replacement for Slogger -- Masticore/Razormane Masticore?

I'm fairly certain that Razormane Masticore was played in older lists, actually. For whatever reason, though, he's gone now. However, you're giving me ideas for a different deck...

Koby

04-19-2011, 12:16 PM

Btw, i just stumbled across Chariot of the Sun, which could also be tested. Helps Golem/RPD/Gathan fly for the last 5-10 damage.

Bladed Pinions is just miles better for such a purpose. Even then, it's still pretty bad. The dual-pro Swords are the best non-creature artifact you want in those slots available to you.

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 12:25 PM

I agree on Chariot of the sun being just a worse equipment, i skipped that thought after 3 test games.
About Razormane Masticore, i really like this card in Sloggers place as a 3-of, but i am not sure about the rules tbh.
When you have to discard a card at the begin of your drawstep to maintain him, does that trigger before or after you draw the card?
If before, it is way weaker for our deck.

Edit: Nevermind, i misread on that. Yes it is damn weak when we need to keep hellbent before he comes to play.
Would have been too great to be true. =(

Arsenal

04-19-2011, 12:27 PM

Masticore of any stripe doesn't meld well with the Hellbent theme we have. We vomit our hand fairly quickly, often times not having a card to pitch to Masticore. Also, if you have cards to pitch, then RPD and Gathan Raiders are turned off.

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 12:54 PM

Price of Glory for Slogger anyone? =P
Hardcore disruption for almost every deck except ours xD

ForlornEgoist

04-19-2011, 01:04 PM

The problem I often had with Razormane is that albeit it can help to enable Hellbent, but at the same time I often found myself purposefully keeping 1 card in hand just so I use his effect; I was effectively weakening my combat step to remove a threat. Sometimes its only necessary to use the effect once, but I often found myself falling into the trap of constantly wanting to abuse his effect which is detrimental to our 8 Hellbenters. I don't think hes a bad card, I just think that many other players fell into the same problems I did with him.

@ Price of Glory:

O.O.... (purchases playset).

ForlornEgoist

GoboLord

04-19-2011, 04:29 PM

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 05:00 PM

I don't want to sound harsh, but there are some points about the Pric of Glory that make it really unworthy to play:

This card does effectively do the follwing:

Player's can't play spell's during their opponent's turn.

* Price of Glory doesn't help against countermagic (the relevant countermagic doesn't need lands to be tapped)
* it doesn't help against big creatures (aka Goyf, KotR, Tombstalker)
* it effectively restricts removal to be played with instant speed - that's all
* we are ooking for better creatures because we already have very good screw-pieces. And: I don't get how this cardis comparable to Arc Slogger (reminds me of Alice in Wonderland: "How is a Raven like a Writingdesk?")

Therefore I don't think it's a strong choice (unless you are facing Solidarity in high numbers).

I was just thinking about Price being chalice 5-7. Like you said it only restricts your opponent to not do stuff during your turn.
Lets say we play the Enchantment on turn 1 if we dont draw chalice but the hand is keepable, and Golem hits the field on Turn2, the enemy has to Sword our Golem for 2 as a sorcery, costing him a whole Turn without playing a threat himself. If he decides to do so, we use the timewalk for other threats going for the hellbent route. If he forces Price right away, he probably cannot force the next moon effect, leaving him screwed. Worst case, we have protection from wicked stuff messing up our more important turns.

Just my few thoughts about it, might be bad in reality of course. And of course its not a replacement for slogger in any way, i would just rather go down in creature count for playing something useful than play clumsy slogger tomorrow, which i dont know how to replace efficiently.

Regarding to Aftershock its a flexible card which can save games for sure.
I was just thinking the same as for Char, the lifeloss could be dangerous in some matchups, but maybe its just my
burn paranoia.

NecroYawgmoth

04-19-2011, 05:19 PM

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 05:46 PM

Masticore / Razormane / Molten-Tail -> it's Impossible to keep Hellbent with em, so forget it [also, they are Artifacts, Slogger can be imprinted if not needed] :D [maybe you could play them in non-Hellbent DS-versions xD]

Aftershock... hmmm Odysseus tested it as far as I know, but he haven't posted for a long time here =(

I always wanted to test it, but never did, because I always found cards which seemed to have more testing-potential. Additionally, I am a bit afraid of the 3 damage also, because we already play Tombs, but I need it to test someday =P

I don't think that Price of Glory does anything good, because every argument stated for it in the first turns is also true for Trinisphere

Replacements for Slogger, hmmm try Jaya if you don't care that she doesn't have haste, also there is Shatterskull which is 6/6 [which is enough against Goyf] [but Shatterskull is worse than Kargan IMO], or FTK... or you just could play Revokers main, which is pure awesomeness :D

You are probably right.
I will tinker with Price later, since i dont want a bad tournament result based on something that SEEMED nice. =D
But compared to Trinisphere it can be imprinted on Chrome Mox and it has not a single drawback for us at all.

About the Slogger Replacement.. I already tried Jaya and failed horrible against Painterdecks and Bant because she doesnt do anything useful until she gets removed. First turn jaya seems ok, but 1RR on turn1 is not so easy to obtain, except you have SS.
Shatterskull seems like.. so damn bad. I dont wanna pay 6 mana over 2 turns just to have a goyf removal at best. He just cant do anything worthy imo. And Flametongue Kavu would be AWESOME³ if he wasn't just a Sorcery Char paired with a bad body.
Dont know about Kargan, but he doesnt seem right in this spot either for me. Needs a big time R invest to do anything.

And i tried Revoker in the main too. I really hate to play him when i am not entirely sure what my opponent is playing. Saving him for later in a hellbent deck also seems meh.

I'll probably go for 3 Mountain Yetis, since everyone in my meta uses that damn KotR. Defender of Chaos also seems nice.
Have you tested the Yeti yet?

NecroYawgmoth

04-19-2011, 06:07 PM

...just toyed a bit around with Yeti... not much... can't tell much about him for now... except that he blocks KotRs like a champ =D

Don't forget that Kargan is good under a Moon, and that flying is a huge + in damageracing =)

ForlornEgoist

04-19-2011, 06:17 PM

If you're reluctant to run Aftershock, just think about the opportunity cost of not running a 3-piece removal spell: they keep a Goyf/KotR that can easily kill any of our creatures or swing for at least 5-6, they get to keep a piece of equipment as well as what could be a basic saving them from mana screw via Moon effects. Ultimately, for the ability to nix 3 cards I think 3 life is well worth the investment.

Granted I have enough trouble casting RPD sometimes. --;

ForlornEgoist

Koby

04-19-2011, 06:18 PM

RE: Protection from White
Why not run Wildfire Emissary? It can block non-white creatures much better; but not as evasive since it loses Mountainwalk.

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 06:28 PM

Or maybe i'll simply replace my 3 Pyroclasm with 3 Anarchy and give arc slogger a last chance.
I guess I'll decide that tomorrow after watching the meta a little bit. Thanks for the suggestions tough. =)

NecroYawgmoth

04-19-2011, 07:00 PM

so... If this card from the spoiled cards is real, what do you guys think?

Piest of Urabrask
Creature - Human Cleric uncommon
When ~ enters the Battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.
2/1

It's basically a Priest of Gix in red. I think, she deserves testing, if its real. Opinions?

PyreDream

04-19-2011, 07:03 PM

Some new toys, fresh from the mother of all spoilers over at MTGS:

Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
Artifact Creature - Dragon
4/4
(P) can be paid with R or 2 life
Flying
P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Priest of Urabrask 2R
Creature - Human Cleric
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.

Geosurge RRRR
Sorcery
Add RRRRRRR. Spend this mana only on creature or artifact spells.

Seems to me like a usable beater and a mana launderer would go a long way towards improving the deck's consistency. Not sure the ritual deserves a spot though.

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 07:24 PM

PyreDream

04-19-2011, 08:23 PM

What's wrong with the dragon? It's a red artifact creature. So it still pitches to Chrome Mox, if that's what you're thinking. It certainly seems bomby enough for this deck.

I don't see the relevance of Metamorph in a d-stompy shell. What are you copying? Another Trinisphere? Redundant. Another Chalice? I don't think that even works (unless you want a Chalice at zero or you're craving that redundancy against artifact removal/bounce). Extra Moxes? You still have to RFG a card with the Metamorph. A Sword or dragon? Seems win-more. The only legitimate target I see is Lodestone Golem.

Of all the new pieces, I think the red priest might be the most valuable. Priest of Gix over in Demon Stompy is a great tool to get rid of awkward mana from your Tombs, or just to get a creature out under 3sphere.

NecroYawgmoth

04-19-2011, 08:47 PM

Imprint - When Chrome Mox enters the battlefield, you may exile a nonartifact, nonland card from your hand.

so no, you can't imprint the Dragon here...

Anyways, I think he is not bomby enough for DS

Phyrexian Metamorph... How about a mainboard solution to Emrakul / Progenitus? Copying that Knight / Tombstalker / other enourmous creature the opponent has? Sounds nice to me for the investment of 3 colorless and 2 life. I REALLY like this card A LOT.

ivanpei

04-19-2011, 08:47 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117417&d=13031857388
This is so effing amazing.. Its just so freaking good. Its the missing peace for dragon stompy i've been searching.

The Red Priest seems nice too, i would give it a shot. Not sure what too cut tough. Slogger will definitly fall to the awesomeness above.
The dragon seems solid, but hes another artifact creature.. A clear no from my side.

This card is what all stompy decks have been waiting for, a good 3 drop!!! Thank you lord for revoker, now we have this!!! I disagree with the above poster, most of the time you won't be copying your own stuff. You will be copying goyfs, jittes, KOTRs, Emrakul, Progenitus (basically your opponent's BEST creature/artifact). IMO this card is awesome beyond words. I think slogger and seething song would have to give way to this as it's more efficient. Songs are still awesome though (you still need to be as explosive as possible) and I still like SOBAM so probably my 2 sloggers will be recplaced with this dude!

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 08:49 PM

Metamorph is so awesome cause it aims against DS biggest weakness: enemy board position.
I am not playing Trinisphere anymore and i dont mean copying chalice or mox even though thats also an option.
You wanna know some bomby targets? Lodestone Golem, Tarmogoyf, KotR, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Progenitus, Revoker, even GRINDSTONE lol,..
And we can play it in a RED deck.. Almost unbelievable :) For me this guy wins the edition.

For the Priest I totally agree with you.

NecroYawgmoth

04-19-2011, 08:51 PM

...so Sloggers and Songs will become Priests and Metamorphs =P ? *yay*

ThoSha

04-19-2011, 08:59 PM

..turning DS into a high competitive deck? Sounds fair. =P

PyreDream

04-19-2011, 09:07 PM

Thanks for the correction! My mistake was colorless =/ nonartifact.

I can't argue too hard against the Metamorph because I know stompy has been craving a half-decent 3-drop for ages, and colorless at that. From ivanpei's post, it's best use would be as a reactive card. As Progenitus/Emrakul/Jitte insurance I like it a lot, but I believed until recently that dragon stompy needed a linear plan of a. drop disruption, and b. drop bomb. Metamorph looks like it would push the deck towards a more controlling build. You probably dont want to drop it early or right after a 3sphere/Chalice for lack of targets. Stalling the ground with a cloned Goyf or KotR (whose ability you cant even use to keep up with your opponent's) instead of flying over with a big dragon seems subpar to me.

Shawon

04-20-2011, 12:05 AM

Phyrexian Metamorph copying KotR would be pretty weak in p/t since by copying it, it gets +1/+1 for lands in your graveyard.

But other than that, Metamorph seems like a legit SB card, more useful than Stingscourger and Arena of the Ancients against SnT.

I think the other card that has potential in DS is the red Priest of Gix.

This may be an incentive to finally kick Seething Song out of the deck, as well as Slogger. You keep the color-fixing Seething Song gave, and you keep a creature to equip! I sense this will be a good card for the DS variants pushing for more Equipment and a lower mana curve.

Tivon

04-20-2011, 12:17 AM

I'll be picking up playsets of both the red priest and the metamorph. Testing is obviously going to happen - but it seems like an excellent three drop - I especially like the wording which allows for copying Progenitus. At the very least it should earn some sideboard space. Also hits Iona for those nasty "Iona Naming red" situations which have thankfully decreased drastically

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 12:33 AM

Agree that it will be a somewhat reactive card, but considering the other big beater we used to be playing were Taurean Mauler, Sulfur Elemental etc in those slots, this is a huge upgrade. I think with the new priest and this dude, we can turn the deck into a real Equipment stompy deck. Priest + Metamorph gives you 8 GOOD creatures with bodies to equip. Now the question is how many equips? I play 4, but with these new cards, I probably would want 5 now. I'm playing 2 Jitte, 2 SOBAM so what should be the 5th? Or is 4 good enough?

That moltensteel dragon seems pretty busted if it's real!!! I mean 4 mana and a 4 life for a 4/4 flyer is pretty good. The fact that it's playable off 2 sol lands makes it even better. You could use it in conjunction with quick dudes to pretty much kill your opponent outright on T3. Imagine T1, Priest into Magus of the moon. T2 Moltensteel, bash for 4. T3. Bash for 8, Dump 10-14 life into the dragon + use remaining red for pump= 5-7 + 2-3 extra damage + initial 8 from the 3 dudes. Potentially lethal! I love it! Question is how to prioritize the slots remaining? Are Raiders and RPDs cuttable now?

Here's an initial list:

4 Chalice
4 Moon
4 Magus
4 Revoker
4 SSG
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 RPD
4 Priest
4 Metamorph

2 Jitte
2 SOBAM

4 Chrome
8 Sol lands
10 Mountains

I think 4 equips is the right number because we now have + 4 good weenie (Priest). Man that card is good, it's a "free creature" that can help you get to Double red for RPD! The big question now is Metamorph vs Moltensteel Dragon vs Gathan Raiders vs RPD. Personally I am starting to dislike Gathan, he's just too fair! He isn't really very big and pitching a card hurts. IMO RPD is still awesome, wrecks people everytime. Since we now have more 3 drops in Priest, can we cut Gathan Raiders? Gathan was useful for pitching crap accel or fats like slogger if we couldnt cast it, but now that the deck has a much lower curve and less bad lockpieces (trini), there are less and less things you want to pitch. With such a low curve, RPD should have no problems getting hellbent. The CC distribution for the list I posted above is:

2cc: 10 (This includes Chalice)
3cc: 18
4cc: 6

And that's it!, looks like a sweet curve to me with everything centered at 3cc and some bombs at 4cc. Moltensteel IMO is a great finisher but bad in multiples, so 2 should be a good number. It ideally should be the last thing you cast after your early threats have bitten the removal. You can fly in, pitch your life, and finish them off. I think the priest is really broken in this deck. It can combo with Metamorph too! T1 Chrome, Priest, Metamorph copying Priest, SOBAM/Magus. That's a pretty aggro opening. Metamorph + Priests could possibly give you a T1 Chain into a bunch of them + a lockpiece/equipment all on T1. It's like affinity with disruption! Ridiculous! Another problem now is the red count. If you went with my list and played No Raiders, you are looking at just 20 Red cards (excluding Moltensteel and Metamorph because they can't pitch to chrome). This is possibly another problem. I would feel most comfortable with 24 red (similar to 24 lands for Mox diamond). I'll test with 20 Red because Ideally I'd like to run the list I posted above.

BTW, what about THIS:

Dismember 1{pb}{pb}
Instant (U)
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

It's a 1cc removal spell that cannot be countered by Challice! It takes down Goyfs, KOTRs and Stalkers!!! Oh man wizards loves this deck.

TheSleeper

04-20-2011, 01:16 AM

Wow this spoiler is like a much-needed opium shipment for diehard Dragon Stompy addicts. Time will tell if people are just high right now or this stuff is the real deal.

As someone else said I see Metamorph as more of a SB card, or at least doubt his usefulness as a four-of. "Omg, I can pay 3 mana and 2 life for a Goyf, yeah!!" Yeah.. but only when they have a Goyf already. And they only paid 1G for it. And theirs is not be an artifact. And most decks that run Goyf run removal... something DS doesn't. Its best use would be against legendary creatures that previously DS struggled against - Iona, Progenitus, Emrakul etc. Thus SB.

I think Priest is great and definitely better than previous 2R Bears. So long Sulfur/Mauler, its been nice knowing you. Hope the artwork is as good as Gix.

Unsure how to rate Molten Dragon. He's no Rakdos, but 4 toughness is definitely better than 3. Probably competes with Koth in the 2-of slot so I'll leave others to comment here.

No matter what I'm glad the DS faithful were thrown a few more options.

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 01:27 AM

I agree, I think a 2-2 split between gathan and the metamorph is fine. Thus bumps up the red count to 22 and multiple metamorphs are not great if there is nothing big to copy. 2 probably is the best idea. My initial excitement of priest into metamorph was short lived because unlike affinity, we don't have master, signal pest, plating or steel overseer to pump.

Raggedjoe

04-20-2011, 01:30 AM

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 02:05 AM

Kargan seems to have been power creeped by Moltensteel. Moltensteel is just more manaefficient and can potentially kill the turn after it lands. It's RPD 5-6. I still like SOBAM over SOFI in Dstompy. I've argued this plenty of times in this thread. Connecting with a SOFI is VERY difficult because it gives you pro the wrong colours. SOBAM is better in Dstompy because it allows you to swing pass goyf/kotr and get a bear. SOFI has better abilities but SOBAM has better protection colours. SOFI has always been better in decks with some form of evasion like Faerie Stompy and White weenie (serra avenger, flickerwisp and mother of runes).

IMO Moltensteel >> Koth. No fight here. Facing a dude, Moltensteel has a pretty fat ass that can block Kitties, warmonks etc. It's the perfect size. Koth just dies. Koth takes a few turns to get going while Moltensteel means: Drop, can't deal with it? Die next turn!

TheDarkshineKnight

04-20-2011, 02:13 AM

The Priest is definitely going into Dragon Stompy. There's just no way he can't.

The Moltensteel Dragon seems very, very good. I'm not sure I want to dump Slogger for him, though. Slogger's shock on a stick is amazing.

Metamorph? Eh, not really sure. I like him, but, his usefulness is entirely dependent on the opponent's cards. Sideboard material.

Raggedjoe

04-20-2011, 02:14 AM

What do you think about Art Lands and Mox Opal?

Edit: Is Metamorph really MD quality? What about a list like...

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Preist of Urabask
4 SSG
4 Relekos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon

2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Jitte
2 Swords
4 Blood Moon
4 Geosurge

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 02:28 AM

I dunno about slogger, without songs, he's gonna be hard to cast. The Moltensteel seems like a pretty okay replacement. Fits the whole "Suicide theme" very well. So the discussion now is Gathan vs Metamorph. I think a 2-2 split is probably a good idea. Gathan feels pretty weak with the printing of so many new big dudes but is still pretty okay. Metamorph can really break games if he copies a Goyf, Stalker or equipment. Don't forget he can copy your own RPD, Moltensteel, Unmorphed Raiders and also Magus/Revoker. He can latch on to a Priest T1 and continue the priest Chain if you need to "All in" vs a fast deck like combo. 2 seems like a right number just because Metamorph seems so useful. Too many messes your Red count and can potentially be dead if there's nothing on the board.

Opal and Artifact lands are best in decks that are totally artifact based like affinity/painter with plenty of 0,1 and 2 cc artifacts. It could work if we turn this deck heavy artifact but that would mess up your red count and chrome moxes. We also don't run alot of 0-1 cc artifacts. So opal will rarely be online T1 when you need it to be. You also usually want to play an ancient tomb T1 and not the artifact land. IMO opals increase the deck's inconsistency.

Clark Kant

04-20-2011, 02:30 AM

Why is no one talking about...l.

Porcelain Legionaire, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon are all exactly the kick in the pants this deck needed. Metamorph duplicates your Dragons, Wurmcoils and your opponents Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Progenitus and Emrakuls.

Legionnaire is a fantastic two drop due to the first strike.

Replace the crappier cards with these and this deck is ready to fly.

Raggedjoe

04-20-2011, 02:34 AM

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 02:40 AM

@ the Legionnaire, a 3-1 first striker for 2 mana is pretty solid. Takes down Merfolk, kitties and other mean things. Possibly a decent SB card, but MD it's hard to find space. I think there's 2 ways to approach this deck, it's either dudes first or disruption first. I prefer disruption first as if you are a dude's first deck, Steel Stompy is simply the better deck to work on. The dudes first deck will definitely want the Legionaire while the disruption first decks would want to drop hate first, then try to overpower the weakened opponent with 3-4 mana bomby creatures/equipment.

In steel stompy, a Cranial plating equipped legionnaire? w00t!

guidogulp

04-20-2011, 08:44 AM

I don't see how Priest could replace some other of our threats as he just ain't one... you are just getting a 2/1 for no cost basically, that's it. FAIL

Regarding Metamorph, I wouldn't consider him for MD as he doesn't fit the scheme of DS of disrupting and attacking with bomby creatures. He just acts in response to our opponent, also having him in MD against say Merfolk, Goblin and decks with less creature count is like 'okey, I've got this. Now what?'

The reasons above are also valid for Revoker, acting in response when many times you don't have something in order to respond to ain't my best deck choice...

This other card, the 3/1 first strike doesn't solve many of our problems and isn't a bomby. Also, difficult to find him a space when having many far better creatures to choose.

On the other hand, the ONE card I'd consider is the new Dragon. A great balance between stability and attack

As where I see it, DS works better with no 5cc cards. I've been stuck many times becouse of that fact and hasn't worked for me. Basically, the biggest problem I see in DS is it's lack of stability so cutting 5cc cards solves a great deal of this, also does removing swords for ratchet bomb. We already have big creatures than win on their own, swords for me is win-more. But ratchets make the deck more stable and can also clean the board from threats we cannot deal in any other way.

So my list would be like this:

// Creatures 23
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Moltensteel Dragon

// Spells 18
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Seething Song

// Lands 19
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

In my meta there are many merfolk and goblins... I've also been playing with Flametongue Kavu with great results, but now I've cut them to make room for the new dragons

Clark Kant

04-20-2011, 11:12 AM

With chalice, ratchet bomb, lord of shatterskull, red planeswalker, Jitte, taurean mauler, is there any chance the draw 2 cards and proliferate or deal 3 damage and proliferate, are playable? Maybe in red stax with smokestack etc

TheDarkshineKnight

04-20-2011, 12:41 PM

I don't see how Priest could replace some other of our threats as he just ain't one... you are just getting a 2/1 for no cost basically, that's it. FAIL

No benefit? He provides something for Dragon Stompy that the deck needed desperately. That something is free mana fixing. God only knows how many times I've needed more one source of red mana in play and not gotten it. The Priest converts your colorless mana from Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors into the red mana we desperately need.

LostButSeeking

04-20-2011, 12:45 PM

No benefit? He provides something for Dragon Stompy that the deck needed desperately. That something is free mana fixing. God only knows how many times I've needed more one source of red mana in play and not gotten it. The Priest converts your colorless mana from Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors into the red mana we desperately need.

AND does it with the benefits of a body! That holds a sword!

guidogulp

04-20-2011, 01:11 PM

Anyway wht do u cut to make room, I don't see anything worse than the Priest as to cut it from DS...

Shawon

04-20-2011, 02:26 PM

I think the Moltensteel Dragon kinda sucks. Covetous Dragon is better, and I dislike that card. Casting this for four mana against aggro is the same as nailing your own coffin shut since you just paid 4 life for a 4/4.

ThoSha

04-20-2011, 04:39 PM

Ok so here goes of my tournament report of today:

First matchup: UW Superfriends Control

Game1 : I lose dice roll which bothers me alot in this matchup, going for a straight hand with arc slogger, chalice, ssg, mox, tomb, mountain and another chalice. He plays Island, top and passes. I know that he usually plays ANT combo, so i go with Chalice for 1 + Chalice for 0.
After I pass, he tells me that against his combo deck this would have been auto win probably.
I feel the sudden need to knock my head against the table for the big mistake i had done to begin with by keeping this hand against a control deck. Whatever, he goes for second turn Counterbalance. I topdeck a second Slogger and front him with the first one. I went the full risk for running into daze because i never saw that list with daze ever. So he doesn't daze and he also doesn't see force. Phew. In his next turn he yawns about the chalice disabling his swords, giving me a grin. But damn! He just O-rings the slogger while topping for other solutions.
Ok im thinking, i got a second one ready and he cant sword or balance it. So I topdeck a mountain and try the second slogger. He tops into a force finally and i pass my turn.
Now jace hits the field. I topdeck a dragon, want to play it and suddenly his counterbalance reveals Elspeth. D'oh. Now the game is sealed and i only keep topdecking crap which gets easier to handle from turn to turn.
Out: -3 Lodestone Golem, -all 5 Equips
In: 3 Ratchet Bomb, 1 moon, 4 Revokers(could've boarded anarchy but nvm)

Game 2:
Now this is getting handy. I draw into first turn accelaration + multiple moon effects and decide to keep it for going all in. So i go off with something like Tomb, Mox and Magus.
Magus resolved. Nice. He plays a fetchland and goes for top and passes.
I insurance myself by playing another Blood Moon, still not getting forced.
So Magus starts to beat from turn to turn while he tries desperatly to find one of his 8 Islands.
In the middle of the game he gets hands on a plain and plays an enchantment that makes Enchantments and artifacts cost 2 more to play with the option of sacrificing it to destroy one of those. Okay thats fine with me. Magus gets supported by a hardcast SSG and in the lategame i play Revoker on his Enchantment, beating for the win next turn. Nice.
Out: -4 Chalice
In: Pyroblast

Game 3:
He starts with Tundra, Top. I go off with a mountain, go.
He aims for Counterbalance which I pyroblast smoothly. In my turn i go for gathan raiders and hellbent. He goes for shackles. I go for another topdecked Raiders and bash with the first.
The raiders get to bash him at 7 next turn(here i started to topdeck lands every turn), but then i cant believe my eyes as I see Kitchen Finks(o.O). And another Kitchen FInks(O.o). And Elspeth(O.O). Well you guys should know by know how the further matchup went, as i had no creature upcoming and my life slowly but sure went away.

1-2

Kinda hard losing the first game, but whatever.

2nd Matchup: MERFOLK!! (ARGHH)

Game1: He starts with Cursecatcher. Since i mulliganed to 5 i went with 1st turn Gathan Raiders having 2 arc sloggers in hand. Sigh. Everything else doesnt matter anymore as the blue dudes just swarm me for good.
Out: 2 moon, 4 magus, 3 slogger, 2 swords
In: 3 Ratchet Bomb, 4 Pyroblasts, 4 revoker

Game2: I still get the creeps when i replay this matchup in my mind.
I start with mountain hoping to pyroblast his cursecatcher. He goes for Aether Vial. ARGH.
Now i screw pyroblast into a mox and go for gathans. I run straight into a Daze. Could have thought of that, but nvm. He plays Silvergill Adept and passes. I draw another mox, i throw my 2nd pyroblast in it and go for seething, Jitte+ topdecked dragon. Next turn he doesnt do much. I topdeck my 2nd jitte. Now i get to swing with jitte on an unhellbent dragon. On his turn he looks at my exile and starts to laugh. Then he plays an Enchantment for U on my dragon with cumulative upkeep 1 to put the dragon under his control. ARGH. In response i removed my jitte counters killing his only 2 merfolks. But nvm, he beats me with my own dragon, plays a coralhelm commander out of vial and plays a standstill. Now im completly screwed. I topdeck nothing but lands except the one turn before dieing, laying a revoker on his vial way to late.

1-4

Now this result fucks my day up somehow, but there are still 2 rounds to go.
But i guess i really deserved it for my bad tongue about Jaya in DS.

3rd Matchup: Monored Burn(a good friend playing with my own burn deck)

Game1: He wins dice roll and goes off with Figure of Destiny.
I play Ancient Tomb, Chalice 1. He gives me that look that shows i screwed his whole hand lol.
He pumps his figure to 2/2, suspends a rift bolt and attacks. I go for seething song, arc slogger, still having enough acceleration for burning his Figure in my turn. He plays a third mountain and goes for browbeat. I let him draw.
I go for Lodestone Golem. Arc slogger swings for 4.
He topdecks and already passes. I beat with Golem and Slogger and activate slogger 3 times.
With 1 life he just topdecks and scoops.
In/Out: Come on.. Nothing xD

Game2: He goes off with Goblin Guide, giving me lots of headache before chalice 1.
Now he plays Incinerate on me or something, swinging with the guide again. No land for me again, but i see lodestone golem. I draw and play him to stop goblin guide immediately.
He kinda acknowledges that things are going really bad for him as he goes off with a fireblast at golem already. I play another one. HAHAHAHA. I play SoBM and equip it on same turn, swinging for 7 and mill his 4 flamebreaks lol. He only draws crap, not regenerating from his fireblast. Game.

3-4

4th and last matchup: Enchantress. Now this is getting interesting.

Game1: I start with an uber hand containing 2 Seething Songs, 2 Arc Sloggers and luckily even enough acceleration to go off with turn 1 slogger. He stumbles upon the big animal i just casted, but goes off with Elephant grass. I play the second slogger. He goes for enchantress and in the next turns he just cant protect himself against this brute force of awesomeness.
Out: 2 moon, 1 magus, 5 equip
In: 3 Anarchy, 3 Ratchet Bomb

Game2: He goes off with Forest, go. I play a Lodestone Golem 1st turn.
He draws and passes. I play RPD for 5 mana and bash with Golem. He goes for a sterling grove.
From this point i dont remember too well how the match went, but he managed to get a ghostly prison online and the next turn this white enchantment that protects him from damage at all. He O-rings my Chalice set on 2. He gets his Token generator online.
In the meantime i had Lodestone Golem, Arc Slogger and 2 hellbent RPDs online.
Now in the next turn i hope to topdeck anarchy sooo damn bad as it would just win the game.
Meh, just a ratchet bomb. But better than nothing. So I blast all his 4/4 tokens away with ratchet bomb, hoping he will give me another turn to topdeck anarchy. But damn, he already had his 15 mana to hardcast emrakul and we go for game 3.
Game 3: I keep a pretty nice hand with Arc Slogger, Seething Song, Acceleration, and Chalice. I go with Chalice 1 and pass. He draws and passes. I play Arc Slogger and shoot once. He goes for Sterling Grove and passes. I play a second arc slogger and swing with the first. He plays Ghostly Prison and cancels my next turn win by that. Ok fine with me, so i just play a topdecked Lodestone and pass. He O-rings my Chalice and plays elefant grass. MEH, now that is evil. I hope to topdeck anarchy to prevail his upcoming white bomb, but i dont. But to my surprise he just topdecks and then clears the field. Nice.

End Result: 6-4

Pros: First and Second Turn Lodestone is a HOUSE. I didn't miss Trinisphere in a single game.
Arc Slogger was surprisingly good in the stock of 3. I'm sure he made my games against Enchantress like noone else. Pyroblast and Anarchy in the side also gave me a good feeling, even though they didnt do anything in the end. But just having them is totally urgent.
Cons: Equip, Blood Moon. I boarded them out more often than i thought i would, but they were not good in some matchups. Mostly equip got cut because there was no green threat to slice through. Ratchet bomb was a better choice i think. And jitte screwed me up for topdecking one while having one ingame already, but i guess i can live with that one in a million case. And i didnt see dragon against control, which would have saved me. AND I HATE MERFOLK LIKE HELL, WHY DO HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST THE ONLY MERFOLK DECK IN THIS FRIGGING TOURNAMENT?? But yeah, thats just my luck.

The list i was playing:

10 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawas Jitte

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Anarchy
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Blood Moon

Shawon

04-20-2011, 04:57 PM

Good to see you're at least testing with Lodestone. I'm still against it, but since you're using it to replace Trinisphere, I can understand your incentive. Trinisphere can be a pretty disappointing card sometimes.

Do you think Ratchet Bomb is needed? It's a versatile card, but I think its versatility clouds the fact that it's so goddamn slow. In your Enchantress game, you only used it to wipe his Angel tokens, only to delay the inevitable until he Emrakul-Walked you for the win. Even if you were able to get it to 3 counters, that's enough time to for Enchantress to find an answer. I really think Ratchet Bomb is just too reactive a card for Dragon Stompy. Even if you can charge it up to a few counters, you don't really want to wait that long to answer your opponent's board.

ThoSha

04-20-2011, 06:30 PM

I know your concern about Ratchet Bomb, because there are just 2 sides of the medal.
First of all its a super awesome answer to everything with converted mana cost up to 4. Its godlike against a previous turn resolved Empty the Warrens. Its awesome against Elspeth Tokens which just ruin the day without an evasion beater. And theres always something it will hit when you decide to board it.
But Ratchet bomb being the only answer just stinks if: Your Enemy counters it, your enemy plays around it like letting you nuke and then play 2nd goyf or whatever, if its only a short and temporary solution when something even worse will come up, and when its just to late to topdeck it.

its a pretty nice allrounder solution, but after this tournament i would say Pyroclasm/Pyrokinesis might be better in many matchups.

Tivon

04-20-2011, 07:06 PM

ratchet bomb is the best of what is available for what it does. Powder keg was considered a staple for a long time - and bomb is much, much better.

Also, I would find something better to run than Feast and Famine. Probably +1 Sword of Body and Mind and when it comes out +1 sword of War and Peace if you want to keep your equipment count the same. It's really just a sub par equipment compared to the likes of the other swords

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 07:28 PM

You could stick with songs- no swords and bigs or priests and equipment. I prefer priests and equipment because equipment turns my priests, revokers, magus and simian spirit guides into threats. I've found that if we don't stick chalice or chalice is answered, the deck is incredibly weak to removal. By saturating the field with weenies and equipment, they can't plow all of them and you should be able to run them over with equipped weenies.

Moltensteel is much better than covetous. Covetous is a conditional dragon as you must have an artifact. We have quite a few but its very risky if your lone artifact gets blown and you lose the dragon. 5cc is also alot of mana, so you expect covetous to come down turns 3-4 in a deck without song. Moltensteel can come down turns 2-3 (a full turn earlier) and start blocking, negating the lifeloss. This IMO makes it better than shatterskull too when often my problem is after dropping him, I still cannot block 3/3 cats or folk. Even worse, shatter skull is boltable.

Most importantly by the time moltensteel lands, you should have poked your opponent enough to drop him to 13-14(along with his fetches) you can immediately kill him the turn after with a moltensteel with 3-4 mana and pitching 10-12 life before he can stabilize. Since you cant kill moltensteel with bolt, stp will probably be the most likely removal. So once you all in on the dragon, you can recover plenty of life if he is answered. So no downside there.

NecroYawgmoth

04-20-2011, 09:19 PM

With Priest in the deck, Trini seems like an automatic 3-4of in the deck again, or what do you think?

I am trying to develop a new list, but its just too tight to fit in all the good new stuff without losing that much "screw-parts"

Also I think Gathan need to go now, as this deck is really too tight now... We can't cut RPD because he is just too unfair.

Also I think that at least 4 [or5] Equipments are needen now, as Magus7SSg/Priest and Revoker are all on the small side, while the Dragons are oor only true finishers. [besides Metamorph, if I can find the space] =P

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 09:32 PM

I have did some theoretical testing and will probably run this list:

The Screw:
4 Moon
4 Magus
4 Chalice
4 Revoker

The Beasts:
4 Gathan
4 RPD
2 Moltensteel

Mana/Dudes:
4 Priest
4 SSG

Equip:
2 Jitte
2 SOBAM

Lands/Mox:
4 Chrome
4 Tomb
4 City
10 Mountains

Did some conceptual testing of Metamorph against tribal... it was the sucks. :( Also, metamorph is just crappy against KOTR since your kotr is tiny. Metamorph is also not pitchable to mox. I want to have 24 pitchable cards to be absolutely comfortable so we are forced to play Gathan raiders. I'll probably be rocking this list when the stuff gets released. @ Trinis, can't find the space, there are too many non-red cards already, I don't think we can afford them unless you want cut moltensteel/equip which I think is unwise. This list has 26 dudes, wow like half the deck carries equipment, I like!

NecroYawgmoth

04-20-2011, 09:45 PM

So Metamorph is really that bad??? =(

That card looked so awesome in theory... q.Q

I just could test the Priests and I liked them a lot... First Turn Priest into anything is a win/win Situation, even if they counter him, you keep your screw for the next turn. 2+ Priests is pure awesomeness in highest form. Moltensteel was the next I wanted to test... Is it really THAT good? I hope he is, at least he has some kind of pseudo- Hatred in it =D

I really like your list, the only thing I am missing is Trinis. but I don't see any cutable except Gathans / 1 off Priest... I agree with you, that 4 Equipment is the absolute minimum. [SoB&M still rocks the house]

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 10:04 PM

The problem is that if you cut Gathan, your red count drops to 20. :( It's like playing mox diamond with just 20 lands, not a good idea! Really increases your mull rates. Sad, there are just so many good non-red cards to play. I was playing a 2-2 metamorph gathan split but mulligan decisions forced me back to a full set of gathan. So now Metamorph is fighting for slots with Moltensteel and equipment. Sadly I'd rather have equipment and moltensteels. What about cutting 1 moltensteel for the 5th equip? Whats the best 5th equip? Another SOBAM? Or another Jitte? Or should we just totally do away with moltensteels and play 3 Jitte, 3 SOBAM?

Slay

04-20-2011, 10:20 PM

So Metamorph is really that bad??? =(

That card looked so awesome in theory... q.Q

No. Metamorph is awesome. He is fattie removal of all sources, which the deck has always needed. 3 mana for a goyf when your opponent has a goyf is PRETTY GOOD I THINK. If your lock game is tight they shouldnt have the counterspells to waste on a shit creature like that anyways. I would strongly recommend running somewhere between 4 and 8 copies of him and that fucking colorless vendetta they gave us god damn that cards sick
-Slay

PS: happy holidays!

NecroYawgmoth

04-20-2011, 10:21 PM

If I'd play a 5th Equiment, I think it would be the 3rd Jitte... On the other hand... SoB&M pushes our small dudes... I have no experience with Moltensteel right now, so I can't say if he is better than Equipment. I think 6-8 Equipment builds could be too much, as we would get outtempoed by removal, but I just don't know... We really have some hard task to do now for finding out the ideal Nr of Red cards [Metalwalker statistics, please =P], and the right split for Equipment.

And I can't get that Priest into Trini first turn get away off my head... it seems so good not to play =(

oh, and btw... too bad, that Sword of W&P is so bad for us =(

ivanpei

04-20-2011, 10:52 PM

The good think about it is that SOWP is terrible in general, so people won't be running it. :) Jitte is Legendary though, so drawing multiples is pretty bad. In addition you don't always have Gathan to pitch Jitte and it might mess up your hellbent. I played 3 Jittes 1 Sofi for the longest time, but in the end, settled for the 2-2 split. However without songs, Jitte seems easier to cast and equip. I'll give it a test.

Actually the tempo problem with Equipment is a good arguement. Too many is a pain as drawing more than 1 is bad. Too little, means your weenies may be too small. I think 4 is probably the right number, along with 2 Moltensteels/Metamorph/Colourless removal. I'm leaning more towards Moltesteel now as it's good in almost every MU. He is a 1 turn clock against combo/control and can block against aggro the turn it comes down. Metamorph is great VS Bant or decks with goyf but bad against tribal, combo and control. The colourless removal spell seems awesome honestly, dodges Chalice and just takes down any creature we care about. Aggro is by far our worst MU, so maybe the colourless removal spell is the right call?

So the last two slots for me should be Moltensteel vs Dismember. Moltensteel seems better in general but Dismember makes a strong case for that slot. The advantages of dismember are huge, it provides such a big tempo swing. Running 2 is probably enough because drawing double + ancient tomb pain is gonna be an issue. Since our curve is lower, dismember maybe the right call. We now have more answers to Lackey/Noble heirarch on the Draw (the ultimate nightmare). I think playing up to 3 maybe an even better idea. Maybe cut a priest?

BTW what about all in red? Remember the Extended deck based on Dragon Stompy? There are an infinite number of Red rituals now. Here's my wack at it:

The Screw:
4 Moon
4 Magus
4 Trini

The Mana:
4 Song
4 SSG
4 Geosurge
4 Priest
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

The Wins:
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Deus of Calamity

Lands:
4 Tomb
4 City
5 Mountains

I guess the plan of the deck is to T1 Hate piece followed by a T2 All in to get one of the win conditions down. Trini is betten than Chalice in this case as you get protection from counterspells!

tsabo_tavoc

04-21-2011, 06:19 AM

Suppose there is 1 Mox in the opening 7 (60-card-deck), and mull decision will be made when less than 2 certain type (Land for Mox Diamond, Non-land, non-artifact for Chrome Mox) of cards are there, the list shows the number of such type of cards you put in the deck VS the probability of a mull.

Card Mull index
30 2.4%
29 3.2%
28 4.2%
27 5.5%
26 7.1%
25 9.1%
24 11.5%
23 14.5%
22 18.1%
21 22.4%
20 27.6%

Obviously, the more card you run, the lower chance you get screwed. 24 is no magic numbe, but 90% of the time you will be content with it. Also, the margin is down below 3% if you keep increasing card counts from there. Note this is a very rough model as you probably will keep a Ancient Tomb, Chalice, Mox, Moon, Revoke, Sword, Mountain hand.

eq.firemind

04-21-2011, 06:37 AM

Topdecking Priest of Urabask into empty hand can cause some frustration, but if you have Kargan Dragonlord out, it becomes a little better. I believe Priest will be a nice replacement for Seething Song in case you don't want to run 5cc cards and lower deck's curve.
Also looks great with equips of all kind, but I'm still pretty sceptic about equips in this deck 'cause Sword-of-Whatever does nothing wihtout creature.
Although there is an interesting one in New Phyrexia:

Batterskull :5:
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +4/+4 and has vigilance and lifelink.
:3:: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand.
Equip :5:
It offers some nice possibilities in mid-late game.
Will try this list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Priest of Urabask
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Batterskull

Yuri8

04-21-2011, 08:27 AM

Now Dragonstompy deck is on crossroad again. a) big fatties like lord of shatterskull pass/motlensteel hellkite/rpd alongside with seething song or b) little critters revoker/priest/kargan with lot of equips. Not sure if trinisphere is right in a) build, but seriously for b), why would you even play priest if its not for trinisphere?

eq.firemind

04-21-2011, 08:37 AM

Now Dragonstompy deck is on crossroad again. a) big fatties like lord of shatterskull pass/motlensteel hellkite/rpd alongside with seething song or b) little critters revoker/priest/kargan with lot of equips.
Or go for turn 1 Tomb, Mox, Song, Revoker on their Hierarch/Vial, Trinisphere.
Do not limit yourself with a)s and b)s.

why would you even play priest if its not for trinisphere?
Squeeze small threat before lockpiece - that's how it should work.
On the other hand, what's wrong with squeezing small threat before bigger threat?

Yuri8

04-21-2011, 11:06 AM

eq.firemind: Well, I didnt said anything about not including phyrexian revoker. It not like Im trying to create two decklists and force everybody to chose one, but you can seperate versions of deck into some categories. As most defining factor i find seething song/priest. Seething song is instant which enables higher curve, so you can run about 7-10 4cc creatures(these creatures dont need equip to be effective, so 2-3 is right i think). On the other we have creature(talking about priest) that doenst give any extra mana, but let us play another 3 cmc spell (hello trinisphere) for free, which means lower curve ( 3 mana is pointless when your hand is infested with lords and rpd). Maybe its just my way of thinking, but I really see only roads on crossroad.

I cant see any "bigger" threat, which can come out of priest. Gathan? In early turns just 3/3 body. Sword? Even if you equip priest with SoBaM you will get only 4/3, that dies to every removal.

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 11:18 AM

I don't think Red Priesty helps matters any. He doesn't actually ramp mana, just color fixes, and he's just a 2/1. He's synergystic, but he doesn't really -do- much for the price of a card in a deck where you don't have any card advantage and have to win the game with what you have. Your cards need to DO things. They need to win games.

However, Moltensteel Dragon is pretty sexy, as might be Phyrexian Metamorph.

TheDarkshineKnight

04-21-2011, 11:21 AM

Really, the awesome thing about the Priest is that he's essentially free and he fixes our mana. It's not hard for Dragon Stompy to pump out five mana on any given turn. It is hard, however, for Dragon Stompy to pump out two red mana every turn. The Priest fixes that issue. Really, he's a replacement for Seething Song.

EDIT: Ah, poo. I hate it when people post when I'm still typing. Anyhoo, any ideas for a new list with Moltensteel, Taco?

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 12:00 PM

FWIW, I'm working on a list of this deck packing Mox Opal and a very underutilized card from Ice Age. And I'm pretty convinced it's going to be the right way to go once I get there with it. Not that it'll be necessarily amazing in Legacy, but better.

But ideas? Yes. Not necessarily good ones. But ideas nonetheless.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger

Here's my thing about Moltensteel. You don't want to see more than one. Because very often, for speed reasons, you're going to want to pay that four life for it, and you've already got Tomb bonking you in the head repeatedly as it is. The neat thing about Moltensteel is that he can do the Rakdos thing and sometimes just win in one or two swings.

GGoober

04-21-2011, 12:04 PM

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 12:34 PM

Taco, Mox Opal is infinitely infinitely better than Chrome Mox. I would be excited to see if Dragon Stompy could utilize it with changes to its maindeck. I've always felt that DStompy is one of the more explosive and strongest Stompy deck out there (still is), but the fact that it cannot maintain locks forces it to win on strong hands, and be weaker to average hands.

If you're interested in an artifact-based Dstompy list, I had one that I brewed up a few months back and I'll be interested to share it with you if you're interested to get some ideas via PM. It's most definitely not optimized because everytime I look at it, I just revert back to Steel Stompy (since it's primarily artifact-based), but the list I had definitely keeps the more 'explosive-bombiness" of Dstompy v.s. Steel Stompy's less bomby approach to winning games.

I'd be interested to see, always.

What I'm attempting to achieve is something with the "Oops, I win" factor of Dragon Stompy, yet more in an artifact shell. I'd still be abusing the 8 Moons, of course, as it's my favorite part of the deck, but beyond that? It's somewhat of a complete overhaul. The point I keep getting stuck on is whether or not to include the Forgemaster/Greaves/Blightsteel package, try a Ravager/Slag Fiend package, or stick with the Hellbent crew.

Volrath

04-21-2011, 12:36 PM

What Ice Age tech are you talking about Taco?.

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 12:45 PM

What Ice Age tech are you talking about Taco?.

Jeweled Amulet. Balls sexy card, though it's weak on turn one. I love it with Mox Opal. They work fantastic together.