[Deck] Elven Advantage

[Infinitium]

NOTE: Primer in progress. I'll get back to explaining how I usually play the deck, sample hands, notable exclusions and a rough MU analysis later.

NOTE NOTE: Holy crap I've been supposed to finish this for a while huh. Not really having the time or inclination to do so for the time being though.

Introduction

Elven Advantage is a deck archetype I've been working on since the release of Worldwake when the printings of Elf powerhouse cards such as Joraga Warcaller, Elvish Archdruid and Elvish Visionary. At it's core, it's a Aggro/Combo deck with a consistent goldfish around turn 3 and an incredibly potent Tribal card advantage/aggro plan should the game drag on. The main thing setting it apart from similar Elf decks is the extensive use of big mana elves/untappers in conjunction with several hard card advantage engines to generate huge amounts of mana and cards in bursts, translate that into swarms of lord-boosted engine parts and proceed to smash the opponents face in using those.

Development began with the release of Worldwake when I made a rough draft of the deck and proceeded to (post a thread for it (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16353-Combo-Elves-post-Worldwake) to generate discussion, which promptly fell flat despite an online tournament win by Eldariel using a similar design philosophy). Whilst the deck started off as a comparatively normal ElfBall/Aggro hybrid with a Concordant Crossroads kill I quickly dropped Nettle Sentinel in favor of the slightly slower but fundamentally more powerful and harder to disrupt Big Mana Elf/Untapper engine, never looking back since.

As one might see from a glance at that thread the core of the deck haven't changed much since then except for playing various Tutors in the 2-4 slots available for those (swapping between Survival, Living Wish and Summoner's Pact). It also shares the cockroach-like quality of decks such as Goblins or Ichorid where the opponent is forced to either race or somehow kill off both every single relevant threat as well as well as somehow shut off all card and tempo advantage engines in order to keep up in the long game. Actually, I would argue that this kind of deck (fast, resilient yet linear and unable to affect the opponents gameplan to any greater degree) constitutes its own archetype along combo, aggro and control but that is another discussion entirely. In order to facilitate this it runs more lands than "normal" ElfBall builds and entirely neglects situationally powerful cards such as the aforementioned Sentinel, Regal Force or "finishers" such as Emrakul/Grapshot/whathaveyou in favor of a smoother manacurve and cards that can be played without existing board presence.

Back to the present, up until now I've been posting in the current Elfball thread, but since our design philosophies seem to be incompatible I'd like to spark a discussion on the more Tribal Aggro-oriented versions of Elf combo in this thread. The current decklist is just the one I usually play on MWS, if you wan't it complemented with similar tournament decks just PM me and I'll put them up at the end of the primer.

Current Decklist

Elven Advantage 2012

15 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Priest of Titania

4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader

4 Elvish Visionary
1 Sylvan Messenger

1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman

2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Concordant Crossroads

Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrakul
5 Meta Hate Cards

Maindeck mana curve:
1cc 20*
2cc 13*
3cc 13*
4cc 6*
5cc 8*
7cc+ 4*

*Counting Joraga/GSZ at all their playable values

Card Explanations

Maindeck

Forest: I cannot even begin to underline how important it is to play a respectable number (13+ at the very least) of initial mana sources in this sort of deck - in short, making land drops (and by extension playing lands) is awesome in a deck with a mana curve such as this one. Playing forests keeps you from mulling into oblivion. Playing forests allows you to curve into your card advantage and business in the face of sweepers and spot removal. Most importantly, making your land drops allows you to actually play around sideboarded hate cards and avoid overcommitting games 2 & 3.

Gaea's Cradle: In effect this complements Archdruid & Priest as your 9th way of making retarded amounts of mana quickly, and helps tremendously if you're trying to combo out cold with Heritage Druid as well as allowing for retarded early plays with Warcaller/GSZ/Messenger. Not being an initial mana source and its legendary status means it's best played as a 1-of however, albeit at that number the extra acceleration it provides greatly outweighs the advantage of playing another forest.

Dryad Arbor: Turns GSZ into acceleration on turn 1 as most of you are aware of at this moment, thus allowing the deck to skimp down to 4 1-drop mana dorks in all.

Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves: Not really the most effective card to power ratio there is, but having an accelerating turn 1 play is just to good to pass up in this sort of deck. Also cheap beaters with some Lords in play. The 2/2 split is due to Phyrexian Revoker/Meddling Mage and similar shenanigans.

Heritage Druid: Elven Dark Ritual on legs. Makes for some spectacular early plays and can still win the game in conjunction with Glimpse given an ample supply of Elves already in play (or some skill in balling into Cradle or Crossroads/big mana dorks). Also tends to draw fire from your more important creatures.

Priest of Titania: Basically the opponent can never ever let you untap with this and remain safe, ever. In conjunction with the untappers it creates bizarre amounts of mana in a deck running enough card advantage engines to deck itself several times over in the span of a single turn and running two full complements of bombs to mull any excess mana into.

Elvish Archdruid: See the above, but somewhat less likely to hit the board turn 2 and somewhat more likely to facilitate smashing your opponents face in should you not combo.

Joraga Warcaller: Ah yes. In addition to being a standalone game-winner with Priest/Archdruid and even the slightest of board presences, it's also highly castable uber lord in the 3cc-7cc even without the aforementioned big mana makers, and surprisingly a decent 1-drop as well - both midcombo and as a turn one play should no other be available (as every single elf on the board contributes to the effectiveness of your engine, and it can later be salvaged with Symbiote should the opportunity present). Automatic 4-of in any build running the big mana engine.

Elvish Champion: I've never actually played this maindecked before since it's badly overshadowed by Joraga Warcaller, but since that doesn't have any synergy with GSZ and I suddenly have room in the maindeck thanks to the Zenith I'm going to go ahead and try this out as the 9th maindecked lord effect. The Forestwalk is nice as well; typically not as good as giant Warcaller against the decks you would try to race with it but at least it's tutorable.

Elvish Visionary: Good on it's lonesome, helps tremendously in draving into business with Glimpse chains and makes for one of the best card advantage engines in the game in conjunction with Symbiote.

Sylvan Messenger: Expensive and unwieldy unless you have your engine in place, and somewhat hard to cast after a boardsweeper in a deck running only 14 fuaranteed mana sources; this still takes the Goblin philosophy of outdrawing the opponent no matter what they do and freaking runs with it - us running a full 30 elves and all. The 4 mana typically isn't a problem comboing out since you will essentially swim in it even a short while into the chain, and it pretty much guarantees that you have surplus creatures on hand when you Glimpse out even when playing out your hand aggressively. Another good reason why you really want to make your first 4 landdrops asap.

Viridian Zealot: Hopelessly obsolete anywhere else, it still allow you to tutor up an answer to pretty much anything permanent-based which can keep you from winning game 1 whilst synergizing with the deck as a whole. Note that GSZ can tutor for it at any cmc>2, which conditionally allows it to get around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

Quirion Ranger: Untapper. With all the tutors and card draw, and Symbiote being better in most regards running the full set is not mandatory nor desirable in most cases - repeated use does set back your board development and then some. Still, it allows for some very explosive T2 plays with Llanowar Elves/Heritage Druid and allows you to always "make" your landdrop even should you not have one on hand (by bouncing and replaying a tapped forest) so seeing one early is still a nice boon all things considered. Also, it gives the deck some protection versus land destruction in general and Smallpox in particular; something which helps tremendously in those matchups.

Wirewood Symbiote: The best Elf card ever printed, period (and yes, that's despite being an insect). It's a mana engine with any mana elf on the table, a card advantage engine with a carddraw elf or with an active glimpse, both simultaneously should the opportunity arise, generates infinite chumpblockers and is protection against sweepers and spot removal for freaking everything. And it's 1cc. This is probably what you should always tutor for with GSZ by default unless you can make a -very- convincing cause for anything else.

Glimpse of Nature: I view this as card advantage first and foremost. Sure, under the right (and easily fulfilled) conditions it can and will win the game singlehandidly at 1 mana, but never be afraid to play it out in order to cycle a few creatures in the early to midgame. The deck can win just fine without it. At the very least it's usually an Ancestral Recall as well as a veritable lightning rod for opposing discard or countermagic (as they can pretty much never allow it without risking a loss by default), but be very mindful of the fact that even a single counter or well timed removal spell can and will prevent you from winning on the spot, and don't blame me when your 20-card overextension meet up with Perish.

That said yeah; if the opponent doesn't disrupt my goldfish it allows me to consistently win between turn 3 and 4 (closer to turn 3, and sometimes as early as turn 2), and the presence of the other card advantage engines keeps it playable even after exhausting the initial 7.

Green Sun's Zenith: I've only just begun to test with this and it has already blown my mind. It's 4 extra Llanowar Elves for G, 4 extra Symbiotes for GG and 4 extra freaking everything I could ever want for 3-5 mana. It allows the deck to cut down the llanowar elves to a minimum whilst actually increasing the possibilty of a turn 1 accelerant, it gets around chalice and counterbalance and it gets either card advantage elves to recoup an empty hand or the mana elves to abuse them. Sure you can draw them midcombo, but that's awesome as they immediatly translate to exttra symbiotes to keep the combo rolling. The only tutor except Survival I would even begin to consider as an 4-of, let alone being an autmoatic such.

Concordant Crossroads: Makes all of your creatures (especially your mana elves) better by an order of magnitude and allows you to win on your big turn should you choose to Glimpse out. Being symmetrical typically isn't a problem since nobody forces you to play them out early versus aggressive decks, and they're obviously a godsend in recouping your losses post-sweeper. Also has the somewhat bizarre tertiary function of destroying any other world enchantment in play (most notably The Abyss and Nether Void), albeit this goes both ways - something that knowledgable opponents with bizarre card choices might act on. Finally it allows you to Alphastrike people out of a blue sky by dumping your hand ever so often. Best MD win condition there is bar none.

Sideboard

Krosan Grip: Standard green fare for beating Counterbalance, Chalice, Humility, E.Plague and similarily crippling cards. Another compelling reason why you want to play enough lands to make at least your 3rd landdrop by the midgame.

Relic of Progenitus: In addition to being a direct hate cards versus strictly graveyard strategies, most slower decks in the format relies on the 'yard to generate card advantage in the midgame and forward, and having an active Relic here helps facilitate the attrition plan immensely, and as an added bonus it cycles during combo attempts.

Faerie Macabre: The best hatecard available for most strict gy strategies (sans Leyline, which the deck can't really support). Not much more to it really.

Emrakul: Beats everything damage prevention, most notably Enchantress (Solitary Confinement) and Lands.dec (Glacial Chasm) and also flies over Moat like a champ. Interesting secondary function in preventing you from Milling, but Painter decks are rare nowadays and High Tide decks are increasingly moving away from Brain Freeze in favor of Stroke of Genius (or Blue Sun's Zenith post-MBE). Can also beat infinite life decks by locking them out of the game by annihilation and eventually deck them by using GSZ to prevent you from drawing your entire library, and gets around coy opponents trying to beat you by removing Crossroads and sweeping the board, using Wing Shards or similar assorted random plays.

Meta Hate Slots: If you want to bother with storm hate this goes here, likewise Masticore or Pithing Needle or whathaveyou. I personally would never play less than 4 Krosan Grip/5 GYhate cards, and Emrakul makes certain matchups almost unloseable, but otherwise the sideboard really isn't set in stone, so this is usually trying to alleviate whatever I'm trying to beat at the moment.

Notable cards not run:

Nettle Sentine:l The omission of this is what usually draws flak from people playing extended ports of ElfBall. The basic reasoning behind not running it is that whilst the Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse combo will usually win the game the turn it is cast, it is incredibly easy to disrupt by either spot removal on Heritage Druid or by countering/discarding Glimpse. And without both of the other components, Nettle is a fairly bad card on its own. Again, the general strategy of the deck is to generate mana and card advantage and win by quantity in the mid to lategame should the opponent nullify Glimpse, and there are better cards to run than this in order to make that happen.

Wren's Run Vanquisher: A 3/3 Deathtouch almost without drawbacks is pretty good on its own but we're looking for cards that both helps you win by Glimpse or by attririon, and this one does neither. Also, it's still in Nacatl/Burn range versus Zoo decks. This also goes for similar cards such as Talara's Battalion and so forth. Getting to play with 2-drops -almost- as good as Tarmogoyf isn't the best reason to go tribal, sadly.

Regal Force: Uncastable unless you already have mana engines in place, and if you have 7+ mana on hand and either GSZ or whatever this replaces on hand (probably Sylvan Messenger) you're typically in good shape anyhow. And if you don't have access to that sort of mana and board presence this won't help you stabilize a losing game the way Messenger can. Again, this deck isn't as all in as ElfBall style decks - you don't need to resolve a bomb in order to win, just getting Symbiote and Messenger/Visionary in play will already allow you to attrition the crap out of pretty much any reactive strategy there is.

Aether Vial: Doesn't play ball with Glimpse/Joraga/GSZ, somewhat slow in a deck aiming for the T3 goldfish, doesn't take advantage of your mana elves and the low cmc creatures doesn't make full use of it. Still a very powerful card in a deck running 30+ critters, but I personally believe it's not very well suited for this one in particular.

Duals: Running a solid mono-color manabase is one of the decks biggest strengths, and generally there isn't enough in other colors to make up for this whilst keeping the elf count high. Red used to be an acceptable splash only because of Anger, but nowadays Fauna Shaman takes 2 full turns to enable that as opposed to SotF's 1.

Other Considerations:

Viridian Shaman: The best card you could possibly run versus Chalice decks and Affinity, especially as it recurs with Symbiote. It still doesn't replace Grip however so 1 or 2 at the most is probably all you should aim for in the sb to fetch with GSZ.

Masticore: You draw a lot of cards and make a lot of mana, making it synergistic with the deck. Definite sideboard consideration versus Tribal decks (especially ones packing black for Perish), decks relying on Pernicious Deed/Firespout and decks running Peacekeeper. Also a total baller when it comes to answering Ethersworn Canonist out of the wishboard should you have the mana available.

Null Rod: I like this one as a sideboard card. Shuts down Jitte/Vial v. Tribal, SDT/EE/Equipment v. Countertop and control decks and blows affinity clear out of the water should they not anticipate it. Also it slows down Storm somewhat, although it still isn't enough to swing the MU in your favor as they can easily remove or even play around it should they need to.

Deranged Hermit: Useful bomb in the midgame bringing 9 power to the table, still nominally hardcastable/Sunable at 5 mana and recurs with Symbiote to flood the opponent with Squirrels. Potential 1-of in the maindeck.

Wirewood Hivemaster: Generally the same function as Hermit but at 2 mana. Interesting Lord effect in all, and has great synergy with Cradle should you run lots of them. Gets stupid fast with Symbiote and another elf on the battlefield.

Imperious Perfect: For a slightly bigger mana investment compared to Hivemaster you get a creature that has a greater impact on the board when it hits, is a more credible standalone threat given time, makes tokens with your favourite creature type and still tricks out big time with untappers. Not a bad deal in all.

Ezuri, Renegade Leader: Another nice manadump for GSZ, and also protects your board against sweepers to boot. Not a bad 1-of consideration all in all, especially if Counterbalance/Firespout decks see a lot of play in your meta.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Not as good as Priest of Titania or Archdruid, but then again few cards are. Yet another card to keep in mind should you want to run more big mana accelerators.

Living Wish: Alternative to running GSZ, and allows you to get Emrakul, Untappers, Cradle or answers out of your sideboard. It's slower and doesn't fetch Arbor turn 1, and eats up a lot of sideboard space however so use it at your own discretion. Running it in addition to GSZ is also very much a possibility, especially as it doesn't need to be a 4-of in order to be effective (and 2 extra mana isn't trivial when most silver bullets start at 3 mana and up). If you do run it, moving a Symbiote to the sideboard is mandatory as it is a) cheap and b) still broken at 3 mana.

Summoner's Pact: Another alternate tutor, albeit one that in my opinion is inferior to both Wish and Zenith. On the plus side it allows you to play whatever you teched up on the same turn with no loss in tempo, making it better whilst comboing out or when you can otherwise win on the spot the same turn, and unlike GSZ it does get Warcaller for those skull-crushing good times. On the flip side it's a pretty horrible tempo loss against countermagic, it's still a 4cc card when you're not planning to win that same turn and the ubiquity of spot removal and sweepers makes it quite liable to lose you the game on the spot should you not have 4 forests in play when going for it.

Natural Order: 4 mana and a creature is definetly on the higher end of the curve, and I personally rather play Messengers in this spot. As long as you accept the weakness versus countermagic, that it won't save you versus Perish and the fact you cannot get rid of Progenitus on hand should you draw it it's still a highly powerful threat however, albeit one you would have to revamp the deck some to fit in.

Gilt-Leaf Archdruid: If Emrakul is the mallet and Masticore the machine gun in your sideboard toolbox, this is the more sophisticated way to go about it. It's an Elf for starters, and at 5 mana it's both hardcastable, tutorable and well as a somewhat credible threat on its own (we run 16 druids in the maindeck not counting this; turning them into visionaries isn't trivial). Most importantly it can still power through Glacial Chasm in most combo situations as well as Peacekeeper by making it impossible to pay the upkeep (the main reason for running Masticore). It's not strictly better than Emrakul however as it doesn't beat Solitary Confinement, and albeit Brainfreeze is getting progressively rarer Painter's Servant might still be a threat. Emrakul also has the amusing tertiary function of foiling Show and Tell as well.

[Infinitium]

FAQ:

What does the deck do?: It makes a lot of mana using the big elf engine, then converts that mana into card advantage, then uses that card advantage to flood the board and win in short order. Since the deck can easily use the cards drawn to generate more mana, and mana to draw more cards this commonly creates a snowball effect that ends up with your deck on the table (hence the popular name ElfBall for the speed versions of combo elves).

Why would I play this?: Because you want to play an aggro/combo deck with a fast goldfish and excellent lategameme, keep your opponent honest with an ever present threat of "oops, I win" should he not play reactively and because it messes with peoples expectations - as an aggro deck, it absolutely murders decks such as Enchantress and Lands that relies on taxing and cannot deal with the big elf mana engine, as a combo deck it races aggressive strategies that normally hose tribal decks and as a tribal card advantage deck it can power through almost any amount of disruption with cards to spare at the end of it.

How do I play it?: The deck usually plays out quite linearily, and most decisions stems from which hands to keep, when to overextend the board and when to chump to buy time versus aggressive decks. Typically you want a hand with some lands (2 are usually enough to start out with; 1 landers are acceptable depending on the mu and other accelerants in it, but be wary of removal), some mana accelerants (ideally turn 1 llanowar into turn 2 Priest/Archdruid) and ideally some way to generate CA (Glimpse is usually a T3 goldfish should you start out with it, but T3 Wirewood/Visionary or T3 Messenger is still very strong). Don't be afraid to hold back on laying down creatures on the table; the deck can succesfully Glimpse out with literally 0 cards on hand thanks to the ridiculus amounts of mana PoT/Archdruid/Cradle can generate in conjunction with the CA elves and Symbiote, and having stuff on the table is what allows you to put pressure on the opponent. Remember that whilst the deck can win in a single turn should you Glimpse or start chaining Messengers/Symbiotes, it's still a tribal aggro deck at heart and should be played as such (ie it's more akin to Goblins than other Glimpse Elves decks in this regard).

When to use Glimpse? At the earliest opportune moment, unless you're certain that you can win straight up after your next untap phase and that the opponent cannot disrupt this. Holding it on hand accomplishes nothing except as discard bait, and even if you "only" end up drawing 2-3 cards off it it's still incredibly cheap incremental card advantage which will rapidly add up in the long run, and it helps you to safely build up board presence (as well as drawing secondary Glimpses with the board presence to end the game with them).

How to play through sweepers: Learn to identify which decks are liable to play these maindecked/sideboarded and play accordingly. This usually means not overextending the board unless the opponent starts resolving bombs, trying to resolve an early Crossroads and running the opponent out of spot removal by playing out big mana elves and symbiotes. After this, try to maintain the least possible amount of board presence which still allows you to put pressure on the opponent and/or allows you to win on the spot if you pull off a Glimpse, and keep enough elves on hand to repopulate the board once they are forced to sweep it. Symbiote is golden in allowing you to salvage your best elf on the table whilst simultaneously drawing cards with Visionary/Messenger, and having a Crossroads helps tremendously as it allows you to bounce right back after the opponent clears the board. Should you have enough mana to permit it and has put the opponent into topdeck mode, resolving an Ezuri or big Warcaller effectively nullifies red based mass removal eg Firespout (but be aware of spot removal).

If the opponent not only has mass removal but also a big threat, recursion or a card advantage engine of his own you obviously cannot bait him out; in these cases it's usually best to play out everything you've got aggressively and pray that you win before s/he blows you out.

What to do against Counterbalance/Chalice: Don't panic. Krosan Grip is in the SB for a reason, but even G1 having one of these resolved isn't game over. We run way more higher cmc cards than your average Elfball deck, and as long as you have a minimum of board advantage once these hit you can sometimes just try to beat down for the win (Archdruid helps a lot here). Failing that, try to GSZ up Zealot as soon as you are reasonably sure it will resolve and try to remove them directly and then overextend for the jugular before they can drop another. Chalice@1 can also be played through relatively painlessly assuming that they don't play a relevant clock and/or removal otherwise by getting Symbiote in play with GSZ and abusing your big mana and carddraw elves.

How to answer Discard/Counters/spot removal: Laugh. As a rule of thumb, as long as you aren't manascrewed you can outattrition any and all attempts to answer your threats on a 1-1 basis. Simply play out your hand naturally starting with your cheapest threats to avoid any significant loss in tempo (there are exceptions of course, such as getting out that early Archdruid etc) and try to either swarm or combo out in the mid to lategame. Remember that the opponent has to answer any big mana producer or glimpse immediatly or risk a loss by default, something which usually slows them down enough for you to stick an engine and clog up the board. This deck is very much quantity over quality, something which legacy as a format has some difficulty in answering effectively.

Matchup Analysis:

Getting there.

Goblins:

Merfolk:

Zoo:

Rock:

UGx midrange:

UWx control:

Lands/Enchantress:

Combo:

[k2thej]

Love it. I alway love elves haha. If you're going aggro, have you thought about using taunting elf? Might be good against other fast aggro decks. Maybe board?

[Koby]

How do you deal with Peacekeeper?

This is exactly the kind of deck that wants Living Wish -> Masticore BTW.

[(nameless one)]

That or have Emrakul on the main.

How is this list better than the current combo elves?

I think that if you're aiming for aggro, you might as well go full pledge aggro.

That said, a turn 3 Talara's Batallion/Wren's Run Vanquisher (via Zenith) is a better plan than turn 3 Tarmogoyf.

[Neil]

That or have Emrakul on the main.

How is this list better than the current combo elves?

I think that if you're aiming for aggro, you might as well go full pledge aggro.

That said, a turn 3 Talara's Batallion/Wren's Run Vanquisher (via Zenith) is a better plan than turn 3 Tarmogoyf.

That was my first thought also. Is it really that good to play a half aggro/combo deck? Also I really want to know why you don't run Nettle sentinel.

[Iranon]

It's a rare but interesting archetype that presents a dilemma to our opponent - they may need an early answer to have a chance against a combo hand, but aggressive mulligans are a liability against an aggro hand.
I've tried this with an affinity-based Glimpse deck and managed a decent rate of turn-1-kills and a very good chance to either get a combo kill by turn 3 or a 'better than aggro' opening. Unfortunately, it was a bit fickle... when it sucked, it really sucked.

I wasn't impressed the last time I tested a similar approach with elves, but that was before Green Sun's Zenith. This may be the first time I see a deck of this type that looks stable.

[Infinitium]

@k2thej: The aggro plan usually involves comboing out asap or failing that outdrawing and swarming them in the mid-lategame. Taunting Elf is far to situational to be of use in my opinion.

@Rukcus: Peacekeeper isn't as widely played now that Vengevival isn't a real contender anymore, but yeah Masticore is always a sideboard consideration versus that, other Tribal decks and decks packing sweepers. The deck looks like it could (and indeed can) support Wish/Masticore because it's approximatley the same deck that introduced that piece of tech to the Elf Combo thread (I do feel that GSZ is stronger than Wish at the time being however).

@Nameless One: The apt comparison would be with Goblins I think; a high percentage of extremely explosive hands backed up by a long term card advantage plan that outperforms most other decks in the format. The presence of PoT/Archdruid measn that Glimpse is obnoxiously strong even without warping the deck around it (it still pretty much reads "G: win the game" for all intents and purposes), and is in any case is a far stronger card inherently than the 2cc beaters.

@Neil: I've explained my reasoning for this time and again. Tl;Dr version it's an old Extended/Standard tech whereas Legacy have access to the stronger PoT/Archdruid/Crossroads engine, it's not good enough on its own without Heritage and Glimpse backing it up, it doesn't support aggressive plays since you continously tap out rather than attack pre-combo, forces you to play an exuberant amount of inefficient 1-drops and since the parts of that engine doesn't do a lot on their own it's easily disrupted by a single counterspell on Glimpse or removal on Heritage.

@Iranon: I've been playing this for the better part of a year and a half - the deck has been stable for a long time. It's hard to get people to actually play new concepts in this format unless it involves winning big tournaments, straight ports or stuff coming off the ban list however. It have always been less dependent on having good hands than Glimpse affinity as the presence of supplementary carddraw and Symbiote means that Glimpse is never a dead card outside the staring 7.

I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a rare archetype either - Goblins have been doing it since the inception of T1.5 for an example.

[(nameless one)]

I used to play Stompy Elves and I agree with what Infinitium said to Iranon. not a lot of people would play an 'established' deck unless it has that winning streak. I also agree that you don't need to mull that much when playing Elves. Unfortunately, with that deck, if you haven't killed your opponent by turn 5, its going to be an uphill battle for you.

If youre going quasi-combo and not pure combo, would it be better to run a full set of Sylvan Messengers instead of running them as a 2-of. That said, you'll won't need to run Glimpse of Nature. Possibly some good late-game card selection in the form of Fauna Shaman? You already have a full set of Green Zenith to begin with.

[Koby]

Is there any reason why you are not running 1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader?

The tutoring power of this deck is sufficient that you would be able to get it out at any time you needed to. With the amount of mana generation this deck is capable of, this seems like an auto-include. Did you forget about this one?

[Infinitium]

..And why wouldn't I run the single most potent card advantage spell ever printed? If I may draw a rough analogy to what you're saying it's like those people which insisted on playing Chromatic Star and Seal of Fire to grow Tarmogoyf in their T2 Gruul decks; the card is already the freaking best at what it does - there's no need to water down the rest of the deck in order to make it a smitheren better. I have a t3 goldfish, and the very threat of me playing Glimpse and winning on the spot warps my opponents gameplan by force whether they like it or not.

As for the turn 5 deadline; I play 9 Lords, 34 creatures in all, 14 cards that draws into them and 4 Wirewood Symbiotes to replay 6 of those cards -twice- per turn should the mana supply allow for it. Lategame isn't an issue, trust me.

The Sylvan Messengers are kept at 2 since having more is somewhat superflous with 4 GSZ, Glimpse, Visionary and Wirewood Symbiote, and at 4 mana it still tends to clutter your hand somewhat.

@Rukcus: Nope, haven't tried that one yet. Maybe in the Elvish Champion slot when I get the time to (real life etc). Tried it briefly when I still ran Summoner's Pact, but it was pretty much always overshadowed by Joraga Warcaller and it was almost never the best creature to go for in the Living Wish version (since having 10 mana was usually interchangable with 17 for Cthulu). I can see that might change with GSZ however, time might tell.

[Neil]

Infinitium, could you post what good and bad match-ups this deck has? I'd like to see how it compares with elves combo. Also do you have stats on what turn the deck gold-fishes? If not I can try proxing it post the stats later.

[Infinitium]

Busy weekend, busy life atm so it might take a while. Short answer below, albeit this also depends the specific cards played in the specific deck. Also nobody metagames against Elves, I exclusively play on MWS and am probably biased so there's quite the margin of error in my judgement.

Roughly speaking it has a good to excellent excellent matchup v. other tribal decks (gets worse if they're splashing black for perish), Big Zoo, Affinity, Burn, midrange/control decks not packing blue, Lands.dec, Tomb Stompy variants, Enchantress and Threshold/New Horizon style decks. Basically everything that struggles to answer an early combo, relies on 1/1 answers maindeck ( or better yet force of will), has a slower or similar goldfish and cannot outdraw you in the lategame (or in the case of Enchantress/42Lands because they lack efficient answers to anything and cannot handle hardcasted Emrakul postside).

Stax (white variants), control decks packing Jace TMS (or similar draw engines), Sligh decks (including small Zoo) and counterbalance decks are intermediate matchups.

Storm Combo (gets worse the faster variety it is) and Pox are generally bad to horrible. (storm combo is unsalvagaeble, Pox is nasty since they pack a lot of rather specific hate coupled with land destruction to keep the deck from drawing into more threats).

[nedleeds]

Isn't Bounty of the Hunt with Joraga Warcaller a solid hand shake and next game? Bounty puts counters on. Warcaller doesn't care where the counters came from.

I BotH my Warcaller with all 3 counters ...

In addition it skirts Counterbalance and can (not always) help vs. Firespout or Pyroclasm.

[Infinitium]

2 cards for pumping all of your Elves for one turn looks weak, especially as it opens you up for some savage 3-for-1's.

[nedleeds]

2 cards for pumping all of your Elves for one turn looks weak, especially as it opens you up for some savage 3-for-1's.

If you are worried about X-for1's then you probably shouldn't be playing elf swarm. Firespout and Perish wave hello.

[Ciberon]

most cards constitutes a standalone threat to the opponent and there are multiple redundancies should they try to attack one aspect of the deck.

Err... no? None of the cards in this deck constitutes a standalone threat and there are no redudancies, it's as plain and simple as cleaning the table.

[Hawdes]

Err... no? None of the cards in this deck constitutes a standalone thread and there are no redudancies, it's as plain and simple as cleaning the table.

Just asking... wth is a thread in that context? This is a thread... But a card =/= thread... I guess you mean threat.

[Ciberon]

Typo fixed. Yes, I meant threat.

[Infinitium]

If you are worried about X-for1's then you probably shouldn't be playing elf swarm. Firespout and Perish wave hello.

I'm not particulary worried about sweepers, no. The deck plays what, 10 maindeck cards that generate card advantage, 4 GSZ to tutor 6 of them and Wirewood Symbiote to recur card advantage elves and save your most important ones from removal. Sweepers backed by a big threat or a card advantage engine of their own is worse but still not unsalvageable. That said in the scenarioswhere Bounty is good (Joraga + Elves! on the table as well as extra cards on hand), you should already be winning.


Statement

Retort. Also no, it's not "as clean and simple as clearing the table".

[Neil]

I'm not particulary worried about sweepers, no. The deck plays what, 10 maindeck cards that generate card advantage, 4 GSZ to tutor 6 of them and Wirewood Symbiote to recur card advantage elves and save your most important ones from removal. Sweepers backed by a big threat or a card advantage engine of their own is worse but still not unsalvageable. That said in the scenarioswhere Bounty is good (Joraga + Elves! on the table as well as extra cards on hand), you should already be winning.



Retort. Also no, it's not "as clean and simple as clearing the table".

I might be missing something here, but you guys are talking about using bounty to give +1/+1 three times to Joraga which gives all the rest of the elves +3/+3 right? If that is so doesn't Joraga require +1/+1 counters which bounty does not give. Am I forgetting something?

[Infinitium]

Check the oracle wording; it gives counters.

[nedleeds]

I concede that without Warcaller it's not very exciting, but it can still save a lord or with the mana situation occasionally be cast. With a Warcaller it just seems like a game ender, or Force of Will vs. the worst main deck card in the format for this deck -- firespout --.

[Neil]

Would running 1 or 2 Copperhorn Scout be a good idea?

[Koby]

Is Deranged Hermit out of the question here? It's a good way to help beat Zoo's big guys, and potential for shenanigans with Wirewood Symbiote.

Turbo charges a Gaea's Cradle too.

[Infinitium]

I wouldn't run Copperhorn unless I also ran Emrakul/Storm maindeck since it interferes with the beatface plan, and even then it would probably be better to run more Quirion Ranger in most cases. Can't say since I haven't tested it yet, but feel free to try it out yourself! I didn't post this only to stroke my own ego y'know.

Deranged Hermit isn't unreasonable as a big mana GSZ target but I haven't had the time to test it yet. I'm toying with adding Wirewood Hivemaster in the Elven Champion/Ezuri/flex slot for many of the same reasons as it can also stall and put pressure on control without overextending much (ab)using Symbiote.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm curious what Aether Vial could do for this deck, as an alternative to Glimpse. If you can Vial in smaller dudes, your mana can be used to power out bigger dudes like Sylvan Messenger.

I'm also curious why Ezuri, Renegade Leader isn't in here x1 as a great Zenith target.

[Neil]

I wouldn't run Copperhorn unless I also ran Emrakul/Storm maindeck since it interferes with the beatface plan, and even then it would probably be better to run more Quirion Ranger in most cases. Can't say since I haven't tested it yet, but feel free to try it out yourself! I didn't post this only to stroke my own ego y'know.

right I'll proxie a version of your deck list and test it out. This is the deck list I will do pretty well.

11 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Mutavault

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Priest of Titania

4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri, renegade leader

3 Elvish Visionary
2 Sylvan Messenger

1 Viridian Shaman

2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Concordant Crossroads

3 Aether Vial

Changes are -3 Forests, -1 Wirewood, -1 Priest of Titania, -1 Elvish Champion, and -1 Elvish Visionary (I am not sure if taking out this one is so smart). +3 Mutavault, +1 Ezuri renegade leader, and +3 Aether Vial. Also replaced the Zealot with Viridian Shaman which really depends on your meta. I don't know if the Aether Vial is such a good idea but I want to to try it out.

[Neil]

Why not run Progenitus main deck? It can be played using GSZ for 11 mana. Or is that just not worth it?

[Infinitium]

I remember Eldariel using it to good effect in a similar deck (check my opening post), but I'm personally pretty lukewarm to it. Without Survival you can't really get rid of prog from your hand should you draw it, weakens the Glimpse plan somewhat and probably cannot be run alongside Sylvan Messengers efficiently. Also, having 4 mana + creatures + bomb on hand is already a pretty good hand, and being able to get to 11 mana is also a pretty good indicator that your opponent has run out of removal (getting Symbiote/Messenger here and swarming out usually enough to win in these situations anyway).

Likewise, the deck i posted at least doesn't have the mana curve to abuse Vial efficiently, and since the deck already cheats on mana naturally, have quite the few antisynergistic cards and can usually overwhelm countermagic anyway I don't really see how it furthers the general strategy of the deck (create lots of mana -> draw lots of cards -> swarm) overall. Do tell me how it pans out!

[Koby]

Since Corcordant Crossroads is already in the deck, and this deck is capable of producing an absurd amount of mana, and with the added effect of GSZ - Terastadon would be a good substitute for Progenitus. If you target your lands, you can get 18 power worth of creatures for 8 mana.

[Augustas]

not to be rude or something, but why you needed to create another combo elves thread when there's already one? This is just a little bit updated combo elf build, nothing more.

[Koby]

not to be rude or something, but why you needed to create another combo elves thread when there's already one? This is just a little bit updated combo elf build, nothing more.

The Combo Elves focuses on Glimpe of Nature and eschews playing with GSZ. The two cards play differently. Whereas Glimpse seeks to play hyper-efficient creatures (1 mana) in order to combo off in one turn, this deck uses GSZ to power out incrementally larger threats. It allows you to ramp into more and more powerful cards to recover card advantage (Messenger, et al).

This difference is subtle, but plays completely different with proper deck construction.

[ZeinVoncy]

I might be missing something here, but you guys are talking about using bounty to give +1/+1 three times to Joraga which gives all the rest of the elves +3/+3 right? If that is so doesn't Joraga require +1/+1 counters which bounty does not give. Am I forgetting something?

"Card Text: You may remove a green card in your hand from the game instead of paying Bounty of the Hunt's casting cost.
Put three +1/+1 counters, distributed any way you choose, on any number of target creatures.
Remove these counters at end of turn.

Oracle Text: You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Bounty of the Hunt's mana cost.
Distribute three +1/+1 counters among one, two, or three target creatures. For each +1/+1 counter you put on a creature this way, remove a +1/+1 counter from that creature at the beginning of the next cleanup step."

Just to clarify. Would only be good for that combat step.

[Neil]

"Card Text: You may remove a green card in your hand from the game instead of paying Bounty of the Hunt's casting cost.
Put three +1/+1 counters, distributed any way you choose, on any number of target creatures.
Remove these counters at end of turn.

Oracle Text: You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Bounty of the Hunt's mana cost.
Distribute three +1/+1 counters among one, two, or three target creatures. For each +1/+1 counter you put on a creature this way, remove a +1/+1 counter from that creature at the beginning of the next cleanup step."

Just to clarify. Would only be good for that combat step.

I was looking at the magiccards.info card picture

http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=bounty+of+the+hunt&v=card&s=cname

[Koby]

So I played a variant of Elf Advantage in a Daily Event on MTGO to a 4-0 finish with 27 participants.

List:
14 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Elvish Archdruid

4 Wirewood Symbiote

1 Viridian Shaman
1 Masked Admirers
1 Wood Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
1 Terastodon

2 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Fecundity
2 Nature's Claim
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vexing Shusher

This is essentially an update on my old Survival list, but cutting the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel combo to enable a more incremental approach. The choice of not running fetchland is strictly for Wood Elves as a way to recycle him via Wirewood Symbiote.

I do miss Concordant Crossroads, and it would immensely help out the alpha-strikes vs control, but alas, I didn't run them. Summoner's Pact is still pretty sick with all the lords, and will be essential to tutor up the Viridian Shaman vs the new artifact decks.

Round 1 - Affinity (2-1)
Game 1 (D) - Hand: 2x Forest, Fyndhorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, Wirewood Symbiote, Masked Admirers, Fauna Shaman
Fauna Shaman -> Viridian Shaman + Wirewood Symbiote. Destroy 2 artifacts per turn.

Game 2 (D) - Hand: Forest, Fyndhorn Elves, 2x Wirewood Symbiote, Fauna Shaman, Quirion Ranger, Elvish Visionary
Lose to a quick Ornithopter + Cranial Plating

Game 3 (P) - Hand: Forest, Llanowar Elves, 3x Elvish Visionary, Priest of Titania, Nature's Claim
Turn 3 Emrakul.

Round 2 - BW Discard (2-0)
Game 1 (D) - Hand: 2x Forest, 2x Elvish Archdruid, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Glimpse of Nature
Aggro beatdown with Symbiote providing advantage when it can. Glimpse seals the deal. (1st one is taken with discard)

Game 2 (D) - Hand: 2x Forest, Fyndhorn Elves, Glimpse of Nature, Wirewood Symbiote, Elvish Archdruid, Masked Admirers
Grind out card advantage with Visionaries and Masked Admirers. Fecundity means he can't ever win attrition wars, and I finish up with Ezuri providing overruns.

Round 3 - Aggro Bant (2-1)
Game 1 (P) - Hand: Forest, Fyndhorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, 2x Fauna Shaman, Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid
Elf, meet StP. Elf, meet FoW. Priest, meet no resistance, Glimpse and go off. Attack for 39 with 3 guys. :P

Game 2 (D) - Hand (mull a no-lander): 3x Forest, Llanowar Elves, Krosan Grip, Glimpse of Nature.
Bait some Glimpses, he fights over them, I play a few guys then run out of mana. He plays a Jitte while I'm trying to ramp to 15 mana for the topdecked Emrakul. :/

Game 3 (P) - Hand: Forest, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, Fyndhorn Elves, Priest of Titania, Fauna Shaman
Fauna Shaman and Wirewood meet removal, then I topdeck Masked Admirers and grind out card advantage vs his attackers, recycling Admirers about 3-4 times. Finally draw Ezuri and win with overrun damage.

Round 4 - UW Cb/Thopters (2-1)
Game 1 (P) - Hand: 4x Forest, Elvish Visionary, Wood Elves, Elvish Archdruid
He gets Counterbalance out turn 2, and I can't resolve any more spells. Jace finished me off.

Game 2 (P) - Hand: 2x Forest, Gaea's Cradle, Thorns of Amethyst, Fauna Shaman, Elvish Archdruid, Nature's Claim
I resolve Thorns, which slows him down a ton, then resolve a Fauna Shaman. Fortunately, I draw an Emrakul the same turn, and hard cast it on turn 5. Mise!

Game 3 (D) - Hand: 3x Forest, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Quirion Ranger, Vexing Shusher
Long story short: he ran out of time between EE/Recursion and Jace, and while he had the kill, he didn't have enough time to claim it. I win with 15 minutes on my clock to his 0.

Let me know if you're interested in any explanations or more info.

EDIT: For those who like a ton of information, here's some notes and chicken stratch:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tn6Liz5JQh-7Pxf8HE606HA&authkey=CJng08AK#gid=0

[Infinitium]

Congrats! How did Masked Admirers work out for you? I haven't seen anyone use them sans survival. How do they compare to Sylvan Messenger in the 4cc spot?

[Koby]

I haven't tested with Sylvan Messenger in this deck yet, but I can tell you that when I've got a Fauna Shaman on the board, and trying to keep up with removal that Masked Admirers help to recoup card advantage. He also allows you to continue cycling him thru Wirewood Symbiote through 1 Engineered Plague; granted not as good as Sylvan Messenger, but the ability to reuse him with Fauna Shaman is the primary focus here.

In essence, he's a Squee with the Elf subtype :)

[GGoober]

I came to my conclusion that Elven Advantage is superior to Elf combo. The reason (my personal opinion so please correct me if I'm flawed).

Elves is a deck that can and should consistently beat Merfolks/Gobs unless Perish is involved. In the combo version, you could go off much faster before they can get Perish online, which is a plus, but the combo version is more prone to disruption (hand/counter). Elven Advantage has a better attrition war since it plays more card-advantage engines instead of being entirely reliant on Glimpse (it could utilize the power of GSZ as a mid/late-game).

Since both combo and Elven Advantage lose majority of the games to combo, it would be good to forgo the combo matchup and focus on winning the conrol matchup, which Elven advantage is better at.

I maybe wrong, but this is my opinion on the list. I personally think that an Elf list should always be playing GSZ. There is no reason not to since it's both a tutor, tightens the maindeck, and elves have the ability to break GSZ more than any other deck given that the 'x' cost in GSZ is not a big issue for elves. Combo Elves probably cannot afford GSZ since they are focused on speed.

[(nameless one)]

Hey ruckus,

Congrats on the win.

Does Masked Admirers really work? And is Glimpse really that better than Messenger or you're just doing it to improve your curve?

Hopefully we'll hear more from you.

[Infinitium]

Masked Admirers used to be tits with SoTF; get Anger + big mana elf, then recur the admirers at a cost of GGG per survival target, and since you got untappers and eventually more PoT/Archdruid this quickly escalated into a manual combo win when you eventually just swung your deck in. You could also do pretty much the same thing with Sylvan Messenger and Symbiotes which was somewhat more mana and deck efficient (Messenger generally > Admirers as a standalone card should you draw it), but wasn't a guaranteed win the way Admirers was. This doesn't work with just the 1-2 activations per turn with Fauna of course, which makes me wonder if it's still worth it.

Glimpse is, well, Glimpse. It usually draws more cards than Messenger even in the lategame courtesy of Wirewood Symbiote, and the fact that it generally wins the game when resolved makes it the deck's equivalent to Lackey, except that it can't be removed or blocked. The 1 mana v. 4 mana is also very relevant because it pretty much nullifies the tempo gain of free counters (and in the case of Daze just nullifies it) Forcing people (sic) to burn a blue card + 1 life on your turn 2 and still have enough mana remaining to play whatever is a very good deal for you all thing's considered.

[GGoober]

I tested out the lists in the thread so far and found that I didn't like Sylvan Messenger a lot. He as good when he's flipping stuff well, but with 4 Symbiotes, 4 Glimpse, 4 GSZ and lands, I draw about 2 cards on average. For the 4-mana investment, I think I'm betting off bouncing Elvish Visionaries. I have been quite amazed by Visionary though. He's very similar to Silvergill Adept in Merfolks (which we all know is completely nuts by now in terms of tempo/board development).

I did find an interesting solution to the Living Wish/Emrakul clunkiness. Elven Advantage can't really play Emrakul MD since it's like saying I have to draw into Emrakul to win games. It can't be tutored with Natural Order and would require Fauna Shaman to be played. I like Rukus' list but I think Fauna Shaman is another turn slower (but the pro is giving more consistency and inevitability). The solution I found was: Fierce Empath.

I'll post the list I'm testing and explain why Empath fits quite nicely.

Lands: 16
14 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor (this is a must, with GSZ, it's not really about acceleration, it's about getting a land drop that may not be insured on turn 2 and turn 3 in a deck packing 16 lands)

Creatures: 37
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
2 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Joraga Warcaller
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader (not too impressed should be 4th Warcaller which is great comboing for just :G:)
1 Fierce Empath
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Emrakul
1 Regal Force

Non-creature: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

I'll explain a few reasoning on the differences from Infinitum's list. Infinitum if you can let me know if there're any flaws in my reasoning, I'd appreciate it since I do not play this deck as extensively as you did (just picked it up for 2 weeks)

- Nettle Sentinel: I agree it is bad because it only fulfills the purpose of combo'ing, or swinging once in awhile with lords. Regardless, drawing just 1 Sentinel greatly improves the consistency with Glimpse. I feel that even playing 1 copy in the deck is great since GSZ can fetch it out post-Glimpse when you need to, to fuel that additional mana to go off. There is basically no harm in running 1 copy at the very least since drawing GSZ->Nettle Sentinel can improve that goldfishing. Combo Elves need to run 4 because they are focused on speed, but Elven Advantage is focused on board/tempo development while having the option to combo a turn later. Nettle is decent without comboing as a beater, but once in play (via GSZ, greatly increases consistency).

- No Messengers: I posted the reason above. I think I would prefer to test Multani's Acolyte over Sylvan Messenger. I feel that the 4cmc is steep and only castable when the combo is going off fine, at that point, you either have to completely combo out to win instantly or just pass the turn and attack for the win, and Messenger doesn't necessarily ensure you combo out completely (average elf draws are 2/4 which is like playing 2 Elvish Visionaries).

- No Concordant: I'll get to the reason (see below).

- Fierce Empath:
This is a card that I've tested to be quite successful. Firstly, I he replaced the slot of Sylvan Messenger. Note that on paper this card doesn't seem to generate more advantage than Messenger, but what Empath does is to tutor for win/gas in the form of Emrakul/Regal Force.

Sylvan Messenger post-glimpse combo requires Symbiotes to be truly successful or requires good flips (getting 2 Elves barely pushes the consistency to continue glimpsing). Regardless, if you are using Messenger/Symbiote as an engine post-glimpse to fuel glimpse and draw cards, it is quite expensive: 3G + 3G + Elves costs. However, this is what Elven Advantage has currently because running Regal Force MD would require running Summoner's Pact for increased consistency. With GSZ, one can still fetch out Regal Force and go off, but sometimes you have a ton of mana and need to draw another spell, Empath gives you the option to cantrip one more time fetching Regal Force for 2G when you have excess mana. But the point to go fierce Empath-> Regal Force instead of just Regal Force is to have the Empath in play, which is most likely going to get bounced by a drawn Symbiote from Regal Force to untap a Priest to hardcast Emrakul when you play Empath grabbing Emrakul.

The most important part of Empath is the ability to fetch Emrakul. The reason I've cut Concordant is because I will always consistently get Emrakul online in situations where I've drawn Concordant. Concordant on-the-turn wins usually involve combo phases with enough draws/mana so you get a huge army to swing after comboing. Emrakul also follows the combo phase where you need enough draws/mana. Once you have your mana engine up, GSZ-> Fierce Empath->Emrakul and taking an extra turn is the same as going off on Concordant.

The singleton Empath also functions as another tutor with the elf subtype. If you drew him and not drawn GSZ, you can still tutor for Regal Force/Emrakul to go off.

Let me know what you think. Playing emrakul is sometimes win-moar but I think it's a guaranteed win when you can hardcast Emrakul. The issue in the past is the inability to play Emrakul consistently without using more non-elf cards like Living Wish. Rukus' Fauna Shaman is another approach but I think it's fundamentally a turn slower than this list with Empath.

How do I beat Perish?? lol (I know by not overextending)

[Koby]

How do I beat Perish?? lol (I know by not overextending)

Thran Lens, or splash white for the 1WG Elephant from Alara Reborn that makes your team indestructible. Perish is pretty much always a huge tempo loss. The best way is to anticipate them casting it and slow roll the aggro portion (say, set up a Priest of Titania + 2 elves, then cast everything and alpha-strike with Ezuri or Warcaller.

[(nameless one)]

Since there is a general concensus of not running Sylvan Messanger, and trying to gain tempo/board control, has anyone tried running Winter Orb on the main? It certainly takes advantage of mana-hungry decks while the damage isn't as much on our side of the board.

Also, would adding a single Staff of Domination dilute the deck? Back in the days (just before Alara showed up), I used to run a Beatdown X-land Stompy Elves with a singleton Staff of Domination. Its usually a win if I have it in play unanswered.

[Koby]

I could see making the case for Winter Orb vs slower control strategies (like UW/x CBtop, CFB CB/Top, and Landstill), whereas Thorn of Amethyst is already good vs these decks (taxing all their spells). Both would be good in conjunction, however if I had to chose one, I would chose Thorns as it helps against Combo decks too.

Similarly, Cloudstone Curio and Staff of Domination are both decent cards to run in this deck to give an extra edge. Personally, I would not run them because the Elf plan is usually sufficient. I would sooner run Living Wish for added versatility rather than dilute the deck with an extra "combo" element. This is perhaps my desire to run a more controlling version of the deck rather than a more combo-oriented. This explains my preference for Fauna Shaman in these builds too, as if I can keep one around I will almost surely win (similar to Survival tricks of old).

I also recommend to test out a maindeck Terastodon as the main utility/beef card. I typically find myself destroying my own Forests to be able to build a huge army. If I actually need to remove an opponent's card, I will target the rest of my lands so that I'm not facing Elephants.

Regarding Perish, I found that Masked Admirers helps to off-set the removal. Imagine a scenario where you did lose your dudes to Perish. Rebuying the Admirers with a mana dork allows you to jump back into the game more quickly than otherwise. This all depends on how much of a board presence your opponent has.

[Infinitium]

I really wouldn't cut Crossroads or Messenger. Crossroads is most likely our best win condition since it activates summoning-sick Priests midcombo and is probably the best card in the deck versus decks running mass removal. The only maindecked cards that Emrakul beats that Crossroads doesn't is Glacial Chasm lock and protected Solitary Confinements/Moats. Moat typically doesn't see play even in the decks that can afford it, and Lands/Enchantress are sufficiently good matchups (and essentially byes once you board in Emrakul) that you can afford to ignore them preside. Typically if you get to a board where you can generate those amounts of mana you are going to win the game with any combination of cards in the deck really - no need to weigh down your gameplan otherwise with uncastable fat.

I cold see cutting Sylvan Messengers down to a single copy if you're desperate for space, but -don't- cut it out of the deck altogether. It usually being a 3-for-1 on its own is a big reason why the deck can win topdeck wars even without an engine in place, and unlike Regal Force it's actuallly good versus sweepers. In my experience it's also pretty vital in Glimpsing off since unlike ElfBall your gameplan usually involves playing out most of your hand preglimpse, at which point you often get to the situation where you have enough mana to do whatever but next to none cards on hand. Messenger solves this by being a virtual 6-for-1 Glimpsing off just like that (remember every non-elf you draw will stay undrawn until you use GSZ again, meaning that even a completely dud usually saves you 4 turns of drawing whatever).

Empath is.. eh as far as I can tell. At 3 mana (and requiring at least 7 more to do anything worthile) it needs an already winning board position to work properly, at which point you really have to ask yourself why you aren't running Staff of Domination or Cloudstone Curio and just win by default. Terastodon is good when it resolves, but again it isn't a scaling threat. Sentinel as a 1-of looks good on paper, but when are you really going to sun it up? The decks CMC is too high to reliably win off Heritage Druid/Sentinel alone, if they lack removal for Heritage Druid they'll lack removal for PoT as well and if you're going for the longterm game Symbiote is just plain better.

As far as Curio/Staff goes in general I haven't felt the need to test them, ever. I generally shy away from cards that does that little on their own and 3 mana isn't trivial. They admittedly do have quite the few gamewinning synergies however.

[(nameless one)]

Hey ruckus,

with your MTGO run, did you wish you had something else on your main? What would you have removed?

Also this goes out for everyone, I read somewhere (can't remember if it was the Combo Thread) about running Viridian Corruptor over Viridian Shaman. The reason is using infect as a defense. It can also be used to pull out win while Ezuri is online. Yes, Corruptor itself trying to beat the opponent is retarded but would anyone actually try playtesting this?

[GGoober]

Infinitum, I was thinking in my list to drop the 2nd sentinel to +1 messenger. That way, GSZ can fetch emergency Sentinel when I'm out of untappers/priests to use and continue to fuel a little more elves with sentinel, while having the backup Elvish Visionary on drugs aka Sylvan Messenger. In either case, running a 1/1 split and drawing them naturally is still decent, but there's always the option to grab them with GSZ.

Infinitum have you tested with 8 visionary effects using multani's acolyte? I'm assuming that such a list would require quite a heavier investment on turn 3 (needing more mana) but should be very consistent once you glimpsed. I understand if you do not want to test Empath. Empath for me is mainly to grab Emrakul, or simply draw into him which tutors Terrastadon postboard or Regal/Emrakul force maindeck. He's the only way i think you can run Emrakul MD and consistently draw Emrakul without relying on Fauna Shaman or Living Wishes.

@rukus; sometimes I'm tempted to splash white, giving better postboard sideboard against combo (Teeg via GSZ) and Dauntless Escort via GSZ and perhaps even running Chants against combo/control pre-glimpsing. But I think for 16 lands, Elves already have a very unstable manabase without playing Elves (which so happen are going to get murdered by Perish/firespout postboard). White would give more options, the ability to use mirror Entity (another lord) to go infinite and be an incredible manasink.

[Koby]

ruckus,
with your MTGO run, did you wish you had something else on your main? What would you have removed?

Also this goes out for everyone, I read somewhere (can't remember if it was the Combo Thread) about running Viridian Corruptor over Viridian Shaman. The reason is using infect as a defense. It can also be used to pull out win while Ezuri is online. Yes, Corruptor itself trying to beat the opponent is retarded but would anyone actually try playtesting this?

I was very happy with Wood Elves, so much to the point that I would often forgo recycling Elvish Visionary with Symbiote. Realistically, it only costs "two" mana since it untaps a forest once it resolves. It has the added effect of removing your dead land-draws, and allows you to go into the late game much smoother with the increased resilience against sweepers. I think I had a few games where I had 5 forest out by turn 3 with the synergies of Wirewood Symbiote. Both are good options however.

I found myself boarding out Joraga Warcaller against the decks with removal in place for Krosan Grip. Sometimes, I would board out Priest of Titania as well. Against aggro, I would board out Terastodon and/or Masked Admirers. These were mostly to make room for the extra utility from the SB.

Against blue control, half the battle is knowing how to bait the correct spells and which order to play out your threats. It maybe useful to try to draw out removal/counters by playing Fauna Shaman out first instead of Priest of Titania. Or testing the waters with Visionary instead of rushing out that Shaman. This comes from intuition after playing the deck for numerous months, and playtesting against good opponents will help youi to realize which way strategy works best for you.

I do enjoy this deck for it's incremental card advantage approach rather than the all-in Combo variants. It also allows me to play bad cards like Wood Elves :P



@rukus; sometimes I'm tempted to splash white, giving better postboard sideboard against combo (Teeg via GSZ) and Dauntless Escort via GSZ and perhaps even running Chants against combo/control pre-glimpsing. But I think for 16 lands, Elves already have a very unstable manabase without playing Elves (which so happen are going to get murdered by Perish/firespout postboard). White would give more options, the ability to use mirror Entity (another lord) to go infinite and be an incredible manasink.

I see no reason why splashing colors would be out of the question. I can imagine a few different splashes:

Red splash - Anger, Magus of the Moon, Squee, Devour-Dragon (much weaker w/o Survival now)
White splash - Mirror Entity, Canonist (SB), Chant effects (SB)
Blue splash - Intuition, Brainstorm [Vengevine]

White is probably the best splash at this point, just because of Teeg, Dauntless Escort, and Mirror Entity. However GSZ can't find Entity, which would diminish the utility of that card in your build. I've ran versions that splash both White and Red in the old Survival days, specifically for Silence/Chant against Storm combo, which is a better option than Thorn of Amethyst against such decks.

Most of these splashes require a heavy Fetchland component. 16 lands (not counting Gaea's Cradle) is more than sufficient, however I remember odd-ball manabases that featured 3 Forest, 3 Savannah, 3 Taiga and 8 fetchland before in the old Survival builds. This mana base works much better in builds that don't solely rely on Glimpse as the win-con, and work well for this deck for the purpose of splashes.

Wood Elves helps to stabilize the manabase against sweepers by ramping you out of awkward low-land draws. By recycling Wood Elves, you can force the control player into fighting over marginal elves, and misplaying. It is immensely intimidating to control decks when you have more lands out than they do. :)

I would also consider testing out a Fauna Shaman/Vengevine build of this deck as a mitigation factor for Perish. Elves is already pre-disposed to triggering Vengevine, as Nass/Hatch have demonstrated at the SCG San Jose open.

[Infinitium]

Sylvan Ranger generally does the same thing cheaper than Wood Elves as long as you run only basics. Splashes are very possible, but ultimately I feel that they just open you up to a new host of problems. As Rukcus pointed out having 4+ lands in play is pretty much your lifeline for longer games as it's what allows you to rebuild once your initial mana elves are removed. If you absolutley need to splash the blue one for Intuition/Vine is proven strong, and it also allows you to run Coiling oracle as visionaries 5+. Spell Pierce also looks decent on paper in the sideboard.

Then again, you could just run more Elves instead of (comparatively narrow) splash cards and just keep to the attrition plan. BTW, I usually bring out Hermit Druids against decks packing sweepers btw; the card is useful for kickstarting your board early but overextending is actively bad here, and Joraga adds up with the the big mana duders and Symbiote to overload the opponents spot removal.

[ScatmanX]

Why can't we just run 1 Teeg and 1 Dauntless Escort SB without the W Splash?
It's a bummer if you draw them, but GSZting them seems great. We don't need W to get them into play.

[Infinitium]

Sure you could, but as you pointed out having uncastable cards makes mulligan decisions awkward, and they're dismal topdecks. I'm currently testing out Wren's Run Packmaster in the Champion spot and thus far it's promising. Granted it's useless miscombo and pushes the deck ever so slightly against the midrange, but on the other hand it's a 3-turn clock on it's own, locks the ground down against aggressive decks and if you champion a big mana or card elf it creates quite the disincentive against sweepers.

[fresscott]

What's your board plan vs. Zoo and Counterbalance? In playtesting I'm having trouble winning games post-board against those decks, especially if they pack Firespout or Grim Lavamancer.

It's entirely possible that I'm simply misplaying in those matchups, so any general pointers are appreciated as well.

[Koby]

Splashing white for Absolute Law would be a good consideration in you're afraid of red removal.

[uncletiggy]

i play a deck very Similar to this except i run two Pack Hunts in it and it's worked wonders for me, just something to think about.

[alphastorm]

have you considered the new card called triumph of the hordes? It can easily win the game on the spot with only a few creatures.

[Infinitium]

What's your board plan vs. Zoo and Counterbalance? In playtesting I'm having trouble winning games post-board against those decks, especially if they pack Firespout or Grim Lavamancer.

It's entirely possible that I'm simply misplaying in those matchups, so any general pointers are appreciated as well.

Vs Zoo I usually don't side at all unless they're heavily GY-dependant (eg mancer + Goyf + KotR), in which case I usually side out Zealot and Viridian Shaman (my current flex spot) unless I'm certain they'll pack Jitte for a couple of Relics. The plan in general is to survive until the mid to lategame, where Zoo generally cannot keep up. Wirewood Symbíote helps a lot here by giving you indefinite chumps (as do Quirion Ranger -> Dryad Arbor in corner cases), and it does help a ton to be able to combo out early, but don' be afraid to use Glimpse aggressively (like drawing 1 or 2 cards at a time) to build up the board through their removal and chumps, also we can generally afford to trade a few creatures for one of theirs due to our superior card advantage. The mathcup isn't great by any means (and gets worse the smaller the Zoo deck gets), but since Zoo also has to be very reactive with removal it's nowhere near as bad as it is on paper.

For countertop decks (and control in general) I generally side out Heritage Druid for Krosan Grips. They will most likely have an answer to your first combo attempts anyhow, and using Heritage to overextend the board (whilst not swinging in for damage) doesn't really help the aggro backup plan because of 'Spout/EE. Siding out a few cards for Relics might also be a good idea depending on their build (I generally go for the flex spot and a few llanowar elves to make room) since it messes with both their big beaters and Academy Ruins/EE should they run it. Generally as long as you can answer CB 1-for-1 and keep them off the EE lock or Jace you should be able to win the long game. What I usually go for to make this happen is trying to keep just enough creatures on the table to force them to sweep it or risk being blown out by glimpse and then try to outdraw and outmana them.

Oh, and do keep hands with lots of lands and/or Visionaries to draw into land if you expect them to pack lots of removal, as the easiest way to lose is to not have enough permanent mana sources to fight the hate.


have you considered the new card called triumph of the hordes? It can easily win the game on the spot with only a few creatures.

It could, but having a few creatures and any 4cc mana card (be it natural order, GSZ or Messenger) generally means you're winning anyhow, and TotH is pretty horrible when you're not winning in one shot with it. It effectively fogs your entire team if the opponent runs enough removal and/or blockers to make you deal less than 10 with it.

[Infinitium]

As for an update on what I'm currently, not much has changed really. Still fiddling around with the flex slots so I'm currently -1 Messenger -1 Elvish Champion +1 Viridian Shaman +1 Imperious Perfect compared to my list posted in the OP. Having Shaman maindecked isn't mandatory by any means, but it does give you a very comfortable long game versus Chalice, Affinity and assorted bombs without having to rely on going all in.

Perfect I'm currently liking more than Champion and Hivemaster both; for the extra mana investment you get a very credible standalone threat, it has a bigger immediate impact on the board once it hits and it can still poop out multiple dudes (with a relevant creature type) per turn in conjunction with untappers.

I'm thinking maybe going down to 1 Messenger might be the right call after all; it's still only a GSZ away for most of the situations where you really need it and having both on hand was indeed pretty slow.

Oh, and late reply @Metalwalker: No, I haven't tested Multani's Acolyte in this deck yet. The Echo just seem like a huge tempo sink in all (making it an actively bad 2-drop among other things), and Wirewood is usually the limiting factor in setting up that particular combo anyhow (since it usually just doesn't live if the opponent can help it).

[fresscott]

Thank you, this is excellent and just what I was looking for.


Vs Zoo I usually don't side at all unless they're heavily GY-dependant (eg mancer + Goyf + KotR), in which case I usually side out Zealot and Viridian Shaman (my current flex spot) unless I'm certain they'll pack Jitte for a couple of Relics.

The Zoo list I was testing against was indeed running Lavamancer, Goyf, and KotR next to 4 StP and 4 Bolts - and then added 2 Ethersworn Canonist and 2 Jitte from the board. I guess that's about the worst Zoo configuration this deck could be up against.

I run 3 Masticore in the board so my plan was something like
+3 Masticore
+2 Viridian Shaman
-2 Crossroads
-3 ??? (some combination of Heritage Druid/Messenger/Warcaller, don't quite recall)

I'll try siding in Relics as well. I'm not entirely sold on the Masticores on paper, but they seemed very, very strong once in play.

I'm not sure I'll have the time to test them but Hivemasters might also work. Deranged Hermit, Wren's Run Packmaster? Hmmmm. Maybe.


The mathcup isn't great by any means (and gets worse the smaller the Zoo deck gets), but since Zoo also has to be very reactive with removal it's nowhere near as bad as it is on paper.

My current board plan is to ignore decks like Dredge and Storm and instead try to massively improve the matchups vs. Zoo and CounterTop. I'm not sure that'll work out. But hence the Masticores. They're the best all-round weapon I've found so far.



For countertop decks (and control in general) I generally side out Heritage Druid for Krosan Grips. They will most likely have an answer to your first combo attempts anyhow, and using Heritage to overextend the board (whilst not swinging in for damage) doesn't really help the aggro backup plan because of 'Spout/EE. Siding out a few cards for Relics might also be a good idea depending on their build (I generally go for the flex spot and a few llanowar elves to make room) since it messes with both their big beaters and Academy Ruins/EE should they run it. Generally as long as you can answer CB 1-for-1 and keep them off the EE lock or Jace you should be able to win the long game. What I usually go for to make this happen is trying to keep just enough creatures on the table to force them to sweep it or risk being blown out by glimpse and then try to outdraw and outmana them.

This is good stuff. I'm pretty sure after reading this that I was misplaying and mis-boarding in that matchup (especially wrt what I was siding out).


Oh, and do keep hands with lots of lands and/or Visionaries to draw into land if you expect them to pack lots of removal, as the easiest way to lose is to not have enough permanent mana sources to fight the hate.

Very true. I was actually thinking of finding room for either the third Quirion Ranger or another basic Forest. I noticed that if I was taking mulligans it was mostly due to lack of mana/untappers. Haven't kept records on that, however, so I wouldn't be entirely sure.


Finally, what do you think of running a single Pendelhaven? Unfortunately it doesn't take our creatures out of Bolt range, so it may not be worth it.

[Infinitium]

The Zoo list I was testing against was indeed running Lavamancer, Goyf, and KotR next to 4 StP and 4 Bolts - and then added 2 Ethersworn Canonist and 2 Jitte from the board. I guess that's about the worst Zoo configuration this deck could be up against.

I run 3 Masticore in the board so my plan was something like
+3 Masticore
+2 Viridian Shaman
-2 Crossroads
-3 ??? (some combination of Heritage Druid/Messenger/Warcaller, don't quite recall)

My experience is that once you get to untap with enough mana to make Masticore useful you're usually in good shape anyhow, and it does open you up for StP in your upkeep. More than 1 Viridian Shaman is probably overkill as well because of GSZ. Again Jitte represents quite the mana investment for them and again only gets relevant in the lategame (and we have Symbiote and Quirion/Arbor to stall it in a pinch should they lack removal).

I wouldn't cut Crossroads as the card severely punishes Zoo for tapping out at any point in the game - Crossroads, Titania, Elf, Elf, Elf, Symbiote, Elf, Warcaller, kill isn't an uncommon line of play even without glimpse. Against the above list I'd probably just go -1 Zealot -2 Heritage (it's only a 1/1 and doesn't accelerate your turn 2) +3 Relics.

Don't worry too much about Canonist unless they can back it up with a clock. It slows down them as well (albeit not as much as they run instant removal), and it only really shuts down the Glimpse plan.


I'm not sure I'll have the time to test them but Hivemasters might also work. Deranged Hermit, Wren's Run Packmaster? Hmmmm

Again, don't worry about the midgame engines and cards - the difficult Zoo hands are the ones that will kill you and everything you play before the game gets to that point.


My current board plan is to ignore decks like Dredge and Storm and instead try to massively improve the matchups vs. Zoo and CounterTop. I'm not sure that'll work out. But hence the Masticores. They're the best all-round weapon I've found so far.

Dredge is actualy highly winnable even with intermediate boarding, and if your meta also have any amount of Reanimator it's probably worth packing 6 gravehate slots. The sideboard is generally very flexible since the only cards you absolutely need to shore up the middling mathcups are 4 Grips.


Very true. I was actually thinking of finding room for either the third Quirion Ranger or another basic Forest. I noticed that if I was taking mulligans it was mostly due to lack of mana/untappers. Haven't kept records on that, however, so I wouldn't be entirely sure.

The decks manabase is funny like that, trying to balance a relatively low amount of lands with an excuberant amount of killable accelerators - with 8 virtual Llanowars you have 23 mana producers on turn two, and when you factor in Heritage Druids, PoT, Archdruids and untappers that's well over half the deck comitted to mana production (amongst other things). I've tried adding Sylvan Ranger/Wood Elves as a Symbiote target to artificially boost the landcount, but it's hard to justify the spots vs. better accelerants or stuff that actually kills the opponent.


Finally, what do you think of running a single Pendelhaven? Unfortunately it doesn't take our creatures out of Bolt range, so it may not be worth it.

Well, we already run Cradle and Arbor as Wasteland targets so it's definetly viable. Being another out to early Lavamancer/SGC doesn't hurt either, and utility 2/x's are common enough to skewer combat math quite a lot just by having it available. I've seen it been mentioned every now and again in a variety of threads, and in the end it just comes down to that it's hard to quantify whether you win more games with the pump than you lose by being manascrewed. I'd forgotten about it though so I might take it for another spin. Thanks for the heads up.

[Bongo]

I've been testing this deck for a little while and came up with some issues:

- Mental Misstep: seriously, everyone and his grandma seems to run it, I've seen it in decks where it (theoretically) shouldn't belong, like MonoR, Zoo and HymnTourach decks. Blue decks obviously are packing it. Misstep is really really annoying, as it stops Glimpse and Warcaller. Pre-NPH, I was able to play through some amount of counters and removal, but Misstep feels like it breaks the neck of Elves

- high mulligan rate: whenever I mulligan, it's because of no-land hands. I feel one more land is needed, as Cradle and Dryad Arbor are too unreliable for me to count as "real land". Another Forest or maybe Pendelhaven seems fine.

- Burn: lately, there has been a suprising amount of Burn running around. I want one silver bullet against it, would you choose Essence Warden or Wellwisher? Also, Grim Lavamancer is some serious shit, and I'm thinking about running a Masticore main (also against stuff like Goblin Sharpshooter, the mirror match and random annoying stuff). What would you cut for a Masticore?

- @infinitium: do you plan to complete the matchup guides on the first pages? What would you side OUT in the particular matchups?


For reference, the list I'm currently using:

15 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Viridian Zealot

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Concordant Crossroads

[Infinitium]

Regarding lands, well, like I said it's a tradeoff due to the nature of the deck. Feel free to run as many as you're comfortable with.


- Burn: lately, there has been a suprising amount of Burn running around. I want one silver bullet against it, would you choose Essence Warden or Wellwisher? Also, Grim Lavamancer is some serious shit, and I'm thinking about running a Masticore main (also against stuff like Goblin Sharpshooter, the mirror match and random annoying stuff). What would you cut for a Masticore?

From your list I'd cut Ezuri and a Forest/Llanowar for a couple of Living Wishes and run Masticore in the sideboard instead of main. I'd say Pendelhaven main is probably the better miser answer to 'Mancer/Sharpshooter, as Masticore really is a liability unless you can win off the back of it alone (clunky, not an Elf, card disadvantage vs swords etc). I haven't tested either of them, but Essence Warden looks better than Wellwisher offhand; Burn is pretty much forced to answer either immediatly, but at least Warden is cheaper and gives you an odd few lifepoints beforehand.


- @infinitium: do you plan to complete the matchup guides on the first pages? What would you side OUT in the particular matchups?

Whenever I'm done procrastinating, and as I'm writing a bachelor thesis (or some equivalent thereof) that might take a while. I usually side out Heritage Druid versus decks packing sweepers (going for the long game) and some assortment of Joraga/Messenger/Zealot/Viridian Shaman in matchups where speed matters (Dredge, combo, Burn etc etc). All other spots are generally too tight to mess with.

[Bongo]

Yeah, Pendelhaven as an additional land seems working the best for me. Essence Warden seems like an good choice, as a silver bullet in the sideboard it seems to be quite good.
However, I don't agree on cutting Ezuri, that guy has been awesome for me. Especially in conjunction with Symbiote to protect the team.


What's your opinion on the Mental Misstep issue? I'm trying Vexing Shusher in the SB as a tutor target for GSZ. So far, it hasn't performed to my taste.. Any ideas on how to fight MM? (Playing through it is not always possible)

[ZeinVoncy]

Just curious, but how is that last list presented not Elven Combo?

[Infinitium]

No Nettle Sentinel, less 1-drops, more creatures with an actual impact on the gamestate.

I think the best course of action versus misstep would be to ignore it - sure it makes our blue matchup slightly worse due to them not only having force as their only relevant counter (and not being card disadvantage to boot), but we still run a lot of 1-drops that has to be answered quickly and they can only run 4 missteps still (which they have to cut other cards for). I'm going to wait for the hype around the card to settle down before I worry about the decks it'll eventually see play in (most likely Merfolk, tempo and UGx midrange decks).

[Kich867]

This is something I'm trying to understand as well, this deck is Elven Combo, that last list is just like, a bad version of elven combo, so...what the hell? You don't need Nettle Sentinel to play Elf Combo if you're running 4x Priest and 4x Archdruid so long as you have quirion rangers and wirewood symbiotes, which..that..deck-list above runs. Those alone result in you being able to play your entire deck rather easily. I'm currently running elf-combo with no nettle sentinels and all they would really do is make it a bit more consistent.

Removing them and keeping every other card in the deck and then saying "This is a different deck because it runs Ezuri and Crossroads" isn't very legitimate.

When I saw Elven Advantage I was assuming it was going to be something more along the lines of the cheap / efficient huge elves that are sick nasty (Wren's Run Vanquisher, Tolara's Battalion, most of the warrior-elves in general etc). But...now there's just two threads for Elf Combo and one of them doesn't have any content..

Because like, yeah I get it, it doesn't have emrakul / regal force / nettle sentinel, but it's still at it's core the elf combo (Glimpse + Mana elves and ways to repeat it) with a different win condition. Instead of ramping into a big creature, you pump a huge joraga and swing with haste. Which is something Elf Combo does anyways, so...

[ZeinVoncy]

This is something I'm trying to understand as well, this deck is Elven Combo, that last list is just like, a bad version of elven combo, so...what the hell? You don't need Nettle Sentinel to play Elf Combo if you're running 4x Priest and 4x Archdruid so long as you have quirion rangers and wirewood symbiotes, which..that..deck-list above runs. Those alone result in you being able to play your entire deck rather easily. I'm currently running elf-combo with no nettle sentinels and all they would really do is make it a bit more consistent.

Removing them and keeping every other card in the deck and then saying "This is a different deck because it runs Ezuri and Crossroads" isn't very legitimate.

When I saw Elven Advantage I was assuming it was going to be something more along the lines of the cheap / efficient huge elves that are sick nasty (Wren's Run Vanquisher, Tolara's Battalion, most of the warrior-elves in general etc). But...now there's just two threads for Elf Combo and one of them doesn't have any content..

Because like, yeah I get it, it doesn't have emrakul / regal force / nettle sentinel, but it's still at it's core the elf combo (Glimpse + Mana elves and ways to repeat it) with a different win condition. Instead of ramping into a big creature, you pump a huge joraga and swing with haste. Which is something Elf Combo does anyways, so...

Agreed with everything said here. Same shell, just weaker. If it's trying to go aggro I'd at least run more Lords and at least something to put them over the top like Eldrazi Monument or Coat of Arms. Otherwise you're looking to weak "combo out" a bunch of elves. In that case, I'd at least try out a Genesis Wave or two.

I apologize if I'm totally off, but I'm at least not alone in this. I'd like to understand the decktype better seeing as I have always love Elves and current run the Combo version.

[uncletiggy]

I try to look at it as what purpose does Glimpse serve in both decks, in combo elves the Deck's built around it and without it it's in trouble, in this deck try to look at it as more of an Ancestral Recall.

[Infinitium]

I try to look at it as what purpose does Glimpse serve in both decks, in combo elves the Deck's built around it and without it it's in trouble, in this deck try to look at it as more of an Ancestral Recall.

Pretty much this. Look, I'm not going to argue whether to play this or Combo Elves. I've given my reasons regardingwhat separates the decks at the beginning of the thread, and they're not bound to change soon whether you agree with them or not. Feel free to ask questions about it, but going back and forth about that particular topic over and again isn't improving the quality of the thread.

[Kich867]

Pretty much this. Look, I'm not going to argue whether to play this or Combo Elves. I've given my reasons regardingwhat separates the decks at the beginning of the thread, and they're not bound to change soon whether you agree with them or not. Feel free to ask questions about it, but going back and forth about that particular topic over and again isn't improving the quality of the thread.

In your opening post you state explicitly that this is just an aggro variant of elf-combo,


I'd like to spark a discussion on the more Tribal Aggro-oriented versions of Elf combo in this thread.

so it's not really about the quality of the thread, it's about the redundancy of it and how this could just be simply placed in the elf-combo deck as an alternative to the current win conditions; which still vary mind you. They didn't produce a separate thread for the Eldrazi ramp / Storm combo / Aggro plan (which your deck falls under) that are already listed as win conditions and they really don't need their own threads to be discussed.

The only difference is that the current elf decks run an aggro plan as a backup, whereas this focuses more heavily on it, but it's...still the same deck. Realistically all they would have to do is drop a singleton Concordant Crossroads or two in the deck and it would operate the exact same way, just more consistently.

[uncletiggy]

i wouldn't go so far to say it's redundant, or lacking quality, it's a middle ground between no elves and combo. My list plays 12 lords 13 if you count ezuri, and fierce empath to tutor for either emrakul, terastodon, or regal, it's more of a "fair" hybrid of NO and Combo that can be made to look like either game one. Haven't taken it to a tournament but it faired pretty well last week at my local store against some top tier decks, it fight's through hate better then NO or combo IMO but i don't have my NO's yet so who am i to talk :(

[Koby]

The biggest difference between the lists is the inclusion of Sylvan Messenger. The Combo Elves lists don't run this card as it's too expensive to cast, and instead focuses on Nettle Sentinel/heritage Druid engine to power out the deck.

It's a small, but subtle difference.

[ZeinVoncy]

okay, didn't mean to start up any hot topics, I was just curious as how it was different and it was explained, thank you.

I see the subtle differences, why not use Genesis Wave though? That would spew out a lot more then Sylvan Messenger could and would be more useful.

[Infinitium]

Because it's not a scaling threat, or at least not a very good one. Cards that draws cards start off good at low to intermediate mana and rapidly spiral out of control from there, as does the tutors and Warcaller. Genesis Wave on the other hand isn't really worthwile unless you commmit 6+ mana into it. This is relevant since most smart opponents will target your mana producers, meaning that at any given point in the game you are most likely either starved for mana or figuratively swimming in it. Being able to actually cast your card advantage cards in these situations helps a ton.

[GrimLavamancer]

nobody is playing this list anymore?
Just started testing it a bit, besides that RUG tempo deck are a TOTAL pain, any idea for some solution at this?

[Infinitium]

Almost exclusively, but then again I seem to be the only one (and repeatedly buffing ones own pet threads is just poor internet courtesy all things considered).

The easiest quick fix to improve RUG is to run Relic of Progenitus over Faerie Macabre in the SB in order to slow down Grim/Goyf (this generally applies to all Uxx noncombo decks since the GY tends to be their major source of card advantage/quality), but the combination of evasive creatures and red removal (especially Fire//Lavamancer) is rough any way you cut it. You still easily win the lategame so stalling with Wirewood Symbiote is your friend here (it also helps vs Fire, always tutor for it if given the choice), as is remembering they don't always get their godhand and that their Daze/Stifle/Force package is generally useless against you game 1.

[GrimLavamancer]

sad news, I believe we have our chance as much as other elf deck... guess they are too scared to try things out :tongue:

ty for the reply, will look and try.

[igri_is_a_bk]

When I saw "Elven Advantage", I assumed it was an homage to Survival Advantage, so I figured it would use Fauna Shaman. Why not drop the whole Glimpse angle, since you can run Messengers and find them with Shaman or GSZ? You could also run Vengevine as an answer to sweepers. Something like;

14 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Vengevine
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot

This isn't perfect, but I'd rather run more elves over Glimpse if I'm not dedicated to comboing. Wren's Run Vanquisher and Talara's Battalion may deserve some spots too.

What about a version like this, with Fauna Shaman?

[GrimLavamancer]

It seems someone got your idea into action, wasn't it you itself by any change? :tongue:


This is the list (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7265&iddeck=52873)tha made a decent placement recently:

Main news are that it runs Fauna Shaman main deck, probably for Mirror entity, and Vengevine as game 2 side plan.

What do you guys think?
I would love to splash black for Vengevine side plan, but I am not confidant in those double splash...
I mean, we can Win game one with Concordant Crossroad + Lots of elves as well as this list can with Mirror Entity boosted's dudes... Or is the mirror entity infinite trick Better?

[Kich867]

It seems someone got your idea into action, wasn't it you itself by any change? :tongue:


This is the list (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7265&iddeck=52873)tha made a decent placement recently:

Main news are that it runs Fauna Shaman main deck, probably for Mirror entity, and Vengevine as game 2 side plan.

What do you guys think?
I would love to splash black for Vengevine side plan, but I am not confidant in those double splash...

The list you posted is a standard elf-combo list give or take a few things (namely no-prog sideboard). The goal of that list is to infinite out with mirror entity and swing for an arbitrarily large amount of damage / if removal heavy, just beat down with vengevines.

[GrimLavamancer]

standard combo, last time I checked, runs Nettle Sentinel, Emrakul, only one Joraga and not all times, plus Summoner Pact... how can this compare?

It seems this dude chose the package of Mirror Entity over Concordant crossroad, and then snapped in the Vengevine Side Plan, but it's miles away from the standard combo elves.

[Kich867]

standard combo, last time I checked, runs Nettle Sentinel, Emrakul, only one Joraga and not all times, plus Summoner Pact... how can this compare?

It seems this dude chose the package of Mirror Entity over Concordant crossroad, and then snapped in the Vengevine Side Plan, but it's miles away from the standard combo elves.

It compares because it's basically the same thing. Elf lists that aren't terrible don't run that many lords, or, alternatively, they focus on lords and untappers. That's all that list is, drop a lord > mirror entity > infinite out and win. I've dropped nettle sentinels out of my elf combo list occasionally--the deck doesn't perform that differently I just didn't like how prone to removal lords were and enjoyed the explosiveness of the nettle-heritage win.

Fauna Shaman Vengevine plan has been around for months, as has mirror entity (which I feel is a stronger list than mono green anyways). Wren's Run Packmaster is probably the only interesting addition to the deck.

Which, actually, is kind of a cool way to semi-infinite out? Use ranger, champion ranger, bounce packmaster, use ranger, bounce packmaster, use ranger, and so on. You could get several extra uses out of ranger given the land. I don't really see the point of it in general though, as you could similarly just go infinite with mirror entity and swing for a bagillion damage.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm failing to see the point of the lone Viridan Zealot now. The only enchantment this deck cares about is Engineered Plague, right? And the Zealot can't help there. The curve looks very high for Counterbalance to hurt, plus nobody plays Cb. Moat I have never seen in over four years of Legacy, so what else? Seems like a wasted slot to me. Viridian Shaman deserves a spot, but not the Zealot. That list you posted agrees with me.

Talking about that list, less than four Symbiote looks very wrong. That's my favorite card in Elves and is easily the most impressive individual creature.

[GrimLavamancer]

I agree Igri, I have not played Zealot since a while, I never find it needed.
And About the 4th Symbiote... I Guess it was just one of those personal choices, sometimes you do not want to lose an elf that could have attacked, but most of time this is not a problem for us since we have Crossroad to give them all haste.

[Infinitium]

Well, I've had to (reluctantly) agree that VZ doesn't pull it's weight either. It was mainly in as a last ditch resort for CB back when I first started to play around with this. It has some extra utility compared to VS, and occasionally it is nice to have 2 answers to artifacts MD but yeah. Tech of yesteryear. Tried cutting it a whilse back as well and don't really see the need to return to it as it is.

As for that list it's rather confusing I'd say. No Elven Visionary for one thing, so it cannot actually generate card advantage outside of Glimpse for one thing. Lots of mana outlets though. Not sure if the splashes are worth it since Wasteland/Stifle with removal looks like it will get that deck hard, and it isn't like he doesn't run on-color alternatives to Entity. The 3 WS is probably due to the lack of Visionaries, and around 6 untappers to 8 big mana Elves is around the correct ratio in testing. QR is probably better in this deck since it protects the mana sources. Not Symbiote good, but I see where he's coming from.

I've used Packmaster as MD sweeper insurance and general mana outlet/standalone threat. It isn't bad, but quite pricey at 4cc and an Elf, and at that point you might just bite the opportunity cost and go for Natural Order MD.

[GrimLavamancer]

anyone else has abismal to depressing performances against reanimator main deck (and post sideboard too if you are not running more than 4 graveyard hate???) :cry:

[Infinitium]

Try running Ooze maindecked. It's fairly broken with GSZ, and has good synergy with the deck overall what with the average life expectancy of the elves. Seeing as pretty much all card advantage engines, recursive removal and fat creatures are dependent on the GY as well it's hard to justify not running it in this meta (I noticed I sideboarded it in versus pretty much anything anyhow). I'm having it replace Sylvan Messenger for now to see how well it fares, but it's all good so far. Other than that siding in Faerie Macabre (and Emrakul to mise S&T) and praying for a semi-decent hand is the best you can hope for, and it's still very much an uphill fight sadly.

Still not happy with the SB, currently trying out 2 Vengevines and the full 4 Essence Wardens for now. Having Vengevines to push through the last points of damage versus control is pretty cool once you've exhausted their spot removal, and Essence Warden is just very good to stall into the mid to lategame versus aggressive decks in general. It's even "good" versus storm combo since it can mess up their math some, and it effectively shuts of EtW as a viable win condition. Not very subtle but what the hell. It works.

[GrimLavamancer]

Hi guys, how are you doing?
I kept playing the deck, since I find it very solid, but recently I've experienced the need of some kind of removal main deck... I mean, something that could solve troublesome cards like Peacekeeper (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/138.html), Blazing Archon (http://magiccards.info/pd3/en/11.html), and elesh (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/9.html), also, moat (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/197.html), Solitary Confinement (http://magiccards.info/query?q=confinement&v=card&s=cname), and so on, you get the picture:

Obviously, vs reanimator, the key should be to either beat them in speed (hard) or just drop the match up on the first game, and go for the sideboard, and usually emrakul should solve the others problem post side.... yet, isn't there any other option?


This is my current list:

Mana Dork (16)
4 Llanowar elves
4 heritage druid
4 priest of titania
4 elvish archdruid

Untapers (7)
4 Wirewood symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger

Toolbox (7)
1 Viridian Sciaman
4 Joraga Warcaller
2 Concordant Crossroads

Draw&search (12)
4 Green sun's zenith
4 Glimpse of nature
4 Elvish Visionary

Lands (17)
10 Forest
1 Dryad arbor
2 Verdant catacomb
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Gaea's Cradle

For 59 cards:

I usually run 61 cards, but I do not know what to add to solve alleviate those problem maindeck, nor in sideboard:

I thought about running:

Ezuri + Elvish champion, going the classic aggro route, but they do not help vs said cards.

Or Fierce Empath (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/155.html)+ either Emrakul or Ulamog (http://magiccards.info/fvl/en/14.html)

But I am not too sure about those either, it seems Ulamog could deal better with those cards... yet both are somehow slow.
Is that empath strategy any good in your opinion guys?
I can say it works by itself, I am not sure if it's worthy though.


For the sideboard I currently have:

4 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Thorn of amethyst
1 Duplicant (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arc/106.jpg)
1 Emrakul (if not in main deck)

And then I would have something to deal with mass removal:
I tryed Caller of the claw but it wasn't so helpfull, any other idea?

[Infinitium]

If you want removal MD your best bet is probably Living Wish into either Masticore or Rath's Edge (if you're super paranoid about having your wish target countered). Gilt-Leaf Archdruid MD is also an option if you don't mind 5cc cards and want a way to deal with Peacekeeper (as the opponent cannot pay the upkeep without Lands). Emrakul deals with the Enchantments you mentioned (also best played with Living Wish since dead cards MD without Survival is pretty much a no-go).

Elesh/Archon are better dealt with using Graveyard hate (Show&Tell decks are proabably a lost cause either way). I dislike Empath since it's a Grey Ogre at anything less than 7+ mana, and at that point pretty much any tutor usually wins you the game anyway.

[igri_is_a_bk]

What about Beast Within in the board? A single 3/3 is not going to break the lines of Elves and it solves everything. Well, everything not pro-green or shroud or hexproof.

[Infinitium]

It's not bad, but the only permanents that you care about are the ones that directly keep you from winning, and between Krosan Grip and Emrakul that only leaves Peacekeeper and some assorted Reanimator critters that BW exclusively targets. I currently run 1x Emrakul, 3x Krosan Grip along with 1 Rath's Edge and 4 Faerie Macabre to deal with all of the above, but if you're desperate for SB space I guess BW could save a spot or two in that configuration.

[GrimLavamancer]

so do you now run a living wish build infinitium?

[Infinitium]

Nah. I run 1x Viridian Shaman and Scavenging Ooze MD to be fetched with GSZ and apart from that just don't care enough what my opponent is doing to bother with additional targeted hate. Wish isn't a bad card, and the sideboard spots it takes are largely a non-issue but it is slow and the obvious flex spots it competes for in my current build (aforementioned Shaman/Ooze) are incidentally the most applicable silver bullets in the majority of matchups. Going from 5 virtual copies of those MD to 2-3 for an extra mana hurts, even if you get extra Emrakul, Cradle and removal (none of which are strictly needed but sometimes convenient) MD in the bargain.

Bottom line is Wish is good, GSZ is better and it's hard to fit both unless you're willing to drop your GSZ bullets MD (postboard this is less of a problem since you can then just side out your Wishes for whatever targets you want in that particular matchup and use GSZ to get them).