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GoboLord
02-08-2011, 02:42 PM
Deckprimer Vial-Goblins

0. Update notes

August 16th 2016
* updated chapter IV. Matchups and Strategy, adding Carpet of Flowers as relevant SB card in Tempo matchups
* updated chapter V. Outside the Box, refreshing the list of already tested cards and To-be-tested cards

August 15th 2016
* updated the tournament report section
* added Jim Davis' podcast to "Literature"

March 28th 2016
* reworked the chapter about "IV. Matchupd & Sideboarding"
* removed the description of the "Thalia" list
* updated the tournament report section
* killed some typos and weird choice of words

August 26th 2015
* tournament reports are up-to-date now

May 31st 2015
* tournament reports are up-to-date now
* removed 'UR Delver' from the matchup chapter

November 3rd 2014
* updated the tournament report section
* reserved space for "URx Treasure Cruise Delver" in the Matchups and Sideboarding section

June 17th 2014
Re-structured the opening post. It should now be easier to read. I also wrote a whole new paragraph about the three subarchetypes of Goblins and added a lot of pictures.

February 24th 2014
* updated the tournament report section

February 6th 2014
* updated the tournament report section
* minor changes to the ""To-be-tested" card list

November 13th 2013
* updated the tournament report section
* changed the layout and position of the update notes
* added cronos' testing results to the "Literature/Good Reads"

I borrowed several ideas for the structure of the primer from Bryant cook’s deckprimer about The Epic Storm (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T.E.S.-The-EPIC-Storm).
Thank you to everyone who is visting this thread on a regular basis. Your constructive comments and the positive atmosphere make the thread what it is today.

I. Introduction
a) History
b) Strategy
c) Why should I play Goblins?
II. Maindeck
a) Mana
b) The Core
c) Staples
III. The two faces of Vial-Goblins
a) The CLASSIC goblindeck
b) The WINSTIGATOR list
IV. Matchups & strategy
V. Outside the Box
a) Already tested, bad cardchoices
b) To-be-tested cards
VI. Literature
a) Tournament Reports
b) Good Reads


I. Introduction

a) History
Here is a brief outline of the deck’s development.
Vial Goblins exists since the very beginning of the format Legacy. It came to life with the printing of Goblin Warchief, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Sharpshooter and Gempalm Incinerator – all of which were included in the Onslaught block. Later, Aether Vial was released which made the deck one of the most dominant decks in the format. The deck gradually lost it’s dominant position with the power-creep that creatures since the Ravnica-block are experiencing. In 2011 with the release of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull the deck was once again said to be “dead”. Goblins faced the problem that any creature-based strategy was more efficient: while Goblins always relied on their synergistic abilities to spam high CMC creatures like Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander, other creature-based strategies were able to just play with any combination of cards that were strong in their own rights while having very low mana-costs.
However, people didn’t lose interest in Goblins. Less than one year later (spring of 2012) some players were coming up with innovative decklists and strategies to compete in the meta. Then, in May 2012 we were blessed with the printing of Cavern of Souls which initiated a comeback for Vial Goblins.

b) Strategy
So what do Goblins do? Goblins have two major strategies: (1) beating our opponents as fast as possible and (2) grinding out games to win in late game via card- (and board-) advantage. The first strategy is made possible by a combination of Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, and Goblin Piledriver, while the latter strategy makes use of the huge card-advantage which the deck can create with cards like Goblin Matron, Ringleader and Mogg War Marshal. Which strategy to use is highly dependent from the matchup (MU) and the meta – oftentimes you will find yourself using a mixture of both roles even in the same game.

c) Why should I play Goblins?
Most of all, you should play goblins when you are looking for a deck that can beat control decks on a regular basis. In this sense Vial Goblins is a meta deck. You will realize that there are goblin-friendly metas and goblin-hostile metas. Goblins rewards knowledge of the metagame because the deck has a relatively large number of playable cards in the MD as well as in the SB that you can or cannot use to tune your deck for the metagame you are expecting. Goblins is also a deck with many faces: there is not ONE, but at least TWO “stock-lists” all of which have a different strategy and perform differently against the field. This makes it hard for your opponents to get a good grasp on the deck. Next, Goblins is a very old deck and many newer players won’t know how to play against it. You should also play Goblins when you are looking for a deck that does not punish you badly when you aren’t playing 100% correct. That is not to say that the deck is so strong that it will beat many decks while your brain is on ‘standby-mode’. Rather this means that its skillcap is not very high and its decision trees are less complex than with other decks. While skill is not a big issue during games, it definitely is an issue for deckbuilding. As I said, there are plenty of ‘playable’ cards, but it is essential that your cardchoices really fit the metagame requirements. This will come back at you when you have to decide whether to play, let’s say, Goblin Chieftain or Goblin Warchief. The devil is in the details. So, you should also play Goblins if you are willing to invest some time in working out the details of the deck (the first step has been set once you fought yourself through this deckprimer).

II. The Maindeck

a) Mana
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/tp/340.jpg
Let’s talk about mana first. Goblins is a very mana-hungry deck which needs to be provided with lands in the first three turns to ensure a fast and solid start. The high manacosts of cards like Ringleader and manaconsuming abilities like those of Rishadan Port “force” us to play a number of lands: 22-24. (Note that successful attempts have been made to run 20 or 21 mana-sources. However those cases are rare and usually only run smoothly in well balanced decklists. So for starters I’d advice to run 23 lands).
Mana-denial is an important part of Goblins’ gameplan. This is why a playset of Wastelands + X Rishadan Ports find their way into most Goblin-lists. Apart from purely shutting our opponents off a single color, manadenial lands can be used to deal with problematic cards like:
* so-called ‘manlands’: Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault and Creeping Tar Pit
* Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
* Grove of the Burnwillows (in combo with Punishing Fire)
Cavern of Souls is an auto-include in every Goblin-decklist. The default number if 4 copies.
As far as splash colors are concerned, success has been reported with EVERY additional color. Given the limited space, there is usually room for only 1-3 duallands to support your splashcolor. Also, don’t hesitate to play a mono red deck. Approximately 95% of the deck is red, even in multicolored lists. Playing Mono Red is not a question of low budget. By default you should build your deck mono-red. Only if you need certain cards (mostly SB cards) that are not red or colorless, you can think about splashing colors.
Other prominent utility lands in Goblins are Pendelhaven[/cards (which protects Lackey from Punishing Firean pumps it to get past early blockers like Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets) and Karakas (which protects your own legenadaries like Krenko and Kiki-Jiki; and bounces legendaries comonly played in Legacy, like Iona and Griselbrand).

b) The Core

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ds/91.jpg
Vial is one of the reasons why such a fast aggro deck can approve such high-CMC-creatures as Matron and Ringleader. Oftentimes Vial is ticked up every round, whereas one should carefully consider adding more than three counters.
Did you know that?
Vial has an upkeep-trigger that reads “you may put a charge counter on Aether Vial”. Therefore one should announce the trigger in each and every upkeep (you will NEVER forget that after a while) and then carefully think whether to add another counter or not. E.g.: It’s our mainphase and we control Vial with 2 counters on it (@2) – we have a Mogg War Marshal, Piledriver and Ringleader on our hand and we want to cheat all of them through our opponent’s counterspells. Actually we must leave Vial @ 2 for two rounds to do that. At the end of our opponent’s turn we tap Vial to bring in Piledriver. In our next upkeep we announce the may-trigger and tap Vial in response to bring in MWM – after that, Vial’s trigger resolves and we add another counter. So, in our next upkeep we can decide to bring in any cc3 Goblin or the Ringleader that is waiting on our hand.



http://magiccards.info/scans/en/us/190.jpg
Caverns, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page306). On the other hand he does very often not “connect” because opponents will try everything to throw removal, counter or Stifle at him. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because the creature in question could be removed to make sure that Lackey get’s the party started.
Did you know that?
Lackey’s oracle-text reads that he can bring in goblin-permanents, whereas Warren Instigator can only bring in goblin-creatures. This fact is often irrelevant because most goblin-permanents have legs anyways. Also there is a nice interaction with Rakdos Charm that doesn't work for Warren Instigator.



http://magiccards.info/scans/en/us/191.jpg
Goblin Matron, along with Goblin Ringleader, is the backbone of the deck. Most often you will fetch a Goblin Ringleader with her ability, but you can also choose any other goblin, depending on what is needed at the moment she enters the battlefield. E.g. fetch Goblin Chieftain to counter Engineered Plague, or Tuktuk Scrapper to destroy that pesky equipment.
Did you know that?
…a foil Goblin Matron is only available in the 7th Edition and costs a whole lot of money.
It’s also good to know that Goblin Matron’s triggered ability is obligatory. That means that (1) if you forget to fetch a creature and move on to the next step of the turn, your opponent can be a dick and not allow you to still fetch a creature afterwards. That’s not the case with triggers that must be resolved, i.e. such abilities without the word “may”. (2) When Matron is the only card in your hand and you have a Vial @3 and your opponent plays a discard spell, like Thoughtseize, you can put Matron into play without having to look for something to put into your hand. Also, you can search your library and declare NOT TO FIND ANYTHING, in case you want to shuffle your library.



http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ap/62.jpg
Sometimes this guy just reads “draw 4 cards”. Ringleader has an immediate impact on the game by potentially creating huge card advantage. At the very least he will replace himself (that is: you invest one card to get one card in return), but most of the time he creates raw card advantage. This card advantage ultimately leads to board advantage (most cards you reveal are creature cards), which means that you are winning the game. It is also important to play as many goblins as possible (34 goblins is the maximum number with 22 lands and 4 Aether Vials) in your maindeck to make the best card of the deck even better.
Did you know that?
Ringleader never lets you down. Have you ever revealed 4 lands in a row? Yes, almost certainly. Have you ever been disappointed about this fact? You shouldn’t! Everytime Ringleader reveals 0 Goblin cards, ask yourself how the game would have turned out if you had drawn those cards for the next 4 turns! However he usually should reveal 3 Goblin cards, with 4 and 2 cards lying within standards, while 0 or 1 is highly unlikely.



Okay, let’s take a short break here and see what we have so far.


4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
14 other lands

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

22 other cards
How you fill the remaining 14 land-slots and which set of spells you choose for the MD is dependent from the metagame you are playing in. In other words: these slots are very flexible. What follows now is an explanation of proven subtypes of Goblin decks as well as a list of playable and un-playable cards.

c) Staples
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/sc/97.jpg
Hastey goblins are happy goblins. Both, Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, make the deck more explosive and much harder to deal with. Players usually spend 4-7 slots on 'hastelords' Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, whereas Goblin Warchief is the more popular choice. I personally favor Goblin Cieftain, because the additional power it adds to the boar will not only let you deal more unblocked damage, but it will also make you trade less resources in combat situations.
Suggested reading about Warchief and Chieftain: here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=712777&viewfull=1#post712777).
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Mad Auntie, Goblin Wardriver, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Lookout



http://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/205.jpg
Piledriver is a common choice for the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponents lifepoints, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way. Piledriver supports aggressive strategies and makes the deck more explosive. His triggered ability checks the number of Goblins on resolution. This has two implications: (1) Stifle turn an attacking PD into a Squire and (2) your opponent can destroy (or remove) goblins in response to the triggered ability and still weaken your PD. People usually run 2-4 copies of Piledriver in their decklists, for starters 4 should be the default option. I am in favor of 4 copies as well, as long as you are not expecting to face a ridicoulous amount of non-blue creatures.



http://magiccards.info/scans/en/le/94.jpg
Gempalm Incinerator is the most common spotremoval of choice in Goblin lists and usually a 4-off. It trades 0 for 1 (in the worst case 0:0) with other creatures, can’t be counterered by ordinary countermagic, and even has a body to block/attack with. One should carefully count all Goblins in play (even Mutavault is a Goblin once in a while) and take opponent’s removal into account (which can decrease the number of Goblins in play while Gempalm’s ability is on the stack) before using cycling. Cycling is an activated ability that can be used at instant-speed. This means that, since it is an ability, not a spell, Force of Will and Daze won’t work on Cycling. Cards with cycling usually have an additional triggered ability printed on it, that triggers when you cycle the card (which is the case with thishere card).
The problem with Gempalm Incinerator is, that you need a decent board position to effectively kill a targeted creature. In some MUs it is hardly possible to develop such a board position which means that you sometimes need removal spells that are dealing damage more reliably. Tarfire is an alternative for such situations (e.g. when most of the creatures in your metagame are power 2 or less and are to be dealt with immediately and reliably).
By default you should play 3 copies of Gempalm Incinerator.
Suggested reading about Lightning Bolt (and Tarfire for that matter), click here (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/5-tricky-legacy-interactions/).
Cards you should NOT run instead: Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mogg Fanatic

Goblin Sharpshooter is another common choice for Goblin decks. Sharpshooter helps in the mirror-match, against hordes of Elves and counters a lot of strategies that rely on x/1 creatures (oftentimes tokens), such as Thopter Foundry, Empty the Warrens, Elspeth, Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls. He also has interactions with SGC, Stingscourger and Mogg War Marshal. A card typically found alongside with Sharpshooter is Skirk Prospector (also as a 1-off). Although Goblin Sharpshooter is typically played 1-off, it is way more effective when playied in multiples of 2 (or even 3 to 4) copies. The reason is that (1) your opponent will only expect to see one, so after he kills the first one he doesn't really have the resources, nor is he prepared to deal with a second one. (2) Second, with multiple Sharpshooters you will be more likely to draw him naturally rather than spending a Matron-trigger to find one. It is very inefficient to spend 6 mana on a creatures that your opponent can deal with right away. This is different when you fetch creatures like Ringleader who have an immediate impact at the moment they enter the battlefield.
Sparksmith is another, tap-for-damage-spell that you can use multiple times. The downsides are basically the same as with Gempalm Incinerator with the addition that your opponent will oftentimes see him coming. The fact that he eats your lifepoints has surprisingly little impact on the game, especially when you consider what you get in return.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Lightning Crafter




http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pc/107.jpg
Stingscourger is a typical 1-off (or silverbullet), which gives you the flexibility to bounce huge blockers and go for the alpha strike. He is also a popular choice in fields where SneakShow decks are around, since it effectively counters their Show and Tell. Even Emrakul, isn’t protected against this card, as the spagetthi monster will be sent back by an ability, not by a spell. Another nice thing about this ‘removal’ spell is that it usually circumvents countermagic with Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls (or Show and Tell).
If you want a card that actually handles large creatures permanently you are probably looking for Warren Weirding. It is only comparable to Stingscourger in that it is usually meant to handle the big guys, but other than that the cards are quite different in how you manage them during the game. That is Warren Weirding is usually not run instead of, but in addition to, Stingscourger.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin Tunneler


http://magiccards.info/scans/en/wwk/94.jpg
1-off artifact hate is commonly seen in Goblin-decklists. The most important reason is flexibility. Artifact hate in MD is basically never irrelevant because decks today are rarely artifact-free. The most prominent reason to run those so-called Shatter-Goblins is, of course, equipments. If your list is green, Tin Street Hooligan is an alternative to Tuktuk Scrapper
Suggested reading on Tin Street Hooligan and Tuktuk Scrapper: Hot Topics of Vial Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=712777&viewfull=1#post712777)
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal




http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m13/138.jpg
Goblins also play a number of cards that are supposed to end the game immediately (or at the very least ‘snowball’ pretty fast). For a very long time, Siege-Gang Commander (SGC) was the post popular choice for this. Besides bringing 4 bodies into play, SGC can also throw your Goblins over a Moat, or break boardstates that are otherwise stalled. Its activated ability is also useful to prevent equipments like Batterskull and Umezawa’s Jitte from triggering their abilities. Ever since the printing of Krenko, there is a discussion about which one is better, or if they are just differently used while being on approximately the same power level. And that is really something you have to find out yourself, as there is no straight answer to this issue yet. As a rule of thumb you can say that the more ‘haste-lords’ your deck has, the more likely it is that Krenko is better than SGC in your list. Another, very viable option is Kiki-Jiki which essentially gives you extra copies of the most essential Goblins in the deck: Matron and Ringleader, while he can also build up a critical boardposition with copies of Chieftain and Piledriver. And important ‘trick’ for Kiki-Jiki is to use his ability in your opponent’s turn after the “beginning of end step”. This way the copy will survive a whole turn, i.e. until your next endstep. The norm is to spare 2 slots on one or more of the creatures.
Cards you should NOT run instead: Wort, Boggart Auntie, Beetleback Chief, Boggart Mob, Goblin Pyromancer


III. The two faces of Vial-Goblins
In the long history of Goblins, twodecklists have been established. In the following section I will discuss them one by one and provide sample-decklists that are as close to the basic of the respective subtype as possible. That means: there is no recipe how to build these two arechtypes, neither is there a set-in-stone 60-cards-MD . The lists I present serve as examples to show the advantages and disadvantages of each subtype.

a) Face 1: The CLASSIC Goblin deck


10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls

16 Corecards (Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader)

4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshoorter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
At first we are looking at the lands. The deck is monored and uses the full number of mana-denial lands. This has two important advantages. First, it is hard, if not impossible, for your opponent to mana-screw this deck as you have 10-14 red manasources, 10 of which are unaffected by any land destruction played in legacy, including Back to Basics and Bood Moon. Second, the lists is very good at punishing greedy, multicolored manabases – which will sometimes give you free wins just by tapping your lands. Another important element is the choice to play a full playset of Gempalm Incinerator, which goes hand in hand with 4 Mogg War Marshal. Gempalm Incinerator is, provided you have enough Goblins in play, the best removal spell available. It is uncounterable, it draws a card, it occasionally can be a creature and most importantly it is a Goblin. So why not play the best removal spell as a 4-off? Mogg War Marshal makes it possible. Mogg War Marshal works in perfect harmony with your manadenial: tapping lands with Rishadan Port can mean a timewalk – but only when you keep your opponents creatures in check. MWM does exactly that. Together they support a grindy strategy that gets the deck where it wants to be: turn 5. From that point on your card-advantage engine in form of Matron and Ringleader takes over to quickly outperform your opponent on all fronts: the hand and the board. Siege-Gang Commander is just another testament to the fact that the lategame will be yours and that you want to play grindy games, preferably with Aether Vial on turn 1. Those four cards I separated from the rest of the deck are silverbullets for your Matron-gun. Since your are going for the mid-and lategame it is essential to have answers to a variety of (un-)expected situations. After all this is legacy, which means that unexpected things will happen. Going for mid and lategame also has a huge drawback: this list is cold to basically any kind of fast combo deck.

b) Face 2: The WInstigator list


11 Mountain
2 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Chrome Mox

16 Corecards

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Tarfire

2 Goblin Warchief
1 Subterranean Scout
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
The two most defining elements of this list are [cards]Chrome Mox and Warren Instigator. Chrome Mox is not only used as a tool to dish out Warren Instigator on turn 1 (which effectively gives you 8 Goblin Lackeys, and who wouldn’t want that?). It also enables Goblin Chieftain/Warchief on turn 2 and Ringleaders as early as turn 3. It is essential to know which card to put under a Chrome Mox, which can be a real challenge on turn 1 or 2, but less so when you cast it later on. The combination of Winstigator, Chieftain and Chrome Mox makes the deck much more explosive and aggressive than the CLASSIC version. In contrary to those lists, WInstigator lists do not try to grind out games, but catch people off guard that can’t handle early aggression in form of Winstigators. The full playset of Piledrivers is a must. Chieftain is played in favor of Warchief because the cost reducing ability is less relevant: your list in general has more double-red manacosts (which is also a reason to cut Rishadan Ports) and you have Chrome Mox which partly makes up for the manaboost you want to get out of Warchief. A downside is that Chrome Mox creates card disadvantage, which you should usually be able to make up for. But still, there will be games where your opponent’s discard spells and the card you imprint for Chrome Mox add up to a critical degree. Another remarkable feature of those lists is that Gempalm Incinerators are cut to 2, sometimes even down to 0 copies. This is because the list is more focused on pushing through early Lackeys/Winstigators, and this strategy is best supported by reliable removal. In a world where 75% of the field is playing either Deathrite Shaman, and/or Stoneforge Mystic and/or Delver of Secrets Tarfire is more reliable than Gempalm Incinerator. Pendelhaven has recently proven to be a good card for Winstigator-lists.


IV. Matchups & strategy (last update: 16/08/2016)

In this section I will present my view on a number of relevant MUs as well as some suggestions how to play them right. I will try to update this regularly, but please keep in mind the date when I last edited the list. Also, this is but one view that is presented here, so please feel free to test the MUs yourself and work out strategies that are different from what I am presenting here.
I am using the following five "ratings" for MUs.
(1) favorable: most iterations of Goblins will have good chances of winning against most iterations of the deck in question. Usually you don’t need to reserve any SB cards for this MU.
(2) slightly favorable: your chances of winning range from even to good, depending on your version of the deck as well as some SB cards
(3) even: generally chances are evenly distributed. Sometimes the outcome if this is MU decided by certain MD or SB cards that you or your opponent are playing. Also, skill and experience will be a relevant factor.
(4) slightly unfavorable: your list will need some specific tuning to win this MU. SB cards can turn the tides and drag the odds down to 50%. These MUs are usually what you need your SB cards for.
(5) unfavorable: most iterations of your opponents deck will have good chances of beating yours. In some cases you can dedicate a lot of SB cards to make this MU even, but sometimes it is better to accept that you can’t beat every deck.

Miracles – favorable
How the matchups works: You have everything that they don’t want to see: a fast clock, creatures that they can’t counter, cardadvantage. There are two ways they can beat you: (1) a well-timed Entreat the Angels and (2) Monastery Mentor getting out of reach before you can remove it. The longer the games the more favored they are – so try to make it quick. Your plan is to establish a boardposition that can deal a minimum of 4 damage a turn, while holding Matron or Ringleader in your hand. You will pressure your opponent to find a Terminus during your attack step and then refill your resources with Ringleader on the second mainphase of the same turn. Matron should usually find Ringleader. Make sure to not let it get countered. After G1 you want to keep as many creatures in our deck as possible. Ideally you keep one or two removal spells after G1.
Which version to pick: Both versions are equally well-equipped to beat Miracles. If you are playing the CLASSIC build, make sure not to overrate your Rishadan Ports but keep on casting creatures. When wielding the WINSTIGATOR list, make sure to resist temptation of overextending with Double-Strike triggers. Winstigator + Pendelhaven is a decent clock.
Cards that support this strategy: Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Chieftain
Meaningful SB cards: Earwig Squad, Pithing Needle

Storm Combo – unfavorable
How the matchups works: You can steal games by killing them on turn 3 or 4. However, your lack of disruptive elements usually makes you an easy target. When you evaluate your opening hands you should aim for a kill on turn 3 or 4. Every piece of hate should delay your opponent by at least 1 turn. If it doesn’t then don’t play it. Accept the idea of being killed on turn 1 or 2 without any interaction.
Which version to pick: Neither version will have good times here. WINSTIGATOR lists are better equipped here as they are more likely to pull off turn-3 kills. Also, Chrome Mox helps casting hatepieces one turn earlier than usual.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
Meaningful SB cards: Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy, Ethersworn Canonist, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thorn of Amethyst, Leyline of Sanctity

Eldrazi Stompy – slightly favorable
How the matchups works: In this MU your goal is to buy enough time until you can block their way with your hordes. Eldrazi Smasher and equipments stand in the way of that plan. Their major weakness is their manabase. Their best spells cost 4+ mana and demand colorless mana, so any form of manadisruption is effective. Try to read what cards they have in hand. You can read that from the amount of mana they have available and what cards they played last turn. Watch out for some interactions of their spells and lands. A few examples: Eye of Ugin doesn’t actually produce mana, but reduces the manacosts. So, no playing Jitte with Eye of Ugin. Make sure that they tap at least 1 colorless mana when casting their spells. Under a Bloodmoon they will usually not be able to cast any spell with <> in their manacosts. Over a course of several games you will be favored, as their manabase is shaky and their mulligan decisions are more difficult - their deck is less consistent than yours.
Which version to pick: The CLASSIC build really shines here as it is able to run 8 manadenial lands. The WINSTIGATOR build is better in MUs where you want to win the early game – and Eldrazi Stompy is none of them, since their early game is much better than ours.
Cards that support this strategy: Aether Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mogg War Marshal,
Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Tuktuk Scrapper

Shardless BUG – even
How the matchups works: unlike most other deck, this creature-based deck has a cardadvantage engine that is as powerful as ours. Shardless Agent revealing Tarmogoyf or Ancestral Visions can put you in a very uncomfortable position. Additionally, early DRS blocking the way for Goblin Lackey, and Abrupt Decay destroying Aether Vial can steal your tempo and mana advantage. Our strength on the other turn is their weakness to Krenko, Mob Boss as they have only 1 or two cards in their 75 that can actually get rid of it. Also, in the absence of Tarmogoyf and Ancestral visions their board is usually weak and we will have enough time to develop a favorable boardposition. One more thing that many people might not notice: Tuktuk Scrapper can usually destroy one of their creatures, since Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix both are artifacts.
Which version to pick: The CLASSIC version is in a better here, as Mogg War Marshal supports the above strategy better. Also, running Chrome Mox makes Hymn to Tourarch hurt you more and Liliana can become a problem as well when running Warren Instigator in the spot of Mogg War Marshal.
Cards that support this strategy: Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal, Aether Vial, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Gempalm Incinerator
Meaningful SB cards: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish

BUG Delver – even
How the matchups works: Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis will try to deal unblockable damage to your lifepoints while Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourarch and Liliana of the Veil will try to eat your resources so that you can’t handle their damage output. The rest of their deck is largely irrelevant as you can usually ignore their countermagic. Also their deck is light on removal spells so, unless you need to throw your creatures into a Tarmogoyf or Liliana, every creature that hits the board, stay on the board. Your plan is to create a large-enough cardadvantage, while killing Delver and Deathrite Shaman as early as possible. As with other tempo-decks, try to avoid unfavorable trades. On the long run your deck has a better stamina. At the same time you need to close out games fast enough, because their unblockable damage can stack up really fast and put your lifetotal in lethal range.
Which version to pick: The CLASSIC version should have easier times surviving the early game. Just don’t focus too much on using your manadenial, but make sure to get some value on the board. The WINSTIGATOR list will be better at closing out games and switching from the control role to beatdown mode. However, as with Shardless BUG, Hymn to Tourarch and Liliana hit you harder when playing with Chrome Mox.
Cards that support this strategy: Mogg War Marshal, Tarfire, Aether Vial, Goblin Piledriver, Krenko, Mob Boss
Meaningful SB cards: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Carpet of Flowers

Grixis Tempo – slightly favorable
How the matchups works: Very much like BUG Delver, this is another Tempo deck featuring the shell of Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets, Force of Will, Daze and 8 cantrips. The most problematic card in this MU is Young Pyromancer, which can take over games from one turn to the next. Save a removal spell for this guy and you will be fine. With this MU you will have somewhat easier time getting ahead in early game as their creatures are initially very weak. Also, in comparison to BUG, Grixis usually doesn’t play any Abrupt Decays, which means that your Vial will stick on the board. In earlygame it is totally legit to trade your Lackey for Delver of Young Pyromancer. After G1 you will bring in some Pyrokinesis and/or Sharpshooter to counter their most effective wincondition, while they exchange some of their countermagic for more removal spells and probably discard.
Which version to pick: Their deck operates well with a small amount of mana. In addition to that, grinding out games is not necessary. For these reasons the two major strength of the CLASSIC version don’t carry weight. The WINSTIGATOR list should be your version of choice, as it brings a very strong early game.
Cards that support this strategy: Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Tarfire, Gempalm Incinerator
Meaningful SB cards: Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter, Carpet of Flowers

Elves – slightly unfavorable
How the matchups works: In game 1 they are clearly favored. On the way of assembling one of their combokills they can block the board with a bunch of 1/1 creatures and gain value with untaps, mana-abilities and bouncing their own creatures (like Elvish Visionary). Their most effective enablers are Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote and Heritage Druid – so usually you should kill of these first. It is very rare that you can slowly build up an advantage that you can ride to victory. The MU comes down to whether or not you can wipe their board with clean with Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter or Perish, so your strategy should support finding one of these. Note that Chalice of the Void seems effective on first sight but in practice they will often be able to play around that.
Which version to pick: The WINSTIGATOR list is the better choice as it support your plan of finding (and casting) boardsweepers better. Also, with Warren Instigator you have a doublestrike-creature that can engage in combat situations more easily.
Cards that support this strategy: Chrome Mox, Warren Instigator
Meaningful SB cards: Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Perish, Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Grafdigger’s Cage

UG Infect – even
How the matchups works: Your priority in this MU is to destroy their infect-creatures. Use your removal in your turn to make them use their pump-spells to protect their creatures, rather than killing you. They can kill you with only 2 pumpspells, but most often they will have to use 3. Due to their lack of removal and the very small amount of countermagic they play, build up a threatening boardposition is relatively easy for you. Other than that, there is not much to watch out for. Make sure to play safe and steady – don’t get greedy or do anything risky. The MU is already quite shaky.
Which version to pick: WINSTIGATOR is better by a mile. The fact that they can’t interact with you building up a boardposition makes them an easy prey for Lackey and Warren Instigator. Plus, running Chrome Moxen comes at basically no cost, as the card-disadvantage will not carry any weight.
Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Tarfire, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourge
Meaningful SB cards: Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, Blood Moon

Death & Taxes – favorable
How the matchups works: The worst thing that can happen is that they have an equipment at a moment when you can’t deal with it yet. This would be the case when they have Stoneforge Mystic on turn 2 and you can’t kill SFM before the equipment comes down. Try to grind them out, make favorable trades (or even one-for-ones). We have a cardadvantage engine, while Death & Taxes is only able to generate CA via equipments. Other potentially problematic cards in their deck are Mother of Runes and Phyrexian Revoker (which shuts down a range of valuable cards).
Which version to pick: Both versions will do equally well. The WINSTIGATOR version has easier times going into profitable combat situations, while the CLASSIC list is better at grinding out games until you get keycards on the table.
Cards that support this strategy: Tarfire, Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal
Meaningful SB cards: Tuktuk Scrapper, Pithing Needle, Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis

RG Combo Lands – even
How the matchups works: It is relatively easy to keep them off their combo-kill with an untapped Wasteland. It takes them quite some effort and setup-time to still push it through your untapped Wasteland. Stingscourger is another valuable asset , which can save you even after Marit Lage hits the board. On the other hand they have very effective means of keeping from winning, including Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire, Maze of Ith and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Looking at all of this, your plan is to kill them as fast as possible, while having a Wasteland untapped. The longer the games lasts, the more likely they are to gain the upper hand. After G2 things don’t look so much different in their deck, but you will usually have a few cards to bring in.
Which version to pick: The WINSTIGATOR list is the better choice, as it supports the plan of setting up a fast kill. Chrome MOX has no drawbacks in MUs where speed is your strongest asset. In addition to that Pendelhaven (which is more common in Winstigator builds) will mess with their Punishing Fire.
Cards that support this strategy: Wasteland, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Stingscourger Pendelhaven.
Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Earwig Squad, Pithing Needle, Goblin Settler, Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace

Sneak Show – slightly favorable
How the matchups works: Get an Stingscourger or Goblin Matron on your hand as quickly as possible, as this will effectively shut down Show and Tell. The only card really left to care about is Sneak Attack. As with other combo decks, your plan is to kill they as fast as possible. Due to their lack of interaction with your setup (other than a little countermagic) you can usually go all-in. After Game 1 they will bring in some Pyroclasm and possibly Through the Breach (which work as additional copies of Sneak Attack). Your gameplan doesn’t change much though, only will you replace your spotremoval with some hatecards.
Which version to pick: I don’t have experience with fighting this deck with the traditional list, but I assume both versions are well equipped to win. WINSTIGATOR’s strength is to end the game in a timely fashion, while the classic list has additional manadenial to delay the mana-intense winconditions of Sneak Attack and Through the Breach.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Goblin Matron, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Rishadan Port, Wasteland
Meaningful SB cards: Pithing Needle, Goblin Settler, Cabal Therapy

[Reanimator/TinFins – unfavorable
How the matchups works: They can easily reanimate scary creatures on turn 2. Contrary to Stormdecks, their combo will not kill you on the same turn, but “only” make it very likely that they win. In game 1 you can get lucky and have Stingscourger in your opponing hand and they didn’t reanimate a creature that you can’t bounce (Iona#Red or Sphinx of the Steel Wind). However, this scenario will only buy you some time and doesn’t mean that you win. For G2 you can bring in some graveyard hate and/or combohate, while they won’t get any more dangerous than they already are.
Which version to pick: If anything you can expect that the WINSTIGATOR list is better for this MU, but neither version will have good chances of winning.
Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
Meaningful SB cards: any graveyard hate, Cabal Therapy, Chalice of the Void


V. Outside the Box
last update: 19/08/2016

This paragraph will focus on the future of the deck inasmuch that I hope to inspire people to test unconventional cardchoices and report their results.

a) Already tested, bad cardchoices
* Fecundity
* Goblin Guide
* Brightstone Ritual (better cardchoices: Mountain)
* Vexing Shusher
* Volrath's Stronghold (better cardchoices: Mountain)
* Mutavault (better cardchoices: Mountain)
* Ancient Tomb (better cardchoices: Mountain)
* Smoldering Spires (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
* Soaring Seacliff (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
* Basilisk Collar (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
* Boros Charm (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
* Deathrite Shaman (Reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=730630&viewfull=1#post730630))
* Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Intruder Alarm (in combination with Kiki-Jiki
(Reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=732700&viewfull=1#post732700))
* Mirror Entity
* Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
* Contested War Zone (better cardchoices: Mountain)
* Sensation Gorger
* Summoning Trap (outdated due to Cavern of Souls)
* Battle Squadron (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
* Fodder Launch (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
* Murderous Redcap (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
* Shrieking Mogg (better cardchoices: Subterranean Scout)
* Cover of Darkness (outdated due to Deathrite Shaman)
* Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience (outdated)
* Root Maze (better cardchoices: Thalia Heretic Cathar)

b) To-be-tested cards:
* Caller of the Claw
* Tuktuk the Explorer
* Bloodmark Mentor
* Taurean Mauler
* Chaos Warp
* Gaea's Cradle
* Gemstone Carvern

VI. Literature

a) Tournament Reports

2015
August, GoblinSettler 3-1 with Rg WINSTIATOR Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=896661&viewfull=1#post896661)
August, jrw1985 2-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=897715&viewfull=1#post897715)
August, Meddling_Mage 5-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=897908&viewfull=1#post897908)
September, Raznaak 3-0-1 with Rwg Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=901907&viewfull=1#post901907)
September, jrw1985 4-0 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=902396&viewfull=1#post902396)
September, GoblinTurkey 3-0 with Rw Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=904847&viewfull=1#post904847)
September, jrw1985 6-0-1 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=904849&viewfull=1#post904849)
September, GoboLord 5-1 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=905201&viewfull=1#post905201)
October, jrw1985 3-1 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=907446&viewfull=1#post907446)
October, Raznaak 1-4 with Rwg Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=907696&viewfull=1#post907696)
October, B-rad 6-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=908457&viewfull=1#post908457)
October, goblinpiledriver 1-3 with Rwgb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=908972&viewfull=1#post908972)
October, OlegtheSupter 6-2 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=909128&viewfull=1#post909128)
October, Sandro95 5-2-1 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=910173&viewfull=1#post910173)
October, btraut 5-0 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=910373&viewfull=1#post910373)
October, GoboLord 2-4 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=910819&viewfull=1#post910819)
November, Raznaak 3-1 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=916358&viewfull=1#post916358)
November, jrw1985 4-1-2 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=916507&viewfull=1#post916507)
November, GoblinTurkey 3-1 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=917676&viewfull=1#post917676)
November, GoboLord 3-4 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=918894&viewfull=1#post918894)
November, GoboLord 4-1 with Rb Goblins Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=918894&viewfull=1#post918894)
November, GoblinTurkey 3-4 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=919052&viewfull=1#post919052)
December, MattPruner 3-4 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=919155&viewfull=1#post919155)
December, jrw1985 0-2 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=919878&viewfull=1#post919878)
December, B-rad 5-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=924378&viewfull=1#post924378)

2016
January, Sandro95 0-2 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=925342&viewfull=1#post925342)
January, Zombiesquisher 4-0 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=925449&viewfull=1#post925449)
January, Dan Pyre 6-1-1 with Mono R Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=927887&viewfull=1#post927887)
January, GoboLord 4-2 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=928534&viewfull=1#post928534)
January, Diotram 5-2-1 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=928817&viewfull=1#post928817)
February, mrblueduck 7-1-1 with Rb Goblins Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=930805&viewfull=1#post930805)
February, GoboLord 4-2 with Rb Goblins Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=933165&viewfull=1#post933165)
February, Sandro95 4-0 with Rb Goblins Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=933739&viewfull=1#post933739)
February, MattPruner 4-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=934477&viewfull=1#post934477)
February, LeoCop 90 2-3 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=934969&viewfull=1#post934969)
March, Sandro95 3-1 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=937649&viewfull=1#post937649)
March, Sandro95 2-3 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=939633&viewfull=1#post939633)
March, MattPruner 3-0 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=939959&viewfull=1#post939959)
March, GoboLord 4-1-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=942159&viewfull=1#post942159)
April, Goblin Turkey 3-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=944011&viewfull=1#post944011)
April, GoboLord 4-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=944177&viewfull=1#post944177)
April, MattPruner 5-1 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=947203&viewfull=1#post947203)
May, Sandro95 4-0 with Rb Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=948198&viewfull=1#post948198)
May, GoboLord 6-1-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=949378&viewfull=1#post949378)
May, Olaf Forkbeard 8-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/4jng4q/indianapolis_scg_legacy_classic_3rd_on_goblins/)
May, B-rad 5-3 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=949841&viewfull=1#post949841)
May, jrw1985 4-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=951964&viewfull=1#post951964)
June, ScatmanX 10-4-1 (Day 2 at GP Prague) with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=954510&viewfull=1#post954510)
June, Chatto 2-4 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=955342&viewfull=1#post955342)
June, GoboLord 5-4 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=955982&viewfull=1#post955982)
June, GoboLord 3-0-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=955982&viewfull=1#post955982)
July, Zombiesquisher 3-1 with Rg CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=959849&viewfull=1#post959849)
July, Olaf Forkbeard 5-2 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=960059&viewfull=1#post960059)




VIDEOs

Sandro95 @ Scandinavian Legacy Open Febuary 22nd 2015
* Quarterfinals vs. Patriot Delver (2-0) (http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv/b/628252071?t=5h46m10s)
* Semifinals vs. Grixis OmniShow (2-0) (http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv/b/628252071?t=5h7m45s)
* Finals vs. BUG Foodchain (0-2) (http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv/b/628252071?t=7h1m15s)

Podcast with Jim Davis on Goblins
* Legacy's Allure - Ep. 12, Goblins with Jim Davis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbnisCh7pI)


b) Good Reads
* 5 tricky Legacy interactions (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/5-tricky-legacy-interactions/)
* Painting the Town REB (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21311_City_of_Brass_Painting_the_Town_REB.html)
* The performance of the "Average Decklist" (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=668095&viewfull=1#post668095) by jrw1985
* Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=710310&viewfull=1#post710310) by GoboLord
* Hot Topics of Vial Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=712777&viewfull=1#post712777) by GoboLord
* Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=721502&viewfull=1#post721502), by GoboLord
* Analysis of successful goblin decklists, final part (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=739155&viewfull=1#post739155), by GoboLord
* Goblins Are Great But Haters Gonna Hate (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26662_Leaving-A-Legacy-Goblins-Are-Great-But-Haters-Gonna-Hate.html), by Kenny Dungar
* No One Survives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsMKOx6fumc), by Necorgoblikon
* Testing results (updated on a regular basis) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=751262&viewfull=1#post751262) by cronos
* "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/judge-more-tricky-legacy-interactions/)
* "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions Part 3 (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/judge-5-tricky-legacy-interactions-part-3/)


Thank you for reading my primer,

GoboLord

ScatmanX
02-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Nice work! I knew you'd end up doing a primer sooner or later!
Thanks


[SIZE="5"]
[b]Untested cards
* Ratchet Bomb
* Sensation Gorger
* Mad Auntie
* Summoning Trap
I tested:
Ratchet Bombs, and they're not bad, but are just slow as hell. If someone wants to play them, need to play a 4off, otherwise it'll be just a bad topdeck.
Mad Auntie, and it is a really good card, but depends heavely on the build. If you want to play it, 2-3 would be the number. It gives you "infinite" blockers, and you don't have to worry about losing your Piledriver when attacking.
Summoning Trap, but only in a Food Chain build. Here it would be fun, but our sideboard is thit as it is already. It's awesome against Stax/Stompy (and Chalice of the Void) -> don't know if works though.

You can include Slavering Nulls on the bad cards. It just not as good as any 2 drop we have acess to...

Doomsday
02-08-2011, 05:03 PM
Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.


Earwig Squad is so far the only Goblin-shaped combohate. If he hits Tendrils-stormcombo decks he wins us the game one-handedly (most deck don’t run more than 3 combo-enablers). The drawback is obviously his relatively “high” cost, therefore he shouldn’t be the only hate we have.


EDIT: Unless you're talking combo engines, in which case they still have Ad Nauseam and 4 Burning Wish, many also have IGG. It shouldn't ever single-handedly win the game.

bakofried
02-08-2011, 05:15 PM
Very nice. Thanks Gobolord (and FoulQ, and ScatmanX). This has been a long time in coming.

ScatmanX
02-08-2011, 05:36 PM
Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.
Ari Lax took top 16 last SCG open with AdNausem Tendrils last weekend, with only 1 Tendrils for kill, 0 Wishes.
I agree that Squad is way weaker against TES, but the deal is that it is still good against other archetypes, while being playable against TES too.

TheSleeper
02-08-2011, 07:51 PM
Love the new primer and like the push for the new structure of decklists. Can a mod kill/archive the old thread and then rename this one without the 2.0? It makes it sound like its a new Goblins deck when really its just a new primer.

Caspid
02-08-2011, 11:37 PM
As a new player to Legacy/Goblins, this guide was very helpful. Since my last post got deleted for some reason, I'll say thanks again for all the good work.

Thoughts (for anyone to answer):

I like the new way of presenting decks as long as people agree on the core, which is pretty well-established (except for maybe the # of SGC). However, instead of doing math, maybe one could just post the new number if there are any changes, and the rest are assumed at 4 (or 2 in SGC's case)?
eg:
//Core [24]:
3 Piledriver
3 SGC
...

Either way accomplishes the same thing, I just think it saves a step and makes listing/reading/comparisons even easier and more immediately understandable. I also would advocate ellipses at the end just for clarity.



Is there ever a reason to run <4 Warchiefs?

Is Chieftain mainly defensive as an answer to plague/clasm/spout/etc, or does he also have offensive utility significant enough for inclusion of 1-3? In other words, how does his usefulness vary when playing aggro vs playing control?

tiny errors:
[b]jrw1985[/i]
Phyrexian Dreadnought[cards]
[cards]Earwig Squad

Auntie's Hovel vs Blood Crypt: Crypt is fetchable (sounds like a bad idea to me?), but Hovel is almost always free when you need her. Why is BC considered better?

Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?

oh, I just realized the page numbers depend on your forum settings. That's why links in my email/the primer weren't working... silly me.

lastly, perhaps a couple sample decklists, and matchup analyses/boarding suggestions?

Thanks again for this.

raindrainxi
02-09-2011, 05:25 AM
i agree with Caspid above, a couple of sample deck lists should be presented. This can be the ones that finished first on the Legacy open last month.

This can also serve as an 'ego-boost' for returning old gob players and an encouragement to new ones, that goblins is still damn relevant in the scene.

Fatal
02-09-2011, 06:34 AM
I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.

ScatmanX
02-09-2011, 07:20 AM
Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?
I don't think we can do that right now. No one even tested him.
When Mogg Warmarchall first came off, tons of people told it was bad. Now almost everyone plays him.
There are also cards that only a couple of people play, like Frogtosser Banneret, but they have had good results with it (like Media12345).
So I think it's a little early to say set it in stone.


I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.
Settler just look bad in so many way. If you could exemplify situations where you think it could be good by himself... but I doubt it could.

Pneumatiker
02-09-2011, 08:00 AM
... (reading before posting improvements is tech)

Nidd
02-09-2011, 08:37 AM
Nice read.

I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.

(nameless one)
02-09-2011, 09:57 AM
Nice read.

I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.

What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?

Nidd
02-09-2011, 10:09 AM
What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
I really don't know. Gorger has a backbreaking effect - when you untap wih him and flip a Goblin (which would happen in >50% of the times), your opponent will suddenly see his hand taken away from him and he gets handed 4 new cards - if he is a Control deck, he will likely have lost 1-2 cards and might have lost a bomb he had on his hand. If he's Aggro, you don't have to use the ability.
Maybe one could use him instead of Chieftain, but their applications are quite different and I don' think comparing them is worth it.

GoboLord
02-09-2011, 10:33 AM
What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?

I think the most attractive thing about him ist that you can decide twice during his effect: First wether to look at the top card or not and then wether to reveal it or not.
With the information about the top card you can make good decisions on paying Echocosts, ticking up your vial, using Volrath's Stronghold in upkeep, using a fetchland or not...
You don't have to use it's effect all the time and that's excatly what makes him threatening for you opponent: he never knows how or IF to prepare for him.
A nice trick would also be to bounce a creature via Stingscourger EOT and then let your opp discard his hand at the next upkeep.

jrw1985
02-09-2011, 01:07 PM
Sensation Gorger is pretty awesome in that with him in play you are basically drawing 5 cards a turn (4 from him, and 1 in your Draw step). Unfortunately he's also pretty expensive at 3cc, he doesn't contribute much on offense, has a pretty small butt so he's very burnable, his ability doesn't always work (I'm not adding Top for him), and he needs to be in play at the beginning of your upkeep, so he's pretty slow too. But the worst part is that he lets your opponent draw 4 new cards which greatly increases their chances of drawing their E Plague or Moat or that Propaganda they boarded in. Also, considering so much of Goblins' game is mana denial it seems that letting your opponent draw extra lands messes up your own strategy. Bottom line - Goblins has enough ways to draw cards without letting our opponent do the same. We don't need Sensation Gorger.

Avatara
02-09-2011, 08:02 PM
I think you might wanna add: Bloodmark Mentor. I think that he was already discussed in the old threat. He's a pretty good tutor target vs Merfolk and Elves (and maybe even the mirror).

While we are brainstorming about Sensation Gorger... he has pretty neat synergy with Countryside Crusher.

Humphrey
02-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Good job and thank to the new primer :)
But small critics ^^
-Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
-The explanaition of WarrenWeirding is a little bit to negative imo, maybe you add the biggest pro. (kills emrakul, progenitus Iona and other tough creatures)
-I found PlanarVoid always a good gh sb option for b splash. It completely shuts down every graveyard interaction, including goyf, its fast and can quickly be recast if bounced. Maybe you add that card :)
-maybe some links to some of the card discussions we had, especially the whole combo sb stuff
-no word about kikijiki vs sgc'? ^^
-some iconic picture at the heading would pimp the primer :D
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/ONS/Goblin_Piledriver.jpg

Neuad
02-09-2011, 11:28 PM
-Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.


My RB Goblins list


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [ON] Mountain (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
SB: 3 [US] Meltdown


SB is in flux at all times, depending on the meta I'm playing at. Also about to attempt a s green splash to deal with enchantments in my local meta, since no major tourneys are coming up. I'll post my 3 color list after this weekend when we brainstorm it.

Humphrey
02-10-2011, 12:31 AM
Id put winning lists in the primer, but tanks for sharing ;)

but..

well its kind of a new/old discussion, but i actually dont see any benefits for rb atm

the only black card the deck usually runs is weirdings which got cut down to 2 or even 1 (stingscourger fits the same role often)
than it has very few sb slots that are superior to non splashes (perish vs kinesis and black gyhate vs artifacts)

that is paid with lifeloss (fetches) and a weaker manabase (stifles/wastelands, pop)

green has at least the always useful disenchateffect

but really, id run monoR atm, even if it hurts me alot, cuz i got my rb pimped out


my standard red build.gobbo


// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
2 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [V10] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void

GoboLord
02-10-2011, 04:55 AM
Good job and thank to the new primer :)
But small critics ^^
-Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
-The explanaition of WarrenWeirding is a little bit to negative imo, maybe you add the biggest pro. (kills emrakul, progenitus Iona and other tough creatures)
-I found PlanarVoid always a good gh sb option for b splash. It completely shuts down every graveyard interaction, including goyf, its fast and can quickly be recast if bounced. Maybe you add that card :)
-maybe some links to some of the card discussions we had, especially the whole combo sb stuff
-no word about kikijiki vs sgc'? ^^
-some iconic picture at the heading would pimp the primer :D
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/ONS/Goblin_Piledriver.jpg

* Alright, I'll look for sample decklists. I'll pick the Rb and the Rg lists that won the first and the 2nd SCG Open this year. I havn't seen a Mono R list with good results for a while - does anyone mind if I take my list with which I top8'ed at the Dutch Nationals late in 2010?
* I don't find the explanation of WW too negative. As you already said: Stinger does the same thing and he is R.
* added Planar Void
* sure I can add a link to old discussion about Chalice vs. Thorn vs. Mindbreak Trap, but I think I named the most important points that people made. Still, it makes sense to add a link. I'll add one when I find the page where the discussion started.
* Well, There isn't much to be said about SGC vs. Kiki-Jiki. Half of us find KJ win-more and the other half won't leave home without him - eitherway: that's whyI posted the link to the discussion about KJ.
* Yeah, a picture would be good. How do you guys like this (http://mtglegacy.de/showthread.php?tid=50) one?

@ Avatara: I add Bloodmark Mentor to the untested cards, because I didn't see him for a while and I don't know what's the general consensus about him.

egosum
02-10-2011, 08:09 AM
I m not an aggro player, and less a goblin player, but do you know what? I think your primer is extremely accurate and well done. My most sincere congratulations for it.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Snief
02-10-2011, 08:14 AM
I have to second that...I never play goblins, but this is the most outstanding and complete primer I´ve seen.

PS: I don´t like the "We are one family" picture.

Pinoy Goblin
02-10-2011, 09:40 AM
Here's my Mono R list:

//Lands [22-24]
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountains

//Core [26]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Others [10-12]:
4 Gempahalm Incinerator
3 Mogwar Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuk Tuk Scraper

SB:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 REB
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Mogwar Marshal
1 Goblin Chiftain
2 Thorn of Amethyst

We will be having a major tournament on the 27th, I will post tourney results/reports with my Mono R list after the event. I had some success with it last December finished 21st out of 140 plus players with a 4-2-1 record.

Pinoy Goblin
02-10-2011, 01:08 PM
Nice primer sir gobolord! I give props to you :smile: Very informative and detailed. May I suggest that we fellow goblin players here help to contribute some info's and facts regarding matchups and SB's for each deck we face, its strenghts and weaknesses for us to have a complete detailed primer because for surely it would help us all. Tnks :tongue:

continuation Sample:

6. Matchups

6.1 The Good
a.
b.
c.

6.2 The Bad
a.
b.
c.

6.3 The Ugly
a.
b.
c.

bakofried
02-10-2011, 01:16 PM
1.) Try not to double post. Mods get angry, so just edit the other one if you have more to say.
2.) Why the fetches? You're playing Mono-R, so you're just opening yourself up to Stifle, as well as hurting your game towards Zoo.
3.) Why all the one-ofs? You may want to trim them down to 2-3 slots. May I suggest cutting Tuktuk and Chieftain from the main to up Stingscourger and Siege-Gang Commander by 1 apiece.

alphanumeric
02-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Here's my Mono R list: ...
Mono R (and I guess RB) pilots, do you find that you can usually win before an Engineered Plague (or worse, a Moat) hits? Artifact/enchantment removal (offered by splashing G) seems like it would be important in games 2 and 3. (I'm new to the deck, trying to decide what color, if any, to splash.)

GoboLord
02-10-2011, 02:05 PM
Thanks for your positive feedback on the primer so far!

I don't want to write about MUs for 2 reasons:

1) A primer is about describing and building the deck and not about how to play it. Playing style and strategy can change very much in a MU and make it either better or worse. It won't contribute anything if I write that I find Zoo to be a positive and BlackThresh to be a negative MU - some players may find the oppsite. Every players has good an bad MUs, not the deck per se.

2) If I'd write s.th. about MUs I'd like to do it thoroughly. This is a difficult task cause Legacy is a very complex format with virtually thousands of decks. New blocks will bring new decks (Merfolk) and bannings will kill old deck (Vengevival). Making a complete MU analysis would be a very exhausting work.

Seriously, If I'd put in the primer everything we knew about goblins I could make a whole book from it. This would however restrict our flourishing thread to the discussions of new cards and strategies against new decks. I don't want tor make the primer a compendium that everyone can refer to when some beginner posts a question.

Pinoy Goblin
02-10-2011, 02:59 PM
@bakofried

1.Sorry for the double post next time I would compile it into 1 post
2.Why the fetches? I have answered it before and debated it over and over again here, Heres my opinion = I used it as a deck thining,filtering out top draw land cards in the mid game for my ring leaders and if I feel that I need to shuffle my library for a good top draw (intuition). Im not afraid of stifle because its seldom used here except for the stiflenaughtdecks which are not so popular here in our meta and only a hand few players pilot it, plus i have 2-3 REB in my SB's.
3. Why the one of's? I think chieftain for me is a one of(for EP also) plus I like to mainboard tuktuk because many decks here are equiped based (anti gobs jitte/sword fiire ice) plus almost all legacy decks here plays artifacts ryt? so why cut him? I dont want to cut my singleton stingscourger bec I need more removals plus I like using him on early tombstalkers because almost 10% of decks here are mbc.

@Alphanumeric

1. I have 1 chieftain on mainboard and 1 on my SB if ever EP appears plus I have ports/waste to delay his plague or moat. Artifact removal I have tuktuk scrapper, and regarding to enchantment removal I sometimes use 3 ratchetbomb on my sb, depends on your meta really.

Moosedog
02-10-2011, 03:24 PM
Having followed the original thread for some time, well done to everyone involved this is 1000% improvement.

perm
02-10-2011, 05:14 PM
War Marshall is an auto-include if you have 3 Chieftains or more.

Also, I just saw Lightning Crafter. Such tech.

bakofried
02-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Sorry, Pinoy Goblin, but those points have been debated time and time again, and fetches aren't worth it.

ScatmanX
02-10-2011, 05:34 PM
Sorry, Pinoy Goblin, but those points have been debated time and time again, and fetches aren't worth it.
This is true. Someone somewhere did the math of "thining" the deck to improve draws, and it was irrelevant.

GoboLord
02-10-2011, 06:26 PM
This is true. Someone somewhere did the math of "thining" the deck to improve draws, and it was irrelevant.

Hmm let me calculate that...I'm not sure if this particular somebody wasn't underestimating the numbers (I mean 2% difference may be small for lay people, but ask CocaCola what they think of reducing their production costs by 2%, that would save them millions)..well here's the calculation - decide yourself whether those %s are worth it:

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%

Let's now assume half of our lands we had so far were fetchlands
Thus our library size is reduced by 2 , so is our landcount. It's 44 cards (16 lands, 28 nonlands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/44 = 63,63%

...

However this is just one scenerio among many thousands. What I want to point out is that it can't be calculated easily´and results can be interpreted in the favor of the one who's presenting the results. I wouldn't say that running fetchlands in monoR is a bad idea because of it's thinning-effect.
What I find problematic is Stifle, Ringleader (who is actually better in thinning the deck out because he stacks als non-goblin cards on bottom) and lifepoint reduction. You don't want to have Mountains that ping you for 1 dmg.
If you really want to use it's thinning effect you can even hold fetchlands back, cause the thinning-effect correlates negatively with your library size.
Plus, if people think that the effect is small - so be it. Small is good, because it also implies that the disadvantage is small. Fetchlands can even be a big PLUS when you are up against Jace 2.0's fateseal.

Vandalize
02-10-2011, 06:29 PM
My R/G list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
6 [UG] Mountain
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [M11] Back to Nature
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

ScatmanX
02-10-2011, 08:13 PM
Hmm let me calculate that...
If I don't have much work tomorrow, I'll search the article I mentioned. I really don't understand all the math, but I believe some people that do them.


My R/G list...
hmm... Do you want us to do something with that?

Vandalize
02-10-2011, 11:16 PM
If I don't have much work tomorrow, I'll search the article I mentioned. I really don't understand all the math, but I believe some people that do them.


hmm... Do you want us to do something with that?

Forgot to add: TSH should be Goblin Tinkerer in several matches, as it can't be cheated into play neither CMC reduced by Warchief.

Any comments?

Pinoy Goblin
02-10-2011, 11:18 PM
@bakofried:
No prob bro, for some its not worth playing fethces on a mono built but for me it does ,even in the low percentage of helping out deck thining in top draw (Magic also is a game of math) i would still run it plus I have a good placebo effect on it thats why I play it.
The ping damage is ok for me, I have been running my deck for a year now and all I can say is that I'm happy playing with it.

@gobolord:
Thanks for the math bro the 2-3% in the midgame is quite low but it still helps imagine in the late game were we play control that % would go up and chances are better draw for us players. Just my opinion though.

Somethimes in the early draws I have 2-3 fetches I always crack them in the early game even if I had basics in my hand. For Example I have 4 lands in midgame that had been fethched for 4, Ill copy paste gobolord's diagram example:

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%

Let's now assume "ALL" of our 4 lands we had so far were fetched
Thus our library size is reduced by 4 , so is our landcount. It's 42 cards (14 lands, 28 nonlands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/42 = 66,67% ( wow a 6% thats good imagine this in a late game with more fetches cracking up those % would go up)

That if we all drew fethches in the opening hand but try to imagine this if ever we play control in some matches this would realy help us in the latter game in top drawing good cards 2% makes a difference what more is 6% or more in earlydrawing of fetches and during late games.

Ziveeman
02-11-2011, 01:17 AM
Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

Basically while it does thin your deck, the cost of life is greater than the effect of thinning your deck. Take it as you will - I would advise against it though. Shuffling after you Ringleader a couple lands back down to the bottom seems a little bad to me.

GoboLord
02-11-2011, 06:03 AM
Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

Basically while it does thin your deck, the cost of life is greater than the effect of thinning your deck. Take it as you will - I would advise against it though. Shuffling after you Ringleader a couple lands back down to the bottom seems a little bad to me.

One can't weigh lifepoints against deck-thinning on a objective basis. This is s.th. you cannot calculate (actually that's not even what the authors points out in his article) - everyone has to decide on his own wether to use fetches or not.
However, you are right that there are many good reasons for not running more fetchlands than necessary.

//EDIT: Thanks for providing the article! (nearly forgot that, sry)

ScatmanX
02-11-2011, 07:15 AM
Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
Yeah, this was it. Thanks!

Nameless Two
02-11-2011, 08:53 AM
Just one tiny thing more to keep in mind on using fetches: You don't realy want to thin your deck if you need that extra mountain... Sometimes you want that extra land from the top of your library.

bruizar
02-11-2011, 09:11 AM
Sensation Gorger with Chains of Mephistopheles is backbreaking

jrw1985
02-11-2011, 05:35 PM
Sensation Gorger with Chains of Mephistopheles is backbreaking

Ahh! My brain! Chains of Mephistopheles is too complicated for me to wrap my mind around. And it doesn't make sense. Every time you draw a card (other than your draw step) you discard a card instead. Then you draw a card.

So you tap Archivist (why not?) and draw a card. But instead you discard a card because of Chains, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card.

OK, I understand that Chains doesn't replace its draw with its own replacement effect, so it's not really an infinite cycle unto itself. But it should be. And it doesn't really do anything with Gorger other than mill you and your opponent for 4. Gorger makes everyone discard their hand, then they go to draw 4 but need to discard 4 first. Since they already discarded their hand to Gorger then have none to discard to Chain and mill instead of draw. but you mill too. So it doesn't really do anything.

Might I suggest Painter/Grindstone if you're interested in milling?

bruizar
02-11-2011, 06:00 PM
You are missing the point jrw1985

The plan is not to mill, the plan is to mind twist your opponent every turn. You force them to discard their hand, and they get zero cards back. You blank all counter spells, and every other spell they can't cast before you flip with Gorger are gone for ever. Also, Ringleader is unaffected by Chains of Mephistopheles because you don't draw off the Ringleader, so it's not really symmetrical at all. Goblins has the ability to dump its hand in a flash. It's save to say Goblins is a deck that can easily swarm/dominate the board. That means if you can deal with your opponent's hand, you will win the game.

I'm not saying this even has room in the current Goblin builds out their, but I know one thing. Mindtwist every turn wins games, especially if you already have creatures out.

Nidd
02-11-2011, 06:16 PM
Since some people don't seem to get it, what do you guys think: Is Vial Goblins the Aggro deck of the format? Should it always play the Aggro role?

bakofried
02-11-2011, 06:19 PM
Yes and no. It plays the control role fairly well, has an incredibly disruptive manabase, and one of the strongest CA engines printed. But it also has a t3 goldfish. Teehee.

Gun4Hire
02-11-2011, 07:11 PM
This is my current deck list

Lands: 23
3 mountains
2 badlands
2 taiga
8 fetchland
4 wasteland
4 rishandan port

artifacts: 4
4 aether vial

Creatures: 31
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin piledriver
3 mogg war marshall
1 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege gang commander

tribal sorcery: 2
2 warren weirding

sideboard : 15
4 cabal therapy
4 leyline of the void
4 pyrokinesis
3 krosan grip

In my opinion of the whole R/G vs R/B debate i asked Patrick Chapman when i was at the San Jose Legacy open and asked him about which splash he thought was better overall and he asked me back what lands were i running? It was 5 mountains and 2 taigas with 8 fetches 4 wasteland/ports and he said why don't you take 2 mountains out and put two badlands in and run both splashes? What deck do you really need 5 basics against he asked me? I thought about it and honestly IMO he makes a good point.

I used to only run the green splash for access to a MB Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan Grips in the sideboard because the enchantment that hampers goblins the most is definitely ENGINEERING PLAGUE and the artifact(s) that Goblins hate the most is 60/40 split between SWORD OF FIRE AND ICE and UMEZAWA'S JITTE.

So while the Green splash gives you answers to these mentioned above back breaking cards, it cannot answer other strong deck strategies as efficiently as a Black splash can.

For combo Black has Cabal therapy while green really only has Chalice of the Void or Mindbreak Trap. And any good combo player will Duress your hand before they go off in the Post-Board games nullifying MindBreak Trap as your defense.

For graveyard strategies Black has Leyline of the Void which is absolutely the most efficient graveyard strategy hate ever printed. While Green splash has only access to clunky cards like Tormod's Crypt and Relic Of Progenitus.

Also Black gives you Warren Weirding which helps Goblins against decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell decks (and the occasional lone Tarmogoyf). These decks drop Big creatures Goblins cant really deal with in the first couple turns of a game. And Warren Weirding in the MB at least gives you an out. The Green splash has only Stingscourger for this role which it fills very well but Warren Weirding gets a (+1) bonus causes it can still kill a Iona after they name red and it can even kill a creature with protection or shroud as long as its alone on the field.

Now with the R/B/G splash its not as taxing on the mana base as you might think. I personally run 23 land but with the duel splashes I wouldn't argue against running 24 land -1 Piledriver (so 3 MB total) from the MB and running another mountain or Badland/Taiga.

But now because of the duel splashes it gets a little more tricky on how and when to play your lands throughout a game. For instance in my opening hand I draw a mountain and a fetchland. I would play the mountain first before the fetchland not only to prevent the 1 damage so early in the game but to keep my options open til i get a better idea what kind of deck my opponent is playing. If my opponent plays creatures when i use fetchlands i would be more inclined to fetch Badlands so when i draw Warren Weirding i can play it right away. Same goes for if my opponent is playing troublesome artifacts. I would want my Taigas for green for Hooligan. You want to play your fetches more after you know what color you need your answers from.

And most games when you side board your only going for solutions one of the two splashes offers. But never be afraid to use both.

VS COUNTERBALANCE
-1 SHARPSHOOTER, -2 WARRENWEIRDING OR -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+3 KROSAN GRIPS
(OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -1 TIN STREET,-3 MOGG WAR MARSHALL

VS MERFOLK
-4 GOBLIN LACKEY
+4 PYROKINESIS

VS DREDGE
-4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 SIEGE GANG COMMANDER,-2 WARREN WEIRDING
+4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4PYROKINESIS
(OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -4 OTHER CARDS)

VS ELVES
-2 WARREN WEIRDING, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 PILEDRIVER
+4 PYROKINESIS
(OPTIONAL -4 AETHER VIAL, +4 CABAL THERAPY)

VS REANIMATOR
-4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN , -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4 CABAL THERAPY

VS SHOW AND TELL
-1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR, -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER
+4 CABAL THERAPY
(OPTIONAL +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, -4 OTHER CARDS. TRY TO EXILE EMRAKUL BETWEEN CABAL AND LEYLINE)

VS ZOO
-1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -1 AETHER VIALCARDS OF CHOICE
+4 PYROKINESIS
(ZOO HAS ALOT OF DIFFERENT VARIATIONS SO JUST WATCH WHAT CARDS THEY PLAY AND THINK ON YOUR FEET)

VS GOBLINS
-2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 PILEDRIVER
+4 PYROKINESIS

VS BLACK/WHITE JUNK AND GREEN/WHITE TAXES
-2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -5 OTHER CARDS DEPENDANT ON THEIR VERSION OF THE DECK)
+4 PYROKINESIS, +3 KROSAN GRIP

VS TENDRILS AND OTHER STORM/COMBO DECKS
-4 AETHER VIAL, -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+4 CABAL THERAPY, +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID
(OPTIONAL +4 PYROKINESIS IF YOU THINK THEY WILL USE EMPTY THE WARRENS)

VS BELCHER
-4 AETHER VIAL
+4 CABAL THERAPY

VS DECKS WITH BLACK
(IF A DECK RUNS BLACK BE PREPARED FOR ENGINEERING PLAGUE)
+3 KROSAN GRIPS

Humphrey
02-11-2011, 08:13 PM
I had a really low count of basics myself, around 3 and it was horrible against merfolk, canadian thresh, stilfenought, loam and lands, not talking about decks that run pop
Id strongly recommend 5+ basics, Im playing a basic swamp too and it was necessary very often.

Depends on the meta though, if youre playing against decks w/o Wasteland..

Justin
02-11-2011, 11:15 PM
This is my current deck list

Lands: 23
3 mountains
2 badlands
2 taiga
8 fetchland
4 wasteland
4 rishandan port

artifacts: 4
4 aether vial

Creatures: 31
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin piledriver
3 mogg war marshall
1 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege gang commander

tribal sorcery: 2
2 warren weirding

sideboard : 15
4 cabal therapy
4 leyline of the void
4 pyrokinesis
3 krosan grip

it gets a little more tricky on how and when to play your lands throughout a game. For instance in my opening hand I draw a mountain and a fetchland. I would play the mountain first before the fetchland not only to prevent the 1 damage so early in the game but to keep my options open til i get a better idea what kind of deck my opponent is playing. If my opponent plays creatures when i use fetchlands i would be more inclined to fetch Badlands so when i draw Warren Weirding i can play it right away. Same goes for if my opponent is playing troublesome artifacts. I would want my Taigas for green for Hooligan. You want to play your fetches more after you know what color you need your answers from.

And most games when you side board your only going for solutions one of the two splashes offers. But never be afraid to use both.

VS COUNTERBALANCE
-1 SHARPSHOOTER, -2 WARRENWEIRDING OR -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+3 KROSAN GRIPS
(OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -1 TIN STREET,-3 MOGG WAR MARSHALL

VS MERFOLK
-4 GOBLIN LACKEY
+4 PYROKINESIS

VS DREDGE
-4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 SIEGE GANG COMMANDER,-2 WARREN WEIRDING
+4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4PYROKINESIS
(OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -4 OTHER CARDS)

VS ELVES
-2 WARREN WEIRDING, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 PILEDRIVER
+4 PYROKINESIS
(OPTIONAL -4 AETHER VIAL, +4 CABAL THERAPY)

VS REANIMATOR
-4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN , -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4 CABAL THERAPY

VS SHOW AND TELL
-1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR, -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER
+4 CABAL THERAPY
(OPTIONAL +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, -4 OTHER CARDS. TRY TO EXILE EMRAKUL BETWEEN CABAL AND LEYLINE)

VS ZOO
-1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -1 AETHER VIALCARDS OF CHOICE
+4 PYROKINESIS
(ZOO HAS ALOT OF DIFFERENT VARIATIONS SO JUST WATCH WHAT CARDS THEY PLAY AND THINK ON YOUR FEET)

VS GOBLINS
-2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 PILEDRIVER
+4 PYROKINESIS

VS BLACK/WHITE JUNK AND GREEN/WHITE TAXES
-2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -5 OTHER CARDS DEPENDANT ON THEIR VERSION OF THE DECK)
+4 PYROKINESIS, +3 KROSAN GRIP

VS TENDRILS AND OTHER STORM/COMBO DECKS
-4 AETHER VIAL, -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
+4 CABAL THERAPY, +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID
(OPTIONAL +4 PYROKINESIS IF YOU THINK THEY WILL USE EMPTY THE WARRENS)

VS BELCHER
-4 AETHER VIAL
+4 CABAL THERAPY

VS DECKS WITH BLACK
(IF A DECK RUNS BLACK BE PREPARED FOR ENGINEERING PLAGUE)
+3 KROSAN GRIPS

Thanks for taking the time to post your sideboarding choices. To be honest, I disagree with a number of your recommendations. The advice of boarding out Lackey against Merfolk is new to me. This seems like a bad mistake. Lackey seems strong against Merfolk, especially when you are on the play. On the play, they can only stop it with Force of Will or Cursecatcher (which you could incinerate or remove later). Even on the draw, Lackey seems strong, as Merfolk do not run spot removal. I would probably cut War Marshal against them.

BTW, Warren Weirding can be useful against Dredge, as you can cast it on yourself to break Bridge.

You are running sharshooter and should also play Skirk Prospector as a one-of to make it better.

FoxBlade
02-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.

Gun4Hire
02-11-2011, 11:52 PM
Hey Justin thanks for the comment and I used to agree with you about boarding out Lackey against merfolk was wrong but remember alot of merfolk decks pack daze and force of will and sideboard in hydroblast and blue elemental blast so alot of times you play lackey and it wont survive. long but its up to personal choice cuz a Lackey that connects can blow a game out.

Against Dredge remember that pyrokinesis can hit your guys too and its free and hits multiple targets.

And i do agree skirk is awesome with sharpshooter and i used to run both and they won me games together but its hard to get both on the field at the same time, alot of the time.

perm
02-12-2011, 12:33 AM
Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.

You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way

Nelis
02-12-2011, 03:37 AM
I had a really low count of basics myself, around 3 and it was horrible against merfolk, canadian thresh, stilfenought, loam and lands, not talking about decks that run pop
Id strongly recommend 5+ basics, Im playing a basic swamp too and it was necessary very often.

Depends on the meta though, if youre playing against decks w/o Wasteland..

You can also just add more B mana sources like hovels.

Humphrey
02-12-2011, 09:41 AM
You can also just add more B mana sources like hovels.

Idid run Hovels, because of that i had a low basic count. I cant see where this helps here. If the opppnent has double Waste, recurring waste or even stifle on top and you dont have vial its gg.

Nelis
02-12-2011, 12:05 PM
Idid run Hovels, because of that i had a low basic count. I cant see where this helps here. If the opppnent has double Waste, recurring waste or even stifle on top and you dont have vial its gg.

If your opponent has double waste than you are just unlucky. Recurring Wastes is not nice I agree. Apparently your metagame has a lot of decks that can screw you that way ( I kinda overlooked that fact when I replied) I think it's better for you to play Mono Red.

Why do Hovels and Badlands make you worry about Stifle? You would be running less fetch lands so the need to fetch a black mana source is lowered and thus Stifle doesn't screw you much.

FoxBlade
02-12-2011, 12:12 PM
You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way

2% is stil worth it to me. The article that was posted doesn't take a look at deck builds nessisarily or what you are drawing/playing, just drawing lands vs. nonlands in regards to deck thinning.

This part:



Obviously, these numbers are merely averages, but they do tell us that it takes an awful long time for the card advantage to be realized. It’s impossible to determine exactly when the extra would actually be drawn, given the randomness of the system, but we can expect it to be close to the turns noted above. What’s happening is that despite the life being paid immediately, the advantage of extra cards are realize quite a long time later, as the probabilities begin to skew upwards as more cards are being drawn, and as more lands are later being thinned.

Doesn't take into account what spells you are playing (such as tutor cards or draw cards) in conjunction with fetches. So I think that the article is a little flawed, having a 2% (or more) increase in addition to draw/tutor cards that can help us thin the deck further and help give us better odds of drawing a spell as opposed to a land when you don't need it is worth the loss of life imo.

Also I do not view life as being all that important when determining an outcome as opposed to board control or card advantage in MTG. Life totals is one of the fewest factors that is relevant (other than your life being 0, of course) in determining the outcome.

In other words the argument that it isn't worth the loss of life isn't worth a possible 2% increase to your odds of drawing, doesn't strike me as a strong argument because if you're worried about fetch land damage being relevant to your outcome, you were probably lossing anyway due to several other factors (board control, card advantage).

Pinoy Goblin
02-12-2011, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.


Originally Posted by Perm
You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way

@Perm

I dont think cracking 4 fetches is an absurb amount to reach that 6%

Nidd
02-12-2011, 01:06 PM
2% is stil worth it to me. The article that was posted doesn't take a look at deck builds nessisarily or what you are drawing/playing, just drawing lands vs. nonlands in regards to deck thinning.

This part:



Doesn't take into account what spells you are playing (such as tutor cards or draw cards) in conjunction with fetches. So I think that the article is a little flawed, having a 2% (or more) increase in addition to draw/tutor cards that can help us thin the deck further and help give us better odds of drawing a spell as opposed to a land when you don't need it is worth the loss of life imo.

Also I do not view life as being all that important when determining an outcome as opposed to board control or card advantage in MTG. Life totals is one of the fewest factors that is relevant (other than your life being 0, of course) in determining the outcome.

In other words the argument that it isn't worth the loss of life isn't worth a possible 2% increase to your odds of drawing, doesn't strike me as a strong argument because if you're worried about fetch land damage being relevant to your outcome, you were probably lossing anyway due to several other factors (board control, card advantage).
Against Control, sure, I'd pay 15 life to draw better cards, but when you play against Zoo or something similiar, it adds up quite fast.

perm
02-12-2011, 02:53 PM
@Perm

I dont think cracking 4 fetches is an absurb amount to reach that 6%

You need 12+ to reach 6%. If you play fetches in monocolored you're bad lol, that's about all I can say
are you aware that stifle is the be st land destruction in the format?

Caspid
02-12-2011, 06:18 PM
My $0.02, based on the math: It takes an EXTREMELY long time for the thinning effects of fetches to become significant, and even then their usefulness is highly debatable. If you're running monoR, there's no reason to be running fetches unless you enjoy killing yourself, losing to Stifle, and undoing your Ringleaders' effects (which are least on par with cracking a couple fetches).

Pinoy Goblin
02-12-2011, 10:06 PM
" originaly posted by Perm

You need 12+ to reach 6%. If you play fetches in monocolored you're bad lol, that's about all I can say
are you aware that stifle is the be st land destruction in the format?

@Perm
Can you show me how did you come up with that number using 12 fetches?

Anyways, Ill copy paste gobolord's diagram example:

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%

Let's now assume "ALL" of our 4 lands we had so far were fetched
Thus our library size is reduced by 4 , so is our landcount. It's 42 cards (14 lands, 28 nonlands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/42 = 66,67%
60.86%(without Fetches) minus 66.67%(cracking 4 fetches) = 5.81% rounded down to 6%
( wow a 6% thats good imagine this in a late game with more fetches cracking up those % would go up)

That if we all drew fethches in the opening hand but try to imagine this if ever we play control in some matches this would realy help us in the latter game in top drawing good cards 2% makes a difference what more is 6% or more in earlydrawing of fetches and during late games.

bakofried
02-13-2011, 12:31 AM
Life is not as important as card quality and card advantage, I will give you that. But it's not just about life. Stifle stills sees play (and plenty of it) and personally, the 4 life you're giving up to get that noticeable advantage (assuming Gobolord's math is correct) is making Zoo laugh at you, giving any storm based deck an additional 2 to their storm count, and screwing with your Ringleaders, who are far more important than the slight percentage it gives you. Ringleader clashes with fetches, he does not synergize with them, and that is something you need to accept. Once that has been accomplished, you need to ask, which is more important, fetches or Ringleader.

GoboLord
02-13-2011, 08:34 AM
Life is not as important as card quality and card advantage, I will give you that. But it's not just about life. Stifle stills sees play (and plenty of it) and personally, the 4 life you're giving up to get that noticeable advantage (assuming Gobolord's math is correct) is making Zoo laugh at you, giving any storm based deck an additional 2 to their storm count, and screwing with your Ringleaders, who are far more important than the slight percentage it gives you. Ringleader clashes with fetches, he does not synergize with them, and that is something you need to accept. Once that has been accomplished, you need to ask, which is more important, fetches or Ringleader.

Absolutely! That's the point.




Goblin Ringleader (RL)
Goblin Ringleader is considered the 2nd win-condition of our deck because he ensures (directly or indirectly) that we won’t run out of creatures in the course of the game. IMO Ringleader can (when played correctly) never disappoint us: Imagine he reveals us 4 lands in late-game – did he disappoint us? Certainly not! Imagine how the game would have ended if we’d drawn 4 lands in a row!
Someone once called him a “walking Ancestral Recall”. I strongly disagree! Ringleader has much more facets than AR, which makes him one of (if not THE) most powerful cards of the deck.
Did you know that?
Ringleader is the worst in early game: What does our deck need in turn 1-3? Right – lands! What does our deck not need in turn 1-3? Right – more Goblins! So here comes the question: What does a Ringleader do when pitched via Lackey in turn 1-3? He either stacks lands and Vials on bottom of library and/or provides us with more Goblins. For those reasons we should better try to hold Ringleader back until our hand is (nearly) empty and/or all shuffle effects (Matron, fetchlands) are used. Otherwise the lands and Vials we stacked on bottom of library are reshuffled into our library and the chance to draw goblins is decreased.



-------------------

Different topic: What do you think of Gaea's Cradle in Goblins?
* killer synergies with MWM and SGC
* mana ramp for Matron, Ringleader and SGC


My current list:

//Lands [22]
7 Waste/Port
7 Fetchlands
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Gaea's Cradle

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 L. Bolt
1 Stingscourger

3 MWM
1 Tin Street Hooligan

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature's Claim
1 Vexing Shusher

Humphrey
02-13-2011, 12:34 PM
Cradle is interesting at least, but i often find myself lacking enough red sources to spam the board, because the colorless cost is already reduced by warchief. Its useless in the first turns and later not useful enough.

GoboLord
02-13-2011, 12:40 PM
Cradle is interesting at least, but i often find myself lacking enough red sources to spam the board, because the colorless cost is already reduced by warchief. Its useless in the first turns and later not useful enough.

That's why I cutted the 8th manadenial.
It's not useless in the first few turns because that's when you usually have 1-3 creatures in play. After some testing I dodn't find it bad in lategame because it enables overwhelming, sudden cardadvantage with RL even without Vial in play. So far Cradle has been producing not less than 2 mana everytime I had it in play.

Humphrey
02-13-2011, 12:50 PM
Sure, there might be some uses from time to time but in the end the question is if those events happen more often than the use of another land.

As i said, on an advanced board i usually cant get much use of colorless sources. But thats just my impression.

Also i can remember many games where i started with 2 lands, vial and 3-drops and couldnt play them before vial hits 3 because i was lacking the 3rd land.


But i really like to discuss the advantages of rb over rg and monoR
I dont see any in the current meta.

GoboLord
02-13-2011, 02:16 PM
Also i can remember many games where i started with 2 lands, vial and 3-drops and couldnt play them before vial hits 3 because i was lacking the 3rd land.
And why is Cradle worse than any other land in this situation?



But i really like to discuss the advantages of rb over rg and monoR
I dont see any in the current meta.

The current German meta is different from that in the US.
I feel the same way: I don't see any reason why Rb is superior to Mono R and Rg in our meta. After intense testing the only black card I found good was Earwig Squad (I think he deserves a slot in MD). I'm not willing to splash B just for that.

FieryBalrog
02-13-2011, 06:56 PM
@Perm
Can you show me how did you come up with that number using 12 fetches?

Anyways, Ill copy paste gobolord's diagram example:

Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%

Let's now assume "ALL" of our 4 lands we had so far were fetched
Thus our library size is reduced by 4 , so is our landcount. It's 42 cards (14 lands, 28 nonlands)

The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/42 = 66,67%
60.86%(without Fetches) minus 66.67%(cracking 4 fetches) = 5.81% rounded down to 6%
( wow a 6% thats good imagine this in a late game with more fetches cracking up those % would go up)

That if we all drew fethches in the opening hand but try to imagine this if ever we play control in some matches this would realy help us in the latter game in top drawing good cards 2% makes a difference what more is 6% or more in earlydrawing of fetches and during late games.

Please read this article:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

Believing in deck thinning at this point is like believing in astrology. There are several valid reasons to run fetchlands even in mono-colored decks, but deck-thinning is not one of them.

Doomsday
02-13-2011, 07:58 PM
Comparing deck thinning to astrology is a joke. The article assumes you're drawing 1 card per turn. In decks with a draw engine (ie good decks) the thinning obviously shows up much quicker. For instance try playing combo elves with 14 forests vs fetches plus forests and tell me that "believing in deck thinning is like believing in astrology".

perm
02-13-2011, 08:51 PM
Are you actually trying to say that decks without draw engines are bad?

And this is a thread about goblins. there is no draw.

The only decks with a statistically significant draw engine as far as thinning is concerned is specific types of combo, usually just ones that involve glimpse of nature really.

ScatmanX
02-13-2011, 08:53 PM
And this is a thread about goblins. there is no draw.
I guess Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader and Gempalm Incinerator would like to have a word with you.

perm
02-13-2011, 10:33 PM
My superficial observations:

Sensation Gorger looks completely bonkers. It serves two purposes: Constantly refilling your hand, as if you keep four or more card in hand mid to late game in vial goblins, something is very wrong. It is also nice to screw with control decks and other decks that keep large/specific/tutored hands. It's even optional if you don't want to. Could compete with Ringleader, maybe going half and half.

Goblin King: How is it bad as a 1-of in sideboard is so bad. If it play you absolutely steamroll a red deck.

Arew
02-14-2011, 10:35 AM
I decided to mix the two splashes yesterday and came up with a list that looks like this:

Lands - 22
5x Mountain
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadin Port
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Arid Mesa

Creatures - 32
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
3x Mogg War Marshal
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Chieftan
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Tin-Street Hooligan

Artifacts - 4
4x Aether Vial

Sorcery - 2
2x Warren Wierding

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I was thinking of cutting a Gempalm Incinerator so I could put Stingscourger back in, but I'm not sure if that's the right move.

LostButSeeking
02-14-2011, 12:15 PM
I feel the same way: I don't see any reason why Rb is superior to Mono R and Rg in our meta. After intense testing the only black card I found good was Earwig Squad (I think he deserves a slot in MD). I'm not willing to splash B just for that.

No love for warren weirding? That card has been nothing but money for me.

GoboLord
02-14-2011, 12:40 PM
No love for warren weirding? That card has been nothing but money for me.

Well, the question which removal is best has to do with metagame of course.
But I feel that Lightning Bolt(s), the 4th Gempalm and Stingscourger are way better option to deal with anything that WW can deal with.
This is how I weigh it's PROs and CONs

PRO: WW is a Goblin
CON: Stingscourger is a Goblin

PRO: It doesn't target (it's an editct)
CON: It doesn't target (oftentimes opponents sacrifice creatures that could be dealt with by either Bolt, Gempalm or Stinger too)

CON: it needs B splash
CON: it is a Tribal Sorcery (which Goyfs out of Gempalm's range very often, this in turn requires you play MWMs in Goyf-heavy metagames)
CON: it can only be played with Instant-Speed (even Stinger can be Vialed in!)
CON: it can't deal dmg to your oppnent's life (STnger, Gempalm and Bolt can!)

The best arguments (with respect to the meta) to run WW are Progenitus, Argothian Enchantress and Nimble Mongoose - we have no other removal availabe for them.

from Cairo
02-14-2011, 12:56 PM
Different topic: What do you think of Gaea's Cradle in Goblins?
* killer synergies with MWM and SGC
* mana ramp for Matron, Ringleader and SGC


As a 1-of it probably doesn't make a huge difference one way or another.

But it's a card that thrives when you have guys on the board, and produces off color mana. It has poor synergies with Goblin Warchief and Aether Vial. IE: both of those cards help alleviate the high mana costs of your guys and make a surplus of colorless mana less useful. It strikes me as win more - when you're curving out and your opponent isn't answering your guys on board, then it will power you into more stuff. Where the mana disruption from Rishadan Port or Wasteland can help you disrupt your opponent to get important spells to resolve or important spells of your opponent's not to resolve. Just seems like the mana disruption has the ability to dig you out of some unfavorable positions (answering Tabernacle or Maze of Ith; keeping control off 3-4 mana), where Gaea's Cradle isn't going to help. While rare, it seems like it has the potential to make some hands that would be workable unkeepable. IE: Mountain, Lackey, Port/Waste/Cradle, Driver/MWM, 3 other spells - where if Lackey gets answered you're stuck on mana and with Port/Waste you'd still have options open.

Again, overall it probably makes little difference, but I'd err on the side of running the 4th Rishadan Port or Wasteland over it.

jrw1985
02-14-2011, 01:24 PM
I decided to mix the two splashes yesterday and came up with a list that looks like this:

Lands - 22
5x Mountain
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadin Port
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Arid Mesa

Creatures - 32
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
3x Mogg War Marshal
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Chieftan
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Tin-Street Hooligan

Artifacts - 4
4x Aether Vial

Sorcery - 2
2x Warren Wierding

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Vexing Shusher

I was thinking of cutting a Gempalm Incinerator so I could put Stingscourger back in, but I'm not sure if that's the right move.

Manabase looks really solid. I used to run the same manabase when I ran Rbg. However, I switched away from it when I realized a lot of non-basic hate was being played against me. There was also a regular 43Lands player at my weekly tourney and his deck just preyed on decks that ran all their sorces of one color as non-basics. Having a color locked out by mana denial (Wastelands) left me with dead cards in hand. I decided that if a color was worth playing then at least 1 basic land for that color should be played. I couldn't see myself running a basic forest EVER (since I ran no MD green cards), but I could run a swamp. So I switched to a Rb build and haven't looked back since. There actually aren't that many times that you really need K-Grip anyway, i've found. Having a Swamp to guarantee playing a perish or Weirding has been much more effective.
2 Weirdings looks good.
Prospector and Sharpshooter I could do without. Prospector as a 1-of just doesn't seem worth it to me. Sure, he lets you do cool and sneaky things, but I don't think he's overly necessary. Same with Sharpshooter. Occassionally he's a game winner, but often he just sits around. I would replace these guys with a 4th Gempalm and that Stingscourger you wanted.
Sideboard-
Leyline is fine if you insist on playing scared (yeah, I said it). I think you can get away with running 3 Crypts instead, but it's your call.
Therapy is also fine. You can play it against anything but I prefer Chalice against combo.
KGrip I don't think you really need. What do you play it against that you can't find a red card for? Moat, Engineered Plague..... ?
Pyrokinesis is great. You should add a 4th or a Perish too.
Shusher has been surprisingly good to me in the past, especially when I've played Chalice.

Overall, pretty good 75.
happy hunting

jrw1985
02-14-2011, 01:51 PM
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/slinging-mud-2nd-place-at-scg-indy/
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36630

MUD is now in Legacy! This is a cool deck that put up good results (2nd at SCG Indy) and I wouldn't be surprised if this and more controlling variants became commonplace. Has anyone had a chance to playtest against it? I built the deck on tappedout.net and it plays quickly and consistently. It seems that our best bet against it would be Pyrokinesis because the deck's explosiveness is based around Metalworker activations T2, so burning it out at instant speed puts them on a slower path and exposes them to their own painlands. But it's not as easy as just burning a Metalworker. You also need to keep Welder from recurring their shit, and Wurmcoil Engine is just a world of beating for us. They can hardcast that shit T3 with no accelerators. And it replaces itself! And it has Lifelink! Eek! I do not want that card to find a home in legacy.

Now my question is, will this deck require us to start playing artifact sweepers like Pulverize? I think this is a strong deck with many possible variations and I think it will find a niche in the format. And hate against it will also be good against Affinity, which is perpetually almost becoming playable.

Thoughts?

LostButSeeking
02-14-2011, 02:39 PM
CON: it can't deal dmg to your oppnent's life (STnger, Gempalm and Bolt can!)

Well, I guess it's a matter of personal taste and metagame, but I wanted to quibble about this point specifically, because I won a game last week by turning my 2x Warren Wierding into three goblin tokens by saccing a MWM token to it. It was great. The look on his face when I told them the tokens had haste was just . . .:cool:

There are other things that I think we disagree on as well. I love MWM, for example. If Matron is demonic tutor and ringleader is fact or fiction, MWM is moment's peace, except better because he can attack and you don't have to pay for the flash back. I also feel that, unless Dreadstill starts making a resurgence, stingscourger is a little weak. Not terrible, you understand, but a little weaker than killing something (anything, most of the time) dead. First turn lackey second turn stingscourger on their blocker made me sad inside, and I was glad to cut them for the weirdings.



MUD is now in Legacy! . . . Thoughts?

My thoughts are that I wish Manic Vandal had been a Goblin. Seriously. We should not have to pay four to kill an artifact with a goblin, nor have summoning sickness.

GoboLord
02-14-2011, 03:21 PM
Well, I guess it's a matter of personal taste and metagame, but I wanted to quibble about this point specifically, because I won a game last week by turning my 2x Warren Wierding into three goblin tokens by saccing a MWM token to it. It was great. The look on his face when I told them the tokens had haste was just . . .:cool:

There are other things that I think we disagree on as well. I love MWM, for example. If Matron is demonic tutor and ringleader is fact or fiction, MWM is moment's peace, except better because he can attack and you don't have to pay for the flash back. I also feel that, unless Dreadstill starts making a resurgence, stingscourger is a little weak. Not terrible, you understand, but a little weaker than killing something (anything, most of the time) dead. First turn lackey second turn stingscourger on their blocker made me sad inside, and I was glad to cut them for the weirdings.


I do run MWM, the cards is just great. I wanted to say that WW somehow "forces" you to run them because you need a slightly higher Goblin count to kill Goyfs via Gempalm.

pater
02-14-2011, 04:58 PM
Hey guys, first off I just wanted to say thanks to Gobolord for making a new primer. Good setup and explanations. Should be playing in a tourney this upcoming weekend, so I'll post my list once I'm 100% on it.

My core is set, and I'm happy with my removal package (currently 3 WW, 3 Gempalm, 1 SS), but now I'm down to my last 4 spots and I'm playing musical chairs deciding who goes in. I'm running with 2 MWM, a sharpshooter and prospector at the moment, but I'm not positive about it. People have posted that it makes a turn-3 kill possible, but in no way LIKELY. I'd really just like someone to explain the argument for sharpshooter-prospector, other than pointing out that it CAN kill turn-3. Sharpshooter looks like it sits in the sideboard, for obvious reasons, but my point about Prospector is this: For turn-3 kill, you need to have god-hand, if prospector isn't there, it's officially dead in the deck. And I know saccing tokens for mana is cool, and so is untapping sharpshooter, but I'm not gonna be Matroning for a prospector late-game.

My only other question falls on the 4th Rishadan Port; necessary or not? Got the 4 wastelands, 22 lands total.

GoboLord
02-14-2011, 05:18 PM
Hey guys, first off I just wanted to say thanks to Gobolord for making a new primer. Good setup and explanations. Should be playing in a tourney this upcoming weekend, so I'll post my list once I'm 100% on it.

My core is set, and I'm happy with my removal package (currently 3 WW, 3 Gempalm, 1 SS), but now I'm down to my last 4 spots and I'm playing musical chairs deciding who goes in. I'm running with 2 MWM, a sharpshooter and prospector at the moment, but I'm not positive about it. People have posted that it makes a turn-3 kill possible, but in no way LIKELY. I'd really just like someone to explain the argument for sharpshooter-prospector, other than pointing out that it CAN kill turn-3. Sharpshooter looks like it sits in the sideboard, for obvious reasons, but my point about Prospector is this: For turn-3 kill, you need to have god-hand, if prospector isn't there, it's officially dead in the deck. And I know saccing tokens for mana is cool, and so is untapping sharpshooter, but I'm not gonna be Matroning for a prospector late-game.

My only other question falls on the 4th Rishadan Port; necessary or not? Got the 4 wastelands, 22 lands total.

That's what the primer says:

Skirk Prospector is typically found alongside with Sharpshooter. However Sharphooter is not the only reason to run him a 1-of. The most important thing about Prospector is, that he does many things: fight Jitte, ramp cards like Matron, SGC and Ringleader, defuse Bridge from Below and provide instant-mana for Rishadan Port and Lightning Bolt. In the old thread we had an extended discussion about Skirk Prospector, approximately starting at page 282 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page282).

I agree with you that Sharpshooter is SB-material. You can just replace Shooter by the 3rd MWM.
If your list is RB you can try Volrath's Stronghold instead of the 4th Port (eternal Gempalm anyone?). Otherwise I'd highly recommend as many Ports as possible

Vandalize
02-14-2011, 10:34 PM
If you guys are so concerned about MUD, just add some Shattering Spree (in addition to KGrips) in sideboard, and you should be really fine. Also, it's REALLY important to kill their Metalworker as fast as possible.

jrw1985
02-15-2011, 12:23 PM
If you guys are so concerned about MUD, just add some Shattering Spree (in addition to KGrips) in sideboard, and you should be really fine. Also, it's REALLY important to kill their Metalworker as fast as possible.

What I'm really worried about is Wurmcoil Engine. Without access to StP or Moat this guy is the baddest beatstick in Legacy. At 6 mana he's actually castable without a deck built around mana acceleration (though it helps), he recurs with Welder, he has lifelink, he becomes more problematic once he dies. This card is just amazing. He's basically an automatic 3-for-1. It will take 1 card to kill the Wurmcoil card then 2 cards to kill the Wurmcoil tokens. And he's an easy T2 play, hardcast. White decks can just remove him, but don't have that luxury.

(nameless one)
02-15-2011, 12:25 PM
Would a well-timed Stingscourger help with that problem? Possibly try to swing for the win the following turn?

Vandalize
02-15-2011, 12:55 PM
What I'm really worried about is Wurmcoil Engine. Without access to StP or Moat this guy is the baddest beatstick in Legacy. At 6 mana he's actually castable without a deck built around mana acceleration (though it helps), he recurs with Welder, he has lifelink, he becomes more problematic once he dies. This card is just amazing. He's basically an automatic 3-for-1. It will take 1 card to kill the Wurmcoil card then 2 cards to kill the Wurmcoil tokens. And he's an easy T2 play, hardcast. White decks can just remove him, but don't have that luxury.

That's why you can't let them use their mana acceleration. Killing Metalworker, Goblin Welder, along with heavy mana denial (Port is really good against them) is a must need. Once they put some fattie (Wurmcoil or Forgemaster), you're really about to lose... Pyrokinesis is our best out against them, because it's also in range of Phyrexian Revoker (which is a really common T1 play postboard).

They usually go for T1 Revoker and T2 Lodestone Golem, postboard. I love my foe's face when I Pyrokinesis them both. I thought about Shattering Spree as an SB option because it can kill their most problematic cards, like Voltaic Key and Grim Monolith (and Metalworker, Revoker, Moxen, Forgemaster, etc...). But it'd cost a turn, since SSpree is really mana heavy.

ScatmanX
02-15-2011, 01:05 PM
Yes, if your meta have some MUD and affinity popping up here and there, I think Shattering Spree is the way to go.
That with Stingscourger may be our best shot.
Maybe Null Rod to...

GoboLord
02-15-2011, 02:31 PM
Again I'm not willing to pay mana for my hate-cards. Therefore I think Pulverize is the better call here (big PLUS: it doesnt target, which is importnat when they have Lightning Greaves.
If there are many Affinity and MUD decks running around, I'd even splash W for StoP in MD and Serenity in SB.

pater
02-15-2011, 04:59 PM
Does anyone have any savage tricks with Rishadan Port? The only thing I got is tapping their land during their upkeep to keep them from casting, and sometimes EoT to block removal. I think I'm missing the card's potential.

GoboLord
02-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Does anyone have any savage tricks with Rishadan Port? The only thing I got is tapping their land during their upkeep to keep them from casting, and sometimes EoT to block removal. I think I'm missing the card's potential.

Again: there's a passage in the primer about Port that might be helpful.
In general it serves the function of additional manadenial (along with Wasteland), especially if you want to keep you opp away from double W (Humility/Moat) or the 3rd mana in general (Firesput/E-Plague).
Port also nullifies your opp's manlands.

jrw1985
02-15-2011, 07:34 PM
Does anyone have any savage tricks with Rishadan Port? The only thing I got is tapping their land during their upkeep to keep them from casting, and sometimes EoT to block removal. I think I'm missing the card's potential.

When Porting an opponent that has a Sensei's Divining Top in play, tap down their land at the end of their draw step. That way they can't just use the land to spin the Top.

Tap manland blockers to get Lackey through. This wins games.

Tap fetchlands in their end-step (if you have nothing better to do) just to force them to make a decision over which land they're getting (dual or basic).

That's about all I got.

Arsenal
02-15-2011, 07:47 PM
Tap fetchlands in their end-step (if you have nothing better to do) just to force them to make a decision over which land they're getting (dual or basic).

Although very subtle, this is a pretty decent line of play, especially against blue players as it can potentially take away Top/Brainstorm lines of play.

Neuad
02-15-2011, 07:49 PM
If your worried about MUD/Affinity with it's recent changes. . .or maybe thats just how SCG Opens are. . . Look into Meltdown, or Null Rod.

Me and a friend ran near identical lists at SCG Open Indy, and he got lots of mileage out of Meltdown. Sadly I did not, but I didnt face affinity all day.

Null Rod is my new favorite.

Affinity Sideboard is
-4 Aether Vial
+3 Null Rod
+1 Pyrokinesis

Mull into two land, Null Rod if you're that worried. . .they literally cannot do ANYTHING. . cant tap their artifact lands for mana etc.

ScatmanX
02-15-2011, 08:51 PM
Does anyone have any savage tricks with Rishadan Port? The only thing I got is tapping their land during their upkeep to keep them from casting, and sometimes EoT to block removal. I think I'm missing the card's potential.
There's a nice trick when the opponent has a Top into play too.
Usually they want to pay one to see the top cards in their upkeep. And you want to tap a land. So what happens?
They ask you: "are you going to tap anything?"
What do you do?
Say: "no"
Then, you both move automatically to the Draw Phase, and he does not get the chance againt to use Top before the draw.

If he choses to use Top at his upkeep, you can, in response, tap another land.

Well, I think you got the picture...

EDIT: I guess it took me long enough to write this...

jrw1985
02-15-2011, 09:14 PM
There's a nice trick when the opponent has a Top into play too.
Usually they want to pay one to see the top cards in their upkeep. And you want to tap a land. So what happens?
They ask you: "are you going to tap anything?"
What do you do?
Say: "no"
Then, you both move automatically to the Draw Phase, and he does not get the chance againt to use Top before the draw.

If he choses to use Top at his upkeep, you can, in response, tap another land.

Well, I think you got the picture...

EDIT: I guess it took me long enough to write this...

Actually I really like your point. If your opponent asks you, "Are you tapping anything?" they've just passed priority. If you say "No" and they then spin their top before drawing, they've just picked up a game-loss for drawing cards they shouldn't have. It's probably not a move you'd like to make at your weekly card-shop tourny, but in a big event you might catch an inexperienced player doing this. More often though, it's just a good way to catch someone that's trying to bait you into wasting a Port activation.

Nelis
02-16-2011, 05:00 AM
If your worried about MUD/Affinity with it's recent changes. . .or maybe thats just how SCG Opens are. . . Look into Meltdown, or Null Rod.

Me and a friend ran near identical lists at SCG Open Indy, and he got lots of mileage out of Meltdown. Sadly I did not, but I didnt face affinity all day.


Why choose Meltdown over Shatterstorm? I always wonder about that (im not saying I am right). If you want to get rid of Frogmite you alone need 5 mana and that's not even considering Myr Enforcer. Or do you intend to play it in your turns 1-3 and basically get just rid of their manabase and some other small stuff?

Tom T
02-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Hey guys!

I've been out of these Goblin threads for a while and have been wondering about some artifact hate with the upcomming Affinity/MUD-decks.

While reading this I figured there are a few card choices which will have a possibility making SB-slots. To clarify the discussion a bit I'll list the options so people can point out the pros and cons per card.

1. Pulverize
Pros:
- Cast on turn2 at the earliest.
- Doesn't cost any mana
- Doesn't target
- Sweeps the entire board
- Not vulnerable to removal, only to counter
Cons:
- Requires 2 mountains
- Sets you back 2 mountains, which may cause manascrew
- Sorcery speed
- It sweeps just once
- If countered, you get 3 for 1'd (or 3 for 2'd via FoW)

2. Shatterstorm
Pros:
- Doesn't target
- Sweeps the entire board
- Not vulnerable to removal, only to counter
Cons:
- Cast on turn4 at the earliest.
- Takes up 4 mana
- Sorcery speed
- It sweeps just once

3. Meltdown
Pros:
- Doesn't target
- Sweeps artifact-lands + Ornithopters & Memnites + Moxen for 1 red mana
- When cast for R it doesn't affect your AEther Vial
- Not vulnerable to removal, only to counter
Cons:
- Takes up a lot of mana to sweep the entire board
- Sorcery speed
- It sweeps just once

4. Null Rod
Pros:
- Doesn't target
- Nullifies all activated abbilities of artifacts (and artifact land. Thanks Neuad ;))
- Doesn't require red mana
- Has a lasting effect
- Works against ANT as well
Cons:
- Is vulnerable to removal
- Sorcery speed
- It only deals with activated abbilities, not with other problems

I think Pulverize and Null Rod are the best answers we can have against Affinity and MUD.
Let's discuss!

EDIT:
The primer is great btw! Thanks Gobolord & friends for the effort.
At the end of the former Goblin thread a guy (thought it was Nameless Two) posted a lot of possible 'Turn3 Kills' of the deck. I've heard many Goblin-players aren't familar with those possible turn3 kills and will underestimate them (especially thoe without Goblin Lackey).
Maybe you could put them in the primer with a spoiler tag on it (for saving space)?

Neuad
02-16-2011, 02:21 PM
Keep in mind Null Rod shuts down all artifact lands too. . .so if you go land lackey go, they go artifact land 0/2 0/2 1/1 Springleaf Opal go. . .then you go Null Rod go....all their mana is shut off. . .

GoboLord
02-16-2011, 03:06 PM
Goblin Lackey
Mountain, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page306).

@ Tom T: I don't know how that Tag-thing works but I did mention the turn-3-kills - just try the link ;-)

Hof
02-16-2011, 05:21 PM
My opinion on Artifact hate (in addition to maindeck Tinkerer):

- Shatterstorm is probably not a good idea, since 4 mana is generally too much for a non-Goblin. When you can cast it, it will often be too late.
- Null Rod seems weak since we need to be able to do more than shutting down mana sources (and all our own Vials) by turn 2.
- Pulverize is a promising option. I am worried about the cost. Losing 2 mountains + any Vials makes it a bit conditional.
- Rack and Ruin: Used to be a favorite of mine when T1 was dominated by Stax. I would play this over Shatterstorm, for sure.
- Meltdown: Flexible and strong against Affinity, a bad matchup for Goblins. Can't take out big artifacts, though.
- Shattering Spree: A bit mana intensive maybe, but three permanents for a card and RRR should be decent enough. Spree is probably what I would go with in an unfamiliar meta ot when expecting some mix of Affinity/Stax/Mud decks.

Nelis
02-17-2011, 04:28 AM
My opinion on Artifact hate (in addition to maindeck Tinkerer):

- Shatterstorm is probably not a good idea, since 4 mana is generally too much for a non-Goblin. When you can cast it, it will often be too late.
- Meltdown: Flexible and strong against Affinity, a bad matchup for Goblins. Can't take out big artifacts, though.


I still don't see why Meltdown would be better than Shatterstorm vs Afinity. You'd be in the control role anyway so going to turn 4 shouldn't be that hard. The only thing you don't really want to see is Ornithopter with Plating since its hard to block but Ornithopters are more and more being replaced by Memnites. By turn 4 their hand is usually completely depleted so a Shatterstorm is utterly devastating and like said before it also takes care of affinities 'big' problem creatures.

Mystical_Jackass
02-17-2011, 12:55 PM
Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.

Nidd
02-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.
No and none. That card is highly situational and not worth the risk.

ScatmanX
02-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.
Wow... Never thought about this. It may actually fit...
Someone please do some testings! I tight this month...

Nidd
02-17-2011, 01:10 PM
Wow... Never thought about this. It may actually fit...
Someone please do some testings! I tight this month...
Adding this card means pulling the Ports. I doubt this is the correct move.

ScatmanX
02-17-2011, 01:40 PM
Adding this card means pulling the Ports. I doubt this is the correct move.
There are people that don't like Port (not me). So maybe someone could use this.
This can definitely enter my "goblin burn" list, that didn't have Port neither Waste.
I don't know... maybe it can fit somewhere.

pryite199
02-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Considering we don't have ports on MTGO so contested war zone might be useful for those of us that play there.

Nelis
02-18-2011, 02:37 AM
Considering we don't have ports on MTGO so contested war zone might be useful for those of us that play there.

You're probably better off just to run blood moons and not other nonbasics other than wasteland. (or dont you have them either on mtgo?)

Humphrey
02-18-2011, 06:15 AM
I havent played against MUD yet, but from my Extended experiences, turn4 Shatterstorm wrecks Affinity. Considering MUD runs Trinisphere and Chalice you dont want to play hate thats cc<3
Id probalby run Shatterstorm, but to be honest ive no idea what to cut, maybe Pithing Needles.

Nessaja
02-18-2011, 06:37 AM
In my opinion of the whole R/G vs R/B debate i asked Patrick Chapman when i was at the San Jose Legacy open and asked him about which splash he thought was better overall and he asked me back what lands were i running? It was 5 mountains and 2 taigas with 8 fetches 4 wasteland/ports and he said why don't you take 2 mountains out and put two badlands in and run both splashes? What deck do you really need 5 basics against he asked me? I thought about it and honestly IMO he makes a good point.
I think brings up a good point that hasn't got enough attention. But a few things;

- A green splash requires way less devotion to it then a black splash, due to the nature of the cards. For a black splash you need a black mana source turn 2, for a green splash you need a green mana source much later in the game. When you go to the sideboard you often need a black mana as soon as turn 1.
- As Humphrey said as well, low basics can hurt the deck, especially because it's so mana hungry, there are decks where you need to play control against.

In general the primer could use some information about what splash to pick (or not splash at all).

GoboLord
02-18-2011, 07:16 AM
I think brings up a good point that hasn't got enough attention. But a few things;

- A green splash requires way less devotion to it then a black splash, due to the nature of the cards. For a black splash you need a black mana source turn 2, for a green splash you need a green mana source much later in the game. When you go to the sideboard you often need a black mana as soon as turn 1.
- As Humphrey said as well, low basics can hurt the deck, especially because it's so mana hungry, there are decks where you need to play control against.

In general the primer could use some information about what splash to pick (or not splash at all).

Why should the primer give information about which splash to pick when it already informas about what cards to pick?
Prbably the best way on building the deck is to first check out the cards you want to have in MD and SB and THEN design your manabase. It doesn't make sense to first choose a splash an then think about the cards that splash gives us - we should do it the other way round. Therefore I don't find information about splashes very useful.

@ topic: The number of nonbasics you want to have is highly dependend on the decks you expect in your meta. i.e. If you are expecting many Threshold, Goblin, Merfolk and Aggro Loam its a really bad idea to run only few basic lands. In a more control/combo-meta (without manadenial - thats the point here) you can however do fine with both splashes. and even 8 manadenial.

ScatmanX
02-18-2011, 07:33 AM
@ topic: The number of nonbasics you want to have is highly dependend on the decks you expect in your meta. i.e. If you are expecting many Threshold, Goblin, Merfolk and Aggro Loam its a really bad idea to run only few basic lands. In a more control/combo-meta (without manadenial - thats the point here) you can however do fine with both splashes. and even 8 manadenial.
This is true.
Also, I don't like running myself less than 5 basics. Having only 2-3 have lost me many games against Merfolk, Loam, decks with Back to Basics...
If I wanted to run Rbg goblins, with 23 lands, I'd do: 5 Basics, 2 Taiga, 2 Badlands, 7 Fetches, 4 Waste, 3 Port.
But hen again, if the B splash was heavier (Weirding, Wort, Earwig, with Perish and grave hate/cabal Therapy sb...), I'd consider cutting more Ports...

Nessaja
02-18-2011, 07:52 AM
Why should the primer give information about which splash to pick when it already informas about what cards to pick?
Alright, but the primer doesn't give information on why to pick cards over others either, it comes down to the same thing.


Prbably the best way on building the deck is to first check out the cards you want to have in MD and SB and THEN design your manabase. It doesn't make sense to first choose a splash an then think about the cards that splash gives us - we should do it the other way round. Therefore I don't find information about splashes very useful.
Because the splashes all of very distinct advantages over the other? "What color to splash for what meta" - or if you prefer "what combination of cards to choose for your free spots in a specific meta" (which is more or less the same, anyway) greatly differs depending on meta. Picking the right combination of cards is always the most important part of preparing for a tournament and the splashes are very geared towards specific metas.

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not bashing your primer. But there's a big difference between explaining what a card does and explaining why you should use a card in a certain situation or a certain metagame. Just giving suggestions here. The part that is missing for me is the actual construction of a Goblins deck.

Anyway, to be honest, I think that filling the last few spots is a really hard question to answer for Goblin players. If you really start to dig deep into the implications of splashing, manabase and what weaknesses get exposed to by splashing (or not splashing) you got a set of pretty complex questions to answer prior to the tournament, it more or less determines the outcome already.

Just an example; splashing black:

Splashing black means that you're setting yourself up against combo decks and decks with few creatures with high toughness. (that doesn't mean that you're cold to other type of decks, you're just making an extra investment in this specific area). A card like Warren's Weirding is there to battle against opponents that use relatively few creatures; think of Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Rhox Warmonk (and to a lesser extent, Emrakul, Dreadnought). And fighting combo through Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy. Because of these implications you'll need access to a black mana source relatively early, meaning that you need a higher density of black mana sources which might cause you to lose some power in the mana disruption area (Rishadan Port), to use your black splash the most effectively.

What I'm saying is, you're not splashing black because Warren's Weirding is a better card then Stingscourger, you're doing it specifically because you want to deal with threats that Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator can't deal with. Likewise, you're also making the choice of not being able to deal with enchantments when you're chosing the black splash. Lots of similar things happen when you're chosing to double splash or not splash at all. And as I said, I think it's the most important part of constructing a goblin deck.

Lets take a hypothetical meta of only tempo decks. What's your landbase when you require a black splash? What changes to this exact manabase when you're expecting no tempo decks at all but instead control decks and aggro control decks? I got an answer in my head; but I can't read that from the primer. Perhaps you don't want to hold the hand of new players quite that much, and if you don't that's fine, I'm just saying that I would include it in a primer.

jrw1985
02-18-2011, 12:22 PM
I thought I'd post a link to a tournament report where a rogue deck took 2nd out of a field of 90.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19985-2nd-at-Juniper-Lotus-event-with-Turbo-Drazi-for-a-Mox-Feb-12-2011

Aside from the fact that the amount of bitching going on in the thread is hilarious, it's also important to recognize that well built decks that you've never heard of can actually beat you in large tournaments.

From what I've read, this deck looks pretty susceptible to Goblins. Waste and Port seem very good since this deck plays a slow control game before blowing the game out with Eldrazi. Attacking the Locus lands and Candelabra (through either Pithing Needle or artifact hate) should shut down the mana acceleration this deck requires to win. Also, Chalice at 1 shuts down 18 MD spells.

Justin
02-18-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm weighing in kind of late here, but it would be useful to talk a bit about which cards to de-sideboard. It's usually easy to figure out which sb cards to bring in, but how does one de-sideboard and keep the deck as strong as possible? Some decisions are obvious, such as taking out creature removal against decks that don't run creatures. Other decision are more difficult. For example, it may not be obvious to some goblin players that they should side out piledrivers in a lot of matchups in which you are playing the control role (Zoo, Sligh, etc.). Mogg War Marshall is often a good choice to side out when you are the beatdown to make room for your sb hate.

Knowing how to properly de-sideboard and have the correct deck for games 2-3 of your matches is crucial to having success with Goblins. Does anyone else have any sb tips that maybe are not obvious to the average goblin player? Are there certain cards that you never sideboard out?

GoboLord
02-18-2011, 05:12 PM
Alright, but the primer doesn't give information on why to pick cards over others either, it comes down to the same thing.


Because the splashes all of very distinct advantages over the other? "What color to splash for what meta" - or if you prefer "what combination of cards to choose for your free spots in a specific meta" (which is more or less the same, anyway) greatly differs depending on meta. Picking the right combination of cards is always the most important part of preparing for a tournament and the splashes are very geared towards specific metas.

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not bashing your primer. But there's a big difference between explaining what a card does and explaining why you should use a card in a certain situation or a certain metagame. Just giving suggestions here. The part that is missing for me is the actual construction of a Goblins deck.

Anyway, to be honest, I think that filling the last few spots is a really hard question to answer for Goblin players. If you really start to dig deep into the implications of splashing, manabase and what weaknesses get exposed to by splashing (or not splashing) you got a set of pretty complex questions to answer prior to the tournament, it more or less determines the outcome already.

Just an example; splashing black:

Splashing black means that you're setting yourself up against combo decks and decks with few creatures with high toughness. (that doesn't mean that you're cold to other type of decks, you're just making an extra investment in this specific area). A card like Warren's Weirding is there to battle against opponents that use relatively few creatures; think of Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Rhox Warmonk (and to a lesser extent, Emrakul, Dreadnought). And fighting combo through Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy. Because of these implications you'll need access to a black mana source relatively early, meaning that you need a higher density of black mana sources which might cause you to lose some power in the mana disruption area (Rishadan Port), to use your black splash the most effectively.

What I'm saying is, you're not splashing black because Warren's Weirding is a better card then Stingscourger, you're doing it specifically because you want to deal with threats that Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator can't deal with. Likewise, you're also making the choice of not being able to deal with enchantments when you're chosing the black splash. Lots of similar things happen when you're chosing to double splash or not splash at all. And as I said, I think it's the most important part of constructing a goblin deck.

Lets take a hypothetical meta of only tempo decks. What's your landbase when you require a black splash? What changes to this exact manabase when you're expecting no tempo decks at all but instead control decks and aggro control decks? I got an answer in my head; but I can't read that from the primer. Perhaps you don't want to hold the hand of new players quite that much, and if you don't that's fine, I'm just saying that I would include it in a primer.

First of all: I'm not getting you wrong. I do understand the purpose of writing about splashes and their PROs and CONs in some meta and the other. Still I'm not willing to do it for the following reasons:
Splashing has to do not only with meta but also with liking some card more than the other, with experience, with the availabilty of dual-lands, well...you see with many many factors.
If I want to write about something, I want to do it thoroughly and complete. This is hardly possible, because the preparation for meta-games itself is a very vague undertaking.
Plus, deckconstruction is a process that involves creativity a good gut-feeling and a lot of testing (in short: thinking). This is something I cannot put in words - I don't want to do the thinking for you guys (and I can't because I'm not omniscient).

No offense intended, but: If you feel like this part is really missing you can even write it and send me via PM. I will include it in the primer with (quote=Nessaja)...(/quote). Even FoulQ wrote about splashing-vs-not-splashing in his primer and he did exactly what I did: elaborating on card choices.

En fin: I dont want to offend you and I'm very glad that you read my primer carefully. I'm very glad for constructive comments like yours - I just want to make my point clear because this is actually not my primer but our primer.

Pinoy Goblin
02-21-2011, 10:07 PM
Guys me and my friend are testing Foodchain in a straight forward agro built gobs deck without vials all I can say that this build is incredibly faster than vial gobs but in the midgame if I survive its alpha strikes I usually won the matches :tongue:

Heres the list:
//Lands [21]
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstaine Miire
7 Mountains

//Core [24]:
3 Food Chain
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Others [15]:
4 Gempahalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror beaker
1 Lightning Crafter

Humphrey
02-21-2011, 10:58 PM
why running instigator over mwm, he produces insane mana with chain. i would also drop 2 lands for 4th sss and chain.

Tom T
02-22-2011, 05:34 AM
Hey guys!

Does anyone have an idea for sideboard options against Dark Horizons for the mono red build.

Thanks,
Tom

Zork
02-22-2011, 06:40 AM
When I tested food chain gobs, I found myself in love with Lightning Crafter and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker for the "oops I win" factor of infinite comboing out. Skirk Prospector also helped with this, while turning some gobs into real mana mid-combo if necessary.

ScatmanX
02-22-2011, 08:11 AM
Guys me and my friend are testing Foodchain in a straight forward agro built gobs deck without vials all I can say that this build is incredibly faster than vial gobs but in the midgame if I survive its alpha strikes I usually won the matches :tongue:
There is a thread for this on the N&D: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12248-[Deck]-Goblin-Champions&highlight=goblin+champions
We have developed the deck quite a bit, and it is indeed much faster than Vial Goblins, and better against Combo, but is way more inconsistent...
Someday I'll get back on it I guess, since it is incredibly fun to kill your opponent T2 under a Trinisphere =D

GoboLord
02-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Hey guys!

Does anyone have an idea for sideboard options against Dark Horizons for the mono red build.

Thanks,
Tom

Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Relic of Progenitus

Kha
02-22-2011, 07:23 PM
Has anyone tried bonehoard in their sideboard yet?

It seems like it would help the attrition plan against other creature decks (zoo, new horizons etc), whilst also giving you a resilient threat against control.

LostButSeeking
02-22-2011, 08:40 PM
Has anyone tried bonehoard in their sideboard yet?

It seems like it would help the attrition plan against other creature decks (zoo, new horizons etc), whilst also giving you a resilient threat against control.

I'm usually in favor of testing rather than sumarily dismissing things, but four mana for a nongoblin that can't be played with via seems really bad.

Vandalize
02-25-2011, 11:12 AM
Hey there!

Taking back the old and heavily discussed topic about Graveyard Hate. I won't last long, just a brief comment about something that happened to me in a game.

I was using this sideboard:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Back to Nature
1 Stingscourger
1 Relic of Progenitus

Yeah, faerie macabre is simply amusing... I was playing a really slow role against a UGB Rock, and lategame I was with the board almost done (I had like a MWM and a token) and he had a Gatekeeper of Malakir. I had 2 Vials (one @3 and one @4). And my topdecks were basically lands and other useless stuff. My foe's life was at 4 and I was at 6 or 7.

Ok, seems like a common matchup, where both runs are in a topdeck war to get some threat... But my threat was really, really scary: a 2/2 Flying Faerie came from the depths of hell to be vialed in and swing twice, while his Gatekeeper couldn't do anything but watching it fly over his head.

Yeah, I don't remember exactly why I sided in Faerie Macabre against UGB Rock but it was freaking awsome to beat with it.

Since then, it has taken 2 slots in my sideboard.

Ok, it's a weird stupid story. But indeed, Faerie Macabre is really effective against GY. Some people might say: oh, it's range is so awful! Only two cards... But it's pretty fine against Dredge, since you can remove their bridges with Skirk Prospector, MWM, Stingscourger, and still remove 2 Ichorids from GY and blow their board advantage. Or you can remove an Ancestor's Chosen, before they can DR it.

Well, they've replaced those old fashioned Tormod's Crypt, who haven't been scarying people for a long time.

GoboLord
02-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Hey there!

Taking back the old and heavily discussed topic about Graveyard Hate. I won't last long, just a brief comment about something that happened to me in a game.

I was using this sideboard:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Back to Nature
1 Stingscourger
1 Relic of Progenitus

Yeah, faerie macabre is simply amusing... I was playing a really slow role against a UGB Rock, and lategame I was with the board almost done (I had like a MWM and a token) and he had a Gatekeeper of Malakir. I had 2 Vials (one @3 and one @4). And my topdecks were basically lands and other useless stuff. My foe's life was at 4 and I was at 6 or 7.

Ok, seems like a common matchup, where both runs are in a topdeck war to get some threat... But my threat was really, really scary: a 2/2 Flying Faerie came from the depths of hell to be vialed in and swing twice, while his Gatekeeper couldn't do anything but watching it fly over his head.

Yeah, I don't remember exactly why I sided in Faerie Macabre against UGB Rock but it was freaking awsome to beat with it.

Since then, it has taken 2 slots in my sideboard.

Ok, it's a weird stupid story. But indeed, Faerie Macabre is really effective against GY. Some people might say: oh, it's range is so awful! Only two cards... But it's pretty fine against Dredge, since you can remove their bridges with Skirk Prospector, MWM, Stingscourger, and still remove 2 Ichorids from GY and blow their board advantage. Or you can remove an Ancestor's Chosen, before they can DR it.

Well, they've replaced those old fashioned Tormod's Crypt, who haven't been scarying people for a long time.

Ok, I see your point with Faarie Macabre (and I don't find your story stupid; it exactly illustrates it's strength and weaknesses).
I don't agree with you on Tormod's Crypt. Why do you think it doesn't scare anyone? I find it pretty impressive against all Loam-strategies (including Lands.dec), Dredge and ANT (against IGGY and C. Rit.).

Lejay
02-25-2011, 12:43 PM
I don't have any room for faerie macabre (although I like it) but it's worth noting it is a rogue and therefore you can prowl an earwig squad with it.

jrw1985
02-25-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't have any room for faerie macabre (although I like it) but it's worth noting it is a rogue and therefore you can prowl an earwig squad with it.

Well kiss my grits, I hadn't noticced that. Faerie is pretty good. I too have used it to end a long and drawn out game where my opponent was sitting back on 4 life and a Goyf while I had a Matron and Tinkerer in play. Along came Faerie, flying over for the win. Good times.

aTn
02-26-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm thinking of playing rb Goblins tomorrow at a local tournament.

I've been on a hiatus from Legacy for a couple of months (following GP Columbus), so I'm picking up a deck I know fairly well.

Anyhow, I'm thinking of the following SB, but by no means am I aware of recent metagame changes.

3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 CotV
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Perish

What do you think of it ?

GoboLord
02-27-2011, 12:41 PM
Overall: very straight, very good.

But...

* ...I don't think you need 6 combo hate pieces (cause combo is IMO unlikely to show up in high numbers). Chalice is the more flexible choice for unknown meta, so you should do fine with 4 copies of it.
* ...I like Tuktuk Scrapper more than Tinkerer (unless you have multiple Chieftains)
* ...it's easier to comment on SBs when we can see the MD

Neuad
02-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Big tournement coming up at my local store, 15 Jaces total prize. (Broken down 4-3-2-2-1-1-1-1)

Here is the list I'm on right now

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
3 [ON] Mountain (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
2 [M11] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

Turn 2 Null Rod completely shuts down affinity, and I have problems with affinity.
KGrips for EPlagues and CB
Perish is obvious
Patriarchs Bidding for control and zoo.
Rest is obvious.

flrn
02-28-2011, 03:21 AM
I played Mono Red Goblins at a local tournament yesterday. This was the list that I played:

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Lightning Bolt

4 Aether Vial

14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

The guy, which gave me the deck couldn't find his fourth Pyrokinesis. Thats why I had a Chieftain in the board to have an additional Lord against Engineered Plague.

Round 1 against Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils

G1: He has the third turn kill.

-3 Lightning Bolt, -3 Gemplam Incinerator, -1 Goblin Chieftain, + 4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Blood Moon

G2: I keep a hand with Turn 3 Blood Moon and Turn 1 Lackey. He has Turn 2 Duress für my Moon, but i topdeck another one. A resolved Moon is kinda good against a manabase made off 10 Fetchies, 6 Duals and only 1 Basic Island. He can't recover from that one.

G3: I keep a hand with 2x Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void. I have Turn 1 Lackey and Chalice on 0. He fetched for Basic Island while i get a Turn 3 Moon online. End of Turn he bounce's my Chalice and goes for the kill, because he got his 1-off Petal as an initial Black Source. Bad Luck.

Round 2 against Deadguy Ale

G1: He lands a turn 2 Dark Confidant, which flips a Swamp in the first Upkeep, a Shriekmaw and then a Tombstalker. Nevertheless i had so many guys, that he couldn't do shit about it.

-3 Lightning Bolt, +3 Pyrokinesis

G2: I keep a slow hand and every single on of my threats eats a removal.

G3: His removal can't handle the amount of guys i throw on the board. Easy win.

Round 3 against TES

G1: He has the second Turn Kill.

-3 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Goblin Chieftain, +4 Chalice of the Void

G2: After a Mulligan I got the following six cards: Mountain, Rishadan Port, Chalice of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Aether Vial, Goblin Warchief. I lead off with Mountain, Vial, Chalice 0. He had the turn 1 Kill, but Chalice 0 kept him from going off. I put a Chalice on 1 in my second Turn. He plays Burning Wish for Shattering Spree. In his next turn he finds his third land, but my Rishadan Port keeps tapping his City of Brass in his upkeep, so he never gets to 3 Mana to blow up my whole defense.

G3: I open up the following Hand: Lackey, Vial, Vial, Port, Port, Mountain, Mountain. I thought some time about sending that hand to Paris, but then decided to keep it. If i have a chance to attack his manabase with my ports, I propably can get a win here. Long story in short. His first two cantrips doesn't find any business spell and it comes down to the following situation. My board consists of Lackey, Ringleader, Warchief, 3x Port, 2x Mountain and a Vial with one counter (I missed one Upkeep trigger earlier). My opponent is on 15 Life. I go into my turn and again i forgot to add a counter to my Vial. I topdeck a Siege-Gang Commander and play him. My teams swings for 10 damage. The Lackey Trigger puts a Matron into play, which fetches out a Skirk Prospector. I have no Mountain untapped, but luckily i forgot to turn up my Vial counters. I put Skirk Prospector via Vial into play and my one untapped Rishadan Port + my 8 Goblins are enough to shoot 6 Damage into his face via Siege-Gang.

Round 4 against Zoo

G1: I put lots of guys into play. His removal can't eat all of my guys and I win.

-3 Lightning Bolt, +3 Pyrokinesis

G2: I keep the following hand: Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, 3x Mountain. Too bad he has a removal for every guy I play.

G3: He goes down to 5 cards and i go down to 6 cards. I keep a one land hand with Vial and 4 guys. After some fights and some removal of him, it comes down to the following situation: He has 1 card in hand, 4 lands in play, a Steppe Lynx, a Tarmogoyf and a Lavamancer equipped with Basilisk Collar in play. In my graveyard are only creatures, so Goyf is a 1/2. He has no Fetchland. I have 5 Goblin Tokens in play, 5 Lands (2 of them are ports) and my hand consists of 2 Pyrokinesis. And that's where i fuck up badly twice. My opponent is on 10 Life. I'm on 14 Life. I pitch 1 Pyrokinesis to the other one and assign 2 damage to Goyf, 1 to Lavamancer and 1 to Lynx. My opponent doesn't realize how bad I played that and responded to my Kenisis with a Path to Exile on one of my tokens. His Goyf survives. The other 4 Tokens come in for 4 Damage. In his next turn i forgot to tap down his mana with my ports and he topdecks a Bloodbraid Elf. His Elf reveals 3 turns of bad topdecks and then a Lightning Bolt, which shoots down one of my tokens. After that i topdeck 4 Mountains in a row and my opponent beats me down.

The deck performed very well. The only change i consider is to add a Stingscourger as a tutor target for the Matron in place of one of the Piledriver's. Mogg War Marshal is awesome! And naturally it should be 4 Pyrokenisis in the board instead of the Chieftain. The Chieftain in the board did nothing all day long. I'f i had just assigned 3 damage to the goyf and 1 to the Lavamancer in the third game of Round 4, going along with tapping down his mana in his upkeep in the following turns, I'm sure I would have won that game. But i pushed my luck badly that day, so I'm fine with that. I had 3 bad matchups in four rounds and ended up going 2:2.

bakofried
02-28-2011, 03:29 AM
I think this was brought up before, but why do you have Lightning Bolts in the main (typically there to help against Zoo) and then...board them out against Zoo?

Amon Amarth
02-28-2011, 06:26 AM
I'm guessing he wanted to keep his Goblin count high enough to make Ringleader good. I probably would have boarded out 3 Piledrivers for the 3 'kinesis. 28 Goblins still seems good enough.

Nelis
02-28-2011, 06:38 AM
I think this was brought up before, but why do you have Lightning Bolts in the main (typically there to help against Zoo) and then...board them out against Zoo?

I asked the same thing before.


I'm guessing he wanted to keep his Goblin count high enough to make Ringleader good. I probably would have boarded out 3 Piledrivers for the 3 'kinesis. 28 Goblins still seems good enough.

That means there's absolutely no reason to run Lightning Bolts at all in the main deck. I'm very interested in why the bolts are actually put in. What are the used for if its not the Zoo match-up. Hopefully FLRN can tell us why.

GoboLord
02-28-2011, 07:21 AM
ScatmanX and me have been testing and advocating Lightnig Bolts ever since, so I think I can tell you why.

IMO Goblins don't much GOOD removal available.
Gempalm Incinerator isn't nessecarily a 4-of but most often a 3-of. That leaves 3-5 removal-slots unoccupied (cause generally run 6-8).
As FLRN stated in his report a Stingscourger should be played as a 1-of in MD.
What is left now? Warren Weirding? Lightning Bolt?
I think the next best removal here is Lightning Bolt.
* it costs only 1 mana
* it's red
* it's an instant
* it targets a creature of your choice (seriously, how many creatures we want to get rid of have shroud)
and most importantly:
* it's not a tribal sorcery (yes, I'm looking at you Tarmogoyf)

Lightning Bolt kills the most common creatures that we find in legacy:
Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Tarmogoyf, Lavamancer, every Cat, every Fish, the singleton token that was left behind for defense, Vampire Nighthawk etc.

I mean: if you really want to dealwith big creatures there is no point in removing them: just chumpblock with matron, Lackey, whatever. Against multiple fatties we have Perish available.

An alternative to L.Bolt might be Swords to Plowshares, but I see no point in running Warren Weirding unless your meta is flooded with Aggro Loam and Rock/Junk. (even in those metas I'd prefer Stingscourger because it has a body and can use AEther Vial).

Nelis
02-28-2011, 07:43 AM
I can imagine why one would want to put bolts in (I personally wouldn't, I'd rather go for Rb than put in Bolts) but if its taken out against the match up where it matters most (zoo) then I don't understand why he's running bolts. The other non-zoo creatures you mention (apart from maybe tarmo) can be taken care of with Gempalms (and additional cards in the sideboard). Those decks that might feature those cards aren't the fastest decks around so we have more time dealing with those creatures.

edit: if your metagame isnt good for goblins then don't play goblins. (If possible of course, I understand that not every one has multiple decks available)

GoboLord
02-28-2011, 07:50 AM
I imagine why one would want to put bolts in (I personally wouldn't, I'd rather go for Rb than put in Bolts) but if its taken out against the match up where it matters most (zoo) then I don't understand why he's running it. The other non-zoo creatures you mention (apart from maybe tarmo) can be taken care of with Gempalms. Those decks arent the fastest decks around so we have more time dealing with those creatures.

edit: if your metagame isnt good for goblins than don't play goblins. (If possible of course, I understand that not every one has multiple decks available)

Boarding out Bolts was a mistake, thats true.
The thing is: we may not play 8 gempalms, and even if it were so: gempalm needs creature in play (which we dont have from time to time)



edit: if your metagame isnt good for goblins then don't play goblins. (If possible of course, I understand that not every one has multiple decks available)
What does this have to do with removal-choice?

Nelis
02-28-2011, 08:33 AM
The thing is: we may not play 8 gempalms, and even if it were so: gempalm needs creature in play (which we dont have from time to time)

We also have Lackeys that count as 'removal' (as in has to be blocked) for cards like: Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Lavamancer and the singleton token that was left behind for defense.

Against decks that run Tarmogoyf, Fish and Vampire Nighthawk we have more time. Theres no need to remove them asap so we have time to get what we need.

Which leaves the decks with Cats and that's the deck thats hard to handle and where Gempalm usually not enough to hold them off.

I am all for my goblins doing the job for me. I basically believe that bolts aren't needed most times. So only when my little green men aren't enough I might consider them but only in my sideboard.

But I am in a luxurious position because I have access to a load of decks (as long as they don't require BU duals). So if the metagame isn't right for GobsIi can play something else. I own cards to play Aggro Loam, Fish, Gobs, Merf, UWT, Rock, Slivers, *****TreshTresh, BANT (without NOPRO), countertop. But I'm a aggro player at heart so thats what I prefer to play and I suck at playing combo and pure control.

No brag intended btw, well maybe a little bit :-)


Boarding out Bolts was a mistake, thats true.
The thing is: we may not play 8 gempalms, and even if it were so: gempalm needs creature in play (which we dont have from time to time)


What does this have to do with removal-choice?

Nothing really I kinda misread your post on loam and junk. But now that i think about it. I do think that if you need bolts as removal in goblins you're playing the wrong deck in a wrong metagame.

GoboLord
02-28-2011, 11:29 AM
But I am in a luxurious position because I have access to a load of decks (as long as they don't require BU duals). So if the metagame isn't right for GobsIi can play something else. I own cards to play Aggro Loam, Fish, Gobs, Merf, UWT, Rock, Slivers, *****TreshTresh, BANT (without NOPRO), countertop. But I'm a aggro player at heart so thats what I prefer to play and I suck at playing combo and pure control.

No brag intended btw, well maybe a little bit :-)
:eyebrow:
And I own Suzuki Intruder (http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Suzuki_C_1800_R_2008_06_1024x768.jpg) and still I'm playing Goblins with Lightning Bolt MD.
What's your point?



But now that i think about it. I do think that if you need bolts as removal in goblins you're playing the wrong deck in a wrong metagame.
Bolts are best against aggro-decks (and therefore a good choice in aggro-metas). Goblins perform best in Aggro/Control meta's.
What's your point?

flrn
02-28-2011, 12:13 PM
I think this was brought up before, but why do you have Lightning Bolts in the main (typically there to help against Zoo) and then...board them out against Zoo?


That means there's absolutely no reason to run Lightning Bolts at all in the main deck. I'm very interested in why the bolts are actually put in. What are the used for if its not the Zoo match-up. Hopefully FLRN can tell us why.

Well I have been playing storm combo, especially Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils for the past one and a half year. I have nearly no experience with goblins. I just wanted to try something new. That's why I borrowed the goblin deck from a mate. Lightning Bolt just seemed the best option to me as a removal in a mono-red shell. That's why I'm playing it. And it really helps connecting Lackey on turn two, because you always have that red mana avaiable. When you play Weirding, you need to meet two requirements to connect a Lackey on turn two against a creature-based deck. You need to have a black manasource and your opponent has only one creature. Especially on the draw, Bolt just seem's to be superior.


Boarding out Bolts was a mistake, thats true.

I'm kinda new to the deck and I just tried the things, which seemed to be alright for me. That's why I wrote down boarding plans. To tell the internet what I did, so they could tell me, what I did wrong.

Muradin
02-28-2011, 12:55 PM
:eyebrow:
And I own Suzuki Intruder (http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Suzuki_C_1800_R_2008_06_1024x768.jpg) and still I'm playing Goblins with Lightning Bolt MD.
What's your point?


That was really the only right way to respond to the other guy's post. You're awesome.

GoboLord
02-28-2011, 01:10 PM
I'm kinda new to the deck and I just tried the things, which seemed to be alright for me. That's why I wrote down boarding plans. To tell the internet what I did, so they could tell me, what I did wrong.
There is absolutely no point in making excuses for this choice.
There are MU in which you would board like this (Kinesis IN, Bolts OUT) because you don't want to cut creatures from MD (just like you said). This is true for MU in which creatures are especially valuable cause your opponent can't remove them (e.g. Merfolk).
So, your "mistake" wasn't a huge one, it's just that Piledriver is one of the weakest cards against against Zoo.

flrn
02-28-2011, 03:01 PM
There is absolutely no point in making excuses for this choice.
There are MU in which you would board like this (Kinesis IN, Bolts OUT) because you don't want to cut creatures from MD (just like you said). This is true for MU in which creatures are especially valuable cause your opponent can't remove them (e.g. Merfolk).
So, your "mistake" wasn't a huge one, it's just that Piledriver is one of the weakest cards against against Zoo.

After reading my post a mate asked me, what line of thought I used to determine to take out Lightning Bolt and I realized that I'm not used to play anything related to creature matchup's. As I stated earlier in this thread I have been playing Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils ever since Mystical Tutor got banned. And when you board with this deck, you really don't wanna touch your engine. For example, if I face a ***** Build with Spell Snare avaiable I board out Cabal Ritual's and board in Carpet of Flowers. Or when I play a blue deck in general I have seven protection piece's avaiable in my first 60 cards. When I bring in Xantid Swarm's to fight those decks I don't go up to eleven protection spells, because that would be way too much. You take out some other protection spells, which are weaker against the given matchup and bring in Xantid Swarms, because you think they work better in the given situation.

My point is, when i faced Zoo the most natural thing for me to do, was to take out the weaker removal spell, to bring in the better removal spell against the given deck. I realized too that Piledriver is not that good against Zoo in the postboard matchup's, even though my opponent had to make a bad trade in the third game due to an attacking Piledriver, but I didn't question my boarding plan, while playing the match. And in the end it didn't even matter, because I lost the game due to two stupid mistake's. I also realized after the match, that I did those mistake's, because I'm not used to fight creature fight's or remove the creature's my opponent controls, because I have no experience whatsoever in those kinda things. Tarmogoyf was the most irrelevant card, when I played tournament matches, as long as he didn't kill me.

I think it's really interesting to analyze those line of plays, when playing a completly different archetype. And I know one thing for sure. If I play another tournament with Goblin's, I won't make those mistake's again. And I think that is what you need to take from those tournament, if you wanna improve your own game.

pater
02-28-2011, 03:26 PM
I do think that if you need bolts as removal in goblins you're playing the wrong deck in a wrong metagame.
I agreed with everything you said up 'till this. I don't have the option of switching decks just because I saw a certain someone walk through the door. Personally, if you're willing to sit through a tourney, or even a match, you shouldn't be, for lack of a better word, "scared" of the metagame. It's just like every other deck; make good card choices, and play with a style that comforts you. Choosing Bolts over something else doesn't mean you've been forced into it because of the meta. Even in a meta where Goblins dominate, I bet people would still play Bolt here and there.

I've changed my removal package quite a bit over the last couple months, trying everything including Tarfire and Lightning Bolt. I'm currently settled on Warren's Weirding, which I know has it's pros and cons..

+ Tutor-able
+ Doesn't target
+ Synergy with Warchief/Ringleader/Piledriver
+ Turn 2 removal for alpha strike
- Sorcery speed
- Requires B
- 2cc
- Nullified in mirror match
- Diminishes against numerous enemies
- Boosts Goyf

Now, knowing all that, it stills takes priority over Bolt, because it is fitting to my play style. If I drop a Ringleader, and I pass a Lightning Bolt, I beat myself up over it, but here's another scenario. Just yesterday I was sitting across from a level 4 Coralhelm Commander with Jitte, a situation where Weirding helps, Bolt does not. There's plenty of times when you can be looking at a lone Iona, or Progenitus, or just a lone fatty in general, and that's when Weirding shines brightest. It's funny watching someone drop Iona naming red, just to get it sacrificed next turn.

If Bolt fits your play style, throw it in there, just be ready to see them go to the bottom of the library.
If Warren Weirding fits your play style, throw it in there, just be ready to drop crazy amounts of cash on Badlands. =)

Vandalize
02-28-2011, 04:56 PM
I think the major point of playing Lightning Bolt main deck is helping Lackey connect turn 2 (which is probably the classic best hypothesis for a goblin strategy). I'd say that 40~50% of the time, people won't let Lackey shine by trading a creature (if it's X/1) or just dropping a better toughness creature (the other 50~60% of times, Lackey just eat a Swords to Plowshares or another Bolt). It's also great when some unlucky T.E.S guy has to go low on Ad Nauseam (which shouldn't happen too often because they usually play Orim's Chant before going off). Well, Lightning Bolt will always be a broken card, since 3 damage for R is pretty much a classic good option for most metagames given.

Warren Weirding is losing it's power because creature based decks are becoming really popular (I'm talking about general random metagaming). Green and Taxes, GWb Rock, Merfolks, or any other Tempo decks are pretty popular. I don't find WW to be the best removal avaliable at the moment. Although, I really like those funny synergys that WW has with Mogg War Marshal.

Even in matches where WW is known to be awsome adapted to it. NO/PRO decks usually have that pesky little Goyf or even a Noble left to be sacrificed instead of the Fat Wurm. Iona from Reanimator might eat a WW, but Dredge's Iona will never be touched, there'll always be some tokens or even a Narcomoeba to be sacrificed.

In my opinion, the main reason to splash black today isn't WW, as it was in the early past. The most powerful cards black can give us now is Cabal Therapy and Perish.

Nelis
02-28-2011, 05:30 PM
I agreed with everything you said up 'till this. I don't have the option of switching decks just because I saw a certain someone walk through the door. Personally, if you're willing to sit through a tourney, or even a match, you shouldn't be, for lack of a better word, "scared" of the metagame. It's just like every other deck; make good card choices, and play with a style that comforts you. Choosing Bolts over something else doesn't mean you've been forced into it because of the meta. Even in a meta where Goblins dominate, I bet people would still play Bolt here and there.


I know not everyone has multiple decks to choose from, I mentioned this in one of my earlier posts. Im not going to say people shouldn't play bolts in their list. I just dont see enough reasons to play bolt myself unless a specific metagame might demand it.

But if that were the case I think its better (if one has the option) to play another deck. The point I am trying to make is that I'm not going to play Goblins if half the field is Zoo and other aggro.

And of course everybody should choose a deck that fits their play style. In my meta it would be best to play combo but I dont know how to play it properly so i wont pick up a combo deck myself.

GoboLord
02-28-2011, 05:36 PM
I agreed with everything you said up 'till this. I don't have the option of switching decks just because I saw a certain someone walk through the door. Personally, if you're willing to sit through a tourney, or even a match, you shouldn't be, for lack of a better word, "scared" of the metagame. It's just like every other deck; make good card choices, and play with a style that comforts you. Choosing Bolts over something else doesn't mean you've been forced into it because of the meta. Even in a meta where Goblins dominate, I bet people would still play Bolt here and there.

I've changed my removal package quite a bit over the last couple months, trying everything including Tarfire and Lightning Bolt. I'm currently settled on Warren's Weirding, which I know has it's pros and cons..

+ Tutor-able
+ Doesn't target
+ Synergy with Warchief/Ringleader/Piledriver
+ Turn 2 removal for alpha strike
- Sorcery speed
- Requires B
- 2cc
- Nullified in mirror match
- Diminishes against numerous enemies
- Boosts Goyf

Now, knowing all that, it stills takes priority over Bolt, because it is fitting to my play style. If I drop a Ringleader, and I pass a Lightning Bolt, I beat myself up over it, but here's another scenario. Just yesterday I was sitting across from a level 4 Coralhelm Commander with Jitte, a situation where Weirding helps, Bolt does not. There's plenty of times when you can be looking at a lone Iona, or Progenitus, or just a lone fatty in general, and that's when Weirding shines brightest. It's funny watching someone drop Iona naming red, just to get it sacrificed next turn.

If Bolt fits your play style, throw it in there, just be ready to see them go to the bottom of the library.
If Warren Weirding fits your play style, throw it in there, just be ready to drop crazy amounts of cash on Badlands. =)


Well, right now I'm testing a card similar to Bolt but just with better range: Swords to Plowshares. I wouldn't go for W splash just for StoP, but with recent developments in the metagame W provides good SB cards.
Here is my current list

//Lands [22]
6 Wasteland / Port
7 Fetchlands
6 Mountain
3 Plateau

//Core [25]
-1 Piledriver

//Others [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stingscourger

3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
Combo: 4 Chalice of the Void
Graveyard: 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus
Aggro: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Enchantment/Artifacts: 2 Disenchant, Serenity, 1 Goblin Tinkerer

The SB looks a bit like a random grasp into a box of Sideboard cards but has actzually some thought behind it (especially in configuration with MD)

Explanation:
IMO the current meta seems to bring (back) artifact-based deck like Affinity and MUD as well as some old-school aggro-decks like Goblins and Zoo. The rest is fairly unsure, therefore I want to bring flexibility to the deck.

* The removal package in MD is designed to beat Goblins and Zoo (StoP is just like Bolt good in dealing opponent's 1st-turn Lackeys). StoP is obviously the most flexible removal because it kills alsmost every creature (unless there's a Chalice @ 1 lying around)
* WI is mostly considered to catch removal that would otherwise target Chieftain, Piledriver and co. Chieftain and WI have a strong synergy and help us out in the mirror.
* -1 Piledriver, cause he's not the best card in aggro MUs (same is true for Rishadan Port)
* SB: generally I don't like to split up cards, but in an unknown meta it's probably a good idea. When running splits I try to use 1 slots for Goblins
* Serenity wins us the MUD and Affinity MU singlehandedly (and obviously Enchantress and Staxx), against those decks Disenchant is even better Vindicate with instant-speed.
* I like Tuktuk Scrapper more than Tinkerer, but with 7 hasters in MD Tinker should be given a try. He's also able to shatter MUD's and Affinity's manabase. The same is true for Sharpshooter: generally I's run the 4th Pyrokinesis but Chieftain make Sharpshooter and Tinkerer much better.

What do you think? I don't know how the MUD and Affinity MU should be played from Goblins perspective, but I guess this SB should make it possible to beat them.
What I don't see at the moment: What MU become worse with W splash? Or asked differntly: Why did we abbandon W splash?

Vandalize
02-28-2011, 07:43 PM
Rishadan Ports are good against MUD. Keeping them off Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors is pretty nice. If you can kill his early Metalworker and keep up the manadenial, you should be fine. Postboard things get better. They usually bring in some CotV, but Serenity rapes them, so does Shattering Spree, Meltdown, Pulverize...

Affinity is a really crappy matchup for RB Goblins because they are REALLY fast. White/Green splash should help in this MU also.

ScatmanX
03-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Back from a break while playing Standard.

On the subjects discussed:
- There is absolutely no problem on running Bolt MD. It's great against every single agroo MU. They still leave you with 29-30 goblins, with is just fine. And they should not be dropped for Knesis against Zoo. We should overwhelm them with our removal, then get ahead on card advantage.
- Faerie Macabre is a fine sb option.
- WW is good, but I don't think is the right choice for the meta. It is bad against Goblins and Merfolk (mainly due to Mutavault. (yes, I know, we have Wastes...)). Against Zoo, Bolt is better, because the majority of their damage, at least in my view, is done by an unanswered Nacatl, which Bolt takes care even on the draw.
- The W splash looks bad for me... I'd rather run green, with K.Grip on the side (due to all the CB, that I see around here at least, and the rise of MUD and the likes).

jrw1985
03-01-2011, 03:07 PM
On Lightning Bolt Vs Warren Weirding

Let there be no confusion, these cards serve very different purposes. While both can be played to get a T2 Lackey attack through, WW is the only option for taking out those big fatties, and it's tutorable, and it's Ringleaderiffic. If you run a Rb build there is no reason not to run at least 1 WW MD, even if you're running Bolt too.

Perish should be played now more than ever. With the introduction of Green Sun's Zenith Legacy is more green creature centric than ever before. It's just a stupid-good card for anyone running black without Goyf, so use it.

Onto a growing threat-
GBW Junk or Rock or Death and Taxes, whatever you want to call it, and BUG Control!

I haven't seen these decks discussed too much, but they are terrible MUs for Goblins. They run a shit-ton of discard (Thoughtseize, Hymns, Gerard's Verdict) plus creature removal (Vindicate, Edict, Innocent Blood) and worst of all they follow up their early game disruption with midgame Pernicious Deed. This is the single biggest beating they can throw at us. Cracking that deed will clear our board 95% of the time, leaving us with no Vials, no Lackeys, no Warchiefs, and just a few lands. These matches make me wish the SB had room for 4 Needles to drop against Deed, as their hand disruption clears out K-Grips (which are too slow anyway). And attacking their manabase isn't an effective response since these decks typically run Mox Diamond, making Wasteland awkward.

GoboLord
03-01-2011, 04:17 PM
On Lightning Bolt Vs Warren Weirding

Let there be no confusion, these cards serve very different purposes. While both can be played to get a T2 Lackey attack through, WW is the only option for taking out those big fatties, and it's tutorable, and it's Ringleaderiffic. If you run a Rb build there is no reason not to run at least 1 WW MD, even if you're running Bolt too.

Perish should be played now more than ever. With the introduction of Green Sun's Zenith Legacy is more green creature centric than ever before. It's just a stupid-good card for anyone running black without Goyf, so use it.

Onto a growing threat-
GBW Junk or Rock or Death and Taxes, whatever you want to call it, and BUG Control!

I haven't seen these decks discussed too much, but they are terrible MUs for Goblins. They run a shit-ton of discard (Thoughtseize, Hymns, Gerard's Verdict) plus creature removal (Vindicate, Edict, Innocent Blood) and worst of all they follow up their early game disruption with midgame Pernicious Deed. This is the single biggest beating they can throw at us. Cracking that deed will clear our board 95% of the time, leaving us with no Vials, no Lackeys, no Warchiefs, and just a few lands. These matches make me wish the SB had room for 4 Needles to drop against Deed, as their hand disruption clears out K-Grips (which are too slow anyway). And attacking their manabase isn't an effective response since these decks typically run Mox Diamond, making Wasteland awkward.

I don't agree with you that legacy is become more creature centric because of Green Sun's Zenith, I really don't see that coming. I'd say that we should stick to Pyrokinesis instead of Perish becaus it is just way more flexible (running both would overdo it).
However, the real problem about those decks you mentioned is that they run E-Plague and Jitte etc. and you can't handle them with B splash. I feel that artifact- and enchantment removal is needed more than ever. D'n'Taxes in particular rises and fals with it's artifacts (Equipments and Vials, sometime CoP: Red).
Right now I think B is the weakest splash-color just because it lacks flexibilty and privides us with nothing more than very special removal.

Apart from that:
I've been testing W splash (see list above)yesterday and today...Result: just awsome.
I didn't record all decks I was testing against but among those were: W Staxx, MUD, Affinity (lots of it), Ugr and UBw Countertop, Goblins, MBC, Team America (the winning list of SGC DC) and Zoo...I didn't lose a single match.

I can't say wether W or G splash is superior, Serenity was a real bomb against stax and Affinty. I liked StoP especially against Gobs and Team America (sided them out against MUD and both Countertop lists). I was actually testing StoP instead of Bolt and I think it's worth it!

anotherday
03-01-2011, 07:27 PM
(I normally don't post the same question on two separate sites, but Salvation isn't biting.)

Just a few questions regarding Counter-Top variants:
1) How negatively does an active Counter-Top work against goblins without Vial on the battlefield? Can you generally play around it?
2) Do they typically side out Counterbalance in games 2-3?

From what I've been hearing, it's supposed to be a slightly favorable matchup for goblins? How would/do you typically play against it? I'd especially appreciate input from players with experience in this matchup. The only reason I'm asking is because I'm just trying to debate whether Krosan Grip is worth the 3-4 SB spaces I devote to it because that's what they are there for. Split Second is very appealing, but 2G is a lot to ask for in goblins (at least IMO, and I run 24 lands), and I would much rather use Nature's Claim as my artifact/enchantment spot removal of choice.

Nameless Two
03-01-2011, 07:43 PM
The black splash provides something other than very special removal: a chance against combo decks. White and green have no real way of interacting with (storm) combo. Black can bring in cabal therapy/earwig squad/duress/thoughtseze/extirpate. I know, there is still Chalice of the Void against combo, but if they get to start they can use their first turn to set up the combo/find an answer to Chalice of the Void... and use their second turn to go off/again look for an answer.... before you can even cast the hate card...

So while white does give a great answer to artifacts and enchantments, it doesn't give you the anti-combo fighting options. Although I could see people running into a random Mana Tithe, and Silence could be practically a timewarp against combo in game 2... Hell, you could even run Ethersworn Cannonist and they'd go wth? (and then solve it with the same kind of hate they'd use against Chalice). Rule of Law could totally screw them over if you manage to bring it into play early as could the Leyline of Sanctity/Gilded Light. (Just because of the surprise, once they know about it they do have the hate required to stop it).

All in all I think black has the better odds against combo, white against the artifact abusing decks. Green has Krosan Grip which is just extremely awesome when you have to fight counterbalance a lot. And maindeck artifact removal options (which is very nice in a jitte-heavy environment).

But ehm that's just me...

GoboLord
03-02-2011, 02:44 AM
The black splash provides something other than very special removal: a chance against combo decks. White and green have no real way of interacting with (storm) combo. Black can bring in cabal therapy/earwig squad/duress/thoughtseze/extirpate. I know, there is still Chalice of the Void against combo, but if they get to start they can use their first turn to set up the combo/find an answer to Chalice of the Void... and use their second turn to go off/again look for an answer.... before you can even cast the hate card...

So while white does give a great answer to artifacts and enchantments, it doesn't give you the anti-combo fighting options. Although I could see people running into a random Mana Tithe, and Silence could be practically a timewarp against combo in game 2... Hell, you could even run Ethersworn Cannonist and they'd go wth? (and then solve it with the same kind of hate they'd use against Chalice). Rule of Law could totally screw them over if you manage to bring it into play early as could the Leyline of Sanctity/Gilded Light. (Just because of the surprise, once they know about it they do have the hate required to stop it).

All in all I think black has the better odds against combo, white against the artifact abusing decks. Green has Krosan Grip which is just extremely awesome when you have to fight counterbalance a lot. And maindeck artifact removal options (which is very nice in a jitte-heavy environment).

But ehm that's just me...

Well, you are right, my view was a bit too much black-and-white (hah, pun on words :-D)
B provides us with Discard and Extirpate as well as Earwig Squad, thus good solutions on fighting combo. HOwever, jrw1985 said that he expected the meta to be more creature centric (I agree with that), while I think that combo won't show up in high numbers. That's why we don't need the B splash - even without B we have 2 great cards to fight combo: Chalice and Mindbreak Trap


(I normally don't post the same question on two separate sites, but Salvation isn't biting.)

Just a few questions regarding Counter-Top variants:
1) How negatively does an active Counter-Top work against goblins without Vial on the battlefield? Can you generally play around it?
2) Do they typically side out Counterbalance in games 2-3?

From what I've been hearing, it's supposed to be a slightly favorable matchup for goblins? How would/do you typically play against it? I'd especially appreciate input from players with experience in this matchup. The only reason I'm asking is because I'm just trying to debate whether Krosan Grip is worth the 3-4 SB spaces I devote to it because that's what they are there for. Split Second is very appealing, but 2G is a lot to ask for in goblins (at least IMO, and I run 24 lands), and I would much rather use Nature's Claim as my artifact/enchantment spot removal of choice.

I'd say it depends on board position here: Let'S assume we don't have Vial from the start. Counterbalance isn't a problem as long as we have 2-3 creature in play (Lackey n particular cause he helps cheating other guys into play). If we are in this position our oponent should be busy with searching for answers like Firespout and Tarmogoyf, this in turn makes it hard to use Sensei's Divining Top more than once each turn. Without Top CB is nearly useless (but that's not only true for Goblins)
CB + Top can be extremely distrupting when our opp manged to clear the board and is clever enough to let cards with manacost 2 and 3 float in the top 3 cards.
However, this isn't happening too often since we have 8 cards that make CB nearly useless (Lackey, Vial).
I don't think there is a rule for sideboarding against Goblins. It depends on their SB. Friend of mine is playing Ugwr Countertop and he sides out balance if he's on the draw. (well he has 2 Grims, the 4th Firespout and 2 Needles in SB)



Back to the topic of W splash:
So far I didn't hear good arguments not to run W. Can someone please convince me that W isn't a good choice?

bakofried
03-02-2011, 02:50 AM
I'll probably play Rb once I get that 4th red fetch. It would be well suited to whatever the hell my meta is on any given day.

Nelis
03-02-2011, 04:30 AM
Back to the topic of W splash: So far I didn't hear good arguments not to run W. Can someone please convince me that W isn't a good choice?

I think Black or mono red are just better choices. I don't see how much more you would benefit from adding white opposed to black or just stay red.

The way I understand it is that you want to run white mainly for artifact removal. But red has enough options (the ones mentioned before) for that. Even better since Meltdown and Shatterstorm are able to destroy all artifacts at once. Serenity does the same thing but it needs to stick around for a turn. A lone Disenchant doesn't help you much either vs decks that run multiple enchantment and artifacts.

Serenity would help you mostly vs enchantress which, if the metagame is aggro, might be played more. I have no experience in the matchup but wouldn't black be a good choice either? Discard like Duress, Inquisition or Therapy. And black adds more benefits like Perish since most creatures (excluding Merfolk or Gobs) played in Legacy are still green. And weirding can take care of the creatures STP can't take care of like Emrakul and Progenitus.

Basically Im saying things we all know already but I believe those are good reasons for not running white.

GoboLord
03-02-2011, 06:18 AM
I think Black or mono red are just better choices. I don't see how much more you would benefit from adding white opposed to black or just stay red.

The way I understand it is that you want to run white mainly for artifact removal. But red has enough options (the ones mentioned before) for that. Even better since Meltdown and Shatterstorm are able to destroy all artifacts at once. Serenity does the same thing but it needs to stick around for a turn. A lone Disenchant doesn't help you much either vs decks that run multiple enchantment and artifacts.

Serenity would help you mostly vs enchantress which, if the metagame is aggro, might be played more. I have no experience in the matchup but wouldn't black be a good choice either? Discard like Duress, Inquisition or Therapy. And black adds more benefits like Perish since most creatures (excluding Merfolk or Gobs) played in Legacy are still green. And weirding can take care of the creatures STP can't take care of like Emrakul and Progenitus.

Basically Im saying things we all know already but I believe those are good reasons for not running white.

The reason I want to run W is that it provides us with cards that can destroy both artifact AND enchantments (leave alone StoP in MD, which is just great!).
If I wanted to aim at artifacts only, I'd run more Serenities. This might be an evenbetter idea than running Meltdown and Shatterstorm because their manacost are just too high for me.
E. Plague is still a problem for mono R and Rb. I dropped Rb (and thus discard in form of Cabal Therapy) because I think it just disrupts our aggro plan (Discard is really killer in early turn - unfortunately that's when we are busy with spamming creatures).

Regarding Emrakul and Progenitus: Progi has never been a threat for us in my eyes. Emrakul on the other hand (who reall IS a threat) can be dealt with more effectively by Stingscourger. Most often you see Emrakul enter the battlefield via Sneak Attack and/or Show & Tell. Against a sneak-attacking Emrakul we have Stinger as an answer via Vial (which Weirding can't) - while we have the chance of putting Matron and/or Stingscourger into play when our opponent plays Show and Tell (both of which ensure that Emrakul doesn't hit us next turn). Plus WW doesn't remove Emrakul and Progi entirely because of their reshuffle-trigger.

When we have hard times dealing with creature Pyrokinesis is IMO just as good as Perish. However, IMO sideboarding is not about dealing with creatures (sure we should spent 2-3 slots on extra removal) but mainly it's about dealing with combo, graveyards and stuff that kills us (like Moat, Humilty, Plague, Deeds, Jitte, Swords, etc.). Artifact and enchantment removal can even take the aggressive part of manadenial and shut down opponent's vials.

All in all: C. Therapy, Toughtseize, Perish and the like are toys - but what we need is tools.

Nelis
03-02-2011, 07:02 AM
The reason I want to run W is that it provides us with cards that can destroy both artifact AND enchantments (leave alone StoP in MD, which is just great!).
If I wanted to aim at artifacts only, I'd run more Serenities. This might be an evenbetter idea than running Meltdown and Shatterstorm because their manacost are just too high for me.
E. Plague is still a problem for mono R and Rb. I dropped Rb (and thus discard in form of Cabal Therapy) because I think it just disrupts our aggro plan (Discard is really killer in early turn - unfortunately that's when we are busy with spamming creatures).


I don't believe that the mana cost of Shatterstorm (and to lesser extent Meltdown) is too high at all. You'll be able to chump against Affinity block, especially in a build with MWM, until turn 4 and then destroy everything on their side of the battlefield and win. I really don't understand your fear for affinity even though it is a tough matchup. You only have to survive the first couple of turns and have shatterstorm do the rest.

Engineered Plague is indeed not a nice card. But first of all goblins has cards to deal with a single plague (Chieftain, that 3/4 guy). And secondly it's not that Engineered Plague is on the table turn one*. You have time to put down 1 or 2 creatures or vial, and depending on the build you can fuck with their mana base, and play disruption turn 2 or 3 (depending if they're on the play or not).

* there are exceptions of course like dark ritual (which isnt played that much anymore) into Plague, or a 2nd turn plague when your opponent is playing Mox Diamond but thats would just be bad luck.

If you are too busy putting out creatures the first two turns why do you consider Serenity an option vs Artifacts? Does not the same line of reasoning you use against discard apply? That means it wont come down before turn 3 either. So in case of the affinity match up it destroys their artifacts on turn 4 as well, but with a bigger chance of being destroyed since it has to survive a full turn (although I must admit it seems not that likely Affinity actually runs enchantment removal since its not in their colors).

To me the question is if there are enough troublesome enchantments that validates running enchantment removal? I'm not convinced myself. And I want to stress again that Serenity has to stay on the board for a full turn. To me thats a very big downside.



Regarding Emrakul and Progenitus: Progi has never been a threat for us in my eyes. Emrakul on the other hand (who reall IS a threat) can be dealt with more effectively by Stingscourger. Most often you see Emrakul enter the battlefield via Sneak Attack and/or Show & Tell. Against a sneak-attacking Emrakul we have Stinger as an answer via Vial (which Weirding can't) - while we have the chance of putting Matron and/or Stingscourger into play when our opponent plays Show and Tell (both of which ensure that Emrakul doesn't hit us next turn). Plus WW doesn't remove Emrakul and Progi entirely because of their reshuffle-trigger.

It depends greatly on the amount of Stingers one plays (I think most lists only run 1 or 2?) and if you're actually able to set one up with a matron. In any case when it comes to those creatures there's still no reason to choose white over mono red or even black (I would still leave in 1 Stingscourger in Rb). Although, now I come to think of it, Retribution of the Meek might be a very good alternative over Perish. It does get rid of all problem creatures Goblins has trouble dealing with when it comes to our usual removal (Gempalm, Bolt).

GoboLord
03-02-2011, 07:25 AM
Seriously, that's the kind of answer I needed, thank you!

On the first look I find Retribution of the Meek not too god, because (unlike Perish) Nacatl, Pridemages, Hierarchs and Warmonks will survive it. On the other hand it might be a very good solution on MUD beasts, Aggro Loam critters and Equipped D'n'Taxes guys.
I'll just try it out and let you know if it'S worth it.
Did you test it yourself?

//EDIT: the word "Meek" reminded me of Meekstone. What you you think? worth it?

Nelis
03-02-2011, 09:03 AM
No I didn't test Retribution of the Meek, I recently played it in EDH (commander), so it just came to mind when I wrote down my reply.

I'm generally a very conservative player so I don't test if I'm not convinced. Its not always a good thing, I know, but I do take other peoples experience (like yours) into account.

Basically I generally prefer to get rid of creatures immediately and Meekstone is only a semi-permanent solution because it still can be destroyed. And also, back in the day (before Legacy and before I was competitive in magic) I've had bad experiences with Meekstone as a solution to creatures, so that thought kinda stuck all those years. :-)

You probably realized from my earlier replies in this thread that I rather play general cards even if they're slightly less effective in specific cases than a specific card which better in those cases but less general in use.

arebennian
03-02-2011, 09:31 AM
I was actually thinking about Meekstone just the other day. It screws over pretty much every deck that has creatures and sees play... except for goblins.
It also stops Progenitus and, if your lucky, Emrakul.

I guess the question is if Goblins actually need that much help against against creature decks that wouldn't be served better by adding removal?

GoboLord
03-02-2011, 09:47 AM
I guess Meekstone was a bad idea. WIth Meekstone in play our opponents creatures won't attack anymore and just stand in the way. This is bad, because we often profit from situations in which our opponents attacks and leaves few blockers behind.
Still I'll stick to testing Retribuition of the Meek.

Vandalize
03-02-2011, 10:10 AM
Haha, what about Shrieking Mogg with Meekstone? Seems to be a good solution, but it's kind of weird combo. Meekstone also reduces Goblin Chieftain's power, because pumped Warchiefs and Ringleaders won't untap.

Another thing: If we want to speed up goblins alphastrike, can we just throw some Goblin Grenades instead of Lightning Bolts? ( was playing Pauper goblins and just remembered this card :O)
Well, as its name just says, it's a real bomb, but at sorcery speed, is it a good option to finish those last 5 lifepoints?

Any ideas?

daPaule
03-02-2011, 12:18 PM
If they would reprint Goblin Grenade with it being a Tribal Sorcery - Goblin I would surely play some.

My first build was playing them as a 2of, not that bad but in what matchups do you really want to see them?
Getting it countered is a 2-1 trade, 2-2 if they FoW it. I guess you can try it in a 4 War Marshall build so the disadvantage is reduced.

Also it doesn't open a path in the first attack phase with a lackey, so I don't think you can just replace the bolts some are playing with grenades.

dysent
03-02-2011, 07:50 PM
If you're running the white splash, you can sb orim's chant. Granted, cabal therapy is generally better against combo (more resilient to discard, more proactive).

If they get a well protected hand with a fast combo, you'll lose either way, but chant can shut them down midcombo if they try to go off unprotected. (or buy you a turn in response to their chant). Unlikely also but the kicker can stall an ETW win to let you fish a solution up.
I wouldn't run it instead of CoTV since it requires you to leave mana open early, but 1-3xchant might not be a bad secondary solution if you're into dedicating that much space to stopping combo. (but if you have that much combo, maybe just don't play goblins? =D )

GoboLord
03-03-2011, 02:25 AM
B provides us with Discard and Extirpate as well as Earwig Squad, thus good solutions on fighting combo. HOwever, jrw1985 said that he expected the meta to be more creature centric (I agree with that), while I think that combo won't show up in high numbers. That's why we don't need the B splash - even without B we have 2 great cards to fight combo: Chalice and Mindbreak Trap

bakofried
03-03-2011, 02:40 AM
Well, it's always been my impression that Goblins - whatever the splash - does well when paired up against other, aggressive decks. However, the typical failing of Goblins is when fighting either Combo or Board-Control based decks (Landstill, etc.) - which Mono-R, Rb and Rg seem stronger against. Green gives you hate options (both MD and SB), Rb gives you disruption and removal specifically geared towards random combo decks (WW), and Mono-R gives you a rock-solid but incredibly disruptive manabase. Rw, from what I'm hearing from you, does give strong hate options, similar, but inferior, to green's, and probably stronger, but less synergistic removal in the form of Swords to Plowshares. Honestly, the White options for artifact removal are probably beaten by the Mono-R and Rg ones, while it's enchantment removal - though certainly beaten by green - is superior to the 2 or 3 choices Mono-R has.

On this point: you say that you like white because it gives you strong MD removal in StP. However, the main reason to run non-goblin removal is to deal with early game creatures. So why weaken the manabase to run Swords when Bolt would work for that purpose as well? Goblin-based removal (WW, Gempalm, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, SGC) are all arguably stronger in the late game.

TossUsToLions
03-03-2011, 02:58 AM
I think that Rb and Rg are by far the strongest options when splashing. I personally like Rb right now because of the decks that are popping up. Has anyone seen how many Green Sun Zenith's were in the last SCG t16? It's absurd. Perish, while may seem to only be good in our strong matchups, would completely wreck these decks. Another deck, Show and Tell, has also been gaiinig popularity recently. Black is better here too, providing the deck with Warren Weirdings as an out to Emrakul.

I think that the only reason to splash green would be if you're expecting a lot of decks splashing black in the meta. Engineered Plague is by far the hardest card to fight against, so this is the only reason that I would splash green. But, black offers Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize to get rid of those early Plagues until you can either win or find a lord or two. Also, although I have not tried it yet, Earwig Squad could be another way to fight Plagues.

GoboLord
03-03-2011, 03:17 AM
I have to split your reply up, because I only partly agree with you.


Well, it's always been my impression that Goblins - whatever the splash - does well when paired up against other, aggressive decks
This view is too much black-and-white. Goblins don't perform too good against Affinity, D'n'T, Aggro Loam, Rock and Zoo (even the Merfolk MU tends to be 50:50).


However, the typical failing of Goblins is when fighting either Combo or Board-Control based decks (Landstill, etc.) - which Mono-R, Rb and Rg seem stronger against. Green gives you hate options (both MD and SB),
Goblins is actually best against board-control decks. What does G give us that W doesn't?


Rb gives you disruption and removal specifically geared towards random combo decks (WW),
How is WW good against combo?


and Mono-R gives you a rock-solid but incredibly disruptive manabase.
True.


Rw, from what I'm hearing from you, does give strong hate options, similar, but inferior, to green's, and probably stronger, but less synergistic removal in the form of Swords to Plowshares. Honestly, the White options for artifact removal are probably beaten by the Mono-R and Rg ones, while it's enchantment removal - though certainly beaten by green - is superior to the 2 or 3 choices Mono-R has.
If I weren't to run StoP, I'd run Lightning Bolts (they are as synergistic as StoP, but with a smaller range . especially important in the problematic aggro-MUs)


On this point: you say that you like white because it gives you strong MD removal in StP. However, the main reason to run non-goblin removal is to deal with early game creatures. So why weaken the manabase to run Swords when Bolt would work for that purpose as well? Goblin-based removal (WW, Gempalm, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, SGC) are all arguably stronger in the late game.
In lategame those cards are stronger than BOLT but not stronger than StoP. StoP usefulness is independent from gamestate.


I think that Rb and Rg are by far the strongest options when splashing. I personally like Rb right now because of the decks that are popping up. Has anyone seen how many Green Sun Zenith's were in the last SCG t16? It's absurd. Perish, while may seem to only be good in our strong matchups, would completely wreck these decks. Another deck, Show and Tell, has also been gaiinig popularity recently. Black is better here too, providing the deck with Warren Weirdings as an out to Emrakul.

I think that the only reason to splash green would be if you're expecting a lot of decks splashing black in the meta. Engineered Plague is by far the hardest card to fight against, so this is the only reason that I would splash green. But, black offers Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize to get rid of those early Plagues until you can either win or find a lord or two. Also, although I have not tried it yet, Earwig Squad could be another way to fight Plagues.
I dropped B exactly because THIS strategy (getting ird of hate cards via Squad + Discard) doesn't work most of the time. Plus, WW isn't a good solution for Emrakul. If you are worried about the spaghetti-monster just play more Stingscourger.

bakofried
03-03-2011, 03:46 AM
At this I'm very confused. Pre-board, yes, Affinity can be a bad MU if they don't shit on themselves with a poor hand (as a former Affinity pilot, it could be fairly inconsistent. That was in the days of Vial Affinity though, so my experience is almost certainly outdated). However, there are several attractive board options to deal with Affinity in Mono-R, Rg, and Rb, that, as Nelis pointed out, are roughly as fast as those available to Rw. Aggro Loam can definitely be a thrashing, but I only have limited experience playing against it, and again, you have options in the board that can strengthen that MU. As for Rock, DnT, and, well, 'Folk, I believe that the Rb version is inferior. Rb, as a splash, necessitates not only WW in the main as at least a 1-of, but the meta must be dominated by green decks, specifically ones that are comparatively light on threats. Perish is not the strongest card vs. Fast Zoo especially (as many times they will board out their green dudes against a deck sporting black), but gains strength against something like Big Zoo (an arguably tougher MU for Goblins than Fast or Normal Zoo).
Green gives us Krosan Grip and Tin-Street Hooligan.
I named WW because of randomfatty.dec. It doesn't have to be Emmy; it could be Progenitus, the other fatty of the format.
Though StP is stronger independently, it does not generate CA like the others do and is, again, less synergistic. And, dolt that I am, I can certainly admit that StP is miles above Bolt.
On another note, I agree with you - Rb does not have an adequate answer to Engineered Plague. Pre-emptive action is poor in that situation.

thefreakaccident
03-03-2011, 11:41 AM
I've been tinkering around with a new variant of goblins and was wondering if I could get some feedback on the deck.

Its a build of goblins thats designed to beat zoo consistently.

lands//23
4 wasteland
2 rishidan port
4 volcanic island
4 arid mesa
3 scalding tarn
6 mountain

spells//8
4 curfew
4 aether vial

creatures//29
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron
4 goblin piledriver
3 stingscourger
1 gempalm incinerator
2 seige-gang commander
3 goblin chieftain


Incidentally the changes to the deck have also made emrakul and reanimator match ups very easy.

Curfew can be used for early tempo, or can remove blockers during an alpha strike, or reset your ringleaders, matrons, and seige-gangs.

Occasionally you can win off bouncing guys and destroying lands against unprepared opponents as well.

My favorite openings with curfew in the deck is when you get curfew+stingscourger+lackey early, and when you have curfew after a lackey connect when they only have one blocker (it becomes sooooo broken if you have matron or seige-gang).

I've been playing with hibernation to combat zoo even further out of the board, which is actually also really good against enchantress, which can sometimes also be a tricky matchup.


I actually played this list at the tournament at the knightware event last weekend and lost 3 games by completely missing on ringleaders, so I definitely need to find a way to up the goblin count. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can maintain a good enough goblin count while still incorporating the curfews?

Vandalize
03-03-2011, 01:04 PM
Goblins is actually best against board-control decks. What does G give us that W doesn't?


Split Second.






Hey guys, what about Meekstone + Shrieking Mogg?

Seems too random and absurd, but might work. If you can Vial it EOT and just play Meekstone next turn to go for Alpha Striking, or just to tap out foe's creatures.

TossUsToLions
03-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Hey guys, what about Meekstone + Shrieking Mogg?

Seems too random and absurd, but might work. If you can Vial it EOT and just play Meekstone next turn to go for Alpha Striking, or just to tap out foe's creatures.

It seems a too inconsistent. I think this is one of those things that falls under "the danger of cool things." Yeah, when it works, it's pretty sweet. But you have to get both of them. Also, what would we cut from the deck? Gobbos is such a tight decklist that's it's hard to test new things without diluting the goblin count too much. I'm pretty interested in just trying out 2-3 Meekstones in the board, though

Pinoy Goblin
03-03-2011, 10:23 PM
Affinity is a very bad match up for us goblin players with their new cards like signal pest, etched champion,mox opal and sometimes with AOB they swarm us overwhelmingly with their pesky creatures, its like a 35-65% win con for me. Most of my teamate runs that deck and all I can say that etched champion with cranial plating is the SH$T!!! Then Boarding . . . . expect 3 Plagues on the deck with a bunch of P needles. . . .

anotherday
03-03-2011, 10:35 PM
I've been tinkering around with a new variant of goblins and was wondering if I could get some feedback on the deck.

Its a build of goblins thats designed to beat zoo consistently.

lands//23
4 wasteland
2 rishidan port
4 volcanic island
4 arid mesa
3 scalding tarn
6 mountain

spells//8
4 curfew
4 aether vial

creatures//29
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron
4 goblin piledriver
3 stingscourger
1 gempalm incinerator
2 seige-gang commander
3 goblin chieftain


Incidentally the changes to the deck have also made emrakul and reanimator match ups very easy.

Curfew can be used for early tempo, or can remove blockers during an alpha strike, or reset your ringleaders, matrons, and seige-gangs.

Occasionally you can win off bouncing guys and destroying lands against unprepared opponents as well.

My favorite openings with curfew in the deck is when you get curfew+stingscourger+lackey early, and when you have curfew after a lackey connect when they only have one blocker (it becomes sooooo broken if you have matron or seige-gang).

I've been playing with hibernation to combat zoo even further out of the board, which is actually also really good against enchantress, which can sometimes also be a tricky matchup.


I actually played this list at the tournament at the knightware event last weekend and lost 3 games by completely missing on ringleaders, so I definitely need to find a way to up the goblin count. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can maintain a good enough goblin count while still incorporating the curfews?

If you're talking about splashing for removal that doesn't target, Warren Weirding is your card. If you're talking about improving the Zoo matchup, Mogg War Marshal, Lightning Bolt, and Perish and Pyrokinesis postboard, are the cards you want. But if you insist on the blue splash, there are a few better tempo enablers than Curfew.

Daze does a superb job protecting your turn 1 Vial/Lackey.
Stifle compliments Wasteland and Ports perfectly for a devastating mana denial package.
Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapors to deal with all problem permanents.
And versus Zoo, Submerge postboard in response to a fetchland is good times.
Blue Elemental Blast in response to Firespout or Devastating Dreams? Lol.

Blue seems to be a more "all in" splash than the other colors, and if I were to go in this direction, I'd rather just play Merfolk.

BWM
03-04-2011, 03:22 AM
At Day 2 of GP Madrid I saw a goblin-player with a blue splash for Standstill...





was a funny story, the combo-player he played again didn't realize he played blue goblins until his Ad Nauseam was forced...

Nelis
03-05-2011, 03:44 AM
Affinity is a very bad match up for us goblin players with their new cards like signal pest, etched champion,mox opal and sometimes with AOB they swarm us overwhelmingly with their pesky creatures, its like a 35-65% win con for me. Most of my teamate runs that deck and all I can say that etched champion with cranial plating is the SH$T!!! Then Boarding . . . . expect 3 Plagues on the deck with a bunch of P needles. . . .

I might also be a bit behind on experience with the new version of Affinity, so maybe its a bit harder matchup than I thought. But still if Etched Champion with Cranial Plating is the decks worse threat than Shatterstorm should be the card of choice since it doesn't target. I guess it depends on how quick Affinity can recover from a total board wipe. In how much shit are we if there's one Plague on the board and we've just swiped their board? Usually 1 Plague (in other decks) is doable.

Maybe if they run Pithing Needle (i guess its put for Aether Vial) should we board it out? If we add Shatterstorm and Pyrokynesis (to get rid of all other creatures but Champion and lower their artifact count) shouldn't that be enough?

And what do they board out if they add Plague and Vial?


At Day 2 of GP Madrid I saw a goblin-player with a blue splash for Standstill...
was a funny story, the combo-player he played again didn't realize he played blue goblins until his Ad Nauseam was forced...

Do you know what other blue cards he played? Razorfin Hunter maybe? Thats a surprise for the Merfolk Player too! :-D

Boots
03-05-2011, 05:11 AM
While following the single card discussion has been interesting, I am more concerned with match discussion at this point as Wizards will not design replacement cards. I am just not expecting something like a Goblin card on the Coralhelm Commander level in newer sets ever...

A big one for me is this, how can we best combat zoo? Ideally from a conversation stand point on mono red, as it is the most accessible archetype, splashes are mostly personal choice, and frankly, its all I have access to right now. What are the popular card choices here? What are good strategies to combat better creatures and burn than we have? How can we best abuse our makeshift draw engines and mana denial and vial acceleration? Sideboard strategies?

bruizar
03-05-2011, 07:21 AM
While following the single card discussion has been interesting, I am more concerned with match discussion at this point as Wizards will not design replacement cards. I am just not expecting something like a Goblin card on the Coralhelm Commander level in newer sets ever...

A big one for me is this, how can we best combat zoo? Ideally from a conversation stand point on mono red, as it is the most accessible archetype, splashes are mostly personal choice, and frankly, its all I have access to right now. What are the popular card choices here? What are good strategies to combat better creatures and burn than we have? How can we best abuse our makeshift draw engines and mana denial and vial acceleration? Sideboard strategies?

Like this?

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Mercadian_Masques/Battle_Squadron.jpg

Vandalize
03-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Lol, it's a Ship. WHY?

Well, for Zoo, in most of it's builds, some non-core cards that seems to be effective (mono-red):

Mogg War Marshal (chumpblocking is awsome)
Gempalm Incinerator
Lightning Bolt (R for 3, good enough :D)
Price of Progress (Zoo has a very fragile manabase, anti-synergy with Wasteland)
Goblin Chieftain (as a spot removal magnet)
Pyrokinesis (hmm, this kills a lot of things)
Chalice of the Void (If they run less than 3 Pridemages)
Stingscourger (bounce + chumpblock)
Warren Instigator (spot removal magnet + double trigger + synergy with Chieftain)
Skirk Prospector (synergy with everything, lol)
Lightning Crafter (hmm, he has a decent body, works as removal and Champion tricks with Ringleader/Matron, tho he's another spot removal magnet)

Splashes:

-Black:

Perish (a really Fat Bomb against Zoo)
Nature's Ruin (a less Fat Bomb against Zoo, but still huge)
Wort, Boggart Auntie (as spot removal magnet + synergy with gempalms/WW)
Warren Weirding (not so useful, but works as an extra removal)

-Green:

Krosan Grip (Jitte, Swords, Cannonist...)
Lead the Stampede (weak, but works as ringleader 5-8)

-White:

Retribution of the Meek (works against Knights and Goyfs, weak slot tho)
Swords to Plowshares (the best spot removal ever printed, nuf said)
Disenchant (Jitte, Swords, Cannonist...)
Path to Exile (weak, anti-synergy with Wasteland/Rishadan Port)
Condemn (weak, but works as pseudo-removal)
Crib Swap (fetchable, but mana-heavy and tribal [feeds Goyf])

Weak cards maindeck:

Goblin Piledriver (usually taken out in 2~3 pieces)
Siege-Gang Commander (mana heavy and Lackey stands no chance to connect against Zoo [they have like 30 cards to stop it, lol], I usually board out 1 piece)
Goblin Sharpshooter (can't do his work against Zoo)

That's all I can remember for now.

Dia_Bot
03-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Lol, it's a Ship. WHY?


It is changed to Goblin in the oracle text.

anotherday
03-05-2011, 01:02 PM
While following the single card discussion has been interesting, I am more concerned with match discussion at this point as Wizards will not design replacement cards. I am just not expecting something like a Goblin card on the Coralhelm Commander level in newer sets ever...
:cry:

A big one for me is this, how can we best combat zoo? Ideally from a conversation stand point on mono red, as it is the most accessible archetype, splashes are mostly personal choice, and frankly, its all I have access to right now.
Mono red goblins is my personal favorite anyways, though I play R/g.

What are the popular card choices here?
Mogg War Marshal. I run 4. Stingsourger too. Both are great for stalling until goblins can establish board position and generating and/or denying tempo.

What are good strategies to combat better creatures and burn than we have?
The following is from personal experience. It's not official, but it's how I play the matchup.
- You are the control deck.
- Hands with Vials are typically better than hands with Lackey, as Lackey will almost never connect. Vial may get Pridemage'd, but that's a 3 mana solution to our 1.
- Get rid of Lavamancers ASAP.
- If you have to block a creature and you have MWM out, block with MWM and not the token so you can avoid paying the Echo cost. You can also double block, say, a Wild Nactl with MWM and the token, and Incinerator the cat after damage step to kill it. Just be wary of removal on your goblin(s) in response to Incinerator.
- Stingscourger can be played on your turn (or Vial'd in on an opponent's turn) to bounce a Goyf and block a Cat. In that sense, it can deny mana as the creature will have to be recasted. Also, any x/3 creature blocking it will only need to be assigned 1 more damage to kill it. Pyrokinesis anyone? :wink:
- Path to Exile isn't too bad. Sure it occasionally negates our MWM's graveyard trigger, but it also gives us a land which helps us get to the late game faster which is when Zoo typically gets overwhelmed by goblins.
- Skirk Prospector is tech against Jitte if you don't have Goblin Tinkerer.

How can we best abuse our makeshift draw engines and mana denial and vial acceleration?
- I run 24 lands so I'm not so dependent on Vial if it should get destroyed. But if it doesn't, 3 charge counters is where you want it at. If you get lucky and get two Vials out, leave one at 2 counters for battle shenanigans and the other at 3 for free Matrons and Warchiefs. Never go up to 4 counters unless you really have too. Nothing better than hardcasting a Ringleader then Vialing in more free Matrons and MWMs!
- I usually Matron into Stingscourger or MWM to stall more until I have enough lands to hardcast Ringleader.
- Wasteland rocks. Always Waste their red source. Double points if you take out a white source with it. Another thing you can do is wait until they've exhausted all their fetches. If they didn't fetch a basic mountain, go to town on their Plateaus and Taigas. If they manage to stabilize at 1 red source, at that point you can start baiting burn spells by Porting that land.

Sideboard strategies?
OUT all Piledrivers. If I need more room, I also board out 1 Gempalm (I run 4 MD) and maybe 1 Lackey as well.
IN 3-4 Pyrokinesis. Remember after damage tricks. Just don't deplete your hand too quickly.
If they run Jitte, artifact destruction (Tinkerer) can help. Pithing Needle also works to some degree as well. If they Pridemage your Needle, at least your Vials are safe.

Tom T
03-05-2011, 02:05 PM
- If you have to block a creature and you have MWM out, block with MWM and not the token so you can avoid paying the Echo cost. You can also double block, say, a Wild Nactl with MWM and the token, and Incinerator the cat after damage step to kill it. Just be wary of removal on your goblin(s) in response to Incinerator.


In this case you can use incinerator after he assigned the attackers (Wild Nacatl) and before blockers. This way you will know with how much creatures you should block.
I.E. the Nacatl took 2 damage from Incinerator, then you should block with only the MWM. He has the option to remove the MWM (=card disadvantage for him) or let the Nacatl die.

Just my 2 cents.

bakofried
03-05-2011, 03:44 PM
I would never board out SGC vs. Zoo. You will get to the midgame, or you will lose. During that time, he will either stabilize your board position or put you in a winning one.

FoxBlade
03-05-2011, 04:45 PM
Why not board out lackey (As opposed to piledriver) vs. zoo? If he never hits why bother to leave him in games 2 & 3?

Piledriver can still swing pretty with some hefty damage and can make Zoo play more defensively, but lackey doesn't seem up to snuff vs. zoo and seems a much more logical choice to board out.

bakofried
03-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Okay, this discussion has been done before. You want to keep Lackey in when playing against Zoo. He forces them to play defensively and is a huge magnet for removal. Oh, and there's the off chance you go t1 Lackey, he goes t1 dude, and then you go ahead and Sting his dude, and put something scary into play. I'd keep in a single Piledriver (to tutor up with Matron) but he's not as strong and, on top of it all, an offensive creature in a MU you want to play defensively.

BWM
03-05-2011, 06:20 PM
Obviously they are talking about removing lackeys on the draw... On the draw they are at best underwhelming, on the play I think they're kind of meh too...

bakofried
03-05-2011, 06:41 PM
How is it obvious? When was it ever hinted that they were on the draw? Zoo is a fairly even MU, pre-board, for most colors. It could swing either way.

For this discussion, you should see the previous thread - if someone could help me remember the page range for the discussion, I'd be much obliged.

ScatmanX
03-05-2011, 07:11 PM
Okay, this discussion has been done before. You want to keep Lackey in when playing against Zoo.
This is truth, and has been discussed many times before. Even if they Bolt it turn 1, they had their 1cc removal target our 1cc creature, instead of a 2-3cc creature. That actually adds up to the investiments we spend on creatures on the MU. If they do not kill it, they'll aways hold back 1-2 creatures to block, because if he connects, it can be game-changing.

jrw1985
03-05-2011, 08:18 PM
Who's representing Goblins at Edison tomorrow? I want to see a goblin win the whole thing. My advice- pack Chalice, Perish, and Pulverize. Between those 3 cards you'll get a leg up on a huge portion of the field.

Amon Amarth
03-06-2011, 04:54 AM
Okay, this discussion has been done before. You want to keep Lackey in when playing against Zoo. He forces them to play defensively and is a huge magnet for removal. Oh, and there's the off chance you go t1 Lackey, he goes t1 dude, and then you go ahead and Sting his dude, and put something scary into play. I'd keep in a single Piledriver (to tutor up with Matron) but he's not as strong and, on top of it all, an offensive creature in a MU you want to play defensively.

QFT. You want something to do turn one against Zoo so Lackeys stay in. It also makes Bolt, Sting really strong and will give your opponent pause as to whether they want to start beating down.

GoboLord
03-06-2011, 06:22 AM
Hey guys,

I attended a tournament yesterday - here is my report. As always I'll give you a report of the matches I lost (cause everyone knows how and why we win - therefore it's not helpful to report those matches).

I ended up 5th-8th after 4 rounds of swiss and after losing Round 1 of the top-8.

Round 1: TES 2-0
Round 2: Rgb Goblins 1-2
Round 3: Zoo 2-0
Round 4: Mono R Goblins 2-0
T8: Zenith Enchantress feat Emrakul 0-2

Decklist:

//Lands [22]
6 Wasteland / Ports
7 R-Fetches
3 Plateau
6 Mountain

//Core [25]
-1 Piledriver

//Others [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Sharpshooter
2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity, 1 Goblin Tinkerer

Round 2 - Rgb Goblins
Game 1: I go first, I win thanks to double Lackey and Chieftain

IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Sharpshooter
OUT: 3 Piledriver, 1 Instigator

Game 2: He keeps his 7 cards while I mull down to 4 cards without any land. He goes first with Vial. After 4 rounds my board is still empty (exept for 1 Rishadan Port) while my opponent has Warchief and 2 Piledrivers in play. He shows me Lightning Bolt, Kinesis and Gempalm from hand - I concede.

Game 3: Both of us take mulligan to 6 and go first with Vial. I have a Piledriver out of my Vial to block his Lackey. He keeps on drawing lands while I have only 1 Mountain left. In his round he brngs in Warchief via Vial, plays 2 Piledrivers from hand and attacks with all of them. That's when I started making mistakes. My board was: Vial @ 3 and a singleton Mountain. My hand: 2 Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Warren Instigator. I tapped my Vial to bring in Matron fetching Chieftain(FAIL#1). I block 1 Piledriver and go down to 13. In my next turn I draw a land from top. Vial brings in Chieftain, I play WI from hand and attack with both of them (FAIL#2). WI connects into Ringleader into Ringleader (leaving me with 2 bockers). On his turn my opp plays Ringleader via Vial, Bolts my Ringleader and has a Gempalm for the other.

FAIL#1: I should have fetched SGC
FAIL#2: I shouldn't have attacked with Chieftain
(FAIL #3: The first Vial activation should bring in a Warchief to trade with one of his Piledrivers)

Conclusion: NEVER take the mirror lighty! Keep on counting damage and cards in hands all the time! don't be to hasty with attacking!

T8: Green Sun's Enchantress feat Emrakul
Game 1: I know what I'm up against, take mulligan to 5 and go first with Vial. I manage to deal 3 damage to his lifepoints before he locks me and kills me with Emrakul.

IN: 2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity, 4 Chalice of the Void
OUR: 3 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Stingscourger (FAIL#4), 3 Gempalm Incinerator

Game 2: I mull down to 6 keeping the following hand: Disenchant, Serenity, Piledriver, Warchief, Vial, Mountain. I play Vial on turn 1 and find a second land (Rishadan Port) on turn 7 to play CHalice of the Void. That's actually all I could do. Oblivion Ring eats my Vial, Confinements lock me. I watch my opponent tap Serras Sanctum to produce 16 mana....

FAIL#4: Aether Vial is way to slow in this MU - I should have boarded AV instead of Stingscourger (my only sollution to Emma) and Gempalm (both of which have feet, claws and teeth). Unfortunately I wasn't able to play Serenity. On the other hand this wouldn't really have changed anything because of Oblivion Ring.

Neuad
03-06-2011, 11:43 AM
Patriarchs Bidding.

Best card against zoo.

Vandalize
03-06-2011, 11:46 AM
Better luck next time GoboLord...

Against Enchantress, Green splash is much better, KGrips and Back to Nature are just bombs against them. Serenity is weak because it can be removed before you reach your upkeep.

In the mirror matchup, shit happens... I always find myself in trouble to fetch what I need with Matron too. Another thing I'd like to point out is that your deck has too many RR costs (4 warchiefs, 3 WI, 3 chiefs). I think 23 lands (another mountain or plateau) should make the deck lighter. Both games you lost, you were short on lands.

Just a question: Did the Enchantress guy use Green Sun's Zenith to find Emrakul or he was just hardcasted via pumped lands/sanctuml? He doesn't seem to be a green creature.

GoboLord
03-06-2011, 11:47 AM
Patriarchs Bidding.

Best card against zoo.

...and probably the worst card against almost everything else, isn't it?
Against which deck do you side it in (other than Zoo)?

Neuad
03-06-2011, 11:53 AM
I side it in against control all the time.

Was playing against Deedstill and he had countered/killed a ton of my goblins, was just digging for his win con. Then he Tsabo's Decree'd me. I resolved a Patriarchs Bidding next turn and swung with almost my entire library of goblins.

ScatmanX
03-06-2011, 12:06 PM
FAIL#4: Aether Vial is way to slow in this MU - I should have boarded AV instead of Stingscourger (my only sollution to Emma) and Gempalm (both of which have feet, claws and teeth). Unfortunately I wasn't able to play Serenity. On the other hand this wouldn't really have changed anything because of Oblivion Ring.
I wouldn't take out Vials either. Having it T1 is nice to be able to Port them. They use those enchant lands to ramp, so is quite easy to do some damage with 1-2 Ports out.

@FAIL#1, I'd probably have fetched Gempalm (I figure you had mana open when he attacked). Kill one of his dudes, block another, take only 2 dmg, and draw a card.


In the mirror matchup, shit happens...
This is the kind of thought that doesn't help us with anything. He made mistakes in the match. Just thinking "oh, shit happens", actually makes him a worse player. Shit doesn't JUST happen. We make it, by making lousy choices. And we need to analyze why we made them, so we don't make it again.

Vandalize
03-06-2011, 12:48 PM
This is the kind of thought that doesn't help us with anything. He made mistakes in the match. Just thinking "oh, shit happens", actually makes him a worse player. Shit doesn't JUST happen. We make it, by making lousy choices. And we need to analyze why we made them, so we don't make it again.

It was not a thought, it was just a comment. He was kind of manascrewed in both matchups, that's not his fault. But added to his mistakes, the game was lost.

bakofried
03-06-2011, 02:26 PM
Why did you board out Stingscourger? Although if they're hardcasting him, using Stingscourger via Vial kind of blows. Sting is only effective against Emmy when you can either A.) Ship back after a SnT, or B.) Ship back when they Sneak Attack with their last red mana.

Here's a list I'm messing with, for the reference, it's Rb for Perish and a few Weirdings.
Lands: 22
1x Arid Mesa
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Badlands
5x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Core: 26
Other: 12
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Mogg War Marshall
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Warren Weirding
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Stingscourger
Sideboard:
4x Pulverize
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Perish
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Nihil Spellbomb

anotherday
03-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Why did you board out Stingscourger? Although if they're hardcasting him, using Stingscourger via Vial kind of blows. Sting is only effective against Emmy when you can either A.) Ship back after a SnT, or B.) Ship back when they Sneak Attack with their last red mana.
True. I've never considered Emrakul's "...take an extra turn after this one" trigger before because he's usually cheated onto the battlefield. No point bouncing when they already have another turn to untap. I guess the best we can hope for is to save our Wastelands for Serra's Sanctum. Vial Sting, bounce Emrakul, Waste the Sanctum, and pray they don't have another way to generate 15 mana when their turn begins again?

bakofried
03-06-2011, 03:55 PM
Blowing up Sanctum seems to be one of the better points of attack.

Vandalize
03-06-2011, 04:21 PM
@bakofried How good is Nihil Spellbomb in your deck? Wouldn't Ravenous Trap be a better choice for this slot?

Hey, I've been testing sideboards for R/G Goblins and with this new Affinity/MUD meta, I've reached this:

Lands [22]

6 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga

Core [26]

...

Others [12]

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard [15]

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Back to Nature
1 Shatterstorm
1 Stingscourger

I could finally remove Skirk Shooter stuff from my R/G build with a lot of sadness. They're pretty much fun to play. But bolts seem to be a better slot for a heavy aggro enviroment. And I couldn't fit them in sideboard, tho.

Sometimes I want to up Shatterstorm to two pieces, but I can't find room for it. My only option is switching Tin Street Hooligan with Stingscourger and remove TSH for the second Shatterstorm, but then I wouldn't have a quick tutorable answer for artifacts.

bakofried
03-06-2011, 04:31 PM
You probably want a few more board wipes for Artifacts. Spot removal can be weak against decks like MUD, Affinity, etc.

Nelis
03-07-2011, 08:21 AM
Sometimes I want to up Shatterstorm to two pieces, but I can't find room for it. My only option is switching Tin Street Hooligan with Stingscourger and remove TSH for the second Shatterstorm, but then I wouldn't have a quick tutorable answer for artifacts.

Could you not take out a Pyrokinesis?

ScatmanX
03-07-2011, 01:13 PM
Could you not take out a Pyrokinesis?
Or put the Sting in the place of Tin-Street MB, and SB 1 more S.Storm. I think it's enough atrifact removal to surpass the Tin-Street...

Vandalize
03-07-2011, 04:11 PM
Ok, just dropped TSH and added Stingscourger MD and +1 Shatterstorm SB.

My list looks like this now:

Lands [22]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
6 Mountain

Core [26]

...

Others [12]

3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger

SB [15]

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shatterstorm
1 Back to Nature

The deck performs very well against Zoo and Merfolks (it's essencially a mono-R build). I don't know if I should only put 2 GY-Hate cards in my sideboard, ti's a low number, indeed (I'll maybe drop a Pyrokinesis and add a Tormod's Crypt). But the sideboard is working for matches that it should work (MUD, Affinity, Zoo, Merfolks, Enchantress).

Dropped 1 Taiga and added 1 Fetchland to make the manabase more solid than it already is, and my splash is light (KGrips and BtN only needs G to work).

Some guys were talking about a Blue splash in goblins for FoW/Daze/Stifle. Blue also gives us Hurkyll's Recall in sideboard: Using it EOT means a clean path to an Alpha Strike against Affinity/MUD.

Neuad
03-07-2011, 04:38 PM
When your enchantress opponents get some smart and start running karmic justice think about harmonic convergance. Love that card in my extremely heavy enchantress meta.


Fow requires like 18-20 blue cards minimum to be affective in a deck. Wayyy too many for goblins. Stifle and daze are bad cards but hey. I do like the idea of hurkylls sideboard but black and green are much stronger splashes.

GoboLord
03-07-2011, 06:35 PM
Hey guys,

today I saw a goblin list on which my first reaction was: Oh boy, what a crap. Then I got curious, watched the vid and the player made some good points.
I'll first post the list and then point out what I think:

//Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands, 4 Auntie's Hovel
8 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain

1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding

//Sideboard [15]
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Pithing Needle

My first thoughts:
* very few removal + poorly splitted
* I'd rather have mountains than Chrome Mox
* 4 Perish, no Pyrokinesis - seems bad to me
* 4 WI, 4 Chieftain, 2 Boartusk Liege - RARR!!! this deck is aggressive like hell

On the second glance I find 4 Chieftain + 2 Lieges interesting. Plague doesn't request enchantment removal anymore. This makes Humility and MOat virtually the only enchantments to worry about (maybe a reason to drop enchantment hate completely, since Landstill isn't the most popular deck right now.
Chrome Mox is very interesting. CM trades cardadvantage for speed. This is what what our deck needs: speed. We are very good in having cards in hand that we just don't need at a particular moments - cards that are better imprinted in Chrome Mox.
Pithing Needle is a bit random. The black splash isn't needed IMO since the MD removal is better in Mono R and Pyrokinesis is more flexible than Perish (and doesn't clash with Boartusk Liege).
Unfortunately the many RR-manacosts make Rishadan Port very questinable.
Following this train of thought the updated list would look like this:

//Lands [22]
4 Wastelands
16 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

//Core [25]
-1 Piledriver

//Others [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain


//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Pulverize


This deck is totally aggressive while having only very few possibilities of dealing with threats in form of artifacts and enchantments. It seems like it's strategy is to win before any critical cards get online. My question: is it reasonable to go for the all-or-nothing aggro strategy or should we stick to reliable splashes, run more removal and thus be more more flexible?

necba
03-08-2011, 03:57 AM
Hey guys,

today I saw a goblin list on which my first reaction was: Oh boy, what a crap. Then I got curious, watched the vid and the player made some good points.
I'll first post the list and then point out what I think:

//Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands, 4 Auntie's Hovel
8 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain

1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding

//Sideboard [15]
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Pithing Needle

My first thoughts:
* very few removal + poorly splitted
* I'd rather have mountains than Chrome Mox
* 4 Perish, no Pyrokinesis - seems bad to me
* 4 WI, 4 Chieftain, 2 Boartusk Liege - RARR!!! this deck is aggressive like hell

On the second glance I find 4 Chieftain + 2 Lieges interesting. Plague doesn't request enchantment removal anymore. This makes Humility and MOat virtually the only enchantments to worry about (maybe a reason to drop enchantment hate completely, since Landstill isn't the most popular deck right now.
Chrome Mox is very interesting. CM trades cardadvantage for speed. This is what what our deck needs: speed. We are very good in having cards in hand that we just don't need at a particular moments - cards that are better imprinted in Chrome Mox.
Pithing Needle is a bit random. The black splash isn't needed IMO since the MD removal is better in Mono R and Pyrokinesis is more flexible than Perish (and doesn't clash with Boartusk Liege).
Unfortunately the many RR-manacosts make Rishadan Port very questinable.
Following this train of thought the updated list would look like this:

//Lands [22]
4 Wastelands
16 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

//Core [25]
-1 Piledriver

//Others [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain


//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Pulverize


This deck is totally aggressive while having only very few possibilities of dealing with threats in form of artifacts and enchantments. It seems like it's strategy is to win before any critical cards get online. My question: is it reasonable to go for the all-or-nothing aggro strategy or should we stick to reliable splashes, run more removal and thus be more more flexible?

Hi i´m testing also an agressive list:


//Lands
4 Wasteland
17 Mountain

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Wardriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Pyromancer

//Other
4 AEther Vial


Pure aggro without any removel main.

My question to your list is: Why Boartusk Liege and not Goblin King in Sb?
King cost one less to play...

Avatara
03-08-2011, 03:57 AM
@GoboLord: A friend of mine placed top eight at a 39 man tournament (Eindhoven, The Netherlands) with a similar list (mono red).
Because you are running four Lackeys and four Instigators you might as well add two Smoldering Spires main deck to maximize connections without adding more removal spells to the main deck. In the mono red version I would run the following removal package: 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 3 Stingscourgers.
I would also replace the Chrome Moxes with Gemstone Caverns. With Chrome Mox you always have to imprint a goblin, which you don't want in some matches or when you have a hand with three or more lands. With GC you always have a choice to either remove land or something different. In the worse case you still have the option of playing it as a colourless land without removing anything else. Also note that GC helps a lot with splashes since it produces mana of any colour.
Lastly I would replace one Siege-Gang with Kiki-Jiki in a list with four Instigators. Matron -> Kiki-Jiki with one connect is just sick.

@necba: I like Wardriver in your list a lot. I would however try to fit in one Stingscourger... having a tutor-able spell that can remove just about any target is always useful.
Boartusk Liege survives a lot of removal spells that King doesn't, because a 3/4 body is pretty big.

BWM
03-08-2011, 06:43 AM
My question to your list is: Why Boartusk Liege and not Goblin King in Sb?

Boartusk Liege survives Firespout
Boartusk Liege survives Lightning Bolt
Boartusk Liege survives Wild Nacatl
Goblin King is terrible against the Mirror
Goblin King is terrible against the odd deck that plays a shapeshifter

Nameless Two
03-08-2011, 12:38 PM
Just a few notes on Chrome Mox

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 Skirk Prospector + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

T1 Chrome Mox + Piledriver
T2 Warchief
T3 Matron + Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Piledriver
T2 Chieftain
T3 Matron + Lackey

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 Matron + Matron + SGC
T3 Chieftain

T1 Chrome Mox + Lackey + Wasteland
T2 Piledriver + SGC
T3 swing & sac a token...

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 Chieftain
T3 Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Chrome Mox + Warchief
T2 SGC
T3 Sac 2 tokens

T1 Chrome Mox + Chrome Mox + Chieftain
T2 Matron
T3 Piledriver + Lackey

T1 Lackey
T2 Chrome Mox + Warchief + SGC
T3 Matron + Piledriver

T1 Vial
T2 Chrome Mox + Warchief + Lackey + Matron
T3 Matron + Matron + Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Vial + Lackey
T2 Chieftain + Matron
T3 Matron + Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Rishadan Port
T2 Warchief
T3 Gempalm Incinerator + Piledriver + Piledriver

T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + Matron
T3 Chrome Mox + Warchief + Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 MWM + Kuldotha Rebirth
T3 Chieftain Yeah!

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 SGC + SGC
T3 Chieftain

T1 Lackey
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + SGC
T3 Sac 2 Tokens

And there are probably loads more....

Vandalize
03-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Hmm, I think that an agressive list is pretty much nice in theory. But wouldn't be Fast Zoo a better option for this All-or-Nothing strategy?

ScatmanX
03-08-2011, 12:46 PM
Hmm, I think that an agressive list is pretty much nice in theory. But wouldn't be Fast Zoo a better option for this All-or-Nothing strategy?
It's not "all-or-nothing". You still have Vials, Matrons, Ringleaders, and everything that makes the deck good.
I tested with 2 Caverns for a while waaaay back. It was nice. Could not remember why I ever took them out.

Mantis
03-08-2011, 12:47 PM
GoblboLord: Could you please post the link to that video, I am really interested in seeing the vid as that list looks interesting.

GoboLord
03-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Here it is: Found it on BeNeLegacy

Gob's @ MTGO (http://blip.tv/file/4846122)

TossUsToLions
03-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Isn't the ability to go between being a control deck and being an aggro deck the best part about goblins? Completely taking out the control aspect of the deck makes it too linear, i believe. If you do that, you might as well play 16 lord folk, 16 lord elves, affinity, sligh, or zoo

Vandalize
03-08-2011, 03:17 PM
"Uh, I'm gonna play a Perish for his Knight and Kitchen Finks... Oh, wait! My Boartusk Liege is green also! HAHAHAHAHA"

That was silly.

Hey, if I attack with a Warren Instigator and it connects, and on my first trigger I cheat a Goblin Chieftain into play, my opponent will take 1 damage from the first attack and 2 from the second? What if my WI receives a Stifle? Only one of the tirggers get stifled?

GoboLord
03-08-2011, 03:59 PM
"Uh, I'm gonna play a Perish for his Knight and Kitchen Finks... Oh, wait! My Boartusk Liege is green also! HAHAHAHAHA"

That was silly.

Seriously, that could have happened to ANYone of us. Well, at least to me. That's why we can learn from mistakes that others make.

Dia_Bot
03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
I tested the list a bit and I for one do like it but am not completely sold on the 2 MD Chrome moxes. I agree they are insane in the first 2 turns but after those turns I always kinda wished they were basic mountains (or R. Ports).
Anyway, gonna do some further testing with it.

Pinoy Goblin
03-08-2011, 11:02 PM
@Gobolord: That list is interesting but I prefer 3-4 Simian Spirit Guides MD instead of the 2 Chrome moxes, imagine in the midgame that top draw mox is not going to be hepfull but with ssg it can be a 2/2 creature.

Simian Spirit Guide:
Pros:
- Can be a creature in the mid-late games if needed
- Manasource, Cannot be countered - stifle/trickbind only
- Can be use as a trick card on daze/pierce etc . . . .
Cons:
- Not a goblin
- one time use only

Nameless Two
03-09-2011, 04:19 AM
The one time use only is a pretty bad disadvantage though. Being able to go T1 Piledriver/MWM/Instigator, T2 Warchief/Matron/Chieftain is pretty sweet. But yeah as a top deck late game it's kinda useless... You'll move it to the bottom of your deck with a Ringleader though.

Avatara
03-09-2011, 06:43 AM
The one time use only is a pretty bad disadvantage though. Being able to go T1 Piledriver/MWM/Instigator, T2 Warchief/Matron/Chieftain is pretty sweet. But yeah as a top deck late game it's kinda useless... You'll move it to the bottom of your deck with a Ringleader though.

With other words just run Gemstone Cavern instead... lots of choice = good.

Nameless Two
03-09-2011, 09:14 AM
If you are on the draw... if on the play, having more colorless sources kinda sucks... (if you were running this in addition to port/waste)

ScatmanX
03-09-2011, 10:16 AM
If you are on the draw... if on the play, having more colorless sources kinda sucks... (if you were running this in addition to port/waste)
Than don't run it in addition of Port.
And when you're on the play, drop a Mountain and a Lackey/Vial, and proceed to win. No biggies.

jrw1985
03-09-2011, 11:25 AM
The Rock (GWB in all its permutations) is very popular right now, and I'm actually surprised that it hasn't been a bigger player always. It gained popularity during the Survival era, when its ability to Thoughtseize after Survival's aggressive mulls made it a meta-contender. Players have been turned on to the effectiveness of a deck that doesn't try to create synergies or combos, but instead just uses efficient cards to out-muscle weaker creatures and discard to nullify synergistic strategies. I see the Rock as a Zoo deck with better card advantage and disruption. It kind of amazes me that the archetype hasn't been more popular longer. I think The Rock is the deck to beat right now because it has no glaring weaknesses or terrible MUs. Hymn to Tourach and Deed allow it to really mess up tribal decks that need a lot of junk in play before they can be effective. Mox diamond gives it a resilient mana base. Goyf and KotR beat down smaller creatures. Confidant outdraws control. Oh, and Vindicate.

So, now that I've praised another deck long enough, how does goblins beat it? It's painfully obvious how they beat us (Hymn, Goyf, and Deed all suck to play through. Confidant + spot removal is a beating). I'm thinking this deck is a leading argument for Rb goblins with Perish in the side. Perish wipes their beaters and is an amazing topdeck mid-game. Aside from that, the proliferation of Confidant and downfall of Zoo makes me think running Tarfires isn't a terrible idea right now (Other popular tarfire targets- Qasali, Mom, Trinket Mage, lavamancer, Clique, Heirarch, Stoneforge Mystic... It's really only dead against Team America).

A friend of mine just built a Rock deck and says he crushes Goblins on the regular.I believe him. Any ideas?

Hencules
03-09-2011, 11:37 AM
A friend of mine plays Dark Horizons as well, and it really is a pain in the ass.

Mogg war marshal and siege-gang are awesome against these decks. Their fat dudes have no evasion whatsoever, so the tokens can keep them on a long distance. Also, if you think a lot of dark horizons will be played, adding a fourth rishadan port might be cool. Their moxes help them a great deal, but due to those i often see my opponents stuck at a mox and a land. Screwing with that one land gets you the game.

Also, post board you have stuff like perish (like you allready said) and crypt (it shuts down both their big beaters).

But all in all it's still a tough matchup.

Arsenal
03-09-2011, 12:00 PM
Some GWB variants (there are quite a few, which makes it sort of difficult to pin down specific strategies) I've seen play Elspeth as a 2-of, which makes combat really, really bad for us; we either eat a Flying, pumped Goyf/KotR, or we can get chumped by an endless stream of 1/1 Soldier Tokens.

Vandalize
03-09-2011, 12:01 PM
The Rock has a very fragile manabase because they're essencially 3 colored. The way to go is keep up some manadenial to keep them out of BB (for hymn), W (for Vindicate/Swords) or G (Goyf/Knight/Deed) depending on the situation. Wasteland is powerful but Rishadan Port is awsome in this MU, since all their spells are in sorcery speed.

Postboard you have Perish to deal with fatties, Pithing Needle for Pernicious Deed and any GY-Hate to keep his Goyf/Knight small.
Bolt is also fine in this matchup, because killing their Bob is removing their card advantage early game.

Well, if they drop a early Deed, you're pretty much dead, because they'll have spot removal for every single goblin you put in play.

Nameless Two
03-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Compost?? :P
Wasteland - Rishadan Port (To prevent Deed)
Back to Nature (against multiples of Engineered Plague/Pernicious Deed/Bitterblossom)
Patriarch's Bidding to have a topdeck that can instantly win you the game.
Warren Weirding (if they don't play with Bitterblossom, this always hits something you want to get rid of)
Spreading Algae ?? :P
Deathmark
Irini Sengir, to prevent Deed (yeah go search for that card!) ;)
Dystopia (probably a better idea, though double black might be hard)
Destructive Flow (Ok maybe not)
Encroach? Really?

Thoughtseize of our own?
Goblin Wizard, to avoid Vindicate ! ;)

Leyline of the Void? It wrecks their big green beaters...

Paper Tiger ... always

Tarfire wouldn't be too good, it only kills Confidant, which is also killed by Lackey/Gempalm Incinerator/Lightning Bolt/Whatever goblin he needs to block. And it can kill your opponent.
But for killing the other targets, it is pretty good (although Deathmark works on many of those aswell, what are you more scared of, Goyfs or Lavamancers?)

Anyways, lots of options, but I don't think the match up is necessarily all that bad. Between Matron, Ringleader and SGC there are a lot of late topdecks that can bring us back in the race after some heavy discard. Especially if their Confidant doesn't survive. And they don't always play answers to T1 Lackey. Then on turn two the best they can do is play a blocker (which often isn't capable of surviving lackey/Gempalm Incinerator). Unlike Zoo, they just can't defend well against Lackey...

ScatmanX
03-09-2011, 12:16 PM
I really dislike Perish in the MU. In a list like the one the Top 2ed the last SCG Open run only 4 Knights, 3 Qasali and 2 Goyfs as targets, and 3 Finks on the board. I'd much prefer having Weirdings and Gempalm, that can also take care of Bob and Mother of Runes.

To win against them we have to:
1 - Have a solid manabase. We can have 2-3 colors, but having 5+ Basics is great against them.
2 - Be fast enough and play trough Plague, or play something to deal with it.
3 - Be smart. This MU is quite interesting, and there are lots of tricks in the game that we need to take into consideration.
I love MWM and Skirk Prospector here.

Deed is not that great as most think. If they want to blow it, it means that they don't have any dudes out. We know how to not overextend. 1 Piledriver + 1 Ringleader into play means 5 dmg a turn, and they need to keep 4 mana open to blow us up. Deed also destroys their Mox, so be aware of how much mana they have. It is quite possible to manascrew them with Goblins. Also, sometimes Nature's Claiming their Mox might be the right play sometimes...

GoboLord
03-09-2011, 03:10 PM
I really dislike Perish in the MU. In a list like the one the Top 2ed the last SCG Open run only 4 Knights, 3 Qasali and 2 Goyfs as targets, and 3 Finks on the board. I'd much prefer having Weirdings and Gempalm, that can also take care of Bob and Mother of Runes.

To win against them we have to:
1 - Have a solid manabase. We can have 2-3 colors, but having 5+ Basics is great against them.
2 - Be fast enough and play trough Plague, or play something to deal with it.
3 - Be smart. This MU is quite interesting, and there are lots of tricks in the game that we need to take into consideration.
I love MWM and Skirk Prospector here.

Deed is not that great as most think. If they want to blow it, it means that they don't have any dudes out. We know how to not overextend. 1 Piledriver + 1 Ringleader into play means 5 dmg a turn, and they need to keep 4 mana open to blow us up. Deed also destroys their Mox, so be aware of how much mana they have. It is quite possible to manascrew them with Goblins. Also, sometimes Nature's Claiming their Mox might be the right play sometimes...

Back at the time when Junk was more popular (because of its positive MU against SUrvival) I tested this MU many many times (Goblins vs. Junk). I find that Scatman is right in every point he makes.

Avatara
03-09-2011, 04:52 PM
For mono red Relic + Pyrokinesis is a pretty descend combination. Drop relic and activate it after you have divided and dealt damage to the Goyfs 0/1, Knights 2/2 and Confidants 2/1. You will be able to 4/3/2 for 2 them if you time it correctly. Other direct damage sources and smart chump blocks/attacks might work just as fine.

TossUsToLions
03-09-2011, 06:10 PM
I've played this matchup many times. Deed is not the problem here. It is Engineered Plague. Recently, I've been testing Cabal Therapy to get rid of Plagues. It is surprisingly efficient at this, and has won me so many games in other matchups. It is definitely staying in my board as a four-of.

Anyway, like people have been saying, Rishadan Port and MWM are amazing in this matchup. Yes, it is tough to beat Junk (just look at the last metagame analysis that SCG put up. Gobbos had an AWFUL record against Junk). Also, they have a tough time dealing with a first turn Lackey, so maybe aggressive mulligans are necessary?

FieryBalrog
03-10-2011, 03:02 AM
Having played from the Junk side of the matchup a lot, I agree with the above post that Plague is much more relevant than Deed. Deed is pretty slow and half the time also screws over the Junk player (especially killing Mox Diamons). For that reason, coupled with the fact that tribal is on the downswing anyway, I don't even play Deed anymore. I do however run 3 plagues because it's still great against tribal and randomly decent elsewhere, and you really want some way to deal with enchantments, either staying in black for discard or moving to green for Nature's Claim or Grip. I stupidly & carelessly kept throwing out creatures one game vs Goblins and got blown out 5 for 1 by Perish, but still won because Top saw fit to give me 2 plagues in the next 3 turns.

First turn lackey is also a pain in the ass. Mox Diamond + basic is so good vs port/waste, but it's true you don't always have Diamond and without it the mana disruption can kick your ass.

Hencules
03-10-2011, 07:07 AM
Since were complaining about specific matchups anyway, I've got one: Mud..

What's to do about it? I've been playtesting against it last night with a buddy, and he completely destroyed me. There are just so many cards that need to be taken in account. Cards that are great against them (or at least i thought): Lackey, waste, bolt and incinerator. To screw with their metal workers, welders, land and early tempo.

So three games in a row i had a great hand, and he mediocre hands. He stil wiped me with T2 scary creatures.

It seems about time to put null rods in the sideboard.

Are there more people with bad experiences against MUD, or am I doing something completely wrong here?

Lorenzo767
03-10-2011, 10:03 AM
Since were complaining about specific matchups anyway, I've got one: Mud..

What's to do about it? I've been playtesting against it last night with a buddy, and he completely destroyed me. There are just so many cards that need to be taken in account. Cards that are great against them (or at least i thought): Lackey, waste, bolt and incinerator. To screw with their metal workers, welders, land and early tempo.

So three games in a row i had a great hand, and he mediocre hands. He stil wiped me with T2 scary creatures.

It seems about time to put null rods in the sideboard.

Are there more people with bad experiences against MUD, or am I doing something completely wrong here?
Hi! Yesterday i made 8 game vs MUD with my RBg decklist, ending up with 4 win and 4 lose, i know that it's not a significative number of game, but i want to report you my sensation about this MU.
I don't think that it's a terrible MU but surely not a good one, and now i explein you why i think that:

They haven't answer to our Lackey especially if we are on the play, and Vial block they're Denial plain ( Lodestone Golem,Wastes ecc.);
Our Denial could be really strong especially if they don't have Monolith+Key, but the most important things that i see during my test is that we MUST kill or bounce istantly the Metalworker or they will empty their Hand and fill the board of Brown Monster... Warren Weirding,Stinscourger, Tin Street Holigan and Artifact Hate are really important or maybe fundamental to slow them down (by the kill of Metalworker) gaining the time to fill the board of Gobs and kill them quickly ^^
So the game becomes a kind of Coin-Flip Who first connect with Lackey or Worker will probably win the game...
Just my hardly opinion ^^

Justin
03-10-2011, 10:04 AM
I would not put Null Rod in a goblin sideboard because it screws with Aether Vial. There was a lot of discussion on artifact hate in the sideboard on this thread a few pages back. I recommend that you read that. In my opinion, Shattering Spree is a good option against artifact heavy decks. It's cheap and can gain you card advantage.

Arsenal
03-10-2011, 10:06 AM
But the other options, while costing more in mana, all can be tutored for and played for "free" via a Lackey trigger/Vial activation. Decisions, decisions.

flrn
03-12-2011, 04:49 AM
Since were complaining about specific matchups anyway, I've got one: Mud..

What's to do about it? I've been playtesting against it last night with a buddy, and he completely destroyed me. There are just so many cards that need to be taken in account. Cards that are great against them (or at least i thought): Lackey, waste, bolt and incinerator. To screw with their metal workers, welders, land and early tempo.

So three games in a row i had a great hand, and he mediocre hands. He stil wiped me with T2 scary creatures.

It seems about time to put null rods in the sideboard.

Are there more people with bad experiences against MUD, or am I doing something completely wrong here?

I recommend you to read the last 2 pages of the thread. Gobbolord presented a decklist with a splash for white to include Swords to Plowshares in the main. These should do better against MUD than Lightning Bolt's/Warren Weirding. He also has Disenchant's, Serenity and Goblin Tinkerer (along with 3 Chieftain main) in his board, which should do extremely fine against MUD.

When you play the matchup you should focus on denying him his manasource's. They don't have that many off them. Wasting/Porting his lands along with killing his Metalworker as soon as you see him should be your gameplan. I don't think you need additional hate against this archetype, because it is very unlikely that it will show in larger numbers on legacy tournaments. But if you are that concerned with that matchup you propably should try out Pithing Needle/Pulverize as cards against that archetype.

Nelis
03-13-2011, 05:14 AM
Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

I was just reading the thread through because I'm playing Goblins today. Maybe its an idea to put the link in the primer?

Mantis
03-13-2011, 05:35 AM
I would not put Null Rod in a goblin sideboard because it screws with Aether Vial. There was a lot of discussion on artifact hate in the sideboard on this thread a few pages back. I recommend that you read that. In my opinion, Shattering Spree is a good option against artifact heavy decks. It's cheap and can gain you card advantage.
Null Rod is also very good against combo and Vial sucks in that matchup anyway. If you expect an artifact heavy meta, I think Null Rod is very reasonable. However there are tons of goblins that destroy artifacts, so I would start packing a few of those.

Justin
03-13-2011, 10:52 AM
But do you really want to cut your Vials against MUD or Affinity? Cutting them for Null Rod against Combo is fine, but then again, if you expect a lot of combo, you shouldn't be playing Goblins. Actually, I think this does lead us to an interesting question. Against which decks should Goblins side Vials out against? Vial is fantastic against Control and Mid-range decks, and it's much less so against Combo and Aggro (especially ultra-aggressive aggro). Are there aggro decks that you would cut Vial against?

ScatmanX
03-13-2011, 11:40 AM
Are there aggro decks that you would cut Vial against?
Not that I know of...
MAYBE burn, but only if they use that removal that destroys an artifact and hits you for 3.

Lejay
03-13-2011, 01:10 PM
Aether vial is way too slow against affinity.

Nidd
03-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Hello fellow Warchiefs and Chieftains, after taking down our local tournament yesterday and winning a Badlands, I've been quite disappointed with the Sharpshooter in my list.
I feel that he's a bit too situational and shouldn't be played in the MB in an open field.

A friend of mine, who was also piloting Mono Red Goblins, pointed out a sweet Goblin we might test: Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician.
The first ability might seem terrible, but remember that if a Goblin gets blocked, he nearly always dies, this way he at least has the chance to take down the blocking creature. As an added bonus, this disables Lifelink and also somewhat dodges Jitte. Combined with Gempalm Incinerator, this also makes it much more likely to kill the opposing creatures.
His second ability makes him a great card when the game drags on or enables you to kill your opponent out of nowhere, get up some blockers or turn a flood into a lethal assault of hasty angry green men.

Although he's quite costly, I think he's worth some consideration and might even get a spot in the MB. I'll surely test him the next time I get the chance!

overpowered
03-13-2011, 04:12 PM
Instead of Ib Halfheart, you should test Lightning Crafter. He's bigger than most of their threats at a 3/3 body. I put one in my board along with a sharpshooter. What makes Ib worse in my opinion is the blocking thing. Usually they don't block your 1/1's with X/4, they block your 12/2 piledriver with a 5/6 goyf. That would make piledriver not trade with it and nullify one of the stronger strategies of the deck for taking out larger creatures.

I do agree on the lifelink thing though, lifelink and Jitte are really bad for us. Lifelink not so much. Jitte is a house.


@Justin:
Against affinity, vial is horrible. They're too fast. Especially with master of etherium, etc.. I'd cut it vs them for pyrokinesis. Besides, you never know, they might name vial on their second revoker not realizing you cut it ;)

That's a tough match though.

bakofried
03-13-2011, 04:15 PM
What's your list right now?