[Deck] Meandeck MUD

[nodahero]

Out of curiosity did I miss something? Suddenly talk of Scroll Rack is all over (it feels like). I wouldn't put much faith in the SRack. It is essentially a more expensive Top. The only advantage I note is the ability to put a robot back in to Forgemaster out later.

[Final Fortune]

Out of curiosity did I miss something? Suddenly talk of Scroll Rack is all over (it feels like). I wouldn't put much faith in the SRack. It is essentially a more expensive Top. The only advantage I note is the ability to put a robot back in to Forgemaster out later.

Squadron Hawk nutted the card.

[Parax]

Could Karn, PW be used? Metalworker can nut him out on turn 2-3 easily.

[KnightElite]

Could Karn, PW be used? Metalworker can nut him out on turn 2-3 easily.

I was thinking the same thing, but at the same time Karn has some dis-synergy with Metalworker by not being an artifact himself (though likely nothing a Voltaic Key can't fix). The real question is whether or not Karn is something that is more worthwhile to be doing than Myr Battlesphere or Spine of Ish Sah which have the same cost, and have the advantage of being artifacts; this lets them be tutorable with Kuldotha Forgemaster, and work well with Goblin Welder and Metalworker.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Karn to be good, but I would guess that in the general sense Karn is basically going to be a functionally worse Spine of Ish Sah in this deck.

[Amon Amarth]

The best thing going for Karn atm is that he can deal with Null Rod, preemptively even.

[Hopo]

The best thing going for Karn atm is that he can deal with Null Rod, preemptively even.

And that doesn't seem much since if you are casting 7 mana spells, you already dodged the Null Rod in the first place and should be dropping game winning beaters now. There is no way to get to 7 mana under Null rod.

[(nameless one)]

So, is this deck still competitive or is it one of those one hit wonder.dec?

I know the same can be said with Dredge but an unprepared meta can be taken by surprise with it. Can this deck do the same?

Also, what are the benefits of running mono-red to red-blue?

And whats the update with this deck? What are the good/okay/bad matchups of this deck? I am currently goldfishing the deck and I am looking forward on finish it (the Bomholt version). Is there a current more optimized version of this and how does it fight the bad matchups?

Hopefully, i hear more from you guys.

EDIT: I was thinking of running mono-red and using artifact hate such as Shattering Spree to deal with Null Rod. Also, Painter Servant + Blasts (in junction to Grindstones, though running the combo on the minimal)

[GGoober]

This deck's pretty busted, I'm not going to lie. It has a couple of the more broken starts in the format. The only issue with the deck is heavy mulligans, and losing to StP. The deal is sometimes you don't really even need to StP the Metalworker (you should most of the time). But the deck invests so many cards/resources to powering out single threats (all StP-vulnerable) that despite the broken starts, the deck can fold to a single removal and find it hard to recover when it's in topdeck mode (obviously top helps here).

However, if your opponents don't have mana-efficient and fast removal, this deck takes a shit on them fast :P

[Admiral_Arzar]

It's very difficult to lose to decks that don't either pack a ton of sideboard hate, or run a ton of maindeck removal/counters/silver bullets. Take, for example, Landstill. They have 5642572457 counterspells and removal effects in addition to Wasteland, and can blow you out even IF you get the nuts. However, this deck runs over decks that don't have a ton of that hate. Case in point: I 2-0'd a Bant aggro list with Pridemage + STP main over the weekend. I assume he brought in more hate as well, but it really didn't matter. The deck just ran straight over his removal (especially game two, when I had an active Welder to nullify removal). The biggest issue with this deck is its propensity to just get horrible draws and lose to itself. If that doesn't happen, and your opponent doesn't have massive amounts of hate, you're going to crush them. I even ran over TES postboard with Chalice/T-Sphere/Lodestone Golem out the wazoo.

[(nameless one)]

Whats the consensus of the mainstay cards in the deck? What are the flex slots and what kind of meta do they fix?

[Clark Kant]

I really like this deck idea and the new set just leaked.

Porcelain Legionaire, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon are all exactly the kick in the pants this deck needed. Metamorph duplicates your Dragons, Wurmcoils and your opponents Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Progenitus and Emrakuls.

Legionnaire is a fantastic two drop due to the first strike.

Moltentail is a solid 4 drop artifact dragon since it flies and you can trade your life to pump it and do the last bit of damage.

Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
Artifact Creature - Dragon
4/4
(P) can be paid with R or 2 life
Flying
P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Replace the crappier cards with these and this deck is ready to fly.

[(nameless one)]

The card that got my attention from New Phyrexia is Unwinding Clock:


Unwinding Clock (4)

Artifact

Untap all artifacts you control during each other player's untap step.


With this, the deck doesn't have to rely to Voltaic Key to untap Grim Monolith. It can also make Kuldotha Forgemaster and Artifact Lands active every turn (if Artifact Lands need to be active).

Also, has anyone considered running Bottled Cloister in this deck? The deck doesn't really have any instants.

I'm goldfishing a list right now although its rough. I will post my list later when I get off of work.

[jtwilkins]

I have the most problem with Jace TMS and Swords to Plowshares. If Jace hits the board it is all over. To counter act the StP I go with Chalice but then end up removing too much of the offense of the deck slowing it down.

[jtwilkins]

I really like this deck idea and the new set just leaked.

Porcelain Legionaire, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon are all exactly the kick in the pants this deck needed. Metamorph duplicates your Dragons, Wurmcoils and your opponents Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Progenitus and Emrakuls.

Legionnaire is a fantastic two drop due to the first strike.

Moltentail is a solid 4 drop artifact dragon since it flies and you can trade your life to pump it and do the last bit of damage.

Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
Artifact Creature - Dragon
4/4
(P) can be paid with R or 2 life
Flying
P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Replace the crappier cards with these and this deck is ready to fly.

I don't think this deck can support any more life loss after using Ancient Tomb. I have a habit of putting myself in killing strike all ready. I think Phyrexian Metamorph is a gem though.

[(nameless one)]

I have the most problem with Jace TMS and Swords to Plowshares. If Jace hits the board it is all over. To counter act the StP I go with Chalice but then end up removing too much of the offense of the deck slowing it down.

I was thinking of this too. I was going to incorporate Painter's Servant + Pyroblast (along with Grindstones but on the minimal) but its obviously going a different build. Has anyone considered that?

[jtwilkins]

I was thinking of this too. I was going to incorporate Painter's Servant + Pyroblast (along with Grindstones but on the minimal) but its obviously going a different build. Has anyone considered that?

I'm running Mud/U with painter's servants, grindstones and trinket mage. Grindstone & Servent are highly highly effective. It wins out of no where and every spell becomes a must counter. Trinket mage can fetch so much stuff in this deck: land, mox, tops, grindstones, chalices. I am testing Tez 1.0 in the sideboard this week to combat Jace & Humility.

[(nameless one)]

I'm running Mud/U with painter's servants, grindstones and trinket mage. Grindstone & Servent are highly highly effective. It wins out of no where and every spell becomes a must counter. Trinket mage can fetch so much stuff in this deck: land, mox, tops, grindstones, chalices. I am testing Tez 1.0 in the sideboard this week to combat Jace & Humility.

Would you like to share your list?

[jtwilkins]

Would you like to share your list?


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Island

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Voltaic Key
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Grindstone

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
4 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servent
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

SP
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
------- 4 Metagame Slots
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I also run main deck Platinum Angel at times. That with Lightening Grieves is a auto scoop for many people. It's a great main deck because few people play answers preboard and it allows you to beat many decks that are hard preboard. I love watching people laugh then say I have nothing I can do about that. I also hardcast Colossus often with this build.

[GoldenCid]

Sure, it draws you a card when you sac it with Kuldotha Forgemaster, but if you're activating Forgemaster, you've almost certainly won the game anyway (at least this has been my experience), and drawing the extra card is rarely relevant.

What is your most successful tutored card with kuldotha?...i mean the card that you often tutor to win the game.

[jtwilkins]

What is your most successful tutored card with kuldotha?...i mean the card that you often tutor to win the game.

I also hate it when people say once you activated forgemaster you have won the game. Where are you people playing jobber ville? They don't have swords, agro with multipul threats, moats, Jaces, Humility, rebuild/recall, mazes, etc etc. I regular top 8 with this deck and by no means is one resolved a win. forgemaster

[GoldenCid]

If Phyrexian Revoker is that great...why don't we run it MD??

[GGoober]

I also hate it when people say once you activated forgemaster you have won the game. Where are you people playing jobber ville? They don't have swords, agro with multipul threats, moats, Jaces, Humility, rebuild/recall, mazes, etc etc. I regular top 8 with this deck and by no means is one resolved a win. forgemaster

Lol, I can testify to this. Most of the time when I'm sitting on an StP, I just let my opponents Forgemaster 3-1 themselves. Granted sometimes they get a Myr Battlesphere, then I'm just staring at a Myr Battlesphere instead of something that wins the game (I play Landstill primarily so Battlesphere is the least of my worries, I'll have EE for tokens and WoG/Humility so he can't continue to chain forgemasters with the tokens.)

[(nameless one)]

If Swords to Plowshares is a big concern (I am thinking Shattering Spree could also cause trouble with this deck), is it worth looking at Mental Misstep? I mean, if everyone is going to jump in that boat, we might as well right?

I've been goldfishing/playtesting the list below. So far I feel fine with it, though I could use more advice. Its a Mono-Red build:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Goblin Welder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan


I used to run Wastelands in the Citadel spot and 2 SDTop/2 Crucible of Worlds. While Wasteland is awesome against decks that pack a lot of non-basic lands, I find that trying to disrupt them this way is pointless, especially if you land a Lodestone Golem or a STitan. Citadel also enables Mox Opals. Since I am not running Wastelands and Mox Diamonds are only at two, I decided that I won't be needing Crucible, although getting those City of Traitors back would be good.

I finally decided to run a full set of SDT because I have experienced that sometimes, you just get clunky hands/draws. My usual play with an SDT with a Sol Land would be > SDT, then use the floating 1 to spin the top.

If the deck were to run Mental Misshap, what slot would it take? SDT's slot? Also, if that is the case, why not just run a maindeck Chalice of the Void? I know its only sideboard material (and it doesnt work well with Welder, SDTop and Key) but wouldn't Chalice at 1 screw a lot of decks?

Also, has anyone tested Scarecrone?

[GoldenCid]

If the deck were to run Mental Misshap, what slot would it take? SDT's slot? Also, if that is the case, why not just run a maindeck Chalice of the Void? I know its only sideboard material (and it doesnt work well with Welder, SDTop and Key) but wouldn't Chalice at 1 screw a lot of decks?

Also, has anyone tested Scarecrone?

Chalice @ 1 is a big help for us! I never cut it out!

[(nameless one)]

The problem is what to remove from the main for Chalice.

I playtested the deck a couple of times and while it has broken turn 1-2s, I find the deck as inconsistent as fuck. But I think I can live with that. I mean I still play with Dredge once in a while anyways.

I have changed a couple of things from my previous post. Here's what I'm testing right now:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Goblin Welder
4 Voltaic Key
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Open Slots

The reason why I added the blue artifact land is because I am contemplating between Thirst for Knowledge and Fabricate on the open slot. While TfK gives a lot of card advantage, Fabricate does give the deck a tutor outside of Forgemaster for consistency. Has anyone tested these cards?

My other question is: how do you deal with an Null Rod? I mean Dredge can still get around graveyard hate, but Null Rod itself is a pain. Can anyone help?

Are there no viable discussions to this deck at all? Is this deck a one hit wonder?

[(nameless one)]

The problem is what to remove from the main for Chalice.

I playtested the deck a couple of times and while it has broken turn 1-2s, I find the deck as inconsistent as fuck. But I think I can live with that. I mean I still play with Dredge once in a while anyways.

I have changed a couple of things from my previous post. Here's what I'm testing right now:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Goblin Welder
4 Voltaic Key
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Open Slots

The reason why I added the blue artifact land is because I am contemplating between Thirst for Knowledge and Fabricate on the open slot. While TfK gives a lot of card advantage, Fabricate does give the deck a tutor outside of Forgemaster for consistency. Has anyone tested these cards?

My other question is: how do you deal with an Null Rod? I mean Dredge can still get around graveyard hate, but Null Rod itself is a pain. Can anyone help?

Are there no viable discussions to this deck at all? Is this deck a one hit wonder?

[edgarps22]

It works still, Fact or Fiction, Thirst all work if you try the blue splash. The problem I ran into is my local meta just maindecking hate because it is that strong. It lost its allure when I started running into maindeck Qasali Pridemages + maindeck Krosan Grip + maindeck Nature's Claim. Not much you can do with that. One thing I want to try is the new Karn. Yes he cannot be tutored for, but I say as a 3 of he can be rather nasty. He replaces Spine, same mana slot and same effect and is unaffected by a null rod after the fact, and can be played as early as turn 2. But overall right now this deck has a hard matchup with every combo deck and it needs to adjust. The Lodestones need to stay a 4 of, the Wurmcoils probably need to drop much lower because aggro is not our main concern. I like the Painter combo being added though. It gives a different angle to attack from, and can be assembled rather quickly.

From what I have seen from playing the deck I would like to add that Mental Misstep should not be in the maindeck. It is maybe a sideboard card, because it really only stops StP that we care about that early. We really don't care that much about vial, lackey, noble hierarch, brainstorm, ponder, etc etc. What we do care about is combo going ape shit, so I would suggest Chalice in that slot, since well its better than MMS.

Overall I feel the deck can compete, but it needs redundancy. The horrid amount of mulligans in the mono red version, the weakness to disruption in the UR really hurt the deck. The blue adds a great amount of consistency with Thirst and Fact, I recommend testing both, they are both good and just serve a few different purposes in different meta's. Thirst is a turn faster, instant +2 card advantage, Fact is a bit slower, but it really is "Which of these 5 cards am I going to kill you with?" So try it out and see what you think. I just think right now is a bad time for it, High Tide really does not care about the disruption package we have available, and we are fundamentally too slow to stomp them. Perhaps the addition of Painter Grindstone might make the deck more viable at the moment, but then we are really just another combo deck and the core idea behind the deck has changed, which may or may not be a bad thing.

[Madpeep]

What is your most successful tutored card with kuldotha?...i mean the card that you often tutor to win the game.

Myr Battlesphere is almost always your first target. It's not that he "wins" the game directly, but he just does everything this deck wants him to do. He's a big guy, all by himself. He gains you artifacts, fueling more forgemastering/welding. He has pseudo-evasion with his pinging ability. His peons are useful in a variety of different ways. After the battlesphere you have many choices for targets, based on the game-state, but having played this deck fairly well over the last two months, I can assure you that Myr Battlesphere is the correct first-pick over 90% of the time.

[(nameless one)]

So is it safe to run 1 or 2 Battlespheres? It rarely happens on my playtesting but you do get it in your hand once I a while.

[edgarps22]

It is safe to run 1 or 2. IF you are running 1 what are you replacing it with? It being in your hand is not really a problem, we can produce 7 mana on turn 2. Battlesphere is particularly strong, and if you have an active welder he gets very silly REALLY fast, but most of the time I end up running out Sundering Titan to disrupt opponents, which is why I switched to 1 of each.

[NukeMoose]

Myr Battlesphere is almost always your first target. It's not that he "wins" the game directly, but he just does everything this deck wants him to do. He's a big guy, all by himself. He gains you artifacts, fueling more forgemastering/welding. He has pseudo-evasion with his pinging ability. His peons are useful in a variety of different ways. After the battlesphere you have many choices for targets, based on the game-state, but having played this deck fairly well over the last two months, I can assure you that Myr Battlesphere is the correct first-pick over 90% of the time.

Exactly. However I used to think just getting the plan online was strong to win most games, but now I've hopped on the BSC wagon. That guy has really pulled his weight in finishing matches. If MBS is right 90%, BSC fills the next 9%.

[(nameless one)]

Blue MUD (I know the name is contradictory) made top8 in Charlotte and no one is talking about this deck?


Creatures [19]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine


Sorceries [4]
4 Thoughtcast

Artifacts [21]
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Staff of Domination
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [16]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

I still dont know why people like running 2-ofs in a deck with minimal tutor (such as Tops and CotV). Its not like you're going to Forgemaster for them anyways.

Anyways, anyone wanna discuss this? The Staff of Domination touch looks cool though as you can instantly win with it along with Metalworker (if you have 3 artifacts in your hand).

[jtwilkins]

Blue MUD (I know the name is contradictory) made top8 in Charlotte and no one is talking about this deck?



I still dont know why people like running 2-ofs in a deck with minimal tutor (such as Tops and CotV). Its not like you're going to Forgemaster for them anyways.

Anyways, anyone wanna discuss this? The Staff of Domination touch looks cool though as you can instantly win with it along with Metalworker (if you have 3 artifacts in your hand).


I would love to hear how the Staff of Domination preformed. I love that key on the open or draw 1. I think you would be unhappy to see a unmana accelerating staff in its place. Yes, I know you can go infinite but I find that I have an empty hand most of the match so I would have to draw back up to make the combo work.

I have also played the thoughtcasts too, I found them redundant with the tops. There was nothing worse then drawing TC when you all ready knew what you were going to draw into and it was crap. You don't need card advantage as much as the winning card.

I would love to see a report on this to see the match ups. I have found that 90% of the match ups forgemaster just runs over its the other 10% that kill you. Glad to see the deck place so high.

[NukeMoose]

I've posted about Thousand Year Elixir many times here but I've finally got around to testing with it. I urge you all to do the same, as it's been worth its weight in gold for me.

This deck has about 50/60 cards decided leaving just a about 10 flex slots. Running a 2/2/2 split with Key, Lightning Greaves and 1kYE gives us 4 haste effects, and 4 untap effects with 6 slots.

The ability to Use Metalworker/Goblin Welder/Forgemaster the turn it comes into play in the face of StP is very powerful. If they don't have removal then it's effect is x2. The ability to untap Goblin Welder is also a step up in power, and in combination with key can do some silly stuff.

I have yet to see a game where waiting a turn to attack with BSC or Wurmcoil cost me the game-those cards are good enough without haste-and the ability to actually cast/reccur stuff mitigates the potential of shroud that decks running 3+ Greaves have.

This is the most consistent version of MUD I've played with yet:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland/Crystal Vein

3 Mox Opal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-Year Elixir
4 Grim Monolith

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus


SB: 3 Summoning Trap
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst

[Mr. Ages]

Blue MUD (I know the name is contradictory) made top8 in Charlotte and no one is talking about this deck?



I still dont know why people like running 2-ofs in a deck with minimal tutor (such as Tops and CotV). Its not like you're going to Forgemaster for them anyways.

Anyways, anyone wanna discuss this? The Staff of Domination touch looks cool though as you can instantly win with it along with Metalworker (if you have 3 artifacts in your hand).

I'm pretty impressed with the list and performance. I'd have a hard time dropping to 2 Chalice. Currently I'm testing this build with 3 Chalice and 3Thoughtcast. I feel the Thoughtcast is really there to reload, I don't really want one in my opening hand.

I thought it was interesting that he stuck with the 16 lands, as I've been trying hard to fit in more to better support the moxen.

Staff of Domination is a great combo finish, however, how often do you get to the late game with 3 artifacts in hand. In my limited testing, it has been working better when it comes out in the mid game, a turn or two before the opponent thought they would die.

So its kind of playing more like Reanimator. If they stop your first chance to combo off, you just reload with Thoughtcast and try again.

I do miss lock pieces like Trinisphere.

[(nameless one)]

So about running the deck with 16 lands; has anyone ever find that half of the time, the deck shits on itself with terrible sevens and mulls. Yes it's unfortunate to topdeck lands when you need threats but it is also unfortunate to not being able to play your threats.

My proposal: run a disruptive mana base ala Goblins. I know the deck already runs Wastelands but sometimes, having only 16 lands aren't enough, especially when the deck utilizes Mox Diamond to get early starts.

I propose running Rishadan Port. If you need lands, you can use it as a mana source. If you draw it when you don't need lands, you can use it as a disruption tool. Has anyone tried running them as well?

[L10]

Is this deck viable without Welder? Without Welder, we can take out the Moxens and artifact lands for better lands such as Mishra's Factory and Rishadan Port. Here is what I have in mind:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key

3 Flex Slots

Basically the standard list without Welder and the red mana sources. Sometimes, I will have Welder in my hand without a red mana source, making it essentially useless anyway. I have no doubts about Welder's worth when he hits the battlefield though.

[(nameless one)]

Is this deck viable without Welder? Without Welder, we can take out the Moxens and artifact lands for better lands such as Mishra's Factory and Rishadan Port. Here is what I have in mind:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key

3 Flex Slots

Basically the standard list without Welder and the red mana sources. Sometimes, I will have Welder in my hand without a red mana source, making it essentially useless anyway. I have no doubts about Welder's worth when he hits the battlefield though.

If you're not going to run Welder, I would suggest Scarecrone. Not only it can bring back robots from the scrap heap, you can also use it as a pseudo draw-engine (in multiples). Though I wouldn't get rid of the Moxes as they enable broken starts.

Try running 3 Scarecrones on your open slots and see how it goes.

Also, I know a lot would disagree but Platinum Emperion has help me a lot with the aggro matchup. I know we already get the upperhand against aggro but sometimes, when the deck shits on itself and you need to tutor for something against aggro, Platinum Emperion seems to be that robot.

I just broke up with my girlfriend so this previous weekend, I've had ample time testing this deck on Cockatrice. I have some questionable choices on my list but so far its been working for me.

Heres my current list:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Great Furnace
3 Rishadan Port

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Scarecrone
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah

3 Goblin Welder
2 Fabricate


Alright, the land base: I find that half of the time, the deck shits on itself when you don't have enough lands. Yes, you have artifact sources but when your opponent deals with them, you are boned. My first solution was to add more lands (Seat of the Synods and Darksteel Citadels) but with my playtesting after that, I found that the deck will have those moment that you will get mana-flooded. My solution, take an idea from my Goblin deck: use Wasteland and Rishadan Port to try to disrupt your opponent's manabase when you have nothing going. So far it has won me games. In junction with Lodestone Golems and Sundering Titan tricks with Welder, I have been able to fulfill that Staxxesque build. I even won a game with only a Greaved Metalwoker (most of my crap got Path to Exiled, Swords to Plowsharesed and countered, this was post-sideboard) because I was able to lockdown most of his mana-sources late game. It did take 15 turns to take him down but was beautiful.

The rest of the manabase: well I find that having multiple Opals sucks balls. As good as they late game, they do not help in the early game like Diamonds do. So i reduced them to two. It hasn't been an issue and I am not planning to change it anytime soon. A playset of Metalworkers and Grim Monoliths are needed for the deck to accelerate.

Robots: I am running the standard playset of Forgemasters and Lodestone Golems. I am only running 3 Wurmcoils because I really don't have a reason. I guess I was just tight on space. The singleton robots are there as Forgemaster targets. Sundering Titan has been great for me in dealing against decks that have greedy mana-bases. Platinum Emperion has helped me win a couple of aggro matchups that doesn't seem winnable. Myr Battlesphere is there to replenish my side of the field after a Forgemaster activation. Steel Hellkite has been the least helpful though it has won me a couple of games against Dredge (destroying tokens and at the same time flying over a 14/14 Golgari Grave-Troll, it did have help from an active Welder).

Scarecrone has been okay. With all my playtesting, I've only used its reanimator ability a couple of times. For the most part, I've used it as a means to replenish my hand. If I have multiples of them, for 5 mana, I can keep drawing an additional card each time I untap mana-sources. This rarely happens but I find it okay. I am still divided on whether I should run this main, sideboard or not at all. While it fulfills Welder's role when I cant get a Welder online or post-board with Chalice of the Void, It has been the least useful card. For the most part, its just a glorified Sensei's Divining Top with extra abilities. I will keep playtesting it and see how it goes.

Tools: I usually see Lightning Greaves on 2 but I am currently running 3. I am never disappointed to get an active one early on but I don't think the deck needs multiples of them active at the same time. Usually if I have 2 active on the field, I would just use the extra one as Forgemaster fuel.

Voltaic Key is one of the main part of the deck but like Greaves. I am never disappointed to see them but multiples of them is never needed. I have cut it to 3. Besides, If I side in Chalice of the Void, they come out anyways.

I am still skeptical with Spine of Ish Sah. I never really tutor for. It has helped me win a game but it was only a game. I am contemplating on replacing it with Duplicant to add more threat density but Duplicant doesn't hit all the hate cards out there that Spine can hit.

Non-artifact cards: I used to run 4 Goblin Welders. I have cut them to three because sometimes, not having a colored mana source sucks. I do love seeing it active on the field. Maybe I'll up its count again.

I am also skeptical about Fabricate. I was testing that slot between Thoughtcast, Thirst for Knowledge and Fabricate. I found that Thoughcast is a great fuel but its only good if you already have a lot of artifacts in play (and I am running minimal artifact lands). For some reason, I am not convinced with it. TfK is as good as Thoughcast. It can also be a discard outlet so you can do Welder (and Scarecrone) Tricks. Unfortunately though, sometimes, you just don't get what you need from TfK. Fabricate has provided more consistency. If I needed an artifact mana source, it can grab it. If I needed a threat, it could grab it. If I needed to slow an opponent, it can Staxx pieces (such as Lodestone Golem). Its still up for debate whether I should replace it or not but so far, its been doing its job.

I know I don't really have blue source for these but having the Moxes as the blue sources has never been a problem. I did have a game where I had Fabricate on my hand with no blue source but it hasn't been a big issue.

Sideboard: Heres what my current sideboard look like:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Open Slots

For the most part, I never really sideboard. If I am on the play against control or combo, I would side in CotV. If I'm on the draw, I would usually go Revokers. Thorns are there against combo and control. I either go Chalice + Thorn or Thorn + Revoker depending on the matchup or if I'm on the play or draw.

I am currently running 1x Umezawa's Jitte, 1x Sword of Fire and Ice, 1x [card]Crucible of Worlds[/cards] as my open slots in the side but I have yet to side them in. I was thinking of running graveyard hate instead, just in case.

Overall, the first 12 slots are a definite for me, though the last 3 are still open for suggestions.

Any advice or constructive criticism are always welcome. Hopefully, more players would share their experience with the deck.

[NukeMoose]

Welder has been the glue that holds the deck together for me. I often win with zero land in play but plenty of robots and "stuff" in play. Welder makes sacrificing your board to Forgemaster much less painful. Since I've added 1kyE's, I often don't mind holding onto him as we rarely have Artifacts in the yard turns 1-3.

I would run off color artifact lands over Port or Mishra's Factory even if I wasn't playing Welder. They have been that important to me in testing. So if we are already going to run 3-5 mox and 4 colored artifact lands then I think Welder should be somewhere in the 75.

[NukeMoose]

Welder has been the glue that holds the deck together for me. I often win with zero land in play but plenty of robots and "stuff" in play. Welder makes sacrificing your board to Forgemaster much less painful. Since I've added 1kyE's, I often don't mind holding onto him as we rarely have Artifacts in the yard turns 1-3.

I would run off color artifact lands over Port or Mishra's Factory even if I wasn't playing Welder. They have been that important to me in testing. So if we are already going to run 3-5 mox and 4 colored artifact lands then I think Welder should be somewhere in the 75.

[(nameless one)]

What does your sideboard look like?

This past weekend, I played the mirror match. I didn't really board anything in. However, s/he boarded out Lodestone Golem for Tangle Wire. It was effective as it made him/her win a game.

Should the sideboard focus on a more staxxques build? This essentially hits both combo and control. I am pretty sure that we have a positive matchup against aggro and par with control.

[NukeMoose]

My sideboard is similar to yours:

4 Chalice
4 Revoker
4 Thorn
3 Summoning Trap


Trap is a bomb that comes out of left field against decks running combinations of Stifle/Force/Plow/Daze which I believe are some of our worst match ups (Team America, Thresh/NH, Landstill, etc).

Aggro is usuallly pretty solid matchup except I've had some problems against affinity. Chalice/Thorn/Revoker takes care of most combo decks pretty well. Duplicant maindeck gives us an out to Emrakul decks although I'm excited about replacing it with the new Phyrexian Metamorph. Platinum Emperion is my MD answer to aggro and Progenitus. About the only thing that wrecks us is Null Rod, Humility and Ensnaring Bridge but I can't bring myself to run something like Spine of Ish Sah or smokestack to get rid of noncreature permanents. I'm excited about trying the new Karn though.

[Guy I Don't Know]

As far as I can tell this is the core:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkitet
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Flex Spots:
4 Lotus Petal
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Duplicant



There are hands that are playable if mox diamond is lotus petal instead (example: mox diamond, metalworker, ancient tomb, 4 other non mana producing cards) that I want to test it out. I know that Lodestone Golem is good at disruption, but I am thinking of playing something like fact or ficiton over lodestone and play 4 seat of synod over wasteland. That is if there is a lot of control popping up in the meta. May also cut one lotus petal for one more land. I am only goldfishing at this point.

[Worldslayer]

In a recent free article on SCG.com, Andy Probasco threw out an idea postNPH of a Vintage "Blue" MUD deck, relying on Forgemaster and Shops while backing them up with a blue counter suite.
For reference -

Artifacts
3 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mana Vault (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Emerald (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Jet (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Pearl (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Ruby (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Mox Sapphire (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Sol Ring (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Time Vault (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall (Restricted in Vintage)
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Opal

Sorceries
1 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtcast
1 Time Walk (Restricted in Vintage)
1 Tinker (Restricted in Vintage)

Artifact Lands
4 Seat of the Synod

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
4 Mishra's Workshop

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolarian Academy (Restricted in Vintage)

Now obviously, this is a T1 list. However, as Meandeck converted the standardized version of MUD to Legacy thanks to Sol Lands, unrestricted "bad" moxen,, etc... and made it work, could this also be a viable alternative? It seems as if blue is steadily creeping into the decklist as is.

Would this be a direction MUD is capable of moving in in Legacy? To the point, is this a direction it would WANT to move in? The blue pitch counters backing up the threat of an active Forgemaster seem promising. Mental Misstep may also be up for consideration here, especially in versions running Metalworker and Wurmcoil (as would probably happen in Legacy) as it protects your big mana engine and end result from the cheap removal like Bolt, StP, Path, and Nature's Claim.

As a very, very draft and starting point for discussion, what about -

Blue Steel

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
3 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [M11] Voltaic Key
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
3 [MM] Misdirection


Several key points on the rough draft -

Yes, you lose goblin Welder. Mox Diamond with 16ish lands seems like a great way to not have any mana ever, and with only 3 red sources it seemed like he'd rot in hand more often than not. Since blue is now more important than red, Seat of the Synod replaces great Furnace. Yes, I suppose you could replace Citadel, but then you're running 16 lands, 4 of which self-detonate. Seems like Wasteland would NOT be your friend. This could be wrong, but when Welder's main purpose is fighting Counters and nonPath removal, the blue suite seems to do his job, no?

Wasteland and City of Traitors made EIGHT of your lands self-detonate often. While I'd love to up the land count to 20 to support them, as Lodestones and Metamorphs chaining alongside Wastelands seems like a great way to win games, I simply don't know what would be cut. While Thoughtcast is possibly the weakest card, it turns your blue count to a dangerously low 14 and once again leaves you without any form of card draw whatsoever.

Show and Tell might very well be able to replace Metalworker, allowing for Opals to go out in favor of Wastelands. This would lead to a less "explosive" list, but a far more stable one. Besides, you could still get T2 Blightsteel/big guy in a Show and Tell shell if you really needed to clock fast.

Thoughts? Comments/criticisms? Could this be a viable branch of the MUD deck going forward, or is the increased protection inferior to the glass cannon speed of older, nonblue lists in most metagames?

[Fatal]

Brainstorms are missed for sure - do don't have so many blue spells to pitch to FoW, also this deck isn't so explosive as vintage list - mishra workshop is huge difference - u can cast any bomb from lands on turn 2 - here we need metalworker on table which can be mostly cast turn 2, good point with MM it can save metalworker which mostly is your win con on turn 2-3. Misdirection isn't so great here probably more testing needed what to cut. Phyrexian Metamorph is really great I tested it - very universally can be goyf, can be any creature/ramp what u needed.

[deadlock]

In my opinion Welder is extremly strong and I would have a hard time to justify not running him. His interactions with the deck are countless and he makes us stronger against counterspells. Its also good to have another 'engine' creature besides Metalworker, to scatter the opponents spot removal.
Also Legacy blue has much less to over for this deck compared to its Vintage counterpart.

Some questions about card choices:
- Goint up to 3-4 SDT: I think one of the biggest problems of this deck is consistency and SDT helps here by a large margin. While we dont have that much shuffle effects, its interactions with the rest of the deck makes up for it more than enough (Key draw engine, Welder and Forgemaster interactions).
- A single Citanul Flute in order to grab Welder with Forgemaster: Currently I consider this as a typical win-more inclusion, but maybe some people think its a good inclusion?
- Both Blighsteel and Emperion look tempting, but are they really necessary? Wurmcoil is so powerful and can be hardcasted much more easily, though I still need more expierence with the deck to make a definitive statement.

[Lammina]

In my opinion Welder is extremly strong and I would have a hard time to justify not running him. His interactions with the deck are countless and he makes us stronger against counterspells. Its also good to have another 'engine' creature besides Metalworker, to scatter the opponents spot removal.
Also Legacy blue has much less to over for this deck compared to its Vintage counterpart.

Some questions about card choices:
- Goint up to 3-4 SDT: I think one of the biggest problems of this deck is consistency and SDT helps here by a large margin. While we dont have that much shuffle effects, its interactions with the rest of the deck makes up for it more than enough (Key draw engine, Welder and Forgemaster interactions).
- A single Citanul Flute in order to grab Welder with Forgemaster: Currently I consider this as a typical win-more inclusion, but maybe some people think its a good inclusion?
- Both Blighsteel and Emperion look tempting, but are they really necessary? Wurmcoil is so powerful and can be hardcasted much more easily, though I still need more expierence with the deck to make a definitive statement.

Dead, I agree with your Welder´s opinion.

With him in the battlefield, and if yout opponent havent a removal or something to stop his effects, the many interactions that he could make.... his is one real finisher in the MUD deck, besides, he help us to be so much strong against counters-decks...

In many play tests, really, I´m confuse about the SDT remains in the deck or not.
It helps the consistency, but, in many games, we dont use it, just cast the welder with a big guy in the grave, or cast the worker, cross your fingers for next turn he continues on table, and bring his fat friends for the battlefield... i dont know what cut to bring more 1 or 2 SDT... in my analysis, is more favorable CUT 2 SDT and bring more lands or 1 mindslaver.

Mindslaver + welder = almost win!!!!

And the Citanul Flute inst SEXY for me... too slow...

And the insertion of BSC, is another good question. In theory, BSC dont have sinergy with your other creatures, in damge terms I mean.

The Colossus can be marvelous only in early game. In mid or late game, a Myr B. sounds me better...
Cyah,

Lammina

[deadlock]

Flute looks certainly like a win-more as a Forgemaster activation should bring you into a winning / near winning position. Mindslaver is a good point, as its so good against combo, which looks a little bit iffy preboard. Thinking about i-win-buttons, Myr Incubator is another card which comes to my mind, but it requires an even larger mana investement than Mindslaver.

Also running the right super-robot shouldt be our main concern, but to make the deck more consistent to get up to that point where we can think about what we want to pull out of our deck. In many cases getting a Wurmcoil Engine looks just fine (aggro) for example. In my eyes does SDT help immensely reaching this goal. Again its a cantrip engine, draw engine with Key and has very good synergy with Welder and especially Forgemaster.
Another point is that it helps us to not run out of gas too early, as this deck sometimes can possibly put down its whole hand in 1-2 turns. Typically there three types of starting hands:
- A good mix of mana and business: These are the perfect hands, no questions asked.
- A lot of business, but very few mana: These hands are akward most of the time and get mulliganed.
- A lot of mana, but not much business: Thesse are hands were SDT shines, it lets you get a business spell 1-2 turns faster than you would get it normally and with Key on the table you get an extra card per turn (even two with the restack 'trick').
Concerning slots for additional SDTs. I consider the second Crucible, Lightning Greaves and Myr Battlesphere as flexible slots. Running either 4 or 1 as a tutor target looks more consistent to me than a bunch of 2ofs.

I have second thoughts concerning Welder, not because he is bad, but because without Welder we could rebuild the deck to run Chalice in the main, which I consider extremely powerful. The biggest point is that it stops spot removal and mostly shuts down a lot of Legacy decks. If so I would cut SDT too and replace red with blue, which is the exact opposite of what I am trying to sell till now ^^. Basically its Welder, SDT and COTV side vs Chalice + X main. The first variant might be stronger as we can circumvent spot removal with a 3rd Greaves to some degree.
What are the most powerful blue cards in here that people can come up with?
Sidenote I somewhat compare this deck to the old Tinker Extended decks, where the last interations did run 4 Key and 3 Chalice main (Reference: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/ptno03/d2decksTop8. Especially note the inclusion of Stroke, Upheaval and Tangle Wire.

[evanmartyr]

Based solely on my experience in Legacy, and what coverage I've seen/read, this deck *really* requires Goblin Welder to be able to fight through counters/removal/general hate, as well as a threat multiplier, if you will. I think barring an extreme increase in consistency/speed, versions without Welder will struggle in game one, which puts you in a very precarious position for the rest of the match.

[(nameless one)]

I speak for Welders as well. My current list runs 3 (though I am running an additional 2 Scarecrone) but I feel like I should bring in the 4th one again. They are damn good especially with Lightning Greaves attach to them.

[Dune Echo]

Based solely on my experience in Legacy, and what coverage I've seen/read, this deck *really* requires Goblin Welder to be able to fight through counters/removal/general hate, as well as a threat multiplier, if you will. I think barring an extreme increase in consistency/speed, versions without Welder will struggle in game one, which puts you in a very precarious position for the rest of the match.
Not necessarily. Check out the Top 8 for this past weekend's Legacy Open. Particularly for the 8th place deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38339

Decklist for the those that don't want to click the link:
//Metalworker, by Jason Raflowitz
//Downloaded from StarCityGames.com
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith

1 Karn Liberated
4 Thoughtcast
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Staff Of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves

// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Crucible Of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion

[Dune Echo]

14th place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38351) was very similar:

//Metalworker, by Ali Aintrazi
//Downloaded from StarCityGames.com
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith

2 Karn Liberated
4 Thoughtcast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Staff Of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Crucible Of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion

I understand that Thoughtcast is potentially "Draw two cards for U" in this deck, but the fact that Tezzeret's Gambit can consistently be cast by the deck as long as 3 mana is available makes me wonder if it's not simultaneously useful? I've been goldfishing (only) with 3 Tezzeret's Gambit and frequently get Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Grim Monolith, Tezzeret's Gambit, and pass the turn on turn one. I think that this is potentially a better early game play than waiting to turn 2 to draw cards via Thoughtcast or slow drawing through Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 you want to drop the rest of your hand, not gas it up, right?

[deadlock]

Some notes concerning these two lists, feel free to disagree.
- No Welder makes Sundering weaker too, I would think twice if I'd run it in a blue list.
- While Thoughtcast can be very efficient, it is also very underpowered for this deck. Its more suited to deck with a light mana base like affinity, but in here I would rather see some power spells like Fact or Fiction.
- No Crucible main, I agree with this. I kept a single on in the main for some time, till I realized that I never wanted to Tinker for it.
- Karn, I like that he can answer anything, but he is not good as a singleton as he cannot be tutored, Hellkite / Duplicant look much better in this slot in my opinion.
- Both run Colossus, dont know if he is really needed. I try to watch out for situations where this might be the case.
- Also Staff is included in both lists, looks to conditional for my taste.

[Lammina]

@Dune: IMO, both the SCG lists arent in top 2-4, because they ignored the power of the little goblin against blue decks!

In these days, the blue decks (Team America, MUC, Blue Combos...) are in the tops around the world, and this fact cannot be ignored by the MUD players.

IMO, the welder is very important, more than ever, in the MUD lists.

Now, the addiction of Karn Liberated in the deck... I dont have a opinion in the moment... need more tests, but in theory, a card that cant be tutored for the kuldotha and dont have sinnergy with the golems, the welder and neither with the thoughtcast (blue versions), dosent souns me sexy...

@Deadlock: the idea of a Myr Incubator, sounds me a nice try!

Cyah,

Lammina

[L10]

If you're not going to run Welder, I would suggest Scarecrone.

Also, I know a lot would disagree but Platinum Emperion has help me a lot with the aggro matchup. I know we already get the upperhand against aggro but sometimes, when the deck shits on itself and you need to tutor for something against aggro, Platinum Emperion seems to be that robot.

With the absence of Welder, Scarecrone works great. Thanks for the suggestion.

Isn't Platinum Angel better than Platinum Emperion in most situations?

[manugl84]

Isn't Platinum Angel better than Platinum Emperion in most situations?

No, because with the angel in play your life can go to zero, and if they destroy it, you die. With the emperion, your life can´t change, so if they destroy it , your life remanis as it was when you played it.

[jtwilkins]

No, because with the angel in play your life can go to zero, and if they destroy it, you die. With the emperion, your life can´t change, so if they destroy it , your life remanis as it was when you played it.

I play with Platinum Angel over Emperion. He protects against decking and jaceing. Once you get lightning grieves on him many people scoop. He also is a flyer that can get though when other creatures can't so he might keep you alive an extra 3 turns and finish the job in the air for you.

[(nameless one)]

I play with Platinum Angel over Emperion. He protects against decking and jaceing. Once you get lightning grieves on him many people scoop. He also is a flyer that can get though when other creatures can't so he might keep you alive an extra 3 turns and finish the job in the air for you.


Just to let you know, Platinum Angel is a SHE, not a he. I don't know if you're aware but she has mammaries (boobs for those who don't know). She's not fat enough to be a dude with moobs (man-boobs for those who don't know).

Trolling aside, it does make sense that you would play Platinum Angel over Emperion. Though she is only good IF shes wearing Lightning Greaves.

After extensive testing, if I play Platinum Angel, it would be sideboard material at best. The more I play with Emperion, the more I realize that he's not really needed. If you have multiple Ancient Tombs on the field, Emperion is better than Wurmcoil Engine. It does happen but not as often. I will still keep Emperion on my main for now though I might return the 4th Wurmcoil on my main over Emperion.

Also, against Jace-base control, I would usually sideboard in Thorn of Amethyst and Phyrexian Revoker.

Speaking of Jace (of any problematic non-creature cards), which one is better on the main: Spine of Ish Sah of Duplicant. I never really tutor for them though it would be good to have an answer to problematic permanents. The question is which one would be a better answer. Most of the permanents I would want to answer are Humility, Null Rod and Moat. While Spine can answer all three, without a means to tutor for them (via Forgemaster), you're usually boned.

While Duplicant cannot answer the above problems, it by itself can be a beater (though not a great one).

Which one does people use?

[ArthurGress]

Which one does people use?

Hi;

I really like Duplicant in main, he is a path/swords removal like, and retains creature's x/x. Last weekend, I won 4-0 agains a Zoo, and if I remenber well, I tinkered him all 4 games targeting the Reliquary. Just Great :) (My dream is to target an Emrakul, still not possible hehe)
In the last game, I remenber tinkering an Steel Hellkite to destroy 2 Reliquarys,

Spine of Ish Sah: I dont like it. I would only use it if my metagame is full of Humility, Null Rod and Moat, like you said.

By my tests, MUD needs only 3 Creatures that must have in the Main for the Kuldotha
- Sundering Titan
- Duplicant
- Steel Hellkite

- Blightsteel I like to have in my SB, for Combos and controls.

- Myr Battlesphere. I really dont like this guy. But I Respect who plays with him.

My list, for Reference:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
1 Mountain

I think that 16 land is not enough for 3 mox diamonds, even for the big creatures of the deck. I would like to have 18 lands, but 17 is doing really good. One basic for Paths, since Zoo is everywhere.

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite

4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds - Waste lock, Citys. Really Like him.
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SIDEBOARD:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker

This is the SB Base that can't change.
The rest depends of you/your metagame.

1 Blightsteel Colossus - Combo and Control.
3 Crush - So we can have any chance agains N. Rod =/

Thnx, Later.

[(nameless one)]

I believe Myr Battlesphere is there so you can activate Forgemaster multiple times without any serious drawbacks. I honestly think that he deserves at least one slot on the main.

But for the most part, I agree that S.Titan and S.Hellkite should be on the main. I'll keep playtesting between Duplicant and Spine of Ish Sah.

I playtested with SDT for a bit and I don't think its that good in this deck. On that slot, I've been using Scarecrone instead (on top of Welder).

I was running a single Crucible but have since removed it, though I have been running 18 lands (8 Sol Lands, 4 Wasteland, 3 Great Furnace, 3 Rishadan Port)

I agree with CotV, ToA and Revokers on the side. Though I am running 4 Revokers against decks that use SDTs and Vials.

I noticed that this hasn't been suggested against decks that are Wasteland proof: Naked Singularity. I remember 10 years ago, I hated playing this kid from my school because he had a Staxx deck that ran it.

Also, has anyone tried Tangle Wire on the side?

EDIT: I want to share my secret tech: Fabricate

[bondafong]

I've just started playing this deck and find sideboarding a bit difficult. Is there a good post/article about sideboarding strategy with this deck?

Another thing I found difficult is when to mulligan. There's so many borderline hands that just dies to a fow, but will win easy with forgemaster otherwize.

For reference I play the blue version. Another thing I thought about adding in this version is 2-3 Thirst for Knowledge on top of the Thoughtcast. I think this will make the deck more resilient, as I found myself sitting with too many situational cards too often (like a board full of mana, but nothing to play).

[jtwilkins]

I've just started playing this deck and find sideboarding a bit difficult. Is there a good post/article about sideboarding strategy with this deck?

Another thing I found difficult is when to mulligan. There's so many borderline hands that just dies to a fow, but will win easy with forgemaster otherwize.

For reference I play the blue version. Another thing I thought about adding in this version is 2-3 Thirst for Knowledge on top of the Thoughtcast. I think this will make the deck more resilient, as I found myself sitting with too many situational cards too often (like a board full of mana, but nothing to play).

Most of the time you are bringing in Chalice for 1 and revokers. So your removing tops, then keys, then stat looking at your extra creatures.

[anonymos]

I noticed that this hasn't been suggested against decks that are Wasteland proof: Naked Singularity. I remember 10 years ago, I hated playing this kid from my school because he had a Staxx deck that ran it.


We don't talk about this card. It makes people VERY angry.

I've been eyeballing a 12th pick Omen Machine the last couple days to help mess with the control and combo decks since we don't have dedicated card draw outside of possibly thoughtcast or staff if you choose to run one of them. I think it's just a pet card situation with it though. I'm also trying to get Chains of Mephistopheles working...

[(nameless one)]

Why Chains of Mephistopheles? Its not an artifact? Against control and combo, I've been happy with Thorn of Amethyst and Chalice of the Void/Phyrexian Revoker (depending on the build I'm facing).

I have since removed Swords of Fire and Ice from the sideboard. Right now my three slots are: Naked Singularity, Spine of Ish Sah and Scarecrone; though its on a constant change.

[anonymos]

Didn't mean Chains for this. Just the pet card thing. Was using it as a comparative tool with Omen Machine. One of those could be good but probably isn't situations. Naked Singularity may also fall into that category. At the same time, I had acquired one when I first picked this deck up because it looked like something that could really screw with people. Not sure where I'd want to board it in though, and as such it hasn't gone into testing.

[deadlock]

ArthurGress, I really like that you have removed Battlesphere from the deck.
While multiple 'free' activations of Forgemaster are nice, what is the real gain and at which point is it a win-more move? Shouldnt be an activation be lethal? I am trying to come up with situations where going for a Sphere and next turn going for lets say a Wurmcoil is necessary over going for the Wurm directly.
I by no means want to say that Sphere is bad, but we need to think about cards we can pull out - there will always be cards which are nice to have, but not really necessary.

Currently I play your list - 2 COW, + 1 SDT (removed one) and one open slot, I am varying between a single Darksteel Citadel (the 18th land) or a third Lightning Greaves.

Concerning your board, are there any scary artifact creatures which would justify Overload over Crush or any other artifact killer? I am not sold if banking on such a card at all is a good plan.
The first couple of pages of this thread discussed this topic intensely. For now its okay to ignore Null Rod I think, as it is not widely played. Are there any other really scary artifacts, which are worth to side against?
I am thinking about putting Crucible in the side against slower decks like Landstill (as both tourney lists). Also a single Tormods Crypt might be appealing agaist Dredge and Loam decks.
In general the standard configuration of 4 COTV, 4 Revoker, 4 Amethyst looks really solid for most cases anyway.

[(nameless one)]

I think going 3 with Lightning Greaves is the way to go. I never regret seeing it. I even get sad when I don't see it. A hasted Metalworker or Forgemaster can swing games in a heartbeat.

I believe that 4/4/4 is the way to go for sideboarding. My current 3 open SB slots (which is everchanging) are currently Naked Singularity, Mindslaver and Spine of Ish Sah.

I am still thinking about Scarecrones from the side. I currently have two on my main. I'll see how I'm going to change this.

[ArthurGress]

ArthurGress, I really like that you have removed Battlesphere from the deck.
While multiple 'free' activations of Forgemaster are nice, what is the real gain and at which point is it a win-more move? Shouldnt be an activation be lethal? I am trying to come up with situations where going for a Sphere and next turn going for lets say a Wurmcoil is necessary over going for the Wurm directly.
I by no means want to say that Sphere is bad, but we need to think about cards we can pull out - there will always be cards which are nice to have, but not really necessary.

Currently I play your list - 2 COW, + 1 SDT (removed one) and one open slot, I am varying between a single Darksteel Citadel (the 18th land) or a third Lightning Greaves.

Concerning your board, are there any scary artifact creatures which would justify Overload over Crush or any other artifact killer? I am not sold if banking on such a card at all is a good plan.
The first couple of pages of this thread discussed this topic intensely. For now its okay to ignore Null Rod I think, as it is not widely played. Are there any other really scary artifacts, which are worth to side against?
I am thinking about putting Crucible in the side against slower decks like Landstill (as both tourney lists). Also a single Tormods Crypt might be appealing agaist Dredge and Loam decks.
In general the standard configuration of 4 COTV, 4 Revoker, 4 Amethyst looks really solid for most cases anyway.

Hallo Vie Gehts Deadlock!

Like I said in My last post, in my opinion there are only 4 Creatures that really deserves to be tinkered with the Forgemaster:

- Sundering Titan(no explain here)
- Duplicant - Sword/path like removal and beater.
- Steel Hellkite - EE effect Like. Dodges Moat, and kill it o/
- Blightsteel - Now he is in my main deck, he's worthin' the try.

And normally the Wurmcoils, if you need Aggro/lifelink beater.

About Crucible. I just hate losing to wastelands, and this has been helping me with the problem. And it plays very well with wasteland for a wastelocking play.

My Board is very, very Weak. I don't even need to have sideboard here where I play, but I keep him Updated due to Tournaments outside the city.

I can't remenber exactly what artifacts other than null rod can mess up with the deck.
The ideal Artifact destruction would be shattering Spree, because it dodges CotV. But Crush e just sooo much cheaper, and im not having problems with it.

By now, im using the blue version of MUD, something like Ali used in the last tournament.

The differences are:

- 2 Karn
- 1 Staff
- 1 Darksteel Citadel

+ 2 Crucible
+ 1 Steel Hellkite
+ 1 Island

I like the Blue Version better than the original Michael Bomholt's used, By Now.

Sideboard:

Basic:
4 CotV
4 ToA
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Other:
1 Duplicant

3 Free Slots

Im thinking about Mental Missteps in the free slots, but im not sure about the bad sinergy it has with CotV. Other cool option i've seen is Scarecrone, i'll test it.

By Now, this is my conclusion.

Later =)

[bondafong]

I'm thinking about adding 3 Thirst to Knowledge to the blue version. This will ensure that the deck is a bit more resilient to spotremoval and countersoells, and make the deck a bit more consistent. Further more you can shuffle the singleton Colossus into your deck again if you draw it (which I personally always do).

I was thinking of an list looking something like:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith

1 Karn Liberated
4 Thoughtcast
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Staff Of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves

What do you think?

How often do you use the Wastelands btw? I was thinking about replacing them with Black Artifact Lands and experimenting with Tezzeret in the Thirst for Knowledge spot.

[Grymer]

Can we make a U/R version of the deck with welder and thirst.. would be awesome if it worked :O :D

[thefreakaccident]

Can we make a U/R version of the deck with welder and thirst.. would be awesome if it worked :O :D


If you went for that route, maybe you could also go for transmute artifact?

[Grymer]

If you went for that route, maybe you could also go for transmute artifact?

hmm.. i just think its pretty hard to make dobble of a mana.. ?? or is it just me? the single color isnt a problem cus you offen got a mox in play..

[EnderKR]

I'm very much a fan of the "screw with people" mentality. As such, Naked Singularity looks like fun....but I think is probably best with a Welder out, yes? That way you can avoid the whole issue of paying the upkeep. Of course, Daze and obviously Force of Will still sidestep it, so I'm not sure how relevant it could be. Possibly in a stax/control version of the list?

My current list no longer uses Welder; mostly because I want to reduce the whole issue of waiting a turn to abuse him. The Welder and Metalworker are weak points in the plan - IF we untap with them, we often win....but with a field full of counterspells - including Mental Misstep, which will be popular for the first few tournaments, even if it's not tournament quality - and Swords, it just seems easier to avoid that route entirely and focus on a control aspect. And if Welder is gone, then I feel that both Sundering Titan and Myr Battlesphere lose a lot of their awesomeness; Sundering Titan is most powerful when he's being bounced in and out of play, and Myr Battlesphere when it makes a stream of tokens. At the very least, I think the Titan can be replaced.

Has anyone tried a Stax build with this? 4x Chalice, 4x Trinisphere, 4x Tangle Wire main? You'd still have a majority of your acceleration, and your beaters (Lodestone Golem, Wurmcoil, Forgemaster and Hellkite/Colossus), but you'd be able to switch from aggro to control easier. Looking at old legacy mono-white stax, we run essentially strictly better versions of all those cards now...why not run an updated version of that deck?

[(nameless one)]

Can we make a U/R version of the deck with welder and thirst.. would be awesome if it worked :O :D

My version runs both Welder and Fabricate. I am contemplating on running Thirst for Knowledge in that spot as it would have more synergy with Welder but Fabricate has been valuable to me. If I needed a threat, it found it for me. If I needed an acceleration, it found it for me. If I needed a recurring piece (I've been running Scarecrone in tandem with Welder, I am testing with Crucible again), it found it for me. You essentially get the point right?


I'm very much a fan of the "screw with people" mentality. As such, Naked Singularity looks like fun....but I think is probably best with a Welder out, yes? That way you can avoid the whole issue of paying the upkeep. Of course, Daze and obviously Force of Will still sidestep it, so I'm not sure how relevant it could be. Possibly in a stax/control version of the list?

My current list no longer uses Welder; mostly because I want to reduce the whole issue of waiting a turn to abuse him. The Welder and Metalworker are weak points in the plan - IF we untap with them, we often win....but with a field full of counterspells - including Mental Misstep, which will be popular for the first few tournaments, even if it's not tournament quality - and Swords, it just seems easier to avoid that route entirely and focus on a control aspect. And if Welder is gone, then I feel that both Sundering Titan and Myr Battlesphere lose a lot of their awesomeness; Sundering Titan is most powerful when he's being bounced in and out of play, and Myr Battlesphere when it makes a stream of tokens. At the very least, I think the Titan can be replaced.

Has anyone tried a Stax build with this? 4x Chalice, 4x Trinisphere, 4x Tangle Wire main? You'd still have a majority of your acceleration, and your beaters (Lodestone Golem, Wurmcoil, Forgemaster and Hellkite/Colossus), but you'd be able to switch from aggro to control easier. Looking at old legacy mono-white stax, we run essentially strictly better versions of all those cards now...why not run an updated version of that deck?

Naked Singularity would only be good in Welder builds.

I would never ever cut Welders, even if MM is running rampant in the format. Welder enables broken things and if your opponents spend their resources on it, its less answer for your robots that are actual threats. I used to run 3 Welder (along with 2 Scarecrones) but I have been thinking of bumping Welder up to 4 again.

I was thinking of a Stax build as well, but not on the main. I played the mirror on Cockatrice two weeks ago, though I won because of Welder, the build looked awesome.

To people who play Workshop decks in Vintage: how effective is Trinisphere when it comes to disrupting. if it can outweigh the pros over the cons of being a singleton, it might be justifiable to only run Trinisphere as a one or two-of in Legacy MUD.

[Hopo]

To people who play Workshop decks in Vintage: how effective is Trinisphere when it comes to disrupting. if it can outweigh the pros over the cons of being a singleton, it might be justifiable to only run Trinisphere as a one or two-of in Legacy MUD.

Trinisphere is restricted in vintage because it is too disruptive. It is devastating during the first two turns so you basically want it in your opening hand if you play it. 1 or 2 copies doesn't help there.

[(nameless one)]

Trinisphere is restricted in vintage because it is too disruptive. It is devastating during the first two turns so you basically want it in your opening hand if you play it. 1 or 2 copies doesn't help there.

Isn't 3sphere too disruptive too in Legacy if you drop it during the first two turns? Maybe not to all decks but most of them.

[kingtk3]

The main purpose of trinisphere in T1 is to prevent your opponent to play moxes: a typical T1 build would run 14-16 lands along the Moxes, so if the artifacts doesn't see the board you may be stuck with one or two lands with the rest of the game.
Also turn 1 -> trinisphere is quite easy with Workshop and sol-land + moxes (real ones), hence the restriction of trinisphere (personally I would have restricted workshop, especially after the printing of lodestone, but that's another story). Moreover, trini is often coupled with smokestack in order to lock the opponent.

In legacy people play more lands and will suffer less from a trinisphere, unless you find a way to deal with their turn one drop AND to prevent them to reach 3 mana.

[(nameless one)]

The main purpose of trinisphere in T1 is to prevent your opponent to play moxes: a typical T1 build would run 14-16 lands along the Moxes, so if the artifacts doesn't see the board you may be stuck with one or two lands with the rest of the game.
Also turn 1 -> trinisphere is quite easy with Workshop and sol-land + moxes (real ones), hence the restriction of trinisphere (personally I would have restricted workshop, especially after the printing of lodestone, but that's another story). Moreover, trini is often coupled with smokestack in order to lock the opponent.

In legacy people play more lands and will suffer less from a trinisphere, unless you find a way to deal with their turn one drop AND to prevent them to reach 3 mana.

Now I see. So essentially, 3Sphere is a 4 or nothing. I don't really know what to cut on my main to afford running a playset. I would love to see a more Stax-oriented MUD list.

Currently, I'm running both Wasteland and Rishadan Port in my mana base. If I keep drawing threats, its fine but if I keep drawing lands, they might as well be lands that will stop my opponent from developing his/her side of the board.

Its been working so far.

[deadlock]

Trini was discarded in earlier discussions of this thread and I kinda agree. Personally I would add Tanglewire before Trini, but I dont think that there is room for either. Screwing with your opponents with Waste and Golem (+Crucible / Titan if you run it) is good, but I wouldnt comit to much to this plan.

Jaco wrote a nice article where he talks about MUD to, check it: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1546
He made some good points about Mox and the upcoming Mental Misstep metagame.
While I still think that Welder is extremly powerful, being able to run Chalice main is very strong too, it may become a meta choice. In Zoo heavy metas the (blue) Chalice version looks stronger and in metas with more Merfolk or other removal light decks Welder might be better.
Back to his choices, how do others think about Mox Diamond? If we remove it, what should take its place? At least single basic looks good, because of producing colored mana and Path to Exile. After that either more basics, Darksteel Citadels or Rishadan Ports?
While Thoughtcast is not particular powerful in its effect, it is also very easy to cast / not a huge commitment like Fact or even Stroke.
I agree with his addition of Karn as a catch all card. His biggest weakness is that he is not an artifact, but otherwise he is very powerful. He can be put down even against aggro, because of his huge life. Running 2-3 maindeck or sideboard looks promising in my opinion.
The same is true for Phyrexian Metamorph, which is easier to cast than Duplicant and can be useful even if the enemy doesnt have anything scary down by simply copying one of our own dudes.

Here is a sample blue based list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [TSP] Island (4)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph

// Spells
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

Blue sources might be too low, but can easily be upped by adding eithe Mox Diamonds back in or Island instead of the Darksteel Citadels.
Like Arthur I think that Myr Battlesphere is unneeded, also Titan is a lot less appealing in a Welderless version (even there it might be overkill, as you should win anyway with a Forgemaster activation and an active Welder).
The 4 Key 3 Chalice maindeck config seems good and was already run in the old blue Tinker lists I posted a link to a some posts back.
I like how this version packs a lot of removal, which increases the decks versatility and reduces its glass cannon factor (together with the removal of the Moxen).
Sideboard needs to be redesigned, but the base of 4 Revoker and 4 Thorn still stands.

[Dune Echo]

@Dune: IMO, both the SCG lists arent in top 2-4, because they ignored the power of the little goblin against blue decks!
Actually, from the SCG Legacy Opens alone, that's not something to be automatically concluded:
Forgemaster Combo (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36630) (2011-02-06, 2nd place, Red base)
Welder Red (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36846) (2011-02-27, 15th place, Red base)
Metalworker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38176) (2011-05-01, 5th place, Blue base)
Metalworker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38339) (2011-05-15, 8th place, Blue base)
Metalworker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38351) (2011-05-15, 14th place, Blue base)

Maybe if we had some more statistics of the performance of both versions to extrapolate results from, perhaps it could be proven that Goblin Welder is more consistent.

Also, I'm not totally sold on the idea of running Thoughtcast over Tezzeret's Gambit. Tezzeret's Gambit is playable even without a blue source of mana at 3 CMC (i.e. off a Grim Monolith or Metalworker). Thoughtcast at least requires a Seat of the Synod or Mox on the board.

[Al-ucard]

I tested the blue version last friday and I have to say that I loved it! So I have 2 conclusions:

1. Karn Liberated as a one off is useful.
2. Phyrexian metamorph its amazing! Its soo versatile that I always love to draw him. I remember winning a match against tempo fairies copying the opponent SoFI

For now I will test this list:

18 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sead of the synod
4 Wasteland
2 Island

20 Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

22 Others
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thoughtcast
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Chalice of the void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Mox Opal

60 Total


Thoughts?

[jtwilkins]

I tested the blue version last friday and I have to say that I loved it! So I have 2 conclusions:

1. Karn Liberated as a one off is useful.
2. Phyrexian metamorph its amazing! Its soo versatile that I always love to draw him. I remember winning a match against tempo fairies copying the opponent SoFI
Thoughts?

Karn can be useful in this deck but with a 1 off he is just a random draw. I think 2 is a min until there is some way to find or tutor him.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Also, I'm not totally sold on the idea of running Thoughtcast over Tezzeret's Gambit. Tezzeret's Gambit is playable even without a blue source of mana at 3 CMC (i.e. off a Grim Monolith or Metalworker). Thoughtcast at least requires a Seat of the Synod or Mox on the board.
There is one notable difference:
You cast Thoughtcast, draw 2, and cast something.
You cast Tezzeret's Gambit, draw 2, and pass the turn.

[(nameless one)]

Karn can be useful in this deck but with a 1 off he is just a random draw. I think 2 is a min until there is some way to find or tutor him.

What about in junction with Gamble? Yes, that tutor IS essentially gambling but if it works, it works right? And it works with other artifacts + Welder.

My current list runs 4 Welders and 2 Fabricates, though I will probably switch them with either Thoughtcast or Thirst for Knowledge. I like TfK better since it has a synergy with Welder (discard an artifact and weld it back into play)


There is one notable difference:
You cast Thoughtcast, draw 2, and cast something.
You cast Tezzeret's Gambit, draw 2, and pass the turn.

I seriously do not get this, can you elaborate on this please?

[tsabo_tavoc]

I seriously do not get this, can you elaborate on this please?

Thoughtcast costs 1, Gambit costs 3, and the two mana difference can matter in many games, probably more than the color screw (the Thoughtcast builds also have Mox Diamond).

[(nameless one)]

Thoughtcast costs 1, Gambit costs 3, and the two mana difference can matter in many games, probably more than the color screw (the Thoughtcast builds also have Mox Diamond).

Oh, that is true. For some reason I am thinking of Thirst for Knowledge when you said Thoughtcast.

I definitely agree with Thoughcast via Moxes. I myself run Fabricate/TfK (still testing which one helps more) without any Seat of the Synod. Granted, I am not running a 4-of of the mentioned blue spells (to slots dedicated to either one). I essentially count the Moxes as the deck's dual.

[slaughtercult]

I've been tweaking my list for a while and it looks like this...

4 goblin welder
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
2 wurmcoil engine
2 myr battlesphere
1 steel hellkite
1 duplicant

4 grim monolith
4 voltaic key
2 sensei's divining top
2 lightning greaves
2 mox diamond
2 mox opal
1 myr incubator
1 staff of domination

4 great furnace
4 ancient tomb
4 crystal vein
4 wasteland
2 darksteel citadel
2 mountain

Myr Incubator wins games against decks packing heavy creature removal and combos well with battlesphere as a means to do damage thru blockers. And it has that 'what the crap is that' shock value to it when my deck poops out 30 myr tokens at the end of my opponent's turn.

I am slowly agreeing on cutting top for something more useful like 2 fabricate/trash for treasure/more greaves. it hasn't really given me the card advantage i'm looking for.

i wanna take this to the scg in Indianapolis. anyone familiar with the meta game out there? if so, which version would run better in said meta?

[Anarky87]

I've been trying this deck out in the past month and while it's really explosive, it seems to just pack it to a removal+counter. A lot of times I'll have ridiculous openers, powering out a fatty turn 2, then my opponent just shrugs and plows it on his turn. Leaving me with a board of acceleration and not much going on in hand. I tend to play BUG/RUG tempo Thresh a lot and usually if I counter their first threat and follow that up with a Waste on their Sol land, it's gg. Sometimes post-board they're able to steal a game or 2 with a Chalice, but I've also been able to just play through it, counter/remove their threat > Waste Tomb/City and win.

I like the idea of Goblin Welder, but he usually gets instantly removed/MM'd. The only thing I could think to maybe shore up some of that would be to just drop Welder and add Chalice MD to stop StP, PtE, Bolt, Demise, Mental Misstep, etc. Which would mean going blue I imagine. Still same explosiveness, but with a little more protection.

[NukeMoose]

I've been trying this deck out in the past month and while it's really explosive, it seems to just pack it to a removal+counter. A lot of times I'll have ridiculous openers, powering out a fatty turn 2, then my opponent just shrugs and plows it on his turn. Leaving me with a board of acceleration and not much going on in hand. I tend to play BUG/RUG tempo Thresh a lot and usually if I counter their first threat and follow that up with a Waste on their Sol land, it's gg. Sometimes post-board they're able to steal a game or 2 with a Chalice, but I've also been able to just play through it, counter/remove their threat > Waste Tomb/City and win.

I like the idea of Goblin Welder, but he usually gets instantly removed/MM'd. The only thing I could think to maybe shore up some of that would be to just drop Welder and add Chalice MD to stop StP, PtE, Bolt, Demise, Mental Misstep, etc. Which would mean going blue I imagine. Still same explosiveness, but with a little more protection.

If you are having trouble with Removal+Counter then Welder is the last card you want to take out. Chalice gives some protection but it is dead weigh in a lot of match ups and is better regulated to the SB. Welder is always a bomb and saying it gets removed often is never a great argument to take something out-in fact it's evidence that it's a very important/powerful card.

The deck relies on Metalworker to due silly things, and anything thing that can reccur metalworker (and anything else) or take the heat off of MW is good. A topdecked Chalice is often "meh" to Zoo, Vial Aggro, Dredge, Stompy, etc where a turn 5 Welder can still do great things.

If removal is a problem, up the Lightning Greaves count, or my personal favorite anti StP card "Thousand Year Elixir". Summoning Trap from the SB laughs at FoW/MM/Daze.

I have found that turn 1 Welder plays are can also be bad plays. Especially running TYE, you can sandbag welders in your hand and use them as reanimation spells since they can't stop it without a counter like they can Stping in response to attaching Lightning Greaves.

[Anarky87]

I'm already running 3 Greaves, but it hasn't really cut down on opponents just killing critters in response to the equipment. Or if they don't have a removal at the time, countering the threat. I can't remember the last time I was able to play a Welder, then untap with it. But I'm sure it's good if it sticks.

And sometimes it wasn't even them removing my robots. Sometimes it was enough to counter a Monolith, and Waste a Sol land, which massively slowed down my ability to pump out fatties, which let them sculpt a controlling hand. I might have to just try TYE. Greaves has only really been awesome to me if a) I could win without it b) Opponent kept a hand they probably shouldn't have. Otherwise everything just gets nuked in response.

[NukeMoose]

I'm already running 3 Greaves, but it hasn't really cut down on opponents just killing critters in response to the equipment. Or if they don't have a removal at the time, countering the threat. I can't remember the last time I was able to play a Welder, then untap with it. But I'm sure it's good if it sticks.

And sometimes it wasn't even them removing my robots. Sometimes it was enough to counter a Monolith, and Waste a Sol land, which massively slowed down my ability to pump out fatties, which let them sculpt a controlling hand. I might have to just try TYE. Greaves has only really been awesome to me if a) I could win without it b) Opponent kept a hand they probably shouldn't have. Otherwise everything just gets nuked in response.

If that's the problem then definitely try out TYE, it's been worth its weigh in gold for me. Yesterday I went to a 3/1 split (rather than 2/2) of TYE/Greaves and it still runs good. Waiting a turn to attack is rarely a problem since our monsters are badass, we really just want haste to use our 12 critters ASAP (Welder, Worker, Master). 1 Greaves is still nice as I often search for it off a second activation of Forgemaster to equip BSC for an instant win.

The fact that you can also untap creaters (rather than artifacts like key) lets you do more silly Welder Stuff.

[ivanpei]

Hi guys, I wrote an article about White splash MUD here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21136-Solving-Null-Rod-and-inconsistency-with-White-Splash-MUD

Appreciate it if you could leave some comments. Cheers!

[Charlatan]

Appreciate it if you could leave some comments. Cheers!

Your splash doesn't make any sense to me. And in fact, I don't know why did you change the MD if you just add white cards in the SB.

Against Null Rod, the best option is Shatering Spree or anything with red.

I really apreciate the Blue list, and if you fear so much Null Rod, just SB 4 anull...

[ivanpei]

And how do you plan on casting shattering spree? Your great furnaces/moxes don't tap for red anymore. You can't cast it at all.

And do you really want to keep blue open the whole game if you really fear the rod? Isn't it better to just run out the seal and then tap out each turn as normal? What if you topdeck annul? My list plays forests/canopies so I can actually cast a topdecked seal or primordium to kill null rod.

[deadlock]

Nice to see that there still people who put effort in this deck. I think you are spot on - Seal really looks like the best answer for Null Rod AND Energy Flux.
In my opinion you have to consider the following factors too:
- How often do we have to face these cards? My impression is that there some decks with Flux in the board as a 2of and fewer with a single Null Rod as E. Tutor target (this is of course generalized).
- Which leads to directly to the next point - how fast come these pieced down? Now this is the thing, my claim is that they dont come down really fast as they are not played as a 3-4 of most of the time. This means we often can ramp some mana before they get casted in the midgame.
Because of that and as mentionend the fact that they are not too widely played leads me to believe that we can get away with running a more powerful and versatile card: Karn.
Karn's merit is that he is good in a large amount of matchups where Seal is not. On top of removing problematic permanents he gives you inevitability because you remove their hand over time. Also he is extremly large and can shrug off smaler beats.
Most importantly he doesnt require a commitment to white, which is biggest weakness of Seal - white doesnt give you anything else than Seal. I dont count Horizon Canopy as you dont run the combination with Crucible in the side.

I dont want to discuss the Welder version currently, as I stopped playing it because of MM and being able to run Chalice main in the blue build.

Before talking about a blue version of MUD, I want to comment your maindeck:
- Three instead two Lightning Greaves: I consider LG extremly good in this deck for obvious reasons and also tried 3 Greaves, but to realize that I never want to have / draw two copies. Maindeck space is extremyl tight and therefore I am running two at the moment.
- Revoker main: Interesting choice, Revoker is definitly very good in a lot of matchups, but not in everyone. Therefore I consider it as a conditional card, which is better played in the board. These tight maindeck slots play are role too again.
- Titan in a none-Welder build: I dont consider Titan in a build without Welder, because you cannot decimate their mana in a way Welder can. Just doing one round of destructions is not enough.
- 3 Mox Diamond with 18 lands: While this works out better than with 16, its still not realiable. Just having solid land drops is better in my expierience. Also not running 3 Mox Opal is a mistake I believe.
- Maybe the biggest weakness of your build is that it doesnt have a draw engine. In the red build SDT or more importantly SDT + Key is quite decent. I dont consider the combination of these two cards cute as they give you one additional card for two mana a turn, also scaling with the number of Keys you have. This is huge in my opinion.
This deck runs a lot of mana cards, which dont threaten the opponent directly. This leads to games where you have a lot of Mana but nothing to cast with it. Having a solid draw-engine is therefore essential in my opinion.

Now I want to point out some of the merits of a blue build by discussing a concrete list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TSP] Island (4)
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
3 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [NPH] Spellskite

-Why blue? Biggest reason is Chalice main and good options for card draw. This is Fact or Fiction in my case, which I run over Thoughtcast currently. While Thoughtcast is very efficient, it is also very underpowerd it terms of digging capabilties. Fact digs five cards deep instead of two, this is huge.
Also we have a lod of mana production, which enables Fact. Compared to Affinity, which runs TC as they cannot afford a larger spell like Fact.
Secondary reason is easier support of two in my opinion very strong cards Phyrexian Metamorph and Spellskite.
PM is an extremly flexible card: Answer to strong legendary creatures, copies strong creatures like Tombstalker and Tarmo and acts as a bolster for any artifact you currently have in play like an additional Lodstone Golem or whatnot. It is also quite cheap with its alternate cost of three mana, which is very good against mana denying decks like TA.
Sidenote: I played against Goblins and he went first turn Lackey into Siege Gang, with me copying the Siege Gang with a Metamorph :D Reminds me of the Thing.
Spellskite is a board card I am currently testing and which I am quite pleased with till now. Others have listed its advantages already.
You can theoretically run this two cards in none-blue builds, but having access to the none-life demaning cost is good because of the already taxing Acient Tomb.
- Manabase: I considered Port or Citadel in the Island slot, but just having solid basics is the strongest I think. They give you stability against Wasteland and the additional blue you need in a build without Mox Diamond. It also helps a little bit when facing Back to Basics or Energy Flux. Port is also good ofcourse. Citadel slightly less, because we already have enough artifacts.
- Blightsteel main: Same as your build, I consider him as mandatory in the maindeck at this point. I have many games where is just and very reliable I-Win button. Especially in the scenarios where Lightning Greaves are involved, which make the attack immediate instead of two turns later. He greatly increases the value / threat of Forgemaster, even against decks, which run STP / Path he sometimes can slip through fast enough before they find them, unlike Wurmcoil, which I reduced two three to make room for Blightsteel.
- Rest should be considered normal including the board. I still need to test more, especially the Dredge matchup, where I might find myself a little helpless with the current board. I considered Thorn stronger than Amethyst, based on the discussion / comments on the first few pages of this thread. Do you consider Trini stronger thanThorn against Ichorid?
- Karn has already been discussed, but I want to repeat that I consider him as extremtly strong because of his first two abilties. He is strong enough to run him in the maindeck, but I dont have enough space and he is a good board choice because most of the really problematic permanents appear in game 2/3 as already talked about.

Hope you can gain some value out of these comments.

[sco0ter]

Hi,

I have a very basic question. I recently interested in MUD and was looking for some decklist. Since this archetype seems to be far more played in Vintage I found a lot of Vintage decklists.
One thing I noted: Every, EVERY Vintage deck I saw ran:

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Compared to the fewer Legacy decklists I found, all those pieces were absent and instead ran more threats or draw instead of lock.

Any reason behind this?

Another question: What do you think about Solemn Simulacrum as he is good with Welder and stalls aggro.

[Final Fortune]

Have people tried running Batterskull as a beater slot yet? It's obviously not as good as Worm Coil Engine or Lodestone Golemn, but it's extremely frustrating for aggro and control to get thru' and this deck does have the mana to cast it, equip it and return it to hand pretty easily. Seems like a decent 1 or 2x along the lines of Hellion or Duplicant. Any thoughts?

[ivanpei]

@ deadlock, you have many valid points. I agree with you on card draw. I feel that the deck need some sort of dig. I have stuck to green however and am playing sylvan library. Seal of primordium from the board is not all that narrow IMO. It does many things other than kill hate pieces.

Spellskite is an excellent sideboard card. Will play a few there. I'm not sure about metamorph in the md, it looks like the weakest card in your lost. Against goblins and merfolk, it is absolutely terrible. It is excellent vs tarmogoyf and emrakul but other than that, it's not that great.

I have updated my list and have totally cut keys. Chalice should be a 4 off IMO. So many decks just fold to it. I don't consider compulsory to this deck. I think too many people feel that grim monolith is not that great if you don't run keys. I disagree as using grim As a one shot accel which can be untapped if needed is fine as well.

Fact or fiction is strong as it digs deep and only costs 1 blue. What i like about sylvan is that it is very easy to cast early and can dig you out of trouble. If you are casting fact, you should have plenty of mana and not in bad shape. Sylvan can help you recover even if your mana base is torn to shreds by junk or team America. That's what I like about green in addition to the sb seals and chokes.

By not running keys, my cheap artifact counts drops, I cut wastes for darksteel citadels and they were excellent in testing. I very rarely use my wastes in reality. I only use them when I am ahead with a robot on the table. Otherwise I keep them around to cast any topdecked robots.

You've made me think about my md revoker slots. I've cut down to 3. I mean its bean great against alot of things but usually I find that we can just power through alot of crap with this deck. I might shift them to the board in that case. I'm still unsure of the karns. They seem strong but I am worried about the disynergy. I will give it a test though.

[NukeMoose]

Hi,

I have a very basic question. I recently interested in MUD and was looking for some decklist. Since this archetype seems to be far more played in Vintage I found a lot of Vintage decklists.
One thing I noted: Every, EVERY Vintage deck I saw ran:

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Compared to the fewer Legacy decklists I found, all those pieces were absent and instead ran more threats or draw instead of lock.

Any reason behind this?

Another question: What do you think about Solemn Simulacrum as he is good with Welder and stalls aggro.


Vintage is all about power. Well, not all but a lot of it is. Decklists/strategies are skewed because of it, so MUD in T1 is way more prison than robot beatdown. Chalice is very important at stopping all the cantrips as well as the fast mana (Moxen, Lotus, Crypt). Most of the curves are VERY low, and thorn/sphere really bog down your opponent. The presence of Mishra's Workshop gives MUD a huge advantage of casting high CC cards and paying sphere effects.

In legacy, thorn can be less than stellar (lots of critters and Vial is a lot more popular). The 1 mana extra means a lot less, usually, than in T1. Tangle wire is awesome, and I could see legacy using it but so far most people have concluded it's not needed since we don't run the rest of the prison cards.

In short, different format: different strategies.

Solemn is okay but not what the deck wants out of a 4 drop. He only gets basic land (some lists are all nonbasic and others just have a single mountain/island) so he's not going to search for a whole lot. The speedbump/draw is nice, but racing up to Wurmcoil, Forgemaster or something else is generally just better against aggro.

[ivanpei]

Scg open 10th place. Mono brown mud with md 4 chalice, 4 trini, 20 lands and ZERO voltaic key. I like his list, don't agree with trinis main and so many silver bullet robots but otherwise, very solid.

[deadlock]

Have people tried running Batterskull as a beater slot yet? It's obviously not as good as Worm Coil Engine or Lodestone Golem
You already answered your question ;-)

Thanks for your comments invanpei, here are some notes:
- Phyrexian Metamorph: I agree that he is not that good against Tribal, copying SGC was a nice opporunity, but I still side him out g2/g3 against those decks.
However I consider tribal to be a decent matchup as they cannot interact with you that easily. Nuts draws from both decks can be very hard to beat though. Its a little bit swingy.
Back to PM, besides Goyf he copies anything scary from your opponents deck AND he is very cheap mana wise. Together with the fact that aggro-control decks can us give some trouble as they can restrict mana efficiently. PM shines here, he might not look fancy, but he does a lot for the deck in my opinion, especially because of his low cost. You might not catch your oppent with a Painter / Stone in play, but without mana to activate it a lot of times. But just copying Goyf is a very good way to drag the game out till you can get something scary out. Sidenote: I already copied my own BSC with it in a game where he had a Maze of Ith and I had now waste ready.
This is a very important concept for this deck and was achieved by running Tangle Wire in old Extended. Metamorph and Golem to an extent can serve the same role as they stale out till a Wurmcoil / Forgemaster or what not.
If you still now like him, run at least one between main / side against Progenitus and Emrakul, although its no the best move to tinker one up - better to have a couple of them and draw / Fact into them.

- Chalice / Key: You made me thinking about the 4th Chalice in the main and currently I am testing 4 Chalice and 3 Key. I definitly would not cut Key from the deck, as together with Monolith they form a solid mana engine besides Metalworker and even with MW in play - regardless of you artifact count in hand. That their obvious dissynergy (this is not a word I think^^) is not a problem dont need to be talked about, as it is a highly conditional dissynergy.

-Green splash: Like this choice over the white splash. Please keep me updated on how Library is performing for you. My fear is that it performs a little bit like SDT as the deck is not aggresive enough in some cases to use keep a card for 4 life. Definitly stay at 4 Wurmcoil with Library around.

-Cutting Wasteland: You are right about that you cannot afford to use very aggressively most of the times. There still two cases where it shines: Sometimes we can gain a hugle lead if we see the opponent struggle with their mana development, this is the case of opportunity (we dont want to do this always, a false Waste activation can cost a game). The other case is to kill an annoying land like Mishras or Maze of Ith.
Waste is powerful, but I can still understand that you want to cut it. I running Port instead of Waste strictly worse? Port can dissrupt, but doesnt reduce our mana income in the long run like Waste does.
A small change I already did to my manbase is that I did cut the 4th Island for a single Academy Ruins. 10 blue still looks okay and an active Ruins can be huge in the mid to lategame.

-Revoker main: I think the decks creator reasoning for not running them in the main was that he doesnt know on the play with a Revoker in hand what to use it on.
Also it can be a dead card in some matchups. Compared to Metamorph which can at least copy one of your own artifacts (this comparison might be a bit random, but they both are low cost artifacts - take the same slot in the md).

SCG list: I dont like it that much, for reasons stated in my posts. (No draw, strange md choices etc).
Trini main looks like a mistake to me, but I am considering it in the board as I stated in my last post. Still having troubles with Ichorid and Trini looks stronger in this matchup than Thorn.
However Ratchet Bomb in the board looks interesting as does Contagion Engine, which I didnt know before. Bomb looks like it could profite from Key by a large amount, so I am irritated that he did cut it.
Contagion looks like a good answer to lots of small creatures, but is it strong enough without Welder? The problem I see is that you cannot handle the creatures cast after Engine is in play without a Welder to go nuts with it. We still would need to look at specific scenarios, where going for a Contagion Engine with a Forgemaster activation becomes stronger than going for BSC or Wurmcoil.

[(nameless one)]

Is anyone still running the Welder Version?

Also, has Chalice ever affected Key? I mean for the most part you want to run Chalice at one on turn one. Doesn't that leave Key dead in you hand?

Also on the blue list, I noticed that you're running 8 blue mana sources. Is there a way you can consistently cast a spell with double blue on it? (I'm thinking of Transmute Artifact)

[slaughtercult]

I still run the welder version and am very happy with it. in the sensei spot i wanna try some other means of card draw without color splash. something like browbeat or goblin lore (preferably with a welder in play).

has anyone tested something like Temporal Aperture or Planar Portal? They may be too expensive to use most of the time...

[Final Fortune]

I still run the welder version and am very happy with it. in the sensei spot i wanna try some other means of card draw without color splash. something like browbeat or goblin lore (preferably with a welder in play).

has anyone tested something like Temporal Aperture or Planar Portal? They may be too expensive to use most of the time...

Both were worse than Grafted Skullcap, but I think SDT's ability to enable Mox Opal off Artifact Land, SDT, Opal go is non-trivial.

I'm not certain Phyrexian Metamorph is worth the MD space, mainly because it only equalized the board state via Tarmogoyf.dec that are designed to assymetrically win the Tarmogoyf wars with either Exalted or Equipment.

I've been pretty happy with Batterskull in the Duplicant/Hellion slot, it does a good job of stabilizing vs. zoo and Goblins.

[deadlock]

Many people expressed concerns about P. Metamorph and I have to give credit to them. Statistical analysis of my boarding plans resulted in an over 50 % rate of siding out PM. So I am willing to either remove 1,2 or all 3.
Instead I opted to try the 21 land, as I still find myself screwed with my 20 land. The other slots are debatable, but I am thinking about moving a Spellskite to the maindeck, as it looks like it is the most common card to be sided in. I could also go for the 3rd L. Greaves, but I already expressed my conern in not wanting to see them twice in a game usually.
Other than that there still a lot of options, so I have to think and test more before coming back to post definite changes.

[(nameless one)]

Instead of PM or Batterskull, why not run multiples of Duplicants. My friend was telling me that why not run creature removal? I still find Peacekeepers to be a pain sometimes. Bob on the other side of the field also sucks.

Also deadlock, are you running the Welder version or the Thoughtcast version? What are those 21 lands of yours?

[Final Fortune]

Instead of PM or Batterskull, why not run multiples of Duplicants. My friend was telling me that why not run creature removal? I still find Peacekeepers to be a pain sometimes. Bob on the other side of the field also sucks.

Also deadlock, are you running the Welder version or the Thoughtcast version? What are those 21 lands of yours?

Both Duplicat and Steel Hellkite are ok choices, the problem tho' is there is an upper bound of 6 and 7cc creatures you want/need in the deck.

Spellskite seems pretty awesome, it's better than Lightning Greaves in terms of having more relevant "Shroud" and an ass big enough to stop a Nacatl.

[deadlock]

My list is a couple of pages back. I plan to test 5 Island, 3 Waste, 1 Academy as compared to the configuration in the list. 4 Waste / 4 Island might be better, but currently I really like to have these Basic Islands. Some people expressed negative feelings concerning Waste. Still thinking that cutting it completly is a mistake, but going down to 3 could be good.

With no SDT, no Mox Diamonds and just 3 Key in my version, do you guys still think that 3 Mox Opal are still warranted or should I go down to 2? This is bothering me, as I dramatically increased the land count compared to the orginal.
I always fear that my mana / none business to business ratio becomes too high, on the other hand a slight mana flood is not as bad as a mana screw - all the gas is dead without the mana.

Why does people come up with Batterskull? Isnt Wurmcoil strictly better in this deck for one more mana?

Duplicant is very strong, especially in the Welder version. I might add one back into the board, as I think that PM is stronger in the maindeck (for the blue version at least), because of the mana cost and its versatility.
In general you dont want to remove (all of) your opponents creatures, but instead play your own ones, which are supposed to outclass theirs. Comparable to Dreadstill.
I am still not sure about PM, as doesnt need a mana engine piece like Worker or Grim to be online in order to cast him. It looks like the best "relevant" card at three mana (four) mana.

[(nameless one)]

Both Duplicat and Steel Hellkite are ok choices, the problem tho' is there is an upper bound of 6 and 7cc creatures you want/need in the deck.

Spellskite seems pretty awesome, it's better than Lightning Greaves in terms of having more relevant "Shroud" and an ass big enough to stop a Nacatl.

As important as shroud is, haste is also a big factor behind Greaves. I am running 3 Greaves right now (very close list to Bomholt's). Yes, it sucks having multiple Greaves but it's also a good Forgemaster fodder.

Spellskitters does provide an early body outside of Metalworker (and Welders)


My list is a couple of pages back. I plan to test 5 Island, 3 Waste, 1 Academy as compared to the configuration in the list. 4 Waste / 4 Island might be better, but currently I really like to have these Basic Islands. Some people expressed negative feelings concerning Waste. Still thinking that cutting it completly is a mistake, but going down to 3 could be good.

With no SDT, no Mox Diamonds and just 3 Key in my version, do you guys still think that 3 Mox Opal are still warranted or should I go down to 2? This is bothering me, as I dramatically increased the land count compared to the orginal.
I always fear that my mana / none business to business ratio becomes too high, on the other hand a slight mana flood is not as bad as a mana screw - all the gas is dead without the mana.

Why does people come up with Batterskull? Isnt Wurmcoil strictly better in this deck for one more mana?

Duplicant is very strong, especially in the Welder version. I might add one back into the board, as I think that PM is stronger in the maindeck (for the blue version at least), because of the mana cost and its versatility.
In general you dont want to remove (all of) your opponents creatures, but instead play your own ones, which are supposed to outclass theirs. Comparable to Dreadstill.
I am still not sure about PM, as doesnt need a mana engine piece like Worker or Grim to be online in order to cast him. It looks like the best "relevant" card at three mana (four) mana.

I am currently running 3 Diamonds and 2 Opals. The reason is that I am not running any artifact lands. While Great Furnace does up the artifact count, it doesn't help when they answer your only colored mana source. I think Mountain is still the way to go (or maybe 2/2 Mountain-Furnace split)

As for Duplicant, when I get time, I'll test 2-3 on the main. I am currently running 1 right now.

Speaking of Hellkites, is it relegated back to the side? I still think it's a great Forgemaster target. It does help against any random swarm.dec.

When I get a free time this month, I'll tinker with my list again, but I think I'll stick with my Welder list (screw you MM). I am currently running a R/U version that has Thirst for Knowledge.

[stasis]

i sleeved up the blue verision and in my sideboard atm i got:

3 trini
3 chalice
2 crusible
3 revoker (best card after chalice in the board so far)
3 defence grid
1 sundering titan (doing shit imo) will change to duplicant nr 2

i been playtesting some against goblin and i find it a very hard machup. It might be because my goblin friend's deck is colored by my MuD apperence.

he also play stax and that was shit after boarding until i added crusible instead of myr battlesphere that was to slow.

I gotta say i find it hard to sideout stuff.

[Son_Gozen]

Hi peepz

I went to our legacy tournament with list called "WB MUDness":

MD:
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors

4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
1 Mindslaver
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Staff Of Domination

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere

SB:
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crush
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Mycosynth Lattice

Round 1: Mono U Control (2-1)
The first game he let me play everything and couldn't handle anything so i went for Metalworker + Staff combo and drop all Lodestones, then Colossus + Greaves and swing for the infect win.
I sideboard in Mycosynth Lattice and Spine out..
In the second game i keep a quite slow hand nothing really scary except for Worker and Wurmcoil... He plays Sower and grabs my Wurmcoil and we keep stalling until he drops Energy Flux i hardcast the Lattice ut he counters it and beats me with Sower + my Wurmcoil. I didn't see any answer and he wins...
In the third game i get my second turn Worker then third turn Forgemaster. He plays Energy Flux. I got Ancient Tomb, Metalworker, Grim Monolith and Forgemaster. I pay for Worker and Forgemaster, sac my Monolith, draw a card and cast 2 artifacts, then tinker for Lattice... he scoops... I was really glad that my idea against Flux worked...
1-0

Round 2: Mono W (0-2)
Nothing really spectacular happens he got the answers for my threats and i don't see more than 2 Lands in both games.... really sad but this happens...
1-1

Round 3: Mono G Combo Elves (2-0)
He starts and keep a hand with no land, and doesn't see a land so i start beating him with fat robos..
I boarded in 3 Trinisphere and 3 Chalice.. He starts with Llanowar Elf and i resolve a first turn Worker. He plays Quirion Ranger and then Elvish Archdruid.. I generate 14 mana through Worker and Key and play Trinisphere, Lodestone, and Duplicant to get his Archdruid.. he can't really go off and i start to beat him until he kills himself with pact...
2-1

Round 4: White Weenies(2-0)
Nothing really spectacular.. I keep a hand with Monolith, Key, Tomb, Worker, Forgemaster and some random Robots i swing with Steel Hellkite and wrath everything he has...
Second game i kept a similar hand to the one on my first game against him.. i resolved a first turn Forgemaster off Tomb, Monolith, Key and Mox Opal... but that lonely robot eats a Path.. Second Turn i lay another Forgemaster on the board and he eats another Path... Third turn i play Steel Hellkite and that one eats another Path o.O my 4th turn Wurmcoil resolves and stays on the board and i swing for the win with 2 Wurmcoils and Sundering Titan...
3-1

Round 5: BUG Landstill(1-2)
I start with Goblin Welder and it resolves so i play Lightning greaves in my second turn and equip welder..Third turn i resolve key, he lays down Standstill and beats me with Factories and i beat back with Welder for a few turns.. I go down to 4 life and discard Wurmcoil, because i got 8 handcards... i welder the Engine into play for Key... he scoops as i discard another Wurmcoil and welder it in for my Furnace...
Second Turn i didn't see anything scary so he beats me down with Factories..
Third game was lame, because i blocked my self with my own Trinisphere and didn't see any 3rd land...
3-2

Round 6: Dredge(0-2)
He just outruns me with tokens in both games, while i couldn't see any Hellkite oder Forgemaster -.-
3-3
I was the 14th place and won a Crucible Of Worlds

I was really glad to have the Mycsynth Lattice against Flux and Nullrod as there were 6 decks with one of these cards in the board... The Spine wasn't really great as i never tinkered it up like Metamorph.. I used Metamorph just once to kill a Jitte.... I will replace them with 2 basic Mountains, because i didn't like the fact that i didn't see more lands when i needed some...

[(nameless one)]

Sweet. I love the Mycosynth Lattice on the side. It's definitely going on my side (my sideboard right now: 4x Chalice of the Void/ 4x Thorn of Amethyst/ 4x Phyrexian Revoker/ 1x Naked Singularity/ 1x Mycosynth Lattice/ 1x open slot

On a different note, why did you choose Trinisphere over Thorn of Amethyst?

Also, why remove Phyrexian Metamorph? Is it not useful at all? I was thinking of running multiple Duplicants.

But like what you said, I think a minimum of 18 lands is necessary.

[Son_Gozen]

Well i've chosen Trinisphere over Thorn, because i expected a beatdown meta and i was right. There were 3 combo decks out of 34 and also 4 control decks..

I decided to try Mycosynth Lattice against Energy Flux and Null Rod, because i can tinker for it and it can really lock our opponents down. If our opponent plays Energy Flux he needs to decide in his upkeep if he wants to keep a land or the Flux, if he keeps the Flux we can tinker away the artifacts we don't want to pay for and swing for the win..
If our opponents try to play a Nullrod and we have a active Forgemaster we respond and go for Mycosynth Lattice and swing for the win with Forgemaster or any other creature we got.

About Metamorph: I never really tinkered it up, or sometimes it was just a dead draw, because i found nothing really good to copy... I think it can be useful, but i always wanted to get something else out of the deck..

[deadlock]

Just returned from a small local tournament, where I took first place and won a Usea with my red version. The deck is extremly strong and currently underplayed. Its also not a class cannon if you dont build it with just 16 lands.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Just returned from a small local tournament, where I took first place and won a Usea with my red version. The deck is extremly strong and currently underplayed. Its also not a class cannon if you dont build it with just 16 lands.

Congrats! Care to post your list and a short report?

[(nameless one)]

Congrats! Care to post your list and a short report?


Also, any secret techs that you wanna be shared would be awesome

[deadlock]

Always hungry for secret tech! Well about the tournament it was 5 rounds of which I won 4 and one draw against Enchantress.

In no particular order:
- Two games against none competitive decks, won' bother with these.

- Two games against Merfolk, which I consider a positive matchup. Also I didnt saw Energy Flux. In each match I dropped a game, first because I kept an akward hand with 2 SDT and lots of land, with him going for the Merfolk dream play: Vial into Standstill. In the other match, because I didnt draw business for a long time + Jitte.

- Enchantress, I consider this a good matchup too. First game first turn Golem, gg soon. Then game two he gets Enchantress effect + Solitary Confinment going and I start to realize that Hellkite doesnt work and that I have no answer to this.. I had the Forgemaster, but nothing to get, thats really depressing. G3 starts with around 10 minutes left and I try to win fast, but he gets a Confinment again, but without + draw effect. Extra turns are called and he has enough cards for SC to stall for the draw, lame.
For this reason I will add a single Mind Slaver to the board, as it is useful in other matchups too. Besides this I want to play two Karn to have some more options.

List:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [US] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
3 [MR] Lightning Greaves
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere

Notes:
I am pretty happy with the maindeck currently except that I will run 2 Steelhellkite and 2 Wurms in the future. Both compete for the same slots and a total amount of 4-5 seems right. I board out Wurm more often than Hellkite and I think the deck can get away with just two. 3/1 or 4/1 split is good too of course.
Also I am not sure if I should play Waste or Port. Waste is stronger in general, but I still feel that I need to maximize my mana. Looking forward to your opinion on this matter.
What do you think about the Welder count? My thinking is that three is the correct number, as we dont have a way to put stuff in our yard by ourselves besides Forgemaster. With 4 Welder I sometimes had the feeling that I have a Welder without anything to do with him.

Now about the sideboard. I constantly changing it, so it might seem horrible.
Explanation:
- P. Metamorph: Answer to Progenitus, gets sided in against NO and Show and Tell decks. One might be to few actually, but I didnt expect these decks in large numbers.

- Spellskite: Very good card against removal heavy decks, catches Bolts, STPs and stalls. Really solid card and I have 5 sources of blue to "hardcast" its ability.

- Shattering Spree: Null Rod, mirror and Stoneforge decks. With 13 red sources in the deck its pretty easy to get multiple red for Replicate.

- Needle (Revoker slot): I dont like about Revoker that he is so vulnerable. He is definitly better if you run Chalice obviously. The interesting difference between both is that Needle can hit lands (Mishras / Waste recursion) and Revoker can hit mana abilities like LED and Metalworker.

- Surgical Extraction ( Trinisphere / Thorn slot): I choose this card because of its versatility. First I did run Thorn, then Trini, but I wasnt satisfied with their performance against Dredge, which is my main concern for this slot currently. Trini has to come down very early to stop their explosive dredge lile first turn Imp, second turn Breakthrough. Three mana is not that easy to reach in this time frame. Trini can still do things if it comes down slightly later, like stopping Cabal Therapy and Dread Return. It might be stronger than I thought, need to test!
Thorn is easier to cast, but doesnt stop the discard outlets.
Extraction is very agile and can hit them any time, I am still not sure about their impact though. For instance if you hit GGT, then they still can dredge with Imp. Still need input on this what to hit. Delaying it and then hitting the first Bridge could be huge too.
Extraction is very good Loam decks obviously and also decent against control, but it looks just mediocre against Storm. Storm is not a huge concern currently in my opinion, but so are Loam decks.
I might go back to Trini or will test Sphere of Resistance in this slot.

- Lack of Chalice: This might look strange, but imo Red MUD has a lot of strong one mana spells. I was a little bit frustrated with Chalice in my blue list, where I run it maindeck. Not running it might be a huge mistake, but all these things need a lot of testing and I want to try out different routes.

Last notes:
- Dont be too greedy with the amount of lands. A major factor is Mox Opal, how reliable can your build get in online early. The earlier the more you can count them as additional land, where turn two is the threshold. Some builds, including these with Chalice main have quite a hard time to achieve this (for this reason I advise 8 artifact lands in these builds to compensate or just more land). The red version has quite a lot of 1 mana spells so get going with Opal is easy.

- Think about what robot / singleton you can CUT. I see alot of list with alot of 1ofs as Forgemaster target. Many of these are not really needed in the end. In my case I realized that I had no out to Solitary Confinment and therefore I adjust accordingly. But if you start out with lots of Tinker targets then you might not realize that they are not needed. In most cases just going for BSC is the strongest you can do, because he gives your opponent such a low respond time - insanly low with Greaves in play. Killing in one hit in many cases is a huge difference to 3-4 hits from Wurmcoil so I dont consider him as a win more card.

Deck really felt strong, hope this draws some discussion.

[(nameless one)]

I noticed that you're not running Myr Battlesphere. I have this understanding that it's great with the Welder Builds. Though I guess that B Colossus is just better with that slot.

Also, the Mycosynth Lattice sideboard plan sounds enticing too. It definitely deserves a slot in the side. I am still skeptical on Shattering Spree as with only 4 viable mana sources under an active Null Rod, I don't think you can consistently cast it.

I do like the idea of minimal Forgemaster targets. Though Mindslaver on the side should be a must. I guess my three open slots on the board are: 1x Mycosynth Lattice/ 1x Naked Singularity/ 1x Mindslaver.

I'm still working on my mana base, deciding if I should run 18 or 20 lands. Speaking of lands, I still think Rishadan Port is better than Wasteland since the mana base needs to be flexible. I am running both but I might replace the Wastelands with Crystal Veins as additional mana boost.

As for Welder numbers, I am currently running a playset but it's justified with three Thirst for Knowledges on the main. While I only rely on the Moxes to cast it, I really never had any problems with it. Though since I'm still working on tr mana base, I might add a couple of Seat of the Synod in there.

I'll post my current list later this week. I am still working on getting my pieces (missing 2 more Metalworkers, and I have 1 Metalworker and 1 Forgemaster stuck in the mail due to the Canada Post strike).

[Shawon]

- Spellskite: Very good card against removal heavy decks, catches Bolts, STPs and stalls. Really solid card and I have 5 sources of blue to "hardcast" its ability.

Couldn't Defense Grid fill this role as well? I admit it doesn't stop removal cold, but Defense Grid is pretty helpful against blue decks. EDIT: Eh, it doesn't stop removal on their turn. Nevermind, I guess it's a meta choice.

[Alexeezay]

last tournament I tried a green splash MUD, for 3Sylvan Library MD, Seals of Primordium and Chokes in the sb.
Sylvan Library seemed much stronger than Thoughcast in U, but Thoughtcast enables better Metalworker activations/plays very often.
Choke wasn't really necessary. Gonna play Crucible of Worlds/All is Dust/whatever in its sb spot.
Karn is an automatic game winner against control but I wished for All is Dust in that spot. Maybe I'm gonna remove a land/something else for all is dust (playing 20 lands atm).
All in all I think Ivanpei's suggestion of a green/white splash MUD was correct, especially because of Ench/Arfitact Removal available now.
-> I know there is Mycosynth Lattice...but seriously without active (!) Forgemaster or Metalworker it doesn't look easy to cast. While Null rod/Energy Flux come down in the early turns already (most of the time)

[slaughtercult]

As stated previously, I run the welder version. I have had a lot of blue related opponents in my time testing the build and found summoning trap as one of the funniest sideboard options to bring in against them.

In one instance, a goblin welder was countered via mental misstep and promptly followed by trap resulting in first turn wurmcoil engine...seemed pretty good. What is the general consensus on such a card used in legacy? i figured with all the free counters thrown around, this trap would be nuts...

So far, my sideboard looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Summoning trap
1 Sundering Titan

[(nameless one)]

last tournament I tried a green splash MUD, for 3Sylvan Library MD, Seals of Primordium and Chokes in the sb.
Sylvan Library seemed much stronger than Thoughcast in U, but Thoughtcast enables better Metalworker activations/plays very often.
Choke wasn't really necessary. Gonna play Crucible of Worlds/All is Dust/whatever in its sb spot.
Karn is an automatic game winner against control but I wished for All is Dust in that spot. Maybe I'm gonna remove a land/something else for all is dust (playing 20 lands atm).
All in all I think Ivanpei's suggestion of a green/white splash MUD was correct, especially because of Ench/Arfitact Removal available now.
-> I know there is Mycosynth Lattice...but seriously without active (!) Forgemaster or Metalworker it doesn't look easy to cast. While Null rod/Energy Flux come down in the early turns already (most of the time)

I personally haven't tested both Mycosynth Lattice and the green splash though I am more inclined to the Lattice than the green splash. My reasoning is that (at least in my build) most of my lands aren't artifact and Null Rod rarely affects it. Most of the beaters don't even have a useful activated ability. Yes, it affects most of the mana sources but it can be played around (or so I think). I like Mycosynth Lattice against Energy Fluxes because it also slows the opponent.


As stated previously, I run the welder version. I have had a lot of blue related opponents in my time testing the build and found summoning trap as one of the funniest sideboard options to bring in against them.

In one instance, a goblin welder was countered via mental misstep and promptly followed by trap resulting in first turn wurmcoil engine...seemed pretty good. What is the general consensus on such a card used in legacy? i figured with all the free counters thrown around, this trap would be nuts...

So far, my sideboard looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Summoning trap
1 Sundering Titan


The deck does run a lot of 1-drops and with the advent of Mental Misstep, Summoning Trap does sound tempting.

Speaking of sideboarding, I am now torn between Thorn of Amethyst and Trinisphere. Thorns used to be there for storm-combo and control. While Storm-combo is practically non-existent, it does help against control. But as mentioned with the posts above, Thorn doesn't really help against really fast aggro (such as Zoo). While this is already seen as a problem, the matchup isn't deemed a big problem because of Chalice of the Void (boarding out most of the 1cc spells the deck has).

I am also skeptical with Revokers. While Revokers are awesome in blocking activated abilities from useful permanents (from Vials to Planeswalkers), it does have that weakness of being easily removed. Pithing Needle also sounds good on that slot but usually, when I board in Revokers, I would also board in CotVs.

I myself am happy with the 12 slots in the board. I am still working on the last 3 slots which are currently Naked Singulariy, Mycosynth Lattice and Mindslaver. I might change Naked Singularity since it only shines on decks that has positive matchup against this deck. So far, it only worked against Spiral Tide decks since the decks that I would usually board it against would have another means to cheat their spells (Merfolk, D&T, Goblins). I guess it would work against two allied-colored decks as well since it also screws most of their lands.

Mindslaver sounds like a plan against control strategies that doesn't revolve around 1cc spells (such as Enchantress).

Back to the main board: What is the ideal number for Duplicants. A lot of people run one but I was thinking of running two. I don't mind removal at all. Possibly one Duplicant and one Spine of Ish Sah for more flexibility? Both can provide tricks with Welder as well.

[(nameless one)]

Sorry for the doublepost but has anyone seen this new card from M12:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120588&d=1309233956

Can this deck use it? Discuss.

[Shawon]

The first application would be to return Metalworkers in aggro-burn matches, but Buried Ruin is more of a relief plan in that regard. You already run Welder which is actual artifact recursion. It's also not bad as a relief plan against discard as well. It should definitely be tested to determine which matchups it actually helps.

[(nameless one)]

The first application would be to return Metalworkers in aggro-burn matches, but Buried Ruin is more of a relief plan in that regard. You already run Welder which is actual artifact recursion. It's also not bad as a relief plan against discard as well. It should definitely be tested to determine which matchups it actually helps.

I just re-read the card and I just caught you have to sacrifice it as part of its cost. I think its not good for the deck since every land is needed. I myself have even cut the number of Wastelands (I'm using Rishadan Ports instead) because even though you need utility from your lands, you also need your lands to consistently cast artifacts when you don't have an active mana artifact.

Also, who wants to write a proper primer for this deck?

[deadlock]

I noticed that you're not running Myr Battlesphere. I have this understanding that it's great with the Welder Builds. Though I guess that B Colossus is just better with that slot.

BSC is a very strong i-win button, but I dont know if he is REALLY necessary. The deck's creator said no and I recently returned to play Myr Bs, because I started to play a UR build. Myr Bs is stronger there, because of Tfk.



..Mycosynth Lattice..
It sounds good on paper to make effects like Null Rod or Flux symmetrical, but I am very sceptical to it's real world applications.
It would help to give some in play examples where effectively anwswers these dedicated hate cards. Saying that you can Tinker for it in response to a hate card isn't that realistic / applicable in general. In other words, especially related to Null Rod, I dont think that relying on a Tinker target to answer it is a good idea.
Currently I dont see a point to look for specialized answers to these cards, as they are not that widely played. If they become popular, then we have to rethink our boarding strategies. Till then I just play Karn as a catch all card out of the board. Besides answering hate cards, he is absolutly crushes control decks if he resolves (seconding Alexeezay in this matter).
Sometimes we just lose against these cards: Example Goblin goes g2 1st turn Mountain, Chrome Mox -> Null Rod - scoop. Very little which can stop such a play, but as its highly unlikely, we dont need to waste time thinking about solutions.


..18 or 20 lands..
Good question. I dont know the answer, but I am currently using 18 lands + 2 Mox Diamond + 3 Mox Opal in a UR build (compare to mono R/U builds). My thinking is that UR has another (reliable!) way to cheat stuff into play (Welder + Thirst), compared to mono versions. Therefore I can get away with slightly less mana. Although I dont know if 18 lands + 2 Mox D. or 20 no Mox D is stronger. Currently I feel that we need the additional accel from Mox D., additionally it provides color fixing in UR builds.
EDIT: I am back to 20 lands + 3 Mox Opal, even considering 21 land 2 Mox Opal. Question: With 2 SDT, 3 Key and 8 artifact lands, can we treat a Mox as a land? If not then I will go up to 21 land + 2 Mox.


.. Defense Grid..
Its better compareable to Summoning Trap - dedicated counter hate. Spellskite is more like a anti aggro card, but can serve its purpose against control aswell.


.. Green build
Seal is definitly one of the best board cards available to this deck, but personally I am not satisfied with Sylvan Library as I rarely want to pay 4 life for an extra card on top of Ancient Tombs and opponent damage. The resarrange is nice, but on its own not backbreaking as we have very few shuffle effects. Its more like a SDT, but with far less synergy to the rest of the deck and without the option to gain painless cardadvantage.

The other big selling point is COTV, which is very strong ofcourse, but I dont think its needed. It makes the deck more clunky (skipping 1 cmc spells) and sometimes the deck can just win / be completly unfair and COTV doesnt help here.
Currently I run it in the board and side it in against where Welder is only mediocre / weak or if it has the potencial to shut them down completly like some combo decks.


.. Thorn vs Trini..
Thorn is very good against Storm and also okay vs control on paper. My problem was that I felt that it is not very good against Dredge, as it doesnt affect Putrid Imp / Tireless Tribe. Also Dredge can sometimes afford to pay 1 extra mana, but starts to struggle if it has to pay 3. Thats the main reason for me to run Trini. running Thorn and antother dedicated yard hate card like Cryp is very inefficient in terms of board space. This was the biggest reason for me to try Surgical Extration in a none- Cotv board, as it has multiple applications.


..Duplicant and Spine..
Very strong in Welder builds, I currently run one in the maindeck. Spine would be insane if it doesnt bounce to your hand. I dont run spine, as I think it is not needed. In the games where I need permanent killer effect, I bring in Karn, which cannot be tutored up, but therefore I run 3. In the end Spine is quite narrow in terms, where it is really needed. Duplicant removes the threat and gives you a body to beat with. I think one is enough, because its more or less dead against quite some decks and I dont have board space for additional ones.


..Buried Ruin..
No need in builds running red (Welder) and debatable in other builds. Maybe in the green build? Its already hard to decide which land to run. Blue has Academy Ruins too.
I am much more exited about this card in a Gifts Ungiven pile, as it gives you the combo piece directly instead on top like AR. But this is completly unrelated.


..Primer..
I defintly would contribute, if not write one, but my time is currently very limited and I want to concetrate on testing in the spare time instead of writing a primer. Although I dont think that my knowledge has reached to point where I can make definity statements.

Is somebody interested in testing against me over MWS? If yes send a PM. Preferably someone who likes to play a lot of different decks, but anything is fine ofcourse.

[sco0ter]

can u post your UR build? I trying it too, but I am not satisfied yet.

Did you try Master Transmuter, maybe in place of Metalworker or did you try Solemn Simulacrum for mana fix and Welder tricks?

[whiley85]

@deadlock
Is the 1 mana worth it to play tfk over Fof?

[(nameless one)]

I went on a small tournament with this deck last Thursday with 9 people. I went to 1-2 before dropping out. 1 being a bye, I lost to a "post M-12 Standard Kuldotha Red" (1-2) and to my own Dredge deck that a buddy of mine borrowed (0-2)

I'll post a tournament report later once I have time.


I guess the reason why I did bad is because I need more playtesting with the deck.


can u post your UR build? I trying it too, but I am not satisfied yet.

Did you try Master Transmuter, maybe in place of Metalworker or did you try Solemn Simulacrum for mana fix and Welder tricks?

I guess if you were to do that, you'd have to replace the artifact lands with basic lands? I am running a U/R version as well (Red for Welder and Blue for TfK)

[(nameless one)]

Alright,

Heres that report.

First the list:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Spine of Ish Sah

3 Thirst for Knowledge

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mindslaver
2 Mountains


Basically the deck isn't complete. It was a 9-man tourney and I just wanted to have it for test drive. There should be a 4th Metalworker but it hasn't arrived yet. So I made the last minute decision of running Thran Dynamo on its place. The two Mountains on the sideboard should be Mycosynth Lattice and Naked Singularity which I didn't have (which is unfortunate since I wanted to test it).

Match 1 - BYE!

Match 2 - Standard K-Red deck with a "Legacy" sideboard (which I find hilarious but awesome at the same time)

It was some kid. I don't think he actually plays Legacy. He was just there to chill. I guess he wanted to try the format. The entry fee was only $2 anyways and if you top 4, you win packs depending on how many people were there.

Game 1: I win the die roll and decided to be on the play. I mull to six since my first hand didn't have any lands. I mull to Port, Tomb, Welder, LS Golem, and 2x Monolith.

My first play was Tomb, Monolith, Monolith, LS Golem. His was Land, Memnite, Ornithopter. I thought I was play Affinity but the basic Mountain baffled me. I never draw another threat but kept attacking with the Golem. He just chumpblocked with it with his free artifacts (he played a couple more, including Signal Pest). I remember drawing Great Furnace and tried casting my Welder. In response he Lightning Bolted the Golem. The Welder resolved (and the only creature I have on the field). In his turn, he Kuldotha Rebirthed on of his free artifacts, followed with Goblin Bushwacker with kicker for the win. The life lost from the Tomb didn't help at all.

I side out Goblin Welder for Chalice of the Void.


Game 2: I can't recall my hand (I forgot to write it down) but it had multiple Chalices and LS Golem. Chalice on 1 and 2 plus a LS Golem resulted to my opponent never playing anything.

Game 3: I mulled to five> Monolith, City, Chalice, Wasteland, Mox Diamond. He's on the play. On the draw, I drew a Lodestone Golem and played it (City, Mox (pitching Wasteland), Monolith). He Shattering Spree-d that Golem. When I played Chalice at 1, it was too late.

I think I got greedy with that played. I definitely should have Chaliced at 1 first. It would have made a difference.

This same kid beat a Merfolk deck on the first pairings.


Match 3 - Dredge (its my deck piloted by a buddy of mine)

Game 1: I mull an ugly hand to Metalkworker, Key, 2 Ports, Great Furnace and Hellkite. He was on the play. He just DDD-ed on his turn (actually his first two turns) while I tried to assemble my slow hand (I don't know why I kept a slow hand. I was a little cautious of mullming my hand since I might get a no lander when I mull to five). On his third turn, he played a City of Brass and Breakthrough-ed for the win. Sometimes, it hard to race a 16/16 Golgari Grave-Troll, 11x 2/2 Zombie Tokens and 2 Ichorids.

I sided in 4x Revokers and 4x Chalices for Welders, Keys and Sundering Titan.

Game 2: I'm on the play and kept this hand: 2x City, Revoker, Metalworker, Great Furnace, Wasteland, Dynamo. I started with City, Revoker naming Putrid Imp. He plays a Tireless Tribe on his first turn. I remember him slow-dredging. I Wastelanded his Cephalid Coliseum before it become active (which I think was a mistake since it also nuked my City of Traitors). I managed to slowly assemble my pieces but everytime that happens, he would dredge into Ancient Grudge. He ended up slowly killing me with Narcomoebas and Ichorids. I never drew my threats which was unfortunate.

I'm still working on the deck. I was thinking of playing it as Mono-Brown, using Chalice of the Void in the main. Hopefully next time, I play a little tighter and actually win.

[deadlock]

can u post your UR build? I trying it too, but I am not satisfied yet.
I dont want to post unrefined decklists, the manabase is still my biggest problem besides the sideboard. Currently I am running 21 land and 2 Mox Opal (0 Mox Diamond). As I answered my own question that Mox Opal does NOT replace a land in this deck. Both Moxen make the deck more explosive, but also more inconsistent. A thing I am trying to avoid, as the deck is already explosive enough. A single Metalworker activation can often put you in a very good position.
Besides this, what about putting some value to your post and posting your list, telling us what the problems are? This thread seems to be of rather poor quality sadly.

Master Transmuter is very bad compared to Welder and Metalworker, dont bother with it and dont waste slots / thoughts on Solem.


@deadlock
Is the 1 mana worth it to play tfk over Fof?
Its absolutly worth in a UR build, as you can discard a card from your hand too. Its also hides information from the opponent. The one mana is huge on its own, as Thirst if often a turn to play, possibly with a turn one Welder. Also keep in mind that Golem increases the cost of both, which puts FoF on 5 mana, which is quite a lot.

@(nameless one)
As you said it yourself, you should test more. Dredge is indeed a hard matchup and you sided incorrect on top of it. Revoker is not good against them, because of the exact situation you described. Chalice should definitly be brought in on the play, but I am not sure if its worth it on the draw.
You should have brought in Thorn definitly, as this is the main hate slot we have against Dredge. As I described earlier Thorn is lacking against Dredge (but still the best thing in your case). Therefore I run Trinisphere and I am currently testing a single Platinum Emperion, as it is hard to answer for them if you can equip him with Greaves.
(They need to resolve two Grudges through your Trini / Golems). Platinum replaces the single Phyrexian Metamorph in my board. He is quite versatile in my opinion. I am only worried about a resolved Progenitus now, but I have to test this in practice.

You also realized yourself that your list is not optimal. Work on your manabase, it looks quite inconsistent. Besides this consider Myr Battlesphere again, its quite good especially in UR, where all robots should be pitchable to Tfk / weldable. I dont miss BSC for now, but I can understand if you like him. There other things I disagree on, but you choices look reasonable for the most part.

For those who test, please create sheets with your exact build, your sideboard strategies (both matchup related and generic strategies), aswell as win / lose tracking. I hope that the interest and effort of people in this deck rises. I am willing to share data and discuss strategies in depth for every matchup, but not if there is no gain to it. Till then I test and collect data, this takes longer, but maybe its enough at some point to put together a primer.

[(nameless one)]

I am down with helping with the primer. I can diligently test against Dredge and Merfolk (since my buddies have quite the experience behind the deck). I don't know if its worth testing against Quinn (it used to be my pet deck)

I guess BSC is coming out again for Myr Battlesphere. It was nice to have a turn 2 Greaved up BSC but as you mentioned, its inconsistent.

On the colored version: is it worth going red for Welder or Blue for draw effects? Personally, I think the deck doesn't really need to get ready for the late game. I think the gameplan of the deck should be to create a softlock and go beatdown before the opponent does recover. Its nice to have a Tinker target for the late game but the deck should concentrate on the early and mid game.

On my side: I might reduce the number of Revokers to 3. If I do stay with the Welder version, my side is going to look like this:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Open Slots

Personally, for the open slots, I am considering Tangle Wire or Sphere of Resistance. Ratchet Bomb and Contagion Engine sounds tempting too. Right now, I am testing with Mycosynth Lattice, Naked Singularity and Mindslaver.

On my manabase: My mana base for the longest time involved:

4x City, 4x Tomb, 4x Port, 3x Wasteland, 3x Great Furnace. I changed two of the Furnaces to basic lands because of my fear against Path to Exile. I think I'll go back to my old manabase. I definitely think 3 Mox Diamonds can be supported if the land count was upped.

[sco0ter]

Besides this, what about putting some value to your post and posting your list, telling us what the problems are? This thread seems to be of rather poor quality sadly.

Master Transmuter is very bad compared to Welder and Metalworker, dont bother with it and dont waste slots / thoughts on Solem.


Sorry, I won't post a list as long as it doesn't work at all.

Some general remarks: I haven't tested/played Mox Diamonds and Wasteland, since they are in another deck.
And I somehow want to break Master Transmuter. Therefore I began testing with them.

The problems in general are:
- Mana issues with UR mana base. Ancient Tomb hurts sometimes too much.
- Active Goblin Welder, who has nothing to do. (no [good] artifacts in grave)
- Lodestone Golem seems unimpressive most often / dies too easy.
- No interaction with the opponent (no disruption), I feel something like Sphere effects, Chalice and/or Orb effects is missing.
- I tried Tangle Wire as disruption. Sometimes it is a real bomb (especially with Welder and Transmuter), sometimes, it is just bad. I feel it is good against combo (won me a game against Hive Mind), but bad against Aggro (Affinity or Zoo do hardly care).

I tried to solve the mana issue with Solemn. Why don't you recommend him? I saw him in Vintage MUD lists, therefore the idea, to try him out.

[(nameless one)]

Sorry, I won't post a list as long as it doesn't work at all.

Some general remarks: I haven't tested/played Mox Diamonds and Wasteland, since they are in another deck.
And I somehow want to break Master Transmuter. Therefore I began testing with them.

The problems in general are:
- Mana issues with UR mana base. Ancient Tomb hurts sometimes too much.
- Active Goblin Welder, who has nothing to do. (no [good] artifacts in grave)
- Lodestone Golem seems unimpressive most often / dies too easy.
- No interaction with the opponent (no disruption), I feel something like Sphere effects, Chalice and/or Orb effects is missing.
- I tried Tangle Wire as disruption. Sometimes it is a real bomb (especially with Welder and Transmuter), sometimes, it is just bad. I feel it is good against combo (won me a game against Hive Mind), but bad against Aggro (Affinity or Zoo do hardly care).

I tried to solve the mana issue with Solemn. Why don't you recommend him? I saw him in Vintage MUD lists, therefore the idea, to try him out.

I agree with Ancient Tomb. Against aggro, it is too much. I was thinking of the following for a 'better': 4x City, 3x Tomb and 3x Crystal Vein. But in running that manabase, the deck will need to run Crucible.

I think Thirst for Knowledge and Welder should be in the same deck.

Lodestone Golem isn't as bad at what it does. Sure it dies too often since its a creature but it can also act as a threat once the opponent is on a softlock.

I think the deck needs to run Chalice main. Although in doing so, the deck will need to let go of Welder. If Chalice were to be used in the main, I think Scarecrone could be a good replacement (along with Thirst for Knowledge).

On Solemn Simulacrum: You need to run a couple of basic lands to make use of his ramping ability. I also like his draw ability but if I would just rely on it's draw ability, I would stick with Scarecrone.

[sco0ter]

I think Thirst for Knowledge and Welder should be in the same deck.


Agreed. The only issue, I have with TfK is, that this deck wants to maximize artifacts/permanents for Metalcraft, for Forgemaster and maybe for Tangle Wire.
But if the mana base can support it, it's actually really good.



I think the deck needs to run Chalice main. Although in doing so, the deck will need to let go of Welder. If Chalice were to be used in the main, I think Scarecrone could be a good replacement (along with Thirst for Knowledge).


I thought about it, too. First I saw some (Vintage) decklists, which run both. I think it is possible but not optimal.
Second, one of the beauty of Master Transmuter is to return Chalice@1, which came to my mind.
Maybe we could even try proliferate, but I think it's not worth it (though Contagion Clasp hits a lot of targets).

I played around with my version of the deck, and wanted a) more acceleration and b) make Welder better.
Then I saw this card, which seems quite nice:

Millikin

With a Sol land it accelerates to 4 mana on turn 2, while filling your graveyard for Welder.

What do you think about it?

[Muradin]

How about running Blood Moon in the board of the red versions?
It is strong against many problematic matchups, won't gonna name where its good, you know it yourself.

[sco0ter]

Ok, I've tested several games now, with an UR version. In the end I put more controllish elements in it, so I don't know if it can still be classified as MUD. It plays like combo-control, is less explosive, but feels more consistent.

The problems I had with more aggro lists I tested, was that it often felt like an All-In. You put all your resources into mana, then empty your hand, play City, which you have to sacrifice eventually, and Monoliths which usually don't untap easily and eventually get your threat FoWed or removed.
Then you sit there with no pressure, and nearly empty hand, no draw engine and a crappy mana base.

Maybe I tested wrong versions or played wrong, but that's how it often felt.

I was always interested in an UR build mainly due to TfK and Master Transmuter.

Master lets you do nice tricks:
- Untap Grim Monolith
- Softlock with Tangle Wire, which is actually quite good.
- Return Chalice@1, play Welder, replay Chalice.
- Replay/Untap/Retrigger your Robots
- Gives shroud to all your artifacts


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn

3 Mox Opal
2 Grim Monolith

4 Goblin Welder
4 Master Transmuter
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Elsewhere Flask
2 Engineered Explosives


I tested Elsewhere Flask only twice, but it was ok actually.

Some things to notice about this card:
- Saves your City of Traitors from sacrificing
- Prevents life loss from Ancient Tomb in the mid/late game.
- Replaces itself, while feeding Forgemaster, tapping for Tangle Wire, and enabling Metalcraft.
- Mana fix
- Enables Welder (I always had trouble to get an artifact in the GY early)
- Small draw engine with Welder and Master.

I took this idea from a Vintage list, which made Top8 with it in a large event.

I cut Lodestone Golem because he often only traded 1 for 1 and I felt like a dumb when he traded with Wild Nacatl and the +1 mana more is only effective with Wire or Wasteland (which I cannot run), I feel.

The EE are against random swarm aggro or trouble some permanents, could as well be a threat.

I am still undecided:
- Number of Grim Monolith. Maybe 4 is correct, but I found myself doing nothing with 6 mana on turn 2/3. I usually only wanted 4 mana.
- Elsewhere Flask. This card looks crappy in theory, but maybe better in practice.
- Number of Forgemaster = 3?. Usually I only wanted one activation/Forgemaster to seal the game. I never wanted 2 in hand.
- Lightning Greaves vs. Thousand-Year Elixir?
- Life loss is an issue sometimes. Maybe more Wurmcoil Engines?

[(nameless one)]

I don't think Elsewhere Flask works the way you portray it. Even though the mentioned Sol Lands above becomes the basic land type of your choice, their effect still triggers/resolves.

If you want a metalcraft/Welder/Forgemaster enabler, you might wanna try Ichor Wellspring

I think Grim Monolith is a full playset, and so are Forgemasters.

Anyways, I like what ivanpei has to say about MUD:


Ive had alot of personal success with mud, people try to do too many things in mud like lock pieces, wastelands etc etc. They just don't work. What you need is resiliency. Mud is pretty much a combo deck. You shouldn't be trying to add control elements and the sorts like wastes and trinis. Just go for the kill and max out consistency. I play this list:

4 chalice
3 spellskite
4 grim
4 metalworker
3 lightning greaves
3 sylvan library (MVP)
4 lodestone golem
4 kudoltha forgemaster
4 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering Titan
1 myr battlesphere

3 mox diamond
2 mox opal

4 forest
4 darksteel citadel
4 tree of tales
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

Sb
4 trini
3 choke
4 revoker
4 seal of primordium

This deck is very straight forward, nothing fancy but plenty of redundancy. It can run chalice @ 1 optimally because it skips keys. Keys IMO are very win more and conditional. Playing more lands helps alot with consistency. That's what mud really needs, consistency and resiliency.

Post board seal of primordium are preemptive solutions to null rod. It's the best out. And even if you top deck it, you can cast it with forests.

[(nameless one)]

I don't think Elsewhere Flask works the way you portray it. Even though the mentioned Sol Lands above becomes the basic land type of your choice, their effect still triggers/resolves.

If you want a metalcraft/Welder/Forgemaster enabler, you might wanna try Ichor Wellspring

I think Grim Monolith is a full playset, and so are Forgemasters.

Anyways, I like what ivanpei has to say about MUD:


Ive had alot of personal success with mud, people try to do too many things in mud like lock pieces, wastelands etc etc. They just don't work. What you need is resiliency. Mud is pretty much a combo deck. You shouldn't be trying to add control elements and the sorts like wastes and trinis. Just go for the kill and max out consistency. I play this list:

4 chalice
3 spellskite
4 grim
4 metalworker
3 lightning greaves
3 sylvan library (MVP)
4 lodestone golem
4 kudoltha forgemaster
4 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering Titan
1 myr battlesphere

3 mox diamond
2 mox opal

4 forest
4 darksteel citadel
4 tree of tales
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

Sb
4 trini
3 choke
4 revoker
4 seal of primordium

This deck is very straight forward, nothing fancy but plenty of redundancy. It can run chalice @ 1 optimally because it skips keys. Keys IMO are very win more and conditional. Playing more lands helps alot with consistency. That's what mud really needs, consistency and resiliency.

Post board seal of primordium are preemptive solutions to null rod. It's the best out. And even if you top deck it, you can cast it with forests.

[sco0ter]

I don't think Elsewhere Flask works the way you portray it. Even though the mentioned Sol Lands above becomes the basic land type of your choice, their effect still triggers/resolves.


305.7. If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land's subtype doesn't add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.

So it works. If Flask said "in addition", it wouldn't.

I currently even have Ichor Wellspring in my real deck. It is ok, but you are just drawing cards, IF you get it going, that means have another artifact in GY, which is actually the biggest problem in the early game (unless you have TfK). And when you get something in GY, you have either nearly won (Forgemaster) or there are better things to Weld (TfK).

I often found myself attacking with a Goblin Welder for a mere point of damage, since he couldn't generate any value else. Drawing a card instead seems at least better.

[(nameless one)]

Oh I see what you're talking about with the Flask.

As for Welder, I think a lot of people mistake the purpose of Welder. While you can play tricks with him, I think his main purpose is to negate Removal/Discard/Permisssion. While an early game Welder might not be as spectacular (due to an empty graveyard), he can be a bomb late game when most of your artifacts have been destroyed, discarded or countered.

I personally think Welders are not a full-playset in the deck as in the early game, he doesn't really do much (unlike a Lackey or a Vial in their respective decks).

I myself am playtesting a Welder-less build. I do miss it sometimes but running Chalice of the Void in the main can be a beating against a lot of deck, especially on the play. Unfortunately, if you're not starting on the play, Chalice is underwhelming.

Here is the current Welderless build I'm testing:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Island

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Spellskite
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves

3 Thoughtcast


From my original list, I have changed the singleton Forgemaster targets, the colored mana base, the Welder for Chalice, Voltaic Key for Spellskite and the Thirst for Knowledge for Thoughtcast.

I do miss the deck's interaction with Welder and as I mentioned above, Chalice is underwhelming if you're on the draw. I will keep testing between the variations.

As for the three slots for the draw, if I go back to the Welder build, I might consider Sorcerer's Strongbox instead of TfK (and bring back Key). The reason for that is its weldable back if you need another draw. Though I am thinking with an explosive deck, this deck shouldn't worry about the late game. But as an incase ruling question, if I activate the Strongbox, and Key it and I won both coin flips, I get to draw 6 cards right?

I kinda agree with ivanpei with the lockpieces. It's not necessary to the deck but I would like a way to slow down the opponent in case I can't get anything going. I like what he has done with Sylvan Library but having to lose a lot of life (especially with Ancient Tomb) really sucks against aggro and aggro-control decks.

[manugl84]

Oh I see what you're talking about with the Flask.

As for Welder, I think a lot of people mistake the purpose of Welder. While you can play tricks with him, I think his main purpose is to negate Removal/Discard/Permisssion. While an early game Welder might not be as spectacular (due to an empty graveyard), he can be a bomb late game when most of your artifacts have been destroyed, discarded or countered.

I personally think Welders are not a full-playset in the deck as in the early game, he doesn't really do much (unlike a Lackey or a Vial in their respective decks).

I myself am playtesting a Welder-less build. I do miss it sometimes but running Chalice of the Void in the main can be a beating against a lot of deck, especially on the play. Unfortunately, if you're not starting on the play, Chalice is underwhelming.

Here is the current Welderless build I'm testing:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Island

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Spellskite
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves

3 Thoughtcast


From my original list, I have changed the singleton Forgemaster targets, the colored mana base, the Welder for Chalice, Voltaic Key for Spellskite and the Thirst for Knowledge for Thoughtcast.

I do miss the deck's interaction with Welder and as I mentioned above, Chalice is underwhelming if you're on the draw. I will keep testing between the variations.

As for the three slots for the draw, if I go back to the Welder build, I might consider Sorcerer's Strongbox instead of TfK (and bring back Key). The reason for that is its weldable back if you need another draw. Though I am thinking with an explosive deck, this deck shouldn't worry about the late game. But as an incase ruling question, if I activate the Strongbox, and Key it and I won both coin flips, I get to draw 6 cards right?

I kinda agree with ivanpei with the lockpieces. It's not necessary to the deck but I would like a way to slow down the opponent in case I can't get anything going. I like what he has done with Sylvan Library but having to lose a lot of life (especially with Ancient Tomb) really sucks against aggro and aggro-control decks.


I see that you´re testing spellskite as ivanpei suggested. How is it performing for you? I think it can be very annoying for removal/bouncers, and a fat ass for early swarms.

[Al-ucard]

Last week I tried a monocolor version without keys and performed quite well:

20 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sead of the synod
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel citadel

20 Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus

20 Others
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the void
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Karn Liberated
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

Also, I think that spellskite will be a good adition avoiding that our metalworker or Golems are removed or bolted.

[(nameless one)]

Spellskite are good against removal. It achieves Greaves' and Welders' roles (though half-assed). The plus is that it can be a wall early game against aggro decks.

For some reason, I still want to run Welders, the fact that they are also good against Discard and Permission. Maybe they're just sideboard material now? They only thing that stopping me from playing them are Mental Missteps.

[(nameless one)]

I have been checking TC decks and I've been seeing this slight success of non-Forgemaster colorless lists.

One example is this:

Creatures [17]
2 Platinum Emperion
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Sorceries [3]
3 All Is Dust


Planeswalkers [1]
1 Karn Liberated


Artifacts [17]
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

Lands [22]
2 Dust Bowl
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Is it possible that this deck should go this way? I think theres going to be a small tournament at one of the local gaming stores around here. I'll probably run this or Dredge. My list will the list I've posted above previous to this post. I am still working on a sideboard. Any suggestions? I know Phyrexian Revokers are going to be a must. I am thinking of Contagion Engine and Ratchet Bombs as well.

I might even replace the Thoughtcast from that list with a lock piece such as Trinisphere (and keep it colorless). I might run Great Furnaces as my lands, with Goblin Welders on the side. However those are just theories. Any ideas for sideboarding?

EDIT:

I have been watching a couple of MTGO Classic MUD videos on Youtube. It seems that MUD is so successful in that format yet it can barely make a punch on this. Most of the cards are the same (except for Mana Vault and Mishra's Workshop, but those builds don't run Grim Monolith and City of Traitors). Those builds does concentrate on lock pieces such as Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst. While Thorn isn't optimal Legacy (since a lot of decks are creature-centric), Trinisphere can be substituted for it (theyre restricted in Classic). Also, those build don't seem to run a means of card draw. I am guessing its because when a lock is established, you won't have to worry much about your opponent.

On ivanpei's list: I think that list should run at least one Gaea's Cradle, just the fact that it runs more creatures and it could help power out more artifacts (kinda like what Tolarian Academy does in Classic MUD).

Anything you guys wanna add? It seems like this thread is so dead.

[sco0ter]

Those builds does concentrate on lock pieces such as Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst. While Thorn isn't optimal Legacy (since a lot of decks are creature-centric), Trinisphere can be substituted for it (theyre restricted in Classic). Also, those build don't seem to run a means of card draw. I am guessing its because when a lock is established, you won't have to worry much about your opponent.


This reminds me of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/20965_Vintage_MUD_Primer.html), in case you don't know it. It applies to Vintage, but maybe the concepts are still true for Legacy.



The cost of that draw engine is pressure. Those cards occupy slots in your deck that should be devoted to locking your opponent out or providing you with the mana to do so. While many Shop decks look basic (in that they run so many playsets of cards), don't let yourself be fooled. The necessity of playsets of given cards doesn't permit wasted space. Remember – draw spells aren't actually threats; they merely represent the potentiality for threats. You won't achieve a lock because you've drawn cards; in fact, by allowing your opponent time (because you spent time and resources in casting that draw spell), you may permit your opponent to seize the initiative and the control of the game or the match.

[...]
As was mentioned earlier, there's no effective way to run a draw engine in a Shop Prison deck without sacrificing space needed for lockpieces that you must run in multiples. A Shop Prison deck with insufficient lockpieces is a Shop Prison deck that won't be at the upper tables towards the end of a tournament.


---



Anything you guys wanna add? It seems like this thread is so dead.

Your list looks straight forward. Powerful, but nothing fancy, no tricks, all sorcery speed, just aggro. It looks a little bit to fair and predictable without Welder and Forgemaster, which give the deck a little bit more combo feel and instant tricks.

What about Sundering Titan in your list?

[deadlock]

Too little people test this deck or dont post on this board. The monobrown list and variations of it do quite well regularly as it seems. I dont exactly know why they work so well, because they look albeit very brutal also very inconsistent (no draw / search, and more mana cards / bombs and fewer cars in between).

Having Mishras Workshop and Mana Vault available is a huge difference and influeces deck design by large amount. Going for the prison approach works best in mono brown or in some kind of hybrid version (saw a very interesting one at a local tournament today).

Speaking of tournament, I played in a very small one (just 8 ppl showed up) to a disappointing record of 1-1-1 with a mono green list, similiar to the one of invanpei with some modifications.
Although not representative, it still annoys me to lose / draw after doing lots of testing with the deck. I shouldnt bother and continue to test / improve, but I still think about trying blue/red again - this time with 4 Chalice and 3 Welder maindeck.
Another idea I want to test is a green list with 4 Living Wish maindeck. Main goal is to increase consistency and providing answers. Before going into details, do you guys think this idea is completly bs and if so why. Dont want to waste time if too janky^^

About the manabase, how do you like Mox Opal? I currently run 21 land, 2 Mox Opal, 2 Mox Diamond and think about going up to 22 land / 3 Mox Diamond. Although Mox Diamond means card disadvantage, starting the game with 2-3 mana is a very strong boost for this deck ( turn 1 chalice more often, turn 1 metal, turn 1 Sylvan Library etc.).

[(nameless one)]

Too little people test this deck or dont post on this board. The monobrown list and variations of it do quite well regularly as it seems. I dont exactly know why they work so well, because they look albeit very brutal also very inconsistent (no draw / search, and more mana cards / bombs and fewer cars in between).

Having Mishras Workshop and Mana Vault available is a huge difference and influeces deck design by large amount. Going for the prison approach works best in mono brown or in some kind of hybrid version (saw a very interesting one at a local tournament today).

Speaking of tournament, I played in a very small one (just 8 ppl showed up) to a disappointing record of 1-1-1 with a mono green list, similiar to the one of invanpei with some modifications.
Although not representative, it still annoys me to lose / draw after doing lots of testing with the deck. I shouldnt bother and continue to test / improve, but I still think about trying blue/red again - this time with 4 Chalice and 3 Welder maindeck.
Another idea I want to test is a green list with 4 Living Wish maindeck. Main goal is to increase consistency and providing answers. Before going into details, do you guys think this idea is completly bs and if so why. Dont want to waste time if too janky^^

About the manabase, how do you like Mox Opal? I currently run 21 land, 2 Mox Opal, 2 Mox Diamond and think about going up to 22 land / 3 Mox Diamond. Although Mox Diamond means card disadvantage, starting the game with 2-3 mana is a very strong boost for this deck ( turn 1 chalice more often, turn 1 metal, turn 1 Sylvan Library etc.).

You might want to check this out: MUD (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6537&iddeck=47350)

You're right, for some reason, the 'German' versions seem to do so well.

I tried running a prison version (4 Chalice, 4 Sphere of Resistance, 3 Trinisphere) and it wasn't that great at all. I guess it would need Workshops and Mana Vaults for it to work.

My local store is doing a casual legacy event tomorrow. It's not really casual since people will be bringing established decks. I was wondering what my side should look like. Phyrexian Revokers are definitely in there.

Heres my current sideboard:

4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x open slots

I'm thinking of Mindslaver as a Forgemaster target against control. Maybe a Platinum Angel. I am also thinking of Ratchet Bombs and Contagion Engines. I might even put Welders on the side (I'm running Chalice on main) Any suggestions?

Also, I am testing Scroll Rack. Its not going to be the greatest but in the only game and when you can't really do anything, I think Scroll Rack will be that card that at leasts helps you with bad draws.

Yes, Scroll Rack doesn't help you late game but in a deck as explosive as this, why would this deck resolve to late game?

[GoldenCid]

Has it been any improvement on this in the last time?

[(nameless one)]

Has it been any improvement on this in the last time?

Unfortunately no. I am currently busy with work so I haven't really playtested with it. Though I might play it this Thursday at a local store small event.

[(nameless one)]

Has it been any improvement on this in the last time?

Unfortunately no. I am currently busy with work so I haven't really playtested with it. Though I might play it this Thursday at a local store small event.

[moug]

The deck i have been playing lately

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin
21 Lands

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Scarecrone
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
22 Creatures

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
2 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
1 Karn Liberated
18 spells

Side
1 Karn Liberated
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 Mind's Eye
1 Duplicant
1 Ward of Bones
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
15 side

Why this list ?
In europe reanimator is very strong. Maverick is strongly played too.
Chalice of the Void & trinisphere > welder + voltaic key against reanimator & maverick (calice shut down most of the 1cc cards).

The problem with calice & trinisphere => the deck is toss dependant. Most of the MU will vary depending on the play or on the draw.

From my testing :
Buried Ruin is awesome. I will probably run 3 in the next list.
With crucible, Buried Ruin is a major threat.
Mishra's Factory makes you smile when a player will try to play standstill. Helps you to get an artefact with kuldotha without drawbacks (null rod / energy flux / rebuild). Helps you against aggro with crucible.

The problem i will have to solve will be to be able to deal with dark confidant.
I do loose almost every match up dark confidant sticks to the board.

[(nameless one)]

How often do you get a turn one Trinisphere? It seems that you always need a Sol Land + Mox Diamond/Grim Monolith. I think its too much cards to dedicate to an early Trinisphere.

I have tested with Scarecrone before. I removed it because I was already running Welder at that point but I will be putting it back on the main (I have switched to a Chalice build). My point with Scarecrone is that its good in multiples. I would run at least 2. If you have multiples on the board, you can use it as an extra draw (and can recur it with the other Scarecrone). Yes I know you're already running Buried Ruin but with Scarecrone, you can do it multiple times.

I actually like your Wurmcoil/Hellkite number. I am currently running 4 Wurmcoil/1 Hellkite/0 Emperium. I used to run an Emperium on one of the Wurmcoil slots but I think that they cover the same role. Wurmcoil is also better against removal as it will leave tokens behind.

I feel like you have too much singleton going on. It could be the Forgemaster tech but can you justify all those? I feel that both Metamorph and Duplicant can fill the same role.

What do you usually play against (on top of Reanimator and Maverick decks)? Can you provide a short matchup analysis on them?

As for my list, heres what I have right now (though it is short on playtesting since I've been busy lately):

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Buried Ruin

4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Spellskite
2 Scarecrone
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

I believe the deck's only out with Bobs are to Forgemaster for Duplicant. That or try to have a softlock ASAP

[(nameless one)]

Sorry for the double post but I just checked TC Decks and these decks made top 8 in the past month:

TC Legacy (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy)



Creatures [18]
2 Platinum Emperion
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Sorceries [1]
1 All Is Dust

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Karn Liberated

Artifacts [17]
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [22]
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Rishadan Port
2 Buried Ruin
2 Dust Bowl
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sundering Titan
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Duplicant
1 Trinisphere
1 Silent Arbiter
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyline of the Void





Creatures [23]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Artifacts [16]
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere

Lands [21]
2 Dust Bowl
3 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:
1 Arena of the Ancients
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
3 All Is Dust
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth




Creatures [21]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Karn Liberated

Artifacts [16]
1 Batterskull
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [22]
2 Dust Bowl
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 All Is Dust
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Thorn of Amethyst


What I noticed from all of them is that they are all colorless. No Welder tricks. Just good old robot-bashing fun. It does look wierd that they do run Voltaic Key and Chalice of the Void in the same list.

Though it looks like it dodges Mental Misstep. Not so much with the rest of available permission in the format. It still makes we wonder if Welder would be great against permission decks and decks with removal.

I also noticed that instead of the conventional 17-19 land count that Michael Bomholt and Ali Aintrazi used to run, these versions run at least 21 lands.

The main question is that would the European lists (the mechanisch-Schläger version) be the way to go for this deck or these decks are built to prey on the European meta?

[Al-ucard]

Last friday I test this list that I liked a lot since has 4 summoning trap in side and it's a must for this deck against so many blue based decks. Once the first game is finished opponent will think a lot which creature counters you XD.

Example of the power of this card (of my testings last friday):

I play a metalworker with lightning greaves in play and a trap in hand, opponent counters it so I play trap for 0 and shows a welder that I equipped with lightning greaves, tap welder to exchange a tapped monolith with metalworker, equip metalworker with greaves and play sundering titan. Simply amazing!

The list:

20 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Gemstone Mine

27 Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Sundering Titan
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Goblin Welder
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

13 Others
4 Grim Monolith
4 Tangle Wire
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Karn Liberated
1 Mindslaver

60 Total

15 Sideboard
4 Summoning Trap
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Nihil Spellbomb

The Gemstones mines are there to abuse of Sundering Titan without been afected. The only cards I'm not sure about are Karn and Mindslaver.

Thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

Hey man,

Couple of questions:

1) Why run 3 Phyrexian Metamorph? I understand the versitility of running one as a Forgemaster target but why 3? What exactly do they achieve in your list?

2) Why both Platinum Angel and Emperion? Why run them if you can run a playset of Wurmcoil Engine?

3) How has Tangle Wire been for you. Does it actually do its job of locking down the board? Would Chalice of the Void be better (though it does suck with Welder)

4) Why only one Karn? Its not like you can Forgemaster/tutor for him. Is he actually helpful?

5) Why don't you have Spellskite? Not only it can protect your robots, it can also be used as an early 'wall' against swarm aggro such as Zoo and Merfolk and actually live (well for a couple of turns at least).

6) Why aren't you running any Moxes? Aren't they that helpful in accelerating the deck?

7) Why run 3 Sundering Titan? I understand a Forgemaster target but I think three is too much. Besides, once hes online, you can do your tricks with Welder no problem. Also, all your lands don't have basic land types on them anyways. They all should be fine under Sundering Titan.

8) I am guessing your local meta has a lot of graveyard decks. Is that the case? Also, why not run Tormod's Crypt instead of Faerie Macabre?

9) Have you considered running Ratchet Bombs and Phyrexian Revokers in your sideboard? Though I guess its all meta-dependent.

I would like to say that I keep hearing about Summoning Trap and how good its been post-board. I would definitely consider it in my sideboard.

Thanks for sharing.

[Al-ucard]

Hey man,

Couple of questions:

1) Why run 3 Phyrexian Metamorph? I understand the versitility of running one as a Forgemaster target but why 3? What exactly do they achieve in your list?

2) Why both Platinum Angel and Emperion? Why run them if you can run a playset of Wurmcoil Engine?

3) How has Tangle Wire been for you. Does it actually do its job of locking down the board? Would Chalice of the Void be better (though it does suck with Welder)

4) Why only one Karn? Its not like you can Forgemaster/tutor for him. Is he actually helpful?

5) Why don't you have Spellskite? Not only it can protect your robots, it can also be used as an early 'wall' against swarm aggro such as Zoo and Merfolk and actually live (well for a couple of turns at least).

6) Why aren't you running any Moxes? Aren't they that helpful in accelerating the deck?

7) Why run 3 Sundering Titan? I understand a Forgemaster target but I think three is too much. Besides, once hes online, you can do your tricks with Welder no problem. Also, all your lands don't have basic land types on them anyways. They all should be fine under Sundering Titan.

8) I am guessing your local meta has a lot of graveyard decks. Is that the case? Also, why not run Tormod's Crypt instead of Faerie Macabre?

9) Have you considered running Ratchet Bombs and Phyrexian Revokers in your sideboard? Though I guess its all meta-dependent.

I would like to say that I keep hearing about Summoning Trap and how good its been post-board. I would definitely consider it in my sideboard.

Thanks for sharing.


First of all the list is not mine I decided to tested it since I like it:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6679&iddeck=48410

1) I asked myself the question but if you play the deck you will realize why 3 are a good number since the metamorphs can copy all! Tangle wire, welder, a tapped monolith, sundering titan...

2) I suppose that the reason is because the ability to avoid losing (angel) or loss life (emperion) is better than life gaining of wurmcoil.

3) Tangle is amazing! seriously, and better with welder. Test it!

4) I don't like the karn too, I'll quit him. And I'm not sure about Mindslaver...

5) I like the spellkites but maybe as a sideboard card against too removal decks like zoo/burn.

6) I don't know why Schröder don't play them but I can say that I like the list without them since are much more consistent that the moxen ones.

7) I suppose it's because sundering is the best robot this deck can support because all cards we play are for slow opponent, tangle wire, lodestone golem, wasteland... In my testings I like the synergy this cards have.

8) This is a question for Schröder XD

9) In my sideboad I think I will play summoning traps surely, but not know which other cards...

[into_play]

I've been considering running a MUD variation at an upcoming Legacy tournament, but I have two rules questions regarding Lodestone Golem (or Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst for that matter) and converted mana costs. I apolgize if these are very noobish questions.

1. Does the extra 1 colorless to play a spell with a Lodestone Golem in play affect what the spell's converted mana cost is? Basically, if I have a Chalice of the Void with one charge counter in play, as well as a Lodestone Golem, will an opponent's Swords to Plowshares get around the Chalice (since it now costs 2 instead of 1)?

2. If I have a Lodestone Golem in play and my opponent plays a card with an alternate cost, by means of not paying mana (Force of Will or Daze, for example), do they still need to pay an extra 1 mana? I would guess that by avoiding the mana cost altogether, they could still play the card for free, but the tournament report by the OP seems to indicate otherwise.

Also, regarding deck design, has anyone had any success with some Silent Arbiters in the board? Especially with multiples (2-4) rather than as a singleton to fetch with Kudoltha? It seems like several of them could replace Lodestone Golem in aggro matchups, buying you enough time to get to a Steel Hellkite and fly over for the win. But maybe between Wurmcoils, early disruption and occassional Platinum Emperions, aggro is not that difficult of a matchup?

Summoning Trap looks like amazing tech BTW. I remember it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but there was very little discussion about it. The big creature density is so high in this deck, that it seems like a perfect fit for the Stoneforge matchups, and possibly even Merfolk. I will be sure to run at least three in the board.

[Barsoom]

1. No, StP will be countered. Chalice checks for mana cost on the card, not for how much mana you pay to cast it.

2. Yes, they still need to pay the extra mana.

[into_play]

^ Thanks a lot. For my first question, I guess I was thinking that the extra mana affected the CMC same way as an X cost spell's CMC is whatever you pay for X.

Also, can you explain why the free spells still cost an additional 1? It seems like the "instead of paying [free counterspell]'s casting cost" clause would override whatever the mana cost would be.

[Benie Bederios]

^ Thanks a lot. For my first question, I guess I was thinking that the extra mana affected the CMC same way as an X cost spell's CMC is whatever you pay for X.

Also, can you explain why the free spells still cost an additional 1? It seems like the "instead of paying [free counterspell]'s casting cost" clause would override whatever the mana cost would be.

Simply because the extra 1 mana they have to pay because of Sphere isn't included in the casting cost.

They play Force of Will removing a blue card an paying one life, so they don't have to pay 3UU, for that is the casting cost for Force of Will. That doesn't effect the extra mana for Sphere of Resistance.

.Benie.

[into_play]

^ Thank you, that all makes perfect sense.

I hope people don't discredit Thran Dynamo. In my testing, it has shown to take away some of the explosiveness that other acceleration might give (such as the Moxen), but gives the deck a lot more solid mid-late game. I'm still debating whether to run 3 or 4 (I currently run 3 Voltaic Keys).

[festeringGAB]

Hi guys...
In the last tournamente I made TOP8 with MUD monobrown..(67 players)
I win Vs: 3x reanimator, 1x hive mind, 1x landeed and I lose Vs 3x NO RUG (0-2)
Have you some advice for this MU?
I have side in 3x metamorph, 1x all is dust, 1x ratchet bomb,but is not enough.

I think about triskelion or masticore (2x) in sideboard..

(the list here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6810 )

I dont like platinum emperion in main deck,I replace this with sundering titan or duplicant for the next time..what do you think about this?

Creatures [17]
2 Platinum Emperion
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Sorceries [2]
2 All Is Dust

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Karn Liberated

Artifacts [15]
2 Batterskull
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [21]
1 Dust Bowl
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Buried Ruin
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland

Side [15]
3 Trinisphere
2 Sundering Titan
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 All Is Dust

[moug]

Your deck is only contains 57 cards, can you tell us the 3 other cards ?
3 Thran Dynamo ?

[(nameless one)]

^ Thank you, that all makes perfect sense.

I hope people don't discredit Thran Dynamo. In my testing, it has shown to take away some of the explosiveness that other acceleration might give (such as the Moxen), but gives the deck a lot more solid mid-late game. I'm still debating whether to run 3 or 4 (I currently run 3 Voltaic Keys).

I keep seeing all these European lists with they Dynamo and no Moxen. I think this is the right call since the format has slowed down.

Though on the explosive lists, would Goblin Welder (+ Summoning Trap) still work or its just doing too much.

The way I see it, Welder will get Mental Misstepped in the early game, follow that up with Summoning Trap and you could have a Wurmcoil Engine online by turn one.

Also at festeringGAB:

How was Karn? Is he that helpful?

In general:

I noticed that the Kuldotha Forgemaster lists aren't as popular as before (especially in Europe). Is it because its only good with Welders?

And has anyone tried Birthing Pod? I know that the Welder list runs about 25 creatures. Would it make sense to run that card in a creature heavy list? Even though the creature curve starts at 3 (Metalworker), I think the deck curves out nicely (Lodestone Golem and Phyrexian Metamorph, maybe Solemn Simulacrum at 4; Clone Shell, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Precursor Golem at 5; Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant at 6)

Also on that build, I think Clone Shell would be the bomb as it will allow you to cheat an artifact into play (especially with Welders in junction with Birthing Pod)

[moug]

In general:
I noticed that the Kuldotha Forgemaster lists aren't as popular as before (especially in Europe). Is it because its only good with Welders?


Just like in US, Stoneforge is widely played. Natural order too. This means aven mindcensor is becoming a strong sb or MD cards.
Stifle a making their way back in md too (esper blade). Kuldotha is a suicide card against this two cards so the md is shifting.
sample :
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2010
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2042&d=214361


i am looking forward to play with
Witchbane Orb 4
Artifact
When Witchbane Orb enters the battlefield, destroy all Curses attached to you.
You have hexproof.
making discard and burn bye....

[(nameless one)]

Just like in US, Stoneforge is widely played. Natural order too. This means aven mindcensor is becoming a strong sb or MD cards.
Stifle a making their way back in md too (esper blade). Kuldotha is a suicide card against this two cards so the md is shifting.
sample :
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2010
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2042&d=214361


i am looking forward to play with
Witchbane Orb 4
Artifact
When Witchbane Orb enters the battlefield, destroy all Curses attached to you.
You have hexproof.
making discard and burn bye....

I see what you're saying with Kuldotha Forgemaster. I guess Birthing Pod would also be a bad idea? Though I still think Goblin Welder still has a chance even though the format is Mental Misstep infested. Though it wouldn't play nice with Chalice of the Void.

Speaking of Chalice of the Void, isnt CotV great in dealing with discard and burn? (Most of them have 1cc).

[(nameless one)]

So Mental Misstep got the hammer.

I started shedding tears as I can play Goblin Welders again without fear of getting MMed.

[festeringGAB]

Also at festeringGAB:

How was Karn? Is he that helpful?


karn is a good card Vs blue base and controll deck,but Vs aggro or aggro/controll,is not the best..is a good side out :)


Your deck is only contains 57 cards, can you tell us the 3 other cards ?
3 Thran Dynamo ?
yes sorry,there are also 4x Thran Dynamo (play with 61 cards)

[deadlock]

With MM out of the picture I am willed to give this deck another try. Based on the assumption that both Welder and Voltaic Key are stronger now. (Key because first turn Monolith -> Key was an extremely risky play).

While I played UR for quite some time, I came to the conclusion that blue is not worth it just for TfK. SDT can fullfill the same role as a draw / filter engine and does a lot more on top of it.
The monobrown builds, while being extremly brutal, are also inconsistent and miss a lot of strong cards / plays. These builds are more aggro, compared to Forgemaster builds, which play more like combo decks. One of the biggest weaknesses of these builds are that they cannot utilitze Mox Opal, which is an extremly strong card in my opinion, given the right amount of cheap artifacts. However the majority plays monobrown, so if someone is interested in red based Welder MUD PM me and we can discuss / test.

[(nameless one)]

I will try to playtest the Key/Welder build again. Though my local area has been all Standard as of late so all my testing will be just on Cockatrice.

Speaking of Standard, I am running a Architect/Birthing Pod bastard mix, just like Kenny Oberg ran at ProTour Nagoya.

Anyways, the reason why I talked about that is because I want to bring up Birthing Pod in the Welder builds. I will argue that Forgemaster will start sucking post MMS ban because of tempo decks (I'm looking at Stifle). While you can make the same argument with Birthing Pod, a Stifled Birthing Pod isn't as debilitating as a Stifled Forgemaster. It has some restrictions but I don't see hindering the deck.

One of my main concerns with B. Pod was the 5cc slot. Even my Standard build was facing this dilemma. Then during a casual EDH, I encountered Clone Shell. In a build with a lot more creatures (Welder builds seem to have more creatures than the mono-brown builds), it seems that it can work wonders. I know it costs 5 mana but sometimes, reaching to 6 mana without a Metalworker sucks. Cheating a robot into play seems cool (though it has to die first). You can also play tricks with it with Welder.

Also with the red splashed MUD, I think Buried Ruin should be included in some way. Though we already have Welder for that.

I will try to work on this list again. Hopefully this time, the discussion is more helpful.

[zmattk]

Hey guys, so I played this deck a little bit right when it placed for the first time earlier this year and I had a ton of fun with it. I just felt it was a little inconsistent at times. Can you guys speculate on where this deck is going? I would really like trying out some lists again. Right now I'm really kind of struggling with the mana base. I would love to fit in Mox Diamonds but I feel like I don't have enough lands and its a dead card a lot of the time. Also cutting things for more lands is also a problem because so much of this deck has synergy with itself. I'd also like to play the welder version if that matters to anyone.

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys, so I played this deck a little bit right when it placed for the first time earlier this year and I had a ton of fun with it. I just felt it was a little inconsistent at times. Can you guys speculate on where this deck is going? I would really like trying out some lists again. Right now I'm really kind of struggling with the mana base. I would love to fit in Mox Diamonds but I feel like I don't have enough lands and its a dead card a lot of the time. Also cutting things for more lands is also a problem because so much of this deck has synergy with itself. I'd also like to play the welder version if that matters to anyone.

I have a feeling that this deck is not going to gain anything this set, lot alone this block. Though I could be wrong since Lodestone Golem was in a set I least expect it to be. The deck has raw power and explosiveness to it, though you did mention it that it is a little inconsistent.

The way I see it, it falls under the category of Belcher. If it works, theres no stopping it but if it doesn't work, it will cost you the game. Though I believe the deck is more forgiving than player Belcher in a sense that a single counter on one of your spells can still can keep you going. Though the drawback is that once you keep going, you don't win right away like Belcher but you should be close to winning anyways. Also, learning how to mulligan with the deck helps.

As for Mox Diamond, I am running 3 Diamonds in a 18-20 land list. I am still toying with it.

Right now, I think the deck is just looking for the right number of robots, lands and support spells. I still think it has potential. After all, it is an 'established' archetype.

Cards that I have been testing in a rarely available time:

Tangle Wire - I think this has potential to be great with Goblin Welder.

Birthing Pod - No conclusion to it yet. I think adding this would be doing too much.

Clone Shell - I also think this has a great potential with Welder. It can also help with bad topdecks (via Sensei's Divining Top). It can also help:

Scroll Rack - This card is great early game with terrible hands. But it doesn't help late game at all. Though with Clone Shell, it could change.

Thirst for Knowledge - I know its a Welder build but unlike Thoughtcast, it has that great synergy with Welder. Though one might argue that Intuition is better.

Forbidden Alchemy - Its like TfK.

[Zeisse]

Hello

First of all apologize for my English.

This weekend, took place the Eternal Weekend in Madrid, Spain. A legacy tournament with 294 players, 9 rounds of swiss + top 8.

I was ranked 17th ( 7-2 ) with the following list:


Welder MUD

4 Ancient tomb
4 CIty of traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great furnace
4 Gemstone mine
4 Goblin welder
3 Lightning greaves
4 Grim monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Tangle wire
4 Lodestone golem
3 Phyrexian metamorph
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil engine
1 Steel hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering titan
1 Platinum emperion
1 Blightsteel colossus

Sideboard

4 Thorn of amethyst
4 Chalice of the void
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Phyrexian revoker


I have written a report of the tournament, tonight I will put the link. It is written in Spanish.

[(nameless one)]

Speaking of Tangle Wire, there it is.

How was Tangle Wire?

Good job man. Looking forward for that report.

[sco0ter]

Can someone explain to me, why you play Gemstone Mine?

I saw it in a few other MUD decks found at http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/

It may have its right to exist due to some SB cards, but you don't use any colored ones.

Is it better than Volcanic Island (due to Sundering Titan) or even plain Mountain (your only blue card is Phyrexian metamorph)?

How does this deck play without any Moxen??

@Tangle Wire: It already won me games against Hive Mind and High Tide (only tested online), but I played the lock with Master Transmuter. I like it.

[(nameless one)]

Can someone explain to me, why you play Gemstone Mine?

I saw it in a few other MUD decks found at http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/

It may have its right to exist due to some SB cards, but you don't use any colored ones.

Is it better than Volcanic Island (due to Sundering Titan) or even plain Mountain (your only blue card is Phyrexian metamorph)?

How does this deck play without any Moxen??

@Tangle Wire: It already won me games against Aggro Loam, Hive Mind and High Tide (only tested online), but I played the lock with Master Transmuter. I like it.
However it is crap against decks, which put more permanents into play than you do. (Zoo, Affinity, Elves, ..)

I think you nailed it there, Gemstone Mine is a good red and blue source that doesn't die to Sundering Titan. I personally do not play it though I might consider (with Ancient Grudge on the side against Null Rod)


I am also wondering about the lack of the Moxen. Doesn't it lose its explosiveness (which is the asset of the deck)?

Also, I think Tangle Wire should be sided out against Zoo and Elves in favour of Chalice of the Void. Chalice at one is devastating to both decks.

Hey sco0ter, can you share this Transmuter list of yours?

[sco0ter]

Note that I only playtest this in my local casual group and online.

This deck is a more controllish approach. Maybe I should consider Wurmcoil Engine (don't own them).


// 26
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Master Transmuter
4 Tangle Wire
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Thirst for Knowledge

// 4
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere

// 30 mana
2 Grim Monolith
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace


Slots that I test:
4 Everflowing Chalice is an experiment:
In theory it scales. It is similar to Thran Dynamo, more flexible, but more expensive. Enables fast 4 mana.
It can be dropped without kicker, just to enable Mox Opal or Goblin Welder.

Chalice otV is even playable MD with Transmuter. I can't really say which wins more games: Chalice or Lodestone.

I don't play that deck often, so I can't tell its weaknesses. I guess 2-3 Mox Diamond could be good.

@Gemstone Mine: When you land Sundering Titan you usually only lose one land (Volcanic Island), which doesn't hurt AND you win anyway most of the time.
I'd rather have stable land instead. Maybe even Shivan Reef if Titan is really an issue.

[(nameless one)]

Note that I only playtest this in my local casual group and online.

This deck is a more controllish approach. Maybe I should consider Wurmcoil Engine (don't own them).



Get Wurmcoils now. I have a feeling that theyre gonna go up in price as Standard season picks up.




-list-

Slots that I test:
4 Everflowing Chalice is an experiment:
In theory it scales. It is similar to Thran Dynamo, more flexible, but more expensive. Enables fast 4 mana.
It can be dropped without kicker, just to enable Mox Opal or Goblin Welder.



I see where you're going at. Also, a turn one Everflowing Chalice to a turn two TfK isn't a bad play. Hey, Maybe you should even consider Tezzeret's Gambit. Though losing a lot of life sucks against aggro sometimes though.



Chalice otV is even playable MD with Transmuter. I can't really say which wins more games: Chalice or Lodestone.


Being able to reset your Chalices (after your opponent has Brainstormed/Discarded the spells he can't play) sounds awesome. Though I have to say that an early game Lodestone Golem (followed by a Phyrexian Metamorph copying Lodestone) usually means game over. Hell, I have yet to lose to a first turn Lodestone (Sol Land> Grim Monolith> Grim Monolith or Voltaic Key> Lodestone Golem). Though a turn 1 Chalice of the Void against Zoo (or any deck with a saturated 1cc spells) is a tough battle for them.



I don't play that deck often, so I can't tell its weaknesses. I guess 2-3 Mox Diamond could be good.
[/quotes]

We suffer from the same sickness LOL. Though I find that the weakness of the deck is not being able to know your mulligan. The deck is as explosive as a Shrapnel Blast but if you don't know how to softlock the board as soon as possible, you're not gonna go far.

Mox Diamond helps that cause. I run 3 copies right now.

[quote]@Gemstone Mine: When you land Sundering Titan you usually only lose one land (Volcanic Island), which doesn't hurt AND you win anyway most of the time.
I'd rather have stable land instead. Maybe even Shivan Reef if Titan is really an issue.

Losing that Volcanic Island could be big though. Sure you have Moxes but you won't have them all the time. Its either that Dual Land or the Mox.

I think the allure behind Gemstone Mine is better sideboard option. Personally, if you're going to run Shivan Reef, I would run City of Brass instead. This way, you can have better sideboard options.

I wanted to discuss the card draw aspect. I've been meaning to test Forbidden Alchemy. It might not be great with Master Transmuter but its good in digging by itself and its great with Goblin Welder (better than TfK). The best part is that you can flashback it (as long as you have 7 mana including a Mox or a rainbow land to get it on).

Here's my current list. I have been having great success with it on Cockatrice as well as the local folks I play with:

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

Utility Artifacts:
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Mox Diamond
3 Tangle Wire
3 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal


Yes, I am running 61 cards. So far I don't know what to cut.

I have been liking Tangle Wire but I might cut it for Forbidden Alchemy, along with Rishadan Port and the Mountain for either City of Brass or Gemstone Mine

I miss playing Voltaic Key (I didn't run it along with Goblin Welder during Mental Misstep days and used Chalice of the Void instead).

I might even cut K. Forgemasters for Clone Shell to experiment with Welders. If it doesn't work out, I'll try Master Transmuter.

[sco0ter]

I've been meaning to test Forbidden Alchemy. It might not be great with Master Transmuter but its good in digging by itself and its great with Goblin Welder (better than TfK). The best part is that you can flashback it (as long as you have 7 mana including a Mox or a rainbow land to get it on).


Better than TfK? I mean with TfK you get 3 cards + your hand (lets say 5 cards) to chose an artifact from (for Welder). That is double that much as Alchemy allows to chose from, thus the probabilities to get a good artifact in GY is much higher.
Flashback is what makes it maybe better, otherwise I think TfK is still better.




I might even cut K. Forgemasters for Clone Shell to experiment with Welders. If it doesn't work out, I'll try Master Transmuter.

Don't cut Forgemasters for Shell... I'd rather play that 3/3 Golem for 5 which puts 2 other golems onto the battlefield before I add Shell.

[kwelts]

Been lurking the forums for a few weeks but now I need to ask a question about land choice: Why would you run Gemstone Mine over Glimmervoid? To me, Glimmervoid seems to be a better land as first turn there are usually 2 or more artifacts in play.

[dillonkbase]

has anyone tried phantasmal image? seems really good... you can target lodestone... if you pay two more... you can kill my worm coil... but i still get more tokens... seems pretty awsome

[kwelts]

the problems with phantasmal image are as follows:

1. cannot be searched with kuldotha forge master
2. cannot be revealed to opponent with metalworker for 2 mana.
3. cannot be equipped with lightning greaves for haste.

Phyrexian Metamorph does this job better, so if you like copying creatures, go with that card over phantasmal image.

[Zeisse]

Hi.

This is the link to the report:

http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,11554.0.html

R1 Zoo ( 0-2 )

R2 GW Maverick ( 2-1 )

R3 Merfolks ( 2-0 )

R4 ANT UB ( 2-1 )

R5 UW Thopter ( 2-0 )

R6 Time Spiral ( 2-1 )

R7 Necrotic ooze ( 0-2 )

R8 Reanimator ( 2-1 )

R9 Dredge ( 2-0 )


As you can see 9 different decks.

The gemstone mines should have been shivan reefs.

[Maveric78f]

Is there any reason for not playing 4*Metamorph ? It copies (generally at a cheaper cost) any card in the deck and this deck is a deck that takes advantage of multiples. Lodestone Golem is the best example but also Wurm/Hellkite.

[dillonkbase]

The gemstone mines should have been shivan reefs.

Just to clarify... Shivan reefs are good because they don't open you up to landwalk, particularly against merfolk?

[kwelts]

Is there any reason for not playing 4*Metamorph ? It copies (generally at a cheaper cost) any card in the deck and this deck is a deck that takes advantage of multiples. Lodestone Golem is the best example but also Wurm/Hellkite.

yeah. ever got a starting hand with 3 metamorphs, mox opal, mox diamond and 2 lands? doesn't go anywhere. you only want to draw it later in the game, so having just a few is a better idea.

[(nameless one)]

I might even cut K. Forgemasters for Clone Shell to experiment with Welders. If it doesn't work out, I'll try Master Transmuter.

I tested it and it didn't work out the way I planned it to be. I am happy with my list so I won't even bother testing Master Transmuter.



Better than TfK? I mean with TfK you get 3 cards + your hand (lets say 5 cards) to chose an artifact from (for Welder). That is double that much as Alchemy allows to chose from, thus the probabilities to get a good artifact in GY is much higher.
Flashback is what makes it maybe better, otherwise I think TfK is still better.


Haven't testing this much yet. It was all based on theorycrafting so I can't tell yet.




Don't cut Forgemasters for Shell... I'd rather play that 3/3 Golem for 5 which puts 2 other golems onto the battlefield before I add Shell.

I'm sticking with Forgemasters, though I am still paranoid with Stifle.


Been lurking the forums for a few weeks but now I need to ask a question about land choice: Why would you run Gemstone Mine over Glimmervoid? To me, Glimmervoid seems to be a better land as first turn there are usually 2 or more artifacts in play.

He/she makes a good point with Glimmervoid. Though I could picture it would suck if someone Shattering Spreed your board. Though if that happens with Gemstone Mine (or Shivan Reef) as your land, you probably have lost anyways.



Phyrexian Metamorph does this job better, so if you like copying creatures, go with that card over phantasmal image.

Not only that, Phyrexian Metamorph also copies key artifacts such as Tangle Wires. P.Metamorph also has a great synergy with Goblin Welder.


Hi.

This is the link to the report:

http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,11554.0.html

R1 Zoo ( 0-2 )

R2 GW Maverick ( 2-1 )

R3 Merfolks ( 2-0 )

R4 ANT UB ( 2-1 )

R5 UW Thopter ( 2-0 )

R6 Time Spiral ( 2-1 )

R7 Necrotic ooze ( 0-2 )

R8 Reanimator ( 2-1 )

R9 Dredge ( 2-0 )


As you can see 9 different decks.

The gemstone mines should have been shivan reefs.

Even though you didn't make top 16, still good job in pulling that off in a big tournament. I tried using Google Translate on it but it sucked. Half of the interpretations didn't make sense. Though I got the jist of it.

I am confused with your AnT matchup with your friend and the Merfolk matchup. Can you elaborate on that here please?

Thanks.

I am working on a new primer for this deck as the OP doesn't really tell much. Hopefully Michael Bomholt visits us again and share a couple things.

[dillonkbase]

So I was looking to give this deck some non-combat reach and tried out staff of domination... but I was wondering if anyone has toyed around with Bosh. I lost yesterday to a blazing archon and then like 4 ensnaring bridges(2 matchups) and thought flinging robots at peoples heads could be good?

[(nameless one)]

So I was looking to give this deck some non-combat reach and tried out staff of domination... but I was wondering if anyone has toyed around with Bosh. I lost yesterday to a blazing archon and then like 4 ensnaring bridges(2 matchups) and thought flinging robots at peoples heads could be good?

Never toyed with Bosh, though my reason would be quickly take over board advantage before your opponent can do anything.

If you're thinking of siding Bosh in, wouldn't you just try to slow your opponent down with both Chalice and Thorn of Amethyst. Though I do understand that Lodestone Golem doesn't really do much in slowing down Ensnaring Bridges.

Also, for against popular graveyard decks, I don't think Tormod Crypt or any grave hate is needed as both Chalice (at one) and Thornof Amethyst should do a fine job in slowing the said decks.

[dillonkbase]

Sooooo...

Chalice for ensnaring brige at 3 mana is pretty difficult against lands... wasteland plus ghost quarter... I had chalice on one and two pretty often last night.

Anyway seems like bosh could replace staff in my build and could be good. Boshing with a wurmcoil and then weldering it back seems good?

[Svizcy]

Hi all. Just registered here to be able to participate in this thread for starters. :)
Let me just say i love the idea of this MUD type deck and i'm planing to run this in my local tourny this sunday.
So without further delay, here is the list i'm working with atm:
Lands(19):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures(23):
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
Spells(18):
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Karn Liberated

Sideboard(15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Ametyst (not quite sure about this one yet)
3 open spots( if anyone has good suggestions it would be appreaciated)

So this is bassicly it, i'm open to all suggestions.
The metagame consists of:
2-3 Team america type decks,
2 Storm type decks,
1-2 reanimators,
3 Zoo decks,
1 Enchantress,
2 Maverick types (one with black splash other with just GW),
2-3 Junks.

good day, svizcy

[dillonkbase]

Hi all. Just registered here to be able to participate in this thread for starters. :)
Let me just say i love the idea of this MUD type deck and i'm planing to run this in my local tourny this sunday.
So without further delay, here is the list i'm working with atm:
Lands(19):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures(23):
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
Spells(18):
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Karn Liberated

Sideboard(15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Ametyst (not quite sure about this one yet)
3 open spots( if anyone has good suggestions it would be appreaciated)

So this is bassicly it, i'm open to all suggestions.
The metagame consists of:
2-3 Team america type decks,
2 Storm type decks,
1-2 reanimators,
3 Zoo decks,
1 Enchantress,
2 Maverick types (one with black splash other with just GW),
2-3 Junks.

good day, svizcy

So, I would consider 1 basic mountain over the 3rd citadel (path to exile).
And then my bias is to run 3 Phyrexian Metamorph over some of those keys and tops.

The last 3 slots could be a crucible of worlds and 2 tormod's crypt

[Svizcy]

I really don't know if Phyrexian Metamorph is that good. The thing is that this deck really suffers from inconsistency, like 50% of my oppening hands are with no lands or just with noth enaugh mana ramp to keep them. So therefore cutting tops is not a good idea imho.

Crucibles might be ok for sb.

Thanks for ideas, and i'm still open to more oppinions. Inconsistency is the main issue this deck has.

good day, svizcy

[(nameless one)]

I wouldn't remove Voltaic Key in the Welder builds because it enables so much brokeness with Grim Monolith, such as a turn 1 Lodestone Golem.

On the other hand, Metamorphs are recommended.

As for the sideboard, ever tried Summoning Trap?

[Awesomesuace]

Im not 100% sure on how to fix the inconsistency part but i do think crystal vein as the sol lands 9 to 12 do help with the dependency on too many lands needed to play bombs or drawing too many lands because of it etc.
Perhaps more risky but im trying to combine aggromud with a decent mix of control which usually the more traditional stax decks have.
Ideally to try to get the best of both versions.

//NAME: LegacyStax
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

// Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Batterskull
1 Mishra's Helix
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Darksteel Forge

I really would like to find room for Tangle Wire also but it would probably be sideboarded every game with revoker anyway so maindeck i have some redundancy in more threat cards like Wurmcoil Engine, Hellkite etc.

Would love to hear more experienced players suggest possible adjustments.
This is so much fun to play, im actually thinking on playing this at the Grand Prix in Amsterdam. This or Dredge :) since i dont own any duals / force of will's / jaces goyfs etc :).

[kwelts]

I'm finding that with these decklists you need to mulligan more often than others. Kinda makes me wish that WotC screwed up more with the artifact lands and made a Artifact sol land.

overall, it feels very solid except versus dredge. I'm thinking for that I will add to my sideboard Engineered Explosives.

[Fropper]

Why EE? Zombie tokens are better stopped by Ratchet Bomb

[kwelts]

Why EE? Zombie tokens are better stopped by Ratchet Bomb

because EE is free to cast.

[GoldenCid]

And needs 2 to activate and your sunburst will be always 0

[kwelts]

And needs 2 to activate and your sunburst will be always 0

okay so they are both iffy. maybe there should be something more.

[GoldenCid]

? I. Thought that you want to blow out zombie tokens! I hesitate that dredge daze it

[kwelts]

? I. Thought that you want to blow out zombie tokens! I hesitate that dredge daze it

yeah i realized that in hindsight. I edited the post before you responded. they are both iffy.

[Darth Nihilus]

Sooo no discussion on Copper Gnomes yet?
they seem insane together with metalworkers, basicly it means having 8 ways to slam down a turn 3 fattie like BSC


EDIT: they allready skyrocketed from 2€ to 11 € <.<

[kwelts]

Sooo no discussion on Copper Gnomes yet?
they seem insane together with metalworkers, basicly it means having 8 ways to slam down a turn 3 fattie like BSC


EDIT: they allready skyrocketed from 2€ to 11 € <.<

as good as they seem, you either need a fattie in your hand (meaning he is bad for being top decked) and his ability is very expensive for early game pressure. He is very good but i feel he is too slow in the deck.

On another note, can people post me their sideboards? mine has 14 cards and i can't decide on the 15th:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion
1 ?

[Darth Nihilus]

as good as they seem, you either need a fattie in your hand (meaning he is bad for being top decked) and his ability is very expensive for early game pressure. He is very good but i feel he is too slow in the deck.

On another note, can people post me their sideboards? mine has 14 cards and i can't decide on the 15th:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion
1 ?


well he got a few pros and cons

hes bad if u got no fattie in hand but on the other he hand he offers counter protectiong or he eats a removal instead of your fatties, he needs to be treated like metalworker(kill it or loose). also he can push through some lockpieces

[dillonkbase]

Would need to see your maindeck to suggest sides, but I would be playing chalice maindeck, and then some thorns somewhere in my 75

[kwelts]

Would need to see your maindeck to suggest sides, but I would be playing chalice maindeck, and then some thorns somewhere in my 75

ok here it is. As for the last remaining sideboard slot, I am going to try out 1 Duplicant.

Here is my 75:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
Creatures [24]

4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Staff of Domination
4 Voltaic Key
Spells [18]

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Battlefield Forge
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
Lands [18]

SIDEBOARD
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Duplicant
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Trinisphere

the card that is in question for my list is the Duplicant so if anyone has better ideas for a slot there, feel free to enlighten me on the topic.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Copper Gnomes are not Metalworker #5-8. Instead, Copper Gnomes serve a similar role as Goblin Welder: beat Counter Magic. Blue players can let a Metalworker resolve and then remove it, but a Copper Gnomes must be answered before they hit the battlefield, or by Stifle. Moreover, Gnomes do not need to accelerate to be effective. For example, Gnomes into a Forgemaster is a good play when you have enough Artifacts to sacrifice. Along this line, I would say Gnomes are essential for the non-Welder builds, and debatable for the Welder builds.

Welder or not, I have found Voltaic Key win-more most of the time. Granted, it enables countless broken plays, but that would require another threat on the battlefield, which alone should be ready to ride you to victory. Voltaic Key is the worst card in attrition, a card your opponent should never counter, discard, or Needle. That said, it becomes very useful when you try to race a combo deck, but I would rather have 4 Chalice of the Void in the place.

@kwelts: against which decks do you really need Phyrexian Revoker or Platinum Angel? How do you like the MD Steel Hellkite?

[kwelts]

phyrexian revoker versus stone-blade. platinum angel versus hive mind. steel hell kite is nice in the MD as a 1-of. it helps when you find out first game that you are versus goblins/zoo/dredge.

[kwelts]

does anyone know how this deck is supposed to answer a main decked blazing archon in reanimator game 1? is it just an automatic loss?

[Grymer]

does anyone know how this deck is supposed to answer a main decked blazing archon in reanimator game 1? is it just an automatic loss?

Karn Liberated ?

[kwelts]

Karn Liberated ?

well he isn't an artifact, so how do you fetch him when you need him? He certainly isn't a 4-of in this deck.

[Hopo]

does anyone know how this deck is supposed to answer a main decked blazing archon in reanimator game 1? is it just an automatic loss?

I would be more worried about Jin-gitaxias, but I believe you should play at least one copy of Duplicant in maindeck, nonetheless.

[dillonkbase]

yeah, you have to have a maindeck duplicant.

[manugl84]

I´m running a singleton of Spine of ish sah in my welder build with nice results.

[kwelts]

I´m running a singleton of Spine of ish sah in my welder build with nice results.

can you post your list? I cannot make room for it.

P.S.- wouldn't you rather have cards that stay in GY for welder? it seems easier than to recast it every time as it might get countered.

[Antonius]

are colorless artifact lands really better than Rishadan Port?

[Koby]

are colorless artifact lands really better than Rishadan Port?

In order to turn on Metalworker, yes.

[manugl84]

can you post your list? I cannot make room for it.

P.S.- wouldn't you rather have cards that stay in GY for welder? it seems easier than to recast it every time as it might get countered.

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Goblin Welder
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1Sundering Titan
1Steel hellkite
4Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4Metalworker

3 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Tangle Wire
3 Voltaic key

4 Ancient Tomb
4City of Traitors
4 Shivan reef
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the void
3 Phyrexian revoker
2 Tormod´s crypt
1Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian metamorph

I´ve been playing with this list for a while but i added the spine two weeks ago due to things like jace, emrakul and reanimator targets. It´s really funny to show the spine with a show and tell vs Emrakul:laugh:

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys,

Haven't really touched this deck in a month now. Been too busy with other things. Anyways, I saw that Dark Ascension spoiled card (Faithless Looting). I actually think its going to be a great addition to the Welder builds. It can be abusable with Welder (welding back discarded artifact like Reanimator) and its a draw spell. The flashback is icing on te cake.

So what do you guys think?



are colorless artifact lands really better than Rishadan Port?


In order to turn on Metalworker, yes.

Personally outside of Great Furnace, I don't like running artifact lands. I even run that miser Mountain. It just sucks having your lands getting shutdown with Null Rod or Energy Flux.

[allek]

This is an awesome, powerful and fun deck. A bit too inconsistent even for tier 1.5 though. I went 3-1 on our last weekly tournament (22 players) with this list:

Eva Braun

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Batterskull
1 Platinum Angel
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Domination

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Voltaic Key
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal

4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

I'll play a similar list today and after that, try to slim the toolbox since most of it is just win-more gravy.

[tsabo_tavoc]

This is an awesome, powerful and fun deck. A bit too inconsistent even for tier 1.5 though. I went 3-1 on our last weekly tournament (22 players) with this list:

Eva Braun

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Batterskull
1 Platinum Angel
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Domination

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Voltaic Key
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal

4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

I'll play a similar list today and after that, try to slim the toolbox since most of it is just win-more gravy.

The deck is "too" inconsistent because you run "4" Voltaic Key. What does it do for you that you really need? To make the deck consistent, cut down to 0 copy and put in real business. Also, as 6 mana is about as easily achievable as 5 mana in this deck, Wurmcoil Engine is better than Batterskull.

I am working on a mono-red list with Lotus Petal and have liked it better than Mox Diamond.

[kwelts]

The deck is "too" inconsistent because you run "4" Voltaic Key. What does it do for you that you really need? To make the deck consistent, cut down to 0 copy and put in real business. Also, as 6 mana is about as easily achievable as 5 mana in this deck, Wurmcoil Engine is better than Batterskull.

I am working on a mono-red list with Lotus Petal and have liked it better than Mox Diamond.

actually I'm liking my voltaic keys in my deck. they let me draw more cards off top to fuel my metalworker, and if i don't draw him, they let me untap my monolith easily for mana accel. I find myself able to keep a lot of 1 land hands and be explosive because of it.

[tsabo_tavoc]

actually I'm liking my voltaic keys in my deck. they let me draw more cards off top to fuel my metalworker, and if i don't draw him, they let me untap my monolith easily for mana accel. I find myself able to keep a lot of 1 land hands and be explosive because of it.

1. If you have a Monolith on board, you do not have mana problems, and would rather the Key being a threat or protection.

2. If you have a Metalworker ready to tap, you should be winning, with or without a Key.

3. If you play Top + Key as a late game draw engine, something has gone wrong. If the Key were a threat or protection, the game could have been closed.

4. If you keep 1 lander with a Key, you have taken risk and would rather the Key being a Land.

I am not denying the utilities of Voltaic Key, but it is only a mana source when accompanied by a nonland mana source; only a threat (by untap) when accompanied by a threat. However, MUD is a deck that sticks a single threat to victory (thus many slots for protection), and only needs to tap nonland mana source once to win. As Voltaic Key does nothing on its own, it impairs the consistency of the deck.

[(nameless one)]

1. If you have a Monolith on board, you do not have mana problems, and would rather the Key being a threat or protection.

2. If you have a Metalworker ready to tap, you should be winning, with or without a Key.

3. If you play Top + Key as a late game draw engine, something has gone wrong. If the Key were a threat or protection, the game could have been closed.

4. If you keep 1 lander with a Key, you have taken risk and would rather the Key being a Land.

I am not denying the utilities of Voltaic Key, but it is only a mana source when accompanied by a nonland mana source; only a threat (by untap) when accompanied by a threat. However, MUD is a deck that sticks a single threat to victory (thus many slots for protection), and only needs to tap nonland mana source once to win. As Voltaic Key does nothing on its own, it impairs the consistency of the deck.

Now that you mentioned it, I'll try to revise my version. So far, I am running 2 Keys. While it can create some crazy shenanigans with Grim Monolith (like a turn 1 Lodestone Golem), you do make a fine point.

The problem I find with Grim Monolith without the Key is that you have to be very careful on when to use it. If the spell you're trying to cast using Monolith mana gets countered, without the Key, Monolith doesn't really help. I guess the same can be argued with Dark Rituals in Tendrils-based decks.

Has anyone tried proxying Faithless Looting? Does/would it actually help or does it suffer from the Gamble syndrome?

[allek]

Okay, so I finished 8th out of 23 players today by winning 2 and losing 2 games with the list above. Not stellar but really promising. I lost against the players finishing 1 and 2 in the tournament.

Merfolks: G1 I just have to grind him out of counters and Dismembers, then win with hasted Titan. G2 is similar but goes on much longer with me going down to 6 life before I can stabilize by sticking a Metalworker, unloading a few guys and Titan the next turn.

Affinity: G1 chalice blocks his Dispatch and my guys run him over. G2 I keep Revoker + Wasteland in hope to deny him mana and Aether Vial. This works fine until he blows me out completely with Ancient Grudge and then double Master of Etherium + Phantasmal Image as a third master. G3 I have manadenial in Wasteland, a mox for his mox and Revoker for vial. Double Batterskull seals the deal.

UR Painter: Tough match, his combo is faster and an active welder is close to autowin for him. G1 he has the combo turn 2, G2 he should have won but miscalculated a key play and G3 i keep a scetchy hand beacuse it has revoker + chalice. He has double force and topdecks better than me. he placed 1st going 4-0.

Esperblade: Fair matchup. he plays but keeps a hand without counters and goes for Dark Confidant, tapping out. Turn 2, I unload Batterskull + Lodestone Golem through a hasted Metalworker. G3 i keep a 50/50 hand consisting of 2 Chalice of the Void, 1 Grim Monolith, 1 Revoker, 1 Lodestone, 1 Greaves but only 1 City of Traitors. I figure out that if Chalice will stick and I draw a second sol-land or Land + Land/Key I will win. He mulls to 6, forces the first chalice, the second sticks, my revoker (jace) sticks but I fail to draw a land for 6 turns leaving 4 must-counter-or-lose spells stuck in my hand. He finishes second on 4-0.

Thoughts: Batterskulls have been good to me all games and I actually think that the difference between 5 and 6 mana for Wurmcoil is a big deal. Batterskull is better against STP but worse against Dismember. I boarded out my toolbox almost every games and should probably add some good cheap cards instead of expensve bombs, the deck has enough of them as it is. Phyrexian Metamorph is really versatile but 1-2 is enough.

Changes I'm considering:

-1 Lightning Greaves
-1 Karn
-1 Voltaic Key
-1 Platinum Angel

+2 Spellskite
+2 All Is Dust

[tsabo_tavoc]

Now that you mentioned it, I'll try to revise my version. So far, I am running 2 Keys. While it can create some crazy shenanigans with Grim Monolith (like a turn 1 Lodestone Golem), you do make a fine point.

The problem I find with Grim Monolith without the Key is that you have to be very careful on when to use it. If the spell you're trying to cast using Monolith mana gets countered, without the Key, Monolith doesn't really help. I guess the same can be argued with Dark Rituals in Tendrils-based decks.

Has anyone tried proxying Faithless Looting? Does/would it actually help or does it suffer from the Gamble syndrome?

Indeed, it is painful to have a threat countered, but there are have Welder, Copper Gnomes, and Metalworker to bait or recover. If not, you would spend one more turn to recharge the Monolith. Voltaic Key helps to speed things up, but it costs a card, and hence the consistency. Moreover, nobody bothers to counter Voltaic Key.

Faithless Looting does not look good from paper. It forces the deck go more red as it works best with Welder, and hence strains the manabase. Moreover, it eats up more Artifact slots and makes many Artifacts worse. That said, there has been builds with both Welder and Thirst for Knowledge (I am not a fan of it), where Looting could possibly replace Knowledge. However, Thirst for Knowledge is good on its own, while Looting is not.


Thoughts: Batterskulls have been good to me all games and I actually think that the difference between 5 and 6 mana for Wurmcoil is a big deal. Batterskull is better against STP but worse against Dismember. I boarded out my toolbox almost every games and should probably add some good cheap cards instead of expensve bombs, the deck has enough of them as it is. Phyrexian Metamorph is really versatile but 1-2 is enough.

Changes I'm considering:

-1 Lightning Greaves
-1 Karn
-1 Voltaic Key
-1 Platinum Angel

+2 Spellskite
+2 All Is Dust

Congrats to the solid performance. The Painter MU is indeed unfavourable especially as you did not have Welder. I am curious on Round 4, Game 3, did you play the Golem off the Sol land and Monolith?

I like your argument on StP and Dismember. As Chalice has Pro: StP, I would choose Engine as Pro: Dismember (and any other removal). Batterskull is not really good against removal as 3 + 5 mana is a heavy investment.

Last but not least, I really like your changes to the maindeck. Spellskite is insane. All is Dust would be total nuts if it were an Artifact.

[kwelts]

1. If you have a Monolith on board, you do not have mana problems, and would rather the Key being a threat or protection.
...
4. If you keep 1 lander with a Key, you have taken risk and would rather the Key being a Land.



All i was saying is that a sol land + key + monolith = not needing a metalworker to play your bombs.

Example: Hand contains land, city of traitors, Monolith, steel hellkite. turn one land, turn 2 city and monolith, turn 3 hellkite.
if the land were the key (based on your 4th point), turn 1 city for monolith, turn 2 key and hellkite (also the great thing here is that you don't need to think hard about whether you want the creature to attack or block because with key it does both). Vigilanced big creature 1 turn earlier.

I do hear you that in some cases that its better to have other things, but I've won many games versus aggro with keys vigilancing creatures or untapping and retapping my metalworker to cast 2 bombs in a single turn. Regarding that I've noticed that keys add on average 2-8 mana per tap.

...perhaps you are right that 4 is too many though. i'll try testing 3 keys + 1 trinisphere in maindeck.

[(nameless one)]

I think 3 is the right number for Keys in the Welder builds. My list runs 3 right now.

As for Trinisphere, I tested it before. Not having Mishra's Workshop hurts its chances. Its better to have it in the side. But then, both Chalice and Thorn or Amethyst are better sideboard cards compared to Trinisphere.

Why? Because both can come down on turn one. While its not impossible to pull of, its also a rare occurence to have it on the first turn when it matters.

You're actually better with Tangle Wire instead of testing Trinisphere.

[kwelts]

As for Trinisphere, I tested it before. Not having Mishra's Workshop hurts its chances. Its better to have it in the side. But then, both Chalice and Thorn or Amethyst are better sideboard cards compared to Trinisphere.


Wouldn't Sphere of Resistance be better than thorn of amethyst? i mean it hurts yu a small amount as well but it can prevent explosive starts from affinity, goblins, zoo, elves etc.

[(nameless one)]

Against Zoo and Elves (and some extent Affinity), Chalice gets the job done. You usually want to sideboard Thorns against control and Storm-based combo matchups.

[kwelts]

ok so i've gotten a lot of good info for this deck so far. one more question. how do we deal with a null rod from the sideboard? Spine costs too much without worker, and duplicant doesnt kill it. is it just a scoop?

[(nameless one)]

ok so i've gotten a lot of good info for this deck so far. one more question. how do we deal with a null rod from the sideboard? Spine costs too much without worker, and duplicant doesnt kill it. is it just a scoop?

Not really. You just hope to hit your lands and land a Wurmcoil Engine or a similar beater before its too late.

I am actually more scared of seeing Back to Basics across the field.

[kwelts]

Not really. You just hope to hit your lands and land a Wurmcoil Engine or a similar beater before its too late.

I am actually more scared of seeing Back to Basics across the field.

well maybe an ancient grudge or 2 are in order in the sideboard. the only room i have in my sideboard is 2 slots where my tormod's crypts are though :S

we'd have to run karplusan forests or whatever the red/green painland is called as part of our land source.

[conboy31]

I am going to rebuild this deck for a while and try out some variations. My first question is I see a lot of people running wasteland but no longer having crucible or trinisphere in the main. I wonder if trimming a pair for buried ruin would be more beneficial.

[kwelts]

I am going to rebuild this deck for a while and try out some variations. My first question is I see a lot of people running wasteland but no longer having crucible or trinisphere in the main. I wonder if trimming a pair for buried ruin would be more beneficial.

wastelands are good because once you land a lodestone golem or sundering titan, you can use the wastelands to seal the deal. The ruins are nice but academy ruins is better and even then its not nearly as good as the welder that you run anyways.

[Fropper]

Last Sunday we went with 8 man from Aachen to play in the Dutch Legacy Championship in Eindhoven.
We arrived at 9:30 and registered for the event, but the tournament wouldn't start until 11, so we played a round of EDH first.

The first round began on time, we were 145 players so we played 8 rounds + Top 8 Single elimination.

Decklist First:

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Buried Ruins

Ramp
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key
3 Metalworker

Tanks
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Platinum Emperion


Stuff
4 Chalice of the Void
1 All is Dust
2 Karn Liberated
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Sideboard
2 Sundering Titan
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Trinisphere
1 Karn Liberated
2 All is Dust
4 Cursed Totem


The description is not very detailed because I didn't take notes and I just have lives total, who went first etc., the rest is what I remember.

Round 1 vs. Blade Esper (Luke Broeke)
G1: I won the die roll and both keep their starting 7. I shock myself a few times with my Ancient Tombs, and bring him down to 0 within a few turns.
SB: +1 Karn -1 All is Dust

G2: I can't get a creature on the field or they get sworded/pathed. He knocks me to 0 with SFM + Batterskull + Snapcaster.

G3: Again everything gets countered or sworded, in the meantime I got to 26 life due to the swords, but he slowly nibbs away my life total. In the 5th extra turn he can bring me down to 0.

That was my first (and only loss) of the day.

0-1 1-2

Round 2 vs. GWB Maverik with Bob (Kim van den Eng)
G1: I shock myself again a few times with my Tomb, but I can decimate her life total quite fast, my tanks are protected, because I have a revoker on Pridemage and a Chalice at 1.

SB: -3 MW -1 Steel Hellkite +4 Cursed Totem

G2: I mull to 6, holding a hand with 4 lands and 2 Lodestone golems. The opponent begins with a hierarch. T2 I can play a Cursed Totem, Kim does not know the card and must read it first. T3 is Lodestone Number 1, wich get pathed promptly. T4 Lodestone number 2, once again pathed. Meanwhile, I drew a Chalice and another Lodestone. So T5 first a Chalice at 1 followed by Lodestone Number 3. T6 she is on one life and I found the 4th (!) Lodestone, while my opponent was still on 3 lands. As a last desperate attempt she tries to sword one on them, but I just ypoint to my chalice1 and she concedes.

1-1 3-2

Round 3 vs. BUG Landstill (Jeroen van Beeck)
This was probably my fastest match of the day
G1: I win the dice roll. Me Land, go. He Flooded Strand , go. T2 I play a revoker naming SFM. The next turns I play a few tanks, one of them got forced . I kill him with wurmcoil and Lodestone in a few turns.

SB: +4 Trinisphere -something (all is dust or something)

G2: I resolve a Revoker, but because I didn't saw a white producing land in G1, I decide to name Deed instead. Next turn I played a MW, which got forced, then a second MW.T4 he plays a standstill, but then I show him enough artifacts with my MW for 2 big tanks who both aren't answered by him. My opponent scoops. After the game he shows me his hand with two Deeds.

2-1 5-2

Round 4 vs. GW Maverik (Tim Van Der Lans)
G1: I win the die roll.. My life fluctuates a little getting shocked by my tomb and Revoker + MWgetting sworded, but eventually an engine sticks who brings him down fast.

SB: Standard Package for Maverik: -3 MW -1 Steel Hellkite +4 Cursed Totem

G2: I can atack him once with an engine before it gets sworded then he ran me over with Goyf. Was a relatively short game.

G3: I can cast a Cursed Totem, after my revoker naming pridemage got sworded. Then a Chalice comes down at 1 and 2, a Lodestone finish the game quickly in my favor.

3-1 7-3

Round 5 vs. GWU Maverik with Geist of Saint Traft (Has this deck a Name?) (Ward Poulisse)

G1: The Geist is a surprise for me, haven't seen him in Legacy before. thanks to Pridemage he hits me for 7 on turn 3, T4 another attack, this time with a few little friends beating me for 12 damage, game over. (I took 2 damage using my Tomb).

SB: Standard Package for Maverik: -3 MW -1 Steel Hellkite +4 Cursed Totem

G2: I play the bigger creatures, protected by a Chalice at 1. I roll over him, he has no chance.

G3: We are stalling a bit back and forth and it does not look good for me. However, I could resolve a Chalice at 1 and Cursed Totem. Then when a topdecked Emperon etb, he scooped, because he has no out.

4-1 9-4

Round 6 vs. Delver Tempo first and only game against a non-Dutch (Marcel Kroll)

G1: I start trying Chalice at 1 in T1 which gets forced. T2 a 2nd attempt which is successful. I can throw more tanks on the field (including a revoker on Fireball :D) and he scooped.

SB: -3 Revoker -1 All is Dust +4 Trinisphere

G2: He starts with T1 Delver, my ramp and tanks get countered, so the Delver (flipped immediatley ofc) goes all the way.

G3: At least I could start this game, after mulling down to 6 I have a hand with a T1 Chalice at 1 followed by T2 Trinisphere and T3 Lodestone + Wasteland for one of his two tropicals. He scoops while still at 20 life. The Matchup is all about whether or not he can Force T1.

5-1 11-5

Round 7 vs. DDANT hybrid (Jamie Westlake)

G1: He wins the roll. T1 he puts Swamp + top. That can mean only one thing for me. T1 I cast Revoker naming LED + Chalice at 0. After a Turn 3 Lodestone Golem he scoops.

SB: +4 -2 Trinisphere Karn All is Dust -1 -1 Hellkite Steel

The head judge does a deck check and comes back five minutes later. The deck of my opponent is fine, I was asked to the Head station. In my Deckbox was a 16th Card (A previously lend Flusterstorm, of course not in the same sleeves as my deck). The Judge discussed a bit, but is mercifull, only giving me a warning, because I could not play the card (Thank God i don't play the blue MUD version). We get 10 minutes extra time (which I don't need in this Matchup anyway)

G2: He starts T1 Land + Top. I have a Chalice at 1 in T1, then a Trinisphere T2, Lodestone in T3, he scoops.

6-1 13-5

Round 8 vs. Delver Tempo (Jan van der Vegt)

We draw so we both get into top 8.

6-1-1 13-5


Top 8: We split the prizes and everyone gets € 175. Four Dutch want to play for the Cup, I don't need it, money is enough for me :).


Some thoughts:
-During the whole Tourny I only had to mull 3-4 times, the deck ran really smooth.
-I never got a single wurm token, either they were forced, sworded/pathed or I won the game, without the engines getting destroyed.
-Dust Bowl wasn't needed at all, i think i'll play a 4th Mishras.

[kwelts]

what did you think of thran dynamo in the MD?

[Fropper]

Well, how could you not run it MD? It's an important pillar in this deck afterall, I would never play this deck without it (I doubt a strictly better card will be printed ever ofc)

[kwelts]

Well, how could you not run it MD? It's an important pillar in this deck afterall, I would never play this deck without it (I doubt a strictly better card will be printed ever ofc)

i run welders in its place, and a 4th MW.

[kwelts]

now that i think about it, unlike monolith its negative ramp the turn you play it.

[Fropper]

so is metalworker, unless you play greaves and have one in play already.
And if you run welder, you play a whole different build and need to add moxen and red artifact lands

[kwelts]

so is metalworker, unless you play greaves and have one in play already.
And if you run welder, you play a whole different build and need to add moxen and red artifact lands

ah i see. great to hear it worked out at a tournament with over 100 :P

[allek]

Another tuesday, another tournament. Played the same list I posted earlier except I switched Karn Liberated and Battlesphere for Duplicant and Steel Hellkite. I still play 4 Greaves and 4 Keys since I want to test the deck more before shaving some numbers to add 1-offs and tech.

R1 - UB Stax brew. He plays Ensaring Bridge to which I have no out. I do the only thing I can, deny him mana and force him to keep cards in hand. When he has 3 cards, I go for infinity and play 4 Forgemaster + 4 Lightning Greaves and swing for lethal 12. Karn would have been nice. G2 he wins on double Inkmoth Nexus + bridge, G3 I Revoke his double Mox Diamond and win easily with Blightsteel Colossus.

1-0

R2 - Hive Mind. He wins the die roll but I manage to get first game. Can't remember how but most likely through hasted golems. G2 I have Thorn of Amethyst X 2 and Golems and force him to play out his combo over two turns which is way to slow.

2-0

R3 - Affinity. Superb matchup, my deck has better acceleration, bigger dudes and combo, I win both games in less than 15 minutes.

3-0

R4 - Bant. Facing my dear friend Per in the finals is nice. We're the only undefeated so we ID. Still play the match though. G1 he has a rather cold hand with not enough removal or disruption. I go infinite and attack with a hasted Colossus after many turns of drawing blanks for my Metalworker. G2 he Spell Pierces my Grim Monolith and drops a Knight one turn later. I have the wrong combination of lands + dudes in my hand and scoop immediately. G3 I keep a super-aggressive hand that scoops to FOW and STP but I'm thinking let's go for it! since we've already ID. Sac Crystal Vein > Monolith > Metalworker go. It resolves, he lives and I drop my hand. Per stays in the game for a few turns but eventually I draw some gas and beat him down.

3-0-1 and second due to tiebreakers, 22 players.

One-off Karn is a must against Ensnaring Bridge, also Sundering Titan would be sweet against Bant.

[kwelts]

i have two flexible slots in my sideboard that im testing Seal of Primordium for said ensnaring bridges, null rods, and back to basics. If they land those first (especially the latter two) it is a huge issue so I like the idea of casting it early to slow them down or nullify it altogether.

[Heresy]

I'm testing this mono brown list and I feel like playing vintage...

4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated

Turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Lodestone Golem make people concede. 3 Crucible is a necessity for stability and wastelocking. I run 20 lands but there's Metalworker and 8 more mana source. Revoker maindeck is good, the more disruption, the merrier.

[mordraid]

I'm reading this thread for a while now and i'm wondering if there's another thread for kuldotha forgemaster oriented decks ?

I really like meandeck mud and i'm playing a kinda hybrid mean-kuldotha-mud.


Quick question on the side : I don't own any wurmcoil engine. Are they worth the investment or they could just be replace by some 1-of fatties in a kuldotha build ? I do use 4 steel hellkite because i always find mayself in a position that a rather want destroying other peoples permanent than gaining lives. Thus the reasoning behing the validity of the wurmcoil engines.

[Fropper]

well it's not only lifegain vs destruction, the engine always generates life where the dragon only destroys things when you attack and he is unblocked, furthermore you need to spend mana to destroy things (unless you want to kill tokens/moxen/etc ofc). The dragon can be killed by dismember aswell!

Pro Engine:
-bigger
-doesn't die to dismember
-lifelink
-deathtouch
-abilities are (more) useful when used as blocker
-leaves two smaller tokens when destroyed
Pro Dragon:
-evasion
-can destroy permanents while attacking and isn't blocked
-can be pumped at two mana per point of damage

[kwelts]

Hey Fropper, what matchups do you choose to run sundering titan and phyrexian metamorph from your sideboard? The more I am playing my welder list, the more I am seeing how your deck is built more stable.