[Deck] Meandeck MUD

[ShiftyKapree]

mis post guys sry

[kwelts]

so i've been playing a welder forgemaster build vs many decks and have come to discover a glaring weakness in the deck... forgemaster!

to everyone playing the deck. if you have been toolboxing with forgemaster and not winning much, that's why. I'm starting to see the strength in colorless builds so I dropped my forgemasters to complete my set of steel hellkites, and dropped sensei's tops and other 1-of's for more control elements that many control decks use. Also dropped the mana curve down so Accel is less crucial to playing bigger threats.

my list now looks like this (any feedback no matter how harsh is welcome as long as there is a constructive elements to it):


4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
Creatures = 23

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
Other Spells = 19

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
2 Karplusan Forest
4 Wasteland
Lands = 18

And the sideboard:

3 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Summoning Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere

im still figuring out what i need in my sideboard but I feel the deck is very solid now compared to the forgemaster builds now that stifle is around.

[kwelts]

I also have a question to everyone. Why is Precursor Golem a 4-of in many vintage MUD decks, but never used in legacy versions?

[264505]

I also have a question to everyone. Why is Precursor Golem a 4-of in many vintage MUD decks, but never used in legacy versions?

Because StP, Path, and/or Bolt are in almost every deck in legacy and are no where near as prevalent in Vintage.

[manugl84]

Because StP, Path, and/or Bolt are in almost every deck in legacy and are no where near as prevalent in Vintage.

And because if something targets any of the golems, it'll also hit lodestones. Bad deal:frown:

[(nameless one)]

so i've been playing a welder forgemaster build vs many decks and have come to discover a glaring weakness in the deck... forgemaster!

to everyone playing the deck. if you have been toolboxing with forgemaster and not winning much, that's why. I'm starting to see the strength in colorless builds so I dropped my forgemasters to complete my set of steel hellkites, and dropped sensei's tops and other 1-of's for more control elements that many control decks use. Also dropped the mana curve down so Accel is less crucial to playing bigger threats.

my list now looks like this (any feedback no matter how harsh is welcome as long as there is a constructive elements to it):


4 Goblin Welder
.....

4 Chalice of the Void
.....

im still figuring out what i need in my sideboard but I feel the deck is very solid now compared to the forgemaster builds now that stifle is around.

It's acceptable to have both Key and Chalice but those and Welder? Usually, I want to resolve Welder 'late game'. With Chalice, it won't seem to work.

[kwelts]

It's acceptable to have both Key and Chalice but those and Welder? Usually, I want to resolve Welder 'late game'. With Chalice, it won't seem to work.

well how i play it, i dont mind not having welder if i can get a chalice at one, but if i want welder early i can usually get down a lightning greaves with it turn 1. I guess it all comes down to your play style. In fact sometimes i drop it early so it can get countered so my other more important pieces can stick.

[Fropper]

I'm testing a new build with 4 Batterskull MD atm and cuttet the sundering completely, aswell as the 2 emperions. Metamorph is sided in against Reanimator ofc but also against sneakshow and any NO builds, depending on your build you can even use it against dredge, just don't copy anything with him and let him die instantly to remove bridges.
This is the list I am testing atm

L. (22)
4x Port
4x Tomb
4x City of T.
4x Waste
3x Ruins
3x Dust B.

C. (16)
4 Wurmcoil
4 Hellkite
4 Lodestone G.
4 Batterskull

S. (7)
4 Chalice
2 Karn
1 All is Dust

R. (15)
4 Worker
4 G. Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Key

______

SB (15)
4 Trinisphere
3 Thorn of Am.
4 Cursed Totem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 All is Dust

[tsabo_tavoc]

so i've been playing a welder forgemaster build vs many decks and have come to discover a glaring weakness in the deck... forgemaster!

I don't get how Forgemaster is bad. Sure, drawing non-castable singletons sucks, that is why I limit it to 1 Blightsteel and 1 Myr Battlesphere (7 mana can be difficult).

[kwelts]

I don't get how Forgemaster is bad. Sure, drawing non-castable singletons sucks, that is why I limit it to 1 Blightsteel and 1 Myr Battlesphere (7 mana can be difficult).

the current meta is dominated by delver thresh which runs stifle. The forgemaster usually ends up just killing your side of the board.

I ran a list exactly like yours and every time i dropped a forgemaster, deep down inside i wished that it was actually the thing i was going to search for as i had that turn the mana to hard cast it.

[kwelts]

fropper, how has batterskull worked? Im too thinking of including them.

[BOOYA]

the current meta is dominated by delver thresh which runs stifle. The forgemaster usually ends up just killing your side of the board.

I ran a list exactly like yours and every time i dropped a forgemaster, deep down inside i wished that it was actually the thing i was going to search for as i had that turn the mana to hard cast it.

I got 5th with a build close to the original decklist in the first post of this thread.
Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22597-Los-Angeles-CA-Sunday-December-11-2011-Knight-Ware-Inc.-Tundras-FOW-s-...-20&p=607226&viewfull=1#post607226)
kwelts and fropper: you guys seem to be derailing the basic functions of this deck. Batterskulls are unnecessary as wurmcoil's get the job done and are great when they die, unlike having to pay 8 mana to get batterskull functional again. Welder is important here too; you can't maindeck chalices for 1 when playing with keys, and you can't ignore welder. He just wins games. This deck crushes U/R Delver because of welder and wurmcoil. And you honestly can't bash forgemaster. That card is the reason this deck exists.
You can change the deck around to fit your meta, but if you remove welders and forgemasters, you're not running the same deck this thread is advocating. You only need to remove welder when you board in chalices, and even then sometimes I keep one welder. If it's unanswered, you win. Let them remove it and let your fat robots do the dirty work.

[Koby]

With the new rules on optional triggers, Spine of Ish Sah can now remain in your graveyard after being Welded. I think this is significant enough to warrant an inclusion; possibly even to be abused in a Welder reanimator style deck too.

[(nameless one)]

@ BOOYA:

The problem with Forgemaster is that Stifle exists. The best way to protect the deck from Stifle is Chalice of the Void @1. The problem with that is Forgemaster builds need Welders to abuse it and that never works with CotV always being at 1. Voltaic Keys can get away with it because it's not a crucial piece but it can jump start the deck (partnered with Grim Monolith). While Keys are dead post Chalice at 1, it can live with it.

You can argue the same with Welders but you know what, you lose the main utility behind Welders once you have that Chalice at 1.

Voltaic Keys are never a 'late game' piece while the opposite can be argued with Welder. And you usually want Chalice at 1 as soon as possible.


@ruckus:

In Welder builds, that's awesome. Definitely abusable.

[mordraid]

I've been testing MUD recently and i've builded several versions including or not kuldotha forgemaster. He can be superman sometimes but more than often, he's like a win more strategy. For forgemaster to be truly effective you almost need to have lightning greaves into play, in order to fetch for colossus. Other than that, i always search for something else i could have cast with my mana instead of the forgemaster.

I've decided to cut the forgemaster and look elsewhere. I'm currently testing a more controllish welder build with the new card spoiled from dark ascension (faithless loothing). So far, so good. Testing shows that is it very resilient to control decks and counterspells.

[Koby]

In the control build, do you still run Greaves to protect Welder?

I think that Welder-shenanigans might become a new deck with all the rules changes and the addition of Faithless Looting. I'm going to hash out a new list and post a new thread, but since there are many similar lines of play between that deck and Welder MUD, I wanted to stop by here first to iron out some ideas.

[mordraid]

In the control build, do you still run Greaves to protect Welder?

I think that Welder-shenanigans might become a new deck with all the rules changes and the addition of Faithless Looting. I'm going to hash out a new list and post a new thread, but since there are many similar lines of play between that deck and Welder MUD, I wanted to stop by here first to iron out some ideas.

just go in the developemental decks section. I've already came up with a list and started a new thread a few days ago.

[allek]

I'm skipping Goblin Welder (http://www.blacklotusmtg.com/expansions/urza-block/urzas-legacy/goblin-welder-2/), he's more of a sideboard card against decks with many counters. Also, there is the obvious dis-synergy with Chalice of the Void (http://www.blacklotusmtg.com/expansions/mirrodin-block/mirrodin/chalice-of-the-void/) which might be the single best reason to play this deck.

[tsabo_tavoc]

3-0-1 a local tournament.

Forge and Weld

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
1 Gemstone Cavern
1 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
4 Spellskite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion

1. Bant Aggro 1-1
2. Doomsday 2-0
3. Mono Black Control 2-0
4. Hive Mind 2-0

[(nameless one)]

How was Welder and Chalice together? Did you ever have that awkward moment?

And how was Lotus Petal vs Mox Diamond?

[kwelts]

How was Welder and Chalice together? Did you ever have that awkward moment?

And how was Lotus Petal vs Mox Diamond?

my thoughts exactly.

[kwelts]

has anyone thought of having Torpor Orb in the sideboard versus blade control?

Handles much of their deck:

Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Spellstutter Sprite
Squadron Hawk
Stoneforge Mystic

seems like having 1-2 in the sideboard is a good idea (1 in SB for kuldotha builds. 2 for other ones)

P.S.- would it also not cause a germ token to spawn on Batterskull?

[mordraid]

P.S.- would it also not cause a germ token to spawn on Batterskull?

It doesn't stop the token to spawn because the trigger comes from the batterskull, wich isn't a creature.

[tsabo_tavoc]

How was Welder and Chalice together? Did you ever have that awkward moment?

And how was Lotus Petal vs Mox Diamond?

Chalice @ 1 in play and Welder in hand is not a rare case, but more often than not, you are going to win the game on the back of Chalice. Chalice and Welder are both cheap bombs in the deck that drain disruptions from the opponent. I would play 8 cheap bombs than 4, would not you?

Mox Diamond just screams inconsistency to me. In lists with 20 lands or less, Mox Diamond rarely sticks on the battlefield. In lists with more lands, there are fewer Artifacts, which also hurts consistency. Mox Diamond is very bad in multiples, Lotus Petal is not. Last but not least, the deck has Grim Monolith and Metalworker so that you usually do not need Mox mana more than once or twice.

[kwelts]

Chalice @ 1 in play and Welder in hand is not a rare case, but more often than not, you are going to win the game on the back of Chalice. Chalice and Welder are both cheap bombs in the deck that drain disruptions from the opponent. I would play 8 cheap bombs than 4, would not you?

Mox Diamond just screams inconsistency to me. In lists with 20 lands or less, Mox Diamond rarely sticks on the battlefield. In lists with more lands, there are fewer Artifacts, which also hurts consistency. Mox Diamond is very bad in multiples, Lotus Petal is not. Last but not least, the deck has Grim Monolith and Metalworker so that you usually do not need Mox mana more than once or twice.

18 land list here, and my mox diamonds (i run 3 of em) always stick. mox opals dont always get metalcraft quick enough (turn 1), but the diamonds are golden.

[tsabo_tavoc]

18 land list here, and my mox diamonds (i run 3 of em) always stick. mox opals dont always get metalcraft quick enough (turn 1), but the diamonds are golden.

I was never comparing Mox Diamond with Mox Opal, but with Lotus Petal. Suppose your opening has 1 Ancient Tomb, 1 Wasteland and 1 Mox, you get 3 mana turn 1, and 3 mana turn 2. You get the same amounts of mana if the Mox was a Petal. Mox wins by providing extra acceleration on turn 2 if you draw more lands; Petal wins if the Wasteland is another Solland, or the opening is a one-lander (still keepable if a Grim Monolith is among the grip). The odds are rather similar. However, considering multiples, Mox is worse by miles.


has anyone thought of having Torpor Orb in the sideboard versus blade control?

How would you sideboard against Stone Blade? Torpor Orb is not a bad card against them, but I would never Forgemaster it, there are more bomby stuffs than a 2-mana Artifact.

[kwelts]

How would you sideboard against Stone Blade? Torpor Orb is not a bad card against them, but I would never Forgemaster it, there are more bomby stuffs than a 2-mana Artifact.

I dont run a forgemaster build so i dont know how it would side in for that. was merely an idea. In my list I'd probably swap out some Volatic keys for it since i maindeck chalice as well.

[kwelts]

does anyone know whats the best hate for maverick builds?

[(nameless one)]

does anyone know whats the best hate for maverick builds?

I heard Cursed Totem is the way to go.

[kwelts]

I heard Cursed Totem is the way to go.

what abilities do we care about? all our stuff is colourless.

[(nameless one)]

what abilities do we care about? all our stuff is colourless.

I'm usually worried with Qasali Pridemages, cheap Batterskulls (via Stoneforge Mystic) and whatever utility land Knight of the Reliquary can pull. It can also slow them down by rendering Noble Heirarch and Dryad Arbor useless.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I heard Cursed Totem is the way to go.

Totem also shuts down your Welder, Worker and Forgemaster. Being aggressive is good enough against Mavericks.

[(nameless one)]

Totem also shuts down your Welder, Worker and Forgemaster. Being aggressive is good enough against Mavericks.

I know. But I would rather be bashing faces with Wurmcoil Engine by turn 3-4 while the Maverick has been slowed than dealing with the mentioned creatures above.

[kingofethanol]

Hi all,
I've been on the MTG Salvation MUD thread for a long time, and I decided to check out the Source.
I was reading through the older posts, and I have a few questions.
- Is anyone having trouble with Stifle? What about Aven Mindcensor?
- What colors are people playing lately?
- Has anyone tested Tezzeret the Seeker as a one of in the side?
- Is Phyrexian Revoker a must as a four-of inclusion in the sideboard? I'm only running two right now.

Thanks!

[kwelts]

Hi all,
I've been on the MTG Salvation MUD thread for a long time, and I decided to check out the Source.
I was reading through the older posts, and I have a few questions.
- Is anyone having trouble with Stifle? What about Aven Mindcensor?
- What colors are people playing lately?
- Has anyone tested Tezzeret the Seeker as a one of in the side?
- Is Phyrexian Revoker a must as a four-of inclusion in the sideboard? I'm only running two right now.
Thanks!

- I was with stifle. so i dropped forgemaster for more steel hellkites and dont regret a thing. once you do that it solves aven mindcensor too.
- my MUD deck is colorless.
- tezz doesnt help vs any specific matchup so he doesnt really go in the side. plus with the size of attackers we have, he would probably be too slow.
- I use 3 in my maindeck and 1 in the sideboard. He is pretty useful.
-

[kingofethanol]

Thanks kwelts. I'll leave the Steel Hellkite/Forgemaster switch up to the meta I think.
Not running Forgemasters open up a lot more options though. MDing Revoker seems good, and Cursed Totem can come in from the side without drawback.
But the Forgemaster Toolbox solves a lot of problems as well.
Is there a better deck between the two?

Also, how is our High Tide match up? Someone the other day told me that it was in HT's favor. My (somewhat) limited experience tells me otherwise. Sure, a Hurkyl's Recall wins them the game, but is that fast enough?

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone been tinkering with this deck with all of Dark Ascension spoiled?

Does Faithless Looting help the deck or should the game plan stick around with Chalice of the Void?

[kwelts]

Has anyone been tinkering with this deck with all of Dark Ascension spoiled?

Does Faithless Looting help the deck or should the game plan stick around with Chalice of the Void?

i think faithless looter would be more for the goblin welder reanimator builds like they have in the new deck section.

I'd stick with Chalice, but again its all up to testing once the new set gets released. I'll give it a test and see if it works or not.

[(nameless one)]

I've been testing this list. So far, I like it though it still probably needs more matchup testing.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Tangle Wire
2 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key

4 Faithless Looting

[festeringGAB]

I've been testing this list. So far, I like it though it still probably needs more matchup testing.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Tangle Wire
2 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key

4 Faithless Looting

hello :)
I think that,Goblin Welder without Forgemaster is not a good idea :/
I play a build like this for a few time(without faithless looting),but goblin welder is unnecessary..is "only" a protection(for death guy),and this is not what we need :(
another unsure is that you have too many 1x creatures(the really usefull creatures) but you cant "tinker" this with forgemaster..
I like Faithless Looting in welder MUD..but I think that this is not the way..
I will try something in the next day..and tell you some test results :)

I recommend you to do the same thing ;D

[(nameless one)]

hello :)
I think that,Goblin Welder without Forgemaster is not a good idea :/
I play a build like this for a few time(without faithless looting),but goblin welder is unnecessary..is "only" a protection(for death guy),and this is not what we need :(
another unsure is that you have too many 1x creatures(the really usefull creatures) but you cant "tinker" this with forgemaster..
I like Faithless Looting in welder MUD..but I think that this is not the way..
I will try something in the next day..and tell you some test results :)

I recommend you to do the same thing ;D

Actually I forgot to put 2 Forgemaster. Though with my further testing, I would remove one of the Faithless Looting with a third Forgemaster.

[kwelts]

Actually I forgot to put 2 Forgemaster. Though with my further testing, I would remove one of the Faithless Looting with a third Forgemaster.

The problem with looting welder decks i find is that the deck runs no blue so the lack of counters to disrupt answers to our combo makes the combo itself more fragile than reanimator for instance.

[(nameless one)]

I used to run Chalice on the main as a means of 'distuption' but it doesn't really fare well with both Welder and Looting.

To compensate with this, I have been running Tangle Wire. While it doesn't permanently stop Swords to Plowshares, it does it's job in locking your opponents out of the game if you know how to use it with Welder.

That paired with Lodestone Golem, you means to disrupt your opponent's disruption holds. Plus you have Welder itself to recycle your graveyard and Greaves to protect Welders or any pieces that needs protection.

I am actually enjoying the card selection provided by Faithless Looting.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I played the deck (lists very close to http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19932-Deck-Meandeck-MUD&p=611837&viewfull=1#post611837) in two tournaments in Iserlohn last weekends (6-1, 2nd/71) and the weekends before last (4-2, 11th/62).

Painted Stone CounterTop 2-1
Painted Stone Welder 2-1
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Delver Burn 1-2
Dredge 2-0
Nic Fit GBW 1-2

WBG Mangara 2-1
Painted Stone Welder 2-1
Bant Aggro 2-0
Doomsday Storm 2-1
Canadian Thresh 1-2
Delver Burn 2-1
Delver Burn 2-0

The losts against Delver Burn and Canadian Thresh were due to misplays in Game 3. However, Canadian Thresh is still an unfavourable matchup, with Wasteland, the aggressive gameplan and plenty of answers, are there any techs against them? Midrange control is also a struggle, and I only won the WBG round in the second tournament on the back of the added sideboard Steel Hellkite. I could see the Hellkite justify 1 more sideboard slot.

[Water_Wizard]

The losts against Delver Burn and Canadian Thresh were due to misplays in Game 3. However, Canadian Thresh is still an unfavourable matchup, with Wasteland, the aggressive gameplan and plenty of answers, are there any techs against them? Midrange control is also a struggle, and I only won the WBG round in the second tournament on the back of the added sideboard Steel Hellkite. I could see the Hellkite justify 1 more sideboard slot.

I have the same problem (losing to RUG/RU Delver). They have just enough disruption combined with a quick enough clock to kill me a turn or two before I would stabilize.
Regarding sideboard hate, I think Ratchet Bomb is our best bet. I know you only have 1 slot, but perhaps you could open it up for more (Ratchet Bomb is also good against a lot of other decks, so it may be worth a shot).
Other sideboard ideas include:
Chalice on 1 (shuts down 1/2 their deck)
3Sphere (slows them down/locks them out with a greedy manabase)
Sundering Titan (especially good against RUG, as you can usually wipe their lands off board - 3:1 are good :) )
Silent Arbiter - good against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, etc - slows their attack while buying you time.
Crucible of Worlds recursion - particularly good against RUG (Canadian) since they don't run any basics, but it can be a little slow to set up.

My basic plan is to land a Wurmcoil or Hellkite, because there really isn't much they can do to stop them

[Kich867]

Ever since I saw this card, I have been wanting to find a home for it, and browsing through decks I think some variant of MUD wold be the place for it. I've been testing it with a "janky" list of MUD (mostly a lack of lands) to great success.

Portcullis

In particular, a very strong line of play is something like:

Sol Land > Lotus Petal > Metalworker
Tap Metalworker, produce 8-10 mana > Wurmcoil / Hellkite > Portcullis

At this point, any creature they play will be exiled upon resolution and unless they have a way to get rid of Portcullis (and even if they do, the few turns it takes to get that answer has resulted in a Wurmcoil who's gotten two swings in or a Hellkite who can board-wipe uncontested).

or

Same thing > Lodestone + Phyrexian Metamorph on Lodestone > Portcullis

At that point they'd need artifact removal in order to play a creature to block, otherwise they're on a 2 turn clock. This wasn't terribly uncommon for my list.

It's probably not the most amazing addition, but it was giving people a lot of trouble all night. Food for thought. It may be a bit too reliant on Metalworker plays, but it was very fun and felt effective enough of a drop, it may be in danger of cool things as well.

[(nameless one)]

I believe the only thing you need to 'control' the early game is Tangle Wire.

I'm working on a Welder-list that's been awesome outside of Canadian and CounterBurn. There are still that two slots that I'm trying to figure out but everything else is running fine and dandy.

[mordraid]

I believe the only thing you need to 'control' the early game is Tangle Wire.

I'm working on a Welder-list that's been awesome outside of Canadian and CounterBurn. There are still that two slots that I'm trying to figure out but everything else is running fine and dandy.

Your list looks like what ?

[(nameless one)]

Your list looks like what ?

Faithless MUD


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Tangle Wire
2 Mox Opal

3 Faithless Looting
2 Open Slots (right now it's Sensei's Divining Top, though I'm still testing between Ratchet Bomb, Phyrexian Revoker, Spellskite and Voltaic Key)

So far, SDT has been good for me. While the deck still lacks shuffle effects, Faithless Looting has helped with selection. The least helpful was Voltaic Key since its really only good with Grim Monolith.

As for Tangle Wire, it acts as a Time Walk. Worst case scenario, both of you would just refill your hands while the whole board is locked out.

I am running Lotus Petal instead of Mox Diamond because not only its a Welder enabler, you also don't need that extra land in your hand to give you that red mana. Besides, you only need it onces in the early game.

PS, I'm still working on my sideboard.

[kwelts]

here's my current version of the deck list:

Maindeck:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Scarecrone
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:

1
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere


my question is what should my last sideboard slot go to? I have basic answers to everything (as far as i can see), so what do i do about the final slot?

i was thinking of running 1 kozilek versus painter stone to prevent a milling win. he is the cheapest to hardcast of the big 3, and the card draw seems more useful than the destroy target permanent.

[Hanni]

The problem with Tangle Wire is that the opponent can still Swords or Bolt your Welder. I think Trinisphere would be overall alot better, since you should still have no problems casting your own Welder's, and it can singlehandedly shut down a majority of the format right now. Seems 10x better than Tangle Wire, if you ask me.

[(nameless one)]

The problem with Tangle Wire is that the opponent can still Swords or Bolt your Welder. I think Trinisphere would be overall alot better, since you should still have no problems casting your own Welder's, and it can singlehandedly shut down a majority of the format right now. Seems 10x better than Tangle Wire, if you ask me.

Honestly, Tangle Wire has been working wonders for me where Trinisphere would have been okay.

Sure they can still remove Welder, but the point of Tangle Wire is not just to slow te opponent but also to get your robots through. I have had games where I have a Tangle Wire force to tap my opponent's board and let my Lodestone Golem go through where he could have chumped for a couple of turns.

I think Tangle Wire is still underrated though there are certain matchups where Trinisphere would shine and Tangle Wire. All in all, I quite happy with on how Tangle Wire plays its role.

The main issue I'm deal right now is the last two slots. I am currently running two Sensei's Divining Top on that. I am thinking of running three instead (removing one Lightning Greaves).

Another thing, I have change my land base though it still runs 18 lands. Here's my current land base:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

I have removed Rishadan Port to make way for Ghost Quarter. Ghost Quarter acts as a utility land removal (Tower of Magistrate and Maze of Ith) and a Fetchland if you're in desperate need of a red mana source.

My current sideboard looks like this though it is still subject to change:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt

I was contemplating on Grafdigger's Cage but it doesn't play so well with both Welder and Forgemaster.

[bruizar]

Honestly, Tangle Wire has been working wonders for me where Trinisphere would have been okay.

Sure they can still remove Welder, but the point of Tangle Wire is not just to slow te opponent but also to get your robots through. I have had games where I have a Tangle Wire force to tap my opponent's board and let my Lodestone Golem go through where he could have chumped for a couple of turns.

I think Tangle Wire is still underrated though there are certain matchups where Trinisphere would shine and Tangle Wire. All in all, I quite happy with on how Tangle Wire plays its role.

The main issue I'm deal right now is the last two slots. I am currently running two Sensei's Divining Top on that. I am thinking of running three instead (removing one Lightning Greaves).

Another thing, I have change my land base though it still runs 18 lands. Here's my current land base:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

I have removed Rishadan Port to make way for Ghost Quarter. Ghost Quarter acts as a utility land removal (Tower of Magistrate and Maze of Ith) and a Fetchland if you're in desperate need of a red mana source.

My current sideboard looks like this though it is still subject to change:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt

I was contemplating on Grafdigger's Cage but it doesn't play so well with both Welder and Forgemaster.

I have played Tangle Wire for a while and have liked it much more than Trinisphere myself. I use Trinisphere as a sideboard card against combo and burn only, since it doesn't really stop anything. Tangle Wire on the other hand, can often be 3 time walks.

Also, getting wastelanded under your own trinisphere can really give away the game. That said, its a meta call. If you're afraid of burn and snapcasters, trinisphere seems like the more powerful choice. That said, if you're up against tempo, you are probably going to run into spell pierce, fow and daze all the time so by the time either of those land, delver already nearly killed you.

[Hanni]

Trinisphere not only protects your creatures from Swords to Plowshares in the early game, but it also resolves your bombs through free countermagic like Force of Will. Looking at the DTB and recent tournament results, the banning of Mental Misstep has caused to format to shift back to primarily 1cc spells. Trinisphere is very well positioned right now.

[mordraid]

tangle wire if often just what it needs to lock down an oponent completly. It is pure advantage and with welder or land disruption it's back breaking. I've tested many builds, and the ones with tangle wire always seems to do better against a vast majority of decks.

Tempo decks and fast deks like burn often run on low land count and critters. Tangle wire will almost always tapped them out while you can easily recover with one less permanent to tap.

[Hanni]

Tangle Wire shutting down Burn is questionable. Tangle Wire doesn't stop instants.

Anyway, I also wanted to mention that I have found Crystal Vein to be an overall more consistent land than City of Traitors without Crucible of Worlds. It still has the ability to give explosive starts, but doesn't gimp you when you don't.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with Tangle Wire vs Burn and Tempo but against everything else, it does the job.

The problem I did with Trinisphere is that it can never come down fast enough. You dont need a turn 1 or 2 Tangle Wire to make it effective. I actually run Thorn of Amethyst in that spot on the side as it can come down on turn 1 (along with Chalice of the Void).

As for Crystal Vein vs. City of Traitors, this needs some testing.

[mordraid]

in a non-welder build the crystal veins take place of the great furnaces. I do think however that either crystal vein and city of traitors greatly benefits from crucibles of worlds.

[kwelts]

in a non-welder build the crystal veins take place of the great furnaces. I do think however that either crystal vein and city of traitors greatly benefits from crucibles of worlds.

i think for non-welder builds you should be using darksteel citadels. they are immune to wastelands, and can be revealed with worker for 2 mana.

[mordraid]

i think for non-welder builds you should be using darksteel citadels. they are immune to wastelands, and can be revealed with worker for 2 mana.

I'm using both since i don't have to put any mountains in a non-welder build.

[bruizar]

I agree with Tangle Wire vs Burn and Tempo but against everything else, it does the job.

The problem I did with Trinisphere is that it can never come down fast enough. You dont need a turn 1 or 2 Tangle Wire to make it effective. I actually run Thorn of Amethyst in that spot on the side as it can come down on turn 1 (along with Chalice of the Void).

As for Crystal Vein vs. City of Traitors, this needs some testing.

Tangle Wire is great for getting back in the game, recovering your board position and just generally trying to make more plays than your opponent.

Trinisphere helps against burn, but its not going to be enough. If you dont capitalize on the window of opportunity you created, they will just start hammering you down with price of progress. Trinisphere limits the number of burn-spells per turn, which may or may not give you just enough time to land a Wurmcoil Engine. WC-Engine is what you need against burn.

[kingofethanol]

In regards to UR burn, I found that Chalice sets you up to be in a very good position. It shuts down Bolts, Chain Lightnings, and Delvers. Trinisphere does slow them down, but it still allows them to resolve spells that can really hurt your board position.

The Burn match up is coin/draw dependent. Sometimes you resolve a quick Wurmcoil, others they had a Smash to answer your threat. If it seems like Burn is tough, maybe you can consider Emperion.

Red decks aside, I've been debating on whether Thorn or Trinisphere is more appropriate against combo decks. What are your guys' opinions on this?

[Hanni]

You're assuming the Burn player can hit 3 lands before you blow them out, and a turn 1 Trini still slows them down so rediculously much that even Price of Progress won't always get them there in time. Trinisphere is a blowout against combo, too. And then there are the main uses, like preventing land light decks from Plow'ng your Welder or using free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will. I really see no reason to not run it in a deck like MUD that easily supports it, to be honest.

[Gheizen64]

You're assuming the Burn player can hit 3 lands before you blow them out, and a turn 1 Trini still slows them down so rediculously much that even Price of Progress won't always get them there in time. Trinisphere is a blowout against combo, too. And then there are the main uses, like preventing land light decks from Plow'ng your Welder or using free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will. I really see no reason to not run it in a deck like MUD that easily supports it, to be honest.

"Easily" supports it is a big overstatement. MUD in legacy has the shittiest manabase, one waste and u're ruined. Especially when u run moxens and the like.

[Hanni]

By easily supports, I mean you run dual mana lands and Mox Diamond. By supports, I mean you run 24-ish lands. If 18 land RUG Tempo wants to set themselves back a land drop to Wasteland you, that sounds fair to me.

[(nameless one)]

In regards to UR burn, I found that Chalice sets you up to be in a very good position. It shuts down Bolts, Chain Lightnings, and Delvers. Trinisphere does slow them down, but it still allows them to resolve spells that can really hurt your board position.

The Burn match up is coin/draw dependent. Sometimes you resolve a quick Wurmcoil, others they had a Smash to answer your threat. If it seems like Burn is tough, maybe you can consider Emperion.

Red decks aside, I've been debating on whether Thorn or Trinisphere is more appropriate against combo decks. What are your guys' opinions on this?

My current sideboard uses both Chalice and Thorn against combo matchups (with Phyrexian Revoker) and Burn.

I usually side out the Welder package (with Faithless Looting) against these matchups because:

- against combo, you want to have your softlock pieces first before being aggressive as you will not be able to race them.

- against Burn, you will never get Welder's value as it will always die. At least if you've laid down one of the mentioned sideboard pieces above, Metalworker can be safe fr a turn or two.


"Easily" supports it is a big overstatement. MUD in legacy has the shittiest manabase, one waste and u're ruined. Especially when u run moxens and the like.

I agree on this, this is why my gameplan is to abuse cheat-effects such as Welder+Looting, Metalworkers and Forgemasters.

Against combo, you want to make sure you can land a softlock without the heavy mulligans, hence why I run Chalice and Thorn instead of Trinisphere.


On a different note (well related with cheating robots into the field), I was actually contemplating on running Gamble. Late game, it can't as an Entomb and early game, if you have really bad draws, it can act as a Tutor (given you have an ample amount of cards in your hand). I'll do some testing when I get free time and I'll let you guys know.

[kingofethanol]

You want to prevent the Recall/Rebuild against a combo match up. It is given that we will be dropping lock pieces, but one resolved R/R means that they will be trying to go off on the following turn. While Trinisphere makes one of them cost more, it still allows them to be casted for 2U.
Thorn doesn't have as much immediate impact as 3Sphere, but it delays the R/R. Moreover, unlike 3Sphere, it interacts with Lodestone Golem.
By laying a Chalice on 1, Thorns and Golems, we are denying card selection, as well as the card(s) they need to get out of your soft lock. Our Wastes help against ANT, while Sundering Titan gets rid of a land and puts them on a faster clock.

I played Gamble for a while, and it was really hit or miss. It felt good when I t1 Gambled into a Welder, discarded a Titan, but I did get those blow outs too. I think it's an amazing late game tool. Whether it ends up in the yard or your hand, you probably will have the capability to get your tutor target out.

[(nameless one)]

All I can say is I wasn't so happy with Gamble. It was too random early game. It's effective late game but you need to have an active Welder.

It doesn't really help the deck's inconsistencies.

One of the games I play on Cockatrice was against an TES pilot. Game one, I thought I had it in the bag when I had the Tangle Wire works with Welder but I was unable to find a clock. The turn I had a clock played, (used Welder to cheat it into play), removing my Tangle Wire, he/she actually comboed out. Game two, I sided out the Welder package for the Stompy Package (Chalice and Thorns in), along with Phyrexian Revokers and Tormod's Crypts (for Past in Flames). That was an auto-win. Game 3 however, he just comboed out before I even had a chance to play (2x Lion's Eye Diamond + Infernal Tutor + support = Win). Overall, I still need to playtest even more against any Storm-based combo matchups.

Anyways, one of the things that caught my eye on that matchup was actually the use of Burning Wish wishboard on the Welder builds.

With that wishboard, you can grab Faithless Looting, All is Dust and Shattering Spree to name a few. Danger of cool things or feasible?

[tsabo_tavoc]

All I can say is I wasn't so happy with Gamble. It was too random early game. It's effective late game but you need to have an active Welder.

It doesn't really help the deck's inconsistencies.

One of the games I play on Cockatrice was against an TES pilot. Game one, I thought I had it in the bag when I had the Tangle Wire works with Welder but I was unable to find a clock. The turn I had a clock played, (used Welder to cheat it into play), removing my Tangle Wire, he/she actually comboed out. Game two, I sided out the Welder package for the Stompy Package (Chalice and Thorns in), along with Phyrexian Revokers and Tormod's Crypts (for Past in Flames). That was an auto-win. Game 3 however, he just comboed out before I even had a chance to play (2x Lion's Eye Diamond + Infernal Tutor + support = Win). Overall, I still need to playtest even more against any Storm-based combo matchups.

Anyways, one of the things that caught my eye on that matchup was actually the use of Burning Wish wishboard on the Welder builds.

With that wishboard, you can grab Faithless Looting, All is Dust and Shattering Spree to name a few. Danger of cool things or feasible?

Neither Burning Wish nor its targets are artifacts, whose number the deck seeks to maximize. Also, we have a Forgemaster toolbox which handles almost everything.

[bruizar]

You're assuming the Burn player can hit 3 lands before you blow them out, and a turn 1 Trini still slows them down so rediculously much that even Price of Progress won't always get them there in time. Trinisphere is a blowout against combo, too. And then there are the main uses, like preventing land light decks from Plow'ng your Welder or using free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will. I really see no reason to not run it in a deck like MUD that easily supports it, to be honest.

if they had free countermagic, they would have used it on your trinisphere so it wouldn't have resolved in the first place. As king of Ethanol comments, Trinisphere doesn't really solve the combo matchup at all because they can still just cast a Chain of Vapor, Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild, and then go off in the following turn. The problem is that Trinisphere doesn't stack. Unlike Nether Void, which works alongside Thorns, Golems and Sphere of Resistance, the opportunity cost of Trinisphere is usually just too big. Legacy isn't like Vintage. We don't rely on moxen in this format, and the games have less splashy plays. In Vintage, Trinisphere is cast after resolving all your own moxen and Mishra's Workshop, and negates your opponent's ability to play moxen for 3 turns. That's like not being able to play a land for 3 turns. This is not the case in legacy.

If you want to lock out your opponent, I would personally rely on sphere effects and add side in 1 or 2 Nether Voids to basically kill the opponent, since its unaffected by Rebuild/Recall and stacks with spheres. It would require Chain of Vapor AND rebuild in the same turn to get out of this lock. Using nether void in legacy is possible, because we don't have Mishra's Workshop which doesn't work on enchantments.



Neither Burning Wish nor its targets are artifacts, whose number the deck seeks to maximize. Also, we have a Forgemaster toolbox which handles almost everything.

Forgemaster is a 5 mana summoning sickness permanent that is weak to creature removal and artifact removal. When you activate it, a single stifle can make you lose the game. That's a lot of cons for a card that's supposed to give access to your sideboard hate (read: your toolbox).

Burning Wish isn't really a good card (at least, for this type of deck), but Forgemaster doesn't make the functionality of Burning Wish obsolete.

[(nameless one)]

Neither Burning Wish nor its targets are artifacts, whose number the deck seeks to maximize. Also, we have a Forgemaster toolbox which handles almost everything.

Yes, the the idea behind Burning Wish is to find something useful for a certain scenario. It's not like it's gonna be run because you need to find that combo piece (ala TES) or a hate piece (ala Aggro-Loam) but rather in between. Besides, you don't want to run a full set of them in a deck with only 8-12 red mana sources. You don't want to rely on it but rather, have it as support. It can still find Sorceries that are useful to the deck but dead 50% of the time.



Forgemaster is a 5 mana summoning sickness permanent that is weak to creature removal and artifact removal. When you activate it, a single stifle can make you lose the game. That's a lot of cons for a card that's supposed to give access to your sideboard hate (read: your toolbox).

Burning Wish isn't really a good card (at least, for this type of deck), but Forgemaster doesn't make the functionality of Burning Wish obsolete.

Actually, that's the same reason why I reduced the number of Forgemasters to 3. I don't want to rely on. I usually just activate it when the opponent is tapped out (such as under an active Tangle Wire).

The reason why I want to test Burning Wish is to help the deck with consistency and to have certain answers Forgemaster can't provide without relegating more than 3 slots.

This also minimizes the amount of non-land, non-artifact cards that is put in the deck.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Forgemaster is a 5 mana summoning sickness permanent that is weak to creature removal and artifact removal. When you activate it, a single stifle can make you lose the game. That's a lot of cons for a card that's supposed to give access to your sideboard hate (read: your toolbox).

Burning Wish isn't really a good card (at least, for this type of deck), but Forgemaster doesn't make the functionality of Burning Wish obsolete.

I was just pointing out we already have a maindeck toolbox, not really comparing those cards. Do you mean Forgemaster is suddenly bad in MUD? Only blue tempo decks play Stifle, and they will board out Stifle for Spell Pierce/Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip. That matchup is about sticking Chalice.

My next testing project is a black splash for Heartless Summoning. Besides the synergy with artifact creatures, there ought to be some combos in Legacy, any ideas?

[Hanni]

if they had free countermagic, they would have used it on your trinisphere so it wouldn't have resolved in the first place. As king of Ethanol comments, Trinisphere doesn't really solve the combo matchup at all because they can still just cast a Chain of Vapor, Hurkyll's Recall or Rebuild, and then go off in the following turn. The problem is that Trinisphere doesn't stack. Unlike Nether Void, which works alongside Thorns, Golems and Sphere of Resistance, the opportunity cost of Trinisphere is usually just too big. Legacy isn't like Vintage. We don't rely on moxen in this format, and the games have less splashy plays. In Vintage, Trinisphere is cast after resolving all your own moxen and Mishra's Workshop, and negates your opponent's ability to play moxen for 3 turns. That's like not being able to play a land for 3 turns. This is not the case in legacy.

If you want to lock out your opponent, I would personally rely on sphere effects and add side in 1 or 2 Nether Voids to basically kill the opponent, since its unaffected by Rebuild/Recall and stacks with spheres. It would require Chain of Vapor AND rebuild in the same turn to get out of this lock. Using nether void in legacy is possible, because we don't have Mishra's Workshop which doesn't work on enchantments.


If the opponent is using Force of Will to counter your Trinisphere is irrelevant, because if you didn't have it, they would have just Force'd something else. Getting a spell Force'd (in this case Trini) isn't an argument against running it. Fact is, if the opponent doesn't have the Force, then the rest of their Forces are pretty much shut off.

Against combo, the opponent having Rebuild is fine and all, but they still have to dig for it. When their Brainstorm's and Ponder's (and maybe Top's) are costing them 3 mana, chances are that they won't be able to dig into it fast enough. And they cannot use free Lotus Petal's or Chrome Mox's (in your analogy to Moxes in Vintage) to foot the cost of casting 3cc Brainstorm's. The fact that Trinisphere's don't stack, or they fact that they can get bounced, is irrelevant to the fact that they are still amazing against combo.

[joemauer]

Fact is, if the opponent doesn't have the Force, then the rest of their Forces are pretty much shut off.



I think bruizar was trying to point is that Trinisphere does not stop a deck with free countermagic because the free countermagic trumps Trinisphere.

If you are trying to bait an opponent's FoW's then Trinisphere does do that. However, a lot of decks with FoW's also run wasteland + Swords to Plowshares which are problem cards[for MUD] that will usually follow the countered Trinisphere.

[kwelts]

I think bruizar was trying to point is that Trinisphere does not stop a deck with free countermagic because the free countermagic trumps Trinisphere.

If you are trying to bait an opponent's FoW's then Trinisphere does do that. However, a lot of decks with FoW's also run wasteland + Swords to Plowshares which are problem cards[for MUD] that will usually follow the countered Trinisphere.

it wont stop the initial FoW if they have one for the trinisphere, but if it resolves then you can throw all their countermagic out the window. Thats why i like it over thorns. yes it doesnt stack, but when it sticks then it does enough of a job to not rely of drawing more to further ruin the opponent.

[kwelts]

MUD is in top 4 on SCG open on this stream, and is using Trinispheres sideboard. http://www.twitch.tv/scglive

EDIT: MUD wins. a lot of weird choices in this deck. will be excited to see the full 75.

[Shawon]

Two card choices in the Memphis MUD list I was really impressed by:

1) Batterskull - Was BSkull mentioned in this thread before? Either way, it's an effective card for life gain that isn't virtual card disadvantage.
2) Hall of the Bandit Lord - WOW. I"m really impressed with this one. One of the complaints I had about Lightning Greaves is that your opponent could still STP/Bolt my Worker in response to equipping. When I last played with MUD, I was thinking of using Thousand-Year Elixir as a removal-proof option, but Hall of the Bandit Lord is 1000x better since it's a land and therefore uncounterable. I still think Lightning Greaves is good, but the deck needs additional methods of getting a quick activation, and Elixir costs too much to be effective.

[(nameless one)]

MUD is in top 4 on SCG open on this stream, and is using Trinispheres sideboard. http://www.twitch.tv/scglive

I saw that. Trinisphere was dreamcrushing Top8 all day.


Two card choices I was really impressed by:

1) Batterskull - Was BSkull mentioned in this thread before?
2) Hall of the Bandit Lord - WOW. I"m really impressed with this one. One of the complaints I had about Lightning Greaves is that your opponent could still STP/Bolt your
Worker in response. When I last played with MUD, I was thinking of using Thousand-Year Elixir as a removal-proof option, but Hall of the Bandit Lord is 1000x better since it's a land and therefore uncounterable. I still think Lightning Greaves is good, but the deck needs additional methods of getting a quick activation, and Elixir costs too much to be effective.


Being a land also helps with the land count. I know it has been mentioned before though I can't remember if it was from here or MTG Salvation.

[Hanni]

I saw that. Trinisphere was dreamcrushing Top8 all day.


I guess that about sums up my previous points. :wink:

[(nameless one)]

I guess that about sums up my previous points. :wink:

Fair enough. Though it boggles me that he didn't have Chalice of the Void postboard. Chalice at 1 would have roflstomp on Elves and Burn.

I'm actually tempted to try out a singleton Trinisphere in the main (taking out a Tangle Wire, which has been a house for me)

[Hanni]

Well, to be fair, I never said Tangle Wire was bad. I was simply saying that Trinisphere is absolute house in the format right now. Mental Misstep is gone, and the format has shifted back to a heavy reliance on 1cc spells. This tournament result is the proof to back up my claim.

[bruizar]

Creature [21]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery [2]
2 Gamble
Artifact [17]
1 Batterskull
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Lotus Petal
1 Mindslaver
2 Mox Opal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key
Enchantment [2]
2 Blood Moon
Land [18]
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Mountain


Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Chaos Warp
2 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
2 Spellskite
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
1 Witchbane Orb

[bruizar]

Well, to be fair, I never said Tangle Wire was bad. I was simply saying that Trinisphere is absolute house in the format right now. Mental Misstep is gone, and the format has shifted back to a heavy reliance on 1cc spells. This tournament result is the proof to back up my claim.

The deck lost to burn in the finals. I havent seen yhe match but the fact that it lost with a sideboard of trinisphere is actually proof that trinisphere gives you time, but does not shut off decks by itself. It buys time and apparently not enough to beat burn in the finals.

[manugl84]

The deck lost to burn in the finals. I havent seen yhe match but the fact that it lost with a sideboard of trinisphere is actually proof that trinisphere gives you time, but does not shut off decks by itself. It buys time and apparently not enough to beat burn in the finals.

Don´t know where you have read that, but MUD actually won.:wink:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_anthony_phoneuf_vs_zac_.html

[Shax]

Zac Hicks, the guy who won SCG Memphis is one of my hometown friends. He has been playing MUD-Kuldotha Forgemaster Combo for a really, really long time so he knows the outs to his deck. He also got very lucky throughout the day. Most of the times he would facecrush all his opponents simply because they mull'd to wack 4-5 card hands.

Never the less, he won so congrats to my buddy Zac!!! At the event during the swiss I told him to put me on the SCG Coverage when he won. :cool:

[lordofthepit]

The deck lost to burn in the finals. I havent seen yhe match but the fact that it lost with a sideboard of trinisphere is actually proof that trinisphere gives you time, but does not shut off decks by itself. It buys time and apparently not enough to beat burn in the finals.

Not sure there was an accurate statement in the whole post besides "I haven't seen the match".

Trinisphere won him the Elves matchup in the semifinals and the Top 8 against RUG Delver. That being said, Chalice of the Void probably would have been better in each of his Top 8 matchups, if he had run it (he didn't).

[(nameless one)]

Zac Hicks, the guy who won SCG Memphis is one of my hometown friends. He has been playing MUD-Kuldotha Forgemaster Combo for a really, really long time so he knows the outs to his deck. He also got very lucky throughout the day. Most of the times he would facecrush all his opponents simply because they mull'd to wack 4-5 card hands.

Never the less, he won so congrats to my buddy Zac!!! At the event during the swiss I told him to put me on the SCG Coverage when he won. :cool:

So, would he be posting here anytime soon?

[dsck]

Zac Hicks, the guy who won SCG Memphis is one of my hometown friends. He has been playing MUD-Kuldotha Forgemaster Combo for a really, really long time so he knows the outs to his deck. He also got very lucky throughout the day. Most of the times he would facecrush all his opponents simply because they mull'd to wack 4-5 card hands.

Never the less, he won so congrats to my buddy Zac!!! At the event during the swiss I told him to put me on the SCG Coverage when he won. :cool:

Surprising that he doesnt know how Trinisphere + Golem work together though.

[kwelts]

The deck lost to burn in the finals. I havent seen yhe match but the fact that it lost with a sideboard of trinisphere is actually proof that trinisphere gives you time, but does not shut off decks by itself. It buys time and apparently not enough to beat burn in the finals.

i think you just proved the oppositions point with that post. trinisphere pretty much raped the whole top 8 (for example in the semi finals, if not for trinisphere MUD would have lost to elves.

MUD wins, and throughout the tournament the casters are saying how much of a bomb trinisphere is in the current meta.

[bruizar]

Missread the results. Was in a hurry. My bad, indeed your point was proven.

[kingtk3]

Hi to all,
I'm in a hurry but I wanted to say that I've been testing Trinisphere for a quite and I assure you it's a bomb right now. For reference I'll leave my build (don't have time to remember the side, but there's some All is dust and cursed totem): any comments are appreciated!!!


4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 crystal vein
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
1 dust bowl
2 mishra's factory

4 grim monolith
4 thran dynamo
3 metalworker

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian revoker
4 lodestone golem


4 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 karn liberated

2 phyrexian metamorph
3 crucible of worlds (good for wastelock but also helps in using aggresively city of traitors and crystal vein)

[gamer4life]

Zac Hicks, the guy who won SCG Memphis is one of my hometown friends. He has been playing MUD-Kuldotha Forgemaster Combo for a really, really long time so he knows the outs to his deck. He also got very lucky throughout the day. Most of the times he would facecrush all his opponents simply because they mull'd to wack 4-5 card hands.

Never the less, he won so congrats to my buddy Zac!!! At the event during the swiss I told him to put me on the SCG Coverage when he won. :cool:


If you could ask him to do a report on here that would be awesome.

[Hix360]

Hey guys. I'm Zac Hicks, the pilot of the SCG Memphis deck. I'm here to answer a few questions.

1. Chalice of the Void: I was in a rush before the tournament and did not have my deck together. I had 2 empty slots and had no clue what was supposed to be there. i had a sleepless night, so my memory wasn't the best, so i threw in Chaos Warp and Powder keg. Chalice would have been there.

2. @dsck, Trinisphere and lodestone Golem do not work together. Cost additions happen before cost-setting abilities. I am also a judge for StarCity, and thats why I know how these interactions work. My elves opponent was confused when I had the Golem + Sphere in play. He thought his Visionary cost 4. It, in fact, only cost 3.

3. Hall of the Bandit Lord is there just for Metalworker and Forgemaster. The turn 3 hasted Blightsteel was completely out of the blue. I did not even realize I could ever do that.

4. As for a report, there will be an article up on legitmtg.com in a few days.

[kwelts]

Hey guys. I'm Zac Hicks, the pilot of the SCG Memphis deck. I'm here to answer a few questions.

1. Chalice of the Void: I was in a rush before the tournament and did not have my deck together. I had 2 empty slots and had no clue what was supposed to be there. i had a sleepless night, so my memory wasn't the best, so i threw in Chaos Warp and Powder keg. Chalice would have been there.

2. @dsck, Trinisphere and lodestone Golem do not work together. Cost additions happen before cost-setting abilities. I am also a judge for StarCity, and thats why I know how these interactions work. My elves opponent was confused when I had the Golem + Sphere in play. He thought his Visionary cost 4. It, in fact, only cost 3.

3. Hall of the Bandit Lord is there just for Metalworker and Forgemaster. The turn 3 hasted Blightsteel was completely out of the blue. I did not even realize I could ever do that.

4. As for a report, there will be an article up on legitmtg.com in a few days.

grats on the win! I dont play a forgemaster build cuz my meta is heavy on stifle, but it always nice to see when a MUD deck trumps the others.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hey guys. I'm Zac Hicks, the pilot of the SCG Memphis deck. I'm here to answer a few questions.

1. Chalice of the Void: I was in a rush before the tournament and did not have my deck together. I had 2 empty slots and had no clue what was supposed to be there. i had a sleepless night, so my memory wasn't the best, so i threw in Chaos Warp and Powder keg. Chalice would have been there.

2. @dsck, Trinisphere and lodestone Golem do not work together. Cost additions happen before cost-setting abilities. I am also a judge for StarCity, and thats why I know how these interactions work. My elves opponent was confused when I had the Golem + Sphere in play. He thought his Visionary cost 4. It, in fact, only cost 3.

3. Hall of the Bandit Lord is there just for Metalworker and Forgemaster. The turn 3 hasted Blightsteel was completely out of the blue. I did not even realize I could ever do that.

4. As for a report, there will be an article up on legitmtg.com in a few days.

I lost to you in a MTGSally tournament :/

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys. I'm Zac Hicks, the pilot of the SCG Memphis deck. I'm here to answer a few questions.

1. Chalice of the Void: I was in a rush before the tournament and did not have my deck together. I had 2 empty slots and had no clue what was supposed to be there. i had a sleepless night, so my memory wasn't the best, so i threw in Chaos Warp and Powder keg. Chalice would have been there.

2. @dsck, Trinisphere and lodestone Golem do not work together. Cost additions happen before cost-setting abilities. I am also a judge for StarCity, and thats why I know how these interactions work. My elves opponent was confused when I had the Golem + Sphere in play. He thought his Visionary cost 4. It, in fact, only cost 3.

3. Hall of the Bandit Lord is there just for Metalworker and Forgemaster. The turn 3 hasted Blightsteel was completely out of the blue. I did not even realize I could ever do that.

4. As for a report, there will be an article up on legitmtg.com in a few days.

I have to admit, dreamcrushing Burn with a turn 2 hasted Blightsteel Colossus was epic.

I have a couple questions:

1) Why no Wasteland? Was Blood Moon enough?

2) How was Gamble for you? In my testing, early game it's hit/miss. It seems to be only good late game with an active Welder. I remember Ari Lax asked you about it but I had speaker issue so I didn't hear the whole conversation.

3) How was Hall of the Bandit Lord overall? Was the life loss and come into play tapped drawback good enough to support one?

4) Staff of Domination, good enough to religate one slot? In my past testing, I rarely get both Metalworker and Staff online together with 3 artifacts in hand.

5) Why no Faithless Looting?

Also, I'd like to comment on game 3 vs. the Canadian Thresh player. When you had an active Welder, Forgemaster and Trinisphere, when he Stifled you, why didn't you just forged in Sundering Titan? That would have nuked his mana base, created Wurm tokens and if you welded Wurmcoil in for Sundering Titan, he would have had no lands (and no mana producing lands since it looks like all his fetchable lands was on the field). That would have save you two/three turns. Though you did win with style (Achievement Unlocked: Double Kill)

Nevertheless, congratulations on the win. Way to put Metalworker and Grim Monolith back on the watch list :P

[Malacoda]

3. Hall of the Bandit Lord is there just for Metalworker and Forgemaster. The turn 3 hasted Blightsteel was completely out of the blue. I did not even realize I could ever do that.


Uh, you can do that on T2 without Hall.

T1: Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves
T2: Artifact Land, Metalworker, equip Greaves, make at least 6 mana, Forgemaster, equip Forgemaster, sac Forgemaster, Metalworker, Artifact Land, Blighsteel, equip, swing.

I think Hall is pretty sketchy.

[dsck]

2. @dsck, Trinisphere and lodestone Golem do not work together. Cost additions happen before cost-setting abilities. I am also a judge for StarCity, and thats why I know how these interactions work. My elves opponent was confused when I had the Golem + Sphere in play. He thought his Visionary cost 4. It, in fact, only cost 3.



Ooh, sorry. I think the commentators made it seem like you didnt know when infact it was your opponent.

Grats on your victory!

[Gheizen64]

Uh, you can do that on T2 without Hall.

T1: Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves
T2: Artifact Land, Metalworker, equip Greaves, make at least 6 mana, Forgemaster, equip Forgemaster, sac Forgemaster, Metalworker, Artifact Land, Blighsteel, equip, swing.

I think Hall is pretty sketchy.

Hasted Workers are pretty nuts though. It's not like you can do a lot of things T1 anyway. T1 Hall, T2 sol land + worker its much better than T1 sol land + greaves, T2 land + worker. First because it's one card less (and one more artifact in your hand for metalworker), and second because if that sol land is a traitor you're on 1 land and a FoW or a removal on Worker in response to equip will make u lose the game. Hasted creature also mean they can't remove it before u activate its ability.

[hyperchord24]

Not to mention Lightning Greaves can be countered and Hall cannot.

[Mr. Ages]

/
Not to mention Lightning Greaves can be countered and Hall cannot.

Yes, but greaves works on forged and welded creatures. With Hall coming in tapped, you really want it early. As a one of, that's no reliable enough for me.

Any thoughts about going 100% after a hasty BSC? Dropping the utility creatures and upping the greaves count.

[dillonkbase]

my thoughts are that both reanimator and SnT are better at producing a fatty in a less complex and more reliable way....

the utility creatures are why you play this deck... blightsteel still gets exiled with swords

[hyperchord24]

As a one of, you don't really count on it. As that match demonstrated, it's another oops, I win kind of card.

[Mr. Ages]

Interesting, I had been slowly moving toward a more focused list. Looking for either a turn one lock followed by a clock, or a hasty Wurmcoil or BSC on T2 or T3.

I'm going to take a second look at the toolbox. I do like having different options like the Mindslaver and Sundering Titan.

How about Faithless Looting? Currently I'm running 3. Other than the rare case where you can drop Welder on turn one and then loot on turn two into a fatty, I don't want to see it in the early game. It feels like a time walk/mulligan when it is my only turn one action and I'm just using it to improve my hand. Maybe I should just be sitting on it more, or throwing the hand back.

If things are going well, I feel like I should be dumping most of my hand pretty early, so Faithless Looting is often just an expensive Bazaar of Bahgdad in the mid to late game. Dumping 4 cards in the yard in seach of a large bot. I'm not sure it is worth it yet.

Thanks for the responses, we'll see if Jupiter can handle it this weekend.

[Gheizen64]

Interesting, I had been slowly moving toward a more focused list. Looking for either a turn one lock followed by a clock, or a hasty Wurmcoil or BSC on T2 or T3.

I'm going to take a second look at the toolbox. I do like having different options like the Mindslaver and Sundering Titan.

How about Faithless Looting? Currently I'm running 3. Other than the rare case where you can drop Welder on turn one and then loot on turn two into a fatty, I don't want to see it in the early game. It feels like a time walk/mulligan when it is my only turn one action and I'm just using it to improve my hand. Maybe I should just be sitting on it more, or throwing the hand back.

If things are going well, I feel like I should be dumping most of my hand pretty early, so Faithless Looting is often just an expensive Bazaar of Bahgdad in the mid to late game. Dumping 4 cards in the yard in seach of a large bot. I'm not sure it is worth it yet.

Thanks for the responses, we'll see if Jupiter can handle it this weekend.

I agree with your opinion on Faithless, you rarely want to see more than 1 in a game. 3 or more probably 2 is the correct number i feel.
I'd try them in the gamble spot on the latest SGC list.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with your opinion on Faithless, you rarely want to see more than 1 in a game. 3 or more probably 2 is the correct number i feel.
I'd try them in the gamble spot on the latest SGC list.

My list runs 3. That seems to be the right number. The awesome thing I found about Faithless Looting is that it can enable tricks with Welder early game. Before the printing of FLooting, Welder was just there as protection against non-exiling removal, permission and discard on your artifacts. Now, with FLooting, Welder can actually play the roll of Metalworker which is a means to cheat artifacts into play.

The only thing that doesn't play nice with Welder/FLooting trick is Blightsteel Colossus. I myself have cut it from my list though I won't deny it's ability to win games out of nowhere.

[Nihil Credo]

New thread with an actual primer:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29