[Deck] Meandeck MUD

[blarknob]

Here is the deck I played to a second place finish in Indy this weekend. I know there is already a mud stompy thread but it sucks pretty hard so I figured I would start a new thread for this deck.

Tournament report is available here http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/slinging-mud-2nd-place-at-scg-indy/.

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Duplicant
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere

A couple notes:

I didn't play Blightsteel because I feel it is a win more card and I want to realistically hard cast all my threats without metalworker.

If you plan on playing this deck you have to practice your mulligans and recognize when you have to ship an akward hand.

[death]

Congrats on the finish. Again, I'm gonna rub Sculpting Steel in.

[blarknob]

I considered it but didn't test it seriously, let us know how it works for you.

[edgarps22]

I love the deck design! I am actually running a similar deck, but more control based with a more MUD feel with:

3x Winter Orb
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

When building this deck, did you consider a blue splash for Thirst for Knowledge? I know Sensei's Divining Top works very well at card selection, but I have found the synergy of Thirst and Welder can be rather explosive. Also I am curious if Razormane Masticore made it into your testing at any point. For my list he is a complete threat that can shut down almost any aggro deck I play against.

I am happy to see though the combined use of Goblin Welder and Metalworker, something I have been using with great success. It is easy to deal with one early, but dealing with both can be very difficult when everything you cast can be a "must counter" type of spell.

[blarknob]

I don't think the stax approach works very well in legacy.

[damionblackgear]

What made you decline on Staff of Domination?

[blarknob]

I felt it was also win more. It is only good if you have metalworker.

[tomjulioo]

yes but with 4 Kuldotha Forgemaster, you could consider running 1 staff

[The Big R]

Assuming you have tested All is dust, for what reasons, if any, are you not playing it? What matchups do you think you might need it in? Also, it seems that you have a lot of combo hate. How much does the hate help in sideboarded games?

[blarknob]

All is dust not being an artifact actually mattered in my testing, it proved to be less than impressive.

The Combo hate in the board is important. You are fairly weak to them game one but chalice/revoker/trinisphere really change that.

[Amon Amarth]

How has your Zoo matchup been? Preboard, it was bad. I only played like 10-ish games but it felt pretty hard since they can punish you for playing Tombs and they can pressure your life total quickly. It only felt like I could win if I comboed off with an early Wurmcoil + Greaves. Obviously, post board it gets better as Chalice @ 1 is good and 3Spehere too. However, judging from the opens it seems like Zoo is on the decline, so it may be a moot point.

[blarknob]

Chalice turns the match in your favor against zoo. It blanks half of their deck.

[SMR0079]

Any thoughts on answering Null Rod?

Did you test Mindslaver? I am envisoning a u/r version remnisicent of the old Vintage Shop Slaver lists that ran TfK. Thoughts?

[RexFTW]

Why dont you guys test the list..... from the questions im sure you havent lol.

I would recommend the inventor try 1 maindeck Blightsteel, as it makes the combo matchup winnable in the first game. Attacking on the second turn with him is quite nice.

[Mark Sun]

Hey Mike, it's Mark.

Congrats on the finish, bad beats for having to mull a lot in the finals, but I feel like this deck is very strong in this metagame. I'm looking forward to reading your report when it goes up!

[conboy31]

Why dont you guys test the list..... from the questions im sure you havent lol.

I would recommend the inventor try 1 maindeck Blightsteel, as it makes the combo matchup winnable in the first game. Attacking on the second turn with him is quite nice.

Does it really? Take the odds of you playing vs combo, then having the t1 metal worker into the nuts, and then combo not having thoughtseize to disrupt you, chant in response, or kill you. The nominal improvement he would add against combo is probably not worth being the biggest brick in the deck when you are facing active disruption.


As for mindslaver, what matchup is it going to shore up? Also, diluting the manabase to red and blue seems exceptionally greedy.

People want to add thirst as a draw engine, but top + key and top + welder are both draw engines in among themselves in addition to giving card selection, being an artifact and costing 1 mana.

[Amon Amarth]

Why dont you guys test the list..... from the questions im sure you havent lol.

I would recommend the inventor try 1 maindeck Blightsteel, as it makes the combo matchup winnable in the first game. Attacking on the second turn with him is quite nice.

I'd want to test him but the only slot he could occupy realistically would be replacing another robot. I'm too in love with Myr Death Star to get rid of the second and everything else is pretty firm. Slots are tight and all the other robots have better utility than just beating down. I wouldn't add BSC to beat Combo because he doesn't disrupt them. He still falls to STP and PTE like all your other robots but he does kill much faster. So much so that he's probably worth testing at some point.

[Fatal]

I tested this deck with my team.

Conclusions after testing:

1. Zoo Pre-side is very hard, removal and pridemage are our nightmare.
2. Aggro Bant is also unfavorable. Counters, StP and pridemages, also Jitte is an Issue.
3. Goblins with their, removal and mana disrupt is also though, speically that Welder is a goblin..
4. Lightning Greaves are great it speed you up and protect, but there is very important to equip most important creature.
5. Un-dazed Welder is our counter vs StP to any other targets and Pridemages.
6. We have an issue with fast clock decks.
7. Drawing engine Top + Key is enough - drawing 2 cards for 2 mana is what we need.
8. Stifle is an nightmare.
9. Mox Diamonds aren't great with 16 lands
10. Wasteland can be gamebreaking on you if your rampa (welder/monolith fail).


We tested this deck vs:
- Aggro Bant
- Zoo
- Loamed Green & Taxes
- Merfolks
- Dark Horizons
- Junk & Taxes
- Goblins

[Amon Amarth]

@Fatal: Test more. You won't typically draw multiple Diamonds and the rare hand where you do have it is probably a mull anyways, ie you will only be able to produce two mana off the bat leaving you at the whim of topdecks.

Countermagic really isn't a big deal. Force of Will is the only one that hits everything. Spell Snare hits only Monolith/Greaves and Spell Pierce is ok but is often dead due to the silly amount of mana in this deck. Counterspell only sees play in as a 1 or maybe 2 of. Counterbalance. That's the joke, get it? Almost all of your CB-able spells come down before it and the rest well...they cost a bajillion. And Goblin Welder. Countermagic is only good against you if they have a clock. Otherwise you will easily be able to play around it.

Only Dreadstill plays Stifle. Otherwise irrelevant. Pretty easy to play around.

The most popular decks that play Wasteland are Goblins and Merfolk. Fortunately these selfsame decks are the ones that are the most vulnerable to being blown out by an early Metalworker. Thanks to Crucible and Top Wasteland hasn't been too insane against me.

[Fatal]

"Only Dreadstill plays Stifle. Otherwise irrelevant. Pretty easy to play around."

Forgot about Horizons ? This deck has a lot of mana but only if your extra mana source is in play. You don't control play without ramping first so tempo decks can just slow u down enough to beat your before u can put any bomb on table.

I worried about this construction has his big time only if opponent don't now how to play vs you.

[Amon Amarth]

Oh you got me! However, no Stifle based decks are really big presences in the top 8's of the SCG Opens. New Horizons only has 1 top16 placement in the last 3 Opens. What are you worried about being Stifled, Foregemaster? Neither of the aforementioned decks play many creatures so you can still beat down with it worst case scenario. They play very little removal and their countermagic is easy to play around.

In case you haven't noticed a common trend, let me enlighten you. Most players won't figure out how to play against a new deck in any reasonable time frame. For example, originally most people thought the Goblins vs Zoo matchup was nigh unwinnable for Goblins. Fast forward to this year and many people who play the deck assert that its pretty close to 50/50. Why is that? Because it took players awhile to figure out how to play against Zoo and also due to the slow adoption of cards like MWM and Stingscourger. I'm not trying to say that all Legacy players are bad or some BS like that only that the format is so large that unless you are really dedicated you aren't going to be on the cutting edge of the metagame.

[Fatal]

Your right, new decks need to be tested by both sides, after that is deck is still good when opponent playing well we have success. But if deck loses, there is a problem in construction, not the pilots. I think deck need more mana source to faster and stable ramp to avoid counters/StP your mana ramp. Also i found that Null Rod is total kill vs it, we have little affinity rebirth (thx to Champions) and Null Rod become single shot in some build using E. Tutor.

Zoo vs Goblins depends on build, everyone know it.

[Kayrkhan]

Hi!,

I love this deck, good job & congratulations blarknob; 2nd in 267 tournament without a tier deck is amazing!!!

What do you think about Spine of Ish Sah?. I think that it's a good sinergy with Kuldotha/Welder.

[blarknob]

My tournament report and deck breakdown is now available.

http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/slinging-mud-2nd-place-at-scg-indy/

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Hi!,

I love this deck, good job & congratulations blarknob; 2nd in 267 tournament without a tier deck is amazing!!!

What do you think about Spine of Ish Sah?. I think that it's a good sinergy with Kuldotha/Welder.

Maybe in SB if the deck gets popular and ppl start SBing Null Rod.
Also, I really really really really wish there was something better than Mox Diamond. But there isn't unless you wanna play something like Thran Dynamo

[NukeMoose]

Maybe in SB if the deck gets popular and ppl start SBing Null Rod.
Also, I really really really really wish there was something better than Mox Diamond. But there isn't unless you wanna play something like Thran Dynamo

Mox Diamond is leagues above Thran Dynamo. You need 2 Stompy lands to cast TD unless you want to wait until T3 to play it (meaning you are doing anything until your T4). Mox is a 0 artifact that turns on Mox Opal, lets you filter your stompy lands to get the best benefit for what you draw, combines with crucible for almost no drawback and makes colored mana.

[Amon Amarth]

I can't imagine how you would be able to consistently cast Welder without the extra Red sources.

[festeringGAB]

Hi,I really like this deck!

I play with:
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Platinum Emperion

-2 Sensei's Divining Top

do you think that sensei's is really necessary?

[kortero]

SDT is an excellent 'draw engine' in a deck that plays 4 Voltaic Keys. You also need enough cheap artifacts to reach metalcraft for Mox Opals.

[Darth Nihilus]

spine of ish sah is realy good in my opinion.

sure it looks terrible and i have to agree it is in 99% of the decks around but from testing MUD so far problem cards are stuff like
energy flux(doable with worker), null rod, peacekeeper and moat. dublicant only awnsers peacekeeper. i am aware that dublicant still got other uses but spine is a awnser to nearly everything besides hyruls recall.

hardcasting it shouldn´t be that hard even without an metalworker, when its job is done you can just welder it away and get it out again with forgemaster, i could even be considered as a mainboard card in my opinion. taking out the whole board of an oppononent turn by turn sould not be underdestimated.


just my 2 cents

[C.P.]

So I've been testing the deck(admittedly not a ton) and was unimpressed by the Crucibles.

I understand that they are awesome with wasteland. I did get random early locks here and there, too. But is that really worth the early game stability? I found that -2 Crucible +1 Darksteel Citadel +1 Top made the deck mulligan much less. If the disruption is needed, I think It should be SB'd in, not maindecked.

[death]

-2 Crucible +1 Darksteel Citadel +1 Top made the deck mulligan much less

Why Citadel instead of a basic Mountain which can actually cast a Welder?

[C.P.]

Why Citadel instead of a basic Mountain which can actually cast a Welder?

I never had trouble casting the Welder with 10 red sources. I'd be more concerned about Artifact count than red mana, as my main concern was that Opal without 2-mana lands tends to be a mull.

[Al-ucard]

I have to congrat you on this 2nd place in such a big event and with a different deck! I'm quite boried of CBtops, merfolks and zoo decks!

I started to test this deck since I saw it a few weeks ago. I have to say than in first matches I think it was a pile but actually I enjoyed a lot playing it.

Now the questions:

Don't you think that this deck without welder will do it well too? In my testings seems that welder likes to make the appareance only when I don't need him or I couldn't use him. I feel like without him will be more stable. This way we could quit Great Furnace and add Rishadan Ports, Darsksteel citadel or something...

Then in your first list you played with 3 Greaves and now you play 2. This is strange since in my testings I always want to have one in my opening 7.

Finally I have the same opinion about crucible than C.P. I like it because we could replay discarted lands with mox and recurr artifact sacced lands with welder but it seemed winmore for me.

Thoughts?

[C.P.]

I thought welders were great against anything with blue. They shine in games where disruptions are very common. I agree that 3rd Greaves would be nice, but I can't seem to find the room for it. Another card I'd want 3rd one in the board...

[GGoober]

I have to congrat you on this 2nd place in such a big event and with a different deck! I'm quite boried of CBtops, merfolks and zoo decks!

I started to test this deck since I saw it a few weeks ago. I have to say than in first matches I think it was a pile but actually I enjoyed a lot playing it.

Now the questions:

Don't you think that this deck without welder will do it well too? In my testings seems that welder likes to make the appareance only when I don't need him or I couldn't use him. I feel like without him will be more stable. This way we could quit Great Furnace and add Rishadan Ports, Darsksteel citadel or something...

Then in your first list you played with 3 Greaves and now you play 2. This is strange since in my testings I always want to have one in my opening 7.

Finally I have the same opinion about crucible than C.P. I like it because we could replay discarted lands with mox and recurr artifact sacced lands with welder but it seemed winmore for me.

Thoughts?

Welder is the last card you can cut in this deck. The deck's strategy is to be as explosive as it can (you want to mulligan aggressively and punish opponents with your broken starts). Welder not only synergizes with the entire deck (Monolith/Mox Diamonds/Forgemaster/Wurmcoil/Myr Battlesphere/Titans etc) but is a backup plan when the explosive plan is disrupted/fails, i.e. when all your bombs are dealt with, you can rip Welder and win all over again. The deck wants to keep pushing in that explosive approach and if Welder is cut, you won't have that backup plan when your bombs are dealt with.

@Crucible: You forgot wastelock, which is a very potent strategy. Your opponents have to deal with both the speed of the deck, the bombs and wastelock. It's hard to keep the pressure up with this deck.

@Blarknob: How would you combat Energy Flux and Kataki if Affinity/artifacts.dec ever get popular? I would like some advice on this because it not only pertains to this deck, but also to other decks that I'm interested in testing. My strategy so far is to play 4 Tangle Wires against decks with 4 Flux/Katakis. In your list, Tangle Wire seems busted with Welder as well. Your deck gets hindered by Null Rod much more than other mud variants, but you also have the potential to just bust out and win faster than Null Rod affects it so all's good, but I guess I would like input on how you would fight against Flux/Katakis (assuming they are played in metagames with Affinity/artifacts.dec).

[C.P.]

@ Crucible: As I mentioned before, I do admit that Watelock is a good strategy. However, I don't think it's worth more than saving some mulligans, as this deck does mull a lot. I think it should be SB'd, though.

@ Hate: I think you just give up on it. This deck is a glass cannon, and will remain that way until some new printing. I mean, the deck is still awesome, but if people really wants to beat it, they will.

[Anusien]

If people run enough hate to beat all the glass cannons (Dredge, Combo, MUD) they can't realistically board against things like Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and CB.

[Vesper Ghoul]

The deck is far more resilient to Kataki or Energy Flux than something like affinity (artifact lands vs Stompy lands). Attacking with wurms that are attached to Lightning Greaves seems like a still decent strategy. Welding back stuff that might be needed this could be where Spine of Ish Sah could become invaluable. Crucible (worth the mana to keep around) and Stompy lands could keep you in the game. Not to mention Metalworker could keep a big board around as well.

Null Rod might be harder to deal with than the other hate.

[unicoerner]

I just tested this deck on mws. I play sth like that in vintage, too.

Problems i also encountered:
Mox Diamond: With just 16 lands its really greedy. I try Barbarian Rings in their spot. They combo with Crucible, too.

Welder vs Chalice: You seem to board chalice in very often and welder out, so perhaps we can cut them. Imo welder gets only really usefull when we have already lost

[GGoober]

@ Crucible: As I mentioned before, I do admit that Watelock is a good strategy. However, I don't think it's worth more than saving some mulligans, as this deck does mull a lot. I think it should be SB'd, though.

@ Hate: I think you just give up on it. This deck is a glass cannon, and will remain that way until some new printing. I mean, the deck is still awesome, but if people really wants to beat it, they will.

Except it is rare that I would mull a hand with Crucible in this deck. Even without a wasteland in your hand, you know that you'll draw into one of the four wasteland and completely blow out opponents when they have to deal with everything else in the deck.

@Anusien: Good answer :P Flux might be too slow, but Kataki could be an issue that I think might be played in Zoo/Bant list if metagames become more welcoming for Affinity/Stompy to win games.

@Vesper: I think you're underestimating the power of Flux/Kataki. You can play around it but that's quite a TON of resource unless you have active welder with greaves (to get past summoning sickness etc). Sol lands do help but if your deck is very artifact-dense, it becomes hard to keep up (let's just say Affinity just doesn't have a good chance but Stompy has a shot, although still a bad one at fighting such hate). I think the comforting thing is what Anusien said: artifact hate like Flux/Kataki are a little too narrow to be widely played in sideboards without affecting a lot of other more important matchups

[KevinTrudeau]

While this deck suffers from the same glass ceiling Dredge has in that will never make it as a dominant deck due to the immense amount of possible sideboard hate, I think it's a deck that's here to stay in the metagame. I definitely think it needs some tuning though, like more land first and foremost. I'd cut the Crucibles and one Mox Diamond for three Mountains, and bump up Lightning Greaves and SDT to threes in place of a Battlesphere (I think you only need singletons of the non-Wurmcoil Engine robots) and a Forgemaster.

This deck makes me feel real dirty sometimes. Dropping a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine against blue with Goblin Welder out is dirt nasty, possbily my second favorite play in the entire format (first being Plagiarize in response to Brainstorm).

[menace13]

If people run enough hate to beat all the glass cannons (Dredge, Combo, MUD) they can't realistically board against things like Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and CB.

Absolutely right, Cards like Rod, Kataki(Moss is deranged and played them though) and Flux aren't widely if ever even played. The deck is good.

[Volrath]

Yeah, i have been having trouble with my diamonds in my testing too.
I think replacing them with 2 Barbarian rings and 1 mountain could be okay.

Finding basics when you guy gets pathed vs Zoo is tech.
Ring can be a wincon or a way to remove peacekeeper or pridemage when they can't pop it immidiately.

This makes Mox opal a little les good though.

[C.P.]

If you want more lands, I'm sure they should be Darksteel Citadels. I also don't think you should be cutting all three diamonds even if you cut any.

[Rico Suave]

Null Rod is pretty brutal, but a resolved Metalworker is still a good solution to cards like Energy Flux.

[GoldenCid]

I'm glad to see a deck like this on stablished.
I'm running a similar list but just monobrown and whith chalices avoiding all cmc 1. Also i included all is dust as mass removal.

For reference:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Chalice of the Void
2 All Is Dust
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Great Furnace
1 Banefire
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Jester's Cap
SB: 2 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker

Thing that i'd like to include: Sculpting steel, Silent arbiter.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

A cogent argument for a 1-of Blightsteel Colossus:

What makes playing against combo in legacy? Even if you are a blue deck there is still a terrifying feeling every time you know the opponent has Tendrils in their deck. Why? Because they can win out of nowhere. One turn where you don't have an answer and you can be dead. Its the same with BSC here. If for even one turn the opponent lets their guard down they can be dead. Not sort of dead after Titan 'geddons them. Actually dead. And that's what makes BSC worth playing. Because he lets you instantly seize on any opportunity your opponent gives. It turns Kuldotha from Tinker to Ad Nauseam. From a probably win to an actual win.

[ivanpei]

I'm very interested in this deck, however a question of MU analysis to you guys, whats the difference in MUs for the red splash welder + monolith+ key builds vs the mono brown chalice + revoker + trini + crucible builds? Both play Kuldotha for the combo finish and wormcoils. Without the monolith + key, the deck seems to slow down a fair bit but challice + trini helps slow down the opponents just the same. Which do you prefer and why? I'm very tempted to physically buy into this deck.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I'm very interested in this deck, however a question of MU analysis to you guys, whats the difference in MUs for the red splash welder + monolith+ key builds vs the mono brown chalice + revoker + trini + crucible builds? Both play Kuldotha for the combo finish and wormcoils. Without the monolith + key, the deck seems to slow down a fair bit but challice + trini helps slow down the opponents just the same. Which do you prefer and why? I'm very tempted to physically buy into this deck.

having tested mono-brown and with red for welder i have come to this:
both are good, its a matter of what g1 matchups you want to be favorable.
g1 the red version is essentially storm combo, if you cant interact you die. That said in my testing, the mono brown ramp with all is dust and such has a MUCH better g1 against aggro decks with disruption (bant, zoo etc).
both have a good merfolk and CB matchup. which is nice.
honestly, play both and just pick the one that matches your playstyle.

[ThomasDowd]

to sufficiently answer null rod, you kind of have to play bad removal spells to deal with it (crush, shatter), chalice on one probably kind of helps too in stopping e tutor from going and getting it, or them digging for it via brainstorm, those are the only things i can possibly think of.

also keep in mind that null rod shuts great furnace down, or you can just ignore it and beat face with wurmcoil engine by hitting all your sweet 2x lands.

if they have moat and/or humility and null rod, and you haven't gotten in with a forgemaster activation for hellkite, well, good luck....

decks sweet though. the board can probably be tweaked for metagames too, with you know all artifacts in existence, is pretty awesome.

the only thing that freaks me out is the low land count, but with the amount of acceleration it makes sense, also, the deck seems to favor VERY aggressive mulligans.

[conboy31]

A cogent argument for a 1-of Blightsteel Colossus:

What makes playing against combo in legacy? Even if you are a blue deck there is still a terrifying feeling every time you know the opponent has Tendrils in their deck. Why? Because they can win out of nowhere. One turn where you don't have an answer and you can be dead. Its the same with BSC here. If for even one turn the opponent lets their guard down they can be dead. Not sort of dead after Titan 'geddons them. Actually dead. And that's what makes BSC worth playing. Because he lets you instantly seize on any opportunity your opponent gives. It turns Kuldotha from Tinker to Ad Nauseam. From a probably win to an actual win.

It seems like you are vastly overrating the impact of playing or tutoring for bsc as well as ignoring how hard he is to cast. Unless you have haste with greaves or EOT the kuldotha, BSC is not going to 'combo' kill the opponent like tendrills. Also, he only kills if they do not have a creature with greater than 1 power on the table. In addition, he has no ETB or LTB triggers. He also is a nombo with welder.

[NukeMoose]

to sufficiently answer null rod, you kind of have to play bad removal spells to deal with it (crush, shatter), chalice on one probably kind of helps too in stopping e tutor from going and getting it, or them digging for it via brainstorm, those are the only things i can possibly think of.

also keep in mind that null rod shuts great furnace down, or you can just ignore it and beat face with wurmcoil engine by hitting all your sweet 2x lands.


Spine of Ish Sah and Smokestack are the only two cards I can come up with that answer Null Rod. Everything else taps or requires red mana which we are cut off from after NR resolves. I could potentially see SBing Seal of Cleansing/Primordium as a proactive answer to it if the metagame evolves to that point. The manabase would probably need tinkered with for that though.

[manugl84]

SDT is an excellent 'draw engine' in a deck that plays 4 Voltaic Keys

Sorry for my ignorance, but how can SDT and key be a "draw engine"? Could anyone answer that?

[Philipp2293]

Tap SDT to draw a card, in response untap it with Key and use the draw ability again, cause the "put on top of deck" clause is part of the resolution, this nets you 2 cards.

[manugl84]

Tap SDT to draw a card, in response untap it with Key and use the draw ability again, cause the "put on top of deck" clause is part of the resolution, this nets you 2 cards.

But that gives you a card and the SDT, right?

[Philipp2293]

I should have been more precise, yes, with the first resolution you draw a card and the top goes on top of the deck, with the second resolution you redraw your top. So the 2 cards I was talking about are 1 new card and the top.

[kortero]

Yes, one card and the top. But it's 1 colorless mana for one card which isn't exactly a shitty deal (assuming you have the key in play). If you have two Voltaic Keys, you can get 2 cards and the top for 2 colorless mana and so on. And as the deck plays 4 Voltaics, 2 Tops become a quite good card draw engine.

[manugl84]

I should have been more precise, yes, with the first resolution you draw a card and the top goes on top of the deck, with the second resolution you redraw your top. So the 2 cards I was talking about are 1 new card and the top.

Ok man, thanks for the explanation.

[Al-ucard]

So, with welder active you could exchange top with other artifact in grave? This way you don't have to play another time the top exposing it to a counterspell.

[Squirrel]

So, with welder active you could exchange top with other artifact in grave? This way you don't have to play another time the top exposing it to a counterspell.

Yes, i think it works ( and i like it)

[Volrath]

I played with Blightsteel, and it only won me games where i had greaves in play and my oppo 0 creatures.
Also, since we play voltaic key's, could Phyrexian Collosus be an option?.

It's practically an 8/8 unblockable and relative easy to cast with metalworker/monolith's.

Edit: i've won many games searching up collosus, equiping it with greaves and seal the deal.

[C.P.]

I don't get all these debates about 'tinker' targets. Isn't Sundering titan, Helikite, or Battlesphere enough for you? I found that to be enough. If not, I'd like to know why these things were not good enough to get the job done.

P.S. Phyrexian Colossus is so 1999, I love it. I still think it sucks in 2011.

[FieryBalrog]

I've been trying Thirst for Knowledge, not just as a draw source but also as a way to turn on Welder, after having many games where I'd want a discard outlet for Welder. Cut Crucibles and Wastelands for TfK and Seat of the Synod.

[k2thej]

I've been trying Thirst for Knowledge, not just as a draw source but also as a way to turn on Welder, after having many games where I'd want a discard outlet for Welder. Cut Crucibles and Wastelands for TfK and Seat of the Synod.

Why not thoughtcast? I tested it with this list and you can thoughtcast on turn one and still set up the usual turn 2 beef.

[edgarps22]

That is essentially what I have done,

-4 Wasteland
-4 Crucible

+4 Seat of the Synod
+4 Thirst for Knowledge

Another recommendation is at least 1 Razormane Masticore. He is absolutely powerful in your aggro matchups, which albeit are already good, but he also turns welder on, which makes control a bit better too. I am not sure about what other creature slot to lose, but probably just 1 of the Wurmcoil Engines, as both cards satisfy the same need, except in the case against combo, but there are added advantages to Razormane.

-1 Wurmcoil Engine
+1 Razormane Masticore

[blarknob]

In my initial testing I ran 2x original masticore for quite some time. It was really good at dealing with the aggro decks and provided a nice discard outlet for welder. When I added greaves and top I no longer had space for it.

I would not run razormane because it has negative synergy with welder.

[Koby]

For discard outlets, there's better cards in blue, including both Riddlesmith, Careful Study, and Intuition. With Crucible already being in the deck, that play can setup some inevitable plays by searching for Academy Ruins, and two pieces that you need.

[blarknob]

The more non-artifacts you add to the deck the worse metalworker gets. If you are going to build a colored deck I'd move away from metalworker into some other strategy.

[EddieO]

I built the deck last night and just goldfishing, its been stupid good and consistent, though you gotta be on the mulligans sorta like dredge.....

I do have concerns with the Sideboard though inabilty to deal with Null Rod and Pithing Needle.....I expect to see them in troves......Duplicant, Chalice, and Sphere all need to stay I would assume, so what to cut and what to add in the board to deal with them. I am thinking Shatterspree since its castable underchalice at 1 and is harder to counter.

Later EddieO

[blarknob]

People keep missing this but unless you alter the manabase red answers to nullrod do not work. This is because all your red sources are artifacts.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah, the only way you can get a red mana is to respond to null rod by tapping a red source, then instant speed artifact removal the null rod with ancient grudge or something. That's the only hope this deck has against null rod. This deck is very much like dredge in that if people prepare for it it is very unlikely to put up results because there are numerous very effective hate cards against it like hurkyl's recall, null rod, the revoker, recall, etc. etc.

[EddieO]

Yeah, I guess I did miss that...........so at this point, whats the answer to null rod? nothing? All I know is at my local shop where I am a minor dealer, I've had more people ask about Null Rods in the last week than I had in the previous 6 months combined.....and people with them immediately say the ones they have are NOT for trade....

Later EddieO

[blarknob]

There are answers to nullrod, they just can't be red.

[EddieO]

care to share with the world?

Later EddieO

[(nameless one)]

Can't Goblin Welder target the opponent's artifact as well? That can do some tricks too.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Can't Goblin Welder target the opponent's artifact as well? That can do some tricks too.

yes, but thats not a very good answer since they also have to have an artifact in the gy and how many non-combo deck put artifacts in the yard?

[EddieO]

Yes it can, but you would need to be a artifact in the graveyard as the previous poster said.....not very likely against decks playing null rod.....and it runs into the issue of unless welder is already out, you would not be able to cast it either....

Only thing I can think of is the new 7 casting cost destroy a perm artifact.........but 7 mana with no artifact mana available is definitely not going to be easy to cast, especially with all the wastelands floating around....

Later EddieO

[Salacious]

Culling Scales in the sideboard against Null Rod maybe?

[Rico Suave]

In my initial testing I ran 2x original masticore for quite some time. It was really good at dealing with the aggro decks and provided a nice discard outlet for welder. When I added greaves and top I no longer had space for it.

I would not run razormane because it has negative synergy with welder.

That last line makes no sense. You know the damage on Razormane is optional, right? So why does Razormane have negative synergy with Welder, but the original Masticore receives praise?

[blarknob]

Sorry I mistook Razormane for Moltentail.

I'd still recommend the original it is far easier to actually cast.

[edgarps22]

I will be doing some testing between Razormane Masticore and regular Masticore, but both seem to make welder just that much better. Also I have been using a blue splash with 4 Thirst for knowledge and 1 Intuition, but I have dropped the Wastelands and Crucible of Worlds for the sake of Seats of the Synod. From my light testing against Death and Taxes and Affinity, it still seems very solid. My main concern is combo/dredge, but then again that is what the SB is for.

On the note of Null Rod, that is a hard thing to answer, but perhaps Crush is the card we are looking for. It is in color, you can float mana in response to a Null Rod, but I also agree that if it resolves and we can't produce that mana, life is pretty terrible. The only solutions I can think of off the top of my head to that is maybe a single Mountain to fetch provided we get Path to Exiled, or run it in tandem with a Solemn Simulacrum. Not sure how solid that card really is, if we ran more basics he could be a house, but I would see that weakening our artifact base for Metalworker. So thoughts so far is Crush float mana and pray you have it?

[Koby]

Overload is slightly better than Crush, but both have a limitation that you need to float mana prior to Null Rod entering play. The only way to reliably answer Null Rod is to run basic Mountains.

[phonics]

pain kami and mox monkey look like the only on color ways to deal with null rod without colored mana, but they are more preventative than an answer, as you have to play them first and so they are vulnerable to any removal before they drop rod. neither does anything else, and mox monkey is too expensive. pain kami however could work off of a single stompy land through. other than that i can see welding spine in as a possible solution. you could just go for mutual suicide and drop a lattice down lol...

[menace13]

Plague Boiler >Null Rod

[Admiral_Arzar]

Plague Boiler >Null Rod

It also blows up all of your own permanents - that is, if the opponent doesn't just destroy it in the several turns needed to ramp up to it. I think basic mountains are the answer here, unless you want to try something janky like Simian Spirit Guide.

[Anusien]

I am pretty sure the answer to Null Rod is to ignore it or to put out a 6/6 before they cast it.

[SlopeeJ]

I just read the report, seems good... One thing that caught my eye though, why would they give you your opps deck list? Does this always happen in these tourney? Doesn't seem very fun to me

[Broham]

I just read the report, seems good... One thing that caught my eye though, why would they give you your opps deck list? Does this always happen in these tourney? Doesn't seem very fun to me

Well, everybody watches matches throughout the tourney anyways. Whether they are scouting or just spectating, some players may find themselves with more information than others about opposing decklists. This information provides an edge, an edge that is easily dealt with by handing out the decklists.

[GoldenCid]

Byw, what thoughts have you about ]Precursor Golem for this deck (monobrown)? Does it worth any?

[Broham]

Byw, what thoughts have you about ]Precursor Golem for this deck (monobrown)? Does it worth any?

I don't like it myself, Precursor Golem would set up your team to get roasted by a single Lightning Bolt or StP. (including Lodestone Golem)

[NukeMoose]

Culling Scales in the sideboard against Null Rod maybe?

That's not a bad idea. I've always like Culling Scales. My last post was about how Spine and Smokestack were the only answers I could come up with, but I think CS is a better fit for this deck.

[Master Shake]

Guys, guys, guys. I figured it out! No one plays Null Rod, so... we're good here, right?

[Broham]

That's not a bad idea. I've always like Culling Scales. My last post was about how Spine and Smokestack were the only answers I could come up with, but I think CS is a better fit for this deck.

That really does not play well with all the Moxes and Voltaic Keys. You're trying to fix a hypothetical problem that the deck does not have, which is dealing with ridiculously narrow hate cards.

Also, what Master Shake said. ^^

The only change I am toying with right now is Crystal Veins in place of the Wastelands. I just want to see how consistantly violent I can make Game 1. They synergize just as well with Crucible of Worlds, and I think the extra speed is worth cutting off the bit of control that the Wastelands can set up. Though to be fair, I really haven't seen too many Maze of Ith's. If that gets problematic I guess I'll switch back.

[C.P.]

I am pretty sure the answer to Null Rod is to ignore it or to put out a 6/6 before they cast it.

This. Can we stop discussing how to beat Null Rods? If people really want to beat this deck and boards in fuckton of cards, then they will beat it. Whatever.

So far I like cutting crucibles for a top and an artifact land, but it does take away some staying power out of the deck. I mull less, though. I also tried a basic land (because Path sucks) and hated it everytime I drew it.

As far matchups go, Merfolk was actually kinda sketch(mostly due to the sketchy nature of the deck) and Zoo was worse. CounterTop was surprisingly annoying. So I felt that we really don't have really good matchups. Maybe it's just me.

[NukeMoose]

That really does not play well with all the Moxes and Voltaic Keys. You're trying to fix a hypothetical problem that the deck does not have, which is dealing with ridiculously narrow hate cards.

Also, what Master Shake said. ^^

The only change I am toying with right now is Crystal Veins in place of the Wastelands. I just want to see how consistantly violent I can make Game 1. They synergize just as well with Crucible of Worlds, and I think the extra speed is worth cutting off the bit of control that the Wastelands can set up. Though to be fair, I really haven't seen too many Maze of Ith's. If that gets problematic I guess I'll switch back.

Mox's and Keys are useless during an active Null Rod, and it's not like I would cast CS on a field when my artifacts aren't broken. So the question is which is quicker: ramping smokestack, ramping to 7 mana or burning through 1-2 drops with CS, or maybe it's something else.

But you're right, this isn't a problem yet, so I'll drop it for now.

[LegacyDan]

Hey, been playing around with this deck since I say it earlier this week. I must say that I am impressed someone finaly found a good use for Metalworker and Grim Monolith.

as for NukeMoose's statement, I would say Smokestack is the best of those options. If someone is siding in Null Rod, chances are they can't handle an active Stax. You on the other hand, well, CoW/Myrderball/Wurmcoil/Welder all laugh at it.

[NukeMoose]

as for NukeMoose's statement, I would say Smokestack is the best of those options. If someone is siding in Null Rod, chances are they can't handle an active Stax. You on the other hand, well, CoW/Myrderball/Wurmcoil/Welder all laugh at it.

Thanks, that settles it for me.

Hopefully is more constructive and doesn't sound crazy. What do you all think of Summoning Trap for the SB? My list right now has 24 stupidly powerful creatures that can all win games for us. It costs 0 tempo when it goes off and mid game you can hardcast it with Mox+Key. It's also absurd to think about your opponent forcing a Welder or Metalwork and you trapping into Sundering Titan on turn 1/2.

[dillonkbase]

Barknob, you mention in your report that 3sphere was underwhelming, have you replaced it with anything else? what about sphere of resistance?

[Fatal]

One suggestion did anyone tried single Staff of Domination ? Its insta-kill with Metalworker.

[GoldenCid]

I'm glad to see a deck like this on stablished.
I'm running a similar list but just monobrown and whith chalices avoiding all cmc 1. Also i included all is dust as mass removal.

For reference:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Chalice of the Void
2 All Is Dust
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Great Furnace
1 Banefire
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Jester's Cap
SB: 2 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker


Maybe this answer you question!

[dillonkbase]

Goldencid
I'm not sure how you reposting that list answered my question, if you want to explain your card choices, that may be informative as you obviosly have taken a slightly different approach than barknob



just an aside as well, on the null rod question, I could see adding a single mountain to the deck for path which works with welder(the odds wouldnt really turn in your favor but it gives a little better chance, and also adding magnus of the moon to the SB

[Fatal]

With Magus they still will be mountains and counts as artifacts so they don't produce mana. I think onl way to beat null rod is.. be faster and drop some wurmcoil with welder on table before.

Here is Q&A for Blood Moon efect: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=273098

[dillonkbase]

yeah i know that you cant play it after the rod hits, due to the lack of red, but linked to my earlier comment about 3sphere in the board, I think magnus may be a good option

[GoldenCid]

Goldencid
I'm not sure how you reposting that list answered my question, if you want to explain your card choices, that may be informative as you obviosly have taken a slightly different approach than barknob


First of all i ask: What does MUD means? I thought that it was no colors. Just to evacuate the dude.

And well, i thought that i answered you because you asked for staff of domination and metalwoker and my list includes both. The answer is yes i tested them and i loved it! Even when you don't have the stuff to go off, staff serves for different purposes: gain life, tap creatures and draw a card.

The rest of my card choice devire from the stacker (brown stax): chalice + sphere effects + a toolbox of fatties. For futher explination just ask me what yu want.

Edit: Problably i'll change darksteel colosus for spine of ish sah

[dillonkbase]

Well first off golden I didn't ask about staff, but I see that you were not replying to me but the guy right after me, thus the confusion there.

I am also aware that MUD is a play on words, mono brown or mud colored like the old card frames, and that its defining card originally was metalworker, and that welder and thus RED has always migrated in and out of the archetype. I did not name this deck or the thread so its neither here nor there except that the original poster did include welder and called it mud.

I guess the relevant question for you is why abstain from welder, what match-ups do you think your more controlling approach is better for.

I am particularly interested in the use of 3sphere vs lodestone golem, vs sphere of resistance/tangle wire.

Furthermore why darksteel colossus instead of blightsteel?

[GoldenCid]

What we need is to protect our stuff as much as posible. So the most "time walk" cards we have the better. 3sphere and lodestone golem have very similar actions in the deck. Both are t2 plays that time walk the opponet without consequence for us, the same than chalice. That's the different, for me, with sor and tangle wire. All our spell cost 1 more and we have to tap too. For this reason i prefferred the first combination.

Due to i'm going to cut D. colossus i'm not considering blightsteel...

[dillonkbase]

and on welder? you are side-boarding defense grid so im guessing you could use some help with control, and surely you could lose 2 crucible and a staff for some welders, just a playstyle thing?

[GoldenCid]

and on welder? you are side-boarding defense grid so im guessing you could use some help with control, and surely you could lose 2 crucible and a staff for some welders, just a playstyle thing?

Absolutely!

[Rune]

I think some of blarknob's success with the deck comes from recognizing that Trinisphere is really awful in Legacy and that it should be a sb card at best. Its effect is very often completely negated when you're on the draw (t1 Vial, Hierarch, etc.). Those blowouts where you land 3sphere turn 1 and lock the opponent out happen so rarely. 90% of the time it's just a useless topdeck. Seriiously, this card makes you lose far more games than it wins. The recipe for making a good MUD deck in Legacy seems quite simple now: fill your deck with ridiculous threats and a ton of acceleration. 3pshere is neither of those two, and arguing for its inclusion seems to be a step in the wrong direction, IMO.

[dillonkbase]

I'm waiting for the last of the cards to arrive in the mail for some testing, but my instinct agrees with Kikoo and Barknob(he wasn't sold ) on 3sphere.

The fact that it only effects cc 0-2 makes it really sub par compared to chalice, and for more expensive threats it does nothing, I personally am looking to test sphere of resistance in its sb slot. It's much easier to play it and something else turn one, and still makes life miserable for our opponents in every situation 3sphere does and multiples aren't nightmares to draw.


Thanks Golden for the clarification btw.

[GGoober]

3Sphere requires 4 cards in opening hand to cast:

- Sol land
- Mox
- Stuff to pitch to Mox (Diamond pitching land, Chrome pitching spell)
- Trinisphere

IMO I don't understand how 3Sphere has been successfully played in the past. I think it's a delusion that "Oh shit, turn 1 Trinisphere GG", and we forget most of the time, you either open with a 3Sphere hand but cannot cast it turn 1, or you play it turn 2, where it loses its power. Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst are better options. If you tweak your maindeck to beat aggro consistently, then Thorn is the ideal slot to hate control/combo.

Thorn is MUCH more consistent on turn 1, requiring
- Sol land
- Thorn

Or
- non-Sol land (much less conditional)
- Mox
- Stuff to pitch to Mox
- Thorn

And disregarding the initial cost to casting trinisphere, I still think Thorn is much better. For 0-1cmc spells, Trinisphere is better, for 2cmc spells, they are equal, for 3cmc and higher, Thorn is just better. Multiple 3Spheres drawn are dead, multiple thorns drawn are cummulatively disruptive. The most important reason to play Thorn over 3Sphere is because Thorn is just much easily castable on turn 1 with/without Sol-lands/Moxes.

Since the format isn't Vintage i.e. Moxen/Lotus dominated, i.e. not a ton of 0-1cmc spells, Thorn is much better in Legacy than Vintage against control/combo.

[edgarps22]

Trinisphere is at its best when your meta contains decks like Combo Elves or Glimpse Affinity. In my time playing with them, in a more dedicated Welder MUD list, they have been vastly underwhelming in every match-up aside from those. Tanglewire + Winter Orb was stronger, but neither of those belong in this list, unless you wanted to run a more controlling transformational board. Trinisphere also is very good against combo, but Thorn of Amethyst would be better in that match-up as you can play it on turn 1 MUCH easier. So I would label it as a metagame call, if you have a lot of your more aggro-combo decks like elves or affinity, keep it around, but at a major tournament, Thorn will probably work much better.

[ivanpei]

I'm ready to invest heavily into this deck. No matter how much of a glass cannon this is, I've fallen in love with the elegance and awesomeness of it. Anyway I strongly believe that -2 crucibles, -4 wastelands, + 2 mountains and + 4 darksteel citadel would improve the decks consistency and lower mull rates. You lose wastelock but you gain much needed consistency.

[Al-ucard]

I'm ready to invest heavily into this deck. No matter how much of a glass cannon this is, I've fallen in love with the elegance and awesomeness of it. Anyway I strongly believe that -2 crucibles, -4 wastelands, + 2 mountains and + 4 darksteel citadel would improve the decks consistency and lower mull rates. You lose wastelock but you gain much needed consistency. I aggree with that, always in my testings the first cards I would to quit are crucible, I think we don't need wastelock in this deck at all, the only reason I have to play them are that we discard lands because mox diamond.

[dillonkbase]

I'm not saying getting rid of crucible is wrong, but IMO wasteland deserves a spot here. It makes Lodestone Golem a much bigger problem if they are already losing land to wasteland, furthermore, once they see wasteland, they will fear the lock which can effect their speed and decisions.

I know it would be nice to get some mountains into the deck(I would feel a little relief) but I'm not sure wasteland should be chopped. Wasteland after a nullrod is also way better than darksteel.

[blarknob]

Cutting crucible to improve the consistency of the manabase makes no sense at all. Crucible adds consistency to the mana base.

Trinisphere is pretty terrible. I've already replaced it in the sideboard with other things. It is only good against combo.

[ivanpei]

For the same reasons, I have actually proposed a blue splash list here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20000-Master-Transmuter-MUD&p=521776

I don't want to clog up this thread. It's basically similar to this deck but with blue for Master Transmuter instead of Lodestone and Chalice instead of Welder. Some other tweaks like Fabricate instead of top. Being able to run Chalice MD IMO is the greatest advantage at the price of losing the late game power of Welder. Blue also gives you outs to Rod like Negate or Annul.

[Anusien]

What role is Steel Hellkite supposed to fulfill?

[ivanpei]

Tutorable out VS moat etc? Seems to be the only removal effect in the MD. I'd prefer duplicant to be in the MD too though, but space is pretty tight as it is.

[blarknob]

yeah hellkite was a kind of catch all answer/sweeper. I didn't forgemaster for it once in Indy. I could see replacing it with duplicant main.

[dillonkbase]

Blarknob, any plans on writing a primer, the QS article is pretty good, but something for the front page that explains sideboarding swaps, and some of the mulligan decisions would be helpful to me(and others I would assume). I think it would also focus the discussion here in this thread, because MUD can go so many directions setting limits on what makes this deck special(welder+metalworker-or whatever).

[blarknob]

I'll have more content on the deck posted up on quietspeculation later in the week.

[Al-ucard]

yeah hellkite was a kind of catch all answer/sweeper. I didn't forgemaster for it once in Indy. I could see replacing it with duplicant main. Yes, I think will be a good solution, last friday I lost due the impossibility to search something with kuldotha that deals with an emrakul, duplicant will be great here.

[Anusien]

What makes this build special is discipline. Anybody can have ideas. Anybody can have good ideas. One of the biggest keys to Bomholt's success is the discipline to just focus on what matters and ignore the irrelevant cards. Things like Staff of Domination, Blightsteel Colossus, etc, make the deck ineffective and cute rather than powerful.

Edit: This is true of most successful decks.

[Koby]

Yes, I think will be a good solution, last friday I lost due the impossibility to search something with kuldotha that deals with an emrakul, duplicant will be great here.

I wonder if Spine of Ish Sah would work better? 7 mana is not out of reach for this deck, and the ability to have recurring removal is nothing to scoff at either. What are your thoughts?

[Volrath]

I wonder if Spine of Ish Sah would work better? 7 mana is not out of reach for this deck, and the ability to have recurring removal is nothing to scoff at either. What are your thoughts?

+ Spine deals with pesky humilities, that last land that your Titan didn't wreck or that maze of ith that's been holding you back.

I would, however, not cut the Hellkite. Evasion is key, also EE'ing your opponents board can quickly turn the game in your favor.

My list

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [US] Mountain (4)
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [ARC] Lightning Greaves
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [AP] Smash
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

[SMR0079]

The Spine is great tech.

I have been testing out cutting the Tops and Keys for Chalice and 2 extra slots. Chalice at 1 or 2 is gamebreaking for so many decks and adds some needed disrupting.

[ivanpei]

Chalice + Welder is frowntown. Did that affect your games in any way? I'd recommend playing the mono brown lists or trying my blue list that plays Chalice and Master Transmuter. This deck is combo, I think that Chalice makes the MD too inconsistent.

[Broham]

Chalice + Welder is frowntown. Did that affect your games in any way? I'd recommend playing the mono brown lists or trying my blue list that plays Chalice and Master Transmuter. This deck is combo, I think that Chalice makes the MD too inconsistent.

He did state that the CotV came in for cards that costed 1 anyways. The ability to buy time while seeming to sacrificing your staying power is key to certain match ups. The Chalices and Welders are needed in different matchups. The Chalices are great against decks with Vial and combo decks, while the Welders are great against mid-range decks that pack too much spot removal for their own good. The deck is not struggling with "Chalice + Welder is frowntown" - it's one or the other. The deck has the ability to adapt to whatever strategy your opponent is playing.

I'm not trying to jump your ass ivanpei, but there are lots of people in this thread talking about how the deck could be better, and I personally believe that Bumholt has found the best foundation for the MUD deck in Legacy. I have tested about a dozen different builds of this deck a bajilllion times over the past year, and this guy has found it. Players are ulitmately forced to keep the 15 on the side aimed at Gobbos, Merfolk, and maybe graveyard hate. This deck exploits that game 2 weakness - and it does it very well.

[dillonkbase]

Volrath, I see that you have ditched the mox diamonds, for an extra opal, barb ring, and mountain--> how is that working? I know Barknob talked about yarding a furnace with diamond to get welder going, have you missed that at all?

[arebennian]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21146_New_Tech_For_Legacy_Metal_Force.html

Not to derail the Meandeck MUD, but some food for thought.

[Koby]

Transmute Artifact still requires UU to cast, and last time I checked, getting UU using 4 artifact lands, and possibly 6 Moxen is tough as nails. Every deck that I built trying to abuse the card has resulting in a bad build of the Forgemaster deck. I posit that Forgemaster is able to more quickly provide the same power at an easier cost.

[dillonkbase]

In regards to the metal force article, I think the trinisphere lure caught the author hook line and sinker. turning to islands to play 3sphere and transmute artifacts just doesn't seem that good.

[JimmyC27]

@blarknob: How important is having 2x Myr Battlesphere? Did you ever need to tutor them both up just for tokens to stop a swarm or anything?

[Koby]

I've played the deck a bit, and as far as I can tell, the 2 Myr Batteballs are in case you draw one before you get Kuldotha Forgemaster active.

[blarknob]

I've played the deck a bit, and as far as I can tell, the 2 Myr Batteballs are in case you draw one before you get Kuldotha Forgemaster active.

It also makes your battlesphere lethal when you forgemaster on their endstep and your turn.

[edgarps22]

Also it can get very silly, and give u that extra reach if you have both forgemaser and an active welder.

[Al-ucard]

Another top:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5612&iddeck=40617

Thoughts?

[Volrath]

The dynamo makes me cringe
Also Blightsteel seems like ''the danger of cool thing'', it only works with with forgemaster + empty board.

The flute in his SB makes me wonder, when does one board it in?.

[dillonkbase]

Thran dynamo over mox diamond.... thats living on the edge. Interesting article on SCG, and it looks like a week or so more of them according to the author. building a legacyl (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21165_Building_a_Legacy_Breaking_Down_the_Strategy_of_Ancient_Tomb_MUD_Edition.html)

[vikram]

This deck doesn't make any sense to me. How do you get high casting cost artifacts into the yard to bring out with welder in the first place. You play no Thirst or other discard effects like Vintage welder decks. If you are counting on opposing decks, what about the many decks that only use swords/path or that are combo and don't play removal? If you are counting on Forgemaster, why not play a single solitary Blightsteel and win the game right then and there? The deck does play Lightning Greaves.

Why not just stick to monobrown, play land that can make more mana like Crystal Vein, maybe play chalice or else max out on awesome artifact creatures and play more wurmcoils, more steel hellkites etc since crystal vein generates twice as much mana as mountain. Adding color to a mostly monobrown deck and manabase just adds a lot of unneeded inconsistency.

[Anusien]

You cast them and they get countered. If you resolve a Welder, I don't think Merfolk can ever beat you. Turn 1 Welder, turn 2 Grim Monolith, turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, get it countered, weld it in for your tapped Monolith. Untap, bash for 6, then weld it out for the now untapped Grim Monolith which casts a Forgemaster.

[GGoober]

This deck doesn't make any sense to me. How do you get high casting cost artifacts into the yard to bring out with welder in the first place. You play no Thirst or other discard effects like Vintage welder decks. If you are counting on opposing decks, what about the many decks that only use swords/path or that are combo and don't play removal? If you are counting on Forgemaster, why not play a single solitary Blightsteel and win the game right then and there? The deck does play Lightning Greaves.

Why not just stick to monobrown, play land that can make more mana like Crystal Vein, maybe play chalice or else max out on awesome artifact creatures. More wurmcoils, more steel hellkites etc since crystal vein generates twice as much mana as mountain.

Look at the deck more. Forgemasters, Mox Diamond, your opponents countering MW/bombs.

Welder is there primarily to reuse countered bombs. You can ramp into Wurmcoils/forgemasters easily, and these are highly likely targets that get countered. The rest is Welder filling in the story. This deck is all bombs, opponents have to answer them, in the process, Welder inherently gains value even without discard/sac outlets.

[Koby]

Goblin Welder is strictly in the deck for decks with removal and counters. Nothing is scarier to a deck that has counterspell than a resolved Welder, because it completely invalidates all your counters. Same with non-exiling removal.

Imagine you're playing Zoo, and your source of removal for the turn is Qasali Pridemage, against Wurmcoil Engine. Things looks pretty grim at that point.

Against decks that don't run solid removal/counters, the Forgemaster plan should be sufficient. Lightning Greaves helps with that department as well.

EDIT:
Is there any consensus on an updated sideboard? Bomholt mentioned that Trinisphere was not so useful for him in the tournament. Phyrexian Revoker and Chalice/Thorns are both good candidates, but that still leaves about 5-7 cards more. Equipment seems like a good plan against tribal too, but how much so? Would Pithing Needle overkill at that point? Duplicant? Razormane Masticore?

[vikram]

Look at the deck more. Forgemasters, Mox Diamond, your opponents countering MW/bombs.

Welder is there primarily to reuse countered bombs. You can ramp into Wurmcoils/forgemasters easily, and these are highly likely targets that get countered. The rest is Welder filling in the story. This deck is all bombs, opponents have to answer them, in the process, Welder inherently gains value even without discard/sac outlets.

Mox Diamond makes you discard lands, not artifacts. If you activated Forgemaster at the end of your opponents end step as you should, just grab your lone blightsteel with it and win the game immediately. And if the only other value of welder is against decks with counterspells, then it should be a sideboard card, not a maindeck card. Chalice is such an immensely powerful card, to not play it for a card that could instead be in the board doesn't make much sense to me.

[GGoober]

Mox Diamond makes you discard lands, not artifacts. If you activated Forgemaster at the end of your opponents end step as you should, just grab your lone blightsteel with it and win the game immediately. And if the only other value of welder is against decks with counterspells, then it should be a sideboard card, not a maindeck card. Chalice is such an immensely powerful card, to not play it for a card that could instead be in the board doesn't make much sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you because you like many other people, fail to look at what a card does for a deck but only insist on running cards for what the cards are worth. It's like saying Brainstorm is so awesome, run it in Merfolks. As much as Merfolks could use Brainstorm, it just doesn't do as much for what the deck wants.

I'm honestly quite sick of this (sorry for the slight troll). Test the deck. It did well for a reason, the Chalice are in the board for a reason. The inventor had his reasons, and performance proved that.

But to let you know why Chalice isn't played MD, I'll point a few things out if you don't realize:
1) chalice stops 60-70% of important spells in Legacy (we both agree on this)
2) Meandeck MUD does not need Chalice MD why? Because aside from combo matchup, it has a solid matchup with its configuration against control and aggro. The maindeck is clearly tailored to beat these matchups to pulp.
3) chalice is in the SB for this very reason. It will be much more useful against combo where Welders and Keys are not.
4) Chalice is such a powerful card, do you play it? Yes and no. You play it if your deck cannot handle the matchup where Chalice can, but if your maindeck can beat the matchups without Chalice, it's time to evaluate if Welder + key > Chalice in those matchup, and I can tell you that the sheer speed, inevitability of Welder/Key is going to be much more valuable than Chalice.

And apparently you don't see how to use Mox Diamonds to fuel welder. You can either discard Great Furnace or just play the Diamond without pitching land to get it in the yard. But that's not important, most importantly, the deck is asking opponents to deal with its threat, and there's nothing better than yet another threat (welder) who is going to negate all the effort spent on denying this deck's bombs.

@rukus/blarknob: I'm not sure if you guys tested Thorn over 3Sphere, but I'm very much sold on this 4 Thorn in the SB if the MD is tailored to beat aggro. Thorn is even stronger when you pair it up with Lodestones and Wastelands and unlike 3sphere is both easy to cast and stacks with each other. 3Sphere has to be turn 1 or nothign. a turn 2 3sphere is at best as powerful as a turn 2 thorn (assuming opponents can start playing 2cmc spells where they gain equal footing). Not sure about the other 5-7 slots, but 3 Tangle Wire has been quite a good option for my MUD deck SB against either control/enchantress/combo/Show and Tell (in conjunction with 4 Thorn of amethyst). I think Tangle Wire is even stronger in his deck than mine due to Welder. With all his accelerants/keys/monoliths, he can abuse tangle wire more than any deck can, while at the same time, sneaking more thorns/spheres/lodestones/bombs online.

[nodahero]

Sphere > Thorn... Especially against Zoo... Or am I missing something?

I particularly enjoy this deck. It feels like playing vintage just a tad.

Perhaps I havnt tested the deck enough, but it seems like the Greaves are not that god. It feels like the worst card in the deck to me. I would suggest changes but I really don't know. I dislike the Greaves but understand there value.

[Koby]

@rukus/blarknob: I'm not sure if you guys tested Thorn over 3Sphere, but I'm very much sold on this 4 Thorn in the SB if the MD is tailored to beat aggro. Thorn is even stronger when you pair it up with Lodestones and Wastelands and unlike 3sphere is both easy to cast and stacks with each other. 3Sphere has to be turn 1 or nothign. a turn 2 3sphere is at best as powerful as a turn 2 thorn (assuming opponents can start playing 2cmc spells where they gain equal footing). Not sure about the other 5-7 slots, but 3 Tangle Wire has been quite a good option for my MUD deck SB against either control/enchantress/combo/Show and Tell (in conjunction with 4 Thorn of amethyst). I think Tangle Wire is even stronger in his deck than mine due to Welder. With all his accelerants/keys/monoliths, he can abuse tangle wire more than any deck can, while at the same time, sneaking more thorns/spheres/lodestones/bombs online.

I've played around with Deep Blue for many months now, and even in Elves in the sideboard for the combo matchups. I'm definitly sold on Thorns for this specific matchup (as well as some control decks too, like Landstill = 100% spells). 3sphere is theoritically stronger, but Thorns in multiples allows you tax much more. Tangle Wire seems like a good addition too, as I've found that at times you're waiting on threats to cast. I'm especially enjoying how well Thorns works in an aggro-prison deck.

All our threats are not effected. Our accelerants are marginally effected (Monolith provides parity, Key and Top still cheap to cast with a Sol-land). The ability to more reliably cast this Resistor under normal conditions (single Sol-land, or any land + Mox Diamond) is a huge advantage over 3sphere.

I have not tested Thorn of Amethyst specifically in this build, but I have extensively in Deep Blue, and have been happy with it there. Bomholt's list has included heavier ended cards which I had not considered before, and having briefly tested them, really enjoyed both the threat range and how easy it is to cast them.. Kuldotha Forgemaster beig 5 mana is a HUGE boon for this deck, over the more costly 6 mana threshhold.

Lodestone Golem + Thorns is indeed a very solid clock/lock.


Sphere > Thorn... Especially against Zoo... Or am I missing something?


That's very true, but the purpose of Thorns is against dedicated control rather than vs Aggro. Chalice is much better against Zoo and non-Vial aggro. Vial aggro is a difference monster all together however, as they can easily cast Vial before we get Chalice out in time. Similar to Aggro Loam's issues with Vial aggro, I don't think that CotV is a good card against such decks.

[GGoober]

@nodahero: 3Sphere beats Zoo if you drop it first i.e. go first. Assuming you rofl'd Zoo game 1 with this deck, they will go first drop a cat, and your 3sphere won't look too impressive unless you can follow up with threats. Assuming on the draw you turn 1 3sphere, you are down 3 cards and chances are your other 5 cards better be the correct combination of bombiness before they recover with a pridemage/grip. Overall in his list, 3Sphere is still strong due to huge synergy with Monoliths and much more consistent abilities to drop bombs to follow up the tempo gain from 3sphere. Dragonstompy and other stompy decks don't have the synergy/consistency (no monoliths, drawing a hand of stable accelerants + 3sphere + good creature is usually rare for Dragonstompy) to abuse 3sphere as well as this deck has.

NVM, I forgot that Thorns affect much more spells in his own deck than 3sphere. I think this is the main reason why he stuck with Spheres in the end. Blarknob any insights on past testings with thorns? I guess you are boarding out keys/welders anyway against combo for chalice, so thorns could still be alright with the monoliths.

[keys]

Right now I think the best sideboard would be:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant

The Crypts/Duplicant are the flex slot. Dup is very helpful against Show & Tell/Emrakul decks, Peacekeeper/Dreadnought, and the stompy mirror. Crypt + Welder is game over vs Dredge, and easily tutorable with Forgemaster. Those spots could also be Tangle Wires vs lots of control.

None of the answers to Null Rod really impress me. I think you just have to dodge it. Building a defense against it would require a lot of changes.

I also think the 2nd Myr Battlesphere could be a Sculpting Steel. I recall the OP saying the only reason he wanted 2 was to be able to Forge twice for them. Steel serves the same purpose, while also being a better draw (arguably).

[SMR0079]

If you decide on welder main Chalice in the board, I would reccomend sticking with Greaves. Avoiding the removal and activating a turn earlier is devastating. You need to play Welder or Chalice main. IF you go with Welder and leave Chalice in the board you want a way to protect it along with Worker.

There are a few different directions you can take these decks that are all viable. We are testing four different versions right now, and Bomholt's has actually been the most inconsistent.

MonoBrown increases the consistency and allows you to play the prison game more effectivley. Having access to CrucibleWAste and Chalice/Trini main is nothing to scoff at. It provides free wins all on it's own. It does hurt your match against counterspells

[nodahero]

I wasn't talking about 3sphere... I was referring to Sphere of Resistance. Sorry for the confusion.

[dillonkbase]

nodahero, I don't think anyone was confused, the thing is revoker plus chalice has proven enough against most aggro decks, you really only bring in a resistor vs combo, and so thorn is just as good if not better than sphere because in the combo matchup it effects you less, or asymmetrically.

[Final Fortune]

I'm losing games to Zoo that I shouldn't be losing thanks to 0 Mountains for Path to Exile, I don't think you can really afford to not play a Mountain(s) and turn Path to Exile into a better Swords to Plowshares in that match up.

I haven't been really impressed with Wasteland or Crucible of Worlds either, I think if you're going to attack their manabase you may as well run MD or SB Blood Moons since they're such ridiculous must counters for BANT etc. Top also hasn't pulled its weight for me, and I really feel the deck wants more random 6 drops like Steel Hellkite to just own the board.

[(nameless one)]

Alright,

As a budget player, I am inclined to ask for budget option (since I am interested on building this)

Manabase- I have a playset of Wastelands and Great Furnaces. My only problem now are the "Sol Lands". I shouldn't have any problems aquiring Ancient Tombs as they are cheap. However, City of Traitors seems like its out of my budget. Would Crystal Vein be a good substitute or City of Traitors is needed for the deck's explosiveness? Also, 16 Lands to support Mox Diamond? Would adding 1 or 2 Mountains ideal?

Core- Metalworkers, Goblin Welder, Grim Monolith, Lodestone Golem, Kuldotha Forgemaster> A must playset for this deck. I will not even ask for budget alternative.

Rest- Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine, Flex slots> What exactly is the correct number?

Sideboard- With my accounted budget, I only have enough money to build the main. The only pricy card that I dont have in the Indy Open side is Chalice of the Void. I have seen Thorn of Amethyst on some sides. Does that actually work (I would imagine that we're siding CotV against Storm).

I know this deck stomps tribal aggro, but what about Zoo? what are the good, okay and bad matchups of this deck? I wanna make sure that it suits my meta before I actually spend my cash on it.

The current budget is $300 and no more than that. I already have a playset of Wastelands, Sensei's Divining Top, 3 Mox Diamonds, a Crucible of Worlds and some of the cheap MBS rares.

Any more budget advice? Thanks in advance!

[kkoie]

Sideboard- With my accounted budget, I only have enough money to build the main. The only pricy card that I dont have in the Indy Open side is Chalice of the Void. I have seen Thorn of Amethyst on some sides. Does that actually work (I would imagine that we're siding CotV against Storm).


I could see subbing City of Traitors. It's a sol land and provides a ton of accel, but if you can't afford it I can see replacing it with something else.

However I would strongly urge you to not replace Chalice of the Void. I admit I've not messed with this deck, but I have played various MUD decks in the past and CoTV is a vital component against more than just combo. It's also a great card to use against control decks as well as zoo and a smattering of other decks.

Borrow a playset until you have the cash to buy them. Ebay has a playset for $35 w/ free shipping.

[GGoober]

I'm losing games to Zoo that I shouldn't be losing thanks to 0 Mountains for Path to Exile, I don't think you can really afford to not play a Mountain(s) and turn Path to Exile into a better Swords to Plowshares in that match up.

I haven't been really impressed with Wasteland or Crucible of Worlds either, I think if you're going to attack their manabase you may as well run MD or SB Blood Moons since they're such ridiculous must counters for BANT etc. Top also hasn't pulled its weight for me, and I really feel the deck wants more random 6 drops like Steel Hellkite to just own the board.

I've been playing 1 Island in my Stompy build against Path, and it's not worth it. You'll see Zoo with Path and you lose a chance to grab a basic, but outside of Zoo, very little decks run Path (control does not in general, neither does countertop and only some bant lists pack 2-3 Path in the SB).

Against Zoo/Bant etc, Chalices come in which either means you're stopping StP/Path, or you are playing without Chalice i.e. denser accelerants/threats that probably come too fast for Path to matter. From my playtesting, I felt that my MUD list without a basic did better than one with basic. You will lose to Wastelock, and don't get as much value as Path, but these are narrow-scenarios, and I've found that being greedy tends to win out more against the narrow-scenarios.

[sco0ter]

I was thinking about some cheap alternatives as well. However, I never playtested this deck, nor did I try it with alternatives. I play a slightly different version with UR Manabase for Esperzoa and Thirst mainly (see Welderzoa thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18734-WelderZoa)).

Metalworker/Grim Monolith replacements that COULD work:

Thran Dynamo
Worn Powerstone
Vedalken Engineer
Mana Flare
Seething Song
Semblance Anvil
Etherium Sculptor
Cloud Key


The best substitue for City is probably Vein, yes. Maybe you can give Sandstone Needle or Gemstone Caverns a try, too!?

I am not sure if it is a good idea to mimic a deck, which you aren't. I'd rather try to build it with less >5-6 mana spells so that you don't need City (e.g. like this Vintage Welderzoa (http://decklist.zmx.cc/decklist/Vintage/Gael%20Bailly-Maitre/3928.html) :-P).

[justindz]

Hey all. I was helping a friend practice this deck against CounterBalance and we discovered a problem. MUD has an insanely narrow line of play against a resolved Ensnaring Bridge. I was playing 4 E. Tutor in CounterTop Thopter, and so that happened a lot on turn 3 or so. Now, granted UW CounterTop is pretty low % in most events, so maybe you just chalk it up as a rough one and have Duplicant for Peacekeepers, but Ensnaring Bridge (and to some extent Moat as well) do seem very tough to beat. We played 8 matches, 4 each way swapping decks and MUD managed 1 out of 8. That game was won by the first turn Lodestone, no FoW, second turn Greaves plan where the opponent got down to one and was able to be killed by a Metalworker who could sneak under the Bridge with 4 cards in hand shutting down the Lodestone.

The only other line of play that almost worked was using Sundering Titan to destroy enough land that cards built up and a lethal swing could be carried out. That one seems possible and worth noting, but really hard to pull off. UW Countertop runs a lot of cheap cards and can empty the hand fast with FoW + E. Tutor giving card disadvantage.

There's also a line of play where you Welder their Bridge to the GY, but that almost never presented itself since the UW deck rarely had any artifacts in the GY during the game unless it had already taken over the game, killed any Welder and was just going off.

So, if you care about this match, what are sideboard options? Any thoughts? Here's what we came up with so far. Please don't laugh:

Spine of Ish Shah - Forgemaster target, reasonably cast-able, not affected by Null Rod, can't be stopped by any CounterBalance activations, not much synergy with Welder, but hits Peacekeeper, Bridge and Moat, doesn't fear K-Grip much or worry too much about being bounced.

Lux Cannon - reasonably hard to stop with CounterBalance, easily cast-able, affected by Null Rod, slow without Voltaic Key, hits all relevant targets, fears K-Grip.

Shattering Pulse (or similar removal) - usually easy to stop with CounterBalance, not tutor-able, can't help with Moat or Peacekeeper.

Spine seems like the best. How weird is that? Of course, I tend to play UB combo decks so there's probably some great option out there that I wouldn't dream up. Any thoughts?

[JimmyC27]

Alright,

As a budget player, I am inclined to ask for budget option (since I am interested on building this)

Manabase- I have a playset of Wastelands and Great Furnaces. My only problem now are the "Sol Lands". I shouldn't have any problems aquiring Ancient Tombs as they are cheap. However, City of Traitors seems like its out of my budget. Would Crystal Vein be a good substitute or City of Traitors is needed for the deck's explosiveness? Also, 16 Lands to support Mox Diamond? Would adding 1 or 2 Mountains ideal?



I subbed out 2x City of Traitors for 2x Darksteel Citadel. It helps you play around Wasteland, plus it can be Welder'd or Worker'd. Saves you $50-100.

Cheers,

Jimmy

[tomjulioo]

the problem is that you probably won't be able to cast spine if your opponent have null rod (7 manas only with sol-lands is hard...)

[justindz]

the problem is that you probably won't be able to cast spine if your opponent have null rod (7 manas only with sol-lands is hard...)

Yeh. And you can't Forgemaster it up in that situation. I think that suggestion was more for Ensnaring Bridge/Moat/Peacekeeper in the CounterTop matchup. Null Rod pretty much requires a different class of answers, I think.

[dillonkbase]

peacekeeper, moat, and bridge all lose to triskelion, its really about hitting the right solution for your meta, sometimes duplicant is better, sometimes hellkite, sometimes trisk, seems like the debate on these cards (at least dup and trisk) have been going on forever. They all have limits, and I doubt wizards will ever give artifacts much better, these cards are all bombs.

[(nameless one)]

So I got home, proxied and goldfished the Indiana list. Sometimes it's explosive but for the most part, I had to mull to oblivion. Is 16 lands really enough to support Mox Diamond or am I missing anything?

[Anusien]

The deck is 30 mana sources already, so you risk flooding out even more if you just start adding more lands.

[GGoober]

The deck is 30 mana sources already, so you risk flooding out even more if you just start adding more lands.

This is somewhat flawed in thinking. Obviously if you view Mox/Lands/Monoliths as equivalent mana sources, then yes you are correct in resource-flood. But assuming if cards have to be cut to maintain 30 mana sources, then it remains to see if running 16 lands with 3 Mox Diamond is ideal. Because drawing Mox Diamond means that you need to pair it up with at least 2 lands to use it to fullest: make a land drop, pitch a land to Mox. If you just draw 1 land, you have to either miss a land drop or treat Mox Diamond as a dead draw, so assuming the ideal case that a hand should draw 2 lands + diamond + 4 other cards, here's the EXACT math for 16 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds:

Using Multivariate Hypergeometric Distribution (since we're dealing with more than 1 type of cards)

Decklist:
3 Mox Diamond
16 Lands
41 other cards

Probability of opening 7 to contain at least 2 lands and a Mox diamond + 4 other cards:
= prob(at least 2 lands + 1 Mox + 4 other cards)
= prob(2 lands + 1 Mox + 4 other cards)
+ prob(3 lands + 1 Mox + 3 other cards)
+ prob(4 lands + 1 Mox + 2 other cards)
+ prob(5 lands + 1 Mox + 1 other cards)
+ prob(6 lands + 1 Mox + 0 other cards)
=combin(3,1)*combin(16,2)*combin(41,4)/combin(60,7) + ... + ...
=15.38%

(where combin is the choose function i.e. combin(3,1) is 3 choose 1)


Compare this to 24 lands playing 3 Mox Diamonds:
prob(at least 2 lands + 1 Mox + 4 other cards)
= prob(2 lands + 1 Mox + 4 other cards)
+ prob(3 lands + 1 Mox + 3 other cards)
+ prob(4 lands + 1 Mox + 2 other cards)
+ prob(5 lands + 1 Mox + 1 other cards)
+ prob(6 lands + 1 Mox + 0 other cards)
=combin(3,1)*combin(24,2)*combin(33,4)/combin(60,7) + ... + ...
=22.903%

15.4% v.s. 22.9% is quite significant ~7.5%, but 24-land builds means that you have less business spell so that 7.5% is probably justified by playing other accelerants and other business spells. However, it's still not as simple as trading 7.5% opening with Diamond + 2 lands for business spells because there's also a great risk with the probability of drawing dead card i.e. 1-land hands with Mox Diamonds (this probability is greater than decks playing 24 lands with Mox Diamonds since you're more likely to draw 1 land running 16 lands instead of 24 lands).

Irregardless, it's to show the trade off between consistent Mox Diamond openings with more gas/business spell, but there will definitely be higher chances of mulligans. (I'm not factoring that he can use Grim Monolith into this analysis. It's strictly to study the relationship of Mox Diamond and 16 lands. Obviously, having 3 Grim Monoliths will offset the inconsistency, but it won't solve the inherent problem of the chances of drawing 2 lands + mox diamond).

But this all the more stresses the OP's comment on how mulligans are important in the deck. You have a higher density of threats with this risky manabase, so it's already seen that he acknowledges the deck is more prone to mulligans, but it pays off, because of the denser threat/combo. People who complain about the deck being inconsistent, are the ones who are not recognizing that mulligan plays an even bigger importance in piloting this deck correctly.

[Anusien]

My point was more that there are only 30 relevant cards, so when you add lands, you cut into that number.

[SMR0079]

I have run into this problem against Coutertop - which is proving to be a miserable matchup if you don't either get a Welder active or resolve turn 1 Trini/Chalice. With such a low threat density they are able to counter, remove, or clique you into oblivion. I have been testing out all sorts of configurations and this matchup is making me reconsider the archetypes viability. The next incarnation is more of a Steel Stompy deck that splashes white for SFM/Equipment, Canonist, and Oblivion Ring for some troublesome cards.

[(nameless one)]

I have also been playtesting against Quinn with this deck. Usually a resolved Humility sucks the fun out of this deck and Quinn is really good at grabbing its Humility.

I playtested with a buddy 10 times, we'd switch deck and so far, it was 8-2 in favor of Quinn. The only times this deck won was when the Quinn deck had clumps on lands on top of its library and when the MUD deck went crazy with Forgemaster, Greaves and Welder on turn 2-3.

[HokusSchmokus]

How about Smash to Smitherens or Shattering spree against Null Rod?

[bruizar]

This deck doesn't change any of the problems that metalworker decks have. Swords to plowshares simply beats you. You simply don't run enough lands to win without Metalworker. There's not enough cheap artifacts to turn on mox opal. All you can do is try to resolve a Grim Monolith and go for a Forgemaster, but often, I find myself not even having 3 artifacts to sack. This deck powers out bombs. When you stop them from being able to power out high CC cards, the deck dies. Unlike good mud lists, this deck does not disrupt (except for Sundering Titan) or slow down your opponent in any sort of way.

The deck plays like affinity. Either it goes nuts or it dies horribly. It's an inconsistent pile imo.

[edgarps22]

Or if you simply add Thirst for Knowledge, like I have, having 4 more draw spells makes it a LOT more consistent, and still just as strong. Swords actually is not my worst fear, go ahead swords my metalworker. You had better have had force for the early welder, and swords for the metalworker, and pray that I did not see forgemaster. The list I run is very consistent, can hardcast most anything in the deck as early as turn 2, with monoliths, and does so every time.

[Al-ucard]

This deck doesn't change any of the problems that metalworker decks have. Swords to plowshares simply beats you. You simply don't run enough lands to win without Metalworker. There's not enough cheap artifacts to turn on mox opal. All you can do is try to resolve a Grim Monolith and go for a Forgemaster, but often, I find myself not even having 3 artifacts to sack. This deck powers out bombs. When you stop them from being able to power out high CC cards, the deck dies. Unlike good mud lists, this deck does not disrupt (except for Sundering Titan) or slow down your opponent in any sort of way.

The deck plays like affinity. Either it goes nuts or it dies horribly. It's an inconsistent pile imo.

Here an example of someone that don't know how to play the deck XD

[Final Fortune]

This deck doesn't change any of the problems that metalworker decks have. Swords to plowshares simply beats you. You simply don't run enough lands to win without Metalworker. There's not enough cheap artifacts to turn on mox opal. All you can do is try to resolve a Grim Monolith and go for a Forgemaster, but often, I find myself not even having 3 artifacts to sack. This deck powers out bombs. When you stop them from being able to power out high CC cards, the deck dies. Unlike good mud lists, this deck does not disrupt (except for Sundering Titan) or slow down your opponent in any sort of way.

The deck plays like affinity. Either it goes nuts or it dies horribly. It's an inconsistent pile imo.

I agree the manabase is problematic, even replacing Wasteland with Darksteel Citadul leaves Mox Opal wanting and Mox Diamond has been a land at best in too many games. I'm starting to wonder if replacing the acceleration with lands and relying on Lightning Greaves to make up for the speed is possible.

The deck also doesn't utilize red very well, blood moon is pretty ridiculous and a lot of the time I wish I could just graft Dragon Stompy's disruption and this deck's threats on top of each other.

[bruizar]

Here an example of someone that don't know how to play the deck XD

I have been playing mono brown lists for 5 months in legacy now, and have played workshop decks in vintage for years. Please don´t tell me this list is consistent, because it isn´t. A good game with this deck requires enough land, enough cards to power out gas, and enough gas. These 3 elements make it highly inconsistent because normally, only mana and cards are neccesary. With this deck, you can get hands with

Great Furnace, Voltaic Key, Forge Master, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine, Mox Diamond, Wasteland.

Thanks fucking terrible.

I also had hands like

Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Metalworker, Goblin Welder, Wasteland

Which is also terrible.


This deck can go turn 1 Ancient Tomb lightning greaves, turn 2 Metalworker, attach Greaves, go nuts, yeah. That´s about the best start you can have with this deck. Even then, you can plow in response to the equip, with 2 ancient tomb activations chipping away at your life total without any means to defense yourself. The only reason why you can get away running this, is because people don´t have the experience fighting MUD/mono brown strategies, without artifact hate yet.

[Fatal]

Advice which was tested and much stable then primer:

I take out Mox Diamond they was really bad (sometimes helps turn 1 worker but it is all in when get FoW/StP its mostly gg)

3 slots

I add one more Lightning Greaves - its just time walk for us very useful thing (there was a word about it in primer)
2 Thran Dynamo - yes more ramp it fill the gap when Worker get StP and Monolith get Countered it doesn't need a Key to untap its really worth this 4 mana - deck is much stable now.

I take out 2 Crucible and put them into side.

Add One basic Mountain against PtE/Ghostly Quarter this land is very important in Zoo MU it also fix red Mana
I also add one Mox Opal to still have enough red mana, metalcraft is almost always done. Double Opal is much better to put Welder on action bacause when it is exchanged with welder it doesn't need land discard (like Mox Diamond).

Vs Null Rod i think there is no solution, we can only hope opponent doesn't have it, even with basic mountain its to hard to blow it. Also once i won vs null rod just be faster than it hits the table and put your fattie first. Other way to deal with it is Overload and keep opened mana, but it is rather risky.

[Volrath]

After some testing i cam up with this list

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [US] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [ARC] Duplicant

// Spells
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [ARC] Lightning Greaves
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [US] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [AP] Smash (flex slots)
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Metalcraft is hardly an issue, and the basic mountains help me cast welder and smasg from the board more reliable, also it's a plus vs Zoo G1.

I do, however, want some more shuffle effects voor Top or some more draw.
Urza's Blueprints comes to mind, and its CA is huge with a Key on the table.

[Final Fortune]

I think you're better off dropping Top altogether for additional threats, they're unnecessarily cute and consume time and mana searching for a threat instead of winning the game.

[Bloodlotus]

Hi guys, what about Lotus Petal in place of Mox Diamond ? (suggested by one guy (undertakerma) on our forum)

_you can cast your MW T1 as with Diamond but you keep your second land in hand (if any), and if it was a Sol land, you have 4 mana T2 in case MW failed (or simply if you want to play a big 5/3 robot T2...)

_produces any color

_is actually more synergistic with Welder because sacrified and feeds him

_obviously adds stability to the deck compared to Diamond

The only drawback I could find is that you lose the synergy with Mox Opal as Petal is sacrified; but currently, does Mox Opal really matter ? Have your ever regretted opening a hand with 1 land and 1 Mox Opal, which you wouldn't have to mulligan if this Mox Opal was a good ol' land ?

[edgarps22]

When i first tested my Welder MUD variant, I tested Lotus Petal a lot and found that it really sucked. You can use it for some early acceleration, but more often than not, you need a consistent source of mana. Mox Opal is very important at times, especially for me I run a set of Thirsts in the deck for added consistency and more synergy with welder. And to note, I am not using Wastelands because I don't have them, and because of that, I am not using Crucibles as there is a no real reason to run them without the Wastelands. The list I am currently running is :

Manabase
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Mox Opal

Artifacts
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Instants
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere

Sideboard

4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Contagion Engine
1 Triskelion
1 Masticore
2 Duplicant

I am actually going to take this to a tournament this weekend, so hopefully I will be able to report on what did and did not work.

[Oiolosse]

I have not tested this deck but have been working on something similar. I still play around with wildfire and so am welderless/metalworkerless. I love it that way. Welder and Metalworker are prime prime targets for removal and never seem to get there because of that.

Also, my mana-producing artifact suite is different (still use Monolith). I use Khalni Gem. It's awesome, it gives me the colored mana I need and it returns lands to my hand. This protects them from wildfire, nets me extra mana when dropping a sol land after I cast Khalni Gem and isn't a creature! Coalition Relic is also solid. Almost always gives me two mana and with voltaic key I can put extra counters for the first main phase mana.

I have been trying SDT for something of a draw engine/filter. This was last night and not actually against anyone but when toying around I found that the mana I needed to play around was a bit of a waste. The rearranging was helpful but I needed Voltaic Key for my other artifacts, notably Grim Monolith.

What am I doing, I can post details on the Wildfire thread.

[Nizmox]

Hi guys, what about Lotus Petal in place of Mox Diamond ? (suggested by one guy (undertakerma) on our forum)

In my testing I found lotus petal to be better than Mox Diamond. It is a great way to support Mox Opal and does not require discarding a land (a massive drawback in this deck I think).
Having to sacrifice never seemed to be much of a problem as I can tap Mox Opal first, then tap and sac the Petal. Usually you are generating the mana to cast another artifact so you can still use Mox Opal the following turn.

I'm still not sure if Petal is the definitive answer, but I feel sure it is better than Mox Diamond.

[manugl84]

After some testing, i´ve been comfortable with this list:

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

1 Crucible Of Worlds - Not really sure about this (though searchable). Maybe another steel hellkite, or Duplicant
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal

4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel citadel
1 Mountain - Path to exile sucks

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod´s crypt
3 Trinisphere or Thorn of amethyst
2 Duplicant
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Thoughts?

[edgarps22]

So I took the list I posted previously to about a 20 person legacy tournament today and split 3rd/4th.

Round 1 was against Countertop, essentially a very close list to the one that took 1st at SCG Indy. I won game 1 because I simply got out wurmcoil and maintained a board presence. Game 2 he eventually won with a flooding of STP's and other key removal. Game 3 I had the nuts, a turn 3 Forgemaster turned into a turn 4 Sundering Titan, that munched on his manabase.

Round 2 was vs Eva Green. Game one I resolve a metalworker after about 3 edict effects, and then produce a steel hellkite and friends to finish. Game 2 was much faster with an early metalworker, no removal on his end, and lots of big robots to finish the job. Not a hard matchup.

Round 3 I faced Alluren. Game 1 I just got lucky that he did not find any real threats, or any allurens despite 3 brainstorms, but eventually sundering titan ate his manabase and that ended it. Game 2 he saw the nuts, and I did not find my pithing needle for cavern harpy. Game 3 I saw turn 1 metalworker, turn 2 forgemaster and steel hellkite, sometimes this deck just wins.

Round 4 Draw into top 4

Round 5 Affinity, my roomate. Game one he sees early inkmoth nexus and cranial plating, I saw no hellkite. Game 2 I board in Masticore, Contagion Engine, Triskelion, and 3 Pithing needles, not one thing shows up and I get stuck on one land as he overruns the board. Not the best matchup.

Overall the blue splash was very important for consistency, the manabase was still strong, only one game was I mana screwed in 4 real rounds of play. I found it hard at times as to which cards to sideboard out, but the deck is solid as can be, countertop was not that difficult to deal with, even with seeing 3 STP's I was still ahead the entire time, as counterbalance itself does almost nothing in the matchup. Discard does not do too much because of welder, and Alluren took a little bit of luck, I will admit, but early ramp is the key in that matchup.

[paeng4983]

interesting deck....
but..
how will this win against
enchantress?
dredge?
gobs?
U-decks with trygon?
etc?

[edgarps22]

I can speak to its power against goblins and trygon. Trygon hit play in my match against countertop, and it simply was not enough on its own. He needed a real support of either goyf, or just me not seeing a robot to do anything.

Against goblins, yeah Wurmcoil is a giant nightmare. It is at best a 3 for 1 for them, and if I get one swing or block with it, it changes the game entirely. They simply cannot deal with him easily.

As for enchantress I things like mindslaver would work and completely lock them out before they can do much. The thing with this deck is that everything comes out fast. An average game I play either wurmcoil, hellkite, or forgemaster by turn 3, almost every time, with and without metalworker. Sometimes I can do that with just welder.

Dredge can be slightly rough, but lodestone golem and thorn of amethyst out of the sideboard make that matchup better than you think. Also welding away your creatures removes bridges, and cards like Silent Arbiter exist, which basically tells dredge that they lose.

The deck is blazingly fast, my build brings in consistency, I mulliganed 2 times over 4 rounds of play, and it plays very powerful cards. If one is unanswered for much more than 1 turn, chances are that it will win the game.

[Pingu]

I piloted this list in a local tournament and make it 4-1 losing only to Cephalid Breakfast

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mindslaver

3 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Everflowing Chalice
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn Amethist
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard look's a litle weird because i couldn't get the 4th Revoker, it should have been like this
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn Amethist
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Matchups were in this order:

Dredge
I got pretty lucky in the 1st game because he started dredging and got nothing, i lock him to mindslaver and goblin welder, second game i win with blightsteel on 2nd turn.

Cephalid Breakfast
He won on his 2nd turn, if i played first i woud've won on my 2nd too, i can't remember well the second game but my metalworker got bounced on 2nd turn and he win in his 3rd turn.

Merfolks
I believe it's one of the easiest matchups, 1st game i started with welder that got countered, then metalworker that sticks, the next few turns i start dropping fattys that overrun is little fishes.
2nd game i started with welder on 1st turn with daze protection that sticked 2nd turn i dropped a sword of fire-ice and equip the little guy and start bashing killing a lord in the process.

High Tide
On my 4th turn i force him to start comboing, then blightsteel keep coming to the deck makes me stay with 3 cards in the deck including him, i sac 3 artifacts play the colossus and won right on the spot.
My 2nd game i mull to 5 and keep a hand without hate he eventually won on his 3rd or 4th turn
The 3rd game i mull to 6 and get a pretty sick hand, Lodestone Golem on my 1st turn, thorn amethist on the 2nd or 3rd.

Burn
1st game i mull to 3 and you know the rest (i pile shufled in every mulligan and all but i mean all of my hands didn't have a single land).
2nd game i got an early Wurmcoil and won without much trouble.
3rd game i mull to 6 and won on the 2nd turn.


I know i had 3 shittie matchups with decks that are bellow tier 1.5 but the deck proved to be very powerfull, most of the cards need to be answered on the spot, if not, the deck is going to make the oponent cry.
Card that surprised me the most was the single Everflowing Chalice, i keep 4 hands thanks to it, if it were a Mox diamond i would have mulligan, and only in 1 hand i wish it were a diamond to play the Welder.

[Dune Echo]

# 2 Welder Stax - Michele Terzi (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1047&d=209446)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
1 Citanul Flute
2 Duplicant
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine


Welder Mud - Flavio Pecorone, 7th place (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5652&iddeck=40896)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

1 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
2 Myr Battlesphere

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Fire And Ice
3 Trinisphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

[KnightElite]

I tried the original list that Mike played in Indianapolis in a local tournament here, and unfortunately went only 2-2. I found in testing the night before that Mox Diamond seemed terrible (two more lands might sort this out), and tried Lotus Petal instead of two moxes, which was decent, but not ideal. I also played a single Spine of Ish-Sah in the sideboard, which was amazing, and I am considering playing maindeck. There's another event next weekend, and I think I will play this again, though there is at least one guy in the meta who plays Energy Flux in his sideboard, which I lost to in the tournament. Maybe Red Elemental Blast to beat that?

[Amon Amarth]

Energy Flux is pretty easy to beat, Metalworker alone answers it. Or just pay for a fatty or two and that should get you there.

Lately, I've been trying to fit in another land or two as well. Currently they are Dust Bowl and Crystal Vein. Also I've been changing up the number of Mox Diamonds and have been running between 3, 2 and 1. I've replaced Hellkite main because I've never really wanted to cast him or tutor for him. Duplicant, however, is great even if he "only" takes out Goyfs. Which is huge. I made the switch and have been happy with it.

[NukeMoose]

Energy Flux is pretty easy to beat, Metalworker alone answers it. Or just pay for a fatty or two and that should get you there.

Lately, I've been trying to fit in another land or two as well. Currently they are Dust Bowl and Crystal Vein. Also I've been changing up the number of Mox Diamonds and have been running between 3, 2 and 1. I've replaced Hellkite main because I've never really wanted to cast him or tutor for him. Duplicant, however, is great even if he "only" takes out Goyfs. Which is huge. I made the switch and have been happy with it.

I second the Duplicant. I finally got around to testing him this weekend and Welding duplicant just stomps on so many decks it's hilarious. Plus this deck can really use an out to Emrakul or Blazing Archon.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Instead of Thirst for Knowledge, why not play Intuition?

Intuition may not be "pure" card advantage, but always gets the card you need to either your graveyard or hand at instant speed. Turn 1: Welder, Turn 2: Intuition is pretty bonkers, regardless of the pile.

[anonymos]

As for enchantress I things like mindslaver would work and completely lock them out before they can do much. The thing with this deck is that everything comes out fast. An average game I play either wurmcoil, hellkite, or forgemaster by turn 3, almost every time, with and without metalworker. Sometimes I can do that with just welder.


Mindslaver targets. You may not have the 10 mana needed to play and activate slaver in one turn. The most you can really do to them is sacrifice sterling groves and break fetch lands. Maybe you'll get to attack with an Argothian.

If you want to beat enchantress play Ward of Bones. I'm a long time enchantress player. This is how I beat my deck when I was testing. It also works to keep non-vial creature decks slowed down to your pace, keeps lands from getting too far ahead (other than Manabond), and generally keeps mana hungry decks starved because all they get is 1-3 lands...and lots of artifacts.

[NukeMoose]

Instead of Thirst for Knowledge, why not play Intuition?

Intuition may not be "pure" card advantage, but always gets the card you need to either your graveyard or hand at instant speed. Turn 1: Welder, Turn 2: Intuition is pretty bonkers, regardless of the pile.

Although I think adding another color puts too much of a strain on the manabase, I would choose TtK because it's solid without an active Welder. Sometimes the deck needs gas, which TfK provides nicely. I would consider Thoughtcast before Intuition, as the deck performs well off it's own raw power without the need for trying to cram more welder tricks in.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Although I think adding another color puts too much of a strain on the manabase, I would choose TtK because it's solid without an active Welder. Sometimes the deck needs gas, which TfK provides nicely. I would consider Thoughtcast before Intuition, as the deck performs well off it's own raw power without the need for trying to cram more welder tricks in.

It's not just for Welder Tricks though. It's an instant speed Demonic Tutor for anything that you have at least 3 of in your deck. It has a ton of raw power. Goblin Welder is just gravy.

[edgarps22]

Ok now that is an awesome piece of tech I had not seen yet. I'll be trying to get some and test it out thanks for the tip. And yeah I regularly face enchantress in my meta, Mindslaver works generally because I can get it down and active faster than an enchantress deck can stabilize, especially with forgemaster picking away at them with a variety of tools. This one just makes life much much better, and in a few other matches too.

On Thirst Vs Intuition. I used to run 4 Thirst 1 Intuition .. I never wanted to see Intuition.. ever. Its a cantrip, and usually when I needed it, I needed more than 1 card, so Thirst was preferable. Thirst is the main reason to splash blue, and its a good reason, since it gives some extra gas, consistency, and makes welder better. the welder part is just gravy, the rest is what matters. In my last tournament I barely had to mulligan, that is a huge problem for the rest of the lists. I think Thirst solves that issue. At the very least it solved it for me.

[KnightElite]

I haven't tried the blue splash yet (will likely do that this weekend at a local legacy event), but it seems like you could setup some fairly decent packages with Intuition that would make it worth running, though a lot of them are only really cool with Welder.

But you could do something like fetch up Crucible of Worlds, Academy Ruins, and whatever artifact you want as a guaranteed way of getting it eventually, though this is admittedly somewhat slow. Most of the cool packages where Intuition really shines seem to involve already having a Goblin Welder on the battlefield, since then you can just put all your cards onto the battlefield from either graveyard or by casting them.

I'll try and brew something up tonight and see if there's a compelling enough reason to try that instead of Thirst for Knowledge.

[NukeMoose]

I haven't tried the blue splash yet (will likely do that this weekend at a local legacy event), but it seems like you could setup some fairly decent packages with Intuition that would make it worth running, though a lot of them are only really cool with Welder.

But you could do something like fetch up Crucible of Worlds, Academy Ruins, and whatever artifact you want as a guaranteed way of getting it eventually, though this is admittedly somewhat slow. Most of the cool packages where Intuition really shines seem to involve already having a Goblin Welder on the battlefield, since then you can just put all your cards onto the battlefield from either graveyard or by casting them.

I'll try and brew something up tonight and see if there's a compelling enough reason to try that instead of Thirst for Knowledge.

This deck lives off it's draw step-which is a lot to ask sometimes. It definitely has some consistancy problems as you can often be stuck drawing blanks after your first 2 guys get dealt with. A demonic tutor is nice, but still just a 1 for 1 trade that can sometimes be too slow. What it wants is card selection/advantage which is what Thoughtcast and TfK (or even Gifts Ungiven) can provide. However none of these options that I tried were worth messing with the manabase. Darksteel Citadel/mono red becomes almost as consistent as U/R just because you're not dealing with more colored mana issues.

However last night I tried Fact or Fiction in replace of Lodestone Golem and it performed very well. It's pretty agreed that FoF is a bomb itself where TfK or Intuition are more utility cards. Fof only costs 1 more, always nets +2CA where TfK is condition. FoF is better at digging and filling your graveyard. Not to mention FoF is proportionally awesome to however many bombs you are already running, which we have no shortage of. It's the first blue card I've tried that felt like the advantages of another color outweigh the disadvangates of the manabase to support a draw spell.

This is what I'm running right now, and it's been doing very well.

4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant

4 Fact or Fiction

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod

[KnightElite]

Seems like a very cool idea, I think I will try Fact or Fiction instead of Thirst for Knowledge in my build as well.

I'll be running this in a Legacy tournament tomorrow, and we'll see how it does:

4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Myr BattleSphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

1 Sculpting Steel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Crystal Vein
1 Academy Ruins

And the following sideboard:

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ward of Bones
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
2 Sword of Fire and Ice


Maybe I should cut the tops for something else though, if I'll be running Fact or Fiction anyway. I decided Trinisphere is better than the alternatives in my meta due to at least one guy playing elves, and not much other combo (at least not at the last event 3 weeks ago), and Steel Hellkite and Spine of Ish Sah are because there were a lot of people playing control decks with Moat and Ensnaring Bridge maindeck. Sculpting Steel takes the place of the second Myr Battlesphere for fetching, and seems like it is ridiculously awesome to weld out when it's copying Spine, since then you can get it back in your hand and copy something else. Maybe that's just too cute, but I figure I'll try it out and see how it does.

[dillonkbase]

i don't understand why a single elves player makes trinisphere better than thorn or sphere of resistance, maybe you can expand on that

[NukeMoose]

Seems like a very cool idea, I think I will try Fact or Fiction instead of Thirst for Knowledge in my build as well.

I'll be running this in a Legacy tournament tomorrow, and we'll see how it does:

4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Myr BattleSphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

1 Sculpting Steel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Crystal Vein
1 Academy Ruins

And the following sideboard:

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ward of Bones
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
2 Sword of Fire and Ice


Maybe I should cut the tops for something else though, if I'll be running Fact or Fiction anyway. I decided Trinisphere is better than the alternatives in my meta due to at least one guy playing elves, and not much other combo (at least not at the last event 3 weeks ago), and Steel Hellkite and Spine of Ish Sah are because there were a lot of people playing control decks with Moat and Ensnaring Bridge maindeck. Sculpting Steel takes the place of the second Myr Battlesphere for fetching, and seems like it is ridiculously awesome to weld out when it's copying Spine, since then you can get it back in your hand and copy something else. Maybe that's just too cute, but I figure I'll try it out and see how it does.

Top can be good, except when it's not. Without Key you have no way to shuffle the deck (Forgemaster doesn't really count, as you should be winning after activating him anyways). Even top +key is a slow engine that is mana hungry and unless you're playing against landstill/MUC isn't fast enough. Using key + casting top again + spinning it eats up 3 mana a turn. If you want an artifact CA effect I suggest you try Temporal Aperture, as it's just as abuseable with Key in mid/late game while doing a lot more by itself. As long as you hit something 2+ CC you are breaking even as you would with the top engine. Anything more than that and you're gaining a lot of tempo/free mana.

I still want to test Spine, as I fear Bridge/Moat/Humility. I'm going to the Starcity thing in Memphis Sunday and I'll probably find some slot for it in my 75. I suggest running 1 Duplicant maindeck though as it deals with tons of problem creatures (Blazing archon, Emrakul, Peacekeeper) while still being a threat. It's also more abusable with Welder so you can just wipe out their board if you are left unchecked. Since you're running Hellkite, I don't think Spine is necessary as MD card, but it's probably important to keep in your SB somehwere. Outside of those 3 control cards, there's not a lot of permanent hate that we need to overcome.

[NukeMoose]

I tested Academy Ruins and it never did anything for me. Has anyone here had any success with it? For a time I moved to Volrath's Stronghold since it can get back Welder (much more important IMO) which then gets any artifact. You can only use it through mox's though which kinda sucks, but then again it wasn't very common to be in a position to be recurring artifacts with the Ruins either. So by the time you need to do that I would think you'd have a mox online, but I haven't tested that enough to really find out. Just my 2cents for the night.

[KnightElite]

As to Trinisphere, I guess Sphere of Resistance is pretty good, and is probably a better choice. I'll try it instead maybe, I was just thinking that Thorn of Amethyst was terrible in that matchup.

Nukemoose, I've decided to cut tops and move to the 20 land with 4x Wasteland manabase you're running. After testing against a few decks tonight, I totally agree that Fact or Fiction is insane in this deck, and is especially busted with Welder. Also, the Sculpting Steel was pretty sweet, copying a titan and then being welded out once to obliterate Junk's manabase, and copying Spine, welding out returning to hand and copying spine again to blow up two Tarmogoyfs in another game. I think it's a pretty sweet card most of the time, and is worth playing as a singleton.

Also, from testing againt the new Time Spiral combo deck, it seems like a bad matchup. The only way to win in game one is basically to race, or to get Sundering Titan to stall them a bit. The second game is a bit better, but they run a singleton rebuild to tutor for, which is a beating at EOT the turn before going off.

[NukeMoose]

Thanks for the input KE. I haven't tested against elves, but is Chalice and Revoker not enough? I can't see wasting SB slots against them as there are many more common decks to worrya bout. Like true combo decks...

I tested against Spiral while Lodestone Golem was still in and it was fairly even, but now that LSG is out it's probably a true bad matchup. Chalice can stall for a while but that's about our only weapon against them. I would say Thorn is probably the best bet, as it stalls them while we can still cast our 20 creatures and 4 instants easily through it. Or maybe 3sphere might be what we are looking for, since it does what it does well, it's just not right for all matchups like many stompy decks would lead you to believe.

I may try Sculpting Steel in place of my second Battlesphere. You definitely need 2 MBS effects. At first I thought it was so you could Forgemaster for one while one is in your hand, but after playing a shitton of games I've decided that doesn't happen very often, you usually just need to tutor for 2 of them to stabilize the board. Steel fits that plan nicely while also being more open other options.

Spine's "drawback" or returning to your hand can also be dodged by Steel, good call on that!

[NukeMoose]

Nukemoose, I've decided to cut tops and move to the 20 land with 4x Wasteland manabase you're running.

The deck definitely can make it's plays off of 20 land, but I really would like to cram a 21'st in there. I used to run Darksteel Citidel but without those this deck has many awesome hands that risk being blown out by wasteland/sinkhole/vindicate. Looking at the results from the last few T8's JWB junk is getting pretty popular and I'd feel a lot better with my starting 2 land hands if I was running another land or two.

I just don't know what to cut as the list is very tight already.

[KnightElite]

Well, I wound up going 3-1 in our 14 man legacy event today, beating Goblins round 1, losing to Time Spiral combo round 2, and beating Belcher and Team America in round 3/4. Unfortunately, my tie breakers were horrible since I got paired down in every round after the first (high tide player lost Reanimator reanimating an Iona on the 3rd turn in both games, heh).

Overall seemed very good, Fact or Fiction was amazing, and Thorn of Amethyst in the board was awesome vs. Belcher (Elves player played a different deck, so I played Thorn today). Sculpting Steel was solid in several games, mediocre in a couple where if it had been a real threat it would have been better (hands like 2x sol lands, double monolith, Sculpting Steel), but I think it's still good as a second fetchable of either Battlesphere or Sundering Titan, so I will be leaving it in. Spine got sided out a fair bit today, since it wasn't particularly good against most of the decks I played against, I think I only left it in vs. Team America.

As to cutting cards, I agree that it is tough, since there really are very few free slots. The most likely thing I would cut next, or maybe move to the sideboard is likely a single Wurmcoil engine if you needed to fit one in there.

Time Spiral combo is a terrible matchup with this version of the list (maybe Lodestone Golem helps here as you say, but I'm not sure if it's enough, though it is disruption + clock, which is good). I tested against it some last night as well, and he just crushed me in every game. After sideboarding, he boards in Hurkyl's Recalll, and leaves Rebuild in the board to wish for. We were joking that the win here might be to play something silly like Cerebral Vortex or Runeflare Trap in the board, though I doubt it's worth playing poor cards like that for just that one matchup :).

[sanin]

I picked up all the cards for this deck, but just moved and unfortunately there is no local legacy community. Ive been goldfishing and have managed to get a few games in, but have been having a real issue testing the directions I want to take the deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Shah

4 Goblin Welder
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Lodstone Golem
1 Spine of Ish Shah
2 Mindslaver

My initial change to the deck was taking out the Tops for Serum Powder. The obvious main issue with the deck is mulligans, the powders were excellent at making sure the deck had a good hand to start, but still did nothing to address blanking on a top deck. My next thought is Mikokoro, Ive yet to actually test with it, but it helps with the 3 Mox Diamonds, and used at the end of an opponents turn minimizes the downside of giving an extra card. All of my playtesting and everytime Ive seen the deck played makes me think Spine is necessary MD. This deck is just dead to an ensnaring bridge or humility, and having a tutorable 1 of to make every match winable seems like the safe call. The sideboard should be pretty self explanatory, Mindslaver lock is the only way I see this deck winning against a deck like High Tide, and should help with tougher matchups like CounterTop and Team America. And Im running SoFaF right now for the pro colors. All the best decks right now run green creatures, and decks like Goblins and Merfolk are already solid matchups.

The only other idea Ive been considering that hasnt been mentioned before is Firestorm. With an active Welder it could lead to some busted end of turn plays, and could deal with pesky confidants or lackeys pretty quickly.

Edit: How do I use card tags?

[GGoober]

I picked up all the cards for this deck, but just moved and unfortunately there is no local legacy community. Ive been goldfishing and have managed to get a few games in, but have been having a real issue testing the directions I want to take the deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Shah

4 Goblin Welder
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Lodstone Golem
1 Spine of Ish Shah
2 Mindslaver

My initial change to the deck was taking out the Tops for Serum Powder. The obvious main issue with the deck is mulligans, the powders were excellent at making sure the deck had a good hand to start, but still did nothing to address blanking on a top deck. My next thought is Mikokoro, Ive yet to actually test with it, but it helps with the 3 Mox Diamonds, and used at the end of an opponents turn minimizes the downside of giving an extra card. All of my playtesting and everytime Ive seen the deck played makes me think Spine is necessary MD. This deck is just dead to an ensnaring bridge or humility, and having a tutorable 1 of to make every match winable seems like the safe call. The sideboard should be pretty self explanatory, Mindslaver lock is the only way I see this deck winning against a deck like High Tide, and should help with tougher matchups like CounterTop and Team America. And Im running SoFaF right now for the pro colors. All the best decks right now run green creatures, and decks like Goblins and Merfolk are already solid matchups.

The only other idea Ive been considering that hasnt been mentioned before is Firestorm. With an active Welder it could lead to some busted end of turn plays, and could deal with pesky confidants or lackeys pretty quickly.

Edit: How do I use card tags?

Firestorm with an active Welder is cute but still bad. Without a Welder, it's worse than a dead card (costing you heavy card disadvantage). With a Welder when you are declaring X to hit X targets, your opponent can bolt their own creatures, forcing you to possibly target one of your own creatures.

To use card tags, type {cards} CARD {/cards} replacing "{ }" with "[ ]"

[KnightElite]

Firestorm with an active Welder is cute but still bad. Without a Welder, it's worse than a dead card (costing you heavy card disadvantage). With a Welder when you are declaring X to hit X targets, your opponent can bolt their own creatures, forcing you to possibly target one of your own creatures.

This isn't correct, as all targets are declared when the spell is cast. If he bolts his own guys, then he's just wasting cards. On a multitarget spell, such as Firestorm, as long as some of the targets are still legal at spell resolution, the spell still resolves, he can't counter it unless he kills every target on the board (and makes himself untargettable, if you're hitting him directly as well), in which case it doesn't really matter since mission accomplished anyway.

But yeah, this is definitely a card that seems amazing with Goblin Welder, but fairly mediocre otherwise. Fact or Fiction has been incredibly amazing for me so far, and I would recommend trying it out (super amazing with Welder active).

[sanin]

Firestorm with an active Welder is cute but still bad. Without a Welder, it's worse than a dead card (costing you heavy card disadvantage). With a Welder when you are declaring X to hit X targets, your opponent can bolt their own creatures, forcing you to possibly target one of your own creatures.

To use card tags, type {cards} CARD {/cards} replacing "{ }" with "[ ]"

Admittedly I have done no testing with it, so this is just theory, but Firestorming an extra land in hand with an active Crucible would negate the card disadvantage too. Im also not sure about just how valuable card advantage actually is with this deck. 2/3 of the deck does nothing, its just highly redundant mana and utility. Unlike traditional blue decks where youre digging for answers, this deck just needs to stick a robot and bash. What Im trying to say is that a tinker effect is 10 times more valuable for this deck than drawing multiple random cards. Fact or Fiction does that, but requires atleast 1 academy ruins, so a slight reworking of the manabase. Ill give it a try, but it looks like the current consensus is that running blue means you have to cut wastelands, is a non artifact draw spell, that requires a slight build around, really worth loosing wastelock? Just drawing it up quick I would test FoF with something like below, Im pretty sure the deck wants to start every pile with Welder and Ruins to guarantee that you get the cards youre tutoring for


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Shah
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Goblin Welder
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Inkwell Leviathan

[KnightElite]

NukeMoose and I both ran 20 lands, with 4x Wasteland + 4x Seat of the Synod, but we both cut Crubible of Worlds, so wastelock is lost (though you can FoF into more). I think the extra card selection is worth it, but the list is very tight and it's hard to fit everything you want into the deck.

[sanin]

Ok, I just looked back at your list and it looks like I was thinking pretty much the same way you are. My concern looking at the way youve built the deck is cutting down to just 6 win conditions, and I realize theyre more tutorable, but wont decks with Swords become a major issue?

[Aznopium]

NukeMoose and I both ran 20 lands, with 4x Wasteland + 4x Seat of the Synod, but we both cut Crubible of Worlds, so wastelock is lost (though you can FoF into more). I think the extra card selection is worth it, but the list is very tight and it's hard to fit everything you want into the deck.

I really like the Fact or Fiction as a possible improvement for the deck. I am gonna playtest them with them in.

[KnightElite]

Ok, I just looked back at your list and it looks like I was thinking pretty much the same way you are. My concern looking at the way youve built the deck is cutting down to just 6 win conditions, and I realize theyre more tutorable, but wont decks with Swords become a major issue?

I can't say for sure, since at the event I didn't play against any Swords to Plowshares decks this time around, though I did do some testing vs. Junk (4 games, pre-sideboard only) and I basically annihilated him every game, but I think the deck might have been running a little above average in those games (first turn welder in 3 games, with 2nd or third turn Fact or Fiction). More testing might be required here, since without Lodestone Golem you do lose several win conditions.

[RexFTW]

Creatures are usually threats not win conditions. Just sayin.

[manugl84]

Hi all:

I´ve been playing this list in a couple of small shop tournaments with nice results (4-0 and 3-1). I play without blue, and been very satisfied with it.

4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves - I´ve add the 3rd greaves instead of a diamond to have more chances of a hasty worker on 2nd turn.
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel colossus - Really, really powerfull. I´ve killed 3 times on 2nd turn with him. Maybe overkill, but actually very good.
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Darksteel citadel - I´ve been very happy changing the crucibles for these ones



Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 tormod´s crypt - Tutorable answer vs the few dredge I see here in Spain.
1 Platinum emperion - It´s almost gg against merfolks, goblins and random stuff
3 Thorn of amethyst
1 Duplicant
1 Spine of ish sah
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Not sure about changing the tormod´s and the emperion for 2 SoFI, which are insane vs aggro. Thoughts?

[sanin]

Creatures are usually threats not win conditions. Just sayin.

Thanks for the symantics. Call them what you want, but this deck wins with big robots, try decking them if youd like, but Ill rely on Wurmcoil and Battlesphere as my win conditions.

Has anyone tested Crystal Ball? Im testing it as a 2 of as the main card engine, and with a key the card quality it generates is nuts. For 2 mana you can top the top 4 cards of your library, and if theyre dead cards you can put them on the bottom and do it again next turn.

[Fatal]

Sensei (with Key) >> Crystal Ball (with Key)

for 3 mana u have draw a card from sensei, from crystal u have scry 2..

[sanin]

I understand what youre saying, and ultimately Top is probably better than Crystal Ball, but far too often I goto top and find 3 useless cards, where drawing an extra one of them is less than useless.

[Final Fortune]

It's kind of old school, but Grafted Skullcap seems better than Crystal Ball or Sensei's Divining Top.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think you should replace Top, Top has been really important for having T1 plays between Forge, Top go or Tomb, Top, activate Top go and supporting Mox Opal, it makes a lot of openning hands keepable and synergizes with Key(s) nicely. I really underrated the card when I started playing the deck, but it really does a lot to pull the deck together and keep it in the game.

[kingtk3]

Hi to all, here's the list i'm testing:


// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [MI] Crystal Vein
3 [RAV] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [UD] Metalworker
2 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [DDE] Lightning Greaves
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [US] Voltaic Key
2 [US] Temporal Aperture
1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARC] Duplicant
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [MBS] Crush
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst


As you can see, I stick to monoR for consistency and to optimize the value of metalworker. Moreover, with 12 red sources in the deck I seldom get color screwed and I can afford to play Crush in SB to deal with Null Rod and Ensnaring Bridge; also mountains are basic that can be fetched in case of Path to Exile.
I also added, as someone suggested past in the topic, 2 Temporal Aperture and I have to say it's really good: for 5 you draw AND play one card, which is sweet with so many high CMC.
The card I fear the most is Humility which can be removed only by Spine but without the option of it being tinkered. My plan in this case would be to prevent Humilty from hitting play with lodestone, thorns and sundering, but maybe ward of bones could find a spot in the SB.

A question: against what deck you would side in the revokers and what would you take out?

Greetings.

[KnightElite]

I would definitely side in the revokers against any deck with annoying activated abilities, and what gets taken out depends on the matchup. Against Counter-Top Thopter-Foundry, I would likely board in 4x Chalice of the Void and 4x Phyrexian Revoker and take out some one drops and probably a couple Wurmcoild Engine. You want to name Sensei's Divining Top or Thopter-Foundry against them, and generally you want to set chalice at 1.

Against Elves, I would probably board in the same, and board out similarly, except leaving in Wurmcoil (Steel Hellkite is the nuts against them, Wurmcoil is pretty good). Depending on your list, you could board in Revoker vs. Time Spiral combo to name Mind over Matter and Candelabra of Tawnos (those are the only two targets). Against the Junk decks that run Mangara of Corondor/Karakas combo, you should probably bring in revoker to name Mangara, and it can also name Pernicious Deeds. If you want to you can bring it in vs. Aether Vial decks, but I don't think that's worth it most of the time, but again it will depend on if your opponent has a bunch of sweet activated abilities.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I really like the theory behind this deck. It's been a month since this thread's been posted on. I'm hoping to restart some discussion.

I believe the Blue Prison (Stax-ish) build is superior here, but I've come up with 2 builds:

Blue Prison Version:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Trinisphere
3x Intuition/Thirst for Knowledge/Fact or Fiction/Master of Etherium
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan

4x Mox Diamond
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Mox Opal/Crystal Vein
2x Academy Ruins

This version runs a Stax like core with 3sphere, Crucibles, CotV and Tanglewire (a personal favorite)

Red Welder version:

4x Goblin Welder
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Grim Monolith
3x Voltaic Key
3x Lightning Greaves
2x Duplicant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan

4x Mox Diamond
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Great Furnace
2x Mox Opal/Crystal Vein

I haven't tested this build at all. I don't even own Welders currently, but I'm looking to get some soon. I would love to run U and R so I can use Intuition (which IMO is far superior to running Thirst for Knowledge with Welder), but I'm skeptical about running two colors.

Comments, criticism and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[VikTheSlick]

Hello all, I'm new to these boards but a regular on MTG Salvation (same screen name). I've been testing and tweaking various versions of this deck and have found some of the ideas here fairly interesting, especially the idea of running Fact or Fiction to fix the draw/mulligan issue a bit and abuse Welder more. However, after testing against various blue-based decks, I found that A) I usually wanted the threat of Golem a lot more as well as B) the fact that he screws with their math quite a bit is very key. For example, it makes Daze a much much weaker card once in play which I find critically important to that matchup - Daze is their best tempo spell against us since Stifle doesn't do all that much except buy them a turn at best. I went back to a Golem build w/o Top and Crucible and heavier silver bullets, here is my current list:


4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Great Furnace
2x Darksteel Citadel
1x Crystal Vein
4x Goblin Welder
3x Mox Diamond
2x Mox Opal
3x Lightning Greaves
4x Voltaic Key
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Grim Monolith
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Myr Battlesphere
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan


SB:

4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Duplicant
1x Platinum Angel
1x Mindslaver


As much as I love SDT (and I'm a Counterbalance player from WAY back as well as a former Enduring Ideal player and heavy EDH'er), after testing over 100 matches against the common gauntlet I really didn't want it most of the time. Yes, it is a cheap card with an amazing effect and can smooth out draws, and it combos with Voltiac Key for card drawing + general cheatery, but often I was just using it to dig out more land to deploy my actual threats. That was in the 16 land version of the deck. Going up to 19 lands has been huge for me and allows me to keep 3x Mox Diamond maindeck for consistently explosive draws. Opal I like slightly less, which is why I have the 2x instead of 3x of them. I've had too many games where the Opal was dead T1 but if it was a Mox Diamond I win immediately or at the very least put enormous pressure on my opponent. If you feel you must have Top in the deck, you could easily cut a Darksteel Citadel and Lightning Greaves for 2x Top. However Greaves is a card I always want as pretty much any hand consisting of Metalworker or Forgemaster + a Greaves is nearly an instant win. As far as Crucible goes, it's a nice effect but often win more; I love Wasteland lock but often I don't need it as the deck tends to either win or lose within the first 3 turns of the game.

One thing I like about my current build is that it allows me to win the game early as well as in the long run via Spine of Ish Sah recursion, which is really key. I am in a pretty fully formed meta, so I see irritating cards like Humility, Moat, and especially Ensnaring Bridge quite often. There are also times where you really just need to kill something right away. Spine maindeck solves that issue. I also have a Blightsteel main and am a HUGE advocate of this. It allows you to steal wins with the second turn (or first turn!) nut draw, where you have like a trillion mana, a Forgemaster, Metalworker and Greaves out.

I'm pretty happy with my board as well, although I want that Ward of Bones card for sure in there somewhere (sick tech). Otherwise, any comments or suggestions would be much appreciated - and I am especially curious about those of you using the FoF version and what your results have been minus those Lodestones. In general I think the less colored cards, the better, as it makes Metalworker weaker and you really don't want that. Still, I can see an argument being made in favor of adding blue for card draw or Master of Etherium for sure. What do you all think?

[xMethodicalx]

Aggro Based:

Mana:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
3x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal


Artifcats:
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Voltaic Key
4x Metal Worker
4x Grim Monolith
4x Goblin Welder
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the void
1x Sundering Titan
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Magister Sphinx

Win Condition? kuldotha into sundering titan first, (1 land destro move) untap (votltaic key most likely), kuldotha into Sharuum, sacking sundering titan in the process. (2x land destro move) sharuum enters play bring back sundering titan (3x land destro move) next turn attack, kuldotha sacks sundering (4x land destro move) fetch Magister Sphinx or w/e. you get the point, 4x land destro that easily. uncounterable, seems good on paper. One downfall, I feel like it needs a draw combo, such as SDT but not sure what i should drop for that... (I am aware I do not have a sideboard)

[Lammina]

Aggro Based:

Mana:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
3x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal


Artifcats:
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Voltaic Key
4x Metal Worker
4x Grim Monolith
4x Goblin Welder
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the void
1x Sundering Titan
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Magister Sphinx

Win Condition? kuldotha into sundering titan first, (1 land destro move) untap (votltaic key most likely), kuldotha into Sharuum, sacking sundering titan in the process. (2x land destro move) sharuum enters play bring back sundering titan (3x land destro move) next turn attack, kuldotha sacks sundering (4x land destro move) fetch Magister Sphinx or w/e. you get the point, 4x land destro that easily. uncounterable, seems good on paper. One downfall, I feel like it needs a draw combo, such as SDT but not sure what i should drop for that... (I am aware I do not have a sideboard)

I really like the sphinxs, but, in this deck (this version), if they came in your hand or in the late game you topdeck one of these creatures, are 1-2 dead cards, because u cannot hardcast them.


Cyah,

Lammina

[xMethodicalx]

true, I also have 3 Mox Diamonds and 3 Mox Opals, which could help bring it out if needed. Besides, it is still an artifact that can help out Metalworker, and maybe your playing against a discard deck and goblin welder into Magister Sphinx second turn? :D

Instead of Magister Sphinx, I would probably add Sphinx of the Steel Wind or Sphinx Summoner. Mainly because I feel like the lifelink from Steel Wind would be necessary due to lands and early beatings. Sphinx Summoner would be real nice to fetch anything you need, Kuldotha, Metalworker, Wurmcoil etc.

[KnightElite]

xMethodicalx, how much have you playtested your build? I regularly found that the manabase configuration you're using was often not enough, and I would try and jam a couple more land in there somewhere.

[xMethodicalx]

Agreed, I haven't played this exact one, but I have played a similar one with the same amount of lands. Only time I felt like I was low on mana was when my opponent used wasteland on me, other than that, I was fairly well off, mainly due to Metalworker. If perchance he used removal, then I would have been down right screwed.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

This is the list I am going to begin testing.

4x Goblin Welder
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Grim Monolith
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Voltaic Key
3x Lightning Greaves
2x Myr Battlesphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Spine of Ish Sah

4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Great Furnace
3x Mox Opal
3x Mox Diamond


What do you guys think the best combination for the Moxen is? 4 Diamond, 2 Opal? 3 and 3? Opal scares me because it's legendary, but at the same time, I don't have to pitch a land.

Has anyone played with Crystal Vein and liked it?

[NukeMoose]

This is the list I am going to begin testing.

4x Goblin Welder
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Grim Monolith
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Voltaic Key
3x Lightning Greaves
2x Myr Battlesphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Spine of Ish Sah

4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Great Furnace
3x Mox Opal
3x Mox Diamond


What do you guys think the best combination for the Moxen is? 4 Diamond, 2 Opal? 3 and 3? Opal scares me because it's legendary, but at the same time, I don't have to pitch a land.

Has anyone played with Crystal Vein and liked it?

You definitely want 3 Opal. Extras can be sacced to Forgemaster or Welded away for something different. Mox D depends on your land count, and if you are only running 16 I would consider only running 2.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

You definitely want 3 Opal. Extras can be sacced to Forgemaster or Welded away for something different. Mox D depends on your land count, and if you are only running 16 I would consider only running 2.

All good points. Looks like I gotta trade for some Opals now. :(

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I would probably add Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Mainly because I feel like the lifelink from Steel Wind would be necessary due to lands and early beatings.

I believe there are better choices for that spot. Wurmcoil does what you need here, and better. Wurmcoil also has lifelink and can be cast when it's in your hand. Sphinx can't be cast at all, so it's dead in your hand. Sure the flying, pro green and pro red are nice, but what happens when your opponent Disenchants it. Then it's gone. Sure you can Welder it back in, but you'll just have one creature with 6 points of lifelink. On the other hand, with Wurmcoil, you get two 3/3 tokens on it's way out the door. This really helps to keep your tempo going. Then you Welder the Wurmcoil back in and you now have 3x creatures, 2 with deathtouch, 2 with lifelink (9 points instead of 6). See what I'm saying? I think it really comes down to personal preference. I'm sure 80% of the time, SotSW would be pretty cool in this deck. But I'm big on consistency and that other 20% turns me away. Let me know how it tests for you.


Also, you should put your Chalices in the SB and run 3x Lightning Greaves + 1x whatever.

[xMethodicalx]

-4 Chalice
+3 Lightning Greaves
+1 Steel Hellkite
-1 Magister Sphinx
+1 Lodestone Golem

[InResponseForceOfWill]

-4 Chalice
+3 Lightning Greaves
+1 Steel Hellkite
-1 Magister Sphinx
+1 Lodestone Golem

I was actually looking at your list and considered cutting my Lodestones to 3x. Maybe -1 Magister, +1x Myr Battlesphere.

2x Battlesphere is better than one. Play one, sac 2 of the tokens and Kuldotha Forgemaster to itself, get a second Battlesphere. Then you have 8 Myr in play, attach greaves, attack with one as a 4/7, then tap the other 7 myr, Opponent takes 18 damage.

You could even sac a Battlesphere with a Forgemaster instead of a Token, then Welder it back in and have 12 Myr, attack for 28 damage hehehe

[xMethodicalx]

It all makes sense now...

-1 Magister Sphinx
+1 Myr Battlesphere

[NukeMoose]

Can anyone give me results on Thousand Year Elixir vs Lightning Greaves?

The damnedest problem I have faced is not being able to use Metalworker/Welder because they get removed in response to the equip of LG. 1kYE fixes this problem. Although actual haste for attacking is nice, I think if we can actually cheat WCE or MBS into play we should be doing fine. Shroud is also very relevant as most decks can't handle a shrouded fatty, but the problem matchups I've had, it was hard to even get the monster out in the first place. Also, being able to use MW or Welder twice per turn (or more with Volt keys) makes up for the power differences between the two.

The main downside is the casting cost of 3 instead of 2. Perhaps even a 2/1 split one way or another would be optimal.

Has anyone tested both and can share their results?

[kkoie]

My only problem with Thousand Year Elixir is that it doesn't give shroud. Sure ppl will nuke a worker or welder in response to the equip... but the Shroud is really good! That and you are running 20-24 threats. So what if they nuke the first dude, you play another and equip to it.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

After some testing, I must say that when I sided in Phyrexian Revoker he was really really good. Off the top of my head, here's a brief list of cards he can target:

Aether Vial
Knight of the Reliquary
Noble Heirarch
Jace TMS
Elspeth
LED
Lotus Petal
Grindstone
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Gempalm Incinerator
Siege-Gang
Corralhelm Commander
Jitte
Cranial Plating
Grim Lavamancer
Qasali Pridemage
Sensei's Top
Vampire Hexmage

and a lot more. I may test him main board.

[xMethodicalx]

Phyrexian Revoker > Pithing Needle?
Revoker denies mana abilities it seems.

Opinions on Ichor Wellspring? essentially two mana draw two cards.

[KnightElite]

Phyrexian Revoker > Pithing Needle?
Revoker denies mana abilities it seems.

Opinions on Ichor Wellspring? essentially two mana draw two cards.

I agree that most of the time Revoker > Pithing Needle, with the exception of playing vs. 43 lands or something like that where you really need to deal with Maze of Ith. Lightning Greaves deals with that anyway though, and most of the rest of the lands aren't overly relevant to needle.

One of the drawbacks of cards like Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle in the maindeck is that they're kind of awful maindeck if they're your only early play, especially against an unknown opponent. Turn 1 Ancient Tomb into Phyrexian Revoker might be a fine play if you know your opponent is playing Aether Vial, but when you do that in the first game of the match, and they wind up being Time Spiral combo or whatever, it's not that great. That's the reason a lot of decks play these kinds of cards in the sideboard, and board them in against almost everything, but don't play them in the maindeck since having a play in that slot that is guaranteed to be useful is a lot better than one that may or may not be. Meddling Mage is another card which falls into a similar category, though obviously irrelevant to this deck.

Ichor Welspring seems like it could be decent, but it's only really good with Goblin Welder. Sure, it draws you a card when you sac it with Kuldotha Forgemaster, but if you're activating Forgemaster, you've almost certainly won the game anyway (at least this has been my experience), and drawing the extra card is rarely relevant.

[nodahero]

I have tested the Wellspring ALOT and it usually ends up being a win more at best.

[xMethodicalx]

I can agree with that, thanks.
Generally, does this deck stay away from equipments? Seems a little slow, but could be vital later on.

[Final Fortune]

If you're looking for Top alternatives, I think Scroll Rack gives the deck a lot of consistency.

[NukeMoose]

I can agree with that, thanks.
Generally, does this deck stay away from equipments? Seems a little slow, but could be vital later on.

Besides Lightning Greaves? Yes. Although the original list had SoFI in the SB.

[NukeMoose]

If you're looking for Top alternatives, I think Scroll Rack gives the deck a lot of consistency.

I'm pretty skeptical of that. Scroll Rack is a about the worst topdeck of SDT/Crystal Ball/Temp Aperture/FoF/TfK whatever CA engine you want. It has no synergy with top or anything else in the deck, and does not produce CA, only card selection.

I can see it helping out a little during the early game, but putting in another hit/miss card is not a way to add overall consistency to the deck. SDT is cheaper, can be activated easily turn 1, and gets better over time with key and I was still not impressed with it. SR can come down turn 1, gets activated turn 2 and has little chance of being more useful than its first activation as you'll have less cards in hand as time goes by.

[Final Fortune]

I'm pretty skeptical of that. Scroll Rack is a about the worst topdeck of SDT/Crystal Ball/Temp Aperture/FoF/TfK whatever CA engine you want. It has no synergy with top or anything else in the deck, and does not produce CA, only card selection.

I can see it helping out a little during the early game, but putting in another hit/miss card is not a way to add overall consistency to the deck. SDT is cheaper, can be activated easily turn 1, and gets better over time with key and I was still not impressed with it. SR can come down turn 1, gets activated turn 2 and has little chance of being more useful than its first activation as you'll have less cards in hand as time goes by.

That's fair, I didn't mean to imply Scroll Rack makes the deck consistent, but as far as adding consistency it falls pretty much in line with the other alternatives. I think in the end Top is probably the best bet, just because it's a 1 drop that activates Mox Opal and synergizes with Key.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Opinions on Ichor Wellspring? essentially two mana draw two cards.

Regarding Ichor Wellspring:

This is a deck that was recently posted in the New and Developmental forum. It abuses Esperzoa and different artifact cantrips like Ichor Wellspring. It looks really fun, I want to test it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20218-WELDERZOA-*Reloaded*