[Deck] Hive Mind

[death]

I’ve always been the aggro player in Standard. But in legacy, I’ve dealt with combo: ANT, Doomsday, Dream Halls and Belcher. I pushed Emrakul into the UR SnT/Ponder/Sneak Attack shell you now know which before seemed unrealistic. I was also into UGB Deedstill before there was Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I have a Stax pet deck and recently, I tuned a High Tide deck.

But I’ve also wished somehow there is a combo deck that doesn't just lose to random hate: Counterbalance, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Pyrostatic Pillar, Thorn of Amethyst, Runed Halo, Swords to Plowshares, Zuran Orb, Pithing Needle and Null Rod. One that is resilent to virtually all forms of hate and still thrash Tribal decks consistently at the same time.

After some brainstorming I arrived to a conclusion that this deck may be the perfect metagame choice. Here’s the deck, my 2k11-tuned Hive Mind, a primer on TheSource:

Run-of-the-mill
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Bonkers
4 Show and Tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Compact Tutor Pkg.
1 Lim-Dul’s Vault
3 Intuition

Pacts to Victory!
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Summoner’s Pact
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation

Boost
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Hydroblast
2 Dispel

Turn 2 Kill vs Turn 1 Kill: Grim Monolith vs Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal opens the possibility of a turn 1 kill with Ancient Tomb + Show and Tell. With Grim Monolith on the other hand, it will always be on turn 2. However, because Grim Monolith nets 3, it can void out an opposing Spell Pierce, Daze or Cursecatcher. It is safe to assume that a turn 2 Island + Show and Tell with Monolith mana protection is the more favorable play in a blue-heavy environment than going for the throat with Lotus Petal.

Grim Monolith can be a one-sided Show and Tell here, it’s bonkers as it nets you 6 mana on turn 2: Turn 1 Ancient Tomb + Grim Monolith. Turn 2 Island + Hive Mind + Pact for the win.

1 Lim-Dul’s Vault, 3 Intuition
As a 1-of, Lim-Dul’s Vault still works wonders. Think of it as your 4th Emrakul, 5th Show and Tell and Hive Mind. It also finds the right Pact to set up the win the following turn. I will say it guarantees a broken play on turn 3. Intuition does the same thing although you'll need your 2-mana lands to do this. Against Wastelands, you may want to sandbag that Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors until you can Show and Tell and plop down an Emrakul or Hive Mind on the board.

Emrakul vs Progenitus
Simply put an unanswered Emrakul always spells GG. While a Progenitus on the board usually takes 2 or 3 turns to get there.

Why play this over Dream Halls, Sneak Attack, or any Show and Tell decks?
Dream Halls is card disadvantage, you always need a pitch card for Conflux aside from Force of Will.. A sneaked Progenitus doesn’t win the game also on the spot as the deck struggles to find another creature to win. Dream Halls and Sneak Attack are both vulnerable to Krosan Grip. In contrast, once Hive Mind resolves just can just play a Pact without passing priority, this leaves absolutely no room for an opponent to interact.

It is needless to say you can piggyback an opponent’s Show and Tell and drop Hive Mind. You can then play Pact on your turn followed by a win on his upkeep. With 4 Force of Will and 4 Pact of Negation doubling up as protection and win condition, you have enough firepower to win through enemy disruption.

[death]

1. Decklists

06/05/11 Thomas Ma Indianapolis-4th Place/Denver-1st Place
Blue cards
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

Bonkers
4 Show and Tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Pacts
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation

Lands
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
60 cards

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Engineered Explosives

5/28-5/29/11 Bryan Eleyet GP Providence-Finalist
Blue cards
3 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition

Bonkers
4 Show and Tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Pacts
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation

Lands
2 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Island
61 cards

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Force of Will
1 Mental Misstep


2. Card choices


MD
Mental Misstep, Force of Will- Slows down opponent and protects your combo.

Misdirection- The popularity of Hymn makes Misdirection a strong metagame choice.

Pacts- The blue pact helps give a free counter, and can also be used to win with Hive Mind out. The trick is to maintain priority after getting Hive Mind into play, then play a spell, then counter that spell with the blue pact. The red pact is the most difficult to pay for (who gets 5 mana these days?), and has the potential to create a blocker. Out of my 100+ matches, I’ve won a few games bashing with titans after my opponents have sided out their removal. The green pact is also difficult to pay for, but it may be changed for red/black pacts, depending on your meta. It is good against decks like MUD too, that might be able to generate 4R, but not 2GG. The black pact is the easiest to pay for. If your meta doesn’t have much black, this pact is amazing. Sometimes though, slaughter pact has been a dead card in my hand and I’ve wanted other pacts. I can see why they cut the black pact because usually if you’re using the pact for its ability to kill creatures, you’re already on the back foot and unlikely to win. The white pact is too situational and you can’t play it unless there is damage going to occur.

SB
Leyline of Sanctity- vs. Burn and decks with 8+ pieces of discard.
Mindbreak Trap- vs. Storm combo decks
Ravenous Trap- vs. Dredge/Lands, maybe Reanimator. The traps work really well with Intuitions and are the hardest to play around.
Llawan- vs. Merfolk

Other possible choices
Engineered Plague/Firespout/Pyroclasm- also used for the merfolk matchup, but in experience, they weren’t enough. engineered plague is nullified by lords, and Firespout doesn’t hit mutavault and a smart merfolk player will not over commit. Playing both is overkill, I think Llawan is better. On the other hand, merfolk is now playing dismember, so i’m not sure if Llawan is the right answer either.


3. Match ups


Merfolk- one of the worst match ups, but still quite winnable. Bryan Eleyet went 3-2 against Merfolk. I think this match up will become far more difficult as players learn to counter the right spells and how to use their pierces/dazes/cursecatchers. Against an expert Merfolk player, I’d put the match up at 65% in their favor. Keep close track of your life total and calculate when to counter lords (eg. how many turns you have left to live if that Lord of Atlantis resolves and can race your Emrakul).

Bant
A pretty even matchup, I’d say you’re favored 55%. They don’t have a super fast clock, so just pile up on the counter magic and try to get through.

NO Bant/RUG
This is significantly more difficult because of their Progenitus trump. RUG also plays blasts post board, so it makes that matchup quite difficult. Bryan ended up beating Reid Duke in the semis, but I think NO RUG is slightly favored (55%).

BUG decks
Another bad matchup, but not unwinnable. Hive Mind just can get some crazy nut draws like turn 2 kill with two counter backup that it can really win anything. I’d put it at 55% in their favor if they don’t have stifle and 60% if they do.

Junk/Team Italia
The hand disruption makes game one a toss up, but games two and three you should mull for Leyline (unless you have a good hand that can beat discard).

Aggro (GW, Affinity, Zoo etc.)
Aggro in general is easy. Play very tight and figure out when you need to Force of Will their creatures etc. having an intuition to combo out next turn doesn’t help when you’re on low life and they can just Disciple or Fireblast you out of the game. Ancient Tomb stacks the damage up too, so this is definitely not an auto-win. If you play it well though, it should be 65% in your favor.

MUD
This can be a scary match up. You need to have the hive mind kill on the spot because they have too many answers. Show and Telling into Forgemaster-Tinker into duplicant or spine for Emrakul really hurts. They also have Karn now, so if you play the Hive Mind with a blue pact expecting to win next turn, don’t be surprised if they drop a land and then resolve Karn. They can also often pay for the red/black pact too, which makes your green pact the best bet.

Dredge
Game one is a toss up, but I think Hive Mind is slightly more consistent. Post board should be significantly in your favor due to the traps.

TES/ANT
I’d say this is quite even, maybe slightly in our favor. Against TES, the traps sometimes don’t even help and they just silence/chant you.

Sneak and Show and NO Show
Very good matchups as your win condition is faster.


4. Featured Articles
Feature Article – Show and Tell Time with Hive Mind *2nd* (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/feature-article-show-and-tell-time-with-hive-mind-2nd/)

[Admiral_Arzar]

This looks hilarious, I'll look for updates. I would love to see Spell Pierce somewhere in the 75, otherwise looks great.

[ryO!]

nvm ^^
i still really prefer the DH version.
btw i top 8 a ~100 player legacy side event at gp paris last week
finished 5-8th ... lost to reanimators in the quarter finals (ioan on turn 2 G1 & G3 with back up) 4win 0loss 2id @ swiss (all the quarter finals winners split so no "legal" top 8)

two of my friends were playing a version like yours
one ended up 5-0 in the 302 players even but then 5-3 drop (9 rounds)
the other in another ~100 event did 5-2 (7 rounds) not far from top 8.

they were using a LED/Painter/Gstone/Sanctity Sideboard though.

btw DH is hardly vulnerable to krosan as it just buys them one turn and DH with Cflux resolved > stifle/daze/reb as you can cast all you pacts as once.
also since you play one volc why don't you play reb/pyroblast in the SB ?

[kinda]

The slaughter pact count should be upped, you can actually play that card (and it can be very relevant) and very few decks play black.

[death]

A second Slaughter Pact can hold value against an E. Canonist or a Knight of the Reliquary (inactive), where you can pact before Show and Telling an Emrakul or Hive Mind. Although this means you must have a Sea or fetchland ready and there's no opposing wasteland on the board. If your meta is not Force-heavy, the 4th pact of negation can be replaced with a second slaughter pact.

Regarding Spell Pierce, I see alot of lists playing it. But against which cards particularly? Against combo – there’s Mindbreak Trap and Leyline of Sanctity. Ditto for burn spells and discard effects. And against hate – well like I've said there's no specific hate that shuts down the deck. It can just switch from one win condition to the other. Eight cantrips and 4 Tutors lets you do this. I see no threat for Spell Pierce to deal with although I won't stop you from playing it.

The singleton Volcanic Island is not for consistently casting red blasts (Dispels on the side serve this purpose), but for those rare occasions when you may have to pay for your own red Pact and not lose. It's a Wasteland bait at the very least.

If you will host 2 mana-hungry combos: Dream Halls + Conflux + Hive Mind Mind + Pacts, the deck will mulligan like a nightmare. The odds of drawing the "ideal" hand are against you. Ever think of an opening like: Dream Halls + Pact of the Titan, or Hive Mind + Conflux, or Dream Halls + Conflux with no acceleration or tutor, aren't they terrible? Emrakul solves inconsistency issues, he's like combo rolled into one. Just drop him and swing and win.

[yaoser]

what is the current opinion on SnT/Academy Rector/Cabal Therapy as a back-up route to cheating Hive Mind to play (in the case where Hive Mind is not in your hand)? is it viable or too slow?

[mercc]

How does Pact of Negation work as win condition?
This deck wins by playing a pact spell after Hive mind, but when trying to resolve a hive mind, a pact of negation helps you protect it. But if it resolves, how does a PoN help you win if you don't have targets for it?

[android]

You can counter your other pacts? Not sure on whether the other players copy all spells regardless of whether they are countered or not. Play and comes into play are obviously different.

[Greenpoe]

You can counter your other pacts? Not sure on whether the other players copy all spells regardless of whether they are countered or not. Play and comes into play are obviously different.

If a pact get's countered, you don't have to pay. The pay-mana-or-lose clause is part of it's resolution. If Hive Mind is in play, and you say, play a Slaughter Pact and then Pact of Negation it, you're opponent will still have to pay 2UU and 2B, though.

[mercc]

If a pact get's countered, you don't have to pay. The pay-mana-or-lose clause is part of it's resolution. If Hive Mind is in play, and you say, play a Slaughter Pact and then Pact of Negation it, you're opponent will still have to pay 2UU and 2B, though.

I understand that. But the question is: when will pon work as win condition and not only as protection?

[keys]

Can't your opponent counter his own Slaughter Pact then?

[blaat]

I understand that. But the question is: when will pon work as win condition and not only as protection?

As far as I know it can only be a win condition if your opponent plays something after Hive Mind or you have a 2nd spell in hand that you can counter with your own pact of negation.
Because of this, Pact of the titan (or the green or white one) will always be the primary win condition, since it doesn't need a target.
Slaughter Pact and Pact of Negation have the obvious other roles in this deck, but can occasionally be a win condition.

[niknight]

I played this deck at GP Columbus, finishing 6-3 (I lost round 9 to Belcher after comboing out on turn 1 of game 3... on the play with Duress). Some advice for you:

1. You should be playing a 3/1 split of Lim-Dul/Intuition the other way. Lim-Dul's Vault is the most broken tutor in the format (in a deck like this, it's even better than Mystical). It's a multi-card Vampiric Tutor for as many life as you want to pay. Often times, you want to be searching for multiple cards at once which makes this better than Intuition.

2. We originally had Ponder in the deck, and replaced it with Top. This isn't a turn 1/ turn 2 deck, and Top allows you to effectively outdraw your opponent in the midgame.

3. We replaced Force of Will with Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize is much better against the combo decks (only Belcher will combo out turn 1 on the play in reality), and it gives you valuable information about when to go off.

4. The other major maindeck difference was the removal of Slaughter/Summoning Pact for 3 Duresses. You don't need Slaughter Pact game 1 against any deck except Dredge (only if they get Iona).

5. A card that you may want to consider for your sideboard is Boseiju. It lets you force through your Show and Tell without having to worry about your opponent's deck. It was absolutely amazing at the GP.

6. Your tribal matchups aren't as good as you think. You are a serious underdog to Merfolk (especially post-board), and you also lose to landfall Zoo that plays Price of Progress (remember that Hive Mind copies their spells also, so I hope you like taking 12 off your manabase on the upkeep you were supposed to win.) We managed to solve this problem by overloading on cheap removal (Ghastly Demise is really good).

7. Yes, you will lose to Stifle... no matter what you do. They can Stifle their triggered ability during upkeep (but you can't use your copy to counter your upkeep cost as it isn't on the stack), and they can use your Hive Mind against you if you decide to Force. Remember that using Pact of Negation on their upkeep doesn't require them to pay that turn.

@keys: If your opponent tries to Force their copy of a Pact, you also get a copy of their Force which you can use to counter their Force.

[death]

If a pact get's countered, you don't have to pay. The pay-mana-or-lose clause is part of it's resolution. If Hive Mind is in play, and you say, play a Slaughter Pact and then Pact of Negation it, you're opponent will still have to pay 2UU and 2B, though.

Once you cast a Pact of Negation, your opponent gets a copy on the stack, he may use it and target his copy of Slaughter Pact to just pay 3UU in order not to lose. That is obviously not a wise play against mono blue.


You should be playing a 3/1 split of Lim-Dul/Intuition the other way. Lim-Dul's Vault is the most broken tutor in the format (in a deck like this, it's even better than Mystical).

The 3/1 split of Intuition/Lim-Dul's Vault is not wrong. The manabase supports that configuration. With 2-mana lands, Intuitions are as fast as Lim-Dul's Vaults. If you are going to rely on LDV, I don't think you can build a stable (and fast) manabase in this kind of meta. You will sacrifice the speed 2-mana lands provide in favor of more black source. Having a single Island to play around and dropping a 2-mana land for Show and Tell/Intuition/Monolith seems more sound than losing life with LDV and speed once your lands get wasted.

[whienot]

Once you cast a Pact of Negation, your opponent gets a copy on the stack, he may use it and target his copy of Slaughter Pact to just pay 3UU in order not to lose. That is obviously not a wise play against mono blue.

Just respond to the Hive Mind trigger. Cast Slaughter Pact -> Hive Mind triggers -> maintain priority and cast Pact of Negation targeting your own Slaughter Pact. They will get their copy of PoN first and will only have the original PoN and Slaughter Pact as targets.

[AriLax]

Just respond to the Hive Mind trigger. Cast Slaughter Pact -> Hive Mind triggers -> maintain priority and cast Pact of Negation targeting your own Slaughter Pact. They will get their copy of PoN first and will only have the original PoN and Slaughter Pact as targets.

In Amsterdam Extended I always let the trigger resolve then waited for their first Pact copy to resolve first.

I've got a more combo oriented build of this in an article that I should send out soon, but I'll definitely mention this list and try it out a bit. The big things I noticed were I agree on points 1 and 3 niknight made.

[ryO!]

as it s been said the thoughtseize really help and LDV is the best tutor for this deck (i even replaced MT with it before it was banned).

the only out against stifle is playing the dream halls version to cast alll your pacts and/or casting amnesia/head games before going off but it's a bit janky.

with my list i hardly ever don't make top 8
last one i used was :
4-2 and hell yeah top ... 12 in a 52 men tour
losing to NLThresh (nothing i could have done) and SpiralTide (lost du to missplaying a LOT, but oh well...mulligan to 4 in g3 on the draw, i can go T3 but he ll got at his...)
#Main
3 Hive Mind
3 Dream Halls
4 Conflux
4 Fow
3 Thoughtseize
4 LDV
3 SDT
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Pact Of Titan
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Pact Of Negation
4 S&T
#Land
4 island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Usea
2 AT
3 CoT
#SB
4 leyline of sanctity
1 Hurkyll recall
1 Pact Of negation
3 extirpate
1 relic of progenitus
1 perish
1 natures ruins
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Diabolic Edict

i really want to make room the the aforementioned Boseiju in the SB as it s you best way againt tempo/control deck, and it also improve a lot your wost MU aka merfolk.
about the assumption about not needing Slaughter pact in the first game i am not sold. I mean i guess it's not mandatory i guess but yet can save some "lost" G1.
i d also like to add that extirpate is such a underestimated card, it s a BOMB against combo/dredge and some other MU in G2/3. I d even go back to 4.
About dispel, i use to play it in my very first list (before the MT ban) but most of the time i wish i had a spell pierce/duress.
Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage CAN be annoying especially Canonist in a G&T/Maverisck shell
vial it in resp of casting S&T / Play it with S&T, you win a turn and cast Krosan/activate Qasali for the win.


I understand that. But the question is: when will pon work as win condition and not only as protection?

i won many games simply by
Cast SnT/Hive Mind
cast top/Ponder/Bstorm/thoughseize
Pact It for the win

[death]

Grats to kylezj for making t3 with my 75 (almost) -1 Pact of the Titan +1 Slaughter Pact


Decklist: Constructed Legacy Event #2176506 on 03/21/2011 in Daily Events (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2176506)

[death]

Congrats to kylezj again for going 4-0 twice in the dailies (same list) and for the multiple 3-1s lol.



/hype

edit: I've seen a handful of Hive Mind lists around, but I stand by my build (3 Emrakul 3 Monolith 3 Intuition 1 Lim-Dul's Vault 4 Tomb 2 City) as the most superior.

[kylezj]

Thanks, the deck has been running well, I have been entertaining the idea of running some kind of hand disruption in the deck possibly. I also wouldn't mind looking for something better in sb against merfolk and tempo, Those seem to be the decks only sub par matchups.

[death]

Unless you are keeping sketchy hands, this deck should crush Merfolk with no mercy. Against tempo, you aren't utilizing the 2 Dispels from my sideboard ;-)

[dearleader]

Hooray, people are playing Hivemind now! I haven't been paying attention to Legacy for the past 5 months or so, but I remember playing a somewhat similar Dreamhalls/Hivemind deck back then, and it was decent to strong against everything except reanimator and maybe 40% against fish, depending on the build. I remember discussing that deck extensively with ryo! before.

Some comments:
- Pact of Negation is a win condition if you have any spare spell in hand. I played Hivemind with Top, and often i'd draw from my top during my upkeep so i can cast it for pact.
- If you're willing to fudge with the manabase a bit, then Duress or Thoughtseize are really good. In my experience, they've been better than FoW in most matchups except combo and (sometimes) countertop. They are really good against merfolk/thresh so you know how to play around stifle/daze effects when you combo off. You may also consider cutting 1 PoN for discard, if you've been finding yourself with too many extra PoN in matchups where they are useless. The necessity for FoW against combo is also questionable; most of the time, they're going to play around it anyways when they see you running blue, so snatching a card with discard can give you an edge.
- The usefulness of FoW/PoN/Discard varies depending on the metagame. I've found PoN to be amazing against fish and other blue based aggro-control, because it's so amazing in multiples, whereas the second FoW can want for a blue card. Of course, PoN is useless for forcing through an Emrakul, which is an equally viable strategy against Merfolk.
- I second ryo!'s comment about LDV being good in DreamPact, but I don't think they'd be that good in this deck, considering the minimal amount of black sources. At least, the mana base will need to be retooled a bit to accommodate more black spells. The best part about LDV is the fact that it can find you two pieces (combo pieces and/or protection) if you have another turn to set up, or if you are running Tops. It's worth testing.
- If you have time to set up, Top is amazing. It's good against any deck that runs discard, and it can find you multiple pieces through the course of a more drawn out game. It also has excellent synergy with LDV, turning an EOT LDV into 2 cards. With this, set up, I'm more willing to Vault for the best combination of cards if i know i'm going to win next turn.
- The deck I ran had a variety of 1 mana removal spells to board in for PoN against any non-blue aggro deck. I think we ran a combination of Chain of Vapor, Innocent Blood, and Ghastly Demise. I think the variety was due to the additional utility against reanimator and other Emrakul/Progenitus based decks back then. Even something like Chain of Vapor is pretty useful if it buys you a turns worth of tempo to find your combo. For example, Goblins with a first turn Lackey has a fair chance to race, but otherwise just straight up loses; even delaying that turn 1 lackey with a Chain of Vapor is enough to throw their tempo off. We built our version to be resilient against blue decks, while being closer to 50-60% against aggro pre-board, hence the removal spells in the SB.
- Have you considered running Chalice yourself? There's obvious problems with the cantrips, but it seems like this version of the deck can really abuse it against combo.

Just going by my experience with Dream Halls, the unbanning of Grim Monolith makes a pure Hivemind deck seem stronger. I can vouch for all the the advantages of playing this type of combo deck against control decks and hate. The biggest problem with Dreamhalls was getting UU to hardcast it when you really wanted to avoid wastelands and/or cast other spells (brainstorm, top, spell pierce, duress) in the same turn.
I don't mean to change the topic of discussion to a different deck, but I'd like to defend the Dreamhalls/Hivemind deck a bit by pointing out the advantage in not having to run a lot of extraneous pacts, so even considering the additional Conflux the deck still gets a few more slots. Conflux also solves the problem of multiple Cursecatcher, Daze, and Stifle ruining your day; you simply make them discard all their outs and then overwhelm them with pacts. It runs a lot smoother than it looks thanks to Vault, which really sets you up well.

[kylezj]

I changed the dispells to spell pierces in sideboard, They seem to be working, and Yea agaiinst tempo, i have been getting bad draws. The thing with fish, is they have all these counters and stuff and then cursecatcher is just the nuts for them, as they can counter their copy of a pact with it, so it can be annoying. If you were going to bring tops in what would you cut? What do you think death about the idea of tops instead of ponders?

[death]

The way I understand it is that, once they cast a counter targeting a copy of your pact, you get a copy of the counter too that can target the counter, your copy should resolve first so their copy of pact doesn't get countered and resolves.

Personally, I don't like tops in combo decks (except in Doomsday) because it's slow. You basically waste a turn to cast it, waste 1 mana to use it and it doesn't draw a card unless you put it back on top of the library (makes no sense). By then you would have to waste another turn for the dead draw and mana to recast it. The deck plays well with 8 cantrips and 4 real tutors which actually puts the pieces you want to your hand by turn 2. Hive Mind is designed to beat any deck by turn 2-3, it would lose if it wastes time doing it.

[kylezj]

With cursecatcher, all they do is sac it and counter there own spell, since its a creature, they just counter their copy of the pact, and pass the turn back and you have to pay for yours then.

[dearleader]

With cursecatcher, all they do is sac it and counter there own spell, since its a creature, they just counter their copy of the pact, and pass the turn back and you have to pay for yours then.

Daze also does the same thing if they have 1 mana open. I think the best plan against Merfolk is to just get Emrakul as fast as possible if you see 1 or more Cursecatchers.

[Scopeye]

I played against this deck mtgo and I have to say it was very impressive. It is very resiliant and emrakul adds a extra nice out to it.

Both times I t1 discarded hivemind but my opponent (sorry don't remember name) was able to recover quick and finish once with hivemind and once with emrakul.

[Griselpuff]

Hey can you give some tips on what types of hands to keep? I'm thinking about playing this deck. I've been testing it online and I've been fairly successful.

Also, what are the problem cards you have to play around? I was hit pretty hard by stifle and cotv at 0.

I was thinking about potentially siding in Boseiju or Hurkyl's Recall, opinions?

Finally, what kinds of hands do you keep? Anything that gets you one part of the combo (ie, show and tell + pacts, or hive mind + grim monolith, or something?)

[death]

Stifle is a pain, but Emrakul sidesteps it. You shouldn't lose to CotV at 0. Your pact gets countered but their copy sticks once Hive Mind's ability triggers so they still have to pay the upkeep cost or die.

You usually want to keep a hand with a win condition: Hive Mind + Monolith or SnT OR Emrakul + SnT or tutor. You can draw/cantrip/tutor a pact or acceleration and win once you have these pieces.

If you want Boseiju, it's your call but it will only get hit by a Wasteland. This deck already has 8 free counters to protect the combo, I wouldn't want a land that does nothing against non-blue decks.

[pandaman]

If a pact get's countered, you don't have to pay. The pay-mana-or-lose clause is part of it's resolution. If Hive Mind is in play, and you say, play a Slaughter Pact and then Pact of Negation it, you're opponent will still have to pay 2UU and 2B, though.

I'm a little confused about using Pacts as win conditions in this deck. Could regular Hive Mind players tell me if I'm right in the following scenario?

I cast Hive Mind in my main phase.

It resolves.

I retain priority.

I then cast Slaughter Pact. I retain priority.

The stack looks like:

TOP
Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind triggers. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

I then case Pact of Negation targeting my Slaughter Pact. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind triggers. I retain priority. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

I then pass priority. Hive Mind trigger resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Opponent's Pact of Negation (targeting for example my Pact of Negation)
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Opponent's Pact of Negation (targeting My Pact of Negation) resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind trigger resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Opponent's Slaughter Pact
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Opponent's Slaughter Pact resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

My Slaughter Pact resolves, stack is empty.

Opponent has to pay 2B next upkeep or lose. I have to pay 2B next upkeep or lose.

Is this correct?

[bracer028]

this deck sucks...

I was playing eva green yesterday on Cockatrice. A person by the screen name "Bug" played this deck. After I won 2-1, he said

"whatever, I guess this deck cannot beat a bad discard deck that cannot beat anyone".

[death]

Opponent has to pay 2B next upkeep or lose. I have to pay 2B next upkeep or lose.

Is this correct?


Well if he targeted your PoN, he will have to pay 2B + 3UU or lose before you worry about paying for Slaughter Pact on your upkeep.

[scrumdogg]

I'm a little confused about using Pacts as win conditions in this deck. Could regular Hive Mind players tell me if I'm right in the following scenario?

I cast Hive Mind in my main phase.

It resolves.

I retain priority.

I then cast Slaughter Pact. I retain priority.

The stack looks like:

TOP
Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind triggers. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

I then case Pact of Negation targeting my Slaughter Pact. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind triggers. I retain priority. I retain priority. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

I then pass priority. Hive Mind trigger resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Opponent's Pact of Negation (targeting for example my Pact of Negation)
My Pact of Negation (targeting My Slaughter Pact)
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Opponent's Pact of Negation (targeting My Pact of Negation) resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Hive Mind trigger
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Hive Mind trigger resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
Opponent's Slaughter Pact
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

Opponent's Slaughter Pact resolves. The stack looks like:

TOP
My Slaughter Pact
BOTTOM

My Slaughter Pact resolves, stack is empty.

Opponent has to pay 2B next upkeep or lose. I have to pay 2B next upkeep or lose.

Is this correct?

Nope :)
You cast your Slaughter Pact (or better yet Pact of the Titan...), let your opponent's trigger resolve BEFORE playing your Pact of Negation (but still in response to your initial Pact). That way your opponent can only PoN either of your Pacts (since a counter can't target itself). Now your opponent has 2 upkeep triggers requiring UU3 and B2 or some combination of all that mana and 1-2 Stifles :)

[Griselpuff]

Do you ever side out Emrakul? Such as against decks with KOTR and Karakas?

Actually, just a general question on siding. What do you take out? Ponders? Grim Monoliths?

[kylezj]

You never side out ponder in any matchup..At least I dont. Side out the emrakuls usually against karakas/ and or decks with edicts and such.

[Griselpuff]

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Plague

Kyle, can you give a detailed description of how you sideboard then? So far, I'm 15-5 with the deck and I just want to say it's super powerful.

This is what I've been doing:

vs. Burn/Discard
+4 Leylines

vs. Dredge
+3 Ravenous Trap

vs. ANT/TES/High Tide
+3 Mindbreak Trap

vs. Control with counters
+2 Spell Pierce

vs. Merfolk/Goblins/Elves/GW with Humans
+3 EP

First I side out the useless Pacts, and then usually Grim Monolith. What gets cut next? Lim-Dul's Vault/Intuition? Emrakul?

[AriLax]

There is a distinctly non-zero chance I play this deck in Providence. It gets significantly better simply because MM is likely to replace some amount of Dazes and Stifles across the field.

[Griselpuff]

What do you guys think about Chalice of the Void in the SB?

Could play Impulses instead to replace Brainstorm/Ponder. I feel like it's weak, but Stifle + Spell Pierce (Countering their own pacts) + REBs are really annoying. Innocent Blood too.

I don't think it's a good idea tbh since Brainstorm is so important. But what do we do then?

Perhaps the answer is discard. Thoughtseize and Duress in the board? I don't see what to cut though.

Also, what about pesky artifacts like Trinisphere and Canonist? Maybe have Hurkyl's Recall? Again, I don't know what to take out. I'm planning on playing this in a big tournament next week so any help would be appreciated. :)

[Griselpuff]

extirpate is also a big problem. too bad a lot of the last scg open had a ton of combo hate with cards like stifle and extirpate :(

can't wait for gitaxian probe and mental misstep!

[dearleader]

Cutting Brainstorm/Ponder to play Chalice is just bad. I can't imagine the type of confusion that would cause someone to try this.

Discard can help you check what answers your opponent has. Maybe they could replace Dispel in the side. Perhaps if you don't expect too much combo, you can cut some of the 7 anti-combo pieces from the side. It does have a drawback of forcing you to fetch dual lands in matchups where you want basics (Merfolk, Thresh, TA) and it also ties up cantrip/tutor mana, so it's probably not worth it.

The simple answer is this: against decks that pack a lot of answers to Pacts you need to find Emrakul and protect it. If you do have discard in the SB, then game 2 you can replace some Pact of Negation with discard, which helps the Hive Mind combo by getting rid of toublesome cards and is more live when you need to force through and protect an Emrakul. Putting discard in the SB instead of the main feels wrong for some reason, but I don't really know where they'd fit in the main. Maybe they can fit in over a few PoN, but PoN is really good against most other decks.

The other solution is to just gather up Pacts until you can punch through. Most of the time, you have more pacts and cantrips/tutors to find them than your opponent has answers, and if he is actually holding a lot of answers, chances are the clock will be pretty slow.

Is Canonist really that big of a threat? i mean, it delays your combo by one turn, but they'll still lose to a single Pact of the Titan, or even a summoner's pact. Trinisphere seems to be the same. I guess if they have Canonist + Daze it'll hurt, but i think that's true whenever your opponent has too many answers you can't deal with. If you're looking for answers, then Echoing Truth is better than Hurkyl's Recall against the field.

Extirpate is pretty narrow. It basically just counters Intuition. Your opponents probably won't even bring it in unless they saw Intuition game 1, and even then, your opponent probably has more relevant cards to board in.

[mrjumbo03]

@ Death, great work with the OP... Will you be expanding it to a full-on primer any time soon? Would love to read about the deck's matchups... Also, isn't 2 Slaughter Pacts-1 Summoner's Pact configuration better because Slaughter Pact at least has some utility? Oh another question, would running the deck without the 3 duals hit the deck hard? *Duals are crazy high right now* Thanks!

[Griselpuff]

I ended up going 4-2-1, losing to CounterTop and NO Rug. Should have been 5-2 since my ANT opponent played really slowly and I was one turn away from winning.

Anyways, I do feel like this deck might not be able to make it post New Phyrexia and with all the anti combo decks going around. Mental Misstep really hurts. I've tested Gitaxian Probe, and I decided that while on paper it sounds great, in practice it leaves something to be desired. I've been playing 4 probes and 2 ponders, cutting a land and a pact for the probes. we'll see how this goes.

[pandaman]

Nope :)
You cast your Slaughter Pact (or better yet Pact of the Titan...), let your opponent's trigger resolve BEFORE playing your Pact of Negation (but still in response to your initial Pact). That way your opponent can only PoN either of your Pacts (since a counter can't target itself). Now your opponent has 2 upkeep triggers requiring UU3 and B2 or some combination of all that mana and 1-2 Stifles :)

Thanks for your help chap, that's heaps better.

Also, to akatsuki, why does Mental Misstep hurt this deck? There's only 8 1 costing spells main, none of which if countered are fatal. Restrictive, yes, but fatal, no. Postboard you could bring in 5 spells, which again aren't fatal to you if countered. Is there something I'm not seeing?

[mrjumbo03]

I'm with Pandaman, I can't see how the release of NPH will weaken this deck. Actually it makes it even stronger by being immune to all of the Mental Missteps that will be floating around (something I can't say about my other combo deck, Spiral Tide T_T).

[Griselpuff]

Don't underestimate the power of Brainstorm/Ponder in a deck like this.

Although you guys are probably right, I was just tired and not thinking clearly when I was playing last night. What really hurts this deck are cheap counters (REB and Spell Pierce), and I just realized Mental Misstep counters both of them!#

Going to start testing Misstep in the side over the pierce. I never loved the Pierce because it meant I needed to have one extra mana to combo off and usually I ended up pitching it to fow to protect my combo since going off ASAP is ideal. When you have a fow and a pierce, but no other blue cards, you might as well go for it.

*edit*

Wow, I've just gone 6-0.



I even beat a Merfolk 2-1. To be fair, I got quite lucky the two games I won but still shows the raw power of the deck.

[ryO!]

btw anybody tried this Culling Scales
we play 0 permanent and can get it online turn 2
or is it too late already ?
i ll give it a try who knows ....

@akatsuki
would you prefer probe over thoughseize ?


grim monolith is a permanent.

i am playing the hivemind/dream halls list
so no permanent
but well it sucks hard anyway, test a bit ...

[mistercakes]

grim monolith is a permanent.

[addaro]

Hi,

Is the Grim Monolith crucial? That is the last card (3 cards) that I dont have. What would be the replacement if one can not get those before a tournament?

Thank you.

[death]

Lotus Petals.


GL

[mchainmail]

I'm testing this deck out, and the one thing I don't like at all is how much it cheats on land count. Is anyone playing more than just 18-19 lands? I'm playing Kylezj's list (I've lost to it in dailies far too much...) and am thinking about cutting the 2 Summoner's Pacts for 2 Islands or duals. I hate having to burn cantrips to find lands; I'd rather have lands and use them to find business spells.

[HAVE HEART]

I have been testing this deck a little bit. It is pretty ridiculous, especially because people are awful. I think if I was playing against LSV or PV every match with this deck, then I might have a different tune, but no one actually has to play that caliber of player at their local tournament (unless you suck at life and live in Northern Virginia).

With that out of the way, I was wondering what Intuition does that Lim-Dul's Vault does not? Intuition seems a little bit easier to cast, and gives the player a live draw off the top, but Lim-Dul's Vault costs less to cast, and allows much better manipulation with cantrips. They both seem pretty similar, and I cannot figure out why Intuition is preferred.

[death]

LDV is a poor top deck. It doesn't allow you to win on the spot with Hive Mind in play if you are in need of a pact to seal the game.

[HAVE HEART]

LDV is a poor top deck. It doesn't allow you to win on the spot with Hive Mind in play if you are in need of a pact to seal the game.

Are you supposed to drop Hive Mind before you have the win in hand? Seems a little greedy.

[Griselpuff]

Hey, so I've been playing this deck online and in real life, my record is currently 32-11-2. Definitely could be playing a bit tighter, this deck gets so many free wins that I just get careless sometimes.

My current list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [ZEN] Island (1a)
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Pact of the Titan
2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [M10] Hive Mind
3 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [NPH] Mental Misstep
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap

Any opinions on the following cards?

Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquisition/Cabal Therapy

Therapy goes nice with Probe.

I just never loved discard in this deck (not having tested it a ton, mind you), since usually a counter is just better because your deck is so much more powerful than almost anything out there.

Firespout > Engineered Plague because it slows down Zoo and Maverick decks (Fireblast Zoo is actually not a great matchup, you need to mull to a turn 3 win), and is effective when Merfolk have a lord out.

Junk is also not that great, even when you have Leyline. Why? Qasali Pridemage + Vindicate.

IMO, this deck has so much raw power, but is also quite draw dependent. I think Landstill will get more popular with the printing of Misstep, and I don't see a deck having tons of counters + JTMS be a good matchup.

I went 5-1-2 (actually 6-1-1 since my opp scooped) during the BOM trial and got 6th place out of 170+ (if I remember correctly). During the actual BOM, I scrubbed and went 2-4 (losing to 2 Junk, 1 MUD, 1 Fireblast Zoo). Could have played better, all matchups were definitely winnable.

[Griselpuff]

Another card I'm considering is REB. Oh and the other problem with discard is it makes you fetch your Underground Seas, when I'm perfectly happy playing basic Islands. I tried playing 4 Islands, but if Merfolk wastes your only Volcanic, your firespouts become useless.

I'm also considering Top as a 1 of. The problem is this deck is so tight that I needed to cut a Ponder. I think probe is pretty sweet in theory and often in practice since it tells you what plan to go for, but I've often found the life cost to hurt, so I try to avoid it when possible.

[Griselpuff]

cool i just went 5-0 in a magic league trial. it is magic-league, but im still happy :D

ive probably played well over 100 matches with this deck now.

[Griselpuff]

Pretty much the only thing I'm not happy about right now is the SB.

I'm going to test some cards (ideas I got from BOM sneak and show sbs)

Notably:

Misdirection and Divert (instead of Leyline, these function as counterspells and are even sweeter with against discard).
REB and Pyroblast

Basically, mulling for Leylines against discard is never fun, and missing really hurts.

Ravenous trap is no good against reanimator, so maybe I'll test faerie macabre

firespout/engineered plague just never seemed spectacular, whereas REB seems quite solid.

Missteps are there to counter pierce and pesky one mana spells, but if you only care about their counters, perhaps REB is better.

Mindbreak trap i'm fine with, although my record against TES is still fairly mediocre. Don't feel like devoting more space though.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I feel like this deck has a ton of potential, but I haven't heard about it too much, why is that? Can Mental Misstep make it any better?

[nayon]

I feel like this deck has a ton of potential, but I haven't heard about it too much, why is that? Can Mental Misstep make it any better?

Defeating Hymn decks like Junk and TA was really difficult in my testing. Especially TA, since they can back their Hymns with pressure and counterspells.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah, that's what Leyline of Sanctity is in for, but I don't like it. Testing Divert atm.

I'm testing Gitaxian Probe and Misstep over 2 Intuitions atm.

In theory, probe should be sweet since it tells you what kill to go for at the low cost of 2 life, but the problem is the deck also runs 4 Ancient Tombs, and I've found the life adding up to enough that it matters. Still not sure about cutting them though. I often side them out since they are filler, in a way.

Misstep seems sweet because it counters 1 mana counters, cursecatcher, and discard spells (except hymn). Still more testing needs to be done though.

In the last two tournaments I played it, I did really poorly (4-7). Part of that was due to tilt and misplays, and the decks I lost to were Fireblast Zoo, 2 Junk decks, 2 MUD decks, Merfolk, and Helm of Awakening Combo.

The other key issue is players are A LOT better in real life when they own their deck than online. The deck is definitely extremely powerful, but against a good opponent, it's pretty difficult to get a consistent early kill (unless you have the nuts, or if they don't have the right disruption, but good opponents always know how to disrupt).

[Griselpuff]

bryan eleyet just made top 8 of gp providence with this deck :)

he did -1 force, -1 lim dul's vault (i think), -1 volcanic island
+1 underground sea, +2 misdirection

still quite similar. i think we can move this to the established section soon, no?

^^

on another note i won a local tourny going undefeated. this deck is the real deal. buy your foil hive minds now!

[menace13]

bryan eleyet just made top 8 of gp providence with this deck :)

he did -1 force, -1 lim dul's vault (i think), -1 volcanic island
+1 underground sea, +2 misdirection

still quite similar. i think we can move this to the established section soon, no?

^^

on another note i won a local tourny going undefeated. this deck is the real deal. buy your foil hive minds now!

This is a good deck. It is also a top deck on MTGO. Move it to Established at least.

[Griselpuff]

aww he only got 2nd :(

can't wait until his list is posted, they posted the other 7 just to spite us

[pandaman]

The deck is out of the bag though. Great finish, 1100 odd people there. Probably not a lot of people expecting spells to be copied.

[KindGrind]

And the deck as a whole is pretty much Misstep-proof.

Too bad he's had truly godawful draws g3. The other deck couldn't do anything against an early S&T since he didn't play force. He had to pray for Teeg, which happened very late in that particular game.

[HAVE HEART]

Pretty sad even Owen Turtenwald did not know how to play against this deck. I thought he was one of the few pros that kept up on Legacy. This deck is pretty gnarly when the opponent does not know how to play against it, but I feel like if they know how and when to use their Cursecatcher, Spell Pierce and Daze, then they have a much bigger advantage.

[lordofthepit]

The "pay X at upkeep" effect from Pact of Negation/Pact of the Titan/etc. is a triggered ability (which can be stifled), correct?

If so, why do most people advocate (when playing against Hive Mind) that you use the ability on the Hive Mind trigger, rather on the actual payment trigger itself? It seems that the opponent could generally use a free 4/4 or the ability to search up a green creature.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Pretty sad even Owen Turtenwald did not know how to play against this deck. I thought he was one of the few pros that kept up on Legacy. This deck is pretty gnarly when the opponent does not know how to play against it, but I feel like if they know how and when to use their Cursecatcher, Spell Pierce and Daze, then they have a much bigger advantage.

Yeah I get the same feeling. This is one of those decks like Burn or old school painter servant (pre welder addition) that wins a lot of games on wtf factor and people not playtesting against it. I'll bet a lot of people saw show and tell and smiled dropping a Karakas into play only to get blown out by 4/4 giant token triggers of death.

[HokusSchmokus]

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event.php?e=1265&d=14087#14108

[Griselpuff]

thanks hokus! :)

i ended up winning another tournament today (w00t)

i like the cut of slaughter pact, it adds to the consistency. slaughter was the most situational and easiest to pay for (but also had a good deal of utility)

don't like the 61 cards, i'd cut a misstep. in the board, i'm not completely sold on llawan. i've been using REB, and that is also an answer to jace which is pretty sweet. on the other hand, REB forces the fetching of volcanic island and this deck is land light.

Ari probably regrets not testing this more ^^

[BryanEleyet]

Hey guys, I don't necessarily want to open up to a million questions about the deck. The best thing I can say is to play the deck, and that is the best way to learn how to play it. I just wanted to comment on a few things.



I didn't win any games on the swiss with opponents "happily dropping Karakas" etc. I had one game in one of my two losses in the swiss where I had to go off with one pact and he had a curse catcher, he thought about it for a bit, but finally targeted the pact.

Also, I didn't have a single player in the swiss attempt to counter a spell with a hive mind in play. Owen knew what was going on. But since the game was over anyways, he had no reason to not play the daze. I knew it was in his list because we looked at each others list before each match in the top 8.

I'll end by saying that the deck is very good. I got it from Kylezj, who I've been very good friends with for over 8 years. I saw him crushing MODO dailies. We thought about to the GP and if you look at the results, he stopped playing consistently in the dailies at least a good 3 weeks before the tournament. Mostly because I told him to stop to keep the hype down. And as you can see it paid off.

[Griselpuff]

Congrats Bryan!

I guess people should read these forums more closely. :)

I guess my only question is your opinion on the cutting of Slaughter Pact, and the inclusion of Llawan, and thoughts on REB/Divert/Misdirection, as those are the only cards I'm unsure of. Also, do you really think 4 Misstep is necessary? (and doesn't overdilute the combo?) It's great in slowing aggro decks down and countering spell pierce etc., but I guess I'm just scared of not finding the combo. I find myself playing against A LOT of extirpate, so I often side out intuition.

My overall record with the deck is 26-13-3, but if you exclude two tournaments where I brainfarted all over the place, my record is 22-6-3. The deck is really really strong (although some people complain that it's not "real magic", true in the sense there's no real combat, but it is magic in the sense that it's about fighting over the right resources and learning about the stack).

[Griselpuff]

Hmm... I thought a primer was needed for established decks? I'm no expert, but I have played over a hundred matches with it so I think I'm up for the task. :)

Should be done within a couple of hours if work doesn't get in the way. XD

Obviously, other people should definitely help edit it as I'm sure I'll be missing some things.

[Griselpuff]

If somebody could sticky this to the start of the thread, I think it would be a great resource for people picking up the deck.

1. Decklists

Bryan Eleyet- Finalist, GP Providence, 5/29/11
Creature [3]
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instant [24]
2 Misdirection
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
3 Intuition
3 Pact of the Titan
3 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
Sorcery [8]
4 Show and Tell
4 Ponder
Artifact [3]
3 Grim Monolith
Enchantment [4]
4 Hive Mind
Land [19]
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
61 cards

Sideboard:
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Force of Will
1 Mental Misstep
4 Leyline of Sanctity
15 cards

Kylejz, L0rd, and a few others have been playing the deck on MTGO as well. MTGO does not yet have NPH, so the difference for the "standard" list is
Maindeck
-2 Misdirection, -3 Mental Misstep, -1 Island, -1 Volcanic Island, +2 Underground Sea, +2 Slaughter Pact, +1 Force of Will, +1 Lim-Dul's Vault
SB
-3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, -1 Force of Will, -1 Mental Misstep, +3 Engineered Plague, +2 Spell Pierce

2. Card choices

(some of this was taken from the original deck designer and post, I'll delete those parts when this is put at the front of the thread)
Emrakul vs Progenitus
Simply put an unanswered Emrakul always spells GG. While a Progenitus on the board usually takes 2 or 3 turns to get there. Board these out when they play 4 KOTR + Karakas or pox (lots of sac creature effects). I used to keep these in occasionally if they weren’t seen game one, but I think now that the cat is out of the bag, they will know Emrakul is coming.
Misdirection
The popularity of Hymn makes Misdirection a strong metagame choice.
Pacts
The blue pact helps give a free counter, and can also be used to win with Hive Mind out. the trick is to maintain priority after getting Hive Mind into play, then play a spell, then counter that spell with the blue pact.
The red pact is the most difficult to pay for (who gets 5 mana these days?), and has the potential to create a blocker. Out of my 100+ matches, I’ve won a few games bashing with titans after my opponents have sided out their removal.
The green pact is also difficult to pay for, but it may be changed for red/black pacts, depending on your meta. It is good against decks like MUD too, that might be able to generate 4R, but not 2GG.
The black pact is the easiest to pay for. If your meta doesn’t have much black, this pact is amazing. Sometimes though, slaughter pact has been a dead card in my hand and I’ve wanted other pacts. I can see why they cut the black pact because usually if you’re using the pact for its ability to kill creatures, you’re already on the back foot and unlikely to win.
The white pact is too situational and you can’t play it unless there is damage going to occur.
Mental Misstep, Force of Will
Slows down opponent and protects your combo.
Brainstorm, Ponder, Intuition
Don’t sideboard out brainstorm or ponder, they are really key pieces for finding the combo. Perhaps against chalice decks on the draw, maybe take out a ponder or two, but even that I’m not sure of. Board out intuition if you suspect extirpate, or maybe surgical extraction. (although extraction can be countered, so maybe leave it in, just be VERY careful)
Here’s what OP said about Intuition/Lim Dul’s vault:
1 Lim-Dul’s Vault, 3 Intuition
As a 1-of, Lim-Dul’s Vault still works wonders. Think of it as your 4th Emrakul, 5th Show and Tell and Hive Mind. It also finds the right Pact to set up the win the following turn. I will say it guarantees a broken play on turn 3. Intuition does the same thing although you'll need your 2-mana lands to do this. Against Wastelands, you may want to sandbag that Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors until you can Show and Tell and plop down an Emrakul or Hive Mind on the board.
IMO, the problem with LDV is you need to fetch underground sea. The deck is very land light, and you want to fetch an island 99% of the time.
Show and Tell
The card of the deck, gets either Emrakul or Hive Mind into play for the win.
Grim Monolith
(from OP)
Turn 2 Kill vs Turn 1 Kill: Grim Monolith vs Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal opens the possibility of a turn 1 kill with Ancient Tomb + Show and Tell. With Grim Monolith on the other hand, it will always be on turn 2. However, because Grim Monolith nets 3, it can void out an opposing Spell Pierce, Daze or Cursecatcher. It is safe to assume that a turn 2 Island + Show and Tell with Monolith mana protection is the more favorable play in a blue-heavy environment than going for the throat with Lotus Petal.
Grim Monolith can be a one-sided Show and Tell here, it’s bonkers as it nets you 6 mana on turn 2: Turn 1 Ancient Tomb + Grim Monolith. Turn 2 Island + Hive Mind + Pact for the win.
Hive Mind
Win condition.
Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors
Leads to turn 2 kill, either via turn 1 Grim Monolith, turn 2 Hive Mind, or turn 2 show and tell hive mind/emrakul

SB
Llawan- vs. Merfolk
Mindbreak Trap- vs. Storm combo decks
Ravenous Trap- vs. Dredge/Lands, maybe reanimator.
The traps work really well with intuitions and are the hardest to play around.
Leyline of Sanctity- vs. Burn and decks with 8+ pieces of discard.
Other possible choices
Gitaxian Probe- I tested this, and ultimately decided it was not as it sounded. In theory, it makes your deck 56 cards, but the 2 life is painful against decks like Merfolk and Zoo. once you have enough experience, you’ll know how to play around stifle and daze etc. (use multiple pacts!)
REB- kills Jace which is a big big problem that answers emrakuls and screws your draws. Disadvantage is you need to fetch volcanic island. also useful as a counter and vs merfolk
Engineered Plague/firespout/pyroclasm- also used for the merfolk matchup, but in my experience, they weren’t enough. engineered plague is nullified by lords, and firespout doesn’t hit mutavault and a smart merfolk player will not over commit. Play both is overkill, I think Llawan is better. On the other hand, merfolk is now playing dismember, so i’m not sure if Llawan is the right answer either.
Divert- have not tested this enough. when it’s used against a Hymn, that pretty much spells game, but the problem is in the late game it can be quite dead and it can also be misstepped.

3. Match ups

Merfolk- one of the worser match ups, but still quite winnable. Bryan Eleyet went 3-2 against Merfolk. I think this match up will become far more difficult as players learn to counter the right spells and how to use their pierces/dazes/cursecatchers. Against an expert Merfolk player, I’d put the match up at 65% in their favor. Keep close track of your life total and calculate when to counter lords (eg how many turns you have left to live if that Lord of Atlantis resolves and can race your Emrakul).
BUG decks
Another bad matchup, but not unwinnable. Hive Mind just can get some crazy nut draws like turn 2 kill with two counter backup that it can really win anything. I’d put it at 55% in their favor if they don’t have stifle and 60% if they do.
Junk/Team Italia
The hand disruption makes game one a toss up, but games two and three you should mull for leyline (unless you have a good hand that can beat discard).
Bant
A pretty even matchup, I’d say you’re favored 55%. They don’t have a super fast clock, so just pile up on the counter magic and try to get through.
NO Bant/RUG
This is significantly more difficult because of their Progenitus trump. I once show and telled an Emrakul, and my opponent Lucas Blohon replied with a Progenitus and I was under ten life. Ouch. RUG also plays blasts post board, so it makes that matchup quite difficult. Bryan ended up beating Reid Duke (designer of NO RUG and alumni of my school!) in the semis, but I think NO RUG is slightly favored (55%).
MUD
This can be a scary match up. You need to have the hive mind kill on the spot because they have too many answers. Show and Telling into Forgemaster Tinker into duplicant or spine for Emrakul really hurts. They also have Karn now, so if you play the Hive Mind with a blue pact expecting to win next turn, don’t be surprised if they drop a land and then resolve karn. they can also often pay for the red/black pact too, which makes your green pact the best bet.
Dredge
Game one is a toss up, but I think Hive Mind is slightly more consistent. Post board should be significantly in your favor due to the traps.
Aggro (GW, Affinity, Zoo etc.)
Aggro in general is easy, but don’t get too cocky. Play very tight and figure out when you need to Force of Will their creatures etc. having an intuition to combo out next turn doesn’t help when you’re on low life and they can just Disciple or Fireblast you out of the game. Ancient Tomb stacks the damage up too, so this is definitely not an auto-win. If you play it well though, it should be 65% in your favor.
TES/ANT
I’d say this is quite even, maybe slightly in our favor. Against TES, the traps sometimes don’t even help and they just silence/chant you.
Sneak and Show and NO Show
Very good matchups as your win condition is faster.

[zpikduM]

Does Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy fit in here? Or is it too winmore?

[Griselpuff]

It plays two extra colors, so it's not good. I can't emphasize how important the ability to win with just basic Islands is.

I think this deck did well for a couple reasons:

1. The surprise factor, and the inexperience of other players. Even good players who understand the stack etc. etc. might counter the wrong spells. The only way to REALLY learn how to beat this deck is to play it.

2. Not very vulnerable to Wasteland or Mental Misstep

3. Ability to have nutdraws of turn 2 or 3 wins with multiple counter back up.

4. Ability to hardcast Emrakul and beat with 4/4s

[DragoFireheart]

Stifle, Trickbind, and Oblivion Ring are all problem cards for this deck. It's one of the reasons why I never like Show and Tell decks.

[menace13]

Oblivion Ring are all problem cards for this deck. It's one of the reasons why I never like Show and Tell decks.

O-Ring... Lol

Only time is if they have a read on you having Ermakul and know that is what you are going SnT.

[odabella]

...4. ... hardcast Emrakul ...

How often will this really happen; maybe against heavy contol?
I have no experience with it. ...

EDIT: Why is it so difficult to counter the right spells. Why doesn't it work to counter just the key spells SnT and Hive Mind?

[Richard Cheese]

O-Ring... Lol

Only time is if they have a read on you having Ermakul and know that is what you are going SnT.

Wait...why is it not effective against Hive Mind? Can you just pact in response to the O-ring trigger?

[menace13]

Wait...why is it not effective against Hive Mind? Can you just pact in response to the O-ring trigger?
Correct, O-Ring trigger on stack, play Pact and win on their upkeep.

[DragoFireheart]

Time to break out my Eon Hub's and Gitaxian Probes / Peeks.

:tongue:

[death]

Why is it so difficult to counter the right spells. Why doesn't it work to counter just the key spells SnT and Hive Mind?

The strength of this deck is that it doesn't fold to a random Force of Will. You are correct in that SnT is a key spell and if opponent lets it resolve, it's game over. But the deck has 9 other ways to put a Hive Mind in play (4 Tomb 3 Monolith 2 City). It can hardcast Hive Mind at will and if opponent doesn't have a 2nd FoW then it's scoop phase. Plus, the 8-12 free counters (FoW/PoN/MM/MisD) it can pack against permission decks gives it an upper hand. Mental Misstep is a great addition since it not only slows down Vial/Lackey etc. (hydroblast in sb obsolete) but it also blows Tseize/Duress/IoK/Spell Pierce/Red Blasts out of the water. The cantrips & Intuition can preemptively dig for counters. IF a key spell gets countered the deck can also recover through them making these spells key spells themselves. Intuition will blank out a Force of Will from the opponent if it gets countered or if used to fetch Pact of Negations.

Congrats to Bryan Eleyet for making it to the finals. About that keeping the hype down thing, it didn't work because when kyle stopped, 2 other people picked up the list and won repeatedly in the dailies. @mods, thanks for moving the thread in the Established Decks, this should have been posted here in the first place, lol. I will continue updating the first page but I'm not currently playing this deck. The deck is very competitive and I have it all foiled up but I don't get too much fun from playing it. If you are in it for the winnings, this deck is for you!

[menace13]

Time to break out my Eon Hub's

:tongue:
This is pure genius. And online SnT has a bug that was never fixed allowing the opponent to SEE the chosen card before they pick and reveal their answer.

[Azdraël]

Would it be possible to have the sideboard in /out plan in brief ,of you guys who are still playing it a lot please?

[Tacosnape]

Okay, I don't play this deck and never will, just because I loathe combo, but I have to know. Was there a reason people kept trying to Daze Pacts at the Grand Prix rather than just Dazing the Hive Mind itself?

[Davetradint]

Okay, I don't play this deck and never will, just because I loathe combo, but I have to know. Was there a reason people kept trying to Daze Pacts at the Grand Prix rather than just Dazing the Hive Mind itself?

Maybe they did'nt know how this works. It would be even more effective to Daze a copied Pact with 1 mana open, let them copy your Daze, pay for it with that 1 mana and avoid the upkeep death, then opp dies with their original Pact I guess...

[Tacosnape]

Maybe they did'nt know how this works. It would be even more effective to Daze a copied Pact with 1 mana open, let them copy your Daze, pay for it with that 1 mana and avoid the upkeep death, then opp dies with their original Pact I guess...

Or pays for it, or waits a turn. I'd rather just keep Hive Mind off the board.

[citanul]

They tried dazing their own copy that they got from the Hive Mind, opting not to pay the one so their Pact would get countered.

[Griselpuff]

The Hive Mind player also gets a copy of Daze, so the other player must have 1 mana open. Even if they do, the Hive Mind player can daze their original pact and avoid paying. So, Daze and Spell Pierce essentially "counter" a Pact.

[Tacosnape]

This still doesn't answer my question as to why, if your opponent was tapped out, you wouldn't just Daze/Pierce the Hive Mind.

[Azdraël]

Because it seems better to allow them to combo off, and then make them die at their upkeep.

[DragoFireheart]

Starcity is out of Eon Hubs.

:tongue:

[Griselpuff]

@Azdrael

That doesn't work, for the reason I just stated.

[dearleader]

@Tacosnape: I haven't read the coverage so I'm not sure if you're referring to a specific play. Yeah it's generally better for the opposing player to bottleneck the combo at Show and Tell and Hive Mind, but if the Hive Mind player can pay for Daze then it's obviously better to save the Daze for a Pact.

[DragoFireheart]

If you need something for after a SnT has resolved, you could always run Nix to Counter their Pact. Nix is also a hard counter for Force of Will. Spell Burst and Spell Blast also function in a similar way, though they don't counter FoW. These spells can't counter themselves ever under Hivemind. A control deck can merely run a bunch of enchantments to screw with Tentacle monster, like Oblivion Ring, and then run some of the counterspells I mentioned.

Nix hits all of their pacts and FoW. Nix can not counter nix. Spell Burst and Spell Blast can hit their Pacts and cheaper counters for an extra mana. Those spells can't counter themselves (when the opponent gets a copy, X = 0). These counterspells are also far less janky than crap like Eon Hub and can be used to counter other stuff.


To sum it up, here is how you could fight SnT Hive Mind:

1. Run Oblivion Rings (and Eon Hubs if you want to be bad ass) along with the counters I mentioned.
2. When they drop Hivemind, be sure to have nix, S-burst or s-blast to counter the pact copy you get. Choose Oblivion Ring as your card to drop. If you choose some other jank, you risk them dropping the giant tentacle monster instead.
3. Your opponent will be forced to counter their own pact, less they lose the game. Your opponent can not use MMS or FoW since your copy can copy theirs.
4. Your opponent is now down a Hive Mind and, more importantly, a SnT.

There are some issues with this route. If you don't have O-Ring in your hand and at least one of the counters I mentioned, don't let them resolve SnT!

After looking at hivemind lists, here are a list of spells the counters I mentioned can hit:
=====
Nix counters:

Pact of Negation
Pact of the Titan
Slaughter Pact
Summoner's Pact
Lotus Petal
Force of Will
Misdirection
Mental Misstep


(For MMS, MD and FoW, Nix only works if they did not pay the mana cost).

Spell Blast and Spell Burst can hit:
For 0 mana:

Pact of Negation
Pact of the Titan
Slaughter Pact
Summoner's Pact

For 1 mana:

Mental Misstep
Brainstorm
Ponder

=====

Nix looks like a better choice for running in the board. Between Daze, Spell Piece and Nix, you should have enough counters to fight their post-Hivemind pacts.

[Azdraël]

Well it seems like you write like O-Ring is a solution against Hive Mind.. You can answer the trigger ability of Oring with your pacts and kill your opponent. Same when they put a Clique.

[DragoFireheart]

Well it seems like you write like O-Ring is a solution against Hive Mind.. You can answer the trigger ability of Oring with your pacts and kill your opponent. Same when they put a Clique.

I'm not writing as the solution. It's simply safer to drop the O-Ring if you can't counter their SnT, have niche countermagic prepare post game, and beat them at their own game.

Did you not read my post? Go re-read my post.

[menace13]

GP report and Sideboard guide.

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/feature-article-show-and-tell-time-with-hive-mind-2nd/

[Kellyx]

This deck is extremely fragile to discard.
1 duress or hymn will cost you a game most time.

[bokwinkle]

That is just not true.

Show and tell is generally not at all a strategy that is suceptable to discard because it is a 2-card combo. Any 2 card combo is actually a very valid strategy to fight agaisnt discard, because if they don't take one combo piece with their discard spell then you just have to topdeck your other piece to win. So if I cast Duress and see a hand full of ponders/brainstorms/emerakrul's, then on his turn he just casts one of his draw spells into show and tell...I just loose. Also, brainstorm almost single-handedly destroys most targeting discard attempts (thoughtseize, duress, IoK, etc), and Mental Mistep absolutely hoses them as well. Basically if I cast my discard spell and they don't have Hive mind or Show and tell in their hand then I've basically wasted my discard spell and timewalked them.

I almost exclusively play discard as my primary form of disruption and I'll be the first to tell you that discard alone is not enough to disrupt ANY combo deck, much less a deck that runs mental mistep AND brainstorm.

Hymn is a valid disruption spell against many decks, but even the effectiveness of that is reduced by well placed brainstorms, and top deck stacking with ponder. Also, Hymn is much less common and more difficult to play since there are very few decks around that are willing to craft a mana base that will produce double black on turn 2. Generally a landed Hymn is very bad for most decks...but you can't really build the deck to hose Hymn since it's not all that common.

[Kellyx]

The deck has too many *dead* cards.Like pacts, snts when you dont have combo piece, monoliths and etc.
Sometimes you can start with a turn2-kill hand, but a single thoughtseize can literaly force you to pass turns untill you lose(3-4 turns will be enough to finish you most time, considering you dont have any form of deffense besides FoW).
Im just trying to say that this deck lacks some stability:S.Too often you have to rely on topdeck, while sitting with 5-6 dead cards and doing nothing.Got no idea how to fix it though.

[Griselpuff]

Kelly, play 10+ matches with the deck before you disparage it. It didn't get 2nd in an 1100+ tournament by losing to Thoughtseize.

Interesting thing I noticed, all of the cards were out since M11 (July 2010), other than Misstep, which doesn't help THAT much. I wonder what it would have been like in the Survival era. Probably would also get hit by hate like extirpate, but people play that nowadays too. :/

I guess something should be said for innovation. Death came up with his list (which the finalist GP list is 90-95% identical) in February of 2011. Major props!

[ScatmanX]

I wonder what it would have been like in the Survival era. Probably would also get hit by hate like extirpate, but people play that nowadays too. :/
Is Extirpate any good against this deck?
What hate-card could someone use that can't be Missteped?

[Griselpuff]

extirpate is PRETTY good against intuition. this deck only has 2 win conditions (3 if you count 4/4 red dudes)

[Kellyx]

Did anyone think about addind dazes?
And going something like 2-3 mms 2-3 FoW 2-3 dazes.
Games are prety short most time.IMO most time daze will be better than FoW here.

[zpikduM]

Thomas Ma just won SCG Denver piloting Hive Mind.

[Arsenal]

And going off through his opponent's double Force of Will was impressive.

[bokwinkle]

Is Extirpate any good against this deck?
What hate-card could someone use that can't be Missteped?

Generally, the fact that the deck runs intuition makes Extirpate better. However, just extirpate is not going to get you there - you still need a way to get their win-cons into the 'yard, and targeting discard (as previously discussed) doesn't neccesarilly get the job done...and you can't bank on them casting intuition for your sideboard hate to work. Extirpate is generally better against decks that use their yard to win (old survival, lands, reanimator, dredge, etc) and is lest valid against combo decks that don't neccesarilly use their yard, because you just can't count on getting a valid target.

There are better hate cards out there.

[sdematt]

And what would those cards be?

Notice how the two decks that won were fringe combo decks? I mean, much of the time, people in the tournament won't be prepared for a "fringe" combo deck, or something like Mono Red Burn, and I think that's what we saw here.

-Matt

[Koby]

And what would those cards be?

Notice how the two decks that won were fringe combo decks? I mean, much of the time, people in the tournament won't be prepared for a "fringe" combo deck, or something like Mono Red Burn, and I think that's what we saw here.

-Matt

Strictly speaking, Angel's Grace defeats this specific deck. However, this is a very narrow card otherwise. A multi-pronged approach with multiple angles of disruption is the way to beat such decks - and often I've found that just countering the filtering spells with Mental Misstep (such as Brainstorm) buys enough time for other hate to come online.

I do agree that these fringe decks aren't the best to devote sideboard space towards. Perhaps that what makes these decks good - their obscurity.

[lordofthepit]

Strictly speaking, Angel's Grace defeats this specific deck. However, this is a very narrow card otherwise.

So does Chronatog, plus it beats for 1 and can get dropped off Show and Tell! Watch it spike to $20!

[PanderAlexander]

And what would those cards be?

Notice how the two decks that won were fringe combo decks? I mean, much of the time, people in the tournament won't be prepared for a "fringe" combo deck, or something like Mono Red Burn, and I think that's what we saw here.

-Matt

+1

People just don't know how to play against the decks. That combined with both players, Thomas and Joe, being good players and knowing their decks well placed them in the finals. But I've seen a ton of mistakes like people not saving cursecatcher or daze(with one mana up) for their pact copies, or against Joe there was a player that didn't bring in any of his graveyard hate against Breakfast.

[Griselpuff]

Agreed, in the words of Tom: The scariest thing is a good Merfolk player. I can beat plenty of Merfolk players, but if I were playing Merfolk against this deck (after playing 100+ matches with Hive Mind), I'd put my win percentage at something like 70%. People just play sooooo badly against this deck, trying to be more aggressive than they should.

[Purgatory]

Agreed, in the words of Tom: The scariest thing is a good Merfolk player. I can beat plenty of Merfolk players, but if I were playing Merfolk against this deck (after playing 100+ matches with Hive Mind), I'd put my win percentage at something like 70%. People just play sooooo badly against this deck, trying to be more aggressive than they should.

I played against Hive Mind just yesterday for the first time, with Merfolk (been out of the game for a while) and have to +1 this. I first played against the deck in the swiss and won 2-1, and then I lost to the same pilot in the QFs, the first game I had to mull to five and then drew dead cards like Dismember (so nevermind about that one) but in the second one I clearly failed to put myself in the proper control role. I kept an opener of Mental Misstep, lands and plenty of lords and in my naivety and ignorance towards what Hive Mind can really do, I thought I could race him.

Naturally, I couldn't and since I tried to do the aggro bit and he was clearly faster than me, I lost. Lesson learned, I suppose :)

[sdematt]

So I just want to make sure I understand how the deck works.

They cast a pact, and it gives you a copy of the Pact as well, whatever it ends up being. Then, you also get the "You lose unless..." as well, correct?

This can be Stifled to help you not die?

-Matt

[Koby]

So I just want to make sure I understand how the deck works.

They cast a pact, and it gives you a copy of the Pact as well, whatever it ends up being. Then, you also get the "You lose unless..." as well, correct?

This can be Stifled to help you not die?

-Matt

Step 1 - Hive Mind in play.
Step 2 - Cast a non-targeted Pact (:g: or :r:).
Step 3 - Hive Mind triggers, copying and placing on the stack a copy for you (including the delay cost).
Step 4 - Your copy resolves first and does its thing.
Step 5 - Their copy resolves and does its thing.
Step 6 - Turn is passed.
Step 7 - Your copy of Pact triggers the delay cost. You must pay <cost> or lose the game.

So, yes Stifle can be applied to counter the delay-cost. Hive Mind will also copy this effect, but as the only valid target is your delay-cost trigger, it will be forced to counter it as well. Hence, Stifle is a valid answer to Hive Mind... even if your opponent has a blue Pact to counter your Stifle.

It becomes harder if your opponent casts 2 or more pacts on their turn however.

[Taylor]

Hey,

when playing against Hive Mind, is it better to stifle the Hive Mind or the Pact trigger?

[Koby]

Pact trigger - you don't know until it's too late whether your opponent has more pacts in hand, so countering your payment is safer than trying to be proactive.

[Tacosnape]

In addition to Stifle, other functionally awesome cards to hate on this deck include:

1. Angel's Grace. Mass beating. Let them do shenanigans, untap, cast Angel's Grace during your upkeep. Waste their Volcanic Island if it's out there. Win.

2. Ethersworn Canonist. Gives you time to aim removal at Hive Mind, which will pretty much always resolve. But be wary of Pact of the Titan eating him if you send him into the red zone.

3. The entire "Wizard" creature type. U/W Wizards, time to step up. Every Wizard does something to this deck. Cursecatcher, Spellstutter Sprite, and Patron Wizard counter your Pact copies. Meddling Mage shuts down Show and Tell. Vendilion Clique disrupts their hand. Azorius Guildmage taps down Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Etc.

4. Multiple discard spells. But be ready to get Leyline of Sanctity off the board, fast.

That said, people who underestimate this combo are crazy. It's very hard to hate, and as it's rapidly proving, it absolutely crushes bad players who misuse their already limited disruptive resources.

[videogamer99]

So, is this deck playable with Shocklands? I got a budget and I think that it may be affordable with them.

[bokwinkle]

Fringe combo decks are tough - but the thing that really makes this deck tough is that it runs 2 separate combo's - Hive Mind AND Show and Tell. So you can't just board against one strategy. If you load your deck full of hive mind hate with things like stifle, daze, and cursecatchers then show and tell wrecks your day. If you load your deck full of things to deal with Emmy...well, then hive mind wrecks your day.

IMHO there are about 5 ways to really deal with combo:

Land destruction: The problem is that this approach won't always get you there, and often times it's downright useless unless you're running true land destruction cards (like sinkhole), and even then the land destruction may be more effective (against basics) but the destruction may be too slow. This is generally a good supporting approach, like Wastelands & Vindicates + something else - however, you shouldn't rule out cards like Tsunami or Choke.

Discard: Ok, so the problem with this approach is brainstorm, top, Ponder, and tutors just complete screw you up...plus mental misstep has taken a serious bite out of discard strategem. Besides, what do you make them discard, do you know enough about the deck to choose correctly? A landed LDV after a discard spell could mean the game is over anyway. This is another strategy that just can't get there on it's own...it needs help.

Countermagic: This is generally the way to go when dealing with random fringe decks...but what happens if they have more countermagic than you? What happens if they've simply planned for countermagic since it's the best and most common type of disruption? And what do you counter? 9 times out of 10, straight up countermagic will not beat a fringe combo deck if they deck has been tested and tuned at all, because this is what people test against. I almost never plan on countermagic beating anything.

Specific hate: Ok, random fringe doesn't have specific hate, that's what makes it fringe. When the deck stops being fringe and starts being mainstream the specific hate cards are found and brought into sideboards. Fortunately, combo (IMO) is the archetype most susceptable to a few hate cards, because they generally have to devote so much of their deck to their combo and finding their combo. I include lobotomy effects in this grouping (Extirpate, Lobotomy, Cranial extraction, Eradicate, quash, scour, sowing salt, splinter, Thought Hemorrhage, counterbore, haunting echoes, etc), and more traditional stuff like Identity Crisis and Time stop that works against some strategem but not all.

Tutor Hate: This, IMO, is the most effective and wide-reaching form of hate to deal with combo decks. Generally, combo decks require massive ammount of draw and tutor spells to make them work. Things like Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, Mindlock Orb, or even something janky like Shadow of Doubt might get there. Or you can just try and turn off the cheap draw with stuff like Chalice of the Void and Mental Misstep, which will probably be the most effective of all.

Ultimately though, what you include comes down to the space you have available, and if the cards are applicable to other decks - Sowing Salt is great against the fringe 12-post decks...but it isn't going to do much against pretty much anything else...lol. The good news is that Stoneforge mystic is pretty popular these days, so tutor hate is actually a pretty good plan against a lot of decks, as is chalice against many decks. But how much space do you have available to devote to these spots?

Personally, I run a black/white deck so I've been exploring a bunch of options, including specific hate cards to just plain tutor blocking...combined with stuff like land destruction and discard. Ultimately I just don't want cards in my deck (in games 2 and 3) that are absolutely useless and cannot interact with my opponent.

[Griselpuff]

Wow, I think taco and bokwinkle just listed every reason I've ever lost. Probably going to pick a new deck since everybody will know how to beat me now. XD

[BantFTW]

I think the problem of this deck is discard, then your fucked ofc^^
And otherwise I think the manabase is just not good enough, if you don't get things that give you 2 mana yougo off on turn 3/4, way to slow.

Counter isn't a real problem against us.
But I don't know anyone tested this and can tell me what are good and but matchups (prob the ones with counter and stuff), but tell me!

ty

[Kelm]

Ironic that this thread is filled with ways to defeat the deck and people dooming it as jank.

A fast clock (wins consistenly turn 2-4) paired with more hardcounters than what the rest of the field packs at the moment - this deck is the real deal. Just look how it has teared up Dailies on MODO with 3-1/4-0 every single day since Providence.

Anyway, back on topic.

Can someone who has played this more than i have, give som insight on the black splash? It seems strong with MD 1-2 Slaughter Pacts and 4 Engineered Plague in the SB, but is the weaker mana base worth it?

[Griselpuff]

Still flip flopping on that... Engineered Plague is not effective when they already have a lord out is the main problem. The red splash gives you Firespout, which is not effective against Mutavaults. I've seen some builds try both Plague and Firespout, that's pretty hardcore. I think at that point you become a control-combo deck, and dilute your combo enough that it's probably not worth it. I think an alternative to beating Merfolk is just relying on Misstep and REB which also answers Jace (a card I've beaten probably 10% of the games he's resolved, fateseal is really strong against 2 card combos).

So to answer your question, I think Engineered Plague is overrated. Slaughter Pact is probably a bit worse than it looks on paper (sometimes there are no targets and that can be frustrating. If you're using it as a Dark Banishing, you're already on the losing end).

Overall I think red is a bit better. It's not hard to do both, but probably not worth it either.

[bokwinkle]

Red gives you a shot to pay for Pact of the Titan, which probably makes it worth it all on it's own, but since red offers several cards that can answer the problem matches - including Pyroblast, Lightning bolt, pyroclasm effects, and firestorm - I've found red to be more beneficial.

My testing has been limited, but I've found that when I can find other ways to apply a clock to a deck that is trying to save it's diruption for my combo that they are forced to make plays that they don't want to do. It also turns some of your pacts from dead cards into win conditions, which is what this deck needs in some matches. If people change the face of their deck in games 2&3 because they think they have to be the control deck, and you start applying a clock with titans and direct damage they may not have the appropriate control cards available...for instance, they will probably board out all of their removal after game 1. Sometimes the titans just get there.

[Koby]

Ironic that this thread is filled with ways to defeat the deck and people dooming it as jank.

It's beneficial for both players of the deck to know what they can expect, as well as players against the deck, to see how to beat it. Both are valid discussion for the thread.


Can someone who has played this more than i have, give som insight on the black splash? It seems strong with MD 1-2 Slaughter Pacts and 4 Engineered Plague in the SB, but is the weaker mana base worth it?

From what I've seen on MTGO (and playing against the deck - 5-0 against the deck), the black splash is to address the Elves matchup - a deck that can, and often does, beat the Pact triggers with Birchlore Ranger. Even Show & Telling Emrakul isn't a good enough move, as Elves can cast their own, take the extra turn, and cast Emrakul again. Slaughter Pact is to address hate-bears on the combo turn.

The plan fails against decks with Wasteland, insomuch that it opens up a weaker draw to mana disruption - enough that decks with fast clocks will race the Show & Tell plan.

[menace13]

A fast clock (wins consistenly turn 2-4) paired with more hardcounters than what the rest of the field packs at the moment - this deck is the real deal. Just look how it has teared up Dailies on MODO with 3-1/4-0 every single day since Providence.

Has been winning on MODO months before the GP, at least 3 months maybe more.

[nayon]

So let's be meta here. How do we beat the answers? Angel's grace is the most absolute answer, Chalice @ 1 solves that. What else?

[Koby]

Teferi? LOL

[Griselpuff]

Those two answers don't really make work due to clunkyness. The best bet is Emrakul. Of course, if they are also running KotR + Karakas, you're going to be screwed. I'm glad the paper metagame hasn't evolved this far yet. XD

[Shawon]

Cross-posted from my post on Carsten Kotter's Hive Mind article: Eternal Europe – Deconstructing Hive Mind (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22152_Eternal_Europe_Deconstructing_Hive_Mind.html)


Have you given any thoughts on the new Commander counter, Flusterstorm?

I can confidently say that it's Hive Mind's best weapon out of its sideboard arsenal. It's strictly better than Mindbreak Trap and Spell Pierce, individually.

Lemme break it down:

1. It's still applicable towards Storm Combo and High Tide, even more so because, unlike Mindbreak Trap, you don't have to wait after they cast three spells to start countering, and even if you do wait, you're guaranteed to have at least four Flusterstorm on the stack (including the original card) that effectively can't be countered.

2. Against discard, it's strictly better than Spell Pierce. Against Deedstill, the only situations you want to counter Standstill or Jace TMS are when you need more time to set up your combo. This may be a relevant disadvantage but I think the advantage you gain from winning counter wars is too big to ignore.

3. Wins counter WARZ!! RAWR

4. Defeats your opponent's Flusterstorms, assuming you cast yours last.

I see no reason why the deck needs to run either Mindbreak Trap or Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm. Individually, Flusterstorm is better than both. The question is to take out either Mindbreak Trap or Spell Pierce to complement Flusterstorm.

Ironically, Flusterstorm is actually good tech AGAINST Hive Mind. If you cast Hive Mind or Show and Tell and then cast a Pact, your opponent casts a Flusterstorm creating two copies and giving you one copy. Since their Flusterstorms outnumber yours, he can counter his own Pact with no problem.

I think Mental Mistep should replace either Mindbreak Trap or Spell Pierce, against Turn 1 discard when you're going second. Discard really owns this deck. Losing a Show and Tell means either finding another one or waiting to hit six mana to cast Hive Mind, which you might not reach if those discard decks pack a strong clock, i.e. Stoneforge.

[Octopusman]

It's it true that the "pay x lose next turn" effects on pacts only exist if they resolve?

Seems like Chalice for 0 turns off the Hivemind wincon.

[PanderAlexander]

It's it true that the "pay x lose next turn" effects on pacts only exist if they resolve?

Seems like Chalice for 0 turns off the Hivemind wincon.

It doesn't, even though their copy of pact gets countered, Hive Mind still triggers and you still get your copy of pact you have to pay for, yours isn't countered by Chalice @ 0 because yours was never cast, it was put on the stack by the trigger.

[PunkRocker1134]

It's it true that the "pay x lose next turn" effects on pacts only exist if they resolve?

Seems like Chalice for 0 turns off the Hivemind wincon.

No, Hivemind puts the copy directly onto the stack, and thus Chalice doesn't counter your copy

[Octopusman]

It doesn't, even though their copy of pact gets countered, Hive Mind still triggers and you still get your copy of pact you have to pay for, yours isn't countered by Chalice @ 0 because yours was never cast, it was put on the stack by the trigger.


I should have rtfc. Thanks for giving me a straight answer that I already should have known due to replicate shenanigans through chalice.
Lol this deck is hilarious.

[NesretepNoj]

Played the deck tonight in a small local tournament (~18ish players) with minor success. This was my take on the deck:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Grim Monolith
4 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast

Some notes on the list
- Adding more fetches (8) and hence more blue sources, was done to mulligan less and make the brainstorms better.
- The sideboard should have been +3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, -2 Pyroblast -1 Misdirection, but I wasn't able to acquire them in time.
- So far I've found casting Pact of the Titan as an win condition very volatile and seldom possible. That's the reason for only running a single Volcanic. Mana base stability is much more important.

Result
Round One: URw Control (Lavamancer + Dreadnought/Stifle/Trickbind/Waste) 2-1
Round Two: BUG Vision Control 2-1
Round Three: Painted Stone 0-1
Round Four: Dream Halls Combo: 2-0

Lost to Painted Stone, because I miscounted his mana production ability (used Welder to use LED twice in order to pay for three pacts in all three colours). It was a long game one and he was able to disrupt my combo long enough in game two. So far I'm 8-3 in testing, so it's definitely not a matchup I would worry about.

[AriLax]

How relevant have people found Emrakul? Is not being able to Pact win a common enough occurrence that it is warranted G1?

[Shawon]

How relevant have people found Emrakul? Is not being able to Pact win a common enough occurrence that it is warranted G1?

It's pretty relevant. Sometimes you can't find the combo fast enough, or you lost a combo piece to discard. Also, against a deck that can't interact with you, it's sometimes useful to conceal information to your opponent that you are playing Hive Mind. Casting Show and Tell with a Volcanic Island and Ancient Tomb could signify that you're playing a Sneak Attack. This concealment becomes very useful g2 and g3, when they board to fight your supposed plan A of Show and Tell Emrakul.

[NesretepNoj]

Emrakul is nice against discard, gives main deck milling protection, increases threat density, and makes playing against the deck hard, because you never know, what you are going to face.

I would rate the mind game (no punt intended) the highest. Do I keep this hand, which can race an Emrakul, but insta-loses to Hive Mind? Do I board in hate against the monster, which easily becomes dead draws? Do I daze Show and Tell?

I've definitely considered removing them, but I think it will make the deck too much of an one-trick pony.

[Shawon]

A trick I just discovered on my own: Hive Mind can stack upon itself. Meaning, multiple Hive Minds copy the Pacts over and over. This is handy when you only have one Pact in your hand and your opponent is able to the upkeep cost.

Anyone having any experience with Flusterstorm in the SB? I've been finding it to be great, except in the random games where my opponent pays for it by casting Dark Ritual or Seething Song.

Here's my current SB:

3 Pithing Needle (pretty effective against Wasteland)
4 Leyline of Sanctity (a godsend against discard)
3 Flusterstorm (Better than Spell Pierce as a counter, and better than Mindbreak Trap against Storm)
3 Repeal (Could be replaced with other bounce)
2 Vendilion Clique (Proactive answer to Angel's Grace and Nix)

[death]

Quick Question: What's The Strongest Combo Deck In Legacy, Considering The Current Dominance Of Blue Control? (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22317_Quick_Question_Whats_The_Strongest_Combo_Deck_In_Legacy_Considering_The_Current_Dominance_Of_Blue_Control.html)

[ac3eb]

Did anyone see how Ben Weinburg playing Hive Mind at the SCG -Cincinnati lost to Caleb Durward's blue zoo deck? It seems odd given that Caleb's deck really doesn't have much hate at all, and Ben was just steamrolling everyone at the tournament.

[NesretepNoj]

Did anyone see how Ben Weinburg playing Hive Mind at the SCG -Cincinnati lost to Caleb Durward's blue zoo deck? It seems odd given that Caleb's deck really doesn't have much hate at all, and Ben was just steamrolling everyone at the tournament.

I think I heard the commentators on SCGLive taking about failing to assemble the combo fast enough G1 and mulliganing to five running into double Red Elemental Blast G2.

One of my friends was a judge at the event, so I can probably ask him, when he wakes up. I'll update my answer...

[AriLax]

I think I heard the commentators on SCGLive taking about failing to assemble the combo fast enough G1 and mulliganing to five running into double Red Elemental Blast G2.

One of my friends was a judge at the event, so I can probably ask him, when he wakes up. I'll update my answer...

He just bricked both games basically.

[ac3eb]

Thanks for the reply guys. I guess that's variance for you right there.

[deviant]

no, that is called justice.

[Shawon]

I've been rethinking MD Emrakul. I think it's becoming more of a liability these days, with Jace already being prevalent in the format. Furthermore, plan B's are good, but they become less good when they're taking up space in the same MD as plan A. Now I just keep a singleton Emrakul that I can find with Lim-Dul's Vault or the cantrips in the deck, not easily of course, but at least with less Emrakul I can find every other card associated with plan A better.

[menace13]

no, that is called justice.
Pretty sure that is just called Luck. And Bad at that. Magic has a lot of that thing, would anyone expect cards not to?

About the Emrakul plan I tried swapping in Progenitus but find myself not even going for it and pitching it to FoW most games. Recent lists on MTGO have started using Sneak Attacks in the deck.

List from a recent Daily Event went 3-1
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
3 Intuition
2 Mental Misstep
2 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
3 Sneak Attack
2 Summoner's Pact

[Shawon]

Sneak Attack is interesting, but I'm concerned with the consistency of being able to Sneak an Emrakul as soon as SNeak Attack comes online. Not using Sneak Attack right away makes Qasali Pridemage relevant. But it passes the Jace test, that's for sure!

The Hive Mind decklists I've seen on top 8s need some serious fine-tuning. The deck doesn't need Mental Mistep, especially not over Brainstorm or a third Pact of Negation. Intuition for Pact of Negation is a strong play against blue.

[NesretepNoj]

Sneak Attack is interesting, but I'm concerned with the consistency of being able to Sneak an Emrakul as soon as SNeak Attack comes online. Not using Sneak Attack right away makes Qasali Pridemage relevant. But it passes the Jace test, that's for sure!

The Hive Mind decklists I've seen on top 8s need some serious fine-tuning. The deck doesn't need Mental Mistep, especially not over Brainstorm or a third Pact of Negation. Intuition for Pact of Negation is a strong play against blue.

Sneak Attack? That seems horrible. You are only playing three creatures (not counting Clique in the list posted above), so even if you are able to SA a monster into play, your opponent might be able to recover in time. I don't see either, which problem it addresses?

The only lists I've seen going into t8 is the GP 2nd and exact copies of that. Thomas Ma and Ben Weinburg had them neither in the main nor in the board. I've personally tried them as a four-of in the board, which works fine, except you mostly board them in against favoured match ups.

On another note, I played the deck again tonight and went 3-1 finishing third:
- Team Italia, 2-0
- LED Dredge, 2-1
- Zenith Zoo, 1-2
- Blue MUD, 2-1

In game two against Zoo I brainstormed turn two, played a City of Traitors and a Grim Monolith with Hive Mind and two pacts in hand. On his turn he played a Choke and I wasn't able to draw another blue source.

In game three I mulled to four (Polluted Delta, FoW, Show and Tell, Hive Mind). He put down a Savannah and GSZ@0 for Dryad Abor. I drew a FoW. On his turn he didn't put down a land and played a Sylvan Library; thinking he was mana screwed, I forced it in order to buy some time. He did put down his third land. A drew a City of Traitors and passed the turn. He played a goyf. I drew an Intuition and put down my City of Traitors. He played a second goyf and bashed. On his end step I intuitioned after three Pact of the Titan. On my turn a drew a second Show and Tell (hand: SnT, SnT, Hive, PotT). Of course he had a Red Elemental Blast and now that I was once again tapped out, he played a Choke on his turn. I didn't draw a new blue source, and that is how you lose to Zoo playing Hive Mind.

However, the most crazy game of the day was against MUD (G1). On his second turn I forced a Metalworker and played Intuition on his end step for three Show and Tell. On my turn I played it. I put down an Emrakul and him a new Metal Worker. His board was now: Metalworker, Ancient Tomb, Voltaic Key, Grim Monolith, and some artifact land. On his turn he made 19 mana and played Staff of Domination. Now that he was able to make infinite mana, he drew his entire deck, played an Blightsteel Colossus, equipped it with Lightning Greaves and tapped my Emrakul: GG.

For reference, this is the list I played:
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Grim Monolith
4 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:
2 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Form of the Dragon

The three Form of the Dragon was some last minute tech I thought might be cool against unsuspecting Merfolk players. As I didn't play against them, I didn't get to board them in, so I can't say, whether they do their job.

[Shawon]

I wasn't advocating Sneak Attack, though. I also think it's bad. I just said it was interesting for Hive Mind.
Originally, but I was going to start off my post you quoted as "Eh, I don't like that list ... " but I thought I'd be a little more constructive by at least discussing it.

[KobeBryan]

There seems to be no glaring weaknesses in this deck.

Its protected against discard, has counters, and 3 win conditions.

how do you stop it?

[KubaM]

Hive Mind - counters, stifle pact trigger, chalice for 0
Emrakul - O-Ring, edict, Karakas

[KobeBryan]

Hive Mind - counters, stifle pact trigger, chalice for 0
Emrakul - O-Ring, edict, Karakas

man thats almost nothing with the back up of counters.

[Lammina]

Hive Mind - counters, stifle pact trigger, chalice for 0
Emrakul - O-Ring, edict, Karakas

If my opponent make a chalice for 0 (bringing 4 of these for Main Deck in g2) I laugh! :laugh:

The chalice for 0 only helps you.... counter yours pacts, but let the copy pacts enter...

Cyah,

Lammina

[keys]

Hive Mind - counters, stifle pact trigger, Spell Pierce/Daze/Flusterstorm/Nix the Pact copy, Angel's Grace, Sundial of the Infinite
Emrakul - O-Ring, edict, Karakas, Jace, Sower, Duplicant, Wrath of God, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Humility

I'm sure there's more...

[Shawon]

Hive Mind is an incredibly formidable deck, but it can be stopped efficiently. The deck doesn't like opposing Wastelands as well as Red Elemental Blasts.

[dsck]

I'm sure there's more...

Moat doesnt help versus flying spaghetti monster :(


Is misstepless hive mind build better? After SB many opponents will bring in rebs.

[sdefreit8]

Hey guys I have not tested this deck archetype but I'm very curious in getting into a combo deck. I have not looked through the thread yet but before I invest time into reading/building etc, I wanted to know if the deck can be ran mono blue. I am obviously looking at a non sneak version. Are black and red duals there to pay for pacts on the oddball chance you need to?

[death]

black dual - slaughter pact upkeep and the 1-of Lim Dul's Vaut -- not a mass favorite

red duals - pact of the titan, and those rare occasions when you turn 4/4s sideways

[sdefreit8]

black dual - slaughter pact upkeep and the 1-of Lim Dul's Vaut -- not a mass favorite

red duals - pact of the titan, and those rare occasions when you turn 4/4s sideways

Ok I will try the deck out mono blue then without the Lim Dul. Won't be the best but since I am currently cashing out on my duals I may pick this up as a fun mono colored deck. Thanks death I'll start reading up on the archetype.

[NesretepNoj]

Ok I will try the deck out mono blue then without the Lim Dul. Won't be the best but since I am currently cashing out on my duals I may pick this up as a fun mono colored deck. Thanks death I'll start reading up on the archetype.

That is not a bad idea at all. It will also make it easier learning the deck without having to worry too much about wastelands.

In fact, it might actually be better anyway, since getting a blue source wasted, can be really devastating.

Since I've only recently added Slaughter Pact to deck, I've not done enough testing yet to verify this, but at least one Underground Sea seems like a good idea, so you'll be able to use it like a regular spell. Killing cursecatchers and the occasional annoying hate bear is of course it's primary function, but sometimes being able to kill a Tarmogoyf or a Metalworker to buy some time, is not bad at all.

[mooN_MTG]

Why Hive Mind decks have duals like Volcanic Island or Underground Sea?

[Haakon]

To pay our own pact if the opponent stifles the upkeep of his copy or casts an angel's grace in his turn...

Stifle can be beat by casting multiple pacts but angel's grace not...it's not very played but it's an awful hate for this deck.

[Lammina]

And if we give up of the FoWs and Mental Missteps, and bring for the maindeck a heavy disrupt base (thoughtseize+duress or +hymn to tourach), abandon the red duals (but not the red pacts!) and bring more basics (swamps+islands)?

Someone tested Silence/OC in the deck for protect the combo?

Cyah,

Lammina

[Julian23]

Seems like a terrible idea. FoW is in general way more versatile against the field than any discard spell you suggest. Making such a change suddenly increases the decks vulnerability to MMS, which right now isn't a card that can really disrupt the combo. One of the main reasons to play this deck is its resilience to common combo hate like hate bears, Storm and Graveyard hate as well as being able to fight through Counterspells with the added power of 4 Pact of Negation while dodging MMS, except for cantrips.

Basically, the best thing do have against this deck game1 is discard. This problem is addressed by adding 4 White Leylines after boarding.

[NesretepNoj]

Seems like a terrible idea. FoW is in general way more versatile against the field than any discard spell you suggest. Making such a change suddenly increases the decks vulnerability to MMS, which right now isn't a card that can really disrupt the combo. One of the main reasons to play this deck is its resilience to common combo hate like hate bears, Storm and Graveyard hate as well as being able to fight through Counterspells with the added power of 4 Pact of Negation while dodging MMS, except for cantrips.

Basically, the best thing do have against this deck game1 is discard. This problem is addressed by adding 4 White Leylines after boarding.

I agree with you for the most part, however, if the deck becomes so prevalent, that people start packing fringe hate cards like Angel's Grace, Chronatog, Platinum Angel, etc., adding some Thoughtseizes to the sideboard, might not be such a bad idea.

[Shawon]

I agree with you for the most part, however, if the deck becomes so prevalent, that people start packing fringe hate cards like Angel's Grace, Chronatog, Meditate, etc., adding some Thoughtseizes to the sideboard, might not be such a bad idea.

Pithing Needle addresses Chronatog and Sundial, as well as Wasteland. Everything else, a la Angel's Grace or Meditate, can be addressed with either Vendilion Clique or wait for it... Venarian Glimmer.

[Julian23]

LOL Venarian Glimmer? That card actually has potential, lol. I like it.

3-1'ed a Daily today. Lost round 1 to Bant, proceeded to win THREE MIRROR MATCHES. Three Pyroblast + 1 Flusterstorm sideboard (with 2 Flusterstorm main) were quite good.

[nyoro]

Hive Mind - counters, stifle pact trigger, chalice for 0
Emrakul - O-Ring, edict, Karakas

lol chalice for 0 doesn't do anything to stop the pact copies.

[Julian23]

Could Chalice actually be tech for the sb? It preempively stops Angel's Grace and works well against Combo. Believe me, MODO is Hive Mind INFESTED and people start splashing off-color duals just to be able to pay for opposing Pacts.

[sperry023]

Could Chalice actually be tech for the sb? It preempively stops Angel's Grace and works well against Combo. Believe me, MODO is Hive Mind INFESTED and people start splashing off-color duals just to be able to pay for opposing Pacts.Hey, I'm one of the mirrors you beat yesterday, and oddly another one of your mirrors and I have been chatting about Chalice. We were considering running it main with LDV and Impulse (maybe others) instead of Brainstorm/Ponder to shut down CMC 1 and 0 against combo. It would take some tweaking to the manabase though, and even with 8 sol lands the chance of landing a sol land and Chalice opening hand is under 25%. I'm running in side instead of Mindbreak Trap, though.

-seancperry on MTGO

[Julian23]

Just a quick update: Over the course of 6 rounds in DE, 4 were against Hive Mind. Someone really figure out a reliable tech for the mirror soon!

Maybe splashing W for Angel's Grace really seems like the way to go thus far.

[Shawon]

I said this to someone who lost to me in the mirror match: "He who has the Flusterstorm wins the mirror match." Seriously, in so many ways do you dominate the matchup, as long as you don't be misplay your Flusterstorm. If you have Flusterstorm and they don't, they hardly ever resolve SHow and Tell unless they slow roll with Grim Monolith. Even if they do, if you put them on Hive Mind, then you can sandbag your Flusterstorm and beat them when they SnT Hive Mind. That mirror match I played, he cast his Show and Tell, I put him on Hive Mind, I countered with Flusterstorm, I cast Show and Tell with Emrakul in my hand, he puts down Hive Mind, I cast MY OWN PACT AND BEAT HIM. It was hilarious.

[Julian23]

I'm currently packing 2 Flusterstorm maindeck (1 sb) myself. It's really strong as it dodges most countermagic + is able to counter your own pact copies.

On another note, I often find myself winning mirrormatches with 4/4 Giants. I even feel happy when my oppponent Intutions for Pact of the Titan because I realize it will give me the "Titan advantage" over the long course of the game.

[nyoro]

Why is this deck not at the DTB section? Are people here just want to continue to be in denial?

SCG Seattle (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22342_The_StarCityGamescom_Open_Series_Is_Returning_To_Seattle_This_Weekend.html)

[PanderAlexander]

Why is this deck not at the DTB section? Are people here just want to continue to be in denial?


The DTB is not based on opinion, it's based on the results of the decks in the prior month. With SnT Hive Mind doing so well this month, it should be in the DTB when it updates next month.

[KubaM]

When you side in Mindbreak Trap? What is your experience playing this card?

[Shawon]

When you side in Mindbreak Trap? What is your experience playing this card?

Who are you addressing your post to? Anyways, Mindbreak Trap is at its best against Storm or Belcher, in which case I still think Flusterstorm is simply better and more versatile since it also stops discard and counters well. It really is the best sideboard card Hive Mind could ask for. I'm surprised only one Hive Mind out of the 3-4 used it, but I suppose it simply hasn't caught on yet or it's not readily accessible since it just came out in Commander and those sets sell out like hot cakes.

[PanderAlexander]

When you side in Mindbreak Trap? What is your experience playing this card?

Recently most lists have gone away from that card. The new card people have been discussing a few posts back is flutterstorm. Also if you expect a lot of other Hive Mind players, people have started to pack Angel's Grace to combat the mirror.

[Shawon]

What is up with Hive Mind packing Angel's Grace now? You're stretching your manabase for a completely reactive card that's only use is for the mirror? Am I the only one who finds this absurd? Yes, now you can find yourself in that rare occasion where you can hardcast white Leyline, but that's pointless against discard if you haven't found out turn 0.

Furthermore, Angel's Grace doesn't stop Emrakul from annihilating you. Why fight Hive Mind itself when fighting Show and Tell is much more important and easier? Flusterstorm owns Show and Tell. I know I'm sounding like a broken record about Flusterstorm, but if you're not packing 4 Flusterstorm, you're not packing any Angel's Grace.

I think Daze is a even a better card to use in the mirror than Angel's Grace. If your plan is to let them do all the work and find Hive Mind, just keep one mana open, and Daze your own Pact.

Oh, next level tech against opponent's Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? Vendilion Clique. You're welcome.

[menace13]

What is up with Hive Mind packing Angel's Grace now? You're stretching your manabase for a completely reactive card that's only use is for the mirror? Am I the only one who finds this absurd? Yes, now you can find yourself in that rare occasion where you can hardcast white Leyline, but that's pointless against discard if you haven't found out turn 0.

Furthermore, Angel's Grace doesn't stop Emrakul from annihilating you. Why fight Hive Mind itself when fighting Show and Tell is much more important and easier? Flusterstorm owns Show and Tell. I know I'm sounding like a broken record about Flusterstorm, but if you're not packing 4 Flusterstorm, you're not packing any Angel's Grace.

I think Daze is a even a better card to use in the mirror than Angel's Grace. If your plan is to let them do all the work and find Hive Mind, just keep one mana open, and Daze your own Pact.

Oh, next level tech against opponent's Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? Vendilion Clique. You're welcome.
Grace is uncounterable. Show and Tell in the mirror is a liability even more so if I have Grace and They Do not. What is it going to do? Play Emrakul off SnT, Don't I just drop Mine and make you go down 2 cards to 1? Clique is very good, but there is always the chance it eats a FoW where Grace can not be stopped aside getting it Cliqued/Discarded. Might be a waste of sb slots in Paper, but not for MTGO. Ask anyone playing how many times they have seen the deck in a 4 round Daily Event.

[Shawon]

Daze and Flusterstorm are effectively uncounterable after Hive Mind resolves. Angel's Grace depends on your mirror opponent to ETB a Hive Mind first. I don't think that is a good strategy, because you are conceding that your opponent is getting down Hive Mind before you. I'd rather drop my Hive Mind or resolve Show and Tell first, and still win. This is where Flusterstorm and Vendilion Clique come in to ensure this strategy. I could care less if Clique gets countered by Force, the only thing in the mirror that can counter CLique. 2-for-1 is not bad in the mirror.

There are WAY BETTER cards to use in the mirror than Angel's Grace. Daze, Flusterstorm, Vendilion Clique, Red Elemental Blast, ANY discard spell and you don't have to splash a 3rd or 4th color.

[Julian23]

Ask anyone playing how many times they have seen the deck in a 4 round Daily Event.

Out of the last 10 Rounds of Daily Events? 6 times. Magic Online is INFESTED with this deck.

[menace13]

Daze and Flusterstorm are effectively uncounterable after Hive Mind resolves. Angel's Grace depends on your mirror opponent to ETB a Hive Mind first. I don't think that is a good strategy, because you are conceding that your opponent is getting down Hive Mind before you. I'd rather drop my Hive Mind or resolve Show and Tell first, and still win. This is where Flusterstorm and Vendilion Clique come in to ensure this strategy. I could care less if Clique gets countered by Force, the only thing in the mirror that can counter CLique. 2-for-1 is not bad in the mirror.

There are WAY BETTER cards to use in the mirror than Angel's Grace. Daze, Flusterstorm, Vendilion Clique, Red Elemental Blast, ANY discard spell and you don't have to splash a 3rd or 4th color.
I want them to get Hive down first when I have Grace, that is the plan. After Hive Resolves Grace buries them on thier upkeep with Pact triggers. If SnT resolves either see the last sentence or hold Emrakul to 2 for 1 them. If they counter your clique and that was your out you're done, they can not stop Grace. None of the cards you listed are better in the mirror. Not even close.

[Shawon]

I want them to get Hive down first when I have Grace, that is the plan. After Hive Resolves Grace buries them on thier upkeep with Pact triggers. If SnT resolves either see the last sentence or hold Emrakul to 2 for 1 them. If they counter your clique and that was your out you're done, they can not stop Grace. None of the cards you listed are better in the mirror. Not even close.

Then we have different mindsets on approaching the Hive Mind mirror. Your plan is to passively wait until they drop Hive Mind and you use Angel's Grace to foil one of their Pacts, and then win when you cast Pact on your turn or win via Emrakul. My plan is to win by stopping the mirror from EVER resolving SnT or HM on their turn, and then win when I resolve my SnT or HM.

With my mindset, then yes, any of the cards I mentioned are better than AG in the mirror, because they help your primary plan of resolving SnT and HM. AG is a dead card if you're resolving your own HM or SnT. It doesn't hurt that those cards also address other matchups than the mirror.

[mrjumbo03]

Hive Mind has been dominating lately. I have this feeling inside that the next ban hammer will hit this deck, and I'm thinking it's gonna be Show and Tell. There's just no easy way to hate the deck out as it is right now. Best sideboard for it is to pray that the opponent doesn't have it.

[menace13]

Then we have different mindsets on approaching the Hive Mind mirror. Your plan is to passively wait until they drop Hive Mind and you use Angel's Grace to foil one of their Pacts, and then win when you cast Pact on your turn or win via Emrakul. My plan is to win by stopping the mirror from EVER resolving SnT or HM on their turn, and then win when I resolve my SnT or HM.

With my mindset, then yes, any of the cards I mentioned are better than AG in the mirror, because they help your primary plan of resolving SnT and HM. AG is a dead card if you're resolving your own HM or SnT. It doesn't hurt that those cards also address other matchups than the mirror.
You're right on our approach and AG is dead everywhere else unlike the other options. The AG plan is to use the least resources possible allowing them to labor and expend cards and mana while I profit. They can die to their own Pact and Hive Mind on upkeep when AG resolves and I pass turn.

[Shawon]

Hive Mind has been dominating lately. I have this feeling inside that the next ban hammer will hit this deck, and I'm thinking it's gonna be Show and Tell. There's just no easy way to hate the deck out as it is right now. Best sideboard for it is to pray that the opponent doesn't have it.

GTFOThisThread. What is it with this herd mentality that cries "BAAAAN!!" every time a combo deck does well? Remember Spiral Tide? Probably not because since the printing of Mental Mistep the deck has fallen out of the favor, and god knows how short people's memory is. Anyway, a week after one of the Hatfield brothers, forgot who, won an SCG and an SCG author, Shaheen Sorani wrote in an article that Time Spiral should be banned, and he got rightly served in the forums and used "well, I never said I was a Legacy expert" as his safety net.

Do you KNOW how many ways you can ruin Hive Mind's shit if you tried? HM always wins when it has at least two specific cards in their hand. What's one weakness about that? Discard? Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Let's try another way. How about one of our Eternal staples, Wasteland? HM has 6-7 double-colorless lands, I honestly think I could hear my opponent's dicks get hard when they Wasteland my Ancient Tomb. Although, Wasteland is not effective against HM as discard.

And you call for a ban after WOTC gives us an COLORLESS answer to HM with Sundial of the Infinite. Note how I intently card tagged Sundial instead of every other card in my post. Think about it.

Now I finally understand what IBA or Tacosnape said about the lack of gumption the Legacy community has in adapting their decks against successful decks.

Grow some balls, Legacy community.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You're right on our approach and AG is dead everywhere else unlike the other options. The AG plan is to use the least resources possible allowing them to labor and expend cards and mana while I profit. They can die to their own Pact and Hive Mind on upkeep when AG resolves and I pass turn.

We can agree to disagree on our approach to the HM. But I imagine it must be torture to face the same HM deck with the AG plan. It's comparable to two Land Tax decks facing each other. (shakes head to wipe out mental image).

[nayon]

GTFOThisThread. What is it with this herd mentality that cries "BAAAAN!!" every time a combo deck does well? Remember Spiral Tide? Probably not because since the printing of Mental Mistep the deck has fallen out of the favor, and god knows how short people's memory is. Anyway, a week after one of the Hatfield brothers, forgot who, won an SCG and an SCG author, Shaheen Sorani wrote in an article that Time Spiral should be banned, and he got rightly served in the forums and used "well, I never said I was a Legacy expert" as his safety net.

Do you KNOW how many ways you can ruin Hive Mind's shit if you tried? HM always wins when it has at least two specific cards in their hand. What's one weakness about that? Discard? Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Let's try another way. How about one of our Eternal staples, Wasteland? HM has 6-7 double-colorless lands, I honestly think I could hear my opponent's dicks get hard when they Wasteland my Ancient Tomb. Although, Wasteland is not effective against HM as discard.

And you call for a ban after WOTC gives us an COLORLESS answer to HM with Sundial of the Infinite. Note how I intently card tagged Sundial instead of every other card in my post. Think about it.

Now I finally understand what IBA or Tacosnape said about the lack of gumption the Legacy community has in adapting their decks against successful decks.

Grow some balls, Legacy community.

The problem with this deck is that you have to play really terrible cards to hate it out, and those cards do nothing in other matchups. Contrast this to Dredge, whose hate works against all kinds of deck from Loam to UW Control (the version that recurs wastelands), and Storm combo, which you can hate out with basic disruption cards that are good in several matchups.

Against Hive Mind though, you have to play really awful cards like Angel's Grace or Sundial of the infinite, and even then you just die to Emrakul. I'm not calling for any bans or anything, but the deck is a lot more resilient than any other combo deck because of A- The hate cards being terrible cards that are useless against anything else B- There also being the Emrakul plan.

[mrjumbo03]

@ Shawon, What Nayon said.

Let me get this straight, I'm not calling for the banning of Hive Mind and I don't think it's possible that WoTC would do that to a 6 to cast enchantment. I just expressed my opinion that I have a feeling that Show and Tell might get banned. And such banning won't just affect this single deck. Since the printing of Progenitus and Emrakul, Show and Tell became bannable in my opinion. Whether or not Hive Mind will remain viable if the banning happens is still up in the air, but I'm guessing probably not. The problem is, Hive Mind is so resilient to hate because Show and Tell gives it 2 entirely different plans that are just so different that you can't possibly cover them all.

I for one wanted to buy this deck a couple of months back. I had negotiations with some people to get the Show and Tells and the Grim Monoliths but a conversation with a friend of mine made me change my mind. If it doesn't get banned I'm all for it because I love deck diversity in legacy. Granted, I lost to 2 Hive Mind decks in my last tourney. I'm not griping because I know how the deck is not invincible and how Merfolk is still a hard matchup.

[KobeBryan]

@ Shawon, What Nayon said.

Let me get this straight, I'm not calling for the banning of Hive Mind and I don't think it's possible that WoTC would do that to a 6 to cast enchantment. I just expressed my opinion that I have a feeling that Show and Tell might get banned. And such banning won't just affect this single deck. Since the printing of Progenitus and Emrakul, Show and Tell became bannable in my opinion. Whether or not Hive Mind will remain viable if the banning happens is still up in the air, but I'm guessing probably not. The problem is, Hive Mind is so resilient to hate because Show and Tell gives it 2 entirely different plans that are just so different that you can't possibly cover them all.

I for one wanted to buy this deck a couple of months back. I had negotiations with some people to get the Show and Tells and the Grim Monoliths but a conversation with a friend of mine made me change my mind. If it doesn't get banned I'm all for it because I love deck diversity in legacy. Granted, I lost to 2 Hive Mind decks in my last tourney. I'm not griping because I know how the deck is not invincible and how Merfolk is still a hard matchup.

if the deck keeps topping, it might get banned. I don't care for it to be banned or not, but it seems to me that the only deck that can really fight this deck consistently is merfolk. Sure discard works, but when you board in 4x leyline of sanctity, the game is gg for the rock based deck.

The biggest problem is what that guy said. If you hate, the cards in your SB are ONLY for this deck and nothing else.

[menace13]

We can agree to disagree on our approach to the HM. But I imagine it must be torture to face the same HM deck with the AG plan. It's comparable to two Land Tax decks facing each other. (shakes head to wipe out mental image).
Lol. This is exactly what MTGO has been doing past few months. Prolly explains why some have started to use Sneak Attack and/or Cliques in their Hive lists.

[Shawon]

I'm not going to entertain any more discussion on why Hive Mind or any of its components should be banned. The purpose of this thread is to discuss cards or strategy with Hive Mind decks.

If you want to talk bannings, then go to the B/R Speculation thread and whine there.

[Stone]

So back on the 17th Ari Lax posted a list in this article (http://http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22338_A_Railbirds_Eye_View.html) which cuts emrakuls from the main and 2 pacts, adding 3 lim-dul's vaults as extra tutors as well as a playset of discard (thoughtseize/duress split).

Please help me understand the strengths/weaknesses of this approach.

My guess is that the SCG lists are set up to maximise speed. This direction slows the deck down (no city of traitors/less intuition) but increases redundancy to get plan A (hivemind)through hate. Thoughts?

[catmint]

I am new to the deck and only tested versus merfolk a couple of 4 matches. I finished twice 2:1 and twice 1:2. Of course there were a couple of suboptimal plays, but I still think it is a tough MU.

My question:
How do you board versus merfolk?

Can you tell me a rough overview about the boarding plan.

Btw.: Hope SnT won't get banned. Just ordered my missing 7 cards for the deck. :)

[AriLax]

So back on the 17th Ari Lax posted a list in this article (http://http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22338_A_Railbirds_Eye_View.html) which cuts emrakuls from the main and 2 pacts, adding 3 lim-dul's vaults as extra tutors as well as a playset of discard (thoughtseize/duress split).

Please help me understand the strengths/weaknesses of this approach.

My guess is that the SCG lists are set up to maximise speed. This direction slows the deck down (no city of traitors/less intuition) but increases redundancy to get plan A (hivemind)through hate. Thoughts?


Current list:

4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Show and tell
4 Intuition
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Grim Monolith
4 Duress
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
3 Island
1 Swamp

Not sure on the 2nd Marsh Flats, could be another Blue fetch or Swamp. Probe is unreal with LDV though. LDV is basically a double tutor with any cantrip, but Probe costing 0 instead of U is huge.

Old Curve:
T2 need UB to LDV, turn 3 need 2UU to Bstorm/Ponder into Show and Tell which can't be done without a Sea in play on their end step for them to Waste + a Tomb or a Lotus Petal, which sucks at every other point.

Now T2 UB for Vault leads to T3 Probe for free, draw 2 cards you Vaulted to, then play any land to play Show.

Probe is also a free spell to make Pact of Negation lethal faster.

[catmint]

just lost 2 games versus blue zoo 2:0 and 2:1 ... basically lost to Nacatl, Goyf, MM, Price of Progress, Aven Mindcensor, Red elemental blast, Jace (bouncing Emrakul) and him beeing able to pay for all pacts except for slaugther, which I could not intuition for in Game.

Phu... have to learn to goldfish faster!

[Shawon]

Yeah, I don't know why people keep saying "Even if you can stop Hive Mind, you can't deal with Emrakul." Emrakul is SO easy to deal with. Everyone and their mother who isn't playing Hive Mind or any other combo is either playing Jace or Karakas.

[Koby]

Yeah, I don't know why people keep saying "Even if you can stop Hive Mind, you can't deal with Emrakul." Emrakul is SO easy to deal with. Everyone and their mother who isn't playing Hive Mind or any other combo is either playing Jace or Karakas.

True story - My opponent cast Emrakul via Show n Tell, attacked me to 5. I took it like a man, then topdecked Karakas and bounced Emrakul. Then I played SFM and won the game from 5 life.

[lordofthepit]

Current list:

4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Show and tell
4 Intuition
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Grim Monolith
4 Duress
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
3 Island
1 Swamp



This looks sick. More tutoring and more protection than the standard version.

Interested about Duress over Thoughtseize. Does the 2 life make a huge deal (I know you're running Vaults and Tombs)? Have you ever wanted to take a Vendilion Clique or Birchlore Ranger (yeah, I know) with your discard effect?

[AriLax]

This looks sick. More tutoring and more protection than the standard version.

Interested about Duress over Thoughtseize. Does the 2 life make a huge deal (I know you're running Vaults and Tombs)? Have you ever wanted to take a Vendilion Clique or Birchlore Ranger (yeah, I know) with your discard effect?

I have played 0 games with all Duress set up, previous list was a 2/2 split. I figured cutting down on the life loss might be a bit better with the 3 LDV's, but that might just be irrelevant.

[kingsey]

Current list:

4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Show and tell
4 Intuition
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Grim Monolith
4 Duress
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
3 Island
1 Swamp

Not sure on the 2nd Marsh Flats, could be another Blue fetch or Swamp. Probe is unreal with LDV though. LDV is basically a double tutor with any cantrip, but Probe costing 0 instead of U is huge.

Old Curve:
T2 need UB to LDV, turn 3 need 2UU to Bstorm/Ponder into Show and Tell which can't be done without a Sea in play on their end step for them to Waste + a Tomb or a Lotus Petal, which sucks at every other point.

Now T2 UB for Vault leads to T3 Probe for free, draw 2 cards you Vaulted to, then play any land to play Show.

Probe is also a free spell to make Pact of Negation lethal faster.

I will be testing this list on sunday. It seems that Emrakul is not GG anymore.

[AriLax]

I will be testing this list on sunday. It seems that Emrakul is not GG anymore.

I never liked Emrakul to begin with. It's a complete blank when you aren't S&Ting it into play, and now with KotR being so well positioned it's even worse. Progenitus at least pitches to Force of Will and dodges Karakas, so if you decide to go with the Tom Ma style list I would strongly consider him. I was going to go mono-U anyways (as in all Islands, Tombs, Fetches, and maybe a Sea, fuck the 4 duals) until I realized the Probe-LDV interaction letting UB be equally Wasteland resistant.

There also might be a need to make room for 1 more Summoner's Pact, unsure. The cut is either the 4th Duress, 4th Probe, 4th Intuition, or a the random extra fetch. The basic/fetch count also might want one more Black source now that LDV is more important.

[Star|Scream]

True story - My opponent cast Emrakul via Show n Tell, attacked me to 5. I took it like a man, then topdecked Karakas and bounced Emrakul. Then I played SFM and won the game from 5 life.

If you were in turn 2,3 or 4 with 20 life you must be playing mono-color. If you had karakas in your deck playing mono white that means D&T, which means you have 4 karaki in your deck. You also have mangara, o-ring, or even an emergency vialed flickerwisp to deal with her. SNT -> Emrakul never has nor will be a problem for you. Plus with maindeck revokers you can even put angel's grace in the board because you already have plenty of answers for most decks which aren't storm. So instead of saying "took it like a man," you should have said "I let my deck do what it does."


Yeah, I don't know why people keep saying "Even if you can stop Hive Mind, you can't deal with Emrakul." Emrakul is SO easy to deal with. Everyone and their mother who isn't playing Hive Mind or any other combo is either playing Jace or Karakas.

The problem isn't that you can't fight either threat. The problem is you must draw, tutor, wish, etc. both solutions before SNT resolves or A: Lose, B: draw, tutor, wish karakas/metamorph within 1.5 turns or Lose

[Koby]

If you were in turn 2,3 or 4 with 20 life you must be playing mono-color. If you had karakas in your deck playing mono white that means D&T, which means you have 4 karaki in your deck. You also have mangara, o-ring, or even an emergency vialed flickerwisp to deal with her. SNT -> Emrakul never has nor will be a problem for you. Plus with maindeck revokers you can even put angel's grace in the board because you already have plenty of answers for most decks which aren't storm. So instead of saying "took it like a man," you should have said "I let my deck do what it does."


GW/x Maverick, but it's all the same. The setup for this game was having 2 mana dorks, and Canonist out. Emrakul got slide under with S&T, so I was up shit creek. Took the 15, then topdecked the Karakas like a champ.

[Star|Scream]

GW/x Maverick, but it's all the same. The setup for this game was having 2 mana dorks, and Canonist out. Emrakul got slide under with S&T, so I was up shit creek. Took the 15, then topdecked the Karakas like a champ.

My apologies.

[ThomasDowd]

I never liked Emrakul to begin with. It's a complete blank when you aren't S&Ting it into play, and now with KotR being so well positioned it's even worse. Progenitus at least pitches to Force of Will and dodges Karakas, so if you decide to go with the Tom Ma style list I would strongly consider him. I was going to go mono-U anyways (as in all Islands, Tombs, Fetches, and maybe a Sea, fuck the 4 duals) until I realized the Probe-LDV interaction letting UB be equally Wasteland resistant.

There also might be a need to make room for 1 more Summoner's Pact, unsure. The cut is either the 4th Duress, 4th Probe, 4th Intuition, or a the random extra fetch. The basic/fetch count also might want one more Black source now that LDV is more important.

Playing a non zero number of slaughter pacts in the 75 eventually I assume?

Surprised there are none maindeck considering paying for it is rather easy and not too many decks can pay for one at the moment. It definitely is very very dead in a combo mirror though, so I can see why as it doesn't outright win you the game.

[AriLax]

Playing a non zero number of slaughter pacts in the 75 eventually I assume?

Surprised there are none maindeck considering paying for it is rather easy and not too many decks can pay for one at the moment. It definitely is very very dead in a combo mirror though, so I can see why as it doesn't outright win you the game.

I want every one of my Pacts to be castable without a target. Slaughter Pact will for sure be sideboarded.

[ThomasDowd]

Fair enough. I figured that was the reason, I was only playing one(awful, awful practices) in the other build, which seemed clunky and I was on my way to moving it to the side.

[ivanpei]

I find the emrakul combo clunky. Moving it to the board. Is it just me or is this combo busted. It's really easy to have hive mind up with 1 layer of protection t4 and 2 layers by t 5/6. It's really really solid. I'm playing Tom mas build with just UBr, no white. -3 Emmy, -1 city of traitors, +2 fetch, + 2 ldv. I like more blue lands and more tutors just to max out consistency. Mulling less is tech.

[kingsey]

How have the non emrakul lists been working for you guys?

[ivanpei]

So far I much prefer the non emrakul lists. You have much better draws with less "clunk" it gives you space for more lands (I play 20, 15 blue, 5 sol lands). I also added 2 ldv which have been very solid. Consistency and resiliency to wasteland/discard has improved alot after making that minor adjustment. I don't miss the emrakul plan much honestly. You only really need emrakul against angel's grace/ stifle. You won't find angels grace mded and stifle can still be fought by simply playing another pact (its advisable to have multiple pacts if you suscpect your opponent is playing stifle). I've move my emmys to the board. Haven't missed em.

[BantFTW]

This deck owns quite hard, it normally always wins against non-counter decks
and also is good against other combo.
Only against heavy control they got it hard but you've got so many counters in the deck:
MM, force, ... so it won't be a problem, I think it's the strongest deck atm cause turn 2/3
you normally win :)

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@Ari: Considering your list doesn't have FoWs of its own, how has playing against decks with Misstep, Counterspell and FoW been? One of the things that was particularly devastating when testing control against Hive Mind was that Misstep only dealt with the cantrips, which was sometimes relevant but usually didn't do enough to actually win the game. With Duress instead you open your protection up to get stopped by Misstep which will protect Force/Counterspell and puts a huge burden on Pact of Negation to actually resolve threats. How much worse have heavy hardcounter builds of control become with the new disruption-configuration (especially as LDV even gives them good targets for Spell Snare)?

[Stone]

First up, thankyou Ari for responding to my initial post/questions - especially so thoroughly. I didn't imagine i'd reach you in person, or get so thorough an answer when I asked the question. A big thankyou for writing such excellent articles, sharing your thoughts and ideas publicly and contributing to grow this excellent game & community. I imagine a lot of time goes into writing, it is appreciated by many people who never post feedback.

On Mon's point above I know the ANT lists you've worked on in the past all advocate the duress/thoughtseize plan as proactive disruption. Swapping these slots for FoW seems like it enables the deck to continue to function in a slower, bust through hate late (if necessary) plan as Chris VanMeter talks about here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22444_Deck_Tech_Hive_Mind_With_Chris_VanMeter.html) in the last SCG coverage. I would think your swap is considered and intentional, do the additional tutors enable this more proactive approach? Do the metagame changes make this a better/worse call?

In the past have really enjoyed your primers on complicated decks like storm (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/). With it being an interesting time for this deck (hate coming out at the last SCG to stop any top 16 appearance) I and i'm sure others would love to see a more in depth primer, article or reports that talks about the theory behind playing it properly. So please take this as encouragement for anyone out there considering putting something more formal together.

Also thankyou to everyone contributing to the discussion, I don't get much time to play so all these posts are really valuable for me :)

[catmint]

Did some of already see a lot of angels grace. I lost 2:1 vs. Maverick to angels grace.
Adding discard is the only viable answer I see.

[kingsey]

Waiting on Ari to reply. I'm doing some more testing tonight but I may have to add FoW back in.

[Hopo]

Did some of already see a lot of angels grace. I lost 2:1 vs. Maverick to angels grace.
Adding discard is the only viable answer I see.

Do it like the rest and play Chalice of the Void or Vendilion Clique to deal with it.

[Neuad]

I dont have time to look through the whole thread so I dont know if it's been discussed, but have you guys considered Cunning Wish? Something like

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [M12] Island (1)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [M10] Hive Mind
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [FUT] Pact of the Titan
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
1 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [M12] Ponder
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [JGC] Cunning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Intuition
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of the Titan
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [FUT] Intervention Pact
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm

[Captain_Insano]

Your deck is very close to what I have been testing for about a week and a half. So far, I really think the wish toolbox is absolutely the way to go.

[doggue]

Hi Guy's

I have some real problems with merfolk. I want to board in 3 Cephalid Empress / 1 Firespout or 4 Firespout. But I have no idea what to board out... any suggestions?

Best,

[Neuad]

Your deck is very close to what I have been testing for about a week and a half. So far, I really think the wish toolbox is absolutely the way to go.

Would you mind posting or PMing me a list? My mana base and board are still in the works and I'd like some comparison.

[AriLax]

Played with the Lim-Dul's Vault version, was not impressed. Combo often turns into a four card one (Hive Mind, Pact, Show/Grim, backup), losing cards to Vault is bad and Probe not digging is worse. Would probably go back to the Blue versions, Force back in if I was going to play the deck again. No need to get Wastelanded just to Thoughtseize them. I still hate Force as you need almost all your cards in hand to combo, but that's how it goes. Might experiment with Vendilion Clique there.

[pocari79]

Went to a local tournament on saturday and tried piloting this version of Hive Mind:

4 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Force of will
4 Hive Mind
4 Show and Tell
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Pact of the Titan
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Grim Monolith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
1 Slaughter Pact

The decklist numbers look weird and that's because of card availability. I wanted to play with 2 Volcanics but only had access to 1. Also, I'd rather have at least 3 Pact of the Titan and cut down the number of Summoner's Pact but none of my local stores had any of the red pacts. Also, while goldfishing, I didn't really like the intuitions so I decided to cut one and try a Lim-Dul's Vault but I never drew one on the tournament. Lastly, I wasn't too sure about the Spell Pierces in the board but I really wasn't too sure what else to put in that slot as I liked everything else.

This is also the first time I've played the deck other than goldfishing so I figure I was sideboarding totally
wrong. I'd appreciate any suggestions regarding sideboarding.

Round 1 - Adam (NO Show)

Game 1: He had a slow start where he just played lands and hierarchs and I was able to show and tell an emrakul while he didn't put anything into play. He drew and didn't have a solution. wohoo.

Sideboard: -3 Emrakul, +3 Spell Pierce. Even though I won with an Emrakul last game, I felt that he would be able to get rid of it with a Jace and I didn't really want to show and tell and have him put a 3rd land in play and then on his turn play the 4th land and Jace.

Game 2: I mulled to five and kept a fairly decent hand with show and tell, a land, a hive mind and a pact of negation. He got a quick natural order into Progenitus around turn 3 or so and I wasn't able to draw into a red or green or black pact so I couldn't win off a hive mind in play.

Game 3: Mulled to five again and again, kept a fairly good hand with an ancient tomb, grim monolith, show and tell, hive mind, and a red and blue pact. I played the land and monolith and didn't draw a blue source for the next couple of turns and he was able to natural order into terastadon and blew up both my permanents and one of his lands. I still had a city of traitors in hand so I played it and then i was trying to topdeck a blue source but that didn't happen and I died to massive elephants.

0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 - John (Reanimator)

Game 1: He thought I was still playing merfolk so he entombed for an elesh norn and reanimated it. I intuitioned for 3 show and tells at the end of turn 2 and on my turn 3 played show and tell into hive mind into 2 green pacts.

Sideboard: +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +4 Chalice of the Void, -4 Ponder, -4 Brainstorm. I probably made mistakes here but I felt that if I resolved an early chalice for one, then any additional ponder/brainstorm I drew would be totally useless. Still, it felt extremely bad to board out my draw spells but I wasn't too sure what to take out.

Game 2: I didn't have any disruption in this game and he was able to animate dead a turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis and on my turn 2 I had to show and tell an emrakul and he put an angel of despair in play and killed my emrakul after the show and tell resolved. *sigh*.

Game 3: I mulled to 3 because the other hands I drew contained 0 lands, not because I was greedy. He mulled to 5 so I was hoping he'd have a shitty draw too. I was really never in this game as he got an early turn 3 Jin-Gitaxis. I was actually able to get 3 lands so I was able to slaughter pacted the Jin-gitaxis. Unfortunately, on his turn he just exhumed the Jin-Gitaxis again and reanimated an Iona on blue and that was pretty much it.

I didn't see any of my sideboarded cards on game 2 or 3 which meant that even if I left the ponders and brainstorms in, it wouldn't make a difference but still, i don't think it was the right sideboard decision.

0-2 (1-2)

Round 3 - Bryan (Forgemaster MUD)

Game 1: I thought he was playing some sort of weird stax/affinity deck with his start and so I show and telled an emrakul into play and he put in a forgemaster. I was wondering how he could live through this and then he decided to play a lodestone golem and then sac 3 other artifacts and tinkered up a metamorph that copied the emrakul. Next turn, he attacked with the lodestone and then sacced it and 2 more artifacts to tinker up a sundering titan to blow up 2 of my colored lands leaving me with an ancient tomb. So now the board is an ancient tomb on my side and he has a sundering titan and forgemaster and that's it. Meanwhile, I had managed to draw a hive mind and another show and tell in my hand along with a red and green pact. I just needed to draw and island and I should be able to win. I look at the top of my deck and i drew an island! I played a show and tell and then put in a hive mind and he put in another lodestone golem!! I had no more mana sources in play so I couldn't play my pacts so I had to pass the turn and died during his next attack. So frustrating!!

Sideboard: -3 Emrakul, +3 Spell Pierce

Game 2: I don't think this game was remotely close as I had the show and tell, hive mind, green pact, force, brainstorm, island, ancient tomb in my opening hand. I didn't even bother brainstorming during my turn as I wanted a blue card for force of will in case he tried a trinisphere or a lodestone golem. What I was afraid of was him leaving a 3sphere or golem in hand when I show and tell but there's nothing I could do about that so I went for the turn 2 show and tell anyways. He didn't have much and I just killed him with the pact.

Game 3: He mulled to 5 and I kept a hand with an island and a spell pierce. He played a lot of artifacts but no sphere effects on his turn 1. I just played an island on my turn and left it open for a spell pierce. He then tried landing a 3sphere on his turn 2 and I was able to pierce it and he was pretty much out of gas at that point. I think I comboed off two turns later.

1-2 (3-3)

Round 4 - Hugo (NO Rug)

I conceded to him as he was paired down so hopefully he can try to make top 4. We played it out anyways as I needed the practice with this deck.

Game 1: I had multiple show and tells in my hand as well as a force and an emrakul and so I was going to try to resolve as many show and tells as possible and that's exactly what happened. I put an emrakul into play and he put a clique and then he scooped when he drew he next card.

Sideboard: -3 Emrakul, -1 Slaughter Pact, +4 Chalice of the Void. I figured that a chalice for 1 would cripple a lot of his deck as he would probably be boarding in REBs.

Game 2: I think I had to mull to 5 again and I didn't have a quick start so we were both trying to sculpt the best hands we could. It was just too much though as he had 3 rebs and 2 force of wills ready to counter my show and tells and hive minds.

Game 3: This was pretty similar to game 2 except he only had 1 red source and he already REBed one of my show and tells. I was contemplating if I should hardcast hive mind that same turn but then I would be tapped out and he could easily daze me. I decided I would try to show and tell again next turn but then he just cast REB again. I tried the hive mind with 1 mana up and he had the force. I blue pacted and he ended up forcing again. I had another blue pact in hand and a green pact but the problem was that he had 5 mana sources already so the green pact wouldn't kill him. If i had a red pact instead of the green pact, I would have gone for this a turn earlier because he only had 4 mana in play. Had to concede this match as well.

1-3 (4-5)

All in all, it was a pretty miserable performance with the deck but I wasn't expecting that the first time I played this deck I would do amazing. From that last game, I realized that I really, really needed red pacts over the green ones and that I needed something against decks that have boatload of counters like NO RUG. Also, I'm really not liking the Emrakuls as I was able to show and tell 4 times and lost twice. That's just really unacceptable and there are many decks that have solutions somewhere for it whether it be Jace, oblivion ring, karakas, metamorph, etc..

After thinking about this for a while, I was thinking that this should be the next iteration of the deck:

3 Island
2 TUNDRA
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
6 Blue Fetchlands
4 Hive Mind
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Pact of Negation
4 Ponder
4 IMPULSE
4 Show and Tell
3 Pact of the Titan
2 Summoner's Pact
2 Slaughter Pact
2 PROGENITUS
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Grim Monolith

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Firespout
3 BOSEIJU, WHO SHELTERS ALL
1 Slaughter Pact

I feel that Brainstorm feels really bad in this deck as there's not that many shuffle effects in the deck and there were times where I had no shuffle effect and only 1 or 2 lands in play and I had to brainstorm and I got unlucky and didn't find a fetch or a ponder and so I basically just gave my opponent 2 free turns to kill me. I turned to impulse because it digs 4 and it also dodges misstep + chalice for 1.

I'm thinking of trying out 2 Progenitus because after I show and tell it out, at least it doesn't die to bounce spells and stuff like triggered removal. Plus, I was able to summoner's pact for it and then toss it for forcewhich was something that came up in testing earlier.

The tundras are there so I can actually cast Leyline of Sanctity if they're not in my opening hand.

The Boseijus are there for those aggro control decks that don't pack wasteland but have a boatload of counterspells. Even if those control decks have wastelands, I'd rather have them waste the Boseijus instead of my duals or sol lands.

I also want to try to fit in cliques in there but I'm not sure how I can do that. Maybe replace Progenitus/Emrakul with cliques. Needs further testing.

[Moduloc]

what would you guys suggest for sideboard options in a meta with tons of hymn and team america type decks. Also how good is chalice of the void for sideboards?

[Julian23]

Divert can single-handedly win the game if they don't expect it, but that's more like a one-trick poney that they will eventually just play around.

I've seen some people put Misdirection to great use against those decks. It counters Hymn + serves its role in counter wars.

[ivanpei]

@ pocari, 13 blue sources + 6 sol lands is very very greedy. I know that's the scg configuration but I personally play 9 fetches, 2 islands and 4 duals + 5 sol lands (2 traitors, 3 tomb). Never never board out brainstorms/ ponder. You need them to dig. They are some of the best cards in the deck. I've cut enrakuls a long time ago for the extra land and 2 ldvs. I cut white and leyline for an additional sea and volc. Ldv IMO is very importan because te deck's weakness is intuition if they force intuition and you only have pact backup, you are in trouble. Having extra tutors gives you more consistency and helps you play through hate on your tutors. Also, always always play 15 blue sources. I hate losing to a single wasteland. More blue also decreases mull rates.

[Hawaii]

Going to be playing this deck this weekend but having trouble with some of my numbers. I'm currently running 3x Volcanic Island and 1x Underground Sea so that I can play red blasts in the board because I'm expecting a lot of merfolk. Also upped the blue sources as per some of the suggestions in the thread becuase I was mulling waaaaay to much with the recent scg land configurations.

Is it worth it for this deck to run any Mental Missteps? Seeing a lot of lists that don't have them anywhere in the 75.

Personally most interested in tuning the sideboard for multiple merfolk decks and a dash of everything else, ie. team america, dreadstill and others.

My current sideboard and reasoning.

Slaughter Pact-extra situational pact, nonblack opps
3x Mental Misstep-uhh 1 drops...but seriously, aether vial (expecting lots), random brainstorms.
2x Pithing Needle- wastelands, aether vial, top
2x Flusterstorm-counter wars, combo
2x Misdirection-hymms, counters
2x Red Elemental Blast-counterspells, blue guys
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress/Firespout-*
*
This is the spot i'm most unsure about. With access to dismember the Llawans seem like they'd be unimpressive sometimes but with most merfolk lists only packing 2x dismember in the 75 it may not even come up. Firespout is interesting because I'm running 3x Volcanic Island (unless someone convinces me otherwise) already for the red blasts and the red cost doesnt figure to be an issue.

Other sideboard cards I'm considering:
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Spell Pierce
Leyline of Sanctity
Chalice of the Void

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My current list for reference.

2 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
8 Blue Fetch
3 Grim Monolith

3 Emrakul
4 Hive Mind
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pact of Negation
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Slaughter Pact

[slaydo]

I have a tournament coming saturday as well and I have been testing this list. I am wondering if 3x boseju, who shelters all is warranted in a meta game with a lot of blue or if it ultimately would be better to run spell pierce and mental misstep instead. Note, this deck does not run any black sources. Help would be appreciated.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Show And Tell
4 Hive Mind
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Emrakul, the AEons Torn
3 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island
sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Firespout
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique

[Neuad]

After playing 2 decent sized tournys with a Cunning Wish version, I have to say that while it's cute, it doesnt really add too much to the deck, I think I won one game with it. Other then that it was just counter bait, and worked well for that.

First was just weekly legacy, 4 rounds cut to top8. Made top8, nothing special.


Second was blue power/blue duals. Ancestrall for first, Time Walk for second, Sea/Sea, Volcanics for 5th-8th.

I played against a bunch of nothing and won. Beat zoo, aggro loam, enchantress, and merfolk piloted by a player who had never played in a legacy tournament ever. Then drew/drew into top8, lost in top8 to UW control.

Not much of a report, and my list was extremely similiar to the one I posted a few posts up, just wanted to toss in my 2 cents about a Wish version.


TL;DR - Cunning Wish is cute but unnecessary in a deck this redudant.

[Moosedog]

Is this deck Dead?

[Finn]

If you just go by SCG results, it's a top banana. But I think that is the only venue it ever sees play in. Good riddance anyway. 3-card combos suck.

[Hawaii]

I think people are beginning to learn how to play against the deck, which is making it more difficult. I've cut Emrakuls for more lands because that seemed to be the largest problem the deck had. Not enough land or the high probability of losing to a single wasteland.

[KubaM]

I still play with this deck, and I'm willing to do so. I really like it's synergy. Nevertheless, sideboarding is very difficult :/ - it's hard for me to decide what to cut.
About cutting Emrakuls - I don't support it. In my opinion strong side of this deck is, that there is no single card (as far as I know) that stops BOTH our wincons.

[Finn]

Yikes. Cutting Emrakul seems kinda nutty. The biggest advantage this deck has going for it us the inability of opponents to side in hosers for both wincons.

[ThomasDowd]

If you just go by SCG results, it's a top banana. But I think that is the only venue it ever sees play in. Good riddance anyway. 3-card combos suck.


so how's mesmeric orb+ basalt monolith treating you these days?

jus' sayin'

[Finn]

just sayin'...nothing. That is not a 3 card combo.

[KobeBryan]

// Lands
2 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 mountain


// Creatures
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 Grim Monolith
4 Hive Mind
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
2 spell pierce

sideboard
4 leyline of sanctity
1 spell pierce
4 sneak attack
4 blightsteel colossus
2 red elemental blast

What do you think of the deck. Game two go another direction to catch people off guard.

[KubaM]

First of all you don't need Tundra, but you should run Underground Sea to be able to pay for Slaughter Pact.

[NesretepNoj]

Just wanna congratulate Christof Kovacs for making top 4 at Grand Prix Amsterdam. I too played Hive Mind (to a lesser impressive 6-3 record) and I can tell can tell from first hand, that it definitely wasn't a friendly meta for the deck. A report would be really nice...

[ddt15]

I played the GP list at a local tournament this weekend (100+ players). I missed top 8, finished 10th with 5-2.

R1 Burn 2-1
R2 WGB Junk 2-0
R3 NO/Pattern Hulk 2-0
R4 UGR Thresh 1-2
R5 Reanimator 2-1
R6 Combo Elves 0-2
R7 UW Stoneblade 2-1

The Thresh matchup was pretty close, first game I died from a fast Delver/Goyf clock. Second game I had T2 kill with double counter backup. Last game he hardcasted FoW to win the match.
Against Elves the first game I went T3 Emra, in his turn he went off through FoW casting his own Emra in the process. Second game I went T4 Show Emra at low life, he showed in Progenitus. Both guys got to top 8.

[Einherjer]

Hey, as Im playing SneakShow at the moment, I thougt why not just use the manabase + ShownTell + Emrakul for a UR HiveMind. Thats the list I came up with:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
6 Island
1 Mountain
3 Grim Monolith
//23

4 Show and Tell
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
1 Summoners Pact
1 Slaughters Pact
//20

//
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
//17

///60

So thats what I came up with!
Now some questions and comments:
Im playing red cause I like the possibility of Firespout/REB,Pyroblast and cause I got the lands.
I got a question,
Why is nearly everyone playing Leyline of Sancity in the Sideboard?

Thanks for your answers guys :)

Greetings

[4r71k]

I think you play the white Leyline because you can protect yourself from discard decks so nobody can steal you your combo only then if you see a lilliana :D

[leegoo]

Hey, as Im playing SneakShow at the moment, I thougt why not just use the manabase + ShownTell + Emrakul for a UR HiveMind. Thats the list I came up with:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
6 Island
1 Mountain
3 Grim Monolith
//23

4 Show and Tell
4 Hive Mind
3 Emrakul
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
1 Summoners Pact
1 Slaughters Pact
//20

//
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Ponder
//17

///60

So thats what I came up with!
Now some questions and comments:
Im playing red cause I like the possibility of Firespout/REB,Pyroblast and cause I got the lands.
I got a question,
Why is nearly everyone playing Leyline of Sancity in the Sideboard?

Thanks for your answers guys :)

Greetings

Leyline is there for discard heavy decks. This deck has nightmare's with any kind of discard (targeted or Hymn)
Burn is also a deck sometimes

As for your maindeck, you should certainly change mountain to underground sea... as you have no "real" need for basic mountain, and you do have a need to pay the upkeep on slaughter pact.

You also likely want a couple more City of Traitors and a few less Ancient Tomb... the 2 life adds up VERY fast, especially if you get stuck on the Emrakul plan.

That said, Firespout is pretty good in the board (you will have trouble with Merfolk even with it) and as far as the "extra" counters go, I'd much rather run Flusterstorm than Blast, as it's generally quite a bit more powerful in any situation you'd want REB (with the possible exception of Vendilion Clique) in, and has the ability to be a trump post Hive Mind if it comes to that for some reason.

just thoughts.

[Einherjer]

Are there any recent good results of HiveMind after GP Amsterdam or did DelverTempo really push us out of buisness?

[leegoo]

Are there any recent good results of HiveMind after GP Amsterdam or did DelverTempo really push us out of buisness?

I played it at Charlotte... it didn't go so well. RUG w/ maindeck stifle AND daze is a tough deck to beat. The games I did win against it involved Form of the Dragon out of the board. I really expected more Maverick than RUG after looking at the Invi tables, but either the open was a different beast or I just got miserable pairings ;)

After talking to Paul (Rietzl? - who crushed me) I do think Chalice of the Void in the board has some potential if you want to battle the Tempo RUG decks.