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Ace/Homebrew
03-21-2011, 11:44 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9jfPX62.jpg

I started playing EDH around the time of Lorwyn/Shards of Alara. I wanted to build a deck focused on the new planeswalker card type and had a few to choose from. Making this deck five colors gave me the excuse I needed to buy some dual lands but it also guaranteed that I had the option to play any future planeswalkers. As more were printed the deck grew into itself.

The deck was designed to exploit two things:
Most players use creature based strategies
Planeswalkers are difficult to destroy

38 Lands

Dual lands

Volcanic Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Taiga
Scrubland
Badlands
Bayou
Plateau
Tropical Island
Savannah

Shock Lands

Blood Crypt
Breeding Pool
Godless Shrine
Watery Grave
Temple Garden
Hallowed Fountain
Overgrown Tomb
Sacred Foundry
Steam Vents
Stomping Ground

Fetch Lands
Arid Mesa
Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Marsh Flats
Scalding Tarn
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta

Other Lands

Command Tower
Reflecting Pool
Creeping Tar Pit
Celestial Colonnade
Stirring Wildwood
Krosan Verge
Strip Mine
Karn's Bastion

31 Planeswalkers
Wrenn and Six
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Saheeli Rai
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Aminatou, the Fateshifter
Ashiok, Dream Render
Dack Fayden
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sarkhan Vol
Ral Zarek


Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Karn, Scion of Urza
Xenagos, the Reveler
Narset Transcendent
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Nahiri, the Harbinger
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Tezzeret the Seeker
Nissa, Vital Force
Angrath, the Flame-Chained


Vraska the Unseen
Vivien Reid
Will Kenrith
Ajani Unyielding
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Garruk, Cursed Huntsman
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Liliana, Dreadhorde General
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
These are the Super Friends. Only one of each planeswalker type allowed.

30 Other Cards


6 Planeswalker Support
Doubling Season
The Elderspell
Deepglow Skate
The Chain Veil
Rings of Brighthearth
Assemble the Legion


10 Board Wipes

Austere Command
Toxic Deluge
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Hallowed Burial
Merciless Eviction
Wrath of God
Cleansing Nova
Cyclonic Rift
Pernicious Deed


2 Card Selection Search for Azcanta
Sensei's Divining Top

4 Mana Rocks
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
Chromatic Lantern


4 Counterspells

Dovin's Veto
Countersquall
Counterspell
Mana Drain


4 Tutors Skyshroud Claim
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Bring to Light

The General
Cromat - Originally Cromat was selected to bind five colors. He has proven to be a reliable finisher capable of delivering 21 damage in three swings. His five activated abilities make him one of the most versatile creatures in Magic.

I would describe this deck as "competitive" but not "ultra-competitive". It is strongest against creature-heavy decks or decks that rely on the general.



I'm interested to hear about any cards I may have missed that a deck with a high planeswalker density can abuse!

bokwinkle
03-22-2011, 11:12 AM
I think there are some possible cards that aren't necessarilly the best options...but they are still possibles:

Steady Progress
Throne of Geth
Thrummingbird
Lux Cannon
Clockspinning
Contagion Clasp
Gilder Bairn

There's a proliferate deck that's wandering around that is pretty funny and you should take a look at, it runs a ton of artifacts though (something I dont' think you can do without neudering your mana base) so I'm not sure how helpful it will be.

I disagree with a couple of your creature choices, but it's more flavor than anything. I'd personally run Bringer of the Blue Dawn and Bringer of the Black Dawn over Frost Titan and Wurmcoil Engine because I prefer creatures that add utility, rather than just "beef" - but again, that's just personal preferance - frost titan and Wurmcoil are obviously fantastic cards.

The other cards that I thought you'd take advantage of are:

Lighthouse Chronologist
Savor the Moment
Time Stretch
Time Warp
Walk the Aeons

Chronologist seems relevant because of counter manipulation, savor and walk seem relevant because you have no need for your mana once you have a couple of PW's on the board - I'd actually consider armegeddon to lock things up. Stretch and warp...well they're just good.

Then there were a few utility cards that I was surpised to see you not playing with

Eternal Witness
Sterling Grove
Duplicant
Vindicate
Jace Beleren
Enlightened Tutor

I'm mostly surprised about E-Wit, Grove and Jace since you run sun titan...I know you aren't running 2 forms of any PW's, but the second jace is pretty good and low on the curve too. I think Sterling Grove is the real gem in this group though - it kinda seems like a no-brainer, it either finds your enchantments or protects them...

Lastly I'd probably run Filter lands (shadowmoor block) or Artifact mana over the Shards Tri-Lands - but that's just preferance.

Very cool deck though, you did a nice job of making it competitive but not just utilizing the colors to make something broken. Very cool.

Ace/Homebrew
03-22-2011, 08:51 PM
Thanks for the comments!


Steady Progress
Throne of Geth
Thrummingbird
Lux Cannon
Clockspinning
Contagion Clasp
Gilder Bairn

Gilder Bairn would be nuts... unfortunately he needs to be tapped to actually use him.
Contagion Clasp lost its spot to Contagion Engine. Throne doesn't have enough fodder with only 9 artifacts.


I disagree with a couple of your creature choices, but it's more flavor than anything. I'd personally run Bringer of the Blue Dawn and Bringer of the Black Dawn over Frost Titan and Wurmcoil Engine because I prefer creatures that add utility, rather than just "beef" - but again, that's just personal preferance - frost titan and Wurmcoil are obviously fantastic cards.

Yeah I'd say those are personal flavor options. The bringers are also a cycle of formidable creatures. =)


Lighthouse Chronologist
Savor the Moment
Time Stretch
Time Warp
Walk the Aeons

The Chronologist is a little blue heavy for my liking...
Although I could see Time Warp replacing Mind Twist.
Armaggedon would get me banned from my play group =)


Then there were a few utility cards that I was surpised to see you not playing with

Eternal Witness
Sterling Grove
Duplicant
Vindicate
Jace Beleren
Enlightened Tutor

E-Wit is an excellent card but Naya Charm took her spot. I use it for tapping down creatures more often than grabbing something from the graveyard.
Vindicate lost its spot to Maelstrom Pulse
Sterling Grove just doesn't have enough to protect. I'd run E Tutor over it and I don't run that...
You bring up a good point about Sun Titan and make me question if Inferno Titan should have that spot... Sun Titan mostly recurs my lands. There's only 12 or so permanents he can actually pull back. Hmmmmmm

I'm fairly confident in my land base. I had playtested the m10/m11 dual lands in place of the Shards Tri-lands and regretted it.

bokwinkle
03-23-2011, 10:57 AM
Yeah, most of my suggestions are player preferance, and not much that is going to drastically change or improve the deck.

After goldfishing the deck a bit (I have a program that allows me to build decks and goldfish) I now understand what you mean by the lack of targets for enlightened tutor and sterling grove...there just isn't enough there. I found that when i went to make changes that I was adding a lot of "big mana" type stuff to tutor for, which didn't make a lot of sense with that many planeswalkers. Generally the deck lost focus and degenerated pretty quickly, so I tend to agree with your assessment here.

In testing I had a hell of time finding a use for Tezz, Skullclamp, Lightning Greaves, and Sun Titan. Crucible also seemed a bit forced, although it did help with mana screw a couple of times. I felt like these cards could be re-considered for draw spells and/or powerful creatures. I also found myself wanting Tooth and Nail and Eternal Witness a lot. The deck is pretty creature light, so the equipment was a tough sell for me, and you already talked about Sun Titan.

I did make some use of Tezz by swaping the tri-lands with some good artifact mana though, it allowed me to force through some great plays - I really think this avenue is worth exploring further. At first it seemed like a bad choice because most of the artifact mana was colorless, but there are a few gems like Everflowing Chalice and Coalition Relic that pair well with counter manipulation. And eventually I was seeing earlier PW's and the deck gained a bit of speed - quite a bit of speed if I saw Tezz.

I also found chronologist very blue heavy and generally win-more...but he was pretty fun...lol. If I were going to run just one turn spell in this deck I would pick Walk the Aeons over Time Warp. The 1 mana more is insignificant in EDH, and you don't have to buy it back if you need the mana - but it's nice to have the option.

I've really enjoyed fishing this out though. I think I might try and build a 5-color Planewalker deck as well - there will be some significant differences, but a bunch of planesalkers will be present.

Ace/Homebrew
03-23-2011, 08:15 PM
I'm glad you had fun testing it out! Did you have a chance to play Maelstrom Nexus?

I agree with you about the weak slots!

Tezzeret the Seeker - If I play Tezz then my first move is usually dropping 3 for Rings of Brighthearth. The following turn I'll kill Tezz by removing 1 and doubling the effect with Rings to get Sol Ring and Top.
I was hoping the new Tezz would be something I could play in this deck. Unfortunately I have no way to abuse Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. I will more than likely keep Tezz until a better PW comes along (he's foil... and not the ugly Duel Decks one).

Sun Titan - I'll start looking for an Inferno Titan. I have a bias against the Inferno Titan cause I'm an idiot, but he really does fit the slot better. My reasoning for running the Titan cycle over the Bringer cycle or others is the ETB ability. As you noticed I run VERY few creatures; mostly mana dorks. I don't expect any creature I play to live long enough to attack. Sounds stupid but at least I'm not disappointed when it does die, and if it lives then it's a bonus. With the Titan cycle I get an immediate benefit just for playing the creatures.

Skullclamp - Broken with Bitterblossom or Elspeth... But after looking through my list, those really are the only cards it is good with. I'm keeping Bitterblossom and Elspeth no matter what, but I'll need to reconsider the clamp.

Lightning Greaves - This was a test slot that I put in when I added the Titan cycle (imagine the deck with 5 fewer creatures than it currently has!). It's stupid with any of the Titans. Otherwise it kind of sits there. Before I added the Titan's this slot was actually a Sunforger. When I first built the deck I had each charm from the 2 tri-color cycles in it cause options are good. Especially options you can tutor for with Sunforger (each charm has either red or white and the CMC is 3!). I was also able to tutor for Undermine, Double Negative, and Punish Ignorance. Eventually only Bant and Naya Charms were left and the novelty of Sunforging for answers wore off...

Crucible stays! It's my most common Target for Demonic Tutor in the first 4 turns as long as I've already cracked a fetch. And I already mentioned Mind Twist is on the chopping block, again preferably for an upcoming planeswalker...

bokwinkle
03-30-2011, 04:03 PM
Yeah, I've played with Nexus before, it's a blast. Personally, if I was going to tutor for nexus a lot I'd probably run some evoke creatures and other stuff with alternate casting costs...at least Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter - especially with all of the 4 CMC walkers in here.

Tezz - I think you have room to make him broken with just a few swaps of Artifacts for Lands...the accelleration really makes this thing hum.

Titans - it depends on your playgroup. In my group I prefer bringers because people have a tendancy to work on their own board position rather than disrupt other people's boardstates - so I like to force big/dumb dudes on the board. Also the Bringers have a funny interaction with Nexus. I do appreciate the 187 feel of the titans though.

Skullclamp - I'd replace it with blue sun's zenith, it pairs well with your countermagic, and it could also benefit from the long games associated with trying to ultimate PW's. This is another card that could benefit from artifact accelleration as well.

Greaves - I hate this card. I don't even like it in decks where it's really good...lol. It is good with titans, I cannot debate that, and it can give your opponents fits if they are relying on sorcery speed removal...but I just can't get on board with it, because every time I draw it I'm on turn 50 and the board is clogged. Oh...and you can't tutor for Undermine with Sunforger...lol (I know you meant absorb). I've actually made an EDH deck specifically built around sunforger...it's a great card, but it doesn't take long to figure out that it's versatility is really limited in EDH because 4 mana instants are generally pretty underpowered (I also tried to use Isochron Scepter to take advantage of all of the cheap instants and I still couldn't get it to work).

Crucible does provide some nice fixing - but there has to be some more things you can do with it rather that just provide fixing - especially if you are tutoring for it so often. There's an aweful lot of land out there that can provide some versatility to the deck - even something like Horizon Canopy would be decent.

Ace/Homebrew
04-01-2011, 11:46 PM
I just don't see myself taking out the Tri-lands for Artifact lands.
I increased the board wipe count. The deck originally had a lot of sweeps. It was a mistake to take them out...

bokwinkle
04-06-2011, 09:38 AM
Well, if you're going to be doing the 1v1's it makes sense to pack more removal because your dudes just won't come online in time.

In other news....Karn? I think he's just one of a possible 2 that are coming in May. He seems a bit steep in the CMC, but he seems like a blast to play.

Also, I'm not talking about ading artifact land, I'm talking about artifact mana (grim monolith, mana crypt, etc) - but I think you knew that.

Ace/Homebrew
04-09-2011, 12:46 PM
You're right about artifact mana. I'm going to start looking around for the two you mentioned.


In other news....Karn?

I didn't like Karn at first because I was distracted by the ultimate ability. Now I'm anxious for May so I can put him in.

Ace/Homebrew
07-24-2011, 03:29 AM
Updated the OP with my current list.
Made some changes but looking to find cards to replace Umezawa's Jitte and Double Negative.

I upped the 3cmc or less permanent count cause Sun Titan's back in. Added Pernicious Deed, Eternal Witness, Aura of Silence, Coalition Relic, and Tormod's Crypt. Ideally the replacements would be ramp but things like Darksteel Ingot just don't seem good enough... Looking for ideas!

Guy I Don't Know
07-24-2011, 11:51 AM
Nihil Spellbomb also cycles, maybe better than crypt.

Ace/Homebrew
08-06-2011, 05:09 PM
On the occasion that I have Tezzeret the Seeker and Rings of Brighthearth out I like being able to find 2 zero costing artifacts... Don't know if that's really a solid justification but that's my reasoning.

Ace/Homebrew
04-19-2012, 11:53 PM
photos for those interested...

http://i.imgur.com/qHvNjN0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6uYsNJ1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VJ2KOpi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FX9HAjj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8eywFMo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZfASW0G.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/92jTTxM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Xl5d81n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BBkyect.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1nxkM3j.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IWUrTGw.jpg

Ace/Homebrew
05-26-2012, 10:04 PM
Found out there is a photo limit of 11 per post...

http://i.imgur.com/KKGaSFT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9zdKkZn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AeYE1yV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gvsOcnv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ItHnbfc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qGjYfbD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VOPhQ8W.jpg

The Treefolk Master
05-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Really nice FOIL deck.

I've got a Sliver Queen 5CC deck, more "unfair cars" (Mind Twist, Holistic Wisdom + Time Walk effects, tutors, etc), but I'm considering a switch tu Walkers for the sheer fun of it. Currently playing Superfriends in T2 (lame format), and lovin' it (relative to other options available, like the uber fun Delver deck).ç

I'd look at adding Garruk Relentless, might be better than Primal Hunter.

Isn't Sarkhan, the Mad better than its Vol counterpart?

Ace/Homebrew
05-27-2012, 03:55 PM
Thanks! It's getting there.
Holistic Wisdom looks like a blast to play (and it works with planeswalkers). I'm having doubts about how effective Bitterblossom is for me. HW might be a good replacement.

Sarkhan the Mad's only useful ability for me would be the card draw and the top of my curve is high enough that he wouldn't draw too many for me. I've chosen Sarkhan Vol and Garruk, Primal Hunter over the suggested versions because of their interaction with Doubling Season. Both ultimate immediately and flood the board with double tokens.

Qige
08-14-2013, 03:40 AM
Hey Ace,

I also am playing a 5cc Superfriends deck, however mine is going in a similar route as yours but I'm using more token generators, PW that creature tokens (garruk/eslpeth/sorin/etc) and enchants like the DGM red/white. Bitterblossom, elzdrazi. etc. Anyhow I modelled some of my card choices based on yours. But I also notice maybe some of your card choices could be changed.

Arcane Sanctum
Seaside Citadel

I'm not a fan of CiPT. Try the white blue check land, and maybe the black blue? They almost always come into play active on T2. I think those lands are just horrible, and slow your deck down a bit. Also try City of Brass maybe?

Now with the new legend rule, I think running multiple PW is fine. Jace AoT has been great for me, he weakens and helps defend our team, he has fact or fiction which is great, and his ultimate is awesome. Also sorin LoI is awesome for pumping out lifelink attackers/blockers.

Sarkhan Vol

I think he's bad. He does absolutely nothing, we can't combo using his Act of Treason and a sac outlet. Ya you can drop him with doubling seasons? But you can also drop Ajani v3 and do the same with cat army. He's just not worth it imo.

Also hows FoW? Seem's like its an overcosted counterspell because we're playing 5 colors. I think Mindbreak Trap is just better due to the exiling and potenial.

Now for board wipes how come your arent running DoJ as well? 4 mana wipes are just awesome. And trust me on this, seriously test Evacuation. This card is insane. EoT instant board wipe. Yeah it goes to their hands, but it bides you some turns before it comes down again. This card looks like crap on paper, but trust me. Playing with it, you'll understand. Same goes with cyclonic rift. I think these are a must. They do what you want your deck to do.

Try luminarch Ascension, early its a house. Late its a diversion for your planewalkers. Also, Obzedat's Aid lets us recur our PW. Has been excellent so far. I really like your deck btw :)

Ps: Sterling Grove deserves a mention, im trying to test it out. I have more enchants than you, but I still think its solid, esp with its low cmc and activation cost.

Edit: Did you try the m14 resonator yet? I think ill give it a shot.

Ace/Homebrew
08-14-2013, 02:47 PM
Hey Ace
Hey Qige, welcome to the Source!
I'd be interested to see your list to compare. Post it here if it is real close to mine, otherwise you could always start a thread.

I agree with your comments regarding the Shards of Alara tri-color lands. City of Brass would be an upgrade. The two I use are remnants of a time when I used the full cycle. They survived because they make :w: and :u:. My dream replacements for them are as-yet-unprinted man-lands... Well, maybe just one more man-land, preferably :u:/:g:. There is a very strong case to replace the other with City of Brass.

The updated "uniqueness" rule definitely favors a Superfriends strategy! I did briefly search Gatherer for planeswalkers after the announcement but wasn't struck by any of the duplicates as a must-include. I suspect I use more creature sweeping spells than you. Unless I'm playing Cromat, my board generally has 0 creatures on it until suddenly it has an overwhelming amount. Three-mana Ajani is just plain bad in my build as his first 2 abilities will either be dead or win-more.
I must defend Sarkhan Vol! His -2 is not often used, but when it is it is to great effect. His haste ability sometimes goes to waste but when I do puke out dudes, he gets them swinging right away.

FoW sometimes is a 5 mana counterspell, but my meta has the occasional broken deck that needs to be kept in check. I fought its inclusion for a very long time, but now that I've given in I do not see myself cutting it. I am probably at the minimum blue count to make sure I can play it for free though (which isn't great).

DoJ got cut when Supreme Verdict was printed. Strict upgrade. I prefer DoJ to Evacuation, although Cyclonic Rift warrants consideration!
Resonator doesn't seem to work with this deck because there are very few triggered abilities... Rings of Brighthearth is nuts though!

Thanks for the input. I am planning to pick up a Deathrite Shaman tonight to replace Nature's Lore. There will be 3 more planeswalkers in Theros and I am hoping at least one of them is playable so I can replace Phyrexian Metamorph with it. I hope to update those photos soon as well... There has been lots of changes and foil upgrades since those were posted!

Qige
08-15-2013, 03:52 AM
Yeah, I'll post my list when I get a chance haha. I'm still working on it, I need the onslaught fetches and 9/10 dual lands lol. So I'm running a bit more lands like the orchards and some check lands a little bit more mana rocks to compensate for now. I really like that Assemble the Legions card. It gets insane pretty fast.

I'm not sure what direction Deathrite Shaman is taking for your deck. He either destroys your recurring with crucible and or sun titan, and his lose 2 life ability seems irrelevant. What do you want him to do? I think he's a complete dud late game; sure he may be good at the beginning but he just hinders your deck later if you do draw a titan or Crucible. Just play lotus cobra if you want the temporary mana ramp. I think you should consider krosan grip. This card is combobreak galore. It destroys omniscience. Which is becoming some dumb shit in my meta. At a gaming store near where I work 3 regulars are always running infinite combos. I need cards like these to keep them in check. I think it should replace hull breach. 2 for 1's are nice yes. But Stopping someone from winning the game on the spot is much better.

And I agree supreme verdict is an upgrade, but its also another card I would like to have in my hand. Having 2-3 board wipes in my hand is great. And I'm still set in stone about evacuation. I think it may be the most powerful board wipe in our deck. The instant speed is just too good. That being said, I'm not gonna pay 7 mana for rout.

Whats your opinion on Obezdat's aid?

AND OH YEAH. GIDEON CHAMPION OF JUSTICE. Dude hahahah he's insane. he's a card you have to test. Oh my god man. He's just a beat stick. One of the best planewalkers for me so far. haha . trust me man. Drop him in and play with him for a while. Also read his +1 ability. Combos insanely well with doubling seasons since we are putting on a counter for each creature ;). Lets say you play him and +1 him ok? hes lets say at 10 maybe? Now everyone is scared your gonna go off and destroy shit. Brings hate to him, and what do you care? If not you have a 10/10 next turn. Man run him. Test him. Play him. He's insane!

Qige
09-14-2013, 09:04 PM
http://imgur.com/a/loD05

Yeah that's my deck so far. Like I said next big purchases are the true dual lands. I need 8 more. And the 5 onslaught fetches which, I'll replace the checks with. My mana base currently is fine. I rarely get mana screwed. That alter is a bayou. I think You should run city of brass. I also Like the two orchards. The one that taps for opponents land is better IMO than reflecting pool. Although once I get a copy I'm going to add that in. The tomb is good because of my high density of mana rocks and allows walkers to come out a turn earlier. Very good card. The terramorphic and wilds are shit. Haha. Until I get more lands, I'll swap them out. I really hate CiPT lands. Its too slow. Gem stone mine is actually not bad, since early turns it allows us to hit 4-6 drops where we really need to be in color as most of our walkers are in that CMC range.

Ok so rather than my Okay mana base. The deck is pretty much running good. I'm going to go over my choices and I'm going to criticize your cards. And you do the same for me :). I want our decks to be as stable as possible.

So for starters I'm running Progenitus. I'm going to give you my opinions, Why I think shes stronger than cromat throughout the course of my description.

Ok. Elspeth v1. Is good. Ultimate into play with double seasons. Tokens are great. Her 2nd + ability is pretty much useless, however she has a really strong ultimate.
Elspeth v2. Great that she gets us life back from all the chips of damage we take from fetch lands/shocks/ and ancient tomb. Many games I'm below 30 and they havent even hit me once lol. Her ultimate is scary and clears the way for complex board states so I can just cast Progenitus after. With doubling seasons, shes still alive and with elspeth 1's emblem it's pretty much a win.

Gideon always good. Gideon v2, he's another type of rattle snake like elspeth being able to reset the board. He draws attention, even if you don't want to ultimate, everyone at the table is still going to be looking at him. He's a great beater. At 4 cmc, he's a walker we can play, loyality him up, and he will probably live to the next turn and you can board wipe or what not and you still have board advantage. I recommend you play test with him.

Jace AoT. Awesome. His fact or fiction ability has always been above par, allowing me to get another walker or board wipe if needed. I really like that he can dig 3 cards.

Ok tezz. If you drop him turn 5 . (well due to my mana rocks usually turn 4) He can put the disk into play if the board is out of your control or if its in control you can grab o-Stone. Both of these permanent board wipes are excellent. Also great for ramping using the mana rocks.

Lilianna Veil. I think she does a great job in the deck. More often than not in the early game I don't use any of her abilities . Late game when we get more cards we can afford to pitch some from our hand into the graveyard and we start by doing damage to everybody. -2 sac a creature is also good for dealing with problem generals that are too quick for this deck. She is also 3 cmc. So more often than not we have nothing else to cast on T3. AND she can ult with doubling seasons.

Garruk v1. I'm playing progentius and it allows me to get him out sooner. I really like his ramp. I agree he's not the best walker and can eventually be replaced. But I really like cheaper walkers and his tokens can be useful and allows me to push damage through with my general.
Garruk 2GGG. AWESOME. this guy is bonkers with progenitus out. 10 cards. I'm winning the next turn or that turn almost always.
Garruk Flips. MEH.. he does things sometimes. He's going to get cut.

I run 12 board clears. I need a hallowed burial. Evacuation allows you to beat haste decks or just destroy someones tempo. You are going to need evacuation and cyclonic rift against cards like Eldrazi monument and these new Gods. Damnation isn't going to be enough. O-Stone and Disk. Run them. They are tutorable, they are recurable with Obzedat Aid. And they require the opponent to do a play around me style. And lets say you have that, and lets say one of the lillys or karn, not you start chipping their hand. and you lock them out.

Mana vessel of endless rest. Or whatever. Haha! I like it. I've tucked reanimation targets from decks, I've recycled my own spells back into my deck. I can abuse it with venser. Haha man. until you play with it you won't appreciate it. Mana lith is just whatever. I'm also aware there is that spectral lantern. But I'm kind of happy with my mana base. Having alot of any color producing mana rocks really makes 5 color easy and ramping towards progenitus easier. Feliwar stone is great too. Because of its low cmc. Allows us to also get something out of our counter spell's cascade if nexus is out.

Ok one problem with his deck is gas. We need huge amount of cards. So Sphinx's rev comes in very handy late game, we can get 5+ cards on it usually and some life back. garruk with progen is amazing like I said. Also since he dies as soon as he minus' you can Obezdat Aid him again if you need more cards. Progen also Cascades for anything in the deck with nexus. Another reason why I love him. I'm running 1 creature. Malestrom wanderer. Because 1st he's a 3 for one. Like I said, we need gas. secondly I don't like running creatures since most of our cards destroy creatures and if we have creatures that enables our opponents removal spells. he also grabs me a lot of cards with garruk. and enables my general to swing with haste.

Luminarch ascension. Is love and hate relationship. I have mixed feelings because it does ruin cascading a 3 cmc spell. Bittblossom is shit. I'm going to replace it for the new elspeth. and that assemble the legions card. I found to be great. You kind of just drop it. And you create defense and attackers. Another note on Obezdat aid. This card has been STRONG. Usually if you have a dead walker in your GY, its because your opponent found it as a nuisance and being able to recur it is great. And yeah lets us recur ostone and disk.


Ok so obviously my decks borrows a bunch of your ideas with the stranglehold and bant charm. and aura of silence. I like your choices alot man ! But now I have some questions and comments.

Sarkhan Vol. Honestly. He's useless. His + abilities never did anything for me. If you want haste, just play malestrom like I do and you get way more value out of them than sarkhan. His ultimate is just whatever. 4 dragons that can't even 1 shot somebody is kinda weak. I see absolutely nothing to justify playing him. Lilianna Veil is going to do more work for you and shes a 3 drop. His ultimate is just too weak if thats the justification you are using.

Gravetitan? He's bad. you drop tokens. and so what? Your hindering your board wipes now. Run assemble the legions its going to mass you more dudes and you can still wipe the board. And it combos with doubling seaons x2. Phrexian metamorph... What do you want to copy? Ask your self this. A creature? I rather just wipe the board. It does not put you ahead. What artifact would you want to copy. This card just seems okay or miss. Deathrite shaman. I don't understand.

What's control magic doing for you? Again. Would you rather clear the board or would you rather steal a creature frailly. Plus it does not get haste making this card even weaker. What does batterskull do for you? You can't tutor it with tezz. It just seems out of place. I think haunted plate mail might do more for you because you can directly tutor it. It doesn't seem to fit the deck. It can block 1 creature and do 4 damage. Seems lackluster.

Rite of replication. Card is powerful no doubt. Now at 9 MANA. I want to be winning the game. putting 5 threats which I have to rely my opponent to have since we're running barely any creatures, is just too... weak. Would you rather have 5 cool monsters or would you rather the board be clear? At 4 CMC i Rather play DoJ. Wouldnt you? Hull breach.. meh. sorcery speed is just meh. Run return to dust. Kills gods. Or Krosan grip is amazing. I'm going to put return to dust in as well. Maelstrom Pulse. Destroy is becoming weaker. Not going to kill gods, sorcery speed. Rather wipe the board or improve my board. I think for the most part ramping into our 5 drop PW is going to be more useful.

Okay so Cromat? He's awkward a little no? Most of our planeswalkers were casting is between turn 4-7. When do you actually cast him? I almost every game get progentius out. every land I draw after Turn 8 becomes more useful in achieving him. Maybe your deck is better suited for him, but I imagine him being a little awkward to cast. Esp since you need to use mana for his abilities.

I like library, p. deed, bribery and vampiric tutor. Demonic tutor too probably. I'm going to get some copies and try them out.

Like you said before DoJ is worse than Supreme verdict, but I believe that DoJ is just straight up better than cloning creatures. Not going to edit this post. haha. Tired man. By the way I played in an edh tournament. I got 4 - 1 with this deck. Lost to rhys on a 3 card hand. Haha. I would have beat him next turn. But he had that green mythic card to recur his entire GY into his hand and yeah.. I had latern a land and DoJ. haha I couldn't believe it man. I almost beat his aggro token deck lol.

Edit: I just bought decree of pain. Seem's solid. and Desertion seems way stronger than FoW. I'm going to throw that in. And a couple of other cards. :)

Ace/Homebrew
09-17-2013, 09:51 PM
That's a lot of text! :tongue:

Thanks for posting your deck for comparison. Our decks are mostly the same, but it appears card availability and personal preference influenced many of the differences. For instance, you chose Progenitus. In order to realistically play him ever you need more mana rocks, which you have. I chose Cromat because he draws less attention from a group, and he has 5 abilities everyone forgets about that actually make him quite formidable. He is also easier to cast multiple times in a game. Both our generals are essentially 3 turn clocks though.

Some points:
You do not run Top. I use Top like crazy. When you complete your fetchlands, consider it.
Control Magic dominates certain opponents. What does a Kaalia deck do if I steal Kaalia?
Metamorph is getting cut now that he isn't also removal.
I have chosen not to duplicate Planewalkers in my list. It's a personal preference.
Rite of Replication is pretty good. It is an army in a card. You play Sylvan Primordial? Okay, I get 5. Or I can just target my own Grave Titan.

On Planeswalkers:
You have 21 planeswalkers! I strive to reach that number. I will replace Metamorph with one when I finally like a new one they print.
You commented, "More often than not in the early game I don't use any of her abilities" about Liliana of the Veil. That is exactly why I do NOT use her.
Maybe re-read Sarkhan Vol. His ultimate puts 20 flying power on the board. He makes my Titans swing immediately netting even greater advantage. His -2 removes a blocker and lets you swing with it. He also ultimates in 3 turns...

In defense of:
Grave Titan - He'll trade with just about any other creature. He's 10 power for 6 mana and that grows with each swing. He also allows me to be offensive because he leaves behind 2 blockers.
Batterskull - Again, I can swing and still block. It also passively gains me life which will deter some attacks. It also refuses to die. All I need is 3 open mana. I can Wrath the board and continue to apply pressure while still having a life gaining blocker.
Deathrite Shaman - I am still testing this guy out. He is a mana dork as well as graveyard hate. He can also get damage through when it is relevant. I like him so far, but it is still too soon to say how long he'll last.

On your build:
Isn't Recurring Insight just better than Sphinx's Revelation. It is only 1 color and if you spend a total of 6 on SoR, you get 3 cards and 3 life. Chances are you'll get 5-10 cards off the same mana investment with Insight.
I also used to run Luminarch Ascension and Bitterblossom. I do not anymore. :wink:

Qige
09-19-2013, 05:23 AM
Haha yeah sorry.

Top yeah, as soon as I complete the fetch cycle that's a definitive. Plus to be honest, I used it only once and that was in cube. But damn it was pretty good then. Haha. I see your point about control magic. Now the thing where I'm not sure what is a better play is to steal one creature or just run your extra DoJ? Like, maybe because I virtually run one creature, but for example any colors running white or green is easily going to take off control magic. Like Kaila for instance, all they need to do is return to dust or naturalize type spell to get rid of it. I agree it does shut down certain decks, but I don't see an advantage over just wrathing. Again your running a few more creatures than me, but you have to consider the better board state since this is a control deck. Like lets take zur, its unlikely that by the time you aquire a control magic is it going to do anything for you? I see a point where he can't recast zur by having him sent back to the command zone, but I'm not sure. Is there any reason we want to steal a creature, surely its not for damage. As in your kalia example. You would steal her to disrupt the deck from recasting her. I believe and I'm going to play test Desertion, I think it does what you want it to do (as what you want control magic to do for you) but it is not fragile where it can be removed, and it has an upside of stealing an artifact as well as the general AND its straight up a hard counter at worst. Plus its 5 cmc and can cascade on nexus and hopefully resolving a wrath on stack before the steal ;) HUGE haha. But I think it's straight up better than 3 color render silent, unless you got some dumb combo decks circulating. I just dislike auras in general anyways. Haha.

Ok fair enough on multiplaneswalker issue, although I think you should be running the new elspeth as well. But Batterskull, can you compare this one to the new Gideon for me? Gideon slams down a turn earlier, can be much larger than batterskull would hope to be, I can board wipe not worrying about having to bounce a fragile artifact. Plus if I'm ahead I have the option of exiling. Now is the lifelink what's keeping your decision? Would you play batterskull if it was a 4/4 creature with vil/life and a bounce ability? Remember it's alot harder to remove an x/x indestructible planeswalker that blinks into a creature. If they kill your creature (germ) They are slowing your deck massively you will probably most of the time have nothing else to equip it too, and you have to pay the mana to recast a 0/0. You have to compare the pros/cons of each card, I know you said you do not like the same walker, but also you want an optimal deck. To me I see gideon as the stronger player in this role. Remember the less creatures we run is the bigger advantage we have because that effectively creatures become dead cards/vanilla creatures/ and wasted triggers.

Rite is a good card no doubt. But the fact that your deck has a low creature count is not going to sell me that card. That's cool you can do it on grave titan... But that doesn't win you the game. And plus it only becomes active when they have a threat otherwise its just a dead card. Realistically this card is a 4 mana clone... and I don't see enough of a justification to run it.

And grave titan, do you like assemble the legions? It does the same thing grave titan does. EXCEPT it does not impact the board as soon as it comes down. Which is shitty. BUT it is only 5 mana. And it's not as easily removed as creatures are in edh.

Ok LA and BB are out.

Recurring Insight.. sorcery........ ugh haha. Plus I have to rely my opponents to have cards in their hands. Sphinx is better in my deck than yours, I have more mana rocks and I need the life gain to make up from early hits and shocks/fetchs/cityofbrass. Plus I can sphinx for 0 and cascade for a counter /mana rock / On their turn when theyre casting that game winning spell. HAHA strats my friend ;) haha. I'll stop using nexus in my examples. lol. Ok. Deathrite shaman since like 88% of the time he will come in after turn 2... what does he do? He just clogs your hand. and run DOJ. there is no way you can tell me that 1 drop dude is better than DOJ in 95% of board scenarios and the early game. against an aggressive deck I rather have a doj in my hand than make a turn 1 shaman.

hey regarding lilly. even though shes on the board. Lets say I wrath. NOW its almost impossible for my opponent to come back . I can easily sac a creature they play on their turn after the wrath. where my other walkers are building points. She's great so I don't have to use wraths as spot removal for the most part. She may be win more. I need to playtest more with her.

and sarkhan vs maelstrom what do you like? I'm all in on maelstrom haha. Dude is awesome . he also enables haste, gives you 2 extra spells ... could be your titans ;) . but i realize he is 8 mana. Plus hes a beatstick too. haha. i Just hate sarkhan ahahaha.

THEROS. Ok New Elspeth and that steam agury . Fiction or Fact. < if you run this card run obezdat aid. < this card has been high performance for me. Anything you watching from theros?

PS: Maybe decree of Pain is what sphinx should be replaced with. Since It does everything I want to do in this deck.

Qige
10-29-2013, 05:51 PM
Regrowth or Obezdat's Aid? I'm not sure what's better :/

Amon Amarth
10-31-2013, 07:42 PM
I like Regrowth a lot more in my 5C deck but it's quite a bit different than Ace's. There really is a lot to be gained from having a smaller mana curve not to mention that it is also easier to cast at only one color of mana.

Ace/Homebrew
11-06-2013, 10:29 PM
I agree with Amon. Regrowth.

Updated photos. I am at 85% foil/unfoilable.
With Commander 2014 out, I believe I will be replacing Damnation with Toxic Deluge.

http://i.imgur.com/ql4wWKT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xMG7h0j.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cV2BuID.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pc4OvoX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gx90eaI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lr6FHAu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M67jT3Q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V4yDhNS.jpg

Ace/Homebrew
11-06-2013, 10:33 PM
http://i.imgur.com/jUKaQba.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S5XLlsz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MuA9lcB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pUfIqWQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fEmio5K.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gQzlX3r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4MbSRl5.jpg

Ace/Homebrew
11-06-2013, 10:36 PM
http://i.imgur.com/w6Jm8H1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NcpqoKy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bv8AOjA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fAgAW9Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Yn0KHit.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SDpdPcZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TqrZrhm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0UM5w6u.jpg

Qige
12-18-2013, 12:23 AM
Hey, alright I've been grinding EDH at events and various stores against a bunch of metas.

The deck has changed a lot, since last time. I got top in, scroll rack (need to test), Topor Orb, Sylvan Library, Demonic/ Vampiric tutors. Crucible Worlds, Desertion, Rhystic Studies, toxic deluge. Found out what was useless and what not. Spent a load of money on everything but the remaining dual lands and onslaught fetches... and I bought Korean/Japanese foils lol... (Which was dumb now that I think about it haha) . I'll reup my deck soon too. Running like 12 board wipes. still need a manacrypt/drain. Been noticing bribery/ and other creature effects are just whiffing on my deck. So I don't know if I want to bump up some creatures like Sun titan.

4 mana board wipes like DOJ DAmn WoG and Supreme have been allstars against all of those aggressive decks. I'm still kinda debating you on a damnation over a control magic. Topor orb is a house man. That is a sleeper card. Shuts down a bunch of stuff. Desertion is a great card too. I think it's just a better control magic and at worst its a hardcasted FoW. Plasm capture been testing with it. EH. better for casting progenitus. But I dunno, probably will cut it for mana drain. Its just really awkward mana costing. How come your not running ancient tomb? You run mana crypt/sol ring. Also Celestial Colonade is awkward and more often than not, annoying. I think Garruk Wildspeaker is better for your deck. I've actually come to like him a lot. Combo's crazy with rings. Puts a blocker. Ramps you in double color's with only one source. Doesn't cost GGG. But I run both because I draw 10 cards off progenitus. Which is pretty insane. I get Progenitus out almost every game so there's no problems there. Again against aggressive decks in 1 v1 in partial paris mul I always try to keep a 4 CMC boardwipe. Usually blow them up on turn 4 after some damage and I can start taking control. Although I think I'm running to many board wipes. Austure Command / Akroma Vengence / Disk. I think I need only 1 of the 3. Disk can be tutor'd with Tez which is great.

Decided not to play any recur spells. vessel of endless rest does just that with any tutor. That mana rock is definitely way better than darksteel ignot btw. I've shut recursion targets in other people's GY to the bottom. Also great with Venser. But usually recycle a terminus or something back in. Card is beyond great. Top is great haha. First time I've played with it . And no new elspeth? She's not bad. I think I would replace her over deathrite shaman. < I dunno why you like this card. Decree of pain. (EH) GIDEON IS HORRIBLE. Goddamn. Every time I've had him in my hand he does nothing. He can only target one player and I rather play a wrath over him. He was just bad in every situation unless you have PW's out which means your just in a win more situation. He was just awful.

But yeah dude, been smashing out games. Winning quite a bit, deck is getting better for sure. running like 16 walkers. Ill upload my deck sometime soon.

EDIT: Beautiful deck man :)

Ace/Homebrew
12-20-2013, 12:26 AM
I have slowed down on Legacy and am playing more and more EDH, so I also have gotten some testing in.

Updates!

-Damnation
-Phyrexian Metamorph
+Toxic Deluge
+Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

PW count is at 17. I hope to replace Rhystic Study with a new planeswalker and go up to 18. Ashiok surprised me by not being terrible. More testing needed, but good so far. Damnation was cut. Deluge is nice because it is easier to cast and its -X/-X effect adds diversity to how I wipe the board.

Qige,
Damnation and Control Magic are not competing for the same spot in my mind. I am content with 8 wipes right now. Twelve seems like too many but it makes it real likely you'll get one. I lump Control Magic in with Bribery. I like 2 of those and prefer Control Magic to Treachery. Fun fact, Control Magic can steal a creature with shroud/hexproof if I find it with Rector. :wink:

I'm using Sol Ring and Mana Crypt so I do not have to use Ancient Tomb. I need too much colored mana. I have always enjoyed seeing Colonnade! I might actually test out Creeping Tar Pit over Arcane Sanctum.
So far Deathrite has proven himself. His :b: effect hits all opponents and it stops opponents from using creatures and spells from their graveyard. And he acts as ramp. I like running 2 pieces of graveyard hate. His only downside is being a creature.

Glad to hear you are having success with your list! Getting all your fetch lands will definitely be a benefit. Don't forget that Rings of Brighthearth lets you fetch for 2 lands. :smile:

Ufactor
01-15-2014, 07:38 PM
How does Superfriends actually work as an archetype? Assuming that you're in a four player pod and everyone is playing tight, the smart play is to either attack you because it is known that you are playing board wipes or the smart play is to attack you to remove loyalty counters from your Planeswalkers, thereby gaining incrimental card advantage. I've been out to the game for over a year and am unaware of some of the finer points of the deck. I want to enjoy playing this type of deck without getting dog piled archenemy style! Thanks!

Qige
01-16-2014, 09:05 PM
How does Superfriends actually work as an archetype? Assuming that you're in a four player pod and everyone is playing tight, the smart play is to either attack you because it is known that you are playing board wipes or the smart play is to attack you to remove loyalty counters from your Planeswalkers, thereby gaining incrimental card advantage. I've been out to the game for over a year and am unaware of some of the finer points of the deck. I want to enjoy playing this type of deck without getting dog piled archenemy style! Thanks!

Basically you need to play in a stronger meta. Every deck should be a threat, every deck should be able to compete on the same power with yours. If people think you play 5cc and have walkers in your deck is a threat, they don't know how to play properly. You have to assess who's going to win and how, and be able to control that. PW's are pretty shitty on their own, we just play them to impact the board in 1/2 ways (placing a token blocker, setting up CA, killing a creature, tutoring) Creature decks are pretty easy to maintain, esp after you 2nd or 3rd wipe. Always play walkers when you have control over the board. In my deck, I sit back and ramp, take the first few hits if their is any and wipe anywhere from turn 3-5. Slowly we establish our board presence by placing enchantments, and building mana. Both his cromat and progentius are either used as a solid threat on the defensive to protect a walker we might want to ult. Or we just do general damage near the end of the game when we solidify the board.

Sometimes we win through Doubling Season's > PW > Ult. Happens often. Sometimes we ramp our board through rings, and start hammering with PW abilities. Other times we build CA and deny any opponent from winning or knocking us out of the game. Control is definitely not the easiest in EDH, but as long as you can abuse the weak points of other decks you should have no trouble maintaining the board. IE. Maelstrom wanderer, Turn 3 spews hand of land and cascades into a bunch of stuff, my turn vampiric tutor'd for terminus, That player is now out of the game. IE Kalia, early wipe, or a tuck counter spell, don't have to worry until turn 6+. Mimeoplasm, make blockers, tormods crypt on the board. IE Combo decks, Stranglehold. IE Midrange goodstuff decks. Is usually weak to walkers, they dont have a lot of range to hit into PW's. Most abilities and spells affect everything but. They usually have 1-2 creatures out and its quite easy to handle using blockers. Also stopping players from going rampant doesn't really trigger a lot of hate.

Also another point you commented on is "smart play is to attack you" which is false, I usually know if my walker will last the next turn or not. Burn spells aren't many, and theres not a lot of haste creatures either in edh.











And hey ace,

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver < he's garbage. I tested him when he first came out. He's a house on turn 3, any turn later he's win more. He doesn't impact the board at all, takes at least 2 turns to get at least a 5drop which is probably not that great anyways. He's more than 95% a dead card in your hand after mid game. If you do get him to 7 I think you are probably going to win anyways. Food for thought, maybe he's going great for you. Let me know. Replace for Kiora, can't wait to use her. Deathrite also has 2 more drawbacks you didn't note, he nulls two of your cards. CoW and SunTitan. And late game he's just whatever.

Also yeah Rings of Brightearth is disgusting, 2 venser emblems LOL. insane ramp with either garruk wildspeaker / ral / tez. Double fetch nobody really catches it the first time haha. Also why no elspeth sun champ? She's a winning card on her own. Also I think Garruk Wildspeaker is for the most part more useful than Skyshroud Claim. Because he does give us an early 3/3 blocker. I dunno think about it next time you have Skyshroud in your hand.

Also try assemble the legions. That card is great. Awesome turn 5 play.

Ufactor
01-18-2014, 09:25 AM
Basically you need to play in a stronger meta. Every deck should be a threat, every deck should be able to compete on the same power with yours. If people think you play 5cc and have walkers in your deck is a threat, they don't know how to play properly. You have to assess who's going to win and how, and be able to control that. PW's are pretty shitty on their own, we just play them to impact the board in 1/2 ways (placing a token blocker, setting up CA, killing a creature, tutoring) Creature decks are pretty easy to maintain, esp after you 2nd or 3rd wipe. Always play walkers when you have control over the board. In my deck, I sit back and ramp, take the first few hits if their is any and wipe anywhere from turn 3-5. Slowly we establish our board presence by placing enchantments, and building mana. Both his cromat and progentius are either used as a solid threat on the defensive to protect a walker we might want to ult. Or we just do general damage near the end of the game when we solidify the board.
Sometimes we win through Doubling Season's > PW > Ult. Happens often. Sometimes we ramp our board through rings, and start hammering with PW abilities. Other times we build CA and deny any opponent from winning or knocking us out of the game. Control is definitely not the easiest in EDH, but as long as you can abuse the weak points of other decks you should have no trouble maintaining the board. IE. Maelstrom wanderer, Turn 3 spews hand of land and cascades into a bunch of stuff, my turn vampiric tutor'd for terminus, That player is now out of the game. IE Kalia, early wipe, or a tuck counter spell, don't have to worry until turn 6+. Mimeoplasm, make blockers, tormods crypt on the board. IE Combo decks, Stranglehold. IE Midrange goodstuff decks. Is usually weak to walkers, they dont have a lot of range to hit into PW's. Most abilities and spells affect everything but. They usually have 1-2 creatures out and its quite easy to handle using blockers. Also stopping players from going rampant doesn't really trigger a lot of hate.
Also another point you commented on is "smart play is to attack you" which is false, I usually know if my walker will last the next turn or not. Burn spells aren't many, and theres not a lot of haste creatures either in edh.





Ok, All of that sounds plausible enough. I can buy that, so thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, everything can be paraphrased by saying 1) don't worry about bad decks and bad players ...overwhelm aggro decks with card quality and board wipes. Know who's going to be problematic and hit them in the neck first, and 2) against good decks, tutor for toolbox answers to expose the vulnerabilities of each strategy. Even tournament quality decks have weak points that can be exploited by a single card strategy. So what answer do you search for against commonly played generals...?

Maelstrom Wanderer - Terminus, Hallowed Burial

Kaalia, Zur - Any tuck spell, plus Control Magic, Desertion, Spelljack or any similar card that you're running.

Mimeoplasm - Tormod's Crypt (Which becomes easy to find with Maelstrom Nexus on the table ...any one drop brings this online, which is why Crypt is better than Nihil Spellbomb).

Sharuum - ???

Animar - ???

Azami - ???

Jhoira - ???

Ace/Homebrew
01-19-2014, 01:25 AM
Sounds like you've got it. :smile:
Bad decks/players can't handle you playing planeswalkers for 3 turns after wiping the board. Especially in a 3 player pod.
Emblems cannot be interacted with and give superfriends a lasting advantage after achieving a mini-goal.


Maelstrom Wanderer/Kaalia/Zur/Mimeoplasm/Sharuum/Animar/Azami/Jhoira
The tuck-wipes you mention along with the tuck-counters and Bant Charm help a lot. Making generals cost to much to recast happens often too.
Aura of Silence and Stranglehold help a lot if I find them early.



Qige - What are your thoughts on Kiora? I am looking forward to using her!

You're probably right about Ashiok. He exiles an average of 12 cards before he's dealt with. I'm going to keep testing him.
I'm going to continue to defend Control Magic and DRS! :tongue: DRS also uses the opponents graveyard. I always deplete their bin before I start to target mine. Your suggestions about the planeswalkers sound right, but I think you play EDH a bit more competitively than me. I'm sticking to one walker of each name just cause...



I've decided Rhystic Study is becoming Kiora. I'm starting to look at Academy Rector and Maelstrom Nexus as possible cuts. I am liking Creeping Tar Pit a lot.

Qige
01-19-2014, 02:38 AM
uFactor

Ya sharuum, I guess theres a combo version and and artifact version, uhh combo just leave Counterspell in hand when he's built up mana. And with or without combo, austre command is ok, but merciless eviction just cripples them ;)

Animar, hes just creature spew, gotta just wrath and set up 1/2 blockers until he overwhelms you with creatures and then wrath again and then he shouldnt have many cards in his hand.

I've lost to an interesting deck though in RUG, that dragon from the same precon. The guy played a bunch of incremental CA like jace beleren and hand manipulation and then combo'd out infinite turns. -_- This was a while ago but yeah.

Azami, mono blue general? I've played against other mono blues, yeah if you don't put pressure early in the game it's really hard to win.

Jhoria, ya red blue general that I have no idea what it does, I think its a combo deck I just have never seen someone play it. When I lose to the combo I will figure out how to win haha.

I think multiplayer is easier because most generals are aiming for the mid game win so most other decks are trying to compete for the same task at the same time. They use a bunch of cards while we aim to win after they all do their thing.

I've won on a 4 card mul to Rhys. That's why I always stress the 4mana cmc board wipes, I really like them.

Ace
Kiora shes broken for the deck haha. Like I said theres minimal burn cards, so pinging for 2 is highly unlikely, also wicked ability to null dmg, extra ramp and CA yes please. And a finisher. at 4 mana .. Geez. Rings her explore. damn. More excited about her than anything. Want korean foil haha ;)

Ok maelstrom nexus... that card is pure advantage. You get ahead and break free. You counter on their turn you also flip cards eh? Why do you want to cut it? I think it's great gas for the deck since their isn't alot of card draw. Cut Gideon Jura, 5 mana for what? Fog? haha. He's bad. Try testing torpor orb. Ya it may blank suntitan / Grave titan, but you are stopping a bunch of other stupid stuff. And you should know you play mimeoplasm, reanimate the 9/9 elphant or slyvan primordial turn 2. Torpor orb also is great because it costs 2 mana. We don't do a whole lot with 2 mana in this deck.

And whats drs? haha. Also krosan grip, your going to need it more than ever now because of Nekusar wheeling everybody. Forced fruition scary card man haha. Academy reactor? Explain lol.

Ya also can you write a semi detailed way to play mimeoplasm around GY hate. Kinda interested; also Mikaeus and Trisk you need to add him. Thats instawin haha.

FTW
01-19-2014, 11:03 AM
Why don't you play some Gods too? They're pseudo-planeswalkers, dodge a lot of the wrathing, can turn sideways once you have multiple PWs on the field.

Thassa, God in particular stands out.

About Planeswalker choices:
why not Elspeth, Sun's Champion? She doesn't give the awesome Emblem, but she wraths the board instantly and makes token blockers/army faster. Elspeth 1 is just a 4/4 flyer, better in a beatdown deck.
why not Chandra, Pyromaster? She still +1 pings people for 1 but she also draws cards. Seems good in control. The ultimate is probably worse and you lose the -X: kill a creature, but you can only really use that once every few turns whereas the extra card you draw EVERY turn is probably far more powerful than killing that creature. The 0: also synergizes with Top/Jace/Thassa to burn cards you don't want to see.

Qige
01-19-2014, 11:58 PM
Why don't you play some Gods too? They're pseudo-planeswalkers, dodge a lot of the wrathing, can turn sideways once you have multiple PWs on the field.

Thassa, God in particular stands out.

About Planeswalker choices:
why not Elspeth, Sun's Champion? She doesn't give the awesome Emblem, but she wraths the board instantly and makes token blockers/army faster. Elspeth 1 is just a 4/4 flyer, better in a beatdown deck.
why not Chandra, Pyromaster? She still +1 pings people for 1 but she also draws cards. Seems good in control. The ultimate is probably worse and you lose the -X: kill a creature, but you can only really use that once every few turns whereas the extra card you draw EVERY turn is probably far more powerful than killing that creature. The 0: also synergizes with Top/Jace/Thassa to burn cards you don't want to see.

Thassa I thought about, but I realized she's just a 3 mana enchantment scry 1 which is okay? I rather run scroll rack because it fits lower on my curve (not quite the same but its still deck manipulation) and its tutorable with tez and colorless. I also run elspeth, still trying to test with her though. I assume she is good too just never really got a chance to use her. Im curious what power 4 or greater will destroy.

And chandra has 2 useless abilities, +1 unblockable doesn't really do anything, and her ultimate isn't going to copy much. Maybe a wrath 3 times or a counterspell lol. And her second ability doesn't really let you draw a card. Its play a card, I'm more of a draw go kind of player, plus I rather play arena because its 1 mana cheaper and can't be destroyed by being attacked. I run her in a ruuhan deck, where I think she fits perfectly though ;). Just doesn't really justify a card slot in 5cc. Although the synergy with top/jace would always be nice haha.

EDIT: Chromanticore just got spoiled. LOL ace run that shit on cromat haha thats a better batterskull FORSURE. I might even consider haha

FTW
01-20-2014, 03:50 AM
Keep in mind Thassa also makes Gideon/Cromat/stolen creatures unblockable and is indestructible. So unlike Scroll Rack or Crystal Ball or whatever, she'll survive enemy Oblivion Stones and such. Plus, between 3 planeswalkers with UU costs, Control Magic with UU, and a few other permanents with a single U (including Cromat and Chromanticore), it's not impossible for Thassa to go into indestructible unblockable beatdown mode. So IMO she's much better than just a pure scry card. Seems like a good fit for a control player, but ultimately up to you.

Qige
01-20-2014, 04:54 PM
Keep in mind Thassa also makes Gideon/Cromat/stolen creatures unblockable and is indestructible. So unlike Scroll Rack or Crystal Ball or whatever, she'll survive enemy Oblivion Stones and such. Plus, between 3 planeswalkers with UU costs, Control Magic with UU, and a few other permanents with a single U (including Cromat and Chromanticore), it's not impossible for Thassa to go into indestructible unblockable beatdown mode. So IMO she's much better than just a pure scry card. Seems like a good fit for a control player, but ultimately up to you.

Ya maybe for ace's deck. You have a good point. I don't use gideon and can't target progen with it :(. Haha chromanticore what a solid card haha. I'm going to definitely try him out. pretty good that if you got rector out and you wipe you get ahead with a bomb ass creature. I like thassa's artwork I use her as a playmat and I'm not really into playmats haha

Ufactor
01-21-2014, 06:23 PM
Can anyone explain the difference between Progenitus and Cromat? How does Cromat equal a three turn kill? What combination of mana do you need to pump to make this happen?

Ace/Homebrew
01-21-2014, 11:10 PM
Can anyone explain the difference between Progenitus and Cromat?
The artwork may help considering the similar angles and whatnot. Cromat is clearly smaller and more of a mish-mash of abilities. Progenitus is an enormous hydra with protection from everything.

I preferred Cromat because he is a more subtle threat. Everyone forgets or simply doesn't know what he does.
I am sure Qige can explain what drew him towards Progenitus.


How does Cromat equal a three turn kill? What combination of mana do you need to pump to make this happen?
:w::b: lets Cromat attack or block profitably against most creatures without involving damage

:r::w: +1/+1
:r::w: +1/+1
:u::r: +Flying
=========
7/7 Flying

Ufactor
01-22-2014, 11:34 AM
Why not play Mirage fetchlands? ...especially if you're into heavy blue, I would rather have a EtBT Land that can find an Island rather than an off land that might get you what you need. So Flood Plains and Bad River??

Ace/Homebrew
01-22-2014, 01:17 PM
So Flood Plains and Bad River??
38 lands feel right. I occasionally get a bad hand without enough of them; but, you know... variance :rolleyes:

30 are dual lands and fetches. Those I'm sticking with.
Of the remaining 8, we have:

Reflecting Pool - makes :u:
Command Tower - makes :u:
Celestial Colonnade - makes :u:
Creeping Tar Pit - makes :u:
Seaside Citadel - makes :u:
Krosan Verge
Stirring Wildwood
Strip Mine

I won't say Krosan Verge is strictly better than the Mirage fetches (because it costs :2: to activate), but I will say it is better. It coming into play tapped is bareable because it ramps a land without taking a spell's spot.
I like my man-lands... so I do not see myself replacing Wildwood.

I agree with Qige that Seaside Citadel is an under-achiever... So if I would add a Mirage fetch, that is what I would be replacing. The CitP tapped wording really kills it for me though.

Qige
01-22-2014, 09:10 PM
Uhh progentius, because instant kill with sorin, draw 10 cards with garruk, cascade into everything, destroys everything, blocks everything. has absolutely no reliance towards the deck. And 10 mana isn't that bad to get too. Plus he's wicked looking.

Also you could try token swarm? Sliver Queen, run more token producing PW. Sorin LoI, garrks/elspeths . Thassa might have a better home in that one. And token enchants. I dunno its a thought.

Why don't you just play city of brass? CiPT lands are horrible haha. All the damage from fetch / shock / ancient tomb / brass... add's up. I want a good lifegain PW (comon new ajani) . Also comment on gideon man! what's your opinion?

Qige
01-22-2014, 11:58 PM
Woo! New mana rock! Astral Cornucopia

Ufactor
01-25-2014, 09:25 AM
Yeah... so far I agree with Qige on the whole Cromat vs. Progenitus question. Cromat is a three turn clock as explained, but none of your main phase mana is open for the rest of the game. Not only does Progenitus deal ten damage for free, but he can actually be a *two turn* clock with a PW pump like the Garruk Wildspeaker -4 ability. Progenitus fears two whole cards in the game (Terminus and Hallowed Burial), and everything else is just a speedbump. Plus there's cascade ...attacking and blocking games ...drawing stupid off of Garruk Primal Hunter ...He just seems like the best creature in the format.

I'm playing 10 pain fetches, plus Mirage fetches, plus City of Brass, plus Tarnished Citadel ...and go back and forth on Ancient Tomb ...Sphinx's Revelation is a BOmb, truthfully and it makes everything else worthwhile. best. lifegain. ever.

Astral Cornucopia is corny. It's a Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic or Chromatic Lantern with none of the perks. I'm sure that it'll get played in constructed, but in EDH, you're never going to pay more than three unless you resolved a giant Mana Drain or Plasma Capture ...in which case you should be winning regardless.

Gideon seems like win more ...he has essentiall the same ultimate as Karn, but none of the set up. Sorry dude, but this is fool's gold.

Qige
01-26-2014, 04:44 AM
Yeah... so far I agree with Qige on the whole Cromat vs. Progenitus question. Cromat is a three turn clock as explained, but none of your main phase mana is open for the rest of the game. Not only does Progenitus deal ten damage for free, but he can actually be a *two turn* clock with a PW pump like the Garruk Wildspeaker -4 ability. Progenitus fears two whole cards in the game (Terminus and Hallowed Burial), and everything else is just a speedbump. Plus there's cascade ...attacking and blocking games ...drawing stupid off of Garruk Primal Hunter ...He just seems like the best creature in the format.

I'm playing 10 pain fetches, plus Mirage fetches, plus City of Brass, plus Tarnished Citadel ...and go back and forth on Ancient Tomb ...Sphinx's Revelation is a BOmb, truthfully and it makes everything else worthwhile. best. lifegain. ever.

Astral Cornucopia is corny. It's a Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic or Chromatic Lantern with none of the perks. I'm sure that it'll get played in constructed, but in EDH, you're never going to pay more than three unless you resolved a giant Mana Drain or Plasma Capture ...in which case you should be winning regardless.

Gideon seems like win more ...he has essentiall the same ultimate as Karn, but none of the set up. Sorry dude, but this is fool's gold.

Its just preference, I don't think Cromat is "better" than Prog, keep in mind that cromat can be played T5 and has 5 abilities making him almost like a walker. Progenitus deck just needs to be optimized more in mana rocks / sweepers to actually take turn 8+. I think ace did a good job optimizing his deck for cromat.

I actually cut sphinx rev. I didn't find a use for it until like turn 7+. I think opportunity would just be better if you really need to the card draw. But I've definitely started to master the deck and I think your playing too aggressively if you really need to draw cards off x=1 or 2. I tried replacing for Decree of Pain. Because it's pretty much better than sphinx since it wipes the board, draw's potentially more cards and it can be cycled. But I even think this card is too much strain on the deck and I'm looking at cutting it shortly.

Astral Cornucopia is good, I can T3 it or T6 and still ramp hard into progentius. It's better than darksteel ingot. Dark steel ingot is definitely over rated. If they waste removal on a 3 mana basic rock. I really would be happy. It's probably one of the dumbest plays to waste removal on it. If it get's wiped so what it does absolutely nothing game breaking or changing. We are not an aggro list trying to push out damage in the first few turns. vault of endless rest is better, it's a very over looked card in edh. You can tuck reanimate targets, get back your own removal, and blink it with venser and keep tucking their own stuff back. Ace I think you should test with it. I am really confident that it's a superior card to darksteel ingot. Also, even if it does get removed it still made an impact onto the board which has a game lasting effect.

I tested with plasm capture... not impress, two blue two green is hard to do. Yea.. I can speed progentius out... but its just whatever, Desertion is definitely better.

And not the recent gideon, I'm talking about Gideon V1.

Also, when I'm not lazy I'll reup my deck so far.

FTW
01-26-2014, 11:38 PM
Cromat:
keep RWRW open: 3 turn clock
keep UG open: practically can't be killed and can block anything
keep UR/WB open: can't be profitably blocked

Progenitus:
0: 3 turn clock
0: practically can't be killed and can block anything
0: can't be blocked

IMO the big advantage of Cromat is
1) costs less & comes online earlier (although this is a trivial consideration since you only cast him with like 10 mana open anyway)
2) fun factor/nostalgia
3) people think "tl;dr" and don't account for all the abilities, can catch them on misplays
4) better against Hallowed Burial/Terminus
5) can block and kill scary flying commanders, unlike Proggy

My playstyle would prefer Progenitus but I see merit in choosing Cromat.

Ace/Homebrew
01-27-2014, 11:02 PM
Also comment on gideon man! what's your opinion?
I do prefer Gideon Jura to Gideon, Champion of Justice. Qige, are you still using either? I'm looking forward to your updated pics.
Jura doesn't do anything stupid with Doubling Season and he doesn't have an ultimate. Those are both downsides. He does work nicely with Tamiyo's +1, Garruk's -3, Sarkan's -2, Ral's +1, and to a lesser extent Ajani's +1. On more than one occasion he's hit for 9 in the air thanks to an assist from Elspeth.

My favorite use for Gideon is to wrath the board and then beat for 6. I'm not dead-set on him, but for now he's got a spot on the team.



FTW summed up Prog VS Cromat nicely. :smile:

Ufactor
01-28-2014, 11:46 AM
There are four seemingly indispensable cards that are absent from everyone's list: Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal and Regrowth. What rectifies that choice?

Qige
01-28-2014, 02:08 PM
There are four seemingly indispensable cards that are absent from everyone's list: Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal and Regrowth. What rectifies that choice?

Brainstorm, I don't really think this card by it self in edh unless it had some synergy with other cards rather than terminus / fetch lands then maybe. But it's really tight deck to justify a card slot to fit a 1 mana card that doesn't impact the board. More aggro or tempo decks that need to hit a T3 4 Mana for Ruuhan or T4 for a 5 drop might use brainstorm better, I rather have a more useful spell in my hand.

I got scroll rack in mine...still testing.

Imperial Seal is awful, its sorcery speed to manipulate my next draw? A lot can happen in one turn. I think imperial seal belongs more in a combo deck where you are looking for certain pieces to win. In control we are looking for answers and this card happens to be too slow. Also doesn't help its a quarter million dollars.

Regrowth. Ugh. Its clunky, you have to rely on the opponent to put something into your graveyard, because then its just a dead card in your hand. It's a one for one that requires me to spend more mana on something to recast it. Unless we had snapcaster or dredge to put stuff into our grave then it would be a lot more useful. And I think E wit is just better esp, since ace has sun titan in his deck. But I still think its kind of lackluster.

Ace/Homebrew
01-28-2014, 07:01 PM
Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal, Regrowth
Imperial Seal is a strictly worse Vampiric Tutor at 26 times the cost... There are other tutors I would play before it, even if I wanted to afford the card.

In my experience, Regrowth is outclassed by cards like Praetor's Counsel in EDH. Regrowth is a great card! But if I wanted that effect, I would put Eternal Witness back in to abuse with Venser. I took her out though cause she was only okay. I've tried to keep my deck un-reliant on the graveyard to limit the way opponents can hurt me.

Brainstorm just doesn't do enough in EDH...

You could be right with Scroll Rack though. I admit I have never tried it. I'll wait to hear Qige talk on it as he finishes testing it.

Ufactor, do you have-/are you building- a 5 color deck? The cards you mentioned all seem very good in a quick-kill combo deck, not control (as Qige said). If you are building a control list, post it so we can compare and get a little more background on what those cards are doing for your deck. :smile:

Ufactor
01-29-2014, 12:54 AM
1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...

2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats. Both cards give you a huge tempo boost early in a format where most games are decided quickly and many crucial cards are restricted - it would stand to reason that Brainstorm and Imperial Seal just might be good where tempo is key and ALL (!!!) of the cards are restricted. Understanding lines of play that are not even possible anywhere else gives Vintage players a unique insight on these cards.

3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library (the other good ones are JTMS and Scroll Rack ...See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy do this but are barely playable). This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects. It lets you shuffle away cards that are crap late in the game, such as mana artifacts. I've cut other cantrips from my deck - Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse are all long gone, but Brainstorm is constant.

4) Imperial Seal helps find answers if you're over a barrel against net decks. Considering that tuck spells, Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, and Tormod's Crypt are all so very vital, having the ability to access and resolve them should be a good thing. When there's no immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, Imperial Seal gets you swingy bomb spells. Cards that you Imp Seal for in Vintage are Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, etc... There are cards in Vintage that give you the game instantly and want to be drawn as often as possible. There are EDH equivalents that similarly create win-on-the-spot conditions and game states. There are few non-black decks that I would NOT play this card in.

5) I have a 5cc deck. I plan to post it once I'm happy with the list...

Qige
01-29-2014, 03:45 AM
1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...

2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats. Both cards give you a huge tempo boost early in a format where most games are decided quickly and many crucial cards are restricted - it would stand to reason that Brainstorm and Imperial Seal just might be good where tempo is key and ALL (!!!) of the cards are restricted. Understanding lines of play that are not even possible anywhere else gives Vintage players a unique insight on these cards.

3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library (the other good ones are JTMS and Scroll Rack ...See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy do this but are barely playable). This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects. It lets you shuffle away cards that are crap late in the game, such as mana artifacts. I've cut other cantrips from my deck - Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse are all long gone, but Brainstorm is constant.

4) Imperial Seal helps find answers if you're over a barrel against net decks. Considering that tuck spells, Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, and Tormod's Crypt are all so very vital, having the ability to access and resolve them should be a good thing. When there's no immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, Imperial Seal gets you swingy bomb spells. Cards that you Imp Seal for in Vintage are Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, etc... There are cards in Vintage that give you the game instantly and want to be drawn as often as possible. There are EDH equivalents that similarly create win-on-the-spot conditions and game states. There are few non-black decks that I would NOT play this card in.

5) I have a 5cc deck. I plan to post it once I'm happy with the list...

I agree brainstorm is a powerful card, I've played with it in other edh decks. It's a great card. The thing is, it's also a spell slot with an artificial cost. With 38 lands, commander mulls, and many mana rocks; I'm not going to be casting Brainstorm usually anytime before turn 5(?). That means its a null card early in the game. When I have more cards in my deck that do not interact with the defending players the deck starts to get watered down and less consistent. This ends up hurting me. This actually develops into negative card advantage because we have a null card. IE in a 4 player game we will have -3 CA. (Its superficial, I know but you get the point) And Card Advantage is everything a control deck needs.

Yes face value it excels you 3 cards into your deck which in most cases it is useful, but since our deck is 5cc we do have more silver bullets and has less consistency. In lets say an artifact deck, ya draw 3 get a similar card to develop our board is great. But in a control deck we need specific answers. What is brainstorm doing? What card do we need? Is the purpose for cute interactions between terminus? Or is it to slightly increase our odds of drawing better off of fetch lands? Wouldn't diabolic tutor just be better?

Odds; every card in the deck is almost 1% at chance of drawing. After 7 and lets say 4 draws, we have 88 cards in the deck. Some one plays a CRUCIAL artifact to the entire game. We have 1.14% to draw a specific card. Lets say we have 3 pieces of removal buried in the deck. That's 3.42% to hit a specific card off brainstorm. It seems really weak in a control deck that intends to draw out the game. Diabolic tutor is just better than what brainstorm is doing in a control deck. Like I said I ran it in a ruuhan deck where i need him out t3 as consistently as I can, and it's a great card to do that.

As for imperial seal, first on the note of net decks. Net deck edh does not exist to the extent as it does in constructed. People will have same general/strategy but different cards almost always. Imperial Seal is probably great in vintage because you know what is in you opponents deck for the most part, and what card's in your deck will destroy them. Same as 1v1 commander. In 4 players, there is no one card that just wins games. Feel free to think of one, because it should be on the ban list then. It is almost impossible to predict the next 3 turns of your opponents and how they will react to other interactions. IE my opponent has a shit ton of creatures in his GY, I tutor for T-Crypt, my opponent goes and he plays his t-crypt. Great I fucked up my draw for next turn. And there-by slowed myself down.

Seal is a horrible card. It's STRICTLY Card disadvantage and does not impact the board. Like I said it is only good for combo in edh where you need combo pieces (or interact with the top of your library). Also diabolic tutor is just better than Seal, no?

Also there is always that classic question where how many tutors are too many tutors.

FTW
01-29-2014, 10:13 AM
1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...

Just because a card is banned doesn't mean it's good in every deck. Recurring Nightmare would suck in this one ;-)

1-v-1 is much faster and bannings reflect attempts to Stifle combo. It's not banned in multiplayer. Sorcery speed is bad when there are 4-7 turns before you draw it instead of just one, especially in a reactive control deck. He might as well just play something like Increasing Ambition and get the card straight to hand. He'd likely be able to cast Crypt, Torpor Orb or whatever in the same turn! Yes, it's expensive, but his deck is clearly designed to play a slow, mana-intensive game.



2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats.

EDH is not Vintage. This is The Source, a Legacy forum, so I doubt ANYONE on here thinks Brainstorm is a superficially weak card. That's a pretty bizarre assumption for you to make.

In a 60-card Legacy deck, you might have 15 different cards as 4-ofs so digging 3 deep gives you a good chance of seeing something you want. In a 99-card EDH pile with 1-ofs, those odds drop dramatically. Much higher variance in the 3 cards you see!! So in EDH, particularly control decks, tutors are generally better than dig spells and pure card advantage better than net-zero cantrips.

In those lategame situations where Brainstorm shines, EDH decks have enough mana to cast cards that generate actual card advantage (not just virtual card advantage by burying dead cards).



3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library. This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects.

The interactions are cute, but IMO the problem is, in highlander, Brainstorm is a 1-of and those other cards (not counting fetchlands) are 1-ofs. The chances of seeing them together when you need them for cute interactions is low.

Brainstorm's interaction with Future Sight is low. Basically, if you have Future Sight out AND you want the top cards of your library in your hand but not cast AND you have some cards in hand you want to play, you can Brainstorm to put those cards in your library in your hand and the ones in your hand on top (from which you can play them). But if you wanted to cast the ones from your library, you could just do that through Future Sight. And if you didn't want to cast the ones from your hand, then you just nullified your Future Sight by putting dead cards on top. So the two only interact positively in some situations.

The chances of drawing Brainstorm when you already have a Terminus stuck in hand AND need to cast Terminus AND don't have 6 mana to just hardcast it this turn is low. Using Brainstorm to set up Terminus next turn Time Walks every opponent, so is clearly not as good as just hardcasting it now if you can, especially in a creature-light control deck where you need to keep the board clear now and not next turn. If he had more Miracle cards to abuse, the utility might go up a bit.

The same thing applies to Cascade. The chances that he has been holding on to something lower CC that he wants to cast but hasn't cast yet is probably low. If he had a ton of repeatable cascade (e.g. Maelstrom Wanderer commander), then this would easily be worth it. But probabilistically speaking, he may not have something in hand he really wants to set up a cascade into.

Basically, yes there are some great potential interactions, but since these are not REPEATABLE interactions and these cards are singletons, they will happen uncontrollably and rarely, which is somewhat counterintuitive to what control wants. Meanwhile, Scroll Rack and Jace and Sensei's Top give you REPEATABLE interactions with the top of your library, much more consistent to be able to pull off tricks like these over long multiplayer games.

Ufactor
01-29-2014, 11:00 AM
@ Qige and FTW - I feel like you guys are just reinforcing my point. The value of Imp Seal is not being objectively understood and still being written off simply by saying that it's "a bad Vampiric Tutor". Imperial Seal is largely maligned even by Vintage players, unless you've piloted TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo. It's really something that you have no context for unless you're already experienced in successfully playing the card. I would have to be Brian Demars, Rich Shay or Andy Probasco to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak, but I know I'm right on this one.

FTW
01-29-2014, 02:36 PM
@ Qige and FTW - I feel like you guys are just reinforcing my point. The value of Imp Seal is not being objectively understood and still being written off simply by saying that it's "a bad Vampiric Tutor". Imperial Seal is largely maligned even by Vintage players, unless you've piloted TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo. It's really something that you have no context for unless you're already experienced in successfully playing the card. I would have to be Brian Demars, Rich Shay or Andy Probasco to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak, but I know I'm right on this one.

I've played Grim Long and other combo at various times in Vintage's history and have success playing Imperial Seal in both Vintage and EDH combo decks. Just because I like it in those decks, doesn't mean I like it in all decks.

Your argument has 2 fallacies:
1) good in combo = good in control
2) good in 1v1 = good in multiplayer

"TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo" --> These are all combo decks. You're arguing Imperial Seal is strong in 1v1 combo, which it is, but that has nothing to do with EDH multiplayer 5-color control unless you make the above false assumptions. How many Vintage control decks even run Imperial Seal?

Praetor's Counsel is great in multiplayer slow EDH decks, sucks in fast Vintage combo decks. The formats and archetypes are apples and oranges. Card power doesn't just exist in a vaccuum but relative to a format and deck. Being good in combo doesn't mean good in all decks. Tendrils and Ill-Gotten Gains is good in combo, bad in non-combo.

"to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak" --> If you can't do this yourself, then how do you actually know the card properly translates over?

Tell me of the success your non-combo casual multiplayer control decks have with Imperial Seal and then we're talking business. Vintage combo is one thing. EDH is a different format. Multiplayer is a different format. Sorcery speed matters for a control deck when there are 4+ turns before you see the card. It doesn't for a combo deck in 1v1, obviously. Card disadvantage matters when it means falling behind multiple other players, less when you're just falling behind one player and you plan to win next turn.

Do you have any reasons for why the card is good in multiplayer control, other than arguments about Vintage combo?

Ufactor
01-31-2014, 08:33 AM
I've played Grim Long and other combo at various times in Vintage's history and have success playing Imperial Seal in both Vintage and EDH combo decks. Just because I like it in those decks, doesn't mean I like it in all decks.

Your argument has 2 fallacies:
1) good in combo = good in control
2) good in 1v1 = good in multiplayer

"TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo" --> These are all combo decks. You're arguing Imperial Seal is strong in 1v1 combo, which it is, but that has nothing to do with EDH multiplayer 5-color control unless you make the above false assumptions. How many Vintage control decks even run Imperial Seal?

Praetor's Counsel is great in multiplayer slow EDH decks, sucks in fast Vintage combo decks. The formats and archetypes are apples and oranges. Card power doesn't just exist in a vaccuum but relative to a format and deck. Being good in combo doesn't mean good in all decks. Tendrils and Ill-Gotten Gains is good in combo, bad in non-combo.

"to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak" --> If you can't do this yourself, then how do you actually know the card properly translates over?

Tell me of the success your non-combo casual multiplayer control decks have with Imperial Seal and then we're talking business. Vintage combo is one thing. EDH is a different format. Multiplayer is a different format. Sorcery speed matters for a control deck when there are 4+ turns before you see the card. It doesn't for a combo deck in 1v1, obviously. Card disadvantage matters when it means falling behind multiple other players, less when you're just falling behind one player and you plan to win next turn.

Do you have any reasons for why the card is good in multiplayer control, other than arguments about Vintage combo?

I would probably put my argument that if Vamp is good in control, good in EDH and good in multiplayer, then so is Imp. Are Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal functionally identical? - Of course they are not! The two cards are, however, functionally similar enough that one can be included on the merits of the other. And, it's not unless you've played a prerequisite amount of Vintage, like yourself, that you can realize this.

If you go back far enough into the history of Magic, there was a point where Vampiric Tutor was considered a "bad" card. Putting yourself back a card, plus life loss, plus the non-blue mana cost mean that it was strictly worse than Mystical Tutor and competed for resources with Sylvan Library. Eventually, people (like Darren Di Batista and Stephen Menendian) realized how stupid this was, found ways to turn the disadvantages into huge, format wrenching tempo gains, and phased out cards that would have diminished the effectiveness of Vamp. Imperial Seal, for similar reasons, is not a "bad" card, unless you're using 1998 logic in a modern meta game.

FTW
01-31-2014, 01:12 PM
I'd say the huge difference between Vamp and Imperial is the number of turns that are not yours between casting and getting the tutored card.

With Vamp, you can do it EOT or in your own upkeep, so literally just before you draw. You can even do it during opponent's turn while something is on the stack and immediately cantrip into the card. The fact that the card text doesn't say "put the card directly in your hand" is almost trivial. That's what players figured out when they realized how good Vamp was.

With Imperial, you often have to wait until your next draw step to see the card. Is that wait a big difference?

In 1v1, no, you're just waiting through 1 turn. In multiplayer it can be a huge difference because you're waiting through several people's turns and a lot can change between when you tutored for the card and when you get it. Maybe you don't want it anymore because the board state has radically changed, but now you lose your next draw step drawing a card you may no longer want.

In combo that's less likely because you pretty much ALWAYS want your other combo piece. Most of the time, board state be damned. You still want the same card no matter what. But in a reactive control deck, a deck that is based on decision-making, what card you want to draw is usually a function of the board state. In EDH Multiplayer, the board state can change a lot before your next draw step (e.g. someone might take 3 extra turns and kill the player you were trying to defend against, someone might already wipe the board making your tutored board wipe useless, someone might have generated 2000 tokens making you wish you went for a board wipe, someone might have played an unblockable clock making you no longer want that Planeswalker just yet, etc.). Burning a card to get a card you may no longer want is a huge gamble.

Ufactor
02-04-2014, 03:04 PM
There's a metric crap ton of cards that work with topdeck tutors, whether Imperial Seal or otherwise. There's Top, JTMS, Scroll Rack, the aforementioned Brainstorm, cycling cards, quasi cycling cards (like Mind Stone), Future Sight, or anything else that you're already running for good draw. I still don't see why an aversion to Imperial Seal isn't just a product of retrograde evaluation standards.

...but you've convinced me. I shouldn't waste my breath/key strokes trying to streamline a clunky, do-nothing deck in the hopes of preparing it for the top tables, or the think tank required for such a feat. Keeper is dead, 5cc is dead and I should just be a douche bag and go netdeck Zur/ Animar/ Maelstrom Wanderer/ Azami/ Hermit Druid Combo.

Qige
02-05-2014, 03:51 AM
There's a metric crap ton of cards that work with topdeck tutors, whether Imperial Seal or otherwise. There's Top, JTMS, Scroll Rack, the aforementioned Brainstorm, cycling cards, quasi cycling cards (like Mind Stone), Future Sight, or anything else that you're already running for good draw. I still don't see why an aversion to Imperial Seal isn't just a product of retrograde evaluation standards.

...but you've convinced me. I shouldn't waste my breath/key strokes trying to streamline a clunky, do-nothing deck in the hopes of preparing it for the top tables, or the think tank required for such a feat. Keeper is dead, 5cc is dead and I should just be a douche bag and go netdeck Zur/ Animar/ Maelstrom Wanderer/ Azami/ Hermit Druid Combo.

Why do you try to sound so belittling? If you don't like it, then don't put it into your deck. Simple. Stop acting like a know-it-all. None of the commanders you listed are busted in a multiplayer game if your playing with people who understand the meta. You can net deck all you want, but unless you know how to construct proper vintage edh decks and how to play a multiplayer game properly then don't be so snarky.

5cc beats out animar / maelstrom wanderer / zur pretty easily by the way, so go ahead and be a "douche bag" for playing common commanders.

Qige
02-09-2014, 09:48 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/unuruna5.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/8u6uva4a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/sybudyre.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/2ega3e7a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/aquqapeg.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/suny3uze.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/ehaqenys.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/se3aryna.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/raneha7a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/usuhehem.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/10/a6ede5u4.jpg

Yea so far, plasm capture I'll replace for mana drain. And I need a crypt probably take out a wipe. And need to complete fetches and duals :(. I'm just sitting on sealed 5cmdr decks and ftv20 , I'll trade one day for them lol. Or hope for a reprint of the fetches. I spent too much on asian foils. -_- Why the fuck did I do that haha. And they were a bitch and a half to get lol. Esp korean . christ.

FTW
02-12-2014, 01:18 PM
There's a metric crap ton of cards that work with topdeck tutors, whether Imperial Seal or otherwise. There's Top, JTMS, Scroll Rack, the aforementioned Brainstorm, cycling cards, quasi cycling cards (like Mind Stone), Future Sight, or anything else that you're already running for good draw.

Because at that point it becomes a 2-card combo and is no more overpowered than other 2 card combos or other search engines. When you need to run a critical mass of other cards to make a card good, it begs the question of that card's inherent value. Again, combo decks can easily work around the drawback. But a control deck generally plays reactively, saving tutors until you need an answer to the board. What if you need to react to the board state but you don't have any of those cycling engines online for whatever reason? Then your tutor could be a dead card. You'd probably prefer it was Diabolic Tutor at that point. A card is not that reliable if it only conditionally lets you be reactive.

How many Vintage control decks even run Imperial Seal?

*NOTE: In BUG control like Damia, if you run Prophet of Kruphiz and Teferi and Future Sight and such, I would probably run Imperial.


I still don't see why an aversion to Imperial Seal isn't just a product of retrograde evaluation standards.

If it was a product of retrograde evaluation standards, people would be arguing to also not play it in combo decks or other EDH decks. But they're not. And I'm saying the opposite. The only argument being put forward is that it doesn't belong in a pure control EDH deck. That's does not imply retrograde evaluation or even a general aversion to the card.

Amon Amarth
02-12-2014, 09:02 PM
Figured I'd throw my .02 cents in. Also, My Cromat deck isn't PW based at all and I'm coming from a very different mindset/philosophy. Grain of salt and all that!



3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library (the other good ones are JTMS and Scroll Rack ...See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy do this but are barely playable). This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects. It lets you shuffle away cards that are crap late in the game, such as mana artifacts. I've cut other cantrips from my deck - Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse are all long gone, but Brainstorm is constant.

4) Imperial Seal helps find answers if you're over a barrel against net decks. Considering that tuck spells, Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, and Tormod's Crypt are all so very vital, having the ability to access and resolve them should be a good thing. When there's no immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, Imperial Seal gets you swingy bomb spells. Cards that you Imp Seal for in Vintage are Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, etc... There are cards in Vintage that give you the game instantly and want to be drawn as often as possible. There are EDH equivalents that similarly create win-on-the-spot conditions and game states. There are few non-black decks that I would NOT play this card in.

I run Brainstorm for all the same reasons Ufactor mentioned. It's also worth mentioning that compressing your mana curve also has other interesting effects like making Yawgmoth's Will much better. Which leads into...

Imperial Seal is really good. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to run it (other than outrageous $$$). The board changes all the time. That's certainly not a reason to not play any of the other sorcery-speed tutors like Demonic and Co. As Ufactor mentioned you're just going to get some ridiculous bomb. Is there a point in the game where I don't want a Humility in play? What about Future Sight? Hell no; I want those cards in play all the time. I wouldn't say that Seal + Jace or FS is a combo or anything but just synergy, good cards working well together. I think someone mentioned something about card disadvantage which seems extremely flimsy, at best. Sorry if this comes off as disjointed I'm only trying to address the opposition.

Regrowth is sweet.

Scroll Rack is not sweet.

Qige
02-13-2014, 12:02 AM
Figured I'd throw my .02 cents in. Also, My Cromat deck isn't PW based at all and I'm coming from a very different mindset. Grain of salt and all that!



I run Brainstorm for all the same reasons Ufactor mentioned. It's also worth mentioning that compressing your mana curve also has other interesting effects like making Yawgmoth's Will much better. Which leads into...

Imperial Seal is really good. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to run it (other than outrageous $$$). The board changes all the time. That's certainly not a reason to not play any of the other sorcery-speed tutors like Demonic and Co. As Ufactor mentioned you're just going to get some ridiculous bomb. Is there a point in the game where I don't want a Humility in play? What about Future Sight? Hell no; I want those cards in play all the time. I wouldn't say that Seal + Jace or FS is a combo or anything but just synergy, good cards working well together. I think someone mentioned something about card disadvantage which seems extremely flimsy, at best. Sorry if this comes off as disjointed I'm only trying to address the opposition.

Regrowth is sweet.

Scroll Rack is not sweet.

Question to everyone playing multiplayer control. Do you know how to play it and how to win? I'm not being critical, but it's COMPLETELY different than a 1v1 constructed meta. Sorcery speed is 3x slower. 3x the threats, 3x interactions. It's not you 1v3. Its 1v1v1v1. Other people will destroy critical game changing affects. You need to balance everything.

Imperial Seal is NOT a control card. If you think that an opponents card is so crucial that you need to tutor for a specific answer to it; in hopes from preventing that player to win. Chances are in a magic literate group, that the other players that go after you will target the player or do what is necessary for that player not to win. If not, then maybe that card that didn't get removed probably wasn't too crucial, and you wasted a card trying to find a potential answer.

Also; yes there is many times I wouldn't want humility or future sight in my hand. They do nothing. Humility is only good, if I lost board control or they have only a few creatures that are potent. 5, 1/1's against my 0 1/1's is still scary. I don't know why I would want future sight in a control deck anyways.

Saying, "I want those cards in play all the time." Is a pretty novice assumption by the way. As much as I want Doubling Seasons, there is a correct time when to play it and also more than often a bad time to play it.

card disadvantage - How exactly is that "flimsy"? Do you understand the basis of a control deck? Control's theory is to overall have more cards in the long game and as long as you can't win I can win. Card disadvantage is a "flimsy" argument in aggro but not control.

"Regrowth is sweet. Scroll Rack is not sweet." Doesn't really help the discussion. Regrowth isn't that sweet when their isn't a lot of self milling. It's going to be a dead card 90% in most situations, or a copy of a used spell. With DRS and Ooze being strong counters to this card. I consider it unnecessary to run unless your playing some dredge deck or something.

Scroll rack has been very useful so far. 2 Colorless mana artifact is easy to drop, easy to use, digs deep, interacts with tezz. It's a great card.

Amon Amarth
02-13-2014, 12:55 AM
Question to everyone playing multiplayer control. Do you know how to play it and how to win? I'm not being critical, but it's COMPLETELY different than a 1v1 constructed meta. Sorcery speed is 3x slower. 3x the threats, 3x interactions. It's not you 1v3. Its 1v1v1v1. Other people will destroy critical game changing affects. You need to balance everything.

Imperial Seal is NOT a control card. If you think that an opponents card is so crucial that you need to tutor for a specific answer to it; in hopes from preventing that player to win. Chances are in a magic literate group, that the other players that go after you will target the player or do what is necessary for that player not to win. If not, then maybe that card that didn't get removed probably wasn't too crucial, and you wasted a card trying to find a potential answer.

Also; yes there is many times I wouldn't want humility or future sight in my hand. They do nothing. Humility is only good, if I lost board control or they have only a few creatures that are potent. 5, 1/1's against my 0 1/1's is still scary. I don't know why I would want future sight in a control deck anyways.

Saying, "I want those cards in play all the time." Is a pretty novice assumption by the way. As much as I want Doubling Seasons, there is a correct time when to play it and also more than often a bad time to play it.

card disadvantage - How exactly is that "flimsy"? Do you understand the basis of a control deck? Control's theory is to overall have more cards in the long game and as long as you can't win I can win. Card disadvantage is a "flimsy" argument in aggro but not control.

"Regrowth is sweet. Scroll Rack is not sweet." Doesn't really help the discussion. Regrowth isn't that sweet when their isn't a lot of self milling. It's going to be a dead card 90% in most situations, or a copy of a used spell. With DRS and Ooze being strong counters to this card. I consider it unnecessary to run unless your playing some dredge deck or something.

Scroll rack has been very useful so far. 2 Colorless mana artifact is easy to drop, easy to use, digs deep, interacts with tezz. It's a great card.

Damn, the old "you and/or your playgroup is bad" argument. Impressive, I haven't seen that one for quite some time.

Qige
02-13-2014, 12:56 PM
Damn, the old "you and/or your playgroup is bad" argument. Impressive, I haven't seen that one for quite some time.

This thread is for constructive and criticism regarding the noted topic, not for a meaningless arbitrary argument. If you disagree with something I said then comment properly.

I never stated that a play group is bad, but I'm saying imperial seal is not a card to find answers for a certain solution. Imperial seal in EDH is almost exclusively a combo card. Tell me a scenario where imperial seal is A. Better than Diabolic tutor, and B. What card we are finding that Is reactive 3 turns later.

Like I said, if there is a dangerous situation on the board you have to wait an entire rotation before it is dealt with. Probably another player should interact with them causing your next draw to blank. Your also down a card. If you can explain how imperial seal is a reactive response card I would certainly like to know.

Ace/Homebrew
03-12-2014, 11:49 PM
Accessories :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/P4OAXfC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iNur0z9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q3xmVxL.jpg

Ace/Homebrew
04-17-2014, 11:15 AM
+ Cyclonic Rift
- Hull Breach

New Ajani is meh...
Dack Fayden looks promising however! He will almost certainly replace Ashiok.

Only 13 cards left before everything that can be is foil.
Reflecting Pool, Bribery, Pernicious Deed, and Kiora will be the 'easy' ones. :rolleyes:

Ace/Homebrew
05-23-2014, 12:16 PM
I've been trying some things out!

So far I am happy with swapping Hull Breach for Cyclonic Rift.
I replaced Academy Rector with Xenagos, the Reveler. Xenagos' ultimate does almost nothing for me at all but his other two abilities are not terrible. Even if Ashiok and Xenagos don't get permanent homes here, I want to dedicate their slots to planeswalker cards. I have already come to terms with cutting Rite of Replication as well. That would get me to 20 planeswalkers, which has been my goal for a while. So of course now I want 21... :rolleyes:

Dack Fayden will fill the RoR spot. He will be the second 3 mana planeswalker in the list. I would like to get to 3, but that may take a while because Ashiok isn't spectacular. Little Ajani doesn't work for this deck and the only way to grow Little Lili is too devastating to my hand.

The worst land in the deck is Seaside Citadel. I could replace it with Mana Confluence or whatever... I'm not hugely concerned about it though. Ideally an enemy-color cycle of man-lands is created and either the :u:/:g: or :u:/:r: one is baller.

Tormod's Crypt hasn't done anything for me lately. It is a security blanket of sorts but I might cut it for the 21st walker...
Overall my intention for the deck is changing a bit. I want to keep it competitive but that will no longer be the primary driving force for including or not including a card. I just want to play planeswalkers. :laugh:

Koolmaqe
07-27-2014, 12:39 PM
So....

The Chain Veil

M15 Walkers

New Planeswalker/Commander Teferi?

Ace/Homebrew
07-28-2014, 08:18 AM
So....

Never thought I'd get 5 new toys from Commander pre-cons! :laugh:
Assuming the 4 others are as interesting as Teferi, I have to find a lot of space. It just so happens I spent some time last night doing exactly that, not realizing I'd wake up to see Christmas came early.

For M15, I intend to make these changes:

- Control Magic
- Garruk, Primal Hunter
+ The Chain Veil
+ Garruk, Apex Predator

I was able to find 3 other spots last night (thinking that would last me at least a year to fill with planeswalkers...)

- Grave Titan
- Bribery
- Tormod's Crypt

I am reserving Orim's Thunder for another sweeper that handles artifacts and enchantments.

The amount of individual planeswalkers has finally hit a critical mass where I will have to start cutting walkers in order to fit in walkers! :cool:

Koolmaqe
07-29-2014, 06:53 PM
I will say, I was quite shocked as I make my own 5 Color Planeswalker deck, how tight it really is for space! I will post a list a little later (The manabase will hurt your eyes!!, Mirage Fetches + 2/10 Shocklands yo!) but I'm sure you can give excellent advice on it! (Like getting the other 8/10 shocks!). I am not as of yet restricted by the one planeswalker per name, but I might go in that direction. My hardest choices are Ajani (Steadfast or Mentor) and Garruk (Apex Predator, Primal Hunter) and Elspeth (Knight and Sun's Champion).

Koolmaqe
07-31-2014, 12:41 PM
I will say, I was quite shocked as I make my own 5 Color Planeswalker deck, how tight it really is for space! I will post a list a little later (The manabase will hurt your eyes!!, Mirage Fetches + 2/10 Shocklands yo!) but I'm sure you can give excellent advice on it! (Like getting the other 8/10 shocks!). I am not as of yet restricted by the one planeswalker per name, but I might go in that direction. My hardest choices are Ajani (Steadfast or Mentor) and Garruk (Apex Predator, Primal Hunter) and Elspeth (Knight and Sun's Champion).



Instant - 1
Bant Charm

Enchantments - 9
Doubling Season
Pernicious Deed
Mirari's Wake
Maelstrom Nexus
Privileged Position
Planar Colapse
Mana Reflection
Rhystic Study
Phyrexian Arena

Artifacts - 6
Sol Ring
Contagion Clasp
Contagion Engine
Chromatic Lantern
The Chain Veil
Staff of Nin

Sorcery - 18
Beseech the Queen
Hallowed Burial
Rout
Terminus
Demonic Tutor
Rhystic Tutor
Wargate
Blasphemous Act
Time Warp
Nature's Lore
Wrath of God
Conflux
Skyshroud Claim
Cultivate
Jokulhaups
Kodama's Reach
Austere Command
Farseek

Planeswalker - 22
Sarkhan the Mad
Vraska the Unseen
Jace Beleren
Ajani Vegeant
Sorin Markov
Liliana Vess
Ajani Steadfast
Ral Zarek
Jace, Arcitect of Thought
Dack Fayden
Karn Liberated
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Venser, the Sojourner
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Gideon Jura
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands - 41
Various Bad - Good lands. Need more shocks, fetches ect.

Ace/Homebrew
08-05-2014, 11:51 PM
Koolmage, edit your post to include the lands! That's almost half the deck. :wink:


Rhystic Study
Contagion Engine
Rout
Wargate
Nature's Lore
Conflux

These are all cards I've used at some point in this deck.
All the Elspeths are great in Superfriends... I limit myself to one iteration per walker for reasons of flavor. I'd be interested to hear how you find Ajani Steadfast (if you go with him). Way go to with a creatureless build! I will soon be down to only 2 (DRS and Sun Titan). Both provide so much value I doubt I'll ever be able to cut them...
Privileged Position and the Proliferate artifacts seem win-moar. Which, I suppose, is fine for EDH. :laugh:

Koolmaqe
08-07-2014, 01:18 PM
Koolmage, edit your post to include the lands! That's almost half the deck. :wink:



These are all cards I've used at some point in this deck.
All the Elspeths are great in Superfriends... I limit myself to one iteration per walker for reasons of flavor. I'd be interested to hear how you find Ajani Steadfast (if you go with him). Way go to with a creatureless build! I will soon be down to only 2 (DRS and Sun Titan). Both provide so much value I doubt I'll ever be able to cut them...
Privileged Position and the Proliferate artifacts seem win-moar. Which, I suppose, is fine for EDH. :laugh:

Ajani is great with DS, but what planeswalker isnt? Reducing all sources to 1 is a HUGE help, won me a game vs Wanderer. Position is in there partially because it's a great alter as well ;). Lands are.... Bad. Mirage fetches, Refuge, Ect. The proliferate hasn't worked out as well as I wanted it to, to be honest. I want to cut it to 1 of each, but there are so many good Elspeth, Ajani, and Garruk. Also, believe it or not, I want another wrath or 2.

~KM

Ace/Homebrew
10-17-2014, 01:59 PM
Khans update :laugh:

+ Dig Through Time
- Bribery

I rarely interact with my graveyard... Crucible of Worlds and Sun Titan are the only cards that can bring anything back from there. Deathrite Shaman also uses up graveyard cards, but looking at 7 and keeping 2 seems like something this deck wants to do!

I'm getting excited for Wizards to reveal the other 4 Walker-manders for Commander 2014. My testing is showing that Teferi, Temporal Archmage is stupid good with The Chain Veil.

I've already decided on the following changes:

+ Teferi, Temporal Archmage
- Grave Titan

That further reduces the number of creatures I play to 2 (plus Cromat).

I've already come to terms with cutting the following cards in anticipation that some portion of the Commander 2014 walkers will be playable in this deck:

- Tormod's Crypt
- Hmmmm... Damn, I thought I had more space than that...

I want to replace Orim's Thunder, but I want to replace it with another modal sweeper that has yet to be printed. :wink:
Well... Sun Titan is an option. I could see parting with Aura of Silence too I guess.
That will probably do for now. I think it is safe to assume at most 3 of 5 will be playable in this deck. If it turns out to be more than that I'll have some tough decisions to make!

---------

Edit - Okay, so I think I've decided...
- Grave Titan
- Sun Titan
- Aura of Silence
- Tormod's Crypt
All to be cut for additional planeswalkers (putting me to a total of 24 in the deck).
Orim's Thunder will eventually get cut for a modal sweeper and Seaside Citadel will get cut for a man-land.

---------

2nd Edit - Yaaaay for C14 spoilers. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
-Grave Titan; +Teferi, Temporal Archmage
-Tormod's Crypt; +Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
-Aura of Silence; +Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury

I'll probably also cut Stranglehold if I need the space. Card is extremely good, but not very fun. I'm considering Treasure Cruise for Orim's Thunder.

---------

3rd Edit - Okay, all the Commander Walkers have been spoiled.
Nahiri and Daretti don't really have a place in this deck.

So!
-Grave Titan; +Teferi, Temporal Archmage
-Sun Titan; +Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
-Aura of Silence; +Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
-Tormod's Crypt; +Treasure Cruise

Orim's Thunder and Stranglehold get to stay for now.

Ace/Homebrew
03-09-2015, 09:40 AM
I bought a few foils!
The cards I have left to foil are:

Scalding Tarn
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Force of Will
Demonic Tutor
Dack Fayden

Force of Will and Demonic Tutor are unlikely to ever happen though. :frown:
Jace will only happen because the FtV20 version is 'affordable'.
Dack could happen if he's reprinted...

I also plan to add Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Narset Transcendent.
I know Stranglehold will get cut (for Ugin). The other spot is debatable... Right now I am considering either Orim's Thunder or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.



I haven't had much opportunity to play EDH lately as I have devoted my Magic time to Legacy and the cube. I should be able to get my fill of EDH at the end of the month though!

Ryu092
03-10-2015, 11:30 AM
I bought a few foils!
The cards I have left to foil are:

Scalding Tarn
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Force of Will
Demonic Tutor

Force of Will and Demonic Tutor are unlikely to ever happen though. :frown:
Jace will only happen because the FtV20 version is 'affordable'.

I also plan to add Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Narset Transcendent.
I know Stranglehold will get cut (for Ugin). The other spot is debatable... Right now I am considering either Orim's Thunder or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.



I haven't had much opportunity to play EDH lately as I have devoted my Magic time to Legacy and the cube. I should be able to get my fill of EDH at the end of the month though!

From my experience leave the Ashiok - he is too much pain, unless you are playing against someone who constantly knows his top 3 and can change them. The thunder on the other hand seems pretty weak compared to other possible removals.
also in this particular combination of colors I suggest something, well double edged sword will describe it - Dream Halls or other options to trick your cards in - Omni Show from vintage/legacy is too much obvious, so is Sneak Attack
also new sharkhan is tempting

Ace/Homebrew
03-20-2015, 01:23 AM
Foil Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is en route!

Got a couple games in tonight against 2 opposing mono-:b: decks. I was pleased with how my deck survived a pretty focused attack on it's mana base. Game 1 Winter Orb came down turn 1 or 2. Early mana rocks and a Dack Fayden I vamp tutored for stole me the game. I powered The Chain Veil out turn 2 thanks to Mana Crypt and ate damage until I found Dack. Then I looted into Tezzeret the Seeker and mini-combo'ed out getting a Gilded Lotus and Sol Ring from my opponents with Dack, and my Batterskull with Tezz.

Game 2 I faced Sinkhole and Wasteland. I landed a Coalition Relic and it got me through an Infernal Darkness thanks to Doubling Season. I fucked up and used the 4 counters on my Relic to play Xenagos, the Reveler which stranded Kiora, the Crashing Wave in my hand (since all my lands made black and my Relic was tapped due to the 4 counter trick... :rolleyes: ) I survived the Infernal Darkness thanks to cumulative upkeep cost and double Satyr tokens threatening his life. My life total was also low though and I got extorted to death after the stronger opponent resolved Yawgmoth's Will.


From my experience leave the Ashiok - he is too much pain, unless you are playing against someone who constantly knows his top 3 and can change them. The thunder on the other hand seems pretty weak compared to other possible removals.
also in this particular combination of colors I suggest something, well double edged sword will describe it - Dream Halls or other options to trick your cards in - Omni Show from vintage/legacy is too much obvious, so is Sneak Attack
also new sharkhan is tempting
Ashiok hasn't ever impressed me... Mostly because paying :1::u::b: to exile 3 cards from one opponent's library never feels worth it. I could see WotC making another Ashiok though. That one might make back in.

Dream Halls is better in a deck with fewer colors. Plus I'm fine with hard casting my spells! I'm the control deck.

Sarkhan Unbroken is tempting. I really like the design of the card. I think Vol still gets the spot though.
I'm really looking forward to Narset Transcendent!

Ace/Homebrew
04-24-2015, 10:05 AM
- Crucible of Worlds
- Spell Crumple

+ Narset Transcendent
+ Dissipate

This is a minor update from the new set along with a concession to the new ruling on tucking commanders.
I was originally going to remove Bant Charm for Narset, but I have increased the competition for cards in my graveyard by adding Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Deathrite Shaman.

I still plan on replacing Bant Charm when something fun comes around though.
Batterskull is also on the chopping block. I want to replace one or both of these with a future *makes planeswalkers better* card like Rings of Brighthearth, Doubling Season, and The Chain Veil. Magic Origins may have just such a goodie, so we'll see!

I'm excited for Battle for Zendikar block because I have high hopes they will complete the man-land cycle by adding the enemy pairs. If at least two of them are playable, they will take the place of Seaside Citadel and Strip Mine.


I recently picked up Khans foil Bloodstained Mire and Polluted Delta along with Narset Transcendent and an FtV Jace, the Mind Sculptor. That leaves the non-foil cards in the deck as:

Force of Will
Demonic Tutor
Dack Fayden
Scalding Tarn
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

I never really mentioned Ashiok before because I always intended to replace him when a better 3 CMC walker was printed... He's been useful recently but not to the extent that he has earned himself a permanent place in the deck. Assuming enemy fetches are reprinted in BfZ block, I'll finally pick up a ZEN Tarn after the prices drop a bit. Again, it seems very unlikely I will ever want to afford a foil FoW, DTutor, or Dack. :mad:

Ace/Homebrew
11-10-2015, 10:56 AM
Has it really been 7 months? Where does the time go. :cool:

- Bant Charm
- Orim's Thunder
- Gilded Lotus
- Seaside Citadel

+ Nevinyrral's Disk
+ Damnation
+ Commander's Sphere
+ Lumbering Falls

This is Damnation's second time in the deck. Welcome back! Sorry to have cut you before.

Commander's Sphere feels like a better fit than Gilded Lotus. A high number of my spells are multicolored and getting to 5 mana for a rock never felt right. Plus I've already lived the dream of having 4 lands and Commander's Sphere out with Austere Command in hand - tapped the Sphere for :w:, sac'd to draw, hit Savannah, chuckle to myself and nuke the board. :laugh:

I've decided to keep Strip Mine, cause 'you never know...' My *permanent* destroyers usually specify non-land and sometimes the problem I need to deal with is a land.
That means the man-lands will be competing with themselves if better contenders are released in Oath.

Batterskull will be cut when a fun new planeswalker comes out. That will bring me to 26 and at that point newly released planeswalkers will have to compete for spots with the existing ones. I don't think I can spare any more space in the deck to cram new ones in.

It's been 2 years since I posted photos of the deck! I owe this thread some updated ones.

Ace/Homebrew
05-02-2016, 12:15 PM
- Batterskull
+ Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

Minor change.

For Shadows of Innistrad, I intend to swap out Sorin Markov for Sorin, Grim Nemesis.
Sucks because the Markov art is so much better, but Grim Nemesis is easier to cast and appears to do more of what I want...

Cards on the chopping block include:
Treasure Cruise
Deathrite Shaman
Vampiric Tutor

Wishlist for Eldritch Moon:
Better Tamiyo
A playable 3 CMC planeswalker :wink:

HdH_Cthulhu
05-03-2016, 03:08 PM
Contagion Engine could be fun! Its a more useful but less powerful The Chain well.

Also better if you are behind!

Ace/Homebrew
05-04-2016, 09:20 AM
Contagion Engine could be fun!
I forgot Contagion Engine proliferates twice per activation!
I actually tried the card out right after Scars was released. Unfortunately it targets an opponent for the -1/-1 counters rather than 'any number of creatures'.
I really wanted proliferate to be a thing... It just always felt 'win moar'. :rolleyes:

Also worth noting (because I suppose it isn't obvious), The Chain Veil gives this deck the ability to combo finish. There are a couple of combinations of walkers that allow me to activate Veil as often as I like.
Pretty much any two of:
Tezzeret the Seeker
Ral Zarek
Xenagos, the Reveler
and Teferi, Temporal Archmage is pretty good at getting a mini-combo going, unfortunately his untap ability is a -1 so I get a limited number of uses.


Foil Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are on their way to me.
I finally pulled the trigger on Ashiok cause he's not useless and they are really slow to print 3 CMC walkers, so he'll probably be in the deck for a while.

Davran
05-04-2016, 02:08 PM
Maybe they're too gimicky, but have you given any thought to the various "Oath of X" enchantments from Oath of the Gatewatch?

Oath of Jace and Oath of Nissa seem particularly interesting, and I guess Oath of Gideon isn't terrible, either.

There's also Call the Gatewatch, which if it were going to be useful anywhere it's probably in a deck like this one.

Ace/Homebrew
05-04-2016, 03:22 PM
Oath of Jace and Oath of Nissa seem particularly interesting, and I guess Oath of Gideon isn't terrible, either.
There's also Call the Gatewatch, which if it were going to be useful anywhere it's probably in a deck like this one.
I looked at all of those! :smile:
I was contemplating what to cut for Call the Gatewatch when I realized that any black tutor is better... I cut Vampiric Tutor from Mimeoplasm a little while back and haven't regretted it. I'm looking to cut it in this list too (eventually). I use the 'Liliana and a demon' Demonic Tutor for flavor reasons (here's hoping for a reprint of that copy in Eternal Masters! Foil please). Unfortunately Call is just outclassed by older cards.

I use Oath of Gideon in my Tajic, Blade of the Legion deck (which I am still refining before posting it).
It is hard to deny Oath of Nissa because it does good things... The mana fixing isn't often going to be relevant due to my mana-base and lack of 'deep in a color' cards (Sorin Markov was my deepest, but now he's going to be Grim Nemesis). It will wiff on creatures always though...
Oath of Jace also isn't bad. They are probably too cute, but I'll think on them as I get some games in.

Ace/Homebrew
06-30-2016, 09:16 AM
Turns out Oath of Jace is pretty good in this list! It is quite the engine when combined with Top, Jace, or Library and helps get maximum value off Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, and Narset Transcendent.

I cut Treasure Cruise for it with no regrets so far.

Thanks Davran! :laugh:

Ace/Homebrew
07-05-2016, 12:13 PM
Time for more musings on the direction of this deck as well as notes for the future!

Deploy the Gatewatch was spoiled recently. I actually really like the potential of this card. If it successfully finds two planeswalkers, you will almost always 'gain' mana by playing it. I tested it a bit with 26 planeswalkers. Wiffing and finding only 1 walker happened more often than I would like. So I tooled around on TCDecks to see what percentage of targets Modern Collected Company decks use.

The lowest I saw was 26 targets (~43%) and the highest was 34 (~56%). EDH makes the math easy, so I would need between 43 and 56 walkers to maximize the potential of DtG. I went through my list again looking to see where I could make cuts to up the walker count. The highest I think I can go is 30/31 (with/without DtG) so it appears unlikely that any EDH list can exploit this card. :frown:

Here's what I feel I can lose:
Deathrite Shaman - My goal is to run a creature-less list. Easy cut.
Force of Will - To cast for free costs me a blue card in hand, otherwise I need to leave 5 mana open. Add to that my disinterest in obtaining a foil copy and that my cube needs an Alliances FoW... Well... looks like a perfect storm for getting the axe.
Vampiric Tutor - I just dislike playing this card in EDH.
Damnation - I already have a foil Wrath of God. Supreme Verdict is uncounterable. I had cut Damnation before and brought it back in a few months ago. It really is just redundant. Toxic Deluge will remain and Damnation will have to go.
I am excited for the new Tamiyo! She will find a home here, replacing her mono-blue version.

I think I judged Nahiri, the Harbinger to harshly when I decided not to include her in the list. I was too focused on her ultimate and that I am aiming for a creature-less list. Everybody knows you don't evaluate a planeswalker on their ultimate. :wink: Her -2 is quite good and I have been looking for more planeswalkers that can destroy permanents. I think I will test her in the list for a while. I suspect she will earn a place.

Lastly, I am unimpressed with Stirring Wildwood and Lumbering Falls. Mostly Lumbering Falls... If any interesting lands come up I will look first at cutting one of these lands for it.

Davran
07-05-2016, 01:40 PM
Turns out Oath of Jace is pretty good in this list! It is quite the engine when combined with Top, Jace, or Library and helps get maximum value off Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, and Narset Transcendent.

I cut Treasure Cruise for it with no regrets so far.

Thanks Davran! :laugh:

Glad it worked out for you! I've always been on the fence about building some sort of super friends list myself, so this thread scratches that itch for me.

HdH_Cthulhu
07-16-2016, 04:57 PM
Both new Tamio and Lilliana seems meh in a creatureless deck.

Ace/Homebrew
07-17-2016, 12:03 AM
Both new Tamio and Lilliana seems meh in a creatureless deck.
Totally agree about new Lili. :smile:

I like new Tamiyo though!
She comes down a turn earlier and the color commitment isn't really a downside. Bant is probably as easy as :u::u:. Her -2 protects better than Moon Sage's +1. And with all the board control in the deck, her +1 is likely to draw me more cards than Moon Sage's -2.

Ultimately playing with her will show which is better. I haven't been thrilled with Moon Sage for a while though.




Foil Nahiri arrived!
Damnation was cut.

Ace/Homebrew
08-17-2016, 11:19 AM
Well, I did not expect Conspiracy 2 to have multiple planeswalkers in it because the original only had one. But Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and Kaya, Ghost Assassin were a nice surprise. :cool:

Neither are particularly awesome, but Daretti will increase the amount of 3 mana planeswalkers to 4. Plus his +1 ability protects the team, that is about all I can ask of a 3 mana walker. It is a shame he makes defenders, but that would have mostly been their role anyway so I won't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

Force of Will and Deathrite Shaman are easily cut to make room. That will boost the walker count to 29! Still a good way short of making Deploy the Gatewatch playable.

Ace/Homebrew
09-13-2016, 12:10 PM
It feels like WotC is printing a lot more Planeswalker cards than they used to...

I picked up a foil Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and a non-foil Kaya, Ghost Assassin is in the mail... Looks like she is the Dack Fayden of that set, in that foil copies are worth waaaaaaaaaay more than they should be. Deathrite Shaman was cut for Daretti, meaning I am finally running a creatureless EDH deck! Force of Will will be cut for Kaya.



I've had to do a lot of thinking recently to figure out what non-planeswalker cards are essential and which could eventually be cut for more Walkers. With Saheeli and Dovin coming out at the end of the month, I'll need to chop at least 2 more cards to fit them in. I also believe Chandra, Torch of Defiance will replace Chandra Nalaar. Both Saheeli and new Chandra can kill the table if I am comboing off with The Chain Veil. :laugh:

So what cards are non-essential? Here's the list from least- to most- essential:
Maelstrom Pulse
Hinder
Oath of Jace
Nevinyrral's Disk
Commander's Sphere
Dissipate
Wrath of God
Cyclonic Rift
Dig Through Time
Maelstrom Nexus
Vampiric Tutor
Sylvan Library
Replacing all those cards would put me at 41 planeswalkers. That is juuuuust outside the range of making Deploy the Gatewatch function optimally. So it looks like I will never be able to play that card... Oh well. :rolleyes:

H
09-13-2016, 12:56 PM
It feels like WotC is printing a lot more Planeswalker cards than they used to...

I picked up a foil Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and a non-foil Kaya, Ghost Assassin is in the mail... Looks like she is the Dack Fayden of that set, in that foil copies are worth waaaaaaaaaay more than they should be. Deathrite Shaman was cut for Daretti, meaning I am finally running a creatureless EDH deck! Force of Will will be cut for Kaya.

Indeed, I actually happened to open a foil Kaya in a box, still trying to figure out what to do with it (I really don't want to foil my whole Ayli deck) since I barely get to play EDH anymore.

This deck looks great though, reminds me of playing 5-Color 'Walkers in Lorowyn/Shards Standard. Question though, is Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and Ashiok really impactful enough for the deck? I know there aren't many 3 CMC options, but these seem especially weak, since Nissa's minus ability doesn't do much with so few creatures.

Ace/Homebrew
09-13-2016, 06:57 PM
Ashiok is fairly weak, no doubt.

3-mana Nissa isn't bad at all though. If you are using her -2, you're doing it wrong. Don't underestimate getting a plant each turn! Ideally she comes down as opponents are playing their first creatures, so I get a plant or two before they start throwing themselves in front of dudes. This deck has an awkward period in many games where playing a planeswalker means getting to use it once, then it dies from attacks.* Nissa helps reduce the awkwardness by coming down early, pumping out blockers, and establishing a beachhead to deploy additional planeswalkers. Daretti will fill a similar role, while occasionally destroying things. The green plants also have some synergy with Xenagos' +1 and Freyalise's -6, but mostly she keeps my guys unharmed until I can nuke the board. :cool:

Because plants are so harmless, she ultimates frequently and by that time it is a draw 6 or 7 at least. She is admittedly not as strong as the Nissa about to come out, but I reaaally need more 3-mana walkers. So until more come out, she's got that spot. But if I can get 5 or 6 other than her, I'll swap her for the new one. Untapping and making an emblem is incredibly strong.

*To get around this fact, I'll often have to Wrath before going crazy. That usually requires 8+ mana though... My favorite things to do are Deed at EoT, then play 2 walkers. Or play Teferi, untap 4 and Wrath. :wink:

Davran
09-14-2016, 08:46 AM
It feels like WotC is printing a lot more Planeswalker cards than they used to...

I picked up a foil Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and a non-foil Kaya, Ghost Assassin is in the mail... Looks like she is the Dack Fayden of that set, in that foil copies are worth waaaaaaaaaay more than they should be. Deathrite Shaman was cut for Daretti, meaning I am finally running a creatureless EDH deck! Force of Will will be cut for Kaya.

It's probably because the foils are alternate art with the 222/221 collector number, so all of the collectors and such are picking them up for their uniqueness. Plus, the art on the foils is better IMO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that. That said, I'd really like to get my hands on one (foil or otherwise) because she seems like a pretty sweet card. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky drafting this week...:laugh:

As for Daretti, I was lucky and cracked one last week in a prize pack...but I can't figure out what to actually do with it. Maybe it's time to consider a superfriends deck of my own...

Ace/Homebrew
09-15-2016, 09:40 AM
It's probably because the foils are alternate art with the 222/221 collector number, so all of the collectors and such are picking them up for their uniqueness.
You are likely correct, although that still annoys me because the foil copy isn't any 'rarer' than the foil Daretti's from the set...
On the plus side, EM Foil Dack is just a bit above $100, so that's kinda affordable now (it's not, but it's less ridiculous than before).

Kaya arrived and replaced FoW (which is now in my cube). I'm excited for her because she sort of helps with the issue I described above about the 'awkward period' around turn 4/5 of playing a walker into a hostile board-state. I can play her and immediately blink her, keeping her unharmed until my next turn where I can play a board wipe or otherwise find a way to protect her, then build upon the beachhead I've established.


As for Daretti, I was lucky and cracked one last week in a prize pack...but I can't figure out what to actually do with it. Maybe it's time to consider a superfriends deck of my own...

:laugh:
There have been so many walkers printed recently that you can now probably do this without going 5-colors (as long as you don't care about using multiple versions of the same walkers). Having :g: in the deck is nice because you get to abuse Doubling Season, but it probably isn't necessary...


Edit:
Foil Saheeli Rai and Dovin Baan have been purchased!
Chandra is likely to take a little while longer as I do not believe she is worth what she's selling for currently.

Ace/Homebrew
10-08-2016, 05:44 PM
http://i.imgur.com/gkjnPGd.jpg

Non-foil are Dack, Kaya, Chandra, Ob Nixils, Freyalise, and Teferi.

http://i.imgur.com/K2UNJci.jpg

Non-Foil Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor.

http://i.imgur.com/PL5LKOn.jpg

Non-Foil Deluge.

Davran
10-11-2016, 08:40 AM
Photos

Nice looking deck! :eek:

Out of curiosity, how has the new Chandra been for you? I'm itching to pick up a copy for my deck, but I'm not sure I want to bite the bullet on her pricetag at the moment. Plus there's the whole foil vs. non-foil issue you're having, too.

Ace/Homebrew
10-11-2016, 10:11 AM
Thank you!

I haven't gotten a chance to truly see Chandra in action. I picked up a non-foil copy for $26-28 (I forget exactly how much). I need 3 foil and 1 non-foil for various decks, but the price my LGS quoted was the lowest I'd heard, and I really wanted an opportunity to play with her. I believe she will continue to come down in price but there is a very realistic chance that a Standard deck will perform well with her as a 2-or-more-of, so right now I'm playing the game of 'see how low she goes' while risking the chance she'll explode in price on a Monday morning... I'll pull the trigger if I see foil copies at $45-50.

Chandra Nalaar was always my preferred version because she's so good at controlling the board after a boardwipe. I also liked that she has a significant ultimate that you can use right away if Doubling Season is out...

Chandra, Torch of Defiance looks like she will be an upgrade. She still ultimates right away with DS out, but the emblem she provides is more significant. Her -3 is rough on loyalty considering the effect, but you could argue it is more efficient than Nalaar's -X. Her biggest upsides are providing some semblance of card advantage, but mostly ramp-ramp-ramp! My favorite plays involve emptying a hand of planeswalkers onto the table in one turn. Like if I have 4 lands and a Sol Ring, I can cast Teferi, Temporal Archmage, untap 3 lands and Sol Ring, cast Chandra, add :r::r: and play Saheeli Rai.

I don't think there is any questioning if she is good... but her Standard price hasn't bottomed out yet.

Davran
10-11-2016, 10:27 AM
Thank you!

I haven't gotten a chance to truly see Chandra in action. I picked up a non-foil copy for $26-28 (I forget exactly how much). I need 3 foil and 1 non-foil for various decks, but the price my LGS quoted was the lowest I'd heard, and I really wanted an opportunity to play with her. I believe she will continue to come down in price but there is a very realistic chance that a Standard deck will perform well with her as a 2-or-more-of, so right now I'm playing the game of 'see how low she goes' while risking the chance she'll explode in price on a Monday morning... I'll pull the trigger if I see foil copies at $45-50.

Chandra Nalaar was always my preferred version because she's so good at controlling the board after a boardwipe. I also liked that she has a significant ultimate that you can use right away if Doubling Season is out...

Chandra, Torch of Defiance looks like she will be an upgrade. She still ultimates right away with DS out, but the emblem she provides is more significant. Her -3 is rough on loyalty considering the effect, but you could argue it is more efficient than Nalaar's -X. Her biggest upsides are providing some semblance of card advantage, but mostly ramp-ramp-ramp! My favorite plays involve emptying a hand of planeswalkers onto the table in one turn. Like if I have 4 lands and a Sol Ring, I can cast Teferi, Temporal Archmage, untap 3 lands and Sol Ring, cast Chandra, add :r::r: and play Saheeli Rai.

I don't think there is any questioning if she is good... but her Standard price hasn't bottomed out yet.

My deck is very different from yours - you're on the planeswalker plan whereas I'm essentially big red control. I think she's going to be fine in my list, even if it's sort of a bummer that you can't play lands off of her first +1. I don't think I'll ever realistically get to the emblem since I don't have Doubling Season or Chain Veil to mess around with...but her other abilities seem fine. Her ramp sort of reminds me of Koth, which I also run and make use of fairly regularly.

As for the price, I agree with you. Fortunately, I'm not in any huge rush to lay hands on a copy since it's not like I need to tune my EDH deck for a tournament or something...so if some standard deck does make her spike I'm content waiting on rotation. The dangerous thing is if she gets picked up for Modern or Legacy or something, like the 2 mana Jace did.

Ace/Homebrew
11-15-2016, 10:03 AM
Picked up 4 foils for the deck! :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/6beojpK.jpg

As more cards get printed, the deck moves further away from 5-color 'good stuff' with planeswalkers towards a deck dedicated to fully exploiting planeswalkers.
I worked to replace every creature in the deck with planeswalkers, but WotC looooves creatures and printed one that I cannot reasonably exclude...

C16 update:

+ Deepglow Skate
- Maelstrom Nexus

The Skate is just too good, and synergizes with the abilities of:
Saheeli Rai [-2]
Jace, the Mind Sculptor [-1]
Kaya, Ghost Assassin [0]
Nahiri, the Harbinger [-8]
Venser, the Sojourner [+2]

Anecdotally, I stumbled across some silly synergy between Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sorin, Grim Nemesis, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon/Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Using Jace to get Ugin/Bolas on top of my library, I can drain 8 life from each opponent with Sorin every turn while getting +2 cards. :wink:

Davran
11-15-2016, 10:49 AM
Did you consider Atraxa, Praetor's Voice at all? Everyone and their brother seems to be on the Atraxa super friends bandwagon, but maybe the effect is less powerful when she's just part of the 99? She also has a lot of relevant keywords for attacking/blocking, which doesn't really fit your overall plan but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Deepglow Skate does seem particularly insane in here.

Ace/Homebrew
11-15-2016, 12:10 PM
Did you consider Atraxa, Praetors' Voice at all?
I definitely did! Her text box is a wall of relevant keywords and I haven't completely ruled her out...

Ideally WotC would have made Atraxa 5 color. Then I'd be hard pressed to justify continuing to use Cromat over a General taylor-made for Superfriends.
As printed, she would just be 1 of 99. She is hyper efficient in terms of mana-investment, getting a point of P/T and a keyword ability per mana, with a proliferate trigger tacked on for grins. But instant-speed removal (which admittedly isn't all that common) on her would keep me from ever seeing a benefit; unlike Skate which triggers on EtB.

The proliferate trigger at BoES is also frustrating because getting the trigger with a main phase available lets you immediately capitalize on higher loyalty abilities. Since my deck is pretty hostile towards creatures I decided not to include her yet. But I have my eye on her. :smile:

Davran
11-15-2016, 01:00 PM
The proliferate trigger at BoES is also frustrating because getting the trigger with a main phase available lets you immediately capitalize on higher loyalty abilities. Since my deck is pretty hostile towards creatures I decided not to include her yet. But I have my eye on her. :smile:

I suppose you could go off the deep end and run Savor the Moment to capitalize on it (or Time Stretch if we're being serious :wink:)? Doesn't really solve the long term problem of EOT triggers in a deck that essentially operates at sorcery speed, though. Your other option is a Teferi emblem, though I suppose if you've pulled that off Atraxa is probably a little win-more.

Ace/Homebrew
01-27-2017, 08:20 AM
Aether Revolt update!

+ Heart of Kiran
+ Ajani Unyielding

- Oath of Jace
- Ajani Vengeant

Heart of Kiran is pretty badass. Vigilance and flying means you can be really aggressive with it. It also plays well with the board wipe strategy the deck has going. Opponents are given a difficult task of determining which permanent needs to be answered; the vehicle dealing 4 damage a turn, or the planeswalker giving me incremental advantage while fueling the vehicle.
New Ajani hasn't been tried out yet, but I just ordered a foil one and had intended to swap him for Vengeant since he was spoiled. Wasn't going to pay the pre-order price for him though...

Space is getting really tight now. :rolleyes:
I could see parting with Dig Through Time and Commander's Sphere, although I am not enthusiastic about dropping a mana rock. DTT has been a bit underwhelming lately. My graveyard doesn't really fill up until the later stages of a game, so it is conditionally fantastic but sits dead in my hand a lot.

Davran
01-27-2017, 09:07 AM
Heart of Kiran is pretty badass.

Seems perfect for the deck. Attacks and blocks like a champ, dodges wraths and sorcery speed removal...what's not to like?


New Ajani hasn't been tried out yet, but I just ordered a foil one and had intended to swap him for Vengeant since he was spoiled. Wasn't going to pay the pre-order price for him though...

Sad to see Ajani Vengeant go. For whatever reason I like that card a lot and never get to play with it since Boros is so meh in this format. That said, it does seem like new Ajani is potentially better for you.

Have you given any thought to Nissa, Vital Force at all? Her +1 is sort of meh, but the -3 and the emblem aren't awful for you.

Ace/Homebrew
01-27-2017, 02:59 PM
Sad to see Ajani Vengeant go. For whatever reason I like that card a lot and never get to play with it since Boros is so meh in this format. That said, it does seem like new Ajani is potentially better for you.
Yeah, I am also sad to see :w::r: Ajani go. :frown:
He's been in the deck pretty much since it's creation. Worse still, I only bought the pack foil a year or two ago after convincing myself early on that the promo art was better (it's not). I'll hang on to him for a little while. It's a shame Goldmane is better suited for my Tajic deck...

I actually found a sheet of paper from 2009ish that detailed an extremely early build of Cromat and will post the decklist for giggles. :laugh:


Have you given any thought to Nissa, Vital Force at all? Her +1 is sort of meh, but the -3 and the emblem aren't awful for you.
I have! And actually her +1 is what is most appealing in this deck because a 5/5 that sticks around until my next turn is pretty awesome protection. The -3 is pretty meh because most of the spells that I want to return to my hand are the boardwipes. Obviously her emblem and the ability to make it when you untap with her are what makes her most appealing.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar isn't significantly better here because her -2 is pretty much unused text... But costing 3 mana is huge.

Looking at Vital Force again, I think I need to give her a shot in Mimeoplasm. In there I run Loam and 9 fetchlands, so I can exploit the emblem. And the -3 is really good in a deck that dumps it's library into the graveyard. That and I'm really dissatisfied with Kiora, Master of the Depths.

Ace/Homebrew
02-06-2017, 12:46 AM
I actually found a sheet of paper from 2009ish that detailed an extremely early build of Cromat and will post the decklist for giggles. :laugh:

Creatures
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Utopia Tree
Vexing Shusher
Knight of the Reliquary
Giltspire Avenger
Trygon Predator
Doran, the Siege Tower
Forgotten Ancient
Ethersworn Adjudicator
Stonehewer Giant

Planeswalkers
Jace Beleren
Ajani Goldmane
Ajani Vengeant
Sarkhan Vol
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Garruk Wildspeaker
Liliana Vess
Tezzeret the Seeker
Chandra Nalaar
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker

Enchantments
Bitterblossom
Sterling Grove
Control Magic
Teferi's Moat
Doubling Season

Sorceries
Mind Twist
Demonic Tutor
Fabricate
Idyllic Tutor
Blightning
Shard Convergence
Primal Command
Conflux

Infest
Firespout
Wrath of God
Damnation
Martial Coup

Artifacts
Sol Ring
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Umezawa's Jitte
Rings of Brighthearth
Quietus Spike
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sunforger

Instants (Sunforger Package)
Voidslime

Hide // Seek
Terminate
Lightning Helix
Naya Charm
Crosis's Charm
Esper Charm
Bant Charm
Jund Charm
Mortify
Absorb
Punish Ignorance
Master Warcraft

Ahhhhh... memories. :laugh:

Davran
02-06-2017, 01:12 PM
Ahhhhh... memories. :laugh:

Nice list! It's actually not that bad as first attempts go. There's a couple of odd choices in there, but overall it seems like it would still fare pretty well in lots of EDH groups.

Ace/Homebrew
02-27-2017, 01:29 PM
Okay, pimp update! :cool:

I sold a Modern deck and anything else of value I'm not using to SCG. I intended to use the proceeds to properly finish my mana-base, but MM17 just announced the ZEN fetchlands will be included. So now I feel obligated to wait on that Scalding Tarn I need until the price drops.

The rest of the mana-base purchases are just upgrading Breeding Pool, Stomping Ground, Blood Crypt, and Overgrown Tomb from Return foils to Original Ravnica foils. Since I'm waiting on Scalding Tarn, I will likely upgrade my FtV Sensei's Divining Top to an original pack-foil.

Then as MM17 gets opened up, I'll trade my old top and shocks for the Scalding Tarn I need. :tongue:


That will leave me with just Kaya, Ghost Assassin, Dack Fayden, and Demonic Tutor left to foil!
I'm content getting an MM Dack, and I'd like to upgrade my FtV Jace to an MM foil copy. I'm going to wait on Demonic Tutor until they reprint it in a future 'money-grab' set, hopefully with the Liliana-and-a-demon art!

I never thought I'd get this far along...






Dig Through Time is 'to-be-cut' for a future PW printing.
Possibly Commander's Sphere too, but it will be harder to part with that...
Lumbering Falls and (possibly) Stirring Wildwood aren't going anywhere yet, but they are the weakest lands and would be first to go if something better comes along.

Ace/Homebrew
09-07-2017, 10:37 AM
Finally picked up the ZEN foil Scalding Tarn! :cool:
Only non-foil cards in the deck (that have foil printings) are Kaya, Ghost Assassin, Dack Fayden, and Demonic Tutor.

Amonkhet updates:

- Dig Through Time
- Commander's Sphere

+ Djeru, With Eyes Open
+ Samut, the Tested


I'm amused at how hard I worked to remove all creatures from the deck, only for WotC to print some of the most amazing planeswalker support in creature form... And both have EtB effects to be abused by the walkers that bounce, blink, or copy creatures. :wink:

HdH_Cthulhu
10-16-2017, 10:55 AM
Ok 2 cards to consider!

Treasure Map is simply amazing. Fixes draws and mana.

Honor-Worn Shaku With the new pw rules you can tap them for c. Not too powerful but its kinda fun to tap a pw.

Ace/Homebrew
10-17-2017, 10:30 AM
Ok 2 cards to consider!

Treasure Map is simply amazing. Fixes draws and mana.

Honor-Worn Shaku With the new pw rules you can tap them for c. Not too powerful but its kinda fun to tap a pw.
Hah! Shaku is cute, the Legendary/Planeswalker change probably has a few hidden gems waiting to be discovered. If it made mana of any color, I'd be tempted to try it but for :3:, colorless mana isn't good enough. You've reminded me to do a gatherer search for 'legendary' though. :wink:

Treasure Map is hard to evaluate. It's an investment of :5: over 3 turns. In that time you filter once each turn. Then the reward is 3 Lotus Petals that can potentially be cracked one-per-turn for an extra draw. I wouldn't count Map towards the land total because you can't rely on it as such until you've invested 3 turns... Which non-land card do you think it should replace?

HdH_Cthulhu
10-17-2017, 11:52 AM
Hah! Shaku is cute, the Legendary/Planeswalker change probably has a few hidden gems waiting to be discovered. If it made mana of any color, I'd be tempted to try it but for :3:, colorless mana isn't good enough. You've reminded me to do a gatherer search for 'legendary' though. :wink:

Treasure Map is hard to evaluate. It's an investment of :5: over 3 turns. In that time you filter once each turn. Then the reward is 3 Lotus Petals that can potentially be cracked one-per-turn for an extra draw. I wouldn't count Map towards the land total because you can't rely on it as such until you've invested 3 turns... Which non-land card do you think it should replace?

Sisay can now tutor a pw every turn. But i guess hes to fragil without haste or shroud.

Idk I cut mana crypt for it. Kinda hate the card. Like its ok if you start with a map you can durdle some turns. If you open with crypt everyone hates you. You are right its hard to evaluate - best is just try it out.

Ace/Homebrew
05-31-2018, 11:11 AM
WotC seemingly had EDH in mind while designing Battlebond. There are a lot of interesting cards in the set, and a lot of good EDH reprints!

I'm not sold on the Battlebond lands just yet... I very much want to replace Lumbering Falls and kinda-sorta want to replace Stirring Wildwood. The new lands allow for the possibility of coming into play untapped, and I think they were very well designed cards. BUT if I'm playing someone 1v1 in EDH, it is usually more cutthroat and in that specific situation the Battlebond lands come in tapped. :rolleyes:
Jury is still out here.

Arena Rector is something that pretty much has to go into this deck. I reeeally don't want to afford a foil copy, but I think that'll need to happen. I feel really comfortable cutting Nevinyrral's Disk to fit in the Rector.

My main uncertainty involves Rowan Kenrith... She's just really not good enough at 6 mana. However her brother, Will Kenrith is an amazing card. I will be cutting Dovin Baan to fit in Will. The issue I face is that part of Will's text reads [when you resolve this card, search your library for Rowan and put her into your hand]. Similarly, Rowan will tutor out Will; that's actually the most powerful thing she does. At this time I simply cannot justify cutting another card to make room for Rowan, which means I'm giving up some of Will's power (which feels really bad to do).

Davran
05-31-2018, 01:49 PM
My main uncertainty involves Rowan Kenrith... She's just really not good enough at 6 mana. However her brother, Will Kenrith is an amazing card. I will be cutting Dovin Baan to fit in Will. The issue I face is that part of Will's text reads [when you resolve this card, search your library for Rowan and put her into your hand]. Similarly, Rowan will tutor out Will; that's actually the most powerful thing she does. At this time I simply cannot justify cutting another card to make room for Rowan, which means I'm giving up some of Will's power (which feels really bad to do).

Are you really giving up any power, though? To put it another way, is Will good enough that running Rowan simply to fetch him out is worth it? If he is, then maybe Call the Gatewatch deserves another look since it's potentially much more useful and already didn't make the cut...or any of the other black tutor effects you're not currently running.

I don't think I'd want to fetch out a (mostly) dead card simply because I could, especially if there's basically no real situation where I'd want to draw it on its own.

Ace/Homebrew
09-14-2018, 09:19 AM
I've decided to replace Dovin Baan with Will Kenrith, but haven't found a foil copy yet...
Rumors are that Kaya will be an Orzhov planeswalker in the January set, so I'll be anxiously waiting to see if her new iteration is something this deck will want.
Neither of the [GRN] planeswalkers are better than the versions currently in this deck. I honestly doubt if the set will have anything in it for Cromat.

I've picked up a foil Arena Rector! I also decided Nev Disk entering tapped was enough of a downside to replace it. So:

+ Arena Rector
- Heart of Kiran
+ Cleansing Nova
- Nevinyrral's Disk

I've also been testing Search for Azcanta in place of Sylvan Library. I've been happy with the swap. Pretty sure I'll be making a permanent change.


I stole a game last night by assembling Teferi, Temporal Archmage and The Chain Veil. Teferi let me 'mini-combo' so walkers would get 5 activations (original, plus 4 Chain Veil). My last usage of Teferi [+1] found Samut, the Tested. She found Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Tezzeret the Seeker. Tez + Teferi established infinite Chain Veil activations and that let Ugin bolt everyone to death!

Ace/Homebrew
09-25-2018, 08:57 AM
Will arrived!!

+ Will Kenrith
- Dovin Baan
+ Search for Azcanta
- Sylvan Library

With the upcoming release of [GRN], specifically the printing of Assassin's Trophy, I think it is time for me to reconsider my 'no basics' position... I've been wanting to cut Lumbering Falls pretty much since I added it so I think swapping for Island makes sense. What I need to consider if how deep I want to take this, and whether I also want to replace Stirring Wildwood with Plains.

Davran
09-25-2018, 10:29 AM
With the upcoming release of [GRN], specifically the printing of Assassin's Trophy, I think it is time for me to reconsider my 'no basics' position... I've been wanting to cut Lumbering Falls pretty much since I added it so I think swapping for Island makes sense. What I need to consider if how deep I want to take this, and whether I also want to replace Stirring Wildwood with Plains.

Do you even care about the "find a basic" part of Assassin's Trophy? I guess it's free "value" you're giving up in the event that it's pointed your way, but is the consolation prize of a basic land some of the time worth giving up the potential fixing of even a mediocre dual all of the time?

That said, if this were my mana base I'd be too chicken not to run one of every basic (except probably Mountain) because Blood Moon is a card and not being able to play magic sucks.

Also, while blue and white seem to be your primary colors as it were, is Swamp a consideration instead of Plains? Maybe this is crazy, but Swamp turns on your tutors, which gets you your Chromatic Lantern around a Blood Moon, or whatever else you might want following one of your walkers becoming a trophy. Forest also has random upside with Skyshroud Claim...but otherwise doesn't look to be better than Plains or Swamp.

Ace/Homebrew
09-25-2018, 11:35 AM
Do you even care about the "find a basic" part of Assassin's Trophy?
Getting *some* value out of an Ass Trophy pointed at my permanent reduces the feel-bads. I can definitely spare 1 slot, but committing to a second is harder to say with certainty at this point. Island feels like the best option when looking at the mana requirements of the deck and assuming no Blood Moon effects on the table...

I suspect Trophy will be a highly played card, at least initially. And given that it can target anything, and that planeswalkers are harder to remove than other permanents, I expect many of those Trophies will target my walkers the turn before they ultimate.


Is Swamp a consideration instead of Plains?
Great point!

Currently my colorless answers to Blood Moon are:

- Chromatic Lantern
- Coalition Relic
- Karn Liberated
- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

:u: Assuming a basic Island on the field, the cards I can still play would be:

- Cyclonic Rift (also an answer!)
- Saheeli Rai
- Dack Fayden
- Ral Zarek
- Deepglow Skate
- Search for Azcanta (which would become a Mountain when transformed :rolleyes:)

None of those other than Rift get me out of a Blood Moon lock...

:w: Answers with a Plains:

- Nahiri, the Harbinger

Theoretically Arena Rector could find me an answer, but she'd have to hit my graveyard (preferably on my turn when I could immediately use the walker she found).

:b: Answers with a Swamp:

- Demonic Tutor
- Vampiric Tutor

They are answers in the sense that they find me an answer. If the Moon effect is from Magus of the Moon, then Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and Toxic Deluge also work. Although Chandra, Torch of Defiance would be an answer too...

I guess for completion's sake...

:g: Answers with a Forest:

- ...

Well I guess there really aren't any. Again assuming the lock is from Magus, Samut, the Tested can kill it. And I suppose Xenagos, the Reveler can keep me in green mana (which we've established doesn't do me any good).

--------------------------------

Okay, so what have I learned...

Island is the most individually useful basic land I can include, but it doesn't do me a ton of good if the rest of my lands are Mountains.
Swamp is the most useful land if everything else is a Mountain, but isn't hugely helpful otherwise.
Under a Blood Moon, Plains is borderline useless unless I have 2; and Forest is pretty useless even if I have a million.

I'm going to test an Island for a little while. And assuming it doesn't cause problems I will move on to testing a Swamp. Fortunately for me, Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon are not widely played in my area.

Davran
09-25-2018, 01:08 PM
Getting *some* value out of an Ass Trophy pointed at my permanent reduces the feel-bads. I can definitely spare 1 slot, but committing to a second is harder to say with certainty at this point. Island feels like the best option when looking at the mana requirements of the deck and assuming no Blood Moon effects on the table...

I suspect Trophy will be a highly played card, at least initially. And given that it can target anything, and that planeswalkers are harder to remove than other permanents, I expect many of those Trophies will target my walkers the turn before they ultimate.

I would expect that the Ass Trophy will be a staple in BGx decks basically forever. 2 mana to destroy a permanent at instant speed is pretty hard to leave on the cutting room floor, and the "downside" is hardly a downside in this format unless you're in a bleeding edge competitive game. My guess is that it'll replace Putrefy in a lot of BGx lists, unless they're also running something like Go for the Throat or whatever.

Now that I think about it, Golgari has gotten a decent removal spell out of each iteration of Ravinca...Putrefy the first time, Abrupt Decay the second, and now Assassin's Trophy in round 3. It's also somewhat illustrative of power creep over the years...

ronco
09-28-2018, 01:28 PM
Browsed through here to get some ideas for my atraxa deck.
Some cards that might be worthwhile, and I don't think I saw them mentioned in the pages:


Primevals' Glorious Rebirth
Kamahl's Druidic Vow
Genesis Wave


The first being a "reset button" (needing a legend in play already of course) and the latter being more extreme versions of deploy the gatewatch. The former also helps when you have those awkward turns of land a PW, use them once, then have them die next turn. Genesis Wave has a tough CC though.


Mind posting an updated list? Or is that what is being updated on the front page?

Ace/Homebrew
09-28-2018, 03:27 PM
Mind posting an updated list? Or is that what is being updated on the front page?
OP is always updated with my current list! :smile:


Primevals' Glorious Rebirth
Kamahl's Druidic Vow
Genesis Wave

Thanks for sharing suggestions! It's actually quite funny because Primevals' Glorious Rebirth came up at EDH last night.

Regarding Genesis Wave... as you noted, the :g::g::g: can be a bit tricky, but not impossible. It's more about investing mana (11 if I want to be able to land all potential hits) and a card into an unguaranteed outcome. This is very much a control deck, so unguaranteed outcomes are not something the deck wants.

Last night I was involved in a fairly epic 2 hour game (the primary fault of the game taking 2+ hours was mine) which would have gone my way except that my 3 opponents decided to treat me as the archenemy. Can't be too upset about that. But about an hour and a half into the game, an onlooker saw my graveyard full of planeswalkers and started making a case for Primevals' Glorious Rebirth.

My reasons against are as follows:
1.) Card does nothing on its own (it literally cannot be played) and requires you to have a somewhat favorable (or at least already defensible) board position, which means it's 'win-more'. The mana cost of :5::w::b: is misleading because it would require at a minimum 3 additional mana for me to play my very smallest planeswalker before casting it. It's 2 mana worse (and all of it colored) if I'm using Cromat to fulfill my legendary requirement. And it gets impossible if he's already been cast in the game and we're adding commander tax...

2.) Besides the infrequent 'god-hand', the path to victory with this deck is slow and plodding. After an hour and a half last night, I had exhausted my opponent's resources and still had 6 cards in hand, even after Will Kenrith set up a turn that let me play Kaya, Ghost Assassin, Sorin, Grim Nemesis, and Nahiri, the Harbinger. My opponent top-decked an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, which answered my board of 7 planeswalkers, but I still had a large enough hand to be the arch-enemy. This deck would rather have ways to answer an opponent's board than one that might give me an absurd advantage under specific pre-requisites.


- Game play has solidified the strength of Search for Azcanta in the deck. Ral Zarek/Teferi, Temporal Archmage, and Sol Ring are stupidly good once it flips to be Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin.
- Will Kenrith is insanely powerful. I missed a shuffle trigger with him last night, but hopefully that will make me remember it in the future.
- Arena Rector got me into a position to start controlling the game. I kept a 1-land (Tundra) hand with Sol Ring and Search for Azcanta and struggled for the first 7 turns as my opponents boards grew and grew and grew. With only 1 white source (the Tundra) and 6 total mana, I played Arena Rector. Next turn was Ral Zarek. Rector rattlesnaked away attacks into Ral, so when I untapped Ral killed the Rector, who found Teferi, and let me use my Tundra twice to cast Austere Command. I was firmly in control for the next 45 minutes until the top-decked Ugin mentioned above. From that point I was only loosely in control. :wink:
- I saw basic Island at the very end of the game (it was the last land I put into play). Still needs more testing.

ronco
09-28-2018, 03:44 PM
All valid arguments. My deck plays a little less control in the card sense and relies more on planeswalkers so i can see your point about not wanting to tap out.

Something else that might work for you in a control/land sense (if you have room) is Alchemist's Refuge. Gives all your walkers flash if you don't mind paying a little extra for them to give them an extra turn of protection from attackers (or instant speed sweeps, etc). I haven't tested this out but I certainly like to as leaving my superfriends exposed gives me sads.

ronco
10-03-2018, 04:11 PM
Is the Xenagos there to provide blockers and ramp? It seems like a bit of an odd inclusion, but it seems like you've had him in there for a while and seem content. I don't play red in mine (yet?) so I was curious how this has been working out for you.
I was also going to ask the same of Ashiok, seems like you've been on the fence a while. Any updates on why this is kept vs something else?

Ace/Homebrew
10-26-2018, 03:32 PM
Sorry for the delayed response!

Xenagos makes hasty creatures. Haste has been relevant more often than not! But yes, Xenagos makes dudes and ramps. He helps to go infinite with The Chain Veil by providing mana if something else gets it to untap.

I've also come around to Ashiok. It is brutal against combo opponents because it exiles. And occasionally it exiles a creature worth playing. Its ultimate is worrisome enough that most players will prioritize dealing with Ashiok over other things I'd rather keep around.


Just ordered a shiny Conspiracy Dack (FINALLY!) and a buy-a-box Search for Azcanta.
I also ordered:

Aminatou, the Fateshifter
Vivien Reid
Nissa, Vital Force

I intend to also get an Angrath, the Flame-Chained.

I like Aminatou's ability to blink things so I can reuse them, unlike Venser's blink ability. This will let me double-use planeswalkers and is a way to 'untap' The Chain Veil. The +1 isn't completely useless, and the ultimate could be fun.
Vivien Reid seems like a pretty decent upgrade from Freyalise. The elves aren't as good as the lands Vivien will find.
Big Nissa will replace little Nissa.

I haven't been thrilled with Djeru, so Angrath looks worthy enough to give a shot.

+ Aminatou, the Fateshifter
+ Vivien Reid
+ Nissa, Vital Force
+ Angrath, the Flame-Chained
- Venser, the Sojourner
- Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
- Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
- Djeru, With Eyes Open

ronco
11-16-2018, 02:14 PM
Aside from mainboarding in direct answers (tormod's crypt, etc) do you have any outs to Meren/Graveyard decks? Maybe it's just terrible luck but an active Meren with vampire hexmage/hex parasite has ruined a lot of games for me vs my superfriends build. I'm guessing I could put in bog as a silver bullet and take out a swamp (no true duals unfortunately) and just use tutors to find it? Then blink it as necessary for repeat effects? May have just answered my own question there but figured I would see if you've run into this before as well and how you handled/would handle it.

To further the point on Ashiok, i haven't gotten to do anything terribly fun (yet) with it, but it definitely diverts a lot of attention when it starts exiling cards. So our experience matches in that regard. Still not completely sold on it but might be heading that way.

Ace/Homebrew
11-16-2018, 08:15 PM
Hey man! I'll admit that the Meren/Hexmage loop isn't one I've had to fight against (yet). Since it bypasses the stack and can be sacrificed in response to anything, it's understandably a problem for superfriends...

I'd likely pursue one of two possible lines.

1.) Keep Meren off the board. If she becomes prohibitably expensive it prevents the loop. This is fairly draw dependant though.

2.) Kill the Meren player with Cromat! Sometimes Cromat has to earn his keep. :wink:

ronco
11-18-2018, 10:55 AM
touche.

Do EDH players double sleeve their decks?

Ace/Homebrew
11-19-2018, 12:58 AM
I do. I double sleeve every deck I have.

ronco
01-02-2019, 03:52 PM
Hot Damn! New Kaya give the super friends some graveyard interaction! Not sure if you need it in yours, but it's going in mine!

Ace/Homebrew
01-02-2019, 08:12 PM
Nice! At first glance, I prefer 4-mana Kaya. I haven't ruled out new Dovin yet though...

Davran
01-03-2019, 08:53 AM
Nice! At first glance, I prefer 4-mana Kaya. I haven't ruled out new Dovin yet though...

Really? The +1 doesn't seem like it does all that much for you basically ever. A thopter is fine, but your deck doesn't care about artifacts or gaining life, and plenty of walkers make tokens if a chump blocker is what you're after. The -7 is marginally better Dig Through Time, which you're already not running and would require you to jump through a whole lot fewer hoops if that's an effect you want. Am I missing something?

The new Kaya seems a lot stronger - graveyard hate is very good in this format, and your current list is pretty light on that. The -1 is also randomly useful if you think about it. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Skullclamp, Deathrite Shaman, Land Tax/Exploration/Burgeoning, Mystic Remora...there's quite a few powerful 1 CMC cards that would be decent to exile. Her -5 is kind of weak, but I think that's probably to her benefit since it makes her a heck of a lot less threatening, which means she's more likely to stick around to keep munching on graveyards. There's some random synergy with Ugin, Karn, and Merciless Eviction too, so maybe every once in a while you'll get someone for a 5+ point life swing or something.

Ace/Homebrew
01-03-2019, 01:55 PM
I just haven't ruled him out. :wink:

His +1 is essentially a do-nothing effect, which will ultimately disqualify him if I determine I cannot get him into minus-7-range within a turn or two.

Making tokens is always something, gaining life is just bonus.

And his ultimate is very good for a 3 mana (plus time) investment. I tried DTT and it got cut for not costing :u::u: ever and not being a planeswalker.

Again, totally not sold on him yet.

4 mana Kaya still seems stronger. She protects herself, can lock down a threat, and provides real card advantage.

New Kaya's ultimate does very little, and her other two abilities are extremely narrow. I'll keep her in mind tonight, but with Domri being the likely third walker of this set, I have a feeling Cromat will not be getting any new cards...

Davran
01-04-2019, 08:34 AM
I just haven't ruled him out. :wink:

His +1 is essentially a do-nothing effect, which will ultimately disqualify him if I determine I cannot get him into minus-7-range within a turn or two.

Making tokens is always something, gaining life is just bonus.

And his ultimate is very good for a 3 mana (plus time) investment. I tried DTT and it got cut for not costing :u::u: ever and not being a planeswalker.

Again, totally not sold on him yet.

I would see the -7 being potentially good if the +1 made the token, but as it stands the two abilities you actually want are -X abilities and therefore actively work against each other. You have to spend a bunch of turns doing actual nothing to draw three cards. It's basically a much more vulnerable Ancestral Vision at that point, isn't it?


4 mana Kaya still seems stronger. She protects herself, can lock down a threat, and provides real card advantage.

New Kaya's ultimate does very little, and her other two abilities are extremely narrow. I'll keep her in mind tonight, but with Domri being the likely third walker of this set, I have a feeling Cromat will not be getting any new cards...

My first thought was "why not both?", then I remembered you're going for the one of each type thing. So yeah, if I had to choose between Kayas I'd pick the 4 mana one too.

Ace/Homebrew
04-06-2019, 04:58 PM
We're a good way into spoilers for War of the Spark and there are definitely some new cards that look good. :laugh:

But first, I have been playing with Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh instead of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker and I think I'll be keeping the change. God-Pharaoh is easier to cast and is better against a pod (although Planeswalker is unquestionably better against a single opponent).

Now for new cards!

Niv-Mizzet Reborn is the first :w::u::b::r::g: Legend that made me actually reconsider Cromat as the general... However the deck has too many colorless or mono-colored 'must haves' to maximize the card advantage that new Niv could provide. I'm disappointed, but only a little. :tongue:

Liliana, Dreadhorde General will absolutely take the place of Liliana Vess. Excited to make this swap. Her -4 is amazing and the static clause is just gravy.

I will also definitely be including Karn's Bastion. Repeatable proliferate on a land is sweet.
Basic Island has been fine, but hasn't proven to be as beneficial as I thought it would be.

Honorable mention to Evolution Sage. That card is waaaaaaay powerful. I'm just not sure that I can abuse it enough to warrant a spot. And I'm not sure what I'd cut...

Qige
04-14-2019, 08:44 PM
We're a good way into spoilers for War of the Spark and there are definitely some new cards that look good. :laugh:

But first, I have been playing with Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh instead of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker and I think I'll be keeping the change. God-Pharaoh is easier to cast and is better against a pod (although Planeswalker is unquestionably better against a single opponent).

Now for new cards!

Niv-Mizzet Reborn is the first :w::u::b::r::g: Legend that made me actually reconsider Cromat as the general... However the deck has too many colorless or mono-colored 'must haves' to maximize the card advantage that new Niv could provide. I'm disappointed, but only a little. :tongue:

Liliana, Dreadhorde General will absolutely take the place of Liliana Vess. Excited to make this swap. Her -4 is amazing and the static clause is just gravy.

I will also definitely be including Karn's Bastion. Repeatable proliferate on a land is sweet.
Basic Island has been fine, but hasn't proven to be as beneficial as I thought it would be.

Honorable mention to Evolution Sage. That card is waaaaaaay powerful. I'm just not sure that I can abuse it enough to warrant a spot. And I'm not sure what I'd cut...


Hey man, can you post your updated decklist? I'm just curious, I haven't actually played magic in a couple of years. Was reading some of your newer posts, cool choices! So many good options now that are available compared to back when.

Ace/Homebrew
04-14-2019, 10:12 PM
Hey man!
The opening post is always my updated list. :wink:

I'm really going back and forth over Niv... I've been goldfishing and the card draw from Niv is reeeally good. I only get 2-3 cards, but that's still pretty amazing. Especially because I can build with the ability in mind for the future and average 3-4.

Cromat may be in trouble...

Ace/Homebrew
04-13-2020, 01:36 PM
Almost a year since my last update post! Unfortunately this past year has not allowed me much opportunity to get actual gameplay in... Change in jobs resulted in a schedule which wasn't conducive for Magic. And now the current world environment has all game stores closed. :frown:

Even without getting to play, I continued tinkering with the deck. I very seriously tried to swap Cromat out for the 5 color Niv Mizzet, but the deck just didn't play out the way I wanted it to. So Cromat stayed, although the experiment made me re-evaluate many of the cards I had previously considered 'untouchable'. I think some of my Niv Mizzet swaps will stand the test of time; others will be replaced for fun new stuff that comes out.

Anyway, here are the changes from the past year:

- Island
- Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Samut, the Tested
- Kaya, Ghost Assassin
- Gideon Jura
- Liliana Vess
- Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
- Karn Liberated
- Garruk, Apex Predator
- Arena Rector
- Dissipate
- Render Silent

And the new cards:

+ Karn's Bastion
+ Wrenn and Six
+ Oko, Thief of Crowns
+ Ashiok, Dream Render
+ Karn, Scion of Urza
+ Garruk, Cursed Huntsman
+ Liliana, Dreadhorde General
+ Elspeth, Sun's Champion
+ The Elderspell
+ Dovin's Veto
+ Countersquall
+ Bring to Light
+ Assemble the Legion

ronco
04-21-2020, 04:40 PM
I'm a big fan of the elspeth swap. Lots of protection and re-usable wraths has won me a lot of head to head games (not sure if that is your usual game mode or not).

One of the new Ultimatums can bring all the things back from the graveyard, and unlike the Primeval's glorious rebirth, doesn't require a legend to cast it. And it brings back your fetches too! I'll probably make that swap in my list as I do enjoy running that bomb.

Glad to see some updates!

Ace/Homebrew
06-10-2020, 02:35 PM
Glad to see some updates!
Thanks man! Happy to make some updates. :wink:

2021 is being spoiled, and nothing has caught my eye yet. But Ikoria had 2 gems:

+ Whirlwind of Thought
+ Nesting Grounds

- Assemble the Legion
- Karn's Bastion

The enchantment is pretty sweet since all but 1 of my non-land cards draw a replacement. Assemble always seems like it'll be great, but I'm never that happy to see it.
Karn's Bastion was too much mana for the effect. :frown: Nesting Grounds is less impressive of an ability, but the lower commitment means it'll actually get used.

Qige
11-07-2021, 07:14 PM
Thanks man! Happy to make some updates. :wink:

2021 is being spoiled, and nothing has caught my eye yet. But Ikoria had 2 gems:

+ Whirlwind of Thought
+ Nesting Grounds

- Assemble the Legion
- Karn's Bastion

The enchantment is pretty sweet since all but 1 of my non-land cards draw a replacement. Assemble always seems like it'll be great, but I'm never that happy to see it.
Karn's Bastion was too much mana for the effect. :frown: Nesting Grounds is less impressive of an ability, but the lower commitment means it'll actually get used.

It's been awhile ace. Dropped mtg for a while and started playing online with friends.

https://archidekt.com/decks/1928777#5_Color_planeswalker

Here's my new version. The Prismatic Bridge is just the best in slot for 5 color planeswalker, not super busted. I run like 3-5 cards that are higher than 6CMC. I can take advantage with it by using scroll rack, sylvan library, top, various PW. Arena Reactor, really good for a blocker / easy to die to boardwipes. Fetches Ugin or 7CMC Bolas. Teferi's Protection is unreal. It allows a developed board to maintain essentially another "free" turn. I've been using it on my green white life gain deck and just loving it. Fierce Guardianship one of the best counterspells. Having a 0 costed counter spell is huge. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager This guy is a 4 mana 4/4 flyer that etb's your opponents to discard a card and transforms into a GREAT pw if he manages to survive. He quickly becomes a threat. Faeburrow Elder This guy is ramping at least 2 mana sometimes more for 3 mana. Plus hes a creature that scales really well. Carth the Lion, he is on average going to net you a card. Probably more if you have other walkers. So he's great on an empty board / on a developed board. Great card. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice He does everything for 4 mana. Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider just nasty, especially pulling him with the bridge.

I went with a lot of 2 mana ramp cards like farseek, fellwar stone etc.. because the majority of my curve is at 4 mana. So playing a 4 mana card on turn 3 is pretty huge, and I reliably want to do that.

Here's some other decks I've been playing.
https://archidekt.com/user/129534


edit: quickly looking at your mimeoplasm deck. You want Vilis, Broker of Blood He let's you draw 8 if you cast reanimate / death.

Ace/Homebrew
04-13-2022, 08:40 AM
Hey Qige!

Yeah, Prismatic Bridge looks sweet. Unfortunately I disassembled Cromat during the Pandemic. It was due to a combination of reasons...

1.) The deck being foil meant I had to pay a premium for new cards as they came out, which was exacerbated by
2.) Rarely got to play due to the pandemic, and even when I had the chance I was more likely to play Mimeoplasm or Gishath because games with Cromat were ALWAYS an hour+
3.) I wanted to grow my Legacy card pool

Additionally, WotC has dramatically increased the ability to directly interact with planeswalkers. I miss the deck, but I don't regret my decision. I also realized that re-building it in non-foil is highly achievable if I ever feel the need to do so. I took photos before I sold it off, which I will try to upload and post as a closing tribute to the deck.

It was a lot of fun while it lasted! :laugh: