[Deck] Painter-Stone

[CptHaddock]

Let me know your thoughts. Not sure how to make the Storm matchup better.

- Zac

I think that is a big problem with that list. This deck has always had game against decks like storm in that you can race them and by actively taking out things like intuition and transmute artifact in favor grinding cards you slow yourself down a lot. I feel like if that is your approach you actively need to have cards in your sideboard to disrupt storm. I'd play more discard, flusterstorms, you also have the option more artifact based hate like phyrexian revoker. Drude's original list has the helm/leyline combo so you have another combo to race against combo, that is also a pretty good plan.

[Hisa]

I think that is a big problem with that list. This deck has always had game against decks like storm in that you can race them and by actively taking out things like intuition and transmute artifact in favor grinding cards. I feel like if that is your approach you actively need to have cards in your sideboard to disrupt storm. I'd play more discard, flusterstorms, you also have the option more artifact based hate like phyrexian revoker. Drude's original list has the helm/leyline combo so you have another combo to race against combo, that is also a pretty good plan.


This is absolutely correct. By reducing the speed of the combo and trading it for a better fair game you lose a lot of points vs fast combo. The storm matchups are not unwinable, but you're definitely behind. I think this is true of any midrange control deck.


I don't like Helm combo in this deck, especially if you're cutting Ancient Tombs. It's good in Tezzerator and the like because of the 7+ sol lands (and mox opal / diamond) which lets you reliably cast and activate t2 or t3. The manabase in the midrange version of this deck isn't designed to do that, and helm is way less scary on t5. It also takes up infinite sideboard slots.

[waz]

Picked up the deck again and it felt almost as smooth as before. Really nice work Hisa.

I tried 1 of Hope of Ghirapur in place of the Greaves. Never saw it in the small tournament I ran the deck in, but in a practice game against czech pile, it allowed me to t2 combo. As well, I like that it can suit up a copter, and is another 1 drop artifact for opal.

[Hisa]

Picked up the deck again and it felt almost as smooth as before. Really nice work Hisa.

I tried 1 of Hope of Ghirapur in place of the Greaves. Never saw it in the small tournament I ran the deck in, but in a practice game against czech pile, it allowed me to t2 combo. As well, I like that it can suit up a copter, and is another 1 drop artifact for opal.

Thank you.

I was messing around with HoG before the Top ban. I like it too, and its very good against storm, especially if you have Welder.

[Hisa]

So, the Imperial thread is discussing Grim Lavamancer. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it, as it gets punished by GY hate (which is probably coming in anyway), but it crews copter and seems like it could be great against Dilbert, DRS, Pyrobro et al. So I'll probably test a couple in the board, see how it goes.

[waz]

It's an interesting way of getting around the search for azcanta issue of putting cards in the graveyard which fuels an opponent's DRS.

I was considering a relic for that purpose.

[NinjaSonic]

Has anybody else tried Caleb's list? I love Painter's Sevant and have been going back and forth between Grixis and the mono red list but wasn't a fan of the lists on the Imperial Painter threads.

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

maybe this spoiler can do something with U painter?


The Antiquities War
3U Enchantment — Saga

(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)

I, II — Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

III — Artifacts you control become artifact creatures with base power and toughness 5/5 until end of turn.

[Hisa]

Hi,

maybe this spoiler can do something with U painter?


The Antiquities War
3U Enchantment — Saga

(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)

I, II — Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.

III — Artifacts you control become artifact creatures with base power and toughness 5/5 until end of turn.


I am way more excited about Damping Sphere.

https://i.imgur.com/owZCxNK.png

[merfolkotpt]

Damping sphere is interesting to me too, though the shell feels like it would need to change also.

[jasper]

I am way more excited about Damping Sphere.

https://i.imgur.com/owZCxNK.png

What does Damping Sphere provide the deck with that it can't already get with other cards? Not that I can't see it being useful, but genuinely interested in where people see it as having the most application.

[Hisa]

What does Damping Sphere provide the deck with that it can't already get with other cards? Not that I can't see it being useful, but genuinely interested in where people see it as having the most application.

Damping Sphere is artifact based hate for Storm. It is targeted hate which synergies with the deck for a relatively common bad matchup.

[jasper]

Damping Sphere is artifact based hate for Storm. It is targeted hate which synergies with the deck for a relatively common bad matchup.

Don't Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst already do this job? The trade-off being that Thorn taxes some of our spells but Damping Sphere makes our sol lands worse. That said, in builds like yours with only one Tomb I can see how Damping Sphere is an upgrade.

[drude1]

The other big benefit of damping sphere is against post and other big Mana decks. This card is also descent against any deck playing a bunch of cantrips and it has some play against omniscience.
(PS. Stupid auto correct)
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[drude1]

Anyone else still playing/working on this deck?
Sadly, I think I am giving up on Smuggler's copter. It combo's really well with Tezzeret, but we otherwise run pretty few creatures and I've been finding it really hard to consistently crew. I just ended up swapping those out for a couple ponders and the deck feels a lot smoother. This is where I am currently at with the deck:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass

Once damping sphere becomes legal I will probably play one of those main, moving the ratchet bomb to the board and probably cutting the ancient tombs for another island and maybe try out an Academy Ruins.

Speaking of damping sphere, I think that is definitely a maindeck-able card. Here is a short list of the decks it screws over...
storm, belcher (if you can get it out on time), manaless dredge, elves (big time), eldrazi, 12 post, MUD, Aluren, any omniscience deck, any other deck that wants to play more than 2 spells in a turn. I play a one-of canonist in R/W painter and it is always good. This card functions similarly, albeit maybe not quite as good against Miracles, but better against any big mana decks. Really looking forward to this card.

[jasper]

Anyone else still playing/working on this deck?
Sadly, I think I am giving up on Smuggler's copter. It combo's really well with Tezzeret, but we otherwise run pretty few creatures and I've been finding it really hard to consistently crew. I just ended up swapping those out for a couple ponders and the deck feels a lot smoother. This is where I am currently at with the deck:

Once damping sphere becomes legal I will probably play one of those main, moving the ratchet bomb to the board and probably cutting the ancient tombs for another island and maybe try out an Academy Ruins.

Speaking of damping sphere, I think that is definitely a maindeck-able card. Here is a short list of the decks it screws over...
storm, belcher (if you can get it out on time), manaless dredge, elves (big time), eldrazi, 12 post, MUD, Aluren, any omniscience deck, any other deck that wants to play more than 2 spells in a turn. I play a one-of canonist in R/W painter and it is always good. This card functions similarly, albeit maybe not quite as good against Miracles, but better against any big mana decks. Really looking forward to this card.

I played a similar list to yours (no Copters) over the weekend in a league, unfortunately finishing 2-3. I found that the deck does powerful things, but that the mana is just atrocious. Baleful Strix was often left stranded in my hand, reaching double blue was awkward, and I don't think I ever managed to cast Daretti. There is also a fundamental, difficult-to-reconcile tension between Mox Opal and Brainstorm. Mox Opal wants you to play artifact lands to turn it on and enables and encourages you to play out your (proactive) cards quickly. Brainstorm, on the other hand, wants you to play lots of fetches (I don't think five is enough, really) and wants you to keep (reactive) cards in hand.

Academy Ruins is a card I like a lot, but I think I would find it difficult to justify given the already shaky manabase of the deck. Inventor's Fair is similarly poorly positioned. I think the best colourless lands for the deck are Ancient Tomb just because of the boost in speed.

I think Damping Sphere warrants testing in the maindeck, and the comparison to Canonist is an interesting one. That said, Canonist is tutorable by Recruiter and much better against decks that just want to cast two spells a turn, because paying three mana for two one-mana spells isn't actually that inconvenient.

I would be very wary of cutting Ratchet Bomb from the main deck. Doing so leaves you with only one (pretty questionable) answer to Chalice in form of Daretti.


The first part of a three-part article series I've written about Painter, specifically my Mono-Blue list featuring Chalice of the Void, has just gone up on The Library at Pendrell Vale. It's a short history of (recent) Painter decks and talks about why I designed the deck to include Chalice in first place. I'd love to hear people's thoughts and hope I haven't made too many egregious mistakes in the history section. Check it out below if you're interested!

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-brief-history-of-modern-painting/

Parts 2 and 3 will be out over the course of the week, which go much deeper into the card choices in the deck and the sideboard. Stay tuned!

[drude1]

I played a similar list to yours (no Copters) over the weekend in a league, unfortunately finishing 2-3. I found that the deck does powerful things, but that the mana is just atrocious. Baleful Strix was often left stranded in my hand, reaching double blue was awkward, and I don't think I ever managed to cast Daretti. There is also a fundamental, difficult-to-reconcile tension between Mox Opal and Brainstorm. Mox Opal wants you to play artifact lands to turn it on and enables and encourages you to play out your (proactive) cards quickly. Brainstorm, on the other hand, wants you to play lots of fetches (I don't think five is enough, really) and wants you to keep (reactive) cards in hand.

Academy Ruins is a card I like a lot, but I think I would find it difficult to justify given the already shaky manabase of the deck. Inventor's Fair is similarly poorly positioned. I think the best colourless lands for the deck are Ancient Tomb just because of the boost in speed.

I think Damping Sphere warrants testing in the maindeck, and the comparison to Canonist is an interesting one. That said, Canonist is tutorable by Recruiter and much better against decks that just want to cast two spells a turn, because paying three mana for two one-mana spells isn't actually that inconvenient.

I would be very wary of cutting Ratchet Bomb from the main deck. Doing so leaves you with only one (pretty questionable) answer to Chalice in form of Daretti.


The first part of a three-part article series I've written about Painter, specifically my Mono-Blue list featuring Chalice of the Void, has just gone up on The Library at Pendrell Vale. It's a short history of (recent) Painter decks and talks about why I designed the deck to include Chalice in first place. I'd love to hear people's thoughts and hope I haven't made too many egregious mistakes in the history section. Check it out below if you're interested!

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-brief-history-of-modern-painting/

Parts 2 and 3 will be out over the course of the week, which go much deeper into the card choices in the deck and the sideboard. Stay tuned!

Just want to make sure you see the two transmute artifact in the deck. That answers a lot of your scenarios. For example, you say I only have one answer to chalice in the main but I actually have 3 (without ratchet bomb). For the same reason, I essentially will have 3 copies of damping sphere (2 "tutors") so the comparison to canonist is very applicable. Canonist is better against certain decks (eg. has a little more application against control decks) but damping sphere is better against a bunch of decks that are generally really bad match-ups for us, notably Eldrazi ramp. And it's still just as good against elves, omniscience, storm. I think your comments about brainstorm are primarily related to play-style. I am using brainstorm and ponder to find combo pieces, silver bullets and lands I need (by the way, there are 6 fetches). I'm typically not using it to find "reactionary" cards. Really, other than the blasts and force, there aren't many reactionary cards in the deck. I've really been having good luck with the deck, running at about a 70-75% win rate over the last several weeks. I keep making tweaks (just cut a search for azcanta for a third tezz). I do really like the ancient tombs but obviously they become less good with sphere. We'll see how that goes.

I did play the whir deck on Monday night. However, I actually played a version splashing black for tezz and the thopter/sword combo. Went 3-1, beating lands, burn and miracles and lost to elves. As I mentioned in the other thread, I beat lands game one just because I had a crap ton of basics and turn 2 I combo'd quickly with leyline/helm. Just got super lucky against burn as I combo'd on turn 3 in game 2 and dropped 3sphere turn 2 of game 3 and he never saw a third land. Overall it's probably a better MU for whir than other versions specifically due to chalice, but I never saw one. I did see chalice every game against elves but he just played around it. He choked me game 3 at an opportune time and I just got blown out from there. Whir is good against miracles and he just got beat down by thopters both games even after multiple terminus.

It's a pretty fun deck but does feel quite a bit slower than other versions. It also has some really bad draws as well, as the curve is a little high. I think I would probably play a couple mox diamonds in the list to add speed and turn redundant sol lands into something more useful. I do like playing chalice as it feels a little like blood moon in that it just doesn't let your opponent play magic sometimes. Whir is also a hell of a card as long as you have the mana for it.

[Noctalor]

Im doing good with this list link (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27058&iddeck=214556)

not the usual build, painterstone is more of a late game finisher, but its working for me, sadly, elves seems a nightmare.
Im thinking about going for a w splash for plows, etutor and some lock pieces tho.

[Cyanhur]

Im doing good with this list link (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27058&iddeck=214556)

not the usual build, painterstone is more of a late game finisher, but its working for me, sadly, elves seems a nightmare.
Im thinking about going for a w splash for plows, etutor and some lock pieces tho.

Can you tell us your feedback?
I saw this list and it's the first recent list with this build.

[Noctalor]

Can you tell us your feedback?
I saw this list and it's the first recent list with this build.

Well, firstly the deck plays like a control, the combo is absolutely secondary.

The deck is basicly a control with some really nutty plays, we have a good edge against most combo and pretty much a bye against control.
We need a really solid play to overcome delver, id suggest to try some Harvest Pyre or even Roast in order to deal with pesky anglers and goyfs, meekstone helped me a lot during that specific tournament, I was able to beat a tombstalker team america thanks to them.

In general, the deck feels pretty decent against anything playing creatures we can bolt, and struggles to beat heavy threats (still, eldrazi ramp is an absolute bye for us).
In the near future ill test thw W list, plow should help immensly.

[CptHaddock]

Well, firstly the deck plays like a control, the combo is absolutely secondary.

The deck is basicly a control with some really nutty plays, we have a good edge against most combo and pretty much a bye against control.
We need a really solid play to overcome delver, id suggest to try some Harvest Pyre or even Roast in order to deal with pesky anglers and goyfs, meekstone helped me a lot during that specific tournament, I was able to beat a tombstalker team america thanks to them.

In general, the deck feels pretty decent against anything playing creatures we can bolt, and struggles to beat heavy threats (still, eldrazi ramp is an absolute bye for us).
In the near future ill test thw W list, plow should help immensly.

Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo :cry:, which doesn't help out when it comes to combo.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
3 Pyroblast
1 Trinket Mage
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
3 Painter's Servant
3 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grindstone
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Great Furnace
2 Arid Mesa
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Flusterstorm
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone

[Noctalor]

Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo :cry:, which doesn't help out when it comes to combo.

list

Generally speaking, combo is decent, its kinda hard for them to overcome the barrage of counters, and clique is super important because we are likely to win those games by racing with a snap/vendilion.
In your list there are a few things I know for a fact that wont work considering my tests.

1 Trinket : its too weak, really, despite it being a natural fit in the deck there is no way we can afford to tap 3 sorcery for a 2/2

2 jace : Imho jace is currently kinda weak, we have an hard time making sure the board is good enough to cast him, and the amount of reb effect is super high, also pyromancer is gives jace an hard time, i am playing 1 and considering 0, but he still is game if landed correctly, 1 copy is the correct amount imho, id rather play some other planeswalker than multiple copies of jace, dack is doing wonders for me atm

2 recruiter : same as Trinket, hella bad w/o sol lands

1 grindstone : is not enought, because we cant afford to be forced to go for academy if it gets countered/discarded, playing the second copy makes the deck work much smoother, also searching for grind w azcanta becomes much easier, that's the reason why im playing 2, even if the card is often not that good, we have enought manipolation to get rid of it, also it doubles our chances to go off naturally, which is not that bad

[Hisa]

Your list looks sweet, I have something like that "brewed" up and only got a few matches in. How have the cliques been? That card looks kind of clunky on paper. I can't imagine that any of the combo matchups are that good since you're giving up the ability to race them in favor of more grindy elements. Also the deck lost the ability to play the countertop combo :cry:, which doesn't help out when it comes to combo.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
3 Pyroblast
1 Trinket Mage
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
3 Painter's Servant
3 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grindstone
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Great Furnace
2 Arid Mesa
4 Lightning Bolt

1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Flusterstorm
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone


So I think that the removal of Welder, artifact lands, the full set of Grindstones, etc. makes this is a fundamentally different deck than the one we've been discussing. I don't think that that's bad, necessarily. This list is much more of a classic UR Control list, with REBs and Painter to cheat. I was playing something not super far from this in 2010 (JFC I'm old), and I really think its begging for a set of Lavabros.

I've been away from the game for a few weeks because of work and life and stuff, but I am almost certainly gonna give a list like this a couple of tries in the next week or so.

[drude1]

Although I'm not super interested in this list specifically I will get behind a list that plays 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder. I was just listening to a podcast that made a good argument explaining why you don't short yourself on those cards. It seems that if you are playing blue, there is no reason to not play for that consistency. I would also say that if your plan is to play more of a control/grindy game then I would also definitely play more search for azcanta, as that card just takes over games when going long. It also help you to get through the deck to find a grindstone if you aren't going to play 4.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[jasper]

Just want to make sure you see the two transmute artifact in the deck. That answers a lot of your scenarios. For example, you say I only have one answer to chalice in the main but I actually have 3 (without ratchet bomb). For the same reason, I essentially will have 3 copies of damping sphere (2 "tutors") so the comparison to canonist is very applicable. Canonist is better against certain decks (eg. has a little more application against control decks) but damping sphere is better against a bunch of decks that are generally really bad match-ups for us, notably Eldrazi ramp. And it's still just as good against elves, omniscience, storm. I think your comments about brainstorm are primarily related to play-style. I am using brainstorm and ponder to find combo pieces, silver bullets and lands I need (by the way, there are 6 fetches). I'm typically not using it to find "reactionary" cards. Really, other than the blasts and force, there aren't many reactionary cards in the deck. I've really been having good luck with the deck, running at about a 70-75% win rate over the last several weeks. I keep making tweaks (just cut a search for azcanta for a third tezz). I do really like the ancient tombs but obviously they become less good with sphere. We'll see how that goes.

I did play the whir deck on Monday night. However, I actually played a version splashing black for tezz and the thopter/sword combo. Went 3-1, beating lands, burn and miracles and lost to elves. As I mentioned in the other thread, I beat lands game one just because I had a crap ton of basics and turn 2 I combo'd quickly with leyline/helm. Just got super lucky against burn as I combo'd on turn 3 in game 2 and dropped 3sphere turn 2 of game 3 and he never saw a third land. Overall it's probably a better MU for whir than other versions specifically due to chalice, but I never saw one. I did see chalice every game against elves but he just played around it. He choked me game 3 at an opportune time and I just got blown out from there. Whir is good against miracles and he just got beat down by thopters both games even after multiple terminus.

It's a pretty fun deck but does feel quite a bit slower than other versions. It also has some really bad draws as well, as the curve is a little high. I think I would probably play a couple mox diamonds in the list to add speed and turn redundant sol lands into something more useful. I do like playing chalice as it feels a little like blood moon in that it just doesn't let your opponent play magic sometimes. Whir is also a hell of a card as long as you have the mana for it.

Yeah, you're right that Transmute Artifact gives you a few extra outs to things. Still, Transmute is pretty slow and card disadvantage as opposed to card advantage like Recruiter, so using it to find cards that aren't combo pieces comes at a higher price. What makes Eldrazi ramp a bad matchup in your experience? I've found that Painter slows them down significantly and you can lock them out with bridge. I disagree that Damping Sphere is as good against Elves and Omniscience as Canonist. It's still considerably worse because Elves can generate enough large amounts of mana in order to be able to pay the tax on at least one or two spells, meaning that it slows them down but doesn't stop their shenanigans entirely. Omniscience means they have extra mana lying around and can plausibly cast an answer to the sphere on the same turn as they have cast omniscience. It's pretty similar against Storm, yes, but still weaker as they can cast a discard spell and a cantrip in the same turn, for example.

Good to hear you had some success with a whir version. I've built it as a blue-black deck splashing for tezz and thopter-sword, too, but I didn't find that it added that much. Tezz AoB is pretty awkward with a chalice on one in that deck because he can't find half of your combo. Thopter-sword is strong but again very slow—against decks like miracles it seems pretty great. Choke is definitely a blow-out, and possibly something worth trying to find an answer for.

I'm not sure how much slower it is than the other decks. You still have a lot of fast mana and can combo on turn 2 or 3, but only running a couple of copies of Grindstone lowers your chances of drawing the combo naturally. I used to play Mox Diamonds but found them pretty clunky in hands with only one or two lands. The deck needs a fair few mana sources, and Mox Diamond doesn't actually up the number of sources in the deck in practice.

Since writing the articles I've been testing a couple of Chrome Mox which does double duty as ramp and as another blue source which is important for whir.

Maindeck

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grindstone
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
1 Spellskite

4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Whir of Invention
1 Transmute Artifact

2 Search for Azcanta

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

13 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista

That's the list I played last night at the legacy weekly, going 3-1 against Mono-Red Sneak, Elves, Esper Mentor and 4c Loam, with the loss coming against Esper Mentor. Didn't drop a game against the other three decks.

If anyone's interested, all three parts of my series are now up.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the first part (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-brief-history-of-modern-painting/) is a history of the recent developments in the Painter archetype since the Sensei's Divining Top ban. I go into my reasons for eschewing the traditional shells for Painter, namely Imperial Painter/Strawberry Shortcake and Painted Stone, and my thinking behind including Chalice.

In the second part (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/the-painters-palette/), there's an in-depth discussion of the cards in the main deck and how to get the best use out of them. There are a lot of fun niche interactions with cards like Painter's Servant in Legacy—did you know, for example, that if you have a Chrome Mox imprinting a blue card, and you name red with Painter's Servant you can tap your Chrome Mox for red mana as well?

Part three (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-broad-canvas-of-options/) talks about a number of sideboard options for the deck as well as possible cards to play in the main deck. It's not a sideboard guide per se, but that is something I'm working on as well so stay tuned.


Although I'm not super interested in this list specifically I will get behind a list that plays 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder. I was just listening to a podcast that made a good argument explaining why you don't short yourself on those cards. It seems that if you are playing blue, there is no reason to not play for that consistency. I would also say that if your plan is to play more of a control/grindy game then I would also definitely play more search for azcanta, as that card just takes over games when going long. It also help you to get through the deck to find a grindstone if you aren't going to play 4.

The problem I have with more controlling lists is that I think, if playing a brew, one should have a good reason for not playing an established deck—A+B combo decks need to justify being better than Sneak and Show, control needs to justify being better than Miracles, and so on. Of course, playing Painter is sweet and reason enough in itself in terms of having fun, but as far as actual deckbuilding goes I think it's worth evaluating what you gain and what you lose by trying to build, say, a more controlling version of Painter.

That said, Search for Azcanta is definitely a sweet card and I think Noctalor's list could use it to good effect.

[sroncor1]

Actually I think I was wrong, with the way exile now works. I am sorry.


Seth

[drude1]

Yeah, you're right that Transmute Artifact gives you a few extra outs to things. Still, Transmute is pretty slow and card disadvantage as opposed to card advantage like Recruiter, so using it to find cards that aren't combo pieces comes at a higher price. What makes Eldrazi ramp a bad matchup in your experience? I've found that Painter slows them down significantly and you can lock them out with bridge. I disagree that Damping Sphere is as good against Elves and Omniscience as Canonist. It's still considerably worse because Elves can generate enough large amounts of mana in order to be able to pay the tax on at least one or two spells, meaning that it slows them down but doesn't stop their shenanigans entirely. Omniscience means they have extra mana lying around and can plausibly cast an answer to the sphere on the same turn as they have cast omniscience. It's pretty similar against Storm, yes, but still weaker as they can cast a discard spell and a cantrip in the same turn, for example.

Good to hear you had some success with a whir version. I've built it as a blue-black deck splashing for tezz and thopter-sword, too, but I didn't find that it added that much. Tezz AoB is pretty awkward with a chalice on one in that deck because he can't find half of your combo. Thopter-sword is strong but again very slow—against decks like miracles it seems pretty great. Choke is definitely a blow-out, and possibly something worth trying to find an answer for.

I'm not sure how much slower it is than the other decks. You still have a lot of fast mana and can combo on turn 2 or 3, but only running a couple of copies of Grindstone lowers your chances of drawing the combo naturally. I used to play Mox Diamonds but found them pretty clunky in hands with only one or two lands. The deck needs a fair few mana sources, and Mox Diamond doesn't actually up the number of sources in the deck in practice.

Since writing the articles I've been testing a couple of Chrome Mox which does double duty as ramp and as another blue source which is important for whir.

Maindeck

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grindstone
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
1 Spellskite

4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Whir of Invention
1 Transmute Artifact

2 Search for Azcanta

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

13 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista

That's the list I played last night at the legacy weekly, going 3-1 against Mono-Red Sneak, Elves, Esper Mentor and 4c Loam, with the loss coming against Esper Mentor. Didn't drop a game against the other three decks.

If anyone's interested, all three parts of my series are now up.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the first part (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-brief-history-of-modern-painting/) is a history of the recent developments in the Painter archetype since the Sensei's Divining Top ban. I go into my reasons for eschewing the traditional shells for Painter, namely Imperial Painter/Strawberry Shortcake and Painted Stone, and my thinking behind including Chalice.

In the second part (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/the-painters-palette/), there's an in-depth discussion of the cards in the main deck and how to get the best use out of them. There are a lot of fun niche interactions with cards like Painter's Servant in Legacy—did you know, for example, that if you have a Chrome Mox imprinting a blue card, and you name red with Painter's Servant you can tap your Chrome Mox for red mana as well?

Part three (https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/a-broad-canvas-of-options/) talks about a number of sideboard options for the deck as well as possible cards to play in the main deck. It's not a sideboard guide per se, but that is something I'm working on as well so stay tuned.



The problem I have with more controlling lists is that I think, if playing a brew, one should have a good reason for not playing an established deck—A+B combo decks need to justify being better than Sneak and Show, control needs to justify being better than Miracles, and so on. Of course, playing Painter is sweet and reason enough in itself in terms of having fun, but as far as actual deckbuilding goes I think it's worth evaluating what you gain and what you lose by trying to build, say, a more controlling version of Painter.

That said, Search for Azcanta is definitely a sweet card and I think Noctalor's list could use it to good effect.Yes, transmute is definitely a little durdley but it is mostly finding you combo pieces or ensnaring bridge to keep you in the game or helm for alternate win, etc. With a welder in play the transmute is much much better. As for damping sphere, it's good against omniscience because it will at least likely give you a turn and they will have a hard time winning with release the ants so bridge is better. Against elves it is quite good because it will limit them from just unloading all their Guys early and it shuts off cradle so they don't have all the Mana.


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[jasper]

Yes, transmute is definitely a little durdley but it is mostly finding you combo pieces or ensnaring bridge to keep you in the game or helm for alternate win, etc. With a welder in play the transmute is much much better. As for damping sphere, it's good against omniscience because it will at least likely give you a turn and they will have a hard time winning with release the ants so bridge is better. Against elves it is quite good because it will limit them from just unloading all their Guys early and it shuts off cradle so they don't have all the Mana.

Yeah, with a Welder Transmute gets a lot better. I'd just hesitate to call it extra copies of a card like Damping Sphere because the effect isn't game winning against most decks and you'd probably be better off trying to do something proactive.

I think the card is a reasonable option, but I would be cautious of overvaluing it against a deck like Elves. Yes, it shuts off cradle, which is strong, but overall they still have Heritage Druid to make a fair bit of mana. Playing two or three guys each turn across several turns is very feasible, which is relevant in terms of the comparison to Ethersworn Canonist. It's better than a card like Sphere against Elves, but you wouldn't bring in Sphere for the matchup.

[drude1]

Yeah, with a Welder Transmute gets a lot better. I'd just hesitate to call it extra copies of a card like Damping Sphere because the effect isn't game winning against most decks and you'd probably be better off trying to do something proactive.

I think the card is a reasonable option, but I would be cautious of overvaluing it against a deck like Elves. Yes, it shuts off cradle, which is strong, but overall they still have Heritage Druid to make a fair bit of mana. Playing two or three guys each turn across several turns is very feasible, which is relevant in terms of the comparison to Ethersworn Canonist. It's better than a card like Sphere against Elves, but you wouldn't bring in Sphere for the matchup.Don't get me wrong, canonist is leaps and bounds above sphere in general. But we aren't playing white. I was playing canonist main in shortcake for a long time, mostly for the storm match up. In game one in particular it just won the game. I really like playing those tool box sort of answers and we don't have that kind of card right now. Against storm sphere functions similarly while also being pretty good in your hand against decks like elves and various big Mana decks. Btw, If you haven't played against eldrazi ramp before the match up is atrocious. You can't combo them due to eldrazi shufflers and they eventually just draw ulamog and blow up your prison pieces and just win. This card would maybe slow them down enough for us to get our plan together. And true, I would never use transmute to go get this card but I wouldn't hate seeing it either.

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[Noctalor]

Yeah,
...
Of course, playing Painter is sweet and reason enough in itself in terms of having fun, but as far as actual deckbuilding goes I think it's worth evaluating what you gain and what you lose by trying to build, say, a more controlling version of Painter.

That said, Search for Azcanta is definitely a sweet card and I think Noctalor's list could use it to good effect.

To be fair, I came up with my list not by tuning painter but by looking for a decent control to play.
I have played miracle and had success with it, but in my opinion the deck is hella overrated atm, the lack of a decent finisher and in general the lack of real action makes it pretty poor.

I agree on ponder and brainstorm, honestly, its pointless to argue about it, if you play blue and fetches there is no reason not to play the full set of both, at any given time in a game the card you want the most is likely to be a cantrip and in general, unless you are somewhat locked having cantrips is always good.


I think i am going to play painter at the next GP, still unsure about the list, id like to give a shot to the monoU whir list, what do you guys think about it?

[drude1]

To be fair, I came up with my list not by tuning painter but by looking for a decent control to play.
I have played miracle and had success with it, but in my opinion the deck is hella overrated atm, the lack of a decent finisher and in general the lack of real action makes it pretty poor.

I agree on ponder and brainstorm, honestly, its pointless to argue about it, if you play blue and fetches there is no reason not to play the full set of both, at any given time in a game the card you want the most is likely to be a cantrip and in general, unless you are somewhat locked having cantrips is always good.


I think i am going to play painter at the next GP, still unsure about the list, id like to give a shot to the monoU whir list, what do you guys think about it?In the somewhat limited experience I've had with the whir deck, chalice is a hell of a card, but it's obviously not a brainstorm deck and it felt slower than most other painter decks to me. I would probably also play it with another color. I tried it with black for tezz and thopter/sword combo. Combo was really good but tezz wasn't great. I would probably play white.


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[jasper]

To be fair, I came up with my list not by tuning painter but by looking for a decent control to play.
I have played miracle and had success with it, but in my opinion the deck is hella overrated atm, the lack of a decent finisher and in general the lack of real action makes it pretty poor.

I agree on ponder and brainstorm, honestly, its pointless to argue about it, if you play blue and fetches there is no reason not to play the full set of both, at any given time in a game the card you want the most is likely to be a cantrip and in general, unless you are somewhat locked having cantrips is always good.


I think i am going to play painter at the next GP, still unsure about the list, id like to give a shot to the monoU whir list, what do you guys think about it?

In the somewhat limited experience I've had with the whir deck, chalice is a hell of a card, but it's obviously not a brainstorm deck and it felt slower than most other painter decks to me. I would probably also play it with another color. I tried it with black for tezz and thopter/sword combo. Combo was really good but tezz wasn't great. I would probably play white.

Yeah, that makes sense given the card choices Noctalor. I'm not sure about your statement that miracles is overrated and lacks a decent finisher. Both Monastery Mentor and Entreat the Angels are serious finishers that don't require much deck space, and Jace wins games in itself. The deck also did extremely well at GP Seattle with 8 copies in the Top 64. We don't know the conversion rate, but I imagine the deck had a good conversion rate as it doesn't have that many pilots. Anyway, perhaps that's a discussion for another thread haha.

In any case, I'd highly recommend trying the mono blue whir + chalice list. Getting to play chalice gives you a lot of game against a number of decks in the format, and in contrast to other chalice decks you have the consistency of tutors (in Whir, Transmute, Tezzeret and Trinket Mage) and pseudo-cantrips in Thirst for Knowledge. You also have strong alternate game-plans in game 1, in Jace combined with Ensnaring Bridge and Tezzeret ultimate. Plus, as a blue deck, you still get to play Force of Will.

Regarding your comment that tezz wasn't great, it's worth noting that he plays a very specific role within the deck by acting as a fifth tutor for either combo piece that can get both pieces of the combo over two turns, with the added upside of providing a way to win games that you wouldn't otherwise be able to. I was initially on four Whir, but the triple blue cost can be prohibitive.

Whir is the card that really makes the deck tick, and its cost is why I would caution against including another colour unless you have very specific reasons to. As it is, I haven't found those reasons to be compelling enough. What makes you want to play white?

@Noctalor, feel free to ask any questions you might have about the chalice build if that is the list you were talking about. I'd love to hear how you get on with it.

I played the deck I posted on page 39 (#775 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1040671&viewfull=1#post1040671)) to a 10th place finish at a reasonably-sized local tournament yesterday. I played a Lodestone Golem in place of the Llawan in the sideboard, although I think the change was fairly immaterial. I'm still trying to figure out the optimal board.

I beat Death and Taxes, Lands, Grixis Vial-Smasher (basically UR Delver with Vial-Smasher) and Moon Stompy, losing an earlier round to Turbo Depths (which is usually a good matchup) and my win-and-in to Czech Pile.

[drude1]

Yeah, that makes sense given the card choices Noctalor. I'm not sure about your statement that miracles is overrated and lacks a decent finisher. Both Monastery Mentor and Entreat the Angels are serious finishers that don't require much deck space, and Jace wins games in itself. The deck also did extremely well at GP Seattle with 8 copies in the Top 64. We don't know the conversion rate, but I imagine the deck had a good conversion rate as it doesn't have that many pilots. Anyway, perhaps that's a discussion for another thread haha.

In any case, I'd highly recommend trying the mono blue whir + chalice list. Getting to play chalice gives you a lot of game against a number of decks in the format, and in contrast to other chalice decks you have the consistency of tutors (in Whir, Transmute, Tezzeret and Trinket Mage) and pseudo-cantrips in Thirst for Knowledge. You also have strong alternate game-plans in game 1, in Jace combined with Ensnaring Bridge and Tezzeret ultimate. Plus, as a blue deck, you still get to play Force of Will.

Regarding your comment that tezz wasn't great, it's worth noting that he plays a very specific role within the deck by acting as a fifth tutor for either combo piece that can get both pieces of the combo over two turns, with the added upside of providing a way to win games that you wouldn't otherwise be able to. I was initially on four Whir, but the triple blue cost can be prohibitive.

Whir is the card that really makes the deck tick, and its cost is why I would caution against including another colour unless you have very specific reasons to. As it is, I haven't found those reasons to be compelling enough. What makes you want to play white?

@Noctalor, feel free to ask any questions you might have about the chalice build if that is the list you were talking about. I'd love to hear how you get on with it.

I played the deck I posted on page 39 (#775 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1040671&viewfull=1#post1040671)) to a 10th place finish at a reasonably-sized local tournament yesterday. I played a Lodestone Golem in place of the Llawan in the sideboard, although I think the change was fairly immaterial. I'm still trying to figure out the optimal board.

I beat Death and Taxes, Lands, Grixis Vial-Smasher (basically UR Delver with Vial-Smasher) and Moon Stompy, losing an earlier round to Turbo Depths (which is usually a good matchup) and my win-and-in to Czech Pile.When I said I thought tezz wasn't great I was actually referring to tezz, agent. I would play white to still be able to play the thopter combo along with some really strong white SB cards like canonist. Another option would be to play this as a true prison deck and play 4 blood moon which is something I think I will test some.

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[Cyanhur]

Well, firstly the deck plays like a control, the combo is absolutely secondary.

The deck is basicly a control with some really nutty plays, we have a good edge against most combo and pretty much a bye against control.
We need a really solid play to overcome delver, id suggest to try some Harvest Pyre or even Roast in order to deal with pesky anglers and goyfs, meekstone helped me a lot during that specific tournament, I was able to beat a tombstalker team america thanks to them.

In general, the deck feels pretty decent against anything playing creatures we can bolt, and struggles to beat heavy threats (still, eldrazi ramp is an absolute bye for us).
In the near future ill test thw W list, plow should help immensly.

I'm really curious about the play style. I think i will test it. Did you play it in other tornament? mtgo? paper?

When you say you will test W list, what do you mean? Patriot version?

I saw some recent video on YouTube "Legacy 1k Ur painter" is it you?

[jasper]

When I said I thought tezz wasn't great I was actually referring to tezz, agent. I would play white to still be able to play the thopter combo along with some really strong white SB cards like canonist. Another option would be to play this as a true prison deck and play 4 blood moon which is something I think I will test some.

Yeah, that actually makes sense now that I look at your previous post. Sorry! Yeah, when I played a UB version of the Chalice deck I found Tezzeret, AoB to be fairly underwhelming. You don't have space for as many artifacts as Tezzerator and the +1 can be awkward with Chalice.

I've thought about a white version. I don't think the deck actually needs a card like Canonist as the storm matchup is already good, but it could definitely benefit from having access to removal, particularly a boardwipe. Again, when I played UB I didn't particularly like having ThopterSword in the deck, it just felt like I was running more cards that don't do anything on their own. Then again, it could be useful in the fair/grindy matchups—the question is whether it's useful enough to deserve a spot when adding a colour is a serious cost in a deck trying to run a UUU card as well as sol-lands.

I think if I were to splash, I would probably splash red because pyroclasm single-handedly fixes a number of issues the deck has. The real issue is the mana-base.

I have experimented with a version with Blood Moon as well as Chalice, but again it's extremely awkward with Whir and doesn't exactly help your manabase. I'm still tinkering, though.

[Noctalor]

I'm really curious about the play style. I think i will test it. Did you play it in other tornament? mtgo? paper?

When you say you will test W list, what do you mean? Patriot version?

I saw some recent video on YouTube "Legacy 1k Ur painter" is it you?

No, not me.

The URw list looks like


// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge

// 7 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Painter's Servant
1 Vendilion Clique

// 4 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Moat
1 Porphyry Nodes

// 17 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 22 Land
1 Academy Ruins
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dack Fayden

// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Cursed Totem

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Banishing Light

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Holy Light

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict



I have tested the deck quite a bit on cockatrice and some paper magic, sadly no MTGO for me.
Still, the deck felt quite solid, is have much more tests done with the straight UR, but the URw on paper should solve most problems, losing in consistency tho.

[Cyanhur]

No, not me.

The URw list looks like


// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge

// 7 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Painter's Servant
1 Vendilion Clique

// 4 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Moat
1 Porphyry Nodes

// 17 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 22 Land
1 Academy Ruins
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dack Fayden

// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Cursed Totem

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Banishing Light

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Holy Light

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict



I have tested the deck quite a bit on cockatrice and some paper magic, sadly no MTGO for me.
Still, the deck felt quite solid, is have much more tests done with the straight UR, but the URw on paper should solve most problems, losing in consistency tho.

Really strange list! I am really curious to see this list on a tornament.

I think i will try your UR version on MTGO. Do you make any change?

[Noctalor]

Really strange list! I am really curious to see this list on a tornament.

I think i will try your UR version on MTGO. Do you make any change?

The maybelist is:

- Possibly play some combination of Harvest Pyre and Roast
- Maybe cut a slow card such as Dack Fayden for Azcanta number 2, which has proven to be hella busted
- If we truly want to improve Elves playing on the board some more cheap interaction such as Pyroclasm, staticaster was not fast enough to be impacful, and bridge is likely not going to solve anything against Elves, also, probably a copy of Grim Lavamancer would be reasonable

Thing is, we cant expect the deck to perform properly against the entire field if we go for UR, we dont have the tools to be in good shape against the entire format at once, so chosing the expected metagame is crucial, mostly because if we want to improve our chances vs big minions we are likely to have an harder time against swarm decks such as elves.

In my opinion is much easier to fix our MU against small creatures and give up on having an easy way to deal with tarmo/gurmag/eldrazi, but its also true that we are more likely to face huge threats rather than elves (taxes is already pretty decent with the old configuration, so not a big deal), we should probably play at least 2 answers to big minions, but its pretty hard to make room to 4 bolts, abrade (which is bonkers, really) and 2 more spot remuvals.
This is expecially true if we fear delver, rather than pile, against pile we often have the time to setup a painter pyro, or to just go off, but against a turn 2 tarmo having to rely on painter pyro to stay alive is surely not a good idea.

At the moment our best shot at beating big creatures.deck is to contain them and lock the game with moon, so we could also consider some bounce effect and run 3/4 moons, no test backing this, but it may work, also doubling as an answer to marit lage.

[Cyanhur]

I was thinking about marit lage match up maybe fire/ice?

For run 3/4 blood moon, we can only play it with UR version? with MD EE it's an option too maybe?

[Noctalor]

I was thinking about marit lage match up maybe fire/ice?

For run 3/4 blood moon, we can only play it with UR version? with MD EE it's an option too maybe?

W list is fine with ETutoring Moon, also Moat is godsend in any big creature MU.

Marit lage decks are not a huge deal, UR list runs bridges, turbo depths is harder to deal with because it can go off before our relevant plays are online, against lands its quite possible to stop marit lage by just using pyroblasts.

In general Lands is a quite easy MU, we have a ton of moons, Bridges, Surgical + Snapcasters and we can easily win w/o combat.


Fire//Ice is quite good in the deck (madness with Dack ulti), but it wont solve a turn 2 tarmo or a turn 3 gurmag by itself.

[Cyanhur]

Do you think we can cut 2 card in main for 2 mentors ?

[CptHaddock]

Generally speaking, combo is decent, its kinda hard for them to overcome the barrage of counters, and clique is super important because we are likely to win those games by racing with a snap/vendilion.
In your list there are a few things I know for a fact that wont work considering my tests.

1 Trinket : its too weak, really, despite it being a natural fit in the deck there is no way we can afford to tap 3 sorcery for a 2/2

2 jace : Imho jace is currently kinda weak, we have an hard time making sure the board is good enough to cast him, and the amount of reb effect is super high, also pyromancer is gives jace an hard time, i am playing 1 and considering 0, but he still is game if landed correctly, 1 copy is the correct amount imho, id rather play some other planeswalker than multiple copies of jace, dack is doing wonders for me atm

2 recruiter : same as Trinket, hella bad w/o sol lands

1 grindstone : is not enought, because we cant afford to be forced to go for academy if it gets countered/discarded, playing the second copy makes the deck work much smoother, also searching for grind w azcanta becomes much easier, that's the reason why im playing 2, even if the card is often not that good, we have enought manipolation to get rid of it, also it doubles our chances to go off naturally, which is not that bad

I can buy the 1 grindstone is too few and JTMS argument but I actually think that recruiter and trinket mage are fine.



The problem I have with more controlling lists is that I think, if playing a brew, one should have a good reason for not playing an established deck—A+B combo decks need to justify being better than Sneak and Show, control needs to justify being better than Miracles, and so on. Of course, playing Painter is sweet and reason enough in itself in terms of having fun, but as far as actual deckbuilding goes I think it's worth evaluating what you gain and what you lose by trying to build, say, a more controlling version of Painter.

That said, Search for Azcanta is definitely a sweet card and I think Noctalor's list could use it to good effect.

This seems like a very bad take. If you want to play brainstorm and ponder in your deck why aren't you just playing 1 of the 2 best decks in the format? Or if you are playing your chalice version why not just play something like Dragon Stompy or Eldrazi? The reason to play painter is that the combo is compact and both pieces alone aren't worthless whereas with something like S&T you can draw the griselbrand, emrakul or omniscience and basically just have dead cards in your hand without the other combo enabler. You also get the benefit of being preboarded against any blue deck in the format and with painters out you basically get 1 mana counterspells/vindicates.

The problem that I continually have with the "all in" blue versions of the deck is that they absolutely get destroyed by Delver since you have so many cards that actively don't do anything, and your manabase is so vulnerable to hate.

[jasper]

This seems like a very bad take. If you want to play brainstorm and ponder in your deck why aren't you just playing 1 of the 2 best decks in the format? Or if you are playing your chalice version why not just play something like Dragon Stompy or Eldrazi? The reason to play painter is that the combo is compact and both pieces alone aren't worthless whereas with something like S&T you can draw the griselbrand, emrakul or omniscience and basically just have dead cards in your hand without the other combo enabler. You also get the benefit of being preboarded against any blue deck in the format and with painters out you basically get 1 mana counterspells/vindicates.

The problem that I continually have with the "all in" blue versions of the deck is that they absolutely get destroyed by Delver since you have so many cards that actively don't do anything, and your manabase is so vulnerable to hate.

I think you've misunderstood the point I'm making. What you're doing is exactly what I suggest we should do in terms of evaluating how and why it is worth playing Painter decks. All of the things you say are good and valid reasons to play Painter rather than other decks in the format.

I just think that it's worth remembering what has historically set Painter decks apart, whether it is access to a powerful colourless combo, the ability to play Blood Moon and so on. For example, Shortcake, back in the day, was the best deck at doing what it specifically set out to do, which was (in brief) to be a combo deck with a powerful toolbox and prison elements.

My concern with these more controlling lists is that what you gain by playing the combo may not outweigh what you could gain by doing other things that have the same end result. If you're playing PainterStone as a win condition but not making use of some its defining characteristics of, for example, being artifact based and therefore powerful with sol lands, or being tutorable, or whatever it is, that (key word) may not be as good as simply playing a control deck like Miracles. Note that I'm not saying that I don't think a controlling build could be good, just trying to highlight some things to think about when building it one way or another.

[paradaxarada]

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

// 10 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage

// 3 Enchantment
3 Blood Moon

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

// 20 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Great Furnace
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest

// 3 Sorcery
3 Transmute Artifact


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Aether Spellbomb
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Pyrite Spellbomb

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Walking Ballista

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Abrade
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[drude1]

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

// 10 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage

// 3 Enchantment
3 Blood Moon

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

// 20 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Great Furnace
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest

// 3 Sorcery
3 Transmute Artifact


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Aether Spellbomb
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Pyrite Spellbomb

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Walking Ballista

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Abrade
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind SculptorThat's a list...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[structuremole]

No, not me.

The URw list looks like


// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge

// 7 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Painter's Servant
1 Vendilion Clique

// 4 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Moat
1 Porphyry Nodes

// 17 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 22 Land
1 Academy Ruins
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dack Fayden

// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Cursed Totem

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Banishing Light

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Holy Light

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict



I played this list at my local event with the following changes:

MD:

-porphyry nodes
-Dack Fayden (something you mentioned above)
-Mountian
+Arid Mesa
+Azcanta
+Snapcaster

SB:
-Cursed Totem
-Holy Light
-Banishing Light
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+Humility (it does work with painter, I checked)

The deck functioned amazingly and I went 3-0 (small crowd) beating burn, storm, and RB reanimator. The enlightened tutor package felt really good and, compared to control decks I've played in the past, I was super happy with how the combo was unobtrusive (and sometimes helpful) while stabilizing and then won basically immediately when I wanted to. So much better than old miracles, it felt almost like playing Lands (tho with very different cards). Will keep on testing this version.

[pettdan]

+Humility (it does work with painter, I checked)

You checked with the post-Ixalan rules update? I tried to find info confirming that and couldn't find it, but I don't know where exactly I should look.

[Noctalor]

I played this list at my local event with the following changes:

MD:

-porphyry nodes
-Dack Fayden (something you mentioned above)
-Mountian
+Arid Mesa
+Azcanta
+Snapcaster

SB:
-Cursed Totem
-Holy Light
-Banishing Light
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+Humility (it does work with painter, I checked)

The deck functioned amazingly and I went 3-0 (small crowd) beating burn, storm, and RB reanimator. The enlightened tutor package felt really good and, compared to control decks I've played in the past, I was super happy with how the combo was unobtrusive (and sometimes helpful) while stabilizing and then won basically immediately when I wanted to. So much better than old miracles, it felt almost like playing Lands (tho with very different cards). Will keep on testing this version.

Glad you enjoyed it, also, I like the changes you made, they look fine.
Cursed totem and holy light are mainly there for elves, lavamancer could do the trick, maybe even better.
Lastly, had no clue humility + painter was not a nonbo, if yes, damn that's good for us.

[Cyanhur]

If the rules did not change since 2-3 years, yes it's work.
Painter is a 1/1 but all permanent is blue or other colors you want.

[pettdan]

If the rules did not change since 2-3 years, yes it's work.
Painter is a 1/1 but all permanent is blue or other colors you want.

I think the rules changed with Ixalan's release, like I indicated in my previous post. Edit: the much discussed example is how with Blood Moon in play a Dark Depths will enter with zero counters. I have no idea how Painter is affected, so just wanted to check if the first comment on Humility was considering this rules update.

[Cyanhur]

I think the rules changed with Ixalan's release, like I indicated in my previous post. Edit: the much discussed example is how with Blood Moon in play a Dark Depths will enter with zero counters. I have no idea how Painter is affected, so just wanted to check if the first comment on Humility was considering this rules update.


It's only work if you play painter first then humility.

[drude1]

It's only work if you play painter first then humility.

....This. Due to layering if painter is already in play then humility does not "turn off" painter's color-change effect. However, if Humility is already in play, painter's "enters the battlefield" effect does not trigger and there is no color-change effect. Thus, humility would be risky. Same is true of overwhelming splendor. I did try a Jeskai Painter list on MTGO over the week. I must say, I do like it. However, it has a very control feel to it and it feels a lot like playing miracles, just with a different finisher. So I guess it depends on your play style as to whether those colors would be for you. Interestingly, given how controlling it is, I had a couple games where I won by milling opponent out with grindstone naturally, without a painter in play. One thing white is very good at is creature removal/containment. So it would also probably also depend on your local meta. There is more of a slow crescendo compared to other lists so in a large tournament I would worry a little about game fatigue and time.

[structuremole]

....This. Due to layering if painter is already in play then humility does not "turn off" painter's color-change effect. However, if Humility is already in play, painter's "enters the battlefield" effect does not trigger and there is no color-change effect.

Well put. However, Humility is mostly as a lock piece for fatty-based decks (SnT, Reanimator of various kinds, Eldrazi) where you don't really need to care about the combo if their dudes do nothing.

[drude1]

Well put. However, Humility is mostly as a lock piece for fatty-based decks (SnT, Reanimator of various kinds, Eldrazi) where you don't really need to care about the combo if their dudes do nothing.Well, I can get behind having humility in the SB for these matchups. However, you had then better have an alternate win condition as even 1/1s can do damage. Also, of all the decks you just listed, the only deck that would arguably be worse off if a humility was on the table vs a bridge would be reanimator, due to tidespout. SnT just scoops to bridge unless they are playing omniscience/wish, then neither matters. Eldrazi has almost no answers to either. But they can make a lot of 1/1 dorks that still do damage. I think you are better off playing another containment priest or bridge in this deck. Interestingly, porphyr nodes is a good tool in these MUs as well as it can also be dropped with SnT and takes out emrakul and griselbrand. It's also cheap enough to come down early against reanimator.

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[structuremole]

Well, I can get behind having humility in the SB for these matchups. However, you had then better have an alternate win condition as even 1/1s can do damage. Also, of all the decks you just listed, the only deck that would arguably be worse off if a humility was on the table vs a bridge would be reanimator, due to tidespout. SnT just scoops to bridge unless they are playing omniscience/wish, then neither matters. Eldrazi has almost no answers to either. But they can make a lot of 1/1 dorks that still do damage. I think you are better off playing another containment priest or bridge in this deck. Interestingly, porphyr nodes is a good tool in these MUs as well as it can also be dropped with SnT and takes out emrakul and griselbrand. It's also cheap enough to come down early against reanimator.

I'm worried that SnT has artifact removal in their 75 because they don't want to just scoop to bridge (which is the big red answer of choice). Also Griselbrand is also gg vs you if you're just relying on bridge because they'll easily leverage 14 cards to strip your hand and then blow up your bridge. Not to really put on bridge that much, but it's just a way better card for other matchups (eldrazi, etc.) than the ones we're talking about. Humility also has the upside of interfering with creature based combo decks, but I'm just diversifying my answers because of the tutor package.

Nodes I specifically cut because enough of our cards deal with TNN, the card it and Drop of Honey are generally used to beat, and just that it's non-permanent. You're not wrong about the mana efficiency, though. It's a card that can play the role of Supreme Verdict for 25% of the manacost.

[Cyanhur]

Drude1 what do you think about the new karn for grixis painter? I dont know if this planeswalker will be better in Stone painter or M Red or RW.

[drude1]

I'm worried that SnT has artifact removal in their 75 because they don't want to just scoop to bridge (which is the big red answer of choice). Also Griselbrand is also gg vs you if you're just relying on bridge because they'll easily leverage 14 cards to strip your hand and then blow up your bridge. Not to really put on bridge that much, but it's just a way better card for other matchups (eldrazi, etc.) than the ones we're talking about. Humility also has the upside of interfering with creature based combo decks, but I'm just diversifying my answers because of the tutor package.

Nodes I specifically cut because enough of our cards deal with TNN, the card it and Drop of Honey are generally used to beat, and just that it's non-permanent. You're not wrong about the mana efficiency, though. It's a card that can play the role of Supreme Verdict for 25% of the manacost.

Show and tell deals with bridge via bounce (eg. echoing truth) so it really doesn't matter if it's bridge or humility. And again, don't get me wrong. Humility is a very good card against all of the decks you mentioned. The problem is that when you say you want to deal with creature based combo decks, well WE are a creature based combo deck and you are essentially shutting off the combo. So, if you really want to play humility, you have to have a strong alt. win con in your deck (planeswalkers or maybe RiP/Leyline/Helm combo or something similar) because you won't reliably be able to count on milling them with painter/grindstone if humility is on the table.
I think nodes is a pretty good card. It's good against delver decks because they just lose a couple creatures and then they don't play anything until the nodes dies, which gives us multiple turns to set up more. It also is a 1 mana spell that deals with TNN, Leovold (without targeting it), emrakul, griselbrand and any other reanimation target. I think if you are playing white, that card deserves a consideration somewhere in the 75.

@Cyanhur - I think Karn is going to be good for a lot of painter decks, but I don't know that I would play karn over Tezz in grixis. Tezz provides card advantage, 5/5 dudes and a complete alternate win con that can ultimate the turn after it comes into play. I would look at Karn as more of a Tezzeret for non-blue decks. which is pretty darn good. I would definitely play it in shortcake or mono red painter lists. The other question is whether we should play Karn over Jace or Dack in Jeskai or U/R painter lists? Jace is more powerful in general but Karn doesn't die to pyroblast, which for some reason is gaining in popularity again. I'm personally not a huge fan of Dack so I would probably lean towards Karn in that situation. Tough call.

[Nocioni88]

Show and tell deals with bridge via bounce (eg. echoing truth) so it really doesn't matter if it's bridge or humility. And again, don't get me wrong. Humility is a very good card against all of the decks you mentioned. The problem is that when you say you want to deal with creature based combo decks, well WE are a creature based combo deck and you are essentially shutting off the combo. So, if you really want to play humility, you have to have a strong alt. win con in your deck (planeswalkers or maybe RiP/Leyline/Helm combo or something similar) because you won't reliably be able to count on milling them with painter/grindstone if humility is on the table.

I think that painter’s servant works under humility. It becomes a 1/1 but cards are still of the color chosen. I’ve read a thread many years ago on this. Someone that can confirm?


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[pettdan]

I think that painter’s servant works under humility. It becomes a 1/1 but cards are still of the color chosen. I’ve read a thread many years ago on this. Someone that can confirm?

It was discussed further up on this page, see the first two posts.

[drude1]

So, I'm still primarily playing Grixis painter. I enjoy shortcake as well but this just feels more powerful. I was really hoping for a deathrite ban, as that card is just so oppressive against so many of our strategies. What I have come to now realize, is that the best way to fight deathrite is to play deathrite. If all the grixis and 4-color delver and control decks can do it, why can't I? So I've been playing the following list for the last week or so, and it is performing extremely well...

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [DGM] Far/Away
SB: 1 [KLI] Engineered Explosives

I feel kinda dirty playing deathrite myself, but the card is just ridiculous. It is main-deck turn 2 mana acceleration, grave hate, and alternate win con (particularly behind a bridge) all wrapped up in one. It also effectively answers opponents' deathrites. It also really let's you set up effective blood moons out of the SB. Overall, it's been very good. Right now I am playing a 3/1 split with 1 opal still in, but that is likely to change.
Also of note, my creature removal package has also changed. I have 2 k.command main which answer both small creatures and troublesome artifacts, along with a daretti main and pyrokinesis, far/away, cursed scroll, e.e and a second bridge in the board. I really like fiery confluence, but it really expensive and I wanted to get away from mass sweepers a little more since I am playing deathrite myself. Gonna see how pyrokinesis plays for a while (used to love this card in old shortcake lists). Playing far/away to answer things like dark depths, TNN, etc. I thought about just playing edict but I actually like the targeted bounce effect as well, as it can sometimes even save a painter, etc.
Other SB changes may include a damping sphere for 3-sphere, although I don't know if I like damping sphere as much now. It kinda acts like a third blood moon in some MUs and is probably better than 3sphere in the elves MU and obviously in post MUs, but it doesn't slow down storm much until the turn the want to go off, and by then they have an answer. So, I may just be sticking with 3-sphere for now. I also switched back to e.e. over ratchet bomb due to it's speed, but I don't know that is for sure right either. I still am also playing 1 arcane lab just to help more with storm and other combo.

Anyway, haven't seen much activity on here lately so just thought I would liven it up a little.

[structuremole]

The pile shell for grixis painter seems like a cool idea, though I'd also look at Clashed's list (he's been playing for months now, but topped a recent legacy challenge here (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-04-30)). I don't think we need to mess around trying to squeeze in the punishing Dack engine, but I would see if Rise//Fall or Chandra, Torch would fit.

The main reason I bring the decklist up was more on the topic of removal choices and sweepers. Notably deluge works here despite the elements you pointed out that work against it. If you really don't want to kill your own creatures, maybe look into Fire Covenant as well.

Overall, good modernization, though. I've been having lots of fun and success with the UWR list above, but I'll try something like this one out next time and let you know if there's anything I found from having played it.

[drude1]

The pile shell for grixis painter seems like a cool idea, though I'd also look at Clashed's list (he's been playing for months now, but topped a recent legacy challenge here (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-04-30)). I don't think we need to mess around trying to squeeze in the punishing Dack engine, but I would see if Rise//Fall or Chandra, Torch would fit.

The main reason I bring the decklist up was more on the topic of removal choices and sweepers. Notably deluge works here despite the elements you pointed out that work against it. If you really don't want to kill your own creatures, maybe look into Fire Covenant as well.

Overall, good modernization, though. I've been having lots of fun and success with the UWR list above, but I'll try something like this one out next time and let you know if there's anything I found from having played it.Rise/fall is a very good card and I did consider it. You could consider a couple copies in the board as it is particularly good in certain matchups. It's better if you are playing Snapcaster though and I like k.command over rise/fall in the main for artifact hate. I like the instant speed as well. As for Chandra, again great card but I think tezz is just better in this deck as it only takes 1 activation to ultimate and looks at more cards. It also pitches to FoW.
I do like the idea of fire covenant and will definitely consider that. I'm a little worried about the D& T matchup. If thalia is out 4 Mana is a lot to come up with. Obviously the card disadvantage of pyrokinesis kinda sick butts it's not so bad if you are taking out 2-3 creatures.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[structuremole]

Rise/fall is a very good card and I did consider it. You could consider a couple copies in the board as it is particularly good in certain matchups. It's better if you are playing Snapcaster though and I like k.command over rise/fall in the main for artifact hate. I like the instant speed as well. As for Chandra, again great card but I think tezz is just better in this deck as it only takes 1 activation to ultimate and looks at more cards. It also pitches to FoW.
I do like the idea of fire covenant and will definitely consider that. I'm a little worried about the D& T matchup. If thalia is out 4 Mana is a lot to come up with. Obviously the card disadvantage of pyrokinesis kinda sick butts it's not so bad if you are taking out 2-3 creatures.

Sent from my SM-N950U using TapatalkYou're right that pyrokinesis can definitely make up the card disadvantage. Do you think there are enough red cards to pitch? I guess you could also name red with painter in a pinch which is funny. I might try the card out in other decks if it really works out.

I'm also wondering if welder wouldn't just appreciate dack as a part of the deck as a way to generate some value, though I guess Daretti gives artifacts to use, but having artifacts to get back when you wanna trade in artifact lands for actual cards might not be easy. Plus the artifact steal has really funny uses with welder, and Dack also pitches to force in matchups where Daretti would be super dead.

[Cyanhur]

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [DGM] Far/Away
SB: 1 [KLI] Engineered Explosives



If you do a stream with this list tell me i am really curious to see what you do.

[colo]

Hi there - it's my first time posting in a Painter-related thread (I've been playing Imperial Painter/Strawberry Shortcake before the Sensei's Divining Top ban) and I'm not entirely sure if this one's the one I'm supposed to be ending up in... but since I've head a number of encouraging results over the last few (small) tournaments I played, I decided to come out of the woods with my (to my knowledge) somewhat nonstandard approach. It's a UR Painter variant which I've chosen to call "Noughty Painter" (sic), and here's my list:


1 Apostle's Blessing
2 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
3 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Pyroblast

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lotus Petal
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Grindstone

1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trinket Mage
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant


1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island


Current SB:


1 Faerie Macabre
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Manic Vandal
1 Meekstone
1 Misdirection
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sudden Demise


Some of the card choices probably demand a bit of explanation/justification:

Vision Charm
This is a surprisingly versatile little bugger - I've used all three modes with succes so far. Mill-mode can get Goblin Welder going or stuff away known bad cards from the top if you don't have a fetch open. Phasing protects both combo pieces, enables Phyrexian Dreadnought for a surprise 2-turn-clock, and can mess with opposing equipment (esp. Batterskull). Even the 1-turn-pseudo Blood Moon effect has won me enough time against Tin Fins once to secure that particular game.

Misdirection
This might be the second-best counterspell in the game. Have you ever misdirected an Abrupt Decay towards the opponent's own Leovold, Emissary of Trest or True-Name Nemesis? I like that even more than messing with Hymn to Tourach and friends, or winning counter wars on its back. If you've never played Misdirection, you *need* to try it.

Apostle's Blessing
A very versatile protection piece that can do lots of work for as little as one mana and two life. Notice that it says both creature or artifact in both clauses of its effect, so it can protect Grindstone, or give your Painter's Servant protection from a charged-up Umezawa's Jitte.

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Really good at smashing face =) Can be tutored up via Trinket Mage and serves as an alternative, proven win condition against nasty lists with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or even Burn.



So far, the most troublesome matchups I have faced were Whatever Stompy (when having resolved a Chalice at one - but I've been very happy with Engineered Explosives I've added since then as a flexible mainboard countermeasure) and Show and Tell-based strategies where the Painter/Grindstone combo is useless. Apart from that, even though I'm rather inexperienced with the deck and the cantrip cartel in general, the list feels great, and I'd encourage you to look into some of the card choices I presented :)

[drude1]

Hi there - it's my first time posting in a Painter-related thread (I've been playing Imperial Painter/Strawberry Shortcake before the Sensei's Divining Top ban) and I'm not entirely sure if this one's the one I'm supposed to be ending up in... but since I've head a number of encouraging results over the last few (small) tournaments I played, I decided to come out of the woods with my (to my knowledge) somewhat nonstandard approach. It's a UR Painter variant which I've chosen to call "Noughty Painter" (sic), and here's my list:


1 Apostle's Blessing
2 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
3 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Pyroblast

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lotus Petal
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Grindstone

1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trinket Mage
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant


1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island


Current SB:


1 Faerie Macabre
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Manic Vandal
1 Meekstone
1 Misdirection
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sudden Demise


Some of the card choices probably demand a bit of explanation/justification:

Vision Charm
This is a surprisingly versatile little bugger - I've used all three modes with succes so far. Mill-mode can get Goblin Welder going or stuff away known bad cards from the top if you don't have a fetch open. Phasing protects both combo pieces, enables Phyrexian Dreadnought for a surprise 2-turn-clock, and can mess with opposing equipment (esp. Batterskull). Even the 1-turn-pseudo Blood Moon effect has won me enough time against Tin Fins once to secure that particular game.

Misdirection
This might be the second-best counterspell in the game. Have you ever misdirected an Abrupt Decay towards the opponent's own Leovold, Emissary of Trest or True-Name Nemesis? I like that even more than messing with Hymn to Tourach and friends, or winning counter wars on its back. If you've never played Misdirection, you *need* to try it.

Apostle's Blessing
A very versatile protection piece that can do lots of work for as little as one mana and two life. Notice that it says both creature or artifact in both clauses of its effect, so it can protect Grindstone, or give your Painter's Servant protection from a charged-up Umezawa's Jitte.

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Really good at smashing face =) Can be tutored up via Trinket Mage and serves as an alternative, proven win condition against nasty lists with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or even Burn.



So far, the most troublesome matchups I have faced were Whatever Stompy (when having resolved a Chalice at one - but I've been very happy with Engineered Explosives I've added since then as a flexible mainboard countermeasure) and Show and Tell-based strategies where the Painter/Grindstone combo is useless. Apart from that, even though I'm rather inexperienced with the deck and the cantrip cartel in general, the list feels great, and I'd encourage you to look into some of the card choices I presented :)Interesting list. Definitely can approach the game from different angles. My thoughts would be...

1. Do you really think a misdirection is better than the fourth force? I understand that it's probably am underplayed card, but force is really there for supper fast combo decks and cards like chalice. I'm not saying you are absolutely wrong but it just feels like force has more overall value.

2. Similarly, vision charm vs. stifle... This is probably more of a personal preference thing and you make a pretty good case for the charm.

3. No blood moon?!? In a 2 color deck playing sol lands this just doesn't seem right. I do see the Magus but against eldrazi stompy, 12 post decks, lands, and even 3 color tempo decks sooner amount of blood Monday in the board just seems like where you would want to be.

Anyway, list is otherwise pretty interesting. Vision charm is actually kind of an interesting card in general. And yes, if nothing else, misdirection is at least a fun card to play.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[drude1]

Also, speaking of lists, this is what I've transitioned to now:

// Lands
2 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Badlands
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [C15] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [EMN] Liliana, the Last Hope

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [DGM] Far/Away
SB: 1 [KLI] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge

This list takes advantage of switching from a combo list to more of a "Superfriends" control list. You can pull the combo completely and just take over games with utility cards and planeswalkers. Every walker has a "win the game" ultimate and taking out the combo often nullifies the opponent's post-sideboard game plan. It's been performing extremely well for me. I did also get rid of the leyline+helm combo from the board because I cut the transmutes. We'll see how that goes. The far/away's are mostly for turbo-depths, show and tell decks, reanimator, etc. Although a little clunky, they serve their purpose well. Anyway, I think I'm finally at a place with this deck that I'll start streaming it more.

[colo]

Thanks for your feedback, drude1 :)

I definitely appreciate the value of Force of Will, which is why I keep the 4th copy in the board. There are a few matchups where misdirection will do close-to-nil (Elves pre-board, for instance), but I think the upsides the card provides over FoW warrant its inclusion. Removal that "can't be countered"? Fuck that, honey badg... Misdirection doesn't care. I've also come to love the card advantage (compared to FoW) it incurs: Sure, it costs two cards to misdirect a spell, but often times, it's gonna be a (rather unexpected) 2-for-2-trade - for which my opponent paid mana twice. It's the most powerful (and in my experience so far, important) counter to have ready when the Painter-Stone game plan is about to come together.

On Stifle: It's been a while since I last played Stifle myself, but I have a feeling that it's not that strong in the current, overall metagame (with Deathrite Shaman soaking up stifled fetchlands), and probably a tad weaker in Painter still. I find myself rarely having U open during my opponent's turn to try to mana-screw them out of the game, and frankly, I don't care much about that plan any more (which is also why I don't play Blood Moon at this time, while I had at least 5 moons effects in wR Imperial). With the counter and protection package I run, I feel can push the combo through with a fair amount of inevitability, and would rather develop my own mana instead of trying to hamstring my opponent's.

My opinion on the boon/necessity of also having Blood Moon available might change during the coming weeks, probably depending on how I fare against Eldrazi in the future - I only played the matchup once so far as got butchered, but given the opp's god-hands in both games there wasn't much I could have done anyway. I think that Painter's Servant alone (nullifying Eye of Ugin's cost reduction) can pull some weight already. (Ceterum censeo Boseiju, Who Shelters All esse delendam!)

[Cyanhur]

Thanks for your feedback, drude1 :)

I definitely appreciate the value of Force of Will, which is why I keep the 4th copy in the board. There are a few matchups where misdirection will do close-to-nil (Elves pre-board, for instance), but I think the upsides the card provides over FoW warrant its inclusion. Removal that "can't be countered"? Fuck that, honey badg... Misdirection doesn't care. I've also come to love the card advantage (compared to FoW) it incurs: Sure, it costs two cards to misdirect a spell, but often times, it's gonna be a (rather unexpected) 2-for-2-trade - for which my opponent paid mana twice. It's the most powerful (and in my experience so far, important) counter to have ready when the Painter-Stone game plan is about to come together.

On Stifle: It's been a while since I last played Stifle myself, but I have a feeling that it's not that strong in the current, overall metagame (with Deathrite Shaman soaking up stifled fetchlands), and probably a tad weaker in Painter still. I find myself rarely having U open during my opponent's turn to try to mana-screw them out of the game, and frankly, I don't care much about that plan any more (which is also why I don't play Blood Moon at this time, while I had at least 5 moons effects in wR Imperial). With the counter and protection package I run, I feel can push the combo through with a fair amount of inevitability, and would rather develop my own mana instead of trying to hamstring my opponent's.

My opinion on the boon/necessity of also having Blood Moon available might change during the coming weeks, probably depending on how I fare against Eldrazi in the future - I only played the matchup once so far as got butchered, but given the opp's god-hands in both games there wasn't much I could have done anyway. I think that Painter's Servant alone (nullifying Eye of Ugin's cost reduction) can pull some weight already. (Ceterum censeo Boseiju, Who Shelters All esse delendam!)

Strange idea your list, a friend did Day 2 with UR painter at Birmingham.

Can you explain me the mecanic with 12/12 trample? Because when he come in play we have to sacrifice some creature and in painter our creature haven't got higher strengh.

[Noctalor]

Strange idea your list, a friend did Day 2 with UR painter at Birmingham.

Can you explain me the mecanic with 12/12 trample? Because when he come in play we have to sacrifice some creature and in painter our creature haven't got higher strengh.

Simply, you can stifle dreadnought's ability and get it to stick

[drude1]

Simply, you can stifle dreadnought's ability and get it to stick

Or, in Colo's list, use vision charm to "phase out" the dreadnaught in response to sac trigger, which also keeps him on the board. Stifle and vision charm are basically interchangeable for this purpose.

@colo: I certainly was not suggesting you would use stifle as mana denial. It serves multiple other functions in the format. Things to stifle: wasteland, stoneforge, griselbrand activation, miracle trigger, rec sage trigger, pernicious deed activation, etc. Having said that, I honestly think either stifle or vision charm are fine. Probably depends on your meta. As for blood moon, I really think you will find them invaluable in the current meta, especially against some of the most popular decks in the format (pile, grixis, eldrazi). There is a reason so many miracles players are currently playing Back to Basics.

I was curious about your counter package (3 FoW, 3 blast, 2 misdirection) so I added it to my deck and played it at this week's LGS tourney....hated it :eek:
There were just too many times I wished misdirection was a FoW. However, I do think a miser's copy of misdirection wouldn't be bad as a "5th FoW" as it sometimes does function as a "gotcha" card and those are always fun. Also, misdirection was decent in the tempo matchups like delver and pile where it can redirect a piece of removal. But for any of the other decks that are either combo or more permanent based, it was really bad. It may be good at a large tourney where you would expect to play against a lot of delver and pile decks. For now I am going to switch to 4 FoW, 3 blast, 1 misdirection and see how that goes.

I did recently add 2 copies of Lim-dul's Vault to my list, cutting the Search for Azcanta and a Liliana. I was really having trouble finding my combo pieces in a timely fashion despite the cantrips so I wanted more of a "tutor" effect. These have honestly been fantastic so far. I have found bridges against reanimator and show and tell decks, artifact removal against chalices, or specialized creature removal (particularly toxic deluge) when needed, not to mention the combo pieces. The card also has some interesting synergies with grindstone (on self), liliana and welder. Yes, it's a little bit of card disadvantage just like most tutors, but it's the closest thing to vampiric tutor that someone can play in a deck. And in my list vampiric tutor is a pretty good card. Feels a lot like enlightened tutor in the old painter lists except it can be for any card and you don't have to show it to your opponent. You can also play around things like predict. Definitely recommend people try it if they are in the right colors.

[pettdan]

I've been experimenting with different Painter variants for the past 14 months or so, mostly Rwb and Rbw. Planeswalker heavy Rbw seemed to work best, but losing games because you draw too many or too few lands is a bit demoralizing, and so the access to Brainstorm in combination with being inspired by your posts here I decided to try a blue based list again. I'll try to provide the rough reasoning of how I put the deck together, it was supposed to be short but quickly grows when thoughts are put into words. And it somehow all fits together so it's hard to know where to start. Btw, I'm adding this to hopefully provide something interesting back for all the nice posts I've been reading here. I'm of course very inspired by your posts and decks..

Some of the cards I like to have access to are Smuggler's Copter, Goblin Welder, Daretti and/or Kolaghan's Command, and sideboard Engineered Plague (the only reliable way I can ever come up with to have some chance vs Elves).

Why? Copter digs for the combo while also pressuring opposing planeswalkers and the opponent's life total, this duality is really valuable and puts opponents on defense. Also, the opponent can usually not interact with the Copter so you can usually land a creature to pressure their planeswalkers (with quasi-haste), and planeswalkers seem very important in the meta now, just my opinion and may be based on local meta. Goblin Welder is of course very good with Copter. I wish I had some unfair artifact to cheat into play using these two cards and the blue tutors, more on that in a second, but I don't know what would be good enough (and I don't want to spend multiple slots, some examples are Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Platinum Emperion, Inkwell Leviathan, Batterskull - maybe Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek is enough). I could see the fourth Welder being turned into a Ponder, but for now I prefer trying to overload opponent's removal, the Welder can crew Copter too which brings you closer to whatever you were looking for.

Daretti and Kolaghan's command both provide win conditions, one brings back combo elements and the other triples some key cards in your deck. More importantly, they both answer troublesome cards like Chalice, Null Rod, Jitte, Aether Vial, Deathrite and Delver. Daretti also deals with trouble makers like Gurmag Angler and Knight of the Reliquary. And both cards help create extra creatures to crew the Copters.

I also want to play some number of Baleful Strix since (you already know this) it makes Welder into a card advantage engine while also helping with both FoW count and getting bodies to crew the Copter, also protects planeswalkers and buys time vs Grixis Delver which is of course the number one deck to prepare for.

Playing Baleful Strix makes sol lands really difficult to play, so I decided to skip those. When not playing sol lands, the value of an early Grindstone is much lower, also blue has great tutors for Grindstone so I decided to replace copies no 2-4 with other tutors, one of each: Trinket Mage, Intuition, Transmute Artifact. They each have their advantages. Trinket Mage feels great because it crews copter, gets the combo piece and adds blue count for FoW. Because of Trinket Mage I also wanted one other card, at least, to get with it, and having played Esper Bomberman I've learned how valuable G1 Pithing Needle can be, so that was my choice. However I think Nihil Spellbomb would be great too, more on that in a second (nah, will have to save that for later). Intuition is great because if the opponents taps out, you can collect the entire combo with an active welder at EOT. I think it can also be useful to get 3 Copter and/or Strix for general grinding ability especially with active Welder. And Transmute lets you get Grindstone into play through Chalice and Rest in Peace or Surgical, similarly gets Bridge or Helm through RiP and Surgical. It seems good to run one of each. Intuition is probably significantly worse in g2 and 3.

I wanted to play one Misdirection because there are so many fair decks in my meta, and few unfair, even fewer t1 combo decks and vs the other combodecks pyroblast is good or great (and improves of course when Painter enters the battlefield). Hymn is very common and having a good answer (Misdirection) to that is great, similarly TNN is popular and hard to interact with. So, Misdirection not only trades 2 for 2 while protecting your combo and removing their offenses, it also stops one of Piles most troublesome card advantage cards in Hymn and is effectively a FoW in a counterwar. I think games are usually won by whoever grinds better (which probably guided many choices when putting this version together) so it makes sense to not overextend on FoW's or other card pieces with card disadvantage. So, I want a deck that can grind well but also threaten to combo. Threatening the combo forces opponents to play reactively and board into card disadvantage cards, perhaps (well, you would know better than me). Like Drude1 says, boarding into a planeswalker deck seems pretty good too, but having 1 Grindstone in the deck with 4 flexible tutors is a very low cost. ... however, I can see how Misdirection can potentially be too weak in some matchups which would force me to replace it.

The Search for Azcanta is a bit random; it works well with Welder, provides multiple turns of card filtering and offers late game card advantage which supports both the combo and control parts of the deck. I think it seemed too good to replace it with a Ponder, but I'm not sure.

Grim Lavamancer is another input from the updated Shortcake build, together with Copter+Welder, and since it deals with Deathrite and Delver while also being a good threat vs Elves and DnT etc. And since we need cheap creatures that crew Copter. Can also pressure planeswalkers and finish games. It's hard to reach a reasonable creature count without this one. Not playing sol lands make the Imperial Recruiters too slow, I think. Could perhaps play one.

Inventor's fair was chosen because it's a good middle ground of an extra land, life gainer and tutor. I could also see it being an artifact land, giving Trinket Mage an extra use and providing extra mana to the deck.

So, here is the list. I was still weighing a lot of cards carefully but from here I guess testing will have to guide my decisions. Your input of course welcome. I played it in this week's lgs legacy event, went 2-2. Both lost matches were very tight. I may add a short description at the end of this post later. In short, one game vs Sneak and Show was lost because I lacked 1 mana to active Helm and opponent topdecks into ponder, shuffle, SnT (and I have no land in hand but on top of library there is). The other game was lost to a few small creatures having drawn first red mana at 4 life and having 2 Lavamancers, 1 Kolaghan's Command and 1 Daretti in hand.

Creatures: 16 (+2 Daretti)
Artifacts: 13 (+2 Daretti)
Blue cards: 15

The 0's are some cards I've been considering.

4 Pyroblast
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Force of will
1 Misdirection
0 Lightning bolt
0 Abrade

2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
0 Liliana, the Last Hope
0 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 Brainstorm
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Transmute artifact
1 Intuition

1 Grindstone
1 Pithing needle
3 Smuggler's copter
1 Ensnaring bridge

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin welder
2 Grim lavamancer
3 Baleful strix
4 Painter's servant
1 Trinket mage
0 Snapcaster mage

19 lands:
2 Underground sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical island
4 Polluted delta
3 Scalding tarn
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Inventors' fair

sb:
1 Red elemental blast
2 Blood moon
2 Engineered plague
1 Notion thief
1 Invasive surgery
1 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the void
1 Helm of obedience
1 Sorcerous spyglass
1 Bitterblossom
1 Meekstone

I'll add a few comments about the sideboard too.

The Leylines help with the lower amount of FoW's, most decks that regularly require t0/t1 interaction are graveyard based, and those that are not well we have at least 2 FoW's. Also, vs decks that use Eldrazi a quick win can be very valuable, this I believe is true vs both Sneak and Show, Big Eldrazi and Cloudpost, and Leyline enables both Helm and Grindstone wins. I also worry a little bit about Punishing Fire and Leyline helps vs that.

Invasive Surgery is there over Flusterstorm because of Elves. I can see that the Storm matchup needs a few more cards though, not sure what to do.

Meekstone seems like not the strongest card but I think the popularity of Grixis Delver motivates it, stopping Delver, TNN and Gurmag with a single one mana card that we can tutor for seems very good. Also good vs Eldrazi and other big creature decks. I consider this quite flexible, maybe it should be an Arcane Laboratory of a Trinisphere.

Bitterblossom is another flexible slot, I like bringing in grindy cards vs grindy decks that need to respect our combo potential, it also helps vs planeswalkers and crews Copters. It's a good option vs Pile and Miracles, relevant vs anything with Marit Lage, gets under bridge, works against Null Rod and Chalice.. I've just been a big Bitterblossom fan over the last year or so and it seems to fit here, but it could be something vs Storm for example.

Notion Thief is added because it interacts well with Elves, always a tough matchup, and I think a pyroblast or two can slow down combodecks forcing them to cantrip and when they do that Notion Thief can swing the game, also stops Griselbrand from Drawing.. Maybe too slow and vulnerable, not sure. But we have many creatures that the opponent probably wants to destroy. Could be something else.

Sorry for having updated this post many times shortly after posting, I wasn't planning on writing so much..

[colo]

@drude1: Sorry to read you had a bad experience running Misdirection - I've had a satisfying 4-0 last week at my LGS again (and the card performed admirably once again), and I still stand and swear by it ;) I don't know how Painter-Stone players usually approach the game, but I tend to prioritize the combo over everything else (unless I know my opponent has Emrakul), and I find the counter configuration I run to be very supportive of that strategy. Maybe Misdirection is a worse fit for lists that put a stronger focus on alternative, more control-ish game-plans.

I've always been in love with Lim-Dul's Vault since I've seen it in a DDFT list a few years back and what an absurdly strong selection engine it can be - I'm pretty certain I'd play it too if my list were running black.

I got my first copy of Transmute Artifact last week, and I'm planning on adopting it as a one-of for testing purposes. It seems like a very versatile card to get around Chalice of the Void and Sanctum Prelate; if it's convincingly strong, it could cause me to re-evaluate Engineered Explosives (because only being able to transmute into Explosives for 0 seems weaker than potential alternatives like Ratchet Bomb).

[pettdan]

I had a reasonable run with the deck again in last week's LGS legacy event (list 2 posts above), going 2-1-1. Had much fun playing it. Copter is still great, if you didn't try it I suggest you do so.

Omnisneak 2-1
Moon Stompy 1-2
Miracles (RiP + Helm in the board) 2-1
Infect 1-1-1

The loss was tight and I did make a mistake (and lost one game to a clear mulligan but I was curious to try it out). There were many relevant modes on Kolaghan's Command in a specific situation, I should have returned a Welder to be able to put a second creature into play next turn and potentially turn the game around but instead lost by small margins.

The draw was as close to a win as it could be, he finished t5 of time on 1 life with no creatures in play and no more castable cards in the deck (due to Blood Moon) and me with Kolaghan's Command in hand (and no black mana source) and 4 creatures in play. I was feeling bad for this deck working so well vs his deck (t1 Lavamancer every game) and then played a bit too defensively, could have finished it earlier.

I made a small change: adding Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek to the maindeck. With all the tutors this is reasonably easy to put together, and the Sword is by itself hopefully a good card advantage engine when coupled with Copter but primarily Welder. And of course lots of card advantage when coupled with the Foundry. There are also plenty of 1/1's to trigger the Sword naturally. The change was driven by a feeling that Punishing Fire would do too much damage to the deck, pre-sideboarding, also that Thopter Foundry generates lots of life which is great vs aggressive decks that can be tough otherwise, and then both the defensive and offensive capabilities of a Bitterblossom-similar combo are very well suited for the meta. Also even if Foundry is easily answered, the 4 Welders make it easy to bring it back while ignoring Deathrite interaction (being an artifact).

I removed a Daretti for the Sword and a Search for Azcanta for the Foundry. Daretti replaced the Bitterblossom in the sideboard.

Edit: I'm considering if the Tezzeret is worth playing, it seems winmore to me. Keeping it for now, but it could be a Ponder or Daretti..

[drude1]

I had a reasonable run with the deck again in last week's LGS legacy event (list 2 posts above), going 2-1-1. Had much fun playing it. Copter is still great, if you didn't try it I suggest you do so.

Omnisneak 2-1
Moon Stompy 1-2
Miracles (RiP + Helm in the board) 2-1
Infect 1-1-1

The loss was tight and I did make a mistake (and lost one game to a clear mulligan but I was curious to try it out). There were many relevant modes on Kolaghan's Command in a specific situation, I should have returned a Welder to be able to put a second creature into play next turn and potentially turn the game around but instead lost by small margins.

The draw was as close to a win as it could be, he finished t5 of time on 1 life with no creatures in play and no more castable cards in the deck (due to Blood Moon) and me with Kolaghan's Command in hand (and no black mana source) and 4 creatures in play. I was feeling bad for this deck working so well vs his deck (t1 Lavamancer every game) and then played a bit too defensively, could have finished it earlier.

I made a small change: adding Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek to the maindeck. With all the tutors this is reasonably easy to put together, and the Sword is by itself hopefully a good card advantage engine when coupled with Copter but primarily Welder. And of course lots of card advantage when coupled with the Foundry. There are also plenty of 1/1's to trigger the Sword naturally. The change was driven by a feeling that Punishing Fire would do too much damage to the deck, pre-sideboarding, also that Thopter Foundry generates lots of life which is great vs aggressive decks that can be tough otherwise, and then both the defensive and offensive capabilities of a Bitterblossom-similar combo are very well suited for the meta. Also even if Foundry is easily answered, the 4 Welders make it easy to bring it back while ignoring Deathrite interaction (being an artifact).

I removed a Daretti for the Sword and a Search for Azcanta for the Foundry. Daretti replaced the Bitterblossom in the sideboard.

Edit: I'm considering if the Tezzeret is worth playing, it seems winmore to me. Keeping it for now, but it could be a Ponder or Daretti..

In your list I think Tezz is still pretty good. You are still playing a lot of artifacts, and now with the thopter/swords combo you are playing two artifact combos that Tezz can put together quickly for you. I did take Tezz out of my list quite a while ago but I've really been moving away from a lot of artifacts in my list (currently 14 total) and he would often miss. I've tried to play the thopter/swords combo on several occasions in the past and couldn't make it work but if you feel like you can reliably find the pieces it's very strong and combos extremely well with Tezz. I also took out search for azcanta and other tutors to replace with lim-dul's vault. I just prefer the vault because it tutors for anything in your deck but it is noticeable card disadvantage when you are in a top-deck to save me sort of situation.

@colo: I'm still playing the miser's copy of misdirection and it's okay. It really shines in certain MUs and is just bad in others. If you could play 5 FoW I would but this is a functional equivalent and does answer abrupt decay. I've often just used it to point swords to plowshares or other removal at a different one of my own guys though which works, but still getting 3 for 1'd. But that usually happens in response to me comboing off so it's okay:wink:

I have also been playing the deck to combo early and have been having a lot more success with that sort of game plan. It's also why I wanted to increase the consistency with the vaults.

[colo]

Glad to hear that Misdirection didn't let you down all the way!


I've been at my LGS's weekly Legacy tournament today, and finished in second place with a 3-1 record, losing to Grixis Control (1-2; he simply drew the necessary teensy bit better than I did - nevertheless it felt very good to win a game where he hit me with *four* back-to-back resolutions of Cabal Therapy, after having been Gitaxian Probed and him having a Young Pyromancer active, by intelligently managing the top card of my library :D), but then winning against Lands (2-0), BR Reanimator (2-1), and Death & Taxes (2-0). I still feel my unchanged list to be very well positioned, but the meta's top dogs (Grixis Control/Pile, and their Delver-running variants) are tough to deal with - but that's to be expected, I guess :)

I'm still pondering running Transmute Artifact or maybe Whir of Invention - has anyone of you ever tried the latter?


Thopter/Sword sounds like a very attractive plan b to have... please keep us posted how it's treating you!

[colo]

Without changes to my list, I finished 2nd after four rounds with a 3-1 record, losing the finals versus D&T 1-2, after a string of _incredibly_ unlucky draws/Brainstorms/Ponders in both post-board games. And I got bitten by Misdirection's limitations for the very first time, since I could not interact with his G3 T1 Swords to Plowshares targeting my lone Painter's Servant :cry: :laugh: I should have played it slow, but I got too greedy and was aiming for the T3 kill with Pyroblast protection from T2 on, and got punished accordingly, as I never saw a single creature again in the more than 15 cards to follow that early exchange...

I did manage to beat Manaless Dredge 2-0, Turbo Depths 2-1, and Eldrazi Stompy 2-1 before that unfortunate fuckup. The latter matchup doesn't seem that hard on second thought; the miser copy of Engineered Explosives as a flexible and tutorable mainboard solution to Chalice of the Void is really, really good. Also, Magus of the Moon (obv.) and Servant (interacting favorably with the "colorless Eldrazi"-clause of some of their stuff) are very potent threats. I've also come to appreciate Manic Vandal a lot as a SB choice.

[drude1]

Without changes to my list, I finished 2nd after four rounds with a 3-1 record, losing the finals versus D&T 1-2, after a string of _incredibly_ unlucky draws/Brainstorms/Ponders in both post-board games. And I got bitten by Misdirection's limitations for the very first time, since I could not interact with his G3 T1 Swords to Plowshares targeting my lone Painter's Servant :cry: [emoji23] I should have played it slow, but I got too greedy and was aiming for the T3 kill with Pyroblast protection from T2 on, and got punished accordingly, as I never saw a single creature again in the more than 15 cards to follow that early exchange...

I did manage to beat Manaless Dredge 2-0, Turbo Depths 2-1, and Eldrazi Stompy 2-1 before that unfortunate fuckup. The latter matchup doesn't seem that hard on second thought; the miser copy of Engineered Explosives as a flexible and tutorable mainboard solution to Chalice of the Void is really, really good. Also, Magus of the Moon (obv.) and Servant (interacting favorably with the "colorless Eldrazi"-clause of some of their stuff) are very potent threats. I've also come to appreciate Manic Vandal a lot as a SB choice.Are you still using the vision charm/dreadnaught combo? Does it ever win you games?
Was your eldrazi opponent playing artifact Mana? Because if they were that matchup is near impossible.... Unless you're opponent was also not playing a shuffling eldrazi. Sure, painter shuts eye of using down until they draw an Ugin and nuke your whole board. I hate that MU.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[colo]

Dreadnought/Vision Charm: yes, I do, and yes, it does :) Not very often (but that's probably due to the combo-win working so reliably), but I am completely convinced it's warranted, if only to guard against post-board mishaps where you end up with Painter or Grindstone having been hit by Surgical Extraction.

My Eldrazi opponent wasn't playing artifact mana, and it wasn't a Big Eldrazi list. It was the usual, Chalice-powered stompy list that I've seen most often around here, with the well-known Mimic into Thoughtknot into Smasher "curve", powered by Sol and Eldrazi lands.

[Cyanhur]

Dreadnought/Vision Charm: yes, I do, and yes, it does :) Not very often (but that's probably due to the combo-win working so reliably), but I am completely convinced it's warranted, if only to guard against post-board mishaps where you end up with Painter or Grindstone having been hit by Surgical Extraction.

My Eldrazi opponent wasn't playing artifact mana, and it wasn't a Big Eldrazi list. It was the usual, Chalice-powered stompy list that I've seen most often around here, with the well-known Mimic into Thoughtknot into Smasher "curve", powered by Sol and Eldrazi lands.

I will test your list.
Can you explain me for vision charm, when do you use the land mode? Witch match up?
If you put thopter / sword you have to change the list with black. Are you sure with your list?

[colo]

Vision Charm's potential applications are manifold, and the ways I've used it so far, in descending order of importance and power-level (in my experience):


Dreadnought combo
Protecting a combo piece from removal via phasing
Phasing out equipment to mess with combat math/buy time
Phasing out artifacts interfering with the combo (Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle)
Denying mana for a turn against an opponent (e. g. turning all Swamps into Mountains in my opponent's upkeep against BU Reanimator)
Milling away known-bad cards after Brainstorm without shuffle effects


I'm very convinced that my list, with some experience piloting it, is a force to be reckoned with. I have more than 70% match win percentage with it in more than 20 matches, in a fairly developed metagame.

I'm not sure if implementing the Thopter/Sword as an additional win-con is worth it in my list, since I already have a pretty solid backup plan - but it's a sweet and powerful combo and I'd love to have access to it. Fixing the mana for my variant to support it seems like a very ambitious endeavor, though. If you find out how to make it work, please let me know :)

[Cyanhur]

Vision Charm's potential applications are manifold, and the ways I've used it so far, in descending order of importance and power-level (in my experience):


Dreadnought combo
Protecting a combo piece from removal via phasing
Phasing out equipment to mess with combat math/buy time
Phasing out artifacts interfering with the combo (Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle)
Denying mana for a turn against an opponent (e. g. turning all Swamps into Mountains in my opponent's upkeep against BU Reanimator)
Milling away known-bad cards after Brainstorm without shuffle effects


I'm very convinced that my list, with some experience piloting it, is a force to be reckoned with. I have more than 70% match win percentage with it in more than 20 matches, in a fairly developed metagame.

I'm not sure if implementing the Thopter/Sword as an additional win-con is worth it in my list, since I already have a pretty solid backup plan - but it's a sweet and powerful combo and I'd love to have access to it. Fixing the mana for my variant to support it seems like a very ambitious endeavor, though. If you find out how to make it work, please let me know :)

Really thank for your expérience i love the idea to play some strange card. I will test on mtgo

[frustanani]

I am using a completely different build, Mono Blue
It is more of a control deck with Painter kill than a pure combo list
I find Whir of Invention very powerful and I like having a control or aggro plan, while I set an istant kill combo.

8 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Wasteland

4 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

3 Vendilion Clique
2 Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Hydroblast

2 Trinket Mage
3 Whir of Invention

1 Spellskite
1 Walking Ballista
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Sidaboard:

SB1: Blue Elemental Blast
SB2: Flusterstorm
SB4: Spell Pierce
SB3: Chalice of The Void
SB5: Relic of Progenitus
SB6: Surgical Extraction
SB7: Faerie Macabre
SB8: Tormod's Crypt
SB9: Ensnaring Bridge
SB10: Venser, Shaper Savant
SB11: Back to Basics


Other possible cards for the side

0/1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
0/1 Sower of Temptation
0/1 Energy Field
0/1 Masticore
0/1 Batterskull
0/1 Vedalken Shackles
0/1 Wipe Away
0/1 Tezzeret the Seeker
0/1 Crucible of Worlds
0/1 Thopter Spy Network
0/1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
0/1 Gifts Ungiven
0/1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
0/1 Lodestone Golem

What do you think ?
Any comment or suggestion is apreciated

[colo]

Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp is an interesting choice and seems hard to get rid of for anything that doesn't play white. I like it :) How did it treat you so far? Don't you think you should play more sol lands to power it out earlier?

Do you really need Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives (in a mono-U list) and Ratchet Bomb in your deck? To me, that seems kinda excessive.

Without having ever tried it, I can't help but think that a mono-U version loses a fair bit of power due to the missing Pyroblasts. What colour do you usually name with Servant? Red? Isthat why you run the Hydroblasts?

[frustanani]

Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp is an interesting choice and seems hard to get rid of for anything that doesn't play white. I like it :) How did it treat you so far? Don't you think you should play more sol lands to power it out earlier?

Do you really need Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives (in a mono-U list) and Ratchet Bomb in your deck? To me, that seems kinda excessive.

Without having ever tried it, I can't help but think that a mono-U version loses a fair bit of power due to the missing Pyroblasts. What colour do you usually name with Servant? Red? Isthat why you run the Hydroblasts?

Actually on turn 3 I usually prefere to play a Whir or a Vendilion (instead of Djinn) which need 2 or 3 blue mana. I actually started playing 5 sol lands (3 tomb and 2 city) but then I started cutting them down to 2/3 (sometimes the wasteland is a third sol land) when I realized that I was starting to search for Seat of the Synod with trinket mage too often. I could cut the wasteland for one more Ancient Tomb. I found that 16 is the correct number of blue mana sources.

But yes, Djinn is very strong. He is difficult to kill and he can make you win in 3 turn without using the combo.
(opponents allways try to surgical extraction one of the 2 artifacts)
Against Swords to Plowshares decks (Miracle and Blade Control) I use Djinn and Vendilion to attract swords to plowshares to them, making the future painter more safe.

E.E., Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb are quite important against those decks which have a fast race (Delvers) or mana ramp (Shaman decks, Elfs and Vial).
They take easily away Chalice of the Voids. They are ment to kill the cc1 creatures. If I find the need to kill higher cc spells, I would play something else.

I name RED for 2 reasons:
1) I play hydroblasts maindeck
2) I have a lot of blue (27/28 cards I think). I don't have problems in having a pitch for force of will or misdirection.
I don't want to risk to give my opponent a "free pitch" (such as a land) to exile with their Force of Will.

Actually I am allways not sure if I prefere Ponder or Preordain.

[merfolkotpt]

Played a new list yesterday at a 40ish person tournament, had to drop after round 5 for family stuff, but went 3-2 and was pretty happy with the list.

//Combo
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt

//Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Goblin Welder
3 Pyroblast

//Draw and Tutor
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Karn, Scion of Urza

//Back Up Plans
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge

//Mana
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Trinisphere


Matches
Rd 1 win 2-0 vs Manaless dredge
Rd 2 win 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
Rd 3 loss 1-2 vs Turbo Depths
Rd 4 win 2-1 vs Gb cards? (weird value-y midrange list)
Rd 5 loss 1-2 vs Food Chain Combo

It was a tournament for top 10 to get the 10 duals, so i was still live at that point (even to top 8 on a small shot) but I had to go help out the wife with stuff, so I left. Overall the list was super solid. Karn was great in fair matchups and easy to side out for more combo protection and counters in fast matchups. I felt like the turbo depths matchup i got a little unlucky, in game 3 i was set up to definitely beat 1 abrupt decay and was just searching for Painter's Servant, and ended up losing to him finding double decay before i found single painter's servant. Also never found any of my sideboard blood moons against him to make him need more cards to beat me. I liked the direction of the list, and I was real happy with tezzeret as second tutor after transmute artifact.

Deck felt good, and my lack of playing the deck much in the past couple years, definitely hurt me in a couple losses, but overall, the format and tournament was fun, and this feels like a cool direction to take the deck. Sidenote, ensnaring bridge was FANTASTIC all day.

[colo]

So, any new war stories from anyone? I'm sick at home for the last two weeks, so naurally, did not play a single game in the meantime :/

I would appreciate more anecdotes/data on how Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp and Lim-Dul's Vault have been working out for you. Have you ever considered trying out Supreme Will? Or do you think that Izzet Charm is "strictly" better?

Also, a more theoretical question: If you were to splash white, going for URw - what would be your go-to cards in these colours (with a focus on W, of course)?

[CptHaddock]

Also, a more theoretical question: If you were to splash white, going for URw - what would be your go-to cards in these colours (with a focus on W, of course)?

Enlightened Tutor, Swords to Plowshares and Hatebears be my guess. If you're going down the enlightened tutor path it opens you up to a couple silver bullet targets as well e.g. rip, moat, humility, ensnaring bridge, etc.

[drude1]

Enlightened Tutor, Swords to Plowshares and Hatebears be my guess. If you're going down the enlightened tutor path it opens you up to a couple silver bullet targets as well e.g. rip, moat, humility, ensnaring bridge, etc....this. honestly, if deathrite gets axed in the next ban I would consider swinging to white. The combo hate is so much better in white. I actually just added blood moon main to my list. It just felt like my bad matchups were all decks where I wanted blood moon. The combo is otherwise so fragile.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[structuremole]

White it is, then!

[Cyanhur]

Anyone have recent UR list? or Patriot list?
With the new metagame i think sword is fine + one hate grave main deck.

Witch painter list is better : with snap and clique or full combo just with welder and intuition ?

Because now we will have many reanimator, dredge, chalice deck, miracle and Uwx stoneforge deck.

[colo]

Oh boy, I really got my ass handed to myself today 8) Unchanged list (minor revision of the sideboard, but none of it mattered terribly today - I did like Relic of Progenitus though, which I have available in the updated list now) compared to my last tournaments, but I lost to UR Delver, RUG Delver, RUG Delver and Miracles 0-2 each. Sure there was an absence of luck on my side involved at times, but today, everyone seemed to have all the right answers, all the time. Counterbalance still is a bitch of a card; Top or no Top. In theory, I don't think my build will lose much from the impending meta changes due to Probe and Deathrite both having gotten the axe, but we'll have to wait and see how things pan out.

RUG, between all its tempo plays, Stifle, a fast clock, and their very effective removal feels like a rough matchup, and I don't think I have a coherent plan on how to handle that deck yet. Its threats are diverse enough that Sudden Demise cannot reliably clear the board on their side. If anyone's got advice how to put pressure on them, let me know.

I've been thinking about running Counterbalance myself, actually. Most of the format's removal is going to be CMC1 now, and if you can hose your opponents' buildup/filtering, that's nothing to scoff at. If only it didn't feel so dirty running that card... :>

[compacta_d]

I may swing back to mono U with the recent bannings. Czech pile on a down tick means a while before the Hymn+FOW+abrupt Decay decks wreck me.

Also considering splashing White. as said before the hate cards are there. mainly canonist to me though. and Swords to Plowshares.

Also building a thoptersword combo list minus the painter combo. Awesome part is thopters tap for mana for Whir. So something big like Wurmcoil/Gearhulk may work well there.

[Cyanhur]

I may swing back to mono U with the recent bannings. Czech pile on a down tick means a while before the Hymn+FOW+abrupt Decay decks wreck me.

Also considering splashing White. as said before the hate cards are there. mainly canonist to me though. and Swords to Plowshares.

Also building a thoptersword combo list minus the painter combo. Awesome part is thopters tap for mana for Whir. So something big like Wurmcoil/Gearhulk may work well there.

You right mono blue version with 2-3 relic it's fine with this metagame.
I am really curious about your idea with UW painter. Tell me if you thought about a list.

[compacta_d]

You right mono blue version with 2-3 relic it's fine with this metagame.
I am really curious about your idea with UW painter. Tell me if you thought about a list.

I can prob whip it up quick

4 grindstones
4 painters
4 whirs
4 brainstorms
4 ponders/preordain whichever
1 spellskite
1 ensnaring bridge
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Crucible of worlds
2 Counterspell
1 Tezzeret, Seeker. or the new one. I'd try that
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
4 FOW
1 Flusterstorm
1 spell pierce

4 flooded strands
2 other blue fetches
1 seat
1 ancient den
1 karakas
1 wasteland
1 GQ
1 Plains
1 Ancient tomb
1 Tundra
4 Islands
1 Academy Ruins

Sb is typical UW stuff I think. RIP prob good. Surgicals.


I'd start here and move on from there. Tweaking as needed. I want to try out thopter because it opens up so much more space.

- painter combo + 2 thopter foundrys +1 sword

5 open spots for other things.

[CptHaddock]

Why are there so many random 1 offs in your list? What lands do you even care about with painter? Why is the mana so awful?

If you want to go down the UW route, it might be better to take an existing rip/helm list and figure out what it would take to convert that into a painter list. Although at first glance I assume that painter just adds a clunkier combo to the list. I don't know why you wouldn't just URw, if the format returns to fair blue control/midrange decks than you probably want blast type effects.

[Cyanhur]

Drude1 What is your last update for you grixis painter list?
I think the list is really fine now no?

Did you play it on mtgo?
Do you think this list is fine?

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder

4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard :

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[drude1]

Drude1 What is your last update for you grixis painter list?
I think the list is really fine now no?

Did you play it on mtgo?
Do you think this list is fine?

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder

4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard :

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Yeah, I'm not sure yet. I've been playing on MTGO with other decks just to get a sense of what the new META will look like. What's funny is that I was finally at a really good place with my list pre-ban and had just won my LGS event, but that list was playing DRS. The list I currently have is similar to yours, with more bridges main. I also play 4 ponder main and don't play so many "tutor" effects. I am hesitant to post a list yet though because it's in flux until I get a better sense of what is popular. So far I have been seeing a lot of RUG delver, and if it stays that way I am likely to play some number of low-cost creature removal main as well. I think bridge is really strong right now though and I personally am on 3 main.

[Cyanhur]

Yeah, I'm not sure yet. I've been playing on MTGO with other decks just to get a sense of what the new META will look like. What's funny is that I was finally at a really good place with my list pre-ban and had just won my LGS event, but that list was playing DRS. The list I currently have is similar to yours, with more bridges main. I also play 4 ponder main and don't play so many "tutor" effects. I am hesitant to post a list yet though because it's in flux until I get a better sense of what is popular. So far I have been seeing a lot of RUG delver, and if it stays that way I am likely to play some number of low-cost creature removal main as well. I think bridge is really strong right now though and I personally am on 3 main.

Okok tell me when you will valid a list.
I will tell you if i will do some change.
I am testing on MTGO.

Yesterday i won 70% of the match up. I played vs Goblin, DNT, grixis control, affinity...

[drude1]

So this is where I think I'm at with grixis painter right now (see list below). This is pretty speculative though, as I keep going back and forth between how I feel about blood moon main. I think I am going to try running it main for a couple weeks and see how much of an impact it has. People certainly see it coming in games 2 and 3 and fetch their basics right away. But that means that just the threat of blood moon makes them fetch up non-optimal lands and that benefits us. I have sometimes been cutting them down or out after game 1 (unless it eldrazi, depths, etc). I do really think ensnaring bridge is insanely underrated right now. Griselbrand decks have really surged (particularly sneak and show) and the card is quite good against RUG delver as well as long as you can get to 3 mana. I have had the best luck with this deck since going up in copies of this card. The sideboard is still in flux, particularly the 1 of counterspells. I would like to see a permanent based card against combo in one of these slots but just not sure which one yet. I also went back to leyline/helm in the board as I don't think a couple of surgicals are good enough anymore without deathrite main. Anyway, here is the list I have been running lately.

3 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Goblin Welder
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
3 Blood Moon
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Great Furnace
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain


SB:
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Arcane Laboratory
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pyrokinesis
1 To the Slaughter
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge

I've also been playing some U/R painter but don't like that as much. I have not played any whir/mono blue versions for a while but also think that is a very reasonable choice. I just don't think it is as synergistic as the U/R or grixis versions.

[merfolkotpt]

I don't know if it i just me, but DnT has been a horrible matchup for my UR version with Karn and Tezz the seeker. I haven't totally updated the sideboard yet in response to the bannings, so i may be able to dedicate an additional slot. Obviously the matchup depends on how aware the DnT player is about what matters in the matchup, but boy it is not something I like to see.

[felipe_tardoqui]

I'm playing with the list below. I am currently 13-1, but only games before the ban.
Change I think of doing, is to replace 1 Imperial Recruiter for something, I'm not sure what yet, depends on the course of the meta game.

1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Seat of the Synod

3 Goblin Welder
3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Pyroblast

2 Search for Azcanta

1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle

[jasper]

Some nice, grindier lists being posted. To those of you on builds with fewer sol lands (@drude1, @felipe_tardoqui), what would you estimate your average combo turn to be? How well does the interaction you have in form of cards like KCommand and Bolt enable you to stay alive? Do you win more games off the back of the combo or just outgrinding opponents with planeswalkers?

In both of your lists, there are a lot of one-ofs of cards that aren't tutorable, like planeswalkers and sideboard cards. Although I understand the value of having access to a diverse range of threats and answers, I wonder to what extent consistency is impacted. @felipe_tardoqui, only running 2 Ponder seems strange to me—what's the rationale behind that?

I agree that Bridge is a great card right now, although 3 seems excessive to me. I am running 2 in mono-blue. Of course, you have Brainstorm to get rid of redundant copies, but nevertheless.


I don't know if it i just me, but DnT has been a horrible matchup for my UR version with Karn and Tezz the seeker. I haven't totally updated the sideboard yet in response to the bannings, so i may be able to dedicate an additional slot. Obviously the matchup depends on how aware the DnT player is about what matters in the matchup, but boy it is not something I like to see.

As far as beating DnT, Walking Ballista is fantastic against them, particularly if you can tutor it (Trinket Mage) and recur it (Academy Ruins). I am currently testing one in the maindeck, with an additional copy in the board. Of course, it's better with sol lands. If you're running red, Pyroclasm also does great work—just don't get too greedy with it when playing. Getting yourself a 2- or 3-for-one should be plenty to swing the match in your favour.

Although arguably a very different style of deck (not sure it even belongs in this thread), my build of mono-blue (with Chalice) has performed well for me since the ban. I went 4-1 online the other day, losing only to RUG, and 4-0 locally yesterday. Online, I beat Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles and Grixis Delver; in person I beat Sneak and Show, Nic Fit, Dredge and Grixis Control. Thanks to Chalice, you can be extremely pro-active in many match-ups, which great in a fresh, uncertain meta. Additionally, the mana-base is much more stable with a whopping 13 basic islands.

[drude1]

Some nice, grindier lists being posted. To those of you on builds with fewer sol lands (@drude1, @felipe_tardoqui), what would you estimate your average combo turn to be? How well does the interaction you have in form of cards like KCommand and Bolt enable you to stay alive? Do you win more games off the back of the combo or just outgrinding opponents with planeswalkers?

In both of your lists, there are a lot of one-ofs of cards that aren't tutorable, like planeswalkers and sideboard cards. Although I understand the value of having access to a diverse range of threats and answers, I wonder to what extent consistency is impacted. @felipe_tardoqui, only running 2 Ponder seems strange to me—what's the rationale behind that?

I agree that Bridge is a great card right now, although 3 seems excessive to me. I am running 2 in mono-blue. Of course, you have Brainstorm to get rid of redundant copies, but nevertheless.



As far as beating DnT, Walking Ballista is fantastic against them, particularly if you can tutor it (Trinket Mage) and recur it (Academy Ruins). I am currently testing one in the maindeck, with an additional copy in the board. Of course, it's better with sol lands. If you're running red, Pyroclasm also does great work—just don't get too greedy with it when playing. Getting yourself a 2- or 3-for-one should be plenty to swing the match in your favour.

Although arguably a very different style of deck (not sure it even belongs in this thread), my build of mono-blue (with Chalice) has performed well for me since the ban. I went 4-1 online the other day, losing only to RUG, and 4-0 locally yesterday. Online, I beat Elves, Sneak and Show, Miracles and Grixis Delver; in person I beat Sneak and Show, Nic Fit, Dredge and Grixis Control. Thanks to Chalice, you can be extremely pro-active in many match-ups, which great in a fresh, uncertain meta. Additionally, the mana-base is much more stable with a whopping 13 basic islands.

First, to answer your questions, I can combo as early as turn 3, and it isn't that terribly hard to do. I am usually setting up the combo in my hand with protection pieces and then going off on one turn. Or I will frequently play the grindstone early (turn 1) to turn on my opals but hold the painter for the pivotal turn. It definitely is grindier than other versions of the deck. As for the one-ofs, having 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm in your deck let you find those without too much problem. However, it is why I also play 3 copies of bridge in the main. I think the current meta is going to be a lot more sneak and show, RUG delver, reanimator and eldrazi. Bridge is by far the single best card we have against 3/4 of those decks and I really want to get one into my hand by turn 3-4 for the show and tell. It also needs to be dropped early against eldrazi or they kill you before you find it. Unless you have a lot of other ways to deal with fat creatures turning sideways against you, bridge is probably the best thing out there. I've also been seeing a good amount of death and taxes online but for some reason I have not really had a problem with that deck. I think the advantage of playing full 4-ofs of our combo is that you are going to be faster assembling your combo and can just win before they find too many hate bears. I do like the idea of ballista in a deck that can tutor for it. Unfortunately I am not playing recruiters or trinket mage so I don't think it is a great option for me. Pyroclasm is pretty good, but because of Mother of Runes, I would play more kozilek's return, marsh casualties or Toxic Deluge.
Jasper, I assume you are playing a whir version? in that list I do think 2 bridge is enough because you have 4 tutors to find it. The only problem again would maybe be the sneak and show MU where they have an emrakul in play on turn 2-3 and you haven't been able to set up for the bridge. I do think that the whir version of the deck could be good right now. I'm actually a little surprised that you lost to RUG given that you are playing so many islands. Chalice seems really good. Of course, anyone not playing brainstorm is slave to the top of their deck, and increased variance is the boogy man in this game. I do really like the instant speed find-my-combo and win out of nowhere aspect of whir versions though. Plus, Llawan and vedalken shackles are sweet pet cards of mine that I really enjoiyed playing when I was on that deck.

@felipe_tardoqui: VERY grindy list. Looks more like a control deck with a couple painters and grindstones splashed in. But hey, whatever works. I think everyone has their own play style.

Also, I was completely wrong about Blood Moon main....terrible. Not that I think blood moon is a bad card, but if you are going to play it main you need to be able to have a decent chance at dropping it turn 1. Finding one and dropping it on turn 6 or 7 is just awful. So they have been relegated back to the sideboard in my list and I have added a jace, nihil spellbomb and k.command in their place. I also did swap out the lim-dul's vault for a transmute artifact now since my deck is so much more artifact based. I also took the leyline/helm combo out of the SB but would put it back in if I was expecting a meta full of sneak & show, reanimator, dredge. The deck is playing really well lately and I am easily at 75-80% win percentage so far. However, I have not actually played a lot of RUG delver on line recently so I'm not sure how that MU fares so far.

[jasper]

First, to answer your questions, I can combo as early as turn 3, and it isn't that terribly hard to do. I am usually setting up the combo in my hand with protection pieces and then going off on one turn. Or I will frequently play the grindstone early (turn 1) to turn on my opals but hold the painter for the pivotal turn. It definitely is grindier than other versions of the deck. As for the one-ofs, having 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm in your deck let you find those without too much problem. However, it is why I also play 3 copies of bridge in the main. I think the current meta is going to be a lot more sneak and show, RUG delver, reanimator and eldrazi. Bridge is by far the single best card we have against 3/4 of those decks and I really want to get one into my hand by turn 3-4 for the show and tell. It also needs to be dropped early against eldrazi or they kill you before you find it. Unless you have a lot of other ways to deal with fat creatures turning sideways against you, bridge is probably the best thing out there. I've also been seeing a good amount of death and taxes online but for some reason I have not really had a problem with that deck. I think the advantage of playing full 4-ofs of our combo is that you are going to be faster assembling your combo and can just win before they find too many hate bears. I do like the idea of ballista in a deck that can tutor for it. Unfortunately I am not playing recruiters or trinket mage so I don't think it is a great option for me. Pyroclasm is pretty good, but because of Mother of Runes, I would play more kozilek's return, marsh casualties or Toxic Deluge.
Jasper, I assume you are playing a whir version? in that list I do think 2 bridge is enough because you have 4 tutors to find it. The only problem again would maybe be the sneak and show MU where they have an emrakul in play on turn 2-3 and you haven't been able to set up for the bridge. I do think that the whir version of the deck could be good right now. I'm actually a little surprised that you lost to RUG given that you are playing so many islands. Chalice seems really good. Of course, anyone not playing brainstorm is slave to the top of their deck, and increased variance is the boogy man in this game. I do really like the instant speed find-my-combo and win out of nowhere aspect of whir versions though. Plus, Llawan and vedalken shackles are sweet pet cards of mine that I really enjoiyed playing when I was on that deck.

@felipe_tardoqui: VERY grindy list. Looks more like a control deck with a couple painters and grindstones splashed in. But hey, whatever works. I think everyone has their own play style.

Also, I was completely wrong about Blood Moon main....terrible. Not that I think blood moon is a bad card, but if you are going to play it main you need to be able to have a decent chance at dropping it turn 1. Finding one and dropping it on turn 6 or 7 is just awful. So they have been relegated back to the sideboard in my list and I have added a jace, nihil spellbomb and k.command in their place. I also did swap out the lim-dul's vault for a transmute artifact now since my deck is so much more artifact based. I also took the leyline/helm combo out of the SB but would put it back in if I was expecting a meta full of sneak & show, reanimator, dredge. The deck is playing really well lately and I am easily at 75-80% win percentage so far. However, I have not actually played a lot of RUG delver on line recently so I'm not sure how that MU fares so far.

How do you combo on turn 3 if you're holding the Painter in hand until you can go off? I don't see how you're hitting 5 mana to play and activate in the same turn. Or is that a separate point?

To play devil's advocate slightly, every painter deck can combo on turn three—turn 1 stone, turn 2 painter, turn 3 activate. Of course, having cantrips means you can find the combo more consistently, but mana looks still to be a bottleneck as your only additional mana sources are Mox Opals—that's why I was referring to your list as a more grindy one (although not as grindy as felipe_tardoqui's, as you point out). Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad list! Just that by virtue of the cantrips and lack of fast-mana it looks like you're more set up to try and get a protected combo from around turn 4-5. Definitely a viable strategy, and I think one that is improved now that Welder is better again.

The reason I suggested Pyroclasm over other options is for mana efficiency against cards like Port, Wasteland and Thalia. I think you might struggle to support the BB cost of Marsh Casualties. Yes, Kozilek's Return and Toxic Deluge are better against mom, but that doesn't matter as much if you're struggling to cast them. That said, once again I think they're better in your build than, say, Imperial Painter because you're more set up to grind and have blockers in form of Baleful Strix. I think Toxic Deluge is likely the best catch-all option.

How does your deck fare against mana denial in general? It seems like Wasteland and Port would be tough with only 19 lands. This was always my problem with grixis in the past—the tension between artifact lands and being three colour.

Yes, I'm on a Whir+Chalice mono-blue build still. And you're right, the RUG match-up is good—I think that result was anomalous based on other matches I've played. Chalice and Bridge are both very difficult for them to beat if you can resolve them, and they don't really have enough counterspells to cope with both of those plus the combo. And 13 basic islands/no fetches mean that the mana denial plan is hard for them to execute.

What sort of opposition + matchups has your 75-80% winrate come against? Are you playing on mtgo?

[Ratrek]

Greetings,

Just wanted to pop in a say hi and thanks to all who participate in this thread. Though I'm a Storm player at heart, Painter-Stone has been my pet deck forever and I'm really happy that there are other's out there who play the deck.

Currently I'm rolling Mono blue but I'll occasionally rollout UW as well and UR for more casual games.

Cheers!

[drude1]

How do you combo on turn 3 if you're holding the Painter in hand until you can go off? I don't see how you're hitting 5 mana to play and activate in the same turn. Or is that a separate point?

To play devil's advocate slightly, every painter deck can combo on turn three—turn 1 stone, turn 2 painter, turn 3 activate. Of course, having cantrips means you can find the combo more consistently, but mana looks still to be a bottleneck as your only additional mana sources are Mox Opals—that's why I was referring to your list as a more grindy one (although not as grindy as felipe_tardoqui's, as you point out). Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a bad list! Just that by virtue of the cantrips and lack of fast-mana it looks like you're more set up to try and get a protected combo from around turn 4-5. Definitely a viable strategy, and I think one that is improved now that Welder is better again.

The reason I suggested Pyroclasm over other options is for mana efficiency against cards like Port, Wasteland and Thalia. I think you might struggle to support the BB cost of Marsh Casualties. Yes, Kozilek's Return and Toxic Deluge are better against mom, but that doesn't matter as much if you're struggling to cast them. That said, once again I think they're better in your build than, say, Imperial Painter because you're more set up to grind and have blockers in form of Baleful Strix. I think Toxic Deluge is likely the best catch-all option.

How does your deck fare against mana denial in general? It seems like Wasteland and Port would be tough with only 19 lands. This was always my problem with grixis in the past—the tension between artifact lands and being three colour.

Yes, I'm on a Whir+Chalice mono-blue build still. And you're right, the RUG match-up is good—I think that result was anomalous based on other matches I've played. Chalice and Bridge are both very difficult for them to beat if you can resolve them, and they don't really have enough counterspells to cope with both of those plus the combo. And 13 basic islands/no fetches mean that the mana denial plan is hard for them to execute.

What sort of opposition + matchups has your 75-80% winrate come against? Are you playing on mtgo?

@jasper: yeah, I'm talking about just running out the combo on turns. However, the opals allow me to cantrip to find protection (blasts/FoW).I will typically only run out painter on turn 2 if I have a force or blast backup or if I'm racing something like storm. I did update my list to run 2 copies of ancient tomb as I added a couple smuggler's copters to my list as well. Agreed that in general I am now grindy than a mono red list.
I haven't really had a ton of trouble against the Mana denial plans although again I haven't played a ton against RUG delver. I have not had much trouble with D&T though. I just make sure to fetch basics when possible and although the artifact lands can get wasted, I can also recure them with welder. And yes, I've mostly been playing this list online since the ban (MTGO). I was performing extremely well with the deck locally before the ban but that was with DRT vs. opals and obviously the metal has changed. I've been seeing a good amount of combo online (storm, show and tell, turbo depths) as well as some tempo variations.
Again, I certainly think mono blue whir versions can be good as well. I played it for a couple months before the ban and enjoyed it. Just felt a little "stifled" by the lack of answers. Show and tell seems horrid and unless I had a turn one chalice, other combo was also really bad. I also just really love playing with red blasts in legacy.


@Ratrek: greetings!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[structuremole]

Hey guys, here's a link to a painter discord (since there wasn't one): https://discord.gg/3u8Ye9f

It tries to capture all the major archetypes separated by whether they're more stompy focused or combo/synergy focused and generally seems a good place to aggregate discussions and get feedback.

[tired_papasmurf]

Went 5-3 at the SCG Legacy Classic today with UWR Painter Stoneblade. I felt the deck ran great. List (61 maindeck since I couldn't decide whether to cut the Clique or not):

4 Painter's Servant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Verdict

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Grindstone

1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mariki-Gusari
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Pyroblast

Matchups:
Lands (2-1):
G1 lost turn 1 when Opponent on the play played Manabond + 6 lands. Won with anemic beats G2, won thanks to Combo G3. I never drew Blood Moon after side.
MUD (1-2):
Trinisphere followed up with Metalworker and I didn't have the swords. Won G2 when he had a slow hand and I had removal followed by Batterskull + True-Name.
Goblins (2-0):
G1 was Clean T1 Stone + T2 Painter + T3 activate, g2 was swords + SnapSwords + combo out
Infect (2-1):
Usual game of kill all infect creatures. Won the first game due to a topdecked Jitte. Made me happy to have Snappy in the deck.
4c Loam(1-2):
Opponent milled only non-lands with his Loam's, but he got there with mana denial followed up with planeswalkers or a Knight.
MonoRed Prison(2-1):
G1 she played Ensnaring Bridge and I went and comboed out. I punted G2 when I forced a creature when I had an active Jitte, letting her Confluence 3 artifacts. Batterskull let me win through a Chandra emblem G3.
Lands(1-2):
I won G1 thanks to combo, G2+G3 was locking me out of mana and Marit (G2 keep was super loose on just Volc relying on Ponder to get me there). Never drew Blood Moon with mana to cast.
Eldrazi(2-1):
G1 opponent on the play had Chalice on 1 and I had a hand of 1 drops, proceeded to get stomped. G2 and G3 were normal Painter combo. Stoneforge did an excellent job eating Warping Wails.


Losses were where my opponent was able to cut off mana early and follow with a quick kill before I could come back (Lands,Aggro Loam,MUD). Most games I dropped were due to horrible misplays, but I felt the deck ran great otherwise. Being able to transition from a Stoneforge aggro start to a Painter Combo kill after the opponent's wasted resources dealing with Stoneforge is usually pretty smooth. The fact that Painter carries Jitte mean the two packages synergize pretty well, I think. With Stoneforge and Batterskull/Jitte I was a lot less scared of the MonoRed deck with its Rabblemasters and Scab-Clan Berserkers than I would have been with other Painter versions.

Mana denial was pretty brutal for the Lands/Loam decks when they had Ports active and I couldn't cantrip. Not sure if I was unlucky, misplayed (probably kept bad hands?), or if I need more than 20 lands in the deck. I think 20 is the right amount right now, since I only situationally want more than 5 lands ever (to combo with Painter in 1 turn). I did win the Round 1 Lands match thanks to having 6 basics for his Ghost Quarters.

My sideboard was ready for Death and Taxes, maybe Miracles, some Storm, but I didn't really see any around me. I did see some at the higher tables though. There definitely seemed to be a lot of Stoneforge decks in the room, which made me feel good about the Manriki, but since I didn't play against them it felt like a waste of a slot. I'd change that Revoker to a Needle next time, since I found I mostly wanted needle effects against decks running P-Fire. I only played against 1 Blue deck (Infect), so I'm definitely happy I didn't do the maindeck 6 Blasts.

[CptHaddock]

Hey guys, here's a link to a painter discord (since there wasn't one): https://discord.gg/3u8Ye9f

It tries to capture all the major archetypes separated by whether they're more stompy focused or combo/synergy focused and generally seems a good place to aggregate discussions and get feedback.

What? All painter decks are combo focused...

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alright, I'm still looking towards building Painter's Stone, but specifically a (looks up the Apocalypse-volvers) Imperial Raka list with a five-card Bomberman as a back-up combo. The goal with the back-up is to assemble the Painter's Stone combo as normal, then mill myself to put all five Bomberman pieces into my yard. Use Unburial Rites to return Auriok Salvagers, start generating infinite mana with LED, then proceed to use Conjurer's Bauble once to effectively return Laboratory Maniac to my hand, cast Laboratory Maniac, then use Conjurer's Bauble one more time to draw nothing and win via Laboratory Maniac's replacement effect.

My issue however is that 3-mana to activate grind stone followed by an additional 4-mana to flashback Unburial Rites on the same turn is probably too little too late against what the back-up is aiming to fight--the original Eldrazi Titans in Enchantress, Show-and-Tell decks, 12-post, Eldrazi Stompy, Four Horsemen, etc. Also, opting for the Pyrite Spellbomb route still prevents me from winning against Leyline of Sanctity while still presenting the same problem of how to return Auriok Salvagers to the battlefield.

Any suggestions? Only two things I can thing of are Goblin Welder with God-Pharoh's Gift, and Dread Return with 3x Narcomoeba: the former requires Goblin Welder to be active, and the later requires and extra three slots dedicated to a back-up plan.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Unburial Rites
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Island

[drude1]

Alright, I'm still looking towards building Painter's Stone, but specifically a (looks up the Apocalypse-volvers) Imperial Raka list with a five-card Bomberman as a back-up combo. The goal with the back-up is to assemble the Painter's Stone combo as normal, then mill myself to put all five Bomberman pieces into my yard. Use Unburial Rites to return Auriok Salvagers, start generating infinite mana with LED, then proceed to use Conjurer's Bauble once to effectively return Laboratory Maniac to my hand, cast Laboratory Maniac, then use Conjurer's Bauble one more time to draw nothing and win via Laboratory Maniac's replacement effect.

My issue however is that 3-mana to activate grind stone followed by an additional 4-mana to flashback Unburial Rites on the same turn is probably too little too late against what the back-up is aiming to fight--the original Eldrazi Titans in Enchantress, Show-and-Tell decks, 12-post, Eldrazi Stompy, Four Horsemen, etc. Also, opting for the Pyrite Spellbomb route still prevents me from winning against Leyline of Sanctity while still presenting the same problem of how to return Auriok Salvagers to the battlefield.

Any suggestions? Only two things I can thing of are Goblin Welder with God-Pharoh's Gift, and Dread Return with 3x Narcomoeba: the former requires Goblin Welder to be active, and the later requires and extra three slots dedicated to a back-up plan.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Unburial Rites
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Island

This seems like a tall order. Having said that, you could have a one-of that shuffles back into your deck (like Progenitus) and grindstone yourself end-of-turn, untap, draw the progenitus and then have the mana to do what you need to do. You could also try playing recurring nightmare but it would obviously have to be in play and not in the graveyard and you would have to play black. I don't think though that I would worry that much about leyline. You can always blast the leyline and it really isn't seeing that much play. If I were you I would probably go with the the pyrite spellbomb plan as pyrites are decent on their own to remove troublesome creatures. Also realize that if you have enough mana and multiple grindstones or welders, you can grindstone yourself, then grindstone your opponent and have a tormod's crypt or nihil spellbomb or something to weld in in response to the eldrazi shuffle, activate the crypt and clear the graveyard in response to the eldrazi trigger. I've done that several times.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

This seems like a tall order. Having said that, you could have a one-of that shuffles back into your deck (like Progenitus) and grindstone yourself end-of-turn, untap, draw the progenitus and then have the mana to do what you need to do. You could also try playing recurring nightmare but it would obviously have to be in play and not in the graveyard and you would have to play black. I don't think though that I would worry that much about leyline. You can always blast the leyline and it really isn't seeing that much play. If I were you I would probably go with the the pyrite spellbomb plan as pyrites are decent on their own to remove troublesome creatures. Also realize that if you have enough mana and multiple grindstones or welders, you can grindstone yourself, then grindstone your opponent and have a tormod's crypt or nihil spellbomb or something to weld in in response to the eldrazi shuffle, activate the crypt and clear the graveyard in response to the eldrazi trigger. I've done that several times.

Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

I like Progenitus because in a worst-case scenario it can be pitched to Force of Will.

Also, just realized with infinite mana and basically my entire library going into my graveyard then my hand with infinite Bauble activations means I establish a win via the combat step over any number of turns as long as I abuse Pyroblast and Cyclonic Rift (note: that one is mostly there for any 'haha all my permanents have hexproof' shenanigans that may crop up, such as double Sterling Grove if that is still ran). Therefore, Laboratory Maniac easily gets cut.

Also Pt. II, Unburial Rites synergizes well with LED, allowing me to dump anything that is stuck in my hand into the graveyard, including Proggy, Salvagers, and Rites itself while allowing me to combo off this way with only three mana from lands (which, incidentally, is what I need to combo off with the main combo to get to this point).

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

Only thing I'm not sure on is the blue count for Force of Will: outside of Painter's Servant on the battlefield, I would only have 20 blue cards.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Nexus of Fate
1 Unburial Rites
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
2 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
2 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

[jasper]

Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

I like Progenitus because in a worst-case scenario it can be pitched to Force of Will.

Also, just realized with infinite mana and basically my entire library going into my graveyard then my hand with infinite Bauble activations means I establish a win via the combat step over any number of turns as long as I abuse Pyroblast and Cyclonic Rift (note: that one is mostly there for any 'haha all my permanents have hexproof' shenanigans that may crop up, such as double Sterling Grove if that is still ran). Therefore, Laboratory Maniac easily gets cut.

Also Pt. II, Unburial Rites synergizes well with LED, allowing me to dump anything that is stuck in my hand into the graveyard, including Proggy, Salvagers, and Rites itself while allowing me to combo off this way with only three mana from lands (which, incidentally, is what I need to combo off with the main combo to get to this point).

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

Only thing I'm not sure on is the blue count for Force of Will: outside of Painter's Servant on the battlefield, I would only have 20 blue cards.



As cool an idea as this is, I'm a little confused about what you gain by doing this. If you're that worried about Sneak and Show/Big Eldrazi, you can easily run graveyard hate. You can even get away with running a singleton Relic of Progenitus in the maindeck.

Assembling the combo to mill yourself and then win in a convoluted and disruptable way seems a little odd to me.

20 blue cards for Force should be fine, though.


What? All painter decks are combo focused...

The distinction combo/stompy just refers to the fact that some decks have stompy elements where others do not. Think of it as 'pure combo' vs. 'combo+stompy'.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

As cool an idea as this is, I'm a little confused about what you gain by doing this. If you're that worried about Sneak and Show/Big Eldrazi, you can easily run graveyard hate. You can even get away with running a singleton Relic of Progenitus in the maindeck.

Assembling the combo to mill yourself and then win in a convoluted and disruptable way seems a little odd to me.


Hmm ... true (particularly with the Tormod's Crypt bit; that would save me a lot of hoop-jumping).

. . .

It's going to be a good year or so before I can build this, so A) there may be more support and B) the meta will undoubtedly shift a good deal by then. But as janky as that four-card package may be, I'm going to just absolutey enjoy dominating the one game out of maybe a hundred I pull this off before I move it completely to the sideboard (perhaps in favor of Swords to Plowshares?)

Paraphrased quotes from both myself and Jasper for clarity; really what I'm most worried about is Enchantress/Solitaire, but that may very well be an unfounded fear, and Tormod's Crypt easily takes care of Eldrazi Titans while just waiting an extra turn would normally suffice against Natural Order into Progenitus or some shenanigans with Darksteel and Blightsteel Colossi. In hindsight, there is nothing to gain with those four cards (five if you include Cyclonic Rift, though I'm liking that more as an ace-in-the-hole should I need to reset their side of the board) from a tournament perspective except some wtf reactions though; my first instinct if I wanted to take this to something higher than the local level would be to just replace Salvagers, Rites, and Bauble with Swords to Plowshares while Nexus and Rift get replaced for more cantrips (most likely Preordain), maybe a singleton Gamble or Whir of Invention if I feel inclined.

[drude1]

@ELC: I'm also confused by this. I'm not sure what your actual alt win con is in your list and I'm confused by your "multiple attack steps" comment. It's not like the bauble gives you multiple consecutive turns. And you only get to use the unburial rites once no matter what as it is exiled after you flash it back. As for the solidarity matchup, I don't know if I've ever lost a match to that deck with painter. Just save your blasts and FoW for the important stuff. It's also like a 1/100 deck in the field these days. Although you might have someone who is on it locally I guess. If you are that worried about it, you are playing white. Just play 1-2 copies of cleanfall in your board.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[CptHaddock]

What is the point in even preparing for decks that haven't been relevant since like 2010? Imo the problem with the bomberman plan is that it's the vulnerable to the same things that the painter plan is vulnerable to. Surgical is a commonly played card especially since BR reanimator is a deck, people are keeping their removal spells in and will probably bring in more if they have it postboard, and you can randomly be blown out by artifact hate. Bomberman's mentor plan makes sense since it's effectively attacking from another angle that naturally fits into the deck so you won't end up in these situations where you have 2/3rd of the bomberman combo and then a grindstone.

I think that people get too cute about alternative win conditions, really alt win conditions should provide you a way to win while still supporting your primary game plan. The best "alternative" win conditions for this archetype are probably walkers or something along the lines of wurmcoil against tempo decks. Both somewhat invalidate a bunch of removal and synergize well with what painter is doing anyways. Game 1 the best thing to do against random Eldrazi (or other shufflers) playing decks is just comboing off. Most lists are playing some amount of cantrips, and then tutors like intuition, transmute and whirl so it's not that unreasonable to cycle through your deck to find your piece of yard hate and if you don't have those there is always the classic grindstone yourself + welder combo. Sometimes you can't find it, or lose because your opponent was just playing random cards.

If there is a lot of shuffling effects in your area I would actually just say play another deck.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ELC: I'm also confused by this. I'm not sure what your actual alt win con is in your list and I'm confused by your "multiple attack steps" comment. It's not like the bauble gives you multiple consecutive turns. And you only get to use the unburial rites once no matter what as it is exiled after you flash it back. As for the solidarity matchup, I don't know if I've ever lost a match to that deck with painter. Just save your blasts and FoW for the important stuff. It's also like a 1/100 deck in the field these days. Although you might have someone who is on it locally I guess. If you are that worried about it, you are playing white. Just play 1-2 copies of cleanfall in your board.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


What is the point in even preparing for decks that haven't been relevant since like 2010? Imo the problem with the bomberman plan is that it's the vulnerable to the same things that the painter plan is vulnerable to. Surgical is a commonly played card especially since BR reanimator is a deck, people are keeping their removal spells in and will probably bring in more if they have it postboard, and you can randomly be blown out by artifact hate. Bomberman's mentor plan makes sense since it's effectively attacking from another angle that naturally fits into the deck so you won't end up in these situations where you have 2/3rd of the bomberman combo and then a grindstone.

I think that people get too cute about alternative win conditions, really alt win conditions should provide you a way to win while still supporting your primary game plan. The best "alternative" win conditions for this archetype are probably walkers or something along the lines of wurmcoil against tempo decks. Both somewhat invalidate a bunch of removal and synergize well with what painter is doing anyways. Game 1 the best thing to do against random Eldrazi (or other shufflers) playing decks is just comboing off. Most lists are playing some amount of cantrips, and then tutors like intuition, transmute and whirl so it's not that unreasonable to cycle through your deck to find your piece of yard hate and if you don't have those there is always the classic grindstone yourself + welder combo. Sometimes you can't find it, or lose because your opponent was just playing random cards.

If there is a lot of shuffling effects in your area I would actually just say play another deck.


Paraphrased quotes from both myself and Jasper for clarity; really what I'm most worried about is Enchantress/Solitaire, but that may very well be an unfounded fear, and Tormod's Crypt easily takes care of Eldrazi Titans while just waiting an extra turn would normally suffice against Natural Order into Progenitus or some shenanigans with Darksteel and Blightsteel Colossi. In hindsight, there is nothing to gain with those four cards (five if you include Cyclonic Rift, though I'm liking that more as an ace-in-the-hole should I need to reset their side of the board) from a tournament perspective except some wtf reactions though; my first instinct if I wanted to take this to something higher than the local level would be to just replace Salvagers, Rites, and Bauble with Swords to Plowshares while Nexus and Rift get replaced for more cantrips (most likely Preordain), maybe a singleton Gamble or Whir of Invention if I feel inclined.

Quoting the three of us, just for reference:

1. It was a cute idea, nothing more; CptHaddock is more likely than not right in that Walkers or Wurmcoil is the way to go; I was mostly banking on using Painter's Stone as both the primary combo as well as an engine to get the secondary combo started, but once again, too cute for its own good.

2. For the record, for those that might be interested in this in whatever format or deck (not this one since I'm dropping this idea now), the sequence would be as follows:
--Assemble Painter's Combo with three mana from lands and either an active Welder or LED ready.
--Activate Grindstone (w/o using LED) targeting self, dumping Nexus of Fate into the library via replacement effects and the rest of the library into the graveyard, including LED (if it isn't ready), Rites, Salvagers, and Bauble.
--Get LED back by sacrificing Grindstone to Welder if needed before cracking LED for WWW.
--Pay 3W to flashback Rites for Salvager, then generate infinite mana by doing bomberman things.
--From here, you can go grab bauble and place your entire graveyard into your library and then your library into your hand, which enable infinite recursion of any spell that isn't exiled (including nonland permanents via Pyroblast destroying your own permanents). This also means that you can have a full grip of blasts and fows against an empty board. NOTE: Obviously, this is win-more
--To top it off, Nexus of Fate can be cast indefinitely as it will be the only card in your library as long as it hits the graveyard, meaning infinite turns for you. NOTE: Again, for emphasis that I am sorry I even brought this up, this is win-more

3. Anyhow, like I said before, without this convoluted contingency plan, what are some good options for back-up plans/additional control?

[felipe_tardoqui]

I'm playing with the list below. I am currently 13-1, but only games before the ban.
Change I think of doing, is to replace 1 Imperial Recruiter for something, I'm not sure what yet, depends on the course of the meta game.

1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Seat of the Synod

3 Goblin Welder
3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Pyroblast

2 Search for Azcanta

1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle

I played with my list for the weekend in an IRL tournament (changes: -1 Transmute Artifact +1 Ponder, I don't have Transmute Artifact). Final result 2-2-2.
Below is a short report and soon after some considerations about the performance of the list.

1: Mono Red Prison (2-1).
I lose game 1 for Blood Moon turn 1 (with only a swamp in hand) in turn 1, a Chalice for 1 in turn 2, and one Chandra, the Torch of Defiance on turn 3. Game 2 win with Welder controlling my opponent's artifacts, and using a FoW in Fiery Confluence. Game 3 my made a chalice for 1 turn 1, BMoon turn 2 and chalice for 2 turn 3. Now I have one fetland for Island in turn 2. In my turn 3 I made Dack Fayden, and start diging for something. Find one Recruiter, made recruiter for Tricket Mage, for explosives and use for 0 on chalices. Win this game with a combo, I don't remember exactly how.

2: Mono Red Prison (2-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPT5Blm5AU&t=69s

3: Miracles (0-1)
Game 1 took about 40 minutes. I believe I lost in a play where I lost a Copter and a Search for Azcanta for an explosive in turn 4. Because then my opponent managed to get many cards in his hand. We both did Jace TMS, but mine could not find good answers, he managed to kill my Jace with a Snapcaster beating for 3 turns. I did not see any Strix in this game either, and I think we ended up with less than 15 cards on the deck. I tried to fight once, on my last shift, but he had Snapcaster for Swords and FoW. Game 2 I was in the lead in the last round of the final five shifts, Azcanta on the table, and a card in hand and my opponent with no cards in hand and only with Lands in play. I think I have a great chance in this game because I have advantage of cards, but we did not have time to finish the game.

4: Lands (0-2)
Game 1 I lost with my opponent doing the 20/20 very fast, and I only managed to find one Strix, without Welders. Game 2 managed to bypass a Punishing Fire and a Loam because it had 2 Nihil in the hand, it took a long time for my opponent to get the combo, and I had a Meekstone on the table. He found a Krosan Grip, which hit the Meekstone and began to attack. At this point I had 2 Strix, 1 Painter, 1 Search for Azcanta and 4 lands, my opponent had some unimportant lands, the Marit Lage and a Tabernacle. At this point I chose to Leave the 2 Strix alive, flip the Azcanta and make a Dack Fayden, to try to find a Welder to regain control of the game. Said and done, I found the Welder, and a Pithing Needle. On his turn he only attacked, and I blocked with a Strix, leaving me only one Strix. On my turn I did the Welder and the Needle for Barbarian Ring, and I got FoW + a blue card in hand, I think a ponder. Here I made a shameful mistake that caused my defeat. In his turn he did Gamble ... And I did not use FoW, because at that very moment only the Punishing Fire came into my head ... When he started to shuffle that I remembered the Krosan Grip, he discarded any terrain, did the Krosan Grip at Strix and won the game. I just lost because a very ugly mistake. Anyway, we would not have time to play a game 3. If I had not been wrong in Game 2, it would have been a draw.

5: Grixis Death Shadow (1-1)
Game 1 did not take long, half normal game, he did 2 Death Shadow, it was 7 life, and I was with 2 Bolts in hand. I did a Daretti + Tezzeret, but he gave top draw on a takedown and won the game. Game 2 managed to control the game very well, with a Bridge + Strix + Copter. My opponent died for Copter, but this game took forever, and it ended 3 minutes before the end of time. We did not play game 3 because it would not give time.

6: Food Chain (with Emrakul) (1-1)
Normal games, I won game 1 in beatdown and it game 2 in beatdown. But it was really long games, especially the first, he won the game 2 in the last round of the final five shifts. Again no time to play the game 3.


Considerations: The deck is extremely fun to play, I liked it a lot, but unfortunately it is really very slow, there are very few effective ways to win the game, I played only in xMage, and there I did not have that problem of time. Conclusion is that in general, it is impossible to have time for a game 3 and I do not play slowly, no opponent complained of slow play, I play with miracles and this deck is much slower than Miracles, and therefore unfortunately the deck tends to draw too much. I think I'm going to have to go back to deckbuilding and try to put in more kill conditions. This really was the only negative of the deck, not having time to play Game 3, because I really enjoyed playing with it. There are lots of cool interactions with Welder (my favorite creature), Painter + Grindstone (my favorite combo), and it's a control deck (my favorite archetype).

[pettdan]

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1045949&viewfull=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1045949&viewfull=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

Out of curiosity, would you recommend Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void for Jeskai versions? I can always try for a Enlightened Tutor build if that's the case. (note, I'm actually somewhat concerned with Progenitus in Elves!, if they even still run that, as well as Eldrazi Titans in Sneak and Show and Eldrazi Stompy, hence why I am hesitant about going straight for Tormod's Crypt and such).

[pettdan]

Hey EpicLevelCommoner! Ok, I haven't played Jeskai Painter yet, though I'm working on a list, but I'll happily provide my opinion anyway. I'm sure others can join in with their comments too.

I have the impression that Elves currently play Elderscale Wurm, but there is probably some experimentation going on so good to be aware of a possible Progenitus.

You can still use Tormod's Crypt with an Eldrazi/whatever shuffle effect on the stack, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to use the crypt? Maybe I'm forgetting something. Only the replacement effects from Progenitus and Darksteel Colossus prevent it from entering the graveyard. But even with one of those two in the deck, the opponent's library will end up being 1 card only, which is still pretty useful. So, I think you can safely use Tormod's Crypt, I can't think of a major disadvantage over Rest in Peace [edit: well that would be missing the interaction between Helm and RiP]. I wouldn't play Leyline of the Void in a non-black version. I would try 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard, 1-2 Crypts and 0-1 Rest in Peace depending on the amount of Welders in your list. Actually, if you play no Welders, which seems like a shame, Rest in Peace will have quite the effect vs Canadian Threshold so maybe even playing 2 would seem good.

Edit (I think CptHaddock wrote the next post while I was adding this): This question was more complicated than I first thought, at least from my view. The reason that I play Helm+Leyline in black lists is that I sometimes want to play 2-3 Leylines, and 1 Helm is then an easy addition. In white lists, it's a bit more complicated because usually I wouldn't play 2-3 RiP's. Playing 1 Helm and 1 RiP (and probably 1-2 Enlightened Tutors) just makes it a bit unreliable to put that combo together. You also miss the speed of having half of the combo put into play for free. I think you can try it though.

[CptHaddock]

Unless you're playing a full on Helm/RIP deck with the painter combo i'd recommend just playing a crypt/relic in your main and then having the "harder" yard hate in your sideboard. You really only need 1 piece, and a lot of the times it might end up dead so you can shuffle it away. Welder is one of the best cards in the painter archetype and you probably don't want to completely disable him game 1.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hey EpicLevelCommoner! Ok, I haven't played Jeskai Painter yet, though I'm working on a list, but I'll happily provide my opinion anyway. I'm sure others can join in with their comments too.

I have the impression that Elves currently play Elderscale Wurm, but there is probably some experimentation going on so good to be aware of a possible Progenitus.

You can still use Tormod's Crypt with an Eldrazi/whatever shuffle effect on the stack, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to use the crypt? Maybe I'm forgetting something. Only the replacement effects from Progenitus and Darksteel Colossus prevent it from entering the graveyard. But even with one of those two in the deck, the opponent's library will end up being 1 card only, which is still pretty useful. So, I think you can safely use Tormod's Crypt, I can't think of a major disadvantage over Rest in Peace. I wouldn't play Leyline of the Void in a non-black version. I would try 1-2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard, 1-2 Crypts and 0-1 Rest in Peace depending on the amount of Welders in your list. Actually, if you play no Welders, which seems like a shame, Rest in Peace will have quite the effect vs Canadian Threshold so maybe even playing 2 would seem good.

Thanks for the input ^_^; I guess I'm stuck on the philosophy that only the killing blow matters, hence why I'm concerned about Progenitus (it actually was used a while back with Natural Order as an anti-control measure, but it looks like they favor an anti-tempo compliment to Cratehoof now though?). And yes, I agree with that sentiment on not disabling Welder; once it goes active, it becomes pretty difficult for the opponent to win, especially if you also have Painter on the field as well. I just don't want to auto-lose any game 1s; I have enough trouble with that concerning Company decks against Tron in Modern, and why I switched from Nic Fit to Painter despite having built Nic Fit three times over the past five years hehehe (for the record, I love Nic Fit, I just hate its combo matchups).

As an aside, I should really know that their are certain life/library thresholds one should be wary about in any format. Down to 3 life in Modern? You can't fetch for an untapped shock, and you better be wary about Lightning Bolt. Down to 1 life in Legacy? Better hope you already have enough mana to hardcast Force of Will, especially since you can't fetch for anything now.

Anyhow, enough rambling about lessons that should've been learned; here is a tentative list I'm looking at:


4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Saheeli Rai
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors


Really wanting to toy with the numbers for LED and Transmute, as LED can fuel Transmute's additional cost if needed (not mention also be used to activate Grindstone if I Transmute a spare artifact into that). I could probably go for a higher artifact count or at least artifact generators in other color schemes (straight UR with artifact lands and Grixis with Daretti seems the best for that), but I also like the idea of having Enlightened Tutor and Ethersworn Canonist as well. Not to mention the potential for the Modern CopyCat combo from the side with Saheeli Rai (before you ask, both Felidar Guardian and Saheeli Rai have some value by themselves with Welder, Trinket Mage, and Recruiter, and I don't think it's unreasonable to reach 3W with a partially stompy manabase for Guardian; could very well be wrong of course though).

Thoughts? I may have also miscounted the cards as I was trimming numbers.

[felipe_tardoqui]

@felipe_tardoqui: Your list is quite similar to the one I posted not so long ago, while Deathrite was around. Using different numbers but mostly the same cards, major difference being the Recruiters and some more planeswalkers (to some extent I guess all Grixis Painter lists are similar, but this was more so than usual). So I'm very interested in reading about your experiences and ideas.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20590-Deck-Painter-Stone&p=1045949&viewfull=1#post1045949

I'm a little bit surprised the planeswalkers don't help you close out games. I'm wondering what could be done to help winning faster (a question I need to ask myself too).
- Copter is a card that may help winning games, so perhaps adding a copy of that? I imagine Recruiter is too slow without the sol lands, I would cut one for the third Copter.
- The Helm+LotV sideboard also helps win quickly, you could try it. Maybe if you truly want to be able to win quickly, you could add it to the maindeck (well, that would be more experimental than most would appreciate). Maybe with a second Transmute maindeck, to power out faster helms enabled by Welder.
- Search for Azcanta seems like a slow way to build incremental advantage, maybe you could change it into 2 Snapcaster Mages, with 3 Lightning bolts (that you play) and going up to 3 Copters you would be able to use Snapcasters to pressure life totals.
- Similarly Tezzeret can win a game quickly, pressuring life totals, while Jace wins slowly.

Well, just some ideas... Actually, the updates I'm making to my list are in another direction, but I keep changing from week to week so not much use going into that, which would be a much bigger discussion anyway.

Maybe I just draw badly... I draw I think 1 time Jace and 2 times Tezzeret in intire tournament.
I think in replace Fayden or Azcanta for Tezzeret and test again. I replace one Bolt for Abrade, so now I use 2 bolts, 1 abrade and 1 k. command. Maybe new Tezzeret its a good option too, he have a "kill condition" in +1, a good draw engine in 0 and a kill condition in -9. Sadly its 5 manas, but... Maybe I test one.

[pettdan]

@EpicLevelCommoner: There's so much to consider and comment on, not sure where to start and what comments are actually motivated. Try the list and see how it goes, that's probably the best advice. But based on my preferences and ideas (I like Bomberman and Copter), here are a few comments. Take this with plenty of grains of salt.

Some notable exclusions are Ensnaring Bridge and artifact removal. I tend to play some number of Abrades, Engineered Explosives, Manic Vandals or some other creatures to answer Chalice, Jitte and Vial that can otherwise often build up too much pressure. Also Null Rod can come in from the sideboard, and having answers to that is great. I would skip the Enlightened Tutor and add an Ensnaring Bridge. You have the two Transmutes to tutor for it, and 8 cantrips.

I haven't played Saheeli yet but I can't see the situations in which she'd be very strong, but I'm all for people trying things. If you want to try Felidar Guardian, consider trying Auriok Salvagers too for the Bomberman combo. Trinket Mage and Recruiter help finding the needed pieces, and they help with the Painter Combo too. Salvagers buys back Grindstone and goes infinite with a LED, which you're playing. To make Salvagers good you need a couple of more artifacts though so I guess it's nothing for your current list, just wanted to remind you of that alternative with the same casting cost. By itself, in the right deck, the Salvagers is not just hanging around waiting for the combo to turn up, he lets you basically draw cards for 2 mana each which is pretty great.

It seems like you aren't really utilizing the sol lands, but what do I know. They are great with Painter, Grindstone and the Recruiters, but I'd like to see more cards making use of that extra mana.
- I'd be tempted to add Copters, works great with sol lands, but your creature count is at 9 so that'd be too low.
- Maybe try a Nahiri, the Harbinger? Plainswalkers feel so much better when you can ramp them out. She can find the Felidar Guardian if you add it. Or Jace he's of course probably better..
- I guess Transmute Artifact may be a bit hard to play. Actually, Trinket Mage may fit better with the Sol Lands, unless you specifically want to tutor for some expensive artifacts (only Painter it would seem). Adding those two gets your creature count closer to having Copter playable.

I can personally never fit 4 StP's in a Painter list, it seems, there are so many sweet synergetic artifacts to try to get in there first. Like for example, a single Jitte can mow down endless armies from the opponent or gain life when that becomes an issue. I'd consider playing a Jitte over the 4th StP, you can also tutor for the Jitte with the Transmutes (4 mana available and opponent tapped out? Transmute, equip and attack) which increases the flexibilty of the deck (1 Jitte = 3 virtual copies of creature removal) while also being able to recur the Jitte with a Welder if needed. And with the sol lands in the deck you could be swinging with an equipped Jitte on t2, that wins a lot of games by itself. On the other hand, you have a low creature count so maybe Jitte isn't so great after all... And StP is a great card.

When playing the StP's, Snapcaster Mage becomes interesting. Being able to play a removal heavy deck, in the matchups where it matters, while also being able to flashback Pyroblasts (which is useful when StP isn't) is pretty great. Would also work great with Copter.

You could consider maindeck Relic of Progenitus over the Tormod's Crypt. I think I might prefer it in the maindeck since you can always sacrifice it to draw a new card, if it's in your starting hand you can probably blow it up before too much artifacts are lost that Welder wants to play with. Also, if you draw excessive artifacts you can user Welder and Relic to trade them in for fresh, new cards. Giving Welder the looting ability can be pretty nice.

AngryBacon had a sweet list which focused on comboing quicker posted on the Discord, have a look at it and see if you can use it for inspiration for a Jeskai list. It focuses more on LED+Transmute and it's a very interesting list.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks, I think I have a new direction to go with this based on your advice (notably Bomberman, grave-hate, and creature count) although one with a very greedy mana base. Thoughts are still welcome however;

Grixis-Splash-White Painter's Stone (Heavy Control Element)

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

1 Lotus Petal

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Auriok Salvagers

3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Transmute Artifact

4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Kolaghan's Command


I will be attempting to try this at my LGS's proxy Legacy tournament next Tuesday before I actually invest in the auxiliary elements, but this looks like it covers my creature count for Copter with Daretti 2.0's +1, my removal suite with Kommand and Daretti 2.0's -1, alternative win-condition (or rather the same win-condition backed by the inevitability of infinite mana and/or infinite draw) with a 3-card Bomberman package, great recursive value with Welder, Ruins, Kommand, and Salvagers, and a a cantrip/looter/transmute suite designed for use with LED. Only apparent issue I have currently (outside of the 'how to sideboard' problem I have in all formats) is the mana base; I'd like to add more Mox Opals or Lotus Petals somehow.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My apologies for the double post, but I wanted to get some last minute feedback on a newer rendition of the previous list:

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Trinket Mage
1 Auriok Salvagers

4 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Smuggler's Copter

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Burning Wish

3 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Abrade

SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Death Wish
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Hope of Ghirapur
SB: 5 Mudhole

Idea with so many Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond is to help assemble either combo more reliably while also enabling a turn 2 or turn 3 wishboard if needed; one sequence I think would be particularly spicy would be the following

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb --> Painter's Servant
Turn 2: Mountain --> Lion's Eye Diamond --> Burning Wish [LED in response for BBB] --> Infernal Tutor --> Grindstone
Turn 3: Win via Grindstone activation

Or, if you start with Grindstone but no Painter's Servant

Turn 1: Mountain --> Grindstone
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb --> Lion's Eye Diamond --> Burning Wish [LED in response for BBB] --> Infernal Tutor --> Painter's Servant
Turn 3: Win via Grindstone activation

'Mudhole' is my filler for the rest of my wishboard atm; I have no idea what would be some great mono-colored 3 CMC or less haymaker sorceries that would be great hits off of an LED-fueled Burning Wish, let alone what is worth chaining an LED-fueled Burning Wish into Death Wish that would be Human, Red, Blue, or Colorless and worth waiting until turn 3 at the earliest to use. (btw, utilizing Bomberman's Stompy's mana base to help cast all of this seems good). Any advice would be appreciated.

On second thought, Death Wish is probably a bad idea outside of game 1 hedging.

[felipe_tardoqui]

Game against Mono Red Prison with my grinding list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPT5Blm5AU&t=69s

[H]

Not sure which Painter thread is the right one, but anyone with any idea why Brian Durkin's Mono-U List (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123939) is running Darkslick Shores, over, say Underground Seas? Is it to avoid Choke?

[Megadeus]

Not sure which Painter thread is the right one, but anyone with any idea why Brian Durkin's Mono-U List (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123939) is running Darkslick Shores, over, say Underground Seas? Is it to avoid Choke?

Also could just be a budget choice.

[H]

Also could just be a budget choice.

Yeah, that's what I am trying to gauge. It certainly seems a little strange strategically, as Choke doesn't seem like a widely played card at the moment.

[whienot]

Read his top 8 profile. He states he doesn't own duals or fetches.

[H]

Read his top 8 profile. He states he doesn't own duals or fetches.

Thanks, they don't make it easy to remind that on the website after the event.

I guess than the question would be, what is the "more optimal" mana base for the deck? 4 Seas? Or go with Fetches and Duals?

[CptHaddock]

Thanks, they don't make it easy to remind that on the website after the event.

I guess than the question would be, what is the "more optimal" mana base for the deck? 4 Seas? Or go with Fetches and Duals?

I think that shores are slightly better here since they give you give you choke protection + enable you to cast an EE for 3 with the help of an opal to get rid of a choke. I would imagine a more optimal build would involve fetches, duals and brainstorms but that is probably an entirely different deck.

[drude1]

My question is why would you not build this deck with chalice and whir??? Antiquities war is actually a sweet and powerful alt. Win con but I would definitely play chalice in this deck. Just replace the preordain with whir.

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[Megadeus]

My question is why would you not build this deck with chalice and whir??? Antiquities war is actually a sweet and powerful alt. Win con but I would definitely play chalice in this deck. Just replace the preordain with whir.

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Chalice hurts your main combo which is Grindstone

[drude1]

Not with whir in your deck.

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[Fallen_Empire]

Not with whir in your deck.

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I want to believe but 3 blue can be a lot with so many sol lands and no petals..

[drude1]

It's also running opals and a chrome mox. I would cut one of the opals and add another island. Just remember, this change would be for the ability to run one of the most busted cards in magic. There are decks (eg. Most delver strategies, miracles and for sure death's shadow) that are totally neutered by chalice. Why wouldn't you run it in your 7 Sol land deck. Even on turn two chalice is nut. I've been playing this some online (even with the grindstone bug) and I just think chalice is huge. Whir is also good for that surprise combo of out of nowhere or surprised tormod's crypt against graveyard strategies.

In other news, had anyone else been playing with antiquities war up to this point? I need to start paying more attention to newer cards. This thing is bonkers.

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[compacta_d]

I think even WITH moxen the UUU is tough.

It was tough in the Whir build with only 3 non islands.

[CptHaddock]

Someone refresh me on the chalice list. Wasn't it playing 13-14 lands and some number of azcantas on top of that? That seems like it'd be enough to cast whirl atleast semi consistently. Imo the biggest issue with the chalice list is what Megadeus said, that's you are playing chalice in your combo deck where one of your pieces is 1 cmc.

[drude1]

Let me be clear, if you have chalice on turn one you are playing it, just like you play a turn one blood moon in shortcake even though your tutors are white. You have other answers in the deck to either combo out later by getting a grindstone with whir or eating the chalice with Sai if you need to. Or you win with antiquities war which is probably 70% of your wins anyway given it's basically a one card combo. Chalice is such a strong effect that it takes over games on its own just like blood moon sometimes does. You guys play what you want. But I would be happy to play against any of you not playing chalice in your mono blue painter deck when I do have chalice in mine.

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[jasper]

Someone refresh me on the chalice list. Wasn't it playing 13-14 lands and some number of azcantas on top of that? That seems like it'd be enough to cast whirl atleast semi consistently. Imo the biggest issue with the chalice list is what Megadeus said, that's you are playing chalice in your combo deck where one of your pieces is 1 cmc.

I've been going back and forth on Search for Azcanta in my chalice builds. I do like it, and it's certainly good against Grixis and Miracles, but it's also quite slow. I've been liking Flusterstorm (yes, even in a deck with Chalice) because the deck struggles against discard in general and Hymn to Tourach especially. It also protects your combo and does work against other combo decks. Overall I think either is defensible and it depends on your playstyle and what you expect to face.

As far as the anti-synergy between playing Chalice and Grindstone in the same deck, it's a question of whether having access to Chalice is better than whatever else you could be doing [in mono-blue], and I think there's a strong argument that it is. The reason for this is that you have 5 ways to put Grindstone into play through a Chalice, and Chalice is probably the strongest prison card in legacy at the moment. In many cases, if it doesn't prompt an outright concession, it buys you enough time to put together even a 'clunkier' combo via a Whir or Transmute.

You can also end up in situations where if your opponent destroys your Chalice to unlock other cards in their hand, you can play your Grindstone and either win on the spot or follow up with another Chalice.

If I had to register something tomorrow, it would probably be something along these lines:


4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grindstone
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb

4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Walking Ballista

4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Whir of Invention
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

14 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Spellskite
1 Meekstone

I would like to try Sai and The Antiquities War in a similar build to this, having played them both in a non-painter build recently. If you do, you obviously want to up the cheap artifact count, which in turn lets you play Mox Opal and possibly Thoughtcast over Thirst for Knowledge. I haven't played this list, but I think it's a reasonable starting point.


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grindstone
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Welding Jar
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Mox Opal
1 Chrome Mox

4 Painter’s Servant
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Walking Ballista

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast
3 The Antiquities War

2 Whir of Invention
2 Transmute Artifact

8 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
1 Spellskite
1 Meekstone

[kinda]

You can also end up in situations where if your opponent destroys your Chalice to unlock other cards in their hand, you can play your Grindstone and either win on the spot or follow up with another Chalice.


Where do I sign up?

[drude1]

Fyi, bug is fixed!

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[drude1]

I've been going back and forth on Search for Azcanta in my chalice builds. I do like it, and it's certainly good against Grixis and Miracles, but it's also quite slow. I've been liking Flusterstorm (yes, even in a deck with Chalice) because the deck struggles against discard in general and Hymn to Tourach especially. It also protects your combo and does work against other combo decks. Overall I think either is defensible and it depends on your playstyle and what you expect to face.

As far as the anti-synergy between playing Chalice and Grindstone in the same deck, it's a question of whether having access to Chalice is better than whatever else you could be doing [in mono-blue], and I think there's a strong argument that it is. The reason for this is that you have 5 ways to put Grindstone into play through a Chalice, and Chalice is probably the strongest prison card in legacy at the moment. In many cases, if it doesn't prompt an outright concession, it buys you enough time to put together even a 'clunkier' combo via a Whir or Transmute.

You can also end up in situations where if your opponent destroys your Chalice to unlock other cards in their hand, you can play your Grindstone and either win on the spot or follow up with another Chalice.

If I had to register something tomorrow, it would probably be something along these lines:


4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grindstone
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb

4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Walking Ballista

4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Whir of Invention
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

14 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Spellskite
1 Meekstone

I would like to try Sai and The Antiquities War in a similar build to this, having played them both in a non-painter build recently. If you do, you obviously want to up the cheap artifact count, which in turn lets you play Mox Opal and possibly Thoughtcast over Thirst for Knowledge. I haven't played this list, but I think it's a reasonable starting point.


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grindstone
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Welding Jar
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Mox Opal
1 Chrome Mox

4 Painter’s Servant
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Walking Ballista

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast
3 The Antiquities War

2 Whir of Invention
2 Transmute Artifact

8 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Back to Basics
2 Echoing Truth
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
1 Spellskite
1 Meekstone

I actually like a couple elements of your Antiquties War list so gave it a try. First, the bad... I would get rid of the one of walking ballista and swap out the e.e for a ratchet bomb. I think those two cards are only good when you have trinket mage to go find them. they aren't very good when you are tutoring them into play with whir/transmute/tezz. You probably also still need a bridge main.
The good... I actually really like the mix of whir/transmute/tezz over 4 x whir. In fact, I played a couple matches against Miracles and tezz is just pure nut. Would consider playing 2 main or 1 main and 1 SB. I also REALLY like thoughtcast in the deck and think it's totally fine to shave an antiquities war, grindstone, etc to make room for them.
I'm actually trying Null Brooch in the SB for Miracles and other combo decks. Not sure it will be at all good but just fun spice.
So far undefeated but only playing in the practice room so far. Not sure the deck is quite ready for prime time yet.

[zwdrew]

Not sure which Painter thread is the right one, but anyone with any idea why Brian Durkin's Mono-U List (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123939) is running Darkslick Shores, over, say Underground Seas? Is it to avoid Choke?

This is clearly a transcription error. The correct card is Darksteel Citadel.

[Alfy]

This is clearly a transcription error. The correct card is Darksteel Citadel.

Ah, I was really wondering, even Undergorund Sea did not make much sense (except perhaps for EE). Your explanation makes much more sense.

[drude1]

Ah, I was really wondering, even Undergorund Sea did not make much sense (except perhaps for EE). Your explanation makes much more sense.Umm, no it was actually dark slick shores and that was for e.e. and it wasn't underground sea for Budget reasons. Guy was interviewed about the deck.

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[SDBobPlissken]

Umm, no it was actually dark slick shores and that was for e.e. and it wasn't underground sea for Budget reasons. Guy was interviewed about the deck.

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Is there a video of the interview? I was playing at my LGS with someone who has playtested against him and asked if it was dark steel citadel or darkslick shores. He says he’s pretty sure it was dark steel citadel. This is post Baltimore though so he could have changed them to citadels.

[drude1]

Is there a video of the interview? I was playing at my LGS with someone who has playtested against him and asked if it was dark steel citadel or darkslick shores. He says he’s pretty sure it was dark steel citadel. This is post Baltimore though so he could have changed them to citadels.

Well, here's a small snippet from SCG website:

Brian Durkin

Age: 33

Hometown:
Philadelphia, PA

Archetype:
Mono-Blue Painter

Why did you play the deck you played this weekend?[B][B]
I brewed it 2 weeks ago and I came to test for Eternal Weekend. [B]I don't own fetches or duals so I had to get creative.

Will Assassin's Trophy make an impact on Legacy? If so, how much?
Yes. Right now Abrupt Decay can't answer the Antiquities War. The older the format the better Assassin's Trophy becomes.

Also, here's a video of the coverage where he is playing Darkslick Shores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeCm3MPdaP8

[H]

Also, here's a video of the coverage where he is playing Darkslick Shores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeCm3MPdaP8
Yeah, if you jump to ~10:27, you can see he looks at one off the Antiquities War trigger.

[Alfy]

Fair enough. I durdled around with the deck, and indeed it is not always that easy to have a second color available for EE, so I guess replacing the shores by seas is the way to go.

I’m still very unsure how interesting this build is for an environment like MODO. Antiquities is great against fair decks, threatening to win with creatures while helping dig for combo pieces, but getting it to resolve can be a pain. And there’s nothing much to protect the combo pieces themselves, only 4 FoW mainboard, and I guess the Spellskite, and nothing much against other combo decks. I feel like I’d need to watch a few videos of this deck before I’d enter a league with this...

[drude1]

Fair enough. I durdled around with the deck, and indeed it is not always that easy to have a second color available for EE, so I guess replacing the shores by seas is the way to go.

I’m still very unsure how interesting this build is for an environment like MODO. Antiquities is great against fair decks, threatening to win with creatures while helping dig for combo pieces, but getting it to resolve can be a pain. And there’s nothing much to protect the combo pieces themselves, only 4 FoW mainboard, and I guess the Spellskite, and nothing much against other combo decks. I feel like I’d need to watch a few videos of this deck before I’d enter a league with this...

That's why you play it with chalice.
I've been playing the deck on MTGO (mostly practice room stuff) and it performs pretty well. However, I've actually cut down on the painter/grindstone combo quite a bit (3 painter/1 grindstone) to add thopter/swords combo, which is just bonkers against things like Miracles and grixis. Chalice is obviously great against combo. Eldrazi post is still difficult and the only way I win is when I get painter + llawan out and strip their deck of or counter all is dust. Here's my current list:


// 60 Maindeck
// 17 Artifact
3 Mox Opal
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Tormod's Crypt

// 7 Creature
3 Painter's Servant
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Spellskite

// 3 Enchantment
3 The Antiquities War

// 6 Instant
4 Force of Will
2 Whir of Invention

// 21 Land
4 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

// 5 Sorcery
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Thoughtcast


// 15 Sideboard

SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Null Brooch (Just a fun card, would probably be 3sphere in a competitive tourney)
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Unmoored Ego
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[colo]

I've been testing a Grixis Painter list rocking the Thopter/Sword combo myself for two tournaments, so far with suboptimal results - but I guess I figured out how to play (strategically) now, and expect my performance (and list) to improve. Right now, this is where I am at:


// Grixis Painter

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Grindstone
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry

// 13 Creature
4 Painter's Servant
4 Baleful Strix
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage

// 14 Instant
4 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm

// 20 Land
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Seat of the Synod
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire

// 6 Sorcery
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Ponder


Going forward, I see myself trying out more Lim-Dul's Vault (this mini-Doomsday-pile-thing is really strong!) and maybe a third Transmute Artifact, since it's so damn versatile and tends to win the games that I manage to resolve it.

[CptHaddock]

Some of those numbers look off. If you're playing the fullset of strixes you probably want to be playing more than 2 goblin welder since swapping strixes is just a source of CA. The trinket mage seems a little misplaced. Fixing mana + getting grindstone is nice, but unless you're running some silver bullets in the sideboard he doesn't seem that good. I'd do a 2/1 split of foundry/sword since you probably want to see the enabler a lot more than you want the actual sword.

[Spud911]

Went 5-0 with this list the other day
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-10-13

It was my first run with it since they finally fixed the grindstone bug.

I have also built it in paper and have been doing very well at our local Friday Legacy.

I made a few changes from the stock list
- Darkslick Shores, I don't really get. Changed to Darksteel Citadels.
- Ditched the Chrome Mox for a Lotus Petal
- Added an Academy Ruins
- I am testing a bunch of different sideboard cards.

Really enjoying the deck, it always seems to have an answer for almost every matchup. Here are some quick notes on my matches.
It was a mixed bag of decks for sure.


Match 1 2-0 (4C Loam)
Game 1:
Turn 1 Grindstone and Painter (Lotus Petal, City of Traitors)
Turn 2 Activate

Game 2:
Really Grindy Match. Opponent was able to kill two painters and vindicate Antquities War. But a turn 9 Painter top decked with two grindstones sealed the deal.


Match 2 2-1 (Gitrog Monster.dec)
Game 1:
Turn 1 Painter, Opponent Wastelands the City of Traitors. Darksteel, Mox Opal, Grindstone Turn 2. Turn 3 Drop another Mox Opal to activate.

Game 2:
Finally get to see what Opponent is on. Its a BUG deck with Gitrog Monster, Liliana the Last Hope, and Garruk the Veil Cursed. Spicy.
Go for an early win with Painter, Lotus Petal, Mox Opal. Opponent drops EE for 0. He has academy ruins and bring EE back to hand and casts Liliana.
Get Sai online and Anitquities War, but end up dropping a bridge to not die from the Gitrog Monster. He Chalices on 1 to keep the grindstones out.
Game goes on for a long time while I hide behind bridge and Opponent ultimates Liliana and makes a Zombie Army.
Eventually manages to get rid of Bridge and I die horribly.

Game 3:
Another grindy match. Early Painter, no Grindstone. Get Karn online, Opponent EE's and then Chalices. Cast own EE for 0. Get a grindstone off the top Turn 9.



Match 3: 2-0 (Miraclesish? Played Daze and Volcanic Island)
Game 1: Opponent gets land screwed on 2 lands. Get early Grindstone, sandbag a Painter until I get get 5 mana. Cast Painter with FOW backup.
Game 2: Opponent EE's early Grindstone. Cast Antiquities War with FOW backup. Not enough artifacts to get the kill (Abrade), get a second Antiquities War in play.


Match 4: 2-0 (Dragon Stompy)
Game 1: Opponent turn 1's a Chalice of the Void on 1. Turn 3 Antiquities War, drop a bunch of Artifacts. Win
Game 2: FOW the early Chandra. Get Sai online. Meekstone locks down Stormbreath Dragon while Antiquities War Ticks up.


Match 5 2-0 (Antiquities War?, Karn)
Game 1: Early Painter, FOW EE, Cast Grindstone
Game 2: Get an early Sai, Opponent Spyglasses Grindstone. In return I Pithing Needle his Karn. Make lots of Thopters to block Karn Construct. Get down Antiquities War for the win.


I really like the bones of this deck, but I would like to try out a few things:
- Maybe test Whir. It would be a more reliable way to get grindstone out, and can work around Chalice. Might need to cut Sai though.
- Sometimes it can be hard to get Opal online early in the game. Might need to tweak the numbers a bit. Maybe play some Mishra's Baubles?
- Try out Echoing Truth in the Board. Might help against opposing Ensnaring Bridges on the Antiquities War kills, and can help when have own bridge out. Might be useful to bounce Chalices as well.

[colo]

Some of those numbers look off. If you're playing the fullset of strixes you probably want to be playing more than 2 goblin welder since swapping strixes is just a source of CA. The trinket mage seems a little misplaced. Fixing mana + getting grindstone is nice, but unless you're running some silver bullets in the sideboard he doesn't seem that good. I'd do a 2/1 split of foundry/sword since you probably want to see the enabler a lot more than you want the actual sword.

Thanks for your input/remarks :) Maybe my list makes more sense with some commentary... Initially, I had the Sword/Foundry split the other way around, but found that I did not like or need it that way: The combo itself is strictly plan B (from testing, I think to now know that I have to resist the urge to play the control role, and should pretty much always try to press for a quick Painter/Grindstone win with), and without its other half, Sword is a bit more useful than Foundry.

The real enabler in my list is Transmute Artifact (I plan to play another copy, but it's still in the mail), since it allows to get the appropriate combo's other half in a rather flexible and low-risk way - and with that card, saccing Sword of the Meek always feel better than getting rid of something that does not have innate recursion. Recurring Baleful Strix with Goblin Welder to abuse its EtB-trigger is a neat thing, but it's definitely not what you should plan to spend significant amounts of time on. I included Strix mainly due to the fact that it's a very good roadblock that most fast clocks in the format have to respect/handle, it can fuel Transmure Artifacts, it draws removal away from Painter and Grindstone, and it replaces itself. Its main secondary utility (apart from enabling Transmute Artifact), so far, was to slow the game down a bit after a failed combo attempt, while not costing me a card. I like it, but it does feel a bit clunky.

Trinket Mage opens the line of Imperial Recruiter -> Trinket Mage -> Grindstone, which is absurdly slow, but sometimes necessary. It gains a lot of utility post-board, when there's stuff like Engineered Explosives available.

[CptHaddock]

I made a few changes from the stock list
- Darkslick Shores, I don't really get. Changed to Darksteel Citadels.

- Try out Echoing Truth in the Board. Might help against opposing Ensnaring Bridges on the Antiquities War kills, and can help when have own bridge out. Might be useful to bounce Chalices as well.

Lol


Thanks for your input/remarks :) Maybe my list makes more sense with some commentary... Initially, I had the Sword/Foundry split the other way around, but found that I did not like or need it that way: The combo itself is strictly plan B (from testing, I think to now know that I have to resist the urge to play the control role, and should pretty much always try to press for a quick Painter/Grindstone win with), and without its other half, Sword is a bit more useful than Foundry.

The real enabler in my list is Transmute Artifact (I plan to play another copy, but it's still in the mail), since it allows to get the appropriate combo's other half in a rather flexible and low-risk way - and with that card, saccing Sword of the Meek always feel better than getting rid of something that does not have innate recursion. Recurring Baleful Strix with Goblin Welder to abuse its EtB-trigger is a neat thing, but it's definitely not what you should plan to spend significant amounts of time on. I included Strix mainly due to the fact that it's a very good roadblock that most fast clocks in the format have to respect/handle, it can fuel Transmure Artifacts, it draws removal away from Painter and Grindstone, and it replaces itself. Its main secondary utility (apart from enabling Transmute Artifact), so far, was to slow the game down a bit after a failed combo attempt, while not costing me a card. I like it, but it does feel a bit clunky.

Trinket Mage opens the line of Imperial Recruiter -> Trinket Mage -> Grindstone, which is absurdly slow, but sometimes necessary. It gains a lot of utility post-board, when there's stuff like Engineered Explosives available.

I'm not really sure i'm following the logic here. Welder adds redundancy to the combo, can be used to create a draw engine and functions well with both the thopter sword combo and transmute but isn't good because you don't want to be spending a lot of time drawing cards? :eyebrow:

[Kaono]

4-0'd weekly with Brian's SCG list with a few changes (-4 shores, -1 spellbomb +2 inventor's fair +2 lotus petal +1 Retrofitter Foundry). First time playing painter but have been trying to find the best shell for Antiquities War (tested Bomberman, Tezz, Affinity, etc). I beat Miracles 2-1, Stoneblade 2-1, Elves 2-0, and 4c Loam 2-0.

Should've definitely checked here first as there were some super suspect cards in Brian's list that I don't think I'd play again like Chrome Mox.

Anyway, just wanted to ask why people aren't playing Inventors' Fair? It's amazing in Bomberman and did well for me tonight but consensus seems to be negative for Painter.

Lastly, Retrofitter Foundry is hilarious and one of the reasons I wanted to play this specific version. 4 Trinket Mage and 3 Sai means pumping out 4/4 constructs happens pretty often. Probably just win-more but man that card is great.

[Spud911]

.
Anyway, just wanted to ask why people aren't playing Inventors' Fair? It's amazing in Bomberman and did well for me tonight but consensus seems to be negative for Painter.
Lastly, Retrofitter Foundry is hilarious and one of the reasons I wanted to play this specific version.

I too came upon this deck after monkeying with Bomberman for a while. I have tried just about every iteration of a deck with Antiquities War in it, and this one has been the most successful by far.
I will test out both of those cards and give you some feedback.

I also went through Gatherer looking for <=1 Artifacts. Here are a list of a few interesting ones.

Grafdigger's Cage - Useful against Miracles, other Snapcaster decks, Storm. Tormod's might just be better
Hope of Ghirapur - Played this in another Antiquities War deck. It protects the combo, maybe another Miracles bullet.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Used in other versions to activate Grindstone. Might be too all in for this version
Lodestone Bauble/Mishra's Bauble - More card draw, I think I would rather keep the Lotus Petal instead as a free artifact to activate Opal
Relic of Progenitus - Another Graveyard hoser. This comes with a draw effect. Prob too slow against Dredge.
Welding Jar - Protection from artifact removal.


I tired a version with Chalice and Whir, it didn't have the same velocity. I always seemed to have a Chalice out and a Grindstone in hand.

[pettdan]

I think the problem with Inventor's Fair is that you want to maximize your Sol Lands since they are extremely useful when trying to play Painter, Grindstone and doing the Grindstone activation. No Painter deck gets to play the full 8 sol lands, and that's because they need colored mana sources to function. If you want to play Inventor's Fair you then need to increase the land count of the deck, and that is probably not worth it. Also, in Bomberman there are plenty of mana sources both in terms of sol lands, Mox Opals and LED's. I think in general the deck has access to more mana in total, so activating Inventor's Fair is easier. Not least you get access to infinite mana when you assemble Salvager + LED, Painter doesn't have that. On the other hand, it's a relevant effect so it can definitely be tried.

I'm considering adding a Hangarback Walker to go with The Antiquities War. The Walker can be found by Trinket Mage and can potentially provide a ton of artifacts for The Antiquities War. It's also quite good vs Grixis decks, I imagine... But it may still be too weak.

Very interested in reading more about your testing, Spud911. Any reason why you choose mono blue (sorry if you commented already and I forgot)?

[drude1]

Inventers fair is probably fine in some lists. For example, the list that spud posted didn't use a lot of colored Mana so you could easily replace 1-2 copies of citadel, which is probably what I would do. However, if you are trying to play more Mana intensive versions of the deck such as lists with whir of invention or multi color lists (grixis, shortcake) then there probably isn't room for it for the reasons petdan posted. Also, R/W lists play some number of blood moon.
I also agree with spud that the chalice lists are not as "high velocity" as non-chalice versions. But that's the cost of playing a strong prison element. So it depends on what your play style is I think. The antiquities war win is no slower in the chalice version and in that case your opponent also can't cast their one drops. I do wonder why people are just playing preordain in that list. If you are playing blue and not playing chalice on one, there's just no reason to not play brainstorm and fetches... Even in a mono blue list.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[tired_papasmurf]

Has anyone tried combining the power-packed taste of the two Painters decks that placed highly at that one SCG event into UW? Something like the below? I like the idea of the Canonist+Copter package, and Antiquities War is just a house that turns both those cards on. Obviously without Welder the pitch to Copter isnt as good.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Tundra

3 Sai, Master Thoperist
4 Painter's Servant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Trinket Mage

4 Mox Opal

4 Grindstone
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone

4 Antiquities War
2 Thoughtcast
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

[Spud911]

tired_papasmurf
Interesting idea, might be worth testing.

Kaono
Retrofitter Foundry is not on MTGO yet, so I have not had a chance to try it. I am trying to find a copy locally so I can test it at FNM. It might be a little too cute as it doesn't do a lot without Sai in play.

I cut a Darksteel Citadel for the Inventors' Fair. I have only played a few games, but it has won me two matches where I was able to search for a combo piece on my opponents end step. Still not enough play time to determine if its good or bad.

drude1

I do wonder why people are just playing preordain in that list. If you are playing blue and not playing chalice on one, there's just no reason to not play brainstorm and fetches...
There are only 6 Basic Islands in the deck, so either you need to cut Artifact Lands or Sol lands for the Fetches. Preordain is really the best way to dig when you don't have shuffle effects.

pettdan

Very interested in reading more about your testing, Spud911. Any reason why you choose mono blue
Honestly I am not a deck builder, but I wanted to play Antiquities War in Legacy because its fun? I try just about every list that shows up on MTGTop8 with the card, and this has been by far the best for me record-wise. I also like the way it plays, I have a pretty deep card pool so I like to bring odd decks to FNM. This deck has performed extremely well.


I have not had much time to play the last few days but I am planning to play Legacy at GP Shizuoka and this is the deck that I am planning to play. So I will be making time to hammer on this deck for the next month and a half.

[CptHaddock]

Inventers fair is probably fine in some lists. For example, the list that spud posted didn't use a lot of colored Mana so you could easily replace 1-2 copies of citadel, which is probably what I would do. However, if you are trying to play more Mana intensive versions of the deck such as lists with whir of invention or multi color lists (grixis, shortcake) then there probably isn't room for it for the reasons petdan posted. Also, R/W lists play some number of blood moon.
I also agree with spud that the chalice lists are not as "high velocity" as non-chalice versions. But that's the cost of playing a strong prison element. So it depends on what your play style is I think. The antiquities war win is no slower in the chalice version and in that case your opponent also can't cast their one drops. I do wonder why people are just playing preordain in that list. If you are playing blue and not playing chalice on one, there's just no reason to not play brainstorm and fetches... Even in a mono blue list.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yes wtf, if you have access to fetchlands and dual lands why are you not playing brainstorm??? Lmfao

[drude1]

"There are only 6 Basic Islands in the deck, so either you need to cut Artifact Lands or Sol lands for the Fetches. Preordain is really the best way to dig when you don't have shuffle effects."

Play 4 island and 5 fetches and cut the citadels. Brainstorm is so much better than preordain that it would be totally worth it. Honestly, I don't even understand the citadels. You are playing those so they become 5/5 guys with antiquities war? I mean maybe to help turn on opals but that shouldn't be an issue. Why not just play more islands and not get color screwed? The original list was playing darkslick shores to have a second color for e.e.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Spud911]

Play 4 island and 5 fetches and cut the citadels. Brainstorm is so much better than preordain that it would be totally worth it. Honestly, I don't even understand the citadels. You are playing those so they become 5/5 guys with antiquities war? I mean maybe to help turn on opals but that shouldn't be an issue. Why not just play more islands and not get color screwed? The original list was playing darkslick shores to have a second color for e.e.


Actually only running two of those these days, Academy Ruins and Inventors' Fair have taken the two slots. The Citadels do come in handy for both Opal, and Antiquities War. Sometimes it makes sense to drop Antiquities War as early as turn 3 and having an extra artifact is nice to do the damage.

The deck does not really get color screwed that often, the only two blue spell is Force of Will.
The Darkslicks do allow an EE for 3 which could be handy against Choke, maybe a Blood Moon. It does not come up that often. If running Fetches it might be worth it to run 1 or 2 Underground Seas. They are Wasteland targets, but a person can always sandbag a fetch until it is needed.

Good ideas, I will add it to the list of things to try.

[Kaono]

Kaono
Retrofitter Foundry is not on MTGO yet, so I have not had a chance to try it. I am trying to find a copy locally so I can test it at FNM. It might be a little too cute as it doesn't do a lot without Sai in play.

With Sai in play it's obviously bonkers, but without Sai its floor is a Kjeldoran Outpost that scales. In grindy games it will singlehandedly take over and require an answer. It won me a game vs Miracles when I topdecked it hellbent and with no board. I think it's perfect as a one-of tutor target for Trinket Mage and am currently exploring other decks I can play it in.

Even just ignoring the 4/4 making ability with Sai the card is pretty strong:

- upfront cost of 1 mana is extremely low

- can activate it the turn it comes into play

- 2 mana to make 1/1 dudes is a good rate -- 3 mana guarantees you'll make at least 1

- instant speed so you can always "rescue" any servos about to die and turn them into thopters for 1 mana

- infinite chump blockers

- untaps itself so is an amazing mana sink lategame

Individually each piece seems rather weak/mediocre, but put them all together and the flexibility RF offers is pretty nuts. I can't think of another Trinket Mage target that is a must-answer threat just on its own.


I cut a Darksteel Citadel for the Inventors' Fair. I have only played a few games, but it has won me two matches where I was able to search for a combo piece on my opponents end step. Still not enough play time to determine if its good or bad.

Inventors' Fair is super good, it's just a matter of whether it's good in this deck. I think any high-artifact / toolbox / Antiquities War versions of the deck should definitely play it since there's close to 0 downside and the upside is uncounterable instant speed Fabricate.


Re: the brainstorm discussion: I agree completely and even just like 4 fetchlands alongside the 4 Trinket Mage is enough shuffle effects. In desperate times we can also Grindstone ourselves to clear the top.

[pettdan]

@Kaono: you sell Retrofitter Foundry quite well, even though it looks bad I'm getting a copy for testing now..

[Simonmets]

Has anyone tried combining the power-packed taste of the two Painters decks that placed highly at that one SCG event into UW? Something like the below? I like the idea of the Canonist+Copter package, and Antiquities War is just a house that turns both those cards on. Obviously without Welder the pitch to Copter isnt as good.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Tundra

3 Sai, Master Thoperist
4 Painter's Servant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Trinket Mage

4 Mox Opal

4 Grindstone
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone

4 Antiquities War
2 Thoughtcast
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

I’ve been trying a UW version also.
First big problem is having enough blue sources for force of will.
Frank Carsten says you need minimum of 13 creatures for 2 copters and 19 for 3.
I can’t get off whir of invention so that’s why it’s there. Gets around opposing chalice and instant speed catches so many people for the mill win.
I’d like to get more out of smugglers loot and maybe even intuition but I don’t know what benefits from the graveyard exist for this archetype outside welder?

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Tundra

3 Sai, Master Thoperist
4 Painter's Servant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Trinket Mage
1 walking ballista

4 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Engineered Explosives

3 whir of invention
3 Antiquities War
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 ponder
1 Meekstone

Sb
2 ensnaring bridge
1 walking ballista
2 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
1 disenchant
2 hydroblast
1 tormods crypt
3 swords to plowshares
2 ethersworn cannonist

[felipe_tardoqui]

I still trying my Grixis grind list, with some modifications.

Current List:

1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Seat of the Synod

3 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
3 Painter's Servant
1 Imperial Recruiter
2 Trinket Mage
1 Walking Ballista


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrade
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Pyroblast

1 Search for Azcanta

1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Aether Spellbomb

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Dack Fayden
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blood Moon
1 Meekstone
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle


Some reports:
4 rounds tournament (3-1)
(1-2) Merfolks
(2-0) D&T
(2-0) UW Stoneblade
(2-0) AK Miracles

6 rounds tournament (4-2)
(2-0) BG Depths
(1-2) Elves
(2-0) BR Reanimator
(2-1) D&T
(2-1) Burn
(0-2) Goblins

And I still losing for tematic creature decks. -.-!

[colo]

I played four rounds with my Grixis Painter list yesterday, and did satisfactory - matchups were UR Storm (2-0), RUG Delver (1-2), Grixis Control (2-0), Eldrazi Stompy (2-1). I've really come to appreciate the Thopter/Swords combo as a secondary win condition, with Transmute Artifact providing the flexibility required to make it work reliably, if needed. I'm considering a miser Retrofitter Foundry as a Trinket Mage target, it seems both cute and powerful :>

[tired_papasmurf]

Went 3-0 and 2-1 in two separate side events at the GP today with UW. Beat UB Shadow, Lands, Infect, Turbo Depths, and Esper Control and got beat by Junk Planeswalker NicFit.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Inventor's Fair

3 Sai, Master Thoperist
4 Trinket Mage
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Painter's Servent
1 Hope of Ghirapur

4 Grindstone
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt

3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal

4 Force of Will
4 The Antiquities War
2 Reverse Engineer

Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Divert
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Thopter Spy Network
1 Tezzeret, Artiface Master
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant

Comments about this build:
- I don't own multiple Mox Opals (I picked up a second with the winnings); I feel like those Petals should be Opals.
- The Crypt on the main is super adorable, but it actually won me G1 against Esper Control by shutting off Snapcaster for Swords in the yard. I don't know if it's actually better than the 4th Copter, but it's super good against Snapcaster and since there's so many control decks leveraging it I don't know if I want to take it out of the main.
- I never ran into trouble in terms of colored mana, and the Fair over performed IMO by getting combo pieces. Wasteland was a nightmare just because the deck's desperate to get to 4 mana and shit out its hand.
- Deck is still weak to super aggro starts, like T1 Delver, T2 Delver and flip both. But if given time to set up shop it feels amazing since every piece always felt relevant or a must-counter. This might be because I didn't naturally draw the Crypt when I didn't need it...
- This version felt like beatdown was Game Plan 1, combo/slam War was Game Plan 2
- The Trinket Mage package over performed in Game 1's in my opinion. Getting the Meekstone for Shadow, explosives to clear blockers, etc.
- I liked Reverse Engineer way better than I did Thoughtcast. The third card makes all the difference, and with the Sol Lands there was almost no way I didn't have the mana. I only cast it once over 6 games though, I never really drew them.
- Divert was my attempt to fight Hymn, and I don't know if this deck wants to be holding up the blue mana (and not advancing the board). It was a terrible late game draw, since my opponents had plenty of mana by then and Canonist incentivises them to pay for the Divert (since they cant use the rest of their mana anyway)
- That Tezzeret shouldn't be on the side; the only matchup I felt okay to bring it in was the NicFit deck. Every other one felt like it could easily attack it to death. Padeem and Thopter Spy Network were much better, since they demand answers and can't just be attacked.
- War makes me feel like I can bring the Cage in against Snapcaster Mage decks and it doesn't just feel terrible. Plus it's an easy swap to take out the Meekstone (usually).

[Michael Keller]

I’ll be running Grixis Painter (Artificer’s Intuition) at Eternal Weekend.

[JackaBo]

I’ll be running Grixis Painter (Artificer’s Intuition) at Eternal Weekend.

Sounds fantastic! Care to share?

[Michael Keller]

I can get a list posted later. I've been working on at least ten (no joke) iterations of the deck list, because it has been extremely difficult to build a strong list around the card. I've also been testing iterations with Lazav, the Multifarious with Phyrexian Dreadnought.

But the one thing I've noticed is that whenever Intuition sticks, it's incredible.

[Michael Keller]

Divert was my attempt to fight Hymn, and I don't know if this deck wants to be holding up the blue mana (and not advancing the board). It was a terrible late game draw, since my opponents had plenty of mana by then and Canonist incentivises them to pay for the Divert (since they cant use the rest of their mana anyway)


Just run Welder shenanigans with Metrognome. It's really good with The Antiquities War: 5/5 Gnome beats!

Also as an aside: Retrofitter Foundry with Welder and cards like Sai/Roterothopter/etc. can be deadly. I don't think people truly understand how some of the top decks in the format are so thin on threats. Look at Grixis Control and UB Shadow: both of those decks run hardly any creatures. Sticking that card can be incredibly good against a lot of those decks that can't push through damage.

[pettdan]

I'm also very curious about your Artificer list, Michael, any other clues you can give us? Lazav and Dreadnought, that would be wonderful... Hope to see you on coverage this weekend!

I tried to put together an Artificer list myself, to get an impression of what could be done. It (Artificer's Intuition) seems very good for finding bullets such as Ballista, Explosives and Needle. And Grindstone for the combo, obviously. And as a discard outlet for a few big artifact creatures, I was thinking of trying one each of Sundering Titan, Inkwell Leviathan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. And then I wanted a Reanimate or two, maybe a Recurring Nightmare, to get back an answered Welder or Painter, and also for recursion of Baleful Strix, and then for the occasional reanimation of those big artifact creatures. I also ran two Copters and 4 Strixes, since Welder + Copter + Strix work well together (and Copter is another discard outlet for Welding in the big artifact creatures). I also decided to go for Thoughtseize and Pyroblast for interaction spells. So... Anything reasonably close?

Hmm Expedition Map enables tutoring for lands too, that could be useful. Like Academy Ruins. I also like the idea of a Mox Opal [edit: I meant 4] and one each of the artifact lands, that way Artificer's Intuition becomes a mana fixer and you get more live late game draws.

Edit: another card I feel like trying is Phyrexian Processor. Vs combo decks and control decks this can be played as a one or two turn clock.

[Michael Keller]

I'm also very curious about your Artificer list, Michael, any other clues you can give us? Lazav and Dreadnought, that would be wonderful... Hope to see you on coverage this weekend!

I tried to put together an Artificer list myself, to get an impression of what could be done. It (Artificer's Intuition) seems very good for finding bullets such as Ballista, Explosives and Needle. And Grindstone for the combo, obviously. And as a discard outlet for a few big artifact creatures, I was thinking of trying one each of Sundering Titan, Inkwell Leviathan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. And then I wanted a Reanimate or two, maybe a Recurring Nightmare, to get back an answered Welder or Painter, and also for recursion of Baleful Strix, and then for the occasional reanimation of those big artifact creatures. I also ran two Copters and 4 Strixes, since Welder + Copter + Strix work well together. I also decided to go for Thoughtseize and Pyroblast for interaction spells. So... Anything reasonably close?

Very close.

I don't have a definitive list set yet, because there are multiple iterations I'm testing before finalizing the list for the weekend. However, my list will maximize the utility of Goblin Welder, will leverage the Painter's Servant-Grindstone combination, include some defensive components like Explosives and Meekstone and will use Planeswalkers like Daretti and even Liliana, the Last Hope. (Milling an artifact and bringing it in with Welder is really fun, as well as ticking up to take out your own Strix to provide card advantage with Welder.) Liliana also brings back Welder, Painter and Strix.

Dack Fayden is another card I'll likely play. I'm starting to believe it's probably just wrong to not play The Antiquities War in any capacity. Against any of the top decks, the card is game-winning. I am absolutely fitting in a Foundry in the list to tutor for, and will likely run a few cards to juice it up as a scary win condition.

Inkwell has been the only giant creature in the list. They're otherwise bad without Welder or Intuition, and since I'm not sure if I'm playing Faithless Looting yet, I may just keep it as a singleton with a Sundering Titan in the board. I do also think it's wise to play Pyroblast with Painter. Decks like these can be cold to Show and Tell, so having a hard-counter for it is huge without holding back for Force (assuming Painter isn't on board to pitch anything to it).

I'm also jamming Dread of Night into the board in multiples, because yeah: fuck that deck.

[pettdan]

I see, that sounds great, thanks for the clues! I've played a lot of Daretti (II) before, it's great, I try to always play one, Liliana seems fantastic too, I could never manage to fit her in though. And I agree about the Antiquities War, it seems to good not to play..

[Michael Keller]

The one card I'm keying in on is Retrofitter Foundry. If you resolve it early against any of the format's top decks, it's very tough to beat because either makes huge creatures fast, or it generates advantage over multiple turns. Consider this: If this was on the stack against you and you were playing a deck with Force of Will, would you consider countering it? The answer is likely more on the"yes" side, because you don't really need to play your hand out - just make dudes.

Also, back to Pyroblast: Back to Basics is real. Like, very real. Four maindeck Pyroblast answers fast Delvers, Back to Basics, offers protection for your key spells and stops Show and Tell. It's really too good not to play, especially with Painter. It also blows up Null Rod with a Painter in play.

[Cabs]

Really looking forward to seeing this list Michael and hearing how Eternal Weekend went for you. Love me some Artificer’s Intuition!

[Michael Keller]

Went 6-5 at Eternal Weekend. Overall, I had a lot of fun playing the deck. I drove all day yesterday and am working today, but here is a short-list of my experience trying this out:

1. Artificer's Intuition is a card that felt powerful when it resolved. It filtered a lot of dead draws (i.e. artifact lands, redundant Moxen) into utility.
2. Baleful Strix and Goblin Welder were very good.
3. The mana configuration of the list I played was flawed, and likely cost me several rounds.
4. In the situations where Intuition was in hand or resolved, I actually felt like I wanted Transmute Artifact more, believe it or not.
5. Retrofitter Foundry was incredible. Every opponent had to read it when it resolved. The problem with my deck was that it was only included as an auxiliary win-condition with Hangarback Walker and Sai, I think a more dedicated Foundry approach would be better - meaning a deck featuring its strength as opposed to tossing it in as a backup.
6. I opted for REB over Force in the deck. The reasoning behind this was to combat resolved Delvers, improve its utility with Painter as a hard-counter/vindicate (for Back to Basics and Counterbalance) and act as a hard counter to Show and Tell. In hindsight, Force - in conjunction with Blasts - would have been better.

I'm kind of shelving the Artificer's Intuition exploration for a little bit. I think it's a fun concept, and it can be competitive. The problem is that my configuration - even with rigorous testing - only batted slightly over .500. This was due in large part to confusing craftsmanship, mana misconfiguration and a deck that was trying to do too much. It wasn't bad, it was just the deck felt unstable.

[colo]

Sorry to read it didn't exactly work out for you this time. Still, I've be very curious to see the list you registered! :)

[Michael Keller]

I played in two side events and X-0ed with the deck, but more importantly than that, I tried taking notes identifying flaws with it in active competition. I was more concerned with what was wrong with it than what was right.

[Cabs]

Went 6-5 at Eternal Weekend. Overall, I had a lot of fun playing the deck. I drove all day yesterday and am working today, but here is a short-list of my experience trying this out:

Thanks Michael - are you able to share the list you did play? Did you run the Lazav package? Which planeswalkers did you run?

[Michael Keller]

Thanks Michael - are you able to share the list you did play? Did you run the Lazav package? Which planeswalkers did you run?

I'm at work now so it's hard to write it out. I did not run Lazav, and the planeswalkers I ran were 2x Daretti I.I., 1x Dack Fayden and 1x Liliana, the Last Hope.

[Cabs]

Thanks again. Any time you get to detail more about the deck, the reasoning for your choices and the games themselves would be greatly appreciated but I get that you're putting the ol' AI down for a bit

[H]

When people were mentioning running Black, I immediately thought of Mausoleum Secrets here. Thinking it over, it probably actually isn't good enough, but it was funny to imagine a two-card combo with the option of having 4x Demonic Tutor. If only it actually was.

[pettdan]

Actually Michael Keller has posted a list with Tainted Pact before so you basically can play a list with 4 instant speed Demonic Tutor. I keep trying lists too, building them, but nothing worth playtesting yet.

Looking forward to a tournament report. Unbeaten in side-events sounds very promising.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm at work now so it's hard to write it out. I did not run Lazav, and the planeswalkers I ran were 2x Daretti I.I., 1x Dack Fayden and 1x Liliana, the Last Hope.

I'm interested, can we have your list? =) And the Tainted Pact too

[Cabs]

I played a grixis Artificer's Intuition Painter list to a top4 finish at our local legacy event this weekend.

Went 3-1-1 in swiss - beating Goblins, DnT and monoR Painter, losing to Infect and drawing into top8. I then beat the same monoR Painter list in the quaters before losing to 1-2 to B/r Reanimator in the semi.

Deck seemed sweet. And I can confirm that Retrofitter Foundry is absurd :)

[8bit9mm]

Posting this here for those who haven't seen it on the Discord.

So, I've been thinking of a way to try to combine the old UR-all-in lists of yore, with the Mono-U-toolboxy list from Baltimore with Antiquities War and I've come up with this:

Land (19)
2x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
1x Flooded Strand
2x Great Furnace
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Seat of the Synod
3x Volcanic Island

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Pyroblast

Enchantment (2)
2x The Antiquities War

Artifact (12)
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Grindstone
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Tormod's Crypt

Creature (12)
2x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant
2x Sai, Master Thopterist
3x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

Sorcery (3)
3x Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrade
2x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Goblin Cratermaker
1x Meekstone
1x Pithing Needle
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt


It's kind of taking pieces from every Painter build and combining them into this horrible amalgamation of...stuff.

What I'm really looking to accomplish here is a UR list that has a viable backup plan, but still gets to play Force, Welder and Blasts. I will say that it was a little difficult to cut the Intuition, but I think it's not needed when you've got Trinket Mage.

So far from testing, I'm:
2-1: Lasav-Naught
2-0: Enchantress
2-0: Storm
2-0: Shortcake
2-1: Tin Fins
2-1: Post (colorless-green)
2-0: Eldrazi Post
0-2: Shardless
2-0: Miracles
1-0: Miracles (they timed out)
2-0: Hypergenesis
2-0: Vial Goblins
1-2: Nic Fit
1-2: Nic Fit
2-0: BW Pox
2-0: Miracles

Of course, this is all in the very competitive arena that is the MtGO Tournament Practice Room.
I plan on running through a league or two sometime this week.

The deck feels strong, though. It's nice to have a viable backup plan in UR, instead of trying to be all-in on the combo and trying to protect it.
I find a lot of times I actually won't fight over a combo piece, especially if I'm holding an Antiquities War. Hell, half the time that card finds you your combo anyways, allowing you to both threaten the combo, along with the imminent death of a bunch of 5/5 trinkets looming just around the corner.

[Simonmets]

I would have said, if you don’t have copter cut trinket mage for intuition especially if you have led.

[Kaono]

I played a grixis Artificer's Intuition Painter list to a top4 finish at our local legacy event this weekend.

Went 3-1-1 in swiss - beating Goblins, DnT and monoR Painter, losing to Infect and drawing into top8. I then beat the same monoR Painter list in the quaters before losing to 1-2 to B/r Reanimator in the semi.

Deck seemed sweet. And I can confirm that Retrofitter Foundry is absurd :)

Got a list? Sounds sweet.

[Michael Keller]

(Anecdotally, I played Retrofitter Foundry and Thopters at SCG Con and went 8-0 in two Challenges together. I can confirm the card is extremely powerful.)

[Cabs]

Got a list? Sounds sweet.

Off the top of head the list I played was:

4 Welder
4 Strix
4 Pyroblast
4 Painter
3 Grindstone
3 Artificer's Intuition
2 Dack
1 Daretti I.I
1 Sai
1 Intuition
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Pithing Needle
1 LED
4 Mox Opal
1 Ancient Tomb
5 blue fetches
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Academy Ruins
1 Inventor's Fair

[Cabs]

(Anecdotally, I played Retrofitter Foundry and Thopters at SCG Con and went 8-0 in two Challenges together. I can confirm the card is extremely powerful.)

Any chance of a list? How many Foundry did you play? How 'hard' did you go on the synergy?

[8bit9mm]

So, I played in the Community Legacy League last night on MTGO.
Went 3-1 for 3rd place with straight UR Painter.

Beat Czech Pile 2-0
Lost to Burn 0-2
Beat Sneak n Show 2-0
Beat Miracles 2-1

Decklist (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/320819903252660227/532772722220990464/unknown.png)

Probably the biggest highlight was taking a hit from Emrakul, G2 against Sneak n Show, just to come back and win with Trinket Mage and Cratermaker beats (Trinket Mage found a Needle for his Sneak Attack).

[Jaynel]

Here's what I played to a 3-0 finish and then an 0-2 finish at two local events. I beat Grixis Control (2-1), Buried Phoenix (2-0), and BG Depths (2-0). Then lost to Abzan MOST (0-2) and TES (1-2). I can go into more detail on the matches if folks are interested.

Main:
6 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

3 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere

4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

2 Trinket Mage
1 Trophy Mage

1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 The Antiquities War
3 Thoughtcast
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Spellskite
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Echoing Truth
3 Tormod's Crypt

I think this build of the archetype has some legs. It attacks on a lot of different angles. It was somewhat inspired by Brian Durkin's list that placed 6th at SCG Baltimore at the end of September 2018. However, I hated the Force of Wills and decided to take a prison-based approach instead. Landing a turn one Chalice or Sphere is just completely debilitating for a lot of decks in the format, especially when followed up with additional lock or disruption pieces. With 8 Sol Lands and 8 CMC2 lock pieces, casting one on turn 1 or 2 happens frequently. It is kinda awkward that Chalice on 1 disables casting Grindstone, but we can either just cast Grindstone first, Transmute for it, or just win on the back of our balls turning into 5/5s. I wanted the Trinket/Trophy Mage targets in the main to not suck entirely on their own (like the Tormod’s Crypt in Durkin’s list) and just do something/help me to not die to creatures. Despite aggro decks not being a huge part of my local metagame, I could definitely see a Ballista finding its way into the front 60. Retrofitter Foundry is a solid engine against control decks but pretty slow. Lots of hate for the Depths and control matchups out of the board. Current issue is not being able to close out the game quickly enough in some matchups - TES was able to build out under the Spheres and Burning Wish for Pulverize before I was able to assemble a win in one game, and was able to find the bounce for Ensnaring Bridge to swing in with ETW tokens before I could find the Painter half of the combo in the other.

Some ideas I want to pursue further with this list:
- Lotus Petal over Mox Diamond and/or Chrome Mox. Both Mox have felt very awkward sometimes and stellar at others. I think some kind of fast mana in addition to the Opals is needed to enable the real broken starts the deck can have. Could be adding 1-2 land and cutting Chrome for a 2nd Diamond.
- Cutting one or both Thirst for Knowledge. I like it in theory but I notice I board it out frequently. It just doesn’t impact the board immediately. Thoughtcast on the other hand has felt very strong but I think just the 3-of might be correct.
- Adding a maindeck Karn, Scion of Urza or Tezzeret the Seeker.
- Adding a 23rd (or even 24th) land - 4th Wasteland, Tolaria West, Inventor's Fair, Mishra’s Factory, Darksteel Citadel, etc. I think the deck may also want an additional blue source.
- Running Back to Basics in the board over Tsabo's Web
- Running Propaganda in the board somewhere
- Considerations for the Sneak/Show matchup? Seems like it could be a nightmare but I haven't played or tested against it yet.
- Off-the-wall ideas of cards that could fit somewhere in the 75: Welding Jar, Sculpting Steel, Myr Welder, Mind Stone, Zuran Orb, Uba Mask, Telemin Performance, Basilisk Collar, Sword of X/Y (Fire/Ice, Body/Mind, or Feast/Famine are probably strongest - just can't name any Sword colors with Painter. Often don't name blue anyways to not help OP cast Force of Will)

[pettdan]

Very interesting! Yes, I'd like to read details about the matches if you find time to write it down.

[Jaynel]

Very interesting! Yes, I'd like to read details about the matches if you find time to write it down.

Yeah sure. I'm still experimenting with how to SB in different matchups but it's fairly straightforward. I most often cut Thirsts and trim on Transmute Artifact, Painter, and the misc tutorable artifacts in control matchups and cut Thirst and trim The Antiquities War and the weaker tutorable artifacts vs combo and aggro (maybe not right, TAW is kind of a guaranteed albeit slow path to victory)

Grixis Control (2-1)
G1: I had an opening with the Painter combo and a Chalice against an unknown opponent. I lead with Grindstone and follow up with Chalice on 1 and Painter. Opponent doesn't do much, fetches some duals and cantrips before we go to game 2.
G2: I board out the Ensnaring Bridge and Aether Spellbomb. An early Gurmag Angler, along with some Ancient Tomb hits, kills me before I can do anything relevant. Still think these are the correct cards to board out.
G3: I'm able to drop multiple Spheres and Chalice along with a Wasteland that my opponent fetches basics around. There are some shenanigans with Retrofitter Foundry and I get to a 4/4 Construct before a Strix comes down. Sorcerous Spyglass reveals a Creeping Tar Pit along with 3 and 4 CMC spells. I name his Scalding Tarn in play (his 3rd land) and my opponent deflates. 5/5s kill him a few turns later.

Buried Phoenix (2-0)
The lock pieces come down before the discard and my opponent never really gets going in either game.

BG "Slow" Depths (2-0)
G1: I have an opener with Grindstone and Chalice. I rip the Painter and my opponent doesn't have the Abrupt Decay in time.
G2: I get a Trinisphere down early as my opponent durdles with Dark Confidant and Tireless Tracker but can't play many spells. Painter keeps Bob from coming in for quite a few turns. The Antiquities War finds Sorcerous Spyglass and Chalice before an Echoing Truth clears a blocker and the 5/5s come in.

Abzan MOST (0-2)
G1: The game gets very drawn out with lock pieces. I kinda fumble under his Thalia combined with my own Sphere of Resistance. We eventually get to a point where I'm at 6 with my opponent on Thalia, Recruiter of the Guard, Knight of Autumn, and Quasali Pridemage. I have Painter and Grindstone in play but can't find the right time to activate it, trying to play around Abrupt Decay and Swords, completely missing the Pridemage on board. I scoop it up after I activate Grindstone and Pridemage takes out my Painter - however, perhaps prematurely, as I also had TAW ticking up to ultimate the next turn and could have survived his attack for 5 and maybe activated Grindstone after forcing blocks.
G2: I keep a hand that doesn't do much but has a couple Wastelands. Opponent has a land heavy hand and I never draw out of my weak opener before he untaps with a Fauna Shaman and I scoop it up.

TES (1-2)
G1: I have a couple of Spheres, but no Chalice, along with a Grindstone and Retrofitter Foundry in play. I think I have all the time in the world and I'm waiting on a Painter or second blue source to Transmute for my Painter. Opponent is very slowly playing out lands, fetching basics, and casting cantrips for 3 mana. Eventually they have enough mana to cast a threshed Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish for Pulverize, wipe my board, and follow up with 0cmc artifacts and ETW.
G2: I have an early Chalice on 0 and Painter/Grindstone. Opponent is forced to use two bounce spells on Painter and shows a hand of double Chrome Mox, double LED, Burning Wish after the Grindstone finally connects.
G3: Opponent makes an quick Empty the Warrens but I dump my hand early and have the Ensnaring Bridge. I end up taking one swing, and Tombs are quickly chipping away at my life total as I cast every topdeck to keep my hand empty (including a TFK and a Thoughtcast! :eek:). I have the Grindstone but can't find the Painter or Transmute before opponent finally finds the Echoing Truth for any of my permanents (they chose the Bridge).

In playtesting some matches against UR Delver, I found that the deck struggles with early creature threats and my fears were also realized in the match against MOST. So I think some SB slots may need to be further directed towards aggro and maybe away from Depths. I don't necessarily think the TES matchup is bad (certainly not as good as ANT) but I think some way of closing the game out quickly might be needed. Losing game 1 felt so bad. Sometimes they just get the better side of variance though.

Like I said above, I think the 2 Thirsts should get cut, probably in favor of the 23rd land (4th Wasteland), cut Chrome Mox for the 2nd Mox Diamond (I think 23 land should be enough to support 2 Diamond), and adding a Tezz or Karn maindeck. Tezz seems like he closes the game quickly by either tutoring up the missing combo piece or animating your board. I also like maybe upping the Ballista count in the side or cutting Aether Spellbomb, Retrofitter Foundry, or Crucible of Worlds for a Ballista in the main. Crucible never came up in any matches, I think Trophy Mage got it once but was never cast. Spellbomb got cycled once. Foundry was medium, nothing amazing, and got locked out by Chalice a few times. Trophy Mage was also pretty meh, I think it chump blocked once against MOST.

Edit: Going forward, I'll try the following changes: -2 Thirst, -1 Trophy Mage, -1 Crucible, -1 Chrome Mox, +1 Tezzeret the Seeker, +1 Trinket Mage, +1 Wasteland, +1 Walking Ballista, +1 Mox Diamond.

[colo]

I've been on a Grixis list with Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek as an alternative win conditon, and I like that approach quite much. The trio of Transmute Artifact gives nice flexibility to find either missing part of one of the two combos, and also a variety of matchup-specific silver bullets.


1 Badlands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

1 Misdirection
3 Ponder
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Pyroblast

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
4 Grindstone

1 Trinket Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Imperial Recruiter
4 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant



In another deck of mine and while spectating other players, I was very impressed with the performance Ethersworn Canonist puts up, and I was thinking that I might want to abandon B, and go for W instead. That would make me swap out Underground Sea and Badlands for Tundra and Plateau, and go for Canonist over Baleful Strix. Now I'm not sure how that would work out in practice, but I know that Canonist does great work in other Painter lists (Strawberry Shortcake). Since I rarely find myself chaining cantrips to frantically dig for stuff, I was wondering if anyone of you had any experience with Canonist in a more controlling, cantrip-heavy shell - can it work? Or, if you've never tried - do you think it could work?

[schweinefettmann]

I feel like your list is doing a bit too much that isn't just trying to kill the opponent. There's not so much disruption, and a multitude of different strategies to the win. It'd definitely grind out many decks though, so maybe that's the best way forward for your list. is transmute artifact worth the insane monetary cost?

I've been trying to get together a mono U painter list using tezeret, thopter-sword, the antiquities war as an alternate wincon. i've been considering the transmute artifact and/or whir of invention, but the money problem with transmute artifact is a real thing for me. Would you say that i should save up for city of traitors first or the transmute artifact?

Edit: I like the thopter sword as a plan B-wincon, even though it makes your mana pretty ropey. I think canonist is probably good, as you can then also splash a mom and swords too.
To be honest, having messed around with your list online, yours is much better than mine. It's generally more hateful and flexible, somehow. I think mine ended up being similar to painter splash miracles, so it's good as long as my opponent doesn't end up landing anything into play.
those transmute artefacts you have are really good. I wish i had the dough for the set of 3!

[Hisa]

So I still go back to this deck pretty much every time I think it gets a new toy, and, boy, does Karn count as a new toy. I am 11-5 over the last three leagues plus a match with it, and two or three of those losses being significant player error and rust. There is a lot still in flux in the main, and the board is a complete mess, but the deck feels strong against everything I played against.

I have gotten punished a few match by main deck artifact hate (K command and Abrade), but that seems like its part of the inbred MTGO meta. Maybe (hopefully) it will calm down after the Karn madness dies down.

The list:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix
2 Sai, Master Thopterist

4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Force of Will

2 Search for Azcanta

3 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Karn, the Great Creator



SB:

1 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Walking Ballista


I kinda want more "value" cards to grab with Karn out of the board. The silver bullets are good, but there a lot of times where I want to grab something like Retrofitter Foundry that's going to put me ahead on the board in long grindy games. Liquimetal Coating or another Chopper or something maybe.

This list still feels really unpolished (3 FoW main, kill me), but even rough, its doing great work.

[schweinefettmann]

There was someone I saw who ran thopter/sword as well as painter stone combo to wish for. Not sure if that’s something good for value for ya.

Liquimetal coating is very good off the wish. Just shutting down a jace for a turn has been good. Then you can start nuking lands one at a time after that.

One thing, if you find your guys being hard to protect, i run earnest fellowship and Hanna’s custody, if you want more reason to go white. HC is great, but EF shuts down mom and other dnt irritants.

Also, have u tested the new painter-safe sweeper? It’s 2rw, and each creature hits itself. Kills TNN, and a host of other irritants to your game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vnayin]

Top 8ed CardKingdom's 1K this past weekend and 3-0-1ed the Monday night weekly as well(rd4 opponent needed to leave so split with him) with a more cantrip heavy, artifact light build of UR painter. The idea of the deck was to use more of a sneak and show kind of shell, but get to try and maximize the value of Karn and play a tighter combo to allow for more countermagic main.

Decklist:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21997&d=348450&f=LE

main change I made after the 1K is going to 3 volcs by cutting an island as I ran into some problems finding red at the 1K. Might want room for the 3rd city somewhere too.

At the 1K played against BUG delver with stifles and sinkholes(2-0 win), Slow Depths(Loss 1-2) though I probably punted game 2, BW walker Dead Guy(2-1), Planeswalker Post(2-0), Elves(2-1), then lost 2 close games to Miracles in the top 8(one game I drew all 4 islands natually and lost a counterfight with pyro in hand and no red mana).

At the weekly, played vs BUG land control on camera if you want to watch the match, Goblins, UW stoneblade and drew with RUG but we played 1 game and I lost.

Overall, the deck felt great. Probably a turn slower on average than something like SnT, but with more grind power and general more protection for the combo. Sometimes Karn has felt a little clunky, which is why I kinda want another sol land if I can find room.

[schweinefettmann]

wait did i see that right? 4 miracles in the top 8???

that's one of the reasons i struggle to not have at least 6 blasts in the 75. But the power of cantrips are so high that it really starts to squeze them out.

Good work representin'! Aside from speeding up the mana, is there any other changes you'd be considering? you're playing 5 basics, presumably all those miracles lists run BTB. Did you ever feel like you needed a blood moon? Or maybe basics are so rampant it doesn't really stop their games anyways.

[merfolkotpt]

Top 8ed CardKingdom's 1K this past weekend and 3-0-1ed the Monday night weekly as well(rd4 opponent needed to leave so split with him) with a more cantrip heavy, artifact light build of UR painter. The idea of the deck was to use more of a sneak and show kind of shell, but get to try and maximize the value of Karn and play a tighter combo to allow for more countermagic main.

Decklist:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21997&d=348450&f=LE

main change I made after the 1K is going to 3 volcs by cutting an island as I ran into some problems finding red at the 1K. Might want room for the 3rd city somewhere too.

At the 1K played against BUG delver with stifles and sinkholes(2-0 win), Slow Depths(Loss 1-2) though I probably punted game 2, BW walker Dead Guy(2-1), Planeswalker Post(2-0), Elves(2-1), then lost 2 close games to Miracles in the top 8(one game I drew all 4 islands natually and lost a counterfight with pyro in hand and no red mana).

At the weekly, played vs BUG land control on camera if you want to watch the match, Goblins, UW stoneblade and drew with RUG but we played 1 game and I lost.

Overall, the deck felt great. Probably a turn slower on average than something like SnT, but with more grind power and general more protection for the combo. Sometimes Karn has felt a little clunky, which is why I kinda want another sol land if I can find room.

I have been looking at a list pretty similar to yours of late, any consideration to grim monolith in the list for easier to hit karn? Also, I notice you aren't running any welder, just don't like it or?

I really like the list.

[Megadeus]

Dunno if this is the correct thread this deck, but it might get more eyes here. And at the end of the day it's still a Painter deck. Just went 3-1 with this at a local. Deck felt pretty absurd.

The Painter's War:

Maindeck (60)
3 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Echo of Eons
1 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
3 Defense Grid
4 The Antiquities War
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Island
4 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard (15)
1 Painter's Servant
2 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grindstone
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice


I'm not completely sold on Chalices in the board. Maybe there's an argument for leylines with a couple helms somewhere too. I'm not sure yet.

I think I'm going to try out a couple Urzas. Maybe over trinket mage and an Antiquities War. It helps beat opposing Karns by still allowing your artifacts to make Mana and can make a big fatty to disincentivize attacks

[painhomoser]

Current using this monoR goblins version, testing it IRL.
I don't miss imperial recruiter at all.

engineer its just too good to tutor.

thoughts???


5 mountain
3 Great Furnace
4 ancient tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 city of traitors
2 Cavern of Souls

4 Goblin Welder
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Painter Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 pyroblast
4 red elemental blast
4 faithless looting

3 blood moon
3 blood sun
3 Karn, the Great Creator

sideboard

4 Leyline of the void
2 abrade
3 sulfur elemental
1 ensnaring bridge
1 mycossint lattice
1 painter servant
1 grindstone
1 spellskite
1 helm of obedience
1 Racthet bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Liquimetal Coating

[Darklingske]

Your list looks good. But since it's mono-R, you better post it in the Imperial Painter thread. It can get a bit confusing, but for clarity: Shortcake = WR Painter, Imperial= mono R, Painter stone = UR Painter :)

[Mirrislegend]

Dunno if this is the correct thread this deck, but it might get more eyes here. And at the end of the day it's still a Painter deck. Just went 3-1 with this at a local. Deck felt pretty absurd.

The Painter's War:

Maindeck (60)
3 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Echo of Eons
1 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
3 Defense Grid
4 The Antiquities War
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Island
4 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard (15)
1 Painter's Servant
2 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grindstone
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice


I'm not completely sold on Chalices in the board. Maybe there's an argument for leylines with a couple helms somewhere too. I'm not sure yet.

I think I'm going to try out a couple Urzas. Maybe over trinket mage and an Antiquities War. It helps beat opposing Karns by still allowing your artifacts to make Mana and can make a big fatty to disincentivize attacks

You are a madman! I love it. Are you on the Discord for Painter? This needs to be shared there. I'll do it if you can't.

[Megadeus]

You are a madman! I love it. Are you on the Discord for Painter? This needs to be shared there. I'll do it if you can't.

I'm not on there but you're welcome to share. I'd love feedback. Deck feels like there's something there but more ideas can only help

[bruizar]

Posted this in the SCD. Interested in feedback from other painter players.

Summer Painter

2x Faithless Looting
3x Goblin Welder
4x Painter’s Servant
3x Grindstone
4x Karn, the Great Creator
4x Pyroblast
4x Veil of Summer
3x Punishing Fire
4x Wrenn and Six
4x Mox Diamond
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Wasteland
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Taiga
3x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
2x Great Furnace

Sideboard:
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Force of Vigor
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Magmatic Sinkhole
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Grindstone

[Nouille]

First legit opportunity to play compost ! You have to squeeze it in the 75 ! The maindeck looks solid. I'd probably look for some space to add green sun zenith and compost. Maybe faithless can go. The board needs some adjustments I think. Not super sold on force of vigor nor helm combo.

[bruizar]

First legit opportunity to play compost ! You have to squeeze it in the 75 ! The maindeck looks solid. I'd probably look for some space to add green sun zenith and compost. Maybe faithless can go. The board needs some adjustments I think. Not super sold on force of vigor nor helm combo.

If we remove the forces of vigor we can add +1 compost +1 ancient grudge.


Then, there's 4 slots with helmline which I think is redundant indeed. 2 of those slots should go to graveyard hate (could be surgical extraction), and 2 could be flex, perhaps another Compost or a Reap, and something else like a Blast?

Could also be a Chainwhirler, Abrade, Sulfur Elemental, Goblin Engineer, Spellskite, or even a Pulse of Murasa to grab back a Painter and gain life against Burn, or the new uncounterable Chandra to have an alternative clock, but I think the deck is already good against control.. Not sure what we the bad matchups are..

[Wordslinger]

After playing a league with megadeus list, i can confirm that the chalices are not good and should probably be replaced with bounce spells or something.
Im gonna try some hydroblast too. Will continue to report.

[thefreakaccident]

I see some people running defense grids in here. Would Teferi time raveler be a possible include?

[Wordslinger]

Maybe, freak accident. The reservations id have with running TTR are the lack of sources of white right now, and more importantly that its another spell that cant be cast off a sol land.

Both of those issue are fixable with arcums astrolabe, which opens up a LOT of options (some of which may even be good!)

[Megadeus]

After playing a league with megadeus list, i can confirm that the chalices are not good and should probably be replaced with bounce spells or something.
Im gonna try some hydroblast too. Will continue to report.

Curious to how the testing is going. I'll be playing tomorrow with my list -1 trinket mage, -1 Antiquities War, +2 Urza. Chalices probably will become echoing truth or dismembers

[Wordslinger]

I played another league and changed the chalices for 2 echoing truth, 1 hydroblast, 1 walking ballista. The 1 of hydroblast has gotten 2 pyroblasts already, so thats nice. I haven't used the echoing truths or the ballista yet, mainly because there's so much delver.
I have no idea what I'm supposed to do sideboarding against some of this stuff either. I'm probably overboarding a bit.
I should also mention that the maindeck is -1 mox opal, - 1 trinket mage, + 2 urza at this point (urza has been great)

[Megadeus]

I played another league and changed the chalices for 2 echoing truth, 1 hydroblast, 1 walking ballista. The 1 of hydroblast has gotten 2 pyroblasts already, so thats nice. I haven't used the echoing truths or the ballista yet, mainly because there's so much delver.
I have no idea what I'm supposed to do sideboarding against some of this stuff either. I'm probably overboarding a bit.
I should also mention that the maindeck is -1 mox opal, - 1 trinket mage, + 2 urza at this point (urza has been great)
Yeah that was my problem last well, especially when I had chalice. Had no clue what to take out. I was just shaving numbers of Thirst and Trinket Mage. The more I think about blue blast the more I like it. Counters naturally some problematic stuff like KCommand and Abrades and red blasts. Also with painter out can answer any permanent we deem problematic.

[Wordslinger]

Another league this morning, thoughts:
I want a couple copies of padeem in the board to fight abrades and decays and recsages and such, maybe in the walking ballista slot idk.

I'm thinking even harder about astrolabe, both to fix the issues from sol-land/narset/mox opal/island draws and to provide extra artifacts to fuel the replacement of thirst for knowlege with thoughtcast.

I also made the mistake of playing another league without hydroblast, which is not a mistake im going to make again.

[Megadeus]

Another league this morning, thoughts:
I want a couple copies of padeem in the board to fight abrades and decays and recsages and such, maybe in the walking ballista slot idk.

I'm thinking even harder about astrolabe, both to fix the issues from sol-land/narset/mox opal/island draws and to provide extra artifacts to fuel the replacement of thirst for knowlege with thoughtcast.

I also made the mistake of playing another league without hydroblast, which is not a mistake im going to make again.
You think Thoughtcast is better than the ability to discard Echo off of Thirst? I hadn't thought of Thought cast.

[CptHaddock]

Why are you not playing brainstorm and fetchlands in your blue combo deck that has so much clunk???????????????????

[Megadeus]

Why are you not playing brainstorm and fetchlands in your blue combo deck that has so much clunk???????????????????

No free shuffle effects is pretty rough. Not much room for fetches because of the seats and the Sol lands.

My friend said maybe I should cut seat of the synod's and try to fit in Astrolabes.

[Megadeus]

3-0 tonight with the list -1 Trinket Mage, -1 Antiquities War, +2 Urza; -4 Chalice, -1 Pithing Needle, +2 Into the Roil (store was out of echoing truth), +3 Hydroblast.

Round 1 UB Delver Control Thing
Game 1: Him Island go. Me tomb into painter on red. Him delta go. Me tomb cast Grindstone. He pushes in response. Cast LED. Cast 2nd painter. Resolves and I win.
Game 2: Delver go. Me Tomb, petal, petal, defense grid. Him no flip and attack. Me island Thirst for Knowledge. Him Narset, impulse for brainstorm and pass. Me, island, Narset, into the Roil his Narset, use mine to find echo and do it with LED. He draws 1. I can't remember what I draw but I echo again so he draws none. Winning from there a turn or 2 later was trivial.

Round 2: Lands
Game 1: he exploration to second land and pass. I go Petal, Opal, LED, land into Narset hoping for echo. Don't hit it. Turn 2 he plays Depths, stage, makes Lage. Fuck I think I'm dead. Draw second LED, impulse for echo. Break both LED, and use second land to echo with 4 Mana floating. Get lucky and hit Karn + LED. Karn, LED, opal, break LED, get bridge and play it. Next turn flash back an echo from the grave and winning is trivial.
Game 2: he goes diamond, diamond, land, exploration, cycles land and pass. I think I just drop defense grid and fast Mana. He draws into loam and depths but no stage. I think I turn 3 him with Urza and echo and stuff I don't really remember. I do remember playing Karn and getting Painter + Stone and led. He goes to use his diamond to pay for defense grid but I inform him of Karns static ability.

Round 3: Jund Loam Wren & 6
Game 1: i don't remember that well, just that he had 2 bayou and Dryad arbor out. I think I had a turn 3 Narset + echo and he didn't do much.
Game 2: he mulls to 5 and turn 1's Bob. I keep a slow hand. Bob reveals teeg. Fuck. He gets teeg and Bob. I have my into the Roil for teeg but I don't draw a 3rd land Until super late and teeg and Bob beat me to death.
Game 3. I go City of traitors, painter, petal, opal, grindstone and pass. He says fuck. Breathes sigh of relief on his draw. Diamond, land, decay my painter. I untap, sacrifice petal, use opal, and my only lands, City into turn 2 Urza. He wastes me, plays W&6 and gets waste back. I use opal, grindstone, and construct to thirst. Find LED and land plus echo. Go LED, Opal, float two blue off of them with Urza ability, crack LED and echo. Draw 7. Sol Land, LED, Petal, Cast Karn instead of Narset or thirst. Use Karn on his diamond and pass. He untaps. Plays teeg and says if I show him painter in my board to wish for he'll scoop. I show and he does.

Deck felt insane. Non blue decks can't keep up. I need to test against more blue decks though. Hydroblast was never relevant for me unfortunately. Into the Roil was solid though. Glad I added those. Didn't miss Chalice. Urza was very good. I think 2 is a good #. I'll maybe write up an Astrolabe list to see how it looks. I'm not really sure about it, but turn 1 Astrolabe into turn 2 Tomb Narset seems pretty sweet.

[Daize]

Interesting writeup :-) I'd like to know how it fares against blue decks as well. You have some CA, but otherwise I wonder how you'd get your keys on the board without protection & inevitably going into top-deck mode.

[Megadeus]

Interesting writeup :-) I'd like to know how it fares against blue decks as well. You have some CA, but otherwise I wonder how you'd get your keys on the board without protection & inevitably going into top-deck mode.
So far in some limited testing it's just a fairly heavy deck. A lot of need to answer cards for blue decks. Defense Grid obviously plays a part in creating openings when it resolves. It's probably the number 1 thing to have and I've debated playing 4. Might be worth a fourth in the board. Also Narset and Karn both are very good against control if not completely back breaking in certain situations. Antiquities War digs deep twice which is nice card advantage against control and can threaten to win the game on it's own as well. Urza brings a big dummy with him and threatens a serious Mana advantage as well as his activated ability. Painter and stone obviously threaten to simply win the game. And echo of eons can dig you out of tough situations and provide a jump start. It's also very reasonably hard castable in this deck and that can be a need to counter twice card at times. Just being able get on board so quickly means you can get under most non Force answers too and quickly establish a difficult to answer board. Honestly permanent based hate is the worst for me since it's often much more difficult to answer and static abilities make life tough. Opposing Narset I probably one of the scariest cards since I have no way to really pressure it outside of random painter beats

[CptHaddock]

No free shuffle effects is pretty rough. Not much room for fetches because of the seats and the Sol lands.

My friend said maybe I should cut seat of the synod's and try to fit in Astrolabes.

I really don't think it would be hard to fit in brainstorm + fetchlands in your list (high tide plays 6 I think?). You're playing a lot of mana and high cmc cards and I imagine there are going to be a lot of hands where you want the ability to exchange mana/high cmc for whatever you are looking for. You're giving up some explosiveness but the consistency you are getting out of it is well worth the exchange.

Astrolabe seems way more awkward since you actually need to have snow mana to cast it and you only have 6 sources with no way to find them.

[Megadeus]

I really don't think it would be hard to fit in brainstorm + fetchlands in your list (high tide plays 6 I think?). You're playing a lot of mana and high cmc cards and I imagine there are going to be a lot of hands where you want the ability to exchange mana/high cmc for whatever you are looking for. You're giving up some explosiveness but the consistency you are getting out of it is well worth the exchange.

Astrolabe seems way more awkward since you actually need to have snow mana to cast it and you only have 6 sources with no way to find them.

Agreed on Astrolabe. It would require a complete retooling of the Mana base. Not sure it's worth it. As for Brainstorm it's possibly worth it. Just lowering the artifact count isn't super great to me though. And like Astrolabe would require the Mana base to change a bit.

Am I crazy for wanting to try hibernation? Like it's randomly good against green decks course, but when you have a painter out naming green it's a straight up instant speed 3 Mana Upheaval. And this deck plays a ton of fast Mana to recover quickly. You also can break LED's while holding priority and use them to recast your hand

[Daize]

So far in some limited testing it's just a fairly heavy deck. A lot of need to answer cards for blue decks. Defense Grid obviously plays a part in creating openings when it resolves. It's probably the number 1 thing to have and I've debated playing 4. Might be worth a fourth in the board. Also Narset and Karn both are very good against control if not completely back breaking in certain situations. Antiquities War digs deep twice which is nice card advantage against control and can threaten to win the game on it's own as well. Urza brings a big dummy with him and threatens a serious Mana advantage as well as his activated ability. Painter and stone obviously threaten to simply win the game. And echo of eons can dig you out of tough situations and provide a jump start. It's also very reasonably hard castable in this deck and that can be a need to counter twice card at times. Just being able get on board so quickly means you can get under most non Force answers too and quickly establish a difficult to answer board. Honestly permanent based hate is the worst for me since it's often much more difficult to answer and static abilities make life tough. Opposing Narset I probably one of the scariest cards since I have no way to really pressure it outside of random painter beats

I love TAW, I may give this a shot :-). Thanks for sharing. It looks exciting albeit cute, but then again: Narset and EoE always does. how do you handle null rod / Hurkyl's Recall?

[Megadeus]

I love TAW, I may give this a shot :-). Thanks for sharing. It looks exciting albeit cute, but then again: Narset and EoE always does. how do you handle null rod / Hurkyl's Recall?

Null Rod/Karn are a problem. Urza allows you to still make Mana through these effects which helps out a lot. Also Antiquities War let's you simply make a bunch of men and attack. As for Hurkylls it's not really something you can play around too well. Luckily most of your artifacts are cheap and can be played out quickly but the card could be an issue. Luckily it's not super heavily played. Same with Null Rod. Karn can be attacked which helps

[Wordslinger]

I typed up a whole thing that got wrecked when i timed out. the tldr is that i played 4 leagues over the last 2 days and have a 13-7 record over that time frame with an astrolabe/thoughtcast list.

[pettdan]

I typed up a whole thing that got wrecked when i timed out. the tldr is that i played 4 leagues over the last 2 days and have a 13-7 record over that time frame with an astrolabe/thoughtcast list.

Can relate to that, I recommend writing in some notes program/application that doesn't reload randomly.

[Wordslinger]

okay uhhh PSA:
One of the things you can do with Hibernation against permanent based hate is you can put the combo into play naming green with painter, then cast hibernation holding priority to float mana from led to use to recast the combo.
I just did this against rest in peace, so..yeah.

[Megadeus]

okay uhhh PSA:
One of the things you can do with Hibernation against permanent based hate is you can put the combo into play naming green with painter, then cast hibernation holding priority to float mana from led to use to recast the combo.
I just did this against rest in peace, so..yeah.

Yeah turning led into lotus with hibernation on the stack is pretty insane. I love

[tired_papasmurf]

I just did this against rest in peace, so..yeah.

You know RIP doesnt stop the combo, right? But 3 Mana Upheaval sounds hilarious

[Megadeus]

You know RIP doesnt stop the combo, right? But 3 Mana Upheaval sounds hilarious

I think he's referencing LED + Echo of Eons?

[Wordslinger]

No I used the "hibernate combo" to play through a piece of hate i didn't need to ><.

fwiw, current list.

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 polluted delta
6 island

3 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 arcums astrolabe
3 mox opal
1 chrome mox

3 defense grid
3 grindstone
3 painters servant

4 Echo of eons
4 Narset, parter of veils
3 Thoughtcast
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for knowledge

2 Karn the great creator
2 The antiquities war
2 Urza's lord high artificer

sideboard is in flux, but rn
1 lions eye diamond
1 painters servant
1 lion's eye diamond
2 tormods crypt
1 sorcerers spyglass
1 ensnaring bridge
2 tezzeret the schemer
3 hydroblast
2 hibernation
1 echoing truth

[Megadeus]

No I used the "hibernate combo" to play through a piece of hate i didn't need to ><.

fwiw, current list.

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 polluted delta
6 island

3 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 arcums astrolabe
3 mox opal
1 chrome mox

3 defense grid
3 grindstone
3 painters servant

4 Echo of eons
4 Narset, parter of veils
3 Thoughtcast
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for knowledge

2 Karn the great creator
2 The antiquities war
2 Urza's lord high artificer

sideboard is in flux, but rn
1 lions eye diamond
1 painters servant
1 lion's eye diamond
2 tormods crypt
1 sorcerers spyglass
1 ensnaring bridge
2 tezzeret the schemer
3 hydroblast
2 hibernation
1 echoing truth

Fwiw it's understandable. When I played dead guy I boarded in RIP against painter because I thought it would stop the combo plus turn off their welders. Let me know how you like thought cast. I'll be on my thirsts at least this weekend because binning echo is important to me. I like Astrolabe a lot and I think I'll be testing it in the future too. Tomorrow however I think I'm gonna be on something close to my OG list. Maybe with a couple hibernation though

[Megadeus]

3-0 double draw into top 8 today and lost in T8. Match I lost to food chain I needed to draw an LED off of Narset to activate grindstone and didn't get there and he killed me next turn despite having to brainstorm into Narset. Rough beats. He had Force for my Grid, needle on Grindstone, and RIP game 2. My echo after I bounced RIP Drew 5 lands and a petal and I died.

[Grumpollion]

So, Emry, Lurker of the Loch (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Throne+of+Eldraine+Promos/Emry+Lurker+of+the+Loch#paper) can provide infinite mana as early as turn 2 with some number of Mox Opals, Mox Ambers, and a Paradox Engine.

Would this slot into Painter-Stone well?

[tired_papasmurf]

So, Emry, Lurker of the Loch (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Throne+of+Eldraine+Promos/Emry+Lurker+of+the+Loch#paper) can provide infinite mana as early as turn 2 with some number of Mox Opals, Mox Ambers, and a Paradox Engine.

Would this slot into Painter-Stone well?

Jeskai Ascendacy or bust

[Megadeus]

Jeskai Ascendacy or bust

Yeah Ascendancy is infinite as well and costs half the Mana. That or Mirran Spy. With opals, petals, and maybe even Astrolabes in this theoretical list, I think it's not a problem to cast it. It also simply makes your Emry and infinitely large attacker or digs to find a win condition as well

[UnOrthodox Bird]

Dunno if this is the correct thread this deck, but it might get more eyes here. And at the end of the day it's still a Painter deck. Just went 3-1 with this at a local. Deck felt pretty absurd.

The Painter's War:

Maindeck (60)
3 Painter's Servant
1 Trinket Mage
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Echo of Eons
1 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
3 Defense Grid
4 The Antiquities War
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Island
4 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard (15)
1 Painter's Servant
2 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grindstone
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice


I'm not completely sold on Chalices in the board. Maybe there's an argument for leylines with a couple helms somewhere too. I'm not sure yet.

I think I'm going to try out a couple Urzas. Maybe over trinket mage and an Antiquities War. It helps beat opposing Karns by still allowing your artifacts to make Mana and can make a big fatty to disincentivize attacks

Hey Megadeus, have you made any updates/played this list more? I am looking to pick it up for fun and wanted your opinions on it. I already did the swap you mentioned a few posts later to add 2 Urza to the list.

[Hisa]

So, as I've been posting about on the Discord, I've been messing around with an 8 Welder + Emry list. I'm only three leagues in, and the list is still super rough, but I've been really happy with it.

Rough Cut:

Deck: Emry Painter.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:14
4 Goblin Welder
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Painter's Servant
3 Emry, Lurker of the Loch

Spells:27
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Brainstorm
3 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Lands:19
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
1 Painter's Servant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
1 Grindstone
1 Pyroblast
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice