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TheProfessor
04-17-2011, 05:40 AM
PRIMER U/R Painter

I. Overview/Author Notes

I.a Design Evolution
I.b Side History
II. Strategy/Variants

II.a How does the main combo work?
II.b Caleb Durward Variant
II.c Noham Maubert Variant
III. The Deck (Caleb Durward Variant)

III.a Combo
III.b Tutors/Draw
III.c Accelerants
III.d Protection
III.e Lands
III.f Variant Decklists
III.g Other notes and Observations
IV. Meta Choice Slots
V. Side Board Options
VI. Additional Notes and Rules (Common Judge Questions for this deck)
VII. Play Notes
VIII. VS Decks

VIII.a AGGRO

Merfolk
Goblins
Zoo
Affinity
Dredge
Rock/Junk
VIII.b CONTROL

Counter Balance
Landstill
MUD/Forgemaster
Burn/RDW/Angry Red
Death and Taxes (Green and White Variants)
VIII.c COMBO

Enchantress
Sneak Attack/Show Tell
Doomsday
Charbelcher
ANT/TES
Cephalid Breakfast
Aluren
VIII.d UNIQUE

Maverick
Elves (combo/Aggro)
Reanimator
Team America
NO Bant or Bant Aggro
Post Eldrazi Ramp
VIV. Situational Analysis (Requires a Judge for clarification on these)
XX. Reading Materials/ References


Acknowledgements:
Caleb Durward -- Thanks for designing this deck and wonderful articles.
PanderAlexander -- Alexander Kwan -- Thank you for your inputs and posts.
Ivanpei -- Thank you for your inputs.
Sloshthedark-- Thanks for the inputs.


Eagles Nest -- Legacy with you guys continues to be a blast. I believe our meta is the most diverse, containing nearly every Legacy Deck available. Because of this I was able to taste every possible combination/hybrid/strategy in legacy.

Chardso-- Thanks for lending me the cards initially bro. Could not have made this without ya.


I would like to make it clear that I am in no way responsible for the creation of current U/R Painter Servant deck. I am just a Legacy analyst and Deck Theorist.



I. Overview/Author Notes

The Painter’s Servant and Grindstone combination has been around for a very long time. It is probably one of the few combos’ that is still being utilized in Vintage environments today.

However in the current legacy environment there are successful deck variants that try to utilize this combo using various colour shells such as Mono W or R there are others that utilize a U/R/W or W/B or U/R shell with some on and off success.

In the past year and a half I have been reading, observing, testing and researching various Painter Grindstone decks that could optimally challenge most of the legacy Meta. My own personal designs have lead me to mono U, R, U and even combination designs such as U/R, W/R painter variants.


I.a Design Evolution

The Painter/Grindstone combination itself is far from perfect. Powerful as it might be, it is susceptible to multiple variables. Which lead to 4 major lines of design:


1.) Control/Stall -- Designs that were control in nature and would effectively control the board or protect one’s self from most variables until the combo pieces were assembled.
2.) Speed –Designs that act as tool boxes to find the major pieces as fast as possible to execute the combo finish.
3.) Synergy -- Built/Designed to harness the synergy of the cards to one another. What could be normally a useless/ordinary card becomes an extremely powerful piece of the solution.
4.) Substitution/Alternate – Built to utilize painter/grindstone as one of the major kill conditions but not the only kill condition.

Deck design types that have shown good standings in legacy tournaments that utilize this combo are as follows:

Mighty Quinn
(Mono W variant, utilizing humility, isochron sceptre and enlightened tutor to stall and assemble combo)


o Notable for its ability to stall and answer creature based threats and swarms. It is Mid-range type deck that improves its board position over time by utilizing W’s multitude of protection. Alternate kill condition would utilize token generators that will swarm opponents.
o http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=198753

Imperial Recruiter
(Mono R variant, utilizing imperial recruiter and punishes multi coloured decks)


o Notable for its ability to “punish” decks utilizing more than 1 colour and “recruiting” creature tool box that allow it to effectively assemble the combo or provide a beat down of the opponent if all else fails.
o http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=120182

Bomber Man
(Ken Adams Variant, utilizing Imperial recruiter + Auriok Salvagers as a alt win con)


o Notable for its “flexibility” on either finishing the opponent with its Bomber man Route or Grindstone.
o http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=667121


I.b Side History

Historically the first successful* U/R Painter Grindstone variant was in fact piloted and designed by Noham Maubert who placed Top 16 in the Bazaar of Moxen 4 series in Europe. However the more popular and faster variant today is credited to Caleb Durward.

I would like to make it clear that I am in no way responsible for the creation of current U/R Painter Servant deck. I am just a Deck Theorist and Analyst.

The recognition for the currently most successful build and design belongs to Mr. Caleb Durward. Success in my opinion is gauged if the deck reaches top 16 in a tournament that has more than 100+ players.


II. Strategy and Variants

The main strategy of Painter Grindstone decks is to utilize the synergy of Painter’s Servant and Grindstone. Its main win condition is to mill your opponent by assembling the Painter/Grindstone combination as quickly as possible.

How does the Main combo work?
1.) With Painter’s Servant in play. All cards are of the colour of your choice even those not in play.
2.) Grindstone’s ability states that if the 2 cards milled are of the same colour, you repeat this process.
3.) As a result the opponent’s (and your self’s) entire library/hand/graveyard is now the colour you choose (in addition to their original colour(s)). By activating grindstone’s ability you mill the entire library immediately.

To enable this strategy there have been a multitude of deck variants that aim to either protect, accelerate, and/or optimize the synergy of cards that will complete the combo and deal the finishing blow.

Caleb Durward’s Deck U/R Variant Synergy Points
Deck list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=798337

1.) Utilization of Goblin Welder, Intuition and artifact lands. By casting Intuition you will be able to find your key combo pieces almost immediately. While with the Goblin welder in play you can effectively exchange one artifact in play for an artifact in the graveyard. Synergizes with the artifact lands that allow you to exchange them for key cards that have been placed into the graveyard.
2.) Painter’s Servant and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast combination. Upon naming blue as the color of choice. All of your opponent’s cards are blue (so is yours), and because of that your REB and Pyro’s are more effective as a 1 mana vindicate or counterspell. (while allowing you to pitch any card to FOW)
3.) Use of Sol lands, Mox Opal, LED. The key strategy of this deck is to be able to utilize the combo as quickly as possible. Artifact lands + other artifacts in the deck can easily yield metalcraft while the LED acts as a accelerant trigger for you to pull the combo off faster. Synergizes well with the synergies in 1.)
4.) Greater focus on combo activation than protection
5.) Unique side board switch that utilizes a Show and Tell- Emrakul package.


Noham Maubert Deck Variant Synergy
Deck list: http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/magic-decklist-mtg-deck-list-bom-lists-bazaar-of-moxen.php (search for UR Painters)

1.) Control variant that has more counter spells and board control (EE’s and more Main deck REB & Pyro blasts)
2.) Utilizes the Sensei top and Counter Balance soft lock
3.) Greater focus on protection and control than combo activation
4.) Slower but more control type variant.



III. The Deck: U/R Painter’s Servant

Aka: The Grind Show, WeldServant, PaintGrindstone, Painter, Painted Stone, PG-123*, Show Stone*
*I have done research on this deck for several months and it does have various names that do have some sense of logic behind them. PG-123 (Painter Grindstone kill in T1, T2, T3), Show stone (due to the show and tell side board).

The U/R variant we will be discussing is the U/R Variant by Caleb Durward:

III.a Combo

Painter’s Servant
• The main utility of the deck with this you can grind your opponent to oblivion.
• Turn Red elemental/pyro blasts into one mana vindicates.
• It also allows you to pitch lands or excess cards to Force of Will when needed.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4

Grindstone
• It not only provides you a win condition, but you can mill yourself for key cards and weld them in with the Goblin Welder.
• You can also mill away useless cards for better ones, in synergy with brainstorm and/or sensei top.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4


III.b Tutors/Draw

Sensei’s Divining Top
• Improves your draws and help search for key cards
• Synergizes well with grindstone to help grind away useless or key cards to be welded in.
• Synergizes with goblin welder as a draw engine
• Recommended Deck Count: 4

Brainstorm
• There is very little I can say about this card. It is amazing. Helps dig and hide cards.
• Always remember that you can cast brainstorm and in response sacrifice the LED to allow you to keep the draw.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4


Intuition
• This card allows you to search for every key piece of the combo and use the Goblin Welder to weld them.
• You may sacrifice LED in response to casting this (if your short on mana) to get the card you need and still have floating mana.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4

Trinket Mage
• Finds your combo piece and acts as a bear for beat down situations.
• Recommend Deck Count: 1-2


III.c Accelerants

Mox Opal
• Synergizes well with the deck especially its composition of Artifact lands and others.
• Achieving Metal Craft is as easy as Turn 1 or Turn 2.
• Recommended Deck Count: 2-3
Lions Eye Diamond
• Gives you a black lotus like ability to blast away your opponent as quickly as Turn 1 with a Nuts hand.
• Recommended Deck count: 2-3


III.d Protection

Force of Will
• There are many articles online that suggest that nobody plays legacy without this card. Honestly? There probably right.
• Protects the combo and helps you delay opponents until you find the right pieces.
• Recommended Deck count: 4

Red/Pyro Blasts
• Who doesn’t want a 1 mana vindicate? Synergies extremely well with Painter’s Servant.
• Helps fight against blue decks.
• Usually broken into Red Elemental and Pyroblast to fight against Meddling mage or card that will eliminate all copies of that card from you deck.
• Recommended Deck count: 1 of each

Goblin Welder
• If a welder is in play you have a high % chance of winning (obviously keep it alive).
• You can weld key pieces into play even from your graveyard. Your counters are saved for more critical scenarios.
• They can weld in not only your stuff but it can also be used to weld exchange opponents artifacts.
• Recommended Deck Count: 3-4


III.e Lands

Steam vents/Volcanic Island
• Recommended Deck Count: 3-4

Seat of Synod/Great Furnace
• Artifact lands to get metalcraft going and synergizes well with the welder.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4 Seat & 3Furnace

City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb
• Sol lands that will give you the boost you need to win the game or power cast something.
• These lands will give you the “push” you need to win as early as T1 to T3.
• Recommended Deck Count: 5-6 (ratio of 3:3 or 3:2 or 4:1 depending on player choice)

Island/Mountain
• On a heavy wasteland environment you might want to Up count the basic lands of your deck. However in most cases a single island would suffice due to the artifact mana.
• Recommended Deck Count: 1-2 (A single island and mountain, most cases just 1 island would be fine)

Island Fetch lands:
• Completely up to the player. Some use various fetchlands to confuse the opponent on the type of deck he/she is playing. Another is to avoid needle/revoker effects on a particular fetchland.
• Recommended Deck Count: 4-6 (Island fetching types)


III.f U/R Deck Build Variants Decklists
Caleb Durward (Original Designer of the Deck and piloted the deck in multiple Starcity Events):

Variant 1: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=798336
Variant 2: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=798337


Alex Kwan (1st Place @ Starcity Legacy Los Angeles 2011):

Variant: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5692&iddeck=41196
Variant 2: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42248


John Cuvelier (Top 4 @ Starcity Legacy Orlando 2011):

Variant: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38342/url]


Wilson Hunter (Top 8 @ GP Providence Legacy 2011):

Variant: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/14826/url]



III.g Other build notes & observations:

• Some builds reduce LED count to 1, to add Mental Missteps, Transmute artifact, and/or GY hate (singleton)
• Some builds mix Mox opal and Lotus petals 2:1, 1:2, 2:2
• Some builds remove Trinket mages, RedE/Pyro and a Dual in lieu of a more Robots build (2wurmcoil + 1 myr battle sphere + 2 Splinter Twin)
• Some builds have SB conversions that change or alter the deck's win conditions eg. ShowTell/Emrakul or Bomberman or Splintertwin/pester/exarch or Transmute robots
• Some main deck Mind-Break Trap and reduce FOW and Trinket Mage count.
• Some main deck 1-2 Transmute artifacts (using a thopter-sword/ensnaring/robot build) variant



[U]IV. Meta Choice Slots

You may have anywhere from 2-8 card spaces left in your deck, depending on what you choose to reduce from the Maindeck. Ultimately the additions and/or replacements of cards are choices made by the player to better suite their local game, Meta environment or play style.

As a note of caution usually a minimum of 3 pcs of a particular card should be placed to maximize Intuition. You never want to sideboard in 2pcs Show and Tells and 2pcs Emrakuls (unless you are fairly confident you can jedi mind trick your opponent into giving you the card you need.)


Trinket Mage
• Helps find the combo piece or SB pieces
• Provides a nice Bear to hold off the opponent until you get what you need.

Misdirection/Divert/RedElemental/Pyroblast
• Adds another unique counter to your arsenal
• Protects you from a Thoughtsize or hymn late game or early (depending on how you wish to use it)
• Nothing more priceless than seeing your opponent’s face when you misdirect a Thoughsize/swords/vindicate in a tight/critical game.

Ponder/Preordain
• Adding more draw effects to dig into the combo pieces faster.

Mental Misstep
• Adds to your ability to protect your main combo via "free" counters, and pitchable to FOW.
• Currently this card is now a MB staple with a count ranging from 3-4

Spell Pierce/Daze/ Spell Snare
• Adds more counter protection and control to your game.
• Choose according to your play style and meta

Tormod’s Crypt/Nihil Spell bomb
• Usually added in to a Emrakul or Dredge heavy environment. Nothing worse than assembling your combo turn 1 only to find out he’s a sneak attack player.

Gamble/Muddle the Mixture
• There will be meta’s that have Leylines of Sanctity maindeck (dunno why but it has happened) effects and prevent you from utilizing your Intuitions.
• A poor replacement would be Gamble but it still gets the job done sometimes..(if you’re lucky...)
• Another replacement is Muddle the Mixture. Adds a nice search effect if you think you don’t have enough + Counters stuff too.
• For those who cannot afford Intuitions. These are cheaper alternatives but they do take longer.

Transmute Artifact
• Adds a unique variation to your deck. By utilizing existing/excess artifacts and can effectively design a "tool kit" around this card.
• Note the oracle text of this card (people will ask this ALOT -- Wilson Hunter)

Wurmcoil Engines/Myr Battle sphere/Inkwell Leviathan
• Adds a unique ground game to your deck. You can disguise your deck as a Forgemaster deck when needed.

Counter Balance
• Counter Balance and divining top provides a “soft lock” combo that will enable you to dodge removals if needed.
• Counter Balance is an interesting choice as it wonders against storm type decks.


Grim Monolith
• There are those who try to shy away from LED’s due to their limitations/drawbacks the option of Grim Monoliths are a suitable substitute for the budget weary.
• Do not think that the monoliths are only for budget conscious people, combined with Transmute artifact and the right "tool kit" can essentially make your deck very flexible against a multitude of opponents.

Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone
• If you are having alot of trouble against creatures this might be a suitable card of choice.

Lotus Petals
• There are those who try to shy away from too many Moxs or LED’s due to their limitations/drawbacks the option of Lotus petals are also available for the budget weary.


V. Sideboard Choices

Please note that you are not limited to just these choices. There are many other sideboard options available to you. The below listed SB Options are merely suggestions and variants that were tested and used in various games.


Alternate win condition [Variant 1: E.A.T-SH.A.T] Show and Tell + Emrakul Aeons of Thorn
• Works very well against a heavy aggro meta.

Alternate win condition [Variant 2: Robotech] Pestermite/Wurm Coil Engine/Myr Battle Sphere/Sundering Titan + Splinter twin or Transmute artifact
• Transmute artifact + Grim Monolith variants provide U/R users with interesting tech that they can utilize in various situations. Balanced finish but not an Ultimate finish. (clarification: Ultimate finish = opponent dead, Balanced finish = opponents are in a disadvantage and can eventually lead to their deaths)

Alternate win condition [Variant 3: Bomberman] Auriok Salvagers + Pyrite spell bomb + LED = infinite damage + draw
• The deck itself has the components needed to create this "bomberman" combo. It is a very powerful combo in the right meta environment and will finish your opponents instantly if left unchecked.

Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon
• Punishes your rich multicoloured opponents and will make all your lands produce only R. Or use Magus to beat down your opponent if all else fails.
• Fortunately your combo needs colorless mana to work.

Echoing Truth
• Bounce effects are fun. Especially if you need to save one of your creatures or bounce alot of the same 1/1’s

Tormod’s Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb
• Even when survival leaving the environment. Reanimator type decks are starting to emerge. Always place 2-1 ratio to get around pithing needle/revoker when needed.
• Emrakul.... good on youre side. Bad if not.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
• The more vindicates and counters the better.

Pithing Needle/Revoker
• Pesky Pridemage? Survival coming back? Caldebra? This is one way of putting a wrench into their gears.

Washout
• Imagine a situation where you name one color. You wash out. Who do you think will recover fast enough on the same turn.
o Tomb/traitor, Painter, Mox, LED, Grindstone.....

Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone
• If things start to get beefy. It might be good to have one of these guys out when you need a little time.

Hurklys Recall/Shattering spree/Ancient Grudge
• Too many artifacts? Well this can help give you a turn to breathe.

MindBreak Trap
• Elves, Affinity, TES/ANT/Storm, Charbelcher

Llawan, Cephalid Empress
• Makes any zoo or aggo deck want to cry. Amazing synergy with the Painter.

Misdirection/divert
• I think this was covered already, nuff said.

Spell Skites
• Makes burn and removal target your guy! Blocks the Pridemage and other weenies with is 0/4 man-beef body :D


VI. Additional Notes/Rules: (Judges please correct me if I am wrong)

• Painter’s Servant effect still works with Humility in play.
• Sacrificing LED in response to a draw effect. Allowing you to draw the card and have floating mana.
• Using Sensei’s draw card ability and then welding another artifact into play will net you a card (as the top will allow you to draw and then look for its second effect which is place itself into the top of your library, but since its no longer there that effect is ignored)
• You are unable to use Intuition when there is a card that Prevents you from targeting the player.
• LED can be sacrificed during a split second spell as long as the controller has priority
• LED sacrifice cannot be stopped by stifle or pithing needle (as it is a mana ability)
• Transmute artifact is unique as the sacrifice is only applicable if the spell resolves. Thus if the spell is countered there is no need to sacrfice the artifact in question.



VII. Play notes

I have listed several decks here and play strategies that you can employ. Generally the basic strategies are as follows:

• Imagine this deck like a Golden Gun. One bullet is all you to end the game. But if you miss be prepared to get shot at.
• Try to avoid a wasteland. You want to get to your critical turn 2 and 3 to finish the game. Fetch the basic if needed.
• Remember the rule of 3. Intuition is only useful if you have 3 of the same card. You really don’t want to find yourself needing an Echoing truth only to find 2 pcs.
• The use of the LED will leave you vulnerable. Unless you have no choice you might want to hold off using it unless in response to your opponent’s attempt to kill the painter.
• Remember card interactions and check if you need to grind yourself to find the right card.
• It is tempting to “GOD Hand” your opponent and try to go all in on T1 or T2. Be mindful of what could be in your opponent’s deck before you go all in.
• Look at your Meta and revise your MD accordingly.
• There is no 100% win. There will be times your opponent has a nut draw or draws the right answers for you. Do not despair. Smile, as you will also have times like that.
Please understand that there is no 100% win. There will be times your opponents just has everything going for them and you could not win. There will be times you will just draw the right cards and dominate. There will be variable win conditions as this is because it all depends on the experience and skill of the player.


VIII VS DECKS

NOTES

Excellent: 65% or greater win percentages
Good: 51-64%
Variable: 50/50 toss up (again depends on skill and experience)
Requires SB: Less than 49% These are match ups that are just plain BAD and sometimes hard to win at all.


VIII.a AGGRO Types


Merfolk
• Not a difficult match up. Just remember DAZE.
• Prepare for a counter war and leave mana open.
• SB: Plug in your Pyro and Red E blasts and you’ll be fine.
• Excellent win %

Goblins
• It is actually more difficult than it seems. They will play fast, which means you have to play a faster hand.
• Difficult with their ability to deny our manabase (waste/rashidan port)
• Mid-Long game benefits goblins. *Cant counter Gempalms.
• SB: Show and Emrakul mode.
• Good win %

Zoo
• Alot of creature removal and fast/efficient creatures. Too many to handle and too many threats on your combo pieces (gets even worse post sb for them)
• You need to end this quickly or else you will find yourself in a jam.
• SB: Show and Emrakul mode.
• Variable win %

Affinity
• Revoker will get annoying.
• Mull Agressively. You will need a hand that kills by T3-T4 or your dead.
• SB: Show and Emrakul mode (but they can still overwhelm you)
• Good win %

Dredge
• Knowing what to counter is critical. You want to slow them down as much as you can so you can combo before them.
• You want to finish this game quickly look for a T3 or 4 win.
• Post SB: Nihil + tormod will help alot
• Excellent win %

Rock/Junk
• Possibly the most difficult aggro match up. Due to hand disruption and creature kill abilities.
• SB will not help much as most designs incorporate a Mainboard karakas.
• Play smart know what to bait. If you get out a welder and let it stick you should have no problems.
• Variable win %

VIII.b CONTROL


Counter Balance
• This deck was designed originally to be faster than CB
• Play smart and prepare for a counter war
• SB: REB, PYRO, EMRAKUL/Show mode
• Excellent Win %

Landstill
• Do not think this will be a problem. Unless they have Blessings MB.
• Prepare to beat down your opponent or weld in your win conditions.
• Prepare to have your manabase attacked.
• Excellent Win %

MUD/Forgemaster
• No experience on this deck archetype.
• From a theoretical stand point it is very winnable and probably will not be difficult.
• Excellent Win %

Burn/RDW/Aggo Red
• They are very fast. You will need to protect and run your combo quickly.
• Protection before activation will probably be a must.
• Price of progress will leave you in the redzone if the game progresses
• Variable win %

Death and Taxes (white and Green variants)
• If you let this deck reach mid game or board control there is no way for you to win.
• Quickly win and do it with protection.
• Good win %

VIII.c COMBO
Combo decks fighting combo decks is a toss-up. It is like comparing two people shooting uzi’s at each other. Someone is gonna get shot, just depends if it’s a head shot of a flesh wound.


Enchantress
• Win quickly and use REB/Pyro on the right enchantments that will give you the window to victory.
• Emrakul variants MD makes our lives very difficult. (low 20% win probability)
• Non Emrakul variants (high 60%)
• Requires SB

Sneak Attack/Show Tell
• It will seem unwinnable. But if counter the right spells and play tight you can go old fashioned weenie beat down.
• Post SB you’ll be fine with the GY hate and extra Red blasts.
• Force for Sneak and RedE/Pyro for Show and tell
• Keep mana open for Spell Pierce and Daze.
• Requires SB

Doomsday
• Same as the Sneak Attack/Show Tell
• Counter the ones the count.
• SB: GY hate
• Requires SB

Hightide
• I think this comes down to who can get going first.
• Counter wars will be critical once your opponent reaches 4 islands.
• SB: Pithing, Reb/Pyro, Show and Tell/Emrakul package
• Variable win %

Charbelcher
• Its all about the nut draw.
• Variable win %

ANT/TES
• [url]http://www.blip.tv/file/4954351?utm_source=player_embedded
• Variable win % (but maybe less due to speed battle)

Cephalid Breakfast
• Again its all about who can get started faster.
• Variable win %

Aluren
• Never had the pleasure of going against one of these decks.
• In theory we can win easily
• Good win %

VIII.c UNIQUE


Maverick
• Equipment based deck that is reliant on various swords for victory.
• If its Turn 6 and you haven’t won. You’re in trouble.
• Variable win %

Elves
• Combo
o Variable win % due to emrakul package
• Aggro
o Excellent win %
• Depends on the version. If it’s the Emrakul version you’ll have a rough time without GY hate.

Reanimator
• Good win %
• SB will boost it to Excellent win %

Team America
• Counters, Fire and Ice, and Tharmo puts you in a dicey situation.
• Add more REB’s and Pyro to protect your pieces and take out the threats.
• It’s a little of both aggro and control making it very difficult on our lives.
• Variable win %

NO Bant or Bant Aggro
• Watch out for this deck, it is faster than it seems.
• Protect your combo and try to win early.
• Natural Order is scary but try to concentrate on getting your pieces together.
• You’ll be on a clock, hope your draws get you what you need in time.
• Variable win %

Post Eldrazi Ramp
• Not very winnable, but with GY hate your chances of winning nearly double.
• SB: Pithing takes care of the candle stick, REB blows up posts, while GY hate removes the Eldrazi’s
• Requires SB

Note: I will post SB + and – once I done more research on the various opponents. If you guys are wondering if I tested against all these decks with competent people. My answer is NO. I cannot be the judge if an individual is competent in using a deck or not. However I did simulations and watched videos/games of people who have gone against these decks above.

VIV. Situational Analysis (Requires a Judge for clarification on these)


1.) Welding in a pithing needle (naming Quasali Pridemage) in response to a Quasali Pridemage sacrifice?
Q: Is the pridemage still able to sacrifice itself?

The ability is already on the stack so nope. But one thing that has happened to me in tournaments is I'll cast pithing needle, my opponent asks me what I name and I say Quasali, he'll try to activate Quasali but I inform him he can't. Same situation with cabal therapy, opponent can't respond after asking you what you name.


2.) It is currently my turn, I cast intuition for 3 Painter’s Servant.
a. My opponent obviously picks Painter’s Servant and I place that in my hand.
b. As I was about to cast Painter’s Servant, he casts Expirate on me removing Painter’s Servant.
Q: Does the Painter in my hand get removed? Or do I still have priority to cast it. (Lets say it was done before B? Or After B)

You're the active player, so you have priority. He can't just cast extirpate out of no where, you can cast your Painter first then he could respond to it with Extirpate but it will not stop your Painter from resolving.


3.) I have metal craft. I play my Mox opal, tap it for mana, then I play another mox opal.
Q: Can I still tap the newly entered mox opal for mana before destroying both opals due to legendary rules?

Nope, legend rule, can't respond to it =\


4.) I transmute my Muddle the Mixture and in response to that I use LED.
Q: Do I still get the card I transmuted it for? Does this work?

It is an activated ability so you can still respond with LED without passing priority.


5.) Can I cast Intuition then sacrifice my LED in response?
Q: Do I get the card I Intuition for?

Yep, just like the Infernal Tutor/LED in TES, you can respond to your own spell but it is important to announce you are retaining priority.


6.) Does humility affect Emrakul in the graveyard?
Q: If yes then does that mean I get to shuffle?

Nope, our answer to him is Tormod's.


7.) I use my LED to activate my grindstone (My hand: Force of will + land), my opponent responds to my grindstone activation via stifle. Can I still counter that stifle?




XX. Reference


You may refer to Mr. Durward’s experience in testing the initial designs for the U/R build here
• http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-painting-the-world-blue/

Mr. Durward and Mr. George Blankenship experience in the tournament.
• http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-painting-memphis/
Whose success with the deck was eventually pushed beyond the top 8 by Alex Kwan

See Starcity Games articles on Alex Kwan’s experiences at The Source.

For those who are interested in the U/R Painter variant by Noham Maubert (search for UR Painters)
• http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/magic-decklist-mtg-deck-list-bom-lists-bazaar-of-moxen.php

For those who wish to review play styles and matches of the winners
• http://scglive.blip.tv/?sort=custom;date=;view=archive;user=scglive;nsfw=dc;s=posts;page=16
Search for Alex Kwan, Caleb Durward, and George Blankenship

Reading Materials & To Watch
• http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-beating-combo-in-legacy/
• http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22052_GP_Providence_Top_8_With_Painted_Stone.html/[/INDENT]

tsabo_tavoc
04-17-2011, 07:22 AM
Excellent primer, finally a home for this highly successful variant, good job Mr. Professor!

I have very similar feels on your match-up analyses. Also, this thread is very help to learn how to combat Emrakul by assembling a three-card-combo
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20333-Grindstone-vs-Emrakuls-Progenitus

Some inputs on the rule part:
VIV.
1) No trick for you. Qasali's ability resolves (and it is no longer on the battlefield) before Pithing Needle enters the battlefield.
2) No trick for Extirpate. However, you need to cast your Painter before passing priority (After Intuition resolves on your turn, you get the priority first).
3) No trick for Mox Opal. The Legendary rule forces you to sacrifice before you will get a chance to activate even mana abilities (This has been enforced since Tolarian Academy.).
4) and 5) You get the tutored cards, just as the same way how Infernal Tutor/Brainstorm+LED works.
6) Emrakul in the graveyard is a creature card, but not a creature, hence not affected by Humility.
7) Mana pool is emptied after each phase. The phase after upkeep is the draw phase.

J.V.
04-17-2011, 08:40 AM
5.) Can I cast Intuition then sacrifice my LED in response?
Q: Do I get the card I Intuition for?
What you need to do is cast intuition and retain priority, you then sacrifice your Lion's Eye Diamond (Before Intuition resolves) This Will causa e you to discard your hand and put 3 mana into your pool, intuition will then resolve. so yes, you can end up with the card and the 3 mana.

sdematt
04-17-2011, 11:09 AM
You should actually post the list as well, not just link to it. That's my only criticism. Otherwise, good job!

-Matt

PanderAlexander
04-17-2011, 12:20 PM
Amazing job Marc, that is one of the most detailed and indepth primers, it will be very good for new people trying to get in to the archetype.

As for the questions, just like the other guys answered but to reiterate:

1.) Welding in a pithing needle (naming Quasali Pridemage) in response to a Quasali Pridemage sacrifice?
Q: Is the pridemage still able to sacrifice itself?

The ability is already on the stack so nope. But one thing that has happened to me in tournaments is I'll cast pithing needle, my opponent asks me what I name and I say Quasali, he'll try to activate Quasali but I inform him he can't. Same situation with cabal therapy, opponent can't respond after asking you what you name.


2.) It is currently my turn, I cast intuition for 3 Painter’s Servant.
a. My opponent obviously picks Painter’s Servant and I place that in my hand.
b. As I was about to cast Painter’s Servant, he casts Expirate on me removing Painter’s Servant.
Q: Does the Painter in my hand get removed? Or do I still have priority to cast it. (Lets say it was done before B? Or After B)

You're the active player, so you have priority. He can't just cast extirpate out of no where, you can cast your Painter first then he could respond to it with Extirpate but it will not stop your Painter from resolving.


3.) I have metal craft. I play my Mox opal, tap it for mana, then I play another mox opal.
Q: Can I still tap the newly entered mox opal for mana before destroying both opals due to legendary rules?

Nope, legend rule, can't respond to it =\


4.) I transmute my Muddle the Mixture and in response to that I use LED.
Q: Do I still get the card I transmuted it for? Does this work?

It is an activated ability so you can still respond with LED without passing priority.


5.) Can I cast Intuition then sacrifice my LED in response?
Q: Do I get the card I Intuition for?
Yep, just like the Infernal Tutor/LED in TES, you can respond to your own spell but it is important to announce you are retaining priority.


6.) Does humility affect Emrakul in the graveyard?
Q: If yes then does that mean I get to shuffle?
Nope, our answer to him is Tormod's.


7.) My opponent floats mana during my upkeep. I then declare battle phase. Then I end combat step.
a.) I then cast my painter's servant, my opponent uses his floating mana to counter it.
Q: Doesn't floating mana "go away" after battle phase is concluded? Doesn't he have to use that mana prior to end of combat step?

He can't do that, mana doesn't float through the phases like that.

TheProfessor
04-17-2011, 01:13 PM
Thanks Alex! Especially comming from you lol

Oh thanks for answering the extra questions section. I'll revise the primer accordingly :D

Wanna start writing articles for SCG? I can write as a ghost writer hahaha



Sorry Question #6 was not meant for this primer lol

I was compiling my list for commonly asked judge questions/interactions.

That particular question was for a sneak attack deck.

The question was if emrakul was sneaked in. at end of turn does he still need to be sacrificed? (due to sneak attack's conditions).

But since he goes into the graveyard, does humility still affect it preventing it from re-shuffling youre graveyard/library?

sdematt
04-17-2011, 02:35 PM
. Same situation with cabal therapy, opponent can't respond after asking you what you name.



Somewhat misleading, in a way. Many times when you're playing against blue decks, wait until you get confirmation of it resolving before you name. I've had tricky opponents where I've cast Needle or Cabal Therapy and named the card, but then they counter it. Why? They never said it has resolved yet, and I had "jumped the gun." Yeah right. Point being, wait until confirmation of resolution before naming. You don't want to give free information before anything is actually set in stone.

-Matt

PanderAlexander
04-18-2011, 03:22 AM
Somewhat misleading, in a way. Many times when you're playing against blue decks, wait until you get confirmation of it resolving before you name. I've had tricky opponents where I've cast Needle or Cabal Therapy and named the card, but then they counter it. Why? They never said it has resolved yet, and I had "jumped the gun." Yeah right. Point being, wait until confirmation of resolution before naming. You don't want to give free information before anything is actually set in stone.

-Matt

They can't do what I said, if they ask you what you name then they can't try to respond or counter after they already asked.

jedi_gof
04-18-2011, 03:27 AM
How is it with the big bombs, when is it a replacement effect and when is it a triggered aka what can you remove with the GY hate?
If they have multiples how do you handle it?

Thinking about the following 3 primarely:
Emrakul
Progenitus
One-shot robot
And the likes

Great primer i must say, batlled the deck to a 10th place with a 5-2 record (with 2 heartbreaking losses) in our Danish Legacy Masters tourney earlier this month with 90 players... Prob could have won both if i had been slightly more experienced than it was the case :)

PanderAlexander
04-18-2011, 03:33 AM
How is it with the big bombs, when is it a replacement effect and when is it a triggered aka what can you remove with the GY hate?
If they have multiples how do you handle it?

Thinking about the following 3 primarely:
Emrakul
Progenitus
One-shot robot
And the likes

Great primer i must say, batlled the deck to a 10th place with a 5-2 record (with 2 heartbreaking losses) in our Danish Legacy Masters tourney earlier this month with 90 players... Prob could have won both if i had been slightly more experienced than it was the case :)

Emrakul's you can have them all triggered on the stack and respond to them with GY hate. Progenitus and one-shot robot are replacement effects so they never hit the GY, and if two of them are in the deck it is a infinite loop and draw. In games like that, I would try the beat downs with trinket, welder, and painter but still have the combo so if I'm about to lose I'll combo for the draw.


Great primer i must say, batlled the deck to a 10th place with a 5-2 record (with 2 heartbreaking losses) in our Danish Legacy Masters tourney earlier this month with 90 players... Prob could have won both if i had been slightly more experienced than it was the case :)

Nice record especially for 90 players. This is a great primer by Marc, at the tournament today I had people say they want to build the deck and learn to play it, I pointed them to this thread.

TheProfessor
04-18-2011, 04:25 AM
@sdematt
Thanks for your comments. I was hesitant to place a decklist here as this NOT my deck and did not want others to think i created it. So I placed links to the actual decks of the owner and winner lol.

@Jedigof
Thank you :D Please feel free to critique and


@Alex
Thanks Alex :D You're a great help man.

I placed this Primer on two sites. Source & Salvation.

Thought people should enjoy this build its pretty fun and straight forward. Personally its a much cheaper alternative than the Imperial variant :D (although it is my fondest dream to have a set of my own which i'm saving up for haha)

How'd you do at the tourney?

Sloshthedark
04-18-2011, 05:27 AM
Professor - you post fast =) I haven't time to contact you, anyway nice primer! thanks for you effort!!

I think the match-ups are little overestimated and not as easy - are strongly dependent on whether opponent knows deck you are playing (same as with every combo, but they have easier keeps with this one)

Few advices I'd add some basic, some maybe not that obvious rules, facts, tips and experiences

use mind tricks and play smart! - in many situations you can win the next card you see/draw, imagine the draws measure the probabilities well!

their greed - your benefit
- surprise them, the deck fully supports, you can't win G1 against burn - seriously you can't - often they do not realize, that keeping 3 burn spells in hand untapped and killing you T14 with lavamancer is the right play, they stick to kill you fast // you can kill elves in response to the glimpse trigger, if you suspect Emrakul inside

people tend to scoop to the combo even if they can't loose

learn the Grindstone interactions (and painters) (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20090406a), you play the deck - you should know them, do not let yourself be distracted by opponents who just think they know them - even judges at small events, especially triggers (respond on the last one!), 2 progs in library = forced draw!

some people don't understand the rules (/deck), fall into a superman complex and think that with Prog/Emrakul/Humility they cannot lose, let them...

remember Progenitus stays in library, so they have additional turn (=with 7 cards in hand infinite turns!!) actually boarding one in isn't that bad ; ) , especially with elves this one matters

remember they loose on their draw, so if you are on 2 lives that tapped Lavamancer can make it the same as milling in the last extra turn can't

if you mill your opponents deck go though it and learn it, dirty trick especially! (post SB double time!), play fair, but don't do it if you suspect to find 2 Progs =)

multiple grindstones are also protection

welding in painter (for grindstone) while grindstone activation is on stack is a common operation, like discarding Painter with LED to enable the process

read the welder errata, opponent doesn't need to know them, and usually doesn't, but you should not underestimate the risks they do (maybe welding a land ftw with a untapped wasteland on the other side is not that good)

watch out for stifle! - can ruin your day, same with Pyrokinesis

watch out for Vendilion Clique - attacking with painter/ welder is not good option, measure your options carefully and attack only in match ups and situations you actually can win on lives! untapped Welder is 95% bigger threat than -1 life, again use attack as smart play rather than Beat you!


Do not always name blue! - again - use our head and dont let yourself be caught by surprise, naming is always situational, Blue supports you plan but is not mandatory, the safest color is BLACK, - for example Team America can't deal with Painter on black, unless the play Smother, even some U/B merfolk may play Ghastly demise (and they are all blue anyway, except you care for vial - so early/late game matters) , green extends Zeniths/Orders

Naming the Color cannot be responded to! - same with Pithing needle, Iona, once they ask you the color - it's in!

Swords and Fire and Ice is neutralized by Painter on blue/red - protection - everything is blue/red - equipping causes it to fall off

pyroblast can target anything

always ask yourself if you can do better

and last but not least - LEARN THE DECK - especially !!!Intuition piles!!!, mastering intuition is essential. usually you don't fetch 3 same cards (psychological piles for masters =)), remember you can discard with LED



those are the most common from the top of my head maybe I forgot some, I hope these help, if anyone has other interactions, please share them

EddieO
04-18-2011, 12:13 PM
I've found myself naming other colors more and more often. Black and White seem to be the safest ones. Black can shut stuff off in certain decks and there is really no draw back to white. Always naming blue can be dangerous, as it turns FOW fodder on, namely lands getting discarded to force key spells. Red can be bad news also for pyrokensis.....green turns on NO or GSZ....

Later EddieO

jedi_gof
04-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Agree with most of the stated by the other guys, as i said earlier this is a great primer.

There is a lot to learn, but if you are a relatively skilled player, you can pick up most of the tricks pretty quick.
The tourney I played in where I got 10th, was the first for me with UR painter.
Funny story, I played the Imperial Painter "mirror", the first mirror for me, he was slightly more experienced with his deck.

I have 3 grindstones in play, 5 nonbasic lands and a LED.
He has 4 Lands, a grindstone, a top and a Magus of the blood moonn play. In other words, beating me down slowly.

Needless to say we were both waiting for the painter, his chances were alot better than mine to find a painter ofc and he could keep beating me w/ magus :D
He tops EO my Turn, smiles and takes his turn. He draws, plays the painter with 2 untapped lands, taps to draw top card which were a manasource, and in respons i activate my grindstone... only then did it occur to us that he was dead to the top activation... Good times, bad plays:D

Game 3 he has again magus of Bmoon locked me, and again we are in painterchasemode both of us with grinstones ready... He finds it first again, this time making sure he doesnt make a mistake on the mana, activates and finds the Emmy's in my deck ;D Well played deck, I win on his next turn. More good times, more bad plays:D He was devastated, and I felt sorry for him since it is a good friend, but he was a good sport about it and we laughed hard and long about this game...

I will be playing it again tomorrow, will check back with results of that later this week.

I think it would be a good idea to name the most likely intuition-piles, 'cause thats where a lot of people go wrong.

Sintheros
04-18-2011, 11:54 PM
That would be appreciated. Lets say, for instance, the following scenario.

I have two Seat of the Synod, an active Welder, a Painter, and an Opal in play.
I play Intuition. I have no artifacts in my graveyard or non-countermagic in my hand. Is there a way to win on the spot?
I *could* grab LED/LED/Grindstone, hope they give me the LED, weld in the Grindstone and win, but that's not so likely.

TheProfessor
04-19-2011, 02:19 AM
@ Sloshthedark: Thanks slosh! I will add your comments and links into the Primer I will do the editing tomorrow or tonite :D Sorry I was waiting for comments but I decided "might as well post it and edit it" along the way haha. Formatting this took me half a day T.T

The link on painter grindstone interaction was pretty good I'll have to add that to the list of references. Thanks man!

@EddieO + Sloshthedark: Yes that is correct naming blue isnt always the best way to go. You should name a color accoding to what type of opponent you have.

@Jedi_gof: Yes actually I have a list of Intuition piles that I have been drafting. But realized that focusing on something that can be disrupted by a single leyline (white or black)?

Would be hard to list down every single situation as each scenario has unique variables.... So i decided not to post them. However if you guys think it is essential i'll be more than happy to look for it in my trash bin and post it :D (lol) But dont you think intuition piles are a little situational? (i mean you have to have factored in available mana, threat (board base or spell base), remaining turns, and timing.

I love mirror matches. This is the only time skill truly shines dont you guys think? Honestly I am personally looking for a set of imperials as I wanna build every Painter/G-stone variant out there haha :D I got 8 g-stones already (i know... kinda wierd).

@Sintheros: Are we talking about casting intuition on your turn or at the end of your opponents turn? :D

If it is during your turn then there are no combinations that can win you on the spot. If your opponent is good then there are no realistic combinations that can win you that turn. This is why I have seen other players add Robots to their deck. By robots eg. wurmcoil engines, myr battle sphere, sundering titans, etc. That act as decoys for the opponent. As they serve 2 purposes.

1.) Your opponent will look at your mana base and pick the one you cant cast.
2.) If they do not pick what you want. You can weld in a robot to protect you for that 1 turn (as your pieces were sent to the graveyard) or you can go beat down.
3.) When your welder is in play it can weld your win pieces slowly back to play.

PS. I am not saying we should add robots to our deck I'm merely stating an observation that I had from personal testing and actual gameplay.

Funny story:
Against sui-black
Situation: Next turn would be lethal for me. Currently it is my turn.

Board for me: Painter, 1 sol land,1 sensei top (topped at opponent end turn: Grindstone, wurmcoil, land)
Just drew: 1 Grindstone (next 2 cards Wurmcoil and Land), my other card in hand was REB (he thoughtsized my force and he casted his hexamage), Fetchland.

Opponent:
He had a Needle (g-stone).
He had dark depths and the hexamage out and it was basically lethal for me if i ended my turn. (his hand: Hymn and confidant)

What I did.
Cast the stone. Naming Blue. Used 1 mana to look at the top 3 (Wurm, Land, intuition). Played fetch, used it. Got a red source (REB his needle). Shuffled and used top to draw blind (lol). Got a LED and played :p (Cest Fin)

Sorry just had to share that.. lol

jedi_gof
04-20-2011, 08:13 AM
Back again, this time with a (very) short rapport from yesterdays tourney with 35 players.

Played a more or less stock list, replacing the misdirection/trinket mages with thirst for knowledge for some more quality carddraw. They were really good all night...

Round 1: Esper-Cookiebrew
This was a new guy I had newer seen before who in round admitted it was his 1st legacy tourney.
We shuffle up, I win die roll and keeps my 7. So does he. And puts into play Leyline of Sanctity. WUUT?? Well, luckily the rest of his deck did not put up to much of a fight, painter+blast killed the leyline, and g2 was uneventful as a turn 4 emrakul prompted a autoscoop.
2-0, 1-0-0

Round 2: Team America.
G1 he has EE for 1, goyf and a late tombstalker. Luckily i lured him into blowing the EE to take out my Grindstone, and managed to battle through counters+stifles to win at 2 life starring down on a goyf+stalker.
G2 he stalls @ 2 lands and its smooth sailing.
4-0, 2-0-0


Round 3: Bant aggro
G1: Misplays from my side and above normal draws from him ended game 1 quickly.
G2: He had the world, and its a quick 2-0 to him.

4-2, 2-1-0

Round 4: Hi Tide
Long exhausting G1... I manage to stop him 3 times from going off, and deplete him from cards, meaning i eventually pull out the win.
After boarding we had 7mins for game 2, and he tries to go off too early, and i have infi blasts to stop him. Phew, tough one...
6-2, 3-1-0

Round 5: Cephalid Breakfast
He wins dieroll... G1 he goes T1 Nomad, t2 Cephalid to which i have force, but he dont care as he has a t3 cephalid too, and I had t3 kill, so good for him he had a backup cephalid.

G2+3 becomes attrition war over combo pieces which I win both of them, the GY hate in particular was great here.
8-3, 4-1-0

Round 6: ID to go in top 4 for store credit.

3rd tourney with this deck, and havent been outside prices yet with 2x top 4 in ~40 mans tourneys and the 10th in DLM..

Good stuff, thanks to the brains of the business for comming up with this deck, it rocks.

As a sidenote, at the Danish legacy masters, we arranged a Vintage Event sunday, for which I sleeved up paintedstone and picked up a recall for my 1st place, turns out the combo is also good in vintage :D

tsabo_tavoc
04-21-2011, 10:44 AM
This belongs to the very few combo decks that benefit from Mental Misstep. Creature removal (especially exile effects) can now be solved without opening mana or card disadvantage. Moreover, the deck laughs at opposing counters when Goblin Welder was sneaked into play. A deck post NPH could look like

4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Intuition

4 Goblin Welder
4 Mental Misstep
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mox Opal
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

I don't know if there are any intuition piles involving REBs, and how would cutting the MD number to 1 affect.

Doomsday
04-21-2011, 03:48 PM
Is anyone else liking Transmute Artifact much better than Trinket Mage?

Pros:
-can actually get both combo pieces
-costs at least 1 less to get Grindstone into play with it, costs less to get Crypt, costs less to get LED, costs less to get Top, etc etc


Cons:
-UU cost means you can't play it turn 2 if you led with a sol land or with Furnace + Welder and have no active Opal
-Needs an artifact to sacrifice (this has definitely not been an issue with this deck:)
-Does not produce a Grizzly Bear

I just personally liked it better in testing and thought I'd share.

Sintheros
04-21-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't know about Misstep. Is it really worth dropping (in your case) a Pyro, 2 LEDs, and trinket mage over?

keys
04-21-2011, 08:51 PM
Is anyone else liking Transmute Artifact much better than Trinket Mage?

Pros:
-can actually get both combo pieces
-costs at least 1 less to get Grindstone into play with it, costs less to get Crypt, costs less to get LED, costs less to get Top, etc etc


Cons:
-UU cost means you can't play it turn 2 if you led with a sol land or with Furnace + Welder and have no active Opal
-Needs an artifact to sacrifice (this has definitely not been an issue with this deck:)
-Does not produce a Grizzly Bear

I just personally liked it better in testing and thought I'd share.

I like that you can also use it as a psuedo entomb with something like Wurmcoil or Sundering Titan as well. It's definitely more awkward to cast than Trinket Mage or Fabricate, however.

Another option is Tezzeret 1.0. Anybody tried this? He's tutor and an alternate win con all in one.

ivanpei
04-22-2011, 12:17 AM
I play the 1 Trinket (the other flex being misdirection- proven to be pretty good) and it has been awkward for me too. I like having transmute artifact replacing the 1 trinket since it finds painter! Drawing extra grindstones/painters/leds/opals is always very awkward for me and Transmute may help alot in recycling dead multiples into something useful. Question is how many? I think 1-2 is ok because double blue is not something easy to come by. Another point to remember is that Trasmute Artifact has been reerataed recently and you sacrifice upon resolution of the spell and not as an additional cost. Awesome! Now opponents have to counter the tutor!

Sintheros
04-22-2011, 04:18 AM
Those flex slots may just become MMS slots though.

ivanpei
04-22-2011, 04:22 AM
Those flex slots may just become MMS slots though.

How True, Trinkets and REBs should probably be traded in for Mental Minsstep. Card is insane. It's like all legacy decks will be: -4 of the worst cards in the deck, + 4 Mental Misstep.

Sloshthedark
04-22-2011, 05:11 AM
I don't like the misstep, its too narrow... doesn't get you out of anything onboard and most of the enemy 1 drop do not matter at all... sacrificing speed for arguable kind of protection gets you to midgame when lifetotal can actually matter, its the same like playing 4 Tombs+ 4 Confidants, and you are dead to needles, revokers, meddling mages, enchantments which all can be played maindeck .. I don't like losing to random hate cards, thats a Merfolk style...

Transmute artifact seems awesome I like the synergies... but i would play counterbalance if i thought I can rely on UU, which proven itself exceptionaly bad half of the time through the testing... =/

keys
04-22-2011, 05:03 PM
Mental Misstep is not as good as REB/Misdirection in this deck.

Tacosnape
04-22-2011, 05:21 PM
I've always felt that Show and Tell/Emrakul is an absolutely terrible sideboard plan, especially given how bad it is against what you're already weak against: Other decks packing Emrakul.

Why doesn't the deck pack a combination of more red Blasts and Llawan, Cephalid Empress, who with Painter Servant locks down the opponent's ability to play creature spells? Then with enough Blasts for counter backup, it's pretty easy for Painter and Llawan to just swing for the win over a few turns if you can't get the combo off.

keys
04-22-2011, 05:41 PM
Well. The deck's problem matchups are (a) Emrakul/Progenitus, and (b) those with lots of redundant removal.

The Show and Tell plan is a good way to beat problem (b), but it isn't very hot vs (a).

I think a better plan might revolve around Wurmcoil Engine. Like Emrakul, it wins in the attack phase rather than the draw step, and is quite good against burn and aggro strategies. However, Wurmcoil is much more synergistic with Welder and Transmute Artifact.

Here's what I suggest:

3 Grim Monolith
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan/Sphinx of the Steel Wind/Duplicant (imagine the NO Show player's face when you Transmute this up...)

Along with a 2-3 Transmute Artifact maindeck, this could work better than Emrakul/Show and Tell. The deck already plays 4 Goblin Welder and a decent amount of acceleration, so basically it transforms the deck into psuedo MUD.

Intuition for Wurmcoil with Welder in play?
Transmute Monolith for Wurmcoil?
Transmute anything for Sundering Titan with Welder in play?
Transmute Wurmcoil for Sundering Titan?
Discard a robot with LED, then use Welder?

This opens up a lot of interesting plays.

(nameless one)
04-22-2011, 06:46 PM
So how would the 75 look like with the idea above?

sroncor1
04-22-2011, 06:47 PM
I usually only post on the Imperial painter thread but I was board at work and was reading this thread and thought I could put some input in with respect to Show and Tell sideboard. I have played Imperial Painter in the monored form and tried all the splashes so I know a little about the deck. Feel free to read that thread a bit as I know you guys will find some aspects that will help you.

I have been runnning a Show and Tell sideboard plan for like 5 months now. Initially I used it to beat zoo as that match up is really aweful. For a while I was pushing a black splash for Perish and it helped but not enough. Decks like zoo, junk, and burn can not beat fast Eldrazi. That with the painter combo just gives you to many bombs essentially as so many of your draws are live.

That being said sometimes the Show and Tell is a liability. You have to be real careful with goblins b/c a Matron spells doom for you. In my experience I will board in the plan if I'm on the draw as i will have an idea how they are attacking me and also you are starting behind the eight ball and they can incinerator you out a lot easier. If I'm on the play I'm less likely to keep the Show and Tell in, but I will keep the Intuition and get rid of blast effects and make the world black.

Intuition and eldrazi are actually a great way to beat Eldrazi. Now in Imperial Painter you do a lot of beating with Magus of the Moon, but Trinket mage does a good impression here. All you have to focus on is using their Show and Tell against them. Don't waste spots in the deck with Show and Tell. Either Intuition in response or sandbag the Eldrazi. I have used it many times when I have played NO, Show and Tell decks. It doesn't allow you to mill, but you stop their clock and beat face with a bunch of grey ogers. I'd be happy to talk about this or my experiences playing this deck if people are interested.

Seth

keys
04-22-2011, 10:37 PM
Why fight an uphill battle against NO Show with uncastable Eldrazi and weenies?

The Wurmcoil plan is hardly worse than Emrakul against burn, Zoo and Junk. Sure, it's weak to Swords, but you have Forces/misdirections. Not much you can do about Karakas.

Tutoring Show and Tell is also just a poor use of Intuition. And if your last copy gets blasted, you're SOL. On the other hand, one Welder can do a lot of damage after Intuition for 3 Wurmcoils resolves.

My 75 looks like the list in the OP, but with 2 Transmute Artifact in the flex spots instead of Trinket Mage. Its not tuned but the sideboard looks like this:

3 Grim Monolith
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
2 Misdirection
3 blasts
1 Crypt
1 Needle

lorddotm
04-22-2011, 10:59 PM
We talked about the boarding plan already keys, I just wanted to add a little bit.


Doesn't this make you very weak to artifact removal, it seem with your plan, being blown out by Affinity hate is not unreasonable.

keys
04-22-2011, 11:06 PM
What artifact removal is Wurmcoil + Welder vulnerable to?

nayon
04-22-2011, 11:49 PM
So unless you run mainboard GY hate there is no way to beat MD Emrakul G1?

lorddotm
04-23-2011, 12:07 AM
What artifact removal is Wurmcoil + Welder vulnerable to?

Well thats just vulnerable to the same shit as other stuffs, however going for Monoliths makes Null Rod kind of the nut high against you.

keys
04-23-2011, 12:47 AM
Null Rod doesn't scare me. Just blast it with painter in play. Or if you're going the Wurmcoil plan, just hard cast them off of multiple tombs/cities, or use Welder, or Top/Brainstorm and break LED in response.



So unless you run mainboard GY hate there is no way to beat MD Emrakul G1?

Outside of weenie beats or an amateur concession, you're correct. If you expect a lot of Emrakuls at a tournament, it's not a bad idea to maindeck a Crypt.

lorddotm
04-23-2011, 01:05 AM
Null Rod doesn't scare me. Just blast it with painter in play. Or if you're going the Wurmcoil plan, just hard cast them off of multiple tombs/cities, or use Welder, or Top/Brainstorm and break LED in response.




Outside of weenie beats or an amateur concession, you're correct. If you expect a lot of Emrakuls at a tournament, it's not a bad idea to maindeck a Crypt.

Lets be honest, if you expect a lot of Emrakuls, don't play Painter.

Good luck activating LED with Null Rod, also a lot of your mana base is shut off after a Null Rod, seems worry some to me.

keys
04-23-2011, 01:13 AM
RE: LED... brain fart. I guess don't board into Wurmcoil if you expect Null Rod. Does anyone play this anyway?

PanderAlexander
04-23-2011, 01:33 AM
RE: LED... brain fart. I guess don't board into Wurmcoil if you expect Null Rod. Does anyone play this anyway?

Didn't I borrow a Null Rod from you for the last tournament :)

I just bought my own playset of them last week.

sroncor1
04-23-2011, 07:18 AM
It's really not an uphill battle. Crypt is strong but with the way you are playing the deck you lose every game 1. That is a real tough spot to be in. That and Show and Tell and Eldrazi decks are fast enough to realistically just beat Wurmcoil. They don't really care about lifelink when your whole board is gone. The more you play the deck you will realize that sometimes the grindstone isn't an option. But the deck is a combo deck and Eldrazi are a combo. Tricks with Wormcoils are not really a combo. Its a good creature, but if you are welding artifacts you could get much better ones with protection. It is sort of unrealistic to think you will cast them faster than a NO or Show and Tell will drop their bomb. I guess I'm just not impressed with Wormcoil, but that is just my two cents.

Seth

keys
04-23-2011, 02:29 PM
First, most game ones against no show should end in a draw. If you're conceding every time, you're doing it wrong. Second, having wurmcoils is a lot better than nothing. A smart opponent will board out his show and tells for Goyfs, but keep the Emrakuls in because that's your only win con. Beating with Welders and Painters is not realistic after Goyfs come in. On the other hand, if your opponent knows you don't play show and tell, or he just decides not to board his out in any case, you can tutor for Duplicant. They don't play removal so your Welders are pretty strong. An Emrakul will outrace a Wurmcoil, but not a Dup.

Also, don't forget about countermagic. Forces and blasts can stall for a long time if you need to.


Didn't I borrow a Null Rod from you for the last tournament :)

I just bought my own playset of them last week.

You borrowed them for all of 3 minutes before changing decks lol.

Sloshthedark
04-23-2011, 07:41 PM
Why is Show and Tell in SB? because its totally different and unrelated to the rest of the deck except for blue mana, that's it ...
Ive tested the reanimation plan and is usually too slow or ineffective... its more tempting with the Transmute Artifact, which you cannot cast consistently, and welders will usually get killed asap anyway by these decks... zoo will sword them, sneakshow race them, with burn the turn hardcasting it you would be probably dead anyway... still it looks like a considerable SB option while playing Transmute artifact, but not to replace S&T as a whole

with grim monolith you end up with a different deck...
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1163

Doomsday
04-24-2011, 02:03 PM
Why is Show and Tell in SB? because its totally different and unrelated to the rest of the deck except for blue mana, that's it ...
Ive tested the reanimation plan and is usually too slow or ineffective... its more tempting with the Transmute Artifact, which you cannot cast consistently, and welders will usually get killed asap anyway by these decks... zoo will sword them, sneakshow race them, with burn the turn hardcasting it you would be probably dead anyway... still it looks like a considerable SB option while playing Transmute artifact, but not to replace S&T as a whole

with grim monolith you end up with a different deck...
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1163

Have you tested Transmute Artifact? You can absolutely cast it consistently. I wasn't advocating the Wurmcoil plan, S&T plus Emrakul has been lights out vs bad match-ups. Not sure why others don't like it.

TheProfessor
04-25-2011, 02:57 AM
Will try to keep this brief :D (sorry was on vacation for a while no Internet + TV for a few days needed to regain my sanity lol)

@Keys -- Wonderful idea on the trasmute artifact tech package. I actually read about this in Eternal Central during my research on Painter/G-stone. However I did not mention it at all because of the fact that I have not found any recorded decks reaching top 8 (in any tournament) that utilized this type of tech. Not saying its bad. But maybe it hasnt been tested enough yet? Anybody here wanna test this?

In Eldrazi/NO show matchups game 1, I would strategicaly give them the win and try to win quick G2 and G3's with GY hate SB. Especially in particular areas where time limits are strictly followed. I need to watch pros fight decks like this to get a better feel, as usually G1 has the lowest win% so if i think he has the advantage i'll scoop before revealing more of my deck to him.

@nayon -- Sadly its an uphill battle. Not impossible. However it requires you to beat down your opponent to death with a painter and goblins :p (not exactly a sexy win but a win nevertheless...) I think Alex has experienced this before? Usually if your expecting a heavy emrakul field try to MD X 1 Crypt. (in replacement of a LED or land)

@Sroncor1 -- I actually tried MD wurmcoils in my meta for a week. It helped quite a bit as it allowed me to use "tricks" (i was careful to not use the word "combo" as you are correct in that respect) against Sui Black decks and fast weenie decks. While it is not exactly an optimal solution it does provide me wins when my painter finish does not become available in Game 1.

Personally I think Imperial variants are probably the best versions out there. However the main reason painter/grindstone works so well is that the Meta is usually unprepared to handle it.

@Sloshthedark-- Totally agree

@Doomsday -- Well as much as possible we would like to play arround with the deck. Its good. But we want it better :D Which would also mean trying out different ideas. Legacy is a wonderful meta :D If we dont evolve others will surpass us :p

By the way did anybody here test out the Transmute tech?

Has everybody seen this article from Starcity? http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21670_Too_Much_Information_Legacys_Last_Four.html

Lots of wonderful information here for staticians and analysts :D I get goosebumps reading this data. I think were going to have trouble. Seems that painter does very well in the past couple of legacy tourneys. But because of that people might start copying the deck... making the meta evolve against us T.T

Sintheros
04-25-2011, 06:25 AM
So lets just say NPH is out. Does the deck suddenly look something like...

4 Painter
4 Grindstone
3 LED
3 Opal
4 Top

4 Welder

4 Brainstorm
4 MMS
4 Force
4 Intuition

5 Fetches
1 Island
4 Volc Island
3 Tomb
2 City
4 Seat
3 Furnace

(For the unobservant, that's -2 MD REBs, -1 Trinket Mage, -the 2nd mage/Misdirection, +4 MMS)


Also, for what its worth, I hate casting Force in this deck if Painter isn't in play. Removing any other blue card sucks. Brainstorm and Intuition are far too good to drop to Force.

Sloshthedark
04-25-2011, 12:17 PM
@Doomsday

I said I haven't, i tried only counterbalances, which was usually a dead card due to its CC, so I'm skeptic about the TA for this reason but I know both would be played under different conditions and board positions... I would really love to play it, and for sure I will try every option, but it will make deck more fun and a bit worse I feel.. If you play it and like then do so! Mtg is not about playing generic lists (I hope so), I never play standard lists and have my own take on Painter from my previous experience and tuned to my meta, it's a bit different and I'm comfortable with it


@Professor
I'm happy to be mostly unaffected by whatever is on the Starcity to read other than top 16, as European scene plays under different rules a bit (and is considered more "competitive", at least by the europeans) and you face minor decks more often.. On the other hand, I'm a bit sad about mr. Kwan winning the SCG, its not as I would not like him or his play, but its not good for the archetype, Painter is not the best combo of all the time and can be beaten quite easily by experienced player, and the popularity creates experienced players or at least familiar with the archetype and get prepared for it... forget the times when you played Grindstone and half of the people had to read the card...
Still I'm surprised how good Painter went in the statistics...

@Sintheros

I think its not be better in theory, make proxies, test it...

the whole Misstep thing is overrated all over the web in my opinion, I think it will be use extensively at the start then part of the mix in the counter suite and end up with the same role as spell pierce in blue decks - marginal use maindeck, mostly just extending boarding strategies and maybe can somehow balance the die-roll advantage at least I hope so..

If it could replace Force, I'm 100% in...

ivanpei
04-25-2011, 08:44 PM
IMO we should not totaly cut REBs from the maindeck. But with Misstep, hmm it's tough. I think a 2/2 split with REB is ok as REB is just so flexible and can deal with nightmare cards like Revoker (God I hate that card).


I've always felt that Show and Tell/Emrakul is an absolutely terrible sideboard plan, especially given how bad it is against what you're already weak against: Other decks packing Emrakul.

Why doesn't the deck pack a combination of more red Blasts and Llawan, Cephalid Empress, who with Painter Servant locks down the opponent's ability to play creature spells? Then with enough Blasts for counter backup, it's pretty easy for Painter and Llawan to just swing for the win over a few turns if you can't get the combo off.

I think the LLawan + Blasts plan is a great idea. Sure Emmy is great against Show and Tell decks but Painter is not well designed to run the show and tell plan in general. Welder, LED, opal, painter all do not have synergies with Show and Tell. Alexander Kwan wrote in his tourney report that he rarely boarded SNT in and prefered some other method of winning as the plan is not that great. Painter+Llawan+ Blasts seems like an excellent way of kicking ass postboard. So -3 SNT, -3 Emmy, +3 Llawan + 3 Flex.

Don't forget that with Painter on the board, when your opponent SNT an Emmy into play, you can drop your LLawan into play too. PAWNED! This plan just seems like a much better postboard choice. The fact that Llawan alone pawns merfolk is awesome. Playing Llawan with Painter gives you an alternate combo so you don't die to Revoker/Needles. Seems good.

keys
04-25-2011, 09:20 PM
In Eldrazi/NO show matchups game 1, I would strategicaly give them the win and try to win quick G2 and G3's with GY hate SB. Especially in particular areas where time limits are strictly followed. I need to watch pros fight decks like this to get a better feel, as usually G1 has the lowest win% so if i think he has the advantage i'll scoop before revealing more of my deck to him.


Just want to point out that graveyard hate is not enough to beat NO Show if they have 2 Progenitus in their deck. You won't have the opportunity to use Crypt in response to Emrakul triggers because the 2 Progenitus will throw the game in an infinite loop and it will be a draw. In order to make this work, you would need to assemble Painter + Grindstone + Crypt, be at 11+ life, and let your opponent resolve Natural Order for Progenitus. They will mill their entire deck except for one Progenitus, giving them one turn to attack before decking (assuming they don't have a way to discard).

Patrunkenphat7
04-25-2011, 09:33 PM
I'm thinking about trying out this deck at the GP.
A few questions for you guys:
Do you think Misstep will hurt this deck at all?
How do you beat Chalice for 1?
Are the win percentages as good as they were in the Starcity events? In other words, have people on this forum been having high success with this deck in other tournaments?

ivanpei
04-25-2011, 09:49 PM
Chalice is rough, especially on T1. The only out is probably Force. Postboard, some bounce might help. Or you can just go painter +llawan/ Show And Tell plan. It's nice to have alternative plans postboard. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that just because we can run misstep, it doesn't hurt us. Misstep does hurt us! And when Merfolk has + 4 cards against us, we are going to have problems for sure.

TheProfessor
04-26-2011, 03:59 AM
@keys -- Oh yes I realize and know that as well regarding the loop thing. However in most variants of NO Show should only have 1 Progenitals. But yes that would be the best way to defeat the progenitus problem.

Which was one of the reason why I MB'd Wurmcoils in my meta, it was because we a few NO Shows pop up and I was forced to race against him. He beats me.. I beat him etc. Usually ended in my favor :D

@Patrunkenphat7 -- That is actually hard. Ivanpei actually describes one of the best ways of handling that. Knowing your meta is part of the solution. On my SB I had hurkyls recall and echoing truths available to me just incase of chalice. But again.. you cant prepare for everything.

Statistics are decieving, in the Starcity event you will notice that there were very FEW painter decks that played. The main reason for success was because it was a UNKNOWN variety. If decks actually prepared for Painter/G-stone it would make it very hard to win.

@ivanpei -- Actually thats an interesting SB option :D Wonderful idea... when i playtest i'll try that out. Have you tried out the deck in your meta?

RE: Misstep...
well... personally i know this card will affect the entire legacy meta alot. Imagine decks without blue having access to a counter? Crazy.. but thats what makes it nice :D I guess we'll probably insert this in the MD and probably see. Again its all about the skill of the player, this just add another variable right? :D

Patrunkenphat7
04-26-2011, 04:35 PM
Hello again,
I am going to start playtesting this deck soon for a possible GP deck (which is obviously after the new set comes out). I was wondering what people think about this list, as I have no experience with this deck yet. I am still not sure how good Misstep will be in this deck, but it seems good at stopping other Missteps as well as other obnoxious disruption. Is 3 the right number? I really have no idea.

Artifacts
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Artifact Creatures
4 Painter's Servant

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Sorceries
1 Transmute Artifact

Legendary Artifacts
3 Mox Opal

Artifact Lands
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Misdirection

ivanpei
04-26-2011, 08:51 PM
Have you tried out the deck in your meta?

RE: Misstep...
well... personally i know this card will affect the entire legacy meta alot. Imagine decks without blue having access to a counter? Crazy.. but thats what makes it nice :D I guess we'll probably insert this in the MD and probably see. Again its all about the skill of the player, this just add another variable right? :D

I'm unsure what number of missteps is right, but we HAVE to play it. I'm also of the opinion that we should drop some LEDs if we run Missteps. Reason being that REB/Misstep/Force are pretty bad with LED. The deck can win perfectly without LED, so maybe -2 LED, - 2 Trinket, + 4 Missteps. LEDs give you plenty of speed so you can beat aggro handily but with a disruption heavy hand, you can Misstep their T1 Vial, Lackey, Necatl etc etc, slowing them down somewhat.

I'm not sure if just playing 1 LED is the right call as you need to power Opal/Welder but the format is going to revolve around mistepping misteps and we cannot afford not to run a full set of Missteps.

Sintheros
04-26-2011, 09:08 PM
There needs to be at least 1 LED so you can intuition for LED/Painter/Stone with welder in play and just win.

ivanpei
04-26-2011, 09:22 PM
Yup, we must have at least 1, I'm just unsure if we should run 1,2 or 3. I currently run 3 because I love the speed, but with Missteps, I think we can drop to just 1 copy. So -2 Trinkets, -2 LED, + 4 Misstep. Done.

Sloshthedark
04-27-2011, 03:14 AM
@Patrunkenphat7 - you can't beat Chalice on 1 without force or welder in play while not playing the TA =), in older versions it was usually solved by trinket mage -> EE, this deck has none... btw. with the whole misstep thing be ready some people revive their chalice aggro decks and weird new Mud aggro will follow

Have anyone of you EVER tried dropping some lands? hello everyone, does anyone realize it's the only combo deck with so many lands aroud.. I play 20 - its completely ok and horraay you got 1-2 slots for your missteps...

keys
04-27-2011, 02:40 PM
[B]Have anyone of you EVER tried dropping some lands? hello everyone, does anyone realize it's the only combo deck with so many lands aroud.. I play 20 - its completely ok and horraay you got 1-2 slots for your missteps...

That is an option I guess. I would probably take out a fetch/Volcanic and an LED. You never want to see more than 1 LED a game, and even then it's not necessary. I wouldn't cut any Opals, however, that card is one of my favorites.

Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact yet? It's been pretty nutty for me. It's like a Green Sun's Zenith for artifacts! They have to counter the Transmute or you're home free, AND it beats Chalice @ 1. Or you can use it like an entomb with Welder in play and not pay the mana cost. It also has the side effect of powering up Welder if, say, you've got double Top and no artifacts in your grave. I've never had trouble paying UU, and there is always a redundant artifact or artifact land to sacrifice. You guys should give it a try.

I might get a chance to test out the Wurmcoil SB plan at a tourney this weekend as well. We'll see.

Di
04-27-2011, 03:10 PM
Has anyone tried out Transmute Artifact yet? It's been pretty nuts for me. It's like a Demonic Tutor, except better because it puts the card directly on the battlefield! This means they have to counter the Transmute or you're home free. It also has the side effect of powering up Welder if, say, you've got double Top. I've never had trouble paying UU, and there is always a redundant artifact to sacrifice. You guys should give it a try.

I might get a chance to test out the Wurmcoil SB plan this weekend as well. We'll see.


I've been running a Transmute Artifact-based list for the last 5-6 months and I think it's insane. The card is freaking Tinker for crying out loud, and makes the deck function incredibly well. I personally think it's better than Intuition as it not only puts the card into play, but also doesn't require Welder and can also put multiple win conditions into play and doesn't require multiple pieces (namely Wurmcoil Engine). The UU can be difficult on occasion, but if the deck is built properly then it should function fine.

My personal list abuses Transmute Artifact to the max, and offers more flexibility than any Painter list I've seen. It really opens you up to a lot more options and I think it's the direction the deck wants to go. Here's the list (just note this hasn't been updated post-NPH, so Mental Misstep hasn't been thrown into the mix yet)

4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage

3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will

4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Meekstone
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Seal of Cleansing



As you can see this list has some serious differences between it and a traditional U/R Painter build, but they're there mainly because of this being based on Transmute Artifact. I'll go over the differences/slots below:

Transmute Artifact v. Intuition: I still run Intuition as a 1of, sometimes as a 2of over the Trinket Mage, but I cut down on them in favor of TA because I feel Transmute has a far more powerful effect in this deck. Intuition is heavily reliant on having a Goblin Welder in play to get full use out of it, otherwise it's a tutor that dumps all the rest of a combo piece into the yard, which sucks if the card you tutor for gets countered. Transmute's drawback is minimal given the number of artifacts, and is insane when dumping Grim Monoliths. The fact that it puts the card directly into play is huge as well, as it allows you to combo quicker. At the worst it Entombs something so you could Welder it into play, which does allow you to run something like Sundering Titan if you choose to. Transmute also allows you to run a minor toolbox for dire situations, which is important in certain matchups. Intuition is still good in the deck, but I feel using TA is a better option.

3 Painter/Grindstone: Given we have 4 Tinker and don't have as much reliance on Intuition, we don't need to run full sets of these. This frees up slots for additional needs, fair and simple.

Thopter/Sword: I added this combo to give the deck versatility, not to mention it's downright insane. Traditional Painter lists can't win through Emrakul game 1, and Zoo is a pain in the ass for them. ThopterSword bypasses this, and also is great against other aggro decks or decks that can remove Painter easily. It's incredibly easy to assemble and gives the deck an entirely new dimension.

Wurmcoil Engine: I initially had this in the sideboard as an out to Null Rod and aggro matchups, but I found myself boarding it in almost every match so I just added it to the maindeck. Wurmcoil is flat out insane. It allows you to use Transmute by itself without other combo pieces, completely stops aggro in its tracks, is bonkers with Goblin Welder, provides the deck with a means of winning through crap like Null Rod, and it also good at getting around stuff like Pernicious Deed. It's by far one of the most underrated cards in the deck.

Ensnaring Bridge: Half the format is cold to the card, and you can tutor it up with ease. One of the best control cards in the format.

Pithing Needle: Decent as a bullet in the maindeck, and additional copies in the board to handle whatever crap is out there.

Sensei's Divining Top: I only run 2, most builds run more, I ended up cutting my extra copies in favor of other blue cards to help support Force of Will while still maintaining a good draw spell count.

Mox Opal: Obvious.

Grim Monolith: Monolith is one of the better reasons to run Transmute Artifact in the first place. It's incredible acceleration for the Painter combo and is ridiculous when sacrificed to TA. Plus, leading off with it off an Ancient Tomb can be utterly ridiculous.

Lion's Eye Diamond: I only run this as a 1of because this build plays differently than normal lists, and instead tries to utilize Monolith for mana instead. However, it's incredibly good as a Trinket Mage and Transmute target to open up fast kills, and is also randomly good at dumping your hand for Bridge or to get Welder going.

Brainstorm: Obvious.

Goblin Welder: Obvious.

Trinket Mage: I cut this guy down to 1 because most of the time he just sucks. He's 3 mana and is limited what he finds, so a lot of the time Intuition is better. However, I keep a 1/1 Intuition/Trinket Mage split because of the number of bullets that come out of the sideboard.

Thirst for Knowledge: I wound up cutting the 3-4 SDT for these because I found too many instances where I'd need to fill my hand back up because the deck gets in topdeck mode far too easily. This is the best draw spell behind Brainstorm for the deck and opens up busted plays. These could very well be Intuitions, but I prefer to have the ability to keep card advantage up to maximize my options.

Force of Will: obvious.


Manabase:

Ancient Tomb: Due to the heavy color needs of the deck I trimmed these down to 3. They're awesome in the deck but having 4+ opens too many times where I'm waiting for a 2nd blue source and sitting with Tombs and Great Furnaces. I still find 3 is good enough to have them enough to make a difference though.

7 Artifact lands: Obvious. Ancient Den is worse than the 3rd Great Furnace because you can't cast Welder off it, and if you could search up Den to cast something white you could just as easily search Mox Opal instead.

5 fetchlands: Obvious.

4 Duals, 1 Island: The Volcs are obvious, the Tundra helps cast Thopter Foundry and some sb stuff, Island is to dodge Wastelands.




I could go through the board too, but that's likely changing now thanks to NPH, so we can ignore that part.


Otherwise, I encourage people to start giving Transmute Artifact a try. It just opens the deck up so much more design-wise and play-wise, and is just broken as hell.

keys
04-27-2011, 05:35 PM
I like some of the ideas, but I think you give up a lot of speed and consistency by running only 3/3 Painter/Stone and adding so many alternate win cons to the maindeck. Thopter Sword really seems like a SB plan to me, if anything.

But I agree with you about Transmute Artifact being better than Intuition sometimes. If I stick with the Wurmcoil sideboard, I'll probably cut one.

TheProfessor
04-28-2011, 02:44 AM
@ DI -- I LIKE!!! waw if you can test this further and get me results of your tourneys I can write a primer on this :D haha My only comment is that stretching into a 3rd color is kinda not the best way to go especially in an environment that can punish you for that. However that is only my opinion :D

Do you have any testing results? Vs particular decks. Usual turn kill?

Love the flexibility by the way :D

@keys-- I'm with you on the Thopter/sword... seems a tad conditional. I wonder who can test this? I'm gonna get myself some transmutes from e-bay hehe :D I think we gotta use the synergy painter has REB and PYRO's? Do you think this list can support that (lets say we remove ... Thirst,thopter, sword,.. and ??)


@Sloshthedark -- Hm... duno about dropping lands? I mean did dropping lands help? Anybody try this? (drop 1-2 lands for something else?)

ivanpei
04-28-2011, 03:16 AM
I'm of the opinion that 1-2 Transmutes are good but intuition is just the nuts IMO. It's a triple tutor with Welder on the Table. Don't forget that Intuition gets better after board because it finds anything while Transmutes just finds artifacts.

I find Transmute + Monolith Package very interesting. This along with a a couple of Wurmcoils is potentially powerful because you can potentially can go T2 Grim monolith into a T3 Transmute for a Wurmcoil. You can then chain transmutes for even more wurmcoils + wurmcoil babies. This is obviously very different than the intuition lists and the whole deck has to be rebuilt from scratch. Could be an interesting experiment and could help us play around Mental Misstep.

We might end up with a MUD-esque painter deck?

4 Seat
3 Furnace
3 Volc
5 Fetch
1 Island
3 Tomb
2 City

3 Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Wurmcoil
4 Welder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
2 Intuition
3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 Force
2 REB

Grim monolith is actually a pretty solid card. You can use it to "store mana" for activating Grind later and it's ridiculous with Transmute artifact. If you draw Wurmcoil, you can actually hard cast it with the help of a Grim Monolith or just power it out with a bunch of Sol lands.

Di
04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
@ DI -- I LIKE!!! waw if you can test this further and get me results of your tourneys I can write a primer on this :D haha My only comment is that stretching into a 3rd color is kinda not the best way to go especially in an environment that can punish you for that. However that is only my opinion :D

Do you have any testing results? Vs particular decks. Usual turn kill?

Love the flexibility by the way :D

@keys-- I'm with you on the Thopter/sword... seems a tad conditional. I wonder who can test this? I'm gonna get myself some transmutes from e-bay hehe :D I think we gotta use the synergy painter has REB and PYRO's? Do you think this list can support that (lets say we remove ... Thirst,thopter, sword,.. and ??)


@Sloshthedark -- Hm... duno about dropping lands? I mean did dropping lands help? Anybody try this? (drop 1-2 lands for something else?)

I wouldn't really consider the 3rd color "stretching" because there are so few white cards in the deck, and the effects on the manabase are minor, being a single Tundra over a 4th Volcanic. You already run 5 fetchlands so the color requirements are irrelevant as they all tap for blue anyway. Plus the other cards you get from white (Cannonist, Seal of Cleansing) are worth it as combo matchups can be difficult and Seal is there to handle Null Rods in addition to Wurmcoil, but can also be good against Counterbalance, the mirror, equipment, Humility, etc.

They've earned their slots imo, especially ThopterSword. Having that flexibility gives the deck a reasonable means to beat matchups game1 that it has no business beating, like Emrakul decks or Zoo. Normal UR lists CAN NOT win game 1 against Emrakul unless there's some stroke of luck where they beat them to death with Welders and Painters, and Zoo is incredibly hard because keeping Painter alive is so difficult. The trade off to give the deck another really strong win condition far outweighs the fact that you don't run a full set of Painter/Grindstone. Plus, the fact that Transmute Artifact turns anything into a combo piece really allows you not to run the extra copies. It doesn't hinder the consistency at all, and running a full set of Transmutes arguably increases it.

My tournament results are limited because I bring a different deck to most events I play with, but I managed a 4-2-2 record at SCG: Dallas (both draws were unintentional and had me in winning position, losses were to Belcher and Burn), and I've won one local tournament and top4'd another with the deck out of the 3 times I've run it in events.

Average uninterrupted kill is turn 3-4, but I've done numerous turn 2 kills and the rare turn 1 kill. I think it's worth going off slightly slower to increase the consistency of the deck, not have it go all-in on a Painter only to have it killed, and to not have the deck stuck with bad cards like LED in the middle of the game where it's essentially useless.

Between playing in tournaments and testing I have a pretty good idea on its matchup vs. the entire metagame, although this also doesnt account for Mental Misstep. Here is a list of matchups that I've played against:


Merfolk - By far and wide my favorite matchup. Cursecatchers are very weak, you run a lot of bombs, and they are pretty cold to a resolved Welder or Ensnaring Bridge. They also lack any sort of removal so Welders and Painters have a ball. Blasts out of the board help, as can additional Needles or Meekstone.

Goblins - Goblins can be harder to handle than Merfolk because they can randomly open with Lackey and run you over, but they also have little in the way to stop you. You threaten a turn 3 kill pretty easily and they can also do very little about an Ensnaring Bridge or ThopterSword combo. Wurmcoil is also insane here too.

Zoo - Zoo will always be a tough matchup for a Painter deck. Lots of burn, Path, Pridemage, etc, with a decent clock is tough. ThopterSword is huge here as they're cold to it without a Pridemage, and Wurmcoil is insane if you can protect it. They generally reserve their removal for Welders and Painters, so Wurmcoil can go unchecked fairly easily. But either way I don't like this matchup, but Mental Misstep will help.

Junk - If they have access to Pernicious Deeds, then this can be rough. Pernicious Deed is brutal. Otherwise, I'm okay with playing this matchup. They have a decent amount of removal, but discard doesn't hurt you nearly as much as it hurts other decks because you can drop your hand so quickly. Between Welders, Painters, and Ensnaring Bridge, they generally can't match the amount of stuff you throw at them. I'd say the matchup is slightly favorable, but again adding Deeds in the mix throws things off a bit.

Ichorid - Game 1 can be tough if they're able to race you, but you can still easily turn 3 them. It's essentially a toss up there. Game 2 is in your favor because you can recur graveyard hate with Welders and find it incredibly easy with all your tutoring power. ThopterSword is also very good against them as well, as is Ensnaring Bridge if you manage to trim your hand low enough.

Bant - Depending on the version this can go from even to favorable. Most lists only run 1-2 copies of Qasali Pridemage for GSZ, so you can generally go off safely, but they can also threaten Natural Order which can be rough if you're not able to secure a Transmute early. If they run Trygon Predator out of the board it can be a nightmare, but fortunately you can Blast them easily. Otherwise they only have 4 FOW, 4 StP, and a few artifact removal to handle your suite of Welders and combo pieces. It can go either way but you generally can outmatch them with bombs.

Team America - I currently like this matchup because they have very little removal, but adding Mental Misstep will be more difficult to resolve Welders. Otherwise, Welders are a nightmare for them, and they have a very difficult time winning through Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, or Wurmcoil Engine. They can hit your manabase a bit which can hurt and cost you games, and they can board in Pernicious Deeds, but the matchup can go either way. Overall I'd say it's even.

CounterTop - Despite Counterbalance being an issue for the deck, it's really the only card I worry about in these matchups. Outside of Counterbalance they can't put much pressure on you nor can they disrupt your gameplan very easily. Post-board you're trading additional removal from them for Blasts from you, and I think we have an edge in card advantage thanks to our tutoring power.

Lands - This matchup is essentially a bye. They have a lot of dead cards, and theiir only outs are having early recurring Wastelands and Ports, but they have nothing in the way to stop your shenanigens. Needle hurts them tremendously as does Crypt. They could possibly bring in Chalice of the Void or Leyline of Sanctity out of the board which can be annoying, but generally I've always been happy to sit across from this.

High Tide - You run just as much disruption as they do game 1, and have a faster win condition. However, they can outdraw you easily, and Cunning Wish -> Rebuild is a pain, but it's fairly even game 1. Post-board, you have REB, Cannonist, and Mindbreak Trap (which will likely become Misstep). You annihilate them post-board, as you still have a faster win condition, AND have triple the amount of disruption they do.

Tendrils - They go off faster than you do and have decent protection. It's certainly unfavorable if you're not able to secure an early Cannonist or win condition. Force of Will helps as will Mental Misstep but these matchups are still difficult.

Death & Taxes/White-based Vial decks - These typically do very little as far as bother you. They can have Swords, Mangara, maybe Pridemages, etc, but their removal is scarce enough to put a dent in you, much like Goblins. I'll play against these decks all day long.

Burn - You can essentially throw out the Painter plan here as they'll always be able to kill it. And Welders. And they'll have blasts. Fortunately, you have ThopterSword and Wurmcoil Engine, which can't be dealt with so easily. Still not a favorable matchup though, and I mention it because it keeps popping up at large events and is decent against a lot of the upper- tier.

HokusSchmokus
04-28-2011, 05:15 PM
I've been running a Transmute Artifact-based list for the last 5-6 months and I think it's insane. The card is freaking Tinker for crying out loud, and makes the deck function incredibly well. I personally think it's better than Intuition as it not only puts the card into play, but also doesn't require Welder and can also put multiple win conditions into play and doesn't require multiple pieces (namely Wurmcoil Engine). The UU can be difficult on occasion, but if the deck is built properly then it should function fine.

My personal list abuses Transmute Artifact to the max, and offers more flexibility than any Painter list I've seen. It really opens you up to a lot more options and I think it's the direction the deck wants to go. Here's the list (just note this hasn't been updated post-NPH, so Mental Misstep hasn't been thrown into the mix yet)

4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage

3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Tranmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will

4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Meekstone
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Seal of Cleansing



As you can see this list has some serious differences between it and a traditional U/R Painter build, but they're there mainly because of this being based on Transmute Artifact. I'll go over the differences/slots below:

Transmute Artifact v. Intuition: I still run Intuition as a 1of, sometimes as a 2of over the Trinket Mage, but I cut down on them in favor of TA because I feel Transmute has a far more powerful effect in this deck. Intuition is heavily reliant on having a Goblin Welder in play to get full use out of it, otherwise it's a tutor that dumps all the rest of a combo piece into the yard, which sucks if the card you tutor for gets countered. Transmute's drawback is minimal given the number of artifacts, and is insane when dumping Grim Monoliths. The fact that it puts the card directly into play is huge as well, as it allows you to combo quicker. At the worst it Entombs something so you could Welder it into play, which does allow you to run something like Sundering Titan if you choose to. Transmute also allows you to run a minor toolbox for dire situations, which is important in certain matchups. Intuition is still good in the deck, but I feel using TA is a better option.

3 Painter/Grindstone: Given we have 4 Tinker and don't have as much reliance on Intuition, we don't need to run full sets of these. This frees up slots for additional needs, fair and simple.

Thopter/Sword: I added this combo to give the deck versatility, not to mention it's downright insane. Traditional Painter lists can't win through Emrakul game 1, and Zoo is a pain in the ass for them. ThopterSword bypasses this, and also is great against other aggro decks or decks that can remove Painter easily. It's incredibly easy to assemble and gives the deck an entirely new dimension.

Wurmcoil Engine: I initially had this in the sideboard as an out to Null Rod and aggro matchups, but I found myself boarding it in almost every match so I just added it to the maindeck. Wurmcoil is flat out insane. It allows you to use Transmute by itself without other combo pieces, completely stops aggro in its tracks, is bonkers with Goblin Welder, provides the deck with a means of winning through crap like Null Rod, and it also good at getting around stuff like Pernicious Deed. It's by far one of the most underrated cards in the deck.

Ensnaring Bridge: Half the format is cold to the card, and you can tutor it up with ease. One of the best control cards in the format.

Pithing Needle: Decent as a bullet in the maindeck, and additional copies in the board to handle whatever crap is out there.

Sensei's Divining Top: I only run 2, most builds run more, I ended up cutting my extra copies in favor of other blue cards to help support Force of Will while still maintaining a good draw spell count.

Mox Opal: Obvious.

Grim Monolith: Monolith is one of the better reasons to run Transmute Artifact in the first place. It's incredible acceleration for the Painter combo and is ridiculous when sacrificed to TA. Plus, leading off with it off an Ancient Tomb can be utterly ridiculous.

Lion's Eye Diamond: I only run this as a 1of because this build plays differently than normal lists, and instead tries to utilize Monolith for mana instead. However, it's incredibly good as a Trinket Mage and Transmute target to open up fast kills, and is also randomly good at dumping your hand for Bridge or to get Welder going.

Brainstorm: Obvious.

Goblin Welder: Obvious.

Trinket Mage: I cut this guy down to 1 because most of the time he just sucks. He's 3 mana and is limited what he finds, so a lot of the time Intuition is better. However, I keep a 1/1 Intuition/Trinket Mage split because of the number of bullets that come out of the sideboard.

Thirst for Knowledge: I wound up cutting the 3-4 SDT for these because I found too many instances where I'd need to fill my hand back up because the deck gets in topdeck mode far too easily. This is the best draw spell behind Brainstorm for the deck and opens up busted plays. These could very well be Intuitions, but I prefer to have the ability to keep card advantage up to maximize my options.

Force of Will: obvious.


Manabase:

Ancient Tomb: Due to the heavy color needs of the deck I trimmed these down to 3. They're awesome in the deck but having 4+ opens too many times where I'm waiting for a 2nd blue source and sitting with Tombs and Great Furnaces. I still find 3 is good enough to have them enough to make a difference though.

7 Artifact lands: Obvious. Ancient Den is worse than the 3rd Great Furnace because you can't cast Welder off it, and if you could search up Den to cast something white you could just as easily search Mox Opal instead.

5 fetchlands: Obvious.

4 Duals, 1 Island: The Volcs are obvious, the Tundra helps cast Thopter Foundry and some sb stuff, Island is to dodge Wastelands.




I could go through the board too, but that's likely changing now thanks to NPH, so we can ignore that part.


Otherwise, I encourage people to start giving Transmute Artifact a try. It just opens the deck up so much more design-wise and play-wise, and is just broken as hell.
By far the most awesome Painter list I have tested yet! Huge props for creating that incredibly fun thing!
Di, if you made up your mind about Mental Misstep in the list or still need ideas , just PM me =)I am really looking forward to play this baby!

keys
04-28-2011, 07:43 PM
I'm of the opinion that 1-2 Transmutes are good but intuition is just the nuts IMO. It's a triple tutor with Welder on the Table. Don't forget that Intuition gets better after board because it finds anything while Transmutes just finds artifacts.

I find Transmute + Monolith Package very interesting. This along with a a couple of Wurmcoils is potentially powerful because you can potentially can go T2 Grim monolith into a T3 Transmute for a Wurmcoil. You can then chain transmutes for even more wurmcoils + wurmcoil babies. This is obviously very different than the intuition lists and the whole deck has to be rebuilt from scratch. Could be an interesting experiment and could help us play around Mental Misstep.

We might end up with a MUD-esque painter deck?

4 Seat
3 Furnace
3 Volc
5 Fetch
1 Island
3 Tomb
2 City

3 Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Wurmcoil
4 Welder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
2 Intuition
3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 Force
2 REB

Grim monolith is actually a pretty solid card. You can use it to "store mana" for activating Grind later and it's ridiculous with Transmute artifact. If you draw Wurmcoil, you can actually hard cast it with the help of a Grim Monolith or just power it out with a bunch of Sol lands.

I REALLY like the way this looks. You've folded the Wurmcoil SB plan into the maindeck but it retains some consistency. Although I think I'd rather have the 4th Painter over the 4th Monolith, just because it's what players tend to target the most, and it powers up REB.

The board could be something like this:

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Monolith
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Jester's Cap/Ensnaring Bridge/Ethersworn Canonist

ivanpei
04-28-2011, 08:23 PM
I REALLY like the way this looks. You've folded the Wurmcoil SB plan into the maindeck but it retains some consistency. Although I think I'd rather have the 4th Painter over the 4th Monolith, just because it's what players tend to target the most, and it powers up REB.

The board could be something like this:

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Monolith
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Jester's Cap/Ensnaring Bridge/Ethersworn Canonist

Thanks, this is gonna take some testing. I actually really like duplicant, it RFG's their best creature and gives you a big body. You can Transmute it later for a something else like wurmcoil. I'm not sure about the Sundering titan though. It seems uncastable without Transmute + Monster. I agree that the 4th Grim should be a painter. Could be very interesting!

keys
04-28-2011, 08:46 PM
Thanks, this is gonna take some testing. I actually really like duplicant, it RFG's their best creature and gives you a big body. You can Transmute it later for a something else like wurmcoil. I'm not sure about the Sundering titan though. It seems uncastable without Transmute + Monster. I agree that the 4th Grim should be a painter. Could be very interesting!

There are at least five ways to get robots into play:

1. Hard cast with Tomb/City + Monolith/Opal
2. Transmute Monolith floating mana
3. Transmute a different robot
4. Intuition or Transmute (not paying) then Weld
5. Grind off the top, Weld

1 & 2 are obviously harder to do with Titan, but not impossible.

There are lot of robots to choose from...

Wurmcoil
Steel Hellkite
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Duplicant
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Inkwell

even Mindslaver is an option

Patrunkenphat7
04-29-2011, 02:07 AM
I'm going to test Shattering Spree in my SB, as it will hopefully answer Chalice. Chalice is what I'm really worried about at the GP as far as this deck goes, and this card provides nice splash hate for the increasingly popular Affinity lists and artifact decks. It's nice that a single Shattering Spree for 3 mana can kill both a Trinisphere and a Chalice at the same time. :)

TkDodo
04-29-2011, 12:48 PM
I'm going to test Shattering Spree in my SB, as it will hopefully answer Chalice. Chalice is what I'm really worried about at the GP as far as this deck goes, and this card provides nice splash hate for the increasingly popular Affinity lists and artifact decks. It's nice that a single Shattering Spree for 3 mana can kill both a Trinisphere and a Chalice at the same time. :)

Just a short question on this: Does a replicated Shattering Spree actually dodge chalice@1 ? Isn't the cmc also 1 for each replicated copy?
I personally rely on Ingot Chewer to answer Chalice.

mchainmail
04-29-2011, 01:18 PM
Just a short question on this: Does a replicated Shattering Spree actually dodge chalice@1 ? Isn't the cmc also 1 for each replicated copy?
I personally rely on Ingot Chewer to answer Chalice.

Copies are put on the stack, not cast.

whienot
04-29-2011, 01:38 PM
Just a short question on this: Does a replicated Shattering Spree actually dodge chalice@1 ? Isn't the cmc also 1 for each replicated copy?

Just to clarify, Chalice of the Void triggers when you cast a spell. Yes, all the copies of Shattering Spree have a cmc of 1, but CoTV will only trigger for the original.

Destroying Angel
05-02-2011, 07:14 PM
I have been testing this deck extensively using Ken Briscoe's 14th place list from the Boston StarCity Open, which can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38049. A local player's extensive success with the deck encouraged me to learn the deck in order to better fight it. The sheer power of the deck, however, has convinced me to consider it a definite contender for my own selection.

Although the deck is quite consistent, I'm concerned with resolved permanent-based hate. While the deck can draw or tutor for additional painter's servants or grindstones or utilize goblin welder to recur pieces that have been countered or destroyed, a resolved null rod, pithing needle, chalice of the void, humility, or wheel of sun and moon, among others, can shut down the combo completely, blanking any future drawn peices. Currently, the deck can only answer a permanent by resolving painter's servant and then using a REB or Pyroblast. With only two in the main deck, Blasts cannot be intuitioned for and cannot preceed painter. At a recent small tournament I was playing against Natural Order Elves in the finals and my opponent managed to resolve an early wheel of the sun and moon through the light countermagic this deck packs. While I was able to win both games, this was only possible because the elves player presented only a minimal clock. Playing 43 lands against another player wielding U/R Painter, I was able to buy many, many turns free of resistance by landing a null rod, eventually forcing a concession. As the deck stands, permanent based disruption supported by any clock whatsoever presents a serious threat.

As such, I am considering the addition of bounce spells to the maindeck. The options are repeal, wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapour; each with different advantages. In order to utilize intuition 3 bounce spells appears to be the ideal number. Possible candidates for removal are the trinket mages, blasts, and potentially 1 of a combo piece - i.e. intuition. Doing so would reasonably cost the deck a degree of speed but add possibility to a number of formerly dreary board states.

Conversely, the addition of New Phyrexia to the format will bring with it the much over-hyped Mental Mistep. While this card does not solve all of our problems, it helps deal with a number of concerns, notably spell pierce and removal for painter's servant and goblin welder. Regrettably, the number of removable pieces is tightly limited and so Mental Misstep competes for slots with bounce spells.

Thoughts? Concerns? Brilliant, metagame-shattering additions to the deck?

keys
05-02-2011, 08:14 PM
Although the deck is quite consistent, I'm concerned with resolved permanent-based hate. While the deck can draw or tutor for additional painter's servants or grindstones or utilize goblin welder to recur pieces that have been countered or destroyed, a resolved null rod, pithing needle, chalice of the void, humility, or wheel of sun and moon, among others, can shut down the combo completely, blanking any future drawn peices. Currently, the deck can only answer a permanent by resolving painter's servant and then using a REB or Pyroblast. With only two in the main deck, Blasts cannot be intuitioned for and cannot preceed painter. At a recent small tournament I was playing against Natural Order Elves in the finals and my opponent managed to resolve an early wheel of the sun and moon through the light countermagic this deck packs. While I was able to win both games, this was only possible because the elves player presented only a minimal clock. Playing 43 lands against another player wielding U/R Painter, I was able to buy many, many turns free of resistance by landing a null rod, eventually forcing a concession. As the deck stands, permanent based disruption supported by any clock whatsoever presents a serious threat.

As such, I am considering the addition of bounce spells to the maindeck. The options are repeal, wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapour; each with different advantages. In order to utilize intuition 3 bounce spells appears to be the ideal number. Possible candidates for removal are the trinket mages, blasts, and potentially 1 of a combo piece - i.e. intuition. Doing so would reasonably cost the deck a degree of speed but add possibility to a number of formerly dreary board states.

Conversely, the addition of New Phyrexia to the format will bring with it the much over-hyped Mental Mistep. While this card does not solve all of our problems, it helps deal with a number of concerns, notably spell pierce and removal for painter's servant and goblin welder. Regrettably, the number of removable pieces is tightly limited and so Mental Misstep competes for slots with bounce spells.

Thoughts? Concerns? Brilliant, metagame-shattering additions to the deck?

Humility does not stop Painter's color changing ability because their effects are in different layers. That was changed with M10 rules. As far as the other permanent hate goes, yes, blasts are sometimes the only answer. But they are pretty good answers to everything, and you pack 6+ of them post board.

Nonetheless, I've been playing a list with maindeck Grim Monolith/Transmute Artifact/Wurmcoil Engine which adds an alternate win condition to the deck in case Painter/Grindstone gets hated out. It sacrifices some of the speed of LED, but it gives you more options to play around hate. Also, Monolith is much kinder with counters than LED is, and has a very powerful interaction with Transmute. Read up a few posts and you'll see.

EddieO
05-02-2011, 08:35 PM
Correct, humilty does nothing........my only thing more favorite than a player casting humilty thinking it wins them the game, is players searching up Sword of Fire and Ice.........and then burning all their mana trying equip it with painter out on blue. The other day I ran into the full tool box........I actually had 3 painters out, one on blue, one on black and one on white..........he had all 4 swords out....he cried. Especially when an untouchable Wildfire Emissary hit the table (was playing imperial version)

Later EddieO

piZZero
05-03-2011, 04:12 AM
Well, since I've also been playing the deck since the early days of Painter Servant, I believe this would be a right time to post my list. I top'd 4 in a local tournament with 60 players recently, here's the report (in spanish) if you wish to have a read (http://www.ingeniobcn.com/turbo-xxx-articulo-report)

TURBO XXX v2.0 - By Jordi Amat

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island

4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuition

SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 Sneak Attack
SB: 3 Blightsteel Colossus


Cheers :)

piZZero - Jordi Amat

Destroying Angel
05-03-2011, 04:29 AM
Thats definitely nice to know. I am kicking myself for missing the humility interaction but thank you for letting me know. As far as answers, my comments were directed specifically at the pure combo based version I cited above, which has two blasts main and four post board. I have seen your list, however, and it appears quite promising. I have played control-based painter decks in the past and appreciate the efforts to slow down the opponent. Wurmcoil offers a viable beatdown plan while ensnaring bridge - currently a very attractive option - shuts down aggro when your servant - welder gets outclassed, as it often will. I agree that the monolith is much less all-in against blue decks, though you potentially lose a turn against faster decks, needing to play the monolith. The changes in your list cannot be merely ported over, depending on the inclusion of transmute artifact, but certainly merit testing.

HokusSchmokus
05-06-2011, 07:53 AM
I am going to pilot Di's list with MD +1 Crypt SB +1 Peedle on Sunday.
Considering that Ichorid sees an awful lot of play around here and NPH coming up I expect even more Dredgers on Sunday.
Other big decks tend to be spiral tide and GW Stuff, so I think my deckchoice is very solid for this event. I am about to let you know how it turned out.

keys
05-08-2011, 07:46 AM
Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith
Turn 2 Seat of the Synod, Painter, Grindstone, tap Monolith, activate Grindstone with Force backup

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, play Grim Monolith
Turn 2 Volcanic Island, Tap Monolith, play Wurmcoil Engine
Turn 3 Volcanic Island, attack with Wurmcoil for 6, play Transmute Artifact sacrificing Wurmcoil, put two wurm tokens into play, search for and put Myr Battlesphere into play, then play Mox Opal and Goblin Welder

When people talk about doing broken things in Legacy, these are the kind of plays they mean.

I've reached a final decklist that includes the Wurmcoil backup plan maindeck, without diluting the primary combo or wasting sideboard spots. There are fewer turn 1 kills than Caleb Durwald's version, due to absence of LED, but the fundamental turn is still turn 3. Most importantly, the deck doesn't auto lose to Sneak Attack/NO Show and Burn game 1. Force of Will is also considerably better in the deck without LED. The sideboard is robust, since it isn't clogged up with worse combos, and wasted space like Emrakul.

U/R Transmute Painter

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition
2 Mental Misstep

4 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Mental Misstep
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spellskite


Some notes on card choices:

Grindstone - Never play less than 4. You might be tempted to play more tutors instead, but don't. Don't turn this deck into control with a combo kill. It's not one. Redundancy is speed. You can always shuffle them away, Transmute them, grind away your top 2 to dig with Top, or put robots into play with Welder. You can also grind away opponents cards in response to counterbalance trigger, any card that was just E-Tutored, or a flipped Top.

Sensei's Divining Top - Same as above. They shuffle away easy enough, and are so important at achieving metalcraft and searching for combo pieces.

Mox Opal - Don't play junk like Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond instead. Opal lets you play and spin Top on turn 1, and helps you keep mana open for blast or Misstep all game.

Grim Monolith - It is (1) acceleration, (2) Welder fodder, (3) Metalcraft enabler, and (4) Transmute food all wrapped up in one shiny package (see examples above).

Wurmcoil Engine / Myr Battlesphere - They are each reasonably hardcastable, especially with Monolith. Both are sickeningly good with Welder and Transmute, since they leave dudes behind. Wurmcoil is better at racing aggro, whereas Battlesphere is more resilient against Jace and Swords to Plowshares, so playing both provides a bit of flexibility. Transmuting one into the other is always fun.

Blue Spells:

Force of Will - It is the best defense for Painter there is. Granted, if you don't have a blue card and painter gets countered, it sucks. But lets be honest, this deck rolls blue control decks post board. I board it out for blasts and Needles against Merfolk.

Transmute Artifact - I've said this before, but Transmute is like Tinker in this deck. It gets a combo piece, often cheaper than Intuition does, and sacrifices less tempo if your opponent has a counter. It also combos with Monolith to tinker a robot, or entombs one if you have a Welder to dig it up. Four was just too many in testing, and three feels right.

Intuition - Better than Transmute with Welder in play, since it can grab both combo pieces, but resolving more than 1 of these in a game can be awkward. It's nice to have as backup.

Mental Misstep - These used to be blasts, but since we now have a way around Needle/Revoker on Grindstone with robot beats, they aren't quite as necessary game 1. Misstep helps with the blue count and is virtually as good as blast at protecting Painter against an unknown opponent.

Manabase:

Ancient Tomb - Went down to two because of Transmute's mana requirement, and because 22 land is slightly overkill. The life loss is also a liability against aggro, so this was an easy cut for me.

Sideboard:

Ensnaring Bridge - Decent against the format. Along with Duplicant, improves the NO Show/Sneak Attack matchup, but is vulnerable to Woodfall Primus/Terastodon.

Spellskite - Works like Kira in the deck, but has a number of advantages. Since it's an artifact, it has all the same synergies with Welder, Transmute, Opal, etc., and it's easier to cast. The 4 toughness is also nice, because it can soak up a lightning bolt per turn or block Nacatls.

Counterbalance - Fits nicely into the curve, and seals up the combo matchup. Also helpful against Burn and Zoo. I recently cut this in favor of Skite, but it's still a good option if combo is popular.


EDIT: Phew. Cleaned up the post a bit. Comments??

TheProfessor
05-10-2011, 02:26 AM
I like it!!! :D I'm just about to order the parts now online :D

I'll do extensive testing of this deck after I drop by singapore :D Might acquire some imperials down there for my other grindstone deck. (Yes i'm obsessed with grindstone decks.. dunno why...)

I actually research on the Counter balance idea (see BOM deck). Thanks for cleaning it up keys. i really want to comment but I havent not yet tested your variant so I would like to reserve comments until after i've done some testing :D Have you played this at any tourneys yet? or FNM?

Actually Turn 1 isnt too critical now as I feel Mental misstep will take care of that. I'm doing a few mental calcs on the curve and I think its better now. Always thought that LED's had too much of a drawback.

Finished reading the rules for the Transmute always thought the sacrifice was a requirement of the cost.. only to realize that i'm wrong :p Sacrifice is only applicable if the spell resolves O.O

Tempus
05-10-2011, 03:59 AM
Finished reading the rules for the Transmute always thought the sacrifice was a requirement of the cost.. only to realize that i'm wrong :p Sacrifice is only applicable if the spell resolves O.O

That changed recently...

I like this approach too. Played the deck at a local tournament and I forgot about Chalice @ 1, which is kinda annoying. With transmute you can easily play around that, loving it.

Di
05-10-2011, 09:22 AM
I think it's a mistake to omit LED entirely in a Transmute-based list. It turns Transmute Artifact into a Black Lotus in some situations, which is huge when going off on two lands or on turn 3 when you played the 2nd combo piece as well or whatever. It happens quite often. LED also makes Intuition much better, and is integral to going off easily with it in conjunction with Welder. The Painter/Grindstone/LED pile with Welder in play is generally the best play you can make with Intuition on turn 2/3, as it enables you to combo off both without having 3 lands in play or through Wasteland.

I'd personally cut the 21st land for it, but I'm sure you could find otherwise. I also think you could shift the maindeck Blasts to the side in favor of Mental Missteps. It's just a better card for the slot given it isn't as narrow, and counters StP aimed on Welder within the first few turns. Plus it'd support your dangerously low blue count for Force of Will. Factoring Painter into that is a mistake because half the time Force is there to help Painter get into play in the first place. With only 13 blue cards I see some serious issues with the consistency of Force in your list.

@ Counterbalance in the side idea:

I tested this for a while and discussed this with a few people, although a majority of my testing had it in the maindeck, and although I found it okay, I thought it was a bit clunky. It's decent in the matchups you listed, but outside combo, there are other, better uses for slots. Sure, it's great against burn, but so is a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, or the ThopterSword combo, or hell even Leyline of Sanctity (which is decent against combo as well). It's okay against Zoo, but if you're on the draw it's practically dead as they already have 2-3 creatures in play by the time you stick it, not to mention you lose some speed and consistency by siding them in, so you aren't able to race them as often as you normally would when they're hitting you for 5 a turn starting turn 2-3. Otherwise, I'm not really sure where you'd want to board them. They're bad against other aggro matchups (Merfolk, Goblins), our curve doesn't support it well enough for midrange aggro-control decks like Junk as we can't reliably counter Knight of the Reliquary or Wasteland, and against blue decks we have 100 blasts so they're unnecessary. But if you're really looking to go that route, then I'd consider swapping the 4th Tomb/City for another blue source, because you need to get as high of a percentage to hit UU on turn 2 as you can.


Also, those sideboard Misdirections could probably be Diverts. Without Painter having the blue cards in hand can be difficult enough as you don't ever want to pitch Transmutes or Intuitions if you can help it, and they're going to walk into Divert an overwhelming majority of the time.

Temanaras
05-10-2011, 11:43 AM
So I was thinking about this last night. I am currently building this deck, but missing a few pieces, but they are on their way. So people have been talking splashing white, but has anyone thought of black? I'm not saying we should, but I was thinking about it. Black would still be able to run foundry for the people that want to. You can think about running a few cards that might smooth the deck out. I'm really just brainstorming but here are a few ideas I came up with:

Yixlid Jailer
Dark Confidant
Dark Ritual

Jailer stops Emrakul's pesky recursion along with dredge, Bob is good draw, and with a top you shouldn't lose to much life, Rit is acceleration and it can run grindstone for 1.
This might dilute the deck to much, so its only a thought, but I figured it might be worth a gander.

Edit: I just thought about surgical extraction, but I wasn't sure of it was fast enough to hit Emraukl while it was in the GY.

keys
05-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the responses guys.

I was considering Misstep in the blast spots and they will probably end up there. The main reason for having blasts maindeck is to beat Needle or Revoker game 1. With the Wurmcoil backup plan, they're not as essential. I would argue that the blue count is fine, since 99% of the time you'll use Force and Misdirection to protect Painter while it's in play, but the added blue from Misstep is still helpful. Especially against discard.

I'm not really convinced the single LED adds much, though. It may be the only combination of cards that can win with Welder when you only have 2 lands... but how did you cast Intuition in the first place? In the time you need to activate Welder twice, I would think you could find a third mana source. Transmuting for LED seems like a marginal play.

Regarding Counterbalance, I never intended it to shore up the Zoo/Burn matchups completely. Those are difficult no matter what you do. But it's just as good as Leyline, Chill, or any other anti-burn card IMO. The main reason to include it is because it completely swings the combo matchup in your favor. For a mere three sideboard spots, I think that's worth it. I certainly wouldn't sideboard it in against Merfolk or Goblins. Both of those matchups are already stellar.

I thought about Divert instead of Misdirection but I admit I haven't tested it thoroughly. It's not really a matter of the opponent running into it. The reason I don't play it is because the only time it's significantly better than Misdirection is against discard on turn 1, when you don't have Painter yet, and don't have an extra blue card. If it's turn 0, or you're tapped out, it's not going to help any more than Misdirection would. Once Painter is in play, Misdirection is a lot better. Leaving U open for Divert in the early turns slows you down considerably as well.

lorddotm
05-10-2011, 03:09 PM
keys, we kind of spoke about it at the "tournament" in Costa Mesa, but could Kira have a home here?

She almost completely shores up the Zoo and Burn match ups, can easily be powered out on turn 2 with Opal, and can put on a small clock on an empty board. Your combo match up seems pretty good without Counterbalance, but maybe adding in 2 Mindbreak Traps over the Misdirections would be good (Misdirection might no longer be needed due to Kira, which is also a little bit helpful against Junk, but I wouldn't bring her in). Plus, Counterbalance doesn't seem great in this deck against combo, since you first have to draw it and with only three that isn't entirely likely, also you have to have UU which can be a bit of a challenge. I think you are a lot better just trying to race them, keep in mind that a Wurmcoil can make it hard for ANT (still pretty easy for TES, but not a lot of that is showing up).

keys
05-10-2011, 03:19 PM
keys, we kind of spoke about it at the "tournament" in Costa Mesa, but could Kira have a home here?

She almost completely shores up the Zoo and Burn match ups, can easily be powered out on turn 2 with Opal, and can put on a small clock on an empty board. Your combo match up seems pretty good without Counterbalance, but maybe adding in 2 Mindbreak Traps over the Misdirections would be good (Misdirection might no longer be needed due to Kira, which is also a little bit helpful against Junk, but I wouldn't bring her in).

I don't see how this "completely shores up the Zoo and Burn match ups" any more than Counterbalance does. If you use up tempo on Kira, they can just race you, and a 2/3 flyer is not much of a clock.

The combo matchup without Counterbalance is even at best. Post board, with blasts and Misdirections, it's maybe slightly favorable, but far from being a bye. CB is better than Mindbreak Trap against combo (I know you wouldn't argue otherwise), and leagues better against burn...

Kira may be better than CB against Junk, but the biggest threat is still Pernicious Deed, rather than targeted removal. I bring in Needles, Misdirections, and Ensnaring Bridge for that matchup, and it seems sufficient.

Di
05-10-2011, 03:29 PM
If you're considering Kira, I'd just run Spellskite instead. It's already an artifact so it has great synergy with Welder and Transmute Artifact, and it can also be cast much easier than Kira. Plus it can also randomly protect your other artifacts from spot removal. Just seems like a natural fit if you have the space.

lorddotm
05-10-2011, 03:39 PM
I don't see how this "completely shores up the Zoo and Burn match ups" any more than Counterbalance does. If you use up tempo on Kira, they can just race you, and a 2/3 flyer is not much of a clock.


Lets be honest here, Zoo is probably no going to kill you on turn 4, so you get to untap with Kira in play, and there is no way they are killing Painter+you before you can stick a Welder, or another Painter. It shores up the match up because it changes the dynamics of it. Why are Burn and Zoo a problem for Painter? They have infinite removal, so they can stop your combo. I would actually say that Counterbalance and Kira take the same amount of time to set up, except Kira is one card to trump their removal and Counterbalance is two. I'm not saying that a 2/2 flier is the world's most ideal clock, but it could happen, I've seen you close out tons of games by attacking with 2/x's.


The combo matchup without Counterbalance is even at best. Post board, with blasts and Misdirections, it's maybe slightly favorable, but far from being a bye. CB is better than Mindbreak Trap against combo (I know you wouldn't argue otherwise), and leagues better against burn..


All you need to do in the Combo match up is to buy 1-2 turns. Mindbreak Trap, or a similar free disruption spell, does that fairly well. And if you think the Combo match up turns into a bye after you add 3 Counterbalance, you are in for a nasty shock. Obviously you are not bringing in Traps against Burn, you are bringing in Kira, which I already said I think is better against them anyways.

Pretty much, what I am trying to say is that Kira is better against Burn and Zoo than Counterbalance is against Combo. We are playing with 5 slots, and we are trying to improve those three match ups, and I think that the 3 Kira and 2 Trap/Pierce/other anti-combo card is better than 3 Counterbalance and 2 Misdirection in the same match ups. That being said, I wouldn't fault you for keeping the Misdirections, but Pierces do seem valuable too.


Kira may be better than CB against Junk, but the biggest threat is still Pernicious Deed, rather than targeted removal. I bring in Needles, Misdirections, and Ensnaring Bridge for that matchup, and it seems sufficient.

Obviously you aren't bringing in Kira unless something really weird is going on, I was just saying it provides more utility than Counterbalance does against them.


EDIT:


If you're considering Kira, I'd just run Spellskite instead. It's already an artifact so it has great synergy with Welder and Transmute Artifact, and it can also be cast much easier than Kira. Plus it can also randomly protect your other artifacts from spot removal. Just seems like a natural fit if you have the space.

Touchť. keys and I are discussing it on gmail, and we have agreed that Spellskite is probably the way to go.

keys
05-10-2011, 04:05 PM
I will test 3 Spellskite, 2 Mental Misstep in those 5 spots.

Sloshthedark
05-11-2011, 04:54 AM
I really like the Transmute deck, I definitely promises more fun and interactions, however I think its not superior to the original - at least on paper, but may be right direction with misstep around... provides nice space in SB without the Emrakul, I'm loving the Bridge, Duplicant and the Counterbalance is a natural friend of Painter in my opinion, unfortunately I'm unable to give it a try, I don't have Grim Monolith, I don't like it as a card and will not buy it just for this purpose

I think dropping LEDs is a bad way to go since LED itself IS a protection, I top 8ed a 50+ men tourney (4-0-2 losing to zen-bant in QF) last week with the original list +1 blast +2 diverts -2 lands -1 Trinket, and I was missing the 4th LED nearly all the time and was desperately topping for it, i don't understand some of you guys say you do not want to see 2nd LED in a game... I'll never play less than 4

few other notes from the tourney - Trinket mage was only good as shuffle effect, Diverts were excellent on the other hand I would like more blasts in some games, I will continue playing a Mountain - wastelocked 4 games (+Energy flux twice), playing Emrakul is suboptimal - half of the decks I faced played Karakas main, mostly with Jace, Sower, KotR, Humility, oblivion ring in the mix; I'm missing Lightning bolts from older U/R versions

I keep losing to dumb Zen-Bant decks and do not understand why, 4 swords 2 pridemage is not something to stop me, while I keep winning against black splash Maverick which I'm afraid of more... Bant, damn its just stupid Zoo with blue =S



On black-splash - ok but the you won't play Art. lands and Welder just for Confidant which is the only right choice among cards mentioned and with Ancient tomb, fetches, force and now maybe misstep you are more than one foot in graveyard already while rolling the dice, you should beat dredge even without SB, Jailer for Emrakul is a bit overkill; surgical extraction is bad, untutorable, counterable, lifedemanding

Kira - demanding casting cost for questionable effect, Counterbalance is much better

tsabo_tavoc
05-11-2011, 07:09 AM
I think dropping LEDs is a bad way to go since LED itself IS a protection, I top 8ed a 50+ men tourney (4-0-2 losing to zen-bant in QF) last week with the original list +1 blast +2 diverts -2 lands -1 Trinket, and I was missing the 4th LED nearly all the time and was desperately topping for it, i don't understand some of you guys say you do not want to see 2nd LED in a game... I'll never play less than 4
few other notes from the tourney - Trinket mage was only good as shuffle effect, Diverts were excellent on the other hand I would like more blasts in some games, I will continue playing a Mountain - wastelocked 4 games (+Energy flux twice), playing Emrakul is suboptimal - half of the decks I faced played Karakas main, mostly with Jace, Sower, KotR, Humility, oblivion ring in the mix; I'm missing Lightning bolts from older U/R versions

Could you please elaborate why you like a 2nd LED in a game? Granted, LED is a way to protect the combo, but a quick analysis can show why it is in general worse than a protection, say, Mental Misstep. (REB costs mana and complicates the comparison)

1. Opponent has mana open and no removal: LED is as good as Protection.
2. Opponent has mana open and 1 removal: LED is worse than Protection.
3. Opponent has mana open and 2+ removal: LED is as bad as Protection, but worse if you have other Protections in hand.
4. Opponent does not have mana open and no removal: LED is as good as Protection.
5. Opponent does not have mana open and 1 removal: LED is as good as Protection.
6. Opponent does not have mana open and 2+ removal: LED is better than Protection, but as good if you have other Protections in hand.

Sloshthedark
05-11-2011, 08:52 AM
sure,
hard to say how situation will look like with misstep, but personal experience is so

it's not that easy all your 6 examples are board-state and match-up dependent, my view is - hey this is combo, you want to win not to be sure you cannot lose, and its about setting up and going off the right turn(s), protection is better most of the other time of course, its conditional, LED lets you win, Misstep does nothing but counter 1cc removal = swords & bolts

Misstep does nothing with Pridemage, Deeds, Explosives, with LED you are possibly 1 step ahead in the Painter survival battle, you benefit from multiple combo pieces, LED has synergy with intuition and welder, improves metalcraft, gets you out of reach of Daze and spellpierce, lets you win in unexpected time and manners - which can annul opponents removal itself, the deck preys on opponents "mis-steps"; seriously - the combo itself is bad, it's skill and surprise that matters

why multiple? I do not require 2 in a game, but definitely want to see 1 and do not dislike the 2nd; in the mentioned tournament I was in several "draw LED=win" situations (aka blast pridemage, LED-grind, divert from top if swords present / discard hand, grind, weld a painter in); its a reaction to previous tendencies dropping LEDs to a 2of, singleton or entirely for other cards or protection, I think this is wrong, but its always up to you what to play, I will stay with my 4 LEDs

(nameless one)
05-11-2011, 09:18 AM
Hey ivanpei,

Hows the Painter/MUD Stompy hybrid going? I'm still split between building two decks, though most of the pieces are similar.

keys
05-11-2011, 02:32 PM
I really like the Transmute deck, I definitely promises more fun and interactions, however I think its not superior to the original - at least on paper, but may be right direction with misstep around... provides nice space in SB without the Emrakul, I'm loving the Bridge, Duplicant and the Counterbalance is a natural friend of Painter in my opinion, unfortunately I'm unable to give it a try, I don't have Grim Monolith, I don't like it as a card and will not buy it just for this purpose

Monolith fills more roles than LED: acceleration, metalcraft enabler, reusable mana with Welder, and Transmute food. They're better in multiples, and usable with protection in hand. Yes, this is a combo deck and speed is important, but that doesn't mean it should go all-in on one (let's face it) easily disrupted win condition without protection. TES is arguably the best storm deck because it has loads of protect AND a 2nd win con in Empty the Warrens. Monolith enables Wurmcoil as an alternative win con, while also making it easier to use protection like FoW, MM, and Blasts.


I think dropping LEDs is a bad way to go since LED itself IS a protection, I top 8ed a 50+ men tourney (4-0-2 losing to zen-bant in QF) last week with the original list +1 blast +2 diverts -2 lands -1 Trinket, and I was missing the 4th LED nearly all the time and was desperately topping for it, i don't understand some of you guys say you do not want to see 2nd LED in a game... I'll never play less than 4

I'm not following your LED = protection logic at all. Speed is important to a combo deck, but so is resiliency. Drawing 2 LEDs is terrible.


few other notes from the tourney - Trinket mage was only good as shuffle effect, Diverts were excellent on the other hand I would like more blasts in some games, I will continue playing a Mountain - wastelocked 4 games (+Energy flux twice), playing Emrakul is suboptimal - half of the decks I faced played Karakas main, mostly with Jace, Sower, KotR, Humility, oblivion ring in the mix; I'm missing Lightning bolts from older U/R versions

Once you realize how awkward Emrakul is, you're on your way to playing Transmute Painter.


I keep losing to dumb Zen-Bant decks and do not understand why, 4 swords 2 pridemage is not something to stop me, while I keep winning against black splash Maverick which I'm afraid of more... Bant, damn its just stupid Zoo with blue =S



On black-splash - ok but the you won't play Art. lands and Welder just for Confidant which is the only right choice among cards mentioned and with Ancient tomb, fetches, force and now maybe misstep you are more than one foot in graveyard already while rolling the dice, you should beat dredge even without SB, Jailer for Emrakul is a bit overkill; surgical extraction is bad, untutorable, counterable, lifedemanding

Kira - demanding casting cost for questionable effect, Counterbalance is much better

Agreed. Black splash won't work because the deck uses artifact lands. The maindeck is already tight enough. I think the new question is Counterbalance or Spellkite (not Kira).



Hey ivanpei,

Hows the Painter/MUD Stompy hybrid going? I'm still split between building two decks, though most of the pieces are similar.

Check out my updated list on the previous page.

ivanpei
05-12-2011, 12:52 AM
Hey ivanpei,

Hows the Painter/MUD Stompy hybrid going? I'm still split between building two decks, though most of the pieces are similar.

Arg I typed a long post but it got lost!

The MUD-Painter hybrid is inconsistent unfortunately :( . Usually it's easier to just win with Painter. With Mental Misstep, the slots are now really tight.

Basically in summary I think if you want LEDs, its best to play Spellskites. I play without LEDs and my new list is this:

3 LEDs, 1 Trinket, 1 Misdirection -> 4 Misstep, 1 Ponder. Welder helps against Pridemage and Misstep keeps your welder alive. Spellskite is also hopelessly useless against counterspells, discard and combo. Misstep is just more versatile. I still keep REBs because I like having MD outs to Revoker/ Needle. Also Spellskite doesn't help you force through your painter through counterspells. IMO spellskite is a great SB card against Zoo because it can soak up 2 burn spells! I play 1 ponder because I feel that this deck really lacks shuffle effects. For a deck with 4 tops, you really need more shuffle effects. 4 Tarn + 4 Intuition doesn't cut it. I play 5 Fetch + 4 Intuition + 1 Ponder and it's much better.

Edit, cut the random 1 Ponder for REB after testing tonight. 3 REBs to intuition for is very important. Revoker decks have been frustrating me all night. Being able to tutor for REB = Priceless. Also, Misstep is sick, catching a Turn 1 drop with it puts the opponent's clock 2 turns back for the cost of 1 CARD and 2 life! I always run out the T1 Misstep. I have 4 Force, 4 Misstep, 3 REB, 4 Welder protecting the combo so running it out T1 to slow the opponent is usually the right play. Did not miss LEDs at all, misstep really slows the opponent, I had no issues racing goblins and the like. Didn't really need shuffle effects apparently. Grindstone + top is such a madhouse combo. I pulled out alot of wins with that combo against control when my painters kept on going farming. Digging 3 cards a turn is sick.

keys
05-15-2011, 03:12 PM
I attended a 43 man tournament yesterday but unfortunately finished 3-3. Just a few highlights from my games:

I won in three games Round 1 against Belcher. The first game he played Belcher but didn't have the mana to activate it, which gave me a few turns to set up and kill him. The next two games he went for Empty the Warrens, but I just outraced him the second time. I imagine Misstep is really good here, but the one time I drew it he ramped with Lotus Petals and Desperate Rituals instead. Never drew FoW, so I was pretty lucky not to die to Belcher.

Round 2 I was matched up against CounterTop Thopter with Confidant. Game one was a quick Grindstone kill backed up by Welder, while game two he overwhelmed me with card advantage from Confidant, and sealed it with Aura of Silence. Game three he started with a Pithing Needle naming Grindstone. A few turns later I Transmuted a Monolith for Myr Battlesphere and killed him in combat next turn (he had taken some damage from a Welder and Painter).

I played against NO Elves round 3 and this loss was really due to poor draws, since it's normally a pretty easy matchup. I had to mull to five game one, and couldn't put anything together before I died to his turn 3 (?) Progenitus. The next game I couldn't get any red mana to cast Welder and his Grip on my Grindstone stopped me dead in my tracks. Then his elves + lords ran me over.

Round 4 had an epic start. I kept a unique hand with Monolith, Wurmcoil, Transmute, Misstep and lands. I then proceed to draw Battlesphere and I start to think this is not my day... However, I hardcast turn 3 Wurmcoil, and on his turn, my opponent plays Show and Tell. I drop the Battlesphere and then outrace his Emrakul for the win.

Game two I bring in blasts, Duplicant, and Ensnaring Bridge. My hand has Duplicant, so on turn 3 I allow his Show and Tell to resolve. I did not see the Hive Mind coming... and Dup does not stop me from dying in my upkeep to Pact. I should've known since I saw him play Monolith the previous game. Game three I'm given another fast Wurmcoil hand but no countermagic, and it can't race Emrakul by itself, especially when he has Pact of the Titan as blocker and mana to pay for it. Perhaps I should have mulliganed more aggressively into combo pieces and/or more countermagic.

Round 5 I beat mono black Reanimator/Dark Depths combo. I lost game one to Turn 2 Iona, but he couldn't do anything about [Transmute for] Ensnaring Bridge the next two. Misstep was great here.

Round 6 against RUW Burn, Spellskites were too little too late. Couldn't set up before getting flamed out or beaten by Guides/Lynxes in two games.

We played some more games for fun and it seemed like my only wins came from a fast Wurmcoil. It's still possible to pull off a Grindstone kill, but you need fast mana to drop Painter and activate Stone while your opponent is tapped out. Monolith + Skite help, but it's really hard to assemble everything in time.

Final Thoughts: I will probably find space for the 4th Transmute. I needed more action in a lot of games, but I'm not sure what to take out for it. Neither Misstep nor Spellskite really got a chance to shine, mostly because I didn't draw them enough, but also because they're kind of narrow. I'm going to keep my options open.

Lastly, the deck is a blast to play. The Transmute/Wurmcoil plan was a breakthrough, but it's still not optimized. I'm looking forward to better performances.

Sintheros
05-15-2011, 08:12 PM
Back to the general U/R list, here's a potential alternative to the ickiness that is SnT/Emrakul in the SB.

Currently in the top 4 of the SCG Open in Orlando...

4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
2 Trinket Mage

4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
3 Mental Misstep

1 Island
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Auriok Salvagers
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tundra

I'd much rather play the Bomberman combo than Show and Tell personally, and I do like the Magus.

ivanpei
05-15-2011, 10:32 PM
I dunno, Auriok Salvagers seems cute to me. Wouldn't Llawan just be better? You still lose to needle and it's a 3 card combo. I think it's way too cute to be effective. The deck doesn't have a ton of white sources and if you draw that MD tundra, its pretty crappy. And I think Trinket main and Nihil main is not very useful. Should be Missteps/REB/Transmute. Trinket seems like a weak choice. Nihil + Welder is just a cute combo, I don't think MD outs to Emrakul is needed though since we'll get curbed stomped before we can assemble the combo + a Nihil spellbomb.

I've also totally cut LEDs. Never needed em. Just my 2 cents.

TheProfessor
05-15-2011, 10:40 PM
Cute deck. Updated my primer :D

Personally I've used bomberman before, however not in a U/R shell build. Interesting variation did not occur to me that Aurioks can fit easily into the deck due to the opals..... very very interesting.

Ivanpei: Actually the presence of trinkets probably serves a dual purpose... In testing it was found that in games where the combo fails you will need to resort to beating your opponent down to death :p... Trinket is great as it help us grab singleton pieces such as nihil ... if you check the SB he's got alot of single ton artifacts that build his combo... trinket probably just acts as a meat shield :D

ivanpei
05-15-2011, 10:55 PM
True, but 2/2s don't win the game unless you lock it down. Plus assembling a 3 card combo is difficult enough. I think Trinket is an okay filler, its just that there are too many cards competing for those slots and IMO REB/Misstep/Transmute are better then trinket. My sb plan against decks I know are playing Revoker /Emrakul/ lots of needles or chalice is Painter+Llawan. It's immune to needle effects/chalice (unlike salvager), and is a 2 card combo that just auto wins against aggro decks.

My board:

3 Needle
3 Llawan
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell pierce/Ensnaring Bridge

Against aggro with needles/ revokers, I swap out Stones for Llawan. She wrecks aggro, period. With 6 blasts I just kill anything else they sneak/cheat through. Against combo/control, I play the deck like control post board. I trim down stones to 3 and cut some mana/welders for blasts/pierces. The deck is a pretty compact combo so just minimal combo pieces paired with a crap load of counters/pseudo vindicates usually does the trick.

IMO, 3 card combos are a no-no. They've never worked in legacy and I don't see why anyone should play a 3 card combo, it's just way to difficult to assemble, even with intuition welder.

EddieO
05-16-2011, 03:16 AM
I played this today, got 10th, but not being aggressive in round 3 cost me the top 8 probably....I should of went for the transmute. Misstep was solid, though I didn't play zoo or much discard. Against Merfolk and renanimator, it was pretty damn good. Transmute was golden, I am not sure why anyone would want to run trinket mage over it.....main deck spellbomb won me two matches. The real MVP, that I am gonna try to work into the main deck is Spellskite. The thing is insane......sower my welder, no....you can have spellskite.....wanna burn my welder, sorry.....you need 3 burn spells. Echoing Truth my Ensnaring Bridge, sorry you can bounce my spellskite. The thing is just nuts.......and it block a lot of the format and lives. I am not sold on the Diverts......and may cut a crypt from the board, though there is a lot graveyard stuff in my area.


Artifacts - 11
4 Grindstone
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Artifact Creatures - 4
4 Painter's Servant

Creatures - 4
4 Goblin Welder

Instants - 17
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mental Mistep

Soceries - 1
2 Transmute Artifact

Legendary Artifacts - 3
3 Mox Opal

Artifact Lands - 7
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod

Basic Lands - 1
1 Island

Lands - 13
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard: 15
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spellskite
2 Divert

ivanpei
05-16-2011, 04:14 AM
Grats! Forgot about spellskite, it seems the nuts against our worst matchup, zoo. Will play some in the board. Did you feel you needed the LEDs at all? I play zero and I never missed em. Cheers.

Sintheros
05-16-2011, 04:45 AM
ivan, I feel its wrong to not even play 1. Playing 1 lets you intuition for it and combo pieces and just win. I can't think of why I wouldn't want one.

Also, on the Bomberman combo in the board - it may be shaky, but it has to be better than SnT/Emrakul, no? SnT/Emrakul are completely anti-synergistic with the rest of the deck sans the colors.

TheProfessor
05-16-2011, 04:59 AM
@Ivan: Well LED is something I would like to have. I know its more of a conditional "win now" type card. But you cant really deny its ability to turn 1 or 2 your opponent. However I do understand the hesistation due to the number of interactions that opponents can do to painter.

Personally I like the bomberman move... but I do agree that its is VERY hard to get all 3 pieces out especially in a legacy environment.

I actually experienced games where I was forced to beat my way to victory lol :p But yes using a blast and misstep would be better in many occasions.

@EddieO: How many people played in that tourney? What place you got bro?

I think the ultimate challenge for a transmute type deck is Junk. So more testing on junk :D

What I REALLY want to test that deck against is the new Supreme Blue, Team America, and Junk as those decks usually give me the most fits.

Maybe on MWS or MTGO? Anybody wanna test this?

PanderAlexander
05-16-2011, 05:21 AM
What I REALLY want to test that deck against is the new Supreme Blue, Team America, and Junk as those decks usually give me the most fits.

Maybe on MWS or MTGO? Anybody wanna test this?

I'm panderalexander on AIM and Yahoo, I would like to see how the deck fairs against those tier decks and am down to playtest.

ivanpei
05-16-2011, 08:28 AM
Agree that I'd love to have 1 MD but it is very antisynergistic with Misstep, REB and Force. If you want to protect your painter from removal, LED doesnt work with counters. I think LEDs would be great in a Spellskite MD version though. But if you do that, your combo MU is going to be suspect because you are dropping too many counters. I'll retest LED with Spellskite and have a look at the results.

EddieO
05-16-2011, 12:22 PM
There was only 29.....not the best turnout, especially since the prizes were pretty good. My non-aggressive play cost me, which was I topped with 4 mana, led, and grindstone in play. I see a transmute artifact.....I should flip the top, but I worry if he bounces my painter in response, now I lost my top.....so I decide to wait..... He ends up top decking echoing truth for my bridge and kills me with emkrul......shows me his hand, thoughtseize and a land.....lame.

Spellskite is really all that and a bucket of chicken.......the only thing it can't stop is Krosan Grip really.....

I am probably gonna drop to 1 LED......I felt 3 was too much, but 2 seemed fine. I think if I drop 1, 1 blast, and 1 other card, I can maindeck 3 Spellskite.....which of course frees up 3 slots in the board. I certainly would not play without an LED though. It's synergy with so many parts of the deck is key.

I am not a fan of the Bomberman sideboard route......it certainly doesn't shore up our worst matchs up like zoo or junk. I also question the Magus of the Moon option.....why not blood moon? Sure makes it more useful against decks like Zoo.....Magus is just too easy to get rid of really.

I'd love to play the deck online, but don't have the money to spend anymore for online cards. Maybe 1 day if I sell my extra recruiters. I do have Imperial Painter built online and have won my fair share of daily events with it......some days I wish my online stuff even remotely rivaled my real life collection.


Later EddieO

Patrunkenphat7
05-16-2011, 07:12 PM
This deck is looking very solid right now in the metagame. I like the Show and Tell package against decks that give us the most trouble (like chalice stompy decks and revokers and null rods out of the board), but decks like Junk and Team America that present a stronger force in the metagame and are not great matchups are not affected by the Show and Tell package in the same way. I am starting to think that a playset of Magus of the Moon might be beneficial to put in the SB due to the popularity of Team America right now. Resolving one against them is gg if you do it early enough and if they don't run certain less-used removal. We should really punish them for running no basics since we have the tools to do so.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
05-17-2011, 03:28 PM
Piloted this deck to a 4th place finish last night (small tournament, 22 people).

I ran 1 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Mental Misstep in the main.

Round 1 vs Sneaky Show
G1. He has a turn 1 Emrakul.
G2. I get Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack and aggro him out.
G3. I mill him out with Tormod's Crypt on the stack.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 vs Tezz Affnity
G1. I resolve Goblin Welder and melt all his robots. I combo shortly after.
G2. I get a turn 2 Show and Tell into Emrakul.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 vs Combo Elves
G1. He drops too many dudes for me to handle.
G2. Repeat.

2-1 (4-3)

Round 4 vs GW Maverick
G1. I nut draw him.
G2. How does GW beat combo anyway?

3-1 (6-3)

All in all I'm pleased with the deck. I feel like I didn't stand a chance against Elves just because they come out of the gates so quickly.

Sloshthedark
05-18-2011, 04:05 PM
LEDs - I still like them =)

Transmute art. in standard build? in my testing it was usually an entomb resulting into unbearable board disadvantage

dropped 1 force 2 diverts, I'm on 3x Fow, 3x Misstep, 3x pyro now, feels fine but its a game-costing life hazard sometimes with the Tombs

Bomberman seems weak without the recruiters and even with them its weird and screws manabase... btw. not boarding Maguses against Gerry T? loss well deserved

Spellskite - sounds perfect, anybody tested it?

S&T - I don't like it, but see no better option, I'm thinking about Magus & spellskites, "ignoring" the Zoo and burn

Elves? - play LEDs, be faster ; )

=======

Maubert Noham decktech at BOM V. that guy is incredible, plays the same no matter what, just tunes the list though time, unfortunately finished around 100. this time.. but for your inspiration a control take on UR painter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lgnfk0ZoT4

keys
05-18-2011, 05:42 PM
If Transmute Artifact is resulting in board disadvantage for you, you might be playing it wrong. The sacrifice is on resolution, not part of the casting cost. So if it gets countered, it's only a 1-for-1.

Entombing robots is just one of Transmute's many uses. It works best when paired with Grim Monolith, which, granted, is not as fast as LED, but it doesn't force you to discard your protection when comboing off.

Untapped Monolith + Transmute Artifact + 1UU = put a Wurmcoil Engine into play

Untapped Monolith + (Painter or Grindstone in play) + Transmute Artifact + UU = you win in your opponent's next draw step

Sloshthedark
05-19-2011, 03:35 PM
keys - I understand it well, its monoliths natural companion and awesome of course, I mean standard Caleb list entombing combo pieces

Di
05-19-2011, 05:35 PM
keys - I understand it well, its monoliths natural companion and awesome of course, I mean standard Caleb list entombing combo pieces

Naturally if you're going to be running Transmute Artifact it's assumed you aren't running a build like that; it simply can't support it. You have to have some sort of sacrificial artifacts so you don't end up generating card disadvantage like that, hence for Grim Monoliths. It'd be terrible if you had absolutely no decent means of tinkering for 0-1 with it.

Sloshthedark
05-21-2011, 02:17 AM
Naturally if you're going to be running Transmute Artifact it's assumed you aren't running a build like that; it simply can't support it. You have to have some sort of sacrificial artifacts so you don't end up generating card disadvantage like that, hence for Grim Monoliths. It'd be terrible if you had absolutely no decent means of tinkering for 0-1 with it.

And I understand that, it was just short comment on EddieO list previous page

Sloshthedark
05-24-2011, 05:05 AM
I've top 8ed GP side-event last Sunday, 5-0+double ID and lost my 350 euro FBB Volcanics dream by luck and stupidity with Zenith-Zoo I've beaten in swiss, maybe its time to share the list:

// Lands
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [A] Island (2)
1 [B] Mountain (3)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 4 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will

DJ Catchem
05-26-2011, 01:14 PM
Three questions as I'm trying to wrap my head around this deck:

-Is there a call (and space) for Misdirection, given the resurgence in targeted discard?

-What matchups does a transformational sideboard help against? I seem to want room for Merfolk hate in Llawan and extra blasts, BUG hate in Magus, and still want room for grave hate. Can't fit it all...

-The Trinks slots MD...is it worth retaining tutors there, or is that the space for extra removal/counters?

Thanks,

--->DJ

Sintheros
05-26-2011, 02:35 PM
The transformational sideboard is against one of the two things Painter loses to:
-Redundant amounts of removal
-Your opponent playing Emrakul/Progenitus
Redundant amounts of removal are pretty poor against Emrakul. You bring it in againt Zoo and other removal-heavy decks.

Sloshthedark
05-27-2011, 04:59 AM
Three questions as I'm trying to wrap my head around this deck:

-Is there a call (and space) for Misdirection, given the resurgence in targeted discard?

-What matchups does a transformational sideboard help against? I seem to want room for Merfolk hate in Llawan and extra blasts, BUG hate in Magus, and still want room for grave hate. Can't fit it all...

-The Trinks slots MD...is it worth retaining tutors there, or is that the space for extra removal/counters?

Thanks,

--->DJ


1, not much, personally I see Misdirection as a too much of disadvantage, same with Force, which is a necessary evil half time

2, I board in against all kinds of Thresh, Team America, B/W aggro, non-zenith Zoo, Counter balance, Dragon Stompy, Stax, sometimes even against B/W control if i know they play extirpate, and only Emrakuls against S&T and mirror, usually it goes -3 Painter, -3 Grindstone, -3 LED, -1 Mox Opal or -4 Welder, -2 LED, -1 Grindstone and various -1

you don't need Llawan against merfolk your average draw is superior and only card that hurts you is Energy Flux, Llawan is a nice tech though but dies to same as painter, maybe with spellskites... I'm thinking about abandoning GY hate to 1 crypt or entirely, I don't need it against Dredge and it does not help with sneak attack, and placing a Phyrexian Metamorph and more needles

3, Trinkets are best as a shuffle effect unless you have toolkit for them

The problem with Zoo, Maverick, Bant is, they all play 4xKotr and just having one in hand grants them victory (S&T Kotr, rotate in Karakas their turn), so you have to S&T as fast as possible (T4 too late) and hope they don't have it, actually the rational chances of success are lesser than with painter plan

Patrunkenphat7
05-31-2011, 07:51 AM
Hey guys,
I top 8ed GP Providence with this deck, and here is what I was matched up against:

1 Bye
2 Bye
3 Bye
4 W 2-0 U/R Dreadstill
5 W 2-0 NO Bant
6 W 2-1 Merfolk
7 W 2-0 Team Italia
8 W 2-0 Junk
9 W 2-0 Merfolk

10 L 1-2 NO RUG
11 W 2-1 Stoneforge Bant
12 L 1-2 Stoneforge Bant
13 W 2-1 Dredge (non-LED)
14 W 2-1 Merfolk
15 ID

Top 8
L 0-2 BUGstill

The deck was awesome, and I would not have done anything different with the list. Other than the top 8, my losses were very close game 3's. Most of my wins were by pretty large margins except for really close game 3's in rounds 6, 11, and 14. Props to all the cool dudes I played against; all of my opponents were great players and good sports, and I hope to see them again in future tournaments.

A few notable plays and situations:
-The Round 8 Junk player was on the play in Game 2 and played land, Mox, Hymn, and I Misdirected his Hymn, setting him down to one card. The game was pretty much over at that point.\
-In Round 11 Game 3, I was facing a Revoker naming Grindstone and a Goyf with a Sword of Feast and Famine. I had Painter naming blue and Grindstone in play with 4 mana available. I Intuitioned for 3 Llawans and played her on the following turn, 2 turns before I was facing lethal. I then won quickly with Grindstone
-In Round 13 Game 3 I had a Welder + Crypt online, and that combination absolutely destroyed my opponent.
-The top 8 showed that 4 maindeck Deed is such a beating, and the top 8 field as a whole contained some relatively difficult matchups. I might have been able to get Game 2 with Blood Moon if I could hit a third land, but the land never came.

I have to go to class, but I will mentionhow I felt about matchups later today. Check out my list on the Magic site. I would say the only really interesting thing about the list was 3 Llawan and 4 Bloodmoon in the board, and 1 maindeck Transmute Artifact proved to be awesome.

Sintheros
05-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Congrats. About time somebody got the memo that only 1 LED is the right play. Glad it worked!

keys
05-31-2011, 03:56 PM
Patrunkenphat7, congrats!

Did cutting LEDs matter when racing, or was the extra permission more important?

I think you should add Monoliths, Wurmcoil and more Transmutes, but that's just me ;). If you've ever played against a deck with multiple Progenitus (e.g. NO Show, Sneak and Show), having a maindeck secondary win condition is huge. The surprise factor is also pretty nice when opponents go all in on Needle/Revoker naming Grindstone.

I don't really agree with SB Llawan, since Merfolk is already a very winnable matchup, and as a combo with Painter it's just not all that powerful. Ensnaring Bridge is better since it's tutorable with Transmute, and recurrable with Welder.

I didn't get to go to GP Prov, but I did split top 4 at a tournament over the weekend with this list going 5-1-1 (my one loss was against Infect pump...):

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal (I'm currently testing out 1 LED instead of 1 Opal)
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition

2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Meta spot: Magus of the Moon / Spellskite (I played with Blood Moons because I didn't have Maguses, but I think the red men are better since you might need to attack for the win if you can't find your combo pieces)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant

SMR0079
05-31-2011, 05:09 PM
Has anyone tried Tezz as an alternate win con? It's a trump agasint Emrakul, grabs bridge then ramps up to attacking with 5/5s, and tutors for the combo.

keys
05-31-2011, 05:57 PM
Has anyone tried Tezz as an alternate win con? It's a trump agasint Emrakul, grabs bridge then ramps up to attacking with 5/5s, and tutors for the combo.

He's good, but the mana cost is a problem. Searching for a combo piece on turn 4-5 is a bit slow. His ultimate isn't a guaranteed win for the deck, either.

Patrunkenphat7
05-31-2011, 10:16 PM
LED was only good for me in Intuition piles. Don't get me wrong though; it was very good. I just felt like LED provided faster wins with midgame Intuitions, and I didn't really need it to increase turn 2 wins. To answer the question, I would much have more turn 3 wins with increased protection than more turn 2 attempts. Misstep was an all-star all day, often better than FoW.

I found that Llawan is actually extremely good in the Bant matchup, which is what pushed him into my SB. They simply do not have enough resources to deal with it when they are also trying to battle Welder. I would not have top 8ed if I had not resolved Llawan against Bant. I knew Bant was going to perform well, and the fact that Llawan is quite good against Merfolk is very important. Although we are already good against them, I can't afford to win 2 out of 3 rounds against the most popular deck at a GP when I'm trying to top 8. Llawan helped push me over the edge in that matchup.

Also, I have never encountered a competitive deck that runs more than 1 Progenitus... I would also never expect to see something like that with 3 byes at a GP.

Transmute Artifact + Grim Monolith is cool, but that is a different deck than what I was going for. I would never play any less than 4 Intuition in a Welder Painter deck. I wanted my deck to have a consistent and streamlined combo with great protection. I don't think I could have ended 1st in the standings of Day 1 any other way. I think the idea of Transmute Artifact and Grim Monolith is great; it simply didn't suit this event in my opinion.

By the way, every single player who saw Transmute Artifact asked for the oracle text, including PV. I love the card!

Sintheros
05-31-2011, 11:15 PM
Why do you run a 1-of TA over a 1-of Trinket Mage? You wind up down a card rather than up one.

TheProfessor
05-31-2011, 11:44 PM
@ Patrunkenphat7 -- Congratulations man :D Your an inspiration (lol) :D Thank you for sharing your tourney report. Good idea on the Llawan, I have been simulating that or ensnaring bridge for a while now. Both have good and bad experiences. Love your deck man and congrats again on the win :D So how did you prepare for the GP?

PS. love the deck. Executes like a dream on T4 and T5 consistently with protection ~70-75% of the time)

By the way when you boarded in the misdirections what did you usually board out?



@Sloshthedark -- LED is a must have in the deck :D By the way love your list it executes the combo faster and more consistent than other builds i've played. Have you ever had problems with protection? Usually i found that the deck kinda goes "all in" mode every T2 and T3? (usually no protection? lol)



Card Choices:

Transmute Artifact? -- its awesome :D Cast it if it resolves = artifact is in play already.

Trinket Mage? -- Its a nice toolbox :D Cast it if it resolves = Bear + key artifact in hand

Both have uses and both have significant drawbacks in my opinion? I do not think either is more superior than the other?

However certain situations do change that view :D Do we need to be faster? Do we need more control?

PanderAlexander
06-01-2011, 02:06 AM
Congrats Patrunkenphat7, good to see the deck perform well at the GP, showing that it's a consistent deck that can get top performances. I've liked the Llawan in testing, but tell me about how Blood Moon fared for you? I've been testing Blood Moon a lot, and the only real matchup it helped against was Team America.

Sintheros
06-01-2011, 05:05 AM
So what are people's thoughts on Spellskite?

keys
06-01-2011, 01:46 PM
Also, I have never encountered a competitive deck that runs more than 1 Progenitus... I would also never expect to see something like that with 3 byes at a GP.

NO Show and Sneak & Show are both popular decks. You also have no way to beat decks with Emrakul game 1 (outside of Welder/Painter beats). Considering that a deck with 3 Emrakuls placed 2nd at the GP... you will eventually find yourself in situations where an alternative win con is needed.


Why do you run a 1-of TA over a 1-of Trinket Mage? You wind up down a card rather than up one.

Trinket Mage rarely gets you anything other than Grindstone, Needle, or Crypt. Transmute also gets Painter, or more expensive silver bullets like Ensnaring Bridge. The card disadvantage is rarely an issue since the deck plays so many artifacts, there is often a dead or redundant permanent to sacrifice. Most of the time it just doesn't matter, since you win as soon as it resolves.


So what are people's thoughts on Spellskite?

It's a good card against Burn, Zoo, (and Pump Infect, as I found out last tournament). It soaks up more bolts than Kira, and blocks Nacatls all day long, unlike Counterbalance. It is competing for spots with Misdirection, however, which is arguably better against Junk, Team America, and other Hymn based decks.

Sintheros
06-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Spellskite, Magus/Moon, Llawan, and Misdirect are all competing for slots.

Also, we appear to be a DTB now. Wheee.

TheProfessor
06-01-2011, 10:48 PM
OMG... this primer is really here? T.T... i feel soooo happy...first I'd like to thank all the children of the world, kittens, and other furry creatures that we can devour.

Thank you for all the people who discussed their experiences with this deck in detail and for sharing their ideas. Believe me, your inputs no matter how odd/wierd/far flung they are. They are always welcome and appreciated.

Also on a personal note: I truly hope not many people play our deck :p I love the deck its "rogueness" is what kept it unique :D (its always nice to come up to a tourney being the lower 1% of the field) Can I still request this be returned to Developmental? :D haha As I feel this deck still has a long way to go and can still get WAY better in the comming future :D

I will do updates on the Primer again in another 2 weeks :D

Thank you to the following people (in no particular order):
Non Forum Guys!
Cerberus Team (Philippines) -- Chard thank you for loaning me the parts until i got my own lol
Joscar & Ernest (for testing my deck in tourneys and nice enough to give me tourney reports)


Forum Guys!
Ivanpei -- Great insights on land count and LED/mox opal ratios. (this guy is loaded...)
Sinteros -- Your questions are great man keep them comming.
PanderAlexander -- Your personal insights and experiences + helping me proof read the primer was great help (was wondering if my english skills were degrading).. Although the photos of the eroticon was actually the thing the kept me warm during those nights writing this primer....
Keys -- I think (maybe I'm wrong) that you were the first to suggest transmute artifact? Congrats :D
Sloshthedark -- Thank you for sharing and giving us inputs on your tourney experiences! (am i correct to assume that youre russian?)
Patrunkenphat7 -- Your GP report will and insights will be counted upon in this forum :D
Di? -- Thank you for sharing your Transmute artifact deck experiences!
EddieO -- Thank you for sharing your tourney experiences!
Caleb Durward (for his original deck idea) -- Well without you comming up with the deck design we wouldnt be here. I wonder if he ever reads or posts in these forums?


Did you guys notice that our deck's "parts/components" can be used in two other decks that do well?
Namely: Sneak/Show and Hivemind? lol

Q: What primer should i do next?

Sloshthedark
06-02-2011, 04:37 AM
Congratulations to Patrunkenphat7, and condolences for the DTB - I really hope this deck would never become massively played



@Sloshthedark -- LED is a must have in the deck :D By the way love your list it executes the combo faster and more consistent than other builds i've played. Have you ever had problems with protection? Usually i found that the deck kinda goes "all in" mode every T2 and T3? (usually no protection? lol)


my intent of the design is to push both speed and protection to the deck limits according to my experience; currently I feel the list is nearly tuned to perfection for me - except the 61. card which is due to SB space but historically all my decks have played 61 cards so I can live with that

It's not like that, you just have to know when you can afford going off T2, T3 into untapped lands, usually you just lay down the combo and pass the turn

I also Do SB out some LEDs, but it's important for me to be able to race my opponent if necessary, or finish the game "from hand" in some match-ups

and no - I'm Czech, its quite a difference ; )

lordofthepit
06-02-2011, 04:39 AM
I've liked the Llawan in testing, but tell me about how Blood Moon fared for you? I've been testing Blood Moon a lot, and the only real matchup it helped against was Team America.

I'm interested in this as well.

Congrats on your finish!

Di
06-02-2011, 09:29 AM
Congrats Patrunkenphat7, good to see the deck perform well at the GP, showing that it's a consistent deck that can get top performances. I've liked the Llawan in testing, but tell me about how Blood Moon fared for you? I've been testing Blood Moon a lot, and the only real matchup it helped against was Team America.

Blood Moon is naturally good against Landstill and Lands, but it's also really good against Junk. Odds are they will not fetch around it unless they know it's coming, and unless they have a threat in play by turn 2-3 (which is generally unlikely as they normally start with disruption, unless of course they kept a bad hand) you can pretty much lock them out of the game.

It can also just punish any other deck with a greedy manabase. A handful of Bant lists are like that, as are other blue-based aggro-control decks. It's a great card to steal wins from decks like that.

PanderAlexander
06-02-2011, 08:41 PM
Blood Moon is naturally good against Landstill and Lands, but it's also really good against Junk. Odds are they will not fetch around it unless they know it's coming, and unless they have a threat in play by turn 2-3 (which is generally unlikely as they normally start with disruption, unless of course they kept a bad hand) you can pretty much lock them out of the game.

It can also just punish any other deck with a greedy manabase. A handful of Bant lists are like that, as are other blue-based aggro-control decks. It's a great card to steal wins from decks like that.

I meant mostly what bad matchup it would help us against. Lands is almost a bye for us, we combo them out before they do anything relevant and we still easily fight through EE recursion and waste/loam. Team America is a harder matchup I've seem it help, was wondering what others. I've test a lot in junk and they'll grab basics and mox diamond. But it did help against wasteland for that matchup.

Di
06-02-2011, 09:53 PM
I meant mostly what bad matchup it would help us against. Lands is almost a bye for us, we combo them out before they do anything relevant and we still easily fight through EE recursion and waste/loam. Team America is a harder matchup I've seem it help, was wondering what others. I've test a lot in junk and they'll grab basics and mox diamond. But it did help against wasteland for that matchup.

True; I was merely mentioning matchups it was good against.

However, neither Landstill or Junk are cakewalks. Any deck with access to Pernicious Deed can be an absolute nightmare, and shutting them off of not only that, but a good portion of their deck, is huge. Landstill essentially can't win through it unless they either have Jace in play or miraculously already have two basic Islands in play. I'll take that instead of trying to win through Deed, spot removal, and counters the hard way.

As for Junk, I think it's worth it despite the fact the matchup isn't overly unfavorable. They are going to walk into it a majority of the time, and even if they don't, it will severly limit them in what they're able to do. They have a whopping 3 basics in the deck, and maybe Mox Diamonds if they don't board them out. If they're fetching them early to get around Blood Moon, then their chances of getting early Hymns and such to connect aren't as high. It just puts them in a rough position that they generally will not be able to get out of in time for you to combo.

lorddotm
06-02-2011, 10:09 PM
True; I was merely mentioning matchups it was good against.

However, neither Landstill or Junk are cakewalks. Any deck with access to Pernicious Deed can be an absolute nightmare, and shutting them off of not only that, but a good portion of their deck, is huge. Landstill essentially can't win through it unless they either have Jace in play or miraculously already have two basic Islands in play. I'll take that instead of trying to win through Deed, spot removal, and counters the hard way.

As for Junk, I think it's worth it despite the fact the matchup isn't overly unfavorable. They are going to walk into it a majority of the time, and even if they don't, it will severly limit them in what they're able to do. They have a whopping 3 basics in the deck, and maybe Mox Diamonds if they don't board them out. If they're fetching them early to get around Blood Moon, then their chances of getting early Hymns and such to connect aren't as high. It just puts them in a rough position that they generally will not be able to get out of in time for you to combo.

He brings up extremely valid points, but isn't it kind of hard to resolve against Landstill?

Norm
06-02-2011, 10:25 PM
He brings up extremely valid points, but isn't it kind of hard to resolve against Landstill?

They really only have Daze/Fow for that. Odds are pretty good that if you play around Daze and are aggressive with MM, you'll stick it. Having Force backup is obviously pretty sweet, but I haven't had too much trouble resolving a quick Blood Moon against landstill.

Di
06-02-2011, 10:27 PM
He brings up extremely valid points, but isn't it kind of hard to resolve against Landstill?

Landstill's only outs to deal with it are either Force of Will, maybe Counterspell if they run it, or if they already have a Pernicious Deed on the table, and you have Force and ReB to protect it, so it shouldn't be difficult.

Patrunkenphat7
06-03-2011, 01:57 AM
Hey guys,
Sorry I have been extremely busy today. I can say that Blood Moon was a metagame call at the GP, as I have found any BUG-colored deck to be extremely difficult game 1 (whether it be Team America or BUGstill), and those decks were everywhere. Blood Moon is better than the Painter combo against Team America and it turns an unfavorable matchup into favorable post-board. This is probably the matchup I tested the most before the GP, as I felt like I was bound to run into it quite a bit. Unfortunately I had a Blood Moon stranded in my hand against PV with 2 mana sources and a Top on board during game 2...

I will also note that I really like playing this deck a little slower with stronger protection in the post-MM format. We don't really need to go all in with turn 2 wins off LED; the additional protection is definitely worth it.

Whippoorwill
06-04-2011, 03:07 AM
I've been meaning to try this deck outside of just testing (Never felt comfortable enough with it to play it in a tournament) and decided to try Wilson's list last weekend after seeing it as one of the Day 1 undefeated decks. I played the same main deck but modified the board for what usually shows up where I play:

2x Pyroblast
2x REB
3x Blood Moon
2x Misdirection
2x Divert
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Hibernation (Didn't even think about this with Painter naming Green until after the tournament. /fail)

Round 1 vs. U/R Storm
It was kinda like Belcher but without the Belchers. It mainly used EtW for the kill.

Game 1 was a quick kill with the combo. I had countered Gitaxian Probe with Mental Misstep since I didn't know what he was playing and didn't want him to know I had Force in hand.

Game 2 he makes Goblins as I'm assembling the combo. I get hit by them once and end up at 1 thanks to Ancient Tomb damage. He attempts to Bolt me, but REB with Painter out saves me and I combo him out.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. Elves
Game 1 was over after 3 turns.

Game 2 was over in 4. Didn't bother sideboarding.

2-0; 4-0

Round 3 vs. Junk
Game 1: His version was very removal heavy. He had Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse main in addition to the usual StPs. I couldn't keep key pieces on the board.

Game 2: He had 2 Non-Basics and 2 BoPs for mana and hit me with Therapy blanking then flashing it back taking something key. I cast Hibernation (For 1 BoP....) on my turn to slow down his mana since I was having issues as well. I didn't draw the Blood Moon until after he had already recovered. I really think an early Blood Moon was the only way I was going to win this without a near perfect opening hand.

2-1; 4-2

Round 4 vs. Team America
Game 1: The deck decided to be nice to me again and I combo'd him out turn 4 or 5.

Game 2: He starts off by mulling to 4 and has some hand disruption. I take his hand with mine though thanks to him Forcing my Divert on his Hymn. We both end up play the draw-go game and I start attacking him with Welder since its not doing anything. He gets a Sylvan Library out but can't find any lands, even with drawing 3 cards a turn. Eventually I get 2 Welders out and Intuition at his EoT for Grindstone, Servant, LED. I try to weld out a Land for the Grindstone and he Stifles it (told him afterwards that was a mistake and he should have saved it for the Grindstone). I just use the other Welder to get it in. I take my turn and activate Grindstone then weld it out for Painter to kill him.

3-1; 6-2

Finished in 2nd overall with the Junk deck taking 1st.


The deck is a ton of fun to play, sadly I never got to use Transmute Artifact to see how much I liked it. I have some questions for those more familiar with it:

-Sideboarding: How do you decide what to take out? Force and Misstep are obvious when I can board them out, but after that I usually boarded out 1x Painter's Servant & 1x Grindstone since I didn't know what else to cut.

-Metagaming: Progenitus is fairly common here and I know for sure one person is going to be playing Hypergenesis. Should I get paired up with him, should I just attempt to make the match a draw due to the endless Progenitus loop or would it be worth it to add a single Tundra and Ethersworn Canonists to the board to stop Cascade? The plus side is this would also help against any other Combo decks.

Di
06-04-2011, 05:54 PM
-Sideboarding: How do you decide what to take out? Force and Misstep are obvious when I can board them out, but after that I usually boarded out 1x Painter's Servant & 1x Grindstone since I didn't know what else to cut.

-Metagaming: Progenitus is fairly common here and I know for sure one person is going to be playing Hypergenesis. Should I get paired up with him, should I just attempt to make the match a draw due to the endless Progenitus loop or would it be worth it to add a single Tundra and Ethersworn Canonists to the board to stop Cascade? The plus side is this would also help against any other Combo decks.

Sideboarding:

I wouldn't ever cut Painter or Grindstone, unless the matchup was so abysmal that I was planning on using other routes to victory. However, that list doesn't have any win conditions outside that combo, so it's even more imperative you don't board those out.

Sideboarding can be difficult, but it really depends on the exact build of the deck, play/draw, match, what they can bring in, etc. Generally I end up cutting 2+ Force of Wills against anything not combo, but it's rare to board out Misstep. Other than those it's tough to say due to the variables I mentioned above, but things that are typically boarded out are Trinket Mage (if it's run), Pithing Needle (see above), maybe a land against something without Wastelands, LED/Grim Monolith, or maybe 1 Transmute Artifact or Intuition. Fortunately, that build of the deck shouldn't need to board many cards in at once, so sideboarding shouldn't be too difficult.

Metagaming:

Given decks with Progenitus/Emrakul aren't all that uncommon, most Painter builds run additional win conditions. A lot of decks have adopted an alternate win condition of Wurmcoil Engine, which is generally really good. I run Wurmcoil Engine in my own sideboard and maindeck the Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek combo. ThopterSword is probably responsible for 25% of my game wins as it's such a strong combo and difficult to disrupt against most decks in the format. If you're considering adding white for a single Ethersworn Cannonist in the board (which I do as well), then it's probably not as bad of an idea to try Thopter Foundry either. However, I run a full set of Transmute Artifacts, which make it much easier to find.

Speaking of which, this is the build I've run to consecutive 5-0's at my locals and would've run at GP Providence had I not had an airplane malfunction causing me to miss the GP.

4 Goblin Welder

3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith

4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition/Trinket Mage (torn on this, I liked both, but adding Intuition also meant cutting the 21st land for an LED. The locals I've played in I ran Trinket Mage and it worked fine, but Intuition is still solid)
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep

4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
2 Island

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ethersworn Cannonist


Given what the metagame turned out to be like, I was really liking the list. I added the 2nd Island to help cast Transmute under Blood Moon, and it's been solid against Wasteland decks anyway, so I like it. Otherwise my maindeck hasn't changed much since I first posted it, just added Misstep. I'm still teetering on Trinket Mage/Intuition. I like Intuition a lot because it's great tutoring power and it nuts with Welder, but if I ran it I'd be more inclined to go to 4 Painter+Stone, which I've reserved for the Thopter combo maindeck (and I'd prefer not to board it). I also like how Trinket Mage is a decent chump blocker and is fine for getting mana sources and Top against disruption-heavy decks. More testing will prove what ultimately happens here, I could end up cutting the 4th Transmute Artifact to squeeze in more space here too.

I didn't run as high of a blast count as normal in the board because I only ran 3 Painter due to both running 4 Transmute and running ThopterSword alternatively, and because I feel most of what I want to counter is not blue. That said, I ended up cutting the 4th and 5th blasts for Spellskites, which have proven to be insane. I was skeptical at first, but after running through a local playing against Zoo, Sligh, and Junk right in a row, I realized how nuts it is. I suggest everyone give it a second look, because it turns those matchups right around. I also really like Ancient Grudge right now. I had them in there for Null Rod hate, but given this deck is picking up, they could be great in the mirror. Plus, they're also nuts against Affinity, and solid against the Stoneforge decks in killing swords and Batterskull. Everything else is pretty self-explanitory.

Whippoorwill
06-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the advice.

Force was the first thing I would usually cut as you mentioned. I think the most I boarded in/out was 7 for Misdirection, Divert and Blood Moon. I cut 4 Force, 1 Stone, 1 Servant, 1 ??? since I figured I could just Intuition for them as needed. I see what you mean about not boarding those out though.

I really like the Thopter Sword idea, so I'll have to try that out once I finish my set of Transmute Artifacts. One thing I'm curious about is the Top count. Have you ever wanted the entire set of them or has 2 (+Trinket Mage) been the perfect number to make sure you get them?

Ancient Grudge is really nice tech, definitely going to have to use that one.

Thanks again for the advice.

Solar Ice
06-04-2011, 07:23 PM
Di, your mainboard is 59 cards by my count. Also, what do you do against a resolved Humility? Have you considered Engineered Explosives in the side?

Di
06-04-2011, 07:38 PM
Di, your mainboard is 59 cards by my count. Also, what do you do against a resolved Humility? Have you considered Engineered Explosives in the side?

Oops, the Intuition/Trinket Mage slot should be 2, not 1. I fixed it on the list.

Humility isn't an issue, as it doesn't affect Painter's Servant at all (Has to do with layers, there's a thread on it in the Card Interactions forum if you want to know the specifics), and it doesn't do anything to ThopterSword. It hurts Goblin Welder I guess, but given it doesn't stop any of my win conditions I don't care about it.

I've also had Engineered Explosives in the deck before, but greatly dislike how it generally hits as many of my permanents as it does for the opponents. It isn't worth blowing something up if you nuke your own Goblin Welder or Grindstone or whatever.


I really like the Thopter Sword idea, so I'll have to try that out once I finish my set of Transmute Artifacts. One thing I'm curious about is the Top count. Have you ever wanted the entire set of them or has 2 (+Trinket Mage) been the perfect number to make sure you get them?

I'd like at least one additional Top, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I'm sure I could find the space, but it's difficult because I run additional cards in those slots that aren't typically seen in Painter lists (namely Needle and Ensnaring Bridge maindeck), and I'd have to cut either of those or the 21st land to squeeze them in, but I like the flexibility those artifacts offer in the maindeck, and I greatly like having 21 land to consistently hit land drops and fight Wasteland. I've been happy with the list so far, but it's definitely the next slot I'd add in the deck if I can manage it.

ivanpei
06-04-2011, 09:58 PM
I play a super protected combo now, with decent success. The format has slowed because of misstep and you no longer really need the speed of LED IMO. I play the normal list with - 2 mage, - 3 LEDs, +4 Misstep, + 1 REB. Having 3 REBs is important so you can intuition for them as outs to Needle or revoker etc. I've found that I like playing without LEDs and even though I run so much protection, it frees my missteps to be fired of on Turn 1/ Turn 0. Missteping a T1 play from the opponent really slows them alot, usually by 2 turns or more (from killing me).

I play tested this deck alot over the weekend at GP Singapore with Singaporeans and my good testing buddy Andrew. Slow rolling is optimal right now. I get trashed so much with hymms and removal that LEDs are a huge liability and dangerous to run IMO.

BTW, I met the professor at GP Singapore, he was flipping through my folder and recognized my Avatar Brainstorm-Jace alter in my folder. LOL, he was a really cool guy and we were hunting staples at the booths.

keys
06-05-2011, 04:42 PM
Di, your list is only like 4 cards away from mine, but I still think it's a sin to play anything less than 4 Painter and Grindstone (I leave Needle and Bridge in the SB). I also think Wurmcoil/Battlesphere is much more effective as a secondary win condition, because you only need 1 tutor and you don't need to splash white. I've hardcasted them plenty of times off of Monolith, too. You can't do that turn 3 with Sword of the Meek and start bashing.

Di
06-05-2011, 05:43 PM
I enjoy the ability of being able to grab the bullets game 1. You lose a little bit of consistency, but the benefit of being able to sit under Ensnaring Bridge against aggro or use Needle on a Pernicious Deed game 1 is huge to me.

Also, I don't believe a giant robot is necessarily a better secondary win condition given the matchups we want them for. I won't deny they're strong, because I run Wurmcoil myself, but ThopterSword accomplishes a lot and gives the deck great flexibility. Sure, you can hardcast a robot on turn 3 or so, but that doesn't mean you still aren't vulnerable to Swords. Hell, Jace owns both of them as well. They're just much more vulnerable. Although it's slightly more difficult to pull off, ThopterSword is insane in pretty much every matchup. You do have Transmute to help supplement that. On top of it making it easier to find them, ThopterSword is at least better to dump off Transmute. It's just won far too many games for me to write off, and it's not an issue of testing one or the other, because Wurmcoil is in my deck, but as someone who has access to both of them, I'll say that ThopterSword is definitely the ideal alternative win condition for the deck. Sure, Sword of the Meek is rather weak on its own, but Thopter Foundry pulls it's weight admirably. It's synergy with Goblin Welder is incredible, and it's great for stalling aggro. Not to mention it's easily castable turn 2 and pitches to FoW. Robots are great if you can get them in early, but I've had several occasions where I'd be stuck with them in hand because my manabase is disrupted.

ivanpei
06-05-2011, 07:22 PM
@ keys, how goes the grim-transmute list? Ive only found it worth running if I run 4 transmutes and 1-2 intuitions. What I missed was intuition's double tutoring (with welder) and intuitions straight 1 for 1 instead of a 2 for 1 like transmute. I found that the transmute version is sometimes really good say against goblins, folk or anything without plow/jace/path because wurmcoil just smashes face and is really easy to grab of transmute or to hard cast. However I get pawned by the blue decks with white removal because transmute is card disadvantage and rfg/bounce makes wurmcoil a sad panda.

keys
06-06-2011, 02:35 PM
You're right that Transmute does not grab both combo pieces, that's why I think it's wrong to play less than 4 of Painter/Gridnstone in a Transmute deck. The goal is to find one of the 8 cards with Top and Brainstorm, and then Transmute to get the other half.

This deck should never lose to Merfolk. They just don't have enough removal to deal with Welder and Painter, and blasts own them. Goblins can be more difficult, because they have Weirdings/Incinerators and artifact hate post-board, and blasts are dead. But it's still a favorable matchup.

I wouldn't go for the secondary win condition in either of these matchups, unless something like Needle makes it necessary (this is the biggest reason for playing a secondary win con like Wurmcoil maindeck). It should be noted that Needle hoses Thopter Foundry, too.

Also, Battlesphere doesn't lose to Jace.

Pook and Pie
06-06-2011, 07:47 PM
Hi there. This is actually my first post on The Source. >_>;

I've been playing U/B Painter for a long time now (I put it together immediately after Shadowmoor's release because I'm weird and play rogue-ish tier 2 decks in legacy), and I've been wanting to update it.

My old list was essentially this, which is nearly three years old: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/2976

Mine had random Stiflenaught as backup, but still. Various things in the meta game are making this really hard to play now, though, and Goblin Welder looks like the obvious inclusion to get around my problems.

A good portion of the cards to improve it (by that I mean switching to U/b/R), though, are ones I don't have at the moment. I've got the Volcanic Islands to include red, but I'll be adding Goblin Welder, Transmute Artifact and Intuition to the build shortly. I was wanting to get some insight before I made the huge splurge, lol.

My U/B list was essentially a Counterbalance list with Painter's Grindstone thrown in plus Dark Confidant. <_<;

I was wondering how something like this would fare:

4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant

4x Brainstorm
3x Transmute Artifact
4x Intuition
4x Force of Will

4x Counterbalance

4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ensnaring Bridge

I've still got to squeeze 3-4x Mental Misstep in there somehow, too. lol. I'm having a debate about whether or not to include Trinket Mage, but Intuition and Transmute hit everything whereas the other does not. Should I include a single Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg? I don't really recall having that big of a problem with Landstill that Powder Keg was necessary with my old deck (as it's biggest advantage is that it can destroy animated lands while Ratchet Bomb can't), so I can't imagine this one having a bad matchup there either.

Anyway, should I ditch Counterbalance for Mox Opal and a single Lion's Eye Diamond? I realize this one would go much slower, but my meta is full of Storm (I'm of the few that still has to play against Solidarity). I'd be dropping around $300+ to finish this off, so any feedback from people more experienced with red would help.

Whippoorwill
06-07-2011, 04:29 AM
I would drop the Counterbalances since the deck is more focused on the combo than controlling the game. I would go with Di's version since its quite similar and works well. And if Storm is the most commonly played in your area, you could just add more Canonists to the board.

PanderAlexander
06-07-2011, 07:19 AM
I cost myself the Top8 of a Mox tournament this past weekend. I was playing against a good Junk player(who made Top8) and I'm down to 2 life staring down a lethal board, I have Top, Painter, and 4 lands and a Opal in play. During my upkeep I top in to Transmute Artifact, Welder, and Ancient Tomb and I concede thinking I can get Grindstone but don't have the mana to activate. I look at my fourth card after conceding and it's the one-of LED!!! I ask my opponent did he have a removal in his hand and he said no. What I could have done was drawn the Transmute Artifact, use Top to move the LED(which is the third card after drawing Transmute) on top then tap Top to draw it. With three mana left I would Transmute my Opal in to a Grindstone and activate with LED. I had never experienced tilt before, and needless to say I was very tilted after that with my hands shaking. It was a good lesson for me, to never concede until I'm 100% dead. But I bring that situation up on here to show just how powerful the deck can be, with a empty hand and the opponent having a ridiculously overwhelming board position I had the chance to just outright win.

One thing I wanted to mentioned that many of you already know is what a hurting Pernicious Deed is. Out of six rounds and 60 people, I went up against the only three BUG Landstill/Still-less that was there and the previously mentioned Junk. All four of those decks ran Pernicious Deed and what a beating that card is, I regretted removing the Pithing Needles from the board. BUG Landstill/Still-less is such a beating, every card is either counters or creature kill along with cantrips to dig for them and bombs in Pernicious and Jace. The first two BUG Landstill players I beat 2-0 barely, in one of the games fighting against two Deed activations and still winning. The key was I rarely put down artifact mana, instead Brainstorming them away, and 4x Blood Moon from the board helped G2s. The third BUG Landstill player, I lost 0-2, G1 I had a strong hand I couldn't let go of but it only had artifact lands, after a huge counterwar over a Deed I was left with nothing. G2 he had waste-loam-lock turn two before I could cast Blood Moon. I was expecting a lot of wastelands so I removed a Volcanic for another basic Island which helped a lot, getting red when I needed it was never a problem. Also Spellskite made Burn easy.




Anyway, should I ditch Counterbalance for Mox Opal and a single Lion's Eye Diamond? I realize this one would go much slower, but my meta is full of Storm (I'm of the few that still has to play against Solidarity). I'd be dropping around $300+ to finish this off, so any feedback from people more experienced with red would help.

I had tested extensively with Counterbalance maindeck and sideboard, even building the combo around it and it just doesn't work as well. The past year I've built and played mono-r Imperial Painter, NL-Painter, UWR Bomberman-Painter, and I'd say the current UR version is the best.

(nameless one)
06-07-2011, 08:24 AM
Hey Di,

How is your toolbox build working for you (the one with ThopterSwords combo)? Also is anyone still doing a MUD sideboard hybrid?

Also, I was thinking instead of LED, if Grim Monoliths can be use since you don't have to discard your combo protection and it can be used as a Transmute Artifact target to fetch something like Wurmcoil.

TheProfessor
06-07-2011, 08:45 AM
@PanderAlexander -- Sorry what is "tilt"? But yeah I can totally relate to that experience. Did a blind draw with a top into my 1 of LED to win a critical game. What list you use on that day?

@Pook & Pie -- If your planning on building your deck with more than 2X transmute artifact then i would suggest you follow Di's deck. His design interacts more with the rest of the pieces of the deck. If you really wish to use counter balance i would suggest the following Noham Maubert Deck Variant (bazzar of moxen), and do a little updating on it :D (add mental missteps etc.)

@Ivanpei-- Dude it was totaly awesome meeting you man!! Your alters are CRAZY NICE. I cant believe I met you, such a tiny world. Did you know I totally forgot what I was suppose to look for after looking at your binder? Failed to get myself some transmute artifacts cuz I forgot haha You got sources @ your area for that card?

@Patrunkenphat7 -- Dude totally sorry for not replying to your messages!! Was out of the country and did not bring my laptop (ask Ivanpei lol).

What do you guys think about adding a section in the Primer for SB choices and its MB replacements? Or is that too much information that might be detrimental for us players in general? If you guys are okay i'll probably post a list of decks and you guys give me suggestions on SB choices for them that way I'll compile our community knowledge and "summarize" it.

SB Options: (example)

BURN
Spellskite -- Usual slot replacements are: Trinket mages/Pyroblasts

BUG/LANDSTILL
Blood Moon --Usual slot replacements are: ...

Norm
06-07-2011, 09:37 AM
How do you guys handle the Zoo/Maverick matchups? I've found that these spot removal heavy decks are nearly impossible to beat, especially post-board.

Di
06-07-2011, 10:14 AM
One thing I wanted to mentioned that many of you already know is what a hurting Pernicious Deed is. Out of six rounds and 60 people, I went up against the only three BUG Landstill/Still-less that was there and the previously mentioned Junk. All four of those decks ran Pernicious Deed and what a beating that card is, I regretted removing the Pithing Needles from the board. BUG Landstill/Still-less is such a beating, every card is either counters or creature kill along with cantrips to dig for them and bombs in Pernicious and Jace. The first two BUG Landstill players I beat 2-0 barely, in one of the games fighting against two Deed activations and still winning. The key was I rarely put down artifact mana, instead Brainstorming them away, and 4x Blood Moon from the board helped G2s. The third BUG Landstill player, I lost 0-2, G1 I had a strong hand I couldn't let go of but it only had artifact lands, after a huge counterwar over a Deed I was left with nothing. G2 he had waste-loam-lock turn two before I could cast Blood Moon. I was expecting a lot of wastelands so I removed a Volcanic for another basic Island which helped a lot, getting red when I needed it was never a problem. Also Spellskite made Burn easy.

This is essentially the sole reason why I'm still running Trinket Mage over Intuition, and a singleton Pithing Needle maindeck. Trinket Mage is a decent tutor, and granted Intuition is stronger, but having the option of fetching a Needle against shit like Pernicious Deed is huge game 1, because that matchup is so difficult it's worth losing the slight amount of consistency (for me, it's running one less Painter/Stone) in order to have a stronger fighting chance against decks with Deed. The deck has enough search and tutoring for consistency that I feel the addition of Needle and access to it makes it worth its slot. Pernicious Deed is just such a blowout for the deck that it's worth having a means to stop it. Or at the very least, have access to them out of the board. It's pretty much required at this point.

And thank God someone else has liked Spellskite. It has turned matchups like Burn completely upside-down.


Hey Di,

How is your toolbox build working for you (the one with ThopterSwords combo)? Also is anyone still doing a MUD sideboard hybrid?

Also, I was thinking instead of LED, if Grim Monoliths can be use since you don't have to discard your combo protection and it can be used as a Transmute Artifact target to fetch something like Wurmcoil.

It's working very well. I feel it has the most flexibility out of any of the Painter lists out there due to it's variety of win conditions. Running the full set of Transmute Artifacts is great for the toolbox and keeps the deck incredibly consistent, although I am gunning towards fitting a 3rd Sensei's Divining Top into the deck to make it moreso. Having access to something like Ensnaring Bridge game 1 is awesome, as many decks can't win through it, or at least can't very easily. My build of the deck also has a lot of outs in bad matchups that many lists do not, which is nice. That's essentially seen just by looking at the decklist, though.

The last ~4 pages or so gloss over Grim Monolith and Transmute Artifact, so if you read that then you'll get some insight into builds utilizing Transmute Artifact have shifted to Grim Monolith over LED, or at least have reduced LED to a singleton. The non-Transmute/Intuition builds have shifted towards only 1 LED maximum, because the deck can afford to slow down now thanks to additional protection. Otherwise, there isn't much benefit to running Grim Monolith. If you're playing an Intuition-based build, it's slower than LED and can't do tricks with Welder as well, and the primary reason it's run in Transmute builds is because it's a good mana source that happens to be an ideal dump for Transmute Artifact. Given that LED is really only seeing play as a singleton in essentially both builds, it doesn't make sense for an Intuition-based build to make the switch, and the Transmute builds already run them anyway.


How do you guys handle the Zoo/Maverick matchups? I've found that these spot removal heavy decks are nearly impossible to beat, especially post-board.

Zoo can be a difficult matchup due to their high amount of spot removal, but it's not impossible. It really depends on the Painter build though. I feel my own build (seen on the previous page) has a better chance against Zoo because it has access to ThopterSword, Ensnaring Bridge, and Pithing Needle on Pridemage game 1, all of which help tremendously. If you're running a more traditional Painter list it is much more difficult, and you essentially need to sit on multiple Missteps/Blasts to protect Painter.

The best card for sideboarding against Zoo is Spellskite, which I've recently realized is insane. It will not only divert all removal towards it, but it at least will block Nacatl's and lone Pridemages and such. It's pretty awesome. I'd also board Needles to handle Pridemage and possibly Lavamancers if you're more worried about Welders being picked off. Needle combined with Ensnaring Bridge can act as a sort of lock as well if you can keep your hand low and force them to either burn you out or find Krosan Grip. Wurmcoil Engine is also pretty ridiculous in this matchup if it doesn't get hit with Path to Exile, although Intuition builds have difficulty getting it into play. This is also one of the few matchups that I consider keeping most of my Force of Wills in, because many times they will be banking on a single Pridemage or removal spell, and having that many outs to stop them can be huge.

I'm surprised you'd have difficulty with a matchup like Maverick though. The fact that they don't have red or blue in their deck makes them incredibly vulnerable to us. They only have Swords and Pridemage as removal, and Pridemage generally is only run as a 2-3of, but they do have Wastelands. Still, their clock is much slower than Zoo's, and they don't have near as much spot removal. If you stick a Goblin Welder against them then you're essentially free to wreck havoc on them. I've pretty much never been worried about playing against this deck at all because of this.

If you're that worried about Maverick, then boarding in Spellskite and Needle is likely the best case scenario. Spellskite will block and also soak up a removal spell, and Needle will shut down either Pridemage or Wasteland. Otherwise they don't really have much that can stop you when you still have Force and Misstep.

Raviv
06-07-2011, 03:48 PM
hey there,

i played this deck online with cockatrice a few times and it's so much fun to play it.

i really would like to pick this up irl (besides the inexpensive stuff, i only have to get the stones, the LED and the transmute artifacts yet), but i'am still wondering, whether this deck is only strong, because it is not popular (yet).

your opponents only have to waste one sideboard slot (emrakul, gaea's blessing and so on) to turn our two card combo into a three card combo. if you compare this to dredge vs. grave hate, "painter hate" seems to be much more reliable, because you don't even have to draw the hate. and normally there is a huge difference in consistency between a three and a two card combo.

or is the combo still consistent enough? for example, welder with two activations and an intuition pile like painter, stone, crypt is still a two card combo.

maybe it is also possible, that this deck will never get popular enough, due to it's "complexity", to be hated by emrakul one offs in the sideboards? for example, despite the banning of mystical, ANT seems still to be a very powerful deck, but barely anybody plays it anymore, because it seems to be much more difficult to play it properly now.

what do you think?

PanderAlexander
06-07-2011, 03:58 PM
This is essentially the sole reason why I'm still running Trinket Mage over Intuition, and a singleton Pithing Needle maindeck. Trinket Mage is a decent tutor, and granted Intuition is stronger, but having the option of fetching a Needle against shit like Pernicious Deed is huge game 1, because that matchup is so difficult it's worth losing the slight amount of consistency (for me, it's running one less Painter/Stone) in order to have a stronger fighting chance against decks with Deed. The deck has enough search and tutoring for consistency that I feel the addition of Needle and access to it makes it worth its slot. Pernicious Deed is just such a blowout for the deck that it's worth having a means to stop it. Or at the very least, have access to them out of the board. It's pretty much required at this point.

I think I may return back to the Trinket Mages as well. Out of those 3 BUGstill decks, two of them ran four Pernicious Deeds maindeck, it was brutal. It lets me free up a precious sideboard slot since with them I can go down a GY hate.


@PanderAlexander -- Sorry what is "tilt"? But yeah I can totally relate to that experience. Did a blind draw with a top into my 1 of LED to win a critical game. What list you use on that day?

A term mostly used in poker, when a players lets their emotions cloud their judgment after something bad or frustrating happens, it's called going "on tilt."

I ran the typical list but with -1 Ancient Tomb -1 Volcanic for +1 Island and +1 Transmute. Also I ran the full set of Mental Missteps which were MVP all day. I also kept some red blasts in the main which won me a G1 against some Deadguy Ale variant that ran True Believer and Mother of Runes main deck. This was the first time I played the deck in a tournament since Mental Misstep came out and I noticed the immediate impact of that card, it has made the deck much better.

Sloshthedark
06-07-2011, 04:07 PM
@PanderAlexander
Well I'm surprised you topped in the upkeep facing lethal... When I first picked up the deck I was sooo impressed how it supports absolutely insane plays, and found these situations common, it's always in the 3rd card ; )

UBG landstill - in my testing (Bom5 version), I'm faster and if they tap out early they're dead, funny how Jace is the worst card in the deck, one the other hand Deeds resolved with 1 open mana is 60% GG; I don't play Bloodmoons but with needles its not fun against a skilled opponent


@TheProfessor
Nice idea but you have to make standardized decklist and sideboarding is always about feeling and players needs in the game I don't think it can be generalized; but some SB options list and basic use can be handy


@Di
Maverick can be somehow problematic especially with black splash for Confidants, builds may vary but I've met problems like Mother of Runes - Revoker, Extirpate, Enlightened tutor package with Needles and Serenity

@Raviv
you're right it's definitely bad for the deck itself to be popular, I don't think people will have Emrakul in SB but may include Gaea's Blessing as it actually does something, in fact I faced this situation last Friday in a weird-burn-mangara ZOO (!!) deck, I would have killed him all 3 games no matter what he had in hand but... its sad to have your 1st 1st turn kill on-play in a tournament G3.. I kept it just to show him how lame his deck is (I was out of prices anyway losing to BoM NO Show)

PanderAlexander
06-07-2011, 04:18 PM
@PanderAlexander
Well I'm surprised you topped in the upkeep facing lethal... When I first picked up the deck I was sooo impressed how it supports absolutely insane plays, and found these situations common, it's always in the 3rd card ; )

I was tapped out after intuition and casting Painter with that five mana, which also meant fresh cards to look at on top which was my goal since I still had three Grindstones in the library (he Vindicated one). I only had one turn to live so the play I did put me at the highest probability to win next turn out of all the lines of play, which unfortunately wasn't a lot since I had only a 20% chance to draw one of the remaining Grindstones with 40 cards left in the deck and being able to look at the top three. At that point I had ran him off three swords already on my Welders and a prior Painter. So after my untap with 5 mana available my goal was to top during upkeep and hope I had a Grindstone which I could cast and activate. You're right though, having that crucial card be there in time as the third topped card has happened many times times with this deck. For that tournament I originally took out all LEDs but added one last minute, which I forgot when I was going through all the possible lines of play when I topped during upkeep and missed that line of play. Who'd have known after my draw, I would top in to the one-of LED.

Sloshthedark
06-07-2011, 04:37 PM
similar situation happened to me few weeks ago against merfolk, facing lethal I needed to draw a 2 card combination to win/lose in my last card - brainstorm and instead of LED and Grindstone I found Tomb and forgotten Ensnaring bridge =) ...well the deck is full of surprises

TheProfessor
06-08-2011, 12:45 AM
@sloshthedark -- Oh! right you are absolutely correct there. I'll list some down now and you guys tell me what type of meta it should be prepared for :D That way first time people using this deck can have a general idea on what to bring along as SB options i guess?

Jace is the worst card in landstill? Really? Always thought that card was the main kill condition?

PS. What is the difference between Czech and Russian? Please excuse my ignorance I'm not trying to be racist or anything. I am just curious.. and that usually comes out wrong :p

@PanderAlexander -- OOHH thank you for that. Learned something today. Did you still play MD misdirections?

@Raviv -- I agree with sloshthedark. Personally I feel that this deck does so well in tournaments is because of the "surprise factor". In many cases when I play people always assumed i was playing Sneakshow or Hivemind in the first 2-3 turns when you have just an island and a tomb in play. However I am not saying that the deck is weak in anyway. It is a powerful deck that is consistent, efficient, and flexible (or i would not write its primer lol). As a testament to its flexibility look at Di's deck, same idea but different "body".

@Di -- I really really want to call your deck the "Painted Die" lol Transmuting for 1-6 costing items :D Sorry just something in the back of my head i wanted to say :p

@Namelessone-- Hi nameless!! Saw your name alot in the Quinn boards. Welcome man :D Yeah we can discuss MUD type hybrids. I'm sure everyone here can suggest stuff. But Di would have the most experience in that particular field :D His list (personally I have not yet tried it) based on the theoretical interactions of each card with one another seems like the best build so far. (as he has extensively used it in tourneys and tweaked it according to his meta)


Hey Guys please provide me your opinions on various SB possible cards (+ optimal # of pcs) given the meta decks below:
*I took these decks in reference to the last few big tourneys. Of course there will be decks we cannot prepare for but these below are some of the decks that have done significantly well in the past few months.
*You may also include "tips" on how to combat that particular deck.

Example:

Merfolk:
Red/Pyro Blasts -- Great against everything blue
Llwan Cephalid Empress -- Once this one drops there is nothing fish can do to you.


Affinity:

Team America:

Dredge:

Junk:

Counter Top
Var1: Stifle Naught
Var2: BUG
Var3: Thopters
Var4: U/W/R

Land Still
Var1: U/W (Forge Still)
Var2: BUG

NO Bant
Var1: Bant only

Deadguy Ale:

Supreme Blue/Blue Skies (MonoBlue control):

Sneak/Show:

Hive Mind:

Eldrazi Post:

Ad Nauseum:

Belcher:

BANT/ANT:


Care to suggest guys? :D

Whippoorwill
06-08-2011, 02:00 AM
Hey Guys please provide me your opinions on various SB possible cards (+ optimal # of pcs) given the meta decks below:

Based on what others have listed and some personal ideas:

Merfolk:
Red/Pyro Blasts -- Great against everything blue
Llawan Cephalid Empress -- Once this one drops there is nothing fish can do to you.
Ensnaring Bridge - Same as Llawan. Echoing Truth is generally their only out. Can also be Welded in if countered.

Affinity:
Energy Flux -- Game over for them. Hurts us as well, but we can still survive and go off with it on board.

Team America:
Blood Moon -- Most lists aren't running any basics.
Pithing Needle -- Main way to stop Pernicious Deed
Spellskite -- Helps to screw up their removal and protect your combo pieces.
Misdirection/Divert -- Redirect their Hymns/Thoughtseizes/Counters/Removal to benefit you.

Dredge:
Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb -- Usual graveyard hard.

Junk:
Spellskite -- Helps to screw up their removal and protect your combo pieces.

Sneak/Show:
Ensnaring Bridge

Ad Nauseum:
Ethersworn Canonist

Belcher:
Ethersworn Canonist

kingtk3
06-08-2011, 04:23 AM
...
Belcher:
Ethersworn Canonist

I'd say that against Goblin CharBelcher spellskite can redirect the activation on itself, or Am I wrong?
If it works it should be a complement to Canonist, which is good against the Empty the warren plan.

Sloshthedark
06-08-2011, 05:55 AM
@Professor - Jace certainly is not, but the BoM version has more Counterspells instead of Spellsnares, so the Landstill player as to have at least 2 free counterspells when he taps out as lot of times he is dead to the combo next turn so the Jace ends up in FoW most time =D

geographical, cultural and historical; its OK, its the same like Philippines and Thailand may appear the same to me but may have certain differences which I'm not aware of, living on the other side of the planet, lets say Czechs don't like them



Affinity:
REB
Ensnaring Bridge

-counter or destroy something - than weld
-be faster, don't let Plating hit the board
-watch out for Galvanic blast


Team America
Show and tell - Emrakul, Inkwell Leviathan
Divert
Misdirection
Bloodmoon
Pithing Needle (Deeds, EE)

-name black
-watch out for Extirpate, Deeds and EE


Dredge:
REB
Tormod's Crypt
Nihil Spellbomb

-counter outlets, good matchup anyway
-watch out for leyline of sanctity


Junk
Show and tell - Emrakul
Divert
Misdirection
Bloodmoon
Spellskite
Pithing Needle (Deeds, EE)


Counter Top
REB
not enough experience with variants, generally Welder is essential

Land Still
Var1: U/W (Forge Still)
Var2: BUG
Pithing Needle (deeds)
REB
Bloodmoon

NO Bant
Var1: Bant only
both - pithing Needle (pridemage)
Spellskite


Deadguy Ale:
Show and tell - Emrakul
REB
Divert
Misdirection


Supreme Blue/Blue Skies (MonoBlue control):
REB
Pithing Needle (jace)

Sneak/Show:
Pithing Needle
Ensnaring Bridge
Phyrexian Metamorph
Emrakul

-my tech is to establish Ensnaring Bridge and kill them with Leviathan =), otherwise multi-welder action may make it


Hive Mind:
never played against one

Eldrazi Post:
never played against one

Ad Nauseum:
REB
Tormod's Crypt

- depending on hand, counter cantrips or develop position, but definitely you are the Control in the game, Intuition and Top is excellent


Belcher:
counter key spells - mana generators
Pithing Needle - Charbelcher


Merfolk:
REB
Ensnaring Bridge

- watch out for Dismember and always save a blast for Energy flux, otherwise its easy
- do not name blue unless you 100% benefit from it


Enchantress
REB
Pithing Needle (sterling grove)

be fast, blasts are essential

Patrunkenphat7
06-08-2011, 10:05 AM
@Sloshthedark: I just wanted to note that naming blue against Merfolk can actually be very important post-sideboard. A lot of them are running Pithing Needles and Revokers, and it would unfortunate to die to those cards with Red Blasts in hand. In this matchup in it better to be safe than sorry in most stages of the game.

ivanpei
06-08-2011, 10:45 AM
I play this board and it's working well for me so far:

2 Pyro (Already have 3 REB MD)
3 Spellskite (Need this vs Zoo/Burn/Heavy Removal)
3 Llawan (Superb with Painter, an alternate wincon that dodges Emrakul/Needle)
3 Pithing Needle (As pander said, you need this card)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Blasts and Needles handle dredge well enough, I'm playing light Gravehate only)
3 Ensnaring Bridge- This card is another awesome anti Zoo card. Buys you a ton of time against them if you can keep it on the table. Also useful against all sorts of Aggro/Creature Strategies. There are some things like Affinity/dredge, that you hard a hard time racing so you need these.

2 Bridges could be Misdirection if you see alot of discard. The Professor suggested it to me and it seems very effective against Hymm to tourach/Thoughtseize/Opposing counterspells. Sorry dude, I can't even get my own transmutes. I only have 1 so far. That card is deceptively hard to find!

TheProfessor
06-09-2011, 01:08 AM
Thanks for the info guys. Please keep them coming. All your inputs WILL be taken into account and put together :D I'll summarize and come up with a more comprehensive "SB" option section in the Primer to help people pick their SB choices. Using the newest U/R Painter variant by Wilson Hunter (Patrunkenphat7), and probably make a "mini" version of SB list (pocket handy? lol)

@sloshthedark -- Oh sorry i just re-read your post you had UBG landstill I interpreted it as U/W. Missed that info when i gleaned over your post. But yes, you are absolutely correct on the jace thing. Totally understand the Czech and Russian differentiation now thank you!! (learned something new today again). I will also apologize for my generalization. By the way I was chatting with a Czech guy on e-bay and he told me that their legacy staples are much cheaper? any truth to this? By the way have you tested your deck with Transmute artifact?

@Patrunkenphat7-- Dude just saw your "premium" article on SCG nice work man :D We can discuss the SB choices here? :D Also I apologize for the late replies, I have been quite busy these past few days and have not really had time to look at my mails @source. Apologies man :(

@Ivanpei -- I actually got myself some bridges while I was looking around the GP (good think we talked about a little painter tech while i met you or else i would have totally forgotten about getting them) :D I also found a Transmute artifact but the guy was TOTALLY ripping me off... the card looked like it came out of a crapper and he was still selling it to me at 32dollars (singapore). I wanted to grab a pencil and stab the fool with it.... ~.~

By the way guys Ivanpei's alterations are beautiful, i've seen it myself and I can honestly tell you that they are truly pieces you can appreciate. Oh question man. You write articles? and do you do comissions (ART)? (lol)

Maybe a little off topic but does anybody do commander here? :D (sorta liking the concept and might branch myself into that haha) Sadly painter is banned in commander :*(

Sloshthedark
06-09-2011, 04:09 PM
@Patrunkenphat7 - haven't met those yet just dismember and all the other stuff is blue anyway

@TheProfessor - sometimes cheaper sometimes not, it depends on the exchange ratio and such, maybe a bit in general ,you still can get most of the older cards cheaper on the ebay;
I have only 1 TA, prox tested 1 and 2 and found the card disadvantage crippling and CC too demanding, late game its all-star for sure but however I really love the card my decklist is more combo-speed oriented and it simply does not fit

deadlock
06-09-2011, 05:38 PM
For those of you who enjoy Needle in the main and want to go without Trinket Mage: Isnt it always a possibility to Intuition up 2 Welder and the Needle or 1 Needle, 1 Welder and 1 Academy ruins if you run it? This is slower and more vulnerable than Trinket Mage, but Inution is stronger in general. Just a thought.

Also I like how people adapt to running Spellkite, I play it currently in by Blue MUD board.

(nameless one)
06-09-2011, 09:28 PM
@ Di

How does you list look like post MMisstep?

keys
06-09-2011, 09:53 PM
@ Di

How does you list look like post MMisstep?

This is the second time you've posted a question that you could easily answer by reading a few pages back. This thread isn't very long.

(nameless one)
06-09-2011, 10:52 PM
This is the second time you've posted a question that you could easily answer by reading a few pages back. This thread isn't very long.

Yup, I definitely missed it. Found it now though.

ivanpei
06-12-2011, 03:44 AM
Thanks man. :) I'm weird, as in I like very different things In Magic. The competitive part of me brews evil, ultra competitive decklists. I write articles when I feel like I have some new tech or have some thoughts on the meta. I got into altering because of Jason chan honestly. He came to gp kl and doodled on my foil jaces. I thought they were awesome so I started with a 5 dollar set of acryllics for fun. They turned out well so I bought myself some Better paints and thinner brushes. Took off from there. :)

As for edh, it's an awesome format. I advise building 2 decks, one multiplayer casual and one for competitive. If you want to win in edh 1vs1 check out my zur deck on the source's edh forum. Oh and I ended up buying the mishra's workshop for my sharuum edh deck instead of the jap foil brainstorm. Haha, casual format my ass.


Please save this kind of content for PM's please. It's completely off topic. Thanks. -Di

Zefa
06-12-2011, 05:25 PM
Hive Mind is starting to get very popular not just around my area but in major legacy tournaments (scg 5ks etc) as well. Whats our best way to combat this deck? A bunch of REBs?

lorddotm
06-12-2011, 06:43 PM
Hive Mind is starting to get very popular not just around my area but in major legacy tournaments (scg 5ks etc) as well. Whats our best way to combat this deck? A bunch of REBs?

SCG 5ks? Please explain where. Also they are trying to resolve a blue spell. Counter it with your infinite number of blasts or Force.

Zefa
06-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Since gp providence and ellyet's 2nd place finish its been showing up more often at the 5ks. It got a 4th place finish in the 5k in indie and in the coverage today in denver I'm pretty sure there's at least 1 hive mind in the top 8 and another one in the top 16 if not more.

First game seems just unwinnable since they run 3 emrakuls and the next 2 games should be better for us but I guess I run a similar list to Di's where I cut more REBs in favor of spellskites so I don't have that red hate as available to me.

ivanpei
06-13-2011, 02:00 AM
Painter top 16ed with heavy md protection, 0 LEDs. Very similar to my build that I posted a few pages back. Like 1 card different (-1 land, + 1 bridge). I wonder if these people read the source. Anyway I still believe heavy protection, zero LEDs are the way to go.

As for beating hive mind, blasts and the llawan plan works best for me. If you have painter in play you can llawan their emrakul back into their hand. IMO the best way to beat this mu is to board in llawans and go beat down. You have 4 tops so you should be favored in the long game.

Wanderlust
06-13-2011, 03:33 AM
I'm the Painted Stone player who Top 16ed today at SCG Denver. @ivanpei, The Source is awesome, I read it all the time!

Regarding LED - Going for the sheer speed it provides didn't seem like the right call for the meta. I only missed the LEDs against Dredge round 5 - otherwise, I was much happier with the heavier protection.

My list today was:

1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Mental Misstep
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mox Opal
3 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

My matches were:

Round 1: 2-0 against Chalice/Crucible/Jace/Tezz Control (Josh Bingaman)
Round 2: 2-1 against Zoo (Jakson Gardner)
Round 3: 0-2 against UW Control (Nick Spagnolo)
Round 4: 2-0 against Affinity (Gregory Gale)
Round 5: 2-0 against MUC (Dustin Gault)
Round 6: 0-2 against Dredge (Jason Bulkowski)
Round 7: 2-1 against NO RUG (Feature match)

There was a lot of Dredge there today and many of the lists had Darksteel Colossus or Guile postboard, specifically for us. Going forward, I would be careful milling a dredge player game 2 without Tormod's Crypt at the ready to remove the shuffler (otherwise you are giving them a turn with their whole library in their graveyard.... yikes.) I was disappointed with my loss to Dredge - I thought it was a favorable matchup. Game one I kept a slow but protection-heavy hand (I didn't know what he was playing) and got rolled the turn before I would have gone off. Game two he dropped Leyline of Sanctity turn 0, nullifying both Tormod's Crypt and Grindstone, and despite digging forever with Welder/Top engine, I couldn't find a Blast. I actually punted this game: he would have been in serious danger of naturally decking himself if I had Weldered out a Painter's Servant to kill 2 of his Bridge from Belows instead of trying to dig for Blasts that turn. I died with him at 3 cards in his library.

The basic mountain main actually mattered a couple times today, as I faced Back to Basics out of MUC and Crucible/Waste lock out of UW Control. The second basic makes it possible to still have three mana active (mountain, island, Mox Opal) under those locks.

Maindeck Ensnaring Bridge didn't matter much today, but I still stand behind it. There are a lot of decks that are cold to that card game 1 (esp. Merfolk) and I love that it adds versatility to Intuition w/ active Welder.

With tighter play, I think every match was in reach today. Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast were MVPs all day. I'm convinced Force of Will is the worst card in the main.

TheProfessor
06-13-2011, 04:25 AM
@ Wanderlust -- Congratulations Wanderlust! You do us grinder boys proud :D lol In a format filled with Hivemind, i wouldnt blame your choice of a MD ensnaring. Although I was a tad surprised at the loss to Dredge, but i guess the Meta is evolving to handle our tricks (i'll read up on the dredge forums later to check up on whats cookin in their kitchen lol).

As for your match with Nick.. well i think he used to be a Painter player too :P soooo i'm pretty sure he did extensive match testing against painter.

Thanks so much for your additions to our forum man :D We'll count on you to keep giving up details :D You think FOW count be reduced? :D

Does this mean we should place 3 diff types of GY hate? Relic, Nihil, Crypt (one each)?

@Ivanpei -- Thank you for the advice. I'll check your EDH deck man :D uh.. pm me the link (sorry DI). Come on man :D Everybody whose tuning their decks HAS to read the source lol Or they'll miss out on wonderful inputs from you and everybody else in this forum :D

PanderAlexander
06-13-2011, 05:06 AM
Congrats Wanderlust, nice work, but as surprised as you about your loss to Dredge.



I'm convinced Force of Will is the worst card in the main.

I agree, but still a necessary evil since we're playing a combo deck and need to force it through.

ivanpei
06-13-2011, 05:36 AM
Oops, sorry pander, I spaced out when reading the names. I forgot Alex Kwan = pander. Great job man!

1 less land no problem at all today? Grats again, you do the painter boys proud. Wish I was in the states so I can get me some large scale legacy action.

Wanderlust
06-14-2011, 02:36 AM
I was happy with 21 lands + 3 Mox Opal. That seemed like plenty of mana sources. In the only game I lost to mana screw, it was my own fault for not mulling a one-lander.

In retrospect, if I had predicted the amount of combo present yesterday, I would have run LEDs over Magus of the Moon in the board.

lordofthepit
06-18-2011, 11:56 PM
Has anyone tried the Bomberman combo in the sideboard without Trinket Mages?

I like being able to pack 4 Mental Missteps and 2 maindeck red Blasts, which means cutting the Trinket Mages and trimming down to 21 lands (which is reasonable without Mage, which is one of the more expensive cards). But without Trinket Mage or Transmute Artifact, can you reliably assemble the alternate win with just 4 Intuition, 4 Top, and 4 Brainstorm?

Sintheros
06-19-2011, 05:41 PM
The problem with the Bomberman combo is that it's 3 cards. 3 card combos are mediocre, especially when you already run a better one.

lordofthepit
06-20-2011, 02:57 AM
The problem with the Bomberman combo is that it's 3 cards. 3 card combos are mediocre, especially when you already run a better one.

Grindstone/Painter's Servant sucks pretty hard against double Progenitus, unfortunately.

The Bomberman combo technically requires three cards, but you win by simply resolving one Auriok Salvager and one Intuition (albeit at sorcery speed). It's very much vulnerable to removal, but you wouldn't be boarding it in against decks with removal.

ivanpei
06-20-2011, 08:21 PM
I just run painter-llawan as my alternate win. Requires less slots and after board you have plenty of reb effects which allow you to play control against emrakul/proggy decks. Don't forget llawan bounces proggy and with painter in play, Emmy too.

Whippoorwill
06-20-2011, 11:15 PM
Grindstone/Painter's Servant sucks pretty hard against double Progenitus, unfortunately.

Its not nearly as bad as it seems. I had to play against NO Rug in 2/4 Rounds last night and went 1-2 and 2-1. If you mill them before they get Progenitus out, they have 1 turn to kill you before they lose which isn't very easy. Blood Moon helps quite a bit if you can land it without them having a Forest or Hierarch.

Another thing I did that could be considered wrong in that match was to board out Forces and name a non-blue color with Painter. They usually board in REB/Pyroblast, so that makes those cards dead and their FoWs dead outside of hardcasting if they left them in.

Edit: The round I lost:

Game 1: I kept a risky hand that had 1 land, Brainstorm, 2x Monolith, Transmute Artifact. I never drew another land. Plus side is that he didn't have any idea what I was playing since I had only played Volcanic Island and Brainstorm.

Game 2: Combo'd out fast.

Game 3: I cast Blood Moon and he had a Misty out and fetched a basic Forest. If he didn't have that I'm confidant I would have won easily as it would have bought be plenty of time to set up the combo. As such, he was able to recover through GSZ > Hierarch > NO the next couple turns.

PanderAlexander
06-20-2011, 11:37 PM
Grindstone/Painter's Servant sucks pretty hard against double Progenitus, unfortunately.

Its not nearly as bad as it seems. I had to play against NO Rug in 2/4 Rounds last night and went 1-2 and 2-1. If you mill them before they get Progenitus out, they have 1 turn to kill you before they lose which isn't very easy

NO Rug doesn't run two Progenitus, almost all of them run one only, which allows us to still win with the combo. The problem lordofthepit was posing is the infinite loop two Progenitus will cause making it impossible to win with the combo. The decks that run more than one Prog is usually Sneak Show or NO Show.

A couple options, is running SB S&T/Emrakul, Bomberman, Ensnaring Bridge, transmute/robot, or like Ivanpei said the painter/llawan lock. None of them are particularly great.

Irenicus
06-21-2011, 02:13 AM
NO Rug doesn't run two Progenitus, almost all of them run one only, which allows us to still win with the combo. The problem lordofthepit was posing is the infinite loop two Progenitus will cause making it impossible to win with the combo. The decks that run more than one Prog is usually Sneak Show or NO Show.

A couple options, is running SB S&T/Emrakul, Bomberman, Ensnaring Bridge, transmute/robot, or like Ivanpei said the painter/llawan lock. None of them are particularly great.

Edit: Never mind. I posted before thinking it through.

lordofthepit
06-21-2011, 04:17 AM
NO Rug doesn't run two Progenitus, almost all of them run one only, which allows us to still win with the combo. The problem lordofthepit was posing is the infinite loop two Progenitus will cause making it impossible to win with the combo. The decks that run more than one Prog is usually Sneak Show or NO Show.

A couple options, is running SB S&T/Emrakul, Bomberman, Ensnaring Bridge, transmute/robot, or like Ivanpei said the painter/llawan lock. None of them are particularly great.

Painter's Servant gets there against most of the format, but obviously, there are a few problem decks:

- Zoo: Too much removal makes relying on a 1/3 body unreliable. Show and Tell into Emrakul is a much better plan, but a lot of Zoo decks have Knight of the Reliquary for Karakas now, especially since this transformational plan is pretty standard tech. Furthermore, there isn't much Zoo played in my metagame (besides myself), and if I'm not playing Zoo, I don't prepare for it since it probably won't get played.
- Sneak and Tell or Show and Tell + Natural Order combo: Painter/Stone will never get there unless they somehow draw 3 of their 4 Progenituses or something. Show and Tell seems extremely awkward against a deck that is better designed to play the combo than you are. Painter/Llawan is okay to bounce their fatties once, but not preemptively since they never cast their creatures anyway. Also, relying on four 1/1s, four 1/3s, and a couple legendary 2/3s to beat down against a combo deck seems miserable, even if we do have better countermagic and card search. Ensnaring Bridge slows them down a little bit, but none of our guys have evasion, so the beatdown plan will only send our dorks into their untapped fatties, but it's our only option if we go this route. Transmute/Robot is more realistic but still gets trumped if they drop a single fatty. I think this is where Bomberman combo is really useful.
- Anything with Emrakul: It's possible to beat Emrakul or Blightsteel Colossus if you have gravehate accessible. However, this turns our win condition into a three-card combo (Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and Crypt/Spellbomb/etc., with Goblin Welder being able to replace any of these conditions). I'd rather just transform into the Bomberman combo which requires us to resolve only two cards (Auriok Salvagers and Intuition), thus freeing up more sideboard space.

Llawan seems interesting and can make the Merfolk matchup even better. (I managed to beat a friend who dropped an Energy Flux that raped 4 of my artifacts on turn 3 because I had the Llawan.) But the Merfolk matchup is already really easy and most of us have a bunch of Red Elemental Blasts to bring in with nothing that weak to take out. It usually seems kind of win-more with Painter's Servant, and in the Progenitus/Emrakul matchups where you really want it, Bomberman is just better.

PanderAlexander
06-21-2011, 05:26 AM
Out of that list, Zoo is really the only scary matchup. Instead of making the deck less consistent against most of the field for just a few bad matchups, just beat them the old fashion way by out-playing those bad matchups.. In SCG L.A. I went up against both NO Show and Sneak Show and beat them both 2-0, it was definitely hard but not all matchups should be easy and those type of decks aren't really popular in the meta currently. Zoo is really the only truely difficult matchup, I playtested against a friend with a crappy value version and even that was extremely difficult. A lot of the ideas thrown out are cute, such as the robot plan maindeck or Bomberman in the sideboard, but just my opinion, unless your meta is full of Progenitus/Emrakul, keeping the deck focused on the core combo with backup bombs in the SB such as Blood Moon, Llawan, and possibly Ensnaring Bridge seems the best route.

So basically all I'm saying is: Changing the deck dramatically by trying to stuff other strategies/combos just for a few bad matchups makes your deck more inconsistent against the majority of the field. If you're unfortunate to go up against one of the rare bad matchups then hope for the best and play accordingly.

lordofthepit
06-21-2011, 07:12 AM
Out of that list, Zoo is really the only scary matchup. Instead of making the deck less consistent against most of the field for just a few bad matchups, just beat them the old fashion way by out-playing those bad matchups.. In SCG L.A. I went up against both NO Show and Sneak Show and beat them both 2-0, it was definitely hard but not all matchups should be easy and those type of decks aren't really popular in the meta currently. Zoo is really the only truely difficult matchup, I playtested against a friend with a crappy value version and even that was extremely difficult. A lot of the ideas thrown out are cute, such as the robot plan maindeck or Bomberman in the sideboard, but just my opinion, unless your meta is full of Progenitus/Emrakul, keeping the deck focused on the core combo with backup bombs in the SB such as Blood Moon, Llawan, and possibly Ensnaring Bridge seems the best route.

Maybe I need to test this deck more against X-and-Show. I've never played it out, but it seems awful in theory. Your 2-0 matches give me some hope, although you're obviously one of the best pilots.

What's your strategy against these types of decks? Beatdown with your 1-power creatures game 1 (as unlikely as it is to get there), and then board into Llawans and more blasts in games 2 and 3? Do you sandbag your Llawans?

lordofthepit
06-21-2011, 07:12 AM
Out of that list, Zoo is really the only scary matchup. Instead of making the deck less consistent against most of the field for just a few bad matchups, just beat them the old fashion way by out-playing those bad matchups.. In SCG L.A. I went up against both NO Show and Sneak Show and beat them both 2-0, it was definitely hard but not all matchups should be easy and those type of decks aren't really popular in the meta currently. Zoo is really the only truely difficult matchup, I playtested against a friend with a crappy value version and even that was extremely difficult. A lot of the ideas thrown out are cute, such as the robot plan maindeck or Bomberman in the sideboard, but just my opinion, unless your meta is full of Progenitus/Emrakul, keeping the deck focused on the core combo with backup bombs in the SB such as Blood Moon, Llawan, and possibly Ensnaring Bridge seems the best route.

Maybe I need to test this deck more against X-and-Show. I've never played it out, but it seems awful in theory. Your 2-0 matches give me some hope, although you're obviously one of the best pilots.

What's your strategy against these types of decks? Beatdown with your 1-power creatures game 1 (as unlikely as it is to get there), and then board into Llawans and more blasts in games 2 and 3? Do you sandbag your Llawans?

Wanderlust
06-21-2011, 08:51 AM
Has anyone tried Tezzeret the Seeker as a different win con in the board? With the amount of artifacts we play, his ultimate will often be lethal. Against Emrakul/Prog, he can immediately find Ensnaring Bridge, which should buy us enough time to draw up to 5 cards and use his ultimate for the knockout blow.

PanderAlexander
06-21-2011, 07:25 PM
@Lordofthepit
I've seen you post in many threads, from Zoo, Maverick, TA, etc and can tell you know legacy very well. Those matchups with multiple prog/emrakul is definitly very hard but is winnable without resorting to another combo and from what I've read from your posts you're definitly capable of doing so. Bottom line I'm saying is, sure stuffing another combo/strategy is going to help against those decks, but how many times are we really going to go up against those in the current meta and doing so makes the deck less consistent against the majority of the meta we will see.

@Wanderlust
Tezz sounds like an amazing idea, I've been wanting to test him out but haven't played Painter-Stone in the past few tournaments. He doesn't demand much space in the deck like other alternate win-cons, probably 1-2 of him. He can search for a combo piece or make 5/5 guys, definitly deserves testing. The only problem I see in "theory" is the deck has no removal and the counters are limited to protect him, we may only get one use before he gets killed off. I'm particularly thinking about him in one of those bad matchups like NO Show that runs many beaters such as goyf.

lordofthepit
06-22-2011, 01:34 AM
Those matchups with multiple prog/emrakul is definitly very hard but is winnable without resorting to another combo and from what I've read from your posts you're definitly capable of doing so.

I just had a "no duh" moment in which I realized that even if multiple Progenituses prevent you from decking your opponent, Game 1 still ends in a draw and you're able to bring in sideboard cards for Games 2, 3, 4, etc. I guess it isn't too difficult to "combo off" and force a draw if you can Crypt away Emrakul, which is actually to our advantage since outright winning is a bit difficult preboard!

Sloshthedark
06-22-2011, 04:48 AM
@Lordofthepit - as you say force draw G1, kill them other games, Welder+ Ensnaring Bridge (and yeah immortal 1/3 ftw) or Phyrexian Metamorph should solve the problem; or needle Sneak attack, counter all S&T

@PanderAlexander - Tezzeret is 5cc guy who most likely survives 1 turn and tinkers something, I can't see any reason why to play 5 mana tutor for Ensnaring bridge.. the time it get played (and maybe countered) you are near-dead anyway since 5 mana was paid for the process you won't combo off

door
06-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Hi everybody. I've been playtesting this deck for several months. Made a couple of top2-top4 finishes in tournaments with 20+ players. The most favourite deck at the moment! =)

Reading this topic eventually pushed me to sharing some thoughts with you guys.

I began playing classic Caleb's list. As mental missteps were printed I moved to +3 MM -1 volcanic -1 REB -1 Trinket leaving original SB. I noticed 2 things:
- Team America with stifles matchup is worse than Zoo which is considered as the worst
- Even when I was siding in the Sh&T-Emrakul combo, I have never won with Emrakul and always regretted that I sided out main combo parts

So I went on changing SB. The first thing I did was throwing away Emrakuls and adding Blood Moons as Team America was indeed an Engineered Plague for me. The second thing was adding Spellskites as a great card against Zoo and Ensnaring Bridges as a weapon of choice against Emrakul decks (Sneaky Show, 12 posts, etc). The bridge is also good agaisnt Dredge, Zoo, Affinity, Merfolks and so on. The SB I am testing at the moment is this:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 to 2 Pithing Needle
2 to 3 Spellskite
3-4 Pyroblast or REB (having 2 maindeck)
0 to 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

the amounts vary depending on the meta (if you have some information of course).
While changing maindeck to -1 Trinket Mage -2 LED, + 1 Transmute Ertifact, + 1 REB, +1 MM after the last changes, I realised that I need a backup plan, whatever it is. I didn't want to return to Emrakuls, mostly because it needs 6 slots in SB and is fragile in the current meta with lots of Vindilion Cliques, Jaces, Innocent Bloods, Karakas' and so on. I don't like Llawan as it only requires StP, or Bolt, or bounce, or smth else and doesn't stop opponent to put Emry/Progenitus with Sneak Attack/Sh'nT and always needs Painter already in play. Moreover it wins slowly and I feel good against Merfolks from the beginning.
I don't like the Auriok Salvagers and the new Tezz, because I feel not wise to change the manabase. So I came to trying either Koth of the Hammer as this one is unexpected and can win quickly. On the other hand Koth is a blunt weapon and performs great with Blood Moon in play which doesn't do much against Sneak Attack (the number one I want a backup plan against). Jace, the Mind Sculptor is much more versatile and doesn't require extra cards to work. The negative thing is that he isn't fast. But playing the +2 ability can significantly slow down the opponent, so Jace's low speed should be compensated.
Unfortunately I don't have enough time at the moment to test Jaces. I am pretty sure with the rest of the SB. What do you guys think about Jaces? The matches I am thinking to play it against are SneakAttack, NO Show, perhaps Landstill control decks.

Also wanted to add that Tezzeret the Seeker looks great as a tool, but the manacost is too high. As a SB plan - may be depending on your meta, but playing in maindeck requires revision of the manabase (returning to 22 lands and perhaps increasing Ancient Tombs/City of Traitors).

Also to lordofthepit:

Another thing I did that could be considered wrong in that match was to board out Forces and name a non-blue color with Painter. They usually board in REB/Pyroblast, so that makes those cards dead and their FoWs dead outside of hardcasting if they left them in.

note that Painter's Servant doesn't completely change the color of cards and permanents but instead makes them the chosen color in addition to other colors they have. So this doesn't shut up opponents' Force of Will and your blue spells are still targetable for their blasts. Prooflink. (http://magiccards.info/query?q=painter%27s+servant&v=card&s=cname)

And a rule question from me: the Painter's ability starts with "as it comes". As means that it is not a triggered ability, nor activated so what kind of ability is it? Can it be still stifled? In what layer is Painter when his ability "triggers"?

phehhh, I think that's all wanted to say at the moment. I would appriciate if you comment on Jace and my questions. And thanks to all of you for sharing your experience here!

p.s. when I have some new techs in mind the first thing I do I come here and check wether someone has already tried it. And how wonderful it is to find that someone is thinking the same way =)

death
06-22-2011, 10:32 AM
"As ~this~ enters the battlefield" is not a triggered ability. It's a replacement effect and therefore can't be stifled.


In what layer is Painter when his ability "triggers"?

Layer 5.
1) copy effects
2) control-changing effects
3) text-changing effects
4) type-changing effects
5) continuous effects, except those that change P/T
6) power/toughness-changing effects

Di
06-22-2011, 12:36 PM
So I went on changing SB. The first thing I did was throwing away Emrakuls and adding Blood Moons as Team America was indeed an Engineered Plague for me. The second thing was adding Spellskites as a great card against Zoo and Ensnaring Bridges as a weapon of choice against Emrakul decks (Sneaky Show, 12 posts, etc). The bridge is also good agaisnt Dredge, Zoo, Affinity, Merfolks and so on. The SB I am testing at the moment is this:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 to 2 Pithing Needle
2 to 3 Spellskite
3-4 Pyroblast or REB (having 2 maindeck)
0 to 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

the amounts vary depending on the meta (if you have some information of course).
While changing maindeck to -1 Trinket Mage -2 LED, + 1 Transmute Ertifact, + 1 REB, +1 MM after the last changes, I realised that I need a backup plan, whatever it is. I didn't want to return to Emrakuls, mostly because it needs 6 slots in SB and is fragile in the current meta with lots of Vindilion Cliques, Jaces, Innocent Bloods, Karakas' and so on. I don't like Llawan as it only requires StP, or Bolt, or bounce, or smth else and doesn't stop opponent to put Emry/Progenitus with Sneak Attack/Sh'nT and always needs Painter already in play. Moreover it wins slowly and I feel good against Merfolks from the beginning.
I don't like the Auriok Salvagers and the new Tezz, because I feel not wise to change the manabase. So I came to trying either Koth of the Hammer as this one is unexpected and can win quickly. On the other hand Koth is a blunt weapon and performs great with Blood Moon in play which doesn't do much against Sneak Attack (the number one I want a backup plan against). Jace, the Mind Sculptor is much more versatile and doesn't require extra cards to work. The negative thing is that he isn't fast. But playing the +2 ability can significantly slow down the opponent, so Jace's low speed should be compensated.
Unfortunately I don't have enough time at the moment to test Jaces. I am pretty sure with the rest of the SB. What do you guys think about Jaces? The matches I am thinking to play it against are SneakAttack, NO Show, perhaps Landstill control decks.

Also wanted to add that Tezzeret the Seeker looks great as a tool, but the manacost is too high. As a SB plan - may be depending on your meta, but playing in maindeck requires revision of the manabase (returning to 22 lands and perhaps increasing Ancient Tombs/City of Traitors).



First off, welcome to The Source.

Secondly, and I suppose this can apply to essentially everyone discussing the topic, is that it seems like many people misunderstand their reasoning behind wanting additional win conditions, as opposed to merely supporting the original better and using sideboard space more wisely. There are a ton of additional combos and win conditions to choose from, and some of them are necessary depending on what you're looking for, but it also greatly depends on why you're trying a secondary win condition in the first place. That's pretty much narrowed down to either:

- You're facing heavy removal through either StP, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc.
- Dealing with hosers like Energy Flux, Null Rod, and to a lesser extent Needle/Revoker.
- Dealing with anti-mill effects like Emrakul, 2x Progenitus, or Gaea's Blessing.
- You're trying to sidestep the opponent's hate cards in anticipation they'll bring in something that messes with your combo (which is going to be among the above).

Now, for all four of these issues, there is very little reason to run additional win conditions when you have answers that should be in your sideboard already. For the first, odds are people have picked up the fact that Spellskite is the stone cold nuts, and that it essentially solves most problems in this issue combined with Mental Misstep, FoW, and REB to a lesser extent. The anomaly here is Pernicious Deed, which is an entirely different can of worms. Our only real out for this is Pithing Needle, which is in most boards anyway, and also shuts down Pridemage and other hate along the way. For the second, you have REB effects to handle Flux, and Null Rod/Needle/Revoker post-Painter. Running artifact removal is also pretty smart currently given how common artifact-based strategies are becoming, so that helps as well if you have Ancient Grudges in your board. For the 3rd, a simple Crypt deals with this, with the exception of 2x Progenitus. However, that comes from a single obscure deck, so this is really the only case where an extra win condition is truly necessary. For both Emrakul and Gaea's Blessing, it's generally easier to add a Crypt to the Painter combo instead of attempting a different combo that the deck isn't geared to use regularly and you wind up with dead Painter cards unless you entirely board them out. It's also worth noting that it's also more logical to also just use something to fight their own combo here like Ensnaring Bridge, which is also good across many matchups.

You could argue with this logic that in the above scenarios, you're essentially turning our two card combo into three by adding support cards, like Crypt or Spellskite. However, these are merely cards that protect and support an existing combo that you've already designed the deck around and have easy access to and synergy with, rather than add an entirely different two/three card combo that doesn't flow as well. It's more practical to find answers to their answers than use something that doesn't work as well with the deck when the original combo works much easier for you, because in an overwhelming majority of situations their hate will be applicable to whatever combo you're trying to use.

So now that I've identified why we wouldn't need an alternative win condition, that doesn't necessarily mean we wouldn't want one. If you can have a win condition that can bypass multiple issues, then it's probably worth looking at. For instance, Show and Tell/Emrakul is the most popular because it technically gets around every one of them, but that unfortunately comes with a number of problems on its own (Karakas, Clique, entirely dead by themselves, etc) and a high number of sideboard slots. That, but it's also limited to builds with 3-4 Intuitions. Not that it's an issue for many Painter players who continue to use the traditional Intuition build, but it does prove that the alternative win conditions are subjective to deck design. For instance, you aren't going to recommend running a Wurmcoil Engine to someone who doesn't run Transmute Artifact/Grim Monolith and without any easy way to cast it; it just doesn't make sense. However, as long as you can identify the core issues the alternate win condition solves, and you can do it within deck design and minimal sideboard slots, it could be worth doing. Another thing to consider is how that win condition could be used in a variety of matchups and give you the most out of your slots. This doesn't work well for something like Bomberman, which not only is a lot of slots, but doesn't handle half the problems the Painter combo itself had, like spot removal and Null Rod/Needle, etc. It's just a poor choice to use something that doesn't have any huge advantages over the other combo in most matchups and uses a lot of slots. Using Wurmcoil Engine as a good example, it's worth using against every aggro or aggro-control deck due to superior stats and lifelink, and any deck playing Null Rod or Emrakul because it bypasses both Null Rod and milling the yard. Granted, this is an extreme case given how much you get out of a single slot, but the point remains. Those extra slots you save can go towards creating room for additional Blood Moons, Ensnaring Bridges, Spellskites, etc.

I'm not going to go through every possible combo and win condition we could use because it's a waste of time and we should all be capable of evaluating them for ourselves, but I figured I'd mention something on Planeswalkers given they're popping up in conversation. The issue I have with Planeswalkers is that we have very little in the way of protecting them, unlike every other deck that uses them. We can't get much value out of them given they are likely going to die the very next turn. That's pretty much applicable to any planeswalker we'd consider except Tezzeret the Seeker. Jace is obviously strong, but we can't really do anything with him like other decks. We can't sit back and fateseal people to death while protecting the board state and killing stuff. We can Brainstorm him, then he will get attacked and die. Unsummoning with him is fine for a turn I guess, but I really have to question what the deck wants to do if it spent it's time playing a 2UU Unsummon when it could be killing the opponent instead. It's slightly better against something with Emrakul, but there are a number of cards that are good against that deck that are likely better for us overall.

Tezzeret the Seeker is interesting because it can easily find combo pieces, protect itself by finding Ensnaring Bridge or Spellskite, and then make an army of 5/5's. And it can accomplish this with only 2-3 slots maximum, which is ideal for an alternate win condition because it gives us the most value out of the slots. However, he costs 5. That's a lot. I only realistically see this guy coming up in builds using Grim Monolith, because Intuition-based builds will not be able to cast it reliably against Wastelands. People can try it otherwise with Ancient Tombs and Opals for acceleration, but it's a bit more difficult, and at that point you have to question if it's worth it or not. However, he does offer enough that it's worth looking into, but I'm wary of that casting cost.

Top Deck
06-22-2011, 11:56 PM
First off, welcome to The Source.

- You're facing heavy removal through either StP, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc.
- Dealing with hosers like Energy Flux, Null Rod, and to a lesser extent Needle/Revoker.
- Dealing with anti-mill effects like Emrakul, 2x Progenitus, or Gaea's Blessing.
- You're trying to sidestep the opponent's hate cards in anticipation they'll bring in something that messes with your combo (which is going to be among the above).


Di i am surprised you didn't run any search aside from playing transmute artifact. i played against you with berserk infect a few weeks ago in grapevine, but i forgot to put into my board deeds and 1 gaea's blessing.

i know your deck has a lot of answers for different problems, but i don't think it is reasonable that a deck can solve every situation. then again when i played you i couldn't draw any of my removal (ie. nature's claim, maelstrom pulse, or beast within to save my life.

Di
06-23-2011, 09:22 AM
Di i am surprised you didn't run any search aside from playing transmute artifact. i played against you with berserk infect a few weeks ago in grapevine, but i forgot to put into my board deeds and 1 gaea's blessing.

i know your deck has a lot of answers for different problems, but i don't think it is reasonable that a deck can solve every situation. then again when i played you i couldn't draw any of my removal (ie. nature's claim, maelstrom pulse, or beast within to save my life.

I also ran 2 Intuitions in the deck that day as well, I just didn't ever see them.

Naturally it isn't possible for a deck to solve every situation. However, there are a certain few that come up more often than others and have higher relevance in the metagame, so that's what I focused on. Given it's more likely you'll run into something I listed than some random issue, it's worth trying to make a game plan around that than something you might see every once in a great while.

door
06-23-2011, 10:15 AM
First off, welcome to The Source.

There are a ton of additional combos and win conditions to choose from, and some of them are necessary depending on what you're looking for, but it also greatly depends on why you're trying a secondary win condition in the first place. That's pretty much narrowed down to either:

- You're facing heavy removal through either StP, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc.
- Dealing with hosers like Energy Flux, Null Rod, and to a lesser extent Needle/Revoker.
- Dealing with anti-mill effects like Emrakul, 2x Progenitus, or Gaea's Blessing.
- You're trying to sidestep the opponent's hate cards in anticipation they'll bring in something that messes with your combo (which is going to be among the above).

Now, for all four of these issues, there is very little reason to run additional win conditions when you have answers that should be in your sideboard already.

Di, thank you for your answer. Your reasoning and the deep understanding of the Painter's deck strategy is superior. I will definitely use these thoughts in future. But I still want to explain my point of view.
As you can see, I'm putting 0 to 2 Jaces in the SB. That means that depending on my Meta I will play either 2 or 0 Jaces. I had information that on the following tournament there would be minimum 2 decks playing multiple Emrakuls and hydras. 20 to 30 players and minimum 2 extreme matchups which is around 10%. In this situation I felt that I needed a backup plan. And as far as I play more classic version without Grim Monoliths I think Jaces would fit best as a backup.
But what you are saying is also true and I will not run any Jaces if the concentration of "extreme" matchups is below 10%. Even if I know there will be lots of Null Rods or white leylines in SBs or Deeds it is easier to just run more blasts or pithing needles.

Whippoorwill
06-23-2011, 07:57 PM
If you're only adding Jace to combat Emrakul, you would be better off with Duplicant. He'll kill off Emrakul permanently (giving you a 15/15 in the process) and can be used for Welder tricks on most other creatures your opponent may play.

Lim-Dul
06-24-2011, 05:57 AM
After the good results of this deck in the SCG-Open i had to try it..

i LOVE it... fast, fun and not easily hated away with Sb...

one big question i still have is my own Sb...one list form the SCG-Open used SnT and Emrakul to switch Win-Con. i am not really convinced with this idea.. and i dont own 4 SnT ...hence i am playing a "normal" Sb:

my deck-list:

Creatures [8]
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

Instants [18]
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Mental Misstep

Artifacts [13]
3 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 LED
1 Ensnering Bridge

Lands [21]
1 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Polluted Delta
3 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island


MY SB:
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
4 REB/Pyroblast
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Ensering Bridge


Decks present at my store (no praticular order) -- my SB slots for this MU:
1x NOBant -- Spellskite, Blood Moon, Bridge ... maybe a bit too much (but it is the deck of a good friend, and i wanna win this MU)
2X Affinity -- Bridge and REB
3x Dreadge -- Crypts
3x Merfolk -- Bridge and REB
2x Gobos -- Spellskite and Bridge
1X Burn -- Spellskite
1x Painterstone -- ?!? maybe REB and Crypts
1x MUC -- REB
1x UW-Landstill -- REB
1x Combo Elfes -- Maybe Bridge, favorable MU anyway
1x Doomsday -- REB and Blood Moon
1x Monoblack Aggro -- Bridge
1x Rock -- Spellskite and Blood Moon
1x Temop-Feries -- REB and BLood Moon

i might have forgotten some of the present decks...all inputs concerning my List/SB and any other MUs are very wellcome..

If someone could let me know what to take out /in for some of the MUs would ne nice.. cause i usually think i know what to bring in from the SB, but i have a hard time to see which is the weakest Card in the MU..

i hope i could make clear what i was asking for, excuse my english..:-)

PanderAlexander
06-24-2011, 07:58 PM
one big question i still have is my own Sb...one list form the SCG-Open used SnT and Emrakul to switch Win-Con. i am not really convinced with this idea.. and i dont own 4 SnT ...hence i am playing a "normal"

Most have gone away from the SnT/Emrakul sideboard as well, so you're not missing out on anything as it was a very clunky idea anyways.

shaka26
06-27-2011, 10:10 AM
Can you help me how to win against "hive mind"?
is it impossible?

Zefa
06-27-2011, 02:38 PM
Game 1 is pretty much impossible unless you have graveyard hate maindeck. Even then, since you're on a 3 card combo you give hive mind plenty of time to set up and kill you as you apply next to no pressure on them. I guess your only hope really would be that they drew all 3 of their emrakuls and you painter/grind them or you beat them down with welder/painter and they have a really bad hand and you counter all their key spells.

Games 2 and 3 depend on your sideboard(blast #s, gy hate #s etc). If you're playing a white splash version of painters, ethersworn cannonist is really good as they can't hivemind/pact on the same turn and you have time to blast their hive mind. Also name black with painter so their slaughter pacts become dead.

Played against a friend who was playing hive mind and I went 1-9 only game I won was b/c he couldn't find a blue source the whole game. Lion's Eyes + welders I found also buy you a lot of time as you can generate a lot of mana to pay for pacts and they can't really go off unless they have multiple pacts.

sloppyjoe
07-03-2011, 01:59 AM
After looking around for a decent deck with FoW in it to splash into paper legacy, I chose this one. I have just finished up building the deck to the point where Iím ready to take into a local tournament, and I have been goldfishing hundreds of games. I have a few points that I was hoping some of the seasoned painted stone veterans can help me with. One is Mulligan strategy and the other is Intuition piles.

First off I thought I would post what my list is looking like atm. Mind you there are a few cards missing due to the fact that I just donít own them yet, as this list contains pretty much 100% of the paper magic I own at the moment. For instance, Iím still looking for a 3rd volcanic, and maybe one more Ancient Tomb.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painterís Servant
2 Trinket mage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Intuition
4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Senseiís Divining Top
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Tormodís Crypt


1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace


3 Spellskite
2 Shattering Spree
3 Meekstone
3 Tormodís Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

So to my first point, I am looking to get some understanding of what hands I should aggressively mulligan into, or what key cards I should not reshuffle etc.

I was looking to try something here if I may. I thought I would draw up a few dummy hands, list them. Note whether I would mulligan, and then perhaps I could get some comments on the process. Maybe some insight on how the strategy would change given being on the play or draw.

I am assuming that each hand is in game one by the way, and I have no knowledge of what my opponent is running aside from general metagame theory.

Hand #1
2 Painters servant
1 Grindstone
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Scalding tarn
1 Mox Opal
1 Trinket Mage

I would keep this hand, even though I have no permission to help protect the combo pieces, there is at least enough mana and enough redundancy to reliably land both pieces.

Hand #2

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Goblin Welder
1 Painters Servant
1 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Great Furnace
1 Mox Opal

Another Hand I would keep. 1 combo piece, a welder, something to dig with, and the mana to pull it off relatively quickly. I think that a fetch would have made the hand alot better though.

Hand #3

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Grindstone
1 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mental Misstep

This hand I would be tempted to ditch, as it looks mana flooded, and doesnít seem too optimal. But Iím thinking that with a misstep I have a good chance of sticking the grindstone t1, and if I draw into a servant I could go off on t2.... potentially. I would probably keep this hand on game one of a match, on the draw for sure.

Hand #4

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Mox Opal
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Grindstone
1 Brainstorm

Tough hand I think with only one land, but with 2 grindstone, and the opal I could have 2 mana sources active on t2. I think that I would probably risk this hand, mainly since I think that the permission is strong, and it has combo pieces. I would ditch this without the grindstones.



Ok so there you go, please feel free to open up the discussion in regards to the best possible plays here, as well as any other mulliganing (made up word methinks) strats that you find pertinent.


My second point of this post involves the strategy behind intuition piles. I will start off by admitting that I have no experience with Intuition at all, as this will be the first time ill be sleeving them up in paper or digital. I do however have some experience with Gifts, which I find to be one of the most tricky cards to play with ever printed.

So to my understanding having a welder online seems to be the main factor that will force your Intuition pile into something other than 3x of a card? As in, without a welder on the table, I should be grabbing 3 combo pieces etc. Are there situations where I might want to include a copy of both combo pieces in my pile without a welder online yet, or perhaps non combo pieces?

With a welder in play, Iím guessing things change and the piles get more difficult per se. With a weldable target in play, Iím assuming that the right call would be to grab grindstone, servant (if neither is in my hand or battlefield) and LED, or crypt if needed etc. I guess Iím looking for some nuanced approaches to using this card to its full potential as I am admittedly, a newb when it comes to actually casting it.

I look to you, oh wise sages of The Source to school me please.

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate it!

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
07-03-2011, 10:01 AM
hands

I'd keep them all, but auto-ship hand #3.

ivanpei
07-03-2011, 10:16 PM
Generally when playing a 2 card combo deck, I keep hands that have both components, a component + some kind of deck manipulation/tutor or a hand with cantrip + tutor. I will not keep any hand that doesn't have at least 2 live cards (component, tutor and cantrips/ top are live cards) assuming its the first mulligan. When you are faced with going down to 5 I keep hands quite liberally in that case.

Agree with the above poster, keep all, ship hand 3.

Zefa
07-04-2011, 12:06 AM
I probably keep hand #3 vs an unknown deck on the draw but I generally have a tendency to not mull aggressively. I'd be very happy to draw servant/brainstorm/intuition/top/mage to get top/welder to work with grindstone. 2 or 3 draw steps to get to one of 20 cards and having misstep to not lose to a random thoughtseize/slowing down the opponent is ok in my book if you're typically someone who leans away from aggressive mulligans.

Lim-Dul
07-06-2011, 05:53 AM
I am having huge problems with a null rod (the Leyline of sanctity) on the board...my only solution (ecxept for FOW) is a REB/Pyroblast and a painter... but with useless Tops it is hard to search for these two cards quick enoughe...

What is your solution to this?

could Chaos Warp from the Commander-Decks be a solution? In the SB or even MB? by the way, why is this card so f***** expensive? where does it get used?

Atwa
07-06-2011, 09:10 AM
I am having huge problems with a null rod (the Leyline of sanctity) on the board...my only solution (ecxept for FOW) is a REB/Pyroblast and a painter... but with useless Tops it is hard to search for these two cards quick enoughe...

What is your solution to this?

could Chaos Warp from the Commander-Decks be a solution? In the SB or even MB? by the way, why is this card so f***** expensive? where does it get used?

I've started to play Repeal in the sideboard. It's a catch all for lots of problem cards. My biggest problem is a guy in the local store playing Dragon Stompy and this deck really hates a turn 1 Chalice set on 1. Repeal gives the flexablilty of a variable CC, so it's a great way to fight Chalice.

Only Null Rod really sucks, shuting down your mana.

Karhumies
07-06-2011, 10:48 AM
My biggest problem is a guy in the local store playing Dragon Stompy and this deck really hates a turn 1 Chalice set on 1. Repeal gives the flexablilty of a variable CC, so it's a great way to fight Chalice.

Um...if you target Chalice (CMC=0 when it is a permanent) with Repeal (X=0, otherwise you miss targetting the Chalice), doesn't that get countered by Chalice set @ 1 because Repeal's CMC is then 1?

I would rather go for Echoing Truth. Or with the SnT SB, you could SnT in the Grindstone FTW against Chalice @ 1.

Against Null Rod: Shattering Spree or similar, any bounce effect, Spell Pierce or similar.

Di
07-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Chaos Warp is okay, but the fact that it could potentially give the opponent a Null Rod again or another bad permanent makes me wary. There are few permanents that we really care about, and most of them can be dealt with easier than with Chaos Warp.

The best answer for Null Rod (and Chalice of the Void) is Ancient Grudge. It's unlikely Chalice will ever be set at two so it won't get countered often, it'll hit Null Rod fine, and there's also a chance you can flash it back with Mox Opal. Grudge is also nuts against the mirror, Affinity, and Stoneforge decks. I suppose you could run Shattering Spree instead, but given it's a sorcery I find it to be much worse, and Grudge is the best instant available.

Wurmcoil Engine is also a terrific way to avoid Null Rod and similar hate like Leyline of Sanctity, but it's really only a viable option for Transmute Artifact lists.


These sideboard options have been discussed a bit a few pages back. I wrote a long-winded post on sideboarding that covers some of this, and I know a handful of others have mentioned stuff on this as well.

lebarion
07-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Karhumies is right; Repeal cannot be used to target a Chalice of the Void set @ 1.

"Repeal
Instant, XU (1)
Return target nonland permanent with converted mana cost X to its owner's hand.
Draw a card"

X must be zero to target the Chalice, hence Repeal's CMC=1, hence it is countered.

(nameless one)
07-13-2011, 11:25 AM
On Chalice of the Void and Shattering Spree:

There are multiple artifacts on the field (including Chalice at one), if I cast Shattering Spree (which will get countered by Chalice), would the replicated copy resolve?

kusumoto
07-13-2011, 12:13 PM
On Chalice of the Void and Shattering Spree:

There are multiple artifacts on the field (including Chalice at one), if I cast Shattering Spree (which will get countered by Chalice), would the replicated copy resolve?

Yes. The copy isn't cast. It's just placed on the stack.

RedElementalBlast
07-18-2011, 03:40 PM
Looks like mono red painter T16 this weekends SGC event.

Hawaii
07-21-2011, 10:42 PM
Yes, if only I could scrounge up 4x Imperial Recruiter I'd be all set...

Whippoorwill
07-23-2011, 11:17 PM
Was going through various cards and came across one that could possibly work in this deck. If its been discussed before, my apologies.

Artificer's Intuition

The card has very limited use and is in the 'danger of doing cool things' zone, but most of the artifacts in the deck can be searched for with it and the discarding works well with Welder.

Example: Pitch Painter to find a Grindstone to complete the combo.

It would probably be best with the Bomberman transition from the board.

Whippoorwill
07-25-2011, 12:22 AM
Went 4-4 at the Seattle Open. 3 of the losses were due to big play errors on my part. I'll type up a report shortly.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21547-SCG-Seattle-Misstepping-with-Painter-Stone&goto=newpost

mulder
07-25-2011, 07:17 PM
I've been utterly unimpressed witht he Blood Moons in the sb. Most decks run enough basics not to be bothered by it, or play mountains themselves or have mana fixers like BoP, Noble Hierarch.
Since i'm having trouble with zoo, wouldn't it be a good idea to replace them with Razormane Masticores to improve the matchup?

Chikenbok
07-26-2011, 02:22 AM
@ Whippoor - Seems like the Swords/Thopter combo came out almost every round, anything you'd replace it with in future tournaments?

Whippoorwill
07-28-2011, 12:05 AM
I've been utterly unimpressed with the Blood Moons in the sb. Most decks run enough basics not to be bothered by it, or play mountains themselves or have mana fixers like BoP, Noble Hierarch.

I've been quite happy with them. Granted there's quite a few decks where you won't want them, but there's also times where it will just win you games. Lots of decks are using high amounts of non-basics right now, so its worth considering.


@ Whippoor - Seems like the Swords/Thopter combo came out almost every round, anything you'd replace it with in future tournaments?

I like the idea of having the combo available as a backup, but it was generally the first thing I cut when Sideboarding. I'll probably cut them for the 2 Spellskites and cut the maindeck Crypt for a Wurmcoil Engine as a backup plan since I can always Entomb it with a Transmute Artifact if I have an active Welder.

Alternately I may add the 4th Misstep in place of the Crypt.

JimmyC27
08-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Hi there,

I was thinking about trying this deck at a local tournament this week. Our metagame is pretty diverse, so I see pretty much everything. I've only seen 1 or 2 Hive Mind decks lately.

I had two questions: 1) what do you sideboard out for the SnT+Emrakul plan? (I realize the debate says this might not be a great SB plan, but I wanted to test it out); and 2) has anyone tried Progenitus over Emrakul to get around Karakas?

I would probably be bringing SnT in against aggro decks like Zoo.


My list for reference:

4 Painter
4 Grindstone
4 Welder

4 FOW
4 Misstep
2 Pyroblast
1 REB

4 Intuition
4 Top
4 Brainstorm

3 Mox Opal
1 LED

21 Lands

SB:

4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 REB
1 Pyroblast



Thanks,

Jimmy

deadlock
08-04-2011, 04:35 PM
Are their any other applications of Sundial besides Hivemind? If not then it would be an extremly narrow choice (related to Whippoorwill decision to run it).
If Hivemind is a huge concern then I would run Stifle, which looks actually an amazing in this deck. Most importantly it can hit Deed, Pridemage and Wasteland. While a one for one on the hand, which doesnt make it a permanent answer, it is a huge tempo boost on the other hand. E.g against Deed, they cast it and lets say, blow it for 1 - thats 4 mana vs our 1 mana. In case of Needle they wouldnt even bother to cast it in many cases. This amplies to Pridemage and Waste too. It may even blow out people if used on a first turn fetch. Not that this is related to the decks strategy, but the tempo boost might be enough to get ahead significantly.

Has someone actually tested Tezzeret, he looks so intriguing with his ability to tutor for both combo pieces and self protecting cards like Bridge, Spellskite or Needle on of the alt win option. The casting of of 5 is the only obstacle in my eyes, still with Opal and Sol lands it might work out okay.

Di
08-04-2011, 05:00 PM
Are their any other applications of Sundial besides Hivemind? If not then it would be an extremly narrow choice (related to Whippoorwill decision to run it).
If Hivemind is a huge concern then I would run Stifle, which looks actually an amazing in this deck. Most importantly it can hit Deed, Pridemage and Wasteland. While a one for one on the hand, which doesnt make it a permanent answer, it is a huge tempo boost on the other hand. E.g against Deed, they cast it and lets say, blow it for 1 - thats 4 mana vs our 1 mana. In case of Needle they wouldnt even bother to cast it in many cases. This amplies to Pridemage and Waste too. It may even blow out people if used on a first turn fetch. Not that this is related to the decks strategy, but the tempo boost might be enough to get ahead significantly.

Has someone actually tested Tezzeret, he looks so intriguing with his ability to tutor for both combo pieces and self protecting cards like Bridge, Spellskite or Needle on of the alt win option. The casting of of 5 is the only obstacle in my eyes, still with Opal and Sol lands it might work out okay.


Sundial's applications are primarily limited to Hive Mind, but it does have the benefit of forcing people to play everything at sorcery speed given people won't want to walk into having things "countered" on your turn from it. Then again, I'd be surprised if it was boarded in against anything but Hive Mind, with the exceptions for rare decks like Stax, Solidarity, etc. That said, it's still the best hate card this deck can use for it. Nobody would argue Stifle's usefulness against Hive Mind or anything else, but I'd prefer Sundial given the synergy it has with the rest of the deck, using it with Welder or Transmute Artifact. Given there's already an answer for permanent-based abilities in Pithing Needle, I don't think it's worth running Stifle in addition to it when there's a better hate card available in Sundial.

As for Tezzeret, I was rather disappointed when I tried him. Even with acceleration I still found him quite difficult to cast consistently, and this is coming from a build running Grim Monolith. In most cases, I'd have to immediately tutor Ensnaring Bridge just to protect him from dying the following turn, and if I got a combo piece instead, he would die the next turn and essentially be nothing better than a 3UU tutor. In matchups that he would live a few turns he was solid, but at that point I'd rather just run more copies of Intuition/Transmute Artifact/Trinket Mage/Thirst for Knowledge/etc simply because they're a lot faster and achieve the same thing.

Whippoorwill
08-19-2011, 02:30 AM
I like the idea of Thirst, so I'll probably try that at some point and see how it goes. It sounds especially nice when you have excess Opals in your hand that you can pitch.

Recently another card crossed my mind as a possible sideboard option based on the current popular decks.

Bribery

With so many people playing Emrakul (either Main or Sideboard) and Progenitus, why not punish them for it? I'm likely going to add 2 of them to my board mainly because of LGS opponents adding Emrakul to their boards just for me. Also works nicely against Reanimator and potentially Dredge (steal their Iona, name Black). I think this would be the best time to try out Thirst as well since I'd only be running 2. I could also cut a Blood Moon in the board since I wouldn't have to worry about Intuitioning for 3.

Edit: Do you think Monolith would be neccessary with this change, or should the basic mana base be ok with just Ancient Tombs and Opals work?

deadlock
08-19-2011, 07:34 AM
Thirst is more a control card than a combo card, but could be very strong in control heavy metas. While not directly comparable, one should notice that Thirst is restricted in Vintage unlike the other choices (disregard as you please). It just feels like casting a Thirst against aggro is a suboptimal move, considering a typical Painter shell. It makes the deck slower, but gives us a way to refill our hand. In my opinion in order to make Thirst work we have to add Ensnaring Bridge (main or side).

Bribery is certainly very interesting, but the 5 mana are quite problematic. Same as Tezzeret I guess, which is a fantastic card besides his mana cost. On the other hand Show and Tell decks and NO Rug doesnt run any mana disruption, so you might pull it off. It is still pretty hefty, as you often want to have Blast mana up as well, which requires 6 mana. This would make it more attractive in a Transmute / Grim build, which already has alt-win options, so this might be overkill. On the other hand we have to look at concrete Transmute targets. Input from someone who has expierence with this build would be nice at this point. Against combo decks Platinum Angel looks pretty solid for example, but its still 4 mana and a Grim to be sacced.
On second thought, Bribery looks pretty powerful, but is more narrow than Tezzeret, which can be used against both combo and control. For example if you side in Bribery against Hivemind, you are not protected against a Pact kill and can just hope kill with Bribery -> Emrakul before he resolves his Hivemind or his own Emrakul. With Tezzeret you can search a Sundial or a Ensnaring Bridge (or both after a couple of turns), depending on what you fear more in the respective situation.
Consider this sample board:
3 Blood Moon
3 Blast
3 Bridge
2 Tezz
1 Needle
1 Sundial
1 Crypt
1 Spellskite
Note thatn you cut away the Tezz package and replace it with other cards, (e.g Misdirection / Spellskite / Stifle), but I think the base configuration of 3 Moon, 3 Blast, 3 Bridge is extremely strong and versatile.

It pretty much boils down on the g2/3 gameplan against problematic decks, do we try to push through the combo at all cost and reinforce it with board cards like Spellskite, together with a suited maindeck like Wilson Hunters GP list OR do we add an alt win with a more Transmute / Grim centric list?
Till now I played with first approach only, which I view as faster, but a little bit more fragile (scoop to two Progeni / Surgical Extraction etc.). Additionally Show and Tell decks really pick up in Germany (two top 8 in one of the biggest german events), so adjusting the deck might be necessary.

Whippoorwill
08-20-2011, 02:41 AM
I agree the 5 mana cost is an issue (for Bribery), but at the same time when an opponent has Emrakul in their deck, the 2 card combo now becomes a 3 card combo since Crypt is now needed. With Bribery it becomes essentially a 1 card combo if you resolve it since they likely won't have creature removal that can kill Emrakul. Progenitus isn't much of a problem since that just gives them 1 turn to win and Progenitus will be in their hand.


Till now I played with first approach only, which I view as faster, but a little bit more fragile (scoop to two Progeni / Surgical Extraction etc.).

Don't scoop to 2x Progenitus, if that comes up the game will be a draw. So no reason to give yourself an unneccessaary loss.

deadlock
08-21-2011, 03:44 AM
I agree the 5 mana cost is an issue (for Bribery), but at the same time when an opponent has Emrakul in their deck, the 2 card combo now becomes a 3 card combo since Crypt is now needed. With Bribery it becomes essentially a 1 card combo if you resolve it since they likely won't have creature removal that can kill Emrakul. Progenitus isn't much of a problem since that just gives them 1 turn to win and Progenitus will be in their hand.

Against Emrakul I often side out combo pieces and try to go for a Welder + Intution play, getting all three combo pieces at once. Problem is if he gets a Leyline out, then its a 4 card combo basically, as you need a Blast as well >.<
What I was trying to say, while Bribery is a 1 card combo, it doesnt interact with their gameplan. They can still cast they own Emra and thus reseting the game state, only that they have have more ways to go off again, or they can simply go for Hivemind.


Don't scoop to 2x Progenitus, if that comes up the game will be a draw. So no reason to give yourself an unneccessaary loss.
You misunderstood me here, I am not concerned about the draw, but about winning. Its just frustrating to try and get a grindstone activation only to find out that they have 2 Progeni or something. Its not a solution to say just draw, you draw in the best case and lose in the worst.

Besides this, do you have any input on a solid list? Did you still use Cryp and the Thopter combo maindeck, which looks a little bit too much imo, as I would prefer to play either cryp or an alt win maindeck, if at all. Speaking off Thopter, how do you like the combo in general? I figured that it is pretty strong together and currently trying to make it work in a deck which is build around it (in the new and develop. forum).

Edit:
Played a standard Painter list in a small local tournament to a 3-2 finish, lost against Stoneblade (partly because of play mistakes) and the mirror, which I find very hard.
Currently as I see it, the Intuition based list is the strongest, but has the most problems with the above mentioned scenarios. Transmute lists have good access to an alt-win, but look slower and weaker in other cases. For that reason I will try to find a good alt win for the Intuition list and will go back to Show and Tell + Emrakul in the worst case (or somebody puts up a strong Transmute list).

lordofthepit
08-28-2011, 12:25 PM
Why did this deck fall off the map? Mental Misstep?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Why did this deck fall off the map? Mental Misstep?

Zoo. Emrakul. Progenitus.

Grymer
08-28-2011, 03:27 PM
Sundial of the Infinite?? pretty good against Emrakul in GY and hive mind

Sloshthedark
09-01-2011, 08:21 AM
browsing result of our local tourney I found an interesting take on Painter of a guy I do not know, taking 4. place of 47 people (+1 round, Top 8 not played I believe), even excluding blue I think it could be most inspiring...

top decklist - http://cernyrytir.cz/index.php3?akce=&ukcl=165&db=clanecky

decklist

4 scalding tarn
4 arid mesa
2 plateau
2 great furnace
3 mountain
3 ancient tomb
1 plains
4 painter's servant
4 goblin welder
3 ethersworn canonist
4 grindstone
4 sensei's diving top
4 enlightened tutor
4 pyroblast
4 red elemental blast
4 mishra's bauble
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
2 gamble
1 lion's eye diamond

side
1 pithing needle
3 tormod's crypt
2 ensnaring bridge
3 shattering spree
3 mindbreak trap
1 phyrexian unlife
2 ricochet trap

deadlock
09-01-2011, 10:31 AM
Interesting for sure, would be nice to get some input from the deck creator though.
My first impression is that it is weaker than the blue build, simply based on card comparision - what this build brings to the table compared to an Intuition based list.

Concretely I dont like the lack of Mox Opal, which is an insane card.
Also completly relying on Blasts seems iffy, as they often do nothing without an Painter and are slower than Mental Misstep and FoW.
He obviously has problems getting Welder online, otherwise he wouldnt run crap like Mishras Bauble. Last concern is that he doesnt have an alternate win condition, so he is completely stuck on Painter, which can makes things really difficult in some cases.
An extended discussion of the list warrants its own thread imo, as I dont want to pollute this thread.

Sloshthedark
09-01-2011, 12:32 PM
Well I never met him, maybe in next two weeks there is another Cup round I haven't been on this one

I does bring more consistency in E-Tutor, enabling effective silver bullets without relying on GY
I love the Canonist idea as a control element, slowing your opponent, simplifying protection in your BIG turn
8 blasts are ok with me

In blue infested meta it seems strong to me, on the other hand the mishra's bauble and tutors each generate card disadvantage, no MM, and Gamble seems inappropriate... and I wonder why phyrexian unlife is in the SB

I think it belong to this thread because the list still strongly incorporates - Painter-Welder interaction - just with different kind of tutors

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
09-06-2011, 11:18 AM
Played this deck to a 5-0 finish getting first place in a 32-person tournament. I beat UB Control, Deadguy Ale, 12-Post, Affinity and Puresteel Paladin. That's pretty much the tournament report right there.

'twas fun.

Here's the list I played. Pretty typical.

21 Land
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Detal
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

9 Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mox Opal
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mindslaver
1 Ensnaring Bridge

15 Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mental Misstep

As for the sideboard, the meta had 3 Dredge decks and 2 Reanimator decks. Probably gonna skip out on the Surgical Extractions next time and throw in Spellskite. Never used Surgical Extraction. Spellskite would have made some of the matchups a lot easier, serving as a blocker and a way to dodge removal without having to use Mental Misstep.

Ask me about Mindslaver.

keys
09-06-2011, 01:47 PM
How do you reliably cast Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
09-06-2011, 05:13 PM
How do you reliably cast Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine?

You don't. I cut them after the tournament.

troopatroop
09-07-2011, 12:55 AM
Snapcaster Mage is the shit. Check this out

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Argivian Find

3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa

I personally believe that Mox Opal is fairly inconsistant. Grim Monolith too. I've always disliked Divining Top in Combo decks, and Snapcaster + Enlightened Tutor is much more to the point for a deck like this. What does everyone think? Argivian Find seems really fun with Snapcaster too :P It might be overkill.

Snapcaster effectively helps you on offense and defense efficiently! Multiple STP's, MM's, and Daze on defense, and Tutors for the win, Argivian Find for recursion, and Brainstorm for the rest of the time. I'm really intrigued by Snapcaster's interaction with Enlightened Tutor, because it's the last 1cc broken tutor in Legacy, and the pieces are both targetable. Aggro decks can't really kill faster than turn 3-4, and this list plays 12 soft counters to buy time. I think abandoning the artifact core with Mox Opal is wise, because it lets you run a more stable manabase, with Daze. I'm thinking the list needs a Lion's Eye Diamond to tutor for, but I also think that it's unsafe to go all-in on it when you might hold FoW and Daze...

keys
09-07-2011, 07:10 PM
Why wouldn't you just play more Argivian Finds instead of Snapcaster Mage? 10 fetches and no Tops?

Swords to Plowshares are unnecessary. Painter doesn't care about any creature not named Phyrexian Revoker. I really dislike white unless you're splashing for Enlightened Tutor and silver bullets, which is questionable. Goblin Welder and red blasts are much more valuable to the deck.

Also, I assume Forsaken City is City of Traitors.

troopatroop
09-07-2011, 07:19 PM
Why wouldn't you just play more Argivian Finds instead of Snapcaster Mage?

Because Snapcaster Mage also has synergy with Enlightened Tutor, STP, Brainstorm, and MM.



10 fetches and no Tops?

People need to get the hell over Sensei's Diving Top in combo. I'd rather cast a Ponder, at least that replaces itself.



Swords to Plowshares are unnecessary. Painter doesn't care about any creature not named Phyrexian Revoker.

The fact that my deck can fit in 3 Swords is what's crazy, and back them up with Snapcasters. There's nothing wrong with playing Combo-Control, and STP is exactly what you want against Zoo for instance. It gives you oodles of time, and is rarely unwanted for me. Revoker and Painter are good examples of why you want it.



I really dislike white unless you're splashing for Enlightened Tutor and silver bullets, which is questionable. Goblin Welder and red blasts are much more valuable to the deck.

Red doesn't give you a reliable way to fetch the combo pieces like Enlightened Tutor. Goblin Welder requires that you play artifacts in play, and none of them are very good, and it all de-stabilizes the deck.
Welder can be amazing, but he's far from necessary. Red Blasts are cool.

I gave a thought to Silver Bullets, but what's actually going to help that deck? An LED? An Ensnaring Bridge? Defense Grid or something? I can't think of many things that are going to be more valuable than just tutoring for the win every time.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
09-07-2011, 07:21 PM
Top + Top + Welder = Profit is awesome...

troopatroop
09-08-2011, 12:02 AM
Top + Top + Welder = Profit is awesome...

Seems cute, but it's cornercase for sure. I think Snapcaster Mage is powerful, because when attempting to cast Grindstone through a Mental Misstep or even 2, you can wait until turn 3 to have MM protection. He pitches to Force of Will when he's clunk as well, and honestly that's a good amount of time. This deck doesnt need to be worrying about Welder tricks, or getting value out of Top, because you can win the game on the spot.

Compare Divining Top to Enlightened Tutor. They're BOTH card disadvantage, but Enlightened Tutor finds exactly what you need. The list I posted is extremely redundant, in that it's extremely focussed on Finding, Protecting, and Recurring the combo pieces. Diving Top is fine in the Mox Opal build, because it gives you easier Metalcraft (which is value!), but I find that whole package a bit dissapointing. Painter-Grindstone isn't married to anything in reality.

sdematt
09-08-2011, 02:14 PM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123760&d=1315454614

Either sweet tech against Painter, or just in case you accidentally mill yourself (I'm talking to you, Whipoorwill :tongue:)

-Matt

Whippoorwill
09-11-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm never going to live that down. :(

I don't think its that good against the UR versions though since most run REB/Pyroblast either main or side. I think its more interesting as an option for us to run.

Sintheros
09-20-2011, 12:52 AM
So, MMS is banned. That essentially re-kills Hive Mind. We can be a deck again. What do we put in MMS' place?